For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

In our Sacred Yes series, we've explored what it means to choose courage, curiosity, and joy in the second half of life. Who better to join than the woman who quietly taught Jen those lessons from the beginning?In this deeply personal episode, Jen calls home from MeCamp to check in with her mom, Jana. Jana was originally supposed to be lakeside in Ontario with Jen this week—until Jen's dad, Larry, discovered that Jana's passport had expired back in April. Instead of catching up by the water, mother and daughter connected remotely. Thankfully, they hit record so we could all benefit from Jana's wisdom.This warm, funny, generation-spanning conversation explores the stories, fears, and freedoms we inherit. Jana reflects on growing up in the '50s and '60s, the cultural scripts that told young women they couldn't quite "make it" on their own, and how her own mother—who died when Jana was just 33—refused to let her carry fear. Jen and Jana trace how that fearlessness rolled down through the family, for better and occasionally for worse.Jana shares insights from 55 years of marriage and raising four resilient children in a home where faith was central and failure was never a dealbreaker. She also discusses her decades as an educator and the joy of discovering new passions after retirement—including the "yeses" she's given herself lately, from traveling with her best friend to opening her own bank account (so she never has to explain a $78 lunch again!).Whether you're navigating an empty nest, caring for aging parents, rebuilding after loss, or wondering what this next chapter holds, this conversation offers the gentle mentoring so many of us wish we could still receive from our own mothers. Because the greatest gift a parent can give isn't certainty—it's the confidence to believe that no matter what happens, you can always get back up and begin again.Thought-Provoking Quotes:"Everybody's been on the ground. Everybody screws up… But while you live with the consequences, you can still just get back up. That doesn't need to define you." — Jana King"We built a solid foundation on faith, but mostly we built it on just loving our kids and giving them a safe harbor." — Jana King"Even if you weren't given that privilege of unconditional love, that doesn't need to define you. You can still step out and be brave." — Jana KingResources Mentioned:Moonshine Grill (Austin, TX) & Kinfolk Cocktail LoungeCommunity First! Village (Jana's post-retirement library project)Good Hang with Amy Poehler PodcastAwake Season QuizConnect with Jen!Website - Instagram - Twitter - Facebook - YouTubeThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

There's a lot of dopey financial advice out there. Jill Schlesinger is here to call it out, answer your questions, break down the financial news that actually matters, and help you manage your money without losing your mind. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, actionable financial guidance about saving, investing, buying a home, managing your career, and deciding how to spend your hard-earned dollars. When it's time to panic, Jill will tell you. When everyone else is panicking and you shouldn't be, Jill will tell you that too. Your money. Your move. Let's go.

Description:What if your biggest breakthrough hasn't happened yet?In this joyful and deeply encouraging conversation, Jen sits down with comedian, author, actress, and beloved storyteller Leanne Morgan to talk about dreams, disappointment, perseverance, and the surprising possibilities waiting for us in midlife.As part of our Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife series, we're bringing back one of our most-loved episodes because Leanne's story embodies everything this season is about: saying yes to possibility, trusting your own timeline, and refusing to believe that life's best chapters belong exclusively to youth.Before sold-out tours, bestselling books, Netflix specials, and national recognition, Leanne spent decades raising children, caring for family, performing in comedy clubs, and quietly holding onto a dream that seemed increasingly unlikely. Then, in her fifties, everything changed.With her trademark humor and warmth, Leanne shares what it was like to keep showing up long after many people would have given up. She reflects on motherhood, caregiving, marriage, becoming a grandmother, and the surprising freedom that comes with getting older.Most of all, she reminds us that there is no expiration date on becoming who we're meant to be.Over this delightful hour, Leanne will regale you with charming hard-won life lessons including:● Why success arriving later can be a gift● The power of perseverance through disappointment● The balancing act of holding dreams, caregiving, and family life all with care● How humor helps us survive hard seasons● Why comparison is a thief of joy● The freedom that comes with embracing your own timeline● What it means to trust that what's meant for you won't miss youIf you've ever wondered whether you've missed your chance, whether it's too late to pivot, or whether your most joyful years are already behind you, Leanne has a message for you:You are not behind. You are not too late. Your story is still unfolding.Thought-provoking Quotes:★ "I always just knew it was going to happen... I knew there were people out there going through the same thing I'm going through. I just didn't know how to reach them." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I really try to be present and enjoy it, because what a gift after all these years. It's just like icing on the cake, really." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I hope they take away: use humor to get you through hard times. I think it's the best thing that could ever happen to anybody, to be able to laugh through the bad times." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I've got to be me. I've got to do what I've got to do. If y'all love me or if you don't, it's okay." — Leanne Morgan Resources Mentioned in This Episode:➢ What in the World?!: A Southern Woman's Guide to Laughing at Life's Unexpected Curveballs by Leanne Morgan - https://www.leannemorgan.com/book➢ I'm Every Woman (Netflix Special) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81688708➢ You're Cordially Invited (Amazon MGM Studios) - https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0D9WF53QX➢

Dinner With Strangers: Jess Janz On The Friends We Haven't Met YetWe're more connected than ever—and lonelier than we'd like to admit. What if the answer isn't finding the right people, but simply pulling up another chair?This week, Jen sits down with writer, poet, and community-builder Jess Janz to talk about her new book, The Table Where We Meet, and the social experiment that grew into the phenomenon known as Dinner With Strangers. What began as a gathering around a table with a few curious questions has now welcomed more than a thousand people into conversations that move past small talk and into the territory we all secretly long for: belonging.Jen and Jess explore why so many of us feel disconnected, what makes a question powerful enough to crack a person open, and how vulnerability creates the conditions for genuine connection. Whether you're craving deeper friendships, navigating loneliness, or wondering how to build a bigger table in your own life, this conversation is a hopeful reminder that meaningful connection is still possible—and closer than you think.In this episode, you'll hear:The hidden costs of loneliness and our growing hunger for belongingWhy "What's your favorite movie?" might be the wrong icebreaker—and what to ask insteadWhat happens when one person chooses vulnerability firstWhy community isn't something we stumble into—it's something we createQuotes:"There's alchemy in holding a heavy dish for the person beside you, reaching across, filling water glasses. All of that is so disarming. It shouldn't be a roadblock to connection—it should be the bridge." – Jess Janz"Loneliness and helplessness is something that is weaponized in our lives right now, and so it's radical to be in community together." – Jess JanzResources Mentioned:The Table Where We Meet by Jess JanzWith StrangersJen's dinner party for her daughterAwake: A Memoir by Jen HatmakerDan ManganBuy Jess' bookGuest's Links:Website | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok | SubstackConnect with Jen!Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

Every summer, Jen heads off on her annual Me Camp, a month dedicated to stepping away from the noise to reconnect with herself. But this year, Me Camp isn't a tradition or a luxury. It's an act of survival.In the wake of major surgery, while carrying the weight of parenting adult children, navigating family crises, supporting loved ones through illness, and trying to hold together a life once built for two people, Jen found herself physically, emotionally, and mentally depleted. She almost didn't go.In this deeply personal solo episode, Jen shares what finally convinced her to leave anyway, why asking for help has become one of the hardest and holiest lessons of this season, and what she's learning about the difference between escaping your life and stepping away long enough to return to it whole.If you're the dependable one, the fixer, the person everyone calls in a crisis, this conversation is a gentle but urgent invitation. Loosen your grip. Let people show up for you. Remember that rest isn't a reward for finishing the work. Sometimes it's the very thing that makes it possible to keep going.In this episode, Jen explores:What happens when life outpaces your capacityWhy asking for help feels so uncomfortable, especially for capable peopleThe hidden cost of believing you're indispensableHow codependency can disguise itself as responsibilityWhy retreat can be an act of courage, not avoidanceThe simple invitation to "choose the lake chair anyway"Whether you're recovering from something visible or carrying burdens no one else can see, this episode offers permission to stop white-knuckling your way through life, receive the care that's available to you, and trust that stepping away can be the very thing that helps you step back in with renewed strength.Thought-Provoking Quotes:"I have managed and been the troubleshooter, the point person, the heavy lifter, the anchor, the decider of so much in the last few months by myself. And some of it is absolutely consequential. Huge, huge things. And all of it just outpaced me." – Jen Hatmaker"I think those of us who struggle to ask for help have some brutal combination of pride (the bad kind) and a false sense of self-sufficiency, and this is somehow wrapped up in how people think of us. Do they think of me as needy? Do they think of me as irresponsible?" – Jen Hatmaker"I'm gonna treat rest like it's sacred, as opposed to the go, go, go adventure energy I normally have." – Jen HatmakerResources Mentioned in This Episode:Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife Starts Here - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/sacred-yes-reclaiming-joy-in-midlife-starts-here/Jen's first cookbook, Feed These People: Slam-Dunk Recipes for Your Crew - https://amzn.to/3R1P0psJen's Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/The Awake Collective - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/p/the-awake-collectiveConnect with Jen!Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ | Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker | Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ | Facebook -

Description: Three years ago, Katherine May gave us a language for something many of us experience but rarely know how to name: wintering. Those seasons of life when everything slows down. When grief arrives. When burnout catches up with us. When illness, loss, caregiving, parenting challenges, or unexpected change force us to stop and reconsider how we're living. As part of our Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife series, we're revisiting this unforgettable conversation because Katherine's wisdom feels even more relevant today than it did when it first aired. Together, Jen and Katherine explore what it means to stop treating ourselves like machines and start honoring our humanity. They discuss the value of retreat, the necessity of rest, and why healing cannot be rushed. Katherine challenges the cultural pressure to push through difficult seasons and instead invites us to trust that growth is still happening beneath the surface—even when life appears dormant. Nestled in this conversation is a gentle reminder that joy isn't always found by adding more. Sometimes it emerges when we create space. Space for solitude. Space for beauty. Space to notice what's growing quietly within us. If you've been feeling weary, stretched thin, or ready to step off the hamster wheel for a moment, this episode offers a different path forward—one marked by grace, patience, and the courage to rest before collapse forces it upon us. In this very gentle and generous conversation, you'll hear:Why every life includes seasons of "wintering"The difference between retreat and isolationHow beauty sustains us during difficult seasonsWhy sadness isn't something to fixPractical ways to create restorative space in everyday lifeWhat it means to trust the season you're in Sometimes the most sacred yes isn't a leap forward. It's permission to pause. Thought-provoking Quotes:"You can trust this space, and you can trust your sadness. It's telling you something. You don't have to run away from it. You can be sad. You can handle being sad. What you can't handle is pretending not to be sad and being sad anyway." — Katherine May"There is a process of healing, and it's also a process of change. Those things will take a certain amount of time whatever you do. You are not doing anything wrong if you're still suffering a week later, a month later, or six months later." — Katherine May"If you can lean into that space and accept it rather than fight it, you will spare yourself a lot of pain." — Katherine May"People who've gone through major winters always seem to look back and say, 'I wouldn't have not gone through it if it meant I couldn't be who I am now.'" — Katherine May"Look for beauty in that space. Reacquaint yourself with your gut feeling that leads you toward what you find beautiful and awe-inspiring." — Katherine May Resources Mentioned in This Episode:[Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times](https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/wintering/?utm_source=chatgpt.com) by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/wintering/[Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age](https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/enchantment/?utm_source=chatgpt.com) by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/enchantment/[The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch](

Description:In this deeply personal solo episode, Jen takes us to the place where this journey began: Me Camp. What started as a spontaneous trip to coastal Maine during one of the hardest seasons of her life became an annual practice of restoration, adventure, healing, and joy. Six summers later, as she arrives in a tiny lakeside town in Ontario for another month of Me Camp, she's reflecting on the small word that changed everything: yes.This month, we'll be exploring what it means to reclaim joy, embrace rest, honor our desires, and create lives that are not just productive—but deeply satisfying.It's time to discover your own Sacred Yes.Thought-provoking Quotes:“MeCamp changed my life. I'm not being demonstrative or exaggerating. It's where the ‘Sacred Yes' got its first footing.” – Jen Hatmaker“I keep my heart open to whatever's possible. Who could I meet? What could I experience? Where could I go? What can I see? And when people are like, hey, do you wanna…? The answer's yes. And so that sacred yes got sort of imprinted on my heart.” – Jen Hatmaker“I feel the weight of irresponsible yeses that should have been no's.” – Jen HatmakerResources Mentioned in This Episode:MeCamp 2026 Announcement -Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4xzBo5nJen's Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/Join the Awake Collective - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/p/the-awake-collectiveJen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-clubConnect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmakerThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

Description: As part of our Freedom & Flourishing series this Pride Month, we're revisiting the most downloaded episode in the history of For the Love—a conversation that has continued to ripple through families, friendships, and faith communities for years after it first aired.Six years ago, Jen sat down with her daughter Sydney to hand her the microphone and invite her to tell her own story in her own words. What followed was a brave, tender, and deeply honest conversation about growing up gay in the church, loving Jesus while feeling afraid and alone, and finding the courage to embrace the fullness of who you are.Sydney shares what it was like to navigate faith and identity as a young person, the messages she received from churches and Christian leaders, and the real impact those messages have on LGBTQIA+ kids sitting quietly in pews every Sunday. Together, Jen and Sydney discuss what true allyship requires, why affirmation matters, and how we can create homes, communities, and faith spaces where people are cherished exactly as they are.In this episode:Sydney shares her journey of growing up gay within a Christian family and faith communityA candid conversation about faith, identity, and belongingWhat churches and Christian leaders need to understand about LGBTQIA+ youthWhy allyship requires more than acceptance—it requires actionA call to advocate for and protect transgender people, who often face the greatest vulnerabilityHow creating safe, welcoming spaces helps all people flourishContent Note: This episode includes discussion of the mental health challenges, isolation, and discrimination often experienced by LGBTQIA+ youth.Thought-provoking Quotes:"I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all." — Sydney Hatmaker"It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God." — Sydney Hatmaker"The biggest act of allyship you can make is using your voice in places where marginalized people feel less safe." — Sydney HatmakerResources Mentioned in This Episode:This Is How It Always Is by Laurie Frankel — https://www.lauriefrankel.net/this-is-how-it-always-is.htmlHuman Rights Campaign LGBTQ+ Youth Research — https://www.thehrcfoundation.org/reports/collections/youth-report-collectionHRC & University of Connecticut LGBTQ+ Youth Study — https://reports.hrc.org/2023-lgbtq-youth-reportConnect with Jen!Website: https://jenhatmaker.com/Instagram: https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerTwitter: https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/Facebook: https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmakerThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

Description:For 15 years, Tim Schraeder Rodriguez quietly shaped the digital face of some of the biggest names in evangelical Christianity — Willow Creek, Hillsong, Elevation — helping mega-churches reach millions with a message of radical welcome. The painful irony? He was living proof of their unspoken rules. Useful in the shadows. Unacceptable in the light.In this conversation, Tim joins Jen and Amy to talk about his new memoir, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and the full arc of his story: growing up adopted with a sense of "anxious apartness," signing the purity pledge as a kid who already knew he was gay, eight years in the loosely-held and deeply damaging world of conversion therapy, and eventually a breaking point that brought him to his knees — and then, slowly, to himself.Today, the conversation swirls around what conversion therapy actually looks like from the inside (football coaches, Mary Kay consultants, and all), the complicated grief of leaving a community that was also your career and your family, how the Pulse Orlando shooting became Tim's personal line in the sand, and what it took to find his way back to faith — this time, in church basements with other sober queer people finding a God of their own understanding.They also get into the current state of conversion therapy in America, why it's more active and accessible than most people realize, and what the rest of us — regular people who just live on their street and go to their jobs — can actually do about it.This one is hard and beautiful and hopeful. Don't miss it.Thought-provoking Quotes:★ "I was living proof of their unspoken rules. I was useful in the shadows, but unacceptable in the light." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "It really kind of disintegrates you in body, mind and spirit because you're acting and being something and someone that you're not." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "Freedom wasn't finally becoming who they said I was supposed to be, but finally embracing who I believe God created me to be." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "More transformation was happening in church basements than was ever happening upstairs." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "I finally feel like I'm living from a place of honesty and truth. I sense and feel God's presence with me today now more as an openly gay man than I ever did in the years I was in conversion therapy." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez Resources Mentioned in This Episode:➢ Dissenting Harmony - Amy's Rage Choir - https://dissentingharmony.betterworld.org/➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout: A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging by Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez - https://amzn.to/48smCCv➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout audiobook - https://amzn.to/3OZULmD➢ Exodus International - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_International➢ The Trevor Project — thetrevorproject.org➢ ...

Description:As we celebrate Juneteenth, Jen sits down with writer, activist, theologian, and longtime friend Lisa Sharon Harper for a conversation that's equal parts history lesson, spiritual challenge, and call to action. Together, they explore the often-overlooked story of Juneteenth—not just the delayed news of emancipation in Texas, but the deeper history of freedom promised, denied, and fought for across generations.Fresh from a powerful march across Selma's Edmund Pettus Bridge, Lisa reflects on what it means to stand in the footsteps of civil rights heroes while confronting the realities of the present moment. Drawing from her own family's legacy of resistance, she shares why her hope no longer rests in institutions, laws, or political systems, but in ordinary people willing to bend the arc of history toward justice.The conversation moves from the unfinished work of voting rights to the spiritual courage required for this cultural moment. As Lisa puts it, perhaps our task is not simply to recover what has been lost, but to become “the architects of the next America.”Whether you're marking Juneteenth, wrestling with questions about democracy and belonging, or searching for hope in uncertain times, this conversation is a timely reminder that freedom has always depended on people willing to imagine—and build—something better.Thought-provoking Quotes:★ “The Supreme Court has effectively placed us back into the time of Plessy vs Ferguson, which said separate and equal is okay, the time of even Dred Scott, which says a black man has no rights that a white man need abide by. That's what they're gunning for.”★ In the past, my hope was in the law. In the past, my hope was in the dream of America. My hope was in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights. My hope was in the church. But what I'm learning is that the arc of the moral universe has bent toward justice because people have bent it.”★ “What can they do to us? What can they do? They can put us in jail. God is there. They can deport us. God will be there. They can kill us. And God will be there. So what can they do? They can't do anything to us. Not really.” Resources Mentioned in This Episode:➢ (The Gospel of Shalom) Unequally Saved: The Church's Role in Racism with Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-08/unequally-saved-the-churchs-role-in-racism-with-lisa-sharon-harper/➢ Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All by Lisa Sharon Harper - https://amzn.to/43LTXW1➢ “All Roads Lead To The South” Rally - https://blackpowerwarroom.com/dayofaction/➢ A Resistance History of the United States by Tad Stoermer - https://amzn.to/4dK3RNS➢ Amazing Grace | William Wilberforce film - https ...

Description:It's Pride Month, and we couldn't think of a better time to bring back one of our most beloved episodes. Sara Cunningham — founder of Free Mom Hugs — first joined Jen back in 2018, when she was a Christian mom from Oklahoma City who had just started showing up at Pride parades with a handmade sign and a button. A lot has happened since then. What began as one mom extending her arms to strangers has grown into a global movement. Free Mom Hugs now trains advocates, lobbies legislatures, and shows up year after year for LGBTQIA+ people whose own families walked away. Sara hasn't just built an organization — she's built a lifeline. In this conversation, Sara and Jen revisit the journey that started it all: how Sara moved from the church to the Pride parade without losing her faith, what it meant for her son Parker to come out into a family still finding its footing, and how the stories of people who had lost everything — their families, their churches, their sense of belonging — fell into her arms and changed the course of her life. They also talk about what it takes to turn personal pain into structural change, and why showing up — physically, politically, and relationally — for the LGBTQIA+ community matters more than ever right now. This one is worth every minute. Enjoy this encore conversation with our beloved friend, Sara Cunningham! Thought-provoking Quotes: “No one has searched for God more than the Gay Christian.” – Sara Cunningham “The first drag show that I ever went to, when I crossed the threshold, I really thought lightning might strike. But, I realized these are beautiful people raising money for homeless LGBTQ youth. And I was so moved by that. I had it totally wrong. I believed a lie that kept me from some of the most beautiful experiences I've had in my life.”  – Sara Cunningham “I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham Resources Mentioned in This Episode: LGBTQIA MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/parenting-lgbtqia-teens-tweens Mama Bears - https://www.realmamabears.org/  FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spring-back-series-living-proudly-with-sydney-hatmaker/id1258388821?i=1000523761007  Kai Shappley's Website - https://kaishappley.com/  Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference - https://freemomhugs.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.ViewPage&pageId=571  Kimberly Shappley's Website - https://ourfaithintransition.com/  Glennon Doyle's Website - https://momastery.com/  How We Sleep at Night: A Mother's Memoir by Sara Cunningham - https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Sleep-At-Night/dp/1499725388  Good Friend with Jamie Lee Curtis ft Sara Cunningham - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/sara-cunningham/id1573809537?i=1000556513469  HRC Oklahoma - https://www.hrc.org/news/p3?state=oklahoma  ACLU Oklahoma - https://www.acluok.org/  Freedom Oklahoma - https://www.freedomoklahoma.org/  Guest's Links: Website - https://freemomhugs.org/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/freemomhugs/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/freemomhugs Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/freemomhugsinc Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5BP-GtZ7HFPUu3PpTQMOGw Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If you grew up on Christian music in the '90s, there's a good chance Testify to Love wasn't just a hit song—it was the soundtrack to a season of your life. Three decades after Avalon first released the iconic anthem, Jen sits down with original Avalon member Michael Passons, longtime Avalon vocalist Melissa Greene, and country music star Ty Herndon to talk about the remarkable re-release of a song that has found new meaning for a new generation. But this isn't simply a conversation about music. It's the untold story behind one of CCM's most beloved songs. Michael shares the painful reality of losing his place in Avalon after coming out as gay. Melissa reflects on the faith journey that transformed her understanding of inclusion and belonging. Ty opens up about his own path through addiction, recovery, faith, and finally living fully and truthfully as himself. Together, they revisit the song that connected millions of listeners and explore why its message of love, acceptance, and human dignity feels more relevant now than ever. Filled with laughter, tears, hard-earned wisdom, and more than a few moments that will leave you reaching for the tissues, this conversation is a beautiful testament to friendship, healing, and the courage it takes to live loud. Whether Testify to Love has been on your playlist for thirty years or you're hearing its story for the first time, this episode is a powerful reminder that love's truest testimony is not who it excludes—but who it embraces. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I lost my community, my family, my career, all within a couple of seconds. That's a lot to process.” - Michael Passons "The people I loved and the fullness of their humanity butted up against my theological positions. I had to ask myself: Do I keep creating fences and becoming more exclusive? Or could it be that my views of God, humanity, and the world need to change?" – Melissa Greene "What I've noticed in the lives of people who have allowed themselves to evolve and change their mind is that that process pulls us toward an expansiveness that is just magical." - Jen Hatmaker “You don't live in the church, the church lives in you. You have an opportunity right now to start your own church and decide who sits at your table. No one can kick you out of your own church.” - Ty Herndon Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Avalon - https://www.avalonthegroup.com/ Carman - https://carman.org/ Stephen Curtis Chapman - https://store.stevencurtischapman.com/ Kirk Franklin - https://kirkfranklin.com/ Michael's Instagram Reel - https://www.instagram.com/reels/DY6_JF6BDyO/ Dottie Rambo - https://www.dottierambo.net/ Testify to Love - https://music.apple.com/us/song/testify-to-love-feat-melissa-greene/1893435396 Testify to Love video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7IPvr6b8s Melissa's Links: Website - https://www.melissagreene.net Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/melissagreene Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/melissagreeneofficial/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWQpP8gHH7vew99LcQJs3Og Substack - https://melissagreene.substack.com/p/testify-to-love Michael's Links: Website - https://michaelpassons.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/michaelpassons/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/michaelpassonsmusic Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@michaelpassonsmusic TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@michaelpassonsmusic Ty's Links: Website - https://www.tyherndon.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tyherndonofficial/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tyherndonofficial Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/OfficialTyHerndon TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tyherndonofficial Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We were supposed to talk about Deacon King Kong. We did not.    When Jen sat down with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist James McBride to discuss the Jen Hatmaker Book Club's May selection, the conversation took a hard left turn into something far richer — a wide-ranging tour through one of the most remarkable lives in American letters.    James opens up about a scrappy and troubled adolescence in Brooklyn, getting straightened out in the heat of the Louisville, Kentucky summers, and the music that quite literally saved him. He reminisces about touring Europe as a young musician and playing saxophone alongside Stevie Ray Vaughan at Antone's in Austin, traveling with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour as a young journalist, surviving the Boston Globe's newsroom in the 1980s, writing songs for Anita Baker and Grover Washington, working with Quincy Jones, and getting dressed down by Harry Belafonte in a writers' room. Along the way, he reflects on race, art, faith, forgiveness, music, storytelling, old cars, and why the best writers are simply the people paying closest attention. He also shares what gives him hope about America right now — and it might surprise you.   Of course, we touch on Deacon King Kong—its unforgettable characters, humor, and heart—but this conversation became something even bigger: a portrait of the life experiences that shaped the storyteller behind the book.   Come for the book club discussion. Stay for one of the most fascinating conversations Jen has had in a long time.   Oh, and Deacon King Kong is a masterpiece. You should absolutely read it.    Thought-provoking Quotes:   Resources Mentioned in This Episode:   Guest's Links: Website - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmcbrideauthor/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JamesMcBrideAuthor/   Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. ★ “I didn't grow up wanting to be a writer. We were just concerned about eating.” – James McBride★ “Years and years of playing $50, $75, $100 gigs prepares you for a life of good struggle.” – James McBride★ “People are trying to do their best. Just because you don't agree with them, it doesn't mean they're not trying to do their best.” – James McBride★ “We have work to do and I'm proud of those of us who are doing it. And for those of us who are not, maybe their children will come to it or maybe they won't. The struggle is a beautiful thing.” – James McBride➢ Miracle at St. Anna (Spike Lee movie) - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/miracle-at-st-anna/➢ The Good Lord Bird: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4eJBPDc➢ The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4d74l0a➢ Deacon King Kong: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4uLm4QP➢ The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4tv1nYc ➢ Parting the Waters: America in the King Years 1954-63 by Taylor Branch - https://amzn.to/49Nt3Av➢ Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOopIz2aHN5knpp-Y-iOHWJBAWnpj_HQTJ-kU2uedz33q6e3xyjrb To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:He's back — and this time he brought a memoir. Comedian Kevin James Thornton returns to For the Love, and if you thought you knew Kevin from his hilarious auto-tuned TikToks and wired-headphone microphone bits, this conversation will lovingly surprise you. Kevin's debut memoir, Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat, traces his journey from performing as a literal sin clown on a youth group mission trip in 1990s New York City, to grinding it out on the stand-up circuit in LA, to touring one-man shows across the US, Canada, and eventually the world — Helsinki, Stockholm, Paris — all the way to present-day Cincinnati, where he's navigating a major life upheaval with nothing but his 13-pound black cat Comet and an extraordinary amount of hard-won self-awareness. In this conversation, Kevin opens up about what it actually took to write a book — including the two-week-long Airbnb retreat where he mostly just slept and watched TV because his attention span had been completely obliterated — and what surprised him most about recording the audiobook (hint: he cried, more than once, and they left it in). He talks about the strange, freeing moment he realized he no longer needed to prove himself to anyone, and how that shift was the very thing that made his work finally land. And he reflects on the beautiful, sometimes maddening truth that life doesn't end so much as it just keeps beginning again. Thought-provoking Quotes: "Even when I was living in my car, I was still dreaming about the next creative project...I was like that when I was 20. And I'm like that today." – Kevin James Thornton "I didn't realize that I went out into the world constantly trying to prove myself, that I was someone without Jesus. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I can see it so clearly looking backward now." – Kevin James Thornton "We sort of hand over this personal power to other people. It takes a long time to recognize and unlearn that." – Kevin James Thornton Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Brick - https://getbrick.com Jen's Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/ Sarah Bessey's Substack - https://sarahbessey.substack.com/ Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat by Kevin James Thornton - https://amzn.to/4mVYPAJ Laughing Toward The Light: Comedian James Thornton Finds Himself at 50 - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-55/laughing-toward-the-light-comedian-james-thornton-finds-himself-at-50/ Create with Kevin (watercolor videos) - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX-UksfK1pG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Enneagram assessment - https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ The Comedy Store - https://thecomedystore.com/ Big Baby audiobook - https://amzn.to/4eClfVL Guest's Links: Website - https://www.kevinjamesthornton.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kevinjamesthornton Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kevinjamesthornton1 Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNQbKNgL8bcuH8z4pzh9flw TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kevinjamesthornton Substack - https://kevinjamesthornton.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty. In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they'll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it's awkward) can be both healing and hilarious. Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives. Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he's ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they've ever had to tell themselves And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage Thought-provoking Quotes: “The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt “One of the hardest things that I had to deal with telling myself is that it's okay to forgive yourself and to move forward. You deserve things in life, although maybe you haven't been the best person at times.”– Tyler Merritt “I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt “I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6 This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don't Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/ Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/ Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi Guest's Links: Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/ Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every family has its legends, the stories told and retold until they become gospel. Family Lore is a new weekly podcast that revisits those tales with curiosity, digging into the history behind each one to uncover what's true, what's myth, and what it all means. Enjoy this preview, then catch full episodes wherever you listen: https://link.pscrb.fm/f0281/FLFD To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:There are some books you read with your whole body. Strangers by Belle Burden is one of those books. Belle was married for twenty-one years. Three kids. A life that, from the outside, looked like everything you're supposed to want. Then on the seventh day of the pandemic lockdown, a stranger left her a voicemail — and by the next morning, the man she thought she knew was gone. Belle is a former Davis Polk attorney, a descendant of John Jay, and the granddaughter of legendary socialite Babe Paley. She was raised in a world where women simply did not speak publicly about their husbands' transgressions. So she broke the chain — first in a viral New York Times Modern Love essay, then in her New York Times bestselling memoir. And now she's here with Jen. This conversation is everything. The night it all fell apart — the dinner, the mopped floor, the voicemail, the packed bag by morning. The myths we hand women about divorce and who gets to carry the shame. The money piece that nobody wants to talk about but everybody needs to hear. And the strange, hard-won truth that the most devastating thing that ever happened to you might also be the thing that finally gives you back to yourself. Jen and Belle are in an accidental sisterhood — two women who wrote the book about the thing that broke them, because it turns out a million other women are walking around carrying the same broken thing in silence. This one is for every woman who has ever stood in a kitchen in her pajama pants and felt the floor shift beneath her feet. If you can't yet imagine what's waiting for you on the other side of the hardest thing, let Belle and Jen show you. Thought-provoking Quotes:   Resources Mentioned in This Episode:   Guest's Links: Website - https://www.belleburden.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/belleburden/   Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. ★ “It's really connected me to humanity to hear people's very private stories, their very private feelings, and that they feel safe sharing them with me because I think I was so raw and open and honest about my own.”-- Belle Burden★ “Writing about pain is really something that we really don't see enough of.” -- Belle Burden★ “It took me years to let go of the matronly woman in the pajama pants who he wasn't attracted to anymore and to replace her image in my mind with something else.” -- Belle Burden★ “People really want to find the red flags because they want to know that this ending was predictable. I think that makes people feel safer because this is a scary story. It feels totally impossible and then also very possible. I think people really want those red flags.” -- Belle Burden★ “I never could have thought that that horrible thing could happen to me and I could end up in a place where I'm happier, where my life is more interesting, that I feel so much more myself and it's very hard to envision that when you're in it.”-- Belle Burden★ “I think when things kind of fall apart, you just are forced to become more relaxed because nothing is going as you intended it to go.” -- Belle Burden➢ Strangers: A Memoir of Marriage by Belle Burden - https://amzn.to/42M5rbQ➢ New York Times piece | Was I Married to a Stranger? - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/30/style/modern-love-married-to-a-stranger.html➢ TIME | The Danger of Surrendering Your Financial Independence in a Relationship - https://time.com/article/2026/04/17/the-danger-of-surrendering-your-financial-independence-in-a-relationship/➢ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4wC9N2Z➢ Buy Strangers from your local bookstore or McNally Jackson bookstore - https://mcnallyjackson.com/book/9780593733318 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Some episodes we plan. This one you created. This week, Jen and Amy are stepping back and letting the people they do this whole thing for take center stage. It's Listener Voicemail Day — and honestly? It might be our favorite kind of episode. Because nothing reminds us why this community exists quite like hearing your actual voices. So we're bringing your calls to you — from all kinds of moments and all kinds of women. Jessica calls in to reflect on our Awake Collective episode and where she is at in her own healing process, and feeling the loneliness that can settle in when you're deep in the work. Jen and Amy reflect on so much of the wisdom of our incredible Awake Collective panel – Kate Bowler, Nedra Tawwab, Emily Nagoski, and Kobe Cambell, whose words echo here: healing isn't supposed to feel good — it's supposed to feel like disruption. Sara brings it home with a call about raising young girls. Between them, Jen and Amy are parenting nine young adults, so they have thoughts. Amanda found Awake on vacation and came home having discovered something she didn't know she was missing — an invisible community of women who just get it. Deborah calls in from Canada with a story that will stop you in your tracks. A devastating and beautiful parallel between her journey losing her husband to terminal brain cancer and Jen's own story — and the breathtaking grace of how, by God's grace, we do recover. Tania reflects on the Wilderness and Wonder series and a recent trip to the mountains that cracked something open in her — the awe, the connection, the reminder that this podcast is its own kind of sacred space. And Diavianne closes things out talking budgets and spreadsheets, which sounds ordinary until you realize it's actually about power — the freedom and confidence that come from truly owning your financial life. Jen and Amy respond to each one with the honesty and tenderness that only comes from doing this long enough to know: you are never as alone as you think you are. This is the connective tissue. This is why we show up every week. Have something you need to say out loud? Head to JenHatmaker.com/Podcast, find the Send Voicemail button, and leave us your story. We're listening. Thought-provoking Quotes: “There's something comforting about not feeling alone in something. I borrow courage from other people who say ‘me too'.” – Jen Hatmaker “Some things only work for us for a season. It's okay to change things up. There's not one right way to do things.” – Amy Hardin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Wake-Up Call: What Changes in Midlife—and Why You're Not Imagining It - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-wake-up-call-what-changes-in-midlife-and-why-youre-not-imagining-it/ Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker - https://amzn.to/4whxU6N The Emotional (and Sometimes Chaotic) Life of Teenagers with Dr. Lisa Damour - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-52-for-the-love-of-calming-the-chaos/the-emotional-and-sometimes-chaotic-life-of-teenagers-with-dr-lisa-damour/ Good Bones by Maggie Smith - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/89897/good-bones Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4neIlUp Jen's Finance MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/me-course-finance Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Some conversations are so good, they deserve a second life. As we've been building out our Chosen Family series — exploring what it actually takes to find, keep, and nurture the people who truly see you — we kept coming back to this tender conversation because it was resonant then but it hits differently now. Dr. Thema Bryant is a psychologist, author, professor, ordained minister, and former president of the American Psychological Association. Her books Matters of the Heart and Homecoming have resonated deeply with women navigating the beautiful, complicated work of belonging — and her clarity on what it means to truly come home to yourself is exactly the foundation this series needed. In this conversation, Jen and Amy dig into: Why midlife can feel isolating even when you're surrounded by people — and what's really going on beneath that loneliness How to grieve friendships that have run their season while making genuine room for new ones The difference between performing friendship and actually being emotionally available for it Why our wellness matters more than our loyalty — and what it looks like to stop sacrificing yourself in the name of showing up for everyone else Practical tools like writing vows to yourself and how to build community from scratch when one was never ready-made for you Because here's what we keep coming back to: you cannot truly choose people if you haven't first chosen yourself. This conversation is the starting place. Thought-provoking Quotes: When I observe someone making a polite but clear boundary, I respect it. I'm impressed. – Jen Hatmaker Can you come to the place where you admit, I miss myself? And myself is not my labor. Myself is not my role. Myself is a living soul and one of the things that feeds my soul are my friendships but those got neglected because I was told that to be a good leader or to be a good mom, I had to deprioritize the things that nourished me. – Dr. Thema Bryant If a community is not ready-made, something for you to join, it's something for you to create. – Dr. Thema Bryant Our wellness is more important than our loyalty. – Dr. Thema Bryant If you have the tendency of picking people who don't pick you, you're not emotionally available. If you were emotionally available when there was nothing flowing back to you, you would shift. But if you fear intimacy, closeness, or being seen and known, you will continue to pursue that which is fleeing you, because it is safer. This is true in friendships and romantic relationships. – Dr. Thema Bryant Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/40XMql6 Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole, Authentic Self by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/4hVYQ4c The Homecoming Podcast with Dr. Thema Bryant - https://soundcloud.com/dr-thema-bryant-davis Guest's Links: Thema's website - https://drthema.com/ Thema's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dr.thema/ Thema's Twitter - https://x.com/drthema Thema's Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ThemaBryantDavis Thema's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxpb1ZdNd6M99Fhaw09H81Q Thema's Podcast - https://soundcloud.com/dr-thema-bryant-davis Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:There are artists whose music marks a moment—and then there are the ones whose songs stay with us for a lifetime. This week, Jen sits down with beloved returning guest Amy Grant to talk about her long-awaited new album, a project shaped by time, reflection, and a life that's been fully lived. After a significant health crisis and a slow, intentional return to music, Amy is creating from a place that feels more open, more grounded, and more honest than ever. Together, they talk about what it means to come back to yourself after everything changes, how creativity evolves over decades, and why the stories we tell later in life often carry a different kind of weight. Amy shares how her songwriting has shifted, the role of memory and perspective in this new work, and what it looks like to keep making meaningful art in a season that feels both quieter and more expansive. At the heart of both this album and this conversation is Amy's quiet but steady intention to be a witness—to tell the truth about a life as it's being lived, and to honor the people who have shown up along the way. From deeply personal songs shaped by love and loss to collaborations with her husband, Vince Gill, and her daughters, this record reflects not just where Amy is now, but who has helped her get here. This conversation is thoughtful, unhurried, and full of the kind of wisdom that only comes from living a long time and staying curious along the way. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Many times our limitations create a new path for us.” – Amy Grant “The great thing about being 65 is that you can be a witness to everyone and to yourself.” – Amy Grant “In my sixties, I've realized this is a different landscape and I've got to have to welcome myself differently.” – Amy Grant "I just think there is something that happens in your sixties that you just stop fighting it and you welcome it." - Amy Grant Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Amy Grant - The Me That Remains - https://30tgrs.ffm.to/themethatremains Vince Gill - https://www.vincegill.com/ Tom Douglas, songwriter - https://www.instagram.com/tomdouglasmusic Mac MacAnally - https://macmcanally.com/ Brandi Carlile - https://www.brandicarlile.com/ Three Wishes on NBC - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460685/ Jimmy Gentry, WWII veteran - https://www.franklintn.gov/Home/Components/News/News/11185/83 Amy Grant - Baby, Baby - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnAD2Tb-SE8 Guest's Links: Website - https://www.amygrant.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amygrantofficial/ Twitter - https://x.com/amygrant Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/amygrant/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZSki0usQ84d5cVkiWxy2UQ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@amygrantmusic Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, we're reading a novel that doesn't just tell a story—it inhabits one.   Jen sits down with author Maddie Mortimer to talk about Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies, a breathtaking and formally inventive debut that explores what it means to live inside a body that is changing, remembering, and, ultimately, letting go. At the center is Lia, a woman living with terminal cancer—but this story unfolds as a chorus, with voices that include her family, her own inner world, and even the cancer itself.   Together, Jen and Maddie explore the deeply personal roots of the novel, including Maddie's own experience of losing her mother, and how that grief shaped the book's emotional precision. They talk about why she chose to move beyond a traditional narrative and instead capture the feeling of illness—the disorientation, the fractured sense of time, and the way memory lives not just in the mind, but in the body.   They also tap into the book's striking structure—the visual and sensory journey it creates for readers—and how that imaginative form is now being adapted for the stage, bringing the story full circle to Maddie's theatrical roots.   In this conversation, we consider what it means to listen to the body as a narrator, how love shows up in the smallest moments, and why stories like this invite us to pay closer attention to the life we are living right now.   This one is tender, surprising, and quietly unforgettable.   Thought-provoking Quotes:   Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Guest's Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maddiemortimer/ Twitter - https://x.com/MaddieMortimer   Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. ★ “For me, the writing process was much more about thinking of cancer and the way that it moves through language and how language can metastasize on the page and the rhythm of this incredibly hyperactive virus, this illness kind of consuming a body, the way that a dark thought could consume a mind.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “I'm quite a restless reader and I think I get bored quite quickly. What I look for in books is that immediacy of how exciting a sentence is or how funny or moving or strange it is.” – Maddie Mortimer ★ “So much of the process of putting words on a page and writing fiction, specifically, is that you surrender yourself. I think it's less about me feeling like I know anything or have anything to say, but more about removing myself so that you feel like you're listening to the world and to the people that you've met, and the impressions that you, your body, whatever, have absorbed.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “The realm of the playground is the page. It's where anything goes.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “There's something really special about a group of people in a room that are willing to give their time to writers reading their words. It's got that kind of religious, congregational quality to it.” – Maddie Mortimer➢ Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies by Maddie Mortimer - https://amzn.to/3NRIPCC➢ Gilead: A Novel by Marilynne Robinson - https://amzn.to/4dFVYJC➢ Booker Prize: Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies - https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/books/maps-of-our-spectacular-bodies➢ Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOoriPvTDl3MAspLOwF2sMjqu3tmHzwmOex7CKgSLNzOlfBPmpUWb To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If you've ever felt the quiet fear of placing your body—and your baby—into a healthcare system you don't fully understand, this conversation is for you. Today, Jen and Amy sit down with labor and delivery nurse, educator, and internet big sister Jen Hamilton to talk about her brand-new “book baby,” Birth Vibes. With more than a decade at the bedside and millions who trust her honest, compassionate voice, Jen has become a steady guide in one of life's most vulnerable moments. In this episode, we pull back the curtain on the delivery room—the expectations, fears, and surprises—and talk about what it actually means to feel prepared. Not in a rigid, checklist kind of way, but in a deeply personal, values-driven way. Because as Jen reminds us, birth isn't something you control—it's something you move through. Today, we talk about: Why “perfect birth plans” often set us up for disappointment—and what to hold onto instead How to discover your own “birth vibes”—that blend of values, intuition, and informed choice that helps you advocate for yourself What it's like to hold both roles—healthcare provider and influencer—with integrity in today's world How even when birth doesn't go as planned, it can still be empowering, informed, and deeply ours Whether you're expecting, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about the intersection of care, advocacy, and the body's wisdom, this conversation will leave you feeling steadier, braver, and less alone. Because at the end of the day, this isn't just about birth. It's about learning to trust yourself in the middle of something you can't fully control—and finding your voice anyway. Thought-provoking Quotes: “What an honor to be with people during the most vulnerable and impactful moments of their life.” – Jen Hamilton “I can watch someone have a birth that goes completely to plan but if they do not feel heard, respected, and empowered, they can leave that experience having negative feelings about what happened. And then, you can have somebody whose birth goes completely off the rails and they leave that experience looking back positively on it if they were heard, respected, empowered, and informed. It has so little to do with what happens and so much more to do with how it happens.” – Jen Hamilton “Birth plans are as individual as you are as a human.” – Jen Hamilton Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Birth Vibes: Stories and Strategies for an Empowered Birth by Jen Hamilton – https://amzn.to/4sXMrlp Birth Vibes Audiobook – https://amzn.to/4sXMwFJ Trauma: Life in the ER – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215445/ A Baby Story on TLC – https://go.tlc.com/show/a-baby-story-tlc-atve-us Nurse Hadley – https://nursehadley.com/ Read the Red Letters Video - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKVrukwub7O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ== Huff Post | This Viral Video Has People Talking About Christianity Vs 'MAGA Christianity' – https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-viral-video-has-people-talking-about-christianity-versus-maga-christianity-goog_l_685d63d4e4b0bd0253106ddc Amy's Toxically Empathetic Tee - https://www.jenhamilton.co/merch-/p/toxically-empathetic-short-sleeve-tee Read the Red Words Tee - https://www.jenhamilton.co/merch-/p/read-the-red-short-sleeve-tee Guest's Links: Website - https://www.jenhamilton.co/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/_jen_hamilton_ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jenhamiltonfacebook Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@jenhamilton TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@_jen_hamilton_?lang=en Substack - https://jenhamiltonsub.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:This week, Jen and Amy sit down with actress, model, entrepreneur, and Lipstick on the Rim host Molly Sims for a conversation that starts light and breezy—backstage at a Hello Sunshine Shine Away event—and quickly moves into something deeper: what it's like to live in a body that's been watched, evaluated, and monetized for decades… and how your relationship to that body inevitably changes over time. Molly has spent most of her life being seen. But what she shares here is what it's taken to actually see herself. Today, the discussion centers around the quiet (and sometimes jarring) shift into midlife. Molly opens up about figuring it out in real time, what surprised her most about this chapter, and the unexpected places where things have gotten easier. There's also an honest look at what it means to keep showing up in an industry with very loud opinions about women's bodies—and how Molly now navigates beauty, skincare, procedures, and wellness without losing herself in the process. Where's the line between empowerment and pressure? And who gets to decide? But this conversation doesn't stay theoretical. It lands in real life—in marriage, in motherhood, in the everyday negotiations of confidence and insecurity, and in the intentional ways Molly is trying to give her daughter a different starting point than the one she was handed. Along the way, the discussion turns to influence, identity, and the kinds of conversations Molly is creating now that she wasn't having earlier in her career. And in one of the most tender moments of the episode, she reflects on what she would say to her younger self—not to fix her, but just to sit beside her with a little more perspective. This one feels like sitting across from someone who's done a lot of living—and is finally comfortable telling the truth about it. Thought-provoking Quotes: “To be in on something from the inception has given me a lot of fire to keep going.” – Molly Sims “My resilient wall of armor is very strong. I've been told I'm too fat, I'm too tall, I'm too dark, I'm too blonde. Sometimes shit needs to go wrong to give you that, okay, let's cry ourselves out of this hole and pull ourselves out.” – Molly Sims “To be in your forties and not have the energy of being in your twenties is a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.” – Molly Sims “In my fifties, I'm more confident, I'm calmer, and I can handle a lot. But, I get tired.” – Molly Sims Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Raygun What The Hell Is Going On Here Tee - https://www.raygunsite.com/collections/home-page-special/products/what-the-hell Hello Sunshine Shine Away Event - https://hello-sunshine.com/shineaway-2/  YSE BEAUTY - https://www.ysebeauty.com/  |  Get a 15% discount at YSE Beauty using the code FORTHELOVE15. Exclusions apply.  Lipstick on the Rim podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lipstick-on-the-rim/id1560226129 Baby CO2 Laser Treatment Xtreme Glow Dewey Peptide Plumping Serum - https://www.ysebeauty.com/products/xtreme-glow-serum Organic Immune Bloom Jellies - https://greencompassglobal.com/products/immune-bloom Weleda Skin Food - https://amzn.to/41ARQn8 Microneedling with PRP Guest's Links: Website - https://www.mollysims.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/mollybsims Twitter - https://x.com/MollyBSims Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MollySimsOfficial/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/mollysims TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@mollybsims Substack - https://mollysims.substack.com/ Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lipstick-on-the-rim/id1560226129 Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We Will Not Be Aging Quietly: Claiming Your Most Powerful Season with Katie Fogarty Description: What if the years everyone warned you about turned out to be the ones you'd been waiting for? Today, Jen and Amy sit down with Katie Fogarty—a former journalist, career coach, and the voice behind one of the most vibrant midlife podcasts in the country, called A Certain Age—for an honest, energizing hour about what it really means to thrive in this season. Katie launched A Certain Age thirty-five days before her 51st birthday with one mission: blow up the narrative that women become less relevant as they get older. Five years and 230-plus episodes later, she's interviewed hundreds of midlife women—and she has thoughts. Big ones. They dig into the myths about midlife that refuse to die, why Katie calls this season an "accelerant" rather than an obstacle, what it looks like when women stop waiting for permission and start claiming their lives—and what she's hearing that gives her real hope for the women coming behind us. If you've ever felt like midlife was quietly trying to make you smaller—this episode is your push back. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Sometimes the word ‘reinventing' implies we're completely changing our lives and getting rid of everything that came before. It's more about reimagining, because we're drawing on all of our expertise to apply it in new ways, big and small.” – Katie Fogarty “Midlife is that moment where you say, let me get going. The kids are grown, the career maybe is established, life is sort of on track, moving forward, and we have this moment with space in our brain, maybe on our calendar, to actually hit go on whatever it is we've been thinking about for so long.” – Katie Fogarty “If you are feeling disconnected from relationships, or like you're not being supported, find people that you are visible to. There are communities of people out there who care about what you care about, who want to see you, who will see you.” – Katie Fogarty Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen's first colonoscopy - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWz8nTvgo6p/ Sophie Grégoire Trudeau on Life, Emotional Regulation and Midlife Reinventions - https://www.acertainagepod.com/shows/sophie-grgoire-trudeau-on-life-emotional-regulation-and-midlife-reinventions Tamsen Fadal - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/ Grown Woman Talk: Your Guide to Getting and Staying Healthy by Dr. Sharon Malone - https://amzn.to/4t14kQY The New Perimenopause: What's Actually Happening to Your Body with Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-new-perimenopause-whats-actually-happening-to-your-body-with-dr-mary-claire-haver/ When Life Happens: The Mindset Shift You Need to Manage Stress, Build Confidence, and Break Free by Dr. Rachel Goldman - https://amzn.to/4mnvZsY Midlife Private Parts: Revealing Essays That Will Change the Way You Think About Age - https://www.midlifeprivateparts.com/ The Midlife Book Club - https://www.themidlifebookclub.com/about Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club Sandwich by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/3QauFNM Same As It Ever Was by Claire Lombardo - https://amzn.to/4mkK8XI The Grand Paloma Resort: A Novel by Cleyvis Natera - https://amzn.to/4meEQNi The Secret Book Society by Madeline Martin - https://amzn.to/47MkGnX Guest's Links: Website - https://www.acertainagepod.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/acertainagepod/ Podcast - https://www.acertainagepod.com/episodes Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If any conversation belongs squarely in our “The Body Knows: Midlife In Our Skin” series, it's this one, and for one simple reason — pleasure is a body conversation. Desire is a body conversation. And if midlife has shifted how you feel in your own skin, this episode meets you exactly there. Vanessa Marin is a licensed psychotherapist, sex educator, and bestselling author of Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, co-written with her husband Xander. With over two decades of experience helping people dismantle shame and build genuinely intimate relationships, Vanessa brings the kind of candid, warm, and disarmingly funny voice this conversation has always needed. Whether you're partnered or solo, whether your sex life feels complicated or just quietly neglected, whether you're carrying shame you never asked for — this one is for you. Vanessa is here to help us say yes to communication, to connection, and maybe most of all, to pleasure. Here's what we're getting into: Why so many of us have deeply wired, shame-rooted reactions to sex — and where they actually come from Why Vanessa says you should start having sex like a man (yes, really) The myth about the female orgasm that most of us were never taught the truth about The best things you can do for your sex life that have nothing to do with taking your clothes off The difference between spontaneous and responsive desire — and why understanding this might change everything Thought-provoking Quotes: “Despite not getting a great introduction to sex or intimacy or relationships, I had this intuitive sense that there should be joy with this act. There should be connection and intimacy, and it should be something I should feel excited to explore when the time is right.” – Vanessa Marin “This is literally what I am here on this earth for, is to help people get more comfortable talking about sex, connection, and intimacy.” – Vanessa Marin “A lot of people hear, she's a sex therapist. They must have this incredible sex life. The reality is, we've been through ups and downs, too. I am not immune to the water that we all have been swimming in. I've internalized plenty of crap myself. And so I want people to understand we are all struggling to keep that spark alive in one way or another. We are all struggling with our sex lives, with our bodies in one way or another.” – Vanessa Marin Research has shown that in male-female relationships, women are carrying the vast majority of the mental load. There is so much that is going through our heads on a daily basis—all this tracking, and preparing, and anticipating, and evaluating, our heads are just constantly going. And when you have so much in your brain, it makes it really hard to make the space for intimacy and desire too.” – Vanessa Marin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life by Vanessa Marin and Xander Marin - https://amzn.to/43VSwnS The Sex Talks Card Deck and Guidebook: 90 Prompts to Deepen Connection and Spark Intimacy - https://amzn.to/3Hys1xa Vanessa and Xander's Deeper Monthly Membership - https://buy.vmtherapy.com/deeper Guest's Links: Website - https://vmtherapy.com/about Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessaandxander/ Twitter - https://x.com/VMTherapy Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vanessaandxander/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/vanessamarin TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@vanessaandxander Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/vanessaandxander/_created/ Podcast - https://vmtherapy.com/podcast/  Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:This week, Jen and Amy sit down with double board-certified OB-GYN and reproductive endocrinologist Dr. Natalie Crawford, author of The Fertility Formula, for a wide-ranging conversation about hormones, inflammation, stress, and the powerful (and often misunderstood) signals our bodies are constantly sending. While Dr. Crawford's work is rooted in fertility, this episode zooms out to something much bigger: how hormone health reflects our overall well-being — and why midlife is often the moment when the body stops whispering and starts speaking clearly. But this conversation isn't just for women trying to get pregnant. It's for women in perimenopause and menopause wondering what their bodies are doing now — and why. Because fertility is more than reproduction; it's a health marker. The same patterns that shape our fertility years — inflammation, hormone signaling, metabolic health, stress — also influence how we experience menopause, what symptoms show up, and what kinds of support our bodies will need. And it's also for women stepping into the grandparent years — who want to better understand what their daughters, daughters-in-law, and younger women in their lives are navigating. Because the more we understand our own bodies, the more compassion and clarity we bring to the next generation. Together, they unpack: Why your menstrual cycle (even in its changes) is one of your most important health indicators Natalie's experience with pregnancy loss and how it shaped her approach to women's health The effects of societal and political shifts on women's reproductive choices How cycle awareness can support both fertility outcomes and menopause transitions Whether or not you are thinking about fertility — or are long past that season — this conversation reframes it as something more expansive: a reflection of vitality, resilience, and how supported your body truly feels across every stage of life. Thought-provoking Quotes: “We're living in a different era now, luckily, where women are demanding more knowledge about their bodies.” – Dr. Natalie Crawford “I think that my own experience reframed how I educate my patients and the public in taking charge and learning how to listen to your body and believe it. What are those little red flags—whether it's my cycle, whether it's symptoms, whether it's fatigue, and how do I get answers or try to modify those so that I can have more control over what is happening to me?” – Dr. Natalie Crawford “Anybody who's trying to sell you a quick fix, especially if it comes in a bottle, is most likely not in your best interest. That doesn't mean there aren't medications or supplements that can help, but that comes after you've done what you can do.” – Dr. Natalie Crawford Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Fertility Formula: Take Control of Your Reproductive Future by Dr. Natalie Crawford – https://amzn.to/47HZ1NR The New Perimenopause: What's Actually Happening to Your Body with Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-new-perimenopause-whats-actually-happening-to-your-body-with-dr-mary-claire-haver/ Fora Fertility Clinic– https://www.forafertility.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://www.nataliecrawfordmd.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nataliecrawfordmd/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nataliecrawfordmd/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/NatalieCrawfordMD/videos TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@nataliecrawfordmd Substack - https://substack.com/@nataliecrawfordmd Podcast - https://www.nataliecrawfordmd.com/podcast Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Some stories feel less like books and more like quiet companions. Theo of Golden is one of those. This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, Jen sits down with author Allen Levi to talk about the small-town novel that has quietly captured the hearts of readers around the world. Set in the fictional town of Golden, Georgia, the story introduces us to Theo — a mysterious newcomer whose little shop becomes an unlikely gathering place for the people around him. As neighbors wander in carrying grief, questions, regrets, and ordinary Tuesdays, something remarkable begins to happen: lives shift, wounds soften, and the quiet work of grace unfolds in the most unexpected ways. But Allen's path to writing Theo of Golden is a story of its own. Before this book found its way into readers' hands, Allen spent decades living another life — as a litigator and as a musician and songwriter, telling stories in courtrooms and through songs long before he ever sat down to write a novel. In this conversation, Jen and Allen talk about how those two worlds — law and music — shaped the storyteller he would eventually become, and how the long arc of a creative life sometimes leads us somewhere we never expected. Together, Jen and Allen talk about the beauty of slow stories, the sacredness hiding in ordinary places, and why the most transformative moments in life rarely arrive with fanfare. They explore the characters of Golden, the themes of redemption and belonging woven through the book, and the deeper invitation at the heart of Theo's story — to pay attention to the people and moments right in front of us. If you've ever believed that kindness still matters, that communities can heal one conversation at a time, or that ordinary lives are full of extraordinary grace, this conversation will feel like coming home. Grab your coffee, pull up a chair, and join Jen and Allen Levi for a conversation about stories, second acts, and the quiet magic that happens when people really see one another. Thought-provoking Quotes: “All through the writing of the book, I cried and cried and I'm not an easy crier, but I fell in love with these characters. They still kind of inhabit the space around me. But it told me that there was something bigger going on than just the story. Maybe the better angels of our nature are waking up and bringing something to the surface that maybe is good for us. I hope so.” – Allen Levi “I have heard, if you want to write, you just sit down with a pen and you start writing and the story will bubble up. And so I did that and the story never bubbled up. It just frustrated me and frustrated me. That's why I quit so many times, but eventually it started coming together almost like writing a song.” – Allen Levi “Everything that I've done professionally has required me to use words to tell stories, usually to persuade people. As a lawyer, I did that. As a singer songwriter, I did that. And now as a novelist.”– Allen Levi Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi - https://amzn.to/47J6V9p Allen Levi's Music - https://open.spotify.com/artist/2UaP04apWp23PxnhKQHJgx?si=3tzeCi3HROqRampni92Dew Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club Alan Bradley - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/ The Flavia de Luce series by Alan Bradley - https://amzn.to/412lNMm Guest's Links: Website - https://www.allenlevi.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/allenlevi/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/allen.levi.31/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQa2G5Ym0pyNnnK0nocxZ3Q Substack - https://substack.com/@allenclevi Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If you've ever whispered, Is this it?—if you've been doing “all the right things” and still feel that unfinished ache humming under your skin—go ahead and hit download. Jen is joined by her beloved friend (and actual genius) Kate Bowler to talk about her new book, Joyful Anyway—a bracing, funny, tender rebellion against the optimization industrial complex. This is not a “choose joy” pep talk where somebody sprints past you tossing a Live Laugh Love pillow at your face. Kate is here for the after: after the before-and-after story didn't pan out, after grief and guilt and longing set up permanent residence, after you realized happiness is fragile and reality keeps kicking in. Together, Jen, Amy, and Kate name what so many of us can't quite articulate: the ache—that “achy, stabby want” at the center of our lived experience. They talk about why we need permission just to be human, why “performing resilience” is exhausting, and how telling the truth can loosen the grip of the story that's been swallowing the rest of our life. Kate also shares an unforgettable story about a snake bite, an ER, and a moment of unexpected mercy that cracked something open—proof that joy doesn't always come through the front door. Sometimes it slips in sideways, like grace. Like a sudden, full-bodied yes—even when nothing is resolved. You'll also hear about: The difference between happiness (fragile and expensive) and joy (sneaky, un-schedulable, and—somehow—free) How joy finds us through embodied moments—beauty, absurdity, paying attention The Burn Book / Resentment List and why making a “this scarred me, this counted” list might be the most faithful thing you do all week (including Kate's deeply personal grievance about her tragically unaesthetic family gravesite) Roadside Joy Detours: Kate's practice of putting herself “in the way of joy” with absurd road trips to local oddities And Kate's reminder: you are a song—don't die with it still inside you Bottom line: if you're quietly undone, if your body feels weary, if the headlines have you spiraling—Kate is here with permission, language, and a weird little flashlight. The ache stays. But joy still shows up. Sometimes as grace. Sometimes as absurdity. Sometimes as a roadside attraction you drove two hours to see for no reason—except you're alive, and that's reason enough. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I think there's a great mystery at the heart of the human experience and I wanted to explore joy as one of those unbelievable places.” – Kate Bowler “The purpose of that ache inside you is to get you to re-examine how it feels in your body, bring your honesty to it, and then ask, where can I go from here? Where can this take me that's lovelier than here?” – Kate Bowler “I find that absurdity is one of the side doors to joy.” – Kate Bowler “Joy is asking us to step up to the edge of a mystery where we get momentary fulfillment and then we get life. And God is asking us to say that this is holy.” – Kate Bowler Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler - https://amzn.to/3ZWqNBT Kate Bowler book tour - https://katebowler.com/books/joyfulanyway/#tour Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi- https://amzn.to/4bdpN2q Guest's Links: Website - https://katebowler.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katecbowler/ Twitter - https://x.com/katecbowler Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/katecbowler Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf8m7lNdR7YVieU0muCg5cg TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@katecbowler Substack - https://katebowler.substack.com/ Podcast - https://katebowler.com/podcasts/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What does it mean to be okay when nothing is okay? Not fixed. Not optimized. Not cured. Just… okay. This week, Jen and Amy sit down with bestselling author and professional weirdo Jenny Lawson to talk about surviving — and sometimes even thriving — inside a brain that does not always cooperate. Jenny's new book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, is a field guide for tender humans: a collection of tiny tools for when the big solutions feel impossible. Today, we talk about: Living with “tiny erratic squirrels” in your head Why imposter syndrome gets louder with success Learning to live within your real capacity Why you're not failing if it's just not for you Helpful tools like “weird walks”, “body doubling”, “writing Zooms”,  The radical courage of simply staying This conversation explores what happens when we stop trying to override our nervous systems and start listening to them instead. Midlife has a way of stripping away illusion — about productivity, about comparison, about who we're supposed to be. Jenny reminds us that sometimes grit looks like finishing the book. And sometimes it looks like taking a drink of water and calling it enough. If you are exhausted, if you feel behind, if your brain tells you you're the only one struggling – YOU ARE NOT ALONE. And being “still here” is no small thing. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Self-help books are super helpful for the right kind of person but I'm not that person.” – Jenny Lawson “Keep in mind that what worked for you in the past might not necessarily work for you now or in the future, and that doesn't mean you failed. It just means that's an opportunity.” – Jenny Lawson “If you throw humor into a really dark subject, it gives people permission to laugh. And then that big monster becomes so much smaller.” – Jenny Lawson Resources Mentioned in This Episode: How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: Tips and Tricks That Kept Me Alive, Happy, and Creative in Spite of Myself by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4qWKZi5 Samantha Irby – https://www.samanthairby.com/ A Ghost and His Gold by Roberta Eaton Cheadle – https://amzn.to/405lMH8 Anne Rice – https://annerice.com/ Dean Koontz – https://www.deankoontz.com/ Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia – https://amzn.to/475Qp31 Focusmate (Body Doubling App) -  https://www.focusmate.com/ Let's Pretend This Never Happened: (A Mostly True Memoir) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4rGEBN7 Furiously Happy: A Funny Book About Horrible Things by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4u4RBxG Broken (In The Best Possible Way) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4r3Bhuh Jenny Lawson Book Tour - https://thebloggess.com/2026/02/25/how-to-be-okay-when-nothing-is-okay-on-book-tour/ Jenny Lawson's Nowhere Book Shop in San Antonio, TX - https://nowherebookshop.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://thebloggess.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thebloggess/ Twitter - https://x.com/TheBloggess Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jennythebloggess Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/thebloggess/ Substack - https://thebloggess.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:For years, women in their late 30s and 40s have walked into doctors' offices saying the same thing: “I don't feel like myself.” They're exhausted but can't sleep. Gaining weight but eating less. Anxious, foggy, irritable, disconnected. And too often, they're told it's stress. Aging. Depression. Just part of being a woman. But what if it's something else? This week, Jen and Amy sit down with board-certified OB-GYN and menopause expert Dr. Mary Claire Haver to talk about what's really happening in perimenopause — the hormonal transition that can begin years before your final period and affect nearly every system in your body. Drawing from her new book The New Perimenopause, Dr. Haver explains: Why the brain may be the first organ to notice hormone shifts Why antidepressants are often prescribed before hormones are even discussed The dangerous legacy of outdated research and underfunded women's health How bone density, cholesterol, muscle mass, mood, libido, and cognition are all connected And why midlife is not a decline — but a powerful window of opportunity This is not just a conversation about hot flashes. It's about the “Zone of Chaos.” It's about medical gaslighting. It's about reclaiming your body as your ally, not your enemy. If you've ever whispered, “What is wrong with me?” or spent your sleepless nights up Googling dramatic questions like “is my brain broken?” — this episode is for you. You're not broken. You're not weak. And you are definitely not alone. Thought-provoking Quotes: “We got some bad f*cking advice…Power through! You built this life. You asked for this. Oh, and also be thin, and make yourself smaller, and don't take up space, and make sure you put everyone in your family before your needs. That's the only way you're gonna be rewarded, elevated, celebrated is on this altar of self-sacrifice. You know what that did for my mother and my grandmother? Dementia and sarcopenia. I'm saying we're going to take a different path.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver  “Men build rockets. Women build healthcare systems.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver  “One of the good things about menopause is that women lose their give-a-shit filter.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver “I just want menopause to be taken half as seriously as erectile dysfunction.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The New Perimenopause: An Evidence-Based Guide to Surviving the Zone of Chaos and Feeling Like Yourself Again by Dr. Mary Claire Haver – https://www.amazon.com/New-Perimenopause-Evidence-Based-Surviving-Yourself/dp/0593736613/ The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts by Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://amzn.to/4aUtrx3 The Blue Lagoon film (1980) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080453/ Menopause.org The International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health (ISSWSH) - https://www.isswsh.org/ The Pause Life - https://thepauselife.com/ MidiHealth - https://www.joinmidi.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://thepauselife.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drmaryclaire Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@drmaryclaire TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@drmaryclaire Substack - https://drmaryclairehaver.substack.com/ Podcast - https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What do we do when the world feels like too much? When the headlines won't let up, when grief and uncertainty sit heavy in our bodies, when we're carrying more than we ever thought we could—how do we keep going without numbing out or falling apart? This week, Jen sits down with beloved writer and friend Shannan Martin to talk about her new book Counterweights, a tender, practical guide for living with hope in a heavy world. At the center of Shannan's work is a deceptively simple idea: when life gets heavy, we don't eliminate the weight—we learn to carry something equally weighty in the other hand. Not balance. Not denial. But both/and. Together, Jen and Shannan explore what it means to hold grief and joy at the same time, to resist despair without turning away from reality, and to find steady ground in the middle of it all. They talk about community as survival, faith that evolves and expands, and the small, ordinary moments that become lifelines when everything feels overwhelming. This conversation is a fitting close to our Wilderness & Wonder exploration—because if the wilderness strips us down to what's real, Shannan helps us ask: what will hold us up now? If you've been feeling stretched thin, worn down, or just plain tired of carrying it all alone, this episode is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Now, what are the things that are keeping me going? For me, it's clawing for those little tiny moments where we can. I need to see myself take care of myself.” – Shannan Martin “We have to carry a lot of really heavy things in one hand. We don't choose these things. We would never have asked for them. And we can't just put them down. We don't have control over them. We can't just set them aside. So how do we carry these heavy things? We fill the other hand with heavy goodness.” – Shannan Martin “The world feels catastrophic right now. My bowl of curry for lunch cannot cancel that out. There's no amount of beautiful sunsets that can cancel out a diagnosis that nobody wants or these heavy, heavy things that we are tasked with carrying because balance is impossible.” – Shannan Martin “When wholeness is our goal, beauty is our emergency.” – Shannan Martin “Anytime I can disrupt the algorithm, I feel it in my body.” – Shannan Martin “The abundant life is not getting all the things we ever wanted. The abundant life is you get this and this and the task now is to figure out how to carry it.” – Shannan Martin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Counterweights: An Essential Practice for Holding Hope in a Heavy World by Shannan Martin - https://amzn.to/4sRdTRZ David Chang - https://www.instagram.com/davidchang/ 7: An Experimental Mutiny Against Excess by Jen Hatmaker Rainer Maria Rilke - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/rainer-maria-rilke Sara Miles - https://sara-miles.squarespace.com/bio Shannan Martin Book Tour - https://www.shannanmartin.com/counterweights-events Guest's Links: Website - https://www.shannanmartin.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shannanwrites/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/shannan.garbermartin Substack - https://www.shannanmartin.com/newsletter Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we are thrilled to introduce you to a voice we think can really help us navigate some of the big life questions we're facing right now: Suzy Welch. Have you ever wondered, “What should I do with my life?” Or, “Should I stay or should I go?” Or, “Is there anyone out there who actually tells the freaking truth about life and work today, but also does not leave me in despair?” Wonder no more! The “Becoming You” podcast has arrived, hosted by Suzy Welch, the business journalist-turned-professor at the helm of NYU's wildly popular self-discovery class by the same name. A three New York Times best-seller and frequent contributor to the Today Show and the Wall Street Journal, Professor Welch is considered a leading expert on decision-making, and the discovery and pursuit of authentic purpose. Join Suzy every week to laugh, learn, get riled up, get calmed down, and basically get closer to becoming you, joyfully, in this crazy, upside-down, scary, messy, and altogether beautiful world we share. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Sometimes a conversation lands so gently—and so powerfully—that it deserves another moment in the light. In this encore episode, Jen revisits her conversation with poet, writer, and visual artist David Gate, whose work explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience. Jen first discovered David the way so many of us discover the words that change us: late at night on Instagram, stumbling across a poem that made her stop mid-scroll and immediately send it to six friends. That was the beginning of a quiet fandom that eventually turned into this conversation—one that felt less like an interview and more like sitting in the presence of someone who has learned how to notice beauty in hard places. David's work—including his collection A Rebellion of Care—is rooted in the radical idea that tenderness, attention, and compassion are not small acts. They are resistance. They are survival. They are a way through the wilderness. Together, Jen and David explore the ways language can become a lifeline during difficult seasons. They talk about the courage of softness in a harsh world, the sacred practice of paying attention, and how poetry can give us words for things we thought we had to carry alone. This conversation sits right at the intersection: the wilderness of grief, uncertainty, and fatigue—and the wonder that still insists on growing in the cracks. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate “It's a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate “I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate Resources Mentioned in This Episode: A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/ Malaprop's Bookstore, Asheville - https://www.malaprops.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://www.davidgatepoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/davidgatepoet/ Substack - https://substack.com/@davidgatepoet Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Today's bonus episode is a joy from start to finish. We're sitting down with treasured friend Anne Lamott—beloved writer, teacher, and spiritual guide—whose voice has shaped how so many of us think about faith, truth, writing, and what it means to be human on the page. Anne returns to For the Love to talk about her upcoming book, Good Writing, co-written with her husband, journalist and editor Neal Allen. While Neal couldn't join us today, this conversation is very much about the shared work they created together—a book that isn't chasing polish or perfection, but clarity, honesty, and respect for the reader. Good Writing is part craft guide, part philosophy of living. Written in alternating voices, it blends Anne's signature warmth, humor, and spiritual insight with Neal's journalistic precision and discipline. Together, they explore what makes sentences work, how voice is formed, why ego gets in the way, and why clarity is not just a stylistic choice—but an act of generosity. In this intimate and often funny conversation, Jen and Amy talk with Anne about what it was like to co-write a book so closely, what collaboration revealed about trust and restraint, and how writing—at its best—is a relationship. They dig into voice and ego, bad sentences and letting go, rhythm and revision, and why removing what doesn't serve the sentence can feel like both grief and grace. But as always with Anne, the conversation goes deeper than craft. This episode explores writing as a way of being in the world—how attention, humility, and courage shape not only our sentences, but our lives.  If you've ever loved Bird by Bird, wrestled with your inner critic, or longed to tell the truth with a little more care—this conversation is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I only have to do today, today.” – Anne Lamott “We write because we try to tell the truth. We try to share our experience, strength and hope.” – Anne Lamott “Say what you mean. Mean what you say. And don't say it mean.” – Anne Lamott Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4qLZRQR Anne Lamott on Faith, Writing, and Radical Self-Love - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/bonus/anne-lamott-on-faith-writing-and-radical-self-love-2/ Neal Allen - https://www.shapesoftruth.com/ Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences by Neal Allen and Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3NMoKNP Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4t7FteL Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3Z4Nd3r Stanley Tucci on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/stanley-tucci-food-memories-and-emotions/ Amy's Full of Microplastics and Existential Dread Sweatshirt - https://www.threadless.com/shop/@dinomike/design/full-of-microplastics/womens/sweatshirt Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4rlv3Gz Jessica Mitford - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Mitford Tyler Merritt - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt - https://amzn.to/49N1ms8 Better Days: Tame Your Inner Critic by Neal Allen - https://amzn.to/3LTEVs9 A Writing Room - https://awritingroom.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://awritingroom.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annelamott/ Twitter - https://x.com/ANNELAMOTT?lang=en Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnneLamott/ Substack - https://annelamott.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:If parenting has you oscillating between “I've got this” and “I need to lie down immediately,” press play. Today, we're stepping into one of the most humbling arenas for compassion and grace: your own living room. Because fierce compassion isn't just for coworkers and complicated relatives—it's also for the tiny humans melting down over the wrong color cup or the soccer uniform that didn't get washed in time for game day. And it's for YOU, standing there, wondering how you got so activated over this nonsense. Jen and Amy are talking to Mandy Grass—nationally recognized Board-Certified Behavior Analyst, founder of The Family Behaviorist, former teacher, and mom in a blended family of seven kids (ages four to sixteen). Yes, seven. Her house is less “quiet retreat” and more “ongoing behavioral case study.” The data is… robust. For nearly two decades, Mandy has been translating behavior science into practical, no-guilt tools for families. Her central message feels radical in a culture obsessed with control: kids' behavior is communication—not a moral failure. And neither is your exhaustion. In this conversation, we talk about: What Mandy actually hears when parents say, “We've tried everything” How shame and blame sneak into parenting—and how to gently escort them out Why so much of parenting work begins with the parent, not the kid (I know. We had feelings about this too.) And one tiny shift you can make tonight that will cool the temperature at home (no sticker charts required) Here's the truth: we cannot regulate our kids if we are operating at DEFCON 1 ourselves. Fierce compassion means holding boundaries without losing your humanity. It means seeing your child clearly—and offering yourself the same grace when you inevitably lose it over bedtime negotiations. Mandy also shares about her new podcast, The Behavior Blueprint, a grounded, step-by-step guide for parents who are tired of quick fixes and ready for something that actually works in real life—not just on Instagram. It's equal parts instruction, compassion, and “oh thank God, it's not just me.” Take a breath. Your child isn't the problem. You aren't either. And that might be the fiercest compassion of all. Thought-provoking Quotes: "In behavior analysis, every behavior has a function –attention, escape, access to something tangible, and an automatic or a sensory function."– Mandy Grass “Do I have ADHD, anxiety, or am I just a mom?” – Mandy Grass “Our default is take away, take away, take away. And really what we want to do is reinforce the behavior we want to see more of.” – Mandy Grass “You're not gonna get it right every time, but at least it doesn't feel like you have no idea what to do.”– Mandy Grass Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Behavior Blueprint podcast with Mandy Grass - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-behavior-blueprint-with-mandy-grass/id1872526999 Too Much Junk on Your Social Media Feeds? I'll Show You How to Clean It Up - https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/too-much-junk-on-your-social-media-feeds-ill-show-you-how-to-clean-it-up?test_uuid=04IpBmWGZleS0I0J3epvMrC&test_variant=A Guest's Links: Website - https://www.thefamilybehaviorist.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thefamilybehaviorist Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560942080087 Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@thefamilybehaviorist TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilybehaviorist Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-behavior-blueprint-with-mandy-grass/id1872526999 Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What if you were handed a single piece of information that could change everything you think you know about your life? For this Jen Hatmaker Book Club episode, Jen sits down with novelist Nikki Erlick, author of the wildly imaginative and deeply human novel The Measure—a story that asks one unsettling question: What would you do if you knew exactly how long you had to live? In The Measure, every adult in the world receives a small wooden box containing a string that reveals the length of their life. What follows isn't chaos for chaos' sake, but something far more intimate: marriages tested, dreams deferred or pursued, fears amplified, and love redefined. It's a novel about mortality, yes—but even more so about meaning, choice, and how we show up for one another when certainty is stripped away. Jen and Nikki talk about the origin of this unforgettable premise, the emotional weight of writing about death in order to illuminate life, and why the book resonates so deeply with readers navigating grief, anxiety, hope, and big unanswered questions. They explore what The Measure reveals about how we value time, how fear can quietly shape our decisions, and what it might look like to live more honestly—even without guarantees. Whether you've already read along with the book club or are just encountering this story for the first time, this conversation invites you to reflect on your own “measure”—and to consider how love, courage, and presence might matter more than the number of days themselves. This episode is tender, thought-provoking, and quietly life-altering. Come for the story. Stay for the questions it leaves you asking long after the last page. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I was preoccupied with these big questions in life, the things that don't have easy answers or any answers at all. Why do people have different fates? Why do bad things happen to good people? How much power do we actually have over our lives? That inspired me.” – Nikki Erlick “My process felt like people knocking on the door to my brain at all times, being like, what about me? What about me? I would be an interesting story too. I had to answer the first couple of knocks and bring these new characters in. Once I hit eight or 10, I felt like readers can't handle any more than this.” – Nikki Erlick “I wanted to pull on everything, for every community that has been marginalized to make this experience feel real for the people in this book.” – Nikki Erlick “The one thing that doesn't go out of style is hope.”– Nikki Erlick Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Measure: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/3OmiJaK The Poppy Fields: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/49ZxdGf Allen Bradley, author - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/ Sandwich: A Novel by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4a0bOwB Catherine Newman on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/august-2025-catherine-newmans-sandwich/ Wreck by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4bvUy3o This Is Not About Us by Allegra Goodman - https://amzn.to/4qnGIE3 Guest's Links: Website - https://www.nikkierlick.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nikkierlick/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Many of us were taught that desire is dangerous—something to manage, suppress, or feel ashamed of. But what if desire isn't the problem at all? What if it's not just about sex or attraction, but about the places we feel most alive? Today, Jen and Amy sit down with FTL fan-favorite Jay Stringer, a licensed therapist and author whose work helps people understand the deeper stories shaping their desires—especially the ones we've been taught to hide, or silence. Drawing from his powerful new book Desire, Jay reframes desire not as a moral failure or impulse to eliminate, but as a signal worth listening to—one that points us toward what formed us, what wounded us, and what we are still longing for beneath the surface. Jay shifts the focus from behavior modification to understanding the story behind desire—for intimacy, success, escape, creativity, or belonging—shaped by early attachment, trauma, and unmet needs. The conversation moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" turning desire from shame into meaning. This is not a conversation about labeling or fixing yourself. It's about understanding yourself—how your story formed you, and how listening to what brings you to life can lead toward freedom, wholeness, and deeper connection.  This episode also serves as the opening doorway into our Wilderness & Wonder series. In a season when many of us are navigating uncertainty—spiritually, relationally, or internally—this episode grounds us in the idea that exploration isn't aimlessness, but formation. That the wilderness can be a teacher. And that desire itself may be one of the quiet guides helping us stay awake, curious, and present as we learn how to live inside the questions. This is a gentle conversation, but it's also a brave one. And we're really glad you're here for it. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Desire is a navigational term from Latin that means ‘lack of a star'. I'm looking into the skies, trying to find this new direction. How do I get home in the midst of all this wandering, all this misery that I feel like I'm in?” – Jay Stringer “When did you last feel alive? When did you feel connected to your body, connected to others? That's the essence of desire that we're trying to get back to.” – Jay Stringer “The antidote to shame is really developing some curiosity for it.” – Jay Stringer Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Harper's Magazine | Who Goes Nazi? by Dorothy Thompson - https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow by Jay Stringer - https://amzn.to/4buLADD Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing by Jay Stringer - https://www.amazon.com/Unwanted-Sexual-Brokenness-Reveals-Healing/dp/1631466720 Annie Dillard - https://www.anniedillard.com/ Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/ Alex Honnold climbs Taipei 101 skyscraper without ropes - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/video/alex-honnold-climbs-taipei-101-skyscraper-ropes-129537771 Bill Plotkin - https://www.animas.org/about-us/our-founder/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3LTorjM Stanzas from the Grande Chartreuse by Matthew Arnold - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43605/stanzas-from-the-grande-chartreuse Jon Batiste - jonbatiste.com Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Dacher Keltner, PhD - https://www.dacherkeltner.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://jay-stringer.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jay_stringer_/ Twitter - https://x.com/_jaystringer Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JayStringerUnwanted# Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What does it look like to strive ardently for justice and equality without losing yourself in the process? Today, Jen sits down with Norah O'Donnell—award-winning journalist, anchor, and managing editor of the CBS Evening News—for a conversation about courage, compassion, and the women who have quietly shaped the arc of American history. Norah's new book, We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America, uncovers the stories of women who refused to disappear: printers and poets, doctors and intellectuals, community builders and policymakers, women who risked safety, status, and belonging to tell the truth, expand freedom, and insist that dignity belongs to everyone. In this episode, we reflect on what these lives reveal about compassion—not as sentiment, but as action. Jen, Amy, and Norah talk about the indomitable women who made justice visible, who challenged power without losing their moral center, and who built systems of care that outlived them. The conversation also turns inward, as Norah reflects on her own career as one of the most trusted voices in American broadcast journalism, regularly asking hard questions in public spaces and of people in positions of power. This is a conversation about fierce compassion—the kind that tells the truth, draws boundaries, builds community, and refuses erasure. It's an invitation to remember the women who came before us, and to consider how we might carry their courage forward in our own time. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I think that journalists are doing an incredible job right now under really tough circumstances. But they're bringing to light what the power of the federal government, what the power of state governments and others are doing, and allowing the electorate to be informed so that they can get involved, they can vote, they can be energized, and each of us can be part of this great American democracy.” – Norah O'Donnell “I do believe we need more women in government and more women in positions of power.” - Norah O'Donnell “I'm in the business of information not affirmation.” – Norah O'Donnell “Women have been at the forefront of helping to bend that arc towards justice. Women have crashed through the educational glass ceiling. More women get degrees than men. Women have the right to vote and they do vote in greater numbers than men. So when are we gonna see this tipping point? I keep waiting for that in my lifetime.” – Norah O'Donnell Resources Mentioned in This Episode: We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America by Norah O'Donnell - https://amzn.to/4keE2Hb We The Women Tour  - https://www.wethewomenbook.com/about CBS News | Norah O'Donnell - https://www.cbsnews.com/team/norah-odonnell/ The Six Triple Eight | Netflix - https://www.netflix.com/title/81590591 Mary McLeod Bethune Statue - https://www.aoc.gov/explore-capitol-campus/art/mary-mcleod-bethune-statue The Declaration of Sentiments - https://www.nps.gov/wori/learn/historyculture/declaration-of-sentiments.htm Guest's Links: Website - https://www.cbsnews.com/team/norah-odonnell/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/norahodonnell/ Twitter - https://x.com/NorahODonnell Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/norahodonnell/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@norahodonnell?lang=en Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Description: What happens when the life you've been managing no longer fits? Jen Hatmaker sits down with Nedra Glover Tawwab, Emily Nagoski, Kobe Campbell, and Kate Bowler for an honest conversation about what it really means to wake up in midlife. Together, they explore where awakening often shows up first—our relationships, bodies, mental health, and faith. This isn't about fixing yourself. It's about noticing what's shifting, understanding why it feels disruptive, and realizing you're not alone. From boundaries and burnout to anxiety, trauma, body shame, and faith after certainty, this episode offers language and clarity for women navigating midlife change with courage. If you've ever thought, Something's changing—and I don't know what to do with it, this conversation is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “You're not broken. You're paying attention.” — Jen Hatmaker “Midlife clarity isn't cruelty. It's information.” — Nedra Glover Tawwab “Healing doesn't mean you stop feeling. It means your responses finally make sense.” — Kobe Campbell “Anxiety can bring clarity—but it's not meant to be the fuel forever.” — Kobe Campbell “You don't complete stress by thinking it through. You complete it by letting it move through your body.” — Emily Nagoski “Certainty falling away doesn't mean faith is gone. It means it's growing up.” — Kate Bowler Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself by Nedra Glover Tawwab – https://amzn.to/4rhSzofThe Balancing Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself by Nedra Glover Tawwab – https://amzn.to/46cF4hgCome As You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life by Emily Nagoski – https://www.amazon.com/Come-You-Are-Surprising-Transform/dp/1982165316/ Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski – https://amzn.to/3MgTXIK Why Am I Like This?: How to Break Cycles, Heal from Trauma, and Restore Your Faith by Kobe Campbell – https://amzn.to/4qIMqR9 Joyful, Anyway by Kate Bowler – https://amzn.to/3MdyfW3 Everything Happens podcast with Kate Bowler – https://katebowler.com/podcasts/ Nedra's Links: Website - https://www.nedratawwab.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nedratawwab/-  Substack - https://nedratawwab.substack.com/ Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-to-hear-this-with-nedra-tawwab/id1686288228 Emily's Links: Website - https://www.emilynagoski.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/enagoski/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/emilynagoskiphd/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@emilynagoski Substack - https://substack.com/@emilynagoski Podcast - https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/come-as-you-are Kobe's Links: Website - https://kobecampbell.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kobecampbell_/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TheKobeCampbell/ Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheKobeCampbell Substack - https://substack.com/@kobecampbell Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-healing-circle-podcast-with-kobe-campbell/id1448504061 Kate's Links: Website - https://katebowler.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katecbowler/ Twitter - https://x.com/katecbowler Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/katecbowler Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf8m7lNdR7YVieU0muCg5cg TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@katecbowler Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/katecbowler/ Substack - https://katebowler.substack.com/ Podcast - https://katebowler.com/podcasts/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:  Jen revisits this fan favorite episode with Mel Robbins. Buckle up, listeners.  It was only a matter of time before our paths crossed with Mel Robbins, one of the most respected experts on change and motivation in the zeitgeist, and today is that day. Known for being the host of the #1 ranking education podcast in the world, bringing deeply relatable topics, tactical advice, tools, and compelling conversations to her audiences, Jen and Amy spend today's hour diving into Mel's “Let Them” theory, which is taking the world by storm, already delivering instant peace and freedom in the lives and relationships of people putting it into practice. Together, they discuss: The difference between “Let Them” and “Let Me” Learning to release the white-knuckle grip we hold over other people's behavior (and other things beyond our control) Reframing disappointment to view it as a gift (yes, it's possible!) Repositioning self-worth inward, rather than leaving it dependent on others' opinions. Thought-provoking Quotes: “For a lot of women, we spend so much time upstairs in our heads as people-pleasers and over-analyzers, over-thinking and ruminating, trying to get things perfect. That's the last place I should be, personally. I need to drop into my body and get out of my head.” – Mel Robbins “People reveal who they are and what they care about through their behavior. Ignore their words. Watch their behavior. Let people be who they are. Let them do what they're going to do. Focusing on them is not where your power is.” – Mel Robbins “The difference between ‘not my business' and ‘let them' is worlds apart. When you say, ‘not my business', you're scolding yourself. With, ‘let them', you're in the power position because you see what's happening and are choosing to allow it without allowing it. You're rising above it.” – Mel Robbins Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Demotivators - https://despair.com/collections/ Effin Birds on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/effinbirds/ Van Morrison - https://www.vanmorrison.com/ No Hard Feelings by the Avett Brothers - https://open.spotify.com/track/0bgQ1hQrpP6ScdBZlDfLE2 Foo Fighters - https://foofighters.com/ DePeche Mode - https://www.depechemode.com/ The Cure - https://www.thecure.com/ Taylor Swift - https://www.taylorswift.com/ The 5 Second Rule: Transform Your Life, Work, and Confidence with Everyday Courage by Mel Robbins - https://amzn.to/427OHwu The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can't Stop Talking About by Mel Robbins - https://amzn.to/4hc53bE The Mel Robbins Podcast - https://www.melrobbins.com/podcast The Four Questions: For Henny Penny and Anybody with Stressful Thoughts by Byron Katie - https://amzn.to/3C7tKXT My Legacy Podcast - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-my-legacy-podcast-255793246/ Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl - https://amzn.to/4ajbyaz Dr. Stuart Ablon - https://www.stuartablon.com/ The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life by Mark Manson - https://amzn.to/3PCqxmi Guest's Links: Website - https://www.melrobbins.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins Twitter - https://x.com/melrobbins Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@melrobbins Podcast - https://www.melrobbins.com/podcast/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When Listeners Say, “Me Too”: Finding Familiarity in Shared Stories – A Listener Voicemail Episode Description:In this special listener voicemail episode, Jen and Amy turn the mic outward—listening closely to the voices, stories, and wisdom of the community that makes this show what it is. From reflections sparked by our Wake Up Call season to deeply personal responses to Jen's book Awake, these messages trace a powerful throughline: what happens when we begin to tell the truth about our lives—and make space for who we're becoming. Listeners share how conversations with Lee C. Camp, John Fugelsang, Melani Sanders, and Chrissy King stirred something awake in them, naming long-held questions around faith, body, identity, and courage. Others call in to reflect on the uncanny resonance of Awake, beginning again and again with the same line: “Jen, our stories are very similar.” This episode is tender, funny, and honest—a reminder that none of us are doing this work alone. It's about waking up, letting go, finding language for the ache, and choosing what comes next—together. If you've ever wondered whether your voice matters here, this episode is your answer. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Our stories are very similar—and hearing that out loud made me realize I'm not behind. I'm just in it.” – FTL Listener “I didn't know how much I needed someone to say, ‘You're allowed to change your mind,' until this season.” – FTL Listener “That episode felt like someone finally put words to the questions I've been carrying quietly.” – FTL Listener “Something in me relaxed when I heard someone else say it first.” – FTL Listener Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Beyond Words: Listening to a Hidden Community — Ky Dickens and The Telepathy Tapes - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/unlocking-the-secrets-of-consciousness-and-telepathy-ky-dickens-and-the-telepathy-tapes/ The Telepathy Tapes podcast - https://thetelepathytapes.com/ Rick Rubin - https://x.com/RickRubin Elizabeth Gilbert - https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/ Human Flourishing in a Distracted World: Theologian Lee C. Camp Offers a Wake Up Call To Living Well - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/human-flourishing-in-a-distracted-world-theologian-lee-c-camp-offers-a-wake-up-call-to-living-well/ Love Over Dominance: John Fugelsang on the Future of Christianity - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/love-over-dominance-john-fugelsang-on-the-future-of-christianity/ Social Media Sensation Melani Sanders Reminds Us That We Are Enough and We Do Not Care - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/social-media-sensation-melani-sanders-reminds-us-that-we-are-enough-and-we-do-not-care/ Wake Up Call: Your Body Was Never the Problem with Body Liberation Advocate, Chrissy King - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/wake-up-call-your-body-was-never-the-problem-with-body-liberation-advocate-chrissy-king/ Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, Jen is joined by novelist Eliana Ramage to talk about her stunning debut, To the Moon and Back—a book that is as page-turny as it is tender, and as expansive as it is rooted. Jen and Eliana trace the actual arc of this book—how it began with an unforgettable spark of an idea at Dartmouth (about an “astronaut girl” who shows us that our stories aren't static, and neither are our people) and how, over more than a decade, that idea became a novel about ambition, belonging, identity, and the complicated, beautiful gravity of connection. In this conversation, Jen and Eliana explore a story centered on a young woman unraveling in the aftermath of loss, navigating complicated relationships, spiritual longing, and the quiet ache of wanting more than the life she's been handed. They dig into the women at the center of the novel—the ones you'll root for, the ones who will frustrate you (hi, ambition), and the ones who will linger long after you close the cover—and they unpack why the ending matters: not because it ties everything into neat bows, but because it honors what's true. Because in real life, healing doesn't land with fireworks. It lands with honesty. With restraint. With the choice to keep loving, even when certainty has slipped through our fingers. This is a conversation about grieving honestly, questioning inherited beliefs, and staying awake to your own life. It's about learning that connection matters more than performance—and trusting that the long arc of love and healing is still unfolding. Whether you're reading along with the book club or simply craving a thoughtful, soulful conversation to start the new year, this episode invites you to slow down, feel deeply, and remember: even in loss, even in doubt, we are still reaching—toward connection, toward each other, and back to ourselves. Thought-provoking Quotes: “This is a story about women who are trying to understand who they are and move forward together after making some mistakes. That's where I definitely am right now. And if I could just finish this one thing that has been so hard for so many years, then it would be the first time I had done something that I could be really proud of.” – Eliana Ramage “I think in real life, you don't need to know that everything is all gonna be figured out at once. You need to land the plane on what matters. I don't think any of us, for our own lives, feel like we have that written out. And so there's some wiggle room on where we could go next, I think.”– Eliana Ramage “It's become kind of a ritual to ask myself,  can you believe that you're doing this job because your wildest dreams came true?”– Eliana Ramage Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Avid Reader Press - https://avidreaderpress.com/ Fancy Lunch - https://tinyurl.com/3uyuxryf Joyride: A Memoir by Susan Orlean - https://amzn.to/49vTrhC The Uncool: A Memoir by Cameron Crowe - https://amzn.to/3LFmd7n Lily King - https://lilykingbooks.com/ Reese Witherspoon book club pick - September 2025 - https://reesesbookclub.com/book/to-the-moon-and-back/ Mid-America All Indian Center, Wichita, KS - https://www.theindianmuseum.org/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4swRPg9 Parnassus Books - https://parnassusbooks.net/ Ring of Salt: A Memoir of Finding Home and Hope on the Wild Coast of Ireland by Betsy Cornwell - https://amzn.to/3Z9qtPu I'll Tell You When I'm Home by Hala Alyan - https://amzn.to/4bof7yr Guest's Links: Website - https://www.elianaramage.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/elianaramage/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Today we're talking about something most of us sideline, postpone, or avoid entirely until life forces our hand: MONEY. This is a topic our host Jen Hatmaker knows all too well. For years, Jen let her then husband handle all of the bills, the budgeting, the taxes, the investments, everything. When she walked through divorce in midlife, she had to start from zero. It was humbling, terrifying, and ultimately deeply empowering. We're thrilled to bring you today's guest: Jean Chatzky, bestselling author, Emmy-winning financial journalist, CEO of HerMoney, and host of the hugely popular HerMoney Podcast. Jean is one of America's most trusted voices on personal finance, with decades spent breaking down complicated concepts into simple, actionable steps—especially for women who have historically been excluded from financial conversations.   In this discussion, we go straight to the questions so many of us have but don't know how to ask: Where do you even start if finances feel overwhelming? How do you build confidence around money after years of letting someone else handle it? What does stability actually look like in midlife, especially for women navigating divorce, caregiving, career transitions, or reinvention? We talk about the mechanics of getting your financial life organized, and the emotional stories women carry around worth, fear, and permission. Jean offers grounding guidance you can act on today—whether it's tackling debt, starting to invest, or finally creating some safety and agency around your money. If you've ever felt late to the financial game, intimidated by jargon, or unsure how to build security for the next chapter—this episode will meet you with compassion, clarity, and courage. Jean is a generous teacher, and we cannot wait for you to learn from her. Thought-provoking Quotes: “This is one of those things that we absolutely can blame on our parents because we weren't raised in homes necessarily where women took the lead on finances. And we tend to model what we grew up with.” – Jean Chatzky “Women are an army of perfectionists and many of us don't like to do things until we know that we can do them correctly. And with money, there are some things where I can give you an answer. But if you ask me what's the best stock or what's the best mutual fund or what's the best investment strategy, I can give you an answer that's worked historically, but I can't give you a perfect answer. And a lot of us are just not comfortable with that.” – Jean Chatzky “I've been around a lot of people who've made a lot of money mistakes that are solvable. The one that's not solvable is not starting, because if you ask any older woman, what they wish they had done differently where their money is concerned, a hundred of them are gonna tell you, I wish I had started investing earlier.” – Jean Chatzky Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jean Chatzky's HerMoney Podcast – https://hermoney.com/t/podcasts/ From Financially In the Dark to Fully In Control: Jen Hatmaker's Wake-Up Call – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-financially-in-the-dark-to-fully-in-control-jen/id1098802558?i=1000740622343 Monarch money management app – https://www.monarch.com/ Rocket Money –https://www.rocketmoney.com/ Openbank High Yield Savings account – https://secureapply.openbank.us/savings/intro/welcome Guest's Links: Website - https://hermoney.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jeanchatzky Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JeanChatzky/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@jeanchatzky Podcast - https://hermoney.com/t/podcasts/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Many of us were taught that strength looks like independence. Don't need too much. Don't ask for help. Don't lean on others. And then—somewhere along the way—we find ourselves lonely, exhausted, or quietly resentful, wondering why connection feels so hard and so heavy at the same time. We want closeness, but we're afraid of needing too much. We want support, but we don't know how to ask for it without losing ourselves.   Today's guest is someone who has helped millions of people name that tension—and find a gentler, healthier way forward. Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist, relationship expert, and New York Times bestselling author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace and Drama Free. With more than fifteen years of clinical experience, she has become one of the most trusted voices in modern mental health, helping people navigate boundaries, attachment, emotional health, and sustainable connection in real, everyday life.   Nedra ‘s work consistently meets people with clarity, compassion, and deep respect for how hard relationships can be. Her new book, The Balancing Act, invites us to rethink what healthy connection actually looks like—not as hyper-independence or over-functioning, but as learning how to depend on one another without disappearing in the process.   In this conversation, we talk about:  - The major attachment styles and how they quietly shape our relationships- Why so many of us confuse independence with emotional health - The dependency spectrum—and how to recognize where we're over- or under-functioning - When closeness crosses into enmeshment, and how to find your way back - Gentle, practical first steps toward healthy dependency and asking for help We honestly could not think of a better person to help us wake up in the area of mental health. This conversation is tender, honest, and deeply freeing—and it offers language for places you may have felt stuck, tired, or alone for a long time. You are not broken. You are learning how to connect.   Thought-provoking Quotes:  ★ “You can be conflict-avoidant and peace-positive.” – Nedra Tawwab ★ “We have to allow people to exist as they are. And sometimes that's not in the same way as we exist.” – Nedra Tawwab ★ “The connection you're seeking is on the other side of your discomfort.” – Nedra Tawwab Resources Mentioned in This Episode:  ➢ The Balancing Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself by Nedra Tawwab – https://amzn.to/3Z77GEC ➢ Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself by Nedra Tawwab - https://amzn.to/49q8zg8 ➢ Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships by Nedra Tawwab - https://amzn.to/4b3cSkh ➢ Nedra's Quizzes - https://www.nedratawwab.com/quizzes Guest's Links: Website - https://www.nedratawwab.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/?hl=en Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nedratawwab/ Substack - https://nedratawwab.substack.com/ Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-to-hear-this-with-nedra-tawwab/id1686288228   Connect with Jen! Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Sometimes a wake up call doesn't arrive as a crisis. Sometimes it arrives as a quiet realization: the way I'm living isn't actually working. In this encore episode, we revisit a powerful conversation with James Clear, bestselling author of Atomic Habits, whose work has helped millions rethink how real, lasting change actually happens. Not through willpower, reinvention, or overnight transformation—but through the small, often invisible choices we make every day. This conversation is a wake up call to the myth of “someday”, a wake up call to waiting for motivation before we act, and a wake up call to the belief that big change requires big drama. James breaks down why habits are less about self-discipline and more about identity, environment, and systems—and how the patterns we repeat, often unconsciously, are shaping our lives for better or worse. Together, we explore how paying attention to what we practice daily can wake us up to the lives we're actually building. If you're standing at the edge of change—feeling stuck in patterns you can't seem to break, exhausted by self-improvement cycles, or longing for a more sustainable way forward—this episode offers a grounded, hopeful reset. Let this be your wake up call to begin again, not perfectly, not dramatically, but honestly, intentionally, and one doable step at a time. Thought-provoking Quotes: “The most powerful change doesn't happen when you decide to achieve a goal—it happens when you decide to become a different kind of person. Every small habit is a vote for the identity you're building, and over time those votes add up to who you believe you are.” — James Clear “You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.” — James Clear “If you can get 1% better every day for one year, you'll end up thirty-seven times better.” — James Clear “Fix the inputs, and the outputs will fix themselves.” — James Clear “The goal isn't to run a marathon. It's to become a runner.” — James Clear “Lasting change isn't about doing something perfectly or dramatically. It's about showing up consistently in small ways, even when it feels insignificant, because that consistency is what makes transformation inevitable.”— James Clear Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear - https://amzn.to/4pQLrh6 James Clear's 3-2-1 Newsletter - https://jamesclear.com/3-2-1 Guest's Links: Website - https://jamesclear.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesclear/ Twitter - https://x.com/jamesclear Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jamesclear Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:This is your wake up call: your body was never the problem. By midlife, so many women are exhausted—not just by life, but by decades of being told to manage, fix, discipline, and override our bodies. Wellness culture promised health and control. What it often delivered was shame, disconnection, and the quiet belief that rest, ease, and joy had to be earned. Today's conversation asks us to wake up to something different. Chrissy King is a writer, educator, and body liberation advocate whose work exposes the harm baked into diet and fitness culture and offers a radically more honest path forward. One rooted in consent instead of control. Trust instead of punishment. Listening instead of fixing. In this Wake Up Call episode, Chrissy opens our eyes to what happens when we stop treating our bodies like projects and start treating them like partners—especially in midlife, when our bodies are changing and asking us to pay attention. We unpack why rest is a biological need (not a reward), and how relearning how to listen can be a form of liberation. This is a wake up call to the truth we've ignored: the body knows. It knows when something isn't working. It knows when we're depleted. It knows what it needs next. And when we learn to trust that wisdom—not just individually, but collectively—we don't just heal our relationship with our bodies, we change the story entirely. If your body has been tapping you on the shoulder, this episode is your invitation to listen. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Society has conditioned women to put all of our value, effort, and energy into being the smallest version of ourselves possible. Then we have to spend the second half of our lives trying to unlearn that.” – Chrissy King “In ancient art, we see these big, beautiful bodies being immortalized and looked at as beautiful. So, how did we get to this point where we're demonizing people in larger bodies?” – Chrissy King “I think falling in love yourself is the most beautiful love story of all time.” - Chrissy King “The focus can't just be, do I feel good in my body? The focus has to be, is anybody in any body able to feel safe and respected and exist in their body free of harm? That's what the modern body positivity movement is really missing.” - Chrissy King “I think that we have to accept what our abilities are today, that what our bodies look like today is what it looks like today and tomorrow could be completely different. Bodies are designed to change.” - Chrissy King Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4qoLTnZ The Body Liberation Project: How Understanding Racism and Diet Culture Helps Cultivate Joy and Build Collective Freedom by Chrissy King - https://amzn.to/49m6TWn The Body is Not an Apology: The Power of Radical Self-Love by Sonya Renne Taylor - https://amzn.to/3YJyfQ9 Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia by Dr. Sabrina Strings - https://amzn.to/49rmeoA White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo - https://amzn.to/3NyO75z Be The Bridge organization - https://bethebridge.com/  We Were Never Meant to Have Universal Healthcare by Dr. Jessica Knurick - https://drjessicaknurick.substack.com/p/we-were-never-meant-to-have-universal Guest's Links: Website - https://chrissyking.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/iamchrissyking/ Twitter - https://x.com/iamchrissyking TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@iamchrissyking Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ChrissyKingFitness/ Substack - https://chrissyking.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Today, we're stepping into the candlelit, corseted world of Victorian England with New York Times bestselling author Madeline Martin—a master of emotionally rich, meticulously researched historical fiction. Madeline's novels (The Last Bookshop in London, The Librarian Spy, The Keeper of Hidden Books) have introduced millions of readers to hidden corners of history where ordinary people wield books as lifelines, rebellion, and hope. Her latest work and our December JHBC pick, The Secret Book Society, is no exception. Set in an era when women were warned that reading could “inflame the imagination,” The Secret Book Society follows Lady Duxbury—a thrice-widowed countess trailed by scandalous whispers—who covertly gathers a small circle of women for tea…and contraband literature. What begins as shared curiosity blooms into a daring underground society where women read the stories they've been forbidden, claim a power they've been denied, and build the kind of sisterhood that can spark a quiet revolution. In this conversation, we pull back the velvet curtain on: how real Victorian restrictions inspired her fictional rebellion the archival rabbit holes that uncovered surprising truths about women, reading, and resistance the power of “found family” in times of surveillance, judgment, and constraint why stories become sanctuaries when the world demands silence Thought-provoking Quotes: “Reading can really provide such lightness in dark times.” – Madeline Martin “Every book that I've written, I have been to the location where it is set. And I've been able to get that really wonderful firsthand experience of being there. I feel like it takes this black and white world and colors it in this really vivid, wonderful way that lets me accurately convey it onto the book for hopefully what makes for a very evocative read for the reader.” –  Madeline Martin “If you read a book and it's so good you can't put it down, you read it over the course of a weekend, and you can viscerally recall every part of that story, from what the character drank and ate, to what they wore, to that snarky little one-liner that they gave the antagonist. But if you took six months to read that book, you might have a different experience. So for me, when I get to write that book in one month, it's like I'm living in their skin, and I'm living in their heads.” – Madeline Martin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Outlander by Diana Gabaldon - https://amzn.to/4iv5e3C The Last Bookshop in London: A Novel of World War II by Madeline Martin - https://amzn.to/4pKU0uq For the Love: Fighting for Grace in a World of Impossible Standards by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/48AqikP A Time of Witches: A Novel by Madeline Martin – https://amzn.to/3MBpnJl The Forgotten Pages by Madeline Martin – coming 2027 Goodreads 2025 Reading Challenge – https://www.goodreads.com/readingchallenges?ref=rc_summerreading_25 The Hope Keeper: A Novel by Heather Webb –https://amzn.to/48uJkc2 The Lotus Shoes: A Novel by Jane Yang – https://amzn.to/447ANuy Guest's Links: Website - https://madelinemartin.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/madelinemmartin/ Twitter - https://x.com/MadelineMMartin Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MadelineMartinAuthor Pinterest - https://www.instagram.com/madelinemmartin/ Substack - https://authormadelinemartin.substack.com/subscribe Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:Buckle up, friends — today's episode is a whole ride in the best possible way. Our guest is Melani Sanders, the founder of the global We Do Not Care Movement™, a viral sisterhood of women who are reclaiming humor, agency, and sanity in the absolute circus that is perimenopause, menopause, and midlife. Melani went from full-time mom of three to an overnight cultural phenomenon when a candid little reel she posted — “If you are in perimenopause, menopause, and beyond and simply do not care much anymore, let me hear from you” — blew up the internet and awakened millions of women who said, “Oh… same.” What began as one moment of honesty became a movement, a community, and now a book called The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook, A hysterectomy in 2024 sent Melani into early perimenopause, and suddenly everything she knew about her mind and body went off the rails. A meltdown in a Whole Foods parking lot became her personal wake-up call — the moment she stopped spiraling, started laughing, and began telling the unvarnished truth about hormone chaos, identity shifts, brain fog, midlife rage, caregiving, and the mental load women carry without complaint. In today's conversation, we talk about what perimenopause really feels like, how midlife reshapes our relationships and self-perception, and why humor can be a lifeline when your hormones are staging a coup. We also explore what it looks like to drop shame, release the pressure to hold it all together, and embrace this wild, transformative season with honesty, community, and a big ol' dose of “we simply do not care.” If you're in perimenopause, menopause, or that hazy middle place where your brain, body, and identity are all renegotiating the terms — this episode will feel like being seen and understood. Melani is a treasure, and we cannot wait for you to meet her. Thought-provoking Quotes: “When you get off your period, you have maybe a good week and a half where you can laugh and engage with everyone. But with perimenopause and menopause and beyond, it's every day.  So, if I throw a shoe, I'm sorry. I did what I did, you know? Lock me up.” – Melani Sanders “I can't niche down because I'm too freaking much.” – Melani Sanders “I'm not big on attention. I don't want all eyes on me. I'm typically the mom that will set things up and make it beautiful and then sit at the back of the room where you'll never know that it's me. I want to be able to open the door for my sisters and while they go out there and do it.” – Melani Sanders “Humor can be so healing. We need it. The second we lose our ability to laugh, we are in real trouble.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: We Do Not Care Club – https://wedonotcareclub.com/ The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook: A Hot-Mess Guide for Women in Perimenopause, Menopause, and Beyond Who Are Over It by Melani Sanders – https://amzn.to/3MC9BxS Ashwagandha Supplement – https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/grocery/search?k=ashwagandha+supplements Harper Collins, Harvest imprint – https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/harvest The We Do Not Care Movement - A Glimpse Into How It All Started – https://www.facebook.com/melani.sanders/videos/1445359516454880/ Guest's Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/justbeingmelani/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/melani.sanders/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@justbeingmelani Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What happens after the dream you built your life around ends? In today's tender and searching conversation, Jen and Amy sit down with acclaimed novelist Ben Markovits to talk about his forthcoming book, The Rest of Our Lives—a story that lingers in the quiet spaces of midlife, marriage, parenting, friendship, and the quiet reckonings that arrive when the future you imagined no longer fits. The book is so spectacular, it has been shortlisted as a finalist for the illustrious Booker Prize. Together, the trio explores what happens when the life you worked toward doesn't quite deliver what you expected—and how that reckoning ripples through family, intimacy, and identity. Ben speaks honestly about ambition, and the grief of letting go of former selves, while also naming the surprising beauty found in showing up for the people you love in ordinary, unglamorous moments. He and Jen talk about the similarities between the fictional story that he wrote and the real-life account that Jen penned in Awake.  This episode is for anyone standing in the middle of their life, caring for children or parents (or both), wondering how to hold disappointment without becoming hardened—and how to love the life in front of you without pretending it's easy. It's a conversation about endurance, tenderness, and the brave, ongoing work of choosing one another as the years keep unfolding. If you've ever asked yourself, Is this really it?—and then quietly hoped the answer might still be no, not yet—this one is for you. Thought-provoking Quotes: “The author of Anatomy of a Murder said that writing a novel is like driving on a mountain road late at night. You should know where you're trying to get to, and you should be able to see 30 yards in advance.  I guess I have some sense of where I want to get to and then I spend a lot of time watching the next 30 yards.” – Ben Markovits “I like to write about characters who feel like the place they have made for themselves in the world doesn't totally express their sense of who they are.” – Ben Markovits I love the way you write all the backstories of everything because I'm someone who wants to ask 20 questions about what was the furniture in the in-laws beach house like and how did that shape the family dynamic that he married into? Which if you, if you ask all those questions, you sound a little crazy. But actually, you answered all of my questions as I was reading. – Amy Hardin “At a certain point in marriage, you have your fingerprints all over each other.” – Ben Markovits “I love when characters are human, flawed, curious, confused, just really working out their own story. I'm drawn to stories like that that aren't necessarily tidy.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Rest of Our Lives: A Novel by Ben Markovits – https://amzn.to/4qanlhM The Booker Prizes | Ben Markovits – https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/authors/ben-markovits Anatomy of a Murder by Robert Traver – https://amzn.to/3YAUTKc Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/4qaARlw Phineas Redux by Anthony Trollope – https://amzn.to/4qiOPSN Starting Out by Ben Markovits – https://www.faber.co.uk/journal/faber-announces-the-acquisition-of-a-new-novel-by-ben-markovits/#:~:text=It%20will%20be%20published%20in,' New York Times – out 12/21 Atlantic Excerpt –  The Rest of Our Lives Book Tour – https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Rest-of-Our-Lives/Ben-Markovits/9781668231562 Guest's Links: Website - https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Ben-Markovits/250699726 Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:What if the most faithful thing we could do right now is simply pay attention? In this episode of For the Love, Jen and Amy sit down with theologian, ethics professor, and artist Lee C. Camp for a soulful conversation about the kind of faith that wakes us up to what truly matters. As part of our Wake Up Call series on faith, Lee invites us to slow down and notice the world—our lives, our neighbors, and the beauty that keeps trying to reach us. Together, they explore why paying attention is not a luxury but a spiritual practice—and how our obsession with productivity, planning, and certainty can cause us to miss the most beautiful and formative parts of our lives. Lee reflects on what it means to know ourselves as deeply beloved by God, not because of what we produce but because love is the starting point of a life well lived. This conversation traces the threads of human flourishing and imagination, and asks why beauty—found in art, nature, poetry, and story—often teaches us more about God than arguments ever could. As he often does on his own No Small Endeavor podcast, Lee challenges us to consider what Christians are being called to wake up to in this season: a renewed attention to community, to creation, and to a church that is something we practice together, not merely something we attend. If you're longing for a faith that feels grounded, spacious, and alive—one that helps you live a good life in the world you actually inhabit—this episode is a gentle, necessary wake-up call. Thought-provoking Quotes: “What Christianity most needs right now is to rediscover the basics of the beautiful story which we claim to believe.” – Lee C. Camp The model of the cross means that if we take up our cross and follow Christ, that we can expect difficulty because so much of human history doesn't want that kind of way. Religious powers don't want that. Imperialist powers don't want that. And so we can trust that we're going to have our own kind of crosses to bear along the way. And yet that life has triumphed over death. That love has triumphed over hatred. that beauty and truth and goodness has triumphed over hostility and ugliness and meanness. And so that's the big story.” – Lee C. Camp I deeply understand why a lot of people just can't believe all this [religious] stuff. But for me, it, the story at its best. is so beautiful that I don't know why everybody doesn't want to believe it, even if they can't believe it. It's this place  we embody this narrative, embody this beauty, embody this brokenness in which we try to find tangible ways to do life together.” – Lee C. Camp Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen Hatmaker on Lee Camp's No Small Endeavor podcast | Jen Hatmaker: When Everything Breaks: Grief, Growth, and Human Flourishing – https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/jen-hatmaker-when-everything-breaks-grief-growth-and-human-flourishing No Small Endeavor Podcast – https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/ Munther Isaac: Palestinian Christian Pastor on War, Hope, and Love –https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/munther-isaac-palestinian-christian-pastor-on-war-hope-and-love Munther Isaac Sermon | Christ in the Rubble – youtube.com/watch?si=zK8OKK_xGMZR64ZD&v=ZPTrmN6Dzmw&feature=youtu.be Guest's Links: Website - https://www.leeccamp.com/home Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/LeeCCamp Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/leeccamp Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2Rk2D2fHz5mzmJT8G-x9uO5kyhQiU1N2 Podcast - https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/ The Subtext Podcast – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-subtext/id1835471106 Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:As we close out the year, we wanted to do something a little different—and a little more tender. In this special end-of-year episode of For the Love, we're turning the mic over to you. Over the past months, your voicemails have poured in, telling the story of what it's been like to read Awake: the unraveling, the naming, the grief, the relief, the courage, the slow return to yourself. The messages were so honest and so resonant that we knew we needed to play some of them back—not just to honor the people who shared them, but to remind anyone listening in a similar space that they are not alone. We've woven these voices together in four acts, tracing the arc so many of us recognize. Act I — “The Moment Everything Broke” We hear from Nadine, Allison, and Sharon about the before-and-after moments: marriages ending, bodies shamed, the deep wounds of purity culture, and the rupture that comes when the life you were living can no longer hold. Act II — “Finding Language for the Ache” Paulette and Inez share what it means to finally name what couldn't be named before—untangling attachment and codependence, wrestling with faith, Jesus, and the pain of church rupture, and discovering words for a long-held ache. Act III — “Coming Back to Ourselves” With Kelly and Laura, we witness what healing can look like in motion: reclaiming agency, inhabiting our bodies again, joy returning, learning to cherish yourself, embracing life, committing to therapy, finding community, and being truly seen. Act IV — “Witnessing a Life Over Time” Tracy closes us out with the long view—what it means to trust the slow arc of a life, to be held in shared history, and to witness change unfolding over time. If something in you woke up this year—even painfully—you're not behind. You're right on time. And you are certainly not alone. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Here's to cherishing ourselves. We have so much to cherish.” – Kelly, For the Love listener “If you're willing to believe a voice from the future who has been sitting exactly where you are sitting…There is something after this story, even though you can't see that, something good is still coming for you.” – Jen Hatmaker “Everyone's experience can be a lantern to someone else.” – Amy Hardin “This is how it goes. This is how people are inspired and moved. This is how we lend courage to one another by saying our things out loud. And that is literally how my life moved. I listened to other people who were saying their thing out loud and I just was just sitting there quietly listening, going, I wonder if this is something I could consider.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/44U2DuL Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie – https://amzn.to/48UTYcn Jen Hatmaker Book Club – https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOooHcTDRzkwfxjaozkEQyYWtFpthqUtOcFwOOiSYTqO7fCTbaEsb Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices