Podcasts about Tohu

In this episode, I'm joined by Rabbi Pill for a powerful conversation as we explore how to stop fighting the tension in your life and start using it as a tool for real growth. By understanding the dynamic of Tohu and Tikkun, you'll begin to see how moments of chaos, frustration, and breakdown are not setbacks, but the very mechanism through which Hashem moves you forward. This will give you a clearer framework for personal growth, help you align your actions with what you already know to be true, and deepen your connection to both your own avodah and the collective journey of Klal Yisrael.Join the Conversation! Be part of our growing community—join the Shema Podcast for the Perplexed WhatsApp group to share feedback, discuss episodes, and suggest future topics. Click here to sign up.Get the Companion Guide: The Power of the MonthsThis free resource outlines the spiritual focus of each Hebrew month — including its mazal (zodiac sign), tribe, Hebrew letter, body part, and unique avodah. It also includes suggested actions you can take to align yourself with the energy of the time. Click here to download and keep this month-by-month guide as a tool for your own growth and reflection.  

Is this the Warriors' year? The team put on an emphatic performance, smashing the Sydney Roosters 42-18 in their NRL season opener last night. Chanel Harris-Tavita grabbed two of the Warriors seven tries, as they refused to settle on their 22-6 halftime lead. Former Captain Tohu Harris joined D'Arcy to unpack the clash. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos

Audio, bul_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, fre_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, ron_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, hun_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, bul_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, ita_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar per tutti :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, hun_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos

Video, spa_t_norav_2025-11-24_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-23_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-23_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-23_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-23_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-23_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-21_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-21_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-21_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-21_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-21_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-20_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-20_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-20_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-20_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-20_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-19_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-19_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, eng_t_norav_2025-11-19_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Video, eng_t_norav_2025-11-19_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Lessons_series. Zohar for All :: Daily_lesson 1

Audio, spa_t_norav_2025-11-19_lesson_zohar-la-am-bereshit-1-ve-haaretz-hayita-tohu-1_n1_p3. Lesson_part :: Daily_lesson 1 :: Lessons_series. Zóhar para todos

Tohu Pinot Gris 2025, Awatere Valley, Marlborough RRP from $18.99 The Awatere is located on the eastern site of Marlborough with many of the vineyards at the north-eastern reaches. On a clear day, the North Island is easy to see. This location means many of the vineyards are exposed to the easterly and southerly breezes, but there are significant sunshine hours to ripen the grapes. The wine styles are nearly always fresh and taut, often with a saline quality to the acidity. Lots of citrus and pomaceous fruit flavours are common in the wines. Founded in 1998, Tohu Wines is the world's first Māori-owned wine company. They produce excellent wines including sparkling and Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Riesling, and this Pinot Gris. This wine has some delicacy about it, it is bright, taut, fresh, salivating. The varietal flavours of green and red apple, white peach, pear and some honeysuckle deliver the core mid-palate flavours and weight. Salivating and just dry on the palate with textures from lees and acidity creating a vibrant mouthfeel. Well-made, balanced and ready to drink from late 2025 through 2028. The season: rather excellent Warm spring. Near-perfect flowering. Above-average yields. The diurnal shift from warm days to cool night ensured both flavour development and acidity were preserved. Food match: New season sweet corn with lots of butter and sea-salt with this wine is a near perfect match. You can also dip the corn cob into a sour-cream sprinkled with nutmeg for some extra matching. Alternatively, a sweetcorn fritter topped with sour-cream and a slice of smoke salmon works just as well with the Tohu Pinot Gris. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

274. Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg   Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, so will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit from your most recent research for your latest book, entitled The God You Need to Know? If someone listening has trouble identifying the Spirit's role and God's direction or Jesus' voice in their life, how would you encourage them to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading? Do you have any stories to give as illustrations for the Spirit still mightily being at work in the world and in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg, one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.   Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen Fruitful with Laura Dugger   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Do you love to travel?   If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, DreamCellar Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Today we get to learn from one of the most joyful human beings I've ever encountered.   My guest for today is Margaret Feinberg, and she's an author and researcher and podcaster and speaker. Most recently, her research project turned into a book where she was researching all about the Holy Spirit and His work in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and still His work that's present and active in our lives and around our world today. So, her stories of His specific presence at work in our lives are so moving, and she also pairs that with practical ways that we can more clearly hear from the Holy Spirit and identify His voice in our lives.   We also chat about the true definition of the word weird, which I actually want to elaborate on now because in the moment I couldn't find the definition that was so powerful. So, weird is defined as unearthly or uncanny, extraordinary, involving or suggesting the supernatural, and completely fantastic. Sometimes we think the Holy Spirit may be inviting us into something that seems weird, but He's redefined weird for us, and I just pray that all of us after this conversation will accept the invitation with gladness from Holy Spirit in our lives to join in whatever adventure He has planned for each one of us today.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Margaret.   Margaret Feinberg: (2:18 - 2:24) What a delight to be with you today. It's absolute joy, and you look fantastic, by the way.   Laura Dugger: (2:24 - 2:45) You're so kind. I can tell that joy is one of your markers already, and that makes me think you just have such a rich spiritual heritage in general. So, we don't typically start here, but can you go back and share your parents' story of coming to faith in Jesus Christ?   Margaret Feinberg: (2:46 - 5:22) Absolutely. I share this in the book, The God You Need to Know, in Bible study, but it's pretty beautiful. They actually came to know Jesus back in the 1970s during the Jesus movement, and my father was raised Jewish, and my mom was not really raised much in the church, and so, they got married, and separately on the same weekend, they came to know Christ. My father, back in the 1960s, he was actually a surfboard manufacturer.   He helped build longboards the very first time that longboards were cool, and these customers kept coming into his little store and telling him about Jesus, and eventually he grew so frustrated that one weekend he went out turkey hunting, and he was sitting in turkey blind, had tons of time around him, and decided to sit down and read the entire New Testament over the course of that weekend, and he read it, and he thought, “Wow, Jesus came to earth.”   He lived, he died, and he was resurrected that we can have eternal life for free, and he thought, in his Jewish brain, that is a good deal, and so, he just believed in Christ, and meanwhile, my mom is at home and has her own encounter. She's finishing reading a book by the name of The Great Late Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which was actually the best-selling book of the decade back in the 1970s, and at the end of that book, it had an invitation to come to know Christ, and so, both of them come to know Christ separately on the same weekend. They come home on that Sunday, and they're a little awkward about it because it sounds weird. They don't really want to tell each other, and then finally start to spell out, and there's such joy that they both came to know Christ because the Holy Spirit was at work in their lives. What's amazing is that they had been trying to have kids for the first eight years of their marriage and hadn't been able to conceive, and within a month of them coming to know Jesus, I was conceived. So, you just see the work of the Holy Spirit all over that, and that He is leading people to Christ. He is on the move, and sometimes it doesn't involve any of us doing anything, and that's a freedom marker for us. It's not our job to run around and try to save everybody. Holy Spirit is already at work, and when we have the opportunities to be part of that, it is a privilege and a joy. Trust in a God who is so good and so loving and so kind that He will find people through reading books and hiding out in a turkey blind hunting turkeys all weekend.   Laura Dugger: (5:23 - 5:45) That gives me goosebumps even to hear the timing of that and you being conceived. Then you also had a unique childhood. At that time, not as many people were homeschooled, and your story was fascinating. So, what was homeschooling and spiritual discipleship like for you in the growing up years?   Margaret Feinberg: (5:46 - 8:18) Yeah, so, in those early years, my mom and dad had that mom-and-pop kind of surf shop down in Cocoa Beach, Florida. For all you surfing nerds, Ron Jon loaned my dad the money to marry my mom. I mean, so, we're talking deep surfing roots, still friends to this day, and so, they would work, and a lot of you are entrepreneurs and are listening, and you get this, but they would often work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, just trying to keep this little store open with their employee. It just was. It's just a rough business, retail, and so, the only way that they could get away was they would leave the store in the hands of a manager. They decided to buy a really small, inexpensive boat, and we would go sail from the coast of Florida into the Caribbean. So, as we did that, what do we do for school. I remember for third grade, we actually went for an entire year, and so, it was homeschooling. Now, this is like early 80s, and you have to think like it's not exactly fact-checked, reputable, like you send your work in like once or twice a year. So, I'm living on this boat, super remote, not even around a ton of kids, pretty isolated, and I figured out that if I did all my schoolwork in one day that I could play the other six, and so, that was my year of third grade. Fortunately, things turned out okay, but I learned so much more just meeting people from all over the world, surfing or swimming.   I learned how to, at eight years old, shoot my first lobster because we had to survive off the ocean. So, it was an incredible experience. Then after that, ended up going into public school in the later years once we got to like probably fifth, sixth, a lot more steady than those early years. But you know, the thing that I always saw in my mom was I would wake up, and she would usually be on the couch or on the deck of the boat, and she would be reading her Bible, and there was something about that. It wasn't spoken.   It wasn't like you must do this, but I watched it, and I saw it, and now all these years later, that's what I do. So, for all those mamas and papas who are listening and watching, I just want to encourage you - like how you live, those little things, the kids and the grandkids and the great-grandkids, they watch, they see, and it matters, and so, thank you. Those of you who are engaging in those things. It pays dividends for decades and generations to come.   Laura Dugger: (8:20 - 8:28) That's incredible, and then can you share about your own faith journey? You saw that modeled. When did it become personal to you?   Margaret Feinberg: (8:29 - 11:44) Yeah, you know, even as a young kid, I was aware of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, and just the Lord was very tender to make Himself real to me when I was young. When I went away to college, and this is just normal behavior, you know, there is that kind of making faith your own, figuring it out, and so, my freshman year of college, I partied like a rock star. I got the bees, the beer, the boys, and the Ben and Jerry, like I, you know, I just all the things, and I remember at the end of that year, I had this sense that God was saying to me like, you are my child. I have called you by name.   You are mine. Come back to me, and I read about this in The God You Need to Know, but one of those was a turning point I went to. It was actually a Methodist conference on Holy Spirit, and while I was there, I had an unusual experience, but in it, you know, I'm watching, I'm listening to all these lectures.   I'm in the conference. I'm attending all these things, and at one point, I had a thought pop into my mind that was not my own, and the thought was go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. I was like, okay, that's weird, but it was like go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. So, I'm like, you know what? At the end of the day, like what do I have to lose?   I mean the worst thing that happens is I wander into our prayer room. Okay, we'll take the risk, and I remember going in there, and I'm kind of like there's some people praying (a couple). I'm trying to like I don't want to be weird like I know it's a conference on the Holy Spirit, but still I'm like I am not going to be weird about it. So, I'm like trying to peek underneath a tablecloth, and there's nothing there, and there's all these tables around the room. So, I'm kind of like making my way across, and I'm seeing like one lady like eyeing me like what is happening. So, I peek under another one. Anyway, I go table after table, nothing after nothing until I reach the very last table. I pick up the tablecloth, and there is a Bible, and I look, and it's full of like notes and photographs. So, I pull it out, and there's a name on the front, and so, I just kind of said, “You know, excuse me in the prayer room like does anybody know this person, and most people were like no, and one lady says you know what I do know her, and she had to leave the conference early, and I actually have her phone number.” So, all of a sudden I'm on the phone calling this lady and saying “Hey, I just found your Bible on the phone.”    She says, “You have no idea. That Bible is full of decades of prayers and notes and photos that can't be replaced. I have been sitting here praying that someone would find my Bible.” So, I'm just in awe like Holy Spirit, I didn't even know - like wow like this is not just a mental learning.   This is a real experience, and so, I told a couple people at the conference about it. One said' “You know what, actually, if you're driving up that direction, I've been praying to get a ride up that direction.” So, I was able to drop off this ministry worker, return this Bible to this precious woman, and that really became one of the markers in my life. Oh my goodness Holy Spirit is real. He is on the move. He is leading and guiding us, and this is such an exciting thrilling adventure to be on.   Laura Dugger: (11:45 - 12:12) Wow, and it absolutely is. You are an incredible storyteller. It's so powerful the way that you wrote some stories in your books, the way that you're sharing it now. God has really gifted you with that, and that's part of your purpose in life being that storyteller. So, how did you begin to uncover the purpose that God had for you in life?   Margaret Feinberg: (12:12 - 15:09) That's such a great question, so, I'm going to answer that a couple different folds. Can I do that? So, the first answer is all of our purpose is the same. It is to love God, love others, and delight in Him forever.   That is the purpose of all of our lives, and so, that is the answer. At the same time, a lot of what I think you're saying is purpose is a little bit about vocation. Is that right?   And so, we need to recognize that as believers that this idea that somehow our vocation or what we do is our purpose and is supposed to give us meaning and value to God has really only been around for the last 50 to 75 years and largely established in the American culture. But for thousands of years, that has never been the case. And so, what that does is that for a lot of us, when we don't kind of understand that it puts a heavier weight on the job. The vocation that we do to carry all of this burden of purpose, fulfillment, meaning, ordained by God.   I mean, that becomes like a heavy burden for a single job or vocation to carry that it was never meant to. Right? And so, again, back to what is our purpose? It is loving God, loving others, and delighting. And that never changes no matter whether you are raising littles, whether you are whatever the title on your business card, if you still have those, or identification on social, whatever it is. But that never changes.   And so, I think that we have to step back and recognize that. Now, I do understand that I am in a role in which my job provides spiritual meaning. And that is delightful.   And I am super grateful for that. But in that, my spiritual meaning is still not about what books I write or podcasts or any of that nonsense. It's all about how I'm living in my community and real one-to-one relationships that are done privately and never published on social media.   That is the real life. And so, I just want to encourage everyone out there to think that that job is the thing. The job is never the thing.   Now, don't let that distract you because what do you do when you're retired? What do you do if you can't do that job? But if you are in a vocation, if you are in a role, that to understand, yes, God can use that, and to invite Holy Spirit into that space, but to make sure that we don't find our identity in that.   Because that's a short runway. That's going to end at one point. And to really ground ourselves into the eternal and what does not have an end and what will sustain us from our first breath until our last.   Laura Dugger: (15:10 - 16:38) Wow, I love how you put all of that. And so, I'm going to share a story, so, bear with me because you may not be aware, but back in 2013, our lives first crossed paths. So, back then, we were pregnant with our first child.   And my husband, Mark, and I went with my parents to the American Association of Christian Counselors conference in Nashville. And you were one of those keynote speakers at the Opera Land Hotel. And I was just mesmerized by every word you shared.   And so, I see why people write about you, and they say you're one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, because you were so endearing from the first word spoken. But at the time, you were battling cancer. And yet you were still willing to generously and joyfully share about the goodness of the Lord and the ways that we encounter Him in nature through olives and bees and so on.   But the one other thing that has stuck with me for over a decade is when you encourage the audience of probably thousands of people in attendance, that if we don't know what to be thankful for today, be thankful for nose hairs. So, do you remember that?   Margaret Feinberg: (16:39 - 19:24) I do. Yeah, that defined gratitude in the little things and in the heart. I do.   And the reason I said that, because without context, that sounds really, really strange. But whenever anybody who's out there and is walking through any medical, whether that's mental health or physical challenges, one of the difficulties is in the medical world, they don't tell you everything that's coming. And so, there are all these hidden surprises, and you can read about it, and you can WebMD it, and you can read online, and all of them are just going to say you're going to die tomorrow.   We already know that. We know we shouldn't Google these things, right? But no matter what you're walking through, there are things that people just don't tell you.   And so, I knew that going through chemotherapy, I would lose my hair. And sure enough, in 10 days, it was all falling out. Nobody told me that that included all my hair, including my nose hairs.   And so, what I had to learn the hard way is when you don't have nose hairs, like kind of what holds anything that's liquid in your nose, it just falls out. And so, my encouragement was to everybody, you don't have anything to give thanks to God for today. Give thanks for your nose hairs.   And just a light way of saying, you know, even when you're walking through the darkness, and I know some of your listeners and your viewers are, you are in dark seasons. And if that is you, I just want to say, I get you. I get it.   I have battled cancer. I have battled autoimmune. I have battled being sick for years.   I have battled being embezzled. I have battled surviving a destructive pastor. I know suffering and pain.   But even when we're in the darkness, we are a people who poke holes in the darkness until it bleeds light. And that's who we are. And gratitude is just one of those tools that helps us do that.   So, I just want to encourage you today, like whatever it takes for you. And there is something in this concept of joy. And I don't quite understand.   I can't quite wrap my head around it. But joy is something that you can give away even when you don't have it. And in the process of giving away joy when you don't have it, somehow our capacity for joy expands.   It's a strange equation in God's economy. It does not add up. It does not make sense.   But whether it's, you know, climbing in an MRI machine and saying, man, has anybody praised God from this square inch today? Whether it's showing up and giving just a simple gift to someone else, whether it's writing the note, whether it's encouraging someone else, even in our own pain. When we do that, our capacity for joy just grows bigger and bigger.   Laura Dugger: (19:25 - 21:58) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?   If so, you need to call DreamCellar Travel. DreamCellar Travel is located in central Illinois, but works with clients all across the USA. Whether you're wanting to plan a large family get together someplace tropical or take a cruise with your family, or maybe you want to explore the history and culture of a European town.   Regardless of the trip, DreamCellar Travel is there to assist you with your planning needs. From the customized trip design and the ideas through the small details and the preparations before the trip, and even while traveling. DreamCellar Travel is there with you every step along the way, making it seamless and stress free.   DreamCellar Travel can work with your travel plans as you have laid them out, or they will customize a trip for your request. In most cases, there's absolutely no service fee for this work. That's worth saying again, in most cases, there is absolutely no service fee for this work.   Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip. DreamCellar Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more.   Where do you dream of going? You can reach out to the DreamCellar Travel at 309-696-5890 or check them out online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   You just lived this so well, and I know joy is a fruit of the spirit. Will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit, especially from all your research from your latest book? As you mentioned, it's entitled The God You Need to Know.   Margaret Feinberg: (21:59 - 25:44) Yeah, I'm super excited about this book and Bible study. I've had a lot of questions about the Holy Spirit since I was a little girl. I remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, He's so real.   He's so human. That I can recognize, and I get the picture of God on the throne, all powerful and sovereign. But when I think about the Holy Spirit, I'd be like, I'm struggling here a little bit.   And growing up in Southern Baptist and Methodist and Episcopal and non-denominational and charismatic, I got little pieces of Holy Spirit, but I just kind of struggled. And I think one of the reasons I struggled is that often, maybe like you, when I ask questions about Holy Spirit, I was like, “Well, you need to go read the book of Acts and read Acts 2.” And that's that beautiful moment of Pentecost where the spirit comes in and it's like a violent wind and tongues of fire.   They descend and people start speaking in other languages and other people hear they're declaring the glories of God. And then all of a sudden 3,000 people get saved. I think that is awesome.   But that doesn't look like my every day. So, I'm not quite sure. And so, for the last few years, I've been struggling to write this book.   And when I really came alive was with a scholar by the name of Jack Levison, and he focused in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And all of a sudden that changed everything for me. Because what happens is if we jump to Acts, and particularly Acts 2 to understand Holy Spirit, it would be like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is who you're marrying.   And you're like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know this person. Like we haven't courted. We haven't dated.”   I don't, what, what, what? And yet that's often what we do as believers when we're directing people. And so, I took a deep dive into Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament, looking at Genesis where Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, the chaos, the darkness, looking at how Holy Spirit hovers over our lives and how that's consistent with God, as in the book of Deuteronomy, as well as Jesus in the New Testament, that hovering like a, like a hen, I wanted to gather the children.   And you start to see this through it. You start to look in the lives of Bezalel, who was the first person who was filled with Holy Spirit, to do what to make and to make those, you know, the tabernacle and to lead an entire guild of artisans. We see the life of the Spirit in Daniel, where all of a sudden Nebuchadnezzar on multiple occasions is saying the Spirit of God is in him.   We have somebody who is literally running around like a wild animal at certain points in his life, who is still recognizing the power of Holy Spirit. I think it's the word in Hebrew is Ketria. We start seeing it in the life of Ezekiel, where the Holy Spirit is lifting him up, giving him new perspectives.   And what's cool is that once you start to recognize the rule of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you arrive at Acts 2 and you go, of course, it would happen this way. And suddenly for those of us who for maybe we've been hesitant about Holy Spirit, or maybe we've had maybe a lack of teaching or maybe some teaching that was a little bit abusive and was used to manipulate. Like all of a sudden we can back up from that and be like, oh, Holy Spirit, this is you from the beginning of time.   This is so normal. This isn't weird. This is just part of just being a follower of Jesus.   And so, one of the things that I love about this book is it takes the weird out, takes the scary out. It's so just biblically based, especially in the Old Testament. And I think some of your listeners and viewers will be surprised like, whoa, I didn't know that was, what?   That's where? And that's really fun and exciting.   Laura Dugger: (25:45 - 26:14) Absolutely. I think it did bring to light so many things from the Old Testament, like I said, especially. And I think you were even able to share some of your own stories, and that's why we're so often called to remember.   I think when we preserve and document those and share those stories, we can reflect back and remember God nudging us like he did with you, putting a thought in your mind that was not your own. That increases our faith in others, I think, as well.   Margaret Feinberg: (26:14 - 28:25) I think it really, really does. I think that one of the things we have to remember when Holy Spirit, so, in Psalm 139, we know that God knows he made us in the womb. And so, to recognize that all of us are made differently, and my hunches are some listeners right now who are thinking, man, yeah, I know people who talk a lot about Holy Spirit, but that's just not me.   I don't really see or enact or feel Holy Spirit. And so, first of all to you, I want to say I don't feel Holy Spirit either. I've been to a ton of churches and conferences, and the person on the stage will say, man, do you feel the Holy Spirit here?   And I'll be like, nope, nope, not at all. So, I'm not a feeler. But what I can do in those moments is I can acknowledge with my head, Holy Spirit is here, because we know that as part of the Trinity, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Spirit is here.   And then secondly, to recognize that like Psalm, you know, that describes that He knew us in the womb, that we are all different. We know today that there's a neurodiversity, right? So, some people learn audio, some people visual, some people like myself, ADD, ADHD.   And God knows that, like the Creator did not make a mistake. And so, wouldn't it make sense that the Holy Spirit, who knows us as the spirit of a living God, would interact with us in different ways? I have an e-newsletter, and I've surveyed, you know, thousands of people, how they recognize the spirit, and it's just so diverse.   Some are like me, a thought pops back in my head that is not my own, that causes me to love God, love others, serve others, take risks in godly good ways. For other people, they do feel it. Some people have like a warmth in their body.   Some people kind of just feel like this, this just comfort or peace, like liquid love that envelops them. Some people recognize God and the Holy Spirit through nature. And so, I listen to this, and I think, doesn't that make sense that God and Holy Spirit would know us so well that He would know how to communicate with us?   And so, that when we start gathering with other believers and say, “Hey, how is Holy Spirit working in your life?” It starts to get this excitement of recognizing it and celebrating it and making it normal and not weird.   Laura Dugger: (28:28 - 28:48) And I think let's even take that one step further. So, if somebody is listening and they currently have trouble identifying the spirit's role or God's direction or Jesus's voice in their life, how would you encourage them with even first steps to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?   Margaret Feinberg: (28:49 - 34:09) Goodness, that's such a great question. Something that's really changed my life in the last few months is my friend, Drake. He's a Young Life leader here.   And he said, Margaret, when I'm training people how to recognize Holy Spirit, he says, “I and the kids get a journal and write one question down for Holy Spirit each day. The question could be about purpose, identity, Holy Spirit, what's on your heart, Holy Spirit, who do I serve today? And write that one question down.”   That's it. That's all we're doing. And then throughout the day, return to that one question in prayer again and again.   And then pay attention to conversations that suddenly you have, Bible passages that flutter through your mind, the sermon that's given, conversations with other believers. Like just pay attention. And it's amazing.   And then the next day or that night, jot down whatever happens. The next day, change the question or keep the same question. And just start changing the posture of your life to pay attention to that one question.   And I think you're going to start to see and encounter some things. It may not happen quickly. It may take a few weeks or even months, but it will happen.   I think I was thinking about this just this morning. I haven't shared this with anybody. But in some ways, like people are like, I don't recognize Holy Spirit.   It's kind of like my friends who are birders. Okay. Some people super into birding.   And I know there are birds. I mean, occasionally I'll see a bird out the window, but birders have a whole different mentality. They slow down.   They pay attention. And they have some tools like binoculars to be able to look and to see. And it's the same thing about paying attention to Holy Spirit.   We've got to slow down, pay attention. And maybe the tool is just asking Holy Spirit one question a day. But suddenly you'll start to see and recognize.   Can I give you a fun story? Please. Okay.   So, just at Easter came around and I was probably a couple weeks before and they're having this crazy good sale at Target on some new releases. So, I'm at the Target website early in the morning before they sell out. And I saw a purse and I bought myself a few things.   But I saw a purse and I immediately thought of my friend Janella. And so, I was just like, I'm just going to buy this for her. Now, let me be clear.   I've never bought a purse for her before. I don't really carry around a ton of purses. I'm a Apple pay, like keep it light.   Like it's just not my thing. But put it in the cart, send it to her. So, I get a text from her about a week or two later.   And she goes, how did you know? Did I tell you about my Easter meltdown? And I said, no, I didn't know.   And she tells me, and I had known this, that her mother had passed away last year. What I didn't know is every single year, since she was a little girl for Easter, her mom would buy her a dress and a purse. And this was the first Easter without her mom.   And she could justify financially buying the dress, but not the purse. And all of a sudden this purse, which wasn't a normal purse. She's like, this is an Easter purse.   I was like, I don't know that, but okay. Arrived. And she said, I just, I just cried because I knew that the Lord saw me.   He heard me. You know, he was with me, part of his kingdom. And so, she says, but here's the thing.   The purse matched my dress perfectly. And you start to see that happen. And I didn't hear a voice from God say, go buy your friend a purse.   I was just like, “Hey, I've been praying every day, a single thing from Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, will you order my steps?” And then you see something that you couldn't orchestrate on your own in 500 years happen.   And you go, that is the work of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it's parakletos. It means advocate.   It can be translated comforter, advisor, barrister. For those of you watch too many British shows like I do, you know, the legal counsel. But if I were to kind of break that down from just biblical words, here's how we know it's the Holy Spirit.   Number one, Holy Spirit will remind you: God loves you. God sees you. God hears you.   And you're part of His kingdom. And what happened in that story was both of us experienced that. God loves, He sees, He hears, and we're part of His kingdom.   And so, that is the thrilling part about life in the Spirit. It's not so I feel good or I have little things that happen. It's about being part of God's kingdom on this earth, living out the life that Christ describes and designed for us.   And so, we cannot do that apart from Holy Spirit. And also, you may notice I haven't been using the term the Holy Spirit because we wouldn't say I talked to the God today. I talked to Jesus.   And Holy Spirit is a person; a person you can have a relationship with. And just as you can have a relationship with Christ and talk to Christ, you can do the same with Holy Spirit who is, again, paracletes, your advisor, your comforter, your helper. Why would you not tap into that?   Why would you want to spend a life missing out on the fullness of that?   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 36:48) Oh, that's good, and I'll have to try and apply that and refer to Holy Spirit rather than I even did it there, the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking in the book of John, I love the amplified version where it says, “one of the things to describe Holy Spirit is standby.” And I've thought of that so many times because I love looking up definitions and seeing exactly what that means.   And it's just the immediacy of the help available. And that's been a way that I've experienced Him in my life especially the short prayers of help, please help now. Or if I need direction, a lot of times it comes in parenting for me, like, I'm not sure which way to go.   Can you give me discernment right now? And He's immediately available. So, I would say my own personal experience, it's a lot of what you've mentioned, definitely through reading the Bible that I feel like He speaks so much.   You're like, well, bring the words off the page. Journaling is such a practical way. And I'll link to our friend Chris Allen's episode just about hearing from God and training our kids on how they can do the same.   Just those thoughts that they're not always from us, but we're processing thoughts that are given to us. But one other thing, so, this is inspired from your book. You mentioned about dreams and just asking Holy Spirit to speak to you through dreams.   So, in our life currently, one of our daughters is going through some health issues and we were launched into having to do this FODMAP diet. And it's not that big of a deal, but I had never heard of it before. And it limits and restricts quite a few things.   So, the immediate need of that seemed a little bit overwhelming. We're kind of in a busy season and completely revamping everything our family eats all day. I've been preoccupied and kind of consumed with that.   So, twice this week, because in my quiet time I felt like God just kept saying, bring it to me, come to me with this, ask me the questions. And so, I've been journaling and I feel like He's been responding with Scripture. But the last two nights in a row, I've woken up with a recipe in mind for our family.   And that has never happened before. But you are the one who challenged us just to say, just ask. And that was probably, probably started asking over a month ago.   So, thank you.   Margaret Feinberg: (36:49 - 40:32) Wow. I love it. And you know what?   That makes me want to ask. Does that make sense? Like there's this excitement and there's this joy.   When you share about how Holy Spirit is working in your life, I'm like, I want that too. And that's just, yeah, I think that so often we forget who is with us.   The person, the person of Holy Spirit is with us. We don't have to keep all this striving and straining. And man, I got a life hack this on my own.   You know, there is this availability of the power and the presence of the person of Holy Spirit, the spirit of the living God. One thing I want to note on the Trinity, just so that I don't, I don't want anybody to think, oh, she's just cutting out one part of the Trinity. No.   Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A couple of things on that. Number one, often, and part of the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, a little bit more in looking at this in the Old Testament, is when we see things in groupings of three, we tend to think that the third one listed tends to be lesser than or third place.   Right. And yet Father, Son and Spirit are equal. And what we see throughout the Bible is we have to remember that where there is one, all are present.   And so, like in creation, we see God take the lead. But, you know, Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1 to Jesus using the reference of we is there. And so, we start to see that the word, I think it's the word perichoresis is this term that describes the Trinity in a dance.   And so, at different parts of Scripture, we'll see one member of the Trinity take the lead, but the others are always present, whether it's, you know, Jesus taking the lead in the Gospels. But we see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. We see God saying, this is my son and whom I am pleased.   Well, please listen to Him. And so, to recognize that, but also to recognize, again, like this, this reality that Holy Spirit is in us and with us. Like, wow, that starts to change everything.   So, all of a sudden, and you say, “It's no big deal changing the way your family eats. Can I just say that is an enormous deal. The time that it takes to prepare the food, the thinking, the thought space, the bad recipes, it is so big.”   So, you can try to minimize that. But I'm just going to say, “First of all, I'm glad there's a way forward, but I'm sorry, because that is massive. And it's a lot.”   And Holy Spirit wants to meet us there. Remember Genesis 1:2, “In the beginning, God created the heavenly earth and the earth was formless and void.” Tohu wavohu in the Hebrew.   “And the spirit was hovering over.” That word is merechefet. And it means to hover, to brood like a mama eagle.   One rabbi translated it as to flutter. And what is the spirit fluttering? Remember in the Bible, sorry to go to teaching mode, but whenever someone is introduced in scripture, the introduction is the most important.   We see that in the life of Saul. He literally is hiding in baggage and can't find his own donkeys. And it plays out that way, right?   So, how is Holy Spirit introduced? Could have entered any place and comes on the scene hovering over the chaos, the uncertainty, and the unknown. And so, here you are in that place of uncertainty and unknown, a little chaotic.   And what is Holy Spirit? Here's a recipe.    Doing what? Reminding you, you are loved by God. You are seen by God.   You are heard by God. And you are part of this kingdom. Man, when we start to share these stories, it just, oh, it creates this hunger to experience and know the spirit more.   Laura Dugger: (40:32 - 42:02) It does, and it's so humbling, just his loving kindness.    I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website.   You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities.   And we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.    Are there any other stories that come to mind to think of Holy Spirit being alive and moving and working in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg: (42:03 - 46:15) Oh, I'll give you one that I just found. You know what's so funny? Again, when you start to use the prayer prompts, when you start to do these just like a burger, all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't know how many birds there were.   So, went over to our friend's house. It was somebody at church. We actually, they weren't our friends at that point.   We noticed that when they came to our church, the son is on the spectrum. And so, in Sunday school class would often just stare at the wall in the corner by himself, not interact a whole lot, and their daughter. And so, my husband said, hey, let's bring a meal over to them.   And they invited us to stay for dinner. And so, the son comes in and he's probably maybe nine years old, wrapped up in a blanket, like a little burrito. And he won't make any eye contact with us.   You know, the mom's like, say, “Hello to Margaret.” Won't interact. Kind of woombas around, disappears, comes through a few times.   Finish eating. We go out in the living room. And the mom starts telling the story that she was exhausted as a mom.   She was completely burnt out. And she just said, “You know what? I'm going to the reservoir and I'm going to go paddle boarding.”   Just take a few minutes for myself. So, she goes out. She's paddle boarding.   All of a sudden she sees like a piece of paper on the surface of the water. She looks down and she goes, what is that? So, she picks it up.   Turns out to be a QR code to the zoo. Now, she doesn't know if it's used trash or what, but she's like, I'm going to keep this. She paddles some more, sees another piece of paper.   It's another QR code to the zoo. She's like, maybe they blew away from the, I don't, so, she grabs it. And she prays and she says, Lord, now you know that we're a family of four.   So, if we're really supposed to go to the zoo, we need four of these. Keeps paddle boarding. Finds two more.   And so, she comes home and says, “Guys, we're going to try to go to the zoo. I don't even know if these work.” But next day goes to the zoo, scans them.   Boop, boop, boop, boop. They all work. So, they go to the zoo.   So, they're walking through. And all of a sudden, the son comes upon a display of red pandas. And he just stops in his tracks.   And he stares and he watches. And the rest of the family, you know, the sister and the dad want to go on and they do. But he just says, “Mom, can we stay here?”   And so, he stays there for several hours just staring in this strange connection. He's never had, Mom had never seen anything like this with the red pandas. And so, she's telling me this story.   And suddenly I look around their living room and I realize there is panda paraphernalia everywhere. She looks at her son and says, “Honey, why don't you go put on your panda outfit?” Disappears, comes back in the panda outfit.   And all of a sudden, he's looking at us. He's talking to us. He's engaging us.   He goes over to his parents and paws them like a panda. And all of a sudden is snuggling with them. And she says that one encounter at the zoo changed their relationship with their son.   She says there are days that my son will get completely overwhelmed and start having a meltdown. And she'll use panda language and go up to him and say, “Well, you know that pandas eat 13 hours a day. Maybe you need a snack.”   And it is provided this connection and this new language for them as a family that they never had before. All because she went paddle boarding at the reservoir and pieces of paper started floating on the surface of the water. Friends, this is the work and power and presence of Holy Spirit.   Reminding us we are loved by God. We are seen by God. We are heard by God.   And we are part of this kingdom. And for your listeners, that may be strange stories of paper. And that may seem really odd.   But, man, I read a book that talks about Jesus saying, “Hey, go check out the fish.” And all of a sudden a coin to pay taxes comes out of his mouth. I read a book that declares that, you know, he is the alpha and the omega.   He is the beginning and the end. He knows where we are. He knows what we need.   And He wants to intercept. And sometimes that shows up like recipes in your brain in the morning.   Laura Dugger: (46:16 - 47:27) Amen, sister. And you can keep sharing as many stories as you want. But one more.   As I was reading your book, it was actually over Easter weekend. And at that time we had some tornadoes that were passing through the Midwest where we live. And in the middle of the night, we're all up.   We're in the basement. And once the sirens ceased, we got our girls back to bed. And we came and I just wondered, we came back to bed and I thought, is this just going to be for a few moments?   Is it going to happen again? Are we going to be up all night and need to take cover? So, with those concerns on my mind, I crawled back into bed.   And, you know, cortisol is kind of rushing through. So, I picked up your book to read. And my eyes fell to the words you quoted from part of Isaiah 31:5.   So, I specifically fell to this where it says, “He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and will rescue it.” And I fell asleep well knowing that I could receive comfort from Holy Spirit, that the storm had passed for the night and God was shielding our family from it.   And indeed He did. They ceased.   Margaret Feinberg: (47:28 - 47:42) Isn't that incredible? I mean, we talk about I mean, just that's the word of God and the power of Holy Spirit, like speaking right in that moment in that exact situation. That is awesome.   Absolutely awesome. I love it.   Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 48:17) So, I love just Holy Spirit is even working through the words on your pages. I want you to be encouraged. I know you've prayed over this resource, but it's so incredible.   Somebody once said that books are little missionaries. And it's so true throughout the world. You have no idea who's cuddled up in bed reading these words and getting to encounter him.   So, thank you for all of your work for this. But Margaret, do you have any other practical tips that you want to impart to us so that each of us can cultivate the fruit of spirit in our lives?   Margaret Feinberg: (48:18 - 50:39) Yeah, I would say, you know, if you're if you're new to this and this idea, you know, pick up a copy of The Gods You Need to Know. There's also a Bible study. I am passionate about doing this in community.   The Holy Spirit, we often in the Americana church, think of our little personal private relationship with Jesus. And that's not church history. That's not the work of God.   Since the beginning of time, it has always been through relationships and community and recognizing that each of us has something to bring to the table in relationship with God and each other and gifts and talents and insights. I am in my questions. I think I referred to this later or earlier about, you know, I surveyed a bunch of people in my newsletter just about, hey, so, how do you recognize Holy Spirit?   One lady responded and she said, “Well, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit for directions, and I just know where to go.” And she goes and it happens over and over in, you know, neighborhoods when I'm driving, when I'm going places. And I thought, okay, so, first I'll just be honest. My first thought was that's weird. I haven't heard that before.   And we assign anything weird that we aren't familiar with. And then I thought a little longer. I thought, man, I want her on my team.   I want her on my team because I get lost all the time. And I think that at times, sometimes we encounter people who encounter the Spirit differently than us. Remember that neurodiversity, but to recognize living in relationship, hearing how Holy Spirit works in different, sharing those stories.   There's something contagious and powerful in it. So, I would say definitely pursue Holy Spirit in relationship with others. Get together with others.   Start talking about this. Start praying together. Holy Spirit, we want to know you.   You know, it's okay to say, Holy Spirit, in the past, I've seen really unhealthy things. Or nobody's really taught me about you. But I trust that as the Spirit of the living God that you want to reveal yourself.   Just start praying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you. See what happens over the course of a week or two of praying that.   And what you become aware of. What Bible passages flutter through your mind. What conversations you suddenly stumble upon.   What answers to things you've been plagued with suddenly come. I trust God that if you ask and you honestly pursue, God will show up and show off.   Laura Dugger: (50:41 - 51:45) I completely agree. And now I'm curious to look up. I feel like the Lord has kind of put on my mind the word weird this year a few times.   Because truly, when you think of what he did, even in the Old Testament, think of Noah, just like, okay, I'm obeying. I'm putting nails in this wood for never seeing rain. It's weird what we're called to sometimes.   And I think that's what can make me hesitate for obedience sometimes. Like, that feels weird. Or I don't want people to think I'm weird.   So, I'm going to look up the definition of weird. I'd love to read it to you. Okay, so, I just looked up the definition of weird.   And it says, suggesting something supernatural or uncanny. And I think we should reframe the word weird. And when we're invited into something weird by supernatural God of the universe, that's an incredible invitation, like you say, to adventure.   So, I hope we can embrace the weird.   Margaret Feinberg: (51:47 - 54:41) And to recognize that feeling of, I don't want to do this. This feels strange. That is universal.   That is not you. That is not unique. And for all of our listeners and viewers, I have it.   Everybody has it. When we're trying to discern, you know, if something is prompted by the Holy Spirit, number one, is this, does this align with scripture? And does it align with the character of God?   Does it increase my dependence on God? Which means it's probably going to go against my natural instinct, which unfortunately is pretty self-word rather than outward. Does it cause me to love God and love others more?   And so, of course, Holy Spirit is going to be working in this expansive ground to pull us away from our self-word direction outward. And that is always going to be stretching and feel strange. And sometimes we're not going to see the outcome.   And we've got to become comfortable with that. We are not responsible for the outcome. We are responsible for obedience.   Some time ago, I swim a lot. And I just felt just in my gut, like, talk to the person in the lane next to you. And so, I go out swimming, and he's next to me, and I'm like, okay.   And so, I started this conversation with this elderly gentleman. And I'll just be honest. It was more like a non-versation.   I mean, we talked about sports ball teams and the weather and nothing. I really cared. Nothing deep.   Nothing meaningful. And on one hand, maybe I misheard. Okay.   But no harm, no foul. I mean, I showed kindness to a stranger. Loved others.   Like, there's no, like, okay. You know, on the other hand, I will never know what might have happened. Maybe he felt left alone.   Maybe he felt seen. But the outcome doesn't matter. And so, there are going to be times that we step out, and we see it, and we encounter it, and it's so exciting.   And there's going to be other times that we go to that thing, and we go, Lord, I didn't even know what that was. But maybe that was about quick obedience. You know, almost like building a muscle, getting stronger to say, you did it then.   I'm going to keep challenging. I'm going to give you opportunities to do this again and again. Because I want you on the front lines of, you know, eyes are searching to and fro for people who are, you know, obedient, quick to respond, that Holy Spirit wants to use.   And so, know that not seeing a result, totally normal. Keep going. Keep going.   Because you will see responses sometimes. And it is awesome. And in part of that, it's almost like building a muscle that I think God is so gracious and so loving kind that he will show you, like, quick outcomes sometimes when you respond to that little impulse to keep you going.   But there are going to be times you're not going to see them, but he's still at work. Because, again, you may be one of 17 people in a long chain where the fruit or the outcome as part of God's kingdom is still coming. And after a while, it's fine to be number 4, 7, 9.   You don't always have to be number 17.   Laura Dugger: (54:42 - 55:06) That's so good. That is such the biblical principle of being faithful with little. And then sometimes He allows us to be faithful with much.   And, Margaret, this is not your only resource that you've written for all of us to enjoy. Can you share some of your other resources and what's available or what you've learned that we may learn if we pick up a copy?   Margaret Feinberg: (55:06 - 56:31) Yeah. You know, I've definitely the most passive. I just gave four years of my life to this book and Bible study.   I do a ridiculous amount of research, so, I'm very, very slow. So, top would be The God You Need to Know book and Bible study. But I think another one, and you referenced it earlier, is a book called Fight Back with Joy, and it's also a Bible study.   And it just takes a look. You know, it tells a little bit about my cancer story, but it's really about anybody who's battling anything. You know, sometimes in life we pick the battles, and sometimes the battles pick us.   And sometimes that's in your marriage, maybe a custody battle. It may be a health issue. It may be a financial calamity.   It may be the loss of a business. There's just so much in a strange relationship with a kid that you love so much. And in that darkness, you know, it's so easy to sink.   And this book and study is just, it shows that more than whimsy, joy is the weapon we use to fight life's battles. And gives just tons of practical tactics on how to enact that and what that looks like, and how, most importantly, how to rally around others in a healthy, beautiful way when they are in the midst of that. I think one of the failures of the church today is to really equip and train believers of every size and form of how to love others well in the midst of their pain.   What to say, what not to say, how to give, how to support. And this book and resource really does that well.   Laura Dugger: (56:32 - 56:43) Oh, so grateful for all of those. We'll make sure and add a link in the show notes. And if we want to connect or follow you after today's conversation, where would you like to direct us online?   Margaret Feinberg: (56:44 - 57:09) You can find me at my website at Margaret Feinberg. I do my most loving of my people, I'll just be honest, through my e-newsletter. I mean, I sit down, I pray over, I pour my heart and my life into that.   It's quiet. Nobody ever sees it. I am also on socials, on Instagram, at Facebook, at MA Feinberg, at Margaret Feinberg.   But I would love to connect with you. And if anybody wants to email, my email is hello@margaretfeinberg.com.   Laura Dugger: (57:09 - 57:26) Love it. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.   And so, as my final question for you today, Margaret, what is your savvy sauce?   Margaret Feinberg: (57:27 - 58:05) My savvy sauce is waking up every day and asking the Holy Spirit one question. When I don't know what to pray, I just say, “Holy Spirit, order my steps.” And if you will do this, you will do this for just 15 days.   I have a belief. It may just change the course of your life. The great part, it takes less than 30 seconds.   This is not doing heavy lifting. This is not time consuming, man. If you're raising those littles and you are overwhelmed, if you're running a business and you are overwhelmed, something very simple like this can change everything.   Laura Dugger: (58:06 - 58:10) So good. And you are so obviously connected to the vine, to the Lord. And I just want you to receive this, the fruit of the spirit.   I have experienced every single one in this conversation from engaging with you today. You are loving, joy, peace, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. And all wrapped into one.   So, praise the Lord for the way He made you. You are an absolute delight. I have enjoyed this so much.   Thank you for being my guest.   Margaret Feinberg: (58:10 - 58:11) What a privilege and joy. Grateful for you.   Laura Dugger: (58:11 - 1:02:30) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Rabbi Jacobson will discuss the following topics: Post Holidays Follow-Up What should be the focus of our work during these first days of Cheshvan? Why do the revelations of Tishrei, specifically on Shemini Atzeres, give birth only on Pesach? And if that's the case, what does our avodah entail during these months? Can MarCheshvan also mean Gmar Cheshvan? Why the need for Tohu? Why does G-d elaborate on the place of Abraham's departure (lech lecha m'artzecha, um'moladetecha um'beis avicha) and is vague about his destination (el ha'aretz asher er'echa)? Why was it important for Abraham to leave his land, birthplace, and parents' home? What are the three types of subjectivity that impede your ability to discover your true self and move forward in life?  Is “G-d speaking to Abraham” literal or metaphorical? Was Terach an abusive father? Was Abraham the first Jew? How do we explain “those that bless you shall be blessed”? Who was Melchizedek King of Salem? Why was the priesthood taken from him due to his blessing Abraham before G-d? What is the significance of adding a hei to Abram and changing his name to Abraham? What was the bris bein ha'besarim? Why does the Torah not tell us specifics about Abraham's great deeds and only uses hints that seem materialistic (about his wealth, cattle, battle victories, travels)? What can we learn from Yishmael about Hamas and the Arab/Muslim world today?  What was the sin of building the Tower of Babel? What do we learn from the fact that G-d stopped their conspiracy by confusing their languages and disrupting their unity? How can we express our gratitude to G-d for his blessings in releasing the last hostages safely? What should we do about the upcoming NYC mayoral election? Are we allowed to pray and write notes to the Ohel asking for brochos that Mamdani should not win the election?Lech Lecha Noach  Hostages Freed New York City Mayoral Candidate Zohran Mamdani 

The story of God’s faithfulness to Hannah The name Hannah means Grace. “There was a certain man from Ramathaim, a Zuphite from the hill country of Ephraim, whose name was Elkanah son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephraimite. He had two wives; one was called […]

Rabbi Jacobson will discuss the following topics: Post Holidays What should be the focus of our work during these last days of Tishrei? What is the meaning of the V'Yaakov holach l'darko announcement after the Tishrei holidays? Why is this next month called MarCheshvan, mar meaning “bitter”? Can mar be interpreted as “master”? What are your thoughts on the over-consumption of alcohol on Simchas Torah in our communities? Why should drinking be allowed at all? What is the meaning of the Chassidic aphorism that “the way you establish yourself on Shabbos Bereishis is how your year will go”? Why does the Torah begin with the letter beis and not alef? If it's because beis is the acronym for blessing (brocha), then why does the Hebrew alphabet and the Ten Commandments begin with an alef? What is the meaning of Tohu in the second verse of this week's parsha? What is its connection to Kabbalistic concept of Tohu? Did Tohu have free choice to prevent the containers from shattering? What is the meaning of man being created in the Divine image? Were Adam and Eve commanded to follow any laws besides not eating from the Tree of Knowledge? Did they have access to the Torah? Were they considered Jewish? If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree of knowledge, would Moshiach have come right away? If so, how would all the divine sparks have been elevated, and what have we achieved over the last 5786 years? Was the Garden of Eden a physical place on Earth? Where is its location? Did Cain ever repent for killing Abel? Why did the Chabad Gabbai wear a shtreimel when he “sold” the mitzvos on Shabbos Bereishis? Why don't Chabad chassidim wear shtreimels?” How should we react to the recent release of the hostages and the peace proposal advanced by President Trump?Bereishis Hostages Freed 

Elaine Heath is the abbess of Spring Forest, a new monastic community in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Spring Forest centers around communal prayer and meals, a vibrant farm, refugee support, and other ministries you can read about here. You can learn more about Elaine's work as an author and speaker on her website, or in articles like this one from the Center for Action and Contemplation.Many thanks to Elaine and her husband Randall for welcoming Ron and I and our audio producer, Colin, to the farm last June. Besides relishing the good company of our hosts, we enjoyed harvesting cabbage, feasting and praying with the Sunday evening group, walking through the woods, and petting some good-natured goats.Dr. Elaine HeathOn the farm.Someone had to help harvest the cabbage, so Ron and Colin and I pitched in.Elaine, husband Randall, and I in their lovely home.TRANSCRIPTElaine Heath If you are nurtured by traditional church—or let's say, conventional church—keep doing it, but also realize that for other people that's not nurturing. It feels dry and lifeless, and it's clear the Spirit is doing something new. So instead of insisting everybody stop doing the new thing, and everybody has to come and do the conventional thing, you can be conventional in your worship and bless and make space for others so that we have a plethora of experiments going on.Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I'm your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We're exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we're paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship.Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Elaine Heath. Elaine is founder and abbess of Spring Forest, a new monastic community centered on a 23-acre forest and farm property near Hillsboro, North Carolina. The farm supplies a CSA and supports food security for refugees and serves as the setting for outdoor programs for kids, cooking classes, potlucks, forest walks and more. But the Spring Forest community is a dispersed network of people who move in and out of the farm space in a variety of ways. They live on the farm for a time, they visit often to volunteer, or they simply join the community online for daily prayer. We got to visit the farm last spring, and I can tell you that Elaine's long experience with new monasticism, trauma-informed care, and contemplative practice make her an ideal curator of refugia space. The vibe on the farm is peaceful, orderly, and full of life. It's a place of holy experimentation in new ways to form Christian community and reconnect with the land. Let's get to it.Debra Rienstra Elaine, thank you for talking with me today. It's really great to be with you.Elaine Heath Yeah, I'm glad to be with you too.Debra Rienstra So you served in traditional parish ministry and in religious academia for many years, and then in 2018 you retired from that work to found Spring Forest. Why a farm and a new monastic community? What inspired and influenced this particular expression of faith?Elaine Heath I've always loved farms and forests. But actually, my dream to do this started about 25 years ago, and my husband and I bought a 23 acre property in North Central Ohio, right when I was right out of my PhD program and I got my first academic job at my alma mater, which is Ashland Theological Seminary. So I went there to direct the Doctor of Ministry program, and we bought this beautiful property. It had a little house that looked like the ranger station, and it had a stream and a big labyrinth cut in the field, and it had beautiful soil to grow, you know, for market gardening. And what we planned to do was gradually develop retreat ministries there. My husband was going to build some hermitages up in the woods, because I did a lot of spiritual direction with pastors who were burned out and traumatized, and we felt like that, you know, as I got older and phased out of academia, that would be something we could do together.So we were there for a couple years, and then I was recruited to go to Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodist University. And we were very sad to leave our property behind, but we were clear that we were being called to Texas. So we bought a home in the city in a sort of mixed income, racially diverse neighborhood in Garland, and it was a big house with a nice yard, and soon after starting to teach evangelism—which, I kind of created my own path for how to teach evangelism, because I don't believe in selling Jesus or any of those kinds of colonizing things. So I was teaching about living a contemplative life and practicing social and environmental justice and being good news in the world, and being good neighbors to all our neighbors, and thinking of our neighbors as us and not them. And I had them reading Shane Claiborne and the people writing with the emerging church movement at the time, and pretty soon, I had students in my class coming to my office every week. It was a different student, but the same tears and the same kind of narrative: “Dr. Heath, I think I'm going to have to leave the church to answer my call. Tell me what I should do.” And it was because they were being called to do innovative, new monastic ministry, missional, new monastic kinds of things. But our denomination in particular didn't quite get it, even though early Methodism was very much like that.So I realized fairly quickly that this was God calling me through these students to focus my research and writing and my teaching in the area of emergence. Emergence theory, what's happening in the world. How do these currents of emergence intersect with what's happening politically and environmentally, and what's happening, you know, in the economy and with the church. So pretty soon, I don't know, it wasn't very long, I felt God was calling me to gather students and start some experiments outside, out in the city. And so I had a prayer partner, and we were praying for a house to come available, so that we could start a new monastic house. And she came to me one day and she said, “I saw the house coming. It'll be here soon.” And I said, “Okay.” I had no money for a house. You know, kind of a lowly professor, didn't make that much. And within two weeks, one of our neighbors came to me, who didn't really know me well at all, and said, “Hey, my mom has a rental property. It's been in our family for a long time, and we wondered if you might have some students that would like to live there. We won't even charge rent, just pay their utilities and not have drug parties or whatnot.” And I said, “No, that's unlikely,” you know. So I said, you know, I could throw the phone down and ran down to get in her car and go over to this house with her. And we were driving over, and she says, “You know, it's not the best neighborhood.” I said, “Perfect!” But we got there, and it was a really great little three bedroom house in a predominantly Latina neighborhood, and that was our first new monastic house. So I asked three of the students who'd been crying in my office, “Would you be willing to break your leases wherever you live and come and live here for a year?” And I can assign a spiritual director to work with you, and I can write a curriculum for an independent study on the theory and practice of new monasticism. And we can develop a Rule of Life based on our United Methodist membership vows. And they all immediately said yes, and so that's how we got started with our first house.Elaine Heath And then right around the same time, I started a missional house church that was quickly relocated into the neighborhood where most of the refugees are resettled in Dallas, because one of my students brought six Congolese men to our little house church worship, and that that was the beginning of realizing we were called to work with refugees.Debra Rienstra Oh, I see.Elaine Heath So that all got started around 2008. And by 2009, there was a student who came to Perkins who had been a commercial real estate banker on Wall Street. And he came to Perkins as a student. He was an older man. And we were going on my very first pilgrimage to Iona, Northumbria, and Lindisfarne, and Michael Hahn was with us too. He and I team-taught this class, so it was my first one. But it turned out that Larry Duggins, the student, had come to seminary because he really wanted to be equipped to help young adults who were feeling disillusioned with the church but wanted to be out in the world doing good work. And he started describing what he was called to, and I'm like, “Well, that's what I'm doing with these students.” So we joined forces and created a nonprofit called Missional Wisdom Foundation, and within three years, we had a network of eight new monastic communities across the metroplex. They were all anchored at local churches. Some of them were parsonages that weren't being used. And we wove into the expectations and sort of the lifestyle of those houses, urban agriculture.Debra Rienstra Oh, I was waiting for the farm to come back into it. Yeah, because I'm seeing these threads of experimentation and monasticism and place. We're sitting here today on your current farm land. So it's really interesting to hear all these threads being developed early on in an urban context.Elaine Heath Yes, it was quite something. These houses were all in different social contexts. There was one house, the Bonhoeffer house, that was in East Dallas, in a neighborhood that was not only mixed income and racially diverse, but also used to be where the mayor lived. And now there are people who are unhoused living there, and there are also people with nice houses living there. So it was a very interesting neighborhood. So that house, we learned quickly that you needed to take a year to get to know the neighborhood before you try to figure out how you're going to support whatever justice work needs to happen in the neighborhood. But that house got really close with the unhoused community and did a lot of good ministry with the guys and a few women. Then there was one for undocumented workers, the Romero House, and just different social contexts. But all of them had a backyard garden or, you know, some type of growing food kind of thing. And I used to take students to this farm that was an urban farm in DeSoto, which is just south of Dallas, where it was quite small, but these were former missionaries, the type that have crusades and show the Jesus film and everything in sort of poor countries. And then they had an awakening that happened, and they realized they were being called to help people in orphanages learn how to grow their own food in a sustainable way and raise the living standard for the whole village. So they had this little farm, and I would take students there every semester to experience the conversion of thought that this couple had over what mission is, and to experience the beauty and joy of tilapia that provide food for the lettuce, that provide for the bees, you know. So this closed system. So that also affected my imagination about what I really wanted to do in the future.And so gradually, the years—we were there for 11 years, and we lived in community the whole time that we were there. By the time we came here for me to work at Duke, we had a very clear picture of what we wanted to do here. And so we looked for the property back when we had to sell that first farm, when we were so sad about selling it, I had an experience in prayer where I sensed God was saying to me, “Don't give up on this dream. It's sacred, and it will happen in the future on a better piece of property, at a better time in your life for this.” And so when it was time to move here, I said to Randall, “This is the time. Let's look for that property.” So that's how we landed here.Friendly, very contented dairy goats, hanging out in the afternoon.Debra Rienstra Yeah. When talking about your students, you mentioned yesterday that you like to “ruin them for fake church.” So what do you mean by fake church, and how exactly do you ruin them for it?Elaine Heath Well, you know, church is really the people and not the building. You all know that. It's the people and we're called to be a very different kind of people who are a healing community, that neighbor well, that give ourselves away, that regard our neighbors—human and non human—as part of us, whether they think they're part of us or not. We have this sort of posture in life. And when I think of how Jesus formed the church, Jesus had this little ragtag group of friends, and they traveled around and did stuff and talked about it, and they got mad at each other and had power struggles and drama and, you know, and then Jesus would process the drama with them. And he would do these outrageous things, you know, breaking sort of cultural taboo to demonstrate: this is what love really looks like. And so we don't get to do much of any of that, sitting in a pew on Sunday morning, facing forward while the people up in the front do things. And so many churches—maybe you've never experienced this, but I certainly have. The pastor's sort of the proxy disciple while people kind of watch and make judgments and decide whether or not they want to keep listening to those sermons.Debra Rienstra Oh yes.Elaine Heath So when you experience Christian life in a community where it's both natural, it's just the way you live in the world, and it's also liturgically rich, and the life is a contemplative life, and it's also a life of deep missional engagement with the world— that other version of church, it's like oatmeal with no flavoring in it. It makes you, I mean, it's about the life together. It's how we live in this world. It's not about sitting somewhere for an hour once a week and staring forward.Debra Rienstra Right. Yeah, so I would, you know, of course, I would describe what you're describing as refugia, being the people of refugia. You know? Not that I'm—we'll come back to traditional worship and traditional forms of faith and religion. But it seems like what you're doing is living into something you say on your website that we are in the midst of a new reformation in the church, and I certainly sense that too. I think the evidence is all around us, and the research bears out that we've reached this inflection point, and it's a painful inflection point that a lot of people think of as decline, because living through it feels confusing and bewildering and dark and full of loss. So what is your sense of when we are, in this point in history, in particular, for those of us who've been part of church communities, where are we finding ourselves? Why is it so confusing?Elaine Heath I really believe we're in a dark night of the soul as the church in the West and perhaps places in the East too. I know we've exported a capitalist version of church all over the world, sadly. But I believe we're in a dark night of the soul, you know, classically understood, where it's spirit-breathed. It's not that the devil is doing something to us. It's spirit-breathed to detach us from our sort of corporate ego that thinks we get to show up and boss the world around and act like we own the joint.Debra Rienstra We call that church of empire.Elaine Heath Yeah. And so I think that's what's happening. And when, you know, if you study the literature, if you work in spiritual direction, and you're looking at what happens with the dark night of the soul. That's a real dark night, not a clinical depression or something like that, but an actual dark night. You have to go through it. You can't bypass it. You can't work your way out of it. You can't talk your way out of it. And what happens is you find yourself increasingly hungry for simplicity, for a simple but clear experience of God, because it's like God's disappeared. There's a deep loneliness, even a sort of cold hell, to being in a dark night of the soul. And so there's a restlessness, there's a longing for actual experience of God. There's a feeling of futility. Things that used to work don't work anymore. So you know the threefold path? The purgation, illumination and union is one way that we've learned to think about what happens. The purgation part is— we're there.Debra Rienstra We're being purgated.Elaine Heath We're being purgated, yeah. And at the same time that we're having these flashes of intuitive knowing, this sort of illumination is coming. “Oh, let's pay attention to the saints and mystics who lived through things like this. What gave them life? What helped them to keep showing up and being faithful?” And we're having moments of union too, when we feel like, “Oh, discipleship means I make sure that the trees are cared for and not just people. Oh, all living things are interconnected. Quantum physics is teaching us a spiritual truth we should have known already.” So the three parts of that contemplative path are happening simultaneously. But I think what feels most forward to a lot of people is the purgation piece where you're like, “Oh, things are just dropping away. Numbers are dropping. Things that used to work don't work. What's going to happen now?” Sort of a sense of chaos, confusion. Tohu va bohu, yeah.Debra Rienstra Yeah, do you want me to explain what that is?Elaine Heath Yeah, chaos and confusion. From the beginning of time.Debra Rienstra It's the realm out of which creation is formed. So the idea that the spirit is drawing us into this dark night is actually really reassuring. We are where we're supposed to be. And even though it feels confusing and painful, there are these moments of wisdom—that's so reassuring. In fact, one of the things you write: the new reformation is all about the emergence. So this emergence is happening of a generous, hospitable, equitable form of Christianity that heals the wounds of the world. What is your vision about what the church needs to release and hold and create right now?Elaine Heath We need to release everything that even slightly has a hint of empire, that we have thought of as what it means to be the church, because that completely reverts what church is supposed to be about. So giving up empire, we need to take up the great kenotic hymn of Philippians two and actually live it.Debra Rienstra The self emptying hymn.Elaine Heath The self emptying. And it's not—I know that that can be problematic when we're thinking of women or, you know, groups that have been forced to empty themselves in an exploited way. But that's not really what that's all about. It's about showing up to God, paying attention, seeing what God's invitation is, then cooperating with that and just releasing the outcome. That's what that's about, and really finding out, what am I in this world for? What are we in this world for? And being about that and not about something else.Debra Rienstra Yeah, it's hard to release the ways that we have done things. Well, you have a congregation, you have a pastor, you have a sanctuary, you have programs, you want the kids to come, you need tithes, all of those systems. And actually, what you're doing here at Spring Forest—let's talk about that. What you're doing here at Spring Forest doesn't have any of that. Sunday services. There's no church building. You have barn buildings, you have farm buildings. No Sunday school, no adult ed, no choirs, organs, praise bands, any of that stuff, right? Do you think of Spring Forest as a new model for church? Perhaps one among many?Elaine Heath It's one among many. We're definitely shaped by traditional monasticism. We're shaped by early Methodism. We're influenced by the Catholic Worker Movement, and definitely Bonhoeffer's work and a number of others: the Clarence Jordan and Koinonia farms. And so we're influenced by all of those. We do have music sometimes at Forest Feast, if we have someone that can lead it, and, you know, do a good job. But the backbone of our worship life is morning and evening prayer. And that is so wonderful. You were here last night for Forest Feast, and we use the same structure we use for morning and evening prayer, and we have a group of about six people who are writing the liturgies for us, who have been writing for a year and a half now.Debra Rienstra Who are those people?Elaine Heath Well, there's Steve Taylor is our lay leader, and his wife, Cheryl, and then there's Donna Patterson, who's—none of them were here last night. They all had to go somewhere. But some of them are lay people. Some of them are clergy.Debra Rienstra And they don't live here?Elaine Heath No, they live— well, some of the people that write live far away, and they're in our digital community. But, yeah, Steve and Cheryl live in Lumberton, which is, you know, almost two hours away. But they're beautiful. I mean, if you go online and look at some of the last month, look at the prayers and see the—they're just truly beautiful, and they reflect our spirituality of our community.Debra Rienstra Yeah. So the community, it seems to me, you have had people living on the farm itself, but your community, like the Iona community, is both located here on this land, but also dispersed. And so you have that interaction, that conversation between this residential life. So let's try to describe for listeners: there's the farm. You live here with your husband. You have interns from Duke. You have a farm. What do you call Larry?Elaine Heath He's our farm coach.Debra Rienstra Coach, yes, I love that. They have the farm coach who has the farming knowledge that you all sort of follow. You have chefs. They don't live here either, but they come in. So you have a lot of people coming in and out on this farm. And you do regenerative farming. You have programs for kids, you have refugee support, and you can talk about that, trauma informed rest for spiritual leaders. And then a number of other things. The farm produces vegetables and those go to a CSA, and also a lot of it is donated. Why this particular assembly of activities? How does it all fit together? And what are the theological principles beneath each of these endeavors?Elaine Heath The overarching principle is that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to every believer and to every person, let's just be honest. And the job of the pastor, the pastor teacher, is to fan those gifts into flame, to help them have the support they need to use their gifts and that the ministries should be shaped by the gifts of the people, which means you can't use a cookie cutter. And we have numerically a small community, but incredibly high capacity of people. So we have these gifts that they have, and then the ministries are emerging out of those gifts. And it might seem like, why do you have refugee support? And you know, just name anything else we're doing. How does this fit together? The organizing principle—okay, so you have the foundation. These are gifts given by the Spirit. Our ministries are emerging from our gifts. And the organizing sort of a cohesive piece is our rule of life that ties everything together. And so our rule of life is prayer, work, table, neighbor and rest. And that rule of life came about after we lived here for a year, when we first started Spring Forest with—there was another pastor that co-founded it with me, Francis Kinyua, who's from Kenya, and he was my student in Dallas, and did all those other things with me. So we invited him to come. We had to work with three different bishops to kind of make it work. But it worked, you know. Anyway, we just waited for a year to see. We had lots of work to do with getting the farm ready to go and Francis and I went to Church World Service right away to say, “Hey, we have a lot of experience supporting refugees, and we would like to do that here as well.” So we got started with that, but we waited a year and then just articulated, what are the practices that we do that are keeping us grounded here and keeping us right side up. And it was those things, so we named it.Debra Rienstra Okay, you were just doing it, and then you named those things.Elaine Heath Instead of creating sort of an aspirational rule and tried to live into it, we named what was actually working, what was actually grounding us and felt life giving.Debra Rienstra Hi, it's me, Debra. If you are enjoying this podcast episode, go ahead and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. If you have a minute, leave a review. Good reviews help more listeners discover this podcast. To keep up with all the Refugia news, I invite you to subscribe to the Refugia newsletter on Substack. This is my fortnightly newsletter for people of faith who care about the climate crisis and want to go deeper. Every two weeks, I feature climate news, deeper dives, refugia sightings and much more. Join our community at refugianewsletter.substack.com. For even more goodies, including transcripts and show notes for this podcast, check out my website at debrarienstra.com. D-E-B-R-A-R-I-E-N-S-T-R-A dot com. Thanks so much for listening. We're glad you're part of this community. And now back to the interview.Debra Rienstra You do partner a lot with, you know, “regular church folk.” It's that sort of in-and-out permeable membrane. How do you think about the relationship of what you're doing here, with Spring Forest, with the work of sort of standard congregations, is there like a mutuality? How do you think about that?Elaine Heath It's just like traditional monasticism. You've got a community that have this rule of life they follow. People who are not living in the community can become Oblates to the rule of life and have a special relationship. And usually those people go to church somewhere else. Part of our ethic here is we want to resist competition between churches, so we don't meet on Sundays to do things like programmatically. We usually just rest on Sundays and watch a movie and eat popcorn, you know.Debra Rienstra That's a spiritual practice.Elaine Heath But also, so there's that sort of historic piece, and people from churches come here for retreats. Lead teams come for retreats. People come—pastors, we have a lot of pastors who come here for a retreat. But also we are a mission community, so we're very active with supporting refugees. We're very active with the food programs that we have, and that gives people from a church—lots of churches don't have things like that going on. They don't have the resources for it, or they haven't figured it out. But that way, we can partner with churches and people can come here and they can actually get their hands in the soil, and they can teach somebody to read, and they can see little children learning where food comes from. They can help the chef with her kitchen things, you know. So it's a wonderful way to provide spiritual formation and missional formation to congregations that don't have those resources. And we can do these things together.Debra Rienstra Yeah. And that's that's premised on this being a place, an embodied place, a refugia space that people can come to. Yeah. I think that's a wonderful model. Do you yourself ever feel a sense of loss for “the old ways?” And I'm just thinking of this because at the beginning of your book, God Unbound, which is about Galatians, you write about how Paul challenges the Galatians to let go of their tight grip on the past, and you write about how you, reading that, felt yourself like a little bit of a traditionalist, you know, sort of defending, “But what about the past? What about the old ways?” Which you have loved too, right? So, how would you counsel people who have loved traditional church despite everything, and really do feel this sense of loss and wonder anxiously about what's next?Elaine Heath Yeah, I feel empathy. You know, something was going on in the Middle East at the time. I can't remember exactly the situation. There's always something going on, but it had to do with people's culture being wiped out and being told that what they believed didn't count and wasn't right and everything. And I was feeling such grief for them, and then all of a sudden, you know, I'm in Galatians, and think, “Well, that's how those people felt.” And even myself, there are things in my own daily practice that are—they're precious to me. My way of praying in the morning, the facing into the forest, you know, and things like that, that are rituals for me. And thinking, you know, if somebody told me “that doesn't matter,” how hard that would be. So I think in the spiritual journey, we come to the place, if we keep maturing, where we realize, in Merton's words, that so often we think it's the finger pointing to the moon, we think the finger is the moon. And it's that way about rituals and all sorts of things that we do, and we get to a place where we realize that intellectually and even spiritually, in an emotional way. But you can't force people to get to that point. This is something that happens as we grow and mature as life goes by. So what I have said to many people is, “If you are nurtured by traditional church, or, let's say, conventional church,”—because which traditional church are we talking about? One, right here, middle class, white, are we talking about Brazil? —”So if that nurtures you, keep doing it. But also realize that for other people, that's not nurturing. It feels dry and lifeless, and it's clear the Spirit is doing something new.” So instead of insisting everybody stop doing the new thing, and everybody has to come and do the conventional thing, you can be conventional in your worship and bless and make space for others so that we have a plethora of experiments going on. Because we're in a time of great emergence, as Phyllis Tickle wrote, and we need lots of experiments.Debra Rienstra Yeah. I appreciated what you wrote about trial and error. It's a time of trial and error, and it's okay to try things and have them not work. And that fits the refugia model too, really, really well. I mean, refugia don't always work. They just sometimes fail. Let's talk about a couple of key metaphors that I've noticed in your writings and in the website for Spring Forest too. One is that metaphor of the mycelial network, so the underground fungus that connects the creatures, the beings, the plants, the trees of the forest. I think is a wonderful metaphor too, for the way that faith and climate people, people who are worried about the climate crisis, and also people of faith—it's a great metaphor for how they're finding each other and connecting and building this sort of cultural and spiritual soil where the seeds of the future can grow. How is that metaphor meaningful for you here at Spring Forest?Elaine Heath Well, it means a lot in terms of the first of all, the diversity of expressions of ministry that are even here on the property, but also, especially in our dispersed community, through following the rule of life together, which—we are a practice-based community, rather than a dogma-based community. So as people are practicing those practices where they live and work and play, then they are forming community in a very specific, contextual way where they are. I think of Steve and Cheryl again, the friends I mentioned earlier. He's our lay leader. They live in a, I think a working class neighborhood in Lumberton, which is the land of the Lumbee here in North Carolina. And they have developed a wonderful, just neighborhood ministry there with—and they've been able, through potluck dinners and front yard barbecues and remembering people's birthdays and things like this, they've developed this friendship network in the neighborhood with people that are on complete opposite sides, politically, racially, and this is in the South, where you've got all sorts of issues. And they've taken the sort of ethic of Spring Forest here, but it's caused a mushroom to bloom there that looks really different from here. They don't have a farm, they don't have a forest, they've got this neighborhood. But the neighboring, the praying, the tabling, resting, all of those things are part of how they live there. And so it's fruiting there. And it's the same in other places in the world where we have people that live there.Debra Rienstra It's a good example, too, of how eating together is sacramental, both here and in these other networks that are connected to you. The Garden of Eden and the vision of the New Earth in Revelation are both important to you, that that whole long scriptural arc begin in a garden, end in a garden city, and then the Tree of Life is also your symbol, your logo. So how would you situate our work today as people of faith in that long arc of history, from the garden to the Garden City, and how does the Tree of Life fit into that for you?Elaine Heath There's a way in which the whole story is happening simultaneously. Does that make sense?Debra Rienstra Yeah.Elaine Heath It's all happening beyond time, sort of simultaneously. So sometimes we're living in the garden and we've been deceived, and now we have to figure out what to do, and sometimes we're rebuilding the wall, and sometimes we're on our way to Bethlehem, and sometimes we're in the garden of the new creation. And we can see it, and we're living that truth even while there's still the wall being built. There's a simultaneity to it all. But for me, I think especially of the theology of Julian of Norwich. That's why we have her icon here. There's this vision of love making all things new, that God, Christ, the risen Christ, says in Revelation 21:5, “Behold, I make all things new.” All things, not just a handful of people who get the right doctrine, not just—no, all things: horses and amoeba and all things are being made new in mysterious ways that we can't completely know.Debra Rienstra And that's Colossians one and Romans eight as well.Elaine Heath It's this thread that comes through scripture, and we get to participate in that, even while we don't see all the things completely made new, we get to be part of that. And to me, that's what it means to follow Christ. That's what it means to be a disciple. And to be the love of God enfleshed in this world is to keep participating in the making of all things new. This is why healing has such a central role in my theological vision and my practice, is it's making all things new.Debra Rienstra Healing land, healing people, healing communities.Elaine Heath Yeah, yeah. Healing theology. Theology has been so damaged by patriarchy and philosophy and all sorts of things, you know, and racism.Debra Rienstra Colonization. Yeah, so that embodiment is important even theologically, because we're not aiming for some abstract doctrinal perfection. We're not aiming to become disembodied creatures. We're aiming for this embodied redemption. And so working on the farm, healing, you know, getting muddy, walking through forests, harvesting veg, and you're able to invite people into that embodiment. Little kids doing yoga, I think that's wonderful. You know, just finding this kind of rest in their own little bodies. Eating—one of the most embodied and kinship-with-creation things we do, right? Taking it inside ourselves. And that, I think, is condensed in ritual. So I know that you have been playfully experimenting with rituals. I was able to be a part of the Forest Feast last night with my husband Ron and our friend Colin. And it was this beautifully curated event where we shared table together and then went through this prayer sequence that you described, and it was beautifully participative. I noticed you do a blessing of the animals too on the farm. So good thing these are blessed chickens and blessed dairy goats, blessed dogs and cats. What other sort of liturgical shenanigans have you tried to help people live into this embodied faith practice?Elaine Heath We do so many things. It's so much fun. It's never boring. It's never boring. We have a ritual in the fall, in late November, where we tuck the farm in and put it to bed for the winter, and we have the children come, we get some compost. You know, we've cleared out the beds, and they're gonna rest now. And so the children put some compost in. And we have a liturgy that we use. We light candles, and we thank Mother Earth for the food, we thank God for the opportunities. And so this is one of the things that we do ritualistically. We also have a spring ritual. It's very Hebrew-Bible like, right? With these seasons and the crops and the things with the liturgical seasons, we also have done a bunch of things. My favorite one so far was for epiphany, and this was two years ago. And so I had the interns from Duke Divinity School do the bulk of the planning. I just gave them a little bit of guidance about the four-fold order of worship and just some things like that. So we had a journey through the forest. It started here. We went on the forest trail. Of course, it was dark outside, and they had gone ahead and set up fairy lights at certain places where we're going to stop. And one of the interns' fiance was a musician, so he had his guitar, and he had one of those things where you can play the harmonica and play the guitar at the same time, but he was our troubadour, and all of us were the Magi. So there's this troop of Magi, and we would stop at each station along the way, and there were prompt questions that we would take five minutes, and people could respond to these questions. There would be a scripture reading, and we respond to the question, we go to the next station. And it was so amazing. People shared from their lives in a very deep way. It surprised me how quickly they went deep. Well, it was dark, and there were these twinkle lights, and there was the troubadour. Then we finally got up to the Christ child, and we went into the goat barn. And honestly, I get chills every time I even remember this. But the students had set up in the goat barn—and the goats were in the barn. Okay, they were behind a little chain link thing so they didn't step on the icons and everything. But they had set up an altar at the base of the feeding trough with a big icon of Mary with the Christ Child, candles, and some other things there. There were different icons and some fairy lights. And we went in there, and we all crowded in and began to sing. We sang “This Little Light of Mine,” we sang some Christmas carols, and finished the story. And then we came back to the house and had some snacks and talked about what kind of wisdom was given to us since we were Magi. We were going to be people seeking wisdom and seeking—it was the most beautiful thing. And we've done lots of things like that. We see the land here is a primary text to learn from and to listen to and to observe, not as a metaphor, but as, it's actually a conversation partner. So we do things like that.Debra Rienstra That playfulness is so exciting to me, this sense of using our tradition, using our scriptures, using the skills that we've honed as people of faith over generations, singing together, praying together, but experimenting with those things in new contexts and new ways, in new forms of embodiment that are just faithful and yet playful. And so, as you say, people go deep because they're sort of jarred out of their habitual ways, and that can be such a great formational moment and bonding moment too, and it's very memorable. We remember that in ways—you know, you had such joy on your face as you're describing that. What would you say as you look back over the last, well, let's see, it's been almost eight years? Seven, eight years here at this location. What would you say has given you the most anguish and what has given you the most joy?Elaine Heath Oh, anguish. Which story should I tell?Debra Rienstra Yeah, I don't want to make it sound like it's all been beautiful and romantic and perfect.Elaine Heath Whenever you have community, you have drama. Well, you know, at your typical church, you're gonna have drama sometimes. But what we've found a few times, and it's pretty predictable. This happens in traditional monasteries too, which is why they have novitiate periods that are sometimes quite lengthy and sort of staggered, like you put your toe in the water. People of very high capacity who are deeply grounded spiritually and have a real vision for the gospel, are attracted to community life like this. People who are really hurt, who've had a lot of brokenness, especially from religious institutions or abusive situations, trauma that that is unresolved, that has a lot of unhealed wounds, are also attracted to places like this, often with a sort of utopian hope, because of, you know, life's deficits.Debra Rienstra And they feel that this is a place of healing, and they're right about that.Elaine Heath They're right about it. And so what actually happens is sometimes with the person, the second category of person, will come and join in and just be so full of gladness, because, “Oh, these, these are real people, like they're really doing things in the world. This is what I've longed for.” But then, as relationships form, and we're doing life together, and we all bump up against each other at times, the unhealed wounds fester. And the way I see it is, God's bringing them to a place where, if they'll just do their inner work now, now that it's clear what's the next step—if they'll take the next step, whether it's get some therapy, stay on your meds, get some support for your addiction recovery, whatever the things are—if you'll take the next step, then this is a very supportive community that can help you. It's a village that can be around you and you will heal here in the context of this village. But sometimes people are not willing or not able, or it's not time in their own sense of what they can do, and so then they'll leave. Sometimes when people leave, this happens in traditional churches, for whatever reason, this is a common sort of psychological reaction, they'll create some sort of chaotic drama to be the excuse for leaving, rather than have to face the fact that it was time for me to take the next step, and I was too scared. Because that takes a lot of self awareness, you know, to come to realizations about things like that. So I know from talking to people, from, you know, friends that are in traditional monasteries and convents that this is a common thing that happens there. So it happens here sometimes, and it's never easy. It's always painful and always challenging, you know, but with God's help, we get through it. And so that's the anguish, when those kinds of things happen. We've had a time or two where, over the last 20 years, really, where a person would come in, usually a young adult who's very idealistic, and they're like, “This isn't a new monastic community. You're not forcing people to pray three times a day!” You know, whatever the thing is that they have in their head that is supposed to be, because we're pretty gracious, you know.Debra Rienstra You don't get up at three in the morning.Elaine Heath Yeah, that's not us. We can't do that because, especially if you've got families with children and, you know, you've got to get up and go to work in the morning. So sometimes there will be somebody that figures they know more than everybody else in the room, and they want to take over and run the joint. You know, that's not going to happen. So then that sometimes creates some anguish. What about the joy? The joy is—and there's so much to give me joy. I really, really love seeing people come alive, like I really love seeing people who have, especially people who have been harmed by religion, because of their identity or because of anything, and they find deep spiritual friendship. They find how to connect, in Buechner's words, their deep passion with the world's great need, and start a new thing. And it gives them so much joy. And it's actually helping people. It's helping the world. And just sort of fanning that flame, that gives me a lot of joy. I have so much joy being in touch with the land and the animals. I just really experience them directly mediating God to me. I feel the divine life in them, and I feel, I guess I get a lot of dopamine hits when I'm out there harvesting and when I'm, you know, brushing the goats and talking to the chickens and whatnot.Debra Rienstra They are blessed chickens!Elaine Heath They are blessed chickens.Debra Rienstra What advice would you give to church people who, even though they love their church and their community, recognize that something needs to change, but they don't know where to start? What advice would you give?Elaine Heath To start in their own home, if at all possible, start in their own neighborhood. Start having neighbors over for dinner. Do not tell them we're going to have a Bible study now, because that's—it's not to have a Bible study. It's to form friendships with our neighbors. Start neighboring well. Figure out who lives on my street. Who lives across the street? Invite them for dinner. Have neighborhood potlucks. We did this in Texas, right after we moved there, I think they're still going. We'd have 50 people in our house sometimes. But just invite the neighbors for dinner. Have a potluck. Get to know them. Remember their birthdays, go to their kids' graduation. When you find out their mother died, go to the funeral. It's so simple. It's just such basic neighboring. That's where to start. It's not a church program. It's not making you stop going to church somewhere, to go to church over here. What you're actually doing is living church in your own neighborhood. Start doing that.Debra Rienstra Elaine, it's been such a pleasure to be here on the farm with you and to talk with you, get to know you a little bit. Thank you for what you do, and thank you for spending some time with me today.Elaine Heath It's been a joy. Thank you for the interview.Debra Rienstra Thanks for joining us for show notes and full transcripts, please visit debrarienstra.com and click on the Refugia Podcast tab. This season of the Refugia Podcast is produced with generous funding from the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. Colin Hoogerwerf is our awesome audio producer. Thanks to Ron Rienstra for content consultation as well as technical and travel support. Till next time, be well. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

1. Tohu va'vohu (formless and void): Chaos, unshaped potential. To me, I see this as the raw material of existence, but also the state of the soul apart from יהוה.

1. Tohu va'vohu (formless and void): Chaos, unshaped potential. To me, I see this as the raw material of existence, but also the state of the soul apart from יהוה.

Join Rabbi Joey Rosenfeld as he guides us through the world and major works of Kabbalah, Hasidic masters, and Jewish philosophy, shedding light on the inner life of the soul. To learn more, visit InwardTorah.org

Seguramente recuerdan la canción «El Apagón» interpretada por Yuri, pero en realidad se hizo famosa en los años 40 con Toña la Negra. Hoy les platico la historia de esa canción y sus peculiares mensajes alusivos a la guerra. Celebramos un año más de los Tratados de Córdoba y, claro, no pueden faltar en nuestra mesa los chiles en nogada. ¿Y saben quién le puso Tohuí al osito panda del Zoológico de Chapultepec?

ILLUSTRATION: You know what is one of the most terrifying questions as a dad? It's when I go to the pharmacy to pick up medication for one of my kids and they say, “What's their birthday” lol, I can tell you the day they were born on, but the year they were born? I still have to ask everytime. I get all nervous pulling up to the window. Can we all admit that there is something really special about moms? Whether you have a mom, are a mom, or just know a mom, there is something special about them. This morning, I just want to speak to the ladies in the crowd and encourage all of us when it comes to the responsibility God has put in our hands… SCIPTURE: In the Old Testament there is a story that I thought would be appropriate for today: There was a man named Elkanhah who had two wives - I know, I have no idea how he did it.. He had two wives, Peninnah and Hannah. Every year Elkanhah and his family would go up to Shiloh to worship God, this is before Israel had a temple and they would worship God in a tent called the Tabernacle. When Elkanah would go up to worship God he would sacrifice an animal and give a portion to Peninnah for her and his children with her but he would give his other wife Hannah a double portion because he loved her and she was unable to have kids… Every year this would happen but a rivalry between the women happened. Can you imagine your husband having another wife - imagine the jealousy and the rivalry that would come up. You think comparison is bad with today's social media, imagine living next door to that person… Listen to what happened to Hannah 1 Samuel 1:6-8 6 Because the Lord had closed Hannah's womb, her rival kept provoking her in order to irritate her. 7 This went on year after year. Whenever Hannah went up to the house of the Lord, her rival provoked her till she wept and would not eat. 8 Her husband Elkanah would say to her, “Hannah, why are you weeping? Why don't you eat? Why are you downhearted? Don't I mean more to you than ten sons?” Can I just speak for a moment to those of you who on this mother's day are feeling excluded? I want you to know that God sees you and you are not alone. I know for some Mother's day is a reminder of loss. The loss of a mother, the loss of becoming a mother or never able to become a mother. Hannah knew what that was like, she was a woman who couldn't have children and had to share a husband with a woman who could and made her feel less than.. and her husband didn't get it… If that's you today, can I remind you of Psalm 34:18 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. God is close to those who are brokenhearted. Jesus said those who mourn are blessed because they will be comforted. If mother's day is difficult for you, I'd encourage you to run to God and let Him draw you near. Listen to Hannah's desperate prayer to God… 1 Samuel 1:9-11 9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord's house. 10 In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. 11 And she made a vow, saying, “Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant's misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head.” this is the prayer of the desperate… We've all prayed this prayer… The priest Eli actually thinks she's drunk because he doesn't know what's going on and she just keeps mouthing the prayer. when Hannah goes home God answers her prayer and gives her a son that they name Samuel, and this is the part I want to hone in on and challenge us all with. listen: 1 Samuel 1:21-22 24 After he was weaned, she took the boy with her, young as he was, along with a three-year-old bull,[e] an ephah[f]of flour and a skin of wine, and brought him to the house of the Lord at Shiloh. 25 When the bull had been sacrificed, they brought the boy to Eli, 26 and she said to him, “Pardon me, my lord. As surely as you live, I am the woman who stood here beside you praying to the Lord. 27 I prayed for this child, and the Lord has granted me what I asked of him. 28 So now I give him to the Lord. For his whole life he will be given over to the Lord.” And he worshiped the Lord there. Here's what strikes me about Hannah The thing she wanted most was the very thing she gave back to God. b As parents, it's tempting to believe our children are ours, but Hannah knew better. b Our children are gifts from God and it's our job to give them back to Him. b For most of us this means leading them to know Him, to disciple them, to talk to them about Jesus as a normal part of life. CLOSING ILLUSTRATION: The reality is, Jenni is the one who knows things about our kids that no one else knows. She remembers all the sweet things they did when they were little and she has been watching over them all their life. But so have I. As your kids get older one of the hardest lessons to learn is they are not yours really. You are just a steward of them. The question I think God will ask us about one day is what we did with what He gave us. Did we teach them to love others like He does? did we teach them to love God? Or did we just make sure they were good at sports, or didn't annoy us too much? This sermon isn't meant to make you feel guilty, but to remind us of the how much God has entrusted to you - He believes you are capable of raising your children to know Him, it starts with giving them back to Him and realizing He knows everything about your child. Hannah dedicated her son to the Lord and He changed the world, He will be the one who anoints King David and out of King David will come Jesus - all because a mom faithfully committed her son to God's service… ------------------ 1 Samuel 1:1-28 There was a certain man from Ramathaim, a Zuphite[a] from the hill country of Ephraim, whose name was Elkanah son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephraimite. 2 He had two wives; one was called Hannah and the other Peninnah. Peninnah had children, but Hannah had none. 3 Year after year this man went up from his town to worship and sacrifice to the Lord Almighty at Shiloh, where Hophni and Phinehas, the two sons of Eli, were priests of the Lord. 4 Whenever the day came for Elkanah to sacrifice, he would give portions of the meat to his wife Peninnah and to all her sons and daughters. 5 But to Hannah he gave a double portion because he loved her, and the Lord had closed her womb. 6 Because the Lord had closed Hannah's womb, her rival kept provoking her in order to irritate her. 7 This went on year after year. Whenever Hannah went up to the house of the Lord, her rival provoked her till she wept and would not eat. 8 Her husband Elkanah would say to her, “Hannah, why are you weeping? Why don't you eat? Why are you downhearted? Don't I mean more to you than ten sons?” 9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord's house. 10 In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. 11 And she made a vow, saying, “Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant's misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head.” 12 As she kept on praying to the Lord, Eli observed her mouth. 13 Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk 14 and said to her, “How long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine.” 15 “Not so, my lord,” Hannah replied, “I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer; I was pouring out my soul to the Lord. 16 Do not take your servant for a wicked woman; I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief.” 17 Eli answered, “Go in peace, and may the God of Israel grant you what you have asked of him.” 18 She said, “May your servant find favor in your eyes.” Then she went her way and ate something, and her face was no longer downcast. 19 Early the next morning they arose and worshiped before the Lord and then went back to their home at Ramah. Elkanah made love to his wife Hannah, and the Lord remembered her. 20 So in the course of time Hannah became pregnant and gave birth to a son. She named him Samuel,[b] saying, “Because I asked the Lord for him.” Hannah Dedicates Samuel 21 When her husband Elkanah went up with all his family to offer the annual sacrifice to the Lord and to fulfill his vow, 22 Hannah did not go. She said to her husband, “After the boy is weaned, I will take him and present him before the Lord, and he will live there always.”[c] 23 “Do what seems best to you,” her husband Elkanah told her. “Stay here until you have weaned him; only may the Lord make good his[d] word.” So the woman stayed at home and nursed her son until she had weaned him. 24 After he was weaned, she took the boy with her, young as he was, along with a three-year-old bull,[e] an ephah[f] of flour and a skin of wine, and brought him to the house of the Lord at Shiloh. 25 When the bull had been sacrificed, they brought the boy to Eli, 26 and she said to him, “Pardon me, my lord. As surely as you live, I am the woman who stood here beside you praying to the Lord. 27 I prayed for this child, and the Lord has granted me what I asked of him. 28 So now I give him to the Lord. For his whole life he will be given over to the Lord.” And he worshiped the Lord there. Hannah prayed for children and God finally gave her Samuel. What's wild is she gives him back to God. The very thing she longed for, she gave to God. The reality is none of our children are ours, we all have the unreal expectation that we can control the outcomes of their lives, but that's not true. What we can control is giving them to God - committing them to Him through: Prayer Intention - raising your kids to know God as a friend Personal commitment

In this series we will be exploring some of the great texts that deal with the very, very essential tension and dance between lights - vigor, intensity, creativity, vigor - and vessels - capacity, skill, tools, resources. Light without vessels is inaccessible and destructive. Vessels without light are stultifying and dull. In this first installment, Rav Kook's essay describes the great dreamers who came to Israel in the early 20th century with their big lights... and insufficient vessels with which to hold those lights.