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Kiera and Tiff are together on the pod to talk about their favorite team bonding activities that keep everyone feeling seen, heard, valued, and respected. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and it is a special day. I have the one and only Spiffy Tiffy, TTKD on the pod. We normally don't get a podcast together and I feel Tiff, these used to happen a lot more. We like fix things and now we're gonna hang out a bit more. So welcome. I feel like it's such a treat when you and I get a podcast together. How are you today?   The Dental A Team (00:18) Thank you, I agree. We don't get enough time together and we are two ships in the night. So I'm good. I wanted to tell you though, ⁓ Spiffy Tiffy sparked this for me. Kiera, as everyone knows, is a fantastic gift giver. You really are, because you put so much thought into every gift that you give and it's sent with love. So I hope all of our clients who get gifts know that like that same spirit is sent in everything that you get. But my point of it is, years and years have gone by now.   The Dental A Team (00:28) Thank you.   Thank you.   The Dental A Team (00:45) that I get little Spiffy Tiffy gifts. So it either just says Spiffy Tiffy or it has my caricature who will make a comeback one day. But I used my, it's coming, I know, I know. I used my luggage, like my bag that you had given me. And I was just randomly just like walking along like I always do. This happens to me a lot, like Spiffy Tiffy. And I'm like, what? Like, who are you? Like, how do you know that? You listening to a podcast? That's weird.   The Dental A Team (00:50) One day, we're coming.   Mm-hmm.   Thank   you   The Dental A Team (01:12) And then I realized that I had   The Dental A Team (01:13) Weird.   The Dental A Team (01:13) my, they were like, what is that? What does that mean? And I was like, well, that's me, obviously. My caricature is on there. So anyways, it was just a funny story that I was just like, what? Like it always catches me off guard when somebody calls me Spiffy Tiffy, or when I get on a client call and somebody's like, ⁓ Spiffy Tiffy. And I'm like, this is so weird.   The Dental A Team (01:28) you   It is weird and so it makes me so happy that people like get into like who Tiff is the spiffy Tiffy like they're calling you they're like that's like a very very inner circle name and so for people in the airport to be like hey spiffy Tiffy.   The Dental A Team (01:38) They love it.   I know, literally, literally. And I had   a client the other day that was like texting me. ⁓ We text all the time, me and this client, he knows who he is and he listens to all of them and I know this because he was texting me and he's like, it's so weird. Well, he was voice texting in his Tessie, but he's like, this is so weird to be like listening to the podcast in my car, you're talking, but like I'm voice texting to you. So then Tessie is like saying it back. And I was like, wow, that is like an alternate universe.   The Dental A Team (01:55) Yeah.   you ⁓   you   That's a that's a full Spiffy Tiffy moment all the way around and I do love because Spiffy Tiffy actually came from the podcast So like we really want to throw this all the way back. I just I love a good a good nickname I love a good like and honestly tiff it's just stuck like it used to be like TT tiff tiff Spiffy Tiffy though I think is like the clutch like it is the best of the best so and I mean it's got to you We've been doing this for a long time together and that's I think why it's a special treat   The Dental A Team (02:19) Yeah.   I said it.   The Dental A Team (02:41) I don't know how you guys feel in your practices, but if you've got your core person that's been with you since the get-go, I think as the business evolves, you kind of lose that time together because you have to like, Tiff's over with consultant, she's podcasting, I'm running different pieces. We've got like our two different worlds, but I think like, I'm just gonna say a shout out to the founders and their like core person. Have fun time together. Like remember why you got into business together, which is why Tiff and I like enjoy a good podcast time. It's a good hangout. So on that note,   Tiff and I are gonna talk about one of our favorite things, team bonding. And this came up because Tiff has so many fun games that she does in offices when we go in and consult. And I just thought about like, offices don't think like we do. And I didn't realize this, Tiff and I used to think everybody, I mean, Tiff and I can be across a room, even today when we're coming onto the podcast, I'm going into Slack to message Tiff our link to podcasts, right as she's sending me a thing of do you want me to join? Like Tiff and I are, it is a weird.   I do feel like we were twins. Like, I think we just got separated by one year, but like we were meant to come into this world at the same time. It is a weird synergy that we have together. So sometimes we think that everybody thinks like us for better or for worse. And I was realizing that teams don't think about team bonding like you and I do Tiff. You are such a talented person at getting teams to engage, to have fun, to like get lightheartedness and then really dig into deep topics. And so that's where I thought, Hey, it's Kieran Tiff. Like, let's just do a throwback. Let's have a fun time today on the podcast and give our listeners.   Like, hey, here's some great ideas for team bonding that you can do that's fun, enjoyable, energetic, and honestly will bring a little curative magic to your practice. And if you hate doing this, a reason you should reach out to Dental A Team, because we love to do this. I feel like we're just going to put on a party when we're in an office and have a good time doing it. So Tiff, let's talk some of our favorite team bonding things that we do in offices.   The Dental A Team (04:26) Yeah, think number one, thank you, Kiera, for all of what you said. There's so much there to be thankful for and grateful for. So this journey has been incredible. And I'm just excited that we're still here together. It's been some moments, you know? I'm kidding, not kidding, but dirty laundry.   The Dental A Team (04:38) Me too. Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to slight tangent. was recording earlier and   I was talking about like 12 systems and I'm like, Oh my gosh, Tiff and I did a labor of love on the podcast. Do you remember that? We did all 12 systems and we talked about how like you and I have hard conversations together and some client texted you and they're like, how did you and Kiera get there? And you're like, Oh, if you see the conversations behind the scenes that we've had for the years. And I say like, man,   The Dental A Team (04:53) huh.   The Dental A Team (05:07) appreciation to you. This was not my forte until I met you and you have pulled it out of me, but I do agree. I think that will also tie into team bonding. it's not really a total side tangent. ⁓ I think having conversations and relationships, we were even talking about, we're coming together for a company ⁓ annual planning of leadership and we were debating like, we all stay in separate hotels or do we get a VRBO and we're all together? And Tiff, you said it so well this morning. You're like, it's like family.   The Dental A Team (05:17) So I was gonna say, yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:33) When you're in leadership, when you're in teams, you've got to learn to work through those problems and not just run to your room, slam the door and be siloed. But I think that that's what team building and bonding is supposed to be about. It's not just supposed to be the surface level. Like if you really want a team that can jive and energize and be solid, you've got to have these team building. And I think a lot of team buildings, the communication and tip, that's honestly something shout out to you and appreciation. Cause the woman I am today, you have had a huge influence on me being the communicator.   the hard conversations, the directness. You even tell me like, Kiera, just be freaking direct. Just tell me what you want. I'm like, okay, this is what I want. Like, thank you. That's great. Let's move on. And just the, which I appreciate. So I think like not planned. I think that that's a core route to the team bonding and the pieces is that's what you're ultimately trying to get to is that that connection, that confidence, that trust, that vulnerability that you can say what needs to be said. And the person on the other side is not just going to walk away.   The Dental A Team (06:07) Yeah, that's my efficiency.   The Dental A Team (06:28) even if it doesn't land right. There have been times you and I have had eyes with each other of like, so I'm going to say like what I think you were trying to say and you let me know if that's what you meant. Cause what I heard was definitely not that.   The Dental A Team (06:38) Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate that. And I think that to my core, it's why, to my core, it's why waste time on stuff that doesn't, like why waste time, period. Just why waste time? Time is like so precious in all of our lives and we spend so much time trying to figure out what someone meant by something they said or what they're actually thinking or.   they said this, like actually they I know that they meant this. I'm like, well, you don't because that's not what they said. So like you can ask them or we can sit here and like keep talking about it. My friends probably love and hate that about me and Kiera, you probably do too, because sometimes I'm just like, how many times are we going to talk about this like boy, right? Like, like I can't talk about this boy anymore because you it's either yes or no. like, so we move on, right. So time and I do think like   The Dental A Team (07:13) love.   The Dental A Team (07:24) I appreciate that, Kiera. Everything you said, again, thank you. And I agree, like we've come so far and with team bonding and even just like having fun team meetings, the key is that everyone in life just wants to enjoy what we're doing. We just want to enjoy every day. We just want to enjoy the life that we're living. So coming in and having a stuffy meeting or having a like forced to bond with people situation, like sometimes I don't want to bond with that person and that's okay too. We can still be on a team together and work.   really freaking well. So don't force people to bond together and don't force things that just just don't force things you guys it should be a very natural situation but the point of all of that is my core is efficiency so like don't waste time just what can we do to like just and and I'm not saying don't work through things I'm saying tell me what needs to be said so that we can work through it because I will spend as much time as possible.   as needed, as necessary to work through something. But I don't like the like him and ha back and forth because it makes me uncomfortable because I can't figure out what to do. And so it's a space of just like, as long as it's clear, I can work through anything with anyone. I can be anyone's friend for the rest of our eternity because I can work through anything as long as on the other side it's reciprocated. And for team bonding, and I think   me working with teams, I think that's something that I carry and that I bring to make it fun. It's like, cool, we're gonna have fun. And who I am as I show up today is who I am as I show up in offices too. And so I think it breaks down a lot of barriers. So when you come in and you're like, I am the leader and I am the boss and we're gonna do these things, it's like, no, just be with them. So we can just be with each other and be together. like Kiera.   Kiera not staying, she doesn't have to stay at the VRBO while we go do our leadership retreat, right? Like we could have put the rest of us together because we're not the owner of the company and maybe she needs a breather, maybe she needs, like she could have done that, but it would have broken that bond between Kiera and the rest of the team. So her being like on the same level as us does not mean that we don't respect her as the owner of the company and as the lead to us that she is.   it means that we feel seen, heard, valued, and respected ourselves. So that team bonding really becomes about the team and not just the rest of the team. Kiera's a part of that team. ⁓ But I think, Kiera, I think that was massive information and it was a good spin on it. But I think the fun piece that we bring, think we should, we talk about that. And a lot of that comes from Kiera, you,   The Dental A Team (09:58) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (10:12) giving the permission to be that way. When we first started, I think anyone who's like, there's a lot there, but I think anyone who's like, I'm going to be a consultant, right? It's like, I'm going to wear the heels and I'm going to wear the pencil skirt. I was listening to a podcast yesterday, it was like that CEO mindset. And it's like every little girl is taught like you're going to be a mom and a CEO. And we all have that mindset. And that CEO is like, stern. She's like, Yep, GSD.   The Dental A Team (10:17) you   The Dental A Team (10:41) We don't laugh, don't talk, we get stuff done and I go home to my kids. And it's just like this like stern, stuffy human. And coming into consulting, it feels like that's how I'm supposed to be. And I know a lot of companies are that way and that's totally fine. And I know it works for people, works for people. What we came into was know we're here to have fun and we're gonna bring out the child-like enthusiasm.   Because it helps get things done and people can love their jobs like I don't want to come in and be like man I do this Stern Stern I want to come in and be like let's play games like let's rally let's shake things up let's make this fun again and watch what you can do to your profitability just by Living a fun life and care I think that's a piece that people miss when we when we decide we're adults now, so we decide we're adults and we're like   The Dental A Team (11:15) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (11:36) not supposed to have fun anymore. We're not supposed to laugh at work. We're supposed to be serious. And that was just the movies we watched, right? That was the Devil Wears Prada. Nobody's actually running around like the Devil Wears Prada and loving their life. Like, no, we're here to have fun. And Kiera, think that's something that you give all of us permission to do, because I think that's the spirit that you carry in life. I think it's like a balance for you, and you're constantly on the teeter totter of that. But I, as just   The Dental A Team (11:46) Right. ⁓   The Dental A Team (12:05) lead consultant in the company, not owners, CEO, whatever titles you carry, I get to live that up constantly and not have that teeter quite as much. So I think when it comes to team bonding and you asking me that it's because I do have that permission to like shake things up and just be fun and have fun. And if I'm, I tell my, every practice I walk into, every team meeting that we do, I tell them if we're not having fun here.   The Dental A Team (12:06) you   The Dental A Team (12:32) I am peace and out. I do not want to live a life that's not fun. So this meeting is like, yeah, exactly. And I tell them that I'm efficient, I'm not wasting my time, I'm not wasting your time. Promise you, I will never waste your time. So if we're not having fun in this meeting, we are not enjoying the heck out of our lives and getting actionable, clear, pushing forward pieces that we can implement right away, why did we even come here today?   The Dental A Team (12:35) There's your efficiency.   I love it. And thank you for the things you said and the agreed fun I think is such a key element in the spirit of fun. I was thinking about it. It's not quite my best alliteration for you, but I think it's going to be just an added on for you that you're going to appreciate. I was thinking, okay, TIFFs efficiency. We've got Spiffy Tiffy. So it's not perfect because I think it can be taken a smidgey wrong, but I think it's freaking funny. I think we call you iffy Spiffy Tiffy because I can't quite get efficiency, but the iffy kind of just edges for you.   The Dental A Team (13:26) So it's like, yeah,   yeah, yeah, I like it, I like it.   The Dental A Team (13:27) We got the iffy   Spiffy Tiffy over there. I'll work on it a little bit more. But to that point, the efficiency, the fun, the team bonding and agreed for me, I don't want to be in a company and this is your space. This is what you do for us on Dental A Team. Fun is one of our core values. It's who I am at my core. ⁓ like yesterday I walked into a meeting, ⁓ and walked in virtually and Eve, our marketer, I she doesn't get embarrassed by this. Like it was freaking funny. I laughed so hard. We were like changing our names. were giving me a hard time because my name came in as the wrong name.   And she was like, Kiera, no, you can just change your name like this. So she put in big boss in all caps and we're on this marketing meeting and I freaking laughed. I thought it was hilarious. The fact that she could say that in front of her boss to me. Well, I also know that Eve has the utmost respect for me of what we would do and would never in her wild streams ever disrespect me. So then of course I pop onto the me. I had to like switch and join in a different way. So I throw in bigger boss with a smiley face.   and Eve like dies laughing on it. And then our marketing consultant was like, and the ultimate boss. But I think in those realms, being human as the CEO and as the boss of it is more fun. And Tiff, to your point about team meetings and team bonding, I think living life on purpose and having fun in what you're doing is the key to getting success of your team. We can talk and we can give you all the tactics. Like Tiff and I do balloon towers and we help you with that. We do a lemonade stand. That's a ton of fun. We do.   Two truths and a lie. do, ⁓ gosh, there's like riddles that we do. There's so many different things that we do that we can tell you that we can spin. We do paper airplanes, we do peanut butter and jelly. Like we can give you the tactical, but Tiff, think it was unintentionally perfect today that the core of how you get team bonding to really resonate is one, be who you are and be true to who you are. I did not want a stuffy consulting company. That was not what I was here for. I did not want the pencil skirts. I want us to deliver the pencil skirt standard while being an approachable human for you.   And that to us is our core. That's who we bring in for consultants. If you are too stuffy, if you can't have fun, if you can't laugh at yourself, probably not the place to be because we want clients to be able to do that. So one, be true to who you are. Two, have fun and make sure that your team and your like you're experiencing this and then do bonding on purpose. Like you said, Tiff, I think it's like, what's the purpose when we do all those games, there is a purpose that we tie to it of helping people like peanut butter and jelly is communication of handoffs.   Like you tell me to put peanut butter on, I'm gonna wipe it all the way up my arm. We had a whole commercial for this, like let's do some real big throwbacks. It was one of the funniest things we ever did because like that was real and that's real life for handoffs. But when you do team bonding, make sure it's intentional, make sure you're human, make sure you're real and make sure you're having fun. I think would kind of be the pretty bow to put on this team bonding. Tiff, any last bows you wanna add to our team bonding funds? Iffy, smiffy, tiffy over there.   The Dental A Team (15:46) So great.   Yeah. I... Whatever it is. Come on, guys.   You guys can help with this. Everyone knows me now. ⁓ No, I think...   The Dental A Team (16:10) I'm gonna get you a bag.   They're gonna really like iffy Spiffy Tiffy. I just love okay I'll work on it   The Dental A Team (16:15) Are you or aren't you? Which one is it? I   think a pretty bow. I think you hit so many pieces on the head. I think one of the pieces you said was, yes, make sure that the games are intentional. Whatever it is that it's tying back to something. So something I think we do really well is tie back to the thing that we want. train teams to do this all the time. It's like treatment planning. I want you to schedule. So it's like, no, I don't have that. But what I can do is put you here. I'm tying it back always to what I want.   So whatever game it is, whatever bonding experience it is, like how can we relate this to what we're doing? Kiera took us all, and this is not to tell you what to do with your bonding. Kiera took us all one year to Disney. And we were like, fantastic. But then right before Disney, she's like, and our goal is to figure out how Disney does what they do, right? And I was like, for the love, we can't just have a day, you know? But then it was like, immediately I was like, gosh, give it up, woman, right?   The Dental A Team (16:53) Thank   The Dental A Team (17:14) But then I was like, actually, that's really brilliant because how does Disney do what they do? Like, how do they clean up the trash without anybody knowing? Like, how do we go above and beyond for our clients in a way that mimics how Disney goes above and beyond? And so it actually turned into like this really great thing, right? But anyways, be intentional, be true to yourself, be yourself, and let people see you.   The Dental A Team (17:38) Tiff, yes, I have softened up a little bit. We don't always have as many meetings or as many photo shoots, but I appreciate that you said that because I also do believe as a CEO, I want people to bond and to be together and to, but again, it's an intentional bonding. And when we did go to Disney and it was a ton of fun, like we had a blast. think our second round, you and I looked at each other, because sometimes Tiff and I, we have a good, good friendship, you guys. We've been like dear friends, like.   The Dental A Team (17:42) ⁓   Thank you.   The Dental A Team (18:04) I'd put it in like BFF. Like I think if we were in elementary school, we'd have those separate heart brace like necklaces. ⁓ Tiff and I are truly like dear friends in and outside of work. And I sometimes make Tiff not be my friend in public settings because I'm like, no, I'm here as a boss. And the last time we loosened up a lot and I'm like, everybody should know that Spiffy, Tiffy and Katie go way far back in the, like you should be grateful that Tiff and I are as close as we are for the things we've gone through. But to that point when we did Disney,   The Dental A Team (18:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (18:33) I think that there's always, ⁓ as leaders, your job is to make sure teams can tie back to that because you might help them highlight and see, Tiff now thinks about Disney very differently, then it's fun, but how can we now make our company this way? And to develop and develop leaders, I think is one of the paramount pieces of team development. So I know Tiff and I were a little like spirally, we had a good time. guys, Tiff and I don't get to chat all the time, so I hope you enjoyed a little chit chat personal on this, also a lot of fun, but I hope if nothing else, you take the core of exactly what Tiff said.   Be intentional, be true to yourself, bond for the sake of bonding, not forced bonding, and really truly have a lot of fun. Teams will resonate so much faster in that childhood fun. How do we as consultants flip the results we do? It's by getting you to basic ease, fun core that helps them see the purpose, the why behind it, but did it in such a playful, fun way. So if you need more tips or you want help with that, be sure to reach out. Tiff and I have a bajillion ideas. I feel like we're like Mary Poppins with our bag full of tricks, but it's truly with intentional purpose.   to help your teams just rise to the level that they want to go, not necessarily where the CEO wants them to go. It's conjoined, it's conjunct, like they really do come together. So enjoy that. Tiff, thanks for being on the podcast. I know we've got to both run to our next meetings, but thank you. Swiftie Tiffy, thanks for being in my life. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for giving all this goodness to everybody. And truly you just change teams lives when you go in there. So I think any practice who gets to work with you or our team that you train truly is super blessed to have that. So thank you. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:44) Thank you.   Thank you. Thank you.   The Dental A Team (20:02) And for all of you listening, reach out, go to the website, click on, book a call. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com is our email reach out. We're here to help you and your team have more fun. Enjoy. And as always, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.  

In this episode, the focus is on clergy abuse—a topic made even more pressing by recent headlines. The featured guest, Sandy Phillips Kirkham, shares her harrowing ordeal of being abused by a charismatic youth pastor starting at the age of 16. Sandy discusses the grooming process, the five years of abuse, and how she was ultimately expelled from her church while her abuser was merely relocated. She delves into the long-lasting impact of the abuse on her life and her spiritual journey, how she concealed her trauma for 27 years, and how she ultimately confronted her abuser. Sandy also provides valuable insights and actionable advice for preventing abuse and supporting victims within church communities. Her story is also detailed in her book, ‘Let Me Prey on You,' which offers a detailed account of her journey from victim to advocate. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:32 Introducing Today's Topic: Clergy Abuse 02:17 Sandy Phillips Kirkham's Early Life and Church Involvement 06:22 Meeting the Abuser: The Charismatic Youth Pastor 08:43 Red Flags and Grooming Tactics 13:51 The First Inappropriate Act 16:37 The Abuse Escalates 21:06 The Aftermath and Church's Response 28:15 Life After Abuse: Marriage and Keeping Secrets 32:09 Protecting Future Generations 35:17 The Importance of Sex Education in the Church 36:32 Techniques for Discussing Sex with Children 37:22 Personal Experiences with Sex Education 38:20 Triggering Memories and Emotional Breakdown 40:13 The Journey of Healing Begins 41:31 Understanding Clergy Abuse and Self-Forgiveness 43:52 Confronting the Abuser 47:07 Challenges in Seeking Justice 54:47 Preventing Abuse in the Church 01:00:31 Supporting Victims of Clergy Abuse 01:05:07 Final Thoughts and Resources Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com  Purchase her book “Let Me Prey Upon You” on amazon: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/let-me-prey-upon-you/   Link Tree   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Sandy Phillips Kirkham [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello. Welcome everyone. Welcome to my regular listeners, as well as some new listeners that have joined us today. I have a great guest for you today. We're going to be talking about clergy abuse today. Religious leader, abuse. Pastor, youth leader. You've seen this in the news recently with all these preachers being arrested or charged with sexual misconduct or rape or [00:02:00] pedophilia. I'm sure you've seen the news. Well, today we're going to hear a story about a woman who's been victimized in that way and she's fighting back. So let me read her bio for you. A church is where an insecure 16-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe tragically. For some, the church can become a place of great harm. Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken with a shattered faith and the ultimate shame of being blamed enforced from the church she loved. Despite a successful and happy life, is a wife, mother, and friend. Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for [00:03:00] 27 years until a trigger forced her to face the truth. Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let me pray upon you her book details. Sandy's journey from innocent 16-year-old, a victim to a survivor, and advocate. We please welcome Sandy Phillips. Kirk, welcome Sandy to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Wow. So I've been listening to you on the Preacher Boys podcast and thought you had a really great story, and so I wanted to come and bring you on so my listeners can hear your story as well. Mm-hmm. So tell us a little bit about your home and your church environment growing up. Let's [00:04:00] start from the beginning here. Okay. I'm the oldest of five. My parents were divorced when I was about seven, which that was really the impact of my life, of just how it altered everything about that time in my life. Then my mother remarried and we moved in with my stepfather shortly after my father remarried, and so I was dealing with these blended families and it was just very confusing for me at the time, my parents and stepfather did not attend church. So I, I wasn't a part of a church until I was about eight, and that's when my best friend who lived up the street invited me to go with their family, and I went with them and I went every Sunday after that, I absolutely fell in love with church. It was a place that I felt safe. I think it provided for me a place away from home that I felt comfortable and I got attention there. I was very active even as a small child. I went to vacation Bible school, church camp, love Sunday School. I sang in a junior choir. Really, it was a just a great place for me to [00:05:00] be. When I was 13, I was baptized and then my faith really deepened and my involvement in the church became even more so, started teaching Sunday school and teaching vacation Bible school. I started serving on committees with adults and doing more of the activities that would, , just be more in depth than just typical youth group activities. So, it's just no exaggeration to say that if the doors of the church were open, I was there and I loved it. I loved serving God. I felt that was the place for me, and everything about it was brought me joy and peace in the church. Wow. You really, were very sincere in your faith. It was not a fake one. I hear a lot of stories of. Being brought up in the church and being made to go to church and, you just go through the motions kind of thing. But it sounds like it was the opposite for you. It was that you really believed this with all your heart. Was that a fundamental Baptist church you were going [00:06:00] to or what? It was a church, Christ Christian Church, which is similar to the Baptist. It's an independent church. Yeah, that's the church. That was so something happened while you were serving the Lord and loving God. You met your abuser? Yes. Shortly after I turned 16, our church hired a new youth pastor, and from the moment he arrived, he was totally different than anyone we'd ever seen before. He was very charismatic, very dynamic. His sermons were really like nothing we'd ever heard before, and people were just drawn to him. He had a personality that people found themselves wanting to be around him. They wanted to please him. So he was very good at asking people to do things and they didn't hesitate. It, it was just a different kind of atmosphere. When he came to the church, the youth group exploded in numbers. We went from like 25 to almost 200 in a very short time. Even the [00:07:00] adult church was growing because people just came to hear him preach because he was so good at what he did. He was 30, married with two children, but he really acted more like our age group. He dressed like we did. He. Went to our football games at school, he knew our music. So he just, he really, he was tuned into us and in return we found ourselves, all of us being willing to please him and wanna do anything we could to make the youth group and the church better. So when people think of a profile of a child abuser, they usually think, oh, some dirty old man, that his roaming fingers or what have you, but this youth pastor sounded like, okay, he was really good looking and hip and really loved the young people. Mm-hmm. Is that typical of. Well, it's, it's typical in the sense that it's not the, dirty old man hiding in the bushes. Most abusers [00:08:00] are people we know. They're people that we like. They're usually people that, connect with people very well, and that's what makes them so dangerous because they're not obvious with what they do, and they're very good at that. They pretend to be one of us. They pretend to care, but in reality, their goal is to find a way to take advantage of the most vulnerable in, in the group. And so, predators are usually drawn to places where they will find vulnerable people. The gymnastics team is an example of that. The Boy Scouts, anywhere where you can, and certainly the church because we are welcoming into people who are in need. Oftentimes. Then there are many people in the church who are vulnerable to these types of men, and sometimes women. Were there any red flags? That you should have seen or noticed when you were around this youth pastor? Well, he came with so many different ideas and different ways of doing things. And one of the things that he was doing now, this was in the [00:09:00] seventies, so cultures were changing and it was free love and kind of thing. But he came into our church and he expected everyone to hug each other. So we were always hugging each other. And he also expected us to say how much we loved each other and that we love you and not just that I love you in Christ. He would simply walk up, give you a hug and say, I love you. Now you know, that may seem innocent, but that's a little odd for that pastor to be saying those kinds of things. And it also blurs the lines because when you say to someone, I love you, that can be confusing to. Young teenagers and even to vulnerable adults. So, but he did that with everybody. It wasn't like he picked someone else special, but, so the hugging in the contact was kind of a red flag in the beginning. But for me personally, I babysat for his family. His wife worked evenings. Mm-hmm. So one night after he came home, he asked me to go to his basement and listen to a song by Neil Diamond. [00:10:00] Well, it felt a little weird 'cause I'd never. I've been around a pastor that wanted to talk to me about anything but church in the Bible. But I went to the basement. Yeah. I mean a Neil Diamond song. So I went to the basement. I know, but that's a trigger factor for me sometimes. So anyway, I went to the basement and he put this record on and I sat down on the couch and instead of sitting in a chair or another place, he came on the couch and sat very close to me. And I remember feeling uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. 'cause I thought, well, he is just sitting next to me. It's no big deal. But that's a red flag that I felt because it felt uncomfortable to me. And then the other times that I would babysit for him. His wife wouldn't come home till late in the evening, so he would come home around seven or eight and after the kids were in bed, instead of taking me home, he wanted me to sit and talk with him all evening. So we'd talk about the Bible or we'd talk about church, and sometimes he'd ask me what I thought of his [00:11:00] sermon, which at age 16, I'm flattered that this man has any idea that I would have some opinion about this great sermon that he just gave. So I didn't see anything wrong with that because he's my pastor. But had that occurred with my 30-year-old neighbor down the street, every time I went to babysit, I know I would've come home to my mother and said, okay, this is weird. Mm-hmm. Every time I babysit, this man wants to sit and talk to me all evening. I mean, what interest would I have as a teenager wanting to talk to this 30-year-old married man? But because my pastor was who he was and he tapped into our common connection of the church and God, and again, many times he would give me books to read 'cause he wanted me to get better in my deep, in my spirituality. So I didn't see anything wrong with it because of who he was. And so I just accepted that behavior, which is another tool and technique. They look for ways to get into you. Mm-hmm. [00:12:00] That don't seem obvious. And that was, so those were two red flags for me. Now as far as the congregation goes, I was in his office a lot by myself, but so were other kids, because he would actually call us into his office and say, I want you to come in and tell me what's going on in your life. Talk to me about your problems. Instead of us going to him, he would encourage us to come into his office. So while that probably wasn't a good thing, no one saw it as a bad thing. It seemed normal, but he called me into his office a lot more than the other kids. And later on there were people who did say to me, there were times when I wondered why he said something to you like that, or I noticed something one time. And so I think people notice some things, but no one thought enough of it to say, okay, there's something going on that doesn't seem right. So those were the red flags that I think in the beginning were very subtle. But they were hard to see, [00:13:00] and this is really important to distinguish these things because I was groomed by a guidance counselor in seventh grade. Mm-hmm. But he was one of those dirty old men that, he was doing creepy stuff. Yeah. But I never would have seen myself. A pastor and he's talking about spiritual things and he's talking about God and mm-hmm. He's not talking about sex. He's not watching, you're not watching dirty movies together. No, he's not, buying you sexy lingerie. It's, Hey, he's doing spiritual things. Mm-hmm. It's a setup. It's that grooming process you're talking about. It's pulling someone in to gain their trust, in a very di diabolical way, because he's using the church to do that. That's really scary. That scares mm-hmm. Scares me to death. What were the first times that he did something really inappropriate that you were just like, whoa? Well, the very [00:14:00] first time, was after a youth group meeting that was held in my home. I was the song leader. He put me in a leadership position, and it was very important to him that the evening always go well and that we were to make people feel welcome. And so at the end of the evening, I was nervous because I wanted to make sure that he thought everything went well. And he came up to me in my hallway and began telling me how great the evening was and how proud he was of me. And I was on Cloud nine. I was flattered that he felt that way. I felt good that the evening went so well. And then he just slowly bent down and he kissed me. And it wasn't, it was a kiss, but it seemed somewhat innocent to some extent. And I, I remember thinking, I think he just kissed me. Then my next thought was, well, he's my pastor and I don't think he would be doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And it was just a quick kiss. And he's always hugging people. And so maybe this is just his way of showing his appreciation for the evening. It was really [00:15:00] the only way in my 16-year-old mind that I could justify it because I couldn't think about this man doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And this was a person that everyone loved and thought so highly of, so how could I think he was doing something he shouldn't be doing? So I just let it go. I didn't think anything more about it. I mean, did you have any sex ed or anything? Did you know the birds and bees? Nine. Well, yeah, I'm 16. I did. Yeah, I did. But I wasn't, I hadn't dated much. I wasn't allowed to date till I was 16, so I hadn't had any dating experience. I had one kiss before this with a boy at camp. So I wasn't. Worldly or knowledgeable about all those things. But, and again, it was such a quick innocent type kiss. He didn't grab me, he didn't push me against the wall. I just, and again, I think for me it was okay if he's, if this is more than just a kiss, then what do I do with it? So therefore I'm just gonna say it's [00:16:00] nothing because I don't know what else to do. Um, wow. I let it go. I let it go. But as I babysat for him, he, sometimes when I would leave, he would kiss me and sometimes he wouldn't. So, I didn't see it as a con, kind of a continual thing that he was always wanting to kiss me. He always hugged me. But the kissing became more intense as it went along. So it, it would be another year, before he would have sex with me. And so that grooming process and kind of pushing the boundaries each time he was with me, finally ended with him having sex with me. Oh, wow. Now, some of us listening are like an adult having sex with a child or 16-year-old. Can you unpack that a little bit more, the process of how he got to that point? I mean, that the first time you had intercourse, I mean, did he, you know, go to a hotel with you and you had a candlelight dinner, or was it in the backseat of the car?[00:17:00] Was it an accident? It wasn't an accident. He was very deliberate and I had every intentions of having sex with me that night. I babysat, I was babysitting, I put the kids to bed, I walked down the steps. I assumed that we would go into the living room. Or the family room, sit on the couch and talk about the things we always talked about. But instead, he stopped me at the bottom of the stairs and he took me into the living room, and immediately put me on the floor and began undressing me. Um, and wow, I froze. I, I literally froze and I kept thinking to myself, he's going to stop. He's going to stop. And that the entire time he's whispering into my ear how much he loves me, that he would never hurt me, and that he can, I can trust him. And then he kept asking me, do you love me? Do you love me? And I, of course, I'm answering yes, because well, yes I do, because that's what I've told him for the past year. I, I, I just, I was so confused and what my real reaction was, I froze. Mm-hmm. Um, he, he sort of pushed my head under the [00:18:00] stereo. And so when he is starting to get farther than I thought he would ever go. I blocked, I just blocked it out and I started reading the serial numbers underneath the stereo. Oh my goodness. Just to be thinking of anything else. Um, at one point he then just picked me up and took me upstairs. He literally put me on the bed, penetrated me, and that was it. And I was horrified. I was absolutely horrified. I, I wanted to cry. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. Um, he left the room, told me to get dressed, and he would take me home. And I remember sitting on the bed and I put the bedspread around me because I was so embarrassed that I didn't have my clothes on. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Um, and then I just remember thinking I just had sex. I'm no longer a virgin. I just had sex with this man and. He took me home. Now, in the [00:19:00] book, of course, I go into a little bit more detail, but Right, he took me home and just before I got outta the car, he said to me, now, you know, this is something between the two of us, you can't tell anyone. And of course I'm thinking, who would I tell? I, I don't want anybody to know. I just did this. So, that was the first time. And then I think I, at that point I kept thinking, you know, I've had sex with him. So now I'm committed to him again. I'm at this point, I'm 17 years old. I'm still like, what do I do with this? I don't, I don't know what to do with this. Um, and he was convincing me that he loved me. He was convincing me that he needed me in his ministry and that God, this was God's will in our lives. He threw that at me. Eventually he would say to me that we were married in God's eyes. I mean, twisting the scripture and using God as a reason that we should be together. And so. I started to accept that. There were a couple times I went to him and told him that I couldn't do this anymore. I felt [00:20:00] guilty. He would respond in one of two ways. One, he would say to me how much he needed me, how much he loved me, and that he couldn't live without me. So that was the guilt part of it. Or he would respond and by saying to me, you know, you're no longer a virgin. No one else is gonna want you. I'm the only one that knows how to love you, and you are committed to me, and this is gonna be the way it is. And I saw no way out. I didn't see a way out. And so the relationship continued for five years. Wow. Five years. It went on for five years. That is a long time. And it, during that time, he became more aggressive physically. Uh, he hit me. He became sexually more deviant. It just progressed. It got worse and worse. And to a point that I finally, I was, my self-esteem was so low. I hated myself for what I'd been doing. So I finally just accepted that this was my life. I knew [00:21:00] I'd never get married. I knew I'd never have children, and this wouldn't be over until he said it was over. This went on for five years and nobody in the church noticed it. Your parents didn't notice it. You know, people say, well, where were your parents? Well, first of all, my parents were thrilled. I was in church. I mean, this was a time in the seventies when drugs were. Prevalent girls were, having free sex. So for them, what safer place could there be than to be in church? So, and they saw his intention toward me and his involvement with me as a good thing. I mean, he would take me on hospital visits with him. I mean, they saw this as being positive. And they knew how much I loved being there and that it was a place that I liked to go. So they didn't see it. And many in the church didn't see it began because who suspects the pastor of such behavior. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And especially in the seventies when this wasn't an open topic like it is now, you wouldn't have dared thought anything like that. And so [00:22:00] it's not uncommon for people in the church, to miss the signs and to ignore what they really do see, because they just can't believe that it would be something that would be happening in their church because then they'd have to do something about it. Yes, exactly. When did it all come crumbling down? It does crumble. Eventually it does. Two elders became suspicious and followed him one night and found us together in a hotel room. And then from then on, the next month and a half was an absolute nightmare for me. Hmm. It was initially hoped that they could keep what he had done, quiet and keep it from the congregation. Now, I have to say one thing before I forget. This wasn't his first incident of sexual misconduct. Oh. Prior to and just after he was awri, he arrived at our church. A young woman from his first church came forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. When he was [00:23:00] confronted by my elders, he didn't deny it. He said it was true. He asked for forgiveness, that it would never happen again. It was a mistake. So within six months. That's when he was kissing me in my hallway. So this, so these elders were aware that this was the second time that there had been an incident with this man of sexual abuse and misconduct. But in spite of that, they tried to keep it quiet in hopes of moving him to another church. And so I was told during that time where I was to sit, how I was to respond to questions. I wasn't to talk to anyone. I wasn't to tell anyone about what had happened, including my parents. And this was all in an effort to keep it quiet. Well, that effort failed. And so it was determined that he should address the congregation. He did it in a very vague way, just simply said that he'd sinned. He'd sinned against God, and he'd sinned against his wife. And that was his confession. That was it. Two days later, he had me meet [00:24:00] him in a hotel room after that confession in front of the congregation. Now. He was moved to the next church. He was given a going away party. There was actually a vote to maybe keep him, but the vote failed and they decided to move him to the next church. About, two weeks, three weeks later, I was called in by the elders, and this is probably the hardest part of my story for me. Mm-hmm. I was called in by the elders and I was told that because of my behavior I was to leave the church. I was devastated. I loved that church. It was the only church I knew, and here I was being told by these two elders that I wasn't fit to worship there any longer. Mm-hmm. He could be forgiven and given a second, third chance. I couldn't be, I was told that to leave the church. I wasn't given any counseling. I wasn't helped in any way. I was simply told to leave and I did. I left. [00:25:00] And that I told people many times, as horrific as the abuse was, having been told to leave, that church had a greater impact on me spiritually than the actual abuse did. I don't think I ever recovered from that. It still haunts me to this day to some extent. That response of the church really devastated me. So that was the crumbling, as you called it? It came crashing down and I would, I left the church. So did that change your perception of God? What was your relationship with God this time? Yes. You were kicked outta the church, but. Well, I felt a disconnect from God. I never blamed God. I never felt like God caused this to happen. I, in fact, I carry the blame and the shame. I felt guilty for what I had done. And so I never blamed God, but because of the relationship being tied in with God and the [00:26:00] prayers that this man would give, and then, you know, he'd give these wonderful sermons about marriage and sanctity of marriage on a Sunday morning after having sex with me the night before. I had difficulty separating all of that, and there were so many trigger factors associated with the church and prayer that God really did. It was hard for me to have any kind of relationship with God. I did. I didn't become an atheist like a lot of victims do, and who become angry at God. I simply just. I just put him on the back burner. I knew he existed, but I didn't have a connection with him any longer. So for 27 years, I, I never prayed. I never opened my Bible. I went to church because when I met my husband, he was a Methodist. And I thought, well, I'll go to the Methodist Church. It's a different denomination. Mm-hmm. I'll just go on. It should be fine. It didn't work that way. I had anxiety attacks in church. I, his [00:27:00] reminders of him were constant, but I forced myself to go. I made sure that I went because I knew when we had children, I wanted them to have that church experience. But every time I walked past the minister's office, I got a knot in my stomach. Oh yeah. It had nothing to do with that minister. But you understand that. I mean, it, but I did that for 27 years. It became my norm. I just knew that when I walked past that office, I was gonna get a knock my stomach, certain hymns. I can tell you what his favorite hymn was, and every time that was played, that's who I thought of. I couldn't pray. It was so, I did have a deep, deep disconnect for 27 years, and I have to tell you, I missed it. I actually mourn that loss of my spiritual life, but I didn't know how to get it back. Because I'm keeping this secret. I'm still carrying guilt and shame. I couldn't forgive myself. I didn't feel worthy to be in church. So with all of that mixed in, I just put myself on autopilot and said, [00:28:00] well, this is the way my life will be and I'll just have to accept it. It just sounds so unfair. Somebody that loves the Lord so much and served in the church and so innocent and being kicked out. Oh, but it sounded like maybe meeting your husband would've been a positive thing for you. How did you guys meet? I actually worked at his office, so I met him there. We dated for about two years, and I just found him to be a kind, loving soul. He was very unassuming. He wasn't arrogant. He didn't, he wasn't a boastful type of person. He didn't like taking credit for things, even though he deserved it sometimes. He was just a good hearted person, and I just, I fell in love with him immediately. I really did. I thought this was a great, great guy. I mean, I will tell you, I have said many times because before I met him, I was on a destructive path. I did not have any self-esteem. [00:29:00] I saw myself just simply as some sex object that, I was only good for that. And so when I met him, he saved my life because he loved me for who I was and showed me that I was worthy. So I've often said to him, you saved my life, and he will respond back with you made mine, and you can't get any better than that. So meeting him was a turning point for me, but I kept a secret from him for 27 years, and I lived in fear that he'd always find out that I'd had this affair with a married man. And I know in my heart that it wouldn't have made a difference to him. But people who've been abused never forget the words, don't ever tell. And I never forgot those words. And I never forgot what the consequences could be if I were to tell someone. Because when my elders found out, they blamed me. And I, I couldn't bear the thought that if I were to tell him. [00:30:00] Somehow he would find fault with me, or I wondered, would he wonder why I didn't feel confident enough to tell him? Would he feel betrayed that I kept a secret? Would he see me differently sexually? All those fears that I had while unfounded were still present in my mind. And so I never could tell him. And I had to do a lot of play acting and pretending, through our married life in the sense that the times I was having trigger factors, I had to hide them. And I know he would've been supportive, but I couldn't see that. Because while trauma affects you at the time of the abuse, it's lifelong. It doesn't leave you. And so I lived with that for 27 years. So did you have. Intimacy issues when you were together? Was that what you're talking about? The triggering? No, I, know a lot of victims do, and that's understandable. I really didn't, because he was so different from my abuser [00:31:00] and I recognized that my abuser was emotionally violent mm-hmm. And physically, he just wasn't loving in any sense of the word. I was simply used for sex. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have that with my husband. And so I could separate that a little bit. But I think the guilt of hiding the secret had an impact on our marriage as far as my able to be intimate with him in an emotional way. I'm really glad to hear that. I, you are not the first person that I've heard that. The victim has hidden a secret from her husband. I passed her and a pastor's wife and her husband did not know. Mm-hmm. Children didn't know, and it was a family member that was the abuser. And I kept telling her, you've got to tell him. Mm-hmm. You know why? It's because, and I was thinking this when I was listening to your, the other shows that you were on. I'm thinking about your children and your grandchildren. If I was abused, [00:32:00] I would be like. How do I keep my children and grandchildren from going through what I just went through, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's an interesting thing because most people would assume that my daughter, I would've been all over it and worried sick every time she left the house. Yeah. But I actually had the opposite, reaction because keep in mind, I didn't see myself as an abuse victim. I saw myself as someone who participated, who willingly went into this relationship and stayed in it willingly, which is not the case when you're abused. There's the control, the manipulation, all of those things that play into keeping a victim in a relationship and they see no way out. So for me, I just assumed I got one bad apple in the whole barrel, that this didn't happen to other people and that I had an affair. But my daughter, who I knew, she would never have an affair with a married man, I just knew that. So I. Sent her on [00:33:00] retreats. I sent her to church camp without fear because again, I'm thinking, okay, this just doesn't happen to other people and this is not something I need to be concerned about with her. However, with my granddaughters, it's totally different because now I understand what really occurred and the damage that can occur when you've been abused. And so with my granddaughters, her mom and dad have talked to them, about good touch, bad touch. And I too have talked about to her, but I've been a little bit more probably detailed about it. Mm-hmm. And as she gets older, these men, the techniques change as you get older and they, after they go after teenage girls, so mm-hmm. Hopefully I'll be able to help her understand, what happens when someone's grooming. I want her to understand her personal space, that if you're not comfortable when someone hugs you, it's okay. That's right. Say I, I don't want you to touch me that way. Mm-hmm. Or say if they don't feel comfortable and we put a lot on kids to do that. 'cause here [00:34:00] we're asking a child to say to an adult, no. Mm-hmm. So it's okay to go to your mother or your mom and say, can you tell so and so Uncle Jimmy or whoever it is, I don't wanna be hugged. So we need to make sure our kids understand that their personal space is their space. And if they don't want someone in that space, it's okay to say no. I also think it's important to tell kids that good people can do bad things. Yeah. Because, as we talked about earlier, our abusers are not strangers. They're not mean people. Mm-hmm. They're usually good people. They're usually people who've given us gifts. They're people who help us. They're people who tell us how wonderful we are. So it's hard for children, even adults, to see this individual who. Who on one side is a good individual who does a lot in the church, who's done all these wonderful things. And so we, we have to tell these kids, just because they're a good person doesn't mean they can't do bad things. And so that's kind of the message I hope to get to my granddaughters that I didn't give to my [00:35:00] daughter. And fortunately she didn't have any issues with church or any, anybody abusing her. But I certainly did not, guide her in the right way in that sense because I just, like I said, I just assumed that I was the only one that this would ever have happened to. Well, I think, I hear a lot in the church that they don't teach sex ed because they don't want the kids to go out and have sex. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these kids are like ignorant as to, what is healthy and what is not proper, yeah. We need to teach 'em that our bodies or are going to respond. They were built that way. God intended us to have feelings. You know, when we are around the opposite sex, that's normal. Mm-hmm. So we need to make sure kids understand. But there are barriers and there are boundaries that need to be taken. But you're absolutely right when we don't talk at it, then we figure it out on their own. And we could, we can all imagine when you're leaving teenagers to [00:36:00] their own devices to figure out things. That's probably not gonna lead in a good spot. No, we have the internet now, which when we, right. When you and I were younger, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have cell phones. No. If you wanted a Playboy magazine, you had to go to that kind of a neighborhood to get something. Yes. You know? Yes. It was a lot more difficult. Yes, absolutely. But too many parents are embarrassed to talk to their children about sex and, you know, everybody listening needs to listen. You need to find a way to talk to them about these things. And one of the techniques that I use with my daughter, just in talking about sex in general, kids don't want to hear their mom and dad talk to 'em about this. So what I did would say, I read a magazine article about this girl who did such and such so that I put it off on something else that's, a non-entity of a person. And I'll say, or Have you ever heard of this? And of course I know she's got a little embarrassed, but I, it opened the dialogue without me coming [00:37:00] out and saying, have you heard of oral sex? Instead, I would talk to her and say, I heard this about this. This is what kids are doing, blah, blah, blah. So you kind of have to find techniques and ways to sneak around it sometimes, but you absolutely need to talk to, because they know it's out there and they're going to experiment. That's just part of being a teenager. Yeah, my parents chickened out. They just gave me a book to read. Same, probably the same book. I got, I forget what it was called. Where did I come from? Or something. It was a cartoon book. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful for that. And, they just, after I finished the book, do you have any questions? Yeah, yeah. I had a lot of, older people that were friends and I would actually go to my older. Senior citizen friends and ask them questions rather than ask my parents. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's more comfortable that way for sure. Like I said, it's not the topic that we like to talk to with our kids and our kids don't wanna hear it, but being uncomfortable is not an excuse not to do that. And in school you get [00:38:00] the basics of the mechanics of it, but then that ends, that's all you get there as well. And that's not as helpful either. Yeah. The sixth grade menstrual cycle, health class. Yeah, exactly. That's it. They separate the girls and the boys. Yeah. We were all really embarrassed and Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Great information. So let's, circle around back to, okay, you've been hiding this secret forever. Mm-hmm. And nobody knows about your past. And then one day you got triggered. So what happened that day? Well, that's the first chapter of my book, and that is one day I was driving to a golf tournament in Tennessee. We live in Cincinnati. I was driving, my daughter was in college. She was playing in a golf tournament. I was driving down there and I was about halfway when I saw an exit sign for the town of Kingsport, Tennessee. And that is the. Town to which my [00:39:00] abuser was sent after he left our church, and it just sent me over the edge. Mm-hmm. All of a sudden I'm thinking, I'm in the town where he lives. Am I close to his house? Am I close to the church where he's now a minister? I mean, even though it'd been 27 years, I thought he was probably still there. I didn't know, but that's what my mind was telling me. I, all of a sudden I felt his presence in the car. I, I could smell him. I could hear him. Oh. I was, it was unbelievable to me what was happening to me. I didn't even know what was happening. I pulled to the side of the road Oh, good. And I sobbed. Yeah. I sobbed for about 20 minutes and I was just trying to figure out what was happening because anytime I had trigger factors before I could manage them, I could control them. I kind of let them happen and then I push 'em back down. Mm-hmm. This one wasn't going back down and I was a mess. I was just an absolute mess. I was able to get through the weekend. I drove back home and all I could think about was, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? [00:40:00] I wanted to stop thinking about him and I couldn't. I spent the next two weeks, really in anxiety. I, my husband would leave for work and I would just walk around the house, wring my hands, trying to figure out why I was feeling the way I was feeling. What was I gonna do with these feelings till at one point I finally decided I was gonna tell my best friend, and I was absolutely petrified to tell her because for the first time in 27 years, I was going to utter the words. I was sexually abused by my youth pastor. And I remember thinking, he's gonna find out and I'm gonna get in trouble. I just, I was 49 years old and I'm still afraid of this man. But I did tell her, it was, it took me a long time to, to get the words out, but I did, she was very supportive. She was very kind. She was patient as she waited for me to tell her. And so that started my journey of healing just by telling that first person. I then told two or three other of my close friends, so the four of us spent [00:41:00] many days and many hours on the screened in porch of one of my friends just letting me talk. Mm-hmm. And being able to express what had happened to me. I wasn't ready to tell all of the story. I mean, there's parts in the book that I won't go into here because they're pretty mm-hmm. Embarrassing and some things that I did. So I wasn't ready to tell them everything, but I told them enough that it helped me start to release what had been done to me. And so that was the first thing that I did, I think. And then the next thing I did, which was so valuable, and I encouraged victims to do it as well, I just read everything I could on clergy abuse or sexual abuse in itself. So I began to learn the terms of grooming, manipulation, gaslighting, and then I could see how he methodically used each one of those things on me to get me to do the things he got me to do, and to stay in that relationship for those five years. And that was huge for me. So [00:42:00] it was, for the first time as I began reading, I understood that I had been abused. Now, it still took me a while to admit that I really was sexually abused because I didn't want that label. I didn't wanna be an abuse victim. And there was a part of me. We all wanna be loved. And so there was still a part of me that I wanted to think that there was some part of him that cared about me, that this wasn't just purely about sex and that he wasn't just using me for his own gratification. And I had to get past that. I had to finally come to terms with, no, this man didn't do the no one who loves you, would do the things he did and ask the things he did of me. So that took me a while, to finally admit, okay, this was an abusive relationship. So I told someone, educating myself, and then I had to learn to forgive myself. I had to let, I had to let go of the guilt [00:43:00] and shame because any guilt and shame belongs squarely on him. This was a man that I should have been able to trust. It was in a place that should have been the safest place on earth for me. And he took advantage of a vulnerable teenager who had, I didn't have a major crisis in my life, but he knew my home life was an upheaval at times. He knew that I didn't see my dad very much. So he used that to against me. And I had to forgive myself for being who I was at the time and being able to respond the way I did for the coping skills I had at the time. Sure. You can look back. I, and I think, why didn't I say this? Why didn't I do that? But I couldn't because of, of the re of the relationship he had created between us. Mm-hmm. I had lost all power. He was in complete control of this relationship, so I had to forgive myself and that wasn't easy either. Then, and I don't know that this is something all victims should do, but I just felt this need [00:44:00] that I needed to confront him. I just felt like I couldn't move past this unless I was able to face him. Now, I had no contact with him for 27 years. I didn't even know if he was still alive, but I hired a private investigator and he found him ministering in a church in Alabama. And so I had my investigator contact him and we set up a time and a meeting that we would meet. And I took my husband, I took my friend who was a counselor and another friend who was at the church at the time. Um, I wanted her at this point. You told your husband at this point, I'm sorry. Yes, that's correct. I, it was probably three months after I told my friends, that I said to him I would like to meet him in his office and talked to him about something and. I was terrified. I don't know how else to say it. I just was so afraid. Not that I needed to be, but I was. And I probably sat there for almost, [00:45:00] I would say, 40 minutes and just cried. I was able to finally get out. I'm okay, the kids are okay, and then I started crying again. He couldn't have been any more supportive, more loving. I remember looking at his face and I said I was sexually abused by my youth pastor, and he didn't. His expression didn't change, and then I said. I was their babysitter and his face just dropped. And for the first time, I could see the pain I was feeling was reflected in his face. It was, I almost wanted to hug him to say, I'm sorry. 'cause I could see how much it hurt him to know that this had been done to me, especially as a baby. I mean, the picture became complete for him once I said that. And so he was very supportive. I think he was worried about me confronting this man, for a couple reasons. But one, I think he was worried that I would be disappointed in his reaction, and that I would be expecting too much of this [00:46:00] person to understand what he did to me and show any kind of remorse, and that I, it would hurt me even more. And one of my fears was that, I was afraid he wouldn't meet me. I was afraid that he was gonna say, no, I'm not gonna meet with you. And my husband said, oh, he's gonna meet with you all right? Because if he doesn't meet with you, you just tell him. Call the church secretary. We'll call every elder. We're gonna, he, somebody's gonna hear your story if he doesn't want to hear it. So he did agree to meet with me. I went down to Alabama and the meeting took place and I said the things that I wanted to say to him. I wanted him to get what he did to me. But he didn't, he never could understand the damage. It was almost as if, okay, I shouldn't have done it and I'm sorry I did it. Okay, now what do you want? It was, get away. You bother me? Yes. And his greatest fear as most narcissist, and I believe he was, narcissistic, but his greatest fear was that I was going to demand that he be removed from the ministry. I mean, that's what he [00:47:00] was most concerned about, how this was going to impact him. And he should have been out of the ministry. So I went to his. Boss. I was told this, and something happened 27 years ago. He, we think he's safe. We're not worried, in spite of the fact that during the meeting he had admitted that there had been multiple occurrences of sexual misconduct throughout his ministry. Not all teenagers, some were most were probably women. And then he said he had gone to therapy because he had been identified as a sexual addict. And I kept thinking, who, what? What world, what world? Does this make sense that a man who has been identified by a psychologist as a sex addict belongs in the ministry? Nope. But here was this church. So I sent a letter to his 11 elders thinking, okay, somebody in this eldership is gonna see this. Is I something's wrong here. Not one responded totally [00:48:00] ignored me. 11 elders totally ignored me. Wow. No worries. So then, I decided to go to his denominational leaders, which were in Indianapolis. And there again, while they were sympathetic to my story and apologize that it happened, they said, we're an independent church. Our churches hire and fire their own ministers. We have no control and if they choose to keep this man, we can do nothing about it. And so what, I was shut down and basically I had no place else to go. I had pretty much. Done everything I could do. And it wasn't my place in the man that he be removed. I expected the church to be, the church was to do the right thing. Exactly. I assumed so naively that once they heard my story and once they understood the background of this man, surely someone would say, this isn't right. But again, keep in mind he's very charismatic. He brings in [00:49:00] people, he brings in money. And to be fair, and probably I'm being a little too gracious, these men are very good at manipulating not only the victim but the congregation as well. They're very good at getting control of the congregation so that they find themselves following this man no matter what he would do. Yeah. And that's basically what happened. There was going to be, I got a four page letter from his boss telling me that, know, I'm going to. Ruin this church if I continue on this path and that I'm going to feel all this guilt because I'm gonna be responsible for the damage that I will do to pe people's spiritual lives. I mean that, it was an incredible, I put the letter in the book, I, because it is so incredibly, hard to believe that someone write that to a victim of abuse. Just So that was What year did that happen? 2004. Okay. So we did have. We did have the internet. Oh, yes. And this was after the Catholic, [00:50:00] church had their, exposure of sexual abuse within their church. So yes, this was, it was out there for sure. This wasn't something that you would think, oh, I can't believe this happened. And again, he had admitted to these past instances. I mean, this wasn't someone who was saying, oh, I don't know what she's talking about. Or, oh, this is the only time it ever happened. He had been in therapy because he was a sexual addict, So he wasn't registered as a sex offender? I guess not. And in my case, at the time of the abuse, the age of consent was 16. So I had no legal recourse because of I was either legally age of consent. Now that has been changed in Ohio. It's now 18. It's now 18, but many states it's still 16. There are several states where the age of consent is 16. Now, the interesting about that is. His contact sexual contact with me was not considered a crime. However, if he had been my high school teacher, it would've been a crime. What, so pastors I know [00:51:00] does not make sense. It does not make a leg of sense. No, it does not. So it, they don't consider him a teacher. They don't cons, they don't, they considered an affair. A mutual. Relationship if he'd been my teacher, that's a different story. So yeah, I had no legal recourse. And that was frustrating. But I couldn't change that. So it was what it was. I just had to accept that he, yes, he belonged in jail. Yes, there's no doubt and should be registered as a sex offender, but I'm not so sure that even if he's registered as a sex offender, these people in Alabama and wherever he is now, would. Even take that as a concern. Well, you know, the millennials now, they'll just, they just post stuff on Facebook and Twitter and call the evening news and they have, yes. News people at their doorstep, right. Ready to mm-hmm. Track this guy's name through the mud. Mm-hmm. But you didn't choose to do that, I guess. No, you know, I'm very careful about naming him in the sense that, part of my story is that I [00:52:00] reconnected with his wife. She actually divorced him after they moved, because again, he committed sexual misconduct. She was 20, I think, at the time, so it wasn't a minor, but that's beside the point. This is a man in a position that, a professional who does not cross boundaries like that. So, to no one surprise, he committed sexual misconduct the third time, so she divorced him. And part of, I guess letting go of some of the guilt that I felt, I wanted to. Connect with her to at least tell her, not that I was responsible for what happened, but how very sorry I was for her pain and suffering as well because she was part of the youth group. I mean, she was there at the church all the time. We sang in the choir together. So it was like I had a relationship with her. Oh wow. To some extent. And of course when, we were found, when he was found out by the elders, she was upset and she of course, didn't wanna have anything to do with me, which is understandable. So I actually think I [00:53:00] also wanted to give her the opportunity to say whatever she felt she needed to say to me if she wanted to. I mean, I didn't know what she was gonna say or react. I thought maybe she'd hang up on me. I didn't know. So I called her one day. My investigator found her phone number and gave it to me, and she couldn't have been any more gracious. I, she never blamed me. She understood as she, as the years went on, what this really was just like I did. She's remarried. She's has a wonderful husband now. And so I visited her several times. We keep in contact. And so part of my not wanting to expose him too much is that it would be hurtful to her. And he does have children. Now. I know that, well, whatever consequences are as a result of this are all on him, but I don't feel the need to add to that. That's not my purpose in speaking out. And so, mm-hmm. I've gone to his church leaders, I've done everything I can to get him removed from the ministry. And nothing, it's just [00:54:00] he's still, I don't know that he's still a pastor, but he still remains in good standing within that denomination to this day. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we have to just let God. Right. Dish out the justice. It may not be in our timeline, it may not be the way that we think it should happen, but Right. He's not gonna get away with this. No. And again, I did my part. Yes. So my conscience is clear and I am able to say I did what I could do and whether or not they removed him, I certainly hope that I maybe put some doubt in some of their minds and maybe questioned their motives in keeping this man. I don't know. But, I feel I did what I could do and I feel good about that. I feel good about that. Absolutely, you should. And what I'm really interested in is, you're trying to keep this stuff from happening to other people, so, I mean, what can we do to prevent some of this stuff? Well, it's [00:55:00] difficult again, because these men are among us as wolves in sheep's clothing, and so they're difficult to spot. But a couple things. I think the first thing I would tell people is if something doesn't seem right. Keep your antenna up. Don't just ignore it or just don't think, oh, well that can't be true because he's the pastor. Mm-hmm. If it's behavior that you wouldn't accept in someone else, or it's something that you would question in someone else, then question it in the pastor or the choir director, whoever it is. Don't be blinded by the person. The persona that they're presenting to you. So that's the first thing I would say is keep your antenna up. The other thing is we, and we're churches, I think are doing better about this, but you've got to have policies in place that say, no, you're not taking a 16-year-old girl on your hospital visit with you. Yes. That's, that's not normal. That's not right. What is she doing going on a hospital visit with you in a car? And of course now we have the texting [00:56:00] and there should be absolutely no texting between a pastor, a youth minister, and anyone in the congregation. And that includes, no, don't forget the meeting for the church luncheon. No, there should be no texting because you, it's too hidden and it's too easily moved to the next step. And that's how it starts. You know, all of the abuse when it's someone you know, it always starts with small things and subtle things. It doesn't, innocent things. Innocent things that, yeah, that, that are innocent. But so that's why, so no texting. Yeah. So put in the policy, those places of, when you take a 10-year-old child to the bathroom, you make sure there's another adult with you. Absolutely. That's for your safety as well as for the child's safety. Mm-hmm. So I, I think we need to be aware. And then I would also say watch for the vulnerable in your, among your church or your group. Watch for the kid that's got issues at home and is looking for a father figure. Be aware that they're going to be more susceptible to someone who's a predator and pay [00:57:00] attention to their cues and kind of keep in touch with them as well in a sense of asking questions and how they're doing and be the kind of a person that they might feel comfortable coming to if something were to happen to them because they're the ones that are gonna be most vulnerable, to a predator. So that's kind of, an overview of what. Maybe a help to try and stop and prevent some of this. Yes, I like lots of video cameras. They're cheap now. You can put a camera, you can hide cameras all over the church facility and Yes. And I think too, talking to this about this issue to the congregation before anything happens, maybe having a person in your congregation who is the go-to person on this topic, who, who's researched what all these grooming and manipulation is so that they are even more equipped to, to notice the signs. So you have a person who's kind of in charge of that topic and then address it to the congregation once a year and say, here's our policy and here's what we expect of our pastors and here's what we would hope you would [00:58:00] do if you notice something. So it just brings it out so that people feel like if there is something that they know is going on or something's wrong, they feel comfortable going to someone about it. Those are all really great tips for leaders and, church members. So what, what if I am listening and I am being subjected to some of this stuff, what should I do? Well, what you need to do and what is the hardest thing to do is to tell someone. Yeah. And it's hard to do because when you're in an abusive relationship, you are being controlled by your abuser. And the narrative is what he is directing. And so he's going to tell you, look, you can tell anybody you want. They're not gonna believe you. And he tells you that over and over again. He's also going to tell you that you are going to be in trouble if you tell anyone. And then there's that problem of you sort [00:59:00] of care about this person. Here's someone that has been helping you, who's been your mentor, and you don't wanna get him in trouble. So with all those dynamics involved, it's very difficult for victims to come forward. But I am telling you, you don't wanna wait the 27 years that I did no. And live with this guilt and the shame and the angst and the anxiety. First of all, it's not worth it. You're not doing anyone any favors, especially yourself, because there is help out there. But they can only help you if you're able to be able to tell someone. And believe me, I understand how difficult that is. It's not easy. Mm-hmm. But I would hope that I hearing my story and others that you will understand that there is help out there and you need to tell someone. 'cause it won't end until you tell someone. And if you need to, you go to someone that you trust. And if you need to, you go outside the church. Yes. You tell someone you know is going to listen to you. [01:00:00] Hey, I tell my listeners, you can call me anytime mm-hmm. And email me and I'm sure you'd say the same thing. Exactly. Reach out to Sandy if mm-hmm. You need somebody to talk to. Mm-hmm. Or you don't know what is the next step I need to take here? Right. It is scary to make First step. It's very scary. Very scary. Absolutely. So then there's the rest of us, those that have not experienced clergy abuse, maybe we're members in the church, maybe we're friends or family. What are some helpful things for us to do to support a victim? Helpful things to say, maybe there's things we shouldn't say, well, that's a yes. First, I would say anytime you're aware of a victim of clergy abuse or anybody who's been abused, whether it's clergy or not, reiterate to that victim that it was not their fault and that there was nothing they could have done, should have done that would've prevented this. And by doing that, you are [01:01:00] telling that person they're free to speak to you. And victims need to hear it over and over again because we do blame ourselves. Children as young as five will blame themselves because they allowed someone to touch them 'cause mommy said not to. And the that guilt in that shame that victims carry, it's difficult to let go of it. So to hear someone say to us, it's not your fault is so freeing. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is. Let them know that you will listen to them without judging them, and you will hear their story without being shocked that you are able to say, tell me everything you need to tell me, or Tell me as little as you wanna tell me. Give them a comfort place to go to talk. And then I would say, and this is difficult for people who have spiritual lives or who are part of the church, be very much aware that things such as prayer and Bible reading and [01:02:00] scripture can be very triggering for those who've been abused in the church. Mm-hmm. So things that you would find comforting like prayer. Can be a very major trigger factor for victims. And so instead of saying to a victim, I'll pray for you, or Can I pray with you? The best thing you could say would be to phrase it in such a way as to say, I understand because of what you've been through, prayer can be difficult. And so I would like to pray for you, but I would completely understand if you don't want to pray or you won't, don't even want me to pray for you. And so you've opened up the door to say to this person, wow, I don't have to feel guilty because I can't pray. You know, when we've grown up in the church and we've been told how wonderful church and prayer and all those things are, we still carry that guilt too because we're no longer connected to God. So to have a person on the outside. Recognize that these can be trigger factors is again, a gift. It's a [01:03:00] gift. So those things I think would be the most helpful when dealing with a person of clergy abuse. And give them time. Don't push forgiveness. Don't push trying to get them back into church. 'cause some victims will never be able to go back to church if you let them find their own pace of time and you do it without judging them. And I know that's kind of hard sometimes for Christians and people in the church because we love the church and we find it to be such a wonderful place and we want this person back in the church. Yes. But it, it may not be the best place at that point for that victim. Such valuable advice. I That is awesome. And again, back to like, when you're talking about the sex education, open up the dialogue, you know? Yeah. Bring it up. Bring it up before they bring it up. Again, I read in the newspaper that this girl was molested by, a gym teacher. You know that, that ha I know that happens. And then let 'em know that if. It is, like you said, allowing that comfort to be able to [01:04:00] talk to someone. I think for me it was important to give my side of the story. No one had a clue that he was emotionally and verbally and physically abusive to me. They saw this as a little love affair and that we had this, magic little love affair. Evil temptress. Yes, exactly. And so I wanted them to know the full story. That was important for my healing too. And they did that. And, they welcomed me back to the church. I went back, I've been back a couple times for, a youth group reunion that we had. So, and that was difficult. But again, I thought that was necessary for me to move forward. I had to let go of my past. I had to figure out, not to forget it, but how was I going to incorpo

Tiff and Monica talk about the fundamental elements to include when onboarding a new team member, and some of them might surprise you. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Welcome back. I am just so happy to have all of you. know there are so many people out there that support the Dental A Team in so many amazing ways. And you guys being here downloading these podcasts and having that little, I know Apple allows the like auto download. I always love that. Cause when I'm on flights, I can just, you know, podcast. But you guys being here.   pushing those through for us, being here to just support who we are, what we do is so truly incredible, whether you're a client, a future client, or someone who's just here to listen and you're like, ⁓ you know, never gonna sign up, we don't really have a preference of how you get to us. We just love that you're here. We wanna deliver all of the most amazing information that we possibly can. You might notice we share a lot of information, a lot of tips and tricks, a lot of like, I don't know, feel like, Monica, I feel like they're like.   secrets, trade secrets, right? And people are like, gosh, I'll just listen to your podcast. I'm like, fantastic, do that, do that. When you're ready for someone like Monica, who I have here with us today, you guys, to be like, I'm gonna push you a little bit further. She's here, we're here, and we're ready to help you get to that next level. And as I said, you guys, this is a truly, truly exciting day for us. I have Monica back on the podcast with me today. I am so excited to have you here, Monica. I know.   Monica Gomez (00:57) ⁓ yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:20) Previously, I've kind of given a good spiel of who you are and how we found you. And we got to record a podcast, if you haven't listened to it yet, about this really hiring tips and strategies. But there's so much to learn about Monica, her coaching style and who she is in that episode. So if you haven't listened to it yet, go do that. And as an introduction today, Monica, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. And I just I'm excited to pick your brain. love I love watching.   I feel like I get to watch the flow of how thoughts come to you and it's just really fun and I love our time together. Thank you for blocking out your morning and being here with me this morning and Monica, how are you? How was your weekend? How's life? How's Monica?   Monica Gomez (02:04) is great and I'm starting off my week with podcasting with you ⁓ and this is so fun. This is my second podcast and I'm so excited to be here. Our first one was really, there was a flow to it, right? It was a ⁓ great little conversation, valuable. We dropped lots of gems, you guys, so go listen to that podcast and I'm excited to be sharing this space again with you, Tish. Thank you for having me.   The Dental A Team (02:19) Yeah.   Thank you, thank you. I do love this and it actually makes me think this is like a little off topic here, but just for a smidgen of time. love the podcast space with you consultant ladies ⁓ on our team because I love that this is a space where I get to, I think I get to share how much I love you guys. Like how much admiration I have, how much I look up to you guys and get to like extract so much.   knowledge and input from you. And I think this is our space of like, truly having some connection time. And we have our one on ones, I mentioned that before, but those are so goal driven and work driven. It makes me think I love relationship and community. And I think that's something that humans are learning again, we're relearning that we need that. I think we lost that for a moment of time here recently and   in the years and we're coming back to that. You kind of don't know what you have until you lose it sometimes and we lost that space. And I think this is our space of true community. We do have our weekly meetings, we have our one-on-ones, we have our data-driven, work-driven time together, but the podcasting space is actually really special to me because I do get to, I get to get to like, want, we get to put you guys out there and I get to just spend this time with you.   And it makes me think you mentioned something on the last podcast that we had recorded together. You mentioned that intentional team time together and that like just clicked. As you're talking, like it clicked for me. This is our intentional time together and instilling that into, infusing that into the workplace. It's really special. And I want doctors and owners and leaders and anyone who's here, dental assistants, treatment coordinators, I don't care who you are. I want you to...   know from the bottom of my heart, this is a really special place and you don't need to go start a podcast unless you want to. But having that intentional time, like coffee time, like go in the break room and have coffee together and talk about your weekend. Like me getting to hear about Monica's family life and Charlie, her puppy, getting to know those pieces of you personally, it changes and it shifts our dynamic. So I wanted to highlight that because as you were speaking, I was like, my gosh, this is   Monica Gomez (04:42) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:55) something we haven't had yet because this is only our second podcast together, but that I know I do have with the other consultants and it just totally clicked for me because we just, think, mentioned that in the last one. So Monica, thank you for being here. Thank you for letting me say all that and for giving me this intentional time today.   Monica Gomez (05:12) Yeah, thanks, Tiff. Yeah, I think ⁓ this time together, we get to peek, a little peek behind the veil, right? And yeah, we do have a lot of connection time. It's structured time, right? But the value of unstructured time is just gold. is, ⁓ it builds trust, it builds ⁓ camaraderie, it builds affinity, it builds ⁓ an endearing, right? An endearing kind of sense of   The Dental A Team (05:20) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (05:42) of viewing the other person in a different light. So yeah, I think this is a powerful, like meaningful time. I agree with you. I agree with everything that you said. This is definitely a special magical space. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:51) Yeah.   Yeah, thank you.   Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And again, if you didn't listen to the last podcast, I know this is the third or fourth time we're saying it. You should. This is kind of I think Monica actually helped me choose today's topics that she wanted to speak on. I think they actually naturally flow together. So I would maybe even listen to this one after the last one ⁓ or listen to this one. And then I don't care which order you do it in, but listen to both of them is my is my point here, because today we really we're going to talk about onboarding.   Monica Gomez (06:05) You   The Dental A Team (06:26) And you can onboard anyone, but I think maybe when we add in onboarding the right team member, because the last podcast we recorded was really how to hire the right team member and hiring with intentionality and meaning behind it. And the onboarding, Monica, I think has to flow off of that. If we're not continuously showing up as the person we wanted to hire, like we talked about in the last one.   If we show up in the interview space and we're like, this is who I want you to be, but then we're onboarding and we're like, meh, meh. We're like, this is boring person and we want somebody who's dynamic and fun and engaging and speaking to the patients, but we're like, not that person. I think it makes a huge difference. So Monica, as you've trained people, as you've onboarded, you've trained practices to do this, what are some key highlights that you like to infuse into the onboarding process?   Monica Gomez (07:15) Yeah, great topic. And I agree, this one goes hand in hand with our previous podcast. know, onboarding traditionally has been very much transactional, right? Here's your cubby, here's what you do, here's where you sit, here's how you answer the phones, right? We've got to move. Well, there's a part of it that has to be transactional because you have to learn, you know, what your job is and, you know, the daily to do's.   But I think if we lead with that, it's a mistake. ⁓ As I mentioned before, and we talked about how the workforce has changed, ⁓ and we're leading with connection and engagement and authenticity and all those components that make us unique, I think we, I really feel that we need to move.   from a transactional place to a transformational or transcendental. ⁓ It's gotta be more about behaviors, right? And how we wrap our arms around like this new person that's joining our little family, right? How would you like to be welcomed into a team that would make you feel welcome and received with open arms and warmth? That's how we have to welcome our new people.   The Dental A Team (08:17) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (08:36) You know, we've invested so much time and energy in interviewing our job post, our, you know, filtering our candidates, interviewing, that whole hiring process, offer letter, the whole nine yards. And then we just throw them in, sink or swim. We've got to add, we've got to be intentional and we've got to add more value to the onboarding piece because, you know, people sometimes are left thinking like, gosh,   The Dental A Team (08:54) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (09:05) this is not the place that I thought it was gonna be, right? Like make it the place that you post it on your job ad, right? Like create, you get to be the creator. You're the co-creator, right? This is your platform. Like what do you wanna create for your new people, right? And I think transaction.   It's always part of our industry and in the workforce, right? There is a transactional piece to working. ⁓ But again, that humanist, right? And so one great tip, I'll start with one tip and I'll turn it over to you, Tiff. ⁓ One great tip is have a welcome packet for your team, right? A t-shirt, their name tag, little, you know, if you picked up little sprinkles of who they are and what they like in the interview, like,   The Dental A Team (09:51) Mm.   Monica Gomez (10:02) put together a nice little welcome basket for them, a pen post-it, a nice little saying. I think that's, wow, I mean, that's super impactful on their first day, right? Like, welcome to the team and have everybody go around at Morning Huddle and just give a little shout out as, you know,   The Dental A Team (10:11) Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (10:29) how valuable it is to have a new team member. I think that's super simple and important.   The Dental A Team (10:36) Yeah, I love that. think you hit on something really important there. It's really that feeling of being welcomed, coming into a new space is, I mean, we don't even like going to a party unless we know, a dinner party, unless we know everybody who's gonna be there, right? We're like, I only know two people. Like, is that enough? Right? I got a text from a friend the other day that was, know, or not the other day, it's been a bit, but for, you know, Halloween. And then she's like, I gotta go to this thing with my husband. And like, I don't know anybody. And I was like, okay, like this is, we're all coming into this dinner party not knowing.   anybody else, even if you've done working interviews, you still don't know them. So I love that really just toning in on the personal piece and the relationship, because if you can have a relationship with them, you can, you know, build that camaraderie just from the get go. I think they actually retain information and onboard quicker as well. So I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (11:25) It's hard being an adult, you know? It's hard being an adult. And I think   in the practice, you know, just circling back to our topic on our previous podcast, fun is really important. We forget to have fun as adults, you know? And gosh, you know, think of it like you're in the sandbox again. See through young eyes, see through young eyes. Put those lenses on and just remember what it is to just play in the sandbox.   with your friends, right? And have like that pureness of intention and that pureness of heart and spirit. I think it's just easier when you can kind of connect to that space to welcome others in. And they'll say, I love that you're here. Welcome to the team. How can I make your week and your integration easier? I think that's a gem right there. That's...   The Dental A Team (11:54) Yeah. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Monica Gomez (12:21) super valuable for the person receiving and also for the person that's delivering.   The Dental A Team (12:26) I agree. I was thinking,   as you said, you said it's hard being an adult And I thought, yeah, I remember just being like, do you want to swing? Like, there's two, like, do you want to swing with me? Like, that's, we don't do that anymore. Yeah. It was easy. Now it's like, we go to, we're in the same Pilates class 10 times and I'm still like, do I talk to you? Do I not talk to you? And it's like, goodness gracious. So yeah, like just, do you want to swing? Like just, let's just have fun with it. I love that. ⁓   Monica Gomez (12:33) Yeah.   It's easier to fix ones.   The Dental A Team (12:51) And so Welcome Packet is beautiful. if you guys like put it together, it could even be like ⁓ a welcome note card. Like, hey, excited to have you. Like everybody, we write thank you cards to our patients or we write condolence cards or happy birthday or happy anniversary. Like, congrats on your wedding. We write these cards and I've seen them in multiple practices. So I know a lot of people do them. You pass them around to all the team members or the happy birthday for the team members, right? Everybody writes on the card and it's like this little message.   You could do it as simply as that. Like, hey, Monica's starting on Monday, guys. Like, it's Thursday. Let's wrap this up. Let's get this like welcome card together and a candy bar or a little ⁓ bouquet of flowers, like four carnations. Like, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be robust or like over the top. Just speak to who you are and who they are. I love that. And Monica, something you said was we were kind of prepping for this was you don't have to have it all together. And I loved that because we've saw many podcasts on   Monica Gomez (13:32) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (13:48) operations manual and it's fantastic. And I agree with an operations manual and practices come to us and they're like, Monica, we need an operations manual, help us build it. It's like, okay, yes. And it's super cool. Also, it's not a requirement. You can onboard, you can train, you can have them help you build the operations manual while you're training. Don't hold yourself back from onboarding someone successfully.   Monica Gomez (13:59) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:15) because you feel like things are missing and I love that you said that. Now, on that same aspect, a job description, super simple, to put together a job description of who they are, how they show up and what their targets are per position and then build off of that to say like, hey, in the first week, two weeks, 30 days and then kind of go from there. Now, implementally, how do you build the action out for...   for teams like that, because I'm an aggriance. I love an operations manual. I think it's great, but it's not end all be all. And just because we get through an operations manual and your consulting journey does not mean you're done. You're set for success and nothing's ever going to happen. I think there's a lot of, we could go on a tangent about operations manuals. We won't today. But how do you do that with your practices you're working with?   Monica Gomez (15:05) Yeah, I mean, I think people ⁓ absorb information and they learn differently. And I think it's really important that we hit on all three things. It's auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. The operations manual or the training manual is valuable, Because it's a resource that you can go to to reference and get a refresher. ⁓ But that shouldn't be your onboarding technique, right? That's like, OK, here you go. Here's the written. ⁓   The Dental A Team (15:30) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (15:34) proof or reference book of what you already learned, right? It is the outcome of your training. ⁓ I think, you know, onboarding can be simple and we make it complicated because everything has to be in writing nowadays and there's value to that. ⁓ But really your team, the biggest piece of ⁓ an employee staying within those 90 days is how we onboarded them.   The Dental A Team (15:48) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (16:03) Did we just give them manual or written instructions and say, okay, here it is, go do it? Or did we say, okay, this week, part of your onboarding is that you're gonna spend time with every single person in this practice in the various roles, including the doctor. You're gonna sit in and listen to the exams and the x-ray take and the hygienist. And you're really gonna understand all the makings of this practice.   it's important that we understand everyone's role and how we contribute to the entire team. So I always recommend that you hire someone and the first three days, break it up. Three, by the way, is a magical number for me. I love everything in series of threes. So three is easy to remember, three things versus five or even four, right? So three days in each role.   And have that person that's learning write down the most impact. What did you learn in these three days sitting with a hygienist? Or what do you want to know more about? This will spark their curiosity. Don't give them a script. Allow them to of grasp the topics and let their curiosity ⁓ be the lead. Take the lead on.   Here's what I want to know more about, or I don't really understand this, or gosh, I didn't know that, right? ⁓ And that goes for experienced employees or people that are new to the industry, right? That's my recommendation. Allow them to spend three days in every single role, like the journey of onboarding, right? Like, I think it's super valuable. And then... ⁓   The Dental A Team (17:32) Yeah.   Fisher.   Monica Gomez (17:51) Again, they could be kind of co-creating your manual with you because what they bring back, the knowledge that they bring back, chances are somebody else is going to have that same curiosity or those same questions, right? Yeah, I think that's a really simple tip. And those also that feedback could be part of your 30, 60, 90 day growth plans. And here's what you're really great at, right? I always like to look at   The Dental A Team (18:04) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (18:22) Think about the growth plan like a sandwich, right? Like there's the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so here's where you are, right? ⁓ Here's where, ⁓ actually, here's your role. Here's where you currently are, and here's where we would like for you to be. And like, what are the steps to get there, right? That should be part of your growth plan, your 30, 60, 90 day growth plan, along with the job description. Yeah, I think, you know,   using the job description like you mentioned as a tool, right, to guide people and also for us to understand like, what are they really great at? What are they really proud of, you know, in this job role? And what do they want to know more about? I think ⁓ I ⁓ one great way to kind of get familiar with someone's knowledge, experience and their desire to grow or learn more about is take the   The Dental A Team (19:03) Thank   Monica Gomez (19:20) the skills and ability portion of the job role and say, tell me three things that you're really great at, that you're really proud of, that you just are an expert in. And then three things that ⁓ you wanna know more about, not weak, right? Things that you don't, let's take that, negative verb out of it, just say three things that you're curious about or three things that you wanna sharpen your skills at. That tells you a lot about their qualifications. ⁓ And I'm really an advocate of ⁓   The Dental A Team (19:22) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yes.   Monica Gomez (19:49) eliminating the over-educating and over-matching. This exercise is a great way to kind of level set who your person is, like what's in their brain, right? Like, are you curious about? So I think that's part of like the co-creation of the onboarding and the collaboration, right? This is a partnership, we're in this together. What can I do to help you help me?   The Dental A Team (20:01) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (20:15) and stay. think it's intentional and it is ⁓ structured in a way that's unstructured.   The Dental A Team (20:28) Yeah, for sure. And I think that what you're saying there that co-creation also makes me think of ⁓ like collaborating and co-creating with the people who are going to be doing the training. So if you're not the one who's going to be, if you're an office manager and you're not training this person hands on 100 % of the time, then enlist the team members too. So if this person's job is   I don't know, front desk check-in and she or he has this laundry list of 20 different things that they've got to learn in the series of these 90 days or 30 days or however long you parcel that out for who's helping with those things and allow them to co-create too. And I think what you're saying, the three days, it's like, great, you're learning to answer the phones and confirm appointments. That's what you're doing for three days. You're answering the phone. So you're answering the phones and you're delivering that   patient to whomever, right? You're transferring that patient to whomever they need and you're doing confirmation calls for three days. And then stack on top of that, anything, something you said there, the co-collaborating and the kind of doing it together, but also then enlisting outside perspectives to see what flows together. Because a lot of times our job doesn't necessarily start to end flow in this perfect, beautiful space. Sometimes it's like,   well, I'm doing phones, but I'm doing emails, and I'm doing phones, but I'm checking patients out. And those are very like stark contrasting pieces. And so if we're like jumping them around or trying to do it in what a day might look like, that's very confusing. And it's overwhelming because your brain doesn't operate in that way. You can and you will and you will multitask and they will get it. But when you're learning, you've got to learn succinctly in a flow that makes sense. So you can't start with   Monica Gomez (22:02) and overwhelming.   The Dental A Team (22:17) checking a patient out if you also want them to be doing confirmation calls. Like you've got to find, like you said, your start, your middle and your end and making sure that those pieces flow together and having that outside perspective I think can definitely help. Something you mentioned was those like check-ins. So you're having those conversations with them. So that in itself right there, you guys, if you're not, I want you to pull these action items out too because that in itself, that's an action item. So make sure you've got job descriptions.   make sure you've got some semblance of flow on the pieces that they're responsible for, and then you're checking in with them. And I think frequent check-ins are really smart. We do them in our company with onboarding and we continue them kind of as long as we possibly can forevermore. We do these check-ins because I wanna know where they're at. don't, not necessarily like, did you do this thing? I wanna know like Monica, where are you at today? ⁓   Personally, who are you and where are you at today? Like are we still in alignment because that's the space I think Especially being new to a team. I'm not gonna say I'm not always gonna say hey, I Didn't get this or hey, I need help or hey I'm falling behind or I feel overwhelmed or this is a lot because I don't want to look like I can't do it But if my manager or my lead is like, hey check in how are things going? And I'm like, I think I'm getting it. I think I need more time on this   That's way better than being like, I'm overwhelmed. Like that feels better to me to be like, cool, there's space to have a conversation about this. I'm not complaining or feeling weak or looking as though I can't accomplish something. You are giving the space as a check-in to just be like, hey, tell me where you're at. Okay, great, take the space, take the time, go learn it. Or if I need to show you again, I can.   Monica Gomez (24:06) Yeah, I love that. I love everything that you said. think, ⁓ you know, words create our story, right? And so if we're asking, like, how's it going? ⁓ Are you struggling with anything? ⁓ Our minds automatically go to that negative place, right? So you get to be the creator of the script.   Right. And so if we're saying, Hey, by the way, I heard you answering the phone start, like, listen for the good stuff, right? The good behaviors. Gosh, you were amazing. Greeting that patient. my gosh. I am so proud of you. You are totally getting this and you know, how's everything else going? Right. If you start with that excitement and something positive, that person's already in that positive mindset and it's all about mindset. Right. And if we're concerned that they're not getting it, they're not going to get it.   assume that they are, assume that they are getting it. So gosh, you are, I know you're doing amazing. Tell me all the good stuff. Start.   The Dental A Team (25:08) Yeah, assume good intent, right? Always. We see that constantly. Assume   good intent. I think, Monica, you saying this right here makes me think.   Relationships are relationships, I say that all the time. They just look a little bit different. Like my relationship with Erin is a little bit different than my relationship with you, but my communication skills are gonna be super, they're gonna be the same with the right words, right? So I'm not gonna, communication is communication. And so what we do is we say, okay, this is how you sell a treatment plan. This is how you project to your patients to get them to schedule. And you always start with a positive. You don't ask for a review by saying,   how did everything go today? You say like, oh my gosh, that seemed, you how amazing was your appointment today? Like you're infusing these words in there to get the mindset, but then we don't copy and paste that always into everything that we do. And I think how you show up for anything is how you show up for everything. So show up for your team the same as you're expecting your team to show up for your patients because that's going to translate. And if you're like, oh, it seemed like a,   Gosh, today was a chaotic day, how did you do? It's always chaos, we're in dentistry. Dentistry is chaotic, your days are gonna be crazy. Life is chaotic, you're right, it's always going to be crazy. So saying that, gosh, was, woo, that was a rough day. How are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I'm feeling like I made a really bad decision coming here. I think you're spot on is my point there. So that was beautiful, thank you.   Monica Gomez (26:21) Yeah. And life is chaotic. Period, right? Life is chaotic.   Yeah. And, you know, I when employees share difficult, like a difficult day, you know, like, ⁓ I had a ⁓ client last week share that their new hire said, ⁓ gosh, maybe we shouldn't, you know, ⁓ schedule two crowns back to back because that was really hard. And, you know, my back was hurting. And so, ⁓ you know, the doctor was like, she's already complaining. I'm like, well, okay. Well, how did you respond? Right. Because   The Dental A Team (27:11) Yeah, yeah.   Monica Gomez (27:12) Because, I mean, she's delivering something that's important. She's sharing and she feels comfortable enough to say, hey, that was really hard. That's really what she's saying. That was really hard, right? And so, you know, again, one of my favorite sayings is, you know, get curious, not furious, right? Don't look at it with the negative lens. It's a great way for you to validate, like, how important it is to be seen, and valued, right?   The Dental A Team (27:41) I agree.   Monica Gomez (27:42) And she was opening up because she wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. Like she wanted to be seen. Gosh, I like did those two crowns back to back. My back is hurting me. Are you even valuing that I sat there in fact, right? Even though they could have swapped off with another assistant, but she, you know, she followed him. And so, you know, and my advice was like, you should number one acknowledge that she's sharing, right?   The Dental A Team (27:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (28:11) Thank you so much for sharing that. You're right, that was kind of hard. Let's talk about it as a team tomorrow. Let's find ways to alleviate that when this does happen, right? I mean, the patients wanted to start, like they're ready. Let's do it, right? But where were your other team members? Like, let's talk about this. And so seen, and valued. If you can make anyone new, ⁓ a new employee, an existing employee,   your legacy employees, if you can make them feel and create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, that's huge. That's like you, you will, your team will love you, your patients will love you because again, it's that invisible kind of energy that's flowing through your practice, right? That creates that great space for employees to wanna stay.   The Dental A Team (29:02) I agree. I totally agree. Thank you, Monica. I think this was ⁓ a really, this is just full of so many gems and ⁓ I love the actual pieces of job description, kind of the, I love your three days, spend three days on it and really just making sure you go through that job description. Look at the to-dos of that position.   Enlist the team to help you. Whoever's gonna be helping to train. I had people specific on my team that were like, these are the things you just, you're stellar at and it's gonna be easy for you to train these things. They trained those. So it doesn't have to be one person. It can be whatever you want it to look like. Just make sure it's built out. You have a plan. Preschedule check-ins. I always make sure we preschedule check-ins and you guys check in with yourself too. think Monica, you gave some really wonderful tips on really making sure that we're showing up the way that we should be.   or the way we want people to show up and really just gut checking and making sure that those things are there. And I loved this. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Thank you for flowing off of it. This was perfect. This was divine. Thank you for helping set up this flow of podcasting today and for just bringing your insight and your wisdom and your years of experience of things that you've seen work and ideas. So thank you, Monica.   Monica Gomez (30:16) Thanks, thanks, Tiff. This is definitely a gem for me. I have so much to share and so much, I love sharing, I love brainstorming, I love sharing what works ⁓ and all the knowledge that we, all of us have, right? This is a beautiful space for us to, you know, share that. And this was so fun. Thanks for inviting me and everyone.   The Dental A Team (30:22) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (30:42) Go out and be fabulous and don't forget to have fun. Have fun.   The Dental A Team (30:47) Yes, I love that.   Thank you. Yes. Go be fabulous. That is like Trish's famous words. I love that she says that. always, I know it always makes it just like, yep, I will. Okay. No, questions. So I love it. Go be fabulous. I agree. Drop us a five star review. Let us know what you thought about this. Let us know what onboarding tips you guys have. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com is an easy place to find us and.   Monica Gomez (30:53) So these are the things.   The Dental A Team (31:10) get recommendations or share your tips and tricks. We really do love that. And also we're on Instagram and Facebook, all of those places. So watch us there. Watch out for us there. Thursdays, once a third Thursday, we have webinars. You guys, we're everywhere. So if you're only following the podcast, check us out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, TheDentalATeam.com. We've got all of it listed there as well. Go find us, follow us and listen for more amazing tips from Monica and the rest of the consulting team. Thank you guys and go be fabulous.   Monica Gomez (31:39) you  

Si quieres conquistar tu 2026, no lo puedes improvisar.  Tienes que entrenarlo.   En este episodio te comparto MAP, una herramienta mental práctica y poderosa para responder al estrés con claridad, enfoque y fortaleza. El estrés no es el problema: el problema es enfrentarlo sin dirección.  MAP es un mapa para esos momentos en los que la presión sube y la mente se nubla: M – Míralo: observa el estrés sin huir ni negarlo. A – Apodérate: entiende qué te importa y por qué este reto está aquí. P – Poténcialo: transforma la presión en energía, acción y crecimiento. Desde la neurociencia hasta experiencias reales de liderazgo y alto rendimiento, descubrirás cómo el estrés puede convertirse en un aliado para entrenar la versión de ti que necesitarás para conquistar tu 2026. Este episodio es para ti si: Quieres entrar al 2026 con más claridad mental y menos reactividad Sientes presión por crecer, liderar o tomar decisiones importantes Estás lista para dejar de huir del estrés y empezar a entrenarte con él Conquistemos juntas este 2026.  ¡Feliz Año!

It's been another interesting year in the world of personal finance and macroeconomics. As we look ahead to 2026… well, who really knows what's coming? I'll be sharing my own take—and making a few predictions—in an upcoming episode. What's hard to ignore is just how unusual this moment in history is. We're coming off COVID. We went through a rapid rise in interest rates, and now a pullback. Tariffs are back in the conversation. There are a lot of moving parts, and as usual, the consensus hasn't exactly nailed it. Almost every expert was convinced tariffs would push inflation higher. I expected at least a temporary bump—some transient inflation while markets adjusted. Then the CPI report came out at 2.7%. That's a lot closer to the Fed's 2% target, and nearly half a percentage point lower than expectations. Clearly, something else is going on. At the same time, GDP came in at around 4.3% growth. That's real strength. Inflation is coming down, growth is strong, and while the labor market is still a little murky, there's no question there's underlying momentum in the system. Investors haven't quite felt it yet. It's been a sticky environment. But my sense is that we're getting closer to a shift—more liquidity, more money in the system, and markets that may start moving meaningfully again. Of course, we'll see how it all plays out. For this episode, my producer Phil pulled together some of the highlights from the show in 2025—a look back at the conversations and ideas that stood out in a year when the data kept surprising just about everyone. I hope you enjoy it. And again, happy holidays. Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year. Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI and may not be 100% accurate. If you notice any errors or corrections, please email us at phil@wealthformula.com.  Welcome everybody. This is Buck Joffrey with D Wealth Formula Podcast, coming to you from Montecito, California and, uh, want to wish you, first of all, a happy holidays. Merry Christmas, happy new Year, all that. And, uh, yeah, it’s been, uh, it’s been another, uh, another interesting year in the world of personal finance and macroeconomics is what, what we talk about on the show. And as we look forward to 2026, gosh, who knows what’s gonna happen, right? Uh, well I’ll give you my take in, uh, show coming up where I’m gonna make some predictions. However, you know, it’s just, it, it, it’s just such an unusual time in, in history. Um, as we kind of look at. Coming off of COVID and having those high interest rates and then coming, uh, coming down and then having Trump elected and now the tariffs and well, gosh, who knows? Right? I mean, just for example, you know, almost every expert was pretty much guaranteeing that inflation would go up because of the tariffs. I mean, even if it was transient, which frankly I thought it was gonna be transient, meaning that there was gonna be a bump in inflation. For a period of time until there was a readjustment after tariffs. Well, TPI comes up most recent CPI is actually 2.7. You know, that’s much closer to the fed target of 2%. And, um, 2.7 was, you know, I think, uh, almost a half, half percentage point less than the expected, uh, CPI, uh, report. So that, that’s obviously something else is going on there. And then. GDP numbers came out and we had a four handle. It was like 4.3, I believe, GDP. So we’ve got incredible growth. We’ve got decreasing inflation. The labor market is still, I know, a little unclear, but it seems like there’s a lot of strength in this market. Of course, it’s really sticky investors. We haven’t quite felt that strength yet, but I do think you need to start anticipating. That markets are gonna come back pretty heavy, uh, with increased liquidity, uh, and a lot of money in the system. But we shall see, uh, this show. What we’re gonna do here is, uh, my, uh, producer Phil put this together, but it’s basically some of the highlights of, uh, the show in, in 2025. So hopefully you enjoy it. Uh, and again, happy holidays. Merry Christmas, new Year. And we’ll be back right after these messages. Wealth Formula banking is an ingenious concept powered by whole life insurance, but instead of acting just as a safety net, the strategy supercharges your investments. First, you create a personal financial reservoir that grows at a compounding interest rate much higher than any bank savings account. As your money accumulates, you borrow from your own. Bank to invest in other cash flowing investments. Here’s the key. Even though you’ve borrowed money at a simple interest rate, your insurance company keeps paying. You compound interest on that money even though you’ve borrowed it at result, you make money in two places at the same time. That’s why your investments get supercharged. This isn’t a new technique, it’s a refined strategy used by some of the wealthiest families in history, and it uses century old rock solid insurance companies as its back. Turbocharge your investments. Visit wealth formula banking.com. Again, that’s wealth formula banking.com. How do you approach the process of identifying stocks that are maybe best suited for consis consistent cash flow? Or do you just pick the stocks that you like and, and create the cash flow? Or are, you know, fundamental metrics that maybe you prioritize? Yeah, the, the, the first thing to determine. I think real estate investors understand this is if I were to invest in real estate, I’m gonna determine whether I’m gonna be a flipper, or I’m gonna try and buy low forced depreciation, sell high. Or if I’m gonna be a cashflow investor where I might invest in syndication, or I am, I’m gonna have tenants in property management. And the same is true with stocks. Most people start off by thinking about price rather than cash flow. They think about buy low, sell high, like a house slipper, and that’s, that’s less tenable in stocks because in real estate, if I buy low and sell high, I can do things to force appreciation. I can renovate, I can get new management, I can put in new appliances. I, there’s things I can do to force appreciation. But once a person buys a stock, there’s absolutely nothing you can do to make the stock price go up. But if you take a a, if you think of it like a real estate investor. You think about it like owning a business where the priority, as you mentioned these metrics, the priority is, Hey, what kind of cashflow will this produce be in terms of dividends and in my case, option premiums. And so some of the key metrics is, you know, if I, I’m basically buying a financial statement, same as real estate. You know, I, I, I, it is just a little different numbers in real estate. I wanna know what the net operating income is. In stocks, I might wanna know what the EBITDA is ’cause they’re essentially looking at the same types of things in real estate. I wanna know what the cap rate is in stocks. I wanna know what the PE ratio is, which is just the same number inverted. They just put the price on the top instead of the bottom. To me, I don’t see a difference between real estate and stocks, uh, in that they’re both a business or they charge someone for a good or a service. And there’s either cashflow there at the end of it or not. If people take a cash flow approach, they can begin to build on their passive income. And that contributes to that blueprint we mentioned earlier to get ’em outta the route race. So if you take a Warren Buffet approach, the most important number in that business is operational cash flow or earnings. Meaning does what they do, their operation. You know, you walk in there, a nice operation you got going here, you know, trucks are moving and you know, products are being built and shipped and, and nice operation. If they’re earning money, that means that’s the life flood of the business. That means it’s got a good moat. That means it’s pretty protected and that allows them to do two things for me. Number one is a dividend, which is exactly the same thing as a distribution in real estate. Uh, there is no difference, uh, in a syndication. I have a whole bunch of investors I’ve joined with where you have a share of this project and when the earnings come out, they distribute the, the distributions among the share shareholders. Same is true with stocks. They take the earnings, uh, we call it a payout ratio, and they take a, a, a significant amount of that money and they pay it in a dividend, same as a distribution. But what I do that’s a little bit unique buck is, uh, is I also have the options market on my side. Where I can use options to control risk, uh, to get guarantees where I can buy and sell, but even more importantly, I can offer, uh, and get paid for making promises to people. This is very much a Warren Buffet deal where it, it brings a significant increase to my monthly cash flow beyond the dividend, up to three, two and three times. Uh, the amount of money, two to 300% more cash flow. By being involved in the options market and that’s, that’s a nice secret sauce. The yield max Tesla option income, ETF, which is TSLY. And basically what it does is. Is it just does a series of longs and shorts and, and then generates what looks like to be kind of a, a ridiculous amount of, uh, dividend, uh, per, per month. So what are we missing here? What, what’s, well, you’re, you’re basically hiring those guys to mow your grass. It’s just like any other mutual fund or any other. They’re doing something you could absolutely do by yourself and not pay them a fee. There’s two cultures. There’s the advice culture and there’s the education culture and the advice culture. People say, look, I don’t wanna learn anything. Just gimme the advice. Well, you’ll pay for that in fees. And the problem with doing that is if you really listen to Warren Buffett, which 1% is enormous. Because in the wealth blueprint that we do for people, we use compounding. We use the compounding calculator to see what we’re gonna need. You drop that 1%, you give up 1% of your compounding powers as an investor over your life, it, it wouldn’t seem like 1%, but Buffet knows the truth. It’s enormous. So yeah, absolutely there are ETFs and there are funds that will do exactly what I do or what I teach people to do, but we have some advantages in doing it yourself because risk is about control. I trust myself more than I trust those guys any day of the week. And like I say, I’m doing this by month, so yeah. But it’s legit. How do you even make predictions? And second of all, I mean presumably you still have some forecasts over the next, uh, 12 to 24 months, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about that. Our methodology lends itself to times of uncertainty like this, and that’s the benefit of really relying on the leading indicators that we have. Now. We do have to take a little bit of a different approach. We have to look at data in a lot higher frequency today. You know, a lot of the data you get from government sources or quarterly data, monthly data, but we’re having to track weekly trends with the ever-changing environment that we find ourselves in. So we’re not surprised by the time any monthly or quarterly data comes out. The level of uncertainty that we’re dealing with is certainly unprecedented. I share an index each day, um, and we are three times more uncertain today than we were at the height of the pandemic. You know, put that in perspective, right? Yeah. So we do have to adjust, um. The, the way that we’re looking at data with higher frequencies, we also have to rerun a lot of these correlation analysis. Every single time we get a new data point to see are these lead times becoming more condensed? Do we have to make adjustments in our models as a result to maybe data reacting quicker than it might have in the past? So those are some of the ways that we’re, we’re continuing to evolve in these interesting times we live in. This relates to our forecast. Our team expected some weakness in the first part of this year, and, and we knew that coming in with the, with the tariffs that were proposed during President Trump’s campaign, we did have a weak first quarter GDP number forecast. Our team was 0.1% off of nailing that first quarter GDP number, so they were right on the money there. Uh, we were very impressed with that, but we do expect a sluggish first half of the year. We call it the recovery phase of the cycle. What we mean by that is our growth rates are still building momentum, but are still negative year over year. You know, ITR. Really known for its emphasis on leading indicators. So which of the leading indicators you guys rely on the most when and, and I guess which are flashing red or green right now? I’ll give you one of each. Uh, yeah. The one we’re in right now, we look at the purchasing managers, index isms, purchasing managers index. Now we look at at on a one 12 basis. What I mean by that is we compare the most recent month, the same month one year ago. The reason we look at it on that basis is it gives us 12 month lead time into the future when you correlate it to the economy. That index was recently rising until we got the most recent month of data, and then it dropped back down. So that is giving us the mixed signal of, hey, we need to be a little bit more concerned about the prospect for growth moving forward. Now the opposite is true when we look at an indicator called capacity utilization. What Capacity utilization measures, it’s about an eight month lead time to the economy. So still a nice view into the future, but what it measures is output over capacity, and that actually continues to improve meaning. And again, really all that means on a simple level is we’re utilizing more of our existing capacity, so we’re getting busier. If we look at the consumer side of inflation that the Fed’s more concerned about in terms of setting policy, we have inflation essentially flat this year from where we are today. Now, if you look at the CPI, it’s at 2.8%. Our projection for the end of the year is 2.8%. We don’t see inflation coming down much at all. As a result of that, that’s why you’re seeing Chairman Powell back off being able to cut rates and is holding these rates steady because he sees these higher inflation risks as well. And so from our perspective, it’s very unlikely you see any meaningful interest rate decline this year. Yeah. Now again, the second quarter, GDP number can have an impact on that. We do see a very weak second quarter chairman Powell alluded just a couple of days ago to some slack in the labor market. Maybe you can get a quarter point if we have a really weak second quarter, quarter point cut, but it just seems very unlikely given how persistent inflation has been. And so we tell all of our clients, prepare for interest rates to be relatively flat this year, and prepare for interest rates to rise through the balance of the second half of the decade. It’s not just tariffs, it’s employment costs, it’s electricity costs, it’s material costs. There’s a lot more driving higher inflation than just tariffs. What macroeconomic trends are you watching right now with regards to how they’re shaping the markets today? I think there’s really three things right over the long run. They’re gonna debase the currency, that’s gonna be a persistent tailwind for all liquid, uh, assets, including stocks. Bitcoin gold and bonds. And then I think that you also are going to have a, uh, very interesting dynamic around all these tariffs, uh, and kind of the administration’s economic policies. And then the third thing is that there is a whole technology, uh, trend to, uh, pay attention to. Uh, obviously innovation is very deflationary. Uh, we’ve got, you know, things from humanoid robots to rockets to gene editing, to uh, to crypto and everything in between. And so I think those three things really tell the story of where, uh, markets potentially go in the future. When I grew up, um. S and P 500 was the benchmark. There’s a risk-free rate in bonds. I believe that my generation and younger sees Bitcoin as the benchmark. And so, uh, it’s very simple. If you can’t beat it, you gotta buy it. And I think that there’s institutions around the country who are realizing they can’t beat the benchmark and therefore they will end up buying it. And really, to me, that is, uh, maybe the most interesting. Part of the entire conversation is that Bitcoin obviously has risen significantly on a percentage basis in appreciation. Bitcoin has kind of infiltrated every corner of finance, but most importantly is it has transitioned from a high risk, you know, kind of asymmetric type asset to now it’s becoming the hurdle rate uhhuh. And if you’re the hurdle rate, you suck up a lot of capital. Yeah. Because there’s not a lot of people who can beat you. And I think that that is a very powerful position for Bitcoin to be in. And that’s how you infiltrate into, uh, the institutional portfolios. Bitcoin will stop going up. When they stop printing money. I don’t think they’re gonna stop printing money, so I don’t think Bitcoin’s gonna stop going up. That’s kind of one huge component of this. The second thing is that Bitcoin is very unique in that the higher the price goes, the less risky it is deemed by the largest pools of capital. Mm-hmm. And so usually, you know, if NVIDIA’s at a $4 trillion market cap, people like, oh, it might be overvalued there. A lot of debate. Right. Bitcoin if it was at a $4 trillion market cap would be way less risky than it when’s at 2 trillion. And so there is a lot of structural advantages, both from the legacy world but also from the Bitcoin market that I think will continue to lead to these large institutional capital pools. Uh, allocating some percentage. And the beauty is right now we have very small adoption in that world. Uh, it’s only gonna get bigger. It’s only gonna get more normalized. And I think that one of the parts people really underestimate when it comes to Bitcoin is how important time passing is. You know, if you think back, uh, there is not anyone under the age of 16 that has lived their life without Bitcoin existing. If you’re keeping large chunks of money in savings account, paying less than 1% or any percent less than inflation, you’re bleeding wealth every single day. It feels safe. It looks safe, right? ’cause the numbers may not be moving nominally but it, but it’s not safe. It’s a bucket with a hole in the bottom and you don’t even notice until it’s almost empty. That’s why the wealthy don’t hoard cash. They own assets. They own assets that inflate with inflation. If you can’t beat ’em, join them. They buy things that grow in value as dollars shrink because they understand the system. They don’t fight it, they ride it. So you’ve said many times that the current monetary system is broken and headed for reckoning. So from your perspective, what are the core flaws in the system right now and how do we get here? Well, probably the largest and most obvious underlying flaw in the monetary system is the fact that the federal government just can’t balance its budget. And so they have to take on debt to cover the deficit that they run and that deficit. Well, you know, over the course of the last 20 years, it’s gone up and down. More recently, it’s gone mostly up and, uh. We just came through a period where, you know, it was reemphasized to everybody. Just what a problem this is. Because as you’ll recall, when Trump was first elected, they were talking about those, the Department of Government Efficiency and cutting expenses and you know, maybe 2 trillion or 1 trillion. Of course, then Elon got frustrated and left and the numbers have come down and you know, Trump and the Freedom Caucus was saying they were gonna try and balance the budget or at least cut expenses. And of course, what we know is that they just passed this big beautiful bill. Which really increases the deficits and they bump the debt, uh, ceiling up by another $5 trillion. So sadly, what do many of us have seen and been saying, which is to say they just can’t stop, kind of continue. Seems to be continuing. And, um, you know, the reason why that, just to close the full circle, the reason why that matters is they, they do this debt, they issue debt to cover these deficits, and then the debt requires interest payments and, you know, there’s not enough money to make the interest payments. And so. They more or less have to print the money, you know, and inflate the money supply to keep the system going. And that’s why it’s so important to hard assets. You know, we need to grow the economy at, you know, 4, 5, 6, 7% a year, which, which we’ve never really done on real terms. Well, I think that is kind of what they’re projecting it might be, but it, it’s gonna be harder than hell to achieve. I mean, it just, where you can’t just snap your fingers and create that growth. Now, don’t get me wrong, if you start to, if you ramp up inflation. If you have 10% inflation, well then the GDP number’s gonna get bigger, fast. And so really the model they’ve used, they call it the R Star model, is that they’ve got to have faster growth. Growth rate has to be higher than interest rates, or else you’re in a debt spiral. And so what’s been happening is, by the way, that’s why Trump wants to take interest rates down so much. You know, he is called for a 300 basis point cut. Imagine right now with inflation running at three plus percent, if they cut rates to one point a half percent or one point a quarter percent, I mean, it would be good for the economy. People would refi their houses. You know, there were all kinds of, you know, growth, right? Huge. But in turn it would be inflationary, very inflationary. That’s the trap. They’re really kind of caught in. It’s a seventies kind of stagflation sort of environment. You know, if they don’t keep rates low, they’re not gonna have any growth. If they want to get growth, they’ve gotta keep rates low. That’s gonna lead to monetary creation, which is gonna lead to inflation. Look how it all resolves is very complicated and none of us know. Yeah, sure. But what I do know with very high certainty, with a lot of confidence is this is going to be an inflationary decade. It’s already been an inflationary decade, and because of the way the math is today is very highly likely to continue to be an inflationary decade until we fix this monetary system. Well, we have less than 3% adoption. Three goes to six fairly easily. You know, human beings underestimate how long change really requires, and then we really underestimate how much change actually occurs. Think the internet like we are moving into a digital planet, right? Robots are not going to use credit cards, man. They’re not gonna use, they don’t need visa. We don’t need middlemen. The cool thing about Bitcoin, unlike the Rolls Royce, is you don’t have to buy the whole Rolls Royce. You can buy a fraction of it. You know, you don’t, maybe you guys partner with each other to do apartment buildings. Well, you’re already doing fractured deals on apartment buildings, so Sure. It’s not really that different. 2%, 3% goes to six. I mean, it does go to six. You have the largest ETF in the history of ETFs, okay? This supersedes the goal. ETF by orders of magnitude. I study markets very, very well, price. Really gets people’s attention. I think price is, uh, 90% of Bitcoin. Like I am truly a supply and demand guy. Oh wow. 21 million. And you guys have lost four. You lost 4 million coins. Oh, how’d you lose the 4 million? You lost the 4 million. I know how you lost it. You mispriced it. Bitcoin has been mispriced every day. Its entire history. Dude. 19 million coins have been issued. The addressable market is 8 billion people. You don’t need ’em all. Yep. You just need a small function of those 8 billion to go, Ooh. 21 million units and and four have been lost. It’s already mispriced. Okay. They’re pricing Bitcoin at one 15 Today, assuming there’s 21 million units, we know there’s not. There’s 17, so the supply shrunk. The market caps at 2 trillion. Hello. The standard deduction for a household is now, uh, what in a low 32,000 range. And it turns out that 60% of the households in the United States cannot take advantage of itemized deductions. That is when they take their mortgage interest, property taxes, charitable deductions, they don’t get that number. And so there’s not as much benefit to home ownership as there used to be in the United States. With our big institutional players, nobody wants their appraised values to be quickly marked down to market, because if your competitors don’t do the same thing and they’re part of the index and benchmark that you compete against, you’re going to underperform. And so we’ve traditionally had a lot. Appraised values for real estate among the institutional players, especially. You don’t get this out of the private market, but you get this from the nare players, the institutional type players, and, um, and everybody’s, uh, uh, fearful of underperforming that index. I would prefer as a private investor just to go ahead, bite the bullet and mark it down. Now take the pain if in fact you’ve seen it go down. Some markets have seen property values go down 30, 35% even in multifamily, but they’ve bottomed out in the transaction market and, and absolutely the, uh, the appraisers are gonna have to bring it down and the owners are gonna have to ease up that pressure and say, yes, I want a realistic appraisal. But, um, but there is that fear of underperforming the index and that’s. What’s holding up the American appraisal firms in 2008, 9, 10, 11, we saw a lot of deep distress. The the smart money was ready for it. Now, there’s a lot of people with dry powder, as we say. Ready to p on the market hoping for some distress from those who cannot refinance now, whose, whose CMBS loan or other money is, is rolling. A couple points there. One is, I think you’re going to see more loan modifications this cycle than last time because they realize it’s temporary and they realize that not all properties are in trouble. And these tend to be the higher leverage properties. The smart private wealth investors tended to use conservative leverage over the last several years knowing we’d hit a cycle and, and they probably are 65% or less. Leverage some of the, um, greener newer investment managers might have gone up to 80% and might have even used variable rate debt when they shouldn’t have. They’re the ones getting nailed. They’re losing all their equity and that property is distressed. So there’s not that much of it out there. But there’s a little bit, and I would certainly pounce on it if you can find it. There are often a lot of sort of hidden costs associated with buying versus renting. Can you talk about trying to weed through some of that? Sure some of the highest costs that we don’t think about when we own, although we do take cut down on risk. And also I think that’s come back to consumption. I, I is the fact that there’s the opportunity cost. So think about having 50%, a hundred percent of your home paid for. This, it’s the opportunity cost. You’ve actually taken capital out of play at higher returns to put it into something that perhaps, yes, you see it as a form of an investment, but it’s also partly consumption. And I think that’s why many people end up paying for their homes when they can, because there’s an old saying, and that is, you can’t go broke if you don’t owe money on it. Right? So if you, it’s hard for the lender to come get your home and you don’t really care, right? You wanna be able to. Have no debt on your home. It doesn’t make the typical financial sense if we argue at it from leverage and returns and maximization of returns. I think most people this high end level are looking at, you know, I, I, I, I have high net worth. I’m looking at both consumption and the investment side of the component. But very often the consumption wins and the investment is I can be safe and I can own this house. Outright in many states too. Your homeowner, the home that you live in, you are actually, if you’ve homesteaded the home, you’re actually protected against lawsuits and other things that are out there. Divorce cases will protect your position in, in terms of a homestead, so you can protect a significant portion of wealth by having a paid for home. What are some of those markets that are really overpriced versus. I guess underpriced right now. So when we look at the top 10 most overpriced markets in America right now, we look at their prices, where they are and compare them to where they should be statistically modeling them. We’re seeing the most overpriced markets are Detroit at 33.5% and then falling, falling, descending. Order of Cleveland, Ohio. New Haven, Connecticut, Akron, Ohio, Worcester, Massachusetts, Las Vegas, Nevada, Hartford, Connecticut. Rochester, New York, Knoxville, Tennessee, Toledo, Ohio. You’ll notice. And these are overpriced. These are overpriced. These, the overpriced mark. That’s so, that’s sort of counterintuitive, isn’t it? Ab absolutely. But yes. Wow. Okay. And then h how about the, uh, underpriced markets? I’m curious on that too. Sure. So when we then go to the opposite end of the spectrum, and usually now with underpriced comes risk and there’s risk in both of these markets, what you wanna do, both overpriced and underpriced, what you wanna be long term in a housing market. Uh, ’cause you want to be really close to that trend and not have these dramatic swings. It’s just like stock price. We don’t like volatility. Housing, it’s, it’s dangerous for performance. The most underpriced markets. We only have four markets in America right now that are trading at a discount relative to their long-term pricing trend. In other words, statistically, where they historically prices say prices should be today only four cities are underperforming. That that’s Austin, Texas at 3.1% below where they should be, or a discount of 3.1%. San Francisco at a discount of 6.5%. Wow. New Orleans, Louisiana at a discount of 8.7 and Honolulu, Hawaii at a discount of 10.3. Notice I’m not saying these markets are inexpensive. They’re just below where they’ve historically been. These are the best buys right now because they’re below their long-term trend. One of our other indices, we call it our price to rent ratio. It’s really a PE ratio for rents versus home ownership. And then so we can look at that. So if you’re in our a hundred markets, we know the average price, right? So it’s gonna be priced, divided by the annual average rent. So it’s gonna be how many dollars in price do you pay for every $1 and annual rent? And that gives us the relative difference between owning and renting. The higher that ratio. The, the more you should on in general be leaning towards renting, the lower that ratio, the more you should be leaning towards owning. And we used to do an old buy versus rent index for 23 cities. We now do it for 100 cities. And this price to rent ratio produces almost the same exact answer. So when we look at the average price to rent ratio in an area and we just compare, are they above or currently are you above the price to rent ratio? Uh, for Los Angeles, California. Are you below it? If you’re above that average for say the last 10 years, you’re gonna be rent friendly. If you’re below it, you’re gonna be bio friendly. I can do this very quickly. Pick a California market you’d like to know about. Why don’t we try Dallas, Texas. Okay. Dallas, Texas. That one’s in the top 100 in terms of population. So Dallas, Texas, uh, their price to rent ratio is at about a, just below a 6% premium. In other words, that trade off between renting and owning is about 6% above where it should be, so it slightly favors renting. I’ll jump to the next index. If we look at actual prices in Dallas, there’s a slight premium. So it’s, it’s, it’s telling me, Hey, that my price to rent ratio’s high, slightly favoring ownership, but it’s probably because prices are a little high and they might change. Uh, Dallas has had a bit of a. Premium right now. So I will now go look at Dallas rents. My gut feeling is they’re gonna be below average and they are. They’re at about a 4.5% discount. So that’s just market dynamics in motion right there. And we can do that for a hundred cities pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. You make a lot of money, but are still worried about retirement. Maybe you didn’t start earning until your thirties, now you’re trying to catch up. Meanwhile, you’ve got a mortgage, a private school to pay for, and you feel like you’re getting further and further behind. Good news. If you need to catch up on retirement, check out a program. M put off by some of the oldest and most prestigious life insurance companies in the world. It’s called Wealth Accelerator, and it can help you amplify your returns quickly, protect your money from creditors, and provide financial protection to your family if something happens to you. The concepts here are used by some of the wealthiest families in the world, and there’s no reason why they can’t be used by you. Check it out for yourself by going to wealth formula banking.com. Welcome back to the show everyone. Hope you enjoyed it and uh, once again. Thanks again for listening. Uh, I truly appreciate your support. I hope, uh, I hope it’s been entertaining for you and that you’ll learn something along the way and, um, you know, always appreciate your feedback. Shoot me an email, bucket wealth formula.com. Let me know if there’s things that you want me to do. Let me know if there’s things you wanna hear more about. Uh, but hopefully it’s gonna be a good year and we’re gonna keep plugging away talking about the, you know, try to get educated myself and pass along information to you on Wealth Formula Podcast. That’s it for me this week on Wealth Formula Podcast. This is Buck Joffrey. If you wanna learn more, you can now get free access to our in-depth personal finance course featuring industry leaders like Tom Wheel Wright and Ken McElroy. Visit well formula roadmap.com.

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Adam & the cuz Glizzy P bring the noise for this fun-packed episode! They re-live some of their favorite moments and memories from 2025 (barf drill anyone?) and what an exciting year it was! Adam shares the perfect song this week. In the Meat, Mm!, of the episode they discuss New Years Eve memories growing up, from Y2K to high school parties to an engagement! To close the show Elizabeth hosts the first edition of “Grocery Prices from the 90s”! Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

In this episode of The Milk Check, Ted Jacoby III welcomes Lloyd Metzger and TJ Jacoby of Valley Queen Cheese Company for a deep dive into the science, functionality and future of dairy proteins. The conversation starts at the molecular level – the difference between casein and whey – and builds toward the real-world implications for product developers, processors and nutrition brands. We cover: Why casein is built to carry calcium (and whey isn’t) How heat and pH change protein behavior Fast versus slow digestion and why both matter The role of whey protein in muscle maintenance, aging and GLP-1 nutrition What pro cream really is and why its value may be underestimated Why cellular agriculture is more niche than threat If you work in dairy, food formulation or nutrition, this is a protein conversation worth digesting. Got questions? We'd love to hear them. Submit below, and we might answer it on the show. Ask The Milk Check TMC-Intro-final[00:00:00]Ted Jacoby III: Hi everybody, and thank you for joining us today for this very special recording of the Milk Check Podcast. Today, our topic is: what is the future of dairy proteins? And we have two very special guests. The first is Lloyd Metzger, VP of Quality and Technical Services for Valley Queen Cheese Company, and formerly Professor of Dairy Science at South Dakota State University. And the second, particularly special to me, is my son TJ Jacoby, Whey Technologist for Valley Queen. A South Dakota State graduate. Someone who has been interested in dairy proteins since his first biology class in high school. Guys, thank you for joining us today and welcome to The Milk Check. Lloyd Metzger: Glad to be here. TJ Jacoby: Good to be on, Dad. Ted Jacoby III: It’s December 18th, 2025. Milk production in the US is up 4%. Milk production in Europe is up something similar. Milk production in New Zealand is up. Milk production in Argentina is up. We are definitely in an [00:01:00] environment today where the supply of milk and dairy is overwhelming demand, at least for the moment. Cheese prices are near historical lows. Butter prices are near historical lows. Nonfat milk, skim milk powder prices are on the low end of the range. This market is a market that feels heavy, and I think most people out there would say, it almost feels like even though we’re at lows, we may actually go lower before we go higher. And yet, on the other hand, there are whey proteins, Josh, if I’m not mistaken, whey proteins just hit historical highs. Josh White: Maybe the highest prices we’ve ever seen for whey protein isolate and WPC 80. Ted Jacoby III: So, we have an environment where the demand on the protein side is extremely strong, and the trends on protein consumption are extremely strong and really feel like they’re gonna be around for quite some time. We’ve got baby boomers retiring and whether it’s because of GLP-1s or it’s just a general knowledge and understanding of what human nutritional needs are as people age, they know that they need more protein in their [00:02:00] diet. So, it begs the question: what is going on with dairy proteins and whey proteins and how is this going to evolve in such a unique market where demand is so strong for protein right now? And so, I’m gonna ask the question first. What’s the difference at a molecular level between whey proteins and milk proteins? Because when we’re in an environment like we are now, where you’ve got the demand really, really high, you also have a market that’s gonna start looking for alternatives, simply because prices are so high. What is the difference between milk proteins in general and whey protein specifically? Lloyd Metzger: It’s important to talk about from a functional perspective how the proteins are different. I’m sure we’ll get into the nutritional differences between those proteins as well. It’s important to understand what’s driving those differences in functional characteristics. And it’s really all about calcium. The casein system is designed to carry calcium. The whey protein system is not designed to carry calcium. That differentiates the two groups of [00:03:00] proteins and makes their properties very different. TJ Jacoby: I’ll explain it like this. Milk proteins, there’s two classes of proteins, right? There’s casein and then there’s whey. The casein is used to make cheese, and then the whey protein is what comes off. So, the whey protein is everything that is not used to make cheese. So, the reason why casein proteins works so well for cheese because those proteins like to fall together in these spheres, they like to stick to one another. They like to stick to one another ’cause they have certain groups that latch onto the calcium and then they bridge with phosphate. When they do, they have multiple proteins, different types of casein proteins that bridge together with phosphate and then based on their repulsion forces, they stick together. Calcium and phosphates really help it stick when we make cheese. The outside of that casein, micelle, that ball, when we make cheese, that outside is stripped off, it becomes hydrophobic, and that causes those spheres to stick together. That’s a huge functional property of casein. Whey [00:04:00] protein is the opposite. Whey protein is really hydrophillic. It’s very polar. So, they like to float around in solution and stay floating around in solution. And they don’t like casein. It likes to stay separate from casein. And so, when you make cheese, it readily is released into the whey stream because it likes to stick with the water. In the same way, those kind of stick together with these sulfur groups. But when you heat it up, they unfold. And when they unfold, now there’s certain reactions that can take place. So, those are the two major differences between casein and whey. Lloyd, what did I miss? Lloyd Metzger: I would try to simplify it a little bit. The difference between casein and whey protein is casein is what’s trapped when we make cheese. And whey protein is the soluble protein that’s left over in the water phase of cheese. Cheese making is a dehydration process. We concentrate the fat and protein that’s in milk, the casein version of protein in milk. But you gotta look at the properties of those two [00:05:00] systems and the groups of protein. So, the casein protein is actually really stable to heat, but it is not stable to pH. So, casein will always coagulate at low pH. So, you lower the pH of milk, you get a yogurt-like product. That’s all the casein that’s coming out of the system. Whey proteins don’t mind a low pH, and they’ll stay soluble at a wide range of pH. But now, when you get to temperature, the complete opposite happens. Casein can handle super high temperatures and be very stable. Whey proteins can not handle high temperature at all, they start to gel. I think it’s important to look at the two different groups. Now you get into the functional differences between those two and the very different properties you have between those. Lloyd Metzger: That’s why you get all these products that are very different from each other. Why cheese is so much different than whey protein. And then you have these dairy products that are a combination that have the two together. So like when we make yogurt, we end up with the two products together and get this property that’s partway in between the two proteins. Ted Jacoby III: [00:06:00] Based on what you’re describing, when we’re talking about milk proteins, MPC 80, for example, there’s a higher level of calcium, I take it in milk proteins than compared to whey proteins. Is that true? Lloyd Metzger: Absolutely, but let’s remind everybody: milk protein is both casein and whey protein together at the normal ratio that’s in milk. So, of the protein, 80% is casein, 20% is whey protein. So, when you say milk protein, you’re actually meaning 80% casein and 20% whey protein. Now, when we talk about cheese or casein, we’re basically a hundred percent casein and 0% whey protein. Now, when we talk about whey protein, we’re essentially a 100% whey protein, no casein except for one fragment of casein that actually gets solubilized, as TJ described, and now actually becomes part of whey protein. Something that a lot of people don’t understand is that about 15% of what we call whey protein is actually a piece of casein that gets lost in the whey and now gets [00:07:00] captured and harvested in the whey protein manufacture process. But again, it’s important to remember milk protein is a 80 / 20 combination of casein and whey protein together. So, when you’re talking about milk protein, you’re actually talking about whey protein and casein together. Ted Jacoby III: It’s funny, I just learned something never really quite had my head around, and that’s that 80 / 20 ratio, that 80% of all the protein in milk is actually either alpha or beta casein. Correct? Lloyd Metzger: There’s actually four different casein fractions that are involved that make up that 80% of the total protein. Ted Jacoby III: Okay. The casein molecule isn’t really any bigger than most of the whey protein molecules, but they tend to clump together in those micelles. And so, they act as one big humongous mass compared to whey proteins. Correct? TJ Jacoby: Whey proteins may be collected like in pairs like two at a time, but casein proteins, there’s hundreds, right? Lloyd, that will just clump together. Thousands. TJ Jacoby: So, these spheres are absolutely massive protein complexes, but in fact there are a lot of little individual [00:08:00] proteins that make it up and they’re all bridged together with calcium and phosphate. Lloyd Metzger: It’s a packaging system that was designed to package up calcium and phosphorus. So, the whole casein system was designed by nature as a delivery vehicle for calcium and phosphorus, because calcium is not soluble by itself. Calcium phosphate is essentially rock. It’s the material that makes up eggshells. Think, think about a ground up eggshell that calcium phosphate complex is not soluble and it will sink to the bottom of your container of milk if you didn’t have the protein complex to hold it in solution. The analogy I use is it’s basically a kidney stone. Think about how much fun milking a cow would be if all the calcium and phosphorus was in the form of a kidney stone as you’re trying to milk the cow. All that calcium and phosphorus can be solubilized with the casein system and put it into solution and then make it so you can deliver that in a nutritional product. Ted Jacoby III: That makes perfect sense. That’s really cool. I think you guys also already touched on the differences in solubility as you were [00:09:00] describing the different proteins. But there’s differences in digestibility as well. What’s the source of that difference? TJ Jacoby: I’ll take this one. Returning back to the infant stage, I feel like we could set this up in light of why nature created these proteins. Dairy is the fundamental human food for infants. You have babies that can live up to a year off of just their mother’s milk. All the proteins that are found in there, those building blocks to grow an infant, can be boiled down to those two protein streams: whey protein and casein protein. The purpose of the casein protein for the infants is it’s fast acting. It’ll go right into the gut, and the gut is full of enzymes, but also really, really low pH, so low that it actually causes even those whey proteins to unfold. And It allows the stomach enzymes to break it up super, super fast and be absorbed. It’s considered one of the most bioavailable proteins known to man. It’s designed for that, that’s why nature created whey protein. Well, whey protein itself is also very nutritious. It has one of the highest concentrations of [00:10:00] essential amino acid, and the second highest known to man of branch-chain amino acids. That means it doesn’t have to be processed through the liver before it can be used by the human body. If your body’s actively using and consuming protein whey protein’s really good because it can be absorbed into your system and go right to the muscles. 33% of your muscle is branched chain amino acid. That’s what’s getting broken down while you’re working out. And then in the elderly, that’s what’s getting broken down that’s causing some muscle degeneration. Whey protein can help fortify that very quickly. However, all protein that is consumed in the body could also easily be processed through the liver with time. And so, if you have time, that’s where the casein comes into play. The casein, when it hits that acidic environment in the gut, it immediately clumps together. It actually creates cheese curds in the gut. And the reason why that’s so important is it slows down digestion so that slowly over time, that will be absorbed into the system. So it’s not [00:11:00] like a rush of energy right after the baby eats and then it goes away right away. Instead, it slows it down. The casein itself also likes to trap other nutrients. The casein in the gut will house the fat and the vitamins and the nutrients so that it’s slowly absorbed over the course of the next few hours before the baby’s next feeding. Ted Jacoby III: As a result of those digestibility differences, what are the differences in the amino acid profiles between casein and whey proteins? The body’s gonna need to break down most of that casein in order to absorb it. When the body breaks down that casein, what are the differences in the way that it absorbs some of those amino acid profiles and short-chain protein strands from the casein versus what’s readily bioavailable from the whey proteins? TJ Jacoby: Casein does not have the same percentage of those essential amino acids. It’s not as high, but it’s designed to be slow absorbing. Protein itself, it almost doesn’t matter the amino acid structure, as long as your body has enough of those vitamins and nutrients to absorb and to restructure it to [00:12:00] a different protein within the liver — that’s what your body needs. Most of us, the protein doesn’t have to be fast-acting. It’s not like our muscles are actively breaking down all the time. It can slowly be absorbed, be processed through the liver, and then used for almost any other function as long as we have all the vitamins and minerals that we need. Lloyd Metzger: Part of this huge shift we’re seeing in demand for protein, especially whey protein, this started 25, 30 years ago with bodybuilders and wanting to build muscle mass. And the realization that TJ mentioned: branch-chain amino acids are very important if you wanna rapidly put muscle mass on. It is also very important if you’re elderly or if you have sarcopenia where you’re starting to lose muscle mass. In those nutritional states, it’s really important to have high-level branch-chain amino acids, so you can put muscle on. Or if you’re on a GLP-1 medication where you’re not gonna be able to eat very much, you need a very efficient source of protein to build muscle mass. So there’s certain nutritional states where it is important to have branch-chain amino acids [00:13:00] and be able to get those from a protein like whey protein that has ’em at a very high level. But for the normal person, it’s not really all that relevant. You could get the protein you need from any protein that provides all the essential amino acids. Now, most plant proteins don’t do that. We’re talking about the difference between casein and whey protein. Both of them are an order of magnitude higher in nutritional quality than plant proteins because they have all the essential amino acids. And to TJ’s point, as long as you have the essential amino acids, the body can produce the non-essential amino acids from those essentials. Essential ones are amino acids the body can’t produce. You have to have those in the food you’re consuming to be able to produce the components you need. Josh White: We’ve got listeners from the dairy side of the equation and listeners from the utilization side that are making different products. And some of those customers are currently faced with the reality that a part of the equation for their adoption of whey proteins as an ingredient has shifted. The competition level’s very [00:14:00] high. They’re having more difficulty accessing some of it. And the price has changed quite a bit. And I think that when you’re talking about these products going into CPG applications as a lower inclusion rate ingredient, but with a lot of label power, being able to put whey protein, for instance, on that label, there’s several of them out there that are struggling to determine what the functional differences might be between the various dairy proteins. And what I’m afraid that is happening is some of these companies that are on the lower end of the value scale and can’t afford to keep up with all of the great products that are demanding whey protein or even milk protein, are gonnastart exploring alternatives outside of our space. and I think that we don’t want that, right? And what we’re seeing is this popularity of whey protein is driving a lot of customers for R&D projects to be asking us specifically for whey protein. And so help us understand what applications might make sense to use one, the other, or both. Lloyd Metzger: It completely depends on the product that [00:15:00] you’re after and the characteristics of the product that you want. Something like a beverage can go two different directions. So, if you’re gonna retort the beverage and put a lot of heat on it, you can’t do that with most whey proteins. They’re gonna gel. The most comparable protein to whey protein would be an egg protein. And everybody understands what happens when you heat eggs; they turn into a gel. So, whey proteins will happily do that. If you have a high enough concentration and you expose them to enough heat. Casein actually helps to protect whey protein from that coagulation. A lot of these high-protein beverages, they’re oftentimes a combination of casein and whey protein. They might alter the ratio a little bit from the 80 / 20. They might bump the whey protein up a little bit and have a 60 / 40 casein to whey protein. And so you’ll see ranges in that ratio of casein to whey protein, depending on the characteristics of the product that you’re actually after. The heat is a big piece of that. And then we go to pH as a big piece of what changes the functionality of casein to whey protein and makes you [00:16:00] change those ratios. Yogurt is another great example. You’ve got these super, super high-protein yogurts and a lot of cases they fortified with quite a bit of whey protein to be able to have more protein and still have the characteristics that you want in that product. In the protein bars, there’s all kinds of whey proteins there. In that application, you actually don’t even solubilize the protein. There’s hardly any water in that bar. It’s really almost a dry protein that has a plasticizer with it, some carbohydrates that actually make that edible. You’re almost eating a dry product. There’s a lot of food chemistry that goes into which product category you’re putting it in. There’s not this straight fast rule that you use whey proteins in this, you use casein and that. It depends on what food chemistry you use and how you put the blend together and then what processing you couple with that to get the characteristic that you’re actually after. Josh White: Can we spend a minute or two talking about the acidified products? They’ve gained a lot of popularity. The market potential is quite large. Can we talk a bit about the [00:17:00] differences between the clear WPIs and our traditional products? Lloyd Metzger: I wanna clarify the question. Are you talking specifically about whey protein only in the clear whey protein beverages versus the normal whey protein beverages? Ted Jacoby III: Yes. Lloyd Metzger: We really start to get into the weeds because we’ve got different whey products. So we’ve got whey protein concentrate. And then that comes in various forms. WPC 34 or WPC 80 are the most common. The 80 and the 34 correspond to how much protein on a dry basis those two products have. And they have whey proteins in the normal ratio that would be in the starting whey. Then we get into a group of products called whey protein isolates. And whey protein isolates go through an additional manufacturing process that allows you to purify the protein further and they’ll have more than 90% protein on a dry basis. And you may start to alter the ratio of the various whey proteins that were present in the starting whey. Now, when [00:18:00] we get into the clear whey protein isolates, we really start to alter the ratio of the proteins that are in there. We’ll also start to change some of the mineral profile of the components that are in that product. And then when we use those isolates in a formulation, we gotta be careful about all the other ingredients ’cause they’re gonna have an impact on whether or not the product is actually clear and whether or not it can be stable to heat. So, you can actually make whey protein stable to heat by controlling the mineral profile and controlling some of the processing conditions. You’re now taking a category of dairy ingredient and you’re starting to use technology IP to be able to provide specific functional characteristics that aren’t normally part of that ingredient. All of these may be called the same thing, and the basic consumer has absolutely no idea what the differences between all these things are. And when they’re looking at a label, they’re probably looking for the word whey protein, and that’s all they’re looking for. Josh White: As we’ve seen the market tighten up, we’ve seen [00:19:00] more inquiries and exploration about the use of pro cream,also called WPPC, also called WPC 70, so many different names. Definitely, in our experience, there’s quite a uniqueness as we originate this product from different manufacturers. Perhaps we can talk a bit more about what this product is and how it differs from the other proteins in the complex. Lloyd Metzger: I talked about WPC 80. That’s just the normal whey protein that we concentrate out of whey. And then, I mentioned whey protein isolate. To convert WPC 80 to a whey protein isolate, you use a filtration step called microfiltration. And in that microfiltration step, you remove any protein that is interacting with fat and take that out of the system. So, if you start with a normal WPC 80 and we’re gonna change it into a WPI. We are gonna go through a microfiltration process and we’re gonna lose about 25% of the protein that was there and all of the fat that was there. And [00:20:00] we’re gonna make a WPI out of that. And that WPI is gonna have about 75% of the protein we started with. The protein that we harvest out of that is actually pro cream. pro cream is just a byproduct of converting WPC 80 into WPI, and it’s gonna have about 25% of the mass of the protein that you started with, and all of the fat that was in that starting WPC 80 material. So that’s why you see it called high-fat WPC 30, and if you dry that down, it’s about a WPC 60. You can take that and blend that with WPC 34. You can do all kinds of things with that ingredient. Manufacturers are always trying to find a home for that. ’cause you’ve got a very high value product that’s easy to market in WPI. Ted Jacoby III: Lloyd, that pro cream, our hunch is there’s a lot more value in that pro cream than the market currently has its head around. Lloyd Metzger: they’re the same proteins that are in WPI, they’re just interacting with a fat. Now the fat [00:21:00] is very unique in that there’s quite a bit of phospholipid fat in there. And so there’s a lot of literature and research being done on the potential health benefits for brain development of phospholipids for infants as well as elderly to help with memory retention and actually help to prevent some Alzheimer’s effects. So, you see some companies starting to market that component that they’ve isolated. I think there is a lot of potential value there. But we’re in the early stages of where that’s gonna go. And you have some companies leading the way that are producing very specialized pro cream type products that are being used in infant nutrition or elderly nutrition. TJ Jacoby: But Lloyd, how do those phospholipids affect the shelf life of pro cream? Lloyd Metzger: They don’t help. The phospholipids are unsaturated fats or partially unsaturated and unsaturated fats are very easy to oxidize, so if they’re not handled properly, you’ll get very stale and oxidized off flavors in the product. It’s something you gotta be careful of. Ted Jacoby III: Oxidized fats, [00:22:00] another way to call that. That’s rancid, right? Yes. Lloyd Metzger: On its way to rancid. Josh White: Another selling point that people will make of the benefits of pro cream are IgGs. Can you guys explain a bit more of what that is to the layman? Lloyd Metzger: So, immunoglobulin is a protein that’s also present in milk. It’s really high in colostrum. It’s at very low levels in milk about 72 hours after the cow was started milking, the levels drop way down, but there is still a low level there. Those immunoglobulins are a very large protein. So when you go through your WPI manufacturing process, they’re gonna partition with that fat and that protein portion that you’re capturing. So they’re gonna go in that pro cream. Looking at the composition of IgG in the different waste streams, you’ll find it’s elevated in that pro cream portion. Now I’d be a little concerned about what kind of shape that IgGs in because you’ve seen a lot of heat [00:23:00] and different manufacturing conditions through that process. So you’d really have to be careful about what kind of claims you’re making based on what kind of shape that IgGs in. Mm-hmm. TJ Jacoby: For an infant, those IgGs will go right into the bloodstream. It’s whole proteins, but for us, it actually has to break up the protein entirely before it can be absorbed into our system. So what kind of functional benefits does IgG bring for an adult? I’d be curious to see what that literature entails. Mike Brown (2): Over the last couple decades, DNA technology has been used more and more to produce valuable proteins, often for medical use like insulin. Are we gonna see a point with the cost benefit of that kind of technology we’ll reach where we can actually use that to produce these whey proteins rather than using a cow? Lloyd Metzger: There’s different levels of concern depending on the particular protein. An individual protein and an individual soluble protein like beta-lactoglobulin and alpha-lactalbumin that are in [00:24:00] whey, those have more potential to be produced in a fermentation type process. ’cause they’re an individual protein. You can over express it, you can get a lot of that produced. But when you get to the complexities of multiple proteins that are in whey, that’s when it really becomes uneconomical to do that from a fermentation standpoint. ’cause you’ve gotta produce all of those individually, try to put ’em together, then purify ’em. What people forget is how efficient the cow is. The cow is essentially a walking fermentation tank that feeds itself, controls its own temperature, cleans itself up. All you’ve gotta do is get the milk out of it. When you look at all the steps that go into the process and what it takes to produce it, it’s really hard to beat the efficiency of a cow. Ted Jacoby III: Lloyd, am I right in assuming that the threat of cellular agriculture to dairy would come in the development of specific protein chains and amino acids, but probably not in terms of the complete [00:25:00] protein profile that is delivered in milk proteins and whey proteins. Lloyd Metzger: Correct. And it would be the very high-end, expensive. So the lactoferrin. It would be your first one or some of the IgG, anything that is at low concentration and very high value. Because even if you did everything perfectly, you’re probably still talking $25 to $30 a pound in the manufacturer and isolation process. Well, we we’re really excited about $11 whey protein isolate. Right? You know, and that’s still half the price. Ted Jacoby III: Makes sense. Lloyd, TJ, this was an absolutely fantastic discussion. This was exactly what I wanted to get out of it. I can tell you I learned quite a bit today and I’m sure our listeners will too. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Lloyd Metzger: No problem. Happy to do it. TJ Jacoby: Truly special to be on today, Dad. I grew up listening to a lot of these podcasts, right? Now we’re here, now we’re on it together with you. So, no, it was truly special.[00:26:00]

When creating your property management and lease agreements, there may be crucial pieces of information you are missing that could proactively protect you and your team… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Tim Baldwin from Property Management Law Solutions to talk about proactive strategies like scheduled inspections, maintenance plans, helping landlords stay ahead of costly problems, avoiding crisis mode, ensuring long-term property health, and more. You'll Learn [3:06] Creating Effective Property Management Agreements [8:34] Mold Addendums, Resident Benefits Packages, & More  [12:44] Building Efficient Property Management Systems Quotables "A lot of property management business owners view these contracts as just a protection that happens once you're legally at war with somebody. Instead of a proactive preemptive measure." "A lot of times it doesn't even matter what is written in the contract, it matters what they think is in the contract, the tenant or the owner." "We don't want to just be adding more bells and whistles and services if it's not actually going to be a profit center." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Tim Baldwin (00:00) property management companies need to make sure that both of those agreements really take their business from the beginning of how they operate to at the end of the tenancy and even the move out process and what governs those relationships.   Jason Hull (00:00) sure, property management companies need to make sure that both of those agreements really take their business from the beginning of how they operate to the end of the tenancy and even the move out process and what governs those   All right, I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. We talked to thousands of property management business owners. We've coached hundreds.   helping them figure out how to grow their business. And at DoorGrow, we believe good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. We are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. So today, I'm hanging out with   Tim Baldwin, welcome Tim. Thank you, Jason. And Tim is with a company called Property Management Law Solutions. So Tim, give the audience a little bit of background about you and how you kind of got connected to property management, how you kind of started into entrepreneurism. Give us a little bit of your journey. Yeah.   Tim Baldwin (01:05) Thank you, Jason.   Yeah, so I   am an attorney in Florida. I've been licensed to practice law for almost 22 years. I started out as a prosecutor when I was just out of law school. And then in 2006, I started my own practice. And when I did that, I wanted to enter into an area of law that really there weren't a lot of attorneys practicing. And so that led me to property managers, property management itself, and to the landlord business.   Jason Hull (01:42) enter   Got it. Okay, cool. Yeah.   Tim Baldwin (01:54) Since 2006, I really have specialized primarily in this area of law. And so for the past 20 years, I have developed a clientele throughout the state of Florida with my law firm, which is Property Management Law Solutions. And we help landlords, property owners, apartments, and property management companies across the state of Florida.   Jason Hull (02:18) And Florida usually is right in line with all the new stuff going on. There's California and Florida. So I'm sure you see some of the new stuff that's probably headed your way from California eventually maybe.   Tim Baldwin (02:27) You   We're sort of on a different spectrum,   I guess you might say in California, but yeah.   Jason Hull (02:38) Yeah,   yeah, totally. So, okay, well, yeah, I'm really interested in getting into the topic at hand. we're gonna be talking about.   proactive strategies like scheduled inspections, maintenance plans, helping landlords stay ahead of costly problems, avoiding crisis mode, ensuring long-term property health, and several other things. There's a lot. So where should we begin?   Tim Baldwin (03:06) I think the place to begin really for property managers and landlords is making sure they have the foundations correct. And I think a huge part of that is the lease agreement. The lease agreement is the operations document essentially. And that's where every property manager really should start when it comes to managing property. if you want to head dive into that, I'd be glad to talk about that topic.   Jason Hull (03:12) sure they have the foundations correct.   Yeah, let's do it.   Tim Baldwin (03:30) Well, like I said, it is the foundational document, just the operational document you have with tenants. And Jason, what I've seen throughout the years is sort of this common theme that landlords, property managers don't quite understand the significance of the lease and how ⁓ to see it as their business document, as their operations document, because that document is what   Jason Hull (03:30) Well, like I said, it is the foundational.   you know this was seen throughout the years is sort of this common theme that landlords that you know property manager managers I don't quite understand the significance of the lease and how to how to see it as their business document as their operations document because that document is what   you know obligates the tenants to act or not act in a certain way.   Tim Baldwin (03:58) obligates the tenants to act or not act in a certain way. It   gives the landlords the enforcement mechanism to run their business the way that they want to run it, as long as it's in compliance with the statute, of course. And so that part of it is ⁓ just absolutely critical. And it should address all of the various topics and ⁓ parts of the property management business that property managers see   Jason Hull (04:03) It gives the landlords the enforcement mechanism to run their business the way that they want to run it as long as it's in compliance with the statute of course. Sure. And so that part of it is just absolutely critical and it should address all of the various topics and parts of the property management business that property managers   see not just from a day to day standpoint but also the   Tim Baldwin (04:27) not just from a day-to-day standpoint, but also the sort   of the more rare instances or the occasions where it are unusual, but yet the lease still addresses those topics.   Jason Hull (04:31) So are there more rare instances or the occasions where it are unusual but yet the lease still addresses those   topics? Yeah, so Tim, I totally agree with you. One of the challenges I see is that usually when it comes to contracts, lot of property management business owners view these contracts as just a protection that happens once you're legally at war with somebody. Instead of a proactive preemptive measure,   of setting boundaries and expectations that can create a healthier relationship. so a lot of times it doesn't even matter what is written in the contract, it matters what they think is in the contract, the tenant or the owner. And so this is why we coach our clients on making sure that you do a review through the entire agreement with them and you use that as, like you're saying, as a document to help change things operationally.   You go through with them and explain to the tenant, this is what we expect from you. This is when rents due. This is the consequence. Do you understand this? Because it matters what they understand is in the agreement if you want them to be a better tenant or better owner. Otherwise, the document's really just a tool to go to war with somebody once you're in complete chaos. And there's a major issue. And we don't want to be in those situations. We want agreements. And yes, we want to protect ourselves.   Tim Baldwin (05:39) Absolutely.   Yeah.   Jason Hull (05:52) But even better is if we use it as an onboarding tool.   Tim Baldwin (05:56) You know, you're exactly right. mean, the education part of this is critical so that tenants know what to expect and sort of preparing onboarding documents that of course reflect what the lease provides. And sort of in tandem with that is the property management agreement itself. So property managers, knowing what they want in their business, knowing how they're going to operate, you mentioned inspections, know, having the criteria of when it is that you're going to inspect the property.   Jason Hull (05:56) Yeah, we are.   sort of entanglement with that is   Tim Baldwin (06:24) You know, if there's ⁓ additional inspections that may come up, whether it's owner requested or maybe it's an incidental that requires you to go inspect. So the property management agreement is just as important on the owner's side of things. And the lease in the property management agreement need to align with each other because you don't want to obligate yourself sort of on one end with the property management agreement, but then not have those enforcement mechanisms on the tenant side of things within the lease agreement.   Jason Hull (06:24) ⁓ You know, there's additional inspections that may come up whether it's only requested or maybe it's an incidental that requires you to go expect so that the property management agreement is just as important important on the owner's side of things and the lease in the property management agreement needs to align with each other because you don't want to obviate yourself sort of on one end with the property management agreement but then not have those enforcement mechanisms on the tenant side of things within the lease   agreement.   Got it, yeah. So if it's important for the tenant and the owners agreements for them to be able to understand these, how important is it for these documents to be plain language versus legal speak?   Tim Baldwin (07:10) Well, I mean, it's hard to get away from some of the legal speak if you want to call it that just because it's just like whenever you go close on a property. mean, you know, probably your audience is very familiar with that. I mean, there's just document after document. know, so it obviously can be put in plain terms, but it's not even so much about whether it's going to put in plain terms versus legalese, but rather which subject matter is going to be addressed.   That's the more important part of either one of these agreements, the property management agreement or the lease agreement. And so really, ⁓ landlords out there need to make sure, property management companies need to make sure that both of those agreements really take their business from the beginning of how they operate to at the end of the tenancy and even the move out process and what governs those relationships.   Jason Hull (07:37) either one of these agreements, the property management agreement or the lease agreement. so really landlords out there need to make sure, property management companies need to make sure that both of those agreements really take their business from the beginning of how they operate to the end of the tenancy and even the move out process and what governs those relationships.   Got it. So if they've got these really great agreements in place, hopefully maybe the language is   easy enough for them to be able to read it and understand it a bit so it's not super thick like some of the business stuff I've signed in the past. And then, and it's got like all these proactive things like inspections, rent increases are built in and some of these things that it prevents later problems and later challenges.   so they don't run into these scenarios where now it's a battle or someone's upset or there's a new negotiation that has to happen. What are some of the most critical things that you're seeing that people need to be putting into these agreements?   Tim Baldwin (08:40) Well, aside from just what you might consider to be the typical areas of interest in a lease agreement, what we're seeing a lot nowadays and really for the past few years, a really significant increase in tenant complaints with regard to mold. It's a really, really hot issue. And so having a mold addendum that really...   provides the nuts and bolts of what is the obligation of the landlord and the tenant when it comes to a claim for mold. ⁓ It's kind of a fact I just did a podcast or a seminar, mean, a seminar on this ⁓ last week ⁓ on this issue. And because really this is a topic that for years attorneys did not, I don't think even myself included, didn't really properly...   Jason Hull (09:02) I   when it comes to a claim for more. It's kind of that type of just need a podcast or a seminar, mean a seminar on this last week on this issue. And because really this is a topic that for years, attorneys did not, don't think even myself included, didn't really properly   address to the fullest. But since we see it so regularly now, we have a motor venom that provides for what the...   Tim Baldwin (09:27) addressed to the fullest. But since we see it so regularly now, you know, we have a molded end of that provides for what the parties are to   do in that event. So that's, that's a really big one. You mentioned maintenance. That's another big win ⁓ to where landlords need to be able to put some of the minor maintenance obligations on tenants because what is what's happening. And I'm sure your audience has experienced this before.   Jason Hull (09:37) to in that event. So that's a really big one. You mentioned maintenance. That's another big one to where landlords need to be able to put some of the minor maintenance obligations on tenants because what's happening, and I'm sure your audience has experienced this   before, is that the tenants expect the landlords to just do everything, mean, down to changing out a light bulb. So if those things are not addressed in the lease, the landlords can really...   Tim Baldwin (09:54) is that the tenants expect the landlords to just do everything. I down to changing out a light bulb. And so if those things are not addressed in the lease, the landlords can really find   themselves spinning their wheels and just having a hard time with informing the tenants, no, this is your responsibility. But if they can't point to it in a lease, it becomes problematic for the landlord. So those are two big issues that we see a whole lot.   Jason Hull (10:05) So just making sure there's really strong clarity related to maintenance, clarity related to mold. Mold's got to be a big issue in Florida. You guys have crazy humidity there. ⁓   Tim Baldwin (10:31) Yeah. Yeah.   Jason Hull (10:34) Not as big a deal in California,   Tim Baldwin (10:34) It is.   Jason Hull (10:35) which is pretty dry, but yeah, still an issue. Anything else that you're seeing? What about maybe like, there's been a lot of push in the last several years for resident benefits packages and putting some additional fees onto the tenants?   Tim Baldwin (10:52) Yeah, yeah, the revenue   stream is very important, of course, for property management companies and they're trying to figure out ways of creating those additional revenue centers. And one of them is, of course, tenant benefit packages. There's a variety of vendors that try to sort of pull those together into one package so that whatever it is that they're providing to the tenants, you can sort of get it all in one place. Some property management companies are creating sort of ⁓   Jason Hull (11:07) Mm-hmm.   whatever it is that they're providing to the tenants, you can sort of keep it all in one place. Some popular companies are creating ⁓   Tim Baldwin (11:21) those incidentals on their own, whether it's insurance coverage, certain amenities, credit building,   Jason Hull (11:21) those incidentals on their own. Whether it's insurance coverage, I'm sorry. ⁓ Filters. Yeah, credit building. Yeah.   Tim Baldwin (11:35) online portals, and these types of things. sort of this bulk. And then, of course, you've got to price it out correctly to make sure you're not losing money.   Jason Hull (11:37) these types of things are sort of this ball. And then of course you gotta price it out correctly to make sure you're not losing money.   Tim Baldwin (11:44) Another thing that ⁓ is fairly common and popular nowadays is sort of having these legal services, not legal services, but they're helping to reduce the cost of legal expenses in the event you have an eviction, covering costs or if you want to cover rent that the tenant hasn't paid up to   Jason Hull (11:45) Another thing that is fairly common in popular nowadays is sort of having these legal service, they're not legal services, but they're helping to reduce the cost of legal expenses and eventually have an addiction covering costs or if you wanna cover rent that the tenant hasn't paid.   Tim Baldwin (12:05) a certain amount. There's all these types of things that are ⁓ becoming more more popular, but as I...   Jason Hull (12:06) up to a certain amount, know, all these types of things that are becoming more more popular.   as I say to everybody that comes to me in this regard, you really got to make sure you're punching the numbers properly. You don't want to be losing money. And sometimes it has to do with how many properties you manage because you can leverage the numbers to create a bigger and better benefit for the tenants as well as for the property owners.   Tim Baldwin (12:13) say to every client that comes to me in this regard, you really got to make sure you're crunching the numbers properly. You don't want to be losing money and sometimes it has to do with how many properties you manage because you can leverage the numbers to create a bigger and better benefit for the tenants as well as for the property owners.   Jason Hull (12:34) Yeah, that makes sense. Obviously, we don't want to just be adding more more bells and whistles and services if it's not actually going to be a profit center, if we're going to be losing money. Cool. So now you mentioned, you know, in preparation for this, you know, it says, Tim will also discuss how consistency, documentation, structured maintenance routines.   Tim Baldwin (12:43) Exactly.   Jason Hull (12:55) not only prevent maintenance, like prevent emergencies, but also build lasting value and trust with tenants. And so let's get into that a little bit.   Tim Baldwin (13:03) Yeah, well everything that the property manager does really needs to be mapped out. Again, starting from the very beginning of creating this tenancy all the way through to the end of it is that the property managers need to know, you know, here's what I'm going to inspect. These are the services that we're going to provide. This is how we're going to process towards end of the lease processes. For an example, requiring tenants who are already placed   Jason Hull (13:04) Yeah,   who are already   placed to apply again to make sure that they still qualify to renew that lease. So having all of these touchstones, if you will, throughout the tenancy, those things really need to be mapped out in advance, put into your calendar, having the proper forms that relate to whatever it is that you're doing so you can notify the tenant, hey, this is coming up, or hey, we're going to be here doing this, or hey, the end of your lease is coming up.   Tim Baldwin (13:28) to apply again, to make sure that they still qualify to renew that lease. So having all of these touchstones, if you will, throughout the tenancy, those things really need to be mapped out in advance, put into your calendar, having the proper forms that relate to whatever it is that you're doing so you can notify the tenant, hey, this is coming up, or hey, we're gonna be here doing this, ⁓ or hey, the end of your lease is coming up, we need   to know what you're going to do. ⁓   Jason Hull (13:55) We need to know what you're going to do.   Tim Baldwin (13:58) It really is, ⁓ the structure itself helps to reduce the amount of wasted time. It sort of seems oxymoronic to say, if I put more effort into the management, into the steps of the process, that's gonna take time. But in reality, when you make it a system and these things become automatic, and that it becomes part of what your team does on   Jason Hull (13:58) it really is the structure itself helps to reduce the amount of wasted time. It sort of seems oxymoronic to say, if I put more effort into the management, into the steps of the process, that's going to take time. But in reality, when you make it a system, these things become automatic in that it becomes part of what your team does.   Tim Baldwin (14:22) the routine, it does reduce a lot of time with confusion.   Jason Hull (14:22) on the routine, does reduce a lot of time with confusion,   Tim Baldwin (14:27) know, miscommunication, missing things that you should have caught, and then making sure that you know which tenants should be renewed and which ones shouldn't be renewed. So all these things work together to make management a more efficient system.   Jason Hull (14:27) miscommunication, missing things that you should have caught, and then making sure that you know which tenants should be renewed and which ones shouldn't be renewed. So all these things work together to make management a more efficient system. Got it. So a lot of property managers probably initially tried to do everything themselves. That's like what entrepreneurs do. They're like, I'll figure it out.   Tim Baldwin (14:48) Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah.   Jason Hull (14:51) I'll go   ask AI, I'll go watch some YouTube videos. I don't know if I need a lawyer. I don't know. And they try and figure this stuff out themselves. What are some of the challenges that you see that kind of reveal to you why your business exists? Obviously your business exists to solve some real problems. So why would they need PM Law Solutions?   Tim Baldwin (15:14) Well, it's kind of like   what you're doing in the sense that when you have a service that's servicing a need for property managers, you're the professional, you have the training, you have the experience, you have the knowledge to help managers deal with really what they shouldn't have to be dealing with on the day to day. So from my standpoint, of course, property managers are not lawyers. Well, it's more than just law.   Jason Hull (15:38) It's more than just   law. It's seeing the big picture, it's seeing the full scope of how you get from point A to point Z seamlessly, efficiently, with productivity. And so having the professionals to help you streamline what you're doing, make sure you're doing it properly, make sure you're doing it to reduce the risks of liability is all part of what a professional should be helping you with, whether it's an attorney or even somebody like yourself who says, you want to grow?   Tim Baldwin (15:39) It's seeing the big picture, it's seeing the full scope of how you get from point A to point Z seamlessly, efficiently, with productivity. And so having the professionals to help you streamline what you're doing, make sure you're doing it properly, make sure you're doing it to reduce the risks of liability ⁓ is all part of what a professional should be helping you with, whether it's an attorney or even somebody like yourself who says, hey, you want to grow?   you want   more business, you want to be able to do it with more profit, then these are the steps you need to be taking. So any professional that's servicing that kind of a company, first of all, they should have something that they're providing that is the benefit and it has the value that they're paying for that service.   Jason Hull (16:08) you want more business, you want to be able to do it for a profit, and these are the steps you need to be taking. So any professional that's servicing that kind of a company, first of all, they should have something that they're providing that is the benefit and it has the value that they're paying for that   service. So what are some of the, I'd love you to tell the audience a little bit about property management law solutions and why they should maybe entertain a conversation with you.   why your company might be beneficial, how you could help them with some of the stuff we've been chatting about. Tell us a little bit about the business.   Tim Baldwin (16:44) Yeah, well, this is our specialty. So everything that we   do in this office is designed to help landlords, property owners in their rental business. We do some other things as well, real estate related, but the bulk of what we do is helping property management companies and landlords. so, ⁓ you know, again, it's setting up your system and your business correctly. It's getting those foundational documents. Also, you're getting sort of that library of resources and knowledge that you need.   Jason Hull (16:58) And so, ⁓ you know, again,   sort of that library of resources and knowledge that   you need, the training and education so that you're ⁓ managing properties the proper way. And so we can spot issues anytime you run into a situation where, hey, what do I do? This is what the tenant is saying. I'm not sure, you know, what is my standing here? What is my position here? How do I reduce my risk of liability? That's what an attorney who specializes in this area can help them do.   Tim Baldwin (17:10) the training and education so that you're ⁓ managing properties the proper way. And so ⁓ we can spot issues anytime you run into a situation to where, what do I do? This is what the tenant is saying. I'm not sure. You know, what is my standing here? What is my position here? How do I reduce my risk of liability? That's what an attorney who specializes in this area can help them do.   Not to mention help them with, again, the streamlining aspect of what they do because   Jason Hull (17:35) not to mention help them with the streamlining aspect of what they do   because property management business itself as you well know Jason is one that you have to really work on those margins to make sure that you're making a profit. So when you're wasting time and you're spending money unnecessarily it really can eat into that profit margin. So property management companies have us on retainer.   Tim Baldwin (17:40) Property management, the property management business itself, as you well know, Jason, is one that you have to really work on those margins to make sure that you're making a profit. And so when you're wasting time and you're spending money unnecessarily, it really can eat into that profit margin. So property management companies ⁓ have us on retainer to really   help them make sure that they're doing business the right way in that regard. We help them with ⁓ drafting those documents they need.   Jason Hull (18:02) to really help them make sure that they're doing business the right way in that regard. We help them with drafting those documents they   Tim Baldwin (18:09) with giving that legal advice. If they ever do have a legal contest or dispute in some way, we step in to help resolve it quickly, to try to avoid litigation, to resolve matters before they get out of hand. So having a law firm really help you at the beginning of things and earlier on tends to really help them save a lot of money and a lot of waste   Jason Hull (18:09) need, with giving that legal advice. If they ever do have a legal contest or dispute in some way, we step in and help resolve it quickly to try to avoid litigation, to resolve matters before they get out of hand. So having a law firm really help you at the beginning of things and earlier on tends to really help them save a lot of money.   Tim Baldwin (18:32) of time.   Jason Hull (18:32) Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Prevents a lot of major problems and major headaches later that could be very costly in terms of time and money. Got it. Cool. Well, Tim, I appreciate you coming here and hanging out with us on the DoorGrow show. Real quick word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by KRS SmartBooks, the bookkeeping team, property manager's trust when they're serious about growth. So listen, the holidays are busy enough.   Tim Baldwin (18:38) Yeah, absolutely.   Jason Hull (18:55) The last thing you need heading into January is another month of messy books, trust accounts that might be off, or owners blowing up your inbox asking why their statements don't make sense. KRS SmartBooks fixes that. They specialize in property management, accounting and app folio, building and yardie, propertyware and more. They make sure your financials are clean, compliant and ready for growth so you can focus on scaling your portfolio. And here's your end of year win.   If you enroll before December 31st, you'll get 30 % off your first month of bookkeeping. That's real savings and a real chance to start the new year with clarity instead of chaos. Visit krsbooks.com and mention DoorGrow on your intake form to unlock your discount. So, in final words, like in wrapping up, what would you like to say to all the property management business owners out there that are maybe   relevant to your business, you only deal with Florida, correct? For now. For now, okay. Okay, so if they're Florida property manager, if they're not a Florida property manager currently, where would you send people? Like how do they find somebody that's gonna be a good resource similar to you in another state? Well, the association is...   Tim Baldwin (19:44) For now, we are expanding outside of Florida, but yes.   Well, the associations, ⁓ apartment   associations, residential property management association may have some referrals in that way. And so I would probably start there. You can look at the bar association websites in those states to see if there are attorneys who hold themselves out as experts or specialists in that area of law. Those are two common ways of doing it. Obviously you could do a Google search, but trying to find someone.   Jason Hull (20:11) Okay.   and hold.   you can do Google search but trying to   find someone and I would encourage your audience to find the right law firm that fits the way you like to do business, who fits your personality, that you can easily communicate with, that you're able to get in contact with them in fairly short order. Those are critical components of having a landlord attorney because in that business things can happen and do happen.   Tim Baldwin (20:27) I would encourage your audience to find the right law firm that fits the way you like to do business, who fits your personality, that you can easily communicate with, that you're able to get in contact with them in fairly short order. Those are critical components of having a landlord attorney because in that business, things can happen and do happen very quickly   and so having a timely response is important.   So you might reach out to other companies or other landlords that you know in your network, start asking for referrals, do an interview, contact the law firm, ask them if you can talk to them about what they can provide to you, what their cost is, obviously, and see if that is a good fit for you.   Jason Hull (21:13) Got it. So if they're in Florida, how do they get in touch with you?   Tim Baldwin (21:18) Several ways they can look us up on our website which is PMLawSolutions.com. You can also go to LinkedIn, look at my name, Tim Baldwin, or Property Management Law Solutions. You can find me on LinkedIn. if you want to call our office, you can do that as well at 850-857-2463.   Jason Hull (21:31) speak. But if you want to call our office, you can do that as well at   850-857-2463. Perfect. All right, Tim, appreciate you coming out and hanging out here with me here on the DoorGrow show. My pleasure, Jason. Thank you. All right. So for those of you, if you are struggling to figure out how to grow your property management business, we are the best in the world at that here at DoorGrow.   Tim Baldwin (21:44) My pleasure, Jason. Thank you.   Jason Hull (21:55) Reach out to us. would love to see if we could help and take a look at your business if you want to get to the next level. If you would like a free training on how to get unlimited leads for free, text the word leads to 512-648-4608 and we'll send it to you. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners by going to doorgrowclub.com. And if you would like to get the best ideas in property management, join our newsletter.   at doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this episode even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on whatever channel you saw this or heard this on. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.  

FAN MAIL--We would love YOUR feedback--Send us a Text MessageMerry Christmas Everyone!This episode is our traditional replaying began in 2021 of the Dominican tradition of reading the Nativity proclamation, exploring its deep historical roots and emotional significance during Christmas. We also reflect on the joy of holiday music and how these elements combine to create a cherished experience for families everywhere.The Dominican Proclamation of The Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ (words)Video at Midnight Mass from 2023Key Points:• Sharing the Dominican proclamation of the Nativity • Importance of connecting with historical tradition • Reflection on the emotional impact of the Nativity story • Celebration of Christmas music and its significance • Resources shared for listeners to deepen their holiday experienceOther resources:MM#75--Merry Christmas 2021What Child is this?  by Josh GrobanMusic credits:  “O Come All Ye Faithful”, performed by 407 Music "Angels Heard from on High" performed by FranceMedia1 "Joy to the World" performed by 407 Music(all songs found on audio jungle) Want to leave a review? Click here, and if we earned a five-star review from you **high five and knuckle bumps**, we appreciate it greatly, thank you so much!

Je râle souvent sur LinkedIn, mais parfois l'algorithme me fait une fleur.Il y a quelques semaines, je tombe sur un post de Théo, qui me donne envie de commenter "Guide" et récupérer son workbook sur la prospection.Dans cette MM, je partage ce que j'ai retenu de cette pépite (pour une fois que je prends le temps de lire les contenus que je télécharge

Relive the jaw-dropping DoorDash driver twist that rocked the Bryan Kohberger saga in this pulse-pounding deep dive from Hidden Killers 2025 Year in Review – a look back at the biggest cases of the year. Back in June 2025, a DUI arrest bodycam confession ignited true crime chaos: A delivery driver claimed she parked next to Kohberger's white Hyundai Elantra outside the off-campus house minutes before the November 2022 Idaho student murders. Was it him lurking in the shadows, or a case of mistaken identity? As Kohberger now rots on four life sentences post-July guilty plea, we dissect her chilling account—delivering food to victim Xana Kernodle around 4 a.m., spotting a suspicious figure by a white car matching his, and the eerie timeline clash with phone pings and security cams. This Hidden Killers With Tony Brueski: True Crime Today retrospective uncovers the frenzy: Prosecutors subpoena her records, defense scrambles to debunk as "unreliable," and leaks reveal she ID'd Kohberger from photos during her 2024 arrest. Dive into the red flags—her delayed report, alcohol-fueled recall, and how it bolsters the prosecution's premeditation narrative alongside the Ka-Bar sheath DNA and Amazon buys. But does this "mystery witness" (aka "MM" in docs) crack the case wide open, or fuel third-party theories? We break down bodycam footage breakdowns, expert takes on eyewitness fallibility, and why it amplified pre-trial media storms leading to the Boise venue shift. Fast-forward to 2025 fallout: This bombshell fed the Goncalves' November WSU lawsuit, slamming university oversight of Kohberger's creepy campus behavior. True crime obsessives, this is gold—probe delivery dash cams, victim timelines, and if one late-night drop-off sealed a killer's fate. Packed with unfiltered analysis, it's your essential rewind on the #Idaho4 enigma. #BryanKohberger #IdahoMurders #DoorDashDriver #Idaho4 #TrueCrime #KohbergerWitness #HiddenKillers2025 #CrimeYearInReview #EyewitnessDrama #ForensicTwist #XanaKernodle #TrueCrimePodcast #MurderMystery Want to comment and watch this podcast as a video? Check out our YouTube Channel. https://www.youtube.com/@hiddenkillerspod Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Tik-Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@hiddenkillerspod X Twitter https://x.com/tonybpod Listen Ad-Free On Apple Podcasts Here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-crime-today-premium-plus-ad-free-advance-episode/id1705422872

Relive the jaw-dropping DoorDash driver twist that rocked the Bryan Kohberger saga in this pulse-pounding deep dive from Hidden Killers 2025 Year in Review – a look back at the biggest cases of the year. Back in June 2025, a DUI arrest bodycam confession ignited true crime chaos: A delivery driver claimed she parked next to Kohberger's white Hyundai Elantra outside the off-campus house minutes before the November 2022 Idaho student murders. Was it him lurking in the shadows, or a case of mistaken identity? As Kohberger now rots on four life sentences post-July guilty plea, we dissect her chilling account—delivering food to victim Xana Kernodle around 4 a.m., spotting a suspicious figure by a white car matching his, and the eerie timeline clash with phone pings and security cams. This Hidden Killers With Tony Brueski: True Crime Today retrospective uncovers the frenzy: Prosecutors subpoena her records, defense scrambles to debunk as "unreliable," and leaks reveal she ID'd Kohberger from photos during her 2024 arrest. Dive into the red flags—her delayed report, alcohol-fueled recall, and how it bolsters the prosecution's premeditation narrative alongside the Ka-Bar sheath DNA and Amazon buys. But does this "mystery witness" (aka "MM" in docs) crack the case wide open, or fuel third-party theories? We break down bodycam footage breakdowns, expert takes on eyewitness fallibility, and why it amplified pre-trial media storms leading to the Boise venue shift. Fast-forward to 2025 fallout: This bombshell fed the Goncalves' November WSU lawsuit, slamming university oversight of Kohberger's creepy campus behavior. True crime obsessives, this is gold—probe delivery dash cams, victim timelines, and if one late-night drop-off sealed a killer's fate. Packed with unfiltered analysis, it's your essential rewind on the #Idaho4 enigma. #BryanKohberger #IdahoMurders #DoorDashDriver #Idaho4 #TrueCrime #KohbergerWitness #HiddenKillers2025 #CrimeYearInReview #EyewitnessDrama #ForensicTwist #XanaKernodle #TrueCrimePodcast #MurderMystery Want to comment and watch this podcast as a video? Check out our YouTube Channel. https://www.youtube.com/@hiddenkillerspod Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Tik-Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@hiddenkillerspod X Twitter https://x.com/tonybpod Listen Ad-Free On Apple Podcasts Here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-crime-today-premium-plus-ad-free-advance-episode/id1705422872

Relive the jaw-dropping DoorDash driver twist that rocked the Bryan Kohberger saga in this pulse-pounding deep dive from Hidden Killers 2025 Year in Review – a look back at the biggest cases of the year. Back in June 2025, a DUI arrest bodycam confession ignited true crime chaos: A delivery driver claimed she parked next to Kohberger's white Hyundai Elantra outside the off-campus house minutes before the November 2022 Idaho student murders. Was it him lurking in the shadows, or a case of mistaken identity? As Kohberger now rots on four life sentences post-July guilty plea, we dissect her chilling account—delivering food to victim Xana Kernodle around 4 a.m., spotting a suspicious figure by a white car matching his, and the eerie timeline clash with phone pings and security cams. This Hidden Killers With Tony Brueski: True Crime Today retrospective uncovers the frenzy: Prosecutors subpoena her records, defense scrambles to debunk as "unreliable," and leaks reveal she ID'd Kohberger from photos during her 2024 arrest. Dive into the red flags—her delayed report, alcohol-fueled recall, and how it bolsters the prosecution's premeditation narrative alongside the Ka-Bar sheath DNA and Amazon buys. But does this "mystery witness" (aka "MM" in docs) crack the case wide open, or fuel third-party theories? We break down bodycam footage breakdowns, expert takes on eyewitness fallibility, and why it amplified pre-trial media storms leading to the Boise venue shift. Fast-forward to 2025 fallout: This bombshell fed the Goncalves' November WSU lawsuit, slamming university oversight of Kohberger's creepy campus behavior. True crime obsessives, this is gold—probe delivery dash cams, victim timelines, and if one late-night drop-off sealed a killer's fate. Packed with unfiltered analysis, it's your essential rewind on the #Idaho4 enigma. #BryanKohberger #IdahoMurders #DoorDashDriver #Idaho4 #TrueCrime #KohbergerWitness #HiddenKillers2025 #CrimeYearInReview #EyewitnessDrama #ForensicTwist #XanaKernodle #TrueCrimePodcast #MurderMystery Want to comment and watch this podcast as a video? Check out our YouTube Channel. https://www.youtube.com/@hiddenkillerspod Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hiddenkillerspod/ Tik-Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@hiddenkillerspod X Twitter https://x.com/tonybpod Listen Ad-Free On Apple Podcasts Here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-crime-today-premium-plus-ad-free-advance-episode/id1705422872

本集為十週年企劃的第七集，也是在週三比較特別的時間和大家見面，我們十週年的特輯都希望有一些特別的議題或是特別的心法。 本集邀請特別來賓-投資阿尼來聊聊，為何要開設鄉民投資的頻道？總經應該如何學習與使用？如何判斷市場的狀態？

In this episode, Shaji K. Kumar, MD, reviews key highlights from ASH 2025 in multiple myeloma (MM), focusing on emerging data for bispecific antibodies and CAR T-cell therapies across earlier and later lines of treatment. The discussion covers the following:MajesTEC-3: Results from the phase III study of teclistamab + daratumumab in R/R MM RedirecTT-1: Updated efficacy and safety of talquetamab + teclistamab in R/R MM and extramedullary diseaseCARTITUDE-4: Results following treatment with cilta-cel in patients with standard-risk cytogeneticsSTEM: Preliminary safety and efficacy data from the phase II study of cevostamab consolidation following BCMA-directed CAR T-cell therapyCAMMA1: Biomarker analyses from Arm B following cevostamab + pomalidomide and dexamethasone treatment in patients with R/R MMPresenter:Shaji K. Kumar, MDMark and Judy Mullins Professor of Hematological MalignanciesConsultant, Division of HematologyProfessor of MedicineResearch Chair, Division of HematologyMayo ClinicRochester, MinnesotaLink to full program: https://bit.ly/4995nFA Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ma fée des bois, dans cette MM, je te parle des podcasts que je kiffe en ce moment:Femmes coupables1 euro la minuteTchatcheuse T'écoutes quoi toi?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

VOV1 - Ngoại trưởng Mỹ Mác-cô Ru-bi-ô (Marco Rubio) cho biết tiến trình hướng tới một thỏa thuận hòa bình giữa Nga và Ucraina vẫn còn nhiều thách thức, dù Oa-sinh-tơn (Washington) đã đạt được một số bước tiến nhất định, trước thềm các cuộc đàm phán dự kiến diễn ra tại Mai-a-mi (Maiami) vào ngày mai.Ngoại trưởng Mỹ Marco Rubio. Ảnh: Reuters

C'est la dernière MM de l'année!À venir : deux semaines de rediffusion en mode playlist thématique.→ Des recos de contenus (à écouter, à lire, à savourer)→ Des épisodes Hotline, pour répondre à des questions très concrètes que tu t'es peut-être déjà posées.

“Your beliefs govern your reality.” In this episode, Nick speaks with Damon Cart, an NLP teacher and coach, about the transformative power of self-concept coaching. Damon shares his personal journey through depression, the importance of understanding one’s values, and the pitfalls of self-worth. What to listen for: Understanding your values changes how you approach achievement Self-worth is a flawed concept; it’s better to focus on values instead Taking action is crucial for gaining clarity on what truly matters Failure can lead to unexpected success “It has everything to do with your beliefs… Most people don’t believe they are the value that they’re seeking.” When you don't see your own value, you'll constantly search for it outside yourself Confidence and self-esteem are built internally, not earned through achievements Changing your beliefs about who you are opens the door to the life you actually want “If you’re adamant about being a happy and fulfilled person and you’re willing to work for it, you will get there.” You're never permanently stuck unless you stop moving toward what you want Working on yourself is an investment that pays off in how you experience life Happiness grows when you treat it like a priority, not a side quest About Damon Cart Damon is a world-leading expert in creating lasting internal transformations using the Self-Concept model™. As a master NLP practitioner and co-founder of The Self-Concept Research Group, he transformed his own life from a struggling insurance agent to a globally recognized authority in personal development. Mentored by NLP pioneer Steve Andreas, he has spent nearly eight years helping thousands achieve identity-level change. Based in Santa Cruz, California, Damon combines deep theory with practical application to make transformation effortless and permanent. https://selfconcept.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/damon-cart-aa79b122/ https://www.instagram.com/damoncart Resources: Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today! https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.436)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Damon Cart. Damon, how you doing today? Damon Cart (00:11.266)Good. How are you? Nick McGowan (00:12.828)I’m good, man, I’m excited. As I told you, this is the first episode of Brand New Office. So if people watch the video and I’m looking around, it’s other stuff in the office. I’m excited that you’re here, man. We were just shooting the breeze a bit before we got started and I’m excited to get into things. So why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre. Damon Cart (00:23.182)you Damon Cart (00:35.694)Hmm. Well, I teach NLP and I coach it as well. I do one-on-one coaching and not just NLP. I focus on a specific model called the self concept model. And it was a model that was taught to me by my mentor, Steve Andreas. He created it. And it is a model that models our identity, how we create our sense of self and how to transform that. Most people are not living the life that they would want to be living. And that’s rooted in them not being the person they want to be. And we think that we have to go conquer mountains or defeat dragons until we’re worthy of that. And that’s just not true. It has everything to do with your beliefs and how you organize that information into those beliefs and what in fact you believe about yourself. And most people don’t believe they are the value that they’re seeking. And as a result of that, they experience lower self-esteem, lower confidence and overall just lack of fulfillment. And we can transform that and sometimes as simple as one hour session just by transforming beliefs, restructuring that information. So instead of taking years of willpower and discipline and all of those things, it’s really in how you think about it. And there’s an exact organization to that. And once you understand it, then you can change it. And something about me that is, I don’t know if I’m, I don’t know, I feel like I’m a pretty open book about things, about myself. And I don’t know of anything that I would call bizarre. would say something that probably not a lot of people know about me, unless you really know me very well, is that I’m a rather emotional person. And that can be anything. That can be anger. That can be watching a movie and, you know, feeling emotional because of it, because it’s sad or it’s a great love story or something like that. I tend to be very emotional and be The older I’ve gotten, the more comfortable I am with just being emotional and vulnerable in front of people. But I don’t really show that in my videos. In my persona online, it’s just not, I don’t think it’s really relevant. And it’s not that I’m ashamed of it. It’s just, I don’t see the value in doing that. I’m a teacher and it’s for me, it’s about getting the information out there. Nick McGowan (02:51.884)Interesting. I want to go down that path a little bit because I am emotional. If you watched any videos, you can see some of the emotions come out. There are often times I’ll blame, I’m from Philly, so I’ll just blame the Northeast. I’m like, it’s because of Philly. Like, yeah, yeah. And that’s what everybody thinks about Philly people anyway. They’re crazy or they’re loud. It’s like partially, but some of that’s also generational trauma and they don’t really know how to handle it. And Damon Cart (03:03.854)Why not? Nick McGowan (03:16.787)It’s interesting because also as we get older like you can watch a commercial and you get over 40 and you start crying and you’re like I don’t know why like what the fuck was that what a good 12 second clip of something but it’s interesting that you put that to the side when you make your videos and it sounds really conscious like you’re like I’m not gonna allow myself to be not vulnerable but emotional because you don’t want it to block the message is that about right? Damon Cart (03:43.691)You know, got a comment on one of my videos recently and that one of the live streams I did was very academic. And I was like, well, like as opposed to what, how do you, because they’re, and you’ll hear people throw this word around when it comes to NLP teachers. like, this person’s very academic. And to me, that means like more theory-based and not experiential, but NLP is very experiential. So I was just like, well, you know, how do, Nick McGowan (04:03.638)Mm-hmm. Damon Cart (04:09.358)As opposed to what I’m giving you the steps of a process that you have to go and do and experience and he was like no No, not like that. You should put your personality into your videos more and he referenced a podcast and I went and looked at the podcast and it was one of those kind like bro podcasts where It was a young man and he’s you know, kind of putting a little bit of arrogance out there No judgment on him. Like this is what plays this is what sells and So I haven’t responded to the person yet, but on my video, but basically it comes down to this I I don’t see myself as the brand of what I’m doing. The information that I’m getting out there is the star of the show, not me. And there have been times where I put my personal life on there. I’ve done vlogs and things like that. And you will see me get emotional in those. But I’ve never found it to be like why people are coming to my videos. And if my personality overshadows what I’m teaching, which is you see this in like Tony Robbins, you know, and Nick McGowan (04:46.008)Mm. Nick McGowan (05:06.915)Yeah. Damon Cart (05:06.926)Then I feel like I’m not doing my job. I feel like I’ve the message and what I’m teaching is the most important thing, not who I am. I don’t want my, if I get emotional about something, I don’t want that to hijack the video. I want the information I’m teaching to be the thing that people are coming for and that they’re getting it. Nick McGowan (05:20.653)Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:26.553)That makes total sense. And I guess to people that don’t know that, they’re just going to interpret how they’re going to interpret because we are people and we’ll interpret things how we want and make up a story and go, here’s what it is. But that’s a great way to put it. You’re stewarding it. You’re basically just letting it come through you and kind of work through you. Do you feel like some of it is also channeled in that sort of way specifically? Or are you just saying, I’ve learned this information. I want to package it in the right way so you can get the information and Damon Cart (05:38.466)Yeah. Damon Cart (05:41.826)Yes. Nick McGowan (05:56.342)Never mind how I feel about Damon Cart (05:58.735)So definitely yes to the second part, when you say channel, what do mean by channel? Nick McGowan (06:04.412)There are certain people that channel information from a higher level, from God or from the universe or whatever, and they feel that comes through them. It’s almost like how creatives or artists can say, I don’t really know where that came from, but it just came out of me and it was kind of channeled through. And I’ve seen different people and I’ve talked to different people that are like, I don’t let my vessel really, or like the being get in the way because it’s being channeled through. And it sounds like you’re taking more of the conscious approach of like the information is the information. So take the information and me being yelly or emotional about it or whatever is not going to do you a bit of good. Here’s the information. But it also sounds like that person who’s like, I want I want you to be emotional because they probably are, you know. Damon Cart (06:46.668)Yeah, and yeah, so I’ve had those moments on, because I like to do live streams. So yeah, I’ve had those moments where I felt like, yeah, I was just channeling. But majority of it is, I’ve felt this my entire life. If I was struggling to solve a problem and I solve that problem, I know that there are other people who are trying to solve that problem and they’re really frustrated. And I know what that frustration feels like. So I just want to go to them and say, here’s the key or here’s. Here’s the information you need so that you don’t need to struggle with this anymore. And I feel like that’s really my job. My channel started with one of the things I realized very quickly when I was going to like one NLP training after another, especially getting into more and more advanced NLP trainings that I was attending, not teaching, was how many people didn’t actually know basic NLP. And it was like, okay, they’re spending thousands of dollars learning all this. And it is true. Like you just don’t really get a lot of practice in NLP trainings because that would make Nick McGowan (07:34.966)Mm. Damon Cart (07:43.299)the training’s extremely long and that wouldn’t be very competitive in the market. So people aren’t really practicing and then they hand you a certificate and say, now you’re certified. And it’s like that is completely meaningless. You have to go and practice it. And so what I was doing is I was practicing every single day on myself. was practicing, I had a practice group and I would practice with them once a week and had a practice partner who I practiced with once a week. And I was practicing on people and they didn’t even realize it. I was just making the world my NLP classroom. Nick McGowan (07:44.983)Yeah. Damon Cart (08:11.054)So I was understanding NLP rapidly. And a lot of this, was not getting the help of a teacher or a mentor up until I met my mentor, Steve Andreas. And so I started my YouTube channel being that the whole point of it was I’m going to teach people what they should have learned in their NLP training. And actually to this day, when I’m going, when I’m speaking at conferences, actually when I’m shoulder to shoulder speaking with other people who are presenting at these conferences, they will come to me and say, When I was taking my NLP training, I didn’t understand what I was learning and I had to turn to your videos because your videos were the videos that actually taught me what I was supposed to know. And so I get this compliment to this day, which is a huge compliment because that’s exactly what I was set out to do in the beginning. So yeah, I’ve always, the spotlight has always been the information that I’m teaching, not me. Nick McGowan (08:46.155)Nice. Nick McGowan (08:59.383)And it sounds like with everything you’re saying, you’ve just solidified it more and more and more. Like if they were like, you know, it’s a little dry, you would probably open up a little bit in that sort of way. But the fact that you keep getting like, this is what you set out to do and this is what it’s about. That’s awesome, man. And again, I think people are gonna interpret how they want. Like I wanna hear more emotions. Damon Cart (09:17.378)Yeah, and I do share, I’m happy to share like one of the reasons why I’ve had a lot of people come to me for coaching is they would say like, you know, I heard some of what you were saying and it didn’t really speak to me, but when you talked about your depressions or you talked about your divorce and things like that. that is something that I think it helps feed what I’m trying to do here. When I, when I don’t pretend like I’m this perfect person, I think when people are trying to really build a personality brand, that’s what they’re doing. Nick McGowan (09:30.69)yeah. Damon Cart (09:45.133)And there are people who want to follow that. want to believe that there are these sort of like higher than human people that they can follow. I just, that defeats the whole point. So yeah, I want people to know that I’ve worked through problems. I’ve worked through depression. I’ve had a divorce. I’ve had to deal with, you know, trying to maintain relationships with my kids. Nick McGowan (09:45.216)Yeah. Nick McGowan (09:55.851)Yeah. Damon Cart (10:06.222)you know, in these tough times of going through a divorce and moving out of the home, you know. So I do talk about these things because I want people to understand that I’m not just like coming from a place of like, had this all figured out from the beginning. It’s like, what I’m giving you is things that, problems that I’ve solved, things that I had to figure out for myself. that’s how I know that it works. And so now I’m giving it to you. So you don’t have to stay in that frustration. Nick McGowan (10:18.443)haha Nick McGowan (10:31.273)Wait, so there aren’t perfect people on the planet? Like there’s not somebody wandering around? Like all these people on social media? Damon Cart (10:36.426)you would be amazed you would be amazed at how people really buy into that stuff and i just like yeah Nick McGowan (10:41.716)my God, well they want to, you know? Like they really want that. And I can understand like really wanting that, but it’s like self-awareness. Like once you see it, like you can’t not see things. So if you’re like, I want this, why would I want this? Well, you know, and then you kind of work through your stuff. But big thing you’re saying with this is context. Like setting the stage, giving some context to it. Like if you just talked about all these things and you’re like, went through a divorce, but I’m totally good. And like everything’s totally fine. And like everything’s all right. for the people that are out there that would just be like, cool, see, he’s totally good. Like you’re actually hurting those people at that point. And it’s interesting, cause I think there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of hurt that’s being given out from coaches because they’re not actually working through this stuff that they’re working through. You told me before we even got started, like you were doing the work and kind of almost tripped into this because it made sense to do it when it made sense instead of like where I think 2020 and the whole COVID thing is an easy thing to look back to because a lot of people were like, well, what the fuck do I do now? I guess I become a coach for what? I don’t fucking know. But I guess I’ll do it because I see these other people doing it and like, why the fuck not? And at that point, they’re just like spewing things. I kind of tripped backwards into coaching because I went through a divorce and I had friends that were like, man, you helped me. Can you help a buddy of mine who’s also going through shit? Can you help somebody else? And it’s like Damon Cart (11:46.635)Yeah. Nick McGowan (12:05.334)Yeah, but I need to do so much more work because the more that you learn, the more you understand. Like there’s more to know about it. And likewise, I’m sure with the NLP stuff, like as you started to go into it, I’m sure you got three weeks, three months, three years into it. You’re like, oh my God, there’s so much that I’ve learned from it that you’re then able to turn around. And it sounds like you’ve got a good, I guess mindset, a sense of like, I’m going to help. I want to deliver the information instead of like pushing it upon people. But why don’t we take a little bit of a step back. How the hell did you get here? I know a little bit of the story, but why don’t you share that? Because again, context is important. Damon Cart (12:40.153)Yeah, so I became, well, I had my first depression right after I graduated college and it was, 9-11 happened. It was the first time I was out of school in my entire life. I guess I started going to school like at three and now I’m like 22 and I’m out of school for the first time and just, you know, facing that the rest of your life. Like, what do I do now? Nick McGowan (13:06.409)Yeah. Damon Cart (13:06.734)Yeah, 9-11 happened, which really shook me up because you feel like you’re living, you don’t even question your safety and suddenly something like that happens. And then I got arrested for something really stupid. And it’s really stupid to the point where it’s like, I mean, if you want to get into it, I don’t mind talking about it, but it’s not, I don’t know, I don’t find it that relevant. anyway, those three things happened in one summer. And I just was like, I don’t even feel like walking out my front door. It just feels dangerous. Like, who knows what can happen? Nick McGowan (13:22.1)I’m down. Nick McGowan (13:26.206)Fair enough. Damon Cart (13:35.047)And I gradually just kind of like pulled in more and more and didn’t process the feelings, the negative feelings that I was experiencing. And I just suddenly I realized I’m in a really bad place. And I’ve actually been in this place for months now. And I don’t know how to get myself out of it. And I remembered that I had a professor who taught a class called the philosophy of psychology. And he went through different therapeutic modalities, including hypnosis and gestalt therapy, which NLP is based on. And then at the end, he Nick McGowan (13:57.267)Mm. Damon Cart (14:04.856)pulled out NLP and he said like, this is the mother of them all, because it takes the best of everything that whatever works. And I was just amazed by what this guy could do. And I was, I remember thinking to myself, I got to learn this NLP thing one day. So that was in college and then I was graduated. Now I’m experiencing depression. I don’t have health insurance. I’m a bartender. And so I can’t, I don’t even have the money to hire a therapist. Nick McGowan (14:16.2)Mm. Damon Cart (14:27.502)So I remembered my professor and I called him up and told him what was going on and he said, well, come into my office. He said, I don’t believe in a free service, but I also don’t need your money. So he said, donate your time every time you come to see me to charity or money or whatever. And he’s like, I’m not going to check back with you. I’m just going to trust that you do it. Come back next week and we’ll get to work. I come back next week and in one hour session, months of depression is gone. And I just, my logical mind said, no, no. Nick McGowan (14:45.971)That’s cool. Damon Cart (14:57.056)No, cannot even be possible. But every other part of me was just like, I’m free, like I’m not depressed anymore. And I remember leaving his office and just like I had to stop and sit at a bench on the campus and was just like looking around. like, I walked in there a different person. I walked in there depressed and I’m walking out and there is no depression. just didn’t, it seemed crazy. And so I didn’t get depressed for another 10 years. And when I finally got depressed again, it had nothing to do with what I had gotten depressed with the first time. Nick McGowan (14:58.13)Hehehehe Nick McGowan (15:19.816)Yeah. Damon Cart (15:26.926)But I can say now, knowing NLP, that it was a way that I would think about things. Depression is a process, not like a thing. So, you know, 10 years later, now I’m living in Santa Cruz, California. I have an insurance agency. I’m married and I have two really young kids, like two kids under two years old. And everything is going wrong. And so I slip into a depression again and then even realize it. My wife at the time, ex-wife now, she’s a therapist and she just said, you need help. And I remember Part of me was like well, no, don’t and then I just stopped and I was like, yeah, actually I do I’m not good. And so I found a therapist and this was traditional therapy So I went to traditional psychotherapy and it took me an entire year to come out of depression So we’re talking one session with somebody who knew NLP versus an entire year with someone who’s doing more traditional therapy And when I started to realize even though I was out of that depression I was thinking maybe I can make some progress and some advances here But no, he only knew how to get, this therapist only knew how to get you out of the hole. And then once you were there, then he kind of like kept you there by asking more and more about problems rather than trying to move you to solutions. And I was like, okay, this isn’t working for me anymore. And so I stopped going to see him, but I knew if I didn’t do something different, I was going to end up right back there again. And that’s when I decided it’s time to learn NLP. And there was a training that might still happen here in Santa Cruz where NLP was created up at the university every summer. Nick McGowan (16:31.538)Mm. Damon Cart (16:56.52)And so I went to that training and it just felt like I came home. I was like, this is what I’ve been looking for. And I wasn’t even thinking that I was going to be a teacher or a coach at that point. I was still thinking I’m going to fix my insurance agency and I’m going to fix my marriage and everything’s going to be great. And I just couldn’t stop doing NLP. I would just try to get into a training every chance that I could. Like I mentioned before, I was practicing all the time. And by the time I came back a year later, Nick McGowan (17:00.627)Hmm. Damon Cart (17:22.79)About 75 % of the people who were there the year before returned for the, it was a master practitioner training. And they just kept coming up to me and they were like, why are you so much better than us? And I was like, I don’t know. said, so I started asking them questions and they were like, you we went, we got the same certification you did. So we, you know, we should be at the same level as you. And I was like, did you practice? Have you practiced at all since the last training a year ago? And they were all no. Nick McGowan (17:28.528)Well. Damon Cart (17:51.343)I was like, it’s not a secret. If you don’t practice, you’re not going to get good at it. And that’s why I’m better than you is I’m not, I don’t have any special talents. just practice. And, uh, so, and that’s when people started saying, uh, and then when I go to other NLP trainings, people would be like, well, how long have you been a coach or how long have you been a teacher? And I was like, I’m not, I’m an insurance agent. And they were like, what are you doing here? Cause mostly coaches and you know, teachers go to these trainings. And, uh, so yeah, by that point, after a year had passed, I was like, yes, I’m going to. Nick McGowan (17:53.212)Yeah. Damon Cart (18:20.216)I’m coaching, I’m gonna do teaching. And even still, was more about I wanted to be better at NLP and that was was driving me to wanna do that. So I started just teaching workshops and when that didn’t go very far, that’s when I decided to get on YouTube. A friend of mine actually said, hey, you’ve been to film school, why don’t you try YouTube? And so like, okay, I’ll give that a shot and I did. And yeah, I realized in that whole process that my marriage was not salvageable. was… just, you know, we hit that inroads and it was nothing that was going to make it better. And I also realized that being an insurance agent was making me absolutely miserable and there was no changing that. So it was like, you know, it’s not, I always thought that it was something about me not being good enough. And that’s why I wasn’t succeeding at the insurance business, but it was like, no, it’s just not a good fit. The crazy thing about it, once I realized that, and I realized that it was just going to use the business to keep me afloat until I transferred into this other business. I actually was able to make it successful at that point. was really strange. It’s like when, you know, this thing you’re trying so hard to do and then you finally say, fuck it, I don’t care anymore. Then it, you know, then it was easy. And then it was like, I want to say it easy, but it was, it was working a lot better. And so I was just basically, I moved my office in with another agent. said, can you babysit this while I transition out of this? And he said, yeah, absolutely. And so I was, you know, it took me a few years to kind of figure out this new business. But once I did, I was, I jumped and haven’t looked back since. Nick McGowan (19:20.817)the Yeah. Nick McGowan (19:46.162)I love all that and especially the I mean the real side of it like I joked like yeah You were overnight success took nine years like the amount of stuff that people see that they think like this is Whatever they make it up to be in their own heads and the fact that you were doing the work I mean there are little principles that are through all of this stuff where it’s like You did it in the sense that you just wanted to learn it and you were you even said to me that it was your calling When we feel that and we go in that direction, things will start to get easier, even if it’s the other stuff of like, I need to get this away. And I don’t know the answer to this question, but is it safe to assume that you’re living a better life and more happy life than you did when you had the agency, when you were married, at least to her and like where things are now, is it better? Damon Cart (20:33.742)100 times over. Especially thinking back during the times that I was depressed and I was just like, I guess this is just kind of how life is going to be for the rest of it. And that was depressing to even think about. And that’s what I like to tell people because when I come across someone who’s either depressed or kind of close to that. I want to be respectful. You don’t want to just say, your life is so much better than you. That will make it worse. what I do want to communicate to them is it will get better. It can get better. If you’re adamant about being a happy and fulfilled person and you’re willing to work for it, you will get there. You’re not stuck. This is not how the rest of your life has to be. Nick McGowan (21:02.095)Yeah. Damon Cart (21:25.708)Because yeah, like at this point, it’s like it has exceeded the fulfillment I experienced now has exceeded what I thought was even possible. And still it’s getting more and more fulfilling. So my take on it now is just like, well, how, how good can this get? How deep can I take this? And it’s not like a, it’s not like a greedy thing. It’s more of like a potential thing. What potential do I have to be even more fulfilled and Nick McGowan (21:43.877)Yeah. Damon Cart (21:52.844)more engaged in life and I’m curious to see how far I can take that. Nick McGowan (21:58.124)What a cool aspect of it. Like, well, fuck, let’s see what happens. And like, cool, let’s see how far we can go. And I think to call something out here too, for the people that are listening, isn’t, Damon’s not saying like, well, I was in a shitty spot. I learned this thing and everything worked better. Like that’s just not how life works. Like the amount of work that you had to put in that wasn’t just like curriculum work, but also work on your own. if you… Damon Cart (22:01.698)Yeah. Nick McGowan (22:26.232)If you actually sat back and thought about the amount of hours that you spent just even pondering on it, thinking about it, looking at other people, how they relate to life and what they do. Like you literally enveloped yourself in it instead of saying, well, I really want that. And the reason why I say that is there are people that I hear from the times that are like, man, I’ve tried therapy. I’ve tried this. I’ve tried that. It’s like, great. So what’s next? I’m like, if that didn’t work or if that was a piece of it, like talk therapy, everybody will go into talk therapy and they’re like, This was great and it led me in some direction or it was bullshit and I just yammered to somebody about my problems and they were, they would ask me, how does that make you feel or whatever? It’s like, that’s a part of all of this, but not just the end thing. I think a lot of people do want, they just want that like, what’s the pill that I can swallow and like push all this stuff away instead of trying to break down one barrier to break down another, to break down another, like they’re. There are visuals in my head at times where I’ll climb a mountain only to get to the top of it and go, what the fuck is that? Jeez, it’s another, all right, cool. And you get to a point where you just, you keep trucking along with it. So let’s talk about some of the really tough times where obviously going through a divorce can be a tough time. And for somebody who’s a divorced, it’s one of those things like congratulations or I’m sorry, or a mixture of both, you know? But that can be one of those things that really shapes you in a beautiful way. Like I used to tell people, Damon Cart (23:44.2)All right. Nick McGowan (23:51.65)I didn’t get a divorce to die. I got a divorce so I could live and actually change things. like, I look at life now and think, my God, how did I have that same sort of question that you did of like, well, is this it? I guess this is it. So I guess this is just what life is gonna be like. And it doesn’t have to be that way, but there were still dark times he went through. So were there any that come to mind that you were like, man, that was one of those like super pivotal moments? Like I went through that within my NLP journey and that changed how things shifted. Damon Cart (24:23.212)Yeah, there were a few. When I got a divorce, I was dating for the first time in 15 years. And in my late 30s, that was scary. Things had changed quite a bit. Now there was online dating, and I tried that. And that didn’t go so well, because on these apps, it’s like 70 % men and 30 % women. So the odds are really stacked against you. So I also had my own business, so I wasn’t going to date my employees nor my insurance clients. so I started saying, realizing that I needed, if I saw an attractive woman, I was going to have to go and just talk to her, you know, and that was really difficult to do. And also wanted that choice because I was kept slipping in the relationships, even some of the rebound relationships that I went through, kept slipping in the relationships where the women would turn out to be very passive aggressive and playing a lot of games and really trying to control and manipulate me. And I remember coming to like a choice point thinking, wait, Nick McGowan (25:16.247)Mm. Damon Cart (25:23.126)Is this all women are all women like this or is this just the women I’m attracting? And so I had to be really like honest with myself and I was like, you know what? I’m going to take this on. This is my responsibility. I know that there are good women out there. And so there’s something I’m doing that’s attracting this type of woman. And I want to figure out what that is. And so I just decided I was going to just date and date and date for an entire year. And at the end of that year, if I found someone that I was going to settle down with them. And I did find someone and it was coming up to that year and then the red flag went up and I saw she was doing the same thing. And I was like, oh man, I spent a year doing this and I almost missed it again, almost got slipped into this relationship with this person who was basically going to, it was going to be a rerun of all my relationships. And so was like, I need another year. And so I went another year and I dated a lot. could catch these red flags very quickly. Nick McGowan (26:01.954)Hmm. Damon Cart (26:16.366)And I started realizing that I was putting a certain kind of vulnerability out too early and certain women, was attracting certain women because they thought that they could control me. But once I made it clear that I understood what they were doing, because the last thing a passive aggressive person wants is to be called out. That’s why it’s passive aggressive, right? So I would start calling out what they were doing. They would disappear very quickly. And then I started to develop myself along that way and started attracting much better women. But I do remember like, I was getting to the end of like, Nick McGowan (26:24.066)Yeah. Nick McGowan (26:30.517)Yeah. Damon Cart (26:46.178)I was getting into the third year and I was like, I’m not really finding anyone. was just, I was really getting a bit cynical about it. And I just thought maybe I’m not gonna find someone to share the rest of my life with. And so I quit dating for six months. Like I quit approaching, quit dating. And I was just like, I really needed to focus on my business. Cause that was something that was lacking as well. And I had another big failure in that. Nick McGowan (26:51.243)Hmm. Damon Cart (27:11.756)that I was able to overcome. I was like, you know, less dating, more attention on my business. And that started to work out well for me. And six months later, I had like zero social life. I hadn’t been on a date in, you know, six months. And I was like, OK, I was just finishing up this online training that I had created. I was like, I really need to get out. I need some sunlight. I need some fresh air and I need to see people. And I’m walking down the street downtown here in Santa Cruz. And I just see this really attractive. really young woman and I was trying to talk myself out of talking to her but I was like you know actually no I’m gonna go do this and I just walked up to her and told her I thought you know she was really cute and that I wanted to know her name and possibly go out on a date with her now I’m married to her and you think about those times where you know you almost didn’t do something but you did and then how that changes the trajectory of your life And then that opened a whole new can of worms because she’s from a different country and we got separated by COVID. And she also got her visa taken away. we basically, we eloped in Istanbul, Turkey. The media picked it up and so it was broadcast live in Turkey, our wedding. And then we still couldn’t be together. And so it went on for two more years where the only way we could be together is if I traveled to Romania or we traveled to a country where we could both enter. It was a… Nick McGowan (28:37.42)Mm. Damon Cart (28:38.508)That was another dark time, but with a light at the end of the tunnel. but yeah, that’s, I threw a lot in there all at once. And I also, another dark time was a time that, I, my, business that I have now, had a major failure. And I just thought that was the end of it. All this work that I had done on YouTube for, you a year of doing videos. did a video every single day for eight months straight. And that was a lot of work. And I, that’s how I started to build. Nick McGowan (28:45.366)pain. Damon Cart (29:07.232)my following and then I put out my first training after doing youtube and it just was a spectacular failure and I thought that’s the end of it all this work that I had done and six weeks of I didn’t publish a single video and for six weeks and then suddenly I started getting all these emails and these messages hey we haven’t seen you put a video out in a while we’re worried about you are you sick are you dead let us know you’re okay and I was like you wouldn’t come to my Nick McGowan (29:30.154)Thank What? Yeah. Damon Cart (29:35.235)fucking training and you just want me to keep putting free videos out there. Is that what this is about? So was a little resentful, but then I started making videos again. And then I realized what that was all about. It was, I was promoting a live in-person workshop for a different trainer. And it was like, they, my following didn’t know who he was and didn’t want to see him and didn’t want to show up to a live workshop. They wanted on, they found me on a screen. They wanted me and they wanted me on a screen. And that’s when I realized. Nick McGowan (29:41.654)Yeah. Damon Cart (30:02.734)that they wanted digital products, digital trainings. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but I just thought nobody really wants to know what I have to say and that’s the end of it and it’s time to go move on to a different business. It was quite a relief when I realized the mistakes that I’d made and that actually people did want what I was offering. yeah, so it was a interesting learning curve and very frustrating at the time, but it all ended up being really good. Nick McGowan (30:31.084)So in what was that five minutes seven minutes, maybe you’ve just chunked all this stuff in and I I laugh at times because I think it’s funny how we can we can look in like history books and they’re like from this period to this period like 600 years these three things happened. What the fuck do you mean? Like there were so many other things that happened. You had all these dark times even the six weeks off. I’m sure you still had the body feeling of like why I got to sit down. I could do the video. Wait a minute. And then people come back, be like, are you all right? Are you dead? And be like, what the fuck do you mean? Where have you been? And you’re like… Damon Cart (31:04.15)No, and was so cliche, like whenever that failure happened, had trouble getting out of bed. I stayed in my pajamas most of the day. All the blinds were closed. They had very little light in my apartment. it’s like, because it was so weird. Like, I look back on it now, but it was like, that’s what you would see in a movie because you have to like show, you know, what’s going on inside the character by lighting it the right way and all that. And it was like, that’s what I was actually living through. And I didn’t even realize it at the time, but I was like, yeah, it was a Nick McGowan (31:24.479)Yeah. Damon Cart (31:33.773)It was a dark time and it was literally dark in my home. And that’s the way that it all felt. And finally, I remember just kind of emerging from that. And it was almost like opening the blinds and letting the sunlight in. it was like, you know what, I’m going to pick up my camera. And, yeah, I was just like, you know what? I’m a teacher. This is what I do. So I’m going to put that camera back up and start teaching again. And then eventually shortly thereafter, it led to one of the biggest successes that I had that still creating a training that I’m. Nick McGowan (31:37.685)Yeah. Nick McGowan (31:45.215)Bird singing. Damon Cart (32:02.956)you know, still selling to this day because I put so much effort into it. And, but if it hadn’t been for that failure, I would have never discovered that. And so, you know, it’s how these things often work. Nick McGowan (32:14.994)It’s how life works. Like you have to fail through things. You have to fuck around and find out. You also have to bash your head into the wall, the wrong wall sometimes to go, well, shit, that’s the wrong direction. Let me go back. And you still can learn things from it. I think, I think we can sometimes understand, from an intellectual perspective, like, yes, I get that you need to fail. You need to do this to do that. But then when people get into it can be really, it can be hurtful in a way that isn’t just to the timing that they’re in, but there are so many other things that they haven’t worked through or processed through that it feels like they’re just stacking it on. Like, and now this, and now that, and my God, and now my shoes, and now this. It’s like, you’re just adding things to it. But it can be really easy to do that when you’re in that dark spot. Now, obviously you’ve been through these different things. You’ve fucked around, found out, but you’ve also learned through all this stuff. And I joke with the like, well, here was this short little thing. Like how they even do it in movies. Like all this chaos and craziness happened and like 15 minutes later, it’s like, no, there was a lot of dark times, but there’s still that momentum and that movement. Even if you’re slowing down and you’re resting, you’re still moving in that direction. So the fact that you just didn’t give up, like, let’s be real, man, you had a lot of different times you could have just totally checked out. You could have been like, no, this is too much. I’m not doing it. And now, like, have you thought about that? Like, what have you checked out? You wouldn’t be where you’re at. You wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. You know, maybe you’re selling insurance again and like, fuck this, I can’t. Damon Cart (33:47.039)And I, you know, when I had that major failure, that’s what I thought. I was like, okay, do I have to go back into insurance? And I was seriously considering that. And, man, it was so painful to just even think about that. what I see with a lot of people, the real difference between people who are living the life that they want to live and really fulfilled by that and experiencing the kind of freedom they want is… They stuck with what they were doing, even if that like evolved, you know, because you try things, they fail, you keep trying new things. And so it evolves, but you’re still sticking with it. And what I would say is, you know, the really important thing is not to be so fixated on how you’re going to get there because I, if I had actually gotten what I wanted the way that I thought I wanted it, it would have been a lot more restrictive. I would have been having to show up, you know, just to keep my money going out, to actually physically show up in many different places and be teaching constantly, which is, you know, that’s what my teachers were doing. So I thought, well, that’s how it’s done. But they hadn’t really tapped into the Internet and YouTube and all that. So now I get the choice if I want to do that. I don’t have to like do that all the time. So I learned enough about, you know, business and everything to make it work the way that I make it work now. But that only came because the way that I thought I was going to do it failed miserably. So had to try to had to find a new way. Nick McGowan (35:06.633)Hmm. Damon Cart (35:08.192)When I think about like, had this weird experience earlier this year, was, so my wife and I, also my wife’s Romanian and we have a home in Romania. So we always go there in January and then we went to Cambodia and then we went to Vietnam. And I remember just like it really hitting me how much I was driven by freedom. And this is another thing that I think is really important to understand is when you, when you focus on values, then you’re not so focused on how you think it has to happen. You become more flexible and you know what. the values are that you’re after. And for a long time, freedom was such an important thing to me. And I remember earlier this year being in Vietnam and just being like, more freedom is not going to make me happier. More freedom is not going to make me more fulfilled. I have really hit that level of freedom that was far more than I expected to ever achieve. I can travel anywhere and go anywhere because I can run my business off of a laptop. And also have a great team of people who I work with who, you know, I don’t have to do everything. Nick McGowan (35:50.761)you Damon Cart (36:07.598)They’re there for that as well. So I have the money I need and I have all the freedom to travel and do whatever. And that was both a victory in that moment that I realized that, but it was also like, okay, so where do I go from here? And it was like a real question for me to sort of contemplate. And that’s, I that might sound a little arrogant, like you achieve all that you want and then you’re kind of like, okay, well, what do I do now? Like that’s a… a first world problem that most people would want to have that don’t even get to that point to have. it’s be prepared for that. Like if you really believe you’re going to be successful and you’re not going to stop until you become successful, be prepared for those moments that you have where you go, wow, OK, I really have it now. What now? And so I thought about all these different things that I could do from that point on. And I was like, well, wait a minute. It’s not about doing something different. I’m so happy with what I’m doing now. I don’t need to do anything different. I just want to do more of what I’m already doing. Nick McGowan (37:05.094)Yeah. Damon Cart (37:05.26)and I don’t need more freedom to do that. And it was a realization of I don’t need to be pursuing freedom so hard anymore because more of it actually can, at this point in my life, would probably be more nihilistic or more escapism. And it’s like, that’s not worth that either because that’s not gonna fulfill me more. So it was an interesting realization to come to that. And it’s like, yeah, okay, freedom doesn’t have to be the main thing here anymore. Nick McGowan (37:22.481)Mm-hmm Nick McGowan (37:33.874)Well, I think we’re also taught in this world with all the systems we have that you have to have a destination. Like think about even being like in high school and they’re like, we, need a five or you need a 10 year plan. That was always so difficult. I remember somebody even years ago was like, well, what’s your five or 10 year plan from now? It’s like, fuck if I know, because anything I come up with is going to be like half-hearted and like what I kind of want right now. But as you’ve moved through things and you do things, you start to see, well, I really want this. I want that. Like freedom is a big thing. I think a lot of people want freedom. I. Damon Cart (37:43.822)Hmm. Hmm. Nick McGowan (38:03.706)I love the freedom that I have. I’m right there with you where it’s like one of those things where you go, well, cool, I have it. Well, that’s cool. But like what’s really fulfilling inside is the thing that actually just drives us and pulls us from basically our chest. So for the people that are on their path towards self mastery and with everything you’ve gone through and especially with NLP, what’s your advice for those folks? Damon Cart (38:26.318)Keep your attention on what’s most important and what’s most important is your values. A value is a generalization about an experience that is important to you. So if happiness is important to you, success is important to you, authenticity is important to you, always keep your eyes on that. And then any goals you set need to be aligned with those values. Most of the time people have no idea what their values are in a particular context and they will be different from context to context. And they just set a goal because they think, okay, like you said, You have to have a destination, right? So here I’m going to set this goal, but they don’t really understand what’s driving the motivation to have that goal. And a lot of times it’s more external values. Well, other people value achieving this, so it must be valuable. Or if I achieve it, then these people will think very highly of me and respect me. Those are, you know, if you’re accomplishing something that does those things, there’s nothing wrong with that. But if that’s why you’re doing it, you’re probably not going to be fulfilled. by accomplishing that. And so a lot of people are chasing goals that are not even fulfilling to them. And whenever they fail at that, because really there’s that inner wisdom that is holding them back, like the inner wisdom that helped me back from succeeding as an insurance agent, because that would have been the golden handcuffs. It would have been really hard to walk away from a very successful business with a lot of money. And I would have probably tolerated that misery. you want to be careful. know, like when you quit at something because you run out of motivation for it. Nick McGowan (39:45.318)Hmm. Damon Cart (39:52.345)Check in with that is that a deeper wisdom that knows better that that’s not really going to fulfill you. But what most people do is they beat themselves up and they say, I should have had more discipline or I should have had more willpower. I’m just not good enough. And they go into this whole self-worth thing, which is not real by the way. It’s something that holds a lot of people back. And then the people who do succeed at it and they get there and they go, wow, this isn’t fulfilling. This feels rather empty. thought it would be great if when I finally Nick McGowan (40:03.791)Yeah. Nick McGowan (40:08.454)the Damon Cart (40:21.39)Achieve this but again, it wasn’t aligned with their values. So no, it’s not going to be fulfilling and Because they feel lost without a goal They set another goal and get back on that treadmill and they do the whole thing over and over again and people come to me for coaching now who are very very successful on paper you would think they would be extremely happy and fulfilled they have all the money they have the family they have the cars the house and everything and they’re coming to me because they feel like imposters or they’re coming to me because they feel so unfulfilled and they can’t understand it because they’ve accomplished everything they’ve ever wanted to accomplish yet they feel so empty inside. And it’s like, yeah, you’re good at accomplishing. The problem was you never really got in touch with what do you truly value? What is really important to you? And so that’s the most important thing is what’s most important to you. And the better you understand that, the more clarity you have around that, the more you’re naturally going to be drawn to that and motivated to do that. The other thing I would say is There is no such thing as self-worth. How this problem comes up is feeling like you’re not good enough, feeling like you deserve it or don’t deserve it. It goes both ways. And so what most people are feeling is a low sense of self-worth. And they feel like if I go and try to achieve something and I fail at it, I will lower my self-worth and I’m already clinging to what little I have. So most of the time people won’t do something and they’ll sit back and say, well, I’m waiting for the right opportunity. what they’re waiting is to feel of higher self-worth so that they feel like they can go do something and if they lose some self-worth, they’ll still be okay. Well, here’s the thing, there is no such thing as self-worth. There is no way to measure your value, which is what worth is. It’s really a metaphor and there’s a lot of problems that happen when we try to apply metaphors literally. And we see this in the Bible. Fundamentalists are people who are trying to apply metaphors in the Bible literally and it causes a lot of problems. So what people do is they have this idea of self-worth. And so they think, well, how do I measure my worth? Well, first of all, there’s no way to do it. There’s no objective scale or person who can be objective and measure people’s worth. So what do we do? We compare ourselves to others and that will destroy you every time. If you compare yourself to others to make yourself feel better about yourself because you think they’re less than you. Now you’re engaging in the superiority that’s going to bring you down. And if you play that game, you can’t only play it in one direction. Damon Cart (42:45.87)when you encounter someone you think is of higher worth than you, now you’re gonna feel bad about yourself. The whole thing, you can kill the whole thing just by stop comparing yourself to others. Now this idea of self-worth, it usually comes about very early in life and we just pile more and more beliefs on top of that whole idea. So the two things that I would recommend is get clear and clear about your values, basically what’s important to you. What does that actually look like to you? And you’re not going have it all figured out. And you’re definitely not going to figure it out all out on paper. You need to take action. And action is the best way to get that clarity, experience. And then the other thing is to dismantle the whole concept of self-worth entirely. When you do that, when you do those two things together, you’re just on the path to living a very fulfilling life, a life of being who you want to be and therefore creating the life you want to live. Nick McGowan (43:38.213)That’s awesome. And I think a lot of people can anchor into like the understanding of action and motivation too. Like you have to take action to be motivated, continue to do the thing. It’s likewise with what you’re saying where you have to take those actions, but you have to understand why you’re doing those things. And it is interesting how a lot of people don’t know what their principles are or they are somebody else’s principles. Like, well, my wife and I, or my partner and I, or my family and I, have these principles. Like, well, where did those come from? Well, you know, they just kind of came up and like, we don’t really think about that or don’t think about it throughout their day to day life of like, well, how do I move about this? And why do I want to do such a thing? I’m really glad that you touched on those two things, man. It’s been great having you on. So I appreciate your time. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Damon Cart (44:27.852)Yeah, the easiest place is my YouTube channel. It’s just Damon Cart, Damon Cart NLP. And we’ve got a lot of videos been doing this for quite a while, almost 10 years. So that’s, you’ll find not only my videos, but in my videos, I give a lot of free resources so that you can get started usually on the topic that I’m giving you or the solution to a problem. You can access like free PDFs and things like that. so also I have my website is selfconcept.com. Like I said, I do general NLP, but I also really focus on this one model because your beliefs about yourself determine your beliefs about everything else, you the world around you. And if you haven’t realized already, it’s your beliefs that govern your reality. So what you believe is possible, what you believe is true. lot of, most of our beliefs are deeply unconscious. So when you can understand what the beliefs are, especially the deeply unconscious ones about who you are, when you understand what those are, you understand their limitations and then you transform them so they don’t have those limitations. Then you become that person you value. Your self-esteem goes up, your confidence goes up and you naturally gravitate toward creating that life that you want to live that’s reflective of the value that you are. Nick McGowan (45:45.38)So wait, you putting worth to that? No, I’m just kidding. I’m only kidding. Awesome, man. Well, again, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being with us today. Damon Cart (45:48.052)It’s different, worse than the measurement. Damon Cart (45:55.246)Thank you for having me on.

Quand on râle sur sa to-do, qu'on traîne la patte ou qu'on doute… C'est facile d'oublier un truc pourtant fondamental : on a choisi d'être là.Dans cette Minute Marine, je te parle d'un petit shift d'état d'esprit que propose Ali Abdaal (auteur de Feel Good Productivity), et qui m'a pas mal parlé.Spoiler : ça ne rend pas tout plus facile, mais ça rend les choses plus claires.Toi aussi, tu as parfois l'impression de subir ta “to-bo”? Tenté-e par ce petit basculement de mindset ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

Struggles with Self-Worth: Rosalie's Journey from Abuse to Healing Through Faith In this episode host Diana welcomes Rosalie Janelle, host of 'The Good News' podcast, to share her powerful survivor story. Rosalie opens up about her journey from an abusive relationship to finding faith and beginning her healing process through therapy and a closer relationship with God. The discussion covers Rosalie's background, the signs of abuse, the harrowing experiences she endured, and how she was ultimately saved, both physically and spiritually. This episode aims to provide hope and encouragement to those in abusive situations, emphasizing the importance of faith, support systems, and professional help. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:26 Introducing Today's Guest: Rosalie Janelle 02:31 Rosalie's Background and Upbringing 04:42 College Years and Faith Struggles 07:21 Entering an Abusive Relationship 09:40 Escalation of Abuse 18:16 Struggles with Self-Worth and Infidelity 19:40 A Violent Turning Point 23:39 Realization and Rock Bottom 24:27 The Violent Incident 26:10 Aftermath and Legal Proceedings 26:56 Spiritual Awakening 30:39 Healing Journey 35:19 Therapy and EMDR 40:30 Advice for Those in Abusive Situations 43:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Website: www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Email: genaor@gmail.com Social media links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Rosellygenao Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zealouzlysweet/ My podcast: The Good News Podcast www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Radio Public Bio: Roselly Genao is a podcast host, spiritual coach and an operations supervisor in the emergency services industry. Roselly has been serving God faithfully since November 2019, shortly after she survived a traumatic attack on her life. Roselly's affinity is drawing people nearer to Christ through encouragement and inspiration. She currently is the host of The Good News Podcast and is a certified emotional first aide provider. With these means she helps bring people closer to God daily in conjunction with serving God.   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. How are you doing ? I'm glad you joined me today on my podcast. We have a survivor story today. I think you'll be really blessed by her story. Rosalie. Janelle is on the show today. And I hope that you'll listen closely to what she has to share with you. She's the host of the Good News podcast. She's going to bring a raw and honest story of how she got into an abusive relationship and how she got out, how she found the Lord, and how she has started her healing journey. So without [00:02:00] further ado, here's Rosalie. Welcome, Rosalie Janelle to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. No problem. I'm happy to be here. Diana, thank you for inviting me on. Now the tables are turned , you're in the guest chair today? Yes. My first time too, so I'm not used to it. I was just on her podcast, the Good News podcast. Mm-hmm. And uh, that's what podcasters do. We go on each other's shows. Yes. Amen. Absolutely. I'm happy to be here. So tell the audience a little bit about your fine self. Yes, absolutely. So as Diana mentioned, my name is Rosalie Genow. I go by Rose, by trade. I'm a manager of an operation center. And, by night I'm a podcast host of the Good News podcast and, full-time. I'm a believer for Jesus. I love, spreading the gospel, talking to others about the gospel, and what he has done in my life. So that's why I'm here. Awesome. So let's start from the [00:03:00] beginning. What was your family upbringing like? Were you raised in a Christian home? Oh, this question from the beginning. I wasn't, I was raised in a Catholic home. And I say that very loosely because my parents weren't practicing when I was growing up. They mostly like practice, up until the point I was born. And then I got baptized as a baby into the Catholic. Church. But I still went to Catholic school, so we weren't practicing at home, but I went to Catholic school, so that kind of shaped, you know, gave me a little bit of foundation as I was growing up. But weirdly enough, I still, I didn't know God and not when I was younger. So what was, your home like growing up? I mean, it was typical. I don't think that it was, abnormal. I had both my parents, I have, I'm one of three, I have two siblings and I. I don't know. I don't, I wouldn't say it was atypical. It was a loving home. I was involved in a lot of extracurricular activities growing up in [00:04:00] school. I was, involved in, pretty much every group that you could think of. I was a good academic kid. My siblings, they did, have their children, a little on the younger side, so. Towards like my teenage years, I was growing up in the home alone. 'Cause my siblings moved out and started their families. And at that point in time when I was a teenager, I was a little bit of a, I was trouble, I was definitely trouble. I was not making great decisions. I started dating really young. Oh gosh. Probably younger than I should have. And, I think that really started, in my early college years, I really started to make some pretty bad decisions. So it started in my teenage years. So when you went off to college, you said that you had a collapse of your faith. What was your relationship with God like then in your life? Yeah, when I got to college, I wasn't really practicing any kind of religion or [00:05:00] even praying to God. My life was, like I said, I started a tr a path on my life where I was making da bad decisions almost daily. Now looking back, I think it was, the lack of having a relationship with God. But I would say that in the beginning of my college career, I had no relationship with God. I actually was very confused, because I had graduated from a Catholic, high school, and then I went to a Catholic university and I was seeking answers. So I was going to the Catholic mass, almost weekly, but it was kind of like just going through the motions of my, that was in the first year of my, of. The first semester of college and then I went to a girlfriend's church. And it was a non-denominational Christian Church, probably second semester of freshman year. And, that kind of started to change my perspective. On, God and who he was and who Jesus is because, it was so different than the Catholic church. So, mm-hmm. It sparked us an interest, but I would [00:06:00] say not enough for me to do anything about it. Not at the time. Yeah. I can relate. I was raised Catholic. I know it means to go through the motions on the outside and nothing happening on the inside really. So you mentioned you made some bad choices in life. Why do you think that happened? I mean, for me at the time there was definitely, I was definitely going through a lot of stuff, just on the inside because I didn't have any kind of foundation. I didn't have any, belief and a higher power at that point in time. So I kind of saw life for what it was. It felt worthless, it felt like, so I made some pretty bad choices based off that root feeling of just feeling like, you know, there was no purpose for life. And I actually fell into depression. And during college, I was mixed up in bad relationships, through college. And then ultimately I ended up dropping out of college because. I was just making horrible decisions. I was partying all night and all of those things stemmed from the fact that I [00:07:00] viewed life as purposeless and therefore I didn't give myself enough self-worth. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. So it sounds like you were prime target for an abusive relationship that you got into. Would you be able to talk about that? Were there any red flags beforehand? Yeah. So, let's backtrack a little bit. Mm-hmm. So, after college, I actually, was with, a man who was semi abusive. Like we, we had really toxic, arguments. There was a once or twice where there was, physical fights between him and I. And ultimately when I left college, I walked away from that, you know? Mm-hmm. And I left college and I had to move back to Massachusetts. So I went to Seton Hall in New Jersey. And obviously after dropping out and not being able to afford living in New Jersey by myself, I was 20. I had to come back home to Massachusetts. And so when I did come back home to Massachusetts, I kinda just walked away from that relationship in college and I thought that, I didn't [00:08:00] think anything of it, I didn't see that it was an abusive relationship, my college relationship. I didn't think that it was anything outside of the normal. I thought I was like, oh, I'm 20 and I'm passionate. Fast forward probably. Let's see, I don't know how old I was , let's go back, let's go to 2016. Fast forward 2016. I dropped outta college in 2014 and I met a guy. He was actually a friend of a friend, so I met him through my friend and one of my closest girlfriends, honestly. And, and he came highly recommended. She thought she knew him. So she was like, yeah, you should give him a try. You know how to try going out with him, he seems like a good person. And so I did, to your question, and this is like late 2016, we started dating and within the first three months there were certainly red flags. I didn't see them then. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I did and I chose not to, but there was certainly a lot of, things that he didn't like about me. That [00:09:00] he ma he was vocal about from the very start, he, did not accept me for who I was. I come from a really small town, in Massachusetts. That's. Pretty ghetto. And he, often used to refer me to me as like a statistic of that same, city because a lot of people don't, they don't make it out of that city with a college degree or anything like that. And I had dropped out and so he used that, that oh, education target on my back, like to really make me feel bad. And that was only in the first three months. So there was definitely red flags. Did I listen? No. Yeah, I was guilty of ignoring red flags in my abusive relationship too. The relationship progresses, so when did you know the real abuse start? Mm-hmm. What kind of abuses did you endure? Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I feel like even three months in, even though, he wasn't physically, or even at that point, maybe emotionally abusive, but he [00:10:00] was definitely verbally abusive in the way he spoke to me. So I would say as early as those, it took me a really long time to actually understand that was abuse too. So as early as three months in, he was degrading me with words. And oftentimes, I would cry myself to sleep because I didn't know, I believed what he was saying, because I had, such a low self-esteem, such a self, a low self-worth. I believed everything that he said because I was like, well, it must be true. It's silly. But, i'm sorry, I kind of backtracked very common thought process that we deserve being treated this way. That's very common. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one thing led to another and, eventually the relationship became, emotionally abusive. Like he was very manipulative. He wanted to kind of just. Make every decision for me. And I didn't know he was doing it. He would do it. He was very persuasive. He was very charming. And I actually, when I started [00:11:00] dating him, I started my walk with God. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that he would be the one thing to deter it because I thought he was a Christian. I thought that he was in the church too. So we would go to church together. Oh, we had the whole deal together. Like it was just a front, and because I was like, oh, well he's, you know, obviously, I didn't marry him, but I also, the fact that I grew up in a Dominican household also played a part to it. I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over the place. No, you're fine. But, yeah, it played a role into the way I viewed men in my life because I thought that they always needed to be the, I'm Dominican, that culture's very, you know, the man is the head of the household, very machista, very, they gotta be the strong leader. And, so because I grew up in that setting, or with those examples, I would say. Not setting because my father was very different. But I saw that all around in the rest of my family. I definitely felt like I needed to have that in my life and I needed to follow [00:12:00] his lead, even though the lead was horrible. And so, I was like, all right, he's leading me anyways. We're going to church together. We're strengthening our faith together. This can't be that bad. That's what I used to tell myself. And there was a couple times that our verbal arguments got physical where he would pin me down. At times he would push me. It was a number of things. I tell myself all the time, I'm not even sure that I remember every single incident because there were so many at this point. And so ultimately. Towards the end of the relationship, he tried to kill me and oh, that's when I had to leave. Well, I didn't have an option. So it, it was a lot of physical, I'm sorry, a lot of verbal. And then ultimately physical abuse. So he was definitely faking it with the church stuff. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I didn't, I don't know. I would say definitely faking it, but also probably struggling on his own, and you mentioned your [00:13:00] background, but. I didn't even have that background of being Dominican or Spanish, but that seems to be a prevalent mindset in American culture, that the man is in charge and you're supposed to do what you're told and put up with it. Yeah, and that's why we don't fight back is because of the society that we are raised in, and then some of us have. An empathetic personality that results in wanting us to help people or maybe fix people. Was that true with you? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Especially by nature. I'm just like a, I'm a helper by nature. I want to help improve anything. I'm a manager, that's what I do. So I, with, when it came to my ex there was, he definitely had some, things internally going on that I thought. I was the answer to that I thought that I could help him with. There was definitely some anger stuff, and some unresolved trauma, so I was like, well. I'm pretty good at this stuff because I didn't, [00:14:00] at that point in my life, I hadn't really gone through much trauma. But I worked in the behavioral health field, so I'm like, I can help, I also love him so I can help. Mm-hmm. So each time that we had an issue I would focus on fixing either myself or trying to plead with him, see my side if I really thought that I was true, but oftentimes I was trying to fix him or I to be. Perfect for each other. For lack of better words. And you mentioned the word love. You loved him. What was your definition of love then? Yes. Well, I definitely, certainly did not know what love was then. Because, and I will say like it has a direct co correlation with the fact that I didn't know Jesus yet. Because I don't truly believe you can experience love without knowing Jesus. My definition of love back then was very, temporal. It was very, I don't even know what's the best word to explain it, but it was shallow. It was just based off of [00:15:00] appearances and what, what you can do for me and what I can do for you type of love. So not at all anything like what the love of God offers us. And I can say that now. I definitely know that I didn't know Jesus then. So I didn't know how to love or be properly loved. You were how old again? Whew. I didn't think about that. Let's see. Early in the twenties, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was 20, 24, 25, 24 when I started dating him. And then 20, oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 27 now, so that was two years ago. So I was about like 22 to 26 when I was dating him, or 25. I think all the young people, including myself, when I was in my twenties, I was very gullible and innocent and trusting and yeah, I didn't know what love was and my mother made it very clear that, oh, well you don't, you have no clue what love is [00:16:00] and no mom, I, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna find out. And. You learn as you get older. You learn by experience. You learn when you meet Jesus, you learn how he loved us and how we are to love others. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I hear you. Yeah. No, my mom said the same thing growing up. You don't know. I love is, I think we often hear that and we don't actually understand what it is until we either lack, real love or we experience it for the first time. Yeah, because our parents, they see the people that we date and they're like, oh no, not for my kid. That's not a good choice for you, but we don't listen. Yeah. It actually, it's so funny you mentioned that it actually was different with my ex in that accord because my entire family actually loved him. Really? My entire family actually. Did not. Well, for two reasons. I was never vocal about the abuse. I never actually told everybody the real [00:17:00] truth about what was going on behind closed doors. So that was the first thing. And like I said earlier, he was charming. He would, he was persuasive. He got along with just about everybody. And when I tell you, like most of my family, I'm probably to this day, they still say the same thing. They said, we were shocked. We were surprised 'cause they did not see it coming. Well. Mm-hmm. I think my dad and my stepmother didn't really know the extent of the abuse. They saw some things. And they didn't like him, but they would never interfere out of respect for me. My mother and my sister were a little more vocal about, I don't like him. He, he pushes you around, he bosses you around. He's, he is arrogant and he is rude and. All those things, but mm-hmm. No, I didn't, I didn't listen. So at this point in your relationship you suffered a lot up to this point. Mm-hmm. Would you say that you were an angel at that time? No, I [00:18:00] definitely would not say that. And, before it was really difficult for me to explain this portion of my story because I couldn't do it without guilt or shame because that's what the enemy tries to, ki tries to keep us in shame and secrecy. Mm-hmm. But I mean, in my relationship with my ex, I have, I, I became unfaithful and little. Did I know then because I didn't understand then why I was seeking other men, and I was see, , seeking attention from other guys. It all ties to, for me, it all ties to the fact that I, I had a really low self-esteem and my self-worth was probably on the ground again. I didn't know God, I didn't really have a relationship with him. I, like I was saying I was going to church, but I was just going through the motions 'cause it's what I used to do and I was going to a Christian Church at this time. But it's just based on the foundation that I had from growing up in that Catholic church and I was, I just knew to go through the motions. I didn't really understand that I needed [00:19:00] to practice a relationship with God. So even though I was going to church while I was in this relationship, I didn't know God enough to know the love that he had for me and therefore make better decisions. So I saw other men, I saw, attention from particularly this one other guy, and I got really involved with him while I was with my ex. And ultimately the, that was something that made the abuse worse. Mm-hmm. Because my ex found out about it, and he, there was two occasions where on one occasion, the first time that he found out about the other guy, it was, oh, it was tough. He dragged me outta my bed. I was sleeping and he, Ooh. Just woke me up and dragged me outta the bed because he saw the text messages from the other guy. And I remember in that morning, so me and my ex used to live with a roommate at that time. And I remember in that morning, my, [00:20:00] our roommate, our third roommate, she was at her boyfriend's house. Mm-hmm. So I, but I completely forgot. And when. He dragged me outta bed and I saw how violent he was about to get with me. He had pinned me down to the ground. I started to yell. I started to, well, I tried to start to yell her name out. And then a, like a voice was like, no one's here. In my head, oh, and I felt so abandoned, Diana. Oh, I felt so alone. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm alone. No one's going to know what happened to me if this man does something to me today. And so, the rest of that day was. Horrifying. He got, he was violent, but then also he was violent towards himself. He tried to he tried to hold me hostage by basically selling. Me that he was gonna kill himself. He took a, a knife and mm-hmm. And we were in the kitchen for over an hour [00:21:00] and I was trying to try and deescalate the situation. I must have called his, well his family's not, wasn't in Massachusetts at the time. So they were far. So I, I must have called his sister, his cousin, like everybody trying to get them on the phone too, just. Reason with him. 'cause he wouldn't reason with me at that point in time. And he was also scared. He was scared that he knew, like he had, abused me before and that I was kind of at that breaking point, he's like, I think you're gonna turn me in because it got so bad. And I. At the end of the day, his brother who lived at State over got there. He probably drove down like an hour, which is unheard of. Mm-hmm. And. He deescalated the situation he got, he got him out of the house. He moved everything out that day. So I left to my sister's house so that he can get everything out. And I ultimately went to the police station. I got a restraining order that [00:22:00] day, but that wasn't the end, a for me, I couldn't. I don't know. My definition of love was messed up back then, so I thought that I was still in love with him. So it wasn't even like four days or five days later that I went back to the courthouse and I dropped a restraining order so that I could be with him again, because I thought that, it was a mistake and he was, and I was guilt, I was feeling so guilty because of my my unfaithfulness. So I was like, I felt like I hurt him. I didn't even, I disregarded all the, everything that he did to me. And I just was like, well, I hurt him. I have to go back and help him and want to tend to his feelings. 'cause, he felt betrayed and not loved by me at the time. So. It just blows my mind. It just yeah. That you would go back to fix his problems. Which I think, and I'm sure you agree with me, this just makes it worse. [00:23:00] You going back after all of that. Because you felt guilty, which was misplaced guilt. Okay. That's, it's great that you acknowledged that you made a mistake, but, that doesn't cancel out his abusive behavior. Absolutely. And I thought it did. That's it. I love the word that you used, canceled. For me, that's what I thought it was like, all right, well I did this. So he did that. And, and of course, like I said, going back to what I said earlier, I believed all the things that he told me about me. Mm-hmm. I believed that I, that's what I deserved. And so I didn't see it as, I didn't view it as an issue or a problem. Now, when did you finally come to your senses and say, I've had enough. I'm at rock bottom. I've got to get out of this relationship. I mean, for good. Yeah. It didn't come by my own, choice. And I say that because a lot of people think that, you always just get to walk out of a [00:24:00] abusive a relationship or you just choose to go, and that's not the case. I went back to him and ultimately we had a lot of issues up until the last time that I saw him. And I was still being unfaithful. I was still seeking attention from other men. And so again, at this point, he's not trusting of me. He's still looking through my phone. He's following me at this point to everywhere that I go. And, on the last. Occasion, we went to a party and we went back to his house after the party and we were both drunk. And he went through my phone and he saw a text message from the other guy. And basically that's when he, that's the night that he tried to kill me. He, it was the most violent he had been with me, throwing me around the room, really just using me. As a punching bag. Mm-hmm. And, up until the point where he tried to strangle me and I don't really know how I got out of the str out of his choke [00:25:00] hold. But I did. And then ultimately I ran outside after that and the neighbors were there and the neighbors, they didn't even want to get involved. We lived in an apartment building in a three story apartment building, and I didn't knock on anybody's door because I was afraid. I just didn't know what to do. He took my phone, well he threw my phone out the window. It was just a bad situation, you know? And I was just trying to run out of the building. And when I was trying to run out of the building, there was neighbors coming inside the building. Mm-hmm. And they saw both of us. They saw that his shirt was ripped, they saw me, I had blood, I had, I was probably looking all crazy. Wow. And they. Like, well, we don't really wanna get involved in this. This seems like a, I don't know, I don't even know the words that they use. But instead of calling the police they asked him, they got involved. They said, oh, can you just give her phone back? That's basically what they told him. And I'm like, no, I need you guys to call 9 1 1 because he tried to kill me. He's not going to call [00:26:00] 9 1 1. And so ultimately after some push and pull, whatever. They gave me their phone. I called nine one one. And the ambulance showed up. The police showed up and they detained him. And so back to the question that you asked, when did I choose to leave? Or when did I have enough after this incident? The fact that the Lord delivered me from death because mm-hmm. I don't know how I got out of his choke. He was much stronger than me. He went, we went to through the court, he went to jail. We did all of that. I didn't really have a choice. The relationship had to be over at that point. Mm-hmm. It didn't feel like that for me. Even for months after that. It didn't feel like I, I wanted to leave. And that's the crazy part. That's the part that I was so deep into his manipulation, into his tricks, that even at that point, I felt like I still owed him something. It wasn't until maybe about six [00:27:00] months later that I gave, when I truly gave my life to Christ that I knew. That everything that I had felt about guilt and everything that he had done to me, that it was all wrong. It was so wrong. And I, that's when I knew, but it, it didn't happen immediately. Even I was at the point of death and in the hospital waking up all that. It wasn't the point where I said I had enough. I didn't have a choice at that point to be with him because of the situation, but I would say when I found Jesus was when I really knew that. I deserve so much more. It sounds like you had a lot of codependency going on there. Mm-hmm. And that is a real stronghold. That's almost like brainwashing from a cult. Mm-hmm. If somebody trying to kill you and you're in the hospital and you don't think that, well, I need to get out of this relationship. And everybody would talk to me and everybody would ask me like, what do you wanna [00:28:00] do? I had to sit through court proceedings where he was present and. I was going, I've always been a person who has like, pretty strong morale, even though I didn't mm-hmm. Like I said, like I grew up knowing right from wrong. Mm-hmm. And I knew at the time that the right thing to do was to continue going to court, cooperate so that he would be sentenced and everything go through the trial so that he wouldn't do this to other women. Mm-hmm. I knew that was the right thing to do. I didn't wanna do it though. I didn't wanna be a part of that. I didn't wanna be a part of something that could con particularly like, follow him around for the rest of his life. It was really sick in the beginning. But ultimately I did the right thing, and I look back and I know that it was the correct thing. Because you just have to do it because you just never know if somebody like that is gonna change. You can pray. But you don't know and you [00:29:00] don't want anyone else to fall into that trap. Just looking back at your story, it looks like the Lord intervened in your life. Maybe that was an angel that he sent to get you outta that choke hold. Maybe it was him that put your abuser in jail so you could get out. Did you have anybody else that was on your side or anybody else who helped you? Absolutely. When my family, became aware of what happened because I called them that night and, everybody showed up at the hospital. My mom was there, my aunt, my sister, they all came to the hospital. They just didn't know. They didn't, my sister had guessed a couple things 'cause she had seen him follow me. She had noticed him in the last month or two before that. So she had known something was up, but she didn't know that it was this bad. And, so she was right there. They all of them were right there, but had they known, they, I think they would've been there, before and they would've tried to get me out before. But like I [00:30:00] said, because of my own doing and my own wishes of wanting to be there, I just stayed. I. Without telling them. But my family was, they were really supportive after and during the court and the trials and everything, they were very supportive. And there was one person in particular who was probably key in getting me to go back to the church. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, I consider him an older brother and he, I grew up with around him and he had a church. He has a church in Massachusetts. Well. He goes to a church in Massachusetts and he always invited me. And so, that really was what helped me turn my life around at that point. So tell us how you, found the Lord Jesus as your savior For real now? Yeah. Yeah, for real. And I always tell people, I'm like, I think I got saved in thousand 15, but, and I used to say that before, but now I know that, he really saved me in 2019, not only because of what he delivered me from, but because I knew, I felt it. I [00:31:00] felt his love. I felt. Everything I felt redeemed. So I would say like June of 2019, I, which was only about six months after the incident and I. Was after, after the incident, I was going to church still. I was, like I said, I, there was not really a period of time that I wasn't going to church. I was always going to church, but it was always a through the motions kind of deal, and I never really prayed and I never really, I didn't even read the word I, the only word that I got was on Sundays. And mm-hmm. Then ultimately on, in June of 2019, I said. Something's gotta change because I knew mm-hmm. That everything that I had experienced up until that point and all of my feelings of like still wanting to be with my ex even after everything were, so, they were, they came from a place, an evil place, right? Because I just knew that the Lord wouldn't send me back to that type of relationship. So I. [00:32:00] I started being intentional. I started just like saying, okay, God. I would sit with him in the morning and just say, God, I need you to show me why I'm here. And I kept on asking that question, why I am here and why I'm here. And he didn't answer that question. He answered a DA different question that I didn't even know that I had in my heart. He answered like the questions about. My feeling, my not feeling abandoned. Sorry, how do I say this? He answered my questions about me. Being loved by him. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know I had those questions because I was just like, well, I just, I'm a fixer by nature, so I just wanted to fix all the, I was like, I need my pur, I need my purpose and I need to walk into it. That's it. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. And I was like, I need to learn how to do this. But by spending time with him daily. And really just getting into his word and learning his character, I learned his love. I learned that he loved me beyond every single thing that I had done. And I was able to walk out of the shame and [00:33:00] fear and guilt that I had wa I had walked in for so long because I, at that point I felt like I had made too many. Bad decisions, too many, just things that I was ashamed of. But when I was spending that time with him, he was like, I don't care about all that. He's like, I love you the way you are. I made you and I'm going to love you no matter what. And slowly but surely, he started to reveal his character to me. He started to reveal my purpose on this earth. And that's when I say that, I really got saved, but there was no like, aha moment. There was no, none of that. It was just like I, I had to start being intentional about it. I had to, if I wanted to see a change, I knew that something different, I had to do something different. Yeah. The Lord's been pursuing you your whole life. He was just waiting for you to Absolutely. Turn around and see him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So I say that healing is always a journey. There is no I've arrived [00:34:00] or I'm healed a hundred percent. It's a journey throughout our life. How did you start the healing process and what steps did you take besides church? I mean, I really changed my decisions. In my social life I reduced the amount that I was drinking. I used to drink a lot of alcohol that mm-hmm. I remember there was times that I drank alcohol to the point of blackout. So I reduced the amount of drinking I was doing. I reduced I increased the amount of times that I was in church a week. I was in church twice or three times a week rather than just on Sundays. And then. I told my family, I'm making a decision to make church a priority in my life. God, the priority, not just not the church, God, a priority in my life. So ev everything that did not serve that purpose, I tried to just remove out of it. I was in a job that I was unhappy, so I left it. I pursued a job that was. Quiet it, it just allowed me to take a step back from management. It wasn't in the limelight. I [00:35:00] didn't have a lot of pressure, so I could spend a lot of time with God. And then most important, next to God, I took, I started therapy. I did therapy. Mm-hmm. And I did a trauma specific therapy. I did EMDR and I. But that's the second thing next to Jesus that changed my life. So explain what is EMDR for those that don't know what that is? Yeah, I haven't had to explain this in a while, but I'll try my best. It's called, lemme see if I can get this right. It's called eye movement. Desensitizing reprocessing, I think it is. Yes. And it's a yes. I tried. And it's a type of therapy that specifics on specifies on like if you have had childhood trauma or any kind of trauma really, and you use physical movements like tapping or eye movements to walk you through the memories and reprocess those memories and desensitize them. The emotions that are attached to it. So I [00:36:00] did that with the entire experience that I went through with my ex up until the point where he tried to kill me. And a lot of stuff was brought up during that during that year that I did therapy. It was very intense. It was hard work. It is hard, but I believed the Lord. For bringing me to that therapist because it was a very godsend, like it was a referral. And I knew that if I saw it through that on the other side, I was gonna come out the person that the Lord wanted me to come out. And that's exactly what happened. So I tell the listeners that are, there are many different tools for healing. Not everybody chooses the same tool. It's whatever's. Helpful for them and their situation. So you thought that therapist and that technique was really helpful for you, it sounds like. Yeah, because something that I noticed like I said, a lot of. Yes. I wasn't an abusive relationship, but there was some decision making in [00:37:00] my past choices that obviously weren't rooted out of that abusive relationship that came out of a different place. And I had done talk that I, I mentioned I was depressed in 2014 and when, mm-hmm. When I left college, I had. Done talk therapy. I had done all of that and it didn't work. CBT kind of stuff. And so I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific. Look at me just being a fixer and a planner, right? I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific and it's going to target this trauma that I just went through and help me come out a better person. And EMDR is truly if you are, that, if you're looking for results, that's what. You'll get if you apply yourself. I like what you said about there were issues that you had that were not related to the abuse. A lot of people, they wanna ignore those things and blame. Mm-hmm. Everything on the abuse. Well, we are complex creatures, aren't we? Absolutely. Oh. It's not always black and white, cut and dry. There are, aspects [00:38:00] of our personalities, our upbringing that are separate from the abuse that also need to be. Dealt with and healed. Yeah, too. So I'm glad you mentioned that 'cause that is important. But you're admitting that yes, you found the Lord and you're on your journey of healing, but it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows. There were some struggles and that we are going to struggle. Absolutely. Or we just keep going forward, right? Absolutely. It was not a, walk in the park after I made that decision. And especially for me, who was somebody who was battling, I was battling, just sexual temptation, lust desiring to just be in the world, drink alcohol, those things, those were not easy decisions to make. But. I had the strength of the Lord because I was with him and he was with me. Amen. And so I did it. Yeah. But it was not easy because there was, and especially I'm still young. I'm, I was what, 25 when I started making that, those choices. Mm-hmm. To turn to the Lord and. It's [00:39:00] just, it goes against everything that a natural 25-year-old wants. Yes. And you're being honest here, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate that you're being real with us. Yeah, absolutely. You're not pretending that, everything is hunky dory and you're perfect. No, absolutely not. So what is your relationship with God like right now? I think it's awesome. He's my best friend. I talk to him daily. I go to church. I'm involved in my church. I'm a spiritual coach. I have the good news podcast. I don't know. I don't find anything more gratifying than using every aspect of my life to glorify God and to glorify his holy name. And that's what I do every single day. I try at least. Amen. You're definitely different. The new rose looks different than the old rose. Oh my gosh, yes. And I laugh because this is something that. I am still experiencing with people that know me, that have known [00:40:00] me for many years. They're like, you're different now. Mm-hmm. And I get this so often now within my family, friends, they're like, oh, the old Rose wouldn't do this. Or the old, or the old rose was you. I get this a lot was fun. And I'm like, your definition of fun and my definition of fun now is completely different because I no longer want the things that the world has to offer. Yep. The things I used to do, I don't do them anymore. There's a song I put away My child. Just things. Yes. We have a lot of listeners who are listening to your powerful story today, and they're in an abusive situation right now. What advice would you give them right now? Oh, this is hard. I think I, I have so many. We still got 10 more minutes left on. Okay. So I got it. Well, if you don't know, God, that's my first piece of advice is to get to know him. I don't think that I could have gotten out [00:41:00] of my situation without him. I know that. I know that, like I said, my hand was forced because I. Was at the hospital and he was in jail. And it was no other choice, but I think that was God. God really delivered me from death and deliver, delivered me from that situation to get me to the place that I am now. So if you don't know God, it's so important that you have a relationship with him because he's gonna guide you the best. And secondly, trust somebody. Trust any someone in your life and talk to them about it. I didn't. And it made me feel so alone. It made me feel abandoned. Mm-hmm. And I know now that I have a. Army of people who love me and will, go to war for me. And I didn't think that, you think that oftentimes because of the choices that you make and ultimately for me, like, I thought all of my decisions was what warranted that abuse. So we get to a place where we don't wanna reach out for help because we're like, people are gonna look at me and say well, you [00:42:00] did that to yourself, but that's not. I learned that wasn't true. That the people that are there for you, that love you will help you out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I tell my listeners all the time, I'm available to help people. I'll help. I'll help you any way I can, and I'm sure that you would say the same thing. Absolutely. Yeah. You would help anybody that reached out to you for help. Yes. I'm always happy to be an a listening ear. I literally, like I said, I'm a spiritual coach, so my phone is on twenty four seven. I answer calls, texts, voice notes, whatever. Yes. Awesome. Rose has her good news podcast. Yes. So you can hear her putting me in the hot seat for a change. And so you can listen to that on her show. How can the listeners connect with you? Absolutely. I am on, well, the Good News podcast, you could go to ww dot the good news podcast.org. You could find it on [00:43:00] iTunes and Spotify, but I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, and I'll have all that stuff in the show notes for everybody. Mm-hmm. Was there anything we left out that you wanted to tell the good folks listening? No, other than just thank you for having me. This has been awesome, and I just hope my prayer is that this, episode blesses somebody and gives them the strength and the courage to, to do what I, to do what I didn't get to do, leave. So, amen. Mm-hmm. Amen. Yes. This has been great. I've enjoyed listening to you tell your story again, and how the Lord's brought you to where you're at now. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you too. And all your listeners, wow, wasn't she great folks? It's an amazing story. So you be sure to reach out to Rosalie and listen to her podcast. I hope this encouraged you. It [00:44:00] sure encouraged me. So thank you so much everybody for tuning in today. We're going to see you next week. God bless you everybody. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Hi everyone. I'm Rio Laine, the Director of Strategic Partnerships at ALPS Insurance. Welcome to our latest installment of the Alps In Brief Podcast. I am joined today by our Chief Financial Officer, Sara Smith, and she is also the president of the Montana Society of CPAs.  Her theme for her term as president is connection, which is a value that runs through both her leadership and her life. So at ALPS, Sara helps guide a growing company that's redefining what it means to lead with purpose. And when she's not leading finance teams, she's often on a mountain bike trail somewhere in Montana. So exploring new terrain, both literally and figuratively.  So thank you so much for joining us, Sara.  Sara Smith:  Thanks, Rio. Thanks for having me.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm happy we got this chance to sit down and chat about all the exciting things you have going on, and I'm really looking forward to our discussion.  Sara Smith:  Yeah, me too.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  So okay, let's start with your story, the beginning. What first drew you to accounting and being a CPA?  Sara Smith:  That's a great question.  When I was in high school, I took accounting and they taught the class with a packet, right? And it had the balance sheet and income statement and all the journal entries. And it was such a neat and clean process, and I really enjoyed that. But when I went to college, I thought, "I am much too exciting to be an accountant. I have way more things that I would like to do and this seems really boring." So I went the long way. I got my undergraduate in marketing and management and got my MBA, and then discovered accounting and pursued my CPA after that.  Rio Laine:  Oh, awesome. And did you kind of revisit that love of that kind of order and the balance sheet and all the nice orderly parts of it?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. I think the thing ... There's a misconception about accounting that it is very black and white. And in reality, it's really messy and it has a lot of shades of gray, which make it much more challenging than it looks on paper.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Oh, interesting.  So before joining ALPS, you spent a lot of time working for a variety of companies, including Target and Montana Rail Link. So I'm very curious, can you tell us a little bit about that path and what eventually led you to ALPS?  Sara Smith:  Absolutely.  So I was an intern at Target when I went to college here at the University of Montana. It was such a fun internship. I mean, we just basically ran around that store and did whatever we wanted. And I thought, "Oh, well, if this is how the work turns out, then I want to join this team." And there weren't a lot of good job prospects when I graduated from college, so I moved to Colorado with Target and went through their store management training program, which was a lot of hands-on management, which was great. I really enjoyed it.  It wasn't long into that process though that I realized that this was not for me. Retail was not going to be a long-term career. And I utilized their program to pay for graduate school and I went and got into my MBA program.  So I did that for a couple of years, and then 9/11 happened and decided to move back to Montana; and had a friend of a friend that worked at Montana Rail Link and got in the accounting department there. And I didn't love it, to be honest. It was not my favorite place, mainly because of culture.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  And so my advisor suggested that I try ALPS, and I've been there 22 years.  Rio Laine:  Wow. Yeah, it's true. I mean, culture is such an important part of a workplace.  And so in terms of ALPS, I mean, obviously the culture was appealing, but also is there anything else that made you feel like it was the right fit?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. I came in in a strange part of time in ALPS' history. They were on this really kind of creepy second floor and the doors were closed all the time, and it wasn't actually a very welcoming type atmosphere. And so I really found solace in the accounting department. They liked to have fun, they played jokes on each other. There was just a lot of laughing.  Rio Laine:  Mm-hmm.  Sara Smith:  And so that's something that I really, really enjoyed.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Oh, that's awesome.  And I mean, there's still a lot of laughing at ALPS, which is really nice. I mean, now we're on a different floor and it's much more open and nice, so ...  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  Oh, that's awesome. Well, we're obviously very happy that you're part of the ALPS team.  Sara Smith:  Thanks.  Rio Laine:  And you're a really important part of it. I mean, really, you literally make the numbers work, so ...  All right. So let's shift our focus a little bit and talk about the idea of connection and how that plays into your kind of leadership philosophy. You know, you made connection the central theme of your leadership this year kind of personally, but also at the Montana Society of CPAs. So I'm curious to know what inspired you to make that your theme?  Sara Smith:  So there were three things that actually fed into that. First was just from an organizational perspective, people weren't coming to things in person, right?  Rio Laine:  Oh yeah.  Sara Smith:  They were choosing the online option. And then my guess is they were likely multitasking, right?  Rio Laine:  Yes.  Sara Smith:  And so they're missing that opportunity to connect in person.  And then the second thing is the people that did come, you would go to a table and they'd all be on their phones. Right?  Rio Laine:  Oh yeah.  Sara Smith:  And so that is also very challenging. It's hard to connect when you literally have your nose in your device.  And then earlier this year, I was on a flight, and I had a woman sitting next to me and she started to talk to me. And I just wasn't sure if I was going to take the bait, if I was in that place to have that sort of conversation on a plane, and I ultimately decided, "Yes." And we had such a rich conversation and had a lot of connections about a lot of different things that I didn't anticipate, and I actually went and had coffee with her a few months later after she got back from her travels.  Rio Laine:  Oh, really?  Sara Smith:  And so if I had not said yes to that, I wouldn't have formed that new connection. And so that really has just stuck with me, right? You got to say yes in order to engage.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, absolutely. I love that.  I love that you made a new friend on the plane too-  Sara Smith:  Right?  Rio Laine:  ... Because yeah, you never know sometimes.  Sara Smith:  Yeah.  Rio Laine:  I travel a lot and you're like, "Am I going to have this conversation?"  Sara Smith:  Yeah. Right. Exactly.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, yeah. I'm happy you did. That's pretty amazing.  So it sounds like kind of your approach to connection is the idea that it not necessarily comes from doing more, but from being present and kind of saying yes to that. So I mean, what does that mean for you in practice as a leader, but as a person? I mean, aside from saying yes to airplane conversations. Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  I think that one of the most important things is just not being distracted. And whether that means you put your phone away, you turn it off, you put it someplace where you can't access it, I think that's step number one.  Rio Laine:  Hmm.  Sara Smith:  And then you really intently listen with your whole person and try to understand what that person is really saying to you. I think those are the two things that I really try to take into practice. And it can be hard some days.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. So unplugging and active listening.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Both of which, yes, are definitely difficult, especially we live in a time when we're so tied to our devices and we're just expected to be available every second of every day, and yeah, that's a difficult thing to accomplish. So it's ... Yeah, kudos for making that a priority.  Sara Smith:  Right?  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  So in your role as kind of CFO for ALPS, how does that idea of connection show up in how you lead and make decisions?  Sara Smith:  Right. So I think one of the pieces of my job that is really important is building trust, right? You have to trust the numbers, you have to trust what the data that we're looking at is saying, and just the overall data set that you're looking at. And in order to get comfortable with the numbers, you have to be comfortable with the person, right? And you have to have that trust.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  So I think building and establishing strong relationships with the people that I work with is the number one way to build that trust and connection.  Rio Laine:  Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that is a really, really good point. If you don't trust the person, you're not so sure about those numbers.  Sara Smith:  Right?  Rio Laine:  Yeah. And when you're growing, the numbers are really important, so ...  Sara Smith:  Mm-hmm.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Oh, that's pretty awesome. I love how that kind of plays such an important role in your life, but also your leadership. Yeah, that's pretty great.  So let's kind of shift again. I want to transition a little bit and talk about growth and how connection kind of plays into that as well.  So ALPS has been growing pretty rapidly over the last few years, and growth can sometimes make it really hard to stay connected, particularly as we have more remote staff like myself and things move faster and change quickly. But it sounds like obviously for you connection is part of that formula for sustainable growth. And so in terms of kind of ALPs, what does sustainable growth mean to you, like financially and culturally?  Sara Smith:  Well, I think at the core of our business is we have to be financially stable and sound in order to pay claims and make sure that our insureds are in a safe place, right?  Rio Laine:  Mm-hmm.  Sara Smith:  And so I think that is at the foremost thought all the time is, are we financially stable, are we growing responsibly to help grow that base, and are we in it in the long term, right? I'm a big believer in long-term thinking, not short-term gains.  Rio Laine:  Yes.  Sara Smith:  And so in order to be sustainable, you have to think more long-term.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. And I love that. I mean, I've come from companies that have been in kind of hyper growth, they've grown very, very quickly, and it does tend to be quite shortsighted and really come at the cost of the people who are doing the work.  Sara Smith:  Correct.  Rio Laine:  And it makes me really happy to hear that we're thinking about it in terms of, is this sustainable for the long term? Because I think that's when you really find success, in that balance between financial success, building revenue, but also people success and culturally and having a strong company.  Sara Smith:  Absolutely.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  So how do you and kind of the larger leadership team at ALPS keep that sense of connection alive as the company grows?  Sara Smith:  Yes. So I think the senior leadership team, we've been through some ups and downs, and so we have a really good, solid understanding of who we are and how we interact. We have a dedicated Teams channel that we joke and talk on, and that helps form that sense of connection, especially when people are traveling so much. It's hard, right? We're not always in the office together at the same time.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  So that's great. And I think that also transcends down as well, right? Having just connection with your teams and building those cross-functional relationships is really important.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's definitely difficult when everyone's on the go all the time and trying to stay connected to that central hub.  What's one kind of practice or habit that you think ALPS has embraced that's kind of maintaining that strong connected culture?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. I think there's probably different things in different departments that help kind of foster their own identity and culture, but overall holistically, I think that ALPS does a Coffee Talk every two weeks and that helps bring all the information together. We get to understand our employees a little bit better. We have an Employee Spotlight, we get to learn more about each other. And I think that only helps build that kind of connection.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Coffee Talk too, especially when we do the Employee Spotlight, getting to see everyone's pictures of their pets and their family and the fun stuff they do.  Sara Smith:  Right?  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good thing that we do. Yeah.  So as a finance leader, how do you see connection influencing business outcomes, whether is it through collaboration, innovation, decision making?  Sara Smith:  I think it's everything.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  I think the one misconception about finance is that we don't know what's going on in the business, but we know everything that's going on in the business. We have to. We have to understand the drivers and the levers that are bringing the numbers into focus and telling a story. So I think that collaboration between departments to get the story behind the numbers is really, really important. And so I think that's where we really serve our purpose, is storytelling among the different groups.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. And I find that misconception so interesting, because I mean ... I don't know, I'm a big true crime aficionado, but if you want to understand what happened, you look at the numbers, you look at the money.  Sara Smith:  That's correct.  Rio Laine:  What are they spending the money on?  Sara Smith:  Right.  Rio Laine:  That's how you know what's going on. So yeah, I would think that you'd know all the things that are going on.  Sara Smith:  That's right. You got to follow the pennies.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  Awesome. So okay, let's kind of shift our focus and talk a little bit more about your personal life and how you spend your free time.  Sara Smith:  Hmm.  Rio Laine:  So you've mentioned that you love to get out in nature and you love to hop on your mountain bike and sometimes be completely off grid. So how does that help you kind of reconnect with what's important? Like how does that help you connect with, I guess, the things that are important in your life?  Sara Smith:  Right, right.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Well, so part of the mountain biking pieces that I've done is bike packing, right? Where you go in the woods and the only thing you have to do that day is ride your bike. You have to get from point A to point B without crashing, keeping yourself hydrated and fed, and not have any animal encounters. But that's all you have to do, right? That is your job for the day. And that really puts things into focus and simplifies your outcome.  And so that, I have really appreciated because it really ... I mean, you could die out there, right? So you get hyper focused on what you need to do today and nothing else really matters at that point.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. And I guess that's a really good time to kind of put down your phone and to be focused, and to practice that kind of active paying attention and being aware of where you are in your surroundings.  Do you feel like that experience kind of teaches you anything in terms of leadership or how you approach it?  Sara Smith:  Oh, absolutely. I feel like there are lessons to be learned every time you do something like that.  As an example, this one trip I did this summer, we found ourselves lost.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  And not really lost, but we had three different mapping devices. We had already gone 20 miles, we had to go 20 more, and what the trail was telling us, it just didn't sit right. It didn't seem right, right? And so one of the big decisions was what to do. "What do we do?" Right? "There's no one we can ask. We have no cell service. We are out in the woods."  And I think trying to make a decision collectively, and when that can't be done, just making a decision and sticking to it and doing it. Because inaction is also a decision and one that doesn't generally work out very well.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And especially if you're in the middle of the woods.  Sara Smith:  Yes. Exactly.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  So it sounds like kind of mountain biking teaches a lot about obstacles and trusting your instincts and maybe builds confidence?  Sara Smith:  Absolutely.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Absolutely.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  What was it that first drew you to mountain biking? Like how did you first decide, "I'm going to get on a bike and do this?"  Sara Smith:  Well, I grew up in rural Montana and I didn't have any friends that lived anywhere near me, and so the only way to get anywhere was to get on a bike. I had to ride three miles to see my closest friend.  And then as I got older, my brother and I shared a car, which also was not awesome, and so I could either ride the bus, which was not very cool when you were 16 years old, or I could ride my bike to school. And so I just started riding my bike and I haven't looked back.  Rio Laine:  Nice. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.  Whereabouts have you gone mountain biking? Is there one place that really stands out to you that was your favorite?  Sara Smith:  Oh boy. They're all so different.  There's a trail in Beartooth called the Line Creek Plateau, and you start riding at 10,000 feet and there's no trees.  Rio Laine:  Oh, wow.  Sara Smith:  And so it feels like you're riding on the moon. It's like all tundra.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  The first time we did it, there wasn't much of a trail, and so the wisdom was, "Stay right. You'll know the end when you get there."  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  And so it felt very kind of mystical in this journey.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  And then it drops to about 3000 feet in very short miles.  Rio Laine:  Oh, wow. Wow.  Sara Smith:  So it's a great ride. It's one of my favorites.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Oh, that's awesome.  I love that kind of idea of like the mystical journey. It kind of sounds like your leadership journey too, right?  Sara Smith:  Right.  Rio Laine:  Like just moving through the world, like, "This is mystical, crazy times." Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Exactly.  Rio Laine:  So speaking of kind of like the leadership journey and lessons in leadership and life, you've held many leadership roles in that span; finance, kind of strategy. So I want to kind of talk a little bit about what you've learned along the way and really what you see for the profession ahead, I mean in terms of CPAs.  So I think my first question would be, how has your view of leadership evolved over time?  Sara Smith:  Yeah, boy. I think that ... That's a great question. And I think about how much you learn from people that you work for and other leaders. And so you take some of that in yourself about either what to do or what not to do.  Rio Laine:  Yes.  Sara Smith:  So that's been a big journey.  And I think as a young person, I thought, "Oh, you eventually figure it all out, right? You got it." And as you get older, you realize you never will have it ever and that the pursuit is constant.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  You're continually growing and evolving as you go along.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, which is kind of a beautiful thing about life. I mean, it'd be kind of boring if you got to a point and you're like, "I have this all figured out. I don't have to think anymore."  Sara Smith:  It's probably just so much easier, but ...  Rio Laine:  Yeah, but it's-  Sara Smith:  [inaudible 00:18:00].  Rio Laine:  Yeah, but it's kind of fun that you don't. Yeah.  So kind of along that lines then, what advice would you give to leaders, especially maybe in a data driven or finance role?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. I think that when you look back at your life and you think about all the things that you've learned, most of that learning has come from making a mistake. And so giving yourself some grace when you do make a mistake. Just don't make the same mistake again, but really be willing to take a look at yourself, why you did it, and then how do you evolve to make it so it doesn't happen again?  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, that kind of personal accountability is really important.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  I think it's also something that's very difficult for a lot of people too. It can be a humbling experience to learn that you're not perfect and that you have to improve some stuff. Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  Yeah, that's really good advice. Yeah.  As the president of the Montana Society of CPAs, what do you hope to accomplish under your term this year, kind of in terms of connection?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. It's so hard because when you start this ... My presidency is only a year, and so you wonder how much you can actually get done. But then I also go back to my experience on the airplane and how just one small interaction can make a big difference.  Rio Laine:  Hmm.  Sara Smith:  And so I think that my challenge to our group is, "What kind of connection can you make? Can you make one connection this year that's new or different? How do you engage?" And my hope is by next year at our annual meeting, we have more people there, and more people talking to each other and I see less phones out.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good goal. It's a good goal to have.  And I know they say ... Well, a lot of professions are evolving quickly, but the accounting profession is definitely one.  Sara Smith:  Mm-hmm.  Rio Laine:  You know, technology, automation, new expectations. How do you think connection can help the profession stay resilient and human?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. Well, I think the one thing is, I was just at a conference with a bunch of other CFOs and there is a lot of hesitancy to allow an AI bot to tell us what the numbers look like, right?  Rio Laine:  Hmm. Mm-hmm.  Sara Smith:  And it's that fundamental question about trust again.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  How do you get trust from something that's not alive and real, and how do you trust that number? And that's going to take some time, and you're going to have to have not accuracy of 60%, but accuracy of 100%. And we're just not there yet, but we're going to get there eventually. And so I think it's still continuing to build that trust one day and one person at a time.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And also, I mean, AI can't even figure out how many fingers a human has. So I feel like it probably shouldn't be trusted to run the numbers just yet.  Sara Smith:  Not yet.  Rio Laine:  It'll get there, but yeah, not quite yet.  Sara Smith:  Yeah. Not yet.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  So what is one piece of advice that you would give your younger self starting out as a CPA? What would that be?  Sara Smith:  Yeah. I think, again, I would come back to just being open to learning constantly and then not being so hard on yourself when you do mess up, right? I think early in my career, I took things really personally, and that's not ever going to work out well.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  You have to forgive yourself once in a while when you screw up and just give yourself some grace.  Rio Laine:  Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. We could all use a little more grace from ourselves. You're your own worst critic, they say, so ...  Sara Smith:  Absolutely.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  All right. So we've got just a couple more minutes. I'm going to wrap it up with one more question kind of tying into your theme of connection for this year. So how do you plan to make space for more connection in your own life this year?  Sara Smith:  Yes. You know, it would not be great if I set that theme and then I didn't do anything myself.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  So a couple of things that I've been working on is just when I am going to conferences or meeting new people is being the one that says hello first.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Sara Smith:  Right? Which is hard for me.  Rio Laine:  It's hard.  Sara Smith:  I'm not a super extroverted person. And so taking that first step is one that's hard, but really important that I do it.  I've been reaching out to old friends that I haven't talked to for a long time, and that's been really fun to reconnect with them; and just having really good, deep conversations about hard things, I think is really important.  Rio Laine:  No, that's fantastic. And it is really hard to be the first person to say hello. For myself, I have a very public facing job and, yeah, it is difficult. You're just like, "Oh."  But it's nice to remember that everybody is probably feeling that way-  Sara Smith:  Exactly. It's so true.  Rio Laine:  ... And they're so thankful that somebody did it.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  So it's good work to be doing.  Sara Smith:  Yes.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  Awesome. Well, Sara, thank you so much for sharing your time and your insights. I'm really, really happy that we got to sit down and have this conversation, and it's really impressive how you've shown that connection isn't just a personal goal, it can be a leadership philosophy and a business advantage really. So yeah, I mean, I think from the trails of Montana to the boardroom, your message definitely reminds us that slowing down and being present often leads to the strongest momentum.  So yeah, thank you so much for joining me today.  Sara Smith:  Thank you, Rio. I enjoyed our conversation.  Rio Laine:  Yeah.  All right. And that's a wrap, folks. Thank you so much for joining us on this installment of the ALPs In Brief Podcast. We will see you again for the next round. 

Tiff and Trish discuss the often ignored practice transition — are you looking ahead for your practice? Ten years out? Thirty years? The two consultants discuss what to keep in line now so that any changes on the horizon are received with minimal panic and damage. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. We are here today with some really, really just fantastic information. We're rounding out the year, if you can believe that. It's almost 2026, so whatever year you're listening to this in, hopefully it's also still super relevant, but we are heading into 2026 here soon. And we thought that it would be really fun to just wrap the year with a couple of different practice strategy kind of.   don't know, just like how to progress where you're at, from where you're at to where you wanna go. Strategy podcast. So I'm just super excited. I have one of my favorite human beings in the world here with me today. I have Ms. Trish Ackerman. She is a prized possession on the Dental A Team team here. She is a traveling dental consultant with our team, which means that she does virtual consulting. So we do.   coaching calls, video calls, we team training calls, all those pieces, you guys know that, but she also travels to practices and sees different practices in person, kind of helping them strategize and train the team and get things working again, kind of oiling that machine. And something I like to say is, I always tell my practices, Trish, and I think you probably feel the same way, I always tell my practices that we have the most incredible practices that join the Dental A Team. We really attract the most incredible people, but   more than anything, I always know that I'm coming into a practice that's running really well. And my job is to find the areas where they just kind of feel a little bit stuck. Maybe something's a little bit inefficient. Maybe there's just something that's like, gosh, if we tweak this a centimeter to the left or a millimeter to the right, kind of I think of like implants, like, you know, you gotta just get them just right. And if we can make that little tweak ⁓ with them in office and find those areas, then their lives become.   less stressful. like to remove the stress. So I always tell practices, gosh, like I just don't get invited to practices that aren't doing well. I'm always, I'm always just so shocked at how well practices are doing. And Trish, I know you've consulted for a while. You've been here with our team for a little while, but you have just so much, there's like a wealth of knowledge behind you and all of the aspects of everything that you've done. And I'm so excited for you to be on this team. I know your practices are thriving because you're here.   We are thriving because you're here and we're all better people because of it. So Trish, thank you so much for being here today. I'm excited to pick your brain on these practice strategies. How are you? Your hair, we already talked about your hair is stellar. I had a weird hair dream. So hair is on the mind. It's like, it's a thing today. So welcome with your beautiful glasses and your beautiful hair. And it's 8 a.m. in the morning. What were we thinking? But this is a great way to start our day. Trish, how are you today?   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:44) I'm doing great. Thanks, Tim. I always like doing this with you.   The Dental A Team (02:47) Okay, thank you. Thank you. That makes it much easier ⁓ when I schedule it that you enjoy doing it. So thank you. I appreciate that. ⁓ I do enjoy life with you. You shed a lot of perspective for me. So thank you. ⁓ Yeah, definitely team listeners. I had this, okay, start over. Marketing, our marketing department, they help us come up with a lot of topics. And then the consulting team, we kind of look at them more like, hey, is this relevant? Is this something that   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:55) Welcome.   Thank you.   The Dental A Team (03:17) we're seeing pop up in our worlds of consulting with our clients and our listeners is this something that's going to be super beneficial. And this topic came up and I was like, gosh, actually, it's kind of super cool to end the year with this because now we get to look into what next year is going to be. And this could be a lot of strategy that helps build, I think, Trish long term visions. It might not be something that someone's thinking about today. Just like I know we have.   you know, lot of new graduates who listen and, a lot of doctors who've been in practice for 20, 30 years, or even three years, five years, wherever they're at on their journey, I feel like this is information that we like to shed light on for all of our practices. That's like, always be prepared. Just like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like we buy houses. We don't have a home and not know the value always. Like we're always making sure we know the value. We're making sure we know, you know, our prices right.   our interest rates are the best that we can get. Do we need to refinance? We're always looking at those aspects, but I think that we forget to duplicate that and look at it in our business as well and make sure that we always know the health of our business. And Trish, when we're building out goals, I know you and I both do this. We like to look as far ahead as we can, like 10 years ahead to say, what could that look like? And when do you want to retire?   Right, when do you think that you want to repair? How long do you want to work? And even if that's 30 years down the road, making sure that at any point we could be ready for that. And so today is really talking about practice transition strategies, what that might look like. And Trish, I want to know from your perspective, you've done quite a few practice transitions, I would imagine, in the history of dentistry that you've got behind you there. What are some of the...   What are some common to start, like let's start just broad. What are common practice transitions that you have seen that you've worked through? Like what does that even mean when a doctor says I want to transition or we say transition in there to understand that? What does it mean to transition? What have you seen?   DAT Trish Ackerman (05:24) What I've seen is doctors that have been with the practice for many, many years, they built their legacy and they are ready to pass the baton to a new dentist. And it's a big decision. And sometimes they're sometimes they have sellers remorse because then they realize that, shoot, maybe I wasn't quite ready. But I have, I have seen it where, I mean, most of the time the sellers are very ready and, the new buyers coming in are very ready. So   you know, it's a transition. We make sure that the doctor, both doctors are aligned, the seller and the buyer, and that it's a good fit for both.   The Dental A Team (06:03) Yeah, I love that. love that. So transition could mean a sell and a buy, right? A transition is a change, right? Transition is we're making a change. We're looking different in the future than we do today. And I agree, I think a couple of pieces that on both sides are super important, I think is that alignment word that you used, right? And making sure that we know where we want to go. I think a seller needs to know where they want to go. Why do they want this practice?   the or why do they want to sell this practice and the buyer needs to know why do I want this practice and being in alignment with that is absolutely key. Now, when we're prepping for selling ⁓ and transitioning, we'll call it transitioning, what are some of the things that you have advised or you've worked on yourself while helping practices to sell? How do you prepare for selling? Like what do you need to make sure is in place if they're not?   We'll take it two ways. Maybe someone's not selling today. They're like, well, one day I might sell. And then maybe someone's like, gosh, I need to sell. want to sell. I'm ready to get out. So what would you advise someone who says maybe one day I might want to sell? How do they keep their business prepared for that?   DAT Trish Ackerman (07:16) Well, that's always the best way, like start a plan. There are times when it's like an emergency and need to sell, when they have the, when they've got the time to plan, you really want to ensure like the, like you were talking about, tip that the selling of the house, you don't sell your house if the flooring is just a hot mess or if, or if the roof is caving in, you get those things fixed first. And in a dental practice, you really need to protect the patient base because the new buyer   or even somebody transitioning in to purchases, what does the patient base look like? And if we're adding a partner, do we have a patient base for them? If we don't, this is the time that we, the doctors need to be hyper-focused on growing that patient base. That also requires like, what does the accounts receivable look like? What is the collection ratio? Is this practice producing but not collecting? And though you do like kind of a full analysis on the top.   five KPIs typically, and then ensure that they are in really good condition. You want your practice to look appealing and you want your practice to be healthy. And when you're selling anything or transitioning in, the patient base is always number one. So if you have the syndrome where the front door is open, but the back door is open as well, we need the time to strategize to get that back door closed to ensure that when we go to sell this new buyer,   The Dental A Team (08:35) Yeah   DAT Trish Ackerman (08:43) or new partner knows that there's a solid patient base in place. And then again, the counts receivable, that's another really big one. That's got to be cleaned up pretty well. Again, to look appealing and to be worth something.   The Dental A Team (08:55) Yeah, I love that. I am in transition. Like we're looking at purchasing a home and we have a home that we're either going to rent or we're going to sell. And what you're making me think of now is that our realtor, I love her dearly. She is one of my best friends in life. And she is like, cool, we can totally do this, but she needs some really nice pendant lights. Like Tiff, got to open that. She's like, I know you've got some storage closet somewhere that's got a ton of, you know,   a ton of decor, like she's like, you gotta spruce this place up. Like, yeah, she got brushing up, this is perfect. And I was like, ⁓ wow, yeah, you're right. And as I'm looking at Zillow and looking at all of these homes, I'm like, ooh, I love those pen and lights and ooh, I love that has black trim. And I'm like, my gosh, actually it's those pieces ⁓ that just sparkle that make you want that thing.   If you want to get a good price, if you want something great for your patients, you want a great person to purchase your practice and you want a great person to carry on the legacy of what you have built and a great person to take care of the patient base that you have worked so hard to get, I think you have to make it attractive and appealing. And I think you're absolutely spot on. The patient base is huge. A doctor buying a practice, a DSO purchasing a practice, like anybody purchasing his practice.   purchasing a practice wants to see that it is valuable. And the value is in the people, right? The patients and the dollars. And I think what you said is exactly true. The flip side of a patient base, you can have all the patients in the world and you can have that back door closed, but if you're not collecting the money, that back door is open. The money's just going out the door with the patients instead of staying in the practice.   That's also an issue as well. So you've got to, you've got to hang those pendant lights and get those systems in place and really, really evaluate if you were, if you remove yourself emotionally from the practice that you've built and you look at it objectively, would this be appealing to you? If you looked at your home on Zillow, you took pictures and you scrolled through those pictures and you looked at your home, would you be attracted to purchase that home? If you weren't emotionally tied to the place. So.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:15) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (11:15) I love that.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:16) And piggybacking on that, when you're buying a home, you're buying a practice, what's your profit look like? I mean, if you're buying something that isn't going to have any value because there's a lot of debt tied to this or like a home, if you're going to purchase a home, but you're paying too much for it because it's really only worth, mean, those are also the things that the buyer has to look at. Is this practice, is it like heavy, heavy overhead? And if so,   The Dental A Team (11:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:43) that needs to be trimmed down along with ensuring that the patient base is strong. If you're gonna sell something, it needs to be profitable to the buyer.   The Dental A Team (11:52) Absolutely,   absolutely. I think that's spot on because you're gonna look at a home and you're gonna say, okay, well, this is the dollar amount that they have it listed for based on these photos or based on what I see in person. This is what I'm gonna have to put into it to make it what I want it to be. So I'm gonna take that into consideration. So if you've got a house priced at 525 and I know it's gonna take 60, $70,000 to...   make it valuable to me, make it the home that I want. Now my brain is saying, this worth 600,000? Because that's what I'm actually putting into it. And then my offer to you is gonna take into consideration the upgrades that I feel I need in that home in order to compensate for the price that you've listed it for. Yeah, I love that. when you're talking strategies for, we always, think, let me start over.   DAT Trish Ackerman (12:35) Absolutely.   The Dental A Team (12:44) Prepping for selling, I said this in both versions, right? Because I want a doctor to purchase a practice and think that way, right? I want you to think if I were to sell this down the road.   Like how can I invest, reinvest back into this practice to make it the best that it possibly can be? I want this practice for a long time, but we're not gonna be here forever, right? We're not, we may be in our home forever, but the likelihood of that in this day and age in 2025 is unrealistic. We're not gonna, we're likely not going to serve the term of our loan agreement in our home. Like we're going to move on, we're gonna find something new and the same is true for your business. So making sure, we don't know.   We don't know when that's going to happen. We might say, want to practice for 30 years. Great. But if you wait for 25 years to get ready to sell, you're going to be in an emergent sell situation. So day one today, making sure that you think like a seller doesn't mean that you're selling your practice. It doesn't mean that you're not there for your team. It doesn't mean that we're not here for the culture and that we're not here for the growth and the patience. It means we're preparing for everything.   That will set you up for success because you're constantly thinking about the value and about the return on investment that you're making. think that thinking like a seller, thinking, what would I do if I were selling this practice right now, helps you objectively make decisions in the practice, in my opinion. ⁓ Emotions are really, really hard. Emotions are fleeting. Emotions will drive us and we have to be able to step outside of that.   to make really great business decisions most of the time. Now, Trish, me, I always tell my practices, know the worth. So get valuations, like every so often. How do you feel about that? How do you suggest people do that?   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:35) totally agree. think at least every five, five to seven years get a valuation of the practice because that'll also help you guide. If let's say it comes in pretty low, that will give you the valuation company can give you all the tools and the map that you need to get the value up. And if you just sit stagnant, which unfortunately a lot of doctors do, and then they're super shocked because the practice isn't worth anything.   And that is what we don't want to happen, especially to our clients, know, if this is something that they're talking about. So if the valuations, sure, they might cost something, but get it done anyways, because you can continue. It's almost like when you remodel the home. I love using the house as the analogy and get the valuation consistently through the years, because they don't know what they don't know. And when you're only in those four walls all the time,   You don't see what you can be actually doing. the valuation, that totally helps, because it gives all the current owners new perspective, new ideas.   The Dental A Team (15:45) beautiful. love that new new perspective, new ideas. I love that. And I think I'm addicted to it's like a it's a problem. I am addicted to model homes, just going and walking model homes. I love it. I love walking model homes because I love new perspectives and new ideas. And walking into a model home for me is like, ⁓ my gosh, I wouldn't have even thought to do that with that kind of a space. Right. So I'm getting to see   DAT Trish Ackerman (15:56) I don't know how to tell you.   The Dental A Team (16:14) all of these interior designers work their magic in brand new homes, fresh and new, and I can go, my gosh, I can do that. And we we toured a spec home, meaning it was already built, ⁓ but nothing's in it. it's new, but not all the upgrades. But I thought there was the spec home that I'm like, what do you even do with that space? Like that is the most random space I've ever seen in a house. It's just this little cubby in the back of a kitchen.   So I was like, we need to go look at the model home. So we went and looked at the model home and I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I never would have thought to do that. But what you made me think of was that, like touring model homes, right? If we're not getting the valuation, we don't know the value of our home, but we're also not looking at what other people are doing and touring models. We're not going to...   It makes me think of the ADA, the CE courses and the Arizona Dental Convention and the California Dental Convention and going and seeing the floor models of new chairs, new, like getting all of these new ideas and doctors, caveat, it does not mean that we need to implement everything. I do not buy everything I see at the model homes. I just get ideas and then I watch for really good deals, right? But that's where I think we can get those pieces, those missing pieces in something   that I think we have really exciting here at Dental A Team is we have such an amazing community of doctors who are like-minded, but doing things in a different way in every practice. Every practice has their own flair. And when the doctors come together, when they get together at our masterminds and they're in person and they're at our doctor-only masterminds on the first Tuesday of every month and they're sharing these ideas, it's like touring a model home with your best friends. Like, ⁓ my gosh, I didn't even see that.   I didn't even hear it when Trish said that to my team. I didn't hear it that way. I'm to take this back and communicating with each other and getting that fresh perspective, like prepping for selling valuation and have some really good people surrounding you to constantly keep your brain fresh. Yeah, I love that.   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:21) For sure. For sure. The team   is also another, they are also a big factor of this. If this is a legacy practice and there's a hygienist that's been in this practice for 20 years, that is also something that needs to be considered. it can be a little scary when you've got a legacy team, a new buyer comes in and then the seller is out and team goes with.   The Dental A Team (18:26) Yeah.   Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:46) And if we can also like your locking in your patient base, you're ensuring that your profit margins are good, that your accounts receivable is healthy, what's the team going to be doing? Because we also need to strategize for that too.   The Dental A Team (18:55) Yeah.   I love that you said that because I think one of the scariest things to a practice owner or business owner in general is the loss of a team. And I think people shy away from talking about the inevitable because they're afraid that the team's going to be scared and run away. And I firmly believe that the people that are meant to be in my life will stick around no matter what my life looks like. And if I'm prepping for   for selling, like I want my team to know too, hey, I'm here for the long haul, but we've got to make sure that we're super healthy because if we're not super healthy and not a buyable practice, if we can't sell, we're not doing right by our patients and I'm not doing right by you. I should be able to ensure that this business is healthy enough that it would want to be swooped up by someone because that means it's healthy enough that I can pay you. And that's how we do it. Yeah, that was beautiful.   Trish, some things that I picked up from you in the systems and I heard, re-care. You are a genius when it comes to re-care strategy. I have never seen someone pull out a re-care strategy like you do and it's beautiful. So if you all need some re-care strategy, like pick Trish's brain. If she is your consultant, you are in fantastic hands. Your re-care, your reactivation is amazing. So.   I know you tackle those, right? So patient-based, re-care, reactivation, and new patients, which also turns into some marketing, making sure that marketing is working. But then you also said ⁓ AR and that our collections are healthy. So patient-based, AR, and then team. So culture, right? So those are, and profit, profit, yes, yes. And if your AR ⁓ is in line, your collections is in line, your patient-based is healthy.   DAT Trish Ackerman (20:37) prop. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:47) you watch your spending, your overhead should follow those things. Your overhead, typically like to, we love 50%. I love a 50 % overhead margin. Typically what we're gonna see if I'm truthful and honest is 55 to 65%. I really like that 50 to 60 % is really healthy and safe. And I see doctors feel really good and like they can save for what they need to save for and not be stretched too thin, but that 55 to 65 % is pretty common.   ⁓ So, re-care strategy, these are the pieces guys, these are your action items from Trish. Make sure you are ready to sell so that you're not in an emergent situation. If you're in an emergent situation, meaning you're trying to sell within the next one to five years, bust a move. You can still do this. Re-care strategy is in place. We're not losing patients out the back door, meaning they're getting reappointed. They're coming in, your new patients are staying. Re-activation.   So what patients have gone out the back door, who has not been seen in the last 18 months or so, AR, make sure that your collections is super clean. That is a space that doctors get a little scared. Reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, reach out, we will help you with this. And then your profit and your culture. Okay, so watch your culture. Go ahead, Trish, show us what can see. yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:02) I do want to add something to the accounts receivable that just popped in my   mind. I can't believe I left this out. Not only is it the accounts receivable, but also the credits. When you see some practices that have like $100,000 worth of credits, that is also something that it's got to be cleaned up. It's got to be cleaned up before sell.   The Dental A Team (22:11) Yes, yeah.   Mm-hmm.   I completely agree. That was a massive, massive space. Good job. Yes. I agree. We focus really heavily on, by we, I mean the dental community, on the outstanding money, what is owed to you, but what do you owe to the people? What needs to go out?   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:38) Yep. That is a big   one when we go to sell.   The Dental A Team (22:42) Yes,   and I've seen it, you guys, I've seen it upside down. I have seen our AR, our accounts receivable that's due to us is lower than our credits. That's a scary place to be, okay? So watch for those, that was huge stress, yes. So get your re-care, reactivation in line, okay? Get your patients in line, your new patients as well. Make sure that your collections is healthy, so your AR is healthy.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:53) Yes.   The Dental A Team (23:09) Your credits are healthy, that your profit is healthy and that your culture is healthy. Those are the spaces to ensure. then every once in a while, Trish, I love the five to seven years, go get that valuation. Make sure that you know the value of your practice and go walk some floor models. You guys, it's super fun. So if you're bored on the weekend too, like they're open all the time. So there you go. That's where you'll find me. Um, I know I do love them so much. I'm like, oh my gosh, I take pictures. I have pictures of tables and like.   DAT Trish Ackerman (23:28) Perspective and ideas.   The Dental A Team (23:39) lights on my phone that I'm probably never going to use, but I've got them because I saw them and I was like, that's a beautiful table. I'm going to find that. You never know. They're there. All right, guys, go do the things. Trish, thank you so much. I knew you would have just a ton of information for us. And you guys, again, if you have re-care strategy questions, Trish's   DAT Trish Ackerman (23:46) Yeah, you never know when you might get it.   That's cool.   The Dental A Team (24:01) Trish is our go-to gal. We've all got our stuff, but I have literally been in an office standing next to her watching her do it, and I was like, I don't even know how you're doing these numbers. So she's got a lot to teach all of us, and she's your gal. So Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You guys, go do the things. You know where to find us. Drop us a five-star review. Let us know what you loved. Let us know what you want to hear, like I said at the beginning.   We come up with these on our own, you guys. We just kind of dig through our brains and think what could be healthy for practice, what could somebody want. So if you have ideas, if you have things that are burning desires, please reach out. We would love any suggestions on topics that we're maybe missing. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And thanks guys, we'll catch you next time.   DAT Trish Ackerman (24:43) Thanks, Tiff.  

“Quand tout est possible, faire des choix devient très difficile.”Ce constat, je l'ai posé (encore) au fil d'une discussion avec ChatGPT.Et il m'a donné envie de te parler de ces fameux NO GO ✋ : ces choix qu'on fait pour se fermer des portes… volontairement.Je t'explique pourquoi c'est salutaire, comment je m'y prends, et dans quels domaines tu peux tester ça toi aussi.Spoiler : t'as tout à y gagner.Et toi, est-ce que tu as déjà tes “nogo”, tes panneaux sens interdits ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

In this explosive episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with actor, entrepreneur, and mob insider Gianni “Johnny” Russo, best known for his unforgettable role as Carlo Rizzi in The Godfather. Russo pulls back the curtain on a lifetime of stories that stretch from Frank Costello and Joe Colombo to Las Vegas skimming, the Vatican Bank, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, and even Pablo Escobar. Russo discusses his new book, Mafia Secrets: Untold Tales from the Hollywood Godfather, co-written with Michael Benson—an unfiltered account of power, violence, politics, and survival inside the criminal underworld and Hollywood royalty. This is not recycled mythology—this is Gianni Russo's personal version of history from the inside. Whether you believe every word or not, the stories are raw, violent, and utterly fascinating. This episode discusses: The Godfather, The Kennedy assassinations, Vegas skimming, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, the Chicago Outfit, Pablo Escobar

Our guest for this episode of The Horn Call Podcast is the ebullient Heidi Oros!  Heidi professional freelance hornist in the Finger Lakes area and is a former second hornist with La Orquesta Sinfónica del Estado de México. Heidi is a founding member (2006) of the woodwind ensemble, “i venti dementi,” and has been the hornist with the Swamp College Brass Quintet since 2007. Most recently, she joined the Lake Effect Winds, a woodwind quintet situated in Ithaca. Heidi earned her BM and MM at Ithaca College. She teaches private horn lessons in Trumansburg. Episode Highlights Personal journey on the horn, important teachers/inspirations along the way Keys to Transposition Book: https://www.keystotransposition.com/ Performing in Mexico Organizing performances of Lionheart's Call by James Naigus to honor healthcare workers: jamesnaigus.com Taking time off and coming back to the horn High Range Magic: https://marsgelfo.com/hrm-overview/ Zoom Meetings with Jack Covert/Memorial Concert Importance of the IHS, symposiums, community, etc.

 When it just touches on these really profound themes and it's moving in a way that catches you off guard. Matt Nothelfer is a Committee Member of the Borrego Springs Film Festival and working documentary filmmaker.In this conversation, Matt talks:* Why small, community-driven festivals like Borrego Springs offer some of the best experiences for indie filmmakers.* How the festival creates a filmmaker-friendly environment: lounge, home-baked food, networking, and long Q&As.* The “secret weapon” of Borrego Springs: a local audience that fills a 180-seat theater from morning to night.* Why early-bird submissions matter—and when they don't.* How to spot scammy or low-value festivals on FilmFreeway through community presence, transparency, and online footprint.* Why filmmakers should focus more on storytelling and theme than technical perfection.* The blind-submission, five-category review process Borrego uses to evaluate films fairly.* Why small festivals often have the highest acceptance chances—300 submissions, 70–80 selections.* How writing a thoughtful, festival-specific cover letter can move a film from “maybe” to “yes.”* Advice to emerging filmmakers: avoid chasing 100 meaningless laurels and instead pursue festivals aligned with your goals.Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Here is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. Don't come for me.BEN: Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest and this is The Creativity Education and Leadership Podcast. Today my guest is Matt Telfer, who is a committee member for the Borrego Springs Film Festival. In this interview, we talk all things film festival, how to run a filmmaker friendly festival, and tips and tricks for submitting to film festivals.Enjoy.Matt, thanks so much for joining the podcast today.MATT: My pleasure. Happy to be here.BEN: So, I always like to start with a fun question, senior year of high school, what music were you listening toMATT: right off the bat with a curve ball? Alright, let's lay it out. I got the Talking Heads,BEN: the Cure,MATT: Like, let's see, what else?BEN: New Wave.MATT: Yeah, a little bit of the punk stuff. I mean, we got Pixies were, was I listening to the Pixies then? I can't remember. Yeah, so, uh, the Dead Milkman, stuff like that. The pubs, um, yeah, I had some of their records. You know, it's really frustrating ‘cause I had those records up until like five years ago and I left them at a colleague's house and they scattered to the wind.All that good stuff. Yeah. Anyway, I'm still a little bitter about that, but That's okay. My colleagues, my colleague was a friend and he, he deserved them.BEN: So you are a committee member at the Borrego Springs Film Festival. What? Yes, sir. And, and you've, you've held a variety of roles there and, and off air, you're saying sort of lately you've been focused on.You know, the pre-production of the festival, the website, getting the materials together. Correct? Correct. Reaching out to filmmakers, et cetera. Talk to me, talk to us about what are the fundamentals of running a good festival?MATT: Well, our context is that we're super small and modest. Uh, like we were saying before the interview, uh, officially started, we are literally a, a tiny little village in the middle of a giant state park.Actually the biggest state park in the lower 48 states desert community. We're actually just south of Palm Springs and, uh, there's like 3000 full-time residents here and, uh. So running a film festival in a place where there's literally. Not really a commercial market, it's a different type of animal.And um, so we kind of do everything on a very tight budget and we try to personalize stuff as much as we possibly can. We, since we can't really throw a lot of money at stuff, we just do everything we can in other dimensions.BEN: What's an example of that?MATT: Just trying to be considerate about stuff, uh, being friendly to filmmakers that are willing to submit and to get, and that also get accepted. So when they come here, it's a personalized experience. We work pretty hard on creating a filmmaker's lounge where folks can gather and network with each other throughout the entire uh.Five days of our film festival and while they're at the film festival and they're talking to each other, we also have food available for ‘em. One of our great committee members, her name's Pam, she literally will bake stuff in the evening and bring it in in the morning. So you have fresh pastries, cookies, coffee, like fruit vegetables, just everything laid out.And you know, there's really not a huge expense to do that, but you need like the right people to do that, so that's the thing that kind of makes our festival a little bit. Different, I guess in a way is like there's a personalized aspect to it and we spread that type of attitude across all our stuff.So we're gonna have like four parties during the entire festival, and all those parties have similar type of vibe.BEN: The reviews that I read online, um, on film freeway filmmakers were saying that it is, it's a film, it's a filmmaker friendly. Festival.MATT: Yeah. Because, you know, that's what we can do. Mm-hmm. Like, you're not gonna travel to a remote place in the desert and, you know, run into a bunch of industry folks.Usually there are exceptions to that. And, uh, as our. Film festival has gotten a little more solid, and we occasionally have some industry people coming in. Most of the time it's indie filmmakers. You know, we might have some elbow rubbing that this kind of neat. But for the most part, you know, these are just small independent filmmakers trying to do their thing and.Wanting to share their films with an appreciative audience. And aside from, being very personable, uh, with the committee and with the staff that run the film festival, one of the great things about our particular film festival is that the community is a huge part of what we do. The event they show up, we have 180 seat theater and it's full from 10:00 AM in the morning until eight o'clock at night.Oh wow. Every block and wow. It's been that way since the beginning, and it's not because of anything that we do on the committee, it's simply because the community wants to be a part of it. And so that's kind of our secret weapon, is like you show up as a filmmaker and like, oh man, I got, I got scheduled for the 10:00 AM block.They, and then they, they show up and like, what's going on here? This is look back. And then at the end of it, you know, there's an extended q and a. We don't. Push our blocks back to back really tight and there's plenty of time just to like relax and having interaction with folks and some q and as will go on for like a half an hour, if not more.And it's just, you know, so that's a unique thing that just kind of emerged without effort. And we take credit for it and we're excited that we can offer that. But you know, it wasn't any, it wasn't by design, it was just kind of like, cool. This is working.BEN: As far as festivals go, it sounds like filmmaker heaven.MATT: Well, you try to, we definitely try to be. And the dude that got this whole thing rolling, his name's Fred G and he has lived in this little community for a really long time, and he's a great guy and he's one of the reasons why a lot of people show up because, you know, he's just one of those kind of like community, uh, he's, he'll be really upset if I use this phrase, but he's like a town elder. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So just having that type of guidance and having that type of person that can kind of unify the entire event, I. Is really great. And again, like I said before, it's kind of our secret weapon is that we have like this great community that's willing to be a part of a filmmaker's storytelling in so much as like they'll sit there, they'll react to it, they'll ask questions about it afterwards.So yeah, if you're. A filmmaker that wants your film to be seen by actual eyeballs and actual people that are engaged. Mm-hmm. Then film festivals like ours, which there are many around, around the world. You gotta search ‘em out. As a filmmaker, you've gotta. Start getting discriminating. You've gotta really pay attention to what films are film festivals are offering and try to be a part of those kinds of environments, if that's what you want.BEN: So this is great because you're, um, you are part of the Bgo Springs Film Festival, you're also a working filmmaker. What are some other festivals that you've attended or know about that have a similar sort of filmmaker friendly vibe?MATT: Full Bloom film festival in North Carolina for sure. The WYO Film Festival in Wyoming, we enjoyed that a lot.My wife and I who are documentary filmmakers, we've taken our film films there. And again, you know, it's the exact same recipe basically, you have a core group of citizens that are willing and able to show up and be a part of an event. So when you sh, when you arrive as a filmmaker and you sit in the audience, you're not alone with, or if you're in the audience and you're only with other filmmakers there to screen their movie, you know?Yeah. You know that, you know that feeling. We've been there, right? We've been, we've all been there and, and we don't. Film festival is like what we're talking about right now. They don't wanna offer that. They want it to be something, even if they sometimes fall short, which has happened with us, we've had blocks where, maybe there's only 50 people in the audience and, you know, half of the audience might be filmmakers.But that is such a rare thing anymore. You just wanna be offering something to filmmakers. Make them feel appreciated because we know how hard it is to make these things and even and to be willing to share that in front of other people and, ask and answer questions it's a special thing and we wanna nurture that as much as possible and sort of those other film festivals.Love it. Yeah.BEN: Yeah. So we, I, I first came across you on Reddit on the film festival subreddit, and you were offering good advice and thoughts on, for filmmakers applying to festivals, how to think through strategy. So I guess for all, yeah. I mean, did you hear Yeah, help us out.MATT: Yeah. Did you, when you were reading that stuff, I mean, what kind of hit you as like the most relevant?BEN: I think it's two things and since I, I just have a documentary. I finished and am submitted a film festivals. I've read a bunch of stuff. Seen a bunch of stuff, so I may conflate some of the things that you said versus something I saw elsewhere. But two things. That's all right. I'llMATT: take credit for it.BEN: One is know what your goal is ahead of time, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. To, be it the, be it a filmmaker friendly festival with good parties and events and networking. Is your goal to get exposure? Is your goal to meet people in the industry? Is your goal mm-hmm. To get laurels? Those are all different worthy goals, but they all will change your strategy and your approach for film festivals.And the second is, you know, submit to, don't submit to 50 festivals. Submit to 5, 6, 7, see what the results are and then adjust from there.MATT: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, when we're talking strategy, that's so important and, and we can speak about it from the perspective of the Borrego Springs Film Festival because, you know, knowing the context of the type of festival we are now, if you were a filmmaker that was searching out, let's say.A bunch of like publicity for, you know, some type of, media push. It's like, would you necessarily want to come to Bgo Springs? Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on how you played it, but. The main reason you would be coming to Borrego Springs, we feel is because you want that personal interaction and you want feel special as a filmmaker and you want to share your stuff with us, and we want you to share your stuff with us, right?So you're absolutely right when you're initial initiating your kind of film festival search as a filmmaker, you really gotta narrow down what your expectations are. And figure that out. I can speak as a filmmaker as well. It's like if you're gonna go someplace and spend money to do so, I mean, at the very minimum you squeak by on a budget of 500 bucks, then that's kind of like dirt cheap to go someplace and then return home.You know? That's still a lot of money. Mm-hmm. And that's, that's probably like. The least amount that you would ever be able to spend and you would need help, like getting lodging, which we try to offer to our filmmakers. Um, you know, how are you gonna, what are you gonna do? What are you going to eat when you get there, which we try to offer to our filmmakers.And, you know, all those things become part of the calculus, right? Mm-hmm. Especially when you're independent, mm-hmm. I would ask you is like when you're trying to submit, what are you aiming for right now?BEN: So great question. So I'm aiming for trying to get multiple laurels and I'm in, in a little bit of a different situation, I think, than most filmmakers.So I, I have an academic background, I have a PhD, and ideally I'd like to I've worked at various universities. In the ideal world, I'd like to go back overseas and teach film at a university. And so in the world, in the world of academia, you know, there's this phrase, publish or perish, right? You have to publish academic journal articles, publish.Mm-hmm. In film, in the world of filmmaking, academia, a film festival run. A film festival. Acceptance is like a journal article, right? Um, maybe if you do a feature film that's like publishing a book, this is sort of, uh, roughly equivalent to getting a, a journal article published. So I want to sort of garner a number of laurels so that I can indicate, you know, this, this short plate at these 10 different film festivals.MATT: Okay, so the credentials matter, right? Correct. It's kind of like that kind of that'sBEN: exactly right. LittleMATT: trophy on the mantle, as it were. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I'm gonna ask you another question if that's okay.BEN: Yes. I feel like I'm getting a All right. Free film festival, um, consulting.MATT: Perhaps, I don't know about that, but when you are pursuing the laurels and, you know, everything's kind of like filtering through film freeway these days. Mm-hmm. So what's your strategy as far as like finding those types of film festivals that you think are going to, allow you to get those laurels on your poster or whatever?BEN: Yeah. Another great question. So couple things. One is it's a doc. My latest is a documentary short, and it's, it takes place in the world of improv comedy. And the two subjects are two black women. So looking at festivals that either are geared towards comedy, towards documentary shorts or towards black themes and African American themes. One of those three or, or, um. Themes of uh, women in, in general. Sure. Well, if I couldMATT: interrupt real quick, please. Yeah. So it seems like you're trying to basically still maintain some integrity as far as that goes. It's like, yeah, I'm not relevantBEN: all like the fly by night, if you submit, we'll give you the, you know, the UP award.Yeah, exactly. Well, that, that's why I'mMATT: asking because. Okay. Because that's why I'm asking because, there are plenty of, you know, weird little festivals that are floating around the mill fly by night, that,BEN: thatMATT: come, that come and go. And if you want to get a hundred laurels on your poster, if that's, you know, what makes you feel good, then you could definitely do that.But at least what you're saying is like, okay, let's make sure that what's happening with my film has integrity, has, has a shape, and has, something that means something after, you get accepted.BEN: Yes. Oh, a hundred percent.MATT: And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, as a small film festival we struggle with getting we just struggle competing with what's out there on film Freeway, let's put it that way.BEN: You know, because Talk about that. Break itMATT: down. Yeah. You know, it's just, as anyone knows that's trying to do this thing, it's like you hit film freeway and they're a great platform. I'm not, complaining about them at all, but there's just a lot of stuff on there that is more or less as a filmmaker or relevant.I mean, would you agree with that?BEN: Oh, a hundred percent.MATT: Unless all you're wanting to do is just get one laurel to put on your, on your poster, so you know. Maybe they offer a little bit of something. But as a filmmaker, I've been to the ones that don't offer much anything aside from a screening and even, and it's like I'm lucky enough to even go to ones that have physical screenings.A lot these days are just like, oh, we'll slap it online and call it good. So, you know, uh, let's be honest, there's a lot that are just out there and they're just trying to churn. Make some money. So as a small film festival, we're competing with that stuff and we've seen our, uh, submission rate decline, not necessarily a bad thing for us.Mm-hmm. But for other film festivals, I imagine they might be getting frustrated with it. We are actually perfectly comfortable with where we've kind of landed and the groove we've been in since the pandemic. Even a little few years before then, and we haven't tried to kind of like change our recipe much.So we're just happy with the amount that we're getting. We're happy with the amount that we're accepting and we're pleased with how we're screening stuff and the opportunities we're giving people. But I do feel, from what I've seen, it's becoming. Uh, it's just, it's a bit, it's a bit difficult to navigate the slop.Let's just break it down like that. Yeah. And I don't know if you're feeling if you're experiencing the same thing or not. I'd be curious to, to see what you, what you say.BEN: For a hundred percent, so I, I made a few documentaries in the late 20, 2011, 2012, and that was right when Without a box, which was filmed free, right withoutMATT: a box.BEN: Started and it was great because instead of having to burn a bunch of DVDs and physically mail them, you could just upload your film and then submit it to a bunch of festivals. Research a bunch of festivals. Great. Coming back to it now in 2025, it's Scam Central and I think unfortunately one of the things you, you have to spend a bunch of time doing is trying to figure out which of these festivals.First of all, which of these festivals are just legit in that they're not trying to just mm-hmm. Get money from you. They're gonna do a virtual screening and that's it. And then once you even get that breakdown, kinda like you said, which are festivals that are legit, that, that have good people working hard, good intentions, you're proud to show your film there versus they're just churning through submissions and fees.And chart, have a bunch of deadlines and a bunch of different slots you can apply for. They're not the exact opposite of how you describe Borrego Springs.MATT: Yeah. And you have to, as a film festival, at least in our opinion over here, it's like you have to bring that value to the table or else why?Why are you really doing it? And if that answer is like, you're just some guy sitting in an apartment somewhere trying to make a lot of money or a living, I don't know if you can make a lot of money doing this.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: Um, but. If you're just doing a film festival that is literally fly by night because you want to cash in, it's like, that's really unfortunate.Now the other side of that coin is like we see a lot of very earnest filmmakers submitting and, uh, they might not be the most technically adept. And they're fresh out of the gate as far as like trying to be a filmmaker. So they're very eager and you know, they just want to tackle everything all at once, and they end up you know, they're not really exercising any discrimination about where their films are going and they end up, you know mm-hmm.Kind of wasting a lot of money in that regard. Submitting, the, submitting, submitting without much, kind of emotional reward from it. And I think,BEN: yeah.MATT: Having some type of like positive feedback about what you're doing is great, even if it's whatever.But. It really helps to have a place to land where you feel like super special and cared for and considered and not just like, oh, I showed up and, it cost me $10 to get into my own movie and it's costing me $20 to, buy a cocktail over here and, you know, those kinds of things.If you're even lucky enough to get that, honestly.BEN: Right. What's your advice on spotting scams when you're applying to festivals?MATT: How to be discriminating as far as like submitting?BEN: Yeah,MATT: I mean I can only approach that from our, my wife and i's own experience trying to get our films into festivals. And with the insight like working on a film festival, I think that helps.But trying to spot ‘em is really, you got to. Try to get a sense if there's any type of community involvement going on mm-hmm. With the festival. And you can usually track that online if you're, you know, if you're a bit sleuthy, and you can find out if it's being supported by the community in some sort of way.Mm-hmm. And it shouldn't take you too long to figure that out with a couple of decent, online searches and follow in a few threads of information. Another thing is, is like if they're kind of nurturing their online presence, you know, it doesn't have to be super sophisticated. You just have to get a vibe that they're trying.And if, if you get that kind of sense, then it's worth the effort. Typically the other thing is you gotta really know what type of film festival that you're submitting to, right? If you're making documentaries, you're not submitting to, you know, a feature film, festival Right. In every festival.So yeah. Core effects. So I, yeah. You know, it's just being, making those obvious decisions. But when you dig beneath that superficial stuff and you get past like the obvious. Really try to get a sense about what you want yourself as a filmmaker when you go to a film festival. And for us it's like getting appreciative eyeballs on the film and giving us fun feedback and having a good time and interacting and, and doing some networking, uh, basically having a party and celebrating your film.Mm-hmm. And I think that weBEN: think about, yeah, sorry, go ahead.MATT: I think that this, that's important for us, so I imagine, and I, I would think that it's important for other people that are making movies as well. Yeah. If we, about, especially independently.BEN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's you were alluding to very little money in it, but, um, there are, there are rewards.Yes. One of the biggest of which is seeing your film in a packed house with an engaged audience. What from a screener perspective, from a film festival perspective, what are some tips you would give up and coming filmmakers, young filmmakers on their short films in particular mistakes that you see et cetera, et cetera.MATT: I would say the biggest mistake, especially as a, a young filmmaker, is concentrating so much on the technicalities of the craft and ignoring the storytelling. Um, you know, we, you mentioned, and we mentioned before about like when we started, uh. Kind of submitting to film festivals. This was basically what, like 15 years ago for both of us now, right?2010s, 2012, whatever. Mm-hmm. The technical back then could elevate you above everything else back then. Like today. You know, look, anyone that has a, has a mobile telephone, essentially has the skillset it takes, or not the skillset, but the technical wherewithal.AnBEN: outstanding camera.MATT: Yeah. Yeah. And the point being is like you can go out and you can create something compelling without the gate of the technical getting in the way. Uh, you can capture it. And it doesn't have to look like a million bucks. It's nice if it looks like, you did a big budget thing on a small budget.I'm not knocking the craft of anything. I'm just saying don't be so intent. Or maybe even don't even worry if like, it falls short technically a little bit. ‘cause I will. Guarantee you that a film is gonna get into a film festival based on if it's a compelling story with a good theme or not. And theme is another thing that a lot of folks don't necessarily appreciate, I don't believe.Just to give you a little bit of insight, our film festival. Is the selection committee are not industry professionals. They are regular citizens. They're just watching movies to help out our film festival. Now, try to imagine what that means. It's like folks don't focus on the technical unless it's an absolute train wreck.They will literally sit down and say, is this something I'm interested in and am, am I engaged with the story? Full stop. So that's where, that's the thing you have to focus on. And if you're not doing that as a filmmaker, okay, maybe you're just, you know, maybe your thing is gonna be, you're just a cinematographer, you're just a sound guy.You know, you're more crafty than you are. You know, a storytellers you gotta find that. You gotta find that place. That would be the main thing, because I know we, we. This, I think this is a good thing about our particular film festival is that we have taken in some films that probably weren't like technically as good as they should have been, but because they are just so.Compelling. We don't ignore it like we do pay attention to the craft, but if a story elevates beyond the craft, we're more than happy to bring those folks in. And when those folks come in, they're like, oh my gosh. You know, it was like we're having a hard time getting accepted to film festivals and we're so grateful that you took our film and we can't believe the response that we're getting.Um, they tend to be the best. Most enthusiastic filmmakers and attendance of anybody. Mm-hmm. They're not cynical, you know, they're not burnt out, they're just like over the moon.BEN: They're happy to be there.MATT: Yeah. And it, and they should be. And they're gonna spread the word ‘cause they, they've created something.Yeah. Wonderful. Now, you know, maybe it's underexposed, maybe it's overexposed. Maybe the audio's not great here and maybe the audio's okay there, whatever. It's compelling. That's the main thing. And you and you as a filmmaker really need to start analyzing. My wife and I do this all the time. It's like, what the heck are we making here?Are we making something that is compelling to us personally? Mm-hmm. Are we making something that's compelling to other people? Mm-hmm. It's two different things.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: I mean, that's right. So storytelling is hard.BEN: Yeah. That's the craft. It's storytelling.MATT: Yeah.BEN: Yeah, yeah. What does your, so you've got screeners, not industry folks, people just who appreciate films and filmmaking.What does your judging sheet or criteria sheet look like with your screeners, and what's the process that a film goes through?MATT: Here's another thing about our particular film festival. We're completely blind. Submissions. You know, we do not solicit anything. It's like early days we were kind of like poking around and asking for some folks to kind of consider us, but we've kind of let that fall by the wayside.Maybe that's one of the reasons our submissions have declined a little bit over the years. One of the factors, but regardless completely blind submission. So. Stuff comes in. We have a bunch of people that are at the ready and they start watching it, and we basically have a five step process.It's like, consider this, consider this, consider this, consider this. And they do that. And they mark it from scale of one to 10. And, uh, from that we kind of start our, fundamentallyBEN: what are, what are the different, consider this. Like what are the categories?MATT: Let's see. I gotta look it up, but it, it basically breaks down to, okay.Are you sentimentally engaged with this? Meaning, is it, is it a subject matter? I love that questionBEN: that,MATT: yeah, it is a subject matter that you. Like just offhand, like, okay. It's a, it's a nature movie. See, I love nature movies. Oh, I see. Are you, you see what I'm saying?BEN: Predispose, I thought, I thought you meant was the film engagement.MATT: No, no. It, no, it's, it's, it becomes both. It becomes both, right? Yeah. Because your sentimental attraction to something is going to create an engagement. So we kind of wanna know if, uh, our regular folks are like just locking into something because they just love the subject matter.BEN: They make the topic.Yeah.MATT: Yeah. Um. Then from there we do actually talk about craft, even though I was saying before, like, uh, don't worry so much filmmakers about the craft anymore, but we wanna make sure that you can hear it. Okay. It's not a total disaster with the audio and you can see everything. Okay. So we ask them to rate it on that scale.And then, um, other, you know, just more nuancey things is like, okay, is the pacing cool? In other words. Did you find it like it was dragging a lot or it was, too fast? How's the editing style? Those kinds of metrics. And there's actually a few other ones in there as well. So all that is just kind of thrown into the pile.Mm-hmm. And then from there we start to weed that out as we come to after like all the submissions come in and from. Once all the submissions come in and our, our deadline has passed, then the committee jumps in and starts doing a more nuanced type of an analytical thing to the films that have been submitted.But I will say that regardless of how we kind of shuffle things, once the deadline is closed, the people that watch our films and the committee members are usually. Copacetic. There's hardly anything that that changes. And, um. The nice thing about our particular film festival too, is like if you're a filmmaker submitting, you know, I'll just, I'll give you the numbers.We essentially get like 300 submissions, so it's not a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and out of that 300 we are running a sub, we're running a screening rate anywhere between like 70 to 80 movies a season. Mm-hmm. So that's a really good. That's a really good, uh, opportunity to get accepted at a film festival, and that's why small film festivals might be the best bet for a lot of independent filmmakers, I think.Mm-hmm. You know, because you have that opportunity to get noticed. So I think I might have tangent, I went off tangentially a little bit there, so if you wanna pull me back in.BEN: Yeah. You went off tangentially, but in a great way. I mean that I want to appreciate the transparency with the numbers. I interviewed, um, the director of the Wyoming International Film Festival, a guy named Rudy Womack, and he was the same.He was like, here's our numbers, we publish ‘em. He's like, most festivals don't, but it just demystifies the process. So it's very helpful.MATT: Yeah. And I'll give film pre credit because they allow film festivals like ours to put those numbers online. Mm-hmm. And, and we've done that. If you hit our page on film Freeway, you can start to figure out what we're about without too much trouble.BEN: What are the, what are the different blocks you run?MATT: As far as like thematically?BEN: Yeah. Yeah. Like at a festival. What are the different categories and blocks.MATT: Aha. See now you touched on something that's kind of unique to us. Okay. So, you know, you go to a film festival and it's like, oh, this is the, this is our dog block.Every movie's about dogs.BEN: Right, right.MATT: Or something like that. We don't do that. At all. So we kind of grab bag, the whole thing. It becomes a very eclectic mix of stuff. Mm-hmm. And one of the reasons we've ended up doing that is because our community has kind of demanded it. Whoa.Interestingly enough. Yeah, so they drove the decision to kind of like stop doing thematic blocks and they wanted a better mix of things because they, again, our folks here, they show up for every single block place is packed.BEN: I just, and sorry to interrupt before you finish, like everything you're saying, it just sounds like there's an iter iterative feedback loop.Between the community in the festival, the film? Absolutely in the festival. The volunteers in the festival. So I just wanna highlight that ‘cause I'm loving everything you're saying.MATT: Well, again, like I said, it's the secret sauce. It's our, it's our weapon that we have our secret weapon that allows us to kind of like elevate beyond our like humble budget.Right.BEN: The community is, but community is letting you know, we don't want thematic blocks.MATT: Yeah. The community came in and said, we, we want mix. So when we sit down and we're sitting through movies, it's like. If we're watching something that we're not in tune with thematically, then you know, you would have to sit there for like an hour and a half and just kind of tolerate it.Whereas now, if like a movie comes on about dogs and for some reason you're just a weirdo and you don't like dogs, that movie will come and go and now you're onto something else, right? Mm-hmm. So. Yeah like you just mentioned, it, it really becomes a cooperative effort between the community, the film festival itself and, and even the filmmakers.And we're kind of proud that it is a little bit ramshackle in that way ‘cause it creates a very organic vibe and weirdly enough. Like at the end of it all because it, it's a little bit random. It is like how folks get scheduled.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: Themes are emergent anyway.BEN: Mm-hmm. It's, peopleMATT: start creating patterns that didn't exist and then it sometimes that becomes really profound.It's like, didn't even think of that. It's brilliant. However oh, the other thing about programming too, that we do specifically for our film festival is that we. We ask our filmmakers, say like, Hey, are you planning on coming here? And if they, if they are planning on coming here, we try our, our level hardest to make sure that we program their films to match their schedule, right?So we don't lay out our program and say, okay, you were scheduled for, you know, Wednesday at 2:00 PM. It's like, well, I'm only free on the weekend. You know, and you wouldn't, you would never be able to attend. We ask first to say, do you think you're gonna be able to be here? And if they say yes, then we try to accommodate as best we can.So again, it's, it's collaboration across the board from filmmakers down to the, to the citizens of our small town.BEN: One of the things I read somewhere, or heard somewhere, is that it's much more advantageous to apply for the early bird deadline. What's your take on that?MATT: For our film festival, not so much, but I, I definitely adhere to that strategy as a filmmaker.If nothing else, it's budget conscious, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's cheaper usually under the initial deadlines you know, you have to take advantage of that. The other thing I guess is like, I will say from our experience, uh, with our particular film festival, if you get it in under the early bird deadline, at least it's there.And you know, you've basically got like four or five, six months for the submission. Crew for that particular film festival to kind of think about it. Whereas if it comes in a last minute, you're not really gonna get as much consideration. It's just gonna have to be more like, uh, an initial one-off type of decision.SoBEN: are there other, and I mean the, the most important advice right, is always make a good movie outside of the movie. Yeah. Are there other ancillary things that. Can move the needle at all. Cover letters, director statement, press kit, stuff like that, or it's not, uh, it's negligible.MATT: Hmm. It's neg negligible to an extent in so much, it depends on how you frame it as the filmmaker.Mm. And let me, I'll try to explain. So every year as a film festival, you just basically get cover letters. It's like, oh, take my film please. It's about this, it's about that. But it's a cover lever, co cover letter. It's, uh, copy and pasted. You can tell. You can just, you just know. It's like, okay, they're making an overture to us, but they're also making an overture to like a hundred other film festivals.It's like if you're gonna write to a film festival and say you want in, just make sure that you actually acknowledge who you are sending your film to. Don't just say, Hey, Borrego Springs, I wanna be in your film. I like Borrego Springs, mm-hmm. My parents went there once and I've always been com I've always been interested in the desert and how awesome would it be?See, that tells us that you're paying attention. Right?BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: That you're trying. We're trying. We just want the filmmakers to try as well, as far as like trying to make any requests to get preferential treatment, and it's totally cool to ask for preferential treatment. By the way. You can say, I see that you're a small community.I just made a film that's, that takes place in a small community. We might be a really good fit. That kind of thing matters, right? An email overture works. Yes. An email overture doesn't work. No. It's both things at once, depending on, it really depends on how you write that letter. So if you wanna invest the time and effort to try to impress a film festival, just make sure that.You understand what that film festival is and really think about if what you're offering, the film festival is something that they might want. And if you can, if you see a, a common thread there, write about it in a letter. And even if it's just one sentence, it's like, then we know on our side that this person's paying attention and that that kind of matters.It does matter. So at the end of the day, when you're take, when you're kind of like really trying to figure out your cutoff, if your little film happens to be on the bubble, guess what? It might get into film festival, right? Mm-hmm. Because you said that you have a connection to this place, and I think that's fair.I mean, what, does that make sense?BEN: Yeah, for sure. So the festival is coming up in January, is that correct?MATT: Yeah, we're in the middle of gearing up for it right now, as a matter of fact. Nice. I gotta run out to the, to town here in like a, like 15 minutes actually to do some stuff for the film festival.So yeah, it's, it's, well, today we're shooting, um, a little promo, uh, thing that we're gonna run, run during. At the beginning of the blocks, and I'll be doing that with Fred G the chairman of the board. Yeah, that's nice, fun stuff. We try to have fun with things, so. Yeah.BEN: We do littleMATT: skits and whatnot during the award ceremony.It's, it's goofy. I love it. Cheesy as hell, but we like doing it, soBEN: I love it. Oh, that's actually something that I sort of, in, in, in my cover letters, which I try to. You know, write tailored to the festival. Especially the ones in California say, well, the film's about this improv duo and mm-hmm. We accepted, we'll come and we would love to do a little improv performance for the festival attendees.Um,MATT: I will say this too, because we're such what you just mentioned. I just want to piggyback on that for a second. So you said in my cover letter I'll say, we're willing to attend. It's like if you say that in a cover letter and you mean it, you, and you're willing to do that. Yeah. That's good. Especially for a festival like ours.We want filmmakers to come here. We wanna treat ‘em to a good time. We want them to be part of something that's. Big in the community and the community wants that as well. So if you're here and you're willing to be here, then that matters.BEN: I love it. Well, I mean, everything I'm hearing about Borrego, like literally I just reached out ‘cause I wanted to just talk film festival submissions, but now I'm like, Ooh, next year I'm definitely gonna submit to, uh, to Borrego.MATT: Yeah, I know this was supposed to be like a strategy session and here I am bragging about the film festival. That'sBEN: No, no. It's exactly what I, what I want. It's great. Last question. What's a, what's a. Documentary that blew you away recently?MATT: So, okay, so last year at our film festival, there was this really cool documentary called Dale. Have you seen it?BEN: No. Tell me about it.MATT: So Dale is like this older woman and she's the first basic Asian American that was in the, um, uh, Los Angeles orchestra, the Los Angeles Phil Harmonic. Okay. And essentially all it is is.I say all it is like, it's a very profound kind of retrospective of what she did to get to that point and you know, her views on things and it's just, and the music that was involved, just very beautiful, very poignant and simple. And. So when, when you have like movies like this and it's, it's not even a 10 minute long movie, it's under 10 minutes.Mm-hmm. When it just touches on these really profound themes and it's moving in a way that catches you off guard. Those are the things that you can't ignore, right? Mm-hmm. And this is actually, Dale's a good example because, you know, it's not always shot pristinely, it doesn't have to look, perfect. But the story reaches kind of a transcendent level that is really, really nice. So if I would throw in Dale and let me see, uh, the the director of that, his name was Justin Strike. So if anyone, I think it's still on the film festival circuit, so you have that opportunity. Go check it out.BEN: Love it. Love it. Love it. Matt, thank you so much for taking the time. For people who are interested in Borrego Springs Film Festival, either to attend, to submit, et cetera, what where should they go and where can they find you?MATT: Oh, online search, just, you know, Borrego Springs Film Festival. It'll lead you to all the places you need to be.And, uh, yeah, just track us down that way. Pretty straightforward. Take a peek at what we're offering. We keep mm-hmm uh, we keep an archive of the stuff we've done online so you can pull back the curtain and look and say, okay, is this kind of something I'd be interested in?Um, you can get a vibe for it that way. And, uh, that's, yeah, that's kind of it. That's kind of it. I think we've tried hard to make sure that what we offered is pretty transparent, and if you take a look at it and you think it's a good fit, and by all means, send us your stuff. Including you, by the way, so, you know.Yeah, no, you have to submit as well now would definitelyBEN: be submitting early bird deadline next year. Perfect. I wish I, if I was still in LA I'd come down, uh, next month and, and just go to this upcoming festival. It sounds wonderful.MATT: Well, I know. Why don't you just do it anyway?BEN: Yeah, I'll give you aMATT: VIP pass.I that,BEN: listen, I might take you up on it. I still all, well, if you do, it'sMATT: we'll be waiting for you.BEN: You, you know, we're, we're documentary filmmakers. We always have a couple irons in the fire. So I do have one kind of idea of, uh, another doc I'd like to shoot out on la maybe I'll combine it. I'll let you know.MATT: Perfect excuse.BEN: Hey, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm so glad um, we connected and uh, just listen. Our pleasure be fantastic.MATT: Yeah, we're, we're happy as a film festival to be asked to do this kind of thing, so thank you. And um, best of luck to your film too. I'm gonna check it out, so be sure to submit it straight away.BEN: I will. Thank you so much, Matt. Alright man. Thanks.BEN: That was my interview with Matt of the Borrego Springs Film Festival. Hope you enjoyed, please forward to at least one person. Have a great week. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

J'ai lu une newsletter d'Ilise Benun (marketing mentor US) qui m'a fait hocher la tête tout du long.Elle parle de “pipeline” — cette liste de vraies personnes avec qui on a déjà entamé une relation : clients passés, prospects chauds, partenaires…Et elle te propose de revenir vers eux, maintenant. Pas avec une offre agressive, non. Juste un message simple, personnalisé… et une question directe :→ “Tu as un petit budget à utiliser avant la fin de l'année ?”Est-ce que tu consacres assez d'énergie à nourrir ton pipe ? Ou tu te laisses embarquer par la chasse aux nouveaux contacts ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Sconnie Jared joins the boys! But first, Adam had to navigate the Mission Impossible laser field to get to tonight's recording. The boys reminisce on 2000s comedies and some comedy movie hypotheticals. Adam doesn't understand people's fear of geese, or why the heck people are driving farther than necessary! Jared updates the boys on how duck season went and how early ice fishing season has been. Burk tells us about his trip to dsm for a Home Alone screening with McCauley Culkin. In the Merry Meat, Mm!, of the show, the boys continue celebrating Christmas by listing their top 5 Christmas TV Episodes ever, before discussing the top gifts of our (my?) birth year. What a fun trip down memory lane! Hut Hut! Love y'all.

How much money has water damage cost your owners? How much time and money could you save if you were able to detect issues within a property before they became a larger problem?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Nadav Schnall to explore how innovative water and gas leak detection systems are transforming residential property management and to share how these technologies can prevent costly damage, protect tenants, and streamline maintenance operations for property managers. You'll Learn [1:14] Nadav Schnall's Background in Property Management [05:06] Innovative Solutions for Leak Detection [11:07] Understanding the Technology Behind Pro Sentry [17:25] Implementing Smart Detection Systems Quotables "If something goes unchecked, somebody's out of town, there's a water leak, I mean, it can just do massive damage." "The responsibility of a property manager is to make sure the building is operating properly, to make sure it's operating efficiently, to mitigate damages, to mitigate risks." "Time is of the essence when something like this happens." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Nadav Schnall (00:00) No need for displacement, no need to wake up in the middle of the night, come back to a flooded home. So we can solve all that   Jason Hull (00:05) All right. Welcome everybody. I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. We have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses.   helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations. And we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. We are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry.   eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. Today, my guest is Nadav Schnall. Welcome, Nadav   Nadav Schnall (01:14) Thank you for having me, Jason.   Jason Hull (01:15) All right, so your company is called ProSentry. We're going to be getting into that. But before we chat about our topic today, which is protect, prevent, perform smart leak detection for modern property managers, tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into entrepreneurism and what finally led you.   Nadav Schnall (01:33) Sure, happy to provide some background. So my background is actually in property management. I was a property manager for about a decade for First Service Residential in New York City. I had their kind of luxury.   group or luxury division. So I did a lot of consulting for developers and lot of property management, opening buildings, know, placing staff, making sure buildings kind of transition from construction to operation. So that was really the lion's share of my background as it relates to property management. Then I went into and opened another company that had to do with the service industry, kind of fire suppression systems, mechanicals, kind of the   the heart of a building, so to speak. And that led me to connect with my co-founder and business partner, John Russ, who is a builder in New York City. I've known him for probably about 15 years. And we came together to do this idea. So really very much so kind of experiencing firsthand.   what we are trying to solve and that's kind how I got into the world of entrepreneurship and into the world of ProSentry   Jason Hull (02:35) Got it. All right. Thanks for the background. So you're an expert. This is your bio, an expert in smart building monitoring. We're going to chat about exploring how innovative water and gas leak detection systems are transforming residential property management and maybe share how these technologies can prevent costly damage, protect tenants, streamline maintenance operations for property managers from boosting safety to increasing operational efficiency.   And in today's episode, you'll get to learn how smart monitoring is reshaping the way you care for your properties and your bottom line. So cool. I'm excited to get into this. So, so now, Nadav, where, where do we start?   Nadav Schnall (03:15) Well, we can probably start in property management. And I can tell you how many times I would wake up in the morning and I'd be checking my phone and then find that I have emails from last night that there was a leak in the building or my super calling me at two o'clock in the morning saying, hey, we had a flood or someone, there was a construction going on and someone left a window open and some pipe froze.   Jason Hull (03:19) Okay.   Nadav Schnall (03:42) And so that's kind of where it started for me, kind of really looking into these operational issues, which in today's day and age with technology, you are able to solve. And so that's where the journey started for me is really trying to look at properties and saying, how can we help common day-to-day occurrences? More so you look at the insurance industries and that's one of the...   biggest pluses that we try to bring to the table is trying to helping buildings with insurance. Water leaks are non-weather related water leaks are typically the top three causes for insurance claims.   And many times it's the number one reason for insurance claims. And so you look at these things and you're saying, there is technology out there. There is ways to substantially reduce that. How do we do that, improve the day-to-day work of property managers?   reduce insurance claims for buildings, reduce insurance rates and premiums, and also improve the life of the residents and tenants that live within. No need for displacement, no need to wake up in the middle of the night, come back to a flooded home. So we can solve all that and we focus in the multifamily. That's kind of our main focus.   Jason Hull (04:53) Yeah, Yeah, I mean, if something goes unchecked, somebody's out of town, there's a water leak, I mean, it can just do massive damage. Yeah, so how do we mitigate that?   Nadav Schnall (05:04) Yeah, so I can tell you a little bit about the technology and what we do and how we do it. first of all, traditional systems that existed so far were really based on Wi-Fi, which is a big difference. And they were more geared towards maybe something that you would do for your house or maybe something you would do for your apartment.   But how do you resolve that in a multifamily world, right? Where even if I am the most responsible resident in the building and I put water leak detection and temperature and humidity and maybe gas, you put all detection technologies in your apartment, you can still get leaked on from your apartment above. Something can still happen. And you just said it, right? A resident that may be away. And we have this actually. is an actual...   know, claim that we were able to avoid. In a building, someone, you know, it was a vacant apartment, a realtor came in to show the apartment, walked out to the terrace. It was a classic wintery day. Didn't close the door all the way.   Realtor left, came in, blew the apartment door open and the temperatures started going down and going down and going down. Luckily that building had ProSentry and that building was notified when the temperatures hit about 50 degrees and the resident manager of that building got the notification today that doesn't sound right. Of course, checked the records, found out there was a vacant apartment, ran upstairs, saw that the door was open, was able to close the door, turn on the heat before frozen pipes. But otherwise you would have had frozen pipe and that could have easily knocked out 10 apartments   insurance claims and so on and so forth. So I think that's kind of one of the biggest areas where we can save. And the nice part about that is insurance carriers are starting to recognize us and starting to recognize that we are actually reducing claims inside buildings. We're doing that across the board. We recently did a study across 18 months. We took a bunch of properties and we wanted to see what happened in those properties across an 18 month period.   we alerted those properties to over 6,000 different types of water events, right? Whether it's water or, you know, could be some, some of it can be just be drizzling. Some of could be, you know, a condensate drain and an HVAC unit overflowing, right? So different types of leaks. And then we followed up with the properties. Not one of those buildings and any of those water events resulted in an insured claim.   And so we were able to actually prove to the insurance world that this is a risk mitigative tool and actually the service that we provide, we like to call it risk mitigation as a service. ⁓ And by doing that, we've been able to help several buildings either move from kind of E &S, Excessive Surplus insurance policies over to admitted carriers, which of course are substantially cheaper.   Jason Hull (07:27) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (07:41) or just simply being able to reduce insurance rates, right? You presented a certain risk before, now you present this risk. And so it can help properties both on the operation side, the maintenance side, but also on the insurance side. And I know I said a lot.   Jason Hull (07:53) Yeah.   No, that's, no, that sounds very fascinating. So I can see how this would be very important. So if the insurance companies are not having to do anything on these claims, then you would think they would be very incentivized to get people to implement this.   Nadav Schnall (08:10) That's 100%. So in New York State, for example, where we have a lot of presidents, especially in New York City, we work with a number of carriers that provide anywhere from, this is on the homeowner side, but anywhere from 3 % up all the way up to 12 % premium reductions.   year over year on your homeowners insurance policy. So if you have a building and let's say there's 100 apartments, if you happen to be insured with one of these insurance carriers, you will receive a discount on your premium year over year. their ROI is right there. And then of course we can help on the underlying building insurance policy as well.   Jason Hull (08:50) Got it, okay. So what are the benefits for the, that's obviously a benefit for the property owner, right? What are the benefits for the property manager?   Nadav Schnall (09:00) So, I mean, the obvious would be peace of mind, right? Because at the end of the day, the responsibility of a property manager is to make sure the building is operating properly, to make sure it's operating efficiently, to mitigate damages, to mitigate risks.   And so the advantages of property managerial, first of all, you're able to see what happens in your entire building. So you'll have a dashboard. You'll be able to see each one of our sensing technologies. And I think we've heavily focused so far on water leak detection and maybe temperature detection, which is really, you know, these are one of our biggest sellers, but we do anything from water to gas to oil leaks, to mechanical malfunctions, environmental issues, even rodents. So we have a lot.   know, thermostat. So we have different types of technologies all surrounded under our platform. And so the property manager will be able to see all these sensing, all these sensors across this entire building on one, on one dashboard. It will substantially reduce damages, right? So from a...   to do share responsibility to the building. is very important, but more so it also gives peace of mind, right? That you know that this apartment or this building or this area, because a lot of our installations are mechanical equipment, right? We have a building that had a couple of leaks coming from the mechanical systems. Every time there was a leak there, it leaked into the elevators. The elevators went out, had to call the elevator company out, had to file another insurance claim. And every time that's there, the amount of time the property managers have to spend   to deal with an incident like this, right? It doesn't only start with mitigating the damage itself. You gotta mitigate the damage, you gotta communicate with all the apartment owners, you gotta let them know what's going on. Then they have repairs, they have to coordinate with contractors, they have to file insurance claims, they have to file reports, they have to talk to their boards or their building owners. So there's a lot there. By installing a system like this, it gives you lot of peace of mind and saves you a lot of time.   Jason Hull (10:46) So less damage, less work for the property manager, less stress in having to deal with frustrated owners, frustrated tenants. Yeah, so win-win all the way around. So you had mentioned a few things that this equipment can send for.   So could you go over all those for us?   Nadav Schnall (11:04) Yeah, sure. It's 100%.   So we have, you maybe I started off a little bit in the beginning, we talked about Wi-Fi, but I really complete that thought. So I can start high level. So.   First of all, what we use is use a technology called LoRaWAN. LoRaWAN stands for long range wide area network. So it's very similar to Wi-Fi in the sense that it is a wireless technology that we can communicate over this wireless network that it creates. But indifferent than Wi-Fi, has a couple of major differences, which is huge for buildings, huge for properties, right? Especially existing buildings where you're trying to retrofit a system, which of course you're very sensitive to, right? Because if you're...   You know, if you're doing property management in a multifamily residential building and you have to access every single apartment, no one wants to like start running electricity or opening walls. It has to be really easy to deploy. You come in and come out under 10 minutes. That's what you're looking to do. So this technology, LoRaWAN, what it does is it is a very strong frequency. So the advantage is it can penetrate brick, mortar, you know.   concrete, steel, whatever, whatever inside a building. And you can use one of these gateways. Gateways are similar to what we would call in the Wi-Fi world as like a router. So you would install one of those every maybe three to six floors, I would say, as opposed to a traditional router where you put it in an apartment, you have one for the entire apartment. The downside to it is that you can stream a lot of data on it.   So it's great for the world of IoT and the world of sensors because you don't have to put on that. You just need to say, what is the temperature? I having a leak? Do I have this or do I have something else? So that is a very, very important advantage that this technology has over traditional systems, which rely on Wi-Fi. The other big thing it has is that it's extremely energy efficient. So each one of our sensors will last for about 10 years on battery life. Whereas traditional Wi-Fi systems, probably have to replace the battery once a year, once every two years, depending on the system.   As far as our offering, so we have different liquid sensing technology, so oil and water. We also have gas detection. And for example, in New York City, they passed a law which was now tabled again, but they passed a law called Local Law 157. Every, you know,   apartment or building in New York City that had gas, had to have gas detection. So we were able to help those buildings as well. And so buildings that already had our system had to now comply with a new law, easily just put it on the system, no problem. Temperature humidity, we spoke about. We have rodents. We have different types of sensing. For example, if you want to see the levels of different tanks. So for example, you have a big water storage tank or you want to know what the capacity is of trash or different. So we have devices that can sense distance.   different sensors for different types of mechanical equipment to see where they go, what the status is, are they operating, are they not, are they in movement? Steam traps, we can tell you if a stream trap open. So there's a lot of stuff there. And I think one of the unique parts about ProSentry is that both me and my business partner, John, really come from the world.   And so we meet with supers, we meet with property managers and they say, hey, you know, I really want to understand how I can better see this or how I can do that. And that's what we developed. And so we go out and we figure out what sensing to cloud booth exists for the world and we customize them for the buildings themselves.   Jason Hull (14:15) Got it. Is this system also tie into some of the other sort of catastrophes besides water, like fire, smoke? ⁓   Nadav Schnall (14:23) So   we have a smoke and vape detector, but it is not what you would call your traditional carbon-fiber monoxide type of sensor. And that is because, first of all, it's a very saturated market. There's a lot of companies out there that provide. We have the ability to interface into it. It was just a conscious choice not to get into that yet.   Jason Hull (14:38) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (14:47) Just because you know, it's more of a niche market and that's more of a very wide market. There's also a lot of regular   Jason Hull (14:52) Figure out smoking and   vaping is another thing. Like, maybe four terms, stuff like this.   Nadav Schnall (14:55) Yeah.   So that we do have on the property, on the platform. that is a great sensing technology, especially for like rental buildings or buildings that have passed no smoking laws in the building. So it can do vaping, it could do marijuana, it could do cigarette smoke. And so we've had that. actually, one of the reasons we developed it, again, speaking to property managers and building owners,   This is a West Coast property owner. he said, you know, one of my main reasons for non renewing leases in my building is because people smoke and people don't want to renew. And so that was one of the reasons we went out. came out with this, with a sensing technology and it can, you know, it kind of tattles on the smokers, but it works with that kind of building. Right. So if you sign into a building, which is a non-smoking building, you should have that same with hotels, et cetera, et cetera.   Jason Hull (15:45) Cool. So I'm going to read a word from our sponsor and then I some more questions we'll get into. So this episode is sponsored by Vendoroo So many of you tell me that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of the property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 %? That's exactly what Vendoroo has achieved. They've leveraged cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders and troubleshooting to coordinating with vendors and reporting.   This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee, learning your preferences and executing tasks flawlessly, never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees up you to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for you and your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio, or even just taking a well-deserved break. So over half the room at last year's DoorGrow Live.   conference signed up with Vendoroo right then and there after hearing about it. A year later, they're not just satisfied. They're raving about how Vendoroo has transformed their business. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendoroo Visit vendero.ai. That's V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need. All right, cool. So back to...   Back to what you were talking about, Nadeav. I'm curious, this sounds like a no-brainer. Is this expensive to get set up? Can this be turned into a profit center for property managers in some way? How does this typically work for property managers?   Nadav Schnall (17:20) Yeah, sure.   So, excellent questions. As far as the cost goes, it is very competitive in the marketplace. Sensors start at about $70 a sensor, depending on what it is. There is a cost for the network, but again, it is not a significant cost. The costs kind of vary based on the size of the building, and obviously there's volume discounts. But, you know, I think it, you know, from a   Profit center, it's an interesting question, right? Because I don't know if you're actively going to make money from the building, from activating the system. However, you will get a return on your investment because again, you're able to, first of all, reduce repair costs. There's no question about that, right? we have...   Examples examples examples of buildings that have installed our system and have caught dozens of water leaks some of which may have turned into Small things or maybe you and an overflowing club, but you caught that and you mopped that up But others are like these slow leaks behind walls and all kinds of areas like that that you otherwise would have not noticed and before it became mold and stuff so hundred percent you save money on that from a repair across perspective and   Jason Hull (18:09) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (18:24) on insurance front, is really one of our biggest areas that we're focused on is trying to help buildings reduce insurance costs. And so in that sense, it does turn into a profit center, maybe not the traditional profit center as a fee for it, but you do save on other repairs on insurance costs. So in that sense, yes, you do make money on that.   Jason Hull (18:42) So, Nadav, a question. So you've mentioned multifamily. There are a lot of people that listen to this podcast that also do single-family residential, or maybe they do individual condos, or they do short-term rentals or Airbnbs. Do you find that this makes sense for those scenarios as well?   Nadav Schnall (19:03) 100 % it does. We focus...   only on multi-dwelling, in other words, we're a B2B company in that sense, unless maybe there's a situation where there's someone who manages multiple individual condos, let's say, right? Or multiple Airbnbs and they want everything on kind of a dashboard and maybe that would make sense. There are solutions out there that focus on the single-family world, that are Wi-Fi based and they're meant for that. We are really more of a commercial grade.   solution, right? And that's kind of how we set ourselves up. And that is really the big differentiator with us is that we're really focused on whole building solutions. We have automatic border shutoff valves, for example, which I haven't even mentioned before. But for example, we have a commercial building.   where the building owners have no one at the building over the weekend and actually no one in the building after I think it's 7 or 8 p.m. till they come back at like 6 or 7 in the morning. So they proactively shut the water to the building when they leave and no one's there. So they don't even want to take the risk. Of course all of our sensors can connect to the automatic shutoff app and say hey if there is a leak we'll shut that off, we'll shut the water off. They just want to they just put it on a schedule and proactively shut it. So in that sense if you   have single family or Airbnb managers, cetera, et cetera, you can all control it even from the app. You don't even have to be at the property. And you can just shut the valve off and shut the property. So if you're going to go away and let's say you want to winterize the property and shut the water off for a prolonged amount of time because you're not going to be there going on vacation. So you can do that with the system quite easily.   Jason Hull (20:35) Interesting. for somebody that's like an Airbnb and they wanted to get this set up, and they wanted like maybe water, auto water shut off, some gas detection, you know, a couple of the most obvious important ones, what would it roughly cost for them to get that property outfit?   Nadav Schnall (20:53) I mean, if it's a, if let's say we're talking about a single apartment, maybe like a one or two bedroom, you're probably talking about a one time cost of anywhere between 300 to $500. If you're in, if you're in that kind of situation, if it's slightly bigger, it all depends on the number of sensors. But again, if it's about $70 a sensor, how many points of water do you have in your, in your apartment? And then that's how you do the math.   Jason Hull (21:18) Got it. So typically sensor per maybe bathroom or water.   Nadav Schnall (21:22) Yeah, you'd put   one to two per bathroom, right? Depending on how many, if you have a tub or a shower, we typically catch that with another sensor that would be placed nearby, maybe behind a toilet. Sensors are very sleek, non-invasive. They don't actually, many of them, this is actually a sensor. They don't even look that way. So it's good. They're discreet. They go behind toilets, under sinks and so on and so forth. And so it's very easy to deploy them as well.   Jason Hull (21:48) Got it. And these don't have cameras on them, right?   Nadav Schnall (21:51) No   cameras. And as I mentioned, because we use LoRaWAN and it is unable to communicate or transmit large packets of data, it is impossible for me to record someone because the data packets are so small. The amount of data that would need to be transmitted just to record a sentence would take days and days and days. So it is impossible for us to do that.   Jason Hull (22:04) Hmm.   Got it.   Got it. Okay, very cool. Well, what else should people know about this solution or whatever questions that people ask, maybe about ProSentry and then how can people get in touch with you?   Nadav Schnall (22:29) So first of all, think the most important thing is, you know, we were built by real estate professionals. And so we really understand the industry and we're happy to consult.   and speak to anyone who has any questions. There's no strings of ties. There's no cost for that. We're happy to give proposals. And every building is unique and every building has their unique set of challenges. And so I think it's important for your listeners to know that that's the world that we come from and we actually enjoy having conversations with real estate professionals. And so if anyone has any questions or wants to discuss, just feel free to reach out. Our website, which is www.prosentry.com.   prosentry.com. Contact us or request a proposal. Very easy to get in touch with us. Or also info at prosentry.com.   Jason Hull (23:14) Very cool. So one last question. If somebody goes to your website, they decide they want to get some of this stuff set up for the property, who actually comes out and gets all this stuff set up and installed? Do they have to get a contractor to do it? How does that work?   Nadav Schnall (23:27) No, so it is extremely, extremely simple. So we have designed the system so that it is easy to be deployed by the building itself. And while we can provide recommendations for installers, 100%, I think there's one, I wouldn't say 100, I think 99%, I think it's one property that actually hired someone to do that. All of our properties, and I'm talking about hundreds of buildings, have installed the system by themselves. It is extremely easy. The system comes pre-configured.   So the gateways are the only component that gets plugged in. Those are the routers, right? So you start by plugging those into the wall into regular outlet. They turn on in about a minute or so and start communicating. They automatically connect to cellular antennas. They automatically...   create this internal private network only to that building. So there's no configuration, nothing else to do. And then you take the devices, the sensors themselves, you download our app, you scan a QR code on the device and all you do is you have a drop down menu and you say, I am in apartment 22B, it's already pre-configured, we'll configure the apartment, everything will be there. And you'll say, I'm placing it by the kitchen sink. That's it. That's all you gotta do. It automatically connects, the sensors automatically connect. And so,   We do speak to some buildings and they're like, yeah, we don't want to take on. so I call it deployment because it's not even installation. It's not invasive. There's no drilling. There's nothing to do there. So we say, OK, we can give you a proposal for installation or connect you with someone who can do it for you. But then once they understand how they get a little bit of a demo and see how it's done, go, oh, this is it. It's very, very easy to install.   one of the features that I neglected to, to, to, to mention, I think is important is we offer, live operator calls to buildings. And so a lot of providers out there will send you like an app notification or maybe an email or a text message, right. say, Hey, but again, property managers, right. We realize that at two o'clock in the morning, no one's looking at their phone to see if you got a text message. So we use an underwriter, laboratory certified call center with live people, not some robo call.   Jason Hull (25:19) and   Nadav Schnall (25:33) and they will actually call you and say, Jason, you have a leak in apartment 22 B in the kitchen.   under the dishwasher, right? And if you happen not to be answering, we will call the next person online. We can have multiple people. And so we'll call the front desk. Front desk doesn't answer. Maybe the handyman, handyman doesn't answer. The resident manager, the property manager, the hotline, the board president, whoever you need. We can put that all under the platform. So that is an important feature and a differentiator, by the way, because there are not many companies that do that. But we do recognize that because time is of the essence when something like this happens, you need to make sure you can get in touch with   Jason Hull (26:01) Mm.   Nadav Schnall (26:09) someone before damage becomes something very small into something really big. ⁓   Jason Hull (26:13) Yeah,   well, it sounds like a no brainer. Sounds very cool. And yeah, I recommend everybody check it out at prosentry.com. cool. Well, Nadav, thanks for coming and hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show. Yeah, I appreciate it. So for those of you that maybe felt stuck or stagnant in your property management business, you want to take it to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We can help.   Nadav Schnall (26:27) Thanks for having me, Jason. This was fun.   Jason Hull (26:40) And for a free training on how to get unlimited leads for free for your property management business, text the word leads to 512-648-4608. That's the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also be sure to join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you would like to get the best ideas in property management, you can join our newsletter.   at doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this episode even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on whatever platform you saw this on. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.  

Dr. Pia Lieb returns for a second part on the podcast. In this episode, she talks about being obsessed with your craft, and why that extra 10% for patients will take you miles. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:10) I love that you, ⁓ I think this is probably what's made you really great. I don't know. I've heard a lot about you. But I think what you do is you make sure that the patients are obsessed with the results and not that Dr. Pia is obsessed. Like you're obsessed with the craftsmanship of what you've done.   You're really talented at that. But like hearing that you let people walk out and go try these on and what is it going to be like before you do it? That to me says that you are so obsessed about the outcome and the result for the patient. And then your job is to make sure you have the most excellent craftsmanship, the best product, the best techniques, the best method to get them the outcome they want. And I think hearing that, I'm just so proud of you. And I'm so grateful to hear that there are clinicians in our industry that   are obsessed about that rather than the reverse. Because I think some people are obsessed about maybe the dollar, maybe about doing these types of cases, but they're not the best at it, or this is what I think that they should look like. You really want to make sure that that patient is like a walking raving fan of you before you even do the work on them. And that I think is very special about you.   Dr Pia (01:17) Thanks, but you know, I like to say that, you know, like, the thing that people don't understand is I'm technically the Hermes of dentistry because I, it takes a long time to make a Birkin, right? It's all made by hand. So are the veneers, hence why it's so hard to get one. But look, I   Kiera Dent (01:39) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (01:42) 22 years old and it still looks brand new because it's the quality of the craftsmanship you know and I tell all my patients you should get anywhere between 20 and 25 years out of the mirror okay this whole nonsense of five years and ten years that's because they want to redo the case and for you to pay them again if you're doing good quality work the only reason they should be replaced is because you have recession due to old age   Kiera Dent (01:55) Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Wow. And you don't have any issues with these super, super thin ones popping off.   Dr Pia (02:17) No, because okay, let me let me explain to you. Let me explain to you physics. Okay. Okay, do you know why they pop off?   Kiera Dent (02:19) Let's talk about this. I'm so, cause a lot of people haven't popped off and it's so scary. So I'm like, let's talk about this.   You know, this is why I'm asking you. Cause I don't like, feel my guess is that they were not bonded on correctly. And that's my guess. Okay. I'm ready.   Dr Pia (02:28) Okay.   No, it's, two things. There's two things. That's   one, but that's the second one. Right. But let me explain to you. Do you remember when you were in high school and we went to, ⁓   Kiera Dent (02:37) Okay.   Dr Pia (02:43) ⁓ chemistry and we had the microscope with the two glass slabs and we were looking for amoebas and all that stuff. Okay, remember how we were all a painting that you know what and we all tried to pry those two glass slabs apart and it never worked? Well that's the same principle with veneers. The thinner they are the stronger they are.   Kiera Dent (02:51) Yep.   Yeah   Fascinating.   Dr Pia (03:06) Okay   and I'll tell you why because teeth you know because you're in the business so teeth we all have ligaments right the teeth are hard it's a hard structure the bone is a hard structure so we have the dental ligaments right they're horizontal they're transversal so those are like the shock absorbers that hold the tooth inside the bone socket. Now   Kiera Dent (03:12) Mm-hmm. Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (03:30) when you're speaking and when you're eating those teeth move microns not visible to the eye but your teeth have mobility just like trees have mobility in the wind right we don't see the trees move unless it's a hundred mile an hour winds but if you have a five mile an hour wind you don't see that tree moving right but it does move   Kiera Dent (03:44) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (03:56) So   when you're doing these 3D print and you're filing like the turkey teeth where you have the little pegs left and the ratio of tooth to porcelain is 50-50 or you're having 60-40 or 70-30 that 3D printed porcelain does not flex.   Kiera Dent (04:05) Yep.   Makes sense.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (04:23) but your tooth does. So that's the number one issue why they pop off. The thicker they are, the easier they'll pop off. And the number two reason is the dentist has no idea about occlusion. Because if you have a premature contact or you have lateral excursions or a protrusive, you're going to pop those off like there's no tomorrow.   Kiera Dent (04:23) True.   Interesting.   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.   Totally. Yeah.   Dr Pia (04:51) So these are   the basic principles. If you don't know occlusion, you shouldn't be doing dentistry. I'm talking about GPs or it's the holy grail of this profession. Occlusion, occlusion, occlusion.   Kiera Dent (05:03) And I will tell you as a patient who has the most obnoxious bite, ⁓ there are dentists who do no occlusion and there are dentists who don't because my bite you adjust one teeny tiny little micron and the whole bite gets thrown off and they're like, no care, it should be fine. And I'm like, I can always tell if you're just doing blue paper and you're having me bite chew all around, I know you don't understand occlusion because I'm like, you're never going to get it. I'm going to be, you're dancing all the way around. Like from the patient who has sat there,   four hours upon hours and had to find other dentists because the dentist who thought they could do it truly can't do it. And this isn't me being a jerk. This is me being the patient who has to suffer through a dentist who doesn't understand occlusion. Like what you just said as a patient, ⁓ and like there's some, know, you can have it like completely off and like, yeah, it feels great. And then you have patients like myself that teeny, teeny, teeny tiny. I can feel it. You can't even find it. And I'm like, no, it's off. My bite is not, my teeth are not coming together.   Dr Pia (05:59) You always know, the patient always knows. They're always right.   Kiera Dent (06:02) always. And please don't have me laying back.   Please don't have me lay back. Let me sit up. Let me lay back. Let me tell you on both of them, because it's always different. And they're like, no, it's good. And I'm like, it's not. You're not sitting in my mouth.   Dr Pia (06:09) Yeah!   Because   you most probably have long centric, right? So you have one occlusion when your head is back and you have a different occlusion when your head is forward. Now, if that's the case, you need to check both.   Kiera Dent (06:18) Mm-hmm.   Absolutely.   Correct. Thank you. Preach, please, for the patients like myself. These are the pieces. And I don't disagree because when I have seen dentists and they're not checking that and the patients are constantly popping off, I'm like, just maybe check to see how those teeth are hitting in all directions because they will pop.   Dr Pia (06:43) ⁓ but let   me interrupt you for one thing. The other thing that's an issue, okay, if they do it and you're anesthetized, you're not going to get a good read. You always have to call the patient back the next day and check the occlusion again in all the positions when they're not anesthetized because I will guarantee you on my career that it will be off.   Kiera Dent (06:53) ⁓ no, never.   Yep. Yep.   Always. And they're like, no, you can bite when you're numb. And I'm like, I don't even know how I'm biting. I have no clue. I know I'm biting differently. Preach. These are the things and the conversations that I've said. And having somebody like yourself who's so good at this. I mean, you guys, has a referral-based practice. Like people are flying in to see her. I can see why, because how you speak about this is so different. And I think today, one, I hope people are inspired of things to do, things to not do.   different ways to do this. I also love the risk that you took. I love the growth. I love the determination of self of I will be the best. You have the passion. You've got the grit. You've got the tenacity. I have doctors who are great surgeons that are truly incredible at this. I've got doctors that are amazing at occlusion. I've got doctors that are amazing at fillings. There's a doctor and one of his patients said like, have the smoothest fillings in all the land. And he's like, that's really weird. I had him fix a filling that chipped.   And I'm not going to lie, he has the smoothest fillings in all the land. Like I've never felt a feeling as smooth as this man did for me.   Dr Pia (08:12) That's because he polished it afterwards.   99% don't polish them. You know, I had a colleague, checked, he did a, we put a crown in and I'm like, Joe, can we polish it? He goes, no, you're good to go. I'm like, no, I'm not. He's like, but I polished it. I'm like, okay, there is a porcelain polishing kit that you've got to go red, blue, white.   Kiera Dent (08:18) I was shocked.   Hahaha   Dr Pia (08:40) and the white has to be on low rpms and you have to make sure that it's shiny and polished and he's like i don't have the patience for that go do it yourself in the office and i did   Kiera Dent (08:52) But I think like that even I feel like dentistry you It to me what I'm hearing is a lot of dentists. It sounds like go 90 % of the way But it's like that extra 10 % is what really in my opinion makes a lot of difference for patients It's doing the polishing. It's doing the small finesse like you you're working in such a small space anyway Why not make it absolutely perfect and dr. P? think you really inspired me to even look at myself in my life of where's that extra 10 % that I could really just make a dazzle Where could I really make it shine?   It's not, it doesn't take a lot of time, but it does take intentionality. So as we wrap today, this has been such a fascinating podcast and I've absolutely loved it. And I just appreciate your time. I want you to wrap with, you can do do's, don'ts or a mix of the in between. What should people who are doing cosmetic dentistry from your perspective as truly one of the most expert people I've ever met do in cosmetic dentistry or don't or you're welcome to do a mixture as just a quick wrap rattle of things that you've seen in your career.   Dr Pia (09:48) Before   we do that, want to talk to you, I think that we should do this again because I want to talk to you about DSOs and private practice.   Kiera Dent (09:56) Mm, yeah.   That is very fascinating. This is heavy on my mind of all different topics currently in the landscape, which I don't disagree with you.   Dr Pia (10:08) Yeah, that's things are things are changing and not for the better.   Kiera Dent (10:12) They are.   Yeah, absolutely. That will be it.   Dr Pia (10:17) Because I'm a dinosaur   now. I mean, there's very few of us that do handmade work anymore. So getting back to your question. Look, I   Kiera Dent (10:22) I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (10:30) cosmetic dentistry you have to be very very very passionate about it and and the key is to leave your ego at the door and try to be the best version of yourself and that means take every course if you're a young dentist or still in dental school take every course that you can take you know look on Instagram and find the people that do the handmade work like myself and you know there's a handful of   that do it and ceramist as well and find the good beautiful work and reach out to everyone like you know everybody can reach out to me you know and ask me like hi how do I do this or how you know how should I go about doing that the thing is you have to be passionate if you're do and what I've told every student of mine in 18 years you're not doing this for the money the money will come you have to do this because you love doing it   Kiera Dent (11:31) I don't disagree. think, on that note, Dr. Pia, what is the best way for people to follow you? Because I love that you said this and I tell people all the time, the world has shifted. We are in 2025. I'm going to choose a plastic surgeon, a cosmetic dentist, a surgeon based on their Instagram. I'm gonna go look at their photos. I'm gonna go look at their work. We don't live in a world where we are isolated just to our own state anymore. Like people fly across the country to go get the best work done. So.   Dr Pia (11:56) yeah, mean Instagram,   I get internationals from Instagram. I've gotten Kazakhstan, I've gotten the UK, I've gotten the French, I've gotten so many and they're all Instagram. And I'm like, okay. I'm just Dr. P, I spelled out the D-O-C-T-O-R. P-I-A, my first name.   Kiera Dent (12:06) How cool is that? So what is your Instagram handle? So people can follow and kind of see what you do.   Dr. Pia,   and I think if you want to see someone, I know you said you're a dinosaur in this, but as we've been chatting, I'm like, this is the doctor that I would fly across the country to go to. This is the one that I would go see. She knows what she's talking about. She's got the finesse, she's got the passion. She's willing to do one veneer. She's the person I'm going to trust to do work on my mouth. And it's how does she get seen? How does she get known? How does she do this? Guys, these are the legends. These are the people. These are people that have just like done what you're wanting to do.   Follow her and also, I don't know if you have heard at the beginning of the podcast, it sounds like Dr. Pia, you're passionate about helping any person who this is their dream become the best in the industry. And that to me is why she...   Dr Pia (12:51) for sure. For sure. Just DM me if you have any questions.   That's the whole like Instagram is the new portal of learning.   Kiera Dent (13:01) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (13:04) Just ask questions. mean, it's none of us were born knowing how to do veneers. We all had to learn it at some point. And as long as your ego is at the door and you're willing to learn and be the best version of yourself, then you're great. You're great. But if you think you know it all, I'm still learning. And I've been doing this for decades. I'm still learning. I want to be up to date and things are changing. Materials are changing. There's so many things.   Kiera Dent (13:13) Right.   Dr Pia (13:34) Styles are changing. Thank God the Hollywood smile is dying. Finally. This took about 16 years, but thank God it's dying now. It's going back to natural   Kiera Dent (13:34) Yeah.   No. Right.   which Dr. Pia, people didn't get to hear this. I heard this pre-show. You came on, we were just chatting and you said, I love my career. I love what I do. And to hear that you've been doing it this long and can still say that you love that. That's what my hope and wishes for so many doctors out there is that, and like, yes, we will get you back on the podcast to talk about DSO private practice because I think so many people are like get in, get out real quick. And I think that you are just such a great example of loving your craft, loving what you do.   committing to be the expert and look, you've had this long of a career and you're still obsessed with what you do. And I just want to honor you and say thank you and thank you for inspiring dentists today on the podcast.   Dr Pia (14:24) Well, thanks for having me. And look, the young generation, the new graduates that are out there, I think we need to tell them the do's and don'ts of DSO.   Kiera Dent (14:36) Absolutely. So that's a wrap for today with Dr. Pia. We'll have her back on talking about DSOs and new grads and the, I think the perspectives, because right now it's a world of a lot of noise and to find wisdom through that noise is paramount. So Dr. Pia, thanks for being on. Thanks for sharing your cosmetic knowledge. Yeah, I did too. And for all of you listening, I hope you commit to being the best at your craft, to getting hungry. There's a great quote. I'm a BYU football fan ⁓ and their coach says, be hungry.   Dr Pia (14:51) It was a pleasure, I loved it!   Kiera Dent (15:05) Stay hungry, stay humble. And I think that that's what Dr. Pia has done. And I hope all of you commit to that. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.  

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of strategic planning for 2026. As they near the end of 2025, they emphasize the need for agencies to set themselves apart and adapt to the evolving landscape, particularly through the effective use of AI. Despite ongoing economic challenges, they highlight the potential for AI to enhance both efficiency and strategic thinking. Chip and Gini also stress the importance of refining the ideal client profile and taking calculated risks. They share their personal experiences with using AI to assist in planning and decision-making processes, pointing out both the benefits and limitations of current AI technology. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “I do think more than ever, continuing forward on the path that you’re on for the vast majority of agencies is not a good idea. I think most agencies require at least some modest course correction and some more than that.” Gini Dietrich: “Really think about how you can set yourself apart and get in front of prospects now and in January so that you can be doing the things that will help you scale and grow and be sustainable for the future. And some of it’s not gonna be fun.” Chip Griffin: “I think really refining that ideal client profile is something that most of us ought to be taking a very close look at for 2026 in our planning process.” Gini Dietrich: “Be willing to try some things and take some risks and see what works and see what doesn’t work, and then go move on to what works and try again.” Resources The Ragan article regarding upskilling and improving AI skills Related Planning for agency growth Using the AIM-GET Framework to drive your annual planning How to involve your team in annual planning for your agency and its clients Look to your track record as you define your agency's ideal client View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m, I’m flipping through the calendar here, you know, ’cause I still have a paper calendar. Of course. I mean, who doesn’t? Gini Dietrich: Of course. Right. Chip Griffin: And it looks like we’re almost to the end of 2025. Gini Dietrich: We, we are. Which is crazy. Crazy. Chip Griffin: Which, which means that 2026 is right around the corner. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes it is. Chip Griffin: And what do we usually do near the end of each year? Gini Dietrich: We plan for the following next year. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and we have an episode talking about that. So when we have no other good ideas to bring to the table, we turn to the trusted proven stuff from the past Gini Dietrich: 2026. I mean, we could talk about 2026 trends. We could talk about 2026 AI things, but I think planning for our business growth is good. Chip Griffin: Yeah. That all goes into planning, right? So, I, and, you know, I, I’m, as long as we don’t do predictions, I’m fine. I hate predictions. Gini Dietrich: Oh, shoot. Let’s do predictions next week then. Chip Griffin: No, no, no predictions. No, that’s, that drives me up a wall. Gini Dietrich: Note to self. Note to self. Chip Griffin: And I, and I know we are just, you know, probably days away from the flood of Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Articles and Yep. And podcast episodes and videos with everybody making their predictions for the year ahead. Yep. Just stop it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So my prediction is we will see lots of predictions. Gini Dietrich: That is a good prediction. I think you’re probably going to be right. Chip Griffin: It seems pretty likely. Gini Dietrich: I’d bet on it in fact. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alright, so as we start thinking about 2026 planning, let’s look at it for through the, the lens of, of what, what we might do differently in thinking about 2026 than we typically do. Right? Because we, there’s plenty in our archive where people can go back and listen to us generally talk about planning. I’m sure we’ll touch on some of that in the next 20 minutes. I don’t wanna disappoint listeners. We, we will, you know, reach back to the things that we’ve talked about before, but I think it’s helpful to, to think about, you know, what’s, what’s different about 2026, and I think you’ve already hinted at one of the key things. Gini Dietrich: Oh, AI for sure. Yeah. I saw a really interesting post on LinkedIn from Parry Headrick who was talking about how he used to work for Shift and he was the VP of the San Francisco office, I think, and he said, you know, this was during the recession and I was… Anybody who was in business during the recession knows all of your business went away. It was not a fun time to be in business at all. And he talked about how he went to the office every single day for months on end, and he made cold calls to tech firms and he, he would say, we can do like a PR plan for you, a PR 101 like, and he said one out of every 100 calls accepted the offer. And then they went all out and created a really strategic, as much as it could be, plan for these companies. And gave it to them for free so that they had, they could generate some business. And he said that that was one of the things that kept the office going during that time and how miserable it was. Like he talked about it was boiling the frog, like it was miserable and it was not enjoyable. It’s not why he was doing that job, but they had to keep the office open. And I think that, I read that and I thought, you know, that’s really interesting as we think about 2026 because the last couple of years for agencies have been miserable. We have been slowly boiling the frog for sure. And you know, I have a lot of friends who have laid people off, some have gone out of business, some haven’t gone outta business, but don’t have any clients. Like, it has been rough. And I’m not sure that 26 is going to be much better. So I think one of the things that I will be advising people is, and, and for us too, is really think about how you can set yourself apart and get in front of prospects now and in January so that you can be doing the things that will help you scale and grow and be sustainable for the future. And some of it’s not gonna be fun. It’s not. Chip Griffin: Well, you’ve, uh, certainly taken this on a depressing turn here. Gini Dietrich: I mean, we can talk about AI too, but Chip Griffin: I mean No, I mean, we can, we can talk about how miserable and awful things are for everybody. Uh, that’s, Gini Dietrich: it’s been rough. It’s not like it hasn’t been rainbows and unicorns. It hasn’t. Chip Griffin: No, it, it has, it has not been rainbows and unicorns. But I, but I would also, I would, I would push back a bit. I, I don’t think we’re as bad as ’08 or ’09, or back in the early two thousands. I don’t think it’s, it is not as widespread as it was back then. I’m certainly in the agencies that I’m talking with, seeing a lot of agencies that are struggling, most, not catastrophically, most just kind of, you know, sort of malaise is, is the word I would use. Yeah. It’s good for it. And there are still some that are actually doing quite well and, and even growing. So that, to me, that is a little bit different than what we’ve seen in, you know, in  08 or ’09, or during the pandemic. Certainly. You know, where it was pretty much… I guess even in the pandemic, we had pockets, right? The, the digital firms did well because everybody had to transition from doing things in person to doing things electronically. But it, it’s just… so, I, I think we’re in that general period of malaise, you know, sort of in, in my mind, I’m old enough, I, I think Jimmy Carter, right? You know, you just sort of think, ehhh, you know, and, and how America of the late ’70’s was. And so there’s some of that, at least within the economy and, and certainly in, in the agency space. So I think that that part of the, the challenge here is that it is not as simple an explanation as to how you get out of it. Right. I mean, back in ’08, ’09, it’s like, okay, well the economy just has to come forward. And in this case, part of it’s the economy, but part of it is the, the shifting nature of the relationships between agencies and brands, and other organizations. And so I, I, I think that one of the reasons why some agencies are struggling is because they’re not taking a fresh look. At what they do, how they fit into that picture. And I think there needs to be a lot more creative thinking. And I think AI is a big driver of it, not necessarily in the, in the way that people think, though I don’t, I don’t see AI as taking away agency work. Mm-hmm. I see it as agencies just haven’t figured out how to capitalize on it effectively. And, I think that there is tremendous opportunity for those agencies who are willing to adapt their service offerings with and without AI. And moving forward in a way where they’ll leave behind a lot of of other agencies that are more committed to just plodding forward and doing the same old, same old, and, you know, sprinkling in a little bit of AI here and there. Gini Dietrich: I read a really interesting article a couple of weeks ago and I’ll see if I can find it so Jen can include it in the show notes. I’m sure it’s in my history somewhere, but it talked about how, you know, we’ve seen all of these layoffs at all these large companies in the last couple of months, you know, thousands and thousands of people. And they’re telling, most of these companies are telling the teams that remain. There are two things that you need to focus on: upskilling. So, you know, using AI to help improve you, you know, understanding your own professional development, taking charge of new professional development, new skills. And the other piece is really using AI to help improve your, the work that you’re doing to make you more productive. And it went on to say. If you’re an agency that can help with one of those two things, or both of those things, you’re gonna be in better shape than an agency who does new media news releases and news conferences, and you know, social media. So if you can think about how you can provide professional development or help an organization implement AI from a marketing and communications perspective, you’re gonna be a lot further ahead than those that can’t do that. So I think that goes back to really thinking about how to freshen the services that you provide in a way that keeps up with what’s happening in the world. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, I think that’s absolutely a piece of it, but I think a piece of it is also figuring out, you know, how can you use AI to help you do different things that are not necessarily even explicitly AI related. Or made more efficient by AI or it, I, I think it’s just a, it’s a opportunity to take a very fresh look at how we do everything. And, and I think we need to be careful, not just us as agencies, but also on the brand side. We need to be careful about how much we believe AI itself is changing things or can change things. And, and I, I saw in the last couple of days, a video that our friend Chris Penn put out, where he talked about how you need to change your vocabulary to get the most out of the various generative AI platforms. And I don’t disagree with what he’s saying. You do need to adapt your language to those models so that you get the results you want. But, but the flip side of that is, to me, that says AI has not come nearly as far as we think because we shouldn’t have to change for AI to be responsive to us. Right. Right. True AI would be adapting to us instead. And, and so we’re not quite there yet. And, and the progress has been absolutely amazing. I’ve, every time I try out the latest version of a model, I find new things that it can do and continue to get more and more impressed. But I also have ongoing frustrations with them. In part because of this vocabulary issue, but in part because, you know, we’re still, we’re still overestimating what the, the technology can do for us today as far as allowing us to, to replace work hours, et cetera. And so I see many brands laying off marketing and communications people thinking, well, we’ll have fewer people, but AI will help them do the same amount. Nope. And AI certainly makes you more efficient, but not, not that efficient. Gini Dietrich: Not that efficient. No. And you still need somebody with a brain to prompt it and ensure that it’s not hallucinating and ensure that it’s the right information. And that it’s been edited. Like you still need humans for those things. Does it help you get a start? For sure. But you still need the human beings to do the work. And make sure that it’s accurate because what it pumps out on first try, I mean, my favorite response is meh. I just write MEH meh, and it goes, okay, lemme try again. And then I write, meh. It tries again. Finally. I’m like, okay, that’s halfway decent. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that’s better. My habit is to actually get into arguments with it, which… Really serves no good purpose, but I just, I get, I get, I get frustrated when I explicitly ask it to do something and it doesn’t, Gini Dietrich: it doesn’t, right. Chip Griffin: And I’ll be like, well, why didn’t you do what? Yeah. Oh no, you’re right. I should have done that. Yes, because I specifically for it, right? Like, please help me, Gini Dietrich: please write a thousand words and it gives you 300. And you’re like, Hmm, right. Just do what thousand words. Chip Griffin: Just do what I ask, you know? Or, you know, please make the logo smaller in this image. And it doesn’t change it. No, don’t do that to me, that’s just, it’s very frustrating. Gini Dietrich: It’s very frustrating. I agree. Chip Griffin: But I think, you know, we need to be thinking how we can leverage some of these tools to help us adapt our service offerings. And I was, I was talking with someone recently who, they had shifted a, a process from humans to AI recently. And they were running into issues because it was some data analysis that was being done and, and it turned out that the numbers were wildly different between the humans and the AI. And so the first instinct was that the AI was wrong. But in fact, upon further review, it turned out that the AI was too good. And it was being in incredibly consistent in the way that it was doing the task. Ah, whereas humans. Sure. Inevitably we get distracted, we make a mistake, we, we hit the wrong key. You know, I mean, there’s all sorts of things that can lead to this, but because the AI was more consistent and the volume of data and such being analyzed by the humans and the AI was substantial, it, it made a real difference because the AI was actually better. And so, but to me that’s an opportunity. You’ve got a short term problem that you gotta deal with that, you know, you’ve been generating these historical reports that don’t look quite right now. But there’s a real opportunity there because you can actually improve the quality of what you’re doing, along with the quantity, along with reducing the, the labor hours involved and that sort of thing. So we need to be looking at, at how we can take that and take it to the next level, not just how can we use AI to do first drafts so that we only have to edit and so therefore we save, you know, 30% of our time or something like that. There’s, we have to be thinking much, much more creatively if we’re gonna be successful going forward. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I mean, I’m sure I’ve shared this before, but some of the work that we’ve done in my business this year, I’m not sure we could have done it without AI in the, in two years ago, like some of the work that clients have asked us to do. I’m not sure that we would’ve been capable of doing it without AI. So it, it does have the ability to make you more efficient for sure, but it also helps you think more strategically. And to your point, like, bringing in the, the consistency piece of it so that, you know, maybe the, the way that you reported on results in the past isn’t fully accurate, but now it’s more accurate. Like those kinds of things I think it has helped immensely with, and you know, I can think of at least three situations where I’ve been in a meeting with like big, big, big, big executives and they’ve thrown something out. Do you think your team can do this? And I’ve gone, sure. And then we come back and, you know, as a team, work on it and, and prompt AI. And it’s helped us get to where we need to be. And I don’t think we could have done that on our own two years ago. For sure. Chip Griffin: So, you know, we’ve been talking a bunch about how AI is impacting our businesses, but let’s talk a minute about how AI impacts the planning process itself. And so, you know, my question to you would be, as you’re doing your own 2026 planning with your team, are you using AI to facilitate that process at all? Gini Dietrich: Some of it, I would say I have a co CEO, GPT that I built. So it sits as my Co CEO and sometimes I just vent to it. It makes me feel better, but sometimes it will say things like it will point out things that I didn’t think of. And so, you know, when we, especially right now, ’cause we’re working on cash flow projections for next year with our CFO and I’ve, I’ve put in like… Not actual numbers, but percentages to, and said like, can you help me figure out if these are our goals, what we’re going need to do? What software do we need? What team members are we gonna have to add? Like that kind of stuff. And it help, it’s helping me and our CFO think through all of those different scenarios for sure. We haven’t gotten into like the nitty gritty planning yet because our 2025 plan is rolling over into Q1 a little bit. So we’re, we’re about a quarter behind from that perspective. But, from a cashflow perspective, it’s helping a ton and it’s helped me see things that I wouldn’t have seen on my own. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And and I think that’s a, that’s a real benefit that we ought to be looking at when we’re doing the planning process is using AI, not necessarily to give us all the answers, but to help us understand what else we should be looking at. So I love using AI to, to, to give it a list of questions that I may have about something and say, what, what other questions should I be asking? What other data points should I be looking at? Or putting in some raw data and saying, okay, you know, what are the gaps here? What, what should I be looking to… What additional data should I be looking for? Or how can I analyze this in a different way? So I think in the planning process, there’s a lot of ways that we can use the AI to help us. I think we just need to be careful about using it to give us the answers and instead help it to guide the conversations for sure. Yeah. That we’re having with our teams and with our clients, because it will inevitably help us find things that we are overlooking. And maybe we would still get to it halfway through the brainstorming session or the, the strategy meeting or whatever. But if we know it in advance, you know, it helps us prepare better. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do think, you know, to your point about the, the data and it being consistent, I think it does look at things more holistically and how, and I mean, it will say to me, have you thought about this or have you thought about that? Or, you know. Here’s an opportunity for you. Like with the PESO model certification in universities, we had an idea of how we were going to approach it in ’26 ’cause the certification is being completely revamped because of AI. And it actually gave me a couple of ideas that I was like… Huh, I hadn’t even thought about that. So like providing curriculum and grading rubric and things like that, that helps professors that I hadn’t even, ’cause I just don’t have that kind of experience. Right. But it helps me think through some of those kinds of things. So I think you’re right. And you know, I love the idea of, of a list of questions and asking what you haven’t thought of. I’ll put in and say, you know, we’re looking to do this, this, and this, and here’s what we’re thinking. What are we missing? And it, you know, it does come back with some ideas. Sometimes it comes back with things you’ve thought about and you’ve dismissed, and sometimes it comes back with things that you’re like, Hmm, okay, let’s, let’s explore that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I mean it, there’s, it’s not a replacement for human judgment. You still need to look at it and say, oh, yeah, that does make sense, that it’s something we look at. But, but my experience is more often than not, it does come up with things that, you know, that given the right amount of time I would have thought of, but Sure. You know, it, it’s, it’s, it’s good to have it reinforced that, it’s good to have it, you know, bubble it up higher on my list so that, again, I, I’m not finding it out, you know, halfway through the meeting when the light bulb goes off and it’s like, oh, right, I forgot about this. We should be, we should be looking at that. Right. You know, but I, I think this is the, the planning process is, is an opportunity for you as well to be thinking about challenging your own assumptions. And, and I do think more than ever continuing forward on the path that you’re on for the vast majority of agencies is not a good idea. I think most agencies require at least some modest course correction and some more than that. And so I think that we’ve already talked about, you know, what kind of services you can deliver and those kinds of things. But I think the other thing we all ought to be looking at in 2026 is the definition of our ideal client. Because, because we do need to understand better how our clients of today are being impacted by the economy, by AI, by all of the social change that’s going on. And understanding how is that impacting who we’re targeting, how we’re targeting them, what kinds of engagements we’re, we’re trying to set up with. And so I, I think really refining that ideal client profile is something that most of us ought to be taking a very close look at for 2026 in our planning process. Gini Dietrich: One hundred percent. I could not agree more. And you know, I’m a big, big, big fan of really understanding at a macro level what’s going on so that we know how it affects our businesses. And I think that the more that you can do that and understand how everything that’s going on in the world is going to affect your agency and you know, the sustainability and stability of it, I think are, is really, really important. And being willing to try some things and take some risks and see what works and see what doesn’t work, and then go move on to what works and try again. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and you need to, to look at the data that you’ve got in front of you, not data from three to five years ago, right? But, but data from 2025. And so whether you’ve had a great 2025, a mediocre 2025, or an awful 2025, look at what the data is telling you. And look at where you’ve had success. Success in terms of where you’ve had the best results for clients, which we often overlook. We, we often look at just, you know, what we’ve been able to sell, but you need to see what is producing results for clients. You do need to understand what you’re selling, where those leads came from, and, and look at those recent trends and lean into what’s working. And again, that doesn’t matter whether you’ve had a good year or a bad year. You still wanna lean into what you know is working today because it is a, a very different environment than it was 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and and beyond. So you need to be relying on that kind of analysis if you wanna make smarter decisions in your planning process. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you’re right, like this is different than 2008, 2009, and 2020. It’s, it’s different. So be willing to take some risk. It’s uncomfortable for sure. Chip Griffin: You and I both love risk, so we’re always gonna preach risk. Calculated risk, not just reckless risk. Gini Dietrich: Calculated risk.Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Please be calculated. Chip Griffin: Yes, have a reason for what you’re doing, and have a reason to believe that there’s a decent chance of success. Don’t just blindly walk out there and say, Hey, let’s try crossing the street now without looking and see what happens. That’s not the kind of risk we want you to take. Gini Dietrich: Please don’t do that. Please do not do that. Please, please do not do that. Chip Griffin: So with that, if you’re, if you’re listening and you’re driving or something, still pay attention ’cause we’re gonna wrap up now. Keep your eyes open. Keep your eyes open. If you, if you wanna listen to this again, wait. You, you can go back to the link. There’s resources that’ll be there. There’s the transcript there, all those things. So stay safe. Yes, yes. However you’re listening to us. And with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Recorded: 12/02/25. It's time to talk about the holidays and our plans for the month. Why we like MM books. No glove no love. It's time to read holiday books! Shannon reviews "Railed by the Krampus". Thanksgiving recap. Go watch and read "Heated Riverly" by Rachel Reid. On Crave in Canada and HBO in the US. MM hockey players. Very spicy. 3 peppers. Advent Cheese tasting! We are eating and rating cheese! Original music composed by The Jessi Brown Experience. Find Jessi at TheJessiBrownExperience.Bandcamp.com, and us @ShannonsParty, @ActualMaggieMay, @ThatMoreThing , and @ShannonsPartyReads on Instagram. Now streaming on Podbean, Pocket Cast, Spotify, and Apple Podcast

There's milk everywhere: more milk in the U.S., Europe and New Zealand than a year ago, soft Class IV, and Class III futures that could slip into the $13s once you plug in today's spot cheese and whey. With a long milk wave crashing over the dairy industry, will farmers start culling cows and leaving stalls empty? Inside the episode, the team churns through: Why strong balance sheets, paid-down debt and high cow values could delay a production pullback How lower feed costs shift the breakeven – but can't fully offset falling milk checks Why Western and cheese-focused regions like the Pacific Northwest, California and Idaho may struggle first How WPC 80, WPI and clear whey proteins have become the lone bulls – and why capacity constraints limit the industry's response Why there are limits to what customers can pay for whey, and where substitution is already happening It's a barn full of bears on butter, cheese and fluid milk, but the protein complex is still flexing. The question is how long that can last? Tune in to The Milk Check episode 88: One bull in a barn full of bears to hear how our traders are navigating a market that's bearish on volume but still bullish on protein. Got questions? We'd love to hear them. Submit below, and we might answer it on the show. Ask The Milk Check Ted Jacoby III: Welcome, everybody, to The Milk Check. It is December 5th. We’re gonna talk about markets today. And rather than boring you and having the same conversation we had three weeks ago, everything is still bearish. There’s milk everywhere. There’s milk all over the U.S. There’s milk all over Europe. There’s milk all over New Zealand. There’s a whole bunch more milk this year than last year. Things are long. It’s very likely things are gonna get longer before they get shorter. Today we have some of our usual suspects. My brother Gus has joined us today. We’ve got Josh White, we’ve got Joe Maixner, we’ve got Diego Carvallo. And, of course, myself. Looking forward to a great conversation. So, rather than discussing how bearish we can be on these markets, my question, and I’m gonna start by throwing this question at my brother, Gus, is Gus, how long do you think it’s gonna take for dairy farmers to start culling cows and for this milk [00:01:00] production to slow down? Gus Jacoby: I feel like milk price and farm economics are completely contingent on that and how bad those farm economics get with respect to the milk price. Class III is still relatively high. Obviously, Class IV is pretty poor right now. The way I see it, dairymen, at this moment in time, still have fairly strong balance sheets. So, the recent low prices haven’t affected ’em all that much. So, I don’t expect their behavior with respect to culling and whatnot to change. But I think in five, six months from now, assuming that the milk price is at or lower, and quite frankly, I think Class III probably does need to get a bit lower, you’ll start to see some of that behavior change. If I had to guess, either as early as early summer, but as late as maybe mid-fall, if farm economics don’t change, we’ll start to see dairymen begin to leave stalls open. I mean, they’re gonna cull a cow, collect that beef revenue that they can grab, and not necessarily buy the expensive heifer. Ted Jacoby III: You’re thinking it’s gonna take about six months for dairy farmers [00:02:00] to get to the point where they feel like they need to increase the amount of cows they’re selling in order to meet their cashflow needs? Gus Jacoby: That’s my best guess. And again, that can be either expedited or slowed down depending on where the milk price goes. Ted Jacoby III: Corn prices have really come down this year. Do you think the lower feed prices have lowered where that break even point is, or how low we need to go in milk price in order to really send those signals in a strong way? Gus Jacoby: Certainly, feed prices being lower are gonna be helpful to the farm economic model. This becomes a milk price discussion. If the cheese price continues to have that downward pressure and gets low enough, those feed prices won’t be low enough. It’s always related to their inputs. And certainly, cheap feed helps their cause to extend growth in the milk production model. Ted Jacoby III: Right now, on December 5th, the Class III prices for the first quarter are right around, let’s call it $15.50, but if you use today’s cheese price on the spot market at the CME in today’s whey price, you’re probably looking at something closer to $14, 14 and a quarter. [00:03:00] Is that low enough or do we need to go lower? Gus Jacoby: It’s low enough. But not low to expedite anything. Maybe that takes us into the late summer, and remember, it depends on where we’re talking here in the country. Milk production costs are different depending on where you exist in the country. And also payouts are a lot different in a lot of places, depending on where you exist in the country. So, some regions might struggle sooner than later. Ted Jacoby III: Which regions do you think are gonna struggle first? Gus Jacoby: The West, Pacific Northwest, I think California, areas like Idaho that are strongly cheese based. If you’re paying on a Class III price and it stabilizes, which I don’t anticipate here, then perhaps some of those regions might hold on longer. My guess is predicated on the forecast of Class III going a bit lower. Ted Jacoby III: I guess I’d have to agree with that ’cause I don’t think $14 a hundredweight is enough. Because we’re still in front of Christmas, and I think the market’s probably gonna get worse before it gets better. My hunch is we’re gonna see $13 milk this year. We’re gonna see it in Class IV, and we may be already [00:04:00] seeing it in Class IV as soon as December. I think we’re gonna see a 13 handle in Class III, probably most of the first quarter. Gus Jacoby: If you’ve got a Class III at 13, and Class IV holds as low as it is, which I would expect certainly in the first half of the year, and then you have your standard freight and other deducts in those milk checks, dairymen are now getting to an area that is very adverse. Ted Jacoby III: Even though we’re talking about really low prices, I think there’s a lot of dairy farmers out there that are in a pretty healthy place. Gus Jacoby: I would agree. Ted Jacoby III: They’re healthy in two ways. One, I think that many of them have been able to take the last two years and really pay down their debt. And so, they’re in a really good spot financially, just on the balance sheet alone. But the second thing is those cows, they’re worth twice what they were worth three years ago. And so, not only have they paid down their debt, but if they need to borrow more, they’ve got more collateral to borrow against because those cows are usually the collateral for the banks when the banks lend dairy farmers money. It’s [00:05:00] usually the cows and the land. My hunch is that this may go on longer than we expect because of how healthy dairy farmers are financially today. Not saying they’ll be healthy in four or five months, but they’re healthy today. And because of how much bankers are probably willing to lend them based on those balance sheets. Gus Jacoby: I agree that the balance sheets are strong at the moment, even after a couple tough months. But I would also add, that that can change fairly quickly if the milk price gets low enough. And it’s certainly a ratio of farm economics over a certain period of time and milk price. If it gets low enough and makes those farm economics adverse enough, it can expedite the issue, which is a plausible scenario right now. Ted Jacoby III: Mm-hmm. I would agree with that. I think the hardest thing, especially when you have a falling market like we do right now, is to try and figure out exactly where the bottom is. About a month ago, the bottom was about a $1.40. Well, guess what? Cheese price is already below a $1.40 Now, we’re hearing it’s gonna be [00:06:00] somewhere in the $1.20s. What I’m scared is we’re gonna get to the $1.20s, and somebody’s gonna start talking about maybe we need to go into the teens. I don’t know if we’re gonna go that low, but we’re definitely in that scenario right now, where you have a market that’s falling and nobody has a really good feel for where that bottom is. Gus Jacoby: I agree. Cheese and butter right now, their outlook over the next six to eight months does not look good. Ted Jacoby III: Yeah. You mentioned butter. Joe, I’ll ask you: we’re below a $1.50 in butter. Butter feels like maybe it’s caught a temporary floor. Is this a temporary floor or could we stabilize here for the next six months? Joe Maixner: I think we’ve hit a temporary floor, but I don’t think it’s the lowest we’ll see over the next 90 days. I think that cream seems to be in balance, even after Thanksgiving, and I think it’s kept a nice spot in the market where people are willing to buy, those that hadn’t already put contracts on for next year are seeing the 2026 numbers and they’re looking at that against their budgets and blocking volume up for next year. A [00:07:00] lot of first half volume’s already been booked. We’re just seeing more activity. We’ve hit that level of support. Ted Jacoby III: Joe, you mentioned cream. Gus, I’m gonna go back to you. We had some really ugly cream multiples the first half of last year. Have we increased churn capacity, and do we expect those multiples to be just as bad this year or have we increased churn capacity enough so that maybe they won’t quite get so bad? Gus Jacoby: We have increased churn capacity, certainly. I don’t know if it’s enough. Some dairymen around the country are feeding their rations a bit different and getting a little bit less butterfat out of the milk. I don’t think that’s enough, yet, to make too much change. I will anticipate having some very low multiples through the holidays and the spring flush. Ted Jacoby III: Okay. Diego, I’m gonna switch gears and come to you. We just talked about U.S. milk production. Gus thinks it’ll take about six months to turn. I hate to be really pessimistic, but my gut, and I just can’t shake this gut, is it’s gonna take longer than usual this time around. And we may see it go well past nine months before we see a real turn. [00:08:00] We may see the number get better simply because we’re measuring against strength, but that doesn’t mean we actually see a change in trend. What about Europe and some of the other milking regions in the world, is it gonna take that long us to see some changes in milk production in those regions? Diego Carvallo: If you just go to the fundamentals and you analyze that the European farmer usually has a smaller scale, and that means that their costs tend to be a little bit on the higher end. They do not have access to capital as there is in the U.S. There’s more restrictions when it comes to environmental, and overall I would say they have more headwinds than the U.S. So, if you add to all of those headwinds, the price headwind, the reaction on milk production to lower prices should be faster than in the U.S. The same applies to South America. But we’ve talked a lot about Chinese production, we know that in that country, there are way more things to take into account. Ted Jacoby III: [00:09:00] So, we’ve been talking a lot about the supply side today. We’re just overwhelming supply on the butter side; we’re overwhelming demand to a lesser extent, but still on the cheese side. Josh, protein still tends to be the shining star. But are we getting to a point where we’re starting to get some pushback on protein prices? And is that going to continue to be the lone bull in an overall bearish dairy market, or do we need to be concerned there too? Josh White: I don’t think we’re getting pushback at the prices quite yet. Does that mean I think that these prices are palatable over the long term? I’m unsure. But what we are seeing right now is lack of availability and no quick ability by the European market or the U.S. market to scale production to meet the demand, which means that ultimately, the demand for WPC 80 and WPI and then some of the more value-added proteins, particularly in the whey complex, like the clear WPIs, the acidified products and others, the demand is outpacing our ability to supply it. What that’s [00:10:00] doing is forcing utilization segments or customers that can’t compete in terms of price for that available supply to look to alternatives. We’re starting to see more and more of that. As a commodity trader, we expect that to happen quicker than it does. So, already in early 2025, we were looking towards MPCs, casein-related products and others to pick up some of that demand because they’re much lower value. And I don’t think that the average customer in the market that’s using whey proteins fully recognize the functional differences between whey proteins and milk proteins. And they certainly don’t realize that milk protein concentrate has whey protein in it. Generally speaking, the average consumer doesn’t know the difference in these products. That’s not a fault of theirs. Particularly going into CPG applications and further processing, this is an ingredient. An ingredient that has a lot of label recognition and popularity right now for all the reasons we’ve talked about in prior podcasts: GLP-1 driven demand, [00:11:00] health and wellness movements globally, a lot of other reasons. Is that an early indication that enough time has now passed that the relative value of whey protein above the competing, but still quite valuable proteins in the dairy complex, are gonna result in substitution both substitution within the dairy category to whey protein to milk protein concentrates to micellar casein to WPC 70, also known as WPPC, whey protein phospholipid concentrate (WPPC) ProCream. There’s a lot of different names for these products. That’s likely to happen. But it also, unfortunately, might result in a lot of categories pushing to non-dairy proteins. There’s a lot of information out there, things put on by ADPI and others talking about the protein power of dairy and how digestible it is. How high quality it is for your conversion rate, why it’s such a popular thing. But if you can’t get supply, you’re forced to look to alternatives. And so, we’re starting to see some of that [00:12:00] happen. So, a couple things that I’ve heard anecdotally in the market over the past few weeks in particular, but it’s been happening over the last few months are: get us samples of milk protein concentrate. One of our customers is suspending a certain SKU on the shelf because they can’t get the supply. This price simply won’t work for our application. So, we won’t buy this product at above this price. So, we are triggering some thresholds. And triggering thresholds is gonna have some type of balancing result in the industry. Whether that’s enough to support the milk protein side of the equation, I don’t know. We have a limit to the ability to respond to this demand. You have to order equipment, you have to get the bank lending, you’ve gotta get the design. It takes a long time to increase capacity. That’s all gonna come into play and impact this market and the balance of this market in 2026. Now, if you’re asking me, is my gut that we hold these high prices or even higher prices without some reversal in the price [00:13:00] action for whey proteins in 2026? I’m not ready to say that it’s just here or higher in 26, but is it here or higher in the first quarter? Absolutely. Is it here higher in the second quarter, probably. Is it here or higher after that? I become a little bit skeptical. And to be clear, that’s not because the demand isn’t there right now. The demand feels like it’s there. I just don’t know how the market balances it out without pushing the price just too high in the short term for the market to digest it and pass it through. I also think that when you’re talking about the dairymen and you’re talking about the cheese makers, there is two different classes here. There is the class of those that make whey proteins and the class of those that do not. That has a material impact on profitability throughout the supply chain. Additionally, we’ve got a lot of milk in the U.S. We’ve got a lot of milk in the world right now, and the milk in the Northern hemisphere altogether is only gonna increase from here through the first half of [00:14:00] the year. That milk is gonna need to be processed. The incremental milk production will result in incremental whey protein availability, which means that those whey solids from cheese processors they have to find a market. If you can’t make the valuable product of WPC 80 and WPI, you have to explore the other alternatives, which are simply not experiencing the robust demand of those two categories. Sweet whey powder, whey protein concentrate 34% (WPC 34) and some of these other products, they have a limit to what people are willing to pay. History tells us, at least for sweet whey powder, we’re testing those limits. Ted Jacoby III: For sweet whey powder, we are, the question is, is this happening for whey protein? And that’s a harder one to answer. Josh White: Absolutely. Ted Jacoby III: I did some back of the envelope math. As a country, we produce 8% to 9% more milk in May on a daily basis than we do in November. If half of that milk goes into cheese, we’ll produce 8% more cheese and 8% perhaps more whey protein. The solids change, too. So, maybe it’s not a full [00:15:00] 8%, but is 8% enough to tip the scale on whey protein demand? And I don’t know, given the demand complex for whey, I think for cheese it’s gonna feel very burdensome. I think for butter, it would probably feel pretty burdensome. The butter market we’re kind of used to it because of the way the demand curve looks, but I just don’t know when it comes to whey, if that’s enough to put some pressure on this market and bring those prices down. Josh White: Well, it depends on what you’re talking about because you could argue that the WPC and WPI facilities are bringing in outside whey solids. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As their own milk and their own whey generation increases seasonally, that’s gonna push whey solids back to somebody else. So, all 8% in your hypothesis there, I doubt contributes to an 8% increase in whey protein production. Because the available capacity isn’t there? Josh White: Correct. Now, is there production efficiencies that are still gonna be gained? Are there those out there that are expanding a bit [00:16:00] that we’re unaware of? Are there orders for new equipment in the system that might be closer to realization than we think? All possible. And we can’t ignore Europe. I don’t feel like I can adequately represent what the expansion model looks like in Europe right now for whey proteins. What I can say is that at least for the U.S. and Europe, our internal demand is currently absorbing a greater percentage of our production than ever before, and that’s leaving the rest of the world that was buying product from those two markets, having to search for that protein elsewhere. Ted Jacoby III: Mm-hmm. Josh White: And, this is being a bit over generic, but the rest of the world likely will be more willing to substitute than the U.S. or the European consumer to other products. Ted Jacoby III: I would agree with that. Everybody in our office is just leaning really bearish, just about everybody we talk to seems to be leaning really bearish. Josh White: Outside of Black Swan events: major trade disruptions, major production impacts that we can’t predict. If you’ve [00:17:00] been in the dairy industry long enough, you know to never bet against the dairymen and their ability to make milk. But it’s gotta be on the radar that the competitive dollars for those animals I don’t think has ever been as lucrative as it is right now. And those animals that they’re currently milking are older then typically they want them to be. So, if we shift this cycle quickly enough and violently enough, and that’s price, at what moment do we get surprised at what that residual response is? How many pent up animals find their way to slaughter? How quickly that could happen. And I think generally speaking, most of us would bet that the calf inside the dairy cow right now is worth enough to wait. And so, we’ve gotta get through the first half of the Northern Hemisphere season before we see much of an animal response. Ted Jacoby III: I think that’s a fair comment. Dairy farmers, especially the big financially astute ones, there’s a math equation. It’s like, this is my revenue [00:18:00] from milk. This is my maybe revenue from biofuels or wherever else. They have revenue streams from a cow that’s giving milk every day. This is the cost to maintain that cow. The variable cost feed, for example, being the big one. Well, when you’re getting $20, a hundredweight from your milk versus $13, a hundredweight for your milk. That equation has changed quite a bit, whereas the exit price, what you’re gonna get if you sell the cow hasn’t changed at all, which means your math equation, the exit possibility has definitely gone up. It’s more profitable to sell this cow than it used to be. Josh White: History tells us that the exits of the older dairymen and the smaller dairies doesn’t really change based on economic conditions, it’s relatively stable. Maybe there’s some risk that we have some pent up exits and some risk that it’s never been a better time to retire. Mm-hmm. And you get some smaller dairies that decide to exit. That doesn’t move the needle. Ted Jacoby III: I would suspect. You’re right. We’ll see. Josh White: One [00:19:00] quick remark that’s important is the outlook on demand. It seems like the market is very, very bearish because supply is outpacing demand globally and it’s in every major milk shed. But demand by import regions has been pretty good. Mm-hmm. They’ve been buying year over year, more dairy products. At the same time, I don’t believe there’s any region in the world that’s currently sitting on cumbersome overall dairy stocks, whether that’s from the import regions or the production regions. Everyone seems to be quite aware that you gotta stay in front of this. I don’t know how to interpret that. On one hand, you could say that based on some of the economic outlooks, globally, we shouldn’t be expecting things to get better. We should be expecting them to get at best the same or possibly even worse. On the other side of that equation is import dairy consumption and demand is growing and continues to grow, so it might be a painful period, but the long-term [00:20:00] outlook remains pretty good, and we just overreacted to some of the demand signals that we have. Credit to the dairymen in the world, being able to respond to signals that we needed more fat, not even a year ago. That whey protein demand’s good. I mean, the market has responded, but overall we’re not talking about an oversupply situation because demand’s bad. If you go granularly, like U.S. cheese consumption, doesn’t look real great right now. The outlook for overall economic health, I’m not an expert in that area, but I’m not seeing a lot of people talking about a rosy 12 to 24 months there. So, yeah, I think generally speaking, it’s easy to be bearish, but maybe that’s one thing to pay attention. Ted Jacoby III: You mentioned demand. I happened to be involved in a conversation yesterday with an equities trader and his comment about stock valuations, equities, valuations, which was really a demand comment, was, I’m just waiting to see what Christmas sales do. I think there’s a lot of people out there right now that are trying to get a feel for what’s [00:21:00] the long-term demand or the 2026 demand perspective, and I think a lot of them are gonna judge what it really is based on how this holiday season plays out. All right guys. Hey, thanks for a great conversation. I apologize to all the dairy farmers out there that I couldn’t give you any better news, but hang in there that good news will come eventually. That’s right.

Kiera is joined by renowned cosmetic dentist Dr. Pia Lieb to talk about Dr. Lieb's journey in her field, as well as her insights into what the rich and famous ask for (and pay for) when it comes to their teeth. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I am so excited. I have an incredible doctor on our podcast. Dr. Pia is coming to   from New York, Manhattan. And this woman is incredible. She has been able to build and sustain a high-end cosmetic practice. She's figured out how to be, you guys are gonna love this, a referral only destination for patients seeking discretion, innovation, and ultra-personalized care.   This woman has been named the Michelangelo of dentistry and I am so excited to welcome her on the podcast. Welcome Dr. Pia, how are you today?   Dr Pia (00:32) Thanks for having me, Kiera.   Kiera Dent (00:34) Of course. Well, I have been so excited about this podcast. I don't often get to bring clinical guests onto the podcast. And so to just kind of hear of how you do your cosmetic dentistry, how did you become this practice of being so sought after? ⁓ How did you become the Michelangelo of dentistry? So kind of just walk the listeners through how did Dr. Pia go from where she was to where she is today? Kind of just give us a background on, on who you are and what your story has been.   Dr Pia (01:04) Well, I'm gonna start with, it all started in dental school. There was a lecturer by the name of Dr. Gallup Evans who has passed away since. And he was giving a PG, which is obviously post-doctoral course on cosmetic dentistry. And his reputation was he was the one who did.   the supermodel Polina Povaskova's veneers back in the early 90s. And I went up to him after the lecture and I basically said, I'm a sponge, teach me, tell me what to do so I can do the same thing that you're doing. I've completely fell in love and cut out a class to go to that course. And after the course, he turned around to me and said, well,   sweetheart. You're either born with it or you're not. So I went home and I cried for five days.   and he completely tore me to shreds and that really got me upset and ⁓ I was a great student. was the youngest in NYU as a student. I graduated high school at 16. I was the nerd, right? And basically what I did is I was asked to start teaching after residency and that was my...   Kiera Dent (02:03) Absolutely.   Dr Pia (02:26) way to make sure that I would never allow anyone to speak to a student like that. And my whole point was, I want to empower the dental students. I don't want anyone to feel the way I did by this particular person. And basically I had nowhere to start. So I started taking all of these courses, these PG program courses, and I met up.   Kiera Dent (02:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (02:53) When I was actually in dental school, I went and I met the holy grail ceramist who invented veneers in America. And I went up to him and I said the same thing, I'm a sponge, please teach me. And he was like, great. Okay. You have a car. And I'm like, yes, I do. He goes, all right, come to the lab every Friday after school and every Saturday, let me teach you how to prep and how to do veneers. And this man who also passed away has taught me everything.   Kiera Dent (03:12) I'm   Dr Pia (03:23) that I know because the doctors were not doing it and there was only two guys in New York that were doing veneers in the 80s and in the 90s and those were older men in their 40s and they were not going to take a young 20 year old female and teach her what to do because they were you know insecure that we were going to take over the business from them.   So that's how it all started. And obviously, I taught for 18 years and I did do that what I set my mind to do. I wanted to give every one of my students the best experience that they can have with dentistry and with cosmetic dentistry. And we're still friends after all these years. So I must have done something right, that they still love me to invite me for dinners into their houses.   Kiera Dent (04:10) Thank   ⁓ I think that you're speaking to my own heart. mean, having that love   being in the dental colleges, of   to give back, like that's the whole reason Dental A Team exists was because of those students that you just fall in love with. And kudos to you because I got really lucky and I worked at Midwestern University's Dental College in Arizona. And I have been told that the culture there and the experience there is not like most dental schools. It was a very empowering, very enriching. There was no smashing of models. There was no...   ⁓ destroying people's dreams, but I know that that's not everywhere. so kudos to you for ⁓ making a stance and also not giving up on your dream. And I think something I took from that is how often are we maybe told something that's not true and we believe it. We take that on as an identity and yes, crying for five days. I don't blame you, I would have done the same thing, but ⁓ it is.   Dr Pia (05:03) No, it's demoralizing, you know, like it's   just here you are, you're this young bright-eyed and bushy-tailed eager beaver who wants to be the best at her profession and then you get some 50 year old man telling you, ⁓ honey, you can't do this, you gotta be born with it. I'm like, really?   Kiera Dent (05:20) Hmm.   Maybe I am born with it and have you seen it. ⁓   Dr Pia (05:25) And you know what I was and that's that's the   thing and it's just but it's the way he said it but we'll get back to karma because 18 years go by and he was lecturing again and karma if it's a small I don't want to say the b word on a podcast but   Kiera Dent (05:42) Mmm.   Hahaha   Dr Pia (05:51) it is. So he's got the lecture, same thing, same before and afters. And this time I'm wearing a white lab coat and scrubs underneath and I had you know, and at this point, I was clinical assistant professor and there were like 350 doctors in the audience. And he's like, Does anyone have anything to say? And I'm at the back wall, I wasn't sitting down, I was standing up and I raised my hand and I was like,   He goes, and he goes, I know that name. You're in press and you're my competition. And he was like, and you know, what is it that I said? said, you know what? Thanks to you, I am who I am today. I want to say thank you. If you didn't say this to me and make me go home and cry for five days, I wouldn't have.   done everything humanly possible to be your competition and here I am I didn't know if he was gonna slap me or kick me out or just whatever it was but it was not what I and he said you know come on down and just tell us more about it he goes you've got so much pressure all over the place and it was funny because at that point   Kiera Dent (06:52) Ha!   Dr Pia (07:08) That was like maybe 10 months after I did 10 episodes on TLC of 10 years younger. And I was all over the place. Like everybody knew me from TV and from press and ⁓ the New York Times wrote that I'm the Michelangelo in Smile Boutique. And it just got to that point. I got the recognition that I worked so hard for. he was like, all right, give me a hug. I was like, thank God.   to   get a slap. But I was ready to get like thrown out or to. So that's kind of what I wanted to do is I just want to empower every single person out there. And you have to understand, when I went to school, we there were no women, it was 97 % men, we had   Kiera Dent (07:43) You   Dr Pia (08:02) maybe seven girls in the graduating class. I mean, not that we had a lot. We have much smaller classes back then and we were 97, but seven out of 97 is a low percentage.   Kiera Dent (08:14) That is,   yeah. Wow, that's such a fun, ⁓ I think kudos to you. And one of my favorite lines through life has been, life is not happening to us, it's happening for us. And I'm sure in that moment, you felt like life was happening to you. Like, who is this jerk? And they destroyed my dreams. And yet, ⁓ again, not to say that that's ever the right route to go. But I just want to highlight and compliment of you took something that people could have said would be sour grapes and you actually turned it into beautiful wine.   and you turned it into something beautiful and it was fuel to your fire to make you into this incredible woman that the world needed. And so I'm very curious, how did you then go from, okay, here we are, how'd you become this renowned cosmetic dentist, getting on TLC, getting all the press, like what was kind of the way to get into that? Because I'm sure there's a lot of dentists who want to live your dream. How did you do it?   Dr Pia (09:04) I think the   way in was truly like in 1998 or 99, I don't remember what year it was, but it was the first gen art fashion show for Fashion Week in New York where they took up and coming young designers and they had a private fashion show with about 10 of small up and coming, which we don't have anymore. mean, New York Fashion Week is no longer what   used to be. But I go there and I had a patient from Belgium who had a really good friend who was an up and coming crazy French designer and he was showing the runway and I just basically went with her and I remember that we were after the fashion show there was a VIP with champagne and we got these wristbands and so forth and my   my patient was, you know, late 30s, single and ready to mingle. And there was this really cute male model that did the runway for ⁓ another designer that wasn't as big. And she was like, my God, he's so cute. And here I was, I had no makeup on, right?   Kiera Dent (10:07) Yeah.   Dr Pia (10:23) this long Margiela dress and I have like Doc Marten boots, my hair up in a ponytail, just like mascara and red lips on. And I went up to this guy and I said, hi, I'm Dr. Pia. You know, my friend Jacqueline wants to meet you. And he had this woman who was next to him and she was like, you gotta talk to me. I'm his booker. I didn't know what a booker was. So I'm like, what's a booker? I thought it was like the, you know, betting on horses, know, like booking, you know, that's what I thought.   Kiera Dent (10:47) Yeah.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (10:53) And basically, ⁓ I was like, No, no, no, I'm just, you know, we're going behind if you guys want to come and join us at the after party behind and he was like, great, she goes, No, no, no, we can't go anywhere. You got to go through me. And I'm like, Okay, I said, Look, I'm a cosmetic dentist. And back then we had cards, right? So I was like, Here's my card. She goes, I want one, too. And I and   Yeah, that was it. had some drinks afterwards. And she was like, Yeah, I want to come in as a patient. I have to come in first before he comes in. Because he said he needed his teeth done. I was like, okay, so the next morning, I'm like, live it at like nine o'clock. I call Wilhelmina who was like back then the number one modeling agency for men. And I call and I'm like, Can I speak to Jennifer and   Kiera Dent (11:32) Yeah.   Dr Pia (11:47) She picks up the phone. I'm like, hi, it's dr. P again. I'm like, I just want to make it really clear I'm married. I do not I am NOT picking up on on your male model It was my friend who was interested just making putting it out there and being totally transparent. So she's like fine I Want an appointment so I booked her and the moment that I booked her She introduced me to the modeling industry. So then I started getting all the models   Kiera Dent (11:57) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (12:13) the supermodels, I got everybody in and I think that's how it all started with the press and everything because they've seen my work with the modeling industry and that's how kind of it all started and the thing with me it's always been privacy it's I've never named names I will never name names because it's like plastic surgery if you're going to go in and get a facelift do want it to be plastered all over the press I don't think so so it's the same thing with veneers I mean I do very   natural handmade porcelain and the whole secret that I think to my success is I've never gone into that chicklity white Hollywood smile the toilet bowl teeth or the turkey teeth as now they all go to Turkey to have them done well I've never done that so for me I've always followed what I believe in and did the best that I can and I think that that is as long as you love what you do   Kiera Dent (12:55) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (13:12) and try to be the best that you can be. think the universe, no matter what God you believe in, you know, I think the universe gives it back to you.   Kiera Dent (13:23) I think, well, and also what I heard from that is kudos to you for just going and meeting people and for being out there. Like, I don't think people realize the power of connections, the power of human interaction, the power of who you know. I think we're in such a society where it's all online and we just think, which you can still connect online, but like, don't be afraid to say hi to people. Don't be afraid to introduce yourselves and...   Like I said at the beginning, Dr. Pia, it's very rare that I bring on clinical guests to the podcast. So I'm curious, you work on supermodels, you work on really incredible people. I have a doctor, which we will not name names either, who works on movie stars in LA. so I have a couple of questions and if you don't want to answer by all, you probably do. We will chat post show and see, exactly off call. ⁓ But.   Dr Pia (14:07) I probably know him. If it's it, we'll do it all off, off.   Kiera Dent (14:15) I'm curious, Dr. Pia, just for listeners to know, what is like, I'm gonna ask a few questions and like I said, privacy and respect are my number one. So if there's something that you're like, I'm not gonna answer by all means, audience just know Dr. Pia is so kind to come onto the podcast for us and I did not prep her because I never know what I'm gonna ask. It's just a genuine curious host over here wanting to know, what are the average cases like dollar wise, our low end to our high end of cases that you're doing?   I just want people to know, because I think people do not believe that this is real life dentistry and it can be.   Dr Pia (14:51) You're talking about veneers or you're talking about all the procedures. Veneers. Veneers are from three to 45, 100 or two. It depends. mean, if someone is a massive grinder and I've got issues with them.   Kiera Dent (14:54) I would say let's do veneers and then let's do other procedures.   Dr Pia (15:12) having, you know, doing the grinding at night, felspathic, I'm a little bit weary of doing that and I'll do the 3D printed. ⁓ As much as I'm not the greatest fan of doing that, I would rather keep them in a night guard and let them have the beautiful teeth. But it basically is... ⁓   Kiera Dent (15:19) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (15:35) You know, for the handmade porcelain, I mean, there are some people out there that are charging over five. And I think that's just a little bit exaggerated because I know how much it costs me to make. think, you know, 4500 is a fair price. You don't have to go above five. I think that's just the ingredient.   Kiera Dent (15:42) Totally.   Sure.   Mm-hmm. Which I appreciate that you say that, especially with the press and with the people that you worked on. You have an opportunity to charge more, but you're also being ethical and fair, which I think ties to the passion, the love, the reason people can trust you. So how many veneers, this is like, now I'm gonna just be like a nerdy patient. How many, because I feel like a lot of people just want like the four veneers and then the six and then.   Dr Pia (16:15) Alright, come on, bring it on!   Kiera Dent (16:20) Do you just do all of them? there a space where clinically you recommend like we stop here for smile lines? What's kind of your, what's your, what's your clinical excellence on this? What do you recommend?   Dr Pia (16:25) No!   I think you should have either one or as many as you need. think the biggest problem and the... Okay, now you got me. So my competition in New York will only do 10. And he's my former student.   Kiera Dent (16:37) I'm ready. She got fired up everybody. Juicy like sits up.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (16:51) which is even more infuriating to me. Like I so disagree because I think if you have a beautiful smile and let's say you fell and you've had a root canal and the tooth is starting to change color. I think if you're a good clinician and a good clinician is a cosmetic dentist, I don't believe a GP could do this. Okay. And men, we have the issue with 40 % are colorblind. So that's another issue altogether.   Kiera Dent (16:52) That's   I do remember there was a girl in dental school who couldn't like really see and I was like, how do you like she couldn't see colors and I'm like, how do you, how do you, how do you get over that as a dentist? I'm just curious. I can't check the color, right? Okay, so making sure you think that you can do one if you're a good clinician, which is, love this. Cause people tell me all the time, you can't do one.   Dr Pia (17:29) Well, they get the dental assistant to choose the color.   I do one. do one. So I do one.   I do one. I'll do two. If you're if you ground I do four.   I'll do six, I'll do 10, I'll do 12. If the person has a really big smile and it's a color correction like a tetracycline case, then I have to do 12, you know, like, because it depends if you're someone that has this uber large mouth, then and you when you smile, you go back to the second molars, you have to do it. But I feel that this whole entire ⁓   doing 10 or nothing. think that is so unfair to the patients. And I think it's such bad karma as well, because it's going to come back and bite you later on, because I don't feel that everyone has to have that many done. And the other thing that I'm actually known for is the fact that I don't believe that   you have to necessarily file the tooth down. If the teeth are in the correct position, okay let's back it up. If the teeth are not in the correct position do Invisalign first and then do the handcrafted veneers because the way I do them they're as thin as a contact lens so there is no drilling needed. Anytime why I wouldn't want anyone to drill my teeth to put veneers on why are you taking away to add on it's an   Kiera Dent (18:42) Love.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (19:08) moron right so if you are a true cosmetic dentist and know how to do this and have the right support of the right ceramist they should be see-through   Kiera Dent (19:09) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (19:24) So if that's the case, there's no drilling involved. And if you need only one, just do one. There's no reason to spend that money on doing more if you don't need them.   Kiera Dent (19:32) It's incredible.   which I'm so grateful to hear this. This is why I was so excited. I'm like, I have so many questions about this and I'm just curious of how you do it and to hear that being really talented at this, you don't need to do more than that because I hear all the time like, well, if you only do four, then you're gonna see it, but I don't disagree with you. think if you're good at what you, and this isn't just dentists. I also think dentists, well, I'm gonna go out on a limb. Now I'm fired up to be, like, here we go.   Dr Pia (20:02) No, no, they   want the money. It's clear as day. They're doing it for the money.   Kiera Dent (20:06) Right.   Well, and also I'm like, if you're not good enough to be able to do one without it looking like a chicklet, I might question, you good enough to be doing this in general? And that I know is a very bold statement, but I might get really good at this. I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (20:18) No, they should not be doing them. I'm sorry, they should   not be doing it. And with felspathic, with the handmade porcelain, it... I can't say it enough. One is not a problem.   Kiera Dent (20:35) Okay, let's talk about different labs and how do you choose a good lab for ceramic, for cosmetic cases? Like what's the difference? I mean, I've heard some people that are printing ⁓ Emax crowns for the front and I wanna like cringe and I'm like, ⁓ that feels really bad. So let's talk about like, how do you pick a good lab? What's the difference of a good lab? How is it handmade versus not? Like what are some of those nuances within the cosmetic world that really make a difference on being able to do one versus having to do eight to 10?   Dr Pia (20:48) No, no, no, no, I didn't write.   Kiera Dent (21:03) because you're gonna see lines and it's gonna look different.   Dr Pia (21:06) Okay, so I'm a nerd. I'm going to give you the whole entire background. Okay. ⁓ So basically the handmade porcelain is felspathic and it can be as thin as 0.16 of a millimeter, which is technically a contact lens. Okay. It's thinner than your natural fingernail, not with gel on it or powder, you know, polish. I'm talking about a natural fingernail. So having said that,   Kiera Dent (21:08) I love it. I want this.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (21:33) Now in the way that those are made they're done on platinum foil so you take the model of the teeth they put platinum foil which is also like super super thin microns it's you know anywhere between 10 microns 20 microns okay and then on that porcelain on that platinum foil the porcelain multiple colors multiple translucencies get added on and that's   the veneer is made. Okay so that's how we're able to have them super thin. The 3D printing, different story altogether. So 3D printing needs to have minimum   Kiera Dent (22:05) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (22:17) between 1.5 to 2 millimeters of thickness. So those right there are thick. Okay, so that's why you need to file. Otherwise, everything is gonna be out. That's why they need to do 10 because they can't match the flatness of a natural tooth. So those are done by a computer. So what you do is you scan with the feldspathic. You still have to take good old fashioned impressions because the model has to be poured in   Kiera Dent (22:22) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (22:47) it cannot be on plastic to do the platinum foil. With the 3D printing, with 3D printing veneers and crowns, you basically just scan the tooth, send it via, you know, the cloud. It gets to the lab, they print out the model, and then they start designing the shape and the size of what they want the veneer or the crown to look like.   Kiera Dent (22:51) Interesting.   Dr Pia (23:14) and then they have this block which is like about this big and it's like a disc it's like an oversized hockey puck okay and out of those they usually get out of those hockey pucks usually they get 25 crowns and veneers like either or okay ⁓   Kiera Dent (23:22) Mm-hmm. Okay.   Sure, okay.   Dr Pia (23:35) Now those blocks you have to understand they come in one solid color and very opaque hence why they look like toilet bowls like you can see like ⁓ Simon from What is it the the show with America's Got Talent right now his teeth walk in before him   Kiera Dent (23:55) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (23:58) They're so white and chalky. He had them done and they're too big, personal. I mean, I think they're too, he's too horsey. He should have stayed with the veneers he had before because they looked more natural and.   Kiera Dent (23:58) It's true.   Dr Pia (24:12) But that's the problem. If you have them very, if you have the 3D printed, the opacity is one solid, you know, base that the computer then drills that hockey puck to form the crowns and the veneers. So you're never going to get the aesthetics of having incisal translucency or having a halo or having them nice and flat. You're not, because the computer is going to make them the thickness that   Kiera Dent (24:33) right?   Dr Pia (24:41) They cannot drill those any thinner than that because they're going to break.   Kiera Dent (24:46) So this is fascinating and I love this because now I have more quite like being an assistant, also having worked in this, also having gone to labs, also having like things done for family and friends that I know. Are you a fan of custom shading where you send your patients to the lab or how, okay, so how do you get it to where it's like a perfect shade match, like consistently, any tips that you have to make it to where it is really that absolutely perfect, making your smiles.   Dr Pia (25:04) Hell no.   Kiera Dent (25:15) beyond perfect without sending them to a lab. Because I think a lot of people hold back and they're like, I've got to send it. But I've seen a lot of dentists where they'll try to put the shading in, they try to put the translucency in. This is no knock on dentists. This is like, hey, we've got an expert here. Let's ask how she does it so we can all rise up.   Dr Pia (25:30) Okay, honestly, I take the patient to the window. My whole main thing is every single office that I've built, I need to have windows that are five feet tall.   and sunlight. So I'm able just to move the patient to the window. And that's where the talent comes in. I'm able to take shade without a shade guide. I mean, I'm at that point, but I've been doing this for decades now. So it's like at the beginning, I wasn't so I would do the shade guide and I would write it on a piece of paper and just be like, okay, the neck is an A two and then we have an A one body and then we have translucency of two millimeters and a halo and I just draw it.   Kiera Dent (25:41) Fascinating.   Dr Pia (26:10) and then they would make every single veneer with the same recipe. It's almost like cooking. But the window and natural sunlight is the key. Because all these computers that you put up against your tooth, all due respect.   Kiera Dent (26:15) I see. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.   That's great.   they shade it differently.   Dr Pia (26:29) it's not only   that you have to understand everybody's tooth is a different length okay like your centrals are fairly long for the average person right that particular shade guide is not going to read color on your tooth that you probably have 12 millimeter long centrals and i'm diagnosing you over the video right so that particular   Kiera Dent (26:35) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Hey, thank you. Yeah.    Dr Pia (26:58) light source is not going to be able to read 12 millimeters perfectly from the gum line to the incisal. It's just not going to happen. You're going to need and if you're not good at taking shade, go do endo or oral surgery or ortho.   Kiera Dent (27:07) Right.   It's true cosmetic is about I feel it's about the precision. It's about the aesthetics and like there I mean I hire designer to do my house. I'm not going to do it. I know that that is not my forte. I'm really good at other things, but I'm not good at color matching and what goes well together and how to put this together. It's just not my strength and skill set and I really do believe like this is what I think going back to your original professor speaker lecturer who   completely dash your dreams. I think maybe possibly what he meant was, I think there's some people who have a natural eye for cosmetic and aesthetics and there's other people who maybe don't. And I think you can adapt it and evolve it and become, and you have clearly proven that. But my guess is, I mean, hearing that you're even on fashion week, my hunch is you already by default had a very strong fashion aesthetic. Maybe you didn't, but I would guess that that kind of has been a part of you.   Dr Pia (28:07) No, I did. did.   And you know, I do like my own makeup and I know my colors and things like that. And so that helped. I have to say that really did help me quite a bit.   Kiera Dent (28:11) Mm-hmm.   which is why you were drawn   to this. You had the passion, fire, because you already knew that.   Dr Pia (28:21) And I loved it and I was like, how can I? And then what the other thing is like, you may not know you have it. So the other thing what I say is buy some art books. That's what I did. Buy some art books. Get to learn the difference between the chroma and the hue and just take a couple of art classes and see if you have it.   And if not, what can you pick up and learn from those art classes if you really want to do it? And I'm not trying to be sexist by any means, but I do think that women are better at it because of color. And I think we're a lot more patient because the way I do it is I do diagnostic wax ups on every case, whether it's one tooth, unless it's even with the prepless veneers where I don't touch the tooth.   Kiera Dent (28:52) Yeah.   Dr Pia (29:16) I still do the wax ups to see I've had all let me backtrack a little bit but I've had every single 2d program   in the last what 16 years that they've been out more than 16 years okay and it's not the same when you see yourself in a photo with the size and shape and color that you might want okay it's like using it's like using the apps to change your hair color i'm   Kiera Dent (29:32) Wow.   I agree.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (29:50) the strongest belief that if you do want to change your hair color, I think you should try on a wig and wear it for a couple of days. So that that whole entire ⁓   Kiera Dent (29:58) Yeah, I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (30:03) philosophy that I have what I do is I do the diagnostic wax-ups I do the indexes and without drilling the teeth the patients come in and I pop it over their teeth, you know with the Luxe attempt, know the temporary material that sets over it and I tell them to walk out with it and You know, it's not bonded on or anything. They can just take their fingernail and just pop it all off But go out let your family see it. Let your partner see it. See how you feel. Is it too long?   Kiera Dent (30:22) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (30:33) Is it too square? Is it too round? I'm allowed to have my opinion, but you're paying me and if your opinion is different than mine You have you should have the right as a patient to get what you want. Not what I want We have to come somewhere in between sometimes like I'll put my foot down and I'll be like you really don't want them that way   Kiera Dent (30:49) Mm-hmm. And I'm glad...   You're right. We don't want them to make a statement before you walk in the room. That's what we're going to just highlight here. But hey, if you want white white, like at the end of the day, that's what they're going to have. I love that you, ⁓ I think this is probably what's made you really great. I don't know. I've heard a lot about you. But I think what you do is you make sure that the patients are obsessed with the results and not that Dr. Pia is obsessed. Like you're obsessed with the craftsmanship of what you've done.   You're really talented at that. But like hearing that you let people walk out and go try these on and what is it going to be like before you do it? That to me says that you are so obsessed about the outcome and the result for the patient. And then your job is to make sure you have the most excellent craftsmanship, the best product, the best techniques, the best method to get them the outcome they want. And I think hearing that, I'm just so proud of you. And I'm so grateful to hear that there are clinicians in our industry that   are obsessed about that rather than the reverse. Because I think some people are obsessed about maybe the dollar, maybe about doing these types of cases, but they're not the best at it, or this is what I think that they should look like. You really want to make sure that that patient is like a walking raving fan of you before you even do the work on them. And that I think is very special about you.  

In today's episode, we continue our myeloma series, this time we'll delve deeper into the spectrum of plasma cell dyscrasias, including defining MGUS, discussing surveillance of MGUS, defining smoldering myeloma (SM). We are slowly inching our discussion towards the diagnosis of Multiple myeloma (MM)!Content:- Defining MGUS- Discussing risk of progression of MGUS to MM- How to interpret free light chains in renal failure- How do we monitor MGUS patients?- When do we do additional testing in MGUS?- What is smoldering myeloma?- What are myeloma defining events?- How do we risk stratify SM patients?- How do we monitor SM patients? Want to review the show notes for this episode and others? Check out our website: https://www.thefellowoncall.com/our-episodesThis episode has been sponsored by Primum. To sign up for a free account, check out: tfoc.primum.co ** Want to review the show notes for this episode and others? Check out our website: Love what you hear? Tell a friend and leave a review on our podcast streaming platforms!Twitter: @TheFellowOnCallInstagram: @TheFellowOnCallListen in on: Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Youtube

This could be consider our first full Prediction Market focused guest. CSP Trading was an early MM on prediction markets before we had even heard of them. He walks us through the history of PMs through his experience trading on them and growing with the space to where they are now.0:00 Getting Started in PMs13:24 Early Prediction Market War Stories37:45 Insider Trading in PMs45:00 Getting Into Sports56:30 Market Making Strategies1:33:00 Q&AWelcome to The Risk Takers Podcast, hosted by professional sports bettor John Shilling (GoldenPants13) and SportsProjections. This podcast is the best betting education available - PERIOD. And it's free - please share and subscribe if you like it.My website: https://www.goldenpants.com/ Follow SportsProjections on Twitter: https://x.com/Sports__ProjWant to work with my betting group?: john@goldenpants.comWant 100s of +EV picks a day?: https://www.goldenpants.com/gp-picks

Welcome back to the 262nd episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 262nd episode we bring you a Duet Review of Moonlight Schooner, written by Kanika Ambrose, directed by Sabryn Rock, a Necessary Angel Theatre Company production in association with Canadian Stage and Tarragon Theatre. Join Associated Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson and new guest Divine Angubua as they discuss the importance of identifying the individual, the need for community, and the necessary role of text & movement to penetrate the never ending cycle of colonial oppression. Moonlight Schooner is playing at Berkeley Street Theatre (26 Berkeley St.) from November 21st to December 14th, 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://my.canadianstage.com/overview/9330 This review contains many SPOILERS for Moonlight Schooner. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [14:53] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Divine Angubua– Instagram: @ angubua_for_presidentFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 259th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 259th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Shrek the Musical, with book and lyrics by David Lindsay-Abaire and music by Jeanine Tesori, directed by Herbie Barnes, presented by Young People's Theatre. Join host and Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson, as they discuss the strengths of YPT's abridged adaptation, the majesty and ingenuity of this production's dragon puppet and the inventive ways the show found its balance between individuality and honouring the past films and major productions that proceeded it.Shrek the Musical is playing on the Ada Slaight Stage (165 Front Street East, Toronto, ON M5A 3Z4) from Nov 13th – Dec 30th, 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.youngpeoplestheatre.org/tickets/shrek/This review contains many SPOILERS for Shrek the Musical. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [16:18] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Trish shares with Tiff and listeners her experience with a practice that started with a whole lot of uncertainty under a new doctor, and the steps undertaken that lead to a thriving workplace within a year. Specifically, she touches on how trust, flexibility, and numbers each played a role in this success story. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am so excited to be here today. We are, I have Trish here with me. So we are here just hanging out today and we, I'm so excited actually that we did this at 8 a.m. It's way more fun. At first I was like, ⁓ that is early to be ready. But then, know, we're like, spray our hair's great. Our makeup is fresh. Like it's actually super fun. So thank you for spending your morning with me Trish. How are you today? We are hot to try.   DAT Trish Ackerman (00:27) Thank you. We are hot to trot.   The Dental A Team (00:31) Trish, I got to love on you already twice, so go listen to the buyers and the sellers version of practice ownership, you guys, because you'll get to hear how amazing Trish is. But I want to pull a random on you, Trish. And I have not asked in a while, and I think that the Dental A Team listeners in the world out there needs to hear, how are the piggies? And yes, I said pigs, like oink oink, how are the piggies?   DAT Trish Ackerman (00:56) The piggies are great. So I do have two pigs and ⁓ they are very well known with my friends and my colleagues. I have, it's Miss Daisy and Joey and that is spelled J-O-Y-E. And well, they're doing great. However, winter's here is coming. It's winter in Arizona. we think they don't like the cold. They don't like the cold at all. So we have been having some loud piggies that like to come indoors and they do. So we have in and out pigs to go in and out with dogs.   The Dental A Team (01:07) course.   Yeah.   Ugh.   Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (01:26) We have a total podcast just about that. anybody's thinking about getting a pig, please call me first.   The Dental A Team (01:30) Yeah, yeah, and that's true.   I, Trish, I think actually, like, save the pigs. I think that's a really good point because I and we can, you can take any theory and apply it to anything, right? Anything, everything looks great. ⁓ And when you're in it, you realize maybe I didn't do enough research, right? So this sounds like a great idea, but maybe I didn't do enough research. And I've known people, aside from you who have had   pigs as pets. And I know one family that just thrived loved their pig and ⁓ they live a long time. You guys, there's a lot to know about pigs. are incredibly smart. ⁓ but I do believe they're very smart to the point of like stubbornness, right? But there's like so much to learn and Trish, something that everyone should know is a passion of yours is these, the pig projects.   Right? And that stems from that right there, in my opinion, of people not understanding what they're getting into. When I was young, I wanted nothing more than a little pig. I wanted a little piggy. Right? And so many people in the early 2000s, in the 90s, they got a little piggy. And what happens to a little piggy, Trish? This little cute little oinker does what?   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:49) it gets real big real quick and then it roots everything and people are not prepared very and loud we prepare yes life's not   The Dental A Team (02:50) They're so big!   They're so big, they're so destructive.   loud. My mom was like, you're not getting a pig. Yeah. Thank God.   So, so everyone knows Trish does, she volunteers ⁓ for, there's a whole, the whole place here, the volunteer that takes piggies and cares for them and loves them. And it's just something that she's really, really passionate about that I didn't even know existed until meeting Trish. So thank you for bringing that to my life. But   I love the analogy that can be taken from that, right? Because we do that with everything. We're like, okay, that was so cute. my gosh, sparkly, do it, yes. This is an instant yes. I want it, I need it, I want a goat, right? I want a highland cow, a mini highland cow, because why? Instagram shows me pictures of them next to a fireplace. I wanna cuddle with a mini highland cow. That sounds dangerous, right? Like I also want a coyote.   DAT Trish Ackerman (03:40) Yes, yes.   Yeah, it's great.   The Dental A Team (03:57) Like there's so many things that we want in life because they're cute and they're sparkly and they feel like they're gonna feel amazing. And then we get there and we're like, ⁓ shoot, I did not do the research. I did not realize this pig was gonna get so giant, right? So I love that. Thank you for letting me take that journey with you. And so if you do have piggy questions, Trish@TheDentalATeam.com. It's her direct line. You can make sure.   DAT Trish Ackerman (04:03) ⁓   Mm-hmm.   Thank you.   I'm your girl.   The Dental A Team (04:25) And it's going to be just fantastic. It's going to be so much fun. okay, on that note, practice owners, doctors, know, teams even, we all get into that space, right, of shiny object syndrome, or it just sounds like it's going to be amazing, or it looks so pretty. And we sometimes tend to miss some of the underlying pieces that we've got to know. And I think that's where consulting is super beneficial.   for practice owners. There are so many things that you don't know until you know. And a lot of those pieces are healthy patient base, right? What is a healthy patient base? How do I keep, maintain, create a healthy patient base? What the heck is billing? How do I even do that? What is insurance? Why do they tell me what I can and cannot do? These are literally real questions that we get from doctors and, or team.   Why does my team hate me? How do I make my team like me? Well, my team likes me, but they don't respect me. Culture is massive. And all these things are things that we don't always think about when we purchase a practice and we get into this like beautiful building or the, ugly building that we're going to make beautiful or whatever it is. And just like the piggies, it was so cute and such a good idea. And then all of a sudden it's this massive.   Mass, like how much do they weigh Trish? Like a full grown pig weighs what?   DAT Trish Ackerman (05:56) I mean, I don't have the hogs, but Miss Daisy, I mean, she's close to 90 pounds and Joey, he's about 110 pounds and they start out little.   The Dental A Team (06:01) 110.   Yeah, yeah, and people think like a St. Bernard is wild. Like no, these are pigs, right? Like it was so cute. They are really cute still. I'm not saying they're not still cute. I'm just saying they come with some baggage, you guys. So when we're looking at these practices and we're helping these practice owners, these are pieces that we have to dig for. We've got to be like, hey, like that's a truffle finder. Like that pig is going to tear up your backyard.   but we can safeguard it. There are things that can be put into place to make sure that your backyard is safe, right, or as safe as possible. Same thing with your practice and your consulting. And that's what we do. We are good. Trish is great at pigs. She is great at many things. Recare, reactivation, AR, billing, team, culture, leadership. I could literally list the millions of things that Trish is really, really fantastic at.   And I think sometimes she's like an octopus that can just like all these arms are just going in different directions and she's just so fantastic at it. And Trish, we've talked about a specific client before and this client is just super cool, super amazing, super fun and a go-getter, like quietly a go-getter, which I love. I love that it's like a sneaky go-getter because he's so quiet. ⁓   So we talked about them before, but something I wanted to kind of highlight and focus on today during our podcast is yes, they've done these amazing things and with your leadership and your guidance, they have implemented some really incredible tools that we have talked about in the past, ⁓ you know, for handoffs and exams, mentorship, like all these pieces and it's worked wonderfully and the doctor is doing fantastic, but something I don't think we highlighted in the last podcast on this.   on this topic and conversation is the work that you've done with the manager and the team and like how that has flowed and how the doctor's leadership in the last less than a year has really molded the culture in the practice that that practice has now become, it's thriving. Like it's a practice that is safeguarded. It's a practice that has the systems in place that the team is really excited to be there still.   and has the like and the respect. I want to hear those tools, because those are sometimes the tools that we miss in moments of get our operations manual done and do all these checklists. And I want to hear how you helped them do that. I know he did it, they did it. And that is something that we can truthfully say. They showed up. They did the work. But what were the...   They did, and how did they do that? Take me through all of those pieces. How did you help them do that? How did they do the work? How are they showing up that's different than practices we're not working with right now?   DAT Trish Ackerman (09:00) This practice, it's so special to me because of the legacy behind it. just to reiterate this, we've got our current doctor in there now. It was his dad's practice and it was also his grandpa's practice. so he had something that we knew, he had something that we knew we had to preserve and grow and just blossom more than anything that practice had ever seen before.   And this doctor, he's kind of like your, he's just like your perfect implementer. And I never, and that doesn't happen all the time. And it did with him. And he, this is a doctor that has a stellar OM, like a real OM. And she, they are great partners. And when we, you know, we kind of walked through all the KPIs initially, like let's look at everything.   The Dental A Team (09:35) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (09:55) And then we started breaking it down, like where could we improve or where could we increase things or where can we be more efficient? And we'll start with just say the patient base, because this was a bottlenecked practice, which is it's got his pros and cons for sure. I mean, it's great because you're bottlenecked. The cons are you could possibly lose a lot of patients very quickly. But what we did is we would strategize together and I would map out the steps for him in like an ABC fashion.   The Dental A Team (10:06) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (10:25) Here's A, go do that. Here's B, go do that and C. He would do just that with the support of the OM and team. The OM and the doctor together would roll out at team meetings and even sometimes just morning huddles like this is something we're implementing today and they would do it. And that is, you know, it's like to have, if you bring us on to help you, there has to be a trust there. I mean, we're, certainly not here to make   make you do something that is not gonna work. Sometimes something doesn't work, but we pivot quickly. But for the most part, we're here to help. And this doctor walked in with nothing but trust. And I admire everybody that comes on to us, because this is a big decision to get a coach and have somebody consult for your practice. But that is really how they made these things move, They did everything, everything, and almost exactly how I would roll it out to them.   The Dental A Team (11:17) Yeah.   Yeah, I agree. I watched it. I watched it. I, as you were speaking, picked up that trust word as well. And I think the, the trust that he has for himself to make good decisions flows into all of the other pieces. And, and I don't mean that he knows every decision is a good decision. He trusts that no matter what the decision that he makes, he's going to pour into   and it's going to work or it's not. And if it doesn't work, then he moves on to something different. He trusts that no matter what, at the end of the day, it's going to be okay. So that means that he trusts the people that he surrounds himself with. If he has chosen you, he trusts you. And I think that trust flows into, I think it makes us better consultants, right? Because we feel that trust, we know, and we're going to push you. We know the extent to which we can push you. And if that trust is not there, you're not going to get as much push. And I know there's a lot of   There's a lot of times that I hear I'm not seeing movement or I need more. Well, it's both ways. We're gonna gauge it by how you're showing up. We're gonna show up too. And this is someone who shows up and that trust then, it doesn't just flow into the type of consulting that he gets. It also flows into how his team shows up. And you said that his office manager I've met, wonderful human and is just,   wants the best for the why, the purpose of the practice, the why that they're there serves it. That then allows them the trust that they have in each other, in the decisions, in the practice, in their why, in their purpose flows to the team so that they can show up and say, hey, we're doing morning huddle today. It doesn't have to be this like, hey, in a couple of weeks, like we're prepping for this, hey guys, we're prepping, because now I'm coddling and the team is like, is it good? it, like why is this?   Why can't we just do it, right? When it's not like a, hey, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna try this out. It's gonna be amazing and let's do this. It's a like, ooh, like a gas and a break at the same time. It's like, ⁓ well, maybe though the team feels that. And they're like, I don't think I wanna do this then. I don't trust that you've put a lot of thought into this. I don't trust that this is a good idea. So I'm gonna rebel. And then, know, teams and practices and practice owners are like, why isn't this working?   I think you nailed it there with the trust. He trusts himself, he trusts you, he trusts his team, and he trusts his spouse. The trust is ever flowing. He trusted his father to gift him, maybe not gift him, but to build this legacy practice for him to take over one day. And I think that is massive. So then that trust flows into everything that he does. And I think you get to see that. And Trish, what are your...   What are some of the ways that you've seen the team really rally behind him?   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:24) They, okay, behind every number is a story and watching his numbers change. The story is that the team changed with him and they are, they're very transparent with their team. They're very, they're, very direct, but in a lead, but they, they both have very strong leadership. They're a firm and principal, flexible and procedure is what I love to use.   The Dental A Team (14:27) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:50) So they would be firm in principle, like this is a new implementation that we're going to roll out today. They would be flexible in procedure with certain team members because, you know, change is always kind of wild. It can be. The flexible and procedure would be, okay, if you're not ready to implement today, let me set you up with some coaching, but immediately so that we can ensure that we get this implementation rolled out by next Monday.   So it wouldn't be something that could just never get implemented, they could, if they needed to take some heavy lifts a little slower, they would, but there was always a timeline behind it. Nothing ever just sat ever. And team meetings, they're really, really good about their team meetings. They have solid agendas. They go in there with an action plan and they leave with action items. And they're just, they're marching. They continuously march together and forward and upward, always.   They did, the doctor also did kind of early on, he did a really, really good analysis, a sincere analysis on right people, right seats. And there was some discoveries made there. And knowing what those discoveries are, that gave me something to also help coach him with. you have to have, the doctors cannot do this alone. They can't. Team meetings are imperative. They have them. And again,   The numbers tell a story. And how did I know right away that this team was behind him was the numbers. But how did he do it? Consistency, implementation, follow through. He didn't just say he was going to do something. He did it. He did it.   The Dental A Team (16:34) Yeah,   yeah, and he delegated, right? He delegated to his team the pieces where they could support too. think something that I noticed right off the bat was that he trusted you, he listened to you, and something you guided him on was the pieces that only he could do versus the pieces that other people could help him do. And so mentorship, mentoring an associate dentist to take some of the load off of him, to build the schedule, to make room for the new patients, to get the block scheduling in place.   DAT Trish Ackerman (16:52) Right, yeah.   The Dental A Team (17:02) that mentorship could only come from him. But the other pieces, the implementing the block schedule, creating the block schedule, training the team on the block schedule, he didn't have to do that. And he trusted and allowed the delegation process and he trusted his team to carry it through. And I think something Trish that you did well with him and that he did well with you was allowed for the results. Everything was results driven. So if you implement this, you should see this.   DAT Trish Ackerman (17:30) Yes.   The Dental A Team (17:31) Now we see and make   sure we see that. If we don't see that, like you said, the numbers don't lie, right? The numbers tell a story. If we're not seeing the result, the expected results, we look at why are we not seeing the expected results? So he trusted that that implementation by his team was going to get the results. And if it didn't, he trusted that you would guide on why that result didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (17:54) Yep, and how to approach the team maybe a different way to   get the implementation active.   The Dental A Team (18:00) Yeah, yep, totally, totally. so massive kudos Trish on keying into, massive kudos to this doctor and massive kudos to you to really keying in on the areas of growth rather than just saying this is what we do, right? We're not that kind of consulting company but I watch you really mold your consulting per client to what   they need and where they're at, like you meet them where they are at and you are able to really see things that they thrive in, things that they love, things they're really good at, and then areas where it's like, you're not super great at that and you probably don't like it, so like, do you need to keep doing it? Is this something you need to keep doing or is this something that maybe we can pass off to somebody else?   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:53) think we're all really good at that here. mean, it's, think we get, we do get to know our clients quickly, really quickly, as far as just how are they going to tick with us? And, and when, know, with, with this doctor, one of the funnest things that I did discover with him is, is I found out that he was competitive and that was something else that really moved the needle. And I was like, ⁓ okay. And I ran with that. And   knowing that he was competitive and then started having them bring their presented treatment. How much dentistry did they present yesterday? And I mean, that just took off. So between him and his associate every day, they were in there and their huddle showing what did you present yesterday and what was accepted. And it just started kind of creeping up slowly but surely because the because the owner doctor, he's like he wanted to win. He wanted to have more to show. And that was that was actually a lot of fun.   The Dental A Team (19:44) Yeah.   Yeah, I do. I do love that. I remember you doing that with them and it was fun and you could see just like a spark. Like I wanted it. Like it was awesome. And I think to highlight that one of the reasons that you keyed in on that and that you made that a priority was that there was a sense of fear of diagnosing, of being an overdiagnoser. And so they knew there was stuff left on the table. There was a fear and there was a holding back and you challenged them.   to diagnose just one more, to diagnose one more thing and overcome that fear. And oftentimes we have to step into what that fear is and just do just a smidgen, like just a little bit, just a little bit and get over that fear. And that was something that you keyed in on. it wasn't, a lot of team members tend to listen to these too. And they tend to think the wrong of consulting, that we're looking to.   make things up or find things that aren't there and that was not the case with them. It was really just that fear of being an overdiagnoser, but really stepping into who they were as providers, as dentists, and their why to make people healthy again. So it's just super cool to watch. So, Josh, if you had to pick two things, two things, actionable items that the listeners today could attempt to implement themselves based on your work with this doctor, what would those two things be?   DAT Trish Ackerman (21:14) Those two things, let's see, the first one would be, what is your case acceptance and how are you presenting? And I say that because I watch and hear doctors talk patients out of treatment all day every day. So that's first thing, what's your case acceptance and how are you presenting? That's number one. And then number two, what is your, you know, I love this, what does your re-care department look like? What does your re-care schedule look like for the next two weeks?   The Dental A Team (21:26) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Agreed.   DAT Trish Ackerman (21:41) and what did it look like the last two weeks and evaluate that. And if you find that there is more than 10 % of lost time in that two weeks, you might as well plan for that to possibly happen coming up two weeks. And so what are the systems in place? What are the protocols in place? Because you really want to lock down that Recare Department to ensure that you have your patient base and that you've got your exam opportunities.   The Dental A Team (22:05) I love it. Thank you.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:06) And   that your overhead is not crazy because it can get really wild if we don't have if we've got a hygiene provider and she does not have a 90 scheduled or to capacity. We're going to start seeing some numbers look weird.   The Dental A Team (22:19) totally agree, love that. Awesome, thank you Trish, I appreciate it. think watching you consult is super fun, watching all of you ladies consult is super fun. My job is really, really cool and I just, I love it. thought, it's kinda like when you're in the office, you're like, can't imagine anything else and then now I'm like, I can't imagine sitting in an office, you know, and I was like, I'm never gonna be off the road and then I was like, actually I really like this, I really love this space so thank you for letting me be a part of it, thank you for letting me jump in on.   on calls with you sometimes and really just get to see you thrive. Thank you, thank you. Awesome, you guys, if you are a Dental A Team client, we love you, we value, we appreciate you. If you have any questions on this specific situation, you guys, we all communicate a ton. So ask your consultant if you want some advice, you're like, Trish's Recare sounds amazing, like communicate with your consultant. If you're not a Dental A Team client yet,   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:49) love that one.   The Dental A Team (23:14) We love you, we appreciate you, we value you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you have questions, we are here for you. And if you want to know more about Piggies, Trish is here for you. And we love talking our hobbies and that is a massive hobby for her. So get to know us like we get to know you. We love and adore all of you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Drop us a five star review. We cannot wait to hear from you. And if you guys are in a space where you just, you're not sure.   what to do. You're like, I don't know what my A, B, and C is Trish. I don't know what my next step is. I know I can see this thing that I want. I don't know how to get there. We are really good at that. We are really, really good at building those steps and the path to get to your ultimate dreams. You guys, TheDentalATeam.com sign up for a free consultation and it doesn't, it's no obligation you guys. doesn't mean anything. It just means,   Help me, I see this piece, what am I missing? We are here to provide that piece even if you're saying I'm not ready for consulting, we will still give you those tools. So please reach out, we are here for you. We want to do the most that we possibly can for the dental world and our community that we serve. So Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we cannot wait to meet you.  

The Overtired trio reunites for the first time in ages, diving into a whirlwind of health updates, hilarious anecdotes, and the latest tech obsessions. Christina shares a dramatic spinal saga while Brett and Jeff discuss everything from winning reddit contests to creating a universal markdown processor. Tune in for updates on Mark 3, the magical world of Scrivener, and why Brett’s back on Bing. Don’t miss the banter or the tech tips, and as always, get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe feel a little overtired yourself. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast 01:09 Christina’s Health Journey 10:53 Brett’s Insurance Woes 15:38 Jeff’s Mental Health Update 24:07 Sponsor Spot: Shopify 24:18 Sponsor: Shopify 26:23 Jeff Tweedy 27:43 Jeff’s Concert Marathon 32:16 Christina Wins Big 36:58 Monitor Setup Challenges 37:13 Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles 38:33 Review Plans and Honest Assessments 38:59 Current Display Setup 41:30 Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences 42:51 MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons 50:58 Markdown Processor: Apex 01:07:58 Scrivener and Writing Tools 01:11:55 Helium Browser and Privacy Features 01:13:56 Bing Delisting Incident Show Links Danny Brown's 10 in the New York Times (gift link) Indigo Stack Scrivener Helium Bangs Apex Apex Syntax Join the Marked 3 Beta LG 32 Inch UltraFine™evo 6K Nano IPS Black Monitor with Thunderbolt™ 5 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Brett + 2 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast Jeff: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. The three of us are all together for the first time since the Carter administration. Um, it is great to see you both here. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel if I didn’t say that already. Um, and I’m here with Christina Warren and I’m here with Brett Terpstra and hello to both of you. Brett: Hi. Jeff: Great to see you both. Brett: Yeah, it’s good to see you too. I feel like I was really deadpan in the pre-show. I’ll try to liven it up for you. I was a horrible audience. You were cracking jokes and I was just Jeff: that’s true. Christina, before you came on, man, I was hot. I was on fire and Brett was, all Brett was doing was chewing and dropping Popsicle parts. Brett: Yep. I ate, I ate part of a coconut outshine Popsicle off of a concrete floor, but Jeff: It is true, and I didn’t even see him check it [00:01:00] for cat hair, Brett: I did though. Jeff: but I believe he did because he’s a, he’s a very Brett: I just vacuumed in Jeff: He’s a very good American Brett: All right. Christina’s Health Journey Brett: Well, um, I, Christina has a lot of health stuff to share and I wanna save time for that. So let’s kick off the mental health corner. Um, let’s let Christina go first, because if it takes the whole show, it takes the whole show. Go for it. Christina: Uh, I, I will not take this hold show, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, my mental health is okay-ish. Um, I would say the okay-ish part is, is because of things that are happening with my physical health and then some of the medications that I’ve had to be on, um, uh, to deal with it. Uh, prednisone. Fucking sucks, man. Never nev n never take it if you can avoid it. Um, but why Christina, why are you on prednisone or why were you on prednisone for five days? Um, uh, and I’m not anymore to be clear, but that certainly did not help my mental health. Um, at the beginning of November, I woke up and I thought that I’d [00:02:00] slept on my shoulder wrong. And, um, uh, and, and just some, some background. I, I don’t know if this is pertinent to how my injury took place or not, but, but it, I’m sure that it didn’t help. Um, I have scoliosis and in the top and the bottom of my spine, so I have it at the top of my, like, neck area and my lower back. And so my back is like a crooked s um, this will be relevant in a, in a second, but, but I, I thought that I had slept on my back bunny, and I was like, okay, well, all right, it hurts a lot, but fine. Um, and then it, a, a couple of days passed and it didn’t get any better, and then like a week passed and I was at the point where I was like, I almost feel like I need to go to the. Emergency room, I’m in pain. That is that significant. Um, and, you know, didn’t get any better. So I took some of grant’s, Gabapentin, and I took, um, some, some, uh, a few other things and I was able to get in with like a, a, a sports and spine guy. Um, and um, [00:03:00] he looked at me and he was like, yeah, I think that you have like a, a, a bolting disc, also known as a herniated disc. Go to physical therapy. See me later. We’ll, we’ll deal with it. Um. Basically like my whole left side was, was, was really sore and, and I had a lot of pain and then I had numbness in my, my fingers and um, and, and that was a problem the next day, which was actually my birthday. The numbness had at this point spread to my right side and also my lower extremities. And so at this point I called the doctor and he was like, yeah, you should go to the er. And so I went to the ER and, and they weren’t able to do anything for me other than give me, you know, like, um, you know, I was hoping they might give me like, some sort of steroid injection or something. They wouldn’t do anything other than, um, basically, um, they gave me like another type of maybe, maybe pain pill or whatever. Um, but that allowed the doctor to go ahead and. Write, uh, write up an MRI took forever for me to get an MRI, I actually had to get it in Atlanta. [00:04:00] Fun fact, uh, sometimes it is cheaper to just pay and not go through insurance and get an MR MRI and, um, a, um, uh, an x-ray, um, I was able to do it for $450 Jeff: Whoa. Really? Christina: Yeah, $400 for the MR mri. $50 for the x-ray. Jeff: Wow. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: how I, they, I had an MRI, they charged me like $1,200 and then they failed to bill insurance ’cause I was between insurance. Christina: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was, and and honestly that was gonna be the situation that I was in, not between insurance stuff, but they weren’t even gonna bill insurance. And insurance only approved certain facilities and to get into those facilities is almost impossible. Um, and so, no, there are a lot of like get an MR, I now get a, you know, mammogram, get ghetto, whatever places. And because America’s healthcare system is a HealthScape, you can bypass insurance and they will charge you way less than whatever they bill insurance for. So I, I don’t know if it’s part of the country, you know, like Seattle I think might [00:05:00] probably would’ve been more expensive. But yeah, I was able to find this place like a mile from like, not even a mile from where my parents lived, um, that did the x-rays and the MRI for $450 total. Brett: I, I hate, I hate that. That’s true, but Christina: Me too. Me too. No, no. It pisses me off. Honestly, it makes me angry because like, I’m glad that I was able to do that and get it, you know, uh, uh, expedited. Then I go into the spine, um, guy earlier this week and he looks at it and he’s like, yep, you’ve got a massive bulging disc on, on C seven, which is the, the part of your lower cervical or cervical spine, which is your neck. Um, and it’s where it connects to your ver bray. It’s like, you know, there are a few things you can do. You can do, you know, injections, you can do surgery. He is like, I’m gonna recommend you to a neurosurgeon. And I go to the neurosurgeon yesterday and he was showing me or not, uh, yeah, yesterday he was showing me the, the, the, the scans and, and showing like you up close and it’s, yeah, it’s pretty massive. Like where, where, where the disc is like it is. You could see it just from one view, like, just from like [00:06:00] looking at it like, kind of like outside, like you could actually like see like it was visible, but then when you zoomed in it’s like, oh shit, this, this thing is like massive and it’s pressing on these nerves that then go into my, my hands and other areas. But it’s pressing on both sides. It’s primarily on my left side, but it’s pressing on on my right side too, which is not good. So, um, he basically was like, okay. He was like, you know, this could go away. He was like, the pain isn’t really what I’m wanting to, to treat here. It’s, it’s the, the weakness because my, my left arm is incredibly weak. Like when they do like the, the test where like they, they push back on you to see like, okay, like how, how much can you, what, like, I am, I’m almost immediately like, I can’t hold anything back. Right? Like I’m, I’m, I’m like a toddler in terms of my strength. So, and, and then I’m freaked out because I don’t have a lot of feeling in my hands and, and that’s terrifying. Um, I’m also. Jeff: so terrifying, Christina: I’m, I’m also like in extreme pain because of, of, of where this sits. Like I can’t sleep well. Like [00:07:00] the whole thing sucks. Like the MRI, which was was like the most painful, like 25 minutes, like of my existence. ’cause I was laying flat on my back. I’m not allowed to move and I’m just like, I’m in just incredible pain with that part of, of, of, of my, my side. Like, it, it was. It was terrible. Um, but, uh, but he was like, yeah. Um, these are the sorts of surgical options we have. Um, he’s gonna, um, do basically what what he wants to do is basically do a thing where he would put in a, um, an artificial or, or synthetic disc. So they’re gonna remove the disc, put in a synthetic one. They’ll go in through the, the front of my throat to access the, my, my, my, my spine. Um, put that there and, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll be overnight in the hospital. Um, and then it’ll be a few weeks of recovery and the, the, the pain should go away immediately. Um, but it, it could be up to two years before I get full, you know, feeling back in my arm. So anyway, Jeff: years, Jesus. And Christina: I mean, and hopefully less than that, but, but it could be [00:08:00] up to that. Jeff: there’s no part of this at this point. That’s a mystery to you, right? Christina: The mystery is, I don’t know how this happened. Jeff: You don’t know how it happened, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: So tell, tell us about the ghastly surgery. The, the throat thing really threw me like, I can’t imagine that Christina: yeah, yeah. So, well, ’cause the thing is, is that usually if what they just do, like spinal fusion, they’ll go in at the back of your neck, um, and then they’ll remove the, the, um, the, the, the, the disc. And then they’ll fuse your, your, your two bones together. Basically. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fuse this part of the vertebrae, but because they’re going to be replacing the, the disc, they need more room. So that’s why they have to go in through the, through, through basically your throat so that they can have more room to work. Jeff: Good lord. No thank you. Brett: Ugh. Wow. Jeff: Okay. Brett: I am really sorry that is happening. That is, that is, that dwarfs my health concerns. That is just constant pain [00:09:00] and, and it would be really scary. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not great. It’s not great, but I’m, I’m, I’m doing what I can and, uh, like I have, you know, a small amount of, of Oxycodine and I have like a, a, a, you know, some other pain medication and I’m taking the gabapentin and like, that’s helpful. The bad part is like your body, like every 12, 15 hours, like whatever, like the, the, the cycle is like, you feel it leave your system and like if you’re asleep, you wake up, right? Like, it’s one of those things, like, you immediately feel it, like when it leaves your system. And I’ve never had to do anything for pain management before. And they have me on a very, they have me like on the smallest amount of like, oxycodone you can be on. Um, and I’m using it sparingly because I don’t wanna, you know, be reliant on, on it or whatever. But it, it, but it is one of those things where I’m like, yeah, like sometimes you need fucking opiates because, you know, the pain is like so constant. And the thing is like, what sucks is that it’s not always the same type of pain. Like sometimes it’s throbbing, sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s like whatever. It sucks. But the hardest thing [00:10:00] is like, and. This does impact my mental health. Like it’s hard to sleep. Like, and I’m a side sleeper. I’m a side sleeper, and I’m gonna have to become a back sleeper. So, you know. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s not great. It’s not great, but, you know, that, that, that, that, that’s me. The, the good news is, and I’m very, very gratified, like I have a good surgeon. Um, I’m gonna be able to get in to get this done relatively quickly. He had an appointment for next week. I don’t think that insurance would’ve even been able to approve things fast enough for, for, for that regard. And I have, um, commitments that I can’t make then. And I, and that would also mean that I wouldn’t be able to go visit my family for Christmas. So hopefully I’ll do it right after Christmas. I’m just gonna wait, you know, for, for insurance to, to do its thing, knock on wood, and then schedule, um, from there. But yeah, Jeff: Woof. Christina: so that’s me. Um, uh, who wants to go next? Jeff or, uh, Jeff or Brett? Jeff: It’s like, that’s me. Hot potato throwing it. Brett: I’ll, I’ll go. Brett’s Insurance Woes Brett: I can continue on the insurance topic. Um, I was, for a few months [00:11:00] after getting laid off, I was on Minsu, which is Minnesota’s Medicaid, um, v version of Medicaid. And so basically I paid nothing and I had better insurance than I usually have with, uh, you know, a full deductible and premiums and everything. And it was fantastic. I was getting all the care I needed for all of the health stuff I’m going through. Um, I, they, a, a new doctor I found, ordered the 15 tests and I passed out ’cause it was so much blood and. And it, I was getting, but I was getting all these tests run. I was getting results, we were discovering things. And then my unemployment checks, the income from unemployment went like $300 over the cap for Medicaid. So [00:12:00] all of a sudden, overnight I was cut from Medicaid and I had to do an early sign up, and now I’m on courts and it sucks bad. Like they’re not covering my meds. Last month cost me $600. I was also paying. In addition to that, a $300 premium plus every doctor’s visit is 50 bucks out of pocket. So this will hopefully only last until January, and then it’ll flip over and I will be able to demonstrate basically no income, um, until like Mark makes enough money that it gets reported. Um, and even, uh, until then, like I literally am making under the, the poverty limit. So, um, I hope to be back on Medicaid shortly. I have one more month. I’ll have to pay my $600 to refill. I [00:13:00] cashed out my 401k. Um, like things were, everything was up high enough that I had made, I. I had made tens of thousands of dollars just on the investments and the 401k, but I also have a lot of concerns about the market volatility around Nvidia and the AI bubble in general. Um, so taking my money out of the market just felt okay to me. I paid the 10%, uh, penalty Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: and ultimately I, I came out with enough cash that I can invest on my own and be able to cover the next six months. Uh, if I don’t have any other income, which I hope to, I hope to not spend my nest egg. Um, but I did, I did a lot of thinking and calculating and I think I made the right choices. But anyway, [00:14:00] that will help if I have to pay for medical stuff that will help. Um. And then I’ve had insomnia, bad on and off. Right now I’m coming off of two days of good sleep. You’re catching me on a good day. Um, but Jeff: Still wouldn’t laugh at my jokes. Brett: before that it was, well, that’s the thing is like before that, it was four nights where I slept two to four hours per night, and by the end of it, I could barely walk. And so two nights of sleep after a stint like that, like, I’m just super, I’m deadpan, I’m dazed. Um, I could lay down and fall asleep at any time. Um, I, so, so keep me awake. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Mental health is good. Like I’m in pretty high spirits considering all this, like financial stuff and everything. Like my mood has been pretty stable. I’ve been getting a lot of coding done. I’ll tell you about projects in [00:15:00] a minute, but, um, but that’s, that’s me. I’m done. Jeff: Awesome. I’m enjoying watching your cat roll around, but clearly cannot decide to lay down at this point. Brett: No, nobody is very persnickety. Jeff: I literally have to put my. Well, you say put a cat down like you used to. When you put a kid down for a nap, you say you wanna put ’em down. Right? That’s where it’s coming from. I now have a chair next to my desk, ’cause I have one cat that walks around Yowling at about 11:00 AM while I’m working. And I have to like, put ’em down for a nap. It’s pathetic. It’s pathetic that I do that. Let’s just be clear. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: soulmate though. Jeff’s Mental Health Update Jeff: Um, I’m doing good. I’m, I’m, I’ve been feeling kind of light lately in a nice way. I’ve had ups and downs, but even with the ups and downs, there’s like a, except for one day last week was, there’s just been feeling kind of good in general, which is remarkable in a way. ’cause it’s just like stressful time. There’s some stressful business stuff, like, [00:16:00] a lot of stuff like that. But I’m feeling good and, and just like, uh, yeah, just light. I don’t know, it’s weird. Like, I’ve just been noticing that I feel kind of light and, uh. And not, not manic, not high light. Brett: Yeah. No, that’s Jeff: uh, and that’s, that’s lovely. So yeah. And so I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I fucking, it’s cold. Which sucks ’cause it just means for everybody that’s heard about my workshop over the years, that I can’t really go out there and have it be pleasant Brett: It’s, it’s been Minnesota thus far. Has had, we’ve had like one, one Sub-Zero day. Jeff: whatever. It’s fucking cold. Christina: Yeah. What one? Brett? Brett. It’s December 6th as we’re recording this one Sub-Zero day. That’s insane. Brett: Is it Jeff: Granted, granted I’ve been dressing warm, so I’m ready to go out the door for ice related things. Meaning, meaning government, ice, Brett: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Jeff: So I like wear my long underwear during [00:17:00] the day. ’cause actually like recently. So at my son’s school, which is like six blocks from here, um, has a lot of Somali immigrants in it. And, and uh, and there was a, at one point there was ice activity in the other direction, um, uh, uh, near me. And so neighbors put out a call here around so that at dismissal time people would pair up at all the intersections surrounding the school. And, um, and like a quick signal group popped up, whatever. It was so amazing because like we all just popped out there. And by the time I got out, uh, everyone was already like, posted up and I was like, I’m a, in these situations, I am a wanderer. You want me roaming? I don’t want to pair up with somebody I don’t like, I just, I grabbed a camera with a Zoom on it and like, I was like, I’m in roam. Um, it’s what I was as an activist, what I was as a reporter, like it’s just my nature. Um, but like. Everybody was out and like, and they were just like, they were ready man. And then we got like the all clear and you could just see people in the [00:18:00] neighborhood just like standing down and going home. But because of the true threat and the ongoing arrests here, now that the Minneapolis stuff has started, like I do, I was like wearing long underwear just, and I have a little bag by the door ready to like pop out if something comes up and I can be helpful. Um, and uh, and I guess what I’m saying is I should use that to go into the garage as well if I’m already prepared. Brett: Right. Jeff: But here’s, okay, so here’s a mental health thing actually. So I, one of the, I’ve gone through a few years of just sort of a little bit of paralysis around being able to just, I don’t know what, like do anything that is kind of project related that takes some thinking, whatever it is, like I’m talking about around the house or things that have kind of broken over the years, whatever. So I’ve had this snowblower and it’s a really good snowblower. It’s got headlights. And, uh, and I used to love snow blowing the entire block. Like it just made me feel good, made me feel useful. Um, and sorry I cough. I left it outside for a [00:19:00] year for a, like a winter and a spring and water got into the gas tank. It rusted out in there. I knew I couldn’t start it or I’d ruin the whole damn engine. So I left it for two years and I felt bad about myself. But this year, just like probably a month before the first big snowfall, I fucking replaced a gas tank and a carburetor on a machine. And I have never done anything like that in my life. And so then we got the snowfall and I, and I snow blowed this whole block Brett: Nice. Jeff: great. ’cause now they all owe me. Brett: I, uh, I have a, uh, so I have a little electric powered, uh, snowblower that can handle like two inches of snow. Um, and, and on big snowfalls, if you get out there every hour and keep up with it, it, it works. But, but I, my back right now, I can’t stand for, I can’t stand still for 10 minutes and I can’t move for more than like five minutes. And so I’m, I’m very disabled and El has good days and bad days, uh, thus [00:20:00] far. L’s been out there with a shovel, um, really being the hero. But we have a next door neighbor with a big gas powered snowblower. And so we went over, brought them gifts, and, um, asked if they would take care of our driveway on days we couldn’t, uh, for like, you know, we’d pay ’em 25 bucks to do the driveway. And, uh, and they were, he was still reluctant to accept money. Um. But, but we both agreed it was better to like make it a, a transaction. Jeff: Oh my God. You don’t want to get into weird Minnesota neighbor relational. Brett: right. You don’t want the you owe me thing. Um, so, so we have that set up. But in the process we made really good friends with our neighbor. Like we sat down in their living room for I think 45 minutes and just like talked about health and politics and it was, it was really fun. They’re, they’re retired. They’re in their [00:21:00] seventies and like act, he always looks super grumpy. I always thought he was a mean old man. He’s actually, he laughs more easily than most people I’ve ever met. Um, he’s actually, when people say, oh, he is actually a teddy bear, this guy really is, he’s just jovial. Uh, he just has resting angry old man face. Jeff: Or like my, I have public mis throat face, like when I’m out and about, especially when I’m shopping, I know that my face is, I’m gonna fucking kill you if you look me in the eye Brett: I used Jeff: is not my general disposition. Brett: people used to tell me that about myself, but I feel like I, I carry myself differently these days than I did when I was younger. Jeff: You know what I learned? Do you, have you both watched Veep, Christina: Yes, Jeff: you know, Richard sp split, right? Um, and, and he always kind of has this sweet like half smile and he is kind of looking up and I, I figured out at one point I was in an airport, which is where my kill everybody face especially comes up. Just to be clear. TSA, it’s just a feeling inside. I [00:22:00] have no desire to act to this out. I realized that if I make the Richard Plet face, which I can try to make for you now, which is something like if I just make the Richard Plet face, my whole disposition Brett: yeah. Yeah. Jeff: uh, and I even feel a little better. And so I just wanna recommend that to people. Look up Richard Spt, look at his face. Christina: Hey, future President Bridges split. Jeff: future President Richard Splat, also excellent in the Detroiters. Um, that’s all, uh, that’s all I wanted to say about that. Brett: I have found that like when I’m texting with someone, if I start to get frustrated, you know, you know that point where you’re still adding smiley emoticons even though you’re actually not, you’re actually getting pissed off, but you don’t wanna sound super bitchy about it, so you’re adding smile. I have found that when I add a smiley emoji in those circumstances, if I actually smile before I send it, it like my [00:23:00] mood will adjust to match, to match the tone I’m trying to convey, and it lessens my frustration with the other person. Jeff: a little joy wrist rocket. Christina: Yeah. Hey, I mean, no, but hey, but, but that, that, that, that, that’s interesting. I mean, they’re, they, they’ve done studies that like show that, right? That like show like, you know, I mean, like, some of this is all like bullshit to a certain extent, but there is something to be said for like, you know, like the power of like positive thinking and like, you know, if you go into things with like, different types of attitudes or even like, even if you like, go into job interviews or other situations, like you act confident or you smile, or you act happy or whatever. Even if you’re not like it, the, the, the, the euphoria, you know, that those sorts of uh, um, endorphin reactions or whatever can be real. So that’s interesting. Brett: Yeah, I found, I found going into job interviews with my usual sarcastic and bitter, um, kind of mindset, Jeff: I already hate this job. Brett: it doesn’t play well. It doesn’t play well. So what are your weaknesses? Fuck off. Um,[00:24:00] Christina: right. Well, well, well, I hate people. Jeff: Yeah. Dealing with motherfuckers like you, that’s one weakness. Sponsor Spot: Shopify Brett: let’s, uh, let’s do a sponsor spot and then I want to hear about Christina winning a contest. Christina: yes. Jeff: very Brett: wanna, you wanna take it away? Sponsor: Shopify Jeff: I will, um, our sponsor this week is Shopify. Um, have you ever, have you just been dreaming of owning your own business? Is that why you can’t sleep? In addition to having something to sell, you need a website. And I’ll tell you what, that’s been true for a long time. You need a payment system, you need a logo, you need a way to advertise new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that is where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use [00:25:00] templates. 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That was Jeff: Yeah. Cha-ching Brett: they got the chorus, they got the Overtired Christina: You did. You got the Overtired Jeff: They didn’t think to ask for it, but that’s our brand. Christina: shopify.com/ Overtired. Jeff Tweedy Jeff: What was, uh, I was watching a Stephen Colbert interview with Jeff Tweedy, who just put out a triple album and, uh, it was a very thoughtful, sweet interview. And then Stephen Colbert said, you know, you’re not supposed to do this. And Jeff Tweety said, it’s all part of my career long effort to leave the public wanting less. Christina: Ha, Jeff: That was a great bit. Christina: that’s a fantastic bit. A side note, there are a couple of really good NPR, um, uh, tiny desks that have come out in the last couple of month, uh, couple of weeks. Um, uh, one is shockingly, I, I’ll, I’ll just be a a, a fucking boomer about it. The Googo dolls. Theirs was [00:27:00] great. It’s fantastic. They did a great job. It already has like millions of views, like it wrecked up like over a million views, I think like in like, like less than 24 hours. They did a great job, but, uh, but Brandy Carlisle, uh, did one, um, the other day and hers is really, really good too. So, um, so yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Anyway, you said, you saying Jeff pd maybe, I don’t know how I got from Wilco to like, you know, there, Jeff: Yeah. Well, they’ve done some good, he’s done his own good Christina: he has, he has done his own. Good, good. That’s honestly, that’s probably what I was thinking of, but Jeff: It’s my favorite Jeff besides me because Bezos, he’s not in the, he’s not in the game. Christina: No. No, he’s not. No. Um, he, he’s, he’s not on the Christmas card list at all. Jeff: Oh man. Jeff’s Concert Marathon Jeff: Can I just tell you guys that I did something, um, I did something crazy a couple weeks ago and I went to three shows in one week, like I was 20 fucking two, Brett: Good grief. Jeff: and. It was a blast. So, okay, so the background of this is my oldest son [00:28:00] loves hip hop, and when we drive him to college and back, or when I do, it’s often just me. Um, he, he goes deep and he, it’s a lot of like, kind of indie hip hop and a lot. It’s just an interesting, he listens to interesting shit, but he will go deep and he’ll just like, give me a tour through someone’s discography or through all their features somewhere, whatever it is. And like, it’s the kind of input that I love, which is just like, I don’t, even if it’s not my genre, like if you’re passionate and you can just weave me through the interrelationship and the history and whatever it is I’m in. So as a result of that, made me a huge fan of Danny Brown and made me a huge fan of the sky, Billy Woods. And so what happened was I went to a hip hop show at the seventh Street entry, uh, which is attached to First Avenue. It’s a little club, very small, lovely little place, the only place my band could sell out. Um, and I watched a hip hop show there on a Monday night, Tuesday night. I went to the Uptown Theater, which Brett is now a actually an operating [00:29:00] theater for shows. Uh, and I, and I saw Danny Brown, but I also saw two hyper pop bands, a genre I was not previously aware of, including one, which was amazing, called Fem Tenal. And I was in line to get into that show behind furries, behind trans Kids. Like it was this, I was the weirdest, like I did not belong. Underscores played, and, and this will mean something to somebody out there, but not, didn’t mean anything to me until that night. And, uh. I felt like such, there were times, not during Danny Brown, Danny Brown’s my age all good. But like there were times where I was in the crowd ’cause I’m tall. Anybody that doesn’t know I’m very tall and I’m wearing like a not very comfortable or safe guy seeming outfit, a black hoodie, a black stocking cap. Like I basically looked like I’m possibly a shooter and, and I’m like standing among all these young people loving it, but feeling a little like, should I go to the back? Even like I was leaving that show [00:30:00] and the only people my age were people’s parents that were waiting to pick them up on the way out. So anyway, that was night two. Danny Brown was awesome. And then two nights later I went to see, this is way more my speed, a band called the Dazzling Kilman who were a band that. Came out in the nineties, St. Louis and a noisy Matthew Rock. Wikipedia claims they invented math rock. It’s a really stupid claim, uh, but it’s a lovely, interesting band and it’s a friend of mine named Nick Sakes, who’s who fronted that band and was in all these great bands back when I was in bands called Colos Mite and Sick Bay, and all this is great shit. So they played a reunion show. In this tiny punk rock club here called Cloudland, just a lovely little punk rock club. And, um, and, and that was like rounded out my week. So like, I was definitely, uh, a tourist the early part of the week, mostly at the Danny Brown Show. But then I like got to come home to my noisy punk rock [00:31:00] on, uh, on Thursday night. And I, I fucking did three shows and it hurt so bad. Like even by the first of three bands on the second night. I was like, I don’t think I can make it. And I do. I already pregame shows with ibuprofen. Just to be really clear, I microdose glucose tabs at shows like, like I am, I am a full on old man doing these things. But, um, I did get some cred with my kids for being at a hyper pop show all by myself. And, Christina: Hell yeah. A a Jeff: friends seemed impressed. Christina: no, as a as, as as they should be. I’m impressed. And like, and I, I, I typically like, I definitely go to like more of like, I go, I go to shows more frequently and, and I’m, I’m even like, I’m, I’m gonna be real with you. I’m like, yeah, three in one week. Jeff: That’s a lot. Christina: That’s a lot. That’s a lot. Jeff: man. Did I feel good when I walked home from that last show though? I was like, I fucking did it. I did not believe I wasn’t gonna bail on at least two of those shows, if not all three. Anyway, just wanted to say Brett: I [00:32:00] do like one show a year, but Jeff: that’s how I’ve been for years this year. I think I’ve seen eight shows. Brett: damn. Jeff: Yeah, it’s Brett: Alright, so you’ve been teasing us about this, this contest you won. Jeff: Yeah, please, Christina. Sorry to push that off. Christina: No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s completely okay. That, that, that, that’s great. Uh, no. Christina Wins Big Christina: So, um, I won two six K monitors. Brett: Damn. Jeff: is that what those boxes are behind you? Christina: Yeah, yeah. This is what the boxes are behind me, so I haven’t been able to get them up because this happened. I got them literally right in the midst of all this stuff with my back. Um, but I do have an Ergotron poll now that is here, and, and Grant has said that he will, will get them up. But yeah, so I won 2 32 inch six K monitors from a Reddit contest. Brett: How, how, how, Jeff: How does this happen? How do I find a Reddit contest? Christina: Yeah. So I got lucky. So I have, I, I have a clearly, well, well, um, there was a little, there was a little bit of like, other step to it than that, but like, uh, so how it worked was basically, um, LG is basically just put out [00:33:00] two, they put out a new 32 inch six K monitor. I’ll have it linked in, in, in the show notes. Um, so we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but like one of my big, like. Pet peeve, like things that I can’t get past. It’s like I need like a retina screen. Like I need like the, the perfect pixel doubling thing for that the Mac Os deals with, because I’ve used a 5K screen, either through an iMac or um, an lg, um, ultra fine or, um, a, uh, studio display. For like 11 years. And, and I, and I’ve been using retina displays on laptops even longer than that. And so if I use like a regular 4K display, like it just, it, it doesn’t work for me. Um, you can use apps like, um, like better control and other things to kind of emulate, like what would be like if you doubled the resolution, then it, it down, you know, um, of samples that, so that. It looks better than, than if it’s just like the, the, the 4K stuff where in the, the user interface things are too big and whatnot. And to be clear, this is a Macco West problem. If [00:34:00] you are using Windows or Linux or any other operating system that does fractional scaling, um, correctly, then this is not a problem. But Macco West does not do fractional scaling direct, uh, correctly. Um, weirdly iOS can, like, they can do three X resolution and other things. Um, but, but, but Macs does not. And that’s weird because some of the native resolutions on some of the MacBook errors are not even perfectly pixeled doubled, meaning Apple is already having to do a certain amount of like resolution changes to, to fit into their own, created by their, their own hubris, like way of insisting on, on only having like, like two x pixel doubling 18 years ago, we could have had independent, uh, resolutions, uh, um, for, for UI elements and, and, and window bars. But anyway, I, I’m, I’m digressing anyway. I was looking at trying to get either a second, uh, studio display, which I don’t wanna do because Apple’s reportedly going to be putting out a new one. Um, and they’re expensive or getting, um, there are now a number of different six K [00:35:00] displays that are not $6,000 that are on the market. So, um, uh, uh, Asus has one, um, there is one from like a, a Chinese company called like, or Q Con that, um, looks like a, a complete copy of this, of the pro display XDR. It has a different panel, but it’s, it’s six K and they, they’ve copied the whole design and it’s aluminum and it’s glossy and it looks great, but I’d have to like get it from like. A weird distributor, and if I have any issues with it, I don’t really wanna have to send it back to China and whatnot. And then LG has one that they just put out. And so I’ve been researching these on, on Mac rumors and on some other forums. And, um, I, uh, I, somebody in one of the Mac Roomers forums like posted that there was like a contest that LG was running in a few different subreddits where they were like, tell us why you should get one of, like, we’re gonna be giving away like either one or two monitors, and I guess they did this in a few subreddits. Tell us why this would be good for your workflow. And, um, I guess I, I guess I’m one of the people who kind of read the [00:36:00] assignment because it, okay, I’ll just be honest with this, with, with you guys on this podcast, uh, because I, I don’t think anyone from LG will hear this and my answers were accurate anyway. But anyway, this was not the sort of contest where it was like we will randomly select a winner. This was the moderators and lg, were going to read the responses and choose the winner. Jeff: Got it. Christina: So if you spend a little bit of time and thoughtfully write out a response, maybe you stand a better chance of winning the contest. Jeff: yeah, yeah. Put the work in like it was 2002. Christina: Right. Anyway, I still was shocked when I like woke up like on like Halloween and they were like, congratulations, you’ve won two monitors. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? Jeff: That’s amazing. Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff: Nice work. I know I’ve, you know, I’ve been staring at those boxes behind you this whole time, just being like, those look like some sweet monitors. Christina: yeah, yeah. Monitor Setup Challenges Christina: I mean, and, uh, [00:37:00] uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, and I, I’m very much, so my, my, my only issue is, okay, how am I gonna get these on my desk? So I’m gonna have to do something with my iMac and I’m probably gonna have to get rid of my, my my, my 5K, um, uh, uh, studio display, at least in the short term. Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles Christina: Um, but what I did do is I, um, I ordered from, um, Ergotron, ’cause I already have. Um, two of their, um, LX mounts, um, or, or, or, or arms. Um, and only one of them is being used right now. And then I have a different arm that I use for the, um, um, iMac. Um, they sell like a, if you call ’em directly, you can get them to send you a tall pole so that you can put the two arms on top of them. And that way I think I can like, have them so that I can have like one pole and then like have one on one side, one Jeff: I have a tall pole. Christina: and, and yeah, that’s what she said. Um, Jeff: as soon as I said it, I was like, for fuck’s sake. But Christina: um, but, uh, but, but yeah, but so that way I think I, I can, I, in theory, I can stack the market and have ’em side by side. I don’t know. Um, I got that. I, I had to call Tron and, and order that from them. [00:38:00] Um, it was only a hundred dollars for, for the poll and then $50 for a handling fee. Jeff: It’s not easy to ship a tall pole. Brett: That’s what she said. Christina: that is what she said. Uh, that is exactly what she said. But yeah, so I, I, the, the, the unfortunate thing is that, um, I, um, I, I had to, uh, get a, like all these, they, they came in literally right before Thanksgiving, and then I’ve had, like, all my back stuff has Jeff: Yeah, no Christina: debilitating, but I’m looking forward to, um, getting them set up and used. And, uh, yeah. Review Plans and Honest Assessments Christina: And then full review will be coming to, uh, to, I have to post a review on Reddit, but then I will also be doing a more in depth review, uh, on this podcast if anybody’s interested in, in other places too, to like, let let you know, like if it’s worth your money or not. Um, ’cause there, like I said, there are, there are a few other options out there. So it’s not one of those things where like, you know, um, like, thank you very much for the free monitor, um, monitors. But, but I, I will, I will give like the, the, you know, an honest assessment or Current Display Setup Brett: So [00:39:00] do you currently have a two display setup? Christina: No. Um, well, yes, and kind of, so I have my, my, I have my 5K studio display, and then I have like my iMac that I use as a two to display setup. But then otherwise, what I’ve had to do, and this is actually part of why I’m looking forward to this, is I have a 4K 27 inch monitor, but it’s garbage. And it, it’s one of those things where I don’t wanna use it with my Mac. And so I wind up only using it with my, with my Windows machine, with my framework desktop, um, with my Windows or Linux machine. And, and because that, even though I, it supports Thunderbolt, the Apple display is pain in the ass to use with those things. It doesn’t have the KVM built in. Like, it doesn’t like it, it just, it’s not good for that situation. So yeah, this will be of this size. I mean, again, like I, I, I’m 2 32 inch monitors. I don’t know how I’m gonna deal with that on my Jeff: I Brett: yeah. So right now I’m looking at 2 32 inch like UHD monitors, Christina: Yeah,[00:40:00] Brett: I will say that on days when my neck hurts, it sucks. It’s a, it’s too wide a range to, to like pan back and forth quickly. Like I’ll throw my back out, like trying to keep track of stuff. Um, but I have found that like if I keep the second display, just like maybe social media apps is the way I usually set it up. And then I only work on one. I tried buying an extra wide curve display, hated it. Jeff: Uh, I’ve always wanted to try one, but Christina: I don’t like them. Jeff: Yeah. Christina: Well, for me, well for me it’s two things. One, it’s the, I don’t love the whole like, you know, thing or whatever, but the big thing honestly there, if you could give me, ’cause people are like, oh, you can get a really big 5K, 2K display. I’m like, that’s not a 5K display. That is 2 27 inch, 1440 P displays. One, you know, ultra wide, which is great. Good for you. That’s not retina. And I’m a sicko Who [00:41:00] needs the, the pixel doubling? Like I wish that my eyes could not use that, but, but, but, Jeff: that needs the pixel. Like was that the headline of your Reddit, uh, Christina: no, no. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. But, but maybe it should be. Hi, I’m a sicko who only, um, fucks with, with, with, with, with, with, with retina displays. Ask me anything. Um, but no, but that’s a good point. Brett: I think 5K Psycho is the Christina: 5K Sicko is the po is the po title. I like that. I like that. No, what I’m thinking about doing and that’s great to know, Brett. Um, this kind of reaffirms my thing. Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences Christina: So what’s nice about these monitors is that they come with like, built in like, um, Thunderbolt 5K VM. So, which is nice. So you could conceivably have multiple, you know, computers, uh, connected, you know, to to, to one monitor, which I really like. Um, I mean like, ’cause like look, I, I’ve bitched and moaned about the studio display, um, primarily for the price, but at the same time, if mine broke tomorrow and if I didn’t have any way to replace it, I’ve, I’ve also gone on record saying I would buy a new one immediately. As mad as I am about a [00:42:00] lot of different things with that, that the built-in webcam is garbage. The, you know, the, the fact that there’s not a power button is garbage. The fact that you can’t use it with multiple inputs, it’s garbage. But it’s a really good display and it’s what I’m used to. Um, it’s really not any better than my LG Ultra fine from 2016. But you know what? Whatever it is, what it is. Um. I, I am a 5K sicko, but being able to, um, connect my, my personal machine and my work machine at the same time to one, and then have my Windows slash Linux computer connected to another, I think that’s gonna be the scenario where I’m in. So I’m not gonna necessarily be in a place where I’m like, okay, I need to try to look at both of them across 2 32 inch displays. ’cause I think that that, like, that would be awesome. But I feel like that’s too much. Brett: I would love a decent like Thunderbolt KVM setup that could actually swap like my hubs back and Christina: Yes. MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons Brett: Um, so, ’cause I, I have a studio and I have my, uh, Infor MacBook Pro [00:43:00] and I actually work mostly on the MacBook Pro. Um, but if I could easily dock it and switch everything on my desk over to it, I would, I would work in my office more often. ’cause honestly, the M four MacBook Pro is, it’s a better machine than the original studio was. Um, and I haven’t upgraded my studio to the latest, but, um, I imagine the new one is top notch. Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah. Brett: my, my other one, a couple years old now is already long in the tooth. Christina: No, I mean, they’re still good. I mean, it’s funny, I saw that some YouTube video the other day where they were like, the best value MacBook you can get is basically a 4-year-old M1 max. And I was like, I don’t know about that guys. Like, I, I kind of disagree a little bit. Um, but the M1 max, which is I think is what is in the studio, is still a really, really good ship. But to your point, like they’ve made those, um. You know, the, the, the new ones are still so good. Like, I have an M three max as my personal laptop, and [00:44:00] that’s kind of like the dog chip in the, in the m um, series lineup. So I kind of am regretful for spending six grand on that one, but it is what it is, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not upgrading. Um, I mean, maybe, maybe in, in next year if, if the M five Pro, uh, or M five max or whatever is, is really exceptional, maybe I’ll look at, okay, how much will you give me to, to trade it in? But even then, I, I, but I feel like I’m at that point where I’m like, it gets to a point where like it’s diminishing returns. Um, but, uh, just in terms of my own budget. But, um, yeah, the, the new just info like pro or or max, whatever, Brett: I have, I have an M four MacBook Pro sitting around that I keep forgetting to sell. Uh, it’s the one that I, it only had a 256 gigabyte hard drive, Jeff: what happened to me when I bought my M1, Brett: and I, and I regretted that enough that I just ordered another one. But, uh, for various reasons, I couldn’t just return the one I didn’t Jeff: ’cause it was.[00:45:00] Brett: so now I, now I have to sell it and I should sell it while it’s still a top of the line machine Christina: Sell it before, sell, sell, sell, sell it before next month, um, or, or February or whenever they sell it before then the, the pros come out. ’cause right now the M five base is out, but the pros are not. So I think feel like you could still get most of your value for it, especially since it has very few battery cycles. Be sure to put the battery cycles on your Facebook marketplace or eBay thing or whatever. Um, I bought my, uh, she won’t listen to this so she won’t know, but, um, they, there was a, a killer Cyber Monday deal, uh, for Best Buy where they had like a, the, the, the, so it’s several years old, but it was the, the M two MacBook Air, but the one that they upgraded to 16 gigs of Ram when Apple was like, oh, we have to have Apple Intelligence and everything, because they actually thought that they were actually gonna ship Apple Intelligence. So they like went back and they, like, they, they, you know, retconned like made the base model MacBook Air, like 16 [00:46:00] gigs. Um, and, uh, anyway, it was, it was $600, um, Jeff: still crazy. Christina: which, which like even for like a, a, a 2-year-old machine or whatever, I was like, yeah, she, my sister, I think she’s on like, like a 2014 or older than that. Like, like MacBook Air. She doesn’t even know where the MagSafe is. I don’t think she even knows where the laptop is. So she’s basically doing everything like on her phone and I’m like, okay, you need a laptop of some type, but at this point. I do feel strongly that like the, the, the $600 or, or, or actually I think it was $650, it was actually less, it is actually more expensive than what the, the, the Cyber Monday sale was, um, the M1, Walmart, MacBook Air. I’m like, absolutely not like that is at this point, do not buy that. Right? Like, I, especially with eight gigs of ram, I’m, I’m like, it’s been, it’s five years old. It’s a, it was a great machine and it was great value for a long time. $200. Cool, right? Like, if you could get something like use and, and, and, and if you could replace the battery or, you know, [00:47:00] for, for, you know, not, not too much money or whatever. Like, I, I, I could see like an argument to be made like value, right? But there’d be no way in hell that I would ever spend or tell anybody else to spend $650 on that new, but $600 for an M two with Jeff: Now we’re talking. Christina: which has the redesign brand new. I’m like, okay. Spend $150 more and you could have got the M four, um, uh, MacBook Air, obviously all around Better Machine. But for my sister, she doesn’t need that, Jeff: What do we have to do to put your sister in this M two MacBook Christina: that, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly it. So I, I, I was, well, also, it was one of those things I was like, I think that she would rather me spend the money on toys for my nephew for Santa Claus than, than, uh, giving her like a, a processor upgrade. Um, Jeff: Claus isn’t real. Brett: Oh shit. Jeff: Gotcha. Every year I spoil it for somebody. This year it was Christina and Brett. Sorry guys. Brett: right. Well, can I tell you guys Jeff: Yeah. [00:48:00] Brett Software. Brett: two quick projects before we do Jeff: Hold on. You don’t have to be quick ’cause you could call it Brett: We’re already at 45 minutes and I want Jeff: What I’m saying, skip GrAPPtitude. This is it? Brett: okay. Christina: us about Mark. Tell us about your projects. Brett: So, so Mark three is, there’s a public, um, test flight beta link. Uh, if you go to marked app.com, not marked two app.com, uh, marked app.com. Uh, you, there’s a link in the, in the, at the top for Christina: Join beta. Mm-hmm. Brett: Um, and that is public and you can join it and you can send me feedback directly through email because, um, uh, uh, the feedback reporter sucks for test flight and you can’t attach files. And half the time they come through as anonymous feedback and I can’t even follow up on ’em. So email me. But, um, I’ll be announcing that on my blog soon-ish. Um, right now there’s like [00:49:00] maybe a couple dozen, um, testers and I, it’s nice and small and I’m solving the biggest bugs right away. Um, so that’s been, that’s been big. Like Mark, even since we last talked has added. Do you remember Jeff when Merlin was on and he wanted to. He wanted to be able to manage his styles, um, and disable built-in styles. There’s now a whole table based style manager where you Jeff: saw that. Brett: you can, you can reorder, including built-in styles. You can reorder, enable, disable, edit, duplicate. Um, it’s like a full, full fledged, um, style manager. And I just built a whole web app that is a style generator that gives you, um, automatic like rhythm calculations for your CSS and you can, you can control everything through like, uh, like UI fields instead of having to [00:50:00] write CSS. Uh, but you can also o open up a very, I’ve spent a lot of time on the code mirror CSS editor in the web app. Uh, so, and it’s got live preview as you edit in the code mirror field. Um, so that’s pretty cool. And that’s built into marts. So if you go to style, um, generate style, it’ll load up a, a style generator for you. Anyway, there’s, there’s a ton. I’m not gonna go into all the details, but, uh, anyone listening who uses markdown for anything, especially if you want ability to export to like Word and epub and advanced PDF export, um, join the beta. Let me know what you think. Uh, help me squash bugs. But the other thing, every time I push a beta for review before the new bug reports come in, I’ve been putting time into a tool. Markdown Processor: Apex Brett: I’m calling [00:51:00] Apex and um, I haven’t publicly announced this one yet, but I probably will by the time this podcast comes out. Jeff: I mean, doesn’t this count? Brett: It, it does. I’m saying like this, this might be a, you hear you heard it here first kind of thing, um, but if you go to github.com/tt sc slash apex, um, I built a, uh, pure C markdown processor that combines syntax from cram down GitHub flavored markdown, multi markdown maku, um, common mark. And basically you can write syntax from any of those processors, including all of their special features, um, and in one document, and then use Apex in its unified mode, and it’ll just figure out what. All of your syntax is supposed to do. Um, so you can take, you can port documents from one platform to another [00:52:00] without worrying about how they’re gonna render. Um, if I can get any kind of adoption with Apex, it could solve a lot of problems. Um, I built it because I want to make it the default processor in marked ’cause right now, you, you have to choose, you know, cram Christina: Which one? Brett: mark and, and choosing one means you lose something in order to gain something. Um, so I wanted to build a universal one that brought together everything. And I added cool features from some extensions of other languages, such as if you have two lists in a row, normally in markdown, it’s gonna concatenate those into one list. Now you can put a carrot on a line between the two lists and it’ll break it into two lists. I also added support for a. An extension to cram down that lets you put double uh, carrots inside a table cell and [00:53:00] create a row band. So like a cell that, that expands it, you rows but doesn’t expand the rest of the row. Um, so you can do cell spans and row spans and it has a relaxed table version where you don’t have to have an alignment row, which is, uh, sometimes we just wanna make quickly table. You make two lines. You put some pipes in. This will, if there’s no alignment row, it will generate a table with just a table body and table data cells in no header. It also allows footers, you can add a footer to a table by using equals in the separator line. Um, it, it’s, Jeff: This is very civilized, Brett: it is. Christina: is amazing, Brett: So where Common Mark is extremely strict about things, um, apex is extremely permissive. Jeff: also itty bitty things like talk about the call out boxes from like Brett: oh yeah, it, it can handle call out syntax from Obsidian and Bear and Xcode Playgrounds. [00:54:00] Um, and it incorporates all of Mark’s syntax for like file includes and even renders like auto scroll pauses that work in marked and some other teleprompter situations. Um, it uses file ude syntax from multi markdown, like, which is just like a curly brace and, uh, marked, which is, uh, left like a double left, uh, angle bracket and then different. Brackets to surround a file name and it handles IA writer file inclusion where you just type a forward slash and then the name of a file and it automatically detects if that file is an image or source code or markdown text, and it will import it accordingly. And if it’s a CSV file, it’ll generate a table from it automatically. It’s, it’s kind of nuts. I, it’s kind of nuts. I could not have done this [00:55:00] without copilot. I, I am very thankful for copilot because my C skills are not, would not on their own, have been up to this task. I know enough to bug debug, but yeah, a lot of these features I got a big hand from copilot on. Jeff: This is also Brett. This is some serious Brett Terpstra. TURPs Hard Christina: Yeah, it is. I was gonna say, this is like Jeff: and also that’s right. Also, if your grandma ever wrote you a note and it, and though you couldn’t really read it, it really well, that renders perfectly Christina: Amazing. No, I was gonna say this is like, okay, so Apex is like the perfect name ’cause this is the apex of Brett. Jeff: Yes. Apex of Brett. Christina: That’s also that, that’s, that’s not an alternate episode title Apex of Brett. Because genuinely No, Brett, like I am, I am so stunned and impressed. I mean, you all, you always impressed me like you are the most impressive like developer that I, that I’ve ever known. But you, this is incredible. And, and this, I, I love this [00:56:00] because as you said, like common Mark is incredibly strict. This is incredibly permissive. But this is great. ’cause there are those scenarios where you might have like, I wanna use one feature from one thing or one from another, or I wanna combine things in various ways, or I don’t wanna have to think about it, you know? Brett: I aals, I forgot to mention I aals inline attribute list, which is a crammed down feature that lets you put curly brackets after like a paragraph and then a colon and then say, dot call out inside the curly brackets. And then when it renders the markdown, it creates that paragraph and adds class equals call out to the paragraph. Um, and in, in Cramon you can apply these to everything from list items to list to block quotes. Like you can do ’em for spans. You could like have one after, uh, link syntax and just apply, say dot external to a link. So the IAL syntax can add IDs classes and uh, arbitrary [00:57:00] attributes to any element in your markdown when it renders to HTML. And, uh, and Apex has first class support for I aals. Was really, that was, that Christina: that was really hard, Brett: I wrote it because I wanted, I wanted multi markdown, uh, for my prose writing, but I really missed the als. Christina: Yes. Okay. Because see, I run into this sort of thing too, right? Because like, this is a problem like that. I mean, it’s a very niche problem, um, that, that, you know, people who listen to this podcast probably are more familiar with than other types of people. But like, when you have to choose your markdown processor, which as you said, like Brett, like that can be a problem. Like, like with, with using Mark or anything else, you’re like, what am I giving up? What do I have? And, and like for me, because I started using mul, you know, markdown, um, uh, largely because of you, um, I think I was using it, I knew about it before you, but largely because of, of, of you, like multi markdown has always been like kind of my, or was historically my flavor of choice. It has since shifted to being [00:58:00] GitHub, labor bird markdown. But that’s just because the industry has taken that on, right? But there were, you know, certain things like in like, you know, multi markdown that work a certain way. And then yeah, there are things in crammed down. There are things in these other things in like, this is just, this is awesome. This Brett: It is, the whole thing is built on top of C mark, GFM, which is GitHub’s port of common mark with the GitHub flavored markdown Christina: Right. Brett: Um, and I built, like, I kept that as a sub-module, totally clean, and built all of this as extensions on top of Cmar, GFM, which, you know, so it has full compatibility with GitHub and with Common Merck by out, like outta the box. And then everything else is built on top of that. So it, uh, it covers, it covers all the bases. You’ll love it Christina: I’m so excited. No, this is awesome. And I Brett: blazing fast. It can render, I have a complex document that, that uses all of its features and it can render it in [00:59:00] 0.006 seconds. Christina: that’s awesome. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: That’s so cool. No, this is great. And yeah, I, and I think that honestly, like this is the sort of thing like if, yeah, if you can eventually get this to like be like the engine that powers like mark three, like, that’ll be really slick, right? Because then like, yeah, okay, I can take one document and then just, you know, kind of, you know, wi with, with the, you know, ha have, have the compatibility mode where you’re like, okay, the unified mode or whatever yo

Today we step into our final episode of the calendar year 2025. In this episode, you receive a HolyDays channeled message to connect into the 5D / Golden Age / Higher Self frequency and transcend the many false fear narratives of this time.Join us as we cover: *The currency of the artificial world*Counteract the noise in the artificial matrix*The frequency shift of this time*Upgrade your frequency *Be in the world but not of it*What makes the artificial world happy*What keeps you from living your Destiny*Receive a channeled transmission from Source, MM, Yeshua & all of the Highest Light*Perfect time for your enlightenment puts the agenda into hyperdrive*The most important thing for you to be doing at this time*How the 5D brings extremes into balance for your enlightenment*A formula for making Wise decisions during this pressurized time*How to live as you truly are now*Let go of dumbing yourself down to make others comfortable*How to live in Miracles*Break free of mistruths from the mainstream cult-ure, religions, New Age Spirituality, family systems*What the Golden Age is made up of (the finale-crescendo!)*Your True Identity & the Path of Enlightenment*What to do with Fear*Finish 2025 HolyDays Strong with us – watch on YT or see below12/12 Group Healing & MeditationJoin our 12/12 Enlightenment Meditation at 12noonPST LIVE or via replay. Register here: https://square.link/u/BWdkrDQ912/21 Soulstice RitualGet your copy of Love Now here, go to the December 20 entry for your ritual: https://amzn.to/48ISTV8 12/22 LOVE Group Activism for Love Activists & GuidesBecome a Certified Love Activist: https://sacred-spirituality.org/ltg/ If you'd like more: *Receive free transmissions and spirit-led living support at: Sacred-Spirituality.org*Receive The Angelics series here: https://hksbooksandcreations.etsy.com/listing/4399004492*Receive The Sovereignty Series Part 1 – Untangling from theMatrix: https://sacred-spirituality.org/product/sovereignty-series-untangling-from-the-matrix-healing/*Receive The Sovereignty Series Part 2 – Awakening The Feminine Christ: https://sacred-spirituality.org/product/sovereignty-series-phase-2-awaken-the-feminine-christ/

Sebastian Cail joins M|M to discuss his recent growth in social media and ALL his thoughts around it. Hoping to make this a continuous series to track the growth and see how he continues to navigate to keep a steady ascension in his growth curve. (tik tok & IG - @sebastiancail)

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.” Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear? What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space? For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.   Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.   Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship: Friendship with Drew Hunter Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman Art of Friendship with Kim Wier   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.   I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.   What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?   There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.   Here's our chat.   Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?   Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.   I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.   The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.   We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.   I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.   And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.   Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?   Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.   It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.   I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I'm the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.   We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.   Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”   So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.   And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?   Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.   And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”   And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”   And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”   And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”   But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.   Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.   And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.   So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.   But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”   Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.   So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.   And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.   It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.   So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.   And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.   And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.   And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.   And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.   But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.   Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?   Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.   But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.   I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.   And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”   And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.   And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.   But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”   And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.   And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”   And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”   And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”   And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.   And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”   And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.   So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”   Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?   Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.   So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.   Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.   And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.   And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.   So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.   Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.   So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?   But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.   Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?   Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.   And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.   So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.   And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.   And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”   And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”   And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 34:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University.   Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associate's degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. 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We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you. That if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year. There's multiple ways to do this. Online at thesavvysauce.com, you can donate through Stripe,  PayPal, or Venmo with just a simple click. Or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today and during this season especially.   It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?   Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”   And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.   And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.   I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?   So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.   Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?   Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can't keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.   And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?   Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.   Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.   And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.   So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.   Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?   Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.   Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?   Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.   I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.   Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.   Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.   Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.   So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.   So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?   And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.   So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.   And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?   Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”   And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”   Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?   Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.   And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.   Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends' reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.   So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.   Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it

Leslie Venetz is a top 1% B2B sales expert, sought-after speaker, and Founder of The Sales-Led GTM Agency. Recognized globally as a LinkedIn Editorial Top Voice, 5x Top 50 Sales Thought Leader, and 2024 Sales Innovator of the Year, Leslie is one of the most influential voices in modern sales. She has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, MorningBrew and Success Magazine and her content has been viewed over 100 MM times. Author of Top 50 USA Today best-seller Profit-Generating Pipeline: A Proven Formula to Earn Trust and Drive Revenue, Leslie helps outbound B2B sales organizations profitable sales strategies. LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/leslievenetz TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@salestipstok YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@b2bsalescoach Twitter: https://x.com/b2b_salescoach Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/b2bsalescoach/ Website: www.salesledgtm.com Book purchase link: www.salesledgtm.com/book/ Leslie's Business Book Club: www.lesliesbookclub.com Revenue Revelry Masterclasses: www.revenuerevelry.comConnect and tag me at:https://www.instagram.com/realangelabradford/You can subscribe to my YouTube Channel herehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDU9L55higX03TQgq1IT_qQFeel free to leave a review on all major platforms to help get the word out and change more lives!

Ped, Burk and guest Grace open the show discussing a horrid Black Friday experience and people dumbly slipping on ice. Another fantastic Tik Tok video series has reached Adam's algorithm, much to the chagrin of Ryan. Burk brings us his perfect song of the week and back by popular demand, THE ROTTEN TOMATOES GAME!! In the Meat, Mm!, we celebrate the Christmas season by reading real and fake Hallmark movie plots and seeing if Grace can guess correctly. We end with fondly remembering some 90's Christmas gifts. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His. Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy. The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption. Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people. The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner. Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power. The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her. Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose. The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk. Memorable Quotes "Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb "The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb "These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and. Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it. Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it. In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So [00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it. [00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan. Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is [00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me. [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous. [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. [00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance, [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners. Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group. And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn. There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True. Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready. [00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else. Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something. [00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving [00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions. True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem. And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more. So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted. So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest. So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar. If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule. And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions. And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell. The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary. Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this. [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way. Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history. So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction. And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right. It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out. And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of. So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um. Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances. But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it. Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes. Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai. And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee. So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see. We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least. [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken. [00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye. [00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here? [00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it? [00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too. [00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think [00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question. [00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and. That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local. Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody. I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel. So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption. That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness. Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill. All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come. And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today. Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit. Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them. We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption. [00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes, [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online. I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh. I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all? [00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably. [00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um. The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that [00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different. Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually. Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes, [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true [00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the. Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times. It was very, very good. [00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it. You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude. It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated. So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior. So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal? We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does. [00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time. Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but [00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though. [00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me [00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best? Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in? [00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like. [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand. [00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point. We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to? Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time. [00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15. [00:22:12] Discussion on the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them. And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive. Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight. Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like. Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners. He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right. This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not. Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it. And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what? 50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose. So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right? She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth. Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I [00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase. I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it? And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it. [00:27:44] Understanding the Parable's Context [00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us. [00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation. [00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we? [00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind. Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this. Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could. Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage. [00:28:57] The Significance of the Lost Coin [00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad. The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one. So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before. It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love. Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money. And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends. There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way. And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner. He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context. [00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:23] Theological Implications of God's People [00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son. Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people. As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past. Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen. He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right? There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great. Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right? But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new. These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl. This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation. But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. [00:34:53] God's Relentless Pursuit of Sinners [00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people. The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people. Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost. And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life. But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us. And these parables really speak against that [00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true. And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance. I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right? There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit. [00:38:12] Rejoicing in Salvation [00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished. And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself. [00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God. Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that. Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about. We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over. Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him. That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things. But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving. Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting. Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep. And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing. [00:42:43] The Joy of Redemption [00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing. That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing. The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So, [00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him. [00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is. And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners. [00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance. If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us. [00:44:41] Applying the Parable to Our Lives [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them. And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy. [00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process. And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose. Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him. So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine. I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying. Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us. I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin. They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run. After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you. [00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy. Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will. Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing. I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it. And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in [00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right. [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy. And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy. She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption. She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it. Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work. Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened. I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of. In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody. Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation. [00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so. Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy. In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation. And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin,

Onboarding a new team member has turned into a very transactional process. In this episode, Tiff and Monica discuss how to add authenticity, connection, and engagement to the mix. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Welcome back. I am just so happy to have all of you. know there are so many people out there that support the Dental A Team in so many amazing ways. And you guys being here downloading these podcasts and having that little, I know Apple allows the like auto download. I always love that. Cause when I'm on flights, I can just, you know, podcast. But you guys being here.   pushing those through for us, being here to just support who we are, what we do is so truly incredible, whether you're a client, a future client, or someone who's just here to listen and you're like, ⁓ you know, never gonna sign up, we don't really have a preference of how you get to us. We just love that you're here. We wanna deliver all of the most amazing information that we possibly can. You might notice we share a lot of information, a lot of tips and tricks, a lot of like, I don't know, feel like, Monica, I feel like they're like.   secrets, trade secrets, right? And people are like, gosh, I'll just listen to your podcast. I'm like, fantastic, do that, do that. When you're ready for someone like Monica, who I have here with us today, you guys, to be like, I'm gonna push you a little bit further. She's here, we're here, and we're ready to help you get to that next level. And as I said, you guys, this is a truly, truly exciting day for us. I have Monica back on the podcast with me today. I am so excited to have you here, Monica. I know.   Monica Gomez (00:57) ⁓ yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:20) Previously, I've kind of given a good spiel of who you are and how we found you. And we got to record a podcast, if you haven't listened to it yet, about this really hiring tips and strategies. But there's so much to learn about Monica, her coaching style and who she is in that episode. So if you haven't listened to it yet, go do that. And as an introduction today, Monica, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. And I just I'm excited to pick your brain. love I love watching.   I feel like I get to watch the flow of how thoughts come to you and it's just really fun and I love our time together. Thank you for blocking out your morning and being here with me this morning and Monica, how are you? How was your weekend? How's life? How's Monica?   Monica Gomez (02:05) ⁓ Life is great and I'm starting off my week with podcasting with you ⁓ and this is so fun. This is my second podcast and I'm so excited to be here. Our first one was really, there was a flow to it, right? It was a ⁓ great little conversation, valuable. We dropped lots of gems, you guys, so go listen to that podcast and I'm excited to be sharing this space again with you, Tish. Thank you for having me.   The Dental A Team (02:21) Yeah.   Thank you, thank you. I do love this and it actually makes me think this is like a little off topic here, but just for a smidgen of time. love the podcast space with you consultant ladies ⁓ on our team because I love that this is a space where I get to, I think I get to share how much I love you guys. Like how much admiration I have, how much I look up to you guys and get to like extract so much.   knowledge and input from you. And I think this is our space of like, truly having some connection time. And we have our one on ones, I mentioned that before, but those are so goal driven and work driven. It makes me think I love relationship and community. And I think that's something that humans are learning again, we're relearning that we need that. I think we lost that for a moment of time here recently and   in the years and we're coming back to that. You kind of don't know what you have until you lose it sometimes and we lost that space. And I think this is our space of true community. We do have our weekly meetings, we have our one-on-ones, we have our data-driven, work-driven time together, but the podcasting space is actually really special to me because I do get to, I get to get to like, want, we get to put you guys out there and I get to just spend this time with you.   And it makes me think you mentioned something on the last podcast that we had recorded together. You mentioned that intentional team time together and that like just clicked. As you're talking, like it clicked for me. This is our intentional time together and instilling that into, infusing that into the workplace. It's really special. And I want doctors and owners and leaders and anyone who's here, dental assistants, treatment coordinators, I don't care who you are. I want you to...   know from the bottom of my heart, this is a really special place and you don't need to go start a podcast unless you want to. But having that intentional time, like coffee time, like go in the break room and have coffee together and talk about your weekend. Like me getting to hear about Monica's family life and Charlie, her puppy, getting to know those pieces of you personally, it changes and it shifts our dynamic. So I wanted to highlight that because as you were speaking, I was like, my gosh, this is   Monica Gomez (04:44) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:57) something we haven't had yet because this is only our second podcast together, but that I know I do have with the other consultants and it just totally clicked for me because we just, think, mentioned that in the last one. So Monica, thank you for being here. Thank you for letting me say all that and for giving me this intentional time today.   Monica Gomez (05:15) Yeah, thanks, Tiff. Yeah, I think ⁓ this time together, we get to peek, a little peek behind the veil, right? And yeah, we do have a lot of connection time. It's structured time, right? But the value of unstructured time is just gold. is, ⁓ it builds trust, it builds ⁓ camaraderie, it builds affinity, it builds ⁓ an endearing, right? An endearing kind of sense of   The Dental A Team (05:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (05:44) of viewing the other person in a different light. So yeah, I think this is a powerful, like meaningful time. I agree with you. I agree with everything that you said. This is definitely a special magical space. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:53) Yeah.   Yeah, thank you.   Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And again, if you didn't listen to the last podcast, I know this is the third or fourth time we're saying it. You should. This is kind of I think Monica actually helped me choose today's topics that she wanted to speak on. I think they actually naturally flow together. So I would maybe even listen to this one after the last one or listen to this one. And then I don't care which order you do it in, but listen to both of them is my is my point here, because today we really we're going to talk about onboarding.   Monica Gomez (06:07) You   The Dental A Team (06:28) And you can onboard anyone, but I think maybe when we add in onboarding the right team member, because the last podcast we recorded was really how to hire the right team member and hiring with intentionality and meaning behind it. And the onboarding, Monica, I think has to flow off of that. If we're not continuously showing up as the person we wanted to hire, like we talked about in the last one.   If we show up in the interview space and we're like, this is who I want you to be, but then we're onboarding and we're like, meh, meh. We're like, this is boring person and we want somebody who's dynamic and fun and engaging and speaking to the patients, but we're like, not that person. I think it makes a huge difference. So Monica, as you've trained people, as you've onboarded, you've trained practices to do this, what are some key highlights that you like to infuse into the onboarding process?   Monica Gomez (07:16) Yeah, great topic. And I agree, this one goes hand in hand with our previous podcast. know, onboarding traditionally has been very much transactional, right? Here's your cubby, here's what you do, here's where you sit, here's how you answer the phones, right? We've got to move. Well, there's a part of it that has to be transactional because you have to learn, you know, what your job is and, you know, the daily to do's.   But I think if we lead with that, it's a mistake. ⁓ As I mentioned before, and we talked about how the workforce has changed, ⁓ and we're leading with connection and engagement and authenticity and all those components that make us unique, I think we, I really feel that we need to move.   from a transactional place to a transformational or transcendental. ⁓ It's gotta be more about behaviors, right? And how we wrap our arms around like this new person that's joining our little family, right? How would you like to be welcomed into a team that would make you feel welcome and received with open arms and warmth? That's how we have to welcome our new people.   The Dental A Team (08:19) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (08:37) You know, we've invested so much time and energy in interviewing our job post, our, you know, filtering our candidates, interviewing, that whole hiring process, offer letter, the whole nine yards. And then we just throw them in, sink or swim. We've got to add, we've got to be intentional and we've got to add more value to the onboarding piece because, you know, people sometimes are left thinking like, gosh,   The Dental A Team (08:55) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (09:06) this is not the place that I thought it was gonna be, right? Like make it the place that you post it on your job ad, right? Like create, you get to be the creator. You're the co-creator, right? This is your platform. Like what do you wanna create for your new people, right? And I think transaction.   It's always part of our industry and in the workforce, right? There is a transactional piece to working. ⁓ But again, that humanist, right? And so one great tip, I'll start with one tip and I'll turn it over to you, Tiff. ⁓ One great tip is have a welcome packet for your team, right? A t-shirt, their name tag, little, you know, if you picked up little sprinkles of who they are and what they like in the interview, like,   The Dental A Team (09:53) Mm.   Monica Gomez (10:04) put together a nice little welcome basket for them, a pen post-it, a nice little saying. I think that's, wow, I mean, that's super impactful on their first day, right? Like, welcome to the team and have everybody go around at Morning Huddle and just give a little shout out as, you know,   The Dental A Team (10:12) Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (10:31) how valuable it is to have a new team member. I think that's super simple and important.   The Dental A Team (10:37) Yeah, I love that. think you hit on something really important there. It's really that feeling of being welcomed, coming into a new space is, I mean, we don't even like going to a party unless we know, a dinner party, unless we know everybody who's gonna be there, right? We're like, I only know two people. Like, is that enough? Right? I got a text from a friend the other day that was, know, or not the other day, it's been a bit, but for, you know, Halloween. And then she's like, I gotta go to this thing with my husband. And like, I don't know anybody. And I was like, okay, like this is, we're all coming into this dinner party not knowing.   anybody else, even if you've done working interviews, you still don't know them. So I love that really just toning in on the personal piece and the relationship, because if you can have a relationship with them, you can, you know, build that camaraderie just from the get go. I think they actually retain information and onboard quicker as well. So I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (11:26) It's hard being an adult, you know? It's hard being an adult. And I think   in the practice, you know, just circling back to our topic on our previous podcast, fun is really important. We forget to have fun as adults, you know? And gosh, you know, think of it like you're in the sandbox again. See through young eyes, see through young eyes. Put those lenses on and just remember what it is to just play in the sandbox.   with your friends, right? And have like that pureness of intention and that pureness of heart and spirit. I think it's just easier when you can kind of connect to that space to welcome others in. And they'll say, I love that you're here. Welcome to the team. How can I make your week and your integration easier? I think that's a gem right there. That's...   The Dental A Team (11:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Monica Gomez (12:23) super valuable for the person receiving and also for the person that's delivering.   The Dental A Team (12:28) I agree. I was thinking,   as you said, you said it's hard being an adult And I thought, yeah, I remember just being like, do you want to swing? Like, there's two, like, do you want to swing with me? Like, that's, we don't do that anymore. Yeah. It was easy. Now it's like, we go to, we're in the same Pilates class 10 times and I'm still like, do I talk to you? Do I not talk to you? And it's like, goodness gracious. So yeah, like just, do you want to swing? Like just, let's just have fun with it. I love that. ⁓   Monica Gomez (12:34) Yeah.   It's easier to fix ones.   The Dental A Team (12:53) And so Welcome Packet is beautiful. if you guys like put it together, it could even be like ⁓ a welcome note card. Like, hey, excited to have you. Like everybody, we write thank you cards to our patients or we write condolence cards or happy birthday or happy anniversary. Like, congrats on your wedding. We write these cards and I've seen them in multiple practices. So I know a lot of people do them. You pass them around to all the team members or the happy birthday for the team members, right? Everybody writes on the card and it's like this little message.   You could do it as simply as that. Like, hey, Monica's starting on Monday, guys. Like, it's Thursday. Let's wrap this up. Let's get this like welcome card together and a candy bar or a little ⁓ bouquet of flowers, like four carnations. Like, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be robust or like over the top. Just speak to who you are and who they are. I love that. And Monica, something you said was we were kind of prepping for this was you don't have to have it all together. And I loved that because we've saw many podcasts on   Monica Gomez (13:33) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (13:49) operations manual and it's fantastic. And I agree with an operations manual and practices come to us and they're like, Monica, we need an operations manual, help us build it. It's like, okay, yes. And it's super cool. Also, it's not a requirement. You can onboard, you can train, you can have them help you build the operations manual while you're training. Don't hold yourself back from onboarding someone successfully.   Monica Gomez (14:01) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:17) because you feel like things are missing and I love that you said that. Now, on that same aspect, a job description, super simple, to put together a job description of who they are, how they show up and what their targets are per position and then build off of that to say like, hey, in the first week, two weeks, 30 days and then kind of go from there. Now, implementally, how do you build the action out for...   for teams like that, because I'm an aggriance. I love an operations manual. I think it's great, but it's not end all be all. And just because we get through an operations manual and your consulting journey does not mean you're done. You're set for success and nothing's ever going to happen. I think there's a lot of, we could go on a tangent about operations manuals. We won't today. But how do you do that with your practices you're working with?   Monica Gomez (15:06) Yeah, I mean, I think people ⁓ absorb information and they learn differently. And I think it's really important that we hit on all three things. It's auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. The operations manual or the training manual is valuable, Because it's a resource that you can go to to reference and get a refresher. ⁓ But that shouldn't be your onboarding technique, right? That's like, OK, here you go. Here's the written. ⁓   The Dental A Team (15:31) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (15:35) proof or reference book of what you already learned, right? It is the outcome of your training. ⁓ I think, you know, onboarding can be simple and we make it complicated because everything has to be in writing nowadays and there's value to that. ⁓ But really your team, the biggest piece of ⁓ an employee staying within those 90 days is how we onboarded them.   The Dental A Team (15:49) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (16:04) Did we just give them manual or written instructions and say, okay, here it is, go do it? Or did we say, okay, this week, part of your onboarding is that you're gonna spend time with every single person in this practice in the various roles, including the doctor. You're gonna sit in and listen to the exams and the x-ray take and the hygienist. And you're really gonna understand all the makings of this practice.   it's important that we understand everyone's role and how we contribute to the entire team. So I always recommend that you hire someone and the first three days, break it up. Three, by the way, is a magical number for me. I love everything in series of threes. So three is easy to remember, three things versus five or even four, right? So three days in each role.   And have that person that's learning write down the most impact. What did you learn in these three days sitting with a hygienist? Or what do you want to know more about? This will spark their curiosity. Don't give them a script. Allow them to of grasp the topics and let their curiosity ⁓ be the lead. Take the lead on.   Here's what I want to know more about, or I don't really understand this, or gosh, I didn't know that, right? ⁓ And that goes for experienced employees or people that are new to the industry, right? That's my recommendation. Allow them to spend three days in every single role, like the journey of onboarding, right? Like, I think it's super valuable. And then... ⁓   The Dental A Team (17:33) Yeah.   Fisher.   Monica Gomez (17:53) Again, they could be kind of co-creating your manual with you because what they bring back, the knowledge that they bring back, chances are somebody else is going to have that same curiosity or those same questions, right? Yeah, I think that's a really simple tip. And those also that feedback could be part of your 30, 60, 90 day growth plans. And here's what you're really great at, right? I always like to look at   The Dental A Team (18:05) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (18:23) Think about the growth plan like a sandwich, right? Like there's the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so here's where you are, right? ⁓ Here's where, ⁓ actually, here's your role. Here's where you currently are, and here's where we would like for you to be. And like, what are the steps to get there, right? That should be part of your growth plan, your 30, 60, 90 day growth plan, along with the job description. Yeah, I think, you know,   using the job description like you mentioned as a tool, right, to guide people and also for us to understand like, what are they really great at? What are they really proud of, you know, in this job role? And what do they want to know more about? I think ⁓ I ⁓ one great way to kind of get familiar with someone's knowledge, experience and their desire to grow or learn more about is take the   The Dental A Team (19:04) Thank   Monica Gomez (19:21) the skills and ability portion of the job role and say, tell me three things that you're really great at, that you're really proud of, that you just are an expert in. And then three things that ⁓ you wanna know more about, not weak, right? Things that you don't, let's take that, negative verb out of it, just say three things that you're curious about or three things that you wanna sharpen your skills at. That tells you a lot about their qualifications. ⁓ And I'm really an advocate of ⁓   The Dental A Team (19:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yes.   Monica Gomez (19:51) eliminating the over-educating and over-matching. This exercise is a great way to kind of level set who your person is, like what's in their brain, right? Like, are you curious about? So I think that's part of like the co-creation of the onboarding and the collaboration, right? This is a partnership, we're in this together. What can I do to help you help me?   The Dental A Team (20:02) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (20:16) and stay. think it's intentional and it is ⁓ structured in a way that's unstructured.   The Dental A Team (20:29) Yeah, for sure. And I think that what you're saying there that co-creation also makes me think of ⁓ like collaborating and co-creating with the people who are going to be doing the training. So if you're not the one who's going to be, if you're an office manager and you're not training this person hands on 100 % of the time, then enlist the team members too. So if this person's job is   I don't know, front desk check-in and she or he has this laundry list of 20 different things that they've got to learn in the series of these 90 days or 30 days or however long you parcel that out for who's helping with those things and allow them to co-create too. And I think what you're saying, the three days, it's like, great, you're learning to answer the phones and confirm appointments. That's what you're doing for three days. You're answering the phone. So you're answering the phones and you're delivering that   patient to whomever, right? You're transferring that patient to whomever they need and you're doing confirmation calls for three days. And then stack on top of that, anything, something you said there, the co-collaborating and the kind of doing it together, but also then enlisting outside perspectives to see what flows together. Because a lot of times our job doesn't necessarily start to end flow in this perfect, beautiful space. Sometimes it's like,   well, I'm doing phones, but I'm doing emails, and I'm doing phones, but I'm checking patients out. And those are very like stark contrasting pieces. And so if we're like jumping them around or trying to do it in what a day might look like, that's very confusing. And it's overwhelming because your brain doesn't operate in that way. You can and you will and you will multitask and they will get it. But when you're learning, you've got to learn succinctly in a flow that makes sense. So you can't start with   Monica Gomez (22:03) and overwhelming.   The Dental A Team (22:18) checking a patient out if you also want them to be doing confirmation calls. Like you've got to find, like you said, your start, your middle and your end and making sure that those pieces flow together and having that outside perspective I think can definitely help. Something you mentioned was those like check-ins. So you're having those conversations with them. So that in itself right there, you guys, if you're not, I want you to pull these action items out too because that in itself, that's an action item. So make sure you've got job descriptions.   make sure you've got some semblance of flow on the pieces that they're responsible for, and then you're checking in with them. And I think frequent check-ins are really smart. We do them in our company with onboarding and we continue them kind of as long as we possibly can forevermore. We do these check-ins because I wanna know where they're at. don't, not necessarily like, did you do this thing? I wanna know like Monica, where are you at today? ⁓   Personally, who are you and where are you at today? Like are we still in alignment because that's the space I think Especially being new to a team. I'm not gonna say I'm not always gonna say hey, I Didn't get this or hey, I need help or hey I'm falling behind or I feel overwhelmed or this is a lot because I don't want to look like I can't do it But if my manager or my lead is like, hey check in how are things going? And I'm like, I think I'm getting it. I think I need more time on this   That's way better than being like, I'm overwhelmed. Like that feels better to me to be like, cool, there's space to have a conversation about this. I'm not complaining or feeling weak or looking as though I can't accomplish something. You are giving the space as a check-in to just be like, hey, tell me where you're at. Okay, great, take the space, take the time, go learn it. Or if I need to show you again, I can.   Monica Gomez (24:08) Yeah, I love that. I love everything that you said. think, ⁓ you know, words create our story, right? And so if we're asking, like, how's it going? ⁓ Are you struggling with anything? ⁓ Our minds automatically go to that negative place, right? So you get to be the creator of the script.   Right. And so if we're saying, Hey, by the way, I heard you answering the phone start, like, listen for the good stuff, right? The good behaviors. Gosh, you were amazing. Greeting that patient. my gosh. I am so proud of you. You are totally getting this and you know, how's everything else going? Right. If you start with that excitement and something positive, that person's already in that positive mindset and it's all about mindset. Right. And if we're concerned that they're not getting it, they're not going to get it.   assume that they are, assume that they are getting it. So gosh, you are, I know you're doing amazing. Tell me all the good stuff. Start.   The Dental A Team (25:10) Yeah, assume good intent, right? Always. We see that constantly. Assume   good intent. I think, Monica, you saying this right here makes me think.   Relationships are relationships, I say that all the time. They just look a little bit different. Like my relationship with Erin is a little bit different than my relationship with you, but my communication skills are gonna be super, they're gonna be the same with the right words, right? So I'm not gonna, communication is communication. And so what we do is we say, okay, this is how you sell a treatment plan. This is how you project to your patients to get them to schedule. And you always start with a positive. You don't ask for a review by saying,   how did everything go today? You say like, oh my gosh, that seemed, you how amazing was your appointment today? Like you're infusing these words in there to get the mindset, but then we don't copy and paste that always into everything that we do. And I think how you show up for anything is how you show up for everything. So show up for your team the same as you're expecting your team to show up for your patients because that's going to translate. And if you're like, oh, it seemed like a,   Gosh, today was a chaotic day, how did you do? It's always chaos, we're in dentistry. Dentistry is chaotic, your days are gonna be crazy. Life is chaotic, you're right, it's always going to be crazy. So saying that, gosh, was, woo, that was a rough day. How are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I'm feeling like I made a really bad decision coming here. I think you're spot on is my point there. So that was beautiful, thank you.   Monica Gomez (26:22) Yeah. And life is chaotic. Period, right? Life is chaotic.   Yeah. And, you know, I when employees share difficult, like a difficult day, you know, like, ⁓ I had a ⁓ client last week share that their new hire said, ⁓ gosh, maybe we shouldn't, you know, ⁓ schedule two crowns back to back because that was really hard. And, you know, my back was hurting. And so, ⁓ you know, the doctor was like, she's already complaining. I'm like, well, okay. Well, how did you respond? Right. Because   The Dental A Team (27:13) Yeah, yeah.   Monica Gomez (27:14) Because, I mean, she's delivering something that's important. She's sharing and she feels comfortable enough to say, hey, that was really hard. That's really what she's saying. That was really hard, right? And so, you know, again, one of my favorite sayings is, you know, get curious, not furious, right? Don't look at it with the negative lens. It's a great way for you to validate, like, how important it is to be seen, and valued, right?   The Dental A Team (27:43) I agree.   Monica Gomez (27:43) And she was opening up because she wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. Like she wanted to be seen. Gosh, I like did those two crowns back to back. My back is hurting me. Are you even valuing that I sat there in fact, right? Even though they could have swapped off with another assistant, but she, you know, she followed him. And so, you know, and my advice was like, you should number one acknowledge that she's sharing, right?   The Dental A Team (27:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (28:12) Thank you so much for sharing that. You're right, that was kind of hard. Let's talk about it as a team tomorrow. Let's find ways to alleviate that when this does happen, right? I mean, the patients wanted to start, like they're ready. Let's do it, right? But where were your other team members? Like, let's talk about this. And so seen, and valued. If you can make anyone new, ⁓ a new employee, an existing employee,   your legacy employees, if you can make them feel and create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, that's huge. That's like you, you will, your team will love you, your patients will love you because again, it's that invisible kind of energy that's flowing through your practice, right? That creates that great space for employees to wanna stay.   The Dental A Team (29:03) I agree. I totally agree. Thank you, Monica. I think this was ⁓ a really, this is just full of so many gems and ⁓ I love the actual pieces of job description, kind of the, I love your three days, spend three days on it and really just making sure you go through that job description. Look at the to-dos of that position.   Enlist the team to help you. Whoever's gonna be helping to train. I had people specific on my team that were like, these are the things you just, you're stellar at and it's gonna be easy for you to train these things. They trained those. So it doesn't have to be one person. It can be whatever you want it to look like. Just make sure it's built out. You have a plan. Preschedule check-ins. I always make sure we preschedule check-ins and you guys check in with yourself too. think Monica, you gave some really wonderful tips on really making sure that we're showing up the way that we should be.   or the way we want people to show up and really just gut checking and making sure that those things are there. And I loved this. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Thank you for flowing off of it. This was perfect. This was divine. Thank you for helping set up this flow of podcasting today and for just bringing your insight and your wisdom and your years of experience of things that you've seen work and ideas. So thank you, Monica.   Monica Gomez (30:17) Thanks, thanks, Tiff. This is definitely a gem for me. I have so much to share and so much, I love sharing, I love brainstorming, I love sharing what works ⁓ and all the knowledge that we, all of us have, right? This is a beautiful space for us to, you know, share that. And this was so fun. Thanks for inviting me and everyone.   The Dental A Team (30:24) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (30:44) Go out and be fabulous and don't forget to have fun. Have fun.   The Dental A Team (30:48) Yes, I love that.   Thank you. Yes. Go be fabulous. That is like Trish's famous words. I love that she says that. always, I know it always makes it just like, yep, I will. Okay. No, questions. So I love it. Go be fabulous. I agree. Drop us a five star review. Let us know what you thought about this. Let us know what onboarding tips you guys have. is an easy place to find us and.   Monica Gomez (30:55) So these are the things.   The Dental A Team (31:12) get recommendations or share your tips and tricks. We really do love that. And also we're on Instagram and Facebook, all of those places. So watch us there. Watch out for us there. Thursdays, once a third Thursday, we have webinars. You guys, we're everywhere. So if you're only following the podcast, check us out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, TheDentalATeam.com. We've got all of it listed there as well. Go find us, follow us and listen for more amazing tips from Monica and the rest of the consulting team. Thank you guys and go be fabulous.   Monica Gomez (31:40) you  

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Shireen Rizvi, PhD and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD, about their book Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. We discuss what Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is, how it can help both ourselves and our kids with big feelings, and get into some of the skills it teaches including distress tolerance, check the facts, and mindfulness.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:00 What is DBT?* 11:00 The importance of validation* 13:00 How do parents manage their own big feelings?* 16:00 How do you support a kid with big feelings, and where is the place for problem solving?* 23:00 Managing the urge to fix things for our kids!* 26:00 What is distress tolerance?* 28:50 “Check the facts” is a foundational skill* 34:00 Mindfulness is a foundation of DBT* 36:45 How the skills taught through DBT are universalResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships by Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein * Shireen Rizvi's website * Jesse Finkelstein's websites axiscbt and therahive Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREPodcast transcript:Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today we have two guests who co-authored a book called Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships.And you may be wondering why we're talking about that on a parenting podcast. This was a really great conversation with Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein, the co-authors of the book, about all of the skills of DBT, which is a modality of therapy. We talked about the skills they teach in DBT and how we can apply them to parenting.They talk about how emotional dysregulation is the cause of so much of the pain and suffering in our lives. And I think as a parent, you will recognize that either your own emotional dysregulation or your child's is often where a lot of issues and conflict come from.So what they've really provided in this book—and given us a window into in this conversation—is how we can apply some of those skills toward helping ourselves and helping our children with big feelings, a.k.a. emotional dysregulation. It was a really wonderful conversation, and their book is wonderful too. We'll put a link to it in the show notes and encourage you to check it out.There are things you can listen to in this podcast today and then walk away and use right away. One note: you'll notice that a lot of what they talk about really overlaps with the things we teach and practice inside of Peaceful Parenting.If this episode is helpful for you, please share it with a friend. Screenshot it and send it to someone who could use some more skill-building around big emotions—whether they're our own big emotions or our child's. Sharing with a friend or word of mouth is a wonderful way for us to reach more people and more families and help them learn about peaceful parenting.It is a slow process, but I really believe it is the way we change the world. Let's meet Shireen and Jesse.Hi, Jesse. Hi, Shireen. Welcome to the podcast.Jesse: Thank you so much for having us.Sarah: Yeah. I'm so excited about your book, which I understand is out now—Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. First of all, I love the format of your book. It's super easy to read and easy to use. I already thought about tearing out the pages with the flow charts, which are such great references—really helpful for anyone who has emotions. Basically anyone who has feelings.Jesse: Oh, yes.Sarah: Yeah. I thought they were great, and I think this is going to be a helpful conversation for parents. You've written from a DBT framework. Can you explain what DBT is and maybe how it's different from CBT? A lot of people have heard more about cognitive behavior therapy than dialectical behavior therapy.Shireen: Sure. I would first say that DBT—Dialectical Behavior Therapy—is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy. So they're in the same category. Sometimes we hear therapists say, “I do DBT, but I don't do CBT,” and from my perspective, that's not really possible, because the essence of dialectical behavior therapy is CBT. CBT focuses on how our thoughts, behaviors, and emotions all go together, and how changing any one of those affects the others.That's really the core of DBT—the foundation of CBT. But what happened was the person who developed DBT, Marsha Linehan—she was actually my grad school advisor at the University of Washington—developed this treatment because she was finding that standard CBT was not working as well as she wanted it to for a particular population. The group she was working with were women, primarily, who had significant problems with emotion regulation and were chronically suicidal or self-injuring.With that group, she found they needed a lot more validation—validation that things were really rough, that it was hard to change what was going on, that they needed support and comfort. But if she leaned too much on validation, patients got frustrated that there wasn't enough change happening.So what she added to standard CBT was first a focus on validation and acceptance, and then what she refers to as the dialectical piece: balancing between change and acceptance. The idea is: You're doing the best you can—and you need to do better.Jesse: Mm-hmm.Shireen: And even though DBT was developed for that very severe group that needed a lot of treatment, one of the aspects of DBT is skills training—teaching people skills to manage their emotions, regulate distress, engage interpersonally in a more effective way.Those skills became so popular that people started using them with everyone they were treating, not just people who engaged in chronic suicidal behavior.Sarah: Very cool. And I think the population you're referring to is people who might be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. I bring that up only because I work with parents, not kids, and parents report to me what their children are like. I've had many parents worry, “Do you think my child has borderline personality disorder?” because they've heard of it and associate it with extreme sensitivity and big feelings.A lot of that is just typical of someone who's 13 or 14, right? Or of a sensitive child—not diagnosable or something you'd necessarily find in the DSM. I've heard it so many times. I say, “No, I don't think your child has borderline personality disorder. I think they're just really sensitive and haven't learned how to manage their big feelings yet. And that's something you can help them with.”With that similar level of emotional intensity—in a preteen or early teen who's still developing the brain structures that make self-regulation possible—how can we use DBT skills? What are a couple of ideas you might recommend when you have a 13-year-old who feels like life is ruined because the jeans they wanted to wear are soaking wet in the wash? And I'm not making fun—at 13, belonging is tied to how you look, what jeans you're wearing, how your hair is. It feels very real.So how might we use the skills you write about for that kind of situation?Jesse: Well, Sarah, I actually think you just practiced one of the skills: validation. When someone feels like their day is ruined because of their jeans, often a parent will say, “Get over it. It's not a big deal.” And now, in addition to fear or anxiety, there's a layer of shame or resentment. So the emotion amplifies and becomes even harder to get out of.Validation is a skill we talk about where you recognize the kernel of truth—how this experience makes sense. “The jeans you're wearing are clearly important to you. This is about connection. I understand why you feel this way.” That simple act of communicating that someone's thoughts and feelings make sense can be very powerful.Alongside that—back to what Shireen was saying—there are two tracks. One is the skills you help your teen practice. The other is the skills you practice yourself to be effective. In that moment, your teen might be dysregulated. What is the parent's emotion? Their urge? What skills can they practice to be effective?Sarah: I love that you already went to the next question I was going to ask, which is: when that kid is screaming, “You don't understand, I can't go to school because of the jeans,” what can parents do for themselves using the skills you describe?Shireen: I often think of the oxygen-mask analogy: put on your own oxygen mask before helping others. That was certainly true for me when I had fussy infants—how do you manage that stress when you are already heightened?What do you need to do to regulate yourself so you can be effective in the moment? Sometimes that's literally taking a time-out—leaving the room for a minute. The kid comes after you about the jeans, and you say, “Hold on, I need a minute.” You sequester yourself in the bathroom. You do paced breathing—a DBT skill that helps regulate your nervous system. You do that for a minute, get centered, and then return to the situation.If you're not regulated and your child is dysregulated, you'll ping-pong off each other and it becomes messier and messier. But if you can regulate yourself and approach calmly, the whole interaction changes.Sarah: It's so interesting because people who've been listening to my podcast or know my work will think, “Oh yeah, these are the things Sarah talks about all the time.” Our first principle of peaceful parenting is parental self-regulation. It doesn't mean you never get upset, but you recognize it and have strategies to get back to calm.And I always say, if you forget everything else I teach about dealing with upset kids, just remember empathy—which is another way of saying validation. I tell parents: you don't have to agree to empathize. Especially with situations like the jeans.I love the crossover between the skills parents are practicing in my community and what you've written about. And again: those flow charts! I'm going to mark up my book with Post-its for all the exercises.One of the things you talk about in the book is problem solving. As parents, we can find ourselves in these intense situations. I'll give an example: a client's daughter, at 11 p.m., was spiraling about needing a particular pair of boots for her Halloween costume, and they wouldn't arrive in time. No matter what the mom said, the daughter spiraled.This is a two-part question: If you've validated and they're still really upset, how do you support a kid who is deep in those intense feelings? And when is the place for teaching problem solving—especially when there is a real logistical problem to solve?Jesse: I'm going to say the annoying therapist thing: it depends. If we think about how emotions impact our thinking on a scale from 0 to 10, it's very hard to engage in wise-minded problem solving when someone is at an 8, 9, or 10. At that point, the urge is to act on crisis behaviors—yell, fight, ruminate.So engaging your child in problem solving when they're at a 9 isn't effective.Often, I suggest parents model and coach distress-tolerance skills. Shireen mentioned paced breathing. Maybe distraction. Anything to lower the emotional volume.Once we're in the six-ish range? Now we can problem solve. DBT has a very prescribed step-by-step process.But it's really hard if someone is so dysregulated. That's often where parents and kids end up in conflict: parent wants to solve; kid is at a 9 and can't even see straight.Sarah: Right. So walk us through what that might look like using the boots example. Play the parent for a moment.Jesse: Of course. I'd potentially do a couple of things. I might say, “Okay, let's do a little ‘tipping the temperature' together.” I'd bring out two bowls of ice and say, “We'll bend over, hold our breath for 30 seconds…”Shireen: And put your face in the bowl of ice water. You left out that part.Jesse: Crucial part of the step.Sarah: You just look at the ice water?Jesse: No, you submerge your face. And something happens—it's magical. There's actually a profound physiological effect: lowering blood pressure, calming the sympathetic nervous system.I highlight for parents: do this with your child, not didactically. Make it collaborative.And then: validate, validate, validate. Validation is not approval. It's not saying the reaction is right. It's simply communicating that their distress makes sense. Validation is incredibly regulating.Then you check in: “Do you feel like we can access Wise Mind?” If yes: “Great. Let's bring out a problem-solving worksheet—maybe from Real Skills for Real Life or the DBT manual. Let's walk through it step by step.”Sarah: And if you have a kid screaming, “Get that ice water away from me, that has nothing to do with the boots!”—is there anything to add beyond taking a break?Shireen: I'd say this probably comes up a lot for you, Sarah. As parents—especially high-functioning, maybe perfectionistic types (I put myself in that category)—if my kid is upset, I feel so many urges to fix it right away. Sometimes that's helpful, but often it's not. They either don't want to be fixed, or they're too dysregulated, or fixing isn't actually their goal—they just want to tell you how upset they are.I have to practice acceptance: “My kid is upset right now. That's it.” I remind myself: kids being upset is part of life. It's important for them to learn they can be upset and the world doesn't fall apart.If they're willing to do skills alongside you, great. But there will be times where you say, “I accept that you're upset. I'm sorry you feel this way. It sounds terrible. Let's reconnect in an hour.” And wait for the storm to pass.Sarah: Wait for the storm to pass.Jesse: I'll say—I haven't been a therapist that long, and I've been having this conversation with my own parents. Yesterday I called my mom about something stressful, and she said, “Jesse, do you want validation or problem solving right now?”Shireen: Love it.Jesse: I thought, “You taught her well.” I was like: okay, therapy works. And even having that prompt—“What would you like right now? Problem solving? Validation? Do you want me to just sit with you?”—that's so useful.Sarah: Yeah. I have to remind myself of that with my daughter, especially when the solution seems obvious to me but she's too upset to take it in. Just sitting there is the hardest thing in the world.And you've both anticipated my next question. A big part of your book is distress tolerance—one of the four areas. Can you talk about what distress tolerance is specifically? And as you mentioned, Shireen, it is excruciating when your kid is in pain or upset.I learned from my friend Ned Johnson—his wonderful book The Self-Driven Child—that there's something called the “righting instinct.” When your child falls over, you have the instinct to right them—pick them up, dust them off, stand them up. That instinct kicks in whenever they're distressed. And I think it's important for them to learn skills so we don't do that every time.Give us some thoughts about that.Shireen: Well, again, I think distress tolerance is so important for parents and for kids. The way we define it in DBT is: distress tolerance is learning how to tolerate stressful, difficult, complicated situations without doing anything to make it worse. That's the critical part, because distress tolerance is not about solving problems. It's about getting through without making things worse.So in the context of an interaction with your kid, “not making it worse” might mean biting your tongue and not lashing out, not arguing, not rolling your eyes, or whatever it is. And then tolerating the stress of the moment.As parents, we absolutely need this probably a thousand times a day. “How do I tolerate the distress of this moment with my kid?” And then kids, as humans, need to learn distress tolerance too—how to tolerate a difficult situation without doing anything to make it worse.If we swoop in too quickly to solve the problem for them—as you said, if we move in too quickly to right them—they don't learn that they can get through it themselves. They don't learn that they can right themselves.And I think there's been a lot written about generations and how parenting has affected different generations. We want our kids to learn how to problem solve, but also how to manage stress and difficulty in effective ways.Sarah: I think you're probably referring to the “helicopter parents,” how people are always talking about helicopter parents who are trying to remove any obstacles or remove the distress, basically.I think the answer isn't that we just say, “Okay, well, you're distressed, deal with it,” but that we're there with them emotionally while they're learning. We're next to them, right? With that co-regulation piece, while they're learning that they can handle those big feelings.Shireen: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: I thought it might be fun, before we close out, to do a deep dive on maybe one or two of the skills you have in the book. I was thinking about maybe “Check the Facts.” It would be a cool one to do a deep dive on. You have so many awesome skills and I encourage anyone to pick up your book. “Check the Facts” is one of the emotion regulation skills.Do you mind going over when you would use Check the Facts, what it is, and how to use it?Jesse: Not at all. Check the Facts is, in many ways, a foundational skill, because it's so easy for us to get lost in our interpretation of a situation. So the classic example is: you're walking down the street and you wave to a friend, and they don't wave back. And I don't know about you, but it's easy for me to go to, “Oh, they must be mad at me.”Sarah: Right, yeah.Jesse: And all of a sudden, I'm spinning out, thinking about all the things I could have done to hurt their feelings, and yada yada yada. Then I'm feeling lots of upset, and I may have the urge to apologize, etc.What we're doing with Check the Facts is returning our attention back to the facts themselves—the things we can take in with our senses. We're observing and describing, which are two foundational mindfulness skills in DBT. And then from that, we ask ourselves: “Does the emotion I'm feeling—the intensity and duration of that emotion—fit the facts as I'm experiencing them?”So in many ways, this is one of those cognitive interventions. DBT rests on all these cognitive-behavioral principles; it's part of that broader umbrella. Here we're asking: “Do the facts as I see them align with my emotional experience?”From there, we ask: if yes, then there are certain options or skills we can practice—for instance, we can change the problem. If no, that begs the question: “Should I act opposite to this emotion urge that I have?”So it's a very grounding, centering type of skill. Shireen, is there anything I'm missing?Shireen: No. I would just give a parenting example that happens for me a lot. My kid has a test the next day. He says he knows everything. He doesn't open the book or want to review the study guide. And I start to think things like, “Oh my gosh, he has no grit. He's going to fail this test. He's not going to do well in high school. He's not going to get into a good college. But most importantly, he doesn't care. And what does that say about him? And what does it say about me as a parent?”I hope people listening can relate to these sorts of thoughts and I'm not alone.Sarah: A hundred percent. I've heard people say those exact things.Shireen: And even though I practice these skills all the time, I'm also human and a mother. So where Check the Facts can be useful there is first just recognizing: “Okay, what thoughts am I having in response to this behavior?” The facts of the situation are: my kid said he doesn't need to study anymore. And then look at all these thoughts that came into my mind.First, just recognizing: here was the event, and here's what my mind did. That, in and of itself, is a useful experience. You can say, “Wow, look at what I'm doing in my mind that's creating so much of a problem.”Then I can also think: “What does this make me feel when I have all these thoughts?” I feel fear. I feel sad. I feel shame about not being a good parent. And those all cause me to have more thoughts and urges to do things that aren't super effective—like trying to bully him into studying, all of these things.Then the skill can be: “Okay, are these thoughts exaggerated? Are they based in fact? Are they useful?” I can analyze each of these thoughts.I might think, “Well, he has a history of not studying and doing fine,” is one thing. Another thought: “Me trying to push him to study is not going to be effective or helpful.” Another: “There are natural consequences. If he doesn't do well because he didn't study, that's an important lesson for him to learn.”So I can start to change my interpretations based on the facts of the actual situation as opposed to my exaggerated interpretations. And then see: what does that do to my emotions? And when I have more realistic, fact-based thoughts, does that lead me to have a better response than I would if I followed through on all my exaggerated thinking?Does that make sense?Sarah: Yeah, totally makes sense. Are there any DBT skills that are helpful in helping you recognize when you need to use a skill—if that makes sense? Because sometimes I think parents might spiral, like in the example you're talking about, but they might not even realize they're spiraling. Sometimes parents will say, “I don't even know until it's too late that I've had this big moment of emotional dysregulation.”Jesse: I think there's a very strong reason why mindfulness is the foundation of DBT—for exactly the reason you've just described. For a lot of us, we end up engaging in behaviors that are ineffective, that are not in line with our values or goals, and it feels like it's just happening to us.So having a mindfulness practice—and I want to highlight that doesn't necessarily mean a formal meditation practice—but developing the skill of noticing, of being increasingly conscious of what you're feeling, your urges, your thoughts, your behaviors. So that when you notice that you are drifting, that you're engaging in an ineffective behavior, you can then apply a skill. We can't change what we're not aware of.Sarah: I love that. It's so hard with all the distractions we have and all of the things that are pulling us this way and that, and the busyness. So just slowing down and starting to notice more what we're feeling and thinking.Shireen: There's a skill that we teach that's in the category of mindfulness called Wise Mind. I don't have to get into all the particulars of that, but Wise Mind is when you're in a place where you feel wise and centered and perhaps a little bit calmer.So one question people can ask themselves is: “Am I in a place of Wise Mind right now?” And if not, that's the cue. Usually, when we answer that we're not, it's because we're in a state of Emotion Mind, where our emotions are in control of us.First, recognizing what state of mind you're in can be really helpful. You can use that as a cue: “I'm not in Wise Mind. I need to do something more skillful here to get there,” or, “I need to give myself some time before I act.”Sarah: I love that. So helpful. Before we wrap up, was there anything you wish I'd asked you that you think would be really helpful for parents and kids?Shireen: I just want to reiterate something you said earlier, which is: yes, this treatment was developed for folks with borderline personality disorder. That is often a diagnosis people run screaming from or are very nervous about. People might hesitate to think that these skills could be useful for them if they don't identify as having borderline personality disorder.But I think what you're highlighting, Sarah—and we so appreciate you having us on and talking about these skills—is that we consider these skills universal. Really anybody can benefit.I've done training and teaching in DBT for 25 years, and I teach clinicians in many different places how to do DBT treatment with patients. But inevitably, what happens is that the clinicians themselves say, “Oh, I really need these skills in my everyday life.”So that's what we want to highlight, and why we wrote this book: to take these skills from a treatment designed for a really severe population and break it down so anybody can see, “Oh, this would be useful for me in my everyday life, and I want to learn more.”Sarah: Totally. Yeah. I love it. And I think it's a continuum, right? From feeling like emotions are overwhelming and challenging, and being really emotionally sensitive. There are lots of people who are on that more emotionally sensitive side of things, and these are really helpful skills for them.Jesse: Yeah. And to add on that, I wouldn't want anyone—and I don't think any of us here are suggesting this—it's such a stigmatized diagnosis. I have yet to meet someone who's choosing suffering. Many of us are trying to find relief from a lot of pain, and we may do so through really ineffective means.So with BPD, in my mind, sometimes it's an unfortunate name for a diagnosis. Many folks may have the opinion that it means they're intrinsically broken, or there's something wrong with their personality. Really, it's a constellation of behaviors that there are treatments for.So I want anyone listening not to feel helpless or hopeless in having this diagnosis or experience.Shireen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Sarah: Thank you so much. The question I ask all my guests—I'll ask Shireen first and then Jesse—is: if you could go back in time, if you had a time machine, if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Shireen: Oof. I think about this a lot, actually, because I feel like I did suffer a lot when my kids were babies. They were super colicky. I didn't sleep at all. I was also trying to work. I was very stressed. I wish that at that time I could have taken in what other people were telling me, which is: “This will pass.” Right? “This too shall pass,” which is something we say to ourselves as DBT therapists a lot. Time changes. Change is inevitable. Everything changes.In those dark parenting moments, you get stuck in thoughts of, “This is never going to change. It's always going to be this way. I can't tolerate this.” Instead, shifting to recognize: “Change is going to happen whether I like it or not. Just hang in there.”Sarah: I love that. My mother-in-law told me when I had my first child: “When things are bad, don't worry, they'll get better. And also, when things are good, don't worry, they'll get worse.”Shireen: Yes, it's true. And we need both the ups and the downs so we can actually understand, “Oh, this is why I like this, and this is why I don't like this.” It's part of life.Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. And Jesse, if you do ever have children, what would you want to remember to tell yourself?Jesse: I think I would want to remember to tell myself—and I don't think I'm going to say anything really new here—that perfection is a myth. I think parents often feel like they need to be some kind of superhuman. But we all feel. And when we do feel, and when we feel strongly, the goal isn't to shame ourselves for having that experience. It's to simply understand it.That's what I would want to communicate to myself, and what I hope to communicate to the parents I work with.Sarah: Love that. Best place to go to find out more about you all and what you do? We'll put a link to your book in the show notes, but any other socials or websites you want to point people to?Shireen: My website is shireenrizvi.com, where you can find a number of resources, including a link to the book and a link to our YouTube channel, which has skills videos—animated skills videos that teach some of these skills in five minutes or less. So that's another resource for people.Sarah: Great. What about you, Jesse?Jesse: I have a website called axiscbt.com. I'm also a co-founder of a psychoeducation skills course called Farrah Hive, and we actually have a parenting course based on DBT skills—that's thefarrahhive.com. And on Instagram, @talk_is_good.Sarah: Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.Jesse: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: Thank you. This is a public episode. 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