Podcasts about MM

Did you know: Each position in your practice should contribute toward the practice's goals? Tiff and Kristy break down why each position should have a vision and specific metrics (starting at the job description), and how together, alongside all the other positions, they work toward the greater good of the practice. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am so excited to be here today. I am always excited to be here today you guys I love podcasting I really really do and I love podcasting with other people more than solo and I get to pull consultants in and Britt from HR Headquarters over there HQ and Eve from marketing like I get to pull in just the most fun people from our team to Just double up and get some time with Kristy   I've got you today and this is like our special time together and I just love it. So, and Kristy, I put you specifically at the end of my podcasting day. I hope you noticed that not just because of timing, but because you bring a sense of calm to my life and podcasting with you, not to say that it's not easy with anyone else on our team, but you really like, it's just so easy. You bring a sense of calm and ease. And I was like, that's what I want to end my day with. So thank you for.   opening up your schedule to me and for being here today, Kristy, how are you?   DAT Kristy (00:59) Good, absolutely. I love it too. I mean, we were just talking the other day because we don't get much time together and so I know we look forward to this time. now that I know you put me at the end of the day on purpose, I love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's a good way to end the day.   The Dental A Team (01:13) Surprise!   Good. Well, I'm glad. know Mondays are busy for you. Our team does, we do meeting Mondays and so it gets a little jam packed, but it's nice because we get it. I feel like we get all of that admin stuff out of the way and we get aligned on actions we need to take for the week kind of all together on the same day. And then we just spearhead our week ready to go. Well, Kristy, ⁓ today is exciting. I   I'm gonna actually pull in what we were just talking about. you guys, you guys know, avid listeners, you guys have been here. We've been doing this podcast for a really long time, you guys, and if you have ideas on things that you want to hear, please send them in because our little brains over here are just thinking of all of these things. Sometimes they feel like, did we just record this? It's like this content sounds so similar to something else we've talked about. And so I don't know how to label this one.   But I want you guys to know we are going to chat today a little bit about job descriptions. And this is something that we find incredibly important. So we talk about it a lot. So I want to drive that home. They are so important. And Kristy, something that I recently recorded a podcast with Brittany. And something we talked about, part of that leadership skill, was being able to give direction to the team to execute decisions.   as a leader, being able to execute decisions, being decisive and having execution as leadership, but also gifting that to the team. And we talked about the vision of the practice, kind of where the company's going and the leader, the owner, being able to utilize that for the culture of the company. But I kind of think right now, these job descriptions are the vision per position.   It gives us our heading so that within my position in the practice or the organization, I can say yes, no, maybe, yes, this is the right decision right now for the company. And it brings about some clarity for everyone. Kristy, you, what do you think?   DAT Kristy (03:28) Yeah, I love that you mentioned that because for so long, think we've all understood that job descriptions should have duties, right? I truly am a fan of duties versus titles, but also I think honing in on the other aspect of, think the duties, let me step back. The duties tell us what we're responsible for, but I think bringing in the other aspect   tells us how the person should behave. And so I think they go hand in hand. And I think oftentimes we miss that other piece of it and then we get frustrated when we don't hire that person.   The Dental A Team (04:11) Yeah, I agree.   in ⁓ a layer on top of that, you mentioned job duties and kind of how to behave. But even within that ⁓ what piece, the job duties, the clarification on the job duties, if I know that my job, my goal of my position is to have the schedule full, maybe I'm a schedule coordinator, and my number one metric is 90 % full on hygiene for the next five days,   80 % full doctor, like whatever that metric is. If I know that's my metric, then I think, my gosh, this one patient, my how-to says confirmations. And step one is text message, email, text message, email, but I know this person is 85 years old and they're not getting these text messages. I don't have to question, do I call this patient? My job, my goal is to get that patient here for that appointment, no matter what that means looks like.   So I think that vision and that ⁓ very clear cut, this is what the metric is of your position. I sitting in that scheduling coordinator position can say, Julie, at 85, I'm just gonna call her. I'm not gonna mess with the text messages and wait until three days before if I know she needs a call and we need to confirm her right. Like I have this information, but we often get asked, Kristy, I think.   by different team members that they're like, well, can I do this? I'm like, well, does it get you to your goal? Is it a part of what gets the practice to our goals? Heck yeah, I think that's a great idea. It gives you the space to be creative, to get to the results that you need to get to, that are set as parameters because you know what you're driving towards.   DAT Kristy (05:58) Yeah, you said that so well. So again, I'm with you. It's not just the duties and how we behave and perform them. But like you said, then we can tie it to what metrics am I responsible for? And one other piece behind that is painting the clarity. If it's 90 % reappointment rate or, you know, whatever metric I am responsible for. Now, what system   comes behind that metric if it's not where I want it to be, right? So then I can pull up the system and say, hey, am I not working the system properly or do I need to find a new system because our system's not working any longer to get the result we want?   The Dental A Team (06:45) for sure and that's where teams come to us, or office managers, and they're like, my team has no accountability, how do I hold them accountable? Or how do I get my team to hold themselves accountable? How do I get them to own their jobs? It's really hard to own something if you don't have complete clarity around that goal that you're working towards. And so having those smart goals with those metrics tied to them, Kristy, like you just said, allows that person then, like you've said, to work backwards from the result to see   What did I do that got the result? Because anything you do, I literally just said it this morning, I say it all the time, even consistently being inconsistent is going to get you a result. Consistently doing anything will get you the result. And if your consistency lies in inconsistently, I'm always inconsistent, you're going to get a result. So knowing what your target result is in comparison to the result that you got allows you to backtrack and say,   DAT Kristy (07:25) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (07:41) Was I inconsistent in my utilization of my systems? Or is the system just flawed and I need to reinvent that wheel? Totally fine too, but it allows the space for that. And Kristy, the way you said it was it allows the person holding that metric to see it themselves and can to it, which takes training and it takes consistency from leadership to constantly point back to the metrics, to constantly be like, okay, ⁓ what   what is your metric, your standard, and then what did you reach? And when there's questions that come up like, Kristy, like, do I call this lady? You're like, well, what is your metric? Does it get you there? And I think that consistency is that accountability piece that people are lacking.   DAT Kristy (08:27) Yeah, I agree with you. ⁓ Just like you said, it's very easy once we've painted that clarity and we have understanding also for the team to report back to you. You shouldn't have to ask. But I also would say don't just report back. Report back and let them know your trend because maybe it is 90 % reappointment rate that we're looking at. ⁓ Literally, I was just on with an office that was   It's almost embarrassing to say they haven't looked at their rates for reappointment. She's like 50 some percent and I'm like, yeah, that could be a problem, right? ⁓ Yeah, let's not focus on 50. Let's talk that the goal is 90 and let's start talking about your trend, right? So even if I'm reporting it talk about your trend where were you and where are we going? And then I also like to say with that TIF is recognize what's working well and   reinforce the good. gets reinforced gets repeated, right? And then get team talking about what they will do to overcome any opportunities if we're not at the mark we want.   The Dental A Team (09:36) Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. you just, you saying that about the practice, I'm like, my gosh, that's fantastic. Like 50%, that's not fantastic, but look at how much space there is to create something different. Like that's really freaking cool because practices come in and they're like, I don't know what to do. And I don't know why it's this way. And I just need this. And it's like, this is so cool because there are spaces.   that are really, really simple to tackle that you just didn't uncover yet. And we get to come in and help uncover those. So it's like 50 % reappointment rate. That's fantastic because now we can implement two to three daily actions that severely change the projection in a company that you may have come to us thinking, and I don't know this client, I don't know what she or he was thinking like, but they may have been thinking like, my hands are tied, what do I do?   how do I get more patients? I need more new patients. I hear that all the time and I'm like, well, what about the patients we have? It's so cool. So you just got me really excited about that. So I'm like, holy cow, I can't wait to hear these results. It's gonna be fantastic. But that's case in point. There's a couple of people that probably need that metric, right? A hygienist, hygiene team and scheduling coordinators, like they need these metrics because now they understand what their purpose is in the company and how they can contribute to the overall goals.   DAT Kristy (10:40) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (11:02) Many doctors, I think Kristy, you and I both come across this, many doctors are really afraid, or business owners in general, to talk goals. And I think the piece that gets missed is that goals drive the courage to push forward in life. Without a goal, without a drive, we're just complacent. And so not talking about them and not talking about how   each position can contribute towards those goals, I think is actually a disservice and holding people back.   DAT Kristy (11:39) Yeah, I agree with you, Tiff. think a lot of times people get stuck because goals are related to a lot of times in dentistry, monetary amounts, right? But truly, it's no different than us at home. We have a checkbook and we have a bank account and we have standard bills that we have to pay. And it's not that we have to get nitty gritty on that stuff, but we all have to understand there's a cost of doing business unless we're a   not-for-profit organization, you know? And so again, I love ⁓ how you and Kiera talk about the metrics aren't to beat ourselves up, right? It's not a stick to beat ourselves up with. It truly is just a measure of how healthy we're getting our patients. And the minute that we really get transparent about the numbers and what they mean and relate it to just like patient health and practice health, I mean, we always talk about getting our patients healthy.   What about talking about a healthy practice too, right? And we need to let team know just because, I mean, we hear it every day as consultants, a practice could do $6 million and I could have another practice that does a million and the 6 million inevitably people might think is more healthy than a million and truly that's not the case. So we need to educate our teams and let them know those numbers mean more.   And ⁓ truly it's a reflection of how healthy our patients are and how healthy the practice is.   The Dental A Team (13:14) Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. And your individual metrics then add up to those results. So those of you who are building out the job descriptions, like yes, you need like a how-to, we need to know what those systems and protocols are. But separate from that, they need a heading. They need to know how do I show up? It's like, what are our core values? How do I show up in this position? If we've got, I don't know, a check-in spot, right? We've got a patient coordinator who's at check-in.   DAT Kristy (13:19) Thank you.   The Dental A Team (13:40) and her job description does not say you sit up straight, you smile, and you greet patients with eye contact as soon as they walk in, you can't complain when she's got her head down on the computer or she's got her cell phone and patients are walking in and they're not being greeted. So get nitty gritty on those spaces because that's easy to achieve, right? If she reads that or he reads that, it's like, ⁓ that's the expectation, that's how I'll show up. And then now that feeds into your reschedule rate.   DAT Kristy (13:49) I can't.   The Dental A Team (14:09) Right? Patients are like, heck yeah, I'm coming back. I love seeing Sonia up front. Like it just all feeds into one another. So I think breaking that down into what is this position accomplishing for my practice within the goals that we have set. So if this is my vision, why do I have this position? Why do I have a scheduling coordinator? Why do I have a dental assistant? And then some pieces I think that I promised Kristy we would talk about some positions that you don't always think about. Right? So like sterile tech.   come on guys, there are so many sterile technicians running around that don't know what the heck they're supposed to be doing, there's no job description for a sterile tech and we just kind of run in the mill, let them figure it out, that's the dental way. So like sterile tech or, Kristy, one I know is really big right now is virtual assistants and I have a client who has an entire team of virtual assistants and Kristy, how important is it for the metrics?   the job description ⁓ just in the VA space, so for the VAs, but how important is it for the team to have that VA job description too and know what they can count on those people for?   DAT Kristy (15:21) ⁓ 100%. ⁓ The cool part with it too, Tiff, I mean, yeah, they need to know the expectations of what's being handled so they can hold them accountable just as any other team member, right? But also, I love, especially ⁓ offices where we're looking to develop leadership, when you have in an OM or a practice administrator, if you have a virtual assistant, what if...   great opportunity for them to work with somebody to develop them, right? And you're literally paying them to be there and do a service, but yet your leadership team or developing leadership team can help them be accountable to the metrics, right, that the virtual assistant is there for.   The Dental A Team (16:09) Yeah.   Yeah, absolutely agree. I have a practice that was like, well, like, I know they're doing insurance verification. I'm like, cool. Well, one, how far out are they supposed to be? Like, what's the volume of insurance verifications they're doing? Because we've got some shifts in the front office. Could they take on calling on unpaid insurance claims? And they were like, I don't know. haven't. I have no idea what their time is like. And I haven't talked to them in weeks. I was like, ⁓ hold the phone. I'm going to I got to pick myself up off the floor real quick.   Who's holding these people accountable? You've got to treat them just the same as you would if they were in your practice. And I think that's multifaceted. I have a practice who does really, really well with a couple of each spectrum. But one in particular does really well with virtual assistants because they create them to be part of the team. The virtual assistants do so much as to even show up for Daily Huddle. They're there with them. We have virtual assistants that show up for Daily Huddle. We know our VAs.   practices that it's just like, they're doing this thing and they think of them as a separate entity. I think the VAs get lost. I think the sterile techs get lost. The sterile techs of the world are just lost in our dental field. And they're looking for that direction and they're looking for that drive. I think our VA, right, we've got a newly onboarded one as well, but our VA who just celebrated six months with us, I found out, he has incredible direction in his position.   And I see that he finds fulfillment in the things that he does for our company. And that's really cool to watch and to see. I know we get fulfillment. It's very easy to get fulfillment as a consultant. Like we get to work hands-on with the clients every day. Same as a dental practice, you guys get to see the changes you're making in the patient's mouths, right? And in their daily lives, you know? So then to find metrics where it's like, no, even as a virtual assistant, even as an onboarded,   outsourced billing company, like these are the metrics that are going to show us that you're actually adding incredible value to our team. And how cool is that to have that heading to be like, I get to go to work every day and I get to help this team do better for their community. And that's the piece that I just feel like is missing in a lot of different spaces.   DAT Kristy (18:15) Yeah.   Yeah, I love that you say that, Tiff, because a lot of, I mean, we're familiar, probably the most popular one is in the insurance realm, right? And so I know even a lot of the virtual companies will set up time to meet with the offices weekly, right? And so again, for the OM or the practice administrator, I'm like, how often are you on those? Not very often. I'm like, man, what a missed opportunity, right? Again, to develop your leadership and share with them.   What's your expectations? We want zero claims over 90 days. And again, the metrics aren't to beat ourselves up. If it's not there, how fun to celebrate when, just like the re-care, right? When they hit 60%, we're gonna be celebrating because one little change, right? But painting that clarity, where are we going? What's my expectation? And then getting the team's commitment into how can we...   The Dental A Team (19:17) massive.   DAT Kristy (19:27) improve this, right? But I think you also mentioned something earlier, even outside of the virtual assistant realm, but all of our team members, how often are we meeting with them? And how often are we ⁓ taking the time away from the business to grow and develop them? Right? And review their metrics. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:45) Yeah, massive.   Yeah, and how do you do that if you don't know what you're reviewing? Like, how do you do that if you don't know what their accountabilities are? And how do you help grow someone? know one of the big pieces of leadership that we train on is being able to develop people and giving them a growth plan. And I remember being asked, oh my gosh, I don't even know. I was probably like 28, I don't know, 27. I might.   boss, my office manager pulls me into the office for my one-on-one and she's like, well, where do you see yourself in five years? And I was like, I don't know. Like I think my only, that could be your position. Like what, I don't know what, I don't know what that means, right? Because in those positions in the practice, they don't know. They don't know what's possible, right? Unless they've been there before.   There may be somebody who's maybe worked in another practice and she managed or worked in another practice and he saw this great manager he aspires to be, but most of the time we don't know. And so providing that growth plan, even within the job description of these are the metrics that I get to help grow those. So I can find growth and fulfillment within my own position because I'm growing the practice and growing these metrics. I don't need to take your job.   DAT Kristy (20:45) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (21:03) I can be happy and satisfied in my own because it's written out for me and we're talking about it in the one-on-ones. We're seeing how, you know, where's my goal and how far away am I? Just the same as we're seeing the trends and everything else. So Kristy, I totally agree. Really my 28 year old brain would have been like, this is amazing if it had been like, here's some things that I see, you know? And otherwise I'm like, I don't know. Like how do I answer that? You know?   DAT Kristy (21:29) Yeah. Well,   and to your point, Tiff, with that being said, don't forget to rope in your virtual assistants and have those conversations with them too. Because I think, like you mentioned earlier, the practices that we see ⁓ truly utilizing virtual assistants well are incorporating them, right? They're sharing the expectation, but they're also giving them that feedback and they're treating them like a team member, you know? So if you guys are doing   a bonus system, don't forget your virtual assistants or your sterile techs, right? Include them. They're a huge part of the practice. So.   The Dental A Team (22:08) Yeah, yeah, and to your point, the team that I referenced that does really well with the virtual assistants, the virtual assistant that now does a lot of their scheduling started as insurance verifications and they grew her and she learned the schedule, she listened to the team on calls, they groomed her into that position so that she could take it on because she wanted growth. So I agree, I agree. So gosh, Kristy, this one became really, really fun. Thank you.   for that and taking that journey. And you guys, hope that there are some amazing tidbits that you're able to pick up from here. The biggest one is know your vision, know your goals. Like where is your practice heading so that you can then dial in where is each position heading within those goals. That's gonna be massive. So job descriptions, yes, we can talk about job descriptions all the time. Go Google it on our page, like search it. You're gonna find a million of them. The big point today is the metrics. Like what are these jobs providing?   towards your goal, what's inspiring them to do their work every day, and how are you talking about it and communicating it with them. So, Kristy, thank you so much. I love taking these journeys, and you made this really fun. I appreciate you today, and always every day. Yeah.   DAT Kristy (23:20) Thank you. Thank   you. Always back at you.   The Dental A Team (23:24) Thank   you, thank you. you guys, Kristy's always here for the fun, just expanding on what we're even talking about stuff.   for her name on these podcasts. You will never be disappointed. You're always gonna love them. And as always, leave us a five star review. We'd love to hear what you think and we'd love to hear anything that you guys have in addition to what we talked about. We know we don't know it all. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com.   You can reach us there and we cannot wait to hear from you guys until next time  

Hey HBs! Welcome to day 2 of our podiversary celebration! We're doing Kink Watch, Rabbit Hole Watch, and WOULD YOU RATHER!!!!!!! This Friday on Patreon and our Apple Podcast subscription, Sabrina is telling us all about their most recent EJ Russell rabbit hole! They were on the lookout for less common monster romance and couldn't stop once they found EJ's cozy MM monster romance. Be sure to check out our AMAZING episode sponsor: THE SPITE DATE by Pippa Grant! The Spite Date is a riotously fun opposites attract romance featuring a golden retriever celebrity who needs to get out of his own way, a woman trying to live her best life even if she's not sure exactly how to do that, and a series of plans gone very, very wrong. It stands alone and comes with a sweetly satisfying happily ever after. Curious about the ridiculous faces we make? Subscribe and watch us on YOUTUBE! Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms | Tiktok @heaving_bosoms | Bluesky: @heavingbosoms.com | Threads: @heavingbosoms   Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part 2 of podcast guest Dr. Lauryn Brunclik (of She Slays the Day podcast fame) and her conversation with Kiera. In this follow-up to Becoming Business Savvy with a Clinician-First Mindset, the pair discusses seeking other revenue streams to obtain financial freedom. The chat includes fixing your pricing structure, living below your means, understanding the spender and saver mindsets, time management, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera and welcome back to part two of my chat. If you liked part one, you are going to absolutely love this. I am so excited and I can't wait to dive right in.   Kiera Dent (00:10) Lauryn, I'm very curious. Like you've talked about it at length. Like what do people do? Like what's the how, how do we get into this?   How do we have multiple streams because agreed all eggs in one basket? gosh. It's, ⁓ to me, that's like just a ticking time bomb. Like one bad day, one bad patient, one bad procedure. Like it's just going to explode because you're sitting like you're sitting on the edge of fear all the time to where you are in like cortisol adrenaline, like you are pumping. And then what you do is you go into complete shutdown because you can't handle it anymore. So your body and your system literally like just shuts down on you. You become apathetic to life.   Dr. Lauryn B (00:23) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (00:44) things aren't exciting for you anymore. You become very numb to walking through the world. And it's like, I feel like the world of color goes into very like gray. It's very subtle. It's like, it's, there's no, there's no life left. It's just, are living life, but you're not actually being and living day in, out. So what are some tacticals? Like I'm so curious. I love to hear that.   Dr. Lauryn B (01:04) Well, so,   I mean, ultimately what you have to, I'm no cashflow expert. My husband would like laugh, not, he wouldn't laugh. He'd just be like, what's she gonna say right now? So like cashflow will multiply the more you start putting your money to work, okay? So it's very, very, step one is simple. It's exactly what you said. You have to have cashflow coming from your clinic.   Kiera Dent (01:14) okay.   Dr. Lauryn B (01:33) You have to. Like, you need to spend less money than you are bringing in. Okay?   Kiera Dent (01:42) Ooh, love that. Ding, ding. All right, great. Got it, team. Got it all.   Dr. Lauryn B (01:45) Like, so it's   it's simple. what did you say? Like you said, there's only three ways to make it happen. Like lower your overhead. Yep. Yep. See more people. Yep.   Kiera Dent (01:50) There are, either cut your costs, increase what you're producing. like for how many patients you're seeing and   or collections, because a lot of times you're producing enough, but we're not collecting the money that we're actually producing. that then costs, people are have no money. And I'm like, you have 500,000 sitting in your AR that's not collected. So you actually have money. You just have a broken system of how to collect it. And to your point, my husband said this very early on when I started that company, he said,   I care, don't lose money. He was like, yeah, I'm not going to give you any rules, any parameters. He's like, just don't lose money because that's going to cause a lot of strain on us. And I thought about that a lot. It's like, ⁓ I guess that's a great, a great plan. Like it's really been a good thought for me. But it's like, if you are going to lose money on having a business, go be an associate for someone else. Like it's a hobby at that point. It's not a business. So I'm like, if you're not going to have your business make money for you, like truly no judgment.   Dr. Lauryn B (02:24) Thanks, husband.   Yes.   Kiera Dent (02:44) go honestly be an associate, go work for someone else so you're taking home a paycheck. When owners are working for themselves and making less than they are as an associate, I'm like, we have a big problem here. And now you're mad because you got way more problems. You can't just clock in, clock out and leave for the day. And I'm like, that's actually not a business. That's a hobby. And it's a bad hobby. You have no freedom. No, it's delusional. No.   Dr. Lauryn B (02:57) Mm-hmm.   And they're like, but I have the freedom when I'm the owner. You don't have freedom? can't afford a vacation. what? You have   no freedom.   Kiera Dent (03:11) Stop lying to yourself just because you own a business. People are like, I wanted this texture, have more time. And I'm like, yeah, tell me how that's going for you. Probably not great. All right, so we gotta have a business that actually cash flows. Simple stuff.   Dr. Lauryn B (03:16) How's that working for you? Yeah.   Yes, so step   one is very simple, but not is you have to fix the pricing structure, the collections, your payroll blow. You need to look at the profit margins of your clinic. Very easy, very difficult, but very easy.   Kiera Dent (03:37) And they're   industry specific too. I don't know how it is in chiropractic, but I know in like dentistry, we say right now, even with all the things like I want 30%, we're talking all things, fringe benefits, 401k. Like 30 % for payroll, 25 to 30 is about average. And we aim for, I don't know how it is in chiropractic, but I aim for a 50%, not including doctor pay, 50 % overhead in dental practices, 30 % of doctor pay, because I'm like, that's what you're gonna get paid as an associate. It's like, let's at least pay you that.   Dr. Lauryn B (03:45) No, that's pretty yeah, that's pretty healthy. ⁓   Kiera Dent (04:04) And then hopefully we've got a 20 % profit, but that profit debt services click in and that's a real fun zone and taxes. Like I love it. No, you're not getting your W two people are not taking taxes out. You own this business. All that money comes to you. So do not get trapped in that like tax trap. but like, like that's a very simple formula and you look, what is my supplies? What are my rent? Like, what are all those things? And if you figure out the benchmarks, then you know, which one am I bleeding money on quickly fix that hole. So we stopped bleeding it again.   It seems so hard. And you and I are on the other side of that equation saying, no, actually it's like real simple. You just look at it real quick, figure out what it is. You can build your practice to support whatever numbers you need, or we cut. Usually it's easier to increase production and collections than it is to cut. But a lot of people are just overspending in ridiculous ways that I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like I have a practice, I looked at their numbers. They shouldn't giggle. I did giggle, because I was shocked. They're like, here, we have no money.   And I was like, all right, send me your P &L. Let's take a look at it. So I did. Year to date, they produced 528,000. So they're doing about 85,000 per month is what I calculated when I ran the numbers. But when I looked at their take-home pay, they're taking home, so it's 528. I'm super happy for them. Like don't, there's no judgment on that. They're taking home 250,000 of that 528 is going to the doctor, which again, I'm happy that they're taking home the money. But what's happening is the practice is not producing enough for that.   They're running all their kids through it. They're running their cars through it. They're running everything through it, which again is not a bad thing. But if you don't have cash in your business to hire people, I was like, we're a little off on the percentages.   Dr. Lauryn B (05:37) Yeah. One of my favorite things to teach people   is because people are like, I just want to learn tax strategy. I want to learn tax strategy, tax strategy. And you're like, okay, here's the thing about tax strategy is you can only do tax strategy. Can't see I'm doing air quotes here. If you have money that you don't want to give the government, if you are spending   Kiera Dent (05:47) you   Mm-hmm. Air quotes, I see them.   it.   Dr. Lauryn B (06:06) much as you make and the government's like, yeah, you're good. You don't know anything. Like there's no strategy to be had. Strategy can only apply to profits. you know, like to money you've made. So, so that's where it's like, okay, I get that you really want tax strategy, but like you're, you don't need strategy yet. You just need to create more.   Kiera Dent (06:09) There is no tech strategy. ⁓ That is a tech strategy. No.   Yes.   You   just need money to then pay taxes on. Then we can talk about what it's gonna be. Yes.   Dr. Lauryn B (06:37) Yes, then we can talk strategy.   But yeah, so like that's where it starts. The next hard part, and this is where I kind of touched on like, we went into this career because we believed this career was gonna take care of us while we took care of other people. And so everybody's got a little different version of what that means. ⁓ What car they think they should be driving.   Kiera Dent (06:42) That's a point.   Ready.   Dr. Lauryn B (07:06) once they have made it, what ⁓ their house situation should look like, how many vacations, their spouse, if they're buying their spouse, designer bags and things like that. Like we have in our head once we make it, what life will look like. And so after you fix your cashflow thing, the next thing is like,   you gotta kind of continue to live below your means for a while. Because if all of a sudden you've fixed your profit margins and you have an extra $30,000 flowing into bank accounts a month that does not have a job, like, you're just like, we're gonna move into a bigger clinic, we're gonna hire another doctor, we're gonna do this. And all of a sudden that...   Kiera Dent (07:58) Let's go!   Dr. Lauryn B (08:04) that potential, but like you have to have money in excess to build wealth upon. If you fix the first problem, which is we don't have enough money, okay great, now you have enough money, and then instead of building wealth, you buy a Birkin, which I still keep sending my husband all of the memes and reels that like Birkins are apparently, you know, they are also   appreciating, they're beating the S &P. So I'm just saying maybe a Birkin was a bad example because that would be an investment. ⁓   Kiera Dent (08:36) See?   I why not? think there's a   lot we could probably justify in the investment realm. Like it's fine. I'm here for it.   Dr. Lauryn B (08:46) Right, right. But   no, you know, if it's like one of those things where if you just lifestyle inflate after you fixed your cashflow issue, what's going to happen is, is you're going to still be, you're going to have like golden handcuffs where you're like, well, yeah, the clinic is bringing in 1.2 and like, yeah, I do keep 350 of that, but I still.   like I'm paying off my student, because your student loan payment now is increasing and like this and like your mortgage and all of this stuff. And you're gonna, you have the potential if you're not careful to feel just as squeezed financially, even though you've gone to the next level of salary and income, but you can still feel that exact same financial scare. And so like that's another thing where it's like, okay, you have to figure out,   the balance for you and your spouse because like my husband, ⁓ my husband is definitely, so this is from Garrett Gunderson. He's a really great financial wealth advisor. don't know if he's in your guys's world. Yes. Okay. Yes. So he was on my podcast and he was talking about how basically within all the   Kiera Dent (09:53) I love him.   Definitely. We love him.   Dr. Lauryn B (10:04) that he's coached people through, there's basically, he used a different word, but right now I'll just call it the the saver and the spender. Okay.   Now the spender tends to be the visionary, the CEO. It tends to be the person that's like taking the risks to build the things. They're like, we had a record year, we're   reward ourselves, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, life is fun, this is great, this is like a... And then they often marry a ⁓ saver that is just like...   I don't need all of that. I don't need another vacation. I don't need a fancier car. I don't need this. ⁓ And it can actually make them very uncomfortable that, you know, so my husband is, we'll call it   saver. ⁓ And we go, I mean, our travel budget a year is insane.   we should definitely be putting that towards crypto and like buying a duplex and like building more. But   Kiera Dent (10:57) you.   But why? But why?   Dr. Lauryn B (11:04) If someone told me like, no, no,   no, here's the plan. You get one trip a year and then we're gonna just like   all of this money and then you can start around 45, like, know, and then at 50, it'll open up a little bit more. Like, I'd like, well, that's no fun. I don't want that. And so you have to figure out, because there's a ditch on both sides of the road, right? And so you have to figure out like, when do you want to retire?   Kiera Dent (11:28) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (11:33) Like what is that number? What is that freedom number? How much money do you need coming in in like passive investments? Like how much do you need your crypto portfolio to be doing? Like your real estate portfolio. What's that number of monthly income or annual income? And when do you want to get there by? And this is going to be so dependent on whoever you're talking to.   if you're 50 and you're like, I want to get there by 55.   and you're starting,   not great. Like, yeah, okay, you know what? Your travel budget, you just need to not worry about that for five years. Like, you got some work to do. But like, if you're sitting here at 35 and you're like, I'd like to retire by 50, and like, I still wanna take our kids on some vacations, but I do think we should be, you know, then you just gotta pick where are you pinching pennies? Like, because you gotta pinch them somewhere. So like, maybe it's...   not designer handbag season. Maybe it's not getting the newest vehicle. Maybe you'd rather live in a bigger house, but drive a more reasonable car. Whatever it is, maybe you have no problem giving up vacations, but you need that pool in your backyard. Again, there's a ditch on both sides. think that as this couple, you need to come together and figure out.   that equation where even after you're getting some of these doctor luxuries that you've worked hard for, there's still money left over that is being invested wisely.   Kiera Dent (13:13) love Lauryn that you talked about Garrett Gunderson and I love that there's the saver and the spender in every relationship because this happens like it's a real thing. ⁓ And I love that you talk about like, okay, one step one is like, you got to make money and you got to keep the money. So it's like, make the money and keep the money. I have like, okay, if we could just follow that. Jocko Willings, he's got a quote. This is like discipline equals freedom. And it sits in my kitchen, which I think is a very smart place to stick this sign. I see it all the time. And I'm like, that really is step one is like discipline on this.   Dr. Lauryn B (13:28) Make the money, keep the money.   Kiera Dent (13:43) And I think that there's like, one of our consultants, says, choose your hard. And I think about this, like both sides have a hard, like spending all the money has a hard of like being broke. Saving the money has the hard of you've got to actually put like parameters in place. So both have it. But for me, I'd rather sleep at night knowing I've got money in the bank rather than like sitting there wondering how I'm going to make payroll. Like to me, that's the hard I would rather choose. I would not rather not choose the other side. So I'm going to be disciplined there. And then,   I really started working on and I heard at a conference about like just an easy way. Cause my husband, I'm the spender. He's the saver. And it's really thrilling for me because I felt annoyed. I felt like I was dragging him like an anchor. Like we were going on vacation. We're buying the cars and like, don't like cut my wind out of my sails. Like I was so angry about it. So we actually had to make a vision board of both of us. Like what are his dreams and what are my dreams? And we like co put it up on the wall. It literally sits in our bedroom. And it was one of the best things I ever did because he wasn't able to see what inspires me and what I'm excited about what   what's important to me. And I was able to see what's important to him. We also figured out like what's our BAM, our bare ACE minimum as a couple and where we want that. And then when you're talking about like the savings, I really found this awesome principle where it's kind of like, ultimately, what does it actually cost you to get to financial freedom? And when I did this exercise and I do it with a lot of clients, you can actually break it down. like, what does that like, bougie, whatever life you want that to look like, what does that look like? What's your mortgage? What's your HOA? What's the internet? What's the utilities like?   What's our groceries? What's our food bill? What's our children bill? Like how many cars do we have on this? And like literally build that out to what's like my highest end. And then you actually scale it back down to basically like, what's my security bucket? Like for me to just survive, like you said, like the monks, like what is it for me? Like scrap it all down. Let's go back to dental school. Let's go back to chiropractic school. Like when I was at my like most broke, but I could scrap like you guys, can top around and like a boss, like I know I could get through. So like, what is my like minimum amount?   Then what I do, so basically taking that all the way up to my financial freedom, like where I've got money making money, it's a money making machine for me. And then how do I actually break that down? So I've got security, then I've got like growth, then I've got independence, and then I've got freedom. And then beyond that are like your prosperity and your legacy buckets. And so when I look at this, it's like, you basically just chunk it down. And what I mean, I'm such a nerd, I really am. I've like learned to fall in love. I like took that amount of like total dollars.   Then I looked at like, how much money do I actually need to make? What tax bracket am I in? How much do I need like pre and post tax? Like again, total nerd side on my side. But then I was able to look and I'm like, okay, for this practice, I know that for them to be like, just baseline, they need to be making about a hundred grand a year. Like that's pre-tax. So we know like we're to take tax out. We can survive. That's like our security. Then our growth goes up to 202 post-tax. Then our independence is at like 553. Well, now I know my mile markers of what I need to do. And I also have those parameters. you said, where am I going to penny pinch?   This does not mean that I don't have certain luxuries, but it means that I'm like, it's like a gradient and I'm able to see what I'm working towards. And I remember my CPA, he told me once he said, Kiera, it actually becomes a lot easier to make money. And like once you, like in a few years, once you've bought a few of the things that you really are looking for, and I was like, you're full of it. Like, I don't believe you for a second, but it's true. Like as you evolve.   You buy the things you want, you get the house that you want, you get the car that you think you want, you get the designer bags, like it's not all overnight. And then you're like, wow, I have a decent amount because I've learned to make the money, save the money, not spend everything that I've got. I'm able to then plan for these purchases that I want. I love Profit First, Mike McAllags. He's like my fangirl central every time he's on the podcast. I like just love him so much, but I'm like, okay, then I have buckets. have my travel bucket. And you're right, Mike, my travel.   Dr. Lauryn B (17:18) yeah. Sweep account. Sweep! ⁓   Kiera Dent (17:28) amount, that's something that fuels me. So we pump money into a travel fund, but we have those to where I now have budgets and our clients have budgets and you can have budgets. And it's not for me, clients have even told me that's more freeing than it is otherwise, because they actually know I can spend this money guilt free and go on the trip. can go and buy this car guilt free because I have the money.   Dr. Lauryn B (17:46) Mm-hmm.   And that's probably really   helpful for your spouse too. A lot of times the saver spouse, like it's hard for them until there's like an act, like that's the permission they need of like, no, we ran the numbers and we like this amount of money was proportionally taken and it's there. It's only to be spent on this. And they're like, okay.   Kiera Dent (17:52) Thanks.   Yes.   Yes.   Okay. And then the spender feels good because they're not just blowing all the money. So it's on this like, it's a good balance, but I love it. Like it's very simple. And now I'm very curious, Lauryn, because you've talked about like not having your business as your only asset, like that's cash flowing for you. Once we've got a simple, we like make the money and we keep the money like check that off. Then we go into these like, I love the idea. There's a ditch on both sides of the road. So which one are we going to do? We figure out like, what do need today? What are my future like?   Dr. Lauryn B (18:28) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (18:41) kind of nice purchases that I want to, how do I build up to these other ones that I can save for? What's my total number? Like I know my number for financial freedom is psychotic. When I look at that, it really is. I actually have it.   Dr. Lauryn B (18:51) Is it really? Because I'm   interested that you said that because most people when they do that exercise are kind of like, ⁓ it's surprising to them that it's actually not higher. like, so.   Kiera Dent (19:12) Well, let me just clarify.   Let me ask this for you, Lauryn. What I found is for me to hit like my security, my vitality, my independence. Like we're talking like pretty much up to freedom. I'm actually it's good. Like we're there, but my absolute freedom, like where I never have to work another day in my life for me, that number, that number is a little more extreme. That one, but like even looking at it now, cause when I told you, I'm like, it's psychotic. I just pulled the spreadsheet up. What's fun though is I built this.   Dr. Lauryn B (19:30) ⁓ okay.   Yeah. Okay, the like I quit number, the like.   Kiera Dent (19:42) gosh, I like I should honestly look, I think I built this spreadsheet, I'm going to we're gonna hold everybody I know you're like on pins and needles, I'm just gonna scroll back to when I actually made this. It's on Google Sheets, you can go back to like when it was built. So I built this and I think this is really just telling for people I built this in 2022. So May 13 2022 at 1026 am is when I built it. We're now recording this in 2025. So we're only talking just over three years since I originally built it.   I told you Lauryn that my number for absolute freedom, we're talking like I put it all because I have a jet in there. I have a charter jet. I have a private like I put all these things like it was just I have like I want to   Dr. Lauryn B (20:17) You have a jet in there? Okay, well most people when   they do the exercise the way I have them do it aren't putting jets in there. I love you, Kiera. Okay, we're gonna stay friends because I want on that jet. Kiera error.   Kiera Dent (20:25) Like I'm telling you this is my absolute freedom. This is the absolute absolute like here is living this life I mean girl you can come cuz I just like   I wanted to see like what does this look like and I want to have like I don't want to retire in a retirement home I want to live in a villa like I've got some pretty lofty things in this like we're talking I went for like   Dr. Lauryn B (20:41) Right. Did you put the pilot   costs in there too or does that just come with a jet?   Kiera Dent (20:45) So my husband actually wants to be a pilot. So that's already like built in. So I've got like that. I also have friends that are pilots like, you know, yellow, we're gonna have that. Thank you, thank you. So on that, and I actually went through this, like I built it the first time, but we're talking three years. And I look at that to have that absolute freedom. The annual income pre-tax would be 4.6 million, which that can sound like an outlandish number. However, based on where the business is now, it's not that outlandish. And that was just a short.   Dr. Lauryn B (20:49) Okay. Okay. Okay. The jet makes a little more sense now, but yeah, got it.   No, it's doable.   Kiera Dent (21:15) three year period where I'm like, I mean, we got a jet, I got play money. mean, guys in-house chef, live in nanny, we've got all the cars, I've got my Lambo, I've got chartered flights in there, like you name it. And I look at this and I often assess because Kiera three years ago wanted some of these things and Kiera today might look at that and be like, know, I actually don't want these things, but this is what I'd rather. I'd rather like buy a house for my parents or I'd rather do this, but you will shift and change.   Dr. Lauryn B (21:16) And that's got a freaking jet in it.   Kiera Dent (21:45) But it's so crazy because when I look at that, I'm like, all right. So I know if things get tight in the business, I know, all right, rock on. Like pre-tax, we need to make a hundred grand. Like easy. We can handle that. We can create that. We can figure that out. That's it. Again, just a math equation. But then when you look up and you scale up, it becomes so much more doable and realistic. And then for me, I don't know how you feel, Lauryn. It's like, now the number doesn't feel like, got it. I know actually like what I'm working towards. I know how I can now do the math equation. It's not like I have to make   500 million to be free. It's like, no, I need this money because it will now go into investments. It will go into other places. I know how much that's going to generate for me. I know how much it's going to estimate grow. And I don't know. It just is pretty magical. So I'm very curious. Like, what are your other revenue streams that you recommend when we're looking at this and we're building that financial freedom? We're looking at like, okay, I kind of am. I'm hoping that people listening to this podcast are putting like dots together. Like, okay, got it. Like make the money, keep the money.   Dr. Lauryn B (22:17) Mm-hmm.   Hmm.   Kiera Dent (22:38) figure out how I'm gonna spend it, but not overspend it and still keep the money so I don't pinch on that side. Then I'm gonna look to see where I ultimately wanna get in my life. Now, like what are some other things like if we're there, how did you get it to where you weren't just reliant on your business anymore?   Dr. Lauryn B (22:52) So first I will say that none of this is any tax or legal advice and you must talk to your CPA or whatever. Yeah, here's my little disclaimer. I am not an accountant or anything, a lawyer or anything like that. So right now, so I just interviewed someone on crypto. So I am really, really lucky that my husband, he's a very early adopter. And so   Kiera Dent (22:58) This is true our little disclaimer there guys go talk to people that are not   Dr. Lauryn B (23:21) We have been pretty involved in crypto for   Kiera Dent (23:26) Which is why you said   do crypto like all the things like I should be putting this in crypto not going on trips. I now get it. All right, go on.   Dr. Lauryn B (23:33) So I just interviewed someone on my podcast who's like a crypto investor and like some of the predictions that the crypto people, the crypto people are saying about   going to happen with crypto, what could happen with crypto in the next five years,   4.6 million would be easy. So like if our current crypto ⁓   Kiera Dent (23:55) Chump change, like truly, truly.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:01) account like amount that we have invested   did even a fraction of like what like we'd be we'd be pretty   pretty pretty good even if that doesn't happen in five years if it like takes 10 so crypto for us   Kiera Dent (24:08) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:14) and like i said i just i knew that like that was the thing that for him but like i just really got i got off this interview and i was like how much did you invest last month we need   double it we need to like and he's like yeah   This is so exciting. Like I have been priceless. I've been really obsessed with a Cartier watch lately. Like a real like, and so I have was, I'm already   Kiera Dent (24:28) That's where he'll spend there, Lauryn.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:37) about my 2026 vision board because I'm in Enneagram three and we do weird   like that. And so I I was like, I want to go to Switzerland and   Kiera Dent (24:41) I love it.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:46) want to   to Switzerland and buy a Cartier watch. Cause that's where they're made. And like, and now I'm like, you know, maybe we should   Kiera Dent (24:52) Yeah.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:56) delay, that would be better put into crypto. And he's just like, this is the saver husband is just like, this is the greatest thing in the world. So anyway, so that's one bucket. ⁓ And you know, he spends a good amount of time each week, each day monitoring. So I won't even call that passive. I think that crypto can be a lot more passive depending on how you do it. I'm not going to get any deeper into the waters here because we are at my like limit of understanding of crypto.   Kiera Dent (25:02) He's loving it. Okay, so crypto. Okay.   Okay, perfect.   Dr. Lauryn B (25:24) I know   that you can   very active in investing and there are ways that can be much more passive. ⁓ So real estate, obviously   think that real estate is the secret of the wealthy for decades and decades and decades and it's not such a secret anymore. It comes with its own things. We both experienced 2007. I luckily had just gone into school, but there are people who lost their asses in 2007 with real estate. So not foolproof. Also,   Kiera Dent (25:50) only.   Dr. Lauryn B (25:54) not incredibly passive. We throw the word passive around way too much in this, but I will say where the majority currently and where we're like next year, how I'm getting to 3 million and this and that, a good percentage of it is very, very active in the personal brand coaching side of things.   Kiera Dent (25:56) I would agree on that. You gotta have a lot of doors, lots of doors, lots of time.   I agree.   Dr. Lauryn B (26:22) I have built and have continued building. ⁓ so, you know, podcast, sure, that makes some money, but like where very actively, where I spend more time on than in my clinic is in the online space of coaching courses, programs, webinars, membership. And that's when you find, and here's the thing.   is like every dentist listening, every chiropractor listening is like, okay, so I need to coach other dentists. I need to coach other chiropractors. And it's like, no, what I'm saying is, is online, there is a lot of money that can be made. It's not easier, but it's also not harder. It's its own hard. I just solved a different problem for someone. So I had the business that we solve this problem. And then I figured out a way. So we talked about the financial.   Kiera Dent (27:05) Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (27:18) freedom, but then I figured out the time freedom that I wasn't needed there all the time. So I could sit and go, what's another problem that I can sell a solution to?   Kiera Dent (27:33) Okay, let's like pause there. I'm very curious. How did you get, how did you solve the time solution? Like guilt free, like walk me through. I know it's like a pile whole nother episodes. Like do it in like a chunk or probably close to time.   Dr. Lauryn B (27:38) God, that's.   Yeah, well, I mean,   you ultimately, you pay for your time. So like, I am not collecting as much money from my clinic as I could if I was there doing the service. Like, that's just kind of obvious. ⁓ So I am paying for doctors that I wouldn't need a doctor. I could get rid of an entire doctor's salary if I just worked full time.   Kiera Dent (27:59) Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (28:10) I could also get rid of my amazing and well-paid director of ops. So this was a big game changer for us is so like, you may have a doctor on staff that's like your clinic director. You know, they're really in charge of like patient care, whatever, things like that. I recommend having a not office manager, a director of operations.   Kiera Dent (28:25) Thank   Dr. Lauryn B (28:39) Okay, like this is not an office manager. A lot of time your office manager is like by default, the person who's been with you the longest. Like we hired in a specific skillset that was going to be my eyes, ears, hands, feet, pretty much everything except my visionary brain.   Kiera Dent (28:40) Nothing.   and   Dr. Lauryn B (29:03) She does HR meetings, she does hiring, she does firing, she monitors stats. I meet with her once a week and I get reports. I pay her pretty well. And like honestly, she needs another raise and so does my other doctor. Like, so this is what's hard.   Kiera Dent (29:17) Yeah.   So let's just break it down. I   don't wanna know exactly what your Director of Operations gets paid, but let's give a range so people understand, because I think people don't realize what we're paying for that. So are we talking? Okay, perfect. And for some of you, might hear like, yes. And I would say that that, I would say it's probably 60 to 150 penny upon, for dentists, the size and practice, like I have seen that come through. So again, looking to see where it is.   Dr. Lauryn B (29:27) Probably 60 to 90 grand.   depending on your city and things like that.   can.   and   especially like if you're running multiple clinics. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (29:44) Yes. So   when you said that though, when we were talking about the audacious number and we're like, Hey, 4.6, like it seems so, but you're like, it's really big. But I think if people were to hear that and think K 60 to 90, if I were to pay somebody 90, but not have to do all the meetings, not all the hiring, not all the firing, what is your time worth? Go to Dan Martell, buy back your time. He's one of my favorites. Like what is your dollar per hour when you're doing dentistry or when you're doing chiropractic?   And could you hire that out? Like how many hours could you do or use your visionary brain to grow the business, grow other things? Well, yes, that's a great salary. It also, think when we put it with your time, I think a lot of people could see that on a balance sheet of a very good investment because I think time is one of your greatest assets. So again, I just want to highlight because a lot of people may think it's like 200.   Dr. Lauryn B (30:26) Mm-hmm.   Well, and I'm in a circle back.   So, cause I said, there's like the two different reasons you're burning out. Although I've listed like 17 at this point. You you've got the person who just wants to care for people and they have to run a business. And then you've got the person who's like, I've solved this. So like, I don't remember who said it, but they basically said there's like two types of people. And this is a really great question to ask when you're hiring. It's one of my favorite questions. ⁓ Are you the type of person?   Kiera Dent (30:39) Yeah   Dr. Lauryn B (30:57) who wants to solve the same problem every day and get more efficient and faster and better at solving that puzzle, or are you a person who would rather have a brand new puzzle every day and figure out   to solve that puzzle? There is no wrong answer here. You are not a less than person because people hear that and they go, oh.   I wanna be the exciting person. And this is why so many people end up in entrepreneurship that shouldn't is because they hear the air quotes, right answer there. the exciting answer is I want a new puzzle. Most people are not psycho like   if you   that you're that person, when you're really, this is totally cool to be like a more efficient problem solving, like same puzzle. But that's what a business is.   Kiera Dent (31:49) Yes.   Dr. Lauryn B (31:50) after a   certain point, you are solving the same problem. And so I literally couldn't. I couldn't, so like, yes, I could say like, well, I had the option of not spending that money on salary and just like stepping into my practice even more and being that director of ops and being that, I couldn't. I was done. At this point, this had been like 12 years.   Like, this is really more more recent. I've been in practice 15 years. So it was really more like three years ago that I was like, I can't, I want to. And I feel like a bad person that I'm like, I can still be the visionary. I can still check in and I still love hands-on patience. Like, ⁓ but like we need to hand this baton to somebody better because I will die if I have to keep hiring and doing some of this stuff.   Kiera Dent (32:47) You   How did your team and doctors take that? Because I think people are so scared of like, well, why does Lauryn get to go have one or two days in the office and we're here five days? Like, did you have any of that backlash? Like, how did that go?   Dr. Lauryn B (32:50) And so.   they're continue, you know, like, yeah, your people are people are people. And we can't, we can't, as if I don't get, my husband has to talk me off a ledge, you know, once a month about like, can you believe, like, we, they're just humans who are also living their experience and wanting more money and like seeing you live abundantly and feeling feelings of jealousy. Like you can't cure anybody who says like they've cured jealousy.   from their team culture, they are lying. So like feelings of jealousy and greed, these are natural human emotions that your staff is going to go through. And so, you know, I would say that more recently as we, because like we're talking about like, hey, the clinic numbers are not good enough for...   Kiera Dent (33:36) Yeah   Dr. Lauryn B (34:00) abundance and bonuses and raises. We've told you what we need the clinic numbers to be at in order for raises to happen.   Kiera Dent (34:06) I hope everybody listening   just heard how she was a CEO and she told them, these are what the numbers are. This is what we have to do. It's not, me give you bonuses and pay you more in hopes to get that number up there. Like rewind that, listen to that over and over and over again, because you have to have this team needs to see that. Otherwise, this is how you don't make the money and keep the money. You make the money and you pay more money and you're broke. Go on.   Dr. Lauryn B (34:27) Yeah, and for the first, that's   how I got to the worst, the best worst year of my life, you biggest revenue, but worst income was because we had been giving raises based on like effort and like they're working really hard. They deserve a raise. So an employee can deserve a raise, but there's not money to give them. So like we're simultaneously this year dealing with like, hey,   I wanna give raises, but like it's gotta be here and we're close, but we're not there. They simultaneously see me just fucking killing it in the online space and spending, because also like in the personal brand, like I coach healthcare providers how to launch a personal brand. And so like I talk about like, hey, I got a $2,000 affiliate check. We invested $13,000 from crypto. If you go find me on Instagram @DrLaurynB, you will see like,   My posts are about abundance and what a personal brand can do for you and how like the behind the scenes of like, yeah, we are, we're talking about diversifying income. Like this is how much our real   portfolio made last month. People want to know that, but my staff sees that. And so they're like, well, she rich. Why is she trying to tell us   she can't give us, why is it? And so, so like even literally this month.   Kiera Dent (35:45) that we don't have money. because the business, the business.   Dr. Lauryn B (35:52) We're in like calm, kind, one-to-one conversations having to be like, you know, but I will say my husband and I, like, this is like real life. These are conversations that literally happened like a week and a half ago where I came to my husband because prior the clinic was all the money. It was all the money. It was the biggest thing. It was really in the last two years that things switched.   where it was like, now my clinic is like, when do we call my clinic my side gig? Because I'm literally making four times as much on this personal brand in digital space. ⁓ And so we realized that,   Kiera Dent (36:20) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (36:32) there isn't money for raises that they want. There isn't money for bonuses. But can I,   Lauryn Brunclik.   who loves my employees, can I give them, can I shower them with birthday presents and anniversary presents and Christmas presents? Can I buy them lunch because they saved my ass because I came in late from a podcast recording or this or that? Yeah, because Lauryn can, like the personal, like we are fine. We are rich, great, this is great.   But like my head was so like the only money from a business mind that we can spend is the money that's allowed. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Now we're entering a whole new ball field where it's like, you know what? I can, but it's not gonna come from bonuses and raises. Those come from clinic performance. And so we are kind of going like, okay, FYI, this isn't coming from chiropractic. This is coming from me.   Kiera Dent (37:30) Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (37:41) loving and appreciating all that you do in this clinic so that I can. So what does this look like? You take a week off and you go golf the greatest like golf whatever courses and like you just like have this bucket list thing. This looks like you showing acts of appreciation, bringing gifts, buying them dinner, like whatever it is like.   showing appreciation for your staff that they are there so you can live your best life. They were there so you could leave early and go watch your kids dance recital. So like, although our natural instinct is to only show them that we appreciate them through raises and bonuses, and that's what they want. So like anytime you can do it. ⁓   Kiera Dent (38:38) I agree.   I agree. I feel like both.   Dr. Lauryn B (38:40) Sometimes   you have to figure out more creative ways to show your appreciation to them that they are doing that so you can't.   Kiera Dent (38:49) I love that. Wow. Lauryn, this is such a fun podcast. think like to put a pretty bow on this. What would you say if a doctor, your listeners, my listeners, if they're listening to this, what would you say would be like, wrap up takeaways from I mean, we have gone the gown. I love this. I felt like we were on the most random road trip of like we were going to this stop going to this one.   Dr. Lauryn B (39:08) I'm not sure if we took this entire transcript   and uploaded it to AI. It would be like, no, you guys are amazing. Here's your silver thread.   Kiera Dent (39:17) That would be amazing. So what would you say would be kind of like key takeaways or things that maybe we didn't get to that you just feel like listeners, business owners, those running the day to day clinic, whether you want to be on whichever side of this burnout coin, if you want to be there and serve the patients but are sick of doing the business, if you're on the side of like, gosh, I like just want to run the business and do other things outside of this, like looking at the burnout, looking at the generations that we're going through. I mean, we went the gamut of   from investments and passive income to appreciating your team as you as a person rather than the business. Like so many fun, different like ideas and aha moments. Any last thoughts you wanna add to put a pretty bow on today's podcast?   Dr. Lauryn B (39:57) All well, that's a really hard question, but you're lucky I actually do have something to say. was like, oh God, okay. All right, so was listening to a podcast this morning. Simon Sinek had Arthur Brooks on, and Arthur Brooks is, I don't know, political science, behavioral science, I think behavioral science. And he just very briefly in the interview said that like,   Kiera Dent (39:59) I know. Hey, good, good.   Dr. Lauryn B (40:21) It's human nature that we go through a reinvention of our career and have to reinvent ourselves every seven to 12 years. And that's just, that's gonna happen. So from the time that you graduate high school until the time that you retire, you're going to need to reinvent yourself multiple times. And the more that you fight that, the more that you, you you're at that seven year itch or whatever,   and instead of embracing reinvention, whatever that looks like for you, maybe you're bringing on new services into your clinic. like, it doesn't need to mean you need to lean out at that point, but you might just need a little, like, re-ignition, a reinvention of your brand. ⁓ The more that you fight that and go, I shouldn't feel this way, what's wrong with me? Like, like if you're sitting there broke and you're just stuck,   in a place of instead of reinventing yourself into this wealthy, healthy doctor that you know you can be, but instead you're like, God, I'm 39. I don't have my shit together. I should be making more money. I should, like, the more you just sit in this, what's wrong with me? It's just gonna torture yourself. I truly believe that people, you know, let's say they get 12 years into their career.   I believe that there are ⁓ too high of a percentage of people that literally just plan on embracing the suck the rest of their career instead of reinventing themselves for something joyful and abundant. And that just makes me so sad. So that's what I would say is my final thing is if you feel wherever you're at in your career, if you're feeling this, like this is your permission. It's not from me, it's from Arthur Brooks. He's some smart.   Kiera Dent (42:17) Yeah.   Dr. Lauryn B (42:18) Like you were smart enough to be on Simon Sinek, all right? He's giving you permission. This is not just a unique thing. This is human nature. And so figure it out. What does reinvention look like for you? ⁓ And just start doing the work.   Kiera Dent (42:35) Lauryn, that was absolutely beautiful and I hope people listen. I hope they take action. They take advice. ⁓ Because I think what you just said is so freeing and so beautiful. So I really hope people don't just listen, but actually take action. So Lauryn, I love this today. It was so fun. How can people get in? It's a great time. I'm like when we in person, I guarantee you'll be someone we will be fast friends in real life. Like just loved having you on here today. How can people get connected with you? How can they see your   Dr. Lauryn B (42:51) We should meet up in real life.   Kiera Dent (43:03) life again, I believe like when we watch other people we become like them. So it's like, I want people like you. I want people that are abundant. I want people like this is what the podcast is for. This is why we bring people together. How can people get connected with you if they want to know more about you see what you're doing? How can they   Dr. Lauryn B (43:07) Mm-hmm.   yeah, and if you   related to this, you'll love my Instagram, because this is everything that I talk about. So it's @DrLaurynB and Lauryn is with a Y. So ⁓ Instagram is definitely the place I hang out the most. Send me a DM if you listen to this. Like I am in my DMs all the time. And I would just, yeah, that's the best place.   Kiera Dent (43:34) I love it. We are millennials. Instagram's our jam. We're not on Snapchat, all right? It's Instagram, okay? It's gonna be that way forever. But Lauryn, I loved it today. Thank you for joining me. Everyone here, I hope you picked up nuggets. I hope you take action. I hope you truly commit to living your best life. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team   Dr. Lauryn B (43:37) This jam. Yeah.  

HAPPY EIGHT YEARS OF HEAVING BOSOMS, HBs!!!! It's our 8th podiversary episode and WE! ARE! PUMPED! We also have someone special to introduce to you! Then we've got successes, things to improve, lessons learned, HB Authors, and Hard Limits Watch!! Get excited! This Friday on Patreon and our Apple Podcast subscription, Sabrina is telling us all about their most recent EJ Russell rabbit hole! They were on the lookout for less common monster romance and couldn't stop once they found EJ's cozy MM monster romance. Be sure to check out our AMAZING episode sponsor: THE SPITE DATE by Pippa Grant! The Spite Date is a riotously fun opposites attract romance featuring a golden retriever celebrity who needs to get out of his own way, a woman trying to live her best life even if she's not sure exactly how to do that, and a series of plans gone very, very wrong. It stands alone and comes with a sweetly satisfying happily ever after. Curious about the ridiculous faces we make? Subscribe and watch us on YOUTUBE! Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms | Tiktok @heaving_bosoms | Bluesky: @heavingbosoms.com | Threads: @heavingbosoms   Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, Gary Jenkins, a former KCPD Intelligence Detective, is joined by Lydia Jean Kott (LJ), a producer at Pushkin Industries, the company founded by Malcolm Gladwell. LJ brings us inside the making of Chinatown Sting, a gripping new podcast that uncovers the fascinating and little-known story of Chinese organized crime, China White heroin, and characters like Machinegun Johnny in New York's Chinatown during the 1980s. LJ explains how her interest in the case was sparked by a personal connection—her boyfriend's mother was a federal prosecutor involved in the original sting. That legendary case centered on heroin smuggled from Hong Kong into Chinatown, hidden in packages and distributed through a network of mahjong-playing mothers. What began with a flagged parcel at the post office unraveled into a high-stakes undercover investigation. We explore how law enforcement managed to penetrate this tight-knit immigrant community, the risks taken by prosecutors like Beryl Howell, and the difficult moral choices faced by those caught in the middle—including a woman forced to choose between betraying a friend or saving herself. LJ also delves into the history of Chinatowns in America, where family associations and Tongs—formed initially as mutual aid societies—became intertwined with the vice industry. She connects this legacy to gangs like the Flying Dragons and their ties back to organized crime in Hong Kong.   Our discussion is not just about drugs, gangs, and federal stings—it's about storytelling, community, and the pursuit of survival. LJ shares how she and her co-reporter pieced the story together over the course of years of interviews and archival research, giving voice to people often overlooked in the larger mob narrative.   If you're fascinated by organized crime, hidden histories, or the way law enforcement takes on international networks, Chinatown Sting is a podcast you won't want to miss. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app.   Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, the documentary, click here.  xx Gary Jenkins : [00:00:00] Hey, welcome all you wire tappers. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. You know, I'm a retired Kansas City police intelligence unit detective turned podcaster. Gary Jenkins : I did a few other things in between, but this is the love of my life here, guys. And I was just talking with our guests that I don't do this for the money, but I do it for fun and, and it is a lot of fun and, and I can tell my guests today. Does it to earn a living, but she does it a lot for fun. She really is into it. Gary Jenkins : So it's Lydia Jean Kott, or we call her lj. Welcome. Lj, L.J. : thank you so much. I'm a huge fan of the show and it's an honor to get to be on it and to get to talk to you. Gary Jenkins : Well, cool. Thank you for that compliment. I really appreciate that. Kind of makes it worthwhile keeping coming back. I get those nice comments on my YouTube channel quite a little bit. Gary Jenkins : That kinda keeps me coming back when I get down a little bit. Anyhow first of all, you're. You're with something called Pushkin, P-U-S-H-K-I-N, which is a Malcolm Gladwell company. I think he started it and had [00:01:00] the first podcast early in the days. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm like one of the earliest I am the earliest Mafia podcast. Gary Jenkins : I think that ever first one had ever started, I believe long before. When did you start? Oh, . 2015, I believe. L.J. : Okay. Yeah. Early, early podcast days, Gary Jenkins : early podcast. I listened to Serial and I thought, man, I think I could do that and tell police stories. Gary Jenkins: Yeah.

Send me a one-way text about this episode! I'll give you a shout out or answer your question on a future episode.Today, I am beginning a series of Monday Motivations all about Making Room for the Holidays. Over the next four weeks I will give you ideas for making room in your home, your budget, your schedule and your heart. I know it's only October, and I promise not to play Christmas music, but if we wait until December to make room in our space, finances, calendars and ourselves, we will likely become overwhelmed and default to survival mode. My aim for this series is to give you ideas and tools to make room for not just surviving, but thriving in and truly enjoying the holiday season. NOTES & LINKSFor full show notes and the  FREE Making Room in Your Home Check List visit theartofhomepodcast.com/blog and search "MM#35"Support the showHOMEMAKING RESOURCES Private Facebook Group, Homemaker Forum Newsletter Archive JR Miller's Homemaking Study Guide SUPPORT & CONNECT Review | Love The Podcast Contact | Voicemail |Instagram | Facebook | Website | Email Follow | Follow The Podcast Support | theartofhomepodcast.com/support Buy | as an Amazon affiliate, AoH receives a small commission at no extra cost to you when you use our links to purchase items we recommend

#Bàigiảng của Lm #IgnatioHồVănXuân trong thánh lễ KTT Đức Mẹ Mân Côi, cử hành lúc 17:30 ngày 4-10-2025 tại Nhà thờ Chính Tòa Đức Bà #TGPSG

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we have a coaching call with Laurel and Derrick. This call is such a good one because we cover ALL the big ideas behind the peaceful parenting approach, while applying them to real life scenarios in a home with three kids. Topics include sibling rivalry, nurturing our kids, self regulation, how to handle kids asking lots of questions and always wanting more, what parenting without punishment looks like, and more!**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:00 What it looks like when our children truly respect us* 9:00 7-year-old refusing to get dressed* 12:10 Why it is okay baby and nurture our kids* 14:00 Tuning into our own self regulation* 18:00 Mindset shifts to give our kids the benefit of the doubt* 19:30 How to handle sibling rivalry* 24:00 Don't try to make it a teachable moment* 38:00 When kids ask questions over and over* 41:00 Why kids always want more!* 45:00 Helping kids see how their actions affect other people* 55:00 Why kids lie and what to do* 57:00 Natural consequences, boundaries, and limits* 1:02 Peaceful Parenting MantrasResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Free Stop Sibling Fights E book* Free How To Stop Yelling at Your Kids e-coursexx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Derrick: Hi, good morning.Sarah: Hi Derek. Nice to meet you. Hi Laurel. Hi. Are you a firefighter, Derek? I'm—yeah, I'm actually—I see you've got your sweatshirt.Derrick: Yeah. Just a heads up, I may have to jump off if we get a call.Sarah: Okay. Well, so nice to meet you guys. So you've got three—boy, girl, girl. And what would you like to talk about today?Laurel: I think I just love your whole—I've sent Derek a couple things—but I just love your whole premise of peacefulness and remaining calm when it's easy to get angry. Mm-hmm. And just some tools for doing that. I guess like some basic things, because we would both like to say where, you know, we have like, you know, the streaks where we're all calm, calm, calm, and then just—and then her, yeah, limit. Yeah.And so yeah, just tools for when that happens. We have very typical age-appropriate kind of response kids, mm-hmm, that need to be told 80 times something. And so it's frustrating. And then how to help them kind of see—without bribing, without threatening discipline, without all of that. Yeah. Like how to have a better dialogue with our kids of teaching respect and teaching kind of “we do this, you do this.”Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Okay. So there's always gonna be situations where it's hard to stay calm, you know? Just being a parent—like of course your kids are gonna push your buttons sometimes. But rather than—so, we do always start with self-regulation.And what I mean by self-regulation isn't that you never get upset. It's that when you do get upset, you know how to calm yourself and take a minute, take a breath—whatever you need to do—so that you don't yell. Because yelling hurts our relationship with our kids. You mentioned respect. I think there's an old idea of respect that used to mean that kids were afraid of their parents, right?But real respect is that you care what another person thinks. Like, that's real respect. I don't want to do this because I don't want my dad or my mom to be unhappy with me—not that I'm afraid of what's gonna happen if I do it, but I care what they think and they care what I think. And that's how I define respect. True respect doesn't mean that you're afraid of somebody; it means that you care what they think, right?So when we yell, we chip away at that. Like yeah, we could get them to do what we want through yelling or threatening things or taking things away, but we're chipping away at our relationship with them. And that's really the only true influence.And as your kids are getting older, you're gonna see that you can control them when they're little, right? Because you can pick them up and move them from one place to another or whatever. But there's a famous quote by a psychologist that says, “The problem with using control when kids are young is that you never learn how to influence them, which is what you need as they get older.” Right? You need to be able to influence them, to get them to do what you would like them to do. And it's all about the relationship. That's really what I see as the most important thing.So back to what I was saying about yelling—yes, that's really important to be working on—but there's also: how do I be more effective so the kids will listen to me and I don't have to ask 80 times? How do I get their attention in an effective way? How do I get them to cooperate the first time or at least the second time?So it's a combination of learning how to calm yourself and stay calm when things are hard, and also being more effective as a parent—not asking 25 times, because that just trains them to ignore you. Like, “Oh, I don't have to do it until they yell,” or “I don't have to do it until they've asked me 25 times.”If there's something really unpleasant you had to do at work that you didn't want to do, you might also ignore your boss the first 24 times they asked you until you knew they were really serious, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, you wouldn't, but you know what I mean. If they can keep playing a little bit longer, they will keep playing a little bit longer.So I think what would be helpful is if you gave me some situations that have happened that you find challenging, and then we can do a little bit of a deeper dive into what you could have done instead, or what you could do next time if a similar thing comes up.Laurel: Yeah. I mean, for my daughter, for example, the middle one—she's so sweet, she's such a feeler—but then when she gets to the point where she's tired, hungry, it's all the things. She often doesn't wanna pick out her clothes. Something super simple like that.But when I'm making lunches and the other kids are getting ready and all the things, I just have to have her—I'm like, “You're seven, you can pick out clothes.” I give her some options, and then she'll just lay on the floor and start screaming, “You don't care! Why don't you pick out my clothes?”And then instead of me taking the time that I know I need to, I just tell her, “You have one minute or else this—so you lose this.” I just start kind of like, “This is yesterday.” You know, so she doesn't wanna get dressed, doesn't wanna get her shoes on. “You get my socks, you get all the big—” And then I end up picking her up, standing her up, “You need to get dressed.” And then both of us are frustrated.Sarah: Yeah. No, that's a great example.So first of all, whenever there's difficult behavior in our child, we try to look below the surface to see what's causing it. The symptom you see on the outside is a kid lying on the floor refusing to do something she's perfectly capable of doing herself. That's the iceberg part above the water. But what's underneath that?To me, I'm seeing a 7-year-old who has a 3-year-old sibling who probably does get help getting dressed, a capable older brother, and it's hard to give enough attention to three kids. What I see this as is a bid for attention and connection from you.I don't know if you listen to my podcast, but I did an episode about when kids ask you to do things for them that they can do themselves. Seven is a perfect age because you're like, “Oh my God, you're so capable of getting dressed yourself—what do you mean you want me to put your shoes on you?” But if you can shift your mind to think, Ah, she's asking me to do something she can do—she needs my connection and nurturing.So what if you thought, “Okay, I just spent all this energy yelling at her, trying to get her to do it. What if I just gave her the gift of picking her clothes out for her and getting her dressed?” It would probably be quicker, start your day on a happier note, and you would have met that need for connection.And yes, it's asking more of you in the moment, because you're trying to make lunches. But this is a beautiful example because you'll probably see it in other areas too—what's underneath this difficult behavior? Kids really are doing the best they can. That's one of our foundational paradigm shifts in peaceful parenting. Even when they're being difficult, they're doing the best they can with the resources they have in that moment.So when someone's being difficult, you can train yourself to think: Okay, if they're doing the best they can, what's going on underneath that's causing this behavior?I just want to say one more thing, because later on you might think, “Wait—Sarah's telling me to dress my 7-year-old. What about independence?” Just to put your fears aside: kids have such a strong natural drive for independence that you can baby them a little bit and it won't wreck them. Everybody needs a little babying sometimes—even you guys probably sometimes. Sometimes you just want Laurel to make you a coffee and bring it to you in bed. You can get your own coffee, but it's nice to be babied and nurtured.So we can do that safely. And I tell you, I have a 14-year-old, 17-year-old, and 20-year-old—very babied—and they're all super independent and competent kids. My husband used to say, “You're coddling them.” I'd say, “I'm nurturing them.”Laurel: Oh, I like that.Sarah: Okay. So I just wanted to say that in case the thought comes up later. Independence is important, but we don't have to push for it.Derrick: Yeah. No, I think that's super helpful. And I love—one of my good buddies just came out with a book called The Thing Beneath the Thing.Sarah: Oh, I love that.Derrick: It's such a good reminder. I think sometimes, like you addressed, Laurel is often a single mom and there is the reality of—she's gotta make lunch, she's gotta do laundry, she's gotta whatever. And sometimes there's just the logistical impossibility of, “I can't do that and this and get out the door in time and get you to camp on time, and here comes the carpool.”And so sometimes it just feels like there needs to be better planning. Like, “You just gotta wake up earlier, you gotta make lunch before you go to bed, or whatever,” to have the space to respond to the moment. Because the reality is, you never know when it's coming.Like, totally independent, and she wants to pick out her own clothes in one example—but then all these things creep up.Another way to describe what Laurel and I were talking about in terms of triggers is: I feel like we both really take a long time to light our fuse. But once it's lit, it's a very short fuse.Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Derrick: So it's like for me especially, I'm cool as a cucumber and then all of a sudden the wick is lit and I'll explode.Sarah: Yeah. I think that's really good to be aware of. The thing is, if you go forward from today and start looking—you're calm, calm, calm, calm, calm—sometimes what's actually happening is what my mentor calls gathering kindling.We don't realize it, but we're gathering kindling along the way—resentment, eye-roll frustration. If you can start tuning in a little bit, you'll see that yeah, you're not yelling, but maybe you're getting more frustrated as it goes on. That's when you can intervene with yourself, like, “Okay, I need to take a five-minute break,” or, “We need to shift gears or tap each other out.”Because it feels like it comes out of nowhere, but it rarely does. We're just not aware of the building process of gathering kindling along the way.Derrick: Yeah. No, that's helpful. I have two examples that maybe you can help us with. You can pick one that you think is more important.Sarah: Sure. And I just want to comment on one more thing you said before you go on—sorry to interrupt you. If it's annoying to have to dress a 7-year-old in the middle of your morning routine, you can also make a mental note: Okay, what's under the thing? What's under the difficult behavior is this need for more connection and nurturing. So how can I fill that at a time that's more convenient for me?Maybe 7:30 in the morning while I'm trying to get everyone out the door is not a convenient time. But how can I find another time in the day, especially for my middle child? I've got three kids too, and I know the middle child can be a bit of a stirring-the-pot kid, at least mine was when he was little, trying to get his needs met. So how can I make sure I'm giving her that time she's asking for, but in more appropriate times?Derrick: Yeah, no, that's helpful. I think part of my challenge is just understanding what is age-appropriate. For example, our almost 10-year-old literally cannot remember to flush the toilet.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Derrick: And it's like, “Bro, flush the toilet.” It's been this ongoing thing. That's just one example. There are many things where you're going, “You're 10 years old, dude, you should know how to flush the toilet.” And then all the fears come in—“Is he ADD?”—and we start throwing things out there we don't even know.But it seems so simple: poop in the toilet, you flush it when you're done. Why is that? And that'll light a wick pretty quick, the third or fourth time you go in and the toilet's not flushed.Sarah: Yeah.Derrick: And then you talk about it very peacefully, and he'll throw something back at you.Sarah: So do you have him go back and flush the toilet?Derrick: We do.Sarah: Okay, good. Because if you make it a tiny bit unpleasant that he forgot—like he has to stop what he's doing and go back and flush it—that might help him in a kind and firm way. Like, “Oh, looks like you forgot. Pause your video game. Please go back and flush the toilet.”Also, maybe put up some signs or something. By the sink, by the toilet paper. There are just some things that, if they're not important to kids, it's very hard for them to remember. Or if it's not…I can't tell you how many times I've told my boys, “Don't put wet things in the hamper.” They're 17 and 20 and it drives me insane. Like how hard is it to not throw a wet washcloth in the hamper? They don't care if it smells like mildew.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: It's very frustrating. But they're not doing it on purpose.Derrick: That's the narrative we write though, right? Like, you're just defiant, you're trying—because we've talked about this a million times. This is my desire.Sarah: And you feel disrespecedt.Derrick: Right.Sarah: That is so insightful of you, Derek, to realize that. To realize that's a trigger for you because it feels like he's doing it on purpose to disrespect you. But having that awareness and a mindset shift—he's not trying to give me a hard time. He's just absent-minded, he's 10, and he doesn't care if the poop sits in the toilet. He's just not thinking about it.Derrick: Yeah.I think the other example, which I'm sure is super common, is just: how do you manage them pushing each other's buttons? They can do it so quickly. And then it's literally musical chairs of explosive reactions. It happens everywhere. You're driving in the car, button pushed, explosion. The 3-year-old's melting, and Kira knows exactly what she's doing. Then Blake, then Kira. They just know. They get so much joy out of watching their sibling melt and scream. Meanwhile, you're in the front seat trying to drive and it's chaos.For me, that's when I'll blow my top. I'll get louder than their meltdown. And my narrative is: they're not even really upset, they're just turning it on to get whatever they want.Sarah: Classic sibling rivalry. Classic. Like, “How can I get Mom or Dad to show that they love me more than the other kid? Whose side are they gonna intervene on?” That's so classic.Kira came along and pushed Blake out of his preferred position as the baby and the apple of your eye. He had to learn to share you. Is it mostly Kira and Aubrey, or does everything roll downhill with all three?Derrick: It just triangulates and crosses over. They know each other's buttons. And you're right—it's always, “You always take her side. You never—”Sarah: Yes. And whenever you hear the words “always” and “never,” you know someone's triggered. They're not thinking clearly because they're upset and dysregulated.Sibling rivalry, or resentment, whatever you want to call it, is always about: “Who do they love more? Will my needs get met? Do they love me as much as my brother or sister?” That fear is what drives the button-pushing.It doesn't make sense that you'd pick a fight hoping your parent will choose you as the one who's right. But still, it's this drive to create conflict in hopes that you'll be the chosen one.So I could go over my sibling best practices with you guys if you want. That's really helpful for rivalry.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: Okay. Do you currently have any rules about property or sharing in your house?Laurel: Not officially. I mean—Derrick: We typically will say stuff like, “That's Kira's. If she doesn't want to share it with you, give it back.” But the problem is we have so much community property.Sarah: Okay. That's what I call it: community property. Yeah. So you're doing exactly the right thing with things that belong to one person. They never have to share it if they don't want to, and other people have to ask before they touch it. Perfect.And in terms of community property, I'd suggest you have a rule: somebody gets to use something until they're done. Period. Long turns.I didn't know this when my kids were little, and I had ridiculous song-and-dance with timers—“Okay, you can have it for 10 minutes and then you can have it for 10 minutes.” But that actually increases anxiety. You want to relax into your play, not feel like, “Oh, I've only got this for 10 minutes.”So if it belongs to everyone, the person using it gets to use it as long as they want. And you empathize with the other person: “Oh, I know your brother's been playing with that pogo stick for an hour. It's so hard to wait, isn't it? When it's your turn, you'll have it as long as you want.”So if you have good sharing rules and community property rules right off the bat, you take away a lot of opportunities for resentment to build upDerrick: My biggest question is just how do you intervene when those rules are violated?Sarah: You just calmly say something like, “Oh, I know you really, really wanna play with the pogo stick. You cannot push your brother off of it just because you want a turn.” I'm just making things up here, but the idea is: you can't push your brother off just because you want something. Then you go back to the family rules. You could even make a sign—I actually have one I can send you to print out—that says, “In our family, we get to use it as long as we want.”And then you empathize with the aggressor about how hard it is to wait. Keep going back to the rules and offering lots of empathy. If someone's being difficult, recognize that they're having a hard time.Laurel, when Derrick said, “You always…” or “You never…,” anytime you hear words like that, you know somebody's hijacked by big feelings. That's not the time to make it a teachable moment. Just empathize with the hard time they're having. Nobody ever wants to calm down until they feel empathized with, acknowledged, and heard. You can always talk about it later if something needs to be discussed, but in the moment of heightened tension, just acknowledge feelings: “Oh my goodness, you were doing this thing and then your brother came and took it. This is so hard.”I also have a little ebook with these best practices laid out—I'll send it to you.The third best practice is: always be the moderator, not the negotiator. If there's a fight between the kids, your goal is to help them talk to each other. Don't try to solve it or say who's right or wrong. Even if you're right and careful not to favor one child, your solution will always fuel sibling rivalry. The child who wasn't chosen feels slighted, and the one who was chosen might think, “Dad loves me best.”So my phrase is: “Be Switzerland.” Stay neutral, intervene in a neutral way, and help them talk to each other. Give each child a chance to speak. Do you want to give me an example we can walk through?Derrick: A lot of times it's not even about taking, it's about disrupting. Aubrey has this baby doll she's obsessed with. She carries it everywhere—it looks really real, kind of creepy. Blake will walk by, pull the pacifier out of its mouth, and throw it across the room. Instant meltdown. His thing is, he knows the rules and how to toe the line. He'll say, “I didn't take the baby, I just disrupted it.”Sarah: Right, right.Derrick: And then, “Deal with it.”Sarah: Yeah, okay. So that's not exactly a “be Switzerland” moment, because it's not a two-way fight. He's just provoking his sister to get a rise out of her. That's classic sibling rivalry. It also sounds like he worries you don't love him as much as his sisters. Does he ever say that out loud?Laurel: He has sometimes. His other big thing is he doesn't have a brother, but they have each other. He constantly brings that up.Sarah: That's what I call a chip on his shoulder. When he provokes her like that, it's because he has feelings inside that make him act out. He's not a bad kid; he's having a hard time. Picking fights is often an attempt to get rid of difficult feelings. If we have a bad day and don't process it, we might come home cranky or pick a fight—it's not about the other person, it's about us.So I'd suggest having some heart-to-hearts with Blake, maybe at bedtime. Give him space to process. Say, “It must be really hard to have two little sisters and be the only boy. I bet you wish you had a brother.” Or, “I wonder if it's hard to share me and mom with your sisters. I wonder if it's hard being the oldest.” Share your own stories: “I remember when I was growing up, it was hard to be the big sister.” Or Derrick, you could share what it was like for your older sibling.The same goes for Kira: “It must be hard being in the middle—your big brother gets to do things you can't, and your little sister gets babied more.” The point is to let them express their feelings so they don't have to act them out by provoking.That provocative behavior is just difficult feelings looking for a way out. Your role is to open the door for those feelings. Say things like, “I know this must be hard. I hear you. You can always talk to me about your feelings. All your feelings are okay with me.” And you have to mean it—even if they say things like, “I wish they didn't exist,” or, “I wish you never had that baby.” That's totally normal. Don't be afraid of it. Resist the urge to offer silver linings like, “But sometimes you play so well together.” It's not time for optimism—it's time for listening and acknowledging.You can also say, “I'm sorry if I ever did anything that made you feel like I didn't love you as much as your sisters. I couldn't love anyone more than I love you.” You can say that to each child without lying, because it's true. That reassurance goes to the root of sibling rivalry.Derrick: That's really helpful. I'd love your insight on some of the things we're already doing. Lately, I've realized I spend more time in the girls' room at bedtime. Blake has his own room. He's more self-sufficient—he can read and put himself to sleep. For the past year, I've been reading in the girls' room instead, since they need more wrangling. So I've tried to switch that and spend more time in Blake's room reading with him. We've also started doing “mom dates” or “dad dates” with each kid.Sarah: That's perfect! My final best practice is one-on-one time. You're on the right track. It doesn't have to be a “date.” Special Time is 15 minutes a day with each child, right at home. You don't need to go to the aquarium or spend money. Just say, “I'm all yours for the next 15 minutes—what do you want to play?” Try to keep it play-centered and without screens.Laurel: Sometimes when we call it a “mommy date,” it turns into something big. That makes it hard to do consistently.Sarah: Exactly. You can still do those, but Special Time is smaller and daily. Fifteen minutes is manageable. With little ones, you might need to get creative—for example, one parent watches two kids while the other has Special Time with the third. You could even “hire” Blake to watch Aubrey for a few minutes so you can have time with Kira.Laurel: That makes sense. I did think of an example, though. What frustrates me most isn't sharing, but when they're unkind to each other. I harp on them about family sticking together and being kind. For example, last week at surf camp, both kids had zinc on their faces—Blake was orange, Kira was purple. She was so excited and bubbly that morning, which is unusual for her. In front of neighbor friends, Blake made fun of her purple face. It devastated her. I laid into him, telling him he's her protector and needs to be kind. I don't want to be too hard on him, but I also want him to understand.Sarah: Based on everything we've talked about, you can see how coming down hard on him might make him feel bad about himself and worry that you don't love him—fueling even more resentment. At the same time, of course we don't want siblings hurting each other's feelings. This is where empathic limits come in.You set the limit—“It's not okay to tease your sister because it hurts her feelings”—but you lead with his perspective. You might say, “Hey, I know people with color on their faces can look funny, and maybe you thought it was just a joke. At the same time, that really made your sister feel bad.” That way, you correct him without making him feel like a bad kid.Do you think he was trying to be funny, or was he trying to hurt her?Laurel: I think he was. He'll also reveal secrets or crushes in front of friends—he knows it's ammo.Sarah: Right. In that situation, I'd first empathize with Kira: “I'm so sorry your brother said that—it never feels good to be laughed at.” Then privately with Blake: “What's going on with you that you wanted to make your sister feel bad?” Come at it with curiosity, assuming he's doing the best he can. If he says, “I was just joking,” you can respond, “We need to be more careful with our jokes so they're not at anyone's expense.” That's correcting without shaming.Laurel: I love that. Sometimes I'm trying to say that, but not in a peaceful way, so he can't receive it. Then he asks, “Am I a bad kid?” and I have to backtrack.Sarah: Exactly—skip the part that makes him feel like a bad kid. Sensitive kids don't need much correction—they already feel things deeply. Just get curious.Laurel: That makes sense. Correcting without shaming.Sarah: Yes.Laurel: We also tried something new because of the constant questions. They'll keep asking: “Can I do this? Can I watch a show?” We got tired of repeating no. So now we say, “I don't know yet. Let me think about it. But if you ask again, the answer will be no.” Is that okay?Sarah: I used to say, “If I have to give a quick answer, it's going to be no.” I'd also say, “You can ask me as many times as you want, but the answer will still be no.” With empathy: “I know it's hard to hear no, but it's still no.” Another thing I said was, “It would be so much easier for me to say yes. But I love you enough to say no.” That helped my kids see it wasn't easy for me either.Laurel: That's helpful. Another thing: our kids do so much—they're busy and around people a lot, partly because of our personalities and being pastors. We try to build in downtime at home, but often after a fun day they complain on the way home: “Why do we have to go to bed?” They don't reflect on the fun—they just want more.Sarah: That's totally normal. You could go to an amusement park, eat pizza and ice cream, see a movie, and if you say no to one more thing, they'll say, “We never do anything fun!” Kids are wired to want more. That's evolutionary: quiet kids who didn't ask for needs wouldn't survive. Wanting isn't a problem, and it doesn't mean they'll turn into entitled adults.Kids live in the moment. If you say no to ice cream, they fixate on that, not the whole day. So stay in the moment with them: “You really wanted ice cream. I know it's disappointing we're not having it.” Resist the urge to say, “But we already did all these things.”Laurel: I love that. We even started singing “Never Enough” from The Greatest Showman, and now they hate it. It feels like nothing is ever enough.Sarah: That's normal.Laurel: I also want to bring it back to peaceful, no-fear parenting. I can be hard on myself, and I see that in my kids. I don't want that.Sarah: If you don't want your kids to be hard on themselves, model grace for yourself. Say, “I messed up, but I'm still worthy and lovable.” Being hard on yourself means you only feel lovable when you don't make mistakes. We want our kids to know they're lovable no matter what—even when they mess up or bother their siblings. That's true self-worth: being lovable because of who you are, not what you do. That's what gives kids the courage to take risks and not stay small out of fear of failure. They'll learn that from your modeling.Laurel: That makes sense.Sarah: And I've never, ever seen anyone do this work without being compassionate with themselves.Laurel: Hmm. Like—Sarah: You can't beat yourself up and be a peaceful parent.Laurel: Yeah, I know. Because then I'd see them doing it. It's like, no, I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I purposely don't want you guys to be that way. Yeah. That's great. Those are all good things to think about. I think the other questions I can tie back to what you've already answered, like being disrespectful or sassiness creeping in—the talking back kind of stuff. And that's all from, I mean, it stems from not feeling heard, not feeling empathized with.Sarah: Totally. And being hijacked by big feelings—even if it's your own big feelings of not getting what you want. That can be overwhelming and send them into fight, flight, or freeze. Sassiness and backtalk is the fight response. It's the mild fight. They're not screaming, hitting, or kicking, but just using rude talk.Laurel: Hmm. And so same response as a parent with that too? Just be in the moment with their feelings and then move on to talking about why and letting them kind of—Sarah: Yeah. And empathizing. Just like, “Ah, you're really…” Say they're saucy about you not letting them have some ice cream. “You never let me have ice cream! This is so unfair! You're so mean!” Whatever they might say. You can respond, “Ugh, I know, it's so hard. You wish you could have all the ice cream in the freezer. You'd eat the whole carton if you could.” Just recognize what they're feeling. It doesn't have to be a teachable moment about sugar or health. You can just be with them in their hard time about not getting what they want. And they'll get through to the other side—which builds resilience.Laurel: How do you discipline when it's needed—not punish, but discipline? For example, a deliberate rule is broken, somebody gets hurt, or stealing—like when it's clear they know it was wrong?Sarah: You want to help them see how their actions affect other people, property, or the community. That's where they internalize right and wrong. If you give them a punishment for breaking something, that only teaches them how their actions affect them—not how their actions affect others. That makes kids think, “What's in it for me? I better not do this thing because I don't want to get in trouble,” instead of, “I better not do this because it will hurt my sister or disappoint my parents.” So punishments and imposed consequences pull kids away from the real consequences—like someone getting hurt or trust being broken.You really want to help them understand: “The reason why we have this rule is because of X, Y, Z. And when you did this, here's what happened.” If they have a problem with the rule, talk about it together as a family. That works much better than punishment.Laurel: We had an incident at church where our 10-year-old was talking about something inappropriate with another kid. The other parent reached out, and I feel like we handled it okay. We talked with him, he was open, and we discussed what was said. Then we apologized to that parent in person and had a conversation. It didn't feel like we were forcing him to do something bad or shaming him.Sarah: That's good—it's about making a repair. That's always the focus. Without knowing the whole situation, I might not have said apologizing to the parent, because technically the parent wasn't directly involved. But if your son was willing and it felt authentic, that's great. What matters is the outcome: repair. Sometimes parents suggest an apology to make the child feel ashamed so they'll “remember it,” but that's not helpful. The question is: does the apology or repair actually improve the situation? That's what you keep in mind.Laurel: Well, thanks for all your wisdom.Sarah: You're welcome. It was really nice to meet you both.Part 2:Sarah: Welcome back, Laurel and Derek. Thanks for joining again. How have things been since our first coaching call?Laurel: Yeah. I feel like we gained several really good nuggets that we were able to try. One of them was about my daughter in the mornings—not wanting to get dressed, feeling stuck in the middle and left out. I've gotten to stop what I'm doing and pay attention to her. Even this morning, she still had a meltdown, but things went faster by the end compared to me being stubborn and telling her to do it on her own.Sarah: So you dropped your end of the power struggle.Laurel: Yeah. And it felt great because I wasn't frustrated afterward. I could move on right away instead of also blowing up. If we both blow up, it's bad. But if she's the only one, she can snap out of it quickly. I can't as easily, so it usually lingers for me. This way, it was so much better.We've had some challenging parenting moments this week, but looking at them through the lens of making our kids feel worthy and loved helped us respond differently. One thing you said last time—that “the perpetrator needs empathy”—really stuck with me. I always felt like the misbehaving child should feel our wrath to show how serious it was. But we were able to love our kids through a couple of tough situations, and it worked.Derrick: For me, the biggest takeaway was the “kindling” metaphor. I've even shared it with friends. Before, I thought I was being patient, but I was just collecting kindling until I blew up. Now I recognize the kindling and set it down—take a breath, or tell the kids I need a minute. This morning on the way to soccer, I told them I needed a little pity party in the front seat before I could play their game. That helped me calm before reengaging.Sarah: That's fantastic. You recognized you needed to calm yourself before jumping back in, instead of pushing through already-annoyed feelings.Laurel: Yeah. We did have questions moving forward. We had a couple of situations where we knew our kids were lying about something significant. We told them, “We love you, and we need you to tell the truth.” But they denied it for days before finally giving in. How do we encourage truth-telling and open communication?Sarah: Kids usually lie for three reasons: they're afraid of getting in trouble, they feel ashamed or embarrassed, or they're afraid of disappointing you. Sometimes it's all three. So the focus has to be: we might be unhappy with what you did, but we'll just work on fixing it. When they do admit the truth, it's important to say, “I'm so glad you told me.” That helps remove shame.Natural consequences happen without your involvement. If they take money from your wallet, the natural consequence is that you're missing money and trust is broken. But adding punishments just teaches them to hide better next time.Derrick: How do you frame the difference between a consequence and a boundary? Like if they mess up in an environment and we don't let them back into it for a while—is that a consequence or a boundary?Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about limits. If they show they're not ready for a certain freedom, you set a limit to support them—not to punish. A consequence is meant to make them feel bad so they won't repeat it. A limit is about guidance and support.The way to tell: check your tone and your intent. If you're angry and reactive, it will feel punishing even if it's not meant to be. And if your intent is to make them suffer, that's a punishment. If your tone is empathetic and your intent is to support expectations, it's a limit.Derrick: That's helpful. Sometimes we beat ourselves up wondering if we're punishing when we're just setting limits. Your tone-and-intent framework is a good check.Sarah: And if you mess up in the moment, you can always walk it back. Say, “I was really angry when I said that. Let's rethink this.” That models responsibility for when we act out while triggered.Derrick: That's good.Sarah: You mentioned sibling rivalry last time. Did you try the “It's theirs until they're done with it” approach?Derrick: Yes—and it's like a miracle. It worked especially in the car.Sarah: That's great. I know car rides were tricky before.Laurel: What about mantras to help us remember not to let our kids' behavior define us as parents—or as people?Sarah: What you're talking about is shame. It's when we feel unworthy because of our kids' behavior or what others think. We have to separate our worth from our kids' actions. Even if your child is struggling, you're still a good, worthy, lovable person.Laurel: Almost the same thing we say to our kids: “You are worthy and lovable.”Sarah: Exactly. So when you feel yourself going into a shame spiral, remind yourself: “Even though my child did this thing, I am still worthy and lovable.” Hold both truths together.Laurel: Yes. That helps. One last question: mornings. School starts in a day, and we worry every morning will be a struggle with Kira. She resists everything—getting dressed, socks, breakfast. Then she's fine once we're in the car. How can we help her set her own boundaries about mornings?Sarah: It sounds like she gets anxious around transitions. She doesn't do well with being hurried. That anxiety overwhelms her, and she goes into fight mode—pushing back, lashing out.Laurel: Yes, that's exactly it.Sarah: So part of it is adjusting your routine—giving her more time in the morning. But another part is building resilience. The anti-anxiety phrase is: “We can handle this.” Remind her, “Even if it's not going how you wanted, you can handle it. We can do hard things.” Add in laughter to ease tension.And maybe accept that for now, you might need to spend 10 minutes helping her get dressed. That's okay. You can balance it by giving her extra nurturing at other times of the day so she doesn't seek it as much during rushed mornings.Derrick: That's good.Sarah: Thank you both so much. I've loved these conversations.Derrick: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: You're welcome. It's been wonderful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Kiera is joined by Dr. Lauryn Brunclik (of She Slays the Day podcast fame) to take a good hard look at clinician burnout, different sides of the working mindset coin, generational styles of work, and so much more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I am so excited about our guest that's going to be on the podcast with me today. She is incredible. We're going to be talking about all things burnout, how to avoid it, how to just like live your best life. And so I have Dr. Lauryn Brunclik. She's an entrepreneur, chiropractor, business coach, podcast host, wife, mother, and sought-after speaker known for her high energy. You guys know that this is why I like her. mean, we're birds of the same feather, straightforward attitude and ability to make people laugh while discovering their truth.   In 2010, she founded Blue Hills Chiropractic building into a thriving seven figure practice. But after years of relentless hustle, she found herself overworked, tied to her clinic and craving more freedom. Dentist, can you relate? Now you see why I brought her on here. Now you can see why I want her here. ⁓ she truly is very similar to all of you out there. She was determined to create a business that worked for her, not the other way around. Lauryn built multiple revenue streams, streamlined her operations and reclaimed her time without sacrificing income.   She took that passion and launched She Slays the Day, a podcast helping professionals and clinic owners break free from burnout by creating multiple revenue streams, recleaning time and building financial and lifestyle freedom. So welcome to the show, Lauryn. How are you today?   Dr. Lauryn B (01:07) Thank you. As you   were reading that is so funny because like in this world of virtual assistants and AI, I'm always like, what bio is she reading? And I'm like kind of holding my breath like, ⁓ and I'm like, okay, yep, that's true. That's true. this is good. I did really get sad and burnt up. It's like, I just went on a journey with you while you're reading my bio.   Kiera Dent (01:25) Usually both.   You and me both. was on a podcast the other day and I had the exact same feeling because they were reading my bio and I was like, huh, I'm super curious. Like which bio did you get? And wow, yeah, like I did just get to go down memory lane. but   Dr. Lauryn B (01:40) You're   like, that's a good bio. Good job, AI. Good job. Which is like always waiting for like the wrong thing where it's like, no, I didn't do a stint as a clown or anything. No, that's not true. That's not true. So.   Kiera Dent (01:49) Exactly.   I, Shelbi got us connected and I was super excited and you know, I was looking up on it and she's like, here, I think you and Lauryn are going to have the best time on the podcast. She's like, you two are birds of the same feather, the high energy, the tactical, the like we talk about it's like life on purpose and business on purpose and not having it to where it's the other way around. I say all the time, like your business should be working for you, not the other way around. It should be supporting your life. So I'm just super jazzed. So Lauryn.   Dr. Lauryn B (02:04) Mm.   Kiera Dent (02:17) I mean, that was a great bio. agree like kudos to AI, virtual assistant, whomever wrote it for you. Kudos to you for living that actual bio and being the human on the other side of that. So anything else you want to add? I mean, we're here today to chat shop. We're here to ⁓ share with your audience, our audience, and just really collaborate together and talk about some things that you're super passionate about and that I am too.   Dr. Lauryn B (02:22) Right.   Yeah, so I think that one of the things is that, you you kind of address of like, I think you probably typically have more dentists on   of thing and your audience is like, wait, what's happening? So I started as a coach for chiropractors, you   Kiera Dent (02:51) you   Dr. Lauryn B (02:56) this is, I see this a lot of what we do ⁓ as especially high achieving people, you know, we spend a lot of money and time getting this degree. And then we kind of, when we start to get   bored, burnt out, ADHD, whatever it is in our career where there's this kind of a couple years in and you're like, wait, is this on repeat? What we tend to do is we repurpose our current knowledge set. And so it's like, I have this degree in this, so I'm gonna start a podcast for those people, right? And so that was kind of my experience too. She Slays the Day started as a podcast for chiropractors.   But then I started to realize like as we were having these conversations and you you're just networking, you're meeting. And I started to talk to dentists and veterinarians and you know, realizing like, ⁓ you guys deal with the same shit we do? I had an ENT on a private practice, ENT ⁓ on the podcast, on my podcast because I was following him on Instagram because he was hilarious, but I was like.   Kiera Dent (03:51) Yeah.   Dr. Lauryn B (04:02) you're dealing with the same stuff we do. And ultimately, that's kind of where I expanded in 2023 to be more for healthcare providers outside the traditional hospital system, because it's like, none of us learned business. Like, we, while we were doing anatomy and infectious disease and all of this stuff, there were people outside in the college getting like MBAs and entire business degrees.   Kiera Dent (04:18) Exactly.   Dr. Lauryn B (04:31) And we didn't take a single class. we just, there's such this atmosphere of shameful entrepreneurship. What I mean by that is like, especially within chiropractic, and I've talked to vets and dentists as well, that's like, well, if you're not gonna own your own clinic, are you even like really that good? And so there's this forced entrepreneurship in a society where only 10 % of   Kiera Dent (04:54) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (05:01) people truly have the grit and resilience for the shit show that is ⁓ entrepreneurship. But you have like 80 to 90 % of a profession going into it. And so it's just so natural that it's like, we didn't learn this stuff. It's so natural that burnout is such a common thing. So that's where really it's like, I've realized that like, yeah, I promise you that the same stuff we're dealing with, you're dealing with too because I've had these conversations.   Kiera Dent (05:13) Right.   Amen. And it's actually funny, and I didn't mention this prior, but we actually consulted a chiropractic office and we've consulted eye clinics and ⁓ optometrists and we've gone into CPA clinic firms. And I realized business is business is business and healthcare business is very similar. I think we do ⁓ outside of mainstream medicine, which is our chiropractic, our vets, our dentists.   We're not in the hospital setting. We have more of that autonomy to have our own practices and our own businesses and I agree with you. It is a I think I think the memes out there with business ownership are so accurate the ones where you're on a roller coaster and they're like it's the highs and the lows the ones we're like holding on for dear life and you're like giggling and then crying all within a matter of seconds and I'm like that is the role that is the realm and so that's why I really wanted us to collaborate together Lauryn to talk about because   What you see in chiropractic, what I see in dentistry, what we see across the board of these incredible clinicians. like you, go to school, you learn, you, you have all this experience in this knowledge. And like you said, It does not train you to be a business owner. yet also, like you said, it's well, why not? Like, and I think that that is kind of the, it's like for team members, like you want to graduate to be the office manager. You want to be the regional manager. You want to get to that level. Like that's where you like it. There's a ladder ascension. And I think in business ownership and with   Like you wanted to be a chiropractor because you wanted to help people. You wanted to be a dentist because you want to help people. You want to be a vet because you want to help people. You want to be an ENT because you want to help people. But it's, think that there's this unsaid natural ladder that people feel there's a push to go for a business ownership when it's like, but I just want to be a clinician. I just wanted to, to do my craft, but I also wanted to do it my way. And that's where I think the business ownership vibe comes in. But you're right. It's, it's stressful, not having profits, not having   understanding cashflow, not understanding how to run teams. Like awful.   Dr. Lauryn B (07:20) The number of people,   doc, clinic owners that have been in practice for 10 plus years that I am teaching what profit margins are and what is healthy and how to calculate it is astounding. It's like, So, you know, I think that ultimately when you, you know, the different personality types, you know, when they find themselves in practice,   Kiera Dent (07:31) Yes. Yes.   Yes.   Dr. Lauryn B (07:46) I feel like they almost burn out for two completely different reasons. So let's say that you have, know, so 80 % of humans are just more meant to be more like caregivers, supporter roles. I would guess that that's even higher in someone who's called into healthcare, right? That like, they went into this, believe me, if you are about to decide what you should do with your life and you are like, I'm an entrepreneur and I wanna be.   Kiera Dent (08:05) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (08:15) rich. Do not go into chiropractic. Do not go into dentistry. There is so much easier ways to make money. like 99 point whatever percent of people are called to this profession in healthcare because they want to serve. So let's say you start your clinic. There's a good chance you're going to burn out from one of two reasons. One, you don't want to run a clinic. You truly   And that's what's burning you out, is that you're just like, I am here for the patients. I want to pour into the patients and I want to serve and I want to do that. But like, I have to hire another front desk person? Didn't we just do that last year? I don't know what the ad should say. I don't know what we should pay them. Or like there's office drama and you're like, I have to create a SOP on that, what? And so that will burn you out because so much of being the CEO and the clinic owner is like,   pulling you away from patient care. So you either have to divide your patient care down or in half so you have time and now you're spending half of your time not doing what you wanna do or you just pile on the admin stuff on top of it so you're working 60 hours a week. So that person, obviously they burn out. Now the other one is I think a much more, like is much more my personal story and I'm so curious as to like why you started the podcast, why you started doing what you're doing but like.   Kiera Dent (09:30) Mm-hmm. Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (09:43) So this is, I was not someone that like was a natural entrepreneur. Like I never would have, you there's certain people you hear these stories where they're like, I'm kindergarten. was like, you know, I'm like, no, that wasn't me. Like I had no idea until really after I, you know, I started my practice, but that was out of convenience. Cause there was no job. Like I had kids and like somewhere along the line, the entrepreneurship bug just got me.   Kiera Dent (09:56) Hahaha!   Dr. Lauryn B (10:13) And then all of a sudden, that's what I wanted to be doing. Like I wanted to be scaling, looking at marketing strategy, looking at like growth projections, creating higher, like I wanted to do that. But then like Barb needs me in a room too. And I'm like, like I love, okay, I like serving. Yes, yes, yes. But like I really.   Kiera Dent (10:36) Yeah.   Dr. Lauryn B (10:41) This is what was exciting to me. And so then, and this is where I'll kind of like be vulnerable and share my story, because I know from stage that this helps people, people see this, but it's embarrassing to admit, but the patient care became boring. The patient care became repetitive. Like in the beginning, you're like, ⁓ how do I fix this? And like, you're not getting results, how do I do that? And it was this problem, like new problems to solve.   But once you've been doing it, five, seven years, I mean, for everybody it's different, you're kind of like, I can do that on autopilot. And it wasn't challenging a part of my brain that wanted to solve new problems. And so there was a lot of shame and guilt that came with, because at this point, I've been in practice seven years. I'm in my early 30s. Okay, well, you're doing this for the next 30 years. And I was like, I can't.   Kiera Dent (11:38) Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (11:39) can't do this for the next 30 years. And so that's just like, whichever side a clinic owner sees themself in, like, you you're not safe on either. You have to figure out burnout on either side, but ⁓ they're completely different reasonings. And I think understanding what, why are you feeling that burnout is really important.   Kiera Dent (12:04) Yeah, I love that you talked about both sides of the coin because I think there's guilt at least from what I see working with dentists working at myself. They actually got like I've heard I don't know like where this is coined but it's like the seven year itch or stitch like there's like you just kind of get into this and some people get it at five years some people get it at 10 years but there is ⁓ I also love Tony Robbins when he says like progress equals happiness.   Dr. Lauryn B (12:20) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (12:29) And so if we're not progressing and some people love it, they love the autopilot of patient care is easy for me. But like when you first get out of school, all of that is hard. It's a puzzle. You're progressing. You've got to figure out how do you navigate and get patients to say yes to treatment? How do I run my books? Like how, like there's so much how, how, how to, how do I like serve my patients better? How do I make this for dentists? It's like, do I make that perfect crown margin? Like, how do get that perfect? I imagine in chiropractor, I'm actually a chiropractor.   all the time. I love her. She's incredible. We do talk business often. She's a fee for service. And I'm like, let's talk shop on like going fee for service versus in network, like, just like dentists, right, the fee for service versus in network. And it's how can I make this body like looking at people that have weird symptoms and trying to figure out how can I fix that? Like, I know there's a way to fix this long term. ⁓ But also the like annoyance of running a business and also be like,   need for growth. I really love and I never thought about those two sides of the coin until you mentioned that of that really is what causes people to stress. And I think that there is guilt on both sides. I think there's guilt of I want to be with patient care and I don't want to run the business, but I know I have to like, this is kind of the, the card I signed up for. And then the other side of I want to leave the chair. I had a dentist the other day and one of our masterminds say to me, I only want to work two or three days, but I feel guilty because my team's working five days. And I was like,   Dr. Lauryn B (13:52) That's   a really common one.   Kiera Dent (13:54) so good. And the great news is you built the business, like you provided them the job, like you've created that. That does not mean you need to stay in the day to day, five days a week, like whatever is best for you as the business owner and creator. And that can shift and morph. But there is a lot of guilt. I think that that creates, like you said, a lot of shaming and thanks for being vulnerable on that because I think so many people can relate to that. I think when people are listening, they're like, yes, yes. Like, I feel either side of that and   I think people don't know how to get out of it. So instead it's just this like, let me keep doing the same. ⁓ let me listen to other podcasts. Let me see if other people are like me. And I'm sure it's the same in chiropractic dentistry. say that it's like this isolated Island and I'm so grateful for podcasts. I'm grateful for communities, but I still think people feel that way because you're day in day out in your own clinic, in your own practice by yourself, even though you maybe know there's a few other islands out there that are maybe similar to you. ⁓ but I think it's such a, I think that's also business too.   Dr. Lauryn B (14:36) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (14:52) I don't think it's just being ⁓ a provider in your own practice. I business entrepreneurs feel this way as well, like, how can everybody else figure this out? And I don't feel like I can. ⁓   Dr. Lauryn B (15:00) And you have no idea that they haven't figured it out. I was at   a seven figure female mastermind a month ago. so it's all seven figure females all over the board, as far as like industry striving to get to eight figures. And like, there were so many moments at this retreat that every single person just felt like their business was duct taped together. And it's just like, everybody's just doing their   Kiera Dent (15:07) you   Dr. Lauryn B (15:29) absolute damn best. And so it is really, ⁓ but you know, I wonder how much of how much of this burnout conversation has to do with like generational differences. You know, like, I'm assuming that you are a millennial. Yeah. And yeah, I know, we really are the best. really are. Don't tell everybody else, but we are the best generation. ⁓   Kiera Dent (15:46) Mm-hmm. Yep. I like the emojis. I'm here for all the millennial vibes. Like, I'm here for all of them. I feel like I really fit it.   Dr. Lauryn B (15:59) And so I will point this out on stage a lot because when you're talking, giving continuing ed, you'll have a lot of, Gen X is still in the workforce. Like they are still here. from the time I was in school up until like the last couple of years, they really were a lot of the stage presence at conferences.   Kiera Dent (16:12) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Dr. Lauryn B (16:28) And so you being a millennial would sit and really just get advice, business success, career advice through the lens of Gen X. And why that's something that we just have to be aware of is like each generation has a very different script that they have downloaded, like they've just absorbed kind of.   automatically without putting too much thought into, know, it's just like the culture of their generation. And Gen X was like, shut up, don't complain about it. There is work life balance. Like your career is the most important thing. Like raising your kids, like you have a spouse for that and you will enjoy your life once you have accumulated enough money.   And if you've done it right, that'll happen by your like 60, between 60 and 65. But the goal is to hustle, hustle, hustle, accumulate, accumulate, accumulate at all costs. You can enjoy your life if you need a second, if you need to get a divorce and you just get a new spouse in your sixties, that's what like, and so like not trying to give them shit or anything. Their work ethic is phenomenal. My favorite employees are Gen X. Yeah. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (17:41) I always love to hire them. I was like, perfect, come on in, you're gonna work forever. Like, it's great, amazing.   Dr. Lauryn B (17:47) So they're great. But then like we come in and you know, I know that in chiropractic now 50 % of graduates are females. Do you know what that is in dentistry?   Kiera Dent (17:58) Dentistry   actually tipped over. There's more females that are graduating than there are men. It just recently tipped this scale, which I was quite impressed by, which is awesome. So it's exciting.   Dr. Lauryn B (18:09) It's so cool,   but we're kind of screwed because we as millennials, we're not going to not have children. We're not going to delegate that completely to somebody else. I mean, my husband, I'm definitely the primary breadwinner in my husband's profession or career has like molded to what our family needs are, but like.   Kiera Dent (18:13) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (18:35) So we're not gonna do that, we're not gonna do that, like we're not gonna give up our career. And so it's not like we're complaining about work-life balance, it's just a necessity. We're like, no, no, no, it's not like I'm like, like I, it's like, no, this isn't I want to raise my child, it's I have a child, I have to raise them also and the business. And so like we're trying to figure out, like, well, I can't follow that script.   Kiera Dent (18:47) Right.   Dr. Lauryn B (19:05) that script that we saw from stage for so long is just like, that's not gonna work for me. we're trying, that's why everything feels duct taped together is because we actively reject it. We were given a script to follow, like work six days a week, just do it. And we're like, nah, I don't want that. And it's like, okay, well then we're literally creating a new path. And so to any millennial, I would say like, if it just feels   Kiera Dent (19:15) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (19:34) messy, this probably isn't a youth thing. This is like, are truly carving a brand new way to do things, which we're kind of wasting our time because Gen Z is coming in like, no, I'm not doing that either. And we're like, we're fixing this for you. And they're like two months into their, yeah, they're like two months into their profession and like, ooh, 30 hours a week? That's not gonna work for me.   Kiera Dent (19:44) was going to say, they're coming right behind. Exactly.   They're like, no, no, no, no. We see that. We're not doing that either.   Yeah, not happening.   No, they're like, I could be a YouTube, like I could I could do all these different things. I can be an influencer for like five hours a week and make way more than you are not here for that.   Dr. Lauryn B (20:10) And you're like, well,   I don't know how to solve this for you.   Kiera Dent (20:13) they're like AI,   why are guys like still doing stuff yourselves? Like, no, we're gonna have robots to do all this stuff for us. Like, absolutely not. It's incredible. Like, good. But I don't disagree with you. I think it's ⁓ and as you said that I thought about how agreed and I think every generation actually makes it better from the last and I do agree that ⁓ I don't know, I started thinking about it. This struck me about probably, I don't know, eight years ago. And I'm like,   Dr. Lauryn B (20:20) He probably will. Like, damn it.   Kiera Dent (20:42) my gosh, like people used to get married because they needed to be married. Like you used to have to have like a husband and a wife to be able to have kids. And I'm like, you don't need that anymore. There's IVF, there's ⁓ different things that you can do. You do not need anybody anymore to live the life you want to live. It's very much becoming this like self ability. But I'm like, our parents couldn't do that. I mean, women even coming to the forefront to be able to have businesses.   to own land in our name. Like that has not been a long change and shift for women to be here. And then I also think that there's a whole dynamic for women as well coming into this scene. Like you said, they are coming in there. We're, having stronger professions. are being stronger business owners. We're like the kid having children is being delayed much longer in life. And so I do think it's a, a walking through and not understanding like where are we even supposed to go? Because what we've seen as the model isn't the model for us anymore.   like that doesn't work. Our lives look different. I mean, my mom, didn't work a lot of my friends moms didn't work or if they did, they worked at the schools or they didn't work like high level powered careers, a lot of them and I'm so excited that women are coming into the workforce and because there's so much talent and beauty. But I do think that there's a whole dynamic and for men too. think that the whole shifting like you said, a lot of women are becoming breadwinners. They do.   Dr. Lauryn B (21:41) Mm-hmm.   yeah, they want to be dads. Like that's the   thing too is like, they're like, hey, I just cause I'm a dude doesn't mean like I'm okay with missing my kid's childhood. It truly is a generational shift.   Kiera Dent (22:11) Exactly   Exactly. And so I think I just through all of it, I think you're highlighting what makes me excited. And the reason I'm just like jazzed about this today is it's normal. It's okay. And there's solutions around it. And also, I think just aha moments of, my gosh, like maybe this is why. And I do agree. Generations behind the millennials, you're probably giggling at our conversation right here. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys don't even know what you're talking about. But I think like we're in it. Exactly.   Dr. Lauryn B (22:41) Hey, we say you don't know what you're talking about.   Kiera Dent (22:44) I'm like, but we're in it and there has to be a solution here.   Dr. Lauryn B (22:44) Hey! I have the microphone.   Kiera Dent (22:48) Who's on this podcast and who's listening? All right. I think when I look at that, I'm like, but for millennials, think that they're, and most generations probably feel this. think we're a taffy stretch between one way of thinking and a new way of thinking. And we're kind of that like middle child syndrome right now where we really are trying to carve that new path that's making it easier for other generations behind us to see easier modalities.   But I do think that that kind of tug of war, I mean, I feel it, you felt it. We've had our personal experiences through it. We see people, we coach people through this, we work with people. But I also think in a way life has become easier to learn. I don't know how you feel. And like easier with air quotes, meaning there's so many things that do things for us. Like washer and dryers were so great for our parents' generations. But I'm like, for us, we now have, like you said at the beginning, we have AI that's writing bios for us. We've got virtual assistants that are doing it.   There's ways, like you said, there's easier ways to make money outside of just doing your day in, day out, eight to five job now. There's different ways that we can build retirement. There's ways like the Airbnb market and having real estate investments. Like there's so many different ways that I feel like wealth is oftentimes easier to achieve. But I think with that, because there's so many things and not to say that it's perfectly easy, but I think as we conquer in life, just like the washer and dryer, the cell phone, like those things were conquering big problems.   Google coming in and the internet taking over, those conquered a lot of challenges. I think so much of today's challenge, and I don't know how you feel, Lauryn. This is like Kiera going off on her own soapbox. I feel like you said so much of it now is our mind and that space of centeredness, of balance, ⁓ not having to work all the time. I think a lot of jobs have shifted from labor jobs to mental labor jobs. So we're not having as much physical.   Dr. Lauryn B (24:32) Hmm.   Kiera Dent (24:35) Like you said, patient care can be a lot of just like mindless. I miss the days sometimes of being a dental assistant, sitting there and having like hours of time to dream of all these ideas to where now I feel like I wish and crave for that quietness that my mind never gets anymore. And so I feel like even with some of those shifts and how we work and how our family needs are in the necessities of family dynamics in, we don't need to work clear up to 65, but people are able to retire now at 35, 40. And then it's like, now what, what am I supposed to do? So also then finding your purpose in life.   I think you combine all that into a cluster storm and voila, welcome to millennial dilemma. Like, you know, we can coin that of what do people do? How do they, how do they exist? And I think the future generations coming will have even more of this at more grand scale. So it's like, let's have conversations of how do we prevent that burnout? How do we have the conversations about not working in like having nothing left to give to our families of having that balance? Like you said, if I want to run the business and I want to progress, but I also want to be a human at the same time.   So Lauryn, think you're more the expert at this than I am. I'm just here for the like great conversations and talking it through because I think it's such a necessary conversation that now is starting to really bubble to the surface out of necessity and also out of curiosity and also out of like desire to fix this and not have it be our day in day out norm anymore.   Dr. Lauryn B (25:54) Yeah, well, so I'm gonna say another kind of controversial thing then. ⁓ So you touched on it and like with any time, we don't love, as care providers, we don't wanna come across as greedy, right? And so what we end up doing is like, we'll just be like, it would be great to be wealthy, but like not too much, like I don't need to be rich, and you didn't do this or anything like this, but like.   Kiera Dent (25:57) Ready, I love this.   Dr. Lauryn B (26:22) other people is just like, yeah, I would like to make a little more money. ⁓ so part of my story, ⁓ I'll give you the very short version, was ⁓ we had our most successful revenue year ever. And it was with like the least amount of money I had taken home in like seven years. Yeah, yeah, we call this payroll bloat. You need to fix your pricing structure so we could talk about pricing increases.   Kiera Dent (26:42) Happens all the time, all the time.   Dr. Lauryn B (26:50) And so like I'm a cash clinic. So like this was my own fault. This was, I set my prices and I just did a bad job at it. And so part of like, if when people are like, well, how did you like, were you burnt out? And I was like, yeah, I was burnt out at like 32. And you're like, are you burnt out? I'm like, no, I freaking love what I do now. I still serve patients 10 hours a week. actually.   as of last week went down to like seven. We got a chef, yay. So I still serve patients like seven hours a week. I still spend probably like three hours a week ⁓ running meetings and like running the clinic. ⁓ But now we have other investments. ⁓ Whereas that clinic portion that used to be all of our eggs were in that basket.   Kiera Dent (27:22) I'm not.   Dr. Lauryn B (27:46) Right? So like, as we had kids, my husband left corporate consulting to help our family and clinic grow. So all of our eggs were in this one basket of whether the clinic does well that quarter or not. we want to remodel the kitchen? Better go get some more new patients. Like, want to go to Disney? It's not in the budget, but like, ugh, like all of these things. And we're not even talking about time freedom. Like we're just talking about like the key to burnout is having time freedom and   financial freedom. When I'm working with docs, the ones that are like the hardest to fix are not the ones that are like, I am working 60 hours a week. I have like oodles of money that I know should be like, I should be doing something with in, but it's just like $50,000 in this bank account. And like, I wish I had time to go to Disney, but I don't, I don't want to belittle that. That is a different kind of burnout.   Kiera Dent (28:32) Mm-hmm.   Right,   it is.   Dr. Lauryn B (28:45) and   everybody right now is playing a little sad song for you, but I relate to you, we can fix this. But the harder ones are the ones that are broke. Like being broke, and this has to do with like just core psychological, like I reference Maslow's hierarchy of needs a lot in my talks because like.   Kiera Dent (28:49) Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (29:07) You cannot get to the tip, the Maslow's for those of us that took Psych 101 10 years ago is the triangle where at the top is enlightenment and at the bottom is like your base survival, food, water, shelter. And if you are broke, now granted, monks, I'm sure they can figure out how to have enlightenment without having food, water, shelter. Most of us cannot, okay? We are doctors and there is a certain amount of debt.   Kiera Dent (29:12) Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Dr. Lauryn B (29:34) and a certain amount of expectation is maybe the right, I don't know if that's the right word, with like, I'm gonna serve people and this career is gonna take care of me. I'm gonna go into debt and it's a lot of debt, but this career is gonna take care of me. I'm gonna care for people, as long as I focus on serving, the career will take care of me. And we have too many people that it's just not. And they're like, I...   did not realize that I was going to struggle this much financially. These are not people that are like, can't afford a yacht. These are people like truly who are like my margins for financial investing and building wealth are a lot more narrow than I thought they were going to be. And that's a harder thing to fix, but that...   Kiera Dent (30:22) Hmm.   Dr. Lauryn B (30:27) is a deeper kind of burnout that we just need to be more comfortable. Again, following generational stuff, Gen X, like we don't talk about money, right? That was the script that we got from them of like, you just focus on the patients and the patients will take care of you. And you're like, ⁓ okay, so we don't talk about money. And then millennials are like, I think we need to start talking about money. I think we need to start talking about money because if you were being paid,   Kiera Dent (30:38) Bye.   Hahaha!   Dr. Lauryn B (30:56) whatever you feel is appropriate. If you were feeling wealthy. And again, I'm not talking about that. I'm not putting on you that like you feel like you need to be making $3 million a year. Like, although that is my goal for next year is 3 million. just, but like, you know, just so we're clear, that is my literal goal for next year. So you can want that. You have permission to want that if you want, but we're talking about like, I don't know. Maybe if you made $500,000 a year, life would be a little easier and you could breathe.   Kiera Dent (31:10) Yeah, exactly.   Dr. Lauryn B (31:26) And if you can literally financially breathe, you have more bandwidth   make calm decisions for your business. Where you don't feel like if you have a bad quarter, you're gonna have to lay someone off. And like that's one of the first steps to helping most people   burnout or recover from burnout.   is like, we gotta talk about money and we gotta fix your personal financial situation because if you're constantly in a place of fight or flight   you can give yourself an extra 10 hours a week and time to be the CEO if all you're doing is worrying about how you're gonna make payroll. Like, it's not, you're not gonna   from burnout.   Kiera Dent (32:22) think that that was such a good ⁓ way that you highlighted it. And I'm just very curious now, like, how's the how, because agree, like people, what you're saying, Lauryn, I can tell you've lived the like the life. This is something that you've done, you've been there, you can speak to it so authentically. I've been there many times. And I'm always like, I want our doctors to get paid so well. I see how much you go into school for debt.   I see the, and I think that that's a different piece too, if we're to talk generational, people who are not walking out like half a million debt.   Dr. Lauryn B (32:55) And y'all are way worse than us,   right? Like what's the average dentist, like 350?   Kiera Dent (33:01) Average dentists right now are coming out at almost half a mil of debt when they walk in. It's bonkers.   Dr. Lauryn B (33:05) That is bonkers, you guys. Like when I heard that, because I posted a reel that went   so viral and it was just about like healthcare debt and reimbursement rates. And that's when I learned they were like, 250? Talk to a dentist. And I was like, wait, why? How long? And they were like, yeah, 350 minimum. And I was like,   Kiera Dent (33:25) Yeah.   Dr. Lauryn B (33:30) That's insane. That's insane.   Kiera Dent (33:32) That's insane.   And then you go buy a practice. So the practice that I helped start with a dentist straight out of school, we were, I called her 2.5. I got to walk by and I'm like, get that spine up like you're 2.5. We were 2.5 mil in debt. So that was coming with student loans. So schooling was 500,000. Living expenses during that time were about another, you know, two to 500. So like they're walking out with this.   $500, $600, $700,000 worth of debt, not just including your schooling, but all of life expenses, because you're probably not working while you're going to school. And then we went and bought a practice that's about a $2 million practice. So we were like 2.5, not like we were 2.5 in debt. I was like, keep that spine up, like put your hands up when you walk across the street, like you've got to keep those hands in motion because otherwise how are we going to get out of debt? And I think for me, when I look at that much debt,   when I look at that much risk and I look at the benefits that healthcare providers are giving, I'm like, no. And I tell teams all the time, I'm you want your doctor to be ridiculously wealthy. Like I do, and I preach this hard and I say, no, you should and you deserve it. And we want you that way because you're a better boss, you're a better clinician, you are better at doing your services because you're not stressed about making money. So we're not like you said, like, I want to go to Disney, let me go find more patients. I get.   No, I have confident, predictable payroll or cash flow. I'm very successful in what I do and you can make the margins there. Like I was the girl who did business that did not understand numbers. And now I say like, I love numbers and numbers definitely love me. And I'm like, it's now just a fun math equation. If I want to make X amount, you just back it down. You figure out what your costs are and you figure out the three levers you can use. We either drop our overhead, increase our production and or our collections. Like it's very simple when I'm like, okay, got it.   Dr. Lauryn B (35:05) and   Kiera Dent (35:17) Like got it when it's just those three levers, people make it so much more complex. And I think it does feel complex. Like reading a PNL is ridiculous. If you don't know what that is, that's okay. We're here where there's no judgment. It's a profit and loss statement. And I love educating people on this. Like this is where the fire in the belly comes. This is where it does. We get lit up because when I have someone who's cashflow positive, like you said, they can make calm decisions. They're not sitting here stressing all the time, but Lauryn, I'm very curious. Like you've talked about it at length. Like what do people do? Like what's the how, how do we get into this?   How do we have multiple streams because agreed all eggs in one basket? gosh. It's, ⁓ to me, that's like just a ticking time bomb. Like one bad day, one bad patient, one bad procedure. Like it's just going to explode because you're sitting like you're sitting on the edge of fear all the time to where you are in like cortisol adrenaline, like you are pumping. And then what you do is you go into complete shutdown because you can't handle it anymore. So your body and your system literally like just shuts down on you. You become apathetic to life.   Dr. Lauryn B (35:54) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (36:15) things aren't exciting for you anymore. You become very numb to walking through the world. And it's like, I feel like the world of color goes into very like gray. It's very subtle. It's like, it's, there's no, there's no life left. It's just, are living life, but you're not actually being and living day in, out.   The Dental A Team (36:33) that wraps part one of our part two series. Be sure to tune back in for part two of this podcast. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

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I'm like "Just the water." There you go "Just the water." But anyhow I say all that to say the blue plate special of the day at McBee's whether you're eating healthy or not they got you covered 'cause you can do the chicken breast but today's Thursday the special is red sauce spaghetti and it is oh so good if you like spaghetti I'm not even a red sauce spaghetti fan I like alfredos- Really Okay and the chicken spaghettis and stuff But I will eat it here and there Like if somebody cooks it I'm not pushing it away But I did I wanted to try everything on the menu Yeah So I could honestly give you my my opinion on it Their red sauce spaghetti's great but if that's not your thing they do have um hamburger steak which is works great for keto They have chicken breast or country fried steak And of course the vegetables okra and stewed tomatoes black-eyed peas turnip greens rice and gravy side salad lima beans green beans mashed potatoes mac and cheese fried okra or fries So you know if you been doing this long enough you know you can create you a carb less plate lunch right there from McBee's And uh I I went a little half and half yesterday I did get the fried okra 'cause they have in my opinion the best fried okra in town It's hard to pass fried okra man It it it really is Let's uh let's take a call real quick before we jump into this conversation on the Mazda Jackson phone line Hey good morning you're on the air Good morning Clay Uh I was headed toward I-220 yesterday going to Industrial Drive take my son some lunch I live in Rankin County of course But on the way up there that going there is nothing but a junk It's trash and I was thinking since the fair was gonna be in town everybody was gonna clean up everything mattresses on the highway Uh it was just it was just unbelievable And where was that at 20 westbound going to I-220- Oh oh to Industrial Drive Oh oh yeah It was terrible Yeah it it's bad C- like of course I come through there every day and I'm just wildly disappointed I will say that at least up through the Ellis Avenue area there they do have the street lights working again Uh so kudos to MDOT for that Okay Okay but everything else it it was just terrible the fair will be here today and they would have everything cleaned up but no Ah it's unfortunate- So but hey what you know if you don't expect anything you won't be disappointed when you don't get it.That is true And I didn't expect nothing else from out of Highlands County But thank you Have a great day Enjoy the show Bye You Thanks I love- Look- I love my callers Ca- can I say this though I actually do think that Mayor John Horn's doing a good job so far I do too Yeah I mean look are are there things that people wish would happen faster Yeah But if you look at sort of the level of activity you know just getting out and filling potholes and paving streets and the stuff that's the basic blocking and tackling I think they're looking for the right police chief obviously right now Um you gotta give them a little credit compared to where we were were you know just- Oh sure a few months ago Well you know it's like I said for the the year leading up to the election whoever wins if they'll just come in and quit doing all the wrong things right they'll they're gonna look really smart Just just letting you know like a like letting a a s- a let- letting a a wound heal on your arm a scab If we just quit picking at it it'll heal Uh the last mayor and the administration in general just kept picking at scabs And for the analogy here it's like uh traditionally you know for 100 years for government to run correctly you just take a right take a right take a right Uh at every opportunity to take a traditional right chalk away to the left And if you would just get back to taking the rights just doing the right thing period You don't have to be the smartest guy in the room but it's gotten so bad if you'll just do that again you're gonna look great And I think John's getting back to just do it just let's just quit trying to reinven- vent the wheel and just let it go round and round and some of this will autocorrect Yeah and look John's smart Um I think he's surrounding himself with some smart people I mean we'll see how it plays out It's earl- it's too early to say that it's going to be a a raving success But comparatively already they're doing things and I think have kind of built the right kind of team Um and then you know you look at the level of cooperation that I think you're going to get from the legislature from the governor um they all like him I mean he had a history of working across the aisle and being easy to talk to and easy to work with And I think people are gonna want to help um you know as we come up into this next session And so I think Jackson's like if if I I know part of of your brand has been like hey Jackson's not where it needs to be and that's true I think Jackson has an opportunity right now to right some wrongs Yeah 100% Look I said it straight up Now there's gonna be some things I talk about 'cause this this is my brand this is my show I mean I'm going to talk about Jackson crime and some of the things I see that are just- Sure out of control But like just the culture rot more so But I did say I'm I'm gonna give it a year bef- unless there's something just egregious I'm gonna give John a year to find the bathrooms so to say before I start really peeling back and you know being nitpicky 'Cause I I think that there's gonna be a lot there's a lot to un- to un-F around here and I'm gonna give him an opportunity to get that get his people in place let them figure out where the bathrooms are at And I'll be honest there the these people I think the expectation is you gotta come in and start working from day one and you're seeing that You mentioned it with the potholes And so these people they're hiring they seem to be hitting the ground running and that's uh wildly impressive uh based on the last 7 or 8 years And look I I would say this too is like uh it's possible to do both things to recognize that progress is being made in a way that is at least somewhat encouraging and simultaneously not to hide from the fact that there's some significant challenges in Jackson that are gonna be hard for anybody to solve for Uh no no doubt No doubt Because I I look I'm exci- I'm optimistic for the first time instead of pessimistic that some things are gonna get done and that we're gonna start enforcing some laws around here And little stuff like code ordinance and whatnot are gonna be big things And not just Quit just going after businesses to go after How about start going after people for the broke down cars in their yard All this little stuff You know get back to the quality of life things Get back to people holding the people accountable for not cutting their grass holding businesses accountable uh illegal signage I mean let's get back to enforcing what's on the books Code ordinances to me is just like the number one thing that the last administration just said "Nah We're we're not gonna bully the citizens." Yeah I mean I think this is true not just in Jackson but everywhere but having pride in where you live is a pretty good indicator of how of of the quality of life that you're gonna have Well you know look Russ one of the things for me that really grinded my gears and I did not intend to get on this but we're here now uh there's a crew of guys and God bless them and I don't talk about them much but it's the guys they're all from like Rankin and Madison County and they've been cleaning the interstates and all that It's Casey Bridges and some other guys and they're doing they're doing great great work Uh but uh there's a part of me that wishes they didn't do it and this is just selfish I get it I should be glad they're doing it and I should I should give them their roses right But they're they're doing it for a bunch of people who really don't appreciate it overwhelmingly They the second they cleaned up the interstate pressure wash it all their stuff these people and some of the comments I've seen online from people is "Y'all supposed to be doing it Y'all should be doing it We shouldn't be having to Y'all all left Jackson The least you can do is come back and clean it." I'm like how about thank you How about that H- how about y'all clean your own city Or how about I don't know the people that we pay taxes to clean and pressure wash the interstates and bridges and everything else how about they do You know Like the citizenry shouldn't have to be uh doing Yeah look and I think there's I think there's a danger a- and I came up in churches I came up doing mission work um and part of the danger that I saw in church mission work is like you would take a group of youth to some city right in the United States presumably with the thought that you were gonna share the gospel of Christ but really it was a work trip And you'd go into a neighborhood and you'd clean up trash or you'd paint houses um and and you were helping to beautify where people lived and at some level it reinforces bad behavior right Because in an ideal world some random person doesn't come and clean Russ's yard- Right 'cause Russ is trashy Russ gets out and cleans his yard because he cares enough about where he lives whether it's an 800 square foot or 8,000 square foot house right He cares enough about where he lives that he's gonna take care of his own property And if everybody does that communities get a lot safer they get a lot closer to each other um and so at some level it's reinforcing um bad behavior if somebody else comes and does it for you when it's something that you're capable of doing yourself and should be motivated to do Yeah How about don't throw trash out your car when you're driving down the interstate That's a good start How about don't litter so people don't have to do this Yeah I mean these are real simple things You know we're we're rewarding bad behavior Well how about y'all come pressure wash my driveway cut my yard I'm doing I'm doing good You know what I'm saying And look there are there are exceptions to this right If you have if you have an 85-year-old live-in widow who can't get out and cut the grass then I think it's awesome that somebody will go and volunteer to cut her grass Amen And that should happen right And so that's that's a different scenario Like I would rather see that energy put in that direction you know find out the little who the little old ladies are that need the help the little old men whatever Let's And I'm not saying people aren't helping them but I'd rather see that than um cleaning up the interstates and all that stuff Again I think they're d- I don't want to diminish what they're doing I think it's great But I feel like you're enabling the people who are littering and doing this I don't know I'm just wildly conflicted I think it enables bad behavior as y- as kind of it rewards bad behavior as you said Well and look I mean you see this internationally and I think even progressives now recognize some of the damage that was done globally in what was a well-intentioned thing like "Hey we're gonna go feed the world," right "There are hungry people we're gonna go feed the world." Or uh "There are places where there's not indoor plumbing or running water" or whatever we're gonna go fix that We did it for people and never taught people th- that skillset in a way that even today there's reliance there And so I think the challenge has always been like how do you be tenderhearted and compassionate the way that I would argue the Bible requires you to be while simultaneously recognizing that sometimes being tenderhearted and compassionate is forcing people to get into uncomfortable situations to figure it out for themselves Yeah Uh what I feel like is kinda done too and this is just from me directly here is it's raised the price of tea in China a bit 'cause now when I get to arguing about people and the things that they've done to Jackson "Well why ain't you out there like them other guys cleaning up the interstate?" 'Cause I'm not gonna clean up your mess I'm not your mama is why God bless them that they feel moved to do that and that's their ministry My ministry is putting my boot up your ass and and telling you that you've screwed up That's my ministry I mean look people were mad at MrBeast was it about a year ago 'Cause he was going into parts of Africa that didn't have wells And was digging wells And I mean I even again even really progressive voices were saying this is counterproductive because really what needs to happen in those settings is like people have the resources and institutional knowledge to do that for themselves 'cause that's sustainable long term Yeah And those wells were already dried up and no good and been robbed and pillaged and everything else from my understanding is It was all just a big waste and look at- Although I I will say that that guy tries to do a lot of good He really does He does He does I'm not hating on him Uh he he does try to do a lot of good but he gets paid very well for the good deeds he does That's true too You know with content monetization But hey I'm not a hater on that at all Thank y'all for the uh money I made the last couple months on uh my content All right Let's take a break When we come back we're actually gonna jump into the TPUSA versus Clinton uh debacle that's going on out there Don't go anywhere here on The Clay Edwards Show 1039 WYAB This is Central Mississippi's stimulating talk 1039 WYAB Pocahontas Jackson.It's time to fall into savings at Mazda of Jackson With ball games road trips and all the busyness don't miss a thing with 2.9% financing for 36 months on a new 2025 Mazda CX-5 Or get 2.9% financing for 63 months on the 2025 CX-90 One-year maintenance is included on your new vehicle purchase And take advantage of the pre-tariff inventory that's almost gone Shop online at mazdaofjackson.com or visit Mazda of Jackson I-55 Frontage Road in Jackson Looking for the ultimate reset for your body and skin At Core Wellness and Recovery you'll find next-level services like cryotherapy red light therapy infrared sauna body sculpting and advanced facials Whether you want to boost performance recover faster or just feel your best Core Wellness and Recovery delivers real results with 0 downtime From muscle relief to radiant skin this is self-care redefined Come experience the future of wellness Core Wellness and Recovery just off Highland Colony in Ridgeland Book now at corewellnessandrecovery.com Hey guys This is KC Ellis with LS Autoplex located on Highway 471N Brandon LS Autoplex known as Little Truck City is your old-school mom-and-pop-style dealership that's family-owned and operated We specialize in 4wheel drive trucks but don't worry we have cars and SUVs too Looking to sell your vehicle Bring it by LS Autoplex where we pay fair market value and we cut you a check on the spot Need your vehicle serviced or repaired We can handle that too Shop us online or set your appointment at lsautoplex.com That's lsautoplex.com Tri-County Tree Service the Jackson Metro's premier company to handle all of your tree service needs Russ Bourland and his team specialize in large tree low-impact removal Tri-County Tree Service has the right equipment to safely handle the most technical trim jobs or tree removals Storm damage can happen year-round so let them clean it up and they'll deal with your insurance claim Tri-County Tree Service By phone at 601-TREE-GUY or online at tricotreeservice.com That's tricotreeservice.com Craving something extraordinary in Jackson Manship Restaurant is where your taste buds hit the jackpot Join us for happy hour every day from 3:00 to 6:00 PM where your wallet will thank you and your stomach will sing Indulge in half-priced woodfire pizzas because why pay full price for half the fun And for just $5 dive into our private barrel bourbon picks That's right luxury on a budget Plus beat the heat with our frozen drink specials a tropical escape without the travel expenses Make your way to the Manship where happy hour isn't just a time it's an experience Are you a wine enthusiast Are you looking for the perfect bottle to elevate your next dinner The ultimate destination for wine lovers is 042 Wine & Spirits on West Government Street in Brandon The locally owned the locally operated 042 Wine offers something for everyone from local favorites to rare vintage wines 042 Wine & Spirits can help you find your next favorite wine The friendly and knowledgeable folks at 042 Wine & Spirits will help you find the perfect bottle for every occasion 042 Wine & Spirits located on West Government Street in Brandon ......... For decades you've known the name Martin's for good times great food and the best live music Now that's happening at 2 locations downtown Jackson and Livingston Check the websites martinslivingtonms.com and martinsdowntownjxn.com for the many special events and live music lineups You can chill with friends on the big patio at the Livingston location and enjoy the blue plate lunches and nightly drink specials Martin's downtown and Livingston Broadcasting live from the Men's Health & Women's Wellness of Mississippi studios this is the Clay Edwards Show Welcome back in to the Clay Edwards Show Uh we got about 5 or 6 minutes left on this hour here 6 minutes so let's just jump straight in I'm not gonna do an ad read right now Russ TPUSA verse Uh first off this is the first time you and I have had a chance to talk since the assassination of Charlie Kirk Let let me ask you this We You're g- you're here for the next hour right Uh I can stay for a while yeah Okay So w- we can peel this onion back a little slower When when that happened man take me back to 'Cause it's it's gonna be That's the moment I'll never forget That's 9/11 like 9/11 I'll never forget who I was with exactly what I was doing the whole thing is just It is f- f- like frozen in time in my brain the way I felt and everything I'm sure you've gotten threats- Yeah uh over the years You know I know I have Uh te- take us back to the the day of the assassination t- as this all this whole thing unfolded What Where were you at What were you doing How did you feel Put us in the timeline please Yeah yeah I was just I was just working Um you know I think I I happened to see on Twitter the the closeup video and I've never seen anything like that in my life Like I've I practiced law for a while and some of my practice uh involved life insurance claims and so I've seen photos that are gruesome I've never seen sort of in real time the amount of blood that was involved in that And I don't say that to be gory or salacious but- No I know what you mean it it that that alone the injury alone impacted me I think it was an odd moment in the sense that like we had seen President Trump obviously get shot in Butler Pennsylvania I didn't have the same emotional reaction to that as I had to the Kirk assassination Part of it is that Trump obviously survived I was gonna say the immediate That would be different if he hadn't of survived or hadn't got up on his own- I I think that's right Yeah I think the other part of it though is uh and and this may come across wrong is like at some level if there's gonna be a political assassination you would expect it to be someone in Congress or a president right Somebody that actually has the ability to impact policy that impacts people Charlie Kirk had none of that He had no political power other than the fact that his ideas impacted people Had influence And so the the thing that I think was disturbing is somebody that clearly doesn't have nearly the audience or scale that he's got but who has um been involved in conversations around policy for a long time is like "Hey somebody could be killed just for what they think." Um in a country that has been built off of the idea that the free exchange of ideas is sort of bedrock to who we are as a people part of what makes us ex- exceptional And so in that moment I think there was a vulnerability You mentioned 9/11 Obviously 9/11 involved 3,000 people dying it involved wars after the fact so a different scale but a similar type of vulnerability where you go "Oh my gosh like things like this can happen." To everyday people To everyday people Yeah Um and there was also this poignant moment in my brain of he's on a college campus and if you think about the whole point of college it really should be a marketplace of ideas where you test what ideas work and what ideas don't Iron sharpens iron kind of thing And so that's the that is the environment that should be most suitable to real exploration and debate of tough issues Um and so I think it was just sort of that juxtaposition of like here's a normal guy who got killed for his ideas and thoughts on a college campus um and it created a sense of real vulnerability I think it also woke up a lot of people who said like "Hey look this is not just a words versus words thing." Like we're at a moment societally where people are so angry at each other and see each other so much as their enemy that stuff like this can happen Yeah yeah That's a great that's a great explanation of it It it was just the the vulnerability and it really made me take a a step back and I I know that my friends and family all and and audience all mean well when they're like "Hey man you really need to keep your head on a swivel." And and so on and so forth you know with all the stuff that you deal with and do and say and everything else Uh and it did it made it real You make people mad Yeah Yeah Apparently So I'm very polarizing they say Uh but it it just ki- it blows my mind I won't say it kills me figuratively that that your words can anger somebody so bad that they want to kill you Like to me I'm just talking about thugs and criminals and people who have actually killed people and But it's never them that I'm really worried about It's people who feel like they had to defend them or that they get offended by the blast radius of me talking about them It's like I we have to kill this guy I w- "Oh so why does Clay keep talking about uh Black violence and Black on Black crime I wish he would shut up Oh you know what I'm gonna commit a crime I'm gonna be violent and threaten him." Like well you're mad You're gonna do the thing that you're mad that I'm talking about Well and look you know- It it blows my mind And it ain't just them I get I get I get death threats from from White people too Sure And and so what I would say is I mean like we we grew up with this adage "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words may will won't ever hurt me." There's some truth to that but uh there's also there there's a degree of falsehood to that because we're emotional people right And things do hurt people's feelings or get people angry or or fearful Um but we bought into for a little while this idea and it really started on the the left side of the spectrum in c- on college campuses that words are violence And if you allow yourself to believe that the things that Clay says and you say some stuff I disagree with Sure Um I say some stuff you disagree with right But like if you allow yourself to buy into this idea that the words that Clay says are violence then you become justified in doing violence But they also tell us that silence is violence So words are violence and silence is violence if you're if you're not You ca- you it's it's not just You can't just be against racism you have to be a outspoken anti-racist as well So if you don't agree with them publicly if you're not a outspoken ally you might as well be an enemy and that is dangerous as well Yeah I look I just think we've gotta we've gotta get to the point again where we recognize that violence is violence Like if I walk up to you and punch you in the face you have the ability to punch me back But if I walk up to you and tell you "You're a colossal dumbass," your response should be "Well I don't like you either," or whatever Yeah But you don't you don't You're not justified in in punching me in the face So I agree And so like just getting to the point where we're emotionally mature enough to recognize there are gonna be people who say things that we absolutely disagree with And we can either debate those people or we can roll our eyes and move on I mean I think that every time I'm on Facebook I'm like "Why are these random people starting fights with people you don't even know?" Right Like you are wasting your time Roll your eyes and move on Yeah I got into a Jeremy England commented something yesterday made a post yesterday about uh people P- people starting off they wanna debate you but they insult you first Like "You effing idiot why don't you debate me?" Or "You're a douchebag why don't you debate me?" Well you've already crossed into the assaults Sure Why would Why would I debate you I dealt with the same thing uh earlier this week with some little 300 followers uh sending me all kind of nasty messages trying to get me to debate him Basically he wants me to platform him Sure You know I'm like I'm just There's no- You're smart enough to know that right Yeah Yeah Like why why would I do that Sure But even if I were to entertain it the way you started the conversation off with the insults I have Why would I want to do that for you Like to introduce you to my quarter million followers uh would be the best thing that ever happened to you if you're if you're so good if your opinions are so strong you could take advantage of that like like I've done in the past But now because you've insulted me to start the conversation I'm not gonna do that We gotta take a break We'll be right back with Russ Lateno here on WYAB Actually we're going to carry the conversation on in the uh live chat during the break Y'all don't go nowhere You gotta take the headphones off for this Okay Yeah during the breaks it it sends the radio signal whatever the commercials through the headphones Okay But uh If we But we're still alive we can talk Uh I like this conversation and I don't wanna just stop it 'cause we're gonna have like a weird run of commercials here but it it is It's like if you wanna debate I'll I will debate you I don't really like the debating thing anyway Let's just talk Like you and I met up and we talked about the school choice stuff Yeah We're on the opposite sides of the same On some of And I came out of that conversation I didn't really change my mind but I appreciated the fact that we had a logical conversation and I was a- and you were interested in why I felt the way I felt And I think that's always the best way to If you're ever gonna get somebody to change their mind is to listen to how they feel about it be respectful about that and then explain why you feel the way you do put your side out there and let the uh marketplace of ideas win the day Yeah no I think that's right I mean I think There's there's this thing called uh sunk cost fallacy in economics which is like once somebody believes something or once they've invested in something It happens in in actual trading like marketplace where it's like "Hey I've invested in this stock and it's lost 50% of its value," and instead of getting out of it you're waiting for it to somehow redeem itself And I think the problem with modern debate is too many people go into it with a thought process that says "Under no circumstances am I ever gonna change my mind." And there's gotta be a willingness 1 to hear To your point hear what somebody else has to say and consider the possibility that they might be right and you might be wrong um if you're gonna have any kind of movement And I think that used to happen at a better in a better way before social media But social media has Like this conversation we're having obviously I guess on YouTube but um social media has made it such that you have an audience now So the stakes for changing your mind have gone up It's become harder to change your mind because that's seen as a pride hit or an ego hit Yeah Um right Versus if you're just having a one-on-one conversation you might go "Hey I hadn't thought of that that way." Yeah Well even If you look like you agree with the other person you lost Yeah Yeah Like you've you've lost some reputation Yeah You've lost part of your brand Um and I would say like even like the school choice conversation that we had Yeah like we disagreed on the idea of public to public um school choice like where a kid gets to leave one public school and go to another Um but we didn't disagree on the idea of like- Mm-hmm universal What's called Universal ESAs right Where like a portion of the money that students already are getting spent on by the state that would allow them to go to a private school Like I think we agreed on that part right We agreed with that So And that and that's what you You weren't aware that I did agree with you on that And we kind of came out of that It's like really it's just like if there's 2 3 thirds here there's just one third of this thing I don't agree with Yeah And so like but being able to have that conversation in a non-combative way it was like oh wait there actually is common ground Mm-hmm We just disagree on this one thing over here Well then there's an opportunity for us to get something done Yeah Well you know at the end of the day I'm a negotiator You know Yeah I'm a dealsman And uh- Well and that's the nature of that's the nature of life It's also the nature of of legislation is like you have to have trade-offs No no a- a- absolutely circling back to the the Jeremy England thing real quick So I just commented and I told the little the little story about this guy trying to argue with me I was like he started off with an insult Why would I you know grant him the ability to come on and you know just platform this guy Why would I make him famous You know what I mean So to say Not that I have not that my platform's that big but long story short And he never fails A coup- a couple people in the comments "Oh well Clay you don't You're scared to debate people You just like to argue with people." And you know what was funny is I've never been rude to a guest on this show ever Even people I've disagreed with Uh frankly it's hard to get people to come on here that disagree with me Uh but I've always been respectful I'm I I can't even think of a time that I've shouted anybody down Yeah Uh at all Maybe argue with some callers here and there that call very aggressively So it's like so it's kind of like this myth of because Clay is an outspoken conservative he must also be scared of debate uh because he doesn't interview Democrats Well f- bro where are these Democrats at that want to come on and actually debate You know so to say Well and at at some level it's like and you mentioned that you don't even like the word- Like straw man arguments that are put- Well you don't even like the word debate right And it's like well if the point of the conversation is a good faith exchange of ideas where people are open to having their minds changed those are conversations worth having If the point of the conversation is to get famous by making you look stupid- Yeah I mean no- nobody's ever had their mind changed by being made to feel stupid No Never Never Um they might give up They might well but they're at the end of the day they're angry about it Um and they're they're even more dug in to than where they started right And so yeah I mean again there's some there's some biblical truth here which is like you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar And if you want to have constructive conversations the best way to do that is not by assuming the other person is stupid but by trying to understand why they believe what they believe That's why Shawn and I have had such a good friendship that was supposed to kind of start off as a bit of a debate show We realized that we agreed on so much stuff for the most part And we also agreed that even when we get our angriest that we're gonna be adults Yeah And not get into a shouting match And in involving Shawn you know for those couple years on the show uh before they went off and did their own thing uh was really really good for me learning you know actually finally having somebody sitting across from me that we did disagree on some stuff And learning that for the most part we agreed on like real core principle things It's just kinda like these ancillary things that we disagree on Uh that was a very healthy uh growing point for me to be able to say okay maybe I'm not as bedrock about some of these things as I thought I was And then there are some things that it made me realize that I'm even more adamant about Well and there's something different when you're sitting down across from somebody versus preaching at them on the internet and you don't have to see them or meet them or whatnot right Like and you see that in other areas of life So like as an example the conversation around immigration and that's a complex conversation and I know your audience probably leans one direction pretty heavily But I would look at it and say okay a lot of people talk about mass deportation as an example of Mexican and South American immigrants But then you say well what about the fellow that serves your lunch when you go to this restaurant Or what about the the people that come and cut your grass or the- You start personalizing it And then you're like oh well I know so-and-so Yeah Right And then it becomes a lot harder to paint with such a broad brush I think that's true in the context of like republicans democrats liberals and conservatives too is like at some level if you just sit down with somebody who's like hardcore on the other side of you and you start talking about the things that they want out of life they want their kids to have better jobs than what they had right They want a house they want a car they want a safe community Like there are all these things that everybody wants like that everybody kind of views as like this is a measure of a good life And the real the real debate or the real sort of difference is how do we get there Yeah Um and like if you start from that vantage point where you don't assume that the other person is evil but they just have a different view on the way to get somewhere I think there's opportunity No I I agree and I talk about this a lot I'll come on here and I kind of paint with a broad brush but I do tell people "Look there's obviously you know nuance here." There's there's special exception I come in here and talk about democrats are evil but one of my best friends is a democrat You know Sure And Shawn and and and a buddy of mine Marvell I mean I could 2 off the top of my head 2 of my closest friends are are are democrats and think I'm wrong about a lot of stuff And that's fine Well you know we either talk about those things or we don't We talk about normal stuff Like we don't I don't ride in a car with my democrat friends and talk about politics the whole time you know We actually both like football Yeah Like there's real life stuff too that sometimes you kind of get lost in the arguing about policy and politics and culture war stuff that you forget that there's actually real life stuff that we enjoy as well And if you- Well I mean- find that common ground it makes life a lot easier A- and I don't mean to be overreligious on on your program but at some level it's like hey the Bible says that we were all created in the image of God That means democrats were created in the image of God too right The Bible says that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God That means that republicans have sinned too right And so like at some level recognizing that if you have that sort of scriptural worldview it means no matter whether you disagree on a question of like immigration or whatever it is that like that other person was created in the image of God and like you they suffer with sin.Um and if you have that kind of humility going into it I think it's a lot easier to to relate to people Yeah you know I use this analogy a lot um Christians are very hardcore about the the they love to say "Gay being gay is against the Bible it's that's against the Lord's words." I'm like "Well so is having sex before you get married." Y- uh absolutely And it was like so I that's why I'm never like I don't get on the the the gay religious thing I don't that's that's their sin let them worry about that I have my own sin and I'd be a hypocrite if I sat there and talked about uh who they have sex with It's no different than who I have sex with when I'm doing it outside of marriage My sin is just as equal as as that Uh my only problem with the gay stuff is like it's the LGBTQ agenda as I you know as I refer to it as You know the the the pride parades with all the near pornographic stuff in front of children and d- drag queen story time No that's that's a whole separate thing from just your everyday run of the mill gay people And like I don't think they're separate Unfortunately they get all dropped under this big umbrella and if you have a problem with this well you must also have a problem with the 2 gay guys No I don't at all 'cause again their sin is no different than my sin Yeah I mean look I I would look at it and say at some level what happens is that the the natural human tendency is to focus on sins that you don't struggle with right So if you're heterosexual it's easy enough to talk about the sin of homosexuality because it's not something that you ever struggle with but if you wanna get uncomfortable you know talk about uh whether or not Russ is overweight right Yeah Because then that's the sin of gluttony Mm-hmm Um or the 400 pound Baptist pastor pastor who clearly is living an unrepentant life when it comes to their their dietary habits Um again the sin of gluttony and so like there's a very natural tendency to to isolate those sins that we don't personally struggle with and to ignore the things that we personally struggle with Heterosexual lust is a great example of that too Yeah And so I I don't think as as a Christian I don't think you should uh ignore what the Bible says is sinful behavior but I do think that you should operate in a way where you don't ignore your own sin um certainly 'cause that it it is hypocritical It it is and that is the one thing when you do this for 2 hours a day you will find yourself contradicting yourself a lot and and so I've learned to avoid contradicting myself I just try to be an open book and say "Look I'm k- a complicated individual as we all are There's gonna be things that I I find abhorrent but then there's gonna be things that I do that you find abhorrent." You know I try to find the common ground and just admit yes I we can all be a bit hypocritical at times But if there's some obvious stuff I try to just b- be like "Look that's" I I try I people think I'm very judgey I'm really not I gotta let let people live but the the Overton window has moved over so much that if you just wanna be left alone or just let people live that makes you far one way or the other now because the Overton window has moved so far I don't l- yeah there the problem is that there are not a ton of people who still believe in sort of what I would call American pluralism which I think is actually one of our founding values is that people get to believe different stuff All right we're coming back from break Chicken spaghetti on Mondays beef tip Tuesday pork chop Wednesday spaghetti Thursday and catfish Fridays And McBee's blue plate lunch comes with 2 classic southern sides and cornbread or a roll McBee's specials are served every weekday from 11:00 to 2:00 McBee's buzzing the Rez since 1982 Welcome to the Clay Edwards Show More adrenaline You know it's a pretty interesting time to to be alive What's the saying M- may the times you live in be interesting We've accomplished that more test top throne for your morning drive When you know you've got a problem how about tell people and be honest What's going on Going to war on cancel culture and bringing the spotlight on issues and topics from around the city of Jackson I feel like Jackson is slapping and no one else wants to talk about it The whole system is corrupt and evil It's unreal And they don't care and and everybody knows it It's just sad And fights for the soul of America I'm gonna need y'all to explain to me what a positive solution is 'cause you positive solutions only people have been in charge for a while now and I'm too many positive solutions You never Strap in Turn up the volume and get ready Jackson for unfiltered no sugar added talk radio It's award-winning podcaster Clay Boom shakalaka boom It's hour 2 of the most incendiary show on the R-A-D-I-O This is the Clay at Birth show here live on 103.9 FM W-Y-A-B We are streaming in stunning HD worldwide @SaveJXN on Facebook YouTube and X and we're on Rumble at SaveJXN If you're watching on any of those platforms hit the Like button hit the Share button if you're on Facebook If you're watching on YouTube drop a comment hit the Like It truly truly does help us with the algorithm If you like it they assume more people who watch the things that you like will like it too and they'll recommend these videos to people on YouTube which helps us grow And it doesn't cost you a penny to hit the Like button So please please please smash the Like button as the YouTubers- Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe And uh we did We we gained over 500 subscribers on YouTube last month which I know in the big picture that may not sound like a lot but that's 500 new people that subscribed to a little old show out of Jackson Mississippi We're almost at 10,000 YouTube subs here 5 years into this and it is a it's taken a while There's not been no big one viral moment that's got us anywhere It's been just chipping away and chipping away and chipping away And I do think we'll eventually get that We'll we'll have that moment when we get you know X amount of followers and enough people see something that resonates with them But uh guys please uh do hit that Like button This segment is going to be brought to you by our friends over at You know I've been talking about it all week I want to drive it home It starts today round one the PGA Champion- Not the PGA Championship the Sanderson Farms Championship which is the only PGA event in Mississippi But not only is it the only PGA event it's the only major sporting professional sporting event in the state of Mississippi I know we can argue that college football is now a pro sport but And it always has been It has been for quite some time Yeah it always has been But uh it's the only legitimate pro-sport uh event in the state of Mississippi and it's right here in Jackson For all the negative things about Jackson this is one of the shining uh house on the hill you know beautiful moments that we have here in this city It's something we really should all wrap our arms around and get out and support if you want to keep it whether it's Jackson central Mississippi whatever there at the Country Club of Jackson And uh the first round starts today I'm going to be out there Saturday My buddy Fred Shanks my buddy Sutton my buddy Michael we're all going We got some Michelob Ultra Pavilion passes which you can get those as well at PGA I'm sorry at sandersonfarmschampionship.com And you can buy tickets You can buy the uh the Mick Ultra Pavilion It's kind of like their VIP thing There's going to be a bunch of TVs there You can miss You can catch all the college football action the golf action It's a great socializing event Just gonna be a grand time The weather's gonna be beautiful Come join us If you can't do Saturday get you some tickets for Sunday I think you just buy the ticket and go whatever day you want They're just Whatever ticket's good for any day but it's only one You You got to If you're going 2 days you got to buy 2 tickets So just FYI It's not a weekend pass Uh I do believe they do offer those But uh it's not too expensive Uh but you know it is a nice event and it does it does cost a few bucks But I think if you buy a ticket and a VIP pavilion pass it's about 130 bucks for both Which if you bought a concert ticket lately and you try to do a VIP upgrade you're probably talking about at least 500 bucks So for the money it's a really really good deal And uh parking's off site there at North Park You park there They they they bring a shuttle bus back and forth They'll keep them running all day You're not going to have to wait long to get to or from your vehicle The weather's going to be beautiful Come out there Hang out with me Come say hey And uh Saturday wear your favorite college colors It's University Day So going to be fun Russ you going to get by Uh we're going to an event tonight uh tied to it Um kind of their opening event and uh- A sponsorship party Yeah So we'll we'll do a little bit of that tonight and we'll see I I might Uh it's a good event And they- I'm trying to angle some tickets for the sponsorship party I I've been I've been working some angles that have not worked out so far But I would love to go to the sponsorship party Well we we can talk about it off air maybe Maybe so All right Well uh look so we got Russ Latino here Magnolia Tribune one of my favorite journalists in the state if not my personal favorite And Magnolia Tribune does just phenomenal work And Russ grabbed a hold of something like a dog on a bone the other day And I'm really glad he did because he brings a level of credibility and a level of scrutiny to to this topic that I think needs to be And he shines a light on it uh as one of the most influential journalists and policymakers in the state And it's the In the wake of Charlie death Charlie Kirk's death and that's why I wanted to really get Russ's opinion on that and kind of his thoughts on the whole thing before we dove into this These TPUSA chapters which is Turning Point USA for those that don't know Charlie Kirk's foundation that he founded And they Man they The growth has been stupendous since his death Thousands and thousands of new charters popping up And in these high schools where we really need to be trying to win the culture war uh just like colleges man We if we can get ahold of them at high schools they go to colleges you know kind of ready to fight the fight or knowing how to fight it And Clinton for some reason has decided that uh it's a no-go there So I've kind of laid the groundwork for you here man Tell us kind of what happened So let let me start by saying that um obviously what happened to Charlie Kirk was a tragedy a horrible tragedy I didn't always agree with him Um and I didn't always agree with TPUSA I did agree fundamentally with the idea that we should be having open debate on these issues um and that open debate is good And so-What happened was after his death to your point thousands and thousands of new chapters high school and college of TPUSA um started to form Um a couple of Saturdays ago so uh 2plus Saturdays ago um a teacher at Clinton High School sent out an email to a handful of students um and that email essentially said "Hey I know you're interested in this sort of stuff because you've talked to me in the past about wanting to start some kinda club that focuses on patriotism and sort of the exchange of ideas and debate Um what do you think about potentially doing a TPUSA chapter?" That email said explicitly this would have to be student-led Um you would have to come up with the names of other students who are interested in spearheading the effort to start this thing And there was a plan of sorts put together Some of these kids started sharing it with their friends they came back with names of people who wanted to be involved And essentially they planned to get together the following Tuesday September 16th to have a planning meeting with the teacher Well our sources say that that email got around to a wide group of people Um and one of the- the sets of hands that it ended up in was a set of parents who were very much opposed to the idea of there being a TPUSA chapter on Clinton's campus Um and that was communicated to school officials So what happens then is that on Monday September 15th the teacher that afternoon sends out an email to these students who are ready to meet the next day just saying "There will be no meeting tomorrow." Um the following day one of the students follows up and says "Well when are we gonna reschedule it?" 'Cause they're excited about doing this Um and she emails back and says "There won't be a rescheduling you need to go talk to the principal about this." Well the backstory of those few days and the way that we got ahold of this was that we got contacted by 2 sources that said "Hey look some students wanted to start this TPUSA chapter and they got shut down by the school administration." Um and we were told that there were 3 reasons given by the administration The first was that this was too political and "We don't do political clubs it's gonna be divisive." Um the second explanation which came later was "Well this was teacher-led and because it's teacher-led it violates a district policy." And then once students voiced "Hey no actually we want this," the third explanation that was given was "Hey it's too late in the year to start a new club." And so all of this unfolds- We're a month into school we're a month into school So all of this unfolds and you start to see And the only way we know this is 'cause we did public record requests on Clinton High School Um you start to see emails directly from students to the principal of Clinton High School Dr Brian Fordinberry saying "We want this." To the point that some of them are literally pressing him and saying "Tell me why we can't have this In writing please tell me why we are unable to have a Turning Point USA club." Um we get ahold of the story break it on uh social media And the response that we got from folks who live in Clinton was "Hey we called and talked to the principal and he said the reason they can't have it is 'cause they started it too late in the year." Well that night I start doing some research All right let's figure out is that true Is there a policy in place for this Read the entire Clinton Han- School handbook Nothing in there about when clubs can start Um read the entirety of the school district's policies Couldn't find anything So I wrote the principal and the- the school board attorney and just said "Hey look I've looked at all this stuff I can't find any policies that- that says that this can't be done this time of year." Um and we had posed a bunch of different questions public record requests whatnot Well they come back um the following day and release a statement that basically says "We didn't actually shut it down We just told them that it couldn't be teacher-led and that it couldn't be this year." Which is shutting it down Yeah Um and so anyway we- we've been able to get together all these public records It really looks from my vantage point like the 2 reasons they gave are pretense first of all students individually went to the principal and said "We want this club." ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... all of the documents ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... since 2019 The Tigers are playing well against Alabama this season but they aren't winning their first game of the season The Tigers were able to win their first game against ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... Alabama on September 19th 2020 They had a 31-0 victory at home against Alabama The Tigers won their first game of the season against Alabama on September 19th 2020 The Tigers have been playing well since then but they haven't been able to win their first game of the season The Tigers were able to win their first game against Alabama on September 19th 2020 They had a 31-0 victory at home against Alabama The Tigers have been playing well since then but they haven't been able the season The Tigers were able to win their first game against Alabama on September 19th 2020 They So they make good homemade ranch at Burgers Blues Barbecue is my point Get by check them out today Madison by the way the Madison location is open right now serving breakfast Dogwood in Flowood or downtown Brandon BurgersBlues.com to book a food truck check out the catering menu or to order and have your food delivered You can do it all in one great location BurgersBlues.com Website looks phenomenal too by the way Pictures of almost every item if you wanna know what it looks like That goes a long way Yeah You know Yeah no it does Um good websites good pictures all that stuff uh is how you market stuff right Gets people salivating We eat with our eyes Uh uh yep I think that's true Our eyes and our nose Yeah Right And my my eyes are often bigger than my appetite- Well as they say Yeah no I think that's part of the problem right Yeah absolutely So Russ wha- uh your your opinion do you just think this is political with TPUSA So let me say this for uh uh to start is I think whenever Clinton put out its statement in response to our original reporting they basically said it's incorrect that we tried to shut it down but then they explained why they had shut it down so it was an odd statement The other thing that I saw that bothered me almost more than the statement was the way that the media reacted which was just to just accept at face value with no critical thinking the explanation that was given Right So they're saying "Hey the reason we didn't do this is because it was teacher-led," while simultaneously admitting in the same statement that students independently came to us and asked for Right Mm-hmm Um so one that doesn't hold water And then they said "Yeah but we explained to those students that our 'practice' was to a- approve things this year and then h- allow them to go into effect next year." I asked the question point blank "Well what does that mean that next year there'll be a Turning Point USA chapter?" And they didn't answer that question But more importantly that policy does not exist in writing Right It doesn't exist anywhere um based on our investigation And so neither one of those things hold water And if neither one of those things hold water there must be something else And our sources said that the something else was the fact that you had parents that were angry about the idea of it coming on campus and a principal who just said "Hey this is gonna be too political which is unconstitutional." So w- what I would say Russ's opinion reading between the lines looking at all the facts I know the sources that we've talked to I think the principal panicked um and was trying to find a way to keep the peace which I can respect at some level which is "Hey we don't wanna rock the boat here We don't wanna create tension We want a unified campus This is gonna create some tension so I'm gonna find a way to say no." The problem with that is yes it violates the Constitution yes it violates federal laws yes it violates state law but there's a bigger sort of fundamental problem which is the way to deal with the fact that we can't have constructive debate in this country is not to have no debate at all It's to get better at having constructive debate Yes And that starts at an early age And so if we can create a system where yes there can be a Turning Point USA chapter and simultaneously yes there can be some sort of progressive chapter on campus and students get to decide who they wanna associate with and we create an atmosphere where hopefully those groups are talking to each other engaging with each other civilly we're setting ourselves up for much better conversations in the future than what we're seeing in our country amongst adults right now And so to me instead of saying "I don't wanna rock the boat," the answer should be "How do we create an environment where people get to associate with who they want they get to say what they want and we encourage students to do so in a way that is civil?" Uh I would love to see a list of the current of the current groups on the campus And w- we've asked for that right Um I I know that there are uh at least social organizations on campus that like you know some conservatives would find uh objectionable Um you know there's a gay straight alliance club as an example I I was gonna say like it would bet but bet the farm that there's an LGBTQ alliance of some sort on there uh there's gonna be some type of civil social justice Black pro-Black group and all those are fine as long as you have the ying to the yang And and and I would say great I would say great right Yeah Um it's it what you don't wanna do is a situation where you're having viewpoint discrimination And even like the other 2 uh you know arguments which is like "Hey this is teacher-led." Well 1 I don't think that's true based on the documents that we've gotten and I don't think it's true based on their own statement at some level But the Constitution doesn't say you can't be inspired by an adult if you wanna create a club on campus right Yeah Um people can get ideas from other people And and candidly every club on campus is required to have a sponsor So one man's sponsor is another person's teacher-led group right Yeah Um and then on this this timing thing is even if that policy did exist you would have to show that it had been consistently applied and it would still have to be tailored in a way legally that it didn't deprive people of their rights So you could say like a senior uh is on campus and they're saying "Hey you're making me wait until next year I won't be here next year I'm gonna graduate." Uh that was gonna be what I was gonna say We got a great comment here on X from uh Bourbon Diplomacy which may be the best name on X by the way That's a great name It says uh "Clinton School District attends school almost year round now so when is the correct time?" Yeah I mean again what they put out through surrogates after we did our initial reporting was "Hey we've got this policy and they're in violation," but can't even point to to something in writing I mean Yeah It it seems pretextual when you can't show something in writing And when you ignore a a public record request that explicitly asked for who are the other clubs When were they formed When were they allowed to be on campus They should be able to tell us all of that unless they're just not keeping records of what clubs are on campus which would suggest that they don't actually have a policy Right So what is the next step Is uh is Magnolia Tribune uh to the point of a lawsuit Well we wouldn't be the ones to file a lawsuit right A lawsuit would have to be filed uh either by some of the students who want the club which would be the the most likely scenario if they wanted to push that far or uh you know if there were adults on campus faculty that that thought that their rights had been infringed upon at some level Um my suspicion is that neither one of those things will happen because people don't like the idea of suing their own school Um it takes a rare person Like you'll occasionally see lawsuits percolate That's like one out of a thousand people has the courage to say "Hey I'm gonna do something like this." Is is Clinton in ISD or is it part of Hinds County I should know that I don't off the top of my head Uh- Yeah yeah no I do know that 'cause they they've got their own superintendent Yeah yeah it's independent Okay I I wasn't sure I I knew I know Pearl is and I and I grew up going to Byron which is part of uh Hinds County so I just wasn't sure if Clinton was part of that or not Never actually Yeah Never needed to know that So I mean a lawsuit is poten- is possible I I don't necessarily see that You know I I think the the most likely scenario if if the high school does the right thing they're not gonna come out and admit that they violated the Constitution No government official's ever gonna be like "Hey I violated the Constitution federal law and state law." What you hear instead is the kinda stuff that you heard here which is "Oh we wanted to help you but you didn't follow this unwritten process that we expected you to follow." So they're not gonna do that But if I were the district if I was on that board of of the school uh or if I was the principal I'd be trying to figure out a way to get it started Yeah there's gotta be a way to put the paste back in the tube a little bit here before it spirals outta control I mean you're sitting here like- Well it got it got mentioned on CNN That's where I was going yeah Um so so you know Abby Phillips' program Newsline on CNN it got mentioned there Uh I expect that there will be other national outlets that will be covering this Um there's an opportunity for Clinton to do the right thing and recognize that kids deserve the right to have this kinda club on campus if they want it Um for Magnolia Tribune's part we're not giving up right We still have several public record requests that we don't feel like have been answered uh and that weren

This week, catch a movie in Downtown Disney, the Evil Queen is coming to a tiki mug, cast members are recognized as Disney Legacy Award recipients, a new place outside of the parks to enjoy some nighttime entertainment, celebrate Thanksgiving with some characters, we talk to Creative Director Brandon from Spirit Jersey, and more! Please support the show if you can by going to https://www.dlweekly.net/support/. Check out all of our current partners and exclusive discounts at https://www.dlweekly.net/promos. News: Downtown Disney is the place to be in October! The shopping district will be hosting movie nights, presented by M&M's. The movies will be shown at 7PM at the Downtown Disney LIVE! stage on October 1, 8, 15, 22, and 29th. During the movie nights, a limited-time Disney Wonderful World of Sweets cart will be open offering treats for the movie. – https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2025/09/24/why-every-fan-will-be-running-to-downtown-disney-next-month/ Yet another tiki mug is coming to the Disneyland Resort for the Halloween season! The new mug features the Evil Queen on one side and the Old Hag on the other. The Old Hag is holding a poison apple! The first opportunity to get this tiki mug will be through mobile order for pickup at the Disneyland Hotel Grand Ballroom starting at 6am Disneyland Time on October 1st. Pickup windows will be from 4pm to 9pm. The mug designer, Artist Florian Bertmer will be on hand to sign mugs on October 1st, starting at 5pm. The second chance will be at Trader Sam's Enchanted Tiki Bar on October 2nd. There is a limit of 2 per transaction, while supplies last. – https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2025/09/22/why-disney-tiki-mug-fans-are-marking-their-calendars-for-october-1st/ https://www.micechat.com/424379-disneyland-update-halloween-christmas-price-cuts/ A new group of cast members from Disneyland have been recognized as Walt Disney Legacy Award recipients. Only 1% of all cast members receive this prestigious award. This year, a well-known cast member joined the ranks. Steve Finley, best known as the cast member who drives the fire engine on Main Street, was recognized. Joining Steve is Hank Ameen, who we have spoken about previously as being the longest tenured cast member at Disneyland. Alondra Chavez Castaneda from Main Gate Reception, and Carol Vincent a Merchandise Hostess at Company D were also added to the ranks. – https://disneyparksblog.com/dlr/legacy-award-recipients-at-disneyland-resort/ A new location to catch the Halloween Screams fireworks is coming this Halloween season. On select nights, visitors to the Disneyland Resort can experience the nighttime spectacular from the Pixar Place Hotel rooftop deck. There is no requirement to be a guest at the hotel, and there is no purchase required. The soundtrack for Halloween Screams will be played on the deck during the show. – https://www.micechat.com/424379-disneyland-update-halloween-christmas-price-cuts/ We always talk about the confectionary display in the lobby of the Grand Californian Hotel and Spa. This year, the Disneyland Hotel is getting in on the act. A 5-foot-tall Mickey pumpkin, made of 60 pounds of chocolate, 55 pounds of rice cereal, 30 pounds of marshmallows, and 120 founds of fondant, sits in the lobby. – https://www.laughingplace.com/disney-parks/mickey-pumpkin-confectionery-disneyland-hotel/ Weeklyteers who might want to have Thanksgiving with their extended Disney family have an opportunity. Goofy's Kitchen is hosting a special Thanksgiving Meal. The meal features a Thanksgiving Day buffet for brunch, or dinner on November 27. Booking opens up for this on October 9th. Visit the link in the show notes for all the details. – https://www.laughingplace.com/disney-parks/goofys-kitchen-thanksgiving-2025/ A popular location at the Grand Californian is now delayed until early 2026. Napa Rose has been undergoing renovations since April of this year, and was originally scheduled to reopen this fall. When the location reopens, it will feature expanded counters to watch the chef's in action, natural textures such as reclaimed oak flooring and columns, hand-pinged artisan metals, leathers, deep cabernet colors, and an eye-catching chandelier. The patio will be expanded with more seating and two fireplaces, allowing guests to be surrounded by soft lighting and lush greenery. – https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2025/09/24/disney-delays-reopening-of-a-popular-restaurant/ TriviaLand: Ghost Host Voice Actress: https://www.instagram.com/p/DPIZ1UbkYlA/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ%3D%3D SnackChat: The Pizza Counter – https://disneyland.disney.go.com/dining/downtown-disney-district/the-pizza-counter/menus/lunch-and-dinner/ https://dadsguidetowdw.com/pizza-counter Earl of Sandwich Tavern – https://disneyland.disney.go.com/dining/downtown-disney-district/earl-of-sandwich-tavern/menus/breakfast/ Discussion Topic: Creative Director of Spirit Jerseys Brandon Ptasznik https://www.spiritjersey.com/ Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Episode summary Joe and Mary dive into how platform censorship and shifting algorithms have reshaped psychedelic media, why DoubleBlind moved to a “newsletter-first” model, and what that's revealed about true audience engagement. They reflect on the post-2024 MDMA decision headwinds, state-level policy moves (wins and losses), and how funding, politics, and culture continue to reconfigure the field. They also explore alternatives to alcohol, chronic pain research, reciprocity around iboga/ibogaine, and lessons from PS25 (MAPS' Psychedelic Science 2025). Highlights & themes From platforms to inboxes: Social and search suppression (IG/FB/Google) throttled harm-reduction journalism; DoubleBlind's pivot to email dramatically improved reach and engagement. Post-MDMA decision reality: Investment cooled; Mary frames it as painful but necessary growth—an ecosystem “airing out” rather than a catastrophic pop. Policy pulse: Mixed year—some state measures stalled (e.g., MA), others advanced (e.g., NM; ongoing Colorado process). Rescheduling cannabis may add complexity more than clarity. Censorship paradox: Suppressing education makes use less safe; independent outlets need community support to keep harm-reduction info visible. Chronic pain & long COVID: Emerging overlaps and training efforts (e.g., Psychedelics & Pain communities) point beyond a psychiatry-only frame. Alcohol alternatives: Low-dose or occasional psychedelic use can shift habits for some; Mary stresses individual context and support beyond any single substance. Reciprocity & iboga: Rising interest (including from right-leaning funders) must include Indigenous consultation and fair benefit-sharing; pace of capitalism vs. community care is an active tension. PS25 field notes: Smaller, more manageable vibe than 2023; fewer “gold-rush” expectations; in-person dialogue beats online flame wars. Notable mentions DoubleBlind: Newsletter-first publishing; nurturing new writers and reported stories. Psychedelics & Pain Association / Clusterbusters: Community-driven models informing care and research (cluster headache protocols history). Books & media: Body Autonomy (Synergetic Press anthology); Joanna Kempner's work on cluster headaches - Psychedelic Outlaws; Lucy Walker's forthcoming iboga film. Compounds to watch: LSD (under-studied relative to MDMA), 2C-B, 5-MeO-DMT (synthetic focus), and broader Shulgin-inspired families.   Mary Carreon: [00:00:00] Okay, I'm gonna send it to my dad because he wants to know. Here Joe Moore: we go. Yeah, send it over. So, hi everybody. We're live Joe here with Mary Anne, how you doing today? Mary Carreon: I'm great Joe. How are you? Joe Moore: Lovely. I actually never asked you how to pronounce your last name does say it right? Mary Carreon: Yes, you did. You said it perfectly Joe Moore: lovely. Joe Moore: Um, great. So it's been a bit, um, we are streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X and Kick, I guess. Yeah. Kick meta. Meta doesn't let me play anymore. Um, Mary Carreon: you're in forever. Timeout. I got it. I got it. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. I think they found a post the other day from 2017. They didn't like, I'm like, oh cool. Like neat, you Mary Carreon: know, you know. Mary Carreon: Yeah. That happened to me recently, actually. Uh, I had a post taken down from 2018 about, uh, mushroom gummies and yeah, it was taken down and I have strikes on my account now. So Joe Moore: Do you get the thing where they ask you if you're okay? Mary Carreon: Yes, with, but like with my searches though, [00:01:00] like if I search something or, or someone's account that has, uh, like mushroom or psychedelic or LSD or something in it, they'll be like, mm-hmm are you okay? Mary Carreon: And then it recommends getting help. So Joe Moore: it's like, to be fair, I don't know if I'm okay, but Yeah, you're like, probably not. I don't really want your help. Meta. Yeah. Mary Carreon: You're like, I actually do need help, but not from you. Thanks. Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: So not from the techno fascists. Joe Moore: Oh, good lord. Yeah. Uh, we'll go there. Joe Moore: I'm sure. Mary Carreon: I know. I just like really dove right there. Sorry. Yeah. All right, so let's, Joe Moore: um, before we go, let's give people like a bit of, you know, high kicks on, on who is Mary, where you working these days and what are you doing? Mary Carreon: Yeah, thank you. My name is Mary Carryon and I am forever and first and foremost a journalist. Mary Carreon: I have been covering, I say the plant legalization spaces for the past decade. It's, it's been nine and a half years. Uh, on January 3rd it will be [00:02:00] 10 years. And I got my start covering cannabis, uh, at OC Weekly. And from there went to High Times, and from there went to Mary Jane, worked for Snoop Dogg. And then, uh, I am now. Mary Carreon: Double blind. And I have become recently, as of this year, the editor in chief of Double Blind, and that's where I have been currently sinking my teeth into everything. So currently, you know, at this moment I'm an editor and I am basically also a curator. So, and, and somebody who is a, uh, I guess an observer of this space more than anything these days. Mary Carreon: Um, I'm not really reporting in the same way that I was. Um, but still I am helping many journalists tell stories and, uh, I feel kind of like a story midwife in many ways. Just like helping people produce stories and get the, get the quotes, get the angles that need to be discussed, get the sentences structures right, and, um, uh, helping [00:03:00] sometimes in a visionary kind of, uh, mindset. Mary Carreon: So yeah, that's what I'm doing these days. Joe Moore: Oh, there it is. Oh, there you are. Love that. And um, you know, it's important to have, um, editors who kind of really get it from a lot of different angles. I love that we have a lot of alignment on this kind of, and the drug war thing and kind of let's, uh, hopefully start developing systems that are for people. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna just say that. Yeah, absolutely. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. Joe Moore: So, um, yeah, I almost 10 years in January. That's great. We um, it's so crazy that it's been that long. I think we just turned nine and a half, so we're maybe just a few, a few months shorter than your I love it. Plant medicine reporting career. Joe Moore: That's great. I love it. Um, yeah, so I think. I think one of the first times we chatted, [00:04:00] um, I think you were doing a piece about two cb Do you, do you have any recollection of doing a piece on two cb? Mary Carreon: I do, yes. Yes. Wait, I also remember hitting you up during an Instagram live and I was like, are you guys taking any writers? Mary Carreon: And you guys were like writers, I mean, maybe depending on the writer. Joe Moore: And I was like, I was like, I dunno how that works. Mary Carreon: Like me. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. It was fun. It was fun to work with people like yourself and like get pieces out there. And eventually we had an awesome editor for a bit and that was, that was really cool to be able to like support young startup writers who have a lot of opinions and a lot of things to point out. Joe Moore: There's so much happening. Um, there was so much fraud in like wave one. Of kind of the psychedelic investment hype. There's still some, but it's lesser. Um, and it's really a fascinating space still. Like changing lives, changing not just lives, right? Like our [00:05:00] perspective towards nearly everything, right? Joe Moore: Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because the space has matured. It's evolved. It's different than it was even, what a, I mean, definitely nine years ago, but even five years ago, even four years ago, even last year, things are different. The landscape is different than it was a year ago. Mary Carreon: And I, it's, it's interesting to see the politics of things. It's interesting to see who has money these days given like how hard it is just to kind of survive in this space. And it's interesting just to. Bear witness to all of this going down because it really is a once in a lifetime thing. Nothing is gonna look the same as it does now, as it, uh, then it will like in a, in a year from now or anything. Mary Carreon: So it's really, yeah. It's interesting to take account of all of this Joe Moore: That's so real. Uh, maybe a little [00:06:00] too real, like it's serious because like with everything that's going on from, um, you know, governance, governments, ai Yes. Drug policy shifts. Drug tech shifts, yes. There's so much interesting movement. Um, yes. Joe Moore: You, you know, you, you kind of called it out and I think it's really actually worth discussing here since we're both here on the air together, like this idea that the psychedelic market, not idea, the lived experience of the psychedelic market having shifted substantially. And I, I, I think there's a lot of causes. Joe Moore: But I've never had the opportunity to really chat with you about this kind of like interesting downturn in money flowing into the space. Mm-hmm. Have you thought about it? Like what might the causes be? I'm sure you have. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, I have. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, it's hard. Well, I don't know. I am really not trying to point fingers and that's not what I'm [00:07:00] trying to do here. Mary Carreon: But I mean, I think a lot of people were really hopeful that the FDA decision last June, not last June, the previous June, a year ago, 2024, June was going to open the floodgates in terms of funding, in terms of, um. In terms of mostly funding, but also just greater opportunities for the space and, uh, greater legitimacy granted to the psychedelic medicine space. Mary Carreon: Mm. And for those who might not know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the, uh, FDA decision to reject, uh, MDMA assisted therapy and, um, that whole, that whole thing that happened, I'm sure if it, you didn't even have to really understand what was going on in order to get wind of that wild situation. Mary Carreon: Um, so, so maybe, yeah. You probably know what I'm talking about, but I, I do think that that had a great impact on this space. Do I think it was detrimental to this space? [00:08:00] I don't think so. We are in a growth spurt, you know, like we are growing and growing pains happen when you are evolving and changing and learning and figuring out the way forward. Mary Carreon: So I think it was kind of a natural process for all of this and. If things had gone forward like while, yeah, there probably would be more money, there would be greater opportunity in this space for people wanting to get in and get jobs and make a living and have a life for themselves in this, in this world. Mary Carreon: I don't know if it was, I don't know if it would necessarily be for the betterment of the space in general for the long term. I think that we do have to go through challenges in order for the best case scenarios to play out in the future, even though that's difficult to say now because so many of us are struggling. Mary Carreon: So, but I, but I have hope and, and that statement is coming from a place of hope for the future of this space and this culture. Joe Moore: Yeah. It's, um, I'm with [00:09:00] you. Like we have to see boom bust cycles. We have to see growth and contraction just like natural ecosystems do. Mary Carreon: Absolutely, absolutely. It has to be that way. Mary Carreon: And if it's not that way, then ifs, if. It's, it like what forms in place of that is a big bubble or like a, a hot air balloon that's inevitably going to pop, which, like, we are kind of experiencing that. But I think that the, I think that the, um, the, the air letting out of the balloon right now is a much softer experience than it would be if everything was just like a green light all the way forward, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: So, Joe Moore: right. And there's, there's so many factors. Like I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, metas censorship like we were talking about before. Yes. Other big tech censorship, right? Mm-hmm. SEO shifts. Mary Carreon: Oh. Um, yes, absolutely. Also, uh, there were some pretty major initiatives on the state level that did not pass also this past year that really would've also kind of [00:10:00] helped the landscape a little bit. Mary Carreon: Um. In terms of creating jobs, in terms of creating opportunities for funding, in terms of having more, uh, like the perception of safer money flow into the space and that, you know, those, those things didn't happen. For instance, the measure for in Massachusetts that didn't go through and just, you know, other things that didn't happen. Mary Carreon: However, there have been really good things too, in terms of, uh, legalization or various forms of legalization, and that's in New Mexico, so we can't, you know, forget that there, and we also can't forget just the movement happening in Colorado. So there are really great things happening and the, the movement is still moving forward. Mary Carreon: Everything is still going. It's just a little more difficult than maybe it could have been Joe Moore: right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yes. But also, we Mary Carreon: can't forget this censorship thing. The censorship thing is a horse shit. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cuss, but it is, [00:11:00] but it is Joe Moore: calling it out and it's important to say this stuff. Joe Moore: And you know, folks, if you want to support independent media, please consider supporting Doubleblind and psychedelics today. From a media perspective, absolutely. We wanna wanna put as much out as we can. Yes. The more supporters we have, the more we can help all of you understand what's happening and yes. Joe Moore: Getting you to stay safer. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole difficulty with the censorship is that psychedelics today, and Doubleblind for instance, but also Lucid News, also other, uh, other influencers, other creators in the space, they like. What all of us are doing is putting out information that is ultimately creating a safer user experience. Mary Carreon: And so with the censorship, we are not able to do so anymore, which creates actually a lot of danger. So. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. The censorship is difficult, and if you are somebody who posts about psychedelics, I know that you know this and I am preaching to the choir. Joe Moore: Yeah. So can you talk a [00:12:00] little bit about you all at Double Blind made a major shift in the last number of months towards, uh, kind of not necessarily putting everything out there and, and kind of like, um, actually I don't even know the language you use. Joe Moore: What's the, what's the language you use for the kind of model shift you took on? Mary Carreon: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's been a wild shift. It's been a wild shift. Um, what we are currently doing is we went to a newsletter first model, which instead of just posting onto a website for everyone to see, and then, um, you know, hopefully getting SEO hits and also posting on their, then posting those stories onto Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and hoping to get traffic through social media. Mary Carreon: Uh, we decided that that was no longer working for us because it wasn't, um, because the censorship is so bad on, on social media, like on Instagram, for instance, and Facebook and Twitter, well, less on Twitter, [00:13:00] but still, nonetheless on social media, the censorship is so bad. And also the censorship exists on Google. Mary Carreon: When you Google search how to take mushrooms, double blinds is not even on. You know, our guide is not on the first page. It's like, you know, way the heck, way the heck down there. Maybe page 2, 3, 4, 5. I don't know. But, um, the issue, the issue with that, or, or the reason why rather that it's that way is because Google is prioritizing, um, like rehabilitation centers for this information. Mary Carreon: And also they are prioritizing, uh, medical information. So, like WebMD for instance. And all of these organizations that Google is now prioritizing are u are, are, are, are organizations that see psychedelic use through the lens of addiction or through drug drug abuse. So [00:14:00] again, you know, I don't know, take it for how you want to, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna tell anybody like what is the right way to use their substances or whatever. Mary Carreon: However, it's really important to have the proper harm reduction resources and tools available. Uh, just readily available, not five pages down on a Google search. So anyways, all of that said double blind was our traffic was way down. And it was looking very bleak for a while. Just we were getting kicked off of Instagram. Mary Carreon: We weren't getting any traffic from social media onto our website, onto our stories. It was a, it was a vicious kind of cycle downward, and it wasn't really working. And there was a moment there where Doubleblind almost shut down as a result of these numbers because there's a, like you, a media company cannot sustain itself on really low page views as a result. Mary Carreon: So what we [00:15:00] decided to do was go to a newsletter first model, which relies on our email list. And basically we are sending out newsletters three days a week of new original content, mostly, uh, sometimes on Wednesdays we repost an SEO story or something like that. Um, to just to engage our audience and to work with our audience that way, and to like to actually engage our audience. Mary Carreon: I cannot emphasize that enough because on Instagram and on Facebook, we were only reaching like, I don't know, not that many people, like not that many people at all. And all of that really became obvious as soon as we started sending out to our email list. And as soon as we did that, it was wild. How many, how many views to the website and also how many just open like our open rate and our click through rate were showing how our audience was reacting to our content. Mary Carreon: In other words. [00:16:00] Social media was not a good, in, like, was not a good indicator of how our content was being received at all because people kind of weren't even receiving it. So going to the newsletter first model proved to be very beneficial for us and our numbers. And also just reaching our freaking audience, which we were barely doing, I guess, on social media, which is, which is wild, you know, for, for a, an account that has a lot of followers, I forget at this exact moment, but we have a ton, double blind, has a ton of followers on, on Instagram. Mary Carreon: We were, we, we get like 500 likes or, you know, maybe like. I don't know. If you're not looking at likes and you're looking at views, like sometimes we get like 16 K views, which, you know, seems good, but also compared to the amount of followers who follow us, it's like not really that great. And we're never reaching new, like a new audience. Mary Carreon: We're always reaching the same audience too, [00:17:00] which is interesting because even with our news, with our, with our email list, we are still reaching new people, which is, which says just how much more fluid that space is. Mm-hmm. And it's because it's, because censorship does not at least yet exist in our inboxes. Mary Carreon: And so therefore email is kind of like the underground, if you will, for this kind of content and this type of material journalism, et cetera. So, so yeah. So it, it, it has been a massive shift. It is required a lot of changes over at double blind. Everything has been very intense and crazy, but it has been absolutely worth it, and it's really exciting that we're still here. Mary Carreon: I'm so grateful that Double-Blind is still around, that we are still able to tell stories and that we are still able to work with writers and nurture writers and nurture the storytelling in this space because it needs to evolve just the same way that the industry and the [00:18:00] culture and everything else is evolving. Joe Moore: Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on like the, when I watch our Instagram account, like, um, I haven't seen the number change from 107 K for two years. Mary Carreon: Absolutely. Same. And, um, same. Joe Moore: Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there's certain kinds of content that could do fine. I think, uh, psychedelic attorney, Robert Rush put up a comment, um, in response to Jack Coline's account getting taken down, um, that had some good analysis, um. Joe Moore: Of the situation. Go ahead. You had No, Mary Carreon: no, I'm just like, you know, I can't, when, when journalists are getting kicked off of these, of these platforms for their stories, for their reported stories, that's like, that is a massive red flag. And that's all I have to say. I mean, we could go into more, more details on that, but that is a [00:19:00] huge red flag. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, for sure. The, I, yeah. And like I'm sure he'll get it back. I'm sure that's not for good, but I think he did. Okay, great. Mary Carreon: I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did. Joe Moore: Yeah. So thank you. Shout out to Jack. Yeah, thanks Jack. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's no one with that kind of energy out there. Joe Moore: Um, and I'm excited to see what happens over time with him. Yeah. How he'll unfold. Absolutely unfold. Oh yeah. It's like, um. Crushing the beat. Mary Carreon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially the political, the political beat. Like, there's no, there's few people who are really tackling that specific sector, which is like mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: So exciting for a journalist. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so model shifting, like we all have to like, adapt in new ways. Kyle and I are still trying to figure out what we're gonna do. Like maybe it is newsletter first. Like I, I realized that I hadn't been writing for [00:20:00] years, which is problematic, um, in that like, I have a lot of things to say. Mary Carreon: Totally. Joe Moore: And nobody got to hear it. Um, so I started a substack, which I had complicated feelings about honestly. 'cause it's just another. Rich person's platform that I'm, you know, helping them get Andreessen money or whatever. And, you know, so I'm gonna play lightly there, but I will post here and there. Um, I'm just trying to figure it all out, you know, like I've put up a couple articles like this GLP one and Mushrooms article. Mary Carreon: I saw that. I saw that. Really? And honestly, that's a really, like, it's so weird, but I don't, like, it's such a weird little thing that's happening in the space. I wonder, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how that is going to evolve. It's um, you know, a lot of people, I, I briefly kind of wrote about, um, psychedelics and the GLP, is that what it is? Mary Carreon: GLP one. Joe Moore: GLP one. Say Ozempic. Yeah, just, yeah, Ozempic. Yeah, exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah, exactly. I wrote about [00:21:00] that briefly last year and there were a bunch of people like obviously horrified, which it is kind of horrifying, but also there's a bunch of people who believe that it is extremely cutting edge, which it also is. Mary Carreon: So it's really interesting, really fascinating. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I remember Bernie Sanders saying like, if this drug gets as much traction as it needs to, it will bankrupt Medicaid. I guess that's not really a problem anymore. Um, but, but, uh, but so like naming it real quick, like it changed the way we had to digest things, therefore, like mushrooms get digested differently and, um, some people don't respond in the expected ways. Joe Moore: And then there was some follow up, oh, we, in the regulated model, we just do lemon tech. And then I was like, is that legal in the regulated model? And I, I don't know the answer still. Mm-hmm. Like there was a couple things, you know, if users know to do it, you know, I don't, I don't totally understand the regulated model's so strange in Oregon, Colorado, that like, we really need a couple lawyers opinions. Joe Moore: Right. I think Mary Carreon: yes, of course Joe Moore: the lawyers just gave it a [00:22:00] thumbs up. They didn't even comment on the post, which is, laughs: thanks guys. Um, Joe Moore: but you know, laughs: yeah. You're like, thank you. Joe Moore: Thanks and diversity of opinions. So yeah, there's that. And like GLP ones are so interesting in that they're, one friend reached out and said she's using it in a microdose format for chronic neuroinflammation, which I had never heard of before. Joe Moore: Whoa. And um, I think, you know, articles like that, my intent was to just say, Hey, researchers yet another thing to look at. Like, there's no end to what we need to be looking at. Abso Mary Carreon: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, reporting on this space actually taught me that there's so much just in general that isn't being researched, whether that's in this space, but also beyond and how, um, yeah, just how behind, actually, maybe not, maybe behind isn't the right word, but it kind of feels from my novice and from my novice place in the, in the world and [00:23:00] understanding research, it's. Mary Carreon: Hard for me to see it as anything, but being behind in the research that we all really need, that's really going to benefit humanity. But also, you know, I get that it's because of funding and politics and whatever, whatever, you know, we can go on for days on all of that. Joe Moore: What's the real reason? What's the real reason? Joe Moore: Well, drug war. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely the drug war. Nixon. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely the drug war. Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that even all of the drug research that happens is, again, through the lens of addiction and drug abuse, so Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Hard to right. Yeah. Um, like ni a is obviously really ridiculous and, and the way they approach this stuff, and Carl Hart illustrates that well, and, Mary Carreon: oh man, yes, he does. Joe Moore: Like, I think Fadiman's lab in Palo Alto got shut down, like 67, 66 or 67, and like that's, you know, that was one of the later ones, Mary Carreon: right? And, Joe Moore: and like, Mary Carreon: and here we are. Joe Moore: The amount of suffering that could have been alleviated if we [00:24:00] had not done this is. Incalculable. Um, yes. Yes. Yeah. Mary Carreon: I mean the, yeah, it's hard to say exactly how specifically it would be different, but it's difficult to also not think that the fentanyl crisis and the opioid addiction rate and situation that is currently like plaguing the, the world, but particularly the United States, it's hard to think that it wouldn't be, like, it wouldn't be a different scenario altogether. Joe Moore: Right, right. Absolutely. Um, and it's, um, it's interesting to speculate about, right? Like Yeah. Yes. Where would we be? And Mary Carreon: I know, I know, I know, I know it is speculation. Absolutely. But it's like hard, as I said, it's hard not to think that things would be different. Joe Moore: Right. Right. Um, I like, there's two kind of quotes, like, um, not, this one's not really a quote. Joe Moore: Like, we haven't really had a [00:25:00] blockbuster psychiatric med since Prozac, and I think that was in the eighties or early nineties, which is terrifying. And then, um, I think this guy's name is James Hillman. He is kinda like a Jungian, um, educator and I think the title of one of his books is, we're a hundred Years Into Psychotherapy and the World is Still a Mess. Joe Moore: And I think like those two things are like, okay, so two different very white people approaches didn't go very far. Yes. Um, yes and laughs: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: Thankfully, I think a lot of people are seeing that. Mm-hmm. Um, finally and kind of putting energy into different ways. Um, Mary Carreon: yeah. Absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, we need to be exploring the other options at this point because what is currently happening isn't working on many fronts, but including in terms of mental health especially. Mary Carreon: So mm-hmm. We gotta get going. Right? We [00:26:00] gotta get moving. Geez. Joe Moore: Have you all, have you all seen much of the information around chronic pain treatments? Like I'm, I'm a founding board member with the Psychedelics and Pain Association, which has a really fun project. Oh, that's interesting. Mary Carreon: Um, I've seen some of the studies around that and it's endlessly fascinating for obvious, for obvious reasons. Mary Carreon: I, um, we have a writer who's been working for a long time on a story, uh, about the chronic pain that has since. Become an issue for this, for her, for the writer. Mm-hmm. Um, since she had COVID. Mm-hmm. Since, since she is just like, COVID was the onset basically of this chronic pain. And, um, there she attended a psychedelics in pain, chronic pain conference and, uh, that has pretty much like, changed her world. Mary Carreon: Um, well, in terms of just the information that's out there, not necessarily that she's painless, but it's just, you know, offering a, a brand new, a brand new road, a brand new path that is giving her, [00:27:00] um, relief on days when the pain is, uh, substantial. laughs: Yeah. Mary Carreon: So that's interesting. And a lot of people are experiencing that as well. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a really cool set of overlap between the COVID researchers, long COVID researchers and the chronic pain people. 'cause there is Yes. This new science of pain that's yes. Our group, PPA put out like a really robust kind of training, um, for clinicians and researchers and even patients to get more educated. Joe Moore: And we're, we're getting, um, kind of boostered by cluster busters and we're kind of leveraging a lot of what they've done. Mary Carreon: Wait, what is a cluster buster? Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Um, so they're a 5 0 1 C3. Okay. Started with Bob Wald. Okay. Bob Wald is a cluster headache survivor. Oh, oh, oh, Mary Carreon: okay. Got it. Got it. Yes. So they're Joe Moore: the charity that, um, has been really championing, um, cluster headache research because they found a protocol [00:28:00] with mushrooms. Joe Moore: Yes, yes, yes. To eliminate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, this really great, I Mary Carreon: love that. Joe Moore: This really great book was written by a Rutgers, um, I think medical sociologist or anthropologist psychedelic. Love laughs: that. Joe Moore: Joanna Kempner. Cool. Um, and it kind of talks about the whole, um, cluster busters saga, and it was, it was pretty cool. Joe Moore: Nice. So they've been at it for about as long as maps. Um, oh wow. Maybe a little earlier. Maybe a little later. Mary Carreon: I love that. Cool. I mean, yeah, that's really great. That's really great. Joe Moore: So we're copying their playbook in a lot of ways and Cool. We about to be our own 5 0 1 C3 and, um, nice. And that should be really fun. Joe Moore: And, uh, the next conference is coming up at the end of next month if people wanna check that out. Psychedelic. Nice. Mary Carreon: Nice, nice, nice. Cool. Joe Moore: Yeah, so that, like, how I leaned into that was not only did I get a lot of help from chronic pain with psychedelics and going to Phish shows and whatever, um, you know, I, and overuse for sure helped me somehow. Joe Moore: [00:29:00] Um, God bless. Yeah. But I, I like it because it breaks us out of the psychiatry only frame for psychedelics. Mm. And starts to make space for other categories. Mm-hmm. Is one of the bigger reasons I like it. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Which, like, we need to be, we need to, we, no one else is gonna do it for us. We like the people in the space who are finding new uses for these substances need to be creating those, those pathways and those new niches for people to then begin studying, et cetera, and exploring and yeah. Mary Carreon: Making, making a proper avenue for, Joe Moore: right, right. And, you know, um, I don't know that this is a Maha thing, so No, I'm going there, I guess, but like, how do we kind of face squarely America and the world's drinking problems? Not [00:30:00] knowing what we know now about alcohol, you know what I mean? And then like, what are the alternatives? Joe Moore: You know, some, some writers out there on substack are very firm that everybody needs to not do any substance. And like all psychedelics are super bad and drugs are evil, you know, famous sub stackers that I won't name. But you know, like what is the alternative? Like, I, like we have to have something beyond alcohol. Joe Moore: And I think you've found some cannabis helpful for that. Mary Carreon: Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting because it's, there are, there's definitely an argument to be made for the power of these substances in helping, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say curb, but definitely reduce the symptoms of, uh, wanting to use or to drink or to consume a specific substance. Mary Carreon: There's obviously there is an argument to be made. There are, there is ano another camp of people who are kind [00:31:00] of in the, in the, in the, in the realm of using a drug to get off of a drug isn't how you do it. However, and, and I do, it depends on the individual. It depends on the individual and the, and how that person is engaging with their own addiction. Mary Carreon: I think for whether or not the substances work, like whether psychedelics work to help somebody kind of get off of alcohol or get off of cocaine or stop using opioids or, you know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. However, I think like, when the situation is so dire, we need to be trying everything. And if that means, like, if, like, you know, if you look at the studies for like smoking cessation or alcohol use, mushrooms do help, psilocybin does help with that. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. But, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that also need to happen. There's a lot of things that also need to happen in order for those, uh, that relief to maintain and to stick and to, uh, really guide [00:32:00] somebody off of those substances. Mm-hmm. It's not just the substance itself. Joe Moore: Right. So I'm, I'm explicitly talking like recreational alternatives, right. Like how do I Yeah. On per minute, like, am Anitas becoming helpful? Yeah, yeah. Are helpful and Yeah. Yeah. I think like even, um, normal. What we might call like normal American alcohol use. Like Yeah. That's still like, quite carcinogenic and like, um, absolutely. Joe Moore: We're kind of trying to spend less as a country on cancer treatments, which I hope is true. Then how do we, how do we develop things that are, you know, not just abstinence only programs, which we know for sure aren't great. Mary Carreon: Yeah. They don't work. Yeah. I don't, it's, it's difficult. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to say. Mary Carreon: I mean mm-hmm. I don't know. Obviously I, I, well, maybe it's not obvious at all for people who don't know me, but, you know, I exist in a, I exist in, in a world where recreational use is like, it's like hard to define what recreational use is because if we are using this, if we are using mushrooms or LSD even, or MDMA, [00:33:00] you know, there are so many, there's a lot of the therapy that can happen through the use of these substances, even if we're not doing it, you know, with a blindfold on or whatever and yeah, I think like. Mary Carreon: There is a decent swap that can happen if you, if you are somebody who doesn't wanna be, you know, having like three beers a night, or if you are somebody who's like, you know, maybe not trying to have like a bottle of wine at a night or something like that, you know, because like Americans drink a lot and a lot of the way that we drink is, um, you know, like we don't see it as alcoholism. Mary Carreon: Even though it could be, it could be that's like a difficult Joe Moore: potentially subclinical, but right there. Mary Carreon: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's, um, we don't see it as that because everybody, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people drink like that, if that makes sense. If you know mm-hmm. If you, if you get what I'm, if you get what I'm saying. Mary Carreon: So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of benefit that, I don't [00:34:00] know, having, like a, having a mushroom, having a mushroom experience can really help. Or sometimes even like low dose, low doses of mushrooms can also really help with, like, with the. Desire to reach for a drink. Yeah, totally. And, and AMS as well. Mary Carreon: I know that that's also helping people a lot too. And again, outside of the clinical framework. Joe Moore: Yeah. I'm, a lot of people project on me that I'm just like constantly doing everything all the time and I'm, I'm the most sober I've been since high school. You know, like it's bonkers that like Yeah. Um, and you know, probably the healthiest event since high school too. Joe Moore: Yeah. But it's fa it's fascinating that like, you know, psychedelics kind of helped get here and even if it was like For sure something that didn't look like therapy. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, I think most of us here in this space are getting projected on as to like, you know, being like what Normies would consider druggies or something, or that we are just like, you know, high all the time. Mary Carreon: Um, [00:35:00] I know that that is definitely something that I face regularly, like out in the world. Um, but, you know, I would also, I would also argue that. Uh, like mushrooms have completely altered my approach to health, my approach to mental health, and not even having to consume that, you know, that substance in order or that, you know, that fun fungi, in order for me to like tap into taking care of my mental health or approaching better, uh, food options, et cetera. Mary Carreon: It's kind of like what these, it's like how the mushrooms continue to help you even after you have taken them. Like the messages still keep coming through if you work with them in that capacity. Right. And yeah, and also same with, same with LSD too. LSD has also kind my experiences with that have also guided me towards a healthier path as well. Mary Carreon: I, I understand that maybe for some people it's not that way, but, um, for me that substance is a medicine as well, [00:36:00] or it can be. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. What are, what are some things popping up these days about like US drug policy that's like getting exciting for you? Like, are you feeling feeling like a looming optimism about a, a major shift? Joe Moore: Are you kind of like cautiously optimistic with some of the weird kind of mandatory minimum stuff that's coming up or? Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there was a huge, a, a pretty huge shift over at the DEA and I wish I remembered, I wish I remembered his name. The new guy who's now, I believe the head of the DEA, I don't know enough information about it to really feel a way. Mary Carreon: However, I don't think that he's necessarily going to be serving us as a community here, uh, in the psychedelic space. I, you know, I just don't think that that's something that we can ever depend on with the DEA. Uh, I also don't think that [00:37:00] the DEA is necessarily going to be. All that helpful to cannabis, like the cannabis space either. Mary Carreon: Um, I know that, that Trump keeps kind of discussing or, or dangling a carrot around the rescheduling of cannabis. Um, for, he's been, he's been, but he's doing it a lot more now. He's been talking about it more recently. Uh, he says like, in the next like couple weeks that he's going to have some kind of decision around that, allegedly. Mary Carreon: But we will see also, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily help anybody if we reschedule two. Uh, what from schedule one to schedule th two, three, schedule three. Joe Moore: Either way it's like not that useful. Right. Exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, just going to probably cause a lot more red tape and a lot of confusion for the state rec markets. Mary Carreon: So it's like something that we, it's like only ridden with unintentional, unintentional consequences. Unintended consequences. Mm-hmm. Because no one knows how it's really going to [00:38:00] impact anything, um, if, if at all. But I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to imagine that there won't be any, uh, like more complex regulatory issues for business owners and also probably consumers as well. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. This guy's name's Terry Cole. Mary Carreon: Oh, the new DEA guy. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I don't know much about him. Terry. Yeah. Terry, I would love to chat. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Terry, let's talk. I'm sure your people Joe Moore: are watching. Yeah. So like, just let him know. We wanna chat. Yeah. We'll come to DC and chat it out. Um, yeah. It's, um, but yeah, I, Carl Hart's solution to me makes like almost most of the sense in the world to just end the scheduling system Absolutely. Joe Moore: And start building some sort of infrastructure to keep people safe. That's clearly not what we have today. Mary Carreon: No. But building an infrastructure around the health and wellness and uh, safety of [00:39:00] people is the exact opposite system that we have currently right now. Because also the scheduling system has a lot to do with the incarceration in the United States and the criminal just, or the criminal system. Mary Carreon: So, so yeah, like we can't disentangle the two really. Joe Moore: It just started, um, I feel negligent on this. Uh, synergetic press put out a book like a year or two ago called Body Autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, did that one come across your desk at all? Mm-hmm. No. I wish basically contributed. Oh, nice. A number of people. So it's both like, um. Joe Moore: Drug policy commentary and then like sex work commentary. Oh, nice. And it was like high level, like love that really, really incredible love that detailed science based conversations, which is not what we have around this. Like, that doesn't make me feel good. So you should go to jail kind of stuff. Or like, I'm gonna humiliate you for real though. Joe Moore: Ticket. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Uh, when you think about it like that, it just really also shows [00:40:00] just the uh, um, the level at which religion has also kind of fundamentally infused itself into the scheduling system, but also our laws, you know, like what you just said, this like, shame-based, I'm going to embarrass you and make you into a criminal when you know actually you are a law for the most part, a law abiding citizen, with the exception of this one thing that you're doing for. Mary Carreon: A, your survival and or your, like, your feeling good, wanting to feel good addressing pain. Um, there's a large, uh, like noise coming out of the front yard of my house right now. Hold on. Just a, it doesn't sound too bad. It doesn't sound too bad. Okay. Okay, good. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Yeah, I had Joe Moore: people working on my roof all day and somehow it worked out. Joe Moore: Oh, good. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating and I, I've been coming around like, I, I identify as politically confused, [00:41:00] um, and I feel like it's the most honest way I can be. Um, Mary Carreon: I am also politically confused these days, impossible to align with any, uh, party or group currently in existence at this exact juncture in American history. Joe Moore: I can't find any that I want to throw my dice in with. Nah. This idea of like fucking way being. Like what is the most humane way to do government as a way it's been put to me recently. And that's interesting. So it comes down to like coercion, are we caring for people, things like that. And um, I don't think we're doing it in a super humane way right now. Mary Carreon: Um, we, yeah, I am pretty sure that even if there was, I mean, I think that even if we looked at the data, the data would support that we are not doing it in a humane way. Joe Moore: So Mary Carreon: unfortunately, and Joe Moore: you know, this whole tech thing, like the tech oligarch thing, you kind of dropped at the beginning and I think it's worth bringing that back because we're, we're on all [00:42:00] these tech platforms. Joe Moore: Like that's kind of like how we're transmitting it to people who are participating in these other platforms and like, you know, it's not all meta. I did turn on my personal Facebook, so everybody's watching it there. I hope. Um, see if that count gets, Mary Carreon: um, Joe Moore: but you know, this idea that a certain number of private corporations kind of control. Joe Moore: A huge portion of rhetoric. Um, and you know, I think we probably got Whiffs of this when Bezos bought Washington Post and then Yes. You know, Musk with X and like yes. You know, is this kind of a bunch of people who don't necessarily care about this topic and the way we do, and they're like in larger topics too about humane government and like, you know, moving things in good directions. Joe Moore: Um, I don't know, thoughts on that rift there as it relates to anything you, wherever you wanna go. Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they are looking at, I don't think that they are looking [00:43:00] at it the way that we are. I don't think that they can see it from their vantage point. Um, I think that like, in the, in a similar way that so many CEOs who run businesses have no fucking clue about what's actually happening in their businesses and the actual workers and, and employees of their businesses can tell them in more detail. Mary Carreon: Far more detail about what's actually happening on the, on the floor of their own business. Uh, I think that it is something like that. However, that's not to say that, you know, these, these CEOs who employ people who build the A algorithm are obviously guided to create the limitations on us as people who speak about drugs, et cetera, and are creating a algorithm that ultimately is looking at things in a very blanket way in terms of, uh, like we're probably seen on the same level as like drug dealers, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: Which is obviously a much, you know, there's, [00:44:00] it's a very different thing. Um, so, you know, there's like these CEOs are giving directions to their employees to ultimately create systems that harm. Information flow and inform and, and like the information health of, of platforms and of just people in general. Mary Carreon: So it's hard to say because there's nuance there, obviously, but I would bet you that someone like Elon Musk doesn't really have a full grasp as to the, the nuances and details of what's even happening within, on the ground floor of his businesses. Because that's like, not how CEOs in America run, run, and operate. Mary Carreon: They're stupid companies. So, so yeah. And I feel like that, like, that's across the board, like that's across the board. That's how I, that's probably how Zuck is operating with Meta and Facebook, et cetera. And yeah, just likewise and across, across the whole, [00:45:00] across the whole spectrum. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, a thing. Joe Moore: Then as the people like, we need to keep looking at how can we keep each other informed. And that's kind of circling back to drug journalism like we do and like, um, other, other sorts of journalism that doesn't really get the press it deserves. Right. And I've been getting far more content that I find more valuable off of tragically back on Zucks platform like IG is getting me so much interesting content from around the world that no major outlet's covering. Mary Carreon: That's so interesting. Like what? Like what would you say? Joe Moore: Oh, um, uh, certain, um, violent situations overseas. Oh, oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that America's paying for, so like, you know, I just don't love that I don't have a good, you know, journalistic source I can [00:46:00] point to, to say, hey, like right. Joe Moore: These writers with names, with addresses, like, and offices here. Yes. You know, they did the work and they're held, you know, they're ethical journalists, so yes. You can trust them. Right. You know what I mean? Yes, Mary Carreon: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of this makes everything so much harder for determining, like, the censorship specifically makes it so much harder for the people to determine like, what's real, what's not. Mary Carreon: Because, because of exactly what you just said. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we are, we are basically what that means, like what is required of the people and people who are consuming information is becoming a smart consumer and being able to determine what's real, what's not. How can we trust this individual? Mary Carreon: How can we not, which isn't analysis process that all of us need to be sharpening every single day, especially with the advent of AI and, uh, how quickly this, this type of content is coming at all of us. Like, especially if you're on TikTok, which many of us are, you know, like information comes flying at you 3000 miles an hour, and it's sometimes [00:47:00] really difficult to determine what's real, what's not, because AI is. Mary Carreon: AI is not where it's going to be, and it still is in its nascent phase. However, it's still pretty fucking good and it's still very confusing on there. So, so again, like the media literacy of the people needs to be sharpened every single day. We cannot be on there, we cannot be on the internet existing. Mary Carreon: That everything that we are seeing is real. Whether that's about, you know, these, um, the violence overseas, uh, happening at the hands of the United States, whether that is, uh, even drug information like, you know, et cetera, all of all of it. Or just like news about something happening at Yellowstone National Park or something that is happening in the, uh, at like. Mary Carreon: Um, like potential riots also happening at protests in downtown la, et cetera. Like all, all of it, we need to be so careful. And I think what that also, like, one way that [00:48:00] we can adjust and begin to develop our media literacy skills is talking to people maybe who are there, reaching out to people who are saying that they were there and asking them questions, and also sussing that out. Mary Carreon: You know, obviously we can't do that for all situations, but definitely some of them. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Like, Joe Moore: um, a quick pivot. Mm-hmm. Were you at PS 25? Mary Carreon: Yes, I was. What did I think? Uh, you know, I, I was running around like crazy at this one. I felt like I didn't even have a second to breathe and I feel like I didn't even have a second to really see anybody. I was like, worry. I was jumping from one stage to the next. Mary Carreon: However, I would say, uh, one of, one of the things that I have said and how I felt about it was that I felt that this, this event was smaller than it was two years ago. And I preferred that I preferred the reduction in size just because it was, uh, less over, less overwhelming [00:49:00] in an, in an already very overwhelming event. Mary Carreon: Um, but I thought that from the panels that I did see that everyone did a really great job. I thought that maps, you know, it's impressive that maps can put on an event like that. Um, I also was very cognizant that the suits were there in full effect and, uh, you know, but that's not unusual. That's how it was last time as well. Mary Carreon: And, um, I felt that there was Mary Carreon: a, uh, like the, the, the level of excitement and the level of like opportunity and pro, like the prosperous. The like, prospect of prosperity coming down the pipeline like tomorrow, you know, kind of vibe was different than last time. Mm-hmm. Which that was very present at the one, two years ago, uh, which was the last PS psychedelic science. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Um, anyways. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was really nice to see everybody. [00:50:00] I feel like in-person events is a great way for everybody in the psychedelic space to be interacting with each other instead of like keyboard warrioring against each other, you know, uh, over the computer and over the internet. Mary Carreon: I think that, um, yeah, uh, being in person is better than being fighting each other over the internet, so, yeah. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. People seem to be a little bit more civil in person. Mary Carreon: Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is something that we all need to be considering more often, and also inviting people from across the aisle to your events and creating peace, because in person it's a little different than it is. Mary Carreon: When you have the opportunity to, uh, yeah, like keyboard attack someone over the internet, it's like, yeah. It's just so silly. So silly. We look like fools. Like we look like absolute idiots doing that. And you know what? I cannot sit here and say that I haven't looked like an idiot. So, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not talking from like a high horse over here, but, but you know, it's like, it's [00:51:00] better when it's in person. Mary Carreon: I feel like there's like more civil engagements that we can all have. Joe Moore: It's practice, you know? Yeah. We're learning. Yeah. We are. We should be learning, including us, and yes, of course. Um, I, I play a subtler game these days and, uh, you know, I, I, I, it's better when we all look a lot better in my opinion, because yes, we can inform policy decisions, we can be the ones helping inform really important things about how these things should get implemented and absolutely right. Joe Moore: Like, Mary Carreon: absolutely. Yeah, it does. It does. Nobody, any service, especially these medicines, especially these sacraments, especially these plants, these molecules, et cetera, if we are all sitting here fighting each other and like calling each other names and trying to dunk on one another, when like in reality, we are also all kind of pushing for the same thing more or less. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So a thing that [00:52:00] I, it's a, it's kind of a, I, I had a great time at PS 25. I have no, no real complaints. I just wish I had more time. Yeah, same. Um, same. Yeah. Our booth was so busy. It was so fun. Just good. And it was like, good. I, I know. It was really good. I'm trying to say it out loud. I get to talk at the conference before Rick did. laughs: Oh, oh, Joe Moore: the morning show they put us on at like seven 30 in the morning or something crazy. Oh my god. It was early. I dunno if it was seven 30. Mary Carreon: That's so early. That's so early. Joe Moore: Yeah, right. Like that's crazy. I got zero nightlife in That's okay. Um, I was not, I was there for work. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I was Joe Moore: jealous. I didn't party, but you know, whatever. Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: I did not party this time really in the same way that I did at PS 20. Was it 2023? Joe Moore: 23, yeah. 23. I only stay up till 11 one night in 23. Nice. Mary Carreon: Okay. Um, okay. Joe Moore: So I behaved, I have a pattern of behaving. 'cause I like That's good. I'm so bent outta shape inside going into these things. I'm like, I know, I know. Joe Moore: And, and I'm like, oh, all [00:53:00] my friends are gonna be there. It's gonna be great. And then it's like, yeah. It's mostly friends and only a little bit of stress. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I had a, I had a great time. It was really good seeing everybody again. Like you, I wish that I had more time with people. Like there are people that I like didn't even see who are my friends, Joe Moore: so, which Yeah. Joe Moore: Which is sad. That's like a subtext in, in like the notes coming away from 25. Is that the, um, American Right, if we wanna call it that, is very interested in this stuff. Oh yeah. Like the Texas establishment. Oh yeah. Um, the Texas contingent, right? They're deep. They're real deep. Mm-hmm. I have, um, Mary Carreon: let's talk about that more. Mary Carreon: Yeah. So Joe Moore: it's optimistic in, in some sense that psychedelic science is getting funded more. By states. 'cause the feds aren't stepping up. Right. I love that. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey feds, look what we can do. And you can't somehow, and [00:54:00] then, um, we'll see if state rights stays around for a while longer, maybe, maybe not. Joe Moore: And then the other part is like, is there a slippery slope given the rhetoric around addiction and the rise in interest in iboga for compulsory addiction treatment with psychedelics or, or compulsory mental health treatments with psychedelics because of the recent, it's illegal to be a person without housing. Joe Moore: Um, and you're gonna get put in treatment. Mm. Like, that's now a thing. So like, I don't know, I don't think forced treatment's good at all. I, and I don't think like, um, like the data is something like 15% effective, maybe less. Right. Right. It's not a good use of money. I don't know. We're, let's, I. You can go there if you want, and riff on that, or if you wanna talk about like, Texas, um, Arizona more generally. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I will just say this, I also don't really believe that forced treatment is like good, you [00:55:00] know, data Joe Moore: says it's bad. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I also, yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's complex. It's a complex issue. I also don't think it's good, but I also do think that we need a much better framework and foundation for like, if people do want the help, helping them get it. Mary Carreon: Much more easily and in a way that's going to be beneficial for them. Um, and I don't think that that system or that pathway currently exists as we saw in, uh, with, with, um, measure 1 0 9 and the failure of measure 1 0 9 or, or was it Measure 1 0 10, 1 10, measure one 10 in Oregon. Joe Moore: But did you see the response yesterday or two days ago? Joe Moore: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I'll I'll send it to you later. Okay. So the university did the research, um, Portland State University did the research Yes. And said, Hey, look, there was actually 20 other things that were higher priority. Like that actually influenced this increase in overdoses, not our law. Mary Carreon: Right. Mary Carreon: Yes. It was really COVID for Okay. [00:56:00] Like for, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Also, there was not a. Like there was not a framework in place that allowed people to get off the street should they want to, or you know, like, like you just can't really have a, all drugs are legal, or small amounts of drugs are legal without also offering or creating a structure for people to get help. Mary Carreon: That, that's, you can't do one without the other. Unfortunately. That's just like a, that's faulty from the start. So that's all I'll really say about that. And I don't think that that had fully been implemented yet, even though it was something that wasn't ideal for the, um, for the, for the measure. And I believe it was measure one 10, not measure 1 0 9, to be clear. Mary Carreon: Measure one 10. Um, yes, but confirmed one 10 confirmed one 10, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I'll say. That's what I'll, that's where I'll leave that portion. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, but yeah, forced treatment. I don't know. [00:57:00] We can't be forcing, forcing people to do stuff like that. Mary Carreon: I don't know. It's not gonna, it's, yeah, it doesn't seem Joe Moore: very humane. Mary Carreon: Yeah. No. And it also probably isn't gonna work, so, Joe Moore: right. Like, if we're being conservative with money, like, I like tote, like to put on Republican boots once in a while and say like, what does this feel like? And then say like, okay, if we're trying to spend money smartly, like where do we actually get where we want to be? Joe Moore: And then sometimes I put on my cross and I'm like, okay, if I'm trying to be Christian, like where is the most, like, what is the most Christian behavior here in terms of like, what would the, you know, buddy Jesus want to do? And I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, that doesn't seem right. Like those things don't seem to align. Joe Moore: And when we can find like compassionate and efficient things, like isn't that the path? Um, Mary Carreon: compassionate and t. Yeah, even, I don't know, I don't know if it looks lefty these days, but Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah. Um, yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated, you know, but going back, kind of, kind of pivoting and going back to what you were talking about in regards to the subtext, some of the subtext of like, you know, where psychedelic medicine is currently getting its most funding. Mary Carreon: You know, I do believe that that was an undercurrent at psychedelic science. It was the, the iboga conversation. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot happening with the Iboga conversation and the Iboga conversation and, um, I am really trying to be open to listening to everyone's messages that are currently involved in. Mary Carreon: That rise of that medicine right now? Um, obviously, yeah, we will see, we'll see how it goes. There's obviously a lot of people who believe that this is not the right move, uh, just because there's been no discussions with, uh, the Wii people of West Africa and, you know, because of [00:59:00] that, like we are not talking to the indigenous people about how we are using their medicine, um, or medicine that does like that comes from, that comes from Africa. Mary Carreon: Um, also with that, I know that there is a massive just devastating opioid crisis here that we need to do something about and drug crisis that we need to be helping with. And this medicine is something that can really, really, really help. Um, I find it absolutely fascinating that the right is the most interested party in moving all of this forward, like psychedelic medicine forward. Mary Carreon: And I, I currently have my popcorn and I am watching and I am eating it, and I am going to witness whatever goes down. Um, but I'm, I, I hope that, uh, things are moving in a way that is going to be beneficial for the people and also not completely leave behind the indigenous communities where this medicine comes from. Joe Moore: [01:00:00] Mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. It Joe Moore: would be lovely if we can figure it out. Um, I know, and I think, uh, Lucy Walker has a film coming out on Iboga. Mm. I got to see it at Aspen, um, symposium last summer, and it was really good. Mm. So I'm sure it'll be cut different, but it's so good and it tells that story. Joe Moore: Okay. Um, in a helpful way. I'm gonna, I, yeah. I always say I'm gonna do this. I'm like, if I have space, maybe I'll be able to email her and see if we can screen it in Colorado. But it's like a brilliant film. Yeah. Cool. This whole reciprocity conversation is interesting and challenging. And so challenging being one of the few countries that did not sign onto the Nagoya protocol. Joe Moore: Absolutely. We're not legally bound, you know, some countries are Mary Carreon: I know. Yes, yes, yes. So Joe Moore: we're, you know, how do we do that? How do we do that skillfully? We still haven't done it with, um, first Nations folks around their [01:01:00] substances. Um, I think mushrooms are a little flexible and account of them being global, um, from Africa to Ireland and beyond. Joe Moore: And, but you know, that's, we still want to give a nod to the people in Mexico for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's, I had some fun commentary there that I would love to flesh out someday. Uh, but yeah, it's not for today. Mary Carreon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's, yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously a lot with the conversation of reciprocity here and, um, I know, I, I don't know. Mary Carreon: I, I, what I do know is that we need to be listening to the indigenous people, not just listening to them second, like secondhand or listening to them, uh, once we have moved something forward, like actually consulting with them as the process goes. And that, you know, the way that both parties move, indigenous folks and, uh, western folks move, uh, are at inherently different paces. Mary Carreon: And, [01:02:00] um, I just hope, and I wish, and I, I hope, I just hope that, uh, Western what, like the Western party, the western folks who are diving into these medicines. Slow the fuck down and listen and just are able to at least make one right move. Just one, just like you. Like it's, doesn't have to be this, it doesn't have to be that hard. Mary Carreon: Although the pace of capitalism usually propels, uh, the western folks at, at a much quicker rate than, u

Dentistry isn't always the front of the pack when it comes to innovation, but Tiff and Kristy tackle the topic with digestible takeaways from a marketing point of view. In this episode, they touch on easy questions to identify your practice's brand, why that patient avatar is so critical, and how to ensure your brand spreads through your office, down to the check-in staff member. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back here with you today. This is Tiffanie, because I forget to announce myself, and Miss Kristy. I have Kristy for the long haul today. She's doing a couple of different recordings with me. And I can't wait for them to come out. Actually, Kristy, I have had so much fun. I think this one, I don't know what order they go out in. So whatever. If you guys have listened to the leadership ones we just did or have not, they're coming.   You're going to love them. So Kristy, thank you for taking this ride with me today and just busting out a ton ⁓ with me on this beautiful, it's a Thursday morning right now. How are you doing? You holding up over there? You got your water? Awesome.   DAT Kristy (00:40) Absolutely. It's always the   day goes by fast when we're doing this. love it.   The Dental A Team (00:45) Yeah, me too. I really do. I do love it. And I ⁓ love when we hear from listeners. I love when we get, you know, we get to go through the reviews below and see what people loved or I know a lot of people will leave like info of their own that there is suggestions I should say. And it's just a lot of fun. Always hearing from it. And I love hearing from my clients when they've listened to one. So I agree the podcast is fun and it's like a collaboration time for us.   I enjoy it. this podcast topic, the subject, is something I really, really love. ⁓ I was talking actually, it's on marketing guys. So don't fret. I think you already saw the title, but it's on marketing. ⁓ I joined a marketing call yesterday with a client and it was a marketer I've not worked with before and she was fantastic and she was very collaborative. It was great, but she...   She was like, is this something you guys do? You guys work, like you do marketing for them? And I was like, no, no, no, let's not get wild here. Like I don't do marketing, but I love it. And I know my consultant team loves marketing and internal is our jam. And we are really, really solid at that, but really finding different ways that we can leverage our skills to show patients and potential patients that this is the right place for them.   I think is something that consultants on our team are really fantastic at. And I wanted to dive into some of that with you today, Kristy, is really just like how to just innovate a brand. And the most fun part about this for me in today's market is that I don't think that dentistry has always been in a space of total innovation.   I think dentistry has always kind of innovated, like, my gosh, can we just talk about how long we've been using the same stuff for like root canals, right? Or whatever, like, come on, right? But there is a lot of innovation in like filling materials and scans and x-rays, the, know, CBCT scans, all of these different modalities, in-house crowns, like Botox, lip fillers, but I've got...   Practices that are doing facial aesthetics, know having estheticians in the office We do have a lot of innovation when it comes to that space but something I think is truly innovating within the last few years is the understanding of a Dental practice and a dentist needing to have a brand. I don't think marketing Has been easy in the dental world. I don't think it's been understood and I don't think it's been super effective if I'm honest and the   Idea of innovating is really cool to me. I love innovation. That's one of our, I don't think it's innovate, it used to be innovate or die, a core value of ours. I hated that. But innovate is just something that we live by at the Dental A Team. We're constantly looking for, okay, well that didn't get us the result we wanted. Let's do something different. Let's try this. And changing things and marketing allows for that in so many really cool ways. But really looking at it and saying, what's my brand?   Who am I? Like how is my practice showing up in our community is something that I don't think that, Kristy, we've really ever spent a lot of time diving into within the dental world. And I think it's starting to come up. But what are you seeing, Kristy, even with the practices you're working with today, do you see a lot of practices really thinking, what's my brand?   DAT Kristy (04:25) Yeah, no, I think we are still behind the time in that regard for most other industries. They've kind of dialed this in. ⁓ It's definitely an area I believe that we can do better. mean, obviously, I just moved from Idaho and there's like, I don't know, three or five dentists on every corner almost. Do you think I'm exaggerating? finding out and   The Dental A Team (04:49) Literally.   DAT Kristy (04:54) And brand again can be such a broad word, but to simplify it, I just ask doctors, what's your purpose? What's your niche? What do you wanna be known for? Start asking yourself some of those questions to identify and set yourself apart. Here's the thing, dentistry, it goes back to what you said, Tiff, we only offer so many things.   And so how do we put ourselves apart? Like why do they want a filling from you versus your three neighbors next door? So yeah, again, one of those words brand, it's like, it's so broad. So narrow it down. What do you want to be known for? What's your purpose and what's your niche? And if you've been in dentistry for a while and you still haven't done this, go look at your reviews right now.   The Dental A Team (05:28) Yep, I totally agree.   DAT Kristy (05:48) and start highlighting some common words. If they're saying friendly or, I don't know, nice, kind, whatever it is, start highlighting them and see, does that fit you? Right?   The Dental A Team (06:00) Yeah, yeah, I   mean you could throw that into chat GPT. You could say chat GPT, go look at my reviews and find commonalities. Innovation guys, innovation. 2025 chat GPT, that's our best friend. No, I totally agree with you and ⁓ you said a few things there that I just totally resonate with and it made me think of a client, ⁓ actually a conversation I had with my financial advisor boyfriend who is just like,   DAT Kristy (06:07) There you go.   The Dental A Team (06:28) He works with a few dentists here locally in Arizona and Phoenix and he asks me a lot of questions and he's like, how is this possible? And I'm like, you know, he sees the profit and he sees the things that dentists are able to achieve and what they're able to achieve for their team members and being able to see like how, they're the 401ks and there's the different things that they're able to do and there he's not seen that in another industry.   right, through the work that he's done at least. And the conversation we had was, we were talking about a cosmetic practice and he, I think I upset him if I'm honest with you, we just at the gym, right? And he was just like, I just don't understand how it's possible that one, because I said, don't know, it could be, you know, for this specific cosmetic dentist, it's probably $2,500 of an year, okay?   DAT Kristy (07:11) ⁓   The Dental A Team (07:25) pretty average honestly for a cosmetic dentist like 2500 a veneer and his mind was blown right because he's looking at like cosmetic procedures um at a plastic surgeon right like you can get minor cosmetic procedures for similar amounts of money on your physical body right and not just one single tooth and i said well you know while i understand where you're coming from like let me tell you the hours it takes   to do a cause, like what it actually takes and what a lab cost of one of those crowns could be, et cetera, et cetera. But long story short, he just was mind blown and was just like, that is wild. And I thought to myself, this is it. Like this is the marketing and the branding because you do have to set yourself apart and you have to reach the people that want to be reached by you, right? My boyfriend, I love him to death. He is not.   DAT Kristy (08:14) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (08:18) this he's not a cosmetic dentist avatar, it's not their dream, right? Because you're going to be convincing him. Like nobody wants that. if you want to you want that number nine implant crown replaced by a dentist who's going to make it look 100,000 times better than it does right now, honey. It's you're going to pay money for that, right? But if you're not concerned about it, then you're not going to care, right? Who you go to. So   My conversation with him yesterday made me really really think how important it is for practices to understand their brand and their avatar patient. So what is it that you want to do and within the capabilities of your surroundings I think is a good statement. I have practices that are like I want to do cosmetic dentistry and I'm like well you're in a like this you've got   20 miles around you of Medicaid. People aren't coming here for that, so we've gotta move your practice or change your avatar, right? So within the confinements of where you're at, of course, but what is it that you want to provide and then who are you providing it to? And Kristy, I think one piece that's missed in the branding conversation, one, we all wanna be like, I wanna do this, right? But it's like, okay, is that avatar here? So then looking at what your patient avatar   Who is your patient avatar? Who is the person you're speaking to? And then what do they need, right? In our company, Kiera and I love nothing more than to brainstorm and innovate. Like we want to innovate. We want to change the world, right? And we get on these tangents and then thank goodness we have like Britt and Shelbi on these calls with us because they're like, okay, cool guys, this sounds like an awesome product. It sounds like something that is gonna be really cool and that you will love doing.   Does it speak to our client's needs? And we're like, ⁓ yeah, that's right. We can innovate and we can do all of these cool things, but are we meeting a need of the people who need us, right? Of our client avatar. We know who we wanna work with. Are we just creating to create? Or are we creating something that meets a need of that avatar, of the person that we want to work with? And if it does, then fantastic, then let's move forward.   DAT Kristy (10:14) You   The Dental A Team (10:37) And so I think with the branding conversation, we're speaking to those needs. So who are we looking to work with? ⁓ Who do we want to inspire to have better dental health? And then what are their needs? And how can we show up and speak to that? Where our brand, Kristy, tell me if I'm totally off here, but we'll add to it as well. I think our brand...   really is how we're showing up to speak to those needs, right? And how we're showing up in a way that those people who need those things find us, right?   DAT Kristy (11:14) Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And to your point, I know people almost have a adverse reaction when we say buying dentistry or selling dentistry, but in the big scheme of things, guys, we are selling dentistry. what are they looking to buy? And it's usually they're not coming in saying, I want to buy a root canal, right? They're buying health or they're buying   The Dental A Team (11:39) Yeah. Yeah.   DAT Kristy (11:42) They're buying something it's going to give them. And so I think sometimes we miss the mark by speaking our language instead of the language they're looking for. Right.   The Dental A Team (11:54) Totally agree. I remember one of the first like all on four over dentures, whatever that we did in my practice. I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I get it because the guy bought because he was like, I just want to eat a steak again. And I was like, that is brilliant. So that became our brand of our all on fours. Like eat a steak again because it fit our target audience, our avatar and our demographic. We knew.   DAT Kristy (12:10) Hmm?   The Dental A Team (12:23) the area that we were in had that need and those were the patients that we wanted. And so we took that as a brand of our practice and we were like, do you want to eat steak again? So it's like that, now we're speaking to their need instead of selling a denture, right? Like people might call the denture places, right? And I'm not talking about prosthodontists, I'm talking about these big   you guys have seen the commercials, they might, those are not your avatar. Those patients are not the patients that you want. You want the patients that are emotionally tied to being able to eat a steak again. I had a patient that had regular dentures. I will never forget this lady. She was so sweet and so sweet. She just had dentures and she would not go for.   the lower support adventure and we're like totally fine, totally fine. She came in like once a month for quote unquote adjustments because   She couldn't eat lettuce. And she brought in a piece of lettuce and she put it in between her teeth and then pull it out. Her need was that she wanted to eat a salad again. And I get that, I eat a lot of salads, I eat a lot of steak. So it became the brand of that specific procedure. And it became one of our brands. Lettuce gets you healthy in all the ways. ⁓   speaking to what you said, right? So I think something action-wise that I have a lot of practices do is, and we do this in multifaceted, ⁓ is building that avatar. We help clients build the avatar of their ideal patient, and then, side-step, I love avatars, building the avatar of your ideal team member. Because within the brand conversation,   If you, I like to think of companies who have a really, really easy brand, right? And kind of match up with, I think, what a lot of the dentists that we work with are kind of looking for, their style, right? Everybody says the Ritz-Carlton, but nobody knows what that means anymore, doctors. Please just know your team members don't know what the Ritz-Carlton is or how they show up, so it doesn't work. ⁓ But brands that do resonate with a lot of team members, and it's easy for a lot of doctors to understand the importance of hiring,   DAT Kristy (14:44) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:57) And emanating the brand that you want and I think Lululemon is a very easy one, right? Everyone knows there's not a soul who does not know what Lululemon is. They've done a phenomenal job. When you walk into a Lululemon, same, you could copy and paste that person. I've been to Lululemon's all over the country. Sadly, don't tell my boyfriend. I've been to Lululemon's all over the country and you can duplicate the way that they show up.   They are a brand, they are a piece of that company and they are showing up that way. Dental A Team, we run the same way. We are speaking the company culture constantly and we all show up the same. Chick-fil-A is another one. Yeah, great training, but also they're hiring the personalities that fit within their culture that they can train. Same with Starbucks.   All of these different brands who have and companies who have branded themselves really well are ensuring that that messaging and that branding is in all of those spaces. And something I see doctors do is really come to the space of like ready to elevate where they're at, but they're not fully ready to innovate in all the different ways. And narrowing those avatars down helps bring light.   to situations that maybe is kind of sitting in the shadows. And I've seen sometimes where it's like maybe our main check-in gal who's been there forever and she loves the patients that she loves and she's a great human and she doesn't need to go anywhere, but is she right person, right seat? Is she exuding your brand awareness of like, my gosh, we are so excited to see you today. Thank you so much for coming to our practice. We love new patients.   Or, right, is she like, I really love the patients that I know, thank you for being here, fantastic human, again, I'm not saying people need to be let go, I'm saying do you have them in the seat that's appropriate for them? Or is there maybe a seat that, like I walked into a practice yesterday, we were consulting, holy amazing find for their check-in girl. And I am telling you right now, I went through this avatar, ⁓   assignment, whatever you want to call it, with them, this exercise, literally within a week, this girl walked into their office randomly, walked in, said, I don't know if you guys are hiring or not, if you need it. Like I am not really looking, but like, are you looking for somebody? She is amazing. Dental experience, beautiful, beautiful girl, so happy, and just is like,   loving everyone and she just wants to help everyone to a T. I remember the office manager calling like in tears, Tiffanie, you'll never guess what just happened. And it was because they had it, in my opinion, so narrowed down that it walked right in front of their face. Had they not known exactly what their avatar was, they might've been like, that was really weird, right? Like, I'll take your resume, but like, you're cute and all, like, maybe I'll call you. But they were so dialed in on exactly who they wanted at that check-in desk.   DAT Kristy (17:57) Thank you.   The Dental A Team (18:13) She walked in and they were like, yep, she's the one. And that I think happens with our avatar for our patients too, for marketing. And I think that's our brand awareness. Like that's how we stay relevant is knowing how we wanna show up, who we wanna show up for, and how do we help their needs and speaking to that from our brand. Lululemon is not here to serve everyone. That's totally fine.   DAT Kristy (18:17) Pass it.   The Dental A Team (18:42) Talk to, I use Lululemon branding as an example in a lot of different ways with a lot of offices and I've had team members that are like, I'm not spending money on Lululemon. I'm like, you're not their avatar. That's totally fine too because you're someone else's avatar. You are a different brand's avatar and they need you. So what they've done is they've made it easy for people to say yes or no. And if you're a cosmetic dentist who is branding, right, you've got your brand so wide.   that you're getting calls for people who only want to do what your insurance is going to cover, that's not your avatar. That is someone else's let them have that patient. They are working their tail off for new patients too. Let them have that patient. That's not your avatar, right? And I think we try, Kristy, to bend to what is coming. And we're like, well, we can do that. And we don't hold our boundaries of what we actually want.   and what our practice needs and what fits us that we end up confused. And then we get the calls of the doctors that are like, I need systems because it's not working and not something doesn't work for everyone. Right, Kristy, do you see where I'm going with that?   DAT Kristy (19:54) Yeah,   I sure do. I love where you're identifying and it's not just the who, but it's the how behaviors too, like how will they show up, right? Identifying who is the first step for sure, but then take it one step further and identify the characteristics of how they behave as well because then you'll bring that in. Yeah, I love   I love everything you're saying there. think it's kind of bringing me back. I believe I had this conversation with Kiera the other day about... ⁓   a doctor wanting to elevate his practice and should I offer this service? And I'm like, well, have you ever considered taking a poll with your patients to see are they looking for this type of service? Yes, it's fine to, I mean, do what you love for sure, but before you get frustrated, go take CE for this course and learn how to, I don't know, do Botox and none of your patients are wanting it. And then you get frustrated and   fizzle out, you know what I mean? Find out first. And another cool area of that tip is, you know, have your admin team keep track of ⁓ how many patients are calling and asking for something that maybe you aren't offering and see if that's, you know, see if it's in your wheelhouse or is it matching your avatar?   The Dental A Team (21:05) Yeah.   That's a great idea. ⁓   Yeah, yeah, and I think to speak to that too, if they're calling asking for that and it's not something that fits your avatar or that you want to do, is your branding reflective of your avatar because somehow they found you and they called you. So what messaging is out there within your marketing that has attracted the wrong avatar? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.   DAT Kristy (21:48) Yeah, 100%. So it works both ways, right? Yeah.   The Dental A Team (21:54) Love marketing. just it and I don't know I just I don't I truly don't know why I love marketing so much but it just gets me excited and the idea of being able to change something and really target in and achieve the result is really cool to me and the idea of being able to attract someone to something that they need and want by   saying things right by presenting right. Like that just gets me so giddy. So thank you for doing this podcast with me today is my point.   DAT Kristy (22:27) Yeah.   I was going to say to your point, you said something very poignant there that you have to be tracking it. You have to be paying attention to it and you have to be willing to test, track and adjust if it's not getting the results you want. Too many people start and they throw it out and then they stop there because they get frustrated that it's not bringing it. And it goes back to your innovation. You've got to be able to ⁓   try something different and it could be something very minute. A word, right, could make a big difference.   The Dental A Team (23:01) Yeah,   yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that's the most exciting space is what you just said. Like even the word, the one word in this sentence on this marketing, whatever this ad that's on Google or postcard that somebody's getting one word can totally change the outcome. And I think that's what gets me excited is like, okay, how can I, how can I get the result that I want with the words that I'm using? I love that. And when we can,   hone in on that, I think massive changes. I think there's a ton of takeaways here. think biggest action item, you guys, is really, really figuring out your patient avatar and your team avatar, honestly, your team member avatar, because I think that points you in the direction of your culture, how you want to show up in the world, what your brand is, and then start realizing and understanding that your culture, your core values, that is your brand, that is your brand awareness. And when we live and breathe,   By those, think you guys can, anyone who's listening and has listened before, anyone who's following the Dental A Team on Instagram, Facebook, clients of ours, coming to our webinars, we do free CE webinars every month, you guys, anyone who has experienced Dental A Team in the slightest, I think can agree that we emanate the Dental A Team. Every team member we have, as far as our virtual assistant,   Joe Ash, who we love and adore all the way in the Philippines. He emanates the Dental A Team because we understand that those pieces of our company, the mission, the vision, the core values, brand awareness, all of that is who we are. And we live, breathe it, we show up, we believe in it, we stand behind it and we're consistent. So it makes everything else kind of fall into place really easily. So.   Go do that, you guys, narrow it in. Don't let it feel so big. Just do one chunk. What is your avatar? Who is your avatar? How do they show up in life? What do they look like? What do they love to do? Narrow in your avatar of your patient and of your team members. Make sure your mission, vision, core values are in alignment with what you actually want. And then take a step back and look at it from bird's eye view of how you need to innovate your brand.   and how you can do that. And like I said, I love this stuff. The consultants loves this stuff. Kristy is fantastic with her clients. She's done this so many times and all of them have Dana, gosh, Monica, Trish, everybody, every single one of them have done these types of exercises with their clients and they're really good at it you guys. So reach out. If you're a client and you need this, you're like, need to innovate, reach out to your consultant. If you're not yet a client,   you're soon to be or you're just like, I'm just a podcast listener right now, that's okay too. Reach out you guys, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We have the resources that you need, we're here to help you. Instagram, Facebook, wherever you can find us and then as always you guys leave us a five star review below. Let us know how helpful this was and if there's anything you've done to innovate your brand awareness that you think people could benefit from as well, people really do read those comments and it could be super beneficial. So, Kristy.   Thank you so much. I love taking the avatar roads with you, because I think you're just really good at it and you love people. So really keying in on parts that you love about people's personalities, I think opens you up. So thank you, Kristy, for being here today. Of course. All right, guys, go do the Things Five Star Review. Reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Follow us on social if you're not there yet, and we'll catch you next time. Bye-bye.   DAT Kristy (26:37) Thank you.

Each episode on Unstoppable Mindset I ask all of you and my guests to feel free to introduce me to others who would be good guests on our podcast. Our guest this time, Erin Edgar, is a guest introduced to me by a past podcast guest, Rob Wentz. Rob told me that Erin is inspirational and would be interesting and that she would have a lot to offer you, our audience. Rob was right on all counts. Erin Edgar was born blind. Her parents adopted an attitude that would raise their daughter with a positive attitude about herself. She was encouraged and when barriers were put in her way as a youth, her parents helped her fight to be able to participate and thrive. For a time, she attended the Indiana School for the Blind. Her family moved to Georgia where Erin attended high school. After high school, Erin wanted to go to college where she felt there would be a supportive program that would welcome her on campus. She attended the University of North Carolina at Chapple Hill. After graduating she decided to continue at UNC where she wanted to study law. The same program that gave her so much assistance during her undergraduate days was not able to provide the same services to Erin the graduate student. Even so, Erin had learned how to live, survive and obtain what she needed to go through the law program. After she received her law degree Erin began to do what she always wanted to do: She wanted to use the law to help people. So, she worked in programs such as Legal Aid in North Carolina and she also spent time as a mediator. She will describe all that for us. Like a number of people, when the pandemic began, she decided to pivot and start her own law firm. She focuses on estate planning. We have a good discussion about topics such as the differences between a will and a living trust. Erin offers many relevant and poignant thoughts and words of advice we all can find helpful. Erin is unstoppable by any standard as you will see. About the Guest: Erin Edgar, Esq., is a caring, heart-centered attorney, inspirational speaker and vocal artist. She loves helping clients: -- Plan for the future of their lives and businesses, ensuring that they have the support they need and helping them find ways to provide for their loved ones upon death. --Ensure that the leave a legacy of love and reflect client values -- Find creative ways that allow them to impact the world with a lasting legacy. She is passionate about connecting with clients on a heart level. She loves witnessing her clients as she guides them to transform their intentions for their loved ones into a lasting legacy through the estate planning process. Erin speaks about ways to meld proven legal tools, strategies, and customization with the creative process to design legal solutions that give people peace of mind, clarity, and the assurance that their loved ones will be taken care of, and the world will be left a better place Ways to connect with Erin: Facebook: https://facebook.com/erin-edgar-legal LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erinedgar About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're here with us, wherever you may be. Hope the day is going well, and we have Erin Edgar on our episode today. Edgar is a very interesting person in a lot of ways. She's a caring, heart centered attorney. She is also an inspirational speaker and a vocal artist. I'm not sure whether vocal artistry comes into play when she's in the courtroom, but we won't worry about that too much. I assume that you don't sing to your judges when you're trying to deal with something. But anyway, I'll let her answer that. I'm just trying to cause trouble, but Erin again. We're really glad you're with us. We really appreciate you being here, and I know you do a lot with estate planning and other kinds of things that'll be fun to talk about. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Erin Edgar ** 02:14 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here, and I haven't sung in a courtroom or a courthouse yet, but I wouldn't rule it out.   Michael Hingson ** 02:23 I have someone who I know who also has a guide dog and his diet. His guide dog, it's been a while since I've seen him, but his guide dog tended to be very vocal, especially at unexpected times, and he said that occasionally happened in the courtroom, which really busted up the place. Oh, dear.   Erin Edgar ** 02:45 I imagine that would draw some smiles, hopefully, smiles.   Michael Hingson ** 02:48 Well, they were, yeah, do you, do you appear in court much?   Erin Edgar ** 02:53 Um, no, the type of law that I practice, I'm usually, I don't think I've ever appeared in court after I've written people's wills, but I have done previous things where I was in court mediating disputes, which is a kind of a separate thing that I used to do, so I've been in court just not recently. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, that's understandable. Well, let's start a little bit with the early Erin and growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tell us about that? Sure.   Erin Edgar ** 03:26 So I was born in cold, gray Indiana, and, yeah, chilly in the wintertime, and I started out I was blind from birth, so my parents thought it would be a good idea to send me to the school for the blind for a while. And back when I was born, um, teen years ago, they did not mainstream visually impaired and disabled students in that state, so you went where you could, and I was at the blind school for until I reached third grade, and then we moved to Georgia, and I've been in the south ever since I live in North Carolina now, and I started going to public schools in fourth grade, and continued on that route all the way up through high school.   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 Oh, okay. And so then, what did you do?   Erin Edgar ** 04:29 So after, after that, I, you know, I was one of those high school students. I really wanted to get out of dodge and leave my high school behind. I went visiting a couple of colleges in Georgia, and I said to my parents, I said, I really don't like this. It's like going to high school again. Literally, I was meeting people I had been in high school with, and I decided, and was very grateful that my parents. Were able to rig it some way so that I could go to an out of state school. And I went to UNC Chapel Hill here in North Carolina, Tar Heels all the way. And I was there for undergrad. And then I got into law school there as well, which I was very excited about, because I didn't have to go anywhere, and graduated from law school again a while ago in the early 2000s   Michael Hingson ** 05:31 Okay, and so then you went straight into law from that.   Erin Edgar ** 05:37 I didn't I did some other things before I actually went into law itself. I worked with some local advocacy organizations, and I also mediated, as I said earlier, I did mediations with the county court, helping mediate criminal disputes. And we're talking about like things with you get in a dispute with your neighbor and you yell at each other, those kind of People's Court type things. They were fun and interesting. And then I did go into law. After that, I started working with Legal Aid of North Carolina, which is a an organization that helps people in poverty who cannot afford a lawyer to go and have have their options communicated to them and some help given to them regarding their public benefits or certain other, you know, public things that we could help with we weren't able to help with any personal injury, or, you know, any of the fun stuff you see on TV. So and then, when the pandemic hit, I started my own law practice and completely changed gears and went into writing estate plans and wills for a living.   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 Do you think that your time doing mediation work and so on taught you a lot about humanity and human nature and people?   Erin Edgar ** 07:16 It did. I bet it did. It was invaluable, actually, in that area taught me a lot about, I don't know necessarily, about human nature. However, it did teach me a lot about how to talk to people who were on different pages. You know, they had, perhaps, values and principles that weren't quite the same, where they had a different way of looking at the same exact situation, and how to bring those those people together and allow them to connect on a deeper level, rather than the argument we're able to get them to agree to kind of move forward from that, so nobody has to be found guilty, right? And you know a judge doesn't have and you don't have to drag a criminal conviction around with you. I think the most rewarding cases that I had, by far were the education cases. Because I don't know if anyone knows this, but in most states, in the United States, if you don't send your kids to school, you are guilty of a crime. It's called truancy, and you can be arrested. Well, the county that I live in was very forward thinking, and the school system and the court said, that's kind of dumb. We don't want to arrest parents if their kids aren't going to school, there's something behind it. You know, there the school is not providing what the child needs. The child's acting out for some reason, and we need to get to the bottom of it. So what they did was they set up a process whereby we come in as neutral observers. We did not work for the court. We were part of a separate organization, and have a school social worker there or counselor, and also have a parent there, and they could talk through the issues. And in a lot of cases, if the children were old enough, they were teenagers, they were there, and they could talk about it from their perspective. And truly amazing things came out of those situations. We could just we would discover that the children had a behavioral issue or even a disability that had not been recognized, and were able to come up with plans to address that with you know, or the school was with our help,   Michael Hingson ** 09:42 going back a little bit, how did your parents deal with the fact that you were blind? I gather it was a fairly positive experience   Erin Edgar ** 09:50 for me. It was positive. I was so fortunate, and I'm still so grateful to this day for having parents who you. I were very forward thinking, and advocated for me to have and do whatever, not whatever I wanted, because I was far from spoiled, but, you know, whatever, yeah, yeah, you know. But whatever, however I wanted to be successful, they advocated for me. And so my mother actually told me, you know, when I was born, they went through all the parent things like, oh, gosh, what did we do wrong? You know, why is God punishing us? You know, all that. And they, very early on, found support groups for, you know, parents with children with either blindness or disabilities of some sort, and that was a great source of help to them. And as I grew up, they made every effort to ensure that I had people who could teach me, if they couldn't, you know, how to interact with other children. I think, for a while when I was very little, and I actually kind of remember this, they hired an occupational therapist to come and teach me how to play with kids, because not only was I blind, but I was an only child, so I didn't have brothers and sisters to interact with, and that whole play thing was kind of a mystery to me, and I remember it sort of vaguely, but that's just A demonstration that they wanted me to have the best life possible and to be fully integrated into the sighted world as much as possible. So when I was at the blind school, and I was in this residential environment, and there was an added bonus that my parents didn't really weren't happy in their jobs either, and they weren't happy with the education I was getting, that they decided, well, we're just going to pick up and move and that was, quite frankly, as I look back on it now, a huge risk for them. And they did it, you know, 50% for me and 50% for them, maybe even 6040, but as I look back on it now, it's another demonstration of how supportive they were, and all the way through my school age years, were very active in ensuring that I had everything that I needed and that I had the support that I needed.   Michael Hingson ** 12:19 That's cool. How did it go when you went to college at UNC?   Erin Edgar ** 12:25 Yeah, that's an interesting question, a very good question.   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 You didn't play basketball, I assume? Oh no, I figured you had other things to do.   Erin Edgar ** 12:33 Yeah, I had other stuff to do. I sang in the choir and sang with the medieval chorus group, and, you know, all this other, like, musical geek, geeky stuff. But, or, and when we were looking for colleges and universities, one of the criteria was they had to have a solid kind of, like disability, slash visually impaired center, or, you know, support staff that would help in, you know, allow people with disabilities to go through the university. So at UNC Chapel Hill, the they had as part of their student affairs department Disability Services, and it just so happened that they were very aware of accommodations that blind people needed. I wasn't the first blind student to go through undergrad there. That's not law school, that's undergrad. And so you know, how much was it? Time and a half on on tests if I was doing them on the computer, double time if I was doing them in Braille. A lot of the tests were in Braille because they had the technology to do it. And also the gentleman who ran the Disability Services Department, I think, knew Braille, if I'm not mistaken, and could transcribe if necessary. But I was at the stage at that point where I was typing most of my exams anyway, and didn't need much that was in Braille, because I had books either electronically or they had a network of folks in the community that would volunteer to read if there was not, you know, available textbooks from RFD, and what is it, RFP and D? Now was at the time, yeah, now Learning Ally, there wasn't a Bookshare at that time, so we couldn't use Bookshare, but if there weren't textbooks available, they would have people in the community who would read them for them, and they would get paid a little bit. Now, when I went to law school, it was a totally different ball game, because I was the first law student who was blind, that UNC Chapel Hill had had, and it was a different school within the school, so that student affairs department was not part of law school anymore, and we had quite a time the first semester getting my book. Works in a format that I could read them in. They did eventually, kind of broker a deal, if you will, with the publishers who were either Thompson Reuters or Westlaw at the time to get electronic versions. They were floppy disks. This is how old I am. Floppy disks. They were in this weird format. I think it was word perfect or something. Usually it was, and they   Michael Hingson ** 15:27 didn't really have a lot of them new or no, they didn't know now, newer publishing system,   Erin Edgar ** 15:32 yeah, there wasn't PDF even, I don't think, at the time. And the agreement was I could get those, and I actually had to buy the print textbooks as well. So I have this whole bookcase of law books that are virgin, unopened, almost. And they are, you know, some of them almost 25 years old, never been opened and of no use to anyone. But I have them, and they look nice sitting down there in that bookshelf antiques books. They're antiques. So the first year was a little rough, because for a while I didn't have books, and we were able to make arrangements so that I could kind of make up some classes on a later year and switch things around a little bit. And it ended up all working out really well once we got started.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah, I remember when I was going through getting my bachelor's and master's in physics, I needed the books in braille because, well, it's the only way to be able to really deal with the subject. You can't do it nearly as well from recordings, although now there's a little bit better capability through recording, because we have the DayZ format and so on. But still, it's not the same as reading it in Braille and for mathematics and physics and so on. I think that the only way to really do it is in Braille. And we had challenges because professors didn't want to decide what books to use until the last minute, because then, oh, a new book might be coming out and we want to get the latest book, and that didn't work for me, right? Because I had a network that I, in part, I developed with the Department of Rehabilitation out here, helped our office for disabled students didn't really have the resources to know it. They were very supportive. They just didn't really deal with it. But the bottom line is that we had to develop, I had to develop the network of transcribers, but they needed three to six months to do the books, at least three months and and sometimes I would get them one or two volumes at a time, and they barely kept ahead of the class. But, you know, it worked, but professors resisted it. And my the person who ran the Office for Students with Disabilities, said, Look, you have to work on these things, but if you're not getting cooperation from professors, and you come and tell me, and I will use the power of this office to get you what you need, there's another thing you might consider doing, she said. And I said, What's that? And Jan said, Go meet the chancellor. Make friends, yeah, friends in high places. And so I did. And Dan, oh, there you go. Became pretty good friends over the years, which was pretty cool,   Erin Edgar ** 18:15 you know, it was weird because we didn't, I didn't have that problem with the professors. They were, you know, I had a couple of old codgers, but they weren't really worried about the books. They were fine with me having the books, but it was the publishers. The publishers were irritated that that I needed them, and, you know, in an alternative format. And I didn't really, I was not. I was one of those people that if someone said they were going to do something for me, I kind of let people do it. And at the time, I was really not an advocate, advocator for myself, at that time, a very good self advocate. And so I kind of let the school interface with that. I think it would have been really interesting, if I look back on it, for me to have taken a hand in that. And I wonder what would have happened well, and at this point, you know, it's neither here nor there, but that's really fascinating. Making Friends with the chancellor, sometimes you have to do stuff like that   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 well. And the idea was really to get to know Him. And what there was, well, obviously other motivations, like, if we needed to go to a higher court to get help, we could go to the chancellor. I never had to do that, but, but the reason for meeting him and getting to know him was really just to do it and to have fun doing it. So we did,   Erin Edgar ** 19:36 yeah, and I kind of had a comparable experience. I met the Dean of the Law School for that very reason. And he said, you know, if you've got trouble, come to me, my parents got involved a little bit. And we all, you know, met together and maybe even separately at some points just to make sure that I had everything that I needed at various times. Mm. Yeah, and I made friends with the some of the assistant deans at the law school, in particular because of the situation, and one of whom was the Dean of the Law School Student Affairs, who was helping me to get what I needed. And for a while, when I was in law school and beyond. He was like, We lent books to each other. It was very funny. We found out we had the same reading tastes beyond law books. It wasn't, you know, legal at all, but we were like, trading books and things. So a lot of really good relationships came out of that.   Michael Hingson ** 20:37 And I think that's extremely important to to do. And I think that's one of the things that that offices for students with disabilities that tend to want to do everything for you. I think that's one of the things that it's a problem with those offices, because if you don't learn to do them, and if you don't learn to do them in college, how are you going to be able to be able to really act independently and as an advocate after college, so you have to learn that stuff   Erin Edgar ** 21:05 Absolutely. That's a very good point.   Michael Hingson ** 21:09 So I, I think it was extremely important to do it, and we did, and had a lot of fun doing it. So it was, was good. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you think that people had about you as a blind child growing up?   Erin Edgar ** 21:25 Oh yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that people had about me, especially when I was younger, is that I would know I would be sort of relegated to staying at home with parents all of my life, or being a stay at home parent and not able to be kind of professionally employed and earning, you know, earning a living wage. Now, I have my own business, and that's where most of my money goes at the same at this point. So, you know, earning a living wage might be up in the air at the moment. Ha, ha. But the the one thing I think that the biggest misconception that people had, and this is even like teachers at the blind school, it was very rare for blind children of my age to grow up and be, you know, professionals in, I don't want to say high places, but like people able to support themselves without a government benefit backing them up. And it was kind of always assumed that we would be in that category, that we would be less able than our sighted peers to do that. And so that was a huge misconception, even you know, in the school that I was attending. I think that was the, really the main one and one misconception that I had then and still have today, is that if I'm blind, I can't speak for myself. This still happens today. For instance, if I'm if I want, if I'm going somewhere and I just happen to be with someone sighted, they will talk whoever I'm, wherever I'm at, they will talk to the sighted person, right? They won't talk to you. They won't talk to me. And so, for instance, simple example, if I'm somewhere with my husband, and we happen to be walking together and we go somewhere that I need to go, they will talk to him because he's guiding me, and they won't talk. And he's like, don't talk to me. I have no idea, you know, talk to her, and part of that is I'm half a step behind him. People naturally gravitate to the people that are leading. However, I noticed, even when I was a young adult, and I would go, you know, to the doctor, and I would be with my my parents, like, maybe I'm visiting them, and I need to go to the doctor, they would talk to them and not me, yeah, which is kind of sad. And I think it happens a lot, a lot more than people realize.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 Yeah, it does. And one of my favorite stories is, is this, I got married in 1982 and my wife has always been, or had always been. She passed away in 2022 but she was always in a wheelchair. And we went to a restaurant one Saturday for breakfast. We were standing at the counter waiting to be seated, and the hostess was behind the counter, and nothing was happening. And finally, Karen said to me, she doesn't know who to talk to, you know? Because Karen, of course, is, is in a wheelchair, so actually, she's clearly shorter than this, this person behind the counter, and then there's me and and, of course, I'm not making eye contact, and so Karen just said she doesn't know who to talk to. I said, you know? All she's gotta do is ask us where we would like to sit or if we'd like to have breakfast, and we can make it work. Well, she she got the message, and she did, and the rest of the the day went fine, but that was really kind of funny, that we had two of us, and she just didn't know how to deal with either of us, which was kind of cute. Mm, hmm. Well, you know, it brings up another question. You use the term earlier, visually impaired. There's been a lot of effort over the years. A lot of the professionals, if you will, created this whole terminology of visually impaired, and they say, well, you're blind or you're visually impaired. And visually impaired means you're not totally blind, but, but you're still visually impaired. And finally, blind people, I think, are starting to realize what people who are deaf learned a long time ago, and that is that if you take take a deaf person and you refer to them as hearing impaired, there's no telling what they might do to you, because they recognize that impaired is not true and they shouldn't be equated with people who have all of their hearing. So it's deaf or hard of hearing, which is a whole lot less of an antagonistic sort of concept than hearing impaired. We're starting to get blind people, and not everyone's there yet, and we're starting to get agencies, and not every agency is there yet, to recognize that it's blind or low vision, as opposed to blind or here or visually impaired, visually impaired. What do you think about that? How does and how does that contribute to the attitudes that people had toward you?   Erin Edgar ** 26:38 Yeah, so when I was growing up, I was handicapped, yeah, there was that too, yeah, yeah, that I was never fond of that, and my mother softened it for me, saying, well, we all have our handicaps or shortcomings, you know, and but it was really, what was meant was you had Something that really held you back. I actually, I say, this is so odd. I always, I usually say I'm totally blind. Because when I say blind, the immediate question people have is, how blind are you? Yeah, which gets back to stuff, yeah, yeah. If you're blind, my opinion, if you're blind, you're you're blind, and if you have low vision, you have partial sight. And visually impaired used to be the term, you know, when I was younger, that people use, and that's still a lot. It's still used a lot, and I will use it occasionally, generally. I think that partially sighted, I have partial vision is, is what I've heard people use. That's what, how my husband refers to himself. Low Vision is also, you know, all those terms are much less pejorative than actually being impaired,   Michael Hingson ** 27:56 right? That's kind of really the issue, yeah. My, my favorite example of all of this is a past president of the National Federation of the Blind, Ken Jernigan, you've heard of him, I assume, Oh, sure. He created a document once called a definition of blindness, and his definition, he goes through and discusses various conditions, and he asks people if, if you meet these conditions, are you blind or not? But then what he eventually does is he comes up with a definition, and his definition, which I really like, is you are blind if your eyesight has decreased to the point where you have to use alternatives to full eyesight in order to function, which takes into account totally blind and partially blind people. Because the reality is that most of those people who are low vision will probably, or they may probably, lose the rest of their eyesight. And the agencies have worked so hard to tell them, just use your eyesight as best you can. And you know you may need to use a cane, but use your eyesight as best you can, and if you go blind, then we're going to have to teach you all over again, rather than starting by saying blindness is really okay. And the reality is that if you learn the techniques now, then you can use the best of all worlds.   Erin Edgar ** 29:26 I would agree with that. I would also say you should, you know, people should use what they have. Yeah, using everything you have is okay. And I think there's a lot of a lot of good to be said for learning the alternatives while you're still able to rely on something else.   Michael Hingson ** 29:49 Point taken exactly you know, because   Erin Edgar ** 29:53 as you age, you get more and more in the habit of doing things one way, and it's. Very hard to break out of that. And if you haven't learned an alternative, there's nothing you feel like. There's nothing to fall back on, right? And it's even harder because now you're in the situation of urgency where you feel like you're missing something and you're having to learn something new, whereas if you already knew it and knew different ways to rely on things you would be just like picking a memory back up, rather than having to learn something new. Well, I've never been in that position, so I can't say, but in the abstract, I think that's a good definition.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 Well, there are a lot of examples, like, take a person who has some eyesight, and they're not encouraged to use a cane. And I know someone who was in this situation. I think I've told the story on this podcast, but he lived in New Jersey and was travel. And traveled every day from New Jersey into Philadelphia to work, and he was on a reasonably cloudy day, was walking along. He had been given a cane by the New Jersey Commission for the Blind, but he they didn't really stress the value of using it. And so he was walking along the train to go in, and he came to the place where he could turn in and go into the car. And he did, and promptly fell between two cars because he wasn't at the right place. And then the train actually started to move, but they got it stopped, and so he was okay, but as as he tells the story, he certainly used his cane from then on. Because if he had been using the cane, even though he couldn't see it well because it was dark, or not dark, cloudy, he would have been able to see that he was not at the place where the car entrance was, but rather he was at the junction between two cars. And there's so many examples of that. There's so many reasons why it's important to learn the skills. Should a partially blind or a low vision person learn to read Braille? Well, depends on circumstances, of course, I think, to a degree, but the value of learning Braille is that you have an alternative to full print, especially if there's a likelihood that you're going to lose the rest of your eyesight. If you psychologically do it now, that's also going to psychologically help you prepare better for not having any eyesight later.   Erin Edgar ** 32:20 And of course, that leads to to blind children these days learn how to read, yeah, which is another issue.   Michael Hingson ** 32:28 Which is another issue because educators are not teaching Braille nearly as much as they should, and the literacy rate is so low. And the fact of the matter is even with George Kircher, who invented the whole DAISY format and and all the things that you can do with the published books and so on. The reality is there is still something to be said for learning braille. You don't have sighted children just watching television all the time, although sometimes my parents think they do, but, but the point is that they learn to read, and there's a value of really learning to read. I've been in an audience where a blind speaker was delivering a speech, and he didn't know or use Braille. He had a device that was, I think what he actually used was a, was, it was a Victor Reader Stream, which is   Erin Edgar ** 33:24 one of those, right?   Michael Hingson ** 33:25 I think it was that it may have been something else, but the bottom line is, he had his speech written out, and he would play it through earphones, and then he would verbalize his speech. Oh, no, that's just mess me up. Oh, it would. It was very disjointed and and I think that for me, personally, I read Braille pretty well, but I don't like to read speeches at all. I want to engage the audience, and so it's really important to truly speak with the audience and not read or do any of those other kinds of things.   Erin Edgar ** 33:57 I would agree. Now I do have a Braille display that I, I use, and, you know, I do use it for speeches. However, I don't put the whole speech on   Michael Hingson ** 34:10 there that I me too. I have one, and I use it for, I know, I have notes. Mm, hmm,   Erin Edgar ** 34:16 notes, yeah. And so I feel like Braille, especially for math. You know, when you said math and physics, like, Yeah, I can't imagine doing math without Braille. That just doesn't, you know, I can't imagine it, and especially in, you know, geometry and trigonometry with those diagrams. I don't know how you would do it without a Braille textbook, but yeah, there. There's certainly something to be said for for the the wonderful navigation abilities with, you know, e published audio DAISY books. However, it's not a substitute for knowing how to   Michael Hingson ** 34:55 read. Well, how are you going to learn to spell? How are you going to really learn sit? Structure, how are you going to learn any of those basic skills that sighted kids get if you don't use Braille? Absolutely, I think that that's one of the arenas where the educational system, to a large degree, does such a great disservice to blind kids because it won't teach them Braille.   Erin Edgar ** 35:16 Agreed, agreed. Well, thank you for this wonderful spin down Braille, Braille reading lane here. That was fun.   Michael Hingson ** 35:27 Well, so getting back to you a little bit, you must have thought or realized that probably when you went into law, you were going to face some challenges. But what was the defining moment that made you decide you're going to go into law, and what kind of challenges have you faced? If you face challenges, my making an assumption, but you know what?   Erin Edgar ** 35:45 Oh, sure. So the defining moment when I decided I wanted to go into law. It was a very interesting time for me. I was teenager. Don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was in high school, and I had gone through a long period where I wanted to, like, be a music major and go into piano and voice and be a performer in those arenas, and get a, you know, high level degree whatnot. And then I began having this began becoming very interested in watching the Star Trek television series. Primarily I was out at the time the next generation, and I was always fascinated by the way that these people would find these civilizations on these planets, and they would be at odds in the beginning, and they would be at each other's throats, and then by the end of the day, they were all kind of   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 liking each other. And John Luke Picard didn't play a flute,   Erin Edgar ** 36:47 yes, and he also turned into a Borg, which was traumatic for me. I had to rate local summer to figure out what would happen. I was in I was in trauma. Anyway, my my father and I bonded over that show. It was, it was a wonderful sort of father daughter thing. We did it every weekend. And I was always fascinated by, like, the whole, the whole aspect of different ideologies coming together. And it always seemed to me that that's what human humanity should be about. As I, you know, got older, I thought, how could I be involved in helping people come together? Oh, let's go into law. Because, you know, our government's really good at that. That was the high school student in me. And I thought at the time, I wanted to go into the Foreign Service and work in the international field and help, you know, on a net, on a you know, foreign policy level. I quickly got into law school and realized two things simultaneously in my second year, international law was very boring, and there were plenty of problems in my local community that I could help solve, like, why work on the international stage when people in my local community are suffering in some degree with something and so I completely changed my focus to wanting to work in an area where I could bring people together and work for, you know, work on an individualized level. And as I went into the legal field, that was, it was part of the reason I went into the mediation, because that was one of the things that we did, was helping people come together. I realized, though, as I became a lawyer and actually started working in the field, most of the legal system is not based on that. It's based on who has the best argument. I wanted no part of that. Yeah, I want no part of that at all. I want to bring people together. Still, the Star Trek mentality is working here, and so when I when I started my own law firm, my immediate question to myself was, how can I now that I'm out doing my own thing, actually bring people together? And the answer that I got was help families come together, especially people thinking about their end of life decisions and gathering their support team around them. Who they want to help them? If they are ever in a situation where they become ill and they can't manage their affairs, or if you know upon their death, who do they want to help them and support them. And how can I use the law to allow that to happen? And so that's how I am working, to use the law for healing and bringing people together, rather than rather than winning an argument.   Michael Hingson ** 39:59 Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of merit to that. I I value the law a great deal, and I I am not an attorney or anything like that, but I have worked in the world of legislation, and I've worked in the world of dealing with helping to get legislation passed and and interacting with lawyers. And my wife and I worked with an attorney to set up our our trust, and then couple of years ago, I redid it after she passed away. And so I think that there was a lot of a lot of work that attorneys do that is extremely important. Yeah, there are, there are attorneys that were always dealing with the best arguments, and probably for me, the most vivid example of that, because it was so captivating when it happened, was the whole OJ trial back in the 1990s we were at a county fair, and we had left going home and turned on the radio, only To hear that the police were following OJ, and they finally arrested him. And then when the trial occurred, we while I was working at a company, and had a radio, and people would would come around, and we just had the radio on, and followed the whole trial. And it was interesting to see all the manipulation and all the movement, and you're right. It came down to who had the best argument, right or wrong?   Erin Edgar ** 41:25 The bloody glove. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. Yeah, yep, I remember that. I remember where I was when they arrested him, too. I was at my grandparents house, and we were watching it on TV. My grandfather was captivated by the whole thing. But yes, there's certainly, you know, some manipulation. There's also, there are also lawyers who do a lot of good and a lot of wonderful things. And in reality, you know, most cases don't go to trial. They're settled in some way. And so, you know, there isn't always, you know, who has the best argument. It's not always about that, right? And at the same time, that is, you know, what the system is based on, to some extent. And really, when our country was founded, our founding fathers were a bunch of, like, acted in a lot of ways, like a bunch of children. If you read books on, you know, the Constitution, it was, it was all about, you know, I want this in here, and I want that in here. And, you know, a lot of argument around that, which, of course, is to be expected. And many of them did not expect our country's government to last beyond their lifetimes. Uh, James Madison was the exception, but all the others were like, Ed's going to fail. And yet, I am very, very proud to be a lawyer in this country, because while it's not perfect, our founding documents actually have a lot of flexibility and how and can be interpreted to fit modern times, which is, I think the beauty of them and exactly what the Founders intended for.   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 Yeah, and I do think that some people are taking advantage of that and causing some challenges, but that's also part of our country and part of our government. I like something Jimmy Carter once said, which was, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think absolutely that's the part that I think sometimes is occasionally being lost, that we forget those principles, or we want to manipulate the principles and make them something that they're not. But he was absolutely right. That is what we need to do, and we can adjust to changing times without sacrificing principles. Absolutely.   Erin Edgar ** 43:55 I firmly believe that, and I would like to kind of turn it back to what we were talking about before, because you actually asked me, What are some challenges that I have faced, and if it's okay with you, I would like to get back to that. Oh, sure. Okay. Well, so I have faced some challenges for you know, to a large extent, though I was very well accommodated. I mean, the one challenge with the books that was challenging when I took the bar exam, oh, horror of horrors. It was a multiple, multiple shot deal, but it finally got done. However, it was not, you know, my failing to pass the first time or times was not the fault of the actual board of law examiners. They were very accommodating. I had to advocate for myself a little bit, and I also had to jump through some hoops. For example, I had to bring my own person to bubble in my responses on the multiple choice part, it. And bring my own person in to kind of monitor me while I did the essay portion. But they allowed me to have a computer, they allowed me to have, you know, the screen reader. They allowed me to have time and a half to do the the exam. And so we're accommodating in that way. And so no real challenges there. You know, some hoops to jump through. But it got all worked out.   Michael Hingson ** 45:23 And even so, some of that came about because blind people actually had to go all the way to the Supreme Court. Yes, the bar to the Bar Association to recognize that those things needed to be that way,   Erin Edgar ** 45:37 absolutely. And so, you know, I was lucky to come into this at a time where that had already been kind of like pre done for me. I didn't have to deal with that as a challenge. And so the only other challenges I had, some of them, were mine, like, you know, who's going to want to hire this blind person? Had a little bit of, you know, kind of challenge there, with that mindset issue for a while there, and I did have some challenges when I was looking for employment after I'd worked for legal aid for a while, and I wanted to move on and do something else. And I knew I didn't want to work for a big, big firm, and I would, I was talking to some small law firms about hiring me, small to mid size firms. And I would get the question of, well, you're blind, so what kind of accommodations do you need? And we would talk about, you know, computer, special software to make a talk, you know, those kinds of things. And it always ended up that, you know, someone else was hired. And I can, you know, I don't have proof that the blindness and the hesitancy around hiring a disabled person or a blind person was in back of that decision. And at the same time, I had the sense that there was some hesitation there as well, so that, you know, was a bit of a challenge, and starting my own law firm was its own challenge, because I had to experiment with several different software systems to Find one that was accessible enough for me to use. And the system I'm thinking about in particular, I wouldn't use any other system, and yet, I'm using practically the most expensive estate planning drafting system out there, because it happens to be the most accessible. It's also the most expensive. Always that. There's always that. And what's it called? I'm curious. It's called wealth Council, okay, wealth. And then the word councils, Council, SEL, and it's wonderful. And the folks there are very responsive. If I say something's not accessible, I mean, they have fixed things for me in the past. Isn't that great? And complain, isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. And that's, that's awesome. I had a CRM experience with a couple of different like legal CRM software. I used one for a while, and it was okay. But then, you know, everyone else said this other one was better and it was actually less accessible. So I went back to the previous one, you know. So I have to do a lot of my own testing, which is kind of a challenge in and of itself. I don't have people testing software for me. I have to experiment and test and in some cases, pay for something for a while before I realize it's not, you know, not worth it. But now I have those challenges pretty much ironed out. And I have a paralegal who helps me do some things that, like she proof reads my documents, for instance, because otherwise there may be formatting things that I'm not, that I miss. And so I have the ability to have cited assistance with things that I can't necessarily do myself, which is, you know, absolutely fine,   Michael Hingson ** 49:04 yeah. Now, do you use Lexus? Is it accessible?   Erin Edgar ** 49:08 I don't need Lexus, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have, I'm a member of the Bar Association, of my, my state bar association, which is not, not voluntary. It's mandatory. But I'm a member primarily because they have a search, a legal search engine that they work with that we get for free. I mean, with our members, there you go. So there you go. So I don't need Lexus or West Law or any of those other search engines for what I do. And if I was, like, really into litigation and going to court all time and really doing deep research, I would need that. But I don't. I can use the one that they have, that we can use so and it's, it's a entirely web based system. It's fairly accessible   Michael Hingson ** 49:58 well, and. That makes it easier to as long as you've got people's ears absolutely make it accessible, which makes a lot of sense.   Erin Edgar ** 50:08 Yeah, it certainly does well.   Michael Hingson ** 50:10 So do you regard yourself as a resilient person? Has blindness impacted that or helped make that kind of more the case for you? Do you think I do resilience is such an overused term, but it's fair. I know   Erin Edgar ** 50:24 I mean resilience is is to my mind, a resilient person is able to face uh, challenges with a relatively positive outlook in and view a challenge as something to be to be worked through rather than overcome, and so yes, I do believe that blindness, in and of itself, has allowed me to find ways to adapt to situations and pivot in cases where, you know, I need to find an alternative to using a mouse. For instance, how would I do that? And so in other areas of life, I am, you know, because I'm blind, I'm able to more easily pivot into finding alternative solutions. I do believe that that that it has made me more resilient.   Michael Hingson ** 51:25 Do you think that being blind has caused you, and this is an individual thing, because I think that there are those who don't. But do you think that it's caused you to learn to listen better?   Erin Edgar ** 51:39 That's a good question, because I actually, I have a lot of sighted friends, and one of the things that people just assume is that, wow, you must be a really good listener. Well, my husband would tell you that's not always the case. Yeah. My wife said the same thing, yeah. You know, like everyone else, sometimes I hear what I want to hear in a conversation and at the same time, one of the things that I do tell people is that, because I'm blind, I do rely on other senses more, primarily hearing, I would say, and that hearing provides a lot of cues for me about my environment, and I've learned to be more skillful at it. So I, I would say that, yes, I am a good listener in terms of my environment, very sensitive to that in in my environment, in terms of active listening to conversations and being able to listen to what's behind what people say, which is another aspect of listening. I think that that is a skill that I've developed over time with conscious effort. I don't think I'm any better of a quote, unquote listener than anybody else. If I hadn't developed that primarily in in my mediation, when I was doing that, that was a huge thing for us, was to be able to listen, not actually to what people were saying, but what was behind what people were saying, right? And so I really consciously developed that skill during those years and took it with me into my legal practice, which is why I am very, very why I very much stress that I'm not only an attorney, but I'm also a counselor at law. That doesn't mean I'm a therapist, but it does mean I listen to what people say so that and what's behind what people say, so that with the ear towards providing them the legal solution that meets their needs as they describe them in their words.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 Well, I think for me, I learned to listen, but it but it is an exercise, and it is something that you need to practice, and maybe I learned to do it a little bit better, because I was blind. For example, I learned to ride a bike, and you have to learn to listen to what's going on around you so you don't crash into cars. Oh, but I'd fall on my face. You can do it. But what I what I really did was, when I was I was working at a company, and was told that the job was going to be phased out because I wasn't a revenue producer, and the company was an engineering startup and had to bring in more revenue producers. And I was given the choice of going away or going into sales, which I had never done. And as I love to tell people, I lowered my standards and went from science to sales. But the reality is that that I think I've always and I think we all always sell in one way or another, but I also knew what the unemployment rate among employable blind people was and is, yeah, and so I went into sales with with no qualms. But there I really learned to listen. And and it was really a matter of of learning to commit, not just listen, but really learning to communicate with the people you work with. And I think that that I won't say blindness made me better, but what it did for me was it made me use the technologies like the telephone, perhaps more than some other people. And I did learn to listen better because I worked at it, not because I was blind, although they're related   Erin Edgar ** 55:30 exactly. Yeah, and I would say, I would 100% agree I worked at it. I mean, even when I was a child, I worked at listening to to become better at, kind of like analyzing my environment based on sounds that were in it. Yeah, I wouldn't have known. I mean, it's not a natural gift, as some people assume, yeah, it's something you practice and you have to work at. You get to work at.   Michael Hingson ** 55:55 Well, as I point out, there are people like SEAL Team Six, the Navy Seals and the Army Rangers and so on, who also practice using all of their senses, and they learn, in general, to become better at listening and other and other kinds of skills, because they have to to survive, but, but that's what we all do, is if we do it, right, we're learning it. It's not something that's just naturally there, right? I agree, which I think is important. So you're working in a lot of estate planning and so on. And I mentioned earlier that we it was back in 1995 we originally got one, and then it's now been updated, but we have a trust. What's the difference between having, like a trust and a will?   Erin Edgar ** 56:40 Well, that's interesting that you should ask. So A will is the minimum that pretty much, I would say everyone needs, even though 67% of people don't have one in the US. And it is pretty much what everyone needs. And it basically says, you know, I'm a, I'm a person of sound mind, and I know who is important to me and what I have that's important to me. And I wanted to go to these people who are important to me, and by the way, I want this other person to manage things after my death. They're also important to me and a trust, basically, there are multiple different kinds of trusts, huge numbers of different kinds. And the trust that you probably are referring to takes the will to kind of another level and provides more direction about about how to handle property and how how it's to be dealt with, not only after death, but also during your lifetime. And trusts are relatively most of them, like I said, there are different kinds, but they can be relatively flexible, and you can give more direction about how to handle that property than you can in a will, like, for instance, if you made an estate plan and your kids were young, well, I don't want my children to have access to this property until they're responsible adults. So maybe saying, in a trust until they're age 25 you can do that, whereas in a will, you it's more difficult to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 And a will, as I understand it, is a lot more easily contested than than a trust.   Erin Edgar ** 58:24 You know, it does depend, but yes, it is easily contested. That's not to say that if you have a trust, you don't need a will, which is a misconception that some, yeah, we have a will in our trust, right? And so, you know, you need the will for the court. Not everyone needs a trust. I would also venture to say that if you don't have a will on your death, the law has ideas about how your property should be distributed. So if you don't have a will, you know your property is not automatically going to go to the government as unclaimed, but if you don't have powers of attorney for your health care and your finance to help you out while you're alive, you run the risk of the A judge appointing someone you would not want to make your health care and financial decisions. And so I'm going to go off on a tangent here. But I do feel very strongly about this, even blind people who and disabled people who are, what did you call it earlier, the the employable blind community, but maybe they're not employed. They don't have a lot of   Michael Hingson ** 59:34 unemployed, unemployed, the unemployable blind people, employable   Erin Edgar ** 59:38 blind people, yes, you know, maybe they're not employed, they're on a government benefit. They don't have a lot of assets. Maybe they don't necessarily need that will. They don't have to have it. And at the same time, if they don't have those, those documents that allow people to manage their affairs during their lifetime. Um, who's going to do it? Yeah, who's going to do that? Yeah, you're giving up control of your body, right, potentially, to someone you would not want, just because you're thinking to yourself, well, I don't need a will, and nothing's going to happen to me. You're giving control of your body, perhaps, to someone you don't want. You're not taking charge of your life and and you are allowing doctors and hospitals and banks to perpetuate the belief that you are not an independent person, right? I'm very passionate about it. Excuse me, I'll get off my soapbox now. That's okay. Those are and and to a large extent, those power of attorney forms are free. You can download them from your state's website. Um, they're minimalistic. They're definitely, I don't use them because I don't like them for my state. But you can get you can use them, and you can have someone help you fill them out. You could sign them, and then look, you've made a decision about who's going to help you when you're not able to help yourself,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 which is extremely important to do. And as I mentioned, we went all the way and have a trust, and we funded the trust, and everything is in the trust. But I think that is a better way to keep everything protected, and it does provide so much more direction for whoever becomes involved, when, when you decide to go elsewhere, then, as they put it, this mortal coil. Yes, I assume that the coil is mortal. I don't know.   Erin Edgar ** 1:01:37 Yeah, who knows? Um, and you know trusts are good for they're not just for the Uber wealthy, which is another misconception. Trust do some really good things. They keep your situation, they keep everything more or less private, like, you know, I said you need a will for the court. Well, the court has the will, and it most of the time. If you have a trust, it just says, I want it to go, I want my stuff to go into the Michael hingson Trust. I'm making that up, by the way, and I, you know, my trust just deals with the distribution, yeah, and so stuff doesn't get held up in court. The court doesn't have to know about all the assets that you own. It's not all public record. And that's a huge, you know, some people care. They don't want everyone to know their business. And when I tell people, you know, I can go on E courts today and pull up the estate of anyone that I want in North Carolina and find out what they owned if they didn't have a will, or if they just had a will. And people like, really, you can do that? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I don't need any fancy credentials. It's all a matter of public record. And if you have a trust that does not get put into the court record unless it's litigated, which you know, it does happen, but not often,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:56 but I but again, I think that, you know, yeah, and I'm not one of those Uber wealthy people. But I have a house. We we used to have a wheelchair accessible van for Karen. I still have a car so that when I need to be driven somewhere, rather than using somebody else's vehicle, we use this and those are probably the two biggest assets, although I have a bank account with with some in it, not a lot, not nearly as much as Jack Benny, anyway. But anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, but the bottom line is that I think that the trust keeps everything a lot cleaner. And it makes perfect sense. Yep, it does. And I didn't even have to go to my general law firm that I usually use. Do we cheat them? Good, and how so it worked out really well. Hey, I watched the Marx Brothers. What can I say?   Erin Edgar ** 1:03:45 You watch the Marx Brothers? Of course.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we did it and that we also got to talk about the whole issue of wills and trusts and so on, which is, I think, important. So any last things that you'd like to say to people, and also, do you work with clients across the country or just in North Carolina?   Erin Edgar ** 1:04:06 So I work with clients in North Carolina, I will say that. And one last thing that I would like to say to people is that it's really important to build your support team. Whether you're blind, you know, have another disability, you need people to help you out on a day to day basis, or you decide that you want people to help you out. If you're unable to manage your affairs at some point in your life, it's very important to build that support team around you, and there is nothing wrong. You can be self reliant and still have people on your team yes to to be there for you, and that is very important. And there's absolutely no shame, and you're not relinquishing your independence by doing that. That. So today, I encourage everyone to start thinking about who's on your team. Do you want them on your team? Do you want different people on your team? And create a support team? However that looks like, whatever that looks like for you, that has people on it that you know, love and trust,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 everybody should have a support team. I think there is no question, at least in my mind, about that. So good point. Well, if people want to maybe reach out to you, how do they do that?   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:29 Sure, so I am on the interwebs at Erin Edgar legal.com that's my website where you can learn more about my law firm and all the things that I do,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:42 and Erin is E r i n, just Yes, say that Edgar, and   Erin Edgar ** 1:05:45 Edgar is like Edgar. Allan Poe, hopefully less scary, and you can find the contact information for me on the website. By Facebook, you can find me on Facebook occasionally as Erin Baker, Edgar, three separate words, that is my personal profile, or you can and Michael will have in the show notes the company page for my welcome as   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:11 well. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. This has been a fun episode. It's been great to have Erin on, love to hear your thoughts out there who have been listening to this today. Please let us know what you think. You're welcome to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, I wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate getting good ratings from people and reading and getting to know what you think. If you know anyone who you think might be a good guest, you know some people you think ought to come on unstoppable mindset. Erin, of course, you as well. We would appreciate it if you'd give us an introduction, because we're always looking for more people to have come on and help us show everyone that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and that's really what it's all about, and what we want to do on the podcast. So hope that you'll all do that, and in the meanwhile, with all that, Erin, I want to thank you once more for being here and being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much,   Erin Edgar ** 1:07:27 Michael. I very much enjoyed it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite

Tu es à un apéro networking, en face de quelqu'un qui coche toutes les cases de ton client idéal. Et là… la fameuse question tombe : « Et toi, tu fais quoi ? » Tu dis je suis ou je fais ? Tu annonces ton métier ? Tu décris ton activité ? Tu cherches à être compris·e ou à éveiller la curiosité ? Dans cette MM, je partage mes galères, mes tests, et des idées entendues chez d'autres indépendants pour mieux se présenter (ou esquiver, les jours sans). Et toi, t'as trouvé ta formule magique ?

On this episode the boys open the show recapping their time hosting 90s Trivia at the Cobblestone Ballroom, then Adam shares a WILD story about a Canadian man and tooth in eye surgery. Adam shares how AI is revolutionizing the ASMR and satisfaction videos game, much to Ryan's dismay. This leads to a conversation about internet consumption and the negative effects. In the meat, Mm!, top 5 fruits has been a topic of conversation in Adam's life so the boys list theirs and then in honor of Robert Redford they list their Mt Rushmore of Redford movies. RIP Roy & Sundance. Hut Hut. Intro Music "Upbeat" by Jon Luc Hefferman (No changes  were  made)  License Link    (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/legalcode) Outro Music    "Quittin' Time" by Patrick Lee (No changes were made) License Link  (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/legalcode)

2025 年 Q3 即將進入尾聲，市場也從震盪行情全面上攻，不斷創下歷史新高。而在這樣的行情下，未來的長線投資趨勢到底為何？M平方帶你掌握三大賽局、六大產業！ 本集邀請明日研究員 Jason 來聊聊，當初是如何發現這些產業的？六大領域中目前的產業現況如何？近期有沒有關注哪些新的產業？

Question of the day? Will they let Marcus play his own game Falcons looking to bounce back big time Revenge game for MM going back to ATL

In this insightful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin their series on Jesus's parables by examining the Parable of the Sower (or Soils). This foundational teaching from Christ reveals why some hearts receive the gospel message while others reject it. The hosts unpack the four soil types Jesus describes, exploring what each represents spiritually and how these patterns continue to manifest today. They emphasize that while the parable reveals different responses to the gospel, it also provides comfort for believers engaged in evangelism, reminding us that outcomes ultimately depend not on the sower's skill but on the condition of the soil—a condition that only God can prepare. This episode offers both theological depth and practical encouragement for Christians seeking to understand the various responses to the gospel message in their own ministry contexts. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower serves as a hermeneutical key for understanding all of Jesus's parables, as it directly addresses why Jesus taught in parables and provides the interpretive framework for understanding their purpose. The parable reveals four types of responses to the gospel (represented by the four soils), but only one that leads to genuine salvation and fruit-bearing. The focus of the parable is not on the sower's skill or the seed's quality but on the condition of the soil—emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation while encouraging continued evangelism. The "rocky ground" hearers represent those who initially receive the gospel with joy but have no root system to sustain them when trials come, often resulting in what we might call "deconstruction" today. Christians should expect varied responses to gospel proclamation and not be discouraged when the seed appears to be wasted on unresponsive hearts, as this pattern was predicted by Jesus himself. The parable provides a warning against shallow faith while encouraging believers to develop deep spiritual roots that can withstand persecution and trials. Genuine conversion is ultimately evidenced by fruit-bearing, not merely by initial enthusiasm or religious affiliation. Understanding the Soils The Parable of the Sower presents four distinct soil types, each representing different responses to the gospel message. The first soil—the path—represents hearts where the gospel makes no impact whatsoever; the seed simply bounces off and is quickly snatched away by Satan. This illustrates not merely outward rejection of the gospel, but also intellectual non-comprehension. As Tony explains, this doesn't necessarily mean active hostility toward the gospel but could simply be indifference: "It may not be someone who has like a closed fist, 'I hate the gospel, I hate everything about God,' but for some reason they're just not [interested]." This parallels Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him." The rocky soil represents those who initially receive the gospel with enthusiasm but lack depth. Their faith appears genuine at first but quickly withers under pressure or persecution. This phenomenon is particularly evident in what we often call "deconstruction" today—where someone who appeared genuinely converted falls away when their faith is tested. As Jesse notes, "I think what I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind...what's the length of time here? Is it possible that somebody could be in this place...which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end?" The parable reminds us that immediate joy at receiving the gospel is not necessarily evidence of saving faith, and it calls us to examine whether our own faith has sufficient depth to withstand trials. The Comfort of Realistic Expectations One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it calibrates our expectations about evangelism and gospel ministry. Jesus teaches that when the gospel is proclaimed, we should expect varied responses—including outright rejection—not because of any failure in the message or messenger, but because of the condition of human hearts. This provides tremendous comfort for believers engaged in evangelistic efforts who might otherwise be discouraged by apparent failure. Tony highlights this point: "This parable is not about the skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed...The point of the parable...is that it has to do with the soil itself." This understanding frees us from the pressure of thinking we must somehow perfect our evangelistic technique or presentation, while also removing the false guilt that can come when people reject the message we share. Furthermore, the parable encourages continued, generous sowing of the gospel seed. As Tony observes, "We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this seed everywhere that he can." This reminds us that our responsibility is faithful proclamation, while the results remain in God's sovereign hands. Memorable Quotes "The Parable of the Sower teaches really that the gospel call goes out to all... but only those who God regenerates, that good soil, are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit." - Jesse Schwamb "Just because our experience of Christianity and our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that it felt real and genuine and rooted for [those who later fell away]... There's a caution there for us." - Tony Arsenal "The exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that root. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on an ultimate level—that's God's election and his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, in our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:36] Introduction and Greetings Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 462 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of Good Soil. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Well, will you look at us? Look at us. It's finally and officially begun. And that is this conversation. [00:01:00] Kickoff to the Parable Series Jesse Schwamb: This episode is really the kickoff, well, the first parable that we're going through together, starting a long conversation that I think is gonna bear much fruit, if you will. Yes. Maybe 30, maybe 60, maybe a hundred times. Lord willing. It's gonna be great. And we're starting off with a doozy. Yes. Actually, maybe this is like the granddaddy of all the parables because we're gonna hear Jesus tell us something about the word of God and how it's received among different hearers. And this is so fantastic. It's the only place to begin because this is truly some eternally contemporary words. Yeah, it's, this is the parable that's continually verified under our own eyes. Wherever the word of God is preached or expounded and people are assembled to hear it, the sayings of our Lord in this parable are found to be true. It describes what goes on as a general rule in our congregations in the world. Anytime the word of God goes out, what a place to begin. So we're gonna get there. It's gonna be great, don't you worry, dear listener. [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: But of course, before we do that, it's our tradition, our word that's spoken is always something in affirmation with something or in denial against something. So I say to you, as I always do, Tony. What do you have for us on this episode? Uh, an affirmation or denial. Tony Arsenal: This is an affirmation. I'll try to keep it nice and short and tight. Uh, I am affirming everything that comes with the fall. It's the air's getting crisp. The season, the, the pumpkin. Yeah. Not, not the fall. With the, let's, let's, let's clarify. I'm affirming everything that comes with autumn. So, uh, the air's crisp, the pumpkin spice is flowing, the leaves are starting to come down. Although, as a New Englander, I feel like I might be a little disappointed this year they're saying that it might not be as vibrant because we've been under a bit of a drought. But, uh, I, I'm all for all of it. Sweaters, gimme like a nice cozy scarf to put on and like a, I don't know, like a stocking cap. Gimme some flannel. I'm just ready to rock and roll. I'm, I'm, I'm done with summer and I'm ready for fall and yeah, that's, that's the whole thing. That's the affirmation. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:03:09] Autumnal Delights and Debates Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. It's speaking of like eternally or seasonally contemporary. That is so good. Plus I would say like the fall or autumn. The best adjectives, doesn't it? Yes. Like including like the word ottum. Yes. Like, that's just a great word that we, we do not use enough of. So this season, loved ones dropping a tum in there because Yes. It's just such a good word. Tony Arsenal: And I, I know people hate on the pumpkin spice and uh, there was a rev, I think I've said this before, it's re revolutionized my understanding because I used to get so mad because I was like, this doesn't even taste like pumpkin. It's not pumpkin flavored items, it's pumpkin spiced. Flavored items. So it's the, the spice you would use in pumpkin pie is the spice that they're talking about. So people complain that you're just putting nutmeg in things. And to that, I say yes, that's the point. You just start adding nutmeg or pumpkin spice or cloves or all spice or whatever it might be. The point is we're using the same spices that you would use for making a pumpkin pie or some other sort of fall. Delicious fall. Pumpy squashy, goodness. Jesse Schwamb: You got that right. This is a classic case of don't hate the player. Hate the game. Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. And if you don't like it, if you don't like pumpkin spice, then just don't talk to me at all. I'm just kidding. Still get pumpkin spice. Like you can go to Starbucks and get the same, same coffee you always get. You don't have to get pumpkin spice, you don't have to drink pumpkin beer, you don't have to do any of that. The all the stuff is, all the normal stuff is still available. They don't tell you you can't have it. Nobody is opening your mouth and pouring it down your throat. So just calm down, order your normal drip coffee and move on with your life. Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of polarizing autumnal type things, I don't know if we've talked about probably, we have talked about this and I've just forgotten. Where do you land on the whole. Cotton, uh, sorry. Candy corn, not cotton candy, but candy corn. Tony Arsenal: I, I feel like we have talked about this and my perspectives may have changed over the years. I'm not a big fan of candy corn, but I will eat it until I vomit. If you put it in front, I think is the, is the consensus that if there's a bowl of it in front of me, the first thing that I will do is I will break off two little white tips of the ca uh, candy corn and stick them on my fangs and pretend to be vampire. Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. Tony Arsenal: And then I will eat the remainder of the pound and a half of candy that's in front of me until I throw up. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I know there's some difference between like candy, corn and like the little pumpkin confectionary ones. Yeah. Some people prefer those over others. And then this is not even to talk about the whole debate between when it comes to Reese's Peanut butter cups and Oh yeah. The pumpkin variety of those and No, all that stuff. Tony Arsenal: No. Mm. Jesse Schwamb: No. To those? Tony Arsenal: No, to those. The, the shaped, the shaped, uh, Reese's Peanut butter objects, I suppose they're not cups at that point. Uh, they use a different kind of peanut butter. I dunno if you know that, but they use a different peanut butter. So they, they actually do taste different than the actual didn't know that says peanut butter cups. Um, it's either a different kind of peanut butter or a different kind of chocolate. But one of the primary substances, uh, not in the Aristotelian sense, uh, one of the primary substances is different. And so it does actually taste different. It's not as good. And then the balance between the chocolate and the peanut butter is off. It's, it's not good. I'm a, I'm a peanut butter cup. Uh, I like to say aficionado, but I think probably snob would be a better. A better term for it. Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you'll, you like what you like by the way, only on this podcast, only, I think among long-term listeners, would it be necessary to clarify that you do not mean substance in there was six alien sense. Tony Arsenal: That's true. That's, that's definitely true. Well, Jesse, that is where we are. Enough about my, uh, fall. Uh, food preferences. What are you affirming and or denying? Tonight, [00:07:02] Musical Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna also come along with you on it with the affirmation, and maybe while you're drinking that PSL or you're searching for that candy, corn, you might like, want something to put into your ears that isn't us, that's a little bit more melodic. And so I'm affirming with the, this time and age in which it is all about curation. That's often a lovely thing. I use Spotify for all of my music consumption, and they just fed me like a really interesting playlist that I would never have thought of as a category, but I've really been enjoying, it's called Math Rock. And I saw, and I thought I'm, I'm usually kinda like dubious of the Spotify playlist because like they're kind of out there for me generally. But I thought to myself, well, this is an interesting port man too. Like, I like math. I like rock, and the description was complex rhythms and mesmerizing loops. So I thought, I like complex rhythms. I like loops that continue and mesmerize, so the check it out for yourself. If you're looking for something that's like, it's enough to be interesting while you're working on something, but not too interesting. So that distracts you. This is apparently the jam. So yeah, it's like just really interesting rock oriented, mostly instrumental music that is like. Really motivating, but again, not interesting enough to really distract you from the task at hand if that's not your thing. The other thing I would recommend, I know you'll join me in this, Tony, is that poor Bishop Hooper released a new album this week. It's called The Serpent and the Seed, and this one has a ton of tracks on it, like 18 or so, and it, it as well is a unique mix of both instrumental, really lovely, beautiful pieces and then some that carry more vocal and melodic stuff that's kind of their customary jam. Both of 'em are great. They both do have kind of an an autumnal vibe, if I'm honest. Now I'm thinking about it. It's really the perfect compliment to whatever it is that you're consuming that has that pumpkin spice in it. So math, rock, the serpent and the seed. There you go. Tony Arsenal: I'm trying to synthesize. I mean, math and rock are like two of Jesse's favorite things. So I'm trying to synthesize what it would be like to scream the quadratic equation at someone with some sort of like slightly off cadence, dissonant guitar rift underneath. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: I feel like there's a Me Without You album out there somewhere that that's exactly what it is. But Jesse Schwamb: yeah, probably there should Tony Arsenal: be at least. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there, there absolutely should be. And I'm with you. I'm willing to work on that album. That's a great idea. Like just, it's just an album of mathematical equations and like the deep mysteries of life, you know, listen, math is beautiful. Numbers are stories. There's, there's so much there. Yeah. You had me at Quadratic, so I, I think we've, we've given people a lot to enjoy in this fall season. It's true. Tony Arsenal: I, I. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save my entire life at this point. Uh, I took introduction to logic when I got to college 'cause I couldn't remember how to multiply fractions on the entrance exam. That's fair. So that's fair. So that was, that's my experience with math. But right Jesse Schwamb: now the internet wants to keep serving me videos about, you've seen like all these tests, like these entrance exams for like Harvard or like the Ivy Leagues, other Ivy Leagues, and it is all these random things, you know, like we're solving for like two variables, terminally, and there is some kinda like expon explanation to it. Um. Yeah, I guess that's what I've become and I watch 'em all. They honestly get me every time. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna watch that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna watch that. So it just happens. It's great. Tony Arsenal: I love it. Meanwhile, meanwhile, YouTube is desperately trying to get me to watch Season six and Cobra High. And it's very quickly gonna be succeeding. I think the next time Netflix has a, has a promotion where I can get a cheap month or something like that, I will definitely be binging Cobra Kai. So I feel like our YouTube algorithms are very different. Jesse Schwamb: Very different. Yeah. Very different. Certainly in, um, there is a commonality of, of the mysteries of the world and. [00:11:06] Introduction to the Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In some way, that's what we're talking about in this entire series. And yeah, if for some reason you didn't hear a conversation from two weeks ago where we really set the table, I think for what a parable is, why Jesus uses parables. As far as I remember, you correct if I'm wrong, it was the definitive conversation about why the parable is not just peace wise in Jesus' teaching, but really why it's the centerpiece. Yeah, we talked about that at great length. So now we're really ready to go. If you didn't hear that, I highly recommend you go back and hear that. 'cause there's so much. I realize as we, we looked at this parable of the sower or better like the parable of the soils, that we could do a whole series on just this bad boy. Such not just like wide interpretation, but wide application. So much for us to really chew on and then to really come back to and chew the could. So we're gonna have to be probably every time a little bit self-editing and brief. So if you're just yelling at your device, why aren't you talking about this thing? There's a great place for you to yell into or maybe just calmly and very politely suggest rather than the void, you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just an app for, it's kind of a conversational tool and platform, and if you're looking for it and I know that you are, don't, why would you even fool yourself? It's, you can find it by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. There's a whole channel, there's a bunch of channels there, a bunch of little conversations that we have compartmentalize. There's one just to talk about the episode. So as we go through this, my encouragement to everybody is track with us, get your scriptures out. Come along with us in the actual journey of processing this. Do spend some time processing it with us. And then when there is inevitably that thing, they're like, why didn't you talk about this? You know, a great place to converse with others and us about that would be in the Telegram Chat. So T Me Reform Brotherhood. So enough of that, let's get to it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's some, um, there's some logic that would say we should have just rather than doing an Introduction to Parables episode, we should have just done the parable, because this parable does really follow, it really does form like an introduction to all of Christ's parabolic teachings. And, you know, it's, no, it's no, um, mystery either in God's providence or just in Matthew as being a, a, you know, somewhat genius level composer of, of a work of literature in putting this parable first, because you're absolutely right at the top of the show that this parable really is. Almost like the hermeneutical key for all of the parables. Not just for in terms of like understanding the parables, it doesn't do that so much. But in understanding the purpose of the parables and more importantly, explicitly in the middle of this, Christ explains why he teaches in parables. So we covered that a lot last time, so we're not gonna, we're gonna skip over that middle section 'cause we don't need to rehash that. But this really is the granddaddy of all the parables. It it is, um. It is Christ's teaching on why he uses parables in action. It's the application of his own theology, of parables, if you want to call it that. Uh, in principle. And he is gracious enough that in this very first parable, he actually gives us the interpretation, right, which is, is not entirely unique, um, in, in the gospels, but it is not always the norm. There are a fair number of parables where Christ just drops the parable and leaves it there, um, for both his immediate listeners to figure out and then also for us to figure out. We're not given the inspired interpretation, but this one we are given the inspired interpretation. And Jesse, I had to laugh because, um. Just as you get really, really upset and worked, worked up about when people say Christ's body broken for you. Uh, it just drives me nuts when people call this the parable of the soils. 'cause Christ gives it a name, right? So, so we'll talk about that too. And I, I'm, I'm mostly playing, like, I'm not gonna jump through the screen at you or anything like that, but that's the, one of the other unique features of this parable is that it's given it's, it's given a name. Um, and that's part of the interpretation is that in most cases, parables have a primary figure or a primary point that's being made. And if you get that primary point wrong or that primary figure wrong, um, you tend to get the rest of the parable wrong. In this case, Christ graciously tells us who the parable is about or what the parable is about, and then later on when we get to the, the next parable or a couple parables down, um, he actually tells us more about the parable through some other teaching as well. [00:15:38] Reading and Analyzing the Parable Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, do you have that text in front of us? Do you wanna go ahead and read that first chunk? That's the parable itself. Jesse Schwamb: I do, let's do it by the way. Uh, maybe somebody should keep track. Here's a fun little game of how many times we say parable or parabolic. And of course, whenever I hear parabolic, I always think, of course there is like something of great hyperbole or allegory, but I often think of, uh, parabola, which to your point, Tony, I think you're just doing this for my sake now, and I love, this is an exponent oriented equation. Of course, it's a like a canonical section, which can only be creative mathematically by pronunciation again. So thank you for that. I thought you just did that for me, so Tony Arsenal: I have no idea what you just said. You might as well have been speaking like Hindu. Jesse Schwamb: It's fantastic. Well, let's, let's get to the actual, the best word, the word of life. And this is from Matthew chapter 13. Beginning just at the start of the chapter. That same day, Jesus went out of his, uh, house and sat beside the sea and, and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying. A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprung up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they were it away. Other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let him hear. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So on a surface level here, the, the parable is straightforward, right? We have a very straightforward picture, which is, is common for most of the parables, that it's not some sort of unusual, crazy out there situation that's being described. It's a common scenario from everyday life, uh, that doesn't tend to have sort of like. Mythological legendary kinds of characteristics. We have a simple farmer who is out sowing his seeds. Um, some of the commentaries we'll point out, and I don't, I dunno how accurate this is or isn't, but I, I saw it in, in a couple different commentaries. So I'm inclined to, to believe it that our model of farming, uh, in sort of a western world or, or maybe not western world, but in a more, I dunno, technologically advanced world, is to teal the ground till the ground first, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: And then to scatter seed. And it was much more common in the ancient world to actually scatter the seed kind of, uh, promiscuously and then till the ground. Um, I don't know the reasons for that. I'm not a horticulturist, but, um. The, the, one of the critiques that I've heard, and it's funny when people try to critique Jesus is 'cause they're always proven wrong, but one of the critiques I've heard is like, no farmer whatever would ever do this. Like, no, no sower would ever just throw seed on the ground, but this actually is the way they would've done farming. So he's, he's taking an everyday scenario that everyone would've been familiar with. Right. Nobody would've been like, oh yeah, that doesn't make any sense. They would've just said, oh yeah, of course you just throw the seed on the ground and then you come back around later and you do what you need to do. So it, it was really a scenario where some of the seed would've fallen on the path. And we're not talking about like a road next to the farm, but a lot of times the, the field had sort of, um. They're probably called like convenience trails is what they're called now. But people would travel through the, through the paths, and so there would be an area that's already walked, walked on that's a little bit easier to traverse. And eventually that area would turn into a pathway. So it was, it was kind of turned into sort of like hard clay turf that you couldn't get the seed into anyways. And then there would've been areas where, um, there was rocks under the surface. Most of our fields that our farm fields have been tilled and prepared and have been worked over, that the stones had been removed. But it wasn't always like that in the ancient world. And then you would've had areas where there was, uh, there was other vegetation, thorns, weeds, other kinds of plants that would've made, made it difficult for the crop to sprout and to bear fruit. So we have a very common scenario. There's nothing surprising about this. There's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just a simple farming metaphor that Christ employs here. Jesse Schwamb: And in some ways that's very consistent of course, because we have these very ordinary, normal things that God is using as a means of explanation for something that is very extraordinary, very supernatural. So we have the natural coming into play, not just as a representation, but to really demonstrates, illustrates and impound both in structure and form. This idea of what it means for the gospel to be communicated. And I'm with you, my understanding is in most ancient world. Those, those fields, we tend to think of them as fields and often the reference that way were like more like these narrow strips of land separated by these paths and you have this farmer casting the seed like very liberally. And not only that, but I think what's interesting right on the face. Is we see that there are basically four potential outcomes here and only one of those outcomes, 'cause we're already understanding this to mean the sowing of the sea, which is the word of life, which is the gospel message. Only one of those outcomes results in kingdom growth. There's a ratio of three to one. There's three times as many poor outcomes. In other words, there's all of these various ways in which we find that the seed is not rejected or does not result in the intended fruit. But there is just one path, one narrow kind of way in which it does result, and then it results in kind of various outcomes in terms of like the magnitude of the fruit or the plants that result from this planting. But as a result of that. I think what's really interesting to me right on the face is that we're seeing, like you said, there is a sower. He's casting the seed deliberately, he's coming on the path and he's just throwing it out. And in that narrow strip of land, there are all these different soils. And so right away we see if you're, if you're a farmer, you're understanding something about, it's not about the skill of the farmer in the casting of the seed. It's not even about the, the skill of the seed to grow. It's about the soil itself. And so again, we have this as three times as many potentially poor outcomes as there are for the one that results in this grand harvest. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing about this that might be, might have been, and, and again, some of the commentators are, are split on this, but might have been a sort of unexpected, um, element. And, and this is something we do see with, uh, with the parables, is there's usually some sort of, um. Unexpected or dramatic or turn of events kind of element, usually towards the end of a parable that would make, would, should be a subversion of expectations. Right? Right. And so the, in this instance, um, a yield of 30 times or, or 60 times or a hundred times, all of those yields would be crazy high yields. Um, you know, I, I, I think there are some plants, some of the commentators will make, make a point that there are some plants where like a 30. A 30 yield is normal. Um, but a 30 or a 60 or a hundred times yield of a crop is, is not the expectation. And so I think in, in a scenario like this, the reader or the listener is prepped by the fact that there are three, uh, negative outcomes and only one favorable outcome. To assume that the crop yield is not going to be great. Right? And then the reality is the crops that do sprout the crops that land on the good soil or the seed that lands on the good soil. Not only is it productive, it's so productive that it actually outpaces and kind of compensates for the lack of productivity or the lack of fruitfulness of the other three. So it's, it's three different, uh, it's four possible outcomes and then three levels of fruitfulness. And so this parable does sort of cause the listener or the hearer to think about, um, and start, you know, from the very outset, think about what does, what does it mean that the seed landed on the path and was stolen away by the birds? What does it mean that it sprouted quickly and uh, but didn't have roots and so it withered away in the sun? And what does it mean that, you know, it sprouted among thorns and so it couldn't bear fruit. And then I think the implied, um, the implied question that's being forced here because the parable does start out, you know, saying there was the sower, the sower, um. Sowed this seed out. He doesn't introduce this the same way he normally, he normally does or commonly does, right? Jesus often will start the peril ball by saying something like, the kingdom of God is like, right? Or you know this. This is like that. This, he just starts out saying like, a sower was out in the, in the field sowing seed. So the, the listener is not primed to know what the comparison is necessarily, but I think part of that is that now they're forced to ask what is the comparison? And I don't think it's much of a stretch. And again, this is why parables are so kind of paradoxical is it's not a difficult, when we get to the interpretation, it's not difficult to see the interpretation. Right, right. It's, it's easy to understand that the parable here, the metaphor is, is different reactions of, of some sort to. To a given thing, right? It's, it's different reactions to an investment of some sort. There's an investment of seed and in some instances it just doesn't take, in other instances, it takes and it doesn't sprout, and in other instances it sprouts, but it never fruits. So when we get to the interpretation, Jesus is gonna give us the clarity of what that investment is, and then who are, or what are the outcomes and what do they mean? In, in our, you know, in our thought process of what the kingdom of God is like. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so let's do it then. [00:25:44] Understanding the Soils Jesse Schwamb: 'cause what we've got here is we basically have, each soil is representing some type of here. So we've got four heres but only one true believer. So it's probably behooves us to go through all of them and really kind of chat through. And maybe what we can do is try to bring some of our own practical application to each of these. I've been really meditating and pondering that, trying to think if this is practical for us, then how can we understand how each of these are being manifest all around us? And of course the intention here is not to like name people that we think fall into each of these four little groups, but more so to think about how we might understand people who do fall into each of these groups. And that is to say that. Each one of these, well, the, the first three rather, that these ones in which they're, the soil is in some degree suboptimal. I, I don't know that it means that it's always that way, for instance. So we might think of people that fall into those categories, but the Lord may be moving or working in them to move them into that fourth category. And of course, he's done that with ourselves, so we know that that's exactly how he operates. Um, and it's, I think it's good for us to remember that. I think there's a lot that's scary about this first soil, this idea that. The seed just bounces. So we get no uptake whatsoever in this one. But the other ones, at least you get a little satisfaction that there's some kind of reception. There is a receipt of that word. And the reason why I find this one to be so troubling is because these who hear it in the first case, they don't understand and they don't esteem it. And Christ is very clear to say that the seed itself doesn't sit there long. It bounces. So there's a, there is a literal hardness. That's reflected in that clay soil or that path, which is down trotted. And it's hard because of perhaps this constant lack of belief, this constant and unrepentant hearts or lifestyle, but it would be enough if it just kinda bounced off and sat there. But the fact that it's snatched away that the birds come and take it away, that Satan himself has an active and powerful role in influencing all of those who are hearing this word. And I think that hardness of heart may not just be manifest in, say, like an unrepentant lifestyle or this kind of clench fist against God on the inside, which is of course true of the natural man. But more than that, that anything that would take us away from true belief. So that is even any kind of our religious system or belief, any kind of philosophy, any kind of other worldview I think is in mind here because we know the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And so. What he's doing in that sometimes happens first and foremost in the mind, manifested in the heart and then in our behaviors. So if he's stealing away this word by replacing it with something that is false, that is not true, that destroys, that pulls us away and moves us away, then this is very scary. He has a real power, which we talked about. I don't know, like maybe six or so episodes ago. It's worth listening to, I think. And so what I find here that is really traumatizing upfront is the involvement in particular of the sinful man under his own mean estate. That is, that it's clear that the natural man cannot conceive of the things of God without regeneration, and Jesus makes it abundantly clear. He's, he's basically saying what Paul says later on in First Corinthians when he writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, does not accept them. So again, there's no agreement. There's no, even an intellectual ascent does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one for who is understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ, so there is no mind of Christ, which is, it's a horrible way to live life. And so in that space we have both the natural man, his total depravity, unable to pull himself up by his theological bootstraps or philosophical bootstraps or his intellectual emotional bootstraps to even discern what the way in which the world really actually is. And then in in, I say in addition to that, we have the devil himself waging war and attacking by pulling away that seed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I have a little bit of a different take on this and I think this is what I am looking forward to in this series. Is there, there is gonna be. [00:30:01] Understanding the Parable of the Sower Tony Arsenal: Different, uh, different understandings that probably all fall and are all compatible, but all fall within a acceptable range of understanding. Here, you know, I, in, in reading some of the commentaries, Calvin makes the point that all four of these different types of seed represent people who in some sense are open to the gospel. They're, they're open to, he, he makes the point that this is not talking about the, the person who like refuses to hear the gospel at all, who like won't even come into the church. This is a person predominantly who is, is exposed to the word in some sense, probably in view as someone who's among the people of God who's in the, in the, in the physical body of the people of God who's among Christians or among those hearing the word. And for whatever reason, the, the, the seed doesn't, uh, it doesn't even get into the soil. Right, and he compares, Christ compares, um, this not to somebody who is hardhearted, but to someone who doesn't understand, right? That there's an intellectual element to this, right? You think of, um, you know, you think of somebody who hears the scripture and probably understands outwardly what it means, but doesn't ever comprehend it internally. They don't ever really, they don't ever really let it penetrate into their, into their hearts. Um, so it's been sewn into their hearts, but it doesn't actually take root in their hearts in any other sense. [00:31:38] The Role of the Soil in Receiving the Word Tony Arsenal: And this is what's a little bit different from, from the other ones that we're gonna see in all of the other cases. The seed takes root, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: It actually penetrates the ground and begins to grow. Um, it, this is a seed that never even makes it that far. And so it may not be someone who has like a, who necessarily has like a closed fist. I hate the gospel. I hate everything about God, but for some reason they're just not. And when we say for some reason I'm talking, obviously I'm talking la you know, horizontally. Um, we know that the reason that they don't have an open heart is 'cause the Holy Spirit is not open to their heart. But for whatever earthly temporal reason, the word just doesn't penetrate. It bounces off of them. It just doesn't get there. Not necessarily because they're outwardly hostile to it. They just maybe are not interested in it. And so this is where I think that. Along with the evil one, snatching it away. That's actually like one in the same thing. Is, is part of what I think this is getting at is that the, the, the only reason that the, um, that Satan can snatch away the word from their heart or what has been sewn into their heart is because their heart has not received it. And so it's that sort of dual function and, and maybe it's kind of like, almost like, uh, in Exodus, you know, God hardening the heart and then Pharaoh hardening the heart and those two things are happening, you know, by means of concurs that God is doing it in a divine sense. I almost feel like this is an instance where kind of like the, the census or, or with job where Satan is the one who is doing it, but it's ultimately attributed to God as well. It's the hardening of the heart, but it's also the hardness of heart. Um, all of those things are playing a dynamic, but ultimately the point here is that there are those who the word is preached to. [00:33:30] The Sower's Responsibility and the Soil's Condition Tony Arsenal: Um, you know, we will find out in, in a little bit later, like, the sower is Christ in, in these parables here. It's not, it's not generally the sowing of the word. It's Christ who is sowing the word. It's the son who is sowing, uh, the seed of the word. And we can think about that either during his own ministry. This certainly was, um, was true of his own ministry on Earth, that there were some who just did not receive the word and they just, it just bounced off of them. But then also as the son sows the seed through his people, down through the church age, through history, whether it's in the Lord's Day service or personal, witnessing, personal, you know, um, evangelism, it's still God who is sowing the seed. It's still the Lord who is the sower of the seed. But even in that context, there are still some who just don't receive it. So I think what you said earlier is really, is really spot on. This parable is not about. The skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed. Right. And I think sometimes people read this and they, they look at it as though it is actually the sewer's fault. What a dumb sower. He sowed it on the path. Of course it's not gonna take root. That's not the point of the parable at all. The point of the parable, and we learn it just right, this very first one, is that it has to do with the, the soil itself. Which is why, you know, I, I kind of joke about calling it the parable of the soils, and that's a fine way to refer to it. And most of these parables could have multiple different, you know, accurate titles as well. But the point of the parable, or the main point of the parable is that the soil itself is what determines the outcome. Again, you know, we, we don't need to get into all the theological details of how the soil becomes, what the soil is. This show has the word reformed in the title. You can figure out that we're gonna say, well, God is the one that prepares the soil. And that also just fits with the, with the a parable here, right? The good soil is only good because it's been tilled and prepared by the sower ahead of time, right? So I think that's, that's spot on. And, and you know, as I think about the people I know in my life, um, it's very easy to get discouraged when you try to so seed to, to follow through on the metaphor when you try to so seed and it feels like it bounces off. But we shouldn't be surprised at that. We shouldn't be surprised when someone is just not interested because Christ in his very first parable tells us there are people out there like that. That doesn't mean you don't sow the seed, it doesn't mean you don't continue to spread the seed the way that the sower does. And the reason for that is that some of it is going to take, take root, some of it is going to take root and bear fruit and you are not in charge and you don't control which one does which. We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this, so this seed everywhere that he can. [00:36:26] The Reality of Hardheartedness Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there is something there that I think is comfortable about this hardness of the soil, because I think sometimes we underestimate that the normative position of man is to be antagonistic toward God. That's not to say like we're talking about in their every action they take, they're going to refuse to hear the gospel or they're going to fight vehemently or out outwardly against it. But it's true that everywhere we find the scriptures, whether it's this other metaphor about God, again, doing this great surgery, of taking out this height of stone, which is of course hardheartedness or whether we go to like Romans three, where Paul says that there's no one who understands, there's no one who seeks God. So we understand that the default position is, one, nobody's seeking after God. Two, that God is too threatening to us. He threatens ourself. He threatens our ego, he threatens our own way. He threatens our contingency, all of which we try to fight against, like to our own dismay. And you know, basically. You know, it's willing, suspension of disbelief. But it's interesting and I think comforting here that what he's saying is, is exactly what you've just said, which is do not he, he'd almost say like loved ones. Do not be surprised when you find that people are just not that interested. They're just not into the gospel. Because your default position is to be a gospel abuser. To be a covenant breaker. And so because of that, there's just a natural hardness. And that hardness, I think he has to draw out. He has to say it's gonna bounce and Satan's gonna snatch it away because it would be, it's too easy to look at those who are just like vehemently opposed to the gospel that wanna debate. You wanna shut you down, wanna yell at you, wanna put signs in your face, wanna spit on you. That's too easy to be like, well, of course. Those people are not gonna receive it. But what about the quiet people who just don't care? Or, yeah. What about the people who are too caught up in their way of life or their simple behaviors or their patterns, or again, just what? What about those? What about the Mormons? When they come to your door and you can speak into your blue in the face about what Paul says, like the gospel plus anything is anathema, and they're just kinda like, yes. Yeah. Totally. That's fine. Totally down with that. And you're like, yeah, but you're doing, you're doing that very thing. This is great comfort to know that even those situations where you're not at war explicitly with somebody, that it's still comforting to know that this is going to happen. And also I think it's a great reminder that apart from God, apart from that changing of the soil, as you said, Tony, we would be those same people. That's in fact where we start. I, I don't say that. Like there's a progression here. We find in the, from moving from one to four. There is though something like you've said, where it's just interesting that Jesus shows us the very kind of shades of this. And I think, again, we gotta get out of our head like the, the temporality of this or like, well, what length of time are we talking about? Like when we get to the second one, which we should move on to. And there is some sprouting of the seed. Like how much time are we talking about? Like if it's two weeks, are they in camp two, if it's three weeks, are they moved out of that into some other, one of the other schools? Uh, I think it's just to show us that there are really, again, four hearers, one believer, and we can see clearly what the one believer looks like. It's a little bit more difficult to maybe sometimes discern what the other three look like, but it gives us hope and encouragement and basically just a sense of like, this is the way the world works. To know pres positionally, that when we go out, and like you said, I love this already, this is a major theme, is speak the gospel to all people. I mean, in this way, the gospel is for all people. Because Jesus' saying, do not cast the seed here. Go and look at that narrow path and find out, try to keep it off the, the hard ground. Do not let the devil snatch it up. It just says, throw and seed, throw and seed. And so we have to keep doing that stuff. [00:40:10] The Challenge of Shallow Roots Jesse Schwamb: So let's get to number two. What, what? Yeah. What say? Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Let me read it here. This is in verse, uh, 20 and 21. Here. It says, as for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the world, immediately he falls away. So thi this is the person who, um, who has some sort of outward conversion experience, right? It's a person who receives the word, he receives it with joy, um, and appears to sprout, right? This is seed that has taken hold and has, uh, you know, the, the, and we, we can see that it has taken hold. So it's not just some hidden seed that has roots and never breaks the surface. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a plant that has made its way into the soil. It has taken roots of some sort. Um, but the roots are shallow. The roots never actually get, uh, deep enough to, to be able to survive the sun, right. In the, the original parable, it's, it's baked by the sun. And, you know, this is, um, I think what what we're gonna see is maybe to sort of preface your question, and I think probably this is gonna be one of those two parter episodes, even though we planned it to be one parter episode. Um, I think what we're gonna see here is that you can't actually know whether someone is. The hard rocks is the rocks or the thorns. Right? Un until, until all is said and done. Right. Right. And that's part of what's difficult is you, you want to look at a parable like this, and this is where I think maybe this is a good sort of like caution against overinterpreting, the parables, right? Christ is not trying to give us a rubric to identify who is what. Jesse Schwamb: Right. He's Tony Arsenal: not trying to give us like a litmus test to say like, that person is the hard soil. That person is the rocks. That person is the thorns. And you know, this reminds me, I, I recall, I, I dunno how many years ago, it was a couple years ago when Kanye West was going through his like Jesus phase, right? And he, everyone was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that Kanye is a Christian and he's writing this album called Jesus. Jesus Saves. And, and I, I just remember saying at the time, like, guys, there's a parable of the soils here. Like we should be. Um, we should be joyful that it, it appears that this seed is taking root, but there are lots of different outcomes when the seed takes root. And it's funny because I, I don't, I don't remember what episode this was and please don't go look it up 'cause that's a waste of everyone's time. But I remember when that conversation happened and I don't know whether there was an affirmation or a denial or what context came up in, but I remember contrasting him to Justin Bieber. And it's ironic, right, because I actually just read on Twitter today. Let me see if I can find the post during the next time you're talking. Justin Bieber posted this really amazing, theologically astute, mature kind of statement on Twitter today. And I think at the time, if you had asked me, um, is Kanye more likely to be the good soil or Justin Bieber to be the good soil, I would've said Kanye. Right? Just because he's, he was older, he is a little bit more established in himself. Um. Justin Bieber was still very young. He was, he was sort of like all over the place personality wise. He seemed to be changing radically. And it just goes to show like, you can't tell. And, and I'm not even saying right now like, this is, this is where it gets difficult. I'm not even saying right now, Justin Bieber is good soil, although I did right. Retweet his quote and did hashtag good soil. Almost aspirationally, right? But we can take a look at someone's life in retrospect and say, this person is bearing fruit, or this person is not bearing fruit. And, and that's really where this particular, um, type of soil goes. It's not so much the fruit, it's the sprout. And I think when we look at a situation like Kanye and, and. There's hopefully still a lot of life left for Kanye, and that means there's still hope for a con, a genuine conversion and bearing fruit that keeps with repentance that does not appear to be what had happened at the time. Right? He's gone totally off the rails at this point. So we pray for that. We hope, we hope for better things for him. Um, but. At the time, Kanye was, is he, he's going by Y now. I don't even know what to call him anymore. But Kanye was a sprout that grew up with great joy quickly. And what we found through time is that it appears that he, when he was, although maybe he fits better into the second, this next category that we'll have to push off till next week, I think. But either way, like he appeared to have sprouted, he appeared to have taken root and ultimately did not actually bear fruit. And that's the defining feature of these first three ones. It's not so much about what happens with the seed. Does it get in the ground? Does it not get in the grow? Does it sprouts, does it not sprout? It's ultimately about the fruitfulness, right? The final, the final phase of the parable, the final, um, the final type of soil is the one that produces fruit. So we'll get to that in detail, but that's what we need to think about. And again, like I said, it's not as though crisis saying like, all right, here's this checklist of ways to determine whether someone's conversion is correct, is true or not. Because we can't know that until after the fact and well after the fact. We also can't know that it's valid until after the fact. What I think this parable, broadly speaking, gets at is that we have to look at every situation and realize that there are these different possible outcomes. And although I don't know that this is explicitly part of the parable, it also sort of points us to the fact that like, because it's not a foregone conclusion about what's gonna happen, maybe there's also something we can do about it. Right? Right. Maybe when we realize someone might be on the rocky soil. Whether we, we have some reason to believe that or we just want to get out in front of that possibility, maybe there's still room to actually get in there and, and move the seed to a different soil, I guess might be a better way to use the metaphor is to, to just take the seed somewhere else or to till the soil, to get the rocks out of the soil. Although this is not talking about like rocks in the soil. It's talking about a layer, probably a layer of bedrock. Like Yes, exactly. Just under the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Right? So Tony Arsenal: there is an immutability about these, these different categories of, of people, and again, this is where like overinterpreting, the parable can get to be problematic, but we, we see that there are these categories, we can't necessarily know which one of these categories a person is in when they have some sort of outward expression of faith where they've received. I think we can tell the difference between that first category. Someone who just has not received the, the gospel at all, has not received the word of God at all, right? Like it's just bounced off of him. It's made no impact. I think we can see that that's a relatively straightforward, um, situation for us to assess. And of course we can't see someone's heart, but it's, it's usually pretty outwardly, readily available to us that they just have not received the word in any means. Right. When we get to these second two categories, that's not the case. We're talking about two different categories of people who have received the word and it has begun to sprout. It has begun, it actually has sprouted, not just begun to sprout, but it's sprouted. Um, I just think we need to be really careful to sort of not place someone in an immutable category until after we've seen what's gonna happen. Yes. Really across their whole life. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:47:41] The Importance of Deep Roots in Faith Jesse Schwamb: I'm glad you brought that up because we really have to remember that in the last three instances, you cannot tell from the soil what the outcome will be. So it is a little bit, I'm with you, kind of a misnomer in the translation. This idea of like rocky soil. Yeah. If it were truly like rocky soil, the way that probably most of us in the Western think of it like soil mixed with gravel, right? They're probably, the sewer would be like, why would I throw it on there like that? That doesn't make any sense. Certainly again, if you're looking for that, that really fertile, well tilled ground, the one that looks promising, you wouldn't do that. So more than likely, I'm with you. We're talking about like a hired limestone layer that would've been like a few inches below, and as the sun would come down, my understanding is of course, like that limestone would heat up. It'd be like the perfect warm environment for like a seed to immediately like spring up with some hope. And that's exactly I think what Jesus is after here. It's this idea that the seed springs up immediately. People receive the message with joy. There's been no root or development to deeper moist soil though, because it doesn't exist. It gets blocked out. But inci incidentally, like the heat of that rock bed actually is the thing that causes it to germinate and produce at least a sprout really, really quickly. But as soon as like any kind of other heat comes upon it, because it cannot not grow deeper because it cannot set the roots, because it cannot get enough water from deep down, then it's going to be quick to die. I think we see this all the time. Maybe we even see this to some degree, not exclusively and in the same kind of magnitude in our own lives. But you know, we may listen to a sermon with pleasure while the impression produced in us is like only temporary, short-lived. You know, our hearts can be like that stony ground. Sometimes it may yield like a plentiful cop clap of warm feelings and like good resolutions and good vibes. How often do we hear that language? But all this time, there may be no deeply rooted work in our souls. And that first like cold blast of oppression or temptation may cause like all of that to go away. What I see interpret it from this particular group and, and this the one that follows it very much the same is like a conversion to religion. So here where this is where I firmly, like, I think we have a class, and this might trigger some people, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We have a class for this to me is deconstructionism. Yeah. And I think what I've, I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind is that. I'm not sure that we have to be so concerned in this, this metaphor or this great parable about like what's the length of time here? So for instance, is it possible that somebody could be in this place where there is this hard layer of rock, which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end. Yeah, where somebody has heard the gospel message has come into the life of the church and finds that this is generally a pleasant way to believe and to live and to express these ideals until maybe they have a strong voice somewhere or they're confronted with the fact that this, their message now is not very tolerant. And so as soon as there comes against them, this push that maybe what you're saying is too exclusive, that all of a sudden there really is a manifestation that there's no real root there. Yeah, there was no conversion. There was a conversion to religious principle and ideas and insomuch as those things didn't push too much against whatever objectives they had. Not even like going after what happens in the the third instance here with all the pleasures of life and all the temptations of the flesh, but just that there is some challenge. To what they believe and that it would be continually lived out in their actual lives, meaningful enough that it would impact behavior, change their mind, and continue to make them outspoken about the thing in which they're setting their roots into that if those things would cause the death of. That sprouts, then to me, that's where we find deconstruction isn't falling. And so in that case, again, it's comforting because it's not a matter of actual conversion as it were. It's not a matter of actual regeneration that hasn't actually occurred. There's plenty of reasons to come alongside and to give the gospel some kind of favor or to give it some kind of acquiescence because it's good on its own. There are lots of things that are good about it, but the rootedness in that is not merely in the outward manifestations of all the benefits of the gospel. It is getting Christ, as we've said. Yeah. And if we're not abiding in Christ, then we will necessarily die. In fact, Christ says elsewhere when he speaks to himself that even every bad branch that does not bear fruit, the father prunes and throws away. And so here we find that happening. It's, this is traumatic, it is dramatic, but this is where I think we see oftentimes Christians really get unnerved and sometimes it really, I think, rocks them when they see people who've had, like you said, Tony, like some professional faith. And I remember us talking about Kanye, and I remember us saying like, I think you and I were cautiously optimistic. We said like, this is fantastic. God does this very thing where he transforms people. And then we see in the long term, in the long run, the manifestation of that transformation, not in just merely as sinner's prayer or some expression of knowing something about the gospel intellectually, but the living it out so that the plant itself grows up in Christ to know of his great love, and then to share and abide in that love where it bears fruit. And so here I find this again, to be just very comforting because I think we see this a lot and our nerves, a lot of Christians, but I think Christ is giving an example here to say, do not be a unnerved by this. [00:53:10] Encouragement for Sowers and Believers Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe one last thought and then we, we can push pause until next week when we come back to this parable. Is. I think it's, there's two words in this, um, this little, these two verses here that really stick out to me. There's the, the word immediately, right? Yes. He immediately receives it with joy. That word is repeated later on when he immediately falls away. So there is a, um, there's a, a sense of suddenness to this, to this kind of, I'm using quotation marks if you're not watching the YouTube to this quotation or this, um, conversion experience, right? I think we all know people who have kind of the slow burn conversion experience, right? That's not to say that those people may not be, um, on hard soil or rocky soil. Right. But the, the person that we're talking about in that crisis talking about is the person who hears the word and has every appearance of an outward, radical, outward conversion of joy. And then joy is the second word that that shows up here. One of the things that drives me crazy, you know, maybe just to, to riff off the, the deconstruction, um, narrative a little bit is it drives me crazy when some sort of, um, high profile Christian falls away from the faith or deconstructs or falls, you know, into deep sin and then abandons the faith or has a tragedy happened in their life and whatever reason they abandon the faith. There's this tendency particularly among, I, I think sort of. I don't know if like, there still are young restless reform Christians out there, but I think it's still a valid descriptor. Kind of like the, I'm trying not to be pejorative, but sort of like the surface level tulip is what I call them, like the five point Calvinists who like heard an RC sprawl sermon one time and think that they are like the def, they're the definition of Calvinism. There's this tendency among that demographic that when somebody falls away from the faith to act as though everything about their experience of Christianity was somehow like an act like it was a, it was a, it was a play they were putting on, they were deceiving everybody. Right. That's that's not real. It's not the, it's not the way that it actually works and, and. I think the, um, the flip side and the caution for us in that is that just because our experience of Christianity and our, our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that like it felt real and genuine and rooted for Derek Webb or for name, name your key, you know, Joshua Harris, name your big profile deconstruction person of the day. Um, there's a caution there for us and I think that's the caution here in this, um, in this, I dunno, part of the parable is. Just as this is saying, the reason that the person falls away immediately is because there is no root in them yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away, right? The cause of this is because there is no route that ca

Seth Williams (00:00) I was able to buy a lot of land at dirt cheap prices. So there's no mortgages or anything on it. And when you buy anything for a small fraction of its actual market value, it's not hard to turn around and sell that thing and make money on it. Jason Hull (00:14) All right, I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of property management businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profit. simplify operations and build and replace entire teams, we are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. And my guest today I'm hanging out with is Seth Williams. Welcome, Seth. Seth Williams (01:28) Hey, Jason, good to be here. Thanks for having me. Jason Hull (01:31) Yeah, it's great to have you and of REtipster. so Seth, let's get into a little bit of your background. You've done a lot of different things connected to real estate. Give us the background on your journey and how you got it kind of got into entrepreneurism and what made you start all this crazy stuff. Seth Williams (01:48) Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, my journey kind of starts back in about 2005, 2006 when I was still in college. And like most people, I was trying to find houses I could buy that I could flip or rent that kind of thing. Just get into the real estate game. But I didn't really know anything about how to do it. I had no competitive advantage. I was looking on the MLS. That was the only place I knew I could look for to find deals. And there weren't any deals. It was horrible. I spent hundreds of hours and found nothing that made any financial sense. And I was just like, man, how do people do this? Like, how do people find good real estate deals if I can't find them? I was looking everywhere and there was nothing out there. And it was around, you know, after struggling with this for a couple of years, I discovered two things that kind of worked hand in hand. The first was the land business. So buying vacant land and Like most people, when I first heard that I was like, what? Picket land? Like, why would I do that? That makes no sense. It's just dirt. Like, where's the cash flow? Where's the income? The other thing that I discovered though was how to find deals off market through something called the delinquent tax list. And this is basically a list of property owners that every county has of properties that are currently back due on their property taxes. This is not the same thing. Jason Hull (02:52) Yeah. Seth Williams (03:11) as the tax sale list. So it's not the list of properties that's going to go up for auction soon. It's people who still own their property, but they're back doing taxes. If they don't pay them off soon, they're going to get their property taken from them. And these two things together, land and the delinquent tax list, I was able to find and contact people who had land with delinquent taxes on it. And because there were delinquent taxes, they're in a situation where it's like, Jason Hull (03:18) Yeah, they're just behind. Seth Williams (03:37) You got to pay off these taxes in like weeks or you're going to lose everything. So why are you in this situation? Is it because you don't care about the property? Like what is the issue? And in many cases, that was it. Maybe they just inherited it. Maybe they bought it 20 years ago, but for whatever reason, they didn't care about the thing. And I'm sitting there saying, Hey, I'll pay you a few hundred dollars, maybe a few thousand dollars, and I'll pay off your taxes and I'll make this problem go away. And because a lot of these people didn't want their property anyway, and I was kind of taking care of a nuisance in their life, I was able to buy a lot of land at dirt cheap prices. And I could also buy it free and clear. So there's no mortgages or anything on it. And when you buy anything for a small fraction of its actual market value, it's not hard to turn around and sell that thing and make money on it. So that was the business I got into. And it's been awesome. It's changed a lot over the years, but It's just been a really great way to, you know, without needing a whole lot of cash, finding properties, getting them for a very cheap price, and then making money without having to change anything on the property. Jason Hull (04:45) Yeah, got it. Okay, cool. Is that still the go-to strategy? Delinquent tax lists. Seth Williams (04:52) So, it's definitely still effective, but the drawback of the delinquent tax list is that they're kind of a pain to get, and then even when you do get them, they're kind of a mess to sort through. So, if you're willing to go through the nuisance of getting the list and sorting through it, there's a ton of value on that. But there's another way that's actually easier through a data service that I use called the LAN portal. And it's basically just a much more streamlined Jason Hull (05:04) Yeah. Yeah. Seth Williams (05:20) seamless, organized way to get lists of landowners. They don't necessarily have delinquent taxes, but I can find specifically the types of properties I want and then either send the mail or a cold column, that kind of thing. So both ways work. They both have pros and cons. The delinquent tax list is more of an annoying way to do it, but it's probably the more effective way. The land portal is a lot easier, but you get a little bit less motivation on that list because people don't have this delinquent tax problem. Jason Hull (05:48) Yeah, less of a mess to clean up, but probably a little quicker. so cool. you're going to unpack today the secrets of building wealth through land investing. This is like your number one specialty. And we'll chat a little bit about self storage. And I'm sure there's some property managers that are listening that might be like, haven't done that yet. Like I have not gotten into. That sort of investment and most of the property managers listening you if you're on a property management business your number one goal Should not be to just manage other people's properties. It should probably be to build up your own portfolio of stuff and and make some money That's probably a bigger better play and leveraging your company to attract deals and to attract Real estate so let's get into this. Where do we start? Seth Williams (06:37) Yeah, well, what I just described, there's kind of the high level view of how you find properties in the first place. And I mean, in terms of like people out there who are property managers who might invest in houses and that kind of thing, there's only one tax list or the land portal can work for those kinds of properties to the main difference is that you're going to find usually less competition when dealing with vacant land, because most people aren't thinking about land, thinking about houses. They think that's the way they have to do it. And that's fine if you want that. But the problem with houses, as you probably know, in property management, there's a lot more wrinkles. There's a lot more people problems. There's things falling apart that are broken and get stolen and destroyed. With land, there's none of that. It's a much simpler animal to deal with. But if your strategy is to find rentals or something like that, you could certainly scope out rental properties using the same method. You would just be targeting different types of property owners than I do. Jason Hull (07:10) Thank got it. So how does this connect to self storage? Seth Williams (07:34) Well, self storage is a totally different business than buying and selling vacant land, but there is some crossover. So back in 2021, I found a piece of land that was zoned residential. It was 6.7 acres and I bought it and I rezoned it to commercial. And then I got approval to build a self storage facility because I had always wanted to get into this business. A land business is great for generating big influxes of cash. It's like a cash generating machine. But self storage is a little bit different. At least the way that I do it, it's more of a cash flow play. you know, all in all, took me a couple million dollars to buy the land and build this facility. It took me basically a year to design it and build it. And it's comparatively speaking, more of a trickle of cash, cash flow, but it's permanent cash flow. There's also a lot of depreciation write offs. It's also very scalable. So it's easy to increase every single person's rent by $5 and the value effectively goes way up because of that. But like nobody moves out because it's just five bucks and most people don't care about a $5 increase per month. So it's a very different business. And for me, my long-term goal is to do more of that because the benefit of self-storage is that unlike land, it's not like a thing that you have to keep peddling for it to keep working. Land is a very active, you know, got to keep peddling or the cashflow is going to stop. Whereas self-storage is, well, you can buy one facility and the management is not terribly difficult for that, at least compared to like a rental property and the cashflow will come in for as long as you own the thing. So that was why I made that shift. Jason Hull (09:12) Nice. well, tell us a little bit about cell storage. How does that work? How can maybe property managers potentially get in? Seth Williams (09:21) Yeah, well, it's when I first got into it, what I tried to do is buy an existing facility from somebody within like an hour driving radius of where I lived. And I think that's probably the best first move is to do that if you can, because you don't have to deal with all of the work of construction and there's cash flow on day one. So like right when you buy the thing, money is already coming in. Whereas when you build a new one, it takes months for the thing to fill up. So that was what I tried to do at first, but problem was in my market, I couldn't find anybody who wanted to sell their property at anywhere near a reasonable price. People wanted like twice as much as what their facilities were worth. And people were paying it like it was just crazy. You couldn't find good deals. And when I saw that, was like, wow, I would normally never build something. But if people are being dumb and overpaying for self storage facilities, I could probably give this a go. And even if I screw it all up, I could still sell it and get out if I needed to. So that was why I decided to do that. And it's nice in that you get to design it and lay it out the way you want, but it's also a much longer runway required to put the cash in and then wait for it to fill up and start cash flow. Jason Hull (10:29) Yeah, this is our market to building these things out and then just selling them even though they're empty. Seth Williams (10:35) Yeah, that's what some people do. Selling them empty. I mean, that's not the ideal play. The real value of these things comes from paying tenants, that kind of thing. Maybe what most people would do is build them or maybe even buy an existing one that's half empty and then fill it up. Like do whatever you have to do to get tenants in there, whether it's changing the pricing or advertising more. And then once it's at least reasonably full, then you could cash out and do whatever you want. Buy another one or do something else. Jason Hull (10:39) Right. Got it. Okay. Got it. Cool. So vacant land, self storage, and then you're also like, you do a lot of content creation stuff in the real estate space. So tell us a little bit about that. Seth Williams (11:12) Sure. Yeah. So I started a website called REtipster back in 2012. And it was really kind of a place to store a lot of the lessons and knowledge that I had gained from my experience in land investing and in owning rental properties and everything I had done to that point. And I didn't really know what the plan was. I just knew, like, it's kind of fun for me to take my ideas and thoughts and things I've learned and distill them down into like bite sized chunks and help other people. figure out how to do the business from where they're at. And it turned out to be a lot of fun. And it didn't make money for like probably the first year that I was running it. But eventually I found ways to monetize it. Started a podcast, a YouTube channel. And a lot of what we talk about is land, but we also talk about self storage and occasionally rental properties, other things that are ancillary related to real estate investing. Jason Hull (12:07) Okay, well cool. Let me do a quick word from our sponsor and then we can get into a little bit more. So our sponsor for this episode is Vendoroo Many of you listening tell me that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of being a property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 %? That's exactly what Vendoroo has achieved. They've leveraged cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all of your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders. and troubleshooting to coordinating with vendors and reporting. This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee, learning your preferences and executing tasks flawlessly, never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees you up to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio, or even just taking a well-deserved break. Over half the room at last year's DoorGrowLive event conference signed up with Vendoroo right there. And then a year later, they're not just satisfied, they're raving about how vendor is transformed their business. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with vendor. Visit vendor.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need. All right, cool. So, Seth. Where should we go from here? We've been talking a little bit about vacant land, a little bit about self storage, talking a little bit about RE tipster. What do you think would be of the most benefit to property management business owners that are exploring some of this stuff? Seth Williams (13:42) Well, you know, maybe we could have a little conversation, you and me. So I've got a few questions I always go to when I'm talking to other real estate investors that are always kind of brings out some interesting perspectives. How long have you been in real estate, Jason? Jason Hull (13:55) Well, so I've been involved with coaching and consulting property management companies. So I'm more of a business coach for like since 2008. Seth Williams (14:04) Mm OK, gotcha. Well, interesting. Here's a question for you. What's one thing that you see new property managers focusing on that you think is actually a distraction from long term success? Jason Hull (14:09) so while. That's a good one. So the most common thing that I see that's a big distraction from long-term success is digital marketing. So a lot of property managers think in order to get more doors or get business, they need to do SEO. They need to do Google ads like pay per click, content marketing, social media marketing. The problem is the dirty secret marketers don't want to tell property managers because they like making money off of them. is that there's very little search volume of people looking on the internet for property management. So they can go on Google trends right now, put in property management backdated to 2004 when Google started tracking data and metrics to the present. And what you'll see is there's very little search volume. And if you compare it to any other term, like compared to AI is a good one lately, it has the same search volume of AI a decade ago. Whereas AI has this meteoric rise. Seth Williams (15:13) Mm, sure. Jason Hull (15:15) And compared to AI, property management is just a little line at the bottom. It like doesn't even register. And so there's plenty of business out there of people that don't want to manage their own property. There's no shortage in the U.S. There's no scarcity, but they're not looking for a property manager actively because they're either not aware that property managers are a viable option or exist, or they are aware, but most property managers suck. So they've written it off. Seth Williams (15:44) Yeah. So how do you find those people then if you don't know where they're looking or maybe you do know where they're looking. Jason Hull (15:44) and they're not really looking. We get them to do crazy things like pick up the phone and call non owner occupied property owners or like connect with real estate agents and create relationships to help the real estate agents get more deals from investors, stuff like that. So. Seth Williams (16:02) Yeah. I'll tell you, there's a ton of power in somebody who's willing to pick up the phone. I mean, so many people don't even want to think about that. But if you can do that, man, you're already way, way ahead of the crowd. Jason Hull (16:09) And there we go. Yeah, I mean, it's the one thing that we can teach clients that they can create business on demand at any time and not have to hope and pray that a market is able to give them something. yeah. Okay. Seth Williams (16:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, here's another question. What's something that you hear novice property managers or critics of property managers complain about that makes you roll your eyes? Jason Hull (16:35) Well, the first that comes to mind is a lot of novice property managers complain about the potential clients being cheap. yet they're cheap. And so that's kind of the blind spot that I think there's a lot of property managers that have. They're like, like, I had a client once and he was complaining that, about, you know, I'm tired of getting all these people wanting discounts or asking for us to lower our pricing, all these people that are so cheap about related to property management. And then I saw the same person post in a Facebook group for property managers saying, hey, does anybody have a discount for this? property management software or this then like, what is it? A maintenance software that exists because I don't want to pay full price. And so the irony wasn't lost on me. you know, usually the blind spot that we have is we, you know, kind of project that and create that in others. And so if you're cheap and you have a cheap mindset, then you're going to attract cheap clients. It's far more likely not only that, but you're going to be a lot more sensitive to it. It's going to impact you differently. Seth Williams (17:16) Hmm. Jason Hull (17:36) and people will pick up on that and they'll feel more anxious and be more price sensitive because you are. Seth Williams (17:40) Yeah. For those property managers who are willing to pick up the phone and call around and find their customers, what do they do to avoid those cheap clients? Is there some red flag they can look out for to say, you're not a good fit. We're going to go look here instead. Like, how do you find people that are willing to pay what they have to pay? Jason Hull (17:58) Well, I think I just had Dustin Heiner on as an interview. And yeah, I know him from some masterminds that we're in together. And Dustin's a really cool guy. Dustin had this, we did this great episode where he's like our client's ideal client, really. Because he's like, the first thing I do is I try to find a property manager before I even get a rental property. Seth Williams (18:03) Yeah, Essence Mm. Jason Hull (18:24) And I want to ask them where I should get a rental property and ask them for their advice. And I want a good property manager I can trust before I go find a property. But it's like, usually everyone does it backwards. They go get a realtor, they get a property. Then they go and try and see if there's a good property manager. And he wants to be hands off. He doesn't want to call his property manager. He doesn't want to be involved in it. He wants them to just take care of stuff. That's the ideal. So I think the challenge is when property managers are looking on the internet for clients. They're like getting them through SEO or pay per click. These are the worst investor clients. They view property management as a commodity. They think all property managers are the same and they're not right. Not all property measures the same and most property managers are not very good. So to find the exceptional ones, usually you're going to find the better clients for a property management business by doing stuff that is Seth Williams (19:11) Mm-hmm. Jason Hull (19:20) more towards the strategies that we would rely on, which are warmer leads, warmer connections, so that you're not getting the crappy scraps that fall off the word amount table that are now searching on the internet looking for the cheapest manager. And if you build your portfolio off of digital marketing and the cheapest and most price sensitive owners, then you're going to have the highest operational costs, more than my clients at least, and it's going to be expensive to run your business. So. Seth Williams (19:43) Yeah. Yeah. What do you think makes somebody a good property manager? Because I've had my share property managers that were terrible. had one that was pretty, pretty decent. And in my case, I thought what made them stand out was just really good communication. Like I was always in the loop. I was never questioning where things were at. Like I just, I just felt like I knew what was going on. I don't know if that's true for everybody, though, in your mind, like the ones that really stand out and just kill it in this business and have no problem. finding clients and keeping them happy. Like what is it they're doing that makes them so good? Jason Hull (20:16) Okay, this is a great question and I love that you shared your perspective. And tell me a little bit more, what do you think makes a good property manager? And then I'll share my thoughts, which might be a little different. You said good communication. Seth Williams (20:28) Yeah. mean, I just kind of mentioned that. Yeah. And I will say one thing, you know, one of my nightmare experiences with a bad property manager was and maybe this is just foolish on my part, but I relied on them to find some subcontractors to, you know, make some improvements and repairs on my property. And they just found horrible people that totally screwed up the property. And and they just kind of walked around all flustered, like, I can never find good people. And like. I don't care. Like if he can't do it, then don't don't do it. Yeah. Like tell me you can't don't just, you know, find somebody who's going to ruin my property. So that really annoyed me. ⁓ Jason Hull (20:59) to the next. Hmm. Yeah, that's yeah, that's hot. Okay, so I mean, according to studies and surveys, the number one reason that people leave a property management company is communication. And so I think a lot of property managers mistakenly think they need to over communicate. But I think what a lot of property managers do is they give their tenants and their owners a blank check to steal all their profits in some instances, because that's The number one source of financial leaks that I've seen in companies is interruptions. so they just, every phone call from every tenant, every owner, constant interruptions means they need way more team, way more staff. This is the business. What I've found is really effective property management companies aren't communicating all the time. Good communication is what the clients want if they don't trust the property manager. Seth Williams (21:41) Mm-hmm. Jason Hull (21:55) If they trust the property manager, they want zero communication. So that's very different. So the best property managers, what I think is they set really good boundaries. It's different. It's not like, hey, I'm going to talk to you all the time. So for example, my wife, Sarah, she managed 260 units part-time in 20 hours a week, basically by herself. She had one time, one part-time person boots on the ground, C-class properties, average rent below a grand, difficult tenants. and she had plenty of time and she had 60 to 90 % profit margin in her business. One of the most ridiculous like case studies I've ever seen. Like she was really successful, very profitable, but she basically had a conversation with her owners at the beginning said, hey, it's been great getting to know you, getting to know your property from here on out. You're not going to be hearing from me much. If I call you, if my name shows up on your phone, I'm asking for money because there's a problem. So you're probably not going to want to hear from me. And she was said as a joke, but she was setting boundaries and they would laugh. But that was how they trusted her. They trusted her because she set really strong boundaries. And so that reduced their anxiety and it lessened the amount of times they had to call. They weren't like, hey, Sarah, did we get that tenant yet? Who's looking at the property? Anyone look at it this week? Like what's going on with the maintenance? What happened with this? Are we getting this handled? Like they weren't anxious. They trusted her to manage and she was good at managing. So one, you got to be good at managing. Seth Williams (22:57) Mm Yeah. Jason Hull (23:17) Like you've got to have good vendors. You know, you've got to have good resources. Otherwise, why would they use you? Why don't they just do it themselves? As a good property manager, you should be way better at it than your clients. You're the professional. Which means you're not relying on them to tell you what to do. They should not be micromanaging the manager. They didn't want, they didn't hire you to micromanage you if you're a property management business owner, right? And so I think that there's good communication. Seth Williams (23:27) Yeah. Jason Hull (23:44) This is the superficial thing that everybody sees. The better thing is having really good service and really good boundaries is even better. Seth Williams (23:52) Yeah. Well, it seems like the boundaries thing works as long as you are good at your job, right? I mean, if you do let a place sit vacant or if you do find a subcontractor who screws the property all up, your trust is gone now and they are going to be harassing you. Jason Hull (23:58) Yeah. Yeah, you can't say, don't call me. I'll let you know when I get this taken care of, you know, because their anxiety is going to go through the roof. Right. Yes, exactly. You have to be on top of your stuff and you have to be good. but the conversely, you can't be good if you are over communicating with everybody. It's not it's not a scalable business. You just can't do it. And so if you are giving everybody all the attention all the time, Seth Williams (24:12) Yeah. Jason Hull (24:31) it's going to be very little attention and it means you're not going to be able to pay attention to and focus on the things that actually matter and do a good job. So setting boundaries is required in order to do have a really healthy business that does perform well. Especially if you're a business owner. Seth Williams (24:43) Yeah. Yeah. I guess like say if you're managing a property that's in the armpit of town and it's going to take a long time to find a tenant. I mean, maybe it's starts by just telling that property owner, hey, it's going to be a while. Like set the expectations. Like don't make them think it's going to happen fast when it's not. Is that what you do? Jason Hull (24:55) Good expectations. Absolutely. Yep, setting good expectations, setting good boundaries is absolutely critical. And I think that goes for any business. Any business that involves humans, right? If they can land, there's not a whole lot of people involved, but maybe in the deal, you need to set boundaries and expectations, right? In self storage, same thing. You have tenants, there are people involved. It's a little less than dealing with toilets, and termites, but. Seth Williams (25:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jason Hull (25:27) There's still humans that are involved and you have to be willing to set boundaries. know, there's self-storage places in LA that have a problem with homeless people trying to build homes inside of them. Right. Like that's probably outside of like what you wanted to be selling, you know, it's not probably legal for them to live there. Right. And so, yeah, setting boundaries, setting expectations. And they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And that's probably true in any business. Yeah. Seth Williams (25:51) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I'm wondering if you could wave a magic wand and fix anything about the real estate industry right now, what would that be? Anything come to mind? Jason Hull (26:03) Ooh, fixing the real estate. Seth's interviewing me now, everybody. and yeah, you are. You are good at this. so, well, why don't you go first? This is a great question. So Seth, what would you wave your magic wand and change about the real estate industry? Seth Williams (26:07) Yeah. I'm pretty good at this. Yeah, mean, mine would be mostly related to the niches that I'm in. So like land and self storage and on the self storage front. So the way that we manage our properties, the software is a huge component. mean, it's it's a very, very important. It's how we assign gate codes. It's how we get people's payments. It's how we communicate with them. Like it's a big deal. But a lot of the software out there is terrible. Like it is just garbage software. It looks like it was designed 20 years ago and it's It's like antiquated, but it's expensive. And the problem is, once you start using it, they kind of hold you hostage. So like, even though it's bad, you got to keep paying for it and rewarding this broken system. So it's just a it's just a pain. So if I could wave a wand, I would probably make it super easy to jump ship and switch softwares without them holding all of my customers information hostage. That's what I'd fix. Jason Hull (26:55) Yeah, you're in bed forever. Got it. You might be able to wave that one now with vibe coding and AI. It's probably possible. Get a nerd, they create a prompt for you. They could probably import the API or the data or the information from an existing company software, or at least get a CSV export and you could probably create your own software from scratch. It does exactly what you want. And kids are making software every day now. Somebody just made vibe coding software and some women made this app. Seth Williams (27:17) Cool. Jason Hull (27:41) called T or something like this. And it was like rating men for dating. So women could say, this guy's like not a great guy to date or something like this. and it was like at the top of the app store, like you can, you can create stuff now through AI. And the only problem with that app is they had a big security flaw that some guys probably didn't like what was on the app about them easily hacked it. And they doxxed all of the women's Seth Williams (27:51) interesting. No. Jason Hull (28:09) Credit or not credit cards, but their drivers licenses that they had submitted to verify their profiles and they made it all public Right. So if you're doing vibe coding people make sure you have somebody take a look at the security side of it All right. Yeah, so but that you know that could be that that could be a magic wand that could be waived My magic wand in line with what you said I would selfishly do something towards the property management industry is I would change the licensing requirements throughout the US, because the licensing requirements in each state to be a property manager have nothing to do usually with property management. Usually you have to have a real estate broker's license in order to manage rental properties, and that doesn't qualify them to manage rental properties at all. But it does create a big hurdle for them to be able to do it, and so it keeps probably some good actors out. Seth Williams (28:48) Yeah. ⁓ Jason Hull (29:03) and probably makes people feel overconfident to do something that they probably aren't prepared to do. And very few states have a separate property management license. So, yeah. Seth Williams (29:12) What is the connection there? Like, is it because you have to effectively list properties? Like, you're not selling it, but you have to list it publicly and then respond to people who are interested in that kind of thing. Jason Hull (29:19) Yeah, I think it's related to leasing and renting properties. The number one source of complaints at most board of realtors is related to leasing, not real estate. so, yeah, so there are some things in which, but there should be separate licensing, separate rules specific to property management and that maybe raise the bar for property management so that they come in, you know, understanding some things legally. Seth Williams (29:29) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jason Hull (29:46) that are related to that because there's a lot of real estate agents that are doing some stuff that's probably not legal when it comes to leases or having conversations or probably breaking laws, you know, and so that can be dangerous. we have one of our lead magnates that we have that we have clients build out is a 411 on leasing course. And it's basically a course property managers can download, put their branding on and go scare the shit out of real estate agents in handling leases. And so that these agents will refer business to them, which isn't hard to do because a lot of real estate agents are dabbling in leases and they should not be messing with it because it puts the real estate license at risk. So. Yeah, so that would be my magic wand. Well, that's to tell us a little bit about your podcast and some of the stuff that you're up to lately and how people can get a hold of you. Seth Williams (30:26) Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. That's cool. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, the REtipster podcast, it's really creative name, just REtipster podcast. I've been running it since 2018 and every week, just talk to people that I find really fascinating. Sometimes they're in land, sometimes self storage, sometimes neither. They just have a really cool thing going on and I like to grill them and ask them questions and really get to the bottom of like how they're doing what they're doing. So not surfacey questions, but like really getting into it. It's a ton of fun. So Yeah, feel free to check it out or anything at retipster.com. That's kind of the home base where you can find all the stuff I have out there. Jason Hull (31:18) Perfect. Very cool. Well, Seth, it's been fun. Appreciate you asking me some questions. That's always a surprise. And it's great having you here on the the DoorGrow show. If those of you listening, if you've been stuck or stagnant in your property management business, you want to take it to the next level, reach out to us at door grow dot com. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at door grow club dot com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time. Seth Williams (31:22) Yeah, likewise. Jason Hull (31:46) Remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

Kiera is joined by Dr. Hunter Bennett of Bonita Endodontics to dive into the ins and outs of dentistry partnerships, including hiring for passion, splitting tasks, going DSO, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I am like beyond excited for this podcast. This is all of my worlds combining into one in such a beautiful, magical way. The guests that I have on today actually is a throwback to my Midwestern days. So I met Dr. Hunter Bennett at Midwestern when he was a pre-dentist ⁓ in the sim clinic of good old Midwestern University in Arizona. ⁓ That school is better known as the Harvard of the West and Hunter was a dental student there.   And then he went on for endo residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in 2017. Following his residency, he returned to Arizona and practice in the mountain town of Prescott for two years. In 2019, he moved his family across the country all the way over to Florida. He is married to his beautiful wife, Lacey. They have five kids from 12 to seven months old, 12 years old to seven months old. Hunter is busy. And the reason I wanted to Hunter on is because yes, I love a good throwback to Midwestern. Like it is truly the highlight of highlights, but Hunter has gone through   being an associate, being an owner, selling to a DSO. And I wanted him to come on and give perspectives of all of those, because I think so many dentists are questioning, what's my path? What's in front of me? And Hunter is kind of like, I feel like you're the buffet of dentistry. So like, which one was actually best for you? And I'm really excited for that. So Hunter, welcome. I'm so proud of who you are. I'm like, mama bear heart over here. Just so proud of you. Welcome to the show today. How are you?   Hunter Bennett (01:25) this is so good. I'm so excited. I love the buffet of dentistry. That's like maybe the nicest name anybody's ever given me. I love it. It's so good.   The Dental A Team (01:31) Hey, you're welcome.   You're welcome. And how fun is this? As we were like prepping, told you, was like, Hunter, it's just like you and me, Sim back in Sim clinic. Like we're over there. Like you're prepping your like class ones, classes. I still remember you walking up with loops, gloves on. You knew I'd smack you with a ruler. Like not really smack guys. I was nice in that. But if those gloves did not come up at Sim, like take those off. Kiera, come on. Do I really have to? Yeah, gross. I'm training you. Do not have cross contamination. So welcome back to Sim. It's so good to see you again.   Hunter Bennett (01:59) I   haven't forgotten that I changed my gloves just literally all the time all the time so I appreciate it. It's how this has come full circle though truly I mean like and you haven't changed like you're still the same person just awesome and you're just always that bright personality that bright in the lab so and it's cool just to see how far you've come I'm really proud of you it's awesome.   The Dental A Team (02:19) Thank you, thank you. I think it's serendipitous because the whole reason I built the company was for students like yourself. I think the love, I feel like emotions coming on and I don't wanna cry. Like I genuinely just love the Midwestern students so much. I like just so proud of you guys. I watched your journeys. mean, shoot, how long has it been since we graduated? Like I left Midwestern in shoot, like 2015, 2016 realm.   Hunter Bennett (02:44) That's where   I was. I think you got hired like when we got there. I think that that was your first year was my first year in the sim. And then you, I think you left with us too. So yeah, we kind of went to dental. We basically went to dental school together essentially. So yeah, you're basically a classmate. Yeah. 100%.   The Dental A Team (02:47) I did.   I think I did.   We did and helping you guys learn x-rays. Honestly, Dr. Smith   and Dr. Morrow did tell me that I care if you ever want to come to dental school, we don't even care. I didn't like confess this on like to the world. They didn't say all these words, but it basically was like, hey, we don't care what your death scores are. Like we'll accept you no matter what. I'll be that student. But then I decided I just love helping dentists. I love helping you guys. I love being that teammate to you. Like I was able to be in sim. I love seeing you succeed. I love being that support.   Hunter Bennett (03:06) Yeah, they won't care. They won't care.   Just get in. ⁓   The Dental A Team (03:23) that person that's there. Like when you're having those bad practicals or you need to chat shop or whatever it is. it's just real fun. And again, like mama bear proud of where you are and what you've done. and I ran into each other at the Dennis Money Summit together. And that was a throwback. You, Jeremy Mahoney, was like Midwestern crew was back together and just a fun time.   Hunter Bennett (03:28) Yeah.   You don't even, you   don't realize how huge our little side conversations were to me. And I texted you a little bit about this, but like, we don't have to get into all of that, but like just those few conversations literally changed my life. And I'm not exaggerating. I'm not exaggerating. So we can talk about that later, but ⁓ yeah, I so appreciate you and some of your insights and watching your journey and your presentation was just so off the charts.   The Dental A Team (04:03) Yeah. ⁓   Hunter Bennett (04:10) Everything about it was so good. Your stage presence, the delivery, ⁓ the message. I still can remember a lot of the stuff you said. So, ⁓ yeah, good job. It's just, I'm not surprised you are where you are. And like I said, it's been fun to watch and I'm just grateful for the opportunity to connect again. So, but yeah, you literally was life-changing for me. I'm not exaggerating.   The Dental A Team (04:18) Thank you. Thank you.   Well, that makes me really happy. And thank you. And we'll say that that's the dessert of the dentistry buffet here. So we'll save that conversation for our dessert. ⁓ But I think what you just said is what Dental A Team's purpose is like my purpose is life is my passion dentistry is my platform. And so I feel so blessed and lucky that dentistry brought all of us together and but able to help you have your dream life to be able to give conversations about that.   Hunter Bennett (04:34) Okay.   Sure.   The Dental A Team (04:56) At the end of the day, if businesses aren't serving our lives, then what are we doing? And I'm really getting sticky on that. I'm really starting to hunker down on that harder because I think it's so easy to obsess about the profit, the numbers, like what route should I go? But at the end of the day, if it's not serving the bigger purpose of our life, of our family, of who we want to be, I really think it's a good time to question that and to ask to make sure the star we're headed towards is truly the North Star that we actually want to achieve.   Hunter Bennett (05:01) percent.   The Dental A Team (05:23) So I'm really grateful and yeah, I'm just excited for you to share with our audience of Hunter Bennett going through a associateship, residency, ownership, DSO, and then cherry on top of side conversation that we had. ⁓ and just know that all conversations, I think it's a good Testament. They're just, they're genuine. Like, I just want you guys to succeed in whatever path that looks like. And if I can be a guide in any of that rock on, that's what I'm here for. So just like I used to give you teeth.   help you learn to take your gloves off. I'm here to help you make life choices and better practice decisions too.   Hunter Bennett (05:58) Absolutely. You're crushing it. Well, so yeah, yeah. Pros and cons. So I think, you know, before diving into that decision, I think it's really important. Like the big part of my journey was I've just learned so much along the way that my first job was in a place where in Prescott, like that's where I wanted to like, was like, okay, this is, I'm going to be in this town until I die. Like I'm so happy here.   The Dental A Team (06:00) Okay, take it away. Walk me through. Walk me through the pros cons. Let's hear about it.   Hunter Bennett (06:24) And I was in an amazing practice. Like he was such a good practice. the guy that I replaced, ⁓ Nate Duesnup, he, my coming there sort of sparked his leaving because that he had been trying to get in that practice as an owner for quite a while. He'd been there seven years. so my coming sparked a lot of those conversations and they didn't really come to an agreement per se. so ⁓ Nate went and bought a practice in Florida. I, you know, I kind of found that out along the way and I showed up and then me and Nate became friends.   But I knew within probably the first two months I wasn't going to stay at this practice like long, long, long term. Um, it was very clear to me that there wasn't going to be a pathway to partnership. I was a business major. I always planned on owning practice. Um, but this was a really good opportunity. I'm really, really grateful for, um, just that, that chance that I had, but I knew immediately, like I wasn't, um, I wasn't seen as a partner, you know, which is very like, wasn't, I was just an associate and I felt like I just had way more to offer.   The Dental A Team (06:59) you   Hunter Bennett (07:22) I was, I was probably as much of a gung ho person as, as you can be coming out of residency as far as trying to be an owner. ⁓ but I was willing to like sort of sweat my way in if that's what it took just to be where I, where I wanted to live. ⁓ so long story short, like I learned pretty quickly that wasn't going to happen. So started just taking a bunch of CE, ⁓ traveling and then became good friends with Nate. Nate's like, Hey, just come check out Florida, you know? And, ⁓ so yeah, I went out there and, and, ⁓   The Dental A Team (07:35) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (07:52) If I've ever had a prayer answered as clearly as that, that was it. I mean, was, was clear as day. That's where my family was supposed to be. I actually served a mission for my church in Florida. I never planned to go back. ⁓ And that's ⁓ Tampa. So they actually, yeah, it was inside my mission, but I live in Naples and so didn't spend a ton of time in Naples, but yeah. So anyways. ⁓   The Dental A Team (08:03) No way. Same place?   Yeah?   I know Naples. I consulted a practice in Naples.   It's a beautiful place. Yeah, it's awesome.   Hunter Bennett (08:16) Yeah, yeah.   It's a, it's an awesome place and, ⁓ coming here was, it was definitely not like what I envisioned, but the practice was and the partnership was, and we experienced just like when I got here, he had bought the practice and the old owner was staying on like 50 % of the time and Nate was just grinding, you know, expanded the office. He had already done a lot of the footwork to get us to seven ops and.   We grew so fast, like we tried to find associates, like within my first six months, I didn't even bought in yet. We were already interviewing for associates and we couldn't find anybody that we just really wanted to send offers to. But yet we were just like in the chair all day. And I'm sure you hear this all the time. Like, I'm sure you get this all the time, Cary. It's like just grinding and grinding and then like you get done and then you're dealing with, you know, assistance and days off and they want to raise and, and just drama.   The Dental A Team (09:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (09:12) Taxes, know workers comp I mean you name it like all the things that come after work that are so stressful and Having a young family and and then just like like responsibilities outside of work like, know for us like there's a lot of stuff going on at church ⁓ At home. I was coaching my kids. So again, I think a lot of people that are listening can relate to this lifestyle and I think   The Dental A Team (09:14) Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (09:36) I as as I prepped for this conversation, we had a couple options. One option was to bring in a consultant, which we had thought about, and we already because we both came from the same practice in Arizona that had used a consultant, we felt like we sorta. We already knew how to be efficient. We already had a ton of systems in place. I think we struggled a little bit culturally. And I think frankly, this isn't a. You didn't put me up to this, but like had we hired someone like you like honestly, we may not have gone to DSO route. Frankly, like.   The Dental A Team (09:50) Yeah.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (10:05) Cause all the things we were struggling with, think could have been dealt with in a different way. But we saw the DSO route as, as an option, you know, um, and there's, mean, we went back and forth and like, that's all we would talk about. We'd get done and then we talked about it for like an hour and then we'd go in cycles and circles. And this is the pro, this is the con. And ultimately we landed on, you know, um, this is just a really good way to sort of bring some balance in our lives. And I'll be honest with you. I, I hated, hated.   The Dental A Team (10:10) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (10:35) hated like the first six months, the transition period for us was particularly hard. We have a very unique practice. But I'm in almost four years now, and I will say like, I feel like it all happened for a reason. And it's really allowed me a ton of flexibility in my life, and my lifestyle has improved a ton. So kind of what you described as sort of your purpose and letting people   The Dental A Team (10:40) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (11:03) kind of see like what is your North Star? Like what is your real purpose? ⁓ I don't think that would have been, I don't think I would have been able to discover that had I continued on the path that I was on, honestly. So a DSO I think is good. First of all, when you talk about like a DSO, it's like a swear word, right? Because there's so many types of DSOs and there are some bad players out there for sure. And so like deservedly so, there's a lot of companies that should have a bad name, but there's also some really good ones.   The Dental A Team (11:14) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (11:33) And that was one   thing, like we interviewed around and we met with a lot of different groups and talked to people from different groups. And I think there's a lot of good groups out there, but I'm actually quite happy with our group overall. And it's been four years and I will say like a lot of the turmoil I felt in that first six months was just the change, know, the change in trajectory, like giving up. I still run my practice. The thing is like, no one knows that I'm in a DSO. Like people know like my referring doctors now, but like they don't care.   The Dental A Team (11:44) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (11:59) Because nothing changes like nothing I run the way I want to run it and that's very unique to my group. I would say we hire we fire we make days off like we do pretty much anything we want we bought you know, we can get equipment so I Feel like my day-to-day really hasn't changed and I know that's not true for every DSO I think DSOs can be compared to like like restaurants for example. It's like ⁓ don't go out to eat because it's not healthy It's like well, I mean generally speaking probably true, but there are some healthy options out there   The Dental A Team (12:00) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Totally.   Right.   Hunter Bennett (12:29) And   ⁓ that's kind of how I see DSOs is like I do think there are some healthy options out there and it totally depends on personality. So. ⁓ I will say like the pros for me so far and you can ask me like maybe some more specifics, but yeah, yeah, so I'm so. Yeah, like that's that's just the general story, but I will say like you know this far in like that's kind of the general gist of my experience and if I could do it all over again, I I probably would. ⁓   The Dental A Team (12:37) Mm-hmm.   I'm going to ask some questions. I'm like plunging behind. I've got a decent amount. I'm excited for it.   Hunter Bennett (13:00) I say though, like I am very curious to see what it would have been like to have hired, you know, like to bring you in and just say like, all right, come in here. And a couple of my assistants were like, don't bring the consultant, don't hire a consultant. And I don't think that really influenced me as much as I felt like, honestly, I just felt like I didn't need one, but looking back now, I think that definitely would have been a really good option. So I think you either go the DSO route or you bring someone in. But again, I talked to dentists, I work with a bunch of different dentists. I talked to a bunch of guys all the time, every day.   The Dental A Team (13:08) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (13:30) And they haven't had such good experiences with consultants either. So I'm sure you'd get the same thing, you know, but.   The Dental A Team (13:33) I do. That's   one of my first questions when I walk into an office. Tell me what you think about consultants and it's a rip. And I want them to, because why not? Like let's get it on the table. And I think, I think the difference with us consulting versus others, because consultants are going to be there's good and bad, just like there are of DSOs, just like there are of marketing, which is like there is a people. I think the difference is one,   Hunter Bennett (13:39) Yeah, yeah, totally.   The Dental A Team (13:58) I come a team member first. So like my job is to help dentists and I'm a business owner and a multimillion dollar business owner second. And so when you combine those two perspectives together, I very much understand the business side of it. And it's not just theories and ideas. It's true, like hard knocks, ⁓ hundreds and thousands of offices and team members of what are the processes. But second, like I don't hire MBA students. I don't hire people that are just like,   you know, they, want to be a consultant. hire people that have a passion for it. They've been in the front and the back office. So I think teams, that's why I actually named it Dental A Team. want it to be dentists and teams because so many consulting companies either focus on the dentist or they focus on the team, but not both. I'm like, but you have to get both on the same page. And teams are freaked out by consultants. Consultants come in and fire. Consultants are stressful. Consultants are rigid. They make you do it this way. And my thoughts are no one, it's you with your vision.   Hunter Bennett (14:42) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (14:55) it's what do the numbers tell us and the profitability and three based on those two pieces, what are the systems that we need to improve based on like the problems in the practice too. And when you go about it that way and my job is to make life easier, not harder. I think when you go about it that way, teams are not as scared. And that's also why we built the podcast. So teams could hear us. They could learn like, what do we talk about? Because I think a lot of it's just the unknown. And so I, that's going to be like my two cents for a consultant, but I'm going to like back up for you Hunter on, have questions for you.   Hunter Bennett (15:24) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (15:25) I have question marks all the way around. One, think actually excellent point on the associateship and doctors listening, Hunter, you said you were a very equipped, very eager associate. You have a degree in business. I mean, you've got like the little gold star around you, a prime, ⁓ an associate prime for partnership that I think so many doctors are afraid and they don't know how to build partners in that they actually miss a lot of golden opportunities. And so   I like that was one of the nuggets I picked up from your story of like, I don't know who the doctor was and I'm not here to judge. They have their own story, their own reasons. But I think when doctors have great associates like yourself, you're destined to like, I know you're going to own a practice. When you come in with that type of acumen behind you, you're going to own a business. So either I can be smart and snag you and partner in with you and have you help me build and create it. Or I can let you go and you're either going to become my competitor or you're going to go somewhere else. And so there's no right or wrong.   but I think so many owner doctors, do see this. They're afraid bringing on a partner, you do like take home less pay. Like with air quotes, you get paid upfront, but you're like day in, day out is less. ⁓ But I really wanted to highlight that because I think like, well, it all worked out perfectly for you, Hunter. I think doctors listening to this could definitely learn from that. And it's okay if you don't want a partner. Some people are adamant of no partners. They don't want to give any of that up. They don't want to give away the control. That's okay. Don't hire someone like Hunter.   Or be okay that he's gonna probably leave you in about one to two years. And like any thoughts around that? They do.   Hunter Bennett (16:50) Yeah. I think everybody goes through that. Yeah. No, a   hundred. Like I have a ton of thoughts about that because it's, it's, I do, because I mean, I hear it all the time, like every week where Dennis is like, well, I'm just going to plug in an associate and then I'll just take some time off. it's like, that's not really how it works because you have to decide in like Jeremy Mooney, for example, like I talked to Jeremy all the time. He's one of my best friends and you sort of, I know it, I feel like every time I talk to him,   The Dental A Team (16:57) Talents.   Hunter Bennett (17:19) And he wouldn't mind me saying this, like just inevitably what happens is when someone doesn't buy in all the way or they just treat it like a job, like they come and go, you know, and that's, that's the price you pay. And so as a specialist, like we have to maintain relationships and referring offices. if associates are coming and going, that is such a, it's it's a rough look. And then for a dental practice, it's the same thing where patients, know, patients come to me they're like, I went to this practice and I saw the third doctor in my third visit, you know, and it's, they don't like that turnover.   And so what you make in money you pay for in stress and headache, I think on an associate, like when you're making money on your associate, not to mention all the headaches that come with training, reviews, stuff like that. ⁓ And so, yeah, I think ⁓ I totally see both sides of it. And the doctor that Nate and I both work for, he's got like four associates now and he's crushing it. So like, good for him. know, like that's, he's doing really, really well.   The Dental A Team (18:14) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (18:16) ⁓ Me and eight are like best friends and we have this relationship that like will be friends for life like he's like he doesn't have any brothers like I'm like his brother he's like my third brother, you know, it's just We just have this amazing relationship that I wouldn't trade for anything, you know, and not all partnerships are that way I think we've been super super blessed and super lucky that way but when both partners are both givers and you both want to just work hard and you have their back no matter what like you can find that man like   The Dental A Team (18:21) Mm-hmm.   Agreed.   Hunter Bennett (18:44) whatever money you give up by being a partner, you'll get back in like that, just sitting down at the end of the day and having someone to talk to that you're equal in business plan with, to take risks with, to, you know, even just to have like that comfort of talking to someone, you know, like you you get done with a tough day and just having that person there is, is priceless. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. So I wouldn't give up my partnership with Nate for anything, you know, and, and,   The Dental A Team (19:00) Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (19:09) Yeah, and and I think that's quite unique like in our DSO like no one really knows like we have like 400 partners I think now and Like when they think of Nate they think a Hunter or when they think a Hunter they think about Nate like we're just known like you usually don't see one without the other so to the doctors out there that own if you can find someone like that or someone even remotely close like man and someone that's gonna stay long-term like you eliminate so much stress and so many headaches by being open to having a partner and then if you have associates that might come and go   The Dental A Team (19:20) Awesome.   Hunter Bennett (19:38) And you want, you have the space and the availability and you want to do that, that's an option. But if you feel like you're drowning and you can find someone that's a really good business partner, I definitely see the value. Cause Nate and I, spent the better part of two years looking for associates to work for us. And again, it's that whole thing of like, well, man, I don't think they're going to be, I don't think they're going to have the personality that we need. But you know, then you hire, then you interview the really good ones. You're like, well, they're going to want to be a partner so we can't hire them. So you're just always playing that game of like.   There is no perfect answer. You know, you don't, you don't have like a unicorn associate that's just, and maybe there are a few where they just are just a total 10 out of 10, but then they just don't want to own. just want to show up. So it's pretty rare. They will. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:17) Totally. And some will. It is.   But okay, that actually led me to my next point I wanted to dig into because partnerships, some are magical like you guys have and others sink ships. So I want to hear how did you get into the partnership? Like what, what does that look like? How much did you both bring? Like as much as you want to get into the nitty gritty with me, because I think partnerships are so challenging to do well and to hear that you and Nate have a great thing. So I'm almost like, okay,   Hunter Bennett (20:24) Yeah.   Yeah, totally.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:46) There were some tips about associateships and bring us and I agree like, welcome down, like have these people with you. They're going to grow your business. I could not do a Dental A Team does without incredible consultants. And while none of them are partners per se, a lot of them, I've given them opportunities to do different pieces, tip from the get-go. We talked about, offered her to be a partner. She's like, heck no, I want nothing to do with that, but give me my time and give me my life with my child and girl I'm with you forever. So get read, there are different things, but I mean,   Did I give up money when I first brought in all these other consultants to help out? The answer is yes. But I look at it now and it actually like makes me so giddy to see there are so many practices we're impacting that me as a solo person could not serve at that level. So that's, think the beauty of like, yes, there's a dip, but there's also growth in and serving that you can do at a higher level. So with that said on associates, now we're moving into partnerships. Walk me through Hunter. I want to know the like ins, outs, good, bad, like partnerships. I'm sure you guys have had.   some knockout drag outs. I'm sure you guys have had highs and lows in partnerships. I'm sure you like, but I'm curious, like, how did you guys structure it to make it great for both of you? And then I'm to go into DSO. So I want to know partnership though, because like, it's my buffet. I'm choosing an associate now buying and being partners in DSO.   Hunter Bennett (21:57) Yeah.   Yeah,   yeah, for sure. think the key was ⁓ for me and Nate, like we're both givers. And so, you know, we never have fought over money. you know, there's just never, we've just been lucky to not have that. We're very similar because we kind of cut our teeth in the same practice. We had the same philosophy too. Like just we're very, very efficient. both work super, super hard.   The Dental A Team (22:25) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (22:26) So we're both hard drivers that way. We're both very perfectionistic Like we we both do the same type of root canals like we we kind of have the same treatment philosophy, you know, ⁓ And granted he's seven years older than me So like Nate you I have to give him a ton of credit because he's just been super helpful clinically and like I felt like after years like I was actually I wasn't at my prime prime for sure But like I was I was I was cooking I was doing pretty good and he helped bring me up to where I am   The Dental A Team (22:50) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (22:53) Now, you know, I've been here like seven years now, but like that first year, like he still just helped me, you know, deal with some of the tougher cases. Naples is just a place that tough cases. But the thing that, thing, yeah, it's old people, retired, calcified, whatever stuff from Europe. That's like totally, totally crazy. But ⁓ he was just so patient. And so just, man, he was just so happy to have me here. Cause he was like, he was burning out. Like he was so tired. And so he was just grateful I was here. He always told me that.   The Dental A Team (23:01) Right? is. It's a good place for business.   Hunter Bennett (23:20) The way we structured it. I worked for him for a year and I was supposed to buy in after the first year, but COVID had hit. so banks weren't like, they were like, hold on, chill out. Like it was literally like March I was supposed to buy in. And so like, you know, we were like, me and him were like alternating days and like, you know, like sharing N95s cause that's all we had. And I mean, that's a whole nother thing. So that delayed the buy-in like six months. And during that time, like, yeah. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (23:27) ⁓ huh.   Yeah.   And hold on, before you go to that, when you moved out there, was it part of   your contract and agreement that you were going to buy in in a year? Was it 50-50? Were those things like in place? Were those like in your contract? Okay.   Hunter Bennett (23:51) Yeah, one year. Yeah, yeah, it was all agreed to.   And you know, I actually don't know if it was in, so the thing was like, when I was in Prescott, I went to the same church that Nate had gone to, like I went to the same congregation. So everybody that knew him just absolutely loved him. Like he was like the cream of the crop. Everybody was just like, you know, like I felt like I was partnering with like, you know, just this.   The Dental A Team (24:10) Mm.   Hunter Bennett (24:18) Completely amazing person which he is so I had no doubts. Yeah, it's like the Michael Jordan like not even I don't even know like analogy would be like Muhammad Gandhi like he was like just such this Just a good dude, you know and so I didn't have a lot of reservations as far as our agreements go and then just again, maybe not the smartest thing but like I don't know it may have been in the writing but I don't really remember and I wasn't that worried about it because I guess naively I trusted him and just felt like it would work out but this was all verbally agreed to   The Dental A Team (24:18) Michael Jordan of dentists.   Wow.   Because I do know for some people   like some people have it's the verbal agreement. I'm sure   Hunter Bennett (24:47) I would, mean, he would have been willing to, he would have been willing   to, and maybe it was, like it might have been in our first contract. I had David Cohen write it up, I had to go back and look, but he did our partnership agreement too. He's awesome for anybody that needs an attorney, but yeah, I've sent him a ton of people. But that was the thing, like we had all that agreed to, then the other conversation that I know a lot of people don't have, and a lot of people hold resentment about is how you're gonna   The Dental A Team (25:00) We do love David Cohen. We refer to him quite a lot.   Hunter Bennett (25:17) split profits. And so we decided early on, it's like, eat what you kill. Like if you do, so the way I did it, I, we, sort of calculated a rough guesstimation of what our overhead was. And then we gave ourselves like, we would do, okay, you get this percentage. We each get this percentage of our production. And then let's say it was like 45, 55, then we split the profits that same way. Whatever's leftover, we're going to split by that same amount. And frankly, like, I don't think we were ever correct.   The Dental A Team (25:18) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   by the amount that you produced? Is that correct? So,   okay.   Hunter Bennett (25:45) collected. we're   fever like our collection is same as product like we're yeah, so it's the same number but Yeah   The Dental A Team (25:50) Right. So sorry, let me back this up. So you guys go produce   and let's just use numbers. Usually in GP, it's 30 % of what you produce. Usually in specialty, you're like 40, 45 % of what you produce. Like let's just use some like loose numbers, hypothetical.   Hunter Bennett (26:03) Sure.   The Dental A Team (26:04) Nate, you produce, you're welcome. We've got this. So let's just say you produce 100 grand in a month. Nate produces 100 grand in a month. Let's say you guys are both taking 30 % your specialist. So giggle at me because I know you're not 30%. You both would be taking 30 grand of that leaving. We've got 70 from each of you, but we have overhead in that as well. So we've got to take our overhead out of there. So we've got 70, 70 hypothetical we're going to take. Let's just do let's leave at the end there's 60,000.   Hunter Bennett (26:21) Yep. Yep.   Yep. Yep.   Say 50.   The Dental A Team (26:33) 60,000 of profit   Hunter Bennett (26:34) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (26:34) at the end of it after you guys have produced 200,000, collected 200,000, you both have been paid your 30,000 each. Of that 60,000, how was that split? Was that a 50-50 split or was it based on like, let's say you produced 100 grand, but Nate produced 200 grand. Did the 60,000 at the end get split based on production amounts or was that like, how was the profit split?   Hunter Bennett (26:54) Correct.   Yeah, so we would just split the profit exactly like you described in the latter example where it's based on what you produced that month or collected that month, then we would split the profits that month. And I just had a spreadsheet, I did all the math. And so we would just work it out between the two of us. And we never had an issue. I would just plug it and just plug and chug and it was never an issue. And truly like...   The Dental A Team (27:09) Nice.   Hunter Bennett (27:19) We were never more than like 52 48, you know, that might've been like, ⁓ you know, I don't remember a month ever being off by more than 2 % or 4%. So it really wasn't a big battle. And one thing too, that I told Nate going into this, and this was for me, I had to just like, was president of like my business school, like my junior year president of the whole business school, like the vice president of all business school, my senior year, like   The Dental A Team (27:23) Thank you.   interesting.   Hunter Bennett (27:45) I was used to being leadership positions. I was used to sort of being in charge. But I knew coming here, he was there first. And I told him, was like, I know you're going to be the alpha. All the referrals know you. I'm just going to have to take that backseat role. And I think me just acknowledging that and accepting that was so important because I had no ego. I didn't have to prove that there was no competition between me and Nate. We were 100 % on the same team.   The Dental A Team (27:56) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (28:12) ⁓ Again, and maybe that's unique to a specialty practice because you're kind of working together maybe more than you would in a GP office. I don't know. ⁓ Or maybe you're competing for patients a little more. I'm not sure. I've never worked in a GP office. But the dynamics for us is like, we're just, there's like all the referrals. It doesn't matter which doctor you want. Like you're getting your next available doctor unless there's a few exceptions. So we were very good about having no egos. And that was really important to our partnership too. But   financially it was quite easy for us and convenient just because our numbers were pretty similar. Or if he took a couple weeks off, then obviously he'll still get his collections from that month, but then I would get a little bit bigger chunk of the profit. But then when I took my time off the next month, they would just work itself out. so, ⁓ and he was always, like I said, he was always at the end of the year, Nate always produces just a little more than me. And I was just okay with it. You know, I was like, whatever, hang on.   The Dental A Team (28:46) Mm-hmm.   Sure.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (29:06) And this I think is the desert that we can talk about later because how do we   The Dental A Team (29:07) Fascinating. Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (29:10) measure success? How do we measure fulfillment? And when we tie it to profits and numbers and income, it's just not super healthy. And I've had to learn that. Like that's probably been one of my biggest paradigm shifts over the last year, year and a half and sparked by your presentation and the conversations that we had. So.   The Dental A Team (29:27) Well, that's fascinating to me and thank you. That's a huge compliment. ⁓ I'm fascinated by that partnership split and the fact that you both were eat what you kill. I actually love that because then you got two very motivated partners. Also, you don't accidentally get one partner who's not pulling their weight. I know a lot of times ⁓ and I think the difference that I sometimes see in GP versus specialty is sometimes I have a super producer in GP.   So one who's doing hybrid and implants and all these different cases. And then I've got another doctor who's doing bread and butter. Well, obviously the super producer is going to produce more, but you need the bread and butter dentist to be taking care of all those profie patients and all the day in day out. So you can super produce. So those ones, often will see that it's more going to be a 50 50 split, but I do oftentimes see the super producer gets a little annoyed because they're like, if they're not both givers.   ⁓ I've seen this wax hard on partnerships just in the fact of you look at the numbers and what are you putting up on the board? But I think those partners really have to look at this. It's the ultimate whole. And if the ultimate whole of the business is doing well, both parties are winning. And they have to just see that they bring different strengths to the table, just like in a marriage. And we're not looking at dollars on the board. We're looking at collective as a practice. But that is one where I do watch. And so I do think in specialty, that might be something I had not thought of.   but I love to hear how you guys broke it down, how you picked it apart. And also the fact that there was no ego on taking a patient. Cause I do sometimes see that in partnerships where, if I'm going to get what I kill, I want more of these patients. I want to take them on because that's going to impact my production. But at the end of the day, you guys are still doing well on the profit side. So fascinating to me to hear how it was set up, how you guys got into it, how the buy-in was, ⁓ and then moving forward. And I'm guessing Hunter, I don't know Nate.   Hunter Bennett (31:01) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (31:18) But I'm excited. I mean, I have a quote over here by Gandhi. So when you said that I was like, well, perfect. ⁓ But my hunch is typically in a partnership, I see someone who's like yourself, who's really big into business, like they know the numbers, they have the business acumen. And usually the other partner tends to be more of the people side or this is like, you usually have a separation. So I again, I don't know Nate, but my guess would be not to say that you're not great with team members to   but I'm guessing you're very business savvy, you're very system savvy, and he's gonna be more people savvy and relationship savvy. Again, I don't know, maybe both of you had that, but I'm curious, did you see that dynamic in your partnership that maybe blended you guys really well coming together?   Hunter Bennett (31:54) Yeah, no, that's a really good point and we do compliment it. You're pretty much spot on. would say Nate definitely like is a lot more of a calming, know, I'm kind of like people tell me I'm just fiery, you know, like we've had different.   The Dental A Team (32:07) You   I do remember you walking   up. You wouldn't even shut your light off on me. Like you were busy. You were down to business. Like, here, I need these things in the most respectful way. ⁓   Hunter Bennett (32:14) Yeah, I'm   Pretty pretty focused. Yeah, pretty focused I would say and so I would say there is that little bit of balance But Nate's not a dummy like he was harvard number two in his class at harvard like he's super smart and so He would always lean into me for the business stuff just because I had a degree and I could speak the language and accounting and depreciation and all you know, like that stuff I think sort of intimidated him more than it needed to because once you explain it, know, you know But because he hadn't trained that way like he would sort of lean into me and that stuff   The Dental A Team (32:33) or.   Right.   Hunter Bennett (32:43) But even having someone to talk about because he'd already dealt with the accountant. He already dealt with workers comp. So I'd be like, hey, how does this work? Cause I'd never done it. So he'd explain it to me. And then as a team, we would work it out. You know, as a team, we would make big decisions. So yeah, I mean, you'll both bring different things to the table. And it's actually good that you can be different. I had another opportunity to partner somewhere else before Nate. I was way too much like that guy. I was like.   The Dental A Team (32:49) Thank   Yes.   Hunter Bennett (33:10) This isn't gonna work. I knew right away like I said, you know I went and visited the practice did the whole thing sent like a follow-up email and I think we both knew it's just like yes, isn't gonna work and The negotiations didn't go very far and it was fun. It was like we're still friends and we keep in touch So I think it's important to like you think ⁓ we're so alike man That's not always like the best thing. And so our differences are actually probably what what bring us together and make us strong ⁓   The Dental A Team (33:19) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   No.   Hunter Bennett (33:37) Yeah. And so that's, that's like a, that's a super fair point about that. And again, a lot of it's just been serendipitous. Like that just happened to fall into place. It just, it's just worked out that way, but it's, it's like a marriage. That's the perfect thing. It's like, it's like a marriage without all the benefits per se. Like you just, you're just like, you're just, you just get the hard part of them. Yeah. You just get the hard, you get the hard part of the marriage where you have tough conversations, but again, you just take them head on. And when you have no ego and, or a limited ego, and when you just want your partner to succeed, like   The Dental A Team (33:38) Yeah.   You get the profits benefit.   Hunter Bennett (34:08) You can't really fail in my opinion. ⁓ even when it came to like negotiate, like I had six months of partnership income that I was missing out on, but then there's the COVID thing. And, at the end of the day, said, Nate, like what number, like what, what, what do want me to do the whole valuation? I didn't really care. I was willing to pay whatever I didn't. To me, the relationship was way more important than any number. And so we just came to a number that we both felt good about based on the valuation, but I was flexible and frankly, I didn't care because it was so important to me. And, ⁓   The Dental A Team (34:09) That's awesome.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (34:37) And we came to what we thought both was fair and it's been, it's been a dream. you know, and those, we're like best friends and those conversations can still be a little awkward and a little hard, but they don't have to be. And they, they were always fine. You know, um, if there's a book I could recommend, talk about it all the time. It's Crucial Conversations. Um, one of my favorite books of all time. think everybody should read it before you get married. You should read it like in college. Like I think it should be required reading before you graduate college.   The Dental A Team (34:50) Right.   Hunter Bennett (35:04) But that's one book that's just helped me a ton. As a leader, business owner, as a partner, ⁓ husband, it's just helped me a ton.   The Dental A Team (35:05) Definitely agree.   I love that. I also love that you guys just, I think when you said like it just works and it was serendipitous, I think that's something to look for in a partnership. I think if anybody's looking at partners, if it's hard and it's just not flowing, don't force it to work. ⁓ The best partnerships I really do see where they kind of fall into place this way, they're aligned, you hire people that are complimentary to you, not just like you, because you do need the two halves to a whole.   Hunter Bennett (35:29) Hmm.   The Dental A Team (35:39) to make it really great. And then I think you guys have done a good job of keeping egos in check. think you guys, what you said Hunter, that I hope all partners listening to this or potential partners, you want your partner to succeed and that's your ultimate goal and that's what you're driving for. when Jason and I learned that in our marriage, where like my greatest success is Jason's success, it went from a like, what are you giving for me? And what am I getting out of this relationship to a like,   I want Jason to give me five stars because he's a raving fan because like I am, I'm doing all that I possibly can to make sure he's succeeding and his life is incredible. And when both partners are in that, it goes away from you and it goes to them and to make sure that they're succeeding. And I really do see that that works great in marriages, partnerships. So I'm obsessed with that. Kudos to you guys on that. I love that also Hunter, I hope people buying in.   the partnership and having that, I say the way you start a partnership is how you're going to end the partnership. I love Hunter that you came in as the quote unquote junior partner, but you, leveled yourself up to be an equal partner to him. And I'm really proud of you because I think a lot of associates are stay very timid. They say very junior. They act like they don't know anything rather than being like an equal partner. And I'm like, no, no, no, if you're going to be a partner in this, you need to be a partner and bring your weight. So kudos to you on that.   Hunter Bennett (36:49) Yeah.   Totally.   The Dental A Team (36:57) And then I also just really love that you guys have just had multiple conversations that you just have blended it so beautifully and that you said you were willing to pay whatever he wanted. Like, of course, you're going to be fair. You knew the numbers, but the partnership and the success was more important to you. And I think when you go into it and that's how you start your partnership, I can tell why you guys are actually really great partners. So great job and thanks for highlighting that. And now I want to know about selling to a DSO because I do agree. ⁓ Having a consultant.   oftentimes makes it where you don't have to sell to a DSO. And we do that sometimes. Sometimes I'll grow the practices for you and it's like, well, why would you sell to a DSO when they're just gonna come in and grow your business anyway? Like, let's do this on your own. I had a doctor who we were chatting and he's like, yeah, Kiera, they're gonna give me five mil for it. And I said, cool. Next year, you're probably gonna do five million on your own or within two years. So you can pay them out and they're just gonna do what you were already going to do. And agreed, a lot of that stress comes.   Hunter Bennett (37:36) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (37:55) from that, but Hunter, you said something in the very beginning that struck me when you said you sold to the DSO. You said your life has exponentially gotten better. Your work life balance has gotten better since selling to the DSO, but you also said that you're doing pretty much all the same things you were doing as a business owner. So I'm super curious. How did your life get better while you're still doing, like you were like, I'm still hiring, I'm still firing. And I was like, so what was the perk of selling to a DSO and helped me understand how your life got better?   Hunter Bennett (38:19) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (38:23) And then I also want to know about your cell deal too, if you're open to that.   Hunter Bennett (38:27) Yeah, for sure. don't, um, I probably should have illustrated the point that it's not like we didn't just get overwhelmed and all of sudden decide, okay, we're not, we're just going to throw up our hands and sell. Like we had hired a different office manager who was like, went through like Gary Katas's training. Like, like she was phenomenal. She was amazing. In fact, like she was a lot like you in a lot of ways, just really great personality, new dentistry. And I thought she was going to change our lives, you know, and she is awesome. Like she's an amazing person.   But it didn't end up working out. She left the practice that was being transitioned to a new doctor. So she came with us for a few weeks and it was going okay. And then they had a big crisis back there and she's like, is it okay if I just go back and help for like a week? And we're like, yeah, do what you need to do, you know? And then that doctor offered her equity in his practice. And so she ended up staying there, whatever. Yeah, whatever, it is what it is. And so my point is, like, I feel like we tried a different office manager. We tried restructuring and we tried.   The Dental A Team (39:15) I mean, good deal.   Hunter Bennett (39:25) The only thing we didn't hire a consultant, we definitely talked about it, but we didn't, I think in some ways I was probably just a weak leader in that way where I was maybe a little bit too proud to just get the help that we probably needed and instead just went a different route, you know? And so hindsight's always 20-20, but that just to create a little bit of the background to the story though. So it's not like we just, you know, all of sudden decided, you know, we're gonna,   The Dental A Team (39:47) Of course.   Hunter Bennett (39:55) just sell. So we had done all this other footwork. Sorry, what did you want to know about like the structure of the deal or what? Yeah. Okay. So when we, so when we, you know, after having done all this, we kind of, we had interviewed all these doctors, we had one kind of in the holster, maybe you can associate and we were just like, we were interviewing people, but we was just so, we were just tired. It's just like when you're doing root canal, it's like from like seven to five and you don't even have time to use like the bathroom.   The Dental A Team (40:03) I do, I do want to know structure of the deal. Yeah, tell me it.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (40:25) get a drink of water. It's just, we just burned ourselves out because we were chasing something and I don't even think we, we just wanted to change growth. Like we just wanted to, we just wanted to grow. We just always said all the time, were just grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And so we just kept the pedal to the metal. Excuse me. And I would say we just sort of outgrew ourselves and not that the wheels ever fell off, but like the culture in our practice was okay. Like we had good people, but we did have some of the wrong people on the bus. ⁓   The Dental A Team (40:27) Yep.   Hunter Bennett (40:52) And so when we started talking to DSOs, they saw our numbers, they saw our trajectory and we knew we had a lot of leverage. It was 2021. So the market was just red hot. We got a really good evaluation. We got a really good multiple. they were, you know, and so, you know, I actually talked to Matt Molcock, you know, he's my advisor and, ⁓ and just, I talked to my mentors, Dr. Jones, like, you know, ⁓ just people that I really respect. He's the man he had started nine, nine different endo or worked in or started nine different practices and   The Dental A Team (40:59) I see. That is hot.   Mm-hmm.   Aw, Dr. John.   Hunter Bennett (41:19) And his advice to me was like, you know, like I would do it if I were you. And so a lot of people would just had kind of encouraged me. And so at that point, me and Nate said, you know, we, and we got opinions both ways. And at the end of the day, our conclusion was it doesn't matter. Like, if I'm being honest, like that was kind of our answer to a kind of a joint prayer was like, it's not going to matter. Like it just, doesn't matter which way you go with this. ⁓ for the things that are truly important, it's not going to matter what you do.   The Dental A Team (41:35) Agreed.   Hunter Bennett (41:46) And so we, we, we decided to do the deal and I will say, like I said, the first six months were rough, but to the credit of my, company, like the group that I'm with, like our team and the people that we work with, they're phenomenal. Like I've never like had a, they, they just always bend over backward to accommodate us and help us. And we've done our part. We've grown like crazy, you know, are there times where I'm like, man, we could have done this on our own and, ⁓ our   The Dental A Team (42:06) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (42:12) whatever, you know, and you look at your paycheck now because now I'm paid on a percentage and I have equity in the company. And so you're just waiting on a recap. And that's a whole, again, talking about, we can get into this too is DSOs have so many different types of structures. Ours is not like a joint venture. So we don't, we don't profit share in ours. It's all in our equity. so equity events are like super important for us. and so Scotty Hudson Smith is our CEO and he's the one that did smile docs. they, he's done it three times.   The Dental A Team (42:21) Yep.   They are.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (42:41) He came to our dinner like the night that they were recruiting us and he wasn't officially the CEO yet But like he was sliding in that role. It just hadn't been announced I think it was like the next week or something, but he came and he just sort of created the vision for us and we just honestly we a little bit of a feeling and sort of that answer like it's not gonna matter and Now looking back Are there days that are where I have resented like seeing what I produce versus what I take home sometimes?   But I've got to remember they give you five or six years of your profitability upfront. And I've been able to put all that to work, you know, for the most part, I've done pretty well with that. Like not like home run, like you, you know, it's not like crazy stuff, but it's fine. I'm diversified now. Um, it's not all in my practice, but I do have a bit still in equity quite a bit. we did a 70 30 split. did 70 % cash, 30 % equity in the group. Um, and I just,   The Dental A Team (43:09) Sure.   Sure.   Right.   Nice.   Hunter Bennett (43:36) Some groups will give you flexibility, some won't. That's just the number that we wanted and they agreed to. And looking back, I'm still glad I did it that way. I actually had an opportunity to buy more equity about a year in, which I did. And so I bought more. And so that allowed me to just be a little bit more leveraged into the company.   on a bigger scale, like me and Nate work real hard for each other, but now you just got all these partners that are counting on you. And I think the mojo and the culture in our group is quite good. So.   The Dental A Team (44:04) Yeah, that's it. That's actually really, really good to know because I think so many people wonder about DSOs. And so what did the DSO take off of you guys? Because I know there's some people that get scared of the equity. Like they get scared of equity because some DSOs have actually gone under. And so I actually love to hear that you were a 70-30 split, then you were able to buy in more if you wanted to, because if it goes under, that is your retirement. And so I love that you were able to put money into work so your retirement's not solely like   Hunter Bennett (44:12) Yeah, that's what you asked.   ⁓ Yeah.   The Dental A Team (44:31) vested into this company. I really am big on that when DSOs do purchase, but what did they take off your guys's plates going in as a DSO?   Hunter Bennett (44:31) Totally.   Yeah, sorry, that's what you asked me and I kind of got off track there, but...   The Dental A Team (44:40) That's okay. I wanted   the deal. I wanted the deal. I actually wanted to know that a lot.   Hunter Bennett (44:44) So we skipped to the deal,   but going back, like the thing that they've helped with the most, would say is like, just as an example, like, like, ⁓ there's like this employment tax, you know, that we'd always get these letters about every year with Florida and we'd call them and then I spent an hour on the phone, finally getting to someone. And then I had already canceled it, but then they automatically renewed it for it. And so it's just like, that's like one example, work, workman's comp. ⁓ even just like we had an office book for like policy.   And again, this might speak more to maybe my lack of strong leadership where when a team member says, well, I understand that's the policy, but this is what I have going on. And then when you bend the rules for one person, then it sort of just creates this culture of favoritism. And again, that was probably partly being a new owner and then a people pleaser. and something I've worked on a lot. And again, I'm not the same leader I was even five years ago, you know, four years ago when we sold, but, ⁓ having seen that now they, because there are just   The Dental A Team (45:34) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (45:40) company policies in place. And again, it might be a little maybe feel corporate, but now you sort of see the reason why things are corporate because otherwise people, if you run it like a small business and you do those little things here or there, all it does is create resentment within your team. And so ⁓ I will say just having a really, we've gone through like, man, we hired like two or three different office managers through the company that they helped us hire. And finally we hired internally and she's   The Dental A Team (45:53) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (46:09) man, she's phenomenal. she has just totally, she was at our front desk, she wasn't in dentistry, she came to the front desk and really for first couple of years she was pretty quiet. And then when we interviewed, we're like, we need to interview, are you interested? And she said, yeah, like I would. And she's absolutely just crushing it. And so she is a big reason because we finally, you know, like it's just a good fit for her, you know? And our old office manager is still with us and she's amazing, she's amazing. And she's just so humbly taking the role. She's she's like,   The Dental A Team (46:10) Amazing.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (46:37) just want to be in the front and she's the best front office person in the world. You know what I mean? And that's she didn't want to be an office manager and so it's kind of worked itself out and but I don't know if we would have made those decisions without being sort of forced into it with it with our structure in the corporate, you know in the corporate group. If I'm being honest, you know, there's a couple things like we were salary like we just paid our girls salary for example and so there was always sort of this resentment because here it's very seasonal.   The Dental A Team (46:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Totally.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (47:06) So during winter, like our population in Naples doubles. And so the girls are working more hours. So they might work 42. I don't know if I should say this is, I guess it doesn't matter because I don't do it anymore, but they might work 42 or 44 hours one week. But in the summer, they're probably working 32, 34, 36. Or I'd just say, go home or whatever. So over the year, it just worked out. so they came to us, like, you can't do that. And so was like, so then we had to switch to hourly, which I really resented in that first six months. I was so mad. But now looking at it, it's actually the   The Dental A Team (47:06) Right.   Right.   You   Hunter Bennett (47:35) It's actually the fair way to do it. You know, it actually makes sense. ⁓ they like our, always get.   The Dental A Team (47:38) It is. So it sounds like you just got a lot of like,   you got like a lot of company backing is what I feel like it is like the structure of a business. Yeah. Yep.   Hunter Bennett (47:44) Totally, it's just more structure, more structure. I didn't have to be the bad guy, I guess. I sort   of get to say that's just how we do it. And so again, I think now, like the older version of Hunter sees that as, well, man, were kind of, you could have been a stronger leader, but I didn't know what I didn't know. ⁓ But now again, too, like looking at it, like this is exactly the path that I'm supposed to be on and it's fine. And truly like...   The Dental A Team (48:01) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (48:11) There's so many reasons to join a DSO. Some people are looking for an exit. Some people are looking for a lifestyle. And for me, it's just worked out that I, don't know what I was looking for besides relief from all the pressure I felt and, um, and it's worked out, you know? And so I still make enough money that I can do the things that I need to do and want to do. And if the equity works out, that's a cherry on top. And if it doesn't like it's okay for right now. And if I want to do something later,   I can do something else, you know, and that's the other thing too, like with, with the DSO is if, if you want to leave at some point you can. And I don't really have plans to leave per se, but like I, now it's an option. Whereas if I own the practice, that was one reason too, with me and Nate, who part of our thought process was, well, we're from the West in 10 years. If we want to sell in 10 years, who's going to buy us? Are we going to wait 10 years? Why don't we just do it now and grow with the DSO? So that was a big part of it too, is like, what is our exit? And so even though I'm only, I'm not, I'm 40 next year.   The Dental A Team (48:38) can.   Totally.   Hunter Bennett (49:08) I still was sort of planning an exit at some point because the practice was so big and we couldn't find a partner. So maybe that gives some insights retrospectively into our thought process because we did the same conversation every day for six months. But looking at it now, like that's what they've taken off our plate is all those little nuances that are just so mentally exhausting that now when I come home, I can just be present with my kids. I've changed my schedule. Like it's totally benefited my life.   The Dental A Team (49:14) Totally.   Hahaha!   Hunter Bennett (49:38) Lifestyle wise but it's not perfect but I would say an overall net positive, you know If you're not just looking at money, you know If you're not just looking at your month to month income I would say that's like the only downside is I don't make as much money as I used to but my lifestyle is way better so   The Dental A Team (49:43) That's amazing. Sure.   And so we traded a few things, but who knows it can pan out as well to where you actually make more in the future. That's not a given, but like today you're at least in a good space. You've traded ⁓ like money for time. And I think that that's one of the most beautiful things, which ties to, as we like quickly wrap up. I love that you just talked about all the pieces of DSO. I love that you have a great experience. I love hearing the pieces that they were able to take and agreed a lot of businesses actually need to sell to a DSO because they've grown too big that there's not a buyer for them. And like that is   Hunter Bennett (49:57) Yeah. Good.   Yeah.   The

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Tiff and Kristy go into the DNA of an effective leader. These are the common traits that Dental A-Team has seen from the top dental practices, with Tiff and Kristy breaking down how exactly these leaders were able to cultivate such characteristics. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Awesome. Hello, everyone. Dental A Team listeners, thank you so much for being here. I had the pleasure of having an email exchange with a really, really well-rounded office manager, regional manager. And anyways, my point was that she mentioned that she is an avid Dental A Team listener, and she has been for many years. And it was just so special to hear that and to have this email thread with her and to hear how much it has impacted her   professional life and I just wanted to give a massive shout out that came up this morning and I wanted to just thank you guys for being here because as much as this may impact your life and and hopefully add value to your systems, your practice, whether you're a dentist, whether you're a team member, office manager, and you know what I mean we've worked with CPAs, we've worked with chiropractors, we've worked with eye doctors.   anyone who's here listening, you found value in this and you continue to come back or if this is your first time, welcome. And I just want to give a massive shout out to you guys and a thank you for supporting our team and our company through the podcast. We love being here and we love what we get to do with you guys every single day. So massive shout outs and welcome to today. I have the beautiful pleasure of honestly having a very relaxed and calming   podcasting day and I have Miss Kristy here with me today and Kristy, know I've told you off camera, off mic, ⁓ how relaxing podcasting with you is and truly, truly from the bottom of my heart, you make podcasting very easy and stress free and knowing that we had a few today, really I was like, goodness it's Kristy, because I am just so excited to podcast with you. So Kristy, thank you so much for being here.   and just for being you. You bring a sense of ease, a sense of joy, and a sense of fun to our company as well as a multitude of other things and I value you. So thank you, Kristy. How are you this morning? It's still morning here as we're recording. How are you doing?   DAT Kristy (01:58) doing well and I'm with you Tiff. I mean we don't get to spend a lot of time with each other so whenever we get to spend time even if it's podcasting ⁓ I always enjoy my time with you so yep it's a good morning.   The Dental A Team (02:10) Thank you.   Thank you. I agree. I agree. The sun is shining. It's supposed to be cooling down. So I'll be missing it. But you should be able to enjoy some great Phoenix weather here in the next week and enjoy that pool of yours. And when I get back, we need to set up a coffee date because it just hasn't happened yet. And we need that time together. I'm really excited. In a few weeks, we've got our in-person mastermind that we've got a ton of our doctors.   DAT Kristy (02:27) Yes.   The Dental A Team (02:39) coming out to Phoenix to spend some time with us. And I know I have a few doctors, you have a few doctors that are coming. Each consultant has quite a few actually offices that are joining us. We're just super, super excited to host everyone here in Phoenix. I am, my clients, my clients know who they are. They are near and dear to my heart. They are some of my closest friends in my life. And I have a couple coming that I am so excited for you guys to meet.   And one of them is just so special and she knows who she is and I'm just giving her massive hugs and massive shout outs. She is such a supporter of everything we do. She's a supporter of me as a human and you know, I just am so excited for you to meet her, Kristy. So I wanted to just shout that out and let everybody know what's coming up in our lives. We've got a lot of Dental A Team fun happening and part of that is this.   course this mastermind that we've got coming up and the things that follow it that go along with that. mean we've got every month we have our doctors only mastermind for our clients and most of what we do is center focused around really truly building leaders and ⁓ within that I think I think something I tell my clients and my teams especially my teams when I'm working with teams is our goal is to create ease efficiency and joy.   in your jobs. No matter what your job is, no matter what your position you hold in the practice is, I want you to love going to do that every single day or at least I say like 95 % of the time there's going to be those days where you're like heck no Tiff I don't want to do this. But a lot of that comes down to I think effective leadership and being able to create a practice that works for you, a business that works for you instead of you working for the business, meaning it's just like gosh I'm exhausted every day and   Will this ever end? And new doctors, it does end. Okay, but not yet. Don't get too hasty. You gotta put your time in. You gotta do your time. But it does end. And Kristy, I think a lot of that, and something you're fantastic at, I've watched you do this with doctors. I've watched you do this with startup doctors. They know who they are. They're here listening too. And I've watched you do this with doctors who have been in practice for 10 years plus. You build incredible leadership.   through really solid systems and efficiency and culture and team. Kristy, my biggest question to you, I told you I was going to ask you this kind of defining question. When you think of a leader, when you think of a practice leader, a dentist leader, an office manager, and anyone who is deemed a leader or wants to be, what kind of characteristics do you think of within that person that either they innately have or can be developed?   DAT Kristy (05:27) You're going deep today, huh? ⁓ Yeah, I think number one, compassion because   The Dental A Team (05:30) I am, yeah. I don't know what's up today, but I am. It's in me.   DAT Kristy (05:44) With leadership, I think we owe it to our people to be brutally honest in a way, but do it in a compassionate way, if you will. the ability to be honest and share from that space of, want to better this person or I want to grow this person versus coming from a place of criticism.   You know what I mean? Because you and I have talked about this before. I don't think anybody walks into a job on any given day saying, I'm going to make it heck today. I'm just going to come in and raise havoc. And I don't think anybody intentionally does that. And so having a leader that can come from a compassionate space and understand that people really are trying to do well and be able to deliver from that space.   The Dental A Team (06:43) Yeah, I totally agree with you. think compassion's a fantastic word there. And ⁓ the way you described it, I think, defines that really clearly. Because I do think there's just so much confusion wrapped up in empathy, sympathy, compassion, being nice. And I think a leader is everything, is all of those pieces. But well-rounded and doesn't get lost in them is, I think, a good thing to say there. ⁓   They're all fantastic characteristics, but being able to navigate that and being able to navigate ⁓ clear and kind, like I really, I really truly love looking at the difference between kind and nice. And I think, you know, nice, even when you say like, ⁓ nice, it doesn't feel in your body as good as kind does. And when someone can be clear and kind, that's that compassionate side of I'm here with you.   And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you the way I'm going to show you the way. Right. And when we get off track, we're going to do it together. And I'm going to tell you when we get off track, when you're off track, when, things aren't being met, when the accountability needs to be put into place, I'm going to do that for you because that's kindness. I think a lot of leaders shy away from that because they want to be nice. They don't want to hurt feelings. They don't want to make someone feel like they're not a good team member or they're not doing a good job because they are doing a good job. They're just doing something that needs adjusting.   And I know Kristy, you've had these conversations too. I've listened to you have them with doctors and office managers of the not saying something to someone holding back information and holding back what could inspire them or just make them a better manager and leader is actually hurting the other person. So where we're trying to be nice and save their feelings, we're actually making it way worse and we're doing damage.   to the human, the person, and that think, Kristy, is where that compassionate side comes into play of compassionate kindness, of that joint. always say, ⁓ use words like I'm partnering with you, and can I partner with you in this? Are you open to me giving some feedback here? You really lay it out very well where it's open and, again, compassionate and kind. And Kristy, I think you do a great job with that.   How do you help to coach leaders and doctors to have those conversations and with verbiage like that? What are your biggest suggestions that even if somebody could take one thing away from today, maybe it's a suggestion of a hard conversation. ⁓ How do you suggest to your doctors and your clients how they can do that?   DAT Kristy (09:25) Yeah, I think there's a few things, Tiff. Honestly, in onboarding new people, I love to have the conversation before it even needs to happen. with new employees just opening the door that, hey, there's going to come a time when we have to address a few things. So finding out what their style is for addressing and always trying to accommodate in that way, I mean, you don't   always have the room to do that. But if I can find out, hey, there's going to come a time when we have to have a conversation, what is the best way to address you? How do you prefer me to approach you in those situations, first and foremost? And that obviously works well for new team members. But as we're learning leadership, we might not have all new team members. So coming into it,   for our existing team members just being vulnerable and honest and saying, hey, I'm looking to grow my leadership skills too, right? And so I may not always hit the mark, but I wanna open the door for honest open communication. And so just like what you said, asking permission and ⁓ I guess with that too is in that approach, always trying to make it from my point of view.   You know, maybe referring back to a situation and being able to address it like, hey, you know, I need to clear the air. And earlier when you were talking about the story I'm telling myself is, I'm sure, you know, that may not have been your intent and that's why I wanna open this space for communication. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (11:17) Yeah, that's beautiful.   That's beautiful. And what that leads into is kind of our next chapter of this whole podcast. And it so succinctly goes together because that communication that you just gave and that openness. I always think of when I when I hear you speak and when I hear you speak of ⁓ verbiage to be able to use like this, I think of you said vulnerable and I think vulnerable for sure. We're open, we're vulnerable, we're honest. But I think you also bring a sense of ⁓   like humility and humbleness to the conversation. And when a leader and a doctor or anyone who an established team member who's been there for a while can be humble and say, you know what, don't know everything and I am growing and learning because I'm a human and we're doing that in every space of our life. Who I am today as a mom, who I am today as a girlfriend, as a best friend, as a friend, a coworker, who I am today is different.   than even two weeks ago, right? We're constantly changing. So being able to be humble allows the space for the other person, for the other, and when you're a dentist and leader or office manager, having these conversations with the team, either individually or open forum, like allows them the space to know. They don't have to know it all either. And they can be in the space of learning and they can ask questions. So.   Kristy, think one of the biggest things we get asked, well, number one thing we get asked when people call in and say, Dental A Team, please help fix my family, is systems, right? And I was actually in a practice yesterday with our consultant Trish, and it was so much fun. And we did the team meeting, and one of the things I said to the whole team was, listen, everybody says we need systems. We need systems implemented. And I'm like, for sure, you need systems.   But systems without communication and without leadership, you already have systems. You know why they're not working, why they're quote unquote broken. You have systems. You're doing a lot of the things I'm going to tell you to do. You're just not doing them consistently and you're not talking about it. So if we can fix the communication and really bring that sense of humbleness, think what you've done there, Kristy, with that conversation that I hope people will take away and go spread is you have inspired.   a culture of positivity. Because whenever we're in a space, we've hired consultants, we have people on our, we have team members on our team right now that have said, I have never worked in a place that I didn't feel like I had to know everything. And when I didn't know a thing, I was scared to say it and I had to like go find it on my own. So we're like behind the scenes trying to track down information and hoping we're right. I remember in my dental practice,   Kiera talks all the time about how she didn't know the definition. She didn't know what KPI stood for, right? She knew it was important. She didn't know what the actual acronym meant. I only knew, and I tell her this all the time, I only knew what KPI stood for because when I became a leader in my dental practice, the office manager wanted me to come into the KPI meetings. And I was like, yeah, of course, I'll be there. Sure thing, no worries. Meanwhile, I'm over here Googling. What the heck is a KPI meeting?   I had no idea, but I also wasn't comfortable enough to be like, yeah, sure, whatever you want. What does that mean? How do I show up? What do I bring? How can I be valuable to that meeting? I Googled it, and then I sat there like, none of this makes sense. I sat in those meetings with the CPA, and I'm just like, I am not, I'm not the same as you guys, and I feel so small right now. But I was not in ⁓ an environment at that time that felt, and it wasn't because,   DAT Kristy (14:34) you   The Dental A Team (15:03) she wasn't supportive or helpful, I just didn't feel seen, heard, and ⁓ like I could be vulnerable, right? I had to just be, you had to put on a face and you had to do the thing. And I think, Kristy, what you've done with that communication is you've opened up space for the culture to really be what our clients are constantly asking for. They're always asking, Tiff, how do I fix the culture, right, Kristy?   Help me fix my culture. How do I get my team engaged? And it's like, you just did it with one sentence, right? Have you seen that, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (15:36) Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ It's communication out of the gate. I don't know the exact statistic, you may know a little better than me, but I know it's up in the high 90 % that all communication is misunderstood just out of the gate. So we already have that going against us. Anything we can do to help open that door and create that safe space. And again,   I guess my biggest thing, if you kind of said, if there was one takeaway, don't ever start a sentence with why. Don't ever start a sentence with why because you'll automatically put them on the defense. Maybe asking a question of, you share with me how you came to this decision or not, why did you do this?   The Dental A Team (16:17) I totally agree.   Yeah, yeah. think a lot of communication starts that way. And I think I try to encourage teams in general, people, when I go into practices and I'm having these meetings and I'm having similar conversations of teaching even just a full team how to communicate together, I actually try to encourage them to stop considering that they're two different people in their lives. Because we think   I'm at work, I have to be this person at work, but at home, like, are you saying if you were to go to your husband or your kid, like, I think of Brody, my 17 year old son, and for those of you who have been listening for a long time, he's 17 now, yes. But I think like, if I came to him and I was like, why did you do it like this? He'd be like, well, why wouldn't I have? And I'm like, well, that's not, like, I actually needed to know why you did it this way. And he's like, well, why are you asking, right? It would just be this like back and forth.   But instead, come almost like I tell people, think about how to get around it. The why this hard statement is the rock in between you guys. And if you try to push through that rock in the middle, you're not going to get anywhere. I massively hurt my wrist one time trying to move this rock that did not look as heavy as it was for years. My wrist hurt. That's what you're doing. But walking around that rock, walking around that boulder and saying,   I actually really want to understand because sometimes, Ray, I tell practices, if you don't agree with what I'm saying that we need to implement, like tell me because I could be wrong. I might not know your practice as well as I think I do and we need to talk through it. And that's the same thing. Like maybe we got a different result than we wanted, but I need to know how you got there because number one, if you use the system that's in place, it's broken. Number two, if we didn't use the system, we needed to know.   what we did use, right? So I think that's brilliant, Kristy, and really just a way to like get around that issue that's in the middle and keep defenses down.   DAT Kristy (18:27) for sure. Another technique that I've used before and especially from leaders is make sure you keep speaking to the results you're looking for. It's painting the clarity for the person on the other end. What's the end result? What are we trying to achieve here that we're missing the mark? You know, another great thing is being able to state the behavior that you are seeing now, maybe even what it's causing.   You know, for instance, when you are in morning huddle and you go, what about, you know, can you see how that maybe drags everybody down and moving forward, stating the behavior you want to see moving forward? It's OK if you feel that way. But can you refrain from saying it in front of everybody? And you and I have a conversation on the side, you know. So again, it's what's the behavior today that's happening that   isn't so favorable, what's the result we want to see and speaking to that versus the person.   The Dental A Team (19:30) I love that. And again, that is like infusing the care into the person and the situation. But like I want I want you to be looked at as a leader in your position. And I know, just from my own experience, when you do come to the table that way, people actually like the people lose trust in you, you lose value, right. And so I do agree being able to show up. And I think the flip side to all of this that I   of thought of while you were saying that piece, because that's massive, is being able to show up how you want others to and then backing this up. So there's a difference in having this conversation and just being like, cool, had the conversation, Kristy. My team didn't do anything about it. They don't care. They're not changing. And then having the conversation and walking the walk, backing it up and continuing. know, Kristy, you probably get asked this a lot too.   DAT Kristy (20:03) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (20:26) They're like, well, how many times do I have to say it? They're not listening. And I'm like, they are, but they've been, if you're working with a team that's established, right, even established with you, they've been down a road already. So we're retraining behaviors and habits. But the only way to do that is by continuing to show up how you want them to show up. You can't tell someone, I can't tell Brody to do this thing. But if I do it, if I.   If I show him and care and love him enough to show him how to behave and how to be in the world, he mimics that, right? We are all just mirroring each other. We are literally duplicating and repeating what we're seeing. So if your team, this one's a hard truth, this just popped in, but if your team, you're like, my team sucks, be like,   Actually, you know what? Maybe I should look in the mirror and reflect to myself because if I look at my actions, I were mirroring myself and watching myself, how would I show up? Because if you're not walking that walk and you're like, yeah, sweet, vulnerable, humble, come tell me, and then somebody has a conversation with you and you're like, well, this is why, let me tell you why. Guess what you're gonna get when you say, why did this happen? You're gonna get the same behavior, right, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (21:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, 100%. You know me and my analogies, but we literally are a product of what we live, right? We learn what we live. And so if we're always coming from that critical spirit, we're going to get more of that, you know? So coming from that space of ⁓ understanding, right, versus criticism. ⁓ And to your point, it's coming full circle again.   A lot of times we don't lean into those difficult conversations and those literally are so powerful. Like really that's where our growth comes and I challenge people to see them as a caring conversation versus a negative conversation if you will. ⁓ Really our growth comes from that and not addressing it is also validating the behaviors.   The Dental A Team (22:34) totally agree.   Totally agree with you. That is, drop the mic right there. I totally agree. And that's that nice space, right? Where we're like, well, I don't want to make them feel bad. Well, you just told them it was okay what they're doing then. So either you have to get over that and be okay with whatever it is. You can no longer hold it against them. And it has become a standard of okayness or you have that conversation. Those are the only two options. That is a.   do or die, like only two options. You cannot personally or professionally continue to hold something against someone if you're not willing to help to change that behavior.   DAT Kristy (23:16) Yeah, and you know, with that tip, I would say I was in that space too, when I was learning, learning to be a leader, because yes, we all have innate characteristics that can guide us to being a leader, but it is a muscle that has to be developed and leaning into those conversations had made me a better leader. But also, I would say having a mentor.   or a coach like us to practice the conversations can be very helpful. Before you get into those conversations, I tell my doctors that all the time. mean, think of professional football teams or baseball or whatever. I always say, how much time do they spend practicing versus how much time do they play on the field? And how often do we practice having hard conversations?   The Dental A Team (23:47) Totally.   Yeah.   Totally. I agree.   Mm-hmm. I totally agree with you and I tell leaders all the time practice at home. I have thank the Lord he blessed me with Brody I have practiced so much communication on him and watched how it's molded him and been like, okay or watched his Reactions or just how a situation altered based on my communication and been like, okay Well, that was a misstep because I think our kids will always tell us ⁓ and it's just it's   DAT Kristy (24:13) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (24:35) training and teaching and guiding them to. So practice on your family. Tell your family, I'm going to practice this. Tell your husband, tell your wife. I don't care. But I do. I totally agree with you. Practice is key. And I think effective leadership and dentistry comes down to being able to have those conversations and being able to back it up. And if you're trying to create a great culture, you're trying to get your team engaged, this is the way to do it. And like Kristy said, you don't have to do it alone.   DAT Kristy (24:41) You   The Dental A Team (25:03) You never do. You never have to do it alone ever. We are always here. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You guys know that. You've listened to this a million times, but also if you're a client, reach out to your consultant. ⁓ And if you're a future client, like reach out to us. We are here. We're here to have the conversations and we know that you can do it. This is how you inspire culture. So my auction item, Kristy, I think for everyone is to take a look at their leadership style, at the things that are maybe driving you crazy.   DAT Kristy (25:03) Mm-mm.   The Dental A Team (25:33) ⁓ that you feel like you're hitting a wall or maybe your team just isn't right where you want them to be. And then just have a moment of self-actualization and really look at what's creating that. And is there something that you can do differently as a leader that could get a different result? Because that's how you're going to inspire a team to be solution oriented as well. So Kristy, this was beautiful. I hope everyone enjoyed this deep dive of communication and effective leadership conversation. Thank you so much, Kristy, for your amazing   words, you really do handle communication in a way that a lot of people don't yet know how to. So thank you for sharing that wisdom with us today. Everyone, go drop us a review. You know I love to say that, but I really do mean it. And five stars are always fantastic, but really, truly just tell us what worked best for you. If there's anything that you've done that's working, people really do read those reviews.   DAT Kristy (26:13) You're welcome.   The Dental A Team (26:28) drop some information in there as well. And then as always reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. are here to serve and help you, whether it's through leadership, whether it's through systems that is leadership or really just finding those spaces that are overlooked. I know when we were in a practice yesterday, we found just like the easiest, most simple, low hanging fruit possible to make a massive difference. And the office manager said, how did you like that is, I can't believe I didn't think of that. And I said, you know what?   You're here every single day. You're in it. You're in the thick of it. You're in the weeds. You're busy. This is why we exist, is to be able to come in and see areas that are unnoticed that could make a massive, massive difference. So reach out. We are here for you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And we cannot wait to meet you. Thanks, guys.  

Show Notes  In this episode of Acute Conversations, we welcome Dr. Nicole Neveau, PT, DPT, NCS — Director of Rehabilitation Services at SSM Health St. Louis University Hospital and our newest co-host. Nicole shares her path into acute care, from unfolding paper charts as a new grad to leading a team of more than 100 therapists. She reflects on lessons learned in trauma and neuro ICUs, the importance of mentorship, and why she sees therapists as consultants who guide recovery through evidence, collaboration, and patient stories. Alongside host Dr. Leo Arguelles, Nicole also previews the upcoming 2026 Bridge the Gap Conference in Chicago and what it means for connecting research with practice. Today's Guests: Nicole Neveau, PT, DPT, NCS

Can we resolve the crisis in cosmology? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Matt Kirshen take on Hubble Tension, the difference between the estimated ages of the universe, and how to solve it with legendary astronomer Wendy Freedman.NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://startalkmedia.com/show/solving-the-crisis-in-cosmology-with-wendy-freedman/Thanks to our Patrons Smallevent, Ralph, Arun, Pandey, Nick Ohlheiser, Dantheman, Brian Campana, Mel, Micheal TRilling, Daniel Arvizu, James, Lily Morant, Jon Githrex, Daniel Frank, Gini Kramer, Opal Lehman, M M, pheobekate, Najwa DeForest, Kyle, Mama M, Jerome Cameron, Charles, David "Kiwi" Keller, Scott Chaddon, Erin T, Quin Shimamura, Wilma, Jerry the Epicurean, Matt Brady, loreen spchler, AlexK89, Eric Lee, Mantautas Jokubenas, Dustin, Regina Rhew Hoilman, Professional Dave, Nicholas Hayes, Joe White, Eddie Olsson, Amanda Granberry, Gloria Askin, Crimson Blaze, Steven Banker, Chris Washington, Ethan, oliver cooke, Terrence Sauvain, Maurice van der Linden, Yesking, joe vaughn, Micheal Wilson, Daaku, Espen Sande Larsen, Deepanshu Biniwale, Alexis Barrera, Kalie Pillar, ConcernedOnlooker, Margaret, Vinay Murthy, Finesse TheGod, Fraser PArk Vlad, AdamJ, Alexander Verharen, Susan Soard, Pete, Jaidyn Janis, Joe, AndyL, and Paul Williams for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of StarTalk Radio ad-free and a whole week early.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I'm excited to welcome back my friend, writer, and podcaster Kim Lengling for her second appearance on Unstoppable Mindset. Kim's journey is a powerful example of how unexpected changes can lead to new beginnings filled with purpose, faith, and hope.   In our conversation, Kim shares how losing her corporate job in 2020 opened the door to writing, podcasting, and a deeper exploration of the things that bring her joy. Together, we talk about the importance of balance, kindness, and being present—whether that's through connecting with nature, learning from animals, or practicing gratitude even during life's hardest moments.   What We Talked About Kim's Writing Journey – From her first anthology contribution to full-time writing and podcasting, and how storytelling became both a calling and a source of healing. Work-Life Balance – Why flexibility, happiness, and cultural shifts matter in how we work and live. Nature & Animals as Teachers – Lessons in patience, empathy, and presence, from walks in the woods to stories about guide dogs and even a moth's transformation. Faith & Resilience – How Kim found faith in her 30s, and how prayer, stillness, and gratitude help her manage PTSD and life's challenges. Nuggets of Hope Project – Kim's book and community initiative built around small acts of kindness, and how those acts ripple outward in powerful ways. This episode is full of heart, gentle wisdom, and encouragement. Whether you're navigating change, seeking more balance, or simply needing a reminder of the beauty in kindness, Kim's words are sure to resonate.     About the Guest:   As a multi-published author, Kim shares her love of nature and animals, her life with PTSD, and her mission to toss out Nuggets of Hope through her writing and podcast.   Kim is the lead author and coordinator of six anthologies: The When Grace Found Me Series (three books), When Hope Found Me, Paw Prints on the Couch, and Paw Prints on the Kitchen Floor. Her newest book, Nuggets of Hope, was released on November 15, 2024.   In addition to writing, she hosts the podcast Let Fear Bounce, which spotlights people who have faced and overcome personal fear(s) to make a difference in their slice of the world through writing, coaching, film production, philanthropy, teaching, founding non-profits, public speaking, or simply being an amazing human being.   You can regularly find Kim drinking coffee, reading, and talking with the critters in the woods while taking long walks with her dog, Dexter. Visit her website, www.kimlenglingauthor.com, to keep up with everything happening in her realm.   Ways to connect with Kay:     Website:                                www.kimlenglingauthor.com Amazon:                               https://www.amazon.com/author/kimlengling   Let Fear Bounce                 @Letfearbounce Apple:                                   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/let-fear-bounce/id1541906455   Facebook:                            https://www.facebook.com/letfearbouncepodcast   LinkedIn:                              https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlylengling/   Instagram:                            https://www.instagram.com/lenglingauthor/   Twitter:                                  https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   TikTok:                                 ** https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi everyone, and here we are once again with another episode of unstoppable mindset. And I'd like to welcome you all to another episode from wherever you may be. And we have a guest who was on once before, Kim lemring, and Kim is here to continue our discussions. One of the things that I ask people to do when they're going to come going to come on this podcast is to send me questions they want to talk about. And so when we decided that Kim was going to come on again, I asked her to send me more questions. So I don't know how much agony she had to go through to figure that out, but I'll bet she figured it out pretty well, since she's a published author with a lot of books to her credit, so we'll and we'll talk about some of those as well. So again, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here again.   Kim Lengling ** 02:09 Well, thanks for having me back. I've been looking forward to this.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I think it was episode 327, that you were in originally. So anyway, we're, we're glad you're here, and I think it will be a lot of fun to kind of talk about things. Again, you're in Pennsylvania, which is kind of cool. You share a love of nature and animals, and I guess you write about those things. Tell us a little bit about, kind of in general, what you write about, and how you got started in doing   Kim Lengling ** 02:39 that. Yeah, I got started writing. I wasn't I never thought to be a writer that wasn't a dream of mine or anything that was even on the back burner. I was approached years ago by a woman that I had met in a business networking group, and she was putting together an anthology, and asked me if I would like to contribute a chapter. And the name of the book was called Inspire. And it's, you know about inspiring stories about people that have overcome something, whether it's trauma or what have you. And I had never shared my story before, and I had, I declined. I politely declined. At first, she, you know, kind of kept at me. She was persistent, but in a gentle, loving way, and said, Kim, you shared your story with me. And I really think it's something that should be shared. And so I eventually did share that, and that was a an eye opener for me, on on actually writing and writing something that's so personal and had such an impact. And from that point forward, I kind of kind of got bit by the writing bug. I'm thinking, You know what? I had such positive feedback from the story as well. And I thought, okay, maybe, maybe this is something I should look into a little bit more. I was working full time and all of that. So I was just writing, you know, in my off timer in late in the evenings when I couldn't sleep or something like that. But that's kind of how it started.   Michael Hingson ** 04:09 What were you working on originally, before you started writing, what were you doing?   Kim Lengling ** 04:13 I was sales and sales and marketing manager. That's, that's my background in the corporate world. Ah, yeah. Did that for, oh, close to 25 years.   Michael Hingson ** 04:24 Wow, yeah, then you, then you decided to go off and spin and do other things.   Kim Lengling ** 04:30 Well, the world changed. It was 2020   Michael Hingson ** 04:34 Oh, the world did change. Yeah, yes, the world   Kim Lengling ** 04:37 changed. And I lost my job, along with millions and millions of others, because so many doors were closing, and many of them closed for good, when the world changed at that time. And I thought, you know, at the season I'm at in life, in other words, the age I decided I don't want to go back in the corporate world. I'm not happy there anymore. I don't feel fulfilled in any way. And all of the doors are shut right now. Everyone's stuck at home. We can't do anything. I'm gonna try and make something happen. And, you know, figure out, figure out what it is I can do. So I asked myself three questions, what are you good at? What do you like doing? And what are you having a passion for? And I thought, Well, okay, I actually like writing. I'm getting much better at it from when I started years ago, and I love meeting and talking to new people and learning new things. So I took that and created a podcast and started writing books.   Michael Hingson ** 05:36 There you go. You know, it's interesting, when September 11 occurred. The main mantra I heard from so many people is, or was, at the time, we got to get back to normal. And my reaction was always kind of negative. And it took me a while to realize why I was never happy hearing that, and the reason I wasn't, rightfully so, by the way, was normal would never be the same again. And so many people kept saying, We got to get back to normal, but normal would never be the same again. And the other thing that hopefully people are a little bit more now discovering is that normal is a moving target anyway. I mean, look at the pandemic, and getting back to normal is not going to be productive from that either. The pandemic happened. Some companies want you to just come back to work full time, which flies in the face of the whole concept that maybe there is relevance in letting people at least partially work at home, because they're happier and they will be just as productive, if not more, so if you really go back to the whole concept of having happy employees, but you know, we're still not there   Kim Lengling ** 06:56 yet. No, I agree. Yes, yes. And prior to I was really unhappy where I was at and it felt like, and I'm, I am sure that there are many, many people out there that feel the same, or have felt the same, that you're just on this, you're on this hamster wheel, and it just seems you're more and more is expected. Now, I'm a hard worker. Always have been, so I'm not, I would never stop the issue, right? Yeah, that's not the issue, but it's, you know, quality of life. Am I living to work or I'm working to live? Mm, hmm, you know? And it gets to the point where sometimes that's where I for me personally, that's why I said, you know, I don't want to go back in the corporate world. I was so unhappy, and it was actually becoming the the atmosphere I was in was making me unhealthy, and that's not good long term either. And I'm thinking, I want to be able to enjoy retirement if I ever get there, you know, Lord willing, I want to be able to enjoy retirement in a healthy manner, not be sick and you know. So it was a big decision, and it was kind of scary. That's why they named my podcast. Let fear bounce. There was, there was some fear in there, but I thought, you know, if not now when you know when, when gonna be feeling okay, Kim, you know. I think that's a question we all have to ask. Now, I know everybody's circumstance is so different. I know that. And please don't think you know anyone listening that I'm putting any, I'm making light of any situation that someone's in. But for me, I had reached that point where it's like, I'm just gonna do it, I'm just gonna do it period. And it was bumpy. It was very bumpy. And actually, I will be very honest, it was very hard the first two years. I'll bet there were times I'm like, am I gonna be able to make the mortgage?   Michael Hingson ** 08:46 You know, yeah, and that's a fair question, but at the same time, you made a decision that I'm sure helped your health a lot, and the more you came to grips with all of it, probably the better things became for you.   Kim Lengling ** 09:06 Yes, you're absolutely right. And once I, you know, I had to, I had to let those fears bounce, you know, like you said, I made that decision, and I was getting healthier, and I was feeling much better mentally as well as physically, and that's huge. Yeah, you know, you life is not meant to be a grind.   Michael Hingson ** 09:29 Well, it's not supposed to be. You're right. How do we get the corporate world to recognize that and deal with it? And I hope that the pandemic would would help, and it has in some quarters, but in some quarters it certainly has not. How do we get people to recognize that there's a lot to be said for giving people more freedom on the job, letting people spend some time working from home, and the reality is they'll. Probably be more productive. I spoke with someone a few months ago on the podcast about it was in he was in Europe the work week, and what he said that there was that there's a big difference between five, eight hour days and 410, hour days or four eight hour days, depending on what different companies did, but for 10 hour days, you had an extra day that you didn't have to work and that you worked at home. And surveys have shown productivity wise people do at least as well with the 410, hour days or four day work week than they do with a five day work week.   Kim Lengling ** 10:44 I've my ex husband, who is from Germany, and they in Germany anyway, and I think a lot of Europe, they have much more time off than Americans do. So you know, when he moved here, he was, like, two weeks off a year. What do you mean? Two weeks that is nothing. Because they get they get six, yeah, you know, and they have much more sick time and much more personal time they're able to take. And a lot of the the companies, at least over there, from what I know from him, the larger companies, they recognize that that, you know, a happy, healthy employee is going to be a loyal employee, yep. And you know, working your folks into the ground, they're going to burn out and leave you sooner. And I, you know, I don't know, Michael, you have to tell me what you think, or what you've run into when you talk to folks. Do some larger companies. And I don't know, because I'm not in the corporate world anymore, but anymore, but do some larger companies in larger cities, because I'm in a rural area, they have employees. But then, you know, there's that's just work. Work works so much over time they burn out, and then they hire younger and younger people for less and less money until they, in turn, burn out. It seems like it's an endless cycle, from what I've heard from a few folks that I've talked to, you heard that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 12:04 Well, I've heard that. And in fact, I spoke with someone yesterday, and we were talking about the whole concept of how investors and CEOs and so on work to a to a degree. And one of the bottom lines is the only thing that we have to do as a company is make our investors happy and make a profit for them. That's just not true, and I don't know what it's going to take for people to learn there really is more to our life, and there is so much more to be gained by having employees who are a lot more comfortable and a lot more happy. So I don't know it is a it is a very frustrating thing. And the reality is that if you have happy employees, then when there's a need, they will step up and do more than you will probably have ever thought they would do. Agreed.   Kim Lengling ** 13:05 Yes, I agree. Yeah, my daughter works for a company that she she works from home one day a week. But they're also very flexible. So if something's wrong or like her daughter's sick or something like that, they will let her work from home on days like that, as long as she has her time in, and she will often go above and beyond, like you just mentioned, because she's given that opportunity and despair, yeah, and I think it makes a huge difference in the work environment. And then also, you know, your mental view of your job, it doesn't feel like it's a grind. My daughter, she loves her job. Loves it. For me, it would be incredibly high stress, but the way they've set it up, where she works, it's, yes, she has stressful days, but it's not sustained stress every single day. You know? What does she do? She does the finance and the HR for the parent company that oversees like four to five different companies.   Michael Hingson ** 14:08 So there can be stress, there can be   Kim Lengling ** 14:13 Yeah, but you know, she's, I often tease her. I'm like, you know, finance, soon as you say numbers, just my brain turns off, yeah, but it's such a different thing, a different atmosphere from, like, work experiences that I've had. So her bosses are younger, so it's like, I'm hoping that maybe it's, maybe it's a different generation that's going to take to have that become the norm, you know. And you had said normal, you know. People said, we have to get back to normal. I don't, you know what is normal. I don't even such a thing as normal, just what you're used to, not normal, you know, right?   Michael Hingson ** 14:52 Well, that's the point. And yeah, and what is normal for me is not necessarily normal for you. But the bottom line is, you. That when something like September 11 happens or the pandemic happens, the fact of the matter is, conditions will never go right back to the way they were before, and shouldn't, because in theory, at least hopefully we learn from what happened. So with the pandemic, there was so much that all of us had the opportunity to learn about how to interact with each other, how to work with companies, and for those who did it, allow people to work at home part of the time, and I can understand and value going into an office to work, but you shouldn't have to do that five days a week and just have that be a grind. That's not what a job should really be about.   Kim Lengling ** 15:48 I agree. Now, unfortunately, just get many, many, many more people to agree with us.   Michael Hingson ** 15:53 They're probably a lot of workers who agree.   Kim Lengling ** 15:57 But yes, you know, I was, I don't know, have you ever listened to the group Alabama? I just love them. They're one of my favorite groups. And the other day, I was driving along, running errands, and the Alabama song, 40 hour week came on, and it's the whole song is about, you know, Pittsburgh steel mill worker. They list, you know, that truck driver, they list all of the different workers that keep America moving. And I just love that song. And I was listening that song, I thought, I thought of you actually thinking of this upcoming conversation. But I love that. So I think folks go listen to that Alabama song, 40 hour week. It's a really good it's a really good song. And if you're from the United States, it just kind of really slams home, like what it should be and what we should be thankful for.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 I think that it's absolutely appropriate for companies to want you somehow to put in a certain amount of time, and that they have goals that that need to be achieved, but you want to have some flexibility in exactly how you deal with it, so long as you get the work done, and if you're really comfortable in doing it, probably more than they ever thought possible, Right?   Kim Lengling ** 17:20 Yeah, that's what you're hired for a 40 hour week job, and then they say they expect 65 to 70 from you, yeah, and I've been in those jobs that's that's tough.   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 The other side of it is the person who gets hired for a 40 hour a week job, but they're given more flexibility, they're given more freedom, and they put in 65 hours. And it shocks the heck out of some bosses. Well, you're putting all this time in, but the job is wonderful. I love   Kim Lengling ** 17:50 it, right? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 17:53 yeah. So it's, it is a, it's an interesting discussion that to have here, but it is also something that we're all going to be dealing with. And I think you're right. It's going to take younger generations to come in and hopefully have learned from the pandemic, and we'll see, because now we have the students who experienced it in high school, and they're going into college, and I'm sure that they're in part, going to demand, and probably in a college environment, they get the ability to be a little bit more flexible in how they learn, because there's more lectures online, there are more things online, so they don't necessarily sit all the time in a classroom. But I think that there's also value in being in an office or being in a classroom at least part of the time.   Kim Lengling ** 18:42 Oh, I agree. I agree, yeah. And I wouldn't ever expect to not be in an office. I mean, if that's if that's where, if it was a local company to me, or something like that, there's a lot of online jobs that you know are full time remote. But because being I think, for me, anyway, I do enjoy, I did enjoy part of the office atmosphere, because you're meeting people. And my job, I was meeting new people almost every day in sales, marketing. So that part, you know, that I really enjoyed, you know, and being out on the road and going to different companies and speaking the other companies and things like that. So that part I enjoyed. So you know that part I would never want to not do. Should I ever be in corporate America again? But yeah, I know it's interesting, interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 19:31 I know that when I started in sales and so on, it was mostly all by phone, and I was selling high tech, very sophisticated, innovative products. But then it got to the point where we were selling a lot to Wall Street, and Wall Street insists that manufacturers actually have a presence in the city. I'm not sure if it's as much that way anymore, but probably it is, because Wall Street people. People tend to get what they want. But the bottom line is that then I moved to the East Coast, and so then I started doing a lot more traveling to visit customers, and I see the value of that as well. It was easy for me on the phone, because I don't have to sit there and look at people anyway.   Michael Hingson ** 20:19 So meeting with some of those people was was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed doing it when we actually had a chance to start meeting. So there's value in that too. Yeah, I agree. So one of the things that you describe yourself as is a lover of all things nature and animals and coffee, how does all that come together in your life? Because, personally, I do tea more than coffee, but that's okay.   Kim Lengling ** 20:51 I'll forgive you for being a tea drinker.   Michael Hingson ** 20:55 Get some spam. You know,   Kim Lengling ** 21:00 that's nature coffee, animals that those are my that's that's kind of like my happy place. That's where I breathe, that's where I am most at ease, outside walking my dog first thing in the morning, that first cup of coffee sitting on the back porch listening to the birds as they wake up. You know, they're heralding a new day, and they're welcoming you to it, and as I sip my coffee and my dog sniffing around the backyard after all the critters that probably came through the night before, you know that's just, that's my happy place right there. So a lot of my thoughts and ideas come on my walks. And you know, yesterday this, I mean, nature is just amazing for me, and it's just magical. And there was this really large cocoon hanging from two small branches for weeks, and to go out into the field with my dog. I would pass it every day. It was always, it's like, right at my eye level. So I would always, you know, tilt my head so I didn't hit it right. And I was often wondering, what is in that? What is going to come out? Yesterday, I was going to take my dog for a walk in the evening, because it's been so amazingly hot here, you have to wait until almost 730 at night to do anything. I'm walking by, and there's the most beautiful moth, like the size of my hand, hanging from that cocoon that had just come. And I thought I have been watching this for weeks, and now look at the magic of nature. It's the most beautiful thing. And I just stood there. I took pictures of it, and I just stood there in awe and wonder over it. And I thought, you know, as I was walking away, and I kept looking back, because it had just come out. It was just starting to flutter its wings a little bit, to air out. And I had never seen anything like that so soon after something, you know. And it was so big size of my hand. And my thought was, you know, okay, wow. Look at the magic of nature right there. And these things that I notice, and I often wonder how much people miss because they're so busy all the time, right, right, you know. And to me, that was just such a big reminder of, there is a lot of beauty in the world. There truly is. It might not seem like it, but there's a lot. There is a lot, and that that was a big reminder to me yesterday, and that's part of why I just that's why that's in my bio nature dogs, animals and   Michael Hingson ** 23:43 coffee. So what kind of dog is Dexter?   Kim Lengling ** 23:47 Dexter? I got him from a local humane society. So he's a rescue. He is a Belgian malnois Mastiff mix with just a smidge of Husky. Wow. Yeah. He's a very unique dog, very unique looking dog. He has a fawn body, a black head, white feet, and one blue eye and one brown eye.   Michael Hingson ** 24:12 We had a cat that and her name was Kelly. Actually it was Kelly Alico, but Kelly short and she had, we are of the opinion that she was two cats that were glued together because one side was white and the other side was and I don't remember whether it was orange or what, but literally, the line went right down her back and under her tummy. Oh, geez. There's a wonderful kitty.   Kim Lengling ** 24:45 I love the unique ones well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:47 And then we had her sister also, who is named smudge, because smudge was run to the litter and a little gray smudge, just a smudge, just a smudge. Cutie pie. Awesome. Now you're talking about nature. We moved to New Jersey in 1996 and my wife Karen, one day, I came home in what had to be, I guess, the end of March, the beginning of April. And she said, I finally really understand what spring is about. I never thought about it. Thought about it much in California, but she said, this morning I looked out and all the blossoms were on the trees, and when I looked out this afternoon, they had all opened to flowers. They sprung Yes, which I thought was very interesting. I've always remembered that Yeah. What a what a cool way to   Kim Lengling ** 25:36 Yeah, yeah, yes. She was right.   Michael Hingson ** 25:41 She was,   Kim Lengling ** 25:44 he was, yeah. And that's, you know, that's I'm I might complain more and more for the older I get about winters of where I'm at, because we experience all four seasons where Ivania, but there is so much beauty in each season, yeah? And for me, that's, it's just such a joy to experience all of them. You know, it might be super cold in the winter, but there's beauty in that, in that really still cold silence and the snow sparkling as the sun hits it, you know, it's just, I mean, there's just, just so many things. And to me, that's, you know, it's almost, it's almost spiritual, those those moments that that you can grasp on to, and for me, I grasp on to them, and then I pull them out later on days that I need them. They're my little nuggets of hope that are put before me that I'm to pull out every once in a while, if I'm having a tough day.   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 I tend to disagree with most people you know who say things like, well, out in California, you don't have four seasons. We do. It isn't necessarily as dramatic, perhaps, but in the winter, it is very cold, and there's, of course, a lot of snow, and the flowers do come out in the spring. They don't spring like they do in the east, perhaps, and it's a lot more gradual. But I really think there are four seasons, at least, from my experience, there are, maybe, from a visual standpoint, it isn't there so   Kim Lengling ** 27:11 much. But I think that's, I think that's what I mean when I say that before, no, I know, I know, yeah, because they're so definitive,   Michael Hingson ** 27:20 they're much more definitive. And I have and I buy that now, now in a place like Hawaii, perhaps, where there isn't snow and it doesn't get as cold in the winter, but even so, seasons are are definable, and so what winter is is still different than what spring and summer in autumn are, fall is and it's just a matter of how you perceive it. But guess the way it goes, everybody's got little bit different observations,   Kim Lengling ** 27:49 what you're used to and where you live. Yeah, because I've never lived in California, I've not experienced those seasons.   Michael Hingson ** 27:59 So yeah, I think, I think it's a it's a fun place to live. I enjoy it not being as cold, although in the winter out here we can get down to 10 degrees or colder, we don't get snow. I'm in a valley, so we don't tend to get the snow that the ski resorts around us get. So as I love to tell people, they hog the snow at the ski resorts, but they're perfectly willing to share their cold air with us. So, you know,   Kim Lengling ** 28:24 yeah, 10 degrees is cold. That's chilly.   Michael Hingson ** 28:28 Yeah, this get pretty cold, but that's okay. I have a house that is well insulated, so it stays pretty warm in the winter, and it's easy to keep it, keep it hot. And in the summer it is, it is pretty cool. It stays pretty cool. In the house. It'll get up if I don't turn the air conditioning on at all, it'll get up to 76 or 77 degrees by the evening time, but starting to feel a little warm, but it's okay. I'll still take the warmer air all year round than we typically find in the East. And I don't, and I don't mind the lack of snow, not because of the snow, but because when it starts to melt and then the nighttime comes, it turns to ice. It's the ice. It's a frustration   Kim Lengling ** 29:17 that's pretty scary sometimes, especially here black ice, yeah, in the wintertime, and the traveling, traveling in winter, that's, I'm kind of thankful that I no longer have to go back and forth to work each day, because, you know, you have those winter days where it's still dark in the morning. It's dark when you leave for work, it's dark when you come home and yes, no. And you know, three feet of snow and you have to come home and shovel. It's a lot. It's a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 29:45 So, you know, the the thing is that I think we all live in different environments and so on, but I also know that if I have to live somewhere else, I can do it. I prefer to stay where I am. I'm fighting where I am, and I. Um, so I will do that as much as possible, but I also understand that sometimes things change and you you deal with it.   Kim Lengling ** 30:07 That's right. I like how you just said, you know you could live a different you like knowing that if you had to live a different place, that you could do it, yeah, that's   Michael Hingson ** 30:17 the big issue, yeah. Well, yeah, for you, you've you've said that you've had experiences dealing with PTSD. How has that shaped your mission to offer? I know this goes back to a book titled nuggets of hope, but for people and the other things that you're able to share because of your PTSD experience,   Kim Lengling ** 30:40 yeah, I found over the years that and all the folks that I've met that have been through some sort of trauma that has left them with, you know, post traumatic stress, that, for myself and I've witnessed it in others, makes you much more empathetic and compassionate to people. Yeah, and for me, it seems, the older I get, the more empathy I have, and because I can relate to or I recognize in others, symptoms or things that they're going through, I can relate to, and maybe, maybe I can offer a little nugget of hope and say, hey, you know I've been there too. I've been in those same shoes, and oh my gosh, it is so hard. And, oh, you're right. You're right. Sometimes it's even hard to breathe. Yep, you're right. Sometimes it stops you in your tracks. Yes, you're right. Sometimes you have three days of no sleep, but you can get through it. That's right, you know? And I, someone actually was my counselor told me a few years ago, said Kim and I was having a bad day. I mean, it was, it was tough. It was one of those days where anxiety was just ruling the day, and it was, it was hard to breathe that day. And she said, Kim, when's the last time you looked in the mirror like truly looked at yourself in the mirror? And I said, I don't do that. She goes, why? And I said, because I don't want to see the mess that I am. And she said, Why? Why go negative? Why do you look at yourself as a mess when you should be looking in that mirror and saying, Wow, Kim, look at you. You have a 100% success rate for getting through the tough stuff. So don't look at yourself as a mess. You look at yourself as a success because you're still standing and you're able to look in the mirror and tell yourself that, and however that is for someone you know, maybe it's not looking in the mirror. Maybe I don't know what that would be for someone you know, whatever it is, remind yourself you're still standing. You're still here. It's another day. It's a brand new day. So that means you have a 100% success rate for getting through the tough stuff. And when she said that, that that flicks a switch in my mind, and I've not forgotten it, and I've shared it with so many other people that have been in tough spots, and then they have told me later, you know, I shared that with someone when they were having a tough day, so I was like, you know, look at all these little nuggets of hope that we can toss out to people. And you might be a nugget of hope and not even realize it like your show, your show, Michael, could be nuggets of hope for 1000s of people that listen to it way in the future. So, I mean, you know, how amazing to think of it that way, that we can in our own way, just as that one person you know, someone says, you know, well, you're just one person. You can't change the world. No, you're right. I can't, but I could change one person's world. I can. I can be a positive nugget of hope in my own small slice of the world. And if we can do that, why wouldn't we?   Michael Hingson ** 33:55 Geez, and you never know what change that might bring to the whole world, which is what you just said, Yeah. And the reality is, you shouldn't do it to change the world. You should do it to do what's right for you, but that is what people see. I think ultimately, most people will sense when you're doing something, especially when you're doing it for the right reason. You're not doing it just to try to get vision. To get visible or publicity or whatever. And so I think when people see that, they empathize with it. And so you're right now, you never know when you're a nugget of hope.   Kim Lengling ** 34:34 That's right. Let's, let's just keep on making ripples.   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 Huh? Well, you know, it's similar, and I've thought and I've thought about it and talked about it on the podcast a few times. I used to always say when I wanted to to deal with something, and I was thinking about me internally, I'm going to deal with this, because I'm my own worst critic, and only in the last couple of years. Have I realized wrong thing to say I'm my own best teacher, which is a much more positive and relevant thing. And if you use that every time you might have used I'm my own worst critic, but you'd rather say I'm my own best teacher, look at the difference and the positive impact that mentally immediately has on you, much less however else you deal with it?   Kim Lengling ** 35:22 Oh, that is awesome. Michael, you should make that into a coffee cup.   Michael Hingson ** 35:28 Oh, well, or a teacup, but I'll have to worry.   Kim Lengling ** 35:35 Oh, I love that though. See, it's just shifting a couple words and how that can change your mindset and how you look at it exactly. Amazing. I love that. Thanks for sharing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:46 Well, you're welcome, and you can, you can use it. It's fair. I think I will perfect. Go ahead,   Kim Lengling ** 35:53 yeah, we've got see. That was an awesome nugget. So you're tossing it to me and I'm going to toss it elsewhere. Yeah, there you go. See we can. And you're in California and I'm in Pennsylvania, we have literally, just like criss crossed across the entire country.   Michael Hingson ** 36:08 Not gonna hope. We've blanketed the country, that's right, with hope. So you wrote, you've written a number of anthologies, and I guess the latest one is paw prints on the kitchen floor, which is the creative title, but what, what do you learn? And what do animals help you learn and and grow from that?   Kim Lengling ** 36:31 Gosh, you know, it's so fun. It was so fun putting that book together. There's, you know, about 20 different co authors in there, each with a chapter sharing a story of their animal on how they enrich their life in some way. And for me, oh my gosh. You know, some of the stories just bring you the tears. They make you laugh out loud. And each person writes so differently, it was just but for me, the dogs in my life that I've had in my life, they have taught me patience, empathy. They've also taught me to slow down at times, you know, I'll be I've caught myself rushing my dog. I'm like, come on, extra, come on. You've been sniffing that one blade of grass for like, two and a half minutes. Let's go. And then I realized, and then he doesn't listen to me, keeps on sniffing. And I'm like, You know what? Why am I? Why am I rushing him? You know, maybe I should just sit down and, you know, take in a couple deep breaths. So they've taught me to slow down and to enjoy the little things more, to see the world. You know, it's something, it's like, sometimes feels like, yeah, just get down on the ground and see the world from their point of view. You know? And I don't know, I we can learn an awful lot from animals, as I'm sure you are aware.   Michael Hingson ** 38:00 Well, last August, we published live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea was to try to start to teach people how they can learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them. And the reality is, there's so much of that that we can learn from dogs and other animals, but specifically for me, guide dogs and in really studying fear,   Michael Hingson ** 38:33 so many lessons like, why do people fear so much? Well, because all we do is spend all day going well, what if this happens, or we are worried about every single thing that comes along, and we don't have control over, like over 90% of the things that come along, but yet we we try to, and we become afraid because of that. And rather than stepping back and going, Wait a minute, I don't have any influence over that. Okay, I'll be aware of it, but there's nothing I can do about it, so I'm not going to worry about it, you know. And you know, for example, using probably the most visible one today is, is our elected leaders. We've got people who are on both sides of supporting or not supporting the president and so on. But the reality is, the President is going to do what the President's going to do, and we and I'm not going to say what's good and not good about that, but the president's going to do what the President's going to do. What good does it do us to worry about all that all day, every day. Now I want to be aware of it, so I do watch the news, but I want awareness not being around to just go ape over everything that happens. And I learned that from working with and being involved with dogs. Dogs don't worry about that they live in. The moment they worry about what they have to deal with, and that's all they have to worry about. So they tend not to fear. They tend not to do well. They don't do what if and their their lives are much better and more peaceful. And we could learn so much from that, if we would, but do it.   Kim Lengling ** 40:17 Yes, yes, that's right. And you mentioned you used the word control at one point, because we don't have control over so much, even we like to think we do, yeah and we don't. Yeah, we don't at all. And once you realize that and actually accept that, I think for me anyway, it was easier to let fears go, because it's like, you know, I don't have control over really anything.   Michael Hingson ** 40:48 You know, control   Kim Lengling ** 40:50 is going to happen. I mean, yeah, some things, but not the big things. Or, like you said, to go ape over certain things we have no control over, so much, and you know, there's no reason to argue, fight, rip each other apart over things that literally you you personally have no control over.   Michael Hingson ** 41:10 The other part about that, though, is not while not having control, if we would, but talk about things and listen to other people and listen to their viewpoints. You never know what you might learn. Necessarily mean you're going to change your position, but you never know what you're going   Kim Lengling ** 41:28 to learn. That is right, and we don't have to agree. No, it's okay to disagree and still like each other.   Michael Hingson ** 41:36 Yeah, and it's and there's nothing wrong with that, no, but we live in such a society today, everyone wants to control everything, and if you don't do it just the way I do it, you're wrong. And that's just not true.   Kim Lengling ** 41:50 Yeah, and that's not the way it's supposed to be. You know, that's not how we're supposed to be living, not supposed to be living in anger and fear and arguments and, you know, darkness, that's just, it's just not the way it's supposed to be folks I don't know. So I work very hard to not live in an atmosphere or let myself be sucked into an atmosphere like that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 Yeah, I will, I will avoid those kinds of situations simply because there's no, there's no opportunity to really discuss and learn. If people want to talk, I love to talk, and I love to learn. And if, if people disagree with me, that's perfectly okay. My job is not to get angry about it. But I might say, Why do you have that position? Tell me more. Now, I've had some people where I know that their political views are opposite of mine, and if I ask them, Why do you believe this? For example, they won't even talk about it, because they just say, you know I'm right. And if you're asking, then you clearly don't have the same opinion I do, and we're not going to talk about   Kim Lengling ** 43:04 it. Yeah, I I steer clear of those types of conversations as well. When you know, when you know, going in, it'll go nowhere, but negative. Yeah, yeah, that's why, you know, I take a lot of walks with my dog.   Michael Hingson ** 43:23 Sometimes you can have those conversations, and that is so wonderful, because you never know what you might learn exactly. Doesn't necessarily mean you're going to change your opinion, but you get insights that you wouldn't get any other way. Communication is so important.   Kim Lengling ** 43:39 Yes, it is respectful, communicating, yes, I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 Yeah. Well, your latest book, nuggets of hope, cultivating kindness, that's that's a creative title, and so on. And I think that's really kind of cool. Can you tell us a story that particularly moved you that came out of that book, yeah, since we're authors and telling stories, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 44:08 that's right, and I'm trying to remember if I shared this one on the last time I was with you or not, but I'll share a different one years ago. I'm a veteran, and I support veterans that struggle, that are in through my veteran post, we have, it's called Project support our troops. We send monthly boxes to those that are deployed around the globe. And we also help veterans in need in our local area as we're able to, and many of those have been, you know, through traumatic experiences or they live with PTSD. There was one young man years ago who reached out and called me and said, Hey, I need help. And I said, Okay, what can we help you with? And he gave me a little bit of his situation, and I said, All right, this is going to take me a minute. Or two to get some things rounded up. But yes, I think we can help you, and I want to help you. And then he called me back and said, You know what? No, forget about it. Forget I called you. I don't need help. I'm fine. And I said, I don't agree with you. I think you're fibbing. And it took a while, but he finally agreed to meet and not knowing him, and I'm, you know, I'm a single person. So I took a friend, a male friend, with me when I went to meet him at this at his home. And his home was more of a hovel than anything, and it was, it was a hovel. It was really unlivable. And I said, Where are you Where are you sleeping? And he pointed at a spot on the floor. And I said, well, and he was a Marine. I said, Well, marine, you're not going to sleep on the floor on my watch. And he says, Ma'am, I've slept in much worse places. I said, I am sure you have, but you're not going to sleep on the floor on my watch. We will get you a bed. What else do you need? And he wouldn't tell me, and I said, Can you show me through your home? And he said, I prefer not to. And I said, I can't help you unless I know what you need. And he took me through his home, and each room was worse than the last, falling apart, no water. It was pretty rough. And he was just a young man just doing the best he could to hang on, and I reached out to people that I knew, that I had met over the years, of doing things that we do through our post and to make a longer story shorter. It turns out a contractor saw and heard what I was trying to do, what we were trying to do for this young man. And he contacted me, and he said, If this young Marine agrees to it, take me out there, let me, let me take a look at his home, and we'll see what we can do. And he went in, took a look, and the young Marine was like, you know, what? If you could just fix this living room floor, that would be great. That's all I need, just if my living room floor because it was about to fall in. So if you could just fix that. And the contractor literally came in, and this brings me to tears. Came in room to room, and redid his whole home. I mean, with a bathroom, bedroom, living room, kitchen, I was able to get him furniture, I was able to get him a new appliances. I was able to get him a bed. We were able to get him a car, because he only had a motorcycle and winter was coming, and we know where I live. Yes, he's like, No, I'll be I'll be fine. I'm like, you cannot drive a motorcycle in the winter to work. You'll lose your job. And he had lost his job before because of that, so he was really, really in a tough spot. But people came together. Total strangers came together when I tossed out that call, and everyone came and brought in nuggets of hope, I mean, and for this young Marine, who was struggling so terribly in many ways, he now had a livable home that was much nicer than he even could imagine. He had a used car that a car sales, car dealership. They had an older used car, but it was in great condition. And they said, Hey, this will last him for a couple years, if he maintains it well, at least it'll get him by, you know. And then I had another person reach out and said, Hey, my mom would like to donate six months of insurance for this young marines car in honor of my dad, who was Marine. So all these people were tossing out these nuggets of Hope completely changed this young marines life completely around I kept in touch with them for years after and then I ran into him at a convenience store one day I was getting gas, and he said, Miss Kim. And I said, Oh my goodness. How are you? And he goes, I'm doing really, really well. You have no idea how good I'm doing, and I need to thank you, because you were my angel coming, coming to me when I needed it most. He goes, I got a full time job. I got accustomed to my son. I just bought a new house. I have a brand new car, and I just looked at him. I started crying because I met him at his lowest point, yeah, but so many of us came together and tossed out a nugget of hope and just shared kindness and love and understanding.   Michael Hingson ** 49:32 Was, was this all because of something like PTSD in his case?   Kim Lengling ** 49:37 Yes, yeah. He was struggling mentally, physically, because mental, mental has a plays a big part on your physical as well. You know, he was going through a divorce. He lost custody of his son. He was probably going to lose his job, his house was falling apart. And then, you know, for. Five or six years later, because I honestly almost didn't recognize him physically when I saw him, and I was just, I was thinking, Oh my gosh. So that was years later. So just think of what those little nuggets of hope that you toss out today, the long, lasting effects that they have. That's why I wrote this book. And it's just little stories, you know, little stories. That's such a huge story, but stories like that that are shared in there, along with just, you know, practical things on just, you know how to be kind. You can do it. You know, it doesn't cost a dime to be kind.   Michael Hingson ** 50:35 How did writing that book affect you, and how does it affect you? And I'll tell you why. Well, let me, let you answer, and then I'll tell you why I asked.   Kim Lengling ** 50:45 Well, I too live with PTSD, and when I help others, and when I am able to be a small spark of light or a nugget of hope to others that, in turn, helps me. And because sometimes, for me, anyway, I can, I call it a weight PTSD, sometimes can be really heavy on some days. And on those days, I found that if I reach out and help others, or do something to help others, do something positive, it takes some of that weight off. So it's a healing thing for me. And putting this book together and writing it, and thinking back over some of the things you know that happened as I was right. There were tears involved. I laughed, and then I at the end, I was just so very thankful, so very thankful that I was able to be in that spot, and that God put me where I was supposed to be in all this different circumstances to be a nugget of hope for someone so it was healing and also empowering, and gave me, you know, the inspiration to just keep on, keep on keeping on, keep on doing what I'm doing.   Michael Hingson ** 51:52 I asked because I kind of figured that would be your your answer. But I asked because I know, in my case, after September 11, people said, you need counseling and all that sort of stuff. But I started getting phone calls from reporters and my wife and I decided that I would would take those interview calls and people would come to our home, and that was therapy, because I got asked virtually any question that you could imagine regarding September 11 and me and so on, some very dumb questions that still happen today, but some really incredibly excellent, intuitive and concerning questions and having to learn to answer all of those because I put myself in the position where I needed to answer the questions was probably the best thing that I could do. So in your case, writing about it had to be helpful and pretty cathartic for you as well.   Kim Lengling ** 53:01 Yeah, it is amazing that now, did you, I guess, have a question for you. Yes, I do. Did you? Did you ever, I know that you said you and your wife decided yes, you're going to take those phone calls, you're going to take those interviews. But prior to that, did you find yourself maybe trying to stuff some of that stuff down.   Michael Hingson ** 53:23 I never did. So the story is that the next day, I contacted Guide Dogs for the Blind, where I've gotten all of my dogs, and among other things, I spoke to Joe and Ritter, who was our director of public information at the time, and she wanted to write a story, and I wasn't really thinking very straight. I that's what I say. But it didn't really matter. I said, Sure, go ahead. And she said, Well, I'll bet you'll also get a chance to be on TV. What television show do you want to be on first so I sort of flippantly said, Larry King lives, and on the 14th of September, we had the first of five interviews on Larry King Live. So the the first interview was actually from a major magazine the day before Larry King, I won't mention the name, and I'll and you'll see why in a moment, but the media had already gotten the story because Joanne wrote it and went out, and somebody called and they said they wanted to talk with me, and then near the end, they said, I want to come and take a picture of you wearing the suit that you wore on September 11. And I said, why? Well, that's all dirty and all that. And I said, No, we sent it to the cleaners already. Now we hadn't sent it to the cleaners, although we did, but I just thought that was a pretty obnoxious thing to say it was insensitive to say, I want you in the suit that you wore. I want to show you it was this dirty, scruffy guy when that really wasn't the kind of image that I wanted to project, because I was wow point where it's it's hard. Hope it's positiveness, and just doesn't make sense to do. So that was   Kim Lengling ** 55:05 the first that's really wow. That just amazes me that someone asked you to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 55:11 Yeah, wow. But, you know, had a lot of a lot of interviews and a lot of conversations with people ever since, and now it's kind of fun every so often, and I can't remember the last one, but every so often I'll get a question I've not heard before, but it doesn't happen very often anymore. But by the same token, I look for those questions because it shows that somebody's really thinking. I always hear what you didn't know happened because you couldn't see it. And that is so fun to deal with, because my response is always the same. The last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fictitious, and the building was struck 18 floor above us on the other side. Nobody saw it where I was. But people want to rationalize, that's okay.   Kim Lengling ** 55:58 Yeah, that's okay.   Michael Hingson ** 56:02 So it makes   Kim Lengling ** 56:04 the world go round. You know, you have everybody that looks at the world in a different viewpoint.   Michael Hingson ** 56:07 So there, yeah, and sometimes we get to help people reshape it, or we work anyway. That's right. So faith is a big part of your life, isn't it?   Kim Lengling ** 56:16 It is, it is, I think that's, um, that's something. It wasn't always a part of my life. I was probably my mid 30s that I came to have faith, and since then, it has been a big part of my life. And on those tough days when the weight feels heavy and I'm out there walking with my dog more than normal, that is what I turn to, and I know, you know, it doesn't That's my belief. You know, everybody has their own beliefs, but for me, if I I've got God to talk to, and that makes a huge difference in in my life, and helps to settle me on those days that are then my that my soul feels a little bit unsettled. Prayer, being outside, being with my dog, that's what settles me, settles my soul, and I can just take a deep breath and keep on, keeping on.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 I was talking with someone yesterday on a podcast episode that will be coming out and and it'll be probably one or two before yours. But he had an interesting thing to say, which I absolutely buy and I've believed for a long time, and that was we were talking about prayer, and he said the biggest problem with people in prayer is they're always telling God what they need, and they never listen to get the real answer, rather than recognizing God really knows what you want. And yeah, you might, we might say it, but then the real question is, do you ever slow down and listen to your inner voice, which is God that will tell you the answer to whatever it is that you're perplexed about? I thought that was very interesting for him to observe that. And I, I've believed that for a long time.   Kim Lengling ** 58:04 I believe the same as well for a very long time. That's why I'm always saying you got to slow down. You just got to slow down and take a look, you know, and listen, there's a reason that be still. Those two words are so powerful to Christians. Be still so and sometimes it's hard. I know that we're human, we're, you know, none of us, none of us are perfect. We are going to stumble, you know, especially if you're, you know, in your faith or your Christian walk, we're going to stumble because we're human, we're normal. But try and get off that, that hamster wheel, and slow down, because you're missing out on a lot. You're missing out on so much, and you're going to get, you know, Lord willing, you'll get to the end of your life, your later years, and you want to be able to look back fondly and smile, and not with, gosh, I wish I would have,   Michael Hingson ** 59:02 yeah, yeah. And it's so true. And the reality is that you do miss so much by just running around on the hamster wheel rather than slowing down, taking time to think about what happened today and even the good stuff. Could I have made it better? Could I have done anything? But when you have the stuff that didn't go well, what am I afraid of? What? What kind of fear is this causing? And those are things that we talk about and live like a guide dog, because those are all part of we need to learn to address and deal with in order to discover how better to control fear. And we can do that,   Kim Lengling ** 59:39 yes and be thankful, even for those, Mm, hmm, even for the crappy days. Yeah, yeah, thank you for even third crappy days, because you still, you got another day,   Michael Hingson ** 59:50 but still take the time on the crappy days to learn exactly right? And most people won't do that, and that's that is a. Fortunate, because those are the best learning experiences if you listen to hear what you're being told about, how to make sure that crappy day never happens again.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:11 I agree. Look at us. Michael, see still, we're still solving the world problems here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 Yeah, we're blindly blanketing the country with nuggets, right? Well, I don't want to bury everybody, so I'm gonna thank you for being here. It's been a whole hour already. How can people reach out to you?   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:33 Best way is just go through my website, which is Kim Lang, author.com you can see what I'm doing, the books that are out there, what's coming up. You can meet Dexter, because he is my office manager, and he actually he receives all the emails and then lets me know what's happening and who I need to reach out to. So he keeps me on track and keeps me on my toes. But yeah. Kim Lengling, author.com, you can find   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 lending and spelled   Kim Lengling ** 1:01:00 L, E N, G, l, I N, G,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 there you go, just like it sounds. That's right. Well, and reach out to Dexter. And one of these days, well, we were talking before we started the podcast. I'm going to be in Pennsylvania at the beginning of October, and I hope maybe we'll get to meet Dexter. Wouldn't that be awesome? We'll let Dexter meet Alamo.   Kim Lengling ** 1:01:25 There we go. Yeah. Why not? By golly works for me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33 Well, thank you for being here and again, I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this. I hope you've gotten some things out of it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 It's it's fun talking to Kim. We'll have to do it again. And I know that I was on let fear bounce, and I'm going to go back on that again. So go off and check out her podcast, let fear bounce and listen to it. Lots to learn there, and we'll hopefully contribute a few nuggets along the way as well, but I want to thank you all for for all that you do to support us. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening and please, if you would know anybody else who want to be a guest, or who you think ought to be a guest, let us know. Introduce us. We would appreciate it, and give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us so again though. Kim, thanks very much. This has been fun again.   Kim Lengling ** 1:02:25 Yes, it has. Thank you very much. Been a true blessing. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:33 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

On this episode, my guest is Stephen Jenkinson, culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. Stephen is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony.He is the author of several influential books, including Money and the Soul's Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), and Reckoning (2022), co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson. His most recent book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work, was released in August 2025. He is also involved in the musical project Nights of Grief & Mystery with singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins, which has toured across North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.Show Notes:* The Bone House of the Orphan Wisdom Enterprise* Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work* The Wedding Industry* Romantic Sameness and Psychic Withering* The Two Tribes* The Roots of Hospitality* The Pompous Ending of Hospitality* Debt, And the Estrangement of the Stranger* More Than Human Hospitality* The Alchemy of the Orphan Wisdom SchoolHomework:Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work | PurchaseOrphan WisdomThe Scriptorium: Echoes of an Orphan WisdomTranscription:Chris: This is an interview that I've been wondering about for a long time in part, because Stephen was the first person I ever interviewed for the End of Tourism Podcast. In Oaxaca, Mexico, where I live Stephen and Natalie were visiting and were incredibly, incredibly generous. Stephen, in offering his voice as a way to raise up my questions to a level that deserve to be contended with.We spoke for about two and a half hours, if I remember correctly. And there was a lot in what you spoke to towards the second half of the interview that I think we're the first kind of iterations of the Matrimony book.We spoke a little bit about the stranger and trade, and it was kind of startling as someone trying to offer their first interview and suddenly hearing something [00:01:00] that I'd never heard before from Stephen. Right. And so it was quite impressive. And I'm grateful to be here now with y'all and to get to wonder about this a little more deeply with you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm. Hmm.Chris: This is also a special occasion for the fact that for the first time in the history of the podcast, we have a live audience among us today. Strange doings. Some scholars and some stewards and caretakers of the Orphan Wisdom enterprise. So, thank you all as well for coming tonight and being willing to listen and put your ears to this.And so to begin, Stephen, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let those who will be listening to this recording later on know where we're gathered in tonight?Stephen: Well, we're in... what's the name of this township?Nathalie: North Algona.Stephen: North Algona township on the borders, an eastern gate [00:02:00] of Algonquin Park. Strangely named place, given the fact that they were the first casualties of the park being established. And we're in a place that never should have been cleared - my farm. It should never have been cleared of the talls, the white pines that were here, but the admiralty was in need back in the day. And that's what happened there. And we're in a place that the Irish immigrants who came here after the famine called "Tramore," which more or less means "good-frigging luck farming."It doesn't technically mean that, but it absolutely means that. It actually means "sandy shore," which about covers the joint, and it's the only thing that covers the joint - would be sand. You have to import clay. Now, that's a joke in many farming places in the world, but if we wanted any clay, we'd have to bring it in and pay for the privilege.And the farm has been in [00:03:00] my, my responsibility for about 25 years now, pretty close to that. And the sheep, or those of them left because the coyotes have been around for the first time in their casualty-making way... They're just out here, I'm facing the field where they're milling around.And it's the very, very beginnings of the long cooling into cold, into frigid, which is our lot in this northern part of the hemisphere, even though it's still August, but it's clear that things have changed. And then, we're on a top of a little hill, which was the first place that I think that we may have convened a School here.It was a tipi, which is really worked very well considering we didn't live here, so we could put it up and put it down in the same weekend. [00:04:00] And right on this very hill, we were, in the early days, and we've replaced that tipi with another kind of wooden structure. A lot more wood in this one.This has been known as "The Teaching Hall" or "The Great Hall," or "The Hall" or "The Money Pit, as it was known for a little while, but it actually worked out pretty well. And it was I mean, people who've come from Scandinavia are knocked out by the kind of old-style, old-world visitation that the place seems to be to them.And I'd never really been before I had the idea what this should look like, but I just went from a kind of ancestral memory that was knocking about, which is a little different than your preferences, you know. You have different kinds of preferences you pass through stylistically through your life, but the ones that lay claim to you are the ones that are not interested in your [00:05:00] preferences. They're interested in your kind of inheritance and your lineage.So I'm more or less from the northern climes of Northern Europe, and so the place looks that way and I was lucky enough to still have my carving tools from the old days. And I've carved most of the beams and most of the posts that keep the place upright with a sort of sequence of beasts and dragons and ne'er-do-wells and very, very few humans, I think two, maybe, in the whole joint. Something like that. And then, mostly what festoons a deeply running human life is depicted here. And there's all kinds of stories, which I've never really sat down and spoken to at great length with anybody, but they're here.And I do deeply favour the idea that one day [00:06:00] somebody will stumble into this field, and I suppose, upon the remains of where we sit right now, and wonder "What the hell got into somebody?" That they made this mountain of timber moldering away, and that for a while what must have been, and when they finally find the footprint of, you know, its original dimensions and sort of do the wild math and what must have been going on in this sandy field, a million miles in away from its home.And wherever I am at that time, I'll be wondering the same thing.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: "What went on there?" Even though I was here for almost all of it. So, this was the home of the Orphan Wisdom School for more than a decade and still is the home of the Orphan Wisdom School, even if it's in advance, or in retreat [00:07:00] or in its doldrums. We'll see.And many things besides, we've had weddings in here, which is wherein I discovered "old-order matrimony," as I've come to call it, was having its way with me in the same way that the design of the place did. And it's also a grainery for our storage of corn. Keep it up off the ground and out of the hands of the varmints, you know, for a while.Well that's the beginning.Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Thank you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: You were mentioning the tipi where the school began. I remember sleeping in there the first time I came here. Never would I have thought for a million years that I'd be sitting here with you.Stephen: It's wild, isn't it?Chris: 12 years later.?: Yeah.Chris: And so next, I'd like to do my best in part over the course of the next perhaps hour or two to congratulate you on the release of [00:08:00] your new book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.Stephen: Thank you.Chris: Mm-hmm. I'm grateful to say like many others that I've received a copy and have lent my eyes to your good words, and what is really an incredible achievement.For those who haven't had a chance to lay their eyes on it just yet, I'm wondering if you could let us in on why you wrote a book about matrimony in our time and where it stands a week out from its publication.Stephen: Well, maybe the answer begins with the question, "why did you write a book, having done so before?" And you would imagine that the stuff that goes into writing a book, you'd think that the author has hopes for some kind of redemptive, redeeming outcome, some kind of superlative that drops out the back end of the enterprise.And you know, this is [00:09:00] the seventh I've written. And I would have to say that's not really how it goes, and you don't really know what becomes of what you've written, even with the kind people who do respond, and the odd non-monetary prize that comes your way, which Die Wise gamed that.But I suppose, I wrote, at all partly to see what was there. You know, I had done these weddings and I was a little bit loathe to let go, to let the weddings turn entirely into something historical, something that was past, even though I probably sensed pretty clearly that I was at the end of my willingness to subject myself to the slings and arrows that came along with the enterprise, but it's a sweet sorrow, or there's a [00:10:00] wonder that goes along with the tangle of it all. And so, I wrote to find out what happened, as strange as that might sound to you. You can say, "well, you were there, you kind of knew what happened." But yes, I was witness to the thing, but there's the act of writing a book gives you the opportunity to sort of wonder in three-dimensions and well, the other thing I should say is I was naive and figured that the outfit who had published the, more or less prior two books to this one, would kind of inevitably be drawn to the fact that same guy. Basically, same voice, new articulation. And I was dumbfounded to find out that they weren't. And so, it's sort of smarted, you know?And I think what I did was I just set the whole [00:11:00] enterprise aside, partly to contend with the the depths of the disappointment in that regard, and also not wanting to get into the terrible fray of having to parse or paraphrase the book in some kind of elevator pitch-style to see if anybody else wanted to look at it. You know, such as my touchy sense of nobility sometimes, you know, that I just rather not be involved in the snarl of the marketplace any longer.So, I withdrew and I just set it aside but it wasn't that content to be set, set aside. And you know, to the book's credit, it bothered me every once in a while. It wasn't a book at the point where I was actually trying to engineer it, you know, and, and give it some kind of structure. I had piles of paper on the floor representing the allegation of chapters, trying to figure out what the relationship was [00:12:00] between any of these things.What conceivably should come before what. What the names of any of these things might be. Did they have an identity? Was I just imposing it? And all of that stuff I was going through at the same time as I was contending with a kind of reversal in fortune, personally. And so in part, it was a bit of a life raft to give me something to work on that I wouldn't have to research or dig around in the backyard for it and give me some sort of self-administered occupation for a while.Finally, I think there's a parallel with the Die Wise book, in that when it came to Die Wise, I came up with what I came up with largely because, in their absolute darkest, most unpromising hours, an awful lot of dying people, all of whom are dead now, [00:13:00] let me in on some sort of breach in the, the house of their lives.And I did feel that I had some obligation to them long-term, and that part of that obligation turned into writing Die Wise and touring and talking about that stuff for years and years, and making a real fuss as if I'd met them all, as if what happened is really true. Not just factually accurate, but deeply, abidingly, mandatorily true.So, although it may be the situation doesn't sound as extreme, but the truth is, when a number of younger - than me - people came to me and asked me to do their weddings, I, over the kind of medium-term thereafter, felt a not dissimilar obligation that the events that ensued from all of that not [00:14:00] be entrusted entirely to those relatively few people who attended. You know, you can call them "an audience," although I hope I changed that. Or you could call them "witnesses," which I hope I made them that.And see to it that there could be, not the authorized or official version of what happened, but to the view from here, so to speak, which is, as I sit where I am in the hall right now, I can look at the spot where I conducted much of this when I wasn't sacheting up and down the middle aisle where the trestle tables now are.And I wanted to give a kind of concerted voice to that enterprise. And I say "concerted voice" to give you a feel for the fact that I don't think this is a really an artifact. It's not a record. It's a exhortation that employs the things that happened to suggest that even though it is the way it is [00:15:00] ritually, impoverished as it is in our time and place, it has been otherwise within recoverable time and history. It has.And if that's true, and it is, then it seems to me at least is true that it could be otherwise again. And so, I made a fuss and I made a case based on that conviction.There's probably other reasons I can't think of right now. Oh, being not 25 anymore, and not having that many more books in me, the kind of wear and tear on your psyche of imposing order on the ramble, which is your recollection, which has only so many visitations available in it. Right? You can only do that so many times, I think. And I'm not a born writing person, you know, I come to it maniacally when I [00:16:00] do, and then when it's done, I don't linger over it so much.So then, when it's time to talk about it, I actually have to have a look, because the act of writing it is not the act of reading it. The act of writing is a huge delivery and deliverance at the same time. It's a huge gestation. And you can't do that to yourself, you know, over and over again, but you can take some chances, and look the thing in the eye. So, and I think some people who are there, they're kind of well-intended amongst them, will recognize themselves in the details of the book, beyond "this is what happened and so on." You know, they'll recognize themselves in the advocacy that's there, and the exhortations that are there, and the [00:17:00] case-making that I made and, and probably the praying because there's a good degree of prayerfulness in there, too.That's why.Chris: Thank you. bless this new one in the world. And what's the sense for you?Stephen: Oh, yes.Chris: It being a one-week old newborn. How's that landing in your days?Stephen: Well, it's still damp, you know. It's still squeaky, squeaky and damp. It's walking around like a newborn primate, you know, kind of swaying in the breeze and listening to port or to starboard according to whatever's going on.I don't know that it's so very self-conscious in the best sense of that term, yet. Even though I recorded the audio version, I don't think [00:18:00] it's my voice is found every nook and cranny at this point, yet. So, it's kind of new. It's not "news," but it is new to me, you know, and it's very early in terms of anybody responding to it.I mean, nobody around me has really taken me aside and say, "look, now I want to tell you about this book you wrote." It hasn't happened, and we'll see if it does, but I've done a few events on the other side of the ocean and hear so far, very few, maybe handful of interviews. And those are wonderful opportunities to hear something of what you came up with mismanaged by others, you know, misapprehend, you could say by others.No problem. I mean, it's absolutely no problem. And if you don't want that to happen, don't talk, don't write anything down. So, I don't mind a bit, you know, and the chances are very good that it'll turn into things I didn't have in mind [00:19:00] as people take it up, and regard their own weddings and marriages and plans and schemes and fears and, you know, family mishigas and all the rest of it through this particular lens, you know. They may pick up a pen or a computer (it's an odd expression, "pick up a computer"), and be in touch with me and let me know. "Yeah, that was, we tried it" or whatever they're going to do, because, I mean, maybe Die Wise provided a bit of an inkling of how one might be able to proceed otherwise in their dying time or in their families or their loved ones dying time.This is the book that most readily lends itself to people translating into something they could actually do, without a huge kind of psychic revolution or revolt stirring in them, at least not initially. This is as close as I come, probably, to writing a sequence of things [00:20:00] that could be considered "add-ons" to what people are already thinking about, that I don't force everybody else outta the house in order to make room for the ideas that are in the book. That may happen, anyway, but it wasn't really the intent. The intent was to say, you know, we are in those days when we're insanely preoccupied with the notion of a special event. We are on the receiving end of a considerable number of shards showing up without any notion really about what these shards remember or are memories of. And that's the principle contention I think that runs down the spine of the book, is that when we undertake matrimony, however indelicately, however by rote, you know, however mindlessly we may do it, [00:21:00] inadvertently, we call upon those shards nonetheless.And they're pretty unspectacular if you don't think about them very deeply, like the rice or confetti, like the aisle, like the procession up the aisle, like the giving away of someone, like the seating arrangement, like the spectacle seating arrangement rather than the ritual seating arrangement.And I mean, there's a fistful of them. And they're around and scholars aside maybe, nobody knows why they do them. Everybody just knows, "this is what a wedding is," but nobody knows why. And because nobody knows why, nobody really seems to know what a wedding is for, although they do proceed like they would know a wedding if they saw one. So, I make this a question to be really wondered about, and the shards are a way in. They're the kind of [00:22:00] breadcrumb trail through the forest. They're the little bits of broken something, which if you begin to handle just three or four of them, and kind of fit them together, and find something of the original shape and inflection of the original vessel, kind of enunciates, begins to murmur in your hands, and from it you can begin to infer some three-dimensionality to the original shape. And from the sense of the shape, you get a set sense of contour, and from the sense of contour, you get a sense of scale or size. And from that you get a sense of purpose, or function, or design. And from that you get a sense of some kind of serious magisterial insight into some of the fundament of human being that was manifest in the "old-order matrimony," [00:23:00] as I came to call it.So, who wouldn't wanna read that book?Chris: Mm-hmm.Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Stephen. Yeah. It reminds me, just before coming up here, maybe two weeks ago, I was in attending a wedding. And there was a host or mc, and initially just given what I was hearing over the microphone, it was hard to tell if he was hired or family or friends. And it turned out he was, in fact, a friend of the groom. And throughout the night he proceeded to take up that role as a kind of comedian.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: This was the idea, I guess. Mm-hmm. And he was buzzing and mumbling and swearing into the microphone, [00:24:00] and then finally minimizing the only remnant of traditional culture that showed up in the wedding. And his thing was, okay, so when can we get to the part where it's boom, boom, boom, right. And shot, shot, shot, whatever.Stephen: Right.Chris: There was so much that came up in my memories in part because I worked about a decade in Toronto in the wedding industry.Mm-hmm. Hospitality industry. Maybe a contradiction in terms, there. And there was one moment that really kind of summed it up. I kept coming back to this reading the book because it was everything that you wrote seemed to not only antithetical to this moment, but also an antidote.Anyways, it was in North Toronto and the [00:25:00] owner of the venue - it was a kind of movie theatre turned event venue - and there was a couple who was eventually going to get married there. They came in to do their tasting menu to see what they wanted to put on the menu for the dinner, for their wedding.And the owner was kind of this mafioso type. And he comes in and he sees them and he walks over and he says, "so, you're gonna get married at my wedding factory."Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: In all sincerity.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: Right.Without skipping a beat. Could you imagine?Stephen: Yeah.I could. I sure could.Chris: Yeah. Yeah.Stephen: I mean, don't forget, if these people weren't doing what the people wanted, they'd be outta business.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: No, that's the thing. This is aiding and abetting. This is sleeping with the enemy, stylistically-speaking. [00:26:00] The fact that people "settle" (that's the term I would use for it), settle for this, the idea being that this somehow constitutes the most honest and authentic through line available to us is just jaw dropping. When you consider what allegedly this thing is supposed to be for. I mean, maybe we'll get into this, but I'll just leave this as a question for now. What is that moment allegedly doing?Not, what are the people in it allegedly doing? The moment itself, what is it? How is it different from us sitting here now talking about it? And how is it different from the gory frigging jet-fuelled aftermath of excess. And how's it different from the cursing alleged master of ceremonies? How can you [00:27:00] tell none of those things belong to this thing?And why do you have such a hard time imagining what doesAudience: Hmm mmChris: Well that leads me to my next question.Stephen: Ah, you're welcome.Chris: So, I've pulled a number of quotes from the book to read from over the course of the interview. And this one for anyone who's listening is on page 150. And you write Stephen,"Spiritually-speaking, most of the weddings in our corner of the world are endogamous affairs, inward-looking. What is, to me, most unnerving is that they can be spiritually-incestuous. The withering of psychic difference between people is the program of globalization. It is in the architecture of most things partaking of the internet, and it is in the homogeneity of our matrimony. [00:28:00] It is this very incestuous that matrimony was once crafted and entered into to avoid and subvert. Now, it grinds upon our differences until they are details.And so, this paragraph reminded me of a time in my youth when I seemed to be meeting couples who very eerily looked like each other. No blood or extended kin relation whatsoever, and yet they had very similar faces. And so as I get older, this kind of face fidelity aside, I continue to notice that people looking for companionship tend to base their search on similitude, on shared interests, customs, experiences, shared anything and everything. This, specifically, in opposition to those on the other side of the aisle or spectrum, to difference or divergence. And so, opposites don't attract anymore. I'm curious what you think this psychic [00:29:00] withering does to an achieve understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Well, I mean, let's wonder what it does to us, generally, first before we get to matrimony, let's say. It demonizes. Maybe that's too strong, but it certainly reconstitutes difference as some kind of affliction, some kind of not quite good enough, some kind of something that has to be overcome or overwhelmed on the road to, to what? On the road to sameness? So, if that's the goal, then are all of the differences between us, aberrations of some kind, if that's the goal? If that's the goal, are all the [00:30:00] differences between us, not God-given, but humanly misconstrued or worse? Humanly wrought? Do the differences between us conceivably then belong at all? Or is the principle object of the entire endeavor to marry yourself, trying to put up with the vague differences that the other person represents to you?I mean, I not very jokingly said years ago, that I coined a phrase that went something like "the compromise of infinity, which is other people." What does that mean? "The compromise of infinity, which is other people." Not to mention it's a pretty nice T-shirt. But what I meant by the [00:31:00] phrase is this: when you demonize difference in this fashion or when you go the other direction and lionize sameness, then one of the things that happens is that compromise becomes demonized, too. Compromise, by definition, is something you never should have done, right? Compromise is how much you surrender of yourself in order to get by. That's what all these things become. And before you know it, you're just beaten about the head and shoulders about "codependence" and you know, not being "true to yourself" as if being true to yourself is some kind of magic.I mean, the notion that "yourself is the best part of you" is just hilarious. I mean, when you think about it, like who's running amuck if yourself is what you're supposed to be? I ask you. Like, who's [00:32:00] doing the harm? Who's going mental if the self is such a good idea? So, of course, I'm maintaining here that I'm not persuaded that there is such a thing.I think it's a momentary lapse in judgment to have a self and to stick to it. That's the point I'm really making to kind of reify it until it turns ossified and dusty and bizarrely adamant like that estranged relative that lives in the basement of your house. Bizarrely, foreignly adamant, right? Like the house guest who just won't f**k off kind of thing.Okay, so "to thine own self be true," is it? Well, try being true to somebody else's self for ten minutes. Try that. [00:33:00] That's good at exercise for matrimony - being true to somebody else's self. You'll discover that their selves are not made in heaven, either. Either. I underscore it - either. I've completely lost track of the question you asked me.Chris: What are the consequences of the sameness on this anti-cultural sameness, and the program of it for an achieved understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Thank you. Well, I will fess up right now. I do so in the book. That's a terrible phrase. I swear I'd never say such a thing. "In my book... I say the following," but in this case, it's true. I did say this. I realized during the writing of it that I had made a tremendous tactical error in the convening of the event as I did it over the years, [00:34:00] and this is what it came to.I was very persuaded at the time of the story that appears in the chapter called "Salt and Indigo" in the book. I was very, very persuaded. I mean, listen, I made up the story (for what it's worth), okay, but I didn't make it up out of nothing. I made it up out of a kind of tribal memory that wouldn't quite let go.And in it, I was basically saying, here's these two tribes known principally for what they trade in and what they love most emphatically. They turn out to be the same thing. And I describe a circumstance in which they exchange things in a trade scenario, not a commerce scenario. And I'm using the chapter basically to make the case that matrimony's architecture derives in large measure from the sacraments of trade as manifest in that story. [00:35:00] Okay. And this is gonna sound obvious, but the fundamental requirement of the whole conceit that I came up with is that there are two tribes. Well, I thought to myself, "of course, there's always two tribes" at the time. And the two tribe-ness is reflected in when you come to the wedding site, you're typically asked (I hope you're still asked) " Are you family or friend of the groom or friend of the bride?" And you're seated "accordingly," right? That's the nominal, vestigial shard of this old tribal affiliation, that people came from over the rise, basically unknown to each other, to arrive at the kind of no man's land of matrimony, and proceeded accordingly. So, I put these things into motion in this very room and I sat people accordingly facing each other, not facing the alleged front of the room. [00:36:00] And of course, man, nobody knew where to look, because you raised your eyes and s**t. There's just humans across from you, just scads of them who you don't freaking know. And there's something about doing that to North Americas that just throws them. So, they're just looking at each other and then looking away, and looking at each other and looking away, and wondering what they're doing here and what it's for. And I'm going back and forth for three hours, orienting them as to what is is coming.Okay, so what's the miscalculation that I make? The miscalculation I made was assuming that by virtue of the seating arrangement, by virtue of me reminding them of the salt and indigo times, by virtue of the fact that they had a kind of allegiance of some sort or another to the people who are, for the moment, betrothed, that those distinctions and those affiliations together would congeal them, and constitute a [00:37:00] kind of tribal affiliation that they would intuitively be drawn towards as you would be drawn to heat on a cold winter's night.Only to discover, as I put the thing into motion that I was completely wrong about everything I just told you about. The nature of my error was this, virtually all of those people on one side of the room were fundamentally of the same tribe as the people on the other side of the room, apropos of your question, you see. They were card carrying members of the gray dominant culture of North America. Wow. The bleached, kind of amorphous, kind of rootless, ancestor-free... even regardless of whether their people came over in the last generation from the alleged old country. It doesn't really claim them.[00:38:00]There were two tribes, but I was wrong about who they were. That was one tribe. Virtually everybody sitting in the room was one tribe.So, who's the other tribe? Answer is: me and the four or five people who were in on the structural delivery of this endeavour with me. We were the other tribe.We didn't stand a chance, you see?And I didn't pick up on that, and I didn't cast it accordingly and employ that, instead. I employed the conceit that I insisted was manifest and mobilized in the thing, instead of the manifest dilemma, which is that everybody who came knew what a wedding was, and me and four or five other people were yet to know if this could be one. That was the tribal difference, if you [00:39:00] will.So, it was kind of invisible, wasn't it? Even to me at the time. Or, I say, maybe especially to me at the time. And so, things often went the way they went, which was for however much fascination and willingness to consider that there might have been in the room, there was quite a bit more either flat affect and kind of lack of real fascination, or curiosity, or sometimes downright hostility and pushback. Yeah.So, all of that comes from the fact that I didn't credit as thoroughly as I should have done, the persistence in Anglo-North America of a kind of generic sameness that turned out to be what most people came here ancestrally to become. "Starting again" is recipe for culture [00:40:00] loss of a catastrophic order. The fantasy of starting again. Right?And we've talked about that in your podcast, and you and I have talked about it privately, apropos of your own family and everybody's sitting in this room knows what I'm talking about. And when does this show up? Does it show up, oh, when you're walking down the street? Does it show up when you're on the mountaintop? Does it show up in your peak experiences? And the answer is "maybe." It probably shows up most emphatically in those times when you have a feeling that something special is supposed to be so, and all you can get from the "supposed to" is the allegation of specialness.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And then, you look around in the context of matrimony and you see a kind of febral, kind of strained, the famous bridezilla stuff, all of that stuff. [00:41:00] You saw it in the hospitality industry, no doubt. You know, the kind of mania for perfection, as if perfection constitutes culture. Right? With every detail checked off in the checkbox, that's culture. You know, as if everything goes off without a hitch and there's no guffaws. And in fact, anybody could reasonably make the case, "Where do you think culture appears when the script finally goes f*****g sideways?" That's when. And when you find out what you're capable of, ceremonially.And generally speaking, I think most people discovered that their ceremonial illiteracy bordered on the bottomless.That's when you find out. Hmm.Chris: Wow.Stephen: Yeah. And that's why people, you know, in speech time, they reach in there and get that piece of paper, and just look at it. Mm-hmm. They don't even look up, terrified that they're gonna go off script for a minute as [00:42:00] if the Gods of Matrimony are a scripted proposition.Chris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us, that degree of deep reflection and humility that I'm sure comes with it.Stephen: Mea Culpa, baby. Yeah, I was, I got that one totally wrong. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know it at the time. Meanwhile, like, how much can you transgress and have the consequences of doing so like spill out across the floor like a broken thermometer's mercury and not wise up.But of course, I was as driven as anybody. I was as driven to see if I could come through with what I promised to do the year before. And keeping your promise can make you into a maniac.Audience: Hmm hmm.Chris: But I imagine that, you [00:43:00] know, you wouldn't have been able to see that even years later if you didn't say yes in the first place.Stephen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been able to make the errors.Chris: Right.Stephen: Right. Yeah. I mean, as errors go, this is not a mortal sin. Right, right. And you could chalk it up to being a legitimate miscalculation. Well, so? All I'm saying is, it turns out I was there too, and it turns out, even though I was allegedly the circus master of the enterprise, I wasn't free and clear of the things we were all contending with, the kind of mortality and sort of cultural ricketiness that were all heirs to. That's how I translated it, as it turns out.So, PS there was a moment, [00:44:00] which I don't remember which setting it was now, but there was a moment when the "maybe we'll see if she becomes a bride" bride's mother slid up to me during the course of the proceedings, and in a kind of stage whisper more or less hissed me as follows."Is this a real wedding?"I mean, that's not a question. Not in that setting, obviously not. That is an accusation. Right. And a withering one at that. And there was a tremendous amount of throw-down involved.So, was it? I mean, what we do know is that she did not go to any of the weddings [00:45:00] that she was thinking of at the time, and go to the front of the room where the celebrant is austerely standing there with the book, or the script, or the well-intentioned, or the self-penned vows and never hissed at him or her, "is this a real wedding?"Never once did she do that. We know that.Right.And I think we know why. But she was fairly persuaded she knew what a real wedding was. And all she was really persuaded by was the poverty of the weddings that she'd attended before that one. Well, I was as informed in that respect as she was, wasn't I? I just probably hadn't gone to as many reprobate weddings as she had, so she had more to deal with than I did, even though I was in the position of the line of fire.And I didn't respond too well to the question, I have to say. At the moment, I was rather combative. But I mean, you try to do [00:46:00] what I tried to do and not have a degree of fierceness to go along with your discernment, you know, just to see if you can drag this carcass across the threshold. Anyway, that happened too.Chris: Wow. Yeah. Dominant culture of North America.Stephen: Heard of it.Chris: Yeah. Well, in Matrimony, there's quite a bit in which you write about hospitality and radical hospitality. And I wanted to move in that direction a little bit, because in terms of these kind of marketplace rituals or ceremonies that you were mentioning you know, it's something that we might wonder, I think, as you have, how did it come to be this [00:47:00] way?And so I'd like to, if I can once again, quote from matrimony in which you speak to the etymology of hospitality. And so for those interested on page 88,"the word hospitality comes from hospitaller, meaning 'one who cares for the afflicted, the infirm, the needy.' There's that thread of our misgivings about being on the receiving end of hospitality. Pull on it. For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"End quote.Stephen: That's so great. I mean, before you go on with the quote. It's so great to know that the word, unexamined, just kind of leaks upside, doesn't it? Hospitality, I mean, nobody goes "Hospitality, ew." [00:48:00] And then, if you just quietly do the obvious math to yourself, there's so much awkwardness around hospitality.This awkwardness must have an origin, have a home. There must be some misgiving that goes along with the giving of hospitality, mustn't there be? How else to understand where that kind of ickiness is to be found. Right? And it turns out that the etymology is giving you the beginnings of a way of figuring it out what it is that you're on the receiving end of - a kind of succor that you wish you didn't need, which is why it's the root word for "hospital."Chris: Hmm hmm. Wow.Audience: Hmm.Chris: May I repeat that sentence please? Once more."For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, [00:49:00] 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"And so this last part hits home for me as I imagine it does for many.And it feels like the orthodoxy of hospitality in our time is one based not only in transaction, but in debt. And if you offer hospitality to me, then I owe you hospitality.Stephen: Right.Chris: I'm indebted to you. And we are taught, in our time, that the worst thing to be in is in debt.Stephen: Right?Chris: And so people refuse both the desire to give as well as the learning skill of receiving. And this is continuing on page 88 now."But there's mystery afoot with this word. In its old Latin form, hospice meant both 'host' and 'guest.'"Stephen: Amazing. One. Either one, This is absolutely amazing. We're fairly sure that there's a [00:50:00] acres of difference between the giver of hospitality and the receiver that the repertoire is entirely different, that the skew between them is almost insurmountable, that they're not interchangeable in any way. But the history of the word immediately says, "really?" The history of the word, without question, says that "host" and "guest" are virtually the same, sitting in different places, being different people, more or less joined at the hip. I'll say more, but you go ahead with what you were gonna do. Sure.Chris: "In it's proto Indo-European origins, hospitality and hospice is a compound word: gosh + pot. And it meant something like [00:51:00] 'stranger/guest/host + powerful Lord.'It is amazing to me that ancestrally, the old word for guest, host, and stranger were all the same word. Potent ceremonial business, this is. In those days, the server and the serve were partners in something mysterious. This could be confusing, but only if you think of guest, host, and stranger as fixed identities.If you think of them as functions, as verbs, the confusion softens and begins to clear. The word hospice in its ancient root is telling us that each of the people gathered together in hospitality is bound to the others by formal etiquette, yes, but the bond is transacted through a subtle scheme of graces.Hospitality, it tells us, is a web of longing and belonging that binds people for a time, some hithereto unknown to each other is a clutch of mutually-binding elegances, you could say. In its ancient practice, [00:52:00] hospitality was a covenant. According to that accord, however we were with each other. That was how the Gods would be with us. We learn our hospitality by being on the receiving end of Godly administration. That's what giving thanks for members. We proceed with our kin in imitation of that example and in gratitude for it."Mm-hmm.And so today, among "secular" people, with the Gods ignored, this old-time hospitality seems endangered, if not fugitive. I'm curious how you imagine that this rupture arose, the ones that separated and commercialized the radical relationships between hosts and guests, that turned them from verbs to nouns and something like strangers to marketplace functions.[00:53:00]Stephen: Well, of course this is a huge question you've asked, and I'll see if I can unhuge it a bit.Chris: Uhhuh.Stephen: Let's go right to the heart of what happened. Just no preliminaries, just right to it.So, to underscore again, the beauty of the etymology. I've told you over and over again, the words will not fail you. And this is just a shining example, isn't it? That the fraternization is a matter of ceremonial alacrity that the affiliation between host and guest, which makes them partners in something, that something is the [00:54:00] evocation of a third thing that's neither one of them. It's the thing they've lent themselves to by virtue of submitting to being either a host or a guest. One.Two. You could say that in circumstances of high culture or highly-functioning culture, one of the principle attributes of that culture is that the fundament of its understanding, is that only with the advent of the stranger in their midst that the best of them comes forward.Okay, follow that. Yeah.So, this is a little counterintuitive for those of us who don't come from such places. We imagine that the advent of strangers in the midst of the people I'm describing would be an occasion where people hide their [00:55:00] best stuff away until the stranger disappears, and upon the disappearance of the stranger, the good stuff comes out again.You know?So, I'm just remembering just now, there's a moment in the New Testament where Jesus says something about the best wine and he's coming from exactly this page that we're talking about - not the page in the book, but this understanding. He said, you know, "serve your best wine first," unlike the standard, that prevails, right?So again, what a stranger does in real culture is call upon the cultural treasure of the host's culture, and provides the opportunity for that to come forward, right? By which you can understand... Let's say for simplicity's sake, there's two kinds of hospitality. There's probably all kinds of gradations, [00:56:00] but for the purposes of responding to what you've asked, there's two.One of them is based on kinship. Okay? So, family meal. So, everybody knows whose place is whose around the table, or it doesn't matter - you sit wherever you want. Or, when we're together, we speak shorthand. That's the shorthand of familiarity and affinity, right?Everybody knows what everybody's talking about. A lot of things get half-said or less, isn't it? And there's a certain fineness, isn't it? That comes with that kind of affinity. Of course, there is, and I'm not diminishing it at all. I'm just characterizing it as being of a certain frequency or calibre or charge. And the charge is that it trades on familiarity. It requires that. There's that kind of hospitality."Oh, sit wherever you want."Remember this one?[00:57:00]"We don't stand on ceremony here.""Oh, you're one of the family now." I just got here. What, what?But, of course, you can hear in the protestations the understanding, in that circumstance, that formality is an enemy to feeling good in this moment, isn't it? It feels stiff and starched and uncalled for or worse.It feels imported from elsewhere. It doesn't feel friendly. So, I'm giving you now beginnings of a differentiation between how cultures who really function as cultures understand what it means to be hospitable and what often prevails today, trading is a kind of low-grade warfare conducted against the strangeness of the stranger.The whole purpose of treating somebody like their family is to mitigate, and finally neutralize their [00:58:00] strangeness, so that for the purposes of the few hours in front of us all, there are no strangers here. Right? Okay.Then there's another kind, and intuitively you can feel what I'm saying. You've been there, you know exactly what I mean.There's another kind of circumstance where the etiquette that prevails is almost more emphatic, more tangible to you than the familiar one. That's the one where your mother or your weird aunt or whoever she might be, brings out certain kind of stuff that doesn't come out every day. And maybe you sit in a room that you don't often sit in. And maybe what gets cooked is stuff you haven't seen in a long time. And some part of you might be thinking, "What the hell is all this about?" And the answer is: it's about that guy in the [00:59:00] corner that you don't know.And your own ancestral culture told acres of stories whose central purpose was to convey to outsiders their understanding of what hospitality was. That is fundamentally what The Iliad and The Odyssey are often returning to and returning to and returning to.They even had a word for the ending of the formal hospitality that accrued, that arose around the care and treatment of strangers. It was called pomp or pompe, from which we get the word "pompous." And you think about what the word "pompous" means today.It means "nose in the air," doesn't it? Mm-hmm. It means "thinks really highly of oneself," isn't it? And it means "useless, encumbering, kind of [01:00:00] artificial kind of going through the motions stuff with a kind of aggrandizement for fun." That's what "pompous" means. Well, the people who gave us the word didn't mean that at all. This word was the word they used to describe the particular moment of hospitality when it was time for the stranger to leave.And when it was mutually acknowledged that the time for hospitality has come to an end, and the final act of hospitality is to accompany the stranger out of the house, out of the compound, out into the street, and provision them accordingly, and wish them well, and as is oftentimes practiced around here, standing in the street and waving them long after they disappear from view.This is pompous. This is what it actually means. Pretty frigging cool when you get corrected once in a while, isn't it? [01:01:00] Yeah.So, as I said, to be simplistic about it, there's at least a couple of kinds, and one of them treasures the advent of the stranger, understanding it to be the detonation point for the most elegant part of us to come forward.Now, those of us who don't come from such a place, we're just bamboozled and Shanghai'ed by the notion of formality, which we kind of eschew. You don't like formality when it comes to celebration, as if these two things are hostile, one to the other. But I'd like you to consider the real possibility that formality is grace under pressure, and that formality is there to give you a repertoire of response that rescues you from the gross limitations of your autobiography.[01:02:00]Next question. I mean, that's the beginning.Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Thank you once again, Stephen. So alongside the term or concept of "pompe," in which the the guest or stranger was led out of the house or to the entrance of the village, there was also the consideration around the enforcement of hospitality, which you write about in the book. And you write that"the enforcement of hospitality runs the palpable risk of violating or undoing the cultural value it is there to advocate for. Forcing people to share their good fortune with the less fortunate stretches, to the point of undoing the generosity of spirit that the culture holds dear. Enforcement of hospitality is a sign of the eclipse of hospitality, typically spawned by insecurity, contracted self-definition, and the darkening of the [01:03:00] stranger at the door.Instead, such places and times are more likely to encourage the practice of hospitality in subtle generous ways, often by generously treating the ungenerous."And so there seems to be a need for limits placed on hospitality, in terms of the "pompe," the maximum three days in which a stranger can be given hospitality, and concurrently a need to resist enforcing hospitality. This seems like a kind of high-wire act that hospitable cultures have to balance in order to recognize and realize an honorable way of being with a stranger. And so I'm wondering if you could speak to the possibility of how these limits might be practiced without being enforced. What might that look like in a culture that engages with, with such limits, but without prohibitions?Stephen: Mm-hmm. That's a very good question. [01:04:00] Well, I think your previous question was what happened? I think, in a nutshell, and I didn't really answer that, so maybe see how I can use this question to answer the one that you asked before: what happened? So, there's no doubt in my mind that something happened that it's kind of demonstrable, if only with the benefit of hindsight.Audience: Right.Stephen: Or we can feel our way around the edges of the absence of the goneness of that thing that gives us some feel for the original shape of that thing.So you could say I'm trafficking in "ideals," here, and after a fashion, maybe, yeah. But the notion of "ideals," when it's used in this slanderous way suggests that "it was never like that."Chris: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And I suggest to you it's been like that in a lot of places, and there's a lot of places where it's still like that, although globalization [01:05:00] may be the coup de grâce performed upon this capacity. Okay. But anyway.Okay. So what happened? Well, you see in the circumstance that I described, apropos of the stranger, the stranger is in on it. The stranger's principle responsibility is to be the vector for this sort of grandiose generosity coming forward, and to experience that in a burdensome and unreciprocated fashion, until you realize that their willingness to do that is their reciprocity. Everybody doesn't get to do everything at once. You can't give and receive at the same time. You know what that's called? "Secret Santa at school," isn't it?That's where nobody owes nobody nothing at the end. That's what we're all after. I mean, one of your questions, you know, pointed to that, that there's a kind of, [01:06:00] what do you call that, teeter-totter balance between what people did for each other and what they received for each other. Right. And nobody feels slighted in any way, perfect balance, et cetera.Well, the circumstance here has nothing of the kind going with it. The circumstance we're describing now is one in which the hospitality is clearly unequal in terms of who's eating whose food, for example, in terms of the absolutely frustrated notion of reciprocity, that in fact you undo your end of the hospitality by trying to pay back, or give back, or pay at all, or break even, or not feel the burden of "God, you've been on the take for fricking hours here now." And if you really look in the face of the host, I mean, they're just getting started and you can't, you can't take it anymore.[01:07:00]So, one of the ways that we contend with this is through habits of speech. So, if somebody comes around with seconds. They say, "would you like a little more?"And you say, "I'm good. I'm good. I'm good." You see, "I'm good" is code for what? "F**k off." That's what it's code for. It's a little strong. It's a little strong. What I mean is, when "I'm good" comes to town, it means I don't need you and what you have. Good God, you're not there because you need it you knucklehead. You're there because they need it, because their culture needs an opportunity to remember itself. Right?Okay. So what happened? Because you're making it sound like a pretty good thing, really. Like who would say, "I think we've had enough of this hospitality thing, don't you? Let's try, oh, [01:08:00] keeping our s**t to ourselves. That sounds like a good alternative. Let's give it a week or two, see how it rolls." Never happened. Nobody decided to do this - this change, I don't think. I think the change happened, and sometime long after people realized that the change had had taken place. And it's very simple. The change, I think, went something like this.As long as the guest is in on it, there's a shared and mutually-held understanding that doesn't make them the same. It makes them to use the quote from the book "partners," okay, with different tasks to bring this thing to light, to make it so. What does that require? A mutually-held understanding in vivo as it's happening, what it is.Okay. [01:09:00] So, that the stranger who's not part of the host culture... sorry, let me say this differently.The culture of the stranger has made the culture of the host available to the stranger no matter how personally adept he or she may be at receiving. Did you follow that?Audience: A little.Stephen: Okay. Say it again?Audience: Yes, please.Stephen: Okay. The acculturation, the cultured sophistication of the stranger is at work in his or her strangerhood. Okay. He or she's not at home, but their cultural training helps them understand what their obligations are in terms of this arrangement we've been describing here.Okay, so I think the rupture takes place [01:10:00] when the culturation of one side or the other fails to make the other discernible to the one.One more time?When something happens whereby the acculturation of one of the partners makes the identity, the presence, and the valence of the other one untranslatable. Untranslatable.I could give you an example from what I call " the etiquette of trade," or the... what was the word? Not etiquette. What's the other word?Chris: The covenant?Stephen: Okay, " covenant of trade" we'll call it. So, imagine that people are sitting across from each other, two partners in a trade. Okay? [01:11:00] Imagine that they have one thing to sell or move or exchange and somebody has something else.How does this work? Not "what are the mechanics?" That can be another discussion, but, if this works, how does it work? Not "how does it happen?" How does it actually achieve what they're after? Maybe it's something like this.I have this pottery, and even though you're not a potter, but somebody in your extended family back home was, and you watched what they went through to make a fricking pot, okay?You watched how their hands seized up, because the clay leached all the moisture out of the hands. You distinctly remember that - how the old lady's hands looked cracked and worn, and so from the work of making vessels of hospitality, okay? [01:12:00] It doesn't matter that you didn't make it yourself. The point is you recognize in the item something we could call "cultural patrimony."You recognize the deep-runningness of the culture opposite you as manifest and embodied in this item for trade. Okay? So, the person doesn't have to "sell you" because your cultural sophistication makes this pot on the other side available to you for the deeply venerable thing that it is. Follow what I'm saying?Okay. So, you know what I'm gonna say next? When something happens, the items across from you cease to speak, cease to have their stories come along with them, cease to be available. There's something about your cultural atrophy that you project onto the [01:13:00] item that you don't recognize.You don't recognize it's valence, it's proprieties, it's value, it's deep-running worth and so on. Something happened, okay? And because you're not making your own stuff back home or any part of it. And so now, when you're in a circumstance like this and you're just trying to get this pot, but you know nothing about it, then the enterprise becomes, "Okay, so what do you have to part with to obtain the pot?"And the next thing is, you pretend you're not interested in obtaining the pot to obtain the pot. That becomes part of the deal. And then, the person on the making end feels the deep running slight of your disinterest, or your vague involvement in the proceedings, or maybe the worst: when it's not things you're going back and forth with, but there's a third thing called money, which nobody makes, [01:14:00] which you're not reminded of your grandma or anyone else's with the money. And then, money becomes the ghost of the original understanding of the cultural patrimony that sat between you. That's what happened, I'm fairly sure: the advent, the estrangement that comes with the stranger, instead of the opportunity to be your cultural best when the stranger comes.And then of course, it bleeds through all kinds of transactions beyond the "obvious material ones." So, it's a rupture in translatability, isn't it?Chris: You understand this to happen or have happened historically, culturally, et cetera, with matrimony as well?Stephen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.Yeah. This is why, for example, things like the fetishization of virginity.Audience: Mm-hmm. [01:15:00]Stephen: I think it's traceable directly to what we're talking about. How so? Oh, this is a whole other long thing, but the very short version would be this.Do you really believe that through all of human history until the recent liberation, that people have forever fetishized the virginity of a young woman and jealously defended it, the "men" in particular, and that it became a commodity to trade back and forth in, and that it had to be prodded and poked at to determine its intactness? And this was deemed to be, you know, honourable behavior?Do you really think that's the people you come from, that they would've do that to the most cherished of their [01:16:00] own, barely pubescent girls? Come on now. I'm not saying it didn't happen and doesn't still happen. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, God almighty, something happened for that to be so.And I'm trying to allude to you now what I think took place. Then all of a sudden, the hymen takes the place of the pottery, doesn't it? And it becomes universally translatable. Doesn't it? It becomes a kind of a ghosted artifact of a culturally-intact time. It's as close as you can get.Hence, this allegation of its purity, or the association with purity, and so on. [01:17:00] I mean, there's lots to say, but that gives you a feel for what might have happened there.Chris: Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for being so generous with your considerations here.Stephen: You see why I had to write a book, eh?Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: There was too much bouncing around. Like I had to just keep track of my own thoughts on the matter.But can you imagine all of this at play in the year, oh, I don't know, 2022, trying to put into motion a redemptive passion play called "matrimony," with all of this at play? Not with all of this in my mind, but with all of this actually disfiguring the anticipation of the proceedings for the people who came.Can you imagine? Can you imagine trying to pull it off, and [01:18:00] contending overtly with all these things and trying to make room for them in a moment that's supposed to be allegedly - get ready for it - happy.I should have raised my rates on the first day, trying to pull that off.But anyway.Okay, you go now,Chris: Maybe now you'll have the opportunity.Stephen: No, man. No. I'm out of the running for that. "Pompe" has come and come and gone. Mm.Chris: So, in matrimony, Stephen, you write that"the brevity, the brevity of modern ceremonies is really there to make sure that nothing happens, nothing of substance, nothing of consequence, no alchemy, no mystery, no crazy other world stuff. That overreach there in its scripted heart tells me that deep in the rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day, the modern wedding is scared [01:19:00] silly of something happening. That's because it has an ages-old abandoned memory of a time when a wedding was a place where the Gods came around, where human testing and trying and making was at hand, when the dead lingered in the wings awaiting their turn to testify and inveigh."Gorgeous. Gorgeous.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: And so I'm curious ifStephen: "Rayon-wrapped bosom." That's not, that's not shabby.Chris: "Rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day." Yeah.So, I'm curious do you think the more-than-human world practices matrimony, and if so, what, if anything, might you have learned about matrimony from the more-than-human world?Stephen: I would say the reverse. I would say, we practice the more-than-human world in matrimony, not that the more-than-human world practices matrimony. We practice them, [01:20:00] matrimonially.Next. Okay. Or no? I just gonna say that, that's pretty good.Well, where do we get our best stuff from? Let's just wonder that. Do we get our best stuff from being our best? Well, where does that come from? And this is a bit of a barbershop mirrors situation here, isn't it? To, to back, back, back, back.If you're thinking of time, you can kind of get lost in that generation before, or before, before, before. And it starts to sound like one of them biblical genealogies. But if you think of it as sort of the flash point of multiple presences, if you think of it that way, then you come to [01:21:00] credit the real possibility that your best stuff comes from you being remembered by those who came before you.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: Now just let that sit for a second, because what I just said is logically-incompatible.Okay? You're being remembered by people who came before you. That's not supposed to work. It doesn't work that way. Right?"Anticipated," maybe, but "remembered?" How? Well, if you credit the possibility of multiple beginnings, that's how. Okay. I'm saying that your best stuff, your best thoughts, not the most noble necessarily. I would mean the most timely, [01:22:00] the ones that seem most needed, suddenly.You could take credit and sure. Why, why not? Because ostensibly, it arrives here through you, but if you're frank with yourself, you know that you didn't do that on command, right? I mean, you could say, I just thought of it, but you know in your heart that it was thought of and came to you.I don't think there's any difference between saying that and saying you were thought of.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: So, that's what I think the rudiments of old-order matrimony are. They are old people and their benefactors in the food chain and spiritually speaking. Old people and their benefactors, the best part of them [01:23:00] willed to us, entrusted and willed to us. So, when you are willing to enter into the notion that old-order matrimony is older than you, older than your feelings for the other person, older than your love, and your commitment, and your willingness to make the vows and all that stuff, then you're crediting the possibility that your love is not the beginning of anything.You see. Your love is the advent of something, and I use that word deliberately in its Christian notion, right? It's the oncomingness, the eruption into the present day of something, which turns out to be hugely needed and deeply unsuspected at the same time.I used to ask in the school, "can you [01:24:00] have a memory of something you have no lived experience of?" I think that's what the best part of you is. I'm not saying the rest of you is shite. I'm not saying that. You could say that, but I am saying that when I say "the best part of you," that needs a lot of translating, doesn't it?But the gist of it is that the best part of you is entrusted to you. It's not your creation, it's your burden, your obligation, your best chance to get it right. And that's who we are to those who came before us. We are their chance to get it right, and matrimony is one of the places where you practice the gentle art of getting it right.[01:25:00] Another decent reason to write a book.Chris: So, gorgeous. Wow. Thank you Stephen. I might have one more question.Stephen: Okay. I might have one more answer. Let's see.Chris: Alright. Would I be able to ask if dear Nathalie Roy could join us up here alongside your good man.So, returning to Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work. On page 94, [01:26:00] Stephen, you write that"hospitality of the radical kind is

Welcome back to the 250th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 250th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Romeo Pimp, written by Jesse McQueen, directed by Sophie Ann Rooney, presented by The King Black Box in partnership with One East Productions. Join Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie and Jadyn Nasato as they unpack the layered details and symbolism woven throughout the production, reflect on the power that the intimacy of the theatre space brought to the piece, and explore the impact of the choice to leave Jamie's father unseen.Romeo Pimp is playing at The King Black Box (1224 King Street West, Unit #300-3rd floor, Toronto, ON, M6K 1G4) from September 17th to October 4th. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.thekingblackbox.com/event-details/romeo-pimp-by-jesse-mcqueen-world-premiere-2025-09-24-20-00 CONTENT WARNING: Romeo Pimp contains depictions, references, or implications of sexual exploitation & trafficking, grooming & psychological abuse, mental health & dissociation, substance use, violence, threats & intimidation, verbal & sexualized language themes of consent, power, and identity. If you are a victim or survivor of human trafficking, or think someone might be, please contact the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline to be connected with support services or law enforcement in your community. The Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline can be reached 24/7 by phone at 1-833-900-1010 or online at www.canadianhumantraffickinghotline.ca.Less importantly, this review contains many SPOILERS for Romeo Pimp. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [25:43] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner –Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeN Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Jadyn Nasato – Instagram: @jadyn.nasatoHeadshots Studio– Instagram: @hdshts.studiosFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 247th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 247th episode we have a new artist interview. This particular conversation is between our our Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie and the sketch comedy troupe members Rami Khan of Potato Potato and Becky Ablack of Small Friend Tall Friend. Both of whom are fresh off their appearance in the very first installment of Spotlight at The Second City—a brand-new Toronto series where the city's best and emerging sketch troupes present their sharpest 30 minutes. Together these three discuss their comedy origin stories, favourite political impressions, how they built their Spotlight sets, and the art of tackling divisive topics in today's polarized world.Spotlight at The Second City series continues on a monthly basis at The Second City Toronto (1 York Street, Toronto, ON, Canada). Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.secondcity.com/shows/toronto/spotlight-at-the-second-city-tor Follow Rami Khan – Instagram: @ ramikhan_ Follow Potato Potato – Instagram: @ potatopotatopresents Follow Becky Ablack – Instagram: @beckyablack Follow Small Friend Tall Friend – Instagram: @ smallfriend.tallfriend // Website: https://smallfriendtallfriend.carrd.co/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAafsjHnr8eQyr9vgXM83m_5XKg56qsN4tPQpEYu5c9iuilpQTe2kpTfBDVaYZQ_aem_OXTGv8nnBOL-_XT83fxYmA Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Oskar Linnros om sitt kommande album, karaokeframträdandet av Från och med du, festen hos Hanna och sitt sexiga uttal av mm. Hanna och Christophers bråk om Jonathan Johansson. Vi minns kattkvinnan i dagens SPÅD. Ormens gift: Christopher Garplind. Lyssna på alla avsnitt i Sveriges Radio Play. Programledare: Christopher Garplind och Hanna Hellquist

Contributor: Aaron Lessen, MD Educational Pearls: What is a Nursemaid's Elbow? A condition in which an elbow gets partially pulled out of place (a radial head subluxation) Usually happens in kids under 5 because the ligaments around their elbow are still loose. A common situation is when an adult pulls a child up by the hand or swings them by the arms. The sudden tug causes the radius to slip out of its normal spot at the elbow joint. How are they identified? These don't normally need an xray The child will often hold their arm close to their side and refuse to use it There's usually no swelling or obvious deformity. Treatment? Reduce the radial head subluxation. There are two possible techniques: Flexion and supination. Start with the arm extended and pronated. Then supinate the forearm. Then bend the elbow up all the way. Hyper-pronation. One hand stabilizes just above the child's elbow, the other holds the wrist. Start with the arm extended. Hyperpronate the forearm. Listen/feel for a click The child is normally back to normal quickly, if not get the xray Which is better? Hyperpronation (Aksel, 2025) 10% first attempt failure rate Flexion-pronation has a 25% first attempt failure rate References Aksel G, Küka B, İslam MM, Demirkapı F, Öztürk İ, İşlek OM, Ademoğlu E, Eroğlu SE, Satıcı MO, Özdemir S. Comparison of supination/flexion maneuver to hyperpronation maneuver in the reduction of radial head subluxations: A randomized clinical trial. Am J Emerg Med. 2025 Feb;88:29-33. doi: 10.1016/j.ajem.2024.11.026. Epub 2024 Nov 18. PMID: 39579408. Ulici A, Herdea A, Carp M, Nahoi CA, Tevanov I. Nursemaid's Elbow - Supination-flexion Technique Versus Hyperpronation/forced Pronation: Randomized Clinical Study. Indian J Orthop. 2019 Jan-Feb;53(1):117-121. doi: 10.4103/ortho.IJOrtho_442_17. PMID: 30905991; PMCID: PMC6394198. Summarized by Jeffrey Olson, MS4 | Edited by Jeffrey Olson and Jorge Chalit, OMS4 Donate: https://emergencymedicalminute.org/donate/

KD Casey joins us to talk about her MM baseball romance novel, Breakout Year. ⁠⁠⁠⁠B⁠uy Breakout YearFollow KD Casey on InstagramFollow KD Casey on BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Twin Bill Lit Journal⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Twin Bill ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Twin Bill Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support the Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buy Early Innings⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buy Short Relief⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Hosted by Scott BolohanMusic by Mark Bolohan

Featuring an interview with Dr Beth Faiman, including the following topics: Clinical practice background and historical view of treatment for multiple myeloma (MM) (0:00) Fundamental principles associated with chimeric antigen receptor (CAR) T-cell therapy (7:19) Sequencing of CAR T-cell therapy and bispecific antibodies in the MM treatment landscape (9:00) Patient eligibility to receive CAR T-cell therapy (13:23) Differentiating among approved CAR T-cell therapies for MM (18:18) Durability of responses to CAR T-cell therapy for MM (24:01) Neurotoxicity with CAR T-cell therapies for MM (26:26) Minimal residual disease monitoring in MM (29:39) Support systems for the management of toxicities associated with CAR T-cell therapy (35:10) Patients with MM experiencing durable responses to CAR T-cell therapy (43:11) NCPD information and select publications

In business and in sales, the future is changing faster than most can keep up. AI isn't just a buzzword anymore. It's transforming how deals are made and how teams operate. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Steve Trang of ObjectionProof.ai to explore how AI sales reps can book appointments, review calls, and follow up with leads instantly, what this means for property management entrepreneurs, and why learning to leverage AI now is critical to staying competitive. You'll Learn [01:24] The AI Revolution [11:11] AI Sales Reps [17:39] The Future of AI in Sales [27:31] The Importance of Asking Good Questions [34:49] Setting Impossible Goals to Grow Faster Quotables “I'm not here to say your job is at stake, but you should operate as if it is—because if you're not, you're going to get replaced.” “The version of AI today is the worst version you'll ever deal with—because it's only getting better.” “AI can instantly—99.9% uptime—call the prospect, ask questions, and book an appointment for you or your salesperson to actually run the sales process.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (00:00) We are building out an AI agent that can actually run sales.   call the prospect, ask questions, book an appointment.   for you,   so it actually sounds like you're having a conversation with another human being.   Jason Hull (00:14) All right, I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing.   increase profit and simplify operations and build and replace teams. We are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway.   to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right, my guest today is Steve Trang of objectionproof.ai, and we're gonna be talking about, I guess, the future.   Does that sound about right?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (01:36) Yeah, I would say that's very, very relevant, even more acutely today than normal. Yes.   Jason Hull (01:42) So we are in the middle of this insane AI revolution. know, AI is taking over quickly. Everybody's talking about all the jobs that are going to go away. Everybody's playing with chat GPT. It's becoming like their second brain. We're all maybe getting a little dumber because of it. Who knows? But we're also getting more more capabilities.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (01:59) Yeah.   Jason Hull (02:03) It's all speeding up so quickly even before we started. I'm like, I just tried this tool and you're like, have you heard of this tool? And like, there's just so many tools out there. before we get into all that, Steve, tell us a little bit, give us a little background on you as an entrepreneur and how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and what led to objection proof.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (02:26) Yeah, so it's going to be a long, secretive road because I got into real estate in 2005. So, you know, I did the good, you know, the, the get good grades so can get a good job deal. Right. I all that. was an engineer. I worked at Intel. and I realized fairly quickly, I wasn't manageable. And so, I had to, I had to find something else where I could work for myself. I read rich dad, poor dad from that. It's like, I got to do real estate, but.   I didn't take the advice quite right because I became a realtor in 07, not a good time. So that was a major, major humbling experience. I did some short sales, which are relevant again today. I a list of properties for banks, eventually started my own brokerage. You know, when the bank, when the foreclosure started dying down, became, my own brokerage. Did pretty well. had almost 1 % or we had 1 % market share for a very, short period of time. In the Phoenix market, one of every 100 transactions went through our brokerage.   then, I started buying houses, cash started wholesaling, did some flipping, started a podcast disruptors, which is where most people know me from. And then along the way I started a sales training program, started a title company, did some mortgage joint ventures. and then where we are today is AI. I probably sound very ADHD. I promise you, I don't have it.   I'm just always chasing the next object, which is very much a symptom of ADHD. But I can sit down and focus for long periods of time. It's just that I'm an entrepreneur, I started out as entrepreneur, and it wasn't until the last two, three years that I've actually learned how to actually sit down and focus. So that's how we got here.   Jason Hull (03:58) Okay, yeah.   All right, cool. So now that you know how to focus, what are you focused on?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (04:05) Our focus is at this point more than half of my work schedule, which is more than 50 hours a week, right? It's probably like 60 or 70, is on AI. And the reason why is because things are changing so fast and the things we're trying to do are so innovative. And everyone says that, right? But like We are building out an AI agent that can actually run sales.   And so that is something that a lot of people have promised is something we're actually doing. Now, it's not going to buy a house. Is that going to convince a landlord to allow you to do property management? You're still going to have to do the heavy lifting. But what it can do is initiate the conversation, right? So if someone fills out a form, AI can instantly, 99.9 % uptime, right, because it's all technology now, call the prospect, ask questions, book an appointment.   for you, the business owner or salesperson, to actually run your sales process. So we can actually book appointments. It sounds real. You can't tell it's AI. Well, if you're really, really deep in the AI world, you could probably tell it's AI. But most people can't tell it's AI. And so it actually sounds like you're having a conversation with another human being. And it took a lot of effort to make that happen.   Jason Hull (05:22) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (05:23) So that's where a core, a very, very heavy percentage of our detention is today.   Jason Hull (05:28) Got it. Yeah. I've started playing around with it. I haven't pulled the trigger to actually have AI agents calling or cold calling my prospects. I'm a little nervous about doing that.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (05:36) Mm-hmm.   It's a there's there's elements of leap of faith, right? But you can also test it. You know, we have a if you want to, you know, give it out, we have like a way to opt in for AI to call you so you can hear for yourself what it sounds like. It's not perfect, right? Like the we launched it on August 1st to all our existing clients. So, you know, not that long ago. ⁓ And we're learning about bugs that we weren't aware existed as we're testing it.   Jason Hull (05:59) Yeah.   Yeah.   Right. Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:06) because that's how new this is, right? So we're still iterating   and getting better all the time.   Jason Hull (06:10) Yeah, got it. OK, cool. Well, that's that's the future. I mean, the amazing thing is. I just signed up for an AI tool like this last weekend and they had this chat bot on the home page that you click talk and it's like a voice, it talks to you and it can hear you talk and it was in the voice of one of the principals of the company. And it was like really good. I don't know if they use 11 labs to do the voice or whatever.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:29) Yeah.   Right.   Mm-hmm. It's probably   11 labs, so that would be my guess.   Jason Hull (06:40) But   yeah, it was like his voice and I could ask it anything. I was asking like, it do AI, like can it do API integrations with HubSpot and how would it connect to this? And it was like giving me, yeah, you could do this and this is how it would work and this way. And I was like, there was no question I could ask it, it didn't know. And it knew everything about the tool. I could ask all sorts of questions about its capabilities and it's like, nope, we don't have that functionality but you could do it this way. And I was like, I was like.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:53) All right.   Jason Hull (07:07) I felt like it knew more than any salesperson at their company I could have talked to.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:12) Oh, 100%. Yeah.   Jason Hull (07:14) And so I was really blown away. was like, I I spend hours asking questions because they had, it was like, you have to pay for the year for this tool, right? So I was like, I'm not going to pay for the year for a tool. If I don't know, like I can't trial it or anything. So I was like, I'm asking every question and because it could answer every question I could throw at it with ease. I got all my answers asked and nobody there had to spend any human labor time to talk to me. And I signed up.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:22) Yeah. ⁓   Jason Hull (07:42) It was pretty wild. And I'm like, wait a second, could I do this? Can my clients do this? Yeah. But yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:48) ⁓ You can answer   all the questions. That's not a sales thing, right? Because we have a philosophy that sales is an emotional process, not logical process. So it can answer all the questions. It can remove a lot of the obstacles. But someone still needs to either sell a story or a dream. Or our philosophy is can we ask Jason enough questions.   Jason Hull (07:55) Yes.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:09) where Jason can formulate his own dream and decide to purchase himself. Because the thing we talk about is we don't sell. We get prospects to sell themselves. And so the one thing that AI cannot do just yet is to get you to sell yourself so that you're willing to sign a contract or pull out a credit card. The thing about entrepreneurs, business owners, and salespeople, the reason why we're such great buyers is because we tell ourselves great stories.   Jason Hull (08:18) Yes, totally true.   Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:34) The   general public is not as good at telling ourselves as great as stories. And so they don't need someone to facilitate that conversation to get them to pull the trigger.   Jason Hull (08:42) you   Yeah, I've really followed Jeremy Miner's kind of new model of selling sort of formula is NEPQ stuff. And because I noticed sales was getting harder and harder, like people didn't trust. And we're like in this post trust era, nobody trusts anything anymore. so, you know, everything's fake. Like is everybody's perception, especially since the pandemic, everybody got a little bit burned, you know, in the last several years. We're like, everybody's trying to trick us like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.   Exactly.   Mm-hmm.   Everyone has an agenda. Yeah.   Jason Hull (09:10) And nobody has our best interests at heart. Everybody has   an agenda. And I'm actually working on a book right now called the Golden Bridge Formula, which is my philosophy in selling, which is basically if you can showcase how, if I am purely selfish and I'm achieving what I want out of life, I can show how it benefits you, my prospect. And so everybody can trust our motives. If the default assumption in sales is that your motive is to get their money.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (09:19) All right.   are mutually aligned.   Jason Hull (09:34) which is a really crappy sort of motive, right? But I have something I want more than money, right? Which relates to my purpose in life. And so we teach our clients how to build that golden bridge and how to do that. So I think it'll be really interesting to see when people start to build. I think that's the thing is it would take some real intelligence from, you know, a human that understands empathy and understands this.   question-based selling in order to build out AI bots that can do it. Well, I don't know, but we'll see.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:04) I would estimate we're probably about 12 months out because we can do it pretty well right now, but we can't do it well with latency and enough information. So like when we're scheduling appointments, like the reason is not to schedule an appointment. There's only a handful of objections, right? But when we're doing real estate,   Jason Hull (10:14) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:24) there's a lot more questions that need to be answered. And also there's all sorts of different creative ways we can solve the problem, right? Like, you know, the traditional buying land creatively is like, all right, Jason, look, you can pick price, you can pick timeframe, you can pick payments, but you can't pick all three, right? We're not quite there yet, because the dimensions of how you can negotiate a real estate transaction.   Jason Hull (10:40) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:47) It's substantial, right? It could be like, what's most important to them? Is it the depreciation? Is it the tax consequences? Is it the appreciation? Is it the cashflow? Is it I need to hide my taxes, right? Like what is your agenda? And so like AI doesn't have all the information today.   Jason Hull (11:02) Hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:04) But I imagine 12 months from now, we can have enough data, can have AI figure all that out.   Jason Hull (11:10) Yeah, I would think so. okay. Well, tell us about objection proof. Like what is it?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:17) Okay. So, before we get into that, I've been a sales trainer for more than six years now. So we've been coaching the top, house buyers across the country. You know, I'm in Collector Genius, I'm in boardroom and family mastermind. And so like, I work with the biggest and best operators across the country. And as I was looking at it, we've trained hundreds of sales teams and we've trained thousands of salespeople. And so when we talk about our AI tool, it's really just leveling up what already existed.   Jason Hull (11:29) Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:45) And so earlier this year, we had three different individuals. We Stephanie Biders, the left main, Brad Chandler with Express Home Buyers, and then Casey Ryan, another really successful wholesaler in Vegas. All three of them, in a course of days, pulled me aside and said, hey, Steve, can you create an AI tool that does this? Hey, Steve, can you create an AI tool that does that? And the things they were asking for was an AI tool that can do automatic call reviews.   Right, because there's nothing more frustrating as a business owner than to sit down and listen to call reviews, right? I'd rather cold call than listen to a call review. And so, ⁓ so can you automate the call reviews? Especially if it's bad calls, yes. Right, and so can we automate call reviews? all right, so I set out to figure out how to do that. The other problem was like, how do I know my new salesperson is now ready to take leads I'm paying for?   Jason Hull (12:20) Right.   Right, especially if it's mad calls.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (12:43) You hire a salesperson, you onboard and you train them. When are they actually ready for leads that you're spending three, $400 for? Okay, so let's create a roleplay bot that can measure the quality. And then the last thing is how can we have our salespeople train every day on your ideal sales process? So again, the same idea with a roleplay bot is that you can call it every single day and train on it. So we created that.   Jason Hull (12:44) Right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (13:12) earlier this year and that's been growing like gangbusters. Right. And then the thing again, we just launched this past week or week and a half now is an AI lead manager, which takes it from like someone that fills out an inquiry on the web form to calling them within seconds, right? To talk to them, to schedule an appointment. And the great thing about AI is that it has zero call reluctance. And I can tell you in my own personal experience as the one that created this tool.   Jason Hull (13:30) Yeah.   Yes.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (13:40) When I built it out, I forgot to iterate, like this is super nerdy stuff, right? But like, hey, call three times and stop, right? But I didn't get the counter right, so it always started zero every time I went through the loop. It called me 15 times in a row before I figured out how to shut it off, right? So it's got zero call reluctance. Oh yeah, if you said it, it'll call you 100 times a row, 1,000 times a row, no fear.   Jason Hull (14:01) It's very persistent, yeah.   Well, you know,   that's super interesting because I saw a video recently from Alex Hermosy and I've worked with him. I've been in masterminds with him and he said that he, one of his partner companies that he invests in, they had a 400 % increase in their close rate just by hiring one person to call every new lead within 60 seconds of the lead coming in. 400 % increase in deals close. And I'm like,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (14:26) Mm-hm. Yeah. Right.   Jason Hull (14:31) That speed to lead is a significant thing. So I've been thinking about the same exact thing. I'm like, can connect Sinflow to HubSpot or can I do something to get some sort of phone agent to like call a new lead instantly? Because it's really difficult to get my team to do that. They might be in the middle of something. They might be making calls right then, you know? And so, yeah, 60 seconds.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (14:46) They're humans.   They can be at a sales appointment,   they can be in the bathroom, they can be in the car driving back from an appointment. Yeah, exactly.   Jason Hull (14:55) It can be late at night, like when the lead comes in, you know, and I don't know,   maybe somebody's filling out a lead form at one in the morning. I don't know if they'd answer the phone, but like call them and text them an email and maybe something happens. don't know.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:08) Exactly. Yeah, so that's the problem we seek to solve and I would say we did a pretty good job of it.   Jason Hull (15:14) Nice. Okay. Very cool. So yeah, super cool. So mean, this is the future and you know, I'm sure now because AI allows us to innovate with AI even faster, like it's, it's snowballing. Like it's just speeding up rapidly. It's like, now you can go to your AI and say, Hey, I want to figure out how to do this, solve this problem. And it's like, here's a bunch of ideas, which like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:25) Mm-hmm. Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Jason Hull (15:38) Evaluate these ideas which ones are the best ideas and it's like this one will give you the the biggest return, right? Yeah, so it's pretty wild. So I think I did in working on my book over the weekend in a day. I probably did what would have taken 90 days of research in it like It just months of research like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah,   the time compression is just absolutely outrageous. The amount of time AI can save you is just off the charts. I built out the tool. Now there's Ian Ross from an organization. He's the AI Whisperer. He's been training the AI boss for two years now. But I built everything around it. And if I were to try to do everything I did without AI, three years maybe to get it done, right?   to learn React and SuperBase and all this other stuff, right? To learn how to compress audio files and automatically. And it took me months to get a product. We have, we're looking at, have 130 clients now using our tool. And it's something that started less than six months ago. So yeah, AI is showing you how to use AI.   Jason Hull (16:43) Wow. Yeah.   Yeah, I mean, it's scratching a super strong   niche. Like if you go on Google Trends and put in AI and it like, just watch, it's like nothing and then it's just going crazy and it's surpassing everything right now. So let me share a quick word from our sponsor real quick for this episode. So our sponsor is Cover Pest. Cover Pest is the easy and seamless way to add on demand pest control for your resident benefit package.   Residents love the simplicity of submitting a service request and how affordable it is compared to traditional pest control options. Investors love knowing that their property is kept pest free and property managers love getting their time back and making more revenue per door. Simply put, Cover Pest is the easiest way to handle pest control issues at all of your properties. To learn more and to get special DoorGrow pricing, go to the website coverpest.com slash door grow.   All right, so Steve, let's get back into talking about AI. you know, you're focused on the sales side of things. What do you see as the future of what's gonna be happening with sales and what are your team working on developing next?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (17:57) I mean, the things we're working on next is just getting to the actual sales conversation where, you know, for someone that needs to their house for cash, right, which is our core audience, is how do we get it from beginning of a web form all the way into an actual transaction to actually get assigned a contract? That is going to be the next step. I think we can incorporate transaction management into it.   Right? The goal here is to get to a point where you basically have a handful of salespeople. One person that can handle the acquisitions, the buying of the houses. One person can handle the dispositions. And one person still to really talk to homeowners as scheduled appointments because the reality is AI doesn't replace everybody. AI just makes everybody better. As matter of fact, in half an hour from now, we're actually doing a training internally where our guy Ian, our AI whisperer,   is going to be teaching everyone in our organization prompt engineering. And the reason why that is, is that everyone needs to be using AI. Because if you're not, the amount of productivity everyone in organization, since we started using AI, is at least three times better, at least, if not more. And so every person that's not using AI is expensive now, because their amount of productivity is less than a third of what the other guy who is using AI.   Jason Hull (18:59) Right.   Right. So you could easily 3x the output if you just understand how you can leverage AI in some clever use cases.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (19:18) Exactly. Right. So if you look at that and then the reality is if I can get it down to just the best salespeople in my organization and AI everything else, everyone else that's not using it, their marketing costs, their overhead and everything else is just going to be more than mine to do the same amount of work, which in a very short period of time isn't that big a deal. But if I can reduce my overhead by 10 % compared to you and we're running the same business model.   Next month I have 10 % more to spend on marketing. And the month after that. And month after that. And my sales is only gonna grow. So we're gonna see a time where those that aren't on board are gonna find themselves unable to compete just because of margins alone. We had a, there's a colleague of mine, someone I look up to, I respect a lot. And we had a conversation where she let four people, she let go of four people earlier this year.   Jason Hull (19:50) Right. Yeah. And it compounds.   Right.   to compete, totally.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:13) Each person, six figure salary. So, she had to let go four people. And the reason why was that AI can do their job, right?   Jason Hull (20:24) Yeah, I six figure salary is saving like what half a million? Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:27) almost half a mil, right? And she's   like, and it sucks because she cares about these people. They've been with her as she built out the company, right? But right now her competition is some kid who lives at home with no expenses. She can't compete with that kid if she has all this expense on her payroll. It sucks. So everyone in our company is going to have to learn how to use AI to do their job more effectively, more efficiently. And so that's, so I would say on top of   Jason Hull (20:31) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:54) the sales part is that everyone, everyone is getting looked at. There's a person in organization, I'm like, how are you getting so much done? Because she has stepped up and picked up three other people's in the last year. She picked up three other people's jobs. And then I talked to her last week, like, what are you doing? And she just showed me her chat GPT that's always open. That's it. She's just picking up other people's jobs because she's able to do it all day.   Excelled at using it and I think that's just that's just the future and this is not nothing new that people haven't heard before Really? What I would say is there should be a wake-up call if you're not listening as a matter of fact I had a really uncomfortable conversation last week Because I train acquisition managers, which is sales disposition managers, which is moving the properties Lead managers we were booking the appointments and then sales managers right how to manage sells people get the most out of them the lead manager call I was like, hey look   how many of you guys are paying attention to what I'm saying on social media? And like maybe 10%, 12 % raise their hands. I was like, okay, if you're not paying attention on what on social media, then this needs to be your wake up call. I have created an AA tool that is directly threatening your job. I am training you and I'm also creating a tool that might compete against you, that will probably compete against you. And so the reality is,   Jason Hull (22:08) or real life.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (22:13) A, it's awesome you're on this call, because you're training becoming one of the better ones across the country. And you have to have this mindset that I'm going to be irreplaceable. So you have to be the best, because this is what you're competing against. So I'm not here to say your job is at stake, but you should operate as if it is, because if you're not, you're going to get replaced. That was an uncomfortable conversation.   Jason Hull (22:30) Yeah, it was at least a year ago when AI was   starting to just sort of peak, you know, come up on everybody's radar. I gave my team, heard of, saw Alex Hormozi like give his team the task of like trying to replace themselves with AI. And so I said that to my team and several were so offended. They're like, you trying to replace us? I'm like, but that's reality. So I was like, try it. And I got some like.   of weak responses because they weren't really focused on it. But now I think everybody can see like this is coming and nobody thought that the most expensive jobs would be the first thing to be going. Lawyers, like doctors, like a lot of this a lot of the data, the research, the stuff that takes a lot of knowledge. It's hard to beat something that can pull in everything, you know, and and then really all these specialists that are so specialized in things, they're   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (23:05) No, no one saw that coming.   Jason Hull (23:23) you know, AI is probably going to eat their lunch and then, you know, and then like really high level copywriting jobs, high level graphic design work, like all of this also. And so it really is becoming a future in which those that are the most creative in thought and how to leverage AI, the creators, and they're going to be AI creators that can leverage AI and know what tools.   are available and they're staying up on that. Those are going to be the ones that are the most valuable team members because they have access to infinite knowledge. Knowledge is no longer a super valuable resource. It's, and you can just get it. We've got the internet, there's tons of it out there, but the people that can figure out how do I isolate what knowledge is needed right now? How do I leverage AI to like figure it out? How do I, you know, then feed it into some sort of agentic system or create some sort of agent or some sort of chat or prompt or rule to like,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:00) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (24:19) you know, get the output that I need. These are the people that are going to, you know, be leading the way. And so it's really interesting.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:27) Yeah, the creators.   I've been looking at it. we've been using Working Genius internally as well as for hiring. So if you guys that are listening aren't familiar with it, it's created by Patrick Lancioni who wrote like, what is it? ⁓ Amazing books. was, shoot. Anyway, Patrick Lancioni is an amazing, amazing author, wrote some amazing books.   Jason Hull (24:41) He's written a bunch of good books.   That's that from right here.   I've got, where are they? Let's see.   Oh, he wrote The Motive, Getting Naked, The Ideal Team Player, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Death by Meeting. Yeah, he's got some great books.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:50) The advantage is one of them, but there's like...   by this function as a team, yeah.   Yeah, FIDAS   function seems huge, huge one, right? So he wrote working genius. And working genius breaks down to six letters, right? Widget, which is coincidental, I suppose. So what it stands for is wondering, inventor, galvanizer, discerning, enabler, and tenacity. And so most people are two of them as an energy.   It gives you energy, two of them are like it drains you, right? So like I don't like doing work. So T and E is just that for me, right? But I do like to invent and I like to discern. And then Ian likes to invent and likes to galvanize. But the key here is we're both inventors according to Working Genius. And I think right now in this world with AI, it's going to be the people that have the W, the wondering, the inventiveness. I think those are the two they're going to do the most.   Jason Hull (25:30) you   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (25:49) the most well in this new world because we can automate a lot of other things. We can automate the mundane tasks. That's what the agents are for. So it'll be interesting. AI can discern to some degree. It can't galvanize. So we still need someone to lead the charge and get everyone to storm the.   Jason Hull (26:00) Mm.   Thank   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:13) stormed enemy territory. But yeah, I think to your point, the creators, I look at it as everyone that's got the wondering and inventiveness is gonna do really well on this new AI world.   Jason Hull (26:25) Okay, yeah. Those things sound fun to me. That sounds like way more fun to be spending my time on doing those kind of things than most anything else you do in business. And I love that you said, you know, figuring out which things are kind of your, give you energy or take away your energy. So one of the things we have our clients do is we give them a time study that we've created that.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:32) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (26:49) They do a time study for like two weeks and they track which things are plus signs or which things are minus signs. Just to figure out, because the easiest way I can get them towards more output or towards more joy or more fulfillment in their business or more freedom or offloading the right stuff is just to figure out which things are their minus signs and which things are tactical so we can get those off their plates so they're focused more on the strategic things and the plus signs, which usually are connected. So for entrepreneurs, yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:54) Huge.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (27:17) And so, yeah, I think that's going to be the powerful thing is that if people can become conscious of the things that are draining them, then you can just ask the question. You can go ask AI the question, how do I get rid of this? How do get this off my plate? Give me some really good ideas. Yeah. And so we've got this magical thing that it's like we've got the magic genie of answers that can just give us any answer to anything at any time. But you have to ask good questions.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (27:30) All right. It really is that simple these days.   You have to ask good questions, and then the thing that you have to make sure, and I don't know how to do this, is to make sure you don't give up your critical thinking abilities. I think that that muscle is going to atrophy pretty fast in this new world. The ability to actually ask good questions and then filter, is that actually a good answer? Does that make sense? Or are we just accepting the answers? Because you can see, if you just accept things, if you just accept data without questioning it,   Jason Hull (27:56) Mm.   Yeah, it'd be pretty destructive.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (28:08) you're going to atrophy pretty fast, I think, of your critical thinking skills.   Jason Hull (28:11) Yeah. And that's where you hear the horror stories of AI, like people killing themselves because AI told them to, know, stuff like this, where they're just like, they think AI is like, becomes some sort of superpower when it's really just reflecting them. Yeah. It's just reflecting them and their, you know, psychoses, I guess. So I think, yeah, you know, I've noticed that, yeah, sometimes chat GPT, for example, can be very agreeable.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (28:17) Yeah.   It's not all knowing all powerful, it just appears that way.   Yeah, sad.   Jason Hull (28:36) It's like, that's brilliant. You're the best. Like it's giving you compliments. like, yeah. You know, but the reality is, yeah, you have to ask it to challenge you. And you have to like say, what are the flaws in this or what evaluate or, and so I'll have the one AI tool evaluate what another AI tool gives me. I'll say, which of these ideas should I actually do to my offer document or what should I change or what should I improve and which things are not a good idea?   And it rates them for me. Like Claude will be like, this is like, these are the ones you should do. These ones maybe, and these ones definitely don't. I would recommend these. And I'm like, cool, do that. Right? And so, yeah. And so I think we have to, we have to have a brain that's creative enough to see the potential problems and to ask the right questions and to challenge things. because yeah, otherwise you may just   be led down a rabbit hole of your own self-reflection, that's a blind spot.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (29:37) Mm-hmm. It's the same dangers we see with TikTok. It just sends you down the wrong rabbit holes.   Jason Hull (29:43) Right. Because the algorithm is just giving you more of what you look at. you're like, man, I'm really, it's like, you know, that prurient interest where you just can't stop looking at the car crashes that are driving, you know, driving by. then the algorithm's like, cool, they want to see more car crashes. And you're like, wait, why is this awful? Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, that's the difference between AI and real life. so, you talk about creating a self-managing sales team.   What the self-managing sales team because having managing a sales team is pain in the ass.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (30:16) Yeah, so the self-managing sales team, we're using AI to power it. So it still requires a person to actually care about the other salespeople, right? So the big thing is like, what are you meeting with them? Are you finding out what's important to them? What is their big, hairy, audacious goal, right? So that's the first and foremost. We've got to figure out what their big, hairy, audacious goals are. Then we've got to quantify it. How much money do you actually need to make to accomplish that, right? And then we reverse the math, which isn't new, but   Jason Hull (30:17) They can't.   Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (30:46) The newer wrinkle here is like we got to tie it to the big hair audacious goal. And then we'd look at, right, how many transactions do you need to close? Okay. And then if we need to close as many transactions in the year, then in real estate, how many contracts do we need to go under in order to have that many closings? Right? Because unfortunately it's not a one-to-one. So then how many contracts we have, then how many appointments do we need to run per week to hit that many?   Jason Hull (30:54) Hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (31:15) closings per month. And then we work into how many conversations do we need to have per week to have that many appointments per week. And then in order to have, then we figure out how many conversations we need to have per day. And we back it all the way up, right? And then.   Jason Hull (31:30) So conversations   to appointments to contracts to transactions to hit the B-Hack. Okay, right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (31:36) Yeah, yes.   It has to work that way. And the sales manager or business owner needs to care about their people to actually care about those goals. Because if you don't care about those goals alongside of them, none of this matters. You got to care about your salespeople, But once they care about our salespeople, now we can use AI to track and hold them accountable to their metrics. And so one of the things that we have is if anyone's off, we can report this.   And you can do this with VA's and systems and this and that. The things that we've added recently with AI is that in our organization, after every single sales call, AI does a call review. And after it does a call review, it pushes it into Google Chat. So we use Google Chat, you can use Slack, you can use Teams, but we use Google Chat. It pushes into Google Chat where all the salespeople are in. And so it says, hey, Steve on this call got a 51 out of 100.   Everyone can see it. There's no hiding. Yeah, and so then after it gives me that review, it gives me the score, it gives me all the reasons why, I need to, as a salesperson, go in there and comment on it. I agree with this, I disagree with this, here's my takeaway from it, here's what I'm gonna work on. So, that's a super tight feedback loop. Now, instead of a call review that happens maybe once a week, or maybe once a month, or never,   Jason Hull (32:33) Yeah,   Right. Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (32:58) our sales guys are being coached in the moment where they're at in real time. Right? So they're self-managed because they have to go and respond to it. And here's the other thing too, like marketing has always been, or marketing should be accountable. you run your business right, we should know, hey, we spent our X dollars on this. How many leads did we get? How many contracts did we get? What was the revenue that came from this lead source for this marketing channel? What is the return on investment or return on ad spend?   Jason Hull (33:03) Yeah, that's great.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (33:25) We can be pretty good with marketing if we care. Accounting, it's really easy to tell when accounting is screwed up. It didn't zero out. Pretty easy to, you know, black and white accounting. Sales has always been leads went in and there's this black box and then contracts came out. We've eliminated that black box, right? Everyone's accountable to everyone else. So if you're in there,   Jason Hull (33:50) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (33:51) And you can see, like you're putting up 50s over and over again out of 100, either you're going to self-select out or you're going to get better. But there's nowhere safe to hide in our sales company anymore. And that's how we created a self-managing sales team. Everyone can hold everyone else accountable. Jason can call Steve out, Steve can call Jason out. Right? So that's how we've had that. And then on top of that, our AI tool also has trends. So we can say like, hey, in the last seven days, here's where Jason's really struggling. Coach him on this. Or in the last 30 days, right? So we have one guy.   His struggle consistently is isolating the real objection. That's one of our guys. The other guy, his challenge consistently is not letting a difficult statement just sit there and just ruminate for like five seconds. We'll all agree, yeah, we gotta let it sit there. So those are two different cells, guys, we have two different challenges, but I know that because   Jason Hull (34:36) Right, he jumps in and has to solve it too quick.   Right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (34:47) every single call is being reviewed. And that's how we build our self-managed Excel team.   Jason Hull (34:51) Wow, yeah, it's really cool. I love the idea of, normally in the past, historically, I wasn't really a big fan of BHAGs, like big hairy audacious goals, because it was unrealistic, I thought. But I recently was in Mexico and I was hanging out with Ben Hardy. And he wrote this amazing new book called The Science of Scaling. And he talks about the importance of having impossible goals. And unless the goal is impossible, because he says if a goal is realistic,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (35:13) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (35:17) then that means basically you're operating on your current limited level of thinking and your brain has nothing to work on. And as good as AI is, our brain really is like a quantum computer. It's like this masterful supercomputer that can create whole worlds. Our unconscious mind can do amazing things in the background. But unless we give our brain impossible goals to achieve, our brain doesn't even work to formulate new paths or new ways of thinking. It gets us out of our current prison of thinking. And so   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (35:24) Nothing to strive for.   Jason Hull (35:45) This is where I think having really big impossible goals gives you a completely different path than a linear realistic goal. so, you know, I think what I've noticed with AI, and you can test this with AI, like just say, if I want to get from zero to a thousand Instagram followers in a year, what would be my path? And it's gonna give you a pretty predictable linear path. But if you say, how do I get to a million followers in a month, for example?   super impossible, how could that be possible? You're gonna get a completely different path, right? And so the path, you know, having better goals or unrealistic or impossible goals allows your brain in the background to come up with new ideas. So I came back from Mexico, I was like, how could it close 100 deals in a month instead of 10? It's impossible. How could I do that? And I figured it out. It took me a week and a half, my brain just figured it out. I'm like, I have to...   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (36:18) True. Yeah.   Jason Hull (36:43) cancel 60 to 70 % of my calls. Anyone like doesn't confirm I have to get them off my plate. I have to have my setters feed them through a different funnel. And so we have a slow lane, middle lane, and I'm fast lane. I would have to, so we re-engineered our entire sales process and I did it in like a day. I did it in a day, maybe two. And I rebuilt everything because I had to create a completely different path in how we were doing it. Cause my current thinking,   well, my previous level of thinking realistic in order to get my company to be at X millions of dollars, you know, bigger than it is now. I was like, I'm going to have to hire like, it was a linear path. I'm like, I'm doing X. I'm going to have to hire 10 closers, 30 setters. And like it was, yeah. And I'm going to have to build this team. And I didn't even want to do it because that sounded so uncomfortable. And now we closed just about as many deals last month as we did the month before, but   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (37:27) Yeah.   Jason Hull (37:39) our sales calls, at least for me, were like a tiny, tiny fraction because we had made the process so much more efficient because without really, you know, impossible goals, we optimize for the wrong things. And I was optimizing for just increasing this linear difficult path instead of looking at how could I eliminate 90 % of the calls and still have the same close rate? That's a completely different path, right?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (37:45) Yeah.   Yeah, well, I think you're asking your previous questions with the brand you had, right? And so we need to ask different questions with a different, with, yeah.   Jason Hull (38:12) length, which was a brain that was focused on reality. And reality kept   me stuck in the same place for years. And so now I see a path where we can get much larger, much quicker, but it's because I changed my brain's focus into the playground of impossible goals instead of looking at realistic goals, which usually are just a punishment tool that we measure ourselves by.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (38:34) And it's uninspiring.   We're not getting out of bed for realistic goals. And also, in sales, like,   We get punched in the mouth all day every day. Why would you not want to build your dream life? If we're going to do the difficult things, it should be incredibly rewarding.   Jason Hull (38:44) Ahem.   Yeah. Yeah, we get a lot of people coming into the property management industry from the real estate industry, because they're tired of the hunt and chase of deals and getting punched in the mouth. They're like, how do I build a residual income subscription model business that scales and grows, that's systemizable and do that. But a lot of our clients have a brokerage and they have property management, like most of them. They do both. But the   And once the property management business is healthy, it feeds them plenty of real estate deals because investors are always doing deals.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (39:23) Right. Yeah.   Jason Hull (39:24) So anyway, I know, Steve, maybe we should hang out later and come up with some cool ideas together. But yeah, this is really fun stuff to chat about. you know, this probably we could talk about AI probably all day. It's like a big focus of mine right now as well. I'm just super geeking out on it. What, you know, what maybe   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (39:30) Absolutely, I'm game for it.   Yeah, I bet.   Jason Hull (39:47) Big takeaway, would you like everybody to get from listening to this podcast episode and then how could people, who are you looking for to connect with objection proof? And, cause I'm sure some of my audience are your audience as well. And, and how can they get in touch with you?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (40:03) Yeah, so I think the big takeaway, I mean, we already beaten it quite a bit, but I just want to really emphasize, this is a pivotal moment in time. This is like the dot com era, right? This is like when things started getting online. There are going be a handful of people that are going to make a stupid amount of money in this period of time. And so the same question I always ask is, why not you? Right?   Jason Hull (40:25) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (40:26) So like if you're afraid just start because the reality is like AI will coach you on how to use AI. So just start. I'll say that and then you know the if someone wants to check out what we do I have a URL objectionproof.ai you can upload any sales call through text. It's gonna be a text file. It can be transcription. It can be WAV, M4A, MP3, whatever you can upload it. There's no charge you can use as many times you want. My team hates when I say that but   You upload it for free and it will evaluate your sales call, will email you the results. That's a free tool we have. Also, if anyone wanted to role play with our boss, you can text roleplay, that's one word, to the phone number 33777. And if anyone wants to check out our lead manager, you can text AI space caller, AI caller, to the same number 33777. Again, both of those are free. We're not charging anything for those.   It really is just a demonstration. All three are real demonstration of our actual product in action. And then we give that for free. Now you are going to have to talk to someone on my team. But you'll hear what our salespeople sound like as well. Or you can just ignore it. Either way is fine. But if nothing else, just check it out because you can see the direction we're heading. look, I've heard people say this over and over again. I always kind of like roll my eyes when they say it. But it's still true.   Jason Hull (41:34) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (41:47) The version of AI today is the worst version you'll ever deal with. Because it's only getting better.   Jason Hull (41:51) Yeah.   Yeah, and it's crazy. It's really insane how quick things are changing. It's just speeding up faster and faster. So, all right, well, Steve, great having you on the show. Appreciate you hanging out with me. Those of you watching, if you are a property management business owner, you've ever felt stuck or stagnant, you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We can help.   Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together and guess with AI. Bye everyone.

Operaspymaster you may ask? Read on and listen to this episode. In this powerful and multifaceted episode of Unstoppable Mindset, we welcome Kay Sparling, former opera singer, PTSD survivor, and now debut novelist—as she shares her incredible life journey from international stages to the shadowy world of espionage fiction. Kay talks about the creation of her first novel, Mission Thaw, a gripping spy thriller based on her own real-life experiences volunteering with refugees in post-Cold War Europe. Kay and Michael discuss the inspiration behind her protagonist, CIA agent Caitlin Stewart, and how real-world trauma and service led Kay to use fiction as both a vehicle for healing and a call to action on the modern crisis of human trafficking. This is a conversation that transcends genres—music, espionage, activism, and resilience—all converging through the unstoppable spirit of a woman who refuses to stay silent. About the Guest: Kay Sparling was raised in the Midwest. At the age of seven, she began her professional singing career as Gretl in “The Sound of Music” and she continued to perform through high school. After graduation Kay attended University of Kansas and earned a BME in music education and a minor in Vocal Performance. She then attended graduate school in opera voice performance for one year at UMKC Conservatory of Music. She was awarded a grant to finish my graduate studies in Vienna, Austria. From there she won an apprenticeship at the Vienna State Opera. After moving to NYC to complete her second apprenticeship, Kay lived in Germany, Austria, and Italy for many years. In 1999 Kay returned to NYC and continued singing opera and became a cantor for the NYC diocese. After 9/11, she served as a cantor at many of the funeral and memorial masses for the fallen first responders. In 2003, Kay moved from NYC to the upper Midwest and started a conservatory of Music and Theatre where her voice students have been awarded numerous prestigious scholarships and won many competitions. In 2020, the pandemic shut down her conservatory, so she began training to be a legal assistant and now works in workers compensation. Back in 2013, Kay had started writing a journal as a PTSD treatment. She was encouraged to extend the material into a novel. After much training and several drafts, Mission Thaw was published in 2024. Kay is currently writing the second book in the Kaitlyn Stewart Spy Thriller Series. Ways to connect with Kay: Website: https://www.kaysparlingbooks.com X: https://x.com/MissionThaw/missionthaw/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/missionthaw.bsky.social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/505674375416879 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kay-sparling-8516b638/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missionthaw/ Litsy: https://www.litsy.com/web/user/Mission%20Thaw About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and our guest today is a very fascinating individual. I was just teasing her a little bit about her email address, which is operaspy master@gmail.com I'm telling you, don't cross her. That's all I gotta say. Anyway, we'll, we'll get into all of that. But I really am glad that she is with us. Kay Sparling is a fascinating woman who's had an interesting career. She's written, she's done a number of things. She's used to be an opera, gosh, all sorts of stuff. So anyway, we'll get to all of it and we'll talk about it. I don't want to give it all away. Where would the fun in that be? Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kay Sparling ** 02:11 Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 we're glad you're here. You're from up in Wisconsin. We were going to do this a couple of weeks ago, but you had all the storms, and it stole your internet and your power away, didn't   Kay Sparling ** 02:23 it? It sure did. Yeah, that was a terrible storm we had.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Yeah, that's kind of no fun. I remember years ago, I was talking to somebody on the phone. We were doing a sales call, and he said, I might not be able to stay on the phone because we're having a really serious storm, and he said it is possible that the lightning could hit the phone lines, and if it does, it could come in the house. And we talked for a few minutes, and then he said, I'm going to have to hang up, because I just felt a small shock, because the lightning obviously hit the phone line, so we'll have to talk later. And and he was gone. And we did talk later, though he was okay, but still, wow, yeah, there's a lot of crazy weather going on, isn't there? And we were just talking about the, we were just talking about the Canadian wildfires. They're No fun.   Kay Sparling ** 03:15 No, no. Just everywhere is having crazy weather.   Michael Hingson ** 03:20 Well, tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that sort of stuff, and telling me about the the early K   Kay Sparling ** 03:32 Well, growing up, I grew up in a farm community in the in the central Midwest, just you know, right in the middle of the bread basket, you might say, not near where you are now. No no, no further south and in very much agriculture time, I mean skipping ahead. I remember talking to a famous opera conductor when I was an apprentice, and I made some reference, and he goes, Well, how would you know that? And I said, because I grew up on a farm. And he went, Oh, get out here. Nobody makes it, you know, to a major European opera house from a farm. And I went, Well, I did. And later, I asked my mom to send me a picture, because we had had an aerial view taken of our homestead, and it was obvious for miles, all the way around the house and the barn and all, it was just corn fields and soybeans. You know what they showed   Michael Hingson ** 04:40 Illinois, Illinois, and so you showed it to him, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 04:44 I showed it to him, and he was like, well, doggone, you're not lying. Like, No, I wasn't kidding you. I really did.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 It shows how good I really am. See how far I progressed.   Kay Sparling ** 04:55 Well, you know, I was one of these kids. I. At five years old, I my parents took me to see sound and music at the theater, and during the intermission. Now I'm five years old, it's pretty late for me, right? But when we're in the concession stand, I tug at my mom's skirt, and I say, Mom, that's what I want to do. And she looks at me kind of funny, and she's kind of funny, and she's kind of confused. Well, what do you want to do work in a theater? You know, a movie theater? No, no, I want to do what those kids are doing on that on the movie screen. And she was like, Well, honey, you know, that's that's really hard to get somewhere like that. So that was when I was five. And then when I was seven, she just, you know, the all the school and the church were telling her, this kid's got a great voice, and they kept giving me solos and stuff. And so when I was seven, she put me in the Sangamon County Fair Little Miss competition. And of course, my talent was singing, so I just sang away. I really can't remember what I sang, but afterwards, a fellow came up to my parents and introduced himself, and he said that he was there, he had family, not, you know, in the area, and that he had grown up there, but since then, he he was in St Louis, and he said, we are, I'm a scout, and I'm looking, I'm an entertainment Scout, and I'm actually looking for, you know, the von trop children. We're going to do a big production, and we'd love to audition your daughter. Well, we were about, think it was an hour and a half away from St Louis, so my parents are like, wow, that'd be quite a commitment. But long story short, I did it, and that started my professional career. I was the youngest Bon Troy. You know, over cradle, yeah. And so it just went from there. And, you know, it was all Broadway, of course, and I did a lot of church singing, you know, it got to be by the time I was, you know, in high school, people were hiring me for weddings, funerals, all that kind of thing. And so I was a Broadway and sacred singer. Went to college. My parents said, you can't depend on a vocal performance degree. What if things don't work out? You have to have something fall back. So I went into vocal music ed at a very, very good school for that, and also music therapy, and, you know, continue being in their shows. And when I when I graduated, continued the Broadway, and one night I was also singing a little bit of jazz in Kansas City, where I was living, someone approached me. She was a voice teacher at the conservatory there, and that conservatory had an apprenticeship with the Kansas City Lyric Opera. And she said I knew you was an undergrad. My husband works where you, where you went to school, and I have been watching you for a long time. And I wish you quit this nonsense of singing Broadway and jazz and rock and everything and get serious, you know, and try opera. So I thought she was crazy to bring that up, but it wasn't the first time it had been brought up. So I have been teaching for a year, and at the end of that school year, I announced everyone I was going to graduate school and I was going to study opera. And so   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 what were you teaching?   Kay Sparling ** 08:57 I was teaching high school choir, okay, at a very big high school, very, very good choir department.   Michael Hingson ** 09:03 Now, by the way, after doing Gretel, did you ever have any other parts as you grew older in Sound of Music?   Kay Sparling ** 09:11 Okay, that's a very cool question. I am one of the few people that I know that can say I have sang every major role in Sound of Music sometime in my life. Ah, okay, because it was so popular when I was Oh, yeah. And as I would grow older, well now you're going to sing, you know, you just kept graduating up. And then pretty soon I sang quite a few Marias. And then after I was an opera singer. During covid, I was asked to sing Mother Superior. Mother Superior. Yeah, literally, have sung, you know, in a decades long career, I've sung every role in Sound of Music.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Cool. Well, that's great.   10:00 Yeah, so, so, anyway, so   Michael Hingson ** 10:02 you said that you were going to go study opera,   Kay Sparling ** 10:07 and I did a graduate school, and then I got the chance to get an international grant over to Europe, and so I decided to not finish my masters at that time and go over there and finish it, and most of all, importantly, do my first apprenticeship in Europe. And so I thought that was a great opportunity. They were willing. They were going to willing to pay for everything. And I said I would be a fool to turn this down. Yeah, so off I went, and that's kind of the rest of the story. You know, got a lot of great training, left Europe for a while, moved to New York City, trained best coaches and teachers in the world at the Metropolitan Opera and then, you know, launch my career.   Michael Hingson ** 11:04 So you Wow, you, you've done a number of things, of course, going to Europe and being in Vienna and places like that. Certainly you were in the the right place.   Kay Sparling ** 11:16 Yes, yes, definitely. You know, at that time in the in the middle 80s, United States was we had some great opera houses Iran, but we had very few. And it just wasn't the culture that it was in Europe, in Europe. And so, yes, there was a lot more opportunity there, because there was such a culture established there already.   Michael Hingson ** 11:44 So you went off and you did Europe and saying opera, what were you a soprano? Or what were you that sounds like a way a little high for your voice?   Kay Sparling ** 11:59 Well, you have to remember, I'm a senior citizen now. So this is the way it worked for me, because we're talking decades from the age 27 and I quit singing at 63 so that's a very long time to sing opera. So I started out, as you know, there is a voice kind of category, and each one of those, we use a German word for that. It's called Foch, F, A, C, H, and you know, that is determined by the kind of vocal cords you have, and the kind of training and the literature you're singing, and hopefully that all meshes together if you have good coaches and a good agent and such. And I literally have seen so many different Fox lyric, lyric mezzo, then to, very shortly, lyric soprano, and then for a long time, spinto soprano, which would be the Puccini and a lot of them really popular things. And then I was, I felt I was quite lucky that my voice did have the strength and did mature into a Verdi soprano, which is a dramatic soprano, not many of those around. And so that was, that was an endeavor, but at the same time, that was a leg up. And so most of the time in my career, I sang the bigger Puccini, like, let's say Tosca, and I sang a lot of Verdi. So I was an Italian opera singer. I mostly sang in Italian, not to say that I didn't sing in German or French, but I did very little in comparison to the   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Italian Well, there's a lot of good Italian opera out there, although mostly I don't understand it, but I don't speak Italian well.   Kay Sparling ** 14:07 The great thing about most houses now is, you know, you can just look at the back of the seat in front of you, and there's the translation, you know, yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 14:18 doesn't work for me. Being blind, that doesn't work for you. Yeah, that's okay, though, but I like the music, yeah. So how long ago did you quit singing?   Kay Sparling ** 14:32 Um, just about, well, under, just a little under three years ago, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 And why did you quit? This was the right time,   Kay Sparling ** 14:42 senses or what I had a circumstance, I had to have throat surgery. Now it wasn't on my vocal cords, but it was on my thyroid, and unfortunately, the vocal cord nerve. They had to take out some Cyst On. My right thyroid, and then remove it too. And unfortunately, my vocal cords were damaged at that time, I would have probably be singing still now some you know, I mean, because dramatic sopranos just can go on and on and on. One of my mentors was Birgit Nielsen, famous singer from Sweden, and she was in my grandmother's generation, but she didn't, I went to work with her, and she demonstrated at 77 she could still pop out of high C. And I believe, I believe I would have been able to do that too, but you know, circumstances, you know, changed, but that's okay. Yeah, I had sung a long time, and at least I can speak. So I'm just very happy about that.   Michael Hingson ** 15:51 So when you did quit singing, what did you decide to go do? Or, or, How did, how did you progress from there?   Kay Sparling ** 16:01 Well, I had already made a transition where I had come in 2003 to the Midwest. I came back from New York City, where I lived many, many years, and I started a conservatory of music and acting, and then that kind of grew into a whole conservatory of music. So I was also a part time professor here in Wisconsin, and I taught voice, you know, one on one vocal lessons, so high school and college and graduate school, and so I had this huge studio. So when that happened, I wasn't getting to sing a whole lot, because I was much more focused on my students singing me at that point, especially the older ones, professional ones, and so, you know, I just kept teaching and and then I had started this book that I'm promoting now, and so that gave me more time to get that book finished   Michael Hingson ** 17:10 and published. What's the name of the book?   Kay Sparling ** 17:13 The book is called Mission, thaw.   Michael Hingson ** 17:16 Ah, okay, and what is it about   Kay Sparling ** 17:22 mission thaw is feminist spy thriller set at the very end of the Cold War in the late 80s, and the main protagonist is Caitlin Stewart, who it who has went over there to be an opera singer, and soon after she arrives, is intensely recruited by the CIA. They have a mission. They really, really need a prima donna Mozart soprano, which is what Caitlin was, and she had won a lot of competitions and won a grant to go over there, and so they had been vetting her in graduate school in the United States. And soon as she came to Europe, they they recruited her within a couple weeks of her being there, and she, of course, is totally blindsided by that. When they approach her, she had she she recognized that things were not exactly the way they should be, that people were following her, and she was trying to figure out who, are these people and why are they following me everywhere? Well, it ends up being young CIA agents, and so when the head chief and his, you know, the second chief, approach her, you know, she's not real happy, because she's already felt violated, like her privacy has been violated, and so she wasn't really too wonderful of listening to them and their needs. And so they just sort of apprehend her and and throw her in a car, in a tinted window Mercedes, and off they go to a park to talk to her, right? And so it's all like crazy movie to Caitlin. It's like, what is going on here? And, you know, she can tell they're all Americans, and they have dark suits on, even though it's very, very hot, and dark glasses, you know? So everything is just like a movie. And so when they approach her and tell her about what they need her to do, you know, and this would be in addition to the apprentice she is doing that, you know, she just gets up and says, I'm sorry I didn't come over and be in cloak and dagger. A, you know, ring, I'm getting out of here. And as she's walking away, the chief says, Well, what if you could help bring down the Berlin Wall? Well, now that stops her in her tracks, and she turns around. She goes, What are you kidding? I'm just a, you know, an opera apprentice from the Midwest grew up on a farm. What am I gonna do? Hit a high C and knock it down. I mean, what are you talking about?   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Hey, Joshua, brought down the wealth of Jericho, after all. Well, yeah, some   Kay Sparling ** 20:34 later, someone tells her that, actually, but, but anyway, they say, well, sit down and we'll explain what we need you to do. And so the the initial job that Caitlin accepts and the CIA to be trained to do is what they call a high profile information gap. She has a wonderful personality. She's really pretty. She's very fashionable, so she can run with the jet set. And usually the jet set in Europe, the opera jet set is also where all the heads of states hang out, too. And at that time, the the Prime Minister was pretty much banking the Vienna State Opera where she was apprenticing. So he ends up being along with many other Western Austrian businessmen in a cartel of human trafficking. Who they are trafficking are all the the different citizens of the countries that USSR let go. You know, when you know just got to be too much. Remember how, oh yeah, we're going to let you go. Okay? And then they would just pull out. And there was no infrastructure. There was nothing. And these poor people didn't have jobs, they didn't have electricity. The Russian mafia was running in there trying to take, you know, take over. It was, it was chaos. And so these poor people were just packing up what they could to carry, and literally, sometimes walking or maybe taking a train into the first Western European country they could get to. And for a lot of them, just because the geographical area that was Austria. And so basically, the Austrians did not want these people, and they were being very unwelcoming and arresting a lot of them, and there was a lot of lot of bad behavior towards these refugees. And so the Catholic church, the Catholic Social Services, the Mennonite Relief Fund, the the UN and the Red Cross started building just tent after tent after tent on the edge of town for these people to stay at. And so the businessmen decide, well, we can traffic these people that have nothing over to the East Germans, who will promise them everything, but will give them nothing. But, you know, death camps, basically, just like in World War Two. So you have work camps, you have factories. They they don't feed these people correctly. They don't they don't give them anything that they promise to them in in the camps. And they say, Okay, be on this train at this time, this night. And then they stop somewhere in between Vienna and East Germany, in a very small train station in the middle of the Alps. And they have these large, you know, basic slave options. And unfortunately, the children in the older people get sent back to the camp because they don't need them or want them. So all the children get displaced from their families, as well as the senior citizens or anyone with a disability. And then, you know, the men and the women that can work are broken up as well, and they're sent to these, you know, they're bought by these owners of these factories and farms, and the beautiful women, of course, are sold to either an individual that's there in East German that just wants to have a sex aid, pretty much. Or even worse, they could be sold to an underground East Berlin men's club. And so terrible, terrible things happen to the women in particular, and the more that Caitlin learns. As she's being trained about what's happening, and she interviews a lot of these women, and she sees the results of what's happened, it, it, it really strengthens her and gives her courage. And that's a good thing, because as time goes through the mission, she ends up having to be much, much more than just a high profile social, you know, information gather. She ends up being a combat agent and so, but that that's in the mission as you read, that that happens gradually and so, what? What I think is really a good relationship in this story, is that the one that trains her, because this is actually both CIA and MI six are working on this, on this mission, thought and the director of the whole mission is an very seasoned mi six agent who everyone considers the best spy in the free world. And Ian Fleming himself this, this is true. Fact. Would go to this man and consult with him when he was writing a new book, to make sure you know that he was what he was saying is, Could this really happen? And that becomes that person, Clive Matthews become praying, Caitlyn, particularly when she has to start changing and, you know, defending herself. And possibly, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 26:38 so he becomes her teacher in   Kay Sparling ** 26:42 every way. Yes. So how   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 much? Gee, lots of questions. First of all, how much of the story is actually   Kay Sparling ** 26:50 true? All this story is true. The   Michael Hingson ** 26:53 whole mission is true. Yes, sir. And so how did you learn about this? What? What caused you to start to decide to write this story?   Kay Sparling ** 27:08 So some of these experiences are my own experiences. And so after I as an opera singer, decided to be a volunteer to help out these refugees. I witnessed a lot, and so many years later, I was being treated for PTSD because of what I'd witnessed there. And then a little bit later in Bosnia in the early 90s, and I was taking music therapy and art therapy, and my psychiatrist thought that it'd be a good idea if also I journaled, you know, the things that I saw. And so I started writing things, and then I turned it in, and they had a person that was an intern that was working with him, and both of them encouraged me. They said, wow, if, if there's more to say about this, you should write a book, cuz this is really, really, really good stuff. And so at one point I thought, Well, why not? I will try. So this book is exactly what happened Caitlin, you know, is a real person, and everyone in the book is real. Of course, I changed the names to protect people and their descriptions, but I, you know, I just interviewed a lot of spies that were involved. So, yes, this is a true story.   Michael Hingson ** 29:06 Did you do most of this? Then, after your singing career, were you writing while the career, while you were singing?   Kay Sparling ** 29:13 I was writing while I was still singing. Yeah, I started the book in 2015 Okay, and because, as I was taking the PTSD treatment and had to put it on the shelf several times, life got in the way. I got my my teaching career just really took off. And then I was still singing quite a bit. And then on top of it, everything kind of ceased in 2018 when my mother moved in with me and she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but Louie body Alzheimer's, which is a very, very rough time, and so I became one of her caretakers. So I quit singing, put that on hold, and I. I had to really, really bring down the number in my studio I was teaching and spend time here at home. And so I would take care of her, but then after she would go to bed, and she'd go to bed much earlier than I wanted to, that's when I write, and that's when I got the lion's share of this book written. Was during that time, it was a great escape from what I was dealing with, believe it or not, you know, even though there's some real graphic things in the book and all it wasn't, it was a nice distraction.   Michael Hingson ** 30:36 Wow, so you, you lived this, needless to say,   Kay Sparling ** 30:41 Yes, I did, and yes.   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So you've talked a little bit about what happened to these countries after the collapse of the USSR and communism and so on, these eastern companies, companies, countries. Has it changed much over the years.   Kay Sparling ** 31:03 Oh, yeah, for instance, one, you know, I went to Budapest after they were freed, I guess is what usr would say. Stayed in a five star hotel, and we were lucky if we had running water and electricity at the same time. And every time you went down on the streets, all you'd see is lines, you know, I mean, just because there'd be all like, Red Cross, etc, would be there, and they'd have these big trucks they drove in every day, and it just got to be because they had nothing. If you saw a truck, you'd start running towards it and get in line. You didn't care what it was, you know, and it was. And then fights would break out because they wouldn't have enough for everyone. And then, like, you know, maybe someone's walking away with a bag of rice, and some of us knock them over the head and take, you know, and it was very hard, you know, I was a volunteer there, and it was very, very hard to see this, you know, desperation, one story that I'd like to tell, and I put it in the book. I was riding my bike, you know, on a Friday afternoon to get some groceries at the nearest supermarket where my apartment was, and at that time, they still had the European hours, so they were going to close at five o'clock, and they weren't going to open until seven or eight on Monday morning. So you had to make sure you got there to get your weekend supply. So I was on my way, and I was parking my bike, and this woman, refugee woman, runs up and she has two small children with her, and she's carrying a baby, and she's speaking to me in a language I did not know. I do speak several languages, but I don't know Slavic languages and so, but I'm getting the gist of it that she has nothing to eat, neither do her children, and so I'm patting her on the shoulder, and right when I do that, a policeman that was guarding the door of the supermarket came up to me and, like, grabbed me really hard, and told me in German that I was not To speak to them, and I was not to help them, because if you help them, they'll stay. And I said to him in German, I'm an American. I am not Austrian. I am here on a work visa, and I can do whatever the hell I want to do. Well, he didn't like that. And so I just walked away from him, and I went in the store. And so I got up everything I get. Think of the big need, you know, I never had a baby, so I was trying to kind of figure that out, yeah, and I had to figure it out in German, you know, looking at labels now. And so finally I got, I got some stuff, you know, the stuff I needed, and, and, and the stuff that I got for the family, and I checked out, and I'm pushing the cart, you know, towards them. And he runs up beside me and stops me, and he says, I am going to arrest you if you bring that. I told you not to help them. And I said, again, I don't think I'm breaking any laws. And he said, Oh yes, you are. And I said, Well, I didn't read that in the papers. I didn't see it on TV where anyone said. That you cannot help a refugee. And so we're going back and forth. And so, you know, I'm pretty strong, so I just keep pushing it towards it. Well, she's kind of running down the park, and I'm like, wait, wait, you know, because she's getting scared of this guy, you know, he has a gun, he has a nightstick. Of course, she's scared, and so, you know, I would say, No, no, it's okay, because I can't speak for language, right? And so I'm just trying to give her body language and talk. Well, finally she does stop, and I just throw I give the one sack to the little boy, and one second little girl, they just run and and then, you know, I'm talking to her and saying, you know, it's okay, it's okay. And he grabs me, and he turns me around and he spits in my face.   Michael Hingson ** 35:53 Wow. Talk about breaking the law. But anyway, go ahead.   Kay Sparling ** 36:00 Welcome to Austria in the late 80s. You have to understand their Prime Minister Kurt voltheim won on the Nazi ticket. Mm, hmm. At that very time, if you got on a bus and you saw these businessmen going to work, at least 50% of them were reading the Nazi paper. Okay, so we kind of know what, where his affiliations lie. You know, this policeman and, you know, and I was very aware, you know, of of that party being very strong. And so you have to watch yourself when, when you're a foreigner. And I was a foreigner too, just like her. And so after wiping my face, I mean, I really, really wanted to give him a kick or something, yeah, and I do, I do know martial arts, but I was like, no, no, gotta stay cool. And I just told her to run. And she did and caught up with the children, and, you know, kept running. So that was the first experience I had knowing how unwelcome these people were in Austria. Yeah, so I got involved, yeah, I got involved because I was like, this is absolutely not right.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 And so the book is, in part, to try to bring awareness to all that. I would think   Kay Sparling ** 37:36 absolutely there are, there are bits of it are, they're pretty darn graphic, but it's all true, and it's all documented. Sometimes people about human trafficking, they think, oh, it's not in my backyard. I'm not going to think about that. Well, I live in a very small college town, around 17,000 people, and two months ago, on the front page of this small paper here in town, there were seven men that were arrested for many counts of human trafficking of underage women and prostitution. So guess what, folks, it is in your backyard. If it's in this little town, it's probably in yours too. And we have to be aware before we can do anything. So we have to open our eyes. And I hope this book opens the eyes of the reader to say, Oh, my God, I knew things were bad, but I didn't realize that torture, this kind of thing went on. Well, it does, and I the International Labor Union estimates that 21 million people are being you. You are victims of human trafficking right now, as we speak, throughout the world, that's a lot of people, a lot of people. So most likely, we've all seen some hint of that going on, it didn't register as it at the time. You know, if you're just walked out of a restaurant, and you're walking to your car that's parked on the street, and you happen to go by an alley and there's restaurants on that row, and all of a sudden you see people being kind of shoved out and put in a truck. That's probably human trafficking, you know? And you know, a lot of people don't pay attention, but like, if they stop and think that doesn't look right, and if those people look like they may be from another country, yeah. And all you have to do is call the authorities, you know, and other ways that you can help are by you know, that that you can get involved. Are, you know, donate to all the different organizations that are finding this now.   Michael Hingson ** 40:19 Was the book self published, or do you have a publisher?   Kay Sparling ** 40:25 I self published, but it's more of a hybrid publishing company that's kind of a new thing that's going on, and so I cannot learn all those different facets of publishing a book, right? It just wasn't in my, you know, skill set, and it also wasn't even interesting to me. I don't want to learn how to do graphic illustration. Okay? So what I did is I hired a hybrid company that had all these different departments that dealt with this, and I had complete artistic control, and I was able to negotiate a great deal on my net profits. So I feel that, after looking into the traditional publishing world and not being exactly pleased with it to say the least, I think that was the right business choice for me to make, and I'm very happy I did it.   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 How do you market the book then?   Kay Sparling ** 41:48 Well, that was, that was the tricky part that that publisher did have some marketing they started, but obviously now they agreed it wasn't enough. So at that point, I attended a virtual women's publishing seminar, and I really paid attention to all the companies that were presenting about marketing. And in that time, I felt one that I just was totally drawn to, and so I asked her if we could have a consultation, and we did, and the rest is history. I did hire her team and a publicist, Mickey, who you probably know, and, yeah, it's been going really great. That was the second smart thing I did, was to, you know, hire, hire a publicity.   Michael Hingson ** 42:50 Well, yeah, and marketing is one is a is a tricky thing. It's not the most complicated thing in the world, but you do have to learn it, and you have to be disciplined. So good for you, for for finding someone to help, but you obviously recognize the need to market, which is extremely important, and traditional publishers don't do nearly as much of it as they used to. Of course, there are probably a lot more authors than there used to be too. But still,   Kay Sparling ** 43:19 yeah, their their marketing has changed completely. I remember I had a roommate that became a famous author, and just thinking about when he started, you know, in the 80s, how the industry is completely changed. Mm, hmm, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's really tricky. The whole thing is very tricky. One thing that I also did is one of my graduate students needed a job, and so I've known her since, literally, I've known her since eighth grade. I have been with this student a long time, and she's done very well, but she really is a wiz at the social media. And so she made all my accounts. I think I have 12 altogether, and every time I do something like what I'm doing tonight, soon as it's released, she just puts it out there, everywhere and and I have to thank her from again that that's probably not my skill set.   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 Well, everyone has gifts, right? And the the people who I think are the most successful are the people who recognize that they have gifts. There are other people that have gifts that will augment or enhance what they do. And it's good that you find ways to collaborate. I think collaborating is such an important thing. Oh, yeah. All too many people don't. They think that they can just do it all in and then some people can. I mean, I know that there are some people who can, but a lot of people don't and can't.   Kay Sparling ** 45:12 Well, I've got other things. I've got going, you know, so maybe if I only had to do the book, everything to do with the book, that would be one thing, but I, you know, I have other things I have to have in my life. And so I think that collaboration is also fun, and I'm very good at delegating. I have been very good at delegating for a long time. When I started my school. I also started a theater company, and if you know one thing, it's a three ring circus to produce an opera or a musical, and I've done a lot of them, and yeah, I would have not survived if I didn't learn how to delegate and trust people to do their own thing. So what are you   Michael Hingson ** 45:58 doing today? What are you doing today? Besides writing?   Kay Sparling ** 46:04 Well, during covid, everything got shut down, and I didn't have an income, and I had to do something. And one of, believe it or not, one of my parents, of one of my students, is an attorney for the state of Wisconsin, and she was very worried. I mean, it looked like I might lose my house. I mean, I literally had no income. And so, you know, I was a small business person, and so she offered me very graciously to come work in the department of workers compensation in the legal Bureau at the state of Wisconsin. So I never have done anything like that in my life. I have never sat in a cubicle. I've never sat in front of a computer unless it was in its recording studio or something like that. So it was a crazy thing to have to do in my early 60s, but I'm a single woman, and I had to do it, and and I did, and it put me on solid ground, and that was one reason I couldn't finish the book, because I didn't have to worry about a live cookie. And so I am continuing to do that in so as in the day, that is what I do. I'm a legal assistant, cool.   Michael Hingson ** 47:32 And so when did mission thought get published?   Kay Sparling ** 47:38 Mission thought almost a year ago, in August of 2024 it launched, yes, okay, yeah. And it was very scary for me, you know, because my hybrid publishers up in Canada, and they were telling me, Well, you know, we're going to get you some editorial reviews and we're going to have you be interviewed. And you know, those very first things where my editor at at the publisher had told me it was one of the really a good book, and that was one of the cleanest books she ever had to edit. And so that kind of gave me some confidence. But you understand, look at my background. I I didn't go to school to be a writer. I had never studied writing. I hadn't done any writing up until now, and so to that was my first kind of sigh of relief when the editor at the publisher said it was really a good book, and then I started getting the editorial reviews, and they were all stellar, and they continue to be. And I'm, I'm still a little shocked, you know, because it takes time, I guess, for a person to switch gears and identify themselves as an author. But you know, after a year now, I'm feeling much more comfortable in my shoes about that. But at first it was, it was trying because I was scared and I was worried, you know, what people were going to think about the book, not the story, so much as how it was crafted. But it ends up, well,   Michael Hingson ** 49:15 it ends up being part of the same thing, and yeah, the very fact that they love it that that means a lot. Yeah, so is, is there more in the way of adventures from Caitlin coming up or what's happening?   Kay Sparling ** 49:30 Yeah, this is hopefully a trilogy, um of Caitlin's most important standout missions. And so the second one is set in the early 90s during the Bosnian war. And this time, she cannot use opera as a cover, because obviously in a war zone, there's no opera. And so she has to. To go undercover as either a un volunteer or Red Cross, and this time, her sidekick is not the Clive Matthews. He has actually started a special squad, combat squad that's going in because, of course, we, none of us, were really involved with that war, right? But that's what he's doing. And so, believe it or not, her, her sidekick, so to speak, is a priest that very early, goes on and sees, you know, this absolute ethnic cleansing going on, you know, massacres and and he tries to get the Catholic Church to help, and they're like, no, no, we're not touching that. And so he goes AWOL. And had been friends in Vienna with the CIA during the first book. He goes to the CIA and says, This is what's going on. I saw it with my own eyes. I want to help. And so he becomes Caitlin's sidekick, which is a very interesting relationship. You know, Caitlin, the opera singer, kind of, kind of modern girl, you know, and then you know, the kind of staunch priest. But they find a way to work together, and they have to, because they have to save each other's lives a couple times. And this is my favorite book of the three. And so basically what happens is called Mission impromptu, and I hope to have that finished at the end of this month. And the reason we call it impromptu is because her chief tells her to just get the information and get out, but her and the priest find out that there is a camp of orphaned boys that they are planning to come massacre, and so they they they basically go rogue and don't follow orders and go try to help the boys. Yeah. And then the third book, she has actually moved back to New York, and she's thinking, well, she does retire from the CIA, and it's the summer of 2001 and what happened in September of 2001 911 and so they call her right back in she literally had been retired for about three months.   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 Well, to my knowledge, I never met Caitlin, so I'm just saying Mm hmm, having been in the World Trade Center on September 11, but I don't think I met Caitlin anyway.   Kay Sparling ** 52:43 Go ahead. No, she wasn't in the towers, but no, I was in New York. And yeah, so they called her back right away. And so the third one is going to be called Mission home front, because that's been her home for a very long time. She's been living in New York.   Michael Hingson ** 53:01 Are there plans for Caitlin beyond these three books? I hope so.   Kay Sparling ** 53:08 I think it would be fun for her to retire from the CIA and then move back to the Midwest. And, you know, it turned into a complete fiction. Of course, this is not true stuff, but, you know, like kind of a cozy mystery series, right, where things happen and people can't get anyone to really investigate it, so they come to Caitlin, and then maybe her ex boss, you know, the chief that's also retired, they kind of, you know, gang up and become pi type, you know, right? I'm thinking that might be a fun thing.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Now, are mostly books two and three in the mission series. Are they also relatively non fiction?   53:53 Yes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:57 okay, cool, yes. Well, you know, it's, it's pretty fascinating to to hear all of this and to to see it, to hear about it from you, but to see it coming together, that is, that is really pretty cool to you know, to see you experiencing have the book, has mission thought been converted by any chance to audio? Is it available on Audible or   Kay Sparling ** 54:21 anywhere it has not but it is in my plans. It's there's a little bit of choice I have to make do. I use my publisher and hire one of their readers you know to do it, someone you know, that's in equity, that type of thing. Or you know, my publicity, or people are also saying, well, because you're an actor, and, you know, all these accents, it might be nice for you to do to read your own book. Well, the problem is time, you know, just the time to do it, because I'm so busy promoting the book right now. And really. Right writing the second one that you know, I just don't know if I'm going to be able to pull that off, but I have my own records, recording studio in my voice studio downstairs, but it's just and I have all the equipment I have engineers. It's just a matter of me being able to take the time to practice and to get that done. So it's probably going to be, I'll just use their, one of their people, but yes, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Well, it's,   Michael Hingson ** 55:29 it's tough. I know when we published last year, live like a guide dog, and the publisher, we did it through a traditional publisher, they worked with dreamscape to create an audio version. And I actually auditioned remotely several authors and chose one. But it is hard to really find someone to read the book the way you want it read, because you know what it's like, and so there is merit to you taking the time to read it. But still, as you said, there are a lot of things going on,   Kay Sparling ** 56:09 yeah, and I have read, you know, certain portions of the book, because some podcasts that I've been on asked me to do that, and I and I practiced and that, it went very well. And of course, when people hear that, they're like, Oh, you're the one that has to do this. You know Caitlin. You can speak her, you know her attitudes and all. And then you also know how to throw all those different accents out there, because there's going to be, like, several, there's Dutch, there's German, there's Scottish, high British and Austrian. I mean, yeah, yeah, Austrians speak different than Germans. Mm, hmm,   Michael Hingson ** 56:53 yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's still something worth considering, because you're going to bring a dimension to it that no one else really can because you wrote it and you really know what you want them to sound like, Yeah, but it's a it's a process. I and I appreciate that, but you've got lots going on, and you have to have an income. I know for me, we started live like a guide dog my latest book when the pandemic began, because I realized that although I had talked about getting out of the World Trade Center and doing so without exhibiting fear, didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I realized that I had learned to control fear, because I learned a lot that I was able to put to use on the Day of the emergency. And so the result of that was that, in fact, the mindset kicked in and I was able to function, but I never taught anyone how to do that. And so the intent of live like a guide dog was to be a way that people could learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them, but rather use fear as a very powerful tool to help you focus and do the things that you really need to do. But it's a choice. People have to learn that they can make that choice and they can control it, which is kind of what really brought the book to to mind. And the result was that we then, then did it. And so it came out last August as well.   Kay Sparling ** 58:27 Oh, well, if you read my book, you'll see Caitlin developing the same skills you were just talking about. She has to overcome fear all the time, because she's never been in these situations before, and yet she has to survive, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 Yeah, well, and the reality is that most of us take too many things for granted and don't really learn. But if you learn, for example, if there's an emergency, do you know where to go in the case of an emergency? Do you know how to evacuate, not by reading the signs? Do you know? And that's the difference, the people who know have a mindset that will help them be a lot more likely to be able to survive, because they know what all the options are, and if there's a way to get out, they know what they are, rather than relying on signs, which may or may not even be available to you if you're in a smoke filled environment, for example, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 59:22 yeah, you should know ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I know the state where I work. I I mostly work at home. I'm able to do that, but we do have to go in once a week, and we just changed floors. They've been doing a lot of remodeling, and that was the first thing, you know, the supervisor wanted us to do was walk through all the way for a tornado, fire, etc, and so we did that, you know, and that's smart, because then you're like, you say you're not trying to look at a chart as you're running or whatever,   Michael Hingson ** 59:56 and you may need to do it more than once to make sure you really know it. I know for me. I spent a lot of time walking around the World Trade Center. In fact, I didn't even use my guide dog. I used a cane, because with a cane, I'll find things that the dog would just automatically go around or ignore, like kiosks and other things. But I want to know where all that stuff is, because I want to know what all the shops are down on the first floor. Well, now that that is the case anymore, but it was at the time there was a shopping mall and knowing where everything was, but also knowing where different offices were, knowing who was in which offices, and then knowing the really important things that most people don't know about, like where the Estee Lauder second store was on the 46th floor of tower two. You know, you got to have the important things for wives, and so I learned what that was. Well, it was, it was, those are important things, but you'll learn a lot, and it's real knowledge. Someone, a recent podcast episode that they were on, said something very interesting, and that is that we're always getting information, but information isn't knowing it. Knowledge is really internalizing the information and making it part of our psyche and really getting us to the point where we truly know it and can put it to use. And that is so true. It isn't just getting information. Well, that's great. I know that now, well, no, you don't necessarily know it now, until you internalize it, until you truly make it part of your knowledge. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that?   Kay Sparling ** 1:01:40 Yeah, the best thing is my book website, K, Sparling books.com spelled and it would K, a, y, s, p, as in Paul, A, R, L, I N, G, B, O, O, K, s.com.com, okay, and you can email me through there. And all the media that I've been on is in the media section. The editorial reviews are there. There's another thing that my student heats up for me is the website. It's it's really developed. And so lots of information about the book and about me on on there. And one thing I want to mention is, just because of my background and all the all the people that you know, I know, a friend of mine is a composer, and he wrote a song, a theme song, because we do hope that someday we can sell this, you know, yeah, to for movie and, or, you know, Netflix, or something like that. And so he wrote a theme song and theme music. And I just think that's fun. And then I wanted my students saying, saying it. And then, you know, it's with a rock band, but it's, it's very James Bond, the kind of with a little opera, you know, involved too. But, you know, not a lot of authors can say that on their website, they have a theme song for their books.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:16 And where is   Kay Sparling ** 1:03:18 it? It would be under, it's going to be about the author. And there's a nice one of my other students is a graphic artist. She She did a graphic a scene of Caitlin with her ball gown, and she's got her foot up on a stool, and she's putting her pistol in her thigh holster, in I think, you know, it's kind of like a cartoon, and it quotes Caitlin saying, I bet you I'm going to be the only bell at the ball with this accessory pistol. And then right underneath that, that song, you can click it and hear it. We also are on YouTube mission. Thought does have its own YouTube channel, so you can find it there as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:05 So well, I want to thank you for being here and for telling us all the stories and especially about mission. I hope people will get it and read it, and I look forward to it coming out in audio at some point. Yes, I'll be lazy and wait for that, I I like to to get books with human readers. You know, I can get the print book and I can play it with a synthetic voice, but I, I really prefer human voices. And I know a lot of people who do AI has not progressed to the point where it really can pull that off.   Kay Sparling ** 1:04:38 Well, no, it cannot. Yeah, I totally agree with you there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. This has been fun. And as some of you know, if you listen to many of these podcasts, we have a rule on the podcast, you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So we did have fun. We. You have fun? Yeah. See, there you go. I was gonna ask if you had fun. Of course, yes. So thank you all for listening. Love to hear from you. Love to hear what your thoughts are about today's episode. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, also, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. K, I'll appreciate it. And when this goes up, when you hear it, we really value those ratings and reviews very highly. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest and KU as well, love to hear from you. Please introduce us. Kay, you'll have to introduce us to Caitlin, but But seriously, we always are looking for more guests. So if anyone knows of anyone who ought to come on and tell a story, we'd love to hear from you. But again, Kay, I want to thank you one last time. This has been great, and we really appreciate you being here.   Kay Sparling ** 1:05:59 Well, thank you for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:04 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Sue Looney, Same but Different: Encouraging Students to Think Flexibly ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 2 Sometimes students struggle in math because they fail to make connections. For too many students, every concept feels like its own entity without any connection to the larger network of mathematical ideas.  On the podcast today, we're talking with Dr. Sue Looney about the powerful same and different routine. We explore the ways that teachers can use this routine to help students identify connections and foster flexible reasoning. BIOGRAPHY Sue Looney holds a doctorate in curriculum and instruction with a specialty in mathematics from Boston University. Sue is particularly interested in our most vulnerable and underrepresented populations and supporting the teachers that, day in and day out, serve these students with compassion, enthusiasm, and kindness. RESOURCES Same but Different Math Looney Math TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Students sometimes struggle in math because they fail to make connections. For too many students, every concept feels like its own entity without any connection to the larger network of mathematical ideas.  Today we're talking with Sue Looney about a powerful routine called same but different and the ways teachers can use it to help students identify connections and foster flexible reasoning.  Well, hi, Sue. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to be talking with you today. Sue Looney: Hi Mike. Thank you so much. I am thrilled too. I've been really looking forward to this. Mike: Well, for listeners who don't have prior knowledge, I'm wondering if we could start by having you offer a description of the same but different routine. Sue: Absolutely. So the same but different routine is a classroom routine that takes two images or numbers or words and puts them next to each other and asks students to describe how they are the same but different. It's based in a language learning routine but applied to the math classroom. Mike: I think that's a great segue because what I wanted to ask is: At the broadest level—regardless of the numbers or the content or the image or images that educators select—how would you explain what [the] same but different [routine] is good for? Maybe put another way: How should a teacher think about its purpose or its value? Sue: Great question. I think a good analogy is to imagine you're in your ELA— your English language arts—classroom and you were asked to compare and contrast two characters in a novel. So the foundations of the routine really sit there. And what it's good for is to help our brains think categorically and relationally. So, in mathematics in particular, there's a lot of overlap between concepts and we're trying to develop this relational understanding of concepts so that they sort of build and grow on one another. And when we ask ourselves that question—“How are these two things the same but different?”—it helps us put things into categories and understand that sometimes there's overlap, so there's gray space. So it helps us move from black and white thinking into this understanding of grayscale thinking.  And if I just zoom out a little bit, if I could, Mike—when we zoom out into that grayscale area, we're developing flexibility of thought, which is so important in all aspects of our lives. We need to be nimble on our feet, we need to be ready for what's coming. And it might not be black or white, it might actually be a little bit of both.  So that's the power of the routine and its roots come in exploring executive functioning and language acquisition. And so we just layer that on top of mathematics and it's pure gold. Mike: When we were preparing for this podcast, you shared several really lovely examples of how an educator might use same but different to draw out ideas that involve things like place value, geometry, equivalent fractions, and that's just a few. So I'm wondering if you might share a few examples from different grade levels with our listeners, perhaps at some different grade levels. Sue: Sure. So starting out, we can start with place value. It really sort of pops when we look in that topic area. So when we think about place value, we have a base ten number system, and our numbers are based on this idea that 10 of one makes one group of the next. And so, using same but different, we can help young learners make sense of that system.  So, for example, we could look at an image that shows a 10-stick. So maybe that's made out of Unifix cubes. There's one 10-stick a—stick of 10—with three extras next to it and next to that are 13 separate cubes. And then we ask, “How are they the same but different?” And so helping children develop that idea that while I have 1 ten in that collection, I also have 10 ones. Mike: That is so amazing because I will say as a former kindergarten and first grade teacher, that notion of something being a unit of 1 composed of smaller units is such a big deal. And we can talk about that so much, but the way that I can visualize this in my mind with the stick of 10 and the 3, and then the 13 individuals—what jumps out is that it invites the students to notice that as opposed to me as the teacher feeling like I need to offer some kind of perfect description that suddenly the light bulb goes off for kids. Does that make sense? Sue: It does. And I love that description of it. So what we do is we invite the students to add their own understanding and their own language around a pretty complex idea. And they're invited in because it seems so simple: “How are these the same but different?” “What do you notice?” And so it's a pretty complex idea, and we gloss over it. Sometimes we think our students understand that and they really don't. Mike: Is there another example that you want to share? Sue: Yeah, I love the fraction example. So equivalence—when I learned about this routine, the first thing that came to mind for me when I layered it from thinking about language into mathematics was, “Oh my gosh, it's equivalent fractions.”  So if I were to ask listeners to think about—put a picture in your head of one-half, and imagine in your mind's eye what that looks like. And then if I said to you, “OK, well now I want you to imagine two-fourths. What does that look like?” And chances are those pictures are not the same.  Mike, when you imagine, did you picture the same thing or did you picture different things? Mike: They were actually fairly different. Sue: Yeah. So when we think about one-half as two fourths, and we tell kids those are the same—yes and no, right? They have the same value that, if we were looking at a collection of M&M'S or Skittles or something, maybe half of them are green, and if we make four groups, [then] two-fourths are green. But contextually it could really vary. And so helping children make sense of equivalence is a perfect example of how we can ask the question, same but different. So we just show two pictures. One picture is one-half and one picture is two-fourths, and we use the same colors, the same shapes, sort of the same topic, but we group them a little differently and we have that conversation with kids to help make sense of equivalence. Mike: So I want to shift because we've spent a fair amount of time right now describing two instances where you could take a concept like equivalent fractions or place value and you could design a set of images within the same but different routine and do some work around that.  But you also talked with me, as we were preparing, about different scenarios where same but different could be a helpful tool. So what I remember is you mentioned three discrete instances: this notion of concepts that connect; things learned in pairs; and common misconceptions—or, as I've heard you describe them, naive conceptions. Can you talk about each of those briefly? Sue: Sure. As I talk about this routine to people, I really want educators to be able to find the opportunities—on their own, authentically—as opportunities arise. So we should think about each of these as an opportunity.  So I'll start with concepts that connect. When you're teaching something new, it's good practice to connect it to, “What do I already know?” So maybe I'm in a third grade classroom, and I want to start thinking about multiplication. And so I might want to connect repeated addition to multiplication. So we could look at 2 plus 2 plus 2 next to 2 times 3. And it can be an expression, these don't always have to be images. And a fun thing to look at might be to find out, “Where do I see 3 and 2 plus 2 plus 2?” So what's happening here with factors? What is happening with the operations? And then of course they both yield the same answer of 6. So concepts that connect are particularly powerful for helping children build from where they know, which is the most powerful place for us to be. Mike: Love that. Sue: Great. The next one is things that are learned in pairs. So there's all sorts of things that come in pairs and can be confusing. And we teach kids all sorts of weird tricks and poems to tell themselves and whatever to keep stuff straight. And another approach could be to—let's get right in there, to where it's confusing.  So for example, if we think about area and perimeter, those are two ideas that are frequently confusing for children. And we often focus on, “Well, this is how they're different.” But what if we put up an image, let's say it's a rectangle, but [it] wouldn't have to be. And we've got some dimensions on there. We're going to think about the area of one and then the perimeter on the other. What is the same though, right? Because where the confusion is happening. So just telling students, “Well, perimeter's around the outside, so think of ‘P' for ‘pen' or something like that, and area's on the inside.” What if we looked at, “Well, what's the same about these two things?” We're using those same dimensions, we've got the same shape, we're measuring in both of those. And let students tell you what is the same and then focus on that critical thing that's different, which ultimately leads to understanding formula for finding both of those things. But we've got to start at that concept level and link it to scenarios that make sense for kids. Mike: Before we move on to talking about misconceptions, or naive conceptions, I want to mark that point: this idea that confusion for children might actually arise from the fact that there are some things that are the same as opposed to a misunderstanding of what's different.  I really think that's an important question that an educator could consider when they're thinking about making this bridging step between one concept or another or the fact that kids have learned how whole numbers behave and also how fractions might behave. That there actually might be some things that are similar about that that caused the confusion, particularly on the front end of exploration, as opposed to, “They just don't understand the difference.” Sue: And what happens there is then we aid in memory because we've developed these aha moments and painted a more detailed picture of our understanding in our mind's eye. And so it's going to really help children to remember those things as opposed to these mnemonic tricks that we give kids that may work, but it doesn't mean they understand it. Mike: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about naive conceptions and the ways that same and [different] can work with those. Sue: So, I want to kick it up to maybe middle school, and I was thinking about what example might be good here, and I want to talk about exponents. So if we have 2 raised to the third power, the most common naive conception would be, like, “Oh, I just multiply that. It's just 2 times 3.”  So let's talk about that. So if I am working on exponents, I notice a lot of my students are doing that, let's put it right up on the board: “Two rays to the third power [and] 2 times 3. How are these the same but different?” And the conversation's a bit like that last example, “Well, let's pay attention to what's the same here.” But noticing something that a lot of children have not quite developed clearly and then putting it up there against where we want them to go and then helping them—I like that you use the word “bridge”—helping them bridge their way over there through this conversation is especially powerful. Mike: I think the other thing that jumps out for me as you were describing that example with exponents is that, in some ways, what's happening there when you have an example like “2 times 3” next to “2 to the third power” is you're actually inviting kids to tell you, “This is what I know about multiplication.” So you're not just disregarding it or saying, “We're through with that.” It's in the exploration that those ideas come out, and you can say to kids, “You are right. That is how multiplication functions. And I can see why that would lead you to think this way.” And it's a flow that's different. It doesn't disregard kids' thinking. It actually acknowledges it. And that feels subtle, but really important. Sue: I really love shining a light on that. So it allows us to operate from a strength perspective. So here's what I know, and let's build from there. So it absolutely draws out in the discussion what it is that children know about the concepts that we put in front of them. Mike: So I want to shift now and talk about enacting same but different. I know that you've developed a protocol for facilitating the same but different routine, and I'm wondering if you could talk us through the protocol, Sue. How should a teacher think about their role during same but different? And are there particular teacher moves that you think are particularly important? Sue: Sure. So the protocol I've worked out goes through five steps, and it's really nice to just kind of think about them succinctly. And all of them have embedded within them particular teacher moves. They are all based on research of how children learn mathematics and engage in meaningful conversation with one another.  So step 1 is to look. So if I'm using this routine with 3- and 4-year-olds, and I'm putting a picture in front of them, learning that to be a good observer, we've got to have eyes on what it is we're looking at. So I have examples of counting, asking a 4-year-old, “How many things do I have in front of me?” And they're counting away without even looking at the stuff. So teaching the skill of observation. Step 1 is look. Step 2 is silent think time. And this is so critically important. So giving everybody the time to get their thoughts together. If we allow hands to go in the air right away, it makes others that haven't had that processing time to figure it out shut down quite often. And we all think at different speeds with different tasks all the time, all day long. So, we just honor that everyone's going to have generally about 60 seconds in which to silently think, and we give students a sentence frame at that time to help them. Because, again, this is a language-based learning routine. So we would maybe put on the board or practice saying out loud, “I'd like you to think about: ‘They are the same because blank; they are different because blank.'” And that silent think time is just so important for allowing access and equitable opportunities in the classrooms. Mike: The way that you described the importance of giving kids that space, it seems like it's a little bit of a two-for-one because we're also kind of pushing back on this notion that to be good at math, you have to have your hand in the air first, and if you don't have your hand in the air first or close to first, your idea may be less valuable. So I just wanted to shine a light on the different ways that that seems important for children, both in the task that they're engaging with and also in the culture that you're trying to build around mathematics. Sue: I think it's really important. And if we even zoom out further just in life, we should think before we speak. We should take a moment. We should get our thoughts together. We should formulate what it is that we want to say. And learning how to be thoughtful and giving the luxury of what we're just going to all think for 60 seconds. And guess what? If you had an idea quickly, maybe you have another one. How else are they the same but different? So we just keep that culture that we're fostering, like you mentioned, we just sort of grow that within this routine. Mike: I think it's very safe to say that the world might be a better place if we all took 60 seconds to think about [laughs] what we wanted to say sometimes. Sue: Yes, yes. So as teachers, we can start teaching that and we can teach kids to advocate for that. “I just need a moment to get my thoughts together.”  All right, so the third step is the turn and talk. And it's so important and it's such an easy move. It might be my favorite part. So during that time, we get to have both an experience with expressive language and receptive language—every single person. So as opposed to hands in the air and I'm playing ball with you, Mike, and you raise your hand and you get to speak and we're having a good time. When I do a turn and talk, everybody has an opportunity to speak. And so taking the thoughts that are in their head and expressing them is a big deal. And if we think about our multilingual learners, our young learners, even our older learners, and it's just a brand new concept that I've never talked about before. And then on the other side, the receptive learning. So you are hearing from someone else and you're getting that opportunity of perspective taking. Maybe they notice something you hadn't noticed, which is likely to happen to somebody within that discussion. “Wow, I never thought about it that way.” So the turn and talk is really critical. And the teacher's role during this is so much fun because we are walking around and we're listening. And I started walking around with a notebook. So I tell students, “While you are talking, I'm going to collect your thinking.” And so I'm already imagining where this is going next. And so I'm on the ground if we're sitting on the rug, I'm leaning over, I'm collecting thoughts, I'm noticing patterns, I'm noticing where I want to go next as the facilitator of the conversation that's going to happen whole group. So that's the third component, turn and talk. The fourth component is the share. So if I've walked around and gathered student thinking, I could say, “Who would like to share their thinking?” and just throw it out there. But I could instead say—let's say we're doing the same but different with squares and rectangles. And I could say, “Hmm, I noticed a lot of you talking about the length of the sides. Is there anyone that was talking about the lengths of the sides that would like to share what either you or your partner said?” So I know that I want to steer it in that direction. I know a lot of people talked about that, so let's get that in the air. But the share is really important because these little conversations have been happening. Now we want to make it public for everybody, and we're calling on maybe three or four students. We're not trying to get around to everybody. We're probably hopefully not going to [be] drawing Popsicle sticks and going random. At this point, students have had the opportunity to talk, to listen, to prepare. They've had a sentence stem. So let's see who would like to share and get those important ideas out. Mike: I think what strikes me is there's some subtlety to what's happening there because you are naming some themes that you heard. And as you do that, and you name that, kids can say, “That's me,” or, “I thought about that,” or, “My partner thought about that. You're also clearly acting with intention. As an educator, there are probably some ideas that you either heard that you want to amplify or that you want kids to attend to, and yet you're not doing it in a way that takes away from the conversations that they had. You're still connecting to what they said along the way. And you're not suddenly saying, “Great, you had your turn and talk, but now let's listen to David over here because we want to hear what he has to share.” Sue: Yes. And I don't have to be afraid of calling out a naive conception. Maybe a lot of people were saying, “Well, I think the rectangles have two long [sides and] two short.” And they're not seeing that the square is also a rectangle. And so maybe I'm going to use that language in the conversation too, so that yeah, the intentionality is exactly it. Building off of that turn and talk to the share. The last step is the summary. So after we've shared, we have to put a bow on that, right? So we've had this experience. They generally are under 15 minutes, could be 5 minutes, could be 10 minutes. But we've done something important all together. And so the teacher's role here is to summarize, to bring that all together and to sort of say, “OK, so we looked at this picture here, and we noticed”—I'll stick with the square/rectangle example—“that both shapes have four sides and four square corners. They're both rectangles, but this one over here is a special one. It's a square and all four sides are equal and that's what makes it special.” Or something like that. But we want to succinctly nail that down in a summary.  If you do a same but different and nobody gets there, and so you chose this with intention, you said, “This is what we need to talk about today,” and all of a sudden you're like, “Oh, boy,” then your summary might not sound like that. It might sound like, “Some of you noticed this and some of you noticed that, and we're going to come back to this after we do an activity where we're going to be sorting some shapes.” So it's an opportunity for formative assessment. So summary isn't, “Say what I really wanted to say all along,” even though I do have something I want to say; it's a connection to what happened in that conversation. And so almost always it comes around to that. But there are those instances where you learn that we need to do some more work here before I can just nicely put that bow on it. Mike: You're making me think about what one of my longtime mentors used to say, and the analogy he would use is, “You can definitely lead the horse to water, but it is not your job to shove the horse's face in the water.” And I think what you're really getting at is, I can have a set of mathematical goals that I'm thinking about as I'm going into a same and different. I can act with intention, but there is still kind of this element of, “I don't quite know what's going to emerge.” And if that happens, don't shove the metaphorical horse's head in the water, meaning don't force that there. If the kids haven't made the connection yet or they haven't explored the gray space that's important. Acknowledge that that's still in process. Sue: Exactly. There is one last optional step which relates to summary. So if you have time and you're up for an exploration, you can now ask your students to make one of their own. And that's a whole other level of sophistication of thought for students to recognize, “Oh, this is how those two were same but different. I'm going to make another set that are the same but different in the same way.” It's actually a very complex task. We could scaffold it by giving students, “If this was my first image, what would the other one be?” That would be like what we just did. Very worthwhile. Obviously now we're not within the 10-minute timeframe. It's a lot bigger. Mike: What I found myself thinking about, the more that we talk through intent, purpose, examples, the protocol steps, is the importance of language. And it seemed like part of what's happening is that the descriptive language that's accessed over the course of the routine that comes from students, it really paves the way for deeper conceptual understanding. Is that an accurate understanding of the way that same and different can function? Sue: A hundred percent. So it's really the way that we think as we're looking at something. We might be thinking in mental pictures of things, but we might also be thinking in the words. And if we're going to function in a classroom and in society, we have to have the language for what it is that we're doing. And so yes, we're playing in that space of language acquisition, expressive language, receptive language, all of it, to help us develop this map of what that is really deeply all about so that when I see that concept in another context, I have this rich database in my head that involves language that I can draw on to now do the next thing with it. Mike: That's really powerful. Listeners have heard me say this before, but we've just had a really insightful conversation about the structure, the design, the implementation, and the impact of same and different. And yet we're coming to the end of the podcast. So I want to offer an opportunity for you to share any resources, any websites, any tools that you think a listener who wanted to continue learning about same but different, where might they go? What might you recommend, Sue? Sue: Sure. So there's two main places to find things, and they actually do exist in both. But the easiest way to think about this, there is the website, which is samebutdifferentmath.com, and it's important to get the word “math” in there. And that is full of images from early learning, really even up through high school. So that's the first place, and they are there with a creative common licensing.  And then you mentioned tools. So there are some tools, and if we wanted to do deeper learning, and I think the easiest way to access those is my other website, which is just looneymath.com. And if you go up at the top under Books, there's a children's book that you can have kids reading and enjoying it with a friend. There's a teacher book that talks about in more detail some of the things we talked about today. And then there are some cards where students can sit in a learning center and turn over a card that presents them with an opportunity to sit shoulder to shoulder. And so those are all easily accessed really on either one of those websites, but probably easiest to find under the looneymath.com. Mike: Well, for listeners, we'll put a link to those resources in the show notes to this episode.  Sue, I think this is probably a good place to stop, but I just want to say thank you again. It really has been a pleasure talking with you today. Sue: You're welcome, Mike. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, so I really appreciate the opportunity. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

“I ask them to sing with maximum efficiency, accessing their singer's formant, and from there, we'll ask for specific sounds. Sometimes conductors get stuck asking them to blend, to listen. When we do that, it's like giving them an 8-pack of Crayola and asking them to color. Instead, we start the rehearsal with a 64-pack and then throughout the rehearsal we might pick out the light blue #2 to color that section of the music. They're able to access the full breadth of their vocal powers in the rehearsal.”Francis Cathlina, D.M.A. (he/him) is a Vietnamese-American conductor and educator, renowned for his innovative approach to choral music. His concerts invite audiences into a world where choral artistry becomes a powerful storytelling medium.Dr. Cathlina is currently the Director of Choral Activities at the University of Memphis, where he received the 2025 Dean's Award for Creative Achievement. He oversees the Choral Area, leads the MM/DMA Choral Conducting program, and conducts the University Singers.A two-time GRAMMY-nominated educator, Dr. Cathlina draws deeply from his Eastern heritage. His work reflects a commitment to excellence and collaboration. In 2025, he will serve on the conducting faculty for Brazil's FIMUS Festival and work in the Philippines as part of ACDA's International Conductors Exchange Program. Early recognition came from the Texas Choral Directors Association (TCDA), which named him a “Young Director of Distinction.”Cathlina's teaching philosophy centers on developing masterful technicians, expressive communicators, and thoughtful citizens. Under his direction, the UofM University Singers have been invited to perform for national conferences. Recent engagements involve All-State choirs in Mississippi and Kentucky, the International Mu Phi Convention Chorus, and a Carnegie Hall debut. Dr. Cathlina's research focuses on choral tone and conducting gesture. He has presented over 69 sessions worldwide. He is published in international journals. In 2025, he served as the Headliner for the Ohio and Alabama choral conferences. In 2023, he co-led Conducting Masterclasses in Greece with the University of Macedonia and Ionian University.Dr. Cathlina earned a DMA in conducting with a vocal pedagogy cognate from the University of North Texas, an MM from Michigan State University, and a BME from Baylor University. Before his doctorate, he taught in Texas public schools. Beyond the podium, Dr. Cathlina is an avid pickleball player. He, his husband Kyle, and their dog Coco call Memphis, Tennessee, their home. To get in touch with Francis, you can find him on Instagram (@francis.cathlina) or Facebook (@franciscathlina), on his website (franciscathlina.com), or via email: franciscathlina@gmail.com.Email choirfampodcast@gmail.com to contact our hosts.Podcast music from Podcast.coPhoto in episode artwork by Trace Hudson

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with author, activist Michelle MiJung Kim about her new Podcast, I Feel That Way Too. Then we listen to the first episode. Michelle MiJung Kim Website I Feel That Way Too podcast     I FEEL THAT WAY TOO show Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to APEX Express. I'm your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I'll be talking with author, speaker, and activist, Michelle MiJung Kim, about the new podcast. So we get to listen after the interview to the very first episode, and you get a little behind the scenes with activist Michelle MiJung. Kim, stay tuned. welcome, Michelle MiJung Kim to Apex Express. I'm so excited to chat with you. You are an award-winning author, activist, and now a podcast host. Hello girl. Welcome. Yay. Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Thank you so much for having me, Miko. I'm so excited. Miko Lee: I wanna start with my big question, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Michelle MiJung Kim: Hmm. What a deep question that I can go on forever about. My people are, first and foremost people who are in my life, who have supported me throughout. Everything that I've gone through in my life, including my friends and family who have different lineages, people, most of the people that I hold near and dear carry with them, a deep understanding of their historical trauma, their familial trauma, and people who are courageous enough to share them [00:02:00] with me. So that really creates this bond that I have with my people. A lot of my people are in the queer and trans community and in the physical space of the Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California. A lot of my community rooted in my Asian American identity. Miko Lee: Love this. My follow up, what is the legacy you carry with you from your people? Michelle MiJung Kim: The legacy that I carry from my people that jumps out to me right now is the legacy of my grandparents. My grandparents were both born in Korea. My grandpa from the north, my grandma from the south, and I am always thinking about how my grandpa was fighting for the Korea's liberation from Japanese occupation, and he was a writer himself. I always saw him writing and he had [00:03:00] stacks of paper ready to be published, but he ended up not being able to publish before he passed. So my book dedication starts with my gratitude to my grandparents and my grandpa specifically. The legacy of his work, his spirit, his love for philosophy, social justice language I carry with me. My grandmother, who was part of the first class of women in her generation to go to a university she was a badass matriarch of our family and her energy, her audacity, her courage, her confidence in her herself and her community is what I try to channel. I think about them every day. Miko Lee: Ugh. I love that. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: My book is called The Wake Up Closing The Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change and really it's part memoir, part [00:04:00] principles of Social justice that I hold near to my heart. I really wanted to write a book that could be timeless and that could put into accessible ways how we can embody these values that are important for our collective liberation. So much of the social justice work that I encountered throughout my education journey had been highly intellectualized and theoretical and sometimes not unpacked in ways that feel human. I wanna see how people are struggling to hold social justice values while living their daily lives. How sometimes it gets challenging to embody the values that we say are important to us because it asks us to trade off our comfort and safety sometimes. I wanted to be really honest about my experience trying to live in alignment with my values, including the parts of my own contradictions and struggles and paradoxes that I've had to navigate. Miko Lee: Such a powerful [00:05:00] book for the time of now in that it does have the personal story, but then also recognizing what's happening in our world. It's really action forward. Tell me how you got from this book to creating a podcast series called. I feel that way too. Tell me what inspired this whole series? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think it is an extension of the work that I've been doing, which really marries personal storytelling and social justice values. I Feel that way too, exploring these tricky life questions like, can we be friends if we politically disagree? What if I'm not above revenge, even though I am a self-proclaimed abolitionist? Why do I have this urge to, be vengeful and why do I feel gleeful when people that have done harm get punished, right? Am I supposed to sleep with one person for the rest of my life? Am I a bad daughter? These are all the questions that I've struggled [00:06:00] with. I wanted to have an opportunity to unpack them with raw honesty and with guests that could really help guide me in thinking about these things while trying to stay tethered to my values around social justice. I've always been a fan of audio storytelling. So this was the perfect opportunity to explore that, especially in an era where the world is constantly insisting we solve these issues in isolation and we deal with our traumas in shame and without each other's witnessing. This is my way of hopefully making people feel a little bit less alone in their struggles and also in a way that, helps us to build more courage and community through stories. Miko Lee: I binge the entire season. Super fun, super personal., I was wondering how did you decide on these topics? Did they come naturally [00:07:00] or did you create an arc? Tell me about your process. Michelle MiJung Kim: I had probably two, three pages long list of topics that I wanted to explore and we had to pick and narrow it down. I wanted to tackle questions that felt existential in the collective psyche. I look at and feel into the zeitgeist of what is happening in the world . These are the questions that I wanted to explore because of my own life, but also some of these questions bring up a lot of shame and tension. when I looked at other podcasts that were exploring similar topics, I just felt as though a lot of these issues were being talked about in a very intellectualized way, in a very theoretical way without the raw sort of personal storytelling aspect that I was craving. So this was my attempt at being, courageous and practicing what I preach and being able to share some of the more vulnerable [00:08:00] tensions that aren't typically explored in the public arena. Miko Lee: Oh wow. So two whole more pages for future seasons of shows to do. I was, struck by how vulnerable the episodes are, how they're so personal. The first one being around, supporting your single mom and around financial and really emotional stability that really struck me as being so very personal and deep. I just wonder, has your mom and dad listened to the series or particularly that episode and what has been any response? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, my dad, no, but my mom, yes. I wanted my mom to listen to it before it aired. 'cause I thought that was the only fair thing to do. I gave her the option also to not have this air if she didn't want it to go live. And I was. So [00:09:00] scared about how she was gonna receive it. And for the listeners, the story really goes deep into my struggle around prioritizing her needs over my desires, and constantly living in this. Feeling of guilt for not doing more to support my mom. And also our definition of love and sacrifice being entangled in ways that feel sometimes impossible to navigate. I had attempted to have this conversation years ago with my mom that like completely backfire that I talk about on the podcast and, since then, I just never broached the subject because I was so nervous about how she was gonna take it. , And my biggest fear was her feeling less loved and feeling, hurt by my honesty. And so when it came time for me to present this podcast to her, I was incredibly nervous. What ended up happening was we ended up listening to the episode together. She was sitting [00:10:00] right there on the couch behind me and the, I played the episode and I just couldn't look at her face. So instead of looking directly at her, I had my camera on , so I could look at her through my phone. And I had my back toward her, and within the first five minutes she started crying. So I would pause the episode, talk to her about what was coming up for her. We would cry, we would fight, we would argue, we would apologize and we would cry again. So the entire episode that's 30 minutes long, took us three hours to get through. Miko Lee: Wow. Michelle MiJung Kim: It was incredibly difficult emotionally. And it was probably one of the most pivotal interactions I've ever had with my mom. I've been able to be more honest than ever with her. [00:11:00] She got to also be honest in her reaction and response, and we were able to be really brave with our vulnerability, which we had never done because most of our lives, our love and , especially our pain was communicated through silence. Just pretending that we're not hurting because we don't wanna hurt the other person. Very Asian. It was hard, very Asian, but it was also really healing. Miko Lee: Wow. I would love, love, love a follow up episode with you interviewing your mom. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I don't if request that. Miko Lee: I dunno if she'd be downed for that, but that would, I'm curious if you could share a little bit more about your needing to have your back toward her in the beginning and if that shifted over those three hours. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I think it was my fear of my truth being seen by her , and the inability for me to face her [00:12:00] when I knew my truth was hurting her. Hmm. And I also didn't want to pressure her to react in a certain way when I'm looking at her. So I, I, I don't know if she knew that I was looking at her through my phone. But I think I really wanted her to have an honest reaction and, that scared me. So I, and so at some point in. Yeah, I did turn around after I saw her crying. I paused the episode and I looked at her and I said, well, what's coming up for you? And she, her first thing, the first thing that she said was, I just don't remember it that way. Which started a whole nother conversation right around how she remembers my childhood, from her vantage point. And I think it's only natural for a parent, for anyone to want to know that their child, was not [00:13:00] hurt by their choices and that they did the best that they could and that was enough. And I think it's really hard to make space for the possibility that their best. Also cause harm. Hmm. Without making them, one dimensionally a bad person or a bad mother. I think holding multiple truths like that can be so difficult , for anyone, but especially when it comes to the impact that our action has on our loved ones. Mm-hmm. So I think it was truly, shattering the image of what she thought was our childhood. And rewriting an entire history in her mind, in order to make space for my reality. And I think that took a lot of courage on her part, and also a lot of grace, that she had to extend to herself and me. Miko Lee: And by the end of that three hours, did you have a sense of resolve or a different [00:14:00] path moving forward? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think we didn't come to a hundred percent agreement on what happened, which I didn't expect. But there was certainly things that were said that we had never verbalized before around what was hard, what was painful, and what we kept from one another. And I think we needed time away from each other to really process that. So I think we did the best that we could. Actually that night we went to a concert together 'cause we already had tickets and we could not go. And we went, Miko Lee: what was the concert? Michelle MiJung Kim: We went to a K-pop concert, Bada, which is Miko Lee: Oh yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: All like dancing. Miko Lee: Love her. Michelle MiJung Kim: So we just let out all of our angst , dancing and that was a good end to our night. Miko Lee: That's a great way to actually resolve dance it out. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, exactly. We just dance it out. And then, at first it was a little awkward, but, we got over it. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Afterwards, she listened to the podcast on her own with a transcript because her first language is not English. She really wanted to make sure that she understood what she listened to. So she had the transcript in front of her and she was looking up words that she didn't understand. She said that really helped her to understand more of what, I was trying to say. I didn't expect this, but weeks later she just randomly said, I am really sorry. I did the best that I could and I didn't know how much you were carrying. That changed everything for me. I didn't expect that kind of acknowledgement and validation from her when I was putting out this episode when I was writing it. I truly just wanted to do justice to my own truth and make space for my stories in ways that I'd never done before. But to then receive her acknowledgement, of some of the things that [00:16:00] I talked about was. Truly invaluable and healing in ways that I didn't expect. That completely changed our relationship. I'm able to be a lot more honest with her and I feel less, guarded about, the most tender parts of me when I'm around her. Miko Lee: Wow, that's so powerful that one episode. How impactful. Thank you so much for sharing about that. the topics that rose to the top in your conversations? Every single one of them had such universality, the Oxford study then the talking about Gaza and the impact on your job, being friends with somebody that you disagree with politically, each of these topics, there's so much resonance. I'm wondering of the three pages you had to choose from, how did these float to the top? Michelle MiJung Kim: It was a tough one. I had a team that I talked to about which topics to prioritize and we all got votes [00:17:00] on which ones we wanted to talk about. Some I had to really push to get it in to the season. The one about, my open relationship journey, they were like, why the hell do , we wanna talk about this? For me it was like, it's not about how to do open relationship 101 or how to do poly 1 0 1. It's actually about desire. Right. How we get in touch with our desire and practice wanting and being able to practice wanting that is at the core of that episode. I really wanna talk about it because no one else was talking about it. Miko Lee: I appreciated that episode because it was about autonomy. Like how do you hold on to who you are as an individual? To me, I didn't look at it as much about poly as much as it about who am I and how do I hold on to my belief in who I am even in the midst of being in a relationship. Michelle MiJung Kim: Absolutely. Exactly. I think I wanted to prioritize topics that weren't popular in terms of the public discourse, not 'cause [00:18:00] it's not something that people are grappling with, but because it's tricky to navigate. Because it requires a lot of nuance and often I think when we talk about desire or when we talk about personal wellness and self-development, it's so often done through the lens of, white co-opted, self-help culture. I wanted to do it in a way that felt more in alignment with my values around social justice. I picked the topics that were less explored through that lens, but also that, I felt were present in our public zeitgeist and in the cultural musings. Some of these topics were also timely. Like the one about my job loss due to Palestine or my struggle with my friendships that were breaking all over the place because of our political disagreement or the conversation around [00:19:00] abolition and conflict, navigating conflict in our own lives that map to our vision of the collective liberation Miko Lee: and the contradictions that we hold. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly, and the contradictions that we hold and that we have to make room for that often get, muted or disregarded because it's uncomfortable to talk about or that makes us feel less radical, less critical, less social justice-y And I think these are actually quite urgent topics that we need to talk about in order for us to create more, coalitions, more resilient relationships that is at the foundation of all of our organizing. Whether that is, you know. Or in our political work or personal, , living in alignment with our values. So I felt these were also timely conversations that needed to be had in a way that felt accessible, personal, and honest, that wasn't overly packaged up. So that people can [00:20:00] resonate with the raw struggles. Miko Lee: I also appreciate how you put listeners voices in at the end and just with their perspectives, because as you're talking about, for instance, the breaking up with friends because of political differences, then we're hearing other people's voices about their experiences. So how did you do those call out for those voices and did you identify specific topics you wanted colleagues to speak on? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, so we did a call out for voicemails for every episode, and it was so important for me. I kept pushing our team to do it, even though we were running out of time and resources. They were like, no, we gotta cut this part out. And I was like, no, because the podcast is called, “I Feel that way too” and it's about, not just me, but how my story then gets reflected by the entire community. I wanted to make sure that the community voices become a part of this episode. I did a call out on my social media, on my newsletter, and it was actually quite hard to get people [00:21:00] to submit voicemails. I think people feel a lot of pressure to get it perfect. I asked my friends and they said they wanted to do it, but they were feeling pressured because they feel, they felt like they didn't know what to say and they wanted to say it in a way that felt professional. And so Miko Lee: come up with something profound. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly. They wanted to be profound and everything that we do, I think takes a level of courage. I really appreciated people who submitted their voicemails. Miko Lee: Yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: We had voicemails coming from New Zealand, from Taiwan, from the United States from Canada, and so it was wonderful to know that there was a global sort of connection to these issues and the things that we are grappling with, and also knowing that we're none of us is really alone. Miko Lee: Speaking to the alone, we're living in such a time of isolation right now and where there's two different parties with really clear agendas and people are this way or [00:22:00] people are that way, and yet your title is, “I feel that way too”. Can you share a little bit about where that title comes from? Michelle MiJung Kim: I was part of my very first high risk direct action calling for an end to the genocide in Palestine, I was terrified and I decided to partake in it because I didn't know what else to do to process my anger and my desperation, watching what was happening unfold on my screen. I just felt like I had to do something more than what I was used to doing, whether it's donating or signing petitions or writing. There was a collective gaslighting during that time where the media outlets were justifying what was happening in Gaza. People were being, retaliated against for talking about Palestine. There was this overall, polarization between people who felt this [00:23:00] urgent need to do something about Palestine versus people who are living their daily lives as if nothing was happening. I went to participate in this direct action, I was surrounded by people who felt similarly, and after this really intense action took place when everybody was highly activated and charged because we had just seen our comrades be arrested and then released, and we were, just in our adrenaline. We all held hands to chant together collectively. And the chant went like this. ” Don't worry, I got you. I feel that way too. We'll get through together, we'll make our way through.” And when the chant leader said, I feel that way too, something in me broke and I just started weeping. In that moment, I just needed to feel like I wasn't alone in feeling this kind of [00:24:00] desperation, this type of pain and trauma, and anger towards our systems, and that just holding hands with complete strangers. Chanting, I feel that way too. Made me feel so much more grounded and hopeful and courageous to a point where I felt I was able to take more risks than I was comfortable with. So that's where, that's the origin of the phrase. I feel that way too, for our podcast. I just think back to that moment where I felt so seen, I felt so held and encouraged just by the sentence. I feel that way too. That's the kind of feeling that I hope to be able to gift to our listeners, whoever's listening to our podcast and whatever topic may be. I hope more people feel encouraged by the stories that we share and the way that we are creating space for us to be vulnerable and courageous together. Miko Lee: I [00:25:00] love that. So you're asking your audience to listen, feel connected to something else, be able to be part of a bigger movement. Are there other things that you want your audience to ponder or to take action on? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think the podcast really is about, community and courage. The podcast asks us to be courageous about identifying what we want, about how we want to live our lives, who we want to be, and being courageous enough to face the contradictions and make space for the collective, and connection. I would love more than anything for people to feel seen. But also feel encouraged to share their stories with people in their lives and to hopefully be able to take action together. I think the action of caring for one another in this vulnerable, honest way, the way that my mom and I got through that very difficult conversation. That [00:26:00] in and of itself is healing. Multiple generations of trauma. If we all could muster up the courage to practice that level of honesty and courage with one another, so much of our, need to heal can be met and so much more possibility emerges from that action. After airing some of the episodes, we also hosted a discussion session. Called the Courage Collective, where we got to discuss and unpack what came up for people after they listened to the episode, and that was incredible. Just being able to have a consistent space where people can meet provided that sense of community that we all need right now to be able to move in solidarity with our broader movement , and to sustain this very difficult, exhausting path that we're all walking in our personal lives, but also in our collective lives. I hope people can listen to the podcast and share with somebody that they wanna talk about the topics and keep the [00:27:00] conversation going in a way that can encourage you to take action that brings you closer to more community, more possibilities for our collective liberation. Miko Lee: Michelle MiJung Kim, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We're gonna put a link to the entire series in our show notes. where else can they find out more information about you and your work and your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: Everything you need to know about me on my website, www.michellemijungkim.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and follow me on social media, on Instagram at Michelle Kimkim or on LinkedIn. Miko Lee: Love it. Thank you so much for joining me. So now take a listen to the first episode of, “I Feel that way too.” Michelle MiJung Kim: The other day I was talking to my mom about my uncle, her older brother who has stage four lung cancer. My mom was [00:28:00] venting about how upset she was that her brother's kids weren't jumping at the opportunity to pay his hospital bills. She said he sacrificed his whole life for them. How could they do this to him? I mean, they have their own lives too, mom. One of them has a little kid. It's not exactly cheap to raise kids in Korea. So I don't know. It feels fair to me that they're talking about what they can or can't afford. My mom was not having it. She said they have their whole lives to be there for their kid, but their dad, he doesn't have that much time left. They should do everything they can to support him. Wait, were we talking about love or money? My mom knew there was a difference right after a few back and forths. I just asked her the question that I really wanted to ask. Do you think uncle feels like his kids [00:29:00] don't love him because they're not giving him money? It wasn't just a question about my uncle and his kids. It was a question about me and my mom. About love and sacrifice, after all, isn't our willingness to sacrifice the ultimate measure of our love. Hi, and welcome to, I Feel That Way Too, a podcast where we ask some of life's trickiest questions and together find the courage to unpack them one story at a time. If you've ever wondered how life could be different, but didn't know where to turn, I'm here to tell you, you are not alone. I feel that way too. Ever since I was young, I felt responsible for taking care of my single mom. You know, growing up seeing her sacrifice so much for [00:30:00] me and my younger sister. When I got older, I just thought, yeah, that's my job now. That's just what you do, right? Whether it was taking a soul sucking corporate job, or using my savings to relocate her from Korea. I took the responsibility for caring for her seriously. I took pride in it. Whatever sacrifice I had to make felt appropriate, given how much I love her and how much she'd given up to raise me. But as an adult, I've been struggling with this more and more. If the only way I can express my love is by showing how much I'm willing to sacrifice, then how can I ever prioritize my own desires and needs? What do I do with all the guilt and shame and resentment that comes from feeling burdened by this responsibility? Have I become so Americanized that the idea of al piety feels suffocating? Am I a bad daughter? I mean, [00:31:00] that's such a common experience. This can be even more complicated in immigrant families because often we have those values, right? Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Asian values, filial piety, or we see fism as a really big value in immigrant households. So putting other people first, prioritizing the family over the individual, that's a hedged core Coley. She's a therapist, writer, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest mental health organization for children of immigrants. I've been following her on Instagram for years now, and I love the fact that she's making mental health relevant and accessible for Asian Americans like me, like learning Speaker 3: about words like enmeshment. So enmeshment is this idea that there are very loose or no boundaries within. Relationship. So in the family system, if we're talking about families, there are no boundaries. There is research that suggests that immigrant families tend to be more enmeshed because they're actually trying to protect themselves and their loved ones, creating these insular communities and [00:32:00] families from harm from the dominant society. So it was adaptive initially, but of course, just because it's adaptive doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy. We can see now that that kind of loose boundaries can lead to people feeling really dependent on one another. So often that's it's hierarchical in immigrant families, so it's a top down of dependency, but then children are being dependent on more, depending on your birth order, your age, your gender, your being dependent on in different ways. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Becoming someone my mom can depend on was kind of my life purpose for a long time. My attention was always on what she needed and how I could provide that as a kid. I rarely asked my mom for anything that wasn't practical or necessary. She was a single working mom, and I could see how hard she was working just to keep us afloat. Instead, I tried to help however I could. I'd hand over my New Year's allowance from my aunties and uncles. Whenever we went out [00:33:00] to eat, I'd always check the prices on the menu to make sure I wasn't picking something too expensive. I worked hard in school, got good grades, and told myself, this is how I can help. I'll get into a good college, land a good job, and make enough money to take care of her. That's exactly what I did. Right after college, I jumped into corporate America instead of chasing my passion for social justice because. At the time, what mattered most was bringing my mom to the US and supporting her financially. And honestly, I was proud of myself for that, starting so young, being able to help my mom. It felt good. Looking back though, I realized that I never really let myself just want things, you know, like things just for me. And then in my thirties, something started to shift. I found myself really struggling with our relationship. I was having trouble differentiating my desires from her needs. Speaker 3: So in the Western world, we talk about [00:34:00] individuation. When you're an adolescent, you were growing up and you start to build your unique interests and you start to prioritize your friends and you start to be your own person. A lot of us immigrant children didn't really get that we were still expected to do X, Y, and Z, so we didn't really get that chance to individuate around that age, you know, as we're 12, 13, up until 19, 20, 21. And so a lot of us are doing that later in life. I work with clients who are 30, 40, 50 years old who are like, wow, this is the first time I'm doing something for myself. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: At every crossroads in my career, my decisions were often tied to one question. How will this affect my ability to support my mom? Can I quit my job? How much money do I need saved up to cover both of us for six months? Even little decisions like whether to make a frivolous purchase came with this gnawing sense of responsibility. That kind of mental math had become second nature, but prioritizing my own joy and [00:35:00] abundance. Well, that always came with a side of guilt. It felt like my entire life was split in two. One part lived for me and the other for my mom, and as I got older, the tension between the two only grew becoming harder to navigate and more emotionally draining. Sahe calls this parent child role reversal parentification. Speaker 3: At the root of it, there are two types of parentification. There's instrumental parentification, which is more about taking care. In more practical roles of the family. So maybe, you know, cooking for sick relatives or making sure your younger siblings were okay, or if you were a latchkey kid, left at home alone, you know, going to school one time, making your bed, all of these things that you had to do for yourself or for your family because maybe your parents were out working or just weren't able to do it. And then we have emotional parentification, which is more about taking on those emotional roles. So being the family mediator, maybe taking on the role [00:36:00] of a parent or a spouse for one of your parents, because either one parent isn't more present or because emotionally they don't have the type of relationship where they speak to each other more emotionally or vulnerably. So a parent might use a child to do that. It's also about generally managing your parents' feelings. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: One year after many years of working with my therapist, I mustered up the courage to set some financial boundaries with my mom. Not necessarily because of money, but because I needed to shed the guilt. That gnawing feeling that whatever I was doing was never enough and that there was always more to give. I thought if I can get my mom to tell me the exact amount that she actually needs, then I can finally know that I'm meeting her expectations and I don't have to wonder if I'm not doing enough. I could handle the financial responsibility, but I didn't wanna carry the emotional weight anymore. So one day at a [00:37:00] posh new Indian Fusion restaurant that I thought she'd like, I mustered up the courage to ask her, can you tell me exactly how much you need monthly so I can better budget my own finances? Up until then, I was paying her rent and giving her allowance in random amounts, paying for whatever needs arose at various times throughout the month. She was visibly perturbed by my question. Without looking at me, she said, just give me whatever you can. I insisted, no, mom, I want you to tell me what you need and want. She replied, I just want you to do what feels good and right for you. I said, I don't know what that is, so I need you to tell me. I was getting frustrated. She was getting uncomfortable, so I said. Okay, fine. So if I said $500 per month, that's okay with [00:38:00] you. She looked visibly worried. See, so you know what you need. Why won't you just tell me, make my life easier? She burst into tears. Why are you making me say an amount? You want me to feel shame? I already feel bad now. We were both cry, yelling. People at other tables were exchanging awkward glances. She said, don't make me say an amount out loud. I want you to support me because you love me and because you want to, not because I'm asking you to. At this point, my voice was near full volume, tears dripping down my face from knowing I had caused her pain, but somehow my untamed anger kept spilling out. Despite knowing full well that I had done enough damage to my mom's heart, I desperately needed her to see my pain too. I shouted, [00:39:00] I do love you, and I'm asking for your help. Why can't you just help me? I never got my mom to say an amount. It was as if I had spoken the very thing that needed to remain unsaid. By speaking the unspoken. I had broken the delicate dance we'd been doing for decades where love meant anticipating needs and quietly fulfilling it to save face. Where protecting meant pretending not to see the weight we each carried, because naming it would make it all too real. Silence had become our shared language of care, but now we were at a loss for words. We packed up our untouched food without speaking and left the restaurant, and I never brought up the topic again. And here I was wanting her to tell me exactly what she needed so that I could feel less [00:40:00] guilt for feeling like I'm not doing enough, even though I was doing a lot. Speaker: Mm-hmm. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: And so we were at this crossroads and we couldn't see past each other's pain and our own pain in being able to connect to one another. And since then I've been really hesitant to bring up. Any conversations around money or boundaries with her, because first and foremost, I'm terrified of her feeling like she's not loved. That somehow if I bring this up, she's going to feel more like she's a burden and she's going to stew in her own shame knowing that I don't think she has. Capacity and the skillset to be able to hold her emotions right now. And then I feel resentful that I have to think through what she needs before I can just be a child and tell her to meet me where I am for once. Right? Mm-hmm. And so then the cycle just continues and I am not sure I, I know how to get out of it. Speaker 3: Boundaries is such a like. Trigger [00:41:00] word for so many of us, right? When you hear the word boundaries, you're like, no. All of a sudden that door closes and you say, this is not something that's gonna speak to me. Because it has this reputation of being like, cut people out. Say no, protect yourself. And those narratives really don't speak to so many of us who come from collectivist backgrounds where. We want to maintain a lot of these relationships. We just don't want it to feel as bad as it does. And so disentangling and learning how to disentangle our feelings and our values from our parents is often the work I do with my clients. And it takes a long time, right? Because you are sitting down, sifting through a basically a pile of values, norms, expectations, feelings, and saying, okay, this one belongs to me. This one belongs to my mom. This one belongs to my dad. And trying to figure out. Where does that leave you, and how do we move forward and build the sense of self with things that actually feel true to you? And a lot of that work is painful. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Trying to disentangle my definition of love from my mom's isn't the only thing that's been painful to navigate. It's also the [00:42:00] realization that so much of my upbringing fundamentally shapes the way I live today. Speaker 3: At its best, parentification can lead to having a lot of pride developing really good work ethic, being really mindful of your role in your family and leaning into that. But at its worst, it can be a form of emotional neglect. And I think that's really important because in my work with children of immigrants, a lot of times a lot of us don't realize that we have different needs when we're growing up. And sure, maybe you had a roof over your head, maybe you were, you know, sent to school, maybe you always had food on the table. And these are really. Big significant needs that were met, but were you also cared for emotionally? Were you allowed to express your emotions? Were you modeled and nurtured emotionally? So just being taught that even emotions weren't something that was safe to have. And so in that way, that's when parentification can become a sign of emotional neglect. So as by definition, parentification is taking on adult-like roles or roles that are. Older than you are developmentally at a young [00:43:00] age. And it can lead to people pleasing, it can lead to perfectionism, it can lead to constantly, um, monitoring our parents or other people's emotions or feelings. Right? Those are very common long-term consequences of being parentified children because we've never really learned how to take up space. People pleasing, Sahaj Kaur Kohli: perfectionism, hyper vigilance. Yeah. I've been dealing with all of them pretty much my entire life. One of my core memories from when I used to live in Korea was being invited to a friend's house After school, we were supposed to do homework together, and her mom sat with us going over everything and helping us out. I remember feeling so reassured, like finally someone was helping me in the way that Mamie feel safe and cared for. And because I wanted to be invited back, I was always on my absolute best behavior. I didn't want her to feel like I was being a burden or a nuisance, so I made sure to take my shoes [00:44:00] off in the neatest way possible. I made sure to wipe off any crumbs off the table, and I even offered to do the dishes. Y'all, I was barely 10, but I felt like I needed to be, liked to be helped. The truth is. I am resentful. I resent that I never got to just be a kid. I'm angry that I couldn't tell my parents that I was sad or hurt or scared. I'm angry that I thought care and attention were earned. By making myself small, likable, and pleasant. I'm angry that I couldn't allow myself to rest or stumble because I knew there was no safety net to catch me and that I thought it was easier to not want than to be disappointed. But for the first time in my life, there is something I want [00:45:00] just for myself. I want to heal desperately. I want to shed this weight so I can finally be my most authentic, free, and expansive self without needing to prove anything to anyone. I want to access the safety, abundance, joy, and ease that I didn't have as a. Child. Talking to my parents about my childhood wounds feels really hard. Not only because I'm worried about how it'll make them feel, but because deep down I truly believe that they loved me the best way they knew how so? How do I even begin to tell them that their best wasn't enough to protect me from harm? How do I share that? I feel resentful for the child that I never got to have without breaking their hearts in the process. And the hardest part, even now, I catch [00:46:00] myself prioritizing their feelings over my truth. It is like this unshakeable sense of responsibility where their comfort feels more important than my pain. How do I even untangle that? Speaker 3: You deserve joy and peace and ease. I mean, ultimately so many of us aren't able to give ourselves permission to be able to work towards joy and peace and ease. 'cause we don't believe we're deserving of it. And that is a product of, you know, these family dynamics, but also guilt and shame and not knowing the difference between those two. And then feeling like we automatically are. Bad if we aren't constantly pleasing other people. So many of us also struggle with that, uh, binary mindset. You know, if I feel this way, it's wrong. If my parents are disappointed, I'm a bad child. And that's not true. We have to learn. And [00:47:00] you have to decide at what point you're willing to accept that it might not change. And then decide what you're willing to tolerate. And that's the acceptance in grief work that is so hard and grief, I call it grief for a reason. 'cause grief never goes away. There's no resolution in grief. It's learning to build a life around it. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Yeah, that's so real and so hard, that whole acceptance piece, right? Knowing that it's going to take time, but also that there may need to be a time where you start to accept, uh, your parents for who they are and what they have capacity for and what they don't. What's been really difficult for me is the acceptance of the reality. And my desire to heal, part of me feels like I can't heal until I get the acknowledgement, until I get the validation, until I feel seen in my entirety by my mom and by my dad. And sometimes I feel like that just sets me up for more disappointment and sense of betrayal and resentment because I [00:48:00] am not getting the very sort of human and childlike need from my parents. But knowing that that may never come, and I can't depend on that for my healing, but that's been really hard to accept. Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that makes me really sad because I'm hearing you like deny yourself something that you deserve because you're still waiting for your parents to give you permission for it. When you can give yourself permission for it yourself, but for some reason you don't feel like you have enough agency or you're not allowed to be the one who decides I can heal. Even without my parents' acceptance. And that's a lot of the inner child like re-parenting work of like, you know, thinking about little Michelle and what she needs and how do you give it to her. How do you find power and strength in being able to be the adult who can say, fine, if you're not gonna take care of this little girl I am. I'm gonna take care of her. And it's really hard, right? And it's really painful, but. [00:49:00] It hurts me to hear you say that you won't be able to do this until you get that permission, because the reality is you may never get that acceptance and acknowledgement you're looking for from them. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: In high school, when I came out as bisexual to my dad, he just ignored it. He pretended he didn't hear me change the subject, and that was that we never talked about it again. And honestly, I was fine with that at the time. He didn't wanna hear more and I didn't want to share more. We lived under the same roof, but how much did we really know about each other? Anyway, fast forward many years later, I was on my way to a date with a woman I just met. I was on the phone with my dad and thought maybe this is a chance to let him in on my life, just a little. So I told him where I was going and casually asked, what would you do if I ever brought a girl home? I don't know what I [00:50:00] was expecting to hear, but I definitely wasn't prepared for his answer. Don't come home. He said Speaker 3: It's very challenging and I think I just recently had these conversations with a couple clients of mine where, you know, sometimes we have to ask ourselves. The greatest gift we can give people we love is letting them see us for all parts of ourselves, right? Every part of who we are. That's the greatest gift we can give someone we love. And not everyone deserves that gift, especially if they're not tending to it, nurturing it. And I see you like, as like a younger version of you, like vulnerable and raw and saying, love me, love me, love me. Mm-hmm. It's not just you, it's it's all of us. Right? We, we have these experiences. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: It wasn't until one Thanksgiving back at my dad's house that I realized just how much I did crave my dad's acceptance and love. Thanksgiving is one day [00:51:00] that we all gather at my dad's house. We ordered a Thanksgiving family meal from Boston Market that no one really likes chit chat and eat for no more than 40 minutes and migrate over to the living room to watch a movie of someone's choosing, usually me or my dad. This has been our way of bonding for as long as we started gathering. The movie that my dad, the same man who stonewalled me when I came out to him in high school, chose for us to watch, was Boy Erased a movie about a gay man's search for acceptance from himself and his family without making eye contact. He said, have you seen this? I thought you might like it. It's about a gay person. As someone who's never been interested in anything L-G-B-T-Q related, this was his clumsy way of inching closer to me. My dad didn't throw me a coming out party. He didn't wear a rainbow pin or proclaim how proud he was to be an ally. [00:52:00] There was no tearful heart to heart about acceptance, apologies, forgiveness, or unconditional love. And you know what? At that moment I realized. I didn't need any of that. Sitting side by side on that Costco couch of his, I understood exactly what his silence was trying to say. Speaker 3: And that's what happens in high context cultures, right? It's not about being direct, it's not about being explicit. It's more about what the contextual clues are. I think behaviors is where it all comes down to. So that might have been your dad's way of saying, I accept you and the way that I know how, and me watching this with you is my way of showing that in the same way that my dad. Never growing up or through my thirties, only recently started to say, I love you. But growing up I would go home and he would leave me newspaper clippings about mental health or about something I had told him about and those would be on my bed every time I would visit home. And that's, I knew, was his way of saying, I love you. [00:53:00] Right. We have the cut fruit anecdote that everyone has in an Asian household. Our mom's way of loving us is through food and by caring for us and caretaking for us. 'cause that's the role they knew how to play. I even had an interesting conversation with my mom where I've asked her, I think this was a while ago, where I asked her, what else do you wanna do? Like stop trying to do my laundry when I come home. Get out of the kitchen. We'll just order food. But then I realized it made her sad and I realized I was actually taking away her agency to love me in the way she knew how. Because that's not how I need to be loved. I've also asked my parents, did your parents ever say, I love you? When was the first time or the last time you, you heard them say that to you? What was that like for you? Oh, that must have been really sad that your parents didn't even say, I love you. You know, that impacts kids. And then using that as a frame of like. Are you thinking about how you don't do it with me? Like sometimes it takes these little kind of games before we can get to a place where we feel like we can get that conversation going. But even then, where can we find beauty in the relationship with our [00:54:00] parents? I'm sure if we, you know, really wanted to dive deep into it, we would. You would be able to think of like strengths in your relationship with your parents, ways that they do love you or see you even if it's not what you want. The way that they love you is still a way that they are showing you that they love you. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: When I think about my younger self, I sometimes find myself imagining my mom and dad when they were young, what were they like growing up? How many crushes did my mom have as a teenager? When did she start sneaking cigarettes? And what made her start? Who was there for my dad when he lost his dad as a child who told them they were loved? When was the last time someone asked them about their hopes and dreams? What did they long for? Growing up in Korea with my mom, she often told me her parenting philosophy. [00:55:00] I want us to be like friends. She'd say, she'd tell me stories about how she was always afraid of her mom, how strict my grandma was. How she never got the chance to fully explore her passions and curiosities. One day when I was in elementary school, she just said, you're not going to school today. And instead of taking me to school, she drove me and my sister to a farm outside the city. She told us real life experiences are more important than what you learn in textbooks. She didn't want us to live inside the same box. She'd grown up in. She wanted something different for us. She'd say things like, date as many men as you can before you marry. Travel as much as you can while you're young. Learn to drive as soon as you can. More than anything, she wanted us to be free freer than she ever got to [00:56:00] be. The way my parents love me and the way I love them. It's not something you'd find in some textbook. It's messy. It's complicated. It's nuanced, and it's big. It's so big. It is not the kind of love you see in those Hallmark movies where a white parents hug you and say, I love you at least 15 times a day. But I feel it. I feel it in the everyday moments, like when my mom insists on doing my laundry with her permanently sore back, or when she likes every single thing I post on Instagram. I feel it every time she sees me and says, you're so pretty with genuine awe in her eyes.[00:57:00] Michelle MiJung Kim: If you liked what you heard today, please tell your family. Tell your friends. Tell your people. Subscribe to our show and leave us a review. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Wanna hear more from me in Sege? Watch the full interview on the I feel that way. Two YouTube channel. And while you're at it, subscribe to our newsletter on our website at www dot I feel that way. Two.com. Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great [00:58:00] night. The post APEX Express – 9.18.25 – I Feel That Way Too appeared first on KPFA.

Some great questions this week about planning for the loss of the personal allowance, investing in GIAs, persuading an aunt to write a will, and much more besides! Shownotes: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/QA26  01:11  Question 1 Dear Roger and Pete, I enjoy listening to your show driving to work. You are both down to earth and humble with your opinions. I read a lot on finance and have been investing in stocks and share ISA since 2004 and VCTs since 2017. I have built a healthy portfolio of nearly 300k in VCT, 400k in Stocks and share ISA. I also have a healthy DC pension of roughly 700k and DB pension worth around 10k per year from age 60. I am approaching 50th birthday this year and so decided to use up some of my cash savings which is in excess of my target investment of 20k in ISA and 50 k in VCT(as unable to go over 10k in pension (due to annual allowance threshold). I know I am fortunate and I also live frugally as that's my nature and don't have too many wants. The question is if I have roughly 80k in mortgage and I have the ability to clear it, should I invest that 80k in VCT on top of my regular VCT allocation of 50k and get the 30% tax benefit(as I am unable to get much tax benefit from my pension) or clear my mortgage as the mortgage is coming up for renewal and likely interest rate will be 4-4.5%. I am torn as I understand in my head that 80 k invested is better than clearing the mortgage over a 20-30 year time frame, but as I am going to be 50 and would like to clear the mortgage and have freedom to decide if I want to enter a life of FIRE or have the ability to FIRE if I get bored. However, I have kids in school and so unlikely I will FIRE until they go to university. Sorry about the long question. Thank you, Fred. 06:25  Question 2 Hello Pete / Roger, Great podcast! I hope karma holds true and all the good you give out back comes back to you both! Question: I am a higher rate taxpayer who maximises their pension, stocks & shares ISA and other best tax sheltered places so need to also build wealth in a taxable GIA. What is best strategy for a higher rate tax payer to do this... dividend / income generating stocks or accumulating (non dividend paying) investments and pay CGT at some stage (regularly)? Thanks, appreciated as ever and hope may help others Ivana  10:43  Question 3 Hi, Nick (who I assume will read this first), Pete and Roger, I'm not sure if this is a suitable question for the podcast but here goes. How can we persuade an aged aunt that she needs to write a will, as us knowing what her wishes are is not sufficient. I have an aunt who has no children but she has said she wants her estate split equally between her 8 nieces and nephews but she refuses to make a will. The problem is that if she dies intestate there is an estranged brother who would be a beneficiary as far as we understand  and so what she wants to happen won't happen. Richard J 15:50  Question 4 Hi Pete and Rog My husband and I have been MM diehards for many years. We think It's a sad reflection of the state of nation when David Beckham gets considered for a gong before Pete does! I wanted to ask you about UK T-Bills because they are rarely (if ever) mentioned in your discussion of financial instruments. We are at retirement age I have a few DB pensions and a SIPP with Interactive Investor of approx. £300k. About ½ is sitting in Cash (including short term money market funds) because we want to draw out our 25% tax free allowance within the next 2 years and we want to minimise risk until that time arrives. I still want to diversify my low risk investments  as much as possible into bonds but my experience of bond funds is that they can also drop significantly with economic conditions whereas we want something to deliver us a (near as possible) guaranteed return. Our platform (ii) allows us to purchase bonds on the primary market however they are too long-term for us to see them through to maturity given our timescales. The platform has started to release UK T-Bills which seem typically much shorter term (3 or 6 months) and therefore appear to give us what we are looking for (guaranteed rate at a decent %) and very low risk. I know the % return is determined by the ‘auction' but it currently looks to be around 4.5% on average (especially the 3-month ones). We plan to apply the bond ladder concept and buy these T-bills over the next few years on a rolling basis. As they are very short term, if rates drop we can change our strategy mid-plan so I think it also gives us a degree of flexibility too. Have we overlooked something obvious as it seems to fit our needs perfectly for the next couple of years? We are very hands-on on the platform so we don't mind getting stuck into the action process (which looks straightforward). I'd be interested if you had any additional insight / comment on T-Bills being used for this or other strategies. Regards, Gilly 22:55  Question 5 Hi Pete, Roger, Thank you for the podcast, I always look fw to listening to it on my Wednesday commute. I'm trying to figure out when it makes sense to accept paying more income tax versus increasing my pension contributions? My total compensation this tax year is estimated to be £125k meaning I will lose all of my personal allowance with an effective 60% marginal tax rate on the last £25k of my earnings. Part of my compensation is made up of RSUs and very predictable quarterly bonuses. My base salary is approx £85,000.Last year, my total compensation was £105k, with a smaller base salary. My pension contributions kept my taxable income below £100k. I do not have any children, so the loss of funded childcare is not a concern. I've been contributing 15% for the last 5 or 6 years, starting when I was earning about half what I earn now. I chose that percentage to bring earnings under the 40% threshold at one point. At the start of this tax year, I increased my pension contributions to 20% because my income increased and I had no immediate need for the extra money. My employer only matches up to 5%. I am in my mid 30s and have roughly £140,000 split between my SIPP and my current workplace pension. Both invested in 100% equities in a global fund. I am considering increasing my salary sacrifice from 20% to around 30%, to keep my taxable income below 100k to avoid the loss of personal allowance. I'm hesitant because, playing around with the compound interest calculator, starting with a £140,000 balance, contributing £1,700 per month (20% salary sacrifice), and assuming a 7.5% return (which may be slightly optimistic), I would end up with a pension pot of about £1.5 million at age 55. Which might be too much. I have £80k in my stocks and shares isa, also in global equities and I'm on track contribute 20k this tax year.  I own a flat with a mortgage, fixed at less than 2% for a couple more years with no interest in over paying. I'm worried I might end up with too much money left when I (eventually!) die, I have no kids and I am not interested in leaving a legacy. Shall I just accept the tax bill and increase my lifestyle today given I'm already saving enough that I know I will be comfortable later in life. I read die with zero a year or so ago, and it resonated with me a lot. What else is there to consider? Thank you, Mark. 29:15  Question 6 Dear Pete & Roger, I have one question on my financial planning. This year I had received extra bonus which lead to my salary at the end of tax year of £123k. I have contributed £17k to my pension using employer contributions but remaining £6k is through my company stock which was vested and I got £3.1k income after paying 47% tax. My question is as my salary threshold for this tax year crossed £100k, for this additional £6k do I need to submit self assessment and if yes, do I need to declare this £6k full stock amount completely as a separate income even though I already paid tax on it, does this mean I am also liable to pay capital gains tax on this £3.1k? I look forward to hearing from you what are my options to submit to HMRC through my self assessment so I can calculate if I owe any additional tax or HMRC will refund me some money due to £17k pension contributions? Many thanks, Vai  

Tiff and Dana take a close look at a practice that wanted to get a handle on its growth. They discuss knowing numbers inside and out, forming a growth plan, keeping your team involved in any expansion. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am just so excited. It is Friday today. I don't know what day you're listening to this or what day it will drop, but you know, these are prerecorded. are not live. So that is not a shock to you. This Friday is almost ending. I think we've got a couple hours left under our belts for both of us, but I get to end it with Ms. Dana and I have missed you, Dana. I was on vacation last week and I feel like I barely saw you the week prior. And then this week has been crazy for both of us and   I love our time together. think I scheduled this extra time just to chat next week because I miss you so much. So, Dana, you're rocking this outfit today. I told you that this morning on our morning huddle. Yes, we do morning huddles. And this cut you've got on your hair, I've told you already, but I freaking love it. You look stellar today. So welcome to Friday, Dana. How are you?   Dana (00:51) Doing good. I'm excited to end, well, almost end my day with you two. I'm excited. I know we probably don't want to get into it on this podcast, but I can't wait to hear about your trip. And, you know, I'll take as much tip time as I can get. So I'm super excited to be here and to be able to chat with you and to maybe help some people too while we're at it.   The Dental A Team (01:13) ⁓ thank you. Thank you. know I did. I scheduled our time next week and I was like, that's our catch up time. But I can say I did figure out I know you recently went on a cruise. ⁓ I am not a cruiser. It's not my jam. So I figured that out. But it was a great sampler platter and I fell in love with Italy. So we'll say that and I've got a lot of stories. I literally yesterday I was like, I need to like, type these out or write them in a journal or something because you know, in 10 years, I'm gonna forget half of them and there are just so many stories out of   the nine days that I was gone. So I'm excited to chat with you. And we can share our cruise stories, I guess, right? They're wild. Cruises are wild. Cruise people are a little wild. If you're out there listening, like you're a little wild. I don't know about these 11 PM, like bingo nights and stuff. I'm like, guys, it's wild. But here we are.   Dana (01:59) Yeah. I left mine   feeling like you. not necessarily, I don't think that like I put it at the top of my list. Would I do another one maybe? But I don't think that it's at the top of my preferred methods for traveling.   The Dental A Team (02:15) Same, same,   same. But you know, Vegas isn't on my top list either. And it kind of felt like Vegas on water. So maybe it's me. I said 10, 15 years ago, you know, in my young years, I would have been all about it, you know, and I would have stayed up all night and gone to Rome the next morning. But at the age that I'm at now, not so much, not so much. I'm tired. My kid puts me to bed every night at like 8.15. He's like, all right, mom, we're part and ways. I'm like, you're right. I'm falling asleep on the couch. Let's go. So.   Dana (02:43) you   The Dental A Team (02:44) Anyways, anyways today, ⁓ Dana, I'm here to pick your brain. You've had, you've had monster success. think all of our consultants have had a lot of success, but you've had some pretty monster success with a few practices that you've got a load of practices under your belt, ⁓ over the years and currently working with quite a few rock stars and some that have come back around because they miss Dana so much. So, you know, if you're out there and you're missing Dana, you guys, she's still here.   We love her and we're keeping her. She's not going anywhere. But you have actually worked with, ⁓ a few of us have worked with clients out of the country too. And you specifically, you've worked with a handful. I think you've probably worked with more than any of us have out of the country. So today's conversation is kind of fun because it is chatting a little bit about somebody who's out of the country, like their successes that they've had. not in the United States, but.   for one, kind of notifying everybody out there, especially our Canadian listeners here. We do work with clients in Canada all the time. And Dana is actually a super stellar. She's trained a lot of us on a lot of things she's learned. And we've all been able to really kind of figure out how to manipulate some of our US standards and our ideas and our protocols and really translate them towards Canadian. And I think the biggest pieces in the Canadian world there are the billing.   and the way the claims go out and the things that you're able to build and collections processes, things like that. But we've kind of got that down. Dana did a ton of work with this practice in regards to that. So today's actually super fun because it's also really cool to see, I think Dana, I think it's awesome to see that like business is business. I say that all the time, like I don't care what your company is. We've worked with CPAs, we've worked with ⁓ podiatrists, we've had...   you know, chiropractors that we've consulted because business is business protocols or protocols. So it's really cool to see that even dentistry outside of the country, so many of the systems and the protocols that we use every single day that I would say some of us take for granted are totally transferable. So today's conversation, I really wanted to dive in and kind of pick your brain, on how this client was able to see so much success. They were really, they're really a fantastic client. And I know that they implement really well.   ⁓ And that's a huge piece of the success, you guys. If you come and we give you the tools and you don't implement them, I can't do it for you, right? So Dana, I know this client does really well in that aspect, but I mean, you took them, I mean, I'll let you tell the story, but their production, their collections kind of skyrocketed once you started really cleaning up some of those systems. Where do you feel like was the best starting point? Like I know you had like Keaton on,   on some things we always do, what was our journey like?   Dana (05:32) ⁓ The first thing is this office came in and they were they were doing well, right? They weren't sure how well they were doing though. So we really really started with numbers. ⁓ Knowing numbers inside and out, knowing expenses inside and out, knowing what goals should be. ⁓   you know, even knowing where payroll expenses were sitting and things like that. So it first first started with number review. So that we basically knew how well they were doing to be able to kind of put projections in place and look at growth trajectory and talk about like what growth should be or could look like. But it started really with honing in on those foundations and getting the doctor to understand.   their numbers and what they were telling them as far as ⁓ growth and opportunity that there were for the practice. So we really, really started in with that. We did create a scorecard so that they could look at numbers every ⁓ month. We looked at trends together and really, really got them comfortable in what the numbers told them. then it was like, okay, I'm ready for the growth, right? I can see, I think some doctors come in and it's like, well, I feel like I'm doing okay. And I feel like I want to grow, but I actually don't know if I can grow.   because I don't know like what my foundation is. So that was really, really eye opening. The other thing was this doctor was working a ton of time and didn't necessarily have any time to work on the business, right? It was always working in the business. So then it was taking the numbers and creating a plan to work them out of the business at least one day a week ⁓ and to also then create some admin time.   within the rest of the week. getting them to have those pieces really allowed for them to have discussions on what a growth plan.   looks like and it kind of helped us take off from there. So looking at the numbers, we realized, you know, the number of patients that they had, he really couldn't serve on, you know, solo. So then we started looking at associates and bringing in associates to the practice. And then when associate schedules started to get full, was like, what's next? And so then it was adding surgery services and sedation and getting hospital days. And so it was really, really fun. And then we got to a certain   point of growth and it was like, this is so much for me to manage. And then we built a leadership team. So there was just a lot, a lot of pieces that happened. ⁓ But honestly, and truly practice came in at about 3.2 million and was projected to end that year at five. Right. So it was a ton of growth, but it honestly and truly started with knowing the numbers and knowing where the potential was and what we needed to do, what levers we needed to do to pull to make growth really happen.   The Dental A Team (08:02) Well.   Mm-hmm. That makes sense. makes so much sense. So the projections and that growth plan that you did with them, how did you project that? So to know that you could take them from that 3.2 that they probably didn't even know they were accomplishing. It sounds like they were successful, but like you said, they didn't know their numbers. They didn't know how successful, which happens, think, a lot for our clients. We attract clients who are doing well and just don't know the space that is left to target.   So how did you help them find that within that growth plan?   Dana (08:47) Yeah, we first started just looking at like patient number because it was feeling like yes, they were doing well, but you know being like schedules were jam-packed. So looking at active patients and actually saying hey you do need to actually grow your hygiene department.   right? So to be able to serve the patients you already have within the practice. So then we really honed in on how many, how much hygiene time do we actually need, right? For this practice. And then looking at, and this is one thing that like where Canada does differ in their billing, especially for hygiene, they, can bill for time, right? We bill for services in the U S they can bill for time. And it does still illustrate a point though, that when we're billing for what we're doing time or not time, right? It's important. So making sure that there are standard billing.   and for the US, right, it's not necessarily billing, it's actually like perio and what we recommend in the time that we have with the patient, but really getting them calibrated on that and really getting them all moving in the same direction.   And then I was expanding the hygiene department. Once we've expanded the hygiene department, then we needed the providers. We needed the providers to do the restorative dentistry since we expanded the hygiene department. So we really started with hygiene and started with adding hours there, really making sure that we fine-tuned the billing process so that, know, hygienists were producing really what they should be producing for their time. And then adding, again, the doctors in there for the restorative that came out of hygiene was just kind where we started.   started.   The Dental A Team (10:16) Awesome. And it sounds like they were at a space then where I think a lot of doctors get to, or a lot of practices get to where it's either I'm good and I'm going to like steady eddy this and I'm just going to, I'm going to stay where I'm at, or I want to continue growing. And I think a lot of doctors get to that space and they think I'm supposed to continue growing. And that's not a hundred percent always the case. It's not necessary. You should continue to grow to keep up with inflation.   obviously, but I think ⁓ something that needs to be said is you don't have to add more hygiene. You don't have to add more doctors. You don't have to do all of those things. But if you want to continue to grow, you want to continue to see those ⁓ numbers increase the way this practice is did, that's a great step to take. And being able to first see all of the patients that you have currently, ⁓ not even including, it sounds like any new patients, we're just   trying to handle the current load, I think is fantastic. And then like you said, it sounds like you did a decent job really honing in, not just the billing, because we want to bill for time, right? I get that. But also honing in their peri-o protocols. while you're increasing, well, we added, you know, added associates. But while you guys were increasing the value on the doctor's side over there, you made sure, it sounds like that.   hygiene was able to keep up with the increased production on the doctor side. And I think that gets missed a lot, Dana, where it's like skyrocketing doctors and we're like, why is hygiene at 12 % of our production now? Well, because we forgot to focus on them. And I think that's something you guys did really well. And I'm sure your hygiene background helped you see that this is an important space. those perio protocols really, really helped, I'm sure. And how did their team do?   Dana (12:05) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (12:07) A big scare I think doctors have is getting hygienists on board. Our hygienists have a scare of maybe changing their thought process on a lot of those pieces. How did this practice do with implementing those changes in their period department?   Dana (12:22) They did a really, really good job, but I will say when we decided to kind of tackle that, we really booked out a set of meetings where they really were able to work through it, to look at each other's patients, to look at what each other built, to look at what each other did for those patients, to pull x-rays and FMPs and all of those things and really work through it together and really calibrate. ⁓ They had a series of, I think,   monthly meeting for four months and really really work through it together as well as at that point we had a leadership team and so having the lead hygienist really double check those things and have conversations with   you know, some hygienists initially took it on really strong and they did really well. Other hygienists didn't do quite as well, quite as fast. And so just having individual conversations, using some of the other hygienists as examples, and really letting those that were really strong give verbiage tips, give billing tips, give all sorts of tips to the hygienists who weren't as strong. And they really, really leveled up and learned from each other, which I was super proud of them for.   The Dental A Team (13:28) That's awesome. That's awesome. So the planning and the prepping, I think, is key and having those initial conversations, but then also having follow up. Because I'm sure some of those conversations were, like you said, seeing the other patients and being able to see those spaces. But I'm sure some of those conversations were like, how did this go for you? And what was your case acceptance? Or how many times have you talked about it? And how did that conversation go? And really kind of batting ideas back and forth. And I would venture to say you probably also   had those meetings set up for the doctors too, where they're calibrating. You've got your owner doctor and your two associates who are calibrating, especially as you brought on more dental surgeries and, you know, it looks like you guys worked on hospital privileges and all kinds of things for them. But I assume based on what I know is that those doctors had to calibrate as well. So he's not only training doctors, training hygiene, but they're all kind of training each other. Is that what you saw?   Dana (14:27) Yeah, it was. And that's why we really put leadership meetings in place. ⁓ And the cool thing about this growth, like you said, you get to a point where you kind of have to choose, right? Do you want to stay where you are? Do you want and he didn't want growth, right? But he didn't want to necessarily take on more dentistry. And I think that was a key thing to really talk about is what does that long term picture for you look like so that as we build it, gets you to those points. And so we knew it meant bringing on other doctors, we knew it meant expanding services in some ways to get them   massive amount of growth that was wanted, but without it being him, right? Because, like, young kiddos family, like wanting to just prioritize that and have days away and, you know, totally understand that but how can we still have growth and have that happen?   The Dental A Team (15:03) him. Yeah.   Mm-hmm, that's awesome. That's awesome. Now within that growth trajectory, and I know we have a lot of team members that listen, not only is this helping the doctor and the practice and the associate dentist and all of these different pieces, but it's also helping the team because I think when you have, that kind of a growth trajectory for a practice and you've got a growth plan set, you've got the goals set, this also trickles down into the growth of the team.   Right. And so I think something you mentioned, right, was the leadership team. so one, you don't always have to have a leadership team in place before you have the growth. First of all, because I think a lot of people are wondering like, what's the chicken? What's the egg? Which comes first. And it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't, you can have one, but you don't have to wait for the growth. You don't have to until you have one. Right. But part of that growth trajectory and the growth planning was that leadership team.   Right? And so did you kind of help them timeline that and kind of figure out, well, when you get to this many patients, when you get to this many people, when you get to this, like this is where we need to bring somebody up. Did you help them timeline it and kind of org chart that and like job descriptions? How did you guys work that?   Dana (16:26) Yeah, OrgChart played a big piece in it because we knew like with this kind of growth you're going to need additional team members. I knew Leadership Team was a big piece because it just   didn't want everything to fall on owner doctor, right? So yeah, we did. We looked at org chart, we timelines, like when we were going to add new seats to it, what we might need for the future to get there. And that was really fun. Because I think when we build an org chart, we tend to just have it be like, well, what do I have? Right? Who do I have? And what do they do? And I build it based on that versus like, no, actually, what do you mean? Right? And, and what will you need in the near future? It's okay to build an org chart for now and an org chart for the future. And then   The Dental A Team (16:56) Yeah.   Yeah.   Dana (17:08) map out how you get there. And so that is definitely something that came into play here and was super impactful ⁓ in the journey.   The Dental A Team (17:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's amazing. So if we were to peel this back a couple layers for our listeners today who might be in a space where they're like, gosh, I don't know if I can grow. I have the capability and the capacity to grow? What would you say, Dana, is a first step for someone who's really in that space or even trying to figure out if they want it or not?   How did you, like what's that first step look like with your practices that you've worked with or this one specifically that you're like, is where we start, this is how we see that.   Dana (17:52) ⁓ I think that first it becomes like the vision. Where do you want to do? What kind of growth do you want if you even want growth, right? And what I mean by growth is like getting bigger, right? Or getting larger. And what are the pieces that you want? And then secondary to that, and I think in conjunction with that, knowing your numbers and where the health of your numbers stands so that we can kind of align those pieces together. ⁓   The Dental A Team (18:04) Yeah.   Dana (18:21) And I think that those are the two key foundational pieces that I think really helped to drive this doctor too.   The Dental A Team (18:27) Awesome, awesome. So it's kind of looking at where do you want to go? And then looking at what you're capable of right now. What have you done? And I think that gap in between, then you have to kind of figure out, well, if we're doing 3.2 now and I want to do 5 million, how do I get that 1.8 in the middle to get to that 5 million? And then that kind of backtracks into, well, how like financially, right? So dollar per hour, doctor's dollar per hour. How many chairs do we have? What's our dollar per chair?   per day, what's our daily goals, of figuring that out. And then time-lining, I know that's, you know, I did a ton of time-lining for a practice that just grew like crazy. And I was like, okay, by this point, you're gonna need this many people. But knowing that gap in between to be able to set some parameters to really see how far you can go. ⁓ And I guess maybe action items for today would be.   Go look at your mission, your vision, your core values, make sure that you're in alignment still. Those change, you guys, they change constantly. What you wanted 10 years ago is probably very different than what you want today, and that's okay. You don't have to stick with the business plan you set out with when you first started. I think, Dana, you're 100 % spot on. Go look at that mission, that vision, make sure that it is in alignment, and then figure out where do you want to go, and then what does that mean? And if you need help with that, hello at the TheDentalATeam.com., we're always here for you, you know that.   But really figuring out what that means and then looking for that gap so that you can project and look to see. There's a lot of prep work that we didn't talk about today that goes into adding associates. So I would hate to blindly walk into anything and just tell people that an associate is a great idea. I don't think that it's a horrible idea whatsoever, but you have to be prepared and there's a lot that goes into that. just build out your plans. If it's something that you look at and gosh, maybe it's 500,000.   You want to make an additional million next year. Look at the hours in your schedule. Are you capable of that? And maybe there's some scheduling tweaks that we can make. We have found in many, practices just implementing blocked scheduling increases $5,000 a day. We have seen crazy amounts of money come into the production just by fixing the scheduling. And I think I've ventured to say that this practice had to do some of that as well.   and really, really maneuvering what those schedules might look like. this is great, Dana. Thank you so much for all the work that you do with all of the clients that you see, the work you do with our consulting team, and you're constantly finding new avenues and helping us to expand our entire team. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing this today and just sharing all your love with everybody, Dana. I appreciate you.   Dana (21:11) Anytime, thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (21:12) Of course, of course. All right, guys, go do the things. Mission, vision, core values, peel back those layers, really look for those gaps. And then I would say look at your open hours. I found a ton of money just sitting there, like, could have been, could have been gotten for so many years for so many doctors that was just open hours and mismanagement of schedules. So double check those things. Drop us a review, you guys. We love those five stars. We love to hear what you loved. We love to hear ideas that you have.   You know I always say people really do read those so go do it. And Hello@TheDentalATeam.com we are always here to help you and if you want to sign up for a free practice assessment it's on our website TheDentalATeam.com. You guys we will help you figure out what your next best growth movement is whether it's with us or without us we don't care we just want to give you the tools. So thank you all and I hope you have a great day.

Sqwigmarr has multiple strange encounters, new MM songs. blah blah blah. I dont wanna write this one out... lol.   Livestream here! subscribe or save: twitch.tv/derlincountybrando or links here!

Meet Dr. Tamir Qadree who grew up one of 11 children in a 2-bedroom apartment in Chicago. When I asked him how 11 children and two parents lived in an apartment with only 2 bedrooms his response was that it is all about family. We all made it worked, and we all learned to love each other. Tamir heard about California before high school and wanted to move to that state. A brother, 8 years older than Tamir, was recently married and agreed to take Tamir to California since this brother and his new wife were moving there. Tamir always had a “servant attitude” toward others. He felt that he could learn to help others and, after attending some community college courses he decided to go another route from school. Tamir always felt he was selling and in sales. He tells us about that and points out that we all sell and receive results from others who sell in whatever we do. Dr. Qadree eventually discovered metaphysics which is about self-help and learning to adopt a mindset of improvement through self-analysis. We discuss this in detail as you will hear. Tamir offers many good life pointers and lessons we all can adopt. This episode is pack with useful ideas that we all can use to better our lives. About the Guest: ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results' “The Dean of Dynamic Results” has a Double Doctorate in the field of Metaphysical Philosophy, specializing in personal development coaching, mentoring, mind, and mystical research. The Powers of the Mind, Influence and Attraction has captured the minds and imagination of the world over the past 35 years. Dr. Tamir Qadree is a leader in the field of this study, and says that, “WE Can All Achieve Dynamic Results”! Tamir is the author of several books, audio programs. He conducts workshops, 2 day retreats and does one on one, exclusive coaching. His clientele has ranged from business developers in the fields of Network Marketing, Direct Sales, Real Estate, Legal, the Medical Professions, and Self-Help enthusiastic individuals, both nationally and internationally. Dr. Tamir Qadree, (Also known as TQ) carefully guides his audience and clients through the vast field of sales psychology, effective closing skills, prospecting mastery and all of the necessary communication skills needed in today's world. He also teaches and demonstrates the connection between ‘The Results the Reader or Listener Gets,' and his or her ‘Emotional States and Habits.' Tamir teaches his students how to ‘Feel' rather than to simply ‘Reason' everything through. He teaches that, feeling is more about ‘Intuition' while reason is often about ‘Ego' and knowledge gleaned from books on one level; but when they are both combined (Feeling and Reason) you have your road map to success and contentment. Tamir Qadree, writes with clarity, precision, and direct language, that is easy to read, simple to follow and are full of great content. His podcast, (Dean-Cast) are usually not planned. They flow from inspiration and direct knowledge from experience. What you read and listen to in his array of programs are genuine, authentic, and straight from ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results himself.' The information Tamir delivers, whether from audio book, eBook, audio programs or Dean-Cast, or Live Events, are carefully select and digested to bring to the reader, the listener, the audience, the best information. Often there are differences of opinion in matters of, ‘what to eat,' or ‘how to lose weight' or ‘scientific and technology.' These are all necessary to grow, to develop and to keep the mind moving and expanding. Welcome To The World of The Dean! Ways to connect with Dr.Tamir: New Podcast, "Dynamic Results On Fire!' Every Monday! https://tamirqadree.com https://learn.tamirqadree.com Https://coach.thedeanofdynamicresults.com dynamicyou@gmail.com (17) Dr. Tamir Qadree | LinkedIn (20+) Facebook Dr Tamir Qadree (@theresultscoach1) | TikTok (381) The 'Results' Coach - YouTube https://www.Instagram.com Ebooks and an audio program: Clear Vision – Mastermind Mastery Click and Grow Rich – Mastermind Mastery Super Potential – Mastermind Mastery The Esteem Success Factor – Mastermind Mastery About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I've told you all in the past about a program that I attend every so often called Podapalooza. And on the 19th, excuse me, the 18th of June, we had number 16 in the patapalooza series. And one of the people I got a chance to speak with was Dr Tamir Qadree. And Tamir is is our guest today. He calls himself or I want to find out if he calls himself that, or somebody else calls him that, the Dean of dynamic results. I want to hear more about that, certainly, but we're really glad that he's here. He has been involved in dealing with metaphysical philosophy. He's a coach. He does a lot of things that I think are very relevant to what we hear from a lot of people on this podcast. So I'm really looking forward to having a chance to chat with you. So Tamir, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:25 I'm glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Well, we appreciate you coming and spending the time. We met Wednesday the 18th of June, and here it is the 24th and we're chatting. So that   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:37 works. That works out for me well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:41 so tell us a little bit about the early Tamir growing up.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:46 The early Tamir growing up, sure, interesting story that's always fun, because I grew up in Chicago on the west side, and during time I grew up, I grew up in in the 70s, that was coming out of the turbulent 60s of the youngster, then coming out of that, coming out of the the other protests and the civil rights movement and all that stuff. So I grew up in the 70s. Basically, life to me was a lot of it was. I had a lot of happy times in my life, although we had so called very little. My mom had a home with a partner with 13 children, 13 people at all times, two bedrooms. I don't know how she made that work, but she did. We had, we stayed cleaned the house. My like bleach. We smell like bleach. We smell like pine. Saw and so I got my my my cleanliness from that. I don't know how she did it. And we all ate, okay. And what I got from my childhood, me, my brother, we we've always been innovative. We've always been results driven, going out, knocking on doors. Before there was a Door Dash, we were knocking on doors, taking buying people's groceries, going to store for them. We're cutting their yards and doing odd things to earn money. So I've always been go get a results. Driven guy, not afraid to ask and looking to get the results, not just for the money, but the money was good to have. But I've always been like that. That's in a nutshell. Where I've always been,   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 well, how did you all sleep? 13 people in the apartment?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 04:22 Well, it was my mom, my dad, before they separated, and it was 11, and then plus cousins, so that's 14. Hey, you know, buddy Michael, you make it work? Yeah, people say how it's not how. I think why is a better question. Because you're a family and you can make it work. It can work easier than people think it can, because we have love and togetherness and closeness, and you have two parents that are on top of their game is doing the best they can do. It works. That's a very good question. And you're the first person to have asked me, how did that work? You're the first person.   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 Well, I can imagine that there are ways to make things work. Um. Um, as you said, you do have to be innovative, and you all have to learn that it's important to get along, and that's what family is really all about,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:09 that that's true and that we did not we had to get along. We live in a house with that many children, five boys and six girls, no six boys and five girls. I reversed it. You have to learn to get along. You have to learn to respect the different genders. You have to learn respect authority. You have to learn to share how to care for other people. Interesting about that, my mom would always bring people in from the street. She'd find people less privileged than us, believe it or not, let's we'll have one bathroom, by the way, less privileged. She would buy them clothes and feed them, and we abuse that person any kind of way we get it, where we get it? Okay, so I got that from also that's and that that leads me into how I am now.   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 Well, we'll get there. So you went to school in Chicago, and how long did you live   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:58 there? Why would the school I started high school in California? Okay? So California, okay? My freshman year in Cali. Yeah, California.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So what caused you guys to move out to California?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 06:10 Well, my aunt came out maybe 20 years before. Then my sister came out. Two years after that, my sister came back bragging about California. Everybody in those days, everybody thought California the land of milk and honey, back in the Midwest and back east California, Judas, land of milk and honey. It really is. People will go California represented freedom to us, the promised land. It really did sort of a promised land thing. And I was just determined to get to California. My story, if I can tell you about me getting to California, we're in the household. I was 14. My sister had came and promised she'd take me with her. And I said, Okay, I'll go. I was her favorite, she promised. So I told everybody on the block, I'm going to California. 13 going on, 14 year old kid, and have people excited. He's going to California. Some were jealous, and I was telling people I would knock on their door and go and go pick up groceries for them and cut yards. And after the summer passed, my sister couldn't get me any people started laughing at me, Jeremy behind my back. He's not going to California. And some of my siblings were, of course, probably a little jealous, little envious. He's not going some people, yeah, you're not going anywhere. You stay down here with us, in this area, with us. And so I said, No, I'm going to California. And I watched this story the weekend before going to high school. My mother said she lied to you. She's not going to get you. She lied to you. You can give it up. My cousin said she lied to you. I said, No, I'm going to California. I had two pair of pants, one pair of shoes, two pair underwear and two shirts. That's all I had. I was going to go to school. Well, that Friday came, I said, I'm going to California that Friday. This is all summer. I've been saying that people started doubting me. My brother walked in the door. My older brother, eight years old, to me, walked in the door about an hour later and said, I just got married, me and my wife decided to go to California. Monday. You can come with us. That's why I got to California.   Michael Hingson ** 07:52 There you go. Well, and again, it's really cool that family sticks together somehow, Too bad your sister misled you, but you you made it work.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:05 Well, I don't think she so much misled me. She couldn't make it work. She wanted to do it. She couldn't find the finance, little time or the effort. She couldn't make it work. She didn't make it work. You know, she obviously lied to me. That's what they thought. But no, I don't think I never thought that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 Yeah, well, I understand. Well, at least you made it and you got to California. And so what did you find when you got out here?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:27 I found it to be what I thought it's going to be okay. I saw I was driving, we're driving. And came over the mountains. We saw the little the little lights on the freeway, the little on the road, the little reflectors. We're like, wow, there's diamonds in the streets of that night, right? With those reflected, we never seen nothing like that before. Wow. They're diamonds in the street. And then we look around like at San Jose, and I would see the lights up in the air. It was the mountains, with people living in the mountains, yeah, with the lights, we I thought, Oh, my God, this is heaven. I didn't know. Yeah, please know those houses the lights. So anyway, it was what I thought was going to be. Here's the land of milk and honey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 For me, sure. I'm not sure what caused my parents to want to move to California. We moved in 1955 right? In fact, I mentioned earlier, we did patapalooza on the 18th of June, and today is the 24th that is the day we're recording this. So you'll see when this actually comes out. But June, 24 1955 was the day we arrived in California from Chicago. And I don't know what caused my father to want to sell his part in the television repair business that he and my uncle owned and wanted to get a job in California, whether they thought it was the land of milk and honey or what I've never, never did learn. But nevertheless, we moved out to California, and I think there was a lot to be said for they wanted to be out here. They felt that there were a lot of opportunity. And probably they wanted to get out of the city, but we did. So I have now been out here, other than living in other places as an adult. Part of the time I've lived out here 70 years. 70 years. Well, we came out in 1955 we got here on June 24 1955 so it's pretty cool. But anyway,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 10:25 I wasn't born, but you beat me. Well, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 10:28 Well, I think there's a lot to be said for California. It's, you know, I can make a lot of places work. I've lived in New Jersey, I've lived in Boston. I've lived in other places in Iowa for a little while and so on. And so I know there are places that are a lot colder than California, and where I even live in California, and there are places that are warmer but still enjoy it well. So you moved out to California when you went to high school here. And then did you did college. Where did you do college?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 11:03 Well, I did some community college at De Anza. I did some courses over there. Most of my learning came from self study, community college courses, self study and university. Finally, University of metaphysics. I got involved in metaphysics over 20 years ago, which is, metaphysics is really philosophy. Philosophy comes from the Greek word, I believe metaphysical from from philosophy. So it's philosophy. It's what it is. I got involved in that about 25 years ago, when I met speakers like Anthony Robbins Les Brown, I started listening to Norman, Vincent, Peale, you've heard of him. People like that. People like that. And then I got into I've always been, I've always been a voracious reader, even in Chicago, I've always been a voracious reader, someone that wanted to know. So my educational track really started. See education in the United States and in a lot of places, is them pouring some menu. But true education is what you bring out of you, is what you learn about yourself internally. That's the true education, instead of pumping stuff in what's inside of you. So you take what's taken outside of you and mix it with what's inside of you, and there you go. So I've always been a self starter, but the University of metaphysics is really, really with the jewel to me. I said there's actually a place that reward or they give you a degree and what   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 you love. And where is that university?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:25 It's in Arizona. It's the largest metaphysical university in the world, the oldest metaphysical university in the world. In fact, Harvard just start off in metaphysical degrees in my in my field, about four years ago, which is a great thing, great. They finally came around to it and and they recognized it. Wait, wait a minute, they start offering the same degrees, metaphysical degrees. Now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 well, but still, so did you go there and actually study there, or did you study remotely, as it were,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:56 instead of remotely, like Phoenix and all it's remote. I went there, of course, I graduated and going back and doing, get my third doctorate, to graduate, go across stage two. You have, we have ceremonies and all that. And we have, you know, we're renowned throughout the metaphysical world, throughout the world, as far as philosophy, right?   Michael Hingson ** 13:14 What got you to decide that you wanted to take up a study of metaphysics? You know, you went to community college. You studied some things there, and what did? Well, let me do this first. What did you do after Community College?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 13:26 Community College, I was family man, working building. See, I've always been a self starter. I've never jobs. Never settle with me. See, so I've always been a student, a study here. I've always been someone to read the books. Mm hmm. Listen to the motivational thing. Listen to the philosophy. I've always wanted to know deeper knowledge. And I had my brother that brought me to California. He's always been a student too. He was in the service. He's always been a a person that study and contemplate. He studied politics, war, philosophies, religion, and I follow. I did the same thing. So it's something that's been inside of me, believe it or not, for a very long time. I've known this since I was like eight years old. I've actually known it, and people that knew me knew it. In fact, one lady told me this about four years ago. She knew because I was a baby. I hadn't talked to her in about 40 years. She said, Oh my God, she's really my cousin, but not blood. And she said, Oh my God. And she started telling me about myself. Hence, she told me. She said, when you were a baby in the crib, you would always stand up for what's right. How can I do that in the crib? She said, when somebody's done wrong, you let them know. When you're a baby, when you guys start to stand up, walking up, you'd always stand up for what's right. So I've always had this sense of me, of service to other people and a sense of justice. Okay, certainly, I've had my pitfalls too and all that. That's not the point, but I've always had that with me. I've always had that thing about service and helping others. So getting into self help, which is what metaphysics is, self help and self development gets it was right up my alley. It was right down my lane. It. Was a straight strike. When I did that, it's just a strike. It's a fit like a glove. The glove does fit, by the way.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 Well, what did you What is but what did you do after college? You had to support yourself and so on, until you decided to take this up. What did you do?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 15:16 No, no, I've been in sales all my life. Okay, I've been, I've been a salesman all my life. You've been sales, okay, yeah, sales, people, sales, good sales people will never starve. No, you always find a way to make it. That's it. I've been selling all my life, yeah? So that that that should answer that, yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 15:32 Now I understand well, and there's nothing wrong with being a good salesperson. I think that so many people don't understand that and misunderstand sales, but there are also a lot of people who do truly understand it, and they know that sales is all about developing trust. Sales is all about guiding somebody who needs something to the best solution for them, not just to make money, but as you said, it's all about self help and and helping others.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:01 Well, well, it's actually something real quick about sales. People that have issues with sales don't understand one thing you have issues with people that use sales in unethical way. Yeah, everything is sales, the phone you use and the headset using the house you get you to buy it from someone that sells the water that comes to your home is put there by somebody signing the contract. That's sales. Who going to bring the water to our home? What company? PG, e Edison cup, whatever. All everything is based on sales, sales communications. But because there's some people that are shysters, you blame the whole pot. You blame everybody. That's not the way it sells. Sales is sales is community. Sales is service. That's what sales   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 is. Sales is service. That's what it appear. And simple,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:45 yeah, it's not some sheisty guy or woman trying to con you. And no, that's a con person.   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 There are too many of those. There are way too many of those, but never every field. Yeah, in every field, yeah, sure. But what you say is true, sales is service in every sense of the word. And the best sales people are people, people who really understand that and put service above basically anything, because they know that what they do, they can do well, and they can help other people and make money, which is also part of what they do need to do, and that's okay.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 17:18 And without sales, nothing goes around. Sales is really communication. Sales connecting a product or service, fulfilling the need, getting rid of a pain or something you really don't want to bring you to what you want that sales is fulfilling, is uprooting the pain unfulfilled desire and bringing you to the pleasure side of getting what you need, whether it's food, clothing and shelter, all sales doing a bridging the gap, and the salesperson is a communicator that bridge that gap. And the reward is, once you have two satisfied sides, the company and the individual, the product, and the reward is you get paid to do it, right? So now it's like you're getting paid to do what you love, sure.   Michael Hingson ** 18:01 Well, and there you go, well. So you have, however, been a person who's been very focused on the whole concept of self improvement for quite a while. Yes. So what got you started down that road?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 18:19 Here's what got me started down that road I'm gonna go way back to Chicago again. I remember I was 13 years old, and my uncle used to get he was a big beer drinker, and he just talked to me, invite me over and my auntie, and he wanted me to talk. He's wanted me he won't hear me talk. I always had these philosophical sayings, even I was 10 years old, philosophical quotes, these ideas that I didn't read, but just came to me, and one day I told him, life is a dream. We're here to play roles, and we leave the earth. You wake up. In other words, there's no real physical body passes on, but you wake up and you're boom, whatever. Anyway, these philosophies like that. And he was at the lake with me trying to catch fish. He was so busy drinking beer and talking, he wouldn't catch no fish. He told me, talk. Keep talking. I kept talking. And so one day, he brought out my other uncle with us, and we sit down at the lake. And my other uncle was saying, I wish he'd Shut up. He turned to me and say, Talk. Listen to this boy talk. He kept doing that. And one day my aunt said this, he brings Tamir over because he want him to talk. That's why he brings them over. So that kind of encouraged me to make me realize that I had something of value, not just talk, something to say, he would ask me. And then I knew, I knew, from then on that I had a place in life to assist and service others will not just talk, but practical ideas to get results. So I've been known that for a very long time, allowed me to be very successful in sales. I've been top producing billion dollar companies allow me to write books and to be on share the stage with some great people like Mark Victor, Hansen and Jim Rohn. It allowed me to get into a space to where I am now, where this flawless confidence that I can be doing half whatever I want to be but I. I'm able to show other people how to do the same. Those are receptive and those that afford me to show that I'm not for everybody. I understand that,   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 right? You can only do what you can do, right? So you started down this, this path of dealing with self improvement, and how did that lead you into metaphysics?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:24 Well, remember now metaphysics and self is the same thing. It's just a different word. It's the same thing. Self improvement come from metaphysics.   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 But what made you decided that you wanted to get, like, an advanced degree in it, and actually get degreed in it   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:37 after studying over 1000 books in like a two year period. Literally, literally reading those books. Okay? After going through that kind of I went through a breakthrough in 2005 and I went to a breakthrough session called Breakthrough to success. And the gentleman told me something that's very interesting. I said, in this circle about 50 people around me, like I'm a fish in a fish bowl, he told me, I had high self confidence for low self esteem. In other words, I don't know what self esteem was. I had developed a Harvard vocabulary. I had spoken on stage and coached clients. I was top producing network marketing company. I don't know what self esteem I never thought about what self esteem was. He told me that if, for some reason, it really hit me, it really hit to the core of who I am. What do you mean low self esteem? You have had self confidence. And here's what I went home and I cried that night. I realized that what I realized what that meant, because I accept, I have to accept that, but I did. Here's what that meant. Self esteem is self confidence how you feel you can do outside of you. Self esteem is how you feel about yourself, okay, and there's no one like you. And I realized that self esteem by loving yourself and appreciating yourself, not trying to be anybody else, not trying to wish you with somebody else, not want anybody else, money, fame or fortune, but being you and loving you. When I got that, when I got that, my whole world shifted. Mm, hmm. It shifted from this having this confidence, knowing what I can do. I can communicate and speak and sell, but how do I I wasn't give enough attention to myself and appreciating who I was, my own value and that that go,   Michael Hingson ** 22:08 and that certainly is something that people around you would sense, who who understand how to do that, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 22:16 Well, this guy certainly did, and, yeah, I guess he's the only one that says that, not just me, but other people. I said, Wait a minute. I said, is I never, had never thought about that. Then I wrote a book called from that. I mean, I must have cried for about 30 days straight, every day, tears of joy in my heart. I didn't care about fame or fortune or impressing nobody. I wasn't trying to be this big speaker, this big guy. I'm just being me. I'm I love me. I didn't care about none of that, but myself and what I call God. And from that point on, I begin to really get things come to me that I never have. My mind really opened up to why I didn't care about trying to please anybody I was enjoying every moment. And I wrote a book called reclining master, awaken one minute to healthy esteem. That's when I wrote that book. It talked about, it's like an autobiography. It talked about my journey to understanding that and what happened to me, what what caused me to have low self esteem, what caused not to even understand what self esteem was, and I was a child in that book. Remember the movie The Wolf Man, with Lon Chaney, Cheney, That movie scared be Jesus out of me. My siblings would take me and tell me I was The Wolf Man, Wally Wolf. They call me The Wolf Man, right? And That movie scared me, man, and it really had a psychological effect on my on me growing up, right? I was really, really afraid, and didn't know that that child in me was still afraid. It was afraid all that time. And that's the part that was really hurt by the low self esteem when I discovered that game was on. It was over as far as that. No, I love me. I'm good enough. I am that you're a bet, we're both that that's all there is that was it. Game was on after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:53 So does the boyfriend scare you today? No, I   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 23:56 laugh at that. Okay, it's funny. That's funny as heck. I laugh at it. It's funny as heck to me and like, Wow. I look at again, like, wow, really, seriously, I can see how that could affect somebody. You tell a little kid something like that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Lon Chaney in that movie, comes across as not having great self esteem. But that's another story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:16 Look well and i It's not to say I mimic that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:19 I manage that? Yeah,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:23 people too. I get to fight side you bite, people too.   Michael Hingson ** 24:27 So when did you essentially start doing your own business and start working toward coaching and teaching and finding ways to work with clients?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:39 2000 No, 1994 I began to really study the self improvement movement. And I would see guys like Les Brown, that's, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I like that. I was already that. I was already teaching. I was already doing that. I didn't know that was a field. I've told that. Years ago, a guy told me that, and I. The other field, like that. And I started to study those guys and see what they do. And I'm like, really interesting. They're doing their thing, they're talking they're assisting people. Okay, I can do that too. Then I get involved in network marketing. Network marketing is one of those fields where people are. They're some most open to self development I've ever seen out of all the fields, network marketing and direct sales, they are the most open people to self development. They will spend the money on themselves. People spend money on everything, on fancy cars, bigger housing, they need clothing, everything. But they lot of more spend money on good books and to self improve, right? So when I, when I, when I saw that, I said, Wait a minute. Hmm, here we go. Here we go. This is what I want to do. This what we'll do. So I took that with my sales ability, and I started to have that finance me as I go see sales and self improvement. The same thing, the best sales people have charmed character charisma and class. They have charm. Character charisma and class. They ask questions. They seek to see understand other people. They seek to appreciate other people. Those who appreciate it show appreciation. They seek to listen and to learn and to find out what the customer or client want. And they try to match that with that, out of all sincerity, and that's why I love sales. Sales and self improvement go together. Yeah, they go right together.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 And the best sales people are the ones who will even say, if their product isn't the right product, it won't work,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 26:32 it won't work. And that's the best coaches, the best anything. If I was coaching the client today, and she's a prospect and we're talking, and I told her that I don't want your money. No, no. This. This is a preliminary call. Okay, here's why. I don't know if I can assist you or not. I don't know what I have will assist your situation. I don't even know you yet. How can I ask you for money? She was so appreciative of that, because most people in our industry, they talk to you one time and offer you something. Wait a minute. You don't know what Michael needs. You haven't even diagnosed him. You heard what he's gonna say. You had a canned thing. You're gonna it was canned what you're gonna say to him. You do what you're gonna say. Well, me, I'm different, Michael, I don't know what I'm gonna say to you. That 30 minute call is really discovery call, sure. And if you qualify, if I qualify, let's set up another call in that call. Then at the end of that call, we may come to something, then I can make your offer. So I feel I can help you at if there's a match, boom. That's what a doctor does. No. Doctor, no. Doctor you go to is going to tell you your jaw hurt. You said, No. Doctor, my thigh hurts. Is a pain? No, your jaw hurts that doctor's a quack. That's a lot of coaches do. A lot of them are quacks. They just read something and they want to apply to micro plat. To Michael, apply to me. That may not even fit me. I may not be the one to help Michael, sure, and I have enough integrity and faith and confidence to command to know that in other way, I don't have commission breath. I'm going to get mine regardless. And nobody can stop   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it, sure. Well, and again, it's how you operate, and it's the ethics you operate with which is very important. Ethics.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 28:05 In fact, I it's, this is a shameless plug, but I'm gonna do it anyway. My third doctor I just finished, called conscious business ethics. Conscious business ethics. You see how we went from metaphysics to to the secular world, and Harvard went from the secular world to metaphysics, we both came together now. So we're doing one. I'm doing one now on conscious business ethics, which is a really big issue in business today. Oh yeah, business are more concerned about their bottom line than the people that work for them, until they treat their employees like customers. They always have those problems they don't need,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 and it's unfortunate, but I think there have always certainly been people who weren't overly ethical, but I think it used to be that a larger number of businesses were more loyal to employees than we see today. Now the response always is, this is what the stockholders want. That's what we have to listen to, and that's all we listen to. And that's just not true.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 29:05 Not only is it not true, is it not true? What a lot of companies are turned around, well, they begin to understand the value of self improvement, the value of treat the value of leadership versus management, the value of being a boss versus being a leader. There's a difference. Managers push leaders, pull managers tables. Do leaders encourage you. They change languages on how they talk to you, how to present to you. They that you understand. You have a family. This person has a family. Have needs and concerns outside this business, the way a lot of businesses do it now and have done in the past. This the business. This is our life. This what we want, regardless what you want if you fit in or you don't, well, they ran up on a I'm a rhino that never worked with me, brother. I am psychologically unemployable. I will work a job. I have to, even today, if I say it's quote, unquote, have to. I would do I gotta do to get what I gotta get. But I'm a rhino, I'm gonna I'm psychologically and terminally unemployable. I was taught by Yogananda, which is, you. One of my favorite teachers wrote Autobiography of a yoga you may have heard of yoga under and I've been his student for 15 years, and he said something very important that already knew, but he affirmed it, if you're, if you're, if you can't be subordinate to other people. Some, some of us are like that. That's not your style. Then do what you got to do until you get where you get where you got to go, be respectable who you with, take it and then move, but be working your way out of it. Yeah, but I, I've been terminally unemployable all my life. Brother, a renegade.   Michael Hingson ** 30:32 Well, but that doesn't mean that you're not useful part of the system, or trustworthy or reliable. It just means that you operate in a slightly different way than most people are used to doing.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 30:46 Well, yeah, it means this You're right. It means this You're right. It means that you look into Apple to give you something. I'm going to create my own apple. That's what it means. I'm that kind of person. We need those kind of people. If we didn't, you wouldn't have this laptop. You wouldn't have the technology you have right now. Those people were innovators, entrepreneurs like me, you I'm an entrepreneur. I'm the entrepreneur solopreneur. They want to be apreneurs, and there's not a preneurs Don't even try go to work for somebody else. Don't even try to be apreneur. Some people just don't have it. So no, it doesn't mean anything that. It means that being psychologically employable. Mean that, okay? He is IBM, he is Apple, okay? He is Tesla, he is Cadillac, he is American airline. I'm like that. Whether I achieve that level, it's irrelevant. I'm one of those people that's all. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 31:36 So for you, who are the typical people who would be your client, who are your typical clients or your target audience today, entrepreneurs.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 31:49 I mean entrepreneurs in a real sense, those who understand sales and psychology, entertainers, athletes. Why say those people, those in network marketing and sales? Because those people traditionally understand mindset. They're coming to the mindset they they promote the books in their seminars and the reading and bringing the speakers. They're open to they're open to it, to what I have. They're ready for it. They're ready for it. That's my audience. That's my target. And I hold it on target, because people say, Well, my audience is everybody. Well, not true, not true. If you want to catch bass, you go to a bass lake. I have specific audience that I'm targeting, and I'm focused on the article that audience is open and receptive and to level I'm at. I don't teach kindergar. That's not my specialty. Okay, they gotta start too, okay. I teach those people that are in the field that want to get it, they have a glimpse of it, they want to get it now. They're ready. So with me, it's like a university level coaching. It doesn't mean you gotta, you have to, you have to have 10 years in the field. It means that you're open and receptive, to listen, to accept and to work. When I give somebody assignment, if you don't work it, don't talk to me about it, unless you have a question about it. If you didn't work it, I don't talk to you about it. I want you to. I'd rather you fail first, then come back to me, because the other side of failure is success. We got to tweak it or do something. But if you don't do the assignment I give you, let's talk about the next thing, not that we'll talk about that. When you do if you don't do it, I   Michael Hingson ** 33:17 won't talk about it, yeah, unless there's some real, substantial reason why you didn't or couldn't do it, but that's different, but that's a different story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:26 Amen. I agree with you that that's that's true, brother,   Michael Hingson ** 33:30 that's always a different story, right, right? So you, at the same time, you have to earn money and survive. What are your thoughts about the whole concept of money?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:44 Money is a terrible master, but a wonderful servant. Yeah, money is money is necessary. Money has this place. Money is good, money is not bad, money is not evil, it's not wicked, and nothing like that. Money is neutral. Money serves you according to your level of service and how you expected to serve you, how you think about it. Money is a terrible masculine it's a wonderful servant. Money is that thing where can serve you, but it can be the one of the worst tyrants, second to sex, lust, that is the worst. But let me get back to Money. Money is a tool. Money is energy. That's why they call it currency. And it must flow. If it's not flowing, it ain't growing. If it ain't growing, you ain't knowing you feel me and that mean, that mean you ain't sowing the seed that rhymed. I just made that up, by the way. Good job. I just made that up, dude, off the top of my head, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 good job.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 34:38 This came to me. It happened to rhyme, we learning rhymes. Hickory Dickory Dock, the mouse went up the clock and all that kind of stuff. So that's what I think that's that's money. The concept of money is very fascinating, because money is the most easy thing I've ever manifested. See, money is actually easy to manifest, but people make it hard. Here's why, because they're running. After it. While you're running after it, it's right there in front of you, but you're chasing after it, and you want to knock on other people, to get with a light sheet and still to get it. Some people, some willing to con someone, to do unethical things, to get you to do it like the old commercial. What's this taste good? Like a cigarette should? Well, there's nothing good tasting about tobacco. I always   Michael Hingson ** 35:21 wondered that myself, having never smoked, but yeah, I hear you,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 35:24 yeah, yeah, but telling you that, telling you that, getting your mind that frame gets you to spend your money. And we're so money conscious. You want to get money. I want to spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend. How about respecting the money? How can I make this money circulate? How can I one give something to somebody else in a service or calls? Okay, it's very good to do that, whether you call it tithing or just giving. That doesn't matter with the percentage. It doesn't matter. Give from the heart someone else. And then find a way to circulate that money. That money is actually energy. It will, it comes back to you. It actually comes back to it circulates. You create. You create a universal energy, a Goodwill has nothing to do with religion, politics or nothing, but I just said nothing. I just said has something to do with life and the laws of the universe, albeit which works the same for everybody, for everybody. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 36:17 Well, you clearly want to help people, and you want people to obtain results. What do you do? Or how do you how are you able to consistently help entrepreneurs and your clients and so on to achieve dynamic results and positive results? Another way of saying is, what do you do anyway? Go ahead,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 36:38 right? What do you Well, I'm a content creator. I create content. Okay? I create content. I have a course that's coming out really soon called create dynamic results, and it's a seven transformational steps to show people how to make these subtle mind shifts that become permanent. Okay? And I'm fortunate enough to be the guide through this program. In that program, what they learn to do is how to take those habits, those nagging, nagging habits. See, habits are what make us what we are. Habits. Period, you brush your teeth in the morning. It's a hat bleeding. You gotta think about you're gonna brush your teeth. You're not gonna think about it. You gotta get up and go do it. Period, in the story, you're not gonna more about it. Not gonna say maybe I don't feel like today, you gotta do it Okay. More like them do it okay. And because the habit, because that little bit happens, ingraining your brain, it's like a fluid. It's been ingrained, and it's like a track. Now, as soon as you wake up, soon as you wake up, waking up and open your eyes and get out of bed, is actually a trigger to go brush your teeth. Now it's a trigger, so you got to do it. Well, bad habits are the same way you have habits you don't want. They're the same way those habits you hear certain words or certain things that trigger anger certainly trigger hunger, certain thing will trigger lust, greed or violence or just whatever. Okay, so in order to have the habits that, that, that that that that support you, that benefits you, you have to transmute those by setting yourself on like a seven days. I'm just using seven days right now. Say, say, You tell yourself today I'm not going to get angry, period. Imma, remain calm. Now, when you say that, I guarantee you, I will guarantee you, I'll bet you $25 to a bucket of beans that you're going to get plenty opportunities to get angry that day. People going to say things. They're going to do things you're angry. Now here's the thing. The test is to remember what you said, what you said when it comes, ignore it, and then replace that with a different you keep doing that, you're going to change that habit. Eventually, it may take a year you're going to change that habit. So you've got a habit of procrastinating, not following up on your goals, your plans, not prospecting. You can change that habit by going through certain steps, by changing those grooves in the brain, okay to have that record play. One good example is that is the mother Turkey. The mother Turkey is one of the best mothers in creation. The mother Turkey love that baby, cleans that nurtures that baby. Just really, really, really, really, really, okay. And when that baby chirps, that baby chirps, that baby chirp that the turkey hearts melt. That mother Turkey heart will melt when that baby chirp, period. So now you have let me change some you have this pole cat. Pole cat is the universal enemy of a turkey. When Turkey see a pole cat, that Turkey go crazy and get crazy and want to kill. It this hard to death. Well, there's a spirit one day where they put a pole cat near the turkey, and the turkey went crazy, gonna kill it to protect his young. Well, they had a little walkie, a little radio inside of the a little device inside, the inside of stuffed turkey. That shirt like little baby birds, red Turkey chirp that Turkey. When that pole cat shirt, that Turkey was disarmed, that Turkey nurtured the phony pole cat. Cause of that chirp, nurtured it. Heard that shirt. That's what habits are. You're a certain sound, and you act like a robot. So actually, we're puppets on a string. This is getting a little deeper that. That's, in essence, what it is. So in assisting people how to change those habits and. Then how to concentrate Focus. Focus is so big in self improvement. All people great success have great focus skills, but very few people teach you how to focus. Have anyone ever taught you how to focus? Very few people have techniques like that how to focus. Then there's self analysis. When you self analysis, you analyze yourself. Then there's willpower, which is creative power. Then there's transportation and sexual energy, and then the words you speak to yourself, those six or seven things I just named, are the key and foundational to all of our success.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 The only thing I would add to that are the words that your inner voice is saying to you, and you need to learn to listen to them.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 40:36 That's and that's what I said about that self analysis. Yeah, right, right. And that's where you come in, concentrate and meditation, yeah. And so one thing about meditation really quickly, real quick meditation people, especially a lot of religious people, think, well, I'm this or that. I'm a Christian, Muslim or Judas or Jew or Buddhist. I don't do that meditation stuff. Stop, stop, stop. Here's where knowledge becomes power when you understand and use it. When you want to get stronger arms, you can do push ups when you want to shoot. Be a better shooter in basketball, you practice the shots anything you want. You practice Okay, in order to strengthen your mind, where you have the one point of focus on where you're calm you meditation is an exercise of the mind. That's it. No matter what religion you are, be quiet and learn how to calm down, to quiet the thoughts, all distracting thoughts. Once you quiet the thoughts, and then that lake becomes clear without any ripples, and you see the pure reflects of the moon, that's gonna become calm. That's when you get some stuff done. Now you can focus on that thing with laser focus and get it done. Nothing great was ever done without laser focus, ever? There are no accidents,   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 right? Well, and also just the whole idea of clearing your mind, letting yourself calm down. It's perfectly okay to ask yourself, How do I accomplish this? The problem with most people is they won't listen for the answer, no. And whether you want to say it's God telling you your inner voice or whatever, it's really all the same thing. But the problem is, people won't listen. And then when they get the answer, they go, it can't be that simple. People don't listen to that inner voice.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 42:20 It's very powerful. I meant to the inner voice thing. I love meditation. I love doing it as once a little girl in the church, she's a Catholic, and she was she whenever, I believe the church, she'd sit there about 10 or 15 minutes every week. And so the cardinal, whoever given the service, came here and said, How you doing, little girl, when she stopped, Hi, how are you? I noticed after every service, everybody leave the chapel. Your parents leave outside too. But every Sunday, little girl, you sit here, I think she's about 12 years old, you sit here, and you keep praying. And he asked her, why may I ask? Why? Why? Why you do it like that? She said, Because. Now, watch this out of the mouth of babes, because everybody's praying to God. I want to hear what God has to say to has to say to me. Mm hmm. I want to listen. Bam. Mic drop. That's it. Mm hmm. Mic drop. That's how powerful being quiet in meditation is meditation exercising the mind. So if you say, Well, I'm a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, I'm a Baha that doesn't matter. Meditation had nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with that. Has them do it like you said, Brother internally, who you are, your inner self. This is that still small voice. And by the way, all those religions say that, but few people understand that. They all say the same. They all said the same thing. I know because I study them. I studied the world religions. I studied Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah. I studied new thought. I studied that stuff. I love it, but I understood something about it that we're all actually one. We're what we're actually one,   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 viewed as the many. Do you generally find that you can get through to people who want to be your clients. Or how does that work?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:06 Can you repeat that, please?   Michael Hingson ** 44:07 Okay, so somebody comes to you and says, I really want to hear what you have to say. I want to learn from you. And you've talked about the fact you don't teach kindergarteners. You you teach people who are further along the process. Do you? Do you ever miss assess or find that you're not teaching the right person or they just don't want to listen to you once you get started and working with them?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:29 I've never had that happen. I thank God never. I'll tell you why. When people come to me, okay, people want to make money, they want to increase their sale, they want to increase their contact, they want to increase their network. They will increase their productivity by me showing them how to increase their transformative value, to enhance their performative value, to get to the results they want. Here are the results we talk about. We talk about what they want. Now see when I'm talking to you right. Now, give me the philosophy, but the coaching is very different. The floats, the culture is actually the philosophy in action with what they're doing. You. I use the language they're doing, interacting what they're doing, how their prospect, who they're talking to, the attitude they have, the ideas how to shift certain things. What goals you hitting right now? Okay, what do you do? What what's what's the top person in the company doing? What are you doing? How do you rate yourself to that? What are you doing right now? Let me show you how to increase that by 25% 50% in the next month. Let me show you how to increase that. So I'll take what they're doing and I'll remember now all what I'm saying is good, but if you can't take it to fit the people and make it practical, it's just talk. All books, all books, religious or whatever, are just dead writings. Until you make them come alive, we have to make them come alive. So I take what I'm take talking now, and I apply it to the network marketing, the sales, the people, into coaching, the mind technology, you have to apply it. So I never had that problem. I haven't I thank the Creator for that. Never had that issue. Never, never had that because anyone even hit   Michael Hingson ** 45:59 that, yeah, because you've had people that that when you accept them as a client, you've you've communicated with them, you've assessed what their needs are. They tell you what their needs are, and you come to agreement as to they're going to listen to you to deal with fulfilling those needs, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 46:17 You're going to follow it like in my in my course, that I'm at the part of the course creator. I'm court doing the videos right now, the intro and outro and all that. This one thing my class got to understand. When you get this course, if you don't do the work, don't talk to me about it. Now, if something come up where you can't get it done, you need a way to get it done. Let's talk. But you just didn't do it. You have not earned the right to come to me and tell me that, which is what I have to work before, right? Yeah, talk about before. So, so I'm really into getting you to move and to feel that result. See, everything is result of something, and you need to prove that to yourself. And no one can do that, but you, no one's gonna do but you, no one can do but you, no one should do but you, damn it. You should do it, but you can be guided,   Michael Hingson ** 47:07 that's right, to how to do it. But then you have to make, but you have to make the choice to do it.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 47:14 That's right, see, and I don't care if it's Warren Buffett, I'll give you example about here's what coaching is all about, and mentoring is all about it's all about human beings having two things that they want to do. They want to avoid pain and suffering and gain pleasure, reach the desire. There's only two motivators we have. There are no other motivators, no other motivators in the universe. We only have two motivators, to avoid suffering and pain and to seek happiness and feel the desire. Okay? The idea is to solve the pain puzzle so that the person, place or thing, can enjoy the pleasure principle. If I can solve I don't give a warren buffett right now. If Warren Buffett, with all his billions, would approach me right now, if he had a problem that no one could solve all his life and it gnaws at him, he won't answer to it. He's dreamed about all these years. And if he met me right now and he felt that that's the one he can solve that problem. He would hire me right now. He would hire me right now. That's right, yep. Well, it doesn't matter how much money you have. When I learned that, when that dawn upon me, game on for anybody. There are people out there that are my clients, and I know it. I don't care how what your status is. I'll give you the king of England or the pet the United States. I don't care if you the Grand Poobah. I don't care if you have a trillion dollars in the bank. If you got an issue, and I'm the one you see can solve it, you're going to pay me, and I'm going to work with you, period. That's the commitment, though, there are no boundaries, right?   Michael Hingson ** 48:39 That's That's the commitment. You are committing to do it. You're committing to help. You're committing to bring your skills to it. Bring my   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 48:47 skill set to it. I don't have to have as much money as you to do it. I ain't got to have a bigger home than you to do that. I ain't got to be Michael Jordan to help. Michael Jordan if he had the problem of pain. So I don't have to be that. Once people that coach and teach get past that. A lot of my scared, why that person can't? Oh, hold on, I might have a answer to a thing that Anthony Robbins need help with. We all need some growth and development. We all do until we reach that level of a certain level where we're there and we're just helping other people. But most of us, most of us, 99% of us or more, have pain problems, get who you are and give you a story about Joseph in the Bible. You've heard the story about Joseph in the Bible, how Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. Okay? He sold slavery by his brothers into prison, something he didn't do. And while he was in prison, he began to be known as his philosophy and his work and his spirituality. And people would talk to him. So one guy got out, Joseph said, Please tell the king, yada ya, or whatever. The guy got out and forgot about Joseph. Then tell Well, years more, more years passed by. Another guy got out. He went and told the king, or whatever, about Joseph. I know a guy can solve your dreams. I'm paraphrasing the story. And the king asked Joseph to come out. He's, I heard you can solve my problems. And. Joseph told him how to solve his problem. Well, Joseph became a billionaire overnight. Yeah, he solved the king's problem. That's not the exact story, but you see, no. So it doesn't matter who you are or your status in life, once you get past that thinking, well, I ain't, I can't do this. I only live in No, no, no, no, no, no. They do it work. It's like, it's like, it's like, needing, getting to car accident, okay? And your stomach is you got a gas in your stomach, okay? And say you're multi billionaire, okay? Or say you the biggest athlete in the planet or the richest king in the world, you're not going to say how much money that doctor make, or nothing like that. You're going to say, Please heal me. You don't care about that. That doctor had the skill to heal you to take care, and that's you want to take care. That's all you want. Gotta say, I don't want that doctor flying so and so from so and so. You're not gonna do that. And a lot of people understand that when you have something to give, you give it. You hone your skills, you bunker down, you walk with thoughtless confidence, command, you have the self esteem, doing the ambient maybe move forward. That's why I work with entrepreneurs and I will work with people that are not on that low. Get me wrong. Now, I'm not saying I will work with people that are newbies. All depends on the newbie. If they want sales training, I'll give it to them. Yes, I'll give it to them. They want sales training. They want training on how to close, how to be better communicated. Sales are the communication daughter, a daughter of charm character, Chris man, class, and the more charm character, charisma and class you add in appropriate form, you're able to connect, communicate and close. That's seven C's, yep, sell the seven C's.   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 I counted four. Where are the other three? Charm, charm characterism   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:40 in class. That's four, communicate, connect and close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:44 Okay, just checking on you, because once   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:47 you have those four, you open to bed. Line of communication. Add some more things in there. As far as you know, psychology and persuasion tools. Now you're connecting. Once you connect, then you can close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:59 There you go. Just wanted to make sure we got to all seven.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:02 We got all Thank you. Thank you for holding me to that.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 No, I hear exactly what you're saying, and it is, it is so important to do that. So tell me what you know, with all the things that you're doing, you're clearly a person who cares, what's your take on giving back and charity and so on?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:26 Everything, everything, everything. And I'll tell you why I say everything, everything is a result of something the universe and life is always giving me something. Mm, hmm. See, life is what I call the creator's gift to us. What we give back is our gift to the creator for being on this planet. We are creators. Giving is a natural part of your being, who you are, your power. When you're your power, you can give from the heart, okay? And when you give, believe me, it's going to come back to you anyway. Now you don't give it for it to come back. You give it because you want to service and love because you you realize that we're one giving, giving from the heart empowers you. You want to feel empowered give you want to feel empowered every time somebody get paid, give something. I don't care if it's 10% of 5% give from your heart and keep it to yourself. Yeah, much as you can. Keep it to yourself, because you spoil your own goods. Keep it to yourself and let it flow the way it's going to flow, and then you will grow, and then you'll know, yep, how it goes. That Ryan too. I just made that up. That pretty   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 well rhymes, yeah, but, but it's true. It's true. Too many people have to show off. Oh, I gave a million dollars to this charity. The problem is, you're not you shouldn't be doing it for notoriety. You should be doing it because it's the right thing to do. It's what you want to do.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 53:55 If somebody found out that's different, like Warren Buffett is one of my favorite. Warren Buffet is one of my favorites. Warren Buffett is one of the most humble giving people. His money 70 billion he gave out. It got out there because there's so much money. I bet he didn't, he didn't promote that. Okay, now I look, I look at one athlete. I won't mention a name here, always, they always say about how much he gives and how much he gives. And build this and build that. Always talk about that, about that guy, the other guy they compare him to, never opens his mouth about his giving. He gives all the time. Never opens his mouth. One guy always told me what he gives, and I said to myself, dude, that that that's taboo. This the opposite of giving. I'm not saying your heart ain't in it, but you're allowing this narrative to be there without comment on the narrative that's it's that is personal, that, in fact, giving to me is sacred. It is sacred. You're giving to help humanity, other people, my gift, my charity, which I have to do today, by the wa

We have another episode for you where I'm joined by Anna Mackay, an original co-host of the podcast with Anna Lutz and me. Anna lives on the other side of the world these days, but she and I were able to catch up and record a few episodes this summer while she was visiting the US. I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed talking with Anna Mackay!Podcast Episode 108: Nourishing Teen Athletes with Anna Mackay In this conversation, Elizabeth and Anna Mackay discuss the unique nutritional needs of teen athletes, emphasizing the importance of fueling for growth and performance. They explore tips for building healthy relationships with food, the role of parents in supporting their teens, and practical strategies for fueling teen athletes in a number of different scenarios. The discussion also highlights the signs of under-fueling and provides resources for parents and teens to navigate nutrition effectively.Key takeaways* The unique nutritional needs of teen athletes.* The importance of food for growth and performance.* The roles parents play in fueling their teen athlete.* The importance of meal planning and preparation.* Suggestions for navigating teen athletes who don't want to eat breakfast and those who are picky eaters. Links to resources* Podcast Ep. 69: Getting Diet Culture Out of Sports Culture with Rachel Manor* Podcast Ep. 25: Sports Nutrition for Kids and Teens with Leslie Schilling* Leslie Schilling's Dietitian Development Hub * Podcast Ep. 28: Nourishing a Dancers Mind & Body with Monika Saigal* Podcast Ep. 59: Eating Disorders and Athletes with Shane Jeffery* Hydration Essentials: All Fluids Fit* Opal Podcast: The Appetite* Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC* Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition TherapyDid you miss my previous conversation with Anna Mackay? We chatted about meal planning for college and boarding students. * Episode 104: MealPlanning for College Students TranscriptI am so excited to say to our listeners that I am here with Anna Mackay, who, as those of you who've been with us for a long time know, Anna is really the impetus for starting the podcast during COVID. So Anna, I'm so excited you're here. Welcome, welcome.Anna Mackay (00:20)I am equally excited to be here and in the same time zone. Elizabeth (00:26)Yes, yeah.That's why we haven't been recording with Anna, because Anna's been in a very different time zone and busy ⁓ becoming a registered dietitian, which she is now officially a registered dietitian. yes, yay. And Anna is also a certified personal trainer. And so we thought she would be a great person to chat with.Elizabeth (00:51)Fueling teen athletes. So we'll jump in and let's just talk for a minute to let our listeners know kind of what you would say are the nutritional, you know, what makes the nutritional needs of teens, ⁓ teen athletes rather unique.Anna Mackay (01:06)Thanks.So I really like this question because I don't think it's something we think about. You sort of just, think often it's approached as like a one size fits all. But the main reason that teen nutritional needs are unique is because teens are still growing and developing, right? Their bones, muscles, their brains, their hormones are still maturing. And then you add training into the mix.And it doesn't matter what type of training, we could be talking about football, dancing, gymnastics, any type of training that is physically taxing to the body. And their nutritional needs are going to go way up. Food isn't just fuel for sport either. It's the raw material needed for building a strong, healthy body for life. And so that is what I think makes the nutritional needs for teens specifically unique. I'll also add that where adult athletes would be primarily focused on performance maintenance, teens are still in a phase of physical development and need food to support both their growth and performance. So they are going to need more energy in the form of calories, more protein, potentially more fluids, and more micronutrients like calcium and iron, for example, because of that growth and training.Elizabeth (02:31)So they have to pay, they and their parents really have to pay closer attention to their needs without creating an issue, right? Without it becoming a struggle. Well, so how can parents support teen athletes in building flexible, trusting relationships with food and really support them in.Also, this is really more than one question, support them in meeting their needs.Anna Mackay (02:59)So to answer, think the building of flexible and trusting relationship with food first. I would be interested actually Elizabeth in hearing what you think about this. For me, the first thing that comes to mind is never ever ever tying food to appearance. And for teen athletes, this is going to be very particularly important for the athletes who are in your very, what I would call body conscious sports, gymnastics, swimming, diving, also the sports where they are still, I think, at the elite level, weights are still being taken, wrestling and rowing, it is still happening. Maybe forgetting a sport where that happens, maybe boxing. Because as soon as a kid starts tying their food to how they look, it's impossible to have a flexible relationship with food because they're going to always have that little voice in their head saying, are you sure you want to eat that? It'll make them second guess their intuition. And so instead we can focus on how food helps them to perform by saying things like, this is going to help you recover faster, or this will give you more energy at practice.Keep conversations about weight or size out of it. And I'll just add to that, that it's really important for parents to also model this - modeling body respect yourself.Elizabeth (04:21)Yes, that's a huge one. I'm sitting here nodding and our listeners can't see me nodding. But yes, that's such a valuable point. Even if parents aren't saying anything, just watching, just the teens seeing how the parents are eating and seeing their relationship with food and physical activity. And the earlier that starts, the more solid a foundation the teens will have.Anna Mackay (04:45)Yeah, and one more thing I would add to that is we really, really need to get away from this idea that carbs are bad - absolutely essential. They are an essential component of good nutrition, both generally for every day for all of us, but particularly for athletic performance. Elizabeth (04:53)I'm so YeaAnna Mackay (05:07)You know, and I live on the other side of the world now, and I hear this all the time, and I'm sure in the States this is still a big thing where everyone's kind of... carbs are bad, reduce your carbs and protein's king. We need both. We do. So, and you know, this belief that sort of looking a certain way is a part of athletic success is also incredibly harmful. I think the bottom line is that under fueling hurts performance, it slows recovery and it increases the risk of injury and burnout. And carbs are a really important part of that fueling.Elizabeth (05:39)Do you want to talk kind of high level on why carbs are so important?Anna Mackay (05:44)Well, it might be over-complicating things to go into the sort of biochemistry of it, but I think we can explain that, or it might be helpful to explain that carbs, when we ingest them, are converted into glucose. And glucose is how our bodies get energy. It is our brain's preferred source of energy. It is also your muscles' preferred source of energy. So that's where all your energy comes from. And the protein is the building block that helps provide the muscles with it's muscle building block, I think. Is that how you would explain it?Elizabeth (06:19)Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I think one thing that just popped into my mind when you were talking about this is, you know, parents are, you know, even if parents are modeling at home and really have laid a foundation for a positive relationship with food, it can still be so difficult because the parents are up against, and the teens, and the coaches are up against all the messaging that's out there in the media. And so that adds another layer to really making sure that teen athletes are fueled adequately.How can parents support teens to fuel eating for performance and recovery after practices and games? You really, do you feel like you said that? Anna Mackay (07:08)I mean, we could talk about packing snacks and sort of planning, being prepared. I think where people can get caught out in the planning for, or not planning, being able to support themselves adequately for performance and recovery when it comes to their practice schedules is in being under prepared or not being prepared at all. So if parents can help out with planning ahead so that your busy team, because these team athletes are so busy, they are, you know, you've got rowers getting up at 4:00 in the morning to hit the river at whatever time.If they already have packed in their sports bag, you know, their water, their whatever snack bars they like, or maybe it's a Tupperware with apples with another Tupperware that's got their peanut butter in it, whatever it is, if it's already in the bag, then it's going to go to practice with them. And the same way, you know, whether that's morning or afternoon, right? So you don't get caught with nothing to eat.And then making sure that you've got things available like the jar of peanut butter, the oats, the hard boiled eggs, the bars, whatever it is. And you're not going for perfection, right? You're going for consistency, variety, and just making sure that you're not skipping snacks or meals.Elizabeth (08:38)And the part about not going for perfection is so important. So let's just talk for a few minutes about how parents can help their teens recognize that there isn't a perfect way to eat for additional performance. How can parents ensure that eating remains a positive experience rather than this anxiety ridden exercise.Anna Mackay (09:03)Yes, there is no such thing as eating perfectly. It literally, it just doesn't exist. And most kinds of tracking and counting can quickly become obsessive, especially during the teenage years, which are, they're hard enough without angst over eating and how many steps and how many calories are in. So instead, we want to encourage listening to hunger cues, eating regularly.And including a variety of food. So consistency, adequacy, and listening to hunger cues. So, yeah, no, I was just gonna say, and unless prescribed by a dietitian for medical reasons, tracking isn't necessary. Elizabeth (09:45)100%.Anna Mackay (09:46)I don't care how elite the athlete is, really I don't. You know, and look, I will say here, I do know some dietitians who are on the team at, I'm talking really elite levels, where they may be working with an athlete on some sort of something that could be considered tracking, but the good dietitians will not be having the athlete do it alone. It will be medically supervised. And that's a really important thing to know because that's a very distinct thing from, you know, a high school basketballer doing it all by themselves and getting, you know, potentially falling down that rabbit hole of obsessive tracking.Elizabeth (10:25)Right. It's very easy to get bogged down in that and use that external cue as a way to eat as opposed to paying attention to their hunger and fullness and energy levels. So I have a couple kind of follow-up questions. What if someone really doesn't notice their hunger and fullness cues?Or especially their hunger cues. What about the kid who just really doesn't notice them or experiences them in some way that they aren't able to identify? What would you recommend for them?Anna Mackay (10:59)That's a great question. again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. My thoughts on that, that is going to be a child and a teenager who is going to need a little bit more structure. I think they just will need a bit more filling in the gaps by whether it's a parent or their dietitian. So a few more reminders, bit of encouragement. You're going off to practice. I know you're not very hungry.We talked about having these things that we know that sit well in your stomach. Can you make sure you've had one? Mm-hmm. know, and...It can be, you know, and also I think these don't have to be huge snacks. can be a relatively small smoothie, a piece of fruit, gentle reminders without pressure on how proper nutrition can enhance their performance, boost their energy levels, framing it as a way to help them succeed. So you're not sort of coming down on them.Saying, you you need this, this and this, or it's going to be a disaster. It's more just framing it as a way. This will help you succeed. And then for really selective eaters,Maybe you can answer that Elizabeth. I find that really, really tricky. My only piece of advice would be, think you have to keep pressure out of it, What would you say for people who...Elizabeth (12:21)So are we talking extremely picky eating or sort of your typical picky eater who's a teenager who's always been kind of picky?Anna Mackay (12:27)I would say the latter.Elizabeth (12:34)Okay, so in those situations, I would stick with what they're willing to eat and just really focus on that and not pressure them to eat. As you said, keep the pressure out of it. And you know, if the team's interested in increasing what they're eating, great. If they're not, I would let them be the driver on that. Because as teenagers get older, part of what they do is experiment, right? As part of their growth and development, and they're over time going to start to add in some new foods just on their own, right? They're going to see what their friends have and say, ⁓ maybe I'll try that. Right? And so that's how I think of it. There are going to be some kids who need a little bit more structure. But I think less is more. Less is more as long as they're meeting their nutritional needs. And if you're worried if they really don't eat many fruits and vegetables, you can always give them a a multivitamin. And I don't that's not always the answer. It's always you know, we always want kids to and adults to get what they need from the foods that they eat. But if you're worried they're not, it's not going to harm them to take a multivitamin, which can ease your mind, right? And ensure that they're— it's a little safety net.Anna Mackay (13:57)What if fruits and vegetables aren't the problem? If their selectiveness is more around protein? I think it's tricky for plant-based diets, for vegetarians.Elizabeth (14:15)Yes, that's really tough. That's really tough. I think if the kid is really picky and let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat beans, right? Or let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat nuts, right? those, or eggs, yes, yeah. Those are some major sources of protein. Yes, you can.Anna Mackay (14:30)Eggs.Elizabeth (14:37)Look to tofu to get some of those, some of that protein. And I think for teen athletes using protein powder can, I mean, it can really upset their stomachs. I say if a teen is really picky and they're plant-based, I would encourage them to think of themselves as a flexitarian and think about some non-plant-based, some animal products that they've eaten in the past that they might be willing to reintroduce so that they can get what they need. That is a tricky one.Taking your child to a dietitian can help because you can have someone outside of the family help with that. And I always encourage a dietitian with experience in eating disorder prevention, really well versed in it and a weight inclusive non-diet dietitian for that, which I know you would say the same thing. I that.Anna Mackay (15:36)I wholeheartedly agree. And I think that's where parents I've spoken to often say, well, how do you know when it's time to call a professional? And I think that is a juncture right there. You outlined it where if you find yourself as a parent trying to convince your child and you're getting a bit exasperated, you're feeling you're at a dead end.That's a great time to call a dietitian because they will, if it's a good fit particularly, and your kid may resist the idea, but be lighthearted about it. See, you know, just pitch it as, let's see how it goes. We're going to, this is all a part of supporting your, your wellbeing as an athlete. The dietitian should be able to make some inroads.And it might take a little bit of time, but it's better than you as the parent having to switch to pressuring.Elizabeth (16:31)Right. And then the teen who's working on becoming independent is very likely to push back. And so, yes, it may be hard to make any, to make any progress there. Yeah, that was a really good, that was a really good question, Anna. A good point to bring up. I'm curious also, and you kind of, we kind of touched on this with when I asked about kids who aren't entirely sure of their hunger cues, what about say a teen runner, well, it can be any athlete, but a teen athlete who wakes up in the morning and says, yeah, I don't want breakfast. I'm not hungry for, I don't want to eat breakfast. Or a teen athlete whose schedule is really packed and they're going right from class immediately to their practice, which we see so often because their schedules are so packed. Those are two questions again. I love to ask more than one question at once.Anna Mackay (17:26)So think the dietitian's answer is, and again, you chime in here if you've got something to add. Is that we want these kids having breakfast, lunch and dinner and some snacks. That is the way that we are going to ensure without a doubt that they're having an adequate amount of food.And that they're consistently getting it. Because as soon as you skip a meal, you then are going to have to make up for all the nutrients and calories in the next meal. And that is going to be for most teenagers, that's gonna be really hard. It's just gonna be hard. It's near impossible. Their tummies are still, you know, they're just not gonna be able to accommodate that amount, that volume.And if it becomes a habit, it can easily snowball into where then the tummy starts shrinking and then they really can't manage that amount of food. And then you're in the cycle of not being able to fuel adequately. So again, this may be where chatting with a dietitian for a few sessions, if they're really resisting breakfast could be helpful.Maybe sussing out why are they, it purely because they are so overwhelmed with their schedule and they're just a bit disorganized or whatever and it's just really hard in that way. In that scenario, I think you as the parent need to step in. And as they're running out the door, I've thrown, there's a protein bar, a banana and an overnight oats. You'll find it in your bag. And that's, that's completely fine.And a lot of teens will respond well to that and they'll have it and that's great. But if you feel like your teen is skipping it for another reason, then again, that's where I think the dietitian needs to come in.Elizabeth (19:14)One thing I was gonna say about breakfast, if a team athlete doesn't wanna eat breakfast, one thing you could do is, sit down, well, you don't have to sit down with them, but just kind of casually. Right? It's always better. It's a little more casual. What are some things that would work well for you for just an out the door breakfast? Right? Is it if I make you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? We eat that on the way to the bus or in the car on the way to school. And like you said, just grab and go foods, put them in their backpack.I think the more you can get the teens buy in and get their suggestions, the more likely they may be to eat those foods. It's tough. It's tough. And the other thing parents can do is if you notice your teens not having breakfast or they're just not, you know, they're saying, I'm not hungry, I'm not eating it. You might ask them how their practice is going, how they're feeling. Just say, how are you feeling throughout the day? I know you don't feel like eating breakfast. Let's work towards that. In the meantime, if you can pay attention just to how you feel, whether or not you're able to focus in class, what's your energy level like? So a parent could ask those questions if they feel like their teen would be receptive to it. Then onto my second question.My second part two of that two part question. What about a kid who doesn't have time in between class, the end of class and changing into their practice clothes and getting to practice?Anna Mackay (20:51)So being short on time just means you have to be prepared, right? There has to be, we are lucky that there are about eight zillion different bars on the market. Most of them are fine. wouldn't even, as a dietitian, I wouldn't even be like, well, this one's better than that one. I think you just need to find one you like.Elizabeth (21:02)Yes. And it has enough carbs in it.Anna Mackay (21:14)Fair point. So some of them are a little silly and they've, you know, they're very diety, maybe stay away from those ones, but find one you like, find one that your stomach agrees with, that's easy for you to digest and chuck that down. Right. You know, it's, it's easy to buy them in cases too. And they're, they are, they really do serve a purpose.Anna Mackay (21:41)Don't let anyone try and tell you that they're rubbish or it's junk food, because it's not. really serve a practical purpose, I think.Elizabeth (21:49)Agree. I agree. think they, like many foods, get a bad rap and diet culture or wellness culture kind of told us all that we shouldn't be having those bars. Yes, if someone's eating it instead of having a candy bar when they're really hungry for a candy bar, that's a whole different podcast episode.Anna Mackay (22:08)Yeah, and it's not dinner.Elizabeth (22:09)Right, exactly. It's a snack to get them through. So now my next question is when practice is over, you know, let's say they've got, I don't know, two hours before they are home and have dinner.Anna Mackay (22:22)I think my answer's the same. And what they might find is that the pre-practice, a bar is what feels best on the stomach and gives them enough to get through the practice and then after practice, maybe it's an electrolyte drink and half a peanut butter sandwich. So it would just be a little trial and error.Elizabeth (22:43)Yeah, yeah, I was just going to ask about the sports drinks because they also get, you know, there's a lot of, are they okay for kids to have? Should teens be having, teen athletes be having them? And I think they do, they serve a purpose, right? They can be so helpful in these situations.Anna Mackay (23:00)Water is the priority, but sports drinks with electrolytes are helpful. They just are, especially if you have long practices, 45 minutes or longer, and if you're a heavy sweater or you're working out, and know, it's quite hot here on the East Coast of the US at the moment. yes, it is. Even if you went out running for 35 minutes.You would probably be sweating profusely. A little bit of electrolytes and a drink could be really helpful in that scenario.Elizabeth (23:31)Yeah, yeah, for sure. So.Anna Mackay (23:34)Also, I think those electrolyte drinks, again, there's a zillion on the market now. Don't feel like you have to buy the ones with zero sugar in them. We just from a pure science point of view, and the sugar will be converted immediately to glucose, which will give you energy. We don't need to be scared of that. It'll assist in performance and it'll help you recover.Elizabeth (23:55)Yeah, such a good point. Such an important point. I want to ask one question that I thought of while we were talking. What about sweets and chips and foods like that? Foods like those that often, you know, we hear messages all the time that we want to be avoiding foods like that.Anna Mackay (24:14)They have a place, ice cream, chips, all the things. And look, if you are sprinting out the door and all of a sudden, I mean, we've all been here, my gosh, I forgot to grab the X, Y, O, Z that I was gonna grab, but it's all the way back in that part of the kitchen and I'm really in a rush and the jar of gummy bears is by the door. That is better than nothing, honestly. All these foods have a place. I would probably not recommend if a kid wants ice cream and chocolate covered pretzels for dinner and that's what they're having every night. I mean, that's a bit of a silly example, but you know, those foods definitely have a place and should not be demonized because demonizing them will always make them the forbidden fruit.And then they want them more. it also is just, creates, that goes back to when we were talking right at the beginning about having a flexible, healthy relationship with food. We want that to be with all foods, not just the foods that we think are the most nutritious foods.Elizabeth (25:14)Exactly. Exactly. And as I always say, all those foods like ice cream, for example, it's got fat, carbohydrate, protein, vitamin D, calcium, right? Has nutrients that our bodies need. Yeah. And nutrients that a teen athlete will need.Anna Mackay (25:32)Totally. think about a 16 year old girl or boy who are on the cross country team and they are running miles and miles and miles. Let's say they're already, those sports tend to attract quite lean builds. Two scoops of ice cream for a kid like that is fantastic. That's a great addition to their day in addition to their other meals.Mm-hmm not ever in place of in addition toElizabeth (26:01)Right. Well, I'm glad we touched on that.What about, I mean, I know what, I think I know what you're gonna, well, of course I know what you're gonna say. What advice do you have for parents to support teen athletes in getting enough on travel days and tournament days, right? I think of volleyball players, one of my younger, my older daughter played travel volleyball for a little, a short time. And wow, those tournament days. mean, yes, yeah.Anna Mackay (26:27)Hours and hours.Yeah, I mean, this is the packing, the planning and packing, right? And so I'll keep this answer short. Two pieces of advice. One is bring more than you think you'll need. And two is stick with those familiar, easily digestible foods. Don't go and try something brand new on a tournament day. I would say, yeah, stick with what you know.Elizabeth (26:40)Yes, great. And I would add that I want to add sometimes on social media, you'll see posts of the bento style lunch boxes, and people packing those that's not going to hold enough food for a teen athlete. It's not doesn't they don't hold enough for a teen. And they're definitely not going to hold enough for a teen athlete. And so you may need to pack two bento boxes or lunchbox with quite a few sides. So I think, yeah, that that to me is a very important piece of information because people do use those a lot, it seems, which is fine. There just has to be something added to them. Added to what's in the Bento style lunchbox. So again, it sounds like so much of this is planning and preparation. modeling by the parents.Anna Mackay (27:48)Yeah.Elizabeth (27:51)Encouraging the kids to really tune in to what they need, what their bodies, the signals that their bodies are telling them, as opposed to using external cues like watches and other kind of tracking devices.Anna Mackay (28:04)and TikTok.Elizabeth (28:05)Right, and TikTok, yes. my gosh, did I say that already? Yes, I did. The influence of the social media messages that these kids see. And YouTube, too, is a place that teens get a lot, teen athletes and teens get a lot of information that's harmful. Yeah. And so the parents, the teens, and the coaches are all up against that, for sure.So speaking of negative or harmful messages that kids, that teen athletes are seeing, what are some red flags that a teen may not be getting enough to eat to support their growth and activity levels? And even if it's framed as they're doing something, even if it's framed as healthy or performance-based.Anna Mackay (28:47)Well, so there's going to be some sort of symptoms. And then I'll also mention that someone can be under fueled and still gain weight or look sort of quote unquote normal. So I'll mention sort of some symptoms. So it'd be fatigue, physical weakness, decreased performance in their sport.Being moody, irritable, for girls would be a delayed or absent menstrual cycle, brittle nails, hair loss, poor concentration, slipping in school or academic slipping, socially withdrawing or showing a lack of interest in activities, being more susceptible to injury or illness, andYeah, okay, so sure, noticeable weight loss, certainly, but that's not always going to be a sign, it just can be. So I think that's a really important point to be aware that if all some of those other symptoms are present, but you're kind of going, but you know, they're not, they don't look different. I would still be alarmed.Elizabeth (29:53)Right, right. What's one thing that you wish every teen athlete and their parents and coaches understood about fueling teen athletes?Anna Mackay (30:03)When it comes to food, something is always, always better than nothing. Skipping out on a snack or worse, skipping an entire meal, it's going to sabotage your performance every single time. then, yeah, so food should come first.So, and also I'll just add that supplements, I think they take up like an entire supermarket aisle now.It is wild to me how much is on those shelves and much of it, if not all of it, the FDA doesn't regulate most of it. So it can be, there can literally be anything in these containers from ingredients that are listed, but they're not actually those ingredients. So I think be really, really, really wary of supplements, know, the creatines and the muscle builders and all that kind of stuff. It could be harmful ingredients in there.Elizabeth (30:59)Definitely. And kids, again, this stuff, they see it all over social media. All over.Anna Mackay (31:05)They do. another sign to be, think, to be aware of should be a red flag would be unusual stomach upset, cramping, you know, out of the ordinary diarrhea, know, gastro stuff that's kind of come out of out of the blue.Elizabeth (31:22)So last question as we wrap up here. And this kind of is an add-on to what we were talking about just a few minutes ago, where can parents and teens find supportive non-diet information on fueling teen athletes?Anna Mackay (31:40)So I will you can I would love to hear what you would recommend. I have to bashing social media. I have to say there are some very good social media accounts. There are. So there is a woman who is the assistant director for athletics at Purdue.And she, so she's a dietitian and she's been there for a long time and her social media account is really good, but it's very directed towards quite elite athletes. So just, I'll just put that out there, but her account's great. It's very, it's not diety and it's very, I think it's, it's bang on. This podcast?Elizabeth (32:22)They can listen to that.Anna Mackay (32:23)Side Up Nutrition, yeah. And you can look in in the Sunny Side Up library. There's all sorts of stuff in there at the website. And then I would say if you're the parent of a teen athlete and you've got lots of questions and you're finding social media, not really answering the questions.Elizabeth (32:41)Mm-hmm.Anna Mackay (32:42)Make an appointment with a dietitian. You've literally got nothing to lose and you might find that it a few sessions or just getting some more information is really helpful.Elizabeth (32:52)Yes, yes. And I think it's important to, for parents to, to remember to work with a non-diet weight inclusive registered dietitian. and if you're listening to this and you would like names of, of dietitians who could see your teen athlete, feel free to send us an email at hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com. And we can give you the names of some people. I know Anna has someone on her in her practice, actually, who worked for UNC University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, athletic department for many years. And so she's very, very, yeah, she's very knowledgeable. And I don't have a specific recommendation. There used to be a really wonderful, well you could still look at her social, look through her social media, the soccer nutritionist I think she was called.Anna Mackay (33:51)I know who you're talking about. can't think of the name off the top of my head, but I know who you're referring to.Elizabeth (33:56)Yes, I really liked her advice. I think also if a parent is or if a teen or a parent's looking for information, I do think any non-diet social media, most of it can be helpful, right? Because teens need to be, teen athletes need to be eating enough. Anything else? Any others that you can think of that you would recommend? Any books? Opal? Was it Opal podcast? I'll have to look that one up.Anna Mackay (34:27)So that treatment center out on the West Coast, they, don't know if they're still doing the podcast, but that's an excellent.Elizabeth (34:35)They have some great episodes.Anna Mackay (34:37)Yeah, in Australia, Shane Jeffries up in Brisbane, does performance nutrition. He's a great dietitian, runs a practice in Brisbane. And then there is also a great, and I'm sure the US has this too, but I'm trying to think of, it's called Oz Dances. It's AUS Dances. And this is a woman who, she is not a dietitian, but she, has worked with ballerinas for a really long time. And she does social, she has a social media site that talks a lot about warning signs for ballerinas, specifically for dancers. And her site has information for, that can then direct people, you know, they need a dietitian or another person in the dance world in Australia.Elizabeth (35:20)And we interviewed somebody who is a ballerina and dietitian. And all of a sudden, I'm embarrassed to say I cannot remember her name, but we will link.Anna Mackay (35:32)Is she in New York?Elizabeth (35:33)Yes. Yes. So we'll link to her podcast episode. And then there's Leslie Schilling, who's a dietitian who does a lot of sports nutrition and does sports nutrition training for dietitians. And she's wonderful. So we'll link to all these, all these resources in the show notes. All right, Anna, this has been awesome.Anna Mackay (35:51)This has been so fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com

EP807: After a long day of confusion and fear, Bryan & Krissy get back to what they know best...ADHD comedy and Mountain Monsters! Take a break with the TCB team as we review the kidnapped MM's and the killer of the Stonish Giant. TCB Clips: Ice Cream Man! Watch EP #829 on YouTube! Text us or leave us a voicemail: +1 (212) 433-3TCB FOLLOW US: Instagram:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@thecommercialbreak⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/thecommercialbreak⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@tcbpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.tcbpodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CREDITS: Hosts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bryan Green⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ &⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Krissy Hoadley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer: Bryan Green Producer: Astrid B. Green Voice Over: Rachel McGrath TCBits & TCB Tunes, Logo, Name and Audio Assets: Owned, Written, Voiced and Produced by Bryan Green. Rights Reserved To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this introductory episode to their new series on the Parables of Jesus, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound theological significance of Christ's parables. Far from being mere teaching tools to simplify complex ideas, parables serve a dual purpose in God's redemptive plan: revealing spiritual truth to those with "ears to hear" while concealing these same truths from those without spiritual illumination. This episode lays the groundwork for understanding how parables function as divine teaching devices that embody core Reformed doctrines like election and illumination. As the hosts prepare to journey through all the parables in the Gospels, they invite listeners to consider the blessing of being granted spiritual understanding and the privilege of receiving the "secrets of the kingdom" through Christ's distinctive teaching method. Key Takeaways Parables are more than illustrations—they are comparisons that reveal kingdom truths to those with spiritual ears to hear while concealing truth from those without spiritual illumination. Jesus intentionally taught in parables not to simplify his teaching but partly to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about those who hear but do not understand, confirming the spiritual condition of his hearers. The ability to understand parables is itself evidence of God's sovereign grace and election, as Jesus states in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." Parables vary in form and function—some are clearly allegorical while others make a single point, requiring each to be approached on its own terms. Proper interpretation requires context—understanding both the original audience and the question or situation that prompted Jesus to use a particular parable. Parables function like Nathan's confrontation of David—they draw hearers in through narrative before revealing uncomfortable truths about themselves. Studying parables requires spiritual humility—recognizing that our understanding comes not from intellectual capacity but from the Spirit's illumination. Understanding Parables as Revelation, Not Just Illustration The hosts emphasize that parables are fundamentally different from mere illustrations or fables. While modern readers often assume Jesus used parables to simplify complex spiritual truths, the opposite is frequently true. As Tony explains, "A parable fundamentally is a comparison between two things... The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside." This distinction is crucial because it changes how we approach interpretation. Rather than breaking down each element as an allegorical component, we should first understand what reality Jesus is comparing the parable to. The parables function as a form of divine revelation—showing us kingdom realities through narrative comparison, but only those with spiritual insight can truly grasp their meaning. This is why Jesus quotes Isaiah and explains that he speaks in parables partly because "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). The Doctrine of Election Embedded in Parabolic Teaching Perhaps the most profound insight from this episode is how the very form of Jesus' teaching—not just its content—embodies the doctrine of election. Jesse notes that "every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election," because they reveal spiritual truth to some while concealing it from others. This isn't arbitrary but reflects spiritual realities. The hosts connect this to Jesus' words in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." This blessing comes not from intellectual capacity or moral superiority but from God's sovereign grace. Tony describes this as "the blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." The parables thus become a "microcosm" of Reformed doctrines like election, regeneration, and illumination. When believers understand Jesus' parables, they're experiencing the practical outworking of these doctrines in real time. Memorable Quotes "The parables are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit." - Tony Arsenal "Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him... And so this is like, I love the way that he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense." - Jesse Schwamb "But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. There's a blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." - Tony Arsenal About the Hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb are the regular hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, where they explore Reformed theology and its application to Christian living. With a conversational style that balances depth and accessibility, they seek to make complex theological concepts understandable without sacrificing nuance or biblical fidelity. Transcript [00:00:45] Introduction and New Series Announcement [00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 460 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. New series Time, new series. Time for the next seven years that, that's probably correct. It's gonna be a long one. New beginnings are so great, aren't they? And it is. [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: We've been hopefully this, well, it's definitely gonna live up to all the hype that we've been presenting about this. It's gonna be good. Everybody's gonna love it. And like I said, it's a topic we haven't done before. It's certainly not in this format. [00:01:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, just, um, as a side note, if you are a listener, which you must be, if you're hearing this, uh, this is a great time to introduce someone to the podcast. [00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: True. Uh, one, because this series is gonna be lit as the kids say, and, uh, it's a new series, so you don't have to have any background. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of the show or of who these two weird guys are to jump in and we're gonna. [00:01:53] Tony Arsenal: Talk about the Bible, which is amazing and awesome. And who doesn't love to talk about the Bible. [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's correct. That's what makes these so good. That's how I know, and I could say confidently that this is gonna be all the hype and more. All right, so before we get to affirmations and denials, all the good ProGo, that's part and parcel of our normal episode content. [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Do you want to tell everybody what we're gonna be talking about? [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:02:17] Introducing the Parables Series [00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna work our way through, and this is why I say it's gonna take seven years. We are gonna work our way through all of the parables. Parables, [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: the [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: gospels and just so, um, the Gospel of John doesn't feel left out. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna talk through some of the I am statements and some of that stuff when we get to John. 'cause John doesn't have a lot of parables. Uh, so we're gonna spend time in the synoptic gospels. We're gonna just walk through the parables one by one. We're taking an episode, sometimes maybe two, sometimes 10, depending on how long the parable is and how deep we get into it. [00:02:47] Tony Arsenal: We're just gonna work our way through. We're gonna take our time. We're gonna enjoy it. So again, this is a great time to start. It's kinda the ground floor on this and you thing. This could really be its own podcast all by itself, right? Uh, so invite a friend, invite some whole bunch of friends. Start a Sunday school class listening to this. [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: No, don't do that. But people have done that before. But, uh, grab your bibles, get a decent commentary to help prep for the next episode, and, uh, let's, let's do it. I'm super excited. [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: When I say para, you say Abel Para, is that how it works? Para? Yeah. I don't know. You can't really divide it. Pairable. If you jam it together, yes. [00:03:24] Jesse Schwamb: You get some of that. You can say, when I say pair, you say Abel p [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: Abel. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: And you can expect a lot more of that in this series. But before we get into all this good juicy stuff about parables, and by the way, this is like an introductory episode, that doesn't mean that you can just skip it, doesn't mean it's not gonna be good. We gotta set some things up. We wanna talk about parables general generally, but before we have that good general conversation, let's get into our own tradition, which is either affirming with something or denying against something. [00:03:54] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so, Tony, what do you got for all of us? [00:03:58] Tony Arsenal: Mine is kind of a, an ecclesial, ecclesiastical denial. Mm-hmm. Um, this is sort of niche, but I feel like our audience may have heard about it. And there's this dust up that I, I noticed online, uh, really just this last week. Um, it's kind of a specific thing. There is a church, uh, I'm not sure where the church is. [00:04:18] Tony Arsenal: It's a PCA church, I believe it's called Mosaic. The pastor of the church, the teaching elder, one of the teaching elders just announced that he was, uh, leaving his ministry to, uh, join the Roman Catholic Church, which, yes, there's its own denial built into that. We are good old Protestant reformed folks, and I personally would, would stick with the original Westminster on the, the Pope being antichrist. [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: But, um, that's not the denial. The denial is that in this particular church. For some unknown reason. Uh, the pastor who has now since a announced that he was leaving to, uh, to convert to Roman Catholicism, continued to preach the sermon and then administered the Lord's supper, even though he in the eyes, I think of most. [00:05:08] Tony Arsenal: Reformed folk and certainly historically in the eyes of the reformed position was basically apostate, uh, right in front of the congregation's eyes. Now, I don't know that I would necessarily put it that strongly. I think there are plenty of genuine born again Christians who find themselves in, in the Roman Catholic, uh, church. [00:05:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but to allow someone who is one resigning the ministry right in front of your eyes. Um, and then resigning to basically leave for another tradition that, that the PCA would not recognize, would not share ecclesiastical, uh, credentials with or accept their ordination or any of those things. Um, to then just allow him to admit, you know, to administer the Lord's Supper, I think is just a drastic miscarriage of, uh, ecclesiastical justice. [00:05:54] Tony Arsenal: I dunno if that's the right word. So I'm just denying this like. It shows that on a couple things like this, this. Church this session, who obviously knew this was coming. Um, this session does either, does not take seriously the differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology, particularly reformed theology, or they don't take seriously the, the gravity of the Lord's supper and who should and shouldn't be administering it. [00:06:22] Tony Arsenal: They can't take both of those things seriously and have a fully or biblical position on it. So there's a good opportunity for us to think through our ecclesiology, to think through our sacrament and how this applies. It just really doesn't sit well and it's not sitting well with a lot of people online, obviously. [00:06:37] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I'm sure there'll be all sorts of, like letters of concern sent to presbytery and, and all that stuff, and, and it'll all shake out in the wash eventually, but just, it just wasn't good. Just doesn't sit right. [00:06:48] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me of all the denominations. I'm not saying this pejoratively. I just think it is kind of interesting and funny to me that the Presbyterians love a letter writing campaign. [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Like that's kind of the jam, the love, a good letter writing campaign. [00:07:00] Tony Arsenal: It's true, although it's, it's actually functional in Presbyterianism because That's right. That's how you voice your concern. It's not a, not a, a rage letter into the void. It actually goes somewhere and gets recorded and has to be addressed at presbytery if you have standing. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: So there's, there's a good reason to do that, and I'm sure that that will be done. I'm sure there are many. Probably ministers in the PCA who are aware of this, who are either actually considering filing charges or um, or writing such letters of complaints. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in the PCA to, to adjudicate and resolve and to investigate these kinds of things. [00:07:37] Jesse Schwamb: And I'd like to, if you're, if you're a true Presbyterian and, and in this instance, I'm not making light of this instance, but this instance are others, you. Feel compelled by a strong conviction to write such a letter that really you should do it with a quill, an ink. Like that's the ultimate way. I think handwritten with like a nice fountain pen. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: There's not, yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, that is a weighty letter right there. Like it's cut to Paul being like, I write this postscript in my own hand with these big letters. Yeah, it's like, you know, some original Presbyterian letter writing right there. [00:08:07] Tony Arsenal: And then you gotta seal it with wax with your signe ring. [00:08:10] Tony Arsenal: So, and send it by a carrier, by a messenger series of me messengers. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Think if you receive any letter in the mail, handwritten to you. Like for real, somebody painstakingly going through in script like spencerian script, you know, if you're using English characters writing up and then sealing that bad boy with wax, you're gonna be like, this is important. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, this, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, you're gonna be like, look at this incredible, weighty document I've received. [00:08:36] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's very true. I love it. Well, that's all I have to say about that to channel a little Forrest Gump there. Uh, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also going to deny against, so this denial is like classic. [00:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: It's routine, but I got a different spin on it this time, so I'm denying against. The full corruption of sin, how it appears everywhere, how even unbelievers speak of it, almost unwittingly, but very commonly with great acceptance. And the particularity of this denial comes in the form of allergies, which you and I are talking about a lot of times. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: But I was just thinking about this week because I had to do some allergy testing, which is a, a super fun experience. But it just got me think again, like very plainly about what allergies are. And how an allergy occurs when your immune system, like the part of your body responsible for protecting your body that God has made when your immune system mistakes like a non-harmful substance like pollen or a food or some kind of animal dander for a threat, and then reacts by producing these antibodies like primarily the immunoglobulin E. [00:09:36] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what strikes me as so funny about this in a, in a way that we must laugh. Because of our, our parents, our first parents who made a horrible decision and we like them, would make the same decision every day and twice in the Lord's day. And that is that this seems like, of course, such a clear sign of the corruption of sin impounded in our created order because it seems a really distasteful and suboptimal for human beings to have this kind of response to pollen. [00:10:03] Jesse Schwamb: When they were intended to work and care in a garden. So obviously I think we can say, Hey, like the fact that allergies exist and that it's your body making a mistake. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's like the ultimate, like cellular level of the ubiquity of sin. And so as I was speaking with my doctor and going through the, the testing, it's just so funny how like we all talk about this. [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, yeah, it's, it's a really over-indexed reaction. It doesn't make any sense. It's not the way the world is supposed to be, but nobody's saying how is the world supposed to be? Do you know what I mean? Like, but we just take it for granted that that kind of inflammation that comes from like your dog or like these particles in the air of plants, just trying to do a plant stew and reproduce and pollinate that, that could cause like really dramatic and debilitating. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: Responses is just exceptional to me, and I think it's exceptional and exceptional to all of us because at some deep level we recognize that, as Paul says, like the earth, the entire world is groaning. It's groaning for that eschatological release and redemption that can only come from Christ. And our runny noses in our hay fever all prove that to some degree. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So denying against allergies, but denying against as well that ubiquity of corruption and sin in our world. [00:11:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just have this image in my head of Adam and Eve, you know, they're expelled outta the garden and they, they're working the ground. And then Adam sneezes. Yes. And Eve is like, did your head just explode? [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: And he's like, I don't know. That would've been a, probably a pretty terrifying experience actually. [00:11:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. So imagine like you and I have talked about this before, because you have young children, adorable. Young children, and we've talked about like the first of everything, like when you're a child, you get sick for the first time, or you get the flu or you vomit for the first time. [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: Like you have no idea what's going on in your body, but imagine that. But being an adult. [00:11:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, where you can process what's going on, but don't have a framework for it. [00:11:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. So like [00:11:54] Tony Arsenal: that's like, that's like my worst nightmare I think. [00:11:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like, to your point, 'cause there, there are a lot of experiences you have as an adults, even health wise that are still super strange and weird. [00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: But [00:12:02] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:12:02] Jesse Schwamb: you have some rubric for them, but that's kind of exactly what I was thinking. What if this toiling over your labor is partly because it's horrible now because you have itchy, watery eyes or you get hives. Yeah. And before you were like, I could just lay in the grass and be totally fine. And now I can't even walk by ragweed without getting a headache or having some kind of weird fatigue. [00:12:23] Jesse Schwamb: Like I have to believe that that was, that part of this transition was all of these things. Like, now your body's gonna overreact to stuff where I, I, God put us in a place where that wouldn't be the case at all. [00:12:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the first. Time that Adam was like sore or like hurt himself. [00:12:42] Tony Arsenal: True. Like the, just the, just the terror and fear that must have come with it. And sin is serious stuff. Like it's serious effects and sad, sad, sad stuff. But yeah, allergies are the worst. I, uh, I suffered really badly with, uh, seasonal allergies. When I was a a kid I had to do allergy shots and everything and it's makes no sense. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: There's no rhyme or reason to it, and your allergies change. So like you could be going your whole life, being able to eat strawberries and then all of a sudden you can't. Right? And it's, and you don't know until it happens. So [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: what's up with that? [00:13:15] Tony Arsenal: No good. [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: What's up with that? So again, imagine that little experience is a microcosmic example of what happens to Adam and Eve. [00:13:24] Jesse Schwamb: You know, like all these things change. Like you're, you're right. Suddenly your body isn't the same. It's not just because you're growing older, but because guess what? Sins everywhere. And guess what, where sin is, even in the midst of who you are as physically constructed and the environment in which you live, all, all totally change. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: So that, that's enough of my rants on allergies. I know the, I know the loved ones out there hear me. It's also remarkable to me that almost everybody has an allergy of some kind. It's very, it's very rare if you don't have any allergies whatsoever. And probably those times when you think you're sick and you don't have allergies could be that you actually have them. [00:13:57] Jesse Schwamb: So it's just wild. Wild. [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Agreed. Agreed. [00:14:03] Theological Discussion on Parables [00:14:03] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, without further ado, I'm not, I, maybe we should have further ado, but let's get into it. Let's talk about some parable stuff. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's do it again. When I say pair, you say able pair. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Able. [00:14:20] Jesse Schwamb: When I say [00:14:21] Tony Arsenal: para you say bowl. [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I was trying to go with before. [00:14:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's a little bit more, yeah, but you gotta like cross over like we both gotta say like that middle syllable kind of. Otherwise it's, it sounds like I'm just saying bowl. And [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: yeah, there's no good way to chant that. Yeah, we're work. This is why Jesse and I are not cheerleaders. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: We're, we're work shopping everybody. [00:14:40] Jesse Schwamb: But I agree with you. Enough of us talking about affirmations, the denials in this case, the double double denial. Let's talk about parables. So the beauty of this whole series is there's gonna be so much great stuff to talk about, and I think this is a decent topic for us to cover because. Really, if you think about it, the parables of Jesus have captivated people for the entirety of the scriptures. [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: As long, as long as they were recorded and have been read and processed and studied together. And, uh, you know, there's stuff I'm sure that we will just gloss over. We don't need to get into in terms of like, is it pure allegory? Is it always allegory? Is it, there's lots of interpretation here. I think this is gonna be our way of processing together and moving through some of these and speaking them out and trying to learn principally. [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Predominantly what they're teaching us. But I say all that because characters like the prodigal son, like Good Samaritan, Pharisees, and tax collector, those actually have become well known even outside the church. [00:15:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: then sometimes inside the church there's over familiarity with all of these, and that leads to its own kind of misunderstanding. [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: So, and I think as well. I'm hoping that myself, you and our listeners will be able to hear them in a new way, and maybe if we can try to do this without again, being parabolic, is that we can kind of recreate some of the trauma. In these stories. 'cause Jesus is, is pressing upon very certain things and there's certainly a lot of trauma that his original audiences would've taken away from what he was saying here. [00:16:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Even just starting with what is a parable and why is Jesus telling them? So I presume that's actually the best place for us to begin is what's the deal with the parables and why is this? Is this Jesus preferred way of teaching about the kingdom of God. [00:16:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, you know, it bears saying too that like not all the parables are alike. [00:16:35] Tony Arsenal: Like true. We can't, this is why I'm excited about this series. You know, it's always good to talk through the bible and, and or to talk through systematic theology, but what really excites me is when we do a series like this, kind of like the Scott's Confession series, like it gives us a reason. To think through a lot of different disciplines and flex like exercise and stretch and flex a lot of different kinds of intellectual muscles. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: So there's gonna be some exegetical work we have to do. There's gonna be some hermeneutical work we're gonna have to do, probably have to do some historical work about how the parables have been interpreted in different ways. Yes, and and I think, so, I think it's important to say like, not every parable is exactly the same. [00:17:14] Tony Arsenal: And this is where I think like when you read, sometimes you read books about the, the parables of Christ. Like you, you'll hear one guy say. Well, a parable is not an allegory. Then you'll hear another guy say like, well, parables might have allegorical elements to it. Right. Now if one guy say like, well, a parable has one main point, and you'll have another guy say like, well, no, actually, like parables can have multiple points and multiple shades of meaning. [00:17:37] Tony Arsenal: And I think the answer to why you have this variance in the commentaries is 'cause sometimes the parables are alleg. [00:17:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And [00:17:44] Tony Arsenal: sometimes they're not allegorical. Sometimes they have one main point. Sometimes there's multiple points. So I think it's important for us to just acknowledge like we're gonna have to come to each parable, um, on its own and on its own terms. [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: But there are some general principles that I think we can talk about what parables are. So parables in general are. Figurative stories or figurative accounts that are used to illustrate, I think primarily used to illustrate a single main point. And there may be some subpoints, but they, they're generally intended to, uh, to illustrate something by way of a, of a narrative, a fictional narrative that, uh, helps the reader. [00:18:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, or the hearer is just, it's also important that these were primarily heard, these are heard parables, so there are even times where the phrasing of the language is important in the parable. Um, they're helping the, the hearer to understand spiritual truth. And this is where I think it's it's key, is that this is not just. [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: When we're talking about the parables of Christ, right? There's people tell parables, there's all sorts of different teachers that have used parables. Um, I, I do parables on the show from time to time where I'll tell like a little made up story about a, you know, a situation. I'll say like, pretend, you know, let's imagine you have this guy and he's doing this thing that's a form of a parable when I'm using. [00:19:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm not, it's not like a makeup made up story. It's not asaps fables. We're not talking about like talking foxes and hens and stuff, but it's illustrating a point. But the parables of Christ are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit. [00:19:29] Tony Arsenal: And I just wanna read this. Uh, this is just God's providence, um, in action. I, um, I've fallen behind on my reading in The Daily Dad, which is a Ryan Holiday book. This was the reading that came up today, even though it's not the correct reading for the day. Uh, it's, it's for September 2nd. We're recording this on September, uh, sixth. [00:19:48] Tony Arsenal: Uh, and the title is, this is How You Teach Them. And the first line says, if the Bible has any indication, Jesus rarely seemed to come out and say what he meant. He preferred instead to employ parables and stories and little anecdotes that make you think. He tells stories of the servants and the talents. [00:20:03] Tony Arsenal: He tells stories of the prodigal son and the Good Samaritan. Turns out it's pretty effective to get a point across and make it stick. What what we're gonna learn. Actually that Jesus tells these stories in parables, in part to teach those who have spiritual ears to hear, but in part to mask the truth That's right. [00:20:24] Tony Arsenal: From those who don't have spiritual ears to hear, oh, online [00:20:26] Jesse Schwamb: holiday. [00:20:27] Tony Arsenal: So it's not as simple as like Jesus, using illustration to help make something complicated, clearer, right? Yes. But also, no. So I'm super excited to kind of get into this stuff and talk through it and to, to really dig into the parables themselves. [00:20:42] Tony Arsenal: It's just gonna be a really good exercise at sort of sitting at the feet of our master in his really, his preferred mode of teaching. Um, you know, other than the sermon on the Mount. There's not a lot of like long form, straightforward, didactic teaching like that most of Christ's teaching as recorded in the gospels, comes in the form of these parables in one way or another. [00:21:03] Tony Arsenal: Right. And that's pretty exciting to me. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And there's so many more parables I think, than we often understand there to be, or at least then that we see in like the headings are Bible, which of course have been put there by our own construction. So anytime you get that. Nice short, metaphorical narrative is really Jesus speaking in a kind of parable form, and I think you're right on. [00:21:25] Jesse Schwamb: For me, it's always highlighting some kind of aspect of the kingdom of God. And I'd say there is generally a hierarchy. There doesn't have to be like a single point, like you said. There could be other points around that. But if you get into this place where like everything has some kind of allegory representation, then the parable seems to die of the death of like a million paper cuts, right? [00:21:40] Jesse Schwamb: Because you're trying to figure out all the things and if you have to represent something, everything he says with some kind of. Heavy spiritual principle gets kind of weird very quickly. But in each of these, as you said, what's common in my understanding is it's presenting like a series of events involving like a small number of characters. [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: It is bite-sized and sometimes those are people or plants or even like inanimate objects. So like the, yeah, like you said, the breadth and scope of how Jesus uses the metaphor is brilliant teaching, and it's even more brilliant when you get to that level, like you're saying, where it's meant both to illuminate. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: To obfuscate. That is like, to me, the parable is a manifestation of election because it's clear that Jesus is using this. Those who have the ears to hear are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has unstopped, has opened the eyes, has illuminated the hearts and the mind to such a degree that can receive these, and that now these words are resonant. [00:22:32] Jesse Schwamb: So like what a blessing that we can understand them, that God has essentially. Use this parabolic teaching in such a way to bring forward his concept of election in the minds and the hearts of those who are his children. And it's kind of a way, this is kind of like the secret Christian handshake. It's the speakeasy of salvation. [00:22:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's coming into the fold because God has invited you in and given you. The knowledge and ability of which to really understand these things. And so most of these little characters seemed realistic and resonant in Jesus' world, and that's why sometimes we do need a little bit of studying and understanding the proper context for all those things. [00:23:12] Jesse Schwamb: I would say as well, like at least one element in those parables is a push. It's in, it's kind of taking it and hyping it up. It's pushing the boundaries of what's plausible, and so you'll find that all of this is made again to illuminate some principle of the kingdom of God. And we should probably go to the thing that you intimated, because when you read that quote from, from Ryan Holiday, I was like, yes, my man. [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Like he's on the right track. Right? There's something about what he's saying that is partially correct, but like you said, a lot of times people mistake the fact that, well, Jesus. Is using this language and these metaphors, these similes, he speaks in parables because they were the best way to get like these uneducated people to understand him. [00:23:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right? But it's actually the exact opposite. And we know this because of perhaps the most famous dialogue and expression and explanation of parables, which comes to us in Matthew 13, 10 through 17, where Jesus explains to his disciples exactly why he uses this mode of teaching. And what he says is. This is why I speak to them of parables because seeing they do not see and hearing, they do not hear they nor do they understand. [00:24:24] Jesse Schwamb: So, so that's perplexing. We should probably camp there for just a second and talk about that. Right, and, and like really unpack like, what is Jesus after here? Then if, like, before we get into like, what do all these things mean, it's almost like saying. We need to understand why they're even set before us and why these in some ways are like a kind of a small stumbling block to others, but then this great stone of appreciation and one to stand on for for others. [00:24:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think you know, before we, before we cover that, which I think is a good next spot. A parable is not just an illustration. Like I think that's where a lot of people go a little bit sideways, is they think that this is effectively, like it's a fable. It's like a made up story primarily to like illustrate a point right. [00:25:09] Tony Arsenal: Or an allegory where you know, you're taking individual components and they represent something else. A parable fundamentally is a, is a, a comparison between two things, right? The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside, and so the idea is like you're, you're taking. The reality that you're trying to articulate and you're setting up this parable next to it and you're comparing them to it. [00:25:33] Tony Arsenal: And so I like to use the word simile, like that's why Christ says like the kingdom of God is like this. Yes. It's not like I'm gonna explain the kingdom of God to you by using this made up story. Right on. It's I'm gonna compare the kingdom of God to this thing or this story that I'm having, and so we should be. [00:25:49] Tony Arsenal: Rather than trying to like find the principles of the parable, we should be looking at it and going, how does this parable reflect? Or how is this a, um, how is this an explanation? Not in the, like, I, I'm struggling to even explain this here. It's not that the cer, the parable is just illustrating a principle. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: It's that the kingdom of God is one thing and the parable reveals that same one thing by way of comparison. Yes. So like. Uh, we'll get into the specifics, obviously, but when the, when the, um, lawyer says, who is my neighbor? Well, it's not just like, well, let's look at the Good Samaritan. And the Good Samaritan represents this, and the Levite represents this, and the priest represents this. [00:26:32] Tony Arsenal: It's a good neighbor, is this thing. It's this story. Compared to whatever you have in your mind of what a good neighbor is. And we're gonna bounce those things up against each other, and that's gonna somehow show us what the, what the reality is. And that's why I think to get back to where we were, that's why I think sometimes the parables actually obscure the truth. [00:26:53] Tony Arsenal: Because if we're not comparing the parable to the reality of something, then we're gonna get the parable wrong. So if we think that, um, the Good Samaritan. Is a parable about social justice and we're, we're looking at it to try to understand how do we treat, you know, the, the poor people in Africa who don't have food or the war torn refugees, you know, coming out of Ukraine. [00:27:19] Tony Arsenal: If we're looking at it primarily as like, I need to learn to be a good neighbor to those who are destitute. Uh, we're not comparing it against what Jesus was comparing it against, right? So, so we have to understand, we have to start in a lot of cases with the question that the parable is a response to, which oftentimes the parable is a response to a question or it's a, it's a principle that's being, um, compare it against if we get that first step wrong, uh, or if we start with our own presuppositions, which is why. [00:27:50] Tony Arsenal: Partially why I think Christ is saying like, the only those who have ears to hear. Like if you don't have a spiritual presupposition, I, I mean that, that might not be the right word, but like if you're not starting from the place of spiritual illumination, not in the weird gnostic sense, but in the, the. [00:28:07] Tony Arsenal: Genuinely Christian illumination of the Holy Spirit and inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. If you're not starting from that perspective, you almost can't get the parables right. So that's why we see like the opponents of Christ in the Bible, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, constantly. They're constantly confused and they're getting it wrong. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: And, and even sometimes the disciples, they have to go and ask sometimes too, what is this parable? Wow, that's right. What is, what does this mean? So it's never as simple as, as what's directly on the surface, but it's also not usually as complicated as we would make it be if we were trying to over-interpret the parable, which I think is another risk. [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: That's the genius, isn't it? Is that I I like what you're saying. It's that spiritual predisposition that allows us to receive the word and, and when we receive that word, it is a simple word. It's not as if like, we have to elevate ourselves in place of this high learning or education or philosophizing, and that's the beauty of it. [00:29:03] Jesse Schwamb: So it is, again, God's setting apart for himself A, a people a teaching. So. But I think this is, it is a little bit perplexing at first, like that statement from Jesus because it's a bit like somebody coming to you, like your place of work or anywhere else in your family life and asking you explicitly for instruction and, and then you saying something like, listen, I, I'm gonna show you, but you're not gonna be able to see it. [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you, but you're not gonna be able to hear it, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're not gonna be able to understand. And you're like, okay. So yeah, what's the point of you talking to me then? So it's clear, like you said that Jesus. Is teaching that the secrets, and that's really, really what these are. [00:29:37] The Secrets of the Kingdom of God [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: It's brilliant and beautiful that Jesus would, that the, the son of God and God himself would tell us the secrets of his kingdom. But that again, first of all by saying it's a secret, means it's, it's for somebody to guard and to hold knowledge closely and that it is protected. So he says, teaching like the secrets of the kingdom of God are unknowable through mere human reasoning and intuition. [00:29:56] Jesse Schwamb: Interestingly here though, Jesus is also saying that. He's, it's not like he's saying no one can ever understand the parables, right, or that he intends to hide their truth from all people. [00:30:07] Understanding Parables and God's Sovereign Grace [00:30:07] Jesse Schwamb: Instead, he just explains that in order to highlight God's sovereign grace, God in his mercy has enlightened some to whom it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. [00:30:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's verse 11. So. All of us as his children who have been illuminated can understand the truth of God's kingdom. That is wild and and that is amazing. So that this knowledge goes out and just like we talk about the scripture going out and never returning void, here's a prime example of that very thing that there is a condemnation and not being able to understand. [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: That condemnation comes not because you're not intelligent enough, but because as you said, you do not have that predisposition. You do not have that changed heart into the ability to understand these things. [00:30:47] Doctrine of Election and Spiritual Insight [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: This is what leads me here to say like every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election. [00:30:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, because all people are outside the kingdom until they enter the Lord's teaching. How do we enter the Lord's teaching by being given ears to hear. How are we understanding that? We have been given ears to hear when these parables speak to us in the spiritual reality as well as in just like you said, like this general kind of like in the way that I presume Ryan Holiday means it. [00:31:12] Jesse Schwamb: The, this is like, he might be exemplifying the fact that these stories. Are a really great form of the ability to communicate complex information or to make you think. [00:31:21] The Power and Purpose of Parables [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: So when Jesus says something like The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, wow, we, you and I will probably spend like two episodes just unpacking that, or we could spend a lot more, that's beautiful that that's how his teaching takes place. [00:31:34] Jesse Schwamb: But of course it's, it's so much. More than that, that those in whom the teaching is effective on a salvation somehow understand it, and their understanding of it becomes first because Christ is implanted within them. Salvation. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:48] Parables as More Than Simple Teaching Tools [00:31:48] Tony Arsenal: I think people, and this is what I think like Ryan Holiday's statement reflects, is people think of the parables as a simple teaching tool to break down a complicated subject. [00:32:00] Tony Arsenal: Yes. And so, like if I was trying to explain podcasting to a, like a five-year-old, I would say something like, well, you know. You know how your teacher teaches you during class while a podcast is like if your teacher lived on the internet and you could access your teacher anytime. Like, that might be a weird explanation, but like that's taking a very complicated thing about recording and and RSS feeds and you know, all of these different elements that go into what podcasting is and breaking it down to a simple sub that is not what a parable is. [00:32:30] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. A parable is not. Just breaking a simple subject down and illustrating it by way of like a, a clever comparison. Um, you know, it's not like someone trying to explain the doctrine of, of the Trinity by using clever analogies or something like that. Even if that were reasonable and impossible. [00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's not like that a parable. I like what you're saying about it being kind of like a mini doctrine of election. It's also a mini doctrine of the Bible. Yes. Right. It, it's right on. [00:33:00] The Doctrine of Illumination [00:33:00] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's the doctrine of revelation. In. Preached form in the Ministry of Christ, right? As Christians, we have this text and we affirm that at the same time, uh, what can be known of it and what is necessary for salvation can be known. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: By ordinary means like Bart Iman, an avowed atheist who I, I think like all atheists, whether they recognize it or not, hates God. He can read the Bible and understand that what it means is that if you trust Jesus, you'll be saved. You don't need special spiritual insight to understand that that is what the Bible teaches, where the special spiritual. [00:33:42] Tony Arsenal: Insight might not be the right word, but the special spiritual appropriation is that the spirit enables you to receive that unto your salvation. Right? To put your trust in. The reality of that, and we call that doctrine, the doctrine of illumination. And so in, in the sense of parables in Christ's ministry, and this is, this is if you, you know, like what do I always say is just read a little bit more, um, the portion Jesse read it leads way into this prophecy or in this comment, Christ. [00:34:10] Tony Arsenal: Saying he teaches in parable in order to fulfill this prophecy of Isaiah. Basically that like those who are, uh, ate and are apart from God and are resistant to God, these parables there are there in order to confirm that they are. And then it says in verse 16, and this is, this is. [00:34:27] The Blessing of Spiritual Understanding [00:34:27] Tony Arsenal: It always seems like the series that we do ends up with like a theme verse, and this is probably the one verse 16 here, Matthew 1316 says, but blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. [00:34:40] Tony Arsenal: And so like there's a blessing. In our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and re receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation. That is the doctrine of of election. It's also the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of sanctification, the doctrine. [00:35:03] Tony Arsenal: I mean, there's all of these different classic reformed doctrines that the parables really are these mic this microcosm of that. Almost like applied in the Ministry of Christ. Right. Which I, I, you know, I've, I've never really thought of it in depth in that way before, but it's absolutely true and it's super exciting to be able to sort of embark on this, uh, on this series journey with, with this group. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: I think it's gonna be so good to just dig into these and really, really hear the gospel preached to ourselves through these parables. That's what I'm looking forward to. [00:35:38] Jesse Schwamb: And we're used to being very. Close with the idea that like the message contains the doctrine, the message contains the power. Here we're saying, I think it's both. [00:35:47] Jesse Schwamb: And the mode of that message also contains, the doctrine also contains the power. And I like where you're going with this because I think what we should be reminding ourselves. Is what a blessing it is to have this kind of information conferred to us. [00:36:01] The Role of Parables in Revealing and Concealing Truth [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: That again, God has taken, what is the secrets that is his to disclose and his to keep and his to hold, and he's made it available to his children. [00:36:08] Jesse Schwamb: And part of that is for, as you said, like the strengthening of our own faith. It's also for condemnation. So notice that. The hiding of the kingdom through parables is not a consequence of the teaching itself. Again, this goes back to like the mode being as equally important here as the message itself that Christ's teaching is not too difficult to comprehend as an intellectual matter. [00:36:27] Jesse Schwamb: The thing is, like even today, many unbelievers read the gospels and they technically understand what Jesus means in his teaching, especially these parables. The problem is. I would say like moral hardness. It's that lack of spiritual predilection or predisposition. They know what Jesus teaches, but they do not believe. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: And so the challenge before us is as all scripture reading, that we would go before the Holy Spirit and say, holy Spirit, help me to believe. Help me to understand what to believe. And it so doing, do the work of God, which is to believe in him and to believe in His son Jesus Christ and what he's accomplished. [00:37:02] Jesse Schwamb: So the parables are not like creating. Fresh unbelief and sinners instead, like they're confirming the opposition that's already present and apart from Grace, unregenerate perversely use our Lord's teaching to increase their resistance. That's how it's set up. That's how it works. That's why to be on the inside, as it were, not again, because like we've done the right handshake or met all the right standards, but because of the blood of Christ means that the disciples, the first disciples and all the disciples who will follow after them on the other hand. [00:37:33] The Complexity and Nuances of Parables [00:37:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've been granted these eyes to see, and ears to hear Jesus. And then we've been given the secrets of the kingdom. I mean, that's literally what we've been given. And God's mercy has been extended to the disciples who like many in the crowds, once ignorantly and stubbornly rejected God and us just like them as well in both accounts. [00:37:49] Jesse Schwamb: So this is, I think we need to settle on that. You're right, throughout this series, what a blessing. It's not meant to be a great labor or an effort for the child of God. Instead, it's meant to be a way of exploring these fe. Fantastic truths of who God is and what he's done in such a way that draw us in. [00:38:07] Jesse Schwamb: So that whether we're analyzing again, like the the lost coin or the lost sheep, or. Any number of these amazing parables, you'll notice that they draw us in because they don't give us answers in the explicit sense that we're used to. Like didactically instead. Yeah. They cause us to consider, as you've already said, Tony, like what does it mean to be lost? [00:38:26] Jesse Schwamb: What does it mean that the father comes running for this prodigal son? What does it mean that the older brother has a beef with the whole situation? What does it mean when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed? How much do we know about mustard seeds? And why would he say that? Again, this is a kind of interesting teaching, but that illumination in the midst of it being, I don't wanna say ambiguous, but open-ended to a degree means that the Holy Spirit must come in and give us that kind of grand knowledge. [00:38:55] Jesse Schwamb: But more than that, believe upon what Jesus is saying. I think that's the critical thing, is somebody will say, well, aren't the teaching simple and therefore easy to understand. In a sense, yes. Like factually yes, but in a much greater sense. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that he quotes Isaiah there because in that original context, you the, you know, you have God delivering a message through Isaiah. [00:39:17] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. The people are very clear. Like, we just don't believe you're a prophet of God. And like what you're saying is ridiculous, right? And we just don't wanna hear you. This is very different than that. This is, Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him, not necessarily hear, but all, all who are hear Him, I guess rather, but not necessarily all who are listening with those spiritual ears. [00:39:33] Jesse Schwamb: And so this is like, I love the way that he, he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here. Because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense. [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, I'm going to be speaking to you in code and half of you have the key for all the code because the Holy Spirit is your cipher and half of you don't. And you're gonna, you're gonna listen to the same thing, but you will hear very different things. [00:40:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think is, is interesting to ponder on this, um. [00:40:12] The Importance of Context in Interpreting Parables [00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: God always accommodates his revelation to his people. And the parables are, are, are like the. Accommodated accommodation. Yeah. Like God accommodates himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. And in some ways this is, this is, um, the human ministry of Christ is him accommodating himself to those. [00:40:38] Tony Arsenal: What I mean is in the human ministry of the Son, the parables are a way of the son accommodating himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. So there, there are instances. Where the parable is said, and it is, uh, it's seems to be more or less understood by everybody. Nobody asks the question about like, what does this mean? [00:40:57] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then there are instances where the parable is said, and even the apostles are, or the disciples are like, what does this parable mean? And then there's some interesting ones where like. Christ's enemies understand the parable and, and can understand that the parable is told against them. About them. [00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So there, there's all these different nuances to why Christ used these parables, how simple they were, how complicated they were. Yes. And again, I think that underscores what I said at the top of the show here. It's like you can't treat every parable exactly the same. And that's where you run into trouble. [00:41:28] Tony Arsenal: Like if you're, if you're coming at them, like they're all just simple allegory. Again, like some of them have allegorical elements. I think it's fair to look at the, the prodigal son or the, the prodigal father, however you want to title that. And remember, the titles are not, generally, the titles are not, um, baked into the text itself. [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: I think it's fair to come to that and look at and go, okay, well, who's the father in this? Who's the son? You know, what does it mean that the older son is this? Is, is there relevance to the fact that there's a party and that the, you know, the older, older, uh, son is not a part of it? There's, there's some legitimacy to that. [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: And when we look at Christ's own explanation of some of his parables, he uses those kinds, right? The, the good seed is this, the, the seed that fell on the, the side of the road is this, right? The seed that got choked out by the, the, um, thorns is this, but then there are others where it doesn't make sense to pull it apart, element by element. [00:42:21] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other thing is there are some things that we're gonna look at that are, um. We're gonna treat as parables that the text doesn't call a parable. And then there are some that you might even look at that sometimes the text calls a parable that we might not even think of as a normal parable, right? [00:42:38] Tony Arsenal: So there's lots of elements. This is gonna be really fun to just dig stuff in and, and sort of pick it, like pull it apart and look at its component parts and constituent parts. Um, so I really do mean it if you, if you're the kind of person who has never picked up a Bible commentary. This would be a good time to, to start because these can get difficult. [00:42:59] Tony Arsenal: They can get complicated. You want to have a trusted guide, and Jesse and I are gonna do our, our work and our research on this. Um, but you want someone who's more of a trusted guide than us. This is gonna be the one time that I might actually say Calvin's commentaries are not the most helpful. And the reason for that is not because Calvin's not clear on this stuff. [00:43:17] Tony Arsenal: Calvin Calvin's commentaries on the gospel is, is a harmony of the gospels, right? So sometimes it's tricky when you're reading it to try to find like a specific, uh, passage in Matthew because you're, you, everything's interwoven. So something like Matthew Henry, um, or something like, um, Matthew Poole. Uh, might be helpful if you're willing to spend a little bit of money. [00:43:38] Tony Arsenal: The ESV expository commentary that I've referenced before is a good option. Um, but try to find something that's approachable and usable that is reasonable for you to work through the commentary alongside of us, because you are gonna want to spend time reading these on your own, and you're gonna want to, like I said, you're gonna want to have a trust guide with you. [00:43:55] Tony Arsenal: Even just a good study bible, something like. The Reformation Study Bible or something along those lines would help you work your way through these parables, and I think it's valuable to do that. [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: Something you just said sparked this idea in me that the power, or one of the powers maybe of good fiction is that it grabs your attention. [00:44:15] The Impact of Parables on Listeners [00:44:15] Jesse Schwamb: It like brings you into the plot maybe even more than just what I said before about it being resonant, that it actually pulls you into the storyline and it makes you think that it's about other people until it's too late. Yeah. And Jesus has a way of doing this that really only maybe the parable can allow. [00:44:30] Jesse Schwamb: So like in other words, by the time you realize. A parable is like metaphorical, or even in a limited case, it's allegorical form you've already identified with one or more of the characters and you're caught in the trap. So what comes to my mind there is like the one Old Testament narrative, virtually identical, informed to those Jesus told is Nathan's parable of the You lamb. [00:44:52] Jesse Schwamb: So that's in like second Samuel 12, and I was just looking this up as you were, as you were speaking. So in this potentially life and death move for the prophet Nathan confronts King David. Over his adultery with, or depending on how you see it, rape of Bathsheba, and then his subsequent murder of her husband Uriah, by sending him to the front lines of battle. [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: So he's killed. And so in this parable that Nathan tells Uriah is like the poor man. Bathsheba is like the Yu a and the rich man obviously represents David. If you, you know what I'm talking about, go back and look at second Samuel 12. And so what's interesting is once David is hooked into that story, he cannot deny that his behavior was unjust as that of the rich man in the story who takes this UAM for himself and he, which he openly. [00:45:38] Jesse Schwamb: Then David openly condemns of course, like the amazing climax of this. And as the reader who has. Of course, like omniscient knowledge in the story, you know, the plot of things, right? You're, you're already crying out, like you're throwing something, you know, across the room saying like, how can you not see this about you? [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: And of course the climax comes in when Nathan points the finger at David and declares, you are the man. And that's kind of what. The parables due to us. Yes. They're not always like the same in accusatory toward us, but they do call us out. This is where, again, when we talk about like the scripture reading us, the parable is particularly good at that because sometimes we tend to identify, you know, again, with like one of the particular characters whom we probably shouldn't identify with, or like you said, the parable, the sower. [00:46:22] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't the Christian always quick to be like, I am the virtual grounds? Yeah. You still have to ask like, you know, there is not like a Paul washer way of doing this, but there is like a way of saying like, checking yourself before you wreck yourself there. And so when Jesus's parables have lost some of that shock value in today's world, we maybe need to contemporize them a little bit. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I, and I think we'll talk about that as we go through it. We're not rewriting them for any reason that that would be completely inappropriate. Think about this though. Like the Jew robbed and left for dead. And you know the story of the Grace Samaritan may need to become like the white evangelical man who is helped by like the black Muslim woman after the senior pastor and the worship leader from the local reformed church passed by like that. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: That might be the frame, which we should put it to try to understand it whenever we face a hostile audience that this indirect rhetoric of compelling stories may help at least some people hear God's world more favorably, and I think that's why you get both like a soft. And a sharp edge with these stories. [00:47:20] Jesse Schwamb: But it's the ability to, to kind of come in on the sneak attack. It's to make you feel welcomed in and to identify with somebody. And then sometimes to find that you're identifying entirely with a character whom Jesus is gonna say, listen, don't be this way, or This is what the kingdom of God is, is not like this. [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: Or again, to give you shock value, not for the sake of telling like a good tale that somehow has a twist where it's like everybody was actually. All Dead at the end. Another movie, by the way, I have not seen, but I just know that that's like, I'll never see that movie because, can we say it that the spoiler is, is out on that, right? [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: Are we, what are we talking about? What movie are we talking about? [00:47:56] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I don't, I don't wanna say it. I didn't [00:47:57] Tony Arsenal: even get it from your description. Oh. [00:47:59] Jesse Schwamb: Like that, that movie where like, he was dead the whole time. [00:48:02] Tony Arsenal: Oh, this, that, that, that movie came out like 30 years ago, Jesse. Oh, seriously? [00:48:06] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. All right. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: So Six Sense. [00:48:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That movie came out a long time ago. [00:48:10] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not like the parables are the sixth sense, and it's like, let me get you like a really cool twist. Right. Or like hook at the end. I, and I think in part it is to disarm you and to draw you in in such a way that we might honestly consider what's happening there. [00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: And that's how it reads us. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a good point. And, and. It bears saying there are all sorts of parables all throughout the Bible. It's not just Jesus that teaches these, and they do have this similar effect that they, they draw you in. Um, oftentimes you identify it preliminarily, you identify with the wrong person, and it's not until you. [00:48:45] Tony Arsenal: Or you don't identify with anyone when you should. Right. Right. And it's not until the sort of punchline or I think that account with Nathan is so spot on because it's the same kind of thing. David did not have ears to hear. [00:48:58] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Until he had That's good point. Ears [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: to hear. [00:49:00] Jesse Schwamb: Good point. [00:49:01] Tony Arsenal: And he heard the point of the parable. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: He understood the point of the parable and he didn't understand that the parable was about him, right? It's like the ultimate, I don't know why you're clapping David, I'm talking about you moment. Um, I'm just have this picture of Paul washer in like a biblical era robe. Um, so I think that's a enough progam to the series. [00:49:20] Preparing for the Series on Parables [00:49:20] Tony Arsenal: We're super excited we're, we'll cover some of these principles again, because again, different parables have to be interpreted different ways, and some of these principles apply to one and don't to others, and so we'll, we'll tease that out when we get there next week. We're gonna just jump right in. [00:49:34] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna get started with, I think, um, I actually think, you know, in the, the providence of, of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then obviously the providence of God in Christ's ministry, the, the parable that kind of like frames all of the other parables,

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Tiff and Kristy break down the concept of work-life balance, and why so many people can't seem to acquire it. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am back today and you know, this is me Spiffy Tiffy I never say my name and I just assume everyone knows me. I actually this is a funny story. I actually had ⁓ Someone the other day it was a child was like, ⁓ you record podcasts you you're on a podcast Are you famous and I said well maybe in the dental world like for ⁓   small, tiny percentage, people might know who I am. So, it's Spiffy Tiffy, Tiffanie, I'm here, I've been here for a while, and I'm just super excited to bring so much fun and joy, and one of our core values is fun, and it has been Kiera and I's core value since the day we met, and that is one that I have refused to get rid of, even though every year we update our core values and they shift and change a little bit, fun has stayed there. The definition of fun has evolved and been   tailored down to what we want it to be, but it has remained and I think we have some fun. So I hope you guys have fun on this podcast. I hope you enjoy it. I have Kristy here with me today and she is ready to rock out some fun, you guys. And I, you know, we've already recorded one this morning and Kristy, you said it perfectly. I was going deep and I don't know. It's a feeling today. We got a lot of leadership stuff we're chatting about and I feel like goodness gracious, Kristy, you're my gal. You keep me centered. You keep me calm.   DAT Kristy (01:07) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:21) and you allow me the space to go deep. So thank you for being here. Thank you for recording so many podcasts with me and just for being you, Kristy. How are you?   DAT Kristy (01:30) Good, thank you. I'm excited to be here. It's always a good time when we can get together and help with anything ⁓ with our doctors, hopefully up and coming doctors, new to dental aging doctors. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:42) Yeah. Yes. Right? Yes.   I agree. I totally agree. And I love that you said that because there are so many listeners here. I think sometimes I forget, we get a lot of clients that have listened to our podcast in the past and that's how they found us. And it's just such an incredible resource to be able to get information to people and a tool to be able to reach so many new dentists. And then Kristy, I think I forget when they come,   from the podcast, right? Or they've listened to the podcast in the past and came from, I don't know, Zenist advisors. They maybe said, hey, talk to these ladies, they're great. Whomever, wherever, however they found us, I forget that they still listen. And then I'll have a client that's like, I get texts sometimes that's like, Tiff, I'm listening to this one, and you just said this, or Kristy said this, Trish, and I get these texts from clients that I've had for years. And I'm like, my gosh, that's funny. I didn't even consider the fact that you   You were still here. So repeat offenders. Thank you so much for being here. We love you guys. So like Kristy said, clients who are here. Hello. Um, those of you who are listeners and maybe you're just like, no, Tiff, I am a listener. I'm a diehard listener and I will be here for that. Hello. And if you're a listener who's like, gosh, I just keep thinking about it. I keep considering and this information is great. And these ladies sound amazing, but today's not about it's and, and, and.   DAT Kristy (02:43) you   The Dental A Team (03:10) I'm gonna call them because whether you say yes to success and you're our newest client or you say this is incredible information, I'm gonna implement some of these tools that you just gave me and we'll talk again soon. We're here for it. I want you guys to understand that we are not the company that you call and it's like, if you don't say yes, we never talk to you again. No, you say yes and, right? Yes, this was great information.   and I'm ready to start. Yes, this is great information and I'm gonna go implement it I'll talk to you soon. Okay, pressure's off. So just call us. That was great, Kristy. I think that was a wonderful reminder to everyone. There's literally no pressure. Gosh, Kristy, I love you for so many things and today I am just loving on you for leadership communication, conversations and just like effective balance, right?   We have a fun topic here, and I told you I have some tangents on it, and I think you do too, and I think we align pretty well on this topic. We really wanted to chat, and there's a newsletter. If you're subscribed to our newsletters, you should be getting a newsletter as well that will have similar, probably very different conversations in it, but make sure you're signed up for our newsletters that you're getting that as well. So today's topic, this moment's topic, is work-life balance. And I...   get asked this by a multitude of professionals, whether they are team members, leaders, managers, owners, doctors, dentists, I don't know, and financial advisors, like anyone under the sun who does a job, I have heard, I want work-life balance, TIF, how do I have work-life balance? And I think it's a really tricky statement, and I think it's overused and misunderstood. And I think you just need   balance. My opinion is by separating, Kristy, tell me if I'm crazy. By separating and saying I want work-life balance. It's like saying I have a life and I have work. For me, I have a life and I work within that life. I don't have my work-life that is like, in your brain, it just creates these two separate entities that then you're trying to smash together. It's like saying I'm a dentist.   and I'm a chiropractor and I want to do both out of my office. So I want to, while I'm drilling and doing this crown, I also want to be cracking their neck. You can't do that. It's literally impossible. So I think saying I want balance in my life is more clear and more understood than I want work life balance, which confuses it and makes it feel impossible. It feels literally difficult when I say I want work life balance.   it in my body feels difficult. It feels hard. But when I say I want balance, that feels achievable. That is like graspable. can see it. I know what it feels like to have balance. So I can emanate it. I can mimic the feeling in my body and I can find it. And I just think people just misunderstand that. But Kristy.   What are your thoughts on it? How do you feel about the term work-life balance? And then we'll get into, I promise you we'll get into how to achieve some of this balance. But Kristy, first, think definitions are always most important. So tell me your thoughts.   DAT Kristy (06:39) I know we never want to go like political or anything like that in that realm, but listening to you takes me back to growing up and hearing how moms entering the workforce and how can they work and be a mom. And so it just, kind of makes me laugh. And honestly, what you said is spot on. I don't, I don't know how you can do both at the same time, but   The Dental A Team (06:52) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (07:06) but I do think you can be wear many hats. It's just how do we devote our time to it? So identifying, honestly going back to the results, what are we looking for in the first place? So when you say work-life balance, tell me more about that. What does that mean? What does that mean to you? Because it may mean something different to somebody else. I for one get,   a lot of gratification from my work and purpose from it. So it brings a lot to my life. So to separate, yeah, I can't. But to devote certain amount of time to certain things, I can grasp that 100%.   The Dental A Team (07:51) Yeah, I love that clarity that you brought even to maybe like potentially realizing where the term comes from, because I agree with you. think that that is a huge space and a huge learning curve for everyone. And we're still kind of in it. think we're, I think we're still so much in that world. It's 2025, but we are still so much in that world of moms and not even just moms, but   primary caretakers coming into the workforce or primary caretakers also working. And it's like that, I think you're right. I think that is a confusing factor. And I love what you said that work gives you, it provides something positive to your life. So to keep those separate feels wrong. And I think so many of our leaders and our dentists feel that same way, which also confuses it. And you said,   tell me more, tell me what that looks like. And I know I've asked the question before and I've had a doctor be like, that means I'm home before 5.30 so that I can cook dinner for my family. I'm like, that's easy. Like, what's keeping you at the office? Like, why are you there? Right? Like, let's remove some obstacles. And I've had doctors that are like, well, I have a doctor that was like, Tiff, I wanna work three and a half days a week and I wanna make a million dollars in collections a year. Cool.   He's like, then I can be home. I be with my kids. I can do all the things. And he does, he does that. That's his work life balance. And, and that's his balance, right? His balance is being able to target and hit all of this areas of his life that are important. And Kristy, it makes me think of, ⁓ in March, we did our in-person event with so many of our amazing platinum doctors came out to visit us and their office managers. And we did a blocked scheduling, ⁓ exercise for.   personal life and like for our ourselves and for crowns, root canals, etc. So by personal life, mean like ourselves and what we did it was super cool of really looking at the like six areas of our lives six to eight areas of our lives that are truly valuable and important that we want to contribute to so, you know your relationships your marriage your work ⁓   DAT Kristy (09:52) Hahaha!   The Dental A Team (10:13) Right? Remember in Summit, I forgot to add work in there. ⁓ If you were there for Summit, you guys are laughing. But all those different areas that make us who we are and where we want to show up in life, and then time blocking and saying, this is how much time, like you said, time, this is how much time I want to dedicate to this area for it to feel valuable and balanced, because it's not all going to be equal.   I'm not gonna spend as much time maybe going on dates with my boyfriend and having one-on-one time as I am recording podcasts and showing up for my clients. That doesn't mean it's imbalanced. That would be wild. He would go crazy if I were spending that much time like, we're going on a date or we're going on a river cruise. I don't even know what we would do with that amount of time. Couple times a year for our long vacations, we do that and it balances.   When we say work-life balance, it almost sounds and feels like we're looking for equality between the time spent. And that's just, it's just not realistic. There are a lot of people who have more time outside of work that they're doing other things with their life. And then there are other people who are like, no, I'm passionate about my job and I want to pour into it. That's their balance. And I think you nailed it, Kristy, by really   keying in on that time and saying how valuable it is to consider that there's even more than just work and quote unquote life. Like there are attributes to your life that need that value and that time consideration.   DAT Kristy (11:53) I almost wonder Tiff, like listening to you talk, we almost have to identify, like the first question should be what's missing, right? Because really why is that even a term, work-life balance? Wouldn't you agree it's likely there's something missing in that equation, so how can we do more of it? And the other part that...   The Dental A Team (12:03) Yeah. Yeah.   Totally agree.   DAT Kristy (12:22) Again, you know me, queen of analogies, but it's like people come in to the office and they go into hygiene and they're like, are you flossing your teeth? No, I hate flossing my teeth. Well, you need to be flossing every day. Why do we go from zero to a hundred? Like, can we maybe start with, how about flossing Monday, Wednesday, Friday instead of all or nothing, right? So I almost feel like that question, work-life balance needs to start with what's missing that I need more of.   The Dental A Team (12:35) Yeah.   Yes.   I love that because there's a gap we're not seeing and we feel out of alignment and we're not taking the time to step back and see it. And I think you're spot on because there's an area of life, the six to eight components, how many ever there are, there's an area that's out of alignment with the definition of balance for you. Kristy, I think what you're really good at and what you said even earlier was, well, what does that mean? Right? You're really good at   speaking to your clients in a clear and kind way and asking questions that evoke thought and results. So when you ask those kinds of questions to your clients, I've seen them, I've watched them, I join all of our consultants' calls at some point or another. So I've seen this happen live. They are able to give themselves the space to find it because you interrupted their thought pattern with something different so that they could   think of it from a different point of view. And I think it's just really, really something that is missed in a lot of consulting that's just systems focused, right? Like we are systems focused, we do provide systems, but we're people focused first because without this, without these kinds of definitions, your systems aren't, they're not gonna stick. I promise you, they're just not gonna stick, okay? We've seen it. So Kristy, something you do really well with your clients is,   DAT Kristy (14:09) Thank   The Dental A Team (14:16) keying into those definitions and then asking the thought provoking questions, you might even already have the answer, right? You are like, I know exactly, but if you tell the person, right, they're like, maybe, but if you evoke the thought process, interrupt those thought patterns and get them shifted onto a different, it's kind of, makes me think of when you're driving along, driving along and you're like, shoot, there's a detour.   And then you like scooch over to the next road. It's detouring you on and you're like, wow, these are beautiful houses. Like I've never been down this road and I've lived on this street for 20 years, right? But your pattern was disrupted and you were able to see something new and beautiful and fresh. And, or sometimes you're like, wow, this is ugly. I can't believe I live this close to this street or this, like sometimes you go down and you're like, what is this building? Like this looks horrible.   DAT Kristy (14:58) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (15:11) Right, so sometimes you open a door and you're like, wow, that is really ugly and I have got to spend some attention there. Doesn't mean every time we open a door, it's gonna be like rainbows and butterflies, right? But sometimes we open a door that's like, I need to sprinkle some magic fairy dust in here because this is a space that needs some attention. And Kristy, I think you truly do open those doors for clients. And my question in that, ⁓   What do you think that opens up for them? So you open those doors, you get their thinking differently, but then how does that process change their business ownership and their, literally their profitability? Like these pieces that we work on with our clients, how do you see it totally improve the reasons that they come to us, right? They say systems, profitability, we want to pay our team more, we want a more engaged team.   that system change, that thought process change, how do you see that positively affecting those things that they've come to us for?   DAT Kristy (16:15) Yeah, well, to back up one notch, Tiff, even finding out like their why, once we get there, I think it's also asking one more question of, okay, wonderful, that's what you want, right? We've identified that. ⁓ What will it give you? And it's usually something emotional, right? So then when we're doing the hard work, we can remind them back to that this is what you were looking for.   And again, it's if we're off track, did your vision of what we want change or are we still going for this? Okay, great, we're still going for this and that helps them get the momentum back for getting there. will ⁓ you repeat your question for me, sorry.   The Dental A Team (17:00) Yeah.   No, I talked a lot. Thank you. ⁓ My question was, when we do get these definitions in place and figure out what does balance mean? Why are we doing this? And I think you're right. When we know that why, then the balance is easier to find because we know what's going to support the why. So once that's discovered, which you do very quickly for your clients, I again have watched it happen.   What do you see the positive impacts on the business, the leadership? Because they come to us, right? And they say, I want systems, I want profitability, want a happy team. Like, how do you see those things improve by defining these and really improving their personal selves and finding that balance?   DAT Kristy (17:41) Yeah, so I believe that when we identify it and we start working toward it, they do start to feel a sense of balance. And so when they are back in the rut of things or in the weeds of things, they approach it more refreshed. They have a different outlook. It's not a drain on them. And so literally, it's the same thing as like when we start coaching, all ask clients, know, how much time are you spending working on your business? How many team meetings are you having?   Well, we used to, but we don't. And I'm just a firm believer that the time we spend working on the business, you will achieve outcome because you're in a sense creating that balance to then when you are in the business, you're a lot more effective. I've seen it time and time again, you know, even to the point where... ⁓   I have one client that literally she takes off two more weeks a year, but she's producing the same this year on trajectory to make more. literally the first year she took those extra two weeks off, she's making just as much as she did the year prior, but she gained time, right? So when she achieved that balance of the goal to be able to take time to do X, Y, Z, she identified it. Then when she's there,   The Dental A Team (18:47) Yeah.   them. Yeah.   DAT Kristy (19:05) She's way more productive and focused on what she's doing. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:10) I agree. And   I've seen that with your clients, I've seen that with mine, I've seen it with Monica's, Trish's, Dana's, everybody's clients. I've seen that exact thing happen where you're just, when you have that balance, you have a better sense of ease in life. I think when you're misbalanced, when you're out of alignment, I know I have a doctor that we've worked with that, this doctor is an amazing human being and showed up.   and was just like, I have to work, I have to do this, I have to grind, I'm the only one that can. And I think we hear that a lot. And so then they almost get to the point where they don't know how to not do that and feel successful, first of all. And then they don't know how to, then they don't know how, they start resenting their work. And when you resent your work, you're slower, you're less detailed, you really care less, so your diagnosis goes down.   acceptance goes down, your schedule starts falling apart, because the universe is like, oh, you don't really like this, let me take it away from you. Hygiene falls apart, team members start quitting, and it's typically because, again, like my example earlier, I had a doctor that was like, I just want to be home by 530. Then do it. Typically, it's because we're there till six, seven, eight o'clock at night, because we think we're the only ones who can. It's so out of alignment that everything else just sucks, and we start to hate it.   DAT Kristy (20:26) Yep.   The Dental A Team (20:32) But when we can find that balance and even just defining it brings the balance to center stage and it's much easier, that I totally agree with you. That's when we're intentional with our time. And when we're intentional with our time at work, we bust through things quicker, we enjoy it, we diagnose better, we are more invested in our patients than the outcome. And so case acceptance naturally increases. And we've seen like, we've seen huge.   huge profitability increases, 30 % within three months I've seen because they were intentional, they did the things they had to do and they listened, they implemented really freaking well and they were like, all right, Kristy, I believe you, I trust you, that's why I hired you, I'm gonna do this and we're gonna celebrate at the end. And we've seen it, we've seen so much happen in such a short amount of time with that kind of mindset.   I totally, I totally agree with you. think this is, I hope this is really, really valuable to even people who are showing up as amazing leaders. It's still very easy to get caught in the trap of ego filled. I have to. And I've seen incredible leaders be the ones that, that ego, it sneaks in there. It has to be there on some level. Always our ego has to be there. You can't totally get rid of it. It's, it's a good.   but it needs a balance. And sometimes that ego, when we're busy, starts to creep up and starts to get louder. And we start to get to the point where we think, this is all on me. I have to do it. No, Tiff, you don't understand. I have to be here till seven. And Kristy, I think that's the space where you're able to come in as a consultant and really say, but do you really have to? Is there not a way out? Let's explore that together.   you do that by asking those questions. And Kristy, I've watched you do it and I think it's incredible.   DAT Kristy (22:33) Thanks. Yeah, I'm hearing you say delegation and honestly, know, again, flipping it, we have to take ourselves out of the equation. I think, again, we see it every day. We're in our own way. And so when we approach something and take ourselves out of the equation, just even with the delegation part of it, when you are able to flip that, then you can see by not delegating,   you're hindering your team's growth. And that's a different perspective than my team won't rise up to the occasion, right? I'm part of that equation. So yeah, I love it.   The Dental A Team (23:14) Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And you pulled out a great word and action item there. think delegation is key. So I think a couple of takeaways are action items that you guys have. giving you, I'm gifting you those today is number one is to really, think Kristy, you said like, look at your why. Why are you doing this? And then where are you out of balance that is making you feel like you have no work life balance? So what is, what does the terminology actually mean to you? What is your why? How can you get there?   when you get to these points and you need help, please reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com You can reach us on our website. You can reach us with a review below, like however you need to find us and get to us, Instagram, Facebook, I don't care, reach out. We're here to help you through it. So go figure out what's your why. If you know your why, figure out how are you out of balance on getting there. And then Kristy, I think your word delegation, like find something, even if it's one thing today that is on your plate that you can successfully delegate to someone else.   And as an example, I was on a marketing call with an office manager with an outside marketing company. This is first time I've ever met them. she was great. The gal was great. And she said, no one's responding to your social media interactions, right? There's no engagement responses. So we've got TikTok and a massive amount of great social media following, but there's no responses happening. And she's like, we don't have to figure it out today, but I'm just.   I'm letting you know and the manager was just like, okay, I'll figure it out. I'll get on it. And I looked at the manager and I said, well, your new patient advocate who's only seeing new patients, who's not getting enough new patients in her, we're not seeing enough new patients. That's one of our issues. Why doesn't she do it? Like her job is to ensure that start to finish, new patients get the experience. This is the very baby start is engagement. And she sat back, you could see she relaxed and she was just like,   my God, you're right. And so my point of that story is sometimes it's something so simple. And I said, you're investing in her and you're telling her that she is worthy and value valuable enough to take a task like this on. That's really cool. And I think it's going to inspire her, encourage her and give her just so much strength in her position. You're actually helping her be better.   by giving her a task that was going to, you were gonna resent, you were gonna hate that task. So my point of that story, doctors, leaders, team members, look at your balance and say, what's keeping me out of balance? And is there something as simple as social media engagement, whatever it is, that I can pass on to someone that it makes more sense for them to do it? And it may make them feel better about their job. Go do those things. What's your why? What's keeping you from getting there? What's got you out of balance?   And what's one thing you can delegate to someone else to help inspire them in their career? Kristy, this was super fun. Thank you so much for taking the rides with me. And just you have incredible input. And I really appreciate you, Kristy. Thank you.   DAT Kristy (26:22) Thank you and just a little tip for somebody if they want to go do some research go look at the Eisenhower Matrix and Start to put your things in there. You'll see very clearly What can be delegated and ⁓ even things that maybe you thought were important that no longer will be important So little tip there for the end ⁓   The Dental A Team (26:43) That was great. Thank you, Kristy. All right,   guys, you heard it straight from us. Go do the things. If you've been here for a long time, you know doing the things is worth it. If you're just here, trust and you will reap rewards. I promise you. So as always, you guys, we are here to help on your journey wherever you're at. Please reach out. I've told you a million times how to get there. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You can go to our website, TheDentalATeam.com. There are ways that you can schedule calls with us. There are ways that you can reach out to us by   Text you guys Instagram Facebook email review below five stars are fantastic and I appreciate them However, you can get to us. I don't know a smoke signal like just reach out to us We are here to help you and we want to be that support for you Hello at the only team calm you guys we will catch you next time. Thanks for sticking it out with us  

Dr. Len Tau, aka the Reviews Doctor, is on the podcast. With Kiera, he goes into the most critical nuts and bolts of making sure your practice stands out (or at least keeps pace with) online reviews amid AI. He explains jargon terms like ranking power and factors and velocity of reviews, whether or not you should actually be responding to reviews of your practice, and a ton more. Visit SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com and enter the code RAVING to save $100 on registration for Dr. Tau's annual conference. About Dr. Tau Dr. Len Tau thrives on helping practices maximize their online reputation, marketing, and social media strategies. As a speaker, Len is known for his lively and engaging presentations packed with ready-to-use strategies. He regularly travels the country sharing his marketing brilliance and passion for practice growth with audiences. As a consultant, he offers practice leaders with real-world solutions tailored to fit their specific challenges and opportunities. Len loves to help doctors and their teams understand and implement successful online systems to build their practice. He currently serves as general manager of the Dental for Birdeye Reputation Marketing Software. Selected as one of Philadelphia's Top Dentists by Philadelphia Magazine, he continues to experience growth year after year in his fee-for-service practice focusing on general, cosmetic, reconstructive and implant dentistry. Following his father into the dental profession, Len graduated from Tufts University School of Dental Medicine and continues to pursue ongoing continuing education opportunities. He has had the privilege of serving patients for two decades. He is an active member of numerous professional organizations including the American Dental Association, the Pennsylvania Dental Association, the Academy of General Dentistry, the Eastern Dental Society, the Northeast Philadelphia Dental Implant Study Club, and the American Academy of Clear Aligners. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental Team listeners. This is Kiera and today I am so excited. This is one of my dear friends. We've known each other for several years in the industry. I'm super freaking pumped. I'm going actually be at his event next year in September. Little teaser. Stay tuned. He's got an amazing event he does every year in September. I have Dr. Len Tau. He is one of my faves. He is better known ⁓ as an authority in the dental consulting world, reputation marketing, and a practice growth. He's recognized by dentistry today as a top dental consultant for eight straight years.   He is the author of Raving Patients and 100 plus tips to 105 star reviews in a hundred days. Like this man knows how to do it. He's one of my faves. We really do collaborate on so many fun things. After 20 plus years in clinical practice, he now helps dentists nationwide, increase revenue, case acceptance and visibility. He leads the dental vision at BirdEye, hosts the Raving Patients podcast and runs the Supercharger Dental Practice Conference, which is the one I was alluding to that we're gonna be at next year in September, empowering practices to thrive in today's competitive landscape.   He's truly one of my faves. And today we're gonna dig into like, how do you get online reviews? But Len, welcome. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. How are you today?   Dr. Len Tau (01:06) I'm good, thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here.   Kiera Dent (01:08) Of course. And this just came about because Len like, let's just do a little teaser. You're prepping full like steam ahead right now for your event that's coming up in September in Florida. ⁓ I love like the last time you and I were on the podcast, we talked about you in clinical dentistry. And then we reconnected after some time and you've left the chair, you're living your best life and you full blown gone into the event space. So just like, I know we're gonna get into like online reviews and how AI is changing that it's going to be just a really, really fun episode today. But tell us a little bit like   How is it going from like full blown dentist in the chair to now full blown events, like running these awesome events that we're super excited to be a part. Just kind of give me a little insight to that.   Dr. Len Tau (01:46) Well, it's been, it's been a lot of, a lot of fun. It's been very different, obviously, you know, for 23 years, I practiced dentistry, um, for about 12 of those, 13 of those who was full time. And then I went part time in 2017 until I sold and retired in 2022. Um, but one of the things I've grew up on in dentistry was going to dental events and, the big, the ones, the small ones, you know, all over the country and as a dentist first, and then as a vendor.   Kiera Dent (02:08) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (02:15) Um, since 2013 or 14, so a long time in the space. know, one of the things that really hit me was that the events are not really put on very well. They're not, um, you know, whether you, if you're a dentist, there's issues when you're a vendor, there's issues. And I said, you know what? I want to change the game. And, um, one of my goals when I retired from dentistry was to start putting on events. So in 2023, um, in, in September, we did an event in Delray had 208.   Kiera Dent (02:25) Right.   Dr. Len Tau (02:44) Dennis there, 33 sponsors. was, first day was business, second day was marketing. Excuse me. First day was marketing. Second day was business. Had a 13, 14 speakers. It went off better than I could ever imagined. I then moved to the last year in 2024 to Scottsdale. And we were at the Scott Resort and Spa, which is a beautiful hotel and the event was good. It wasn't great. Definitely moving to different coasts.   I felt there was not as much, know, engagement, excitement about the event. So I, my family and my wife and I decided, Hey, we're going to do this. Let's have people come down to me. I live in beautiful, you know, part of Florida. we're having this year's event and the next three of them at super at, ⁓ at pure 66, a brand new hotel, ⁓ in Fort Lauderdale. It's literally half hour from my house, five miles from the airport, easy to get to. So this year event is September 26th and 27th.   Kiera Dent (03:32) Bye.   you   No.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (03:45) We've got 14 speakers, ⁓ mixture of business and marketing. So we've got people talking about social media, about content. We have people talking about saving money on taxes. We're talking about how to become a fee-for-service practice. ⁓ So a lot of different great content and top speakers, Steve Rasner, Paul Goodman, ⁓ Jeff Buski, ⁓ Richard, Rich Maddow. So some real, real heavy hitters. And then some people who people haven't really heard of, Melanie Diesel, who's new in the dental industry.   So, but I like to do it differently and my events are very high end. You come, you're going to see things you probably have never seen before. I give a ton of time to the vendors so the vendors love me because they make sure that they get integration or interaction with the attendees. So you're going to be speaking in 2026, same weekend at September 25th and 26th in 2026, same hotel, pure 66.   Kiera Dent (04:28) Sure.   Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (04:40) We're ramping things up right now. We're literally a month out from the events. still have people signing up. I still have people wanting to reach out as sponsors. And it's, it's, it's, is the fun time for me. Cause when I'm done, I'm, you know, I get a couple of months of break and then I start promoting 2027 again. So ⁓ it's been a good time. I really enjoy it. And I find that I've kind of ⁓ created something that's very different and the attendees really enjoy it and the vendors really enjoy it. So if I can make everybody happy,   Kiera Dent (04:45) No.   Dr. Len Tau (05:09) That's all I'm looking to do here.   Kiera Dent (05:11) ⁓ and Len, I hope the audience, if they can't see it, they can hear it. I think it's so fun because I mean, I've seen you in different spaces in your career, in your life. And there is just this like giddy, like younger version of Len that I feel is emerging of like, it's like giddy boyhood, like excitement of I'm excited to put these on. I'm excited to do these events. And it just makes me so happy for you. And what I think I'm hearing is yes, attendees are happy. Vendors are happy. But I also hear that Len is very happy and to do something   in dentistry is just very, very fun. It's very exciting. And so we're jazzed. I'm really excited. I love good events. I love great time. I love to help. love business marketing. Everybody can take that. That's not Kiera's jam. Like I, that's why I wanted to bring you on. You guys are very good at marketing. You're very good at that space. but to talk about how to help people have their best lives to grow the practices that they want to grow. I think you and I are so synergistic in that. So we're super excited and I love, I mean, I'm not going to highlight the fact that there were   a couple of sixes in that is September 26 at Pier 66. You guys hopefully like, I like the alliteration. Don't put anything weird on it guys, but I do appreciate that you made it easier. September six and nines flipped upside down are a six. Like hopefully everybody can remember September 26, Pier 66. It'll be a good time in 2026. I mean, we got four lines, so we're okay. We've at least got four sixes, not we didn't end on three, but I really hope an exciting step. We'll make sure we put some info for people.   For this year and for next year, I think it'll be a fun time. Dental A Team will be there, so come hang out with us. ⁓ Len, I'm super excited. I will not spoil secrets, but a lot of the things he told me for the events, I will say he does put his heart and soul into it. So Len, excited about that. Thank you for sharing. Good luck for this year. We're gonna be rooting you on this year and next year. And now let's pivot. Let's go into like your jam. You're in BirdEye, you're in marketing, you're on online reviews. AI has come into the scene. Practices are changing.   I also will say, I hope everybody listens to you of their like succession story. You hung up the hand piece, but you are still full steam ahead in dentistry. And so I hope people see that like there is no path to dentistry. Like you just, it's a, it's a beautiful world that you're in. So let's talk though, online reviews, AI, how is this working? How do we make sure that practices are still being visible? Chat GPT is on, on the prowl.   There are clients signing up with us now that have found us on chat. GPT, which is so random. It's changing how people have been doing things. Walk me through. What are you seeing with these online reviews? The importance, how to bring AI in? Like, let's just kind of go in a rift on how practices can still be visible with AIs. Like just showing up to the scene.   Dr. Len Tau (07:43) So I wanna talk about chat CPT for a second. ⁓ I refer to it as my best friend. ⁓ It helps me edit. No, I haven't named it yet. No, I haven't named it. ⁓ you have?   Kiera Dent (07:50) Have you named it? I've got to just ask Len. Have you named? I have! Me and Chet,   I had a name and now her name is Wanda. I don't know why, I don't even know where Wanda came, but people are like, here, are you hanging out with Wanda again? Cause I agree. Like they're our best friends. So go on Len. I can't wait to hear what you name your Chet GPT cause mine is currently Wanda.   Dr. Len Tau (08:06) I'll have to, I   have to name it now that I have to think of something. ⁓ but no, I started using it. I'm like, this is really helpful and it's only gotten better. And, just to give you an idea is, ⁓ my wife and I, and my son, my son just graduated high school. He's literally just started his freshman year at, university of Florida on a free ride. ⁓ smart, smart ass kid. I'm very proud of him. But, you know, and I travel a ton, but I travel a ton for business and I made a commitment. I think I told you that,   Kiera Dent (08:25) Boo? Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (08:35) during the summer when he was going away for school, I was not going to travel. So from March to literally next week, beginning of September, I haven't traveled at all for business. we did plan some really great travel for our personal lives. And one of the things we did was we had a cruise, a 17 day cruise to Europe. ⁓ And when I decided I did not want to do the excursions to the cruise, cause they're really expensive and you're with all these people. I prefer to kind of just go and tour myself.   Kiera Dent (08:44) It's awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (09:05) So I use ChatGPT in every city. And I said, I'm going to the city. This is what I'm going to get in. This is the cruise I'm going on. It got the cruise itinerary. And I said, I want to set up private tours in every city with different people. And it helped me pick the best tour guides. They referred me to a website called Tours by Local, which is an amazing website that you can meet people who are local that will take you around.   show you the city and it was amazing. It was amazing. So I thank Chachi PT for doing that because I wouldn't have known about half these things if I didn't do it. And in fact, one of the women, and actually the very first place you went to, which was in Split, Croatia, which was beautiful. I told her that literally that's kind of how I went down this road was I asked Chachi PT, what should I do in Split? And they said, you need to use this tour guide. She's the highest rated tour guide and has the best reviews on tours by local. like,   What's towards by local? And that started this whole thing. So she was, she was amazed to hear that. So, ⁓ I have been using Chad GPT for a long time, like I said, and even now it is people I know type in, know, get me to the best dentists in the area. And it's very much based on reviews. So you have to be a highly rated practice. you may not believe in reviews and if you do, think you're not smart, but you know, if, if you want to be at the forefront of where people are looking,   Kiera Dent (09:58) Yeah.   Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (10:25) You have to generate reviews in a significant amount. Velocity now, which is how often you're getting them, is one of the biggest ranking factors on Google, whether you want to believe chat GPT or not. ⁓ But you have to get reviews. You can't, you know, rest on your laurels and say, well, I have enough because you never have enough. Okay. And, ⁓ and you've got to let Google rank you high. And there's been a big discrepancy in the industry, a big, I don't want to say a misunderstanding.   Kiera Dent (10:43) read.   Dr. Len Tau (10:52) But I've been in the review space now since 2013, so 12 years. And in the past, dentists thought that if they get reviews, they're going to rank. And that's not the way it is anymore. If you have reviews, but don't pay attention to the other ranking factors, you actually don't rank well. And that's a problem. So, chat GPT AI is so important, but you still got to dominate Google. You still got to get to the top of the pages.   And that's really where the direction is going. and if you aren't there now and you are ignoring it, you're never going to get there. So I would love to talk to you about our list in instruct or educate the listeners and viewers of these ranking factors that they need, need to pay attention to, or they're going to be left behind when it comes to ranking on Google.   Kiera Dent (11:27) Yeah.   absolutely. And I'm excited for this too, because, I did notice that you've got to like, AI is just crawling the web. That's where it's getting, it's being taught. It's crawls it. It looks through all of it. And so agreed with you. have a lot of clients and like, we want the secret pill of marketing. And I might get your reviews up. Like it is constant and consistent that if you get those reviews up and you bring pieces to the table, that people literally like that's what's going to rank you higher. So I'm excited, Len to, to dig in deeper because it is like how   getting more reviews, but to hear that there's more beyond just the reviews really can help these offices like get the best bang for their buck, help more practices. And I'm like, it used to be when I first started consulting when I used to tell offices get to like 100 Google reviews. It is now I'm pushing people like five, six, 700 reviews that you need to be getting ranked into. And I don't know if you're seeing like a cutoff line or if it matters on that. So I'm really excited to dive into like, what are the rankings? What are the pieces? Is there a difference? But I'm like now   100 reviews, when I look at somebody I'm like, hmm, like if there's another dental practice that has maybe 400, 500 new clients come on, the first thing I do is I go look them up to see how many reviews do you have? And I'm shocked at how many dental practices actually are not showing up when I Google their names and they're like, no, no, care, we're here. And I'm like, but if I'm a prospective new client that doesn't work in your practice and I don't see you all the time and I just tried to find you and I'm looking for you.   How many patients who are not looking for you are not finding you as well. So yeah, take us away, and I'm super curious, very intrigued by this. It's fascinating. And I'll also say, because AI is new, feel like people got like a reset slate. Like, hey, you can actually get back into the game if you haven't been into the game, if you just start playing now. If you don't, I agree with you. I do think that you will unfortunately get obliterated without trying if you don't get into the game now.   Dr. Len Tau (13:28) 100 % so and I couldn't agree with you more. So the best thing to do here is if you're listening to this, I want you to go to a Google search and I want you to type your practice name in. Okay, so that's the first thing to do. Right.   Kiera Dent (13:39) and not in your office. Don't do it in   your office. Go somewhere else. Like try it somewhere else.   Dr. Len Tau (13:44) Right, well, and 100%, that's another thing is that if you're gonna look up your ranking specifically, you do not wanna do that from your office location, okay? Because you're not gonna get real results. You also wanna go into incognito mode or private browsing mode on your phone or your computer if you're doing that to check ranking. But this is not specifically about ranking. This is more about how you appear online. So go to Google and type in your practice name. Not your name unless it's the name of the practice, but your business name, okay?   Kiera Dent (13:52) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:13) and it doesn't have to be what's registered with the state board. It's how you, when you answer the phone, what you say, okay? Pennsylvania Center for Dental Excellence was my practice name, okay? So you wanna look yourself up. So these are some of the ranking factors that Google looks at. Obviously one of them is your total number of reviews you have. Definitely a ranking factor, but the total number has not been as important as some other factors as well. So.   Kiera Dent (14:20) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:40) Average number of reviews in the industry right now is about 350. It used to be like 100 was the golden number. Now 350 is the average in the industry. So are you average? Are you below average or are above average? Okay, that's something to look at. The second ranking factor, which is even more important is the velocity of reviews. So how many reviews, how often you're getting them. Okay, so if you're getting once every two weeks, not enough. If you're getting them once every week,   Kiera Dent (14:46) Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (15:10) Not enough. You don't need them every single day, but two or three every single week is ideal. Okay, because you think two or three every week gives you eight to 15 a month times 12 months is 100 reviews a year, which is a nice number. Okay, so you have to have that velocity. All right. Third ranking factor is the total score, your average number of stars. So   I would like you to be anywhere from 4.6 to five stars. Okay. I don't think you have to be only five stars. think there's a negativity related to that. If you're only five star reviews, but I also don't want you to below 4.5. Okay. ⁓ And if you're at 4.3, 4.2, or even 4.1, another better review or two, and you're to be in the threes. And that's really where you don't want to go. Cause you lose a huge percentage of patients who may come in if you're less than four stars. Okay. Another ranking factor.   is the primary category. So how do you know your primary category? If you look under your Google, your name, will say right where the stars is, will say, hopefully dentist in your town or dentist in your county or dentist in your city. Okay. So your primary category should be dentist because we're a dental practice. Okay. If you're an oral surgeon, you may want it to be oral and actual facial surgeon. If you're an endodontist, want it to say endodontist. You don't want it to say dentist if you're a specialist. Okay.   ⁓ That's a big ranking factor and I'll give you an example. I, ⁓ my wife had some plastic surgery over the last couple of years and we were referred to that doctor. So we didn't need to search for him. We were referred to him. went in, we liked him, we used his services. ⁓ And of course, being a plastic surgeon, I talked to him about reviews. He now uses BirdEye, but he had me speak in an event that he holds down here in Boca Raton.   And I talked about this exactly. And I asked everybody, cause it was a small group. What is your primary category? And he goes, he said to me, literally, he says, I'm listed as a nurse practitioner. He wasn't listed as a plastic surgeon. He was listed as a nurse practitioner. So his categories were all messed up. So when you actually typed in plastic surgeon near me, he never showed up because his category was wrong. So primary category is a very important ranking factor as well. Now you also have to make sure your secondary categories are also. ⁓   Kiera Dent (17:15) No.   Dr. Len Tau (17:35) ⁓ under ⁓ are there as well as under the proper categories. So secondary categories, if you're a dentist, dental clinic, teeth whitening services, denture care center, orthodontist, if you're doing aligners, if you're endo, you're doing root canals, you can have endodontist. If you do periodontist, can do periodontist. You want to make sure you have nine secondary categories. Okay, if you don't have them, you want to add them.   Now, how do you add them? It's very easy. You go to Google using ChatGPT or anything and say, how do I add secondary categories to my Google business listing? Okay. It will tell you exactly like a recipe how to do it. You need to add those secondary categories. All right. And if you want help doing it, you can always reach out to me. The last ranking factor, which is really important is making sure that the practices name, address, and phone number is consistent. Okay. So just to be clear, most   website companies do not do local SEO. They do website SEO, which is making sure the website is SEOed so the website ranks higher on the organic rankings. We're talking about getting the Google business page ranking higher, which the website companies are not focused on. So when it comes to the name, address and phone number, is it consistent? You have to be consistent. And this is a Google requirement.   It is not a patient thing. It's not a me thing or you thing. It's a Google requirement that this data is consistent. So the name is obviously important. So if you have the and or the ampersand, you may find things inconsistent. When it comes to the address, if you have, you know, South State Streets, Unit 510, you can have South or S, you can have Street or ST, and then you can have Suite, Unit, Number, or STE.   All these variations need to be consistent. So one of them has to be done and one and stuck with. And then if you are using a tracking number for whatever reason on your Google business listing, you may find your inconsistent there as well. So when you make everything consistent and you get a higher velocity of reviews, guess what happens over time? You rank higher on the maps. And when you rank higher on the maps, you get more visible for patients to find you. So that's where the secret sauce is. And   Not that this is a sales pitch about BirdEye, but that's exactly what BirdEye does. BirdEye does those. We check all those boxes for you. And then what ends up happening is a practices get more reviews. But more importantly, when they ask patients how they find them, they're going to see that they found them because of their ranking online and the reviews drove them to the practice. So that's how this whole thing plays a role in getting a practice more visible and credible.   Kiera Dent (20:06) Thank   Wow. So I was over here like taking a lot of notes, which I really loved. I love the number, the 350 at the average, the velocity, like three to five per week you were saying. It doesn't need to be an everyday, but I do agree like them consistently coming through the total score, the 4.6 to five primary category, secondary category, making sure we have nine. And then you were talking about like the practice name, phone number, all of that has to be consistent. So the addresses have to be the same. And that's going to help you rank higher.   Did I miss anything? Those are my notes, Len. And I'm just curious, like, did I catch them all? Because there was a lot of pieces to consider. And then I have some follow ups as well. So like, did I miss anything in that list?   Dr. Len Tau (21:02) No, I   think you got it all there.   Kiera Dent (21:06) Okay, so hopefully that was a good recap for everybody. If you were listening, I tried to like summarize everything he said, because I really feel that those are super valuable pieces to know. Now, Len, there's a couple of things that happen and I'm very curious of what you've seen. Maybe you know, maybe you don't know. It's just a riff for me genuinely curious over here. Does it impact for the business to respond to the reviews? Because I know there was like a big misnomer out there like for a while, like you have to respond to every single review that helps you rank higher. What's the   What's kind of the lay of the land right now responding to the reviews that come in?   Dr. Len Tau (21:39) So there's been a big push over the years to respond to reviews. And there's also been those naysayers who don't want you to respond to reviews. So I want to make this very clear. When you respond to a review and you acknowledge them as a patient, you are technically violating HIPAA. Okay. Now by the letter of the law, if you do that, you violated HIPAA and can be in trouble. Now in all the years I've been doing this, I've only seen one   Kiera Dent (21:49) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (22:08) example of a positive review being responded to and the dentist got in trouble. Okay. So if someone writes a review for you and it's five stars and you say, thank you so much for your feedback. We were glad you had a great experience in our practice. Okay. You technically violated HIPAA there because you acknowledged that they came into the practice. I don't think you'll ever run into any problems with that. I don't, I've never seen any instance when a, when a practice has got into trouble. But again, by the letter of the law, it's a violation.   Here's where the person ran into a problem. Okay. So the review in question, the patient wrote, I'm so happy with my appearance after I went to so-and-so's dental office. I think they were in Texas. The dentist responded, we're so happy that you, thank you so much for your review. We're so happy that you loved our magic needles. Okay. So it, from what I understand is the patient had Botox or   dermal fillers placed and that's what they call their magic needles. So the patient wrote, wrote a letter to the practice saying, I didn't appreciate you letting the world know that I had Botox done and asked for the review response to be taken down, which the dentist immediately did. Took it down and apologized, but it really pissed the patient off and the patient sued the dentist and won. Okay. Because the dentist went out of their way to   Kiera Dent (23:08) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Dr. Len Tau (23:33) you know, release private information that wasn't supposed to be done. So in that case, you shouldn't be doing that. Okay. Now on the same note, I would be very careful responding.   Kiera Dent (23:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (23:45) to a review that's left by a negative, a negative review that's written by a patient. I would be very careful responding publicly to that because it's very hard to respond without violating HIPAA. So a simple response like, we're sorry to hear about your experience. Please contact the office to discuss the concerns as we're unfortunately unable to comment due to HIPAA release privacy stuff. That's fine. But.   Again, I just not sure it's the best thing to do. So you have to be careful with negative reviews. What it doesn't do is we really haven't found any relationship between responding and ranking. Okay, so you have to, I always leave it up to the people to respond. I like using AI to respond as well, because I think it comes up with HIPAA compliant and really good responses. ⁓ But you have to decide what you want to do for your own practice.   Kiera Dent (24:16) Mm-hmm.   Interesting.   That's actually really helpful to know. ⁓ Okay, good feedback for people to ponder and decide what they want to do on. The second piece is   some people lose their Google My Business and they're not able to be found. ⁓ And I don't know if you have reasons why. I don't know if it's from like a name change or it's inconsistent. So like a lot of offices have a lot of reviews, but when you go to search them, they're hidden on Google My Business. Like it will show up on the person's side, but nobody externally can find it. Do you have any ideas of like what causes that or what offices can do if they're struggling with that?   Dr. Len Tau (25:11) So I want to clarify that what question you asked there. I'm sorry to ask a question when you asked the question was when you say that you're saying that when they search for their Google business listing, they can't find it or when someone is searching for the office, they're not visible on the maps.   Kiera Dent (25:15) Hey, that's okay.   So when they're searching, so if I just go into Google and I type in like my perfect smile, the website might link, but the Google My Business with all, and they might have like 150 Google reviews, like it might be, like they've got them all and the office can see it when they like log in as like, this is, you own this, but they've lost it and it's no longer visible publicly. Do you know what causes that or how they can get that back? It's okay if you don't, I'm just genuinely curious. Cause I know some offices struggle with this, especially with like name changes of practices.   going through different ownerships. ⁓ Some of them have told me it's like when I changed the name of my practice, it no longer showed up. Like we have all these reviews, but we're not showing up. Do you know what causes that or how practices can get back being visible?   Dr. Len Tau (26:02) Yep. Now that you   asked it that way, so that usually means that your Google business listing has been suspended. And if you can't find it on search, but you see it, means it's suspended in most cases. Name changes, address changes, other things you do can cause it to be suspended. There are, if you look up on use chat GPT, ⁓   and say, why is, why can your Google business page be suspended? There is a list of different reasons why it can get suspended. ⁓ if you're getting reviews the wrong way is a big one. So, like you should not be incentivizing for reviews. And I'm talking about incentivizing the patients. You shouldn't be getting reviews in your physical office space because there's IP address conflicts and location services on the patient's phone. So if you're doing that, not only will you can potentially lose reviews, but you can't get it suspended, but you can look on.   Kiera Dent (26:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (26:55) on chat GPT or Google and just say, what are the reasons that your business page can be suspended? And they're there. So usually you have to ⁓ re-approve it or re-verify that page. And there's certain things you do. You'll have to take a video of yourself in front of the practice, showing the address, showing the name of the business on the door. So there's things you will have to do to get it over to Google. So they'll re-verify you. And then once it happens, there's a good chance they'll unsuspend the listing. But that happens for that reason.   Kiera Dent (27:24) Gotcha. Okay. That's super helpful because I know a few offices have struggled with that. So was just curious for that. All right. This has been so helpful to figure out rankings. It's been helpful to understand. ⁓ My last question as we wrap up today on reviews has been so helpful, Len, is how do offices go about like, what are your recommendations? Yes, bird eye, swell, podium. Like there's a lot of review in Weave. I do, I usually recommend using an external one outside of things. think that they like, if they're just, if that's what they do, they're going to be experts at it.   But how can offices ethically and appropriately, like obviously great patient experience, but how do they increase these Google reviews? What are some of the best tactics you've seen to help these offices out?   Dr. Len Tau (28:04) So being biased, I mean, I'm a true believer in BirdEye because we help with the reviews and the ranking part. ⁓ Swell, which is a great product. know the guys who swell really well. A lot of their doctors don't rank well because they don't focus on the listings part of it or the ranking part of it. ⁓ I'm not a fan of Wee from a review perspective because they swell BirdEye and Podium, make it very easy. Weave doesn't. It's just the way we do it with our three other products. ⁓   I always say this, you can get reviews any way you want. The most effective is gonna be use some software, simple as that. But it all starts with the practice and it all starts with, I like to create a reputation culture in the practice, which means you know that every time a patient comes in the practice, that they're going to be evaluating you and reviewing you potentially. And you've gotta be on your best behavior, you've gotta put a happy smile on your face, you gotta treat them like they're the...   Kiera Dent (28:40) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (29:00) king of the world, okay? You gotta roll out the red carpet. And if you don't do that, they may write a bad review, okay? But if you don't create that reputation culture, I think it's gonna be hard to get the practice to really accelerate the reviews. So creating that reputation culture using great verbiage skills. I love calling it feedback, not a review. If you call it a review, it sounds like you're begging for it. ⁓ The feedback conversation is much more comfortable to have. So, you know, it's an interesting situation, but if you don't ask, you don't get.   So you've got to ask. I think if you ask and you combine it with a really good software, you'll get a really good number of reviews. If you don't ask, you don't get. It's that simple.   Kiera Dent (29:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   ⁓ well, that was so great. I appreciate this so much. And it's fun to hear about how AI is helping. It's fun to hear about how you still have to be great on Google. So ⁓ I just appreciate you. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate the knowledge you shared. appreciate for offices. I hope they take action and Len any last thoughts, how people can connect with you if they want more help on this. know ⁓ like truly in my opinion, this is the simplest marketing. Everybody wants to like sexy magic pill of marketing. And I'm like, no, it's like really great experience. Ask for the reviews, ask for the feedback.   like rank so that way people can find you I've had offices that had like three four or five new patients and they're like I need this marketing I need all these things which I'm not here to say not to do it but I will say great reviews will boost you very quickly so Len any last thoughts you've got how people can connect with you because it's been truly just an incredible episode today   Dr. Len Tau (30:26) So ⁓ I'm around the country a lot. So you can always connect with me in person if I'm at some of these events. If you wanna come to Supercharge, you can connect me there. SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com You can use the code RAVING to save $100 on registration. ⁓ We also have some scholarships available. So if you do wanna come, you can reach out to me personally. So ⁓ my cell phone's all over the internet. The easiest way, if you have any questions, you want advice, you want help, I'm the guy to reach out to. My phone number is 215.   Kiera Dent (30:40) Awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (30:55) 292-2100. And my best email is Len, L-E-N, at drlentau.com, which is D-R-L-E-N-T-A-U.com. And you can email me, you can text me, you can call me, tell me you heard about me here and you need some advice. I'm more than happy to offer it to you. I do it all the time. ⁓ I love when people reach out to me because they know I'm an expert. So I do it kind of as a favor to people. ⁓ But no, you reach out to me, I'm happy to give advice.   Kiera Dent (31:23) amazing. Len, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm super excited for Supercharge 2025 and especially 2026. So everybody snag that. And truly, I hope you take action from today's podcast. This is easy ways for you to boost your marketing, be found and seen online. And Len, thank you for joining me today. I truly, truly appreciate you.   Dr. Len Tau (31:41) Thank you for having me, Kiera, I appreciate it.   Kiera Dent (31:43) Of course. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Title: How to Quit Your W-2 and Never Look Back with Jamie Bateman Summary: In this episode of Raise the Bar Radio, Seth Bradley welcomes Jamie, a military veteran turned real estate and mortgage note investor, who shares his story of transitioning from a W-2 career into entrepreneurship and financial freedom. Jamie discusses the phases of his life, including collegiate sports, military service, and a long stint at the Department of Defense before pivoting to real estate and eventually mortgage note investing. He emphasizes how discipline shaped his journey and how shifting mindset, focusing on strengths, and leveraging his network were key to taking ownership of his life and finances. Jamie also dives deep into the mortgage note investing space, explaining how performing and non-performing notes work, the active nature of the business, and how he now offers passive investment opportunities for accredited investors. He closes by highlighting the importance of planning with intention, overcoming perfectionism, and using passive income to create margin and freedom in life. Links to Watch and Subscribe:  https://youtu.be/nRyX8_YA9YI Bullet Point Highlights: Discipline builds freedom - Sports, military, and entrepreneurship all instilled the value of discipline, which Jamie says is critical for success and freedom. W-2 life wasn't the path - Jamie recognized through his commute and stagnant career trajectory that he didn't want to follow the traditional path, sparking his exit plan. Mindset shift was essential - He stopped consuming negative news and started focusing on education and his strengths to shift into entrepreneurship. Mortgage note investing explained - Performing notes offer cash flow while non-performing notes offer the chance to add value, akin to fix and flips. However, both are active businesses, not passive. Passive income fuels risk-taking - Creating passive income streams allowed Jamie to take entrepreneurial risks while maintaining financial security. Action beats perfection - As an entrepreneur, chasing perfection isn't practical. Done is better than perfect. Reverse planning drives clarity - Backwards planning from a vivid vision 3-5 years into the future increases urgency and helps set clear, intentional actions. Final advice - Start by investing passively to learn, and later you can decide whether to become active. Don't underestimate the transferable skills you already possess. Transcript: (Seth Bradley) (00:02.062) What's up, builders? This is Raise the Bar Radio, where we talk about building wealth, raising capital, and all in all, raising the bar in your business and your life. This is the No BS podcast for capital raisers, investors, and entrepreneurs who are serious about scaling their business and living life on their own terms. I'm Seth Bradley, securities attorney, real estate investor, and entrepreneur, bringing you world-class strategies from the best in the game.   If you're ready to raise more capital, close bigger deals, build a better you and create true financial freedom, you're in the right place. Let's go. Jamie, what's going on, brother? Welcome to the show.   Thanks Seth, is awesome. I'm excited to be here and I'm hoping to add some value.   Absolutely, man. Third time's a charm. We've been trying to get this scheduled after I was on your show, which was fantastic. Had a really good time on that show and I think it turned out pretty good. I know we're going to deliver on this one as well.   Yeah, we're gonna try to try to I'll try to do as good a job as you did. So yeah, was that was a yeah, no, I that was a very, very good episode from adversity to abundance. highly recommend your your listeners check that one out to your episode on that show. So thanks for thanks for doing that.   (Seth Bradley) (01:20.086) Absolutely, man. You're an incredible interviewer. I've net, that's the only, I've been on dozens of podcasts and, you know, you pulled out a lot of things for me that I've, I've never talked about on the air. So it's pretty, pretty awesome. Pretty awesome show, man.   Appreciate that.   Cool man, well let's just jump right into your background man. What's your story? Take it back as far as you'd like to brother.   Yeah. Man, I'd like to think that life has phases. So I've had a few different phases in my life. I come from a large family. I'm the oldest of seven kids and we always had a competitive background as far as team sports and things like that. So I played lacrosse in college. That was always a foundational piece of my life and just kind of   think from there learned how to be a part of something bigger than myself and how to work toward a common goal with a with a team. So that's been something that's been a kind of a thread through my life and then got married and joined the military and actually joined the military technically before I got married, but seemed like I got married and then ran off and ran away from my wife. But it's not exactly what happened. But   (Jamie Bateman) (02:36.02) I joined the military, was an officer in the US Army. I did miss my first three wedding anniversaries through deployment and things like that. And again, it was a matter of trying to be plugged into something, you know, to serve and be a part of something bigger than myself and trying to add value like I think we all want to do. I've obviously glossed over a lot of details, but those were a couple of inflection points, I guess, if you will, like you like to talk about, I know.   And so my military career transitioned into a career with the Department of Defense as a civilian, and did 14 years as a civilian with DoD at Fort Meade. And the first half, so the first seven, for all you math wizards out there, was full time. And then the second half, the second seven years was part time. And that   seven years is when I was really building my businesses, which are largely real estate investing and mortgage note investing focus. So we can get into the details there. And then in 2022, I ended up quitting my job and now I have a few different small businesses that I run. And like you, Seth, I've got a lot of different things that I'm juggling and   You know, so, but yeah, I love talking about taking ownership of your financial situation and taking ownership of your life really. And I know that you and I have that in common. So yeah, that's a high level overview of my background.   Awesome, man. I appreciate that. There's a lot to unpack there. You know, going back to playing sports all the way up to the collegiate level, that's incredible. I always like to think even playing like popcorn or football back in the day, you need a way to instill discipline in yourself. And that's kind of the oldest memory I can think of where it was hard, right? Like it was like you've got a coach screaming at you.   (Seth Bradley) (04:38.134) Like back in the day, it's like, you know, they wouldn't give you water unless you like, you know, for like an hour, which I don't think they do that anymore now. But, you you had to earn that drink of water and all those sorts of things. But you you really learned what it's like to work hard and you really learned what discipline was all about. And I would say that and you can you can expand on this. But I would say that, you know, being in the military yourself, that takes it to a whole new level.   Right. It's like you got that from sports. You got that from the military.   Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously, they're very different in a lot of ways. But that is certainly a common theme is being disciplined. And people, people shy away from that word, because it just sounds like work or no fun and no flexibility. But I found that having discipline in your life ends up adding more freedom in a sense, because you kind of have your foundational pieces set in stone, you don't have to think about those. And so, yeah, regarding   team sports, it's really a matter of, you know, everyone doing their part, right. And so there's a level of individual discipline and, and then just, and then also just kind of putting the putting the group ahead of yourself. Obviously, you know, you want individual, there's nothing wrong with individual accolades. And I was certainly chasing, you know, those individual accolades. It's not something I shied away from, I was definitely was wrapped up in   trying to be an All-American and that kind of thing. And did get that a couple of times, you know, but at the end of the day, nobody really cares about that. And the way I viewed it was if I was doing my part, and I got those, you if I was scoring goals in lacrosse, as an example, that means I'm contributing to, you know, to the team, right. And so there's obviously a fine line there, but of going too far, either way. But yeah, that discipline is critical.   (Jamie Bateman) (06:36.73) you know, even it's certain I played at a high level in college and there was year round your training your your your into it. It was a division three school but it but the reality was we worked just as hard as any any D one program and yeah, it's it's a these are skills that have paid off and are absolutely transferable to the rest of life.   For sure. Yeah, I think you've got to get those intangible things. You've got to develop them somewhere along the way, whatever that is, if that's sports or the military or from your parents. mean, you can get it from different places, but you definitely need it. I mean, we're in different stages of our life at this point. talking about a lot. We talk about freedom and flexibility and fun to try to get away from kind of the W-2 mindset.   But in order to achieve freedom, flexibility and fun in a successful way, have to be disciplined to be able to get there. You had to have done something successfully to be able to get there or maybe what separates you from the guy living in a van down by the river. That guy has freedom and flexibility. I don't know about fun, maybe fun, but it's a different, obviously it's a different outcome.   Yeah, and I, I think I still need, you I still use a lot of discipline today. It's still, still required, but it's, I guess it's self imposed. And, you know, I just love, love having that flexibility and that freedom that comes along with being an entrepreneur. So yeah, it's been a central piece to my success for sure. But I still, I don't think it ever, you know, goes away. I just get to pick and choose what, you know, what discipline I want to   kind of enforce on myself, I guess. So yeah, absolutely. And as you said, the military was a huge part of that for me as well. I mean, that's a different kind of, different kind of discipline and different kind of teamwork and different, you know, if you lose the lacrosse game, okay, you lost the lacrosse game, but military the stakes are a little higher. So maybe certain things are more important attention to detail or critic is critical and   (Jamie Bateman) (08:53.73) But at the end of the day, it's, the same principles apply across both, I guess, sectors, if you will.   For sure. So let's dive into that transition. You started working kind of part-time there for seven years, so that seems like a transitional period. How were you able to progress from that W2? And what I've heard you say is call yourself a W2 quitter. I love that. How were you able to progress from a W2 person to a W2 quitter? What enabled you to do that and what that transition looked like?   I mean, you know, I do remember in 2015, probably a little bit maybe maybe say 2014. But I just you get, you know, I had a wife and two kids and I had the commute the long commute that I know a lot of people can identify with. So it just was Groundhog Day was the same thing over and over and over. And that's not me sitting here complaining about my family or having having the opportunity to work.   But after a while, it gets old. Let's just be real, right? So it's like you're sitting in traffic and I just, you start looking at, you know, I worked for the government and you look around and you say, who, okay, who's sort of ahead of me on this? Like you, like I think you probably mentioned on our, on your, your show and my, show, your episode, you look around to the people who are more kind of further along the path than you. You say, do you want to be that person? Is that the life you want? And man, I did not want that.   And it just just having that just super long term just you know, pot at the end of the rainbow, I guess, nothing driving me in the interim, man, it was it was just it was brutal. So I probably did a little woes me for a little bit there a little victim mentality for a bit. But then you start to realize, like, okay, if you don't take ownership of your own life, no one's going to right. So   (Jamie Bateman) (10:54.934) No one's going to come in and do this for you. So I'm not sure what truly, you know, created the change in my mindset, but my mindset absolutely started to change and it just made a shift. And I, and I stopped watching cable news. I stopped, just, you know, stop paying attention to all the things that I can't control. And I couldn't control back then and, and started saying, no, what do I have? What are my strengths? Who is in my, who's back to the team thing.   who's on my team, who's in my network that I can add value to and who can add value to me. So I started looking around and my father was a realtor for many years. My brother was a loan officer. We had one rental property at the time. I had worked at, I didn't mention, I worked at a title company and I worked for a mortgage broker before as well briefly. So I had this experience that a lot of people don't have and that's   you know, that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone. It just means these are my strengths. So let's point to that. And let's use that. So I started really being intentional about focusing on my strengths and my assets that I had in my life, right. And then another asset that I used to see as a liability was the time in the car. So I started listening to podcasts. you know, and then it turned into wait, I don't even want to go into work yet. Because this this podcast episode is amazing. And I'm learning so much.   know, bigger pockets and all the other real estate podcasts and different investing podcasts and started using that mental bandwidth instead of focusing on national media stories that I have zero influence over. Here's something that I can actually take action on. And so in mid 2015, I went part time and it just so happens that at   DoD is one of the few agencies in the in federal government where you can go part time and still keep your benefits. So I still had health insurance for my family. You know, most people don't have that option necessarily, but well, I did. So that's what I did. And, and, you know, that's, again, decided to decide to start building my my other streams of income outside of my W two.   (Jamie Bateman) (13:15.752) my circumstances been different if I was single, I probably would have just quit the whole thing, right? But I was able to have that kind of laddered approach, I guess, or tiered approach to kind of ripping off the bandaid.   Yeah, yeah, no, that's awesome. I love just the idea of taking ownership of your life, right? Like everybody has those moments where they're feeling sorry for themselves. But the successful people, they don't sit there and stay in that mindset. They move on. You're going to be there sometimes where you've got to get out of it. You got to say, OK, what can I control? What can I change? And you don't say you don't give other people the power to control.   you and your mindset and how you feel about your life. Right. Like that's that's that's the thing. Like if you you're constantly blaming someone else or saying this happened to me rather than what can I do to get myself out of it, then you're going to be stuck there forever. You're going to be absolutely going to be spinning your wheels forever. And a lot of that, I think, helps because you said you don't listen. You don't watch the news. I don't either. No, it's a waste of time. What control? What does that do for us? If I do watch it.   I literally do it for entertainment and you look at it as an entertain. I look at it like I'm watching. I look at it like this is funny. Like I can, you know what I mean? You kind of analyze it like, this is funny. This guy's saying this in a debate. Right. This guy's saying that it's not taking it as a news and this is how I should live my life because of what they're saying.   sports almost.   (Jamie Bateman) (14:43.341) Fact.   (Jamie Bateman) (14:48.078) Absolutely. And it's not to say that none of these topics are important, mean, global war, politics, poverty, global warming, whatever, it's all very important, but I have zero control over it, almost zero, right? And then the other thing is fear sells and that's what they're selling. And so it doesn't mean that every story is invented and it's all fake news, but it's   it just doesn't serve me. And so I'd rather focus on, you know, go ground up and kind of just, I see it in people, maybe older people in my own life now who maybe are retired and they watch the news all day. And it's like, they won't travel because they saw a news story that the airports are packed or something. And, you know, it's, I'm sure that story was, was accurate, right. But it, but the, but the news can filter out and you end up only focusing on   the negative really, and it just didn't serve me. yeah, during that lot, the second seven years, I was able to build out my wife and I were doing single family real estate investing and doing a lot of the BRRRR method that maybe some of your audience is familiar with. And so kind of putting that capital back into the rental property machine and expanding our portfolio. And then eventually last year, well, and   2018, made the pivot, I kept the rental properties, but made a pivot to also add on mortgage note investing. And that's been my primary focus as of late. And if you want, can tell the story quickly about how I actually quit my job in 2022. I think it's kind of a funny one.   Absolutely, let's do it.   (Jamie Bateman) (16:38.318) All right. So, I, so I, two years ago, I was playing badminton and, I'd been doing now, mind you, I used to be like tough, you know, athlete. And like I did, you know, did jujitsu for three years right up before this. And, know, I used to lift weights a lot and still do it here and there, but, you know, I think I'm tough. Right. And,   ruptured my Achilles playing badminton. So that's an ego blow to add on to the physical pain that you know, especially with the recovery. So rupture my Achilles a little over two years ago today and I was out of work, it was my right right foot. And the reason I bring this up is not for sympathy, but to say, you know, I couldn't drive for three months. So I actually, yeah, and I had tons of leave from from work and   By this time, I was tired, really tired of my, I was pretty much checked out. Like I think you, might've been at your, your big law job, but I was, I was checked out. mean, I wasn't the best employee at this point. And so I took as much leave as I, as I could, you know, reasonably right. And so, but couldn't drive. And so I was out for three months and I come back. So come back into work and I'd had discussions with my wife about, about leaving. was just a matter of, of when, not if.   That's right   (Jamie Bateman) (18:04.43) I can tell you truthfully, I had no idea that I was going to quit this day, but I came back in from having been out for three months. Mind you, no one gave me a call. No one from work, no one from my management gave me a call the entire three months I was out, other than to say, to ask me, are you vaccinated? Because you have to be vaccinated to be, to get inside the building. Now, I don't want this to turn into some controversial vaccine discussion.   or get your podcast banned from something but yes, I'd been vaccinated to answer the question. But no one asked me how's your how's your recovery going? Like how you what do you you know, how's your life? You know, what's it's just are you vaccinated, you need to get that shot before you come in? Okay, great. Thanks. I really feel welcome here. So I'm already just, you know, you know what, screw this place, right? Come back in and just   go to my desk, and this is this is an office space kind of thing where I go to my desk and there's some there's an Air Force kid at my desk and long story short, they kind of moved me somewhere else without telling me I can't find my desk, I finally find it, it's got a box with my name on it with, you know, monitors sideways and all and clearly not a functioning desk and, you know, office space. So I literally quit that day. And I just say that it's just like,   I knew 100 % I was done. My wife didn't know I quit, but I quit that day. Still worked for another month or two, but there was no question, zero question in my mind, I'm done with this place. So that was March of 2022. And ever since then, I've just focused on building out my businesses and having look back.   That's awesome. Sometimes you just know, right? Like sometimes it's done. You just knew. I love that story, man. For me, it was a little bit. You already know the story, but for me, it was a little bit more of someone else's decision. I got fired. mean, and you mentioned that, you you weren't the best employee at that point. Correct. I knew the same thing. And it's great to have awareness and perspective and kind of looking back now, you're like, I would have done the same thing. Like this guy doesn't want to be here.   (Seth Bradley) (20:21.292) His output isn't what it should be. Like, he's got to go. mean, he's not the best employee. And as a business owner now, I have really good perspective of that and seeing that. And they were doing me a favor by being like, hey, your heart's not in it, it? And I'm like, no, it's not.   It's not. Yeah. The reality is for me, it's really hard to work. know, once you go part time, I mean, I knew I was casting a vote against my career progression there. So as soon as I went part time in 2015, I wasn't saying I'm in this for the long haul guys. This is this is my focus. You know, it's the writing's somewhat on the wall. Looking back, it's almost surprising. I lasted as long as I did. But so, yeah, haven't looked back and just loved love the entrepreneurial   you know, day to day and freedom that you alluded to and just the multiple streams of income and certainly has its challenges. I probably work harder now than ever than I ever have. But it's by choice. So I love it.   Exactly. Same here, man. mean, it's, you my days are long. I mean, I get up way before I used to get up when I had a 95. I worked past when I would have worked a 95 and definitely more hours. But when you're doing it for yourself and you're doing it because you're working towards something that you believe in, it doesn't feel like you're putting that much time in.   Definitely. I wake up early. A lot of days not on purpose is because I'm just excited to get cracking.   (Seth Bradley) (21:55.886) So, yeah. absolutely. Yeah. Well, let's kind of get into your current business. I know you mentioned that you focused on your strengths and your assets. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's important. just say it's important to take an inventory of what your strengths are when you're kind of considering going into something else, because a lot of our listeners are attorneys, they're doctors, folks like that. They kind of feel like maybe they're pigeonholed, right? Like, well, if I'm not an attorney, what the hell else can I do?   Right. And like, I don't know anything about real estate investing or node investing or starting a business or anything like that. But if you really take a step back, you probably have a lot of skills that you've learned and honed in your career that you can use for something else moving forward. And that was that's what you were able to   to do. Definitely. And one thing I'd say is that, you know, one thing that's always comforting for me is nobody knows everything, right? So you can always find somebody who knows more than you in a certain area. You know, there's one quote about every man is my superior in something, right? So basically, it gives me a lot of comfort to know, like, just because an attorney listening to your show knows a   way more than I do about a particular topic and probably many, many other topics. That doesn't mean I'm less of a person or you know, I don't know more than that attorney does in another area. So it's okay, I'm never going to know everything. There are other people who've already figured it out. So you know, that's, that's always comforting to me is to when I say look to your strengths, it's also looking to the people in your network who know, it can help you get to where you want to go. So yeah, I mean,   So many things we take for granted that we do know. you know, example, when I started working at a title company, fresh out of college, because it was my first real job, and it paid, you know, a salary. I realized quickly how little I knew about title insurance settlements, you know, just just basic stuff. Now looking back, pretty basic stuff. But you don't know that unless you work for a title company, or you're heavily involved in this, you don't you're not.   (Jamie Bateman) (24:10.03) trained in that in school typically, right? So, you know, you forget and so your your listener out there, the attorney, the doctor, guarantee they have a lot of life experience, not just from their professional world, but just life experience that they shouldn't take for granted. And the fact that you can go through law school and then be, you know, be an effective attorney, or go through medical school and be an effective doctor, that that means you you can learn things, right? And so   Again, I'll go back to life as seasons. I mean, you've shown that in your own story, Seth, like, you know, it's a, doesn't mean just because I started a certain business doesn't mean that's going to be what I'm going to be doing for the next 20 years, or just because I'm an attorney now, it doesn't mean that's what I have to do for the rest of my life. So we always have options. mean, you might look back and wish you'd done something differently or something, but you only have one chance at this. And so,   you know, just make the most of it and just keep, think, keep learning constantly is critical. I just hired a business coach, we've had one call. But one of his mottos is, you know, one of his sayings is that he's always he's in permanent beta. So he's always changing, always improving, he's always growing. So I'm trying to trying to implement that as well.   (Seth Bradley) (25:40.64) the interruption, but we don't do ads. Instead, know that if you're raising capital for real estate, my law firm, RaiseLaw, is here to give you the expert legal guidance you need to raise capital compliantly and structure and close your deal. And if you're looking for a done-for-you fund-to-fund solution, Tribest is the industry's only all-in-one setup and fund administration solution. Visit Raise.Law and Tribest.com to learn more.   Yeah, I love that permanent beta. I haven't heard that before, but I like that. I like that phrase. like that phrase. So tell me about your current business. Tell me about MortgageNode Investing. Start with the basics. What is it?   Yeah, so and, and I'll try to keep it, there's so much to it. But again, none of it is difficult. It's just a lot of moving parts and you've got to, you know, takes time to learn. We buy debt, so we buy a mortgage note, and that could be performing or non performing. The real high level version is, is a performing note is kind of like a long term buy and hold rental property.   but you're buying the debt and becoming the lender, becoming the bank, if you will. And so you're buying that performing note for cashflow. So I buy a performing note, the borrower now pays me through a loan servicer and I get monthly payments. So that's a great way to go. The problem with that is you can't really add value to that asset very well. You're kind of, it is what it is. And in fact, with mortgage notes, the value actually goes down over time, generally speaking, because   principal balance goes down. So it's just, it's worth less than, you know, then, you know, then it would then it was when you bought it. Then on the other side, the non performing side of things, we buy those as well. And those are more like a fix and flip property. So although we're still buying the debt, we're not buying the property. But there's a chance to add value, there's an opportunity to buy distressed asset and add value to that asset and then sell that that non performing note, either well,   (Jamie Bateman) (27:49.826) I should say sell that asset, whether that's as a re performing note, or as through the the real estate itself, there are a few different ways you can exit a non performing note deal. And but, but back to your kind of one of the themes thus far, one of the reasons I got into specifically that space was that I understood the real estate space. So I understood the single family, residential real estate space. So it wasn't a huge leap for me to go from   owning the property to now owning the debt on that property. Whereas it would have been a lot bigger leap for me to say, I to start buying distressed, you know, multifamily debt, which I know you could probably help me understand better. But at that, you know, it's like, incremental progress and change isn't that scary. So I kind of expanded my, you know, toolbox, if you will.   and got into the mortgage note space. So we have a couple of note funds. One is open currently and they're all for accredited investors. the income fund that's open pays a monthly, aims to pay a monthly preferred return. I know you and a lot of your listeners are attorneys, so I gotta hold the line here. And...   So the fund is structured to pay, to aim to pay a monthly return of 8%. It's not a, there's no growth in that fund. It's literally a cashflow play and diversification play. You're putting your capital in. We buy assets across the country. We've bought notes in probably 25 states at this point. And so the investment is diversified across geographic areas, across borrower types.   And we buy for a certain yield, we take a small management fee, and then we ideally pay the preferred return that we're aiming for to our investors.   (Seth Bradley) (29:56.686) Yeah, nice. 506c, you're able to talk about it. It's a credit investors only. Just want to that out there. yeah, I mean, so just going back to the basics a little bit and we'll get back into the fun. Like, how do you, how do you even find these things? mean, yeah, that's, how do you get started? How do you find these things?   So I mean, that is an ongoing challenge. I'm not going to lie to you. That's one of the things that truthfully a passive investor who doesn't have time to develop the network to go find these assets, they're just not going to have success. They might here and there, but it takes time. It's a word of mouth industry, just like real estate itself is. so we've built out a network of sellers and that could be   quite honestly, I've never had luck buying directly from banks. It's really either a larger Mortgage Note fund that's closing. So it might be a three year fund and then they've got to, they've got to liquidate, they've got to figure out how to sell off what to do with these assets. And so that's a great opportunity to buy is just a fund that's closing or somebody a note investor who's getting out of note investing or they've had a life change or something, you know, where   they just, there's an opportunity to buy from them as well. And so there are other, you know, I guess we buy from hedge funds, note investors, other note funds. There are also note brokers as well out there. There are also some online exchanges like paper stack and a couple of others that you can go and I've bought and sold on paper stack and other exchanges as well.   And you can find assets there. But at the end of the day, have our list of people that we work with regularly. And I would say one thing is that doing due diligence on a note seller is just as important as due diligence on the assets that they're selling. And so it's taken some work and it's a work in progress always. But it is the million dollar question is where do find these assets?   (Seth Bradley) (32:12.598) Yeah. So that's the hard part, right? Finding these assets is the hard part. Have you ever had to foreclose on any of these notes and actually acquire the property? And I guess a follow-up question is, do you ever look at a non-performing note like, hey, I actually want to own that property?   So, great questions. Yeah, great questions. To be clear, we're not trying to kick people, you know, grandma out on onto the street or anything like that. You know, that's not our goal typically. Well, that's never our goal. But we're never trying to kick someone out of their home. But the reality is, some people honestly need a little bit of a kick in the pants. And oftentimes, that's not really the best them staying in the house is not often   the best scenario for them. know that might sound harsh, but at end of the day, if someone can't afford to live somewhere, sometimes these people are living in squalor and they really need a change of environment. To answer your question about do we target the property? Yes, sometimes we do. In fact, we just closed on to, they're called heckum loans or reverse mortgages, where the borrowers are deceased. The property is underwater, meaning, you know,   the loan amount is higher, than the property value. And it should be a quick exit through the property. So HUD will sell off these big pools of reverse mortgages. And we were able to purchase two of them very recently. It's a vacant property, you're not doing an eviction, borrower is deceased, you've got to work through the heirs or foreclosure and exit the property that way.   If your listener wants to go to my website, I've got a really good Jacksonville blog post, I've got a couple of blog posts about this deal. I still hold this rental today. And it was a non performing note that we purchased a few years ago. And I had no intention of exiting through the property or holding, holding the property as a rental property, but running the numbers, it just was too good to, to let go. so long story, but we, we   (Jamie Bateman) (34:22.51) ended up doing a deed in lieu of foreclosure actually in this case and got the property back and now it's a long-term buy and hold property for my own rental portfolio.   Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. There's always multiple ways to look at an investment, right? But it does sound, you know, it's not something that I've executed on myself, but it sounds like this is an active business, right? And that's why you've put together an income fund for people that want to get involved passively. as everybody knows, there's active investments, there's passive investments. If you're to do something active.   Maybe your returns are going to be a little bit better, but you're going to give up a lot of time and effort to get those returns. So if you want to go the passive side, if you're still full-time in your career, you're a full-time doctor or lawyer or whatever you are, these passive investments are the way to go without having to know every single detail about a new business.   Yeah, and I don't know if you can see this, but I wear this specifically for your for this   There it is. There it is.   (Jamie Bateman) (35:29.272) Passive income. You're absolutely right. You know, these gurus, some of the some of the note investing gurus out there will try to sell, you know, notes as passive. We have another blog post that talks about just the it's a spectrum, there's active and passive on either end. But at end of the day, if you're going to note investing in my world is very, very active. And we have a non performing note fund that's considerably more active than the performing note fund. So   You're dealing with foreclosures, bankruptcies, deed and loo, tracking delinquent property taxes. Do I have to physically go anywhere? No, but it is not passive. But that's why we offer the passive investment for people who, like you said, have maybe more capital than time or energy, and they want to put that capital to work.   That's right. There are certain gurus out there that, know, whatever it is that they are pitching, they tend to always pitch it as passive, even though it is an active business, that's money. Whether that's a mortgage note or I mean, people will pitch Airbnb short term rentals as passive. They're like, well, you can delegate this and you can, you know, you can automate that and there's software for all these things. But you still got to put all that stuff together.   Mm-mm.   (Seth Bradley) (36:48.396) You've still got to monitor all those things. still got to oversee all these different aspects of a business. And that's what it is. It's a business that you're running and it's not passive. Like, it's not, it's not. And it is on a spectrum. Some things are more passive than others, but when you're investing in, you know, as a passive investor into some sort of a fund or syndication, that's really leaning really far into the passive side.   Absolutely, 100%. And I'm, as you are, Seth, I'm, I assume you are, I know you're an active investor, but I do have passive investments myself in other, other funds, other note funds, and, and my own, my own note funds as well. And so nothing wrong with doing both, but I would say you need to be careful about, you know, you got to make a decision at some point, do you want to scale this thing and make this really a business? Or do you do you are you satisfied with?   potentially a little bit lower return and you are giving up some control but much, you know, much fewer headaches and just a lot less work.   Right. Yeah. And a lot of, you know, lot of the listeners are high income earning professionals. So they've already dedicated, put a lot of time and effort into being able to earn this much money from their W2. And that's probably your best bet, to be honest with you. I've been there. I was in those shoes. You're probably better off putting your head down and like, let's grind for a few years. Let's not spend every single dollar that we make on all the new stuff on a new car every two years or every year.   in a bigger house that you don't need. Like, let's set aside some of that and invest it passively. And then maybe one of those will stick. Maybe one of those passive investments will be a mortgage no fund where you're like, man, I kind of like this business. I like the sound of it. I've learned about it. And then you start maybe progressing on the active side and maybe that takes over. And you want to get into that as a business, as an entrepreneur. But a great way to kind of dip your toe in the water is to become a passive investor. That's the way that I did it in the,   (Seth Bradley) (38:53.186) multifamily syndications. invested passively in a number of deals first and kind of learned about it, learned the ropes and I'm like, I can do this. And then that's when I made the transition.   Yeah, definitely. It really comes down to what your goals are and what your situation is, for sure. I'll say I was too passive initially when I went into notes, because personally, just don't... You were probably a little better student, Seth. Not that I was a bad student, I invest... Unless I'm actively investing, I'm just not going to learn a lot. So the reality is, yeah, it's fine to learn about the asset class. You definitely should learn about the operator for sure.   you're putting capital with them, but you're not going to once you're getting your checks and your disbursements, you're not going to probably learn a whole lot about how to do that on the active side. And so that's what we're here for.   Yeah, yeah, it's more of like a spark of an interest, right? Like maybe you already have that spark and then you invest passively. Then you're like, OK, well, now I'm invested. Like, let me learn about this. And you have to have to actively go out there and educate yourself and network and talk to people that are in the business.   Definitely, 100%.   (Seth Bradley) (40:01.71) Alright man, before we jump into the Freedom Four, you have one last golden nugget for our listeners.   Oh, I would say within when it comes to investing, you know, take the long term view. Don't chase immediate returns. You know, I do think just, yeah, it's certainly we all want to make a million dollars tomorrow. But I think it's it's a play the long game when it comes to investing. I think that's critical.   Love that man. All right, let's jump into the freedom form. What's the best thing you do to keep your mind and body healthy?   Yeah, I mean, one thing that I instituted this year, actually, is breathwork. And it's, you know, it's so it takes 10 minutes. And per day for me, at least. And it's been phenomenal. And it's something that quite honestly, as a, as a, you know, athlete back in the day, or even in the military, I would have scoffed at something like this, to be honest with you, because it's just, you know, it's not manly or whatever. And it's like, it is phenomenal. So breathwork,   I mean, I do other things for sure. But that's certainly this year, it's been a game changer for me. I just feel like it resets my central nervous system. It just gets me focused. And I know there are other physiological benefits that you can ask Dr. Andrew Huberman or somebody else about.   (Seth Bradley) (41:26.153) Cool. I'll have to look into that. actually have it. mean, obviously everybody talks about it's a hot topic. Yeah. I haven't gotten into it. I haven't gotten into that plus like the cold plunges and that sort of thing. Yeah. But I really want to want to   So I don't know how much you can cut this out if we don't have time, but I had a, I'm just going to be, be open about this. I just had a, you know, in late December, I got a viral infection, like a neurovirus. And then I had, I had a, what I think was a pretty severe panic attack and it was super scary. And so that's why I started doing this. And somebody on my team actually sent me a, I guess we'll call it an implement or a tool that   I use for the breath work. It's blue. There's a Bluetooth connection to your phone and it's pretty cool. So it's structured and back to that discipline, right? But yeah, so it's, there was a reason I started doing it and it's, it's so accessible in five to 10 minutes a day. You can start doing it. So I recommend. Cool.   Thanks for sharing that man. With all your success, what is one limiting belief that you've crushed along the way and how did you get past it?   I think just, you know, being afraid to, you know, that you have to be perfect, right? So I used to be an editor back in the day. And so many things would just not get done or not get completed within our team, our organization, because it had to be perfect. And it's like, I think as I've progressed into more of the entrepreneurial lifestyle and   (Jamie Bateman) (43:02.35) is just it's not a it's not an option anymore. So yeah, I think just taking action has kind of overcome that limiting belief of chasing perfection.   Yeah, I can agree with you there. Done not perfect. Yes. My background as an attorney, mean, we're paid to be perfect. We can't make mistakes, especially in contracts and the way that we write things. But when you make that transition over to being an entrepreneur, there's too much to do to be perfect. You just got to get it done. Good enough.   Absolutely. Good enough. You have to be willing to accept that for sure.   What's one actionable step our listeners can do right now to start creating more freedom?   I'll use the military here, which is where I learned kind of reverse backwards planning, reverse planning. literally just, and I'm not going to tell you I'm perfect at this, but, you know, think about what, create a vivid vision for your life in the next three to five years, pick it, pick three years out from today. And what do you want your life to look like? And then backwards plan. And now I'm not saying you need to plan every minute of every day, but   (Jamie Bateman) (44:20.876) you can be that will that will increase the urgency, sense of urgency in your life and the intentionality of every every hour and every day because you realize this is doable, but I got to take ownership of my current situation if I want this to be the reality in three years. So I would say, create a vivid vision and and kind of reverse or backwards plan to get there.   Perfect, perfect. Last but not least, House Passive Income made your life better.   Yeah, I mean, I think in multiple ways, but a big one that stands out is giving me, I guess we'll call it margin to take some more risks on the entrepreneurial side. And because I do have alternative sources of income, passive income, it's allowed me that kind of mental and financial bandwidth or margin to maybe invest in a company that even if it   doesn't go perfectly, or doesn't go well, it's not profitable, that's okay. I still have that cushion for me and my family. that's, yeah, it's a huge, it's been a huge factor in that regard.   Yeah, absolutely. Game changer, man. It just changes your mindset, changes your life in so many ways. Jamie, this has been incredible, dude. You've got so much great content to share in your brain, man. You got to get out there. know you've got an awesome podcast that I was on, Adversity to Abundance. Everybody should check that out. Other than that, Jamie, where else can people find out more about you? Yeah.   (Jamie Bateman) (45:54.924) Just two things I'll mention very quickly. Literally got my book delivered today, like an hour before I hopped on here. It's from adversity to abundance. It is based on the podcast. So I encourage your listener to check that out from adversity to abundance is the book that's out. then labradorlending.com, L A B R A D O R.com is where you can check us out.   All right, man. Awesome. I'll drop all that in the show notes. Thanks again for coming on, brother.   Thanks for having me, Seth. This has been great.   (Seth Bradley) (46:26.978) Thanks for tuning in to Raise the Bar Radio. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Keep pushing, keep building, and keep raising the bar. Until next time, enjoy the journey. Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en Jamie Bateman's Links: https://x.com/batemanjames https://www.facebook.com/batemanjames https://www.threads.com/@batemanjames11?xmt=AQF0nwaIL6JD_GK94lbTvHphHOmWwlUyt3TkeHLav-vXU_E https://www.instagram.com/batemanjames11/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-bateman-5359a811/ https://labradorlending.com/about/ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-adversity-to-abundance/id1618672867 https://open.spotify.com/show/7JjGWsKVzzEI8UwXP9GONZ https://www.youtube.com/@FromAdversity2AbundancePodcast

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