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In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His. Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy. The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption. Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people. The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner. Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power. The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her. Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose. The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk. Memorable Quotes "Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb "The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb "These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and. Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it. Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it. In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So [00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it. [00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan. Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is [00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me. [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous. [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. [00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance, [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners. Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group. And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn. There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True. Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready. [00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else. Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something. [00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving [00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions. True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem. And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more. So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted. So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest. So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar. If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule. And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions. And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell. The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary. Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this. [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way. Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history. So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction. And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right. It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out. And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of. So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um. Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances. But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it. Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes. Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai. And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee. So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see. We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least. [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken. [00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye. [00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here? [00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it? [00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too. [00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think [00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question. [00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and. That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local. Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody. I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel. So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption. That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness. Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill. All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come. And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today. Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit. Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them. We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption. [00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes, [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online. I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh. I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all? [00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably. [00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um. The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that [00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different. Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually. Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes, [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true [00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the. Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times. It was very, very good. [00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it. You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude. It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated. So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior. So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal? We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does. [00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time. Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but [00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though. [00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me [00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best? Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in? [00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like. [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand. [00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point. We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to? Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time. [00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15. [00:22:12] Discussion on the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them. And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive. Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight. Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like. Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners. He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right. This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not. Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it. And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what? 50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose. So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right? She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth. Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I [00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase. I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it? And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it. [00:27:44] Understanding the Parable's Context [00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us. [00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation. [00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we? [00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind. Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this. Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could. Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage. [00:28:57] The Significance of the Lost Coin [00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad. The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one. So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before. It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love. Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money. And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends. There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way. And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner. He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context. [00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:23] Theological Implications of God's People [00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son. Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people. As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past. Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen. He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right? There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great. Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right? But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new. These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl. This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation. But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. [00:34:53] God's Relentless Pursuit of Sinners [00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people. The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people. Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost. And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life. But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us. And these parables really speak against that [00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true. And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance. I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right? There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit. [00:38:12] Rejoicing in Salvation [00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished. And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself. [00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God. Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that. Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about. We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over. Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him. That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things. But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving. Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting. Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep. And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing. [00:42:43] The Joy of Redemption [00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing. That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing. The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So, [00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him. [00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is. And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners. [00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance. If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us. [00:44:41] Applying the Parable to Our Lives [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them. And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy. [00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process. And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose. Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him. So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine. I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying. Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us. I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin. They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run. After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you. [00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy. Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will. Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing. I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it. And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in [00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right. [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy. And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy. She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption. She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it. Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work. Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened. I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of. In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody. Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation. [00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so. Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy. In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation. And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin,

In this episode of the Ferrari Marketplace Podcast, host William Ross along with special guests Chris Miele from Prancing Horse of Nashville and Sam Murtaugh from Mecum Auctions contribute to the conversation by focusing on the Bachman Collection, a notable assemblage of Ferrari models with exceptionally low mileage. They outline the Ferrari Classiche certification process, emphasize the importance of original components and low-mileage cars, and spotlight several key models from the collection, including the two 288 GTO, multiple F40s, an F50, and the LaFerrari. Miele and Murtaugh provide anecdotes about the collection's owner, Phil Bachman, and his dedication to preserving and maintaining his cars in pristine condition. The podcast anticipates high excitement and strong interest as these prestigious Ferraris go across the auction block at the Mecum Kissimmee auction. ===== (Oo---x---oO) ===== 00:00 Welcome and Guest Introductions 00:50 Discussing the Bachman Collection 03:18 Ferrari Classiche Certification Process 06:38 Spotlight on the 166 MM 07:37 The 275 GTB/4 Alloy Body 09:27 Auction Preparation and Process 11:57 The Unique 400i Manual 15:31 The 288 GTO and F40s; The Story of Two Incredible Cars 21:59 Phil's Journey to Acquire the F50 28:04 The Unique Enzo Ferrari 29:48 Phil's Collection and Memorabilia 34:20 The Passion Behind the Collection 37:58 The Upcoming Auction Event 39:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts ==================== The Motoring Podcast Network : Years of racing, wrenching and Motorsports experience brings together a top notch collection of knowledge, stories and information. #everyonehasastory #gtmbreakfix - motoringpodcast.net More Information: Visit Our Website Become a VIP at: Patreon Online Magazine: Gran Touring Follow us on Social: Instagram On Ferrari Friday's, William Ross from the Exotic Car Marketplace will be discussing all things Ferrari and interviewing people that live and breathe the Ferrari brand. Topics range from road cars to racing; drivers to owners, as well as auctions, private sales and trends in the collector market. Copyright William Ross, Exotic Car Marketplace a division of Sixty5 Motorsports. This episode is part of our Motoring Podcast Network and has been republished with permission.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the complexities of hiring in growing agencies. They highlight the challenges of finding skilled, reliable employees who align with agency values. Sharing personal experiences, Gini explains the pitfalls of hasty hiring and the benefits of thorough vetting and cultural fit. They stress the importance of a structured hiring process, including clear job roles, career paths, and appropriate compensation. They also underscore the value of meaningful interviews, proper candidate evaluations, and treating the hiring process as the start of a long-term relationship. Lastly, Chip and Gini emphasize learning from past mistakes to improve hiring effectiveness and employee retention. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “When we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went.” Gini Dietrich: “You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. Don’t ask if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?” Chip Griffin: “If you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems.” Gini Dietrich: “They say, hire slowly and fire fast for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines, so that they are getting the work done that you need done.” Related How to onboard new agency employees Get over your fear of hiring employees Hiring the best employees for your agency How to hire agency employees Setting honest expectations for your agency employees from the start Focus on agency employee retention View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, a few weeks ago, I think I fired you. Today, you’re hired, Gini Dietrich: You keep playing with my emotions. I don’t know how to do this anymore. I’m fired. I don’t get paid. Now you’re rehiring me. I don’t know what to do. Chip Griffin: Yeah, it’s difficult. Anyway. It is what it is. But no, we are gonna talk about hiring today because we are, you know, we can’t just talk about all the bad things. So, we’ll, we’ll spend some time talking about something that is overall more positive. Because if we’re hiring, hopefully that means that we are growing, or at least we have the need for additional resources, even if it’s replacing someone who has left. But it is something that is very challenging, so it can create its own problems along the way if you don’t do it right. So this is, something that comes from one of our favorite topic inspiration sources. Reddit. I know it’s a place that you live and breathe. Gini Dietrich: And by favorite, we’re using quotes “favorite”, scares the crap outta me. But ok. Chip Griffin: You are on Reddit all day every day. Just kind of combing around to see what conversations you can jump into. But this is one that was on there, probably a while ago honestly, it’s in our topic document. We didn’t date it, so I, I can’t tell you how long ago it was, but, what it says is, hiring the right people is harder than it looks. Finding skilled, reliable people who align with your values is a challenge. Early on, I rushed hires and paid for it in missed deadlines and miscommunication. Now I take more time to vet people and focus on cultural fit as much as skills. So I thought it would be helpful for us to have a conversation around how we approach the hiring process. How do we find the right fits? How do we vet those fits? And how do we frankly think about going from hiring them to, to beginning to on onboard them. We’re not gonna talk about the full onboarding process, but just sort of, you know, that, that evolution of saying, Hey, I need this role. Where do we go from there? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s, it’s funny you say that this is our topic today. ’cause just the other day I was thinking about some of the very early hires I made that didn’t work out. And all of the mistakes I made in, in hiring them. And I will say that one of the biggest mistakes that I make is I meet somebody online who has the right skillset from a paper perspective, resume perspective, and I just hire them. I’m like, oh yeah, you, you look like you can do the job. And we may have a conversation, but there’s no, like, thought about it. There’s no interviewing for skills. It’s more just like a, a conversation to see if we, we might be able to work together. And every time I have done that, it has not worked out. So earlier this year I hired a chief learning officer to help with like certification and, you know, all the professional development things we do on the PESO model front. And about three or four months in, we both realized that, that that while she can do that job and she’s great at that job, she would be more valuable as a chief operating officer. So we switched her over. And let me tell you, being professionalized on the hiring front is phenomenal. I mean, she has set up interview guides, so like if you are an assistant account executive, and this would be somebody that you report to maybe two or three levels up, and we’re having you interview, you have a set of questions. If you’re the direct report, you have a set of questions. So we, like, she’s created all this. She’s created salary bands and like, you know, a career path for everybody where from where they start and she’s done, she’s done it in such a way that it isn’t bloat, but it’s just kind of professionalized the way that we do things. And you don’t have to hire a chief operating officer to do this, like I know you, you like to talk. Patrick is your go-to person from an HR perspective, someone like Patrick can help create these things so that you can professionalize it because as they say, hire slowly and fire fast. That quote is there for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines so that they are getting the, the work done that you need done and you’re not being, like, I have been in, in the last 20 years of just hiring people I like. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I think that, you know, you’ve touched on some important things here and, and you do have to have some sort of a process in place. It doesn’t need to turn you do into a bureaucratic circus, Gini Dietrich: You do, right. Chip Griffin: But at the same time, you need to have a process. And, and it really, to me, starts with being clear about what it is that you need. And who it is that you’re trying to hire. And, and too often when we’re trying to hire, it’s either because someone has left or because we’ve got a new client. And so our, our mindset is we need to get someone in here quick because we’ve gotta relieve this pain and this pressure. But that often leads to some of those bad decisions because you’re not really evaluating. Not even just the individual, but the role. Mm-hmm. And you need to think through, you know, what do you actually need at any given point in time? And it’s one of the reasons why I am a very strong advocate of only hiring, particularly in small agencies, only hiring one person at a time, one role at a time. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because every time you add someone new to the mix, it changes a little bit what you think you might need in the next one. And if you hire two people simultaneously, it increases the odds that you don’t actually have the right mix of talent on board. So you’ve gotta be crystal clear with yourself about what you’re looking for, but to your point, you also need to have a process in place that helps to understand what are our salary bands, what are our titles? How does this fit in? What is their growth path? Because those are questions you will get during the interview process. And if you’re not clear about those things going in, you will either overpay or underpay or assign the wrong title. Or frankly, get the wrong person because you’re not thinking about it in the big picture. So put the thought process in upfront, and that is the, to me, the first step in making sure that you make as good a decision as possible. Accepting that frankly, a lot of hiring decisions are gonna be wrong. Right? Even of course, even, even the, of course, even the best organizations, of course with the, with robust HR teams and, and talent evaluation, they still have a lot of misfires, so you can’t beat yourself up over those. But you’ve gotta increase your odds by having the right thought process and structural process in place. Gini Dietrich: One of the things that, you know, early on I would do when I didn’t have a team who could interview people, I would ask my business coach, or I would ask, you know, friends that were in the industry, other agency owners, if they would participate in some interviewing, just to kind of get me out of the Gosh, I really like this person. I think we’ll work well together. And, rather than, gosh, I really like this person and I think they can do the job right. So just having different outside perspective helped me when I didn’t have a team that could also do the interviewing. So I think, you know, doing that kind of stuff too helps. And I also think that, you know, I, one of the biggest mistakes, and you touched on this that I’ve made, is not having that career path or clear career path. Because people come to work and even though you’re an entrepreneur and you’re the agency owner, and you kind of know in your head how things work, they need to know that because this is their career that you’re talking about. So they need to know that if I wanna be promoted in 6 months, or 12 months or 18 months or whatever it happens to be, these are the things that I need to achieve so that they’re working towards something, not waiting for the annual review and saying, am I up for a promotion? What does that look like? Do I get a raise? Like, so having those kinds of things I think is incredibly important upfront so that you know, this is what we expect, this is how you’ll get to the next step, and you can be very clear about that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, because it, it is a question that you absolutely will get. I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years. I continue to, to do interviews for clients, and I can tell you that you get a lot of those kinds of questions where people want to understand what their career path is. The other one they ask a lot is, what does a typical day look like? Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You’ve gotta have the answers for those questions as best you can, and, and you need to be honest with them where you don’t know. So don’t, don’t, you know, blow smoke and, and Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: You know, give them an answer if you don’t have one. If, if the honest answer is, I don’t know. Tell them that, but then also explain how you think about it or how you would go about it, or the kinds of things that, that might be included so that you can paint some kind of a picture there. Because it’s, it is important for people to evaluate it. And frankly, we look at these things as, as evaluating the talent for us. But they’re also evaluating us. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: And, and so you also need to make sure that in the process you’re giving them plenty of time to ask questions. In fact, I usually start by letting them ask questions for two reasons. One is because it helps them to get the information that they need to evaluate it. But second, you learn as much from the questions they ask as anything else. And to me, a red flag is when they have no questions at all. Gini Dietrich: No questions. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Because if they have no questions at all, it probably means they did no research. They’re probably not all that interested. They’re just trying to get a job of some kind. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean necessarily that they’re a bad fit. Some people just freeze up because they’re, you know, that’s, that’s not a traditional approach to interviews. To start by saying, what questions do you have of me? Right. By the way, introduce yourself first. Talk a little bit about the business and the role. I mean, don’t just, you know, say hello. What questions do you have? Gini Dietrich: Hello. What do you have? What questions can I answer? Chip Griffin: But, but honestly, I, I almost always will ask people what questions they have before I ask my first question. We just do the intros and then start with that, because you learn from that. And it, it also helps them get onto a more comfortable spot. And so you can steer the, the conversation, I think, more effectively that way. Gini Dietrich: One of my biggest pet peeves is, you know, now that we have a, a team who does the interviews, if the candidate gets to me, that means they’re one of the finalists, right? And I will say, what questions do you have of me? And they will say, and this happens more often than not. Well, I kind of already asked my all my other question, my questions from everybody else. So ask them again. Right? Make sure you get the same answer like. Right. Yeah, because that will, as I know we’re not talking, we’re not talking to candidates right now, but that will tell you as much if there’s, the answers are different than anything else. So that is also a red flag. Which brings me to, we actually created a list of red flags, and we’re going through the A process right now ’cause we’re hiring and our HR director is doing pre-screens, phone screens, and one of the red flags is Are you able to work with within bureaucracy and lots of change and indecisiveness and you know. And one, one of the people that’s interviewing said, I just don’t like bureaucracy. I don’t like lots of change. I don’t like indecisiveness, I’m not. And she was like, no, like, because we have our list of red flags. So it’s, it’s an easy way also to sort of get yourself out of the, gosh, I really like this person. I’d like to work with them. If you have that list of red flags that you will allow you to objectively say, probably not the right fit for this job. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and the more that you do of this, the more easily you can come up with those things that just, that it, they’re the indication that this may not be the best fit. Yeah. And I always encourage probing just to make sure that, and I prefer to think of ’em as orange flags rather than red flags most of the time. Because most of the time it’s more the accumulation of those things than, than a single one that Gini Dietrich: fair, fair, Chip Griffin: that says, okay, no, this isn’t the right fit. But I also like to probe. And so, you know, in an example like that, I might say, well, well why does that bother you? Why is that a problem? And just kind of see, Gini Dietrich: yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, what their, what their root thinking is, because I mean, chances are it’s not gonna change anything, but it’s always interesting to find out why. I think the other thing, and, and you touched on this in, in, you know, having a, a, an interview guide and all of that, if you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And I think I’ve shared this on the podcast before. Yes. But I have seen so many egregious questions in interviews Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Over the years that create substantial legal and regulatory issues. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Please, please, please train your juniors. Frankly, some of you probably need some training yourselves. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: On how to do this, Gini Dietrich: I was just gonna say yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: In a way that’s not causing problems. Yes. Because the, I mean, the questions that I’ve seen asked in interviews are just off the charts and, and, and so blatantly inappropriate. Gini Dietrich: Do you have some examples? Chip Griffin: Focus on, and, and, and the other thing is focus on questions that, that actually might reveal something that’s useful to you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You are not, this is not Google. You’re not out there trying to ask, you know, weird mind game questions. Ask straightforward questions. I, I mean, ’cause the other thing Gini Dietrich: if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be? Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, in addition to the inappropriate questions, you just get these dumb ones, right? Where someone, someone read an article and they’re like, oh, you learn so much if you ask, what kind of tree would you be? Really, you just look crazy as an interviewer. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You’ll look like you’ve lost your mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Just don’t do it. Have a real conversation. Treat them like a professional. Treat them with respect. Treat them like you would a prospect. Don’t sit there and, and try to play gotcha games. It’s not a quiz show. It’s not. If you want to go on a quiz show and, and you wanna run your own quiz show, fine. Do that. Your interview subjects, that’s not what it’s for. Don’t ask them in Google Analytics, where do you go to do this? Come on, seriously, just knock it off. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. Chip Griffin: And if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna try to apply tests to people, you gotta pay them. Gini Dietrich: I totally 100% agree with that. Chip Griffin: But you can’t, Gini Dietrich: yes. Chip Griffin: You can’t say, I need you to write a plan for me. Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: Or write a press release or something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Particularly if it’s for an actual client you have Correct. And you might actually use it. That’s just wrong. That’s, and I see that way too often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Where someone says, well, I need to evaluate you. I need you to, to do this. On the technical side, I’ve seen people ask to be written to write all sorts of code. Why? Gini Dietrich: Bad idea. I, you know what, actually Reddit is full of, of those like, so I’m interviewing for this job and they asked me to put together a 12 month plan complete with deck and strategy and blah, blah, blah. Is that normal? And I’m always like, no? Chip Griffin: No, Gini Dietrich: don’t do it. I understand the hiring market is tough right now, but no. Chip Griffin: It’s just bizarre. I mean, honestly, I, I would be suspicious of anybody who could put together that kind of a plan based on, you know, 10 minutes of conversation. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right. Chip Griffin: I mean, and that’s the other thing. You have to be realistic about what kinds of answers you can get from people in these short windows of time. And so it really is… it’s not necessarily about whether you like them, but it’s, it’s trying to get to understand how they think, how they approach things. You can get those big picture senses off of these conversations, but the, the more granular you get with your question, the less likely it is to be a reliable indicator. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and you need to, to again, treat it like a real conversation. So to the extent you have interview guides. Please use them. Just look through them and, and use it as, as a, a general format for the questions you might ask. Please do not do as, as. When I used to advise members of Congress and I prepared questions for them for hearings. Some of them would sit there and ask question one, question two, question three. They wouldn’t even listen to what the, the answer was from the witness at the hearing. They wouldn’t listen to what their colleagues had asked. So I, there were any number of situations where a member would read my question. The member previous to them had asked the exact same question, but they weren’t bothering to listen. Or they asked question one, and they move immediately to question number two, even though the person actually answered question number two as part of their response to question number one. Use your brain. Have a meaningful conversation. Do not walk through your, these are the 10 questions I always ask on interviews and just march through them Gini Dietrich: right Chip Griffin: in forced order. That doesn’t make any sense. You, you need to, to have a real meaningful conversation with someone if you wanna evaluate them properly. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. This, that’s ludicrous. Chip Griffin: Alright, so you, so we’ve, we’ve figured out what we need. We’ve done the interviews. So now how do we pick, we, you know, we’ve got, I mean, let’s say we’ve got a couple of finalists. They’re both in our view, viable finalists. They’re, they’re, they both could do the job. What do you weigh most heavily when you’re evaluating one versus the other? How, how do you make that difficult decision? Gini Dietrich: I’m the wrong person to ask that question ’cause it is based on whether or not I like you and that’s probably not the right response. Chip Griffin: I mean the, there has to be an element of that, particularly in a small agency. Right. You know, you Yeah. If you just, if if you, if you don’t get the right vibe off of someone and you’re like, ah, this just doesn’t… listen to yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Right. If, if you don’t enjoy having the conversations with that person during the interview process, Gini Dietrich: it’s not gonna get better. Chip Griffin: And maybe you say, well, but they’re, they have all the skills. They have all the connections. They know what they’re doing. Oh, it’d make my life so easy. Listen to yourself there. And that doesn’t mean that you have to have that, you know, you need to hire people that you want to go out and have a beer with after work or something like that. But, you know, you’ve gotta feel like, I could talk to this person Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: An hour or two a day and I, I wouldn’t lose my mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Don’t ever say they’ve got so much talent. I’m gonna ignore that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Never, because I, the way I think about it is, and the same thing with clients, I would say it will, it gets to the point that I’m gonna end up canceling meetings with this person or with this client. If the answer is yes, then it’s not the right fit. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and, and the flip side is true too. Going to your point very early in this conversation, if you, if you are enjoying your conversation with that person, don’t overlook the fact that they don’t actually have the skills Yeah. That match up. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, they are under, it will bite you, underqualified or overqualified for the role. They still need to be a fit for the role. No matter how much you enjoy uhhuh your conversations with them or how smart you think they are, Uhhuh, that they may be a good fit for your organization at some point in some role, but it may not be the one you’re hiring for now. Mm-hmm. So make sure that you’re clear with yourself and don’t talk yourself into something. I, I see this a lot where people will get through the hiring process and they find someone that they really like and they’re like, well, they’re not really a fit for this role, but I could see them doing this or that. It’s okay to be flexible, but make sure that whatever this or that is, is really something you need. And you’re not talking yourself into an additional expenditure or putting yourself in a position where, yes, you’ve got that person, but now you still have to hire for this other role. You, you may make things more difficult for yourself in that. So make sure that you’re always going back to what did you say you needed? And if we’re deviating from that, why? And is it, is it a sound business case for making that decision? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. Learn from me. Don’t make those mistakes. It costs a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of angst. It burns, some bridges. Learn from me. Chip Griffin: And, and also throughout the interview process, and I think we’ve talked about this on the, the show in the past before start thinking about those interview conversations, the hiring conversation where you’re making the offer. Think about all of those as part of the onboarding process. Because it really is a seamless transition or should be a seamless transition into the onboarding and ultimately retention. I mean, when, when we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went. Absolutely. The questions you asked, the way you handled yourself, all of that impacts things that will happen 6, 12, 18 months down the road or even more. Yeah. And so you need to be mindful of that and thinking about how would this person perceive the questions we ask, the process we follow, are we frankly canceling a lot of times on them during the interview process. You need to treat them with respect, if you want to be treated with respect, if you want to build a lasting relationship. So think about all of that at every step of the hiring process, from that first interview, to the last interview, to the offer, et cetera. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. It’s very, very, very important for you to be organized and prepared. Hire slowly. Those will be the things that save you from a hiring perspective. And like I said, learn from me and don’t always hire just people you like. Chip Griffin: There you go. But don’t hire people you dislike either. Gini Dietrich: So well, sure. But they also have to have the skills to do a good job. Chip Griffin: All right, well I guess with that, we’ll let you keep your job for now, so Gini Dietrich: Well thanks. Thanks. I appreciate it. Chip Griffin: On that note, we will draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

“What is your passion? Why are you doing this?” In this episode, Nick speaks with Vincent Wanga about the intersection of creativity, entrepreneurship, and leadership. Vince shares his unique journey through the creative industry, discussing the challenges and advantages of being an insomniac and how it has shaped his work ethic. What to listen for: Insomnia can be both a challenge and a competitive advantage. Leadership requires sacrifice and understanding of employee dynamics. Passion and purpose are essential for sustainable entrepreneurship. Vision is crucial for effective leadership and business success. Scaling a business requires preparation and understanding of resources. Failure is a necessary part of the learning process. Creatives must balance their artistic mindset with business skills. “Everything that I do is passion and purpose-rooted. And that should be your first mission.” When you anchor decisions in passion, you can more naturally stay motivated during the hard parts of the journey Purpose brings clarity, so you waste less time chasing things that don't matter. Leading with what lights you up often creates the most authentic and sustainable success. Passion-driven work tends to attract the right people and opportunities without forcing it. Starting with purpose sets the tone for how you show up. “Creatives have a visionary mindset. So why can’t creatives be those same CEOs? We just lack the business acumen.” Creativity is the foundation of innovation. Many creatives underestimate how transferable their skills are to leadership. Visionary thinkers often make better long-term strategists than traditional operators. When creatives embrace structure and systems, they become unstoppable leaders. About Vincent Wanga Vince is a dynamic international design thought leader, creative keynote speaker, award-winning creative and executive, author of “The Art of Direction,” serial entrepreneur, and experienced brand consultant with an exceptional range of expertise over a distinguished two-decade career. As former vice president and head of creative for one of the fastest-growing technology startups in North America, he oversaw corporate brand strategy and creative during unprecedented company growth from pre-Series A to an over $1 billion “unicorn” valuation. Vince lives in Washington, DC, and Asheville, NC, with his dog, Okello. When he is not working on new business ventures, he passionately travels the world, collecting creative inspiration at the finest boutique hotels rewards points can buy. https://www.vincentwanga.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/vincent-wanga/ Resources: Check out other episodes about creativity and entrepreneurship: Creativity Within Us All With Joe Tertel Post Traumatic Growth, When Trauma Makes You Stronger And More Creative With Christian Ray Flores Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today! https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/contact/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.507)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Vince Wanga. Vince, how you doing today? Vincent Wanga (00:11.372)I’m doing all right, Nick. I’m looking forward to our conversation and thanks for having me on. Nick McGowan (00:15.618)Yeah, absolutely. I’m excited, man. I think this is gonna be fun. I know there’s a lot that you’ve been through, a lot that you’ve done. One of the biggest reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was to be able to talk about creativity and how it ties into us as people, but also into the systems that we’re in, like the capitalistic system, our family systems, all those things. I grew up as a creative in a… not a typical creative house, so to say. So it felt a little weird, but that was the system that I was in. And then you get into jobs, you get into your career, and like, how do you do all that stuff? And that was one of the things that really stood out to me about having you on. So I’m gonna stop talking. Why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living, and what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? Vincent Wanga (01:00.142)Well, thank you. I am in a weird place in my career because I’m transitioning. I have been a creative at the highest levels and the lowest levels for 20 years. Started as an intern, worked my way up through the agency world, stints as a freelance independent operator working for clients all over the world to owning my own agency and having that unique experience as a business owner and operator. and all the responsibilities that come with managing employees and being responsible for payroll and profit and loss and the other side of the industry, as well as becoming a senior executive and top 100, well, first 100 employees for a billion dollar tech startup and a crazy transformational journey. So I only preface that to say I’ve done it all in so many different industries. I’ve worked with so many different sectors, in-house, freelance. agency, you name it in the creative sector, I’ve done it. And I think that offers me a lot of perspective and advice that I can offer to people, whether you’re creative or not, particularly in the aspects of leadership, which is something I really focus on at this point in my career. But as I mentioned, I’m in a major transition away from creative and more into my real core ethos, which is entrepreneurship and taking all that creative talent, marketing, business acumen into my own businesses and consulting and other opportunities to really express my creativity in a different way. So it’s a really exciting paradigm for me. As far as something that’s really unique about me, I could wax philosophic on that. But I think the most unique thing is I am an insomniac. I get an inhuman amount of sleep and it has been a very difficult, like physical manifestation in my life because that’s not healthy, but it has been an incredible. competitive advantage in my career, where I’m able to work day and night and create businesses on a weekend and maximize my time. But as I get older, the other side of the coin starts catching up and trying to figure out how to adjust as I move forward is a new paradigm I’m dealing with. But that’s one of many unique things about me. Nick McGowan (03:16.459)Wow, I’m really glad that you consider that a unique thing. that you see that as a… there’s kind of a silver lining that you look at that instead of some people saying like, well I just… I’m struggling with this thing. It sounds like even the personality that you have, like you’ll go, well I am kind of struggling but it is what it is and this is what it is. Then I could do something with it. And it’s funny how as you get older, things will shift and change just across the board. I mean we could have a whole fucking episode just about like the specific changes that happen from your knees and your back and the way you think about things. or whatever you don’t mean I wonder at times with the people that are insomniacs that it’s something that they actually kind of crave and it’s like a mental thing where like I want to keep going and I think about it from this perspective In the human design way I’m a generator and I have to use all of my energy every day So by the end of the day there are times where I’m like I’m totally done. It’s nine o’clock at night I guess I’ll go to sleep because I’m done for the day and like all the energy’s out other times It’s like three or four in the morning and it is what it is But for the people that… Nick McGowan (04:27.617)can hear that and say, well, you’re just trying to hustle and just trying to use all that to get ahead and do the grind and all that stuff. I’m reading between the lines and a little bit I know about you so far, that’s not the case with you. So it’s more of one of those like, I do these things because I’m led to do these things, but I also have a really hard time sleeping. So how do you manage that going through each day and saying like, all right, well, I got whatever amount of sleep and my body needs more, but I also have a lot of mental energy where it’s like you can feel the physical of like, man, I’m just fucking dragging. But my brain’s still going and like that must take a toll on you. I could imagine, you know, you have a week of that. Most people would just be driven insane. So how do you how do you manage that? Vincent Wanga (05:12.344)Yeah, and I think, you know, this reminds me of that. I think it was a New Yorker editorial cartoon that had a building in Manhattan with lights on. And it said these three lights are either a drug dealer, serial killer or creative. Right. We’re the only ones up at 3 a.m. So I don’t think it’s as unique within the creative realm. But I think what makes me unique is the duality that I’m up all night in human hours, but I’m also functional in the morning. Like I’ve stayed up for 72 hours before. Nick McGowan (05:25.854)Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:37.93)Hmm. Vincent Wanga (05:40.718)on deadlines and things that push beyond human norms and are completely unhealthy, but have also, again, like I said, been an advantage historically in my career. think the way my brain is wired, and I think a lot of critics can resonate with this, is I’m my most creative and intellectual at night. I could spend the same amount of time and energy between nine to five on the same thing, and that… You know, error of time, I could achieve better results in an hour at 3am. It’s just the way these ideas flow in my mind. It’s the same mindset for anyone who can’t relate where like CEOs get up early in the morning and take a bike ride or do a run. And then they come back to the office and now they got a new product idea that everybody’s got to scramble to do. It’s the CEO brain, but it just kicks on at the wrong time. but it is, it is a burden, because it’s not healthy. And unfortunately there’s, there’s Nick McGowan (06:30.472)You Vincent Wanga (06:39.982)long-term cognitive effects that happen on that and there’s a diminishing return. But I think the most important point here is that I didn’t want to be this way. This is something that evolved from my artist background where I would the only time I had to myself and peace and quiet to create was at night. It started kind of rewiring my brain and then I went to college long story short got kicked out because of money and found myself with my career over before it even started. So I had to hustle and work twice as hard as everybody else just to get started. I started at a deficit. So I always maximize my time in order to try to achieve the results that I needed to get back into the industry. And then the third thing I think people can resonate with is if you’re an entrepreneur, it’s this paranoia when you go to sleep and you don’t want to wake up with bills. You don’t want to wake up with problems. You just want to stay up and solve everything that you can. you could have $10,000 in your bank account for that week and still feel insecure. And I think that just keeps me up at night constantly hustling and hoping that that hustle prevents the worst case scenario from happening. So it’s just this convolutions of things that are part of my experiences and my mindset. But it has been an advantage up until about now where I’m kind of paying the health effects of it, but it’s helped me become incredibly successful. And I think that’s a unique. perspective for me. Nick McGowan (08:09.086)I love when conversations head this way. I’ll ask that question every single episode. So everybody listens. They’re used to that question being asked. But I love when that question invokes us going down a different path for the conversation. Obviously, we were going to talk about creativity and leadership, and that just jives with us both. But that’s a really important thing, I think, to get into because you had neural pathways that were literally changed. And you created these paths so, so many years ago saying, like, everybody leave me the hell alone. Great, you’re all asleep. Everybody’s left me alone. I get to do the thing I want to do. And then you turn that, especially as an agency, for anybody that’s been in any sort of agency, imagine running around with your hair on fire, 15 other people having their hair on fire, and somebody just yelling at you constantly, and you’re constantly late on things that you’re actually pretty much on time for with your projects. And that’s like a typical Tuesday in most agencies. And that will drive you Vincent Wanga (08:41.592)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (09:08.848)to have more those neural pathways change because then you have to do things at night. Dude, I’ve been in the same spot where it’s like we have this thing coming up, somebody sent this thing back to me and it’s time for me to QA it or just basically give it once through. Seven hours later you have to do a complete re-haul or whatever and from a leader’s perspective you have to love on that person and help them and work through them. You can’t just go and physically slap them in the back of head and go, the fuck? That’s my first question, you know? So as a creative, I’m right there with you. think a lot of us do have that. Nocturnal energy almost to be able to create but I wonder if a lot of that does come from like when you were in middle school or high school like Just everybody leave me alone. Like when your parents tell you like go to your room. You’re like, thank God awesome now Will you all just stay can I lock the door and like just paint or whatever? I want to do and then that turns into the the systems that we’re in that tell us you have to grind you have to hustle and I I just wonder about how many people are still stuck in that because they don’t see the patterns of, well, I’m having a hard time with this. Like, you see that there’s a pattern with you being an insomniac. But how do you actually combat that, work on that, and not drive yourself crazy each and every day, you know? Vincent Wanga (10:31.522)Yeah, I think that’s a challenge. I think there’s a few ways I can approach that question. One, I really loved your point about the sacrifice of leadership. I think a lot of people underestimate that. It’s like the swan analogy, where it’s calm and collected at the top, but your feet are vigorously swimming and kicking. I think people who are employees and check in nine to five and their check clears on Monday when it’s payday. don’t understand the sacrifice sometimes that their leadership have to make to make that happen. And part of that is that paranoia that we deal with every single day. You know, I also think, you know, I’m highly functional introvert. So I love the quiet time that that allows me to think and to process and to execute on. But I also love that quote. I hope I’m not misquoting them. I think it was by Warren Buffett who said it took me 10 years to be an overnight success. There is no skipping the grind, the hustle. Nick McGowan (11:13.436)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (11:25.959)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (11:28.258)the sacrifice, know, your family hates you and you don’t see people enough and your friends are wondering if you’re okay. And that’s what it takes to build business, to build legacy, to build anything. So whether I had this unique deposition to work on godly hours or not, I think people find the will in the way because there’s no shortcuts around that to success. And that’s what you got to do. And if you’ve got a nine to five job, well, guess what? Now you got to work five to nine. and find the time that you need to execute on something. And I think it’s more of an entrepreneur’s brain than a creative’s brain. again, like I said, it’s been advantageous in ways and disadvantageous in others. Nick McGowan (12:07.259)I think they actually tie together though, the creativity and the entrepreneurship. I’ve met, god I can’t even put numbers to the amount of entrepreneurs I’ve met over the course of time, but I could probably say in one hand that the people that weren’t really creative and… Vincent Wanga (12:17.667)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (12:24.125)definitely told me like I am not creative at all. But then when you look at their processes, how they handle situations, all of it is just oozing creativity. They’re just not creative in the medium of painting or graphic design or web or whatever it is, but they’re still being creative in how they handle it. Shit, even leaders that are like, okay, well I know if I yell at you as a creative, you’re not gonna do the work that you need to do and you’re probably gonna hate it here. So how do I talk to you nicely about it? That is a creative approach. approach to it where you’ve been in spots, I’ve been in spots where somebody clearly didn’t take that spot and they just yelled at you about the thing because they’re hurt or they’re upset and they can’t manage themselves and they’re just diving it at you. But there is a lot of creativity that ties into that. And I think there’s a lot of people that talk about being an entrepreneur with really a hobby in a sense and not understanding that basic principles of entrepreneurship is you just have various means of income and you just work on things as a creative. You can sit down and work on things for six hours and you think, shit, I was doing this for two hours, but six hours later, I’ve been standing here, I’ve been working through this thing. And I want to dive deeper into this because I don’t want people to think that you’re saying to them, you just need to grind. No matter what you’re feeling, what you’re doing, just shut up and grind. That’s not the case. But how do you balance that? Because I know people that literally they take that ethos and just say, well, this is who I am. And it’s in a It’s a false way for them instead of being able to say like this is who I am because man I’m just so passionate about this thing that I eat sleep and dream this because this is my purpose in the world instead of saying well the system tells us this and my god I got a mortgage and these mouths to feed and whatever else it’s like you have to shift from that so how do you shift from that? How did you? Vincent Wanga (14:15.714)Man, I think that’s such a good point. I think too many people get enamored with the grind part, right? That’s what they teach you in investment banking. That’s what they teach you in all these other segments. Just grind and the reward will come and they’ll dangle this carrot in front of you that somehow disappears on your journey, right? Entrepreneurship’s very similar. And I’ll just say, this is the hardest shit in the world, like next to raising a child. Like it is incredibly difficult and that’s… Nick McGowan (14:37.446)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (14:42.102)what discourages most people. But I think the point that you made that was really excellent is you first have to have a purpose. What is your passion? Why are you doing this? Never have I thought when I’m in an entrepreneurial pursuit and I’m working, you know, 18 hours a day, did I ever feel burnt out? Isn’t that interesting that I can go to a typical corporate job and after five hours just can’t wait to leave, but I’ll work nonstop on my own thing and never feel burnt out. I have stress maybe related to money or something. but it’s not work stress. And I think that’s because everything that I do is passion and purpose rooted. And that should be your first mission. Don’t do this thing because you think it’s going to make you rich. You know, start that brewery because you love beer, you love the science of beer, and that you realize that by getting into that business, you are now an agriculture. You’re a farmer. You need to know about hops and the process and supply chain and fermentation. And you are a chemist and you got to figure out the right, you know, balance in order to have the best beer in the world. Otherwise, don’t do it. Nick McGowan (15:11.93)Yeah. Nick McGowan (15:21.561)Hmm. Vincent Wanga (15:41.056)So I think people need to understand what’s your passion would start there. The grind is easy if you’re passion and purpose driven and don’t let that kind of blind you. Start with your passion and your purpose. And that’s really helped keep me balanced so that I make sure the most precious commodity I have right now at this age is my time. And I make sure that just like my money, I invested reasonably and responsibly and only things that really bring me value in return. I think my second point is The grind is should be front end, you know, where your typical nine to five and there’s no wrong path is something you progressively invest in. And at the end, around 65 years old, you get your benefit and you get to go, you know, travel and live in Florida and do whatever you want with your life and retirement. Entrepreneurship is different. You literally grind for three years. The first year you’re just getting established. The second year you’re trying to become profitable. That third year, if you make it that far, you might actually thrive and have a business. And unless you’re paying yourself, Like you said, it’s just a hobby. So you have to be serious about this, understand the business fundamentals, but also understand for three years you’re in the suck and you have to work and work hard. And if you’re passionate and purpose driven, it won’t feel like a burden. And then you get your reward where all of a sudden you have enough profit to hire a COO or even a CEO as a founder to run your business and employees and your scaling and it gets easier. So you just have to understand the different philosophies between a nine to five and entrepreneurial pursuit. and make sure you’re passion and purpose driven and that will really help you keep balanced in this kind of crazy lexicon that is working like we do. Nick McGowan (17:17.338)Yeah, especially here in the States. We work much more than other people, but then there are other countries that… It’s the system that they’re in and how they go through it. I think one of things that you pointed out that really stood out to me was how when you take that approach of the passion and the purpose and you’re doing those things, you’re gonna work so much more on that because you’re fired up about it instead of doing whatever reports or whatever BS meetings or whatever you’re doing at nine to five. And you can just keep working on these things. But as you do that, you really start to stretch that muscle. So it’s like you’re able to handle things in year two, year three differently than you could in year one or even year two, let’s say, because everything starts to stack up. So in a very black and white way, for the most part, I think the people that listen to the show are leaders, at least in what they do, if not entrepreneurs, and there are a lot of entrepreneurs that are already in their business. But the people that think about, want to get out of my job, I want to get into a business, if you’ve got to go through that work anyway, and you’re just going to basically jump in a boat and go down that river. Don’t you want to go down the river with the stream instead of trying to fight up it like you’re currently doing in your nine to five? And it’s like, how do you then take that approach and say, all right, well, this is what I want. And there is a difference between passion and purpose. I think we have a seed of purpose that’s within us and there are ways that we get to show our passion with that purpose. But if you can tie that stuff together, you’re almost unstoppable. There’s shit that’s going to happen, but you’re going to get through that. When you talk to different Vincent Wanga (18:34.254)Sure. Right. Nick McGowan (18:58.138)from people about that sort of stuff and tying those two together. What’s the way that you can kind of put that into a vision to be able to show this is where these two pieces kind of can join? Vincent Wanga (19:06.818)Yeah, and I think for me to tell a little story, I was a senior designer art director at an agency in Minneapolis at the time. And I was getting really good insights on the business side of creative from the particular owner I was working with. He was very transparent about those things. So I found out how much he was profiting per employee, particularly me. And that didn’t match up with my salary. Now he’s a business owner. has every right to a profit. That’s not what I’m questioning. What I said is that my value is significantly higher than I thought it was this whole time. I thought it was defined by my salary. And the funny thing about these nine to five jobs, and I’m not knocking them, we all have done it and are having to do it, but they pay you just enough to kill your dreams. You know, I’m sure you’ve heard that before and just enough to be comfortable. And when I realized the potential there, I started taking advantage of that, you know, five to nine time that overnight time. I started, you know, freelancing and getting clients. And when I compared the numbers, I realized if I went full time with my own hustle, I could triple my income and not triple my work hours. So that was the passion part, right? So what that did is it led into my purpose and the purpose was, and I think this is really important is oftentimes when you get into entrepreneurship, Money should never be your motivation. Money is a reward that comes down later. It should be rooted deeper than that. But if you can tie your entrepreneurship with your lifestyle, your ideal lifestyle and outcome, that is the greatest gift in earth. So for example, imagine you’re a snowboarder and you just want to go to Vail and Whistler and, you know, go down the most amazing double black diamond mountains and make that a part of your lifestyle. Imagine starting a business. where you could be in that community and make profit. Now you’re in your ideal lifestyle, your ideal community, and you have a business that helps fund that. And that was kind of my motivation. So I am now independent, tripling my income. I’m working half as much. I’m able to travel the world. And as long as I have wifi, I can continue to make money indefinitely in whatever country I stay in. It was the most incredible lifestyle of my life. And there’s some limits to that we can talk about later, but it gave me this purpose. Vincent Wanga (21:29.1)and passion combined to continue to progress. And I think people just really need to identify not just passion and purpose, but what is that ideal lifestyle that you want this to lead to? What is that outcome? What is that ambition that you have? If you don’t have that goal and you’re just starting out, what are you doing? You’re making trinkets. You’re not getting paid. You have a very expensive hobby that’s probably gonna cost you your family. So you really have to understand at the end of the day, this is a business. You have to have business fundamentals and run it accordingly. And I think you’ll be in a much better place than just going on some wild adventure because you don’t want to wake up at 9 a.m. I promise you, you’ll be disappointed by entrepreneurship if that is the case. Nick McGowan (22:08.812)Yeah, and it’s interesting because that’s like, there are like shades to that almost. You know, like there are times where you call it like we can’t sleep or we have a hard time because we’re thinking we got to pay for this. We got this thing coming in. There’s this thing and I’m sure there’s a left hook that’s going to come out of nowhere and like whatever and you just kind of manage through that stuff. You work through it. But if you are in a better mental spot because of the passion and purpose that you have to do these things, you can actually handle those things instead of just being crippled by it. I’ve thought many different times about how many people got into podcasting during COVID because they were like, what the fuck? I have nobody to talk to. I don’t know what to do right now. I guess I’ll start a podcast or people that became a coach and are like, I guess I’ll become coaches. And if you look at the numbers, they all skyrocketed. then quickly after that just shot down. So many people just couldn’t do it, didn’t want to do it, didn’t have the skills or whatever. And ultimately it wasn’t right for them to be able to do it. Now there are lots of people that stuck with it. I started this in 2014. Vincent Wanga (22:47.256)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (23:15.145)So I wasn’t one of those ones that just started it in 20, but I remember thinking that too. Like well now I’m stuck at the house. What am gonna do? And had friends that I talked to and then just came a podcast and whatever else from there. But being able to actually understand like you’re going to start to take those steps and it doesn’t all have to happen at once. So even with the stuff you’re saying like you get to travel, you make money, you do these things. To somebody if they’re listening on the surface they’re gonna go okay cool you’re just another one of those guys who just like pushes this thing and says I live the best life in the world and work. Vincent Wanga (23:22.648)Right. Yep. Nick McGowan (23:45.148)two hours a day and I harvest butterflies and get four billion dollar homes. Like it’s not what we’re saying. But this is a stacked upon process. Like I talked to people at times, I had somebody on recently it was like man you were in like Idaho and Montana and doing this and you travel and it’s like yeah but this has been a work in progress. This isn’t just one of those things like last Tuesday. It’s like you know what fuck everything else and we’re gonna travel we’re gonna do this thing. It’s like you have to build upon those things so you have to take those initial steps. So for somebody trying to figure out right now. I hear what you guys are saying, I want to take these steps and I think I kind of know what I want to do but I’m afraid to do it as a creative saying I’m stuck in this system and I have to pay for things and I’ve built this whole big career and what do I do now? What advice do you give them? Vincent Wanga (24:35.496)well, the first thing is it’s mostly rooted in fear. Release your inhibition of fear because you will fail. You will fail big, you will fail small, you will fail often. I think what actually ironically makes me successful is my lack of fear of failure. I could write a whole thesis on failure and how that’s affected me. But the true reality is it’s been the greatest education of my life. More than a Harvard MBA could teach me going out there doing something really hard and failing or succeeding in that are immense lessons that you can apply to the next thing and you’ll fail a little bit less and apply to the next thing and fail a little bit less. And I just talked about earlier how your job posting a position where you, you don’t want to risk that comfortability to go out there and potentially fail, but you have to understand that’s part of the cycle and learning process that gets you to success. love that Japanese proverb, you know, fall down seven times, get up eight. That’s, that is, it’s a cliche, but it’s so true. You just have to. Nick McGowan (25:29.973)Hey. Vincent Wanga (25:35.192)get out there and fucking do it. And I think the other most important thing is people get into this journey and they’re not prepared for scale. They never think about it. I think they’re too absorbed in the lifestyle part. Like, okay, I get to work from home. I get to take my kids to baseball. This is great. I want to stay in this comfortable zone. If you’re too successful, if you fuck up, you actually have something that scales. Now you need employees. Now you need people to run your business. Nick McGowan (25:52.084)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (26:03.842)Now you need to redo your supply chain. Now things get more expensive. Now you got to pay attention to your margins. Nobody has that ambition. So always enter this with what is that ideal grand scale? If you’re just in this to just, you again, have this hobby mindset, you will fail and failure is okay, but you need to realize you’re building a business. What is the plan for scale? What is the grand ambition? What is the ideal circumstance you want to reach? And then what resources do you need to get there? I think the second most important thing is Choosing your business partner wisely. And I’m emphasizing business partner like it’s almost a requirement. Sure, you can get to a certain level by yourself. You know, there’s that saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. You need a partner. Nobody has expertise in everything. So figure out what your core competencies are. If you can’t, failure will do that for you. Figure out what you do enjoy and then go find a business partner who complements your skills or compensates for the things that you’re not skilled at. And together. that you and that person can build something really immense and double your time. Because I think the biggest dilemma, particularly in entrepreneurship, historically has been, how do you duplicate yourself? You get to a certain point, how do you find somebody else who will work as hard as you, who’s as motivated as you, who’s as passionate about you? And I think in this age of AI, it doesn’t take a founding team of six anymore. You, another competent person, and three AI agents can really get to a place where you can scale effectively and efficiently in three years. So you just have to think about the grand perspective and not treating it as a hobby. And I think that’s half the way to success and release that inhibition of failure. know the stakes get greater as we get older, but imagine, you know, I mentioned Warren Buffett earlier, if he thought that way, imagine if George Washington thought that way, if Martin Luther King thought that way, like anything worth doing is hard. So get over it, get out there and do it and fail. Take those lessons, apply it to the next thing until you succeed. Nick McGowan (28:01.332)I think something to point out with. George Washington, Buffett, anybody else. Like there are times where I bring up purpose and people are like, well, I don’t know if my purpose is supposed to be the next Steve Jobs or something. No, that was his. Let him have his. You do yours. George Washington, Buffett, everybody else had these thoughts of like, this is where I want to get to. This is what I want to do. But it wasn’t like, I’m going to do this because it’s deep in my heart that I’m going to become George Washington or Buffett or whatever else. They had to actually build upon those things. And there are people that just want to have a solo business. There are people that want to have a small business. And by small, I mean, you know, a few handful of employees, maybe they make millions of dollars, but like, it’s a group of a small group of people. There others that want to have a huge bustling business of hundreds of employees and all of that. But I think it’s important for us to actually talk to ourselves about, do you want it? Because you want the ego of purposes of, have all these employees. I have all these things. Look at the boat that I have that I never get into because I have to work and manage all these employees. What’s the actual purpose underneath that? And I think as a creative and the people that are creatives, we can rely on the creativity inside of us because that’ll always nudge us along. It’s sometimes really hard to listen to. I’m sure you’ve experienced some of that going through probably years where you’re like, it’s hard to listen to it. I’m being creative, but I’m not really being creative. You’re getting paid to be a creative, but you’re basically like churning things out or using of stuff and not really creating but everybody’s like well this looks amazing and you’re like I fucking hate it and I hate you and I hate all this stuff so leave me alone. So for people that are in that spot right now and really for the people that are on their path towards self mastery what sort of advice would you give to them? Vincent Wanga (29:47.938)Well, speaking specifically to creatives, I think you can relate. We have a very unique mindset when it comes to certain things. And I think people misdiagnose us that our advantage is somehow attached to our hands and the software and skills. It’s our mentality in the way that we think. For example, the way we solve problems are completely different. What most people would see as an obstacle, we see as a challenge and we use our creativity to get around it. With the systems that we build, the solutions that we build, that’s what we get paid for. So I think that is an invaluable skill when, whether it’s business or your nine to five is remembering that that is your core competency and your greatest value that you bring is your ability to uniquely solve problems. And that’s why we are employed in every single industry in the world and have survived all kinds of efforts to remove us from those industries. And they keep coming back to us because of that skillset. think in addition to that, you just have to really be prepared for change. And we are an adaptable force. Look at all of the journeys that we’ve been through from the digital revolution and the elimination of print to interactive and AI, all of these things we are at the bleeding, cutting edge of. So we are in a natural position to be early adapters, to see and flesh out these new emerging technologies and see if they’re viable or not, and then use them to our advantage in a competitive sense against some of our non-creative peers in order to thrive. it while others are being replaced by it. So I think we need to recognize our power in that context and use that to our advantage. I’ll also add that you look at the highest level of leadership, a CEO, right? They have immense powerful responsibilities, but the number one is to create vision. They create the vision like Steve Jobs saying, I want a thousand songs in your pocket. And then it trickles down to the rest to execute and to figure out how to make that vision a reality. So vision is a creative mindset. creatives have visionary mindset. So why can’t creatives be those same CEOs? We just lack the business acumen. And I think if I was a creative in that position, that’s the first thing I would balance and start studying is what business skills do I lack that can compliment this thing that is very rare, which is that creative mindset that could make me unstoppable in the marketplace. And I am on this mission in my life to help creatives become more entrepreneurial, to think more business minded because the hardest skill we already have. Vincent Wanga (32:15.498)So having that balance that yin and yang between the creativity and conceptual and the analytical and business mindset will really put you in a place where you will be much more successful than if you try to pursue anything with just one mindset or the other. Nick McGowan (32:30.736)Yeah, what a cool way to be able to put that too. It’s like just being resourceful in that sense. You know, if you think from a basic creative perspective, if you’re just sketching, we need paper or something to draw on. You need the pen or pencil or whatever. And then you need the time. You need these pieces to do these things. So any of these things are like, well, what pieces do I need? Even to the fact about the partners, it’s like, what am I lacking here? What am I not a 10 at? And what does somebody else attend at that I could even just Have some help with some people don’t want to take on partners. They want to do the business by themselves I think that’s where coaches mentors come into play to be able to say I’ve been through this and before here’s some suggestions Here’s how you can go about it. Even just that fact of like just reaching out and having some of those conversations There’s somebody that’s out there. There’s some information that’s out there and I I Don’t want everybody to just lean on AI and everybody’s gonna do whatever they’re gonna do, but I do think that atrophies things I use AI at times. I mean fucking everybody does. It’s more so just being pushed on us at this point. But not literally just saying, I’m just going to hand this thing off and not understand how it is. Like you pointed out earlier, if you want to have a brewery, you have to be all these different things. And if all that is too much for you, don’t do it. If you just want to be a money person, then sure, be a money person and never show up. Maybe go and have a beer every once in a while and that’s it. That’s a whole different story though. Like where the fuck did you get that money from? Did you create a business to do that? know, or some Vincent Wanga (34:00.134)Sure. Nick McGowan (34:00.451)somebody handed to you. But being able to point that out and understand the resources of that and then what you’re good, what you’re not good at, I think it’s really good stuff, man. So I appreciate you bringing that up. It’s been a pleasure having you on. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Vincent Wanga (34:14.382)No, I really appreciate the conversation. Again, I speak all over the country and internationally. So if I’m in a conference in your area, please feel free to come up to me. And I love meeting new people, especially in different industries. In addition to that, have a website, VincentWongred.com, where you can see some of my other thought leadership across entrepreneurship, creative, design. Leadership is another thing I speak on often. I also have a book called The Art of Direction. personal perspectives on the path to creative leadership. So that is available through Amazon, Walmart, all the major online retailers and for special order at your bookstore. It’s a book about leadership. And I think that’s agnostic of just the creative industry and the unique, soft and hard skills that you need to make that leap that few people are prepared for. So it also very deeply personal and talks a little bit about my experiences and my journey and of course my failures and how that led to my success. And then you can also contact me on LinkedIn and Instagram through my website. Those are the primary ways you can get a hold of me. Nick McGowan (35:20.208)And again, it’s been pleasure having you on Vince. I appreciate your time. Vincent Wanga (35:23.478)Absolutely. Thank you,

Onboarding a new team member has turned into a very transactional process. In this episode, Tiff and Monica discuss how to add authenticity, connection, and engagement to the mix. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Welcome back. I am just so happy to have all of you. know there are so many people out there that support the Dental A Team in so many amazing ways. And you guys being here downloading these podcasts and having that little, I know Apple allows the like auto download. I always love that. Cause when I'm on flights, I can just, you know, podcast. But you guys being here.   pushing those through for us, being here to just support who we are, what we do is so truly incredible, whether you're a client, a future client, or someone who's just here to listen and you're like, ⁓ you know, never gonna sign up, we don't really have a preference of how you get to us. We just love that you're here. We wanna deliver all of the most amazing information that we possibly can. You might notice we share a lot of information, a lot of tips and tricks, a lot of like, I don't know, feel like, Monica, I feel like they're like.   secrets, trade secrets, right? And people are like, gosh, I'll just listen to your podcast. I'm like, fantastic, do that, do that. When you're ready for someone like Monica, who I have here with us today, you guys, to be like, I'm gonna push you a little bit further. She's here, we're here, and we're ready to help you get to that next level. And as I said, you guys, this is a truly, truly exciting day for us. I have Monica back on the podcast with me today. I am so excited to have you here, Monica. I know.   Monica Gomez (00:57) ⁓ yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:20) Previously, I've kind of given a good spiel of who you are and how we found you. And we got to record a podcast, if you haven't listened to it yet, about this really hiring tips and strategies. But there's so much to learn about Monica, her coaching style and who she is in that episode. So if you haven't listened to it yet, go do that. And as an introduction today, Monica, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. And I just I'm excited to pick your brain. love I love watching.   I feel like I get to watch the flow of how thoughts come to you and it's just really fun and I love our time together. Thank you for blocking out your morning and being here with me this morning and Monica, how are you? How was your weekend? How's life? How's Monica?   Monica Gomez (02:05) ⁓ Life is great and I'm starting off my week with podcasting with you ⁓ and this is so fun. This is my second podcast and I'm so excited to be here. Our first one was really, there was a flow to it, right? It was a ⁓ great little conversation, valuable. We dropped lots of gems, you guys, so go listen to that podcast and I'm excited to be sharing this space again with you, Tish. Thank you for having me.   The Dental A Team (02:21) Yeah.   Thank you, thank you. I do love this and it actually makes me think this is like a little off topic here, but just for a smidgen of time. love the podcast space with you consultant ladies ⁓ on our team because I love that this is a space where I get to, I think I get to share how much I love you guys. Like how much admiration I have, how much I look up to you guys and get to like extract so much.   knowledge and input from you. And I think this is our space of like, truly having some connection time. And we have our one on ones, I mentioned that before, but those are so goal driven and work driven. It makes me think I love relationship and community. And I think that's something that humans are learning again, we're relearning that we need that. I think we lost that for a moment of time here recently and   in the years and we're coming back to that. You kind of don't know what you have until you lose it sometimes and we lost that space. And I think this is our space of true community. We do have our weekly meetings, we have our one-on-ones, we have our data-driven, work-driven time together, but the podcasting space is actually really special to me because I do get to, I get to get to like, want, we get to put you guys out there and I get to just spend this time with you.   And it makes me think you mentioned something on the last podcast that we had recorded together. You mentioned that intentional team time together and that like just clicked. As you're talking, like it clicked for me. This is our intentional time together and instilling that into, infusing that into the workplace. It's really special. And I want doctors and owners and leaders and anyone who's here, dental assistants, treatment coordinators, I don't care who you are. I want you to...   know from the bottom of my heart, this is a really special place and you don't need to go start a podcast unless you want to. But having that intentional time, like coffee time, like go in the break room and have coffee together and talk about your weekend. Like me getting to hear about Monica's family life and Charlie, her puppy, getting to know those pieces of you personally, it changes and it shifts our dynamic. So I wanted to highlight that because as you were speaking, I was like, my gosh, this is   Monica Gomez (04:44) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:57) something we haven't had yet because this is only our second podcast together, but that I know I do have with the other consultants and it just totally clicked for me because we just, think, mentioned that in the last one. So Monica, thank you for being here. Thank you for letting me say all that and for giving me this intentional time today.   Monica Gomez (05:15) Yeah, thanks, Tiff. Yeah, I think ⁓ this time together, we get to peek, a little peek behind the veil, right? And yeah, we do have a lot of connection time. It's structured time, right? But the value of unstructured time is just gold. is, ⁓ it builds trust, it builds ⁓ camaraderie, it builds affinity, it builds ⁓ an endearing, right? An endearing kind of sense of   The Dental A Team (05:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (05:44) of viewing the other person in a different light. So yeah, I think this is a powerful, like meaningful time. I agree with you. I agree with everything that you said. This is definitely a special magical space. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:53) Yeah.   Yeah, thank you.   Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And again, if you didn't listen to the last podcast, I know this is the third or fourth time we're saying it. You should. This is kind of I think Monica actually helped me choose today's topics that she wanted to speak on. I think they actually naturally flow together. So I would maybe even listen to this one after the last one or listen to this one. And then I don't care which order you do it in, but listen to both of them is my is my point here, because today we really we're going to talk about onboarding.   Monica Gomez (06:07) You   The Dental A Team (06:28) And you can onboard anyone, but I think maybe when we add in onboarding the right team member, because the last podcast we recorded was really how to hire the right team member and hiring with intentionality and meaning behind it. And the onboarding, Monica, I think has to flow off of that. If we're not continuously showing up as the person we wanted to hire, like we talked about in the last one.   If we show up in the interview space and we're like, this is who I want you to be, but then we're onboarding and we're like, meh, meh. We're like, this is boring person and we want somebody who's dynamic and fun and engaging and speaking to the patients, but we're like, not that person. I think it makes a huge difference. So Monica, as you've trained people, as you've onboarded, you've trained practices to do this, what are some key highlights that you like to infuse into the onboarding process?   Monica Gomez (07:16) Yeah, great topic. And I agree, this one goes hand in hand with our previous podcast. know, onboarding traditionally has been very much transactional, right? Here's your cubby, here's what you do, here's where you sit, here's how you answer the phones, right? We've got to move. Well, there's a part of it that has to be transactional because you have to learn, you know, what your job is and, you know, the daily to do's.   But I think if we lead with that, it's a mistake. ⁓ As I mentioned before, and we talked about how the workforce has changed, ⁓ and we're leading with connection and engagement and authenticity and all those components that make us unique, I think we, I really feel that we need to move.   from a transactional place to a transformational or transcendental. ⁓ It's gotta be more about behaviors, right? And how we wrap our arms around like this new person that's joining our little family, right? How would you like to be welcomed into a team that would make you feel welcome and received with open arms and warmth? That's how we have to welcome our new people.   The Dental A Team (08:19) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (08:37) You know, we've invested so much time and energy in interviewing our job post, our, you know, filtering our candidates, interviewing, that whole hiring process, offer letter, the whole nine yards. And then we just throw them in, sink or swim. We've got to add, we've got to be intentional and we've got to add more value to the onboarding piece because, you know, people sometimes are left thinking like, gosh,   The Dental A Team (08:55) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (09:06) this is not the place that I thought it was gonna be, right? Like make it the place that you post it on your job ad, right? Like create, you get to be the creator. You're the co-creator, right? This is your platform. Like what do you wanna create for your new people, right? And I think transaction.   It's always part of our industry and in the workforce, right? There is a transactional piece to working. ⁓ But again, that humanist, right? And so one great tip, I'll start with one tip and I'll turn it over to you, Tiff. ⁓ One great tip is have a welcome packet for your team, right? A t-shirt, their name tag, little, you know, if you picked up little sprinkles of who they are and what they like in the interview, like,   The Dental A Team (09:53) Mm.   Monica Gomez (10:04) put together a nice little welcome basket for them, a pen post-it, a nice little saying. I think that's, wow, I mean, that's super impactful on their first day, right? Like, welcome to the team and have everybody go around at Morning Huddle and just give a little shout out as, you know,   The Dental A Team (10:12) Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (10:31) how valuable it is to have a new team member. I think that's super simple and important.   The Dental A Team (10:37) Yeah, I love that. think you hit on something really important there. It's really that feeling of being welcomed, coming into a new space is, I mean, we don't even like going to a party unless we know, a dinner party, unless we know everybody who's gonna be there, right? We're like, I only know two people. Like, is that enough? Right? I got a text from a friend the other day that was, know, or not the other day, it's been a bit, but for, you know, Halloween. And then she's like, I gotta go to this thing with my husband. And like, I don't know anybody. And I was like, okay, like this is, we're all coming into this dinner party not knowing.   anybody else, even if you've done working interviews, you still don't know them. So I love that really just toning in on the personal piece and the relationship, because if you can have a relationship with them, you can, you know, build that camaraderie just from the get go. I think they actually retain information and onboard quicker as well. So I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (11:26) It's hard being an adult, you know? It's hard being an adult. And I think   in the practice, you know, just circling back to our topic on our previous podcast, fun is really important. We forget to have fun as adults, you know? And gosh, you know, think of it like you're in the sandbox again. See through young eyes, see through young eyes. Put those lenses on and just remember what it is to just play in the sandbox.   with your friends, right? And have like that pureness of intention and that pureness of heart and spirit. I think it's just easier when you can kind of connect to that space to welcome others in. And they'll say, I love that you're here. Welcome to the team. How can I make your week and your integration easier? I think that's a gem right there. That's...   The Dental A Team (11:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Monica Gomez (12:23) super valuable for the person receiving and also for the person that's delivering.   The Dental A Team (12:28) I agree. I was thinking,   as you said, you said it's hard being an adult And I thought, yeah, I remember just being like, do you want to swing? Like, there's two, like, do you want to swing with me? Like, that's, we don't do that anymore. Yeah. It was easy. Now it's like, we go to, we're in the same Pilates class 10 times and I'm still like, do I talk to you? Do I not talk to you? And it's like, goodness gracious. So yeah, like just, do you want to swing? Like just, let's just have fun with it. I love that. ⁓   Monica Gomez (12:34) Yeah.   It's easier to fix ones.   The Dental A Team (12:53) And so Welcome Packet is beautiful. if you guys like put it together, it could even be like ⁓ a welcome note card. Like, hey, excited to have you. Like everybody, we write thank you cards to our patients or we write condolence cards or happy birthday or happy anniversary. Like, congrats on your wedding. We write these cards and I've seen them in multiple practices. So I know a lot of people do them. You pass them around to all the team members or the happy birthday for the team members, right? Everybody writes on the card and it's like this little message.   You could do it as simply as that. Like, hey, Monica's starting on Monday, guys. Like, it's Thursday. Let's wrap this up. Let's get this like welcome card together and a candy bar or a little ⁓ bouquet of flowers, like four carnations. Like, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be robust or like over the top. Just speak to who you are and who they are. I love that. And Monica, something you said was we were kind of prepping for this was you don't have to have it all together. And I loved that because we've saw many podcasts on   Monica Gomez (13:33) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (13:49) operations manual and it's fantastic. And I agree with an operations manual and practices come to us and they're like, Monica, we need an operations manual, help us build it. It's like, okay, yes. And it's super cool. Also, it's not a requirement. You can onboard, you can train, you can have them help you build the operations manual while you're training. Don't hold yourself back from onboarding someone successfully.   Monica Gomez (14:01) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:17) because you feel like things are missing and I love that you said that. Now, on that same aspect, a job description, super simple, to put together a job description of who they are, how they show up and what their targets are per position and then build off of that to say like, hey, in the first week, two weeks, 30 days and then kind of go from there. Now, implementally, how do you build the action out for...   for teams like that, because I'm an aggriance. I love an operations manual. I think it's great, but it's not end all be all. And just because we get through an operations manual and your consulting journey does not mean you're done. You're set for success and nothing's ever going to happen. I think there's a lot of, we could go on a tangent about operations manuals. We won't today. But how do you do that with your practices you're working with?   Monica Gomez (15:06) Yeah, I mean, I think people ⁓ absorb information and they learn differently. And I think it's really important that we hit on all three things. It's auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. The operations manual or the training manual is valuable, Because it's a resource that you can go to to reference and get a refresher. ⁓ But that shouldn't be your onboarding technique, right? That's like, OK, here you go. Here's the written. ⁓   The Dental A Team (15:31) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (15:35) proof or reference book of what you already learned, right? It is the outcome of your training. ⁓ I think, you know, onboarding can be simple and we make it complicated because everything has to be in writing nowadays and there's value to that. ⁓ But really your team, the biggest piece of ⁓ an employee staying within those 90 days is how we onboarded them.   The Dental A Team (15:49) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (16:04) Did we just give them manual or written instructions and say, okay, here it is, go do it? Or did we say, okay, this week, part of your onboarding is that you're gonna spend time with every single person in this practice in the various roles, including the doctor. You're gonna sit in and listen to the exams and the x-ray take and the hygienist. And you're really gonna understand all the makings of this practice.   it's important that we understand everyone's role and how we contribute to the entire team. So I always recommend that you hire someone and the first three days, break it up. Three, by the way, is a magical number for me. I love everything in series of threes. So three is easy to remember, three things versus five or even four, right? So three days in each role.   And have that person that's learning write down the most impact. What did you learn in these three days sitting with a hygienist? Or what do you want to know more about? This will spark their curiosity. Don't give them a script. Allow them to of grasp the topics and let their curiosity ⁓ be the lead. Take the lead on.   Here's what I want to know more about, or I don't really understand this, or gosh, I didn't know that, right? ⁓ And that goes for experienced employees or people that are new to the industry, right? That's my recommendation. Allow them to spend three days in every single role, like the journey of onboarding, right? Like, I think it's super valuable. And then... ⁓   The Dental A Team (17:33) Yeah.   Fisher.   Monica Gomez (17:53) Again, they could be kind of co-creating your manual with you because what they bring back, the knowledge that they bring back, chances are somebody else is going to have that same curiosity or those same questions, right? Yeah, I think that's a really simple tip. And those also that feedback could be part of your 30, 60, 90 day growth plans. And here's what you're really great at, right? I always like to look at   The Dental A Team (18:05) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (18:23) Think about the growth plan like a sandwich, right? Like there's the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so here's where you are, right? ⁓ Here's where, ⁓ actually, here's your role. Here's where you currently are, and here's where we would like for you to be. And like, what are the steps to get there, right? That should be part of your growth plan, your 30, 60, 90 day growth plan, along with the job description. Yeah, I think, you know,   using the job description like you mentioned as a tool, right, to guide people and also for us to understand like, what are they really great at? What are they really proud of, you know, in this job role? And what do they want to know more about? I think ⁓ I ⁓ one great way to kind of get familiar with someone's knowledge, experience and their desire to grow or learn more about is take the   The Dental A Team (19:04) Thank   Monica Gomez (19:21) the skills and ability portion of the job role and say, tell me three things that you're really great at, that you're really proud of, that you just are an expert in. And then three things that ⁓ you wanna know more about, not weak, right? Things that you don't, let's take that, negative verb out of it, just say three things that you're curious about or three things that you wanna sharpen your skills at. That tells you a lot about their qualifications. ⁓ And I'm really an advocate of ⁓   The Dental A Team (19:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yes.   Monica Gomez (19:51) eliminating the over-educating and over-matching. This exercise is a great way to kind of level set who your person is, like what's in their brain, right? Like, are you curious about? So I think that's part of like the co-creation of the onboarding and the collaboration, right? This is a partnership, we're in this together. What can I do to help you help me?   The Dental A Team (20:02) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (20:16) and stay. think it's intentional and it is ⁓ structured in a way that's unstructured.   The Dental A Team (20:29) Yeah, for sure. And I think that what you're saying there that co-creation also makes me think of ⁓ like collaborating and co-creating with the people who are going to be doing the training. So if you're not the one who's going to be, if you're an office manager and you're not training this person hands on 100 % of the time, then enlist the team members too. So if this person's job is   I don't know, front desk check-in and she or he has this laundry list of 20 different things that they've got to learn in the series of these 90 days or 30 days or however long you parcel that out for who's helping with those things and allow them to co-create too. And I think what you're saying, the three days, it's like, great, you're learning to answer the phones and confirm appointments. That's what you're doing for three days. You're answering the phone. So you're answering the phones and you're delivering that   patient to whomever, right? You're transferring that patient to whomever they need and you're doing confirmation calls for three days. And then stack on top of that, anything, something you said there, the co-collaborating and the kind of doing it together, but also then enlisting outside perspectives to see what flows together. Because a lot of times our job doesn't necessarily start to end flow in this perfect, beautiful space. Sometimes it's like,   well, I'm doing phones, but I'm doing emails, and I'm doing phones, but I'm checking patients out. And those are very like stark contrasting pieces. And so if we're like jumping them around or trying to do it in what a day might look like, that's very confusing. And it's overwhelming because your brain doesn't operate in that way. You can and you will and you will multitask and they will get it. But when you're learning, you've got to learn succinctly in a flow that makes sense. So you can't start with   Monica Gomez (22:03) and overwhelming.   The Dental A Team (22:18) checking a patient out if you also want them to be doing confirmation calls. Like you've got to find, like you said, your start, your middle and your end and making sure that those pieces flow together and having that outside perspective I think can definitely help. Something you mentioned was those like check-ins. So you're having those conversations with them. So that in itself right there, you guys, if you're not, I want you to pull these action items out too because that in itself, that's an action item. So make sure you've got job descriptions.   make sure you've got some semblance of flow on the pieces that they're responsible for, and then you're checking in with them. And I think frequent check-ins are really smart. We do them in our company with onboarding and we continue them kind of as long as we possibly can forevermore. We do these check-ins because I wanna know where they're at. don't, not necessarily like, did you do this thing? I wanna know like Monica, where are you at today? ⁓   Personally, who are you and where are you at today? Like are we still in alignment because that's the space I think Especially being new to a team. I'm not gonna say I'm not always gonna say hey, I Didn't get this or hey, I need help or hey I'm falling behind or I feel overwhelmed or this is a lot because I don't want to look like I can't do it But if my manager or my lead is like, hey check in how are things going? And I'm like, I think I'm getting it. I think I need more time on this   That's way better than being like, I'm overwhelmed. Like that feels better to me to be like, cool, there's space to have a conversation about this. I'm not complaining or feeling weak or looking as though I can't accomplish something. You are giving the space as a check-in to just be like, hey, tell me where you're at. Okay, great, take the space, take the time, go learn it. Or if I need to show you again, I can.   Monica Gomez (24:08) Yeah, I love that. I love everything that you said. think, ⁓ you know, words create our story, right? And so if we're asking, like, how's it going? ⁓ Are you struggling with anything? ⁓ Our minds automatically go to that negative place, right? So you get to be the creator of the script.   Right. And so if we're saying, Hey, by the way, I heard you answering the phone start, like, listen for the good stuff, right? The good behaviors. Gosh, you were amazing. Greeting that patient. my gosh. I am so proud of you. You are totally getting this and you know, how's everything else going? Right. If you start with that excitement and something positive, that person's already in that positive mindset and it's all about mindset. Right. And if we're concerned that they're not getting it, they're not going to get it.   assume that they are, assume that they are getting it. So gosh, you are, I know you're doing amazing. Tell me all the good stuff. Start.   The Dental A Team (25:10) Yeah, assume good intent, right? Always. We see that constantly. Assume   good intent. I think, Monica, you saying this right here makes me think.   Relationships are relationships, I say that all the time. They just look a little bit different. Like my relationship with Erin is a little bit different than my relationship with you, but my communication skills are gonna be super, they're gonna be the same with the right words, right? So I'm not gonna, communication is communication. And so what we do is we say, okay, this is how you sell a treatment plan. This is how you project to your patients to get them to schedule. And you always start with a positive. You don't ask for a review by saying,   how did everything go today? You say like, oh my gosh, that seemed, you how amazing was your appointment today? Like you're infusing these words in there to get the mindset, but then we don't copy and paste that always into everything that we do. And I think how you show up for anything is how you show up for everything. So show up for your team the same as you're expecting your team to show up for your patients because that's going to translate. And if you're like, oh, it seemed like a,   Gosh, today was a chaotic day, how did you do? It's always chaos, we're in dentistry. Dentistry is chaotic, your days are gonna be crazy. Life is chaotic, you're right, it's always going to be crazy. So saying that, gosh, was, woo, that was a rough day. How are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I'm feeling like I made a really bad decision coming here. I think you're spot on is my point there. So that was beautiful, thank you.   Monica Gomez (26:22) Yeah. And life is chaotic. Period, right? Life is chaotic.   Yeah. And, you know, I when employees share difficult, like a difficult day, you know, like, ⁓ I had a ⁓ client last week share that their new hire said, ⁓ gosh, maybe we shouldn't, you know, ⁓ schedule two crowns back to back because that was really hard. And, you know, my back was hurting. And so, ⁓ you know, the doctor was like, she's already complaining. I'm like, well, okay. Well, how did you respond? Right. Because   The Dental A Team (27:13) Yeah, yeah.   Monica Gomez (27:14) Because, I mean, she's delivering something that's important. She's sharing and she feels comfortable enough to say, hey, that was really hard. That's really what she's saying. That was really hard, right? And so, you know, again, one of my favorite sayings is, you know, get curious, not furious, right? Don't look at it with the negative lens. It's a great way for you to validate, like, how important it is to be seen, and valued, right?   The Dental A Team (27:43) I agree.   Monica Gomez (27:43) And she was opening up because she wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. Like she wanted to be seen. Gosh, I like did those two crowns back to back. My back is hurting me. Are you even valuing that I sat there in fact, right? Even though they could have swapped off with another assistant, but she, you know, she followed him. And so, you know, and my advice was like, you should number one acknowledge that she's sharing, right?   The Dental A Team (27:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (28:12) Thank you so much for sharing that. You're right, that was kind of hard. Let's talk about it as a team tomorrow. Let's find ways to alleviate that when this does happen, right? I mean, the patients wanted to start, like they're ready. Let's do it, right? But where were your other team members? Like, let's talk about this. And so seen, and valued. If you can make anyone new, ⁓ a new employee, an existing employee,   your legacy employees, if you can make them feel and create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, that's huge. That's like you, you will, your team will love you, your patients will love you because again, it's that invisible kind of energy that's flowing through your practice, right? That creates that great space for employees to wanna stay.   The Dental A Team (29:03) I agree. I totally agree. Thank you, Monica. I think this was ⁓ a really, this is just full of so many gems and ⁓ I love the actual pieces of job description, kind of the, I love your three days, spend three days on it and really just making sure you go through that job description. Look at the to-dos of that position.   Enlist the team to help you. Whoever's gonna be helping to train. I had people specific on my team that were like, these are the things you just, you're stellar at and it's gonna be easy for you to train these things. They trained those. So it doesn't have to be one person. It can be whatever you want it to look like. Just make sure it's built out. You have a plan. Preschedule check-ins. I always make sure we preschedule check-ins and you guys check in with yourself too. think Monica, you gave some really wonderful tips on really making sure that we're showing up the way that we should be.   or the way we want people to show up and really just gut checking and making sure that those things are there. And I loved this. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Thank you for flowing off of it. This was perfect. This was divine. Thank you for helping set up this flow of podcasting today and for just bringing your insight and your wisdom and your years of experience of things that you've seen work and ideas. So thank you, Monica.   Monica Gomez (30:17) Thanks, thanks, Tiff. This is definitely a gem for me. I have so much to share and so much, I love sharing, I love brainstorming, I love sharing what works ⁓ and all the knowledge that we, all of us have, right? This is a beautiful space for us to, you know, share that. And this was so fun. Thanks for inviting me and everyone.   The Dental A Team (30:24) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (30:44) Go out and be fabulous and don't forget to have fun. Have fun.   The Dental A Team (30:48) Yes, I love that.   Thank you. Yes. Go be fabulous. That is like Trish's famous words. I love that she says that. always, I know it always makes it just like, yep, I will. Okay. No, questions. So I love it. Go be fabulous. I agree. Drop us a five star review. Let us know what you thought about this. Let us know what onboarding tips you guys have. is an easy place to find us and.   Monica Gomez (30:55) So these are the things.   The Dental A Team (31:12) get recommendations or share your tips and tricks. We really do love that. And also we're on Instagram and Facebook, all of those places. So watch us there. Watch out for us there. Thursdays, once a third Thursday, we have webinars. You guys, we're everywhere. So if you're only following the podcast, check us out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, TheDentalATeam.com. We've got all of it listed there as well. Go find us, follow us and listen for more amazing tips from Monica and the rest of the consulting team. Thank you guys and go be fabulous.   Monica Gomez (31:40) you  

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Shireen Rizvi, PhD and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD, about their book Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. We discuss what Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is, how it can help both ourselves and our kids with big feelings, and get into some of the skills it teaches including distress tolerance, check the facts, and mindfulness.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:00 What is DBT?* 11:00 The importance of validation* 13:00 How do parents manage their own big feelings?* 16:00 How do you support a kid with big feelings, and where is the place for problem solving?* 23:00 Managing the urge to fix things for our kids!* 26:00 What is distress tolerance?* 28:50 “Check the facts” is a foundational skill* 34:00 Mindfulness is a foundation of DBT* 36:45 How the skills taught through DBT are universalResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships by Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein * Shireen Rizvi's website * Jesse Finkelstein's websites axiscbt and therahive Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREPodcast transcript:Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today we have two guests who co-authored a book called Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships.And you may be wondering why we're talking about that on a parenting podcast. This was a really great conversation with Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein, the co-authors of the book, about all of the skills of DBT, which is a modality of therapy. We talked about the skills they teach in DBT and how we can apply them to parenting.They talk about how emotional dysregulation is the cause of so much of the pain and suffering in our lives. And I think as a parent, you will recognize that either your own emotional dysregulation or your child's is often where a lot of issues and conflict come from.So what they've really provided in this book—and given us a window into in this conversation—is how we can apply some of those skills toward helping ourselves and helping our children with big feelings, a.k.a. emotional dysregulation. It was a really wonderful conversation, and their book is wonderful too. We'll put a link to it in the show notes and encourage you to check it out.There are things you can listen to in this podcast today and then walk away and use right away. One note: you'll notice that a lot of what they talk about really overlaps with the things we teach and practice inside of Peaceful Parenting.If this episode is helpful for you, please share it with a friend. Screenshot it and send it to someone who could use some more skill-building around big emotions—whether they're our own big emotions or our child's. Sharing with a friend or word of mouth is a wonderful way for us to reach more people and more families and help them learn about peaceful parenting.It is a slow process, but I really believe it is the way we change the world. Let's meet Shireen and Jesse.Hi, Jesse. Hi, Shireen. Welcome to the podcast.Jesse: Thank you so much for having us.Sarah: Yeah. I'm so excited about your book, which I understand is out now—Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. First of all, I love the format of your book. It's super easy to read and easy to use. I already thought about tearing out the pages with the flow charts, which are such great references—really helpful for anyone who has emotions. Basically anyone who has feelings.Jesse: Oh, yes.Sarah: Yeah. I thought they were great, and I think this is going to be a helpful conversation for parents. You've written from a DBT framework. Can you explain what DBT is and maybe how it's different from CBT? A lot of people have heard more about cognitive behavior therapy than dialectical behavior therapy.Shireen: Sure. I would first say that DBT—Dialectical Behavior Therapy—is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy. So they're in the same category. Sometimes we hear therapists say, “I do DBT, but I don't do CBT,” and from my perspective, that's not really possible, because the essence of dialectical behavior therapy is CBT. CBT focuses on how our thoughts, behaviors, and emotions all go together, and how changing any one of those affects the others.That's really the core of DBT—the foundation of CBT. But what happened was the person who developed DBT, Marsha Linehan—she was actually my grad school advisor at the University of Washington—developed this treatment because she was finding that standard CBT was not working as well as she wanted it to for a particular population. The group she was working with were women, primarily, who had significant problems with emotion regulation and were chronically suicidal or self-injuring.With that group, she found they needed a lot more validation—validation that things were really rough, that it was hard to change what was going on, that they needed support and comfort. But if she leaned too much on validation, patients got frustrated that there wasn't enough change happening.So what she added to standard CBT was first a focus on validation and acceptance, and then what she refers to as the dialectical piece: balancing between change and acceptance. The idea is: You're doing the best you can—and you need to do better.Jesse: Mm-hmm.Shireen: And even though DBT was developed for that very severe group that needed a lot of treatment, one of the aspects of DBT is skills training—teaching people skills to manage their emotions, regulate distress, engage interpersonally in a more effective way.Those skills became so popular that people started using them with everyone they were treating, not just people who engaged in chronic suicidal behavior.Sarah: Very cool. And I think the population you're referring to is people who might be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. I bring that up only because I work with parents, not kids, and parents report to me what their children are like. I've had many parents worry, “Do you think my child has borderline personality disorder?” because they've heard of it and associate it with extreme sensitivity and big feelings.A lot of that is just typical of someone who's 13 or 14, right? Or of a sensitive child—not diagnosable or something you'd necessarily find in the DSM. I've heard it so many times. I say, “No, I don't think your child has borderline personality disorder. I think they're just really sensitive and haven't learned how to manage their big feelings yet. And that's something you can help them with.”With that similar level of emotional intensity—in a preteen or early teen who's still developing the brain structures that make self-regulation possible—how can we use DBT skills? What are a couple of ideas you might recommend when you have a 13-year-old who feels like life is ruined because the jeans they wanted to wear are soaking wet in the wash? And I'm not making fun—at 13, belonging is tied to how you look, what jeans you're wearing, how your hair is. It feels very real.So how might we use the skills you write about for that kind of situation?Jesse: Well, Sarah, I actually think you just practiced one of the skills: validation. When someone feels like their day is ruined because of their jeans, often a parent will say, “Get over it. It's not a big deal.” And now, in addition to fear or anxiety, there's a layer of shame or resentment. So the emotion amplifies and becomes even harder to get out of.Validation is a skill we talk about where you recognize the kernel of truth—how this experience makes sense. “The jeans you're wearing are clearly important to you. This is about connection. I understand why you feel this way.” That simple act of communicating that someone's thoughts and feelings make sense can be very powerful.Alongside that—back to what Shireen was saying—there are two tracks. One is the skills you help your teen practice. The other is the skills you practice yourself to be effective. In that moment, your teen might be dysregulated. What is the parent's emotion? Their urge? What skills can they practice to be effective?Sarah: I love that you already went to the next question I was going to ask, which is: when that kid is screaming, “You don't understand, I can't go to school because of the jeans,” what can parents do for themselves using the skills you describe?Shireen: I often think of the oxygen-mask analogy: put on your own oxygen mask before helping others. That was certainly true for me when I had fussy infants—how do you manage that stress when you are already heightened?What do you need to do to regulate yourself so you can be effective in the moment? Sometimes that's literally taking a time-out—leaving the room for a minute. The kid comes after you about the jeans, and you say, “Hold on, I need a minute.” You sequester yourself in the bathroom. You do paced breathing—a DBT skill that helps regulate your nervous system. You do that for a minute, get centered, and then return to the situation.If you're not regulated and your child is dysregulated, you'll ping-pong off each other and it becomes messier and messier. But if you can regulate yourself and approach calmly, the whole interaction changes.Sarah: It's so interesting because people who've been listening to my podcast or know my work will think, “Oh yeah, these are the things Sarah talks about all the time.” Our first principle of peaceful parenting is parental self-regulation. It doesn't mean you never get upset, but you recognize it and have strategies to get back to calm.And I always say, if you forget everything else I teach about dealing with upset kids, just remember empathy—which is another way of saying validation. I tell parents: you don't have to agree to empathize. Especially with situations like the jeans.I love the crossover between the skills parents are practicing in my community and what you've written about. And again: those flow charts! I'm going to mark up my book with Post-its for all the exercises.One of the things you talk about in the book is problem solving. As parents, we can find ourselves in these intense situations. I'll give an example: a client's daughter, at 11 p.m., was spiraling about needing a particular pair of boots for her Halloween costume, and they wouldn't arrive in time. No matter what the mom said, the daughter spiraled.This is a two-part question: If you've validated and they're still really upset, how do you support a kid who is deep in those intense feelings? And when is the place for teaching problem solving—especially when there is a real logistical problem to solve?Jesse: I'm going to say the annoying therapist thing: it depends. If we think about how emotions impact our thinking on a scale from 0 to 10, it's very hard to engage in wise-minded problem solving when someone is at an 8, 9, or 10. At that point, the urge is to act on crisis behaviors—yell, fight, ruminate.So engaging your child in problem solving when they're at a 9 isn't effective.Often, I suggest parents model and coach distress-tolerance skills. Shireen mentioned paced breathing. Maybe distraction. Anything to lower the emotional volume.Once we're in the six-ish range? Now we can problem solve. DBT has a very prescribed step-by-step process.But it's really hard if someone is so dysregulated. That's often where parents and kids end up in conflict: parent wants to solve; kid is at a 9 and can't even see straight.Sarah: Right. So walk us through what that might look like using the boots example. Play the parent for a moment.Jesse: Of course. I'd potentially do a couple of things. I might say, “Okay, let's do a little ‘tipping the temperature' together.” I'd bring out two bowls of ice and say, “We'll bend over, hold our breath for 30 seconds…”Shireen: And put your face in the bowl of ice water. You left out that part.Jesse: Crucial part of the step.Sarah: You just look at the ice water?Jesse: No, you submerge your face. And something happens—it's magical. There's actually a profound physiological effect: lowering blood pressure, calming the sympathetic nervous system.I highlight for parents: do this with your child, not didactically. Make it collaborative.And then: validate, validate, validate. Validation is not approval. It's not saying the reaction is right. It's simply communicating that their distress makes sense. Validation is incredibly regulating.Then you check in: “Do you feel like we can access Wise Mind?” If yes: “Great. Let's bring out a problem-solving worksheet—maybe from Real Skills for Real Life or the DBT manual. Let's walk through it step by step.”Sarah: And if you have a kid screaming, “Get that ice water away from me, that has nothing to do with the boots!”—is there anything to add beyond taking a break?Shireen: I'd say this probably comes up a lot for you, Sarah. As parents—especially high-functioning, maybe perfectionistic types (I put myself in that category)—if my kid is upset, I feel so many urges to fix it right away. Sometimes that's helpful, but often it's not. They either don't want to be fixed, or they're too dysregulated, or fixing isn't actually their goal—they just want to tell you how upset they are.I have to practice acceptance: “My kid is upset right now. That's it.” I remind myself: kids being upset is part of life. It's important for them to learn they can be upset and the world doesn't fall apart.If they're willing to do skills alongside you, great. But there will be times where you say, “I accept that you're upset. I'm sorry you feel this way. It sounds terrible. Let's reconnect in an hour.” And wait for the storm to pass.Sarah: Wait for the storm to pass.Jesse: I'll say—I haven't been a therapist that long, and I've been having this conversation with my own parents. Yesterday I called my mom about something stressful, and she said, “Jesse, do you want validation or problem solving right now?”Shireen: Love it.Jesse: I thought, “You taught her well.” I was like: okay, therapy works. And even having that prompt—“What would you like right now? Problem solving? Validation? Do you want me to just sit with you?”—that's so useful.Sarah: Yeah. I have to remind myself of that with my daughter, especially when the solution seems obvious to me but she's too upset to take it in. Just sitting there is the hardest thing in the world.And you've both anticipated my next question. A big part of your book is distress tolerance—one of the four areas. Can you talk about what distress tolerance is specifically? And as you mentioned, Shireen, it is excruciating when your kid is in pain or upset.I learned from my friend Ned Johnson—his wonderful book The Self-Driven Child—that there's something called the “righting instinct.” When your child falls over, you have the instinct to right them—pick them up, dust them off, stand them up. That instinct kicks in whenever they're distressed. And I think it's important for them to learn skills so we don't do that every time.Give us some thoughts about that.Shireen: Well, again, I think distress tolerance is so important for parents and for kids. The way we define it in DBT is: distress tolerance is learning how to tolerate stressful, difficult, complicated situations without doing anything to make it worse. That's the critical part, because distress tolerance is not about solving problems. It's about getting through without making things worse.So in the context of an interaction with your kid, “not making it worse” might mean biting your tongue and not lashing out, not arguing, not rolling your eyes, or whatever it is. And then tolerating the stress of the moment.As parents, we absolutely need this probably a thousand times a day. “How do I tolerate the distress of this moment with my kid?” And then kids, as humans, need to learn distress tolerance too—how to tolerate a difficult situation without doing anything to make it worse.If we swoop in too quickly to solve the problem for them—as you said, if we move in too quickly to right them—they don't learn that they can get through it themselves. They don't learn that they can right themselves.And I think there's been a lot written about generations and how parenting has affected different generations. We want our kids to learn how to problem solve, but also how to manage stress and difficulty in effective ways.Sarah: I think you're probably referring to the “helicopter parents,” how people are always talking about helicopter parents who are trying to remove any obstacles or remove the distress, basically.I think the answer isn't that we just say, “Okay, well, you're distressed, deal with it,” but that we're there with them emotionally while they're learning. We're next to them, right? With that co-regulation piece, while they're learning that they can handle those big feelings.Shireen: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: I thought it might be fun, before we close out, to do a deep dive on maybe one or two of the skills you have in the book. I was thinking about maybe “Check the Facts.” It would be a cool one to do a deep dive on. You have so many awesome skills and I encourage anyone to pick up your book. “Check the Facts” is one of the emotion regulation skills.Do you mind going over when you would use Check the Facts, what it is, and how to use it?Jesse: Not at all. Check the Facts is, in many ways, a foundational skill, because it's so easy for us to get lost in our interpretation of a situation. So the classic example is: you're walking down the street and you wave to a friend, and they don't wave back. And I don't know about you, but it's easy for me to go to, “Oh, they must be mad at me.”Sarah: Right, yeah.Jesse: And all of a sudden, I'm spinning out, thinking about all the things I could have done to hurt their feelings, and yada yada yada. Then I'm feeling lots of upset, and I may have the urge to apologize, etc.What we're doing with Check the Facts is returning our attention back to the facts themselves—the things we can take in with our senses. We're observing and describing, which are two foundational mindfulness skills in DBT. And then from that, we ask ourselves: “Does the emotion I'm feeling—the intensity and duration of that emotion—fit the facts as I'm experiencing them?”So in many ways, this is one of those cognitive interventions. DBT rests on all these cognitive-behavioral principles; it's part of that broader umbrella. Here we're asking: “Do the facts as I see them align with my emotional experience?”From there, we ask: if yes, then there are certain options or skills we can practice—for instance, we can change the problem. If no, that begs the question: “Should I act opposite to this emotion urge that I have?”So it's a very grounding, centering type of skill. Shireen, is there anything I'm missing?Shireen: No. I would just give a parenting example that happens for me a lot. My kid has a test the next day. He says he knows everything. He doesn't open the book or want to review the study guide. And I start to think things like, “Oh my gosh, he has no grit. He's going to fail this test. He's not going to do well in high school. He's not going to get into a good college. But most importantly, he doesn't care. And what does that say about him? And what does it say about me as a parent?”I hope people listening can relate to these sorts of thoughts and I'm not alone.Sarah: A hundred percent. I've heard people say those exact things.Shireen: And even though I practice these skills all the time, I'm also human and a mother. So where Check the Facts can be useful there is first just recognizing: “Okay, what thoughts am I having in response to this behavior?” The facts of the situation are: my kid said he doesn't need to study anymore. And then look at all these thoughts that came into my mind.First, just recognizing: here was the event, and here's what my mind did. That, in and of itself, is a useful experience. You can say, “Wow, look at what I'm doing in my mind that's creating so much of a problem.”Then I can also think: “What does this make me feel when I have all these thoughts?” I feel fear. I feel sad. I feel shame about not being a good parent. And those all cause me to have more thoughts and urges to do things that aren't super effective—like trying to bully him into studying, all of these things.Then the skill can be: “Okay, are these thoughts exaggerated? Are they based in fact? Are they useful?” I can analyze each of these thoughts.I might think, “Well, he has a history of not studying and doing fine,” is one thing. Another thought: “Me trying to push him to study is not going to be effective or helpful.” Another: “There are natural consequences. If he doesn't do well because he didn't study, that's an important lesson for him to learn.”So I can start to change my interpretations based on the facts of the actual situation as opposed to my exaggerated interpretations. And then see: what does that do to my emotions? And when I have more realistic, fact-based thoughts, does that lead me to have a better response than I would if I followed through on all my exaggerated thinking?Does that make sense?Sarah: Yeah, totally makes sense. Are there any DBT skills that are helpful in helping you recognize when you need to use a skill—if that makes sense? Because sometimes I think parents might spiral, like in the example you're talking about, but they might not even realize they're spiraling. Sometimes parents will say, “I don't even know until it's too late that I've had this big moment of emotional dysregulation.”Jesse: I think there's a very strong reason why mindfulness is the foundation of DBT—for exactly the reason you've just described. For a lot of us, we end up engaging in behaviors that are ineffective, that are not in line with our values or goals, and it feels like it's just happening to us.So having a mindfulness practice—and I want to highlight that doesn't necessarily mean a formal meditation practice—but developing the skill of noticing, of being increasingly conscious of what you're feeling, your urges, your thoughts, your behaviors. So that when you notice that you are drifting, that you're engaging in an ineffective behavior, you can then apply a skill. We can't change what we're not aware of.Sarah: I love that. It's so hard with all the distractions we have and all of the things that are pulling us this way and that, and the busyness. So just slowing down and starting to notice more what we're feeling and thinking.Shireen: There's a skill that we teach that's in the category of mindfulness called Wise Mind. I don't have to get into all the particulars of that, but Wise Mind is when you're in a place where you feel wise and centered and perhaps a little bit calmer.So one question people can ask themselves is: “Am I in a place of Wise Mind right now?” And if not, that's the cue. Usually, when we answer that we're not, it's because we're in a state of Emotion Mind, where our emotions are in control of us.First, recognizing what state of mind you're in can be really helpful. You can use that as a cue: “I'm not in Wise Mind. I need to do something more skillful here to get there,” or, “I need to give myself some time before I act.”Sarah: I love that. So helpful. Before we wrap up, was there anything you wish I'd asked you that you think would be really helpful for parents and kids?Shireen: I just want to reiterate something you said earlier, which is: yes, this treatment was developed for folks with borderline personality disorder. That is often a diagnosis people run screaming from or are very nervous about. People might hesitate to think that these skills could be useful for them if they don't identify as having borderline personality disorder.But I think what you're highlighting, Sarah—and we so appreciate you having us on and talking about these skills—is that we consider these skills universal. Really anybody can benefit.I've done training and teaching in DBT for 25 years, and I teach clinicians in many different places how to do DBT treatment with patients. But inevitably, what happens is that the clinicians themselves say, “Oh, I really need these skills in my everyday life.”So that's what we want to highlight, and why we wrote this book: to take these skills from a treatment designed for a really severe population and break it down so anybody can see, “Oh, this would be useful for me in my everyday life, and I want to learn more.”Sarah: Totally. Yeah. I love it. And I think it's a continuum, right? From feeling like emotions are overwhelming and challenging, and being really emotionally sensitive. There are lots of people who are on that more emotionally sensitive side of things, and these are really helpful skills for them.Jesse: Yeah. And to add on that, I wouldn't want anyone—and I don't think any of us here are suggesting this—it's such a stigmatized diagnosis. I have yet to meet someone who's choosing suffering. Many of us are trying to find relief from a lot of pain, and we may do so through really ineffective means.So with BPD, in my mind, sometimes it's an unfortunate name for a diagnosis. Many folks may have the opinion that it means they're intrinsically broken, or there's something wrong with their personality. Really, it's a constellation of behaviors that there are treatments for.So I want anyone listening not to feel helpless or hopeless in having this diagnosis or experience.Shireen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Sarah: Thank you so much. The question I ask all my guests—I'll ask Shireen first and then Jesse—is: if you could go back in time, if you had a time machine, if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Shireen: Oof. I think about this a lot, actually, because I feel like I did suffer a lot when my kids were babies. They were super colicky. I didn't sleep at all. I was also trying to work. I was very stressed. I wish that at that time I could have taken in what other people were telling me, which is: “This will pass.” Right? “This too shall pass,” which is something we say to ourselves as DBT therapists a lot. Time changes. Change is inevitable. Everything changes.In those dark parenting moments, you get stuck in thoughts of, “This is never going to change. It's always going to be this way. I can't tolerate this.” Instead, shifting to recognize: “Change is going to happen whether I like it or not. Just hang in there.”Sarah: I love that. My mother-in-law told me when I had my first child: “When things are bad, don't worry, they'll get better. And also, when things are good, don't worry, they'll get worse.”Shireen: Yes, it's true. And we need both the ups and the downs so we can actually understand, “Oh, this is why I like this, and this is why I don't like this.” It's part of life.Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. And Jesse, if you do ever have children, what would you want to remember to tell yourself?Jesse: I think I would want to remember to tell myself—and I don't think I'm going to say anything really new here—that perfection is a myth. I think parents often feel like they need to be some kind of superhuman. But we all feel. And when we do feel, and when we feel strongly, the goal isn't to shame ourselves for having that experience. It's to simply understand it.That's what I would want to communicate to myself, and what I hope to communicate to the parents I work with.Sarah: Love that. Best place to go to find out more about you all and what you do? We'll put a link to your book in the show notes, but any other socials or websites you want to point people to?Shireen: My website is shireenrizvi.com, where you can find a number of resources, including a link to the book and a link to our YouTube channel, which has skills videos—animated skills videos that teach some of these skills in five minutes or less. So that's another resource for people.Sarah: Great. What about you, Jesse?Jesse: I have a website called axiscbt.com. I'm also a co-founder of a psychoeducation skills course called Farrah Hive, and we actually have a parenting course based on DBT skills—that's thefarrahhive.com. And on Instagram, @talk_is_good.Sarah: Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.Jesse: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Relationships are the key to B2B sales.  But implementing a process to dramatically enhance those relationships is another story. That's where entertaining comes in.  Many salespeople never consider it.  Yet, it can, and has, provided a competitive advantage if you do it right.  In my own experience, I can trace a $2 MM account directly to an entertaining event.  And the biggest, richest sale I ever had was set up by an entertaining event.  In this post, I explore the Why's and how's of entertaining.  Check out The Excellence & Influence Course for Sales Leaders

Burnout shows up quietly, and in this conversation, I think you will hear just how deeply it can shape a life. When I sat down with Kassandra Hamilton, she opened up about building a meaningful career in global and Indigenous health while struggling with exhaustion, anxiety, and the pressure to look like everything was fine. Her turning point came when she finally stopped long enough to ask what she truly needed. Kassandra talks about people pleasing, giving her power away, and the inside out process she now teaches to help others realign their lives. We walk through the RAIN method, the importance of boundaries, and the small daily choices that help you rebuild trust in yourself. My hope is that you walk away feeling grounded, encouraged, and ready to take one step toward a more aligned and Unstoppable life. Highlights: 01:12 – Learn how early purpose can quietly shape the path you follow. 02:51 – See how a wider view of global health reveals what truly drives burnout. 06:56 – Understand how systems and technology can add pressure when they overlook human needs. 12:50 – Learn how hidden emotions can surface when you slow down and pay attention. 17:37 – Explore how reclaiming your power shifts the way you respond to stress. 24:23 – Discover how emotional regulation tools help you move through difficult moments. 41:18 – Learn how small, steady changes rebuild energy and direction. 47:36 – Understand why real burnout recovery starts with alignment, not escape. About the Guest: Kassandra Hamilton is an alignment life coach, bestselling author in 3 categories, musician, healer, and facilitator.  She is dedicated to helping others find inner alignment and live from the inside out, rather than in a burnout state or in autopilot mode. After completing a degree in biology and international development, and then completing a Masters of Science, she wanted to pursue a career in medicine.  She has always wanted to be of service to others, and as a child she literally had dreams of holding her hands towards people and visualizing light being sent to them. only way it made sense in terms of a traditional career trajectory while she was in school was to pursue medicine.  After completing her Masters degree, she decided to work alongside doctors to see what their day to day was like and how they were creating a positive impact in their communities.  What she actually saw was a lot of burnout, paperwork, and dissatisfied lives of people that were once passionate about medicine. She was working for Doctors of BC in Vancouver, with a high end office and apartment, when she collapsed one day in her apartment from an overwhelming sense of anxiety, burnout and grief.  She had lost her dog, her boyfriend, and both her grandparents all within three months.  On top of that, she was in a career that looked good on paper, but wasn't actually fulfilling her purpose of being of service to others. She no longer wanted to pursue medicine and didn't know how she got to a dead end if she had followed all the “right” steps according to society's blueprint for success. She spent the next few years really learning about her inner world and what her purpose in life was. She became dedicated to her own healing and coping with anxiety and burnout.  For the next decade, she began working with First Nations across Canada. She witnessed and learned about the importance of looking at the whole person, from a spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical lens.  Everything seemed to be connected.  As someone with a science background, she had always been fascinated with the intricacies and magical elements of everything that comes together in one singular cell.  Our emotions are energy in motion, and if they don't move through, they get stuck.  We decide if we allow our emotions to flow or not.  Kassandra also realized how powerful our minds are.  With one thought, we create a story.  That story becomes our reality.  With all of these realizations, she came to understand that we are literally magicians of our own realities. Kassandra has learned and experienced, time and time again, that health and happiness stems from our internal world first and is a combination of our mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional realms.  Once we deal with our inner worlds and live in state of awareness over how we are operating in the world, we can project that version of ourselves out into the world to create positive change.  In a world that constantly pulls us outward - with notifications, expectations, distractions “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” is about bringing us back home to ourselves.  Through deeply personal storytelling, scientific insights, and soul-centres practiced, Kassandra invites readers to reconnect with their inner compass.  This is a guidebook for anyone longing to move from autopilot to alignment and discovering what it truly means to live with intention, purpose, and clarity. Because the answers aren't out there, they HAVE to start from within.  We weren't meant to just get through the day. It is exhausting trying to fix and control everything “OUT THERE.” And the thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, We were meant to thrive and share our gifts with the world.  This is how positive ripple effects are made.  This is Kassandra plans to leave the world a better place, and support others to do the same.   With the external chaos, political mess, climate change, and growing tensions worldwide, She decided it was time to start creating some positive changes. She now has started a coaching practice committed to sharing her work with others, and her book compliments her work, outlining a 4-phase approach to moving from anxiety, fear, burnout, to living in alignment and inner power.  After a very successful book tour showcasing her bestseller (in 3 categories) “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” – she is going on tour.  But this isn't just any book tour – it is centred around creating community connections.  She will be doing wellness workshops and talks in local libraries, bookstores, and wellness venues around burnout prevention, boundaries, resilience, and authentic leadership, leveraging my book as a tool for this. She is currently in the planning stages and open to support in making this happen. Kassandra is dedicated to sharing stories that inspire personal development and growth. She brings a unique perspective to storytelling, blending data-driven insights with narrative. With years of experience in health information management projects with First Nations communities in Canada, she has become fascinated with the power of sharing compelling stories through complex qualitative data.  Her book is titled “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” and is now available on Amazon and 50+ more platforms. Outside of writing, she loves traveling, dancing, hiking, paddleboarding, and putting on community events that promote inner healing and connection.  She also provides sound healing sessions, Ayurvedic Head Massage, and Bio-Energy Healing sessions at a local wellness establishment in her community.  She volunteers at Connective Society as a restorative justice mentor for youth who are struggling with a lack of leadership or role models in their life. Lastly, Kassandra is a singer/songwriter and a musician.  You can find her playing at local open mics, hosting backyard community jam sessions, or at gigs around Vancouver Island. She put out an EP under the artist name “Kazz” in 2018 called “Reflections” and has released 4 singles under this title since.  This year (2025), she started a new collaborative label with her partner who is a music producer, and they have released two songs under the artist name “Cyphyr & Myraky.” Her mission is this: So many people believe the answers are "out there" and feel helpless in the current state of the world environmentally, politically, economically etc. Instead of feeling helpless, paralyzed by fear, or living under the influence of external circumstance and chaos, we can create real change by first realigning from the inside out to reconnect with our inner power and creativity. Imagine a world where people took responsibility for their life, knew their purpose, and felt like they were living life in full alignment with this.  Imagine what our communities would look like then? Above all else, Kassandra wants to inspire others to create positive ripple effects out into the world.  Ways to connect with Kassandra**:** Instagram: @kassandra hamilton  Facebook: Coaching with Kassandra TikTok: coachingwithkassandra LinkedIn: Kassandra Hamilton Website: www.kassandrahamilton.com Linktree with all my info: https://linktr.ee/kassandra.hamilton Spotify: Under name "Kazz": https://open.spotify.com/artist/0gpUecr9VkVJMmVIyp1NFt?si=byM7VdL9QDeezl5-666XKQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=9a801d5edc774e1d Under name "Cyphyr & Myraky" - new collaborative label https://open.spotify.com/artist/3xUxZGxTseXQB2G9PVolMn?si=In3BLhX3SMK_c-3ukTlCfQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=d369f571e6384062 Amazon Link to Book: https://a.co/d/2yWISSu Book Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDKW9ZNrsvA Rogers TV Community News Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0eOnQ2DAdg Nanaimo News Bulletin Story: https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/local-news/nanaimo-health-and-life-coachs-new-book-guides-inner-alignment-8182386 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Our guest today is Kassandra Hamilton, from up in British Columbia, way, and she has, I think, a lot to talk about. She's a coach. She talks about burnout and but also about her many talents. She sings, she's a musician, and on top of everything else, she's an author, and she just wrote a book that has just come out. So we've got lots to talk about, or she has lots to talk about, and we'll talk about it with her. So, Kassandra, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Kassandra Hamilton  02:08 Thanks for having me, Michael. I'm really grateful to be here today. Michael Hingson  02:12 Well, I'm excited. There's obviously a lot to talk about, I think so. Tell us a little bit about the early Cassandra growing up, and all the usual things. You know, you got to start at the beginning somewhere, Kassandra Hamilton  02:22 absolutely, yeah, so as a kid, I mean, I've always been curious. My mom used to get very puzzled by me as a child, because I would always ask, like, who is God and how is the world made? And I just had all these questions. And it just never really stopped. When I was six, I had a vision of helping people and healing them with my hands, and I just saw this light between my hands and other people, and it was this recurring dream I kept having, and I didn't understand it in the practical sense. So I pursued a very traditional, you know, career in medicine, because that's what made sense to me, and the social conditions that we had in front of us, and that didn't really pan out for me. I just it wasn't resonating. I felt like the system was very rigid. And I just have always been fascinated with more of a holistic picture of someone you know, like their physical, emotional, spiritual selves, and so the just focusing on the physical alone just wasn't cutting it for me. I knew there was so much more, and I was so curious about all of that. So yeah, I've gone through different sort of journeys on my path, and come back to a place of really wanting to be of service and share some of the tools and strategies that I've learned along the way. Michael Hingson  03:47 Well, you started down the road of going into medicine, didn't you? Mm, hmm. And what was your master's in? Because I know you had your your master's degree, and then you started working with doctors. What did you get your master's degree in? Kassandra Hamilton  04:02 Yeah, so I completed a master's of science because it was in the stream of global health. And so I was really fascinated by the multifaceted aspect of that. And not just looking at physical impact in the world. We looked at, you know, political and economic, geographic indicators of health really gave me that sort of overall vision of what health looks like from from that bird's eye view. And then I wanted to pursue medicine after that, because, again, I wanted to be of service to others, but I ended up working with doctors to see if that's actually what I wanted to do, and I just saw the amount of burnout that doctors were experiencing and how 80% of their workload was paperwork. Michael Hingson  04:56 And so what did. You do. Kassandra Hamilton  05:02 So I left that work. I was there for two years, and it just I wasn't buying it. So I left. I started my own company as a consultant, and realized that a lot of the issues I was seeing abroad, I actually we had a lot of gaps here in Canada, especially with our indigenous communities, the disparities there were just huge, and so I focused my energy for the last decade on working with indigenous communities and unlearning a lot of sort of colonial ways of doing things and really integrating the holistic health model that is presented from from that culture that I was working with, and it's really, really been transformative and instrumental in the way that I approach health now, Michael Hingson  05:51 well, I'm curious about something sort of off the wall. I appreciate what you're saying about paperwork, and I'm sure there are all sorts of legalistic reasons why there has to be so much paperwork and so on in the medical world, especially when everybody's so concerned about things like malpractice and all that. But do you think any of that has gotten any better? Or how has it changed as we are progressing more to a paperless or different kind of charting system where everything is done from a computer terminal. I'm spoiled. My doctors are with Kaiser Permanente, and everything is all done on wireless, or at least on non paper chart. Types of things that they're just typing into the computer, actually, as as we're communicating and we're talking and I'm in visiting and so on, but everything is all done online. What do you think about that? Does that help any Kassandra Hamilton  06:53 so very great question. So when we're talking about accessibility, I'm going to say no, not for indigenous communities, at least here in Canada, I'll speak from my experience, but things have gone digital, and actually what I was doing was working as a digital health consultant to bridge health gaps in digital systems. Because what was happening and what still happens is there's systems that are quite siloed, and so a lot of health centers that are remote will be using paper still, or they'll be using system for that and another system for this. And so there's no wrap around, diligence around the client. And so there is this huge accessibility issue, which is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. Michael Hingson  07:41 Well, do you think that as well? Hopefully you'll see more paperless kinds of things go into play. But do you think in areas where the paper quantity has decreased, in the online or digital chart systems have come into play. Does that help burn out at all? Do you think again? Kassandra Hamilton  08:08 You know what? It really depends. Like you're you're only as good as your as your system allows, and so if you haven't allowed for inclusivity, and for example, a lot of the work that was funded in the first couple years that I was doing, there was no due diligence to figure out whether or not these remote areas even had internet. So without internet, they were pumping money into all of these systems that were super high tech, not culturally appropriate. A lot of elders don't even own a computer, let alone a smartphone or anything like that, or have service. So it was there was a huge disconnect there, and so part of the work I've been doing is a lot of advocacy and helping government agencies understand the connecting pieces that are are instrumental in the success of digital health implementation. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  09:09 you know here, I know a fair amount about the whole digital chart system, because my sister in law was a critical care unit nurse at Kaiser, and then she managed several wards, and then she was tasked to be the head nurse for on the profit side, to help bring digital charts into Kaiser and and so I heard a lot about it from her and especially all the doctors who opposed it, just because they didn't want any change. They wanted to just do things the way that they had always done them. Yeah. And so the result is that they kind of got dragged kicking and screaming into it a little bit. But now I hear people mostly praising the whole system because it makes their job a lot easier. On the other hand, the other thing that happens, though, is they the system crams more patients into a doctor's appointment schedule every day, and so I'm not sure they're always seeing as much of patients as they should of any given patient, but I guess they have more doctors that specialize in different things. So no matter what happens, the doctors can all see whatever there is to see, because everything is in the chart, right? Kassandra Hamilton  10:41 And so Absolutely, in theory, and in urban areas where that works, you know, the digital systems are set up properly, absolutely. But in terms of going back to your question about burnout, if there's one nurse for one community, and she's a chart in five different, you know, systems that it's actually going to add to her burnout at the end of the day. Yeah? Michael Hingson  11:04 Well, yeah, and I appreciate that. I mean, so clearly, there's still quite a disparity, but it does, it does sound like in areas where they're able to truly bring digital charts and capturing information digitally into the system where, where that does exist, it can make people's lives, doctors, lives and so on, a little bit easier, and maybe contribute a little bit less to burnout. Kassandra Hamilton  11:34 Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that's the hope, and that's you know, why we continue to do the work to bring it into this, especially with AI too, like bringing more efficiency into the workplace, and it's all part of it. So yes, absolutely there's, there's definitely some, some hope, and some, you know, leaner, leaner ways of doing things for a lot of people. So yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  12:01 I'll hope it will continue to get better, and that the influence will expand so that the more rural areas and so on will be able to get the kinds of things that the more urban areas have. Now I live in an area that's fairly urban, but we don't have a Kaiser hospital up here. We have clinics, but we don't have a hospital. And apparently there's now, finally some movement toward making that happen. But it's interesting, where we used to live, in Northern California. We lived in a very what was, although we weren't, but was a rich County, and there were 200,000 people or so in the county, and there was a Kaiser hospital in the county. There was a Kaiser hospital about 30 miles away in San Francisco, and there were Kaiser hospitals going north, 1520, miles further north, in Petaluma. So there are a lot of hospitals, but we are in an area where there are over 400,000 people now, and there isn't a Kaiser hospital here, and that just has always seemed kind of strange to me. And the response is, well, the doctors don't want to move up here. I mean, there are all sorts of different reasons that are given, but it just seems strange. So if you really need to go to the hospital, they do have contracts that sort of work sometimes, or you have to go about 50 miles to get to the nearest actual Kaiser hospital, right? So it's strange. Kassandra Hamilton  13:38 It is strange. And there's a lot of things. Who knows who made the last call on decision? Right? So, right, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:48 Well, again, so the rumor goes they're going to be building a hospital here, and I think that will be a good thing. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But you experienced burnout, Kassandra Hamilton  14:00 didn't you? I did? Yes, I tell us about that, if you would. Yeah, absolutely so when I was 27 and I went, that was Michael Hingson  14:13 last year, right? Kassandra Hamilton  14:14 Yes, thank you. It was 10 years ago, but on the outside, I was thriving. Michael, I was like, working for doctors of BC, I had an apartment on the ninth floor. I had an ocean view. I had the apartment downtown. I was, you know, dating. I was like, doing all these things. I was achieving, pushing and showing up. And inside I was running on empty, and I was very disconnected from my purpose, from myself, and that breakdown became eventually a breakthrough, but in the process, you know, I lost all my grandparents and my dog, and I didn't have tools for dealing with my anxiety. Yeah, and social media sort of just amplified that sort of comparative feeling, and I just started to slow down and like really realign, and I realized how many people were living on autopilot and surviving instead of thriving. And that's really when I wanted to become committed to helping others reclaim their purpose and their authenticity, and not just bounce back from burnout, but like rise into something greater, and like reconnect with themselves and their why of their purpose of being here. You know, Michael Hingson  15:33 yeah, because you you thought you were thriving, but you really weren't. Yeah, exactly which is, which is unfortunate, but still, those kinds of things happen. So what did you So, how did you go from experiencing burnout to moving forward and realigning? What? What did you learn? How did you discover it and what actually happened. Kassandra Hamilton  16:01 So I, you know, I, for a long time, went through my own inward journey. And I, you know, I went to counseling, I sought other ways of healing, through energy work, I tried all the different tools and modalities, and I realized over time, it meant flipping the script, and most of us live from the outside in, and we're chasing expectations and people pleasing, letting circumstances dictate our worth, and living from the inside out to me meant connecting with who I was and my values and and the truth of finding my like finding my purpose, and letting that be the driver, and that means having boundaries. It means speaking up when you're when you're scared or you have fear. I know you've done a lot of work with fear and how to leverage that for a more positive outcome, rather than letting it stop you. So in my life, that shift has really helped me stop outsourcing my power and allowed me to show up authentically in my work and my relationships and creativity, and that's where my freedom and vitality really lives, and I really want to share that with others. Michael Hingson  17:12 That's interesting. Way that you put it, you're outsourcing your power. What do you mean by that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:18 I was giving my power away. I was waiting for someone else to approve of something that I did. I was showcasing my, you know, achievements, and that was how I attached value to my identity and who I was. Michael Hingson  17:34 And of course, what that really meant is that you, as you said, it was all about people pleasing and so on. And how did you change all that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:43 It wasn't overnight, I'll bet it wasn't, yeah, and so I changed all that by getting curious and by going inside. And I have a four step process that I share in this book that I've now written. And the first step is to observe yourself, like, how are you showing up? What kind of patterns are coming up for you? And then starting to understand, like, why, where did those come from? And then starting to re tune that part of yourself, like, Okay, so that's how I'm showing up. How do I want to show up? And how can I change my patterns, and how I react to things, to do that, and that's how you start to, sort of like flip the narrative and limp from the inside out. Michael Hingson  18:26 How do people do that? Because we're, because we're, I think we're really trained to behave that way. We're we're trained to as, as you would put it, all too often, give your power away or outsource your power. And how do we change that mentality? Kassandra Hamilton  18:48 Yeah, well, we have to first observe ourselves. We have to look at, you know, how are boundaries being used in your life? Or are they even there? Are you showing up for yourself as much as you're showing up for other people? Are you being authentic in what really is, in alignment with your own values? Are you living on purpose? So these things are what we look at, and then I have tools and frameworks and questions to help people really start to observe themselves from an outside perspective and ask themselves, Is this really how I want to be living right now? Is this allowing me to live the life that I want? Michael Hingson  19:34 Yeah, and is it, is it helping me grow Exactly? And that's that's a lot of the issue that that we face. I know, in my my book live like a guide dog that wrote was published last year. We we talk a lot about the fact that people need to learn, or hopefully will learn, how to be much more introspective and. And analyze what they do every day, and really put that analysis to work, to to learn. What am I afraid of? What is going on? Why am I worried about this? Because I don't have any control over it and and people just don't grow up feeling that way, because we don't really teach people how to learn to control fear and how to be introspective, which is part of the problem, of course, right? Kassandra Hamilton  20:27 Or even how to manage our emotions, right? Like emotion is energy in motion, and if we do not allow it to move through us, it gets stuck, and it shows up in our bodies as a physical ailment, yeah. And that's the mind, body, spirit connection. That's why physical, mental, emotional health is so important to look at as as a whole, not just in silo. Michael Hingson  20:51 So how do you how do you teach people to take a different view than what we typically learned how to do well? Kassandra Hamilton  21:01 So once we've observed what people what people are, how they're operating, we then start to understand where it comes from. So a lot of people are programmed either by society or early childhood experiences, and then they are just operating on autopilot from those patterns. But they don't know that. So once you start like, awareness is everything, and once you see something, you can't unsee it. So at that point, it's like, okay, how can we move from this place to where you want to be? And so I have a lot of tools for understanding and processing your emotions in real time. I have tools for understanding and managing nervous like your nervous system, I look at it from a science and health background as well as a spiritual background. So it's like blending the tool to and understanding that healing isn't just physical and mindfulness and slowing down and journaling and just taking the time to actually try and understand yourself. Michael Hingson  22:03 So how has all of this changed how you live your life? Kassandra Hamilton  22:08 Well, I since I started operating in a different way, I bought a house. I bought another house, about another house, I, you know, wrote a book. I changed careers. I am coaching people now I'm just like really living in my element, in my my full purpose, which is have this written on my wall that I want to help others rediscover their magic, so we can all fly together. So it's really about spreading positive ripple effects in the world, you know, but starting at home and in our communities. And I believe that that inside out ripple effect is so much more powerful than anything we can do out there, Michael Hingson  22:56 just so that we get it out there. What's the title of the book? Kassandra Hamilton  22:59 It's called the magic of realigning from the inside out. Michael Hingson  23:04 Since we, we talked about it, I figured we better get the title out there. Yeah, thank you. And there is a picture of the book cover and so on in the show notes. But I just wanted to make sure that you, you did tell people the title. Well, tell me, is there an incident or a moment where you realize that your work could really create change in someone's life? Kassandra Hamilton  23:32 Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. I've been asked that a few times, and the answer is that I just have a very strong morning practice where I journal. And throughout that journaling the last few years, I realized my process of integrating all of these tools and what it's done for me, and it just became like again, me observing myself through the pages and recognizing that I you know, it was my responsibility to share this, this work that I had done with other people, and not from a place of of ego, but really from that place of wanting to share stories and experiences in hopes that it will inspire others to, you know, take the time to Get curious and courageous about their own lives. Michael Hingson  24:22 Did you have any kind of an aha moment or a moment with anyone besides yourself that really caused you to realize, Oh, I'm really making a difference here. I'm really able to do this, and it makes a lot of sense to do what I'm doing. Kassandra Hamilton  24:38 Well, it's so funny, because informally, all of my friends will come to me for, you know, advice or coaching or reframing or whatever, and then eventually I was like, Man, I should get paid. And Michael Hingson  24:53 they're not your friends anymore, because now you're charging them, right? Kassandra Hamilton  24:58 So it's something that I've. Always really wanted to do, and I've always been fascinated by people and how their brains work, and what their resistance to change is, including my own. And yeah, I guess I just sort of had this moment a few years ago when I was like, I want to really focus my time on and energy to help other people have these moments of insight, or aha moments, or realizing they can pivot and actually start creating what they want in their lives. Michael Hingson  25:29 So what kind of tools do you use in your coaching process to help people do that? Kassandra Hamilton  25:34 Yeah, I lean on a lot of work from Gabor Mate and Deepak Chopra. I use tools that I've learned through Tara Brock. So my favorite tool, actually, that I, that I use, and I, I encourage people to try, is rain. And so if I could leave one sort of tool for people here today, it would be rain. And rain stands for recognize, acknowledge or accept, investigate, and then nourish. And so anytime people are in an activated emotional state or a negative emotion, they can sit away from their current situations, whether it's you go to the bathroom, or you sit alone for a few moments and you just recognize, okay, what is it that I'm feeling anxiety? Alright, we've named it. I recognize it. I'm accepting and acknowledging that I feel anxious. And then I is investigating, why do I feel anxious? What is the reason I feel anxious? And once you have figured out why, you can start to comfort yourself from a place of compassion, like it's okay to feel this way, you know Michael, like emotions are just children that want to be seen and heard, and the more you shove them down, the more chaos ensues. So when you comfort those emotions and you understand them, they move through you, naturally, emotion energy in motion. That's how we can assist ourselves in getting better at letting the emotions move through us. Michael Hingson  27:08 Yeah, and something that comes to mind along that that same line is the whole issue that you've already talked about, some which is talking about what what you feel, whoever you are, and be willing to express emotions, be willing to be honest with yourself and with other people. And again, I just think that we so often are taught not to do that. It's so unfortunate. Kassandra Hamilton  27:36 Absolutely, absolutely, we're not taught about anything. And I have a long list for the education curriculum, let me tell you, yeah, boundaries, you know, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, yeah, reframing, Like there's just so many things, so many things. Michael Hingson  28:03 So you've, you've helped a lot of people, primarily, who do you do you coach? Who are your your typical clients? Or does it matter? Kassandra Hamilton  28:14 So I typically coach people between ages 25 to 40, but I actually recently had a senior reach out to me after she found an article in the paper, and so I'm not excluding people from who I work with, but generally speaking, that's sort of the age range is 25 to 45 people who maybe have reached a, you know, the career they thought they were always going to do and get there, and they're like, this, isn't it? This isn't it for me, I'm burnt out. I'm tired. It's not what I thought it was going to be. Or maybe they're in a relationship and they're stuck and feeling burnt out from that. So yeah, that's the age group that I work in. Because regardless of what issue you're working on, career, relationship, sense of self, these tools will help you pivot to really realign with your purpose. Michael Hingson  29:03 So how do you help people go from being stuck to realigning and empowered Kassandra Hamilton  29:10 through my four step process? So I don't want to give too much away, but people will just need to read the book to find out. Michael Hingson  29:19 Well, if you can describe maybe a little bit in general, just enough to Yeah. Kassandra Hamilton  29:24 So just like I was saying before, like first getting really clear on how people are operating, so that's the observed part, and then starting to understand themselves through the different patterns that are coming up on a weekly, daily basis. So it's a lot of investigating and getting data in the first couple weeks, and then after that, we start to understand how to rewire things through different tools that I introduce, and we do it in small, manageable steps. My coaching programs are either six weeks or two. 12 weeks long. And throughout that process, we try things, and everyone's different. So some tools stick, you know, more than others, and that's okay. I just have a the approach that I've moved them through, and by the end, people are having amazing experiences and feeling like it's life changing. And I have, you know, a lot of people reaching out with testimonials that I just, you know, really helped fuel me to continue this work. Michael Hingson  30:26 Have you done this at all with children? I Kassandra Hamilton  30:30 haven't, but it's so interesting that you asked that because I really love working with youth. I work in a restorative justice volunteer program here in my community, and it's all about providing mentorship and being a role model for for youth that have maybe lost their way. And that's definitely an area I'm curious about. It's funny that you mentioned that. Michael Hingson  30:55 Well, it just, you know, the the reality is that the earlier we can get people to think about this and change and go more toward the kind of processes that you promote, the better it would be. But I also realize that that's a it's a little bit different process with with youth, I'm sure, than it is with older, older people, adults and so on. But I was just curious if you had done any, or if you have any plans to maybe open any kind of programs more for youth to help them the same way, because clearly there are a lot of stuck youth out there. Kassandra Hamilton  31:37 Yeah, very much so. And to be honest, like with the amount of technology and information overload and state of the world, like the amount of overwhelm and anxiety among youth right now is just through the charts, yeah, yeah. So definitely something that's been on my mind, and I I'm very curious as to what sparked you to ask that, because it's definitely something I've been exploring so Michael Hingson  32:02 well, it just popped into my head that that's an interesting thing to think about. And I would also think that the earlier we can and in this case, you can, reach children, the more open they probably are to listening to suggestions if you can establish a rapport with them. The reality is that that at a younger age, they're not as locked in to ways of doing things as they might be later on, my wife was my late wife was a teacher for 10 years, then she loved teaching second and third graders, and she said even by the time you're getting to fourth graders, they're starting to be a little bit more rigid in their mindsets. And so the result was that it was harder sometimes to reach them. And I think that's true, and I and I know that everything I've ever read or heard younger the child, the more open they are, and the more they're able to learn. Like younger children are better able to learn more than one language and so on. And the earlier you can get to children, probably the better it would be all the way around. Kassandra Hamilton  33:19 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely, an avian Avenue. I've been curious and exploring myself. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  33:28 I wonder, I wonder what the techniques would be, because I'm sure that the techniques are going to be a little bit different than than what you face with older people, Kassandra Hamilton  33:37 not necessarily like I think at any age, it's good to learn about boundaries and why they're important and understanding what we think they are versus what they actually are. And same with, you know, seeking validation outside of ourselves. Like I don't think, I don't think it's quite I think it might be a little bit more stuck when we're older, but I don't think it's very different. Yeah, I guess it just depends. Just depends. Michael Hingson  34:07 Well, you talk a lot about boundaries, authenticity, authenticity and purpose. How does all that really go into your whole coaching program? Kassandra Hamilton  34:22 Sorry? In what sense, like, can you ask that it may be a different a different way? Michael Hingson  34:29 Well, um, you talk, you've you've mentioned boundaries a number of times, and authenticity and so on. So I'm just curious, how do they fit into what you do and what you want people to do okay? Kassandra Hamilton  34:41 So people will come to me and they're, you know, feeling burnt out. They're constantly on. They're juggling family relationships, digital overload. They don't have space to breathe, let alone, you know, connect with themselves. And underneath that, there's often a lot of people pleasing or fear. Not being enough or living by other people's expectations, and so so many of them are feeling exhausted, unfulfilled, lack of worth when they come to me and they're just like, I don't know what else to do. And often, a misconception about burnout is that you need to work harder for things to get better, or you just need a small break to reset, and then you're fine. But if we don't change anything in that, in the mind, in the mindset, then people are just going to go back to the way, the way they were. Michael Hingson  35:33 How would you really define burnout? Kassandra Hamilton  35:38 I would define burnout as people feeling helpless, feeling like they're living on autopilot, exhaustion, feeling like there's just so much to manage and they don't have the time or the energy again, feeling like they can't or don't know about boundaries, and yeah, they're unfulfilled. They're not feeling like themselves. And so what I would suggest for anyone who's feeling that way is one of the things you can do is just just pause, create a moment of space for yourself, even if it's just five minutes a day, ask yourself what you really need, and it sounds simple, but most of us are so disconnected or needs that we don't even ask the question. But that pauses our power. It can be the doorway to listening to yourself again, and from there, you can start making choices that really align with what you actually want? Michael Hingson  36:43 One of the things that I suggest, and we do it in live like a guide dog, and I suggest it to people whenever we get in these discussions, is, no matter what you say about not having time, you absolutely have time, especially worst case at the end of the day, when you're starting to fall asleep, take the time to analyze yourself, take the time to become more introspective, because you have that time because you're in bed for heaven's sake. So you're really not supposed to be doing anything else, or shouldn't, but it's a great time to start to think about yourself, and I think that's a great time to deal with all the things that you're talking about here as well. Kassandra Hamilton  37:20 Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. And people have time for what they prioritize. That's that's the truth. And whether that's something people want to accept, it's absolutely the truth. You will make time for the things that are important to you. Michael Hingson  37:35 Yeah, well, and that's what it really comes down to does, isn't it that you're always going to make time for the things that you find are important to you, and the reality is that you'll be able to progress when you discover that some of the things that are important to you are the kinds of things that we're talking about here that will avoid burnout or get you away From that absolutely we just have to really neck us back to boundaries and authenticity and purpose. It just gets back to knowing what you really need, and ultimately, no one can know that better than you about yourself. Kassandra Hamilton  38:16 Absolutely, we have to reconnect to what matters and build the life that gives energy instead of only draining it. Michael Hingson  38:23 Yeah, and we can, we can do that, but we do need to take the time to make that happen, and that's why I really suggest do it at the end of the day. It's quiet and or you can make it quiet, and you can really learn by doing that you don't have to watch TV until an hour after you've fallen asleep, and then you wake up and discover the TV's on. You can take the time to become a little bit more introspective and learn more about yourself that way. And that's exactly what will happen if you really think about it Kassandra Hamilton  38:55 100% and you know, at my book launch, people were asking, like, how did you write a book, and it was like, it's not it's not hard in the sense that it's hard, it's hard because you have to show up every day. But that consistency, whether it's five minutes or an hour, like the consistency is everything. So showing up for yourself in small ways or whatever feels manageable at first, will naturally give you more energy to wake up early and give yourself more time. You know, it's just happens that way. Michael Hingson  39:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree. What's your favorite tool that you use with clients? Kassandra Hamilton  39:31 So it would be the one I shared with you earlier rain. It has been very instrumental for people in transforming how long it takes them to go from from a place of fear or anxiety or resentment to just processing it and being neutral. And it's amazing. Michael Hingson  39:53 And again, just to reiterate, it rain stands for, Kassandra Hamilton  39:57 recognize, accept or acknowledge. Manage, investigate and nourish, Michael Hingson  40:05 that's cheating. You get both both spellings of rain in there. That's that works, but it makes perfect sense and and I'm assuming that you've felt you've had pretty good success with people. Have you had anyone that just resists, even though they come to you and they say, Oh, I'm burned out and all that, but you start to work with them and they just resist? Or do you find that you're able to usually break through? Kassandra Hamilton  40:35 So it's funny, because a lot of people that come to me are very resistant to it, because of the nature of burnout, where people feel like don't have the time or the energy right at the beginning, a lot of people are very resistant, and they say so in their testimonials. No, at first I felt resistant, but then I didn't know that these things were actually going to give me exactly what I what I needed. So I've worked with a couple nurses. I worked with a woman who was managing, like, working four jobs, and she was super burnt out. But eventually, probably by like two or three weeks in, people are starting to feel the differences, and they're, they're all in. So yeah, it does take a bit to get them there, but once they're there, they're they're flying so, Michael Hingson  41:22 yeah, oh, that's that is so really cool, because you're able to break through and get people to do exactly what we've been talking about, which is so important to do, Kassandra Hamilton  41:34 yeah, yeah. And you know the moments for me that just feel like, Oh, this is the work I meant to do, is seeing someone go from that place of burnout or defeat because they're working a job they don't enjoy to starting their own business that's leveraging their creativity and their passion, or they've repaired a relationship, or they're finally feeling confident in themselves like there's No better gift to me than to see that change in somebody. Michael Hingson  42:06 What are some of the most common struggles that you see in people? I know we've probably talked a lot about it, but you know, it's good to summarize. But what are some of the kind of the most common struggles that you find in people? And why do you think that people are experiencing so much burnout? And I'm assuming that those two are related, Kassandra Hamilton  42:27 yeah, yeah. So, okay, so if we were talking about career, people that are managing a career that is very demanding, and that is all they do, and they have no energy for time like for things outside of work. What they say is that they're feeling numb, or they're living on autopilot, or they don't recognize themselves anymore. Another shared that she was really scared of leaving because of a financial aspect. And so I think at that point, you just start to flip the narrative and ask, well, what are you sacrificing by staying right? So like, maybe we need to get a part time job while we're exploring our creativity and building a new business for ourselves, but it's 100% possible, and these programs are not meant to make these drastic changes overnight. They're small, incremental, consistent changes that over time bring you to a place of alignment with what you actually want to create in life. Do you Michael Hingson  43:34 find that there are some people who feel I can't stay here, I've got to leave or this boss isn't good, or whatever, when, in reality, it's it's something different, and that a mindset shift makes them discover that they really are in a good well, they're in a good position, or they have a good career, or whatever, but their perspective has just been off. Kassandra Hamilton  43:56 Yeah, absolutely. So someone said something to me the other day that it stuck with me at the time, but it was something like, If you can't, if you can't get out of it, you better get into it. Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, yeah, sometimes it's just with how you're showing up for yourself and for the people around you. And that's the shift that needs to happen. So it's not necessarily about leaving a job. Thank you for bringing that up. It is about changing your life from the inside, and a huge part of that is mindset and the energy that you're bringing to a situation. Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  44:41 it's it's like, well, one of the things that I constantly tell people is there are a lot of times that something occurs to you or that you're involved with you have no control over, because you're not the one that that did it, or you're not the one that directly made this happen. And but you always have the choice of how you deal with whatever happens. So even if you don't have any direct influence over something occurring, you have always the opportunity to determine how you're going to deal with it. And that's always something that I think is so important for people to analyze and think about. But I think all too many people don't Kassandra Hamilton  45:21 absolutely the power is in our pause. And that's something I tell people all the time, the power is in your pause. Slow down, take a second, don't respond right away. And then come from a place of power, and you know that it changes everything. Michael Hingson  45:38 Well, the reality is that the more of that that you do, the more you pause, the more you think about it. The fact is, the quicker, over time, you'll be able to make a decision, because you're teaching yourself how to do that Kassandra Hamilton  45:54 truly. Yep. Michael Hingson  45:56 And so for a while, you may not be able to or you you are not confident enough to be able to make a decision right away, which is fine, you should pause. But the fact of the matter is, I think what I really describe it as, and I think it's so true, is you need to learn to listen to your inner voice, because your inner voice is going to tell you what you need to do. And you just need to really learn to focus on that, but we don't. We always say, Oh, that's too easy. That can't be the right answer when it really is. Kassandra Hamilton  46:26 It really is. And so again, that pause is also about space, right? So when I feel triggered by something, I will take the space to let myself come back down from that and then ask myself what I really want, or again, coming back to boundaries, if someone asks me if I want to do something, and I'm a very social person, and I love connection, so right away, I want to say yes, I'll, you know, do that thing with you. Now I have a really beautiful way to still show that it's like something I want to partake in, but honor myself as well. By saying I love this idea, I need a little bit of time to figure out if I can fully commit to this, and I'll get back to you at this time so it shows integrity, not only to myself, but to to that person as well, and showing up in a way that it like, if I have capacity to do that, then I will, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:25 Well, if somebody listening to this kind of feels unfulfilled or stuck exhausted, what's the very first step that you would suggest that they take? Kassandra Hamilton  47:37 Just like I was saying, just take a pause. Michael Hingson  47:40 I knew you were going to Kassandra Hamilton  47:41 say that create a moment of space. Ask yourself, what's really going on and what you really want, and then ask yourself if your actions are all the choices that you're about to make align with that, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:56 And the reason I asked the question was, was really just to get you to reiterate that and to get people to hear it again, because we have to really come together in our own minds and decide what we want to do, and we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions. There's no need to do that, if we think about it and really take the time to ponder what makes the most sense to do. Can we'll get the right answers if we work at it Kassandra Hamilton  48:22 100% you just have to put in a little bit of curiosity and time to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  48:33 What do you think is one of the greatest misunderstandings about burnout and what is the truth that you really wish more people knew? Kassandra Hamilton  48:46 People think burnout is just about being tired or needing a vacation, but it's so much deeper than that. And you know, it's a sign that we've been living out of alignment with ourselves, and that rest alone isn't going to fix it real, real recovery is is coming from changing the way that we live and setting boundaries and reconnecting with what matters and building a life that gives energy instead of strain. Michael Hingson  49:16 Yeah, again, it gets back to that authenticity thing. Kassandra Hamilton  49:19 Yep, that thing, yeah. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some of the biggest transformations that you've seen from your clients that you're really pleased about? Kassandra Hamilton  49:33 I've seen clients go from anxious and depleted to, like I said, starting businesses that they love. And that wasn't even something that we worked on together, it was like just a few tweaks, you know, simple but not easy, shifts that they made. And then I get emails or comments about how they're starting businesses that they love, and they're full time booked in that so like that. That's been a big transformation. Question for a few of my clients. One woman was trying to find a relationship, and she had tried everything, and from all different angles, and it wasn't working, and truthfully, she needed to come back to herself and align with herself, and when she did that, you know, nine months later, she found the love of her life, and one client said she stopped feeling numb for the first time in years. Another shared that she actually laughed and felt joy again. And these transformations are powerful because they're not just surface change or changes. They're they're life changing shifts in how people see themselves and what they what they feel like they can create in the world. Michael Hingson  50:46 And ultimately, isn't most of this transformation or shift really a change in one's mindset. Kassandra Hamilton  50:54 Yes, it is mindset, and it is also taking the time, taking the time, having the courage and having awareness of how we are operating in our daily lives, and why, yeah, and then shifting that. Michael Hingson  51:12 Well, tell us all about the book. When did it launch, and what's happened, and what do you see coming down the line for it and so on? Yes, I know you have a lot to talk about, so tell us. Kassandra Hamilton  51:27 So the magic of realigning from the inside out is very much in line with what I coach about, which is about bringing us back home to ourselves. And I share a lot of personal storytelling and scientific connections and soulful practices that I've tried that have worked really well for me, and I really invite readers to reconnect with with themselves. So it's sort of like a guidebook like the first the first half of the book is a lot of stories, the second half is more tools and strategies. And overall, it's the idea that, you know, the answers aren't out there. They have to start within. And we weren't meant to just get through the day. It's exhausting to try to fix and control everything out there. The thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, and so we have our one wild and precious life, and it's like, what are we going to do with that, especially in a world that's constantly pulling us outward with notifications and expectations and distractions? Yeah, I really believe this is how we show up to make a positive difference in the world by working on ourselves and spreading that upward. Michael Hingson  52:40 So when did the book launch? Kassandra Hamilton  52:43 August 21 was my book launch here on Vancouver Island, and I'm actually organizing a little book tour. Yeah, across the province here. So yeah, that's stay tuned. It'll be next month. I think so. Michael Hingson  53:01 Have you had any kind of book tours, or what kind of publicity Have you had so far for the book? Kassandra Hamilton  53:06 So I was working with a publicist, which was very new to me, and I was able to connect with some press. So a couple newspapers came to my book launch. There was, I think it was like 50 people that showed up, and the mayor came to give a speech, and he wants to meet with me for lunch next week and talk more about what I could do with the book, which is great, because I really think I can use it as a tool for helping in my own community and maybe even offering organizations some opportunities to explore strategies to get their their employees out of burnout. Yeah? So that's kind of what's happened so far, and a lot of bookstores have taken it up. So I've got all the local bookstores here. Have it. It's not available on Amazon, yeah, and it's actually a bestseller. I reached bestseller status in three categories. What categories, personal development, personal growth, and I think anxiety was the third one I have to look back at it. Michael Hingson  54:14 Well, definitely congratulations are in order for doing that. Though. Thank you. Thank you. So that's that is definitely kind of cool to to have that kind of situation and that kind of status happening with the book. It makes it very exciting and certainly gratifying in so many ways. When did you start coaching? Did you when did you actually start your company? Kassandra Hamilton  54:37 So I started coaching. Let's see two, two, no, a year and a half ago. So honestly, formally, not that long, but it's already just something I'm so passionate about and getting more and more positive feedback on. So yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'm just getting started. Michael Hingson  54:59 Well, that's fair. That's fine. Yeah, we, we think you're going to go far at least. I think you're going to go quite a, quite a distance with all of this. Do you just coach people directly, one on one? Do you do virtual coaching? Do you coach outside of British Columbia and all that? Kassandra Hamilton  55:18 Yeah, you know, I mostly work virtually, because then I can be accessible to more people. So that's how I actually prefer to work, is virtually, but I'm open to, you know, meeting people where they're at and however they want to communicate. So I've been doing phone calls with with one person and then zoom with another, and if people do want to do in person, I'm open to it. It's just a little bit more restrictive in terms of reach. But I'm also going to be doing some wellness workshops and talks around these tools and strategies I've learned, and using my book as a tool as I go through the province next month. So it's not just going to be about the book. It's going to be presenting and giving workshops and talks around this work, and then presenting my book as a tool to use in in helping people get back to a place of alignment and energy again. Michael Hingson  56:20 Well, on your on your website, we haven't talked about that yet, but on your website, do you have any videos of talks or anything like that that you've done? Kassandra Hamilton  56:31 Not of any talks. I think my first one, to be honest with you, is, was at the book launch, but it went so well that I'm just sort of, I'm I'm adding fuel to that fire, you know, and I'm just gonna keep going, yeah. So I haven't done any talks beyond that one yet, but I have some testimonials and things on my website. So those are the videos that are there. Michael Hingson  56:55 Well, for people who are listening to this today, who feel like they want to do. So, how can they reach out to you and connect with you, and what? What happens? Kassandra Hamilton  57:05 Yeah, so the best way is to reach out to me through my website or my I have a link tree link that I think I might have sent you, Michael, but it has all my different links for working on with coaching or reaching out in different ways and contact information. So link tree, Instagram are my main ones, but also obviously email and my website. So what is your website? It's www, dot Kassandra with a K Hamilton, which is my last name.com, Michael Hingson  57:40 so that's easy. Www, dot Kassandra Hamilton com, Kassandra Hamilton  57:44 yeah, and on Instagram, it's at Kassandra with a K underscore Hamilton, so Michael Hingson  57:50 Okay, yeah, have you? Have you done much with LinkedIn? Kassandra Hamilton  57:55 I have, yeah, I also have LinkedIn, yep. And I have Tiktok, and I have Facebook, Michael Hingson  58:00 all the things, all the different suspects, all the usual suspects, yes, yeah. Well, that is, you know, that is really pretty cool. I hope that people will reach out, because you've off, you've clearly offered a lot of very useful and relevant information. And I think that it's extremely important that people take it to heart, and I hope that maybe we're going to be able to have contributed to your getting some more people in the business too. Kassandra Hamilton  58:30 I really appreciate that, Michael and I know you've done so much work with people as well, and inspired others, you know, astronomically. So I really appreciate and feel grateful for the time that you've given me today. Michael Hingson  58:46 Well, this has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. You'll have to come on and some point in the future and let us know how things are going and how the book is doing, and how everything else is happening. But I, but I really do value the fact that you've spent so much time with us today. Kassandra Hamilton  59:03 Thank you so much. At least we're in the Michael Hingson  59:06 same time zone. That helps. Yes, that's true. Well, Kassandra, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you out there for listening to us and being with us and watching us, whichever you do. I'd love to hear from you as well. I'd like to get your thoughts and your opinions. Please reach out to me. At Michael H i, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd like to get your thoughts. Like to know what you thought of today's episode, wherever you are experiencing the podcast, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews highly, and we would really appreciate you giving us reviews of this episode and the podcast in general, and for anyone out there, including you, Kassandra, who might know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable. Mindset and tell their own story. Please reach out. Let

Relationships are the key to B2B sales.  But implementing a process to dramatically enhance those relationships is another story. That's where entertaining comes in.  Many salespeople never consider it.  Yet, it can, and has, provided a competitive advantage if you do it right.  In my own experience, I can trace a $2 MM account directly to an entertaining event.  And the biggest, richest sale I ever had was set up by an entertaining event.  In this post, I explore the Why's and how's of entertaining.  Check out The Excellence & Influence Course for Sales Leaders

MM 28 Nov 2025 by Studio ARTES

BROOKE SUMMERHILL has written a new book to address "Divorce and the Wealthy Woman." https://youtu.be/FFSeBg3XT8M In this conversation, Brooke discusses the complexities of divorce, particularly focusing on the financial aspects that wealthy women face. She emphasizes the importance of understanding one's balance sheet, hiring the right professionals, and navigating complex assets during divorce. The discussion also covers the emotional components of divorce, the significance of having a supportive team, and the benefits of open conversations about finances, including the role of prenups. Takeaways from "DIVORCE FOR THE WEALTHY WOMAN" Divorce can be a daunting process, especially regarding finances. Understanding your balance sheet is crucial during divorce. Breathing and staying calm can help alleviate anxiety. Hiring the right professionals is essential for navigating divorce. Complex assets require specialized knowledge and support. Cash flow planning is vital for post-divorce stability. Parenting during divorce needs careful planning and support. Open conversations about finances can strengthen relationships. Prenups can facilitate healthy discussions about money. Divorce is a journey that can become easier with the right support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Divorce and Finances 02:58 Understanding the Balance Sheet 05:45 Navigating Complex Assets in Divorce 09:05 Building Your Professional Team 12:04 The Emotional Component of Divorce 15:09 Modeling Settlements and Cash Flow Planning 17:56 Parenting and Financial Responsibilities 20:41 Preventative Measures and Financial Awareness 23:53 The Role of Prenups in Marriage and Divorce Transcript of "DIVORCE FOR THE WEALTHY WOMAN" Frazer Rice (00:01.186) Welcome back, Brooke.Brooke Summerhill (00:03.378) Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Let's chat about the most fun topics in the world. Divorce and finances, right?Frazer Rice (00:09.952)Well, and codified in your new book, Divorce for the Wealthy Woman. I have already started, and I think it's a winner for a bunch of reasons. The big one really is addressing a viewpoint that I think has been missed by the financial books generally speaking,Brooke Summerhill (00:15.794)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (00:31.086)It really corrects a problem, I think, around information asymmetry in finances generally. And unfortunately, we've both been around it from a divorce perspective. Tell me what, first of all, let's let our listeners remind themselves of your practice. And what do you do there? And then what was the book trying to accomplish? https://www.amazon.com/Divorce-Wealthy-Women-costs-that-ebook/dp/B0G1ZMFVCN/ Brooke Summerhill (00:53.554)Okay, so hi, I'm Brooke Summerhill. I do specifically for the last like 15 years in finance. Specifcially in the last five specifically in divorce and finance for wealthy women. So I'm not very creative my book specifically and my podcast is literally called divorce for the wealthy woman. I love being able to understand the perspective of someone going through divorce,not feeling the fire, and creating a years long fight. I help alleviate the stress of divorce and go through the finances, the emotional aspect, I'm in financial psychology. I've been doing that and I plan on continuing doing that. It's a fun, fun, fun career path for me.Frazer Rice (01:40.526)One of the great things I think about your book is it starts where I start. You really have to be comfortable with what your balance sheet looks like. Take us through a little bit about your experience in helping wealthy women get acquainted with something they weren't familiar with initially. However, they have to get familiar with it real fast.Brooke Summerhill (02:03.014)So typically, you go to a lawyer . You're about to get divorced and it was blindsided in your face. my god, what is going on? He wants to get divorced or she wants to get divorced. Doesn't matter who you are, heterosexual couple or not. It does not matter. You might not know where the finances are, right? And you're going to a lawyer. You expect them to help you out, but you don't even know where the assets are. You don't know it's on the balance sheet. So the first step is breathing.Let's not get into this sympathetic nervous system. No fight or flight, freeze, thaw, and let's not go there if we can't avoid it. And really just breathe and understand it's going to be OK. That's the first thing I want to just point out is you can do the work on yourself without having to do hard interval training. You can just breathe. So you're going to breathe and understand, OK, the balance sheet. I can figure this out. You got it. And you might need to hire someone like myself who's a certified divorce financial analyst, you might have your lawyer help you. You might ask your soon to be ex if they're willing and amicable to understand the balance sheet. You might go to a financial advisor, wealth manager, your family office and ask some questions. So this is a time of learning and it's okay that you don't know where everything is. And the balance sheet is terrifying for most people. 98 % of us have money anxiety. It's okay. Breathe.Get help and support where you can. The foundation is the balance sheet. If this is the only thing you take from today, is just breathe and know that the foundation is your budget, your expenses, what's coming in, what's going out. Can you figure that out? Even though you might not know where your assets are. Do you have Bitcoin? Or have different properties? Do you even know if there's liens, mortgages, loans on them? That all will get figured out. But you've got to know what you're spending.I would say, you tell me if you have a different experience. But most clients do not know their budget. And that's OK. Doesn't matter your wealth, income, anything. Most people, at least in America, do not know what they spend every month. So that's the foundation is to start theirs. Understand, what are you spending? Just keep a little log. It can be old fashioned. And I have plenty of technological apps that can help with this. But keep it old fashioned. Just write down, what are you spending? And keep that for a week.Brooke Summerhill (04:28.752)That can help you in your divorce process and remember to breathe. There you go.Frazer Rice (04:32.91)And it's part of my process, I think, is to just understand what you're spending. And then the next step is really understand where it comes from to help support that spending. It's like analyzing someone who earned 100 million dollars from this movie. It's like, OK, that's the headline. Now it's a lot different in reality. Certainly taxes, how it's paid to you.We'll get into this in a second, and sometimes it's not in cash. Sometimes it's in different types of assets. Whether it's stock or maybe you own homes, and it may not be necessarily liquid right up front. It sounds like we're parking our cars in the same garage on that front.Brooke Summerhill (05:19.154)Absolutely, absolutely agree with you.Frazer Rice (05:22.114)So maybe let's go through some of the complex assets that you think about that come up in any, not all divorce situations, but definitely in many of them. Many times people have grown their wealth through a private business. so even, you know, the number that is settled upon in the divorce settlement may not be readily available from a cash payout perspective. How do you take people through that?Brooke Summerhill (05:47.473)Oof. So I have an entire chapter on businesses because majority of my clients, I'm going to be very sexist here and say majority of my clients, husbands in a heterosexual relationship do own a business or have just been bought out of a business or are starting a startup or have something behind the scenes that they're aware of or maybe not even aware of. So businesses are huge thing. That's why I put a chunk of it in my book becauseThe biggest advice I can give is hire, I'm going to be a repetitive throughout this whole podcast today is hire the right professionals if you can, because you don't know what you don't know and that's okay. You're going to breathe through that and acknowledge you don't have to be an expert in divorce. But when you have a business reading, listening to podcasts, doing all of those exercises are wonderful and hiring an expert. So getting someone who's understanding the finances in a divorce specifically, so business valuator, or just having a consultation. That's enough to understand, this, I need a forensic accountant, because I don't know anything that's going on within this part of the businesses that I'm a part of, but I'm not really a part of, or I need a business valuator. Let's just have a consultation. It could be really a non serious, non threatening, non emotional way to start it.I'm just going to have a consultation to understand, do I need this business valuator? I would just at least have those conversations to understand more about your husband's business or your business in general on what are the numbers behind it? Because it is very complex, just as you're saying. Businesses, absolutely, you want the right experts involved.Frazer Rice (07:30.506)And sort of as a broader business, or not really business, but sort of as a broader sort of contextual situation here, the type of wealth, whether it's private funds, people who are invested in private equity or hedge funds or stock options or RSUs for people who are in the tech world, things that are held in trust, there's the concept of carried interest and real estate and concentrated stock.This is to go back to your comment that there are people out there that can help you. Understand those assets, I guess for lack of better word, can and can't do. As far as either provide cash flow or are easily divisible in a divorce settlement.

Sección de La Diez Capital radio con el Profesor de Matemáticas en EE.MM, en Tenerife, y vicepresidente del Centro de Estudios Imazighen de Canarias, Asociación Cultural "Tamusni", Pablo Deluca. Hoy hablamos de los Guanches y su descendencia.

NEDEN HEP SENİN BAŞINA GELİYOR? Tam toplantı anında bilgisayarın çökmesi,yere düşen o tek poşetin içinde mutlaka yumurtaların olması.. Murphy Kanunları sadece bir lanet mi? Yoksa beynimizin kötü haberlere olan dramatik düşkünlüğü mü? İşte kaosun ardındaki bilimsel gerçek ve her şeye hazır olmanın felsefesi.MURPHY KANUNU YALAN MI? Bu bölümde:Psikoloji Bilimi: Negatiflik Eğilimi nedir? Beynimiz neden %99 başarılı olduğumuz bir günde bile o tek hatayı hatırlar? Seçici hafızamızın sırrı.Ig Nobel Ödüllü Araştırma: Tost neden hep tereyağlı kısmı alta düşer? Fizikçi Robert Mathews'in komik ama bilimsel deneyleri.Kontrolsüz Kaosa Karşı Strateji: Edward Murphy'nin roket kızağı deneyinden Van Halen'in kahverengi M&M's kuralına kadar, hayatın zorluklarına karşı nasıl sarsılmaz bir irade geliştirilir?10. Adam Kuralı: Olası felaketlere karşı kolektif tedbir alma felsefesi (World War Z filmine atıf).Önemli olan, her şeyin yolunda gitmesi değildir. Mesele, ne olursa olsun hazır olmaktır. Sarsılmaz iradenizi inşa etmek için bu bölümü dinleyin.Birlikte Büyüyelim!

Les grandes manœuvres diplomatiques se poursuivent autour du plan de paix pour l'Ukraine. Les délégations américaines et ukrainiennes se sont rencontrées ce dimanche, en Floride. Ce lundi, l'envoyé spécial de Donald Trump, Steve Witkoff, critiqué pour sa proximité avec les Russes, doit présenter à Vladimir Poutine un texte amendé. Texte qui sera très certainement rejeté par le maître du Kremlin. Et pendant ce temps, que fait l'Europe ? Elle marche sur des œufs. C'est ce que souligne le Monde à Paris : « le devoir diplomatique des Européens consiste à ne pas provoquer de rupture transatlantique, mais à tout faire pour tirer l'administration américaine par la manche, afin de la ramener vers des positions plus favorables à la victime de l'agression russe. » Les bras ballants Reste que les Européens sont « marginalisés », déplore le Figaro. « Donald Trump est le maître des horloges et Vladimir Poutine est le maître du feu, résume un diplomate européen. (…) Face à la nouvelle machine de guerre américano-russe, l'Europe reste les bras ballants. Après quatre ans de promesses non tenues vis-à-vis de Kiev, de lenteurs dans les livraisons d'armes, de frilosité et de mots en l'air, elle continue à hésiter et à se diviser, elle qui n'a jamais donné aux Ukrainiens les moyens de gagner la guerre. » Et le Figaro s'interroge : « les Européens consentiront-ils l'effort nécessaire, y compris en s'opposant aux Américains, pour éviter que les Ukrainiens ne soient acculés à une paix injuste qui récompense l'agresseur ? » Le Soir à Bruxelles ne prend pas de gants pour fustiger les atermoiements européens : « ridiculisés par les États-Unis de Trump, ignorés par la Russie de Poutine, les dirigeants européens, à tous les étages de l'édifice, sont devenus un bouchon dans l'océan du monde. Ils sont incapables de tenir leurs promesses à Zelensky et au peuple ukrainien et potentiellement, d'empêcher Poutine de poursuivre sa conquête, une fois la capitulation de l'Ukraine engrangée. Le Vieux Continent n'a en fait jamais aussi bien mérité son nom. (…) Son futur ?, s'interroge Le Soir.  Dicté de l'extérieur par l'ogre chinois, le diable américain et le dictateur russe. Son présent ? Miné de l'intérieur par les sondages qui font de Bardella et de l'AfD, les prochains maîtres de la France et de l'Allemagne et les futurs alliés du couple Meloni-Orban. Comment arrêter cette descente aux enfers ? La réponse, urgente, fait aujourd'hui totalement défaut. » Des financements et des armes Pour le Guardian à Londres, l'Europe doit impérativement faire plus et mieux. « Après quatre années de résistance, de sacrifices et de souffrances, l'Ukraine ne doit pas céder à un démembrement cynique qui la rendrait durablement vulnérable à l'agression russe, mettrait en péril la sécurité future de l'Europe et inspirerait des régimes autoritaires à travers le monde. Il incombe à l'Europe, affirme le quotidien britannique, d'empêcher une telle situation. (…) En s'engageant à fournir à Kiev les ressources financières et militaires nécessaires pour résister à moyen terme, les dirigeants européens peuvent commencer à infléchir la dynamique des négociations actuelles. Que cette aide prenne la forme d'un “prêt de réparation“ garanti par des avoirs russes gelés, d'un financement du budget de l'UE ou d'un emprunt commun des États membres, il est urgent de trancher après des mois d'atermoiements. Il faut adresser un message clair à MM. Poutine et Trump, conclut le Guardian : l'Europe défendra résolument le droit de l'Ukraine à une paix juste. » Réformer les mécanismes de décision El Pais à Madrid renchérit : « Plus personne ne peut feindre l'ignorance. La dernière initiative de Trump concernant l'Ukraine a servi d'électrochoc. L'UE doit agir selon son propre plan. Et avec toute la célérité que permet la lenteur légendaire de Bruxelles, car il lui reste encore à débattre de la réforme de ses mécanismes de décision entre ses 27 États membres. La majorité ne peut se laisser systématiquement paralyser par le boycott de gouvernements illibéraux qui, dénonce El Pais, à l'instar de celui d'Orban, siègent un jour au Conseil et le lendemain au Kremlin. (…) Plus que des initiatives isolées, l'Europe a besoin de plans et d'actions coordonnées. Ce n'est qu'ainsi qu'elle pourra contrer l'expansionnisme de Poutine et faire comprendre à Trump qu'elle n'est pas un pion passif à la table des négociations. »

Adam welcomes back Glizzy and her cousin, first time guest, Lisa! We dive right in with Adam & Lisa talking about being the youngest sibling and also teacher's kids. We get into Lisa's love of NKOTB and a boy band discussion. In the meat, Mm!, it's all about being a 90's girl! From all the teen magazines and trends, to heart throbs to our Mt Rushmore of celeb crushes growing up. We end the show with a kick-off to Christmas! Remembering the Christmas meals growing up, dressing up and making movies with cousins and what present we wanted the most! Love y'all. Hut Hut

NEDTAKT FRA AGF-KAMPEN “På glatis i Aarhus”Hvad skal der ske nu, FCK?Vi var aldrig i nærheden af pointFor lav kvalitet over 90 minHvem er Neestrups forlængede arm på banen?Kan vi overhovedet se en vej ud af krisen?Partnere: Unibet og Austria TourismFå inspiration til din næste tur til Østrig: https://www.austria.info/da/anbefalinger/aktiv-ferie/?utm_medium=audio&utm_source=kvartibold&utm_campaign=DNK_25_1-CTM-004-09_top_bewegung-erholung_MM-58947&utm_content=MM-72646Følg Austria Tourism på Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/feelaustriaDK På Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/visitaustria/0:00:00 FCK vs AGF: Mesterskabsdrømmen knust0:05:02 Den vilde start0:06:36 Elyounoussi debat: Er han pengene værd?0:12:39 Midtbanen tabt: Presproblemer0:17:31 Neestrups justeringer0:26:36 Kollektiv nedsmeltning0:49:23 Den sportslige ledelse: Skal Neestrup fyres?

NEDTAKT FRA AGF-KAMPEN “På glatis i Aarhus”Hvad skal der ske nu, FCK?Vi var aldrig i nærheden af pointFor lav kvalitet over 90 minHvem er Neestrups forlængede arm på banen?Kan vi overhovedet se en vej ud af krisen?Partnere: Unibet og Austria TourismFå inspiration til din næste tur til Østrig: https://www.austria.info/da/anbefalinger/aktiv-ferie/?utm_medium=audio&utm_source=kvartibold&utm_campaign=DNK_25_1-CTM-004-09_top_bewegung-erholung_MM-58947&utm_content=MM-72646Følg Austria Tourism på Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/feelaustriaDK På Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/visitaustria/0:00:00 FCK vs AGF: Mesterskabsdrømmen knust0:05:02 Den vilde start0:06:36 Elyounoussi debat: Er han pengene værd?0:12:39 Midtbanen tabt: Presproblemer0:17:31 Neestrups justeringer0:26:36 Kollektiv nedsmeltning0:49:23 Den sportslige ledelse: Skal Neestrup fyres?

✨ 年度最大優惠｜訂閱年繳多享 2+1 個月使用權利：https://pse.is/8cq2qm 本集為十週年企劃的第四集，這次的 Podcast 系列我們希望多找更多外部的聲音，讓聽眾朋友可以了解更多專家在總經或是非總經領域的觀點。 本集邀請特別來賓，天風國際證券分析師-郭明錤來跟我們聊聊，蘋果的現況及未來發展？對 AI 泡沫的看法為何？供應鏈移轉東南亞有受到親睞嗎？中美科技戰的狀況如何？

Elshinta secara eksklusif bincang bersama Prof. Dr. Ir. Budi Hermana, MM, selaku Penanggung Jawab pengembangan UG Technopark dan Prof. Dr.-Ing. Adang Suhendra selaku Dekan Fakultas Teknologi Industri, langsung dari UG Technopark, Cianjur, Jawa Barat.Episode ini mengulas bagaimana riset multidisiplin Universitas Gunadharma yang melahirkan robot cerdas: mulai dari smart greenhouse, agrobot pemanen cabai, drone untuk precision farming, hingga robot catur. Temukan bagaimana konsep living lab, integrasi IoT, dan kolaborasi lintas fakultas mendorong lahirnya teknologi aplikatif untuk pertanian dan industri masa depan.

Suomen BU-skeneä hallitseva Verneri Teppo juoksi lajin MM-kisoissa Tenneseessä lokakuussa uuden SE-tuloksen, 70 kierrosta. Tässä Polkuporinat-jaksossa Mikael Heerman käy läpi Vernerin kanssa Big's Backyardin tapahtumat ja nostamme katseen myös tulevaan.

12 - Was Biden making airlines house illegal migrants? 1215 - Side - all-time toys 1220 - Ruben Gallego says the quiet part out loud. Where's the script? Are Republicans making fools of themselves over these military comments or are Democrats? Scott Bessent says who he thinks is the face of the Democrat Party.. Your calls. 1230 - We've been talking to PA State Senator Tracy Pennycuick for years, but we never talk about her extensive military background. She joins us today to discuss Democrat leaders speaking out against Donald Trump over his use of the military. How ridiculous do Democrats sound to Tracy? Why is this behavior by our leaders so embarrassing? If the show Task cost so much to make , did it really help the citizens of PA? 1240 - Is the filming of Task really worth it for the Commonwealth? 1250 - Your calls to round us out. 1 - Colts Neck School Board President Angelique Volpe joins the program today after she implemented a common sense approach to keeping parents in the loop over their child's identity at school. Why has she not taken nearly as much heat as you might think she would? Why would schools want to keep secrets from parents? Will kids be outed as a result of this policy? What parental rights does Angelique want to highlight in her Bill of Parental Rights? 110 - Phil Rizzuto is not a Hall of famer. Who is? 120 - Thank goodness that the federal government is getting drug peddlers out of our communities like Kensington. Why is there no outrage that we just have a part of our city just overrun with drugs? 135 - After reports that Jewish students have been harassed over the last few years in more liberal places like Philadelphia, the federal government is deciding to crack down. We bring on the ZOA Philadelphia Chapter President today to react to the news. Why is this so important to call attention to? What is the leverage against schools that allow this type of behavior? What is Palestine Day? 150 - How picky is this 79 year old aristocrat looking for a wife? Your calls. 2 - Chrissy Houlahan has released a statement after the FBI contacted the Sergeant at Arms within the House and Senate to ask our leaders to come in for an interview. 215 - Can anyone get the Money Melody? Returning to the tax credit issue in Pennsylvania for filming? Was this Henry's best MM yet? 240 - Your calls. 250 - The Lightning Round!

2 - Chrissy Houlahan has released a statement after the FBI contacted the Sergeant at Arms within the House and Senate to ask our leaders to come in for an interview. 215 - Can anyone get the Money Melody? Returning to the tax credit issue in Pennsylvania for filming? Was this Henry's best MM yet? 240 - Your calls. 250 - The Lightning Round!

On entend souvent que pour vendre, il faut insister sur la douleur. Mettre en lumière les galères, les frustrations, les blocages… et marteler que notre offre est LA solution.Mais est-ce que c'est toujours la meilleure approche ? Pas sûr. Je t'explique pourquoi avec l'exemple d'une entrepreneure que j'accompagne et qui a choisi une autre voie : celle du plaisir.Et si, au lieu d'appuyer sur ce qui fait mal, tu valorisais ce qui fait du bien ?

This week's Wealth Formula Podcast is about the economics of sports—if you are a sports fan like me, you will love it. But before we get to that, I want to give you my two cents on one of the most important elements to financial success in anything: conviction. As I write this, Bitcoin sold off from a high of $126K to under $90K. Other cryptos have lost 50-90 percent of their value in the same time. It's been called a blood bath. Some are even saying it’s over for Bitcoin. I might even believe them if I hadn't seen the same story at least 5 times before over the past decade. True bitcoiners have tremendous belief in what bitcoin means to the world. Someone who bought $1,000 of Bitcoin in 2010 and simply refused to sell would now be sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars. That is the reward for true conviction. The irony of this bitcoin cycle is that many of those individuals with high conviction are finally cashing in on the fruit of their patience. Almost every day, another wallet that hasn't been active since 2011 is selling off a billion dollars into the market into the hands of Wall Street and governments. That's why prices are tumbling. But don't be fooled into thinking that these buyers are the dumb money holding the bag. The story does not end here. Nor is the Bitcoin story a one-off either. History repeats itself as the story of investments unfolds over time. In December 1999, Amazon stock traded at $106. After the dot-com crash, it fell to $5.97. Every talking head had a eulogy written for the company. But if you were crazy enough to hold through the storm, your conviction paid off spectacularly: $10,000 invested in Amazon in 2001 is worth over $20 million today. Now, moving on to the topics of sports. One of my favorite examples of conviction is from 1920, when George Halas bought the Chicago Bears franchise for $100. The Halas family could've “taken profits” countless times. They lived through multiple depressions, a world war, a dozen recessions, five or six league restructurings, labor disputes, player strikes, and decades of bad seasons. Anybody else would've bailed. But they didn't, and today, the Chicago Bears are valued at over $6.3 billion. These stories have different time periods and different industries, but they all teach the same lesson: Conviction is one of the most profitable assets you can own. That's the message I want to leave you before we move into a perhaps more entertaining topic: the economics of professional sports. Most people think of sports in terms of touchdowns, rivalries, and Super Bowl rings. But the truth is… professional sports is one of the greatest wealth-creation machines in American history. Few people understand those engines better than our guest this week. He's one of the clearest, most respected voices in sports economics today, and he's going to break it all down for us: salary caps, streaming deals, and team valuations. If you are a sports fan, you are going to love this week's episode of Wealth Formula Podcast! Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI and may not be 100% accurate. If you notice any errors or corrections, please email us at phil@wealthformula.com.  Donald Trump pretty much bankrupted the USFL by saying we’re gonna go head to head, uh, with the NFL instead of trying to build a a Spring Sports League. Welcome everybody. This is Buck Joffrey with the Wealth Formula podcast. Happy, uh, Thanksgiving week, uh, and uh, this week because it is a holiday week in, you know, football and all that kind of stuff that goes along with it. We’re gonna talk. About the economics of sports. And if you’re a sports fan like me, you’re gonna really like this. I really had fun with this interview actually. It was just like me asking a bunch of questions I always had. But anyway, before we get to that, I want to give you my 2 cents. One of the most important elements that I think there is give financial success in anything, and that is conviction. And I bring this up to you in part because Bitcoin sold off. Um, and well at least all the time, I’m recording this from a high of 126,000 and then it, it plunged actually below 90,000. And then of course, there were other cryptos that lost 50 to 90% of their value in the same time. Uh, yeah, it was a bit of a bloodbath. It’s been called a bloodbath and it is a blood bath. And of course, there are some who are declaring Bitcoin dead Again. Um, and you know what? I might even believe them if I hadn’t seen, uh, the same story, at least I’d say, I don’t know, maybe four or five times over the past I, eight years, nine years, whatever. True Bitcoiners though, have a tremendous belief in what Bitcoin means to the world and where this is headed. And some of them, well before I ever got in, right? I mean. That serious conviction because, you know, the people who were buying, you know, back in 2012, 13, I mean, this was completely outta nowhere, had no one’s, uh, no one’s support, nothing. In fact, in 2010, uh, you know, if, if you bought Bitcoin back then simply refuse to sell up until now, um, say you bought a thousand dollars of Bitcoin. You’d be sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars of Bitcoin, right? That’s the reward for true conviction. And those people, frankly deserve it. Because can you imagine if you just bought a thousand bucks or something and it was already up to a million, it was already up to 10 million and all the way up to 20 million, you still didn’t sell. I mean, I don’t even know if I could, I don’t know if I could do that. I don’t think I could. I mean, at some point I would be like, take the money and run. Right. Um. You know, it’s a funny thing though. The irony of this Bitcoin cycle that we have right now is that many of those individuals with, you know, super high conviction, um, the ones that were in way before any of us and before me, well, they’re actually, a lot of them are actually cashing out sort of the fruit of their patients. Right. Almost every day right now, you’re seeing a another wallet that’s been dormant since like 2011. And all of a sudden it sells. It’s something that has done nothing, but just sit there in storage, selling off a billion dollars into the market, probably, you know, started out as like 10 grand. Right? And where’s that money going? It’s going to the hands of Wall Street’s, going in the hands of, uh, governments. That’s actually the ironic part here. That’s why prices are tumbling. Because I think people are saying, well, gosh, we’re at a hundred grand. I’m sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m sitting on a billion dollars. Uh, I think it’s time to get out, right? But don’t be fooled, in my opinion, to think that these buyers are, uh, you know, they’re the dumb people holding the bag. I mean the, the people holding the bag, it’s Wall Street, right? They’re governments and reserves. And, uh, you know, big treasury companies, the story doesn’t end here. And the other thing is that Bitcoin story is not a one-off in history at all, right? In fact, you know, it, Bitcoin gets a lot of attention. But you even look at something like Amazon, right? December, 1999, Amazon stock trading at $106. Then the.com crash comes, and guess what? It fell down to $5 and 97 cents. That’s a Bitcoin like crash, right? And every talking had a eulogy written for the company. And if you were crazy enough to hold through that storm, your conviction paid off spectacularly. If you had $10,000 invested in Amazon in 2001, it’s worth over $20 million today. So anyway, that’s the point I have though. You know, it’s, the point is about conviction. Uh, and, and I’m not saying that you should just be dumb, buy something and be dumb about it, but especially on these asymmetric things where you think something could be really big, give yourself a time, a period, right? I mean. The only thing other than Bitcoin that I think I, I’m really interested in, in the crypto space is something called Solana. Solana is down like 50% from its ties, and I still think that, you know, when the dust settles, I think this is going to be something that’s gonna pay, pay off. Now if I were to watch it day by day, uh. It’s demoralizing, right? But, but I think the point is, if you have some conviction in something, give it some time. You know, say, I’m gonna watch this for at least five years if I can, if I don’t absolutely get into a situation where I need that money, which hopefully you don’t, because this is not where that kind of money belongs. Right? But give it some time and don’t look, there’s lots of noise, and, and, and then just give it some time and see what happens. Right? Now speaking of giving it some time, you know, a similar story in the sports arena in 1920, George Halas, I think it was Papa Bear, right? George Papa Bear. Halas bought the Chicago Bears franchise for a hundred bucks. Yep, a hundred bucks. Now the Halas family could have taken profits countless times, and they lived through lots of, uh, bad times. Depressions, uh, you know, world War, uh, a dozen recessions, five or six, uh, league restructurings, labor disputes, player strikes, decades of bad seasons. And maybe anybody else would’ve billed at some point if they’d made, you know, millions of dollars from the a hundred bucks. But they didn’t. And the Chicago Bears, as much as I don’t like the Chicago Bears, are valued over $6.3 billion. Now these stories, ultimately, they’re, you know, different time periods, different industries, but same lesson conviction, it’s one of the most profitable assets you can own or attributes at least. Maybe it’s not an asset, I don’t know. That’s a message I wanna leave you before we get into the topic of today, which is the economics of professional sports. Now, most people think of sports in terms of touchdowns, rivalries, super Bowl rings, all that kind of thing. But the truth is professional sports is one of the greatest wealth creation machines in American history, and few people understand those engines better than our guest this week. He’s one of the clearest, most respected voices of sports economics today. And he is gonna break it all down for us. We talk salary caps, streaming deals, team valuations. We talk about the Green Bay Packers and why they’re owned by the city of Green Bay instead of owners. All that kind of stuff that you might have wondered about but you never really knew. So if you’re a sports fan, enjoy it and happy Thanksgiving. We’ll have that interview for you right after these messages. Wealth formula banking is an ingenious concept powered by whole life insurance, but instead of acting just as a safety net, the strategy supercharges your investments. First, you create a personal financial reservoir that grows at a compounding interest rate much higher than any bank savings account. As your money accumulates, you borrow from your own. Bank to invest in other cash flowing investments. Here’s the key. Even though you’ve borrowed money at a simple interest rate, your insurance company keeps paying you compound interest on that money even though you’ve borrowed it. At result, you make money in two places at the same time. That’s why your investments get supercharged. This isn’t a new technique. It’s a refined strategy used by some of the wealthiest families in history, and it uses century old rock solid insurance companies as its backbone. Turbocharge your investments. Visit Wealth formula banking.com. Again, that’s wealth formula banking.com. Welcome back to the show everyone. Today. My guest on Wealth Formula podcast is, uh, Dr. Victor Matheson, professor of Economics and Accounting at College of Holy Cross. He’s a leading authority on sports economics, studying everything from the financial impact of mega events like the Olympics and World Cup, to the inner workings of professional sports leagues, lotteries, and public finance. Uh, welcome to the show. How are you? Well, thanks for having me. Great. Always happy to talk some sports economics. Oh gosh, this is interesting. I’m a huge, uh, I’m a huge sports fan, especially NFL and, uh, so, you know, instead of talking personal finance, you know, without, uh, without any, uh, uh, sports in it, this is definitely a, uh, welcome for me. So, um, well, vigor, let’s start, start with this, you know, um. Most of us who are big sports fans, you know, we’re really driven by the idea of the, the, you know, the, the emotion, the entertainment. Taking a step back from your perspective, how should we look at this whole ecosystem of sports as an economic system? Well, uh, first of all, it’s. It’s both bigger and smaller than, uh, than you would imagine. So if we think of the NFL, the NFL ha generat more revenue than any, uh, sports league in the world. Uh, this year it’ll come in somewhere around 22 ish billion dollars. Uh, that certainly seems like a lot of money. On the other hand, a Sherwin Williams paint store comes in at about that same sort of, uh, revenue, you know. On many podcasts talking about talking about paint, right? Um, if we talk worldwide, all the sports leagues all put together, uh, we’re talking about maybe a hundred billion or so, maybe 120 billion, roughly the same size as Johnson and Johnson. So, uh, you know, it’s a big industry. It’s a, you know, billions in with a B, but it’s also a tiny percentage of, of the total amount of economic. Being generated every year, and, and so we can easily get, uh, um, we can easily get ahead of ourselves and say, well, you know, uh, it’s the biggest company in the world, the NFL, it’s, it’s not even 500. Interesting. Um, so let’s talk a little bit about this, um, uh, how value is created in these leagues. So, so, you know, you said professional leagues are built on the economics of controlled scarcity. So talk a little bit about that, if you would, how this scarcity model drives value and, and, and protects, uh, uh, profitability. Right. So let’s compare, you know, let’s compare a Walmart. To the NFL, right? Uh, so Walmart takes a look at all these potential places that you could put a Walmart and they say, oh, this would be a good one. And a Walmart goes in. And now that Walmart’s generating economic impact and generating revenues for the, for the. For the company and all these sort of things. Now let’s look at the NFL, right? Uh, the NFL does the same thing. They said, Hey, uh, let’s look at Las Vegas. Would that be a good place for a, for a team? Uh, is is London gonna be a good place for a team? Uh, and they look at those. Uh, but here’s the deal. If Walmart looks at 50 places and says, Hey, these 35 would be good places. They’re not gonna just pick the best one for a franchise. They’re gonna put. Walmart’s in all of those, right? Uh, the NFL on the other hand, very specifically saying, you know, we actually don’t wanna put an NFL franchise in every place that we could, uh, make a profit in because we want to be in the, in a world where there are fewer NFL franchises than there are cities that want them, and that generates demand for this. Um, Walmart can’t do that because if Walmart doesn’t put in a franchise somewhere, uh, you know, Target’s gonna come in instead. Uh, that’s not gonna happen in the NFL, uh, because there’s no other competitor to that. So they can actually restrict the number of franchises they have, which means that every franchise is selling at a, a super premium price. These are, you know, at the lowest end, we’re talking five, six, $7 billion franchises. Now, uh, they could sell multiple new expansion franchises, but they choose not to. To maximize the value of those existing franchises. It’s been a while actually since the NFL expanded, um, the league. And I’m curious, what are, you know, what is it that drives them ultimately to do that? I mean, again, you just mentioned there’s this whole scarcity issue. I mean, what do you think are sort of the limitations or sort of the. You know, the, the, the points at which they say, well, gosh, maybe we do move to London, or maybe we do that. Like, do you have a sense of that? Yeah. So a couple things they wanna do. So first of all, one of the big things that all of the leagues in the United States have done is they want to be a big enough league to make sure that they cover all of the good spots or most of the good spots for a team. You don’t wanna leave enough good team locations that a rival league could come and start to challenge you. Right? So thinking back to the 1950s, uh, one of the most important sports leagues ever to come about in the United States. Actually never even existed. And this league is what was called the Continental League. And the Continental League in the 1950s arose as a challenger to major league baseball. Major League baseball in the 1950s was exactly the same size as it was in 1901. It was 16 teams. But the United States had grown immensely and the league had started to move, you know, the Dodgers to LA and the Giants to San Francisco, but you still had huge amounts of the country uncovered by baseball. And so this Continental League came about as an idea saying, you know what? We can take on Major League Baseball by putting franchises in places that it doesn’t exist. They said, oh, here’s our new eight league team. And the way Major League Baseball responded to that is before continental baseball could even start, uh, start existing, it said, oh yeah, well we’re gonna put a team in Minneapolis. We’re gonna put a team in Houston. We’re gonna put teams in these Lee in these cities that the Continental Baseball Association was gonna go into. And therefore, uh, continental baseball never got into existence because Major League Baseball expanded into those locations and everyone has taken that, that hit. You need to be big enough to make sure that every place with a, a good chance at having a team, or at least most of them, uh, are covered so that there’s 8, 10, 12 cities out there, uh, a big enough footprint that you could have your own new league. Uh, do that. So, I mean, if you look at the NHL, if you look at NBA major league baseball, NFL, all about 30 teams. There’s about 30 or a few more big cities. But what’s very important is there’s not 10 or 12 big cities out there, uh, without NFL teams, without football teams that. A rival league could move into that space. You know, I’m curious when you, you brought up that Continental league in baseball. It reminds me when I was a kid of, uh, the United States football, like the USFL and all, they got all these, uh, players, like I remember Herschel Walker started there and, and there was a number of actually guys who ended up in the NFL and being big stars there. So they, they definitely, uh, started out pretty strong. What went wrong for the USFL? It’s so funny you say that. Uh, the answer is actually one big, uh, name. It’s actually Donald Trump. Yeah. So, so what USFL did is, is they noticed that their niche was, um, was the spring, right? We play college football, we pay play high school football, and we play the NFL in the fall, which means that, uh, people out there in the spring, there’s no football out there to be had. The USFL said, you know, we could move into this market. So first of all, we’re gonna move into the spring where there’s not a rival. Second of all, we’re gonna take at least some cities where there’s not active, um, football teams either places like Birmingham, right? Uh, so any case, uh, what happened there is the USFL. Kind of got a little, its ego kind of got ahead of itself and it said, Hey, now that we’ve established ourselves in the spring, we do have some big stars like, uh, uh, Herschel Walker, like Doug Flutie, uh, some of these others. We’re gonna try to take the, uh, take the NFL on, uh, head to head and we’re gonna move from the spring to the fall. And the other thing they did that was very important is they filed a lawsuit against, uh, the NFL, saying that the NFL was engaging in antitrust activity that was keeping this rival league down. It was, uh, keeping them off TV by using their market power with some of the broadcasters. It was using its market power with stadiums to keep these teams out. And so they took him to court, and I think the, the hope was that there would have to be a settlement and that settlement would result in the USFL merging with the NFL. And the owners of the big teams in the USFL would kind of get a backdoor into the NFL this way. As it turns out, the court, in fact did find in favor of the USFL. Uh, they said yes, the NFL is engaging in illegal antitrust activity, but they also said. You guys are insane. Uh, going against the NFL in the fall, there was no way you’re gonna make it. So even though the NFL was found guilty, the jury only awarded $1 of damages. Uh, technically in antitrust cases, that’s tripled. So they actually were awarded $3 in damages and the league basically folded the next day. They won their lawsuit, but they folded the next day. But of course, the owner that had most. Most importantly pushed the league to go head to head against the NFL was the owner of the new, uh, New Jersey team, the Generals New Jersey Generals. Right? And it was Donald J. Trump. Donald Trump. Uh, so Donald Trump pretty much bankrupted the USFL. By, uh, by saying we’re gonna go head to head, uh, with the NFL instead of trying to build a, a Spring Sports League. Now, to be fair to Donald Trump, which I don’t necessarily want to be, but to be fair to him, um, there’s no guarantee that the USFL would’ve made it as a spring league either, but I think anyone, again, a jury looking at this said there was just no chance of that league, uh, surviving against, uh, the NFL. If you try to go head to head in the poll. Just, just outta curiosity, uh, you know, there, when you talk about Trump, I know like he’s had an interest in, you know, professional football teams for a long time where he did, at least, there’s a certain politics that goes into buying an NFL team as well, right? Right. So the NFL is a partnership. Yeah. Which means that they can choose who they decide to partner with. And, uh, the presumption was, uh, in the 1980s when Donald Trump was trying to become an NFL owner that Donald Trump, uh, neither had the money, nor had the friendships among other NFL player, uh, NFL owners, uh, to get into that very exclusive club. And so again, he was able to get into the USFL because it was a much lower buy-in, in terms of, of cost. The USFL owners couldn’t be as picky about who they wanted as fellow partners, and again, I think Donald Trump saw the USFL as a way to potentially get into the NFL through the back door through this lawsuit, and, and by moving directly in the, in the fall because the jury just didn’t find that, that there was any plan. By which the USFL teams could have ever become profitable, uh, going head to head in the fall against the NFL. Let’s talk a little bit about sort of valuations, because what’s interesting is, you know, you’ve talked about scarcity and, you know, the way that the leagues have manipulated, uh, that to make sure that there, you know, the values continue to grow, but at some point in the last 30, 40 years, the numbers just really skyrocketed, right? Where these football teams, you know. It wasn’t a straight line in terms of how much they were worth. What, what went into that massive inflection of, uh, of, of valuation? So, first of all, I think you’re exactly right. There has been this massive inflection. Uh, so I’ve been teaching sports economics since the 1990s and, and the 1990s were kind of at the end of an era where this was really one of the sames back in the seventies, eighties, and even as late as the early nineties, that if you wanna become a millionaire. Start out a multimillionaire and then buy a sports team because it was a, it was just a, uh, a dumpster fire that you could just burn up cash without any hope of any sort of real return. And that changed in probably the late eighties, early nineties. That really changed, uh, a couple things. Change that, uh, first of all. By the nineties and certainly by the two thousands, um, most of the big professional sports in the United States had solved lots of their labor relation problems with the, with the athletes. So there was always this question about, uh, you know, do athletes have the ability to bargain with other teams? Are they able to get free agent, uh, agency, are teams going to be constantly fighting and, and spending every dollar that they can down to the point of bankruptcy to buy that superstar team? And what happened again in the nineties, starting in the eighties through the nineties and the two thousands is pretty much leagues have, uh, agreed to a world where. We’re gonna limit the amount of spending, uh, that we’re gonna do on players so that we’re not all bankrupting each other, bidding for players. In order to get the players to go along with that, we come to an agreement that we’re gonna share basically half the money with the players. And that’s exactly how the NHL works, the NBA works and the NFL works. Major League Baseball is not like that yet. And we may see not this season, but the next one, um, them trying to finally join ranks with the other, uh, with the other leagues. Uh, the question is whether we’re gonna see that happen without a gigantic, uh, work stoppage that. You know, some people who are pessimistic think we’re, we may not have baseball at all in 2027. 2026 is fine, but 20, 27 may, may fall. So as soon as like your costs are all covered up, that you know that everyone is kind of playing on a level playing field. Once we know that we don’t have to worry about bankrupting ourselves. We are only paying players, what we’re bringing in as revenue. All of a sudden, this is a fairly safe investment in a way that it never was prior to, you know, this all dying down. Couple other things going on here as well is, of course, the country’s gotten bigger. We have gotten bigger, but without adding additional, many additional franchises, which means, uh, those, those tickets are becoming increasingly expensive. We’ve gotten richer in a, in a skewed fashion, so that, uh, that of course the rich have gotten richer, a lot faster than the poor have. But of course, going to a baseball game, especially with those luxury boxes and things like this, is, uh, an activity that is reserved for the wealthy. And as the wealthy have gotten more, uh, uh, have gotten, you know, increasingly rich, uh, that means that. You know, businesses like Major League Baseball in the NFL that cater to the upper class, uh, do disproportionately well. And the last thing, and I’m sure you’ve talked about, uh, this before, is on your show, obviously you can have, um, you can have investments that are irrational as long as you think there’s someone later that’s irrational, that you can, you can hand it off to, right? This is, this is all the Greater fool theory. Uh, although I don’t think necessarily in this case, the, the owners are fools, but. Sports teams are a toy of billionaires that you say, well, look, I, I am, I’m a Mark Cuban. I’ve made billions of dollars. Now I want to spend some of my, my money on a, a fun asset. You know, you and I might collect a baseball cards. Mark Cuban might collect baseball teams, right? Uh, so, uh, in a world you might be willing to overpay because you wanna be a sports soldier and you wanna rub elbows with. You know, KA Leonard, you wanna rub elbows with, uh, with, with Shhe Tani. Um, and you may be willing to overpay for that asset, but guess what? 20 years down the way, there’s still gonna be another billionaire who wants to rub elbows with that next generation of superstars. And so you’re fairly sure that the next time when it comes to sell your franchise, there will be another person who’s willing to pay a premium for that asset as well. So again, as we’ve gotten more billionaires, more billionaire wealth, um, this is something that, uh, you know, has attracted folks like Steve Ballmer to, to part with, with big money. And, uh, again, as billionaire assets have grown, uh, the ability and the desire to buy these teams has grown as well. I would think a major driver of the value. Is also coming from, um, the, the media sources, uh, that are changing, right? Where, I mean, I remember, you know, again, being a kid and there was this, you know, there was Monday night football and it was on NBC and. And that, that’s how it worked. But now there’s like bidding for these things and you’ve got Amazon, uh, doing Thursday night football, which is a little weird. Um, and you know, you sometimes you have, uh, uh, you have games on Peacock. What’s going on with that? How does it affect the economics? Uh, and ultimately, like where is this headed? So, uh, in a, in a league like the NFL, uh, over 60% of all revenues that they generate is media revenue, right? Because most of us aren’t going to games every day, uh, too expensive for us, or too time consuming or all sorts of other things. But, uh, lots of us tune in on tv. So we’re talking about, uh, well over $10 billion of annual media contracts with the NFL. Um, and those numbers have been going up, uh, at least in part because you have media companies, uh, in a pretty competitive environment bidding against one another for these things. Now, one of the things about, again, things like the NFL or the NBA is it allows broadcasters or other types of TV networks to bring in customers in a way that their regular programming doesn’t. So a, a company may actually be willing to overpay for the NFL, kind of as a way to get people to buy all of your other products. A famous example from early days, uh, is, is Fox, right? So in the old days there were three big networks. So old days, I’m talking, you know, 1970s, there were the three big networks, right? There was A, B, CNB, C, and CBS, and they all competed against one another. And then in the 1980s, this rival network came up and this is Fox. And they wanted to get into all these markets nationwide. Well, how do you make sure that a. A local station decides to pick up the Fox programming. So for example, I grew up in Denver and Denver had a, had a, an independent channel that, you know, played reruns and all sorts of other things, and, and so they have a broadcast license already. Fox goes up to them and says, Hey, would you like to carry our regular programming? And, and that, that channel said, well, I don’t really think so. We’re doing fine showing Gilligan’s Island and Love Boat and things like this, and we don’t need, uh, an entire set of your programming. We’re doing just fine, as as it is. Uh, so Fox couldn’t get a foothold in that Denver market. So what Fox does is they buy rights to the NFL. All of a sudden now they go back and say, Hey, we’ve got all this Fox programming, we’ve got the Simpsons, and we’ve got, I don’t know, uh, you know, uh, you know, these early, these early Fox programming. But, um, they say, but we also have the NFL. You can’t, you can’t turn down the NFL. And then all of a sudden that existing affiliate says, okay, all right, we’ll add the whole line of Fox programming because you’re right, we can’t turn down having the NFL. So what, what basically happens here is the NFL serves as this kind of must stock item. And uh, you know, Fox was willing to overpay for the NFL because now they’re gonna get everyone to be able to buy the Simpsons and everything else they were offering at the same time. Uh, and so media rights have gone much, have gone up much faster. And we see this all over the place, right? How do you get people to buy. Amazon Prime. Well, let’s say that’s the only way you get to watch, uh, football on Thursday nights. How do you get people to buy, you know, apple tv? You offer major league soccer games as part of their package, right? Uh, and so this is how you kinda legitimize yourself as an actual, real, uh, you know, quote real media company is by offering some, uh, live. Live sports. And that gets people who would not otherwise buy Netflix or Amazon Prime or Apple, uh, to actually purchase those because again, they’re offering this secondary item. Then presumably that in turn drives up the value of of the NFL and you know, they’re bringing in a lot more money because they’ve got not just the three major networks bidding on them, but they’ve got all sorts of big companies with deep pockets. Willing to, you know, increase their, their, their revenue is and, and that sort of snowballs. Is that, is that fair? No, and that’s exactly right. And, and for as much as I talk about, you know, that billionaire who wants the an NFL team or an NDA team as a. Prestige asset. Uh, they’re also concerned about having it as an actual functioning asset as well. So I’m willing to pay, you know, a lot more, even if I’m willing to pay a premium. That premium is based on a fundamental value in the first place. And how do you drive that fundamental value? You drive that fundamental value by maximizing the revenue you generate through things like media contracts, and by maximizing. And by minimizing your costs, by making sure that your labor costs aren’t gonna run away with you, uh, because again, hopefully you, uh, most of the leagues have solved kind of their long-term labor, uh, their labor strife between them and the players within each league. There is also some different rules, and specifically, again, being a big NFL fan, I love the fact that the NFL has a salary cap and profit sharing for each team. ’cause it makes for a much more competitive league, basically, you know, for people who don’t know what that means, essentially each team can pay, has a salary cap of how much they can pay players for a given year. But not all of the leagues have that. Uh, I don’t really follow the other ones. I, I’m not sure who has it, who doesn’t, but I know that, like in baseball, I don’t think they have that. And it creates a situation where you’ve got the Dodgers or the Yankees in, in, in the World Series. More often than not, and you know, you’re not getting the smaller teams usually. No. So you’re exactly right. So the NFL has what’s called a, uh, a salary cap, and it’s actually got what’s called a hard cap. So they’re actually quite serious about this, and there are very few exceptions that can be made to go over this cap. Uh, this cap is based on the total amount of revenue that’s being generated by the league. Uh, and again, the cap basically is the way that they make sure that they share. A fair proportion of the money with the players. Uh, what’s also important is they also have a floor. So the, the cap this year is about 225 million, if I remember right, but the floor is about 200 million. So every team in the league basically is spending the same amount on labor this season, which makes for a very even playing field. And we know that some teams are gonna lose and some teams are gonna win. And it seems like the Browns and the, and the jets never win. And it seems like other teams always do. But what’s important about that is it’s not just because they’re in a big city, that they have these gigantic revenue advantages and that they can buy a championship. It really is, you know, who is smartest with their money, who’s smartest with your coaching, who’s lucky with the draft and things like this. And, uh, that makes for a very nice thing here. What’s also super important is the NFL has a gigantic amount of revenue sharing, and the reason for this is every single game you watch on TV is part of a contract that’s being sold by the league, not the team. And because of that, the league is generating all these, all this revenue, and then is equally distributing that money to each of the individual teams. So a, a team playing in little tiny Green Bay is generating exactly the same amount of media revenue as the New York Giants. Or the LA Rams. So that’s really nice. Uh, again, gigantic amounts of, uh, again, even revenue sharing to all the participants. As a matter of fact, of all of the businesses in the United States, the NFL is probably the single most socialist company. In the United States. So this Great American pastime is wildly socialist when it comes to how they distribute their, their income. So what incentivizes a team to be better and to win Then from the ownership standpoint, if there’s revenue sharing, is it just at the, the other sources of income that come, like advertising, things like that. I’m, I’m just curious, like if there’s so much revenue sharing, what is it that drives a team to, you know, try to be better from the ownership standpoint? So first of all is that being bad doesn’t help you, right? This isn’t major league baseball, so we’re gonna go the o. The other extreme, at least for a US sport, is major League baseball. No, uh, salary cap there at all. So you can pay, uh, players as much as you want, although there is what’s called a luxury tax. So as you, as your, uh, salary, your total payroll gets too big, you start getting, uh, uh, paying penalties to the league, which is then redistributed to the poor teams in the league. That being said, you can spend as much as you want. So yeah, the Dodgers, they spent somewhere, uh, by some accounts somewhere around $400 million this year on talent, including, you know, gigantic contracts to folks like Shhe, Tani, right? Um, but there’s also no minimum either. So if you’re a team that decides, hey, we’re not even gonna bother to try to compete this year, uh, you are the. I don’t know to, if I should call them the Oakland A or the Las Vegas a a or the Sacramento A or the Traveling through the desert, sort of a for a while. Um, but, you know, this is a team that made a decision not to compete and had a, had a tiny payroll. Uh, other teams have decided to do this, and the, and the NFL you could decide that you didn’t wanna win. But it wouldn’t save you any money because again, not only is there a salary cap, there’s a salary floor. So if I have to pay $225 million each year anyway, I might as well try to win with that 225 million. Uh, ’cause I don’t have a choice to just collect my paycheck and hire, you know, the Minnesota Gophers for $20 million, uh, for my, for my team this year. ’cause that’s not an option. Right. Um, one of the things I wanted to just kind of, uh, drill down a little bit on is the model of the Green Bay Packers. As you um mentioned, it’s a tiny little town, northern Wisconsin. Uh, not much going on there. I’ve, I’ve been there myself for a game. It is unique in that it is owned, not by billionaires, but it’s owned essentially as by the fans. How, how does that work? And, and I guess the question is like, why, why aren’t other teams modeled that way? So other teams are not modeled that way because the NFL does not want other teams to be modeled that way, nor do any of the other, uh, major leagues out there. Uh, it’s not good for the NFL for a couple reasons. Uh, first of all. They have to open their books. If it’s a public company and they don’t like to open their books, um, you also don’t have a face for that, uh, league in a way that, that a person couldn’t, couldn’t be in there, uh, pouring extra money in as a kind of a, an, an angel investor. Uh, on top of that, uh, you can’t threaten to relocate to another city unless you get taxpayer subsidized. Um, you know, uh, stadiums and things because it’s a publicly owned team and we know that, that those public owners will not ever decide to move that team out. How did they get that status in the first place? That’s an interesting story, and it’s a story that’s not unique to. The Packers, but it is fairly unique to the United States. So, uh, in the rest of the world, this type of ownership model actually is fairly common. Um, teams that your, you know, listeners would’ve heard of, like Barcelona, like Al Madrid, these are club owned teams. Um, there is not an owner there. They are owned by the fans themselves, and they’re in the business of. Trying to stay in business every year while winning as many games as possible. Uh, there is, they’re not trying to win trophies for a, a Steinbrenner or a Mark Cuban. They’re trying to win, uh, trophies for that fan base. That literally, again, the, the season ticket holders are those owners. Um, the NFL itself, you know, was, was a very hard Scrabble league for a long time. It started in 1920, uh, and between 1920 and 1935. Roughly 55 teams played at least one season in the NFL. And of those 55 teams, basically all but about six of them, had gone outta business or relocated at some point in here. Uh, this is why actually we got such a socialist, uh, uh, business model here is because the owners of the big teams, the owners of the bears. Uh, the owners of the Giants, uh, they said, look, you know, this league isn’t gonna work if we can’t actually find someone to play. And yeah, we’re making money here, but we’re not gonna continue making money if we can’t find other teams that are gonna work in this league. So they said, Hey, we are gonna be very generous. We’re gonna make sure that, that we share our revenues with the people, uh, the other people in our league. We would rather have a small piece of a big pie, uh, than a big piece of a pie that is tiny or disappears completely. Uh, so that’s why we ended up with this, uh, revenue sharing. And of course they were very open to any sort of model that kept stable teams around, including a model where rather than some rich owner in, in Green Bay owns that team. Instead, it’s a municipally owned team. As long as that team had stability and conform long-term rivalries and can afford to put forward a product that’s gonna, that’s gonna work on a, you know, on an NFL field to make a competitive product, they were happy to kind of do whatever they needed to do because again, this was a, this was a really tough league to be in. For the first roughly 20 years with, you know, a lot more successes. There’s been a lot of talk, uh, I know about private equity entering the, uh, the NFL. Tell us, give us a little bit of an understanding of that. I mean, obviously, I, I kind of think of these owners in these buying groups as private equity already, so what’s the big deal? Is the point. So in most sports leagues have already allow private equity and already allow ownership groups with multiple owners, uh, to, to own teams. So again, uh, you know, the, the Red Sox, they have multiple owners of, of that team. Uh, again, Celtics, same sort of thing. Um, but in the NFL we have required basically one owner, right? So this is a, a person. That owns the team and is the face of the team and is this controlling majority owner, uh, they’re going to explicitly allow external people unrelated to the ownership group, to own pieces of NFL teams here. Uh, and I think the, the real issue here, uh, has to do with, uh, there are some franchises in the NFL where the owners are asset rich, but cash poor. I’m thinking actually, for example, the Bears. So the bears are still owned by the same group. Who bought the Bears back in 1920 ish. Right? So this, you know, the, the same family, the Halas, uh, have owned this team for a hundred years. Uh, by this point, you know, little pieces of the team have been handed down to all the cousins and the grandkids and the great grandkids and this sort of folks. Uh, so, uh, you know, I think in total there’s something like 86 different owners of the, of the Bears now, but they’re all part of that original ownership group that everyone. You know, has inherited a little, a little share here. Now mind you, you know, one 86th of the, uh, of the bears is like a hundred million dollars. You know, the bears are probably an $8 billion franchise. And so that’s a hundred million dollars of assets that each one of these grandkids has just because, you know, their grandfather made a smart, uh, smart investment a hundred years ago. Um, but it doesn’t mean that they can live the lifestyle of a person with a hundred million dollars. Because they’re not allowed to sell their share to anyone because private equity was never allowed. And the amount of money that that team is actually generating in terms of annual operating profits isn’t super high. So you’ve got a world where you’re wildly rich, but you can’t really do a lot with those riches. So you know, this is a team that would be prime for the idea of, well, let’s sell off 20% of this. 20% of the team is gonna be maybe a couple billion dollars. And, and then we will just share that basically it’s a big Christmas present to each one of these, uh, these kids here. And again, the, the thing here is that’s $2 billion in cash that each of these small minority owners gets rather than, you know, an asset that they can’t actually use. To buy a yacht in Monaco. Right? And so that’s giving these kids, or the, you know, these minority owners an option to basically, uh, you know, get liquidity for their ownership. And, and that’s the big difference, right? And of course the other thing is, is there are lots of wildly rich people who would like to be an owner of a team in a way that you could do that 20 or 30 years ago by being just a, you know, just a multimillionaire or a multi, multi multimillionaire. That was enough. Uh. You know, you can be a billionaire nowadays and not have nearly what it needs to become an owner in one of these big groups. So, uh, you know, if we think about, uh, Arod, right? Arod bought, uh, the Timberwolves, uh, in the NDA, um. But he couldn’t do it alone despite the fact that he was, uh, you know, for 10 years the highest paid athlete in the world, you know, signed the single biggest contract, uh, in the history of professional sports, uh, when he did so. Uh, and even a guy with that sort of money doesn’t have enough money to buy a sports franchise. So, uh, I think the NFL is, you know, looking down the, the road to a, a world where. Someone wants to sell, but there’s not that many folks with $10 billion out there. And so the idea that we were gonna keep a, a world where there’s gonna be one single owner forever, uh, you know that that’s a pretty small pool of people in a world where you’re thinking about selling franchises at $10 billion. But if we allow these to be sold private equity wise. Then people can live their dream of being a sports owner, you know, for a mere couple billion dollars. And of course, that increases the pool of, of potential people by a lot. You know, you, you mentioned, um, during, just a minute ago in, in passing that these teams don’t actually necessarily throw off a lot of cash. They’re not, you know, they’re not super profitable. It’s not like a bunch of money’s being distributed to owners. Uh, can you talk a little bit about that? I, I didn’t know that actually. Sure. So a bunch of these teams in, in fact, in terms of operating revenue, don’t actually generate gigantic amounts of, of money every year. Uh, again, taking an an NFL team, so an NFL team is gonna generate, you know, somewhere around $500 million, maybe six or $700 million a year, but you’re already competing about 250 million of that to, uh, to the players. So half of that revenue coming in automatically is going to the players. If you built yourself a new stadium anytime recently, obviously you could have big payments on that. Uh, there’s other operating expenses associated with that. Um, in, in a world where you’re not the NFL, but you’re a world like, uh, major League baseball, where. You have much more variability in your, in your player costs year to year and more variability in your revenue. Uh, you could easily end up with years where you’ve got negative cash flow or at least negative profits, and, uh, and that means that you need, you need to be able to weather that. And so of course that’s one of the reasons, for example, why the NFL, you know, wouldn’t just take anyone as an owner, you need to be for sure rich enough to, uh, to weather both the ups and the downs. Again, if you borrowed any money to, uh, to purchase the team, uh, that’s obviously a big, uh, big interest payment there as well. So you could easily have teams again, depending how the owner purchased that, that are not kicking out gigantic amounts of cash on a year to year basis. One of the things that I’ve been hearing about, I don’t really know how this would work, is the, is of private equity moving into potentially like college sports. So we’ve seen some changes in, uh, for example, in college football where now these players can legally get paid. So it’s, it’s starting to look more and more like a professional. Uh, professional league. So how would that work if you’ve got private money essentially buying, uh, the sports teams of an individual university? Or maybe I’m not, maybe that’s not exactly what’s happening, but that’s kind of the impression I got. So first of all, that is exactly what could be happening and, and what people are talking about. Uh, I am deeply skeptical that this is a good idea for the institutions involved. Um. So basically it works exactly like any other sort of, uh, sports franchise, right? Uh, basically you would have an owner, uh, you know, let’s call him Mark Cuban, although he’s not, you know, he’s, he’s not talking about doing this. But imagine Mark Cuban decided he wants to buy, uh, Ohio State, right? Uh, so he comes up with a a billion dollars hands over a billion dollars to Ohio State. And now Mark Cuban is the recipient of any revenues being generated by the Ohio State, uh, program here. Um, and so this works like, just like anything else, right? So this is, this is basically, um, a person like bringing money in, in exchange for a piece of the action. Uh, the reason I’m highly skeptical about this because. Uh, remember the name of your university is very, very strongly tied with the name of your athletic program, right? So, you know, the Ohio State University is the name of both the educational program as well as the, uh, you know, the sports teams, right? And so, uh, one of the reasons that that schools have sports teams in the first place. Is as a method of advertising for their other things, right? So they, they use spectator sports to bring in the students to, uh, bring in, uh, actually, you know, public taxpayer money, all sorts of things. Um, and of course if the school controls the money from the, uh, you know, controls the athletic program as well as the academic program, then we can presume that the interests of the athletic program and the academic program are aligned. As soon as you’ve sold off your, your athletic program to an external, uh, you know, an external buyer, then you have every reason to believe that the incentives of that athletic program, the incentives of the. Academic program are no longer aligned in, in a way that is useful. Um, for example, you could have that, that equity person say, you know what? I’m gonna make money no matter what, and I’m just gonna tank all of our programs because I’m gonna generate more revenue by spending less. And that’s what maximizes my profit. But that may very well harm the academic side. And so if you allow, you know, private equity to come in and they have any control. Over that, uh, athletic program, you basically outsourced an extremely important part of your business while still meaning that your business in the athletics is, is importantly tied to the other parts of your business that you haven’t outsourced. And, uh, that makes me deeply concerned for anyone who would consider going down this route. Is, is that likely to happen, do you think? I don’t think anyone who makes predictions about college sport to this point, uh, can, can do that with any certainty at all. It’s fascinating stuff. Um, and one last question I guess for you, which is, you know, we talk about like people who own teams, uh, being, you know, multi-billionaires. Um. Is there any way that fans can still get a stake if they’re just simple millionaires? Is that just not something that’s po un unless you’re live in Green Bay, I guess, is that pretty much non-existent? So it depends what you’re interested in doing, right? So if you’re a mere multimillionaire, uh, you’re not gonna become an NFL owner. You’re not gonna become an NDO owner. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, if you’re very famous and a multimillionaire, you might be able to come into an ownership group because they want you as the face of the organization. Right. Um, one example of this was George W. Bush who came in with a very tiny ownership stake, uh, when, uh, he bought the Texas Rangers and he owned about. 2% of that, that team. But he was the face of that because he was the son of the president. Right. Uh, and, and then when the Rangers did well, uh, you know, he, he made a fortune doing that as well. So, um, the answer is generally no. But as long as your heart isn’t wedded to the NFL or NBA, there are certainly options that you can come into. Right. Um, we have seen. One tier down, uh, buying into things like the WNBA or the, uh, NWSL in women’s soccer or, uh, or women’s basketball. Uh, even that’s become pricey nowadays. These are a hundred million dollar franchises now these days. Or you can take chances with lower level, essentially minor league, uh, soccer in the United States or, uh, elsewhere, uh, in, in the world. And I think you know where we’re going here. So if you’re a merely. Multimillionaire, uh, and you’re a, a famous, uh, movie star or two, you could put your money in and buy a football or soccer team in Wales, uh, called Reim. Right? And of course, that’s exactly what Ryan Reynolds did. And Malaney and, uh, you know, they did not have anywhere close to NFL money despite being famous guys, you know, big movie stars, you know, you know, tens of millions of dollars in, uh, in money. They’re nowhere close to being NFL owner money. Guess what they were wreck some owner money and, uh, they get all the fun and excitement of being an owner without needing to be a billionaire. Interesting. Well, listen, uh, I, I appreciate all your time and, uh, it’s, it’s fun for me personally as a sports fan to see how this stuff works. Um, do you have a site where you write, do you have people curious about this stuff or, or how can they learn more? So how people can learn more is, uh, is there is some fun sports economic stuff out there. Uh, the classic, uh, book in sports economics is of course Moneyball by Michael Lewis, who of course is a great writer about all things finance and, and people who are interested in, in general interest books about, you know, all sorts of things related from to the tech boom to, uh, obviously the financial crisis of the two thousands to. His early days in, in junk bonds in the 1980s. Uh, Michael Lewis is one of the, one of the great writers out there. Um, uh, other fun books by colleagues of mine, uh, omics by Stephan Semanski is, is a fun one. Uh, and, uh, you know, you can catch up, uh, with some, uh, some. Other podcasts that, uh, that follow these sort of things, including Freakonomics has often things on sports that are, that are fun as well. Uh, unfortunately if you wanna, you know, hear from me, it’s all textbook stuff and then I’ll have to give you a grade. And so probably that. Uh, but again, it, it’s a great time to be a fan of sports and of economics ’cause there’s just so much good stuff out there. Thanks so much for being on the program today. Again, my pleasure. You make a lot of money, but are still worried about retirement. Maybe you didn’t start earning until your thirties. Now you’re trying to catch up. Meanwhile, you’ve got a mortgage, a private school to pay for, and you feel like you’re getting further and further behind. Now, good news, if you need to catch up on retirement, check out a program put out by some of the oldest and most prestigious life insurance companies in the world. It’s called Wealth Accelerator, and it can help you amplify your returns quickly, protect your money from creditors, and provide financial protection to your family if something happens. Steve, the concepts here are used by some of the wealthiest families in the world, and there’s no reason why they can’t be used by you. Check it out for yourself by going to wealth formula banking.com. Welcome back to the show everyone. Hope you enjoyed it. And, uh, once again, uh, I wanna just wish you a happy Thanksgiving and, uh, thank you for, you know, being a listener of this show. And one more thing, just a reminder, uh, we are heading into sort of the last month or so. Of, uh, investment possibilities in the investor club. Wealth formula.com is where you go to join that group. And if you’re looking for a last minute tax mitigation type investment, make sure you sign up as soon as possible. Uh, that’s it for this week on Wealth Formula Podcast. Happy Thanksgiving. This is Buck Jre signing off. If you wanna learn more, you can now get free access to our in-depth personal finance course featuring industry leaders like Tom Wheel Wright and Ken McElroy. Visit wealthformularoadmap.com.

Ped & Burk kick off the episode with a discussion of what they think the best month is. The boys ponder their 40th birthdays. Where has the time gone? Parking at a gas station will reveal a person's entire character. Don't sleep on Dairy Queen burgers. We list our perfect Thanksgiving plates, and then, in some foreshadowing, it's Burk's perfect song. For the MEAT, Mm!, it's a massive topic we've been holding onto: Our all-time top ten movies! A nearly impossible task! We get country to end the show. Hut Hut! Love y'all.

TRANSCRIPT Gissele : [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking to Krysti Beckett, who’s a passionate plus size personal trainer and pelvic fitness specialist. Her goal is to get moms to move with confidence and build strength at any size without worrying about their size or weight. Krysti resides in Burford, Ontario with her husband, three children and beloved dog Ozzy. Please join me in welcoming Krysti Hi Krysti. Krysti Beckett: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Gissele : No, thank you for being with us. I wanted to ask you if you could tell the audience how you got started in this business that you’re in. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, I mean, as a young person, fitness was not [00:01:00] really on my radar. I’ve been a plus size my whole life, but I actually was a nanny in my early twenties and one of the women I was a nanny for had a fitness business and she said, you know, you’d be really good at this. So I kind of started doing admin work and then I got certified as an instructor and really like, found movement that I liked. ’cause I think for a lot of women I grew up. Just doing fitness, like you exercise to be skinny. And it had to be hard and it had to be uncomfortable. But I kind of fell in love with it, trying different things and decided that that was the career path I would take. So I became a personal trainer and I kind of did follow the grain for a long time with the fitness industry and selling weight loss and teaching people how to basically always be on the journey to lose weight And then I kind of understood and, and saw some research that showed that [00:02:00] most diets are actually designed to fail. That’s how we make our money. And started to learn more about. The benefits of strength training for longevity to relieve pain. the benefits for your bones, all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the scale whatsoever. And through that, also becoming a mother at the, around the same time learning about pelvic health. So as a pelvic fitness specialist, I’m working with women to overcome things like pain, leaking, painful sex something called prolapse, where your pelvic floor, if it’s not supportive enough, the organs can actually descend from your body. And it’s actually fairly common, but it’s, it’s something we just don’t talk about enough. Gissele : Mm mm I love everything you just said. Krysti Beckett: Thanks. Gissele : The first thing is really that, you know, reflecting on as a society we’re very plus size phobic, right? Like we, we think that skinny is the place to [00:03:00] be in. When you think about. You know how much we try to get everyone to fit in a box, right? Even like plastic surgery, everything. Everybody has the same nose, everybody has the same face, everybody has to have the same body, and that is such a disservice. What sort of messaging did you see around the fitness industry about people embracing their own sort of like body shape? Krysti Beckett: So unfortunately, I think the industry as a whole doesn’t, if you were to Google Fitness, if you were to Google Gym, you’ll find young, white, thin bodies. that’s the general representation that comes to the fitness industry. But it’s interesting because first of all, we white people, I mean, I’m a white person. We are the global minority. It’s people of color, the global majority, and yet this [00:04:00] industry has only reflected that in, you know, visually especially it’s become an aesthetic rather than about health. There are certainly other professionals like myself that serve as health at any size or fitness at any size, but there’s comparatively very few of us. Gissele : Hmm. You just got to triggering in my head, when I think about fitness and I think about what you were just talking about, I envision sort of the Lululemon. Yes. Even like yoga has sort of been sort of taking over. ’cause yo yoga’s supposed to be a spiritual practice as well as a physical one. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : Right? But then you, and then I’m not trying to judge the Lululemon wearing. Yoga people. It’s just that, you know, I sort of envisioning how everyone’s trying to fit that mold. And if you don’t have workout gear, that makes you look acceptable. I was one of [00:05:00] those, I never had workout gear that would be presentable, right? I half the time didn’t remember to shave my legs And so, yeah, the messaging that people are receiving is that they’re not good enough, right? Krysti Beckett: A hundred, a hundred percent. And to tie in into what you just mentioned a lot of traditional practices that belong to other cultures. Like yoga have been whitewashed. And so there’s this, I can’t even think of the comedian’s name, but she is East Indian and she has this hilarious bit where she talks about like, if you are rushing to yoga, you are doing it wrong. The whole purpose of yoga is to slow down and restore yourself, and it’s something people do in their pajamas. But in our western culture, it’s people hustling to get to class and they’re taking their fancy yoga mat and they have to, like you said, the Lululemon [00:06:00] clothes. And it’s you know, on, on Instagram, especially when we see these influencers, they’re very thin. They’re wearing all the fancy gear and, and doing the very extreme poses, handstands and floating and, it’s incredible the things we can do with our bodies, but it’s also an, that’s an ableist perspective. Most of the population cannot move their body that way, could they? With training and display, I mean, it’s very possible, but for most people, that’s not what their bodies do, and that’s not necessarily what fitness looks like for them. Gissele : Yeah. And I was just contemplating on the fact that there have been now yoga studios that do drinking and yoga, right? Krysti Beckett: Oh yeah. Gissele : And so they do drinking and yoga, and then they do like the puppy and that, that’s all great. Like if that’s what you wanna do. But like you said, like, are we abiding by the true essence of [00:07:00] the practice? Right? Right. And are we creating environments that are. Open to different body shapes, different sizes, and let me know your thoughts about this, because I always thought these sorts of things are just a mirror of us, how we reject ourselves, right? plastic surgery these are billions of dollars. So these are people that are realizing or thinking that they’re not enough, that they need to look a certain way. the diet industry is billions of dollars. Ozempic, I’m interested in all your thoughts. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. I, so to start off, culturally, we are people that expect instant everything. I mean, we no longer wonder or search for information in our brain. Like, what was that actor’s name again? Or what was that thing that happened last week in the news? We instantly can pull up our phones and we can get the [00:08:00] answer in seconds. And so when it comes to something like our bodies, everything takes time, everything. And so to expect that you can change your body, particularly in appearance instantaneously, is not realistic. And. Unfortunately, I think a lot of pressure is put on us. One of the ways that the diet indu industry really messes with our heads is before and after pictures. And though the intention maybe, and I did, I used them for a time as a personal trainer. The, the intention was to show if you put in the work, you will get results. But that’s not what it ends up doing. What it ends up doing is telling our brains, here’s a body ideal. Here’s what you have. It’s not enough, it’s not worthy. Here’s what you can [00:09:00] have that is worthy. You will be a better person. We will respect you more. We will see you as far more valuable if you have a smaller, more chiseled body. And with Ozempic it’s such a weird time for us. In the states, especially celebrities can market pharmaceuticals. So we have Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: These beautiful people Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Who may or may not be using the drug being paid to market it. So using their influence in order to sell it. And I’ve had three clients that were on ozempic, two of them for diabetes but all three with the goal of weight loss. All three of them women in their fifties and no, maybe sixties have come off it because even though they did say it did help them reduce their eating, they found that they were always overeating and they were always thinking about food. They all reported low [00:10:00] energy and muscle loss. And no one is talking about this because especially after 50 perimenopause, when your estrogen drops, it is harder to keep your muscle, let alone, to grow it, to make more muscle. Mm-hmm. With ozempic. You are making it astronomically harder because it’s actually removing some of that muscle. And above and and above that there are other things that people are reporting. It’s hard, it’s hard to really know what the, the landscape is going to look like. Yeah. Over the next decade or two because it is so popular and seeing the effects. But every single medication out there, and I’m not knocking medication. I have used medication, you know that is a discussion between you and your doctor. But that discussion should always, always include the risks. And there are always risks to medication. You have to make that decision with your doctor. Is the risk worth it? Are [00:11:00] you going to get significant benefits to improve your health and your life? Right? But going on Ozempic because you saw a celebrity selling it because you think it’s going to solve all your problems with weight loss. I don’t know. I don’t know that it is. Gissele : Yeah. And I think one of the things that you just mentioned, which triggered in my head, it’s one thing to take a pill to help yourself, like as a stepping stone, But if it’s impacting your ability to create healthy habits, that you can continue beyond that pill, I think that’s where I start to wonder whether or not it’s really helping. Right? So if you take for example, something that can help you, manage your pain so you can start walking and out there and getting more physically fit, Krysti Beckett: right? Gissele : That makes sense, right? You wanna manage the, the symptom in the moment. But if it’s impacting your ability in the long term, and you and I have chatted before about Blue Zones [00:12:00] and about the importance of movement, right? And so if that’s preventing you from moving and creating those long-term habits, it’s would be concerning to me that that’s an option. Krysti Beckett: I think even, and speaking from experience with you know, having seasons of debilitating mental health, there were periods of time where I did need medication to function. I did need medication to get out of bed to be able to think clearly without I go back to the word debilitating, right? There are seasons of our lives where we need this, and of course there are, you know, lifelong chronic struggles where people are dependent on medication, and I’m so grateful that we live in a time where so much is available, but again, we have to have those discussions with knowledgeable professionals to know what we’re getting into because it can, it can lead [00:13:00] to alternatives that maybe we weren’t anticipating or thinking about. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna clarify for my listeners, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to change, right? Like, so there’s nothing wrong with, you know, wanting to be thin or wanting to be plus size or wanting to be fitter. Mm-hmm. It’s the way that it is marketed, the way that the messaging is you are not enough. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. If Gissele : you are not thin, you’re not enough. If you don’t look a certain way. I think that’s probably the most damaging thing, that we accept those messages and then change ourselves because it is okay to love and accept yourself and choose to change. Krysti Beckett: Absolutely. Gissele : Right. And say, you know what, because I, I dye my hair, I just like my hair darker right now. It doesn’t mean I, I don’t like my gray hair. And sometimes I grow up my roots quite a bit. I’m not rejecting myself either way. I [00:14:00] just have a preference, but it’s not gonna make or break me if I don’t go a month or two months without dying my hair. what has been your experience around the women that you have supported about their worthiness, around weight issues? Krysti Beckett: Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause what you just said about being content with who you are, but also wanting something different is, is not a bad thing. And I a hundred percent agree with you. It is a very uncomfortable conversation to have with yourself, to sit with the reasons why you’re doing something when it comes to your body. When you really start to think about, am I doing this because I want it? Or am I doing this because someone said something? Am I doing this because my mom commented on what’s on my plate at Thanksgiving? Am I doing this? Because every time I look at my pre-pregnancy jeans, I cry, am I [00:15:00] doing this because I saw another ad on my phone that’s telling me that I can lose 20 pounds in just six weeks? And why can’t I just do this on my own already? the conversations I have with my clients are truly, is it what you want or do you need to set boundaries with your mom? Is it what you want? Or do you need to get rid of those jeans and just spend the money and buy jeans That feel good? Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Is it what you want or do you need to tell that ad on your social media? No more? Like, what is that function where you’re Gissele : like, I don’t Krysti Beckett: wanna Gissele : see this kind of ad anymore. Krysti Beckett: there are things that we can do. We do have choices. And understanding that you can take that power back. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: You can. You can. And it’s, again, it’s uncomfortable, which I think is why it stops us. I’m totally guilty of not being assertive to somebody [00:16:00] in the moment and saying, I don’t like what you’re saying to me. Sometimes I go back, sometimes I let it fester. Like I’m gonna be totally honest, right? Gissele : Like, yeah, yeah, we do that. Yeah, Krysti Beckett: we, we do that. And that’s, Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Some of it’s human nature. Some of it’s how we were raised, some of it is cultural. Women are not to be loud. If we are if we are assertive, like we are called a bitch, like it’s Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Right? Like there are just things that culturally are not acceptable or that we’ve just learned to act a certain way. And so sometimes with my clients, it’s before they gain the confidence to do something different, they have to sit with that discomfort and give themselves permission to do whatever the heck they want and what’s actually going to benefit them. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Bravo I think figuring out like whose voice are we listening to, and is [00:17:00] it our true desire from our heart or is it someone else’s criticism of us that we’re listening to and maybe some people were raised with parents that, taught them those self-regulation skills. I certainly was not, my parents really didn’t know how to emotionally regulate themselves, and so I was not taught how to sit with those uncomfortable feelings. for you, what do you find helps you sit longer in that conversation or dialogue without pushing the eject button? Krysti Beckett: Ooh, I find that journaling is helpful because otherwise I ruminate. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And one of my. Funny enough, one of the, the pelvic physios that I’ve had and her assistant were like, absolutely life changing because they came at pelvic health and physiotherapy from a perspective of rest. Gissele : Mm. Krysti Beckett: So it wasn’t about what can you do to fix this? It was about [00:18:00] slowing down and breathing and releasing tension before you went to the exercises. And Al Pat is her name and she taught me the phrase, rest is productive. And so in our sessions sometimes she would walk me through a meditation and then she’d say, whatever came up for you right now, let’s journal it. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: What came up for you in that time? Where did your brain wander? And she presented me with this concept that I didn’t realize how often I do it, but she called it time traveling. So like chopping vegetables, I’ll be standing at the counter chopping vegetables and I’ll start to think about that thing I said to that person in the grocery store that I was really embarrassed about. Or I’ll start worrying about what my kid is going to do at that play date with that other kid that he’s been fighting. You know what I mean? Like, we start to either worry about things that have happened that we can’t change or worry about things that have [00:19:00] not even happened yet, or maybe they won’t ever happen. We, we are really good at this. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And so journaling and just bringing ourselves back to the present and telling ourselves, Nope, I’m not thinking about that right now. No, I don’t need to think about that right now. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that. It’s interesting ’cause one of the things I’ve learned about myself is that. What I find when I do too much past, it kind of leads me to feel more depressed and too much future can cause anxiety. So really being in the present moment is important. And I love what you said about those monotonous behaviors because I now use my monotonous behaviors to envision my ideal life. Krysti Beckett: Ooh, Gissele : I love that. So if I’m doing something, the socks, either I’m listening to someone that is inspiring, or I am daydreaming I’m going to use that time to think about what I wanna create, to think about the things that are exciting me, because I used to do the same thing. It was like that constant [00:20:00] back and forth past future, past, future, past, future, in my mind was not kind to me, right? Like it would go to the most negative thing. So I’m like, you know what? I’m wasting my energy. I’m wasting my time. That time could be better spent planting the seeds that I want to create. Right. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, absolutely. Gissele : Yeah. I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about pelvic health. Krysti Beckett: Hmm. Gissele : Because, and that’s obviously related to movement because like you said, it’s something that’s not really talked about in women unless you live in like Denmark or something, or one of those Scandinavian countries where they actually apparently invest in women’s pelvic health. Why do you think we don’t talk about it? Why is it so taboo? Krysti Beckett: Oh gosh. Okay. So yes, you are right in some European countries, including France. Oh, of Gissele : France. That’s the one. Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. Krysti Beckett: So France is like, they are like the topnotch country, in my opinion, when it comes to pelvic health. Mm, Gissele : [00:21:00] mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Women postpartum are given 12 weeks of pelvic physio. Women in France do not pee their pants. They do not deal with incontinence. It is part of their healthcare system. And here in Canada and the US physical therapy is generally not part of our healthcare. It occasionally is part of a surgical rehab. Although major abdominal surgery, like C-sections, hysterectomies, my ectomies, there is no rehabilitation investment whatsoever from our healthcare system, which is mind blowing, considering how small, how common it’s, Gissele : yep. Krysti Beckett: But when it comes to our healthcare system and, pelvic health, I think we don’t talk about it, number one, because it’s quite honestly, it affects women The most. Men have pelvises. They can have pelvic dysfunction, they can leak, yeah, they can [00:22:00] have pain during sex, things like that. But generally speaking, it’s not as big of a male issue. It is a female health issue. And when it comes to all the research that we have, women get a smidgen, they get like a little bit. And even the stuff that we do have, it’s geared towards, again, white women. And a lot of the standards that we have are, are based on the general population and not even for women. So for example menopause. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Had men included in the studies up until the nineties. Gissele : Wow. Krysti Beckett: So only the research. Yes. The research that we have for menopause. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Only in the last 30 years was it exclusively women. Gissele : Wow. talk about not generalizing to your target population. Krysti Beckett: When you think you, you think about the struggles that women have in health [00:23:00] and we’ve been taught not to complain and the common complaints are incontinence, so leaking pee when you don’t want to. So jumping, running, sneezing, laughing, coughing or painful sex, which is talked about even less. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And then prolapse I mentioned, or just pain in general in the pelvic area. They’ve become very common jokes in our culture. Like now that you’ve had a baby, you’re gonna have to wear Depends. Gissele : I was just gonna say that. How, how have we come to just accept that now there’s a diaper aisle for people? Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : Like, have you seen those commercials that are just basically like, here’s a diaper. Oh, this one feels comfortable. Like, why are we accepting that Krysti Beckett: and they market them sexy. Why are we Gissele : accepting that? Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: They market them as sexy, like the, the, it’s like invisible panty lines, but it’s like invisible diapers. Like you can’t tell that you’re wearing it underneath [00:24:00] Gissele : diaper. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting and I think the quick answer is that anything that can be capitalized is. Like truly, Gissele : ah, that’s, Krysti Beckett: yeah. Gissele : We’re accepting it, like you said. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : We are giving it power. We are choosing to just use that instead of saying, no, I’m gonna heal this. Right. Yeah. The only advice I got post having two babies that like to some real movement down there and it, it was basically just do like as many Kegels as you can during the day. And I gotta be honest, that’s so freaking uncomfortable. I would never do them. I would never, ever do them. Like I’m telling you, it’s, it was until I started having some issues and then I’m like trying to kele myself to death. Right. And there are some tools out there that you can use, right? There’s the, there’s like a thing that you can like. [00:25:00] Exercise, right? There’s like that. Oh Krysti Beckett: yeah, yeah, Gissele : yeah. Krysti Beckett: So there’s, there’s lots of things out there, whether or not they’re beneficial, mm-hmm. To everyone’s situation. Really, really depends. so Kegels, for anyone that’s listening or watching and doesn’t know what that is, but that is the term for the pelvic contraction of the muscle. So the tightening, and you have several muscles in there. Think of them as like, think of your pelvis. Your pelvis is actually two bones that joins at. Your spine think of that as like a basket. And the lining of the basket is a whole set of muscles and they have many functions. But they do hold in your urine and your feces and they do provide sexual function and pleasure. They hold up your organs, they actually contribute to blood flow in your body to help return blood flow back to your heart. So they, they do have a lot of functions and just like any other muscle. Every [00:26:00] muscle that functions in your body needs to be able to lengthen and contract. So when you’re feeding yourself cereal, when you reach for the spoon, you’re lengthening. And when you’re pulling the spoon towards your face, you’re contracting. Okay? When you do a bicep curl, you lower the weight. That’s a lengthen. When you bring it towards you, that’s contracting. You’re making the muscles shorter. So when we do Kegels, when we tighten them, that’s making the muscles short and strong. What happens to a lot of women and a lot, a lot of women, whether they’re doing Kegels or not, we tend to have an imbalanced pelvic floor. We tend to be very tight on one side and not tight enough in another, and that’s what causes the dysfunction. So dysfunction is anything that is not working properly. So to tell someone to just do Kegels, well, if you’re already too tight and you add more strengthening. It’s going to not help, it might [00:27:00] even make the problem worse. So in that case, that person might need to do some relaxation to release the muscles. And I don’t know about you, but having children is not relaxing most of the time. So for most women who have had children and over 85% of women will become mothers. Mm-hmm. They will have pregnancies and births. They need to manage their pelvic floor rather than worrying about being too tight or tight enough or pleasing their partner with their pelvic floor, which is another really awful message in our culture that pleasure is only for the man. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Sex should not hurt like ever. Gissele : No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m glad you said that. I just wanted to go back to what you had said that your mentor had said about relaxing before doing the Kegels. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : Can you talk a little bit about that? Krysti Beckett: Sure. So, a common thing that we do when we are stressed is we tense [00:28:00] muscles. Mm-hmm. We might not be conscious of how we do it, I’ll talk about three of the most common ones that affect your pelvic floor. One of them, which you can kind of think might directly relate is you actually clench your butt. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: So your glute muscles are not part of the pelvic floor, but every single muscle in the body does not work on its own. Every single muscle works with other systems, with other muscles. So there, there groups and there are pairs. And so your glutes, your butt muscles support your pelvic floor. Well, by clenching the butt we cause an imbalance. So that’s one area of tension. Another area of tension. Gissele : Sorry to interrupt you, but if, if somebody has constipation, that could also be indicative of Krysti Beckett: Oh yeah. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: Okay. Constipation is a pelvic floor killer too. ’cause it causes a lot of pressure and strain on the pelvic floor. Gissele : Mm. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, there’s a lot. And dehydration contributes to that as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, [00:29:00] that’s another one. Another area of tension is a lot of us like to clench our jaws. Gissele : Mm. Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And there is fascia. Fascia is like like a netting, like a saran wrap that kind of covers our muscles that intertwine through our whole body. It’s a really amazing thing in our body. Mm-hmm. When we clench our jaw, that fascia runs from our jaw. There is fascia that runs from our jaw down our spine directly to our pelvic floor. And so they together. Gissele : Oh, Krysti Beckett: tighten. Another one is breath holding. So every time you breathe in your diaphragm, which is your breathing muscle under your lungs, it actually works like a sub pump with your pelvic floor. And when we hold our breath, whether that’s just thinking and ruminating, or maybe it’s every time we lift the laundry basket or, or lift our toddler or whatever, if we hold our breath, we create pressure in that canister. And by not releasing the air, by not breathing [00:30:00] through activities, by not breathing through our stress, we are creating tension. And again, that pressure can lead to other issues as well. So honestly, the, the best thing we can do is rest. To relieve tension, to breathe. And I think it’s such a, it’s become such a cliche thing. Oh, just breathe. Oh, just relax. And if somebody tells you that when you’re stressed out, we just get more mad. It’s not helpful. Fair enough. But, but truly, if we allowed ourselves to slow down, to breathe to rest, to actually believe that rest is productive mm-hmm. It would help us regulate our nervous systems. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: It would help us relax these tight muscles. It would allow us to actually be present, be in the moment, and [00:31:00] enjoy what’s going on, rather than always worrying about what’s next and worrying about how to fix something. Because sometimes the things that we need to fix start with stopping and slowing down. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. I always thought there was a connection with, especially with like incontinence, that there might be an association with a fear or, or Right. Because think about kids when they’re young. Like if they have fears, they usually will pee the bed or they have nightmares, right? So like is there an emotional component to the pelvic? Krysti Beckett: So the, the kids part. So from a physiological standpoint, it’s incredibly common. More so in boys. Mm-hmm. Up to 2% of boys with what? The bed until 14 years old. And the highest contributor to that is actually constipation. Oh, so poor diet or you mentioned fears and I have [00:32:00] heard people say, well, it’s ’cause it’s strict parenting. But like, I think you kind of have to see, you have to know kind of your research before making. Gissele : Yeah, of course. Those, Krysti Beckett: those things. But from a physiological standpoint, Or they might be afraid of what might happen in the bathroom. And these are real fears. I mean, I was just talking with my clients in a class recently about how. Do you remember in middle school, like hiding the pad in your pocket and then when you got to the bathroom, you waited till the bathroom was completely empty to open the wrapper. Like you, we couldn’t mm-hmm. Have anyone know that we were menstruating. We like, it was just so, it embarrassing. So we’ve created kind of these conversations as young people. And then to add to that, I think that a lot of people generally have a, distrust and a shame when it comes to their pelvises, when it comes [00:33:00] to their genitals, because we over sexualize bodies. Gissele : Mm. Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And so it no longer becomes, you know even the simple concept of saying the words penis and vagina, these are not dirty words, these are anatomy. Gissele : Yeah. But we didn’t even call it that before. Krysti Beckett: No. Gissele : Right. Like Coie and Chacha and all these other words. Yeah. We have, I think now our kids are, yeah. Before, like during my time, people didn’t really talk about it. And I love what you just said about it’s, it’s so true. This is part of our anatomy, but we have shamed ourselves. I think this is why we have so much shame and guilt in, in the antidote to that is to have compassion for ourselves and to be kinder to ourselves when it comes to that discomfort that comes from having these conversations, which is why I love that we’re having it, we’re talking about, you know, pelvises and the importance of that health and, but you are right, like we are so used to [00:34:00] fighting these aspects of ourselves that we don’t talk about it and then we suffer in silence. Like, how many of us are suffering in silence, not knowing anything about pelvic health or not anything about the things that women are going through, right? Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: I think so many of us were taught messages, you know, like, you know, starting from a young age, you have private parts, you don’t show anyone else. Well, for some of us that led to hiding in change rooms. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: No one’s allowed to see this and you’re not allowed, like, don’t look. Mm-hmm. And then going into sexual relationships and not understanding that painful sex is not normal. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: Or understanding that like. Self, like self lubrication, like your body does to an extent, makes some, but if it doesn’t, like using a lubricant [00:35:00] is 100% okay. And encouraged so that you can actually enjoy being intimate on top of that. Self pleasuring is not a bad thing, it’s not a shameful thing. Mm-hmm. You can enjoy that beautiful body you have. And if, if you were raised in a church like I was, guess what God gave you that amazing body. Yes. And he gave you all those amazing functions. And guess what? It’s okay to enjoy what he gave you. Gissele : Yeah. And then you think that if we made like masturbation and all those things. Okay. Like if we, if there was a messaging then, then maybe people might be less likely to experiment with like penetration, maybe leading to less pregnancies. I think it would open up the likelihood that women are more likely to have full expressive orgasms and have those like great experience and probably lead to less risky behavior. I don’t know. What do you think? [00:36:00] Krysti Beckett: I think, I think maybe it’s a bold statement, but I think men would be too afraid of how powerful we would be if we had complete control and enjoyment of our bodies. It’s a bold statement, Gissele : You know, there’s lots of people talking about like, the key to manifesting is using the O method. Have you heard of that? Krysti Beckett: I have not heard Gissele : this. Using an, using an orgasm to manifest your Right. Well, you’re about to orgasm. You think about your manifestation. If you just Krysti Beckett: wanna manifest orgasms, can you start there? Gissele : Exactly. That was brilliant. I gotta take my hat off of that one. In terms of pelvic health, are you seeing sort of a shift in terms of people engaging in more conversations with less shame and guilt over their bodies? Krysti Beckett: I think once women become aware of what is normal and what is common, like leaking is common. But a healthy pelvic floor, [00:37:00] you can control, you can pee when you want to. And you can enjoy sex and live pain free pain is your alarm system, right? So once people kinda hear, oh, I can do something about this. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: I do find that more women are taking those steps to book their assessment with a pelvic physiotherapist to understand how they need to change some habits to feel better. And for some women it’s as simple as drinking more water. And for some women it is a little bit more work like doing the exercises. And of course there are still barriers, physiotherapy, like I said, it’s not covered in our healthcare system. And as a fitness professional, I can’t diagnose your symptoms. I can help you improve your symptoms with my knowledge, but I can’t do an internal exam or anything like that. [00:38:00] So there still are going to be barriers where women will just not have the money to go get an exam. But we do the best with what we can. And I’m really glad to see the conversation shift that women are open to having these discussions, that they’re open to saying, okay, yeah, I did have painful sex, or I am having painful sex. Mm-hmm. And I would, I would like to not like to actually enjoy it again. Gissele : Yeah. Do you find certain ages are more open and receptive to talk about things like pelvic health? Krysti Beckett: Yeah, there’s a lot of women I think in the childbearing ages because you do tend to talk about your symptoms a lot in the pre postpartum period with your healthcare professional. When women start to talk and compare their experiences, that’s happening a lot and I’m seeing it a lot now, [00:39:00] particularly in women over 40 in perimenopause, which is also something that was very taboo. We just kind of had these stories about what women did and how they acted in menopause and you feared them. They were angry women with hot flashes, right? Mm-hmm. But, but now we’re seeing more women come, come forward and talk about their experiences and. I think that’s not only changing our healthcare, but it’s changing our communities as women, because we need that connection. We need to support each other. Hmm. And you know, your body, you’re gonna have it your entire life. Right. We have to learn how, how to manage it. And so having these conversations can not only validate you in your experience, [00:40:00] but it can open up doors to find what can help you through your experience. And even if there isn’t a remedy, then maybe it can at least help you understand that, okay, this, this is normal and I can manage it. Gissele : as you were talking, I was reflecting on something you said. Which really stuck out to me, which is we used to have all this secrecy about our bodies but secrecy is what leads to abuse, right? Like keep it secret, don’t tell anyone. Whereas making it out in the open forming community like you are. Putting people together as a support system, I think goes a long way in helping us lift each other up and support each other through our most challenging circumstances. I think there we’re sort of in a epidemic of loneliness and isolation that people are feeling I have to suffer through this alone in these opportunities of bringing women together in conversation, in discussion, in support, I [00:41:00] think are so amazing and I think something that definitely should be done, especially about, what people consider taboo topics, right? Like pelvic health. Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And when you know you’re right, secrecy can contribute to abuse. Absolutely. But also when you are suffering with something in your body, and even if it involves absolutely no one else, keeping it to yourself, often spirals into shame. And I have had clients who stopped having sex with their partners because it was uncomfortable and they didn’t feel comfortable having that conversation with their partner. So they just stopped. And that created disconnect in their relationship. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Because it wasn’t just about being in the bedroom. Right. Sex and intimacy is not just physical, it’s about the relationship above and beyond that. Mm-hmm. You [00:42:00] know, when. The second leading cause of being put into a senior’s home is incontinence. The first is dementia and Alzheimer’s. Gissele : Really? Wow. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. So I mean, you’re, our health is incredibly intricate, but also so huge. Like it’s intricate in that there’s so many different things going on, so many systems and our bodies really are so amazing how they work for us every single day. But in that same token it is just one part of you. Like we are multifaceted beings and so Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Your mental health, your emotional health, your physical health, all of those. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Like those three categories even have like several subcategories. Your physical health, your pelvic health is not like independent of you. It’s connected. So if you [00:43:00] tend to clench your jaw, ’cause your stress relates to your pelvic health, and then maybe that’s causing your leaking or your pain, and then maybe that leaking your pain is stopping you from going out with the girls on Saturday night. And then that contributes to your mental health too, because you’re not connecting with your friends. So you’ve got like all these steps and they’re all connected because you yourself are a multifaceted being and you need. Not just physical care, but emotional care, mental care. And, and I think that’s another thing that we don’t do very well culturally, or at least I wasn’t raised that way, was to really look at you as a whole person. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, but that’s how the medical system is, right? Like, again, not to judge it, it has, does very like a number of things really well, which is deal with like sort of acute problems, right? Like you get a cut, you need pain meds. All of those are amazing, grateful to have it right, but it doesn’t do well [00:44:00] with chronic. and it’s all symptom management, right? I’m handling this symptom, but I might give you this pill for this other symptom. And sometimes like multiple pills you’re taking for this symptom and that symptom, it doesn’t treat historically the whole person, at least not the North American model. I know that models in other countries are different, so we’re seen as just body parts. Right. That we’re treating instead of seeing holistically the whole person. Right. What’s going on for you stress wise that might be leading to this particular physical reaction? like people acknowledge that there is the research out there to connects things like stress with heart disease But we are still sort of treated as limbs as part of a body instead of a whole being that has all of these social relationships. Was it you who was talking to me about like the doctors answer? if you’re a, a person who’s plus size, the doctor’s first answer is always lose weight. Krysti Beckett: Oh, yeah, Gissele : yeah, yeah. Okay. Share that story. That’s so [00:45:00] important. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. It’s very common, especially for women that if they go to their doctor with a health concern. And the doctor will usually go through a series of questions, do you do this? Do you do this? And usually if they can’t come up with a quick answer, they’re almost always the answer is just lose weight. And in my experience, I haven’t had my current doctor tell me that. But there was a conversation where I was struggling with low energy and we’re going through the markers. And now I was, I don’t remember how many months or years postpartum I was, but I was inexplicably tired. I was getting enough rest. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And at the time he’s, he said, well, let’s do some blood work. And when it came back, everything was like, textbook or better than textbook. And he said to me, your triglycerides are better than [00:46:00] textbook. And he’s like, did you forget to tell me about a medication you were on? And I was like did you not hear the part where I weight train and I teach five fitness classes a week? Like I’m incredibly active. It’s not abnormal for someone who’s physically active as me to have load triglycerides like that. They should be, you know? Yeah. But, but no, it was though, though, not a direct accusation, but I did feel as though he was saying that I had lied or failed to share some information. And I have had clients, you know, report things like neck or back pain and inexplicable. So they were told just lose weight. Where, you know, they are strength training, they’re walking, they’re doing whatever, and, mm-hmm. In one case, it was a client. She needed she finally got an MRI, she had degenerative discs. Something that cannot be fixed by dieting. So there’s, [00:47:00] there’s so many things out there, and unfortunately between pharmaceuticals, between the diet industry, which is often supported by pharmaceuticals our, our doctors are often kind of, that’s what they’re trained in. Yeah, Gissele : yeah, yeah. And like you said, as consumers, we should be looking for more holistic approaches in trying to find people that are creating the whole body and supporting the whole body. I love the idea of interprofessional workers together. Like I would want as a woman to have a pelvic health specialist with my gynecologist, with all of these different individuals working together to talk about. The whole me. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : Rather than having me go with all these different individuals separately and have to spend that money separately to come together to have, to figure out how to put all these plans together. [00:48:00] I think as a society, I’d hope that we move to having all of these individuals supporting the whole body, and also the need for physiotherapy and all of these other, additional therapies to be supported by our, healthcare. Mm-hmm. Like if we’re truly having inclusive healthcare, all of these options should be available. For individuals. Right. So I do hope that we get there. Krysti Beckett: I would love that too. I mean, if, if you have a good job with benefits, fortunately, you know, my husband’s benefits provide so much for us in that way. I’m able to have a lot of my physiotherapy, massage therapy, osteopathy, naturopathy chiropractor. Like there are lots of things that are covered. But again, that’s because of his work benefits. It’s not covered by our healthcare. Not yet anyways. Gissele : Right. And so if people don’t have work that provides those benefits, then who might you punish? Are you punishing people that are [00:49:00] more vulnerable that don’t have those, those that kind of employment that might be higher paying, better wages? So from that perspective, we have to wonder, ’cause I kind of have this belief that the quality of the government. Is demonstrated by its ability to take care of its most vulnerable citizens. Krysti Beckett: what an incredible place we would be in if, everyone made a living wage. Yeah. Gissele : Yeah. They talked about basic income, but I guess that went the way of the dodo. because the research on basic income. and there’s certain, European countries that do basic income and people that don’t need it actually say, oh, I don’t want it, right? Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : But they give it to the majority of their citizens. And people have a higher standard of living, more likely to be better educated. So people don’t use that just to sit around. Krysti Beckett: No. Gissele : Right. Like there’s this perception, the research and it was Canadian research [00:50:00] prove that people’s lives improve when they were outta survival and they had more income. And so there, there was a contemplation that it was something that they were considering applying. But then that just kind of quietly went away. At least here in Canada. But who knows? But yeah, it would be fabulous to have, those, those sort of options for different people. There’s also like countries that do away with homelessness by providing people homes, right? Yeah. They give people little tiny homes that they can have space and they’re more likely to then wanna take it to the next step in terms of getting jobs, getting off drugs, and all of those things. So I think when we, when we reach out and help people and see them as a whole being and care about their wellbeing, I think that’s what societies improve and get better about. Krysti Beckett: There’s really no downside to investing in people. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: I mean, I’m so grateful in Canada that [00:51:00] we have a mat leave, which Wow. Seems like, so in my mind, basic because. we’ve had it for so long. Yeah. But then when I take on a client from the states and they tell me that Gissele : Yeah, Krysti Beckett: at the most, at the most they get 12 weeks. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And a lot of it depends on either what state you’re in or what your employer allows. It may or may not be paid. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: But wow. Like in one case I was supporting a mom, a c-section after twins, and she was going back at 12 weeks postpartum as a neonatal nurse. So she’s leaving her babies behind to go take care of other babies. Meanwhile, she’s had major abdominal surgery and she’s gonna be on her feet for like, 12 hour [00:52:00] shifts. So she needs her body. And here like. Their system was not supporting her. So I just feel so grateful for where we live and that we, you know, even as a self-employed person, I didn’t get a mat leave for my third birth, mm-hmm. But I still had culturally here, the understanding that I was postpartum, I was stepping back, I was doing things differently and I was well supported during that time. Yeah. You know, by family, by clients. You know, certainly the respect of understanding that that was happening, no expectation for me to rush back into things. Mm-hmm. But like, what a different world we would be in if we, if we set kind of those bare minimums, those standards of taking care of people. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was thinking about the time when I had my first baby and I returned back to work, it was [00:53:00] like. Like you opened up floodgates. I was crying all the time. I was crying at work. This was a year after, like Right. I had been for a whole year with my baby. Right. I can’t even imagine having, giving birth. And then a few weeks later it just like, well, okay, I gotta go. Oh my God. I think I, I think I might’ve quit.So a couple of more questions. I ask all my guests what their definition of unconditional love is. Krysti Beckett: Ah, unconditional love is being able to give when you are at Any season really at your absolute worst, at your absolute best, but being able to still give no matter what kind of resources you have. Gissele : Hmm. Krysti Beckett: [00:54:00] Emotional or other. Gissele : Hmm. Thank you for that. So last question. Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Tell us about your website, anything you wanna share with the audience? Krysti Beckett: Sure. Yeah. My website is http://www.theconfidentmama.ca and I have a blog and I have free core guides and things like that. You can always message me for a free consult. I love meeting people. I love chatting about health and, and whether it’s working with me or just getting connected to somebody that can help you. I really do love having those conversations. I am on social media and LinkedIn, so if you’re looking for the Confident Mama and yeah, and if you’re in Southwestern Ontario yeah, hit me up. Brant Burford. I’m often in Kitchener and gray Bruce area and Niagara Gissele : Do you support people in both the physical activity part and the pelvic health as well? Krysti Beckett: Yes. So I’m a personal [00:55:00] trainer with pelvic fitness specialty, so whether virtual or in person, I offer coaching and personal training, so I work one-on-one. I also have fitness classes here in Burford. But if, if somebody needs help getting started or doing something differently in their fitness, I certainly can help them with an exercise program. Or if they just need coaching so that they can feel better in their bodies, feel more confident make their health a priority, then I’m your gal. Gissele : Oh, amazing. Thank you so much, Krysti for such an awesome conversation. I’m so, so excited for our listeners to, to listen to this conversation because we’ve been talking about things that have been taboo and haven’t really been talked about. So thank you so much for being on the show, and please join us for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Krysti Beckett: Thanks. Have a good night. Gissele : Bye.

Welcome to the Nothing Shocking Podcast episode 306 with our guest Mark Gane of Martha and the Muffins.  We discuss his first solo album Garden Music, recent M + M  reissues and more!   For More Information: https://markgane.bandcamp.com/album/garden-music http://marthaandthemuffins.com/ http://marthaandthemuffins.com/mark-gane-art/mark-gane-art.html   Please like our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/nothingshockingpodcast/  Follow us on X at  https://twitter.com/hashtag/noshockpod.   Libsyn website: https://nothingshocking.libsyn.com For more info on the Hong Kong Sleepover: https://thehongkongsleepover.bandcamp.com Help support the podcast and record stores by shopping local at   Big Stricks Vinyl Records and Sports Cards - https://www.facebook.com/p/Big-Stricks-LLC-61560351678007/

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You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Educational Psychologist Liz Angoff. We discuss when and why a child might need an assessment, what information you get from an assessment, how to help children understand their brains and diagnosis, and celebrating neurodiversity.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:00 What are some signs that your child should get an assessment?* 9:00 Getting to the “why” and the “so what”* 10:00 What do you assess for?* 14:00 Why it is important to get an assessment?* 23:00 Should you tell your child about their diagnosis?* 31:00 Scripts and metaphors for talking to your kids about diagnosis* 39:00 Red and Green flags with clinicians* 44:00 Celebrating neurodiversityResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Dr. Liz's website and booksxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERESarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today my guest is Dr. Liz Angoff, who is an educational psychologist. She does testing, looking at helping kids understand how their brain works and helping their adults understand how their children's brains work. She has loads of wonderful resources, which we will link to in the show notes.I love how Dr. Liz takes this approach. It's about how our brains can work in different ways, and understanding that really can help our child understand themselves, and help us understand our child in a better way.As you'll hear in this conversation with Dr. Liz, she really talks about how, if your child is experiencing some challenges or struggles—or you're experiencing struggles or challenges with them—it can be helpful to get an assessment and possibly a diagnosis to understand exactly what's going on and how your child's brain works. Whether it could be anxiety or depression or neurodivergence or learning challenges or any sorts of things that can be uncovered through psychological testing, you can really understand the differences in your child's brain that could be making life feel more challenging for them and/or for you. And she has a beautifully neurodiversity-affirming lens, where she talks about—you'll hear her talk about this in the episode—looking at a child's brain in terms of both the strengths and the challenges.As always, we would love if you would share this episode with anyone you think might find it useful, and leave us a five-star rating on your favorite podcast player app and leave us a review. It really helps us reach more families and therefore help more families.Alright, let's meet Dr. Liz.Hello, Dr. Liz. Welcome to the podcast.Liz: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here, Sarah.Sarah: Me too. So tell us about who you are and what you do before we dive in.Liz: Right. Well, I go by Dr. Liz, and I am a licensed educational psychologist. I'm in the Bay Area, California, and my focus—my passion—is working with kids to understand how their brains work. I am a testing psychologist, so I do assessment to understand, when things are challenging for kids, why things are challenging and what we're going to do to really support them.But one of the things that really caught my interest a number of years ago is that so often we bring kids through the assessment process and we don't talk to them about what they did or what we learned about them. So I got really passionate about talking to kids directly about how they can understand their brains—what comes easily for them, how they can really use their strengths to help them thrive, and then what's challenging and what they can do to advocate for themselves and support themselves. So all of my work has been really focused on that question: how do we help kids understand themselves?Sarah: Which is perfect, because that's exactly why I wanted to have you on. I've had so many parents ask me, “Well, how do I… I've got the assessment. How do I tell them? Do I tell them? How do I tell them?” We're going to get into all of that.But first I want to start with: what are some signs… I imagine some of the people listening are already going to have had assessments or are in the process of getting an assessment. But there also are some people who maybe—at least in our world—what we look at is: if you feel like you're struggling way more than everybody else, that could be one sign. And if you've already made shifts and you're trying to practice, in our case, peaceful parenting, and you're still finding that things are really hard—that could be a sign that you might want to get an assessment.But what are some signs that you look for that you might want to get your child assessed?Liz: Yeah, I mean, you named a couple of them that I think are actually really important. All kids have times when they struggle. Growing up is hard. There are a lot of challenges, and they're really important challenges that kids face. They need to know that it's okay when things are hard. They need to know they can do hard things and come out the other side.And there's so much out there—what I think of as parenting 101—that helps us figure out: how do we help our children navigate these tough times? And then there's kind of the next level where you might get a little extra support. So you read a book on parenting, or you find a different approach that matches the way your child shows up in the world a little bit better. You might meet with the school and get a little bit of extra help—sometimes called student study teams or SSTs—where you might meet with the teacher and the team.For most kids, that little extra boost is enough to get them through those hard times. But for some kids, there are still questions. That next level, that extra support—it's still not working. Things are still hard, and we don't know why.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Liz: And when you have that question—“Why isn't this working? It works for so many kids, but it's not working for my child”—that's when an assessment can be really helpful to get at the why. The so what.So the why is: why are things harder for my child, and why are the traditional things that help most children not working? And then the so what is: so what do we do about it? How do we do things differently? And for kids who are wired differently, they need different things. And that's what we focus on in the assessment process.Sarah: And so, what kinds of… You know, we've gotten extra support, we've educated ourselves, and things are still hard for our child—or maybe also hard for us at home with our child. What are the kinds of things that you assess for? I guess that's the best way to ask. The big ones I think about are ADHD and autism, but what else might be possibilities that are going on?Liz: I really think of assessment—at the core of it—as understanding how this child's brain works. The diagnoses that we look at… a diagnosis is just a kind of way to orient us toward the path of support that's going to be most helpful. But even ADHD, autism, dyslexia—these common things we might look for—show up differently in different kids. There are diagnostic criteria, but they mix and match a little bit. No two ADHD-ers show up the same way. No two autistic kids show up the same way. Even dyslexic kids show up differently.So at the core of it, we're trying to figure out: what makes this child's brain unique? What are the unique strengths and challenges that they have? And we're going to be able to explain that. A shortcut for explaining that might be dyslexia or autism or ADHD.We also might be looking at things like anxiety and depression that can really affect kids in a big way—sometimes related to other brain styles, because navigating the world as a different kind of brain is really hard and can lead to a lot of anxiety and depression. Sometimes anxiety can look like ADHD, for example, because it really hijacks your attention and makes it hard to sit still at school when your brain is on high alert all the time.So we're really trying to tease apart: what's the root cause of the challenges a child is facing? So that we know what to do about it.Some other things we might look at: one of the big questions that comes to me is when there are some really challenging behaviors that kids have, and we want to know what's underneath that. Sometimes there might be questions about sensory dysregulation or emotional dysregulation—just real difficulty understanding the emotions that are coming up and what to do about them. Some kids get hit like by a tsunami by their emotions. And so learning how to regulate or manage those big feelings might be something we're looking at. And again, that might be part of a bigger diagnosis, but more importantly it's something we want to understand so we can support a child, regardless of what we call it.Sarah: That makes so much sense. And it makes me think about my daughter, who's 18 now. And just for anyone listening, she's okay with me talking about her assessment and diagnoses. And I think sometimes when you talk about challenging behavior, we think we know why there's challenging behavior—but sometimes we can be totally wrong.I remember when she was in elementary school, her teachers—one after another—would always talk about how she was repeatedly at their desks asking, “What do I do next?” Asking for instruction. And she's a kid whose connection is super important to her, and I always thought it was because she was looking for more connection from the teacher. That she was always at their side, and that was a “good” reason to go up and talk to the teacher because she loved her teachers.And then come to find out, when we had her assessed, that she has working memory challenges. She actually literally couldn't remember what the next thing to do was, because she could only keep one or two things in her head at a time. And that was really helpful information. It completely shifted how her teachers—and how I—saw her classroom behavior.Liz: Isn't that amazing? Just getting at the why. Getting underneath and figuring out the why completely shifts our perspective on things. And I think for a lot of kids, that first-line parenting—for many kids, yeah, they're looking for connection. They're looking for that. It makes total sense that that would be our first assumption. And for some kids, that's just not true.So when we do the assessment, we find out this important information that is so important to understanding what's going on. And for your daughter to understand: “Oh, there's this thing called working memory, and that is different in my brain than in other brains.” So I'm not dumb or lazy or all these labels we give ourselves. It's: “Oh, I have a working memory challenge, so let's brainstorm some ways I can work with the way my working memory works.” And that might be asking the teacher—that might work for everybody—but there might be something else.There are any number of strategies we can use to really help her once we know what that is. And when we talk to kids about it, we can brainstorm with them to figure out what the best strategy is going to be—one that works for our child, that works for the teacher, that works for everybody involved.Sarah: Yeah, for sure. It's so illuminating. There were so many things about her diagnosis when she got assessed that helped so much to explain behavior that a lot of people found perplexing, and also helped her understand herself and make adjustments she needed to make to be successful.For example, even now she's in first-year college, and she knows—this has continued through her whole school career—that because of her focus challenges, she can't really do any homework after six o'clock at night. Her focus is just not good. She can try, but it's really hard for her. So she plans her day around: “I know that I've only got until six o'clock to really get my good work done.” She'll even come home, do homework, and then go back into the city to go to the gym or something, whereas other people might do it the other way around.So I think just knowing—kids knowing—how their brain works is really setting themselves up for success.Liz: I love that.Sarah: Yeah. So, which brings me to the next question I was going to ask you, and I think you've already answered it or we've talked about it together: anything you want to add about why it's important to get an assessment? I mean, you talked about helping kids understand how their brain works, really getting to the root of the problem, and helping the people around them understand how their brain works. Is there anything else you want to add about why we would want to get an assessment that we haven't already talked about?Liz: Yeah. Well, one of the things we talk about a lot is that an assessment can result in a label of sorts. A diagnosis is a kind of label. And something I get asked a lot is: “What do we do when parents feel nervous about having their child have a label?”There is—as much as I am a proponent and supporter and celebrator of neurodiversity—the truth is that our society still has some pretty challenging stereotypes about what it means to be ADHD or autistic, or to have a different way your brain is wired.Sarah: Or stigma.Liz: Yeah—stigma. That's the word. And so I think it's a real fear that families have.There are a couple of things that are important to know about these “labels.” One is that the world is changing. We are understanding these diagnoses in a totally different way—not as something that's broken or needs to be fixed, but as something that is different. A normal variation of how brains appear in the world. And that is a real change that is happening.And that label can be—as you were just saying—so helpful, as a way to guide what we do to support our children so they can be successful. Like your example with your daughter: she can learn how to work with her brain so she can be really successful. I think it's brilliant that she knows that after six o'clock, her brain won't study anymore. That simple change is the difference between feeling like a failure and feeling like a success.And I think the more dangerous thing—the scarier piece—is the labels we give children who aren't properly diagnosed. Those labels are the ones kids give themselves, like “I must be dumb,” or the labels others give kids, like “This is a lazy child,” or “This is a defiant child.” Those labels are so much more negative and harmful to our kids because they tell them there's something wrong with them.Are these diagnoses labels? Yes. But I would argue they are such helpful guideposts for us in understanding: this is a difference, not a deficiency.Sarah: I love that. And I've heard people say that you can avoid getting a diagnosis for your child because you don't want to have them labeled, but they will still get labeled—just with the wrong labels instead of the right labels.Liz: Exactly. Yeah.Sarah: Mm-hmm. I know people who… I have a friend who didn't find out until they were in their late teens, I guess, that they had inattentive ADHD, and they spent years unlearning, “I'm just lazy,” and, “I'm a lazy person, that's why I have trouble doing things on time,” and really unlearning that bad… that bad idea of themselves that had been put on them when they weren't aware of their inattentive ADHD.Liz: Exactly.Sarah: Yeah. I also have another friend who got diagnosed as autistic late in life, and they wish that they had known that so much earlier because they spent—you know, they're one of those people that, back when they were a child, the diagnostic criteria missed them. Right? Like they were just quirky, odd, like the little-professor type of autistic kid. But they spent their whole life thinking, “There's something wrong with me. I just don't know what it is, but I know I feel different from everybody else,” and searching for, “What is this thing that's wrong with me?” And finding it in all sorts of things that weren't actually… you know, obviously there's not anything wrong with them, they're just autistic. But thinking how different their life would've been if they had known that, and hadn't spent all those years trying to figure out why they felt so different from everybody else.Liz: Exactly. And that's what the research is showing us too—that so many individuals who are diagnosed as adults had these really harmful and unhelpful narratives as kids. And the first emotion that those diagnosed adults feel is this relief: “Oh, that's why things feel different for me.” But the second emotion I find so much more interesting, because across the board, the second thing that people report is anger. And it's anger at having lost decades to those false narratives that were so, so unhelpful.And I think that there are kind of two facets to my passion about talking to kids. One was understanding that kids—they often know that something is different about them way before we even pick up on it, no matter how old they are. They have this sense that, “Oh, I'm walking through the world in a different way.” So the earlier we can have these conversations with them, the better, because we have this opportunity to rewrite that narrative for them.But the second huge piece for me was working with adults and doing that later-in-life diagnosis, and hearing time after time, story after story about adults who are completely rewriting their self-narrative through the process of our assessment—and what a relief that is. And how frustrating it is that they've lost so much time not knowing, and now having to go through the process of identity formation again, because they have this new, critical piece of information that helps them understand things so differently about their childhood, their young adulthood—depending on how old they are.Sarah: Yeah, it's so important. And when you just said, “Kids often know that there's something different about them,” I remembered my daughter. She didn't—I think partly because I'm, I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but I'm an extraordinarily patient person, and so some of the things about her ADHD—so she has an ADHD diagnosis—and some of the things about that, I think it took me a long time to sort of think, “Okay, this is unusual, that these behaviors are still happening,” because I was so patient with it, you know? And I think other parents may have been a little less patient at an earlier age and gotten her… and I feel bad about that, because I wish she had gotten her assessment earlier. I think it would've been helpful for her.But I remember one thing that spurred me to finally seek an assessment was she asked me what ADHD was. She was probably nine, ten, maybe. And I told her, and she said, “I have that.” She was like, “I have that.” And I'm like, “Really?” Like, you know… anyway, it was just interesting.Liz: I think kids know. I've had that experience so many times, I can't even tell you. I'm halfway through a feedback session with a child and I haven't told them yet, and they come out with, “Do I have ADHD?” Or in the middle of the assessment, they're wondering about it and asking. And I say, “Well, what do you understand about ADHD, and why are you asking that question?” And I can kind of get more information from them and let them know, “We don't know yet, but that's what we're here for. We're exploring your brain and we're trying to understand it.”But I think that information, I mean, that just speaks to how much our world is changing. This information is out there in the world. We're talking about it, which I think is so, so important to normalizing the fact that brains come in all different shapes and sizes and ways of being. And so it becomes a point of discussion—like a really open point of discussion—about, “I wonder how my brain is wired.”Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So interesting. I'm pretty sure I know the answer that you're gonna give: if you do get a diagnosis of something—ADHD or autism—should you tell your child?Liz: So I do believe that we should be talking to kids about how their brains work. And I want to be really mindful of the parent journey as I talk about this. I think that the most important piece is that, as a parent, you understand how your child's brain works, and that you go through your own process of integrating that with how you see your child. And that's a really important journey and a huge piece of the journey, because when we start talking to kids about how their brains work, we need to be really confident as adults.So I think that while I see this as so important—talking to kids about their diagnosis—I want to make sure that parents are taking time and space to understand it themselves first.Sarah: I love that. That's such a sensitive answer, because if, say, you get the diagnosis of your child and to you it feels like, you know, it's this horrible thing—that would not be a good frame of mind to tell your child about their diagnosis in. Right? So really working through your own fears and your own… getting proper information about what the diagnosis means before you go to your child with that information.Liz: Exactly. And understanding what it means and what it doesn't mean. Because there's a lot of messages out there, especially around autism and ADHD, that are negative: that your child is broken in some way, we need to fix them, we need to make them more “normal,” whatever that means. I mean, all these messages are not helpful, not accurate. So really diving into the neurodiversity-affirming framework around these different neurotypes or brain types is a really important piece to give yourself time to process as a parent.That said, I do think that being able to have a really supportive conversation with your child about, “What did we learn about the assessment?”—you know, we already talked about that kids know something's different about them before we know. And so when they go through the assessment process, there's no hiding from them that we're doing something different for you. And they're the ones that go through all these different activities as part of the assessment; they're working very hard.And I, as an assessor, I'm very transparent with kids: “We're here to understand how your brain works,” because I was trained to tell kids, “We're going to play a lot of brain games, and it's going to be super fun, you'll get prizes.” Which it is fun until we do the thing that's hard for you. And then suddenly, it's not fun anymore. And kids are like, “Huh, I feel like you're not telling me the whole truth. This is not fun.” They pick up on it, right?So I tend to be really transparent with kids: “We're here to understand how your brain works. Some of the things that we do, your brain is going to find fun and maybe even easy to do. Some of the things are really going to challenge your brain. You might learn something new while you're here. If something's challenging, I want you to tell me about it, and we're going to figure it out together—like, ooh, that's going to be really interesting.”So we're already talking to kids about what's strong. And I use a construction metaphor that I can go into, but we talk about their brain highways and we talk about their construction projects—what they're working on. So kids are already learning so much about their brain as part of the assessment. And even without sharing the diagnosis, we can talk to them about what we learned, so that there's some de-mystifying there. “I went through this whole thing and now everyone's talking behind my back. They're having a bunch of meetings. There must be something wrong with me.” Instead, we can say, “I learned so many cool things about your brain. I learned that you are strong in this, and I learned that we're going to work on this. And so that's really helpful for me as a parent.”And then if we do have a diagnosis, what it adds when we share that with kids is: they know that they are not alone. It gives context. It lets them know that while the way their brain works is unique, there are lots of people out there who have very similar brains, who have been really successful with that kind of brain. There's a path laid out—that we know what to do to work with your unique brain. And so it really helps them feel like, “I'm not alone in this. It's not weird or broken in any way. This is just a different way to be in the world, and there's a roadmap for me.”Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I often, when I'm talking to parents, and you know, often after a couple of parent coaching sessions there'll be some things that make me say, “Have you ever… has anyone ever asked you if you were considering an ADHD assessment for your child?” I try to… you know, because I'm not a clinician, I can't diagnose anyone with anything. But there are certainly things that come up that make me think, “I think these people should get an assessment.”And often they— you know, I try to be really as positive as I can—but often they do have these really negative associations with, for example, ADHD. And then I say, like, “You know, how many entrepreneurs… there are way more entrepreneurs that have ADHD than the general population, and way more Olympic athletes and professional athletes.” And, you know, there are things that are just research- and statistic-backed that you can say that are positive about this differently wired brain.Liz: Right. I love the research on entrepreneurship and ADHD. I think that it's so amazing how well-equipped the ADHD brain is to be in a space where we're disrupting the status quo and trying new things, thinking outside of the box, really using that creativity. And it's just a world that needs this kind of brain to really move us forward. More neurotypical brains that work well with the way that society is built might not be as motivated to disrupt things in that positive way that moves us forward.Sarah: I love that. What are some other things that—you know, I feel like we've kind of covered most of the questions that I had planned on asking you—but are there any things that I haven't asked you or that we haven't touched on? You know, you've modeled some really beautiful ways of how to talk to your child about how their brain works. Maybe you want to go into your construction metaphor a little bit more, or maybe there are some other things that we haven't covered that you want to talk about.Liz: Sure. Well, I think that one of the things that may be really helpful is thinking about: what is the script for telling kids about their diagnosis? The way that I've found most helpful is using this construction metaphor, because it is pretty universal and it has so many places you can go with it, and it just gives you a way to start the conversation.For parents, it may sound something like: “You went through this whole process and I'm so grateful that you did, because we were able to learn some really cool things about your brain. Is it okay if I share that with you?” So asking that permission to start the conversation, because it is vulnerable for kids. You want to make sure that it's the right time and place. And most of the time, opening it like that will pique kids' curiosity, and they're like, “Yeah, of course, I want to know what you learned.”And then you might say, “You know, I learned that we can think of your brain like something that's under construction, like the construction sites we see on the side of the road—that we're always building our brain. And the way your brain works is that the different parts of your brain communicate through these neurons that make connections, like little tiny roads in your brain. And we learned that some of those roads are like highways for your brain. We learned that you have so many strengths.”“So, for example, we learned that you maybe have a great vocabulary and really express yourself well. We learned about your creativity, and when you're really passionate about something, you can focus in so amazingly well on that. We learned that you're a really loyal friend, or maybe that you have a really strong memory for stories”—you know, whatever it is. “We learned that you have these highways.”“We also know that some parts of your brain are under construction. Like, you might remember when you were little, you didn't know how to ride a bike yet, but then your brain had to put all those things together and now you ride your bike all the time. Do you remember kind of building that road? Well, there are some new roads that we're working on. And so we might be working on… one of the things we learned that's under construction for your brain is something called working memory. And I think that's why you're asking your teacher all the time for the next step—because you're doing something, you're advocating for yourself, because your brain does best when it gets one piece of information at a time. And that was so important for me to learn as a parent.”“And when we put these things together, lots of people have highways and construction zones just like yours. In fact, we have a name for it. We call that ADHD—when you have such a creative, passionate brain that loves to focus on the things that you are really into, but sometimes have difficulty keeping stuff in mind, this working memory piece—that's what we call ADHD. And it turns out there are lots and lots of people who have ADHD brains just like yours, and we can look at those people.”So that's kind of how I go through it with kids. We're really talking about their highways and construction projects and helping them understand that—and then repackaging it with that name for it. That there's a name for how your brain works. And that's where we start. And then from there, we can use that metaphor to keep building the next thing, working on the next construction project as we move forward.Sarah: Would there be anything specifically different or similar, I guess, about talking about an autism diagnosis for kids with that construction metaphor?Liz: Yeah, so I use the same metaphor, but the highways and construction zones, for every kid, are going to be a little different. So for an autistic kid—if I think of one kid in particular—we might say that we learned that you have this really passionate brain that loves engineering and building, and the things you did with Dr. Liz where you had to solve puzzles and use logic, that was a highway in your brain. And we know that one of the ways that your brain works really well is when you have space to move and to be able to use your body in different ways.Then some of the things that might be under construction are… usually I'll start with something that a child has told me is more challenging for him or her. “So you know how you said that sometimes other kids might say things that feel confusing, or you're not sure what they mean? That's something that might be harder for your brain—or something that is a construction project that we'll work on with you, so that it's easier to understand other kids.”“And when we put these things together—when kids have brains that are really passionate and pay attention to details, that love engineering, but have trouble figuring out what other kids are saying or meaning—then we call that autism. And it's a different way of a brain being in the world. And so, as you learn to work with your autistic brain, you'll figure out how to really dive deep into your passions and you'll be able to thrive, find the connections that you want, and we're here to help.”Sarah: I love that. And I love how, when you talk about construction zones, it's full of promise too, right? I read something from someone… that you can work on things—what I mean by full of promise is that there are things that can be worked on that might feel hard or confusing now, but it doesn't leave a child with a sense of, “I'll never be able to figure it out, and it's always going to be this way.”Liz: Yeah. One of the ways the construction metaphor has really evolved is that for some things, we're building that road, and for some things, we're finding a different way to get there. One of the things that I write in my books is that you might build a road there, or you might find a totally different way to get there. In the new book for parents, there's a picture of a flying car, you know, kind of flying over the construction zone. And I think that it's really true for our kids that for some skills, there might be some things that we need to learn and really build that pathway in our brain, but for some things, there might just be a different way.I think for autistic kids, for example, they might connect with others in really different ways. And so it's like building a totally new way to get there—building a different road, taking the scenic route. There are so many ways we can adapt the metaphor to say, “We're still going to get you to your goal, where you want to go, but your road might look really different than somebody else's, and that's okay. It's going to be the best road for you.”Sarah: I love that, because it also—I mean, not only is it promising that you're going to get to where you want to go, but it also, I think, helps relieve parents of an idea that I see sometimes, where they want their kids to be more like neurotypical kids, right? They think that's the only way to get to the goal, is for them to have, you know, just using the example of social connections: the social connections of an autistic kid might be really, really strong but look totally different from the social connections of a neurotypical kid.Liz: Exactly. Yeah.Sarah: That reminds me of something that I was going to ask you earlier and I forgot, which was: you mentioned that sometimes when you get a diagnosis, you have a clinician who wants to try to tell you how you should change your child, or help them be more “normal” or more “typical,” and that clearly would be from somebody who's not very neurodiversity-affirming. But what are some things to look out for that might be sort of, I guess, red flags or green flags in terms of the person that you're looking for to do an assessment—or if you've already got the assessment, how they're interpreting the diagnosis—that might be more or less helpful?Liz: Yeah. So I love this question, because I think one of the most important questions you can ask a clinician when you are looking for an assessment is: “How do you involve my child in the assessment?” Or, “What will you tell them about what you learned?” Looking for somebody who is really well-versed in, “How do I talk to the child about it?” is going to tell you that they're really thinking about, “How do we frame this in a way that's going to be helpful and affirming to a young child?”Because anybody who's really thinking about, “How do I communicate this in a way that's going to make sense to a small person?” has really been thinking about, “How do we think about the whole person, and how do we capitalize on those strengths?” So that is kind of a tell, to say that this person is thinking in this more holistic way—and not just about, “Does this child fit the diagnostic criteria?”If you've had an assessment with somebody that is more coming from that medical lens that we've all been trained in—this is so new, and so, you know, a lot of clinicians were trained from this medical lens, which is looking at, “What are the child's deficits, and do they meet criteria from this diagnostic manual that we have, the DSM, that is a list of things that are harder or quote-unquote wrong?”—from there, I think really getting connected with some more affirming resources is important.I have a ton on my website that can be really, really helpful. There's a spreadsheet of ways of talking about autism, ADHD, dyslexia, behavior, anxiety, OCD in really affirming ways. And so just immersing yourself in those resources so you can get that positive language for talking to your child. Or working with the next practitioner—a therapist, a tutor—who has experience working from a neurodiversity-affirming lens, so that you can help to translate those testing results into something that's going to really be focused on: how do we help your child thrive with the brain that they have?Sarah: Thank you. That makes so much sense.This has been so helpful, and I think that so many parents are going to find this really useful—in how to talk to their kids and how to think about it, how to think about it themselves. What it… oh, it has just totally thrown me that I couldn't remember that thing. All right. So thank you so much for joining us and telling us about all this stuff. You mentioned a couple of books, so we'll get your books in the show notes for folks, but where else is the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do?Liz: Yeah, so I have a ton of free resources for parents on explainingbrains.com. There are articles—just very, very short, parent-friendly articles—with both the strengths, the “highways,” and common construction projects for ADHD brains, for autistic brains, for dyslexic brains, for kids who have difficulty regulating behavior, anxiety, intellectual disability—just ways of explaining so many different types of brains, as well as what we do about things like screen time or talking about medication. So hopefully that resource is helpful for parents.And then I have a brand-new book out for parents called Our Brains, and it is an interactive, collaborative workbook that helps you explain a diagnosis to your child. So it's something that you can get after an assessment, and it will walk you through explaining to your child how their brain works, what you learned from the assessment. Or, if you have a diagnosis that's been on the table for a long time and you just haven't had that conversation with them yet, it is designed to really help kids not just know, “Okay, this is my diagnosis,” but really understand how their brain works and how they can advocate for what their brain needs to thrive.Sarah: Fantastic. That is going to be so helpful for so many parents. Okay, now here's the mystery question that I told you about before we started recording, and this is a question I ask all my guests. So, if you had a time machine and you could go back in time and give a message to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Liz: Oh. I would just constantly remind myself that there are so many ways to be in this world, and it's all okay. I think—even I was amazed—that even as somebody who has decades of experience in this field and has made a life out of celebrating neurodiversity, there was a way that doctors communicated with me from this deficit lens that would just put my mommy brain on high alert all the time when something was just a little bit different. And I really needed just constant reminders that my child is going to show up how they're going to show up, and that that is not only okay, but it is beautiful and amazing and so important to how they are and the unique contribution they're going to have to this world.And it's something that I've grown into—my child's seven and a half now—and it's something that we get to celebrate all the time: incredible uniqueness, and celebrate. But I think I remember very distinctly as a new mom, just with all the doctors using their jargony, deficit-based language, it was just really hard to keep that solid head on my shoulders. But I think it's a really important message to keep with us: that there's just so many ways to be, and it's all amazing.Sarah: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us, and really appreciate it.Liz: Thank you for having me. This has been a blast. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Do you enjoy property management? It's often a thankless industry, and it's easy for property management business owners and their team members to become unhappy and burnt out. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Ashleigh Goodchild, the voice behind PM Collective, to explore what it really takes to build a property management career that you can enjoy. You'll Learn [01:06] Importance of Having Support  [08:01] Community-Led Learning for Property Managers [15:07] Structured Management vs. Random Leadership [21:36] People-Centric Property Management [32:41] Making the Invisible Visible Quotables "There's so much help available out there. And a lot of times we just don't ask as entrepreneurs." "The slowest path to growth is to do it alone." "A lot of people don't actually see what we do. And I think that's where you've got the opportunity." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Ashleigh Goodchild (00:00) Generally churn rate and loss rate for businesses can range anywhere between 15 and 30%. Our office is sitting at about 5%. we've got 1200 doors, to have that 5 % churn rate actually considered really great. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (00:05) Yeah. Welcome everybody. I am Jason Hull, the owner and founder of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. We've talked to thousands of property managers, helped them add hundreds of doors, help them increase profit, simplify operations, get themselves out of the business more and more. And we believe the good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. We are on a mission to transform property management business owners. and their businesses. want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. So my guest today is Ashleigh Goodchild. Welcome. She's the voice behind PM Collective, the art of property management. together, we're going to explore what it really takes to build a property management career that you can enjoy covering the balance between structured management and random leadership, how to create workplaces people actually want to stay in, and Ashleigh's vision for a more human, less transactional industry. So Ashleigh, welcome to the show. Ashleigh Goodchild (01:35) Thank you so much for having me. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (01:37) So let's give us a little bit of background on you for those that don't know you yet, that maybe you're listening. How did you get into entrepreneurism? How did you get into doing what you're doing now? Give us some of the backstory. Ashleigh Goodchild (01:52) Yeah, so I started real estate back when I was 18 and like many people just falling into it and I was placed into an office that had a business owner, one was an air hostess and one was a pilot and really had no idea of how to run the business. So at that age of 18 and not knowing any better, I just jumped straight into the business and started helping them quite a lot. And then As I went on in my career, I then started my business, SoCo Realty, when I was 23. So I've had that business for 20 years and I've had a very blessed property management and business ownership life. I do say though that when I was 23 and when I started the business, I don't think it would have mattered what I was doing. It wasn't actually about the property management. It was actually probably about business ownership that I was drawn to. And I think I always say, even if I was a hairdresser at 23, it would have been a hairdresser shop that I opened up, just happened to be working in property management. So I've been running that and I've had a very blessed property management life. I always feel a little bit guilty when people talk about the roller coaster of their property management businesses, because I don't feel like I've had that. Or if I have, I sort of feel like maybe I just didn't sweat the small stuff. And so that led me into... Jason Hull - DoorGrow (02:50) Yeah. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (03:10) running and founding PM Collective, which was bringing in a peer-to-peer mentorship and training Australia-wide where we run 200 coffee and conversations every year. And we really support each other in the industry just by that casual learning from each other. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (03:27) That's awesome. So they're getting together, hanging out with each other, sharing ideas, and you're kind of the facilitator in this. Ashleigh Goodchild (03:35) Yeah, we do it Australia wide. have loads of hosts around Australia. So other people like myself who want to give back. So it's a great opportunity for people to give back. We've actually run a couple over in the US as well. And we have just had one in New Zealand. So the idea is that it allows people in the industry who have been in for a long time, like I said, to give back to the industry and help the the younger ones that are coming in to really learn to enjoy the career as well. So it's really great. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (04:04) Yeah, you know, it's amazing how much help is available and how willing people are to help. Yeah, I'm reading a book right now by Simon Squibb, I believe is his name, something like that. And it's it's about like following your dream and having a dream. But he said he created an organization that. I guess over in the UK, but he created this organization that allowed people to either help. fun people's dreams or for people to get their dreams launched. And he said that they had way more people. He thought everybody would be wanting to get the dream and their own dream met. He said they had way more people offering to help those that had a dream. And so, and he was talking about how much help is available. So. There's so much help available out there. And a lot of times we just don't ask as entrepreneurs. know, there's this funny thing that when we start out as an entrepreneur, we've kind of come through this whole world where we're such a minority, because most people on the planet are not entrepreneurial currently. And so we get a lot of feedback that we're weird or that we're different or that we're strange. And so we learn to kind of isolate. We start to recognize, I'm different and there isn't a lot of help or support. which is kind of an inaccurate viewpoint, but we kind of view ourselves as an island. And then we start our journey as an entrepreneur and we usually think we're gonna do it all ourselves. We're gonna read the right books and watch YouTube videos and we wear it as a badge of honor. I'm gonna get this thing started and do it all alone. that's, as I say at the end of my podcast each episode, that's the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. Ashleigh Goodchild (05:40) I think as well, like we find that a lot of people are really great at their jobs. They're either, you know, great property managers, great BDMs, and they have people around them that say, you know, you're so good at what you do, you should go open up your own business. And I don't think people actually realize there is, it can be really hard to start your business. I mean, you've got the logistics side of things, but you just assume the phone's going to keep calling and start calling as soon as you're out on your own. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (06:02) Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (06:09) And I think that that's one of the biggest things that I see people underestimate. And so to be able to give them that support and not be forced to sell their business because it's just got too stressful. I've got one of my clients where she had her own property management business when she was in her twenties. And she ended up selling it because it was just too much to handle at that age. She didn't have the support, you know, 10, 15 years ago. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (06:14) Yeah. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (06:36) And I remember her saying, I wish PM Collective was around because I wouldn't have sold my business. But now I can have the stamina for my business because I've got that support around me. So I think that that's where I'm seeing a really big gap. people who think, you know, people who are great at their job, which means that they think they're going to be great at business ownership, which is not always the case as well. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (06:57) Yeah, there's a great book on that exact subject. It's called the E-Myth, the E-Myth Revisited. And in this book, E is entrepreneur, it's entrepreneur myth. And basically the summary of the whole book is if you think you, if you've learned how to do the technician level work, you like you have learned how to bake really great cakes. The myth is that now you think, well, I could go start a business and start a bakery making cakes. But a business involves a lot more. A business involves marketing, sales, accounting, you know, a lot of different stuff that is outside the skill set of baking a cake. And so the same thing with property management. Some people are like, I've managed properties for a while, or I've done business development for a property management company, done sales for a while. And they think I could now go start a business doing this. And that's the technician level work. That's not the business ownership type of stuff. then that's where things get a little more difficult. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (07:57) read that book it's actually a really great one for newbies in the business. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (08:01) Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I love that. So how does the PM collective work? How are you getting people together? How do you facilitate this? What does a typical meetup look like? How do you make these connections? Ashleigh Goodchild (08:13) Yeah, so we very much just have hosts that reach out to us and they see a gap in their location. And then they just give me, they have to give me three dates, times and locations. And I just set them up online for them. So it's relatively easy for the host. Everyone just rocks up. It's very, very casual. They grab their own coffee, they take a seat and the host is there just to sort of welcome everyone and sort of facilitate it to a certain point. We have the groups, they can range anywhere in size between four people to 20 people. And to be honest, even the groups of four, I find are so important because I find that the intimate conversations are so much stronger in those small groups and people really open up. And the conversation could be about anything. It could be about... certain products that we're using. might be about some subscriptions. It might be about what's currently not working, what demos we've had, what problems we've had. And I find in that smaller group, people definitely open up a lot more and get that real, really good support that they need. Sometimes it's we chat on a personal level. Again, that comes down to people that are personally happy, I believe make the best. employees and their best employers. And it's really important that we look after people's personal state and having those personal conversations and those opportunities to vent, think are incredibly important in that environment as well. And then we have a big mixture. So we've got some groups where we get a lot of BDMs come along, some where it's just the solo printers, some where it's the referring partners, they sort of just all find their own vibe. But one of the biggest things that has been really important is that consistency. So knowing the for the public to know that we're going to show up every single month at this location. And we're here if and when you need us. That consistency is really important. So really casual, you don't need to buy a ticket or anything like that. And I think that really what's made them successful though is that consistency. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (10:15) Got it. So is how does the PM collective have the bandwidth to facilitate this? How do you guys make money? How does that work? Ashleigh Goodchild (10:23) So we don't, we sort of run it as a bit of a not-for-profit, even though it's not registered as a not-for-profit. So the purpose is very much community-led learning. And I guess on a personal level, I run my own business, my own real estate business. So for me, that's my bread and butter, and this is really what's considered my passion project. So this is sort of more my legacy, I guess. And, you know, I've got the time and the energy. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (10:27) Okay. Ashleigh Goodchild (10:48) to and the love to do it. So that's what I do. We have got great sponsors who help support our podcast and cover the cost for the membership and things like that. And we've got a membership base, which would be say, I guess on the smaller medium size. And over time that will grow. But for now, the support is really where it's at and we're driven by that with no need. for any strong monetary value coming through at the moment. That might change in 10 years, but for now and the last five years, it's been perfect. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (11:19) Well, mean, it sounds like the people that are really giving to this community like yourself probably have some of the healthiest businesses because the people that are in over their head don't have time to go hang out or go to lunch or to meet up with people. so, you know, that, and that, you know, that allows people to come in that maybe they're are struggling to meet and hang out with people that are in a healthier place and kind of lend them a hand up. Right. So. Ashleigh Goodchild (11:32) No. It's interesting because in Australia, we've got what we call CPD points. don't know if you've got them, where they're like compulsory development points that you've got to do to hold your registration. and our events, they are not CPD registered, which means that people don't come along because they are coming because they just have to be registered and they just have to do so many points. They come because they actually want to come along. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (11:57) Okay. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (12:12) And I think you'll find that that has made a massive difference with the vibe. Like we had an event the other night, because we sort of run the separate events as well. And, you know, everyone comes along, they're catching up, they haven't seen each other for a couple of months. And it really feels like someone's birthday party. But the important thing is that people are there because they want to, not because they're going to get a CPD point attached to it. And you really can feel that difference in the vibe. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (12:37) Got it. Okay, well, let's take, I'm gonna do a quick word from our sponsors. This will be relevant. If you are a property management business owner, you're tired of getting tangled up in numbers, KRS SmartBooks has your back. They specialize in property bookkeeping for small to mid-sized managers who'd rather focus on, well, managing. So with over 15 years of experience in real estate, accounting, they're pros in Appfolio Yardi and all the top property software. Trust them to make your monthly reports hassle free so you can get back to what really matters running your business. Head over to KRSbooks.com to book your free discovery call. And so maybe that'll help you have a little more time to get back to the property management community. All right. So back to what we were talking about, Ashleigh. I love, I love this idea. I love that you've facilitated this vehicle for everybody to get together. You just, resonate positivity and I'm sure that kind of sets the tone for the group that people are kind of attracted to. And I've been part of groups where the leaders are very positive and it's just a different category and group of people. There's a lot of people that are helpful, positive. I'm in masterminds like that. And then there's others where the leader is more kind of like a dictator cult leader and like, it's just a very different environment. And there's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and stuff like this, right? and, I've been in some men's programs and things like that that were like that. And it's just, you know, it's a totally different environment. So you've created, and so this is really, I think a strong Testament to you. How many, how many people are involved in this throughout Australia and beyond. Ashleigh Goodchild (14:13) should know the answer to that and I don't. And I would probably say there would be around 20 hosts around Australia. So 20 people, have started having visionary leaders in each state and to help sort of help me control the states. But yeah, about 20 hosts. But then like I've got, for example, an audio summit coming up. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (14:21) Wow, OK. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (14:37) And that's got 17 leaders in Australia doing an audio summit for me. And we're doing 17 days of tips and tricks. So there is a lot of people that make up all of this, a lot of other coaches and trainers that give their time and their knowledge as well to it. So it really is a big project. in total, I'd say there's probably about a good 40, 50 people from coaches, trainers, leaders. who facilitates some sort of knowledge base for me on all these events. So pretty lucky. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (15:07) So describe to me the difference between structured management and random leadership. Ashleigh Goodchild (15:13) Yeah, so that's something that I practice inside my real estate at SoCo. And one thing that I've learned from other people and other leaders is when we do, obviously you need structured management, in terms of processes and procedures and all of that, and that's fine. But when it comes to leadership, sort of what you talking before about the dictatorship, I feel like I probably practice servant leadership a lot more. practice servant leadership at SoCo, which is the real estate, and I practice servant leadership in PM Collective. And very much I do picture myself or feel that I'm a leader from the bottom and that you just tell me what you need and I will deliver it for you. So I do that both in PM Collective and SoCo. And that's where the support comes from. The random leadership, I think, has been something that has really helped me keep long term staff. I'm known in the industry for having a long term team. anywhere between sort of seven years and 15 years average for property managers, which is great. And one of the things I would say have helped me and I have to say I haven't done this on purpose. It's just the way that I've done it. And I now I reflect back on it. I can see how it's worked. And if we were to every single year, give our team a Christmas bonus every single year, they're going to expect that. And if one year you don't do it because you can't afford it or something's changed, people are going to start getting a little bit ticked off because it's like, where's my bonus? get one every year. And I think the same goes with the Jason Hull - DoorGrow (16:52) become expected.   Ashleigh Goodchild (16:54) very much expected. And I think when we start getting, creating expectations with our team, that's when we can start getting a little bit of conflict. And I've seen it in a lot of agencies. So where I, I, I think what I think works really well is things like we might as an office randomly buy someone a coffee, or we might just randomly say, Hey, let's go out for lunch, or randomly, we'll do a Christmas bonus randomly. We might shout everyone a voucher for a massage. All of those random things mean so much more to your staff and they appreciate it so much more. Even if it was that $5 coffee or that random walk or that random time that you're giving, I just find that that doesn't set up expectations and people appreciate those little things a lot more. And like I said, it's not something that I went and said to myself, this is how I'm gonna manage my team. It's something that I just did naturally, probably because I'm a little bit scatty and I probably was, you know, not very good at keeping things consistent. But now that I look back on it and I can see that that 100 % has played a massive part in creating a really healthy long-term team. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (18:07) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. know, yeah, giving gifts means a lot more or giving experiences or doing things means a lot more than, you know, than just a bonus that they're expecting at the end of the year. And most people aren't actually money motivated. BDMs usually probably should be a little bit and maybe entrepreneurs, but that's the mistake entrepreneurs make is that we assume everybody else likes money as much as we do. A lot of times. And so we try to bonus people or reward people or motivate people with money. And a lot of times that backfires. And because most people aren't money motivated or money driven, know entrepreneurs listening right now are like, what? That makes no sense. I don't understand it, but yeah.   Ashleigh Goodchild (18:48) I think a lot of businesses as well, they try to manage their team by textbook and you know, the textbook says, we should give people their birthdays off or a textbook says we should, you know, we should do a bonus at Christmas or whatever it might be. But I think, you know, really getting to know each person and I know who in my team values me sitting down and talking to them and asking them how their weekend was. However, if I went and did that to someone else in the team. That'd be like, you just go away. I'm trying to work here. And I, I, I, yeah, I know what, what each person needs to be happy. One thing that I found more recently is that if your team can have a hobby, that is probably the biggest thing to create a happy team and hobbies prevent burnout. And I think that when we get a lot of people in the industry where all they do is work and family, work and family, they don't have anything in between. And so like one of my girls, she loves to play golf. She really young girl, 21 years old, plays golf semi-professionally. And she had asked whether she can start having some private coaching on Tuesday afternoons. So she was going to come in a few hours early. And I was like, absolutely no problems at all. Because if I give her that Tuesday afternoon off to go play golf, there's something else that she loves. I just find that, you know, people have to have other things they love just besides, yeah, besides the work and family. And that's something that I feel like I really try to encourage with everyone in industry is find a hobby if you're feeling stressed. And you know, and a hobby is not, you know, reading a book or something like that. It's actually like playing pickleball or netball or coaching a team or it's something specific. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (20:37) Got it. OK, so you're encouraging team members to have hobbies. And that allows them to maybe have a little bit more to bring to the table in terms of energy and life, it sounds like. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (20:42) 100 % Yeah, yeah, it just allows them to enjoy enjoy work. And like I said before, you've got to have them they need to have a happy home life for them to perform well for your clients. It's really, really important. You can't, you can't have them having a tough personal life at all that's going to affect you and your clients. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (21:10) Got it. Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a really good book called giftology by John Rulin. And he talks about the benefit of giving gifts, gift giving, to basically for almost as marketing or do increase referrals or to increase retention. But the same thing applies to team members. These doing these random things, sounds like a really solid idea. And then also encouraging hobbies I think could be really beneficial. So, So explain your vision for a more human and less transactional industry. Ashleigh Goodchild (21:43) So in Australia, have starting to become quite reliant on our offshore staff and our offshore team. And I'm assuming that that's everywhere. Would that be the same with your businesses? Jason Hull - DoorGrow (21:55) Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. There's a lot of people that are hiring VAs in the Philippines or Mexico for sure. Ashleigh Goodchild (22:02) Yeah, I mean, and whether it's part of your business plan or not, you know, I fully respect that. But what we've found in businesses is that by passing on the transactional work to our offshore team, and transactional, mean, collecting the rent, arranging maintenance, sending out inspection letters, you know, all of that sort of admin tasks, we're finding that that's really not where the value of a property manager or business owner is anymore. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (22:19) Mm-hmm. Ashleigh Goodchild (22:31) And so what we need to do is to move our skillset into more of a consulting role. We currently have been doing for a number of couple of years and I teach this a lot to other officers is what we call an annual investor audit. So our annual investor audits, they are 30 minute consults with every client and we are going diving straight into all the holistic side of their property because we need to make sure as a business that our clients are emotionally well and financially well. If they're emotionally and financially well, they're going to keep their investment property. The minute that they're stressed and not making money is the minute that they sell. And obviously that's not what we want in the businesses. So to do that by checking in with them, we are talking to them about any red flags we see with their tenancy with their rent or their inspections.   Jason Hull - DoorGrow (23:10) Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (23:27) We're talking them through and helping them understand what level of maintenance is considered normal or excessive in their property. If they're not spending enough maintenance, we're talking to them about ideas they've got for future renovations. We're talking to them about what their mortgage rates doing, how are they feeling? Are they positively geared or negatively geared? Is there any circumstance that's coming up in the next 12 months that we should make a note of that might cause them a little bit of stress? We are... Talking about all of those things on a real conversational level and it allows us to pick up trends of what that client's plans are. Are they planning on building a portfolio? Are they planning on selling in six months? Are we going as an office to see a huge wave of clients starting to sell? Is that something we need to protect that, you know, as an asset in our business? And so when we start getting into that consultancy role, it's no different to your accountant organizing a tax planning meeting. you know, in April, for example, that's exactly what we're doing. And we are planting seeds for that client so that they're never surprised when we call them up to say, Hey, your rent's gone backwards, or you got to spend $10,000 on the property. And that has been incredible. It's not only been something that's helped our churn rate. Generally in Australia, churn rate and loss rate for businesses can range anywhere between sort of 15 and 30%. Our office is sitting at about 5%. For it so for a large, a large office with we've got 1200 doors, to have that sort of 5 % churn rate is is actually considered really great. And I do put that down to the annual investor audits. And in addition, though, it allows the business owner Jason Hull - DoorGrow (24:52) Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (25:10) to take control of their asset and not to have to maintain that relationship. Because at the end of the day, I'm very passionate about that that client is my client as the business owner. And I need to keep that relationship up. And if I put all of that responsibility onto the property manager and my property manager leaves, I've got a risk that that client is going to follow the property manager. So that's a little bit of my of the importance and responsibility I take as a business owner. So they have been an incredible game changer for retention, but it's also helped uncover new business opportunities because when we've done these for our clients, we've never sort of asked them, do you have any properties? But so many clients have actually said to us, that was so good. Can you do it for my other property? And I'm like, sure. Where's your other property? and got the address and we've subsequently got the business of the because the other agencies weren't doing it. So obviously over time, more offices will start doing it. But that's just a great example of elevating the human side of property management. And we started introducing these in our business, like I said, a couple of years ago, I now teach them to other agencies around Australia. And then as soon as we can get, you know, a really good percentage of businesses, all bringing these in as just a natural part of the business, then we will that's how we see the industry elevate. And then that's just going to be considered a normal thing like checking rent arrears. And so that's really my vision to, to bring in things like that. I've been trialing, I do a lot of like mirroring in the business. So I trial things in my business first. And if it works, I will put it out to the industry. the other trial that I did was, which actually didn't work. And, it was about, I had a junior property manager and we had a lot of clients that we were losing from, from fees from owners being fee driven. And I thought to myself a little bit like a hairdresser. You've got a junior apprentice to cut your hair. You've got a senior stylist or you've got the director. And I thought to myself, I'm actually going to do a fee schedule with a junior rate. So if you want to, if you're fee driven and you want a junior to look after your property with less than one year experience, this is the fee. And if you want a senior, this is the fee. Now I thought that everybody would jump at the junior fee schedule because everyone seemed to be fee driven. What was so interesting is I did this trial for 12 months and I probably had 3%, maybe 2 % of clients actually say, I'll go with the junior fee schedule. Every single person said, thanks, but I think I'll stick with a senior. And I think that that's a great example to showcase that investors do want the experience. They want the peace of mind. And we all thought they wanted cheap fee schedules, but when given the opportunity for the cheap fee schedule with a junior, they didn't take it. So I thought that that was a really good example. Yeah, I know. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (27:49) Mm-hmm. yeah. I could talk about that for an hour. We've tested a lot of stuff on pricing. Ashleigh Goodchild (28:10) But it was just a great test to do. I trialed it, it didn't work. So I've gone to the industry and I've said, given it ago, it hasn't worked. I'm now trialing a second option with fee schedules. And hopefully that works because I just feel like the industry needs to move just from the same fee schedules we've been doing for 20 years. It really is something that needs to be done there. So that's my next mission. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (28:14) Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love the experimentation. So cool thing about my position is I get hundreds of guinea pigs. And so I do all sorts of testing. And so we could chat about some of that. We've done some fun stuff, but I love the idea of the annual investor audit. call those, we coach clients on that as well. We call those annual portfolio reviews and that's a great opportunity to get more referrals. great opportunity to get more reviews and testimonials. It's a great opportunity to create more connection with the client and to showcase what's invisible to them currently that you're actually doing work. And yeah, and it's going to significantly decrease churn. You mentioned churn maybe between on a lot of companies, maybe being between 15 to 30%. And if you're at 1200 units, I was doing math while you were talking, that would be between 180 to 360 units being lost each year. And so a lot of property managers don't pay attention to what's leaving and they think, well it's infrequent or they're selling their properties or whatever and they're not paying attention to that. They're so focused on how do I get more doors? And sometimes they're losing more doors than they're adding each year or they're just breaking even. And so they've been at the same spot for like a decade sometimes. And they're wondering, why does this feel like a grind? And they're not making progress. And sometimes you have to look at what you're losing and what's your level of service that you have there and how visible is what you're doing to your client? Because if it's not visible, they're going to assume, well, why do I even pay them? They're not doing anything. They're just collecting rent. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (30:15) Yeah, it's like, I call it a, we've got a client success manager. And I think that that's a real missing part in a lot of businesses because we've got the BDM who brings in new business. We've got the property manager who maintains it, but the client success manager actually is what I call a BDM in reverse, because if they can prove your retention, that is growth. So therefore it is still a BDM role. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (30:21) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (30:41) that you've got someone specifically for. So that's a real big missing part. And I think a lot of businesses when they don't have somebody specifically on that role. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (30:52) Yeah, I've been privy to see inside of a lot of different types of businesses and being in a lot of different masterminds. And one of the things that I've seen is that some of the most sales oriented organizations, like companies that they're focused on placing salespeople and hiring salespeople and stuff like this, they always have their best salespeople graduate to be on their client success team. is how they kind of position it. And they call that their second sales team. Because these are the people that get people to re-up or renew or continue on, or to bump up into a higher level program. so client success is your other sales team. their whole job is to decrease churn. Their whole job is to increase retention. So at DoorGrow our client success manager is my oldest daughter. And she does our client success. And she's got the personality for it. She's much more of a feeler than I am. She's much more about community than myself, right? I'm more of a logical thinker in a lot of instances. And so clients just love her. She does a great job. And so everybody should have client success. What's funny is in the property management industry, you hear the phrase property manager, but that's like this mystery sort of title that means a different thing to everybody you ask. And so for some of them, some people think their property manager is supposed to be a BDM also. I'm like, those are... probably different personality types. Some think they're the maintenance coordinator, but then they'll hire a maintenance coordinator and they call somebody else a property manager. so property managers also could be those client success people, the relationship builder. And so that's where it gets confusing is when we're, I hired a property manager. Well, okay, what are you having them do? I always have to ask because it's always different. So I don't know if you've noticed that in Australia, but. Ashleigh Goodchild (32:41) Yeah, and I think as well, like, I like what you mentioned before about how a lot of people don't actually see what we do. And I think that's where you've got the opportunity. Because I remember a long time ago, a client said to me, you know, wanting to negotiate on fees after a couple of years. And he said, you know, your job's easy, you don't, you know, the you don't have to do anything for your money. So therefore, you should reduce the fees. And I'm like, Jason Hull - DoorGrow (32:49) Yeah, it's invisible. Ashleigh Goodchild (33:07) Hold on a second, we've chosen a fantastic, perfect tenant. We do a lot in the background to make it look like we are managing it nice and easily and not creating any stress for you. Do you want me to create a problem tenant so it looks like that I'm doing work so that you can justify the fee? Because the fee is so, is reflective on you finding, it look like that we're having a very easy life. but that's taken a lot of skill and experience to do that. It's just so backwards, isn't it? That the way that they validate our fee, if we have got lots of problems and they think we're not worth our fee when we've got nothing to do and got a perfect tenant, which was the result of us putting it in the first place. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (33:34) Yeah. Yeah, I used to work in IT and one of the things I learned in doing IT and working on computers and networks is that if you make everything run perfectly, they wonder why they even pay you at all. And then I also noticed if there was a problem, they're like, why do we pay this person at all? There's now this problem with the network. so either way, couldn't win. So I learned I had to make the invisible visible. I had to tell them all the time, hey, I just updated this server. I just changed this. This has been improved. That's preventing these problems. And they're like, wow, Jason's on top of this. Jason's making everything run smooth. So I had to learn to be noisy. I worked at Hewlett Packard and I was in Boise, Idaho and I had a boss in Texas. And he would just look at our... he would message us all throughout the day through an instant message app or whatever. He would message us, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I was like, he can't see what we're doing. So I just started changing my status. I allowed you to put a little status, they use some Microsoft app, I can't remember Teams, I don't remember what it was. But I just would update it every day and I would say like throughout the day what I was working on in that moment. Updating this, working on this, doing this, and just what I was doing. And so then he started asking, what's your coworker? doing because we were a two person team that were over a big system. And he was like, what's what's what's Josh doing? Is he working? What's he? So he started to perceive that I was on top of things and working and this other person was lazy and not doing stuff. I'm like, no, he's working too. So yeah, but that's I sold, you know, we've translated that to helping clients make sure you're showcasing the invisible because they can't see it. Otherwise, you have to be noisy. And those annual reviews are a great opportunity to do that because you say Here's how many maintenance requests we've handled that you didn't have to deal with. Here's how much money has been collected. Here's the payouts that we've done to you. Here's all the stuff that we've been taking care of that's prevented you from having to deal with this. Here's how many calls we took. Here's how many tickets we handled. All these vanity metrics justify why they spend the money with you. So I love that you're reinforcing that idea. So for my clients listening. She said, and she's got 1200 doors, which is probably more than some of you. so Ashleigh, what do you feel like people are hearing your low churn rate besides the annual investor audits that you do and maybe having a client success manager. I don't, what, what do you feel like is really significantly reduced the churn rate down to 5%. I mean, that's significant in any business. Ashleigh Goodchild (36:25) Yeah, it would. You've got your audits, it would probably be I think myself being a director of the business who is 100 % active in property management and approachable is a really important word. Clients know that they can call me at any time they know that if one of my property managers is on leave, they can call me to handle anything that plays a massive part. And if I reflect on some of my clients, because we all get clients that, you know, maybe aren't happy with something or a little hiccup has happened, to know that my clients don't just silently leave and say, that happened, not happy, I'm gonna go find someone else. They always contact me first. I actually had one the other day to say, Ash, my property manager is really lovely, but I'm just feeling like I need someone with a bit more confidence. No problems at all. Let me move you to this person. The fact that they approach me first and give me the opportunity and know that they can call me to move them. I just take that with so much privilege because that doesn't happen in a lot of offices. If you're not approachable and your client would rather just leave the property, then bother coming to you because they don't think they're going to get heard. That's going to be a problem. So for me, that is massive. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (37:24) Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (37:46) And then probably the final thing, I think that our values really show through, through social media and my presence on social media, the fact that they know me on a personal level, they can see that I've got kids, they can see that I've done podcasts, they can see when I win awards, and embracing our clients on our journey and allowing them to see every part of me as a human being, I think is great. We do an annual an annual drive for a not-for-profit. support DB survivors quite a lot in our business and we promote philanthropic investing. And so the fact that we bring in our clients to be involved in that process by buying their clients, their tenants a hamper for Christmas to strengthen relationships has been a fantastic PR exercise with clients saying, you know, yes, please organize my 10 Christmas hamper and we're just so thankful to be aligned with a business like yours that supports, you know, good causes. It's those little things that I've probably played the biggest part in it, in their retention and client success. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (38:49) Love it. Yeah, I love that. A lot of property managers are so focused and business owners are so focused on thinking, what, how do I get more money? How do I take more instead of like the benefit of being involved in how much trust it would create to be involved in some sort of philanthropy or charity or something that's a bit more outward focus. And, and one of things we are really big on at DoorGrow is coaching our clients on finding a, in building out their client centered mission statement is figuring out. How do you make this vision bigger so that you're having a positive impact, not just for yourself, for the business, for your team, but maybe the community at large, maybe the industry at large? And what sort of impact and change do you want to see there and making that vision bigger? Because it allows you to attract team members that are inspired by a bigger vision, allows you to attract clients that resonate and are inspired by a bigger vision. And so you get better people all around. Ashleigh Goodchild (39:48) And it gives other people the opportunity to do good. And with our annual hamper drive, we did that last year. And all we did, we aligned ourselves with a not-for-profit hamper company, which is sort of like a by-product of one of the charities. And they support women getting back into the workforce. And so not-for-profit, we emailed all our clients and we said to our landlords, listen, if you've had a great year with your tenant, we would love to arrange a hamper on your behalf. It's $88. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (39:53) Yeah. Ashleigh Goodchild (40:16) and we'll take it from your rental income and we'll send it on behalf of you for Christmas. It's a great way to acknowledge you've had a great experience with your tenant and strengthen that relationship. And from that alone, just us doing OneDrive last year raised 14,287. And so this year we have now through PM Collective promoted that through other agencies to do the same. And I actually had an email from the CEO of the not-for-profit today and she said, Ash, I am just so excited to get these numbers back to you. We have had such a huge response from you and assitting against it. And I just can't wait to see what the figure will be because I know as an agency, we will do probably double and the fact that other agencies now will do good. It's just an example of the impact that we didn't realize we were having by giving our landlords the opportunity to do good, but then sharing that with other people to give them the opportunity for their clients to do good. It's just so wonderful on so many levels. And it's the same with our philanthropic investing. encourage owners who financially are able to rent out their home at a low market rate to a survivor of DV. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (41:19) Love it. Ashleigh Goodchild (41:29) to do it and you'll be surprised at how many people don't even know it's an option. It's not saying that it's right for every landlord, but there are so many landlords out there who have a vacant property and didn't even know that they could do this jump on board. yeah, giving those opportunities to people that didn't know that it was an option, I think is really great to see. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (41:50) Yeah, love it. mean, people want to feel good about themselves and, you know, being able to give gifts or being able to benefit others makes people feel good about themselves. And if you're giving your clients a chance to feel good about themselves, they're going to associate that with you. Yeah, that's beautiful. So, well, cool. I love all these different ideas and tips. think you've shared that. I love the idea of doing the annual portfolio reviews. love the idea of, you know, the Ashleigh Goodchild (42:04) Yeah. Yeah. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (42:18) charitable stuff, the philanthropy stuff. Love the idea of giving people a vehicle or some method to bypass the frontline staff person that they're assigned so that they can reach somebody that can maybe, if they want to complain about that, that team member or some, there's a, there's a gateway there or a vehicle there for them to do that rather than them just going, well, I guess I have to quit. I don't know. Yeah. So I love, I love these ideas. that I think anybody listening to this would benefit in decreased churn. Ashleigh Goodchild (42:40) Yeah. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (42:47) Well, Ashleigh, I appreciate you coming here on the show. How can people maybe get in touch with you or with your business or whatever you would like to share with others here in closing? Ashleigh Goodchild (42:58) Yeah, well, I mean, I'm very easy to Google. You can just Google Ashleigh Goodchild and hopefully find me there. But I am on Instagram and all the socials under PM Collective or under Ashleigh Goodchild. So I'd love to connect with anyone that finds me on those platforms. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (43:16) Perfect. All right, Ashleigh. We'll probably have to have you come talk to our clients sometime. I think that'd be fun. So, all right. Thank you, Ashleigh. Appreciate you coming here on the show. All right. So for those that are struggling in your property management business and you want to kind of get to that next level, make sure you reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We would love to facilitate or help you or see if we could help you with your business. Ashleigh Goodchild (43:21) Love them. Thanks for having me. Jason Hull - DoorGrow (43:41) If you felt stagnant for a while, also join our free Facebook, just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com And if you would like to get the best ideas and property management, join our free newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.  

J'ai fait une boulette récemment avec un client. Rien de grave, mais franchement… j'ai eu honte. Et ça m'a donné envie de créer cette Minute Marine spéciale boulettes : celles qu'on fait tous, qu'on oublie vite (ou pas), et qui nous apprennent souvent un truc.Dans cette MM, je te raconte trois loupés : une histoire de factures oubliées, un rendez-vous raté, et un fail de prospection bien gênant. Le tout, en toute transparence — parce que se marrer de ses boulettes, ça aide à avancer.Et toi, c'était quand ta dernière boulette client ? Tu me racontes ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

Propositions LL and MM passed by wide margins and levy taxes on the wealthiest Coloradans to ensure school kids are fed at no cost to families and that cafeteria workers would be better paid. 

“You do you, and do it the best way you can." In this episode, Nick speaks with Renee Zukin about her journey, the role of technology in creativity, and the challenges of adult friendships. They discuss the importance of embracing vulnerability, the tools for self-mastery, and the significance of celebrating small wins as well as finding small ways to be brave every day. What to listen for: Embracing vulnerability is essential for personal growth. Writing is a powerful tool for processing thoughts and emotions. Self-compassion is crucial in the journey of self-mastery. Celebrating small wins can motivate further progress. Bravery exists on a spectrum; every small step counts. Inner work is necessary for creating positive change in the world. “How can I show up for myself, my people in the microcosm of my world so that it becomes reflected and ripples out into the macrocosm?” Real change starts small. The way you show up in your daily life creates a wider impact. Self-awareness and intentional action create ripple effects far beyond what we can see. Community begins with how we treat ourselves and those closest to us. Global transformation often starts with personal alignment and integrity. “One of the reasons why life can be so hard is because we're so trained to ignore our innate signals.” We've learned to override our instincts and emotions to “fit in.” Ignoring your intuition leads to burnout, confusion, and disconnection. Our bodies and emotions often know the truth before our minds do. Relearning how to listen to yourself can make life flow more easily. Healing begins when you trust your inner signals instead of silencing them. About Renee Zukin Renee is an author, educator, coach, and mental health advocate doing the inner work to see outer change. She has more than 20 years of experience in education, writing, and entrepreneurship, and has studied multiple psychological and healing modalities that have sustained her and helped support her students and clients alike. She is passionate about cultivating a safe space for others to use the written word and organizational structures as tools for self-transformation and empowerment. Renee is also the author of the new book, Every Day, I'm Brave: Cultivating Resilience to Gain Freedom from Fear (Wonderwell Press, 2025). https://www.reneezukin.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/rzukin/ https://www.instagram.com/reneezukin/ https://www.amazon.com/Every-Day-Brave-Cultivating-Resilience/dp/1963827252 Resources: Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.464)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I'm your host Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Renee Zukin. Renee, how you doing today? Renee Zukin (00:11.06)I'm doing fantastic, Nick, so excited to be here. Nick McGowan (00:14.188)Yeah, I'm excited too. I think it's going to be great. Why don't you get us started. Tell us what you do for a living and what's one thing most people don't know about you that's maybe a little odd or bizarre. Renee Zukin (00:22.478)Love this question. Well, I'm a writer. I'm an educator. Currently, I coach entrepreneurs in digital online marketing, which is a lot of fun. And one thing that most people don't know about me, I actually recorded an album back in 2011. Yes, yes. It was my first foray into songwriting and the band I had curated was called Collectible Boys. it started out as a poetry and essay writing project and it turned into an album. So, you you never know where the spirit's going to take you. Nick McGowan (01:08.408)Nice. Nick McGowan (01:15.02)Yeah, literally. that's cool. mean, as a musician, I've already told you, now I have loads of questions about what kind of music, where did you record, and how did you find the studio musicians, and what did you play, and what did you not play, and what is it all about, you know? So feel free to share any of that if you'd like. Renee Zukin (01:21.518)Mm-hmm. Renee Zukin (01:25.518)Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun. started out just really wanting to play music and I did need to get musicians to actually help me curate the music underneath because for me, I was writing lyrics and I had melodies and you know, I only have a few years of piano lessons as a kid under my belt. So I knew I needed the the heavy hitters to come in and help create it underneath. And I did, I collected some amazing local musicians who've played in multiple bands and knew what they were doing. And we played out for a couple of years and I was like, we need to record this. And we did it in one weekend. So it was definitely a whirlwind and a lot of fun. Nick McGowan (02:12.584)Thanks Nick McGowan (02:19.576)And I love that sort of stuff. And especially like people listen to albums or they'll listen to a new song that comes out. You might think like, this is great. And these people just keep putting these things out like any bands that put out new albums. It's like, but we have no idea the amount of time and effort and energy that every single one of them put into figuring out what do we do? How do we do it? And I think oftentimes people forget about the sometimes the fifth or sixth member of the band. producer and the one who's actually recording everything. And I said this to you before we started even recording this, that sometimes the answers that will come out of that initial question will kind of alter the way that the conversations go. And I think this may be one of those situations. Like as a musician, I've been having conversations with people recently that have been using AI and Renee Zukin (02:49.646)Right? Yeah. Renee Zukin (03:03.516)Yeah. Renee Zukin (03:11.266)Mmm. Nick McGowan (03:13.309)if you, somebody who has a few years of piano lessons from X amount of years ago, and you have ideas and some melodies and you go, well, I want the drums to sound like, whatever, like you just make noises. Like you can't really do that. guess, well, Timbaland made a whole career out of making noises and putting in the records, but that's one person. Renee Zukin (03:26.168)Right. Renee Zukin (03:30.478)Yeah Nick McGowan (03:36.329)I think it's interesting how there's technology that helps us with things but can also really hinder us. I have a good friend of mine who writes music constantly, plays acoustic, sings, and he can mess around on some other instruments, but his main thing is like first second position of acoustic, singer-songwriter type stuff, and using AI at times to help with a backing band. Like I can understand going that direction because the resource is there, but I Renee Zukin (03:41.784)Mm-hmm. Renee Zukin (04:05.666)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (04:06.184)I that also can hurt us from being creative and stretching those muscles and being more brave in the confusing things. Like you sit down on the piano and go, I'm fucking fine, middle C, K, triad, you know, like instead of going, well, here, this is the thing I want. And as somebody who, like you didn't have AI in 2011. Renee Zukin (04:11.317)and Renee Zukin (04:17.704)Yeah. Renee Zukin (04:29.55)No I didn't. Nick McGowan (04:31.424)you had to find people to actually be musicians with you, work through that stuff, what are your thoughts, what are your feelings with that sort of stuff? Renee Zukin (04:35.458)Mm-hmm. This is great. I because I think it's similar to also to writing in general. Obviously we can use. Yeah. And I think what you're speaking to is this opportunity for our own creativity to allow us to learn and grow like when we get stuck. Okay. So I, you know, my skills and here I want to play around, but also the Nick McGowan (04:45.94)Yeah, big time. Renee Zukin (05:05.996)opportunity to connect with other people who do have those skills and have the conversations and get to really play and modify and modulate music and the piece in different ways. And I think actually you could even say this with all kinds of art. Like I am not like, I'm a firm believer that AI and its ability to help us create can save us a lot of time, save us a lot of energy. There's ways in which it's a great tool to have and there's ways in which we can teach it how to be a better AI partner. So I'm definitely all in and playing the game and I think that we also have to balance that out with our own boredom, our own limits. our ability to get creative, to connect with other people and have a, you know, more of a co-creation. So I'm definitely not an either or, but I certainly lean towards, you know, the authentic human experience can create something that a machine cannot. Nick McGowan (06:23.318)Sure. Well, so I think most of the people listening to this podcast are probably around our age. Like, I'm gonna say, looking specifically at the demographic numbers that I have, it's about 25 to 55, but it's heavier in the 35 to 45 range. I have conversations with people I haven't said to you. I like, I've got four or five friends at this point. That's about true that like I consistently have a relationship with and I work on those outside of my partner and you know, things like that. as we get older and that friend that I was talking to, he's like, well,

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Powerleegirl hosts, the mother daughter team of Miko Lee, Jalena & Ayame Keane-Lee speak with artists about their craft and the works that you can catch in the Bay Area. Featured are filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang and photographer Joyce Xi.   More info about their work here: Diamond Diplomacy Yuriko Gamo Romer Jessica Huang's Mother of Exiles at Berkeley Rep Joyce Xi's Our Language Our Story at Galeria de la Raza     Show Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:46] Thank you for joining us on Apex Express Tonight. Join the PowerLeeGirls as we talk with some powerful Asian American women artists. My mom and sister speak with filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang, and photographer Joyce Xi. Each of these artists have works that you can enjoy right now in the Bay Area. First up, let's listen in to my mom Miko Lee chat with Yuriko Gamo Romer about her film Diamond Diplomacy.    Miko Lee: [00:01:19] Welcome, Yuriko Gamo Romer to Apex Express, amazing filmmaker, award-winning director and producer. Welcome to Apex Express.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:29] Thank you for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:01:31] It's so great to see your work after this many years. We were just chatting that we knew each other maybe 30 years ago and have not reconnected. So it's lovely to see your work. I'm gonna start with asking you a question. I ask all of my Apex guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:49] Oh, who are my people? That's a hard one. I guess I'm Japanese American. I'm Asian American, but I'm also Japanese. I still have a lot of people in Japan. That's not everything. Creative people, artists, filmmakers, all the people that I work with, which I love. And I don't know, I can't pare it down to one narrow sentence or phrase. And I don't know what my legacy is. My legacy is that I was born in Japan, but I have grown up in the United States and so I carry with me all that is, technically I'm an immigrant, so I have little bits and pieces of that and, but I'm also very much grew up in the United States and from that perspective, I'm an American. So too many words.    Miko Lee: [00:02:44] Thank you so much for sharing. Your latest film was called Diamond Diplomacy. Can you tell us what inspired this film?   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:02:52] I have a friend named Dave Dempsey and his father, Con Dempsey, was a pitcher for the San Francisco Seals. And the Seals were the minor league team that was in the West Coast was called the Pacific Coast League They were here before the Major League teams came to the West Coast. So the seals were San Francisco's team, and Con Dempsey was their pitcher. And it so happened that he was part of the 1949 tour when General MacArthur sent the San Francisco Seals to Allied occupied Japan after World War II. And. It was a story that I had never heard. There was a museum exhibit south of Market in San Francisco, and I was completely wowed and awed because here's this lovely story about baseball playing a role in diplomacy and in reuniting a friendship between two countries. And I had never heard of it before and I'm pretty sure most people don't know the story. Con Dempsey had a movie camera with him when he went to Japan I saw the home movies playing on a little TV set in the corner at the museum, and I thought, oh, this has to be a film. I was in the middle of finishing Mrs. Judo, so I, it was something I had to tuck into the back of my mind Several years later, I dug it up again and I made Dave go into his mother's garage and dig out the actual films. And that was the beginning. But then I started opening history books and doing research, and suddenly it was a much bigger, much deeper, much longer story.   Miko Lee: [00:04:32] So you fell in, it was like synchronicity that you have this friend that had this footage, and then you just fell into the research. What stood out to you?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:41] It was completely amazing to me that baseball had been in Japan since 1872. I had no idea. And most people,   Miko Lee: [00:04:49] Yeah, I learned that too, from your film. That was so fascinating.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:53] So that was the first kind of. Wow. And then I started to pick up little bits and pieces like in 1934, there was an American All Star team that went to Japan. And Babe Ruth was the headliner on that team. And he was a big star. People just loved him in Japan. And then I started to read the history and understanding that. Not that a baseball team or even Babe Ruth can go to Japan and prevent the war from happening. But there was a warming moment when the people of Japan were so enamored of this baseball team coming and so excited about it that maybe there was a moment where it felt like. Things had thawed out a little bit. So there were other points in history where I started to see this trend where baseball had a moment or had an influence in something, and I just thought, wow, this is really a fascinating history that goes back a long way and is surprising. And then of course today we have all these Japanese faces in Major League baseball.   Miko Lee: [00:06:01] So have you always been a baseball fan?   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:06:04] I think I really became a fan of Major League Baseball when I was living in New York. Before that, I knew what it was. I played softball, I had a small connection to it, but I really became a fan when I was living in New York and then my son started to play baseball and he would come home from the games and he would start to give us the play by play and I started to learn more about it. And it is a fascinating game 'cause it's much more complex than I think some people don't like it 'cause it's complex.    Miko Lee: [00:06:33] I must confess, I have not been a big baseball fan. I'm also thinking, oh, a film about baseball. But I actually found it so fascinating with especially in the world that we live in right now, where there's so much strife that there was this way to speak a different language. And many times we do that through art or music and I thought it was so great how your film really showcased how baseball was used as a tool for political repair and change. I'm wondering how you think this film applies to the time that we live in now where there's such an incredible division, and not necessarily with Japan, but just with everything in the world.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:07:13] I think when it comes down to it, if we actually get to know people. We learn that we're all human beings and that we probably have more in common than we give ourselves credit for. And if we can find a space that is common ground, whether it's a baseball field or the kitchen, or an art studio, or a music studio, I think it gives us a different place where we can exist and acknowledge That we're human beings and that we maybe have more in common than we're willing to give ourselves credit for. So I like to see things where people can have a moment where you step outside of yourself and go, oh wait, I do have something in common with that person over there. And maybe it doesn't solve the problem. But once you have that awakening, I think there's something. that happens, it opens you up. And I think sports is one of those things that has a little bit of that magical power. And every time I watch the Olympics, I'm just completely in awe.    Miko Lee: [00:08:18] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And speaking of that kind of repair and that aspect that sports can have, you ended up making a short film called Baseball Behind Barbed Wire, about the incarcerated Japanese Americans and baseball. And I wondered where in the filmmaking process did you decide, oh, I gotta pull this out of the bigger film and make it its own thing?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:08:41] I had been working with Carrie Yonakegawa. From Fresno and he's really the keeper of the history of Japanese American baseball and especially of the story of the World War II Japanese American incarceration through the baseball stories. And he was one of my scholars and consultants on the longer film. And I have been working on diamond diplomacy for 11 years. So I got to know a lot of my experts quite well. I knew. All along that there was more to that part of the story that sort of deserved its own story, and I was very fortunate to get a grant from the National Parks Foundation, and I got that grant right when the pandemic started. It was a good thing. I had a chunk of money and I was able to do historical research, which can be done on a computer. Nobody was doing any production at that beginning of the COVID time. And then it's a short film, so it was a little more contained and I was able to release that one in 2023.   Miko Lee: [00:09:45] Oh, so you actually made the short before Diamond Diplomacy.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:09:49] Yeah. The funny thing is that I finished it before diamond diplomacy, it's always been intrinsically part of the longer film and you'll see the longer film and you'll understand that part of baseball behind Barbed Wire becomes a part of telling that part of the story in Diamond Diplomacy.   Miko Lee: [00:10:08] Yeah, I appreciate it. So you almost use it like research, background research for the longer film, is that right?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:10:15] I had been doing the research about the World War II, Japanese American incarceration because it was part of the story of the 150 years between Japan and the United States and Japanese people in the United States and American people that went to Japan. So it was always a part of that longer story, and I think it just evolved that there was a much bigger story that needed to be told separately and especially 'cause I had access to the interview footage of the two guys that had been there, and I knew Carrie so well. So that was part of it, was that I learned so much about that history from him.   Miko Lee: [00:10:58] Thanks. I appreciated actually watching both films to be able to see more in depth about what happened during the incarceration, so that was really powerful. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the style of actually both films, which combine vintage Japanese postcards, animation and archival footage, and how you decided to blend the films in this way.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:11:19] Anytime you're making a film about history, there's that challenge of. How am I going to show this story? How am I gonna get the audience to understand and feel what was happening then? And of course you can't suddenly go out and go, okay, I'm gonna go film Babe Ruth over there. 'cause he's not around anymore. So you know, you start digging up photographs. If we're in the era of you have photographs, you have home movies, you have 16 millimeter, you have all kinds of film, then great. You can find that stuff if you can find it and use it. But if you go back further, when before people had cameras and before motion picture, then you have to do something else. I've always been very much enamored of Japanese woodblock prints. I think they're beautiful and they're very documentary in that they tell stories about the people and the times and what was going on, and so I was able to find some that sort of helped evoke the stories of that period of time. And then in doing that, I became interested in the style and maybe can I co-opt that style? Can we take some of the images that we have that are photographs? And I had a couple of young artists work on this stuff and it started to work and I was very excited. So then we were doing things like, okay, now we can create a transition between the print style illustration and the actual footage that we're moving into, or the photograph that we're dissolving into. And the same thing with baseball behind barbed wire. It became a challenge to show what was actually happening in the camps. In the beginning, people were not allowed to have cameras at all, and even later on it wasn't like it was common thing for people to have cameras, especially movie cameras. Latter part of the war, there was a little bit more in terms of photos and movies, but in terms of getting the more personal stories. I found an exhibit of illustrations and it really was drawings and paintings that were visual diaries. People kept these visual diaries, they drew and they painted, and I think part of it was. Something to do, but I think the other part of it was a way to show and express what was going on. So one of the most dramatic moments in there is a drawing of a little boy sitting on a toilet with his hands covering his face, and no one would ever have a photograph. Of a little boy sitting on a toilet being embarrassed because there are no partitions around the toilet. But this was a very dramatic and telling moment that was drawn. And there were some other things like that. There was one illustration in baseball behind barbed wire that shows a family huddled up and there's this incredible wind blowing, and it's not. Home movie footage, but you feel the wind and what they had to live through. I appreciate art in general, so it was very fun for me to be able to use various different kinds of art and find ways to make it work and make it edit together with the other, with the photographs and the footage.    Miko Lee: [00:14:56] It's really beautiful and it tells the story really well. I'm wondering about a response to the film from folks that were in it because you got many elders to share their stories about what it was like being either folks that were incarcerated or folks that were playing in such an unusual time. Have you screened the film for folks that were in it? And if so what has their response been?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:15:20] Both the men that were in baseball behind barbed wire are not living anymore, so they have not seen it. With diamond diplomacy, some of the historians have been asked to review cuts of the film along the way. But the two baseball players that play the biggest role in the film, I've given them links to look at stuff, but I don't think they've seen it. So Moi's gonna see it for the first time, I'm pretty sure, on Friday night, and it'll be interesting to see what his reaction to it is. And of course. His main language is not English. So I think some of it's gonna be a little tough for him to understand. But I am very curious 'cause I've known him for a long time and I know his stories and I feel like when we were putting the film together, it was really important for me to be able to tell the stories in the way that I felt like. He lived them and he tells them, I feel like I've heard these stories over and over again. I've gotten to know him and I understand some of his feelings of joy and of regret and all these other things that happen, so I will be very interested to see what his reaction is to it.   Miko Lee: [00:16:40] Can you share for our audience who you're talking about.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:16:43] Well, Sanhi is a nickname, his name is Masa Nouri. Murakami. He picked up that nickname because none of the ball players could pronounce his name.   Miko Lee: [00:16:53] I did think that was horrifically funny when they said they started calling him macaroni 'cause they could not pronounce his name. So many of us have had those experiences.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:17:02] Yeah, especially if your name is Masanori Murakami. That's a long, complicated one. So he, Masanori Murakami is the first Japanese player that came and played for the major leagues. And it was an inadvertent playing because he was a kid, he was 19 years old. He was playing on a professional team in Japan and they had some, they had a time period where it made sense to send a couple of these kids over to the United States. They had a relationship with Kapi Harada, who was a Japanese American who had been in the Army and he was in Japan during. The occupation and somehow he had, he'd also been a big baseball person, so I think he developed all these relationships and he arranged for these three kids to come to the United States and to, as Mahi says, to study baseball. And they were sent to the lowest level minor league, the single A camps, and they played baseball. They learned the American ways to play baseball, and they got to play with low level professional baseball players. Marcy was a very talented left handed pitcher. And so when September 1st comes around and the postseason starts, they expand the roster and they add more players to the team. And the scouts had been watching him and the Giants needed a left-handed pitcher, so they decided to take a chance on him, and they brought him up and he was suddenly going to Shea Stadium when. The Giants were playing the Mets and he was suddenly pitching in a giant stadium of 40,000 people.    Miko Lee: [00:18:58] Can you share a little bit about his experience when he first came to America? I just think it shows such a difference in time to now.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:19:07] Yeah, no kidding. Because today they're the players that come from Japan are coddled and they have interpreters wherever they go and they travel and chartered planes and special limousines and whatever else they get. So Marcie. He's, I think he was 20 by the time he was brought up so young. Mahi at 20 years old, the manager comes in and says, Hey, you're going to New York tomorrow and hands him plane tickets and he has to negotiate his way. Get on this plane, get on that plane, figure out how to. Get from the airport to the hotel, and he's barely speaking English at this point. He jokes that he used to carry around an English Japanese dictionary in one pocket and a Japanese English dictionary in the other pocket. So that's how he ended up getting to Shea Stadium was in this like very precarious, like they didn't even send an escort.   Miko Lee: [00:20:12] He had to ask the pilot how to get to the hotel. Yeah, I think that's wild. So I love this like history and what's happened and then I'm thinking now as I said at the beginning, I'm not a big baseball sports fan, but I love love watching Shohei Ohtani. I just think he's amazing. And I'm just wondering, when you look at that trajectory of where Mahi was back then and now, Shohei Ohtani now, how do you reflect on that historically? And I'm wondering if you've connected with any of the kind of modern Japanese players, if they've seen this film.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:20:48] I have never met Shohei Ohtani. I have tried to get some interviews, but I haven't gotten any. I have met Ichi. I did meet Nori Aoki when he was playing for the Giants, and I met Kenta Maya when he was first pitching for the Dodgers. They're all, I think they're all really, they seem to be really excited to be here and play. I don't know what it's like to be Ohtani. I saw something the other day in social media that was comparing him to Taylor Swift because the two of them are this like other level of famous and it must just be crazy. Probably can't walk down the street anymore. But it is funny 'cause I've been editing all this footage of mahi when he was 19, 20 years old and they have a very similar face. And it just makes me laugh that, once upon a time this young Japanese kid was here and. He was worried about how to make ends meet at the end of the month, and then you got the other one who's like a multi multimillionaire.    Miko Lee: [00:21:56] But you're right, I thought that too. They look similar, like the tall, the face, they're like the vibe that they put out there. Have they met each other?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:05] They have actually met, I don't think they know each other well, but they've definitely met.   Miko Lee: [00:22:09] Mm, It was really a delight. I am wondering what you would like audiences to walk away with after seeing your film.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:17] Hopefully they will have a little bit of appreciation for baseball and international baseball, but more than anything else. I wonder if they can pick up on that sense of when you find common ground, it's a very special space and it's an ability to have this people to people diplomacy. You get to experience people, you get to know them a little bit. Even if you've never met Ohtani, you now know a little bit about him and his life and. Probably what he eats and all that kind of stuff. So it gives you a chance to see into another culture. And I think that makes for a different kind of understanding. And certainly for the players. They sit on the bench together and they practice together and they sweat together and they, everything that they do together, these guys know each other. They learn about each other's languages and each other's food and each other's culture. And I think Mahi went back to Japan with almost as much Spanish as they did English. So I think there's some magical thing about people to people diplomacy, and I hope that people can get a sense of that.    Miko Lee: [00:23:42] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell our audience how they could find out more about your film Diamond diplomacy and also about you as an artist?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:23:50] the website is diamonddiplomacy.com. We're on Instagram @diamonddiplomacy. We're also on Facebook Diamond Diplomacy. So those are all the places that you can find stuff, those places will give you a sense of who I am as a filmmaker and an artist too.    Miko Lee: [00:24:14] Thank you so much for joining us today, Yuriko. Gamo. Romo. So great to speak with you and I hope the film does really well.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:24:22] Thank you, Miko. This was a lovely opportunity to chat with you.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:24:26] Next up, my sister Jalena Keane-Lee speaks with playwright Jessica Huang, whose new play Mother of Exiles just had its world premiere at Berkeley Rep is open until December 21st.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:39] All right. Jessica Huang, thank you so much for being here with us on Apex Express and you are the writer of the new play Mother of Exiles, which is playing at Berkeley Rep from November 14th to December 21st. Thank you so much for being here.   Jessica Huang: [00:24:55] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:59] I'm so curious about this project. The synopsis was so interesting. I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about it and how you came to this work.   Jessica Huang: [00:25:08] When people ask me what mother of Exiles is, I always say it's an American family story that spans 160 plus years, and is told in three acts. In 90 minutes. So just to get the sort of sense of the propulsion of the show and the form, the formal experiment of it. The first part takes place in 1898, when the sort of matriarch of the family is being deported from Angel Island. The second part takes place in 1999, so a hundred years later where her great grandson is. Now working for the Miami, marine interdiction unit. So he's a border cop. The third movement takes place in 2063 out on the ocean after Miami has sunk beneath the water. And their descendants are figuring out what they're gonna do to survive. It was a strange sort of conception for the show because I had been wanting to write a play. I'd been wanting to write a triptych about America and the way that interracial love has shaped. This country and it shaped my family in particular. I also wanted to tell a story that had to do with this, the land itself in some way. I had been sort of carrying an idea for the play around for a while, knowing that it had to do with cross-cultural border crossing immigration themes. This sort of epic love story that each, in each chapter there's a different love story. It wasn't until I went on a trip to Singapore and to China and got to meet some family members that I hadn't met before that the rest of it sort of fell into place. The rest of it being that there's a, the presence of, ancestors and the way that the living sort of interacts with those who have come before throughout the play.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:13] I noticed that ancestors, and ghosts and spirits are a theme throughout your work. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your own ancestry and how that informs your writing and creative practice.   Jessica Huang: [00:27:25] Yeah, I mean, I'm in a fourth generation interracial marriage. So, I come from a long line of people who have loved people who were different from them, who spoke different languages, who came from different countries. That's my story. My brother his partner is German. He lives in Berlin. We have a history in our family of traveling and of loving people who are different from us. To me that's like the story of this country and is also the stuff I like to write about. The thing that I feel like I have to share with the world are, is just stories from that experience.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:03] That's really awesome. I guess I haven't really thought about it that way, but I'm third generation of like interracial as well. 'cause I'm Chinese, Japanese, and Irish. And then at a certain point when you're mixed, it's like, okay, well. The odds of me being with someone that's my exact same ethnic breakdown feel pretty low. So it's probably gonna be an interracial relationship in one way or the other.   Jessica Huang: [00:28:26] Totally. Yeah. And, and, and I don't, you know, it sounds, and it sounds like in your family and in mine too, like we just. Kept sort of adding culture to our family. So my grandfather's from Shanghai, my grandmother, you know, is, it was a very, like upper crust white family on the east coast. Then they had my dad. My dad married my mom whose people are from the Ukraine. And then my husband's Puerto Rican. We just keep like broadening the definition of family and the definition of community and I think that's again, like I said, like the story of this country.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:29:00] That's so beautiful. I'm curious about the role of place in this project in particular, mother of exiles, angel Island, obviously being in the Bay Area, and then the rest of it taking place, in Miami or in the future. The last act is also like Miami or Miami adjacent. What was the inspiration behind the place and how did place and location and setting inform the writing.   Jessica Huang: [00:29:22] It's a good question. Angel Island is a place that has loomed large in my work. Just being sort of known as the Ellis Island of the West, but actually being a place with a much more difficult history. I've always been really inspired by the stories that come out of Angel Island, the poetry that's come out of Angel Island and, just the history of Asian immigration. It felt like it made sense to set the first part of the play here, in the Bay. Especially because Eddie, our protagonist, spent some time working on a farm. So there's also like this great history of agriculture and migrant workers here too. It just felt like a natural place to set it. And then why did we move to Miami? There are so many moments in American history where immigration has been a real, center point of the sort of conversation, the national conversation. And moving forward to the nineties, the wet foot, dry foot Cuban immigration story felt like really potent and a great place to tell the next piece of this tale. Then looking toward the future Miami is definitely, or you know, according to the science that I have read one of the cities that is really in danger of flooding as sea levels rise.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:50] Okay. The Cuban immigration. That totally makes sense. That leads perfectly into my next question, which was gonna be about how did you choose the time the moments in time? I think that one you said was in the nineties and curious about the choice to have it be in the nineties and not present day. And then how did you choose how far in the future you wanted to have the last part?   Jessica Huang: [00:31:09] Some of it was really just based on the needs of the characters. So the how far into the future I wanted us to be following a character that we met as a baby in the previous act. So it just, you know, made sense. I couldn't push it too far into the future. It made sense to set it in the 2060s. In terms of the nineties and, why not present day? Immigration in the nineties , was so different in it was still, like I said, it was still, it's always been a important national conversation, but it wasn't. There was a, it felt like a little bit more, I don't know if gentle is the word, but there just was more nuance to the conversation. And still there was a broad effort to prevent Cuban and refugees from coming ashore. I think I was fascinated by how complicated, I mean, what foot, dry foot, the idea of it is that , if a refugee is caught on water, they're sent back to Cuba. But if they're caught on land, then they can stay in the us And just the idea of that is so. The way that, people's lives are affected by just where they are caught , in their crossing. I just found that to be a bit ridiculous and in terms of a national policy. It made sense then to set the second part, which moves into a bit of a farce at a time when immigration also kind of felt like a farce.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:46] That totally makes sense. It feels very dire right now, obviously. But it's interesting to be able to kind of go back in time and see when things were handled so differently and also how I think throughout history and also touching many different racial groups. We've talked a lot on this show about the Chinese Exclusion Act and different immigration policies towards Chinese and other Asian Americans. But they've always been pretty arbitrary and kind of farcical as you put it. Yeah.   Jessica Huang: [00:33:17] Yeah. And that's not to make light of like the ways that people's lives were really impacted by all of this policy . But I think the arbitrariness of it, like you said, is just really something that bears examining. I also think it's really helpful to look at where we are now through the lens of the past or the future. Mm-hmm. Just gives just a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective. Maybe just a little bit of context to how we got to where we got to.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:50] That totally makes sense. What has your experience been like of seeing the play be put up? It's my understanding, this is the first this is like the premier of the play at Berkeley Rep.   Jessica Huang: [00:34:00] Yes. Yeah. It's the world premier. It's it incredible. Jackie Bradley is our director and she's phenomenal. It's just sort of mesmerizing what is happening with this play? It's so beautiful and like I've alluded to, it shifts tone between the first movement being sort of a historical drama on Angel Island to, it moves into a bit of a farce in part two, and then it, by the third movement, we're living in sort of a dystopic, almost sci-fi future. The way that Jackie's just deftly moved an audience through each of those experiences while holding onto the important threads of this family and, the themes that we're unpacking and this like incredible design team, all of these beautiful visuals sounds, it's just really so magical to see it come to life in this way. And our cast is incredible. I believe there are 18 named roles in the play, and there are a few surprises and all of them are played by six actors. who are just. Unbelievable. Like all of them have the ability to play against type. They just transform and transform again and can navigate like, the deepest tragedies and the like, highest moments of comedy and just hold on to this beautiful humanity. Each and every one of them is just really spectacular. So I'm just, you know. I don't know. I just feel so lucky to be honest with you. This production is going to be so incredible. It's gonna be, it feels like what I imagine in my mind, but, you know, plus,    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:45] well, I really can't wait to see it. What are you hoping that audiences walk away with after seeing the show?   Jessica Huang: [00:35:54] That's a great question. I want audiences to feel connected to their ancestors and feel part of this community of this country and, and grateful and acknowledge the sacrifices that somebody along the line made so that they could be here with, with each other watching the show. I hope, people feel like they enjoyed themselves and got to experience something that they haven't experienced before. I think that there are definitely, nuances to the political conversation that we're having right now, about who has the right to immigrate into this country and who has the right to be a refugee, who has the right to claim asylum. I hope to add something to that conversation with this play, however small.   Jalena Keane-Lee:[00:36:43]  Do you know where the play is going next?   Jessica Huang: [00:36:45] No. No. I dunno where it's going next. Um, exciting. Yeah, but we'll, time will   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:51] and previews start just in a few days, right?   Jessica Huang: [00:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. We have our first preview, we have our first audience on Friday. So yeah, very looking forward to seeing how all of this work that we've been doing lands on folks.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:03] Wow, that's so exciting. Do you have any other projects that you're working on? Or any upcoming projects that you'd like to share about?   Jessica Huang: [00:37:10] Yeah, yeah, I do. I'm part of the writing team for the 10 Things I Hate About You Musical, which is in development with an Eye Toward Broadway. I'm working with Lena Dunham and Carly Rae Jepsen and Ethan Ska to make that musical. I also have a fun project in Chicago that will soon be announced.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:31] And what is keeping you inspired and keeping your, you know, creative energies flowing in these times?   Jessica Huang: [00:37:37] Well first of all, I think, you know, my collaborators on this show are incredibly inspiring. The nice thing about theater is that you just get to go and be inspired by people all the time. 'cause it's this big collaboration, you don't have to do it all by yourself. So that would be the first thing I would say. I haven't seen a lot of theater since I've been out here in the bay, but right before I left New York, I saw MEUs . Which is by Brian Keda, Nigel Robinson. And it's this sort of two-hander musical, but they do live looping and they sort of create the music live. Wow. And it's another, it's another show about an untold history and about solidarity and about folks coming together from different backgrounds and about ancestors, so there's a lot of themes that really resonate. And also the show is just so great. It's just really incredible. So , that was the last thing I saw that I loved. I'm always so inspired by theater that I get to see.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:36] That sounds wonderful. Is there anything else that you'd like to share?   Jessica Huang: [00:38:40] No, I don't think so. I just thanks so much for having me and come check out the show. I think you'll enjoy it. There's something for everyone.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:48] Yeah. I'm so excited to see the show. Is there like a Chinese Cuban love story with the Miami portion? Oh, that's so awesome. This is an aside, but I'm a filmmaker and I've been working on a documentary about, Chinese people in Cuba and there's like this whole history of Chinese Cubans in Cuba too.   Jessica Huang: [00:39:07] Oh, that's wonderful. In this story, it's a person who's a descendant of, a love story between a Chinese person and a Mexican man, a Chinese woman and a Mexican man, and oh, their descendant. Then also, there's a love story between him and a Cuban woman.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:25] That's awesome. Wow. I'm very excited to see it in all the different intergenerational layers and tonal shifts. I can't wait to see how it all comes together.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:39:34] Next up we are back with Miko Lee, who is now speaking with photographer Joyce Xi about her latest exhibition entitled Our Language, our Story Running Through January in San Francisco at Galleria de Raza.    Miko Lee: [00:39:48] Welcome, Joyce Xi to Apex Express.    Joyce Xi: [00:39:52] Thanks for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:39:53] Yes. I'm, I wanna start by asking you a question I ask most of my guests, and this is based on the great poet Shaka Hodges. It's an adaptation of her question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Joyce Xi: [00:40:09] My people are artists, free spirits, people who wanna see a more free and just, and beautiful world. I'm Chinese American. A lot of my work has been in the Asian American community with all kinds of different people who dreaming of something better and trying to make the world a better place and doing so with creativity and with positive and good energy.   Miko Lee: [00:40:39] I love it. And what legacy do you carry with you?   Joyce Xi: [00:40:43] I am a fighter. I feel like just people who have been fighting for a better world. Photography wise, like definitely thinking about Corky Lee who is an Asian American photographer and activist. There's been people who have done it before me. There will be people who do it after me, but I wanna do my version of it here.   Miko Lee: [00:41:03] Thank you so much and for lifting up the great Corky Lee who has been such a big influence on all of us. I'm wondering in that vein, can you talk a little bit about how you use photography as a tool for social change?   Joyce Xi: [00:41:17] Yeah. Photography I feel is a very powerful tool for social change. Photography is one of those mediums where it's emotional, it's raw, it's real. It's a way to see and show and feel like important moments, important stories, important emotions. I try to use it as a way to share. Truths and stories about issues that are important, things that people experience, whether it's, advocating for environmental justice or language justice or just like some of them, just to highlight some of the struggles and challenges people experience as well as the joys and the celebrations and just the nuance of people's lives. I feel like photography is a really powerful medium to show that. And I love photography in particular because it's really like a frozen moment. I think what's so great about photography is that. It's that moment, it's that one feeling, that one expression, and it's kind of like frozen in time. So you can really, sit there and ponder about what's in this person's eyes or what's this person trying to say? Or. What does this person's struggle like? You can just see it through their expressions and their emotions and also it's a great way to document. There's so many things that we all do as advocates, as activists, whether it's protesting or whether it's just supporting people who are dealing with something. You have that moment recorded. Can really help us remember those fights and those moments. You can show people what happened. Photography is endlessly powerful. I really believe in it as a tool and a medium for influencing the world in positive ways.   Miko Lee: [00:43:08] I'd love us to shift and talk about your latest work, Our language, Our story.” Can you tell us a little bit about where this came from?   Joyce Xi: [00:43:15] Sure. I was in conversation with Nikita Kumar, who was at the Asian Law Caucus at the time. We were just chatting about art and activism and how photography could be a powerful medium to use to advocate or tell stories about different things. Nikita was talking to me about how a lot of language access work that's being done by organizations that work in immigrant communities can often be a topic that is very jargon filled or very kind of like niche or wonky policy, legal and maybe at times isn't the thing that people really get in the streets about or get really emotionally energized around. It's one of those issues that's so important to everything. Especially since in many immigrant communities, people do not speak English and every single day, every single issue. All these issues that these organizations advocate around. Like housing rights, workers' rights, voting rights, immigration, et cetera, without language, those rights and resources are very hard to understand and even hard to access at all. So, Nik and I were talking about language is so important, it's one of those issues too remind people about the core importance of it. What does it feel like when you don't have access to your language? What does it feel like and look like when you do, when you can celebrate with your community and communicate freely and live your life just as who you are versus when you can't even figure out how to say what you wanna say because there's a language barrier.    Miko Lee: [00:44:55] Joyce can you just for our audience, break down what language access means? What does it mean to you and why is it important for everybody?   Joyce Xi: [00:45:05] Language access is about being able to navigate the world in your language, in the way that you understand and communicate in your life. In advocacy spaces, what it can look like is, we need to have resources and we need to have interpretation in different languages so that people can understand what's being talked about or understand what resources are available or understand what's on the ballot. So they can really experience their life to the fullest. Each of us has our languages that we're comfortable with and it's really our way of expressing everything that's important to us and understanding everything that's important to us. When that language is not available, it's very hard to navigate the world. On the policy front, there's so many ways just having resources in different languages, having interpretation in different spaces, making sure that everybody who is involved in this society can do what they need to do and can understand the decisions that are being made. That affects them and also that they can affect the decisions that affect them.   Miko Lee: [00:46:19] I think a lot of immigrant kids just grow up being like the de facto translator for their parents. Which can be things like medical terminology and legal terms, which they might not be familiar with. And so language asks about providing opportunities for everybody to have equal understanding of what's going on. And so can you talk a little bit about your gallery show? So you and Nikita dreamed up this vision for making language access more accessible and more story based, and then what happened?   Joyce Xi: [00:46:50] We decided to express this through a series of photo stories. Focusing on individual stories from a variety of different language backgrounds and immigration backgrounds and just different communities all across the Bay Area. And really just have people share from the heart, what does language mean to them? What does it affect in their lives? Both when one has access to the language, like for example, in their own community, when they can speak freely and understand and just share everything that's on their heart. And what does it look like when that's not available? When maybe you're out in the streets and you're trying to like talk to the bus driver and you can't even communicate with each other. How does that feel? What does that look like? So we collected all these stories from many different community members across different languages and asked them a series of questions and took photos of them in their day-to-day lives, in family gatherings, at community meetings, at rallies, at home, in the streets, all over the place, wherever people were like Halloween or Ramadan or graduations, or just day-to-day life. Through the quotes that we got from the interviews, as well as the photos that I took to illustrate their stories, we put them together as photo stories for each person. Those are now on display at Galleria Deza in San Francisco. We have over 20 different stories in over 10 different languages. The people in the project spoke like over 15 different languages. Some people used multiple languages and some spoke English, many did not. We had folks who had immigrated recently, folks who had immigrated a while ago. We had children of immigrants talking about their experiences being that bridge as you talked about, navigating translating for their parents and being in this tough spot of growing up really quickly, we just have this kind of tapestry of different stories and, definitely encourage folks to check out the photos but also to read through each person's stories. Everybody has a story that's very special and that is from the heart   Miko Lee: [00:49:00] sounds fun. I can't wait to see it in person. Can you share a little bit about how you selected the participants?    Joyce Xi: [00:49:07] Yeah, selecting the participants was an organic process. I'm a photographer who's trying to honor relationships and not like parachute in. We wanted to build relationships and work with people who felt comfortable sharing their stories, who really wanted to be a part of it, and who are connected in some kind of a way where it didn't feel like completely out of context. So what that meant was that myself and also the Asian Law Caucus we have connections in the community to different organizations who work in different immigrant communities. So we reached out to people that we knew who were doing good work and just say Hey, do you have any community members who would be interested in participating in this project who could share their stories. Then through following these threads we were able to connect with many different organizations who brought either members or community folks who they're connected with to the project. Some of them came through like friends. Another one was like, oh, I've worked with these people before, maybe you can talk to them. One of them I met through a World Refugee Day event. It came through a lot of different relationships and reaching out. We really wanted folks who wanted to share a piece of their life. A lot of folks who really felt like language access and language barriers were a big challenge in their life, and they wanted to talk about it. We were able to gather a really great group together.    Miko Lee: [00:50:33] Can you share how opening night went? How did you navigate showcasing and highlighting the diversity of the languages in one space?    Joyce Xi: [00:50:43] The opening of the exhibit was a really special event. We invited everybody who was part of the project as well as their communities, and we also invited like friends, community and different organizations to come. We really wanted to create a space where we could feel and see what language access and some of the challenges of language access can be all in one space. We had about 10 different languages at least going on at the same time. Some of them we had interpretation through headsets. Some of them we just, it was like fewer people. So people huddled together and just interpreted for the community members. A lot of these organizations that we partnered with, they brought their folks out. So their members, their community members, their friends and then. It was really special because a lot of the people whose photos are on the walls were there, so they invited their friends and family. It was really fun for them to see their photos on the wall. And also I think for all of our different communities, like we can end up really siloed or just like with who we're comfortable with most of the time, especially if we can't communicate very well with each other with language barriers. For everybody to be in the same space and to hear so many languages being used in the same space and for people to be around people maybe that they're not used to being around every day. And yet through everybody's stories, they share a lot of common experiences. Like so many of the stories were related to each other. People talked about being parents, people talked about going to the doctor or taking the bus, like having challenges at the workplace or just what it's like to celebrate your own culture and heritage and language and what the importance of preserving languages. There are so many common threads and. Maybe a lot of people are not used to seeing each other or communicating with each other on a daily basis. So just to have everyone in one space was so special. We had performances, we had food, we had elders, children. There was a huge different range of people and it was just like, it was just cool to see everyone in the same space. It was special.    Miko Lee: [00:52:51] And finally, for folks that get to go to Galleria de la Raza in San Francisco and see the exhibit, what do you want them to walk away with?   Joyce Xi: [00:53:00] I would love for people to walk away just like in a reflective state. You know how to really think about how. Language is so important to everything that we do and through all these stories to really see how so many different immigrant and refugee community members are making it work. And also deal with different barriers and how it affects them, how it affects just really simple human things in life that maybe some of us take for granted, on a daily basis. And just to have more compassion, more understanding. Ultimately, we wanna see our city, our bay area, our country really respecting people and their language and their dignity through language access and through just supporting and uplifting our immigrant communities in general. It's a such a tough time right now. There's so many attacks on our immigrant communities and people are scared and there's a lot of dehumanizing actions and narratives out there. This is, hopefully something completely different than that. Something that uplifts celebrates, honors and really sees our immigrant communities and hopefully people can just feel that feeling of like, oh, okay, we can do better. Everybody has a story. Everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and all the people in these stories are really amazing human beings. It was just an honor for me to even be a part of their story. I hope people can feel some piece of that.    Miko Lee: [00:54:50] Thank you so much, Joyce, for sharing your vision with us, and I hope everybody gets a chance to go out and see your work.    Joyce Xi: [00:54:57] Thank you.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:00] Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the guests tonight and find out how you can take direct action.   Apex Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for civil rights and equality. Find out more at aacre.org. That's AACRE.org.   We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.    Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Nina Phillips & Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night.       The post APEX Express – 11.20.25 – Artist to Artist appeared first on KPFA.

Je râle souvent sur LinkedIn, mais parfois l'algorithme me fait une fleur.Il y a quelques semaines, je tombe sur un post de Théo, qui me donne envie de commenter "Guide" et récupérer son workbook sur la prospection.Dans cette MM, je partage ce que j'ai retenu de cette pépite (pour une fois que je prends le temps de lire les contenus que je télécharge

Healing Through Laughter: Dave Ebert on Comedy, Faith, and Overcoming Trauma In this episode, Diana rebroadcasts the interview of the late Dave Ebert, who passed away unexpectedly July 2, 2024. He discusses his journey from struggling with depression and contemplating suicide to becoming a renowned improv coach, pastor, and comedian. Dave, who founded Gifts for Glory Ministries, shares his early love for entertaining, the personal struggles he faced, and how faith and comedy became his tools for healing and helping others. He also explores his work with the Salt and Light Coalition, helping survivors of sex trafficking through improv, which aids in their communication skills and self-esteem. The episode delves into the importance of connection, trust, and the transformative power of laughter in overcoming trauma and finding hope. We hope you enjoy hearing Dave's legacy and timeless advice.  You will hear the second interview of Dave and his wife's missionary work next episode. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Meet Your Host, Diana 01:34 Introducing Dave Ebert 02:51 Dave's Childhood and Early Love for Comedy 03:45 Struggles with Family and Faith 07:30 Turning Point: Finding Faith and Purpose 10:57 Battling Depression and Suicidal Thoughts 21:04 The Power of Presence and Support 24:25 A New Beginning in Chicago 26:32 Starting a Faith-Based Improv Team 27:32 Creating Clean Comedy for All Ages 29:10 Using Comedy as a Ministry Tool 31:50 Connecting with Salt and Light Coalition 33:12 Teaching Improv to Trafficking Survivors 36:20 Stories of Transformation Through Improv 44:18 Current Projects and Online Improv Shows 47:16 Offering Support and Contact Information 50:47 Final Thoughts and Podcast Information   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Dave Ebert  [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. Thanks for joining us today. You know, I've been telling you there are many paths and tools for healing and comedy is one of them. I think you'll enjoy our podcast today, friends. Our guest, Dave Ebert is the founder of Gifts for Glory Ministries. Dave is an improv coach, speaker, pastor, actor, and improv performer with his wife Bobby, residing in Chicago, Illinois. Gifts for Glory is ready to provide high quality, clean family friendly entertainment and professional [00:02:00] improv coaching to survivors of sex trafficking. Hey, welcome to the show Dave. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm, uh, really looking forward to having our conversation. Your bio is so impressive. I had trouble. Uh, shortening it for the intro. I'm sorry, I, I try to provide enough information, but, uh, I, I could have probably shortened it, but maybe it's because I'm a pastor. I just like to embellish and go on for a long, long period of time. So we're gonna fill in the blanks here and throughout our time together, and I can't wait to hear some good jokes. We will. We'll see what comes up. I'm an improviser, so nothing's ever planned. So if there's a moment of funny, yeah, I just give God the credit and if there's not, it's just, I don't know. We'll see. So tell us about your childhood. Were you always funny or into comedy? I really [00:03:00] was, uh, one of the earliest pictures of me other than, you know, baby pictures, uh, was a old Polaroid of, uh, me flexing, like I was in a bodybuilding contest because we we're at the city pool. There was an actual, like a swimsuit or bodybuilding competition going on on the other side. And my parents and their friends were just there at the pool and I was like, no, they're not gonna get the attention. I'm gonna get the attention. So there's this picture of me flexing my little chubby 2-year-old arms and it was like, I, I love to entertain and I love the attention and trying to, uh, get people an opportunity to laugh. So yeah, pretty much my entire life, um. Uh, I, I just liked it. I enjoyed, and I lived off of people's laughter. Now, did you experience any trauma in your life? There were, um, there wasn't any like one singular event, like a, a massive. You know, tragedy. But my dad was in Vietnam. He was in the [00:04:00] Vietnam War, and he got in contact with that chemical agent Orange that, uh, I've heard about. And, uh, that just ravaged his body. You know, when he hit 30, he was, you know, a healthy, strong 30-year-old guy working in the trades, and he was disabled by the time he was. 37, 38, um, from heart attacks, from just loss of, uh, dexterity in his hands and uh, and losing his ability to even walk. And it was all, uh, just complications and, and complications from the agent Orange. And so we were living in Chicago at that. You know, when I was first born and then when he'd had his third heart attack, we had to move out of the city and get away from the fast pace of Chicago and went down to Virginia where it's a lot slower lifestyle, a little bit easier for him to handle that kind of stress. But over the next 20 or so years as his health failed, there were a lot of conflicts in the home [00:05:00] between he and mom, between he and myself, and, um, so it was. It wasn't a tragic event, it was just this long period of watching my dad lose his ability to do the things that men do, like work with their hands, play with their son, hang out with their son, things like that. And, uh, you're not able to handle that because we really didn't have a strong faith. Base. So there was nothing kind of anchoring us in that storm. Mm-hmm. And so it was over, you know, two decades that, you know, there's just a lot of little traumas. Little fights, uh, big fights and, and things like that. We said we were Christian and we went to church. Um. Uh, fairly regularly, uh, mostly for holidays and potlucks. Uh, but um, we, uh, we said we were Christian, but it kind of [00:06:00] only existed from 11 to 12 on, on Sundays. Uh, we lived decently. We weren't out killing people. We weren't doing drugs and like that, but, um, but we weren't really like practicing. We didn't say, you know, grace at meals. We didn't pray together. We, I don't think I ever saw an either of my parents actually open a Bible. So we were kind of Christians in name only. Um, we had the, the membership card went to the meetings, but we didn't actually do a lot of practicing outside of church. So kinda like Chris and dumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of, kind of creases with a little bit more regular attendance because the church I grew up in, uh, or at least as a kid, they had a lot of potlucks. It, it was almost like the one way to guarantee people would come. It was like, yeah, we're gonna have a potluck to celebrate this this weekend. And I love the potlucks because there's always at least five to sometimes six, uh, different varieties of mac and cheese, and that's my favorite. Favorite. Yes. [00:07:00] Yes. Mac and cheese. Yes. Mashed potatoes. Mm-hmm. Mashed potatoes, uh, all sorts of desserts. And, uh, for your, your listeners, they won't know this, but if they see, you know, my headshot or whatnot, I, I'm not a small individual and I will put the blame firmly on that church. Where all the potlucks, oh, they fed me, but not spiritually. Oh. That's funny. So when did you meet the Lord for real? Well, my story's kind of unique or maybe it's not. Um, but for me it depends on what your personal theology is to interpret it. I. Going into my sixth grade year, uh, that, that summer before my sixth grade year, I went to a summer camp and I, uh, went, you know, we had devotions each night at a campfire. And I remember on Thursday night, the day before, the night before we're leaving. [00:08:00] Something at the devotion spoke to me and I said, on my way by myself, said That little sinners prayer of Jesus coming to my heart. I want to make you Lord. Um, and you know, I remember the prayer, I remember walking up that gravel driveway up towards the cabin. And, but like I said, it kind of hinted at there wasn't a lot of discipleship for young believers at my church. So. It was like, oh, I accepted Christ. What does that mean? What do I do with it? And so from that year. For many years after, I never really got truly discipled to understand what it meant to be a Christ follower. And through my depression and the, you know, just some of the choices I made, I kind of walked away from that. So if you believe that you can walk away from salvation, then you could say that I walked away from it. Uh, some believe once saved, always saved. So you can either choose that summer or you can look to, uh, January, 2013 when. Uh, [00:09:00] still wrestling, depression, still looking for purpose in life. I was walking to work, uh, on a Saturday morning and. There were these two kids from a local Bible college out there looking for people to witness to, uh, they had the, uh, tract, which, uh, for anybody that doesn't know tract is a small graphic novel that, uh, kind of tells the gospel story. And, um, so they were out there and there's really no reason for them to be there 'cause it wasn't a very populated area. Um, so there really wouldn't be a lot of people out there on a Saturday morning. So it was obviously a divine appointment. They gave me the track and they offered to pray for me, but I didn't, you know, I kind of blew them off. Said, yeah, I'm a Christian, I'm saved. Yeah, I'm good, but I gotta get to work. But because they were there, they passed out the track and because of a lot of stuff that was leading up to that moment, it was like, okay, God, I'm ready to submit. I'm, I'm ready. So that night I, uh, opened up my, uh, Rick Warren, purpose Driven Life. I started reading [00:10:00] my, uh, dollar General, uh, king James version Bible got all the way through Deuteronomy before. I was like, I need something simpler. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. Um, those two kids, I don't know if I'll ever see them again, at least not in this life, but they were kind of the straw that broke the camel's back to where I made the decision because I was still wrestling with depression and I was literally at this place where I was on top of, I, I described it as I was on a peak of a mountaintop where. I was still considering, you know, taking my life so I could either go left and just take my life and, and end it once and for all, or I could go right and give my life and fully submit to God. And that was kind of the moment that kind of clenched it for me to take that step towards God and really for the first time, pursue a relationship with him. So that was in, uh, January of, uh, 2013. So let's unpack the. Part where you talked about you wanted to end [00:11:00] your life. What happened there? It was a, a culmination of a lot of things. I, I had a lot of dreams and ideals of what life should look like, and this started in, uh, junior high and high school. Um, and then, uh, you know, combine that with, uh, this struggle with my relationship with my dad. Um, you know, not ever quite being good enough because he always had, sometimes these. Surreal expectations and, and when I didn't meet them, I felt like a failure and, you know, just all these different things. Um, it just added up to one night. I remember, um, I was pursuing this, this young lady to date her in high school and you know, for the first time I was like, this might be the one that I actually get her to date me. And then, um. Afternoon, after I talked to her in the morning, I saw her walking, holding hands with somebody else, and that was. [00:12:00] Kind of the straw that broke the camel's back the other way, uh, to where I entered into that depression. And, uh, it just kept getting deeper. The more my dad and I fought, the more my mom and dad fought. You know, it just got deeper and through, um, my junior year, senior year high school, all through college, after college for many years, uh, through my first marriage, you know, just. That voice was always in the back of my head, you're not worthy. Um, no one's gonna truly love you. Um, might as well end the pain now. And so I just, I really wrestled with the idea of suicide. There were times that I was ready to do it, but I cursed myself for being too weak or too afraid to commit. But looking back, it was that, as the Bible calls it, the still small voice. That was, you know, just kind of coaxing me to don't give in just yet. Don't give in just yet. So looking back, obviously God was [00:13:00] there with me the entire time. It's just I didn't realize who that voice was or why I was not able to fully take that next step. It was because God was there trying to yank and pull me back from the edge. Wow. I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to, um, the things that you're saying right now about wanting to end it all. Now, did you cover up your depression, your feelings? Did anybody else know about that? I covered it. Um, as I mentioned, I love to entertain people, make people laugh. So it started off very, when I was very young. It was just this pure thing of enjoying the laughter and enjoying giving that gift to people. But when I entered the Depression, it became a defense mechanism where I would keep people from seeing what I was feeling and also try to prevent them from feeling the darkness I felt. If I could do that, if I could make somebody laugh, if I could [00:14:00] entertain somebody, if I could make somebody feel better, then I was able to justify living for the next week or the next day or what have you. And so comedy or making people laugh was where I found my worth and my value. And if I went too far and I offended somebody, if I hurt somebody's feelings, uh, or if I said something that just kind of embarrassed me. It went into the spiral where it was like, see, even the one thing you count on for value you fail at. And so it would spiral me and it was like, man, I just, I need to drive my truck off this cliff, or I need to, um, do this or that other thing to myself just, and I always wanted to leave it as an ac, you know, make it look like it was an accident. Um, whenever I really contemplated, uh, suicide because I didn't want the embarrassment. I didn't want people to judge me and say things about me, and I also didn't want the judgment to follow my [00:15:00] parents or anybody else because I didn't want them to be punished for what I was going through. So I always tried to make it or plan out to look like an accident. Um, one night I in particular, I remember driving home late at night through the mountain roads. It was maybe three or four in the morning, and I just was at this breaking point and I prayed. I said, God, if you don't want me to do this, gimme a sign. Do something. And if you think about Pure Flix movies or a Hallmark movie, you know, you think in that moment, all of a sudden the sky opens and the lights shines, and the angels come down. And, but in that moment, it felt like it got darker. It almost, it felt like, like God actually got quieter. Than, than I felt he had been. And so I got mad and I got angry at God. And I, I think I probably said a few curse words at him and, and said, you know, whatever. And I got mad and I drove [00:16:00] home. But here's the, the thing about it, I drove home. I didn't drive to the left off that cliff and. I, I say that that was a moment where God knew what I needed. It's not conventional, it's not what you would expect, but it's what I needed. 'cause he knew I'd go mad or I would get mad, and he knew that he would have to take some barbs from me in that anger. But it was God laying himself down for me in that moment so that I would go home instead of, you know, take my life. And that's just another thing that I look back on and say, wow, God was there this whole time. Wow. I've never contemplated suicide myself. I've had some really dark times with my, abuse history. Mm-hmm. Now I've had depression before. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't so much that I needed to take medication. Um, it was just this cloud of darkness and like [00:17:00] sitting in a pit. Yeah. That you can't get out of and it's no amount of positive thinking is going to do it. Right. It just took a long time to crawl out of that. These brilliant people, you know, we're talking about comedy and the most brilliant comedian was Robin Williams. Sure. And he was so funny. And, yeah. When he took his own life after battling depression, um, I really mourned his death. 'cause Yeah. Yeah. It, and that's one of the things where it shows that fame, fortune, having everything at, at your fingertips, it's not a substitute for. Anything because you look at Rob Williams, you think about even, you know, they don't classify necessarily as a suicide. You look, but you look at somebody like Chris Farley, uh, John Belushi, um, the lifestyle that those two guys [00:18:00] chose and the way that they treated their bodies was kind of a long term suicide because they did not take care of their bodies. And I'm not talking about being heavy. I'm talking about the drugs, the drinking, the things like the partying. For hours upon hours on end, it was they were trying to fill something in their soul that they couldn't fill. Um, so for, and I don't say these things as judgment. Mm-hmm. I say these things as warnings. Um, heads up. If you see somebody that is trying to fill their life with partying, find the time when they're sober and talk to them. See if there's something going on. Uh, and like you look at somebody like Robin Williams. It's a very hard thing to know how to handle that because you don't know what his family life was like. Did he have somebody in his, in his corner that knew what he is wrestling with and they were just happened to be gone in an, in the instant that he was the weakest? Um, [00:19:00] for me, I think one of the, the biggest things is if you see somebody or know somebody that could potentially be similar to where Robin Williams was at. Pray and ask for God to show you how to reach them, um, and be willing to pursue it. Um, it's, no, no two depressions are the same because no two people are the same. There's no blanket there, a, b, c methodology that's going to, like, if I do these three or four things, I'm gonna pull my friend out of what they're at. Because there's different triggers, there's different experiences, there's different chemical imbalances in the mind. So don't ever feel like a failure if you try to help somebody and you can't see results. Because some people, it takes time, some people it takes the miracle of God flipping a switch and healing whatever chemical imbalance is in the mind. Um, so my advice is always just keep [00:20:00] pursuing, um, because. Eventually there's gonna be a breakthrough it because somebody that's in that mode is going to see that they're not gonna give up and that's going to fly directly in the face of so many of the inner voices or, or the self-talk of, I'm not worth it, nobody's gonna really care. Or I, I'm a burden. But when you're continually pursuing, you are speaking against all that and you're giving evidence against that case. And we all know, especially, uh, as Christians, that those voices are of the enemy. So they're all mm-hmm. Of the king of lies. Yes. And when you can step in and bring the truth and bring the light, the enemy has no footing left. So that's always my advice, is just to keep pursuing him. It's worth it. It's worth being able to pursue somebody and give them [00:21:00] a chance to hope and a chance to fight against the lies of the enemy. Um, I never know what to say to somebody that's struggling with depression. I'm always afraid that I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Right. Um, so those, those suggestions are really, valuable because. I don't wanna push them too far, but I want them to know that I care. So, yeah. And, and here's the thing, and this is something that I, whenever I talk to people, I, I try to take this burden off your shoulders. It's not your job to save them. It's not your job to rescue them. It's your job to be there and let God do the saving. It is not, it's not your job. So whatever words you say, whatever things you say, it's not gonna matter because it's not gonna be really remembered. The mistakes or, or the, the bad choice words or whatever you say that doesn't [00:22:00] work, quote unquote work, it's not gonna matter. What's gonna matter is that person that you're pursuing, that you're fighting for is gonna remember that you were there. They're gonna remember your presence, not so much your words. Now, there'll be some times where God will give you wisdom and they'll remember those words of wisdom, but for the most part, part, they're gonna remember that you were there. Just like when you go to a funeral and you talk to the people that are grieving, uh, whether it's the widow or the widower, or maybe it's, uh, the child that lost their parent, whatever the case may be. They don't remember the words that you said as you go in the line. They remember your face, they remember the, the calming touch on the shoulder, on the hands. They remember that you were there and it was, it is very much the same for somebody that's in the dark pit of, of depression. If you're there constantly showing them love, willing to let them have [00:23:00] what I call verbal diarrhea and just get whatever they're wrestling without. They're gonna remember that you were there and they're gonna remember that, and it's going be that evidence to say, Satan, shut up. Amen. You're not telling the truth. This person is here. They see me as valuable enough to fight through this. So you're lies of I'm not worthy. Nobody loves me, nobody will miss me. Those are lies straight from the pit of hell, and that's where you belong. That's right. Wow. No, that's, that's really helpful comparing it to, um, a funeral. 'cause, uh, I just lost my brother December 5th and, yeah, and some people, they don't know the right things to say and, but you're right. I remember that. They cared about me. But yes. The fact that they took time to say, I'm praying for you, or let us know if there's anything we can do to help you meant a lot. So I appreciate that [00:24:00] advice for sure. Let's switch over something a little funnier. Sure. Okay. Than a funeral. Um, so speaking of Robin Williams, he was a guest on. Whose line is it anyway, and it was my favorite episode ever. And you started a Christian version of that show. Tell me more about that. Absolutely. So when I, uh, rededicated my life to the Lord in January of 2013, I knew that performing and being on stage was my calling. God was going to. Keep me in front of people, keep me entertaining people, but he's changing and he changed the reason why, instead of trying to hide how I felt and hide myself, I was now gonna use comedy as a way to reveal who he is. And I had no real opportunities, uh, in Beckley, West Virginia. Nothing against West Virginia. Uh, [00:25:00] I have a lot of friends back there. I had a lot of great experiences, but it wasn't where God wanted me. And so I was like, so God, where do I go? Do I go to Roanoke, Virginia, which is about three hours west in, uh, west in, in west in Virginia. Excuse me. And, uh, that's where my mom lived. Do I just move in with her and start over? And it was kind of like. You could, but that's not really where you belong. So I kept, like reading Rick Warren's book, I kept reading the Bible and finally in a, in a conversation, my sister, who doesn't really have a relationship with the Lord, but he used her. She said, well, if you want to, you can move up here to Chicago in, in, uh, start over here. And I said, are you sure? 'cause she was going to college at the time and I would be moving in on staying on her couch in her studio apartment. And I was like, are you sure? She's like, yeah, if, if you need. A new, you know, new start. And so six weeks later I left, uh, [00:26:00] West Virginia, everything I could pack in my truck I brought up. And I started completely over in, um, in March of 2013. And it was shortly thereafter, I started pursuing acting opportunities and opportunities to be in front of people. A couple of mo short films I got into, I realized after accepting the part, I shouldn't have done this role. Uh, this will be something that if I ever become famous, will be one of those things that they play to, to tease you when you get like a lifetime achievement award. Oh, yeah. Um, and then through Craigslist I connected with a, a, a guy, um, named Ryan McChesney. And he and I, uh, discussed, you know, doing, uh, movies together or something like that, uh, faith-based, and we said, well, we both like improv. He had gone through the second 30. Second City, Chicago Conservatory. I had, um, done a few classes at Second City, but uh, most of my acting and performing training [00:27:00] came from eight years of, uh, pro wrestling in, uh, West Virginia and Virginia. Um, so we thought, well, what if we started a faith-based improv team? There's nothing like that in Chicago. And we thought that there was almost nothing like that in the rest of the world. So, uh, we decided to start trying to cast and we, uh, brought two more people on. And my church at that time was, uh, very, uh, gracious in allow, allowing us free reign to use a building for rehearsals or anything else we wanted to do. And so we just started, uh. Creating an improv team and for anybody that's not really familiar with improv, uh, uh, Diana, as you mentioned, uh, whose line is it anyway, is kind of the same kind of improv that we do where it's, uh, game base where they'll give us a game with a scenario and certain rules within that game to follow, and the rest we make up. We make up the characters. The dialogue is completely made up. And the idea is not to try to be funny, but just to [00:28:00] try to respond in the moment because that's where the funny's gonna come from, is that just that creative mind that we have. It's going to find things that are funny in our natural reactions. And so what we do is we just create scenarios. It's basically like. A more organized way to play, pretend. Uh, we create characters, voices, points of view. And so we, and we don't do it based on the Bible because we don't want to ever. Get careless and misrepresent the Bible or say something. Oh, okay. That's fair. Uh, we don't wanna ever come across as a Christian improv team that is, uh, disrespecting the Bible. So we just do clean comedy that's accessible for all ages, whether you're five or 105. Um, we want you to be able to come and enjoy and laugh. And, um, we kind of filter it through [00:29:00] Philippians four, eight, whatever's pure and lovely and praiseworthy. If it kind of fits along that, then, uh, then we're good. Um, and we just, um. We go out and use it as a ministry tool. Uh, either we open for a speaker and use laughter as a way to tear down some walls and, and make people comfortable enough that they can hear it. Mm-hmm. Or we just do pure comedy with the love and the joy of Christ and allow our presence and the fact that Christ is coming in with us to somehow reach them on a spiritual level to where they'll either ask us, why are you guys clean? Why don't you curse? Or Why don't you do innuendo or blue? Right. Or they track us down on social media and they're like, oh, they're Christian, and they're funny and they're creative. Maybe God is more than I thought he was. I'm not naturally funny. Um, my husband is, and that's the, the thing [00:30:00] is. You don't have to be funny to be good at improv, you just have to be willing to listen and respond naturally. 'cause most of what's funny in our improv at least, is that people recognize either weird quirks, uh, about themselves or about people that they know or they recognize weird characters that they're like, that's Samantha from work. Oh my gosh. Um, and, and it's that recognition of, of the human experience because. We are so much alike. There we're, we are all more alike than we are different. Mm-hmm. And when we share those experiences, we realize that we're not alone. That we're not this weird thing in the middle of the world that has no connection. When we get a room with people laughing together, even if none of them know each other. They connect, uh, on this really interesting level. When they laugh together, they don't feel alone in that room. And that's why comedy is so important and effective in [00:31:00] speaking and in ministry. If you can get, get them to laugh, there's a wall that comes down to where now they're able to receive, uh, some information or receive the word or receive the message. And, uh, you know, that's what we love to do is to either. Set the ground for, uh, the speaker to bring the word, or to just simply be a light in that room to where there's a question, why, why are they different? And, um, that's what we do now. Uh, we've been, uh, this team has been running since, uh, July of 2013. Um, we've had a lot of changes, a lot of turnover, but the, the mission has always been the same is to just use comedy to bring people closer to God. So you can, definitely use comedy to heal people in their pain. And you got connected with, salt and Light Coalition. So tell us more about that. Sure. Uh, Salton Lake Coalition [00:32:00] is an organization that works with, uh, women who have survived sex trafficking. Um, many of the women that they serve, uh, were sold into trafficking by their parents at a young age. So many of them either have a very short, if. Or maybe a non-existent childhood to, uh, draw from. So they're very stunted in ma many areas as far as emotions, uh, uh, especially the ability now to trust people. And so, and most of them obviously have been hurt. Used and abused by men. Mm-hmm. So the fact that me as a guy was asked to come in and serve the weight of that is not lost on me. But I also see absolutely see benefit because here is a man in a healthy relationship with his wife, who is in a healthy relationship with the Lord, who can come in and bring that. As a model for these women to show that it is possible that [00:33:00] not every single man is a creep that's going to hurt you. Right? So, and I, I value that ability to, and that opportunity to bring that example, uh, to them. And I teach improv as a way to improve their communication because, uh, many of them, like I said, had, are stunted either, um. Educationally, either they were, they had to drop outta school because they were doing what their handlers or pimp or whatever you wanna call 'em, were making them do. And so I go and help them improve communication. Uh. Find and develop their self-esteem. Because when you're learning improv and you're creating stuff together, you're starting to realize, wait, I have a voice. I have something to say, and the things that I say can be valuable, and that only helps to improve the self-esteem. So they start realizing that all the stuff that I've been through in the past is my past and all the work that I'm doing [00:34:00] now to get back on my feet and rebuild my life. I'm worth it because I have something to say. I have something to contribute. So we do that through improv and, and at the end of the day, they get an hour where they can laugh like kids either for the first time or laugh like kids again because. And, and it, I don't say these things to brag on me. Mm-hmm. God put me in this position. There was, there's been several times where the women have, or a couple of the women have come in and you could see that they are literally carrying their world on their back. The burdens are there, the brow was furrowed. The, you could see in their eyes that they're waiting for somebody to say that one word so that they can explode on them. Mm-hmm. And part of what they have to do is they have to participate even if they're not feeling it. So they, they still get in the circle, they still participate in the games, and you can see literally. The, [00:35:00] that facade, crack and fall, you literally see them crack up and within five minutes of participating, the burden is gone. The, the fierceness in their eyes, the the anger or the frustration, or the hurt. It fades away. And they get to forget that and realize that there's hope, that there's something bigger than what they're wrestling with in that moment. And that has been such a huge blessing for me to be a part of that for the last couple of years. And, um, and like I said, it's, it's such a blessing to, to be a man in that position, to kind of be an ambassador, literally an ambassador for Christ, to show that it's okay to. To trust again. And I, and I love doing that. That is incredible. You know, I've had some training in sex trafficking, with Mending the Soul We have a program called Princess Lost. [00:36:00] Princess Found. Oh, okay. And I didn't know anything about sex trafficking before that, or at least I thought I did know. Mm-hmm. I, I thought of what the rest of the world thinks about, you know, prostitutes or sex workers, but it really, that training had opened my eyes. Do you have a story of one of those tough nuts that crack open with your comedy improv class? Yeah. Um. Specific, I can't mention names, obviously. No. Yeah. But, uh, the one lady I think of in particular, she's a single mom. She was, uh, sold by her mom into trafficking, for sex because her mom needed a. She needed a, a fix. And so she gets involved and then she gets traded, bought, and sold. Um, and the thing wa the thing that a lot of people don't realize is [00:37:00] people who are in that life, who are stuck, who are, who are trapped, they're not always stuck in some shady building off in the corner of, of the city, right? They're, they're still out walking around, they're going to the store, but. They're in such a way that they don't think they can escape and they don't know who they can trust. Mm-hmm. They don't know if the person that they're gonna talk to to say, Hey, I need help, is connected to this person that they're, that they're, uh, enslaved by. So they feel like they can't trust anybody. Even though that they're out walking around, they're, they're stuck. And they're also, many times they're forced to take drugs. Yes. So people will dismiss them when they see 'em. Like, oh, she's just a junkie. There are a lot of junkies, but there's also a lot of women and, and some men that are on drugs, either because they're trying to cope with what they're being forced to do, or it's part of what they're required to do in [00:38:00] order to survive. Um, and, and the, the, the pimps know that when they're on drugs and they're high people will dismiss them and won't really give them two looks. So all that to say is this, this young lady, she's, I think she's in her mid twenties now. Mm-hmm. Uh, single mom struggling to get her kids back because in, in the eyes of the court system, she's just a junkie. She, it, it doesn't matter why she was on drugs, it doesn't matter what caused her to be arrested for these different things. All that matters to them is that she, you know, you were high, you were on drugs, you have this in your system, you're not fit to be a mom. So she's trying to rebuild her life, trying to get her kids back and one day, I don't know, I don't know the details 'cause I don't really talk to get to know them much, just because they're trying. You don't wanna protect them. 'cause the fewer people that know the stories, know where they are, where they're [00:39:00] from, the better for them so that they can avoid getting. Found by the people that are looking for them. Mm-hmm. Because when a woman, escapes sex trafficking, that's property in the minds of the people that quote unquote own them. Yes. And they don't like to lose property because they're losing profit. So. You know, I know very little about them. I know their, I know their first name. I know a little bit about their story. Some of their stories come out as, you know, part of the improv, but she's trying to get her life back together. She comes in and she's the one that I always envision when I talk about the cracking up. She came in and I swear, I I, there was a moment where I was worried, it was like, is she gonna fly off on me if I say the wrong thing? 'cause she just looked angry at the world. Mm-hmm. And, uh, fortunately, and obviously they're not gonna leave me in the room alone, so there's a couple of the Salton light [00:40:00] volunteers there just to supervise and to coach and say, Hey, you need to go ahead and get in a circle and, and participate. You know, this is part of the program. And so. She came in, arms are crossed and she's just looking down at the ground. And so I just changed my plan and I opened up with, uh, a warmup that I knew everyone enjoyed. Um, and it's a silly game. It's called Bippity bippity bop. And, and so this game, uh, somebody's in the middle of the circle, they go around the circle and it's, it's a quick response game. I'll look at you and, and if I say Bippity bty bop, you just have to say the word bop before I get to bop. And then there's other layers to that game. So I start the game and say, all right, so we're gonna warm up with bip bippity bop. So I go around the circle and there are a couple times where like, as I'm going around the circle, I look at her like, I'm gonna give her the, you know, [00:41:00] the, the, uh, interaction. But then I go past and then I come back, and then I get her the first time it's like pip bop. She, you know, obviously wasn't ready 'cause she's not. Fully into it. So she goes, all right, un crosses her arms, walks in the circle, starts doing it, and as soon as she starts participating you, that's when it starts cracking up. And she starts laughing and, and having fun. And she became, she was two people. The first five minutes, she was one person. And then once she started to laugh, she was a completely different person. And it's like. God, this is why, this is why I'm here. And again, it's not, Hey, Dave Ebert's wonderful. You know, toot the horns. It's like, God put me in this position to use my testimony, my story to, and my experiences to try to help in the healing process of, of some women that desperately need healing and desperately need to know the love of [00:42:00] Jesus. I love that story. You know, the biggest thing I learned in, in my training that I went through was a lot of these women are in this predicament. At no fault of their own, they were mm-hmm. They were groomed or they were kidnapped, or they were, you know, trafficked by somebody that they trusted. Mm-hmm. Or they should have been able to trust and that these, these ladies and some gentlemen, by the way, are people. Valuable people, loved by God. They're not trash and not somebody that we throw away or toss aside, they are, they are children of God and they need Jesus too. Yeah. And, and these are all people that, and I, I don't like think, or in my heart, I don't believe that Jesus means this. In his language, but he's talking to us in our language when he talks about the least of these. Mm-hmm. Because he loves us and [00:43:00] God loves us equally. And there is no true least in God's kingdom. But I think it's, it's Jesus dumbing down the language so that we would understand. And that's why he is like what you do to the least of these you do to me. So yeah, there are people who. Are out there who are high on their own accord, doing their own thing, that are just throwing their lives away because they think it's fun. But you don't know until you know. So don't, I would just ask, never dismiss somebody because they look like a junkie. Mm-hmm. Or they look like they've made some bad choices. 'cause maybe they have, or maybe they're stuck in a situation. And I would always encourage, if nothing else, pray for them. Mm-hmm. And maybe in that prayer time, God's like, Hey, that that's somebody that needs you. But if you're willing to just dismiss everybody 'cause they look like they're scarred from injections or they, their face is broken out from different [00:44:00] things, if you just dismiss 'em automatically, then you're blocking God from reaching you to tell you, hey, they need your help, and God's just gonna have to find somebody else. And you're gonna miss the blessed opportunity to reach somebody that needs the love of Christ. Amen. What are you up to now? You have any new projects in the works coming down the pike? When you said, what are you up to now? I was gonna say six foot two. Um, yeah. Right now, uh, because of, uh, the global thing that's going on and I'm in Illinois, so. Theaters aren't open. We're not doing much as far as the comedy. Um, you know, so everybody's kind of focusing on their family. One of the things I have been doing is connecting with other Christian improvisers and, uh, we're, uh, doing. Semi, uh, maybe once a month. Uh, comedy shows where we just get together and we've never practiced before. We've never rehearsed, but we're gonna [00:45:00] put out, uh, some shows where people can just watch online, watch us improvise and participate. Uh, those, uh, will broadcast live on my Facebook page, and I'll advertise those that you know about a week in advance once we get people able to commit to a date. Um. And the, our first one that we did, we had somebody from West Virginia, somebody from Arkansas, two people from Texas, and Oh, had one person, uh, from Ohio, I believe. So we had like a conglomerate of people from all over the, the nation coming in. Uh, we've never practiced before, but we did improv and. Improv and Christianity are so much alike because to do good improv and to be a good Christian, quote unquote good Christian, you need humility. You need to be willing to support the other person, and you need to be willing to love the other person so that they're successful. Um, so when you come into an improv stage as a Christian [00:46:00] improviser. I mean, you've got all the tools just built in. And so we go, we perform online, we're willing to support each other and it makes it really fun. Now, the way we do it, we don't have crowd, you know, reaction, but because we're together, we kind of know what's funny and we're like, okay, this is, you know, we can laugh at each other. And, uh, just really a lot of fun. It's nothing like the real improv of being on stage and no. Intimate experience, but it's a good substitute. It, it's a good gap filler until we can get past all of what's going on. Yeah. Saw your, your post on, Christian Creatives are on the same group. Yeah. And I'm gonna see if I can try and watch that. That'll be fun. This has been great. I, I so appreciate you coming on the show today and putting up with the, uh, the Zoom demons earlier, and I know you don't do this for, [00:47:00] reward or pat's on the back, but. From me to you, thank you so much for what you do for the Lord and what you do for these ladies, because you are changing people's lives and making a difference. So thank you very much. Thank you. So tell the folks how they can connect with you if they wanna know more information about your ministry. Sure. Well, I actually have three primary things that I'm involved with. GIF for Glory is the kind of the umbrella over everything. Uh, you can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at gifts, the number four, glory. And uh, that's where my podcast is. That's, uh, kind of the over um. Corp corporate umbrella over, um, my personal, uh, speaking in improv coaching where you can find me at, real Dave Ebert. Um, there's actually another comedian who's also from the Midwest, uh, not a Christian, [00:48:00] uh, who's, his name is, uh, Dave or David Ebert. So, uh, so I beat him to the punch and I took the real Dave Ebert. Oh, glad you mentioned that. Um, which is hilarious. 'cause on Twitter I'll often get tagged in things that. I have nothing to do with Christianity or ministry, and it's like kind of embarrassing. Totally. And so I'll respond and I'll be like, Hey, I think you meant this guy. Um, but uh, thanks so much for the shout out. You don't want the credit for some dirty joke. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I, I. Unfortunately, before Christ really took over my life there, I did say quite a few dirty jokes, especially in wrestling locking rooms. Um, but uh, that's washed by the blood and forgiven and mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. Uh, so at real, Dave Ebert is how you can find me. And there is one thing I do like to, uh, share on any every interview. Is, um, if there's somebody out there that hears this podcast and you're [00:49:00] somebody that's wrestling with depression or considering suicide, uh, my email box is open to you, uh, 24 hours a day. Uh, it goes directly to my phone, and this is an email address. I'll always keep active. So if in 2035 somebody picks up this podcast, that email will be available barring rapture. Um. Yeah, and I say that tongue in cheek, but, uh, if you're somebody that's wrestling, I really want to hear from you and wanna walk you through it. Uh, my email address is Dave at gifts, the number four glory.com. dave@giftsforglory.com. And, uh, I'm not gonna preach at you. I'm not gonna just copy and paste a bunch of scripture. I just want to hear what your story is and I wanna walk with you through it. I know that. In my depression. For me, I feel like had somebody had that option where I could talk to somebody that didn't know me, that didn't have preconceived ideas, that I'm, I would've been willing to just open up. And I'm [00:50:00] hoping that, uh, even one person, if you need that and you just, and I refer to it earlier, that verbal diarrhea, just like, let let it pour out. Uh, my dad was a military man. I was in wrestling for eight years. There's not a curse word I haven't heard. So if you need to curse in your email, don't feel like, oh, he's a pastor. I gotta edit. No, don't worry about that. Just tell me what you're want. A safe person, uh, yeah, and I wanna be there and I want to help in any way I can. If it's just listening and reading your email and just sending a few words back, that's what I wanna do. So that's open for you for, and if you're somebody that knows somebody that's not able to ask for help, uh, you know, contact me and I'll be happy to, uh, to do what I can. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for, for being a resource for, for the listeners, and I hope those that are listening will take advantage of that opportunity. And I love your podcast. [00:51:00] I listen to your podcast every week and you have some great guests on there. And we seem to agree on a lot of, um, things that I won't mention. I don't talk about politics on the show, but yeah. We seem to be on the same page on a lot of things. So thanks again for, for coming on the show tonight. Thank you so much. You as well. And, uh, I hope that, uh, uh, DSW Ministries takes off in the new year and that, uh, you meet every goal that, you've, that you've set forth. God bless you, Dave. Now I'll put all of his information in the show notes for everybody. You are never a victim when you choose to take action. Remember that friends, so we will see you all next week. God bless. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please [00:52:00] hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Dans cet épisode de Sensées, Jenny Chammas, mastercoach certifiée et fondatrice de Coachappy, reçoit Cloé Brami, oncologue médicale, docteure en psychologie et fondatrice de Mû Médecine, la première école de santé intégrative en France dédiée aux professionnels de santé. Ensemble, elles explorent une question essentielle : comment entreprendre et prendre soin des autres sans s'oublier soi-même ?À travers cette conversation intime et sincère, deux femmes passionnées par l'humain croisent leurs regards sur la manière de créer, de diriger et de contribuer depuis le cœur. Entre médecine intégrative, coaching et leadership féminin, elles partagent une vision commune : celle d'un monde professionnel plus conscient, plus ancré, et plus respectueux de la santé mentale et du corps.Ce que vous saurez faire après écoute :– Comprendre comment entreprendre au service des autres tout en respectant votre écologie intérieure.– Identifier les signes d'épuisement liés au don de soi et apprendre à poser des limites.– Réconcilier tête, cœur et corps pour incarner un leadership plus humain et durable.– Explorer la relation entre soin, argent et valeur, et dépasser les croyances limitantes autour de la rémunération dans les métiers du care.– Découvrir comment les pratiques de pleine conscience, de méditation ou de yoga peuvent nourrir votre équilibre et votre impact.Cloé Brami partage son parcours de médecin, chercheuse et entrepreneure, et Jenny Chammas celui de coach et mentor pour les femmes leaders. Ensemble, elles invitent à repenser notre rapport au travail, à la réussite et au soin, dans une société où la performance laisse souvent peu de place à la lenteur et à la sensibilité.Un épisode inspirant pour toutes celles qui veulent œuvrer depuis l'amour, conjuguer impact et bien-être, et faire rimer engagement avec douceur.Pour découvrir le travail de Cloé Brami : https://www.mumedecine.orgPour en savoir plus sur les accompagnements de Coachappy : https://jennychammas.com****Rejoignez la newsletter Sensées : elle vous donne accès à un concentré de coaching, d'inspiration et à un workshop offert chaque mois. Inscrivez-vous gratuitement en cliquant ici. Tout comme sur le podcast Sensées, on y parle de leadership, d'ambition, de confiance en soi, de motivation, de carrière, d'outils de développement personnel, de management, de prise de poste, de prise de parole, et. : bref, de tout ce qui concerne le quotidien des femmes ambitieuses.***Sensées, c'est aussi un programme de coaching pour les femmes dirigeantes, top managers et entrepreneures. Au sein du programme Sensées, vous êtes accompagnée en petit groupe ET en individuel dans votre croissance professionnelle. Vous êtes aussi formée et mentorée pour incarner pleinement votre leadership, avec les maîtres mots sérénité, plaisir, hauteur et impact. Intéressée ? Cliquez ici pour en savoir plus.**Notre guide "10 leviers essentiels pour les décideuses" est un véritable concentré d'outils de coaching et de mentoring, les mêmes que nous utilisons dans le programme Sensées. Il est conçu pour toutes les directrices, dirigeantes et entrepreneures qui sont fatiguées de porter seules les responsabilités. Si vous avez l'impression que votre quotidien vous échappe petit à petit, ce guide est fait pour vous. Cliquez ici pour obtenir votre exemplaire offert !*Vous représentez une entreprise et souhaitez développer le leadership de vos talents féminins ? : cliquez ici.Hébergé par Audiomeans. Visitez audiomeans.fr/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Milk production is up 4.2% year over year, components are climbing and prices are falling. As holiday orders wrap up and we head into the long winter, The Milk Check team digs into whether dairy markets have already found a floor, or if there's still another leg down to go. With milk products everywhere (except for whey), the Jacoby team shares where the market is and where we're going. They churn through: Butter at $1.50 and what heavy cream and higher components mean after the holidays Why cheese feels like a calm before the storm, and how far Class III could grind lower Nonfat and skim: long milk, growing inventories and buyers shopping the cheapest origin Why whey proteins are the outlier, with tight supply, strong demand and GLP-1 tailwinds Global milk growth, clustered demand (Ramadan, Chinese New Year, Super Bowl) and who blinks first between the U.S. and Europe In this episode of The Milk Check, host Ted Jacoby III is joined by Joe Maixner, Jacob Menge, Diego Carvallo, Josh White and Mike Brown for a rapid-fire market session on butter, cheese, nonfat and proteins. Listen now for The Milk Check's latest market read on butter, cheese, nonfat and whey. Got questions? We'd love to hear them. Submit below, and we might answer it on the show. Ask The Milk Check Ted Jacoby III: Welcome back, everybody, to The Milk Check podcast. Today we’re gonna have a market discussion. It is November 10th. We are in the last couple of weeks of the quote-unquote busy season, starting to get a feel for what we think is gonna happen to dairy markets as holiday orders are filled, and we transition into the long-term period of the year. In the last few weeks, we’ve actually seen prices drop, but it feels like butter’s kind of dropped down to about a $1.50/lb and seems to find at least a brief floor. We’ll talk to Joe and find out if Joe thinks we’re gonna stick around here for a while. The cheese market was up in the $1.80s/lb. It’s dropped to a little below $1.70, starting to hit a little bit of resistance. Jake will share with us a little bit about what we think is happening with cheese going forward. Nonfat dropped a little bit down to [00:01:00], about what Diego, about a $1.10/lb and had a little bounce off its floor. Meanwhile, the whey complex just continues to go up. We’ll check in with Josh and find out what’s going on there. Well, let’s go ahead and start with milk production. We just got released today, the September milk production, and it says it’s up 4.2%, which is a very, very big number. It’s November; milk is longer than it usually is this time of year. Usually, it’s quite tight, and it’s not quite tight, but I wouldn’t call it long. However, all the signs are there that once we get past the fall holiday order season, milk could get quite long. If September milk is up 4.2%, I think it’s safe to say that if that continues, we will be quite long milk as we transition from the typical seasonal tightness of the fall into the winter and the flush of the spring. 4.2% is a big number, and that’s not even taking into account the fact that the solids in the milk are up as well. That’s not the kind of tone that a dairy farmer wants us to set as we’re talking about what supply and demand looks like, but there’s a lot of milk out there, [00:02:00] Joe, does that mean there’s a lot of butter out there, too? Joe Maixner: Well, there’s still a lot of butter out there; sounds like there’s going to be a lot more butter coming soon. If milk’s up 4%, cream was heavy all of last winter and into last Spring, extremely heavy. If we have higher components, more milk, and we’ve got a full amount of milk coming outta California as well after coming off of bird flu last year, there’s just gonna be that much more cream in the system and more getting pushed back into the churns. So, it’s a very good possibility that we’re gonna go even lower than where we currently are. Volume seems to be trading well. The cream demand has been fairly steady, going into cultured products and the shorter shelf-life products. Cream’s still long, but it’s not swimming yet. Ted Jacoby III: Will we hold this $1.50 area through Thanksgiving, you think? Joe Maixner: Yeah, it seems like we’ve hit a spot where buyers are willing to step in. So, there’s a good chance that we could hang around this $1.50 area for the next couple of weeks. Once the last little spurt of holiday demand is over, we’re gonna take another leg lower. Ted Jacoby III: Okay. Jake, what about [00:03:00] cheese? Jacob Menge: I think we had a little reprieve from some cheese bearishness with the holiday demand. It’s tough, though, especially with this wall of milk that’s headed our way. Does it seem like the bottom’s ready to drop out? Probably not yet. But it still seems like it’s a possibility. It almost seems like the call before the storm. Ted Jacoby III: What you’re saying is: we’ve already dropped quite a bit, but we’re in typical low points, but it’s possible, considering the amount of supply coming our way, that there’s still another cliff to negotiate, and we could go a lot lower when it comes to Class III milk and cheese prices. Jacob Menge: If you zoom out a ways, going back to mid-2022, we’ve really not liked to go below that $1.55 level on futures. We’re kind of at another support level at this $1.65. Those seem like our two support areas, historically, for the last 3, 4 years. So, it’s probably gonna be one of those grinds lower if we move lower from here, versus that $1.85 to $1.65 was almost an air pocket drop. [00:04:00] It seems like the market’s gonna have to earn it if it moves lower from here, but it does seem like a possibility. Ted Jacoby III: When we get down to these levels, this usually tends to form the floor, and if we have so much cheese out there and so much milk out there that we’re gonna go lower from here, it’s probably not an air pocket drop; it’s probably a grind lower from here. Jacob Menge: Yeah, I think our lows, on the futures, for the past 4 years have been that $1.55. Don’t quote me on that, gimme a couple of cents on either side of that. But that means we got a dime from here to hit those five-year lows, you know, besides COVID. There’s a lot to be said for technical trading at those levels. So, it would take a big fundamental kind of wave supply to get us to crack that. Ted Jacoby III: Got it. Thank you. Diego. What about nonfat? What’s the international market doing? We know we have a lot of milk in North America. We have a lot of milk everywhere. And what does it mean? Diego Carvallo: Customers are also seeing the data, and it seems like they’re in no rush to buy nonfat. Right. Nonfat seems to be the product that is 00:05:00 consistently available. We haven’t seen a very tight market in several years. So, it seems customers are more concerned about other products like WPCs or maybe cheese, other products besides nonfat. So, they’re staying very hand-to-mouth. They’re being very flexible when it comes to origin and just buying spot and from the origin that offers them the cheapest skim milk powder delivered price, which, in most cases, for the past few months, has been either European or New Zealand product because of the shipment time, transit time, and tariffs. Ted Jacoby III: Has the inventory in the U.S. been building as a result? Diego Carvallo: Yes, it has, Ted. Yep. Inventory has been building. I was looking into the milk production numbers for September. California was relatively stable compared to the previous year. I think we grew by 2.5% versus the previous year. But the strong impact from avian [00:06:00] influenza was actually in October. So, that’s when we might see a big jump between California production for 2024 and California production for 2025. So, I thought the Milk Report was pretty bearish for nonfat. Next month could be as bearish or even more. I still believe that we’re gonna see a lot of product going into the dryers, and that’s gonna add pressure, and that’s gonna increase inventories for U.S. products. Ted Jacoby III: What does milk production look like in Europe? Diego Carvallo: They’re actually up quite a bit. I think their September number was also stronger than expected. I can’t recall the exact number, but it was stronger than expected, even though they have cut down on the farmer price, the FrieslandCampina, which is the number one benchmark. It still seems like, with corn moving lower, there’s still a number that incentivizes more milk production. For the next few months until we see a stronger cotton price, we’re gonna see plenty of milk from the U.S. and from Europe. Ted Jacoby III: [00:07:00] Okay, thanks. Appreciate it, Diego. Josh, so what about the protein market? Josh White: Yeah, same story. I don’t know why everybody else is having so many problems with their products because whey proteins are in demand and it continues to be very strong. WPC 80, WPI demand is outpacing supply. People are trying to book forward and can’t. By all reports, the demand on the consumer level remains pretty good. It’s a bit of an outlier. It’s definitely a mystery. A lot of the discussion centers around GLP-1 adoption in the U.S. Compared to a year ago, I think I read this morning, something like 12% of Americans are allegedly using GLP-1-related drugs for weight loss. Assuming that’s an accurate statistic, that’s a noteworthy number of people. There was a lot of discussion last year that as people come on things like Wegovy and Ozempic, at what moment do we mature to the point that people beginning their cycles of taking the drugs equal those coming off of those drugs? There’s just been a lot of headlines about more affordable access to these types of products. If that continues, that shifts this curve even a little bit further up. [00:08:00] What can reverse that trend or slow down the demand for the whey protein side? I think it takes a production response. I can imagine that any manufacturer that’s making whey-related products as a byproduct of their cheese production is exploring how to access this demand, in particular, the whey protein isolate demand. I don’t have the impression that equipment is any easier to get, and there are still plenty of obstacles in terms of making production changes at the processor side. It feels to me like at least through the first half of this year, we’re gonna continue to be under-supplied relative to the demand that’s out there. And I think it’s important to note that although we’re talking about good demand for these products, the GLP-1-related impact on the dairy market isn’t all positive. It’s certainly a positive on the whey protein side. Still, I think, as it relates to consumer demand for butterfat, cheese products, and some of the other snack foods that dairy products are used in, in the CPG space, people are consuming fewer calories. Throughout the rest of the world, this health and wellness [00:09:00] trend and this appetite for quality protein are everywhere. Their demand continues to be very strong internationally. Maybe a couple of other things that are noteworthy, maybe early indicators of the price stabilizing, it looks like Europe and the U.S. might be closer to parity for the first time in a while. So, we should watch that. We will see seasonal production levels start to increase a bit. I don’t know if that will one-for-one find its way into additional whey protein availability, but it certainly should help the situation as we get into heavier production months in the Northern hemisphere markets that produce these products. But other than that, demand remains very, very strong. Prices are firm. They appear they’ll continue to be through at minimum the first quarter. And I don’t think it’s going out on a ledge to say through the first half of the year. And then we’ll see what happens on the other side of it. But yeah, definitely a firm marketplace right now, Ted. Ted Jacoby III: What about milk protein concentrate, milk protein isolate? Are we starting to see the value of those products increase and close the gap between the [00:10:00] whey protein, since the whey proteins have gotten so expensive? Josh White: I’ll jump in and say we’re starting to see some early indications of that: people looking for substitutes where they can. If you’re not in these markets every day, you don’t know what products are available. If you’re in the CPG space or using it as one of many, many SKUs that you’re buying, you’re not aware of the functional properties and some of these other things. And there’s also a decision-making timeline that people have to consider. Not only are there labeling concerns and other things, but there’s a lot of protein that’s consumed as an ingredient and maybe not the primary ingredient. And oftentimes, those decisions are not easy to formulate or change, and they’re also made over larger durations of time, like annual pricing. We’ve had such a wide gap for a long enough time now that we have customers asking questions, and customers that are on the lower end of the valorization for these products are looking for substitutes. Those substitutes come in a couple of ways. They can come from substituting away from dairy, substituting for other [00:11:00] dairy or trading down to lower dairy-related protein products. We’re seeing people investigate all of them. Diego might be able to speak more precisely about what’s happening with the MPC prices. But generally speaking, the majority of people out there are starting to ask questions. I’m not so sure it’s having a material impact or moving the needle quite yet on substitution. Ted Jacoby III: Okay, well, it feels a little bit like a broken record. Milk everywhere, product everywhere except for whey, maybe that’s exactly the loop we’re in right now. Joe Maixner: We’ve talked a lot about supply and excess and whatnot, but demand, it feels like we’re increasingly teetering towards a crumbling economic situation with higher debt, people not having much discretionary income, and just overall demand being weak. Ted Jacoby III: So, if you’re looking at the demand numbers that we track, restaurant traffic is definitely down. It is clear that the economic environment we’re in, people’s pocketbooks are being stretched thin, and they’re cutting back on how often they go to restaurants and eat at [00:12:00] restaurants. Now, usually when that happens, there’s an offset into the retail side, and the retail side numbers usually go up a little bit. You are seeing that. Speaking to some of our branded customers, what they’re telling us is their sales are down, and the private label guys are saying, well, their sales are up, but frankly, not as much as they expected. The bottom has not dropped out yet. I think everybody’s watching it pretty closely. I think the industry’s concerned. I’ll leave it at that. Mike Brown: I think food service continues to be the big stickler on overall dairy sales. Grocery sales are okay. Food service continues to be weak, and that’s gonna affect us. Mm-hmm. Particularly, I think some of the high-fat products. Josh White: When we’re looking at it from the home front, it doesn’t feel real great, but if we’re looking at just how much additional milk we have globally, including out of Oceana and out of South America, and looking at how much of that surplus milk globally is being consumed in Asia right now, I mean they’ve been buying I wonder if that points to some brightness, at least some positives? Now, I also am a little [00:13:00] concerned that we have a consolidation of demand events, with Chinese New Year buying at the same time that Ramadan continues to move earlier and earlier every year. And prices are low right now. Feels like we might have a big concentration of demand that’s meant to satisfy local needs in the early part of 2026, but there has been a lot of international trade. Ted Jacoby III: I think you’re absolutely right. Ramadan and the Chinese New Year are both in February. Diego Carvallo: The word in the street, Ted, is that most of the Ramadan and New Year’s demand is gonna be fulfilled by the middle of November. Ted Jacoby III: In other words, by the time we get to January 1st, those orders are gone. Mike Brown: Yeah. And Super Bowl is 10 days before the start of Ramadan in the Chinese New Year. So, they’re all pretty close together. Josh White: I went back to saying that, hey, we’ve got a lot of milk globally, every surplus region’s producing more milk than expected. You mentioned earlier, Ted, that doesn’t even account for the component growth that we have here. That’s been fairly impressive. [00:14:00] What’s been interesting about that is it hasn’t felt this heavy. You might believe, well, it doesn’t feel as heavy because the Northern Hemisphere is at its low milk production points. Maybe it doesn’t feel as heavy because we’ve got a concentration of additional demand, but we’re trading a lot of anticipatory supply concerns. We’re really trading the fact that tomorrow we’re worried we have a lot of incremental milk, globally, that we don’t necessarily know where we’re gonna go with it. That’s not a reason to get bullish, to be super clear, but I do think that if we’re thinking through vulnerabilities in the market, that might be one. Ted Jacoby III: I would agree with that. I think there are three things that are probably keeping this market from going straight to the bottom. One, as you said, we’re at the low point seasonally for milk production in the Northern Hemisphere. Two, we are at the high point for demand everywhere. And three, you get to a certain point, and I think we are there in all products, we may actually be passed there in butter, but we are there in cheese, I think we’re there in nonfat, where [00:15:00] in order to go lower, you need to build up supply to the point where the inventories become actually burdensome, and I don’t think they have become burdensome yet, but I would expect that sometime in the first quarter of 2026, they will. You’ll start hearing reports that warehouses are full. You’ll start hearing reports that, from a cashflow perspective, whether it’s traders, whether it’s manufacturers, you have people who just need to dump inventory because they don’t have the cash flow to continue to hold inventory. Those are the things that drive markets to their lows. And so, if you think about the old saying: the cure for high prices is high prices, and the cure for low prices is low prices, that’s when you find out what the low price is, and then you go to that place that sends the strongest supply signal possible to suppliers that they need to cut back. Mike Brown: I was at a cattle show of all things this weekend and was talking with someone about feeding palm oil to get butterfat. His rule of thumb was that a pound of palm oil costs about a dollar, and you get about a 00:16:00 three-to-five-point increase in fat test from that. So, if you say 0.4 and you’re a 90-pound Holstein herd, that’s 0.36 pounds of fat. So, you’re paying a dollar to produce, there’s roughly 50, 60 cents worth of butter fat. So, we may start to see that come into conversations on rations. Josh White: And if we’re looking for optimism, I think that formula is pretty openly discussed in Europe as well. So, you’ve got a situation now where you have the on-farm milk price that is beginning to drop, the signals there that it needs to come down. It’s moving at a decent clip, to Diego’s point, maybe not enough to make any major change yet, but for planning purposes, things like feeding for fat might be a bit more vulnerable going forward there. So yeah, if we’re looking for what could start to correct our oversupply situation or what could potentially stabilize or support the market, we need time. I think that’s the most important thing that needs to happen, is we need time, and we need a milk price that curtails any additional production growth [00:17:00] for the moment so that demand can catch up. We talked about the U.S. situation and how the consumer spending situation doesn’t feel great. But globally, per capita butterfat consumption globally is growing. Per capita protein consumption is growing. We just need to give the demand time to catch up. Inventories might be starting to build, but they’re nowhere nearcumbersome. I would actually argue, our supply chain is still very thin. I wouldn’t even argue that we’re getting to a point where we’re normal by historical standards. I think that we have a pretty thin supply chain, and that’s everything from measurable inventory and reports, like cold storage reports and manufacturing stocks here in the U.S., but all the way through the pipeline. I don’t believe that many end users are sitting on excess product or have too many days in inventory. I think they’ve been quite comfortable buying hand-to-mouth. And the only product they’re being punished on right now for that is whey proteins. Ted Jacoby III: I think you’re right, Josh. I would agree with that statement. I think butter [00:18:00] is somewhat of an exception. Joe Maixner: I don’t know. Butter, it just depends on product mix, right? It’s CME eligible salted bulk. I think overall inventories are not burdensome. But we do have too much older CME-eligible salted bulk butter out there. Ted Jacoby III: That’s actually where I’m going, Joe. What do butter manufacturers do if they’re worried about having produced too many quarters and too many solids? They’ll just produce bulk. And so bulk is the overflow because they know the worst-case scenario, they can dump it onto the CME. And so that is where we end up with excess surplus, just like we get the same with a cheddar block in the cheese market. Josh White: How is international demand for U.S. butter at the moment, Joe, compared to where you would expect it to be and compared to where we were a few months ago? Joe Maixner: It’s steady right now. New inquiries are still coming in, but inquiries have lessened compared to a month or two ago; there’s a lot being made and shipping right now. International markets are starting to open their eyes to something other than [00:19:00] 82%. They’re starting to expand into the 80% because they are finally starting to realize that the numbers that they see on the futures don’t equate to the numbers they pay for an 82% product. And so anybody that’s really just using it for solids, for processing, is starting to convert, which is helping clean up some of that 80% salted butter, but it’s still not fast enough to really move the needle yet. Josh White: So, if the outlook for butterfat really doesn’t have any material upside in the near future, and we’re currently looking at Class III and IV prices, where they’re at, when do we start to impact the U.S. producer’s decision on making incremental milk beyond just the fat component? Are we close or are we still a long way away? Jacob Menge: Look at this Milk Production Report. We are up 268,000 head since June of 2024. That just keeps going up. There was an August revision of 71,000 head higher. The answer is a pretty [00:20:00] conclusive, not yet. I’m looking at the last time, September milk production beat the prior month, so beat August, which was 2001. And it just did that; September just beat August, and the last time it did that was 2001. Josh White: We’re not even talking about adjusted for components. Jacob Menge: That is correct. Joe Maixner: I can’t imagine that $16 to $17 Class III causes any worries right now for the farmers, with $4 corn and $1,200 feeder calves. Mike Brown: As long as you’re in a Class III market, if you’re heavy Class IV, your price isn’t $17. It depends on where you’re located, Joe. But for the most part, if you’re in a cheese market, it’s still decent. You’re right because the whey is also contributing a lot to that Class III price right now with a 70¢ whey market. Ted Jacoby III: Yeah. And the cows are all increasing in the states where there is increased processing capacity as well. Jacob Menge: These guys have had time to hedge this, and they still almost can hedge this, right? Going into later next year, where I think it’s gotta be at a point where they can’t hedge at a profit, and then you’ve [00:21:00] really got issues. Josh White: If we’re in a situation where the global economic outlook isn’t great, so that means we shouldn’t expect any major demand booms to pull dairy up We’re realizing supply growth in all major dairy surplus regions; the only correction for this is supply. And who’s the first to react? The obvious answer is it’s gonna be head-to-head with Europe and the U.S. Who breaks first? These are very, very different markets with different drivers, and they’re actually experiencing growth for different reasons related to the big picture, but different reasons. Europe just went through a situation where its butterfat carried the day. And butterfat was incredibly high, much higher than the U.S. price. They were an importer of fat from New Zealand, bringing in a noteworthy amount of product. And then now going into this year, they’ve seen a really significant drop, well below the support level that most traders would’ve held for butterfat. You assume [00:22:00] that they’re not gonna import a bunch of that product, forcing that product on the rest of the market. They’re going through a pretty negative situation right now as well. One thing you can’t forget about the European producer is that if you kill cows, it’s really tough to replace them, not for the same reasons we have in the U.S., that right now it’s just difficult to compete with beef. But they don’t wanna make those changes for a lot of regulatory reasons. So, they’re gonna hang on as long as possible. The U.S. model, we’re not in pain yet, generally speaking. Some smaller producers might look at higher beef prices and lower dairy outlook as an opportunity to exit. But there is way more structural expansion in motion or down the line that I think that train’s moving down the tracks. So, it’ll be really interesting to see if and who breaks first between the North American market and the European market. Ted Jacoby III: My hunch is it’s the U.S. market. I still think we’re a minimum of six months away, maybe even 12 to 18. Now there are signs, like you look at the Milk Production Report, the state of Washington is down [00:23:00] 8.5%. So, there are places where we are losing cows. Even though the majority of the country has gained cows recently, I would argue that with the drop in the butter price and the weakness in the nonfat market, California is the next one that I think will follow. They’ll struggle to get a decent milk price given that those are the two dominant price drivers for the California market. Diego Carvallo: But if you look at Idaho’s strongly up. So, it seems like a movement between Washington and Idaho. Ted Jacoby III: I think you could be right. Joe Maixner: California, their numbers this month were slightly higher than their peak production year 22. They’re on the uptrend. That’s a large ship that takes a while to turn around. Ted Jacoby III: I don’t disagree. I also think you’re still measuring against bird flu in California. You could argue that it may be a little artificially high. Joe Maixner: I actually questioned that because of the lower increase than I had anticipated for the September number, and bird flu didn’t actually start in California until October. So, we will see even larger increases next month forward in California. They [00:24:00] have that Class I plant that they opened as well out there. Mike Brown: They’re also getting hit with a big assessment, a lot of the producers out there, because the butter market changed, there’s been a lot of inventory loss, and that’s gonna hurt some producers as well. No one I talk to in California is worried about finding milk. They’re worried about finding a place to put it right now. Ted Jacoby III: I don’t think that’s isolated to being a California problem right now. Mike Brown: I would agree. You’re right. Ted Jacoby III: On that note, I think it’s a good time to wrap. Thanks, everybody, for joining us this week. Look forward to talking to you guys again soon. Thank you.

Ped, Burk and Tommy get a little serious in the cold open before Burk drops the perfect song on us out the gates. Tom and Adam then talk about their love for muk bang in a real brotherly love moment. We feel seen. Burk shares quite possibly the greatest catfishing story of all-time. A discussion about actors and cheaters. Tom's new tariff policy after being re-elected. And more intro thoughts! In the MEAT, Mm!, the boys reminisce on their early days in social media, being the first generation to have MSN Messenger, Facebook, how glorious it was, and how it enhanced the 2000s high school and college experience. Then Twitter came along and things got wild. Do you remember your first slow dance? Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

When it comes to assessing practice success, understanding various returns on investment is critical. Kiera and Kristy explain what the Dental A-Team is looking for when it comes to understanding the success (or lack thereof) of various investments. They specifically touch on the power of five different KPIs that'll keep your practice in line. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: K iera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today it's the KK podcast. Kiera and Kristy hanging out today. Kristy, how you doing today?   DAT Kristy (00:10) Good, it's a good day.   Kiera Dent (00:12) It's a great day. you like, I feel like I want to like KK. I mean, it's not, it's only two K's everybody listening, but I feel like it's like the Kit Kat. I don't know. It feels kind of like that between you and me. don't know why, but yeah, double the, or we could be like double mint, like double the flavor, double the fun. It's Kieran Kristy on the pod. Like there's just the two of us cause there's no other K names in the consultant world. It's just Kieran Kristy. So I mean, we got   DAT Kristy (00:36) That's right.   Kari and Kristy, you got it.   Kiera Dent (00:40) Kiera and Dana, so that could be my initials, cute. Then there's Kiera and Trish, but there's Trish and Tiffanie. Then there's Kiera and Brittany, no BS, Britt, she's on her own realm. And then we've got Monica. So, see, it's the two Ks, it's the double the, like, we're just gonna have fun here. Like, you get two of us, two brilliant brains. And believe it or not, Kristy and I actually might just be rivaling for like some of the biggest gains this quarter, so.   DAT Kristy (00:55) Yes, it does.   Kiera Dent (01:07) ⁓ not that we're here just for gains on clients, but Kristy does give me a run for my money, which all the consultants do. And Kristy's just like, she's, she's coming on hot this, this quarter. So I thought it'd be really fun, Kristy, for us to kind of dig into. Like either quarterly or twice a year annual reviews that we kind of do with clients and how you assess it. And we show the ROI that clients are getting, just cause I think it's important for clients to see like, what should you be assessing in your practice quarterly or two times a year?   How's the practice going? And Kristy, I think you're really, really strong in this. And I think you're really talented at looking at the practice and about their numbers and about, like, you love that. You and I will geek about numbers all day long, which is why it's the KK club, the KitKat club. Like we're here for the numbers. We're here for the fun. ⁓ But yeah, Kristy, kind of take it away of how do you set this up? What do you look at with clients when you're assessing their practices? Because always client style is like, I want ROI on consulting. And you do like,   amazing job at showing that ROI. So kind of take it away of what do we look at? How do we determine ROI? And I know this is your jam. This is what you love to do.   DAT Kristy (02:15) I love it. You're right. I do. You know, we all.   Kiera Dent (02:18) Do hear that little   giggle? I hope everybody heard that. Like that's Kristy's like. Kristy lives for this stuff and it makes me so happy because I do too. Like it's fun. It's fun to get the gains.   DAT Kristy (02:28) Yeah,   absolutely. Well, you and I have talked about this before. So many doctors just look   their bank account to see if they're on track or off track. And it's such a false sense of security looking at or lack of security, one of the two. with that being said, ⁓ there truly is like five   Kiera Dent (02:36) you   Mm-hmm.   DAT Kristy (02:48) KPIs that we're going to look at. And a couple of them are lag measures. A couple of them are lead measures.   ⁓ first view would be production net production collections. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (03:01) Yeah, don't even get into that gross. We don't want gains that are fake all y'all, okay? Like get   out. ⁓ Jason and I were talking the other day about guys, there's this, okay, Kristy, I'm gonna go on Tanger for a second. There's this really attractive actor on this show we're watching and I'm like, truly I was so disappointed when they kind of cut him from a couple episodes. I was like, no, she's gotta get back together with this guy because he's so good looking. And my husband and I, we look, because he looks pretty short.   DAT Kristy (03:13) you   Kiera Dent (03:28) So I like scoped him and I was like, how tall is this guy? And he says he's six foot and Jason's like, there's no way he's six foot. He's like, but do you ever hear some guy come in and they're like, yeah, I'm like 5'11". He's like, no, they all push them to the six foot. And I feel like that's what gross production is. It's like all of us are like, yeah, like I'm basically six foot. Yeah, I'm basically like a millionaire. Yeah, I'm basically there. Like, so we're talking, no, get out. We're here for like actual gains that you're actually getting net production.   my little side tangent, it's okay. It's okay if you're 5'10". It's okay if you're 5'9". It's okay if you're 5'11". We in production want to know the real number that we can actually collect, not the artificial one that makes you feel good when you're chatting with friends. You can fluff your height, but don't fluff your production.   DAT Kristy (04:15) love that 100%. So we got the net production and then the collections,   Kiera Dent (04:16) you   DAT Kristy (04:22) dollar for dollar percentage. Obviously we want them to be 98 % or higher. And then on the flip side, where are we diagnosing? What's our case acceptance? And so many people just look at the percent of case acceptance, but I also want to look at the dollars of what you're diagnosing because is it enough to reach your goal?   you know, where's your profit point at and what do we need to hit? Because we can celebrate 100 % case acceptance, which I don't think anybody ever has 100%, but you know, if you're getting 50 % case acceptance, which is still a very good percentage, 50 % of what? If we need to hit 150 every month and we're only hitting 100, it's not enough to get us there. So those would be the main five KPIs that   ⁓ tell us the health of your practice, right? And go ahead, care.   Kiera Dent (05:18) I   was gonna say, and Kristy, as you said that, diagnosing, don't think people realize is as important as it is. For whatever goal you wanna hit, there's a industry standard that you need to diagnose three times what you wanna produce. So if you wanna produce 100 grand, you need to be diagnosing 300,000 minimum to be able to get there, and you better hope you've got a great treatment coordinator who can close. And this is actually like...   I'm gonna like give a little secret away that we'll see if people are smart enough to pick up on in future years. This is the number one thing I actually look for in a consultant. I look to see, do an interview, we give them some stats and if a consultant cannot pick up this practice like without fail, they come in and they wanna talk block scheduling, they wanna talk other things. But I need a consultant to be able to see that a lot of times the reason a practice is not hitting their goals is due to a lack of diagnosis. And another reason we do that is because   Kristy and I are not dentists and we're not here to tell you how to diagnose. We're just here to help you see that based on industry standards and what you should be diagnosing of a healthy practice. If you're not getting enough diagnosis and doctors, you've got to hear this. If you are not diagnosing enough, this is a doctor issue and we're not saying to overdiagnose, but you have to diagnose enough. If you're not diagnosing enough and there's not enough treatment coming through, your practice will not grow. And that's not your team's fault. That's a you problem.   And so making sure that you, your hygienist, you use AI, but Kristy, I'm so glad you brought that up because production collections are always easy. But what impacts that, like you said, is the diagnosis, then the case acceptance, the new patients. And that's where it says lead and lag. Like everybody's looking at the lag of production collection, but it's like, what did we do to get there? And Kristy, I love that you bring these five things up every single quarter, every single, like twice a year with your clients, because people don't realize your bank account is a lag measure.   of what you've been doing in the practice. And then like another one is your overhead and what are you spending? Because if those things are in check, but we're spending everything we're making, we're not saving for taxes. Well, yeah, that's a real fun moment. Your bank account's really gonna look bleak, even if everything's working in the practice. So I really hope people take note because it's such a good thing for people to be aware of.   DAT Kristy (07:09) .   Absolutely. to that point, Kiera, like so many people think if that number isn't where they want it, let's go get more new patients. And then they want to spend more money on more new patients. And nine times out of 10, this is exciting time of the year because we're halfway through the year. Take a look at what you did treatment plan. I mean, I see a lot of practices, you know, let's for easy math, they're diagnosing a million dollars and we've closed 500,000. Holy cow. Even if you captured, you know,   percent of that difference like what would that mean to your bottom line and this is a perfect time to take a step back and go my gosh we have five months left in the year what would that look like break it down chunk it down to simple   pieces that your team can digest and you guys have fun with it. It's all about getting patients healthier. Let's face it, you're not diagnosing things patients don't need. So let's go get it. Let's get our patients healthy and gamify it. See one more crown a day or one more implant a month. What is it? Right?   Kiera Dent (08:35) Yeah. And Kristy, I think something you do so well that I hope people heard is you're not going for the big gains. You're going for the little like squeeze the juice, like get the last bit of toothpaste out of the tube of toothpaste. And I don't think people like that's not sexy. It's like, hey, I heard this podcast that I'm supposed to like go look at these small things versus we're getting all these new patients and we signed up for marketing. Well, but like this is where the elite practices shine. This is where the like really superior   Practices go people are like here. How do you do it? How do you guys like add? 20,000 40 that I Kristy I was looking at some of your stats girl. You're like, like I said, I love a good hustle and some of your practices you're adding like 50,000 a month to their practices and that's Incredible and people like how you do it Kristy's literally telling you it's through squeezing the tube of toothpaste in these small little moves that actually are not that hard going and getting new patients and signing up for marketing and all that that to me is actually hard fixing your diagnosis   getting your whole team on board, looking to see at what our production collections are, making sure our collections are tight. Those things are way easier. They're not as fun, they're not as sexy, but way easier than having to go like hunt and fish for new patients, even though it's way more fun to tell people you signed up for marketing. It's not fun to be like, yeah, we got a new billing thing in place. Like we got our AR fixed. That's not fun to admit, but it's way fun on the bank account and the profitability side too.   DAT Kristy (09:58) Yeah,   100%. And again, ⁓ so going back to the new patients, they want to spend more money to get it. But then have you looked at like, how are we answering the phone? How are we capturing the patients that are calling? Maybe you really don't need to spend any more money to cap, you know, they're coming in, we're just not capturing them, you know, and I'm always a fan of, you know, there's the internal marketing and external.   everything Fred Joyle said it best right everything is marketing we are marketing so get real intentional and get in relationship with your patients figure out what they want and tie their care back to it you know   Kiera Dent (10:39) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I think it's brilliant. And I think it's like you said, everything we do is marketing. And so if we realize that and so many people want external marketing, and I think to me, the reason people want external marketing, and I'm not here to say not to do external marketing, I think it's a, it is a piece and a part of it. But I think it feels like a diet pill sometimes, like, let's just let's just throw money over there. And let's hope it fixes our problems. Let's out produce our problems rather than fixing our problems. And I really want people to realize like,   elite business ownership and being part of the elites, and we're not talking big practices, there's no right size to it. That all comes actually from doing these small little things and internal marketing, once again, is so good. These patients already love you. You already have a base of people that love you. And if you treat those people really well, rather than constantly going to try and swoop and get more people in, those people then refer, they refer better people to you.   It's easier. I have a practice and it was wild. They're like, Kiera, we signed up with marketing and we're trying to get it. And again, this is not a bash on any marketing companies. It is definitely necessary. ⁓ but they're like, but we're just not getting more, more new patients. Talk to another client. They're like, we, we just signed up with a marketing company and it's actually gone down. And I'm like, well, tell me what were you doing before to get patients? And they're like, we were at the church, we were in this magazine. And I'm like, well, get back in that because it was, it was showcasing the good things you're doing. It was being this like,   more B2B, it was being more connected rather than just trying to go for the masses and it's wild because internal marketing can be so much more effective if done right. And like you said, be in a relationship with your patients and know what they want. And great Google reviews, great Google reviews are your fastest, easiest marketing. So pay with Swell, like let's throw another plugin for Swell. It's been a few months since I put them in.   Go to Swell, SwellCX.com. Tell them Dental A Team sent you. Literally Zeke and I met when he founded the company. So you still get like founding prices, because that was the promise he and I made that you guys would get that. But honestly, just get your Google reviews up. Save the money. I don't know. Kristy, you and I are such birds of the same feather. That's why we're KitKat over here. We just think very similarly. And I think that's why we get very similar results as well.   DAT Kristy (12:55) Yeah, I think that the other big thing here is to recognize so many people are afraid of numbers. The members just start to tell a story and what we fail to realize is there's a system behind every one of those numbers. And if the number isn't where we want it, we need to pull up that system and figure out the system's a recipe, right? It's our cookbook. If it's not where we want it, then let's go back and figure out, did we mess up the recipe? You know, or   is the recipe, we're following it to a T and we just need to change up and find a new recipe because it's not getting the result. So ⁓ I love digging into those numbers because that tells us where we need to focus on this quarter to get the results we want.   Kiera Dent (13:40) And I really love that you said numbers just tell a story and there's a system behind the number and this makes it so much easier like going back There's a podcast I did a little while ago where I talked about the yes model and Dental A Team to help you say yes to more It's focusing on you as a person your vision which Kristy alludes to like are we on track or not for that vision and then E stands for earnings and profitability and S stands for systems and if you put them in that order So you've got your vision then we look at the numbers just like Kristy said   then you put into place the systems based on what those numbers tell you, it becomes a much more manageable and easier to digest process rather than being like, I need all the systems. And it's like, no, no, no, you just need the systems based on what the numbers tell you because I'm sure you're doing a lot more right than you think you are.   DAT Kristy (14:25) Absolutely. And I also think, you know, it's a good time to take a step back and evaluate where you are on the culture scale too, right? Happy team creates happy patients and happy patients pay and refer. So it all goes hand in hand.   Kiera Dent (14:39) Good   thoughts on there. Okay, so what else do you go? You go through the production collections, diagnosis, case acceptance, new patients, lead lag measures. Then you move into, we on track, off track for our goals of where we're at this year? What are the things that we could do now to get there by end of year? Are they still relevant? Are we still on track? What else do you look at with your clients when you're doing these assessments, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (15:02) Yeah, well, I always like to start the year off with projecting where we're going. And so also calculating back to that. And you and I talked about overhead. If we take what our average overhead is for the year, are we on track for meeting that or not?   Right? Because we can project all day long. I can want to make $3 million, but this $3 million cover overhead expenses and our savings for the year. So always measuring back to that. And if we're off track figuring out how can we get on track, right? Did doctor take off more time or do we need to add in a Friday to get to goal? You know, those types of things. Or are you, ⁓   okay with where we're projected to land and you feel confident about that. You know, once in a blue moon, well, I shouldn't say once in a blue moon because you and I do get them up there, but you know, it also relieves them and they can maybe even take an extra week off or a few days off because they're ahead of goal. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (16:06) Totally.   And those are the fun ones. That's what we want. We want to be ahead. We don't want to always be behind. And I agree with you, Kristy. The offices that are ⁓ diligent and consistent at looking at these, we look at these monthly, we look at these quarterly, we look at these annually, we assess, we redirect. It's like, I don't know. I feel like what you do is there's a plane. I just flew back from Greece, which was a very long flight. And it was very fun. This is where I watched.   DAT Kristy (16:13) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (16:35) so many of these shows of this very good looking actor. I thought I was like, how tall is this man? While my husband's sitting next to me, it's okay, it's all right. We're allowed to have a few celebrity crushes. ⁓ But on our flight back, it was like a 12, 13 hour flight home. And I think about if that pilot would not have checked to see if we were a few degrees off, I could have easily ended up somewhere else. And that's just by a few degrees. And so what I feel you're doing, Kristy, on these quarterly, these monthly, these annual check-ins is making sure   that we're still navigating towards Greece or towards wherever we're trying to get. And are we on track or like you said, do we need to do a small navigation at a Friday, change this, look at our spending to be able to end up there at the end of the year or like, are we so far off course? So we need to like correct a little bit and then get back on track for next year. But the hope is that we catch that soon enough because we're never gonna go in a straight line. It will never be perfectly across. There will always be hiccups, there will be turbulence, there will be.   things that you gotta go around, you gotta redirect places. But if we're constantly looking at it, we stay much more on course and charter to where we want to go rather than like hoping and wishing we end up where we actually set out to go.   DAT Kristy (17:43) Yeah, 100%. And sometimes it's also looking, where are we spending? Right? Is there something that crept in there? We talked about this before too, with, you know, the subscriptions or, I mean, it's funny because the very first doctor that   I remember him telling a story about an airline and I was just sharing this recently with a client. I think it was like American, you guys could probably Google it and find it, but it's back in the day when they would serve meals to everybody and this airline decided that they could cut one olive.   Kiera Dent (18:17) Hmm?   DAT Kristy (18:17) and it cut their bottom line by a ton. Like what is the cost of one olive? So where can we tighten the ship a little bit? Those things are kind of, again, have fun with it, gamify it. Get your team involved. Let them be part of the solution.   Kiera Dent (18:37) Yeah,   and Kristy, I love that because we talk about this olive, the FedEx trucks and then chicken nuggets. And going back to it, the black olive airline cut, it was one olive, saved them $40,000 annually. I just pulled it up to sea and it was on American Airlines. And Tiff and I talk about the chicken nugget, like they used to serve five chicken nuggets, which was the right amount. Well, they dropped it to four. Four is not enough, so now you...   Upsell to 10 and I'm like that's one chicken nugget. This is one olive and I agree with you Kristy for me This is the fun of business like how can I go find that one olive or that one chicken nugget Tim and I get really excited when we find a whole chicken farm. Like that's a good one I'm like, wow, that was that was like a really good idea or a whole salad But again, it's to cut costs but improve patient care. Like what are they? mean even today Kristy, Shelbi, Britt and I were going through our expenses in dental a team   DAT Kristy (19:25) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:30) and we looked and we have Adobe and we still use Adobe for contracts. But Shelbi looked at it, we're paying 65 and we use Canva and our marketing team doesn't need all the entire suite of Adobe anymore. But that was something we put into place like five years ago. We've been paying 65 bucks every single month when we only need to be paying 19. Not that that matters. And so many people are just like, well, here it's 40 bucks. And I'm like, okay, you want to play a game with me? I'll play a game. It's 65 minus 20.   DAT Kristy (19:57) me.   Kiera Dent (20:00) Okay, so 45 times that by 12 times that by five years is 2,700 bucks that I've been overpaying just on a subscription that's doing nothing for our company that I could have cut. And I'm like, I know you might not get out of bed for 2,700 bucks, but I'm like, you find that subscription, you find this subscription, you find that one, all those little, do you think someone really was excited on American Airlines to save $40,000 when it's a multi-billion dollar business? But 40,000 here, 20,000 there.   DAT Kristy (20:26) Right.   Kiera Dent (20:29) 50 bucks here. also think Kristy, to me, it's the discipline of auditing, of looking. It's more than I think the olive or the Adobe subscription or the chicken nugget. It is the constant innovation to look, to be the most savvy business that we can possibly be. And then we flip to the other side and give the best service that we can as well.   DAT Kristy (20:51) 100 % I agree with you, Kiera. Yeah, it's just those small incremental things. And it's about being intentional versus doing it by default, right? Let's do it intentionally so that when we get to the end, there's no surprises.   Kiera Dent (20:52) you   love that because I hate surprises in December as a business owner. Oh, I used to dread December's like and it's a great time to travel. It's a great time to hang out with family. But I used to cry like beginning of December, it was tears every single year. And then by the end of the year, I was exhausted. had nothing left for family and it's supposed to be such a fun time that I agree with you, Kristy. It's like no tears. The projections are there we were prepared. I don't know there really is a saying like if you are prepared, you will not fear and I'm like, it really is that case and also   Like CPAs, I'm gonna rag for a second. They rag on consultants. This is a love relationship we have with CPAs and consultants. I get so annoyed that like CPAs don't tell you till December. And I'm like, no, have the meeting in July. Have the meeting in October. Figure it out because you still have time to pivot. And that's what Kristy and I wanted to come on today is there's still time to pivot if you look at these items, you look at the things we're discussing, you look to see what can we do. There's still time. It's like, we're not at the 11th hour.   hoping to try to make up time in such a short amount of time. call your CPAs, find out where you're at on your tax liabilities. Are you on track for saving that? There's so many times that we have our meeting with the CPA and he's like, Kiera, I need to up and increase and start cutting. And I'm just annoyed every time, but I'd rather do that over the course of six months rather than one month, because I still have time to make that correction with it, not hurting as much as it could.   DAT Kristy (22:30) It's so true, so true. And the efforts to get there are a lot smaller when we can dilute it over five months versus two weeks, because we didn't look till the end of the year.   Kiera Dent (22:42) especially the two weeks in December where we're not producing so we're not even collecting and we have to pay more. It's just a really like nasty path. So I'm like, no, no, no, just don't plan for December. Have that be your gravy slush time. Get it all done in 11 months. But like even that kind of thinking, Kristy, I don't think is common. I think it's very abnormal to think, well, if my December is only going to be two weeks, why am I banking on that as a full month? Why don't I bank on? And this is back to mine and Kristy, like we love the projections. We love to think of like   DAT Kristy (22:59) No.   Kiera Dent (23:12) How could I get this done in 11 months? How can we give you vacations? How can it be done in this many weeks? And that's something, Kristy, I really do feel like it's the Kit Kat Club over here. Like we really do think in such a similar way, but I want you to realize like this is how Kristy and I are able to throw gains. We're able to help practices get to where they want to be, but also with it being easy, happy teams, happy culture, not a lot of stress, ⁓ and just kind of doing the small minutiae things that actually make insane gains.   for a practice. We help find the olives, Kristy. Every so often we might get a tomato, but it's the small olives that actually make the huge impact for a practice.   DAT Kristy (23:42) Right? Yeah, let's get the olives. Yeah.   100%, 100%. And hopefully we can show it's easy. It's not hard. It truly isn't hard. It's one patient at a time and just capturing a little bit more.   Kiera Dent (24:03) Yeah. And then Kristy, I think it's really fun what you do for your clients too, is you show them the ROI that you brought to them through AR, through production, through overhead savings. So that way a client, regardless of their bank account saying, can literally see that in the course of working together, this is what we've been able to accomplish together. Because I think as a business owner, it is so easy to forget like what it felt like when I couldn't lift 20 pounds, now that I'm lifting 50 pounds.   Like it's so easy because 50 pounds becomes your new normal, but you're like, no, no, no, no. Remember how we started and you couldn't even lift like five pounds. Then you got up to 20, then you got up to 50. I think it's very easy for clients to forget where they started because their new norm is where we've grown them to.   DAT Kristy (24:48) Yeah, it's so true. mean, you know me, I love analogies and it's almost like your periopatient that's been coming in every three months and now they're healthy and so they want to push it back out and it's like you forgot it's this effort coming every three months that's gotten you healthy and the minute we change it, things start to slide, you know, so. ⁓   Yeah, mean, hopefully, hopefully we can always show that value in it. They still have to do the boots on the ground hard work, but you know.   even Tiger Woods has a coach, right? And that coach can see around corners to see things a little bit faster maybe when things aren't moving the same. You your swing's off, what's happening, what's going on, you know, and to keep you back on track. it's fun, it's fun partnering with clients and being able to see that and course correct and help them achieve their goals.   Kiera Dent (25:43) ⁓ I love it. Kristy, I agree with you. And I think that that's why we have the passion for consulting. We have the passion for practices. We have the passion for wanting you to strike. It's crazy because like, I don't know, we have a tagline, which marketing told me I need to get rid of because it's more about me than it is about you. And it does not make sense to me. ⁓ where it says like your success as a practice is truly Dental A Team's passion. Like this is what gets me and Kristy up out of bed. This is what makes us want to get on a podcast and share with you is   you being successful, you getting your dreams, you hitting these goals is what we are obsessed and so passionate about. So I think it's so fun. So I'd say, Kristy, if practice is listening right now, what would be kind of like your bow on our podcast today that you'd say like, okay, from everything we've talked about, what do they take away? What can they go implement? ⁓ Because sometimes it can feel like, well, what's my first step to be able to get on this path of slight course corrections to get to my final destination with ease.   DAT Kristy (26:42) Yeah, well first off, if you haven't figured out your goal, maybe look at what you finished at last year and at least strive for 10 % above that because we know that that's at least keeping up with inflation. Again, I don't know if that's meeting your overhead needs, but at least it's a good point. And then reverse engineer it. See how far you're off track from that for the year.   and ⁓ what's one more day or one more thing every day. Hopefully you're doing some sort of morning huddle and ⁓ inside of the morning huddle, everybody has a part to play, right? So admin, look, is there any balances that need to be collected?   ⁓ patient wise in doctor's schedule, is there anybody that could come back in through hygiene? Hygiene, if we have undiagnosed treatment and we know there is, because we see those numbers every day in morning huddle and it's almost like crazy alarming the amount. Usually it's more than what you're even producing for the day. So, gamify it and try to turn those patients into healthy patients by converting their treatment. ⁓   know just those simple things right there is going to make a big difference to your year end.   Kiera Dent (27:55) I that. I love it, Kristy, so much. And I love that you have the passion and the love. I love that you will also sit down with your clients. And I think that that's the discipline and maybe like the fast track of using a consultant is, Kristy, you prepare these for your clients. You think about it. You're looking down the line of things they're maybe not even considering doing. They're not thinking about midway. How are we doing? What are our projections? Are we on track? Are we off track? Where are we at? And I think having a consultant, like you said, with even Tiger Woods,   looking around the corner, looking down the line. Kristy and I are both like, we're watching the clock. We know we only have so many more months in the year. Where are you at? How can we make sure that we're constantly keeping you on track to get to your goals? Where maybe you're just having a fun summer vacation or you're just coming back. Like we know that that's our job is to be looking down the line for you, watching out for you, projecting for you, course correcting with you. ⁓ Even when you're in the day to day problems. And I think Kristy, that's just a   a shout out to you and a shout out to consultants because this is why we do what we do. So if you, if you are like most business owners, including myself, when I first started and you hate numbers, that's why there are people like Kristy and myself that exist because we love to get into the nitty gritty. We love to look for those olives. We love to help you go do the dentistry and we're going to sit here and help make sure your business and your team and your practice is flourishing. So that way the hard work you put into being a dentist pays off for you in the end. So Kristy love this, love what you do for our clients.   Love being the, the KK Kit Kat, whatever we want to be over here. mean, it might stick. We might be Kit Kats for Halloween. You never know, but Kristy just super appreciate you and all that you do for our clients and for our company and you as a human being, you're just a gem. And I'm so freaking lucky to work with you.   DAT Kristy (29:28) Yeah.   Thank you. It's my honor and you know what? We're stronger as a team, I have to say. So no matter what consultant you have in our company, you get all of us. So we collaborate, we cheer each other on, just like hopefully you're cheering your team on. So happy to help.   Kiera Dent (29:49) Bye.   Kristy,   you said that so well and it is true. I see you and all the consultants like have little meetings on your calendars of connecting and chatting and I do agree. We all help each other out. We want all of our clients to succeed no matter who you're working with. So for all of you, if you're struggling or you're like, gosh, I really would love that help or just having someone, I'll just put our arm around you and like, we're here to help you. We're here to support you. We're here to guide you. We're here to look around that corner. Reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, Kristy, thanks for being with me. Thank all of you for listening.   and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

On this week's episode of The Business of Watches, we're doing something a little different. We're taking your questions, and we've got a special guest as Hodinkee Editor-In-Chief, James Stacey, joins the podcast to help answer your queries on the business side of the dial. We hit a lot of topics, from the best perpetual calendars under $20,000, to rising watch prices, the recent surge in Swiss watch exports to the U.K., and just how popular is Halloween in Switzerland? It's a fun episode, and we hope you enjoy it. Be sure to leave any thoughts or questions in the comments section, and we'll do our best to respond. Want to subscribe so you never miss an episode? This new show is being published to the original Hodinkee Podcasts feed, so you can subscribe wherever you find your podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or TuneIn.This episode of The Business of Watches is brought to you by Panerai. Click here to learn more about the Luminor Collection.Show Notes:2:30 How Halloween Became Part of Swiss Culture 3:20 William Friedkin's Sorcerer5:20 Simon Brette  5:25 Akrivia / Rexhep Rexhepi 6:10 MB&F 8:05 Sylvain Berneron 9:30 Omega Watches13:00 Omega Speedmaster Professional (White dial)13:30 New Speedmaster Dark Side of The Moon 15:40 Niels Eggerding interview16:20 FC Classic Perpetual Calendar 16:50 Furlan Marri Perpetual One18:00 Jaeger-LeCoultre Master Ultra Thin Perpetual Calendar18:30 Montblanc Heritage Perpetual Calendar 19:30 IWC DaVinci Perpetual Calendar Ref. 3750 (Fratello)19:40 Panerai 22:10 Swiss Watch Export Statistics 29:00 What Richemont and Swatch Financial Results Tell Us About The State of The Swiss Watch Industry35:40 Tissot PRX Powermatic 80 38 MM in Damascus Steel (Hodinkee) 35:45 Longines 35:54 Sinn Watches 

Welcome back to the 257th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 257th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Dissonant Species, written by Heather Marie Annis and Michael Gordon Spence, directed by Jacquie P.A. Thomas, and presented by Theatre Gargantua. Join host and Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson as they discuss the show's bold fusion of sound, movement, and emotion; the deeply personal and resonant monologues that explore connection, anxiety, and self-expression; and the ensemble's masterful collaboration in crafting a visceral, immersive sonic experience.Dissonant Species is playing at Factory Theatre (125 Bathurst Street, Toronto, Ontario M5V 2R2) from November 6th to November 23rd. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://purchase.factorytheatre.ca/EventAvailability?EventId=50602 This review contains many SPOILERS for Dissonant Species. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [16:14] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Tiff and Kristy spell out what it takes to onboard to the best of your ability. They touch on the questions a hiring manager should be asking themself during interviews, how an applicant will be learning about your practice, the appropriate vibes to give out for your business, and more.   Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am here with you again today with my fave podcaster I'm sorry rest of the team. She's got that title right now. She's got the crown Miss Kristy is here with me today And this one we had to talk about it beforehand and I'm excited. I'm now excited for this We had to brainstorm a little bit before recording this podcast to ensure we were on the right track and like minded on this which I think speaks volume to the   you know, podcast topic, but also to how well our team works together and how well our team really is bonded. And Kristy, before we get into today's topic, first of all, welcome. Thank you so much for giving me, it's Monday today, so giving me your Monday afternoon so we could record a couple of podcasts. How are you?   DAT Kristy (00:50) Good, I always look forward to my Mondays when I get to spend them with you.   The Dental A Team (00:54) Thank you. I used to do these on Fridays, which was like, it's a fun way to end of the week. But I was like, I think it's a fun way to start the week too, because we get time together. And then I just like them better on Mondays. So hopefully you guys do too.   DAT Kristy (01:08) I agree.   The Dental A Team (01:10) So today's podcast, you guys, if you're subscribed to our newsletters, you know that our podcasts kind of follow the same topic and genre of our newsletters. If you're not subscribed to our newsletters, hop over to TheDentalATeam.com, hit subscribe because there's actually, I mean, we follow the same cadence and the same topics, but they're gonna be a little bit different. So if you're looking for more information, a lot of times they have downloads in them too. So if you're not subscribed, go do that.   Our marketing team would love me for that little plug, but truly if you're not getting those yet, you should be, so go grab them. ⁓ Today's topic may be, I think today's topic on podcast might be a little bit different than topic by newsletter. And Kristy and I wanted to take a stab at really kind of switching the mindset on this space. And Kristy, think I'm gonna like boost our egos. I think you and I actually do really, really well.   at seeing something and flipping it and being like, well, what if we looked at it from this angle instead of that one? I think you and I actually do really, really well at that. So thank you for working together with me on that. Today, you guys, your newsletter coming through, like I said, it's gonna be a little bit different. Today's podcast, we're really gonna be talking about not off-boarding, like what to do, how to let someone go, because we're really not here for that. Like the consulting team is here for...   doing everything we can to hire the right person and to make sure that there's complete clarity around everything that each individual is doing, that the path is set and you actually have no questions about keeping them on or off boarding them. Like that's in your court, that is not in our court. So we thought it would be more beneficial and more fun for the two of us to really talk about onboarding correctly and like even before you're onboarding, what that looks like.   Kristy, I think this might actually be fun. I'm just spinning us a little bit, but I kind of want to talk about us attracting you into the Dental A Team because you haven't always been here, right? We have met you, Kiera, I have met you a long time ago, but you haven't been with the Dental A Team forever, even though to us and likely to all of our listeners, it does feel like you have been a part of this team since   DAT Kristy (03:20) No.   The Dental A Team (03:33) the very beginning, which I think also speaks volumes to our topic today because that goes right along with what we're thinking. Now, how did that happen, Kristy? Like, how did Dental A Team, how did we attract you? You found us. ⁓ We are so thankful for it. But how did we attract you, who fit so seamlessly into the dynamics of our team, our goals?   you literally like consult just like we do like everything about you embodies who we are. How is that possible? How did we do that?   DAT Kristy (04:11) Yeah, you know, with every place you go, there's little things that may change a little bit, but the heart of things don't change. And so you're right, if we align not only in process, but also culture. so ⁓ when it came time for my journey to shift and change, it was important to find the like minded space and people. ⁓   not only for me to help them grow, but for you guys to help me grow, right? Like they say, look around who you surround yourself with because you're kind of like the top five people you hang around, right? And so ⁓ it was really important for me to find that culture and process both, you know, and I'll make sure we were aligned.   The Dental A Team (05:05) Yeah, thank you. I think if you guys can hear what she's saying, right, Kristy's saying that she was able to see that she was in alignment with who we are as humans, that our goals, our vision, our company standards really aligned with Kristy. While there might be some caveats and some spaces of learning or some spaces where it's like, okay, I thought it would look like this, but let's try this or and let's try and let's create this. ⁓   DAT Kristy (05:07) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:34) That's massive because offboarding, offboarding does, it's not easy, you guys. It's not, there's not an easy peasy process that takes emotions out and just makes it to where you're the robot that can easily just fire people whenever you want. What I do instead is I try to make sure that I'm representing our company to the best that I possibly can in everything that I do. So when I'm going through, I'm the hiring manager for our consulting team.   When I'm going through, I'm doing the same thing Kristy said she's doing. I'm looking to see, does this candidate align with who we are? the response is coming back in alignment with how we speak to each other or how we speak to clients. Is it in alignment with what I would love to see a timeline as, right? Like I've gotten, I've had candidates where I'm like, my gosh, their resume is fantastic. This is the experience that I want, spot on.   I'm gonna reach out to them and I don't hear from them for like a week. I'm like, well, that's not in alignment with us. And so ensuring that on both sides, we're taking a step back and we're questioning the alignment of those pieces, I think is a huge, huge reason why it's been successful. Now, in order to do that, this is a caveat, you guys. You can't just show up and just,   expect everyone to know how to show up, right? You've got to really lead by example. And in my opinion, we are leading by core values, mission and vision. We are driven by the why of this company. And that is what attracts people. That's what attracted Kristy. Kristy was attracted to the why of our company, our mission, our vision.   and how we show up, which are our core values. I show up in our core values, Kiera does, Britt does. When Kristy came to the interview, she was like, okay, got it. I can see it in real life. So Kristy, as an outsider, you're applying for a job. In what ways were you able to see that we did have an alignment or at least enough alignment to say, let's explore this in that... ⁓   hiring process, like in the application process, you're sending your resume outside of listening to us on on podcasts, I'm thinking how can offices kind of emanate and represent that in a space where like minded people can find them?   DAT Kristy (08:06) Yeah, if I'm understanding you correctly, think it's truly... ⁓   You have to make sure you're painting clarity for people on, you have to speak your culture. Like for instance, how many times do we talk to our own clients and say, do you have a mission statement? Do you have core values? And they'll be like, yeah, we do, somewhere. You know what I mean? You have to live it and you can't just say, yes, I have it. You have to show that you have it and you use it and it means something.   The Dental A Team (08:37) Mm-hmm.   DAT Kristy (08:47) Right? And so when I found you guys, you could recite it. You lived it. You wove it into your process. Right? And it told me that it means something to you and you live by it. Like it's our code of conduct, if you will. Right? And it can't just be put in a drawer. You have to keep it alive in order for it to serve the ultimate goal and mission, if you will.   The Dental A Team (09:15) Mm hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's just a it's a rep an outward representation. And so I think even in our job ads, right, and I know I work a lot with clients on this. I know I see you guys doing it, too. I know Monica just helped a client last week with some job ads. But making sure those job ads speak to you because I can write a job ad. But if you copy and paste the job that I wrote, even writing it for you, even my clients that I've worked with for seven plus years,   DAT Kristy (09:16) Thank   The Dental A Team (09:44) I can write it for you and I know you, but unless you go in and speak some of yourself into that ad, it's not gonna hit, it just doesn't resonate. And so a lot of practices too are very different than who I am. So if I write your ad and I attract me to your practice and your practice doesn't, you're not me, that person is likely not gonna be a good fit.   DAT Kristy (09:51) Mm-hmm.   Right.   The Dental A Team (10:13) Right?   It's just, she could or he could for sure for the, maybe for the long run, but attracting that like-minded person takes really being able to know who you are and who you want to show up as and then doing that every single day. It makes me think of like, if I went and applied at Chick-fil-A, I know exactly how I'm supposed to show up. If I apply at Target, if I apply at Starbucks, I know exactly how I'm supposed to show up.   Dutch Bros. I wouldn't apply at Dutch Bros because it's too much energy output. I know that, right? But if I can go to Starbucks where it's still energy output, but not quite as much, it's a little tamer of a coffee process, I really want to be a barista one day. That's why I'm saying these. I would love to be a barista. ⁓ But I'm going to judge it. I'm going to judge where I'm applying based on those aspects. My son did the same thing. His first job even, he's looking at, is this a company I want to work for?   Is this a company that I can represent and be happy at? Because no matter what he understood as an employee, he's walking in as a representation of that facility. And if it's not a company that he is in alignment with, either what they're doing, he doesn't understand what they're doing, or he's not excited to be there himself, he knows that he's not gonna be able to represent that and he's gonna be a really just angry human.   And if they're not happy, that's where off-boarding comes in, right? Like now you're into the space of like this kid, dang it Brody, like you suck. He's like, yeah, cause I hate working here. Got it. Right. Or he sees like team members, employees that are like not loving life. Like he's judging these entry level positions based off of that. So to be in a position where we're high level, we're getting paid way better. We've got some schooling behind us.   DAT Kristy (11:48) See you.   The Dental A Team (12:07) Most of us at least see ease at least some sort of knowledge base or trying to get our foot into dental We're looking at those things as well Like how are people showing up and Kristy as I'm saying that I'm like that might be something that even is lost in the old like drop your resume off at the front desk like used to be able to drop it off and see what it was like to be like, ⁓ This is a place. I want to go or ⁓ okay, like   DAT Kristy (12:26) Yeah.   Mmm.   The Dental A Team (12:32) on and jot that down.   Yeah, so we lose some of that like visibility. But I do think this day and age people are looking at social media, people are looking at websites and people are researching. I know when we get when we get finally to the interview process, if I'm talking to a person who hasn't researched us, and they don't know who we are, they don't know how we show up, they haven't looked at the website, I'm like, well, that might not be a great fit. Because for our culture,   You've already done that. You know you fit and you're excited to work with us. You know?   DAT Kristy (13:04) I agree with you,   Tiff, so much. And I love that you use Dutch Bros. Hopefully everybody, even if you don't drink coffee, they have other things. But ⁓ I'm with you. I couldn't work at Dutch Bros. I appreciate what they do. But it's funny how many times that situation happens in practices and we want to make the employee wrong. And truly it was our process because we attracted the wrong person. I mean, if Dutch Bros. was attracting an introvert,   The Dental A Team (13:26) Hmm.   DAT Kristy (13:33) they'd be off boarding a lot of people, right? And so instead of, I mean, I like to say, I mean, when you and I looked at this topic, I literally was like, well, heck, if we're off boarding that many people, we've got to take some ownership on that side. You know, just like our patients, if there's attrition, we have natural attrition, they move away or death, that's gonna happen with employees too. But if we're having to off board a lot of employees, I think it's time that we take a step back.   The Dental A Team (13:36) Agreed.   DAT Kristy (14:01) and go, how are we attracting and who are we attracting? ⁓ One of the things with, we spoke about core values and our mission statement. I also think like, it's just not our why. And you made mention of this. It's also how we behave and how we show up. It's the why, the what and the how. And we get commitments around that. And if we're not getting that,   I'm always about extreme ownership. So how can I take a step back and attract the right person, attract the extrovert to Dutch brothers, not the introvert to, right? Because we're ultimately setting ourselves up for failure and for the person too. We didn't do right by them if we hired the introvert at Dutch brothers.   The Dental A Team (14:39) correct. Yeah.   I agree. And I think something you said there,   that's the like Simon Sinek, like what, what, how and why, right? And I think something that most practices nail is the what. We know what position we need to hire. We don't nail the how that position shows up for our company. So what, what is the how behind how that position contributes to our team? How do they show up for our team? And how do they show up for the patients? Meaning what is the job?   DAT Kristy (15:03) Thank   The Dental A Team (15:19) that they're doing and what are the metrics that tell us they are doing that job or not? Because oftentimes we also get stuck in the ⁓ mundane like feelings and emotions. And I'm not here to say that a stellar person, know, somebody, I've seen it. I've seen a manager who had stellar collections and like top-notch collections but couldn't communicate with the team. That's an issue, but that's a metric too. Like are we,   You know, how can we tie those things to the metrics? So if we can say your extreme ownership is massive, because if we can say as a leadership team or as an owner, I've done everything I can, they have complete clarity, I've had the conversations, offboarding then is much easier. Offboarding is difficult when there's still confusion, when either that person is gonna be confused because you let them go because they had no idea they did anything wrong.   or if you're confused because you can't even pinpoint why this person doesn't work with your team, you just know they don't work. That's the confusion. the what and the why. So what is the position? Why do you need it? And then how do we show up for that position? And what's the clarity around what that person's supposed to be doing?   DAT Kristy (16:41) I love that you say that, Tiff, because how many times do we even identify, let's just take an easy one. I need to hire a greeter, right? And they need to smile and they have to be able to answer the phone too, but it isn't just answering the phone. It's hearing the warm smile and we do it this way. How much of that did you portray? And even how much of that did you include in your interview process?   The Dental A Team (17:07) ⁓ uh-huh.   DAT Kristy (17:08) you know   what I mean? Did you have them answer a phone? This is really ⁓ a different way of looking at things, but I learned a different process when I was in practice where ⁓ at the end of the applying, it says, do not submit your resume. And we wanted somebody with detail. And so the people that submitted their resumes, mean, some of were great, but we threw it out, right? And we never ever   We also took bias, like people bias out of it. And so our first interview was always over the phone without seeing them. And we would instruct them to call at a certain time and how to handle the call. Like you're gonna schedule me an appointment for, and we wanted to hear, like we gave them specifics and hear how they deliver. Can you see how that then starts to align with our how and why? We painted the clarity of what to do.   and then listened for the results and saw how naturally they fit, if you will. It's a different strategy, but.   The Dental A Team (18:11) Absolutely, we used,   it totally is. used to do, ⁓ what's your favorite, respond to this with your favorite ice cream in the subject line or your favorite candy or your favorite baseball team. I've got offices that are in Chicago and you know, there's the Cubs and the White Sox are both Chicago. So it's like, what's your favorite ⁓ baseball team? Not to say, I love that baseball team too or yes, Sprinkles ice cream is the best, but to say, you caught that detail.   in there and I love that you said that, Kristy. used to, Kiera and I once upon a time had a recruiting company. We are not doing that anymore, everyone, and it is hard. I hated it. It was a long time ago. We don't need to go back there, but that's how I used to schedule the interviews. I would say, awesome. I will chat with you on Tuesday at 2 p.m. You call me. So if they didn't call me, if they missed that interview, they were out. It was an automatic out for me, or if they called late, but I do agree.   with getting the preliminary done, not having a face-to-face for the first time, listen for the details of what you need for that position. So if you're hiring a billing rep and you get someone you're like, I didn't love her on the phone, well, she's not talking to you, she's talking to insurance companies. So that might be okay. But if you're hiring a greeter that you're like, she was super shy, she didn't really, like she wasn't super forthcoming, she didn't have any questions for me, it wasn't engaging, is your patient gonna enjoy talking to that person on the other side? But then flip side of that, Kristy, I think you mentioned   something really, really beautiful you said, if we're hiring a greeter and we want that smiley personality, we want that bubbly person, like you're hiring for those things, but I've also seen practices, and this drives me a little nuts, I've seen practices that are like, I want the bubbly person who's building relationships with the patients, they're smiling, they're making eye contact, and they're excited to see the patients as soon as they walk through the door, they also answer the calls and they can pass it off. You find that person.   DAT Kristy (19:52) You   The Dental A Team (20:08) Right? And then they're like, her details suck and she can't multitask. Well, guess what? Those are two very differing personalities and you got to choose your heart. If she's stellar at building the relationships and your patients are fine waiting five minutes in the front lobby because she's sitting there talking to them and they're not angry when they go to the back, might be okay that she didn't call the insurance company for whatever, you know, whatever detail was.   miss, like then at that point it's do we have clarification of roles and are the duties in the right seat? Because personality will make a massive difference to the results that you want and you've got to figure out the type of person that you want in those seats as well.   DAT Kristy (20:46) Okay.   Yeah. The other factor in that too, Tiff, and I think in a way you touched on it was, it a skill thing or a will thing? You know, we've got to understand and also set benchmarks for time, right? I literally was talking to a practice last week and I just kept hearing, don't have time and we don't have time. And I'm just thinking, you know, we can always say, well, when I learned back in 19, whatever,   The Dental A Team (21:04) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (21:24) go there, but you know, we were just thrown in and that doesn't mean it's the right way. It doesn't mean it's the right way. And you know, we owe it to people to give them the time to onboard them and show them what we want. And it goes back to how you said, choose your heart. The time we spend early will reap rewards.   The Dental A Team (21:48) Totally agree. I think that's brilliant. we have worked so hard on our onboarding process to match it with our expectations and to match it with our core values and our mission and our vision because we want our team to be onboarded correctly, not willy-nilly. It was kind of like haphazard. honestly, we've hired a lot of amazing people and a lot of people who   They were, they are amazing humans. We've not hired anyone who's not an amazing human. I have loved everyone that we hired, but they may not have been the right fit for us, either at that time or just in general. It doesn't mean that they're not a good person. It just means that it didn't fit. And I am a firm believer in any aspect of life. If it's not fitting for me, it's not fitting for them either. It's not, there's no way.   we can coexist with one of us not working out and the other one working out. It just doesn't work that way. So this was so much more fun than the original topic we looked at. Thank you for taking that.   DAT Kristy (22:53) Yeah, agree, agree. Yeah, I'm with you   Tiff. mean, if we're off boarding so many people, let's just take a step back and focus on our onboarding and how we can choose differently. So, cause it's not fun off boarding. It isn't.   The Dental A Team (23:08) No, no,   and I don't want that to be like, eventually that is gonna be a conversation. It is a protocol that you do need to have in place. It should be very simple. There should be no questions asked and the person should be like, yep, got it, okay. They might still be angry, that's fine. That's an emotional situation, but there shouldn't be questions around it. And if you need help building that, fine. We've got references, we've got information, we've got documents we can help you with, but realistically,   take a step back and say, how can I prevent the need to off board someone? I want everyone here forever. having that protocol, sure, got it in our back pocket for if it is necessary, but how do I prevent that need? I don't want that at all. So go back through your hiring process and look at the team members that hired well. Like I'll look at Kristy and say, how did I attract Kristy to my team? How did I attract Trish to my team? Like Monica, to my team, Monica was a   referral from Trish because Trish knew that this was a fit for Monica. Trish knew it was a fit for us for the same reasons Kristy did. I actually, we didn't even realize until after Trish started the hiring process, she knew me previously, didn't even realize because it was a different space of life that we were connected. She applied to our company because she wanted to work with our company, not because of me. So it's just really cool to watch those things happen. So moving forward with hiring, I look at   DAT Kristy (24:28) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (24:34) the consultants that I have, Dana, and I say, what attracted this human, this perfect specimen of a consultant to our company? And how do I emanate that in the information I'm putting outward? Like the podcast, the job ads, those pieces, how do I make sure that I recruit those people again?   DAT Kristy (24:54) I agree with you. And you mentioned this early on too. One of my biggest tips would be make sure you're speaking to that employee in the beginning of your ad. So many times people write it about themselves. This is why, you know, but they're buying into what it's an emotional thing that it's going to bring to them. So make sure you're speaking to that, you know, on the onset of your.   The Dental A Team (25:20) I totally agree with you. That is a massive point. We get caught up in wanting people to want us. We want people to want to work with us. And I do want people to want to work with us, but I want people to first see themselves in the job, in the person that I'm describing. I want them to be able to check, check, check, say, yes, that's me, yes, that's me, yes, I want this, yes, I want to work with this company.   DAT Kristy (25:43) 100%. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (25:45) Awesome. All right, guys, I hope this was beneficial. think biggest takeaways, biggest action items, make sure number one, we talk about this all the time, you guys, core values, mission, vision, job descriptions are in alignment. We preach on this because you guys, it is the core of your company. So if those things, your org chart, those pieces are out of alignment, they're not solid yet, reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com We can get on a call, kind of figure out what needs to happen. If you are our client, reach out to your consultant.   Easy peasy. Okay, don't reach out to hello. That gets a little confusing when things like that come through. So if you have a consultant on your team already on your side, reach out to your consultant. ⁓ Secondary to that, check and see like what's working, what's not working, and how can you duplicate what's working? How can you duplicate that higher and keep people for the long haul? I would love if every time we quote unquote off boarded someone, it was truly because they had a life change, not because   it was the wrong place for either of us. And sometimes we do outgrow each other. I do have to put that out there. If you're a team of seven today, and in a year and a half, you're a team of 13, 14, sometimes those team of seven team members need a team of seven. And that's okay too. That's an out, that's a life change. That's a, this space is no longer working for me. That's a life change. It's a growth space. That's okay too. It doesn't mean that there was something wrong. It just means that we're in a new space. So go check those pieces. If you're in the hiring world right now,   Check your ads, make sure your ads are speaking to you, and then check the kind of applicants that you're getting to your ads. Is there a trend in the type of applicants you're getting? Are they all wrong? Are they all right? Are they mediocre? Kind of check that and then revamp your ad to fit to attract someone different if you're not getting the right people. Kristy, thank you so much. This one was, like I said, this was really fun. At first I think we both were like, wow, that's a little wild. ⁓   DAT Kristy (27:39) What?   The Dental A Team (27:42) But I had a lot of fun with this one. So thank you for taking that journey with me, Kristy.   DAT Kristy (27:46) Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Always a pleasure.   The Dental A Team (27:49) Thank you. Awesome. All right, guys, go drop us a five star review because you know this one was amazing. This was super fun for us. And also let us know what you loved. Let us know if there's anything we can do to help you. Again, if you're not yet a client, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com is a really easy space to reach us at. If you are a current client that we love and adore, we love and adore you on a consultant basis. So reach out to your consultant. She is here waiting to help you. All right, everyone, we'll catch you next time.  

Anti-hunger advocates and education groups did a victory dance election night, celebrating the passage of Props. MM and LL, two statewide ballot measures to increase funding for Colorado's universal free school meal program. CPR's Jenny Brundin joins Purplish host Bente Birkeland to talk through what voters thought of these measures and what it means for the programs' future. They also dig into the results of school board races around the state. Then, a pivot to look ahead at the 2026 midterms, and the big races on the horizon, including the fight for control of Congress and the candidates who hope to win the governor's office. The Colorado Sun's Jesse Paul, KUNC's Lucas Brady Woods and CPR's Caitlyn Kim are on the podcast this week to preview what they're watching for on as the state gears up for a big election year.If you're enjoying the show and want everyone to know it, email us at purplish@cpr.org and we'll send you a Purplish sticker to thank you for being an awesome listener!Purplish is produced by listener-supported CPR News and the Capitol News Alliance, a collaboration between KUNC News, Colorado Public Radio, Rocky Mountain PBS, and The Colorado Sun, and shared with Rocky Mountain Community Radio and other news organizations across the state. Funding for the Alliance is provided in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.Purplish's producer is Stephanie Wolf. This episode was edited by Megan Verlee and Rachel Estabrook, and sound designed and engineered by Shane Rumsey. Theme music is by Brad Turner.

In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but grows powerfully through God's sovereign work. The mustard seed illustrates the kingdom's visible expansion (extensive growth), while the leaven highlights its internal transformative influence (intensive growth). Both parables emphasize that God's kingdom often appears to "disappear" initially but produces outsized results through His work, not our own. These parables provide encouragement for times when the church feels weak or our personal faith feels insufficient—God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's kingdom transforms both outwardly (extensive growth illustrated by the mustard seed) and inwardly (intensive growth shown by the leaven). Cultural transformation happens most effectively through ordinary Christian faithfulness rather than flashy or provocative engagement. Christians should not despise small beginnings, recognizing that faithfulness rather than visibility is the true measure of fruitfulness. Understanding Kingdom Growth: From Imperceptible to Unstoppable The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect. This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross. Finding Hope When Faith Feels Small One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work. These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan. As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter. Memorable Quotes "We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb "The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal "What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness. It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that? And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately. And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness. [00:02:31] Affirmations and Denials Explained Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming. And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment. We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language. Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology. He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla. So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we. Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about. Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us. Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel. Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh, Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us. Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against. So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something? [00:04:55] No Quarters November Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters. I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is. Um, and he, he paints it in language that, like, normally I'm very careful and I qualify everything and I have all sorts of nuance. But in November, I'm just gonna be a bull in a China shop, um, as though he's not already just a bull in a China shop 95% of the time. So I'm affirming no corridors. November maybe. No corners November. Everything should be rounded. Jesse Schwamb: That's good too. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. No, no. Quatro November. Like we don't do anything in Spanish. No fours in Spanish. I don't know. Okay. I'm just making fun of that. I'm just making fun of the whole thing. It's such a silly, dumb enterprise. There's nothing I can do except to make fun of it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's fair. That's basically the response it deserves. This time, we, we brought it up for several years going, it's such a strange thing. [00:06:13] Critique of Doug Wilson's Approach Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to see this thing as complete liberty to be sinful and then to acknowledge that. Yeah. As if somehow that gives you, reinforces that liberty that you're taking it, it's so strange. It's as if like, this is what is necessary and probably we'll get to this actually, but this is what is necessary for like the gospel or the kingdom of God to go forward is that kind of attitude at times. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this, I do always look forward every year to seeing what he sets on fire. 'cause the, the videos are pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. Like the video quality is, is certainly compelling. Um, and you could say it's lit is another little punny way to get at it. Uh, I, I haven't seen it this year. I mean, that's, we're recording this on November 1st, so I'm sure that it's out. Uh, I just haven't seen it yet. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, kind of ridiculous, uh, that anyone believes that Doug Wilson is restraining himself or engaging in lots of fine distinctions and nuance. You know, like the rest of the year and November is the time that he really like holds back, uh, or really doesn't hold back. That's, that's just a silly, it's just a silly gimmick. It's a silly, like, I dunno, it's a gimmick and it's dumb and so I'm gonna make fun of it 'cause that's what it deserves. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I was thinking recently because as you said, the counter just rolled over. And generally this time of year I end up always watching that documentary that Ligonier put together on Martin Luther, which is quite good. And I think it does, has a fair treatment of him, including the fact that he was so bombastic and that he was very caustic with his language. And I think they treat that fairly by saying, oh, that some of the same things that we admire in somebody can be some of the very same things which pull them into sinful behavior. And there's no excuse for that. And, and, and if that's true for him, then it's true for all of us, of course. And it's definitely true for Luther. So I think this idea, we need to be guarding our tongues all the time and to just make up some excuse to say, I'm not gonna do that. And in some way implying that there's some kind of hidden. Piety in that is what I think is just so disturbing. And I think most of us see through that for what exactly it is. It's clickbaits. It's this idea of trying to draw attention by being bombastic and literally setting things on fire. Like the video where he sets the boat on fire is crazy because all I can think of is like, so if you judge me, one more thing on this, Tony, 'cause I, I, when you said that, I thought about this video, the boat video implicitly, and I've thought about this a lot since then. There's a clip of him, he sets the boat on fire and it's kind of like him sitting on the boat that is engulfed in flames looking out into the sea, so, so calmly as if it's like an embodiment of that mean this is fine, everything is fine, this is fine. Right? Yeah. And all I can think of is that was great for probably like the two seconds that somebody filmed that, but guess what happened immediately after that? Somebody rescued you by putting out the fire on the boat. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's just like insanity to presume that, encapsulating that single moment and somehow conveying that he is a great champion, pioneer advocate of things of the gospel by essentially coming in and disrupting and being caustic and that him setting thing on fire makes everything better is a mockery, because that's not even exactly how that shoot took place. Yeah. So I, I just really struggle with that, with the perspective he is trying to bring forward. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I'm dubious whether or not there was actually any fire involved. Well, that's, I think 95% of it is probably camera magic, which is fine. Like, I don't know. That's fine. Like, I don't want Doug Wilson to burn up. That's, that wouldn't be cool either. But, um, yeah, I mean, like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy piece patience, kindness, good as gentleness, setting things on fire and being a jerk in November, apparently. And I, I just don't, I, I've never fully understood the argument. Um, and this is coming from someone who can be sarcastic and can go over the top and go too far. And, and I recognize that about myself. I've just never understood the argument that like, it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. Or, or not even just, okay. It's necessary to be a jerk sometimes. Exactly. Um, there's a difference between boldness and being a jerk. And, you know, I think, um, the people who, who know me well are gonna like fall off their chairs. I say this like, Michael Foster is actually someone who I think. Does the boldness with a little bit of an edge. I think he actually does it really well. And just like all of us, I, you know, he, he probably goes over the line, uh, on occasion. Um, and, and, but I think he does the, I'm just going to be direct and straightforward and bold. And sometimes that might offend you because sometimes the truth is offensive. Um, I think he does that well. I think where we go sideways is when we try to couch everything in sort of this offensive posture, right? Where, where even the things that shouldn't be offensive, uh, somehow need to be made offensive. It, it's just, it's dumb. It's just, um, and I'm, I'm not saying we should be nice just for the sake of being nice. I think sometimes being nice is. When I say nice, I mean like saccharin sweet, like, like overly uh, I don't know, like sappy sweets. Like we don't have to be that. And uh, there are times where it's not even appropriate to be that. Um, but that's different than just, you know, it's almost like the same error in the wrong direction, right? To be, just to be a jerk all the time. Sometimes our words and our behavior and our actions have to have a hard edge. And sometimes that's going to offend people because sometimes the truth, especially the gospel truth is offensive. Um, but when what you're known for is being a jerk and being rude and just being offensive for the sake of being offensive. Um, right. And, and I'll even say this, and this will be the last thing I say. 'cause I didn't, I, I really intend this just to be like a, a jokey joke. No quarters, November. I'm not gonna spend any quarters. Um, I don't know why I was foolish enough to think we weren't gonna get into it, but, um. When your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk. Even if that isn't true, it tells you that something is wrong with the way you're doing things. Right. Because I think there are times where, and I'll say this to be charitable, there are times where Doug Wilson says something with a little bit of an edge, and people make way too big of a deal out of it. Like they, they go over the top and try to condemn it, and they, they make everything like the worst possible offense. And sometimes, sometimes it's, it's just not. Um, and there are even times where Doug says things that are winsome and they're helpful and, um, but, but when your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk, or that you are inflammatory just to get a reaction, um, there's something wrong with your approach. And then to top it off, when you claim that for November, like you explicitly claim that identity as though that's not already kind of your shtick the rest of the year. Um, and just, it's just. Frustrating and dumb and you know, this is the guy that like, is like planting a church in DC and is like going on cnn. It's just really frustrating to see that sort of the worst that the reformed world has to offer in terms of the way we interact with people sometimes is getting the most attention. So, right. Anyway, don't, don't be a pirate. N November is still my way. I celebrate and, uh, yeah, that's, that's that. Jesse Schwamb: That's well said. Again, all things we're thinking about because we all have tendency to be that person from time to time. So I think it's important for us to be reminded that the gospel doesn't belong to us. So that means like that sharp edge, that conviction belongs to Christ, not to our personalities. So if it's tilted toward our personalities, even toward our communication style, then it means that we are acting in sin. And so it's hard for us to see that sometimes. So it does take somebody to say, whoa. Back it down a little bit there and you may need to process. Well, I'm trying to communicate and convey this particular truth. Well, again, the objective that we had before us is always to do so in love and salt and light. So I agree with you that there is a way to be forthright and direct in a way that still communicates like loving compassion and concern for somebody. And so if really what you're trying to do is the equivalent of some kinda spiritual CPR, we'll know that you, you don't have to be a jerk while you're doing it. You don't have to cause the kind of destruction that's unnecessary in the process. Even though CPR is a traumatic and you know, can be a painful event by it's necessary nature, we administer it in such a way that makes sure that we are, we have fidelity to the essential process itself, to the essential truths that's worth standing up for. Yeah, it's not a worth being a jerk. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:37] Practical Application of Parables Tony Arsenal: Jesse, let's, let's move along. What are you affirming or denying tonight Jesse Schwamb: and now for something much lighter? So, my, my affirmation I share at the risk of it being like so narrow that maybe nobody will actually want to use this, but I actually had you in mind. Tony, I've been sitting on this one for a little while 'cause I've been testing it. And so we're, we're just gonna run like an actual quick experiment 'cause I. I'm guessing you will find this affirmation useful and will come along with me and it and might even use it, but you and I are not always like representative of all the people in the world. I say that definitely tongue in cheek. So we're a little bit nerdy. We love our podcasts and so occasionally, I don't know if this happens to you, I'm guessing it does, but I want to capture like a moment that I heard while podcast is playing on my phone. Maybe somebody says something really interesting, it's great quotes, or it's mathematical nature and I wanna go back and process it. And so generally what I do is I, I don't know, I stop it. I try to go back and listen to it real quick if I can, or maybe I can't because running, driving, all that stuff. So. When I hear something now that I want to keep, I just cry out to my phone. I have an, I have an iPhone, so I say, Siri, you could do this with Google. Take a screenshot. What happens is the phone captures an image of my podcast app with a timestamp showing of course what's being played. Then I forward this image, this is the crazy affirmation part. When it's time to be alive, I forward this image to a certain email address and I get back the text transcript of the previous 90 seconds, which I can then either look at or file into my notes. What is this email address sent it to you. Well, here's the website so you can go check it out for yourself though. Website is actually called Podcast Magic App, and there's just three easy steps there, and this will explain to you how you actually get that image back to you in the format of a transcript. And the weird thing about this is it's, it's basically free, although if you use it a lot, they ask for like a one-time donation of $20, which you know me, I love. A one time fee. So I've been using this a lot recently, which is why I've been sitting on it, but it is super helpful for those of you who are out there listening to stuff. They're like, oh, I like that. I need to get that back. And of course, like you'll never get it back. So if you can create this method that I've done where you can train your phone to take a snapshot picture of what's on the screen, then you can send it to Podcast Magic at Sublime app, and they will literally send you a transcript of the previous 90 seconds no matter what it is. Tony Arsenal: That is pretty sweet. I'll have to check that out. Um, I don't listen to as many podcasts as I used to. How dare you? I just, the I know. It's, it's crazy. Where do we even do it Feels like heresy to say that on a podcast that I'm recording. Yes. Um, Jesse Schwamb: we've lost half the audience. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Well, yeah. Well, the other half will come next. Um, no, I, I, I just don't have as much time as I used to. I, I live closer to work than I used to and um, I'm down to, we're down to one car now, so, um, your mother is graciously giving me a ride to work. Um, 'cause she, she drives right past our house on the, the way and right past my work on the way to her work. Um, but yeah, so I guess I say that to say like, the podcast that I do listen to are the ones that I really wanna make sure I'm, I am, uh, processing and consuming and, uh, making sure that I'm kinda like locking into the content. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Tony Arsenal: So this might be helpful for that when I do hear something and I do think, like, it's hard because I use matter, which is great, and you can forward a podcast to matter and it generates a whole transcript of the entire episode, which is great. Um, but I don't often go back and, you know, a lot of times, like I'll go through my matter, uh, queue and it'll be like three weeks after I listened to a podcast episode, I be like, why did I put this in here? Right? I get that. I don't wanna listen to the entire 60 minute episode again to try to remember what that special thing was. So I just end up archiving it. So this might be a good middle ground to kind of say like, I might set, I might still send it to matter to get the whole transcript, but then I can use this service to just capture where in the transcript actually was I looking for? Um. It's interesting. I'll have to look at it too, because you can, you can send, uh, through Apple Podcast, the Apple Podcast app and through most podcast apps, I think. Right? You can send the episode with the timestamp attached to it. Yes. So I wonder if you could just send that, that link. Okay. Instead of the screenshot. Um, you know, usually I'm, I'm not. Uh, I don't usually, I'm not driving anymore, so usually when I'm listening to a podcast I have, my hands are on my phone so I could actually send it. So yeah, I'll have to check that out. That's a good recommendation. Jesse Schwamb: Again, it's kind of nuanced, but listen, loved ones, you know what you get with us, you're gonna get some, it could be equally affirmation, denial that Doug involves Doug Wilson, and then some random little thing that's gonna help you transcribe podcasts you listen to, because life is so hard that we need to be able to instantly get the last 90 seconds of something we listen to so that we can put it into our note taping at note taking app and put it into our common notebook and keep it. Yeah, there you go. Tony Arsenal: There's a lot of apps. There was actually a, a fair number of apps that came out a while ago that were, they were trying to accomplish this. Where you could, as you were listening to the podcast, in that app, you could basically say, highlight that and it would, it would highlight whatever sentence you were on. But the problem is like by the time you say highlight that you're already onto the next sentence, you now you're going back trying to do it again. And I didn't find any of that worked really seamlessly. It was a lot of extra friction. So this might be kind of a good frictionless or less friction way to do it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm totally with you. [00:20:08] The Kingdom of Heaven Parables Jesse Schwamb: I mean, speaking of like things that cause friction, there's no doubt that sometimes in Jesus' teaching on the parables that he himself brings the heat, he brings a little friction in his communication. And since you and I basically did go through each of these parables, we don't have do that again on this conversation. In fact, what I'm looking forward to is kind of us coming together and coalescing our conversation about these things, the themes that we both felt that we heard and uncovered in the course of talking through them. But I think as well ending with so what? So what is some real good shoe leather style, practical application of these ideas of understanding the kingdom of God to be like this mustard seed and like this lemon. So why don't I start by just reading. Again, these couple of verses, which we're gonna take right out of Matthew chapter 13. Of course, there are parallel passages in the other gospels as well, and I'd point you to those if you wanna be well-rounded, which you should be. And so we're gonna start in verse 31 of chapter 13. It's just a handful of verse verses. Here's what Matthew writes. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It's the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. He told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Alright? Yeah. So Tony, what do you think? Tony Arsenal: Uh, I mean, these are so like, straightforward. It was almost, it, it felt almost silly trying to like explain them. Yeah. One of the things that, that did strike me, that I think is worth commenting too, um, just as a, a general reminder for parables, we have to be careful to remember what the parable is saying, right? So I, I often hear, um. The smallness of the mustard seed emphasized. Mm-hmm. And I think your, your commentary, you did a good job of kind of pointing out that like there's a development in this parable like it, right? It's a progression and there's an eschatology to it, both in terms of the, the parable itself, but also it comments on the eschatology of the kingdom of heaven. But it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. It's the kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sewed in his field. Right? It's that whole clause that is the, the kingdom of heaven is like likewise, the kingdom of heaven is not just like leave, it's like leave that a woman took in hidden in three measures of flour till all was leavened. So when we're looking at these parables. Or when we're looking at really any parable, it's important to make sure that we get the second half of the, the comparison, right? What are we comparing the kingdom of heaven to? You know, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a sower who sowed seeds among, you know, in three types of four types of soil. This kingdom of Heaven is like, this is like that. We don't wanna miss part of the parable because we latch on to just like the first noun, and that follows the word like, um, but I think these are great, these are great little, um, parables that in some ways are almost like, uh, compliments or ex explanations of the other parables that we're looking at too. They, they explain to us something more about what the Kingdom of Heaven is using similar kinds of analogies that help us flesh out the parables that are surrounding them. So the Kingdom of Heaven. You know, again, we always want to caution against kind of like overinterpreting, the parables, but the, the parable of the sower is talking about the seed that is sewn into the field, right? And then there's the parable of the wheat and the tears, and there's seed again. And we, we might have a tendency to sort of miss the nature of the kingdom in a certain sort of dynamic. This fleshes this out. So we might think of like the parable of the sowers, like we don't know what, what proportion is of good soil, you know, good soil versus bad. We know that there's three types of soils that are bad soils or unproductive soils and one type, but we don't know like how much of the soil is, um, like what percentage of the field is that. Similarly, like we don't know what percentage of the field was wheat and what was weeds. This is kind of reminding us that the, the kingdom of heaven is not found primarily in the, um, the expansiveness of it. Right. It's not, it's not initially going to look like much. It's going to initially start out very small. Right. And in some ways, like in both of these, it appears to disappear entirely. Right? You sow a grain of mustard seed. I don't, I've never seen a mustard seed, so, but it's very small. Obviously you sow that into the ground. You're not gonna find it again, you're not gonna come back a week later and dig up that seed and figure out where you sewed it. Um, similarly, like you put a, you put a very small amount of yeast or lemon into a three measures of flour. You're not gonna be able to go in even probably, even with a microscope. You know, I suppose if you had infinite amount of time, you could pick a every single grain of flour, but you're not gonna be able to like go find that lemon. It's not gonna be obvious to the eye anymore, or even obvious to the careful searcher anymore. So that's what the kingdom of heaven is like in both of these. It's this very small, unassuming thing that is hidden away. Uh, it is not outwardly visible. It is not outwardly magnificent. It is not outwardly even effective. It disappears for all intents and purposes. And then it does this amazing thing. And that's where I really think these, these two parables kind of find their unity is this small, unassuming thing. That seems ineffectual actually is like abundantly effectual in ways that we don't even think about and can't even comprehend. Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yeah. I would say almost it's as if it's like, well, it's certainly intentionally, but almost like offensively imperceptible. And I think that's the friction that Jesus brings with him to the original audience when he explains it this way. So again, from the top, when we said this idea that the kingdom of God is imperceptible, it's hidden, it grows, it conquers, it brings eschatological resolution. And I'm just thinking again, in the minds of the hearers, what they would've been processing. I think you're spot on. I liked your treatment of that by focusing us to the fact that there is verb and noun and they go together. We often get stuck on the nouns, but this, that verb content means that all of this, of course, is by the superintendent will of God. It's volitional. His choice is to do it this way. It is again, where the curse becomes the blessing, where it's the theology of the cross or theology of glory, where it is what is small and imp, perceptible and normal by extraordinary means becomes that which conquers all things. And so I can. Picture, at least in my mind, because I'm a person and would, would wanna understand something of the kingdom of God. And if I were in a place, a place of oppression physically and spiritually living in darkness, to have this one who claims to be Messiah come and talk about the inauguration of this kingdom. My mind, of course, would immediately go to, well, God's kingdom must be greater than any other kingdom I could see on this earth. And I see it on the earth that the sun rises. And cast light across provinces and countries and territories in a grand way. And then we have this kingdom of God, which, you know, theory, the, the sun should never set on it and the sun should never be able to shine, but on a corner of it. And it doesn't have provinces or countries, it doesn't even have continence, but it has, it encapsulates worlds. And it doesn't stretch from like shore to shore or sea to shining sea, but from sun to sun or star to star from the heavens to the earth, its extent couldn't be surveyed. Its inhabitants couldn't be numbered. Its beginning, could never be calculated because from Tard past, it had no bounds. And so I'm just thinking of all these things and then like you said, Jesus says, let me tell you what it's really like. It's like somebody throwing a tiny seed into a garden. Or it's like a woman just making bread and she puts yeast into it. These seem like not just opposites, but almost offensive, I think, in the way that they portray this kingdom that's supposed to be of great power and sovereign growth, but it comes in perceptibly and how perfect, because the one who's delivering this message is the one who comes imperceptibly, the person of Christ preaching the gospel and the hearts of believers. But that grows into a vast and global proportion, and that of course, that aligns exactly with so many things you and I have talked about in process before. These doctrines are providence and sovereign grace, that God ordains the means that is the seed and ensures the outcome, which is the tree. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, um, you know, I don't, I don't know of any affinity with mustard seed in like the Old Testament law, but there's, there's a sort of a reversal of expectation here too, because although Levin is not always associated with like impurity, um, I think most Jewish listeners would immediately have a negative connotation with Levin for sure. Right? So when, when all of a sudden he's comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven it, it becomes sort of this, um, the reason Levin is so pernicious and the reason that in the Old Testament law, you know, they're, they're, they're not just not making their bread with leave for the, for the Passover. They have to like sweep out their whole house. They have to empty all their stores out. They have to clear everything out. And that's not just because like. In, in, in Old Testament, sort of like metaphors, leaven does get associated with sin, right? Uh, and that gets carried on into the New Testament, but just the actual physical properties of leaven is like, if there's any little bit of it left on the shelf or even in the air, like even on your hands, it's can spoil the whole batch. It can cause the entire batch to go a different direction than you want it to. And in a certain way, like the Kingdom of Heaven is like that, right? Um. [00:30:21] The Resilience of God's Kingdom Tony Arsenal: You hear about, um, you hear about situations where it seems like the presence of God's people and the, the kingdom of God is just, it's just eradicated. And then you find out that there's actually like a small group of believers who somehow survived and then like Christianity is thriving again like 50 years later. Um, you can't just wipe out the kingdom of heaven because it is like leaven and any small remaining remnant of it is going to work its way back through the entire batch in a way that is, uh, mysterious and is somewhat unpredictable and is certainly going to surprise people who are not expecting it to be there. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:31:04] Understanding Theological Concepts Jesse Schwamb: One of the things I really picked up in your treatment of that, that kind of drew me in in a special way was, you know, we think of some theological terms. We have really, I think, strong. Rubric for processing them, and especially like their multifaceted nature. So for instance, when we think about sanctification, we often talk about positional and progressive. And those are really helpful ways to understand a concept that brings us into modeling where it's finite and precise to a degree that allows us to understand it and comprehend it with a greater degree of confidence. And knowing it's many parts, because it is many parted. [00:31:36] The Parable of the Leaven Jesse Schwamb: And I was thinking as you were talking about the leaven, how the kingdom of heaven here that is inaugurated by Christ, that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit is growth and always deny that. But what you drew out for me was I think we're definitely seeing in that this idea of the intensive growth and then of course in the. Parable of the mustard seed. It's more extensive growth and they're both important. So they're in consummate harmony. It's not just like one recapitulating the other. And what that made me think about was even as you were speaking now, this really interesting difference, you know, the woman is taking this, again, talking about the verb, there's two nouns here actually. There's like the, the proper pronoun of the woman there is the act which she's doing, which she's taking the leaven and working it as it were like into the flower. I just did like a weird motion here on the camera if you're watching on uh, YouTube. Sorry about that. [00:32:28] Practical Lessons from Bread Making Jesse Schwamb: Almost like I was giving CPR, but she's working it into this meal or this flower and the working it from within outwards and that working itself like changes the whole substance from the center to the surface of this meal. Now I was thinking about this 'cause you noted something about bed bread. Bread baking in yours. And I did actually just a couple weeks ago, make some bread and the recipe I was using came with this like huge warning. Some of the recipes are like this, where when you're using some kinda lemon, most of the time we're using yeast. You have to not only be careful, of course, about how much yeast you put in because you put in too much, it's gonna blow the whole thing up. You're gonna have serious problems. You're not gonna make the bread anymore, you're gonna make a bomb, so to speak, and it's gonna be horrible. You're not gonna want to eat it. But the second thing is the order in which you add the ingredients, or in this recipe in particular, had very explicit instructions for when you're creating the dry ingredients. When you have the flour, make a little well with your finger and delicately place. All of the yeast in there so that when you bring the dough together, when you start to shape it, you do it in a particular way that from the inside out changes the whole thing so that there's a thorough mixing. Because the beauty of this intensive change is that. As you know Tony, like there's so many things right now in my kitchen that are fermenting and I talked about before, fermenting the process of leavening something is a process of complete change. It's taking something that was before and making it something very different. But of course it retains some of the essential characteristics, but at the same time is a completely different thing. And so it's through a corresponding change that man goes to whom the spirit of God communicates His grace. It's hidden in the heart and chain begin, change begins there. You know, the outward reformation is not preparing a way for inward regeneration. It's the other way around that regeneration, that reformation on the outside springs from a regeneration that's on the inside, growing out of it as a tree grows from a seed as a stream flows from the spring or as leave, comes and takes over the entire lump of dough. [00:34:26] The Power of Small Beginnings Jesse Schwamb: It's amazing. This is how God works it. We again, on the one side we see the kingdom of heaven. That is like the manifestations of his rule in rain coming, like that seed being sown and growing into this mighty tree. It brings shade. The birds come nest in it. And that may be a reference Allah to like Ezekiel or Daniel, the Gentiles themselves. There's that inclusion. And then to be paired with this lovely sense that, you know what else, anywhere else, the power of the kingdom of heaven is made. Manifest is in every heart in life of the believer. And so the Christian has way more in religion in their outer expression than they do anybody else. Because the inner person, the identity has been changed. Now you and I, you and I harp all the time on this idea that we, we don't need some kind of, you know, restoration. We need regeneration. We don't need to be reformed merely on the outside by way of behaviors or clever life hacks. We need desperately to be changed from the inside out because otherwise we. Where it's just, I don't know, draping a dead cold statue with clothing, or all we're doing is trying to create for ourselves a pew in the house of God. What we really need is to be like this bread that is fully loving, that grows and rises into this delicious offering before the world and before God. Because if you were to cut into this outwardly looking freshly baked bread and find that as soon as you got through that delicious, hard, crispy crust on the outside, that in the inside all it was, was filled with like unprocessed, raw flour, you would of course say, that's not bread. I don't know what that is. But that's not bred. What a great blessing that the promise that God gives to us is that the kingdom of God is not like that. It lies in the heart by the power of God. And if it's not there, it's not anywhere. And that though the Christian May at times exhibit, as we've talked about before, some kinda hypocrisy, they are not essentially hypocrites. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is leavening us by the power of the Holy Spirit. That gospel message is constantly per permeating that yeast through all of who we are, so that it continues to change us. So that while the natural man still remains, we are in fact a new creation in Christ. So to start with, you know, bread and or not bread to end with bread, but to start with flour and water and yeast and salts, and to be transformed and changed is the intensive power of the growth of the gospel, which is with us all our lives, until we have that beautific vision. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, to kind of take a, a pivot maybe to the practical, I think this is, this is not the point of the parable necessarily 'cause the parable. I think there's a lot that these parables have to say to us about like, personal, individual growth, but they really are about the growth of the kingdom or the, the, maybe necessarily the growth of the kingdom. I think that's there too. But really like the nature of the kingdom as this sort of like, hidden, hidden thing that then grows and creates big results. [00:37:34] Encouragement in Times of Darkness Tony Arsenal: I, I think this is a, this is a parable that should encourage us. Like absolutely for sure we should look to this and, and be encouraged because. It is not the case. Um, I know there are lots of people who wanna act as though like this is the worst time anyone has ever lived in, and everything is the worst as it's ever been. It's, this is not even close to the worst time that the church has ever existed in, um, there are, it's funny, um, we'll give a little plug. Some of our listeners have started their own new show called Over Theologizing, and, um, it, it was, it was funny listening to the second episode they had, um. Pete Smith was on there and they were saying, like, they were talking about like, how do you feel about the nature of the church? And Pete was like, it's fine. Like it's great out here. Like there's lots of churches, lots good. Like I, I think that there are pockets in our, in our world, um, particularly, you know, my, my former reference is Western World and in the United States and in some senses in, in Europe, um, there are certainly pockets of places where it's very dark and very difficult to be a Christian, but by and large it's not all that challenging. Like, we're not being actively persecuted. They're not feeding us to the lions. They're not stealing our businesses. They're not, um, murdering us. You know, like I said, there are exceptions. And even in the United States, there are places where things are moving that direction. But there are also times when the church is going to feel dark and small and, and like it's failing and, and like it's, it's weak. And we can look at these parables and say, the fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power that does not rob the kingdom of heaven of its power. It in, in actuality that smallness is its power, right? Leave is so powerful of an ingredient in bread because you need so little of it, right? Because that it, you can use such a small quantity of lemon to create such a, a huge result in bread. That's the very nature of it. And it, its efficacy is in that smallness. And you know, I think the mustard seed is probably similar in that you, you don't need to have, um. Huge reaping of, of mustard seed in order to produce the, the crop that is necessary, the trees that are necessary to, to grow that. So when we look around us and we see the kingdom of heaven feeling and maybe actually even being very small in our midst, we should still be encouraged because it doesn't take a lot of leave to make the bread rise, so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot. And, and again, like of course it's not our power that's doing it, that's where maybe sort of like the second takeaway, the baker doesn't make the bread rise by his own like force of will, right? He does it by putting in this, this agent, you know, this ingredient that works in a sort of miraculous, mysterious way. It's obviously not actually miraculous. It's a very natural process. But I think for most of history. So that was a process that probably was not well understood, right? We, we, people didn't fully understand why Bread did what it did when you used lemon. They just knew that it did. And I think that's a good takeaway for us as well, is we can't always predict how the kingdom of heaven is gonna develop or is gonna operate in our midst. Um, sometimes it's gonna work in ways that seem to make a lot of sense, otherwise it's gonna seem like it's not doing anything. Um, and then all of a sudden it does. And that's, that's kind of where we're at. Jesse Schwamb: I like that. That's what a great reminder. Again, we all often come under this theme that God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that he is, he's always working and even we've just come again on the calendar at least to celebrate something of the Reformation and its anniversary. Uh. What again, proof positive that God's kingdom will not fail. That even in the places where I thought the gospel was lost or was darkens, even in Israel's past in history, God always brings it forward. It cannot, it will not die. [00:41:26] Faithfulness Over Visibility Jesse Schwamb: So I wanna tack onto that by way of, I think some practical encouragement for ministry or for all believers. And that is, let's not despise small beginnings. Like let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel. This is from um, Zacharia chapter four, beginning of verse eight. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, the hands of the rebel have laid the foundation of this house. His hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zabel. So I love this encouragement that is for all Christians. That's one. Again, God is doing all the verbs like just. For one last time for everybody in the back. God does all the verbs. Yeah, and in so doing, because he is doing all the verbs, he may, but he chooses to start with small things because again, he is always showing and exemplifying his glory and he does this in these normative ways. It's a beautiful expression of how majestic and powerful he is. So let's embrace those things with be encouraged by them. The gospel may appear weak or slow in bearing fruit, yet God guarantees its eventual triumph. God guarantees that he's already stamped it. It's faithfulness and not visibility. That's the measure of fruitfulness. So if you're feeling encouraged in whatever it is that you're doing in ministry, the formal or otherwise, I would say to you. Look to that faithfulness, continue to get up and do it, continue to labor at it, continue to seek strength through the Holy Spirit, and know that the measure of his fruitfulness will come, but maybe in a future time, but it will come because this is what God does. It's God doing all the work. He's the one, he's essentially the characters needs of these parables, sowing the seed, working in lemon. Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think, you know, like I said, the, the parables are not necessarily about individual personal growth. Um, but I, I think the principle that is here applies to that as well is I think oftentimes we feel like, um. I'll speak for myself. There are have been many times in my walk as a Christian, um, where it just feels like nothing's happening. Right? Right. Like, you just feel like it's dry and like you, you're, you know, you're, you're not like you're falling into some great sin or like you've walking away from the faith, but it just feels sort of dry and stale and like God isn't doing anything. And, um, I've only ever tried to bake bread once and it was a, it was just a terrible, terrible failure. But, um, I think one of the things that I've. I've read about people who bake bread is that there is a level of patience that has to come with it, right? Because oftentimes it seems like the bread isn't rising. It seems like the, the lemon is not doing what it's supposed to do until it does. Right? And like, if you take the bread out of the oven every couple of minutes to check and see if it's rising, it's never going to rise. It's never going to do what it's supposed to do. And, um, you know, I think that is kind of like the Christian life in microcosm too, is we, we have these spiritual disciplines that we do. We pray, we read the scriptures, we attend faithfully to the Lord's Day service. And oftentimes it doesn't feel like that's doing anything right. But it is. The Kingdom of Heaven is at work in not only in our midst as a corporate body, but the kingdom of heaven is at work in each of us as well. That's right. God's, God's grace and his, uh, special providence and his spirit of, of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. Um, he is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see, um, outward progress or not. If the spirit dwells within us, he is necessarily making us holy and necessarily sanctifying us. Um, and and so I want us to all think about that as we, we kind of wrap up a little bit here, is we shouldn't be. I, I don't wanna say we shouldn't be discouraged, um, because it's easy to get discouraged and I don't want people to feel like I'm like, you should never be discouraged. Like sometimes the world is discouraging and it's frustrating, and it's okay to feel that, but we should be able to be encouraged by this parable. When we look at it and we remember like, this is just. This is just the parable form of Paul saying like, God glories by using the weak to demonstrate his strength. Exactly right. He, he is, his power is shown in, in using the weak and frail things of this life and this world to accomplish his purposes. And so when we are weak, when we are feeling as though we are failing as Christians, we should be able to look at this and say, well, this is what the kingdom of heaven is like. It's like a tiny mustard seed, a tiny mustard seed of faith that grows into a large tree. It's, it's like this little little spark of leave that God puts in us and it's hidden in us and it leavens the whole loaf. And that's us, right? And that's the church, that's the kingdom. It's the world. Um, God is at work and he is doing it in ways that we would not ordinarily see. Even the person who has this sort of like explosive Christian growth. That's not usually sustained. I think most people when they first come to faith, especially if they come to faith, you know, as a teenager or a young adult, um, they come to faith and they have this like explosive period of growth where they're like really passionate about it and on fire. And then that, that passion just kind of like Peters out and you kind of get into like the, the day in, day out of Christianity, um, which is not, it's not flashy. It's not sexy, it's not super exciting. It's very boring in a lot of ways, like right, it's, it's basic bread, it's basic water. It's hearing a, a person speak and it's, it's reading words on a page. But when the Holy Spirit uses those things, he uses them faithfully to finish the work that he started. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The spirit's work of leavening, it continues quietly, but it powerfully, yeah. And we shouldn't despise that quietness or that smallness that I think is altogether a gift of God. And again, we're talking about the one who embodies the perfect will of God, who came and condescended to his creation was like us in every eight, where every way without sin. This is the one who became, I think as Paul writes in Galatians, a curse for us. And so again, this blessedness arises out of, again, what I think is this offensive means. And if that is the model that Christ gives to us, we ourselves shouldn't despise that kinda small beginning or even despise the sacrifices we're often called to make. Or those again, I would say like offensively and auspicious kinds of beginnings. All of that is peace wise, what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And there's a beauty in that. And I would say, I want to add to what you said, Tony, 'cause I think it was right on, is this idea that's easy to be discouraged is. It doesn't require any explanation. I, I, I'm totally with you. If you were to pick up any, or go to any kind of website and just look at the headlines for their news reporting, you're going to find plenty of reasons to be discouraged and to feel melancholy. And yet at the same time when I think we, you and I talk about these things, what I'm prone to consider is what Paul writes elsewhere to the church in Corinth, where he says in two Corinthians chapter 10, we destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. Being ready to punish every disobedience when you're disobey, when you're obedience is complete. And so what I think that applies to us in this particular case is understanding that this is the promise of God. Like you're saying, you and I are saying. Discouragement happens. And yet the truth is that small inauspicious beginnings in the kingdom of heaven always result in outsized gains that God never ceases to work. That he's always with us, that he's always for us. Then we do have to take captive those thoughts that lead us into kind of a disproportionate melancholy that pull us away or distract us from this truth of God, the knowledge of God, which is that he is super intending, his sovereign will completely over every molecule in the universe because this is what the Kingdom of Heaven does. And so that gives us, I think as I said last week, hope and evangelism we're storming those gates of hell we're coming for you like because there is a triumphalism in Christ that will be manifested in the final day. It's the reformed understanding of the here but not quite yet. [00:49:57] Cultural Engagement as Christians Jesse Schwamb: And like the last place that Le that leads me to like some practical, I think application is, and I wanna be careful with this, so I'm curious for your opinion. It's cultural engagement. You know, if we're thinking about this, leave permeating this dough, this tiny seed growing to overtake the garden, then I think believers should labor to continue to bring biblical truth into every sphere. So your family, your vocation, arts, politics, everything under Christ's lordship. I think sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be. As we've talked about the top of the show, really outspoken in a provocative kind of way. I think sometimes, again, that same quiet though, consistent work that the Holy Spirit does that's powerful in leavening us is the same thing that we can do with just our attitudes at work or our attitudes in our family, or our willingness to serve or our kind words. Of course, it does require us to preach the gospel using words. It also means that the power of the leaven is that quiet power. It doesn't jump outta the bread. It doesn't boast, but it is present. So maybe I'm saying Christians, let's be present, and leavening means to be present with the attitude and the mind of Christ. What? What do you think? Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's right on, you know, um, it, it's not quite a parable, but Christ, Christ commands his people to be like salt and light and true. Um, and, and by saying that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven, you know, like a, a measure of leaven that was hidden away in three measures. Um, he's also commanding us to be like leaven, right? And he is commanding us to be like the, the mustard seed because that is what we are. And I think, um, we shouldn't think that we can cloister off or sequester off the kingdom of heaven from the rest of culture and create like, um, I'm not quite, uh, I'm not quite to the point where I'm, I'm a transformational in the sort of like Tim Keller sense, but I do think that. We, and I don't like this word, but I'm not sure of a better, a better way to say it, but like, we like to set up these little Christian ghettos where like we, we isolate ourselves culturally into these little subcultures and these little sort of cordoned off areas of culture. Um, where we, we actually then strive to look just like the culture that's around us, right? Right. We subsection off Christian music and although it's, you know, typically it's like a decade behind the curve in terms of what music is good, we're really just doing the same music as the rest of the world. We just baptize it with Christian language. Like, I remember my, my youth pastor in high school rewrote the song closing time to Be Quiet Time. And like that was like, that was like the most Christian thing he could do at the time, was rewrite the lyrics to a song. But like, that's, that's absolutely not what cultural transformation looks like. Right. Well, cultural transformation, and maybe I'm channeling a little bit of, of Michael Foster here, what cultural transformation looks like. Is is a man who gets married and loves his wife, well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church, right? Like that's, that's cultural transformation. And in our culture, like that is a very counter-cultural way to do things. It's actually very counter-cultural. There have been times when that's not particularly countercultural and there probably will be times again where it is. And actually it seems like our broader American culture is moving away from the sort of like two kids, two kids and a dog is a, is a bygone era fantasy. And now it's like two single people living in a house together with a dog. Um, you know, and, and that's not to say that that's the only way to be, to transform culture, right? That's just one example of sort of the most mundane, natural thing is actually the way that we do it. Um. We transform culture by, um, by being honest, having integrity, yes. By, um, working hard, right? Yes. Going to work, doing your job well, uh, without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades, um, and just doing a good job because that's what God commands us to do when he tells us to honor our employers and to be good, faithful bond servants in the Lord. Um, that is also very, uh, that also will transform culture. Um, you know, I think we think of cultural transformation and we, I think we immediately go to, for better or worse, we go to like the Doug Wilsons of the world and we go like, that guy's engaging the culture. Well, yeah, I guess in a certain sense he is. Um, or we, or we go to. The Tim Keller's of the world where they are, they're engaging culture in a different way. But I think for most of us, for most Christians, our cultural engagement is very nor like very normal and very boring. It's living a very ordinary, quiet life. Um, you know, what does Paul say? Work quiet life. Mind your own business. Work with your hands, right? Like, don't be a busy body. Um, like that's, that's actually the way that culture is transformed. And that makes perfect sense. We will have to come back and do another episode on this sometimes, but like, that makes perfect sense. When you think about how God created Adam and what he was supposed to do to transform and cult, cultivate, right? The word cultivate and culture come from the same roots to transform and cultivate the entire world. What was he supposed to do? Plant a garden, tame the animals, right? You know, bake babies. Like, it's, it's not, um, it's not. Rocket science, it's not that difficult. And again, we are all called to different elements of that. And God providentially places us in situations and in, in life, you know, life circumstances, we're not all gonna be able to fulfill every element of that. But that's where this, that's where this becomes sort of the domain of the church, right? The church does all of these things in the culture, and I don't mean the church as institution. I mean like the people who are the church. They do all of these things in very ordinary, normal ways, and that will, that will transform the culture. Um, right. You, you show me a. And this is not, you know, by God's common grace, there are lots of really nice people out there who are more or less honest and have integrity and work hard at their jobs. So it's not as that, that's a uniquely Christian thing. But you show me a, a, a person who is known to be a Christian and works hard as honest is straightforward, is kind, is charitable, is self-sacrificial in, in all arenas of their life. Um, people will notice that and they will see it as different and they will associate it with Christianity. They will as

Tiff and Kristy provide guidance on how to assess your practice's financial health as 2025 begins to wrap up (and what to start thinking about for 2026). They touch on… Reviewing those P&Ls monthly Aligning spending habits Keeping emotions in check And more! Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I am so excited to be here with you today. I truly love this portion of what we get to do in our worlds and getting to get you so much valuable information out to the masses is something that Dental A Team has worked and strived just so hard to achieve in our.   consulting world of just getting you all this information and I have with me today one of my faves. I seriously, I have the most amazing consulting team and if you guys haven't heard from all of them yet, you soon will and if you don't know them personally yet, they're not your consultants. I hope that you get to meet every single one of us even if you're just coming to the events, however it is, but I...   have a personal favorite here for recording podcasts with. She calms me, she just keeps the energy light and fresh and I love any time that we get together. Kristy, thank you so much for being here today. How are you doing? The weather is like weird today. I always tell everybody about the Arizona weather and it's so much fun to have everybody here in the same place. We all live in Arizona in the Phoenix area. Jane is down in the Tucson area, but.   We really love it. And Kristy, how's your world over there? You're just in the beautiful little pocket of Phoenix. And how is it?   DAT Kristy (01:23) Yeah, it's awesome. I love that you say that because we do pride ourselves on the weather here, right? But even with that, this weekend we got a lot of rain, what they say the most in like seven years. Yet all of us, even as close as we are, we experience it so different, right? Like some places flooded. I didn't get flooding, thank goodness, but it downpoured. It was fun and it's made it for cool mornings. So we're taking it.   The Dental A Team (01:42) Yeah.   I agree. I agree that humidity is hitting us hard. So we're not super used to that, but it is making for some, some really beautiful mornings. totally agree. And yes, Britt and I were actually in Reno at our quarterly in-person traction event where we have a, implementer who comes in and leads it for us. And he helps us to build out the company structure and,   teaches and trains us on how to run large meetings like that. So it's always super cool. But we were up in Reno with Britt and or with Kiera Shelbi and Britt and I actually got stuck. Jenna got out. She got back to Denver, which is crazy because Denver always shuts down. And so she got back to Denver. But ⁓ we got stuck until Saturday because the airport was shut down. And then there was a storm in Vegas because we thought, OK, well, we'll fly to Vegas because it's only a five and a half hour drive from there and we'll still get home. And then ⁓   that flight got canceled too. So it was wild. was meant to be, got more time in Reno and got to spend a little bit more time with Kiera. So that was great, but it was kind of crazy. It's not usually Phoenix that disrupts the flight patterns. And it was a hundred percent Phoenix. There were so many flights canceled because so many planes were stuck here and other planes couldn't get in. So it was wild, Kristy. It was wild to watch it from afar. We just got like TikTok notifications and you know, news articles are like, my gosh, all the Waymo's stuck in the puddles and things like that. So.   DAT Kristy (03:15) Yeah,   they just stopped in the middle of the road like what the heck.   The Dental A Team (03:18) Yeah,   that's why whenever somebody says, you use the way most? I'm like, heck no, I have seen them stuck in the middle of intersections far too many times. I'm sure one day it's going to be fantastic, but I haven't built that trust muscle just yet.   DAT Kristy (03:30) Yeah, agree. Well, I'm glad you made it home safe. And ⁓ yeah, the humidity is odd for us too.   The Dental A Team (03:34) Thank you.   Yeah,   yeah, it totally is. And my son was like, Oh, you go to the East Coast enough, Mom, you're fine. Stop complaining. And I was like, Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. But but in the spirit of planning, we we truly had an amazing time really just one getting the time together as a leadership team and then to really looking and projecting like where are we at? What's Q4 going to look like? And then also kind of prepping and planning for 2026. So super relevant in this conversation here.   today and really looking at ⁓ practice health from a financial standpoint. And this is something that your CPAs and your financial advisors and all of those professionals should be looking at with you as well. This is the time of the year that we're really looking at what is this last year? Because we get to Q4 and it's like, well, it's kind of like the end of your senior year, right? You get to the end of your senior year of high school or college and you're like, well, everything's kind of basically submitted. So from here,   It's really just like, let's do our best and make sure that we really cross that finish line strong, but there's not a ton of pivots to be made to really change the game. So kind of prepping and planning. And I think looking ahead at 2026, putting in some really solid ways of checking in on that financial health, something that I've seen that, Kristy, I know you do this as well, but something I've seen a lot of clients really ramp up is a monthly pulse and even like,   weekly sometimes pulse on what the financials of a practice actually look like has really been beneficial in helping them to really reach those goals. And Kristy, you are really fantastic at figuring those financial goals out and then like backtracking them to see, okay, well, what do we need to do to get there? And how do you help practices really keep that financial pulse top of mind and that   running that way so that they're constantly looking at those numbers without feeling overwhelmed and also without losing sight of it. Because you know sometimes you do something too often, you start glazing over it. What's that fine balance that some some tactical tips that you have that you and your practices are working on right now?   DAT Kristy (05:52) Yeah, well, first and foremost, I believe that you have to be getting your P &Ls from your accountant monthly, right? We can't be waiting. I have seen some clients where they're begging for them for three months ago, you know, and it makes it really hard to stay on top of it if we're not getting them monthly. So first and foremost, make sure you're getting them from them monthly so that we can take a look at them and evaluate. And I like what you said, Tiff. ⁓   you can be, you can go over the top. It's a fine line, right? So I love looking at them every month and I'm not going to freak out if something's out of whack one month, but certainly let's look at the quarter, right? And make sure that those metrics are in alignment for the quarter. And to your point, I always like to speak in terms of like, we're going to crawl before we walk and we're going to walk before we run. Like,   In the crawling stage, let's just make sure where's your overhead, right? What percentage are we at there and what is our profit or EBITDA, so to speak, right? Where are we ranging there? That would be my first little steps to take and start looking at it.   The Dental A Team (07:10) Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think what time of the month do you usually push for those PNLs to be received? I have my judgments, but what are yours?   DAT Kristy (07:21) like to say by the 15th. I'll give you a little grace and give you by the 20th, but the 15th is my ideal target.   The Dental A Team (07:28) Yeah, yeah. I think I'm a little stricter. If I don't have those CPAs reaching out to us by like the eighth to the 10th, I'm like, my gosh, how are we supposed to work with this? There's a lot of, and I ask that because there's a lot of clients out there that are getting them like the first week of the next, next month. And so maybe December, we're finally looking at October.   DAT Kristy (07:35) Thank   The Dental A Team (07:53) And that is like, gosh, such a lag that we've got these questions floating around of like, where's my cashflow TIF and how do I fix this, Kristy? And it's like, I don't know, because I don't have eyes on what's happening. The P &Ls should be much quicker and much cleaner than that. And realistically, it's just it's the bookkeeper going in and allocating the certain expenses to the category that they should be in. So it's time consuming.   but it shouldn't be too crazy. And if yours is too crazy, then we probably need to look at your spending. Do we need to dial back the number of orders that you're placing every month? Do we need to make sure that things are a little bit more simple on that side, that it can be done quicker? Because we wanna be able to make real-time adjustments as quickly as we can. If we're on a two-month lag.   then we're adjusting for two months ago, it could look totally different. And then next month we get two months ago and it's like, it was totally different. We didn't need to change it. And so we're just constantly spinning our wheels in that way if we're not getting the data fast enough. And that is, in my opinion, one of the easiest ways to ensure that you're financially healthy is really just ensuring, like you said, Kristy, that on an overtime basis, things are consistent and they're clear, that they make sense.   DAT Kristy (09:08) 100%. I like that you said push to the 10th, because obviously if, you know, in the walk or crawling stage, we're just learning, right? We have a little bit of buffer, but as we get to the top of our game, it should be more. And if everything is electronically done, it really is in there already. It's just a matter of organizing it, right?   The Dental A Team (09:30) Yeah, and I like to give myself the grace because I know or give them the grace. I typically know if we ask for it by the 10th, we're getting it by the 15th to the 20th. If I give them that leeway, they'll take it. And we know that's just how it works in that world. That's fine. We work with what we've got and figure it out. And I think it's a massive place to start, Kristy, is those P &Ls. And I think the P &Ls really outline   DAT Kristy (09:39) Thank   The Dental A Team (09:56) the financial health in so many different areas because it gives us insight to what is actually happening. Having those categories split out, we've talked about that a ton, we've done a ton of webinars on it and if you need help with that, reach out. We've got really simple sheets and documents that you can even send over to your bookkeepers and your CPAs that kind of outlines what we like it to look like so that it's simple to review.   But being able to see those over time is huge. I know I have a client that like one month was 48 % overhead and that's before Dr. Pay, that's before loans, right? And it's like, holy cow, we killed it. But then it's like, okay, but hold on, because the next month was 64%. So taking an average there because likely something got shifted, payments got posted, or I don't know, I've had some clients that's like, my gosh, I forgot to pay Henry Schein for two months. So then it's like that third month had this massive Henry Schein payment.   but over the quarter, it wasn't that bad. So making sure that we're looking at it month by month and over the quarter is huge. ⁓ Something that we've done, that we've ramped up ourselves and that we do ramp up with a lot of clients is really looking at our bank accounts constantly. And I know that Kiera and our financial team, they look at our bank accounts weekly on a weekly basis to make sure that everything makes sense, that things are.   where they're supposed to be that, you know, that we're not getting charged for things we shouldn't have been, et cetera, but then also that we're staying in alignment with the budget that we had set. And those budgets come from those P &Ls and those total numbers. Kristy, something I've realized recently in the recent years is while I was in practice, I would build our budgets for our spending. like our...   you know, five to 8 % for supplies or what have you or ortho budget, things like that. I would build it based off of our collections, air quotes on that word, and it would be our collections from Dendrix. I'd pull the collections for the last month. I'd build that budget based on the collections. And then Doc would be like, where's all the money? Like, well, I don't know, it should be there. But there's such caveats to what's been posted in Dendrix or your operating software.   compared to what's actually in QuickBooks, I found that I was running this like ragged race of trying to play catch up all the time with like even just the percentages for credit card fees and third party financing being taken out of our payments, just those simple tweaks make a massive difference. So building those budgets, Kristy, off of our actual P &L numbers, our actual QuickBooks collections has...   made a massive difference, I know, for a lot of my clients. How do you see that working for clients? And also, how do you see that working with a leadership team that maybe doesn't have access to or not looking at those P &Ls together? How do you suggest for financial stability and health in the practice, they really get that information down to the people that need it?   DAT Kristy (13:08) Yeah, absolutely. One of the things, ⁓ well, there's a couple things. We at Dental A Team keep scorecards for our clients and it could be as simple as adding that line in there and having the doctor put that dollar amount and having the budget calculate right there. Everybody can see it. They know what to spend. The other thing to that point Tiff is,   You know, a lot of times we look at the practice management, we see our collections, but how many times do we reconcile it with our QuickBooks? Like, really look at that and see. And obviously, just like you said, it could be a matter of when something was posted or when it came in, right, to the bank account. But I think that's an area that sometimes is overlooked. You know, there can be variance in there, obviously, for when things post, but...   what is that variance and how consistent are we having that variance? again, depending on which method you're using, if you're using the collections from your PMS or the collections that are posted in the P &L, we better be clear what that difference is and ⁓ account for it for sure. Right.   The Dental A Team (14:25) Totally agree.   And you actually reminded me just last week, I was in an office and I was like, what is happening here? I was going through their P and L and I'm like, okay, we've got, we've had some changes in the office. We've got some places that it was decreasing. Some places we spent more, some places we actively spent more on purpose. Like, but things just weren't adding up with what was coming through from the software. And I realized after an hour and a half of digging, I'm like, why is...   I put a line items, I updated the scorecard and I put a line item for like QuickBooks collections and then the PMS collections. And in comparison, I had it subtract and like tell me the difference in numbers. And there were months that were coming up $30,000 different that it looked like we collected $30,000 more in their software than what QuickBooks was showing us. Luckily, I know this office manager very well personally, like familiarly.   And I'm like, I know there's no conclusion to jump to here. Like something is not reporting correctly. And what I realized is they specifically use Dentrix. Dentrix will allocate any positive write-off or adjustment. if there's an adjustment that's adding money, it'll allocate it to production. If there's an adjustment that's removing money, it automatically adds it to collections.   So when you pull up the adjustment space in Dentrix, it'll show all positive production, all negative collections. So it was showing drastic differences. And so I was like, gosh, I totally forgot about this space in Dentrix that it does this. It's just, I call them the Dentrix-isms. It's just a Dentrix thing. It's very frustrating, but it just is what it is. So when I went through, I reallocated where the write-offs should be coming from. Now, caveat, messes up.   production collections for forever because it's now correcting it. So what you thought you had done, you didn't, and it fixes it. So the new numbers are more accurate, but you're going to be frustrated because it's different. But what it did when I did that and re-put in the collections numbers is that it brought that $30,000 difference down to a more manageable $1,200 to $3,000 difference, which is what we tend to see with the   care credit fees and all those different credit card processing fees, we typically see, I say like 5,000 or less, I'm not going to freak out about too much as long as it's inconsistent. I don't want to see consistency. I want to see really low numbers. And then again, sometimes some of that money is going to be pushed over to the next month. So quarterly, it made sense. Quarterly, it was beautiful. Month by month, it was a little wonky, but just making that   change because we were checking the financial health of the practice because things didn't feel like they were making sense. So we, the office manager and I pulled the full year's PNL and we did line item by line item comparison 2024 to 2025 percentage change on each space, went through and figured out where the spending was, went through and line itemed everything and then added it like you said to the scorecard to see those differences, massive.   massive improvements where the docs were feeling like cashflow was like, ⁓ we were freaking out. And it was like, well, these are the areas where you intentionally spent money and were actually only a 16 % difference overall year to year. And they were like, ⁓ so we didn't increase enough, but their spending was purposeful for taxes. We just didn't look that way yet on paper.   Regarding financial health of the practice, that was exactly what we did, but adding it, like you said, to the scorecard and looking at, I think the scorecard's just really cool because it allows you to see over time. Whereas a new sheet is I'm only dealing with today. So I'm only looking at today. I might look at it and say, oh my gosh, my employee percentage was 42%. That's real life, I've seen that in an office. It was 42 % this month, and you're like, cut hours. But over the quarter, it was,   30 % or 31%. We had a spike because we had a collections dip or whatever. So I think adding it where you're seeing that kind of comparison allows you to see what is the trend here or is this an abnormality? Does this level itself out? Am I on track for over time or do I need to jump and hot fire? And Kristy with that said, like, you think, as I'm saying that I'm thinking,   Is that a space where we could even tame our emotions around finances? Because we're seeing so much data in a bigger spectrum where we can see trends, uptrends or downtrends, rather than this like, my gosh, payroll was so high, I've got to tackle that. It's allowing us to see a broader picture. Do you think that helps reduce some of the emotional, like just quick fixes?   DAT Kristy (19:34) Absolutely. And we don't want to react, right? Many times we go to that mindset of cut, cut, cut. you, and you know, one of the things that I learned a long time ago is you can't focus on the opposite. So if we're focused on cutting, then we're not focused on producing, right? And so yeah, you're 100 % right, Tiff. I think it does calm the reactionary, right? It's good to know, notice, but then look at the bigger picture.   The Dental A Team (19:48) Yeah.   Mmm.   Yeah, gorgeous. As I was talking like, my gosh, Kristy, that's why you do so well with coaching in my opinion, because you are very, very good at being data and results driven, acknowledging the emotional aspect and not discrediting that by any means, but being able to focus back to what the drivers are and then being able to acknowledge and address any emotions that are still present. But you do well removing that because   we're looking at data and data is non-emotional. You can come up with something and there's been so many times where I could think of so many offhand where I've data-drivenly discussed something with a client and they're like, ⁓ and the emotion kind of disintegrates, it dissipates because it was attached to what they thought to be true. And when they saw the reality, there was no need for that emotion anymore.   DAT Kristy (20:59) Exactly. Well, and to be honest with you, it goes both ways, right? It's the same thing as if we're only looking at the practice numbers, sometimes they think they're doing very well or not doing well, either one. And then once we look at the overhead numbers, it's like, actually, you're here, you know? So ⁓ it goes hand in hand both ways. I always like to say, you know, if I had a pizza business and I was going to sell pizzas,   The Dental A Team (21:18) Yeah. Yeah.   I love that.   DAT Kristy (21:29) I need to break it down and figure out what it cost me to make the pizza, then I can go sell the pizza. But so many times we don't do that and we just put it out in front of us, right? And then on the back end of it, we do have to measure how many pizzas did we sell and how much did we actually spend. Sometimes we forget to go back and look at the cost too.   The Dental A Team (21:34) Yup.   Yeah, wow, that's a very good point. Very good point, which is where the P &Ls come in handy and the line items. And I think the P &Ls will group it and lump it into categories, but every now and again, maybe like once a quarter or so, really looking at what are they putting in those categories so that one, you're making sure they're still super accurate from the bookkeeper and two, that you're not like Amazon spending. There was a couple clients that I saw.   DAT Kristy (21:56) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (22:19) I'm like, what is going on? Why is this category so jumpy? One month it's massive, another month it's not, and they get lumped into office supplies and front office supplies, and all of a sudden it's $3,000 when realistically budgeting-wise it should be $1,200. I'm like, what is in here? And they're like, Amazon goes in there. Every time we want something or Doc says something, we just press the order. And I was like, ⁓   Got it, we need some systems around Amazon or Walmart. I've seen like, I just run to Walmart and I grab what we need every week. And I'm like, my gosh, there's weekly ordering will hurt you every single time. Any kind of weekly ordering. If you can't budget the ordering in a monthly fashion or maybe twice a month, I'll give leniency on twice a month, then we need to talk. Cause that weekly ordering will hurt you every single time.   I think this is all really good, Kristy. I love this. I love this. And I go ahead.   DAT Kristy (23:16) Yeah. I was   to say, I agree with you. mean, we can liken it to our own space if we go to the grocery store with a list or without a list. What is our end result when we pay? You know, so I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm like for dental supplies, we can go to twice a month, but have it fixed and then make sure you're staying within the confines of the budget.   The Dental A Team (23:27) Yeah.   Yes, yeah, that's actually brilliant. Yeah.   Yeah, I agree. And I think that was that was a super great thought process there. Because if you're not planning even your dinners, right, I'll plan my dinners for the week. So then I know what ingredients I need and what ingredients if I know what ingredients I need for specific dinners, I know what I can reuse as well. Otherwise, I'm going to the grocery store just kind of getting random things that I think I can make into something. And I'm ending up at the grocery store a couple times a week to replenish or, you know, supply those missing pieces.   And so if you know what your schedule is, if you know on average how many crowns you're doing, how many fillings you're doing, how many implants you're doing, you can have an average guesstimate of how much of each supply you need to keep on hand, which is then going into your budget for your ordering. So that was beautiful. Yeah, good job. All right, guys, financial health is massive. And it's something that I think all of us, Kristy,   Trish, Monica, Dana, myself, we all just work really, really hard to ensure that it's top of mind for all of our clients. But if you're here listening and you're not yet a client of ours and you're a Dental A Team podcast listener for life, we love you and we wanna make sure you have this information too. please, by all means, somewhere around the 10th of the month, because we know it's probably gonna go longer, make sure you've got those panels in there. Talk to your bookkeeper. If you are the bookkeeper, I have a couple clients like that.   Put it your calendar, you guys. If you are your own bookkeeper, that's fine. I'm not gonna judge you. I think it is a task that you can easily pay for, but I'm not here for that. If you are your bookkeeper, put it in your calendar and you should have that sucker done by like the fifth or the eighth of the month because everything should be closed out. Review your PNLs monthly and quarterly and yearly. Review your spending habits constantly. I have a lot of practices that'll look weekly.   I have a lot of practices that'll look monthly, whichever works best for you. Just make sure you're reviewing those spending habits and then budget for your team. So your supplies ordering, your front office, those are the easiest places to budget. Make sure that you've got an ortho budget added in there. If you have ortho fees and ortho costs that are outside of like Invisalign, things like that. I have a lot of practices that do bracket style ortho and they need a lot of supplies that has to be separated out.   Those are your pieces, you guys. Those are the easiest ways that you can tackle real life, real life, in time, financial health. And we want you to go do that. Kristy, thank you so much for your insight. You truly do so well with your clients and we get to see their progress constantly and those needles are always moving. And I know that it's because you can take that black and white results driven perspective. So thank you for everything you do for your clients and everything that you bring to Dental A Team every day.   DAT Kristy (26:33) Thank you, it's fun.   The Dental A Team (26:35) I know,   I know, I love watching you do it. You really do love it. And it makes me really happy. All right, guys, that's a wrap for today. Go leave us a five star review. Let us know what was super helpful. Maybe there's some tips and tricks you've got that you can share with the world. I'm telling you, people really do go read those. So if you have things in there, they will see them. You can drop us an email, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We'll be happy to get you over any documents that might help. We do have some.   budgeting information, we do have some overhead spreadsheets, things like that. If you need help with that, just reach out and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast. Thanks guys!

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I do a coaching call with Joanna who has a 2-year-old and a 7-year-old. We cover how to make mindset shifts so you can better show up for your kids, as well as get into specifics around night weaning, bedtime battles, handling meltdowns, playful parenting and increasing our connection to our kids.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:40 how to manage meltdowns* 9:00 Night weaning and bedtime challenges* 20:00 Emptying a full emotional backpack* 26:00 Kids who always want more attention* 28:00 Understanding blame and anger* 38:00 Games to play when a child is looking for more power* 44:00 How our mindset makes such a big difference when parenting* 47:30 Two keys to peaceful parenting!* 55:00 Playful approaches to bedtimeResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* How to Help Our Little Ones Sleep with Kim Hawley * Episode 100: When Your Child Has a Preferred Parent (or Not) with Sarah and Corey * Episode 103: Playful Parenting with Lawrence Cohen * Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski: Episode 186 xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today's episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Joanna, mom of a 7-year-old and a 2-year-old. Joanna's 7-year-old is an intense child, and she wanted to know how to handle her big feelings and find more connection with her.She also had some specific challenges around bedtime, namely that her partner works shift work and is not home at bedtime. She still breastfeeds her 2-year-old to sleep, so is unavailable to her seven-year-old for a bit, and then has trouble getting her seven-year-old to bed without a fight. Joanna also shared how low she was on resources, and we had a great discussion about how that impacts her parenting and what she might do about it.Also, meltdowns—we talked about those too and how to respond. I know Joanne is not alone. One note: after we did the follow-up call, I realized I forgot to ask her about a few things. So she kindly recorded a couple of P.S.'s that I'll include. If you're curious, like I am, you'll be glad she gave us the latest updates.If you would like to come on the podcast and be coached by me, I am looking for a few parents who are interested. You can email me at sarah@sarahrosensweet.com.As always, please give us a five-star rating and a review on your favorite podcast app, and if you know another parent or caregiver that this would be helpful for, please screenshot it and send it to them. The best way to reach more families with peaceful parenting is through word of mouth, so we really appreciate any shares that you might be able to give us.Okay. Let's meet Joanna. Okay.Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome to the podcast.Joanna: Hi. Thanks for having me.Sarah: Tell me a little bit about yourself.Joanna: Sure. I live up in Ottawa, Canada, with my husband and my two kids. I'm a music therapist, so right now I'm working with babies. I teach Yoga with Baby and, um, a class called Sing and Sign at a local wellness center.Sarah: Nice. How old are—Joanna: Yes, I have a 7-year-old girl who we'll call Jay.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: And then a 2-year-old boy called JR.Sarah: JJ. Okay, perfect. Okay, so how can I support you today?Joanna: Yeah, so my daughter has always been, like, a bit of a tricky one. Um. She was born premature, so at 29 weeks. And no kind of lasting effects. But as she's gotten older, we've noticed, like, she's really struggled a lot with emotional regulation. Um, and she kind of gets stuck on certain behaviors. So I feel like we've done a lot to change our parenting, in part thanks to you and your podcast and all the material. Um, I did finally read, um, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids this past summer.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And I feel like it also had a huge effect, just having, like, that bigger scope of understanding of, like, the peaceful parenting philosophy.Sarah: Uh-huh.Joanna: So I would say, like, even from where we were a few months ago, we've experienced tons of positive shifts with her.Sarah: Sweet.Joanna: Yeah, so we're already kind of well on our way, but there are certain behaviors that she has that still I find really perplexing. So I wondered if maybe we could go over a couple of them.Sarah: Sure. Yeah, no problem. For anyone—if, for anyone who doesn't know, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids is the book written by my mentor, who I trained with, Dr. Laura Markham. Um, and just for my own curiosity, what do you think? Because, you know, I always worry that people are—that they don't have the fully formed idea of peaceful parenting. And that—and I'm not saying you, because you've listened to the podcast so you probably have a deeper understanding—but some people are just getting their little snippets on Instagram reels, you know, and so it is hard to understand, like, the, the sort of the core reasons why we do the approach if you don't have that deeper understanding. And also, I'm working on a book right now, so hopefully soon you'll be able to say you read my book. But what did you—what do you feel like got fleshed out for you when you read that book?Joanna: I think she really breaks a lot of things down step by step, such as, like, what to do when your child is going through a meltdown.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And that has always been an area—like, when my daughter gets to that point where she's, like, become really explosive and aggressive and she's just, like, in it and she's kind of unreachable at that moment—like, what to do step by step at that time. I think, like, that's been the most helpful because I've been able to really settle into my own parenting and just, like, really trust myself and anchor in at that point, which is exactly really what she needs and what was missing.Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.Joanna: So—Sarah: So I think, um—like I always say, focus on regulating yourself first. Like, when someone's having a meltdown, empathize.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Um, you know, it—yeah, it's—it can be hard because you often feel like you need to do something. And even though you're saying step by step, it's less about doing anything than just centering yourself, staying calm yourself, trying to get in touch with the compassion and empathy even if you're not—some pe—some parents say, “Oh, well, when I try to say anything, then my kid just screams more.” So sometimes it's just empathize—like, getting connected in your own heart to the empathy and compassion, even if you're not saying anything—and that, that does something.Joanna: Absolutely it does. Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Yeah, so that's all been really helpful. Now, in—in terms of emotional regulation, I do definitely think that that's the biggest piece.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: Uh, it's been the biggest piece for me and sort of, like, one of the big things that I wanted to talk to you about today is we are still really not getting sleep because my 2-year-old is not a good sleeper and has never been a good sleeper. And we've gone through periods where I'm like, okay, now he's only waking up, like, twice a night, and that feels manageable. Um, but he's kind of been back to waking up, like, three to six times a night again, which is so hard. And then my husband's very supportive; however, he works afternoons, so he's gone from about 3:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so he needs to be able to sleep until about eight, which means I'm up with my son between six and seven. My daughter gets up for school around 7:30, so that's, like, a tricky time of day because she's really quite grumpy in the morning. He's not—the toddler's really, like, kind of a totally different temperament. But, like, I'm tired after struggling with, like, night wakings all night. And then I'm with the kids from the time that she gets home from school, um, and then doing both bedtimes myself.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Um, so there's a lot of time where, like, I am solo parenting, and I'm definitely, like, the preferred parent. Um, and both my kids really want me and need me at bedtime. So he is still nursing—like, I'm nursing to sleep and then nursing during the night. And I know that that's probably contributing a lot to all the night wakings. So, I guess my question is, like, I am at the point where I am ready to night-wean. I probably should have done it already, but—Sarah: Don't say “should have.” Like, it's—if you're not ready to make that change, like, in your heart, it's really torturous to try to—try to, like, not—so say you decide you want to night-wean, but you weren't really ready to do it. It would be so painful for you to deny your son nursing in the night if you were—if you didn't feel in your heart, like, “No, this is the right thing to do. I'm totally ready. I think he's ready.” So, so I think waiting until you're really, like, actually, yes, “I'm done with this,” is a smart thing. Yeah. So don't beat yourself up for not having done it already. But you're right, it probably does contribute to him waking up in the night.Joanna: Yeah. And, um, I do feel like I—I'm ready. I just—I'm not quite sure how to make that shift. So what generally happens is, like, we have some, like, virtual babysitting going on with my mom, where, like, when I nurse my son to sleep, which generally takes, like, between maybe 30 and 45 minutes, she'll, like, sit with her and do a workbook. So we'll have, like, a video chat, and then after—Sarah: Yeah, it's great.Joanna: So then after, um, I'm with her to get her ready for bed, and that oftentimes looks like a lot of, like, dragging heels on, like, “Oh, I want another snack,” and “I wanna, like, brush my teeth,” and “Whatever—don't wanna brush my teeth.” So, um, then that ends up taking usually about an hour, but we both sort of have, like, this expiration at about 9:00 PM, where, like, she just gets so dysregulated because she's so tired.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: So if I don't have her in bed at that point and, like, already kind of with the lights out, there's often just, like, a meltdown and some—like, she'll start calling me names and start, like, you know, throwing stuff down at me and whatnot. And then I'm just really tired by that point too. Yeah. So we can kind of joke around about it now—like, nine o'clock is the time where we're, like, where we both expire. So I'm trying to figure out, like, how can I night-wean? Because I know that that is supposed to start with, like, him being able to fall asleep by himself at the beginning of the night, so—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Slowly phasing that out and laying with him. I know it's gonna probably take a lot longer in the beginning, so I'm just a little worried that, like, maybe if it takes, like, an hour, an hour and a half, then all of a sudden she's kind of, like, left hanging and it's getting later and her bedtime's being pushed back.Sarah: Are there any—are there any nights that your partner is home at bedtime?Joanna: There's two—Sarah: nights that—Joanna: he—Sarah: is,Joanna: yeah.Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start with those nights.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah. Start with those nights. And—and when was your son's birthday? Like, like how—two—is he—Joanna: He just turned two, like, two weeks ago.Sarah: Okay. So, I mean, I think I would start with trying to just practice, you know, nursing him and maybe nursing him somewhere else and then bringing him back, you know, and then putting him in—are you co-sleeping?Joanna: Sleep—yeah. Well, I put him—like, I generally nurse him to sleep. He has a floor bed in his room, and then I go to bed in my own room, and then at his first wake, then I go back in, and I just stay there for the room—the rest of the night from that point.Sarah: Right, right. So I, I guess I would try just, like, nursing him and trying to, like, pat his back and sing to him and, you know, tell him that—that he can have—I, I mean, what we did was, “You can have milk in the morning,” you know, “You could have it when it's light.” I remember my oldest son—when he—it took him a couple of days—and if you wanna hear the whole story of my failed night-weaning with my second son, it was in a podcast that we did about infant and toddler sleep, uh, with Kim.Joanna: Yeah, Kim?Sarah: Yes. So you could listen to that if you haven't heard that already. But my second—my first son was super easy to night-wean, and a couple of—it was, like, a couple of nights of a little bit of crying, and he would just say, “Make it light, Mama. Make it light,” because he wanted—I said, “You can nurse when it's light.” But, you know, I, I, I don't wanna get into that whole big thing on this podcast because—mm-hmm—just because I've already talked about it. But if you wanna listen to that, and if you have any questions when we do our follow-up, you can, uh, you can ask me. But, you know, I would just try, you know, talking to him about, then, you know, “You can have Milky in the morning,” or whatever you call it, and, you know, those two—see how it goes for those two nights where your partner's around. And if it doesn't—I would say, if it still seems really hard, maybe just waiting to do it until—I don't know if you have any other support you could enlist. You mentioned your mother—maybe she could come and visit, you know, because I do think it would be hard to try and do this and do the solo bedtimes for a while. So I don't know if there's a time when your mom could come visit or if there's some other support that you could have. But yeah—Joanna: I think the tricky part with that is that, like, she—even with my husband—like, she doesn't want him to put her to bed.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And depending on the kind of night that she's having, sometimes she'll end up, like, screaming, and their bedrooms are right beside each other. So we've had it before where, like, she'll start having a meltdown and, like, wake him up, and then he's not able to fall asleep either. And then we—Sarah: There's also—your husband could be with your son.Joanna: It's the same—same situation though. Like, he doesn't—him—Sarah: It sounds—it sounds like possibly—I mean, there—kids do have preferred parents even when, um, they do have good connection with the—with the other parent. And you could maybe still work—have some—that be something that you're working on, having your partner, you know, maybe even practicing having—before you start doing the night-weaning—practicing having your partner doing some of the bedtime stuff. When you are—when, you know, when—before you're starting to make a change so that your son doesn't associate, you know, “I'm not getting what I want,” and my dad, you know, putting me to sleep.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: So I would maybe try to get your partner a little bit more involved in bedtime before making a change. And—and even if there's some crying—we also have a podcast about preferred parents that you could listen to. So I—you know, I think maybe you do have a little bit of pre-work to do before you start doing the night-weaning, and, in terms of when—how can you get support at bedtime?Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: I mean, the other option is if you just kick it down the road more and—or, you know, there isn't—there's actually a third option now that I think about it—it's that you still nurse him to sleep but then don't nurse him when you wake him up—when he wakes up in the night. Get him to go back to sleep without that.Sarah: I hadn't thought about that, because I think that everything that I've heard has been, like, they have to fall asleep on their own because then they're always gonna be—Joanna: looking—Sarah: for—Joanna: Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: But I mean, you could still try it.Joanna: Hmm. Okay.Sarah: Or you could try shortening the—you know, give him a little bit of milk and then see if he'll go to sleep, um, after he has a little bit, but without nursing to sleep.Joanna: Okay. Yeah. Okay, I'll give that some thought and try some different things there.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Okay. Thank you. But yeah, I feel like just starting to get sleep again is pretty important. So, even in terms of, like, being able to center myself to handle all of the things that goes on with my daughter during the day, that feels like a really important piece right now.Sarah: For sure. And if she's—if she's some nights not going—it sounds like quite frequently maybe she's not asleep before nine.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: And what time does she wake up?Joanna: 7:30.Sarah: 7:30. So do you think she's getting enough sleep?Joanna: Probably not. She's really lethargic in the morning.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: But I can't really seem to figure out how to be able to get her to sleep. Like, I did talk to her about it, and she was like, “Well, maybe when I turn eight, like, I can start putting myself to bed.” And I was like, “Okay, well what—what would that look like?” And she kind of went through, like, “Okay, I'll, you know, I'll brush my teeth on the phone with Grandma, and then I'll just, like, read in bed.” And—but this is, like, in a moment where she's feeling very regulated.Sarah: Right, right, right. And when's her birthday?Joanna: Uh, in about two months.Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Um, have you had a conversation with her about how neither of you likes the fighting at night? And, you know—and does she have any, like—not in the moment, but does she have any ideas of, you know, how you can solve the problem of her not, you know, not wanting to go to bed and then getting too tired and then getting really cranky?Joanna: Yeah, we have—we have talked about it, and we can talk about it with, like, a little bit more levity now, but I don't think that she's actually—we've gone to, like, the problem-solving—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: of that.Sarah: I mean, that might be a helpful conversation to have with her and just say, “You know, I've been thinking about what often happens at night, you know, and I totally get it, that you don't wanna go to bed. Like, you know, when I was a kid, I never wanted to go to bed, and I would've stayed up all night if I could. And I'm sure you're the same because it's just—you know, when you're young, going to bed is, like, you know, not any fun at all.” And you can make—you could even make a joke, like, “When you're old like me, like, you can't wait to go to bed.” But of course when you're young, you don't wanna go to sleep, and I totally get that. So, like, lots of empathy and acknowledging, like, her perspective. And—and then you could say, “And at the same time, you know, you do—you know, why do you think it's important to sleep?” So I guess you could have that conversation with her too about, like, you know, what happens when we're sleeping that—your, you know, you could talk about how your cells, like, fix themselves. Also we grow when we're sleeping—like, we get the—like, the growth hormone gets secreted, and that's the—if we don't get enough sleep, we're not gonna grow and we're not gonna feel happy the next day. So you can, like, talk to her about the importance of sleep. And then you could say, like, “So, you know, I know you don't wanna go to sleep, and I know how important it is, and now you do too. And, you know—and I hate fighting with you at bedtime. You know, do you have any ideas for how we can solve this problem? Because I really want us both to go to bed feeling happy and connected.”Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great suggestion. Thank you. I think the biggest barrier to her getting to bed on time is she is finally feeling, like, a bit more calm and relaxed at night. Like, she comes home after school with a lot—she's holding a lot from school. They have, like, a point system for good behavior at school.Sarah: Oh.Joanna: And you should see how she racks up the points. She has great behavior at school. The teacher's, like—would never believe what goes on at home.Sarah: Of course, yeah.Joanna: So then she comes home, and it's, like, a lot of unloading. So I feel like by that time of night she's, like, ready to pursue her hobbies. Like, she's like, “Oh, I just wanna do this one more little”—you know, she's drawing something, and it's always like, “I just need to finish this,” because once she gets started on something, she can't seem to break her focus on—We're very much suspecting ADHD. That's gonna be probably in the next year we pursue a diagnosis, but—Sarah: Typically—do have a lot of trouble falling asleep—that's with ADHD. What about—you know, so two outta three of my kids had a lot of trouble falling asleep, and they're both my ADHD kids, and what really helped them was something to listen to at night. You know—Joanna: Yeah, she does listen to podcasts falling asleep—Sarah: Does listen to stuff.Joanna: Yeah, she's always listened—listened to, like, a story falling asleep. I think part of it too is we don't get a lot of one-on-one time throughout the day.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: Because my son's around in the morning.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: And it's usually just the three of us until my husband wakes up, which is shortly before she goes to school. And then it's again the three of us from after school till bedtime most days, except for the two days a week that he's off.Sarah: Well, I mean, that's something to explore too, like, in—are there, you know—I don't know if you live in a neighborhood that has some, like, tweens that could come over and play with your son for an hour—you know, just someone really fun that he would like to play with—and then you and your daughter could have some time together. Because what I was gonna say when you said that she comes home with what we call the “full backpack” in Peaceful Parenting—which is, she's been carrying around, for anyone who's listening who doesn't know what that is, it's a concept that my mentor, Dr. Laura, came up with—where you're holding on to all of the stresses, big feelings, tensions from the day, and then when you come home, it's too much to, you know, to keep holding onto it. And so that's what you were just referring to, is just that she's got a lot to unpack after the day at school. And so I'm wondering—so when you mentioned that, I was gonna say, like, what could you do to try to proactively get some of that emptied out? Couple of ideas: do you do any roughhousing with her?Joanna: We actually just started doing that, and I couldn't believe how much she was into it. Yeah, I was super surprised. But I also think that it's taken just a lot of, like, repair with our relationship to get to the point that I've even been able to try some of this stuff. Like, because at first, like, when I first started hearing about some of these, like, peaceful—I, I don't know if you'd call them techniques—but, like, being playful and, um, roughhousing and things like that—she was so not open to anything at all because she was just so serious and so edgy and like, “Get away from me,” like, so irritable. So now I think that we've just—I've poured a lot of time in on weekends just to, like, spend time together that's enjoyable, and I'm noticing a huge shift. So now we are able to do some of these things, and it—it is turning out more positively.Sarah: Good. I mean, as you're speaking, I'm thinking that it sounds like there was maybe, um, quite a—a breach when your son was born, like, the last two years. Or, or do you feel like your relationship has always been a little strained even before that?Joanna: I feel like maybe it's always been a little fraught. I don't know if his birth had, like, a huge impact on that. Um, it has always been pretty strained.Sarah: Okay, okay.Joanna: Just because she's the more challenging kid?Sarah: I think so. And, you know, when she was two there was the pandemic. I think, like, I was carrying a lot of trauma after the whole NICU experience with her. And then we had the pandemic, and then we moved, and then I got pregnant, and then I had my son. So it's like there's sort of been these, like, things along the way where—yeah, I don't know.Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, that's good that you brought that up because I think that, you know, maybe that's gonna be the pre-work—that even before bedtime starts to feel better is really working on—you know, if you can get some support in, because it is really hard to have one-on-one time with a 2-year-old who probably doesn't wanna leave you alone. But even if—you know, continue with your sort of bulking up on the weekends with that time with her and do some, like, roughhousing and special time with her. Do you guys do special time?Joanna: Yeah. And that's something I wanted to talk about because special time has been sort of a big fail when I call it special time and when we set a timer for special time, because it really tends to dysregulate her, I think, because she's like, “Oh my God, I only have you for 15 minutes.” Mm-hmm. She gets really stressed out, and then she's like—oftentimes she likes to do these, like, elaborate pretend plays—things which need, like, a lot, a lot of setup time. Yeah. So she'll be like, “Pause the timer so I can set this up,” and then it just becomes, like, more tension between us. Like, it's not enjoyable.Sarah: It's one of those things where, like, you really have to adjust it to how it works for your particular family. Um, so, you know, maybe you just have, like, a couple hours with her on the weekend and you're—and it would be good for your—your partner and your son too. Maybe he could take him to the park or go and—you know, for them to work on their connection, which might make him a little bit more willing to go to bed with his dad, you know, on the nights that your partner is home. So, you know, I would really work on that connection with her and do those pretend play things with her. And even—you know, and this is maybe obvious, which is why I didn't say it before—but, you know, partly she's dragging her heels because that's the only time she has you to herself—at bedtime, right?Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: And so she doesn't want that to end because that's the only time that it—her brother's asleep—she has you all to herself. So if you can increase the time where she has you all to herself, she might be more willing to, um, to go to bed. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, do you have anything that you do together at bedtime that would be, like—it sounds like she's dragging her heels to actually get in bed. Is there anything that you can do to entice her to get in bed, like a chapter book that you're reading her, that you read a chapter every night or something like that?Joanna: Yeah, and that has worked in the past, but it can—it can also kind of cause tension because I find, like, then I am a lot more apt to kind of hold it as, like, a bargaining chip instead of, like, “Oh, let's get to that.” Right. But lately we've been playing cards, and she's really motivated to, like, play a game of cards when we're in bed. So that seems to be working right now, but it's always kind of like—it changes all the time.Sarah: Right, right. Well, just keeping—thinking of something that you can use to make getting in bed seem more attractive? Um, maybe—I mean, my kids used to love hearing stories about me when I was little or about them when they were little. So it could even just be, like, a talk time. I know Corey, who works with me, does—she started doing a 10-minute talk time with one of her sons, who's a little bit older than—than your daughter, but where they just have, you know, this time where they just get in bed and he tells her stuff and they—they talk. So that could be something too—just really pure, straight-up connection.Joanna: Yeah. Okay, I like that. Maybe I can just ask you a couple more things about some of the things I—She's kind of a person that really wants constant connection too. Like, it does feel like I could spend, like, all day with her, and then she—once it's over, she would still be like, “Well, why are we not still—” like, it—we've always kind of—my husband and I will joke that she's got, like, a leaky cup because it's, like, “Just fill up their cup,” but it doesn't seem to matter. He used to play with her for, like, two to three hours when she was younger, and then at the end she would just, like, not be satisfied. Like, it didn't seem like anything was going to, like, fill her cup.Sarah: And that—you know what, there are kids like that. I remember I had this client once whose son actually said to her, “Mama, all the—all the hours in the world are not enough time with you.” And there are some kids that are really just like that. And, you know, I'm not sure how you respond when she says, like, you know, “But we hardly even got to play,” after you play for three hours. I mean, that playful—like, “Oh my gosh, like, what if we could just play all day?” You know, either, like, playful response of, like, “We could play for 27 hours,” you know, “and—and—and we would still have so much fun together.” Or just pure empathy, you know, like, “Oh no, it just feels like it's never enough time, is it?”Joanna: And it almost seems like sometimes when I am empathetic, it almost, like, fuels her anger. I don't know if you've ever heard that before from anybody else, but—eh, I don't know. Like, we had a situation with—like, she was looking for a specific bear last weekend—a teddy bear that she's missing—because she wanted to bring it to a teddy bear picnic. And so we were sort of, like, you know, we had to get out the door to go to this party. She couldn't find this bear, and I was, like, you know, offering a lot of empathy, and just, like—the more that I was like, “I know, like, you're so frustrated; you're so disappointed that you can't find your bear,” it was like the more that she was like, “Yeah, and you took it, you hid it, you put it somewhere.” Like, it just—the more empathy I gave, it seemed like the more that she was using it as almost, like, fuel to be upset. Does that make sense? Right.Sarah: Yeah. No, that's pretty common. And the thing is, you have to remember that blame is trying to offload difficult feelings. It's like, “I don't wanna feel this way, so I'm gonna blame you.” And then—you know, it's anger—have you ever seen the image of the anger iceberg?Joanna: Yes.Sarah: Yeah. So the anger iceberg is, like, the anger is the only thing you see coming out of the water. But underneath the iceberg are all of the more tender feelings, right? And anger is actually a secondary emotion. So you don't start out by feeling angry. You feel—like, like for her, she maybe was feeling frustrated and disappointed that she couldn't find her bear. And those are the first feelings. But those more tender feelings are harder to feel, and so anger is often protective. And the tender feelings also set off that—you know, that overwhelm of our emotions registers as a threat to the nervous system, which sets off that fight, flight, or freeze. So there's all those things going on, right? Like, the blame of, like, trying to offload the feelings; the anger of feeling like it's easier to go on the offensive than to feel those tender feelings; and then the nervous system getting set off by that overwhelm that registers as a threat, right? It sets off the fight, flight, or freeze. And they're—they're kind of all different ways of saying the same thing. And yes, empathy often will help a child—that they get more in touch with those feelings. And I'm not saying that you don't wanna empathize, um, but just recognize that, you know, the feelings are happening, and when you empathize, they—you know, you're welcoming the feelings, which sometimes can have that fight, flight, or freeze effect.Joanna: And would you recommend that I continue to really lean into empathy more and just stay with all of that emotion until it passes?Sarah: So—totally depends. The other thing I was gonna say is it's possible—like the situation you just gave me—it's possible—like, how—were you actually feeling empathetic, or were you trying to just get out the door?Joanna: I think I was, but at a certain point I was like, “I think, you know, we have two options from here. Like, we can continue to be upset about the bear and it—it will make us late for the party, or at a certain point we can move on and make a new plan,” and, like, “get our—make our way over there.” So, um, is that effective? Yeah, I—I mean, she eventually was able to change gears. But, I mean, it doesn't feel like real life to just be able to, like, sit in your negative emotions all the time. And I think, like, maybe I struggle with doing that for, like, a long enough period of time to actually let her—let them out.Sarah: Well, I don't know—yeah. So, I mean, there's a difference between welcoming feelings and wallowing in emo—in emotion, I think.Joanna: Yeah. And she definitely is a wallower, and she almost has really, like, attached so much sadness and frustration and anger to this bear. Like, now she'll just, like, think about the bear and be like, “Oh, I still can't find that bear.” Like, she was just, like, you know, exploding about it again this past weekend. So it almost feels like she's just latching onto it to, like, feel bad there.Sarah: I mean, some kids—she's probably not choosing to latch onto it to feel bad, but she probably just has. So, so what I was gonna say is sometimes when kids seem to be wallowing, it's just that there's so much there that they haven't been able to get out on a regular basis. So I think it is just like a full backpack, and there's just a lot there. And it's not—it's probably not just about the bear. It's probably just like she's—it's, you know, processing other older things too. And you don't have to know what's in the backpack or try and figure it out. But you might find that if you had more opportunities for her to process feelings, then she might not get so stuck when they do start to come out.That's one thing that I would think of. Like—and more laughter should help with that. Like, more laughter and roughhousing to help her sort of process stuff. And also sometimes—so the bear thing reminds me of—some kids will just feel bad, you know, like feel bad sometimes from, like, a full backpack, or maybe they don't even know what it is, they can't connect. Or maybe they're just tired and low-resourced and their brain is kind of like, “Why do I feel bad? Why do I feel bad?” And she's like, “Oh, the bear.” You know, she remembers, like, the bear. Like, I've had clients tell me, my kid will say, like, “I miss Grandpa,” who they never met, who died before they were born—like, just kind of casting around for, like, “Why could I be feeling this way right now? Oh, I know—it's 'cause I can't find that bear.”Or maybe the bear is so important to her that it really is—that she thinks about it and it just makes her feel bad. But I think what you wanna remember when it seems like she's wallowing is that, you know, getting—like, having empathy. And I actually also did a podcast about this too, with another coaching call, where I talked about, you know, cultivating a certain amount of nonchalance after you feel like you've been pretty empathetic and welcomed the feelings. Because I think if we're too empathetic sometimes—and I do wanna be very careful with this because I don't want anyone to take this as, like, “Don't be empathetic”—but, you know, there is a time where you just say, like, “You know what? I hear how upset you are about this, and I get it. And I would be really bummed if I couldn't find the bear I wanted also. And we have to decide, like, are we gonna stay here and just keep feeling sad about the bear, or should we figure out another plan?” Like what you said, right.Joanna: Yeah, I have heard you say that before, and that's been so helpful for her. Mm-hmm. It seems like if I'm not so reactive to her emotions, she realizes that they're not an emergency either.Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean—and that's a good point too, because I didn't even ask you, like, how's your regulation when this is happening? Like, are you getting, like, annoyed, frustrated, upset for her, kind of drawn in? Are you able to, like, kind of center yourself and stay calm?Joanna: It varies. I would say I currently am the most resourced that I've ever been—good with, like, the emotional regulation piece. And then that—I see, like, sometimes she is able to come out of it more quickly, or it just depends on, you know, what her tolerance is at that—at that time. So—Sarah: Joanna, it might be that, you know, you're coming out of—almost like you're coming out of a fog of, you know—you said all the things: like the NICU experience, and then the—and then COVID, and then your new baby, and—and that it might be that you're really, finally for the first time, kind of getting to tend—you know, look at yourself, your own regulation, and be more present and connected with your daughter. And all these things are gonna start having a little bit of, um, of a snowball effect. And it may be that you've just had this, like, seven-year period of difficulty, you know?Joanna: Oh, that's horrifying.Sarah: Well, but the good news is it sounds like things are shifting.Joanna: Yeah. It really does feel like that. Yeah. You're—I feel like even if I talked to you a few months ago, I would've been like, “Oh, help me.”Sarah: Well—and that you're recognizing what you brought—what you bring to the table, and that, you know, things have been fraught with your daughter, and that you're sort of starting to come out. And—and honestly, also doing that—doing that bedtime—after-school bedtime by yourself five days a week, that's gonna be tough too. Uh, so you've got situ—just that current situation doesn't sound like it'll change, but you're changing what you're bringing to it.Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I can maybe just ask you, like, one more little thing?Sarah: Sure.Joanna: Maybe this is—it all comes back to, like, wanting a lot of connection, but this is also what kind of drains my battery. She constantly wants to, like, talk to me or ask me questions from, like, the time that she wakes up to the time that she goes to bed. And it will be—like, currently it's, like, “Would you rather.” It's like, “Would you rather eat all the food in the world or never eat again?” Uh-huh. In the past it's been, like, “Guess what's in my mouth?” But then she always really tries to make it—make me wrong in the circumstance, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if that's just her, like, looking for power or, like, the upper hand, or like—I don't know. I'm not sure what it is.Sarah: Well, I mean, if you feel—if you have a sense that she's looking for power, I would bring that into the roughhousing—where you are the one who's weak and bumbling and idiotic, and, you know, you're so slow, and she beats you every time at a race. So I would really try to bring some of that—some of that stuff into your roughhousing where she gets to be—Do you know the kind of stuff I'm talking about? Like, “I bet you can't—um, you know, I bet you can't beat me at arm wrestling,” and then, like, you know, you flop your arm over in a silly way, and like, “How are you so strong? Like, I'm gonna beat you next time.” And it's obviously playful, because probably you are stronger than she is at this point, but, you know—feats of strength or speed, or, you know, figuring things out, and you act like you really don't know anything. And—but in, of course, in a joking way, so she knows that you're not—you know, you're pretending to be all these things, but she still gets to gloat and, like, “Ha, you know, I'm the strongest, I'm the best.” So really giving her that in roughhousing.And then also, like, real power. Like, I don't know if she gets to make—what kinds of decisions she gets to make, or, you know, how much—how flexible you are on limits. Because sometimes, as parents, we do set unnecessary limits, which can make our kids, you know—make them look for power in other ways. So really looking at what limits you're setting and if they're necessary limits, and—and how you're setting them. Uh, and also I think it sounds like it's connection-seeking—like, she just wants you. You know, she wants to know that you're there and paying attention to her. And so everything else that you're doing—that we're talking about—that you're gonna try to do more—more time with her and get more one-on-one time with her, hopefully that will help too.And I think it is okay to say, like, after you've done, like, 25 “would you rathers,” I just say—like, I used to say to my kids, “You know what? My brain is just feeling really stimulated from so many words. Like, can we have some quiet for a few minutes?” And not—and being very careful to not phrase it like, “You're talking too much,” or “I don't wanna listen to—” and I'm exaggerating for effect—but just framing it as, like, your brain and a regulation thing—like, “My brain,” and it is words. Yeah. And so, like, “Do you—should we put some music on?” You know, “Can we—like, think of—can you connect in a way that—let's listen to a story.” Okay. Something like that where you still, like, keep up connection with her, but—and it might not work. She—she might not be able to stop talking, but you can try it at least.Joanna: No, that's a—that's a really good suggestion. Almost like replacing it with some other kind of stimulation if she's looking for that in that moment.Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think—I think it's just—I think it's fair. Like, it's totally—I, at the end of the day, with people, like, talking at me all day, I sometimes am like—you know, when my kids were younger, I'd be like, “Okay, you know, I—I just need a little—my brain needs a little bit of a break. It's feeling overstimulated.” So I think just using that language with her.Joanna: Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. Well—Sarah: Yeah, I think you're—you know, I think that I've—that we've connected at a point where you're, like, at—you're, like, at the—sort of the top of a mountain, you know? And you've been, like, having all this struggle and uphill battles. And I think you've put—before even we talk—you've put a lot of pieces [together] of what—you know, why some of the challenges were. And they do seem to be connection—you know, connection-based, just in terms of, um, you know, her wanting more and you not being as resourced. And so hopefully working on connection is gonna help with that too.Joanna: Yeah. I'm gonna keep that at top of mind.Sarah: And your self-regulation too. You said you're—you know, you've been having—you're more resourced now than you ever have been, so you're able to work on really staying, like, calm and compassionate in those times when she's dysregulated. Going back to what I said in the beginning, which is that, you know, the steps for the meltdowns really start with our own regulation.Joanna: And I find it's a snowball effect too, because once you start seeing positive changes, it allows you to, like, rest in knowing that things will not always be so hard.Sarah: Yeah. So it—Joanna: It gives you motivation to keep going, I think.Sarah: Totally. And, you know, with complex kids—which it sounds like your daughter is one of those more complex kids—um, brain maturity makes such a huge difference. Um, like, every month and every year as she's starting to get older. And, you know, you mentioned ADHD—that you—that you suspect that she might be ADHD. ADHD kids are often around three years behind, um, in terms of what you might expect for them in terms of, like, their brain development. And not—and not across the board. But in terms of, like, their regulation, in terms of what they can do for themselves, um, like in—you know, and obviously every kid is different. But it really helps to think about, um, your ADHD kids as sort of, uh, developmentally younger than they are. My—my girlfriend who has—her son and my daughter are the same age, so they're both just starting college or university this year. And, um, she was—I—she lives in California, and I was talking to her, and her son has ADHD, and she was talking about how much support he's still needing in first-year college and how she was feeling a little bit like, “Oh, I feel like I shouldn't be supporting him this much when he's 18.” And—and she said, “Actually, I just re—you know, I always remind myself of what you told me a long time ago: to think of him as three years younger than he is in some ways,” and that that's made her feel a little bit better about the scaffolding that she's having to give him.Joanna: Yeah, I've never heard that before. That's good. She's also gonna be starting to work with an OT in a couple of weeks, so we'll see if that has any effect as well.Sarah: Cool.Joanna: Cool.Sarah: Alright, well, I look forward to catching up with you in around maybe three weeks or a month and seeing how things went, and, um, good luck, and I hope this was helpful and gave you some things to work on.Joanna: Okay. Thank you so much.Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome back to the podcast.Joanna: Hi Sarah.Sarah: So—how has—it's been about—I think it's been about four weeks since we talked the first time. How have things been?Joanna: Yeah, things I think have been going a little better. Like, every day is a little bit different. We definitely have, like, a lot of ups and downs still, but I think overall we're just on a better trajectory now. Um, it's actually—I was wondering if things—if, like, the behavior has actually been better, or if it's more just, like, my frame of mind.Sarah: That is the classic question because—it's so funny, I'm—I'm laughing because so much of the time when I'm coaching parents, after a couple of sessions they'll say, “This isn't even about my kids. This is all about me.” Right.Joanna: Yeah, it really, really is and just continues to be about, like, my own—not just frame of mind, but, like, my own self-regulation. That's always the biggest thing.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Um, I think the biggest challenge is, like—ever since, like, about six months ago, I just have had really bad PMS. So I find, like, the week before—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: I just feel so irritated by everything.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: So I feel like that's a really—just so much more of a challenging time because then things that normally don't bother me are bothering me a lot more.Sarah: Right.Joanna: And then it's harder to keep that connection strong.Sarah: Totally. Yeah. And you also—as we mentioned last time—you have come off of a whole bunch of different events of, you know—we talked your daughter's premature birth, and then COVID, and then the new baby. And the new baby—you know, you're not sleeping that much, and, um, all of those things would make it also have your resources be low. Like, not only the PMS, but, like, anything that puts a tax on us—on our resources—is gonna make us more irritable.Joanna: Totally. And—but I'm really trying to lean into having a lot more compassion for myself, because I know that when I do that, I can have a lot more compassion for her and, mm-hmm, whatever's going on that she's bringing to the table too. So that's—that's, I think, probably the biggest thing. But I think that our relationship is just starting to have a lot more resilience—like, when things do start to go sideways, either she or I—we're able to kind of get back on track a lot more quickly than before, and it doesn't become as, like, entrenched.Sarah: That's awesome. And we—we talked last time about trying to get some more time with her so that the only time that she has with you isn't just at bedtime when you're trying to get her to go to bed. Have you been able to do that, and has it—do you think that's been helping?Joanna: Yeah. It depends. Like, we had a really busy weekend this past weekend, so not as much. And then I find that sometimes, like, a barrier to that is, like, by the time the weekend finally comes, I'm so depleted and really just, like, needing time for myself. As much as I'm like, “Okay, I need to spend one-on-one time with her,” I'm like, “I don't want to—I just, like, be by myself for a little while.” So it's—Sarah: I hear that.Joanna: It's always that—like, yeah, it's always that balancing act. And then, like, feeling guilty of, like, “Okay, no, I know I should want to hang out with her,” and I kind of just don't really.Sarah: Mm-hmm. No, you're—you're totally not alone. And it's funny that you just—you mentioned self-compassion and then you said, “I feel guilty 'cause I—I don't wanna hang out with her,” but we all—the theme so far in this five minutes is that, um, you know, what you're bringing to the—what you're bringing to the relationship has been improving. Like you said, your mindset has shifted, and that's helping things with her. So even if you're not getting time independently with her—and hopefully you can work towards that after you fill your own cup—but you're still helping things with her by getting time to yourself.Joanna: True. Yeah, because then I'm coming back just a much better, happier—yes—parent and person.Sarah: Totally.Joanna: Oh, thank you. That's helpful.Sarah: Yeah, and the—and I think you've—you know, you've touched—just in these few minutes—you've touched on two big things that I always say: if you can't really take these two things to heart, it'll be really hard to be a successful peaceful parent. And one is what you said—the mindset shift, you know, of how you see her behavior with, you know, that children are doing the best they can. You know, they're not giving us a hard time; they're having a hard time. And the other one is self-compassion. So making strides in both of those areas will really help you be that parent that you wanna be.Joanna: Yeah. And even though we're maybe not getting huge chunks of time individually, I am really trying to make the most of, like, those little moments—Sarah: Good.Joanna: —of connection. Yeah. So even, like—what we've started doing is, because my husband's on night shift, he is waking up with her in the morning because she has a really hard time in the morning. So now he's sort of with her, getting her ready in the morning. And then I am—like, we used to all walk to the bus together because my son likes to go too. But now my husband's hanging back with my son, so now I'm just walking her to the bus. And even though it's five minutes, it's like we're holding hands. She's able to tell me—Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: —you know, talking about whatever.Sarah: That's still—that—that totally counts. That's—and that also, um, that also takes care of something we talked about last time too, which is your husband and your son having more time together, um, so that the nights that—when your husband is home—maybe he can put your son to bed and start trying to shift that dynamic. So yeah. That's amazing that you're doing—that. Yeah, I think that's a great shift—walking to her—to the bus by herself.Joanna: And I think it—it actually makes a huge difference. You know, before it was like she would just kind of get on the bus and not really look back, and now she's, like, giving me a hug and a kiss and waving—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —waving in the window. So, like, I can see that it's having a positive effect right away.Sarah: You could even leave five minutes earlier than you have to and have—turn that five minutes into ten minutes.Joanna: I would love to do that. It's always just—like, it's really hard to get to the bus on time as it is. We will work toward that though.Sarah: I hear that. Well, if you did try to leave five minutes earlier then it might be more relaxed, even if you didn't even have any extra time, but you were just, like—leave, you know, change your whole morning back five minutes and try to get out five minutes early.Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. True. So I think that we had talked a lot about roughhousing last time too—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —and I do find that that's—that's really—it works well for her, but I run into this really specific problem where when, uh, like, we start roughhousing, and then she's enjoying it, but then my son wants to get in the mix—Sarah: Mm-hmm.Joanna: —and then right away she's like, “No, like, get outta here.” So then she'll start kind of, like, pushing him or, like, throwing kicks or something. So—and then he gets upset because he's like, “Mom! Mom!” So then I end up sort of, like, pinned underneath both of them—Sarah: Right.Joanna: —they're mad at each other, hitting each other—Sarah: Oh no.Joanna: —they both want me.Sarah: Well, maybe—maybe don't do it then if that's how it ends up. But I do have a couple of shifts that might help before you give up on it when you're alone with them. One is, do you ever try to do those “two against you”? Like, start it out right from the get-go—“You two against Mommy. See if you can—see if you can—” Um, it's funny you just said you end up pinned down because that's what I often say. Like, “See if you can stop Mommy from getting up,” or “See if you can catch me,” or, you know, trying to align the two of them against you. That might help.Joanna: Yeah, I love that idea. Never thought about that. Yeah, I think she would love that.Sarah: Yeah. So, “Okay, you two are a team, and you have to try to stop me from jumping on the bed,” or “You know, you—you have to stop me from getting to the bed,” or, you know, something like that.Joanna: Okay, I'm gonna try that. I think that they'll love it.Sarah: Yeah. Another idea is, um, what I call “mental roughhousing,” where you're not doing, like, physical stuff, but you're being silly and, like, um—I think I mentioned her last time to you, but A Playful Heart Parenting—Mia—W—Walinski. She has a lot of great ideas on her Instagram—we'll link to that in the show notes—of, like, different, um, like, word things that you can do. When I say mental roughhousing, it's like getting everyone laughing without being physical.Joanna: Mm-hmm.Sarah: Uh, which—you know, the goal of roughhousing is to get everyone laughing, and sometimes being physical might not work. But you can—like, I'll give you an idea. This isn't from Mia, but this is something that I used to do with my kids. Like, you know, one of you—you're like—you say to JR, “Oh—where did your sister go?” And she's sitting right there. “She was just here a minute ago. Where did Jay go? I don't see her. What happened to her? She disappeared.” And meanwhile she's like, “I'm right here! I'm right here!” You know—something like that that's more of, like, a—more of a mental roughhousing.My kids and I used to play this game that actually my brother-in-law invented called Slam, where, like, you both say a word at the same time. Um, so, like—I'm just looking around my—like, you know, “curtain” and, you know, “lemonade.” Uh, and then it's like—you both say it—both—you both say your word at the same time. And that actually wasn't a very funny one—kids come up with much funnier ones than I do—but it's like, “Is that, like, a lemonade that is made out of curtains, or is it a—what—” It's such a dumb example now that I think of it, but—but—or is it, like, a curtain that hides the lemonade? And so you just try and—like, you think of silly things that the two words together—the two words “slam” together—mean.Joanna: Okay, great. That's—that's on my next book—that's on my next thing to read. You—man—you keep mentioning—what is it? Playful—Playful Heart Parenting? She has an—I—Sarah: There was a book—there was a book too. And—Joanna: Oh—Sarah: Playful Parenting—the Larry Cohen book.Joanna: The Larry Cohen book, yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: That's a great book. Yeah, and he was on my podcast too, so you could listen to that. We'll also link to—Mia was on my podcast, and Larry was—so we'll link to both of those in the show notes as well.Joanna: Okay, great. I may have listened to one of those, but—yeah. Okay. Yeah.Sarah: And Playful Parenting is really great for also talking—and, like, Mia is just straight up, like, how to be more playful in life and to, you know, make more joy in your family kind of thing. And Larry talks about how to be more playful to also support your child through transitions and through big emotions and different things—like, it's a—it's a little bit more, um, like, all-around parenting—Playful Parenting.Joanna: Okay.Sarah: But it is different.Joanna: Yeah. I used to have a really hard time getting the kids upstairs to start the bedtime routine. And now it's like—I'll be like, “Okay, I'm gonna hide first,” and, like, I go upstairs and hide and we start—Sarah: Oh, I love that.Joanna: —we play hide-and-seek, and—Sarah: Oh yeah, it was a stroke of genius one day, and it's been working so well just to get everyone, like, off the main floor and—Joanna: —upstairs.Sarah: I'm gonna totally steal that idea. That's such a good idea. Yeah, because you could also send them up—“Okay, go hide upstairs and I'll come and find you.” And then you could do a round of you hiding. And I love that. That's a great idea. Yeah.Joanna: And I especially love hide-and-seek for sometimes when I need, like, 30 seconds by myself in a dark closet—Sarah: —to, like, take a breath.Joanna: That's great.Sarah: I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's—that's so great.As I mentioned before, I forgot to ask Joanna for an update about a few things. So here's the update about breastfeeding her son in the night.Sarah: Okay.Joanna: Hi, Sarah. So, in terms of the night-weaning, um, I haven't gone ahead and done anything about that yet just because he does have his last molars coming in and has been sick. So I want to wait until he's well and pain-free to kind of give us our best chance at getting that off on the right foot. But I have really realized that because he's my last baby, that this is really the last little home stretch of being woken up by a baby at night—specifically to nurse. So that's helped me kind of reduce my feelings of resentment toward it.Sarah: I love that Joanna zoomed out and looked at the big picture and the fact that this is her last baby, and used that to sort of just change her mindset a little bit and make it a little bit easier to continue on with something when she knew it wasn't the right time to stop. And now here is her update about bedtime with her daughter. And for this, I love that she got preventive—you'll see what I mean—and also playful. Those are two really great things to look at when you're having any struggles with your kids: like, how can I prevent this from happening? And also, how can I be playful when it is happening and shift the mood?Joanna: And in terms of bedtime with my daughter, we've made a couple of schedule changes to set us off on a better foot once I get back together with her after putting my son to bed. So I think we used to have a lot of conflict because it was like she was still asking for another snack and then hadn't brushed her teeth, and then it was just kind of getting to be too late and I was getting short on patience. So now we have, like, a set snack time where everybody has a snack, and I let them know, like, “This is the last time that we're eating today,” and then we're going upstairs—using hide-and-seek, like I mentioned—and then just really continuing to be playful in all doing our bedtime tasks together.So, for example, I'm saying, like, “Okay, I'm gonna go into my room and put my pajamas on. Can you guys go get your PJs on—and then don't show me, but I have to guess what pajamas you have on?” So she really loves that because, like I mentioned, she loves to get me to guess things. But also she's then helping her brother get ready for bed, and he's far more cooperative with her than with me in terms of getting his pajamas on. So it all works really well.Yeah, and then just kind of continuing to be silly and playful is really helping with brushing teeth—it's like, “Who can make the silliest faces in the mirror?” and stuff. So, really kind of moving through all those tasks together so that by the time I'm out of the room and ready to put her to bed, everything's done, and we can just get into playing cards and then snuggling and chatting and—and leaving from there after maybe a five- or ten-minute snuggle. So there's been way fewer meltdowns at the end of the night because we are able to just not get in this place where we're getting into power struggles in the first place. It's just really all about, like, the love and connection at the end of the day.Sarah: The final thing I wanted to check in with you about is—you were asking about the meltdowns. You know, when Jay gets really upset and, you know, how to—um—how to manage those. Have you had any chances to practice what we talked about with that?Joanna: Yeah, she actually had a really, really big, long, extended meltdown yesterday, and, um, I just continue to not really feel like I'm ever supporting her in the way that she needs supporting. Like, I don't—I always end up feeling like I'm not—I'm not helping. I don't know. It's just a really, really hard situation.Sarah: I was just talking to a client yesterday who—who actually wanted to know about supporting her child through meltdowns, and I said, “Well, what would you want someone to do for you?” You know—just kind of be there. Be quiet. You know, offer a—you know, rub the—rub your back—rub her back. I mean, I don't know exactly what your child wants, but I think that's a good place to start if you feel like you're not being successful—like, “Well, what would I want if this was happening to me?”Joanna: And I think that really—that's enough, right? It's enough—Sarah: Oh, totally.Joanna: —to be there. And it always—maybe I'm just feeling like it's not enough because we don't really even get, like, a good resolution, or, like, even—eventually it just kind of subsides, right?Sarah: If you were having a meltdown, that's what would happen. Nobody can come in there and fix it for you.Joanna: Um, exactly.Sarah: Nobody can come in and say the magic words that's gonna make you not feel upset anymore. So it's really just about that—being there for somebody. And we're—it's not that the resolution is “I fixed their problems.”Joanna: Yeah.Sarah: The resolution is “I was there with them for the journey.”Joanna: Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying, where it's like, “Oh, this work really is just about me.”Sarah: Yeah, totally.Joanna: And learning how to show up.Sarah: And not feeling anxious when your child is upset and you're like, “I don't know what to do,” and just think, “Okay, I just have to be

Colorado voters said yes to propositions LL and MM in Tuesday's election, to pay for school meals for all; cafeteria workers and local farmers will benefit too. We talk through what's next with Anya Rose from Hunger Free Colorado. Plus, Denver voters keep a ban on flavored tobacco in place and say yes to a $950 million bond package to create a "vibrant" Denver. Also, will a shuttered private prison in Walsenburg reopen as an ICE facility? Later, Colorado's film industry tries to get a foothold at the same time a Colorado town celebrates filmmakers. 

Office autopsy time! Kiera and Dana review a "practice" that went from broke to success in a handful of months, and how tracking their numbers saved them. Every single office will go through a cash flow crunch at least once, so it's important to understand the right flotation devices to utilize. This could mean pulling overhead apart, identifying production and collections percentages, analyzing fixed costs, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today is a special day. I have the one and only Dana Morsell on the podcast today. And prior to this, asked her, she's gone through a few nicknames and Dana, believe it or not, I was actually thinking about this last night. No joke. I was thinking like, there's Spiffy Tiffy and there's no BS Britt. And I was like, Dana, you've been with me for a long time. Like, why have I not gotten like a good nickname for you? And like, Britty Gritty. And I was like, okay, I just like throw wise on the end of these names like Tiffy, that is their TT DM does not sound quite right. Like that's like DMing on Instagram. And so I thought like, it's just Dainey. And now you told me I to do it with a Southern draw. So it's going to be like Dainey on the far. So well. Dana (00:44) Yep, it has to have it. I feel like it reminds me so much of my dad and like it just has to have that. Kiera Dent (00:51) Well, it's my dad. grew up on a dairy farm for all the listeners. Don't worry. We have like a really good podcast today. It's an office autopsy that Dana has taken these three incredible practices, like one owner, like they went from just stress and chaos and burnout to complete an absolute just like freedom, which and Dana has done it so quickly. So we're going to get there. I'm just going to tell you about this dairy farm real fast. ⁓ my dad grew up on a dairy farm and he used to say his mom would always like, Ricky, like that's how he would call him. imagine myself on this like beautiful estate and like sweeping my porch and having this like big white porch out there. And I'm like, Dainey! So that's how I envisioned this so, you know, that's that's the vision over here So whether you like it or not, otherwise we can go back to donuts with Dana. What do you prefer? Dana (01:38) ⁓ I actually love you standing on your white porch shouting that, so we'll take it. Kiera Dent (01:41) I think it just fits and if you haven't heard other podcasts, if you haven't been with us as long, Dana has the most random stories like running her bicycle into a deer. She has so many animals. She's got kids like Dana will always come to the table with the most random stories and she whoops everybody on trivia. We play games in our company and it's always like team trivia. Dana will whoop them. So, you know, here we go Dana. Welcome to the podcast. How are you over there Dana? Special Dana? Dana (02:09) doing pretty good. Yeah, doing pretty good. think all of my wild stories and my trivia comes from like, I don't know, I just have this like weird memory thing where I can like memorize things very quickly. Even like applying for a car loan, they're always shocked that I know all of my account numbers, all of my balances down to the penny, like just off the top of my head. And so I think that that's kind of where some of that comes from. Kiera Dent (02:28) No. I didn't even know that about you. So that's also a really interesting thing to note. All right, so Dana will remember, mean, is this okay? Is it something where you can remember numbers like past past? Or is it like your banking out is just current right now, but you couldn't remember like a month ago. Dana (02:47) No, so it is past-past, but it's because I don't know, my brain does this weird, like I make a riddle out of everything and I'm constantly like, okay, well, if I run and remember something, like if it's, you know, two, three, six, I'm like, well, two times three is six. And like, I just, I don't know, create like weird connections, especially with numbers in my brain and like riddle it so that I remember it. Kiera Dent (03:07) Fascinating. Fascinating. Okay. Well, there's another random fact about Dana. So Dana is one of my absolute fave humans in the entire world. Dana, truly, I say that on the podcast and I genuinely mean it. And we have talked about it on show, off show. Dana is just a super incredible human and offices who get to work with her are so lucky. So we thought it'd be fun. Office autopsy time. If you're new to the podcast, this is where we kind of go behind the scenes. ⁓ We mash up a few practices. just so you know, you'll never really fully know exactly who it is just to keep a client patient confidentiality. But we want to highlight of things that we do in real life, because I think consulting can be kind of hard. Like what do you actually do and what are the results you actually get? And so Dana just had some really solid wins with some practices. And I thought, Dana, let's get on the podcast and do our office autopsy, where we lift up the hood and we look behind the scenes. And what were some of the things you as a consultant did for this practice? What are some of the wins and gains that they've had? ⁓ that I think will just be fun. So Dana, let's take it away. ⁓ kind of like, where did this practice start? What have we implemented and where are they now? Maybe even tell them like where they started, where they got to. And then we'll talk about the how, because that's really fun. I don't like to wait for the like end result. I want to know quickly like, okay, they were like dying, drowning, broke, and then they got like hundreds of dollars and they got it in like a month. How did they do it? So take us away. Where were they? Where did they get to? And then let's go into the house. Dana (04:30) Yeah, and I think that this practice is just a really cool example of like the importance of knowing your numbers, especially when you have multiple practices and knowing what each practice is bringing to the table and having really clear separated numbers for those things. And so it was just really fun and I think a cool way to highlight how when you know those things, then you can fix systems that are broken or aren't working to see massive progress. So when this office came, they were at a negative profit. ⁓ each month and Kiera Dent (05:03) We're talking like they're losing money, losing sleep, stressed out of their minds. Dana (05:04) Yeah, yes. So stressed, they're pulling personal, you know, they're pulling boatloads of personal cash every month to cover expenses to keep these practices open. ⁓ You know, doctor is going from office to office. And it's truly, truly really stressful time and they don't really know where the leaks are coming from. And they can't put their finger on what's going on that's causing it. And yeah, stressed out to the max and just really, really wanting help and wanting to kind of pinpoint and give them a clear picture of why they are so stressed and why these practices that feel as if they're booming or are starting to get busy aren't profitable at that point. Kiera Dent (05:35) This And I think this is so common for so many practices, which is why we were talking morning huddle. We share all of our client wins every single day. You guys, we have a morning huddle. It's very fun. We talk about team wins, client wins. And when Dana talked about this, I'm like, Dana, we're podcasting. Like, can you get on the podcast with me? I think this is such a big win because it, yes, it's, it's quote unquote one practice that we've kind of mashed a few of them, but this is like every single office. And so many of them don't realize what's going on with my profit numbers. They feel like it's booming. but they have no money left over and then they're stressed to the max and they're countless hours. And this isn't just a brand new practice. Like this is a business owner who'd been in business for a long time. Like it's almost that I should with air quotes know what I'm doing, but I just don't know where it is. And Dana, I'm so proud of you for saying like they need to know their numbers. We harp on this like crazy because when you actually can dig in, which I'm excited for you to kind of do like the grand reveal and then the how, but I mean, how many practices, Dana, this is, I hope people realize one, practices all go through this. So this is not just a siloed to one or two practices. This is every office at some point is going to go through cashflow crunches, stressed out, working all hours and not being able to pinpoint. And just because you're profitable today does not mean you're forever going to be profitable. It is something you have to constantly work at, constantly be vigilant on. And it's not just like, set it, forget it, we're on our way. And so I think for that, but also I think so many people because they don't know what to do. they spin their wills that creates this cycle of death in my opinion. Like you truly are spinning, you're burning the candle at all ends. I remember when I met, cause I'm, I talked to this office when they were joining our company and I'm like, my gosh, like I can't want this more than they want it. Like they have to make the decision to join us, but my gosh, I see your problem. see your pain and we have got to fix that like an ASAP and get CPR because the owner was just running frantic and it was impacting family life and financials. And to me, you worked so hard that you should not be living that life this far into business ownership, whatever stage you're in. So I'm ready for the grand reveal. I hope people just realize this is not siloed and it's not something that's permanent. And it's also once you become profitable, that's also not permanent too. No season is permanent, but we want profitability to be more permanent because you're vigilant on it. Dana (08:07) Yeah, yeah. And you know, after looking at things, developing systems really honing in on their numbers and kind of what they were telling us, we were able to get them to be on track to hit 16 % profit in August. So going from negative profit to actually having a decent amount of profit sitting there, and they're producing in one less office now too. So. Kiera Dent (08:30) Okay. So breaking this down, how many months are we talking? Is this like five months, 10 months, 12 months? How long of a timeline did we go for? Five months. Okay. Again, why I wanted Dana to come on because consulting is not an overnight diet pill. It's not something that we can just inject and say, here you go. Like you're on your way. It is something. And also I want you to realize that any person listening, getting to negative profit also did not usually happen overnight. Now buying a practice, you might be a little bit negative. So there is a space where that can be negative. but this was someone who was running multiple offices and Dana kudos in five months, you got them from negative cash. We're talking like broke. There's no money to a 16 % profit. So there is, and we're talking, we're in the multimillions. So you can just do some math that even on 1,000,000 10 % profit is a hundred grand. Okay. You add 16 % that's 160,000 of profit. Now you can do the math for your own practice of a 16 % profit. and that was done in five months. So can you just imagine this practice going from like, my gosh, I'm broke to having this much slush on the other hand, and you got one less practice. There was multiple practices. You got rid of a practice, which there's strategy behind. Do we keep it not? What do we do there? And this doctor I guarantee you is having way more time, less stress as well. So the numbers, the money is always what people want to hear. Every time I talk to people on like... sales calls, wondering about working with us. Like what's your ROI, Kiera? How are we going to like make sure we pay for this? And I'm like, well, the numbers will be there. But what I actually care more about is the life you're living. Yes, I'm going to always cover numbers. Like that's the result. People need to have that. But I think the piece that people don't realize and why you're usually reaching out is you're looking for life of no stress. You're looking for your problems to actually get resolved. And Dana, that gift in five months, like, and that's fast. That's a fast turn. Not all practices are this quick. so I'm really curious, what did you guys do? How did you get that turn? I'm really proud of you. That's why I wanted you on the podcast to highlight dynamite Dana. mean, this one feels a little bit more like Dainey on the white porch. get, but dynamite Dana, being able to get those results in five months. That's impressive. Like that is dynamite to be able to do. So walk us through what were some of the pieces of how did we do this? What did we do? Five months is not, it might feel long to people, but when in the grand scheme of things, that's not even half a year to go from net negative. to positive 16%. Dana (10:48) Yeah. And I think sometimes too, it just helps to translate. Like what that looks like is we really cut expenses, right? Some of the expenses and they on average are collecting about 35,000 more per month too. Kiera Dent (11:01) Nice. Dana (11:02) ⁓ So it really came down to first step was getting them to understand which of the offices were profitable if any of them and you know what each individual office looked like. So we basically did an office autopsy. We pulled apart overhead. We pulled apart fixed costs for every office. We pulled apart their percentages of production and collections over the last year and really created a very clear picture of how each practice was doing as well as then moving forward what numbers do we need to hit in each practice to hit various profit points. Kiera Dent (11:40) Awesome. So breaking this down, I think when people have multi-practices, this is a huge problem that offices do is they bundle it all together and they have no idea where the true cashflow week is. And what I found is in multi-practice ownership, usually it's one practice that is the bleeding child and all the rest of them are doing well, but you don't know that. And so I did this, I had multiple businesses, I had all lumped into one and I didn't know, you have no idea where to fix things, where to move levers. what needs to happen. And so what we do is we do this like buckshot approach where we try to do everything for all of them, but don't actually know when we can pinpoint. So we're working hard or not smarter on that. So I love that you broke it apart. So basically you got to have separate tax IDs for each practice. I know that seems annoying. It's also annoying to break it down for your insurance companies, but choose your heart. Would you rather know where you are profitable or where you're not? The answer is hard pass. Yes. Like we absolutely want that. And so from there, then you looked at how much it's costing each practice. And this is so fascinating to me and people are like, but Kiera, Dana, like people travel with me to all the offices and I'm like, fantastic. You have to actually put that salary, that amount for that practice. So we know, and what's wild is that team member technically is working for three different companies. Technically they are, when you break it down this way. So technically they could work 40 hours at each location. That's technically okay. Talk with your, like, we are not CPAs. We're not financial advisors, but you have to look at this. They're separate tax IDs. used to do this at multi practices. So pending upon how it structured. not to say to work your employees 120 hours a week. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying though is if you've got a regional, you've got dental assistants that are going with you, they need to be clocking in at one location, clocking out, clocking in the next location, clocking out. And if you're paying them like gas or whatever in between, they need to actually be allocated to each practice individually so you can see actual costs per practice per business. This is how you run multi-businesses. You like think about it. If I have a dental practice and I have a coaching business and I have my real estate, they're like, all the money technically comes to you as a person, but you have to have those separated to see which business is doing well. And when you can look at all three of your practices as separate businesses under one roof of your own, this then helps you. Like you said, Dana, you laser focus and you pinpointed. So I'm very curious when you did this and you broke it apart, what did you find on expenses? Like how, like was one like just so expensive? I imagine it probably was just like cashflow negative. Like it was just gobbling all the money and the other ones were probably doing fine. Dana (14:05) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's it. Pretty much exactly what we found ⁓ and in breaking down all of those things then secondary to that just like you were saying with with team members We had team members doing various roles depending on which practice they were in and so there was just a lot to really clean up clarify and streamline per practice ⁓ outside of even just expenses and knowing financially where the practice stood. So that was our second journey kind of after we figured out the finances and you know once they had a reality of each practice then it was really easy I think to hone in on what systems we had to work on and make some tough decisions too. Kiera Dent (14:48) And when you said that, I was just thinking it also creates clarity for team members too. I know you've also been helping like with the regional manager and like what system should be in place. So mind you, yes, we're working on profit, but then we're also putting all these systems into play looking at all of them. But I will tell you when I had team members traveling to multi offices, that's hard on teams too. They have no clue. They don't have clarity. So they're just kind of like running with you. So everybody's running at full steam, but actually not making progress. I want you just to imagine like you are literally spinning your wheels. So it sounds like you're making progress. but the distance you're going is so minimal versus we want less sound, AKA less chaos and way more forward momentum. And so really love that you were able to do that and dial it in, figure it out. Now, how did the conversation go to sell a practice? Cause I mean, five months and selling a practice, like what did that even look like? How do you even have that conversation? How did this practice execute that quickly? Cause I'm actually really proud of them on that too. Dana (15:42) Yeah. So honestly and truly when we review the numbers, I think the conversation just naturally happened because you could clearly see, you know, that they're ultimately either we need to pump in a fair amount in team expenses, marketing and things like that to get the practice to where it needed to be or ultimately make the other decision. so I think just reviewing the numbers, the conversation naturally came up because it was a glaring, you know, kind of red light. ⁓ and honestly and truly it just was kind of a luck of knew someone in the area that was looking for a multi-practice venture and like just having a network and connections that it worked out so quickly and honestly it finalized within 60 days so it was a very very quick but it just you know happened to be that it was a very strong network ⁓ and made a local connection Kiera Dent (16:13) Mm-hmm. incredible. Yeah, which is also incredible to like have good connections and people often say, think it's, think kudos to this office that you worked with of they were willing to execute and take action quickly and not sit here and give excuses and say, my gosh, there's no one that will ever be there. It was great. see the bleed. And what I love when you talk about numbers, and this is why I think we're so passionate in Dental A Team like numbers, numbers, numbers. Like I harp on this day to know that I am like, ladies, what are the numbers telling us? Look at the numbers that's going to tell you. where you need to go and what you need to get. And like it's literally the treasure map to what needs to happen. But sometimes we're so in the weeds. I do it too. This is why I have coaches for Dental A Team. I'm so in the weeds and I need to get somebody outside of that. But looking at this, there are decisions now to be made. And I think numbers create clarity. So this practice could have like another scenario if we want to choose our own adventure, there are offices that see this practice is bleeding money. So then what do we do? How can we stop the bleed? Let's look at our costs. Let's look to see where we're producing. And sometimes it's a slow grow. So we're only gonna open up one day, but we're gonna open up on Monday, be closed Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. The next week we're gonna be open Tuesday. The next week we're gonna be open Wednesday, next week Thursday, next week Friday. So we can say we're open five days a week, but we're not putting the cost in five days a week. So we're strategic on doing this. We can also have it to where we don't have to staff it as high. So if we know we've got doctors in there that can produce. bring them in for hygiene, if there's dentistry to be done, do the dentistry, move hygiene over to a Friday where a lot of hygienists are off. You can get a part-time hygienist that can come in as that Friday hygienist. You can stack a whole hygiene schedule so we're not paying a hygienist to be on staff every day. ⁓ There are ways that they can do it. They could bring on an associate. They could look at, like you said, the marketing costs, but when you look at the numbers, numbers give so much clarity and then you can make decisions. And then the decision's pretty simple of, Do we need money right now? This practice was needing money. They needed to have the bleed stop. They needed to become profitable. And for them time and profit was more important, it sounds like, than growing and expanding. For other people, like, no, we need to grow and expand. So we're to pump money over here. We're going to grow this, but we now know a more strategic path. So I just want you to know, like, you don't have to sell. But I think being realistic, I remember listening in ⁓ early on in my career and it said, like, sometimes knowing when to close a business. is actually one of the smartest things that a CEO can do. And I remember I listened to that. were doing Dental A Team, tip or no, a Spiffy Tiffy back to dental placement pros days when we used to do recruiting. I should have stayed in that business Dana, like man recruit. I was starting at, I think I charged, I think a thousand, maybe 3000 max to hire and place an associate doctors. should have like hired me. Like I was a hot cake. Like I was so, I mean, now it's like 15 to 50,000 bucks. Like man, but Dana (19:19) Yeah. Kiera Dent (19:26) I remember listening to that podcast and dental place and pros was taking so much time and was so unprofitable. like we had higher and then people would wait the like 90 days and on day 89 they'd like we're terminating them. I was like, my gosh, I gotta go higher again. That business was consuming so much time, energy and effort when it wasn't the one that was going to, it wasn't my passion. It just was out of necessity. Dental A team was my passion by far. And I remember like it, as a business owner is actually really hard to admit that a business is failing. I'm not going to lie. Like I remember driving. I remember exactly where it was. It was like a snowy day. It was very overcast. And I just like had to have that hard, honest conversation with myself of you need to close dental placement pros and you need to put all your focus on Dental A Team. That's actually the, like the practice, if you will, the business that makes me excited. Um, and I think swallowing ego, I think looking and learning what I did wrong in that business. Today, I do that way differently. I'd run it so much differently. It'd be completely separate. I wouldn't be pulling my employees. There were just so many things I did wrong. But I think having the humility and knowing when it's time to close something down versus open something up, I think sometimes it can feel really sexy and exciting to grow. But if we're just growing for the sake of growth, but we're not getting the time and profit that's truly our driver, I think those are great questions to ponder when we're looking at this. So those are kind of my thoughts. Any other thoughts you have? It's such an amazing. Dana (20:45) And then. Kiera Dent (20:48) like transformation story. Dana (20:49) Yeah, and it's been really fun. you know, you're absolutely right. And we spent a lot of time on our calls kind of choosing our own adventure. What would it look like if you know, what's been our average marketing budget? And and and if we spent more and we had this book, what would that timeline look like to get it to what is the active number of patients we need to make it profitable? We did say, okay, if we pull and we add days, what does that pull from the profitable practice if we move the doctor, you know, to the other practice, we talked about expenses for an associate and what we felt like they could produce as we added a certain amount of new patients each month. And so it's been also fun for me as a consultant to kind of do that choose your own adventure with them and honestly and truly just give them the numbers and give them the timelines that then they can really, really make a decision that I feel like they were super confident in because they had all of that information and kind of made the decision I feel like eyes wide open. Kiera Dent (21:48) Yeah, and I think as consultants, this is what drives us. This is our passion to help practices and owners be empowered to make decisions that they want, not ones that they have to make. And so it's a, you're not forced into a decision. You made it with eyes wide open. You had all the numbers. You had all the facts you knew. You knew the pros and cons. And like you said, it is a choose your own adventure. And I think when we can take the, I don't know, it's almost like the stress, the heaviness of business. and turn it into a light, fun game. like, yeah, pretend we're reading a book and your book is your business. And it's like, I could do this way and end up at this chapter. I could go this way and end up at this chapter. Both endings are great. Both endings are your story. Both are filled with highs and lows and all the way around. But I agree with you, Dana. I think it's a beautiful thing to be able to empower our clients, to help them see, to get them out of the death spike, like, sirel downward and help them actually come to like a space of I don't know. It's almost like what you, took this. I feel like the way this office probably felt is they were walking in a heavy, dark cloud, like head down, hunkered down, staring at the ground and just trying to figure out how to get there. And you took them into this like beautiful new neighborhood. It's bright. It's cheery. The birds are singing. They're skipping along there with their family. Like they are living their best life. And that was done in five months. And so just really an incredible thing for us to look at. And so I think for you listening, like, where are you at? Maybe you're on cashflow row. Maybe you're on growth row. Maybe you are on trying to figure out your next adventure. But I don't think this practice even knew that this is their choose your own adventure. think Dana, you are able to be that guiding light shining for them, helping them see, peel apart under all the pieces. And I think really giving them the guidance that they need. So any last thoughts you've got on the choose your own adventure, going from negative to 16 % profit in five months, dang, that's a title and something you should be proud of. Dana (23:41) Yeah, this is definitely an office that I'm super proud of. ⁓ And you're right. These are the things that I think we live for. We love, we hope we see, you know, and we want to see for every client that comes our way. ⁓ And I think it just shows possibilities. And when you really hone in and you are able to make decisions with ease and clarity, it just massively, massively changes your stress level and just your entire life. Kiera Dent (24:11) Yeah, we say is life and business on purpose. so Dana, just love, love, I mean, Dynamite Dana, might stick girl. That is a dynamite story and really freaking proud of you and proud of the client too. Proud of them showing up. It takes grit, it takes humility, it takes courage. And I think just if you're sitting in that boat, if you're wondering, reach out. ⁓ This office five months ago did not know how to see forward. And now they're able to live a much different life very quickly. And I think if that's you. if you can relate to this office autopsy. That's why we do office autopsy sharing it. So hopefully you can see yourself painted in the fabric of someone else's story, knowing what's possible, what's real for you. You don't have to have multi-practices. You don't have to have any of that, but it might be you're on cashflow row. You're negative. You don't know how to see out. You're at a spin or you want to optimize you like this. came to us literally. They came in wanting to have help with systems and training a regional manager and look at what was uncovered. So what you might think is your pain point might actually not be the true pain point. there might be something deeper below. So Dana, real proud of you, real proud of this client. For all of you questioning, wondering, reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. This is what we live for. Truly seeing you succeed is what makes us so lit up. Like it's, it is the highlight of our year, our week, our month. So for all of you, take the call, let's, let's chat and let's get you these same success stories. So Dana, proud of you. Love having you on the podcast. Thanks for being here. And for all of you, of course. And for all of you listening, thanks for listening. And I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast. Dana (25:34) Thanks for having me.

Education is on the ballot this year. Voters statewide are looking at propositions LL and MM concerning funding for school lunch programs. In Denver, 11 candidates are vying for four open DPS board seats, and some of those races are getting spicy. DPS Parent and BoardHawk podcast co-host Alexis Menocal-Harrigan has been interviewing the contenders for those open board seats and she joins host Bree Davies to dig into the details. She also gives insight into how state budget shortfalls are impacting students, why the teachers unions vs. reformers narrative is old news, and who these board candidates are.  After we recorded, Alexis told us she misspoke about DJ Torres' fellowship with Denver Families. His fellowship came with a $5,000 award, not $1,000.  For even more news from around the city, subscribe to our morning newsletter Hey Denver at denver.citycast.fm. Follow us on Instagram: @citycastdenver Chat with other listeners on reddit: r/CityCastDenver Support City Cast Denver by becoming a member: membership.citycast.fm How are you voting on the school board races? We want to hear from you! Text or leave us a voicemail with your name and neighborhood, and you might hear it on the show: 720-500-5418 Learn more about the sponsors of this October 30th episode: Arvada Center Denver Art Museum Denver Film Looking to advertise on City Cast Denver? Check out our options for podcast and newsletter ads at citycast.fm/advertise