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You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you'll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.

In this conversation, Kiara Loucks shares her profound experiences during a health crisis that taught her the significance of community and support. She reflects on a moment of vulnerability when she had to rely on her husband for help and the intimate experience they shared before her surgery. Kiara emphasizes the importance of allowing others to be there for us in times of need and how such situations can strengthen relationships and foster personal growth. Outdoor retreats: heroutdorjourney.com Kiara on Instagram @kiara.loucks Takeaways Other people need to be in our lives sometimes. Facing health crises can reveal the strength of our relationships. Intimacy can be found in shared vulnerable moments. It’s okay to lean on others during tough times. Support from loved ones can be a source of strength. Crisis situations can deepen our connections with others. Prayer and faith can provide comfort in uncertainty. Allowing help can be a sign of strength, not weakness. People often want to step up and help when we need it. Vulnerability can lead to personal growth and understanding. Disclaimer: Links may contain affiliate links, which means we may get paid a commission at no additional cost to you if you purchase through this page. Read our full disclosure here. Watch on YouTube Show Transcript Cheryl McColgan (00:00)Hey everyone, I’m Cheryl McColgan, founder of Carol Nourish Grow, and today I’m joined by Kiara Lux. Kiara and I met this year when I competed in the fit model competition in Kentucky and she had the same coach that I did and ended up doing the same show. And I just immediately loved this woman. So what I learned. about her journey and her health stuff I had to have her on. anyway, Kiara, welcome. If you could ⁓ just tell everyone a little bit about who you are and then we’ll get into some of your health journey. Because I think it’s really interesting and I think there’s a lot of things there that will help a lot of people. Kiara Loucks (00:35)Absolutely. First off, thank you so much for having me. I’m so honored to be here. My take on our meeting is very similar. I just fell in love with you from the second you texted me asking if I wanted sourdough. We had never met. You brought me sourdough. I was like, I don’t know her, but I love her. So yeah, I’ve had quite a wild journey. Health and fitness have been at the center of my journey. Cheryl McColgan (00:43)you Kiara Loucks (00:57)Really since I was young, I’ve been an athlete my whole life in different sports that have taken me all over the world and brought wonderful people like yourself into my life. Outside of professional athletics, I work in tech on my, like my nine to five, I work on Wall Street in paid media. And then I actually am now running an organization on the other side of that. with all of the spare time called her outdoor journey, which is really focused on bridging the gap for women and families in the back country. So whether it’s survival, holistic wellness, it’s really this concept of community and education to get women and families outside, which is now actually evolving into co-ed opportunities. So in a very, very high level nutshell, that is me. My fitness journey was, I’m sure we’ll dive into it, but. I don’t think you knew this, but I’m actually over 100 pounds down from my heaviest, so that was 11 years ago. Just, think, like most people, kind of gave up and had always wanted to compete, but it was a pipe dream that never had any real legs to it until it did. So really excited to dive in with you, and I’m just excited to be able to chat with you. You’re one of my favorite people. Cheryl McColgan (02:04)I know it’s been I wanted to catch up for so long. And we just like you’ve been traveling so much and doing really exciting work with the project that you mentioned, and we’ll get into that. But before we go into all that, and we go into the weight loss thing, because that is definitely a subject that people are on this podcast are interested in. But I have to have you tell people, you to kind of just glossed over that whole professional athlete thing, tell people what you what your sport is, because I think it’s so wild. Kiara Loucks (02:07)I know. Yeah, so I’m kind of in this purgatory season right now, so not actually professionally competing in anything, but I’ve been a professional rower. I’ve been a professional bobsledder for the US and Canada. I’ve been a bodybuilder, Olympic weightlifter. We’ve been all over the map. Yeah, and I’m kind of getting back into the endurance side of things right now. I’m not done with bodybuilding or Cheryl McColgan (02:43)That’s the one. Kiara Loucks (02:54)Bodybuilding isn’t done with me yet, but we’re on a little hiatus. As you know, it kind of takes over your whole life. And I’ve lived a season for the last decade where sports is my whole life. So I’m kind of just turning my brain on for a little bit and creating and doing other things. Cheryl McColgan (03:08)Yeah, and I think that’s, it’s an interesting mindset being an athlete for most of your whole life. So you said though, at some point you kind of gave up, can you share a little bit more about that? Was there an injury? Was there something that happened in your life where things just shifted for you? And how did that go? And then how did you get back to where you are now? Kiara Loucks (03:19)Thank you. Yeah, great question. You seem like the type that’s okay to go kind of deep and heavy off the rip because that’s just life. So I had actually signed a scholarship agreement with UC Santa Barbara to play softball ⁓ once I graduated high school. And my senior year in high school, I both broke my back quite literally to vertebrae on my back in a terrible sledding accident. And then I also endured a sexual assault. So I was raped my senior year in high school. And those two, I think combined, just put me in a place I didn’t know how to cope. And so I learned growing up that food is comfort. And when we hurt, we self-soothe. And I didn’t have the tools in my toolkit to do that in a healthy way. So I started partying a lot, started eating a lot. And honestly, by the grace of God, I walked onto campus to try to rush for a sorority. I missed. I missed rush, but I had walked by the rowing recruiter tent. And some young gal shouted at me. She was like, Hey, you have really big legs. Would you want to row? And I was like, simultaneously so offended and so flattered. I was like, let’s try it. And that opened this new avenue we’ve been on for the last decade. But prior to that, I just like, like I said, I had given up and food was really my reprieve. from life. Cheryl McColgan (04:47)And I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that. And I’m so sorry that you had to go through that experience. Although often some of the great tragedies in our life really end up shaping who we are. And I think that that is definitely one of the reasons that’s contributed to you, you know, being so successful and being able to overcome all that. So, but anyway, definitely a heavy subject and thank you for being willing to share that with people. So after all that happened, you wrote in college and then let’s fast forward to like just Kiara Loucks (04:59)Delicious. Agreed. Mm-hmm. Cheryl McColgan (05:16)before we met because you had some pretty crazy health things and things happening in your life right before you decided to compete. So I’d love it if you’d kind of share that journey. Kiara Loucks (05:27)Yeah, so like I alluded to bodybuilding was a dream of mine for the last 12 years like I saw someone do it and thought it was the coolest thing and Never thought it was a realistic opportunity for me and then fast-forward lots of things changed and Decided actually a year ago that I was gonna get into bodybuilding and got into it locally it went swimmingly like I just Found a lot of success very quickly But in an extremely unhealthy way working with a coach which bodybuilding is wrought with coaches who went pro and then think that they have the license to dictate someone else’s health. So went down that rabbit hole came out of we did four shows back to back to back to back. We blitzed last fall and did really well coming into the offseason after my last show in November of last year. Cheryl McColgan (06:12)a lot. Kiara Loucks (06:20)I was following my reverse diet to a T and was putting on weight extremely rapidly and Not only was it a mental Battle it was also physically feeling out of control of my body and on top of that I started bleeding Like non-stop started presenting pregnancy symptoms had no idea what was happening in my body had just kind of taken on its own life And so it was controlling all that I could At first they thought I had cervical cancer and so we went kind of through some rounds of testing for that and then coming back in January This was like a three-month saga coming back in January found out I was pregnant and Then they thought I was having a miscarriage because I was bleeding the entire time. So I was extremely anemic I was just exhausted. I couldn’t really do much and I Would not give up training like that was the only thing I really had was just training and trying to be present for the holidays and so After they thought I had a miscarriage, my HCG levels, which are the hormones present when you are pregnant, were actually going back up. And so it was end of January, or this year, that they found out I had an egg-topic pregnancy growing in my left ovary. And we were early enough that they had attempted to treat it with chemotherapy. So methotrexate is a chemotherapy procedure that they typically will try. before they go to surgery as an intervention in order to try to get the cells to kind of reabsorb into the body. It stops everything from turning over, which my goober brain decided to still train, still try to move through all of it, even if that was just walking on the treadmill for most days. So was extremely humbling. But through that, I had one round of chemo, which was just hell for lack of a better term. and then it ended up rupturing anyway. So by rupture, I mean I was internally bleeding, had come up with a fever in the midst of all of the chemo symptoms. So for those out there who are not privy to what that looks like, your body feels like it’s on fire. I couldn’t smile, I couldn’t chew, I couldn’t laugh, I couldn’t cry. Everything from my head to my neck to my back would just seize. And so in the midst of that, I popped a fever. We went in and as we were walking into the ER, I was rupturing. And so they opened the OR middle of the night and had a surgical intervention for that. And then me being me, I needed something on the calendar. Maybe not the best way to cope, we’re learning, but I’ve always been someone that when I have something to shoot for, the in-between between here and there doesn’t really matter. We have a goal, we’re working towards something, we’re progressing, we’re… Controlling our environment for lack of better term as well. So put a show on the calendar and decided to find a new coach because like I mentioned, my previous coach was not health conscious at all. And so I found Adam who’s just a godsend and was able to actually reverse some of my endometriosis symptoms, certain things through protocol with supplementation and food. It was a miracle and we started prep while I still had chemo in my system. We were like hitting the ground running, let’s go. And that was beginning of February, March timeframe. And then we walked into the show that you and I met at, which was in Louisville. went well, not as well as I’d hoped, but it’s okay. It was still a blast and I met you. And then we did two shows right after that in Las Vegas and then in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So. Cheryl McColgan (09:57)and she’s leaving out that she won one of those shows, which I was not surprised because seeing you in person and now knowing everything that you went through leading up to that, mean, the amount of muscle that you have. Kiara Loucks (09:59)We did bring home Miss Nevada this year. I was very excited about that. Cheryl McColgan (10:17)is a testament to, I think something that people kind of lose sight of sometimes is that your muscle is a metabolic sink for a lot of things that it helps control your blood sugar. helps. It helps you survive times like what you went through. And I’m convinced that’s one reason my dad did so well with his cancer treatments over the years is because he was always really muscular. He was like Jack Lillane, basically my dad, he was like into that way before anyone else. So he’s never like huge, but he always was very concerned. He always lifted. And so I would say, you know, do you feel like both your mentality as someone that was into fitness helped you as well as the fact that you were already in such good shape to start with? Because I think you just, the outcomes are so much better if you have some muscle. Kiara Loucks (10:59)Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think twofold. The physical side of it, there’s research to support that muscle mass is an indicator of longevity and it’s also the best way to push off atrophy in the body as we age. So knowing that no matter what sport you’re doing, having lean muscle mass is going to always be a benefit. That’s kind of the first part and it allows your body to bounce back really quickly. Like you’re a lot more resistant to… whatever life throws at you, whether it’s disease or acute injury. And so that’s kind of the first side. And then the second side is the mental side. So when I, know, as someone who’s been an athlete my whole life was told I can’t do anything, let alone like I can’t even walk on a treadmill. Mentally, I just crumbled. But then you realize and you’ll get this too, no matter what sport you do, or just lifting in general for people that just go to the gym to stay healthy. It’s not easy and it hurts. Like you are training your body to deal with things that hurt knowing full well that you’re going to be better for it. And I think that was the privilege walking into my health situation last year was that mentality that I’m going to make it through this. It sucks and it really hurts. It’s not going to last forever. I guarantee it. And I’m going to be better on the other side of it, whether that’s mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or all of the above. We’re going to be OK. Cheryl McColgan (12:26)And how so how did you get from the point? Where I mean, to me, like putting something like that on the books is just. unbelievable. And then to see the shape that you showed up in, I mean, it was just unbelievable. So can you talk about your mental state during that time a little bit? Because I think there’s, you know, whether people are an athlete or not, I think there’s always something to be learned with mindset. And I think the more that you can share about maybe that part of that and how you, you know, seemingly made it through to the other side. I mean, nobody’s saying everything’s perfect all the time, but you still move through Kiara Loucks (12:39)Thank you. Thank you. Cheryl McColgan (13:04)life, you created these amazing goals, you are still working all this time. Talk a little bit about your mindset and how you, how do you overcome that hurdle like once you were on the chemo and doing all this really crazy health stuff. Kiara Loucks (13:17)That is such a good question. Yeah, I think when life really kicks her teeth in, it’s usually there to teach us something. And I hate to be the person that’s like, it always happens for a reason, because it doesn’t always. But being able to take a really poopy situation and make meaning of it and find that meaning while you’re walking through it is really the best way to endure it. So for me, I’ve always been an incredibly independent woman. I don’t need anyone. I don’t need help. and I never ask for help. And so my husband had just gotten out of the army. So we’re actually one year free as of two days ago on Veterans Day. And when he came back, we actually had a really hard time because I had kind of established this life where he was more of an accessory than a need. And I didn’t have an issue with that. In fact, when he got home, I reminded him that I didn’t need him. I want him. And know, like all of these pieces that I think the intention was pure, but this chapter, the health chapter we’re talking about really taught me that other people need to be needed in our lives sometimes. And allowing space for that, I didn’t have an option. So there was literally a week where my husband had to help me go to the bathroom. And I still remember when we were in the OR. We didn’t know we were going to go into surgery when we went into the ER and they basically threw a pack of ammonia wipes at us as they’re opening the OR because it was like you can die relatively quickly from internal bleeding. And so they threw this bag of ammonia wipes at us and it was such an intimate moment where they were like, all right, wipe yourself down like we’re going to go open the OR. We’ll be back. And my husband and I both took a wipe and we just started cleaning things off. like prepping for surgery. And I’m standing there like, I know you’re not a believer, but I’m just gonna pray over us and the situation and where we’re going. And that whole evolution taught me it’s okay to need other people. And people in our lives are often eager for those situations where they can step up for us when we’re the ones typically stepping up for everyone else. So mentally, it allowed a lot of intimate. relationships to just flourish in my life, both my husband, my family, who all stepped in for me. And through that, it was like this mental battle to be okay not being okay on a daily basis. And then as we put the show on the calendar, things are kind of turning around, things are getting better. Then it became this super cool ethos of Everyone’s gonna hear the high school musical theme. We’re all in it together. Like it was cool that we were all in the trenches together like great We all watched movies together. Everyone helped me. It was fantastic But now we’re on the come-up together and realizing how rich that come-up was with everyone in tow And so my husband was there in Louisville. He was there in Chattanooga for Nationals Like he’s texting me constantly when I’m at shows and he’s not there Cheryl McColgan (15:58)you Kiara Loucks (16:22)It brought us so much closer together and it made me realize that win, lose or draw, I’m a better person for being in this with the people that I love building something that’s inspirational for other people. Like the number of messages I had of people who, from people who had watched the whole health journey into the prep, into the shows, into doing very well in the shows, who reached out and said like, holy shit, I’m going to get off the couch and I’m going to do this because if you can do this, like I can do that. And so it’s realizing mentally, we don’t live for ourselves. Like the fullest life we can possibly aim to live is that for others. And bodybuilding is an incredibly selfish sport, but this whole evolution turned it around into this is for my family, this is with my family, this is for other people. And I will be extremely transparent about all of the highs and the lows and everything in between. So I don’t know if that answered your question, but yeah, it was a really cool turning point for me that has. completely transcended bodybuilding into my career, into my hobbies, into my passion projects on the side. So it’s been really cool. Cheryl McColgan (17:28)Yeah, and it’s been it’s been so fun to watch as people on the outside, like you said, you had so many people rooting for you and just following along with your journey. And, you know, I guess part of our time together was like we were at the show doing this and we were in separate divisions. And so we kind of had to stick to, I guess, you know, I don’t want to say surface level conversations, but we didn’t get a chance to really dive deep into some of this stuff. So it wasn’t until later afterwards where I was watching, you know, some of your Instagram stories and Kiara Loucks (17:42)Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cheryl McColgan (17:58)of the comments that people were making about your health journey and all this stuff that I really was able to see, you know, just how much you would come through. so hearing this today kind of like puts all the pieces together and just makes the whole thing even just more amazing. And I think it’s really exciting now what you’re kind of turning that into because I have a feeling that all of this And you know, just recovering after a show people that haven’t done it. It’s, know, bodybuilding is not a healthy thing. Let’s be real lifting weights is healthy, but bodybuilding is a very extreme sport. You’re getting to an extreme level of leanness, which especially for women is really hard, like on your hormones on your body, everything. And, you know, I’ve certainly experienced that. I don’t know, aftermath, for lack of a better word. ⁓ Kiara Loucks (18:27)No. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Cheryl McColgan (18:49)And it’s just a very interesting mental challenge afterwards as well as physical. And ⁓ so it wasn’t surprising to me that I saw after your show, you kind of turned to ⁓ this retreat that you ended up going on. so now I would love it if you’d share about that. Like what made you become aware of that? And is my sense right that you kind of just needed some like recharge alone time? I’d to hear just all about that, how that happened. Kiara Loucks (18:54)⁓ Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love this. It’s like the most exciting thing in my life right now. So 100 % you’re correct. Once the show season was over, I just realized how much of my time had been spent in the gym, working, and then being a wife, being in the family. Like it’s just every day just trying to go. And one of my favorite things is spending time outside. Like I firmly believe that it is the closest place to the divine. It makes me happy. It gives me clarity. Like it is my favorite place to be. I live in Colorado. So I realized like a year went by that I hadn’t gone just to play outside with my dog. Like, okay, like I just need to get outside more. And I was feeling this void, which did you feel after the show too? It’s like this depression a little bit. Cheryl McColgan (19:45)Love it. a little bit. It’s kind of a, you know, I wish I would have done a better job documenting some of that stuff I kept meaning to, because it is just kind of a wild thing. But it never I guess, for part of it for me is because Kiara Loucks (20:11)Mm-hmm. Cheryl McColgan (20:16)I always knew that I would, you know, I’m still working, going to the gym five days a week and still just really trying to build my lean muscle for the purposes we were talking about, just making sure that I stay as healthy as possible for as long as possible and that I can lift myself off the toilet when I’m 80 years old and things like that, you know, if I’m lucky enough to make it to that age. ⁓ Kiara Loucks (20:30)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Cheryl McColgan (20:39)So I guess in the back of my mind, it was like, well, this was an interesting process and stuff, but I was anxious to kind of get back to quote unquote normal life. Like what you’re talking about, like more time to spend time outdoors and more time to enjoy food and drinks with friends and not have to be so focused on every single bite you’re putting in your mouth. I don’t know, somehow I kind of, feel like I distracted myself from a little bit of that, but I… Kiara Loucks (20:48)normal yeah Exactly. Cheryl McColgan (21:06)I’ve read a lot of and heard a lot of other people’s stories that talk about that because this almost like well you you had these goals, the goal you got there basically. And then what you kind of go off the cliff, right? Yeah, I don’t know. I avoided that a little bit. I don’t know that sure how Kiara Loucks (21:15)Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so perfect. You know, I’m thrilled for you. did not. I just, I don’t know. Like I think if I had a body that could sustain it, which I don’t think anybody’s meant for it, I would compete all year long every year. Like I just love it so much. But when we finished nationals in Chattanooga, I just knew my body was asking for a break. Like there were just several signs that I needed to pump the, pump the breaks and chill. And so coming out of that, I realized I needed to be outside more and I just felt this void like. this one thing I’d been working for and felt meaning in, all these people invested in my story, it just was suddenly gone. And so I’m like, okay, I just need to go outside. And I had a dear girlfriend of mine actually come out and we went up to a cabin in the mountains and we were chatting and it like, I just don’t know what I’m chasing after. Like I always have something I’m chasing after and I feel like I’m missing it. And she was like, well, Kiara, you’ve been chasing outside. Like since you finished competing, all you’ve done is chase the mountains. And I’m like, well, no, no, no, like that’s just a medium. That’s a catalyst for me to find clarity. That’s not what I’m chasing. Yeah, that’s ridiculous. And sure enough, it is what I was chasing. And for the last several years, I’ve had on my vision board wanting to start a business to allow space and build a community for women to get out into the back country together. Because like all of the same things that you and I probably took away from bodybuilding, the confidence, the discipline, the community aspect, if you’re fortunate to have that, like Those are all things that I’ve found historically in the outdoors, but I think the value of the outdoors far outlasts and has much deeper lengths to it than bodybuilding. And so it’s been on my vision board for years to start a business that I can just take women outdoors and on these retreats and do cool things. And it was just another pipe dream, right? But God bless vision boards and always coming back to like ourselves and where we find meaning and purpose. And so just by happenstance, this opportunity dropped into my lap in August. So my last show of the year was middle of June, went outside a bunch, kind of just got my head screwed on a little bit for the rest of June and July. And then this opportunity dropped in my lap to go to Montana with a group called Her Outdoor Journey in August. And it was gonna be their summit, which means they were doing everything from Butchery to survival to fieldcraft to foraging to defensive shooting to Glassing which is basically understanding how to scope the side of a hill and look for animals They were doing all of this in one event. I was like alright cool I will help you guys out in trade just to go check this out because it seems kind of rad and I on a whim didn’t know anyone got in the car drove up to Montana like 12 hours And I show up and this week completely changed my life. mean, I’ve never been around a group of 20 plus women and there’s no drama, no clicks, people wanting to help, people wanting to serve, everyone having a blast. Like, and not only that, it was the skill sets that we were handed, like the education and the content. was like, I need more of this and I need to share this with as many people as I can. Like, how can I get more in the weeds on this? So I sat down with Courtney Pridi, who is the founder of her outdoor journey. And we just kind of started dreaming up how we could work together and she needed me. I needed her. Like it was this extremely serendipitous, miraculous meeting of two people who desperately needed each other. And her and I since then have walked hand in hand, just blowing the lid off of this thing. So we have like over 15 events next year, all across the continental US, Alaska and Hawaii. We’re also looking at Canada. But our mission really is to teach and empower women and get them outside. And it’s like this beautiful thing that happens when you’re learning and you’re vulnerable, when you’re outside, like all of these perfect elements that bring out the most beautiful side of people. And that’s the part that I love is nurturing these women, these people, these families, seeing how we can impact as many women and families as we can. So. Yeah, long story short, it has been the coolest thing I have found and I also fell in love with butchery out of that. So have kind of been on this whirlwind of working with feedlots and local ranchers and processing plants, understanding truly what is it that we’re eating. So going back to health and wellness, we just talked about bodybuilding is not a healthy sport. And so when you’re given a certain set macros for the day, you’ll eat trash as long as it fills those macros and you’re enjoying it. When Cheryl McColgan (26:02)Thank Kiara Loucks (26:04)Much like you, I got into this because I fell in love with taking care of myself. And so I had completely gone off path. And when I found this, it was like, ⁓ I can literally make an entire meal for me and my family off of literally just what exists out here in the back country. Understanding the seasonings, the foods that we are given naturally growing in the mountains or wherever. What Google reactions. ⁓ she is. But yeah, ⁓ so it’s just Cheryl McColgan (26:31)you Kiara Loucks (26:33)this really cool journey that’s now evolved into the butchery side of things and long tail like I would love one day to open my own high end butcher shop and do high end steak dinners for people that they get to pick right out of the case supporting local agriculture, which is a dying breed in our country right now. So bringing awareness to those things, bringing people along for the ride. I have no idea what we’re going to do with all of this, but I’m just so happy. Like I’m just right where I feel like I need to be. Cheryl McColgan (27:02)Yeah, watching some of your stories when you were on that retreat, I felt the same way. I was just so happy for you because I could just tell you were enjoying it so much and you’re in your element. And it did not surprise me afterwards that you’re like, I’m going to be a butcher. I mean, you’re crazy. I’ll get on to something. I’m just like, Oh, well, this is now this is my thing, you know, which is amazing. So so people are hearing this and they’re like, Okay, that sounds really cool. I would love to, you know, spend some time with other women out Kiara Loucks (27:10)Hmm. No! Yeah, exactly. Okay. Cheryl McColgan (27:31)doors, do all the things. And also though, I can see how maybe some people like there probably will be some people to be like, okay, I like a lot of that, but I’m not into the hunting or I like a lot of that, but I don’t know that I want to chop up a deer and skin a deer on this retreat. Tell us how that works. Kiara Loucks (27:40)What? yeah, very fair. Not expected, not expected at all. So we actually offer a whole host of opportunities for people to get on trips with us. One of the events I’m looking forward to the most is actually an adventure retreat up in Alaska. So we are literally gonna go jet ski in the glacier, ride horses, ATV, spa day. Like it is an adventure retreat. There is no hunting, there are no guns. There’s no butchery. There’s no nothing that should really kind of raise flags for some people. Knowing that, everyone has different thresholds. So if you come on any of our trips and you’re like, this part is not for me. So for example, the event that I was just talking about back in August, the defensive shooting, we had women that didn’t feel comfortable being on a range with other women who had never shot a gun. Great. They went out and had their own like they went for a hike. They read their books. They went and hung out. There’s so much freedom and liberty to do whatever you’re comfortable with. Our mission is to serve you and make sure you’re walking away with what you intended to get out of an event. So whether that’s rest and recovery, a little adventure, learning skills or trades, we do it all. And there’s never any judgment when you decide something isn’t for you. Cheryl McColgan (29:01)can you share the website and where they can find out information about the trips and do you know off the top of your head like when the next one is? Because this episode will come out fairly soon here. Kiara Loucks (29:09)Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so our next one coming up is actually our first winter retreat in Yellowstone. So you can find out more at heroutdorjourney.com or on Instagram at heroutdorjourney. And we’re actually just launching all of our events for next year. So take a look. We actually have everything from, like I said, the adventure retreats to archery, long range shooting, you name it. We got it. And we also have payment plans. So knowing that some of these are maybe a little bit more expensive, we do have payment plans and we also have gift cards. So knowing the holidays are coming up, if you want to gift some special lady in your life the time of her life and change her world forever, we are your people. So give us a shout. Cheryl McColgan (29:52)Awesome. And on top of that, where can people connect with you personally and kind of follow along with your journey? ⁓ You post somewhat frequently Instagram, but I don’t know if you have any other socials that you want to share. Kiara Loucks (30:03)Yeah, yeah, no, Instagram is the best. As I’m kind of defining this new chapter of my life, I’ve tried to be a little more conscientious about what I’m posting and how I’m presenting to the world. So we’re gonna get back in the saddle here pretty soon with more consistent posts and all sorts of exciting stuff going on in the world. But yeah, follow along at at Chiara.Lowx. Yeah, at Chiara.Lowx. My brain is halfway here. Yeah, there you go. Cheryl McColgan (30:25)One, I’ll have it in the show notes as well if for some reason you can’t find her. Well, Kiara, it’s been so wonderful catching up with you again today and ⁓ sharing more of your journey that I was not aware of. And I’m really excited for everything that’s going to happen next. And I will be following along to see what amazing things you do from here. Kiara Loucks (30:43)thank you. And thank you again for having me on. You’re just one of my favorite people, even though we haven’t spent a ton of time together, obviously. But sourdough, you won my heart forever. So thank you. Cheryl McColgan (30:53)It’s my love language. All right, take care and we’ll see you again next time. Kiara Loucks (30:55)I’m here for it. Sounds good. Thank you.

Welcome back to the 274th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 274th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Love You Forever And More Munsch, based on five beloved children's books by Robert Munsch, adapted for the stage by Stephen Colella and Sue Miner, co-directed by Colella and Karen Gilodo, presented at Young People's Theatre. Join Ryan Borochovitz and special guest (his mom) Diana Rosenthal, as they talk all about memorable melodies, noisy imaginations, and how parents can use ladders to let their children know they love them. Love You Forever And More Munsch is playing at Young People's Theatre (165 Front St E, Toronto, ON) until March 21, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.youngpeoplestheatre.org/shows-tickets/love-you-forever-and-more-munsch/ This review contains many SPOILERS for Love You Forever And More Munsch. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [25:56] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Diana Rosenthal – Instagram: @bkind2allkinds Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.comCHAPTERS: 0:00 – Intro: You Agreed to This5:37 – Pre-Spoiler 25:50 – SPOILERS from here on out 26:38 – Mortimer's Framing Device 40:09 – Lights & Sounds 48:33 – You're Out of Order! 57:48 – On Ladders & Tennis Rackets 1:01:35 – Sign Off

Welcome back to the 275th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 275th episode we bring you a Duet Review of he Herald, written and directed by Jill Connel, presented in its world premiere by It Could Still Happen and Buddies in Bad Times Theatre. Join Mackenzie Horner and Ryan Borochovitz, as they discuss Herculean labours, manosphere argonauts, and the things they've barely retained from theatre school. The Herald is playing at Buddies in Bad Times Theatre (12 Alexander Street, Toronto, ON) until March 14th, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/show/the-herald/ This review contains many SPOILERS for The Herald. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [19:35] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Tiff and Trish break down what it means to have the right person in the right chair that's best for your practice. This means gauging comfort levels and the ability to stay calm, but it also means supporting each position so they feel like they can win at their job. Listeners are invited to review their positions based on what personality would thrive there — not only to increase treatment, but to make everyone's lives better, too. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are here today with, honestly, really fun one. These are some of my favorite subjects, the things that we talk about on here. I tell you guys that all the time, but I have Ms. Trish here with us today. Her internal nickname, Dental A Team name, for all of her clients, you guys can use this, is Tada. There's all kinds of reasons for it. We don't need to hash out today, but just know Tada is here. And I know I've said this on the podcast before, but if you're new here, you haven't heard it yet, I love.   podcasting with these women and I love also handpicking the topics. get topics given to us from our marketing company. We have a lot of input and say on them as the consultants, but really we just kind of look, I look ahead and I'm like, that's what we're doing in the month of March. So fantastic. And then I kind of handpick which consultants I want because I love when   I get to watch someone and partake with someone speaking on things that they're passionate about, that they truly thrive in and they love. And Trish, this topic specifically today, I know I tell you guys this, I don't know if you believe me or not, maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I know this is something that lights you up and I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you for blocking your calendar for me. Thank you for getting this set up. know it's like, both of us are like a little chaotic storms.   when it comes to things like this. So I know both of us were like frantically getting ready. So thank you. How are you today? And how excited are you to be here? Like just, you know.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (01:24) Thanks. ⁓   Thank you. Thank you.   I'm doing great. I always love it when I get to podcast with you.   The Dental A Team (01:34) Thank you, thank you. I ⁓ feel like all of you ladies bring your own sense of ease to podcasting for me, which is fantastic, because then I don't feel like totally exhausted by the end, so thank you. ⁓ Something you're really phenomenal at is people, Trish. I think you read people really well. I think you read people quickly, and I think that it's very easy for you to determine.   where people should sit or what they should be doing, what they're really great at. It's very easy for you to walk into a room and say, my gosh, this person is born to be a treatment coordinator. She is born to be a billing representative. you mentioned, gosh, what were we on? We were on some call this week. And you mentioned that you were a really great treatment coordinator. And I think we did it. It was on our coaching call we did together.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (02:24) Yes.   The Dental A Team (02:24) last week and you mentioned that you are a phenomenal treatment coordinator and is your passion and I think that reading people piece is part of that. It's part of who you are, it's part of your personality and it's part of what makes you a phenomenal consultant but also what fed into that piece of treatment coordinating for you and I think Trish if I had to read you correctly I think you love it and I think it lights you up to be able to read people and get people established in something they can be passionate about.   because you can read personalities. So very easy to see why this kind of topic we're doing, know, personality versus experience when it comes to team members. Very easy to see why that was such an easy fit for me to choose you to be here today. And before we dive in too much Trish, I want to ask what, ⁓ gosh, what about reading people and being able to peg that?   What do you love the most? What do you love when you walk into a room and you can say, my gosh, this, like what lights you up the most about it?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (03:28) I think what lights me up the most is like I can easily target somebody who is comfortable talking. So if somebody just kind of looks like their, you know, their shoulders are down, they look like they're at ease, that's going to be a pretty easy person to go and approach. Then you have your people that smile and they obviously they still look very friendly, but there is, it's, again, Tiff, it's like they don't have something written on their forehead. So it is really a read.   It's an internal emotional read that I have where it's like, you know what, that person actually probably doesn't want me just going up to them, just like starting a big conversation. And even if I do, you can read a person's body language and see how they're engaging back. And if the engagement back is kind of light, then like that's not a person that you push on. I'm not gonna make them have a conversation with me about a recent wedding they attended if they...   The Dental A Team (04:04) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (04:24) clearly see if it's showing that they just kind of don't want to do that. So I don't know, like, I don't think there's a book that you can read on how to do this. Maybe there is. I, I personally think that this is something that you either kind of have or you don't. That's just my, that's just my thoughts on that. because again, I mean, some people really struggle, really struggle with knowing how to read a room. I'm sure they don't want to, but yeah, if there was a secret sauce, I would   love to share it, but I do think it's kind of an internal characteristic that you may or may not be born with.   The Dental A Team (05:01) For sure, I totally agree. actually, have my son, you he's 17 now, the recording of this and we've always, myself and just the people on my side that have been involved in his life and forming him into the kid that he is, we were always really big on being like socially aware and really just aware of his surroundings. One, because you know, as a parent, was a single mom scared to death that somebody's gonna steal my kid, you know.   So I made sure like he was always insanely, intentional about watching his surroundings, but then also being the one that's courteous to everyone else. Like you just don't be in the way and not so much that you make yourself small, but don't be in the way because it's very easy to just be like, ⁓ awesome. Yep, you go around, know, like don't make it a thing. Just be super aware. And I know that Brody's got that kind of intentionality and that intuitiveness that   he can read people as well. And I wonder, often I watch him do it, and I'm like, gosh, is that because you're so aware of your surroundings and you're watching for your next move, right? Because I know for me, it's like, where am I going to step next even of a crowded grocery store? What's the easiest path? When I'm driving down the street, well, which lane is going to be the easiest for me that I'm not an inconvenience to other people as well? So kind of like double dipping there.   So I watch him do these things and I think to myself, there are so many people that are not aware of their surroundings. Is that a piece of it, right? And like you said, it's kind of ingrained as personality. Anyway, it's high tangent there, but I think one thing to do is to really ramp up your awareness of present, I guess really, right? It's being present with where you are at and the people that you're with. Because when we're in our heads ahead or behind,   we're not here and we're not intentionally paying attention to the things going on in the people around us. How do you feel like then? I mean, where can we talk about hiring? We can talk about all the pieces, but realistically, we get the biggest question is like, gosh, do I hire for personality? Do I hire for ⁓ experience? Do they have to have dental experience? Do they have to have management experience? But really, I think this also applies to looking at the team that you have today and making sure that   Tricia Lee Ackerman (06:59) Anyway.   The Dental A Team (07:23) We say this all the time, right? Person, right? Seed. It's a massive piece. And I think these pieces you can take and apply to both. When it comes to personality, Trish, and it comes to not just like, that's one thing, to be able to read personalities and be able to be in a room and navigate the situation, but personality versus experience. How do you help practices differentiate the two, even in any situation at all?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (07:50) Well, obviously, ideally, personality and experience at a high level, both. That's perfect. That's awesome. But but more than more times than than than not, we do have that situation where the doctor will say like she was really not, you know, hiring for an office manager. She was really nice. She was really great. She was all these things. But that's awesome. However, that's a position where we do need to see the skill set.   What type of leadership ⁓ experience does she have? And maybe she doesn't have any, but can we set her up for some? And how quick, how sharp is this individual? Because if they're really, really, I use the word cool. We can train skills, but we really can't train cool. You kind of either cool or you're not. And if they really like this person and they're sharp, then maybe we should entertain giving them some leadership activity homework.   and see how that comes. If it's somebody that has all the experience in the world, say like as a treatment coordinator, they've been doing it for a very long time, but they're kind of cold, they're kind of direct, ⁓ they kind of really don't know how to like maybe laugh or break some ice. Is that really the best treatment coordinator? Because that is really a role where you have got to be able to do both.   The Dental A Team (09:12) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (09:15) And that's where I shined and loved it so much because I was able to read the room and I was so passionate about what I was actually getting ready to sell to them. But I could also tell if, if, mean, if they started sweating and like, okay, slow down, back up, let's start to find like what's happening with this person. So the personality, you know, that's, that's great. Most offices are looking for somebody that knows how to smile and   and things like that. The skill set, it doesn't always have to be right on point as long as we can give them some tools slash tests, which we can and we could deploy those to monitor like almost like their sharp skill set. Like how sharp are they? How quick are they? Because if they're nice and quick and sharp, it might just be our person. Some of the best people that I have hired through the years had zero dental experience, but they were sharp.   They were quick. were in the restaurant industry. That's an amazing industry because people know how multi-task like crazy they can order drinks, they can order food, they can serve, and they have to do it all with a smile because their tips depend on it. those are perfect. That particular group of people are excellent examples because most of them do have the personality and they're sharp. Easy to.   The Dental A Team (10:16) Mm, I agree.   Yep.   Yeah, I agree.   I totally agree with that. have hired, I tell practices all the time, when you're at a restaurant and you have a hostess or a server or somebody that you love, give them your card, whether you're hiring now or not, give them your card. ⁓ I totally agree. I think too, as you're chatting through all of that, I agree 100 % with all of it. And I'm thinking too, as you're saying that, yes, you're front office lead, you've got to have the leadership skills, you got to have these pieces, and does the dental   Is the dental necessary? Not necessarily, right? My best treatment coordinator ever, she didn't have any dental experience, but she loved people and she believed in the product, like you said. So she didn't even, half the time she didn't even know what she was selling. She was just like, I know that they said this was going to make you healthier. So like, why would you not get this done? And I was like, this is wild. Like, it's an SRP. Yeah, yeah. And they would schedule and it was great. And they would prepay, right? And it was like, gosh, she blew my mind with it, but she believed so much in the people being healthier.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (11:26) And it works. Yep.   The Dental A Team (11:36) that she just did it. But I'm also thinking as you're saying this, yes, there are personality pieces for that that's necessary. And then it's like, yes, there's also personality pieces for our billing coordinator. So I think that's where the avatar comes into play, right? And knowing what are the goals of this position and what kind of a personality can do that? Because you're bubbly, like for sure this person can do billing.   Right, I can do billing, Trish, can do billing. If we sat down, we can do it. But I'm gonna be bored out my mind and it's gonna take me 10 times longer than the personality who was built for it. Because my personality, I need to be, I need to move. I need to move more, I need less details. I am not a detailed person. And I need to just, I need more interaction. So that billing personality might be someone who's a little bit more muted, a little bit, you know.   and more introverted, ⁓ detail oriented, loves the numbers, wants to dig in, and you probably are gonna want some experience if you can find it, but again, a skill set that can be taught. How do you help your practices kind of navigate those avatars?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (12:51) Just yesterday, literally just yesterday, this was a topic. And it's an office that does have, that like the skillsets is there for all of the team members. However, they weren't in the right seats. So when I started digging a little, because of course case acceptance is always something that I really want to target, because what does that do? It increases production and it's just a big win. Okay. But what we discovered was that,   The Dental A Team (13:02) Awesome.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (13:18) the team member that was actually more say like the checkout seat that was kind of finalizing and kind of closing up the treatment plan was, was like really shy when it came to money, ⁓ really shy when it came to like asking for any kind of deposit. And so what we found was that when that particular team member is in that seat, we had less people scheduling.   So meanwhile, I had gotten to know this front office team a little bit more over the last even just six weeks. And I thought to myself, hold on a second. I know exactly who needs to be in that seat all the time. So no more rotating of seats. We're going to lock down this chair is for that person, this chair. And I had ⁓ a touch base this morning with the O.M. They're already feeling like less anxious.   because the person that is now there is good at both. She has no problem, you know, wrapping up a financial piece of things, but she can also talk dentistry if any of those questions do come up. we, and that was a fun exercise. I do like doing that. Like, let's look at your team. Who are all these people and where did they shine? ⁓ okay. But they're sterile tech. Maybe just maybe.   The Dental A Team (14:19) Yep.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (14:42) We could just hire a sterile tech and this could be your main treatment coordinator. So evaluating those seats and I think consistently evaluating the seats, because we do evolve with change, that is a really successful and not time consuming project that I think a lot of OMS and doctors could and should do regularly.   The Dental A Team (15:03) I totally agree with you. I love that you just did that yesterday. ⁓ And I love that you keyed in on the rotation of seats because I feel like a lot of practices do and I hear a lot of managers and team members and doctors say, yes, but I want everyone to know how to do everything. Cool. I do too. I want you to be able to fill in if someone decides to take a vacation. Absolutely agree with you. I don't want things to go left undone. But being responsible for everything.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (15:21) Yes.   The Dental A Team (15:31) because no one's responsible for anything, and then that means no one's, everyone's responsible for nothing, is a whole lot of things not getting done effectively and a ton of underlying stress that people don't even realize they're feeling. The anxiety of not knowing how to win in your position or not feeling fully confident in the things that you're doing because you're doing so many things that require different brain sets.   You actually, you, you feel it, but you really don't know that it's happening until you get stabilized in that seat with clear goals and a clear way to win and in a space and a seat that you thrive in. You're like, I feel free. Like I feel so much less stressed and I didn't even realize I was stressed. It's, so much fun to watch. And if you've ever felt it, you know what that feels like and Trish.   you keying in on that right now might be to me at least the biggest piece of this whole podcast because so many practices and I think both of us experience this fight that like no we all do it right we all do it we all we help each other we don't want to be a team that can't help each other ⁓ golly if you become a team that can't help each other because you're in a treatment coordinator seat instead of this float seat where you're doing 15 000 things that's a different issue   Tricia Lee Ackerman (16:44) Yes.   The Dental A Team (16:57) That's completely separate and your culture needs to be fixed. But right now, you're not helping each other. You're actually holding each other back and you're, as the manager, I think I'm gonna just, hard truth, as the manager and the doctor, allowing a space like that to exist is a detriment to the people that you've hired. And it, to me, says, I don't think you can do one thing really well, so we're gonna do all of the things all together to make sure nothing gets missed.   And in reality, there's so much stuff that gets missed.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (17:31) Yeah, a lot of missed opportunity for growth there. And it can be so, and now like this, in this case, the gal that is now in this seat and she's not moving, she's going to be so empowered. And then the other two that we moved into the seats that are appropriate for them, same thing. They're going to feel so empowered. And that, and I'm looking forward to a check in with them in two weeks. That I really truly am, but.   The Dental A Team (17:34) for sure.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (17:56) That's the key. The right people, right seats, we say it all the time, almost every day to at least one client or more. That's the ticket. Who are your people? Where do they shine? Where are they currently sitting? And where could a better seat be for them?   The Dental A Team (18:15) Yeah, yeah, and I think what are the seats that you have and what's the goal of that seat? Because when we don't know, when we just say, well, I've got five front office team members or three front office team members, cool, but what are those seats? Well, we have two that sit at the front and then one that sits in the back. Okay, but like, what is the seat? So if we're saying we've got a check-in, a check-out, and an office manager who does billing and treatment planning, great.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (18:30) Right, I did.   The Dental A Team (18:44) We got five seats, label the seats. What is the seat? What is their main goal, the main duty of that seat? And how can they win in that seat? I did that exercise. I think it's very similar to what you just did, Trish. I did this with a big practice, three doctors, lots of hygienists, lots of, and I've done it with, we've both done it with so many practices. The big guys are the ones that are the most fun to untangle because those webs are deep.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (19:08) Yes.   The Dental A Team (19:11) But we started untangling them and the doctors were like, wait, I like, want to, I want to help with this. And they untangled the seats and the goals. And even as far as three metrics per position in the front office that they can say this position is winning so that now that front office gal can take this job description and say, great, these are the things that I'm going to do. This is my operations manual for my seat.   on how I'm going to get there. And just being able to have that clarity alone, even for the doctors, they think it opened up a ton for them and I can't wait till they deliver it to the team because it's just, it's empowering. And when you're hiring, that's how you know if you've interviewed the right person. Does this, this seat, the seat that I've created, the job description, the goal and the metrics, what kind of a person will thrive   reaching those. I'm not going to put a like introverted, great with numbers person. I want great with numbers for a treatment coordinator for sure, but they're not selling anything. They're just reviewing it, which is fine, but if you want a different result, you've got to do it differently.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (20:29) Something else that comes up Tiff quite often is, and this can be such a hard decision for a doctor, they might have like their best dental assistant that they've ever had. And those two work so well side by side. However, that particular say dental assistant could be an absolutely incredible treatment coordinator. But when we bring that to the doctor, that's when they're like,   because they just can't imagine not having that person side by side with them as their assistant. And the doctors that do recognize it and go, ⁓ my gosh, you were so on to something. Those are amazing transitions because number one, that dental assistant that we're even considering putting into like a full-time treatment coordinator role, she knows that doctor inside and out. She believes in him. I she knows everything about him, the dentist.   that is somebody that can really grow a business, then we just hire, we replace the dental assistant and sharpen those skills with the same ones, the one that stepped out. But like that is also something that doctors don't, sometimes they don't even entertain that idea. We have to entertain it for them. And then when they see that, it's like, and I can only imagine, it's very scary for them to lose their key person sitting next to them all day, every day, but it can also be a,   The Dental A Team (21:45) I agree.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (21:54) really great move.   The Dental A Team (21:56) I totally agree with you. Totally agree. Love it. Thank you. I knew this topic would be fun for both of us. We both kind of love moving people around. I love seeing, I love when we can move someone, like you just said, like giving someone the empowerment to try something they've maybe not really done before, but that growth opportunity to go from chair side dental assistant to treatment coordinator and just like learn a new skill set is, it's super cool. Super fun to watch. So.   Thank you Trish. I think if I had to pick out some action items for everyone, I think based on what Trish is saying here, evaluate the people you have. Look at their personalities and look at their skill sets. Trish, said, like, where do they thrive? So what do they love to do? Oftentimes, too, when I say that, I like to look at their personal lives. Like, what kind of sports are they playing? Like, what activities are they doing? Are they knitting? Are they pottery? Are they, you know, are they volleyball players? Like, look at their personalities.   And then also look at your positions and what personality would thrive in that position, not only to get us more treatment on the schedule, but to fulfill them, to make their lives better, to make them happy, to make them love where they work, and in turn, make you love where you work. So I'd say go evaluate your people, evaluate your positions, and get the personality straight. Build those avatars and take a look. Trish, anything you want to add before we wrap this up?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (23:23) don't think so. really don't. The disc test, maybe I'll toss that in. That's always kind of good one. Doctors do love to do that. ⁓ You know, evaluate those. Everybody can even do them together when you hire somebody else on or if you're considering. and you know, vibe checks. We always talk about that. Do your vibe check. Let your team do a vibe check. And again, how's their personality? Does that personality fit the actual practice? Some practices are full of spunk and fun and craziness. I see some of these teams on Instagram and they just   The Dental A Team (23:24) Awesome. Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (23:52) track me up, that would be a great one for fun. And you know, some doctors are not. So you might not want to bring in say like a clown into a really conservative practice. They might not mesh. So evaluating personalities slash the skill set. Yes, it's not always that easy, but we can certainly help. And ⁓ once you do get those right personalities in those right seats, like you said, Tim, everybody wins.   The Dental A Team (24:21) Yeah, I love it. Thank you. All right, guys, you heard it here. Go do the things. Trish, this was phenomenal. Thank you for taking this journey with me. Everyone, you know where to get ahold of us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or leave us five-star review below or both. We love both of those. So we can't wait to hear from you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Trish, thank you.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (24:29) Thank you.   Thanks, Tiff.

Return to Work After Stroke: How Marco Calabi Rebuilt His Career, His Purpose, and His Life At 47 years old, Marco Calabi was a DevOps engineer living in Italy – someone who spent his days automating systems, solving complex problems, and helping companies stop wasting time on repetitive tasks. He was healthy, working, paying bills, and spending time with friends. Life was normal. Then, without warning, everything changed. A small hole between the two chambers of Marco’s heart, a condition known as Patent Foramen Ovale, or PFO, had allowed blood flows to mix. A clot formed. It travelled to his brain. By the time his partner and sister realised something was terribly wrong, Marco was moving his arm involuntarily, unaware of what was happening to his own body. The emergency services were called twice. The second time, they came. Marco underwent eight hours of brain surgery. He was placed in a medically induced coma to allow his brain to rest. When he finally opened his eyes, he was on a hospital bed, and the road back had only just begun. The Reality of Stroke at 47 Marco woke from surgery to find the right side of his body had been affected. His arm, hand, and leg were weak. His speech was impaired. He left the hospital in a wheelchair. For many stroke survivors, this is the moment that defines everything that follows, not the stroke itself, but the first honest look at what recovery is actually going to require. “In the beginning, I was helped in everything,” Marco recalls. “They prepared my lunch. They helped me go to the bathroom. My family never left me alone.” His mother, his partner, his sister, and a close friend in the Netherlands all rallied around him. At home, physiotherapists and local health professionals visited him directly, a level of care he describes as incredible. Step by step, he began to reclaim his independence. First, the bathroom. Then the kitchen. Then the stairs. Each small act of autonomy arrived with a feeling he hadn’t expected: power. “You feel good because you think you have power again,” he says. “It is a very important moment.” Return to Work After Stroke: Why It Matters For working-age stroke survivors, the question of whether they can return to work after stroke is one of the most pressing they face. Identity, purpose, financial security, and routine work carry all of these things, and a stroke threatens all of them at once. For Marco, returning to work wasn’t just a financial necessity. It was evidence that his life still had forward momentum. He went back to his role as a DevOps and Site Reliability Engineer, initially working six hours a day instead of eight. The work itself, automating processes and improving systems, remained the same. Only the pace had changed. “I do the same things, but with different speeds,” he says simply. That shift in pace is something many stroke survivors recognise. Recovery doesn’t demand perfection. It demands persistence. “The right moment is now. Not after, not tomorrow, not next week. Now.” — Marco Calabi Recovery Happens in Steps One of the most grounded things Marco shares is this: recovery cannot be rushed. “The experience is made of steps,” he says. “You must live every step. The first steps are physical. And then your mind changes. But you must let yourself be.” This is the part that rarely gets talked about openly. The pressure to recover quickly — to prove to yourself, your family, and your employer that you are still capable — can work against the very process you are trying to complete. Marco’s advice is to resist the urge to skip ahead. Physical recovery comes first. Mental and emotional transformation follows naturally from there. Trying to rush past the physical phase doesn’t speed up recovery. It disrupts it. The Book, the Purpose, and the Shift Deep into his recovery, Marco did something unexpected. He wrote a book. Cambio di Vita, translated into English as Life Change: To Hell and Back, is his account of what happened, what he felt, and what he learned. Available on Amazon in digital and paperback. Writing started as a personal exercise. Somewhere in the process, its purpose shifted. “I said, my story is useless in this moment. I can make something,” Marco explains. “And so the book has another meaning to share.” For a man who had always found purpose through his career, the stroke opened an unexpected door. Helping others became a new calling. Speaking engagements, podcasts, and community conversations, Marco has built a new layer of meaning onto the life he already had. His best friend told him he had become wiser. His own reflection on what changed is striking: “Heartlessness is useless. You reach the hearts of people with softness.” What Stroke Taught Him About Life Perhaps the most powerful thing about Marco’s story is not what he lost, but what he found. He found that the right moment is always now, not when conditions are perfect, not when recovery is complete, but right now, with whatever capacity you currently have. He found that family and friends matter more than most of us acknowledge until we truly need them. He found that purpose doesn’t require a perfect body or a full working week. It requires a decision. If you are navigating life after stroke, wondering whether you can return to work, rebuild your identity, or find meaning in what remains, Marco’s story is proof that it is possible. Not easy. Not fast. But absolutely possible. If you are rebuilding your life after stroke and want a guide for the journey ahead, Bill’s book The Unexpected Way That a Brain Injury Can Change Your Life is waiting for you at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. If this podcast has supported you, consider supporting it back at Patreon. Your contribution keeps this community growing. FAQ: Return to Work After Stroke Can you return to work after a stroke? Yes, many stroke survivors do return to work, though the timeline and capacity vary depending on the severity of the stroke, the type of work, and individual recovery. Marco Calabi returned to his role as a DevOps engineer, initially working six hours a day instead of eight. The key is a gradual, supported transition. How long does it take to return to work after a stroke? Recovery timelines vary widely. Some survivors return within weeks; others need months or years. Factors include the type and severity of stroke, the physical and cognitive demands of the job, and the quality of rehabilitation support. There is no universal timeline. Patience and persistence matter more than speed. What can I expect when returning to work after a stroke? Many survivors return at reduced hours or modified duties. Adjustments to pace, task complexity, or physical demands are common. Open communication with employers and occupational therapists can help structure a gradual, sustainable return. Marco worked six-hour days and describes it simply: “I do the same things, but with different speeds.” Does returning to work help stroke recovery? For many survivors, returning to work contributes positively to recovery, providing routine, purpose, social connection, and a sense of forward momentum. Marco Calabi describes his return to work as evidence that life still had forward momentum. However, the timing must be right, and the transition should be gradual. What if I can’t return to my previous job after a stroke? Some survivors find that stroke opens doors to new kinds of purpose volunteering, writing, advocacy, or a different career direction. Marco Calabi used his recovery to write a book and speak to others about life after stroke. The key is finding what gives you meaning, even if it looks different from before. For more guidance on rebuilding life after stroke, visit recoveryafterstroke.com/book. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Marco Calabi — From Induced Coma to Back at Work: A Stroke Survivor's Honest Recovery Story At 47, Marco Calabi had a stroke caused by a hole in his heart. Today he's back at work, has written a book, and is helping others go on. Marco’s Facebook Marco’s Instagram Marco’s Book: Life Change Highlights: 00:00 Introduction: Return to Work After Stroke 02:27 Life Before and After the Stroke 05:23 Health Awareness and Stroke Causes 09:22 The Day of the Stroke 15:02 Writing the book “Life Change: To Hell and Back” 27:51 The Importance of Support During Recovery 33:15 Gaining Autonomy and Finding Purpose 39:14 The Power of Mindset in Recovery 43:24 Life Lessons Learned Post-Stroke 47:24 Inspiring Others Through Personal Experience Transcript: Introduction: Return to Work After Stroke Bill Gasiamis (00:00) what kind of things is okay to complain about? Like in Italy, if the pasta is not cooked al dente, you must complain. Marco Calabi (00:07) Okay, yeah. Okay, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (00:08) you Marco Calabi (00:13) Okay, but you complain, you learn to complain about very important things. Bill Gasiamis (00:24) Hello everyone and welcome to the recovery after stroke podcast. Before we get into today’s episode, I want to tell you about a tool I’ve been using and genuinely love turn to.ai. If you’ve ever tried to keep up with the latest stroke research, you’ll know how overwhelming it can be. There are literally 800 new things published every single week about stroke research papers, patient discussions, expert comments, clinical trials, events. Nobody has time to read all of that. Turn2.ai is an AI health sidekick that does it for you. It searches everything published in the past week and sends you what’s most relevant to your situation personalized every week straight to you. It’s my favorite new tool for 2026. It’s just $2 a week, patient first, low cost. And here’s what I love about this. When you sign up through my link, you’re supporting this podcast at absolutely no extra cost to you. Use code Bill10 for 10 % off and try it free at the link below or scan the QR code on your screen. Speaking of resources, if you’re rebuilding your life after stroke and want a roadmap for what comes next, my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing to Happen is available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. It’s written from experience, my own and other stroke survivors. And I hope it helps you the way writing it helped me. And to everyone supporting the show Patreon, thank you genuinely. This is not possible without you. Now today’s guest is Marco Calabi, a DevOps engineer from Italy who had a stroke at 47 caused by a hole in his heart. He went through eight hours of brain surgery, wake up from a medically induced coma, left hospital in a wheelchair and went on to return to work, write a book, and find a new sense of purpose. This is a remarkable conversation. Let’s get into it. Bill Gasiamis (02:18) Marco Calabi welcome to the podcast Marco Calabi (02:21) Yes, I’m ready and thank you for your invitation. Life Before and After the Stroke Bill Gasiamis (02:27) Tell me a little bit about what your life was like before you had the stroke. Marco Calabi (02:33) Yes, before my stroke, my life was normal, I say. Working, paying bills, going outside with friends and so on. After the stroke, everything changed because… Bill Gasiamis (02:53) Yeah. Did you have a, what kind of work did you do before the stroke? Marco Calabi (02:58) Before the stroke, even after the stroke, I work ⁓ in computer science field. I’m a DevOps engineer. And after the stroke, I work a little less. Six hours, I can do eight hours before the stroke. But I do the same things. I do normal things. project something about I’m very, very, very vertical in this moment. I work in a site, the reliability engineer field. my aim is to help this system to service. to automate things. And I’m like a robot. I like a robot. Bill Gasiamis (04:05) to automate. To automate things. So, okay, to automate manual processes or something like that. Marco Calabi (04:10) ⁓ so pretty. Yes, yes, I try to automate everything because the people, the company now try to avoid to make the people to repeating things. because you want people… make more important things and the repeating things are not very important. in my opinion, diminishing view of the work. And I try to make the things better in some way. before the soak and even after the soak. I do the same things but with different speeds. Health Awareness and Stroke Causes Bill Gasiamis (05:23) Yeah. With you regards to your health, how did you view your health before the stroke? Did you think you were healthy? Did you think you were well, or was there some things that you were dealing with that were related to the stroke that occurred? Marco Calabi (05:38) Yes, before the stroke I was healthy, but I was very worried about my health because I found a lot of health problems in my body, but the problems were not there. because after the stroke, I did understand I was healthy in that moment. And the stroke teached me to understand my health better. yes, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (06:30) You were heavy? Marco Calabi (06:37) because I went out from the hospital with wheelchair. And now I’m able to walk. Bill Gasiamis (06:51) Aha. So were you overweight? Marco Calabi (06:56) No, no, I’m not. I had a stroke maybe because the doctors doesn’t know the motive. Perhaps, perhaps it was a genetic problem in my heart because of FOP, because a small all between the two chambers in my heart. And the mixing of the two flow bloods makes problems to the brain. And after the stroke, ⁓ the stroke happened. But I… Bill Gasiamis (07:51) Yeah, did they? Did they find a hole in your heart? Marco Calabi (07:55) Yes, yes, and I was operated in my heart. Closing, yes, closing the hole because people suffer this common problem. But sometimes the problem is huge. A lot of people… Bill Gasiamis (08:01) to fix the hull. ⁓ huh. Hmm. Marco Calabi (08:25) don’t suffer major problems. But sometimes it is very, very important. In my case, was very, very important because it created the mixing of the blood flows, created ⁓ a blood costrain. to the brain and the platypus brain ⁓ created a stroke. It is the opinion of the doctors. Bill Gasiamis (09:04) on the How old were you at the time? Marco Calabi (09:10) I softened the stroke at 47 and now I’m 51 years old. Yes. The Day of the Stroke Bill Gasiamis (09:22) 41, 47 when the stroke happened. On the day of the stroke, did you notice there was some, something wrong? Did you feel strange, feel different? Marco Calabi (09:31) Yes, during the stroke it was terrible because I did a lot. My mate called the emergency number and they thought it was a problem of annotation. the neck. And my sister, because my brother called my sister, and my sister came into my house and she understood something was wrong, because I moved my arm in the air. Bill Gasiamis (10:02) Mm-hmm. Marco Calabi (10:30) And I had, sorry, because remembering these things makes me a little uncomfortable. yes, but okay. And my sister, together with my mate, decided to call again the Belgics. and then they went to buy house and my story began. Bill Gasiamis (11:14) Hmm. So I’m going to go back for a moment and ask you about what just happened. You got uncomfortable. it emotional to talk about what happened to you sometimes? Marco Calabi (11:23) Yes, yes, yes, because I know I never accepted this thing I’m living together with it but yes, because yes, yes, because I think Bill Gasiamis (11:42) Uh-huh. You haven’t accepted it yet. Marco Calabi (11:52) I will never accept this thing. But I try to go on. I try. Bill Gasiamis (12:01) Why? Why do you think you won’t accept it? And is that helpful to not accept it? Marco Calabi (12:08) Because it is very hard to accept. Because it is not normal, in my opinion, to accept the bad things in life. ⁓ We must live together with them. Because… because we must live and stop. But living gains understanding is very different. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (12:48) If you’ve chosen to live with it and overcome the challenges that it gives, isn’t that a form of acceptance? Marco Calabi (12:58) Maybe. is, in my opinion, it is a form of acceptance. Because sooner or later I make something, I do something. And my father said it is useless to look through the ceiling. And it is a big truth. It is useless. Your life is in your hands. And you in that moment, your life is a lot in your hands. And you must decide your future because No people are able to help you. No other people, friends, family, relatives, and so on. You must do only with your strength and soul. Bill Gasiamis (14:18) Yeah. And to me, that sounds like acceptance. You have taken responsibility for the ⁓ recovery that you have to do. You’ve taken responsibility for your life. You’ve made steps to rehabilitate yourself, your emotions, your mental health. You wrote a book about what happened to you. And that sounds like you have accepted a lot of what happened to you, even though perhaps what it sounds like you’re saying maybe, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds like you’re saying, ⁓ I’m not going to give up. Writing the book “Life Change: To Hell and Back” Marco Calabi (15:02) Yes, yes, because I wrote a book because I followed a possible path because it was a path of recovering not only physical recovering but mainly mental recovery and writing the book was very helpful for me. And I hope it is helpful for others. Because in the beginning, I wrote the book because I tried to tell my story. And then I said, my story is useless. in this moment. I can make something. And so the book has another meaning. And because I want in this way to help, to share, to share. It is the right word. to share my experience. Not to… to share. To share. Bill Gasiamis (16:36) Yeah. Life change to hell and back is the English title, but you wrote the book in Italian and then had it translated to English. Correct. Marco Calabi (16:45) Yes, yes. In Italian, it is called Cambio di Vita. And in English, is ⁓ called Life Change. And to hell and back is the subtitle, because I went to tell. it was an help for me and perhaps I come back to tell to share to the others what I saw and what I did feel and I hope this experience will help in some way other people. Bill Gasiamis (17:17) Mm-hmm. Understand. Your journey started after the second time the emergency services were called to your house. What happened after that? Did they come to your house and then they took you to hospital? Did they treat you at your house? What happened? Marco Calabi (17:59) No, no, the physiotherapist and the therapist went to my house because I was not able to go to the hospital again. And then Italian hospitals decided to come directly. to my house and help me in my house. And so physiotherapists and local beauties, they were incredible. They were very, very professional and very, very helpful for me. Helped me to recover a little my body. in my speech. Bill Gasiamis (18:59) Before the recovery, I just wanted to understand what happened when you were having the stroke, the day of the stroke. your sister called the emergency services a second time. Did they take you to hospital to understand what was wrong? Marco Calabi (19:14) Yes. Yes, and I was operated immediately because my brain started to grow. And then I was operated because they didn’t want to… Bill Gasiamis (19:23) huh. Expand. Marco Calabi (19:47) to have to experience later problems. And they operated to me for eight hours. And then I was inducted with a comma. because my brain needed to rest. And then I woke up on a bed looking around and seeing people. And I remember I remembered a woman said, it is time to walk. And with a lot of difficulty, I started to walk. And then I was transferred to another hospital. to specialize ⁓ in stroke recovering. And there I was there for two months. Bill Gasiamis (21:10) Mm-hmm. And what were the deficits you needed to get rehabilitated from? Did you have problems with your body, with your limbs, with your, what was the problem? Marco Calabi (21:27) Problems with the walk, problems with the speaker. a problem to it because I was, I don’t know, it is visible. Yes, yes, because during the search they opened a hole. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (21:47) ⁓ trick you trick you asked me Marco Calabi (22:05) And then the wall remains open for all of that time. And then I was eliminated from this wall. And one month later, the wall was… All was closed. Bill Gasiamis (22:36) Okay, so you had the chocostomy in for a long time and ⁓ they removed the chocostomy, then the hole is there, takes a month to close. Marco Calabi (22:39) Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And my mate says it seems a cross. I don’t know, I don’t. Okay, Why not? Bill Gasiamis (22:56) It seems across. ⁓ Why not? Yeah. So, so you had to also learn to walk again, which side of your body was impacted by the stroke, which one was it your left side or your right side that didn’t work. Marco Calabi (23:14) my right side my right side my leg my arms my arms my hands and okay all the right side and ⁓ i am weaker to the right side and okay Bill Gasiamis (23:16) Mm-hmm. Waker. Marco Calabi (23:38) In the beginning, I was not able to write. And then after a long, very long training, I am able to write again. Very, very slowly, but I am able. Bill Gasiamis (24:00) Mm hmm. And when you were in hospital, what was the hardest part of the recovery for you? Did you, when you started walking again, what was that like? Marco Calabi (24:14) In the hospital, never stop, always on the wheelchair. And I stop when I come back home. But yes. No, no, no, no. Bill Gasiamis (24:38) You stood up when you came back home, but in rehabilitation, you didn’t stand up. Marco Calabi (24:44) very very sad. very very sad. ⁓ Above all in the transportation for example from the wheelchair to the bed or do an exercise bicycle maybe but stop stop stop. ⁓ I remembered sometimes they tried to make me walk on the stairs, very, very, very few stairs, and tried to make ⁓ me walk in corridors and stuff. Bill Gasiamis (25:48) Okay and your arm, your right arm, you couldn’t use it at the shoulder and the hand, is that what the problem was? Marco Calabi (25:58) Yeah, I can use it. I can use it. It is weaker. A little weaker. But I can use it in this moment. When I was in the hospital, my right arm had problems. Because ⁓ the mobility was limited. And after two months, I was able to move it freely. And now I’m able to move it again in every direction. Bill Gasiamis (26:49) Hmm. ⁓ Very good. When you came home from hospital, who was at home with you? Were you living alone or did you have some family with you? Marco Calabi (26:58) No, no, no, with my family, with my sister and with my mate because my sister and my mate never leave me alone. Leave me alone. they encouraged me. Thanks God because… ⁓ I think in this moment, family, friends, relatives, mates are very, very important. Above all, in this moment. Bill Gasiamis (27:44) Was there somebody that helped guide you through the recovery? Someone that stepped up and you had a lot of support from? The Importance of Support During Recovery Marco Calabi (27:51) My Yes, my friends. Above all, one of my friends who lives in the Netherlands because he was very worried about my health. And my bait talked to him to synchronize him about my condition and after and when I went back home he was very very very present and he was very very he was a very good friend. Bill Gasiamis (28:52) understand. So he came, supported you, was very present when you came back home. Yeah. Marco Calabi (29:00) Yes, yes, yes. Above all, my mom, my sister, my baby, obviously, my friends. Because in this moment, it is a moment you understand very well the friends. more close in the friends maybe, ⁓ maybe are fearful of your situation. Bill Gasiamis (29:44) Yes, yes, very much. Lots of people get fearful ⁓ when somebody they know how to stroke, they don’t know how to help and what to do. Marco Calabi (29:53) Yes, because I think it is natural. I understand it is natural because the first thing a friend, a person who knows you in things is what I can do. And she is very fearful because the situation is huge. And I understand in this moment, in that moment, you understand very well the people. And you understand very well the quality. Bill Gasiamis (30:39) Yes. Marco Calabi (30:46) Yes, you are the same. You are the same. Bill Gasiamis (30:47) your friends. Yeah, very common, very common. Doesn’t matter if you live in Italy, America, Australia, experience is very similar. People have very similar ⁓ reporting about friendships. Marco Calabi (30:59) Yes, I don’t think it is different from country to country because we are human being and stop and and stop. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (31:08) you People are people. What kind of things did you need help with at home? Could you go to the bathroom on your own? Could you eat on your own? What help was your family providing you? Marco Calabi (31:28) Yes, in the beginning I was helped in everything because they prepared my lunch, ⁓ they helped me to go to the bathroom, they face outside the door, checking the situation. Okay, okay, okay. I understand, okay. And then, with time, I conquered my autonomy. Because, for example, going to the bathroom, cooking something. Bill Gasiamis (31:58) Thank God. Thanks a lot. Marco Calabi (32:22) and doing my pet and so on. It is very important because in these moments you say to yourself, I’m able again. My life is not useless. It is silly to say. I know. It is very, very silly to say. But… Bill Gasiamis (32:54) in the moment, it’s probably okay in the moment, but now on reflection, it’s silly to say that, but at the moment it’s difficult and it’s a emotional experience and it’s a relief that you have and you have some autonomy now again, and you feel good about it. So yeah. Gaining Autonomy and Finding Purpose Marco Calabi (33:01) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, you feel good because you think you have a power again. I don’t know. And it is a moment. It is a very important moment for you. I understand. I understand the luckiness. able to know because other people ⁓ has no luck ⁓ like me. Like me. And I understand. And this thing makes me run because, OK, I’m lucky and so I want Bill Gasiamis (33:55) Mm-hmm. Marco Calabi (34:11) I want to help others because I’m black. And so. Bill Gasiamis (34:16) Yes, have luck. You have a bit of luck on your side. You are improving. You’re getting better. You have autonomy. Again, you want to help other people because it’s important. Marco Calabi (34:25) Yes, very. In my opinion, it is very, very important because life otherwise is meaningless. you have to give some meaning to your life. And the stroke in some way helped me to discover my possible goal in my life. Bill Gasiamis (34:44) Yeah. calling in life, understand. So you didn’t get married, you didn’t have a family. Marco Calabi (35:09) No, I never married, but I have made a girlfriend for, I don’t know, 11, 12 years. We are like married. No, no, no, no. Bill Gasiamis (35:28) Okay, but you didn’t have children. Okay. So for you made a good point about purpose and meaning in life and helping other people. If you’re, if you don’t have family to, ⁓ fuss over to ⁓ to help out, to support, et cetera, when they’re young, like children, it could be a little bit of a gap in your life about purpose and meaning. And now that you had the stroke, you found that supporting other people provides you with some additional purpose and meaning above your relationship as well with your partner. Marco Calabi (35:50) Yes. Yes. Yes, because not ⁓ having keys makes me available, let me see, help others who have keys and maybe ⁓ they are busy, too busy. Bill Gasiamis (36:22) Yeah. Marco Calabi (36:35) for other things and I try to make ⁓ my life helpful for those ones. Bill Gasiamis (36:46) Yeah, you have more spare time and you can allocate that to helping other people. Yeah. So, you know, the Marco Calabi (36:50) Yes, yes, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (36:59) You talk very positively about your recovery. You’re focusing on all the positive things. You wrote a book. You want to help other people. But was there some times that you really struggled, that you had a really hard time and you needed more support emotionally or mentally? Marco Calabi (37:18) both of things. I had ⁓ moments with a lot of climate. Bill Gasiamis (37:21) Both. crying, yeah, very common. Marco Calabi (37:32) because ⁓ in those moments I was ⁓ I saw my life had problems. And for example, my mother’s teach me again ⁓ to wake on the shoes. And so in that moment, I… was I was ⁓ I… ⁓ I understood my situation very deeply. And why I wanted to prove it? Because every day I wanted to go on and every day I wanted to progress because I don’t want to live was moments again. I would like to make my life better. Bill Gasiamis (39:06) Uh-huh. Understand. Yeah. But it was difficult to make your life better because you’re just in the recovery phase. You’re very restricted. Things are difficult. The Power of Mindset in Recovery Marco Calabi (39:14) Yes. It is very, very, important the presence of your family, of your friends, because otherwise I would not be here. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (39:40) Yeah, that helped to bring you back. Marco Calabi (39:41) Yes, yes. And then after their help, you must help yourself. Because I understand, I understand you have everything to complain, but complaining is useless. It’s useless. Bill Gasiamis (39:54) as well. Marco Calabi (40:09) Complaining is natural, but it must be very short. A moment of self-reflection, a moment and stop. And then you must do something for yourself and stop. Stop to look to the ceiling. This useless. I wanted to say this useless. Bill Gasiamis (40:45) Yeah, I agree. But it’s something we all do. We all find ourselves complaining about our situation, but as long as you don’t stay there for a long amount of time, you can do the complaint and then move on and continue looking at things that you… Marco Calabi (40:57) Hmm. Hmm. Yes, Complaining is not a part, it’s a mainly part of my spirit. I complain ⁓ very, very few times. I understand people are different and the complaining is different, but… You must very, very, very aware of your situation and this stroke maybe makes you aware, more aware about yourself, about your problems, about your weakness and starting, starting, I interline, starting. from that you can go on. Bill Gasiamis (42:04) You can go on. Yeah, I agree. When you complain about things, like what kind of things is okay to complain about? Like in Italy, if the pasta is not cooked al dente, you must complain. Marco Calabi (42:23) Okay, yeah. Okay, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (42:24) you It’s important. You have to tell the chef, I’m sorry, the pasta is not al dente. You have to take it back. Marco Calabi (42:35) Okay, but you complain, you learn to complain about very important things. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (42:46) Yes, it’s feedback. It’s not complaining. It’s feedback. My food is not al dente and I need you to make it again so I can eat it because I can’t eat like this. It’s too cooked. Marco Calabi (42:51) What? I never was, I never liked a very, very precious food and I ate everything. I tasted everything, I ate everything. Even in the hospital, I ate everything. Life Lessons Learned Post-Stroke Bill Gasiamis (43:24) Is Italian hospital food good or is it terrible? Marco Calabi (43:31) It is a hospital book. And so it is very light. It is very, very, very simple. And it is very teachable. it is not a good book. Bill Gasiamis (43:43) Yeah. Yeah. You spoke a little bit earlier about how you have to go on with your life. So looking back now, how have you changed the way that you go about your life? How do you do things differently now? Marco Calabi (44:15) everything, everything, everything. I looked at the life in different way because I put the things in different priorities, working, having good time with friends and so on. Because before stroke you… to think about the things you do every day, but you don’t do that. Those ones. Then after the stroke, you start to do immediately the things. You don’t want to wait for things, the right moment and stop. Because the right moment, you understand, is now, not after, not tomorrow, not the next week. Now, it is a new way of singing life. You stop to wake because you understand time is very very precious. Bill Gasiamis (45:50) Yeah, and we may not have tomorrow. Understand. Marco Calabi (45:53) Yes, yes, you must do the things now and stop. As you can. You must not be a Superman. You must not do ⁓ things, a lot of things. You must do what you can and stop. But you must do. Bill Gasiamis (46:24) Yeah. Marco Calabi (46:25) and stop. Not tomorrow, not in one week, and not in one month. Now. You must do now. And stop. Never you understand, never stop you. Bill Gasiamis (46:47) Yeah, I agree. Once you have a stroke, you realize that you are mortal and that maybe you don’t have… Marco Calabi (46:53) It’s just… Bill Gasiamis (46:58) another 50 years or 40 years ahead of you. maybe you need to do, take more action, do more things, have the experiences you want to experience, whatever you can, I agree. ⁓ It’s something I think that is a good way to inspire people who have had a stroke, who have injuries, that you can find a way to do something that you want to do that you haven’t done. Inspiring Others Through Personal Experience Marco Calabi (47:24) Yes. Bill Gasiamis (47:24) that you love. very important to try and get it done, find a way to make it happen. Even if you’re in a wheelchair, even if it’s difficult, even if you need a lot of planning, you know, has to be something that you tick, you tick off your list of things to do. Marco Calabi (47:42) And it is not important what type of disease you suffer, cancer, stroke, leukemia, so on. It is, in my opinion, very important your mind, the way your mind, the way… Bill Gasiamis (48:10) your minds. Marco Calabi (48:10) want you, your mindset, the way you want to go on and stop. But I want, I want, I want to tell my story. Maybe, tell. If I am able to go on, everyone is able to go on. Bill Gasiamis (48:19) Yeah. Marco Calabi (48:41) It is not something special. Everyone can go to work and so Bill Gasiamis (48:51) Yeah, I agree. Everyone should go on with their life in some capacity as much as they can. ⁓ Yeah, that’s excellent. What about strengths? What have you discovered in yourself that you didn’t know was there? Did you uncover some new powers, some new strength, some better understanding of what you’re capable of? Has it been a learning experience for you to Marco Calabi (49:05) Okay. Yes. Yes, after the writing of my books was a moment of reflection because in that moment I asked to myself, I’m able to write a book, so what can block me? And in this moment, in that moment, I was able to do other things. Maybe here write another book, like choosing a social media manager for my Facebook and Instagram and asking. to hospitals and associations to tell my stories, creating podcasts and so on because writing the book created a moment, a precise moment of going forward. And in that moment, I aware. of my powers and my skills to go on. It was… Bill Gasiamis (51:02) Yeah. Yeah. You wrote a book, you did podcasts, you helped your community by speaking. You did all these things that you haven’t done before the stroke. Marco Calabi (51:10) Yes. Yes, and for example, now I’m discussing with a company for a possible speech of myself to inspire other people. And I’m telling the truth. I’m very, very happy because I hope this… Bill Gasiamis (51:30) Yeah. Marco Calabi (51:41) will ⁓ create something beautiful because I’m available to tell my story, to sell, perhaps something helpful. My best friend. Bill Gasiamis (52:01) Yeah, you know what I like about what I like about strokes and bio-codes? Sorry, go ahead. Marco Calabi (52:08) My best friend said, you are wiser. I don’t know. don’t know. I don’t know. Yes, yes. Before, was very hard. I was very, because my father was very hard. And I learned. Bill Gasiamis (52:19) Wiser. Wiser than before. Maybe. Marco Calabi (52:37) to be very hard. after the stroke, understood that heartless is useless because you reach the hearts of people with softness, not with heartlessness. Heartlessness makes ⁓ you more hateful. and not more lovable. Bill Gasiamis (53:10) Yeah, understand. Yes, I agree. Very wise. That’s very wise. Very wise. ⁓ You know what I like about your telling your story in for another organization or to inspire people is a lot of the people in the audience will not have had a stroke or another health issue or anything like that. Marco Calabi (53:11) Go on, go on, sorry. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (53:37) And what I like about it is that now there’s several years have passed since your stroke. So you’re standing on a stage telling your story. And one day, if those people happen to have a stroke or a negative medical experience, they have a picture in their mind of once upon a time, I was sitting in a room and there was this gentleman who… told his story and he was telling us about how he overcame his challenges, how he ⁓ improved, how he got better. And maybe those people who are unwell now because something happened to them, like everybody in life, things go wrong. Maybe they could say, I remember that man and the story that he told me, and maybe I can take some action and do similar things and get better. Marco Calabi (54:27) Mm-hmm. Bill Gasiamis (54:32) like he did. Marco Calabi (54:32) Yes. I tell the truth. It is not easy. It’s not easy. The experience is made of steps. In steps, steps. In the beginning, I… Bill Gasiamis (54:50) steps. Marco Calabi (54:58) You want to prove yourself, you are able to do things. And these are very important to you. And then you change. Steps, you change. Because the situation is changing. And you cannot, cannot, get things before you experience all the steps. It is, in my opinion, impossible. You must live every step. The first steps are physical. And then your mind changes. But the first steps are physical and soft. and you can you must you must us us us let that eat you must us let you be because you are not a superman you are not a special man and every every person experience these steps little by little and so you must aware of this situation. Otherwise, try to go forward faster. And in my opinion, it is a very wrong way to go on. Bill Gasiamis (56:55) Very wise, my friend. Marco Calabi (56:56) Thank you, thank you! Thank you, thank you! Bill Gasiamis (57:03) Your friend was correct when he said that you are much more wise now. I agree with him. Marco Calabi (57:07) Okay, okay, okay. I will report you. Bill Gasiamis (57:15) Report back to him, let him know that I agree with him. Now, your book is available online, correct? We can get it on Amazon, everywhere. Marco Calabi (57:21) Yes. Okay. Because in Italy, ⁓ I found a publisher. In the world, I decided to publish myself the book because I wanted to spread my story. as full as possible, I would say. And so I think what is the best platform, in my opinion, it is in this moment, Amazon. Because it can provide a digital version, paper version. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (58:07) Yeah. Marco Calabi (58:18) is only for US countries and so on. Instead, digital fashion is worldwide. And so, it is very powerful because I can reach every person in the world. Bill Gasiamis (58:44) Yes, hopefully. Marco Calabi (58:45) It was my idea. And I started and I make my book translated. I published it in Amazon. I created a digital paperback version and so on because I wanted to make it available. Very, very much. Bill Gasiamis (59:19) Yes, indeed. you have well done. I’m going to have a link to the Amazon ⁓ book. And also you will send me some links to ⁓ any other areas you would like us to send people if they’re interested to find out more information about it. I thank you for reaching out and joining me on the podcast. I very much appreciate it. It’s nice to meet you and to hear your story and all the best with your ongoing recovery. Marco Calabi (59:24) Okay. Okay. Thanks. Yes. Okay, and I say thank you, thank you, Bayard for your time, people, and thank you very much to tell my story and to give me the possibility to tell my story. Bill Gasiamis (1:00:08) Well, what a lovely conversation and what a journey and what wisdom to our listeners. If today’s episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Leave a comment and leave a review. Subscribe if you haven’t already. Marco’s book, Life Change to Hell and Back is available on Amazon. The link is in the description below. And remember, if you want to stay on top of the latest stroke research without the overwhelm, turnto.ai has you covered. just $2 a week use code bill for 10 % off. Link is in the description And until next time, keep going. The post Return to Work After Stroke – Marco Calabi’s Honest Recovery Story appeared first on Recovery After Stroke.

Description Stop experimenting with AI and start driving ROI. Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this keynote from the Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat, Nina Harding breaks down the massive shift happening in the AI landscape as customers move away from experimental pilots and demand concrete ROI and business outcomes. She emphasizes that the era of selling products and time-and-materials approaches is over, replaced by outcome-based, verticalized selling where vendors and partners share accountability. Through real-world examples in healthcare and retail, Harding outlines how partners can leverage Copilot Studio, Agent 365, and Microsoft’s incentive programs to build specific superpowers, differentiate themselves, and ultimately lead the AI mission alongside Microsoft. Key Takeaways Customers are no longer interested in AI experimentation and now expect immediate, concrete return on investment. Selling products is dead; the modern approach requires a consultative, signal-based strategy focused entirely on business outcomes. The traditional time-and-materials billing model is disappearing as clients demand shared accountability for project success. Rapid proliferation of AI agents has made security and governance top priorities for enterprise customers. Success in the Microsoft ecosystem now requires partners to highly verticalize their value propositions by industry. Defining and clearly articulating your unique “superpower” or niche is essential to stand out to the Microsoft field sales organization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJ4Zcf4tZc&t=1920s If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Nina Harding, Microsoft AI, artificial intelligence ROI, AI agents, Agent 365, Copilot Studio, outcome-based selling, verticalization, healthcare AI, retail AI, Cognizant, Davos 2026, AI governance, AI security, technology transformation, Ultimate Partner Live, enterprise AI adoption, digital transformation, system integrators, AI pilots Transcript [00:00:00] Nina Harding: More importantly, we want to serve more and more people faster, and AI is coming in and having a very practical approach in healthcare alone. [00:00:14] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: crowd. Come join me now for a compelling discussion on the impacts of the tectonic shifts we’re all seeing. [00:00:27] Vince Menzione: I feel incredibly fortunate, uh, to have this, this, this friend Nina who came into the studio here for the first time, actually earlier, well last year, geez, earlier this year. [00:00:38] Vince Menzione: It was last year, right after my accident I think. And, uh, we gotta spend some time together. And she was so good to, uh, make her time available and her team’s time available to come down here to be with us today. Ne I’m so thrilled to have you. I am going to turn over the stage to you. Uh, you’ve got some incredible learnings. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: I know you’ve been on the AI tour with Microsoft. Yeah. And you’ve got some great learnings you’re gonna share about what’s happening. Absolutely. So it’s so great to have you. [00:01:05] Vince Menzione: It’s nice to see you. [00:01:06] Nina Harding: Nice to see you. [00:01:07] Nina Harding: Thank you. Well, thanks everyone. It’s great to see so many familiar faces and then some new faces as well. [00:01:15] Nina Harding: Um, because we’re in a little bit more of an intimate environment, I thought I would approach this a little bit differently. Give you some better insights into what we’re actually hearing at Microsoft with our customers, some of the things that are actually moving the needle that we’re seeing some of our partners do. [00:01:34] Nina Harding: So really to share some of the best practices out there, and hopefully you’ll leave with some more insight or tips and tricks, um, is really what I would love to do because our job. Collectively is really this transformation and to take a advantage of it out there in the market right now. [00:01:57] Nina Harding: Let’s see [00:01:57] Nina Harding: here. [00:01:59] Nina Harding: I can move slides. Well, this one isn’t moving. Any slides? [00:02:07] Nina Harding: No. Okay, great. So, um, some of you might. Uh, know that I’m a Floridian now, right? So I just live right up, up the way in Palm Beach. Um, so not too far, but I still wouldn’t miss this opportunity to be with all of you. Um, there is an energy that I think that we’re all feeling right now, and, uh, it’s, it’s palpable. [00:02:32] Nina Harding: We’re finding right now that our customers are really going from this landscape of experimenting with ai. Really to looking at the outcomes and having expectations around the momentum that they’re seeing. Right. That’s a big shift, right? We, and things are going pretty quickly, so I look at things almost quarterly now on what is that core message and what are, what is the difference in the tone from our customers of what they’re expecting? [00:03:06] Nina Harding: What we’re gonna talk a little bit about today is how all of you, our partners, are such a critical part of that journey. Actually, sometimes the most important part. You’re on the front lines with the customers. You’re the ones having those conversations. You’re the ones that are in there arm to arm with their teams, listening to what they’re experiencing, their challenges that they’re facing, and they’re really wanting now to go from this world of, Hey, we have lots of different pilots. [00:03:41] Nina Harding: Right? A lot of us know that right into, oh my gosh, it’s not about pilots anymore. They really want that ROI story. They want those outcomes and it’s looking very different for all of us. The way that we sell, the way that we go into our engagements, the way that we even price things, the way that we, meaning Microsoft partner and customer are locking arms is fundamentally very different. [00:04:15] Nina Harding: We have to go in collectively. We have to also be responsible for the outcomes and deliver on those. ROI is that headline that we’re all after. Right. It is the most important part of the puzzle right now because there isn’t a single boardroom that isn’t talking about AI and you guys are all experiencing it. [00:04:39] Nina Harding: It’s easier than ever to go in and have the conversation. The hardest part is how do we quickly get to an ROI study, so you or ROI case so that we can continue to build on that. And when you’re looking at this every. Customer is providing signals out there to help you grow that penetration into the account. [00:05:04] Nina Harding: And I’m gonna share some of the signals that I think that are really meaningful. But that’s the most important thing is we’re no longer, and I know you guys all know this, we’re no longer selling product at all anymore. We’re selling those outcomes. And I can tell you at Microsoft, we’re spending a tremendous amount of time retraining all of our sales reps. [00:05:25] Nina Harding: Really to be focused on how do you listen and do that consultative signal based sale. How do you actually go in and start selling, not selling, but I mean it is selling, but listening to the journey that they want to go through. What are the challenges that they’re facing and what’s the transformation that we’re able to kind of go and be a part of together with our partners? [00:05:54] Nina Harding: Notice it’s not about product. Product is just the tools in your tool chest to create those outcomes. So that’s gonna be really important as we go through this journey. [00:06:09] Nina Harding: Uh, so I saw the, the title of the session, uh, mentioned Davos and Davos was an interesting time. Uh, Microsoft has a very, actually, a very big presence at Davos and, uh, we had over 300 customer meetings there, uh, where we were meeting with some of the top companies around the globe. And it was very much affirmed that. [00:06:34] Nina Harding: Uh, the, the concept of AI we’re past, like curiosity stage, right? We’re way past that and we’re even past that. The art of the possible discussion, right? Uh, what the, the customers are almost at the point is, is come in and tell me, tell me what to do. Show me how to do it. It’s a very different position than, Hey, we’re presenting you with all these different possibilities. [00:07:08] Nina Harding: They’re They’re tired. They’re tired of all the possibilities. They wanna get to the brass tacks of how are you gonna change my customer service department? How are you gonna make it easier for my hr? How am I going to derive growth? What are some of the other things that you guys are experiencing out there? [00:07:23] Nina Harding: Like what are some of those other ROI drivers that people are asking, where am I gonna find the money? What for? For doing the project or out of the project? Other people? I Okay. To do the project. Okay. Resourcing. Okay. So what we’re seeing here is that, uh, the conversation is very much now focused on, okay, I need sec, I need security. [00:07:50] Nina Harding: That has been louder than ever before. So, Vince, the one thing I would say about that slide where you had those five different pillars, I’d put security on the bottom. Understanding your data, your data platform on the bottom, those are consistent across all those pillars. And then you can kind of hit at them. [00:08:10] Nina Harding: But, uh, there’s a lot of energy, there’s a lot of excitement, but it’s rooted in what are you materially going to do to change my business, and is your skin in the game to help me do it and I’ll pay you for that outcome? The concept of this time and materials approach gone. Gone. Even at Microsoft, we’re adjusting to the fact that the customers aren’t like, oh. [00:08:35] Nina Harding: Just hand it over to a system integrator and they’ll deliver on it. They’re like, oh no, we want you accountable too. You’re accountable for the outcomes as well, which is, oh gosh, okay. How do we do that in a partnery model that makes sense where we’re not tripping over each other, but we’re going in stronger together. [00:08:54] Nina Harding: We have one message together and we’re really focused on driving that. They’re also really concerned around the governance of all these agents, right? I see a lot of heads shaking on this. I mean, there’s a lot of proliferation right now. There’s a lot of excitement. I mean, I don’t know in your companies, but people are building agents faster and quicker, uh, than ever before, and some of them are really, really cool and they’re making huge point savings of times. [00:09:22] Nina Harding: Everything from. You know, some of you guys have probably heard me talk about everything from, uh, working on performance reviews to what are all of the incentives that we have for partners and making that easy to understand to, uh, to helping me understand patterns in our financials and what partners are really performing and growing. [00:09:45] Nina Harding: All of these agents are just popping up everywhere, but that creates a real governance issue and a real security issue for a lot of companies as well. So you take all of this and you hear this momentum and I think, uh, that together we’re really well poised. I think Microsoft is in a unique position together with you. [00:10:07] Nina Harding: On this frame, we have Agent 365, which helps you manage all these different agents, right? So that’s an exciting. How many of you’re familiar with agents? 365. Great. And I promise I’m not a product person. I’m not gonna do a lot of pitches, so don’t worry about that, um, at all. But, uh, we also have copilot studio and foundry, and so we have this whole, uh, set of capability, but that capability only comes to life if we’re able to connect with the customer, build the outcome, and making sure that the CEOs see all of us as their partners on that strategy and journey. [00:10:47] Nina Harding: So what does that look like? So I talked a little bit about signals, and signals, is that ability to listen to the, to the customers, what’s really, really me, uh, meaningful and frontier firms are doing this on a consistent basis all the time. Listening to the specific needs use cases, et cetera. So we at Microsoft have been trying to not only share all these different use cases that we have exposure to, but in addition. [00:11:17] Nina Harding: We turned on functionality, and I’ll talk about that in a little bit so that we can also share amongst each other as a community and understand those use cases. Uh, what’s really important is that, um, we’re moving from this world of all these like little one-off projects to a strategy and a platform that everyone wants to move to, but it’s all also getting powered by agents. [00:11:42] Nina Harding: That’s, that’s where we are today. So. [00:11:49] Nina Harding: Having a little trouble. I’m not gonna go through this too. Everyone’s familiar with this in, in here, the Frontier overview. If you’re not, let me know. Um, but basically one of the things that we find is really helpful is, is just sharing where we have seen proof behind having the conversation around the AI journey. [00:12:12] Nina Harding: Around the, the customer journey as you’re going out there. Um, there are really four different areas that we’ve talked about, and I’m not going to drain this ’cause there’s lots and you can, you can, uh, go onto the internet. You can see me talking about all these different areas. I don’t wanna spend too much time here, but these are four of the different. [00:12:33] Nina Harding: I would say categories where when you’re looking at different ways that you can make a material difference with the, the, the customer that we find the most momentum. So around enriching employee experiences, changing the way we, uh, engage with customers. Uh, changing processes as well. And then, uh, the outcomes, like really transforming the way we go about business. [00:12:59] Nina Harding: And we wanna do something about bringing it in to the flow of the work, everyday work. How many of you are finding that you’re actually using agents in your day-to-day workflow? Isn’t that cool? And then as you continue to use it, it becomes easier and easier and easier. And. I know from my team, I’m starting to look at what is the e everyday usage versus the monthly usage, right? [00:13:26] Nina Harding: It’s the every day. It’s become almost, uh, your second hand. And what’s important, uh, on this is that we’re giving, uh, listening to all these signals giving, um, the consistency, um, of the, the engagement with. With the clients, we’re able to all share the same stories and be able to scale at a much faster pace. [00:13:54] Nina Harding: So what does that look like? Here we go. Um, one of the things that we talk about at Microsoft, and the reason why I have this up here is that we’ve moved the conversation away from product into these customer outcomes, which really becomes about. Industry discussion. You have to speak their voice. You have to understand their business problems. [00:14:21] Nina Harding: You have to listen for what is materially different. So I’m actually sharing this, which you don’t normally see in a lot of presentations out to Microsoft about the structure of the organization, the takeaway. This is a sales organization in enterprise. The takeaway that I want you to have from that is look at the verticalization. [00:14:43] Nina Harding: We’ve done. It’s no longer by territory. The ball has moved, the conversation has moved entirely. So what does that say to all of you as well? Your value proposition as you’re working with our field has to be verticalized. The way you engage has to be verticalized. What you say, um, what the, the outcomes that you think differentiates yourself. [00:15:12] Nina Harding: Verticalized. So there isn’t the approach of like doing this like mask gorilla campaign across, for example, the Americas. And I’m just using this as an example on, um, the small and medium business side as well. Um, the, they’re a little bit more territory based still, but um, at least at the enterprise, everything has to be about customer value. [00:15:38] Nina Harding: Customer value. So, um, what this also suggests to me is the way we’re working and where we’ve seen a lot of success is when all of you are starting to tailor your messages and differentiate yourselves by customer success stories. Use cases where you’ve had premise, uh, penetration as a software partner, but you have to tie it back to the industry again. [00:16:05] Nina Harding: It’s just different. And so if I’m very transparent that that’s become, has gone from a nice to have to critical as the field is looking at, who are those go-to partners? It’s the go-to partners that speak retail. It’s the go-to partners that speak oil and gas and I don’t know, I, I, I see some nodding of heads. [00:16:27] Nina Harding: Some people know this, some people don’t. But I can see the shift tremendously over the last six months. So, um, hopefully that’s helpful in, in, in kind of sharing just how we’re walking the walk and talking the talk. So as I go back to industry, um, I thought what would be helpful is to take a few examples so you have a chance to see. [00:16:52] Nina Harding: In life, what are, what are we actually seeing at Microsoft? And if you guys are seeing something else, I would love to hear that too. But these, this is an example in healthcare and when we’re looking at, uh, a particular industry, we’re looking at what are some of the pain points? What are the top trends? [00:17:11] Nina Harding: What are some of the challenges folks are, are facing? And then what are the use cases that are really making traction here? This is a different way of taking that frontier vision and doing that click down by industry. And so what we’re also doing is we’re looking at who are partners that can help us in healthcare that can help answer some of these key challenges. [00:17:35] Nina Harding: Who are the ones that have the ability to have those material conversations in that trust? In healthcare, for example, there’s a ton of pressure. I mean. We all are consumers of healthcare. Hopefully we, all of us, have been lucky enough to have healthcare, um, in the, in this, uh, forum, but there’s a lot of clinician burnout, rising costs, right? [00:18:01] Nina Harding: The, the expense for, uh, medicines and so forth. But more importantly, we want to serve more and more people faster, and AI is coming in and having a very practical approach. Healthcare alone. So many of you, I talk about, um, the fact that at one point I was paralyzed, right? So I was paralyzed from T two down and, um, I go in every six months for an MRI, uh, to check, to check if everything’s still functioning. [00:18:32] Nina Harding: And the nervous system is going well. My doctor has had to manually look at that. Now he’s using AI to look at. History and the progression since 2008. That’s game changing. And on top of that, he is looking at me and having a conversation and looking in my eyes and observing me instead and using Dragon to have it feel epic to really think about how that’s changed my personal experience with the healthcare system and changed how a physician can show up. [00:19:09] Nina Harding: So there are many, many, um, many use cases around like patient access and, uh, innovation that we’re trying to do, surgeries, uh, being able to do clinical, clinical trials, but AI is everywhere and that’s what’s really important is that we’re figuring out for all of you what your software solution. Services offering, or even if you’re selling that, you have that value, value proposition down at that level. [00:19:43] Nina Harding: So let’s take a look at retail, for example. We have a short little video. Are we gonna be able to run that video? This is where we’re seeing a lot of shrinking. Margins, people wanting more, uh, intimacy with their customer. Here we go. [00:21:09] Nina Harding: Are we good? Well, that was a quite, uh, quite a nice, uh, uh, digital response to the end of the video. But what you’re seeing is people are using it in all different facets as we go into an example. I always love to do, use examples of partners that are hitting the mark ’cause we can all learn from ’em and myself included. [00:21:30] Nina Harding: We’re partners that are really successful. I chose to use Cognizant. Cognizant was actually our partner Si of the year, um, at the Americas level. And one of the things, and I won’t drain it on, um, the right hand side of this, uh, the slide, but they really are helping the customer’s move in a framework approach by industry, uh, to an AI landscape. [00:21:58] Nina Harding: Uh, they, they have secured an end-to-end solution and they’re focused on real business outcomes, and they have been growing at over 30% year over year. Huge. That’s great. Right? That’s what we all want for our businesses. And so what you’re seeing here is. They have a narrative around the frontier firms and they pull that through when they’re engaged in the clients and with our field. [00:22:27] Nina Harding: And then they’re using the incentives that we have. And don’t worry, I have a slide on some of the incentives we have, um, to actually make sure that they’re using those effectively in the pre-sales motion, but most importantly on the adoption and the change management after they’ve actually, uh, built out the solutions. [00:22:45] Nina Harding: And that’s really, really, really key here. So here’s an example of, um, of Cognizant at Coldwater Creek and Soft Surroundings. They had two different platforms and they brought it all together and then they brought Dynamics in as well. And what they have actually been able to do is improve a lot of the inventory management, the visualization, um, of all the inventory around. [00:23:14] Nina Harding: Around all of their stores and their warehouses, and they’ve been able to streamline the fulfillment and improved, uh, reduced back orders. What you’re seeing is those are all concrete examples of the outcomes that they were trying to drive for at the beginning, and those were all. Key pain points. And so they go in, cognizant will go in and understand with what are the material things that you are, that’s keeping you up at night, that is creating that drainage, uh, in your accounts or if you could transform, what does that look like? [00:23:52] Nina Harding: And so there, they spend the whole conversation together with Microsoft focused on doing that. And then we do the outcome based proposal. Very different, right? It creates for a much stronger vendor relationship, and the customer feels like they really have in the essence of the word partners, helping them to be successful. [00:24:15] Nina Harding: Right. [00:24:20] Nina Harding: Here we go. So I promised you some of the incentives, and I know you might just take a, a quick peek at some of these. These are, these are, um, some of the incentives that. Microsoft has put forward to help our partners on this journey. Uh, this is a slide that we’ve created from the America’s perspective to try and simplify it. [00:24:42] Nina Harding: Now there’s a lot behind it, right? But to try and help simplify, um, where are the incentives available? And I think this is one of the first times you’re actually saying what’s available for the sis. Versus for the software partners. And then we’re gonna hear more today about what’s also available for the channel partners as well. [00:25:03] Nina Harding: Um, it’s really thinking about what is your behavior as a partner? How are you showing up? How are, uh, you making a contribution to that customer? And then how can Microsoft best support you in that journey? So there’s all sorts of, uh, all sorts of incentives here, and it’s really, uh, designed to be flexible to what you need. [00:25:24] Nina Harding: But for the, I, I think it’s very focused on the value proposition as well that you bring to the table. So, um, I encourage you to take a look at this, make sure that you have this in your diary or your flipping of, of how are we maximizing, um, deals. And we can certainly go through a lot more of this. And we have webinars and so forth that will take you through all of that. [00:25:52] Nina Harding: Alright, so. I’ve talked a lot about this outcome-based selling, and that’s, it’s literally how Microsoft is starting to move forward on how do we go about engaging with the customers and with our partners. You’re gonna see, because our customers are asking more Microsoft involved and for us to go jointly into the opportunities. [00:26:16] Nina Harding: Not that we necessarily, we’re not building out a larger consulting force or anything like that, but. We want to make sure that the customer ask that Microsoft is engaged in working with our partners, is honored, um, and that we’re, we’re part of that, and that we’re also sharing our, our experiences and learning from all of you at the same time on who has the best, uh, approach, Beth best, best methodologies and best practices to light up our customers together. [00:26:51] Nina Harding: But the ROI doesn’t really show up just in dollars alone. We all know this, right? Um, it could be in, uh. Satisfaction it could be in care. So as you’re starting to look at this new evolution of how we’re really landing the value proposition of ai, we have to think outside of the box that it’s not just monetary and it’s not, I think you said savings or securing funds and so forth, but it’s really of how do I leapfrog into the modern world? [00:27:22] Nina Harding: How do I change that entire experience and think outside of the box? And, uh, make sure that the conversation is not just about how do we optimize certain practices, but how do we have this more executive level strategy conversation on the future of how we’re gonna engage with our clients, uh, their clients in a much more, um, I think transformative and personal [00:27:51] Nina Harding: way as we go forward. [00:27:54] Nina Harding: So we know that if the outcomes are the, what we’re looking to go drive, the next question is really how do we go do that? And that is gonna be through the agents on here. You’ll see just from from out in the market, what we see will light up the market. We think that, or I can’t even say we, IIDC says 81% of leaders are expecting agents. [00:28:24] Nina Harding: Full utilization in the next 12 to 18 months. And to be honest, I think this quote is probably even two months old. So we’re already, we’re probably down to like, you know, eight, eight to 12 months. And what I’m seeing that proliferation happening, it’s crazy. So understanding that value proposition, um, whether you’re from a software company or a services company or even some of our resellers, what’s that niche? [00:28:52] Nina Harding: What’s that industry or sub-industry? What is that? Horizontal. I go after customer service within, uh, the manufacturing vertical. Right. And then are you building out agents or do you have capability? And that’s what we’re doing internally at Microsoft as well, is to help make that really visible to the field so that you’re differentiated. [00:29:15] Nina Harding: Differentiation is gonna be really key right now because there’s so many people that say, oh, I do migration services, or I can help with data, or I can do security. But it’s the specificity around the industry and what you are truly known for within that space. So one of the things that we look to do is, is looking at all of the different areas where we see agents popping up. [00:29:44] Nina Harding: And this is a helpful slide. Sometimes I think, um, it starts to highlight, um, where we’re seeing some traction in financial services. Or in healthcare manufacturing. And then when I talk about the horizontals or the personas, you start to see some of the um, really repeatable, high return on investment type of things. [00:30:08] Nina Harding: Is this resonating with some of you guys? Yeah. I’m seeing a hit, a lot of head nods. This, if you’re on the services side, right? We’re in an intimate setting. This is where I encourage you to try and build an agent, right? Package that agent, put it on marketplace, make that available, and then make that known to our field sales organization. [00:30:27] Nina Harding: ’cause they are looking for quick wins along those lines. [00:30:31] Nina Harding: So on that, um, [00:30:36] Nina Harding: uh, one of the things that we’re along the journey for is the skilling. This is moving at such a fast pace, right? Um, so you’re looking at. Um, anthropic is really a big topic right now, right? Gemini, you’re looking at cloud, you’re, um, or Claude. [00:30:55] Nina Harding: Um, you’re looking at all of these different, uh, scenarios and one of the things at Microsoft is we really wanna be open to all of these different technologies because our customers are open. So we want to be part of taking you on that journey. And one of the things that we invest in white. [00:31:12] Nina Harding: Significantly is all of the training. Um, and I wanna encourage you guys to take advantage of it. Training is not a one-time thing. It is, it is a constant muscle that you must exercise. So as I come to my conclusion, I have a couple three key things, right? One is really understanding what your superpower is, right? [00:31:33] Nina Harding: The partners that I’m finding are really aligned well with the field are really winning. Those stories are the ones that have. Know and can articulate their superpowers. What am I known for? What are the use cases I can either build to or have agents against? And where have I done this consistently? And packaged really, really concretely, right? [00:31:55] Nina Harding: Um, this, this proliferate of like, I can do everything. Unfortunately, you get lost a little bit in the noise, right? So clear positioning, proof point’s, so critical right now, and reinforcing that credibility with the clients that have adopted. The second thing is that you’ve heard a little bit about this hopefully. [00:32:16] Nina Harding: How many of you have heard of the part partner success story? Okay, this is really, really key. We launched about maybe a month ago, and we already have over a hundred, uh, stories from partners, and the field is loving it. What it is is it brands the stories with your brand if you submit them. So what? Talk about credibility, um, with the field and with our marketers to have your name and that recognition picked up. [00:32:45] Nina Harding: It’s really, really fantastic. So I encourage you to do that. For those of you taking quick snaps, I did put a code on here, so if you wanna go straight to it, uh, you can take it. Um, and go explore with it. What’s nice about it is it’s AI based, so it will help you write these stories very, very quickly. [00:33:04] Nina Harding: There’s no reason why your sales reps can’t be writing these stories, and then yes, [00:33:11] Nina Harding: uh, yeah, you can do no meaning like from enterprise. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You can do it on any, on any, there is a different level of fidelity of if you have the customer’s permission. Right. Um, to pu to publish it or not. And that’s some functionality we’re working on. If there’s enough traction of, of this is to help you guys. [00:33:32] Nina Harding: Secure that with Microsoft. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it can be any customer there. But I encourage you to take a look at that. And I know I’m two minutes over here, so I’m just gonna leave you with this. Um, at the end of the day, as I, as I wrap up here, I just wanna make sure that what, where we’re going and we’re going together, that it’s simple and actionable between us and it’s easy for our field to understand. [00:34:00] Nina Harding: Where you play the value proposition you play so that we’re going into deals even more effectively together. Right? So you heard industry, sub-industry, persona level or horizontal. Put that in if, um. Figuring out what your superpower is, making sure that you’re trained, that there’s evidence around the success, and capturing that in ways, uh, that are critical to not only your business, but giving us the visibility of that success. [00:34:31] Nina Harding: Like scream from the rack rafters. Use these tools to make sure that we know just how transformational you’ve been in some of the customers and where you’re uniquely winning. So, so important. So keep investing in the skilling. You can see my kind of like five power plays, right? And the last one always being that superpowers. [00:34:56] Nina Harding: So with that, um, if we do all of these things consistently, you won’t just be keeping up with ai. I think we will all be leading on that AI mission. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. [00:35:14] Vince Menzione: Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.

Ped & Burk are back for more March Madness & hot takes! To start things off Adam rates Ryan's dance skills from the local dance night he participated in. Adam is still hungry from a cooking video he saw the other day and has to tell y'all about it. The boys give their takes on the Jim Carrey controversy. It's then time for Burk's perfect song and we are upset with Copyright Law. In the meat, Mm!, of the episode we discuss the first round of this year's Kid's Shows bracket before giving our thoughts on how round 2 might play out. We also draft a roster of all-time 90s sitcom characters! LOADED DRAFT CLASS ALERT. The boys remember a beautiful childhood Saturday morning to close the show.Hut Hut! Love y'all.

股市受到美以伊全面開戰的影響，本週稍早不論美、亞、歐股全部出現回調的現象，甚至連最被親睞的避險資產「黃金」都跌了。不過美股在錄音前一天反彈，那斯達克吞噬了本週的跌幅，而在錄音的當天，亞洲股市普遍大漲。 但在荷姆茲海峽的運輸狀況幾乎停擺的情況下，原油價格仍持續攀升。本集就邀請原物料研究員 Jason 來聊聊，美以伊全面開戰的細節、影響、還有後續的看法。

Hilary Berning - Gio's Garden On the Unrealistic Timelines of Insurance Companies: "It's a 6 to 9 month process just to get a wheelchair. I really need some way to get my son from point A to point B." Families with special needs children already have some challenges.  These families need help and some guidance on where they can get this help.  This is where Gio's Garden comes in. Gio's Garden is a one-of-a-kind therapeutic respite center based in Middleton, Wisconsin, and recently expanded to Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Their essential mission: to provide safe, enriching respite care for children with special needs aged 0–7, giving parents the chance to take a break, run errands, or simply breathe. Hilary Berning shares the struggles many of these families face.  From finding a place to care for your child temporarily since you can't just leave your medically complex child with the teenager down the block. Gio's Garden fills that gap with one-on-one care, specially trained staff, and a joyful, home-like atmosphere. Their houses are filled with arts, crafts, sensory rooms, gym equipment, and caring people who “never like to say no” to a family in need. Listen as Hilary explains the needs and complexities of these children and their families and how Gio's Garden is a place that is doing all they can to help these children and their families. Enjoy! Visit at: https://giosgarden.org/ Sponsors: Live Video chat with our customers here with LiveSwitch: https://join.liveswitch.com/gfj3m6hnmguz Some videos have been recorded with Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm/?utm_campaign=campaign_5&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=rewardful&via=james-kademan   Podcast Overview: 00:00 "Local, Unique, Community Focused" 06:03 Supporting Families Through CLTS 08:49 Greek Life Fundraising Show 11:10 "Sanfilippo Syndrome Journey Shared" 13:51 "Growth, Funding, and Strategic Planning" 19:18 Franchise Expansion Plans 20:56 Inclusive Childcare and Respite Plan 25:14 Emergency Presidency Amid Crisis 27:07 "Sun Prairie Location Announcement" 30:07 "Navigating a Life-Changing Diagnosis" 35:42 Sun Prairie Studio Renovation Details 38:07 Wiseman Center Connection Insights 40:48 "Planning Ahead for Kids' Safety" 44:38 "New Podcast Venture Launch" 47:10 "Reinventing With Youthful Engagement" 51:00 Nonprofits: Vital, Challenging, Impactful 52:00 Supporting Local Nonprofits Podcast Transcription: Hilary Berning [00:00:00]: Um, because you have the big nationwide organizations, right? Make-A-Wish, Boys and Girls, like they're all over the nation. They've got nationwide people telling them what to do when providing all these things. And then you have organizations like mine, like there's no one else that does this. We are the only one that does it. We're doing it on our own. We are local. We're serving local people. All the money stays here and goes back to the kids. Hilary Berning [00:00:22]: People can really think that through a little bit where we don't have We are local, we're serving local, and we're doing good. Goal and focus on those nonprofits. James Kademan [00:00:35]: You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumph and successes of business owners across the land. Downloadable audio episodes can be found on the podcast link from drawincustomers.com. We are locally underwritten by the Bank of Sun Prairie, and today we're welcoming slash preparing to learn from Hillary Berning of Gio's Garden. So Hillary, how is it going today? Hilary Berning [00:00:58]: I'm good. Thanks for having me. James Kademan [00:01:00]: So let's start with the foundation here. What is Gio's Garden? Hilary Berning [00:01:03]: So Gio's Garden, so we are a respite center. We are located in Middleton, which is our original location, and we recently just opened a new location in Sun Prairie. James Kademan [00:01:11]: Nice. Hilary Berning [00:01:11]: So what we do is we provide therapeutic respite for children with special needs from ages 0 to age 7. So respite means to take a break. So it's really hard for parents of special needs kids to get a break. James Kademan [00:01:23]: Mm-hmm. Hilary Berning [00:01:23]: Because you can't just leave your special needs child with the teenager down the street. So we provide that opportunity for them to come leave their child with us and they can go and have a break. James Kademan [00:01:33]: Nice. So when you say special needs, tell me the gamut there. Hilary Berning [00:01:36]: We will see, um, everyone with, from autism to cerebral palsy to diabetes, to babies who have had strokes in utero to rare genetic disorders. We have kids with seizure disorders, so we kind of really don't say no very often. There's a few higher-grade medical needs that we can't see, like if they would have a tracheostomy or something like that. But otherwise, we don't— our motto is we don't like to say no. James Kademan [00:02:04]: Fair. And what does the care look like? Because I imagine it's not just an empty room. Hilary Berning [00:02:09]: It isn't, no. So our original location in Middleton, it's a house. It's a 100-year-old house. But we have specific rooms set up for different activities. So we have a sensory room. A lot of our kids have sensory sensory issues. So it's a quiet, subdued room where they can go and have quiet time. We have a reading room. Hilary Berning [00:02:26]: We have an arts and craft room. We have a gym that has swings that hang from the ceiling and an indoor play structure that kids can play on. Wow. Um, in Middleton, we also have outdoor, um, fenced-in yards so kids can run around and we have a place, a play structure out there as well. James Kademan [00:02:42]: Okay. I imagine you need people to be there present, right? Hilary Berning [00:02:45]: Absolutely. Yes. James Kademan [00:02:46]: It sounds like you'd need a lot. Hilary Berning [00:02:47]: We need a lot of staff. Yeah. So we provide one-on-one care. Oh, you do? Oh, wow. For every child that's in our care, they have an adult with them. James Kademan [00:02:54]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:02:55]: So we currently have, including our executive director, 6 full-time employees. And then we have around 24 part-time employees that kind of comes and goes depending on the semester. James Kademan [00:03:06]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:03:06]: And then we have a ton of volunteers that work with us. We are blessed to be in the Madison area where we have 3 colleges essentially that we can pull from and a lot of students who are going into medical fields or educational fields or occupational therapy or recreational therapy who need experience working with children with special needs. So we're able to provide that opportunity for them. So we're lucky that we have a large pool of students to pull from. James Kademan [00:03:33]: That's amazing. Hilary Berning [00:03:34]: But also means we have a lot of turnover and their availability changes every semester. James Kademan [00:03:38]: So that's just the nature of students. Hilary Berning [00:03:40]: It's just the nature of the, the, our staff that we work with just because we working with students, but we're blessed to have them and we, we give to them just as much as they give to us. James Kademan [00:03:50]: So nice. Hilary Berning [00:03:50]: It's really great. James Kademan [00:03:52]: So I got a lot of questions for you. Hilary Berning [00:03:53]: Nice. James Kademan [00:03:53]: So I'm gonna try to keep on task somehow. How do you let the students know that you exist even as an opportunity for them? Hilary Berning [00:04:00]: So we are on like all the job boards, like through the university and we're well connected within the different disciplines in the universities at Edgewood and at UW and at, is it Madison College? MATC? I don't— sure. James Kademan [00:04:13]: Sounds good. Hilary Berning [00:04:13]: Yeah. Yeah. So we are heavily involved in word word just kind of has gotten out about us and the people. And there's a special program, especially at UW-Madison, where they can get— part of a class credit is to volunteer at organizations. So they know about us. So they send a lot of students our way as well. James Kademan [00:04:29]: Gotcha. I imagine there's an interview process. Hilary Berning [00:04:32]: There is. Yep. There is an interview process. It's not just like, hey, come on in. Yes. There's a background check that we put all of our employees through. And it all varies depending on if you're coming in as a volunteer basis or you're coming in as a paid employee. James Kademan [00:04:44]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:04:44]: Because your level of Um, if you're coming in as a volunteer, you're kind of paired with a full-time or part-time paid staff member, um, versus we won't just have 6 volunteers and 6 kids in the house at once. We will have paid staff to kind of help balance with that. James Kademan [00:05:01]: All right, let's talk funding. Hilary Berning [00:05:03]: Funding is— with nonprofits, yes, it is. My life revolves around funding quite a bit. James Kademan [00:05:08]: With for-profits, it's a big deal. Hilary Berning [00:05:10]: It really is. Yes. James Kademan [00:05:11]: Tell me a story. The parents of the children, are they paying? Hilary Berning [00:05:15]: They, yes and no. So when we first, when they first started opening Gio's Garden back in 2012 is when they opened their doors. It was a small subset of parents that got together and be like, we need help, we need help. We have special needs kids and there's no one to help us. So they, the idea of Gio's Garden was born. It's named after Charlotte de Lassiter. She used to be on Channel 3 News and her husband, Ron, it's their son Gio. Okay.

Monongalia County Sheriff Todd Forbes on the MONSTER pothole on I-79 southbound at MM 148.5Josh Brady and John Helmick from the Department of Mining and Industrial Extension on theirlatest competition in Canada, training the U.S. Border Patrol, and the future of the program. The 72nd Mountaineer Reese Allen Marion County Schools superintendent Donna Heston on her contract situation. 

Kiera is joined by Derick Van Ness of Big Life Financial to talk about taxes, and how to handle them beyond simply thinking of them as a necessary evil. The pair discuss knowing your numbers, utilizing tax credits, the magic touch of a CPA, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team Listeners, this is Kiera. And today I am super excited. This is one of our top favorite guests that has been on the podcast. We're bringing him back on because there are some new updates and our clients love him. I love him. He is incredible. Derick Van Ness, he is with Big Life Financial. And you might have heard him on the podcast before talking about R &D credits, tax saving ideas, CPA.   This man does a lot of your wealth and how to build and keep your wealth. So I always love our conversations and just like his good information. Plus, if I remember right, he might know Garrett Gunderson. So obviously I've been a fangirl since day one. Derick, welcome back to the show. How are you today?   Derick Van Ness (00:42) Well, I'm doing great and really happy to be here with you, Kiera. I'm not Garrett Gunderson because he is taller and better looking, but I'm a good second place.   The Dental A Team (00:48) Ha ha ha!   I think that you're great. The fact that you know Garrett Gunderson, that already just has elevated you. I mean, I think it was one of our first conversations we ever had. And I was like, have you ever read like Killing Sacred Cows? And you're like, I actually know Garrett Gunderson. I was like, what? Fangirling. So ⁓ anyway, Derick, for those who have not met you, haven't heard your episode, because we do have new listeners to the podcast. Just kind of give them a little intro of who is Derick Bennis? What is Big Life Financial? And give the listeners a little intro to who you are.   Derick Van Ness (01:20) Okay, well outside of being ⁓ in love with my wife, in love with art and in love with racing sailboats, what I do professionally is I help ⁓ doctors and dentists to be smarter with their money. So what does that mean? That means how do you, not so much to make it, I mean we do help people scale, but once you make the money, which is something a lot of dentists are good at, how do you keep it through tax savings? How do you grow it and how do you protect it, right?   And today we're going to talk a little bit about how do you keep more what you make? Because honestly, for dentists, even though taxes seem boring when you don't have to write that $50,000 or $100,000 or $200,000 check, it gets a lot cooler. If you would have told me I'd be a tax and financial guy when I was a kid, I probably would have just taken an early exit somewhere and jumped off a bridge. But I really see money in what we do as a lifestyle business. It's not about money.   The Dental A Team (02:01) Yeah.   Derick Van Ness (02:17) If you have enough, then money is what it is. When you don't have enough, it's a problem. And I just find for a lot of people, it's the reason or excuse that they constrain themselves. They don't spend time with family. They don't think do things that they want to do. They don't have the experiences that are going to change their life. So when we can get money out of the way, then you can live your big life, which is why the company's big life financial, because it doesn't matter if you have more or less money. The question is, what's the life you're living? What's your quality of life?   And so taxes are a big piece of that. Obviously we can't talk about everything on a podcast like this, because you'd be buried under a ton of bricks. But that's what I do is I try to make this stuff easy. I try to make it fun. And I want you to realize that the whole point of all this money stuff is so that you can live a life you want to   The Dental A Team (02:55) You   Which Derick, that's why we have connected. You have met my husband. have had personal conversations outside of the podcast because I very much align and subscribe to this lifestyle and this mode of thinking. I believe that practices should work for us and us not work for our practices. I believe that we became business owners to have these big lives and these, audacious dreams. And yet I feel so many people live below their, their potential. They are trapped. They are.   Derick Van Ness (03:33) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (03:34) It's crazy. I ⁓ had a client and she actually made so much money last year, which was amazing because the year before she was like, Kiera, I want to make more. So I was like, great, we're going after profit and production like blinders on. Don't talk to me about anything else. And she had like a crazy year and she's like, great. Now I have this huge check. I've got to write in taxes. And I was like, not my problem. Like you need better CPA help on that, but glad we made you the money. But I bring that up because one, it was a huge win for a client, but two,   Derick Van Ness (03:52) I don't know.   Yep.   The Dental A Team (04:02) I think that people being able to keep the money that they make, hold on to more money that they make. Like I love that we live in America and it's a free country and that we get to pay taxes. Like I'm so freaking grateful for that. With that said, I do not want to pay one penny more than I need to. And I want to maintain and keep as much as I possibly can to live the life I want and to not feel the guilt of being a successful business owner and to do the fun things that I always imagined and dreamed of doing without the guilt of doing it. And I think so many people are so scared of.   Derick Van Ness (04:11) Yep.   The Dental A Team (04:32) being financially free, they're scared to spend money. They get hit with tax burdens left and right. I can't tell you how many dentists that I hear at the end of their career and they've had great careers, but they have no financial stability. like, Derick, this is the stuff that stresses me out and keeps me up at night and which is why you're on the podcast because I want people to be smarter. want them to be more educated and I want them to live happier lives. So let's walk through like R and D credits and CPA and like how people can live a more enriched   Derick Van Ness (04:33) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   The Dental A Team (05:02) big life today rather than waiting. I think it's just a fun topic to talk about. I'm intrigued, so let's talk about it.   Derick Van Ness (05:07) Yeah   Well, let's do. mean, we can start generally with taxes and then we can kind of move into the credits piece because it is like a it's just a small very segmented piece of what you do with your taxes. overall, the biggest thing I see is most people see taxes as like a necessary evil. This is the thing I have to deal with. When people see something as a necessary evil, what do they do? They do the minimum. Right. And what that really turns into is   You're not talking with your CPA. You're not coordinating with them. You're not being proactive. At the end of the year, you just want to do the least. So you just hand them all your stuff. I realize people don't come in boxes anymore. Now it's like, here's my QuickBooks password. Or I add you to my account. ⁓ And then they tell you how much you owe. But if you ran your business that way, if you just didn't look at anything all year, and at the end of the year, you're like, I wonder how we did. Wouldn't go so well if you didn't talk to your team about anything. What's that?   The Dental A Team (06:01) People do that though, Derick. They do it all the   time. This is not abnormal. They do it all the time. They're like, my gosh, I owe how much? my gosh, we didn't hit goal. And I'm like, ⁓ let's at least look at our numbers. Like that's step one. Step two, let's talk to our team. You're not wrong. I'm just shocked at how many people do this in real life. And I'm like, hey, there's a different way of living. like, maybe let's take that path. Just try it out. It's like t-shirt. Try that one on. It might feel better than your current oversized, like two baggy of clothes that don't fit. And then you're angry.   Derick Van Ness (06:11) I know.   The Dental A Team (06:30) the time. anyway go on didn't mean to interrupt the rant.   Derick Van Ness (06:32) What if I'm gonna be   a Gen Z VSCO girl? I I want the Oversight T-shirt and the angst.   The Dental A Team (06:36) Well, as I said it, as I   said it, I was like, well, that's like the current style. Like what's uncomfortable clothing? Maybe it's like the wool scratchy. I just came back from Iceland and I'll tell you what, I didn't buy a single shirt there. I was like, that is gonna scratch me. I know it's warm, but I'm not wearing that for the rest of time. Like there are softer clothes in this world that are equally as warm. Like I'll choose that. So that maybe you're wearing a wool scratchy sweater. Cause you never look at your numbers. You're always irritable. You're always angry.   Maybe you might get the oversized hoodie that's way more comfy. Maybe that's the better analogy for today.   Derick Van Ness (07:07) Well, and so you help them look at their numbers, right? What's your P &L? What are your KPIs? There are tax numbers too, right? Like I'm usually meeting with clients in September-ish to say, OK, how much have you made so far this year? What does that put us on track for December 31st? And then we have November, I'm sorry, September, October, November, December to do things to get that number at the end where you want it to be. I'm not talking about go out and spend $1.   to save $0.40, right? People do that. Oh, go buy a car. If you don't need a car, that's just a waste of money. I literally had someone who's like, should I just buy a G-Wagon? I'm like, only if you were going to buy a G-Wagon anyway. They want the tax break, but.   The Dental A Team (07:45) I mean, I asked that question too.   I mean, I do. I do ask it as well, but it's unnecessary. You're right. Like, so I can repel you you're not going to do it. Don't just because you get the tax benefit. You just have to pay the money. So, but I do ask because I want to know, just tell me I can buy the boat, Derick.   Derick Van Ness (07:58) Yeah.   Well, boats are totally different. They're way more fun, but they're also way more expensive to maintain. So I love boats. I absolutely do. But they are not cheap, right? As the saying goes, break out another 1,000. That's what boat stands for. Just go to the ocean and throw $1,000 in it every month. That's what owning a boat's like if you don't use it.   The Dental A Team (08:05) They are not. I know.   gosh, I've never heard that.   That's hilarious.   That's hilarious. I've heard like the best day and worst day of owning a boat is the day you buy it and the day you sell it. Like that's the only best days. I have a boat. I do love the boat. It is an older boat. things I'm not... Maybe mine's like break out a 10 because we've got a much older boat. But like, know, when we upgrade then we'll be in the thousand realm. ⁓   Derick Van Ness (08:28) So.   Yep.   Yeah.   Yes, yes. So boats are great. Not usually the best tax strategy. But the big thing here is when you sail a boat or when you drive a car, I heard this the other day and I thought it was perfect. It's like when you drive a car, what's bigger, the windshield or the rear view mirror? Most people are doing taxes in the rear view mirror. That is not about your expansive future. That's about recording your past, right? And so if you just did business planning one year at a time,   Like you wouldn't ever buy the building. You wouldn't ever invest in the equipment. You wouldn't ever invest in the education, right? It's the same thing for taxes. It is part of a cohesive and ongoing plan. ⁓ so when you want to plan that, we have to look into the future. And so looking into the future allows you to control your income, control your expenses. But you have to know your numbers to your point, right? Like if you don't understand a P &L,   It's really hard to do tax work because we don't know what your income is. And I have some clients who come in that way. And I have to really get them to understand that if you don't have good books, you don't have good data, it's like trying to do dentistry without a diagnostic. You just go in and start drilling teeth to see what's happening. No, you wouldn't do dentistry that way. Don't do that way with your taxes either. should I just buy this and I'll just buy that and randomly and I help those work out?   Your P &L is really like your diagnostic, right? Both on the income side, but also that's related to taxes. And so I think the big thing for people is think of taxes as an additional income stream. If you do this right, you can keep, like a lot of dentists pay 40 % or more in taxes, right? So if we can cut that from 40 down to 20 to 25 % on average, that's 15 % straight to your bottom line.   And it probably takes an average of two hours a month at most, which is pretty good, right? Like if you could add a new service into your business, no employees, no marketing, no overhead, two hours a month, but profits went up by 15%, would you take it? Most dentists would say, yeah, that six figures is pretty good.   The Dental A Team (10:53) As long as I'm not going to jail, Derick,   I don't want to go to jail. That's my only line. Like, how is this legal? Because so many people talk about tax strategy and my line is I'm willing to live in the gray, I'm just not willing to go to jail. So how do you go from 40 to 20 that's legal and ethical?   Derick Van Ness (11:01) you   Yeah, we don't want to go to jail.   Yeah, so there's two things. There are lots of little things. So research and development credits, which we'll get to in a minute, is one of those things. It's not little. I would call it a medium thing. For a lot of dentists, it's worth between $10, depending on the size of your clinic, $10,000 $50,000 a year. So it's sizable. And then there's all the pay your kids, cost segregation, salary and dividends, all that kind of stuff. And those things stack up. If you pay your kids right, then that can save you   The Dental A Team (11:21) I agree, I would too.   Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (11:40) 10, 15 grand if you're in a state where you can pay your state taxes and have a federal write-off that might save you 10, 15, 20 thousand dollars a year. Taking a salary, the proper salary versus dividends that might save you another 10 or 15 thousand. So these things start to stack up but when you're in that 500,000 plus tax bracket there are things like and I can't totally get into details because this is stuff for accredited investors and I don't know who the listeners are and all that but there are   Investments you can make that have big tax breaks, right? And that could be everything from energy types of things to short-term rentals, different types of real estate. There's a lot of different stuff, right? So that sort of depends on what's the life you want to build and aligning that. ⁓ There are lots of charitable and donation type strategies where you can create some really big tax breaks. There's entity structuring, ⁓ where you take your income and how you take your income matters.   So you can really layer all of this stuff and make huge chunks, take huge chunks out of your business. The bigger you are, the bigger you can do with these things. And honestly, once you get over a million plus in income, then there's another layer of stuff you can do. It's just a lot of times the setup costs, you have to have enough tax burden to make it worth it. But there's some really neat stuff out there. And some of the stuff with the big, beautiful bill. ⁓   bringing back bonus depreciation. There's some really neat things where, oh, if you do a solar thing, you can get some credits, but then you can also get all the depreciation in the first year. And so you put in $100,000 into this type of investment. You may not make a lot of money, but you might get $150,000, $175,000, $200,000 worth of write-offs on your taxes. And when I say write-offs, mean dollars you don't pay, like true credit dollar for dollar. That could be huge, right? Things like that.   The Dental A Team (13:10) Yes.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (13:38) that a lot of people are just unaware of. And don't take that as an investment advice. I'm just telling you about things that exist in the world that may or may not be for you. Check with your financial professional. But yeah, you start stacking all these things up and you go from, I wrote $150,000 check to, I wrote a $60,000 check. And then what I like to do is help people take that 90 grand you would have given to the government. And now let's add that to what you would already save. And for a lot of people, that's   The Dental A Team (13:47) That's amazing.   Derick Van Ness (14:07) a lot more than they were already saving. So we more than doubled their savings rate. And the fastest thing you can do to build wealth is just get more money into the equation. So that's really it is we're trying to create money that you can then put to work for you outside your business. Because what nobody ever tells you is, even if you're an amazing dentist and you make all this money and you sell your practice for top dollar, and you get all that money, you become a professional investor.   The Dental A Team (14:27) you   Derick Van Ness (14:36) And if you don't have any investment skills, if you don't know how to put that money to work, if you don't know how to protect it, you're just a lamb to the slaughter. You know, everybody shows up, they got an idea. Your brother-in-law wants to start a coffee shop or a brewery. Your neighbor has the next best tech app. And all of a sudden, all this money just starts disappearing because you're not seasoned. So one of the things we like to do is get people doing these types of investments, learning, getting a skill set around it so that when you do get that big   big shot when you sell your business or you have those huge tax or those huge years and you don't pay all the taxes, you know what to do with the money. Because that's a whole different skill set than running a dental clinic.   The Dental A Team (15:17) I don't disagree. And that's why Derick, I love having you on here. And I think your comment of the goal is to get more money to put into the equation. What are the things like, I have 90 grand or I have 150. What are some of those investments that, again, realize that we're being generic and there's a reason you have to be generic is because there are rules that financial planners, advisors, CPAs have to abide by. in general terms, Derick, what are some of the ways that   Derick Van Ness (15:25) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (15:45) you found to generate higher levels of wealth? We're putting more money into the equation, but what's the equation that's going to get it? And again, I know this is very, I would say like vanilla. We're just talking very much basic.   Derick Van Ness (15:56) Yeah, yeah, I'll just   give you the principles, right? The philosophy behind it. One of the things is we always, all of our lives we've heard diversify your assets. Diversify, diversify, diversify.   The Dental A Team (16:06) all weather portfolio, Ray Dalio, right? Like you got to get it everything, have it all. What is it like? think eight uncorrelated assets or something like that is what it should be. Anyway, there you go. Okay.   Derick Van Ness (16:09) Yep.   8 to 16 non-correlated asset   classes. Yep. And the idea here is this. It used to be that you could put your money in the stock market. And each individual stock did its thing based on what its performance was. Since the late 90s, early 2000s, everything's kind of gotten grouped together. Almost everybody just buys the S &P 500 or just buys index funds, which is basically the whole market.   And so if you look at the top five stocks, which are usually the Google, Apple, Tesla, Nvidia, depending on one or two others, ⁓ whatever they're doing is usually what the market's doing, right? It all has a tendency to ebb and flow together because it's all been chunked together. So I don't see those all as different asset classes anymore. How I personally invest, I'm not saying you need to buy into my ideas, but so you can have money there. But then I do think you want to have money in other things.   that maybe aren't tied to the stock market. Maybe you've got some oil and gas. Maybe you've got some farming communities in Central America. Maybe you've got someone who's doing senior living homes, someone who's developing all these empty office buildings. And they're all tied to different things. So that way, if the stock market takes a dump and goes down, that's not all your portfolio. Maybe it's 15 or 20%.   if real estate takes a hit. Yeah, your real estate takes a hit, but maybe something else does well. Having things in your portfolio that if some of them struggle during inflation, some of them do well during inflation, right? Things like gold that holds its value. And so the idea is to be able to put your money to work in a way where it's in a bunch of different buckets that aren't all tied to the same thing. And what that really creates is stability, right? And why that's so important is when you're growing your money,   The Dental A Team (17:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (18:09) You can have the ups and downs a little bit, but when you go to start pulling money out, the volatility, the ups and downs are what really kill your ability to pull money out, because you have to always protect against the downside. And it's why if you look at the market historically, it'll go up, depending on who you ask, 6 to 8%. But when you're pulling money out of the stock market in retirement, the numbers say sustainably over the long term, you can only pull 3 to 4%. Why is that? You would think, ⁓ I can pull.   The Dental A Team (18:21) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (18:38) six to eight, but it's three to four because of the volatility. If you are counting on that, it crashes that year and you sell. Then when the market recovers, you have less money to recover with. And over time that stacks up. So the idea there is to work with someone who has the ability to put you into different asset classes, help educate you. This also gives you a chance to try different things. So you can start to get that seasoning we were talking about and learn how money really works because   The Dental A Team (18:43) Right.   Derick Van Ness (19:09) You know, money, health and relationships are the three things that really dictate the quality of your life. And it's funny, we don't spend a lot of time in them in school, right? And so, ⁓ so it's something you have to learn, just like if you don't learn how to take care of your health, you suffer. If you don't learn how to have good relationships, you suffer. And money is another thing. All of those you can get help with, but at the end of the day, you have to be able to be competent enough.   to get the results you want. And money is just one of those things.   The Dental A Team (19:40) Yeah. No, Derick, that's a, think it's such a good way to look at it. And I will say, I was very much a baby investor and I think I still would qualify myself as pretty naive. But it is, they say like, I don't know, what is it? The eighth wonder of the world is compound interest. And it's crazy because when you start out and you just get started on your investments, it feels like this is stupid. At least I have, I've so told many financial advisors, feel like they like,   Derick Van Ness (20:04) Mm.   The Dental A Team (20:07) money monster. So it's like the cookie monster. Like I give my money to you. I never can get it back. I have no clue how to access this money. And then you start to see it and you're like, wow, that started to compound and this started to become different. And we had our first year with it. We didn't have to write such a large check to the IRS and done legally and ethically. And I was like, wow, this is a very different world that I'm living in than I have been. And it wasn't as hard as I thought. And so I, like you said, I do feel like you're   Derick Van Ness (20:11) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:33) comfort level and they do say that women tend to be better investors than men because women, we just put money in, we give it to you. We're like, here you go. We don't ever like go check it and watch the stocks. Stocks. Whereas men are like, cons I'm like looking at those stocks, like my husband checks it like 10 times a day. And I'm like, just don't even look at it. Like I don't even, it's the cookie monster, the money monster. You take the money. I know you haven't like taken it. People get angry with me. They're like, Kiera, we can't legally take your money. And I'm like, no, but I just have no clue how to access it. They're like you email. And I'm like, I know.   Derick Van Ness (20:44) Right.   Yep. In your brain, right?   The Dental A Team (21:02) but it like stocks and then I got to pay taxes and I don't understand any of it. But I will say, I think it's like PNLs, the language of money, the language of investing. It's a skill that you are learning. And I do agree, the younger you can learn this, the more time you have to recover if you make mistakes and versus having to be perfect later on in life. So I really very much subscribe to your model of thinking. And I love that. I love that you've talked about taxes, how to save, how to get it into   Derick Van Ness (21:11) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (21:31) Again, I remember I sat in a Tony Robbins wealth mastery thing. Ray Dalio was in the room. had no clue who half like Paul Tudor Jones. I think that's his name. Like so freaking smart. I had no clue who these people were. And like here you've got like five billionaires sitting in the room with us. And I was like, I had no clue. And they start talking about this stuff. And I feel like an idiot, but I will say it's an idiot that I love to be because the more I learn about the more I'm involved in it, the more you expose yourself, the more you learn how it works.   Derick Van Ness (21:38) John Paul Tudor, yeah.   Yeah, I remember.   The Dental A Team (22:00) And I think like what you're saying, Derick, I just hope people talk to your financial advisors, get your uncorrelated assets, start building that portfolio because time, like they say, you only have so much time and the best time to plant a tree was like a hundred years ago. The next best time is today. And I just, I don't want to be that person when it comes to my portfolio where I wish I would have started. All of us will wish we started sooner, but I am grateful that we started as young as we were and are building it the way we have versus   Derick Van Ness (22:23) Yes.   The Dental A Team (22:28) waiting until like, and I don't care if you haven't started then start today. If you've been doing it, figure out how you can do more. ⁓ But I think Derick, I have a question of, I always live in scarcity. So what do you tell a client like myself where I'm always afraid that I'm going to run out of money. I don't know where it comes from. It doesn't matter how much I have. I have acorns upon acorns upon acorns. I swear like you've probably can find money in my couch. I'm not that bad. I don't have it in the couch, but like,   Derick Van Ness (22:32) Yep.   The Dental A Team (22:54) How do you get to a level where you feel comfortable spending money rather than just always saving for retirement and not living today? What's the balance of that?   Derick Van Ness (23:03) Yeah, so what I've discovered working with over 2,500 people on all of this, Kiera, is like money problems don't like quote unquote go away. They just change. In the beginning, it's like, how do I make money? I don't have enough money. How do I manage the car payment or whatever? Then you make a little bit more and you're like, okay, now I'm past survival. Like, how do I start to grow? Right? So you invest in yourself, your business, your education, whatever. Then you start to grow some more.   Then you start saying, okay, now I'm growing and I'm making money and I'm living a decent life, but how do I build for the future? So it's not just the now, then it's the future, right? And then what happens is you definitely get to a point, at least I've seen this for myself and a lot of clients is you start to make a good amount of money and the problem becomes how do I make sure that this doesn't ever go away?   Right? Like now I'm living this really good life and I can travel and I can spend time with family and I can do the things that I want to do. And I can buy nice clothes or go to nice dinner or do nice things for my kids or whatever your thing is. And I don't have to think about money. But then there's this fear of like, what if I lose that? Right. And going back. And so the money problems just change. I believe it's an instinct that's built into us. Like the monkeys that ate bananas and then just stopped worrying and didn't hoard them.   ended up dying faster than the ones that hoarded them, right? And so, like, I think it's an instinct to be paranoid, to be fear-driven, and that's where we have to, as humans, understand our wiring and say, my wiring is for survival, not for happiness and fulfillment, right? Because survival is what reproduced. Happiness and fulfillment, especially in a scary world of survival, ⁓ doesn't do very well.   The Dental A Team (24:27) Sure.   Derick Van Ness (24:52) Right? So, so we have to try to rewire our brain as much as we can. ⁓ And I think the biggest thing is to focus on a big future, a big vision. When you're moving towards something, then you're not focused on moving away from something. When you're in fear, you're, moving away from something. I'm moving away from failure. I'm moving. I'm trying to avoid losing money. I'm trying to avoid running out, trying to avoid making a mistake. You know, this about business ownership, like you can't avoid the mistakes. You just try and minimize them.   and learn from them as fast as you can. Like making mistakes is part of success and nobody says it that way, but I think it's really, really important to get that. And when you're moving towards something, you're in abundance, you're in striving, you're in goal oriented, whatever your thing is. And that doesn't have to be about money. That could be, I wanna be a great parent. I wanna get in better health. I wanna have more free time and make the same money.   So this isn't like just a money conversation, but when you're moving toward those, you have a tendency to lose your fear. I think it's when we aren't sure where to go next that we get afraid of losing ground and we do that. And so I think sometimes it's just a matter of clarity and reminding yourself, where do I want to go? What am I building? Like once you get past a certain point, like, you know, once you get past a certain amount of income or a certain amount of wealth, it's not about money anymore.   Right. It's really about contribution. It's about impact. And I think when we, our mind can really only focus on one thing at a time, especially as men, ⁓ women are much better at seeing the big picture. ⁓ But, but really when you're focused on something that holds your attention and then it doesn't drift to some of the other stuff as much, it doesn't mean you won't. Cause I'll tell you, I'm at my most vulnerable when I wake up in the morning and my brain starts doing payroll and all these other things. And like you said,   The Dental A Team (26:26) you   Derick Van Ness (26:47) I have enough cash stored away that I could not make a dollar for a year and still pay for my whole business and do the whole thing and be fine. But that doesn't mean that that instinctual part of me doesn't freak out for a minute until I come in and say, hey, we're building massive things. We're changing people's lives. Let's just focus on that and let the rest take care of itself. That really is the best thing for me is to focus on where I'm going, not where I'm afraid I might end up.   The Dental A Team (27:15) Absolutely. I   think that was good. Good wisdom there. You are the person, if you guys have heard me talk about it on the podcast, this came from Derick. He's the one who's told me it's a return on emotion, not necessarily a return on investment and like what helps you sleep at night, what helps you stay there. And I love that you talked about like it is a survival instinct. It's not a bad instinct. so loving that side, but also tempering it so that way we can enjoy the fulfillment. And again, I also think that there becomes confidence in yourself. I think enough.   enough business crashes, enough mistakes, enough things where you come back from it also teach you that there's certainty within yourself that no matter what comes your way, ⁓ you know that you'll be able to survive it, you'll be able to come. Someone told me once, it's not unsafe, it's just uncomfortable. Unless someone's running at you with like a knife and it's truly life threatening, it's like if the stock market crashes, that's like we're still safe, it's just going to be pretty dang uncomfortable for a little bit. If we become bankrupt,   Derick Van Ness (27:47) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (28:13) We're not unsafe, we're just uncomfortable. And that has given me a lot of, I think, temperance on when you think about finances, like that'd be uncomfortable, but I am still safe and I would still be alive and we can come back and we can figure things out. So Derick, I know we wanted to pivot gears and talk R &D credits, because this is something that's new. yeah, let's kind of chat that because I think we've gone through tax strategy, building wealth mindset around ⁓ how to maintain and have that.   Derick Van Ness (28:30) Well, yeah, we'll keep it short here.   The Dental A Team (28:42) return on emotion and building those skills. And I really love that you just said money issues don't ever go away, they just change shape. And I think that that's the same as business, right? Business problems just become a different flavor and different color. ⁓ But now let's talk about like some R &D credits because we've talked about R &D. I've seen several clients do very well on R &D credits. So was excited to hear like, they're back and they're back again, and they look a little different. So I'm excited to hear if you guys don't know what they are, Derick will definitely explain them and how you can.   Derick Van Ness (29:02) Yep.   The Dental A Team (29:08) Dental practices are ripe for the picking of R &D, it's exciting to have a resource for dental practices.   Derick Van Ness (29:15) Yeah, dental practices really are because the R &D credits are designed when you do new things in your business that are based in technology. And that could be computer science, engineering, biological science, or physical science, like chemistry, ⁓ which dentists are doing all of that stuff. So when you do new stuff in your business, the government realizes you're taking a risk. You're trying a new implant system. You're trying a new ⁓   a new type of diagnostic, you're trying a new flow for your patients, whatever. Sometimes it blows up in your face. I everybody listening here has tried a new piece of software and after six weeks you wanted to throw the computer out the window and you're like, we're going back to the other one, we got to find something else, right? ⁓ Or we tried 3D printing and it was just really, really hard and like some people love it, some people hate it. But at the end of the day, every time you take that risk, the government knows that you could lose money.   The Dental A Team (29:57) Totally.   Derick Van Ness (30:11) So the R &D credits are really their effort to say, don't stop innovating. Don't stop trying to get better. We know you're going to take some skin, knees, and elbows along the way. And we're willing to give you some credits to help with that. so ⁓ dentists, like dentistry is moving so fast. I don't have to tell the listeners that. There's new stuff every single quarter, every single year. Five years ago, everybody was getting crowns to be milled. Now they're 3D printing teeth and doing all, you know.   digital scans and all the other stuff and pretty quick here, think we have robots doing surgery. I don't necessarily want to be the first person to try that, but.   The Dental A Team (30:45) Yeah, me neither. I'm like number   like 200,000. I'll try it at that point. I'm usually like number two jumping off a cliff if the first person's alive, then I'll jump. Unlike innovative robots, I only have 28 teeth left, so I'll just let them practice a bit more before they come to me. It's okay. Stick with the drill and fill. Yeah, the drill and fill, I'm okay with it. It's all right. It's better.   Derick Van Ness (30:51) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yep.   I'll just pay a little more for the people.   Yes. so effectively, most dentists just don't realize they're qualifying for these credits. And so what we try to help them do is we do a free estimate to help you understand, OK, let's go through the different things that you did in your practice. It takes maybe a half an hour to identify the different things you've done. And right now, there's a window. And this is why we wanted to talk about this today, that closes on the 4th of July of 2026. So we've got about three or four months left.   where you can go back and you can file for 2022, 2023, and 2024. I don't want to bore everybody, but effectively when they did the 2017 tax rewrite, the first Trump tax rewrite, it broke the R &D credits in 2022. You could file for them, but the downside was bigger than the upside, so it wasn't worth doing. Now, they kind of did that on purpose to balance the budget, and they thought, oh, we'll change it before 2022, and then COVID happened, so they never changed it.   So it got broken. So they came back and they fixed it and said, hey, you guys can go back and claim this, but you really only have until the 4th of July. So they gave us one year to do it. ⁓ And so it's a big opportunity, a big window right now where you can get three years worth of credit. So you can literally go back. The government will send you a check for taxes you've overpaid, and you can get that money back. I won't tell you the IRS is really fast at processing this stuff, but they do get to all of them.   The Dental A Team (32:23) Wow.   No.   Derick Van Ness (32:34) And the checks come in, and we've done over 1,000 of these for clients. So it's definitely a legit thing. And the credits have been around since the 80s. They became a permanent part of the tax code in 2015. So they were kind of new. They've been around about 10 years. But the first couple of years, nobody knew. then over the last couple of years, they've become more and more popular. But then they kind of screwed them up in 22 through 24. So the reason I wanted to talk about them is if somebody is a dentist, they're not claiming these credits. But they are doing.   The Dental A Team (32:38) Wow.   Derick Van Ness (33:04) Innovative things upgrading equipment trying new software trying new techniques new implant systems new Diagnostics, whatever you probably got all these credits sitting there. You don't know about and It's worth getting a free estimate to see what's on the table. Yes You do have to amend your taxes, which is a very small pain in the butt But your total time into this should be an hour or two, which is really a short conversation You send over tax returns ⁓ A team like ours would give you an estimate   And if it seems like it's worth doing it, then you do it. You just let them do their thing and you write the check for the fee, right? So it's pretty hard to beat bang for your buck hour for hour. And like I said, for a lot of practices, it's between 1 to 2 % of your gross revenue. This is not a quote. This is just like what I've generally seen. So if you have a million dollar practice, it's probably 10 to 20 grand a year if you're doing these types of things. I mean, I have some. We just did a doctor who's got   Six offices they're getting almost a half a million dollars back right it can be it can be major and Doesn't take him any longer than to take someone with one office so you know it's it's just a big window of opportunity that I wanted to try and squeeze in here and People who haven't done this or unaware. It's like hey, we got a big opportunity and you can do this for 2025 moving forward every year. It's it's back indefinitely and so my hope is   The Dental A Team (34:07) It's incredible.   Derick Van Ness (34:32) People can do the catch up. And then from here forward, you don't even have to amend. You just party your tax return. You just don't pay the taxes. Just like you depreciate equipment or anything else and just get the tax break, the difference is tax credits are dollar for dollar. So if you get $10,000 tax credit, it's just $10,000 you don't pay in taxes, not a $10,000 write off, which might be worth $3,000 or $4,000.   The Dental A Team (34:40) awesome.   Mm-hmm.   Totally. No, and I think Derick, I'm so glad you brought this up. And at first I was creeped out by you. I'm not going to lie. Like when you first started talking about it, was like, are these like, I don't know, what are they called? The opportunity zones. And like, I heard a lot of people got their shorts burned on those. And I was like, do I even put this on the podcast? But I will say, Derick just said he's done thousands of them. They have had great success. I have seen clients tell me, thank you. So that's why I wanted Derick to come on because any client that comes from Dental A Team does get preferred.   Derick Van Ness (35:03) you   huh.   The Dental A Team (35:26) I don't know treatment. don't know what you guys do, but I do know that there's, ⁓ you guys get, you just said you get pushed to the front of line. If you mentioned you heard on Dental A Team podcast, we also have a link with big life financial. I'm pretty sure Derick, if I remember right, I'm pretty sure we do. ⁓ but definitely wanted you guys to have that, especially with a closing in July. And it's something where I love that Derick will just like, he's met with me and my husband several times to talk about multiple things. Derick is non pushy. And I appreciate that about you, Derick. You ⁓ educate.   Derick Van Ness (35:27) Treatment, yep, yep, front of the line.   We do. Yep.   The Dental A Team (35:56) and then give people the information and then you're to make the decisions on your own. So I think like, why not? Why not reach out to Derick? Why not just like see what it looks like? And then you have their resources. They're not going to file unless you want them to. You don't have to break up with your CPA if they file for you. I'm pretty sure. Is that right? Like you don't have to switch.   Derick Van Ness (36:09) Correct.   No, no, yeah,   you don't have to. We can amend it for you. But in a lot of cases, it makes sense to just have your CPA do it. They've got all your information. So but we can handle it either way.   The Dental A Team (36:25) So I think like on that, I just feel it's very much worthwhile. And I know Big Life Financial does a lot. do. I'll let you like take it because I know you guys are added to more services. But I think like if nothing else, we want to have the call to action of like, just look into the R &D credits. Like I said, I have seen multiple checks go to practices. They have not been audited. ⁓ Things have gone very smoothly for them. I was skittish. But I mean, Derick, we've been talking about this, I don't know, almost five years now, if not longer, that we've been telling practices about it. So.   Derick Van Ness (36:52) Yep.   The Dental A Team (36:54) very excited, but Derick, kind of tell about the makeup of what Big Life Financial is and then how people can reach out to you, especially in particular to the R &D credits.   Derick Van Ness (37:04) Yeah, so for the R &D credits, just go to, it's just BigLifeFinancial.com So BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT D-A-T right? Dental A Team. And all you got to do is just set up a time there to talk with myself or someone on my team. It's like a 15 minute call. And we'll just screen it, see if it makes sense. Beyond that, we do offer full service taxes if for some reason you're looking for tax breaks or you feel like you're, for one reason or another, you need to make a change.   then we can do that. We do also work with an RIA. So if you're looking for some of these investments that might have tax breaks or other diversification or whatever, we have those capabilities as well. So we really try to be front to back like what we call like a family office or a fractional family office, which is what the super rich people have. They just have an attorney and a CPA and a   Uh, an insurance guy, an investment guy, or probably 10 investment guys who all just work for them. Obviously most people can't afford to have an entire team that just works for them. So we work with a limited number of people, but we have a coordinated team that way. And, and it's taken me like 10 years to find the right people to do that. That's, that's really it because the Uber wealthy have those people, the people who are making 50 or a hundred thousand bucks a year, they don't need it. We really work in this sweet spot where a lot of people make.   300,000 400,000 on the low end to 2 3 million on the high end. And they're kind of in between, not rich enough to have the team that's all working together all the time, but rich enough that you really need it. Like this segment of the population is the one that just gets crushed on taxes. ⁓ And so we're really doing our best to help minimize that. So that's why we work so much with dentists and doctors.   The Dental A Team (38:56) That's amazing. I love that Derick. And I think for everybody, it was BigLifeFinancial.com slash DAT. We'll be sure to like link that in the show notes and also add it for you guys. But, and Derick, love, I didn't know what a family office was at first. And then I found out hanging out with a lot of wealthy people, what it is. And so for you to provide that, think worth conversations ⁓ and definitely appreciate the insights today. It was a really fun episode. I'm glad we got back together. It's been too long. ⁓ And like truly guys, just reach out.   Again, I would do it as exploration. would do it as like, just find out anytime I hear things like this, I just go book meetings. It doesn't mean I need to actually execute on it. But I think again, learning the language of business, learning the education, seeing if it fills right for you. Now you can ask a million people, but like I said, Derick and I have been doing this for about five years and every client that has been referred to Big Life Financial has gone through, has told me how much they've been grateful for it. So Derick, I appreciate you. Any last wrap up thoughts today as we wrap up today? I appreciate our time so much today together.   Derick Van Ness (39:55) No, I think it's just understanding that part of building wealth is beyond just making income, right? Just making income won't build the life you want to live. Once you earn the money, you got to take care of it. And there's a lot of pieces to that. So whether it's with us or someone else, just take that on for your family's sake. It's not just about making it. It's keeping it and being smarter with it. And if you do that, you're going to be in good hands.   The Dental A Team (40:20) amazing. Well, Derick, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you all for listening. I love what Derick said, like it's not just enough to make the money, we need to figure out how to keep the money and set yourselves up for the great lives that you've been building and to truly have that big life as Derick has described it. So for all of you listening, I hope that today you don't just passively listen, but you actively take action and commit to having the wealth of your life, the wealth of your dreams to have that life that really ⁓   is the life of your dreams. there's a quote from my mirror from when I was little where I said, don't just dream, do. And I think that that's how I'll leave you today. So for all of you listening, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

The reception to our recent post on Code Reviews has been strong. Catch up!Amid a maelstrom of discussion on whether or not AI is killing SaaS, one of the top publicly listed SaaS companies in the world has just reported record revenues, clearing well over $1.1B in ARR for the first time with a 28% margin. As we comment on the pod, Aaron Levie is the rare public company CEO equally at home in both worlds of Silicon Valley and Wall Street/Main Street, by day helping 70% of the Fortune 500 with their Enterprise Advanced Suite, and yet by night is often found in the basements of early startups and tweeting viral insights about the future of agents.Now that both Cursor, Cloudflare, Perplexity, Anthropic and more have made Filesystems and Sandboxes and various forms of “Just Give the Agent a Box” cool (not just cool; it is now one of the single hottest areas in AI infrastructure growing 100% MoM), we find it a delightfully appropriate time to do the episode with the OG CEO who has been giving humans and computers Boxes since he was a college dropout pitching VCs at a Michael Arrington house party.Enjoy our special pod, with fan favorite returning guest/guest cohost Jeff Huber!Note: We didn't directly discuss the AI vs SaaS debate - Aaron has done many, many, many other podcasts on that, and you should read his definitive essay on it. Most commentators do not understand SaaS businesses because they have never scaled one themselves, and deeply reflected on what the true value proposition of SaaS is.We also discuss Your Company is a Filesystem:We also shoutout CTO Ben Kus' and the AI team, who talked about the technical architecture and will return for AIE WF 2026.Full Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00 Adapting Work for Agents* 01:29 Why Every Agent Needs a Box* 04:38 Agent Governance and Identity* 11:28 Why Coding Agents Took Off First* 21:42 Context Engineering and Search Limits* 31:29 Inside Agent Evals* 33:23 Industries and Datasets* 35:22 Building the Agent Team* 38:50 Read Write Agent Workflows* 41:54 Docs Graphs and Founder Mode* 55:38 Token FOMO Culture* 56:31 Production Function Secrets* 01:01:08 Film Roots to Box* 01:03:38 AI Future of Movies* 01:06:47 Media DevRel and EngineeringTranscriptAdapting Work for AgentsAaron Levie: Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and does it for you, and you may be at best review it. That's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work.We basically adapted to how the agent works. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. Right now, it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this ‘cause you'll see compounding returns. But that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: Welcome to the Lane Space Pod. We're back in the chroma studio with uh, chroma, CEO, Jeff Hoover. Welcome returning guest now guest host.Aaron Levie: It's a pleasure. Wow. How'd you get upgraded to, uh, to that?swyx: Because he's like the perfect guy to be guest those for you.Aaron Levie: That makes sense actually, for We love context. We, we both really love context le we really do.We really do.swyx: Uh, and we're here with, uh, Aaron Levy. Welcome.Aaron Levie: Thank you. Good to, uh, good to be [00:01:00] here.swyx: Uh, yeah. So we've all met offline and like chatted a little bit, but like, it's always nice to get these things in person and conversation. Yeah. You just started off with so much energy. You're, you're super excited about agents.I loveAaron Levie: agents.swyx: Yeah. Open claw. Just got by, got bought by OpenAI. No, not bought, but you know, you know what I mean?Aaron Levie: Some, some, you know, acquihire. Executiveswyx: hire.Aaron Levie: Executive hire. Okay. Executive hire. Say,swyx: hey, that's my term. Okay. Um, what are you pounding the table on on agents? You have so many insightful tweets.Why Every Agent Needs a BoxAaron Levie: Well, the thing that, that we get super excited by that I think is probably, you know, should be relatively obvious is we've, we've built a platform to help enterprises manage their files and their, their corporate files and the permissions of who has access to those files and the sharing collaboration of those files.All of those files contain really, really important information for the enterprise. It might have your contracts, it might have your research materials, it might have marketing information, it might have your memos. All that data obviously has, you know, predominantly been used by humans. [00:02:00] But there's been one really interesting problem, which is that, you know, humans only really work with their files during an active engagement with them, and they kind of go away and you don't really see them for a long time.And all of a sudden, uh, with the power of AI and AI agents, all of that data becomes extremely relevant as this ongoing source of, of answers to new questions of data that will transform into, into something else that, that produces value in your organization. It, it contains the answer to the new employee that's onboarding, that needs to ramp up on a project.Um, it contains the answer to the right thing to sell a customer when you're having a conversation to them, with them contains the roadmap information that's gonna produce the next feature. So all that data. That previously we've been just sort of storing and, and you know, occasionally forgetting about, ‘cause we're only working on the new active stuff.All of that information becomes valuable to the enterprise and it's gonna become extremely valuable to end users because now they can have agents go find what they're looking for and produce new, new [00:03:00] value and new data on that information. And it's gonna become incredibly valuable to agents because agents can roam around and do a bunch of work and they're gonna need access to that data as well.And um, and you know, sometimes that will be an agent that is sort of working on behalf of, of, of you and, and effectively as you as and, and they are kind of accessing all of the same information that you have access to and, and operating as you in the system. And then sometimes there's gonna be agents that are just.Effectively autonomous and kind of run on their own and, and you're gonna collaborate and work with them kind of like you did another person. Open Claw being the most recent and maybe first real sort of, you know, kind of, you know, up updating everybody's, you know, views of this landscape version of, of what that could look like, which is, okay, I have an agent.It's on its own system, it's on its own computer, it has access to its own tools. I probably don't give it access to my entire life. I probably communicate with it like I would an assistant or a colleague and then it, it sort of has this sandbox environment. So all of that has massive implications for a platform that manage that [00:04:00] enterprise data.We think it's gonna just transform how we work with all of the enterprise content that we work with, and we just have to make sure we're building the right platform to support that.swyx: The sort of shorthand I put it is as people build agents, everybody's just realizing that every agent needs a box. Yes.And it's nice to be called box and just give everyone a box.Aaron Levie: Hey, I if I, you know, if we can make that go viral, uh, like I, I think that that terminology, I, that's theswyx: tagline. Every agentAaron Levie: needs a box. Every agent needs a box. If we can make that the headline of this, I'm fine with this. And that's the billboard I wanna like Yeah, exactly.Every agent needs a box. Um, I like it. Can we ship this? Like,swyx: okay, let's do it. Yeah.Aaron Levie: Uh, my work here is done and I got the value I needed outta this podcast Drinks.swyx: Yeah.Agent Governance and IdentityAaron Levie: But, but, um, but, but, you know, so the thing that we, we kind of think about is, um, is, you know, whether you think the number 10 x or a hundred x or whatever the number is, we're gonna have some order of magnitude more agents than people.That's inevitable. It has to happen. So then the question is, what is the infrastructure that's needed to make all those agents effective in the enterprise? Make sure that they are well governed. Make sure they're only doing [00:05:00] safe things on your information. Make sure that they're not getting exposed. The data that they shouldn't have access to.There's gonna be just incredibly spectacularly crazy security incidents that will happen with agents because you'll prompt, inject an agent and sort of find your way through the CRM system and pull out data that you shouldn't have access to. Oh, weJeff Huber: have God,Aaron Levie: right? I mean, that's just gonna happen all over the place, right?So, so then the thing is, is how do you make sure you have the right security, the permissions, the access controls, the data governance. Um, we actually don't yet exactly know in many cases how we're gonna regulate some of these agents, right? If you think about an agent in financial services, does it have the exact same financial sort of, uh, requirements that a human did?Or is it, is the risk fully on the human that was interacting or created the agent? All open questions, but no matter what, there's gonna need to be a layer that manages the, the data they have access to, the workflows that they're involved in, pulling up data from multiple systems. This is the new infrastructure opportunity in the era of agents.swyx: You have a piece on agent identities, [00:06:00] which I think was today, um, which I think a lot of breaking news, the security, security people are talking about, right? Like you basically, I, I always think of this as like, well you need the human you and then there you need the agent. YouAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: And uh, well, I don't know if it's that simple, but is box going to have an opinion on that or you're just gonna be like, well we're just the sort of the, the source layer.Yeah. Let's Okta of zero handle that.Aaron Levie: I think we're gonna have an opinion and we will work with generally wherever the contours of the market end up. Um, and the reason that we're gonna have an opinion more than other topics probably is because one of the biggest use cases for why your agent might need it, an identity is for file system access.So thus we have to kind of think about this pretty deeply. And I think, uh, unless you're like in our world thinking about this particular problem all day long, it might be, you know, like, why is this such a big deal? And the reason why it's a really big deal is because sometimes sort of say, well just give the agent an, an account on the system and it just treats, treat it like every other type of user on the system.The [00:07:00] problem is, is that I as Aaron don't really have any responsibility over anybody else's box account in our organization. I can't see the box account of any other employee that I work with. I am not liable for anything that they do. And they have, I have, I have, you know, strict privacy requirements on everything that they're able to, you know, that, that, that they work on.Agents don't have that, you know, don't have those properties. The person who creates the agent probably is gonna, for the foreseeable future, take on a lot of the liability of what that agent does. That agent doesn't deserve any privacy because, because it's, you know, it can't fully be autonomously operated and it doesn't have any legal, you know, kind of, you know, responsibility.So thus you can't just be like, oh, well I'll just create a bunch of accounts and then I'll, I'll kind of work with that agent and I'll talk to it occasionally. Like you need oversight of that. And so then the question is, how do you have a world where the agent, sometimes you have oversight of, but what if that agent goes and works with other people?That person over there is collaborating with the agent on something you shouldn't have [00:08:00] access to what they're doing. So we have all of these new boundaries that we're gonna have to figure out of, of, you know, it's really, really easy. So far we've been in, in easy mode. We've hit the easy button with ai, which is the agent just is you.And when you're in quad code and you're in cursor, and you're in Codex, you're just, the agent is you. You're offing into your services. It can do everything you can do. That's the easy mode. The hard mode is agents are kind of running on their own. People check in with them occasionally, they're doing things autonomously.How do you give them access to resources in the enterprise and not dramatically increased the security risk and the risk that you might expose the wrong thing to somebody. These are all the new problems that we have to get solved. I like the identity layer and, and identity vendors as being a solution to that, but we'll, we'll need some opinions as well because so many of the use cases are these collaborative file system use cases, which is how do I give it an agent, a subset of my data?Give it its own workspace as well. ‘cause it's gonna need to store off its own information that would be relevant for it. And how do I have the right oversight into that? [00:09:00]Jeff Huber: One thing, which, um, I think is kind interesting, think about is that you know, how humans work, right? Like I may not also just like give you access to the whole file.I might like sit next to you and like scroll to this like one part of the file and just show you that like one part and like, you know,swyx: partial file access.Jeff Huber: I'm just saying I think like our, like RA does seem to be dead, right? Like you wanna say something is dead uhhuh probably RA is dead. And uh, like the auth story to me seems like incredibly unsolved and unaddressed by like the existing state of like AI vendors.ButAaron Levie: yeah, I think, um, we're, I mean you're taking obviously really to level limit that we probably need to solve for. Yeah. And we built an access control system that was, was kind of like, you know, its own little world for, for a long time. And um, and the idea was this, it's a many to many collaboration system where I can give you any part of the file system.And it's a waterfall model. So if I give you higher up in the, in the, in the system, you get everything below. And that, that kind of created immense flexibility because I can kind of point you to any layer in the, in the tree, but then you're gonna get access to everything kind of below it. And that [00:10:00] mostly is, is working in this, in this world.But you do have to manage this issue, which is how do I create an agent that has access to some of my stuff and somebody else's stuff as well. Mm-hmm. And which parts do I get to look at as the creator of the agent? And, and these are just brand new problems? Yeah. Crazy. And humans, when there was a human there that was really easy to do.Like, like if the three of us were all sharing, there'd be a Venn diagram where we'd have an overlapping set of things we've shared, but then we'd have our own ways that we shared with each other. In an agent world, somebody needs to take responsibility for what that agent has access to and what they're working on.These are like the, some of the most probably, you know, boring problems for 98% of people on, on the internet, but they will be the problems that are the difference between can you actually have autonomous agents in an enterprise contextswyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: That are not leaking your data constantly.swyx: No. Like, I mean, you know, I run a very, very small company for my conference and like we already have data sensitivity issues.Yes. And some of my team members cannot see Yes. Uh, the others and like, I can't imagine what it's like to run a Fortune 500 and like, you have to [00:11:00] worry about this. I'm just kinda curious, like you, you talked to a lot like, like 70, 80% of your cus uh, of the Fortune 500, your customers.Aaron Levie: Yep. 67%. Just so we're being verySEswyx: precise.So Yeah. I'm notAaron Levie: Okay. Okay.swyx: Something I'm rounding up. Yes. Round up. I'm projecting to, forAaron Levie: the government.swyx: I'm projecting to the end of the year.Aaron Levie: Okay.swyx: There you go.Aaron Levie: You do make it sound like, like we, we, well we've gotta be on this. Like we're, we're taking way too long to get to 80%. Well,swyx: no, I mean, so like. How are they approaching it?Right? Because you're, you don't have a, you don't have a final answer yet.Why Coding Agents Took Off FirstAaron Levie: Well, okay, so, so this is actually, this is the stark reality that like, unfortunately is the kinda like pouring the water on the party a little bit.swyx: Yes.Aaron Levie: We all in Silicon Valley are like, have the absolute best conditions possible for AI ever.And I think we all saw the dke, you know, kind of Dario podcast and this idea of AI coding. Why is that taken off? And, and we're not yet fully seeing it everywhere else. Well, look, if you just like enumerated the list of properties that AI coding has and then compared it to other [00:12:00] knowledge work, let's just, let's just go through a few of them.Generally speaking, you bring on a new engineer, they have access to a large swath of the code base. Like, there's like very, like you, just, like new engineer comes on, they can just go and find the, the, the stuff that they, they need to work with. It's a fully text in text out. Medium. It's only, it's just gonna be text at the end of the day.So it's like really great from a, from just a, uh, you know, kinda what the agent can work with. Obviously the models are super trained on that dataset. The labs themselves have a really strong, kind of self-reinforcing positive flywheel of why they need to do, you know, agent coding deeply. So then you get just better tooling, better services.The actual developers of the AI are daily users of the, of the thing that they're we're working on versus like the, you know, probably there's only like seven Claude Cowork legal plugin users at Anthropic any given day, but there's like a couple thousand Claude code and you know, users every single day.So just like, think about which one are they getting more feedback on. All day long. So you just go through this list. You have a, you know, everybody who's a [00:13:00] developer by definition is technical so they can go install the latest thing. We're all generally online, or at least, you know, kinda the weird ones are, and we're all talking to each other, sharing best practices, like that's like already eight differences.Versus the rest of the economy. Every other part of the economy has like, like six to seven headwinds relative to that list. You go into a company, you're a banker in financial services, you have access to like a, a tiny little subset of the total data that's gonna be relevant to do your job. And you're have to start to go and talk to a bunch of people to get the right data to do your job because Sally didn't add you to that deal room, you know, folder.And that that, you know, the information is actually in a completely different organization that you now have to go in and, and sort of run into. And it's like you have this endless list of access controls and security. As, as you talked about, you have a medium, which is not, it's not just text, right? You have, you have a zoom call that, that you're getting all of the requirements from the customer.You have a lot of in-person conversations and you're doing in-person sales and like how do you ever [00:14:00] digitize all of that information? Um, you know, I think a lot of people got upset with this idea that the code base has all the context, um, that I don't know if you follow, you know, did you follow some of that conversation that that went viral?Is like, you know, it's not that simple that, that the code base doesn't have all the knowledge, but like it's a lot, you're a lot better off than you are with other areas of knowledge work. Like you, we like, we like have documentation practices, you write specifications. Those things don't exist for like 80% of work that happens in the enterprise.That's the divide that we have, which is, which is AI coding has, has just fully, you know, where we've reached escape velocity of how powerful this stuff is, and then we're gonna have to find a way to bring that same energy and momentum, but to all these other areas of knowledge work. Where the tools aren't there, the data's not set up to be there.The access controls don't make it that easy. The context engineering is an incredibly hard problem because again, you have access control challenges, you have different data formats. You have end users that are gonna need to kind of be kind of trained through this as opposed to their adopting [00:15:00] these tools in their free time.That's where the Fortune 500 is. And so we, I think, you know, have to be prepared as an industry where we are gonna be on a multi-year march to, to be able to bring agents to the enterprise for these workflows. And I think probably the, the thing that we've learned most in coding that, that the rest of the world is not yet, I think ready for, I mean, we're, they'll, they'll have to be ready for it because it's just gonna inevitably happen is I think in coding.What, what's interesting is if you think about the practice of coding today versus two years ago. It's probably the most changed workflow in maybe the history of time from the amount of time it's changed, right? Yeah. Like, like has any, has any workflow in the entire economy changed that quickly in terms of the amount of change?I just, you know, at least in any knowledge worker workflow, there's like very rarely been an event where one piece of technology and work practice has so fundamentally, you know, changed, changed what you do. Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and [00:16:00] does it for you, and you may be at best review it.And even that's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works. Mm-hmm. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution.The rest of the economy is gonna have to update its workflows to make agents effective. And to give agents the context that they need and to actually figure out what kind of prompting works and to figure out how do you ensure that the agent has the right access to information to be able to execute on its work.I, you know, this is not the panacea that people were hoping for, of the agent drops in, just automates your life. Like you have to basically re-engineer your workflow to get the most out of agents and, uh, and that, that's just gonna take, you know, multiple years across the economy. Right now it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this.‘cause [00:17:00] you'll see compounding returns, but that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: I love, I love pushing back. I think that. That is what a lot of technology consultants love to hear this sort of thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. First to, to embrace the ai. Yes. To get to the promised land, you must pay me so much money to a hundred percent to adopt the prescribed way of, uh, conforming to the agents.Yes. And I worry that you will be eclipsed by someone else who says, no, come as you are.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And we'll meet you where you are.Aaron Levie: And, and, and and what was the thing that went viral a week ago? OpenAI probably, uh, is hiring F Dees. Yeah. Uh, to go into the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. And then philanthropic is embedded at Goldman Sachs.Yeah. So if the labs are having to do this, if, if the labs have decided that they need to hire FDE and professional services, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that this, there's no easy mode of workflow transformation. Yeah. Yeah. So, so to your point, I think actually this is a market opportunity for, you know, new professional services and consulting [00:18:00] firms that are like Agent Build and they, and they kind of, you know, go into organizations and they figure out how to re-engineer your workflows to make them more agent ready and get your data into the right format and, you know, reconstruct your business process.So you're, you're not doing most of the work. You're telling agents how to do the work and then you're reviewing it. But I haven't seen the thing that can just drop in and, and kinda let you not go through those changes.swyx: I don't know how that kind of sales pitch goes over. Yeah. You know, you're, you're saying things like, well, in my sort of nice beautiful walled garden, here's, there's, uh, because here's this, here's this beautiful box account that has everything.Yes. And I'm like, well, most, most real life is extremely messy. Sure. And like, poorly named and there duplicate this outdated s**tAaron Levie: a hundred percent. And so No, no, a hundred percent. And so this is actually No. So, so this is, I mean, we agree that, that getting to the beautiful garden is gonna be tough.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: There's also the other end of the spectrum where I, I just like, it's a technical impossibility to solve. The agent is, is truly cannot get enough context to make the right decision in, in the, in the incredibly messy land. Like there's [00:19:00] no a GI that will solve that. So, so we're gonna have to kind of land in somewhere in between, which is like we all collectively get better at.Documentation practices and, and having authoritative relatively up-to-date information and putting it in the right place like agents will, will certainly cause us to be much better organized around how we work with our information, simply because the severity of the agent pulling the wrong data will be too high and the productivity gain of that you'll miss out on by not doing this will be too high as well, that you, that your competition will just do it and they'll just have higher velocity.So, uh, and, and we, we see this a lot firsthand. So we, we build a series of agents internally that they can kind of have access to your full box account and go off and you give it a task and it can go find whatever information you're looking for and work with. And, you know, thank God for the model progress, but like, if, if you gave that task to an agent.Nine months ago, you're just gonna get lots of bogus answers because it's gonna, it's gonna say, Hey, here's, here are fi [00:20:00] five, you know, documents that all kind of smell like the right thing. And I'm gonna, but I, but you're, you're putting me on the clock. ‘cause my assistant prompt says like, you know, be pretty smart, but also try and respond to the user and it's gonna respond.And it's like, ah, it got the wrong document. And then you do that once or twice as a knowledge worker and you're just neverswyx: again,Aaron Levie: never again. You're just like done with the system.swyx: Yeah. It doesn't work.Aaron Levie: It doesn't work. And so, you know, Opus four six and Gemini three one Pro and you know, whatever the latest five 3G BT will be, like, those things are getting better and better and it's using better judgment.And this sort of like the, all of these updates to the agentic tool and search systems are, are, we're seeing, we're seeing very real progress where the agent. Kind of can, can almost smell some things a little bit fishy when it's getting, you know, we, we have this process where we, we have it go fan out, do a bunch of searches, pull up a bunch of data, and then it has to sort of do its own ranking of, you know, what are the right documents that, that it should be working with.And again, like, you know, the intelligence level of a model six months ago, [00:21:00] it'd be just throwing a dart at like, I'm just, I'm gonna grab these seven files and I, I pray, I hope that that's the right answer. And something like an opus first four five, and now four six is like, oh, it's like, no, that one doesn't seem right relative to this question because I'm seeing some signal that is making that, you know, that's contradicting the document where it would normally be in the tree and who should have access.Like it's doing all of that kind of work for you. But like, it still doesn't work if you just have a total wasteland of data. Like, it's just not, it's just not possible. Partly ‘cause a human wouldn't even be able to do it. So basically if a, if a really, really smart human. Could not do that task in five or 10 minutes for a search retrieval type task.Look, you know, your agent's not gonna be able to do it any better. You see this all day long. SoContext Engineering and Search Limitsswyx: this touches on a thing that just passionate about it was just context engineering. I, I'm just gonna let you ramble or riff on, on context engineering. If, if, if there's anything like he, he did really good work on context fraud, which has really taken over as like the term that people use and the referenceAaron Levie: a hundred percent.We, we all we think about is, is the context rob problem. [00:22:00]Jeff Huber: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of like ranking considerations. Gentech surgery think is incredibly promising. Um, yeah, I was trying to generate a question though. I think I have a question right now. Swyx.Aaron Levie: Yeah, no, but like, like I think there was this moment, um, you know, like, I don't know, two years ago before, before we knew like where the, the gotchas were gonna be in ai and I think someone was like, was like, well, infinite context windows will just solve all of these problems and ‘cause you'll just, you'll just give the context window like all the data and.It's just like, okay, I mean, maybe in 2035, like this is a viable solution. First of all, it, it would just, it would just simply cost too much. Like we just can't give the model like the 5,000 documents that might be relevant and it's gonna read them all. And I've seen enough to, to start believing in crazy stuff.So like, I'm willing to just say, sure. Like in, in 10 years from now,swyx: never say, never, never.Aaron Levie: In, in 10 years from now, we'll have infinite context windows at, at a thousandth of the price of today. Like, let's just like believe that that's possible, but Right. We're in reality today. So today we have a context engineering [00:23:00] problem, which is, I got, I got, you know, 200,000 tokens that I can work with, or prob, I don't even know what the latest graph is before, like massive degradation.16. Okay. I have 60,000 tokens that I get to work with where I'm gonna get accurate information. That's not a lot of tokens for a corpus of 10 million documents that a knowledge worker might have across all of the teams and all the projects and all the people they work with. I have, I have 10 million documents.Which, you know, maybe is times five pages per document or something like that. I'm at 50 million pages of information and I have 60,000 tokens. Like, holy s**t. Yeah. This is like, how do I bridge the 50 million pages of information with, you know, the couple hundred that I get to work with in that, in that token window.Yeah. This is like, this is like such an interesting problem and that's why actually so much work is actually like, just like search systems and the databases and that layer has to just get so locked in, but models getting better and importantly [00:24:00] knowing when they've done a search, they found the wrong thing, they go back, they check their work, they, they find a way to balance sort of appeasing the user versus double checking.We have this one, we have this one test case where we ask the agent to go find. 10 pieces of information.swyx: Is this the complex work eval?Aaron Levie: Uh, this is actually not in the eval. This is, this is sort of just like we have a bunch of different, we have a bunch of internal benchmark kind of scenarios. Every time we, we update our agent, we have one, which is, I ask it to find all of our office addresses, and I give it the list of 10 offices that we have.And there's not one document that has this, maybe there should be, that would be a great example of the kind of thing that like maybe over time companies start to, you know, have these sort of like, what are the canonical, you know, kind of key areas of knowledge that we need to have. We don't seem to have this one document that says, here are all of our offices.We have a bunch of documents that have like, here's the New York office and whatever. So you task this agent and you, you get, you say, I need the addresses for these 10 offices. Okay. And by the way, if you do this on any, you know, [00:25:00] public chat model, the same outcome is gonna happen. But for a different kind of query, you give it, you say, I need these 10 addresses.How many times should the agent go and do its search before it decides whether or not, there's just no answer to this question. Often, and especially the, the, let's say lower tier models, it'll come back and it'll give you six of the 10 addresses. And it'll, and I'll just say I couldn't find the otherswyx: four.It, it doesn't know what It doesn't know. ItAaron Levie: doesn't know what It doesn't know. Yeah. So the model is just like, like when should it stop? When should it stop doing? Like should it, should it do that task for literally an hour and just keep cranking through? Maybe I actually made up an office location and it doesn't know that I made it up and I didn't even know that I made it up.Like, should it just keep, re should it read every single file in your entire box account until it, until it should exhaust every single piece of information.swyx: Expensive.Aaron Levie: These are the new problems that we have. So, you know, something like, let's say a new opus model is sort of like, okay, I'm gonna try these types of queries.I didn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna, at [00:26:00] some point I'm gonna stop searching. ‘cause I've determined that that no amount of searching is gonna solve this problem. I'm just not able to do it. And that judgment is like a really new thing that the model needs to be able to have.It's like, when should it give up on a task? ‘cause, ‘cause you just don't, it's a can't find the thing. That's the real world of knowledge, work problems. And this is the stuff that the coding agents don't have to deal with. Because they, it just doesn't like, like you're not usually asking it about, you're, you're always creating net new information coming right outta the model for the most part.Obviously it has to know about your code base and your specs and your documentation, but, but when you deploy an agent on all of your data that now you have all of these new problems that you're dealing withJeff Huber: our, uh, follow follow-up research to context ride is actually on a genetic search. Ah. Um, and we've like right, sort of stress tested like frontier models and their ability to search.Um, and they're not actually that good at searching. Right. Uh, so you're sort of highlighting this like explore, exploit.swyx: You're just say, Debbie, Donna say everything doesn't work. Like,Aaron Levie: well,Jeff Huber: somebody has to be,Aaron Levie: um, can I just throw out one more thing? Yeah. That is different from coding and, and the rest [00:27:00] of the knowledge work that I, I failed to mention.So one other kind of key point is, is that, you know, at the end of the day. Whether you believe we're in a slop apocalypse or, or whatever. At the end of the day, if you, if you build a working product at the end of, if you, if you've built a working solution that is ultimately what the customer is paying for, like whether I have a lot of slop, a little slop or whatever, I'm sure there's lots of code bases we could go into in enterprise software companies where it's like just crazy slop that humans did over a 20 year period, but the end customer just gets this little interface.They can, they can type into it, it does its thing. Knowledge work, uh, doesn't have that property. If I have an AI model, go generate a contract and I generate a contract 20 times and, you know, all 20 times it's just 3% different and like that I, that, that kind of lop introduces all new kinds of risk for my organization that the code version of that LOP didn't, didn't introduce.These are, and so like, so how do you constrain these models to just the part that you want [00:28:00] them to work on and just do the thing that you want them to do? And, and, you know, in engineering, we don't, you can't be disbarred as an engineer, but you could be disbarred as a lawyer. Like you can do the wrong medical thing In healthcare, you, there's no, there's no equivalent to that of engineering.Like, doswyx: you want there to be, because I've considered softwareJeff Huber: engineer. What's that? Civil engineering there is, right? NotAaron Levie: software civil engineer. Sure. Oh yeah, for sure. But like in any of our companies, you like, you know, you'll be forgiven if you took down the site and, and we, we will do a rollback and you'll, you'll be in a meeting, but you have not been disbarred as an engineer.We don't, we don't change your, you know, your computer science, uh, blameJeff Huber: degree, this postmortem.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so, uh, now maybe we collectively as an industry need to figure out like, what are you liable for? Not legally, but like in a, in a management sense, uh, of these agents. All sorts of interesting problems that, that, that, uh, that have to come out.But in knowledge work, that's the real hostile environments that we're operating in. Hmm.swyx: I do think like, uh, a lot of the last year's, 2025 story was the rise of coding agents and I think [00:29:00] 2026 story is definitely knowledge work agents. Yes. A hundredAaron Levie: percent.swyx: Right. Like that would, and I think open claw core work are just the beginning.Yes. Like it's, the next one's gonna just gonna be absolute craziness.Aaron Levie: It it is. And, and, uh, and it's gonna be, I mean, again, like this is gonna be this, this wave where we, we are gonna try and bring as many of the practices from coding because that, that will clearly be the forefront, which is tell an agent to go do something and has an access to a set of resources.You need to be responsible for reviewing it at the end of the process. That to me is the, is the kind of template that I just think goes across knowledge, work and odd. Cowork is a great example. Open Closet's a great example. You can kind of, sort of see what Codex could become over time. These are some, some really interesting kind of platforms that are emerging.swyx: Okay. Um, I wanted to, we touched on evals a little bit. You had, you had the report that you're gonna go bring up and then I was gonna go into like, uh, boxes, evals, but uh, go ahead. Talk about your genetic search thing.Jeff Huber: Yeah. Mostly I think kinda a few of the insights. It's like number one frontier model is not good at search.Humans have this [00:30:00] natural explore, exploit trade off where we kinda understand like when to stop doing something. Also, humans are pretty good at like forgetting actually, and like pruning their own context, whereas agents are not, and actually an agent in their kind of context history, if they knew something was bad and they even, you could see in the trace the reason you trace, Hey, that probably wasn't a good idea.If it's still in the trace, still in the context, they'll still do it again. Uhhuh. Uh, and so like, I think pruning is also gonna be like, really, it's already becoming a thing, right? But like, letting self prune the con windowsswyx: be a big deal. Yeah. So, so don't leave the mistake. Don't leave the mistake in there.Cut out the mistake but tell it that you made a mistake in the past and so it doesn't repeat it.Jeff Huber: Yeah. But like cut it out so it doesn't get like distracted by it again. ‘cause really, you know, what is so, so it will repeat its mistake just because it's been, it's inswyx: theJeff Huber: context. It'sAaron Levie: in the context so much.That's a few shot example. Even if it, yeah.Jeff Huber: It's like oh thisAaron Levie: is a great thing to go try even ifJeff Huber: it didn't work.Aaron Levie: Yeah,Jeff Huber: exactly.Aaron Levie: SoJeff Huber: there's like a bunch of stuff there. JustAaron Levie: Groundhogs Day inside these models. Yeah. I'm gonna go keep doing the same wrongJeff Huber: thing. Covering sense. I feel like, you know, some creator analogy you're trying like fit a manifold in latent space, which kind is doing break program synthesis, which is kinda one we think about we're doing right.Like, you know, certain [00:31:00] facts might be like sort of overly pitting it. There are certain, you know, sec sectors of latent space and so like plug clean space. Yeah. And, uh, andswyx: so we have a bell, our editor as a bell every time you say that. SoJeff Huber: you have, you have to like remove those, likeswyx: you shoulda a gong like TPN or something.IfJeff Huber: we gong, you either remove those links to like kinda give it the freedom, kind of do what you need to do. So, but yeah. We'll, we'll release more soon. That'sAaron Levie: awesome.Jeff Huber: That'll, that'll be cool.swyx: We're a cerebral podcast that people listen to us and, and sort of think really deep. So yeah, we try to keep it subtle.Okay. We try to keep it.Aaron Levie: Okay, fine.Inside Agent Evalsswyx: Um, you, you guys do, you guys do have EVs, you talked about your, your office thing, but, uh, you've been also promoting APEX agents and complex work. Uh, yeah, whatever you, wherever you wanna take this just Yeah. How youAaron Levie: Apex is, is obviously me, core's, uh, uh, kind of, um, agent eval.We, we supported that by sort of. Opening up some data for them around how we kind of see these, um, data workspaces in, in the, you know, kind of regular economy. So how do lawyers have a workspace? How do investment bankers have a workspace? What kind of data goes into those? And so we, [00:32:00] we partner with them on their, their apex eval.Our own, um, eval is, it's actually relatively straightforward. We have a, a set of, of documents in a, in a range of industries. We give the agent previously did this as a one shot test of just purely the model. And then we just realized we, we need to, based on where everything's going, it's just gotta be more agentic.So now it's a bit more of a test of both our harness and the model. And we have a rubric of a set of things that has to get right and we score it. Um, and you're just seeing, you know, these incredible jumps in almost every single model in its own family of, you know, opus four, um, you know, sonnet four six versus sonnet four five.swyx: Yeah. We have this up on screen.Aaron Levie: Okay, cool. So some, you're seeing it somewhere like. I, I forget the to, it was like 15 point jump, I think on the main, on the overall,swyx: yes.Aaron Levie: And it's just like, you know, these incredible leaps that, that are starting to happen. Um,swyx: and OP doesn't know any, like any, it's completely held out from op.Aaron Levie: This is not in any, there's no public data which has, you know, Ben benefits and this is just a private eval that we [00:33:00] do, and then we just happen to show it to, to the world. Hmm. So you can't, you can't train against it. And I think it's just as representative of. It's obviously reasoning capabilities, what it's doing at, at, you know, kind of test time, compute capabilities, thinking levels, all like the context rot issues.So many interesting, you know, kind of, uh, uh, capabilities that are, that are now improvingswyx: one sector that you have. That's interesting.Industries and Datasetsswyx: Uh, people are roughly familiar with healthcare and legal, but you have public sector in there.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Uh, what's that? Like, what, what, what is that?Aaron Levie: Yeah, and, and we actually test against, I dunno, maybe 10 industries.We, we end up usually just cutting a few that we think have interesting gains. All extras, won a lot of like government type documents. Um,swyx: what is that? What is it? Government type documents?Aaron Levie: Government filings. Like a taxswyx: return, likeAaron Levie: a probably not tax returns. It would be more of what would go the government be using, uh, as data.So, okay. Um, so think about research that, that type of, of, of data sets. And then we have financial services for things like data rooms and what would be in an investment prospectus. Uhhuh,swyx: that one you can dog food.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. [00:34:00] So, uh, so we, we run the models, um, in now, you know, more of an agent mode, but, but still with, with kinda limited capacity and just try and see like on a, like, for like basis, what are the improvements?And, and again, we just continue to be blown away by. How, how good these models are getting.swyx: Yeah, I mean, I think every serious AI company needs something like that where like, well, this is the work we do. Here's our company eval. Yeah. And if you don't have it, well, you're not a serious AI company.Aaron Levie: There's two dimensions, right?So there's, there's like, how are the models improving? And so which models should you either recommend a customer use, which one should you adopt? But then every single day, we're making changes to our agents. And you need to knowswyx: if you regressed,Aaron Levie: if you know. Yeah. You know, I've been fully convinced that the whole agent observability and eval space is gonna be a massive space.Um, super excited for what Braintrust is doing, excited for, you know, Lang Smith, all the things. And I think what you're going to, I mean, this is like every enter like literally every enterprise right now. It's like the AI companies are the customers of these tools. Every enterprise will have this. Yeah, you'll just [00:35:00] have to have an eval.Of all of your work and like, we'll, you'll have an eval of your RFP generation, you'll have an eval of your sales material creation. You'll have an eval of your, uh, invoice processing. And, and as you, you know, buy or use new agentic systems, you are gonna need to know like, what's the quality of your, of your pipeline.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: Um, so huge, huge market with agent evals.swyx: Yeah.Building the Agent Teamswyx: And, and you know, I'm gonna shout out your, your team a bit, uh, your CTO, Ben, uh, did a great talk with us last year. Awesome. And he's gonna come back again. Oh, cool. For World's Fair.Aaron Levie: Yep.swyx: Just talk about your team, like brag a little bit. I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there's, there's lots of really smart people at work during all this.Aaron Levie: Biggest shout out, uh, is we have a, we have a couple folks at Dya, uh, Sidarth, uh, that, that kind of run this. They're like a, you know, kind of tag tag team duo on our evals, Ben, our CTO, heavily involved Yasha, head of ai, uh, you know, a bunch of folks. And, um, evals is one part of the story. And then just like the full, you know, kind of AI.An agent team [00:36:00] is, uh, is a, is a pretty, you know, is core to this whole effort. So there's probably, I don't know, like maybe a few dozen people that are like the epicenter. And then you just have like layers and layers of, of kind of concentric circles of okay, then there's a search team that supports them and an infrastructure team that supports them.And it's starting to ripple through the entire company. But there's that kind of core agent team, um, that's a pretty, pretty close, uh, close knit group.swyx: The search team is separate from the infra team.Aaron Levie: I mean, we have like every, every layer of the stack we have to kind of do, except for just pure public cloud.Um, but um, you know, we, we store, I don't even know what our public numbers are in, you know, but like, you can just think about it as like a lot of data is, is stored in box. And so we have, and you have every layer of the, of the stack of, you know, how do you manage the data, the file system, the metadata system, the search system, just all of those components.And then they all are having to understand that now you've got this new customer. Which is the agent, and they've been building for two types of customers in the past. They've been building for users and they've been building for like applications. [00:37:00] And now you've got this new agent user, and it comes in with a difference of it, of property sometimes, like, hey, maybe sometimes we should do embeddings, an embedding based, you know, kind of search versus, you know, your, your typical semantic search.Like, it's just like you have to build the, the capabilities to support all of this. And we're testing stuff, throwing things away, something doesn't work and, and not relevant. It's like just, you know, total chaos. But all of those teams are supporting the agent team that is kind of coming up with its requirements of what, what do we need?swyx: Yeah. No, uh, we just came from, uh, fireside chat where you did, and you, you talked about how you're doing this. It's, it's kind of like an internal startup. Yeah. Within the broader company. The broader company's like 3000 people. Yeah. But you know, there's, there's a, this is a core team of like, well, here's the innovation center.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And like that every company kind of is run this way.Aaron Levie: Yeah. I wanna be sensitive. I don't call it the innovation center. Yeah. Only because I think everybody has to do innovation. Um, there, there's a part of the, the, the company that is, is sort of do or die for the agent wave.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And it only happens to be more of my focus simply because it's existential that [00:38:00] we get it right.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: All of the supporting systems are necessary. All of the surrounding adjacent capabilities are necessary. Like the only reason we get to be a platform where you'd run an agent is because we have a security feature or a compliance feature, or a governance feature that, that some team is working on.But that's not gonna be the make or break of, of whether we get agents right. Like that already exists and we need to keep innovating there. I don't know what the right, exact precise number is, but it's not a thousand people and it's not 10 people. There's a number of people that are like the, the kind of like, you know, startup within the company that are the make or break on everything related to AI agents, you know, leveraging our platform and letting you work with your data.And that's where I spend a lot of my time, and Ben and Yosh and Diego and Teri, you know, these are just, you know, people that, that, you know, kind of across the team. Are working.swyx: Yeah. Amazing.Read Write Agent WorkflowsJeff Huber: How do you, how do you think about, I mean, you talked a lot about like kinda read workflows over your box data. Yep.Right. You know, gen search questions, queries, et cetera. But like, what about like, write or like authoring workflows?Aaron Levie: Yes. I've [00:39:00] already probably revealed too much actually now that I think about it. So, um, I've talked about whatever,Jeff Huber: whatever you can.Aaron Levie: Okay. It's just us. It's just us. Yeah. Okay. Of course, of course.So I, I guess I would just, uh, I'll make it a little bit conceptual, uh, because again, I've already, I've already said things that are not even ga but, but we've, we've kinda like danced around it publicly, so I, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just like, hopefully nobody watches this, um, episode. No.swyx: It's tidbits for the Heidi engaged to go figure out like what exactly, um, you know, is, is your sort of line of thinking.Sure. They can connect the dots.Aaron Levie: Yeah. So, so I would say that, that, uh, we, you know, as a, as a place where you have your enterprise content, there's a use case where I want to, you know, have an agent read that data and answer questions for me. And then there's a use case where I want the agent to create something.And use the file system to create something or store off data that it's working on, or be able to have, you know, various files that it's writing to about the work it's doing. So we do see it as a total read write. The harder problem has so far been the read only because, because again, you have that kind of like 10 [00:40:00] million to one ratio problem, whereas rights are a lot of, that's just gonna come from the model and, and we just like, we'll just put it in the file system and kinda use it.So it's a little bit of a technically easier problem, but the only part that's like, not necessarily technically hard, it is just like it's not yet perfected in the state of the ecosystem is, you know, building a beautiful PowerPoint presentation. It's still a hard problem for these models. Like, like we still, you know, like, like these formats are just, we're not built for.They'reswyx: working on it.Aaron Levie: They're, they're working on it. Everybody's working on it.swyx: Every launch is like, well, we do PowerPoint now.Aaron Levie: We're getting, yeah, getting a lot, getting a lot of better each time. But then you'll do this thing where you'll ask the update one slide and all of a sudden, like the fonts will be just like a little bit different, you know, on two of the slides, or it moved, you know, some shape over to the left a little bit.And again, these are the kind of things that, like in code, obviously you could really care about if you really care about, you know, how beautiful is the code, but at the end, user doesn't notice all those problems and file creation, the end user instantly sees it. You're [00:41:00] like, ah, like paragraph three, like, you literally just changed the font on me.Like it's a totally different font and like midway through the document. Mm-hmm. Those are the kind of things that you run into a lot of in the, in the content creation side. So, mm-hmm. We are gonna have native agents. That do all of those things, they'll be powered by the leading kind of models and labs.But the thing that I think is, is probably gonna be a much bigger idea over time is any agent on any system, again, using Box as a file system for its work, and in that kind of scenario, we don't necessarily care what it's putting in the file system. It could put its memory files, it could put its, you know, specification, you know, documents.It could put, you know, whatever its markdown files are, or it could, you know, generate PDFs. It's just like, it's a workspace that is, is sort of sandboxed off for its work. People can collaborate into it, it can share with other people. And, and so we, we were thinking a lot about what's the right, you know, kind of way to, to deliver that at scale.Docs Graphs and Founder Modeswyx: I wanted to come into sort of the sort of AI transformation or AI sort of, uh, operations things. [00:42:00] Um, one of the tweets that you, that you wanted to talk about, this is just me going through your tweets, by the way. Oh, okay. I mean, like, this is, you readAaron Levie: one by one,swyx: you're the, you're the easiest guest to prep for because you, you already have like, this is the, this is what I'm interested in.I'm like, okay, well, areAaron Levie: we gonna get to like, like February, January or something? Where are we in the, in the timelines? How far back are we going?swyx: Can you, can you describe boxes? A set of skills? Right? Like that, that's like, that's like one of the extremes of like, well if you, you just turn everything into a markdown file.Yeah. Then your agent can run your company. Uh, like you just have to write, find the right sequence of words toAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: To do it.Aaron Levie: Sorry, isthatswyx: the question? So I think the question is like, what if we documented everything? Yes. The way that you exactly said like,Aaron Levie: yes.swyx: Um, let's get all the Fortune five hundreds, uh, prepared for agents.Yes. And like, you know, everything's in golden and, and nicely filed away and everything. Yes. What's missing? Like, what's left, right? LikeAaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: You've, you've run your company for a decade. LikeAaron Levie: Yeah. I think the challenge is that, that that information changes a week later. And because something happened in the market for that [00:43:00] customer, or us as a company that now has to go get updated, and so these systems are living and breathing and they have to experience reality and updates to reality, which right now is probably gonna be humans, you know, kinda giving those, giving them the updates.And, you know, there is this piece about context graphs as as, uh, that kinda went very viral. Yeah. And I, I, I was like a, i, I, I thought it was super provocative. I agreed with many parts of it. I disagree with a few parts around. You know, it's not gonna be as easy as as just if we just had the agent traces, then we can finally do that work because there's just like, there's so much more other stuff that that's happening that, that we haven't been able to capture and digitize.And I think they actually represented that in the piece to be clear. But like there's just a lot of work, you know, that that has to, you just can't have only skills files, you know, for your company because it's just gonna be like, there's gonna be a lot of other stuff that happens. Yeah. Change over time.Yeah. Most companies are practically apprenticeships.swyx: Most companies are practically apprenticeships. LikeJeff Huber: every new employee who joins the team, [00:44:00] like you span one to three months. Like ramping them up.Aaron Levie: Yes. AllJeff Huber: that tat knowledgeAaron Levie: isJeff Huber: not written down.Aaron Levie: Yes.Jeff Huber: But like, it would have to be if you wanted to like give it to an Asian.Right. And so like that seems to me like to beAaron Levie: one is I think you're gonna see again a premium on companies that can document this. Mm-hmm. Much. There'll be a huge premium on that because, because you know, can you shorten that three month ramp cycle to a two week ramp cycle? That's an instant productivity gain.Can you re dramatically reduce rework in the organization because you've documented where all the stuff is and where the answers are. Can you make your average employee as good as your 90th percentile employee because you've captured the knowledge that's sort of in the heads of, of those top employees and make that available.So like you can see some very clear productivity benefits. Mm-hmm. If you had a company culture of making sure you know your information was captured, digitized, put in a format that was agent ready and then made available to agents to work with, and then you just, again, have this reality of like add a 10,000 person [00:45:00] company.Mapping that to the, you know, access structure of the company is just a hard problem. Is like, is like, yeah, well, you just, not every piece of information that's digitized can be shared to everybody. And so now you have to organize that in a way that actually works. There was a pretty good piece, um, this, this, uh, this piece called your company as a file is a file system.I, did you see that one?swyx: Nope.Aaron Levie: Uh, yes. You saw it. Yeah. And, and, uh, I actually be curious your thoughts on it. Um, like, like an interesting kind of like, we, we agree with it because, because that's how we see the world and, uh,swyx: okay. We, we have it up on screen. Oh,Aaron Levie: okay. Yeah. But, but it's all about basically like, you know, we've already, we, we, we already organized in this kind of like, you know, permission structure way.Uh, and, and these are the kind of, you know, natural ways that, that agents can now work with data. So it's kind of like this, this, you know, kind of interesting metaphor, but I do think companies will have to start to think about how they start to digitize more, more of that data. What was your take?Jeff Huber: Yeah, I mean, like the company's probably like an acid compliant file system.Aaron Levie: Uh,Jeff Huber: yeah. Which I'm guessing boxes, right? So, yeah. Yes.swyx: Yeah. [00:46:00]Jeff Huber: Which you have a great piece on, but,swyx: uh, yeah. Well, uh, I, I, my, my, my direction is a little bit like, I wanna rewind a little bit to the graph word you said that there, that's a magic trigger word for us. I always ask what's your take on knowledge graphs?Yeah. Uh, ‘cause every, especially at every data database person, I just wanna see what they think. There's been knowledge graphs, hype cycles, and you've seen it all. So.Aaron Levie: Hmm. I actually am not the expert in knowledge graphs, so, so that you might need toswyx: research, you don't need to be an expert. Yeah. I think it's just like, well, how, how seriously do people take it?Yeah. Like, is is, is there a lot of potential in the, in the HOVI?Aaron Levie: Uh, well, can I, can I, uh, understand first if it's, um, is this a loaded question in the sense of are you super pro, super con, super anti medium? Iswyx: see pro, I see pros and cons. Okay. Uh, but I, I think your opinion should be independent of mine.Aaron Levie: Yeah. No, no, totally. Yeah. I just want to see what I'm stepping into.swyx: No, I know. It's a, and it's a huge trigger word for a lot of people out Yeah. In our audience. And they're, they're trying to figure out why is that? Because whyAaron Levie: is this such aswyx: hot item for them? Because a lot of people get graph religion.And they're like, everything's a graph. Of course you have to represent it as a graph. Well, [00:47:00] how do you solve your knowledge? Um, changing over time? Well, it's a graph.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And, and I think there, there's that line of work and then there's, there's a lot of people who are like, well, you don't need it. And both are right.Aaron Levie: Yeah. And what do the people who say you don't need it, what are theyswyx: arguing for Mark down files. Oh, sure, sure. Simplicity.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Versus it's, it's structure versus less structure. Right. That's, that's all what it is. I do.Aaron Levie: I think the tricky thing is, um, is, is again, when this gets met with real humans, they're just going to their computer.They're just working with some people on Slack or teams. They're just sharing some data through a collaborative file system and Google Docs or Box or whatever. I certainly like the vision of most, most knowledge graph, you know, kind of futuristic kind of ways of thinking about it. Uh, it's just like, you know, it's 2026.We haven't seen it yet. Kind of play out as as, I mean, I remember. Do you remember the, um, in like, actually I don't, I don't even know how old you guys are, but I'll for, for to show my age. I remember 17 years ago, everybody thought enterprises would just run on [00:48:00] Wikis. Yeah. And, uh, confluence and, and not even, I mean, confluence actually took off for engineering for sure.Like unquestionably. But like, this was like everything would be in the w. And I think based on our, uh, our, uh, general style of, of, of what we were building, like we were just like, I don't know, people just like wanna workspace. They're gonna collaborate with other people.swyx: Exactly. Yeah. So you were, you were anti-knowledge graph.Aaron Levie: Not anti, not anti. Soswyx: not nonAaron Levie: I'm not, I'm not anti. ‘cause I think, I think your search system, I just think these are two systems that probably, but like, I'm, I'm not in any religious war. I don't want to be in anybody's YouTube comments on this. There's not a fight for me.swyx: We, we love YouTube comments. We're, we're, we're get into comments.Aaron Levie: Okay. Uh, but like, but I, I, it's mostly just a virtue of what we built. Yeah. And we just continued down that path. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And, um, and that, that was what we pursued. But I'm not, this is not a, you know, kind of, this is not a, uh, it'sswyx: not existential for you. Great.Aaron Levie: We're happy to plug into somebody else's graph.We're happy to feed data into it. We're happy for [00:49:00] agents to, to talk to multiple systems. Not, not our fight.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: But I need your answer. Yeah. Graphs or nerd Snipes is very effective nerd.swyx: See this is, this is one, one opinion and then I've,Jeff Huber: and I think that the actual graph structure is emergent in the mind of the agent.Ah, in the same way it is in the mind of the human. And that's a more powerful graph ‘cause it actually involved over time.swyx: So don't tell me how to graph. I'll, I'll figure it out myself. Exactly. Okay. All right. AndJeff Huber: what's yours?swyx: I like the, the Wiki approach. Uh, my, I'm actually

In this episode of the Marathon Mentality Podcast, M|M sits down with entrepreneur Bryan Whatley for a wide-ranging conversation about building businesses, navigating risk, and developing the mindset required to succeed in high-stakes industries. Bryan shares the story behind his entrepreneurial journey, including how he built and scaled companies in complex and highly regulated markets. The conversation dives into the realities of starting and growing businesses, where success often depends on navigating uncertainty, learning quickly, and maintaining resilience when things inevitably go wrong. M|M and Bryan explore the psychology of entrepreneurship, including why many people underestimate the emotional and mental challenges of running a company. Bryan explains how discipline, long-term thinking, and the willingness to continuously adapt are essential traits for founders operating in competitive environments. The discussion also highlights the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people. Bryan reflects on building strong teams, identifying talent, and why trust and alignment inside an organization often determine whether a business succeeds or stalls. Throughout the episode, Bryan emphasizes that business success is rarely a straight path. Instead, it requires patience, calculated risk-taking, and the ability to learn from setbacks while continuing to move forward. The conversation reinforces a core principle of the Marathon Mentality philosophy: long-term success is built through consistent effort, strategic thinking, and the ability to keep moving even when the outcome is uncertain. Topics Covered Bryan Whatley's entrepreneurial journey Building businesses in complex industries Risk, resilience, and long-term thinking The psychological challenges of entrepreneurship Hiring, leadership, and building strong teams Adapting to uncertainty in business Learning from failure and setbacks Why discipline and consistency matter in business Key Takeaways Entrepreneurship requires emotional resilience as much as skill Strong teams are often the difference between success and failure The ability to adapt quickly is critical in competitive industries Long-term thinking consistently beats short-term decision-making

Tu bloques sur ce que tu pourrais bien raconter sur LinkedIn ?Tu ne te sens pas (encore) expert·e ? Je comprends.Dans cette Minute Marine, je reviens sur une discussion avec Emmanuelle, une consultante qui s'est longtemps tue pour cette raison… avant de se débloquer complètement.On y parle de comment développer sa boîte, même quand on ne se sent pas encore expert·e,et de quelle posture adopter pour communiquer de façon convaincante : explorateur·ice, chercheur·se, ou curateur·ice ?Et toi ?Tu te sens dans quelle posture aujourd'hui ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

If things feel excruciating in your life right that means you are very close to the finished line and that is precisely why you cannot stop, not now. Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

When I first came up for the idea for the Culture Study Romance Book Club back in January, I knew I wanted every edition to have two books: one contemporary, and one historical. Part of this desire was selfish (I personally gravitate towards historicals) but I also wanted to explore the contrast between what you can do with a romance set in the past (with its particular confines) and one set in the present (with seemingly none, but actually so many). I also knew that I wanted to start with M/M romances (hi, Heated Rivalry) and that Melody had sung the very loud praises of renowned historical queer romance author Cat Sebastian's mid-century queer romance — particularly You Should Be So Lucky, which managed to combine baseball (one of Melody's true loves) with romance (Melody's secondary love). And listeners, I hope this is clear: when it comes to so many things, but romance in particular, I listen to Melody! And when Melody asked if we should try and get Cat on the pod, I said "obvi please try." AND THEN SHE MADE IT HAPPEN. This remains a total marvel of hosting a podcast: sometimes the people you admire so deeply... can also come on your pod. This is a long preamble to the overarching point: Cat Sebastian isn't just an absurdly talented (and successful) author of queer historical romance. She's also whipsmart when it comes to the crafting of these romances, the idea of vibes vs. plot (and third act break-ups in particular), how she translates the historical record, and so much more. This pod is for you if you're at all interested in romance, obviously, but also if you're at all interested in how we think about the past as a narrative playground. Final note: We had such a good time recording this episode and laughed one billion times — I hope that joy translates when you listen! GREAT NEWS: WE HAVE VERY GOOD EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS NOW! They come out within 24 hours of the pod, so you just have to be a little patient and then come back and click here. We pay an actual human for help with these, so thank you for either being a paid subscriber or listening to the ads that make this model possible!If you're a paid subscriber and haven't yet set up your subscriber RSS feed in your podcast player, here's the EXTREMELY easy how-to .And if you're having any other issues with your Patreon subscription — please get in touch! Email me at annehelenpetersen @ gmail OR submit a request to Patreon Support. Thank you for making the switch with us — the podcast in particular is much more at home here!Thanks to the sponsors of today's episode!Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/CULTURE to find and instantly book a doctor you love today.If you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, bed, or classy full-length mirror, head over to Article.com.Go to zbiotics.com/CULTURESTUDY to get 15% off your first order when you use CULTURESTUDY at checkout.Use code CULTURE at jonesroadbeauty.com to get a Free Shimmer Face Oil with your first purchase!Show Notes:As Cat suggested, the best way to keep up with her is by subscribing to her intermittent newsletter hereYou can find a breakdown of all of Cat's books and their time periods here (I found this very helpful) You can buy Cat's new book, Star Shipped, HERE!!!!A great AMA with Cat here Cat mentions the book Coming Out Under Fire: The History of Gay Men and Women in World War II, by Allan BérubéA listener mentions The Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden, and Cat and Anna enthusiastically co-sign the recommendationCat recommends: The Duke by Anna Cowan (out April 28); A Gentleman's Gentleman by T.J. Alexander; When the Tides Held the Moon by Venessa Vida Kelley; and An Island Princess Starts a Scandal by Adriana HerreraWe're currently looking for your questions for future episodes about:HISTORICAL GOSSIP! We're talking with Nichole Hill, host of Our Ancestors Were Messy, about hot, messy, ideologically fascinating world of Black gossip columns during the golden era of Black newspapers (1930 to 1960). What do you want to know about how the Black press worked during this era — and how gossip in particular worked (both about stars, local celebrities, and normal people?) There's so much here!!!HILARY DUFF!!! The comeback, the new album, let's talk about all of it — with Hilary Duff expert/forever-fan ALLIE JONES (also Melody loves Hilary Duff so much and will be very sad if we don't get enough questions for this episode) Conversion Therapy (how it affects people late into life, how it still exists, etc. etc — we're talking to Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez about his new book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and there are so many connections to the ways the current administration is currently trying to "de-trans" people in custody) KID INFLUENCERS — what happens when your parent puts you on camera before you can really consent? We're talking with the author of a new book about the ramifications of growing up within these worlds — it's gonna be so good. Anything you need advice for/want musings about for the AAA segment. You can ask about anything, it's literally the name of the segment.As always, you can submit your questions (and ideas for future eps) hereFor this week's discussion: OH MY GOD WE COULD TALK FOREVER! If you could set a queer romance at any time, when would it be? What would your characters be doing, and how would they fill their days? Also who wants to be best friends with Cat (me)

Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ The Shift from Attention to Trust In this compelling episode, Ashleigh Vogstad, CEO of Transcends, joins Vince Menzione to discuss the tectonic shifts occurring in the global partner ecosystem. Ashleigh shares her firsthand experiences studying AI at Oxford, the rise of the “Trust Economy,” and the controversial Amazon vs. Perplexity lawsuit. They dive deep into the practicalities of becoming a “Frontier Firm,” the importance of building proprietary AI agents, and the ways Gen Z and AI-driven marketplaces are revolutionizing the buyer journey. Whether you are looking to win Microsoft Partner of the Year or navigate the demise of traditional SaaS, this conversation provides a strategic roadmap for leading through the AI revolution. Key Takeaways The economy is shifting from a focus on human attention to a foundation of verified trust. Future commerce will involve “selling to machines” as AI agents begin making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans. Microsoft is prioritizing “Frontier Firms” that integrate AI into every customer interaction and internal process. Gen Z buyers are prioritizing product value and “dupes” over traditional brand names, with 75% of buyers expected to be Gen Z by 2030. To win Partner of the Year, organizations must publicly celebrate “better together” stories with validated customer wins. Modern leaders should transition from a “growth mindset” to a “frontier mindset” to keep pace with rapid technological change. https://youtu.be/xJmd43NvfnI If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Trust Economy, Selling to Machines, Amazon vs Perplexity Lawsuit, Frontier Firm, AI Agents, Copilot Studio, Anthropic Claude, Microsoft Partner of the Year, B2B Marketplaces, Gen Z Buyer Behavior, Digital Freedom, AI Therapy, Ray Kurzweil Singularity, Substack Growth, Co-selling Partnerships, MCI Funding, Azure Accelerate, Agentic AI, Transcending Tech, Ashleigh Vogstad. Transcript Asleigh Vogstad Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: The attention economy is about selling to human beings. Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines. [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out crowd. Today I’m joined by Ashley Waad. The CEO of transcends for this compelling discussion. Ash, welcome back to the podcasts. [00:00:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s so good to be here, Vince. Thank you. Uh, [00:00:37] Vince Menzione: so well, we’re back in Boca again and we were just here yesterday for the Ultimate Partner Executive Winter Retreat in person. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: What a great event we had together. [00:00:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: It was phenomenal. Thank you so much for having us there and on stage and, and genuinely the community is like a family, so seeing so many familiar faces and spending some quality time was just great. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: It has really, truly become like family. It really, I’m, I’m, I’m having so much fun with this and getting to watch. [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: Not just our business grow and our community grow, but to see all of our friends and, uh, organizations like Transcends that have been with us since the beginning, since the very first ultimate partner acting even before the first ultimate partner. And, uh. We were just talking about. I’d love to catch up with what you’ve been doing. [00:01:22] Vince Menzione: Like you just came, you’ve been on a whirlwind. I mean, you’re always, every time like it’s, where’s Ash? She’s, uh, she’s on a plane again, or she’s on, she’s on the slopes. But tell us where you were just this week. [00:01:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. The week started in a snowstorm, actually transporting myself from Whistler. I didn’t know if I would make it to the airport, but then down to Silicon Valley and [00:01:45] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:01:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: Wow, that place is just inspiring and eyeopening. I mean, seeing the Nvidia campus, a MD, it’s really just other worldly and it had me reflecting on, it’s [00:02:00] Vince Menzione: not Whistler. Yeah, it’s [00:02:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: definitely not Whistler. Definitely not Whistler [00:02:05] Vince Menzione: about, [00:02:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: um, yeah, it just had me reflecting on being down there. I used to spend a lot of time in the Valley around 2017 and. [00:02:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: In this theme of AI and kind of what’s really coming, I was, I was thinking about, I had met this woman, Julia Moss Bridge, who’s a neuroscientist studying ai. She had a project called Loving Ai, and I was down there when they had borrowed Sophia, this humanoid robot from S and Robotics. [00:02:32] Vince Menzione: Oh yes. Yes. [00:02:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: Really interesting. [00:02:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Sophia’s actually a citizen of Saudi. Mm-hmm. First, first robot to actually be made citizen of a country. So they had Sophia set up and the part that was just mind boggling at the time was that Sophia was hosting in real life therapy sessions with actual human beings sitting across the table. And what really struck me as. [00:02:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Kind of just, you know, that was only eight, nine years ago. And that was esoteric. Wacky and [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: eerie. [00:03:05] Ashleigh Vogstad: Weird. [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: Eerie at the time. [00:03:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Incredibly eerie. Yeah. I mean, a, a human getting, uh, you know, therapy sessions from a robot sitting across the table. Yeah. And it just had me thinking how far we’ve come today. In 2025, Harvard Business Review said that therapy is actually the number one use case for ai. [00:03:26] Vince Menzione: I’ve heard that. That is striking. I go back to COVID. We were having this conversation last night at at the dinner for the Ultimate Partner event, and I think that COVID allowed us to transcend, [00:03:42] Ashleigh Vogstad: mm-hmm. [00:03:42] Vince Menzione: No pun intended there, but actually accelerate where we are today, that the acceptance of AI and the acceleration, or the ability to accept change so quickly. [00:03:56] Vince Menzione: Started with COVID because we were so, so we were forced on whatever it was, March 10th I think, here in the United States to shut down everything and move to this remote life. [00:04:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm-hmm. [00:04:09] Vince Menzione: And I think we’ve been shocked by that. I think our systems have all been shocked by that. And then here comes chat GBT in November of 2022 and we’re like. [00:04:20] Vince Menzione: Shocked in some respects, but like really everyone has embraced it in such a strong way, and now we’re getting. It’s almost daily update. You know, we’re gonna talk, I know we’re gonna talk about Anthropic and some of the things that’s been happening just in this last month that are striking and changing that have a lot of organizations trying to navigate, which is what, you know, you, you help organizations do. [00:04:43] Vince Menzione: But it feels like this is happening so fast and will continue to happen so fast. And as I said yesterday, I don’t know what this world’s gonna look like by 2030. [00:04:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, and I think the thing is, is that nobody knows what the world is gonna look like in 2030. I’ve been reading Ray Kurz Well’s, the Singularity is nearer, so the original book, the Singularity is near and he’s known to be a very accurate predictionist on the future. [00:05:11] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. But even with someone like that, you know, there, there nobody really knows what the world is gonna look like. And when you talk about COVID. At transcends, we have a value of digital freedom. So I founded the business in 2018, which was pre COVID. I as a fully remote organization, and at the time that was, you know, more groundbreaking, but then very quickly with CI that, that became the so-called new normal. [00:05:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: But we’re always thinking about. You know, remote first doesn’t mean remote only, and I think in this tide of what you’ve talked about, technological change being more acceptable and the pace of change. One of the interesting things that we see as a go-to-market agency is that in-person events are increasing. [00:05:56] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:05:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: People want and crave the face-to-face. Just like with the ultimate partner series. [00:06:02] Vince Menzione: I felt it. So it was striking yesterday. It, it seems like it’s, again, this was event number nine for us, but to see the, um, uh, receptiveness isn’t the right term, but it was this, uh, people, the, the embracing. Of seeing each other and hugging each other and being in the same room with each other. [00:06:22] Vince Menzione: And even people that didn’t know each other, like by the, the, as the day evolved, this, uh, connection that they all seemed to have with one another during the sessions and participating, everyone actively participated in the sessions. And, um, I said this in the beginning, we’re not a Slack channel and we’re not like some post on LinkedIn. [00:06:43] Vince Menzione: Uh, we’re there, there’s no playbook that’s set today around partnerships or even go to markets and marketing that we could espouse and say, this is the playbook for the next year. Right. It’s, it’s changing so rapidly. [00:06:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: So rapidly, [00:06:57] Vince Menzione: and you’ve embraced it. And I, and what we’re gonna talk about right now, I mean, I, I, you know, you’ve embraced AI in such a strong way. [00:07:04] Vince Menzione: Um, personally and with your business, I want to, I wanna dive in here a little bit. First of all, a couple things For those of those who are listening who don’t know you, I think maybe just a moment about transcends and your role, and then I wanna dive in on how you’re thinking about ai because I know you’re doing some things personally. [00:07:22] Vince Menzione: I want you to share that with, with our listeners and viewers today. [00:07:25] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. And I just wanna comment that it was a cool moment yesterday being up on stage with yourself and Mark Monday from ServiceNow and having the audience so engaged and active and Nina Harding from Microsoft stepping up and entering the conversation. [00:07:40] Vince Menzione: So cool. [00:07:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: It just made for such a collaborative experience, which was a cool moment, but yeah. Um, so. I founded this business, transcends a go-to-market agency after being at Microsoft myself. And really our differentiation is deep strategic partnerships with hyperscalers, whether that’s AWS, Google, Microsoft, and you know, that. [00:08:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: It comes with a challenge to be on the leading edge of technology. [00:08:08] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:08:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: it, it’s really an imperative for our business and we are an AI first firm. Microsoft talks a lot about Frontier Firm, and I’ll take a, a different kind of angle on it. You know, when I think about Frontier. I now think about it as instead of the growth mindset, I now think about a frontier mindset. [00:08:28] Vince Menzione: Frontier mindset. You have to change my principles. [00:08:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, maybe, like you said, the world is changing so rapidly. Yeah, it’s [00:08:36] Vince Menzione: changing rapidly. [00:08:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what a frontier mindset means is that as we’re approaching work for our clients, we are thinking about AI innovation in every single customer. Interaction, customer innovation. [00:08:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: So today we’re building AI agents into much of the work that we’re delivering for clients. And as a business owner and leader, I’ve been challenged to also think critically around how I’m choosing to run the company. And right now we’re going through a huge overhaul of where we have data sitting in silos and different applications. [00:09:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yep. And getting that into one place with one view so we can start layering on more insight. AI innovation. [00:09:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And data’s such an critical part, part of this, as we, we talked about yesterday. But you know, even the, what you said, which is, would, would’ve been striking a year ago to say, we’re an AI first, uh, agency isn’t as striking anymore. [00:09:32] Vince Menzione: Uh, we heard Nina when we were having this conversation on stage yesterday, say that it’s an imperative at Microsoft that the agencies that they choose to work with, the third party vendors that they work with have to be an AI first organization. I have to be a frontier firm, and so I’m a, I am sensitive to the word frontier firm. [00:09:53] Vince Menzione: I understand why Microsoft uses it and I understand the value of what we used to call, you know, customer zero or back in the day we used to say eating your own dog food, but essentially being an organization that has leaned in, in a way, and with ai. Even more so, so important to do it. So tell us, I know you’ve done some things personally as well, but tell, tell us what you’ve done with the organization. [00:10:18] Vince Menzione: Uh, you talked about data and making data available and having, having a true data state as opposed to silos of data, but then you also made some personal investments and sacrifices. I would say. [00:10:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. [00:10:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. In terms of what you’re doing around ai, [00:10:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: so I mean, let’s start on the personal side. I’m the CEO of my organization, and you can read in books or news articles that it is critical for AI transformation to start at the C-suite and specifically in the CEO seat. [00:10:46] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:10:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: And that really. Landed for me and so I’m personally leading in About two weeks ago, I built an agent, just end-to-end on my own, got into copilot studio. Wow. Got comfortable with the interface. You know, I was clunky moving around in there at first, chose my model. You know, I went with one of the anthropic Claude models for this particular project and built up an agent that can deliver executive communications like. [00:11:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Thought leadership blogs, uh, LinkedIn posts, but in a particular human being’s voice by ingesting things like their social profiles, their SharePoint sites, where they live and work. And it has been so surprising doing an ab test between just what a chat GBT or a copilot could produce. [00:11:32] Yeah. [00:11:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: In comparison with the authenticity of the voice coming from the agent. [00:11:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it was just a really cool experience to roll up the sleeves and get in there. But also I think the, the investment that you’re referring to is, I made a big decision to return to school and uh, got accepted to go to Oxford. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:11:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I’m studying artificial intelligence there. [00:11:54] Vince Menzione: That is incredible. That is incredible. [00:11:57] Vince Menzione: Oxford, uh, we’ve heard of that school before here in the United States. [00:12:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, it’s been a really great experience. It’s in person, so I’m traveling there about every 60 to 90 days and living on campus. I mean, really, Oxford isn’t. Formally a campus, it’s sort of a, a city and a university all, all ruled into one and the experience has been really powerful. [00:12:21] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. One of the things I wanted to get outta the program was a more global perspective, and it’s been fascinating to me that about half the faculty so far, or or professors, guest lecturers that have been coming into the program have been from China or very direct experience working in the Chinese market. [00:12:38] Vince Menzione: That is fascinating. [00:12:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s been a completely different view. Or for example, you know, really digging into some of the legal cases that are driving precedence for how AI is interacting with corporations. [00:12:51] Vince Menzione: Mm. [00:12:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: One of the big ones for me has been looking at Amazon versus p perplexity. This is still a live case that’s happening right now. [00:12:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you know, I think it was Forbes magazine that the headline was the End of Commerce for this case because it’s really about. How human beings are being replaced with machines and hearing some of the world’s leading thinkers, leading AI researchers on these topics has just been really expansive. [00:13:19] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. [00:13:20] Vince Menzione: I mean, it’s, this started a couple years ago with, uh, Hollywood, in fact. Suing the industry or suing the technology companies with regards to, uh, employment, right? Mm-hmm. About the, the, uh, copyright infringement and what’s gonna happen in the entertainment industry. And I think that was just a one very small example. [00:13:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, voice people think about DeepFakes. Yeah. And they think about video, but actually voice is a big issue. And you look at the, um, you know, the what happened between Scarlett Johansson and her voice in her, and then open AI rolling out a voice that sounded identical. Sounds like her. [00:13:59] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:13:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: To Scarlett Johansen and, and where that went. [00:14:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s, it, this is a new ground for, for everybody that we’re going through right now. [00:14:07] Vince Menzione: It is. We can dive and go in so many different directions, but let’s talk about marketing and advertising since that’s kind of. Transcends core, and a lot of the people that watch and listen to us are in the partnership world. [00:14:22] Vince Menzione: They’re leading organizations, they own organizations, the the chief executives or CVPs of organizations. Let’s talk about advertising and where that’s going. [00:14:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. [00:14:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:14:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, uh, I love Marshall McCluen. He’s a Canadian theor, uh, media theorist, and in 1964, he very famously said, the medium is the message. [00:14:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what that really means when you peel back the layers is that every type of communication medium has these inherent biases. And I think what we’re experiencing right now is this new medium of artificial intelligence, and I’m really interested in exploring what that means for the media world. So. If I gonna take you back to 1997, there’s this really famous, the Innovator’s Dilemma. [00:15:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. Kind of a classic business 1 0 1 type book by Clayton Christensen. Yes. And he talks about this theory of disruption where new technologies, emerging technologies start at the low end of the market. They gain this momentum and they eventually displace incumbents. And you know, sometimes seemingly out of nowhere. [00:15:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And Microsoft was a good example of this at that time. [00:15:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Def, [00:15:32] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:15:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: All the big players. All the big players. I mean, Google go for search as well, right? So that’s one of the classic examples. And so. If we look at storytelling technology, you have things like chat, GBT and Sora entering the scene. And in the beginning, you know, they’re producing a shitty first draft. [00:15:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, you know, it’s things like post-apocalyptic dogs with five finger human beings. Yeah. Things like this. But, you know, and they really lacked emotional resonance. But as we all know. That’s not the case anymore. No, it’s [00:16:05] Vince Menzione: not. [00:16:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: AI is increasingly producing content that is very powerful and is starting to resonate with people. [00:16:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, I’m definitely not a neuroscientist, but if we, we look into the neuroscience, it’s your cortical sal circuit that. Kind of is responsible for pattern recognition and it compares what you’re seeing in the real world with what you expect to see. So when you take this into a space of advertising, you know, if there’s an ad that is AI generated, that is just weird and kind of. [00:16:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: Tweaking for you. [00:16:39] Vince Menzione: Like that robot we were talking about earlier, [00:16:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: like the robot we were Exactly, yeah. Like Sophia, you enter what psychologists call the uncanny valley, so it’s like what you’re looking at isn’t exactly what you’re expecting to see and the Spidey sense is, is tweaking. You know, that’s a low place of emotional resonance. [00:16:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: This world is changing really, really quickly and we’re seeing AI generated media make huge impacts in the market Now, tools like Luma Dream Machine, I mean, it’s incredible what they can achieve today. [00:17:11] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. We see it in, you know, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. That’s sort of the world of our business community, and you can very easily detect when someone is doing a post. [00:17:22] Vince Menzione: Or they’re writing an art, whatever they’re doing. Right. Some type of draft of something. Uh, and you can tell when it’s ai, I mean, it’s so easy to tell, and even people are generating reports and claiming that their research papers or studies or whatever they call them, uh, and it’s AI generated and it’s just the authenticity isn’t there. [00:17:39] Vince Menzione: The, the sense that this is real. That it can be trusted is not there. And I think trust is what we’re talking about here too, as well. [00:17:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, let’s go to authenticity ’cause that’s super important. Yeah. And I know a lot of your listeners, you come from the hyperscaler world of partnerships. You need to have that differentiated, better together story. [00:17:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. It’s really important to have an authentic voice in market. And I think about that also in terms of platforms and channels. We’re seeing a decrease in certain major social media platforms, and yet Substack spiked 48% in monthly active users last month. [00:18:15] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:18:16] fascinating. [00:18:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: Um, you know, and I think that one of the reasons is it’s viewed as a more authentic channel where you’re getting thought leadership from people that you’re, you know, genuinely interested in hearing their, their points of view. [00:18:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I think that’s really an important piece in here. [00:18:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah, you mentioned this yesterday and you had me thinking about it as well because we have used LinkedIn for everything internally, our newsletter, which has been around for six or seven years now. But that Substack is really, and I go to Substack too, to, if I really wanna dig in on a topic. [00:18:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:18:47] Vince Menzione: And there’s a particular author that I like their point of view, I’ll follow, I’ll follow them on Substack. [00:18:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, and this comes, maybe brings us around to who is the buyer and who is the audience, and who do we need to be thinking about when we’re designing sales and marketing programs. And really we’re, we’re shifting into the place of the Gen Z buyer by 20 30, 70 5% of buyers are gonna be Gen Z. [00:19:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna control 12 trillion in. Spend [00:19:16] Vince Menzione: by 2030. ’cause we, we’ve been, we’ve been saying that the millennial is the new buyer the last three years. I think Jay said it right here at this stage. [00:19:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:19:24] Vince Menzione: Um, so now it’s Gen Z. [00:19:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: And they’re buying online. Yeah, they’re buying in marketplaces. Yeah. So a stat recently was that roughly half of them made purchases on the social platforms of YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok in the last month. [00:19:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, that buyer behavior of being inside. Social type application and directly making a purchase. And I think in the B2B world, we need to take lessons from here and start thinking more front and center than we even have been around marketplaces. I mean, part of my reason for being in Silicon Valley this week was to celebrate a $12 million transaction that happened via Marketplace and two years ago that would’ve been a huge deal. [00:20:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Huge, [00:20:07] Vince Menzione: huge. [00:20:07] Ashleigh Vogstad: And, and it still is a really big deal, but these things are becoming. More and more common experiences. Very much so. We need to be there and in that conversation. [00:20:16] Vince Menzione: So how are you thinking about it? How are you directing your clients to behave or act around it? What are you, what are you doing exactly that we could take to this community perhaps and share with them. [00:20:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’ll bring it back to the authenticity piece because you need to have a product that delivers value first and foremost. There is, there is no substitution for that. Yeah, and what I would say is. One of my professors at Oxford, Eric Zow, he has this theory that I’m really digging into and finding very fascinating, which is that for the last several decades we’ve been in the attention economy, and that’s shifting to the trust economy. [00:20:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now the attention economy is about selling to human beings. Yeah. It’s about the, the business model is essentially that you need human being eyeballs on lists of recommendation links. Yeah. Whether that’s from Google or from, you know, searching, shopping on Amazon, you get this list of recommendation links and the economic engine that drives that business model is advertising. [00:21:19] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines, or in other words, agents who are making purchases, s on behalf on your behalf. And an agent isn’t going to be razzle dazzled by some inauthentic story. [00:21:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:21:44] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna be looking for third party validation on Exactly. You know, they need to be sure that they’re making the right decision. [00:21:51] Vince Menzione: They’re gonna look at surveys, they’re gonna look at customer comments. Like if I went through my Amazon site and I was looking to see what people said about the purchase or the product and specifically Exactly. [00:22:01] Vince Menzione: The agent’s gonna do this on my behalf, is what you’re saying. [00:22:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: This is what I’m saying. Yeah. And, and. I believe that to layer on top of, you know, Eric Z’s philosophy, I’ve been thinking about this in terms of the hyperscaler world, and I think that this is the time to lean into co-selling partnerships. [00:22:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, because being third party validated by somebody like AWS Microsoft and having all that co-sell data, what are your recent wins? Yes, that’s really high integrity, trusted data source for an agent to make a purchasing decision, and marketplaces are a key part of that. [00:22:35] Vince Menzione: So we’ll move from AI will take a, a more active role in the marketplace. [00:22:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: I definitely believe so. [00:22:42] Vince Menzione: Which makes total sense. I, you know, we’ve been doing this for nine or 10 years now, and when I was at Microsoft, we started co-selling. In fact, it was, uh, Aaron Feiger was up on stage yesterday talking about it. Right? January of 2016, co-selling began. [00:22:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:22:56] Vince Menzione: And there were only a few companies doing it. [00:22:59] Vince Menzione: Right. So she worked with one of the very first ones that were doing it. Uh, the challenge we have today is there are tens of thousands of partner organizations in the marketplace that are all trying to get the attention of the Microsoft sellers. Hmm. As, or the Google sellers or the AWS sellers and tell their story. [00:23:19] Vince Menzione: And a seller only has so many minutes in a day, they have a quota that they have to hit. These quotas are tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars of annual quota of cloud consumption. And I wanna sell my $50,000 widget, whatever it is. Yeah. Right. And I, I don’t understand why I’m not getting a callback. [00:23:38] Vince Menzione: And this, this is the dilemma we’ve faced because of, because of this, uh, scarcity of time and this over overwhelming of tech, you know. Tech, tech buyers trying to make this all happen, so now the AI can come in and help me solve for it as a seller, right? [00:23:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: The AI is definitely acting as an interface to make recommendations to field sellers in different organizations and. [00:24:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: To, to kind of take this on a, a tangent. Dupes. So a dupe. I know people of my generation, we’d think about this like a knockoff Right. You know, a knockoff handbag. [00:24:15] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:24:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes have exploded. [00:24:16] Vince Menzione: Fake. Fake Rolexes. [00:24:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Exactly. The fake Rolex for sure. And I think it was in December, P WC rolled out a survey. 81% of Gen Z were planning to purchase a dupe this holiday season. [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: That’s wild. [00:24:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes can be, you know, we gave luxury, good examples, but Louis [00:24:34] Vince Menzione: Vuitton and yeah. So, [00:24:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: but furniture, these sorts of things. And the important takeaway here for tech is the same principle will land, is that people are looking for value out of a product, not necessarily a name brand. AI is accelerating this whole process, and agents are gonna be looking at the same thing. [00:24:56] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re looking for that authenticity in terms of the actual product value. So, you know, beware there’s lots of disruption happening in the market right now with this dupe mentality, which is actually a cultural shift talking about I appreciate value over a superficial. Brand name. In some cases, there’s also a, a small contrary trend where certain luxury goods are rising because yes, things are never that simple. [00:25:22] Vince Menzione: So you work with a lot of these tech companies, a lot of SaaS companies, is we, we call them ISVs, we also call them, uh, software development companies. Now we keep changing these acronyms around. Uh, there’s been a lot of, uh, consternation in that segment, I would say, around ai. Right, because a lot of them are getting told that they’ll be outta business in a few years. [00:25:43] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. I think Satya Nadella famously said this last year that SAS will go away. Right? He’s predicting the demise. How do you help some of these organizations to differentiate? And there’s some of these are huge value organizations. We have have them in the room with us, ServiceNow and Veeam and Adobe. [00:26:01] Vince Menzione: Um, how do you help them achieve their results? ’cause that’s what you, you know, your organization is really helping these organizations to achieve their pinnacle as a partner. What do you, what do you say to them now and how do you help them through this time? [00:26:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’m on the side of the fence that I really can’t see an organization ripping out something like Salesforce, Adobe, ServiceNow. [00:26:24] Vince Menzione: Agreed. [00:26:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean that the amount of change management and. The extent to which these, these platforms are embedded, actually running and operating organizations. I personally, if, if we’re calling those companies, SaaS companies, I don’t agree that that layer is gonna go away. I mean, we’re seeing these organizations lean into AI in a huge way to borrow Microsofts. [00:26:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: Term, you know, they’re all becoming frontier firms. [00:26:54] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:26:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: So where I would go to, to answer that question, we do work with many, you know, organizations on that caliber, on things like their marketplace strategy on how to light up the fields of different hyperscalers. It really does come down to things like having a strong drumbeat with the Microsoft field, celebrating your win stories. [00:27:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Maybe that’s where I’ll land as Please do the marketer, because it sounds so simple, and I don’t know why we kind of continue to come back to this, but we’re talking about that third party validation and really, um, in order to have that, like what the hyperscalers want is you jointly celebrating success. [00:27:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: Here’s the kicker. Publicly. [00:27:38] Vince Menzione: Publicly, [00:27:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: you know, you need a customer story on your website, a press release that contains a quote from your customer. Ideally, also a quote from an executive at one of the hyperscalers. Like, actually lean in to live the value of your better together story. And when you do that, when you, when it comes around to partner of the year time, and we talk to you about, okay, what client stories are we gonna feature? [00:28:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: We’re even gonna know because when we Google you, we can see the public press of the joint wins that you’ve been celebrating. And I can tell you that that is a huge indicator on whether or not you’re well-placed to be in the 4% of partners who actually win Partner of the Year award’s. [00:28:20] Vince Menzione: Fascinating to me. [00:28:21] Vince Menzione: ’cause to me it would feel like table stakes maybe ’cause where we sit is ultimate partner and where this room sits with all the top partners that I just assume that everybody follows that. That, that guidance. [00:28:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:28:34] Vince Menzione: And so this is really impactful and I want to get here because I know you spent a lot of time here and we’ve talked about it before, but I think the partner of the year awards, when we first met many years ago, that was a you, you’ve expanded the business, but that’s still a core mission and and value that you bring to the community and to the partner ecosystem is helping them through this process. [00:28:55] Vince Menzione: So I know that that’s gonna be coming up soon, so I thought maybe we’d spend a couple moments on that. [00:29:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: Partner of the Year awards, regardless of which partner, I mean, Salesforce has their own awards there. There’s more and more award programs coming out, and they’re a great way to celebrate the incredible work that your organization has done. [00:29:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: Jay McBain is brilliant on this. He’ll talk a lot about the increase in valuation. Yeah. The, the increase in stock valuation or the likelihood that if you’re looking to be acquired, that you’re acquired within 12 months of a partner of the year win it. It’s really impressive. There is strong business value there. [00:29:33] Vince Menzione: He like, he likes, he likes to tell the story of that when the award is handed to them and they go back into the audience, that the private equity people are all over them right then and there and making offers. I mean, that’s the visual that you get [00:29:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: and it’s very powerful. Yeah. Very powerful. It’s very powerful and it, it can make it worthwhile to invest in the process, but don’t invest in the process if you haven’t been investing in the process for the 12 months. [00:29:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: Prior, [00:29:58] Vince Menzione: exactly. [00:29:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: The Microsoft field or you we’re talking about Microsoft Partner of the Year Awards. They need to know about your win that that needs to be top of mind for them. Yeah. How much Azure revenue is it driving? Was it a huge marketplace? Build sales and. You know, one of the questions I get asked a ton, everybody wants to know how do we get money out of the hyperscalers? [00:30:20] Ashleigh Vogstad: How do I get access to marketing development funds or all these different programs? Yeah. You know, at Microsoft, some of these programs are like EI and customer investment funds or Azure Accelerate, you know, and there’s millions and millions and millions of dollars in these, these buckets of funds, but. [00:30:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: An interesting point of view is that it’s actually a scorecard metric for many people at Microsoft who have partnership roles for you to be drawing down those funds. [00:30:45] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:30:45] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, your interests are actually aligned here, and so again, when it comes to Partner of the Year awards, how much money have you pulled down? [00:30:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: How much have you been an activating partner of key Microsoft programs that they’re pushing? What are you doing with marketplace rewards? How are you resing? Those into your business. These are the types of things that you really wanna be thinking about. Sitting it. You know, this time of year we probably will get the awards were likely be due in July. [00:31:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: They haven’t officially announced timelines, but you’ve got a few months to start moving these pieces into place. [00:31:18] Vince Menzione: And there are quite a few of them. And to your point, Nina, when she was up on stage here yesterday, there were at least 10 or 12 award. Uh. Funding categories that were on her, that were on her slide. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Her partner, her partner slide. So, [00:31:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: and what great looks like for a partner is that you understand your end-to-end funnel as it is mapped to Microsoft’s SEM model, the Microsoft customer Engagement model. Mm-hmm. The first stage there, inspire and design. That’s really the marketing space of lead generation. [00:31:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: So how are you generating leads with webinars, in-person, event activations, digital campaigns, and then at the very end, in the fifth column, you have the Microsoft outcomes that you’re driving. Yes. Whether that’s Azure consumed revenue, marketplace build sales, co-pilot, monthly active usage, these sorts of things. [00:32:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: And in each of those SEM swim lanes. There’s Microsoft funding associated to it. And that’s one of the things that Nina Harding was showing yesterday. When and where does it make sense to make requests for EA funds versus Azure accelerate the MCI funding? There’s different workshop proof of concept funding, and those all fall at specific stages in that EM model. [00:32:33] Vince Menzione: And what you’re also pointing out in this conversation is that the co the partners need to understand that mm, they need to understand MM. We talked about it years ago. I’ve had, haven’t had anybody on stage recently talk about m You could probably take us through that if we wanted to devote some time here, uh, and then understand all of those categories and how to access those funds. [00:32:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, it’s critical and. The number one place we point partners, if you want a quick overview of what that looks like is to Microsoft’s FY 26 solution playbooks. Nice. They’re available on the web for download. There’s, well, there used to be three, but they’ve added a few agen being, being one. So, so there’s a handful of, they had [00:33:11] Vince Menzione: simplified it, now they’re, now they’re expanding it back again. [00:33:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, exactly. I think there’s now a breakout for security as well. Yes. So take a look at those playbooks. It will map programs and incentives very specifically to each solution area and to each sales play that are gonna be available to you. And then we’re always happy to guide people through the details [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: as well. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: I love that. I love that. And reach out to the. Ashley is just amazing at this process. I’ve, I’ve watched her for years now, work with some of the top, what have become the pinnacle partners of Microsoft and with the award season coming up. So we wanna make sure we have a plug there. But I also wanna talk about like, podcasts with you. [00:33:50] Vince Menzione: Um, you’ve been on this podcast multiple times, been in the studio before doing this, and I understand you have your own podcast now. So tell us about that. [00:33:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, Vince, I just wanna say. As a friend and a mentor. You’ve been so inspiring. Thank you. And I think from years ago when we met, there was this seed in my brain of, you know, I, I should really get out there. [00:34:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you talk a lot about growth mindset and fear setting is, is one of Tim Ferriss’s terms? Yes. And models. [00:34:21] Vince Menzione: I love Tim Ferris. I’ve been, been a fan of his for 10 years now. So that’s settled. We all got started with this. Sorry. Sorry, I [00:34:26] Ashleigh Vogstad: interrupt. No, no, not at all. [00:34:27] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:34:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And. I think it’s just been, it’s been back there. [00:34:31] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. That I’m really passionate around having voice is how I think about it. And as a marketing agency, we’re really amplifying the voice, um, or helping companies to find their voice, particularly in hyperscaler partnerships. And what better way to assist, you know, authentically the amazing people in our network, in our community and our clients than with our own channel where we can celebrate their stories and success? [00:35:00] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: So the podcast is called Transcending Tech. It’s about [00:35:06] Vince Menzione: very cool transcending tech. Just so you don’t [00:35:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: transcending tech. [00:35:08] Vince Menzione: It’s out there now. [00:35:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: It, we just released our first episode. Okay. I think two days ago. [00:35:13] Vince Menzione: So by the time we’re live, yes. We’ll, we’ll be able to access it. Good. [00:35:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: You will be able to access it. [00:35:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: The first episode is with Alyssa Fit. Patrick from Elastic. [00:35:21] Vince Menzione: Oh my goodness. [00:35:22] Ashleigh Vogstad: And the concept of the podcast, it’s long form and it’s really about getting to the people behind the platforms. [00:35:29] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:29] Ashleigh Vogstad: And to the stories that transcend technology. So we’re here to get to know the human beings behind. Agents. [00:35:38] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:35:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: And taking the time to, to go in deep and really explore that. [00:35:43] Vince Menzione: So I am excited to see all the developments here with the, with the podcast. And you’re gonna be joining us again. You were just here, you in Boca. But you’ll be joining us again in Bellevue. Not too far a little bit. Closer ride or travel, uh, for you to come to Bellevue. [00:35:57] Vince Menzione: We’re gonna be hosting the first ultimate partner live, which is our larger events in this beautiful facility, this new Intercontinental hotel, which is fabulous. And, uh, you’re gonna be taking a more active role. Your leadership around AI is. Palpable and we’re gonna love to have you on stage and talking through some of the changes. [00:36:17] Vince Menzione: I, I suspect by the time we get to Bellevue we’ll have a lot more to talk about. That hasn’t even happened yet. [00:36:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, I’m really excited. I’ll have been through my next cohort at at Oxford, kind of coming out hot from there back to the Pacific Northwest, and really excited to just share the learnings and Awesome. [00:36:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: Genuinely. It’s also helping me in my own research, really formulate particularly around the role of ag agentic AI in hyperscaler partnerships. [00:36:43] Vince Menzione: That’s so cool. And then what I’ll say is this, and I don’t know, we on the space perspective, and I’ll, the team will probably hang me for this because we haven’t done it yet, but if you wanna bring the podcast along with you, there might be, we’ll see if we can find an extra room for you to set up. [00:36:58] Vince Menzione: If you wanna do some interviews while you’re. In, at the event. So [00:37:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: you’re so generous, Vince. [00:37:03] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:37:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: amazing. [00:37:04] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Again, I can’t say for certainty yet, but, uh, let’s see, let’s see what happens with that. So, uh, let, let’s, uh, you know, I always, we, we have known each other for years and I just assume everybody knows this amazing Ashley sda. [00:37:19] Vince Menzione: But, um, we always, I like to ask this question because it helps us kind of dig in a little bit about you personally. And it’s my favorite question. I ask all my guests this question now, and it’s, um, you’re hosting a dinner party, Ashley, you are, pick a pace, place, you wanna have this dinner. We could talk about parts of the world. [00:37:36] Vince Menzione: You’ve traveled all extensively. Uh, and you can invite any three people, guests from the present. Or the past to this amazing dinner party you’re throwing. Whom would you invite and why? [00:37:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s a beautiful question, Vince and. Instantly I go to a place in terms of the location, since you asked that part, which was surprising. [00:38:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: I, I like that is my home. I, I love where I live up in Whistler, Canada and [00:38:08] Vince Menzione: I hear it’s beautiful. I haven’t been yet, [00:38:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: it’s so gorgeous and it’s, it’s my own sanctuary. You know, I live on a plane 75% of the time and coming back to that place is really grounding for me. Yes. So, so I would love to have it at, at my home and to invite. [00:38:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: Pippa Malrin would be one. She, Pippa [00:38:26] Vince Menzione: Malrin. [00:38:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. She’s sure. I get an advisor to the White House for many administrations. Okay. She’s an economist and she just has really interesting perspective on geopolitics. Uh, I follow her on Substack ’cause she’s a big substack. Okay, now [00:38:41] Vince Menzione: I need to look. This is awesome. [00:38:42] Vince Menzione: The [00:38:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: mal, she’s fantastic. I would say Dr. Lisa Sue, the CEO, Dr. Lisa of a md. [00:38:49] Vince Menzione: Okay. Yes, yes. I know a little bit about her. [00:38:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: So she was one of Time Mag, I think she was the only woman in Time Magazine’s, group of people of the year, which was basically this AI cohort in including, you know, the Elon Musks of the world. [00:39:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it’s just so impressive what she’s doing with leadership in a MD. I don’t think it’s as public as. Anybody else who is on the cover of that magazine, but it’s incredibly powerful. [00:39:14] Vince Menzione: Yeah, they’ve made a com uh, turnaround’s probably not the right word, but it seems like they’ve made a tremendous, uh, gains turnaround probably in the last few years. [00:39:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: I would say that many would say turnaround. And then lastly is Dr. Fefe Lee, who. For those in the AI space, particularly AI research space. I mean, she’s arguably number one. Um, she’s leading at Stanford currently. [00:39:37] Vince Menzione: Wow. This is gonna be a heady conversation, but you know, I love conversations. So if you don’t mind, maybe I’ll bring dessert and come, come in for a few moments, maybe do some podcast interviews there. [00:39:48] Vince Menzione: How’s that? [00:39:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: That sounds absolutely perfect, Vince, [00:39:50] Vince Menzione: so, so good. So good to have you here today. So great. Good to have you in the studio again, and, uh, excited for transcends and all the great work you’re doing. Um. This time with ai. I think you, uh, we talked about this a little bit last night. I think you’ve made some really wise, personal and professional decisions about how to lead and how to take this forward and not kind of rest on your laurels, which you see so many organizations do People fear change [00:40:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: Hmm. [00:40:18] Vince Menzione: And you embrace it, which is just, it’s astounding to me that you do that and, um. I look forward to working with you in the future and for years and years to come. So I will ask you one more question though, because we are still at the precipice of these tectonic shifts and we’re still early in 2026. And so for our listeners and our viewers today, what would be the one thing you would tell them that they need to go do now that possibly they haven’t done yet as they prepare for 2026 and beyond? [00:40:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: The generic phrase would be, be curious, but if we want an action, it would be go build an agent. [00:40:59] Vince Menzione: Go build an agent [00:41:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: if, if you haven’t already. Yeah. And, and I’m, yeah. Speaking hopefully to like a business audience, you know, to, to anyone. Yeah. Really, um, find something that is interesting that you’re passionate about. [00:41:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: A, a use case that it doesn’t have to be some big thing. It could be quite mundane, but just something that’s gonna help you in your role. It’s, you know, what is creativity is an interesting question, and I can tell you that sitting down and hands-on keys and actually creating something is, is a beautiful, powerful experience. [00:41:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Awesome. All right. We’re all gonna go create agents this weekend, so thank you for listening. Thank you for viewing the Ultimate Guide to partnering on our YouTube channel, ultimate Partner, and on each end of your platforms at the Ultimate Guide to partnering. Thank you for being with us and supporting us all these years. [00:41:50] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.

Review các phim ra rạp từ ngày 27/02/2026CẢM ƠN NGƯỜI ĐÃ THỨC CÙNG TÔI - KĐạo diễn: Chung Chí CôngDiễn viên: Võ Phan Kim Khánh, Trần Doãn Hoàng, Nguyễn HùngThể loại: Gia đình, Tình cảmCảm Ơn Người Đã Thức Cùng Tôi là một hành trình cảm xúc của những người trẻ đi tìm đáp án cho câu hỏi “Ước mơ của bạn là gì?”, để rồi chính họ khi bước vào thế giới trưởng thành dần nhận ra câu hỏi quan trọng nhất là “Mình muốn thực hiện ước mơ đó cùng ai?”NHÀ MÌNH ĐI THÔI - KĐạo diễn: Trần Đình HiềnDiễn viên: Uyển Ân, Đoàn Thế Vinh, Michelle Lai, NSND Hồng Vân, NSND Kim Xuân, NS Hoàng Sơn, NSƯT Hữu Châu, NSƯT Ngọc Quỳnh,…Thể loại: Gia đình, HàiPhương - chủ Startup trẻ đầy tham vọng, buộc phải thực hiện một chuyến du lịch tuyệt hảo giả tạo cho gia đình bất ổn của mình, để giành lấy khoản đầu tư cho dự án khởi nghiệp. Liệu cô có thể chinh phục thử thách, hàn gắn tình cảm gia đình và nắm bắt cơ hội thành công? ĐỒI GIÓ HÚ – T18Đạo diễn: Emerald FennellDiễn viên: Margot Robbie, Jacob Elordi, Hong Chau, Shazad Latif, Alison Oliver, Martin Clunes, Ewan Mitchell,...Thể loại: Tâm Lý, Tình cảmMột chuyện tình say đắm và đầy giông bão, diễn ra giữa khung cảnh hoang dã của vùng đồng hoang Yorkshire, khắc họa mối quan hệ mãnh liệt nhưng đầy hủy diệt giữa Heathcliff và Catherine Earnshaw.CHUYỆN KINH DỊ GIỚI SIÊU GIÀU – T18Đạo diễn: Kimo StamboelDiễn viên: Rio Dewanto, Marthino Lio, Nyimas Ratu RafaThể loại: Kinh DịSabdo và Intan sống một cuộc sống giản dị, hạnh phúc, nhưng tất cả đã bị phá hủy khi ngôi nhà thừa kế của cha mẹ họ bị cháy rụi.KHỦNG LONG ĐÓN TẾTĐạo diễn: Sam WilsonDiễn viên: David Menkin, Ina Marie Smith, Ed Kear as Fneep, Rob Van Vuuren,...Thể loại: Gia đình, Hoạt Hình, Phiêu LưuKHỦNG LONG ĐÓN TẾT Chuyến du hí “xuyên không” mở bát năm mới! Chỉ vì lạc vào một cánh cổng thời gian bị bỏ quên, nhóm bạn động vật rừng châu Phi bỗng dưng trở về tận thời tiền sử. Muốn về lại hiện tại, họ không còn cách nào khác là buộc phải hợp tác với những chú khủng long thời tiền sử đồ sộ và cùng nhau đối phó với băng nhóm người ngoài hành tinh lầy lội. Đó là hành trình đầy ắp tiếng cười, những pha rượt đuổi ngộ nghĩnh và hơn hết là tình bạn ấm áp vượt qua mọi khoảng cách thời gian. Khủng Long Đón Tết mang đến không khí giao thời rộn ràng với hình ảnh rực rỡ, nhân vật đáng yêu và câu chuyện vừa vui nhộn chạm đến trái tim khán giả ở bất kì độ tuổi nào. Mùng 1 Tết ra rạp, cùng nhau cười thật to và mở màn năm mới thật “xôm” nhé!--------------------------------------------#8saigon #reviewphimrap #camonnguoidathuccungtoi #nhaminhdithoi #doigiohu #chuyenkinhdigioisieugiau

C'est pas toujours facile de voir ce qu'on fait bien.Souvent, on remarque surtout ce qu'on n'a pas fait, ou mal fait.Alors dans cette MM, je te propose un truc simple :On fait une pause.Et on liste, toi et moi, nos petites victoires du moment.Moi, je te raconte en 7 minutes les miennes : podcast, LinkedIn, Duolingo…À toi de jouer maintenant : envoie-moi un MP pour me partager tes derniers accomplissements.Je les relayerai dans la newsletter Les Notes de la Cohorte!(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Mm, smell that? We're cooking up a storm in the etymology kitchen, and PIE (Proto-Indo European!) is on the menu! We're also serving a Hiram roast and piping hot internet takes, so come hungry and bring a Tupperware— we made a LOT!Find us on instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/gettingdownandwordy/And email us at gettingdownandwordy@gmail.comHuge thanks to Patsy Walker for the use of our theme song “Who's Wordy Now”!This week's promoted podcast is Thick Thighs & Creepy Vibes. Find them anywhere you get podcasts or at this link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thick-thighs-and-creepy-vibes/id1736179086Find them, us, and lots of other great podcasts on our podcast network podmoth.network

Learner is the ability and commitment to continuously seek new knowledge, skills, and perspectives—and to apply them to improve oneself, one's team, and organizational outcomes.             "Once you stop learning, you start dying" Albert Einstein   Heather Bayer is a trainer, consultant, and long-time champion of helping businesses grow in ways that feel both sustainable and human. With more than three decades of experience across hospitality, customer service, leadership development, and short-term rental management, she's known for turning complex ideas into practical, approachable strategies teams can actually use. Today, Heather helps organizations thoughtfully integrate AI—not as a shiny add-on, but as a tool that supports people, strengthens systems, and creates breathing room for teams to do their best work. Working closely with leadership teams, she cuts through the noise around AI, designs realistic workflows, and builds the confidence needed for adoption to truly stick. Known for her warm, story-driven teaching style, Heather meets teams exactly where they are, helping organizations build smarter processes, stronger cultures, and environments where people and technology work beautifully together.   Favorite snack is trail mix with big M&M's   Heather Bayer Vacation Rental Success podcast LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Music-"Homesick" Copyright 2018. Written by Shireen Amini. Produced by Shireen Amini and Mike Davidson of Plaid Dog Recording (Boston, MA).

In Episode 8 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider break down Super Bowl fallout, the early NFL offseason, and one of the most honest quarterback conversations you'll hear all year. The episode opens with a Super Bowl recap — why the game felt flat, what Seattle did better, and why one loss doesn't erase a strong Patriots season. The conversation dives into Drake Maye's late-season play, experience vs. expectations, and why defensive performances often get ignored when offenses struggle. From there, M|M and Tom shift to NFL offseason chaos: franchise tags, massive cap hits, and how teams actually recover from quarterback contract mistakes. The heart of the episode is a deep discussion on QB “retreads” — evaluating players like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Justin Fields, and more through the lens of opportunity, coaching, and pressure rather than media narratives. The episode closes with thoughts on the NBA All-Star Game, why competitiveness finally returned, and what the dunk contest is missing without real stars. Real debate. Real context. No hot takes.

農曆年假結束，M平方再次祝大家新年快樂，馬年開工大吉、馬尼多多！ 本週美股延續年假期間的行情，科技股反彈但是軟體股還是處於很辛苦的狀態，當然還有川普的關稅違法的雜音以及美伊僵持的局勢等等的事情仍然在進行中。而台股在經歷年假的休息後，本週開紅盤創下歷史新高，站上 35000點，台積電突破了 2000 元大關！ 本集就邀請台灣研究員 Jat 與美國研究員 Ralice 來聊聊，開紅盤後，台灣跟美國兩邊的情況！

Frazer Rice and Bram Weinstein, the “Voice of the Washington Commanders,” discuss the shift in sports media for entrepreneurs. The current state of sports journalism is in flux, especially with the decline of the Washington Post’s sports section and its implications for local coverage. We explore the opportunities that come from this void. (Including the potential for new media ventures and the challenges of monetizing content in a fractured media landscape). The discussion also touches on the future of the Washington Commanders, the importance of audience engagement, and the evolving nature of podcasting and digital media. https://youtu.be/O0syDGcSkvU https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Ut9QRj7X9QD1pGEA6y6qt?si=39nLO2reQ8SK_nj0zenzDA Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠) Takeaways The Washington Post’s sports section closure is seen as a significant loss. There is a growing opportunity for new media companies to fill the coverage void. Monetizing media ventures requires innovative strategies and diverse revenue streams. Podcasters face challenges in gaining audience traction and monetization. The Commanders’ future depends on effective roster changes and health improvements. Engagement with the audience is crucial for media success. Digital platforms like YouTube provide exposure but limited revenue. The media landscape is rapidly changing, requiring adaptability. Local sports coverage is essential for community engagement. The importance of maintaining journalistic integrity in a changing media environment. SPORTS MEDIA FOR ENTREPRENEURS CHAPTERS 00:00 The State of Sports Journalism 02:59 Opportunities in Media 06:07 Monetizing Media Ventures 09:05 Navigating Podcasting Challenges 11:59 The Future of the Commanders 15:06 Engaging with the Audience DISCOVERING BRAM, THE COMMANDERS, AND AMPIRE MEDIA BRAM on SPOTIFY AMPIRE MEDIA ON YOUTUBE AMPIRE MEDIA WEBSITE Transcript of “SPORTS MEDIA FOR ENTREPRENEURS” Frazer Rice (00:00.686)Welcome aboard, Bram. Bram N Weinstein (00:02.551)Hey, Frazer, how are you? Frazer Rice (00:03.736)Doing great. The last time we spoke it was about three days before the Chicago Hail Mary, so I’m viewing that as good luck. That must have been something having to call that game. Bram N Weinstein (00:14.071)That was part of the most magical season I’ve ever been a part of. Not only first ever for the franchise, but 12 and five, NFC championship game, hadn’t done that in a generation. It was pretty incredible, yeah. Frazer Rice (00:28.652)No, as a skins fan, now commander’s fan, it’s been a long time, but it was a wild ride. One of the things that’s happened recently, which I know strikes near and dear to your heart, and frankly, for people who grew up sort of following it, has been, I guess, kind of the evisceration of the Washington Post sports section. And it’s got all sorts of impacts. But from your perspective, How do you make sense of that and what does it look like going forward for a city essentially that has all the major sports and the major paper not really covering it? Bram N Weinstein (01:09.719)I don’t make sense of it. I don’t understand it. I think at its core, The Washington Post is two things. It’s one of the most important publications in the world as the paper of record in the most powerful city in the world and the democratic center of the world. But it also is a local newspaper for one of the top 10 markets, top five markets in the country. And the idea that it would not cover its sports teams, or Metro desk, which, I know, you know, for our purposes, we focused a lot on the sports desk being shuttered. The Metro desk is too. So the Washington Post not covering the mayor’s office, city council meetings like in especially in these political times where, you know, the district budget is held by the federal government. To me, it doesn’t even it doesn’t compute that that wouldn’t exist. as far as like the sports section goes, which I think is like the lesser of the two real problems with this, but obviously is a real problem is, you I think for me, it feels like a death. I grew up reading the Washington Post. A lot of the reasons why I wanted to do what I wanted to do was through osmosis of reading Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon and Tom Boswell and all of the great writers that came through the Washington Post. And I just don’t really understand how it’s not within the business model to be part of this. At the same time, you know, it does open opportunities for entrepreneurs like myself who have media companies and are always looking for new talent and always looking for openings. And I can tell you that void is going to get filled. But I do think it is sad that the Washington Post could not figure out a way to modernize itself to allow its coverage to continue for its loyal readership. This is a local paper that isn’t covering local news. That is astoundingly terrible in terms of a business practice to me. Frazer Rice (03:14.317)It’s weird because from my perch here in New York, I work across the street from the New York Times building and there’s a little bit of sort of guffawing that the New York Times has turned into a gaming company and sort of a media company second, which has helped to subsidize its continued commitment to long form journalism. But even then, I mean, it’s really focusing on arts and leisure and cookbooks and wordel and all sorts of things like that. And it’s a shame that the Washington Post either couldn’t pivot in that direction or otherwise make sense of things. Bram N Weinstein (03:48.727)Is the business model of media the same that was no. so there are a few things that play here to be fair. I’m not asking Jeff Bezos to lose money. You know, like, or just be the beneficiary to subsidize something, but you do bring up a point, which is. And I read this quote recently from, the old ownership group, the Graham family, who basically said. “You know, the newspaper is a grocery store. Like you are supposed to go in there and pick all the different things that you want. And hopefully there’s something for everybody or hopefully a number of things for everybody. And in modern times, the New York Times has done a very good job of putting together a new modern grocery store for people. So there’s a variety of different things that does subsidize the important work that it does. And in the end, like to me, the New York Times and the Washington Post and maybe the Wall Street Journal. Are the three most important newspaper entities, if you can call them that, in the United States of America. And for one of them to not understand their role in protecting democracy, in covering our world, in informing the readership, whether it’s locally or nationally, to me is an absconding responsibility. So I don’t know what the answer is. Again, I’m not like demanding Jeff Bezos just…money to keep things subsidized. Like it is a business and I understand that, but there must have been better ways to go about it or maybe, you know, sell it to someone who does have ideas because it’s important for its foundations to remain intact. And so I just, you know, for me, it’s, been hard to digest, honestly. And like to your original question of like, like, how do you make sense of it? I really don’t. I don’t make any sense of it. Frazer Rice (05:39.692)Well, you also now have a fledgling media company and I’m a devourer of yours and Kim’s and Standix podcasts and I learned something from it each time. I see an opportunity there if major component of the media establishment in the area is abdicating its role, not only to the major sports that aren’t getting covered as much. There’s an opportunity there. But even like the local hotbed sports like lacrosse, they’re completely ignored, I would imagine. And that might be a way to sort of get some grassroots component going. Bram N Weinstein (06:17.195)Yeah, we also here with my company Empire see the opportunity, unfortunately, but we do. And there’s a lot of talent that is available. There is a void in coverage. We know, you know, the size of our community, the appetite for sports. And so, you know, I don’t want to say too much, but we are actively seeking partners to expand in a pretty large way if possible. So Frazer Rice (06:24.045)Right. Bram N Weinstein (06:46.067)We’re working towards that and I’ve been working towards that and moving very fast in the hopes that we’re not the only ones thinking this like you. There’s a lot of people thinking there’s an opportunity here. I wish it wasn’t the opportunity that it is, but it has presented itself and it’s an opportunity that we intend to see through. So we are actively speaking to a number of different interested parties about funding a major expansion of what we’re doing. Frazer Rice (07:11.379)Really cool. Well, I’ll be sure to keep an eye on that as it develops. When you’re thinking about sort of the money making aspect of it, we don’t do things for free and it’d be lovely if we all had time and disposable income to do that without giving away the playbook because you’re raising money and you don’t want to give that up necessarily. But how do you think about that in terms of delivering value for sponsors or advertisers or the general audience? Have you made any…sort of commitment strategy-wise there. Bram N Weinstein (07:42.197)Yes, digital audio video forward. You know, I also believe in enterprise journalism. I also very much believe in long form journalism, but the audience appetite for it is limited. And so you do have to subsidize it. And that comes in the form of a number of different properties repurposed for different platforms in various ways, podcasts, video shows, YouTube. All offer opportunities to monetize the same content. I have been studying very closely the things the New York Times has done and thought about what kind of engagement tools would be necessary to be an added perk for those who would end up probably subscribing to a situation like this. So there are a lot of different types of financial models. One is subscriptions. in a variety of different ways, whether it’s premium content, newsletters, one of them is obviously advertising, which would come with YouTube or different streaming channel, streaming network, podcasts, obviously, sponsorship, which could go across the board for all of the different categories. And, lastly, live events. And this is something that we are very capable of doing as well. So there are a tremendous amount of different models to make money. None of them are easy. And because the audiences are so fractured, I think you have to find ways to make financial streams in the same content in various different forms. But we’re willing to do that. And we’ve already kind of done that with what I’ve done with Empire on a very limited role, which is why we think we’re ready to make this expansion and move. But we need an investor to buy in and to the investors, I would say to them, we intend to make you money and we intend to be something that could be purchased in a three to five to 10 year plan. So we understand the importance of making sure that the investment is paid off in the end as well. Frazer Rice (09:52.205)Cool. Are you thinking about expanding into other subject matter areas? you’re in DC, so politics, guess, would be a natural fit. Right. Bram N Weinstein (09:59.965)Not really. And I wouldn’t personally, like, I just don’t feel like that’s my expertise. So no, but like, could we be something like the ringer where you’re looking into culture, you’re looking into arts, music, dining, those types of things? Yeah, I think like that’s something I’m not sure that I would move fast into a realm like that. Like we see the void in sports coverage for this marketplace. We would like to fill that void. And whatever we do after that would be dabbling in those spaces to try to, again, find new ways to find new audiences. But we want to go with our core products first. And certainly for me personally, the politics world is completely above my pay grade. So I’m out of that. Yeah. Frazer Rice (10:46.028)It’s above everybody’s I think if anybody could figure it out It’s it’s one of those Rubik’s cubes that it’s not worth solving oftentimes So, you know one of the things I don’t know if I’d struggle with or I’m Would like to expand on my front is just getting my podcast out to more people and the concept of discover ability and one of the strengths that I think you have Is you know your current position in traditional media with the commanders? Keim has it a little bit with ESPN, Ben Stendig has it with his Substack, which isn’t traditional media, but there’s different outflows on that front. How do you view that competitive advantage in terms of getting the message out and almost having a bit of a head start over some of the other possibilities out there? Bram N Weinstein (11:30.175)Yeah, well, I think there was always like, you know, for the podcast world. Yes, anybody can do a show and you know, they could be good. The reality is, though, you know, the people who already have stakes in the marketplace, at least from name value, are always going to have a head start. It’s going to come down to how you market yourself and how you go about getting your show out there as much as possible. The reality is you need some level of a robust social presence to get to as many eyeballs or ears as possible. And if you don’t, then you typically have to kind of go down a paid route of making sure that it gets into algorithms. And so it’s a hard climb, like for sure. You know, like when podcasts and kind of open the gates for everybody, same thing with YouTube, like Frazer Rice (12:14.54)Mm. Bram N Weinstein (12:23.444)You know, there’s going to be a lot of success stories. There’s going to be a lot more people who are either doing it for love of the game, but not for money. And that’s just the reality of how much time any person has to give up to content. And secondarily, who can get to enough of an audience to make it worthwhile? As you probably know, you need thousands of downloads to really make any kind of real money at all on a podcast episode. Getting to thousands of downloads. doesn’t sound like a big, like if I said, you have to get to a thousand, like a thousand doesn’t sound like a lot for one episode, but it’s way harder to do. wager a guess that 90 % of podcasts do not reach 1000 downloads per episode. So it’s a very hard number to reach. And if you really want to make money, money on it, we’re talking about getting 10,000 an episode. Sure, anybody like myself that has various different platforms I can use to promote my own shows has a head start in that manner. And that would always have been for anybody in traditional media who had a following to start with, if they were willing to jump into the digital side quickly, they were always going to have a head start because they already had an audience that was built in. It was just converting them. Frazer Rice (13:39.572)You know, and for me, the conversion isn’t so much, you know, buying pillows or mattresses from the advertising that comes on the show. I don’t have any advertisers. The ROI for me is, in a client, one client, maybe listening to it and then calling up. And all of a sudden that pays for everything, in sort of my day job. Bram N Weinstein (13:52.992)Yes. Bram N Weinstein (13:57.813)Yeah, well, I think you’re actually looking at it the right way. Like, could your show end up having a big audience? Yeah, of course it could. But like, the reality is for most people who are doing podcasts for the other purpose, which is either marketing, client curation, branding, like those have extraordinary value to like my company’s done a lot of B2B type podcasts. And I explained this, you know, to them, and most of the people I work with aren’t looking, they don’t think they’re going to be Pat McAfee. But like, they understand that like, The value in doing this well is going to get paid back exponentially in client curation, marketing, entering new market spaces, expanding business opportunity, because it done well, it can really have that kind of benefit for you. Frazer Rice (14:43.563)How do you make sense of all the different platforms that are out there? You know, I converted to video because ignoring YouTube meant basically ignoring Google and I was like, well, that’s dumb. I know, Spotify’s out there. iTunes has just converted to video. And then you’ve got all the different podcasts, platforms, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How do you, it just seems like it changes weekly in many ways as to what’s in favor, what’s not. When you’re making a bet on your company, how do you deal with that? Bram N Weinstein (15:06.996)Yeah. Yeah, think. Yeah, it’s hard. Things have changed a lot. Like, for the most part, we double up our podcasts now and they’re taped on video. So they’re disseminated with not a tremendous amount of production value behind them. And of course, you know, used as audio podcasts as well. So it’s a two in one situation. And we find that YouTube. The advertising dollars there are very small, but the exposure, not unlike when we were talking about kind of marketing yourself, the exposure of being there, if you can get thousands of views, often offers up a lot of different opportunities. Sponsors prefer to be visually seen than just audibly heard. So like in both of those cases, they can be beneficial. like we don’t frankly make a lot of like we have on YouTube. We only have two primary shows with Empire Media that are on YouTube on our channel. We have about 18,000 subscribers now and we get on an average month like 127,000 views between just the two shows, which is a lot, know, especially for like a niche thing where we’re really just talking about one thing, the commander. So we’re like, we’re not expanding out much more than that. So it’s a very niche thing and yet we’re getting a really, really sizable number. Frazer Rice (16:11.787)That’s good. Bram N Weinstein (16:25.15)If I told you how much money we get paid for that, you’d laugh like it’s it’s pennies on the dollar. But the exposure of having it and the amount of views and impressions that it generates gets us sponsorship opportunities because people want to be part of that. And that’s where the real opportunity comes with YouTube. As far as like using Facebook Live, IG, like TikTok, I suppose. Like. I don’t know, like I don’t think you can be everywhere. I think the idea is to try to be, I think you’re talking to different audiences on each of these things. So I don’t think it’s one size fits all. And it has to be worth it. For me, it has to be worthwhile. Like, is there a reason why we’re there other than we’re just trying to get people but if there’s no benefit of a carryover beyond it and it just happens to hit their feed, but we’re not getting any sponsorship money out of it or any activation out of it? Well, then what was the point? So I’m always looking for right places to be. But there has to be an incentive structure that makes sense, either true carryover audience growth or obvious sponsorship opportunity. Frazer Rice (17:32.076)The cost of coordination of all of that too starts to overwhelm. I know you’ve got a schedule to keep here. I would be silly not to ask about my commanders a little bit. Two new assistant coaches, offensive and defensive coordinator, lots of changes coming in terms of personnel and hopefully sort of a rethink of Jaden and hopefully a lot better health going into next year. But… Bram N Weinstein (17:36.17)Yes. Yeah. Frazer Rice (17:59.84)Potentially better division in many ways, how do you see things going forward? Bram N Weinstein (18:04.71)I don’t know what their team looks like yet. So this is like a hard question to answer because I think they’re going to be very aggressive in free agency and then obviously they have the seventh overall pick. I kind of need to see what their roster looks like before knowing. I you know, David Blough been here the last couple of years. He is one of these very young, very impressive people. I’m glad they kept him in the building. It’s a big ask to jump from where he was to go to offensive He at least is talking a big game like he’s ready for this and I hope he is, you know, like we’ll have to see. I think a lot of it will have to do with the quarterback stays healthy and that just didn’t happen a year ago and the whole team didn’t stay healthy. So they fell apart and you know, like I don’t think health was the only reason they had the record they had, but I think the health made it worse than it could have been like their record probably would have been a little more respectable if the health wasn’t as bad as it was. Hopefully Jayden stays healthy. He’s fine now. So hopefully he stays healthy and on defense Deonte Jones. This is his first opportunity doing this but he’s actually been in the league for 20 years and he’s worked with every almost every major defensive coordinator up until this point So he feels like someone that’s been overdue for an opportunity. I like the system He’s coming out of does he have the personnel to win with I don’t think right now and that’s why I’m like Let me see what they do in free agency. How much money do they spend at what positions? How are they looking to upgrade that side of the ball? And if they bring in what I think will be two, three, four new starters, whether it’s via the draft and free agency combined, then I think we could have a different conversation about what I think it’s gonna look like, because I kinda need to see what the roster looks like first. Frazer Rice (19:44.691)No, there’s so many holes in the free agency component. Not to pin you down on a record going into next year, because we don’t even know what the components are going to be. To that end, as you said, the injuries were a real problem. Everything that possibly could go right in 2024 didn’t in 2025. How does that work over the course of time in terms of regression to the mean? Is just every season completely different or is there something that carries over? Bram N Weinstein (20:19.542)So 2023 was nothing like 2024, which was nothing like 2025. So we’ve had a roller coaster for sure. Um I last year was a surprise like. If you had told me the beginning of the season look like the schedules too hard. They had too many injuries. They went 9889 didn’t make the playoffs. I would have believed you. You know, like it’s just things were just harder to try to replicate. I didn’t expect what ended up. So can they flip that back around and be more competitive again? I do believe so. I also agree with something you said, which was. Right now and again don’t know what the teams look like exactly yet, but I do think the division on the whole will be better. The Giants will be better coached for sure. They have a lot of defensive talent and we’ll see if Jaxson Dart takes another step. And if that’s the case, the Giants may be more formidable than they’ve been in 10 years. The Eagles are still going to have a very, good roster. No matter Frazer Rice (21:04.938)Mm-hmm. Bram N Weinstein (21:16.106)Whatever they do this off season, even if it includes moving off of a couple of primary people, they still have an extremely strong high level roster. And I like how the Cowboys pivoted from Micah Parsons. I know it hurt them last year, but I do like what they did in the return that they got since. So they play their cards right. They could be in line to really make a jump back this year. Like they’re the ones that feel kind of ready to me. If they play their cards right and if they don’t end up, which is the second part, which is never they avoid, they never avoid this. They turn themselves into a circus. So if they could ever stop turning themselves into a circus, I think it would serve them. You know, I think it would be a very positive outcome for them, but their owner doesn’t live in that world. He likes to be a ringmaster. And, you know, I think that that’s probably more than anything been the hindrance to them winning a Super Bowl over the last. Frazer Rice (21:55.004)You Bram N Weinstein (22:14.422)30 years, they’ve had good enough teams to do it. They just don’t and I think they get in their own way. But you know, maybe this year’s a little different for them. Frazer Rice (22:21.364)No question. Alright, how do people find Ampire and sample all the different media that you’re putting out there? Bram N Weinstein (22:31.766)YouTube is Empire Media AMPIRE. We have our YouTube page. You can find that there. My show is under my name, Bram Weisside Show. John Keim Report covers the commanders and Last Man Standing is Ben Standing’s show. And who knows, maybe in four to six months, we’ve got some new offerings. I’m hoping that’s gonna be the case pretty soon. Frazer Rice (22:51.466)Terrific. Thanks for coming on, Bram, and rootin’ for your success. Bram N Weinstein (22:55.414)Thanks a lot. Take care BRAM on “WEALTH ACTUALLY” three days before the JAYDEN HAIL MARY Keywords: sports journalism, Washington Post, media opportunities, podcasting, Commanders, monetization, audience engagement, digital media, sports coverage, media landscape Titles The Decline of Sports Journalism Seizing Media Opportunities https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] was Luther King jr. right? Does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend. We’re creating an inspiring documentary called Courage to Love The Power of Compassion, which explores extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who are deeply hurtful. Gissele: Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love, not only on those offering it, but also receiving it. In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore where the love and compassion are part of our human nature, and how we can bridge divides with those we disagree with. Gissele: If you’d like to support our film, please go to www M-A-I-T-R-E-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. It’s mitre center.com/documentary Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. [00:01:00] Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about self-compassion in teenagers. And my guest is Dr. Gissele: Karen Bluth, who’s an associate professor emerita at the University of North Carolina, where she studies how mindful self-compassion improves the mental health of teens and young adults. She’s the author of five books for teens and caregivers, including The Self-Compassion Workbook for Teens and Mindful Self-Compassion for Teens in Schools. Gissele: In addition, she’s a 2022 recipient of the Inaugural Mind and Life Foundation Award for Public Communication of Contemplative Research. Yay. As a mindfulness practitioner for over 45 years, a mindfulness teacher and an educator with over 18 years of classroom teaching experience, Dr. Bluth frequently gives, talks conducts workshops, and teaches classes in self-compassion in educational and community settings and trains [00:02:00] teachers in mindful self-compassion for teens internationally. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Karen Bluth. Hi, Karen. Karen: Hi. It’s well. It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for coming. I think this is a topic that it’s definitely needs to be discussed, and as a mother of two teens, I know the need for self-compassion. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got started in this work. Karen: Sure. Well it really takes me back to my teen years. I was in high school, it, I was a senior in high school. It was 1975 and I needed. A topic for an independent study project that I had to do for my English class. and it was due the next day. I was driving down the road. I didn’t have my topic of course. Karen: I was driving down the road and outta the corner of my eye, I saw a sign that said something about meditation. Tm at that ti at that time it was transcendental meditation. It still [00:03:00] is actually, but I remembered hearing something about meditation in a different class in my social studies class. And there was something about it when we talked about it in that social studies class that resonated with me. Karen: And I remember thinking, Hmm, that makes sense. So when I saw that sign out of the corner of my eye, I thought, oh, well, let me check this out. So I pulled in. It was this old house I remember, and I went in and I picked up some brochures about transcendental meditation. And talked to the people there and they said, well if you want to be initiated, and I think that was the word they used, come back Saturday at 10 o’clock, I think they said, bring flowers and a piece of fruit. Karen: So it sounded very mysterious to me, but I did, I went back and, and was given a mantra at that time, and that was the beginning of my meditation practice. And you know, I practiced for my senior year in high school. I think when I went to college, it kind of fell away [00:04:00] for a couple of years. And then I got back into it after college and have been practicing meditation, mindfulness since you know, probably the mid eighties. Karen: Regularly. It’s been a cornerstone, an anchor throughout my entire adult life. As I’m sure as I’m sure you know, it has been for, for many people. I, I was very lucky to start early on. And then sometime in the nineties I had little kids and so I spent a fair amount of time in my car with them, in their car seats, trying to get them to nap because they wouldn’t nap at home. Karen: Yeah, I imagine there’s a lot of people that, that resonate with this. And so I had a cassette tape at that time. That’s what we used in our cars of poetry of self-compassion read by the British poet, David White. And this cassette tape had been passed around my meditation group [00:05:00] and so I had this copy and I listened to these poems and. Karen: I think I internalized the message a lot because it was in my car stereo for quite some time. And so this message of self-compassion became really integrated into into, you know, how I spoke to myself. And then about a decade later, I decided to go back to school and get my PhD and I wanted to bring together the different threads of my life. Karen: So that was my personal life, my mindfulness practice Gissele: mm-hmm. Karen: And this whole time I was, I was teaching in schools. I was a teacher and middle school and upper elementary school, fifth grade, mostly also younger grades, but mostly fifth grade and middle school. And so youth and, and, and being with youth and. Karen: Wanting to improve the lives of youth was [00:06:00] really very central to me and my mission actually. And so I, when, when I went back to school in 2008, I wanted to bring together these different threats of my life, my personal mindfulness practice, and my interest in helping youth. And at that time, it was just a few years after Kristen Neff was publishing her work. Karen: So her first articles, research articles on self-compassion came out in 2003. And so this was five years later. There wasn’t that much published at that time and nothing with teens. And so that’s when I just started diving into the work at that point. So that’s a long, a long story really, but that’s really how, how I came to where I am now. Gissele: It’s wonderful. I love that as the teen, you, it’s like, okay, well I’m gonna be initiated here. I’ll show up with my stuff. Karen: It was like, why not? You know? It was 1975. I was like, you know, whatever. It sounds a little weird. Fruit and flowers and [00:07:00] a mantra, but whatever, you know? Gissele: Mm. Yeah. That’s lovely. I do Kriya yoga and so there, there is like an initiation part of the, the component too, and there’s like the offering. Gissele: So yeah, that I resonated with that. I’m interested to to know what the receptivity is of young people towards self-compassion. And the reason why I ask that is as, as a mother of two teenagers, I know that when I, you know, I emphasized to them the importance of meditation, the importance of loving yourself. Gissele: They understand it, but they don’t always wanna practice what I’m doing. And so they wanna find their own path to loving themselves and being compassionate to themselves. What has been the reception of young people? When you show up to schools Karen: Yeah, of course, of course. So yeah, it’s interesting. Karen: So I hear from parents a lot that there’s, and this is actually, you know, this is the job of teens, is to resist what comes from parents. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: And find their own way, as you said. So this is not [00:08:00] not only is it not a bad thing, it’s actually a good thing that they’re a little bit resistant, a little bit of, Hmm. Karen: I don’t wanna just like take on what you’re handing me. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: So what is the reception? It depends who it’s coming from. So again, if it’s coming from a parent, of course it varies. It depends on the relationship between the parent and the kid. But usually, and I’m making a generalization here, there is Karen: A little bit of resistance, a little bit too, you know, maybe a little bit more than a little bit of resistance. Generally after the first class teens if we don’t push them and we don’t, you know, we, it’s always an invitation to participate in these classes. we’re not heavy handed about it. Karen: We don’t require them. Not that you could anyway, you can’t require somebody to do these practices, right? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: We just invite them in, but we don’t you know, we’re not heavy handed. We invite them in and if [00:09:00] we approach it that way the resistance decreases a lot. And you know, the teens might be quiet, but they’re taking it in. Karen: And I have to tell you that. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard from teens at the end of a class teens will pull me aside and say something like, you know, this was really my mom’s idea to take this class, or, this was my therapist’s idea. I didn’t really wanna do it, but I’m so glad I did. Karen: I frequently hear that. You know, this is the nature of the beast, you know, this is what, this is what teens are supposed to be doing. They’re supposed to be questioning, they’re supposed to be particularly questioning what comes on, you know, what the adults around them are saying to them. Gissele: I agree with you. I think it’s a developmental stage, right? Because we’re constantly trying to improve, what our parents did be better, be different, if we only just accepted the status quo , I don’t think there’d be progress . I’m curious [00:10:00] as to what some of the outcomes you have seen What are some of the things that you have found have helped, maybe some of the things that maybe weren’t as successful? Karen: Yeah. So well first of all, we know from research that teens who are more self-compassionate experience less depression, anxiety, and stress. For example, we know that as teens progress through adolescence, they tend to become more depressed. Karen: And that’s mostly driven by females. And that, that when teens are more self-compassionate, they’re less likely to get depressed as they move through the teen years. So we see that. We also know that stress is linked to depression, but we know that teens who are more self-compassionate, when they’re stressed, they’re less likely to be depressed. Karen: We also know that depression is linked to self-injury non-suicidal self-injury, things like cutting. But teens who are more self-compassionate are less likely to [00:11:00] self-injure when they’re depressed. so we see across many studies in many different places all over the world, we see that self-compassion actually acts as a protective factor or a buffer against. Karen: Some of these difficult challenges in the teen years. And we also know when we actually teach teens self-compassion through these different through our mindful self-compassion for teens course and workshops and things like that, we see that teens at the end experience less depression than they did at the beginning. Karen: Less anxiety, less stress. And in our most recent study with teens who had some suicidal ideation going in, that they had significantly less suicidal ideation at the end of the study. Gissele: That’s really, really powerful. I just wanted to clarify. You said driven by females? Gissele: Does that mean that it’s mostly young girls who are experiencing the [00:12:00] depression? Karen: I. Well, what we see is that as girls move from age 11 or 12 to 18 generally they become of course it’s generalization, but overall teen girls become more depressed and by the time they’re 18 or so, 18 or 19, they are twice as likely to be depressed as males of the same age. Karen: And that statistics stays the same stable through adulthood. So, you know, adult women are generally twice as likely to be depressed as adult men. That doesn’t mean that that boys or men aren’t struggling also they are. It’s just that their way of expressing their discontent, dissatisfaction, unhappiness is not through depression. Karen: It’s through other means. Usually external. Usually things like anger comes [00:13:00] out with anger. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. In this world of COVID, we have young people being more isolated and lonely and with all the school shootings that have happened in America in particular not as much in Canada I’m curious as to the impact of self-compassion on improving relationships for young people. Gissele: Does self-compassion work help them in terms of relationships with one another? Karen: Yeah. Well, we do see we do have a study with young adults that shows and these, these were 18 through 30 that shows decrease in loneliness when these young adults were more self-compassionate. I think what we’re seeing it overall is that obviously through COVID, there’s a lot of isolation, loneliness a lot more turning to social media, turning to technology now, AI and, what [00:14:00] social media does unfortunately is exacerbate this sense of comparing oneself with others, right? Mm-hmm. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: And of course, even though we all know, including teens, that what’s posted in social media is not the full picture of somebody’s life. It’s the curated picture of somebody’s life still. Karen: It exacerbates a sense of, I’m not good enough, I’m not worthy. Look at that person there, you know, they have all this great stuff going on in their lives, and I don’t, you know, so self-compassion can be helpful there. And in fact, in our program, we have a social media exercise and what we teach. Karen: Teens is how to be aware of how they’re feeling when they’re engaging with social media. So we don’t tell them social media’s bad, don’t engage in it because first of all, that’s not gonna work. Second of all, as adults, [00:15:00] we engage with social media. You know, it would be hypocritical of us, us to say not to. Karen: So what we do, which I think is a lot more helpful and also empowering to teens, is to teach them to notice what are you feeling when you’re engaging with social media? What’s coming up for you? Are you feeling this sense of, oh, I’m not good enough, or are you feeling lonely or sad? Or maybe you’re feeling excited, maybe you’re feeling connected. Karen: You know, it’s not all bad. So notice what you’re feeling and then make a choice that’s good for you, that’s healthy for you, you know, take care of yourself. So, so, so self-compassion is all about being good to yourself, supporting yourself, standing up for yourself, you know, doing what’s healthy for yourself.[00:16:00] Karen: It’s all of that. So if you’re noticing that, that something is, makes you feel bad, you have the power to limit it or shut it down completely. And whether that’s social media or you know, a toxic relationship with a friend, you know, you can do that also. But so it’s bringing awareness to what you’re feeling when you’re engaging with them. Gissele: I really appreciate that you said this because I think, I don’t wanna underestimate how powerful what you just said is. Because so many of us are so distractible, we have no idea how we’re feeling in our body. And until we’re present in our body, we can’t really understand how we’re treating ourselves. Gissele: And so to allow young people to just notice how they’re feeling about certain things helps them understand, Hey, wait a minute, is this a positive thing for me or a negative thing for me? And makes them more aware about the choices they’re making and therefore they can choose differently, . They might not choose [00:17:00] differently, but it gives them that awareness of like, how am I being impacted by everything? Gissele: And this is really authentically me, Then they can make that choice. They could take their power back. So I think that’s fantastic. Can you share a little bit about some of the other things that you do in your self-compassion program with teens? Like how do you get them to engage? Gissele: ‘Cause I don’t know if I would see a teen just sitting for hours and hours doing meditation. Karen: Sure. Yeah. Well, we don’t ask them to sit for hours and hours, you know, to practice. Karen: First of all, it’s adapted from Kristen Neff and Chris Gerner’s, mindful self-compassion class for adults. The teen class is different in that it does involve it’s much more activity based. it’s developmentally appropriate. So at the beginning of every class and there are eight classes there’s a little bit of art and it could be mindful drawing. Karen: It could be there’s one class which is. My favorite art activity, which involves playing with UBIC, which if you’re not familiar with Ubic, [00:18:00] it’s like the best slime ever. it comes from the Dr. Seuss book, Barnaby and the Ubik. But it’s, it’s just a wonderful substance and it, and it foreshadow something that we do later in the class. Karen: Each art activity foreshadows something that happens in that class. So we have a little bit of art, like 10 minutes of art at the beginning of every class. we emphasize it’s not about creating some beautiful thing that you’re gonna hang on your wall. It’s about just noticing feeling of a pin in your hand or whatever. Karen: You know, so it’s mindful activity. We have a couple of music meditations with the teens, which the teens absolutely love. We play some games. We introduce informal practices. Mostly we introduce some formal practices, but it’s mostly informal practices, which means things that you can do in the moment. Karen: So you’re starting to feel a little stressed. Notice the feeling of your feet on the floor, you know, that point of contact. and that’s because when we [00:19:00] start to feel stressed, we’re generally in our heads, we’re worrying, we’re anxious. Mm-hmm. It’s all going on in our heads. And when we bring attention to something physical, like the sensation of our feet on the floor, it can be very grounding. Karen: So mostly informal practices. So our regular class is an afterschool class, which is eight sessions, 90 minutes. We also have a school version, which is 16 different sessions, which are 45 minutes long each. Karen: And then we also have have what I’m calling drop in sessions. And this is because school counselors have told us that, you know, sometimes they don’t have a big chunk of time with kids. They have only 10 minutes or 15 minutes. So we have these drop in sessions where they could just go ahead into the class, teach this for 10 minutes, and and so they get a little bit of taste of, of what this is about, or, you know, a number of different drop-in sessions. Gissele: Hmm. [00:20:00] Thank you for sharing that. Gissele: I wanted to mention how important art and music and play are in terms of really reconnecting us with ourselves. Gissele: there’s been so much intergenerational trauma in my family and our history that I’ve had to kind of go back to basics and realize how difficult it was for me to play , how difficult it was for me to sit there and be present with myself. Gissele: Even coloring. I tried coloring and I just kind of rushed through it. Like I had an appointment and I’m like, why am I not allowing myself to be in this moment? But those opportunities, art and music, things that in the school system we haven’t always prioritized , I think is really powerful. Karen: yeah. And I think as adults we don’t play enough by any, by any means, you know? And, in fact, when we train teachers in the program we frequently hear from these adult adults that, you know, they wanna do these activities, you know, because they’re fun. [00:21:00] we need to play more, we need to have more fun, just lighthearted, play. Gissele: Yeah. I’m allowing myself to dance more and twirl more, and play more, even though I do it awkwardly. ’cause there’s always this voice in my head that is like, I have to color it perfectly. Gissele: Right? Like, which is weird because I like to think that I’m pretty compassionate with myself. But as I really am stepping up into Being more connected with my inner child, I can see those little tiny things where I’m like, oh, maybe I should have colored this nicer. Maybe this should have been inside the line. Karen: And teens have those voices also, you know, and which is why we emphasize as they’re, as they’re actually doing the art activity, we say at least several times in that 10 minute period, remember, we don’t care what this looks like. This is not about the product. Karen: It’s not about producing some beautiful thing. It’s about simply noticing, noticing what’s [00:22:00] going on. Noticing noticing the sound of the pencil on the paper. You know, is that making a sound? Notice the feeling when your hand is gripping. You know, the, the pencil is, is there a tightness in your hand? You know, so it’s all about that. Karen: It’s all about noticing, feeling, noticing the process, noticing the sensations that are going on as you’re doing the art. So we’re always emphasizing that as as they’re doing the art and even thoughts noticing, you know, you notice any thoughts coming up in your head like, oh, I don’t like this particular part of the drawing, and can you remember? Karen: That’s just a thought. And notice your thought. And as they’re learning more about the mindfulness piece in the class, will, you know, bring in that notice of thought. It’s just a thought. It doesn’t mean it’s a fact. You can let that thought drift away. Gissele: And that is so powerful. Because personally, having done [00:23:00] self-compassion practices is that you’re teaching. Gissele: reconnection . Right. With yourself, with your body, with your being, as a society, we’re so disconnected from ourselves, from other people. And to just even feel like your fingertips in your body and see how tense we are in the thoughts. Gissele: In my own practice, I’m learning to love my fear and focusing on learning to love everything, Even the challenging moments Can I truly love everything in my life or just even if I can’t, can I just accept it? Can I learn to just allow it? Gissele: And it can feel dynamic, right? So I can imagine for teenagers with their hormones that it must be quite the experience. Mm-hmm. Curious as to your perspectives around how teenagers are doing nowadays. Karen: Yeah. What I am seeing is a lot of struggle. It’s a really hard time and that’s what, you know, the statistics that we’re seeing that there’s high levels of [00:24:00] depression, anxiety, and loneliness. Karen: It’s an overwhelming world that we’re living in. I’m working on a book right now with my wonderful colleague, Marissa Knox. And this is a book for young adults and. We haven’t settled on a title yet, but we are bringing in this idea, and this is, you know, throughout the book and it’s about self-compassion for young adults. Karen: But this idea that we are living in an incredibly challenging world right now. Unbelievably challenging in so many ways, on so many levels. And we have to acknowledge that, you know, and we have to acknowledge that, that things are much harder now than they have been in decades past. And, you know, when I was a young adult, it wasn’t easy either. Karen: You know, there was a huge recession. I mean, I graduated from a good university and couldn’t get a job after, and I was waiting tables, you know, it [00:25:00] wasn’t easy then either, but but it’s a lot more difficult now, you know? The economy is, is even harder and rougher now than it was in the eighties when. Karen: Was waiting tables after graduating. And and you know, I have two young adult children and you know, I hear a lot about their lives and their friends’ lives and how hard it’s, I mean, so we have to acknowledge that. I and you know, when I’m teaching young adults and teens I always bring that in, that, you know, this isn’t your fault. Karen: That you feel all all this huge range of difficult emotions. You know, you’re living at a time when, you know things are really hard, politically, economically on the global stage, everything, you know so. To acknowledge that, to put that out there, to have that be the context in which we [00:26:00] then bring in self-compassion and we talk about how, okay, so now knowing that the world is this way, and guess what, for the moment we can’t do anything about it. Karen: We can in the long run, yes. And we’re working towards that, but right now, in the moment, we’re stuck with it. So how can we take care of ourselves? How can we support ourselves knowing that it’s rough right now and it may not be our fault that we can’t get a job or feel safe in our schools or, Gissele: yeah. Karen: All of that. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think acknowledging is sort of the first step towards saying, okay, where is my power in this moment?Because I think it’s one of the conversations I had with my students is like, you know, in the time when you might feel so powerless, where do you have power? Even if it’s just in terms of how you determine how you feel about the situation. Gissele: Are you gonna let the situation sink you [00:27:00] down and lead you to further depression, Or are you going to choose to say. I’m gonna choose to be kind to myself. I’m gonna choose to do the best I can. I’m gonna choose to allow and do in the moment what I can. And then, you know, if I make a mistake or a trip over over the same rock, I’m gonna pick myself up and keep going. Gissele: Like, or if I can’t, I can’t. Right? So how do we practice that ’cause there’s an element of me that believes that part of the reason why we are in the situation we are in terms of the world, is because of a disconnection, because of a lack of self-compassion and self-love. Gissele: There’s a lack of love in the world in general. And we keep thinking that the way that we’re gonna approach it is have more money and be more successful and do all of these things, but it just breeds separation. Which leads to my next question of how can self-compassion help us create community? Karen: Ah, yeah, so that’s a great [00:28:00] question. Karen: Because of course, as we know, community is absolutely vital. Having community is vital. So I think you know, the first thing that comes to mind is that when we’re more self-compassionate we have less fear of failure because we know we’re not gonna beat ourselves up when we fail. If we fail at something, we’re just gonna say, you know, well, you know, it doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. Karen: It just means like, that didn’t work for me in, in that particular moment. How this applies to community is that we’re more likely to reach out to others, right? So if we’re not so afraid that of getting rejected by others, we’re more likely to make an attempt move out of our comfort zone and reach out and engage in a conversation with. Karen: Somebody we don’t know, for example, we’re more likely to join a community group or, you know, in the case [00:29:00] of teens, you know, sign up for some new sport or music class or whatever to engage with others more and develop that community when we’re feeling so unqualified, unworthy not enough, we’re much more likely to isolate. Karen: And so in that way you know, obviously that’s how community develops is, where we’re able to reach out and en engage with others in, you know, all different ways. Gissele: Mm. Yeah. And the other thing I found in, especially in my self-compassion practice has been that it’s led me to be more authentically myself. Gissele: Mm-hmm. And you can’t really, you can’t really allow yourself to be seen and to be loved and to find your people if you are not allowing yourself to be authentically yourself or to be vulnerable . And so I think that’s a really key aspect of self-compassion, ’cause that’s really what primarily young people want. Gissele: They just wanna be authentically themselves. But we hear all these [00:30:00] messages. I know, I heard them growing up. You know, all about how we have to look a certain way. We have to be a certain way. There’s a right answer to everything. Gissele: and so I think that’s the beauty of self-compassion, is the allowing of multiple perspectives is the allowing of differences in the discomfort. Karen: when you were talking about that, what I was thinking about was in our our teen class, we have a session where teens have the opportunity to really reflect on their core values, and we take them through a particular activity to do this so that they’re thinking about what’s really important to me, what do I really value? Karen: You know how do I wanna live my life and what are the things I wanna let go of, you know? Mm-hmm. So it’s not a conclusive activity where they get to the end and they say, okay, this is what I want. You know? But it’s an opportunity for them to really take a few moments to think about and to reflect on, you know, what do I wanna keep [00:31:00] in my life? Karen: What do I want to hold onto? What do I value and what do I, maybe wanna think about letting go of? It’s just the beginning of that conversation with themselves. Gissele: Hmm. And I love that ’cause I’ve had to do this later in my life, realizing that the things I wanted to have were based on somebody else’s perspective of what they thought I should have. Gissele: And I, I went through a really stripping of like, who am I really? And again, I, this is older, right? Like, who am I really, what do I really love? What do I really wanna do? What do I really want my life to look like? And it’s not anything that I would’ve thought would’ve fit the picture, like it’s not. Gissele: Mm-hmm. But it’s so much better . It’s so much greater, it’s so much more me. Karen: Mm-hmm. Gissele: I was curious as to whether in the program there are elements of how to deal with conflict with one another Karen: Yeah. Well we do have a session activity where we talk about conflict with parents. Mm. And, Gissele: mm-hmm. Karen: Why, first of all, [00:32:00] why that occurs. So, you know, why is that happening? And we talk about the developmental stage and the brain changes and we show this video clip actually from the movie Crudes. Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there’s a teen in there and she’s having a conflict with her dad. And the dad just wants to keep her safe and isolated and in the cave, and she wants to go out and explore. And we talk about how the dad is doing what he’s supposed to be doing, and the teen is doing what she’s supposed to be doing. Karen: Neither one of them is wrong. And yet conflict ensues because they have different objectives and what can you do when conflict ensues when this happens? And so first of all, just having that awareness that, this dad’s not trying to be mean and horrible. Karen: He’s just trying to keep his kids safe. And sort of having that awareness and then how self-compassion can support you because when you’re [00:33:00] supporting yourself in that way, you can add through mindfulness also. You can regulate your emotions and which is the first step, you know? Karen: Well awareness is the first step. That would be the second step. And then get to a place where you can actually. Talk about what’s going on and acknowledge what the other person wants and needs also. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. I I love that you brought the movie up, the crudes. ’cause what I, remember you know, they both the daughter and the father push each other, right? Gissele: they push each other to grow and learn. And I wanted to emphasize as well for my listeners about something that you just said, which is really important, which is dealing with Gissele: conflict. the first part is always awareness. It’s like awareness of how am I feeling? What am I, what am I thinking? You know, what’s happening in my body. And the second one is being able to hold space for those difficult feelings , right? Validating our feelings, holding space for those difficult feelings, having compassion for ourselves so that then we can have [00:34:00] compassion for other people’s, even if their perspective’s completely different, like differ from our own. Gissele: And so I think that’s the, the beauty of self-compassion is that it helps us have compassion for ourselves and other people. Sometimes the, as they called the disliked person, mm-hmm. But it really does start with the awareness because I feel like we don’t really know how to have conversations with people anymore. Gissele: There’s like this global canceling that happens because I think we are just so overwhelmed by our own emotions and we haven’t really been. At least some generations haven’t really been taught the social emotional part of, regulating our emotions so that we can then do the work of listening. Gissele: And you know, when I think about listening, I think about the work of Valerie Kaur who talks about revolutionary love. And she says, you know, listening, if you’re truly listening, you have to be willing to change Mm-hmm. Karen: Mm-hmm. Gissele: And that that’s can feel difficult. [00:35:00] It can, Karen: yeah. Karen: I think that’s, I I think you hit on a really important and very big issue which is that there isn’t a lot of listening going on. You know, there really isn’t. You know, there might be people sitting there waiting for the other person to finish talking so that they can say their piece. Right? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: But, of course, when you’re really listening, that’s not what’s going on. When you’re really listening, you’re open and willing to change your mind. So yes, that’s certainly part of this whole, you know, the program at the very beginning, in our first class, we have a piece called Community Agreements where we all agree on how the class is going to proceed. Karen: And one of the things is deep listening. Really listening, without that judging voice, you know, put that judging voice aside as much as possible. [00:36:00] Gissele: And that takes practice. Karen: Yes, Gissele: it does. Karen: It absolutely does. Gissele: often we go straight to judgment instead of professing observations. The other thing I wanted to mention was listening to the voices of young people is so important, which is why I think also your work is so phenomenal . Historically, we have not viewed young people’s voices as important as adult voices, or especially the voices of, of young children. Gissele: What are your thoughts about our ability to be able to listen to young people and collaborate with them in a way that makes them feel involved? ’cause I know I, that’s, I didn’t feel that way when I was young. Gissele: Young people were not invited to sit at the table with the adults to talk about adult things and talk about the world, How can we, emphasize more listening to young people? Karen: Yeah. It’s interesting. I too remember being a teen and clearly thinking, you know what, I know what I’m talking about here. Karen: I have ideas. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: You know, [00:37:00] and I actually did have the opportunity as a teen to be on an adult board of, mm-hmm. Of a nonprofit organization. It was a theater organization that we were involved with. and it was a great opportunity, we need to hear teen’s, voices, you know, we need to hear what they have to say. Karen: That doesn’t mean thatwe’re going to make decisions based on everything that they say or, because obviously we’ve been on the planet for longer and we have a certain amount of wisdom coming from our experience, but truly they know what they need and giving them the opportunity to talk about it and to express it and to listen. Karen: You know, I think what teens want more than anything is really to be listened to. Is to be heard. And maybe that’s what we all want more than every [00:38:00] anything is to be heard. Right. Particularly in the teen years, it’s really the first time when they are aware that they have some opinions and values and things to contribute to the conversation. Karen: And as adults I think it’s our responsibility to listen and to hear their input Gissele: Yeah. Karen: As much as we can again, that doesn’t mean we’re gonna make decisions based on, what they suggest. I remember my daughter as a 15-year-old, went through a stage where she just felt like she didn’t need to wear her seatbelt in the car. Karen: And I was like that’s not happening. Like, now I Gissele: got Karen: this. Nope. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: No. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Karen: So it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t mean we go with everything that they, that they wanna do by any stretch, but, but to listen, I think is important. Gissele: Yeah. And they, that’s a great example. I’m curious as to her perspective as to why she felt in [00:39:00] that moment she didn’t need seat belts anymore. Karen: You know, I can ask her. I don’t remember. I think she was just exercising herperceived right. as an individual, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Obviously when it comes to safety, you know, we have to, Gissele: there’s a history there as to how we got seat belts. Gissele: Yeah. And so engaging in that conversation as you were talking, I was thinking about the generations and how sometimes it’s difficult for parents to hear the perspectives of their young people. if it, ignites shame and guilt, right. I’ve had conversations with my parents about the impact of my childhood and there’s been lots of like deflecting because it was difficult for them to hold some of these things that I was claiming. Gissele: And I’ve been on the other end as well in terms of like my children when they say stuff and you’re like, I hurt you. And so being able to apologize for me has been really important as a parent to emphasize to my kids that I’m not perfect. You know, we’re, Karen: we’re winging it out here [00:40:00] Gissele: and, and how much forgiveness and how much apologizing needs to happen and how much communication needs to happen when mistakes are made on both sides, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. And how sometimes those mistakes and those conversations bring us closer together . But I can relate to my parents’ experience ’cause we all wanna be. At least from my perspective, I wanna be a good mom. I wanna be a loving parent. I wanna be the best parent that I can be. Gissele: And sometimes despite your best intense, you make mistakes. you hurt them. you do things like maybe that are based on your own fear. And so I find the practice of self-compassion really helps me be kind to myself and so that I can listen to that feedback and say, you know what? Gissele: I’m gonna sit with this. But it can feel difficult. Gissele: self-compassion really helped me sit with those difficult feelings because I wasn’t judging myself. A bad parent. Karen: yeah. You know, I think being a parent has been so good for my self and compassion practice just because of [00:41:00] everything that you said. Karen: My daughters are now 31 and 33, and you know, of course I made lots and lots of mistakes, I was one of those moms that I prioritized being a good mom. It was so important to me, you know, to be a good mom. And yet I made mistakes. And recently even I, maybe, I don’t know, six, eight months ago I was talking to my older daughter and there was something that I did when she was a teen that I felt, you know, I wish I could have. Karen: Not done what I did. And I felt really bad about what I did. And I, you know, I was talking to her about it and I said, I’m so sorry that I, put my foot down. I know what you really needed was a big hug. I wish I had, you know, done it differently. And she said, you know, mom, don’t worry about it. Karen: You can let that go. You know, I’m fine, But it helped me, first of all to be able to say that. And I think I was able to say that part at least in part, if not, [00:42:00] if not solely because of my self-compassion practice. And I think part of what self-compassion does for us is, is to remind us that we don’t have to be perfect and we’re not going to be any way. Karen: We’re not going to be perfect. We’re gonna make mistakes. So can we forgive ourselves? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: When we make mistakes, you know? And then if we can, and if it’s appropriate or if we want to or whatever, go to that person, you know, like go to our kid and say, look, I am really sorry that I did that and at the time I thought that was best. Karen: And now I see that’s not what you needed. Yeah. And I’m really sorry. Gissele: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s so interesting, and I think it’s important for us to have this conversation for two reasons. Number one is we think we have to be perfect at being compassionate or none at all. Gissele: none of us are perfect. And I think that’s the problem . We expect ourselves to be truly compassionate, the pinnacle of love [00:43:00] and really just, can you just be a little bit better than yesterday? That’s all that requires. Can you be a little bit more loving? Can you be a little bit more kind? Gissele: That’s all that is really required. And the second thing, which I think you emphasize, which is so important, It’s that we think that being compassionate, it’s gonna be like, well, I’m just gonna, allow my crappy behavior. It is so difficult to be loving and compassionate towards yourself when you don’t feel you deserve it. And what I found in my own practice is it actually enabled me to sit. More. Gissele: With all those aspects that I didn’t like about myself, the more that I was compassionate with myself, I didn’t let myself off the hook, I was able to see how my behavior could have been hurtful , was able to see how there was times when I wasn’t living my values, but if I hadn’t been compassionate, I would’ve deflected. Gissele: I would’ve like invalidated. I would’ve been like, no, no. It’s their problem. It’s not me. And so this is why the practice of compassion is so important, especially starting younger. [00:44:00] So a few more questions. I say youngest that you have done work on it. And are there groups that are helping our, really young people practice compassion? Karen: Yeah, absolutely. So I work with teens and as young as 11 or so. Gissele: Mm. Karen: There are people who work with younger, with younger kids. My colleague Jamie Lynn Tartera works with kids age about seven to 10 or so. And then my colleague Catherine Lovewell in the UK works with kids who are younger and she has a wonderful book out and stuffed animals and and all this really wonderful wonderful stuff for younger kids. Karen: And it’s just adorable. I have some of her things right here. I know you’re not gonna be able to see it over audio, but some of her, so these are her [00:45:00] stuffies that go with her, with her. I like Gissele: the rainbow one. Karen: Yeah. Well, this is actually, so her book is about the inner critic and Yeah, this is Crusher, which is your inner critic, and this is Booster. Karen: Who is your self-compassionate. So the Rainbow Guide is, oh, that’s beautiful, but she just has an unbelievably wonderful program. So yes, there are people working with younger kids and yeah, it’s so important to start early. Gissele: Thanks. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I absolutely appreciate that you’re working with teens ’cause that can be a difficult population, but definitely, definitely needed. Gissele: I think sometimes we make it more acceptable to do those kinds of things, like self-compassion, self-kindness practices with young kids, and then for some reason it just kind of drops off the face of the earth and we’re not continuing that practice. So I think it’s wonderful that you are doing that work. Gissele: Two more questions. I’m asking all of my, guests what their definition of self-love is. Karen: Definition of [00:46:00] self-love accepting yourself for who you are. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Karen: With all your so-called challenges and securities. Because really that’s, that’s what makes us who we are, is the whole package. Karen: You know, the things we like about ourselves and the things we’re not as comfortable with about ourselves and when we can. And you used this word earlier, which I think is, is really great. Allow the word allow when we can allow those parts of ourselves to be there, to be present and to accept them. Karen: Say, you know what, you know, I’m not the most patient person in the world. I know that about myself. And you know what? It’s okay. It’s okay. I’m not gonna be perfect and I’m not gonna be good at everything. I. And that’s okay. It’s okay not to be good at everything. So I, you know, my definition of self-love would be [00:47:00] just to, you know, be able to allow all those parts of your, of yourself, you know, to be present and to be there and maybe eventually move towards embracing them. Gissele: Hmm. I love that. So last question. Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Where can they find your books? Please share. Karen: there’s two websites. There’s my website, which is my name http://www.karenbluth.com. And so you’ll find out about me about my work. On that website, we have a new website, which I really would like to promote. Karen: it’s a website, for teens teens, and that’s http://www.self-compassionforteens.org. And self-compassion is hyphenated. And so that is a recent website that we’ve just launched in the last couple of months which has all kinds of resources for teens, videos, short videos about explaining what self-compassion [00:48:00] is, you know, what the inner critic is, how can we deal with the inner critic. Karen: There’s there’s a quiz on there. See how self-compassionate you are. There’s video, there’s some videos that. Teams who have learned taken our courses, have talked about their experience with self-compassion. And then there’s section about taking a deeper dive. Anyway, I really would like teens everywhere to, to know about this website and have access to it. Karen: And it’s a great place to start to learn about how to be nicer to yourself. Gissele: Beautiful. There’ll be a link on our site. So thank you very much, Karen, for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us and for the work that you’re doing, which is so, so important and so needed at this time. And thank you for everyone that tuned into another episode of Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: See you soon.

Why is it so difficult for doctors to delegate, even when it so obviously impacts the team? Kiera and Dana discuss the art of delegation, and where it overlaps with clear expectations and accountability. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I love when I get the consultants to podcast with me. And today I got the one and only Dana,   I actually have a better nickname than Danie for you. I've like upgraded. I really do think you're Dynamite Dana. And so welcome to the show. Dynamite Dana. Like you just are dynamite in so many ways, so many areas. People love you. I know people are like donuts with Dana. That one was really catchy and clever, but I think like dynamite Dana is who I'm going to stick with. So how are you today there? Dynamite Dana.   The Dental A Team (00:27) Doing good. I'm glad you found one that felt right.   The Dental A Team (00:29) I mean, I still love Dainty   so much and that will probably always forever remain. ⁓ But Dana, truly you're a dynamite consultant and I've watched you evolve and it's like, ⁓ you were on the podcast with me last time where you took a practice from negative profitability to multi profitability in just a couple of months. And I think the dynamic and dynamite ability you have so like dynamic doesn't feel as cool as dynamite, but it's because you're this dynamic player and you're able to help teams, help doctors, help offices.   The Dental A Team (00:33) You   The Dental A Team (00:58) And really it's, think like role clarity, like really focusing on top priorities. And I think that that's like the clutch piece of consulting. If I like boil down what two consultants do differently is yes, we have this like Mary Poppins bag of tricks, but I think the piece is we know which Mary Poppins tool and prioritization and piece based on the numbers, based on the goals need to happen. And I think you're very, very dynamic and dynamite and being able to do that. So excited to have you on the show today.   The Dental A Team (01:26) Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. I haven't podcast in a while with you, so it's going to be fun.   The Dental A Team (01:31) great time girl.   think our last one was talking about your transformation practice. So today's gonna be fun because I think that this is a topic you and I see often is like   doctors struggle, teams struggle to delegate and they struggle to have like role clarity and I'm even guilty of this. Like I've watched myself like it's crazy when I have these podcast topics and I'm like hi it's me I know I'm the problem I know I'm hanging on to these issues I know I'm causing this chaos and so I kind of wanted to like talk about   why doctors struggle to delegate, why we get into this like bottleneck, and then what it can look like on the other side and how we've been able to help doctors. Like, I know you've got a couple in mind. I've got a couple in mind of what does it look like when we start to trust that process? So Dana, from your perspective, why do you feel like doctors don't delegate and we like bottleneck and we hold on or like owners and founders and office managers? Like, what is that? Like we know we're bottlenecking. Like it's annoying to me. I'm like, I know I'm having a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it. Like I know I'm not delegating. I know I'm holding on. know I'm freaking   like failing over here. What, like, why do think this is a rift? What are your thoughts?   The Dental A Team (02:32) I   I will say I feel like Dr. Personality is like a doer, right? They're so used to like to get to become a dentist, right? You have to have succeeded thus far in life. And I do feel like that in order to kind of get where they are, they've had to kind of always do right work really hard, hit the books really hard, hit the clinic really hard. And so I do feel like it's kind of ingrained in them just as humans is that they want to do all of the things. And I also think that there's a misconception of leadership. And being a good leader means doing all   things, making all the decisions, having everyone lean on you for everything.   The Dental A Team (03:07) Yeah, I love that you say that because ⁓ there's a book that, gosh, I should look up the name of it. mean, like, I really will actually, guys. Like, if you're watching, don't worry, I'm ⁓ looking this up right now. ⁓ But it's like the founder mindset. And I think so many of us, it's the founder's mentality, how to overcome the predictable crisis of growth. And I think about this book often because like you said, it's a...   what you have always done won't get you where you need to go. And like those habits and those patterns and the different pieces, it's this, like you said, like you had to work hard in dental school. You guys, watched you. Like I worked at a dental college. ⁓ We watched you be this person. And also there's a perfectionist piece of you literally are working in such small areas. Like the mouth is so small. You have to be perfect. You can't have that. Like, I mean,   shoot, you barely move that burr wrong and you're nicking the tooth next to it and you're like, dang, and now gotta like patch this thing up. Like you really do have such a small, finite controlling area. ⁓ But I think it's ⁓ a space of, we all know, Dana, it's like, logically, I know that if I delegate and I trust my team, my life gets better. So what do you feel like it is? Like, how do people actually let go of the vine? Maybe I'm asking for coaching for myself.   The Dental A Team (04:18) Yeah, and I think some of the hold back   is they might have tried to delegate something in the past and it didn't go very well, right? Because there's an art to actually delegating and delegating that is successful and setting real clear expectations. And so I find like, well, I've tried, right? But the person it fell through the cracks or there wasn't an accountability piece built in. And so I think it's like learning truly how to delegate correctly and delegate so that pieces come back to you and you're not chasing down the thing that you   thing that you gave because if you have to chase it down, if you have to check it, like it's still on your plate then, right? That, that it still hangs over your head if you, if those pieces aren't in place. And so sometimes I think too, it's like they have had a past history of trying to delegate and it's like not failing, but feeling like, I should have just done it anyway.   The Dental A Team (05:09) Totally. And I think as you said that like, I'm into now the how of like, okay, I hear that I agree. And I, it was funny, Jason, I, call it like tub talk, like think tank talk. Like we go out hot tubbing, we don't take our phones. It's like really beautiful and shoot, it just snowed. So I can't wait to get out there and like go hot tubbing in the snow. ⁓ it's a really magical world, but we were talking about it and I realized we're using a recruiter to help hire some team members for us that I'm really excited about that are like far out of my league that I don't even know how to hire. So   ⁓ brought in some executive recruiters for that. And I remember they were asking me, they're like, Kiera, what's going to break your trust the most? And I was like, I know actually, like for me, and so team members hearing this, the number one thing, and Dana, I'm saying this because you are not this person and I'm going to highlight you, I think there's also a space when doctors delegate to make sure the person we're delegating to is right person, right seat. ⁓ For me, I've learned that the way I lose trust the most is when people tell me they're going to follow through and they don't. Like I'm very, because I just feel like,   then don't do it. I get they have best intentions, but I'm more obsessed about outcomes and you delivering rather than you just taking a million things on to make me happy. ⁓ And so I thought about it, like, who are the people that I trust implicitly, like on our team and Jason, I'm not going to like do the role of X day. And I'm that's like unfair. You'll get to hear the like behind the scenes, Jason and Kiera talk. One doctor, he was like, Kiera, if I could just be a fly on the wall to hear the conversations you and Jason have. And I was like, I don't know if you want to know them all. ⁓   But I thought about it I was like, okay, my core crew that I really do trust, like what is it and how do I delegate to these people? Like Dana, I know, and this is why I called you Dynamite Dana and Dynamic Dana is Dana, I know with out of doubt, I can give you clients and you're gonna deliver and you're not gonna let me down and you're gonna follow up, you're gonna have scorecards, you're gonna show up to the coaching calls, you're going, like I never have to come and check in on you to make sure you're delivering to clients. Now, you may need help, that doesn't mean they're not gonna be like never asking, but I know you're gonna hit those deliverables. If I give you a project like, hey, you're gonna present,   Never in my mind have I been like, uh, Hope Dana is going to show up on that. Like I know I can count on Dana to be there. She's going to follow through. If she's got questions, you're going to proactively ask me. It like, I can give you tasks that they don't come back to me. Now there's other team members where I'm like, I feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole. I'm like, uh, did you check on that? Did you check on that? Did you check on that? Like, and I've noticed my anxiety is like lit to the next level. And I think as you were saying that and office managers and team members, I hope you hear this loud and clear.   This is the fastest way to break trust and not have a doctor trust you. And truth be told, like I'm going to just call out team members, not even just doctors. You're also being the bottleneck because your doctor doesn't trust you to give it to them. Now, doctors, there is a way for us to not take it back on. ⁓ But I was just, as you said that Dana, I think that there's a big space of doctors make sure that like, if you consistently have a person who's not following through and not delivering back to you, stop trying to make that person fit. Like just call it out of what it is and say, like, listen, this has to change. And if it doesn't, I recognize you're not right person.   Like Shelbi, ⁓ she's a kick-a personality for being that. She never lets anything slip through her. mean, Dana, she is on us like sticky. It's like, hey guys, where's this at? Where's that? But she's so nice about it. And there's just certain personalities that are that way. And then there's other personalities that are like more creative and you don't need them to be in. I don't need to delegate all that. Like they can have different projects. And so I think when you look at it, make sure that the person, and you can also look at people's personality profiles. There are some that are like detail centric.   They should be your operations. should be your office managers. They should be your billers. And then you're going to have people like myself. That's a little less on details, but I'm a dang good treatment coordinator. I don't need to have as many things. I just need to hit a goal. Like it's less confined versus an office manager. So I think also like picking people that are the right people for that. Dana, I talked a lot on that. What are your thoughts on that?   The Dental A Team (08:48) No, I completely agree. I do think it takes the right person in a seat and then once you have the right person clearly defining their role because sometimes too it's like who does it who has the capacity for me to delegate this to right and I think that sometimes things get lost because we ask the person that we always ask and yes they do but then we stretch them so thin things start to fall through the cracks because we haven't said hey is this something that you really feel like you can take on so it comes down to just like you said that trust that open communication and so I think   Role clarity helps delegation. It also helps like where does it make sense? Right? I'm probably not going to ask my biller to do treatment follow-up calls, right? I might probably ask the person that's working to my schedule or the treatment coordinator herself. So I think that all of these pieces, sometimes it's hard to like link when I'm like, okay, well, let's get clear job roles. Well, how does that help me delegate? Right? I think linking all these things together can really help a doctor see how   The Dental A Team (09:39) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (09:45) easy it can become and not just for doctors like yes this is for the doctor that holds on to everything but for leads that hold on to everything for oms that hold on to everything this is just a really clear path for you to see do i have the right person in that seat is their role really really clear and who has the capacity to take on anything that comes up or something that you want to take off your plate   The Dental A Team (10:08) Totally. And Dana, as you said that something, our Dental A Team is in like such a fun transition or like we are, think Dana's feeling, our whole team's feeling it like we have gone from what Dental A Team was to what Dental A Team is becoming. And I'm super excited. We're going to roll out like a state of the company. Dana doesn't know it yet. Like it's coming. Like I can't wait. I know she's feeling the buzz around it, but I recognize as a leader that sometimes you've got to call out what was and where we're going. And   our team went through a, what I've called like a snow globe freaking shake. Like we decided like, let's just throw all the confetti, shake every person into different spots. And it's like, Britt's in a different role. I'm in a different role. Shelbi's in a different role. Thinking as like consultants, like Dana, you pretty much stayed the same, but like everywhere else around us, we just like ripped change tour and we built an accountability chart and we had to really say like, okay, what are the seats that the organization needs without names on it? What are the tasks that realistically should go under here?   And then like, let's look to see what open roles we have, who fits in what spots. And I remember we had a leadership meeting in September of last year. And who I remember, Britt was sitting at the table, Tip was at the table, I was at the table and Britt looks me across the eyes and she's like, Kiera, I just want to highlight and recognize that what you're about to go through and what I'm about to go through, Shelbi, Tiff, this whole leadership, like it is going to be a shake and it's weird. And we all actually like Dana hasn't seen it yet. You're about to get your PDF version come next week. ⁓   of our accountability chart, because right now it is that like, who does this make sense? Like I have normally gone to Shelbi because it's easy and Shelbi and I were working on like fees and different things. And I realized like, well, yes, I used to do that. Shelbi actually needs to be an EA and needs to fully be in that role. And Britt's over finance now and I need to go to Britt. So it's just like, we are constantly like pull out the legend. call it like, let's look at our big legend over here. Like who should this task be under? But I actually think that helps with delegation. And then the team actually is empowered to say like, Hey,   is this my role and not in a combative way, but like, let's make sure that instead of us just going for easy paths, we're going to the correct people. And then those roles actually have KPIs and then you got job accountability below it. So I think like, if you don't have something like that, and this is where like org chart and accountability chart, they get harped on. I recognize like operations people, they come in, they're like, marketers love to give me a growth plan. Like, cool, I hear it. It's like top to the funnel, down to the funnel. Operations people love to give me an org chart.   And what I've noticed though is if you have that clarity of who does what delegation becomes much easier and accountability holding to becomes easier because we can pull out the paper and I'll be like, Britt, it says right here online, like squint your eyes. It's right there. Or we're like, okay, here's a process. It's not on anyone's plate. Let's look to see under which seat going to your capacity thing, Dana, which seat does this make sense? And can they take the capacity today or what needs to shift so that way they can.   But also I remember Tiffanie, ⁓ she was like, you guys have never told me what my full job is. So for me to say I have capacity during hot, I don't even know what it all encompasses. And so ⁓ as I worked with offices, as I worked through our own company, I will say accountability charts and org charts need like an update like every six to 12 months. And we relook to see are there additional tasks because businesses innovate, they evolve. mean, Dana, what you were starting to do versus what you're doing today, it has evolved. Everyone evolves and   I also think like we noticed when we were going through it, we have a VA who's amazing. Everybody loves Joash on our team. Shout out to Joash. ⁓ And we happened to notice that like we needed somebody over in marketing and marketing. were going to go hire somebody and we're like, Whoa, Joash has like 75 % of his time available right now. We could actually deploy him over in marketing and make that tour. That gap can be filled. And so I think like even in consultant world Dana, like you probably are like, Hey, I actually have space. I could take on more projects if you guys need. And this is how it's a   right seat, right role delegate, but then look at all the other players and like, Dana, you got really great strengths and some areas. What if we deploy you in this? So that way your leaders are not, especially as organizations grow bigger, let's deploy and use our team players to the highest level of clear job and also capacity. I think like then accountability is not as hard because we're not inundating just two or three people, but gosh, like as I say, all this, is an evolution of practice. ⁓ Tiff, Britt, Shelbi, and I were all talking like,   It's been the core four for a long time. Like we've just done everything and we're like, we now have 17 team members having four people try to do like a one. I mean, we're not even using half of our team. And yet the co like the top leaders are drowning. It's just an evolution. And I think that this is where bottlenecks revisions having an outside person come in and see it helping you guys elevate really just paramount. And so I'd say like quick steps are get that org chart. Like Dana was saying in the accountability chart.   figure out where the gaps are and who should it go under, not name, but position, and then put names in and see where gaps are and who could we pull in to help out. Like you said, and then you get the job descriptions that are super clear. And then we start holding accountable to that job description. It's very easy when we all see it, got it, and getting the whole team bought in. I'm not going to lie. It's taken us like four months to get here to where whole team's going to see it. There's been a lot of shifting and shaking and making sure we have it right. And then letting the team know it's going to evolve.   But just giving clarity, but even for me, I now know who do I go to, who do I pass this task to? It becomes so much easier to delegate and get rid of those bottlenecks. Dana, that was so much knowledge. Like welcome to behind the scenes. You get to learn firsthand on the podcast, you're welcome. like thoughts about that as a team, as a consultant, like what do you see in that?   The Dental A Team (15:23) Thank   you   I love that and just like kudos to you here in the leadership team for just always trying to map out those pieces and I do feel like as a team member I think it's important for doctors leaders to understand like team members most team members if you have right people right seat like we talked about in the beginning most team members want to grow they want to do a really great job they don't want to let you down when you give them a task and so this is just a pathway that   Create success for everybody. You can get those things off. You can hold accountability You can do all of those things with success and your team members get to elevate themselves grow within their position grow within their skill set And so it's just like a win-win overall for everyone when it's done this way   The Dental A Team (16:15) Yeah, no. And Dana, thank you for saying that. And thank you for the reminding. I think sometimes ⁓ when you have like one bad apple or one bad experience, I think as a leader, even myself, I don't know, my brother-in-law, was a, he's like this really big wig and build like these most incredible homes and all that. And I remember when I got married to Jason 15 years ago, I was like, gosh, Jay, your brother's always so grumpy. And I'm like, I get it. Businesses can pick at you and almost like take away that naive   innocence of how much people are great and you might see the dark side of humanity in spite of the goodness that you see. And I think for me, Dana, like you saying that it's like, no, that's a good, that's a good remembering and reminder for myself of team members really do want to make your life awesome. Team members really do love you and they want to rally around you and they want to be great and they want to grow and they want to evolve. They just sometimes need to know like, what is it you want? And also empowering team members like, can't wait, Dana, we're going to show this and   I'm excited for team members to look at this and be like, Hey, like raise a hand. Like I got space. I can help in these areas. Like this is where you use collective brains to help out, but team members like falling through. ⁓ but I also think like owners don't lose faith in like the goodness of your team. And, sometimes they'll drops. It could be a wrong person, wrong seat. It also can be. There's a lot on that person and we need to like deploy or clarify to make it easier. So Dana, let's talk real life. I know you have some offices. I got some offices.   The Dental A Team (17:42) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (17:44) Let's talk about   like how, what does it look like when it's doing it well? ⁓ How does it feel for offices? Like, let's just kind of go through that.   The Dental A Team (17:52) Yeah, I think the biggest word that comes to mind when offices do this really, really well is just freeing, right? To have that trust in team, to know that you're going to give them something and that like you also have something in place that's going to show you that they are continuously doing it without having to track them down every day, without having to add it to your calendar. It just creates so much balance in a team and it just creates this freeing   sort of like innate trust amongst each other that like, yeah, we're gonna be able to keep a pulse on it. We're gonna check it for sure, right? We're going to trust and verify, but we've built in all of these pieces and getting to this point, right? It's not without a lot of work, right? And a lot of digging in together as a team and saying like, hey, we want more accountability. We want more responsibility. We want these pieces. We want the office to be successful. And I think once an office has it, it truly, truly is.   balancing, its alignment, and it's like freedom.   The Dental A Team (18:54) Mm-hmm. And I think for me, I feel often like I'll speak to the leader side. I sometimes like I'm the monkey who's got my hand in the trap holding on to the nuts so hard and trying to like get free and I can't and all I need to do is let go. And I think that there's a surrendering, there's a grace there's, ⁓ but I do also believe that teams rise to the level you believe they're capable of. And so if I'm sitting here like, they're going to let me down. We, we find what we focus on. And so.   Why don't I look to see how are they winning and what are the gaps and do we have a clear KPI where everybody knows like this is my number. I can't freaking wait Dana. I worked on it last night. I'm super jazzed. It's going to be a good time. But like even helping our consultants know like we've evolved. So what is it that like we expect our clients to be getting in the first 90 days, 180 days, 365 days like Dana, when you first started with me, I was like, good luck, go out there, do something fun.   But as we've gotten bigger and as we've evolved and we've evolved and we've attracted different clients, that needs to evolve. So what do your dental hygienists need to do? And what do your dental assistants need to do to win? And what does your front office, what does winning look like and making it so simple? So we have our top level of this is our number of accountability. This is what winning looks like. Then below that we have tasks of all the different tasks that are there. And what are the core processes? Do we have those documented and dialed in?   This is an evolution of business, but this really is like how you're able to delegate through role clarity. And like you said, Dana, there's freedom, there's alignment. Going through it, keep saying, at first I said, I feel like I'm an orange being squozed, Jason. I feel like we're trying to make oranges. And I was like, actually, I lied. feel like I'm an olive being pressed right now. We're not getting a whole squeeze out of this. It's like a drop by drop by drop. But I think if you can see the end result.   and you have a coach or a guide or someone who's been through it with you, I think it makes it so much easier. And Dana, I know you've got a client right now that you've been pushing on this. This client, I love so much. But just walk us through like a little bit of a glimpse in like, and of course, change of details so people can't figure out exactly what client it is. We'll peel back, we'll give you a couple, we'll mash them together. But like peel back how this doctor went from where they were to where they are today and what that looks like for this doctor.   The Dental A Team (21:07) Yeah, I think this is a doctor that just went through a practice transition where they took over a practice and you know, I think a lot of times when that happens, it's like you do want to be involved, you want to feel like you know every piece, you've got your hand in every piece, you're making all of the decisions. And then there comes a point in time where I usually say it's like the like six month year mark, where you realize like, crud, I can't continue to do this and not feel burnt out. So it's just been really fun to see them find the right people we   The Dental A Team (21:25) Thank you.   Yeah.   100 %   The Dental A Team (21:37) worked this entire last year on stabilizing team, finding the right people, finding good people, not rushing those decisions. And then when we realized they weren't the best people, right, making those decisions quickly too, because that can be stressful for everyone. And so it has been really fun that now that there are right people in right seats, like   being able to trust people to make decisions, being able to say, no, that's somebody like my office manager can answer that pushing team members to go to leads and something as simple as I use this as an example, they locks had to be changed at the office, right? A lock broke. And so all the locks had to be changed. And this doctor was just going through a lot personally and was out and the OM just made the decision called the locksmith, chose the locks, had them all replaced, like covered, like paid the bill all   The Dental A Team (22:12) Thank   The Dental A Team (22:26) of things. And I cannot even tell you just like how grateful how amazing it felt. ⁓ And just how it like opened the window of you know what? Yeah, when I let people make decisions when I let them do the things that I know I can trust them to do what a weight it takes off even something like that small.   The Dental A Team (22:47) That's.   The Dental A Team (22:48) And ⁓ I just remember on our call about that, it was just like a light bulb went off and it was like, the more and more I can do this, the better things are going to be. And everything worked out. Everything was fine. Was it maybe the exact lock like that he would have chosen? Maybe not. But at the end of the day, the building's secure, everything was handled and he didn't have to do it. He didn't have to come in on his day off, didn't have to do it. And it was just a really cool epiphany to see after the   last year that he's been through.   The Dental A Team (23:19) That's amazing, Dana. And I think like, as you say that it's crazy because I can coach this and then living in it. It's such a funny zone. Like I feel annoyed. Like I said before, it's like, can see that I'm throwing a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it, but I see it. And I think being aware of it is number one. And number two, I think it's really, ⁓ for me, at least, and again, my team listening will know I'm not perfect at this. So like, this is an evolution of Cure. And I'm not here to say like, I'm great at this today. It's an evolution. ⁓   And I think again, it's from founder, right? A founder or a new owner, like you got to do it all. You really do. And then it's like, my gosh, this got too big for me. Like I can't do it all. I'm up at two in the morning. I'm going to bed at 10 PM. Like this is not sustainable. And also for teams it's not, but I think it's this crazy piece. Like you said, what things do I really need to have an opinion on and what things can I be like, awesome, you did it. And like empower that team member and be so proud of them. And I think as we evolve, a lot of times we feel like   No, no, no, I need to be in control of everything. Like I really do. Like I need to pick the locks. Like that's out of budget versus I think if we can scale ourselves back and say like, that was actually awesome and kudos to them and train yourself to see how they did the right thing and how they did the best thing. And even if it's not your exact way, when you get a team that's running, they will actually be better than you will be on your own because you are evolving the whole, like the whole piece.   You as a leader need to set the vision. You need to say, here's where we're going. Here's the budgets, here's the parameters, and then truly trust your team. And I say that to myself, I say that to you, I say that to everybody listening, because I think it's a constant reminder until it becomes a habit and a personality. Like we're asking you to be like, okay, ⁓ I really love strawberries. And now I'm trying to get you to really love tomatoes. Like, they're both red. It's a different way of operating. It's a different method.   So we're gonna choose that. She's like, you have two wolves. You can feed the scarcity or the abundance. And which one am I feeding today? I'm gonna feed the one where I delegate, I trust, I empower. We have the pieces. But I also think Dana, like at the beginning, I do think some thought process behind like, let's get an accountability chart. Let's get job descriptions. Let's make sure everybody knows their KPI. And I think that sometimes that prep work is tricky. And then let's make sure we're really hiring the best people to do the job. Like...   I think there comes a space in business where at the beginning you hire and you gotta like grind it out. Like people don't know, we're trying to like make them into like, Hey Dana, welcome to being a consultant. Let's train it up versus like, Hey, we can hire consultants that have been consultants. Like there is an evolution. And I think at the beginning, yeah, rock on, you're going to be a lot more involved, but as you evolve, you're going to start to hire people that are just as good, if not better than you are and trust and let them run, ⁓ while still verifying and checking in.   You either choose to do that or you choose to hold and both are both are available, but it depends on what's your ultimate goal. And I think if you can focus on that, focus on the team you want and expect them to rise to that occasion. I watched it in organizations and I'm watching it in myself. Like truly it's amazing, right? People write C and clarity teams evolve and doctors feel a lot better. So any other thoughts, Dana? I know that was kind of a very fun, how you delegate, how you delegate it properly. And also like   how happy that doctor was like, shoot, I didn't even have to do that. That's incredible. What other things are they capable of as well? And kudos to that office manager for just like, I think like just taking the bull by the horns and be like, I'm going to do this and you're going to see that I'm awesome. And I'm going to win you over. think kudos to that office manager too.   The Dental A Team (26:47) Yeah, it was really fun to see.   The Dental A Team (26:49) Yeah. All right, Dana, as we wrap today, I think it's doctors teams like don't get stuck in the trap of not delegating. And just because it wasn't right before, let's look to see why wasn't it. Was it wrong person? Was it wrong path? Get your accountability charts in place. Get the map, get the rollout, get the KPIs, get the meeting cadences, like checking in with your leads every single week can really help get this cadence moving forward. You're not perfect. We're not looking for perfect, but we are looking for that evolvement. Not as much like sitting around your neck, but really empowering your team.   and rolling it out and continue to evolve that what you had before is not what you need today. And if you need a coach, mean, Dana does this, I do this, our team does this. This is what we live for is to make you and your practice like truly flourishing and thriving. So Dana, Dynamite Dana, thanks for being on the podcast today. I always appreciate it, you.   The Dental A Team (27:34) always a good time. Thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (27:36) Of course, and for all of you listening, reach out if we can help. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.  

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Key Performance Indicators (or KPIs)! By establishing KPIs in your practice, you find ways to remove the emotion that doesn't need to be there. Tiff and Kristy explain how KPIs drive a practice — and how to implement them if you haven't started yet. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back again today and I say we again because I've got Miss Kristy here with me. You guys know how much I love her and podcasting with her is just, I told her today, like I just, you bring a sense of calm and it's great and letting it be on a, like Thursday afternoon, this is kind of cool for me ⁓ and ending my week. I've got, you know, we've got things to do tomorrow, ending calls with this is really, really cool. So Kristy, thank you so much for being here today. How are you?   The Dental A Team (00:29) Good and you?   The Dental A Team (00:31) I'm good,   thank you. ⁓ I'm... I was gonna say that, like what the heck? I'm so glad you're here though because, you know, this time last year you were here in snow and ice and I'm so glad you're here but it is cold and I heard you guys, record these, this is January right now, it'll be released in February but it's like so cold. It's like 43 degrees in the morning here and us Arizona women are just not used to that so.   The Dental A Team (00:34) It's cold for Arizona.   The Dental A Team (01:01) I agree and there's supposed to be ice and snow coming, not for us, we get rain, thank goodness, but I'm like, that's why we live here, so we don't have to deal with ice and snow. yeah, puts a little damper on travel, so we'll see. We'll see how that goes, but I am glad that you're here. This is the time of year that everybody comes and visits. February is a massive, massive time to be in Arizona. In March, we've got spring training games going, we've got...   Waste Management Open, we've got, oh my gosh, every weekend there's a taco festival or something going on. So this is the prime time to be in Arizona. If you wanna come visit, tell us that you're coming and we'll be happy to give you some suggestions. Kristy, we talk about these a lot and I'm excited because I know you actually thrive in this world a ton. You make decisions based on these. are phenomenal at projections.   four practices and the world of KPIs, which you guys, for those of you who don't know, key performance indicators, those are the indicators within your practice that tell you how you're performing. I had years and years and years ago now, like way too long to even count, I had a manager one time and she said, Tiff, I want you to start joining the KPI meetings on Thursdays with the CPA doc and I. And I said, okay. And then I ran over to my computer and I was like, Google, what is KPI? What does KPI mean? I was like, I'll be there.   That sounds great. This is like growth for me. You're putting me in. I was like, yep, I'll be there. And then I was like, what does this mean? So if you don't know what it means, you're not using them, you are not alone. I had to Google that once upon a time. And that was before Chat GPT. I feel like I would have been so much better off if I had that to break it down for me. But alas, here we are. And Kristy, I love KPIs. I love black and white decision making. I love any opportunity we have that we can remove some emotion.   from a decision, especially in the dental industry. We have a lot of emotions in the dental industry and being able to remove those and say that yes or no something is or isn't working. And my favorite piece of that is when we do that, Kristy, I think it gives us the opportunity to tackle the system and not make it personal about the person. Like it might not be that you suck.   it's that the system's not working or we're not using it correctly. And if that's the case, I'm fine. We start using it correctly or we alter it. But I think, Kristy, it makes me feel a lot better about accountability and about KPIs and just about leading teams when it's less about a feeling and a person and more about the system. So I'm excited. Kristy, tell me, why do you love KPIs?   The Dental A Team (03:41) Yeah, for the same reason, Tip, because so many times we see people focused on the wrong thing. And when you really dial into the metrics, they start to tell a story, right? And sometimes even metrics can look a little bit deceiving, but that's why I like to say the numbers start to tell a story. And then we get to dig into it and figure out the story. So, you know, just in saying that, I think if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I would be some kind of detective. And I mean,   The Dental A Team (04:09) I think   you would too.   The Dental A Team (04:10) Maybe that's why it's so exciting for me, but like, and it's truth, right? The numbers don't lie. And so a lot of times we have misperceptions on things and that's the human aspect. So to give grace on us, and I also feel like what we measure expands, it grows, right? And so if we're focused on the wrong thing, what do we get more of? And so,   The Dental A Team (04:33) Mm, true.   The Dental A Team (04:40) I just think it's the fastest way to make improvements. And it's kind of funny Tiff, because in other things we do, if we want to lift weights or we want to lose weight, what do we do? Get on the scale or we're like, we lift 50 pounds. my gosh, I added another weight. We measure it really well, but in dentistry it's like taboo. ⁓ we can't do it. Like it's so bizarre, right? But I just, again, it's the true measure. We talked about this.   The Dental A Team (05:02) I agree.   The Dental A Team (05:07) on a different podcast of winning. It truly lets us know if we're winning or losing, and maybe we'll focus on the wrong thing, right? I know you've heard it a zillion times. Doctors come on, need more new patients. I need more new patients. I need more new patients. And we look at their outstanding treatment list and it's like $3 million. And I'm like, do you really know what you mean? Right? So again, sometimes it lets us win faster because we can breathe direct and focus on   The Dental A Team (05:26) You   for sure.   The Dental A Team (05:37) what's really gonna get us there.   The Dental A Team (05:40) Yeah, I love that you said that. I love the idea of focusing on the wrong thing because I think we do that a lot. focus on the negative, right? We're like, what was our attrition rate instead of what's our new patient and our active patient count? Are those growing? Because if our new patient count and our active patient count are growing, attrition's fine. But if we're looking at attrition rate, we're like, how many are we losing? We're grasping. It's a different kind of energy and that will grow. So if you're looking at it,   you want your attrition to grow, then keep watching it. If you want your active patient count to grow, keep watching it. And if it's not growing, then you tackle the systems and assume attrition is happening. So I love that you said that because it broke it down, I hope for everyone, a little bit differently there. And our podcast today is How KPIs Drive a Practice. And I think in that simple statement and those two minutes you were just talking, you just broke it down, like verbatim on how it drives a practice because   what you focus on will grow no matter what. you're right, it's so everything in our life, we count everything. Like it's just human nature to count and track everything we do. We track our money, we track our expenses, we track our weights, we track our weight, we track everything that we do, we track our gas mileage. know, my sister's always like, ah, I got 16 gallons or whatever. I need to go get the best gas price. And I'm like, girl, I don't.   I don't know what she's like, what is your car get? I'm like, I have no idea. But there's, know, she's tracking that. But like, then we go into a dental office, it's like, don't talk numbers. Don't talk numbers. Don't track it. Because that's going to make somebody feel bad. It's like, no, we're going to track it. We're going to see that we're winning. And we're going to feel really, really good. Like my sister, sometimes she comes home and she's like, ah, I guess mileage was down. Sometimes she comes home and she's like, guess what? Simple. But that's how simple it can be.   doesn't have to be astronomical, but those small wins add up to something astronomical. And I have had so many clients that, I've had clients that have purchased practices, they're like, all right, when are we starting marketing? I'm like, well, what do you mean? You've got, like, what's your patient count? What's your active patient count? And then what's the total patient count of that practice? Because you have, every patient right now is a new patient. Starting marketing,   is a wild use of your money. Let's internal market, let's get your exams better. There's so many different avenues that we think are just the norm, so we jump on board with them. But then when we pull and extract those actual KPIs, we can find the root of what we need and the root of any problems that there might be, any systems that need to be revamped. So I love that, because that's how you're driving success, by watching the KPIs.   Kristy, and you've got, I hope everyone knows, I don't say it every time, but Kristy's done so much in her dental career and held so many titles and she's consulted for far longer than she's even been a presence here at the Dental A Team. We're so grateful for her. Kristy, in all of your experience, what do you feel are the easiest KPIs to start tracking if we're not tracking any? And then what are the most valuable KPIs maybe that people don't think of?   The Dental A Team (08:53) Ooh, that's deep. Obviously, I think we have to look at it as like two different forks in the road, right? Because so many times we hear the practice of a million dollars and then we hear the practice of six million. And I think doctors, you guys get all ramped up and think if I'm the million dollar guy, why am I the six million dollar guy? And I'm thinking, wait, wait, you don't necessarily want to be that guy. You're actually more profitable than, you know.   The Dental A Team (08:55) I I like that one.   Correct.   The Dental A Team (09:22) So it's not just what's happening in the practice, but also how profitable you are, right? And truly us here at the Dental A Team, we're looking to make sure you're hitting that profitability because that's where the true freedom is. But with that being said, the biggest KPIs out of the gate is what do I need to hit every month to be profitable? And then I measure my production, net production.   and collections. And ⁓ I am going to throw new patients in there, but in a different way, because doctors do want new patients and a lot of times they're getting them. But don't just look at how many I'm getting. Look at how many are reappointing. ⁓ you know, it's one thing that you're getting them and you might be doing limited, limited and letting them go out the back door. So again, look at those, but also   put more weight on how many are getting reappointed. And then ⁓ I also like doctors to look at diagnostics, dollars and diagnostic or sorry, acceptance dollars and percentage. ⁓ They go hand in hand. It can't just be percentage of acceptance because maybe I'm not accepting enough to even get to that goal. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:31) case acceptance.   Yes,   yes, I love those. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:46) And lastly,   probably in that tip would be your reappointment rate. How many are we reappointing? Because keep those patients of yours. Don't have to spend so many external dollars to gain more because if we just keep what we have and too often we look at how many people are sitting in our inactive pile or we don't look at it and you have a whole nother practice sitting there that you could tap into.   The Dental A Team (11:13) Yeah, I love that. I love what you said about the case acceptance dollars, the diagnostics and the case acceptance dollars. I too have doctors, I love having them ⁓ track their diagnosis and then their dollars. Number one, I hated being a treatment coordinator that had no control over how much was being diagnosed and only initially when I was treatment coordinator, were really only looking at case acceptance, which is very popular.   So case acceptance, case acceptance, and then they're like on your neck and that call these three people, why didn't these, like call the people and like I have called all the people. I can't, and we have so many clients, right, that the TC's are like I've called all the people, Tiff, can't, Kristy, I can't call anymore. Cool, it might not be in the case acceptance. Sometimes it's in the diagnosis and then to loop back to your new patient statement, all of those go so hand in hand and this is why, ⁓ heaven help me, this is why.   things like our scorecards, clients of Dental A Team that talk about the scorecard. This is why the scorecard is so important because you can look at a dental analytics screen and it's choppy, all over the place. The scorecard brings it together so that you can see what's affecting something else because to your point of the new patients, I had a practice near and dear to my heart. He hit his massive goal this year and I'm so proud of him. We worked really hard on, it was, you know,   Timelined out for five years and he hit it literally two weeks before his deadline, his date. One of the things that was holding his practice back was the new patients. He needed more new patients, needed more new patients, so his marketing company is like, all right, we're gonna ramp up new patients. And then all of a sudden we've gotten new patients, but it's like, we're not growing. There's nothing on the schedule, what's happening? And so I said, okay, what kind of new patients? And we had so many emergency, limited, transient, going through town, looking for an emergency.   He was doing a lot of same day dentistry, but not getting things booked on the schedule and not really adding to his patient count, because there wasn't reappointments happening. When we dialed that in, we found that and I was like, here's the key, switched his marketing, his new patients went up,   Then we focused in on his case acceptance. And then like you said, with the dollars, we're seeing, are they accepting fillings?   Are they accepting crowns? Are we getting the near cases? Like what is the case acceptance percentage is cool, but what are we actually, what's the procedure that's being the dollar amount and is there a ceiling maybe in our treatment planning, either back office, front office, wherever it is, is there a ceiling that our system needs to be able to help us overcome in diagnosing a certain dollar amount or treatment planning a certain dollar amount?   The Dental A Team (14:03) Yeah, I love that you say that, And as the TC, that's the one that gets me because so many doctors go back up there or come to us and say, they're just not closing it. And I always tell my practices, case acceptance is a team sport. And literally, it starts from before they even call the office. Like everything you're doing is contributing to their trust. And so ⁓ truly, docs,   I know you don't want to hear this, but it's your job to get them to yes with treatment and ⁓ financial coordinators get them to yes financially. So some of them can work heroics and they do, but it is totally a team sport. So going back to the diagnostics too, you asked a tool that I use ⁓ that maybe isn't so looked at. And I would say print your procedure count report yearly and just take a look, you know?   Are you doing four surface fillings? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but is it aligning with your philosophy? And are you giving patients the choice for long-term care? Because sometime that probably four surface filling is going to turn into something, you know? And let your patients decide. Let them decide.   The Dental A Team (15:18) Yeah.   Yes, I love that I have worked with many practices that they do give the options, but they assume that their patient base wants something specifically or can only afford something specifically. So they may give the options, but they kind of talk them into starting with something and started just leaving it on the table and saying what, if this were your mouth and roles were reversed, that we often say,   this were your mom, if this were your sister, if this were your brother. But I like to think, what if we were in different seats and the patient or the dentist, you were sitting in that chair, what would you want someone to tell you? Because you might even still err on the side of like, mom, when it happens, we'll fix it, but like, let's just do this patch for now, right? Because I don't, we don't want to get you numb. Like you might still err on that side for a family member, the, know, quote unquote conservative, but if you were sitting in that chair,   what would you want the dentist to say to you? And I think that makes a massive difference. And that is like your detectiveness, right? That's your detectiveness, but it works and it's what practices need sometimes. And I think, Kristy, part of those pieces, and you showed me your AR thing yesterday and how you diagnose that. And sometimes we do have to go to those spaces.   The Dental A Team (16:17) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (16:40) because you can't see it in the other areas. like, gosh, something is here, but that's why you look at those KPIs that are gonna drive success. And then when one of them isn't working, when one of them isn't hitting the metric that you want it to, you dive deeper. You're not just going to say, okay, every month let's pull the procedure code report. You're gonna say, if case acceptance, if we're not hitting production, case acceptance isn't working or diagnosis isn't working, now we're gonna dig a little bit deeper.   I think what tends to happen is we either go surface and we're like, everything's fine and we ignore issues or we go so deep that we're in the weeds and nobody has time to see the patients. We're just pulling reports all the time.   The Dental A Team (17:20) Yeah, it's so funny. So much psychology goes into it, right? Like our doctors get so upset in dentistry. I remember like doctors thinking, well, we're the only ones that do free consults. Medical doctors don't do free consults. Why do we do it in dentistry? You know what I mean? But yet we also complain, my schooling costs so much and they don't want to pay me what I'm worth, you know? And it's like,   Almost everything, it's funny when we get into it and I work with clients, I'm like, we kind of caused it. We taught them. How many times do we answer the phone and we go, do you have insurance before we even know their name? You know? So it's funny. It's like an oxymoron in a way, but I love that you brought that up because many times we do it to ourselves.   The Dental A Team (18:10) Yeah, yeah, we just spin our wheels on something, to find it and trying to get it right in an industry where nobody's taught how to do this stuff. guys, doctors learned how to be dentists and that's it. It's a rare occasion that you come across anybody who is taught how to run a dental practice. And dental is different than medical. So even healthcare professionals, right? People who have a degree in healthcare management, it's different.   This is why we're here. This is what we do. This is this is years and years. mean, across the whole Dental A Team team, like we should count that up. That'd be a lot of years. I don't even know anymore. We've grown to so many consultants. I don't even want to try to count that right now. We'll do that later. We'll ask Josh to do that for us. But regardless, there's so much wealth of knowledge here in.   The Dental A Team (18:57) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:04) ensuring that and we've done such a great job at finding the solutions and the systems to at least get templates and things started to customize for practices. I think that's just an immense value that consultants like the Dental A Team bring is that space of uniformity. these are things that we've seen work. Let's start here and then let's layer on top for you and let's adjust it for your practice and your team.   and those KPIs that drive success, pretty universal. And you said, you know, the common ones, production collections, new patients, diagnosis, case acceptance, and I loved your reappointment rate for new patients and just in general, those tell you the stories. And then from there, we dig and dive deeper. So I love it, Kristy. Thank you so much. think if I were to give an action item, it would be to revamp.   your KPIs if you're digging too deep and grab some new ones if you're not going deep enough, if that makes sense. So, Kristy, anything else you'd like to add?   The Dental A Team (20:09) No, I love it. The only thing I would say, Tip, I know you have the saying down better, but use, love the numbers, right? Don't use them as sticks, is that?   The Dental A Team (20:17) Yeah.   Yes,   yes, numbers are here to guide us. They're stars to guide us. They're not sticks to beat ourselves up with. Yeah, years and years of presenting with Kiera. Awesome, well you guys, go check your KPIs, go check your scorecards. If you're a Dental A Team client, you should have a scorecard. If you don't, get after your consultant. Everyone has scorecards this year, so we're good to go. But if you don't know how to use it or if you're confused by it,   The Dental A Team (20:26) There you go. Love it. Yeah. Love it. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:48) or if you're not a Dental A Team client yet and you want information on it, please by all means reach out. We're here to help you. We wanna make sure that everyone is successful, whether you are a one-on-one client with us, a group client, or just here as a listener, we wanna make sure that you are all successful. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, and you guys, we'll catch you next time. Thanks so much, thanks, Kristy.   The Dental A Team (21:08) Thank you.  

Tracy Brower, PhD, MM, MCRW is a sociologist studying community, happiness, and the future of work and life. She is VP of Workplace Insights at Steelcase and a Senior Contributor for Forbes and Fast Company. Mike Petrusky asks Tracy about her brand new book, "Critical Connections: Build Relationships and Harness the Power of Community in Work and Life", in which she delivers inspiration and pragmatic new insights on community and connection. They discuss how organizations can help to foster connections among employees, which can lead to higher levels of well-being and performance. Research shows that 50% of people globally are lonely with record levels of depression and anxiety, so Tracy believes the workplace can provide a sense of stability and identity for the workforce. Proximity and presence can increase performance and knowledge sharing among employees, and leaders should be intentional about creating cultures that support connections and community, so Mike and Tracy share some inspiration that will encourage you to be a Workplace Innovator in your organization! Connect with Tracy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracybrowerphd/ Order Tracy's new book "Critical Connections": https://tracybrower.com/9218-2/ Learn more about Steelcase: https://www.steelcase.com/ Watch the podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSkmmkVFvM4H3pwnlU2AuqynuRDpvnh4J Discover free resources and explore past interviews at: https://eptura.com/discover-more/podcasts/workplace-innovator/ Learn more about Eptura™: https://eptura.com/ Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikepetrusky/  

Courage is not loud. Sometimes it is a 13-year-old girl standing in a courtroom, promising to defend dignity no matter the cost.  Noura Ghazi's life was shaped by detention, disappearance, and resistance long before she became a human rights lawyer. Growing up in Damascus with a father repeatedly imprisoned for political opposition, she chose early to confront injustice through law rather than violence. From defending political prisoners during the Syrian revolution to marrying her husband inside a prison and later founding No Photo Zone, Noura has built a life rooted in resilience, civil rights advocacy, and unwavering belief in human dignity.  Now living in France as a political refugee, she continues her work supporting families of detainees, survivors of torture, and the disappeared. Her story is not simply about survival. It is about choosing mindset over fear, purpose over despair, and love even in the shadow of loss. This conversation invites reflection on what it means to remain Unstoppable when freedom, justice, and even safety are uncertain.  Highlights:  00:07:06 – A defining childhood moment reveals how a confrontation in a Syrian courtroom shaped Noura's lifelong commitment to defending political prisoners.  00:12:51 – The unpredictable nature of Syria's exceptional courts exposes how justice without standards creates generational instability and fear.  00:17:32 – The emotional aftermath of her father's release illustrates how imprisonment reshapes entire families, not just the person detained.  00:23:47 – Noura's pursuit of human rights education demonstrates how intentional learning becomes an act of resistance in restrictive systems.  00:32:10 – The early days of the Syrian revolution clarify how violence escalates when peaceful protest is met with force.  00:37:27 – Her marriage inside a prison and the global advocacy campaign that followed reflect how personal love can fuel public courage.  00:50:59 – A candid reflection on PTSD reveals how trauma can coexist with purpose and even deepen empathy for others.  About the Guest:   Noura Ghazi's life has been shaped by a single, unwavering mission: to defend dignity, freedom, and justice in the face of dictatorship. Born in Damascus into a family deeply rooted in political resistance, she witnessed firsthand the cost of speaking out when her father was detained, tortured, and disappeared multiple times. That lived experience became her calling. Since 2004, she has defended political prisoners before Syria's Supreme Security State Court, and when the Syrian revolution began in 2011, she fully committed herself to supporting detainees and the families of the disappeared. Even after her husband, activist Bassel Khartabil Safadi, was detained, disappeared, and ultimately executed, she continued her advocacy with extraordinary resolve.  Forced into exile in 2018 after repeated threats and arrest warrants, Noura founded NoPhotoZone to provide legal aid, psychological support, and international advocacy for victims of detention, torture, enforced disappearance, and displacement across Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey. Her mission is not only to seek justice for the imprisoned and the missing, but to restore agency and hope to families living in uncertainty and trauma. Recognized globally for her courage and leadership, Noura remains committed to amplifying the voices of the silenced and ensuring that even in the darkest systems, human rights and human dignity are never forgotten.  https://nouraghazi.org/   https://nophotozone.org/   Book – Waiting by Noura Ghazi - https://www.lulu.com/shop/noura-ghazi-safadi/waiting/paperback/product-1jz2kz2j.html?page=1&pageSize=4   About the Host:  Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.  Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.  https://michaelhingson.com   https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/   https://twitter.com/mhingson   https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson   https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/  Thanks for listening!  Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page.  Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!  Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can follow the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.  Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you are enjoying the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Michael Hingson  00:09 Well, welcome everyone to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Nora Ghazi, who lives in, I believe, France right now. She was born in Syria. She'll tell us about that, and she has had an interesting life, and I would say, a life that has had lots of challenges and some treachery along the way. But we'll get to all of that, and I will leave it to her to describe most of that, but I just want to tell you all we really appreciate you being here and hope you enjoy the episode. So Nora, how are you? Noura Ghazi  00:49 Thank you, Michael, for having me in this great broadcast, doing well. Michael Hingson  00:57 Well, there you go. Well, why don't we start? I love to start this way. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Nora, growing up and so on, where you grew up, what anything you want to talk about, regarding being a younger person and all of that and and however we want to proceed, we'll go from there. Noura Ghazi  01:17 Okay, so since I was a child, my childhood wasn't like normal, like all the kids at my age, because my father was like a leader in opposition party against the previous Syrian regime. Michael Hingson  01:34 So you were born in Syria? Noura Ghazi  01:37 Yes, I work in Damascus. I'm from Damascus, but I have some like multiple origin that I'm proud of. But yes, I'm from Damascus. So since I was five years old, my father was disappeared and because he was wanted with other, like fellows at his party and other, let's say aliens, parties of opposition against the previous regime. So he disappeared for six years, then he was detained and transferred to what was named the supreme security state court. So it was during my adultness, let's say so since I was a child like I had at that time, only one sister, which is one year younger than me, we were moving a lot. We had no place to live. So my mother used to take us each few days to stay at some, someone place, let's say so it caused to us like changing schools all, all the time, which means changing friends. So it was very weird. And at that age, okay, I I knew the words of like cause, the words of leader or dictatorship. I used to say these words, but without knowing what does it mean. Then, when my father detained, it was his ninth detention. Actually, my mother was pregnant with my brother, so my brother was born while my father was in prison. And while he was in prison, the last time he disappeared for one year, three months, he was in like a kind of isolation in security facility. Then he was referred to this court. So in one of the sessions of the trials, I had a fight with the officer who, like who was leading the patrol that bring my father and other prisoners of conscience. So at the end of this fight, I promised my father and the officer that, okay, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer and defend political prisoners, which I did at the end. Michael Hingson  04:05 So what? What was the officer doing? He was taking people to the court. Noura Ghazi  04:12 Yes, because Okay, so there is many kind of prisons now. They became like, more familiar to like public opinion because of, like 15 years of violence in Syria. So there was, like the the central civil prison in Damascus, which we call ADRA prison, and we have said, NIA jail, military prison. So those two prisons, they were like, holding detainees in them. So they they used to bring detainees to the court in busses, like a kind of military busses, with patrol of like civil police and military police. So the officer was like. Heading the patrol that was bringing my fathers from other prison. Michael Hingson  05:05 So you, so you, what was the fight about with the officer and your father and so on? What? How? Well, yeah, what was the fight? Noura Ghazi  05:16 It's very good question, although at that time, it was a very like scary situation, but now I laughed a lot about it. Okay, so they used to to catch all the prisoners in one chain with the handcuffs. So we used to come to hug and kiss my father before entering the court. So I was doing what I used to do during the trials, or just upon the trials, and then one of the policemen, like pushed me away. So I got nervous, and my father got nervous. So the officer provoked me. He was like a kind of insulting that my father is a detainee, and he is like he's coming to this court. So I, like I replied that I'm proud of my father and his friends what they are doing. So he somehow, he threats me to detain me like my father, and at that time, I was very angry, and I curse the father Assad just in on the like in the door, at the door of the court, and there was people and and Like all the the policemen, like they were just pointing their weapon to me, and there was some moments of silence. Then they took all the detainees into the court. So at this moment, while I'm entering the court behind them, I said, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer to defend political prisoners. Michael Hingson  07:02 What did the officers say to that? Noura Ghazi  07:06 Because they used to look to us as because we are. We were against father Assad and the dictatorship, so they used to see us, even if we are kids, as enemies. Michael Hingson  07:22 Yeah, so the officer but, but he didn't detain you. I was Noura Ghazi  07:27 only 13 years, yeah, okay, they used to to arrest the kids, but they didn't. Michael Hingson  07:37 So did the officer react to your comment? You're going to grow up to become a civil rights lawyer? Noura Ghazi  07:43 He was shocked, was he? But I don't know if he knew that I become a human yes, there at the end, yeah. Michael Hingson  07:54 And meanwhile, what did your father do or say? Noura Ghazi  07:58 He was shocked also, but he was very proud, and until now, he like every time, because I'm also like, very close to to his friends who I used to visit in prison. Then I become a human rights lawyer, and I was the youngest lawyer in Syria. I was only 22 years old when I started to practice law. So during the the revolution in Syria, which started in 2011 some of his friends were detained, and I was their lawyer also. So I'm very close to them. So until now, they remember this story and laugh about it, because no one could curse or say anything not good about father Assad or or the family, even in secret. So it's still, like, very funny, and I'm still like, stuck somehow in, like, in this career and the kind of activism I'm doing, because just I got angry of the officer 30 years ago. So at this, at that moment, I've decided what I will be in the future. I'm just doing it well. Michael Hingson  09:20 From everything I've read, it sounds like you do a good job. Noura Ghazi  09:25 I cannot say it's a job, because usually you you do a job, you get paid for your job, you go at a certain time and come back at a certain time. You do certain tasks. But for me, it's like a continuing fight, non violent fight, of course, for dignity, for freedom, for justice, right, for reveal the truth of those who were disappeared and got missing. So yes, until now, I'm doing this, so I don't have that. Are the luxury to to be paid all the time, or to be to have weekends or to work until like certain hour at night. I cannot say I'm enjoying it, but this is the reason why I'm still alive, because I have a motive to help and support other people who are victims to dictatorship and violence. Michael Hingson  10:25 So your father went into court and what happened? Noura Ghazi  10:31 He was sentenced. At the end, he was sentenced to three years in prison. And it's a funny story, another funny story, actually, because, like the other latines at that at that trial, like it was only my father and other two prisoners who sent who were sentenced to three years in prison, while other people, the minimum was seven years in Prison, until 15 years in prison. So my mother and us, we felt like we are embarrassed and shy because, okay, our father will will be released like in few months, but other prisoners will stay much longer. So it's something very embarrassing to our friends who whom their fathers got sentenced to like more. Michael Hingson  11:30 Did you ever find out why it was only three years? Noura Ghazi  11:33 We don't know because it's an exceptional court, so it's up to the judge and the judge at that time, like it's it's very similar to what is happening now and what happened after 2011 so it's a kind of continuing reality in in Syria since like 63 which was the first time my father was detained. It was in 63 just after the what they called the eighth March revolution. So my father was only 11 years old when he was detained the first time because he participated in a protest. So it's up to the judge. It's not like a real court with like the the fair trial standards. So it's it's only once you know, the judge said the sentences for each one. So two prisoners got confused. They couldn't differentiate like Which sentence to whom, so they asked like again, so he forgot, so he said them again in different way. So it's something like, very spontaneously, yeah, very just moody, not any standard. Michael Hingson  12:51 Well, so Did your father then serve the three years and was released. Or what happened? Noura Ghazi  12:58 He was released on the day that he should be released, he disappeared for few days. We didn't know what happened. Then he was released. Finally he came. We used to live with my my grandma, so I was the one who opened the door, and I saw just my father. So we we knew later that okay, he was moved again to a security facility because he refused to sign a paper that say that he will not practice any oppositional action against the authority. So he refused, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:43 Well, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's a continuing story, what happened to him after that. So he came home, Noura Ghazi  13:53 he came out to my grandma. It was a big surprise, like full of joy, but full of tears as well. Michael Hingson  14:01 And you're you were 16 now, right? Noura Ghazi  14:04 I was when he was raised. I was 15, yeah, okay, yeah. And my sister was 14. My brother was two years and a half, so for him, okay, the father is this person that we visit behind bars every Monday, not this one who stay with us. So for him, it was weird. For my brother, he was very like little kid to understand. Then my father went to to see his parents as well. Then we came back to our apartment that we couldn't live more than few months because my father was detained. So at this night, everything was very, very, very new, like because before the three years he he was disappeared for six years, so there was. Nine years. We don't live with my father, so my brother used to sleep just next to my mom, actually my sister and me, but okay, we were like a teenager, so it's okay. So my brother couldn't sleep. Because why he keep, he kept asking why my father is sleeping with us while he's not with his friend at that place. And he was traumatized for many days. But usually when, like a political prisoner released, usually, like, we have a kind of two, three weeks of people visiting the family to say, Okay, it's it's good. We're happy for you that he was released. So the first two, three weeks were full of people and like, social events, etc. Then the, the real problem started. So my father studied law, but he was fired from university for security reasons at the the last year of his study, and as he was sentenced so he couldn't work, my mother used to work, and so like suddenly he started to feel that okay, He's not able to work. He's not able to fulfill the needs of his family. He's not able to spend on the family. The problems between him and my mother started. We couldn't as like my sister and me as teenagers. We couldn't really accept him. We couldn't see that. He's the same person that we used to visit in prison. He was very friendly. We used to talk about everything in life, including the very personal things that usually daughters don't speak with fathers about it. But then he became a father, which we we we weren't used to it, and he was shocked also. So I can say that this, this situation, at least on emotional and psychological level, for me, it lasted for 15 years. I couldn't accept him very well, even my my sister and and the brother and it happens to all like prisoners, political prisoners, especially who spent long time in prison. Michael Hingson  17:32 So now is your father and well, are your father and your mother still alive? Or are they around? Noura Ghazi  17:41 They are still alive. They are still in Damascus, Michael Hingson  17:44 and they're still in Damascus. Yes, how is I guess I'll just ask it now, how is Syria different today than it was in the Assad regime, Noura Ghazi  17:56 like most of Syrians, and now we should differentiate about what Syrians will talk. We're talking so like those Syrians, like the majority of Syrians, and I'm meaning here, I'm sorry, I shouldn't be very direct. Now, the Arab Sunni Syrians, most of them, they are very happy. They are calling what happened in in last eight December, that it's the deliberation of Syria, but for other minorities, like religious or ethnic minorities, of course, it's almost the same. For me, I feel that okay, we have the same dictatorship now, the same corruption, the same of like lack of freedom of expression. But the the added that we have now is that we have Islamist who control Syria. We have extremists who control Syria. They intervene even in personal freedoms. They they are like, like, they are committing crimes against minorities, like it started last March, against alawed. It started last July, against Druze. Now it is starting against Kurdish, and unfortunately, the international community turning like an attorney, like, okay. They are okay with with it, because they want, like their own interest, their own benefits. They have another crisis in the world to take care and to think about, not Syria. So the most important for the international community is to have a stable situation in Syria, to be like, like, no kind of like, no fight zone in the Middle East, and they don't care about Syrian people. And this is very frustrating for those who. Who have the same beliefs that I have. Michael Hingson  20:04 So in a lot of ways, you're saying it hasn't, hasn't really changed, and only the, only the faces and names have changed, but not the actions or the results Noura Ghazi  20:16 the faces and names, and most important, the sects, has changed. So it was very obvious for me that most of Syrians, they don't mind to be controlled by dictator. They only mind what is the sect of this dictator? Michael Hingson  20:35 Unfortunately. Well, yeah. Well, let's go back to you. So your father was released, and you had already made your decision about what you wanted to be, what how does school work over there? Did you go to a, what we would call a high school? Or how does all that work? Noura Ghazi  20:58 Yeah, high school, I was among the like the student who got the highest score in Damascus. I was the fourth one on Damascus when I finished. We call it back like Baccalaureate in Syria, which came from French. And I studied law, and I was also very, like, really hard, hard study person. So I was graduated in four years. Actually, nobody in Syria used to finish studying law in Damascus University only in four years. Like some people stayed more than 10 years because it it was very difficult, and it's different than like law college or law school or university of law, depending on the country, than other countries, because we only like study law. Theoretically, we don't have any practice because we were 1000s of students, it was the like the maximum university that include students. And I registered immediately in the Bar Association in Damascus, and I started because we have, like, a kind, it's, it's similar to stage for two years, like under the supervision of another lawyer who was my uncle at the first and then we we have to choose a topic in certain domain of flow, to write a kind of book which is like, it's similar to thesis, to apply it, to approve it, and then to have the kind of interactive examination, then we have the the final graduated. So all of them to be like a practice lawyer. It's around six years, a little bit more. So my specialist was in criminal law, and my thesis, what about what we call the the impossible crime. It was complicated topic. I have to say that in Syria at that time, I'm talking about end of of 90s, beginning of 2000 so we don't have any kind of study related to human rights. We weren't allowed even to spell this word like human rights. So then in 2005 and 2006 I started to study human rights under international laws related to human rights in Jordan. So I became like a kind of certified human rights defenders and the trainer also, Michael Hingson  23:47 okay, and so you said you started practice and you finished school when you started practice, when you were 22 Yes, okay, I'm curious what, what were things like after September 11, of course, you know, we had the terrorist attacks and so on. Did any of that affect anything over in Syria, where you lived, Noura Ghazi  24:15 of course, like, we stayed talking, watching the news for like four months, like until now we remember, like September 11. But you know, I now when I remember, it was a shock, usually for the Arab world, or Arab people like America is against the Arab world. So everything happened against it was like, this was like, let's say 2030, years ago. Everything that caused any harm to America, they celebrate it. So that. At that time, I was 19 years old, and okay, it's the first time we we hear that a person who was terrorist do like is doing this kind in in us, which is like a miracle for us. But then I started to to think, okay, they it's not an army. They are. There are civilians. Those civilians could be against the the policies of the US government. They could be like, This is not a kind of fight for freedom or for rights or for any like, really, like, fair cause. This is a terrorist action against civilians. And then we started, I'm very lucky because I'm from very educated family. So we started to think about, like, okay, bin Laden. And like, which we have a president from Qaeda now in Syria, like, you can imagine how I feel now. Like, I Okay, all the world is against al Qaeda, and they celebrated that the President in Syria is from al Qaeda. So it's, it's very it's, it's, really, it's not logical at all. But the funniest thing that happened, because, like, the name of Usama bin Laden, was keeping on every like, every one tongue. So I have my my oldest uncle. His name is Usama, and he lives in Germany for 40, more than 40 years, actually. So my brother was a child, and he started to cry, and he came to my mother and asked her, I'm afraid, is my uncle the same Usama? So we were laughing all, and we said, No, it's another Usama. This is the Usama. This is Osama bin Laden, who is like from is like a terrorist group, etc. But like this unfortunate incident started to bring to my mind some like the concept of non violence, the concept of that, okay, no civilian in any place in the world should be harmed for any reason, Because we never been told this in Syria and mostly in most of of countries like the word fight is very linked to armed fights, which I totally disagree with. Michael Hingson  27:56 Well, the when people ask me about September 11 and and so on. One of the things that I say is this wasn't a religious war. This wasn't a religious attack. This was terrorist. This was, I put it in terms of of Americans. These were thugs who decided they wanted to have their way with people. But this is not the way the Muslim the Islamic religion is there is peaceful and peace loving as as anyone, and we really need to understand that. And I realize that there are a lot of people in this country who don't really understand all about that, and they don't understand that. In reality, there's a lot of peace loving people in the Middle East, but hopefully we'll be able to educate people over time, and that's one of the reasons I tell the story that I do, because I do believe that what happened is 19 people attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and so on, and they don't represent the the typical viewpoint of most people, religious wise in the Middle East. And I can understand why a lot of people think that the United States doesn't like Arabs, and I'm not sure that that's totally true, but I can appreciate what you're saying. Noura Ghazi  29:28 Yeah, I'm talking about specific communities actually, who they are, like totally against Israel, and they believe that you us is supporting Israel. So that's that's why they have their like this like attitude towards us and or like that US is trying to invest all the resources in the in the Middle East, etc. But what you were mentioning. Is really very important, because those 19 persons, they like kind of they, they cause the very bad reputation for for Muslims, for Middle Eastern because for for for other people from other countries, other culture or other religion, they will not understand that, okay, that, as you said, they don't represent Muslims. And in all religions, we have the extremist and we have those peaceful persons who keep their their religion as a kind of direct connection with God. They respect everyone, and normally in in in Syria, most of of the population like this, but now having a terrorist as a President, I'm not able to believe how there is a lot of Syrians that support him. Mm, hmm. Because when Al Qaeda started in Syria at the beginning, under the name of japet Al Nusra, then, which with July, who is now Ahmad Al shara, was the leader, and he's the leader of the country now most of Syrians, especially the the the Sunni Syrians, were against this, like terrorist groups, because the most harm they cause is for for Sunnis in Syria, because all other minorities, they will think about every Sunni that they, He or she, like, believe and behave like those, which is totally not true. Michael Hingson  31:47 Yeah, I hear you. Well, so September 11 happened, and then eventually you started doing criminal law. And if we go forward to what 2011 with the Syrian revolution? Yeah, and so what was, what was that revolution about? Noura Ghazi  32:10 It was okay. It started as a reaction against detaining kids from school. Okay, of course, this like the Syrian people, including me, we were very affected and inspired about what was happening in Egypt and Tunisia. But okay, so the security arrested and tortured those kids in their south of Syria. So people came out in demonstration to ask for their freedom and the security attack those protesters with, like, with weapons, so couple of persons died. So then it was, it started to be like a kind of revolution, let's say, yeah, the the problem for me, for lot of people like me, that the the previous Syrian regime was very violent against protesters and the previous president, Bashar Assad, he refused to listen to to to those people, he started to, like dissipated from the reality. So this like, much violence that was against us, like, I remember during some protest, there was not like, small weapon toward us. There was a tank that bombing us as protesters, peaceful, non violent, non armed protesters. So this violence led to another violence, like a kind of reaction by those who defected from the army, etc. And here, my father used to say, when the opposition started to to carry weapon in a country that, like the majority of it, is from certain religion, this could lead to a kind of Jihadist methodology. And this is what happened. So for for people like us, which we are very little comparing of like, the other beliefs of other people like we were, we started to be against the Syrian regime, then against the jihadist groups, then against that, like a kind of international, certain International, or, let's say original intervention, like Iran and Russia. So we were fighting everywhere, and no one. No one wanted us because those like educated, secular, non violent people, they. Form a kind of danger for every one of those parties. But what happened with me is that I met my late husband during a revolution at the very early of 2011 and having the relationship with me was my own revolution. So I was living on parallel like two revolution, a personal one and the public one. And then, like he was detained just two weeks before our our wedding. He was disappeared, actually, for nine months, then he was moved to the same prison that my father was in, to the central prison in Damascus that we got married in prison by coincidence. I don't know if coincidence is the right word in this situation, but my late husband was a very well known programmer and activist. So we were he was kind of, let's say, famous, and I was a lawyer and lawyer that defend human rights defenders and political prisoners. And the husband was detained, so I used to visit him in prison and visit other prisoners that I was their lawyers. And because my like, we have this personal aspect that okay, the couple that got married in prison and that, okay, I'm activist as a lawyer, and my late husband was a well known programmer. So we created a very huge campaign, a global campaign. So we invested this campaign to like, to shed the light about detention, torture, disappearance, exceptional courts, then, like also summary execution in Syria. So then, after almost three years of visiting him regularly, he disappeared again in 2015 and in 2017 I knew that he was sentenced to death, and I knew the exact date of his execution, just in 2018 which was two days ago. It was October 5. So this is what happened then. I had to leave Syria in 2018 so I left to Lebanon. Michael Hingson  37:27 So you left Syria and went to Lebanon? Noura Ghazi  37:33 Yes, the The plan was to stay only six months in Lebanon because I was wanted and I was threatened like I lived a terrible life, really, like lot of Syrians who were activists also, but the plan was that I will stay in Lebanon for six months, then I will leave to to UK because I had A scholarship to get a master in international law. But only two months after I left to Lebanon, I decided to stay in Lebanon to establish the organization that I'm I'm leading until now, which was a project between my late husband and me. Its name is no photo zone, so it was a very big decision, but I'm not regrets. Michael Hingson  38:23 You, you practice criminal law, you practiced human rights, you visited your your fiance, as it were, and then, well, then your husband in prison and so on. Wasn't all of that pretty risky for you? Noura Ghazi  38:42 Yes, very risky. I, I lived in under like, different kind of risk. Like, okay, I have the risk that, okay, I'm, I'm doing my activism against the previous regime publicly because I also, I was co founder of the First Family or victim Association in Syria families for freedom. So we, we were, like, doing a kind of advocacy in Europe, and I used to come back to Syria, so I was under this risk, but also I was under the risk of the like, going to prison, because the way to prison and the prison itself were under bombing. It was in like a point that separate the opposition militias and the regime militias. So they were bombing each other and bombing the prison and bombing the way to prison. So for three years, and specifically for like, in, let's say, 2014 specifically, I was among, like, I was almost the only lawyer that visited the prison, and I, I didn't mind this. I faced death more than 100 time, only on the way to prison, two times the person next to me in the like transportation. It's a kind of small bus. He died and fell down on me, but I had a strong belief that I will not die, Michael Hingson  40:21 and then what? Why do you think that they never detained you or or put you in prison? Do you have any thoughts? Noura Ghazi  40:29 I had many arrests weren't against me, but each time there was something that solve it somehow. So the first couple of Earths weren't actually when, when my late husband was detained, he he made a kind of deal with them that, okay, he will give all the information, everything about his activism in return. They, they canceled the arrest warrant against me. Then literally, until now, I don't know how it was solved. Like I, I had to sleep in garden with my cats for many nights. I i spent couple of months that I cannot go to any like to family, be house or to friend house, because I will cause problem for them, my my parents, my brother and sister, and even, like my sister, ex, until like just three months before the fall of the Syrian regime, they were under like, investigation By the security, lot of harassment against them so, but I don't know, like, I'm, I'm survive for a reason that I don't really realize how, Michael Hingson  41:52 wow, it, it's, it certainly is pretty amazing. Did you ever write a book or anything about all of this, Noura Ghazi  42:02 I used to write, always the only book like, let's say, literature or emotional book. It was about love in prison. Its name is waiting. And I wrote this book in English and basil. My late husband translated it. Sorry. I wrote it in Arabic, and Basset translated it into English in prison. So it was a process of smuggling the poems in Arabic and smuggling the them in English, again out of the prison. And we published the book online just after basil disappearance in 2015 then we created the the hard copies, and I did the signature in in Beirut in, like, early 2018 but like, it's, it's online, and it's a very, like light book, let's say very romantic. It's about love in prison. I'm really keen to write again, like maybe a kind of self narrative or about the stories that I lived and i i I heard during my my journey. Unfortunately, like to write needs like this a little stable situation, but I did write many like legal or human rights book or like guides or studies, etc. Michael Hingson  43:34 Now is waiting still available online? Noura Ghazi  43:37 Yes, it's still available online. Michael Hingson  43:40 Okay? It would be great if you could, if you have a picture of the book cover, if you could send that to me, because I'd like to put that in the notes. I would appreciate it if you would, okay, for sure. But anyway, so the the company you founded, what is it called Noura Ghazi  44:02 it's a non government, a non profit organization. Its name is no photo zone. Michael Hingson  44:07 And how did you come up with that name? Noura Ghazi  44:12 It was Vasil who come up with this name, because our main focus is on prisoners of conscious and disappeared. So for him, it was that okay, those places that they put disappeared in them. They are they. There is no cameras to show the others what is happening. So we should be the the like in the place of cameras to tell the world what is happening. So that's why no photos on me, like, means that prisons or like unofficial detention centers, because they're it's an all photo zone, right? Michael Hingson  44:54 And no photo zone is is still operating today. Noura Ghazi  44:58 It's still operating. We are extending our work, although, like we have lots of financial challenges because of, like, funds issues, but for us, the main issue, we provide legal services to victims of torture, detention, disappearance and their families. So we operate in Syria, Lebanon and Turkey. We are a French woman led organization, but we have registration in Turkey and Syria, and like in seven years now, almost seven years, we could provide our services to more than 3000 families who most of them are women, and they are responsible about kids who they don't have fathers. So we defend political prisoners. We search the disappeared. We provide the legal services related to personal and civil status. We provided the services related to identification documents, because it's a very big issue in Syria. Beside we provide rehabilitation, like full rehabilitation programs for survivors of detention or torture, and also advocacy. Of course, it's a very important part of our our work, even with the lack of fund, we've decided in the team, because most of the team, or all the team, they they were themselves victims of detention, or family members of victims, even the non Syrian because we have many non Syrian member in the team. So for us, it's a cause. It's not like a work that we're doing and getting paid. So we're, we're suffering this this year with the fund issues, because there is a lot of change related to the world and Syrian issues, which affected the fund policies. So hopefully we'll be, we'll be fine next year, hopefully, and we're trying to survive with our beneficiaries this year, Michael Hingson  47:02 yeah, well, you, you started receiving, and I assume no photo zone started receiving awards, and eventually you moved out of Lebanon. Tell me more about all of that. Noura Ghazi  47:16 During my journey, I I got many international recognition or a word, including two by Amnesty International. But after almost two years, like just after covid, like the start of covid, I was thinking that I should have another residence permit in another country because, like, it became very difficult for Syrians to get a residence in Lebanon. So I I moved to Turkey, and I was between Lebanon and Turkey. Then I got a call from the French Embassy in Turkey telling me that there is a new kind of a word, which is Marianne award, or Marianne program, that initiated by the French president. And they it's for human rights defenders across the world, and they will give this award for 15 human rights defender from 15 country. And I was listening, I thought they want me to nominate someone. Then they told me that the French government are honored to choose you as a Syrian human rights defender. So it was a program for six months, so I moved to Paris with my cat and dog. Then they extended the program and to become nine months. And at the almost at the end of the program, the both of Lebanese and Turkish authorities refused to renew my residence permit, so I had to stay in France to apply for asylum and a political refugee currently. Michael Hingson  49:10 And so you're in France. Are you still in Paris? Noura Ghazi  49:13 I'm still yes in Paris. I learned French very fast, like in four months. Okay, I'm not perfect, but I learned French. Michael Hingson  49:25 So what did your dog and cat think about all that? Sorry, what did your dog and cat think about moving to France? Noura Ghazi  49:33 They are French, actually, originally, they are friends. Michael Hingson  49:36 Oh, there you go. Noura Ghazi  49:38 My, my poor dog had like he he was English educated, so we used to communicate in English. Then when I was still in Lebanon, I thought, okay, a lot of Syrians are coming to my place, and they don't speak English, so I have to teach him Arabic. Then we moved to Turkish. So I had to teach him Turkish. Then we came to. France. So now my dog understand more than four languages, Michael Hingson  50:06 good for him, and and, of course, your cat is really the boss of the whole thing, right? Noura Ghazi  50:12 Of course, she is like, the center of the universe, Michael Hingson  50:16 yeah, yeah, just ask her. She'll tell you. And she's Noura Ghazi  50:20 very white, so she is 14 years. Oh, it's old, yes. Michael Hingson  50:29 Well, I have a cat we rescued in 2015 we think she was five then. So we think that my cat is 15 going on 16. So, and she moves around and does very well. Noura Ghazi  50:46 Yeah, my cat as well. Michael Hingson  50:49 Yeah. Well, that's the way it should be. So with all the things that you've been dealing with and all the stress, have you had? Noura Ghazi  50:59 PTSD, yes, I started, of course, like it's the minimum, actually, I have PTSD and the TSD, and I started to feel, or let's say, I could know that the what is happening with me is PTSD two years ago. I before, like, couple of months before, I started to feel like something unusual in my body, in my mind. At the beginning, we thought there is a problem in the brain. Then the psychologist and psychiatrist said that it's a huge level of PTSD, which is like the minimum, and like, we should start the journey of of treatment, which is like the behavior treatment and medical treatment as well. Like, some people could stay 10 years. Some people need to go to hospital. It's not the best thing, but sometimes I feel I'm grateful that I'm having PTSD because I'm able to deal with people who are in the same situation. I could feel them, understand them, so I could help them more, because I understand and as a human rights defender and like victim of lot of kind of violations, so I'm very aware about the like, let's call it the first aid, the psychological first aid support. And this is helpful somehow. Okay, I'm suffering, but this suffering is useful for others Michael Hingson  52:47 well and clearly, you are at a point where you can talk about it, which says a lot, because you're able to deal with it well enough to be able to talk about it, which I think is probably pretty important, don't you think? Noura Ghazi  53:03 Yeah, actually, the last at the first time I talked about it very publicly in a conference in Stockholm, it was last October, and then I thought it's important to talk about it. And I'm also thinking to do something more about PTSD, especially the PTSD related to to prisons, torture, etc, this kind of violations, because sharing experience is very important. So I'm still thinking about a kind of certain way to to like, to spread my experience with PTSD, especially that I have lot of changes in in my life recently, because I got married again, and even the the good incident that people who have PTSD, even if they have, like good incident, but it cause a kind of escalation with PTSD, Michael Hingson  54:00 yeah, but you got married again, so you have somebody you can talk with. Noura Ghazi  54:06 Yes, I got married five months ago. The most important that I could fall in love again. So I met my husband in in Paris. He's a Lebanese artist who live in Paris. And yeah, I have, I have a family now, like we have now three cats and a dog and us as couple. But it's very new for me, like this kind of marriage, that a marriage which I live with a partner, because the marriage I used to is that visit the husband in prison. I'm getting used to it. Michael Hingson  54:43 And just as always, the cat runs everything, right? Yes, of course, of course. So tell me about the freedom prize in Normandy. Noura Ghazi  54:55 Oh, it was like one of the best thing I had in my life. I. Was nominated for the freedom prize, which is launched by usually they are like young people who who nominate the the nominees for this prize, but it's launched by the government of Normandy region in France and the International Institute for Human Rights and peace. So among hundreds of files and, like many kind of round of, like short listing, there was me, a Belarusian activist who is detained, and a Palestinian photographer. So like, just knowing that I was nominated among more than 700 person was a privilege for me. The winner was the Palestinian photographer, but it was the first time they invite the other nominee to the celebration, which was on the same date of like liberating Normandy region during the Second World War. So I chose, I thought for my for couple of days about what I will wear, because I need to deliver a message. So I, I I came up with an idea about a white dress with 101 names in blue. Those names are for disappeared and detainees in Syria. So like there was, there was seven persons who worked on this dress, and I had the chance to wear it and to deliver my message and to give a speech in a very important day that even like those fighters during the Second World War who are still alive, they they came from us. They came from lot of countries. I had the privilege to see them directly, to touch them, to tell them thank you, and to deliver my message in front of an audience of 4500 persons. And it's like I love this dress, and like this event was one of the best thing I had in my life. Michael Hingson  57:21 Do you have a picture of you in the dress? Yes, I would think you do. Well, if you want, we'd love to put that in the show notes as well, especially because you're honoring all those people with the names and so on. Kind of cool. Well, okay, so, so Syria, you're, you're saying, in a lot of ways, hasn't, hasn't really changed a whole lot. It's, it's still a lot of dictatorship oriented kinds of things, and they discriminate against certain sex and and so on. And that's extremely unfortunate, because I don't think that that's the impression that people have over here, Noura Ghazi  58:02 exactly I had a chance to visit Syria, a kind of exceptional visit by the French government, because, as political refugees were not allowed to visit our country of origin. And of course, like after eight years, like out of Syria after six years without seeing my family. Of course, I was very happy, but I was very traumatized, and I I came back to Paris in in July 21 and since that time, I feel I'm not the same person before going to Syria. I'm full of frustration. I feel that, okay, I just wasted 14 years of my life for nothing. But hopefully I'm I'm trying to get better because okay, I know, like much of human rights violations mean that my kind of work and activism is more needed, yeah, Michael Hingson  59:03 so you'll so you'll continue to speak out and and fight for freedom. Noura Ghazi  59:10 Yes, I continue, and I will continue fighting for freedom, for dignity, for justice, for civil rights, and also raising awareness about PTSD and how we could invest even our pain for the sake of helping others. Michael Hingson  59:29 Well, I want to tell you that it's been an honor to have you on the podcast, and I am so glad we we got a chance to talk and to do this because having met you previously, in our introductory conversation, it was very clear that there was a story that needed to be told, and I hope that a lot of people will take an interest, and that it will will allow what you do to continue to grow, if people would like to reach out to you. And and help or learn more. How do they do that? Noura Ghazi  1:00:05 We you have the the link of my website that people could connect me, because it includes my my email, my personal email, and I always reply. So I'm happy to to talk with the to contact with people, and it also include all the all my social media, Michael Hingson  1:00:23 right? What? What's the website for? No photo zone. Noura Ghazi  1:00:27 It's no photo zone.org. No photo zone.org. Michael Hingson  1:00:30 I thought it was, but I just wanted you to say it. I wanted you to say it. Noura Ghazi  1:00:35 It's included in my website. Michael Hingson  1:00:37 Yeah, I've got it all and and it will all be in the show notes, but I just thought I would get you to say no photo zone.org Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a wonderful time to have a chance to talk, and I appreciate you taking the time to, I hope, educate lots of people. So thank you very much for doing that, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching. We'd love you to give us a five star rating. Give us a review. We really appreciate ratings and reviews. So wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast, please give us a five star rating. Please review the podcast for us. We value that, and I know that Nora will will appreciate that as well. Also, if you if you know any guests, and Nora you as well, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, we would really appreciate it. If you would let us know you can reach me. At Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts about the podcast. So Nora, very much my I want to thank you again. This has been great. Thank you very much for being here. Noura Ghazi  1:01:56 Thank you Michael, and thank you for those who are listening, and we're still in touch.

Allen, Rosemary, and Yolanda, joined by Morten Handberg from Wind Power LAB, recap WOMA 2026 live from Melbourne. The crew discusses leading edge erosion challenges unique to Australia, the frustration operators face getting data from full service agreements, and the push for better documentation during project handovers. Plus the birds and bats management debate, why several operators said they’d choose smaller glass fiber blades over bigger carbon fiber ones, and what topics WOMA 2027 should tackle next year. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! [00:00:00] The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast brought to you by Strike Tape protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit strike tape.com and now your hosts. Welcome to the Uptime Winner Energy podcast. I’m your host, Alan Hall. I’m here with Yolanda Pone, Rosemary Barnes, and the Blade Whisperer, Morton Hamburg. And we’re all in Melbourne at the Pullman on the park. We just finished up Woma 2026. Massive event. Over 200 people, two days, and a ton of knowledge. Rosemary, what did you think? Yeah, I mean it was a, a really good event. It was really nice ’cause we had event organization, um, taken care of by an external company this time. So that saved us some headaches, I think. Um. But yeah, it was, it was really good. It was different than last year, and I think next year will be different again because yeah, we don’t need to talk about the same topics every single year. But, um, yeah, I got really great [00:01:00] feedback. So that’s shows we’re doing something right? Yeah, a lot of the, the sessions were based upon feedback from Australian industry and, uh, so we did AI rotating bits, the, the drive train blades. Uh, we had a. Master class on lightning to start off. Uh, a number of discussions about BOP and electrical, BOP. All those were really good. Mm-hmm. Uh, the, the content was there, the expertise was there. We had worldwide representation. Morton, you, you talked about blades a good bit and what the Danish and Worldwide experience was. You know, talked about the American experience on Blades. That opened up a lot of discussions because I’m never really sure where Australia is in the, uh, operations side, because a lot of it is full service agreements still. But it does seem like from last year to this year. There’s more onboarding of the technical expertise internally at the operators. Martin, [00:02:00] you saw, uh, a good bit of it. This is your first time mm-hmm. At this conference. What were your impressions of the, the content and the approach, which is a little bit different than any other conference? I see an industry that really wants to learn, uh, Australia, they really want to learn how to do this. Uh, and they’re willing to listen to us, uh, whether you live in Australia, in the US or in Europe. You know, they want to lean on our experiences, but they wanna, you know, they want to take it out to their wind farms and they ga then gain their own knowledge with it, which I think is really amicable. You know, something that, you know, we should actually try and think about how we can copy that in Europe and the US. Because they, they are, they’re listening to us and they’re taking in our input, and then they try and go out. They go out and then they, they try and implement it. Um, so I think really that is something, uh, I’ve learned, you know, and, and really, um, yeah, really impressed by, from this conference. Yeah. Yolanda, you were on several panels over the, the two days. What were your impressions of the conference and what were your thoughts [00:03:00] on the Australia marketplace? I think the conference itself is very refreshing or I think we all feel that way being on the, on the circuit sometimes going on a lot of different conferences. It was really sweet to see everybody be very collaborative, as Morton was saying. Um, and it was, it was just really great about everybody. Yes, they were really willing to listen to us, but they were also really willing to share with each other, which is nice. Uh, I did hear about a few trials that we’re doing in other places. From other people, just kind of, everybody wants to learn from each other and everybody wants to, to make sure they’re in as best a spot as they can. Yeah, and the, the, probably the noisiest part of the conferences were at the coffees and the lunch. Uh, the, the collaboration was really good. A lot of noise in the hallways. Uh, just people getting together and then talking about problems, talking about solutions, trying to connect up with someone they may have seen [00:04:00]somewhere else in the part of the world that they were here. It’s a different kind of conference. And Rosemary, I know when, uh, you came up to with a suggestion like, Hey. If there’s not gonna be any sales talks, we’re not gonna sit and watch a 30 minute presentation about what you do. We’re gonna talk about solutions. That did play a a different dynamic because. It allowed people to ingest at their own rate and, and not just sit through another presentation. Yeah. It was made it more engaging, I think. Yeah, and I mean, anyway, the approach that I take for sales for my company that I think works best is not to do the hard sell. It’s to talk about smart things. Um, and if you are talking about describing a problem or a solution that somebody in the audience has that problem or solution, then they’re gonna seek you out afterwards. And so. There’s plenty of sales happening in an event like this, but you’re just not like, you know, subjecting people to sales. It’s more presenting them with the information that they need. And then I, I think also the size of the conference really [00:05:00] helps ’cause yeah, about 200 people. Any, everybody is here for the same technical kind. Content. So it’s like if you just randomly start talking to somebody while you’re waiting for a coffee or whatever, you have gonna have heaps to talk about with them, with ev every single other person there. And so I think that that’s why, yeah, there was so much talking happening and you know, we had social events, um, the first two evenings and so. Mo like I was surprised actually. So many people stayed. Most people, maybe everybody stayed for those events and so just so much talking and yeah, we did try to have quite long breaks, um, and quite a lot of them and, you know, good enough food and coffee to keep people here. And I think that that’s as important as, you know, just sitting and listening. Well, that was part of the trouble, some of the conference that you and I have been at, it’s just like six hours of sitting down listening to sort of a droning mm-hmm. Presenter trying to sell you something. Here we were. It was back and forth. A lot more panel talk with experts from around the world and then.[00:06:00] Break because you just can’t absorb all that without having a little bit of a brain rest, some coffee and just trying to get to the next session. I, I think that made it, uh, a, a, a more of a takeaway than I would say a lot of other conferences are, where there’s spender booze, and. Brochures and samples being handed out and all that. We didn’t have any of that. No vendor booze, no, uh, upfront sales going on and even into the workshop. So there was specific, uh, topics provided by people that. Provide services mostly, uh, speaking about what they do, but more on a case study, uh, side. And Rosie, you and I sat in on one that was about, uh, birds and bats, birds and bats in Australia. That one was really good. Yeah, that was great. I learned, I learned a lot. Your mind was blown, but Totally. Yeah. It is crazy how much, how much you have to manage, um, bird and wildlife deaths related to wind farms in Australia. Like compared to, I mean, ’cause you see. Dead birds all the time, right? Cars hit [00:07:00] birds, birds hit buildings, power lines kill birds, and no one cares about those birds. But if a bird is injured near a wind farm, then you know, everybody has to stop. We have to make sure that you can do a positive id. If you’re not sure, send it away for a DNA analysis. Keep the bird in a freezer for a year and make sure that it’s logged by the, you know, appropriate people. It’s, it’s really a lot. And I mean, on the one hand, like I’m a real bird lover, so I am, I’m glad that birds are being taken seriously, but on the other hand, I. I think that it is maybe a little bit over the top, like I don’t see extra birds being saved because of that level of, of watching throughout the entire life of the wind farm. It feels more like something for the pre-study and the first couple of years of operation, and then you can chill after that if everything’s under control. But I, I guess it’s quite a political issue because people do. Do worry about, about beds and bats? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I thought the output of that was more technology, a little or a little more technology. Not a lot of technology in today’s world [00:08:00] because we could definitely monitor for where birds are and where bats are and, uh, you know. Slow down the turbines or whatever we’re gonna do. Yeah. And they are doing that in, in sites where there is a problem. But, um, yeah, the sites we’re talking about with that monitoring, that’s not sites that have a big, big problem at sites that are just Yeah, a few, a few birds dying every year. Um, yeah. So it’s interesting. And some of the blade issues in Australia, or a little unique, I thought, uh, the leading edge erosion. Being a big one. Uh, I’ve seen a lot of leading edge erosion over the last couple of weeks from Australia. It is Texas Times two in some cases. And, uh, the discussion that was had about leading edge erosion, we had ETT junker from Stack Raft and, and video form all the way from Sweden, uh, talking to us live, which was really nice actually. Uh, the, the amount of knowledge that the Global Blade group. Brought to the discussion and just [00:09:00] opening up some eyes about what matters in leading edge erosion. It’s not so much the leading edge erosion in terms of a EP, although there is some a EP loss. It’s more about structural damage and if you let the structure go too far. And Martin, you’ve seen a lot of this, and I think we had a discussion about this on the podcast of, Hey, pay attention to the structural damage. Yeah, that’s where, that’s where your money is. I mean, if you go, if you get into structural damage, then your repair costs and your downtime will multiply. That is just a known fact. So it’s really about keeping it, uh, coding related because then you can, you can, you can move really fast. You can get it the blade up to speed and you won’t have the same problems. You won’t have to spend so much time rebuilding the blade. So that’s really what you need to get to. I do think that one of the things that might stand out in Australia that we’re going to learn about. Is the effect of hail, because we talked a lot about it in Europe, that, you know, what is the effect of, of hail on leading edge erosion? We’ve never really been able to nail it down, but down here I heard from an, [00:10:00] from an operator that they, they, uh, referenced mangoes this year in terms of hail size. It was, it was, it was incredible. So if you think about that hitting a leading edge, then, uh, well maybe we don’t really need to, we don’t really get to the point where, so coding related, maybe we will be structural from the beginning, but. Then at least it can be less a structural. Um, but that also means that we need to think differently in terms of leading edge, uh, protection and what kinds of solutions that are there. Maybe some of the traditional ones we have in Europe, maybe they just don’t work, want, they, they won’t work in some part of Australia. Australia is so big, so we can’t just say. Northern Territory is the same as as, uh, uh, um, yeah. Victoria or uh, or Queensland. Or Queensland or West Australia. I think that what we’re probably going to learn is that there will be different solutions fitting different parts of Australia, and that will be one of the key challenges. Um, yeah. And Blades in Australia sometimes do. Arrive without leading edge protection from the OEMs. [00:11:00] Yeah, I’m sure some of the sites that I’ve been reviewing recently that the, the asset manager swears it’s got leading edge protection and even I saw some blades on the ground and. I don’t, I don’t see any leading edge protection. I can’t feel any leading edge protection. Like maybe it’s a magical one that’s, you know, invisible and, um, yeah, it doesn’t even feel different, but I suspect that some people are getting blades that should have been protected that aren’t. Um, so why? Yeah, it’s interesting. I think before we, we rule it out. Then there are some coatings that really look like the original coating. Mm. So we, we, I know that for some of the European base that what they come out of a factory, you can’t really see the difference, but they’re multilayer coating, uh, on the blades. What you can do is that you can check your, uh, your rotor certificate sometimes will be there. You can check your, uh, your blade sheet, uh, that you get from manufacturer. If you get it. Um, if you get it, then it will, it will be there. But, um, yeah, I, I mean, it can be difficult to say, to see from the outset and there’s no [00:12:00]documentation then. Yeah, I mean. If I can’t see any leading edge erosion protection, and I don’t know if it’s there or not, I don’t think I will go so far and then start installing something on something that is essentially a new blade. I would probably still put it into operation because most LEP products that can be installed up tower. So I don’t think that that necessarily is, is something we should, shouldn’t still start doing just because we suspect there isn’t the LEP. But one thing that I think is gonna be really good is, um, you know, after the sessions and you know, I’ve been talking a lot. With my clients about, um, leading edge erosion. People are now aware that it’s coming. I think the most important thing is to plan for it. It’s not right to get to the point where you’ve got half a dozen blades with, you know, just the full leading edge, just fully missing holes through your laminate, and then your rest of your blades have all got laminate damage. That’s not the time to start thinking about it because one, it’s a lot more expensive for each repair than it would’ve been, but also. No one’s got the budget to, to get through all of that in one season. So I do really [00:13:00] like that, you know, some of the sites that have been operating for five years or so are starting to see pitting. They can start to plan that into their budget now and have a strategy for how they’re going to approach it. Um, yeah. And hopefully avoid getting over to the point where they’ve missing just the full leading edge of some of their blades. Yeah. But to Morton’s earlier point, I think it’s also important for people to stop the damage once it happens too. If, if it’s something that. You get a site or for what, whatever reason, half of your site does look like terrible and there’s holes in the blade and stuff. You need to, you need to patch it up in some sort of way and not just wait for the perfect product to come along to, to help you with that. Some of the hot topics this week were the handover. From, uh, development into production and the lack of documentation during the transfer. Uh, the discussion from Tilt was that you need to make sure it is all there, uh, because once you sign off. You probably can’t go back and get it. And [00:14:00] some of the frustration around that and the, the amount of data flow from the full service provider to the operator seemed to be a, a really hot topic. And, and, uh, we did a little, uh, surveyed a about that. Just the amount of, um, I don’t know how to describe it. I mean, it was bordering on anger maybe is a way. Describe it. Uh, that they feel that operators feel like they don’t have enough insight to run the turbines and the operations as well as they can, and that they should have more insight into what they have operating and why it is not operat. A certain way or where did the blades come from? Are there issues with those blades? Just the transparency WA was lacking. And we had Dan Meyer, who is from the States, he’s from Colorado, he was an xge person talking about contracts, uh, the turbine supply agreement and what should be in there, the full service [00:15:00] agreement, what should be in there. Those are very interesting. I thought a lot of, uh, operators are very attentive to that, just to give themselves an advantage of what you can. Put on paper to help yourself out and what you should think about. And if you have a existing wind farm from a certain OEM and you’re gonna buy another wind farm from ’em, you ought to be taking the lessons learned. And I, I thought that was a, a very important discussion. The second one was on repairs. And what you see from the field, and I know Yolanda’s been looking at a lot of repairs. Well, all of you have been looking at repairs in Australia. What’s your feeling on sort of the repairs and the quality of repairs and the amount of data that comes along with it? Are we at a place that we should be, or do we need a little more detail as to what’s happening out there? It’s one of the big challenges with the full service agreements is that, you know, if everything’s running smoothly, then repairs are getting done, but the information isn’t. Usually getting passed on. And so it’s seems fine and it seems like really good actually. Probably if you’re an [00:16:00] asset manager and everything’s just being repaired without you ever knowing about it, perfect. But then at some point when something does happen, you’ve got no history and especially like even before handover. You need to know all of the repairs that have happened for, you know, for or exchanges for any components because you know, you’re worried about, um, serial defects, for example. You need every single one. ’cause the threshold is quite high to, you know, ever reach a serial defect. So you wanna know if there were five before there was a handover. Include that in your population. Um, yeah, so that’s probably the biggest problem with repairs is that they’re just not being. Um, the reports aren’t being handed over. You know, one of the things that Jeremy Hanks from C-I-C-N-D-T, and he’s an NDT expert and has, has seen about everything was saying, is that you really need to understand what’s happening deep inside the blade, particularly for inserts or, uh, at the root, uh, even up in, with some, some Cory interactions happening or splicing that It’s hard to [00:17:00] see that hard to just take a drone inspection and go, okay, I know what’s happening. You need a little more technology in there at times, especially if you have a serial defect. Why do you have a serial defect? Do you need to be, uh, uh, scanning the, the blade a little more deeply, which hasn’t really happened too much in Australia, and I think there’s some issues I’ve seen where it may come into use. Yeah, I think it, it, it’ll be coming soon. I know some people are bringing stuff in. I’ve got emails sitting in my inbox I need to chase up, but I’m, I’m really going to, to get more into that. Yeah. And John Zalar brought up a very similar, uh, note during his presentation. Go visit your turbines. Yeah, several people said that. Um, actually Liz said that too. Love it. And, um, let’s this, yeah, you just gotta go have a look. Oh, Barend, I think said bar said it too. Go on site. Have a look at the lunchroom. If the lunch room’s tidy, then you know, win turbine’s gonna be tidy too. And I don’t know about that ’cause I’ve seen some tidy lunchroom that were associated with some, you know, uh, less well performing assets, but it’s, you know, it’s [00:18:00] a good start. What are we gonna hope for in 2027? What should we. Be talking about it. What do you think we’ll be talking about a year from now? Well, a few people, quite a few people mentioned to me that they were here, they’re new in the industry, and they heard this was the event to go to. Um, and so I, I was always asking them was it okay? ’cause we pitch it quite technical and I definitely don’t wanna reduce. How technical it is. One thing I thought of was maybe we start with a two to five minute introduction, maybe prerecorded about the, the topic, just to know, like for example, um, we had some sessions on rotating equipment. Um, I’m a Blades person. I don’t know that much about rotating equipment, so maybe, you know, we just explain this is where the pitch bearings are. They do this and you know, there’s the main bearing and it, you know, it does this and just a few minutes like that to orient people. Think that could be good. Last, uh, this year we did a, a masterclass on lightning, a half day masterclass. Maybe we change that topic every year. Maybe next year it’s blade design, [00:19:00] certification, manufacturing. Um, and then, you know, the next year, whatever, open to suggestions. I mean, in general, we’re open to suggestions, right? Like people write in and, and tell us what you’d wanna see. Um, absolutely. I think we could focus more on technologies might be an, an area like. It’s a bit, it’s a bit hard ’cause it gets salesy, but Yeah. I think one thing that could actually be interesting and that, uh, there was one guy came up with an older turbine on the LPS system. Mm. Where he wanted to look for a solution and some of the wind farms are getting older and it’s older technology. So maybe having some, uh, uh, some sessions on that. Because the older turbines, they are vastly different from what we, what we see in the majority with wind farms today. But the maintenance of those are just as important. And if you do that correctly, they’re much easier to lifetime extent than it will likely be for some of the nuance. But, you know, let. Knock on wood. Um, but, but I think that’s something that could be really interesting and really relevant for the industry and something [00:20:00] that we don’t talk enough about. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true because I, I’m working on a lot of old wind turbines now, and that has been, um, quite a challenge for me because they’re design and built in a way that’s quite different to when, you know, I was poking, designing and building, uh, wind turbine components. So that’s a good one. Other people mentioned end of life. Mm-hmm. Not just like end of life, like the life is over, but how do you decide when the life end of life is going to be? ’cause you know, like you have a planned life and then you might like to extend, but then you discover you’ve got a serial issue. Are you gonna fix it? Or you know, how are you gonna fix it? Those are all very interesting questions that, um, can occur. And then also, yeah, what to do with the. The stuff at the end of the Wind Farm lifetime, we could make a half day around those kinds of sessions. I think recycling could actually be good to, to also touch upon and, and I think, yeah, Australia is more on the front of that because of, of your high focus on, on nature and sustainability. So looking at, well, what do we do with these blades? Or what do we do with the towers of foundation once, uh, [00:21:00] once we do need to decommission them, you know, what is, what are we going to do in Australia about that? Or what is Australia going to do about that? But, you know, what can we bring to the, to the table that that can help drive that discussion? I think maybe too, helping people sort of templates for their formats on, on how to successfully shadow, monitor, maybe showing them a bit mute, more of, uh. Like cases and stuff, so to get them going a bit more. ’cause we heard a lot of people too say, oh, we’re, we’re teetering on whether we should self operate or whether we continue our FSA, but we, we we’re kind of, we don’t know what we’re doing. Yeah. In, in not those words. Right. But just providing a bit more of a guidance too. On that side, we say shadow monitoring and I think we all know what it means. If you’ve seen it done, if you haven’t seen it done before. It seems daunting. Mm-hmm. What do you mean shadow monitoring? You mean you got a crack into the SCADA system? Does that mean I’ve gotta, uh, put CMS out there? Do I do, do I have to be out [00:22:00] on site all the time? The answer that is no to all of those. But there are some fundamental things you do need to do to get to the shadow monitoring that feels good. And the easy one is if there’s drone inspections happening because your FSA, you find out who’s doing the drone inspections and you pay ’em for a second set of drone inspections, just so you have a validation of it, you can see it. Those are really inexpensive ways to shadow monitor. Uh, but I, I do think we say a lot of terms like that in Australia because we’ve seen it done elsewhere that. Doesn’t really translate. And I, if I, I’m always kind of looking at Rosemary, like, does it, this make sense? What I’m saying makes sense, Rosemary, because it’s hard to tell because so many operators are in sort of a building mode. I, I see it as. When I talked to them a few years ago, they’re completely FSA, they had really small staffs. Now the staffs are growing much larger, which makes me feel like they’re gonna transition out an FSA. Do we need to provide a little more, uh, insight into how that is done deeper. [00:23:00] Like, these are the tools you, you will need. This is the kind of people you need to have on staff. This is how you’re gonna organize it, and this is the re these are the resources that you should go after. Mm. Does that make a little si more sense? Yeah. That might be a good. Uh, idea for getting somebody who’s, you know, working for a company that is shadow monitoring overseas and bring them in and they can talk through what that, what that means exactly. And that goes back to the discussion we were having earlier today by having operators talk about how they’re running their operations. Mm. And I know the last year we tried to have everybody do that and, and they were standoffish. I get it. Because you don’t want to disclose things that your company doesn’t want out in public. And year two, it felt like there’s a little more. Openness about that. Yeah, there was a few people were quite open about, um, yeah, talking about challenges and some successes as well. I think we’ll have more successes next year ’cause we’ve got more, more things going on. But yeah, definitely would encourage any operators to think about what’s a you A case study that you could give about? Yeah, it could just be a problem that’s unsolved and I bet you’ll find people that wanna help you [00:24:00] solve that problem. Or it could be something that you struggled with and then you’re doing a better job and Yeah, I mean the. Some operators think that they’re in competition with each other and some think that they’re not really, and the answer is somewhere, somewhere in the middle. There are, you know, some at least small amounts of competition. But, you know, I just, I just really think that. We’re fighting against each other, trying to win within the wind industry. Then, you know, in 10, 20 years time, especially in Australia, there won’t be any new wind. It’ll just be wind and solar everywhere and, and the energy transition stalled because everyone knows that’s not gonna get us all the way to, you know, a hundred percent renewables. So, um, I do think that we need to, first of all, fight for wind energy to improve. The status quo is not good enough to take us through the next 20 years. So we do need to collaborate to get better. And then, yeah, I don’t know, once we’re, once we’re one, wind has won, then we can go back to fighting amongst ourselves, I guess. Is Australia that [00:25:00] laboratory? Yeah, I think I, I say it all the time. I think Australia is the perfect place because I, I do think we’re a little bit more naturally collaborative. For some reason, I don’t know why, it’s not really like a, a cultural thing, but seems to be the case in Australian wind. Um, and also our, our problems are harder than, uh, than what’s being faced elsewhere. I mean, America has some specific problems right now that are, you know, worse, but in general, operating environment is very harsh Here. We’re so spread out. Everything is so expensive. Cranes are so expensive. Repairs are so expensive. Spares spare. Yeah, spares are crazy expensive. You know, I look every now and then and do reports for people about, you know, what, what’s the average cost for and times for repairs and you know, you get an American values and it’s like, okay, well at a minimum times by five Australia and you know, so. It, there’s a lot more bang for buck. And the other thing is we just do not have enough, um, enough people, enough. Uh, we’ve got some really smart people. We need a lot more [00:26:00] people that are as smart as that. And you can’t just get that immediately. Like there has been a lot of good transfer over from related industries. A lot of people that spoke so that, you know, they used to work for thermal power plants and, um, railway, a guy that spoke to a guy had come in from railway. Um. That’s, that’s really good. But it will take some years to get them up to speed. And so in the meantime, we just need to use technology as much as we can to be able to, you know, make the people that good people that we do have, you know, make them go a lot further, um, increase what they can do. ’cause yeah, I don’t think there’s a single, um, asset owner where they couldn’t, you know, double the number of asset managers they had and, you know, ev everyone could use twice as many I think. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think something that we really focused on this year is kind of removing the stones that are in people’s path or like helping at least like to, to say like, don’t trip over there. Don’t trip over here. And I think part of that, like, like you mentioned, is that. [00:27:00] The, the collaborative manner that everyone seemed to have and just, I think 50% of our time that we were in those rooms was just people asking questions to experts, to anybody they really wanted to. Um, and it, it just, everybody getting the same answers, which is really just a really different way to, to do things, I think. But more than, I mean, we, we we’re still. We’re still struggling with quality in Australia. That’s still a major issue on, on a lot of the components. So until we have that solved, we don’t really know how much of an influence the other factors they really have because it just overshadows everything. And yes, it will be accelerated by extreme weather conditions, but. What will, how will it work if, if the components are actually fit, uh, fit for purpose in the sense that we don’t have wrinkles in the laminates, that we don’t have, uh, bond lines that are detaching. Mm-hmm. Maybe some of it is because of, uh, mango size hails hitting the blades. Maybe it’s because of extreme temperatures. Maybe it’s [00:28:00] because of, uh, uh, yeah. At extreme topography, you know, creating, uh, wind conditions that the blades are not designed for. We don’t really know that. We don’t really know for sure. Uh, we just assume, um, Australia has some problems with, not problems, but some challenges with remoteness. We don’t, with, uh, with getting new, new spares that much is absolutely true. We can’t do anything about that. We just have to, uh, find a way to, to mitigate that. Mm-hmm. But I think we should really be focused on getting quality, uh, getting the quality in, in order. You know, one thing that’s interesting about that, um, so yeah, Australia should be focused more on quality than anybody else, but in, in, in the industry, yeah. Uh, entire world should be more focused on quality, but also Australia. Yeah. But Australia, probably more than anyone considering how hard it is to, you know, make up for poor quality here. Um. At the same time, Australia for some reason, loves to be the first one with a new technology, loves to have the biggest [00:29:00] turbine. Um, and the, the latest thing and the newest thing, and I thought it was interesting. I mean, this was operations and maintenance, um, conference, so not really talking about new designs and manufacturing too much, but at least three or four people said, uh. Uh, I would be using less carbon fiber in blades. I would not be, not be going bigger and bigger and bigger. If I was buying turbines for a new wind farm, I would have, you know, small glass blades and just more of them. So I think that that was really interesting to hear. So many people say it, and I wasn’t even one of them, even though, you know, I would definitely. Say that. I mean, you know, in terms of business, I guess it’s really good to get a lot of, a lot of big blades, but, um, because they just, people, I don’t think people understand that, that bigger blades just have dramatically more quality problems than the smaller ones. Um, were really kind of exceeded the sweet spot for the current manufacturing methods and materials. I don’t know if you would agree, but it’s, it’s. Possible, but [00:30:00] it’s, it, you know, it’s not like a blade that’s twice as long, doesn’t have twice as many defects. It probably has a hundred times as many defects. It’s just, uh, it’s really, really challenging to make those big blades, high quality, and no one is doing it all that well right now. I would, however, I got an interesting hypothetical and they’re. Congrats to her for, for putting out that out. But there was an operator that said to me at the conference, so what would you choose hypothetically? A 70 meter glass fiber blade or a 50 meter carbon fiber blade, so a blade with carbon fiber reinforcement. And I did have to think quite a while about it because there was, it was she say, longer blades, more problems, but carbon blade. Also a lot of new problems. So, so what is it? So I, I ended up saying, well, glass fiber, I would probably go for a longer glass fiber blade, even though it will have some, some different challenges. It’s easier to repair. Yeah, that’s true. So we can overcome some of the challenges that are, we can also repair carbon. We have done it in air, air, uh, aeronautics for many, many years. But wind is a different beast because we don’t have, uh, [00:31:00] perfect laboratory conditions to repair in. So that would just be a, a really extreme challenge. So that’s, that’s why I, I would have gone for carbon if, for glass fiber, if, if I, if I could in that hypothe hypothetical. Also makes more energy, the 70 meter compared to it’s a win-win situation. Well, it’s great to see all of you. Australia. I thought it was a really good conference. And thanks to all our sponsors, uh, til being the primary sponsor for this conference. Uh, we are starting to ramp up for 2027. Hopefully all of you can attend next year. And, uh, Rosie, it’s good to see you in person. Oh, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s exciting when we are actually on the same continent. Uh, it doesn’t happen very often. And Morton, it’s great to see you too, Yolanda. I see you every day pretty much. So she’s part of our team, so I, it’s great to see you out. This is actually the first time, me and Rosie, we have seen each other. We’ve, we’ve known each other for years. Yeah. Yeah. The first time we actually, uh, been, been, yeah. Within, uh, yeah. [00:32:00] Same room. Yep. And same continent. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s been awesome. And also it’s my first time meeting Yolanda in person too. So yeah, that’s our first time. And same. So thanks so much for everybody that attended, uh, woma 2026. We’ll see you at Woma 2027 and uh, check us out next week for the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

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When your corporate job feels "secure" until it suddenly isn't, real estate can become the Plan B that turns into your best move…  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, DoorGrow founder Jason Hull sits down with John Casmon (multifamily syndicator, host of Multifamily Insights, and co-creator of the Midwest Real Estate Networking Summit) to break down how corporate professionals can transition into multifamily investing without becoming a stressed-out landlord. They dive into how John went from corporate bankruptcies to building a multifamily portfolio, what passive investors actually need to know before putting money into a deal, and why trust + clear expectations matter just as much as the numbers.  Jason and John also unpack what this means for property managers: how to align with investor goals, why the best operators project calm control (even in chaos), where syndicators hang out, and how PMs can position themselves to win more multifamily doors.    You'll Learn (00:00) Transforming Property Management: An Introduction  (00:59) John Casmon's Entrepreneurial Journey  (02:56) Transitioning to Multifamily Investing  (04:33) Understanding Investor Types and Property Management  (05:48) The Role of Property Managers  (07:49) Investor Control vs. Trust in Management  (09:33) Challenges in Property Management  (11:17) Aligning Goals with Property Managers  (14:19) The Real Product of Property Management  (17:14) Managing Investor Expectations  (19:50) Syndication: A New Avenue for Property Managers  (23:44) Legal Considerations in Syndication  (26:41) Calmness in Chaos: The Key to Success  (31:40) Partnering with Syndications  (33:54 The Role of Property Management in Syndication  (38:29) Finding Syndicators and Building Relationships  (42:24) Understanding Passive Investment in Syndication  (47:45) Identifying Your Investment Goals  (51:54) Assessing Risk in Real Estate Investments  (55:15) Choosing the Right Market for Investment  (01:00:12) The Three C's of Raising Capital Quotables "The first C is confidence. Confidence comes from preparation." "The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game."  "It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:01) All right, five, four, three, two, one. All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. And for over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses.   We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. So my guest today, I'm hanging out here with John Casman, a multifamily syndicator, host of the multifamily insights podcast and the co-creator of the Midwest real estate networking summit. And in today's episode, John's going to break down how corporate professionals can transition.   into multifamily investing, how to find the best markets, how to raise capital effectively, and what separates successful operators from everyone else. John, welcome to the DoorGrowth Show.   John Casmon (01:10) Yeah, Jason, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Love the intro, your intro, not my intro, ⁓ but excited to be here and share as much as we can on our journey to help all of your listeners reach their goals.   Jason Hull (01:22) Cool. So John, ⁓ it's great to have you. I would love for people to hear about your entrepreneurial journey. How did you get to where you are now? And then we can get into your business.   John Casmon (01:34) Well, the short answer is bankruptcy, right? I worked for a couple of different companies that went through bankruptcy and that really made me consider my other options. You know, I was at General Motors back in 2007, 2008, 2009 when we went through bankruptcy and I was there and I watched what that did to a lot of my peers. I one day in particular when we were going to have a lot of layoffs, I went to work as late as I could. But when I got there, I had a red message, a little red dial on your phone.   for anybody who's worked in corporate and remember voicemails. So I had a red dot on my phone, picked it up, pushed the play button and my heart skipped a beat because I thought maybe I was getting to the can, right? And it was actually a colleague of mine who sat kind of kitty corner in front of me and he had been let go. He, you know, was diabetic. He didn't know I was going to pay for his medication. He just was venting in his voicemail. And I just remember feeling empathy for him, but also   a sense of I just never wanted to be in that situation. So it made me really start to think about Plan B. Eventually I moved to Chicago, realized real estate was going to be that path and learned everything I could about investing. So it kind of took me down that pathway to say, you know what, I need a Plan B because no matter what you do, when you work in corporate America, you do not control your future. You know, there's politics, there's policy, there's a lot of different things involved that you do not control.   And sometimes it does just come down to someone not liking you for whatever reason, or they think you're a threat. And I didn't want to spend the rest of my career navigating those issues. So I figured I had to take more into my own hands.   Jason Hull (03:16) got it. And so you start taking things in your own hands and what was the result?   John Casmon (03:20) Yes. So we landed on multifamily investing, started with small multifamily. My first investment was a two unit building. We house hacked it, which is a common popular phrase now. But back then it wasn't quite as common. But we lived upstairs. We rented out the first floor unit and it worked great. You know, it worked so great that we went to refinance and we had created enough equity in that first investment to pull out a six figure line of credit and go out and buy another property. So.   Jason Hull (03:45) Nice.   John Casmon (03:47) That really got the ball rolling. bought a three unit building, we bought an eight unit building, and at this time I'm still working in advertising, still working in corporate America, and I enjoyed what I was doing, and I just had my second child, but the agency I was working for also went through bankruptcy right at this time. We had expanded, we were growing, and we had kind of combined with a few other agencies and kind of became this little conglomerate, and it just eroded just as quickly as it grew.   I remember again, just sitting there and I've got some real estate. I've got a little bit of cashflow, but not enough to pay all my bills. New baby. And I just realized this real estate thing is working, but the exact strategy I'm employing doesn't allow me to insulate myself from these economic changes and shifts. So I had to change my strategy and that led me to syndication. Since then, we've acquired over $150 million worth of apartments.   We've partnered with busy professionals to buy these properties and give them some passive income. And that's what we've been doing ever since.   Jason Hull (04:50) Got it. So your area of genius really is helping these people that were similar to you, they're in the corporate environment transition into being an investor in real estate.   John Casmon (05:01) Yeah, exactly. And I would say too, it doesn't have to be you're going to quit your job and do this full time. And in fact, most people don't, you know, but most people do want a little bit more control over their life. You want a little bit more flexibility. You want to earn and start building up, you know, your net worth. You want to have a little bit more liquidity. You have to look at your investments to say, what should you be doing? I think most people know that their 401k, their, you know, company issued life insurance.   probably not enough to really get you on the fast track to retirement. So what else could you do? Certainly you can invest in the stock market. Lots of folks do that. But real estate is a proven vehicle. The challenge is, I don't know anyone who really wants to be a landlord, right? ⁓ Certainly you want the benefits of real estate investing, but very few of us want to get those 2 a.m. phone calls. So the shortcut there is, ⁓ hire a property manager. Great solution. But now you have to be able to manage   property managers, right, which is this whole other business. And if you don't have enough scale, then it's hard to get that person really focused on your business. So we offer an alternative, right? You get all the benefits of real estate investing, all the ownership perks without any of the headaches of being the landlord yourself. So it really is a great marriage of being in real estate without having to do the heavy lifting yourself.   Jason Hull (06:15) Okay.   Okay, so ⁓ the target audience of this show are property managers. So if they're not gonna use property managers, then what's the alternative? How does this work?   John Casmon (06:29) Well,   first of all, what we do is not always for that individual. So I think that's the key, right? You've got to understand who you are from a psychological standpoint. So when it comes to investors, there's two types of investors. One wants control, right? They're not willing to be passive. And some people think they want to be passive until they're in a passive situation and then they're calling and they want to know why you did this and why you did that and how come you did do that. That's not a passive investor. And that's fun.   Jason Hull (06:45) Yeah.   Yeah, they're anxious. Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (06:58) And   if that's you, you should be active, right? And you should work with a property manager, but you also want to work with the property manager who is going to be right for you, right? Because sometimes that is not how they operate. So you want to understand that. And that's a process to understand who you are as an investor, what kind of investment strategy fits you and what's going to be right there. When it comes to property managers, though, I think there are a couple of things. And as a matter of fact, we just left out of meeting with   property management company yesterday. They have 2000 units. We talked about some other services that we offer. And one of things that stood out to me was just understanding some of the challenges that property managers face. And one of them is property managers are really in a position to think like everyone. They're supposed to think like an investor. They're supposed to understand maintenance and kind of the construction arm enough to understand what needs to happen at a property. But they are really little CEOs, right? Because for   Our stuff, the large apartment stuff, those are typically million dollar annual revenue businesses. And this person is in charge of that asset of that business. They are making the day to day decisions. They are the face for the residents, aka the customers of that business. They are the face and their experience with that individual is how they view that business. So it really is an important role. And if you're working with property managers, it's really important to understand how to find the right people.   to connect with them and have them represent your business, your brand, company in the right light.   Jason Hull (08:30) So now you left an open loop that I want to close. So you said there's two types of investors, those that want control and maybe should go find a property manager, you said. And then what's the other type?   John Casmon (08:34) Yeah.   The other type is those who don't want control and they trust someone else to handle that. And for them, there are a couple of different ways of investing. One is investing passively with a group like ours. The other is turnkey investing where again, you hire a property manager, but you really entrust them to manage the property. The only thing I would say for either one of those groups, myself included, is you want to trust but verify. Okay. You've got to do a lot of your due diligence upfront. You want to understand how they operate. You want to talk to   some of their other clients, some of their other investors, because you need to get a really good sense of what to expect. And a lot of people are great at selling themselves upfront, right? I can tell you everything you want to hear upfront. You want to know what is it like once you sign the paperwork? How often are we going to talk? How frequently am I going to get updates? And at what point am I able to weigh in and make decisions? Because if, if you are someone who wants to be more active or be heard, or you've got thoughts and opinions,   Jason Hull (09:18) yeah.   John Casmon (09:35) You want to make sure you have a voice in your investment. Otherwise you may get really disappointed or you may bring on someone who has a different perspective of what that relationship looks like and that never is going to work out.   Jason Hull (09:47) Yeah, there's a big challenge in the industry and that's that most property management companies suck. so most investors that have dealt with property management to some degree are they have some scar tissue, they've been burned a little bit. They've a lot of property managers that started their businesses that come to me for help to grow their business. They started because they were investor and they couldn't find anyone else to manage the property good enough. And that's why they started their business, but it can be a difficult business to run. so none of them start their business saying, I want to suck.   But that's kind of the default unless they get some really good support or figure some things out through a lot of trial and error. And so that's where DoorGrow comes in. We help them with that. But one of the things I coach my clients on a lot is that they need to shift into being daddy over these rental properties. They need to like tell the owner, hey, you need to trust me. And they need to be able to have a really effective business so that they can lean into that trust.   because a lot of people are anxious. They'll come to them with concerns, but generally if a property manager is good, they're much better at this investing stuff than most investors. And they're much better at coordinating maintenance. They're much better at handling leasing. And so when an owner tries to micromanage a property manager, it kind of doesn't make sense to hire somebody to manage your asset just so you can manage them to do the job. And so I think the secret is finding a really good property manager that you can   let go of control because you can trust them. And but yes, you need to verify that they can do the job that you need them to do. And so a good property manager will take ownership of it and they'll take control and they will, they'll display a lot of certainty and confidence in how they communicate and they won't allow you to micromanage them is what I've seen. So.   John Casmon (11:37) Yeah, Jason, and I'll add to it. There's a two way street there. And I think it's easy for people to say, ⁓ most property managers suck or they're not good or whatever. And listen, there's certainly a lot of challenges there. A lot of folks who are not living up to par to the standards. But I will go back to this. We ask property managers to do the work of generally like a CEO. Right. I mean, again, they're managing million dollar businesses in many cases, yet they don't have that training. They don't have that experience. They don't have the ability to navigate.   all of these various things. So part of what owners and investors need to also understand is that you play the role of asset manager. And that means giving clear direction of what success looks like so that that property manager has a framework to make decisions. It's not to micromanage those decisions, but to help them understand how their decisions impact the greater good. And part of that is like, again, just sitting down with annual goals. What are revenue goals? What are our goals on?   Occupancy, what are our goals on in a lot? And this may seem simple, but I promise you a lot of folks don't do this. And if you don't do that, then that property manager is going to default to, for instance, I'll give you a great example. I've got a property manager. She's awesome rock star. But she always gets nervous when occupancy is not at like 96 or 97 percent of this property. So she is, you she starts apologizing profusely and all I did this or done that and like.   Jason Hull (12:58) Yeah.   John Casmon (13:04) Occupancy is one of our KPIs for sure. It's important, but that is not the KPI. I am focused on my net operating income. And if we're going to push rents, the impact of that is you're going to have higher vacancy and she is not comfortable with that. And that's probably because she's used to working with owners who want that thing fully rented and they are comfortable having 100 % occupancy.   Jason Hull (13:13) Yeah.   Hmm.   Yeah.   John Casmon (13:33) if they're leaving 50 bucks, 75 bucks, whatever it is of rent on the table. And that's the part where you've got to really align with your vision versus their vision, because what they have in the back of their mind may not completely align with what you have. Or they have residents in their face who are coming into the office. They want something fixed. They want it done quickly. They want it done right. They want it done yesterday.   Jason Hull (13:49) Right.   .   John Casmon (13:59) So they've got that pressure of this person in their face. So they may go out there and spend the money or authorize the money to get spent. And maybe they're not picking the most cost effective measure. So you have that. And I'll give you one third one. A lot of times when you run into the flip side of that is maybe occupancy is low. They say, hey, we need to increase our marketing spend, right? We got to increase our marketing budget. know, ox is down to 88 or 90%. We got to spend more money. And we're not necessarily.   really zeroing in on what the specific issue or challenge is at that property. So for an owner, your job as an asset manager is to partner with them and to help them see what the options are, help them work through with some of those challenges and solutions are and partner with them to find success. It's not to micromanage them and tell them what to do, but it's really to understand the situation better and give them that perspective.   Jason Hull (14:49) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. think, you know, one of the things I've seen is that I've noticed a lot of property managers, they make the mistake of thinking that the goal or the product that people want to buy from them is property management. But investors don't wake up in the morning and go, man, I'm so excited to get property management today. The thing that they want. And so the way I describe it to them as they say, property management is like the flight to Hawaii. It's not Hawaii.   and you're trying to sell the flight. That's not the exciting part. You need to figure out what the investor wants, what their goal is. Where do they want to go? What's Hawaii for them, right? What's paradise? And then how do we optimize for that? And how do we help them create a path for that? Because the actual product that a property manager is selling is not what they do. It's not property management. The actual product is them. It's them and their values and their belief system and how they create trust and the team they build and the system and mechanism they build around them.   That's the actual product the property manager is selling. so a lot of property managers make that mistake. They sit there and talk to you about maintenance coordination and leasing and inspections. And meanwhile, you're just wondering as an investor, can I even trust this person? Like do our values align? Yeah. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but.   John Casmon (16:11) I think you're spot on, right? Because, I mean, ultimately, as an investor, you are only as good as the team you can build. And that property manager is in charge of the day-to-day aspects of the business. especially when you, you know, I've heard horror stories of folks who have done like turnkey investing, right? Where the property manager, someone owns it, they buy it, they fix it up, and then they rent it back to...   an investor. And I've heard horror stories where that property was not being well managed. And that's the fear. If you're not in that marketing, you can't come and see it. So if you got an out of town investor, you really are trusting that property manager. So that is the most important thing, right? Everything else are tactical, daily situational things that can change. But it comes down to do I have the right people, people that I can trust, people who are going to make the right decision based on the information they have.   because they may not know what I know or maybe something shifted and changed where they would have made a different decision. We can't, you know, ache on that. It really comes down to are they doing their best? Are they making good decisions? If they're not making good decisions, is it because they didn't have the correct information, which again, could fall back on you as the investor to say, hey, are they aware of what your goals are? Are they aware of maybe this situation, these tools, these resources, whatever it is? And that's on you to sit and collaborate.   But trust is absolutely paramount because at end of the day, the thing that I think most of us are concerned with is who we partner with. And there's a great book I'm reading right now. And it gets into decision making and the fear of decision making for most of us and why deals stall. Why didn't you hire somebody? Why didn't you, you know, go with the vendor or go with the contractor or with the company? And the biggest thing is we are scared of making the wrong choice. All of us in decision and no action.   Jason Hull (17:43) Absolutely.   John Casmon (18:04) is better than the wrong action for many people because they once they take action. Well, now they're blaming themselves because you didn't pick the right person. Why did you hire that guy? You should have like now this starts to go on in their head versus doing nothing. Well, at least it's you know, it's not going to get worse, you know, it will in lot of cases get worse. So for a lot of people, that is the scariest thing. So if you can take that fear off the table as far as being the right person or being someone who is trustworthy.   Jason Hull (18:07) Right, yeah.   John Casmon (18:32) everything else gets easier. So if you can do that, that's, you know, the best thing you can do as an investor or as a property manager.   Jason Hull (18:38) Yeah, I agree. think one of things that I talk about a lot is that clarity has to come before action because if you don't have clarity and you start taking a bunch of action, doing stuff, every action you take is a little bit wrong. Sometimes it's a lot wrong. so, yeah, we need to get that clarity first before we start ⁓ making moves. And you talked about, I love the example of your property manager that is trying to   optimize maybe for the wrong thing. They're like, want to optimize to the, making sure their vacancy is super low. But that might not be the goal. That's not the primary goal. The goal is money, you know, and there's a really good book is by Elihu Goldratt. It's a good book for operations people, but it's called The Goal. And spoiler alert, the guy's trying to figure out the goal through this whole book, the story and it's money. That's the secret. The goal is the of the business, should be making making money.   And what happens in this book is that people are over optimizing individual pieces in this flow at this warehouse. And it's actually not helping to make money. It's causing more constraint. And so if we over optimize at one stage, it actually creates waste, bloat, inventory, additional work for the next stage. And so sometimes the best thing certain departments can do is slow down and do less in order to get the outcome to be maximized outcome.   And there's some really great examples in that that I think are really powerful. But I think the if you're optimizing for the wrong thing, then you're not making it effective. So you want to make sure you're optimizing for the right thing. Otherwise. ensues. You get mad at somebody, but nobody understood what the goal was. And so I think, yeah, getting a greed upon set of criteria of what what the outcome is and asking the property manager, can you help me achieve this?   And they know, they know if they know what the problem is, usually they can, they know how to help you get whatever goal that you have. And they know whether your goal is probably realistic or not, because they've helped probably a lot of people do this similarly. And so, but yeah, I think it's very important. Make sure you know, where's Hawaii and maybe property management is the vehicle. Now you had mentioned like, I'm really curious about this idea of, you know, maybe creating syndications.   Some property managers are now starting to think, maybe I should create a syndication. What's your criteria for, what's a good syndication and what are some of the, I'd be really curious to get into if some of the property managers listening were wanting to do kind of a little bit of what you do, how they might be able to get started in that. Like what are the beginning steps to make sure they don't make the mistakes you probably already figured out in the beginning?   John Casmon (21:27) Well, I think the first thing is, you really want to get into it? Right. Because for a lot of people, you got to understand it's a different business. Now you're not talking about real estate investing. You're not talking about property management. You're really talking more about, you know, investment management. You're talking about bringing on private investors who are looking for a return. That is communication skills. That's building up a network and a database of   Jason Hull (21:35) Mm-hmm.   Right, returns.   John Casmon (21:54) prospective investors, it's understanding the return projections that they're looking for. And it's really kind of managing the investor expectations, not necessarily the investment. And to give you a great example here, I had a deal where the investment went great, but it was slightly lower than what we initially projected. And I had an investor who was upset.   Jason Hull (22:07) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (22:23) about that. And we had communicated all throughout the entire process where things sat and he wasn't too upset, but he still made it a point to let me know, hey, well, this is less than what you initially thought. And that's challenging because the market shifts, right? Anybody who's bought properties in 2022 and beyond knows the market has shifted drastically over the last three or four years. So those projections made in a 2021-22 environment   Have a hard time standing up in a 25 26 environment We still make good money on that deals double-digit returns for investors ⁓ But you know there was that that was that feedback I got from one of the investors conversely We just exited deal a couple months ago, and we completely exceeded our return projections You know we delivered on a almost a 2.7 equity multiple Hit all you know mid 20s on the IRR completely unheard of stuff in this environment   And I have one investor call me and say, hey, John, I just checked my account. Is this right? And I'm like, yeah, it's it's right, man. He's like, my gosh, you guys killed it, man. my. Like, this is amazing. And it's great to hear. But again, that is separate from the investment. Right. Happy to manage the investor expectations and concerns. But that was an up and down investment where we had, you know, a moment where we actually had to put some of our general partner capital into the deal to keep it going.   Jason Hull (23:27) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (23:48) We have floating rate debt. had to refinance out of that. And we had to kind of rush to do that before rates started to go crazy. We had moments where our construction or renovation costs were much higher than we anticipated. So there are a lot of things that we had to navigate. And I think what happens for a lot of operators, a lot of people who get into syndication, they know the real estate and want to do the real estate, but they do not understand the perspective of the investor. And when you don't communicate to investors on a frequent basis and a clear, transparent nature,   Jason Hull (24:19) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (24:19) They fill in the blanks and   the first concern every investor has and they won't say it. Most of time they don't say it, but I promise you they're thinking it after they make that investment. my gosh, did I make a mistake? Am I going to lose money? Is this person going to run off? Is this going to be some sort of fraudulent thing? Is this deal going to fail? These are all that we're wired like that. This is caveman stuff, right? We're wired to protect ourselves.   Jason Hull (24:36) Hmm.   Right.   John Casmon (24:45) And when you make an investment, and by the way, our investments are typically $50,000 and up, right? So these are not small investments. So when you make that investment, people start to second guess that decision. So my job when it comes to this side of the business is to keep them grounded that, hey, you've done your research, you've made an informed decision, you've picked a good partner, we've done this before. ⁓   Jason Hull (24:50) Yeah. Right.   John Casmon (25:13) And it's really to make sure that they feel comfortable with that decision. It has nothing to do with the investment, right? The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game. So first thing I would tell any of your property managers when they get into this business is understand, do you actually like people? Do you want to manage investors? Are you comfortable managing people's money? ⁓ And then beyond that, you have to do it the legal way. There are a lot of regulations around accepting capital from other people.   Jason Hull (25:31) you   John Casmon (25:42) So you can do it as a joint venture. The more common way of doing it, the more accepted way of doing this is by doing a formal syndication, which requires you to file SEC documentations. ⁓ know, there's regulation D and regulation A and there's some couple others, but typically it's going to be reg D 506 B or 506 C filing, which basically is the the structure that allows you to offer ⁓ passive investment opportunity or a security to investors. So again, for some people,   It's overwhelming. they're like, nope, never mind. But for some people, they love it. They want to get into it and they can learn more about that process.   Jason Hull (26:19) Got it. Yeah. I think I love your idea that it's more about managing expectations rather than the investments. And I think, I think that's good advice for all the property managers listing. This is something we spend a lot of time coaching clients on because they think their job is to manage properties. But really, if they're not strong in managing expectations and managing the relationship, it's 10 times to 100 times harder to manage the properties.   their operational costs go through the roof because owners are getting anxious. They're asking more questions. They're getting all these interruptions and calls, tenants, owners constantly. And if they had just managed the relationship and expectations and set strong boundaries at the outset, everybody would feel calmer. And I think really for business owners, I think the thing that really stood out to me that I've been focused on, and this is I've done some personal coaching and this is just nervous system regulation.   If you can, and John, seem like you're pretty chill and pretty calm and I'm sure the investor feel safe with you, which is why you've had success. If you are a person that is anxious and you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, you're going to have, you're going to struggle in leading anybody, especially in relationships to your spouse and like everybody else. so having a calm, regulated nervous system allows your investors.   to entrain to your nervous system and to feel safer and to calm down. And that's not something you can pretend or you can just fake. You have to be that and they can sense and they can feel that it'll come across in your tone and in your body language and how you communicate. But if you can make sure that you're in that space and that you're able to regulate your own system, you're able to stay calm when other people are coming at you.   and other people are angry and other people are emotionally heightened. And you recognize this isn't really you. It's just that's them. And you can maintain that calm. You will be able to create a lot more safety. And that's really what people want to buy. Most people out there, their primary basic need is safety and security. Most people. That's why they aren't entrepreneurs. That's why they don't go start jobs. That's why they aren't like you and me. And if you're a property management business owner listening to this,   Most people are not like you. They want safety and security. That's why they get a property manager. They want peace of mind. And so, and I'm sure investors in a syndication, they also want some peace of mind because this is a big chunk of change.   John Casmon (28:55) They do. And I will say to most of the property managers I come across thrive in chaos. Right. They're used to stuff getting thrown at them. Right. And when you talk to them and get to know them, you learn very quickly. They like it. They do. They like the fact that they don't know what the day is going to bring. It could be a. Yeah, yeah. Could be a tenant coming with some crazy issue. It could be something from it's never boring and they thrive in it. However.   Jason Hull (29:00) Yeah.   Yeah.   They like the variety and unique challenges that property management brings, for sure.   It's never boring.   John Casmon (29:25) What happens then if you if they're going to look to work with investors and particularly raise capital and kind of do their own syndications, they have to understand that while they may thrive in chaos and uncertainty, most other people want organization. You want everything you said right. You want to have the calmness. You are looking for a captain to steer the ship. And for that part of the personality, they're going to have to tap into a different side of it to demonstrate how they handle chaos.   Jason Hull (29:37) Hmm.   Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (29:54) not that they are chaotic. And I think what happens a lot of times when you're working with property managers is that they don't project that level of control. It just feels like they're reacting. So part of it is that, and they're really, really good ones. The ones who make it to that next level who are the regional managers and get those promotions, well, that's what they do. They manage the chaos and they manage up. They do a great job of telling the owners,   Jason Hull (30:06) Yeah.   Mm.   John Casmon (30:23) the leadership, whoever they need to talk to, they're telling them, hey, here's how here's our process. Here's how we're managing the situation. Here's what's going on. Here's what we're into. Hey, we had a water main burst here. Here's we bought. call three companies. We've got three quotes, but it's calm, right? It can be the worst. I'll give you a real example, right? At a fire, one of my properties and I was going to meet a property manager and I just happened to have a meeting with her that day at the property. She called me.   I was literally about to get in the car. She called me and said, Hey, I just want to let you know we've got a fire going on at the property. I'm not sure if you still want to meet. You're happy to come. We already have, you know, the fire department's here. They're they're putting the fire out right now. We already have another company that's coming in. They're going to walk through the damages once this is kind of settled. And I've already talked to the residents. Residents are good. We've got them hotels for the evening. We've checked with insurance. This is covered in your policy. So they're good to go. So you're happy to come down and talk and all of that if you want to.   Or we can let things settle down and maybe we can meet next week. This is a fire, right? This is like a scary situation. She called me.   Jason Hull (31:26) Right. A literal fire. Yeah. And there's plenty of fires   in managing properties. The literal ones.   John Casmon (31:33) Her calmness, she was so calm. Not only was   she calm, she had handled 90 % of it, right? It was the stuff you could handle in the moment. She handled it. So was like, hey, I don't think it makes sense for me to because I'm probably just going to add more anxiety to the situation at this point, right? It seems like you've got it under control. Why don't we let things settle, literally let the dust settle? And then once it's there, I'll come down. We can assess the damages, figure out what else needs to happen, what other next steps need to take place, right?   Jason Hull (31:41) Yeah? huh.   question. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:03) but had it handled like a rock star. Now, a lot of other folks would have saw the flames, called immediately, my God, there's a fire. ⁓ my God, what are we gonna do? So now you freaking out, everyone's freaking out, no one's controlling the situation, right? So now everyone's mind is just spinning and going. it does really take, kind of go back to where we started the conversation, that mindset of someone who was the boss, who was leading.   Jason Hull (32:05) Yeah, I love that.   Yeah. Freaking out. Yeah.   Hmm. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:32) who is going to take charge, even though it's not their property, they're going to take charge. Here's what needs to happen next. Maybe you have an emergency response plan already put in place, but you have these things already scheduled and ready to go. So when they happen, you're not shocked. You're not surprised. You're not asking questions that maybe you should have figured out upfront. And that's what a great property manager does. And if you convey that to owners, you're going to stand out above and beyond your competition because most people cannot convey that level of control, the level of   planning and the level of expertise that it takes to truly and effectively manage properties from the front, being proactive as opposed to just reacting to whatever the issue of the day is.   Jason Hull (33:13) Got it, okay. So ⁓ I'm reading, I just read, well, I didn't just read. I read in the past a really great book called Extreme Ownership. Really good book. Yeah, phenomenal book. ⁓ I'm going through their newer book, which I think is even better, called The Dichotomy of Leadership. leadership is what we're talking about right now, is that that,   John Casmon (33:23) Yeah, I think I got it like right here. It is right there.   Absolutely.   Jason Hull (33:38) creates a huge impact and there's a lot of misunderstandings of what leadership is, like it's control or it's being aggressive or, but yeah, it's really that calm presence of letting people know I've got it. Like we can take care of this. We've got a plan and staying regulated and calm. So I love that. ⁓ have a, so another question I have is how can the property managers listen to this? How could they maybe target or partner   with, if possible, syndications like you, like people that are doing what you're doing. Is there a chance that they could be a resource or do most syndications just in-house and do, they are a property management business?   John Casmon (34:19) No, no, most ⁓ most that I know work with third party manager companies. So I would say first and foremost, if you and syndications, I mean, it sounds like a big, huge, fancy word. But I mean, honestly, anytime you work with passive investors is technically a syndication. So it really comes down to figuring out who is looking for third party management and whether or not it's technically a syndication or not is really irrelevant. You want someone who is going to be managing or owning the property.   Jason Hull (34:24) Okay.   Yeah.   John Casmon (34:49) They want third party, but you have to understand their plan, going back to understanding the goals, right? Most syndications are looking to sell in a three to seven year timeframe, typically five to seven years. Most buy and hold owners have not decided or have not identified their exit strategy. So that's probably the biggest difference is when you have, let's just call it an individual investor or maybe it's a   Jason Hull (35:01) Okay.   Right.   John Casmon (35:17) a family or whatever that's buying and they want a third party manager, they don't know the exit. They haven't predetermined that they're going to sell in five years. So they are buying and holding it. And that goes back to the the I think the separation of understanding the objective, because for that person, having a full property is great. It means they're maximizing the revenue potential today. When you are syndicating.   most syndicators already assume 5 % vacancy. That's that's in everyone's underwriting. So you being at 100, they won't even give you credit banks don't even give you credit for it. So all of these things are already assumed. So for us to be above that is actually a miss, because it means we're not being as aggressive on the rent. So just understanding the mindset of a syndicator, which is they are looking to sell typically they're looking to double their money over a five or six year period. So how can you create value?   And that's something most property managers don't fully understand. But I would sit and I would talk to that syndicator. And if you want to be a syndicator or partners, not just be a third party vendor, but you actually want a partner, which we have seen a lot of folks look to do. You want to figure out how you can bring value to the table, because now we are aligning your interest with that syndicators interest. And now you've got a great partnership.   because every syndicator is going to need property management and they're going to need construction management to drive value. So if they can bring those people in as partners, that's a great opportunity for you. And if you're a property manager, you may have phenomenal relationships. You may already have contractor or the vendor partners that you trust in that marketplace. And if you could then take that and get a slice of the equity, that makes you very valuable for both sides.   Jason Hull (37:08) Do syndications, do they also need investors in capital or do most of them have that, are they really good at that? Okay.   John Casmon (37:15) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   mean, I mean, syndication at its core really just comes down to the need of capital. If someone had the capital themselves, they would probably just buy it directly and not go through the process of syndication. Because the syndication is literally just raising the money from passive investors. And in that scenario, again, being able to manage that, manage the communication, ⁓ that's really what a syndication truly is.   Jason Hull (37:42) So a really good property management partner could bring property management, some of the construction elements and investors and capital to the table. So it could be a nice little.   John Casmon (37:51) That would be amazing.   I'll be honest, man. That's because I don't want your listeners sitting here like, oh, I don't have one of those. I don't know if I've ever met one that had all of those. If you do have all of them, yes, you should consider syndicating yourself because you got all the pieces to the puzzle. Typically, what happens is a property manager has the property managers. I'll give you a great example. I got a 54 unit down in North Carolina. OK, so I came in as a key principal. I've got a.   Jason Hull (38:03) Okay.   Okay.   John Casmon (38:20) to my coaching clients. It's his property that he found. He asked me to come help him with the loan, which I did. One of the members, one of the partners is the property manager. So that's kind of their role to the table is they're managing the property. That's what they kind of came on. They had a couple of relationships, but their main role is the asset and property management side of it. So that's a great way to come to the table. But. Just like anything else in business.   Jason Hull (38:33) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (38:49) It's very hard to find someone who checks every single box. I mean, that's like finding the marketer who's a CMO, who's also the CFO, who's also the COO, who's also the chief of human resource. very like no one, people don't really have like top notch excellent skills at every single one of those, right? Like you might be great at business, great at sales, great at marketing. You're probably terrible at finance, right? Like you just, you just forget to do your expense report type person, right? So it's hard to find someone who's   checks all those boxes. And I think typically when comes to property management, you want someone who's great with people, can resolve issues, but also has to be somewhat, you know, sufficient when it comes to the numbers, tracking all the data, tracking all the, you know, the rent roll, the leases, the income and expense statements, things like that. So usually they're not going to do every single box. But again, if you can find someone or that's where partnerships make sense.   Jason Hull (39:24) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (39:43) If you've got that awesome. And again, I'm not saying a company doesn't have that. I'm just saying a single individual doesn't, which is why it's great to partner. If you can find someone who maybe brings a set of skills that you don't have, whether they're joining you in your property management business or they're partnering up where you're bringing your property management skills to the table with their investing or their networking skills, that makes for a good partnership.   Jason Hull (39:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I got it. Well, we've got several clients, you know, all over the U S that are really good at property management. They're really good at handling the maintenance stuff and they obviously have a pool of investors as clients and, and, know, and they know that they can't do everything. So we coach them in making sure that they would do time studies. They figure out which, what their purpose is. We start to align them towards more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution and more support in their business.   John Casmon (40:32) Yeah.   Jason Hull (40:38) And they start to build the right team. So they're getting operators, they're getting BDMs, they're getting the things they're not like strong in. And so we just make healthier businesses. So for those of maybe my clients listening that have healthy property management companies. And, but they don't want to do syndication. They're just like, man, that's a whole nother business. If I stay in my lane, I can grow that faster. How do they find syndicates? Like, how do they find people like you? Cause you've got a lot of properties connected to you.   and they would probably love to chat with somebody like you. Where do you syndicate people hang out? What's the title? Who runs a syndicate? What are they called? Do they have a specific title?   John Casmon (41:15) You   Yeah.   Yeah, great. Great question. Multifamily syndicator is is kind of the name just syndicator. We're all over. So I've got a podcast called Multifamily Insights. I interview like minded individuals. I've been doing that for a long time. We've done our seven hundred and seventy plus episode. So lots of people, lots of syndicators there. Definitely conferences. So if you look up any multifamily conference in your city.   Jason Hull (41:25) Okay.   Nice.   Okay.   John Casmon (41:46) meetups, lot of meetups in different cities as well. Those are great places to find syndicators. I think the biggest thing though is this.   Figure out who your avatar is. Because while we're talking about syndicators, ultimately, if you want to scale your property management business, I presume you're trying to scale with folks who are looking for third party management and the best option for that. OK, and let me back up. had one of the guests out of a podcast some years back, ⁓ Ashley Wilson. Love Ashley. As you said, something really changed when I thought about the business.   And she said the best way to find any vendor, any vendor is to figure out who relies on that vendor next and ask them for referral. So if you think about it, if you want a great drywall person, ask a painter. A painter is going to know who's great at drywall because they're going to know who makes their job easy and they can come in and just start painting versus a drywall guy who maybe doesn't, you know, you know.   Jason Hull (42:38) I like it.   John Casmon (42:55) mud the drywall properly or doesn't sand it down. So they got to do all this extra work before they start their process. Right. So a painter is going to know a great drywall guy. And in this case, it's really hard on ⁓ the property manager because you guys are the ones who do the work. But if you are looking for syndicators, OK, well syndicators, person who buys the deal. Well, who sells the deal? A broker. Find brokers. Go to a broker, commercial multifamily broker and ask them, hey,   Jason Hull (43:01) I love this.   Yeah.   John Casmon (43:25) Do you know some groups or you have properties that you're going to list? Here are the kind of deals we want to do now on the flip side of that. You got to be good at your job, right? You got to sell yourself and share what you do. So if you've got a great track record, a great resume, showcase that, bring that broker through and let them know, hey, we're looking to scale our property management business here. Here are the kind of assets that we want to manage. If you come across any of these that you're going to list, would you mind keeping our main name out there or referring us or giving us introductions to any of those buyers?   Jason Hull (43:53) Yeah.   John Casmon (43:54) so that we can throw our hat in the running to manage these properties. That's a phenomenal way to do that. And it allows you to shine and expand your relationships in your core networks and in your core markets.   Jason Hull (44:06) Brilliant. think I love the, I love Ashley's idea that you shared, you know, the drywall. Yeah. The painters, like they don't want to be painting over a crappy drywall. They're like, this is a mess. Like this doesn't even look good in my job. Now I'm going to look bad. Yeah. So the brokers know who maybe those best syndicators are. And so they could just go to the brokers and say, Hey, who's, who's doing deals like this? Who who's got things going on? Like who could you connect me with?   And I avoid maybe.   John Casmon (44:36) And on top of that, keep in mind, too, like what   are the times when? Yeah, but think about to like when is a property hiring or bringing on a new property manager? Right. So it's either a current owners firing the existing property manager or the property is being sold. Right. So, I mean, if you can get in during that transition phase, that's going to help you tremendously. And if even if they're firing their existing property manager, you can think through, OK, how do I?   Jason Hull (44:51) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (45:06) work myself and get my name out there. And a lot of times, again, you're going to ask, right? You're going to ask other investors. If I were going through that process, I'm going to call my buddies into space, right? And say, hey, man, having a hard time, my current PM is not working out or we're not hitting our objectives, looking at some other options. Do you have any experience with these guys? What do you know about these guys? Or do you have anybody you could recommend? It's word of mouth, right? So that's what's going to start happening as well. So you kind of have to get out there and network and let folks know who you are, what you do. But you want to be someone who   people can say, yeah, these guys are amazing. You know, they, they only had an eight unit, but they crushed my eight unit for me. I'm sure they kill your 25 unit or your 50 unit. And you've got to start building that rapport and building your reputation in your market.   Jason Hull (45:44) Yeah.   Nice. This is good advice, my friend. So, cool. For those that maybe are investors listening to this show, ⁓ I'd love to hear a little bit about what you do, how you do run your syndication, and how they can ⁓ make things more passive, if that's what they're looking   John Casmon (46:08) Yeah, man. So there are lots of different ways to get in. If you are looking to be more passive, ⁓ high level, here's how it works. OK, so first and foremost, me and my team would go out. We look for the deals. We focus on a really tight radius. So we're in Cincinnati. We like Cincinnati, Columbus, Louisville, Kentucky. Really a two hour radius of the Cincinnati market is where we focus. And right now we actually think there's more opportunities locally. So we're really honed in on Cincinnati right now. But we focus on that once we find a deal.   We reach out to folks in our network. So we have folks in our investor list. ⁓ Once they're on our list, we kind of have a quick vetting process and then we can share opportunities with them. Once they see that opportunity, they get a chance to review it. We like to have a webinar where we answer any questions about the deal. I think for new investors, it's a great way to learn because we have a lot of experienced investors who ask very intelligent, thoughtful questions that   Many first time investors probably would not even think of. And that's a great way to learn, right? And ultimately when it comes to this space, it's really about education. know, it's educating yourself, understanding how you think about risk, how you mitigate risk in your investment choices. And those webinars are a great chance for you to learn about that the first time. Once you've done that, you can go ahead and fill out our official paperwork with our SEC documents.   Jason Hull (47:30) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (47:30) And then   once you're through there, you can make the investment. But the first thing is just to get on our list, you can have access to the deals. And before you do that, we've actually put together a guide that can help people because I found that when I have these calls, people don't ask great questions. Sometimes they do. But I want to make sure that you are informed and well educated because this is a big investment. You know, this is not a 599 thing. And if it doesn't work out, OK, well, I just wasted six bucks. No.   Jason Hull (47:54) .   John Casmon (47:59) We're asking you to make a pretty large investment, whether it's with us or with others. If that's what you're looking to do, I want to make sure you're well informed. So we put together a guide. It's seven questions you must ask before investing in apartments. You can get that on our website. It's casmancapital.com slash seven questions, but it gets into questions around the market itself, the operating team, what you should be looking for, the deal. What is the story of this property? What's the business plan? And it helps you identify different levels of risk because the reality is   Anything can work, but you want to mitigate risk as much as possible, particularly when you're a passive investor, because you are basically saying, I'm trusting these people to find the right deal and execute. And you want to make sure that you are finding and identifying the right individuals who have a proven track record doing the thing that they are asking to do. When I hear about people losing money in real estate. At least 50, if not 70 % of the time.   Jason Hull (48:35) Hmm.   John Casmon (48:57) It is someone doing something for the first time. It is the first time in the market, first time doing this kind of deal, first time doing this kind of business plan. And. I can't tell you how frustrating it is because it's a big red flag, and it's not to say they can't do it and can't have success. But if it's your first time, I want to see how you're mitigating that right. You want to partner with someone who does have the experience you want. Like there are lot of things that you can do to put the odds in your favor. And when you're a passive investor.   Jason Hull (48:59) Mm, yeah.   John Casmon (49:26) It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision. So this guide can help you do that.   Jason Hull (49:34) Yeah, love it. I'm going to run a quick word from our sponsor real quick. Our sponsor for this episode is Vendero. And many of you tell me that property management maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of being a property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 percent? That's exactly what Vendero has achieved. So they leverage cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders.   Troubleshooting, coordinating with vendors and reporting. This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee. Learning your preferences, executing tasks flawlessly and never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees you up to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio or even just taking a well-deserved break. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendero. Visit vendero.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need.   All right, so John, this is super helpful. love you've got your list. ⁓ You got your webinar, you've got your guide. I would recommend property managers listening to this. If they're curious about the world of syndication, that they start getting into your stuff and seeing how an expert like you is doing this and maybe even get involved in some of the deals with you or something might be a good idea. And they can kind of get a feel for how this works. And then maybe they'll say, I don't want to do what John does.   And I'll just find people that do, but they'll at least understand how they could partner with people like that. then, or they may decide, you know what? John's clever, but I'm clever too. I might be able to figure out how to do this too. And maybe they'll do it too. And, but I think there's a solid opportunity for property managers that want to be in the multifamily space and do multifamily management to find third party people that are doing these syndication deals. They need good property managers and property managers want more doors and they want to grow.   And if you don't, because your business sucks and it's uncomfortable, then reach out to me. I'll help you out. We'll get you dialed in. But ⁓ John, what else would you say to the investors that are maybe they're familiar with this and they've done some real estate investing and they've worked with some syndications ⁓ and they get on your list to do the webinar. What would you say to them next?   John Casmon (51:56) Yeah, I think the biggest thing is understand what you're looking for. You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for investors is when you can't pull the trigger, it's typically because you haven't figured out what you're solving for. Are you looking for passive income? So you're just looking for a cash flow? Are you looking for long term wealth appreciation? Are you looking for tax benefits and to reduce kind of your tax liability? Do just want to diversify? Maybe you got feel like you have too much in a stock market, just like we put something somewhere else. So.   Figure out what you're actually solving for. Understand your risk tolerance, you know, because every deal is different. In our case, we do value add B class deals. That's a fancy way of just saying we like properties that already making money that are solid, solid tenant based. Think of when I say B class, I'm thinking of all stuff that was built maybe 30 years ago, maybe 40, maybe 20 years ago. Stuff that.   your teachers, your firefighters, your police officers, places where they might rent. So desirable locations, not luxury, not super high end, not, you know, super courts, everything. ⁓ But, you know, places that you would want your kid, your kid was in college, places you would be fine with your kid living, right? So you're thinking about that stuff. That's, you know, I don't say affordable stuff. That's not crazy price. So that's kind of what we focus on.   Jason Hull (53:15) So would   that be like, is that how you find the best markets then?   John Casmon (53:21) That's part of it. That's our strategy. There are different strategies that people utilize. I have found for us that is a sweet spot where we can take those kind of assets, modernize them and create value for potential renters. Some people like to focus only on they call it core plus right where they're buying newer stuff, stuff built five years ago or three years ago. And maybe it was, you know, leased up and they're just going to go in and hold it longer. You'll find other ways to add more money through amenities.   Jason Hull (53:35) Okay.   John Casmon (53:50) So some people do that strategy. Some people like older properties where they're buying more distressed or much older properties and are trying to fully renovate them and bring them up. There are strategies out there, something like new construction, stuff that doesn't exist. They want to build from the ground up. So it really comes down to you. Every investing strategy has a different level of risk. This has nothing to with real estate, right? This is investing in general. you're buying, you know, know, value stocks versus growth stocks versus Internet, it's the same stuff, right?   So you just have to figure out your level of risk. We like value at B-class multifamily deals. Once you understand your level of risk and balance that with your return expectations or projections, that's when you can figure out which investments actually make sense. You know, I have some folks who they like to invest in what we call trophy assets. And...   They may not know that right away, but when you send them a couple of deals and they look at the property like, ⁓ it's okay. They want something. They want something they can brag about. They want to drive you by like, see that building over there? That's me. And if that's fine, if that's what you want, understand what comes with that, right? That's going to be a lower term, right? Because these are, there's not much value to create, right? You've got a brand new property. It's A class, rents are $2,500. There's not a whole lot you can do there. And because of that,   Jason Hull (54:49) Yeah, they don't want to show that off. Look what I'm connecting.   OK, right.   Thank   Yeah.   John Casmon (55:13) There's not as much risk. So you're going to get less return because there's less risk. That's fun. Some people want to maximize their return, right? Hey, I don't need this money. I want to let it ride for 20 years. So they might want to do new construction or they might want to do a deep discount, highly distressed vacant property that needs, you know, $50,000 per unit to renovate it and turn around because the upside is there. So it just depends on that investor and your level of risk. Right. And most of us fall somewhere in the middle.   Jason Hull (55:27) Thank   John Casmon (55:43) which is kind of our strategy. figure out your level of risk tolerance, what you're looking for. And sometimes you don't know until you start looking at a Because you might think you're a cashflow person until I show you what cash flows. And you're like, oh, no, I don't want to be in that de

Adam starts off this week's episode with a recent beef he has with Boy Meets World. The fellas recap the Valentine's Day trivia they hosted and Adam shares about his participation in the Okoboji Burger Battle! Ryan then shares a hilarious childhood skiing story and why he wasn't destined to be an olympic skier. In the Meat, Mm!, of the episode we remember the illustrious career of Robert Duvall and rank our top 5 Duvall movies. We end the show with a trip to the 90s VHS cabinet. Hut Hut! Love y'all.

In Episode 8 of newly named WE Don't Know ball, formerly Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider recap Super Bowl weekend, break down the early NFL offseason, and dive deep into one of the most honest quarterback conversations of the year. The episode opens with a candid Super Bowl recap, including why the game fell flat, what Seattle did better, and why one loss doesn't erase a strong Patriots season. M|M and Tom discuss Drake Maye's late-season regression, the role of experience, injuries, and weather, and why defensive performances often get overlooked when the offense stalls. From there, the conversation shifts to franchise tags, salary cap decisions, and how teams recover from massive contract mistakes. Using recent examples, they explore why coaching stability and leadership matter more than public panic. Quarterback “retreads” become the central theme as M|M and Tom debate which former starters still have upside in the right system. Names like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Justin Fields, and others are evaluated through the lens of opportunity, coaching, and pressure — not just raw talent. The episode wraps with thoughts on the NBA All-Star Game, praising the renewed competitiveness while questioning the future of the dunk contest and the importance of star participation. Real debate, real context, no hot takes. Topics Covered Super Bowl recap and Patriots–Seahawks analysis Drake Maye's development and late-season play NFL franchise tags and cap management Quarterback contracts and team recovery NFL QB retreads and second chances How many QBs are truly franchise players NBA All-Star Game competitiveness Dunk contest decline and star power

12 of the greatest, by the greatest MM!!Machel Montano and Xtatik - Big TruckPatrice Roberts & Machel - Band Of D YearMachel Montano - JumbieMachel Montano - AdvantageMachel Montano - Pump yuh Flag (Drum Mix)Machel Montano - Ministry Of Road (M.o.r.)Machel Montano- LIKE AH BOSS RD MIX Machel Montano Ft. Badjohn Republic - Waiting On The StageMachel Montano & Superblue - Soca KingdomMachel Montano ft Skinny Fabulous & Bunji Garlin- FamalayMachel Montano - PardyMachel Montano - Encore

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States. The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care. Early Themes Lavasani describes PMC's work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines. Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction. They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why the VA matters. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets. Core Insights A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains. Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible. Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed: Standardized safety protocols across providers Integration support, not medication alone Clear training pathways for clinicians Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence. Later Discussion and Takeaways The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement. Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements. For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct: Veterans are likely the first federal pathway Public education remains essential Safety standards must be shared and transparent Integration and workforce development need attention now If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success. Frequently Asked Questions What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy? They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care. Is ibogaine currently available through the VA? No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program. Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination? Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities. What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman? They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events. Closing Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement. Closing This episode captures a real-time view of how federal policy could shape the next phase of the psychedelic resurgence, especially through veteran-facing legislation and VA infrastructure. Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman argue that coordination, public education, and shared safety standards will shape whether access expands with credibility and care. Transcript Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We're gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I'm sure. Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me. Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us. Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines. Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that's going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue's success because, um, when we're talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority. Melissa Lavasani: And there's guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it's, it's really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now. Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress. Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine. Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we've, we've been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we're also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress. Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let's chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It's called For Veteran Society and it's all, um, there's a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I've been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of. Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman. Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we're just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't make it, but next time, I hope. But I've heard a lot of good things and, um, it's, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We're very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we're all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue. Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it's, it's, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that's like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don't wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we've got one cha one chance at this issue. And it's like, that's, that's kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they're new and they're fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it. Melissa Lavasani: And there's a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we've gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn't have the level of knowledge that we all have. Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we're sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we're not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don't need to talk about. It's why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now. Melissa Lavasani: Not because we're a veteran organization, but because we're, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it's a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What's something that we're paying too much attention to that doesn't necessarily need that much attention? So it's, um, it's a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data. Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman's Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don't necessarily qualify for clinical trials. Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that's one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you're cre you're creating a vacuum for people and people don't live in a vacuum. So we don't necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under. Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there's a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we've got one shot at this. Melissa Lavasani: We have people's attention in Congress. Um, now's the time to start acting, and let's be really considerate and thoughtful about what we're doing with it. Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that. Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it's a, it's a good jumping off point, right? That it's something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind. Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it's, it, it's an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract. Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I'm going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that's the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don't have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can't. Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don't, I'm not saying they don't, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know. Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world's best shipbuilding program. Why doesn't the VA have the world's best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there's, there's an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front. Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it's kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they're doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it's time for a trip to Home Depot. Jay Kopelman: Let's get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what's broken, which is really the way of doing things. It's not, veterans aren't broken, we are who we are. Um, but it's a, it's a way to fix what isn't working. So I, I think that, you know, given there's tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we've, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality. Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn't be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there's a lot of things that got us here. Um, it's not necessarily the operator's fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right? Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there's, there's risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate. Joe Moore: Like there's no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don't, I don't necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I've heard rumors that something's gonna happen there, and I'm, I'm hopeful I'll always wanna share my opinion on that. Joe Moore: But yeah. I don't know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I'll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right? Jay Kopelman: They've been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it's like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don't feel well, you get sick. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You're on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv. Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it's, I think it's just a matter of. Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You've gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You've gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they're not called standard operating procedures for nothing. Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It's true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let's say the F 35 now, right? Because it's flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force. Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you're gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it's still pretty much the, the same thing. Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety's paramount. It's always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we'll work with this provider. Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you'll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they've, they've cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because. Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don't know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient's system? You know, there, there are things there that we don't know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don't know. Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven't been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it's safe, and I trust their opinion because they've seen it elsewhere as well. Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it's almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there's a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what's called a safety standout. And you don't do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again? Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don't want to do that. Like, we don't wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00] Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let's get like the, I don't know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief. Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here's what we see. Let's work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it's hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about 'cause it's illicit here. Um, I don't understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that's something to like the public should dig into. Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I'll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody's using and there's no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That's just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that's like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other. Jay Kopelman: It's not like we don't all know one another, right? Joe Moore: Yes. Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we're represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes. Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn't see that. Um, Melissa Lavasani: all right, I'm off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay's hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it's just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that's just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field. Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it's a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let's be honest, like if we don't start collaborating and, and the federal government's moving forward, the federal government's gonna coordinate for us. Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn't, and they're not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It's really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one's gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I've, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we're not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it's like, just let's get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there's plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about. Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that's going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don't think we've done a great job at that thus far, but I think there's still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I'm hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other. Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there's an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we've organized and here's how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it's, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren't necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there's certainly places that need attention. Um, there's certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it. Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that's like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn't really care about in the early eighties. Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before. Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics. Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it's important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing. Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don't target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I've seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space. Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they're trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole. Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that's where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats. Jay Kopelman: But we're also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he's doing that will have 40 patients in it when it's all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we'll hit the 40. So there, there's a lot of good here that's being done by some really, really good people who've been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this. Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don't have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need. Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don't think we've touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn't designed for that. So it's gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it's not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home. Jay Kopelman: You don't just do that, you've gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I'm not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it's very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own. Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it's, once it's in place, you know, the sky's the limit. I think. Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what's, what's going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00] Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn't preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right? Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don't have to treat them again. Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who's not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it's like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work. Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I'm concerned, because this is coming and we're gonna need the people. It's just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that's unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that. Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there's gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so, Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward. Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there's nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that's really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they're dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn't just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it's a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House. Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there's also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there's been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that's really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of. Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it's like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block. Melissa Lavasani: And I think it's, I don't think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It's like, let's look at what, [00:38:00] um, what's just been announced from the White House. They're, they're all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F. Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior's goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone's talking about psychedelics. Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there's like a lot of undue frustration within folks 'cause um, you don't necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it's intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes. Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we're a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don't, aren't necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there's a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move. Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines. Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It's been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was, Melissa Lavasani: that's on me. Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what's actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it's just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, it's, it's not the photo ops on the hill, it's the conversations that you have. Melissa Lavasani: It's the dinner parties you go to, it's the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That's why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There's, it's, there are like power players here. Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend's house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we're reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills. Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it's, it's really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right? Jay Kopelman: But real life happens. Melissa Lavasani: Yes, Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So, Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I, I can't imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there's so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right. Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it's then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn't help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that. Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it's, you know, we're not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It's, it's understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It's nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you're making me go to Mexico for this. Joe Moore: I did that and you're making me leave the country for the thing that's gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it's also, let's face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place. Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It's a, it's a dire situation out there. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right? Jay Kopelman: And you know, it's not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don't have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that. Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it's, I I don't think it's fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it's not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it's not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We're individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don't think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees. Jay Kopelman: It's not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we're all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they're 76, not 66. Some look like they're 56. Not like they're, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts. Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they're addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana. Jay Kopelman: Somebody's smoking a joint and all of a sudden they're addicted to fentanyl or they die. Melissa Lavasani: I think we're having a, Jay Kopelman: it's, it's just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently. Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many. Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is. Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you're, you know, two years later you're on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that's tough. It's really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well. Joe Moore: But it's just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It's not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it's like you come back and you're like, what's gonna make me feel okay right now? And it's not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there's not great treatments and there's, there's a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen. Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there's, it's, it's, IGA is gonna be great. It's gonna be really important. I really can't wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there's a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don't need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy. Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I've been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things? Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it'll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched. Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that's doing very well. I mean, it's probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now. Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you're talking about Schedule one Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don't have the money to research things that are on Schedule one. Melissa Lavasani: 'cause there's so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it's just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down. Melissa Lavasani: Um, but Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh, Melissa Lavasani: right. Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it'll be really interesting when that happens. I'm gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that's potentially a protectionist move. Joe Moore: Like, I'm not, I'm not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie's, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it's likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don't, I don't see a world in which it's not an approved medication. Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don't know a timeline, I would say Jay Kopelman: yeah. Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they've got. But who knows, like, I haven't followed it too closely. So, and that's an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you're not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know? Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don't know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there's like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren't gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever. Joe Moore: You know, it's, Jay Kopelman: well, I think it's a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there's the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There's the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us. Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn't add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes. Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there's everything from, you know, I'm Jay, I'm involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association. Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um, Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but, Joe Moore: oh gosh, let's Jay Kopelman: talk Joe Moore: later. Jay Kopelman: That's self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I'm [00:53:00] not, I'm not that smart. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I'm endlessly hopeful pull because I'm still here. Right. I, I've been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement. Joe Moore: It's not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic. Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: And I think there's no way that we're not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don't know. Do you, are you all taking odds? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they're saying. Melissa Lavasani: I think it's safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there's gonna be at least one psychedelic that's FDA approved. Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Lavasani: If you're not counting Ketamine. Joe Moore: Right. Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn't make sense that it. Shouldn't be or wouldn't be. Right. The, we've seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It's at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment. Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I'd love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I'm bringing my newsletter back because I'm realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What's happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC's value is that we're, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what's actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement? Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we're putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we're covering all the ground that we need to cover. We're talking to the patient groups, we're talking to traditional mental health organizations, we're talking to the medical community, we're talking to the general population. Melissa Lavasani: I think that's like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story's always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00] Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that's how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what's happening in these clinical trials, what the data's been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this. Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven't you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we're at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they're willing to move on it. Melissa Lavasani: Um, there's another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there's still so many offices that we haven't been able to get to just 'cause like we don't have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that's. Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they're not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It's like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be. Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we're all, we're all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We're just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I'm really excited about the future and I'm, I've been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future. Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation. Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they've, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports. Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they've provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don't wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right. Jay Kopelman: And I'd just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us. Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future. Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space. Joe Moore: Thanks.  

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The PESO Model has been guiding smart communications strategies for over a decade, but the tactical landscape underneath it keeps shifting. In the latest evolution, Gini and her team have completely revamped the PESO Model Certification to address how AI and large language models are fundamentally changing visibility in 2026. In this episode, Chip interviews Gini about the newly updated certification and what’s changed in how organizations should think about paid, earned, shared, and owned media. The conversation centers on “visibility engineering”—the intersection of owned and earned media where LLMs are scraping information and making decisions about who appears in AI-generated answers. Gini explains why owned media remains the foundation (without content on your own properties, there’s nothing to demonstrate to journalists, creators, or LLMs what you’re about), but the recommended path has shifted from owned-then-earned-or-shared to a more deliberate owned-then-earned-then-shared-then-paid sequence. This evolution reflects how AI systems verify information by comparing what’s on your website against what credible third parties say about you. They also tackle the persistent “X is dead” headlines that plague the industry—whether it’s websites, PR, or press releases. Chip and Gini push back hard on the notion that websites are becoming irrelevant, pointing out that your owned content hub becomes more valuable in an AI-driven world, not less. It’s your source of truth, the fuel for custom AI assistants, and the foundation that persists even as social platforms come and go. The conversation covers practical questions about implementing PESO in smaller agencies, whether you need to be full-service to deliver on all four pillars, and how the certification meets communicators at different experience levels—from college students to seasoned professionals. If you’ve been treating PESO as just four columns of tactics rather than an operating system for communications, this episode clarifies what you’re missing. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Owned is still the foundation because without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different.” Chip Griffin: “In a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing.” Gini Dietrich: “We are in a zero click world. And so how does that affect the work that we’re doing? It’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up no matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information.” Chip Griffin: “Having your content in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos because that is the fuel for that tool.” Turn ideas into action Audit where your owned content actually lives. Open a spreadsheet and list every place you’ve published content over the past two years—your website, Medium, Substack, LinkedIn articles, guest posts, anywhere. Mark which platforms you own versus rent. This awareness exercise reveals how vulnerable your content strategy is to platform changes and algorithm shifts. Map one content piece through all four PESO pillars. Take your next webinar, speaking engagement, or major thought leadership piece and plan the full PESO path before you execute: owned content on your site summarizing key insights, pitching earned media opportunities based on those insights, creating social distribution that doesn’t just promote but educates, and identifying where paid amplification makes strategic sense. This forces you to think about PESO as an integrated operating system rather than disconnected tactics. Dive deeper into the PESO Model. Visit spinsucks.com/peso-model-certification to learn more about the newly updated certification program. Whether you’re looking to formalize your team’s approach to integrated communications or simply understand how the model has evolved for the AI era, the certification provides a structured path from foundational concepts through practical implementation. Resources For more on the PESO model, visit the Spin Sucks website Related Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? How PR agencies can use the PESO Model to improve client retention How to allocate your client's PESO budget Wake up or get left behind: AI is forcing your hand View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’ve heard that you might be involved with this thing, I think it’s called the PESO Model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, maybe. Chip Griffin: You may you use that, right? That’s, yeah. Just you found it and you said this should, this is something we should use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Something I just found and thought we should use it. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah, no, in all fairness, you are in fact the inventor of the PESO model, which is widely used throughout the PR and communications world, and it has been evolving with the times as we all should be. And so I, I think we have some, some new news that you’ve been sharing around the PESO model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, according to a couple of people on the internet, it has not evolved at all because they are not able to use Google or AI to say, has the PESO model evolved since 2014? Perhaps. It has. And you know, all of last year I spent a good amount of time, especially on the blog and the Spin Sucks podcast, talking about visibility engineering, which is where owned and earned media meet because that’s where the LLMs are getting their information, right. We’re finding more and more that they’re scrubbing websites and then they’re comparing that to earned media, to the things that media not, and not just traditional media, newsletters, podcasts, things like that, that they’re saying about the brand and looking to see if they match. And if they do, then they’re appearing. You’re, you start to appear in AI answers. So I spent a good amount of time last year exploring that and understanding that and, you know, using the blog and the podcast as my sandbox to learn more about it and teach the industry about it and understand what was happening. As part of that, I said, okay, it’s time to do a big refresh of the certification. Because we did the certification in 2020 and then we did a small update to it in 2024. And this one is a completely revamped certification that shows you how exactly AI is… how exactly you’re showing up in AI answers and doing that via the PESO model. So we start with owned, we go to earned, then we use shared and paid. There’s integration and measurement and it brings it all together. So I’m actually, I said to my team, not to brag, but this is really good. It’s a really, really good course. And we hired, last March I hired a chief learning officer who has helped me build it into something that’s more effective for an adult learner. So it’s really specific to, you know, you can get the work done while you’re also a working professional. So she has done a really nice job of bringing that element into it. It has AI prompts so that you can use the PESO AI that we built to help you do the work. And it’s, it’s pretty good. I’m, I’m really proud of it. I’m really proud of the work we did. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, it really is something that, that fuels most communication thinking in smart organizations today, whether that’s agency side, client side, that sort of thing. Now it’s not always as well understood it should be. Some people just throw the term around. A little bit willy-nilly. Yes. You know, without really thinking it through. Of course there are other people who claim that it’s also their invention, which is, you know, but we’re not gonna go down that path ’cause we’re staying positive today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. We’re gonna stay positive. Positive, yes. Chip Griffin: But I think to, you know, to me, one of the things that, when I look at the PESO model, I think is, you know, it’s great because it is an overall set of principles and framework that is effectively timeless when it comes to communications. And then it’s the implementation side of it. The tactical side of it. That’s the piece that needs to evolve. The, I mean, the four letters are still the same. It’s not like you, right? Yes. The evolution has not been to change PESO to something else. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: It, it’s really just saying. Okay. All of these different components, the paid, earned, shared, and owned have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so how we implement it needs to adapt to that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s very much, I mean, when we did it in 2020, it was very much like how, how you’re using content marketing really to inform your contributed content through earned and then sharing that link through, through social and then putting some money behind it to boost it. And that was, you know, that was six years ago, and it worked back then, right? It’s still, social still worked from the perspective that you could post a link and people would follow that path back to your website. Well, people don’t do that anymore. You know, we are in a zero click world. And so how do, how does that affect the work that we’re doing? So, you’re right, the paid, earned, shared, and owned doesn’t change. That model stays the same. It’s the pieces on top that, that have evolved. And so now it’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up. No matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information, we show up no matter what. And it’s really, that’s what it’s really about is how do you engineer that visibility? How do you make sure that you’re showing up in the right places at the right time to the right people? Chip Griffin: And so if you’re, if you’re thinking about leaning into the PESO model for your communications needs. You know, where should you be starting today? Is it owned? Is it social? Is it, you know, how, has it changed? If at all from that standpoint over the last decade? Gini Dietrich: Owned is still the foundation because without anything, without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different. So that’s the foundation. There’s nothing do than to just create that distribution layer through shared, and there’s certainly nothing to amplify through paid. So that’s always been the foundation. There are of course exceptions if you’re selling widgets or your, you have an Amazon store or something like that, then I would probably start with paid, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the most part, most organizations need to start with owned. And we used to say that then you could go to earned or shared. Depending on your goals. Now we’re saying actually the best path for engineering that visibility is owned, then earned because you need that credibility, so the LLMs can cite that information. Then you build your distribution layer, and then you amplify your work. Chip Griffin: So I, think what I’m hearing you say is that websites are not dead despite all of these, you know, headlines that you like to see people’s, Gini Dietrich: No, they are not. Chip Griffin: The, the rise of LLM, websites are dead. You’re not even gonna need a website in five years. Gini Dietrich: No, we still need a website because otherwise the LLMs don’t have anywhere to get the information about you. Humans don’t have any, I mean, we still go to websites. We might not go, you know, a direct click like we used to, but we still go to websites to get information. So yeah, you still need a website. I hate the, such and such is dead. The PR, there’s one that PR is dead right now. Like PR is not dead. Come on. You can’t do, you’re not going to show up in AI answers if without PR. So PR is not dead. Chip Griffin: No, the X is dead has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to, I mean, that, that really is something that, that took off during the start of the social media era. Yeah. Whether it was the press release is dead. This is dead, whatever. I mean, and, you know. Just, it’s not true. I mean, we, you know, I always used to say back 20 years ago, you know, people used to say that radio was dead. Radio is still very much around, and radio is still around in certain forms. I mean, when I’m driving around, I listen to radio. Yes. Is it terrestrial radio? No, it’s satellite radio. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But guess what? It’s still radio. Gini Dietrich: It’s still radio. Yep. Chip Griffin: Right. Podcasts are effectively radio. Transmitted in a different fashion. Yep. And so, you know, I think that the people need to understand that the underlying technology may evolve, some of the tools will evolve, but Gini Dietrich: absolutely Chip Griffin: the, principles and concepts will largely remain the same. Doesn’t mean that everything stays. Yeah, certainly some things, you know, do go away, or become so small that they’re irrelevant, but you know, I think we need to be careful about those things. And, to me, with a website, to me, the other value is it still is a great place to be the central repository of all your information as all of these things change around you. I mean, if, for the last 10 or 15 years you’ve been using your website as your content hub and housing at least your most important, most valuable stuff there, it doesn’t matter whether medium or substack comes or goes. It doesn’t matter whether people move from X to LinkedIn to whatever. Yep. You still have a source of truth for your own information, which becomes even more valuable in the world of AI and LLMs. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I mean, we, have preached for years, we’ve all preached for years that you should not build an audience or content on rented land because to exactly your point, the rented land goes away. X has become something that nobody wants to hang out on. We’ve moved to LinkedIn. Lots of people have moved to Substack. So, those pieces will change. So don’t, I think that theory, philosophy stays the same. Because you have, you are building something that you own, that you control, and allows you to control that narrative and be, tell the story the way you want to, and then you rent that out to other places versus building on rented land where it will go away. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that there are a lot of avenues that are opening up to organizations with, you know, particularly those that have more content already, but also by building it up. And I think in particular of the AI assistant I built on the SAGA website. Mm-hmm. Yep. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos and that kind of stuff because that is the fuel for that tool. Yep. And, and if I was trying to do it based off of, see what you can find that I’ve posted on LinkedIn or Twitter or things over the years, and it’s just not gonna work. And so having that in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I was talking to a client last week and she said that one of the goals for 2026 is they have 17 different brands. So each brand has its own chief executive. And what she has, what she wants, the comms team for each of those brands to do is build an AI agent that helps them with that CEO’s voice. And they can’t do that without content. They can’t do it without the executives’ speeches, webinars, podcasts, appearances, media relations, like they have to have all of that content, blog posts that they’ve written or articles that they’ve written for the website. They have to have that to be able to feed that and train the AI. So without it, they don’t have any, to your point, fuel that will allow them to do that. So 100% that is accurate. Chip Griffin: So as, we’re thinking about implementing PESO properly, so not just, I heard the term, it sounds cool. I made a list of four columns of each, and I just started just chucking stuff in there. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I mean, how do I go about learning it the right way? And I’m, you know, we’re not turning this into a QVC Gini Dietrich: Are you throwing me a softball? Chip Griffin: you know, show here. But at the same time, I, think it is valuable for people to understand what is out there in a more formal sense, to understand and, adopt the process for their own organization. Gini Dietrich: I mean, obviously the PESO model certification is the place to get the information because one of the, one of the things we see is exactly what you said, that people create their four columns and they say, okay, well we’ve got some content and we’re doing some media relations, and we’re throwing that on social. And all right, we’ll put some, budget behind some of our organic social, and we’ve got the PESO model. And that’s, not the PESO model, that’s a list of tactics. So what the certification does is it walks you through exactly. There’s this, a scientific layer to it. It walks you through that scientific layer that allows you to embed an operating system, that let that foundation of your work so that as things evolve and the industry changes and your business goals change, you’re able to change the tactics on top of it. We also hear, well, gosh, my, you know, my clients can’t afford to do a full PESO program, so what should I do? And in fact, they can afford it. You’re just thinking about it as this huge, overwhelming thing. And so the certification walks you through if you’re a solopreneur or a small agency, that walks you through if you’re a midsize, and it walks you through if you’re a large corporation or an enterprise organization. And I will say for small organizations, which are most of our listeners. It’s really about how do you take one piece of content and repurpose it. So let’s say that you do a webinar. How do you take that webinar and create some content around it that, from what the webinar was, not promoting it, not trying to get registrations, but saying, okay, here’s what we learned in the webinar. So we’re gonna create some how-to or thoughtful content for that. And then we’re gonna take pieces of the webinar and we’re gonna break it down for social posts. And then yeah, we’re gonna put some money behind some of it. And we’re also gonna go to some of our trade media and we’re gonna say, Hey, listen, our subject matter expert or our chief executive just did this webinar and here’s what they talked about. Are you interested in some contributed content? So it allows you to do that in a really interesting, effective way without you having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or have a large team. You can do it without a lot of resources. I mean I built the PESO model framework for my agency and we were not, at the time, a big agency. Mm-hmm. So that’s what it was built for, is to make it so that we could do more with less and do more with less resources and, less time and less people and less budget and all the things. So it is definitely, definitely feasible. So that’s what it teaches you how to do. Chip Griffin: So I, you know, I think one of the other concerns that, some particularly smaller agencies have when it comes to PESO is not just the, clients and their budget, but, their own capabilities and, you know, so is it realistic for a small agency to be able to, you know, deliver? We, we talk all the time about being careful about being a full service agency. Yep. But to, implement PESO, do you have to be a full service agency? Gini Dietrich: You do not. That’s the other thing that the certification walks you through is if you have the capability yourself in house. Or you yourself can do it. Then here’s how you do it. If you are building it for an external team or an external agency, here’s how you do it. If the client has a team that can do it, here’s what you’re going to do to build the strategy and the creative brief, and then you’ll hand it off. But here’s what is expected for. Here’s, what’s expected of you to deliver, and here’s what the expectation is for the output from the client team or the agency team, whatever happens to be. So it has those three paths depending on where you are. So yeah, that’s a really good point. It doesn’t the, certification expects you to, build the plan and the strategy, and then based on where you are, it meets you where you are. So if, you have a team that you can execute or that you can delegate it to, great. If your client has a team you can delegate it to great. But it meets you where you are so that you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to be the strategist, you don’t have to be the influencer, but you do have to build the plan and the strategic path to be able to help the team get there. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, let’s talk through some of the logistics around the certification. I mean, how long does it take to get certified? Is this, you know, I, do a weekend course and I’m done. Is it an ongoing process? Is it, you know, is it the equivalent of a master’s degree? I gonna spend two years with, you know, countless hours? What exactly does it look like? Gini Dietrich: It’s built to be done in eight weeks, but I will tell you that most working professionals do not do it that fast. I would say most working professionals do it between 10 and 12. Each module is, so you have the intro earned or owned, earned, shared, paid, integration, measurement, and then the operating system and how to embed that. So it’s eight modules and each module has between 6 and 12 lessons, and each lesson is like 8 to 10 minutes. So, you know, you’re looking at an hour to an hour and a half of learning of content and then you have the exercises for each lesson. So I would venture to guess it’s, you know, if you use the AI prompts effectively, that are in there, it’s between two to five hours a week probably. Chip Griffin: And, who is the certification best for? Is it someone who’s got, you know, prior experience, is this, Hey, I’m fresh outta college and I want to have this so I can use it to, you know, improve my, my job prospects. You know, what, kind of experience are they expected to have, or knowledge are they expected to have coming in? Gini Dietrich: It’s, we built it for any level of expertise. The interesting thing about it, of course, if you have more experience, it’s easier for you to grasp the concepts and implement it quickly. But we also use the certification in a hundred plus universities and the kids, the students go through it. So we find that they… It’s different for them because they have to use a fake business where you can use your own business or you can use your client’s business, right? They have to kind of create the business as they go. But it’s really fun to see what kinds of things come out of that. So it’s built for every level of expertise. It’s a different way of thinking about communications. So it’s not like you have to have 20 years of experience or only a year of experience. It’s because it’s teaching you something new. Chip Griffin: Gotcha. And is the, are the certifications only at the individual level? Are there agency certification programs? What exists in that frame? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we’ve, that, that’s a great question that we evolved too. So it used to be, it was individual based and now we’ve built it so that you can put a team through it, you can put the whole agency through it. The certification itself goes with the individual because it comes through Syracuse University. So it is, so if you have a team member that you wanna put through it, if they leave the certification goes with them. So you cannot say that you do the PESO model anymore if they leave. So we always recommend, I mean, you know, I’m an agency owner, so I’d love to see the agency owner themselves go through it, but I also know that that’s not always doable. So, but if you want the certification to stay with your agency, that’s the way to do it. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. And it, you know, I guess as, we’re winding up here, you know, where do you see the, PESO model headed in, the years, you know, in front of us? I would assume it will continue to evolve. Does your crystal ball tell you anything about, you know, what that evolution will look like? Gini Dietrich: It will continue to evolve. I have not looked into my crystal ball yet because I’ve been so heads down deep into developing the content for this that I haven’t been able to forward think yet, but I’m very much looking forward to being able to go back to my regular job and, start to think about the future, but I’m not there yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, guess that’s fair. I guess asking you for the, next version before this version is even fully out in the wild may, Gini Dietrich: I’ve literally been like blinders on, heads down, creating all of this content. Chip Griffin: I had to try at least, you know, see if I could get the inside a scoop on where the industry is headed so that I can… Gini Dietrich: Ask me in a month. Chip Griffin: I can get there before everybody else, or at least before everybody else accept you. Alright. If someone, wants to learn more about the PESO model or the certification or any of that kind of stuff, where’s, the best place for them to go for that? Gini Dietrich: I feel like we just did an interview. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that was not the intent going, but it made the most sense to me. And I, you know, me, I, follow the thread wherever it feels like it goes. That’s fair. Some of these were questions I actually didn’t know the answer to, so I thought I would ask them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Alright. spinsucks.com. There’s a PESO model certification page. I think it’s actually PESO-model-certification. Chip Griffin: You love your hyphens on that website. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know why it’s that way. That’s just what they do. Chip Griffin: Oh, well. Gini Dietrich: Ask our web firm. Chip Griffin: I’m, sure people can end up finding it. Gini Dietrich: PESO model certification. Spin sucks.com. Chip Griffin: There you go. Excellent. Well, I, think this was good information and I think we, you know, we do talk a lot about the importance of, you know, agencies continuing to adapt. Particularly in, in this age of AI. And, if we are standing still, you know, we are gonna lose our jobs to AI and the other enhancements and improvements that are out there. I think this is one of many ways that you can, make sure that you are not getting left behind and, so, certainly something that most agencies should be at the very least learning more about, if not actually directly implementing within their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, and, like I said, it has AI baked in, so if you’re still on the fence about AI, it’s a good way to dip your toes in the water. Chip Griffin: And if you’re still on the fence on AI, why? Gini Dietrich: It’s so much fun! Chip Griffin: It really is. It can be a time suck at times, but it’s, yeah. It’s also fun and, frankly useful. I mean, I think that’s the… But anyway, that when this is not an AI show, this is a PESO show. Gini Dietrich: Right. So, right, right. Chip Griffin: We, will come back and bash you on AI again in the future. Not, you, but you the listener. You the listener. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Alright. With that we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Tickets for AIEi Miami and AIE Europe are live, with first wave speakers announced!From pioneering software-defined networking to backing many of the most aggressive AI model companies of this cycle, Martin Casado and Sarah Wang sit at the center of the capital, compute, and talent arms race reshaping the tech industry. As partners at a16z investing across infrastructure and growth, they've watched venture and growth blur, model labs turn dollars into capability at unprecedented speed, and startups raise nine-figure rounds before monetization.Martin and Sarah join us to unpack the new financing playbook for AI: why today's rounds are really compute contracts in disguise, how the “raise → train → ship → raise bigger” flywheel works, and whether foundation model companies can outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of them. They also share what's underhyped (boring enterprise software), what's overheated (talent wars and compensation spirals), and the two radically different futures they see for AI's market structure.We discuss:* Martin's “two futures” fork: infinite fragmentation and new software categories vs. a small oligopoly of general models that consume everything above them* The capital flywheel: how model labs translate funding directly into capability gains, then into revenue growth measured in weeks, not years* Why venture and growth have merged: $100M–$1B hybrid rounds, strategic investors, compute negotiations, and complex deal structures* The AGI vs. product tension: allocating scarce GPUs between long-term research and near-term revenue flywheels* Whether frontier labs can out-raise and outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of their APIs* Why today's talent wars ($10M+ comp packages, $B acqui-hires) are breaking early-stage founder math* Cursor as a case study: building up from the app layer while training down into your own models* Why “boring” enterprise software may be the most underinvested opportunity in the AI mania* Hardware and robotics: why the ChatGPT moment hasn't yet arrived for robots and what would need to change* World Labs and generative 3D: bringing the marginal cost of 3D scene creation down by orders of magnitude* Why public AI discourse is often wildly disconnected from boardroom reality and how founders should navigate the noiseShow Notes:* “Where Value Will Accrue in AI: Martin Casado & Sarah Wang” - a16z show* “Jack Altman & Martin Casado on the Future of Venture Capital”* World Labs—Martin Casado• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martincasado/• X: https://x.com/martin_casadoSarah Wang• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-wang-59b96a7• X: https://x.com/sarahdingwanga16z• https://a16z.com/Timestamps00:00:00 – Intro: Live from a16z00:01:20 – The New AI Funding Model: Venture + Growth Collide00:03:19 – Circular Funding, Demand & “No Dark GPUs”00:05:24 – Infrastructure vs Apps: The Lines Blur00:06:24 – The Capital Flywheel: Raise → Train → Ship → Raise Bigger00:09:39 – Can Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem?00:11:24 – Character AI & The AGI vs Product Dilemma00:14:39 – Talent Wars, $10M Engineers & Founder Anxiety00:17:33 – What's Underinvested? The Case for “Boring” Software00:19:29 – Robotics, Hardware & Why It's Hard to Win00:22:42 – Custom ASICs & The $1B Training Run Economics00:24:23 – American Dynamism, Geography & AI Power Centers00:26:48 – How AI Is Changing the Investor Workflow (Claude Cowork)00:29:12 – Two Futures of AI: Infinite Expansion or Oligopoly?00:32:48 – If You Can Raise More Than Your Ecosystem, You Win00:34:27 – Are All Tasks AGI-Complete? Coding as the Test Case00:38:55 – Cursor & The Power of the App Layer00:44:05 – World Labs, Spatial Intelligence & 3D Foundation Models00:47:20 – Thinking Machines, Founder Drama & Media Narratives00:52:30 – Where Long-Term Power Accrues in the AI StackTranscriptLatent.Space - Inside AI's $10B+ Capital Flywheel — Martin Casado & Sarah Wang of a16z[00:00:00] Welcome to Latent Space (Live from a16z) + Meet the Guests[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast, live from a 16 z. Uh, this is Alessio founder Kernel Lance, and I'm joined by Twix, editor of Latent Space.[00:00:08] swyx: Hey, hey, hey. Uh, and we're so glad to be on with you guys. Also a top AI podcast, uh, Martin Cado and Sarah Wang. Welcome, very[00:00:16] Martin Casado: happy to be here and welcome.[00:00:17] swyx: Yes, uh, we love this office. We love what you've done with the place. Uh, the new logo is everywhere now. It's, it's still getting, takes a while to get used to, but it reminds me of like sort of a callback to a more ambitious age, which I think is kind of[00:00:31] Martin Casado: definitely makes a statement.[00:00:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:00:34] Martin Casado: Not quite sure what that statement is, but it makes a statement.[00:00:37] swyx: Uh, Martin, I go back with you to Netlify.[00:00:40] Martin Casado: Yep.[00:00:40] swyx: Uh, and, uh, you know, you create a software defined networking and all, all that stuff people can read up on your background. Yep. Sarah, I'm newer to you. Uh, you, you sort of started working together on AI infrastructure stuff.[00:00:51] Sarah Wang: That's right. Yeah. Seven, seven years ago now.[00:00:53] Martin Casado: Best growth investor in the entire industry.[00:00:55] swyx: Oh, say[00:00:56] Martin Casado: more hands down there is, there is. [00:01:00] I mean, when it comes to AI companies, Sarah, I think has done the most kind of aggressive, um, investment thesis around AI models, right? So, worked for Nom Ja, Mira Ia, FEI Fey, and so just these frontier, kind of like large AI models.[00:01:15] I think, you know, Sarah's been the, the broadest investor. Is that fair?[00:01:20] Venture vs. Growth in the Frontier Model Era[00:01:20] Sarah Wang: No, I, well, I was gonna say, I think it's been a really interesting tag, tag team actually just ‘cause the, a lot of these big C deals, not only are they raising a lot of money, um, it's still a tech founder bet, which obviously is inherently early stage.[00:01:33] But the resources,[00:01:36] Martin Casado: so many, I[00:01:36] Sarah Wang: was gonna say the resources one, they just grow really quickly. But then two, the resources that they need day one are kind of growth scale. So I, the hybrid tag team that we have is. Quite effective, I think,[00:01:46] Martin Casado: what is growth these days? You know, you don't wake up if it's less than a billion or like, it's, it's actually, it's actually very like, like no, it's a very interesting time in investing because like, you know, take like the character around, right?[00:01:59] These tend to [00:02:00] be like pre monetization, but the dollars are large enough that you need to have a larger fund and the analysis. You know, because you've got lots of users. ‘cause this stuff has such high demand requires, you know, more of a number sophistication. And so most of these deals, whether it's US or other firms on these large model companies, are like this hybrid between venture growth.[00:02:18] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Total. And I think, you know, stuff like BD for example, you wouldn't usually need BD when you were seed stage trying to get market biz Devrel. Biz Devrel, exactly. Okay. But like now, sorry, I'm,[00:02:27] swyx: I'm not familiar. What, what, what does biz Devrel mean for a venture fund? Because I know what biz Devrel means for a company.[00:02:31] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:02:32] Compute Deals, Strategics, and the ‘Circular Funding' Question[00:02:32] Sarah Wang: You know, so a, a good example is, I mean, we talk about buying compute, but there's a huge negotiation involved there in terms of, okay, do you get equity for the compute? What, what sort of partner are you looking at? Is there a go-to market arm to that? Um, and these are just things on this scale, hundreds of millions, you know, maybe.[00:02:50] Six months into the inception of a company, you just wouldn't have to negotiate these deals before.[00:02:54] Martin Casado: Yeah. These large rounds are very complex now. Like in the past, if you did a series A [00:03:00] or a series B, like whatever, you're writing a 20 to a $60 million check and you call it a day. Now you normally have financial investors and strategic investors, and then the strategic portion always still goes with like these kind of large compute contracts, which can take months to do.[00:03:13] And so it's, it's very different ties. I've been doing this for 10 years. It's the, I've never seen anything like this.[00:03:19] swyx: Yeah. Do you have worries about the circular funding from so disease strategics?[00:03:24] Martin Casado: I mean, listen, as long as the demand is there, like the demand is there. Like the problem with the internet is the demand wasn't there.[00:03:29] swyx: Exactly. All right. This, this is like the, the whole pyramid scheme bubble thing, where like, as long as you mark to market on like the notional value of like, these deals, fine, but like once it starts to chip away, it really Well[00:03:41] Martin Casado: no, like as, as, as, as long as there's demand. I mean, you know, this, this is like a lot of these sound bites have already become kind of cliches, but they're worth saying it.[00:03:47] Right? Like during the internet days, like we were. Um, raising money to put fiber in the ground that wasn't used. And that's a problem, right? Because now you actually have a supply overhang.[00:03:58] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:03:59] Martin Casado: And even in the, [00:04:00] the time of the, the internet, like the supply and, and bandwidth overhang, even as massive as it was in, as massive as the crash was only lasted about four years.[00:04:09] But we don't have a supply overhang. Like there's no dark GPUs, right? I mean, and so, you know, circular or not, I mean, you know, if, if someone invests in a company that, um. You know, they'll actually use the GPUs. And on the other side of it is the, is the ask for customer. So I I, I think it's a different time.[00:04:25] Sarah Wang: I think the other piece, maybe just to add onto this, and I'm gonna quote Martine in front of him, but this is probably also a unique time in that. For the first time, you can actually trace dollars to outcomes. Yeah, right. Provided that scaling laws are, are holding, um, and capabilities are actually moving forward.[00:04:40] Because if you can put translate dollars into capabilities, uh, a capability improvement, there's demand there to martine's point. But if that somehow breaks, you know, obviously that's an important assumption in this whole thing to make it work. But you know, instead of investing dollars into sales and marketing, you're, you're investing into r and d to get to the capability, um, you know, increase.[00:04:59] And [00:05:00] that's sort of been the demand driver because. Once there's an unlock there, people are willing to pay for it.[00:05:05] Alessio: Yeah.[00:05:06] Blurring Lines: Models as Infra + Apps, and the New Fundraising Flywheel[00:05:06] Alessio: Is there any difference in how you built the portfolio now that some of your growth companies are, like the infrastructure of the early stage companies, like, you know, OpenAI is now the same size as some of the cloud providers were early on.[00:05:16] Like what does that look like? Like how much information can you feed off each other between the, the two?[00:05:24] Martin Casado: There's so many lines that are being crossed right now, or blurred. Right. So we already talked about venture and growth. Another one that's being blurred is between infrastructure and apps, right? So like what is a model company?[00:05:35] Mm-hmm. Like, it's clearly infrastructure, right? Because it's like, you know, it's doing kind of core r and d. It's a horizontal platform, but it's also an app because it's um, uh, touches the users directly. And then of course. You know, the, the, the growth of these is just so high. And so I actually think you're just starting to see a, a, a new financing strategy emerge and, you know, we've had to adapt as a result of that.[00:05:59] And [00:06:00] so there's been a lot of changes. Um, you're right that these companies become platform companies very quickly. You've got ecosystem build out. So none of this is necessarily new, but the timescales of which it's happened is pretty phenomenal. And the way we'd normally cut lines before is blurred a little bit, but.[00:06:16] But that, that, that said, I mean, a lot of it also just does feel like things that we've seen in the past, like cloud build out the internet build out as well.[00:06:24] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting, uh, I don't know if you guys would agree with this, but it feels like the emerging strategy is, and this builds off of your other question, um.[00:06:33] You raise money for compute, you pour that or you, you pour the money into compute, you get some sort of breakthrough. You funnel the breakthrough into your vertically integrated application. That could be chat GBT, that could be cloud code, you know, whatever it is. You massively gain share and get users.[00:06:49] Maybe you're even subsidizing at that point. Um, depending on your strategy. You raise money at the peak momentum and then you repeat, rinse and repeat. Um, and so. And that wasn't [00:07:00] true even two years ago, I think. Mm-hmm. And so it's sort of to your, just tying it to fundraising strategy, right? There's a, and hiring strategy.[00:07:07] All of these are tied, I think the lines are blurring even more today where everyone is, and they, but of course these companies all have API businesses and so they're these, these frenemy lines that are getting blurred in that a lot of, I mean, they have billions of dollars of API revenue, right? And so there are customers there.[00:07:23] But they're competing on the app layer.[00:07:24] Martin Casado: Yeah. So this is a really, really important point. So I, I would say for sure, venture and growth, that line is blurry app and infrastructure. That line is blurry. Um, but I don't think that that changes our practice so much. But like where the very open questions are like, does this layer in the same way.[00:07:43] Compute traditionally has like during the cloud is like, you know, like whatever, somebody wins one layer, but then another whole set of companies wins another layer. But that might not, might not be the case here. It may be the case that you actually can't verticalize on the token string. Like you can't build an app like it, it necessarily goes down just because there are no [00:08:00] abstractions.[00:08:00] So those are kinda the bigger existential questions we ask. Another thing that is very different this time than in the history of computer sciences is. In the past, if you raised money, then you basically had to wait for engineering to catch up. Which famously doesn't scale like the mythical mammoth. It take a very long time.[00:08:18] But like that's not the case here. Like a model company can raise money and drop a model in a, in a year, and it's better, right? And, and it does it with a team of 20 people or 10 people. So this type of like money entering a company and then producing something that has demand and growth right away and using that to raise more money is a very different capital flywheel than we've ever seen before.[00:08:39] And I think everybody's trying to understand what the consequences are. So I think it's less about like. Big companies and growth and this, and more about these more systemic questions that we actually don't have answers to.[00:08:49] Alessio: Yeah, like at Kernel Labs, one of our ideas is like if you had unlimited money to spend productively to turn tokens into products, like the whole early stage [00:09:00] market is very different because today you're investing X amount of capital to win a deal because of price structure and whatnot, and you're kind of pot committing.[00:09:07] Yeah. To a certain strategy for a certain amount of time. Yeah. But if you could like iteratively spin out companies and products and just throw, I, I wanna spend a million dollar of inference today and get a product out tomorrow.[00:09:18] swyx: Yeah.[00:09:19] Alessio: Like, we should get to the point where like the friction of like token to product is so low that you can do this and then you can change the Right, the early stage venture model to be much more iterative.[00:09:30] And then every round is like either 100 k of inference or like a hundred million from a 16 Z. There's no, there's no like $8 million C round anymore. Right.[00:09:38] When Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem[00:09:38] Martin Casado: But, but, but, but there's a, there's a, the, an industry structural question that we don't know the answer to, which involves the frontier models, which is, let's take.[00:09:48] Anthropic it. Let's say Anthropic has a state-of-the-art model that has some large percentage of market share. And let's say that, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a company's building smaller models [00:10:00] that, you know, use the bigger model in the background, open 4.5, but they add value on top of that. Now, if Anthropic can raise three times more.[00:10:10] Every subsequent round, they probably can raise more money than the entire app ecosystem that's built on top of it. And if that's the case, they can expand beyond everything built on top of it. It's like imagine like a star that's just kind of expanding, so there could be a systemic. There could be a, a systemic situation where the soda models can raise so much money that they can out pay anybody that bills on top of ‘em, which would be something I don't think we've ever seen before just because we were so bottlenecked in engineering, and this is a very open question.[00:10:41] swyx: Yeah. It's, it is almost like bitter lesson applied to the startup industry.[00:10:45] Martin Casado: Yeah, a hundred percent. It literally becomes an issue of like raise capital, turn that directly into growth. Use that to raise three times more. Exactly. And if you can keep doing that, you literally can outspend any company that's built the, not any company.[00:10:57] You can outspend the aggregate of companies on top of [00:11:00] you and therefore you'll necessarily take their share, which is crazy.[00:11:02] swyx: Would you say that kind of happens in character? Is that the, the sort of postmortem on. What happened?[00:11:10] Sarah Wang: Um,[00:11:10] Martin Casado: no.[00:11:12] Sarah Wang: Yeah, because I think so,[00:11:13] swyx: I mean the actual postmortem is, he wanted to go back to Google.[00:11:15] Exactly. But like[00:11:18] Martin Casado: that's another difference that[00:11:19] Sarah Wang: you said[00:11:21] Martin Casado: it. We should talk, we should actually talk about that.[00:11:22] swyx: Yeah,[00:11:22] Sarah Wang: that's[00:11:23] swyx: Go for it. Take it. Take,[00:11:23] Sarah Wang: yeah.[00:11:24] Character.AI, Founder Goals (AGI vs Product), and GPU Allocation Tradeoffs[00:11:24] Sarah Wang: I was gonna say, I think, um. The, the, the character thing raises actually a different issue, which actually the Frontier Labs will face as well. So we'll see how they handle it.[00:11:34] But, um, so we invest in character in January, 2023, which feels like eons ago, I mean, three years ago. Feels like lifetimes ago. But, um, and then they, uh, did the IP licensing deal with Google in August, 2020. Uh, four. And so, um, you know, at the time, no, you know, he's talked publicly about this, right? He wanted to Google wouldn't let him put out products in the world.[00:11:56] That's obviously changed drastically. But, um, he went to go do [00:12:00] that. Um, but he had a product attached. The goal was, I mean, it's Nome Shair, he wanted to get to a GI. That was always his personal goal. But, you know, I think through collecting data, right, and this sort of very human use case, that the character product.[00:12:13] Originally was and still is, um, was one of the vehicles to do that. Um, I think the real reason that, you know. I if you think about the, the stress that any company feels before, um, you ultimately going one way or the other is sort of this a GI versus product. Um, and I think a lot of the big, I think, you know, opening eyes, feeling that, um, anthropic if they haven't started, you know, felt it, certainly given the success of their products, they may start to feel that soon.[00:12:39] And the real. I think there's real trade-offs, right? It's like how many, when you think about GPUs, that's a limited resource. Where do you allocate the GPUs? Is it toward the product? Is it toward new re research? Right? Is it, or long-term research, is it toward, um, n you know, near to midterm research? And so, um, in a case where you're resource constrained, um, [00:13:00] of course there's this fundraising game you can play, right?[00:13:01] But the fund, the market was very different back in 2023 too. Um. I think the best researchers in the world have this dilemma of, okay, I wanna go all in on a GI, but it's the product usage revenue flywheel that keeps the revenue in the house to power all the GPUs to get to a GI. And so it does make, um, you know, I think it sets up an interesting dilemma for any startup that has trouble raising up until that level, right?[00:13:27] And certainly if you don't have that progress, you can't continue this fly, you know, fundraising flywheel.[00:13:32] Martin Casado: I would say that because, ‘cause we're keeping track of all of the things that are different, right? Like, you know, venture growth and uh, app infra and one of the ones is definitely the personalities of the founders.[00:13:45] It's just very different this time I've been. Been doing this for a decade and I've been doing startups for 20 years. And so, um, I mean a lot of people start this to do a GI and we've never had like a unified North star that I recall in the same [00:14:00] way. Like people built companies to start companies in the past.[00:14:02] Like that was what it was. Like I would create an internet company, I would create infrastructure company, like it's kind of more engineering builders and this is kind of a different. You know, mentality. And some companies have harnessed that incredibly well because their direction is so obviously on the path to what somebody would consider a GI, but others have not.[00:14:20] And so like there is always this tension with personnel. And so I think we're seeing more kind of founder movement.[00:14:27] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:14:27] Martin Casado: You know, as a fraction of founders than we've ever seen. I mean, maybe since like, I don't know the time of like Shockly and the trade DUR aid or something like that. Way back in the beginning of the industry, I, it's a very, very.[00:14:38] Unusual time of personnel.[00:14:39] Sarah Wang: Totally.[00:14:40] Talent Wars, Mega-Comp, and the Rise of Acquihire M&A[00:14:40] Sarah Wang: And it, I think it's exacerbated by the fact that talent wars, I mean, every industry has talent wars, but not at this magnitude, right? No. Yeah. Very rarely can you see someone get poached for $5 billion. That's hard to compete with. And then secondly, if you're a founder in ai, you could fart and it would be on the front page of, you know, the information these days.[00:14:59] And so there's [00:15:00] sort of this fishbowl effect that I think adds to the deep anxiety that, that these AI founders are feeling.[00:15:06] Martin Casado: Hmm.[00:15:06] swyx: Uh, yes. I mean, just on, uh, briefly comment on the founder, uh, the sort of. Talent wars thing. I feel like 2025 was just like a blip. Like I, I don't know if we'll see that again.[00:15:17] ‘cause meta built the team. Like, I don't know if, I think, I think they're kind of done and like, who's gonna pay more than meta? I, I don't know.[00:15:23] Martin Casado: I, I agree. So it feels so, it feel, it feels this way to me too. It's like, it is like, basically Zuckerberg kind of came out swinging and then now he's kind of back to building.[00:15:30] Yeah,[00:15:31] swyx: yeah. You know, you gotta like pay up to like assemble team to rush the job, whatever. But then now, now you like you, you made your choices and now they got a ship.[00:15:38] Martin Casado: I mean, the, the o other side of that is like, you know, like we're, we're actually in the job hiring market. We've got 600 people here. I hire all the time.[00:15:44] I've got three open recs if anybody's interested, that's listening to this for investor. Yeah, on, on the team, like on the investing side of the team, like, and, um, a lot of the people we talk to have acting, you know, active, um, offers for 10 million a year or something like that. And like, you know, and we pay really, [00:16:00] really well.[00:16:00] And just to see what's out on the market is really, is really remarkable. And so I would just say it's actually, so you're right, like the really flashy one, like I will get someone for, you know, a billion dollars, but like the inflated, um, uh, trickles down. Yeah, it is still very active today. I mean,[00:16:18] Sarah Wang: yeah, you could be an L five and get an offer in the tens of millions.[00:16:22] Okay. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. It's so I think you're right that it felt like a blip. I hope you're right. Um, but I think it's been, the steady state is now, I think got pulled up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll pull up for[00:16:31] Martin Casado: sure. Yeah.[00:16:32] Alessio: Yeah. And I think that's breaking the early stage founder math too. I think before a lot of people would be like, well, maybe I should just go be a founder instead of like getting paid.[00:16:39] Yeah. 800 KA million at Google. But if I'm getting paid. Five, 6 million. That's different but[00:16:45] Martin Casado: on. But on the other hand, there's more strategic money than we've ever seen historically, right? Mm-hmm. And so, yep. The economics, the, the, the, the calculus on the economics is very different in a number of ways. And, uh, it's crazy.[00:16:58] It's cra it's causing like a, [00:17:00] a, a, a ton of change in confusion in the market. Some very positive, sub negative, like, so for example, the other side of the, um. The co-founder, like, um, acquisition, you know, mark Zuckerberg poaching someone for a lot of money is like, we were actually seeing historic amount of m and a for basically acquihires, right?[00:17:20] That you like, you know, really good outcomes from a venture perspective that are effective acquihires, right? So I would say it's probably net positive from the investment standpoint, even though it seems from the headlines to be very disruptive in a negative way.[00:17:33] Alessio: Yeah.[00:17:33] What's Underfunded: Boring Software, Robotics Skepticism, and Custom Silicon Economics[00:17:33] Alessio: Um, let's talk maybe about what's not being invested in, like maybe some interesting ideas that you would see more people build or it, it seems in a way, you know, as ycs getting more popular, it's like access getting more popular.[00:17:47] There's a startup school path that a lot of founders take and they know what's hot in the VC circles and they know what gets funded. Uh, and there's maybe not as much risk appetite for. Things outside of that. Um, I'm curious if you feel [00:18:00] like that's true and what are maybe, uh, some of the areas, uh, that you think are under discussed?[00:18:06] Martin Casado: I mean, I actually think that we've taken our eye off the ball in a lot of like, just traditional, you know, software companies. Um, so like, I mean. You know, I think right now there's almost a barbell, like you're like the hot thing on X, you're deep tech.[00:18:21] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:18:22] Martin Casado: Right. But I, you know, I feel like there's just kind of a long, you know, list of like good.[00:18:28] Good companies that will be around for a long time in very large markets. Say you're building a database, you know, say you're building, um, you know, kind of monitoring or logging or tooling or whatever. There's some good companies out there right now, but like, they have a really hard time getting, um, the attention of investors.[00:18:43] And it's almost become a meme, right? Which is like, if you're not basically growing from zero to a hundred in a year, you're not interesting, which is just, is the silliest thing to say. I mean, think of yourself as like an introvert person, like, like your personal money, right? Mm-hmm. So. Your personal money, will you put it in the stock market at 7% or you put it in this company growing five x in a very large [00:19:00] market?[00:19:00] Of course you can put it in the company five x. So it's just like we say these stupid things, like if you're not going from zero to a hundred, but like those, like who knows what the margins of those are mean. Clearly these are good investments. True for anybody, right? True. Like our LPs want whatever.[00:19:12] Three x net over, you know, the life cycle of a fund, right? So a, a company in a big market growing five X is a great investment. We'd, everybody would be happy with these returns, but we've got this kind of mania on these, these strong growths. And so I would say that that's probably the most underinvested sector.[00:19:28] Right now.[00:19:29] swyx: Boring software, boring enterprise software.[00:19:31] Martin Casado: Traditional. Really good company.[00:19:33] swyx: No, no AI here.[00:19:34] Martin Casado: No. Like boring. Well, well, the AI of course is pulling them into use cases. Yeah, but that's not what they're, they're not on the token path, right? Yeah. Let's just say that like they're software, but they're not on the token path.[00:19:41] Like these are like they're great investments from any definition except for like random VC on Twitter saying VC on x, saying like, it's not growing fast enough. What do you[00:19:52] Sarah Wang: think? Yeah, maybe I'll answer a slightly different. Question, but adjacent to what you asked, um, which is maybe an area that we're not, uh, investing [00:20:00] right now that I think is a question and we're spending a lot of time in regardless of whether we pull the trigger or not.[00:20:05] Um, and it would probably be on the hardware side, actually. Robotics, right? And the robotics side. Robotics. Right. Which is, it's, I don't wanna say that it's not getting funding ‘cause it's clearly, uh, it's, it's sort of non-consensus to almost not invest in robotics at this point. But, um, we spent a lot of time in that space and I think for us, we just haven't seen the chat GPT moment.[00:20:22] Happen on the hardware side. Um, and the funding going into it feels like it's already. Taking that for granted.[00:20:30] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. But we also went through the drone, you know, um, there's a zip line right, right out there. What's that? Oh yeah, there's a zip line. Yeah. What the drone, what the av And like one of the takeaways is when it comes to hardware, um, most companies will end up verticalizing.[00:20:46] Like if you're. If you're investing in a robot company for an A for agriculture, you're investing in an ag company. ‘cause that's the competition and that's surprising. And that's supply chain. And if you're doing it for mining, that's mining. And so the ad team does a lot of that type of stuff ‘cause they actually set up to [00:21:00] diligence that type of work.[00:21:01] But for like horizontal technology investing, there's very little when it comes to robots just because it's so fit for, for purpose. And so we kinda like to look at software. Solutions or horizontal solutions like applied intuition. Clearly from the AV wave deep map, clearly from the AV wave, I would say scale AI was actually a horizontal one for That's fair, you know, for robotics early on.[00:21:23] And so that sort of thing we're very, very interested. But the actual like robot interacting with the world is probably better for different team. Agree.[00:21:30] Alessio: Yeah, I'm curious who these teams are supposed to be that invest in them. I feel like everybody's like, yeah, robotics, it's important and like people should invest in it.[00:21:38] But then when you look at like the numbers, like the capital requirements early on versus like the moment of, okay, this is actually gonna work. Let's keep investing. That seems really hard to predict in a way that is not,[00:21:49] Martin Casado: I think co, CO two, kla, gc, I mean these are all invested in in Harvard companies. He just, you know, and [00:22:00] listen, I mean, it could work this time for sure.[00:22:01] Right? I mean if Elon's doing it, he's like, right. Just, just the fact that Elon's doing it means that there's gonna be a lot of capital and a lot of attempts for a long period of time. So that alone maybe suggests that we should just be investing in robotics just ‘cause you have this North star who's Elon with a humanoid and that's gonna like basically willing into being an industry.[00:22:17] Um, but we've just historically found like. We're a huge believer that this is gonna happen. We just don't feel like we're in a good position to diligence these things. ‘cause again, robotics companies tend to be vertical. You really have to understand the market they're being sold into. Like that's like that competitive equilibrium with a human being is what's important.[00:22:34] It's not like the core tech and like we're kind of more horizontal core tech type investors. And this is Sarah and I. Yeah, the ad team is different. They can actually do these types of things.[00:22:42] swyx: Uh, just to clarify, AD stands for[00:22:44] Martin Casado: American Dynamism.[00:22:45] swyx: Alright. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I actually, I do have a related question that, first of all, I wanna acknowledge also just on the, on the chip side.[00:22:51] Yeah. I, I recall a podcast that where you were on, i, I, I think it was the a CC podcast, uh, about two or three years ago where you, where you suddenly said [00:23:00] something, which really stuck in my head about how at some point, at some point kind of scale it makes sense to. Build a custom aic Yes. For per run.[00:23:07] Martin Casado: Yes.[00:23:07] It's crazy. Yeah.[00:23:09] swyx: We're here and I think you, you estimated 500 billion, uh, something.[00:23:12] Martin Casado: No, no, no. A billion, a billion dollar training run of $1 billion training run. It makes sense to actually do a custom meic if you can do it in time. The question now is timelines. Yeah, but not money because just, just, just rough math.[00:23:22] If it's a billion dollar training. Then the inference for that model has to be over a billion, otherwise it won't be solvent. So let's assume it's, if you could save 20%, which you could save much more than that with an ASIC 20%, that's $200 million. You can tape out a chip for $200 million. Right? So now you can literally like justify economically, not timeline wise.[00:23:41] That's a different issue. An ASIC per model, which[00:23:44] swyx: is because that, that's how much we leave on the table every single time. We, we, we do like generic Nvidia.[00:23:48] Martin Casado: Exactly. Exactly. No, it, it is actually much more than that. You could probably get, you know, a factor of two, which would be 500 million.[00:23:54] swyx: Typical MFU would be like 50.[00:23:55] Yeah, yeah. And that's good.[00:23:57] Martin Casado: Exactly. Yeah. Hundred[00:23:57] swyx: percent. Um, so, so, yeah, and I mean, and I [00:24:00] just wanna acknowledge like, here we are in, in, in 2025 and opening eyes confirming like Broadcom and all the other like custom silicon deals, which is incredible. I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there's, there's a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.[00:24:17] Yeah. Uh, move TSMC here, if that's possible. Um, how much overlap is there from ad[00:24:23] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:24:23] swyx: To, I guess, growth and, uh, investing in particularly like, you know, US AI companies that are strongly bounded by their compute.[00:24:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, I would view, I would view AD as more as a market segmentation than like a mission, right?[00:24:37] So the market segmentation is, it has kind of regulatory compliance issues or government, you know, sale or it deals with like hardware. I mean, they're just set up to, to, to, to, to. To diligence those types of companies. So it's a more of a market segmentation thing. I would say the entire firm. You know, which has been since it is been intercepted, you know, has geographical biases, right?[00:24:58] I mean, for the longest time we're like, you [00:25:00] know, bay Area is gonna be like, great, where the majority of the dollars go. Yeah. And, and listen, there, there's actually a lot of compounding effects for having a geographic bias. Right. You know, everybody's in the same place. You've got an ecosystem, you're there, you've got presence, you've got a network.[00:25:12] Um, and, uh, I mean, I would say the Bay area's very much back. You know, like I, I remember during pre COVID, like it was like almost Crypto had kind of. Pulled startups away. Miami from the Bay Area. Miami, yeah. Yeah. New York was, you know, because it's so close to finance, came up like Los Angeles had a moment ‘cause it was so close to consumer, but now it's kind of come back here.[00:25:29] And so I would say, you know, we tend to be very Bay area focused historically, even though of course we've asked all over the world. And then I would say like, if you take the ring out, you know, one more, it's gonna be the US of course, because we know it very well. And then one more is gonna be getting us and its allies and Yeah.[00:25:44] And it goes from there.[00:25:45] Sarah Wang: Yeah,[00:25:45] Martin Casado: sorry.[00:25:46] Sarah Wang: No, no. I agree. I think from a, but I think from the intern that that's sort of like where the companies are headquartered. Maybe your questions on supply chain and customer base. Uh, I, I would say our customers are, are, our companies are fairly international from that perspective.[00:25:59] Like they're selling [00:26:00] globally, right? They have global supply chains in some cases.[00:26:03] Martin Casado: I would say also the stickiness is very different.[00:26:05] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:26:05] Martin Casado: Historically between venture and growth, like there's so much company building in venture, so much so like hiring the next PM. Introducing the customer, like all of that stuff.[00:26:15] Like of course we're just gonna be stronger where we have our network and we've been doing business for 20 years. I've been in the Bay Area for 25 years, so clearly I'm just more effective here than I would be somewhere else. Um, where I think, I think for some of the later stage rounds, the companies don't need that much help.[00:26:30] They're already kind of pretty mature historically, so like they can kind of be everywhere. So there's kind of less of that stickiness. This is different in the AI time. I mean, Sarah is now the, uh, chief of staff of like half the AI companies in, uh, in the Bay Area right now. She's like, ops Ninja Biz, Devrel, BizOps.[00:26:48] swyx: Are, are you, are you finding much AI automation in your work? Like what, what is your stack.[00:26:53] Sarah Wang: Oh my, in my personal stack.[00:26:54] swyx: I mean, because like, uh, by the way, it's the, the, the reason for this is it is triggering, uh, yeah. We, like, I'm hiring [00:27:00] ops, ops people. Um, a lot of ponders I know are also hiring ops people and I'm just, you know, it's opportunity Since you're, you're also like basically helping out with ops with a lot of companies.[00:27:09] What are people doing these days? Because it's still very manual as far as I can tell.[00:27:13] Sarah Wang: Hmm. Yeah. I think the things that we help with are pretty network based, um, in that. It's sort of like, Hey, how do do I shortcut this process? Well, let's connect you to the right person. So there's not quite an AI workflow for that.[00:27:26] I will say as a growth investor, Claude Cowork is pretty interesting. Yeah. Like for the first time, you can actually get one shot data analysis. Right. Which, you know, if you're gonna do a customer database, analyze a cohort retention, right? That's just stuff that you had to do by hand before. And our team, the other, it was like midnight and the three of us were playing with Claude Cowork.[00:27:47] We gave it a raw file. Boom. Perfectly accurate. We checked the numbers. It was amazing. That was my like, aha moment. That sounds so boring. But you know, that's, that's the kind of thing that a growth investor is like, [00:28:00] you know, slaving away on late at night. Um, done in a few seconds.[00:28:03] swyx: Yeah. You gotta wonder what the whole, like, philanthropic labs, which is like their new sort of products studio.[00:28:10] Yeah. What would that be worth as an independent, uh, startup? You know, like a[00:28:14] Martin Casado: lot.[00:28:14] Sarah Wang: Yeah, true.[00:28:16] swyx: Yeah. You[00:28:16] Martin Casado: gotta hand it to them. They've been executing incredibly well.[00:28:19] swyx: Yeah. I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real. Um, pedal to the metal, whatever the, the, the phrase is, is when they start coming after consumer with, uh, against OpenAI and like that is like red alert at Open ai.[00:28:35] Oh, I[00:28:35] Martin Casado: think they've been pretty clear. They're enterprise focused.[00:28:37] swyx: They have been, but like they've been free. Here's[00:28:40] Martin Casado: care publicly,[00:28:40] swyx: it's enterprise focused. It's coding. Right. Yeah.[00:28:43] AI Labs vs Startups: Disruption, Undercutting & the Innovator's Dilemma[00:28:43] swyx: And then, and, but here's cloud, cloud, cowork, and, and here's like, well, we, uh, they, apparently they're running Instagram ads for Claudia.[00:28:50] I, on, you know, for, for people on, I get them all the time. Right. And so, like,[00:28:54] Martin Casado: uh,[00:28:54] swyx: it, it's kind of like this, the disruption thing of, uh, you know. Mo Open has been doing, [00:29:00] consumer been doing the, just pursuing general intelligence in every mo modality, and here's a topic that only focus on this thing, but now they're sort of undercutting and doing the whole innovator's dilemma thing on like everything else.[00:29:11] Martin Casado: It's very[00:29:11] swyx: interesting.[00:29:12] Martin Casado: Yeah, I mean there's, there's a very open que so for me there's like, do you know that meme where there's like the guy in the path and there's like a path this way? There's a path this way. Like one which way Western man. Yeah. Yeah.[00:29:23] Two Futures for AI: Infinite Market vs AGI Oligopoly[00:29:23] Martin Casado: And for me, like, like all the entire industry kind of like hinges on like two potential futures.[00:29:29] So in, in one potential future, um, the market is infinitely large. There's perverse economies of scale. ‘cause as soon as you put a model out there, like it kind of sublimates and all the other models catch up and like, it's just like software's being rewritten and fractured all over the place and there's tons of upside and it just grows.[00:29:48] And then there's another path which is like, well. Maybe these models actually generalize really well, and all you have to do is train them with three times more money. That's all you have to [00:30:00] do, and it'll just consume everything beyond it. And if that's the case, like you end up with basically an oligopoly for everything, like, you know mm-hmm.[00:30:06] Because they're perfectly general and like, so this would be like the, the a GI path would be like, these are perfectly general. They can do everything. And this one is like, this is actually normal software. The universe is complicated. You've got, and nobody knows the answer.[00:30:18] The Economics Reality Check: Gross Margins, Training Costs & Borrowing Against the Future[00:30:18] Martin Casado: My belief is if you actually look at the numbers of these companies, so generally if you look at the numbers of these companies, if you look at like the amount they're making and how much they, they spent training the last model, they're gross margin positive.[00:30:30] You're like, oh, that's really working. But if you look at like. The current training that they're doing for the next model, their gross margin negative. So part of me thinks that a lot of ‘em are kind of borrowing against the future and that's gonna have to slow down. It's gonna catch up to them at some point in time, but we don't really know.[00:30:47] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:30:47] Martin Casado: Does that make sense? Like, I mean, it could be, it could be the case that the only reason this is working is ‘cause they can raise that next round and they can train that next model. ‘cause these models have such a short. Life. And so at some point in time, like, you know, they won't be able to [00:31:00] raise that next round for the next model and then things will kind of converge and fragment again.[00:31:03] But right now it's not.[00:31:04] Sarah Wang: Totally. I think the other, by the way, just, um, a meta point. I think the other lesson from the last three years is, and we talk about this all the time ‘cause we're on this. Twitter X bubble. Um, cool. But, you know, if you go back to, let's say March, 2024, that period, it felt like a, I think an open source model with an, like a, you know, benchmark leading capability was sort of launching on a daily basis at that point.[00:31:27] And, um, and so that, you know, that's one period. Suddenly it's sort of like open source takes over the world. There's gonna be a plethora. It's not an oligopoly, you know, if you fast, you know, if you, if you rewind time even before that GPT-4 was number one for. Nine months, 10 months. It's a long time. Right.[00:31:44] Um, and of course now we're in this era where it feels like an oligopoly, um, maybe some very steady state shifts and, and you know, it could look like this in the future too, but it just, it's so hard to call. And I think the thing that keeps, you know, us up at [00:32:00] night in, in a good way and bad way, is that the capability progress is actually not slowing down.[00:32:06] And so until that happens, right, like you don't know what's gonna look like.[00:32:09] Martin Casado: But I, I would, I would say for sure it's not converged, like for sure, like the systemic capital flows have not converged, meaning right now it's still borrowing against the future to subsidize growth currently, which you can do that for a period of time.[00:32:23] But, but you know, at the end, at some point the market will rationalize that and just nobody knows what that will look like.[00:32:29] Alessio: Yeah.[00:32:29] Martin Casado: Or, or like the drop in price of compute will, will, will save them. Who knows?[00:32:34] Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think the models need to ask them to, to specific tasks. You know? It's like, okay, now Opus 4.5 might be a GI at some specific task, and now you can like depreciate the model over a longer time.[00:32:45] I think now, now, right now there's like no old model.[00:32:47] Martin Casado: No, but let, but lemme just change that mental, that's, that used to be my mental model. Lemme just change it a little bit.[00:32:53] Capital as a Weapon vs Task Saturation: Where Real Enterprise Value Gets Built[00:32:53] Martin Casado: If you can raise three times, if you can raise more than the aggregate of anybody that uses your models, that doesn't even matter.[00:32:59] It doesn't [00:33:00] even matter. See what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Yeah. So, so I have an API Business. My API business is 60% margin, or 70% margin, or 80% margin is a high margin business. So I know what everybody is using. If I can raise more money than the aggregate of everybody that's using it, I will consume them whether I'm a GI or not.[00:33:14] And I will know if they're using it ‘cause they're using it. And like, unlike in the past where engineering stops me from doing that.[00:33:21] Alessio: Mm-hmm.[00:33:21] Martin Casado: It is very straightforward. You just train. So I also thought it was kind of like, you must ask the code a GI, general, general, general. But I think there's also just a possibility that the, that the capital markets will just give them the, the, the ammunition to just go after everybody on top of ‘em.[00:33:36] Sarah Wang: I, I do wonder though, to your point, um, if there's a certain task that. Getting marginally better isn't actually that much better. Like we've asked them to it, to, you know, we can call it a GI or whatever, you know, actually, Ali Goi talks about this, like we're already at a GI for a lot of functions in the enterprise.[00:33:50] Um. That's probably those for those tasks, you probably could build very specific companies that focus on just getting as much value out of that task that isn't [00:34:00] coming from the model itself. There's probably a rich enterprise business to be built there. I mean, could be wrong on that, but there's a lot of interesting examples.[00:34:08] So, right, if you're looking the legal profession or, or whatnot, and maybe that's not a great one ‘cause the models are getting better on that front too, but just something where it's a bit saturated, then the value comes from. Services. It comes from implementation, right? It comes from all these things that actually make it useful to the end customer.[00:34:24] Martin Casado: Sorry, what am I, one more thing I think is, is underused in all of this is like, to what extent every task is a GI complete.[00:34:31] Sarah Wang: Mm-hmm.[00:34:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. I code every day. It's so fun.[00:34:35] Sarah Wang: That's a core question. Yeah.[00:34:36] Martin Casado: And like. When I'm talking to these models, it's not just code. I mean, it's everything, right? Like I, you know, like it's,[00:34:43] swyx: it's healthcare.[00:34:44] It's,[00:34:44] Martin Casado: I mean, it's[00:34:44] swyx: Mele,[00:34:45] Martin Casado: but it's every, it is exactly that. Like, yeah, that's[00:34:47] Sarah Wang: great support. Yeah.[00:34:48] Martin Casado: It's everything. Like I'm asking these models to, yeah, to understand compliance. I'm asking these models to go search the web. I'm asking these models to talk about things I know in the history, like it's having a full conversation with me while I, I engineer, and so it could be [00:35:00] the case that like, mm-hmm.[00:35:01] The most a, you know, a GI complete, like I'm not an a GI guy. Like I think that's, you know, but like the most a GI complete model will is win independent of the task. And we don't know the answer to that one either.[00:35:11] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:12] Martin Casado: But it seems to me that like, listen, codex in my experience is for sure better than Opus 4.5 for coding.[00:35:18] Like it finds the hardest bugs that I work in with. Like, it is, you know. The smartest developers. I don't work on it. It's great. Um, but I think Opus 4.5 is actually very, it's got a great bedside manner and it really, and it, it really matters if you're building something very complex because like, it really, you know, like you're, you're, you're a partner and a brainstorming partner for somebody.[00:35:38] And I think we don't discuss enough how every task kind of has that quality.[00:35:42] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:35:43] Martin Casado: And what does that mean to like capital investment and like frontier models and Submodels? Yeah.[00:35:47] Why “Coding Models” Keep Collapsing into Generalists (Reasoning vs Taste)[00:35:47] Martin Casado: Like what happened to all the special coding models? Like, none of ‘em worked right. So[00:35:51] Alessio: some of them, they didn't even get released.[00:35:53] Magical[00:35:54] Martin Casado: Devrel. There's a whole, there's a whole host. We saw a bunch of them and like there's this whole theory that like, there could be, and [00:36:00] I think one of the conclusions is, is like there's no such thing as a coding model,[00:36:04] Alessio: you know?[00:36:04] Martin Casado: Like, that's not a thing. Like you're talking to another human being and it's, it's good at coding, but like it's gotta be good at everything.[00:36:10] swyx: Uh, minor disagree only because I, I'm pretty like, have pretty high confidence that basically open eye will always release a GPT five and a GT five codex. Like that's the code's. Yeah. The way I call it is one for raisin, one for Tiz. Um, and, and then like someone internal open, it was like, yeah, that's a good way to frame it.[00:36:32] Martin Casado: That's so funny.[00:36:33] swyx: Uh, but maybe it, maybe it collapses down to reason and that's it. It's not like a hundred dimensions doesn't life. Yeah. It's two dimensions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and exactly. Beside manner versus coding. Yeah.[00:36:43] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:36:44] swyx: It's, yeah.[00:36:46] Martin Casado: I, I think for, for any, it's hilarious. For any, for anybody listening to this for, for, for, I mean, for you, like when, when you're like coding or using these models for something like that.[00:36:52] Like actually just like be aware of how much of the interaction has nothing to do with coding and it just turns out to be a large portion of it. And so like, you're, I [00:37:00] think like, like the best Soto ish model. You know, it is going to remain very important no matter what the task is.[00:37:06] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:07] What He's Actually Coding: Gaussian Splats, Spark.js & 3D Scene Rendering Demos[00:37:07] swyx: Uh, speaking of coding, uh, I, I'm gonna be cheeky and ask like, what actually are you coding?[00:37:11] Because obviously you, you could code anything and you are obviously a busy investor and a manager of the good. Giant team. Um, what are you calling?[00:37:18] Martin Casado: I help, um, uh, FEFA at World Labs. Uh, it's one of the investments and um, and they're building a foundation model that creates 3D scenes.[00:37:27] swyx: Yeah, we had it on the pod.[00:37:28] Yeah. Yeah,[00:37:28] Martin Casado: yeah. And so these 3D scenes are Gaussian splats, just by the way that kind of AI works. And so like, you can reconstruct a scene better with, with, with radiance feels than with meshes. ‘cause like they don't really have topology. So, so they, they, they produce each. Beautiful, you know, 3D rendered scenes that are Gaussian splats, but the actual industry support for Gaussian splats isn't great.[00:37:50] It's just never, you know, it's always been meshes and like, things like unreal use meshes. And so I work on a open source library called Spark js, which is a. Uh, [00:38:00] a JavaScript rendering layer ready for Gaussian splats. And it's just because, you know, um, you, you, you need that support and, and right now there's kind of a three js moment that's all meshes and so like, it's become kind of the default in three Js ecosystem.[00:38:13] As part of that to kind of exercise the library, I just build a whole bunch of cool demos. So if you see me on X, you see like all my demos and all the world building, but all of that is just to exercise this, this library that I work on. ‘cause it's actually a very tough algorithmics problem to actually scale a library that much.[00:38:29] And just so you know, this is ancient history now, but 30 years ago I paid for undergrad, you know, working on game engines in college in the late nineties. So I've got actually a back and it's very old background, but I actually have a background in this and so a lot of it's fun. You know, but, but the, the, the, the whole goal is just for this rendering library to, to,[00:38:47] Sarah Wang: are you one of the most active contributors?[00:38:49] The, their GitHub[00:38:50] Martin Casado: spark? Yes.[00:38:51] Sarah Wang: Yeah, yeah.[00:38:51] Martin Casado: There's only two of us there, so, yes. No, so by the way, so the, the pri The pri, yeah. Yeah. So the primary developer is a [00:39:00] guy named Andres Quist, who's an absolute genius. He and I did our, our PhDs together. And so like, um, we studied for constant Quas together. It was almost like hanging out with an old friend, you know?[00:39:09] And so like. So he, he's the core, core guy. I did mostly kind of, you know, the side I run venture fund.[00:39:14] swyx: It's amazing. Like five years ago you would not have done any of this. And it brought you back[00:39:19] Martin Casado: the act, the Activ energy, you're still back. Energy was so high because you had to learn all the framework b******t.[00:39:23] Man, I f*****g used to hate that. And so like, now I don't have to deal with that. I can like focus on the algorithmics so I can focus on the scaling and I,[00:39:29] swyx: yeah. Yeah.[00:39:29] LLMs vs Spatial Intelligence + How to Value World Labs' 3D Foundation Model[00:39:29] swyx: And then, uh, I'll observe one irony and then I'll ask a serious investor question, uh, which is like, the irony is FFE actually doesn't believe that LMS can lead us to spatial intelligence.[00:39:37] And here you are using LMS to like help like achieve spatial intelligence. I just see, I see some like disconnect in there.[00:39:45] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think, I think what she would say is LLMs are great to help with coding.[00:39:51] swyx: Yes.[00:39:51] Martin Casado: But like, that's very different than a model that actually like provides, they, they'll never have the[00:39:56] swyx: spatial inte[00:39:56] Martin Casado: issues.[00:39:56] And listen, our brains clearly listen, our brains, brains clearly have [00:40:00] both our, our brains clearly have a language reasoning section and they clearly have a spatial reasoning section. I mean, it's just, you know, these are two pretty independent problems.[00:40:07] swyx: Okay. And you, you, like, I, I would say that the, the one data point I recently had, uh, against it is the DeepMind, uh, IMO Gold, where, so, uh, typically the, the typical answer is that this is where you start going down the neuros symbolic path, right?[00:40:21] Like one, uh, sort of very sort of abstract reasoning thing and one form, formal thing. Um, and that's what. DeepMind had in 2024 with alpha proof, alpha geometry, and now they just use deep think and just extended thinking tokens. And it's one model and it's, and it's in LM.[00:40:36] Martin Casado: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:40:37] swyx: And so that, that was my indication of like, maybe you don't need a separate system.[00:40:42] Martin Casado: Yeah. So, so let me step back. I mean, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, these things are like nodes in a graph with weights on them. Right. You know, like it can be modeled like if you, if you distill it down. But let me just talk about the two different substrates. Let's, let me put you in a dark room.[00:40:56] Like totally black room. And then let me just [00:41:00] describe how you exit it. Like to your left, there's a table like duck below this thing, right? I mean like the chances that you're gonna like not run into something are very low. Now let me like turn on the light and you actually see, and you can do distance and you know how far something away is and like where it is or whatever.[00:41:17] Then you can do it, right? Like language is not the right primitives to describe. The universe because it's not exact enough. So that's all Faye, Faye is talking about. When it comes to like spatial reasoning, it's like you actually have to know that this is three feet far, like that far away. It is curved.[00:41:37] You have to understand, you know, the, like the actual movement through space.[00:41:40] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:40] Martin Casado: So I do, I listen, I do think at the end of these models are definitely converging as far as models, but there's, there's, there's different representations of problems you're solving. One is language. Which, you know, that would be like describing to somebody like what to do.[00:41:51] And the other one is actually just showing them and the space reasoning is just showing them.[00:41:55] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it, got it. Uh, the, in the investor question was on, on, well labs [00:42:00] is, well, like, how do I value something like this? What, what, what work does the, do you do? I'm just like, Fefe is awesome.[00:42:07] Justin's awesome. And you know, the other two co-founder, co-founders, but like the, the, the tech, everyone's building cool tech. But like, what's the value of the tech? And this is the fundamental question[00:42:16] Martin Casado: of, well, let, let, just like these, let me just maybe give you a rough sketch on the diffusion models. I actually love to hear Sarah because I'm a venture for, you know, so like, ventures always, always like kind of wild west type[00:42:24] swyx: stuff.[00:42:24] You, you, you, you paid a dream and she has to like, actually[00:42:28] Martin Casado: I'm gonna say I'm gonna mar to reality, so I'm gonna say the venture for you. And she can be like, okay, you a little kid. Yeah. So like, so, so these diffusion models literally. Create something for, for almost nothing. And something that the, the world has found to be very valuable in the past, in our real markets, right?[00:42:45] Like, like a 2D image. I mean, that's been an entire market. People value them. It takes a human being a long time to create it, right? I mean, to create a, you know, a, to turn me into a whatever, like an image would cost a hundred bucks in an hour. The inference cost [00:43:00] us a hundredth of a penny, right? So we've seen this with speech in very successful companies.[00:43:03] We've seen this with 2D image. We've seen this with movies. Right? Now, think about 3D scene. I mean, I mean, when's Grand Theft Auto coming out? It's been six, what? It's been 10 years. I mean, how, how like, but hasn't been 10 years.[00:43:14] Alessio: Yeah.[00:43:15] Martin Casado: How much would it cost to like, to reproduce this room in 3D? Right. If you, if you, if you hired somebody on fiber, like in, in any sort of quality, probably 4,000 to $10,000.[00:43:24] And then if you had a professional, probably $30,000. So if you could generate the exact same thing from a 2D image, and we know that these are used and they're using Unreal and they're using Blend, or they're using movies and they're using video games and they're using all. So if you could do that for.[00:43:36] You know, less than a dollar, that's four or five orders of magnitude cheaper. So you're bringing the marginal cost of something that's useful down by three orders of magnitude, which historically have created very large companies. So that would be like the venture kind of strategic dreaming map.[00:43:49] swyx: Yeah.[00:43:50] And, and for listeners, uh, you can do this yourself on your, on your own phone with like. Uh, the marble.[00:43:55] Martin Casado: Yeah. Marble.[00:43:55] swyx: Uh, or but also there's many Nerf apps where you just go on your iPhone and, and do this.[00:43:59] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. And, and in the case of marble though, it would, what you do is you literally give it in.[00:44:03] So most Nerf apps you like kind of run around and take a whole bunch of pictures and then you kind of reconstruct it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Martin Casado: Um, things like marble, just that the whole generative 3D space will just take a 2D image and it'll reconstruct all the like, like[00:44:16] swyx: meaning it has to fill in. Uh,[00:44:18] Martin Casado: stuff at the back of the table, under the table, the back, like, like the images, it doesn't see.[00:44:22] So the generator stuff is very different than reconstruction that it fills in the things that you can't see.[00:44:26] swyx: Yeah. Okay.[00:44:26] Sarah Wang: So,[00:44:27] Martin Casado: all right. So now the,[00:44:28] Sarah Wang: no, no. I mean I love that[00:44:29] Martin Casado: the adult[00:44:29] Sarah Wang: perspective. Um, well, no, I was gonna say these are very much a tag team. So we, we started this pod with that, um, premise. And I think this is a perfect question to even build on that further.[00:44:36] ‘cause it truly is, I mean, we're tag teaming all of these together.[00:44:39] Investing in Model Labs, Media Rumors, and the Cursor Playbook (Margins & Going Down-Stack)[00:44:39] Sarah Wang: Um, but I think every investment fundamentally starts with the same. Maybe the same two premises. One is, at this point in time, we actually believe that there are. And of one founders for their particular craft, and they have to be demonstrated in their prior careers, right?[00:44:56] So, uh, we're not investing in every, you know, now the term is NEO [00:45:00] lab, but every foundation model, uh, any, any company, any founder trying to build a foundation model, we're not, um, contrary to popular opinion, we're

Featuring perspectives from Dr Natalie S Callander and Dr Paul G Richardson, including the following topics: Introduction: Clinical Trials We LOVE to Discuss (0:00) Mechanism of Action of Cereblon E3 Ligase Modulators (CELMoDs) (8:42) Available Efficacy Data with CELMoDs in the Management of Relapsed/Refractory Multiple Myeloma (MM) (15:59) Extramedullary Disease (19:23) Spectrum and Management of CELMoD-Associated Adverse Events (30:12) Ongoing Phase II and III Trials Evaluating CELMoDs for MM (34:53) CME information and select publications

A practice won't truly thrive until its team members are aligned and attached to your company's purpose. Tiff and Kristy go into what it takes to gain collective buy-in from those who keep your practice humming, including being reminded of fundamental desires, embracing vulnerability, understanding motivators, and a ton more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I'm so excited for you to be here today. You know, I'm   always excited. I love podcasting. I have loved doing this over the course of all of the years that Kiera and I have been putting these out. They are so much fun. It is so cool to reach you guys and it is amazing to get the time in with our consultants. And I'm bringing her live to you, well not live, I guess. It's live for me. It's recorded for you. But I'm bringing her all this month for you because...   We just busted them out in one day, if I'm honest with you, Kristy. Thank you for being here. Thank you for blocking your afternoon for podcasting with me. And I'm excited for this topic. How are you and how excited are you for this topic?   The Dental A Team (00:41) Excited and I'm doing well. It's not 49 degrees in the morning. It's actually 71 here Oh 72 now, so know that's a little chilly to us, but I'm excited the sun's shining and We get our time together. So I'm excited   The Dental A Team (00:49) ⁓   That's fair. I love walks and I was doing morning walks until like mid December and I was like, I can't, I don't know if it's because I'm an Arizona girl or if it's because I have, you know, thyroid stuff and Hashimoto's, but that chill, as soon as it hits my body, I'm done for. You don't want to be around me. You don't want to know me. And so I have not been going outside in the morning nor later in the evening because that Arizona desert does something   different when that sun goes down. So very happy to hear 71. Those are my, I really, think my sweet spot is like 73 to 76. That's my ideal. So if we can find a place that's always 73 to 76, I say we jet. That's where we're going. We just stay there.   So I love this topic today because, I mean, I love every topic we go through, because you tend to really spin it for me and make everything fun. ⁓ But I love the emotional side of life and the buy-in side, and today really talking about how to get teams bought into your big why. And I like that because I love purpose. I like everyone to have a purpose. And I think when a practice owner   knows what they're after, they have their purpose, it allows the team to then see their purpose within that that why within the owner's purpose. And we actually talked about this a little bit. Now that I say that, it's like I've repeated that we talked about this at the Mastermind in September. And it was actually fun. Anyone who was there will hopefully remember maybe recap will remind you. But Kira was talking we were talking about   writing their why's like what are they doing? What's their purpose? And Kiera spoke about hers and it was really really emotional because Kiera and I get emotional   it was fun to see for her how her   purpose and her why came to life when she spoke about it because I think it morphed a little bit as she was saying it but then it was really fun because she was able to see how my purpose   is fulfilled within her purpose in that I think for owners, it's scary to think that your team has a drive or a why or a want, and it can feel like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. And if they have their own thing, they're gonna leave. And some of them will, that will happen. I've seen, I had a practice.   The Dental A Team (03:34) Hmm.   The Dental A Team (03:39) She was there in September. She'll remember, she'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I had a practice, I went, we did a stellar meeting. ⁓ it was so much fun. So much fun. She has the best practice, she has the best why. She's just an incredible human. Two days later, ⁓ she had a team member quit because she wanted to open up her own business and she wanted to do hair. And the inspiration from talking about why's and talking about what are we doing with our lives.   prompted her to quit and start a hair salon. She just, I was like, I am sorry and not sorry at the same time. So it can happen. And I think that's the fear for a lot of people. But watching Kira open up and then watching Kira get so emotional over how my why and my purpose is fulfilled within what I do, within my position.   The Dental A Team (04:15) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:33) it was like something morphed and changed for her and we all got to see it as like this butterfly effect. But I say that because I can't, I can have my own purpose and my own why, we all do. But when you can see how it aligns with the company that you're working with and how you can serve your purpose and your why within the job that you're in, that's really cool. And I think Kristy, for me at least,   personally as a team member, that helps keep me tethered to the job. Because if I don't know what the why is, where we're going, what are we growing for, why are we tracking these numbers, like what's the big deal, and I just wanna help people, I'm gonna move on until I find my place. And the find your place is being in alignment and being attached to the purpose that your company is serving and driving.   And that was a really long-winded way of introducing the topic. But I thought as soon as I said those things, I was like, oh my gosh, the September event. And so I hope all the doctors listening who were at the September event remember, because it was a really magical time for Dental A Team. And for those of you coming to future events, just buckle up, because there's always something really cool attached. But Kristy, passing the mic over to you, what are your thoughts? And really gaining team member buy-in, what do you?   What did I prompt for you in all of those words I just spewed?   The Dental A Team (06:02) Yeah. Yeah, and   all those words.   Tiff,   I know we were talking numbers earlier, so hopefully they were listening to that too, but the numbers are our gauge, but the buy-in has to be emotional. It's gotta be vulnerable and it's gotta go back to why you do what you do. Like, why'd you get into dentistry? And doctors why maybe, I mean, you said it, doctors why may be different than team members, but.   I venture to say almost every one of us that got into dentistry have some sort of passion for caring, you know? And we gotta get back to the root of that. And we even talked about ⁓ finances and getting to the emotional why. It's no different. If you want our teams to be bought in, you've gotta get to your emotional why. And you doctors have to be the North Star in that.   You can have leadership teams, right? But they've got to be very clear on the why. And it doesn't mean that our direction won't change, because it could change. But that intentional, why do you do what you do? Why do you wake up and get out of bed? We have to identify that.   The Dental A Team (07:17) I love that. You're spot on. And something shifts and changes, I think, for a person when they key in on that. And it's not just going with the motions. We can go through the motions in life very easily. And I think you finish high school and you go to undergrad and you go to school and you go to whatever. You go through dental school. You become a dentist. You do the thing and then you buy the practice. And it's like you get there and you're like, why did I do all that?   Right? They forget. They forget why they did the thing. And I listened to a Simon Sinek thing not too long ago. Well, you know, I love listening to him, his speeches. But one thing that he's been able to key in on for purpose is going back to your high school self. Because in high school really is when we decided what we wanted to do and we tagged it to a work.   like to a physical thing, like what is the job we're going to hold? But somewhere in there, our high school self wanted to serve a purpose and we attached the job to that purpose. So if we can kind of think back to our high school self and really think what did we love? What inspired us? What did we like doing? Where did we feel the most fulfilled and satisfied at that age?   that helps figure out what it was that you're intending to do in life. What is that purpose? Because the purpose isn't, this might rock a few of you, the purpose isn't to do the best dentistry in Kentucky and have smiles that last forever. That's not why you're here. You were not put on this earth to.   Do fillings you might be doing fillings, but that's the actionable piece. That's the what? but what's the why and We actually Kristy shared this recently with a client and Really like I feel like this kind of work on your purpose your your emotionally driven purpose is What can? re-inspire dentists   who might feel like they don't know what they're doing anymore. Why am I even here? Why did I become a dentist? Or teams that are like, what are we doing? Why are we pushing? What are we even after? But that emotionally driven why you can see where in your purpose, the what that you're doing, the job that you're doing, might be satisfying and fulfilling that space.   The Dental A Team (10:05) Wow, that was big. And yeah, you're absolutely right. We just went through this exercise and when you start feeling burnt out, it's great time to go back and revisit that why to reignite that fire and remember why you're doing it because you are going to go through the ebb and flow and the hard times to get there. But when you can let that be your burning desire in your gut, the rest of it's going to fall back into place. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:33) Yeah, yeah.   Thank you. I love all of this work. It's part of like who I am as a human is to help people figure out the inspiration that makes them love what they do every day. That is what I said in September. is my purpose is to inspire people to love what they do in life. So this stuff lights me up. Like I know I'm in my purpose when I get to talk about this stuff. So that's very easy. But how do you   Once we key in on that, Kristy, how do you suggest or coach doctors in sharing that with the team? Because it is incredibly vulnerable, especially when you figure out that your purpose has nothing to do with dentistry. Dentistry is the engine behind the purpose, a lot of, we talked about this earlier too, a lot of people are afraid to share those kinds of things. They're afraid to share the numbers, they're afraid to...   The Dental A Team (11:13) it is.   The Dental A Team (11:27) It's scary to be vulnerable and it's scary, it can be scary to inspire a team to want their own purposes too, again, because you don't, you're like scared they're gonna leave or go start a hair salon. But what do you, how do you coach them on that and how to be vulnerable?   The Dental A Team (11:46) Yeah. Well, I think it's funny that you said the hair salon, first of all, because that person can be a great referral source back to the practice. So it might not be all bad. That too. Yeah. And with that being said, it is vulnerable. And what's coming to my mind is how many times do   The Dental A Team (11:50) I do too.   That's fair. I was thinking that was the opposite of you. ⁓   The Dental A Team (12:11) And again, doctors, I'm not trying to pick on you, but how many times do they come to us and say, they're just here for a paycheck?   The Dental A Team (12:18) Mm. All the time.   The Dental A Team (12:21) And maybe we shouldn't make that wrong.   The Dental A Team (12:24) Yeah, I say   that. ⁓ my gosh, yes, drop the mic. I say that all the time. We are here for a paycheck. We have to pay our bills.   The Dental A Team (12:28) Yeah.   Yeah, and doctors paying something too, which means I think my soft spot goes back to sometimes doctors are afraid to say they're doing this for a quality of life or a legacy of life that they're going to leave and it is tied to money. And I don't think we need to be shameful of that anymore. I truly don't. And I think we need to give permission because even if I am here for a paycheck, that doesn't mean I'm going to serve differently. Right.   ⁓ It's okay and let that be the motivator because if they're getting that, they may serve even better.   The Dental A Team (13:13) Yeah, yeah, and you made me think of to speak to all the team members who are listening. For me, when I hear that somebody wants to a legacy or a legacy dental practice where their kids, if they decide to be dentists, can come be dentists, like this lifestyle, I want this lifestyle for my family. Well, I'm helping serve that I'm helping provide that. And in turn,   I'm also growing. I'm also reaping benefits of them succeeding. So I would much rather work for a doctor who's driven to keep going and keep growing than someone who's like, we're just here to do the fillings. Like cash your check, because I'm like, are we though? Are we going to be here in a year? Like is this stable? The doctor who's like, yeah, I want to build a legacy and I want to impact this community and my family in   XYZ ways. I'm like, cool, you're bought in. That means this is stable. I can get bought in on that because my family is going to grow as your family grows. And I can see myself here for a long time. And I think that's that team buying and that vulnerability of this is why I'm here because I'm here to serve my family. I'm here to pay my bills. I'm here to make sure Brody goes to college. I'm here to make sure that he has everything that he wants and desires. Ask my   The Dental A Team (14:16) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:42) checking account. That is my goal. Brody is happy and it's served by doing things like this. And if I want my goal, if my goal is to leave a legacy and be the entrepreneur who leaves a legacy for my family, that people can pick up that business and they don't have to work for anyone, then that's going to look different. I'm going go open a hair salon. I'm going to go do that thing. But I'm going to do that regardless of you telling me.   The Dental A Team (14:44) you   The Dental A Team (15:10) your purpose and your why, it's gonna happen no matter what. So don't be afraid to share it, just know you're serving, you're providing a space where people can grow. Whether they grow with you forever or they grow to a place where they're like, cool, I can go do that thing that I've always wanted to do, that's incredible. You got somebody to a point where they could go fulfill their life dreams, holy cow.   That's really freaking cool. And hopefully in the meantime, in the middle of that, you guys built some awesome systems that somebody can come in and learn. Because not everything's a guarantee, but the way you said that, Kristy, is just spot on. That vulnerability piece and allowing the team to decide if that's what they're here for or not, instead of leaving in the shadows, never speaking of it, and hoping that they stay anyway.   The Dental A Team (16:05) Yeah. How many times have you, I mean, I haven't worked at a lot of jobs, so I'm pretty loyal to my jobs, but for people that have gone, and I've interviewed people and hired people, so I'm speaking to myself in this too, but how many times have we shared our why in that process?   You know, and it all starts there. And you said something before, the what. The what may be getting to three million this year. And that's all we ever hear instead of the why. If we hear the why, then we can get behind the what. And then I like to say the core values just serve as how we behave to get to the why.   The Dental A Team (16:48) Yes.   Yes, yes, I love that because oftentimes core values are how we like how they want the community to view us. And so, you know, where we have integrity and we do great dental care and we have your dental, ⁓ your dentistry in mind and your dental health and is our is our heart. I'm like, I don't know how to show up to that. I don't know how to I don't know how to exude your dental health is my heart because it's not I don't.   I'm not here, I think dentistry is really cool, but I didn't go to dental school because I don't want to be a dentist. So that's spot on. It's hard to know what we're aiming for and what we're going for if we don't know the why or the what. A lot of times we're not trying the what either. So if we don't know what our goals are, if we don't know what our inspiration is, I tell people all the time, motivation is short lived. I can motivate you for a short amount of time, but if I can inspire you, inspiration lives inside of you.   Motivation comes and goes, it dies. It dies. That's why gym, you know, people who aren't inspired to go to the gym, they're not inspired by the change that the gym can make in their lives, like the steak, right? We talked about the steak and having ⁓ an all-on-four so we can eat a steak. If there's not inspiration tied to the health, the motivation to get up and go to the gym will die. It will fade. Every January, you're gonna be re-motivated to start the gym again. But if there's not inspiration living inside of you,   to be healthier, it will die off. So if I'm not inspired by the work that I'm doing, which if I'm doing new patient intake forms, like give me something to be inspired about. that's, you know, this can get really boring. Insurance verifications, why am I doing this? What difference does it make? Give me some inspiration so that I can attach to that and then give me the path of how I show up and live it every day. Those are your core values. So you need your   your mission vision, your why, what are we, why am I here, your inspiration, and then how do I show up to that?   The Dental A Team (18:55) I agree with you 100%. And I think you said something that we failed to realize. I wish I could remember the name of the book now, but there was one and he treats people that have heart attacks. And he's like, if you think I could motivate people, I should be able to motivate people because they're at best door, right? And I'm gonna try to get them to change eating or this.   The Dental A Team (19:06) Okay.   Yes.   The Dental A Team (19:20) they do for two weeks or two months because they remember what it was like to have a heart attack, but then they go back to the behavior. So even when we're faced with our own mortality, you just, I mean, it proves like we, it lives and dies. Yeah. Yep.   The Dental A Team (19:36) We're complacent.   Yeah, muscle memory sets in and it's easier to stay where you're at even in uncomfortableness. And even if your life is uncomfortable, it's easier to stay here than to make the change because you don't know what's on the other side of change. It's an unknown. You can't quite even imagine it or what you imagine you can't guarantee is going to happen. So it's easier to stay in the uncomfortable because it's what you know. There's no questions. It's gonna stop.   It's uncomfortable. It's easier to stay here and even face your own mortality than to say, okay, I'm gonna do this thing and whatever happens on the other side, I'm okay with, because that's scary.   The Dental A Team (20:17) Yep.   Well, I think the other thing, Tiff, that we failed to really tap into is you recognize it and you do it once. And how many times do we get with our clients and we're like, what is your what? Well, it's written down somewhere or it's in the drawer. Like you've got to revisit it and make it come alive or you just forget. And it's not front and center. And then that's when you get the burnout. And that's when you, you know, we've got to get back to that core and revisit it. So   I challenge you every time you have a team meeting, bring it up, talk about it. How are we living it? What are we doing that's in alignment with that and serving it? Because that's what's gonna inspire you to keep going. And so often, as a leader, that's one of my favorite things. How inspiring are you being in this moment? How inspiring am I being if I'm squatting, you're not doing this, you're not doing that. That's not inspiring change.   We talk about it all the time in hygiene. You say you're not flossing every day. Well, no, I just told you I'm not flossing. That's not inspiring me to floss every day. Right? So again, I just think putting a little spin and making sure you know your buy-in and then also revisit it. Don't put it in a drawer. ⁓ I once learned, and again, I apologize where I don't have the statistic behind me.   The Dental A Team (21:25) Yeah. Yeah.   resource.   The Dental A Team (21:45) They say, or resource, yeah, they say if you state your goal, you're a certain percentage ⁓ to achieve it. Is it James Clear? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe give them credit with credits on it. With that though, if you write it down, you're even exponentially higher. And if you say it, write it down and share it with somebody even more so.   The Dental A Team (21:55) I think so. Yeah. It might be atomic habits.   The Dental A Team (22:14) And then if you revisit it frequently, those are the people that really hit their goals.   The Dental A Team (22:16) Yeah.   And I challenge you to, you, meaning everyone and even myself, to consider goals that we're not willing to share with other people. It's much easier to tell ourselves that we're gonna do something and then not do it than to tell other people that we're gonna do something and then not do it. We will hold ourselves to a higher level of accountability if we vocalize it to people outside of ourselves, because we're okay to lie to ourselves. I'm okay. I'm okay to have.   low personal integrity until I can't take that anymore, until it hurts too much, but I won't do that public facing. So I encourage you guys to evaluate that to us there. Is there an unspoken goal that maybe if we just said it out loud and wrote it down and had some accountability partners around us, would we actually do it? Just like I said, I was gonna do a pull-up and let me tell you how many times Erin asks me if I've practiced for it.   The Dental A Team (22:51) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (23:14) You know?   The Dental A Team (23:14) I love it. You know, Tiff, I had a client one time that ⁓ she wrote, she was in a pretty tough spot financially and she wrote a check to herself, pulled it out a few years later and I mean, granted, visited through the way, did some of the things we talked about, but pulled it back out and it was like, holy cow, that she thought that was so undoable.   The Dental A Team (23:27) Mm, I love that.   The Dental A Team (23:42) and then it was surpassed. So challenge, I challenge our listeners.   The Dental A Team (23:44) ⁓ Yeah.   Yeah, I like it. Thank you. This was a fun. These are my favorite. You know that these are my favorite topics and I love having someone who's of the same mindset and I guess path of leadership. We listen to so much stuff and so many people and read so many books. So I love bouncing this stuff with you, Kristy. Thank you. And I think if we summed it up, I would say the biggest the action item from today is to sit down.   and get in touch with your purpose. And no, I know, Kristy, we've talked to a few clients, but specifically a client we worked with together that we had to stress that it's not perfect. It may not be perfect. It may take you months to really dial it in, but just start. You have to start somewhere. And oftentimes we hold ourselves back because we think we're not ready for perfect yet. It's not done. I don't have it like...   formulated yet. It's not my brain hasn't finished. Well, your brain's not going to finish if you don't get it on paper. Once you get it on paper, it's out of your brain and your brain can then process other things and other things come to light. So that would be my challenge. and Kristy, thank you again for today, for the whole day. Thank you. And thank you for just all of the, all of the light that you shed on this topic in general. think we can.   We can see lot of brilliance in that. So thank you for being here today, Kristy.   The Dental A Team (25:15) Yeah, thank you for ⁓ having the conversation with me.   The Dental A Team (25:19) Yeah, it's my favorite. I'll do this all day long. One care is like, what do you love? This is what I love. So how do we do that? But anyways, you guys, know, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you are looking for advice, you're looking for guidance. If you're a client, obviously reach out to your consultant. We all dabble in this stuff. We all do the leadership. We all have those paths. And if you're not yet a consultant or someone who's going to be a listener forever, that's   cool too, just know we're here, reach out. We love this stuff, we are passionate about serving the dental community in the best ways possible and reaching as many people as we possibly can. That's why we started the podcast years and years ago. So reach out to us, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com Drop us a review below, let us know what you loved about today and honestly, Kristy and I would love to hear from you guys. Again, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, tell them, send this to Tiff and Kristy. We would love to hear from you guys on what is your why?   What is your purpose? What's your inspiration? And how are you gonna use it? I, truth be told, would love to see those emails. I know, Kristy, you would too. awesome. All right, guys, go do the things. Go be inspirational and check back with us. Let us know how your teams do. Thanks so much.

As property management faces rapid technological disruption, what happens to the businesses that refuse to adapt… or the ones that go all-in on AI and eliminate the human element entirely?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Joe Oliveri in Brisbane, Australia to unpack the accelerating AI revolution and what it means for the future of property management. With over 30 years in the industry and 16 years as an international real estate business coach, Joe shares why he believes the next three years will determine which companies survive, and which disappear.  They explore the shift from traditional property manager roles to data-driven client relationship managers, how AI can transform processes like lease renewals, the risks of deepfakes and security threats, and why the winning formula will be a strategic blend of technology and human connection.   You'll Learn (00:00) Introduction to AI in Property Management  (00:40) The Evolution of Property Management  (01:58) The Impact of AI on Property Management  (05:35) Integrating AI with Human Interaction  (10:30) AI's Role in Tenant Management  (14:17) The Need for Verification in AI  (16:30) The Future of AI in Property Management  (21:44) Consequences of Ignoring AI  (25:43) Finding Balance: AI and Human Roles Growth  Quotables "If this industry does not change and truly understand AI, we're going to be irrelevant." "Three years is all we've got to make the changes."  "AI isn't something that they can go back to their office and say, we're going to build this AI. Let the experts do it." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) that companies will need to be able to make to keep up and really frankly, survive. It's recording.   We can time up. Shifts in layout. Let's count. All right. You think it's going to work there or should we hold that? Well, we'll probably have to do this. All right. Cool. No introduction. Well, no. Just do it. I'm saying not the full intro that you normally do the way you read the entire thing. Just do a quick. You're not going to have all that when we're going to send it. OK. Do an intro, but you're not going to do the normal intro. All right.   Put those somewhere. Hang them on your shirt or do something. Okay. That's very Brisbane. Well you have to fit in. When in Brisbane, do like Brisbane. Right, so we are... It wasn't pretty. Okay. Five, four, three, two... If you can see the camera, it can see you.   Can you see the camera? can. You don't... can. Okay. Alright, you ready? Five, four, three, two, one. Alright, so I'm Jason Hull. This is Sarah Hull with DoorGrow and we are Hangout with Joe Oliveri. And we're in Brisbane. Brizzy. Brizzy, yeah. And you can't see but we're overlooking the beautiful city and the river right now.   And what is this, a wine room? Yeah, this is our wine cellar. Private wine cellar. Private wine cellar. Okay. And so we're going to be chatting today about AI, the future, and how that's going to impact and affect property management. So, Jill, why don't you give people a little bit of background on yourself and who you are and how you got into property management.   Yeah well that's a long story but I'll make it short. So I've been in the industry for about 30 years now so it makes me feel old when I say that. ⁓ But for the last 16 years I've been a real estate business coach and I've been lucky enough to coach people in Australia and the USA so I get a really good oversight of what's going on in the world. ⁓ But you know my focus for the last 16 years has been   where is this industry going and how can we help businesses to get there and what do need to do? So basically, yeah, for the last 30 years, I've been doing property management and yeah, I think it's exciting where it's heading and through that journey, I met you guys, which is wonderful. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, fantastic. We've been able to have you out at one of our conference events and have you speak and yeah, it's been delightful.   ⁓ I know, I mean, in 30 years, you've seen a lot of changes, but it's speeding up. Like we're in the middle of this AI revolution right now. Everything's changing dramatically. And so what are some of the things that you're noticing? And you have a process software called Thrusos, which we use to run our own operational side of our business. ⁓ What are some of the things that you are right now?   thinking are going to happen and you're trying to figure out. Yeah, well, I'm actually concerned about the future for property management in a positive way. If you can kind of like say that. Because what I'm seeing is we are going through rapid change. I remember when I started in the industry 30 years ago, we were just introducing property management software. Everyone was still using spreadsheets and you know.   paper documents and all sorts of things. ⁓ Carbon copy leases, know, that's how far back we go. And there was major pushback on property management software. And the pushback probably took about five years for the industry to completely transition to understanding you had to use software. Well, we don't have the luxury of five years anymore because my belief is it's changing so rapidly.   And it's the consumer expectations that are going to force change that if this industry does not change and truly understand AI, we're going to be irrelevant. So I believe in three years time, we're going to see completely different roles in the way that we do things. in the next, like leading up to that three years,   I believe that in the first year, we're going to see probably about 40 % of businesses starting to struggle and disappear. They're losing managements, clients are going elsewhere because they're expecting AI and seamless processes and interactions and tasking. And then that will speed up. And by the second year, we'll see 80%.   And then we'll only have a small percentages. I know this seems like doomsday, but it's a reality. Only a small percentage of existing businesses that are around today who will be around in three years time. If they do not adopt AI and AI is very broad. So they've got to understand AI, but you know, that's my belief. That's what I'm seeing as well. So yeah, you know, we've got to sit up and take notice.   Yeah. And I think a lot of the things that I've been noticing, some people kind of shift right away and some people are a little bit more reluctant to shift. Yes. And I think the ones that it's almost you need to find the balance. You don't want to go all in and all AI and you don't want to have no AI. You want to kind of find the right balance and that happy medium and really figure out what is the best way to utilize AI.   and have a human component. Because I do not believe it will be able to be all AI. I just, think when it really comes down to it, it is a relationship business. It's a human to human contact business. really when things go wrong, humans want to talk with other humans who understand. They don't want, have you ever been on the phone and you're going, agent, agent, representative, and it's not.   understanding and you're like, just get me to the human. do I, what button do I need to push? What option is it that I the human? And I think that will continue, that will prevail. However, AI is such a powerful tool that I think we just need to figure out what's the most complimentary way that the humans and the AI can interact together to provide an amazing experience so that the tenants are happy and the clients are happy and the property management business is happy.   really be able to figure out what's the best way to do this. And something that you were telling me yesterday, I went, ⁓ she is so smart for doing that. Can you talk a bit about your, ⁓ tell us first about Flusos and what it is and how it works. And then tell me what you were chatting with me about at dinner last night about what you're going in and updating in Flusos because of all of the advancements in AI that are happening.   Yeah, yeah, so you're 100 % right Sarah, you know, there will always be the human element. It's necessary. We're a service business. So people want the customer relationships. They want that person who lets them know, hey, this is all right. You know, we're going well here. But the role of the property manager has changed. There will always be a role for property managers, but not in the way that we see it today.   And that's where we've got to make that transition. But one of the simplest flows to talk about, when I talk about flows, Flusos is workflows on all of the various tasks that we do. To help people understand how AI integrates with the human side of property management is if we look at a tenancy renewal. So when we're doing that renewal, there's so much that AI can do that takes away that   you know, that personal kind of like input ⁓ into the task as in like if a property manager doesn't like a tenant, then you know, like it becomes personal. ⁓ If they do like the tenant and they've built this relationship with the tenant, where the tenant is making them feel like if the rent goes up, that the tenant will lose the home, the property manager gets too involved personally and emotionally.   So to take away that very personal and emotional element and deal in the facts, if we look at, you know, a tenant renewal, AI has the ability, and this is what we're building into Flusos. So AI has the ability to go through and say, these renewals are due. It will then look at the tenant history to say, you know, how's the tenant pay the rent on time? Let's look at the in-resident inspections that we've done and we can see that the tenants   looking after the property, abiding by the terms and conditions. Everything's going great. We can see in the system where the tenant has, you know, kind of like mentioned that they would like to renew, that their children go to the local school and they want to stay there through the primary. We've got all of this data that's built up. So AI will be able to go in and say, yeah, you know, like this tenant has mentioned they want to stay on. We look at their history. It's all good. We're also going to look at the market.   And the market is determining that we can increase the rent to this much or it stays, it remains as it is. And we should offer a lease term of this length because AI will be able to determine what's going on in that marketplace. There could be infrastructure rebuilds going on, which could push people away from moving there. You know, just because we've got infrastructure being built, there is a building period that turns people off.   So AI can look at all of that and then say, okay, this is what we should offer the tenant. Now, the property manager then looks at that and they can say, well, you know, this owner has this property as a ⁓ full-time ⁓ or permanent investment property, but we need to talk to them and say, hey, as an investment property, this is where we recommend that you, you know, take the property, increase the rent, offer renewal because of this.   ⁓ And then the owner can make a decision. Now AI jumps in, does all the lease renewals, sends off the documents, updates the system. And the property manager's next role is talking to the owner and saying, congratulations, the tenants have signed the renewal. AI has then given them updates on your property is now achieving this in comparison to market. This is what the increase means to you in terms of dollars and percentage.   And we become that voice of, you know, like ⁓ reason and congratulations and service. And the owners look to us for that because all the information that's given to them is not based on personal, ⁓ you know, thoughts on what's going on or emotion. So, yeah.   And it makes it seem either that's the thing. No, I guess not. Oh, I think they're building over there. So maybe it'll be good and yet they're supposed to build a new stadium and that'll bring in. It's really figuring out things that we just don't know what the impact will truly be. And I love that it's kind of like, OK, have the human monitor the AI and have the AI do the heavy lifting.   and then you kind of watch it, make sure it's doing the right thing, and then you get to be the human to human connection. Exactly. Let me be the one who calls the owner, but AI has done all the things for me, so it's kind of prepped it, gotten it ready, wrapped it up in a pretty package that now I can present to the owner, and I get to be almost a bearer of good news instead of the bearer of bad news. Exactly, exactly. And know, owners don't want to hear that you should renew the lease because they're a good tenant.   Well, what constitutes a good tenant? They have to pay their rent on time. They have to look after the property. They have to look after the garden. So they've got to abide by the terms and conditions. It doesn't mean they're a good tenant. So owners don't want to hear that. The owners want to hear that they've abided by the terms and conditions. So we see no reason why they shouldn't be offered a renewal. I think one of the interesting challenges that are   that's going to come with AI is that AI can make anything now. I can take a photo of you, I could use AI to make you say stuff and match your voice. And so the danger with AI is that I think we're gonna get to the point where people will only trust human in-person interactions to begin things or to end things or just, you know. And so there's gonna have to be this human element of verification unless there'll probably be some people that work this out.   like some sort of verification system. You can load it up on your phone and verify that this is a real thing that you're talking to on Zoom or something. you know, that with all the AI slop as they're calling it and all of the fake videos and it's now becoming nobody believes anything. And so it's hard to know, is this really true? Is this actually the property manager that I'm talking to that is, you know,   that I have this property and I'm the owner and you know, are they real? And so, am I giving them access? And so I think there's gonna need to be some sort of verification system in order for people to trust because people will trust, I think it'll get to the point where we'll just trust this. Like I can shake your hand, I can touch you, I you're real.   I mean, we might all be fake on the I you don't know we just took a photo and write the whole podcast and do it and yes But they're really in Ulston That's right. Yeah There's been so much that's happened with deep fakes there've been yeah millions of dollars scammed and Now there's it it's getting so aggressive   that it's recommended that if you are a human that recommends or that interacts regularly with another human, like you and your husband, for example, or you and your children, that you have a a safe word, a password, a verbal safe where if you get a phone call from what looks like and sounds like your daughter saying, mom, I'm stuck on the side of the road, please send me money, I need help, what's the word?   What's the word? And then you know if that word isn't said, that is not my daughter even though it looks like it sounds like it. And I think that's going to be something that we need to kind of incorporate as well and for that reason I agree. I think that in-person, personal relationship will be more important than ever. Yes, I agree with that and this is something that's interesting you bring that up because I always had a safe word with my children. It was given. ⁓   It's something that I think property managers take for granted. They call owners and tenants and talk about all sorts of things without any sort of security check. So, you know, like if we're talking to the banks or, you know, anyone, we get a telecode or we've got to like key in what our personal sort of verification. Exactly.   So I think that's another area, and I'm glad you brought that up because it's another area where industry has to step up. We've got to protect the data that we've got. We've got a lot of sensitive data there. So we've got to really look after that. But there will always be that human element in property management because people want to know that they're making the right decision. People want to chat about it. They want to go through and say, based on that data,   would I be wrong in increasing the rent? It's like, no, a property manager is like, that's what the market is determining. So if the market determines a rental increase, then that's what the market is saying. Holding back rent only impacts every other investor in that market. I think it'll be interesting. So I think moving forward in the future, if we start to leverage AI, but we build our processes around things.   you know, initiated in a way that it starts with a human and that sensitive touch points are done as a human and that we come up with our own verification methods, we're going to avoid some of these traps and our processes will have a longer life span. Yes, yes. You know, we won't have to, man, we have to change everything now with the, all these scammers are doing this one thing where they call up and pretend that they're you, you know.   And so, yeah, because you can go on 11 Labs right now. You can upload your little recording of your voice and then you can have your voice and you can have it say anything. so, yeah, so I think that's going to be a challenge. And I think we're going to have to figure out a way to how do you how do you on a Zoom call with a remote owner that's out of state or out of country verify that each of you are an actual   real physical human being. Somebody needs to invent that device that verifies it's like taking a blood sample. It's like they're human and it's it's like, this is the, this is actually Joe I'm talking to across the pond. So yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is important. And I think the other thing for the industry to understand is that, you know, AI isn't something that they can go back to their office and say, we're going to build this AI.   ⁓ Let the experts do it. Let the experts who understand process and know, Sarah is a real expert on process and to have that level of expertise, it takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of like building and rebuilding and understanding and it's tweaked, you know, for different companies. But you know, like they shouldn't be taking this on themselves. Let the experts do it. And when we talk about, you know, our tech.   We need tech stacks and there is a lot of different technology out there that we've got to build it all in together. Property managers can't do that. A lot of business leaders can't do it either. know, have faith in the experts. That's what I'm saying to the industry is have faith in the experts because, you know, they are doing a lot of work behind the scenes on making sure that AI is not a negative.   impact to the industry is only making our industry sustainable and relevant into the future. mean that's going to be one of the temptations and dangers is that anyone can now go create any software. can load up lovable or any of these other tools and they can say make me a CRM or make me a property management software. But yeah the problem is you then have to become some sort of expert that's constantly communicating, fixing bugs, tweaking it, figuring it out.   And if you can't or something breaks or something gets hacked, then you're at risk. Your whole business is now at risk. And yeah, so I think that, but in the future, everybody will be able to create anything. So I think the people that really thrive and survive and keep a job while AI kind of takes over, I believe will be those that are the artists.   So we're going to shift away from it being about being a nerdy programmer. It's going to be those that have this creative thinking that they can think, how can I combine these tools? How can I connect these? How can we innovate this? And that's been one of the most fun things for me in playing with AI is now I get to be an artist with building systems and building things and creating things. Cause I can create things so quickly. Whereas before I would just think about all the things I wanted to do. And I'd be like, that'd be nice if somebody made that. And I'd be like, that's way too much work.   I don't want to do that. but yeah, it's now you can just create anything and you can edit things quickly. You can have things reviewed. And so there's a lot of things that everybody's probably already using some of the AI tools right now, you know, like chat GPT and maybe Claude and perplexity and some of these things, but there's a lot of, you know, more advanced tools that are coming out that are going to make things even faster.   And now AI is building AI and things are just speeding up.   Jason Hull (22:01) is that we're gonna have a lot of tenants out of work. I think there's gonna be a lot of tenants that are like, hey, I just lost my job to AI. And so we've already replaced some roles and some functions of our team and maybe even a whole team member with some AI tools already. And so that's coming very quickly. And I think Elon Musk just said that   in the next three to five years, the best surgeons in the world will be robots. And those are high paying, high functioning jobs that people put a lot of effort into, but he says they'll be better, more accurate. And so, do you want a really seasoned, older surgeon with maybe, he's human steady level hands, or do you want somebody that has laser precision that gets it right every time that's overseen by that person?   I think the best blend is both. I want the AI laser precision with the human with all of the knowledge and experience to watch it and make sure that it's the right thing. if you did it that way, if a doctor just had a monitor, it eliminates the need for many of them. You now need one doctor to...   multiple AI robots. Because you've got beta. think everything that's going to shift, AI is going to change so many things, which is great. It's still not going to be able to, I mean, how comfortable would you feel? Open heart surgery and that's the AI robot and you go, ⁓ do I want that thing cutting me open? ⁓   What's its track record? What if it glitches? What if it breaks down? Is it going to do the right thing? it know? What is it, you know, is it programmed? What if it dies in the middle of the surgery? Does it have a battery? There's a lot of things to think about. And does it care? Right. is it, what if it that eye robot where it's scanning and going, oh, it has an 11 % chance of survival. I'm done. Well, wait a second. Hold on. Do we, you know, do we keep going? So I think everything is going to come down to a blend.   of AI and human and there's got to be both of those components. So can you maybe chat about, let's chat about kind of both ends of the spectrum here. What might happen to some property management companies that refuse to adopt AI? Where they go, I'm just not doing it. I'm not using AI. I'm staying old school. We don't want to learn anything. We don't want to do anything else. might you be a, what would you think the prediction would be on companies that just will not?   Yes. Use it. That's a really good question because we kind of saw that with what happened with these old school companies ⁓ where they refused to have anything but the property management program, you know, where you store your data. ⁓ And they eventually were out of business. I mean, I'd go into these offices and they just have   files everywhere, files covering the desk, they didn't know where anything was. But they refused to, you know, ⁓ use anything else than go to that paper file. And it was a mess. mean, how do you find paper? ⁓ So we saw those businesses gradually get out of business. They didn't have a business to sell, basically. So they might have been mighty in their day, but they were no longer mighty when technology just   over. Now that took a long time to happen in the past. It's going to be more rapid now. So those businesses that refuse to adapt or adopt AI or understand it because a lot of them think we've got AI. It's like you don't have AI. GPD does not help you to manage process better. So if they don't then   We're seeing it already Sarah and Jason. We're seeing that these companies that used to manage 500 or more managements are down to half of that and I'm selling one at the moment where they had 600 and we're just on the final figures today. They're down to 342. That's a lot of money that they've lost because they refuse to adapt new methods and they let the property managers determine   what technology they would use. Because what happens if we allow staff to determine what technology we will use, then the staff just create or justify a reason for their position. We can't do that anymore. We've got to identify the task that a property manager does. And there's much less than what, you know, they did in the past. A property manager is basically just a client relationship manager now.   They're reviewing data and interpreting that data to have conversations with the clients. And that's the way we've got to do it. And the other thing is, investors are changing too. So we're getting a lot of institutional investors. So institutional investors don't want to deal with, you know, mother head and type, you know, like, ⁓ the tenants are lovely and you know, you don't want to lose them and...   you probably can't afford to do the maintenance and things like that. Institutional investors just want the facts so they can make a decision and quite often they don't want to make a decision they want the property manager to do what's needed. And AI will determine the necessary steps so the property manager becomes that person this has been done or they can look online through their portal. in   I'm like, that's a long answer to your question. But you know, like I believe hand on heart and don't want to seem like I'm doing so sorry, I'm hitting the mic. that three years time is three years is all we've got to make the changes and to identify the tasks the property manager does. Because it's not the same anymore. I agree. And I think it's about shifting that shifting. It's about making that shift.   And then conversely, let's talk about the other end of the spectrum because, okay, if you go, you know what, I'm sold, I'm doing everything AI. I'm firing my entire team, I'm letting AI do everything and we've seen some companies try to do this before, but now there's a lot of changes and AI can do a lot of things that before was not possible. So what would you say to the companies that are gonna go all in and they're gonna do all AI? Is that the solution?   No, it's a happy blend of technology and team. So if you don't have the team there, property management is a service industry. So we have to remember that, you know, and our service is helping the clients to feel confident about decisions that they're making or instructions that they're giving. ⁓ So it is definitely a blend of ⁓ technology and team.   but the team's role has changed. please don't think you can go in there and chat GBT is going to, you know, create all the conversations and, and, know, they're going to answer the phone and, and, you know, talk to the client and record it all. No, there needs to be human element. But again, I'll go back to it's the experts that will help you create that because it's very, very difficult to understand how to blend that technology and team. ⁓   without the kind of like the team having their say in it too. A lot of business owners let the team say too much and they make decisions based on team. We've seen that, or they take a vote. A vote, yes. My team, I hear that from our clients, and they go, well my team voted and what? Your team voted? No, no, no, no. that's good. They don't ever vote. Like, yeah, you know, eliminate my job. I'll vote yes for that. Yeah, yeah. No, no.   Yeah, the challenge with team members is that they are not usually money driven the way entrepreneurs are. They're not focused on the money side of the business and they're focused on safety and security. And as AI comes, that's going to take a lot of that away. And so yeah, you don't want to have your team vote. This is, it's not like a   It's not democracy. No, this is business. I believe in democratic principles, it's the business. But yeah, you can't place the burden of decision making on people that are wired to make decisions in a way that's not conducive. Yeah, it's all about them. And, you know, like it's important to understand how the team is thinking so that you can then help them adjust to it or no.   that person's not going to come through with me. So you can make the decisions. no, know, team will always justify why they are needed in a business. Yeah. mean, the day may come with all the AI stuff and humans really, we tend to like each other. We like humans a bit. You know, we'll probably have labels on our business made with real humans. Real humans at our business and a real human answers the phone. No AI. You know, I mean, it might happen. So that could be interesting. So.   One of the things that I also though, am thinking and maybe I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist or a little crazy, I don't know. But ⁓ when Trump went into Venezuela and extradited or took out that dictator that had taken over the government there and was causing a lot of problems, the people were very happy. But what was really interesting, what was unsaid or I didn't hear people talk about it much is the US government.   Military whatever went in had the ability they turned off all the power to the entire city There were not even backups were working everything went out and went black. Mm-hmm and That's wild to think that we have the ability to just wipe out power and electricity I don't know if it was an EMP thing or Some people say solar flares can do this and maybe the government can do this kind of stuff. Who knows but the fact that technological   data, power, electricity, all that can just shut off in an instant. How would we deal with that in a world where everything has become digital and everything has become AI? Will we have backups? Will we have keys? Will we be able to find things? ⁓ Will we know stuff? there's, think there, I mean, if that happens one time, it will be like change everything forever. Just like the pandemic changed everybody's perception forever about.  

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, steps outside traditional Mafia territory and into a shadowy world just as dangerous—and just as fascinating: the international theft of ultra-rare automobiles.  Gary is joined by author Stayton Bonner, former senior editor at Rolling Stone, and legendary car-recovery specialist Joe Ford, the real-life figure behind Bonner's book The Million Dollar Car Detective. At the center of the story is a breathtaking pre-World War II automobile—the Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé—once described as the most beautiful car in the world. Stolen from a Milwaukee industrialist's garage in 2001, the car vanished into the international underground of elite collectors, forged paperwork, and high-stakes deception. Joe Ford explains how he became the go-to investigator when rare cars worth millions disappear—and why stolen vehicles are far harder to recover than stolen art. What follows is a years-long global hunt involving disgruntled mechanics, fabricated titles, shell corporations, Swiss intermediaries, and a billionaire buyer now locked in civil litigation. Bonner adds rich historical context, tracing the car's glamorous past—from European aristocracy to Hollywood royalty—and exposing how loneliness, obsession, and greed often surround these legendary machines. The conversation expands into other notorious cases, including the disappearance of the original James Bond Aston Martin from Goldfinger, and how wealthy collectors sometimes knowingly harbor stolen artifacts. This episode is a true-crime story without guns or gangs—but filled with deception, betrayal, and the relentless pursuit of justice across borders. If you love investigative work, high-end crime, and stories that feel like James Bond meets Gone in 60 Seconds, this one's for you.

Is celebrating Valentine's Day a basic expectation, or optional? Jared and Matchmaker Maria unpack a petty or prudent situation where a woman uses an entire couples spa gift card on herself after her boyfriend refuses to acknowledge Valentine's Day at all. J & MM break down how attitude is everything in dating and why showing up authentically matters, especially for Gen Z. They also share what to do if you've been seeing someone for one day versus a few months for Valentine's Day. Then, a listener asks how to tell a guy she wants to wait to have sex, without killing attraction, right before their first Valentine's Day together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alright, whether you are in a closet or in Tokyo let's clear the air here with some sold cold, easy treats. We get deep into history and call Mr. Etymology on his vacation to taste 12 cool cakes and debate The Useless Pumpkins. I'll tell you right now, if you don't like the word 'moist' you aren't going to like this episode because M & M taste opera cakes, cheese cakes, cream cakes, tree cakes and tea cakes before naming their favorite glycerides, bugbears and jingle hits finally ending the episode with a brazen bowl selection. JustOneCookbook Castella Cake    Support Spilled Milk Podcast!Molly's SubstackMatthew's Bands: Early to the Airport and Twilight DinersProducer Abby's WebsiteListen to our spinoff show Dire DesiresJoin our reddit Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We're back with part 2 of this rerelease of IT HAD TO BE YOU by Susan Elizabeth Phillips. We're still hopping mad and ready to burn it down! Content Warnings: episode includes discussions of sexual assault, including in young childhood, on-page violent rape, statutory rape, rampant misogyny, malicious thinness, kink shaming, slut shaming, fat shaming, Madonna/Whore Complex, racism, and more. Lady Loves: Sabrina: having a group of badass, wonderful friends who will lift you up and remind you how you've advocated for yourself in the past after a terrible experience with a medical doctor. Mel: deciding to never read another SEP book on pod or off. Whatever author shows you that you can't trust them to take care of you as a reader, don't read them anymore! Romancelandia is huge and gorgeous and there's something out there for everyone! Want to support the show? Rate and review us on your favorite podcast app! It super helps the algorithm connect us to new listeners.  Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This week Mel is telling Sabrina all about her latest MM rabbit hole!  Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior  Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast at gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey HBs! Mel and Sabrina are mad and rereleasing IT HAD TO BE YOU by Susan Elizabeth Phillips. This is a doozy! Content Warnings: episode includes discussions of sexual assault, including in young childhood, on-page violent rape, statutory rape, rampant misogyny, malicious thinness, kink shaming, slut shaming, fat shaming, Madonna/Whore Complex, racism, and more. Want to support the show? Rate and review us on your favorite podcast app! It super helps the algorithm connect us to new listeners.  Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This week Mel is telling Sabrina all about her latest MM rabbit hole!  Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior  Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast at gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.