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Welcome to this podcast where we're talking about mental health awareness. According to the latest figures, one in four people in the UK will experience mental health problems each year. However, despite this, mental health is often seen as a taboo subject. In this podcast we're joined by Michael Boaden of MIND, a leading UK mental health charity, and Dr Adrian Simper, Strategy and Technology Director at the NDA and the executive sponsor for mental health and wellbeing across the NDA group. A full transcript of the episode follows: CLARE FULLER Welcome to this podcast where today we're talking about mental health awareness. According to the latest figures, one in four people in the UK will experience mental health problems each year. However, despite this, mental health is often seen as a taboo subject. In this podcast we're joined by Michael Boarden of MIND, a leading UK mental health charity, and Dr Adrian Simper, Strategy and Technology Director at the NDA and the executive sponsor for mental health and wellbeing across the NDA group.   Thank you both for being here. So, I'd like to start with the first question and perhaps throw it to you, Michael, first. What do we really mean when use the term mental health and what is it you think influences our mental health?     MICHAEL BOADEN I think the first and most important thing to say, Clare, is that in the context of mental health, I would always put it alongside and as part of our overall health. So, we don't necessarily need to make distinctions between our physical and our mental health.   We need to look at the whole person in terms of the things that affect them. And in the context of mental health, in particular, the main influences will be around, to some degree, how people deal with the ups and downs of life, change. And ultimately, I suppose, it's about coping strategies and the way that people operate out there in the world. We sometimes measure poor mental health in terms of how people deal with those kinds of things.   But it's extremely important that we don't, sort of, ghettoise it, in terms of health, and we look at mental health as part of the overall person in front of us.     CLARE FULLER Thanks Michael. Some really interesting thoughts there. Adrian, what's your take on this?     ADRIAN SIMPER I think it's quite difficult to separate your mental health from yourself. In some ways that's easier with physical health, we can talk about how our bodies are and how we are. I guess when we ask the question, how are you, we're really asking about people's mental health, not about their physical health.   We're saying how are you as a whole person. And mental health is the extent to which you feel okay, as a whole person. And there is, as Michael says, that tie in between your physical health and your mental health, because we all know how your body is performing can affect how your mental health is. But it's the whole us, isn’t it, I think that's why it's hard to talk about it, because to talk about it you have to separate somehow your mental health from yourself. And that's a strange thing to do.     CLARE FULLER Michael, I just wanted to put something to you, generally speaking are we all on some sort of mental health scale, is it safe to say that we all have to deal with something in some form or another?     MICHAEL BOADEN Absolutely and I think it's important always to recognise that people's mental health will fluctuate and change. And people are on, what we would call a continuum, so that could involve poor mental health at one end and good mental wellbeing and health at the other end.   And people tend to move along that continuum, depending on what's happening in their lives and how they're dealing with things. And I think it's really important, and as we talk about mental health in the workplace, it's really important to recognise that if we're seeing change, that might be people shifting and moving on that continuum. So, we've got an opportunity as colleagues, friends, to actually talk to people and ask people how they're doing and actually get into conversations around where people are at in terms of their wellbeing.   And the other aspect to say is that I think it's also important to recognise that in the context of a lot of mental health conditions there will be physical elements, we hear a lot about chemical imbalances and things like that. And it's a really important factor to say that sometimes for some people medication can be a very positive solution to a mental health issue, because actually it will bring the balance back into play.   So, it's always important, again, to people to get advice and support from GPs potentially, so they can have a physical health check as well as, you know, talk to somebody about what's going on for them.     CLARE FULLER We're all hearing more about mental health at work, so Michael, first of all, why do you think it's important to talk about mental health in the workplace in particular?     MICHAEL BOADEN The starting point, I think, in terms of needing to lift the profile of mental health in the workplace is the stigma that surrounds mental health generally. If we can get conversations going in the workplace around these issues, then a lot of people who are struggling or possibly feeling very isolated with the problems they've got, may feel that they have an opportunity to open up to colleagues, to line managers, to other bits of the organisation.   So, workplaces, employers, need to be encouraging, I guess, a culture of openness around these issues, a culture of talking and above all listening to each other. And that has the potential to bring about a massive shift in my view. You quoted the figures at the beginning of this podcast, Clare, in terms of the numbers of people affected, and that means that are a lot of people going through a lot of difficulties in work.   But because mental health can often be hidden away, mental issues can, mental health issues can be, sort of, hard to identify when you look at someone. Sometimes we miss them. And sometimes people feel they can't talk about them, because there's going to be a question as to whether they're being genuine or not. So, it's a bit different from a broken leg or another health complaint of a physical nature, even a cancer diagnosis, it's different. And I think the way we look at it is different.   But I'm encouraged that a lot of organisations now, including your own, are changing and developing their practice in this area and wanting to make some big changes.     CLARE FULLER And, Adrian, let me ask you the same sort of question then, what is your view on mental health awareness in the workplace?     ADRIAN SIMPER Well, I think, as Michael said, we spend a lot of time at work and changes in working practices means it's actually much harder these days for people to make a separation from their work life and other parts of their life.   And I think the other thing is also increasingly what people contribute at work is largely the product of their minds and their brains, than it is the product of their bodies and their physicality. And so effectiveness at work is, we all want people to be fulfilled, but as an employer there's a bit about effectiveness of people at work, it's therefore much more related to their mental health, in some ways, than their physical health.   And we take a lot of trouble over people's physical health at work, both in terms of slips and trips and falls, those minor threats in the workplace, through to trauma events and how we look after people when they break their leg. Or when they have some life changing accidents, all the way through to underlying health conditions and the way in which we support people, for example who may have diabetes, pick a condition at random.   We do much less from a mental health position. So, in the workplace it's about thinking about what is the equivalent of the slips, trips and falls, what is the equivalent of the things that we do and the way we interact with each other as people that can have a negative impact, an unintended, I would hope, but nonetheless a negative impact upon other people. As an organisation how good are we at recognising trauma events in people's lives that affect their mental health.   How easy is it for someone to say, actually I'm really struggling with my anxiety today and I need to be at home, it's not easy to say. I'd hope the response would be similar, but the stigma means that we're not having those sorts of conversations. And actually what that boils down to is we're not caring for people properly, because if we were caring for people properly, that is a conversation people would feel able to have.     MICHAEL BOADEN And can I just say also, Clare, that I think Adrian makes some fantastic points there and also I've heard him speak very eloquently around what people who've been through mental health issues contribute. It's really important that we don't end up in a negative conversation, because actually one of the things that everybody brings to work is their life experience, as well as their designated skills and expertise in particular areas.   And people who've come out the other side from mental health issues are incredible contributors, and part of that contribution can often be because of what they've actually gone through and the way they've dealt with things and come out the other side resilient strong people who can contribute masses and masses to an organisation. And we lose far too many people in the workforce every year because of mental health issues.     ADRIAN SIMPER So, thank you, Michael, for saying that. And I think when we, the more we learn about people's personalities, the more we understand the correlations between different ways of thinking and different styles of thinking.   And when you look at creativity and different ways of looking at the world, which is so valuable in the workplace, that is often correlated with different ways, non-normal ways, of thinking, which can at the same time make it hard to be in the workplace. And that's why inclusivity and diversity is such an important part of this debate.   This isn't a mechanism by which we can identify people who are weaker and somehow support them. And, as Michael says, it's really important we don’t go there, this is about realising that different people contribute in different ways, because of their skills. And we know that creativity in the workplace is one of those things that we do lack a little bit and we need to recognise that when, that creativity is often associated with other unusual ways of thinking and we need to accommodate that, welcome that, rejoice and exalt in that.     CLARE FULLER Thank you both. That leads me quite nicely to my next question then, which, Adrian, I'm going to throw to your first. We have heard that the workplace can have a significant impact on employees' mental health, but what do you think makes a healthy workplace and what are we doing to raise awareness and tackle some of those issues?     ADRIAN SIMPER I think in the first place what makes a healthy workplace is a place where you can talk about these issues openly, in the same way as you can talk about physical health issues reasonably openly.   And where it is seen that mental health variations or variations in your mental health is a part of being alive, you know, it's a recognition that the way people are is as a result of the one thing we can't change about them, which is that they are human and people are people. And so that openness in the workplace.   I think the other thing is about providing training for line managers, for example, to recognise when people may be struggling at different times in their life and ensuring that the employer makes available a range of different support mechanisms. Whether that simply ranges from a recognition that it's okay through to talk through to more structured arrangements, like the Employee Assistance Programme, and then into professional services.   And so that spectrum of response is, for me, what any responsible employer seeking to get the best out of their employees will be looking to do.     CLARE FULLER Michael, a similar, sort of, thing for you. Have you personally seen good examples of where organisations are raising awareness and are workplaces getting better at tackling issues?     MICHAEL BOADEN I think some workplaces definitely are, I think the kinds of examples that I've seen over the last two to three years, I think in many respects some of this has really taken off. The Thriving at Work Report was a definite, kind of, benchmark moment in respect of the cost, both human and economic, in relation to mental health. And so we've got a lot of employers now coming forward, recognising that there are issues and thinking about the ways that they need to, I suppose, change and develop their practice.   And I think all the, sort of, suites of things that Adrian's just identified are really important. Fundamentally I would add a couple of other things that I've seen good examples of; one is buy-in at senior levels. Adrian exemplifies that within the NDA organisations, and so do others in other places. But it makes a massive difference to have that commitment and in a sense that willingness at the top of an organisation to say this is absolutely crucial and important.   Not only in terms of our, sort of, goals as an organisation, but also in terms of our responsibility to the people that we employ. And the second thing is, I think that once you've got your people trained, it's then about how you get the messages out there, how you publicise that and how you make those people accessible and approachable.   I've had lots of experience over the years of companies who've had serious incidents, potentially lost an individual to suicide, who've then looked at a reactive response and have regretted in many ways that they've not had things in place beforehand. So, we're beginning to change that and that is massively important.     CLARE FULLER Thanks both. It looks like there's a lot going on obviously, but I suppose, as with everything, there's no doubt that there's always room for improvement and there's more that we can do.   So, I'm going to move us on to our next topic, mental first aid. And a question for you both, what exactly is mental first aid? Michael, would you like to go first?     MICHAEL BOADEN Okay. Well, mental health first aid is the basis of equipping people to do just what it says on the tin, to provide first aid to people who might be struggling with mental health issues.   People who are trained as mental health first aiders are not counsellors, therapists, advisors, psychologists or anything else that you'd like to name. What they are, are people who are prepared to listen, not to judge and to seek to help an individual by signposting, providing support there and then in the form of a listening ear, but also helping that person potentially in the workplace to negotiate their way through the workplace structures and the support that's available there.   So, I think it's a role that has a real importance for lots and lots of organisations now, because it can be a focal point for individuals who are struggling, but also it sends out the message that we're taking these issues seriously, that mental health first aid has a priority in the exactly same way as the traditional physical first aid.   And I think, having been involved in mental first aid delivery for a few years now, the thing that I love about it is that it's accessible, anybody, literally anybody, can pick up those skills, can pick up a few techniques and approaches. And providing they're willing to engage with individuals at a human level, they can utilise those techniques and approaches in a way that will undoubtedly have a positive effect on their colleagues.     CLARE FULLER Now, Adrian, I know that mental health first aid is a topic close to your heart, how have you been involved in it?     ADRIAN SIMPER Gosh, how have I been involved in it, well I've taken part in the training and so I am a mental health first aider and I will continue to support organisations as part of the NDA family. In making sure that one of the things they do, as part of responding to our aspirations in mental health and wellbeing, is to put in place mental health programmes.   But the benefit of the training is it gives you a few tools and techniques it allows you to be more, for the sake of a couple of days, be ready to provide that support in the workplace when it's needed. I think one of the differences, however, with mental health and physical first aid is that with physical events there is a very clear cascade into a well established healthcare system.   So, sometimes it stops with providing someone with a plaster, and that's all that's needed. But actually if it's a major trauma event, then the guys in the green jumpsuits and the flashing lights do turn up and there's a handover there. Mental health provision within the health services is nowhere near as developed and nowhere near as responsive.   The mental first aiders are not, as Michael said, they're not professionals, and it's important that they don’t try and usurp the place of the professionals, the handover to the professionals is less, less identified. And so part of, an important part of the training is in fact knowing what the limits of a first aider are and how to hand it off to people whose job it is to help people with whatever comes next in their lives.     CLARE FULLER And of course from a business perspective as well, Adrian, I'm picking up on a point that Michael raised about having that full package from an organisation's point view. How, what are your thoughts on that, so we have obviously first aiders in the workplace, but what are organisations doing to really support that fully?     ADRIAN SIMPER I think, as I said earlier, it's about having a full spectrum of support mechanisms in place that accommodate people being fully productive in the workplace. And that is in the same way as we make reasonable adjustments for people's physical impairments; we need to make reasonable adjustments for people's differences in thinking styles. And in the same way as not everything goes well from a body point of view, because you fall over or what have you, we put in place a range of support mechanisms there, why wouldn’t we do the same when it comes to people's mental health.     CLARE FULLER You're obviously very knowledgeable about mental health awareness, but just how important is it for all of us to talk about it openly?     MICHAEL BOADEN I think it's the most important thing of all, really. I mean, one of the things that we always say when we're delivering training is some of the things we're talking about can just as easily be used with family members, friends, and sometimes on ourselves. Some of the techniques could apply very clearly in terms of our day-to-day lives quite, you know, separate from the workplace.   The key thing is that people feel able to open up and whatever that is, it needs to be in a way that potentially provides an opportunity for an individual to say some supportive things or, more importantly, listen. Because actually it's statistically shown that people with mental health issues, the key thing for a lot of people, is to find someone who'll listen to them and allow them to speak.   And allow them to talk about the way they feel. And I think that in itself is a massive skill. But it's sometimes very difficult for people to open up, particularly maybe in family situations where, you know, family members need to put a brave face on because of everything else that's going on. But also in work situations where people in positions of responsibility don't necessarily want to show their underbelly, in terms of these kinds of issues.   But it needs to change, we need to find ways of opening up and talking, because as I've said before, we lose too many people in the context of the workforce, about 300,000 people disappear from the workforce every year because of mental health issues. And we also lose far too many people in terms of suicide, 6,000 every year across our country take their own lives.   All suicides are preventable in my view and I think it's really important that we recognise that sometimes it's for the sake of talking and listening that people get into massive distress. So, I think anything that we can do to foster and develop an environment where people talk, whether that's at work or at home or the pubs or at the football match, wherever it is, is really important.     CLARE FULLER That leads me to my next question then, Michael, how do you think we can take better care of our own mental health and what would you recommend to someone if they are worried about their own mental health or someone else's?     MICHAEL BOADEN Everybody has different ways of coping with the ups and downs of life but I think it's really important to find the positive coping strategies that help you as an individual. And far be it for me to say what they might be because there are as many things that people do to support themselves as they are things you can think of.   But the important thing is to look for those ways of dealing with things that actually begin to change the frame of reference sometimes. Sometimes it's talking, sometimes it's not talking, sometimes it's walking and exercise, sometimes it's staying at home and watching some trashy telly. You need to find the thing that you alight upon that that works for you, and there'd be different things that people use at different times   The, kind of, I suppose the key issues around all of these coping strategies are to look for what works. But it's also important if you're on the receiving end or if you feel that you're struggling, that you seek that help and support. And I would always say it's maybe about talking to somebody, it may be about getting professional advice by going to see a doctor or somebody else.   It may be, believe it or not, about going on the internet and looking for lots of fantastic websites and apps and things like that, that can help people, if you don't feel that you can engage at some other level. But there are services out there, there is support out there, it's sometimes a question of making that first step to recognise that something is going on that needs a response.   And this is why, going all the way around, it's so important that we have our first aiders and others, in workplaces, who are vigilant because that allows for pro-activity in the sense of somebody spots somebody is not doing so well or there's a bit of change going on or something is different, and you can ask that question, how are you doing. But as we've seen from a very recent campaign, sometimes you have to ask the question more than once, sometimes you have to go back and say, because a lot of us say, in response to how you're doing, oh, I'm fine, even if we're not.   So sometimes you need to ask twice, but I think there are often opportunities in the workplace, perhaps, to do that. And be prepared to deal with the answer, to listen and give some time and some space because that could be the first step to somebody beginning to make a massive change in their lives. And not only does it help that person, but actually it's good for us too, holding their hand is a really good thing for us to do, as individuals, it's a fantastic thing, because it makes a difference to our own health and wellbeing.     CLARE FULLER Adrian, what are thoughts on this?     ADRIAN SIMPER I think, on a day-to-day basis the most important thing is finding what works for your mental health, talking to people is really important and in the workplace, coming back to the workplace, it's having the confidence just to have those conversations that opens up a little bit and says, you know, actually no, today is not a good day or I'm feeling a bit anxious about that or, I'm really down today.   And for the people who are receiving those conversations, is, the person you're talking to isn't expecting you to magically solve all of their problems. That there is no expectation in that conversation that suddenly all of their problems are going to be offloaded on to you. Because people retain their rationality and so they understand what they're going through, they understand the conversations that they're having.   And they understand what's a reasonable expectation of the organisation and the people they're talking to, that sometimes it's just good to talk.     CLARE FULLER Some really key messages there, thank you both for that. So, we're nearing the end of our podcast but I've just got one final question to put to you both. If you could both offer one piece of advice to listeners, what would it be? Michael?     MICHAEL BOADEN I think the most important thing about listening is, listening well. And what I mean by that, because it sounds very trite, what I mean by that is, in a sense listening without any kind of prejudgement, allowing the person to be the person that they are and to say the things in the way that they want to say them. And not immediately jump, as we often tend to, to think, well, this is how we can solve this.   Because by the time you've had that set of thoughts, potentially you've missed something important that's being said. So, it's really a skill, it's really difficult, it almost needs a lot of practice, but it's really around trying to get into that, sort of, zone which says, I'm just going to absorb all this information without thinking that I need to provide anything at this point.   Because it may be that that person is relaying that information to somebody else for the very first time and all that they need at that moment is someone just to absorb it all and not to show any emotional response or not to show any judgement, but just to take it. And it's amazing how difficult that is, Clare, actually, for all of us, and I've been a mental health first aider for a long time and I can still feel myself going in conversations. And my wife will tell you that I'm the worst listener in the world on occasions, because I want to jump in and fix.   So, there's a bit of a, healer heal thyself, about that, but it's really important to do that because it could make a massive difference to someone just feeling that they're being heard, and properly heard     CLARE FULLER Yes, thank you. Adrian?     ADRIAN SIMPER I would say, take 10 minutes, just think about what it is that makes you feel better, and then just remember that. So, when you're having a bad day, remember what makes you feel better and do that thing, whatever that thing is for you.     CLARE FULLER We've heard a lot of great things today and it certainly sounds like there's a lot of things happening to create a really strong focus on mental health and wellbeing. We're on a journey, obviously, to improve mental health in our workplace, raising awareness through these discussions can only be positive for understanding the best way to focus on wellbeing.   I'd like to say a huge thank you to both of my guests today for sharing their knowledge and insight and for their openness throughout. Thank you, Michael Boarden from MIND and Doctor Adrian Simper from the NDA. If, what you've heard today, has made you want to find out more, then there are lots of resources available via your businesses intranet, including details of the Employee Assistance Programme. Thank you all for listening.  

More than 200 colleagues from across the NDA group gathered to hear more about the group-wide safety vision, to reflect on the results of a recent safety survey and to start to work together to develop ways in which we can all improve.