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John and Cobie sit down with Dr. Mariah Morgan to discuss the 4-H Robotics Program. From creating robots to performing amazing feats, Dr. Morgan will explain the many activities that encompass this program. Transcript: Announcer: This is 4-H-4-U-2, a podcast from the Mississippi State University Extension Service promoting 4-H programs and positive youth development. Here now your host, Dr. John Long and Cobie Rutherford. John Long: All right and welcome to 4-H-4-U-2. I am John Long. Cobie Rutherford: And I'm Cobie Rutherford. John Long: And we want to welcome everybody back to the podcast, if you're out there. We hope somebody is listening to us anyway. I hope so. We're kind of getting a little bit, I guess, getting quite a few episodes under our belt, Cobie, and I guess things are getting a little smoother. What do you think? Cobie Rutherford: Yeah, I think we are. I think we're getting better at this, every podcast we go through, and maybe we'll be famous one day. John Long: I'm already famous. We'll work on you. Cobie Rutherford: That's right. John Long: Yeah, so, but anyway. Cobie Rutherford: Well. John Long: Well, we are so happy to have Dr. Mariah Morgan with us. Mariah, how are you today? Dr. Morgan: I am doing great, John. Thank you so much for having me. John Long: Great. I have known Mariah for a long time. We won't say how long, but I've known her for quite some time. Even before, well, we were both in our roles I think. Correct? Dr. Morgan: Yes. John Long: I think that's true. So Mariah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from and what's your favorite flavor of ice cream? Dr. Morgan: Okay. So I am from the metropolitan city of Artesia, Mississippi. John Long: Awesome. Dr. Morgan: Big town, big city, big happenings. John Long: It's still happening. Dr. Morgan: Yes, it is. Very much so. But it is unique in that it has informed a lot of my decisions and a lot of my outlook, particularly as it relates to 4-H. I've even had some fun going back and doing some training with the local after school club that's there. John Long: Oh that's good. Yeah. Dr. Morgan: So that was a lot of fun to go back and see that. But, I grew up in Artesia and then I actually pursued a degree in philosophy and foreign languages. John Long: Wonderful. Dr. Morgan: But ended up with 4-H and 4-H robotics working for the Extension Center for Technology Outreach here at MSU. So that's been a lot of fun and we've had some good time with that. Favorite flavor of ice cream, got to be cookies and cream. John Long: Oh, that's mine too. What's yours, Cobie? Cobie Rutherford: You know, I think any ice cream, but I guess if I had to pick a favorite, it would be from this little place in Clanton. They have cantaloupe ice cream. John Long: Really. Cobie Rutherford: It's fantastic. John Long: I have never had that before. Have to try that. What's the name of it? We'll do a shameless plug for them. Cobie Rutherford: Peach Park. John Long: Oh, okay, cool. Well, if it's MSU ice cream, which we highly suggest you try, it would be muscadine ripple for me. Cobie Rutherford: No doubt. John Long: Yeah, that's a good one. Just saying, since you're from Artesia, have you ever taken that road from Artesia back to the airport? You ever gone those back roads? Dr. Morgan: I sure have. Mm-hmm (affirmative). John Long: Yeah. That's kind of a little secret. I couldn't believe how quick I got there one day. I don't think I could do it again. But anyway, I guess that road's still open. Dr. Morgan: It is. John Long: Okay, good, good. Dr. Morgan: I know lots of secrets about Artesia. John Long: Oh. That's an whole nother podcast right there. Dr. Morgan: It is. It is. John Long: That would probably be an entirely different podcast- Dr. Morgan: Exactly. It would. Yes. John Long: Okay. Well, good, good deal. Well Mariah, you are over, or I don't want to say, I'm not going to put words in your mouth. Dr. Morgan: Okay. John Long: What exactly is 4-H Robotics, and just kind of introduce this to that and kind of tell us number one, what is it and really how did it get started? Dr. Morgan: Sure. So 4-H Robotics got started, gosh, it's probably been nine years now, maybe even a little bit longer, but it really grew out of a need that we saw for our 4-H youth to have a different experience than what we were currently offering in say in the computer project. And so we looked to see what was available and we realized that there were some things happening in the area of robotics and we really wanted to be a part of that. And so we began in Newton County with a group of youth that were there for a CYFAR, children and youth of family at risk program. And we were in a community church there in the summer and we had all these robots and all these children and it just went really well and they really got excited about robotics and what that might mean for their future. Dr. Morgan: And so from there, the program has just really grown. And so we have added different things as our knowledge of robotics and youth and how those two things go together. We've really started focusing on our younger youth because we know that most of our 4-H youth, and just youth in general, are going to decide quite early on whether or not they're even interested in STEM careers. We know some research suggests that girls decide by kindergarten whether or not they want to go into STEM, and we know that usually for our boys, it's around first or second grade when they decide whether or not they're going to pursue STEM. John Long: I wonder why that is? Dr. Morgan: A lot of it's what they're exposed to, what they've seen, different things like that. And so what we're really focusing on now is providing more opportunities for our young Clover Bud, that's our five to seven year old range in 4-H, to get excited and to get into STEM. And so rather sneakily, I might say, we have launched the 4-H Lego Club curriculum. John Long: Yes, yes. Dr. Morgan: And so we really are pretending like we're just playing with Legos, but at the same time we're teaching those engineering concepts and we're teaching those careers that you might could do if you pursue STEM, but we're really just having fun with Legos. We don't tell them that they're learning all of those extra things, it's just it's kind of part of that process we're doing, learning through playing, which is very important for young children. And so just getting them open and ready to do the next thing. John Long: Legos, the thing that you step on with your bare feet. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. John Long: Yes. That's what I call them. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. John Long: They're horrible. Have you had that yet, Cobie? Cobie Rutherford: We have not gotten to the Lego stage yet, but it's coming fast. John Long: Prepare yourselves is all I can say. Cobie Rutherford: I am. John Long: It's pretty bad. Dr. Morgan: We have about 50,000 Legos right now in the state of Mississippi with all the youth doing the Lego Clubs. John Long: 50,000. Dr. Morgan: So you think you've got problems at your house. You ought to be in my office. Cobie Rutherford: In office. John Long: You ought to be in mine is all I can say. Cobie Rutherford: Oh my gosh. John Long: You were going to say ... what were you going to say? Cobie Rutherford: That sounds pretty cool. I mean, it seems like with this new robotics program we are actually able to reach a new set of children and get them involved in 4-H through a non-traditional type program. I think that's really neat and something that we really need in this state. Dr. Morgan: One of the exciting things that I have seen is that we do attract youth who might not generally be interested in what most people consider typical 4-H programs. John Long: Quote unquote. Dr. Morgan: Quote unquote, right. But what's been so fun is to see them come in and maybe they don't like to talk to other people or in front of other people, or they maybe just have a difficult time relating to others. What's been so great for me to see, because again, not trying to age myself, but I've seen some of these 4-H'ers for awhile. They might have started- John Long: Do they have kids now? Dr. Morgan: They might have started when they were, you know, eight or nine and they may be in college now. John Long: Okay. Okay. Dr. Morgan: What's been so fun is yes, they kind of came in because they were interested in Legos or they were interested in robotics and along the way they found a love for public speaking or they found a love for community health or something like that. And so it's been really fun to see that growth. I actually had a group this past year that was just in absolute almost tears because they came to tell me that they were going to do the dairy judging contest this year and they did not want me to be upset with them. And I said, "It's really okay. We want you to get involved in other projects." Dr. Morgan: That's one of the great things about 4-H is that you can explore all these different opportunities and all these different careers in this one environment so that you have that experience before you get out of even elementary school, really. And so I said, "You go have fun with the dairy contest because one, you get to eat ice cream so-" John Long: That's ice cream again. Dr. Morgan: Exactly, exactly. But at the same time I know that most of our dairy farms are going to robotics to use for milking the cows and so much of our farming and our agriculture is robotics related, so I know at the end of the day they're still going to have to come back and see me for that robotics. John Long: Eventually. That works for the inclusiveness, not the exclusiveness that 4-H stands for so I think that's wonderful. Now, it seems like that technology, I don't know, some people say there's nothing new under the sun, but it sure seems like technology is just so quickly advancing that, I mean these, even if you look in homes, they have these personal assistants and things like that, which probably just a short time ago seemed like the biggest ... it was George Jetson type technology, right? I mean, it was just improbable and now it's becoming more, probably, or it is occurring and we have to be prepared for that and I think that's great that we have something that's actually getting youth at least exposed to it for sure. Dr. Morgan: Sure. And that's what we don't want, or I guess, let me say this, we want to use programs like the 4-H Robotics Program and things like that to help teach youth how to approach those challenges because the technology is changing so quickly. And so we can't just bring them in and say, "Oh, you've only got to be able to code or to program in this one specific language." That's not what we're trying to teach. We're trying to teach the how do you address the problem and how do you work through that problem, because whether you're coding, whether you're just trying to solve what to wear in the morning, life is always going to have a challenge and life is always going to have a problem that has to be solved. That might be homework that might be course work, whatever, but the big thing is how do you solve that challenge and persist in the face of a difficulty? Dr. Morgan: And that's what we want to do. We want to make sure we move past that to get to a resolution. And so really it's not so much about a particular program or a particular robot, it's about persisting. John Long: And a lot of times just like in any, like we've said before, Cobie, it's like with any 4-H activity or program we have, is that we're teaching life skills and we're using that particular area of interest, like you said Mariah, that piques that young person's interest and gets them into the program where we can teach them. So it's kind of a dual, a double edge sword, in a kind way, not in a bad way. Dr. Morgan: But, yes. Cobie Rutherford: And it is almost a domino effect too with the youth and they come into their extension offices and get involved with other projects like Mariah said, and then they bring their parents in to start utilizing extension as a resource. I think that's the coolest part about this whole project. John Long: I do too. I like it. I love it. Oh, I got to say this. A lot of you all probably don't know this, but the 4-H office adjoins a classroom and we walk across it to get to another hallway. I was walking through there one day and most of the time we have a sign that says there's a video conference going on because we've got some equipment in there, and so it was not ... I guess the sign was turned around, but I opened the door, Cobie, and there is Mariah sitting behind the desk with a green wig on and I did not know what in the world I had just stepped into it and she was just talking away. So Mariah, what was that I got exposed to rather abruptly? Dr. Morgan: Are you sure you want to know, John? John Long: Ah, well, I'm asking so I guess so. Dr. Morgan: Well, every- John Long: Maybe I don't want to know, but- Dr. Morgan: Every year we have a 4-H robotics kick off. It's usually in late January, early February, kind of depending on when Dixie National is because we don't want to, you know, we don't want to mess with that. John Long: No, no that's fine. Dr. Morgan: We have a big kickoff every year. And so typically beforehand we'll have counties register and we'll send out little kits for them to do and we'll all get online via interactive video, all the counties that join up, and we'll do that robotics activity together. I think that year that you came in, it was probably- John Long: See, you even remember it. Dr. Morgan: Well, I only have one green wig, so- John Long: And a feather boa. Dr. Morgan: Yeah, well, you know- John Long: If you're going to do it, do it right. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. Exactly. Go big or go home and so I think we were doing some type of sensory robotic fish that year if I remember correctly. This past year, my memory is getting a little difficult, you know, not so great as we get older, but this past year it was honeybees. And so I had a lot of fun sending, we made robotic bees, and I had a lot of fun sending different types of honey to the kids, or to the youth rather, to try out. But I didn't tell him which honey was which, they just had to try it and figure it out. And I had one poor youth about pass out because he tried the buckwheat honey first- John Long: Oh, and the allergies. He had an allergy? Dr. Morgan: No, no. Buckwheat honey is just a unique flavor. Anything buckwheat is always going to be a unique flavor. But then he had a really great time trying to convince the other youth to try to buckwheat first and then they all about had a [inaudible 00:14:03] as well. So it was a lot of fun. John Long: That's awesome. That's awesome. Cobie Rutherford: That is funny. What about the contest that you just conducted at State Congress? You had a computer contest, a robotics contest. What were they about? Dr. Morgan: Sure. The computer contest is really where they're making an app using the MIT App Inventor, and so much of our technology is going to be phone driven or smart device driven in the coming years. And we just want to expose youth to that concept that they can make their own apps. And so really it builds on just the programming that they've been learning in our younger programs. So for example, our Clover Buds, they start out with Lego, and then they moved to ScratchJr, and then they moved to Scratch, and then they move to probably the EV3 programming or Python programming, and then they move into Python in the MIT App Inventor. And so that's what they were doing in the computer contest. Dr. Morgan: And then in the robotics contest, they had used the Hummingbird robot to create, again, our theme this year was bees, we're kind of working off some of the work that MIT is doing in several different bigger groups like that, and so they had to make a robotic bee using the Hummingbird platform and they had to program it in Python. And so what you saw was what they had created using that robotic kit and the programming language. And I thought they did a really excellent job. This is the first year we had used the Hummingbird and the Python. Python is one of the first programming languages they learn when they come to college, and so we wanted- John Long: That's what I was going to ask you. It's not a snake. Dr. Morgan: No, no, it's not a snake. It's an actual just a programming language. And I think they really liked that. I think they liked being able to use the Python to program in. Cobie Rutherford: That fascinates that a child in Mississippi has an opportunity to go through the 4-H Robotics Program, learn all these tools that one day could help them develop an app that could be used nation or worldwide. John Long: Yeah. You don't think of it from that standpoint. I mean from the beginning, like a little child doing that, but that's the way it gets started. For some it sure has for sure. Cobie Rutherford: And the coolest thing about it, is 4-H is free. John Long: That's right. That's exactly right. A lot of people ask me, they say, "Well, how much does it cost?" I'll get that at state fair a lot. "Well, how much does it cost to join?" Nothing. You just come, show up at your extension office, and say, "Hey, I'm interested in 4-H." So Mariah, I remember, and since we're talking on honeybees, I heard that they were using in like the hiving mechanism or whatever, for micro robots. Have you ever heard that? Dr. Morgan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). John Long: Yeah, that's pretty out there too isn't it? I wonder how advanced that is right now, have you ever looked into that? Dr. Morgan: It's pretty advanced. It's pretty advanced. John Long: Probably more than we need to know. They're spying on us. Cobie Rutherford: It just amazes me, like, I think Mariah mentioned the dairy industry earlier today and how there's some researchers in the Animal Science department that are collaborating with folks in Ag Engineering about keeping up with cow steps and cow temperature, milking with robots, it's just fascinating. John Long: It's crazy. I've got friends in Pennsylvania and their dairy parlor blew me away when I went in there. It was just so far, I probably hadn't been in a parlor in so long, and it was so more advanced than I had seen before. And it's all because of these advancements in technology. They just keep, you know, not taking over, but they are, to a sense, they're taking, not necessarily jobs, but they're making things more efficient for sure. That's really good. That's really good. Well, Mariah, what do you have coming up for 4-H'ers? Dr. Morgan: Well, sure. Well, of course we have project achievement days coming up where our junior 4-H youth will be participating with their robots on a- John Long: We're excited about that. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. And they have a bee theme as well. Everything is bee theme this year. And we typically try to have a theme that reflects something that's going on in the industry or something that might be of interest to the youth. John Long: Will there be buckwheat honey there? Dr. Morgan: There might be. John Long: I hope so, might be- Dr. Morgan: There might be. John Long: [inaudible 00:18:33]. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. John Long: I want to taste some. Dr. Morgan: Yes. Yeah. I have some down in the office you can try. John Long: Oh, good. Dr. Morgan: But it's not for the faint of heart, but yes, it is- John Long: I'll get my coffee [inaudible 00:18:41]. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. Yes. But one thing that's exciting and I think it's going to come up and I've been asked by many extension agents over the past week while they were here for Club Congress, when our next Lego Club curriculum was coming out, and that is underway. We have begun that process so hopefully we'll have that out sooner rather than later. We have our ScratchJr curriculum that's out, which really just walks 4-H youth through how to code, how to begin coding, and also what it means to be a 4-H'er, takes them through the four Hs of the clover. Dr. Morgan: And then we have a new curriculum that's really I think going to be popular with libraries. It's called Programming Pals. Dr. Jamie Varner has worked with Lori Maxic to write that, and it's about reading but it's also about programming. It's joining two things together because we don't want to promote coding and not promote reading because those are very big things and we want those two to go ... It's a literacy skill. Basically what we're working on is digital literacy skills. That's going to be the emerging trend that we see coming ahead. And so we'll be working on that. We're hoping to have a training on the EV3 robotics in late July or August, probably August now, and then we'll keep working on our Hummingbird and Python options for our senior 4-H'ers as well. John Long: That sounds awesome. Now real quick, I should have asked this at the beginning, but how many 4-H'ers, do you have any idea how many 4-H'ers or how widespread robotic ... I know it's growing, it's continued to grow, especially at project achievement day. It's just, I don't want to say crazy, but crazy in a good way, right? Dr. Morgan: Right, right. John Long: And so it's very large. I would assume that you've seen it grow quite a bit over the time that you've been over it. Dr. Morgan: Sure we have, and what we're seeing a lot now, which really excites me, is that our extension agents are taking it and doing it for summer programs. And so we have a lot of counties that do summer camps and do programming in the schools and even after school, and so that's really exciting to see that growing on its own really because they're able to have teachers trained and they're able to work with volunteers to offer that program to far more youth than I could ever reach on my own. And so when you ask how many, it would be hard to say just because the ones we see at competition are not necessarily reflected in all the hundreds of youth that they have been working with locally in their community. John Long: Yeah. And that just means that just because you're exposed to it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to compete in it. Dr. Morgan: That's right. You might be in dairy judging. John Long: That's right. That's right. That's right. And we're going to close ... no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Cobie Rutherford: I mean, if they found out there's ice cream in dairy judging. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. I'm going to say buckwheat honey does not trump ice cream. John Long: Buckwheat honey. Oh, it does not. Dr. Morgan: It does not. John Long: Not even if you put it in ice cream? Dr. Morgan: I don't think so. John Long: Oh well, we're not going to try that. Dr. Morgan: Exactly. No. John Long: Don't bring it to project achievement day, okay? Dr. Morgan: Okay. John Long: No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Well Mariah, thank you so much for being with us today and just keep up the good work and we just look so forward to see where robotics is going, and where it's been to where it's going is the sky's the limit and I think that's for sure. Cobie Rutherford: No doubt about it. John Long: Well with that we're going to wrap up 4-H-4-U-2. If you want more information on 4-H Robotics, Mariah, tell them where they can go to find more information about that. The website for sure, right? Dr. Morgan: The website for sure, and we also have a Facebook page. John Long: Wonderful. Dr. Morgan: Mississippi 4-H Robotics, and then of course they can email me, Mariah, mariah.s.morgan@msstate.edu. John Long: Awesome. Dr. Morgan: And I can refer them to the right place. John Long: Great. Great. Well thank you so much and we look forward to, again, maybe even having you on at another time and you'll have to wear the green wig. Dr. Morgan: Oh, absolutely. John Long: All right. Very good. All right and with that, I'm John. Cobie Rutherford: And I'm Cobie. John Long: And we'll see you next time on 4-H-4-U-2. Announcer: Thanks for joining us for 4-H-4-U-2. For more information, please visit extension.msstate.edu and be sure to subscribe to our podcast. 4-H-4-U-2 is produced by the Mississippi State University Extension Service, Office of Agricultural Communications.

Brad: Almost every couple, there is a period of ambiguity, that uncertainty that they go through. Are we going to stay together or are we going to be done? I want to spend a few moments just talking about this, the most important things that effect ambiguity. And I would say on this, it is really the factors that influence uncertainty for a spouse to choose to stay and factors that affect the spouse who is going to leave. I want to just go over these because they can help save your marriage; help you guys work through this a little bit more on what the spouse who had the affair is thinking and the spouse who was betrayed, what they are considering. And these are things that I hear, by no means is this list exhaustive. I have got 20 different things here, there could easily be 40 things but I just want to go through this. One of the things that is really important for injured spouses that affects if they want to stay or go, is the amount of deception involved by the one who had the affair; the amount of deception that they used to cover their tracks. Were you lying to me face to face? I've kind of felt like something was a little off. Did you lie to your spouse when this was happening? That is going to affect your ability to trust in their ambiguity. Morgan: Kind of your blatant lies. Brad: Yeah did they approach you? I feel like you may be cheating, is everything okay between us? Morgan: Oh no, no, not at all. Brad: No I am happily married, we are okay. You know a couple months later you find out that they have been cheating. That is going to affect your 'should we stay or go'. Morgan: Right they are going to go back to that moment. Another one would be, if it was witnessed by the injured spouse as it actually happened, as it physically happened, if they saw you with them--if they saw it, that could really influence their ambiguous feelings as to whether they should stay or go or if it should even remain intact. So witnessing the event is a big one. Brad: Yeah and Morgan that's very important. If you actually physically saw the-- what was happening between the two people, that's going to affect you. And what I am talking Page 2 of 6 about specifically is sex. You saw them having sex; that's going to affect if you want to stay or go. How much the injured spouse feels like they are being lied to? How much honesty is there? That's really what I am talking about. You know are you being honest with me? Morgan: Do I know what honesty looks like on your face? Brad: Yeah, how can I read you, how can I trust you? Are you being honest with me right now? Morgan: Hmm hmm. Another one would be, what the marriage was like before the affair. Was there a negative circle that was happening before you even discovered this or before it even led to an affair, right Brad? Brad: Hmm hmm. Morgan: That's a big one. Brad: That is super important. Morgan: Hmm hmm. Brad: You know Morgan along with that is the uncertainty of the spouse who's been betrayed, if it will happen again or do they know--what kind of reassurance do they have of, will it happen again? As long as that-- it's a huge question in their mind, they are going to be uncertain about staying or going. Morgan: Right, especially if this wasn't the first time they discovered that you had cheated. That's a big deal. The other one, the sincerity--the 7th one, the sincerity and remorse of the involved spouse will determine the level of uncertainty about the future of the injured spouse. Brad: Hmm hmm. Yeah Morgan, I would-- that's a very good one. You know how sincere, how remorseful are they? Do they care about me? And that really goes both ways because sometimes I have worked with people who had an affair--and I want to really make this really an exclamation point with what I am trying to say here. I have Page 3 of 6 seen people who have had an affair, who are very ambiguous and planning on leaving, they were totally burned out and they were having an affair because they were done with their marriage and pretty much ready to go. Morgan: Was that kind of an exit. Brad: Yeah, they were exiting the marriage, but one of the reasons they stayed in the marriage was because they had kids, but there was no emotional connection. And what helped them get the emotional connection back, is when they saw the one that they had hurt, saw how much they really love them and wanted to make it work. So when the person who had the affair saw the one they betrayed really care for them after their affair was made known, that is what help them choose to stay in the marriage. Morgan: Kind of re-engage. Brad: Yeah and that has happened a lot. And so yeah that sincerity and remorse, just knowing you are cared for, that is really what that is saying. I care about you and you have to show your sincerity and remorse, there is no shortcuts with that. Morgan another thing is, has the one who's been betrayed, the injured spouse, been betrayed before in a previous relationship. Morgan: Yeah, that would really put someone on edge, definitely a human lie detector at that point. It has happened to me before, how can I trust that it is not going to happen with you and if you are doing that, if you are betraying me, it's not as much of a surprise I think. The next one, the attitudes of family and friends who know about the affair, you know what are their attitudes? Are they encouraging you to try to work out your relationship or just encouraging you to leave? Brad: Yeah are they friendly towards your marriage? That can be a key one. Does the injured spouse have children with the betrayer? That affects uncertainty. Because we are getting low on time, I am going to sort through some of these. Religious views about divorcing your marriage, that's important. How much has the negative cycle affected the couple’s ability to discuss it (the affair) or even feel close? So there is a negative cycle that happens before the affair and obviously there is a negative cycle that affects the couple's ability to recover. Morgan: And to discuss the affair. Page 4 of 6 Brad: Hmm hmm. And if the injured spouse feels like they are too old to meet someone new, they will be more inclined to work things out, that's also a factor. Another factor is for the injured spouse is, is the betrayer getting help? If they are a sex addict or a philander, are they getting help for this? Am I seeing some real changes inside of them? If as long as there is a huge question mark around sex addiction or the morality or the values or the lifestyle of philander, as long as there is not any progression, there is no visible help being made or changes being made, people are going to be a little bit more uncertain about staying after they have been betrayed. Morgan: Right. Right that makes sense. What about the involved spouse? Brad: Yeah Morgan, the involved spouse, there is a few things for them as well that affect that level of ambiguity that is in them, that uncertainty about seeing and working it out. Number one I would say is the quality of the marriage before the affair- that's super important. How do I know that things will be different? And many times they want to leave because they don't know that. How deep was their feelings for the affair partner or how deep are they currently for the affair partner? Some people get stuck in that limerence which we have talked about. How long and how deep was the relationship with the affair partner? How long did this affair go on? How deep did it get? And I would even include with that, is how much fighting has gone on since the affair was discovered. That's an important part of choosing to work it out because people can really feel helpless and very hopeless. Morgan: Right, really stuck in that negative cycle too. Brad: Other factors that go with this, is does the betrayer have kids with their spouse at home? Does the betrayer have their own kids with their spouse who they cheated on? That's going to make them more likely to want to work it out. Religious views about divorcing their marriage and if the involved spouse feels like they are too old--and here's--and this is also important Morgan, if the involved spouse feels like they are too old to meet someone new, they will be more inclined to work things out. And you know Morgan this is so important for both, is both people need to know that they are cared about, that their spouse does love them, that they really are cared about? That's significant towards working this out, towards ambiguity. But those are some factors that influence ambiguity and we have discussed the, kind of the psychology of the betrayer, the mindset of someone who is having an affair; the thought process, where they are at Page 5 of 6 in their marriage. Affairs do not happen almost... Morgan: In a bubble. Brad: You know well most of the time in a healthy marriage, in a good marriage, sometimes people mistakenly think they are in a good marriage because there is not any conflict, we have good communication but they are not really communicating. Morgan: About wants and needs. Brad: Yeah well they are not really emotionally engaged with each other. They are really good roommates maybe. And people want to know that their desired and wanted and really cared for and when that's uncertain, that's when affairs happen, when that's uncertain in a person's mind, they are more likely to cheat. Morgan: They begin to care less about the marriage. Brad: Hmm hmm. Yeah they begin to care less about maintaining that relationship for emotional reasons. Morgan: And that usually happens over time, wouldn't you agree or could it be...? Brad: It can, it depends, it varies. Morgan: Okay. Brad: Well thank you, you have been listening to how to recover from an affair with Brad and Morgan Robinson. Morgan: Have a great week guys, thanks for listening