Podcasts about MM

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All Home Care Matters and our host, Lance A. Slatton were honored to welcome Alder Allensworth as guest to the show.   About Alder Allensworth, MM, RN:   Alder Allensworth, MM, RN, is a registered nurse and retired hospice counselor who supported families caring for loved ones with dementia at the end of life. Her professional background spans working with both children and older adults, including those living with Alzheimer's disease.   The inspiration for this project grew from Alder's personal experience witnessing her mother, who had Alzheimer's, connect meaningfully with her grandchildren—Alder's nieces and nephews. This powerful family experience, combined with her clinical work, deepened her commitment to helping families navigate dementia with compassion, creativity, and connection.   Alder is also an accomplished writer, having published several articles in professional journals and books. As a speaker and presenter in the field of disabilities, she has shared her insights on local, national, and international stages. Her advocacy and dedication to promoting quality of life for people with disabilities have been featured on CNN, as well as in international media and local news outlets.   About Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP):   The Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP) is a family-centered, multimedia educational program with an online community component designed to help parents, children, educators, and healthcare professionals navigate the challenges of Alzheimer's disease.   Created especially for families in the "sandwich generation," it provides practical tools, guidance, and meaningful activities that support positive interactions between children and loved ones living with Alzheimer's from diagnosis through the severe stage. The program helps children and their families stay meaningfully connected throughout the journey.   At the heart of the program is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Awareness Program (MMAAP), a 5-video educational series covering each stage of the disease, along with guidance for adults raising children while caregiving. The program also includes a quick reference guide, transcripts, and accessible audio and visual resources to support a wide range of learning needs.   Importantly, the MMAAP helps children understand Alzheimer's in age-appropriate ways and gives them simple, meaningful activities they can do with their loved one to maintain connection and nurture the relationship.   Complementing the video series is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Disease Picture Book, a gentle, child-friendly introduction to Alzheimer's. The book follows a young girl learning how to understand and connect with her grandmother as the disease progresses. It includes a QR code for a free Story Song download whose lyrics are the text for the book—making the learning experience engaging, memorable, and accessible for young children and early readers.   The complete MMAP is also a valuable resource for Adult Day Centers and Memory Care Communities, offering a ready-to-run educational program for families. It helps answer common questions proactively, reducing the need for staff to repeatedly provide the same explanations. This allows them to focus more on care and connection.   Together, the program and book go beyond education—they empower families to create meaningful moments, maintain connection, and build positive memories throughout the course of Alzheimer's and other dementias.

Tiff and Kristy address why the doctor (or the practice lead or the OM) always end up getting sucked back in to answer questions they shouldn't have to. The pair also gives solutions on how to curb this automatic approach, including establishing clarity, providing the right resources, and being patient when things go wrong. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review   Transcript: Tiffanie (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I am back here with you on the podcast. I love being here. I love what we get to do, and I love more than any of that podcasting with Kristy. And I hope that you guys have taken the time to get to know Kristy, that you've seen her on other podcasts, but also that you maybe have chosen to work with her. She's got some incredible clients. Kristy is full right now in the in the the   recording of this podcast, but she is really awesome at sneaking in some room there too. We do take advantage of that sometimes. So Kristy, thank you for being here. If they don't know you, I hope they go and figure out who you are. They go scope you if you get some more Instagram follow requests or wherever you're at, just know that's my fault. So good morning Kristy. How are you today?   DAT- Kristy (00:49) Good morning. It's a good morning. I love starting my day, actually starting my week and getting our time together because so many times we don't we don't get to work with each other. So yeah.   Tiffanie (00:54) Yeah.   I know. I agree.   I agree. We have like one half hour a month that we pre schedule to make sure that we can connect. but I love that I do get my podcasting time with you guys too. There's more consultants now, so it's spread out a little bit thinner. but when I when I can, I love getting my time with you ladies. So thank you. Thank you for making this easy on me. I'm actually really excited for this   Topic today. And just so you guys, you listeners, know the topics, they come from the marketing does a lot of research. Our marketing company, our marketing team within our company, does a lot of research on what some hot topics might be, what dentistry is going through right now, kind of just different areas and different facets of life. And so they do come up with some incredible, incredible topics that we love to spin off of.   And with that, if there's ever anything that you guys are experiencing in your world, I want you to know Hello@TheDentalATeam.com is the easiest place to reach out to us or on our website, TheDentalATeam.com. There's a little like chat with us. You can reach out to us and let us know what you're experiencing. We are more than happy to help dive into your cases and kind of figure out what it is. But also that leads to some great podcast topics as well. So if there are things that you want to hear more of.   or less of, by all means, please reach out to us, let us know what your thoughts are, because we'd be happy to add some things into the mix as well. So, Kristy, with that said, I'm really excited for today's topic. I think that this is something that no matter what time of year it is, is relevant. And I know that we work with a lot of leaders, a lot of CEO dentists, a lot of owners, a lot of leadership teams, office managers, regional managers.   DSOs, like we work with a slew of ranges within the dental industry. And something that I think consistently comes back for all of us. And I think Kristy, you and I actually experience this with the level and the size of practices that we get. We experience it quite a bit. And we've experienced it in our own company. Kiera, I love you. We've experienced this a lot in our own company of   DAT- Kristy (03:12) Ha ha ha.   Tiffanie (03:16) not knowing where to go for a decision, so you go to the person that you know can make the decision, I guess is the best way to say it. And we've got a lot of doctors that sit in a dental chair, right? They're in their chair and they've got a drill in a hand and a mirror in a hand and their loops on their head and they're drilling. And they've got somebody in the background asking them where they order their paper from, right? Or something, right? Like the the plumber. Well what plumber should I call? Because the   Toilets plugs. Like I there's a ridiculous amount of questions that are going on behind the doctor. and it and Kristy, the conversation today is is that the right person? Right? And why? Because I think we both get this question from our doctors, why are they asking them? Right? I my doctors are constantly like, Why me? Why me? Like, well, you're really special, right? Like they   I trust you so much. You're just so special. And a lot of it's self-created. We can dive into that. But when we're when we're really truly looking at the end all be all, and you've got your dentist and you've got your CEO, you've got your your different positions within the practice, what are the most common reasons or let's go off of one, Kristy, that you see most frequently? Why is the dentist the one that they go to?   DAT- Kristy (04:13) Yeah.   Yeah. I love this topic as well, Tiff. And I think just for clarity, this can even work for your your practice leads or OM, you know, a lot of times, I I I told you earlier in one of our podcasts that we create our own problems. And I believe that a lot of times this is our own creation too. Again, not not by choice, you know what I mean? But we have to paint clarity.   Tiffanie (04:47) Absolutely.   DAT- Kristy (05:08) We have to paint clarity for our team on what things they are free to handle and what things you want coming to you. You know, number one, paint that clarity. And then number two, give them the resources to do it. I'm gonna try to remember the saying, but it it goes something about, you know, our job as leaders is to know how few decisions we have to make truly in a day. And maybe that's scary, right? That's a scary thought, but   Tiffanie (05:16) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (05:37) Truly, as the leader, I think you have to paint that vision for your teams and then just continue to reinforce that. Because a lot of times your team's gonna have better answers than you do, even. So clarity, yeah, one hundred percent. Clarity number one. Clarity number one for sure.   Tiffanie (05:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And resources.   Yeah.   And I think within that making sure that you have clarity on what w the directions that you're going for one thing, right? Like what how do I make this decision? Because I'm I'm making this decision based on on the end goal for the practice, but also clarity within every job that's within the practice. Like who who would make this decision if not the dentist? So when or if not for for us it would be if not Kiera, right? And I think that's   One, it's very easy to see. It's easy for us to see. So it's easy for us to speak to that within our own company. And then we get the luxury of seeing it within dental practices to speak to that. But just truly know, like you said, it it works for every leader in the practice office managers or whatever. But you guys, this is transferable to any business structure because, you know, unbeknownst to you, you own a business. And so your business structure is not dentistry.   Your business structure is business. And when we can realize that and take the dentistry out of the business and let the business be a business, I think that's where you guys really truly will thrive. You get so lost in trying to make dentistry the business, but dentistry is what you're doing. You're providing dentistry. The business has to stand outside of the dentistry. They can't   Dentistry can't be the business anymore. Maybe a long time ago it could. And you know, maybe you're in your grandfather's practice and your di your father was there and you've inherited some routines and some systems, but the world is different in 2026 and whatever future year you're listening to this in, the world is different, and you have to be able to separate those things. And Kristy, that's I think where that clarity comes in is the business.   Where is the business going? Because the dentistry is gonna be dentistry and the dentistry is gonna follow the trends of dental. we're gonna, you know, we're gonna get all the tech, we're gonna get all of those things, but where is the business going so that the dentistry can still happen is huge. And having the clarity around that and the clarity around who would make this decision if not the owner is huge. And to your point, that's where the leads come in, the office manager and like if you're   If you need a plumber, right? Dentists, owners, if you're the one who has to make that decision, go back to Kristy's first comment. Like, what dis what decisions do I need to make? Is it the most important decision of your day to figure out which plumber, which AC repair guy, which I don't know, carpet cleaner? Like, is that a decision that you want to make and need to make? And Kristy, I think that's where that space of like, no, actually, this would be my manager.   or this would be our clinical director, that that has to be stated and clear so that an office manager or a dental assistant knows who do I go to.   DAT- Kristy (09:01) One hundred percent and document those things. I mean, maybe you do have a doctor that's like, My brother's the plumber, so we always call my brother. Then have a list of those items with the numbers and who to contact, you know. But yeah, and to your point too, Tiff, I think so many times we don't create the space for our doctors or leaders to have these conversations. Like running down the hall in between patients is never.   the time to do it. I mean doctors say yes to so many things they would not have said yes to just because it's like you know right there and I have to handle it but truly block time to have discussions that are truly the things that need to come to doctor to make the decision. But also as leaders watch how you preface the question. You know I need to call a plumber. This is what I was thinking. You know   Tiffanie (09:35) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (09:58) And and then to that point too, Tiff, painting the clarity. If you have a a go-to that you want, make sure that that's vocalized. But then also going back to leaders, how many times do we just answer the question versus asking our team members, what do you think? And I know I hear this day in and day out. It's faster just to do it myself, right? It's faster to do it myself.   But I think it was you, Tiff, that told me choose your hard. And it's Britt. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Choose your hard. And the time you take in the very beginning to train your team, this is how we do it, will go so much further in the long run. So give your team the opportunity to answer the question because then you're you're making them think for themselves and not rely on you.   Tiffanie (10:31) It's Britt. Britt told everyone, but I love that. I use it all the time.   DAT- Kristy (10:57) Again, going back to us creating our own problems, when we answer for our for them, you're not you're not letting them rise to the occasion and grow to the level that you're looking for.   Tiffanie (11:08) Yeah.   I completely agree. And I think this is something that's so relatable for parents. because in my opinion, I say this a lot, and I think we are people are people and we learn the way we learn, we we hear the way we le we hear and we can grow. We do grow and we physically grow, but at the bottom of it all, we're still people. And when we again like when we treat things so differently, we think, they're adults, they should   They should know why. I have so many dentists, by the way, who have said that to me, or so many office managers that's like, why do I need to spell this out? They're an adult. Why don't they just know? And I'm like, because they're trying to figure out what you want. They're not trying to figure out how to solve this. Because if it were outside of your dental practice and they were at home, or if they were on the side of this side of the street in a broke down car, they would figure it out. They're not, they're not incapable. They don't know what you want.   And so trying to figure out what someone else wants, trying to intuit the right answer when you have not enough direction to know, but you're trying to please, you're trying to do it correct, you're trying to not ruin a business with a plumber decision, you're gonna just ask the person. And when you just answer, just like a parent, if I just answer every single time, am I giving Brody the space to grow and to learn things on his own when he was little? He   used to get frustrated with me, then he kinda he kinda just learned that I was always gonna say it. He would say, Mom mom, how, you know, how did they do this? How did they build that? How did they and he's in the backseat of the car just seeing everything. Mom mom, how did they, how did they, how did they? And I would say, buddy, what do you think? And he'd just come up with these incredible ways that they built the building, that they put the traffic lights in, that they, you know, and I'm like, gosh, that's really smart. Do you also think that   And within that thought process of how do we grow our children to become positive parts of humanity, right? And independent to go live on their own and add value to the world. We're doing the same thing for our team members. So if we want our team members to be a valuable piece of humanity and add positive impact to our business, we have to grow them.   DAT- Kristy (13:14) Indeed. Yeah. And yeah.   Tiffanie (13:34) and allow them the space to grow in the same capacity that we do our own children. Otherwise they're gonna stay with us forever. Right? If I always clean up after the kids, they're gonna have messy houses later, right? And I'm gonna go over to their home and I'm gonna be like, what the heck? What did I did I teach you nothing? No, I taught you that I'll clean it.   DAT- Kristy (13:38) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. Tiff, I love that you talk about that. I know you just have Brody, but you also have some significant others in your life. But I remember even with my son and daughter, I thought my secondborn wasn't gonna talk. And it wasn't that he wasn't gonna talk, it's because my daughter was talking for him. And so many parents can relate to that. And so your analogy is like spot on. But also I you know, I want leaders to hear this loud and clear.   Tiffanie (13:58) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (14:21) They're gonna get it wrong. They're gonna get it wrong and they're gonna do it different than you. But please give them the space to do it because so many times it goes back to your Brody's mind. They can be more brilliant than we are. I'll never forget the story. I had a colleague t talk to me about buying a copier. The dentist was gonna go get this y you you probably remember back in the days the big Pitney bows, like I mean, it was on, it was a cart on wheels thing, you know.   Tiffanie (14:22) Mm-hmm.   They're huge. Yeah. Wheels, yup.   DAT- Kristy (14:50) Yeah, and they were spendy like a lot of money and he was gonna go buy this. And then actually what happened is he did buy it and the team wasn't using it and he was very, very upset. So then it taught him a valuable lesson that the next time that copier went out, he went to them and asked them the features that they wanted, or better yet, just give them a budget to work within and let them go buy it themselves, right? Because   So many times, doctors, we try to make those decisions or as leaders, we try to make those decisions. we're gonna cut back our hours. you're gonna work this time to this time. You know what? Just put it out to your team. This is what we're doing. We need to fill these hours. What what can you guys come up with? And nine times out of ten, they're gonna come up s with something better than we can as leaders.   Tiffanie (15:42) Yeah, and Kristy, to your point, I think the copy machine is is brilliant. That's a brilliant thought process because on the flip side of that, our dentists right now, our owners are going, Yeah, but he was trying to do he was he got the best of the best to do the best thing for the team. He's trying to he's trying to do something. And so many of our our leaders come back to us and they're like, gosh, I'm just not appreciated. They don't care that I put so much time and energy into picking out   the best copying machine that had the best features and was going to save them time and it was going to do all these things for them and they didn't even use it. They don't care. And it's not that they don't care, right? It's not that our kids don't care that we slave over dinner every night and then do the dishes and then make sure that their laundry is done. Like they don't, it's not that they don't care. It's that they don't there's not value and appreciation on it because they don't know what they don't know the value of it. And when they go and they're able to go   Do the research and find the coffee machine that they want, they're like, this is really cool. I'm gonna use it. Thank you so much, Doc, for allowing us to get this. Right. And I think it goes back to like a goes back to compliments, right? It feels so much better to give a compliment than to receive a compliment. And when you receive something, somebody's like, here, use this coffee machine. You're like, cool, thanks. Like, I don't know how to respond to that, right? Like, okay, thank you.   DAT- Kristy (16:47) Yep.   Tiffanie (17:07) But when you're like, my gosh, we found the best copy machine. This is gonna save us so much time. This is gonna be incredible. They're actually gonna use it.   DAT- Kristy (17:15) Yeah, I love that you make that statement because Tiff, we believe in meeting with our teams one-on-one. And I love the feedback loop, like reinforce the things that are good. So when your team does get it right, recognize it. What gets rewarded gets repeated, I like to say. And the things that maybe need guidance or development when they do miss the mark, approach it with curiosity instead of like, what the heck were you thinking? Why did you do that?   Hey, out of curiosity, Tiff, will you share with me how did you come up with that decision? You know, and then use it as an opportunity to guide the outcome. So again, if it was my blood, my brother is the plumber and that's who I wanted you to call, can you share with me how you made the decision to call ABC plumbing? You know, where did you come up with that? And then re guide them to the outcome you're looking for. So that feedback is is critical. Yeah.   Tiffanie (18:11) I agree.   DAT- Kristy (18:12) And I don't   know a team member that walks in the door and says, I wanna make my doctor's life hell today, you know? So   Tiffanie (18:17) Yes, I agree. I agree.   And the way you said the curiosity of like tell me, tell me how we got here. And there's been so many times, Kristy, even just like with Brody, but with team members too, where I've said, tell me more about that. Like help me understand. Because my brain is my brain is focused on what I thought the outcome was going to be and what it should have been. And if I stay stuck there, you're wrong no matter what. But when I go in with curiosity and I say   DAT- Kristy (18:43) Yeah.   Tiffanie (18:46) Tell me more. Like, I want to know that side. Oftentimes, I would say at least 80% of the time, I'm like, cool. Actually, yeah, let's try it. Like, great, that's not what I thought I would have done, but I love that option. Let's explore it. But when we go in so hard with the like, you're wrong, you didn't make the decision I wanted you to, again, back to the beginning, it is nearly impossible to make a spot on decision based on what.   DAT- Kristy (18:54) Okay, yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (19:16) some like intuitively knowing what someone wants you to actually do. It's so hard.   DAT- Kristy (19:20) Yeah, too.   I was gonna say to your point with that, going back to that too, is we could actually shut down our team with those remarks because it's like, what were you thinking? Now I'm like fearful to even try to make a decision, you know, so thing.   Tiffanie (19:29) Hands down.   Okay.   And I'm gonna come to you with everything. Ever the pencil   that I order is gonna come to you because I never want to feel like that again. Immediately my brain is gonna say, Well, never gonna feel like that again. So we're gonna do the polar opposite of what I just did. We're gonna overcompensate and now you're going to be making every minor decision possible in this company.   DAT- Kristy (19:56) Yeah, one hundred percent. It seems so easy and I mean I wish it was that easy, but truly slow down and and ask a question and approach from curiosity, it's gonna get you a lot further for sure.   Tiffanie (20:10) Totally agree. Yeah. So actionable pieces. I hope you guys loved this as much as we loved doing it. Kristy, I know I am like I could I could do this one for hours. So I love the psychological pieces of it and communication is I think both of our jam. So I know we can go on forever. Actionable items, I would say job descriptions, clear job descriptions and roles. I think decision trees and and also organizational charts. So who   DAT- Kristy (20:20) Yeah.   Tiffanie (20:40) is responsible for what that goes into your job description as well, but who can I go to? Like who's my next in line that would be able to get me this answer? And then learning how to have that positive feedback and being in the question. Like how how can you ask more questions to understand rather than being in the decision already and judging? Kristy, anything you can think of that I missed there within those actionable pieces?   DAT- Kristy (21:06) No, Tiff, truly not. I just think it's a muscle that we have to work. And I will also say, like, my greatest performing teams have developed this type of hierarchy, if you will say, because it helped and it tethers the team to them. It really does. So if you don't want team turnover, you're allowing your people to grow in a way that that   Tiffanie (21:24) Yeah, I agree.   DAT- Kristy (21:31) They need to grow and they want to grow. And when you master this skill of 'cause it really is a skill set, when you master it, it's a win win all the way around.   Tiffanie (21:43) Totally agree. I completely agree. Thank you, Kristy. And I know you work on this with all of the leaders that you work with because whether you're really great at it or not, there's always room for growth, there's room for better understanding, and there's room for revisiting. We are huge, huge proponents of relearning and going back to the things that work to get you where you are, and then also integrating and implementing and changing new policies and procedures. So I love it. Thank you, Kristy, so much for being here with us today. listeners.   When you decided that you loved this, I hope you went and you clicked that five star and gave us a nice review. If you haven't done that yet, go do that. let us know what you thought. Let us know any tips or tricks that you have within this realm as well. And if you're one of these leaders that we're talking about that you just feel stuck and you feel like, gosh, I'm in this constant loop of having to make decisions, you're gonna hit decision fatigue real fast. So reach out to us, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or on our website, TheDentalATeam.com. We've got a quick little link there that you can schedule a   free consultation with us so that we can just say, hey, these are some tips and tricks to move forward or hey, yes, you are a perfect match. We would love to work with you. Please reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and you guys, we cannot wait to catch you next time. Thank you.  

Faut-il continuer à publier sur les réseaux sociaux pro pendant les vacances… ou disparaître complètement ?Dans l'épisode d'En Route que je te dévoilerai demain, Nelly et Justine expliquent pourquoi, pour elles, il faut continuer à publier. Et moi, ça m'a donné envie d'ouvrir le débat !Dans cette Minute Marine, je te partage différents points de vue et ma propre stratégie de création de contenu pour le podcast et LinkedIn. Avec, comme souvent, pas de réponse toute faite : tout dépend surtout de ta cible et de ce qu'elle fait pendant l'été.Et toi, tu disparais des radars pendant tes vacances ou tu continues à publier ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Welcome back to the 295th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 295th episode we bring you the second instalment of our very special multi part deep dive into Toronto Fringe 2026 Review Roundup. Join Jillian Robinson and Ryan Borochovitz as they blitz through the next fifteen shows they saw at this year's festival (including a discussion of the show that Jill performed in), unpack all of their thoughts, and commemorate this moment in local theatre history for posterity! Catch up on Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccbbjNYFO4gStay tuned for Part 3, coming soon! TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00 – Intro 5:45 – A Conversation with Myself 27:59 – Imagined Love39:03 – Lifeguard 48:22 – Springtime 1:03:00 – Neuro-DIVE! 1:12:44 – Gerry's Imaginarium 1:19:44 – Snacey! 1:28:52 – Sincerely, E 1:37:48 – Orbit 1:47:42 – Echoes of You 1:58:26 – outside these walls, everyone is sleeping 2:08:45 – Mary, Mary. 2:24:14 – Tortoise, the Hare, the Truth 2:34:18 – Ooga Chaka 2:45:27 – Such Ado! (not a review) 3:03:20 – Sign Off Follow our panelists: Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

MM-kisojen loppuottelun ja kisojen suurimmat puheenaiheet. Mukana myös visainen alkulämmittely.Tässä jaksossa isäntänä on Pauli Loukola ja mukana vakiojäsenet Samuli Justén sekä Juho Leskinen.*Alkulämmöt (1:04)*Loppuottelun puheenaiheet (13:26)*Argentiinan maine (44:44)Jakso nauhoitettu ma 20.7. Ota yhteyttä: seinakolmannelle@gmail.comSeuraa Instagramissa:https://www.instagram.com/seinakolmannelle/ (@seinakolmannelle)X:ssä:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠x.com/SKolmannelle⁠

Veronica ja Esko ovat ajankohtaisten asioiden äärellä ja käydään läpi tottakai fudiksen MM - finaali. Onko Veronica ottanut rannalla aurinkoa yläosattomissa ja missä Suomen kaupungissa se on kiellettyä? Darra, darude, koistinen... Rakkaalla lapsella on monta nimeä, mutta millaisia krapulan potijoita Esko ja Veronica ovat? Mitä kaikkea artistien raiderilistoilta voikaan löytyä, siihen saat vastauksen tästä! Huumoria, viihdettä ja hulvattomia tarinoita – tätä on Esko Eerikäisen ja Veronica Verhon Kesäaamut Radio Novalla. Kuuntele myös livenä ilmaiseksi Rayosta! Radio Novan Kesäaamut maanantaista perjantaihin klo 6-10.

Don’t Fade and Die in AI Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Matt Yanchyshyn, VP AWS Marketplace, Rekha Thangelapalita, Elastic GSI Leaders; Allison McFadden, Accenture AWS Leader; and James Kang of Nvidia join Ultimate Partner. In this panel discussion, leaders from Elastic, Accenture, Nvidia, and AWS dissect the urgent shifts in the ecosystem, emphasizing that partners must adapt to AI and agentic co-selling or risk fading away completely. The conversation explores the necessity of deep co-engineering, the power of multi-product solutions in the AWS marketplace, and how automated agents are now replacing traditional human sales pipeline progression. By embracing data readiness and strategic collaboration, organizations can survive the “token maxing” era, effectively scale their enterprise opportunities, and align with NVIDIA’s five-layer strategy to dominate the new cloud landscape. https://youtu.be/zUkL4Wqsa68 Key Takeaways AI agents will automate the majority of AWS partner co-selling attachments and opportunity progressions this year. Partners who fail to embrace agentic workflows and automated governance face the existential risk of fading into obsolescence. Successful multi-product offerings require a “blood to all organs” approach that benefits the client, the ISV, the GSI, and the hyperscaler simultaneously. Nvidia’s “five-layer cake” model emphasizes that successful outcomes at the application layer automatically drive growth for all underlying infrastructure. The “token maxing” phenomenon is forcing enterprises to seek cost-effective, open-model alternatives to scale their generative AI securely. Integrating GSIs and ISVs on the AWS marketplace significantly increases enterprise deal sizes and long-term customer renewal rates. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags strategic collaboration agreement, data readiness engine, agentic co-sell, semantic layer, token maxing, five layer cake, accelerated computing platform, open models, cloud consumption, multi-product solutions, partner central agents, propensity data, automated opportunity progression, generative AI governance Transcript Matt Y and Panel Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to Agen Co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:00:11] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:22] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi. Own your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because [00:00:46] Vince Menzione: being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:51] Vince Menzione: We’ve got some amazing leaders joining us. So I think probably for a little bit of context, maybe just start with Rika. You can introduce yourself, your role and, uh, what, what you’ve been doing at Elastic. Yeah. [00:01:03] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, sounds great. [00:01:04] Rekha Thangellapalli: Hi everyone. I’m Reka and I lead GSI Alliances at Elastic. Um, for the past 14 years, I’ve had the pleasure of building different kinds of partner ecosystems across companies such as SAP. MuleSoft, Salesforce, Coupa, and now Elastic. Um, I wanna thank Ultimate partner and Vince for having us here today. Thank you and the panel of these incredible speakers for joining me on stage. [00:01:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, very excited for the conversation today. [00:01:33] Vince Menzione: We love Elastic, and you’ve had some of your other leaders on stage at other events. As such, the quality of your leadership team is amazing. Thank you. [00:01:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: I wholeheartedly agree. [00:01:45] Allison McFadden: Excellent. Um, hello everyone. Allison McFadden. I lead our North America AWS practice at Accenture. [00:01:52] Allison McFadden: Uh, I’ve been there for five years, and truth be told, it was my first partnership role, my first formal partnership role. Uh, so I can take some tips from all of you in the room here today. Prior to that, I was 21 years with IBM, and I got into partnerships because my last role at IBM was actually trying to build. [00:02:14] Allison McFadden: Linux business on the mainframe, and I had to have partners. I had to have partners to help me with workloads to run there. So I kind of learned, uh, trial by fire. But I’m excited for the conversation today. Excited to be in this room and excited to talk about what we’re doing with, uh, elastic. Thank you. [00:02:34] James Kang: Uh, my name is James Kang. Nice to see and meet everyone here. Vince, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you [00:02:38] Vince Menzione: for being here. [00:02:39] James Kang: Um, I’m with Nvidia, so I help manage the AWS partnership at Nvidia all up. Um, I guess fun fact, I’m former AWS and so I see a lot of very familiar faces here in the front row. Uh, former colleagues and then current friends. [00:02:56] James Kang: And so, uh, looking forward to the conversation. [00:02:59] Vince Menzione: Great. Well, we’ll start with an easy tia. Matt. This is not directed to you, directed to the others. So what does a successful AWS partnership look like from your C? So we’ll start with Eureka. [00:03:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. So from an ISV perspective, I think we really are looking at three things. [00:03:15] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, mutual investment building together. And scaling together. So when we talk about mutual investment, elastic recently signed a five-year SCA or strategic collaboration agreement with AWS. And while that is a significant milestone in our partnership, for us, what matters more is what it represents, and that is really a long-term commitment from both companies. [00:03:39] Rekha Thangellapalli: Towards product engineering, um, and joint go to market initiatives to deliver value to customers over time. And that’s what we see is that the best partnerships really compound and they build upon each other every year. Um, they don’t necessarily kind of reset every year. Um, next we talk about building together. [00:03:59] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, um. When we talk about joint solutions, we want to deliver solutions that are better together and the customers have to see us that way. And so whether it’s search, observability, or security, we’re looking at taking to market solutions that we can’t or necessarily don’t wanna take on our own. And finally we talk about scaling together. [00:04:22] Rekha Thangellapalli: And this is where marketplace, for instance, plays a big role, um, when customers can draw down on their cloud commitments, transact online and go from, you know, pilot to enterprise scale adoption in hours, not days. Um, this is when really everyone wins. Um, and this is also where partners like Accenture play a critical role. [00:04:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, you know, the incredible amount of expertise that they bring, uh, the managed services capabilities and, um, their data assets actually play a huge role in having our customers realize that value faster. And, um, like Vince mentioned, at the end of the day, best partnerships are all all about creating kind of that. [00:05:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Self-sustaining flywheel. And so it starts with investing together, building something unique, and having the customers realize that success faster because that success is really the only thing that’s gonna keep that flywheel going for everyone involved. I [00:05:26] Vince Menzione: absolutely. [00:05:26] Allison McFadden: Okay, amazing. I’m gonna riff off a few things Ika said, but from a GSI perspective. [00:05:32] Allison McFadden: A relationship with a WSA successful relationship with AWS looks slightly different. Um, so I think the first thing that we think of in the GSI Community common thread is that the client outcome and delivering value for clients is what we, what we’re striving for. Um, and so the partnership with AWS in that case, um, um, it has to, it has to. [00:06:01] Allison McFadden: Look like one team in front of our clients. So we have to show up indistinguishable, and that’s with AWS and with an ISV partner, it has to look like one solution in front of the client, especially moments that matter. So board meetings, um, you know, the time we’re gonna sign a deal, like we have to look like one team, uh, and keep our our client outcome, um, first and foremost in mind. [00:06:24] Allison McFadden: The second thing, and this is I think where the magic of all the people in this room comes into play. We can have as many discussions at a CEO level as we want. And if our client teams on the ground are not working together, it falls apart. Falls apart directly in front of the client. Yes. And that is a really hard thing to do. [00:06:45] Allison McFadden: So I’m passionate about the alliance work because that that work is what makes it happen at the corporate level. [00:06:53] James Kang: Cool. Um. I’ll start here. So in Nvidia is a accelerated computing platform company. Um, if you asked. Anyone on the, on the street about a year ago, what is ai? A lot of times they would say AI is, is open ai, or it’s philanthropic. [00:07:12] James Kang: Um, Jensen and I’ll, I’ll reference Jensen a lot today, um, because he is our leader, um, but he also sets the strategy in the direction for Nvidia. He talks a lot about AI in the metaphor of a five layer cake. And in terms of the five layer cake, you start off with the foundational bottom layer being power and energy, which sustains. [00:07:32] James Kang: All of our data centers, you move up the stack in terms of chips. So things think of Foxconn, think of TSMC. Next you have the infrastructure layer. So obvious choice is AWS, and then you get to the models where you do have the philanthropics and the open ais. But finally in at the precipice, you have the application layer. [00:07:53] James Kang: Ultimately, the reason why I mentioned all different stacks of the layers, the five layer cake, is the fact that the application layer is the most important. And so when you think about. Partners like Elastic or ServiceNow Trend, ai, CrowdStrike. Every time you pull from the application layer and you see a success, it pulls all five different components of that layer up. [00:08:13] James Kang: And so ultimately, as I think about success, it’s it’s being able to develop these co-sell wins at the application layer and really demonstrating that through extreme co-engineering and co-design with all the different application. Infrastructure, power and energy layers in mind. Um, Jensen also likes to think of himself not only as the CEO and founder, but also as the, the chief Marketing Officer. [00:08:35] James Kang: We are a very event driven company, and so at our big events like GTC or at big industry events like CES or Computex, he likes to show up on the biggest stage, biggest stages and showcase the partnerships with not only ISVs and GSIs, but also with end customers. And so that’s what I think about when I think of SA success. [00:08:56] Vince Menzione: That’s a really good point. You talked about, Allison, you talked about having an alliance strategy, or at least you teed it up, so I thought maybe we would go there for a second. Right? Like, what does a great alliance strategy look like and why is it important to the success of the partnership? [00:09:11] Allison McFadden: Man, I, uh, I have so many opinions on this. [00:09:13] Allison McFadden: We could probably be up here all day. That’s [00:09:15] Vince Menzione: okay. [00:09:16] Allison McFadden: Um, no, I think. Uh, there, there are a couple things, and the first one that comes to mind is focus. We cannot be all things to all people. Um, so when it comes to think about some of the, the work we’re doing with Elastic, we have a very, very clear point of view on what client problem we’re solving, what clients we want to talk to. [00:09:38] Allison McFadden: It helps if, um, from an ISV perspective, if there’s a very clear fit in. The Accenture portfolio or whatever, you know, SI consulting partner. You’re working with a very clear fit in the portfolio and we know what we’re not gonna go after, what we’re not gonna spend our time on because we have, we have this tendency, there’s millions of people. [00:10:00] Allison McFadden: The ecosystem chart that, you know, Vince, you showed up there, there’s so many connections. There’s probably more connections there than there are atoms in the universe, right? So, um. Defining what we do together and what we don’t do together is the first thing that pops to my mind. [00:10:19] Vince Menzione: Reka, do you have a perspective on it since we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk next about what you’ve done together, but, and I also wanna get mass perspective as a hyperscaler partner here as well. [00:10:29] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, I mean from my perspective, I, I’m gonna, you know, kinda echo what Allison said is to be just maniacally focused. Yep. Um, because, especially from my perspective, so Elastic has three different solutions, right? We’ve got search, we’ve got observability, we’ve got security that map to completely different business units within Accenture. [00:10:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: And of course Accenture does a lot of things. And so, you know, when we first came together it was like. Okay, what are we gonna focus on? What industries are we gonna go after? Which segments are we gonna go after? Which customers, you know, um, outcomes are we trying to solve? And I think that sort of maniacal focus is the number one contributing factor to, to the fact that I’m like, up here on stage today. [00:11:12] Rekha Thangellapalli: Great. [00:11:14] Vince Menzione: Matt? Perspective? [00:11:16] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I, I guess I was trying to. To add something, uh, additional from an AWS perspective, uh, when it comes to, you know, what does a great alliance look like? Uh, AWS is obsessed with data, you know, in data we trust. And, and so the best, um, and, and this goes sales business problem, and it’s not just the engineering teams. [00:11:34] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so, uh, you know, Accenture does a good job of this elastic, definitely. And if you can come to the table with, um, quantifiable proof of the value of customer outcomes and partnerships. Um, you’ll win all the time and it’ll be a durable relationship with AWS ’cause we really are this data obsessed company and, and even the most senior sales leaders. [00:11:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Uh, and so what I mean by that specifically is like if you, if you can show like your a RR to land an a RR conversion ratio, like in in numerical format, it’ll light up our sales leaders and, and they’ll be all, and they will co-sell with you all day long. If you can show the, I mentioned this earlier, like the AWS service, uh, whether you’re consulting company or, um, elastic and, and how the shape of customer accounts change positively when we work together. [00:12:15] Matt Yanchyshyn: That type of sort of quantifiable data works particularly well from an alliance perspective. With AWS as a partner, we, we really are like this data in sort of results out company. Um, so I, yeah, that’s just adding to the great points that were already made. I would say specific to AWS that that’s key. [00:12:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. And I’m gonna bring up one more thing. I want to dive in on the, the joint value proposition, but you mentioned something that made a lot of sense and resonated to me about the organizations once you get out of partner, the partner world that we all know and love. Mm-hmm. Once you get down into a field organization or account management organization. [00:12:49] Matt Yanchyshyn: Not as much understanding and really organizations do a bad job here, honestly, in terms of enabling the field organizations. Do you agree? [00:12:58] Allison McFadden: I agree because I, I agree. And, um, you know, I think that’s one of the things, and, and I, I, when I joined Accenture, what we had was a lot of wicked smart architects delivering programs to clients in the field. [00:13:15] Allison McFadden: Very smart, very deep in AWS knowledge. Um, and that was awesome for the 10 clients they were staffed on and to get that understanding of how AWS works and I dream about lar, right? Like, this is a good, you know, but that takes real effort and real work. Yeah. And it’s, it’s um, almost like being a language translator. [00:13:37] Allison McFadden: Yes. For me. Yeah. So, you know, I had to deeply learn AWS so that I could. [00:13:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. [00:13:42] Allison McFadden: Teach my account teams. My account teams are really smart. They know who they’re selling to. They know their customers. They know what their customers need. They do not know what AWS has to offer always because they’ve got 20 partners lining up to try to tell their stories. [00:13:57] Allison McFadden: Um, they don’t know how to ask of the AWS team or the elastic team or the Nvidia team. Yeah. What they need [00:14:02] Vince Menzione: this co-selling piece. Yeah. [00:14:04] Allison McFadden: And so that is where, um. We had to build that muscle even around our AWS practice, which was a huge practice at Accenture, but we didn’t necessarily surround it with that kind of enablement and um, almost deal coaching layer. [00:14:21] Vince Menzione: So Elastic and Accenture came together. I dunno which one of you wants to lead this part of the conversation, but you will, right? Yeah. So tell us about the genesis of this and why. And a lot of people dunno what Elastic does, but you do some really incredible work. Like I, somebody told me one day was like, oh, you know, Uber, like, that’s elastic, powering all that. [00:14:41] Vince Menzione: Like, we don’t think about that. That the engines that you have and the, the backend to the customers, huge customers. [00:14:48] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so when AWS launched this feature last, um, reinvent where basically it allowed, you know, channel partners such as Accenture to be able to bundle up their services, their data assets with an ISV solution and put it on marketplace, um, you know, Accenture and Elastic immediately saw an opportunity. [00:15:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, at the time most customers were doing gen ai. But they were running into the same challenge, which was that their data just was not ready. And by the way, this is a problem we were solving. Outside of marketplace. I think the, the feature that you guys launched just gave us a way to package it up and to be able to create this repeatable solution, which we call data readiness engine for gen ai and put it on marketplace. [00:15:40] Rekha Thangellapalli: And, um, this to me was a success because. Each company had a clear reason to invest. Um, so for Accenture, they were able to, you know, create a very differentiated services led offering. Uh, for Elastic, we were able to expand on our AI story. And for AWS, um, you know, it drives marketplace adoption, increases cloud consumption, all of that great stuff. [00:16:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: And customers, of course get. A solution to a very real problem that, that they were having. Um, and you know, the surprising part for me going through that journey was that, um. The pitching, the idea, getting the budget, getting the executive sponsorship was actually the easy part. The hard part was getting all three companies to come together, uh, to go from idea to launch in a very ambitious timeline of six weeks. [00:16:37] Rekha Thangellapalli: Nice. And so, you know, this was very much like. Doesn’t matter your title. We’re rolling up our sleeves and we are on this outcome together. Um, and so we literally built a RACI matrix, a project plan, and you know, we had daily standup calls for six weeks where literally. At least one person from each three of these companies called in, you know, got rid of any blockers and we made sure we were on target for that timeline. [00:17:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, and you know, at the end we had a successful launch. But I think my favorite part about the story is the impact that we’re having and, um. My favorite story comes from a global pharmaceutical company that, you know, had basically nine petabytes of data spread across six different continents. Wow. And by working with Accenture and Elastic, they were able to build that trusted foundation that their AI and their agents can, you know, kind of safely tap into and be accessible at scale. [00:17:41] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so that’s my version. Allison. [00:17:44] Allison McFadden: Yeah. Well, I don’t have a lot to add. I just, I would say this is a good example of a couple of principles, right? One is having a forcing function is never a bad idea. Sign up for a big event, sign up. I’m like, I’m here with my, you know, Nvidia guys saying, sign up for the event. [00:17:58] Allison McFadden: It’ll make you move quick, right? [00:18:00] Audience Member: Yes. [00:18:00] Allison McFadden: Um, so that is one, but two, one of my mentors once told me, when you’re designing any kind of, you know, offering go to market motion, it has to get blood to all organs. If it does not get blood to all organs, it does not go [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:18:14] Allison McFadden: Um, [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: I love that analogy. [00:18:15] Allison McFadden: Oh, I love it. And I can talk all day. [00:18:17] Allison McFadden: That guy was brilliant. I love him. But, um, no, and, and so Elastic did a really nice job of bringing the tech to the table. Um, our team has to trust in that technology and its ability to scale, right? Um, because at Accenture we have to be able to deploy across 700,000 consultants. Um. And yeah, so I think those are the two, two things that really worked well here is we had, uh, trust in the technology solved a customer need. [00:18:50] Allison McFadden: Um, it drives, we don’t even talk about, like, yes, it drives marketplace revenue, but it unlocks work that we do that drives even more revenue to our AWS Friends. Right. So this is a, this is a, um, product that’s getting your data ready for AG agentic. It’s a messy problem that everyone’s dealing with, and it removes blockers for clients and it unlocks more, you know, ag agentic work on top of that. [00:19:15] Allison McFadden: So, blood to all organs. [00:19:17] Vince Menzione: So, was that the proposal going forward to say we need to have, we need to have trust in the solution. We need to drive significant revenue. It needs to be something all of our, you know, seven, 700,000 people. Can be a part of and help drive? Is that how you think about? [00:19:32] Allison McFadden: Yeah, and for us right now, um, it’s an interesting time for Accenture. [00:19:36] Allison McFadden: Our clients are asking a lot of us, and what it does is it having some of these accelerators helps us deliver cheaper, better, faster to our clients, which is what they’re demanding of us right now. Um, so it’s an accelerator to client outcomes. [00:19:55] Vince Menzione: James, what is NVIDIA’s role and how do, how do you enter the equation here? [00:20:00] James Kang: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s a good question. Um, I, I would say that Nvidia is probably one of the most misunderstood organizations in the world. Um, despite the, uh, the market capitalization in the valuation of the company, we have a very tiny organization. Um, what I mean by that is, um, if you think about. [00:20:20] James Kang: Salesforces and field sales organizations. Um, we’ll take Salesforce as the account or the customer. As an example, we have one account manager at NVIDIA that no, not only covers and is responsible for the relationship with Salesforce, um, but also manages. Automation Anywhere as well as DocuSign. Whereas at AWS, in contrast, like there are full armies and teams Yeah. [00:20:45] James Kang: That are supporting the Salesforce relationship. And so as you think about partnering and working with Nvidia, the focus has to be on really. Extreme co-design, but also being very prescriptive in terms of what are the very specific customer outcomes that we are solving for. And the guidance that I would give is bring in Nvidia into that equation and that conversation as early as possible because that [00:21:10] James Kang: co-engineering and co-design needs to be part of the foundational building blocks in order for you to come out with a end solution that checks all those different requirements. [00:21:20] James Kang: And so I think. Again, like going back to Nvidia, um, we like to talk about two different types of brains. A brain one and a brain two. Uh, brain One you think about the next quarter and making sure that you’re hitting the revenue targets for the next quarter. Brain two, you think about a long-term goals and potentials looking around corners and being very strategic. [00:21:41] James Kang: The saying internally is without Brain one, there is no oxygen, but without brain two, there is no future. And everyone at NVIDIA is trained to think in that brain two mentality. [00:21:52] Vince Menzione: Wow, Matt. [00:21:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I was just thinking I love the blood doll organs. Uh, and so just on, on that note, um, and, and, you know, the multi-product solutions that, that you, you built together, uh, that is a really good example of blood do organs because like we all know, that’s how customers buy. [00:22:07] Matt Yanchyshyn: They, they buy solutions and increasingly they’re looking for combinations of ISV, sometimes multiple products from multiple ISVs with services. Uh, often they’re buying it through a resell motion. You know, and they, and, and so that from a customer perspective, they want a single place to go. And so that’s the multi-product solution. [00:22:24] Matt Yanchyshyn: They wanna find everything they need, they need Accenture, they need Elastic to solve a specific solution. And I think where that’s headed is even more specific listings, like with AI powered listing experience, like, you know, elastic Plus Accenture for, I’ll make something up like a manufacturing workload. [00:22:37] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so this solution based. Uh, sort of buying is, is very customer centric. It’s what customers want. We all know that. But that’s, that’s the customer sort of organ, I guess. Um, but then, you know, you all have SCAs and those SCAs have marketplace commits. It helps if that gets transacted through marketplace helps the AWS relationship, you know that that’s an organ. [00:22:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: It’s the relationship. It’s, it’s the commercial construct and that you have, uh, that that’s another organ. You’re marketing people. They, that’s another organ. They don’t wanna land, uh, leads on a static marketing page. They wanna land a lead on a, a storefront with a multi-product solution that can actually convert and that you can actually buy it through that. [00:23:12] Matt Yanchyshyn: So the marketing person’s happy because they, they have less churn. Uh, and then, you know, our reps are happy ’cause guess how they get paid? They retire quota when they sell Marketplace. And they, we also, Jay McMain will tell you, that’s another organ called Jay or on, on you now. Um, [00:23:27] Matt Yanchyshyn: he’ll like that. I’ll call him up and tell him that. [00:23:29] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, [00:23:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: but he, he’ll tell you, you know, don’t believe me. Obviously, never believe Matt, believe, believe the, the data and, and his data shows that. Those deals will close faster and larger if you use marketplace. So that’s, that’s a lot of organs. That’s the whole body. Um, but you know, when you have your customer happy ’cause that’s how they wanna buy your field happy. [00:23:45] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and, you know, the relationship happy and you know, your marketing team happy. Uh, and, and Jay happy. Um, and, and you know, I think that multi-product construct and, and the way you kind of use it to model a partnership and the way buyers ultimately wanna buy is, is really powerful. And so I, I think it’s, you know, it’s really a manifestation of how. [00:24:04] Matt Yanchyshyn: We kind of intend and to go to market anyway. Uh, so I think, you know, and thanks for leading the way, by the way. You’re, you’re amongst the very first, so that’s great to see. [00:24:11] Matt Yanchyshyn: So these storefronts are really helping this drive, drive this. Well, [00:24:13] Matt Yanchyshyn: that’s the next evolution. Like we’re talking about the multiproduct solution. [00:24:16] Allison McFadden: I’m JJ Accenture storefront. [00:24:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Oh, there you go. I mean, j and j Accenture storefront. [00:24:20] Allison McFadden: We’re gonna talk about that. [00:24:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. I mean, [00:24:21] Matt Yanchyshyn: Accenture also leading the way yet again with storefronts. And so I think the combination of. You know, again, I was talking a lot about conversion. Yeah. And you know, buyers know sometimes they know what they wanna buy and, but if you really wanna convert that lead, you wanna land them again, something that combines, you know, elastic Accenture’s services plus software, but in a storefront that is, you know, surrounding with just the solutions they want so they don’t need to kind of go searching. [00:24:42] Matt Yanchyshyn: So, you know, ultimately reducing that time to close, I guess, really ’cause meeting the customer where they are with what they need. [00:24:51] Matt Yanchyshyn: So we talk about co-selling a little bit. We, Jay and I talk about this all the time. We gotta keep looping Jay in here, even though he is not even in town this week, but Reko, um, what does co-sell look like inside Elastic? [00:25:02] Matt Yanchyshyn: You’ve got, we talked about an incredible leadership team. I’ve gotten meet some of your leaders. Seems like you drive, you do a good job internally driving that. Let’s talk a little bit about it. [00:25:11] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, and this is something I’m, I’m personally very passionate about. Um, co-sell is. Very much a journey, not a destination. [00:25:20] Rekha Thangellapalli: And I think step one for us is recognizing the different partner types that we have. Because at Elastic we work with, you know, OEMs, MSPs, resale distributors, GSIs, um, and they all bring something very unique. To the customer lifecycle and they all contribute very differently within, you know, our own sales cycle and sales process. [00:25:45] Rekha Thangellapalli: And so, you know, figuring out what is the unique benefit they bring, how do we enable them? So training and enablement is a huge piece of it, and so is making sure we’ve got the right metrics to measure success. Um, I know a lot of companies look at partner sourced as the north star, and that’s great, right? [00:26:06] Rekha Thangellapalli: Because that is undeniable. You can say, Hey, that would not exist if it wasn’t for my partner team. Um, but we’ve also noticed that when we bring in GSIs, it actually increases renewal rates. It significantly increases. Um, a RR over time. Um, it expands deal sizes and so these are very real metrics that we can point to, um, beyond just the co-sell and the partner sourced number. [00:26:32] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so for us it’s looking at it from a very holistic perspective, but also catering it towards that unique partner and making sure we’re doing everything we can to set them up for success and setting up the partnership for success. [00:26:47] Vince Menzione: So clo close win ratios, deal size and renewal rates? [00:26:52] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yes. For specifically for geos size. [00:26:54] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. [00:26:55] Vince Menzione: Very interesting. Allison, uh, what had to change internally to produce these co-selling? We talked a little bit about the field organization and enabling a, a group of, and, you know, account sellers that are very customer focused and enabling them on the co-sell side. What had to change internally to drive that? [00:27:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:27:14] Allison McFadden: I, I might have already alluded to this a little bit in a previous answer, but, um, creating the capacity to develop, build, and sell these solutions, um, inside of a large GSI, where billable hours is kind of the number one metric on the table. Um. Is part of the investment that we had to make within Accenture to get this done? [00:27:36] Audience Member: Yeah, [00:27:36] Allison McFadden: so expert technology time. So we have technologists that understand the elastic technology. We do similar with Nvidia, by the way, we. We released some of their time to go co-develop the solution because it has to hold technical water, right? It can’t just be a marketing pitch. It can’t just be, it has to be a real, um, what’s the there, there. [00:27:59] Allison McFadden: So in order to actually do proper co-sell, we had to release some of that time. Um, to invest in those partnerships. Um, we’ve also done similar with some industry aligned business development leaders recently, so we have freed their time up to go. Uh. Open new conversations, educate client, account teams, go to clients, have conversations. [00:28:26] Allison McFadden: Um, so that, that’s a new motion that we, uh, have just kind of recently made, um, to allow them, I love this brain one, brain two also, right? So to allow them to focus on brain two, because a lot of our time. Typically spent delivery issues, you know, getting my hours, where am I charging my time? And so just freeing up a little of that capacity to do this work, um, helps get us in this brain two mode where we’re not just living to survive. [00:28:56] Vince Menzione: I. So, Matt, you’ve removed a lot. I mean, one of the things I admire, I admire AWS for being first to market and removing the most friction in marketplace of any of the vendors. Really, truly that. You talked about some of the announcements. How does some of, how does some of this tie PC central agents propensity sales plays, MCP, how does some of this tie to how, how you’re thinking about the future? [00:29:18] Vince Menzione: And how to enable more motions like this. [00:29:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. Well, I, I think if you know my boss, UBA Borno, uh, you’ll know that she has a maniacal focus on automation. Yeah. Um, and, uh, co-sell is increasingly automated. You know, you were asking earlier about propensity data. You can get that propensity data in addition to sales plays and, uh, opportunity scores through the partner central agents. [00:29:38] Matt Yanchyshyn: So things that used to require multiple calls to A PDM, if you’re lucky to have one. Yeah. Or a p sm. Uh, you, you can now get through, through these agents, you know, uh, tech Systems, TGS, they, they manage what, over 5,500 customer opportunities with agents that they built on top of our partner Central APIs. [00:29:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and work Span has built a whole product and business that’s right on leveraging, uh, our APIs, our capabilities to sort of tie into your CRM. So, majority of all opportunities will be progressed and managed by agents. This year at AWS, we already have a majority of all customer opportunities, all app have a partner attached and I, I took a personal goal for a majority of those partner attachments, not to happen from a human. [00:30:22] Matt Yanchyshyn: But from our solution matching engine. And how do you get recommended by that solution? Matching engine, having a healthy ACE pipeline, thanks to partner central agents and the integrations you’re doing. And in addition to being the specializations and doing things like multi-product solutions and ultimately closing opportunities, you dream of LAR and so LAR will help that. [00:30:40] Allison McFadden: It’s more like a nightmare. [00:30:41] Vince Menzione: And so, you know, [00:30:42] Allison McFadden: it’s more like a nightmare, but [00:30:44] Vince Menzione: nightmare. Well, it’s, it’s, yeah. Nightmare of Laura and, and. Nice dreams of PRM, but the, um, but that’s the loop, right? I, I think, uh, increasingly co-sell for us, and in my mind, is largely a hundred percent automated. Yeah. Except for what matters most, those most largest, most strategic, most complex deals. [00:31:01] Vince Menzione: Where our highly paid and very skilled salespeople are most effectively used. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: You know, the days of, you know, this person with 20 years experience selling, clicking, progressing opportunities through a pipeline, uh, should be over. Uh, and, and we need those people out, out selling and, and co-selling. And so that for me. [00:31:19] Vince Menzione: Yeah. That, you know, we talk a lot about co-sell, but I, I’m obsessed with automating as much of the co-sell as possible. [00:31:24] Vince Menzione: I remember going back to the ex Excel spreadsheets and, and that, that seems to be be Viva became spreadsheet jockeys. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:32] Vince Menzione: And, and they stopped selling. They forgot how to sell. [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And people spend all this time doing lunch and learns and things like that. [00:31:36] Vince Menzione: And then, you know. Then the salespeople rotate out after 18 months and, and it, that’s, that’s the old days. Uh, you know, the new days are, are AI powered matching algorithms, uh, ag agentic co-sell, using the partner essential agents to get your data and, and putting that data to use automatically and, and what sounded like magic. [00:31:51] Vince Menzione: 12 months ago is being done, you know, by partners at massive scale across thousands of opportunities. You can do it today. And you know, I, there’s a guy named another Mike, right? Mike another Mike who they have, there’s like a guy who’s doing all this and I’m picking on Mike ’cause I, I know their system really well and I know the guy Mike grew easily built it for them. [00:32:08] Vince Menzione: Um, but, you know, I think, yeah, again, in the days of having 10 people sort of doing lunch and learn could be replaced by one or two people, building agents, uh, managing a massive pipeline. And, and that’s the future. [00:32:18] Vince Menzione: Exactly. James, your perspective on what breaks with co-selling? [00:32:22] James Kang: Oh, what breaks co-sell? Um, I would say. [00:32:25] James Kang: It, it starts and finishes with just misalignment and a loss of trust with the customer, especially when you have multiple partners or stakeholders involved. If you’re trying to do a three-way deal with a end customer and you’re not on the same page, you’re not gonna get to a successful outcome on, on the backend. [00:32:44] James Kang: Uh, the fix is a much more complicated story. I would say that to take a step back, um. We’ve talked about the five layer cake. We’ve talked about where NVIDIA kind of fits within the equation. We are invested in the ecosystem and so as different players and application organizations win and see these outcomes for end customers, we celebrate that success. [00:33:07] James Kang: Um, and as part of that kind of ethos of where NVIDIA fits within the ecosystem, we wanna make sure that not only. Our customers, but our partners like ISVs and GSIs are set up for success. Um, we do not as Nvidia sell hardware or GPUs directly to customers We use. Hyperscalers like AWS as kind of our force multiplier. [00:33:31] James Kang: And similarly we think of ISVs and GSIs as the force multipliers in terms of our extensions of how we, we kind of leverage the relationships and build the trust with our end customers. And so going back to kind of the question, Vince, I would say that it all comes back to trust and being able to build that mutual trust. [00:33:48] James Kang: Um, a lot of what we do when we co-sell with AWS is really on the software layer. Um, we actually have more software engineers at NVIDIA than we have hardware engineers, which is a weird thing to say, um, because everyone knows us for our GPUs. But because of that fact, we are heavily invested in Cuda and making sure that Cuda becomes the foundational layer for how not only our ISVs and GSIs, but also our end customers are building. [00:34:12] Vince Menzione: Very cool. So Reiki, you and James together on this production. Versus pilot with the Gentech ai. Tell us a little bit more about that. Where, where are you in the process? [00:34:24] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. So I mean, in general, what we’re seeing out in the market in, in relation to sort of AI and, and customer’s journeys is that, um, at least from an elastic perspective, um, we’re seeing people very much in production when it comes to, you know, kind of AI assistant co-pilot use cases. [00:34:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, you know, things like, um, software development, customer support is a big one. Um, any sort of employee productivity use cases where there’s. Still a human in the loop somewhere. Um, and there’s a very like, clear path to value. And so we see the customers being in production excelling there. Um, no problem. [00:35:01] Rekha Thangellapalli: Where we’re seeing people still kind of in the pilot phase is those fully autonomous workflows where there is no human involved. The agent is reasoning on its own. Um, accessing multiple systems and taking an action on the user’s behalf. And what we’re seeing is that it’s not the intelligence of the agent that’s holding it back. [00:35:26] Rekha Thangellapalli: It’s more about giving the right context to the agent and having the right. Security kind of governance controls in place for the company to feel comfortable in putting these fully autonomous workflows into production. And that’s really the conversation we’re having is all right, what are the controls you need in place? [00:35:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: For you to release this to your business unit. Um, and what is the context that the agent is needed before we can comfortably let the agent make the decision on the user’s behalf? Um, James, I’d be interested to hear what you’re, what you’re seeing in the market [00:36:03] James Kang: plus one on all things context. I, I would even go so far as to say, um. [00:36:09] James Kang: H how many folks in the audience have heard of token maxing? Like this new term? [00:36:13] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:14] James Kang: Um, I’ll, I’ll give a very specific example of, of Uber that went public. With the example of Claude, like they allowed all of their employees to use as many tokens as possible, and within the span of four months, they exhausted their full budget for the year, and so they had to pull back, and now there’s a cap on every employee. [00:36:33] James Kang: I think the number that’s circulating is $1,500 per month per employee, and so I think that is at least. In this multi-phase evolution of where we’re going to be and where we’re today, cost has become kind of the prohibitive force in terms of agentic AI at scale. Um, I think we are working on some very creative solutions in-house and Nvidia. [00:36:55] James Kang: Um. And we saw some really dynamic announcements this week when it comes to all things agent core, um, where we want to focus on very nimble ways for customers to be able to execute and go to market. And one extreme example of that is our investment within our open model strategy. So Nvidia, not only, again, providing GPUs, we actually offer our own op open models, which we call our Nitron models. [00:37:21] James Kang: And through our Nitron models, we are allowing customers to really develop and fine tune their own proprietary models in a cost effective manner. So right alongside the frontier models like OpenAI and Anthropic. It’s not a if then, it’s not an either or statement. It’s a, it’s a permutation, it’s an and So we’re giving you a cost effective alternative to not only bring your AgTech applications at scale by training on Nibo tron, which is open source, but then once you’ve kind of finished and fine tuned that specific training job to be able to. [00:37:53] James Kang: Go ahead and utilize your frontier models, whether it be OpenAI or Claude. And I know there’s other partners here that are providing those kind of different model capabilities. And so I think for us it’s, it’s a matter of choice. We know that this market is dynamic. It’s gonna be evolving over the next coming months as well as the next coming years. [00:38:10] James Kang: Uh, but we believe that we are positioned for a really unique dynamic expansion of AgTech use cases over the, at least the next three to six months. [00:38:20] Vince Menzione: Allison, for the partners in the room who are glazed over right now going, what do I, what do I do over the next 12 months? [00:38:26] Allison McFadden: Should I wake everybody up by saying, yeah, please. [00:38:27] Allison McFadden: Say go hurricanes. [00:38:28] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:38:29] Allison McFadden: Is there anyone, anybody? Everyone’s like, boo. I get to leave the parade today to go home to parade. I live in Raleigh, so we’ve got our parade on Saturday. Nice. [00:38:39] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:38:40] Allison McFadden: All right. Wake up. Um, all right. So for the $50 million partners in the room, um. $50 million is not small. You have something that works. [00:38:50] Allison McFadden: Right. This is great. What I would be thinking about is, you know, we’ve talked about focus before, but really doubling down on, you know, what is, what is your industry, what is your client like, ideal client that you serve. And build, um, almost that kind of community. You know, the, the clients we have move from firm to firm to firm. [00:39:17] Allison McFadden: And if you’ve done good work at one, you’re gonna follow ’em to the next. Um, so build that client demand in a specific place or specific client profile that is just like really knocking it out out of the park for you. Um. Scale with marketplace, right? So if you, I, I love some of the data that you were sharing in your talk earlier, um, because it’s like no overhead scaling mechanism. [00:39:45] Allison McFadden: I mean, it’s, it’s fantastic. Um, Accenture, other GSIs like us, we are investing in marketplace. So we’re investing in resources, um, to help us. Use marketplace more with our clients and we’re gonna capture, right, those storefronts. And if you’re present on marketplace, you’re gonna be able to catch, uh, yourself in that wheel. [00:40:09] Allison McFadden: So I think those are the, the kind of couple of things I would say is focus, focus, focus to drive that client demand and use scaling mechanisms like marketplace to really kind of, uh, accelerate. [00:40:24] Vince Menzione: Matt, anything to add there on the. [00:40:26] Vince Menzione: Well just, you know, Ja, James, you, I love the token maxing reference in Uber and it reminds me, you remember when cloud came out and everyone was like, oh, all these people are, are gonna use the cloud and costs are outta control and. [00:40:39] Vince Menzione: Um, a lot of people pulled back from the cloud and, and a lot of those companies no longer exist. And it’s similar with, with, uh, token maxing, like, oh, these agents are outta control. You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to agent to co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:40:58] Vince Menzione: And, and that’s, that’s where we’re at. Uh, is, is the, the companies sitting here today embraced the cloud years ago and won. Uh, and and there’s a set of companies here today who are gonna embrace agents in the, for both buyers and sellers, and will win. And there are those who won’t and they won’t win. And so for me, it’s like we’re, we’re at a, we’re at a crossroads. [00:41:18] Vince Menzione: And, and if you’re gonna win, you gotta leap into that, you know? I love it. And, uh, and, and, and it’s, it means the cost of experimentation is so much lower now. Development and, and even business development or software development is, is agent enabled. And so you can take risks, you can experiment and, and you have to, it’s, it’s an existential moment. [00:41:37] Vince Menzione: Agreed. We’ve got a couple minutes left over for any questions. What do you think? Sure. Are there any here. I think there are a couple. Yeah, we’ve got, we’ve got a co-sell question I’m sure coming up here. [00:41:51] Audience Member: Um, I’m Cassandra, I’m the CEO of Partner Tap. And one of the questions I had was, I think, you know, the co-selling between the sellers is where things get. Really, really hard when you’re multi-partner. And so when I was listening, um, with, you know, the Accenture and Elastic together, you talked about how you had, you, you had to get these BD business development people. [00:42:22] Audience Member: Um, is this a new team that is over the client team? And how do these teams interact like with the elastic sellers? Are you doing a lot of coaching to the field and then with if AWS sellers are, are involved, like what is that whole picture? What does look like, [00:42:43] Allison McFadden: like [00:42:44] Audience Member: on the ground? I mean, that is the hardest part, I think, and that’s what we hear. [00:42:48] Allison McFadden: It’s so, it’s so, it’s so tough. Um, and I will, I’ll just say, so our business development leaders that we now have kind of. Expanded their capacity. They have always been, they have always been there. Um, but they have not been well resourced. They haven’t, they haven’t had very clear kind of job description. [00:43:12] Allison McFadden: I’m gonna say I, in the past they have been kind of focused on partner relationship. And so like more like an alliance manager and maybe working on some of the data. Right? So when I say I have nightmares about Lars, because we’re always trying to increase the LAR for Accenture and, and they were focused like in those detailed weeds of like trying to pass ACE and trying to call the PDM and all this stuff. [00:43:39] Allison McFadden: What we are doing is really pivoting them to be proper sales, business development focused on client outcomes and focused on. Technical skills to be able to describe what this solution is to the field. So, um, and because we need, I have many, many questions about, I gotta get agents to work with Eurogen co-sell so that that part somehow goes away. [00:44:05] Allison McFadden: So that’s a, that’s the thing we gotta solve still, but, um, so we’re pivoting them to be kind of driving. More of that co-sell enablement with the field, um, and taking that message to the field rather than being there, waiting for questions to come in from the field, waiting for like our field teams to discover, oh, I saw something that we’re doing with Elastic, like on a press release on LinkedIn. [00:44:30] Allison McFadden: Right. So we’re kind of trying to pivot them to be more proactive. [00:44:33] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:44:34] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. And uh, Cassandra, that’s an excellent question because I think. Multi-party, you know, sort of tri-party offerings. The hardest part is operationalizing it at scale, right? Yeah. And so for this particular offering, we are basically having three routes to market. [00:44:51] Rekha Thangellapalli: So one is seeing how this offering fits into our existing elastic go to market. And so I am constantly enabling our field sellers to say, okay, within our three field sales place, here’s exactly where this fits in. Here are, you know, uh. Keywords that you hear in customer conversations where you bring up this offering and here’s a process of how it works. [00:45:14] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, exactly At what sales stage do I bring in Accenture, how, you know, what are the roles and expectations? Right? So that’s on the elastic side. We’re doing the same thing on the Accenture side. So we’re doing a ton of training enablement and lunch and learns, and we’re also looking at how do we fit into. [00:45:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, Accenture’s AI transformation projects, we are the semantic layer, right, of their enterprise brain. And so it’s a whole different sales motion, um, and, you know, having the right assets, having the right process again to make sure that that goes smoothly. And then finally, we’re going directly to the customer. [00:45:49] Rekha Thangellapalli: So we are launching multiple external campaigns where, you know, if the customer raises their hand. We will, we will line up immediately. Right. Um, and so, [00:46:01] Allison McFadden: I mean, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t say how important that third leg of the stool is. ’cause the second part, she talked about getting into our catalog is the first thing. [00:46:09] Allison McFadden: ’cause my BU business development leaders have the catalog. Right. And that’s what they’re selling. So what Elastic has done has gotten into one of those offerings and then. If we have a customer that asks for it, that is the fastest way to alignment. That is like the number one thing that we respond to [00:46:26] Vince Menzione: customer at the center. [00:46:27] Vince Menzione: This is great. Well, I think we’re up to time. This was a great session. I want to thank you. This is what a great, what a great group. [00:46:34] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. Subscribe where [00:46:43] Vince Menzione: you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. [00:46:47] Vince Menzione: For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything [00:47:09] I.

Adam is going solo this week in the midst of some busy weeks for the boys. He talks about all that has been going on in life lately including: Field of Dreams game, his summer golf game and video series', wanting to go to all the events, an exhausting youth trip, and this week's perfect song. In the meat, Mm!, Adam shares what he believes are the 10 best Midwest vacations. Some he has experienced and some he is going on friend's words. See if you agree! The show closes with hopes of 90s icons joining the show in the future. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

What if our obsession with “dangerous” sun is killing us?If you (recklessly) leave your urban office for lunch, you are told to yank your hat down low. If you (again, recklessly) let your kids dash into the backyard, you are told to slather them in sunscreen—or learn to live with the guilt.And yes, sun avoidance undoubtedly prevents some skin cancers, including the deadliest type, melanomaBut a recent study suggests sunlight contributes to hundreds of thousands of deaths every year in the United States alone—orders of magnitude more than the estimated 8400 annual US melanoma deaths.In this episode, we discuss evidence linking sun avoidance toalmost a million annual deaths in the US and Europe alone, exceeding the number caused by global military conflictsbreast, pancreatic, colon, and lung cancers, as well as heart disease, high blood pressure, and stroketo INCREASED risk of death in those diagnosed with sun-induced melanoma.Yes, you read that right; some melanoma deaths may be related to too little sunlight.  (But do understand that this is complex--sunlight DOES cause melanoma. Well, some melanomas....)We also discuss why supplementing with vitamin D pills fails to remedy these terrible conditions, and what a thoughtful person can do instead, while staying safe.We hope you enjoy this episode, and that it helps you enjoy the sun again--thoughtfully, of course. References and further reading:  Sunlight: Time for a Rethink?Benefits of oral Polypodium leucotomas extract in MM high risk patients (This is an ingredient in Life Extension's Shade Factor, mentioned in this episode by Dr. Gordon). Uses of Polypodium leucotomos Extract in Oncodermatology  Calzari et alInsufficient Sun Exposure Has Become a Real Public Health Problem. Alfredsson L, Armstrong BK, Butterfield DA, et al. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. 2020;17(14):E5014. doi:10.3390/ijerph17145014.Prospective Study of Ultraviolet Radiation Exposure and Risk of Cancer in the United States. Lin SW, Wheeler DC, Park Y, et al. International Journal of Cancer. 2012;131(6):E1015-23. doi:10.1002/ijc.27619.An Estimate of Premature Cancer Mortality in the U.S. Due to Inadequate Doses of Solar Ultraviolet-B Radiation. Grant WB. Cancer. 2002;94(6):1867-75. doi:10.1002/cncr.10427.Solar Ultraviolet-B Exposure and Cancer Incidence and Mortality in the United States, 1993-2002. Boscoe FP, Schymura MJ. BMC Cancer. 2006;6:264. doi:10.1186/1471-2407-6-264.Ecological Studies of the UVB-vitamin D-Cancer Hypothesis. Grant WB. Anticancer Research. 2012;32(1):223-36.Sunlight Exposure in Association With Risk of Lymphoid Malignancy: A Meta-Analysis of Observational Studies. Kim HB, Kim JH. Cancer Causes & Control : CCC. 2021;32(5):441-457. doi:10.1007/s10552-021-01404-6.Adulthood Residential Ultraviolet Radiation, Sun Sensitivity, Dietary Vitamin D, and Risk of Lymphoid Malignancies in the California Teachers Study. Chang ET, Canchola AJ, Cockburn M, et al. Blood. 2011;118(6):1591-9. doi:10.1182/blood-2011-02-336065.Is Prevention of Cancer by Sun Exposure More Than Just the Effect of Vitamin D? A Systematic Review of Epidemiological Studies. van der Rhee H, Coebergh JW, de Vries E. European Journal of Cancer (Oxford, England : 1990). 2013;49(6):1422-36. doi:10.1016/j.ejca.2012.11.001.An Ecologic Study of Cancer Mortality Rates in Spain With Respect to Indices of Solar UVB Irradiance and Smoking. Grant WB. International Journal of Cancer. 2007;120(5):1123-8. doi:10.1002/ijc.22386.Does Sunlight Prevent Cancer? A Systematic Review. van der Rhee HJ, de Vries E, Coebergh JW. European Journal of Cancer (Oxford, England : 1990). 2006;42(14):2222-32. doi:10.1016/j.ejca.2006.02.024.Heliovaccination: Solar mediated immunity against cancer. Uzoigwe CE. Experimental Dermatology. 2020;29(5):477-480. doi:10.1111/exd.14087.Beneficial Health Effects of Ultraviolet Radiation: Expert Review and Conference Report. Riedmann U, Dibben C, de Gruijl FR, et al. Photochemical & Photobiological Sciences : Official Journal of the European Photochemistry Association and the European Society for Photobiology. 2025;24(6):867-893. doi:10.1007/s43630-025-00743-6.A Blueprint for the Primary Prevention of Cancer: Targeting Established, Modifiable Risk Factors. Gapstur SM, Drope JM, Jacobs EJ, et al. CA: A Cancer Journal for Clinicians. 2018;68(6):446-470. doi:10.3322/caac.21496.Proportion and Number of Cancer Cases and Deaths Attributable to Potentially Modifiable Risk Factors in the United States, 2019. Islami F, Marlow EC, Thomson B, et al. CA: A Cancer Journal for Clinicians. 2024 Sep-Oct;74(5):405-432. doi:10.3322/caac.21858.Cutaneous Melanoma. Joshi UM, Kashani-Sabet M, Kirkwood JM. JAMA. 2025;334(23):2113-2125. doi:10.1001/jama.2025.13074.Sunlight, Vitamin D and the Prevention of Cancer: A Systematic Review of Epidemiological Studies. van der Rhee H, Coebergh JW, de Vries E. European Journal of Cancer Prevention : The Official Journal of the European Cancer Prevention Organisation (ECP). 2009;18(6):458-75. doi:10.1097/CEJ.0b013e32832f9bb1.Lessons Learned From Paleolithic Models and Evolution for Human Health: A Snap Shot on Beneficial Effects and Risks of Solar Radiation. Reichrath J. Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology. 2020;1268:3-15. doi:10.1007/978-3-030-46227-7_1.PS-Vitamin D. American Academy of Dermatology (2022).American Cancer Society Guidelines on Nutrition and Physical Activity for Cancer Prevention: Reducing the Risk of Cancer With Healthy Food Choices and Physical Activity. Kushi LH, Byers T, Doyle C, et al. CA: A Cancer Journal for Clinicians. 2006;56(5):254-81; quiz 313-4. doi:10.3322/canjclin.56.5.254.Vitamin D, Sunlight and Cancer Connection. Holick MF. Anti-Cancer Agents in Medicinal Chemistry. 2013;13(1):70-82.Survivorship. National Comprehensive Cancer Network. Updated 2026-04-08.Keratinocyte Carcinoma. Wehner MR. JAMA. 2025;:2840731. doi:10.1001/jama.2025.18749.Public Awareness and Behaviour in Great Britain in the Context of Sunlight Exposure and Vitamin D: Results From the First Large-Scale and Representative Survey. Burchell K, Rhodes LE, Webb AR. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. 2020;17(18):E6924. doi:10.3390/ijerph17186924.Behavioral Counseling to Prevent Skin Cancer: US Preventive Services Task Force Recommendation Statement. US Preventive Services Task Force, Grossman DC, Curry SJ, et al. JAMA. 2018;319(11):1134-1142. doi:10.1001/jama.2018.1623.Lifetime Sunburn Trajectories and Associated Risks of Cutaneous Melanoma and Squamous Cell Carcinoma Among a Cohort of Norwegian Women. Lergenmuller S, Rueegg CS, Perrier F, et al. JAMA Dermatology. 2022;158(12):1367-1377. doi:10.1001/jamadermatol.2022.4053.Cancer Prevention and Early Detection Facts & Figures. Rick Alteri, Deana Baptiste, Emily Butler Bell, et al. American Cancer Society (2025). Skin Cancer, Irradiation, and Sunspots: The Solar Cycle Effect. Valachovic E, Zurbenko I. BioMed Research International. 2014;2014:538574. doi:10.1155/2014/538574.Intense Solar Activity Reduces UrinarDawn Lemanne, MD Oregon Integrative OncologyLeave no stone unturned.Deborah Gordon, MDNorthwest Wellness and Memory CenterBuilding Healthy Brains

On the #amwriting podcast's Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Caroline Bicks, Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine and co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, about her book Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Bicks describes how she became the first invited into King's Bangor archives after King called to meet her, and how her sabbatical became a year of researching five formative works (including Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem's Lot, and Pet Sematary) to understand how horror language creates lasting fear. She explains choosing a first-person narrative that blends literary criticism, archival discovery, and her own anxiety, including eerie moments in the archive and insights into King's word-level edits, literary influences, and Shakespearean foundations, especially The Shining's ties to Hamlet.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Read the Book* Monsters in the Archives by Caroline BicksTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Welcome, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we're talking about the big decisions writers face in their work and creative lives.I'm here today with a super special guest. I'm so excited to speak with Caroline Bicks. She is the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine, where she teaches courses in Shakespeare, early modern culture, and horror fiction. And she's the author of all kinds of very cool books ... about Shakespeare, including one on cocktails.Um, and, uh, is the co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, and we are here today to talk with her about her new book called [00:01:00] Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Welcome.Caroline: Thank you. Thanks for having me.Jennie: So this is gonna be the strangest interview you've probably ever done. ICaroline: don't know.Because- I've talked to a lot of people around the world about this Stephen King book.Jennie: I couldn't read your book. I, I couldn't read it. I can't read horror. Yeah. Which listeners of this podcast are gonna laugh about, ‘cause I'm actually coaching someone live and they're writing gothic horror, and they're probably like, “All you talk about is horror, Jennie.”But, um, it's actually the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because you made a decision in the writing of this book that I thought was super cool. Mm. Which was you put yourself in it.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And you're a scholar.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And you've written scholarly books, and you approach this with a scholarly perspective, but you, you really put yourself in it.And, and so [00:02:00] I was reading it for that part of the story and I had to skip over huge chunks of, of the, of the work. Because what you're doing in this book is you're getting at this question of- W- what, what is scary in writing? Like, how does it actually work? How does it act- what is the magic or the function that makes us feel this thing?And you actually feel it yourself while you're going through it, and I found it quite terrifying actually. So, um, that's kinda what I wanted to talk about is how did you make the decision? Well, first of all, you were the first person, I wanna make sure I get this right, ‘cause this is very cool. Yeah. You were the first person who was invited to the archives, the Stephen King archives.Caroline: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a bit of a story, so I won't spend too much time on it, but just the mo- Oh, no, do. It's good ... when I ch- when I took this position... So I've been a Shakespeare professor my whole adult life, ba- as soon as I graduated from grad school in the late ‘90s, [00:03:00] and I was at Boston College for 15 years.I took this position at University of Maine nine years ago as a Shakespearean. Um, so it is an endowed chair in Stephen King's name because he's our most famous alum. So when I took the position, I, it was because I'm a Shakespearean, not because I'm a horror specialist. Um, I had always been a Stephen King fan since I read him when I was 12, and he scared the beje- Jesus out of me, um, with The Boogeyman story.Jennie: Right.Caroline: Um, so when I took this position though I was told, “You're never gonna meet Stephen King. Don't even make contact with him.” I'm like, “Fine, you know, this is still a great job. I'm excited.” Um- ThanksJennie: for the money. Yeah.Caroline: Thanks for... You know, no, it's a wonderful fund. It was funded by the Harold Alfond Foundation, and it's to support the public humanities, which is an incredible mission.So, um, I get to give money away to people. You know, it's a great, great position, but I was not a horror specialist. And particu- a- and as an adult, I actually wasn't reading horror because it scares me too much. You know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but it had grabbed me when I was a teenager. So it was about four years into the [00:04:00] job when I got a call at home from Stephen King, which just, uh, uh, my jaw hit the floor.And he said, “You know, I think it's time we meet.” I'm like, you know, I, I really fan-girled because I really, I have so much admiration for him and respect. Um, I invited him to come talk to our students. He was brilliant, generous, funny, kind, and I felt so at ease that I felt like I could ask... You know, and I got to know him professionally.We had a good professional relationship that developed from there. When I had a sabbatical year coming up the next year- I could have written another Shakespeare book. I had another one in my head. I've written a bunch of them but I knew that he and Tabitha had just collected all of his manuscripts and put them in a climate-controlled space attached to their home in Bangor, and I thought, “You know, this is an incredible opportunity.I would love to dig in there and be the first one in there, and just read those early drafts of the books that scared me so much when I was a teenager, and try to just explore why. Why were they sticking in my head still?” Um, again, I am not a specialist in... I'm not a cognitive scientist. I'm not a [00:05:00] specialist in horror literature, but I'm obviously highly trained in how to do literary analysis and how to do archival work, not Shakespeare, because we don't have any of his works, but, you know, I, I understand what that process is.So back to your question about why I wanted to bring myself into it, which was, you know, I had been experimenting with first-person storytelling after I got tenure. You know, ‘cause it's a long process, Kate. Right. And most of my writing had been academic writing, but I really had always loved storytelling And I got a piece into the Modern Love column.I started to have some success with publishing my first-person stories, and I was like, “You know, I love this.” So when I had this opportunity to go into his archives, they generously said yes, was amazing. I thought, “You know, I really wanna tell this story. I don't wanna write an academic book. I want this to be the story of a literature scholar, but really the story about a scared kid.”Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: You know, you, you never lose that scare, you know, I don't... This is the thing. Fear has stuck with me with those stories [00:06:00] for 40 years. So I was fascinated, and I just wanted to understand how he had crafted the language so that it was sticking in my head still. Because when I was talking to people around, you know, whenever you mention Stephen King to people, you know, if they've read him, they remember specific lines and specific words, and I was like, “That's an extraordinary, um, 50 years on to have that power.”So, um- Well- Anyway. Yeah. Go ahead. I, I could talk about this forever, so you tell me- Oh, no, it's- ... where you wanted to pick up from this.Jennie: It's so good. Well, I have to tell you this funny anecdote, which is that my college roommate was from Bangor, Maine, and babysat his kids in that house.Caroline: Oh, that's insane.Jennie: So when I went to visit her, she drove me by that house.There you go. And I was like, “Oh, hell no- Yeah ... would I ever babysit in that house.” Like, it's-Caroline: It's ‘cause it's like a gothic, it's like straight out of Haunting of Hill House ...Jennie: actually, and like these spiderweb gates that, and you describe that in the [00:07:00] book and, and the- Yeah ... archives are in that house. They'reCaroline: in the house.They're attached to the back. I know. And it, it was so, it was, it was insane. It was like a full-on 360 experience writing this book. Um, and I, I knew, like, so I did the research for a year. I didn't even know if this would be a book. I just knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in there because it, I knew it was a great opportunity, and I was so curious, you know?Yeah. So I, I came out of the year with just tons of notes and observations, but I didn't have a book, you know? Yeah. And then I started experimenting with writing a chapter, and I just, the storytelling just came forward and then when I got an agent and she, you know, s- I, I, I was able to get a contract based on a proposal and that one chapter I had written and I was really fortunate to have a fabulous editor, David Ebershoff, at Hogarth, who is just such a wonderful writer himself, and he really encouraged me to bring my voice in and bring my story in even [00:08:00] more.Um, so that's- And- ... that's the story of that.Jennie: Was it hard for you as a scholar to do that?Caroline: You know what? It was so freeing and so fun that it actually wasn't, you know? Because I, I knew this wasn't going to be an academic book, so once I let go of that- Yeah ... um, I was like, wow, I have the, and yet I have this skill set I can bring forward, and I knew that's what would make this unique.Um, but I can combine my two favorite ways of writing, ‘cause I do actually love writing literary criticism. Like it's, I get a thrill out of it. I wouldn't be doing it this long if I didn't get a thrill out of it, but I also love telling my own stories and drawing a reader in. And so for me it was like just a circus carnival.Like it was so fun to be able to do it. Once I had the permission and I had a contract, I was like, fine, you know? I, I, who am I writing this book for? I'm writing it for me, you know? Like this is just something I wanna do because I'm so passionate [00:09:00] about it and I, and I love Stephen King. And, um, once I got into it that way and wasn't thinking about who's gonna criticize me for this, like how will academics view this, I was like, I don't care.I just don't care. I know I've got a great story to tell that people are gonna love to read because there's so many people that love not just Stephen King, but people who love reading about how great books get written, you know? Yeah. And so that was the audience I had in my mind when I, when I was crafting it.It was really, in my mind, anybody who cares about books and writing. It doesn't have to be... So when you say, you're not the first person who's said to me, “I can't read your book,” or, “I can't read-” Oh, I'm so glad. “... Stephen King books,” you know, and I'm like, “That's okay. You can skip, you know, the parts that really scare you,” because there's plenty about just like that first chapter I wrote about Pet Sematary, just his sticky notes back and forth with his copy editor, which is so fun I think.You know, it's just like, wow.Jennie: Totally. Yeah. But the thing that you do is you- Allow yourself to confront that fear-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: [00:10:00] that, that I feel that the people can't, that can't read horror feel. You know, anybody that even allows themselves to be scared feels. And-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: and you, you do some very specific things, um, which I, I found fascinating, including tracking down on eBay the original copy of that book you read as a- Yeah, I wanted-as a teenager.Caroline: Yeah, that was part of the process for me, was I wanted to make sure I was reading... So before I would go into the archives for each work, and I'd spent like two... I only picked five, because I wanted to... First of all, I knew I wanted to make this personal. Um, and those were the five that scared me the most when I was a teenager.So I grew up in the ‘70s and the ‘80s as a teenager, so for me, it was in real time when the books were coming out practically. So it was- Yeah ... Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem's Lot, Pet Sematary. Um, I'm forgetting one of course. Uh, but I went -Jennie: The other one.Caroline: The other one. Had a huge impact on me. [00:11:00] So it was those five, and I, I knew those were the ones I was gonna do a deep dive into, and that I wanted to really re-engage with, and bring my whole self to.So I wanted to find the copies that I had read in the ‘70s and the early ‘80s. And fortunately, it's pretty easy to find them. Uh, so yeah, but eBay sometimes I had to go on, or go into a used bookstore and, you know, find the like actual 1979 paperback, you know.Jennie: Um- I mean, that- Um ... I just, there's some, there's so much to say about that because-Caroline: YeahJennie: like, I just, um- We, we just had a new bookcase built, um, which is something I've wanted to do well for eight years in this house. But it's a thing I've always wanted to have, which is like a grand bookcase, and it just was finished last week, and we had all the books packed up in storage, and we brought all the books back.Then we went through this discernment process of what goes [00:12:00] on those shelves. And I, you know, I had all those books from when I was a kid, even when I was a kid-kid, and they're yellow, and moldy and falling apart, and the covers aren't on, and they're taped and-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: eh, but I cannot let them go-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: because those...that was the object.Caroline: That's the object. This is what I feel sad for kids now, because they're not gonna have those same memories, um, of books. Yes. You know? And I don't think they stick in your head the same way if you don't have the full sensory embodied experience with a book.Jennie: Right. You know? Even when you open...I read on Kindle, which I love for so many reasons. Yeah. But you don't even see the cover.Caroline: You don't see the cover, right. And for me, it's so much. Like, I remember going to the Scholastic Book Fair and being like- Yes ... “I'm getting Summer of My German S- Soldier because Christy McNichol's on the cover,” you know?Yes. Yes. So yeah, that was part of the journey for me was I did wanna just [00:13:00] reconnect with those books again, try to h- and as much as you can, you know, reexperience the feelings of f- like The Shining, I actually... the only one I still have from 1977 is the actual Shining that I read. Um, and that's, for me, that woman in room 217.Well, I know you haven't read it ‘cause you're probably... What? But, um, it, that particular one I still have from, from when I was growing up. Um, and I love that I still have it, and it still has the photo... You know, it's the version that has the photo inserts that includes the Kubrick film photos. Oh, okay.Jennie: Okay.Yeah, yeah.Caroline: And I read it before I saw the film, so I remember being- 15 reading it and then seeing the pictures and being like you know? And that's part of the experience, but it wasn't, it's different than seeing the film, you know? And I really, I wanted to write this book as a love letter to language and to books, and not to film.Like, there's, that's a whole other category I think that enters people's brains in totally different ways. It's a very different experience. For me it's about, like going back to your original question [00:14:00] about like why, why, why do stories cause fear, and like what's the value perhaps in that? Yeah. That was something I came to after this long journey really, and talking to people and thinking about why.And also by understanding and reading more about Stephen King's books and talking to him about them, and realizing for him how much these stories are rooted in personal experiences or fears of grief and loss. And- Yes ... that was really profound for me. And like The Night Shift, which is the ur-text that I start with, ‘cause that's the one I read when I was 12, and that's his first collection of short stories.It came out in 1978. It's 20 short stories. But he ends it with a story about his mother dying, and it's, I mean, it's thinly veiled autobiography. It's about a man who's watching his mother die in the hospital. Um, but it's clearly a mirror of his own experience losing his mother when he was 26. And I'm like, wow, what's that doing in a collection of horror stories?[00:15:00] And it's like, what? ‘Cause that is of course, at least for me and I think for a lot of people, that's the core fear we first have, is that where's mommy, right? Yeah. Right? You lose the person who's in charge of taking care of you, and if you're lucky, does it well and with care. Um, but even if it's not, like Carrie, you know, the more I was looking through the Carrie drafts, I was like, right, he's really homing in on Carrie calling out for her mother even though her mother's terrible and abusive to her, right?So it's, there's just this, I don't know. It's a long way around to say I think horror, and he writes about this really eloquently, is a way for us to metabolize our deepest fears. Um, and to look at trauma not head-on but sideways. Um, and he writes about that, um, a number of different places in a really powerful way.He's just such an extraordinary human. You know, he's been thinking about this and for so long.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so your willingness to [00:16:00] confront that, those particular fear, fears in your own self and on behalf of the reader, really puts you in it. I mean, like you, there's a really lovely moment where you are reading I think it's, I think it's Pet Sematary, reading the actual book, and you have to turn it over so you- Yeahdon't see, like on your nightstand so you don't see the cover. I'mCaroline: scared, I'm scared of the cover, right, still.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And then there's moments, se- several where you're driving And you're sort of holding your breath while you drive past a place that he writes about or, or- Mm-hmm ... you know, um, well you have to tell the story, I'm sure every interviewer asks you about the, um, the doorknob in the archive.You have to, like, I was-Caroline: Yeah, not too many people have asked me about that, but I'm like, that to me was the scary moment-Jennie: Wait, shut up ... the most, theCaroline: most sturdy. I'm like, wh- uh, why did that happen? But of course, I mean, there's a reason why it happened. It's, it's, it [00:17:00] automatically locks if, you know, the, if you- Okaydon't lock it So let's, let's play- So but it just happened that we were inside the archive room. It was me and, and Julie Ugli, who is their assistant, who was helping me through this whole process. And I know, and I was, like, literally holding the first page of the first draft of The Boogeyman, the story that had scared me so badly when I was 12, about a monster that comes out of closets, and we're like in this room.And the, the archive room, it actually, it almost feels like a closet. It's not huge at all. You know, it's just-Jennie: Yeah ...Caroline: top to bottom, ceiling to floor stacked shelving with, you know, boxes of materials. And yeah, and we were in there, and I'm holding the first page, and the lock closes on its own. It just goes...And I'm like, I'm looking at Julie, I'm like, “What is, what's happening?” We don't have our cell phones with us. I'm like, “Are we stuck in here? Like, what's gonna happen?”Jennie: In the scary archive- In this, I was terrified ... in the back of the scary house. Like-Caroline: I know, I know. It was like, you can't make this stuff up.That's why I was like, I [00:18:00] couldn't wait, when I finally got a chance to write the book and sit down and write, I was like, I can't wait to tell these stories, because they just... I, I'm not a fiction writer. Like, I, I have such mad respect for- I don't know about that ... well, I've m- We'll see I don't know. I have mad respect for people who can write fiction.For me, I only can write what I know and exper- So I'm like, ah. But these stories were just so amazing. Or like when I was reading The Shining, like the first draft of The Shining, which is crazy. I mean, it's so different from the published version. And like getting to the woman in room 217, and like reading th- and literally my head w- like I thought I was having a stroke.Like it was like, like... And it's like, and then I find an interview where Stephen King writes about how he was scared to go back to that scene when he was revising it, the book, because he was dreading it. And I was like, oh, my God, have I just like had some kind of telepathic experience with Stephen King?Like- Right ... across time, space, and yeah, it was amazing.Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, [00:19:00] it's just, um, uh, I actually made myself go through the whole book skipping giant chunks.Caroline: I feel so badly I put you through this.Jennie: I know. I, I feel like why, I kept saying, “Why? Why did I think this was a good idea?” Um, and it- I mean, even just tangentially, I, I don't know.It's interesting. I have, I'm sure you have this too, anybody who reads a lot or spends a lot of time with words, you have a capacity to sort of pay half attention, if that makes sense.Caroline: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, like you c- could sort of look at it without letting it all the way in. Yeah. But I, I just was, I just was riveted by the thread of, of your story and your putting yourself through that as a scholar and a human.But, but then some really cool things happen, and I, and I have flagged, um... Do you, [00:20:00] w- would you mind reading a tiny piece? It's- No, not at all ... it's on page 82, and it's the p- the paragraph that starts, “These manuscripts.”Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: That would be amazing.Caroline: Absolutely. So this is actually the moment I just described to you, where my head was like, I got...Oh, actually, I had just discovered the last 150 pages of the original Shining manuscript in a random folder in the archives, and I was like, “What is this doing here?” And I was getting obsessive about the manuscripts at this point, clearly- Yeah. Yeah ... just like the main character in The Shining, Jack Torrance, who gets obsessed with the manu- with the papers in the basement of the Overlook Hotel.But here we go. “These manuscripts are definitely getting into my head, and not just its rational part. In his memoir, when King describes books as being a uniquely portable magic, he doesn't specify what kind of magic. What if manuscripts can absorb and store more than just ink and words? [00:21:00] What if their pages can pass on dark energy along with dark stories?Ghosts have more than one way of making sure their stories are heard, of ensuring that the past is not forgotten, but rather pressed into our minds, even if we wrench our heads off the pillow and refuse to listen.” And that last is a reference to my, I used to see a ghost when I was five, and I write about that in the book too.Jennie: I mean, when I read that, I was like, “That's, that's me.” Like, these ghosts and horrors are pressing themselves into my mind, and I'm refusing to listen, and they still, they still do. And, um, King's stories in particular are so iconic, you can't really escape them. Like, you, you know the scenarios, you know the characters, you know-Caroline: YeahJennie: you know. And, and so it was interesting for me reading this book that that described my [00:22:00] experience where I was both repelled and magnetized at the same time.Caroline: That's beautiful the way you just put that. I mean, I think that is exactly our relationship also, of course, to our own fears. You know, again, what makes these stories endure, and I didn't go into this book thinking like, “This is a book about promoting Stephen King,” and, you know- Rightlike, I don't work for Stephen King. I just want to put that out there. Right. He, you know, he graciously agreed to let me go into the archives. He's been very generous about answering all my questions I had about the manuscripts, but he never at any point was like, “You can't say this,” or, “This is how you're supposed to say this.”So, but what I came away with after this process was exactly what you're describing, why we need these stories, why they endure, actually, is because they tap into our very real human fears. It's not about the monsters. It's about the grief and loss that's coming for all of us if we live long enough, you know?So you, and you have to at some point confront that, you know? So if it's- Yeah ... you can [00:23:00] try to run away from it, but it's coming, and that's part of being human. That's the human experience, obviously. Not to be glib, but it's like-Jennie: Yeah ...Caroline: you will experience loss. You will experience grief. And if these stories help you metabolize that or have a cathartic experience with that feeling without having to actually experience your worst fear, right?Um, like Aristotle says, it's cathartic, right? It's you watch a play, a, a tragedy because you experience a catharsis.Jennie: And did you, did you get to that in your own process?Caroline: That's a really good question. Um- You know, I, I think I became more aware of it. You know, I am, you know, and I write about this very openly in the book, that I was an extremely anxious little kid, um, which is part of why I think the boogeyman triggered me in the particular way it did, you know.Um, and that I grew into a pretty [00:24:00] anxious adult, you know? Yeah. I think anxiety is one of those things that, you know, I... Again, I was born in the ‘60s, so we didn't have this language for this back then. Like, my parents wouldn't have known to call me an anxious child, you know? Right. They probably would've said, “Oh, she's shy,” or, “She's whatever.”Um, so I think I, you know, like, and I as an adult, I think I've, I've found ways to manage it pretty well, but I am definitely a control freak. Like, that's part of how I manage it. I shouldn't use that language, but you know, it's like I, I like to just control what I can control, and that makes me feel that I can put the anxiety at bay.So I will say I think it's been interesting for me, Nick, now when I have those moments that are my worst fear moments that sometimes still will creep up on me just even though when I think I've figured it out, like doom s- doom scenarios. I tend to go to doom scenarios. So, like, if I can't reach... Uh, I will say Life360 has been, like, the best invention on the planet for me-with my two kids [00:25:00] and my husband. I'm like, “I know exactly where everyone is.” Yeah. It has saved me a lot of worry. Sometimes Life360 doesn't work, or sometimes a person still doesn't answer the phone, and then I have to manage my anxie- And then it's like... So I will say it's been interesting going through this process and having to confront or revisit the core of what scares me and, like, why that impacts, you know, why certain moments come forward for me still.So I think, yeah, I think it has helped me to a degree. Like, I can recognize it more clearly now. I'm like, “Oh, right, that's why I'm scared of that,” you know? Um-Jennie: That's so cool.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And it feels like that's the, the, um, the transformation in the book is you're exploring how that actually works and the language and the stories.Mm-hmm. But you're, you're also exploring how it works in your own self, how it did when you were young, how it does now- Yeah ... these moments when you're scared. So it- Mm-hmm ... there's such [00:26:00] a depth to it and, I mean, I just, uh, even in my half reading of it, I just loved it. Thank you. And, um, there's something that happens That's kind of crazy, which is, so you're a Shakespeare scholarCaroline: Mm-hmmJennie: And I ha- I, I know from reading Steve, a- about Stephen King, from reading his book On Writing, of course, and, um, interviews and such that, uh, I'm, I'm probably gonna say this in a disrespectful way, and I don't mean it to be so, but the, the easiest way I can describe it is that he's always had sort of a chip on his shoulder that he's just a popular writer and not taken seriously in a literary way.Mm. I don't know if that's, if that is fair to say, but that's how I'm saying it. Uh,Caroline: yeah.Jennie: And, um, what, what I found incredible was that [00:27:00] here comes this Shakespeare scholar into his archives doing proper scholarly archiver, arch- archival work, and there's this moment when you begin to see Shakespearean themes in his, in his work, and you can't ignore it, and particularly in, in Carrie and- Yeahparticularly around exactly the thing you were wrestling with, which is like a young girl's- I don't know, sense of, of not being fitting in the world or, um-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: right? And so that, um, there's, on page, since you have the book in your hand, um, I think it's pageCaroline: 202. Mm-hmm.Jennie: And it refers back to that passage you just read about portable magic.It's the one that's I remembered.Caroline: [00:28:00] Right. Okay. So this is going back to when I first was, um, I was in the final round of the job for the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature, and I was working on a book about Shakespeare's, the girls in Shakespeare's plays and world and teenage girls and their cognition.Like, the how were people during Shakespeare's day thinking about girls' brains? Yeah. So I'd been working on this for 10 years. Um, and then I was getting ready to give my job talk. This was the first time Stephen King and Shakespeare came together for me, and it was getting ready, and this, again, this is an authentic story, like write what you know.So I was getting ready for the job talk. I remembered that King's 1974 novel, Carrie, featured a 16-year-old girl whose telekinetic powers are unleashed when she gets her first period in the school shower. I started rereading it, and within a few pages came across an uncanny phrase. When she's walking home after being dismissed early, Carrie feels her brain flexing in a new way, [00:29:00] as if her powers have been waiting below the surface for her to reach, quote, “mental puberty.”I couldn't have wordsmithed this dynamic cognitive change better myself. In the last part of my job talk, I used the phrase to connect the brain work of Juliet Capulet, who's described as being two weeks away from seeing the change of 14 years, to Carrie's newly activated adolescent mind. It felt like a moment of pure portable magic between Stephen King, Shakespeare, and me.Jennie: Ugh, so beautiful.Caroline: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, that was just so gobsmacking. Like, when that happened, I was like, I ca- I can't believe it, but yeah.Jennie: And then, now I may be getting some of the things wrong here, but then you- You realize, is it Carrie that, that you realize he was, you thought he was emulating a play, a Shakespeare play?Caroline: I think you're thinking of Shining. I mean, definitely at the end of the Carrie [00:30:00] chapter I return to, I did notice echoes of Macbeth, and I was convinced that that must have been what he was thinking about. And, and what's funny is, so one of the conversations I got to have with him, I mean, he's so generous with his time, one of my last conversations with him was about the end of Carrie, and that's a book that he actually doesn't like very much.You know, it was his first published novel, he was 26, and he's like, “I think that was written by a young man who thought he knew more than he did.” So he's, it's not a book that he goes back to. He recognizes it's important, and it's important to him, but, ‘cause it started his whole career, his whole trajectory.Um, but he didn't particularly, he hasn't returned to it. Yeah. So that was a fun chance for me to sort of talk to him and say, “Hey, you know what? I think you should maybe go back,” ‘cause it's it's, there's a lot of Shakespeare in there. Anyway, but the Shining chapter, what was fascinating, so there's this first draft, which I, I write a lot about, called The Shine, that's in the archives, with a totally different ending.Um, and when I looked at it, [00:31:00] he'd also divided it into acts and scenes, like Roman numeral acts and little- Mm ... Roman numeral scenes. And I was like, “This, what is this? This is like a Shakespeare play.” Like, that's what it looked like. And then sure enough, I found out he was imagining, he was thinking of a Shakespeare tragedy when he wrote The Shining.And that was the first moment where I was like, “What? This is insane.” Like, this- Yeah ... like, ob- obviously that became, for me, the story I wanted to tell about that particular set of manuscripts, was sort of uncovering, like, what's the Shakespeare play? Like, what's the tragedy? And I didn't wanna ask him because I didn't want- I wanted to go in with my mind clear, like, of any outside influence.I just wanted to see what my Shakespeare brain, because I'm so embedded in Shakespeare. I also have a Shakespeare podcast I do with my best friend. Like, we're, I'm always thinking about Shakespeare and how it relates to everyday life. You know, and so I'm like, “Well, how does it relate to The Shining?” Which is, like, an ur-American text.Like, this, like, say what you want about horror, [00:32:00] like- I'd be shocked if people don't know what The Shining's about, even if they haven't read it even if they haven't seen the film. Like, you probably know something about The Shining, right? Right. So I was like, if there's a Shakespeare tragedy at the foundation of this, you know.And here's the thing about Stephen King that I came to learn, again, reading all of his notes and finding these edits, and I did find traces of Macbeth in the first draft of The Shine, um, that he ended up taking out. So I was like, “Oh, is it Macbeth? It feels like it could be Macbeth.” There's so many things it has in common with it, with hallucinations and with baby bashing.And, you know, all of these horrible things that are in Macbeth are certainly in that book. Um, but I really wanted to go in, like, just on an adventure, like, see what I saw. So I didn't ask him which chi- tragedy until I was fully done with all my research and I felt like I had it all done. And that's when he drops that he was thinking of Hamlet.And once he said that, of course, it became so ... I mean, I [00:33:00] had seen traces, there were references to Ophelia that also didn't make it into the final published draft. So you wouldn't know this. This is the beauty of archival work, like you're gonna see things that other people will never know about unless you tell the story.That's why I felt so passionate about this. Like, “I need to tell people-” Yeah ... “that Ophelia was in the first draft, that he was thinking of Ophelia.” ‘Cause of course, you know, again, even if you don't know The Shining, the woman in the tub, the woman in the bathtub, like a drowned woman in a tub, like ah, Ophelia.Yeah. Like Ophelia's another one of those ur, like she's so, she's such a part of our cultural air, right? I mean, like no matter what country you're in. Right. There's a reason Taylor Swift has a whole, you know, song The Fate of Ophelia. Like people know what that means. Um, so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is, this is incredible.This is even deeper than I thought it was gonna be.” Um, but also it made me appreciate how much that book is about intergenerational trauma. Um, and it's not ... So he doesn't like the Kubrick film [00:34:00] for reasons that, you know, a couple different reasons. One is that it flattens out the character of Jack Torrance, and Jack Torrance is an abused child himself, and he passes on that abuse to his son, Danny, right?Um, but you wouldn't know that from Kubrick's film. While Hamlet, of course, is about a father's ghost coming forward. Like, “The past is a ghost,” King writes, which is so f- powerful, right? Um, here's this ghost saying, “You need to kill for me.”Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Yeah. And that's what happens to Jack. Yeah, so anyway, that's a long way to say that wasEach chapter was my favorite in different ways, but that one I loved being able to do the deep Shakespeare dive.Jennie: And was that ... You know, so I started that question by saying I, I had heard or understood or maybe inferred that, um, you know, King himself had this sort of desire- Okay ... to be taken more seriously.Was that, that must have been, I don't know, powerful for both you and him, uh, to [00:35:00] come to that? Not like, “Oh, you're the only person that's ever made him feel that way” or-Caroline: Yeah,Jennie: no,Caroline: I agree ... or agree with that, but. Like I, yeah. And, um, I mean, I will say I think part of the reason he was always really ... I mean, first of all, he's just so generous, and any writer who's ever worked with him has the same experience.Like he just gives his time. He just loves writing and writers so much that he will just, he'll just t- like any email I would send him, he'd write back in like an hour with a response. The part about how he feels about academia, you know, and I never directly asked him that because I didn't wanna ... You know, if he wanted to bring it up, great.But I think- Yeah ... my, after going on this journey with him, he clearly loves talking about- literature. He's the most well-read person I've ever met. I'm just gonna say that hands down. Like, the guy reads- Really? ... cons- constantly and if you read his early works, like even when he was 17, he wrote The Long Walk, okay, which just came out as a film, [00:36:00] and in that, he's citing T.S.Eliot, he's cit- he's citing Poe at 17. Okay? So he's, he, he, this, he comes by this honestly. He's not just trying to seem smart. Like, he literally is constantly reading and it's clear when you read his manuscripts or when you read his published books, he's making references to all, whether it's Shirley Jackson or Wallace Stevens or, you know, uh, he's so capacious in his knowledge of literature.And, like, just a couple months ago, he sent me an email, I don't, I can't remember, we were talking about something about Salem's Lot, and he was like, “Yeah, when I was writing Salem's Lot,” which again, this is 1975 when he's writing Salem's Lot, so that's a long time ago. He's like, “I was really into James Dickey's poetry.”Jennie: Whoa.Caroline: You know, who was an American no, you know, poet laureate. Uh, he's like, “And I was reading everything I could read of, of his and then I read Deliverance, and then I went back to his poetry, and that really impacted how I wrote the chapters [00:37:00] about the Lot,” which if you've read Salem's Lot, has some very lyrical, poetic chapters about the town, like, “The town knew about darkness.The town had its secrets and knew how to kept it.” And then he, like, sends me the entire poem that he was thinking about that James Dickey wrote. So I mean, it's, he's, and it's not performative. He's not, like, he has nothing. He doesn't need to prove anything to me, you know?Jennie: Right, to anyone, yeah.Caroline: He just literally loves, he loves literature.Like, this guy, he loves poetry. I mean, he actually writes poetry. He wrote poetry as an undergraduate. Uh, it was actually the core start for him of The Stand, was a poem he wrote called The Dark Man one day when he was, like, hungover in the school, like, cafeteria. Like, so it's like he, he's been thinking about literature and living with literature and, uh, since he was a teenager, if not earlier.His mom brought him, uh, Bram Stoker out of the public library when he was nine, so I mean, the guy- Whoa ... ‘cause he asked for it. He asked for Dracula. [00:38:00] I wasn't reading Dracula when I was nine. Were you? I mean-Jennie: No,Caroline: no. I was reading Little House on the Prairie. I mean-Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow. So- I mean, this book, again, it's called Monsters in the Archives: My Year of Fear with Stephen King by Carolyn Bicks.It's just incredible, whether you're a King fan, whether you're a horror fan, um, but for sure for all writers, which are all our listeners. If you can, if you can bear it.It's very specific, um, a very specific- specific exploration of, of how good writing works really. Yeah. Right. And, and how you... You know, there's always that perennial question of how do you get emotion on the page? How do you make your reader feel something? And you, you show it very specifically, and I wanted so badly [00:39:00] to, to get into the details, and I, and I, I just, I just couldn't.Um, maybe someday, but, um, I just, I just can't recommend it enough for, for, um, this audience and, um, you know, anyone who's interested in any of these things we've talked about.Caroline: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I will say, like, the Pet Sematary chapter, which is the first one, that was the first day I was in the archives.One of the things I discovered about him day one was how much attention he pays to word sounds. So I think for any writer interested in sort of doing a deep dive into, like, how one word change, right- Yeah ... can make a difference, you know? Yeah. And I didn't appreciate that about his writing until I went in there and saw his notes to the copy editor where he's like, “Nope, the word's clitter, not clatter.This is why.” You know? Like,Jennie: he's- There's a, um- Yeah ... yeah, there's a book I love, it's probably right behind me, um, called The Artful Edit by Susan Bell, in which she [00:40:00] shows examples of that kind of very careful change in, um, The Gre- The Great Gatsby and The English Patient and various works of, of literature, and your, your whole book is like that.It's, it's just amazing. Um- Thank you ... so is the next book gonna be the Shakespeare one you had thought of before? Or are you gonna- ... go in the, in the personal direction?Caroline: You know, it's such a good question. I think right now I'm just taking a break, you know, because I'm the kind... Like, I immerse myself in a project, and this has been so all-consuming.Um, and I'm back to doing my Everyday Shakespeare podcast, which I love and I missed. Um, so I'm doing that. And I, I really don't like to think too far ahead about what I'm going to write. I like to have it come organically.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Um, so I could go back into the archives. I could write another one of these kinds of books, but I don't know if that's the [00:41:00] right thing for me right now.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: Um, I want to make sure whatever I write next- You know, I loved writing this book so much. It's my favorite... I mean, it's, it was such a powerful experience for me, um, because I could bring my personal experiences into it and my scholarly self into it. I don't... You know, it's gonna be hard to recreate that.Yeah. I think it can be done, but I don't wanna force it. Yeah. So I'm gonna wait and see what the next, what the next oneJennie: is. Don't you, don't you love the interviewer who's like, “Hey, congratulations. You wrote a book. What, what's your nextCaroline: one?” What are you working on now? What are you doing now? I know. And I get that.I'm like-Jennie: So mean ...Caroline: I'm just, I'm just reading books I wanna read. I'm doing my laundry. I'm getting to know my dog again. You know?Jennie: Oh, wow. Well, thankCaroline: you. But, you know, it's a fair question. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming and chatting about this, and for writing such a cool book. And- Thank you ... um, I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next.Caroline: Thank you, Jennie. It was a [00:42:00] pleasure.Jennie: Well, for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring their extended series on the parables of Matthew to a powerful climax with the passage most listeners have been waiting for: the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31–46). Far from a checklist of works required for salvation, this text is unpacked as the master parable of Christ's entire parabolic ministry — a sovereign declaration of divine election, not a merit-based audit of individual performance. Tony and Jesse explore why this passage has been chronically misread as a call to works righteousness, why the language of inheritance and predestination is front and center, and how a Reformed reading liberates rather than burdens the conscience. Along the way, they weigh in on Herman Bavinck's prescient warning about media distraction, and Jesse recommends a Puritan gem on anxiety worth picking up immediately. Key Takeaways The Sheep and Goats is best understood as a parable, or at minimum parable-adjacent. The Greek construction in verse 31 mirrors the same comparative language Christ uses throughout his parabolic ministry, placing this text firmly within that tradition rather than outside it. The kingdom was prepared before any works were done — this is election language. The phrase "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v. 34) is not a reward for performance; it is the language of sovereign predestination preceding all human action. The works of the sheep are diagnostic, not causative. What the righteous did reveals who they already were — sheep — rather than being the mechanism by which they became sheep. The beak doesn't make the bird. Both groups are surprised, and that surprise is the parabolic punchline. Neither the sheep nor the goats anticipated the verdict they received, which undermines any reading that frames this text as an encouragement to accumulate saving merit. This passage is a recapitulation of the wheat and tares parable. Sheep and goats co-mingled until the moment of final separation, just as wheat and tares grow together until the harvest — the judgment reveals what was always true. Any theology that requires a human contribution to activate or complete salvation misreads this text.Whether Roman Catholic, Arminian, or Mormon in flavor, every view that makes God's preparation of the kingdom contingent on foreseen human merit fundamentally inverts the logic of the passage. The scope of judgment — "all nations" (ta ethnos) — would have been scandalous to first-century Jewish ears. This language deliberately expands the kingdom beyond ethnic Israel, fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant promise and confounding the assumptions of the religious elite. Key Concepts The Kingdom Prepared Before Your Works: Sovereign Election, Not Merit When the King says to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), the theological weight of that single sentence is staggering. The kingdom was not prepared in response to anything the sheep did. It was prepared before time, before works, before choice — which means the works that follow in the passage cannot be the grounds of that inheritance. Only a Calvinistic understanding of election can sustain this logic without remainder. Arminian views require God to foresee a qualifying human response; Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views require some degree of meritorious participation; even certain Lutheran frameworks lean on non-resistance to grace. Reformed theology alone places the entire cause within God's sovereign, unconditional decree — and this passage, read plainly, says exactly that. Works as Evidence, Not Ground: The Diagnostic Function of This Parable The great pastoral error in preaching this passage is treating it as a performance rubric — a list of charitable acts that, if completed, qualify a person for eternal life. But Christ does not separate the sheep from the goats because of what they did or failed to do. He separates them, and then describes the activity that characterized each group. The works are revelatory. They surface what was already true of each person's nature, just as a bird's beak reveals its species rather than constituting it. This reframing is liberating precisely because it means assurance does not rest on tallying acts of charity. It rests on the sovereign act of a Father who prepared a kingdom and the regenerating work of the Spirit who produces, in those He has claimed, a life that looks like the one described here. "All Nations": The Scandal of an Ethnically Inclusive Kingdom The Greek phrase ta ethnē — translated "all nations" in most English Bibles — would have landed very differently on first-century Jewish ears, particularly those of the Pharisees and Sadducees who comprised a significant portion of Christ's audience throughout Matthew 24–25. To them, ta ethnē meant the Gentiles, the peoples out there, those outside the covenant. The implicit effect of Christ's language is to place every people group — including Israel — within a single undifferentiated mass standing before his throne, with no ethnic group receiving preferential standing at the bar of judgment. This is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic promise of blessing to all families of the earth (Genesis 12:3), the vision of Psalm 2, and the missionary thrust of the Great Commission. The scandal is not incidental — it is the point. The kingdom Christ is ushering in is not the ethnic-nationalist kingdom the religious establishment expected. Memorable Quotes The kingdom of heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did... That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you. - Tony It's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable. - Tony The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, 'In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom,' so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own. - Jesse Full Transcript [00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 498 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:19] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:24] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. They said it couldn't be done. They said we couldn't come back. We wouldn't come back and continue in Matthew 25. But here we are, and we're ending this chapter in this whole section about sheep and goats. Everybody was clamoring for it. Everybody wanted to know, what about the sheep and the goats? And I think the last time we all chatted together, we prefaced it by saying it's parable adjacent. Or let's just say- Yes ... we just stacked up these three other parables, lots of things going on, and then Jesus resolves this or brings all these parables to a culmination by speaking about the end times, the end of all things, and the sheep and the goats. Yeah. And so we gotta go there  [00:02:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I'm stoked.  [00:02:07] What Counts Parable [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: And y- you know, I, I was talking with a brother at, um, at church yesterday on the Lord's day, and he was asking how the podcast's going and what we're doing. And, you know, I was kind of thinking, like, I was talking about the parables and how we're kind of moving forward, and we were gonna do some of the I am sayings in John. And, and I was thinking, like, what is a parable anyways? And who decides what a parable is and what a parable isn't? Right. Um, some of the parables Christ calls a parable, others he doesn't. Uh, we'll probably talk a little bit about that when we get to, uh, some of the back half of Luke. But this, this episode I think is gonna be really, really the payoff and really the culmination of not just these, like, this trio of or trilogy of parables that we've talked about, but I think really, like, the payout of all of the parables in Matthew. It's really, like, the summary of all of Christ's parabolic teachings. So it's, it's a good place for us to round out Matthew, and then we'll, we'll dip into the parables in the other gospels, probably have a couple more months of, of, uh, parable talk before we move on to the next thing. But, uh, it's been great, and I'm super, super stoked for this. This is one of my favorite passages, actually, and there's so much to dig into. I, I, I'm just gonna say now, we probably won't make it through the whole thing- Right ... uh, because there's a lot there. But we'll see. We'll see how we do. Maybe Jesse and I will be super efficient tonight, uh, but we usually aren't, so. [00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's never happened. We, we take it low and slow. Not only that- ... it was reminding me as you spoke about that kind of proverb generally of if you wanna go build a wall, you assess what you need, how many stones, and then you go gather those stones. Yeah. You should double it, or if you're gonna go out and fight an army, take stock of that army. That's basically what we do, but in reverse. Anytime, like, you just... I just heard you say- ... like, "It'll probably take us a couple more months," you should double that. That's probably how long- Yeah ... it's actually gonna take us.  [00:03:50] Faith Works Assurance [00:03:50] Jesse Schwamb: Even in this- Yeah ... conversation, I think we're gonna get stuck in the best way possible speaking about things like faith, works, and assurance because there's a lot of language here- Yeah that could seem on the surface to sit in this tension with justification by faith alone. And I think the key to resolving all that tension, as I hopefully think we'll see, lies in the readings of works as the evidence of living faith rather than its ground, and I think that's what- Yes ... Christ is leading us through all of these parables, actually, whether it goes back. And you should listen to all those episodes. In fact, I gotta ask. Th- I mean, this brother you were talking to, it just strikes me as that question had already be answered for him if you were listening to the podcast. So-  [00:04:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I don't think he does. No, I don't think he does- ... listen to the podcast. Uh, he knows that I do the podcast, and he's very gracious to ask me about it. Tom. And I think he's probably listened to the podcast before. Got it. Um, and he's, he's just a very kind, gracious brother who, who is concerned and wants to know what I'm doing. And, um, he has, he has his own sort of, like, production stuff that he does that he enjoys that I'm, I'm not super keyed into. But, uh, it was just nice. But, but it did get me thinking, like, I was trying to explain to him where we were in the progress of the parables, and I was like, "I can't really... I don't really know," because, like, it's hard to even understand and fully... There's no, like, full comprehensive universal list of what is a parable- Right ... and what's not. And I think what we've found as we've been going through this is sometimes, sometimes you come up against a portion of a text that is often taught sort of separate from the, the rest of it. Parables get taught discreet from other parables. But then you have these sort of, like, intervening texts, or this one's kind of a summary text, that's so integrated to what the parable means you really can't do a series on these parables without also treating this text. Which is gonna be interesting, 'cause I've never, I've never encountered somebody who really roots this teaching here of Christ in the context of the parables, despite its proximity. So it'll be fun. We're gonna figure it out in real time, and, and it'll be good.  [00:05:47] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's gonna be fun.  [00:05:48] Deny Doomscrolling Bavinck [00:05:48] Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of fun, we're so glad that you're listening, and we know that you're waiting with bated breath to hear about affirmations or denials. It's of course that part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is fantastic, maybe by way of recommendation, or conversely, we deny against something that isn't that great. So Tony, as is our custom in the liturgy of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, I ask you once again, are you affirming with or deny against? [00:06:15] Tony Arsenal: I am denying against something, and I'm gonna do that by affirming a Herman Bavinck quote. Uh, so I'm gonna read it for you. This, uh... Some of the guys in the Facebook group have put... or the Facebook group, the Telegram chat, have put together a, uh, like, a reading group to work through Bavinck's, uh, Wonderful Works of God, which is great, and I'm loving it. I haven't been able to participate in the conversation as much as I would like to, but just being part of a reading group, uh, sort of keeps you on schedule, which is great. So I've been reading through Wonderful Works of God, and on the Kindle edition, on page 34, uh, which I think is still the, I think is still the, uh, introduction, he says, quote, "The reading of daily and weekly newspapers, of magazines and brochures, devours our every blink. There's a lack of desire and opportunity for the investigation of scripture and the study of old theological works," end quote. And when I read that, it just really struck me as like- If that was true like 70 years ago, 80 years ago when Bavinck was writing this, right? And all there was was hard, hard copy media. There was no, uh, there was no digital media. There was radio, but there wasn't a lot of programming. Uh, I don't think that there was much in the way of television broadcasting. If there was, it was, it was very, very limited and very rudimentary. Um, even then he was saying the daily news cycle and all of this extra stuff that is out there is consuming our, quote, "Every blink," which I thought was a really interesting phrase. Um, it's basically like it's so ingrained in us, we're so invested and obsessed with the news cycle. Uh, or you might translate that to like to our Twitter feed or our Facebook feed or our Instagram reels or whatever it might be, and dare I say it, the podcasts we listen to.  [00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, that we don't save time for scripture and other theological works. And I think it's funny too is that the, the eternal, uh, the eternal contemporary statement of the Reformed world is like we don't read enough old theological works. Even Bavinck, who I'm reading as one of the old... I mean, not like super old, but like one of the old theological works, is saying, "Hey, we don't read enough old theological works." So I'm denying this sort of like obsession we have with the daily news cycle and with constantly being up to date and like constantly consuming all of that. Um, we've talked about how like our modern global news cycle sort of, uh, is built around the deception that we can be sort of pseudo omnipotent and know all things about everything. And, um- There's a lot of work that's been done to show that, like, the world's not really that much, not that much more of a violent place than it was 100 years ago. We just know a lot more about what's going on- Right ... in other parts of the world. And there's pros and cons to that. But I think the main con is, like, we, we feel suddenly that we have to be, you know, deeply involved in the goings on of a church on the other side of the country that we never would've even known existed otherwise. It- there's just a, there's a sense of omnipotence and omnipresence that's just not becoming for the creature that I think we try to take on. So Bavinck knew it. Uh, we've talked about it. Lots and lots of people have talked about it. This isn't new. I'm not, I'm not e- engineering anything new on this. But that quote really struck me when I was reading. I was like, "Dang, man, he, he got it right 100 years ago or, or 80 years ago, and we're still struggling with it." And I think probably, like, if you go back and you look at the, I don't know, more occasional writings of people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, um, as they're interacting with, like, people in the Reformed community or the Protestant community, I bet you would find statements like this too about how, like, we really spend a lot of time reading, like, silly things and not spending- Right our time studying the scripture or studying, um, theological works. So that's my denial. I'm sticking to it, and if that means you feel like you need to turn this podcast off and go read some John Calvin or some Herman Bavinck, then by all means. Uh, I think you're probably going to be edified by what we have to talk about. But, uh, th- the Bible's better, so if you gotta go do it, if you only got- That's true ... an hour today to study scripture or listen to this podcast, please go study scripture. Yeah. Uh, hopefully we can do a little bit of both with this podcast. But Herman Bavinck said it best. Our every blink is consumed with pamphlets and newspapers and it just is- It's true it's pretty silly.  [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: It's true.  [00:10:42] Meme Detour Reading Groups [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I gotta take us all the way back to where you started there, and I'm going to betray, to nobody's surprise, my really strong naivete when it comes- ... to social media, and memes in particular. But this is what occurred to me, and I'm gonna try it. This is, like, what classically makes really good podcasting. Let me try to describe a meme to you that I'm not even sure I actually understand or know. So this will be great. I think, you tell me, Tony, 'cause you may have seen this. It's an old meme too, so I'm not even, like, on the cutting edge here. I think it's a meme of two panels showing, like, two pictures of Drake. In know one he's kinda, like, pushing away as if to say, like, "Get that outta here," and the other one's like, "Oh yeah, that's the stuff." Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Is that accurate?  [00:11:21] Tony Arsenal: I do. I think you're gonna use it wrong, but yeah.  [00:11:23] Jesse Schwamb: Is that Drake? Okay, all  [00:11:24] Tony Arsenal: right. Yeah, that's, that's the meme.  [00:11:25] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, okay. And usually, if I understand it correctly, it's kind of like a faux juxtaposition of two things, right? Like, okay. So like here, let me try it. Uh, uh, let me just try it on everybody. Here we go. I'm gonna describe to you how I just interpret this based on what you said, 'cause something cracked me up that you said, Tony. If I were gonna make this meme just based on how you opened that up, the first panel would be like Drake pushing away the idea or being like, "That's no good," book club. The second one would be reading group, as in like, like the reading group is like the new cool way of like just kind of... Did I use it properly? Am I close?  [00:11:59] Tony Arsenal: I think the problem with this is that there's like a, there's like an ironic way to use it, and then there's like a more direct way to use it. Mm. Yeah. The direct way would be like some- like Drake's pushing away something that's bad, and he's- Yeah ... like accepting something that's good. That'd be like the direct way. Yes. The more ironic one is where like Drake is pushing away something that's actually pretty, actually pretty good, and he's- Yeah ... accepting the one that's pretty silly. Oh, okay. Um, there's a lot of memes that have that basic format. Never mind. There's one with like Jordi LaForge. I think there's a Michael Scott one. I tried. I tried. But yeah, no, I, I think yours is valid, it's just, I think it's an older usage of the meme. That's like the, that's like the middle English version of that meme. The Shakespearean use of that meme.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I'll take that. It's the old English style. I love a good book club or a reading group. A, a reading group just, it does have that sound like maybe somebody in the group has a monocle, or you guys have tea. Either way- Yeah ... I absolutely love it. And yes, what are our beautiful quotes. You kind of hear that general conception recapitulated among like theologians almost in every era. But it does make you think, what would Bavinck say about, like doom scrolling on the smartphone? Like- Yeah ... he's beside himself, right? It would just be beside himself. So I'm with you. I, it, there's gonna be a condemnation in every generation. Maybe I say this with some degree of like chronological snobbery, especially in ours, when it comes to not, like you said, I think kind of like not carving out or not prioritizing time in the scriptures. Yeah. There's not gonna be any excuse of like, "Well, I just didn't have time." Right. Or, "There were too many things to read." It's just, it's not gonna cut it. So I'm with you. I think you and I have talked about this at length, even just like the news media like you and I consume, like just s- set aside social media for a second. Just like how i- how much value is there in a lot of like what we cons- used to consider to be like well-informed reporting? How valuable is that to us? Yeah. And I'm certainly not saying like that everybody should be like unconcerned and uninterested in the world, but I think it's to what degree and what fascination we have with that, and how it fits into our priority as we consume information each day. That's the thing that's tricky, and there's no really-  [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:14:02] Jesse Schwamb: good answer except to weigh out with the spiritual discernment- Yeah ... how we ought to consume that stuff. But certainly I think, without question, we need to be prioritizing time in prayer, time in the scriptures. I imagine if we were all doing that with a great deal of attention, that all of the other things would kind of find their way into the right place. Or let's say they would just find their way out of our lives in a significant way- Yeah ... that would remove us from distraction and anxiety, instead bring us back into the providence of God.  [00:14:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not gonna be the guy that tells you you can never s- you can never scroll Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Um, I, I think that's a decision that's between you and the Holy Spirit as far as how you spend your time. But I, I do think, um, I think you're right- We are accountable for the decisions we make and how- Right ... we choose to divide up our time. And I- God, I mean, God is the inventor of fun. He's the inventor of leisure, and he is, uh, I think he's pleased and honored when we, we make good use of our time f- for things that are restful and rejuvenating. Um, he doesn't expect us to just slavishly read scripture all day, every day, like every minute. That's not, that's not the biblical expectation. Um, and so I think it's fine if you wanna sit down and watch a fun show, or if you wanna watch some YouTube videos, or listen to a silly podcast, or listen to a serious podcast. Um, but I do, I agree. Like, we, we really need to be thoughtful. And I think where, where Bavinck's quote, uh, is strong is it's not so much about, "Don't read these things." Right. He, he's talking about these things consume our every blink. Like, m- he's treating blink... He's using the word blink as sort of a fill-in for like our, our finite resource of time and attention, and these things have consumed all of them. There's a very strong use of that word consume. Uh, and I, I think that's really the, the point that I'm trying to make is we often allow, either intentionally or unintentionally, we, we just let our time get all sucked up, uh, on things that maybe are good but are not pr- properly proportioned. Um- Like I said, it's, it's fine to spend some time on Twitter and to get into a debate once in a while, or to check in on your friends on Facebook, your old high school, college buddies or whatever, but we can definitely take it too far. So I think it's a good corrective for all of us to at least make a stop and think about how we're spending our time, and whether we are affording the appropriate amount of time to things like scripture, theological study, catechesis of our children, um, family worship, all of those good things. So we don't have to go much more into that. I think the point has been made. Uh, so Jesse, what are you affirming and/or denying tonight?  [00:16:43] Affirm Puritan Anxiety Cure [00:16:43] Jesse Schwamb: Perfect segue, because speaking of reading old things, you know me, I've always got some kind of Puritan work in the rotation, and the one I just finished is the one I'm affirming, which is called Special Providence for Anxious Souls by Obadiah Sedgwick, who I think is kinda... Like, people are sleeping on Sedgwick, you know? Mm-hmm. He's, he's kinda like, he's there in the wings, but we need to take him off the bench. And I came across this book and I thought, "Who doesn't want a title like that in their lives?" Like, we got some anxiety in all of our souls. And I'm affirming this because, uh, hi- his definitions, his writing is, are on point. But here's what I thought. I was embarrassed that I picked this up expecting one thing, and then in typical puritanical fashion, was delivered something else that was far better. And I was thinking about this title as you might see it, like, in your modern bookstore today, whether it's, like, in Barnes & Nobles or at any of the periodicals we were just kind of mentioning or implying that are out there. And I was expecting to get some kind of, I don't know, six or seven things, I mean, that's Puritan style, but six or seven things that would really help you diagnose the psychology, and then going back to the scripture in ways, all, all the ways we'd expect about how God loves us and cares for us, and all those things are true. And yet the only way I could describe how this book ministered to me is, like, how you might go to a physical therapist for some kind of ailment, which I have many as I get older, and have recently been to one. And the ailment I had was, um, basically like tarsal tunnel, which is like carpal tunnel for your foot. And so there was some nerves that were inflamed and causing some pain and some weirdness in my feet. And here's what I do know about physical therapy now that I think the Puritans also do for our souls, and that is the physical therapist gave me this full workup. They prodded me and poked me and rubbed things and made things hurt- And in the course of doing that, they clearly could figure out what was wrong with my foot. And so when he gave me the diagnosis, after, again, rubbing that part and, like, doing one of those things where he's like, you know, they tap on your hard and they're like, "Does that hurt?" I'm like, "Yes, it does hurt." And I presume that's because you know anatomy. And, you know, he's, he's ta- tapping on my ankle and it's causing my foot underneath to hurt. And after all that, you know, I run on a treadmill. He d- takes all this video, and this is what he says to me. He goes, "Yeah, so this is actually pretty straightforward." And I was like, "Great, so what are we talking about? Like exercises, uh, splints, like massage?" He's like, "You have a weak butt." And I was like- "I'm sorry, let's talk about that for a second." And this is what I've learned about physical therapy, is it's rarely about the thing that's actually bothering you or the thing that's hurt, right? It's something- Yeah ... far different. It's something almost seemingly, like, disjointed or removed or divorced from the very thing, maybe even non-contiguous, if only in our minds, maybe even logically. And so what I love about this is the first half of the book is just speaking about the province of God before it even gets into this idea of anxiety. And then the treatment on anxiety and worry is, he goes through, like, six or seven things in particular, are just absolutely glorious. So good that I want you to read it. I don't even want to talk about it. Uh, that, that's my admonishment to you, is that you should just go pick it up. So I'm affirming again that the Puritans in particular do this thing where there's, there's no cheap advice here. It's not even hide advice. It's really good advice, but it's the kind that says, "You have a weak butt" when you're concerned that your ankle- is messed up. Yeah. And that's sometimes what you need to hear. And in my case, after... Let's make this super weirdly spiritual. After doing a bunch of squats, I don't know what the spiritual equivalent is of that. After doing a bunch of squats, my ankle and my foot was so much better. And it, because I had somebody who cared enough for me to go through and actually diagnose the root of it, that was the reason that inevitably there was healing. So I've, this has given me so much to think about, this tiny little treatise. So much to put into practice. It's so rich, so good, so practical, and yet I think you'll find in many ways joyfully unexpected. So I highly affirm to everybody listening, and even those who aren't, Special Providence for Anxious Souls, Obadiah Sedgwick. You'll, you'll love it  [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:49] Physical Therapy Spiritual Practice [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: So two thoughts. Uh, one, uh, I can confirm Jesse has a weak butt, um, flat as a board. So it's probably, probably better after, after doing some squats. Wow. Uh, two- Wow. ... uh, I can say I also am in some physical therapy right now, and I've been a little bit of a slacker. And what I will contribute to the conversation is just like in physical therapy, they can give you all of the exercises- Yeah uh, that you want. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get better. Yeah. And so whether it's Jesse doing squats or me not finding time to stretch and to do some, like, arm exercises with a, with a s- uh, like a TheraBand, uh, the same holds true. And, and maybe to unify our, uh, affir- our denials/affirmations into one mega, mega recommendation, um, the same holds true in that, one, we can take a book like this from, uh, Sedgwick, and we can turn it into the same thing we do with media where we're just... it's just devouring our blinks. Right. And we're just using it as a way to sort of, like, feed our eye hole Get better. You won't improve. Um, and that's actually the same with scripture. Like y-you can- Right ... turn scripture into, uh, into a snack food that you, you don't actually use to be nutritious. Um, I think there's probably more benefit to reading scripture sort of rote and, and almost mechanically than there is to reading anything else. But, um, but at the end of the day, you can also consume your blinks with scripture and not get a lot out of it if all you're doing is passing your eyes over text. So get in there. I think that's great. I haven't read that one. I mean, I think there's... I think there are probably many, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many, many Puritan treaties that- treatises that are similar in theme and tone and have the same kind of like spiritual antidote or spiritual medicine, um, prescribed by these guys that is good and wholesome. And again, like, like you're saying, like it's not that complicated. It's not that hard. Right. It just takes- Right ... you just actually have to do the work. Um, it's funny, my physical therapy thing is my, my shoulder has been really ba- really messed up, and I went in, I expected him to give me all these, all these shoulder exercises, and he's like, "Uh Really what you need to do is you fix your neck, uh, 'cause your shoulder is, is being in- injured because you're sleeping- Okay on that side because you're trying to stay off the other side. So, like, you really gotta fix your neck so you can sleep on the other side of your body. And I was like, "So I'm just, like, sleeping wrong?" Like, it's funny, there's a joke, it's like in your 20s you can do anything you want, in your 30s, like, you gotta be a little bit careful, and in your 40s, like, you hurt yourself just sleeping. Right. Just getting out of bed is dangerous.  [00:23:46] Jesse Schwamb: It's  [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: true.  [00:23:47] Jesse Schwamb: It's true. So. It's a tough world. But  [00:23:48] Tony Arsenal: it's true. I feel like a really old man saying that.  [00:23:51] Read Matthew 25 Aloud [00:23:51] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me that you're right, of course, that there's so much here we always have to put into practice. There's so much here that we have to trust with God. There's a faith that works. And so I think actually that is the most lovely inroad into this final passage of Matthew, because there's a lot here for us to talk about with all of those things, and to understand it in this proper context. So as you've already set us up, Tony, the best part of our podcast is the scripture, for sure, 100%. So let's go there. So we're in Matthew 25 in case you're just joining us. And for some reason I went into, like, a full radio mode, as if this, like, this is being broadcast live, and you just came into the program. We're in Matthew 25, uh, starting in verse 31, and I'm gonna read until the end of the chapter. There's so much here that of course we're not gonna get to all of it, but in the spirit of literally having the full context of the scripture in front of us, and to hear it all, I think it's important. It w- b- better yet, you should go back and read the entire chapter and then tune in right now. But let me start at verse 31. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me.  [00:25:32] Judgment Scene Read [00:25:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angers-- angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they will themselves also answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life  [00:26:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:26:49] Parable Not Fear [00:26:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a sobering passage. And just as I think we've seen in a lot of the other parables, um These eschatological parables and these eschatological sayings of Christ, uh, as you kind of alluded to earlier, I, I think they are really, really, um... They are not prone to being misinterpreted. Right. The church has been prone to misinterpreting and misapplying these, um, in a, in a way that's used to make, make the Christian fearful and to, uh, undermine their assurance rather than to call them to action or to accountability.  [00:27:33] Why It's A Parable [00:27:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I think a- as I've been reading through this and I've been sort of glancing at the Greek as we're reading, I actually think I'm on... I, I stumbled on much more better ground to treat this as a parable than I even originally thought I did. You know, I, I had this whole lead-up that this isn't technically a parable, but when you read here, when it says, in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in glory and the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates- Right ... the sheep from the goats." If you go back to verse 14, when it says, "For it will be like a man," uh, that, that first word of verse 14 in the Greek is the same word as is used when it says, um, uh, "He separates people one from another as a shepherd." That same word is used as there, it's just translated differently because of where it comes in the, um, in the text. So Christ is still making this comparison, so it would be as though he said, um, you know, like the common, most common, at least so far, most common kind of parabolic introduction is like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like." Um, this is the same basic language he's using here to introduce what the eschaton will be like. Right? The ga- the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them. It says people in the ESV, but will separate them one from another. You could also say the, the nations or the peoples will be gathered before him. Right. He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep. So the parable here is the s- the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats, this whole process of the separation and this, this, um, frankly, like it's, it feels and smells like a parable, right? It does. This, this, um, figure, this shepherd in the parable or the shepherd in the saying is saying these sort of like parabolic statements. He's using this language that's kind of like shocking punchline statement. Like we've talked about how in parables there's often this sort of unexpected turn of events, or there's this unexpected kind of shocking language, and this whole like twist at the end in both, sort of both s- chunks here, where like the sheep don't really understand, like they didn't really recognize that they were doing sheepy things, and the goats didn't really understand that they were being goats. That's like the parabolic twist or the parabolic punchline here. So the, the kingdom of heaven is like, basically it's like the Son of Man will come in his glory and it will be like this. It will be like a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. That's the parabolic connection here. Mm-hmm. So I actually think that, that linguistically we're on, we're on pretty solid ground not just to treat this as a summary of all the parables, um- I think of for sure these three parables, but it, it really is like the master parable, and I think probably the master parable that kinda governs and constrains and explains all of the parabolic ministry of Christ. So I'm, I'm stoked for us to really dig into the details a little bit, but I think linguistically we're on super good ground to, to treat this as a parable. I agree. At the very least, it's stronger than just parable adjacent.  [00:30:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:30:44] Tony Arsenal: It- but even if we aren't saying it's a parable proper, it's stronger than that. It still is using this kinda comparative ministry, comparative language that Christ has used throughout the parabolic, um, sayings of Christ.  [00:30:57] Jesse Schwamb: The construction seems a little bit less veiled because here we have Jesus implanting himself directly into the account.  [00:31:03] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm.  [00:31:04] Shepherd Imagery Stakes [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: At the same time, though, he's drawing on all the things you just said he does, especially with this allusion to shepherding, which would've been, of course, common throughout. So it seems to me a lovely bridge to all of the overt parables he's just told, but now he's bringing them all together and placing himself clearly as, like, the interpreter, as the identifier of all the things, as the one to seal up all of the edges, as it were. So it's clear that this is about the end times. All of these were all about the end times and about Jesus' role in them. And so of course here he identifies himself as the eschatological judge just to make it clear. He's the one who sits on his glorious throne, and that's significant, and that's why I think we sometimes feel like, well, this is not a parable because he's, he's being very, like, Christologically certain and direct here. You know, throughout scripture the final judgment is God's prerogative alone, but the Father has committed all that judgment to the Son, and here's Jesus affirming that. And so again, like Reformed theology, in all our conversations we've consistently emphasized that this text is in many ways, like, proof of Christ's full deity and his role as mediatorial king, and he's exercising his office as the judge at his return in glory. And though, like you said, at the same time, here's the cool parable kind of scent or flavor is you get all these nations, every person who has ever lived, not merely Israel or merely the church. And how does Jesus describe this? He goes back into parabolic language. And we got the shepherd imagery that- Yeah is, like, similar to Ezekiel 34 where God himself is judging between the sheep of his flock. And that separation, the shockingness of it, it's immediate, it's binary. There's no third category. There's only two eternal destinies. There's no purgatory, no middle ground, no post-mortem opportunity for repentance. So all that's at stake. And then again, the beauty of the language itself or the setup of the construction of the story as it unfolds is that both groups- Get the same speech with a change in do or do not, but they both ask the same question from, like, wildly different perspectives and standings. And that's the beautiful- Yeah thing to make reconciliation over is what does all this mean then? How is all this established and how is this final judgment come to be such that there are sheep and goats if, in fact, they're both doing the same things theoretically, or they're at least both asking the same questions of, well, when did this ever actually occur? That, that's what's for us to unpack either way.  [00:33:29] All Nations Gathered [00:33:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and b- before we jump into, um, into the parable itself and start to unpack that, the other element that I think is worth, uh, and this just came to me so hopefully I'm not on too far of a, of a limb here. But the other element that I think is worth at least commenting on, um, we've, we've remarked, especially in these last three eschatological, um, parables, how much these are directed at the religious leaders, right? Right. The, the, the people are, um, the, the- the parables are told, um, in the context and sort of following up on these, this real directed, um, assault against the religious leaders who thought they were the ones, right? They're the ones that have a claim to the Kingdom of Heaven, they're the ones that, um, are the, you know, they're the ones that think they're doing the right thing, they're the ones that are ushering in God's kingdom. This little phrase here, "gathered all the nations," would also have really stuck in the craw of the religious leaders, right? Because the word for nations that's translated here is the same word that would el- elsewhere get translated as Gentiles, right? And the word people, when it says, "He will separate the people," that, that word people doesn't actually exist in the Greek. So if you translate this very literally, it'd say, "Before him will, will be gathered all nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Now, I don't wanna go the route of saying, like, this is a parable about, like, which pe- people group will be brought into the kingdom and which won't, and I've read some that go that direction. I don't wanna go there. But this idea that, like, even in the final judgment, the people who are in view here are the Gentiles, right? Right. I think most Jewish, particularly the, the Pharisees and the Sadducees hearing this, would've, would've read this and would've read ta ethnos, and would not have thought nations the way we do. Certainly would not have thought of, like, modern nation states. They might have been thinking maybe, like, people groups in general, but they would be thinking more along the lines of, like, Psalm, Psalm 2, like, "Why do the nations rage?" kind of nations. Why do the Gentiles rage? Why do the peoples plot in vain? They would've been thinking th- this, this, uh, judgment almost, at least on the face of it, almost excludes the Jews entirely when you think about it this way. It's really now sort of, like, zooming out where at the very least, at the minimal least, the Jews are just another people group within this broader judgment of the people group. Right. So again, like, we've seen this theme that Christ is continually expanding the scope of what is considered to be the Kingdom of Heaven to include not just the Jewish people, um, but all nations, all people groups, all Gentiles and Jews alike. And in a very real sense, um, and I wanna be careful how I've said this, I know I've commented this in the past, there's a very real sense of anti-Semitism that is prominent in- reform, quote-unquote reformed circles right now that is just vile and disgusting and sinful, and has no place in any sort of Biblical Christianity. But there is a reality that the Jewish people, broadly speaking, um, rejected the Messiah, at least while he was here on Earth. Um, relatively speaking, very few Jewish people, especially in the Jewish elite, like the leadership class, accepted Christ for who he was while he was here. Many Jews came to faith through the ministry of Peter, uh, and, and even through the ministry of Paul, even though he was an apostle to the Gentiles. So it's not as though it remained the case, but at this point in Christ's ministry, the Jewish people were by and large were rejecting him as Messiah. And so this idea and, and sort of this like final culmination now saying like he gathered all the, all the Gentiles, all of the peoples, all of the nations. In Jewish, in Jewish language and, and when you look in the Old Testament, and even in some of the New Testament literature, the nations were those people out there. So even if we don't translate this as Gentiles, we don't, we don't take that more like restrictive sense, even then it still implies that Christ is talking about people out there, the non-Jewish nations- Right are being gathered before his throne. And so that's not to say, absolutely not to say that the Jewish people, that, that the Jewish people of his day or the, the... This is where it gets tricky too, 'cause like we think about modern Israel and we, we import our understandings of like nation states. That's not what was in view here. The, the idea of a modern nation state was not a concept that existed in the first century. Um, you might have something like city states, but even that is kind of like a little bit ethereal. The idea here is that all people groups, and maybe, maybe we conceptualize Israel now as one of these people groups, the Israeli Jewish people as one of these people groups. All of those people groups, Jews, Gentiles, Scythians, Athenians, Spartans, like, uh, Ethiopians, you know, all of these different people- Right ... groups that are mentioned in the, the New Testament, all of those peoples, all of those nations are gathered before the throne, and then he will separate them one from another in the same way that a shepherd sep- separates the goats. [00:38:35] Group Judgment Assurance [00:38:35] Tony Arsenal: And yes, I think there is an individualistic, um, judgment element, and this is where I think, um... And, and then I'll, I'll pause for a second. This is where I think we can go wrong reading this as a parable about the individual judgment of individuals in the future That's not really what the language here is supporting. This is supporting sort of a broader group-based judgment, and the grouping is there are those who are sheep and there are those who are goats. But it doesn't appear as though Christ is saying like, "I'm evaluating each individual person, and this person is a sheep, this person is a goat." It's, it's a broader picture that, yes, has some implications for individual personal judgment, but when we read too much of that individual personal judgment into this parable that doesn't seem to be there, that's where we start to, like, rob individual Christians of their assurance. We start to say, like, "Did you do enough? Did you feed enough poor people or did you not?" That's not really, not really what's at stake here, I don't think.  [00:39:40] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's definitely not. It's, it's important to remember just the beauty of, like, the consistent theological thread that runs all the way through the Old Testament, and then that we might expect, of course, to be manifest in Christ's teachings, which happen exactly here. So he is going all the way back to that covenantal promise seed through Abraham, single seed, many people groups, many ethnicities. In this way, the gospel is ethnic inclusive. And so it is, why wouldn't he say that in this way to express that this is exactly from all time what God wanted to do is gather all people groups to himself? Which means then by the time we get to the end of this chapter in verse 46, and there is this righteousness that... or the righteous that lead or go into eternal life, then of course we're led to believe here either directly or implicitly that that means that there would be some for whom the Pharisees would find it's, like, anathema to receive that kind of righteousness and eternal life are the ones in fact who are getting it. And so even that is scandalous. So the, the whole thing is very much a setup, and I think it's the confusion again of this is Jesus saying again to the Sadducees, like, "You are confused. You do not know the power of God. You, you search for it everywhere else but do not find it in front of you. It, it's he who speak to you. I am he. You think you search the scriptures, but you do not know." Everywhere it feels like he's saying that, and here also he's saying that again, but it's in the setup. And I'm with you. I think that there would've been a lot here that would've, like, just come right off his lips that would've been like, "Say what?" Uh, that would've been, like, offensive right off- Yeah ... the top.  [00:41:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:41:17] Sovereign Separation [00:41:17] Tony Arsenal: And the other, the other theme that plays out really loud and clear here, um, as we start to dig into this is, um, there's a sovereignty to this separation that is baked into, um, the king's right to decide who to keep and who to cast away. Right. So I think we, we, um, understandably read into this an assessment of the productivity or the profitability or somehow the, like, merit or worth of the sheep as contrasted to the worth of the goats. Um, and we read into it like the sheep have utility and the goats don't, so the goats get cast into the- Right outer darkness. That's not really, that's not really what's going on here, right? In a, in an agrarian society, like sheep and goats both have utility. It's not as though, like, sheep are worthless and goats aren't. There's a reason people have goats. Um, th- the, the issue here is that the king has decided that there are those on his right and there are those on his left, and the ones on his right he's gonna keep, and the ones on his left he's gonna cast away. And, and so, um, there's this sovereign election and determination that precedes the rest of this, right? It's not as though he's ... And this is where the personal, sort of personal assessment part comes in. He doesn't look at a person and go, "All right, you did a g- enough good works to qualify as a sheep, so you go ahead and go over-" Right and be a sheep. And you didn't do quite enough, so you're actually a goat, so you go over and you be a goat." He looks at, he says, "Y- sheep, goat. Goat, sheep." You know, he, he's separating them out, and then he describes what sheep do versus what goats do. And I, I, like I'm even drawing some of this language out. The sheep goats part of this is actually only, like, a verse and a half. He then flips out of this parabolic language to now go back to the sort of strictly predictive eschatological ex- like explanatory language. So this is what it's like when the Son of Man is on, on his kingdom. He separates sheep and goats. We read into, and maybe with some good reason, but we read into Uh, we read into the fact that the sheeps go to one side, the goats go to another. Then we sort of like attribute the characteristics of those who go to his right to sheep, and we attribute the characteristics... And I think we do this the wrong way. How many sermons have you heard where the whole sermon is about how sheep are obedient, and they're, they're affable, and they listen, and they, they, they are sweet and kind, and goats are stubborn, and they, they just wreck everything, and they don't listen, right? And how many s- how many sermons have you heard where they talk about, like, well, sheep and goats really look the same in the Middle Eastern context, and the only way you can tell them apart is what, by what they do? I think there's probably some, uh, benefit to thinking through those elements, but Christ does not make that point in this parable- Mm ... at least not directly, right? He said, "This is the activity. Imagine a man who has sheep and he has goats. He takes the sheep, he puts them on one side. He takes the goats on another side." That's what the separation at the end of the time, at the end of time will be like. Then he goes straight back out of the parable language into saying, "This is how the king will actually make the distinction.  [00:44:29] Predestination Before Works [00:44:29] Tony Arsenal: The ones on his left, or on his right, he will say, 'Come, you're blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'" Right? This is predestination language, not eschatological judgment language. The sheep were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Before they did anything bad or didn't do anything good, they were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Then he says, he explains to them, like the context that, as you said before, that reveals that they were sheep all along. [00:45:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:02] Tony Arsenal: It shows them that they were already... Man, I just, just made this connection in my head. This is the parable of the wheat and of the tares- Yep ... coming to fruition- Exactly ... at the end of time. Right. Right? The sheep and the goats were allowed to mingle until the time came when they would be separated, just as the wheat and the tares were allowed to grow up until the time when they would be reaped and separated. This is what's going on. The sheep did things that sheep do. Those on the right did the things that the people on the right would do because they were part of God's blessed kingdom all along.  [00:45:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:35] Tony Arsenal: And then he goes on to explain what the people on the left did not do, not because now they've been put on the left because they didn't do it, but they were shown to have always been a part of that, part of that population. They were always goats because of these things. This shows that they were goats all along, and they did these things or failed to do these things because they were goats all along.  [00:45:58] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:45:59] Works Righteousness Trap [00:45:59] Jesse Schwamb: Let me read another verse. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do." My guess is everybody was with me- ... sounded kind of okay until that last part. And if you had that, like, as we say, like, that theological muscle memory that just made you flex or bristle there, or you had the Spidey Sense, as you say, Tony, good, because that's from 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon. And here's what I wanna say that's shocking, is if we read this passage of scripture that we're talking about as if there's something there that we need to do that proves that we've done enough and that somehow God will be pleased with that, even at the end of time in some small way, some modicum, then we're actually acting way more like Mormons than we are like Christians. That's just the bottom line. Yeah. Because Mormons, if you ask about this verse, rather than try to qualify that last statement by saying, "Well, that's misunderstood," or, "It's really not after all you can do," because of course it begs the question how do you know that you've done enough? How you don't- you've done all the things and that you're, you're exhausted. Their explanation of this is to double down on it and say, "Well, the context of that verse is following verse 23 actually does emphasize salvation only coming through Christ, but it also encourages continued observance of the law of Moses in order to be reconciled to God." Because that's all they could do until Christ fulfilled the law through his atonement. Even that is nonsense. So all of this to say, we have to be careful with this because I, I think you're right. We're aligning, we're running right up on this, and that is I would submit to you that we just get distracted because we always, of course, want to bring something to the party here. The, the salvation cake. We wanna, I don't know, we wanna make it, we wanna do. But God is doing all the things on our behalf. And so as a result of that, I think this parable is actually, it's about the divine prerogative and the agency of Christ in judgment at the end which belongs to him and him alone, and not about these actions. But we get caught up in the actions and we're missing this thri- divine prerogative. I also think that Christ gives this to us to reverse it on us and to show us that he sets about all things. It is in fact his foreordination and his providence. By grace we have been saved through faith, and that in providence being predestined is an act of his great love. And so this shows the extent of that love because those whom he has chosen himself are asking in disbelief as if to say, "When did I do the good works that you required?" And he said, "Well, you didn't because you could never do them apart from me."  [00:48:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:48:38] Jesse Schwamb: And so really that's the whole point. It's just so easy for us to get it twisted and say, "Well, doesn't it make sense that there are two groups?" Well, certainly there are in this passage. And doesn't it make good sense that because he said they did things or they didn't do things, then I just need to be about doing those things. And I think that is unfortunately the adventure in missing the point in this passage.  [00:48:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree 100%. And it's funny 'cause you were reading that and I was like What translation of J- of First John is it? It sound, I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like something you'd read in First John It sounds okay  [00:49:09] Jesse Schwamb: until  [00:49:10] Tony Arsenal: the end. Yeah. No, I mean, like, it literally sounds like First John until- Yeah ... you get to that last part.  [00:49:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:49:15] Tony Arsenal: And, and I think you're right that, um, we'll, we'll explore this more next week, but what has always struck me about this passage is that the, the p- the, the people on His right, I've gotta stop saying sheep, because that's... I just made the point that that's not really what's going on. The people on His right who are called into the kingdom because it was prepared for them before the foundation, because they were elected unto that kingdom. The people on His right, they're surprised at the fact that they did these things. And it, I, I think the works righteousness way of reading this is like, "You better earn your salvation. You better get at it because if you haven't fed Jesus in disguise, then you just aren't gonna make it. At the end of the day- Mm ... He's gonna say, 'I never knew you.'" And it, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes I think intentionally, it implies that we, uh, that Jesus comes to know us because we've done good works, right? When we say, "If you don't do these things, then Jesus will say, 'I never knew you,'" then what you're saying is Jesus doesn't know you apart from your good works. Right. And what the Bible says, what this passage says, just right on the face of it, is that the Kingdom of Heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, or who the Father has elected, who are blessed by the Father before the foundation of the world. Now, obviously the Father had to know those people in some sense-  [00:50:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: right ... before the foundation of the world in order for them to be blessed by Him and for Him to prepare a kingdom. So then to come back to the end of it and say, "Well, there are some of those, uh, who the Father never knew because they didn't do enough work," well, the problem is that those who did the good work, the Father knew before they did the good works. They didn't merit the good works. I mean- Right ... it's funny you, you bring up the, the Mormons, and that's certainly true, but, like, you could substitute in, at least on this regard, right? There are meaningful, important differences between the groups I'm about to say and Mormons, that would be the dividing line between those who are possibly saved and those who are y- definitely not saved, right? You could substitute Arminians, who wanna say God looks down the corridor of time, and the reason He prepared a kingdom in advance for them from the foundation of the world is 'cause He saw that they would do these things that would merit salvation, or He saw that they would make the proper decision to receive His grace, right? Or Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodoxes in a different sense, but similarly who would say like, "Well, yeah, God knows in advance that you're gonna merit salvation, so He prepared- Right ... this kingdom anticipating your merit that you would contribute or your participation or, or whatever." I think in a certain sense, um, you could even apply this to some Lutheran theology, right? Which would say, like, "Well, God prepared this kingdom for you from the foundation of the world because he looked down the corridor of time and he understood that you were not going to resist the grace he gave," right? You were not gonna reject his grace. Um, it really truly only is Reformed theology that can say, "No, God prepared this kingdom in advance for you, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did, such that you made the wise decision to follow Christ that you did. That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you." A- and aga- again, again, like, this is dicey. It gets into, like, logical ordering, but fundamentally, a- as far as I can understand it, every competing view besides sort of a Calvinistic understanding of predestination election has to say that in some sense God prepares the kingdom for you as a response to something you have done, or chose- Right to do or chose not to do. The reality is that this passage is saying, "No To those who are on the right. He didn't separate them based on the fact that they did these things. He just said, "You are on the right, and now to those who are on the right, I say to you, come into the kingdom that is blessed. You're blessed by my Father. Come into this kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." So I think, you know, we're c

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APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. This Thursday APEX Express proudly presents “South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement.” This episode highlights Sandhya Jha, a pastor, founder and former Executive Director of the Oakland Peace Center, and racial, housing, and labor justice activist. In the first half of the episode, we discuss Sandhya's life, their path into organizing, and what they're up to now. The second half is dedicated to their recent project with the South Asian American Digital Archive's Archival Creators Fellowship Program. This episode was interviewed, produced, and edited by Swati Rayasam   Follow @Sandhya Jha on Facebook and check out Sandhya's website https://sandhyajha.com/    APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Listen to the episode live on KPFA 94.1 in San Francisco, 89.3 in Berkeley, and online at KPFA.org.  References throughout the Show and Links: Without Fear Consulting Interfaith Alliance Oakland Peace Center Book – Blueprint for a Revolution Book – The Selected Writings of Eqbal Ahmad Podcast – Bending Toward Justice: Avatar the Last Airbender for the Global Majority The Alliance of South Asians Taking Action – ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer South Asian American Digital Archive Archival Creators Fellowship Program Sandhya Jha's project, you can listen to all of the oral histories here. Solidarity Forever Online Exhibit Arab Resource and Organizing Center Block the Boat No Tech for Apartheid  University of California Labor Center Equality Labs California Trade Justice Coalition NAFCON – National Alliance for Filipino Concerns Filipino Community Center Madhvi Trivedi Patak Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome! You are tuning in to APEX Express—a weekly radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I'm your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we're revisiting an episode from our archives, first aired January 5th, 2023. We're bringing it back this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This one centers Sandhya Jha — a pastor, organizer, and founder of the Oakland Peace Center — in conversation with APEX producer Swati Rayasam. The first half traces Sandhya's path into organizing, from a labor campaign at Johns Hopkins to two decades of interfaith and racial justice work. The second half digs into Sandhya's project with the South Asian American Digital Archive, where she spent a year interviewing South Asian workers inside the labor movement — collecting stories that don't usually make it into the archive. Here's Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. [00:01:00] Swati Rayasam: I'm really excited actually today to talk to Sandhya Jha, who is a really close friend of mine. Hi Sandhya. Hi there. Sandhya is, a Pastor is a consultant and has been working on this really amazing project with the South Asian American Digital Archive that will get into later in the episode. But yeah, Sandhya I'm just really excited to learn more about you and to hear more of your story and, let's just dive in. [00:01:26] Swati Rayasam: Absolutely. [00:01:27] Swati Rayasam: We should first talk a little bit about how we know each other, you have this long organizing background. I've been in the Bay Area for the past seven years and I would be totally lying if I said I have not historically been, or I'm not even currently an active fangirl of yours. You are literally a pastor. You are a movement worker, how did you get involved in organizing? [00:01:53] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. So I am the product of my parents who were generous, compassionate [00:02:00] people who thought about the world beyond themselves, but were never involved in organizing or activism or anything like that. I think for anybody who comes from immigrant backgrounds, it's hard to tell our stories without naming who we come from. Right. And so my father was Sunil Kumar Jha from the village of Tildanga in West Bengal. My mother, who is still alive is Jeanette Campbell Jha. She is from Glasgow. So I come from a mixed religion and mixed race home. My parents chose not to name me Sandhya Campbell Jha not to give me that kind of grounding, but I was called Sandhya Rani Jha, which is a lot to live up to, well, yes, Rani does mean Queen. But it was actually handed down to me, part of the reason they wanted that middle name was it was my aunt's name, Durga Rani Upadhyay and she was the one who really [00:03:00] brokered my mother's acceptance into the Indian family and I think that there was something about being accepted on the Indian side of the family and not for many, many years on the Scottish side. That caused my parents and particularly my mother to double down on making sure I knew who I came from and who I came from was my people in the village of Tildanga. [00:03:23] Sandhya Jha: I grew up in Akron, Ohio, so we immigrated to this country when I was a toddler, in the late 1970s, which was a complicated time for Asian immigrants to be in the Midwest because it was a time that the rust belt was rusting and there was a growing sense that we were the reason. But also I grew up alongside folks who were trying to figure out how to put food on the table. So I think that landscape shaped me in a lot of ways. And I also come from people who grew up in poor working communities. And[00:04:00] when I went off to college, there was an organizing campaign. The board of directors of the university had created a for-profit corporation with the exact same board. [00:04:15] Swati Rayasam: Oh wow. [00:04:16] Sandhya Jha: So that the universities could subcontract all of their catering, all of their custodial work to this… basically Shell corporation. [00:04:28] Swati Rayasam: Are we telling on the university? [00:04:29] Sandhya Jha: Mm, Yeah. Why not? It was Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and I think that's relevant because the tension between Black communities next to Johns Hopkins Medical School and the school itself were very real because this was part of a very long history of exploiting community members. So the workers were organizing, and you know, I had read about activism, I cared about it. I paid as much attention as I could for a high school student. But when I got to college, this organizing [00:05:00] campaign was going, and the workers were really clear, Hey, college kids who are excited about this, we do have a role for you. It's to fill the crowd. It's to cheer us on. It's to when we ask you communicate to the university that our well-being matters to you because they will listen to you in different ways. But the campaign centered the workers and was really clear with us about what our role was because we were the folks with all the privilege by getting to be there, right? We had tons of privilege and it was a really good lesson for me. I am so grateful. The first organizing campaign I was a part of was a labor campaign that understood what it meant to center the people who were the most impacted by injustice and I think that shaped the rest of my career. [00:05:46] Swati Rayasam: And that's so special too because I think for many people who come into organizing, and I will definitely cop to this myself, like coming up and organizing through high school and college level organizing. When you are a student, nobody ever [00:06:00] tells you that actually you are the least useful kind of organizer that exists. Right. You are in this incredibly enclaved community. Your oppressor, the university, all they have to do is wait for you to graduate institutional memory will not keep you. Yeah. Right. And I think that it is, it's this perfect storm of, you have actually sometimes cool ideas, sometimes very rudimentary ideas, but you also have this turnover issue and you have this sense of self import, which often comes with your teens, early twenties. Yep. As you're just figuring all of that out. So Yeah, self differentiation, right? It's a narcissistic phase in our development. . [00:06:46] Swati Rayasam: It absolutely is and I think that's so important, and I can't imagine how my life would be shaped if I didn't have to spend a lot of time unlearning the self import and narcissism that I had gained through student [00:07:00] organizing. [00:07:00] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. No, I am really, really grateful for it. [00:07:02] Sandhya Jha: My first job outta college was working for a member of Congress, which sounds super fancy and pretentious, but, a member of congress from Akron, Ohio. So put that all in perspective. His name, believe it or not, was Tom Sawyer. Oh, wow. What I loved about Tom was back in those days, he believed very strongly that 80% of legislation was nonpartisan and that was the part that he spent most of his time on. He would weigh in with his party, when they were dealing with that 20% pretty consistently. But he was more interested in the stuff that everybody could agree on and I remember for about 15 years after I worked for him, I looked back and found myself thinking that was so naive. How did he not understand where we were about to head with the divisions between the political parties? But at this point in my life, I realize the people I respect most in organizing work keep pointing out that the binary of [00:08:00] left and right actually doesn't serve us very well. One of my biggest heroes in the movement right now is the Reverend Dr. William Barber, [00:08:07] Swati Rayasam: Hometown hero of mine. Yes. [00:08:09] Sandhya Jha: Poor People's campaign from North Carolina. And he always talks about how it's not about right and left. It's about right and wrong. And it turns out that when we engage in organizing with the awareness that there are huge swaths of things that most of us are well served by, we can do better organizing. And that was actually how Tom was legislating. And at a certain point I realized that my deep passion was around racial justice, but the distinct experience I had in a multi religious household was an awareness of how religion was being used as a weapon. I had an obsession. Every paper in college I wrote was about the Christian coalition, this right wing, organizing body in the nineties. So a friend of mine [00:09:00] said, You know, there's an interfaith organization working against the Christian Coalition. And it was called the Interfaith Alliance. Her mom had been a superintendent in Washington state in eastern Washington and was a pretty conservative person by my standards. [00:09:18] Sandhya Jha: But, Dr. Chow believed in multiculturalism and believed in teaching evolution. And the Christian coalition had organized to push her out of her position as superintendent and the Interfaith Alliance of Washington State had supported her in that time. [00:09:38] Sandhya Jha: And so Liz said, you know, they've got a national chapter, a national office. And that's where I ended up, cutting my adult organizing teeth which was great because talk about learning lessons for our current moment where religion is being weaponized in ways that are anti-trans, that are anti-queer, that are anti-women, that [00:10:00] are anti reproductive rights, that are anti-immigrant and refugee. I am really grateful to have experienced the power of multi-faith organizing, around a lot of those same issues. So that was what I did in the early two thousands and then I went to seminary and public policy school, and then I ended up out here pastoring a congregation of 10 people in a building of 40,000 square feet. [00:10:29] Sandhya Jha: And long story short, that's how the Oakland Peace Center was born, was out of this dream of cultivating deeper collaboration among nonprofits who were dedicated to a shared cause. The Oakland Peace Center, which is a collective of 40 different nonprofits committed to dismantling the root causes of violence in our community. I was the founder of that organization and it was when I was pastoring First Christian Church of Oakland that I asked the handful of folks who were members of that church, what they wanted to [00:11:00] contribute to the community, and they said they wanted to contribute peace in the midst of violence. And for a dozen folks to have given birth to a space that in non pandemic years, saw over a hundred thousand people do things like the Lawyers for Black Lives Conference and to do Kingian non-violence training and to be a part of food and clothing distribution, to participate in all the very diverse ways that we can create peace is pretty impressive. [00:11:30] Sandhya Jha: And a couple of years ago, I left the Oakland Peace Center because a colleague of mine said, Anybody can run a non-profit. We need you to do what you're actually good at, and what she meant by that was we need more people of color doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work that is actually grounded in power analysis. That isn't just how do we be nicer to each other in the workplace, but how do we recognize the ways that systems of white supremacy [00:12:00] unconsciously often shape the culture of our workplaces? And what do we do to dismantle that white supremacy culture so that we can be building nonprofits and institutions of higher education and faith organizations, and even corporations that are dedicated to our full liberation, our liberation, the lands liberation. [00:12:23] Swati Rayasam: I mean coming, especially from the place that you come in grassroots organizing and in faith based organizing, what is it actually to transition into this kind of consulting space around racial justice and really interface with a lot of people that I feel like as organizers, we don't really talk to? [00:12:42] Sandhya Jha: One of my favorite things about this shift in my work is I love getting to work with folks who don't think of themselves as organizers, who, it turns out are organizers, Right. I think we sometimes create a cult of here's what an organizer looks like, you [00:13:00] have to be a Martin Luther King or a Cesar Chavez and what I love is getting to work with moms and with teenagers and with folks who think of themselves as caring, compassionate, individuals, and when I go into an organization and work with their handful of folks who care about this issue, the DEI team, I get to teach them how to strategically organize. I get to teach them how do you create culture shift over time? I get to teach them how do you figure out who your allies are? How do you figure out how to move people who are neutral? It turns out that there are a lot more organizers out there than we realize if we don't create one definition of what an organizer needs to look like. [00:13:45] Swati Rayasam: I have been reading this political scholar Eqbal Ahmed, who really talks about the way the burden is on those of us who are deeply committed to movement work, narrow definition people, the burden is really on us to try and [00:14:00] create a liberatory future that feels both achievable. Mm-hmm. and safe for everybody. Because when people engage in mass struggle and in revolution, there are people who are a hundred percent willing to put their lives on the line. People who are willing to die for the cause. And we absolutely need those people. And there are many people along the spectrum who, if you can create a future that feels like it's within their grasp, they will come with you. [00:14:30] Sandhya Jha: Yep. I teach a lot of organizing classes and have gotten a chance to teach alongside my beloved colleague BK Woodson at Allen Temple Baptist Church, they have a leadership institute there. And one of the books we use is Blueprint for a Revolution by Srđa Popović. And I feel like I learned a lot as we read that book together and thought about how to apply it to the work we're doing in Oakland. They talked about how by engaging in nonviolent direct action, [00:15:00] they created space for elders to be a part of their work and youth to be a part of their work and families to be a part of their work. By making the movement playful. They gave people hope and gave people courage because dictators are terrified of being mocked. [00:15:17] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. And I think by being really restrictive or narrow about who we view as actually valuable organizers. And I think labor movements teach us this a lot, right? We really cut ourselves off at the knees on our ability to build a network or to be in touch with the general population, many of whom are more connected than we ever give them credit for. [00:15:41] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Yep. it's part of why I love labor organizing. I talk with a lot of people who are disenchanted with organizing who ask me how I can have stayed involved for the past 25 years. And why I've been able to stay in it is cuz I'm organizing alongside workers and they have [00:16:00] full lives. And the work that they're doing in the movement is so that they can live their full lives. And there's something about having that perspective and recognizing the why all the time instead of getting lost in the weeds of the what. Is so important in this work. I think that has been a big theme of my organizing life is how do we build to the greatest common denominator? As my friend BK often says how do we build towards those shared values that often get erased when we are engaged in the right versus left debate. [00:16:39] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that it is so important and I also think that it's really hard in this moment of what feels like constant trauma and re trauma. [00:16:51] Swati Rayasam: And to some extent especially when we're talking about the left right dichotomy there are real concerns [00:17:00] about safety. Yep. And there are real concerns about security and who you are in community with and who you can find even the smallest level of acceptance from to ensure that you won't have violence visited upon you. And I think that these conversations of united front organizing, Right. trying to bridge across difference mm-hmm. for a shared goal, for a shared liberatory future Yep. Are really important. And they feel kind of impossible to achieve right now. [00:17:31] Sandhya Jha: It's interesting cuz I think that in many ways that is true. There are a lot of conversations that I think people with privilege expect, people who are marginalized to engage in. And those expectations are unfair, what I found very frustrating was the number of people with a lot of privilege who would be like, Ugh, I just can't talk to those people. And I'm like, Then who's going to? Exactly. and so I do think that some of this is about being willing to have [00:18:00] hard conversations in the places where we have privilege and recognizing who's at actual risk and showing up in ways that are protective of who is at risk. But that doesn't mean walking away from people who aren't where we are. Right. Because the fact of the matter is everybody's on a journey. And I have watched at the same time some of the disposability culture in movements write off people without giving them any way to address harm, repair harm, and find a pathway back into community. [00:18:41] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that's why, at least I am feeling really hopeful about, what I've seen over the past couple of years, this really important track into transformative justice and restorative justice, to acknowledge that there is harm that has happened, there are harms that happen every day between people. [00:19:00] And also we are all on our own journey to unlearn the things that we have been taught either directly or indirectly by our upbringing, by our environment and that you cannot easily dispose of people and that people are able to come back into community. Now that comes with a very important caveat that like they recognize the harm. Mm-hmm. that. They have done or how they've been party to it, that they acknowledge that there is healing work that needs to be done both with the person that they harmed and also probably in internally. [00:19:35] Sandhya Jha: Well, and the community, folks who don't do RJ on a regular basis tend to skip the community aspect. Yeah. That there is actually repair that needs to be done with community and there's work community needs to do to figure out how to re-embrace reabsorb people who have done harm in ways that still protect the person who's been harmed. [00:19:55] Swati Rayasam: Exactly. In ways that do not erase the harm that has happened, but [00:20:00] acknowledge, contextualize it and say, Okay, we are patching this and we are working to move forward in step with each other. Absolutely. [00:20:09] Sandhya Jha: Can I just say that one of the other things that I think you and I have in common is a real passion for bringing joy back into the work of Justice I quote Fabiana Rodriguez a lot on this particular thing, because I was at an event she was doing eons ago, and she looked out at us and most of us were activists and she said, Listen, y ‘all you keep inviting people to a struggle. I'm on your side and I don't wanna join a struggle. I want to join a party. And that was like a call to arms for me when I heard her say that. I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. We are so much more fun. Like, I've hung out with people who are anti-trans and anti queer and anti-immigrant and anti refugee. They are not fun people. No, no. We have all of the best parties. So I don't know why we don't [00:21:00] capitalize on that more. So I think the role of joy and justice is so important. And this is why I was so excited to have you on the podcast that I launched recently. [00:21:11] Sandhya Jha: Right. Bending Towards Justice Avatar the last Airbender for the Global Majority. [00:21:15] Swati Rayasam: So literally like bringing it together. Two of my favorite things right, is like TV shows, wholesome TV shows like Avatar, The Last Airbender that I deeply love and organizing. Yes. All the work that I love. And I think it's true You know, what is actually really the important work is to work to build toward a future that is desirable Yep. That people want to be a part of. Yeah. That people can see happen. Yeah. And I think that is a lot of the difficulty that I have seen in some organizing circles. We are so well versed in what we are against and all of the things that are bad that so many people have a really hard time seeing or visioning or communicating [00:22:00] what it is that we are fighting for. Yeah. Right. And it's not enough to say, I'm fighting for a world where we can all be safe. Right. Yeah. I'm not, I'm fighting for a world where we can all take long naps in the middle of the day if we'd like to do that. Right. Yeah. But like really building and visioning that future of like, in this world in which we are all safe, there will be harm that happens. How do we deal with that? Yeah. What do we do with that? How do we make sure that it is able to keep everybody safe and also able to account for the times in which it is not able to keep everybody safe. [00:22:38] Sandhya Jha: Visionary does not have to mean naive. And we need it to be visionary. And sometimes I forget to do the visionary stuff. I've got a colleague, Dave Bell, he's a farmer who is also an anti-racism trainer and we do a lot of work together. He's a white guy who lives in White Swan, Washington, on the reservation and I remember being at a training with him and I [00:23:00] was all fired up and I was so excited about the conversations we were having and the people were really ready to do the hard work and roll up their sleeves. And Dave says to them, I would like to not have to do this work. And I'm like, What is he talking about? This is amazing. We're doing such good work. And he says, I would like for us not to have to talk about racism all the time. I would rather be farming. I would rather be, taking care of the cows in my field. [00:23:26] Sandhya Jha: I would rather be talking about my pottery work that I'm doing badly but learning how to do, I would rather be doing anything than have this conversation. But I don't get to be on the farm with the wheat, with the cows, with my bad pottery until we figured out how to do this anti-racism work. And it was a really humbling moment for me because I also get into that like I'm an organizer, that's my identity space. And it was this reminder of Dave's doing this. So he gets to live in a world where he gets to hang out in the fields and he [00:24:00] gets to, love on the cows. There's something about being reminded that we're doing this so that eventually we don't have to do it. That I think is actually visionary in its own way and it's important. [00:24:12] Swati Rayasam: Moving into a little bit more of the grit of like why I asked you to be on the show today. I met you originally when I moved to the Bay Area when you were the executive director of the Oakland Peace Center because At that time I was doing organizing work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is a 20 year old bay area based organization, that was really founded around the Laki Reddy Bali Reddy sex trafficking. Yep. Caste and labor exploitation case that happened in Berkeley in 1999. And I was just so thrilled to be around and have in community so many rad desis. And you also did work with ASATA, right. Historically and are actively doing work with us. [00:24:56] Sandhya Jha: Absolutely. One of the places I think I invested the most [00:25:00] energy in where we got to spend a lot of quality time in the kitchen was one of the projects, Bay Area Solidarity Summer, an organizing institute, camp, however you wanna refer to it. [00:25:10] Swati Rayasam: Political education, Summer camp. [00:25:12] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. For young South Asian Americans who are committed to activism. What I think was the most beautiful part of that program when I was involved in it, and it's still the case today, is for young South Asians who think that they're the only ones who care about justice issues, who haven't met other people, who are South Asian, and identify as justice seekers first to meet each other and realize that there are people just like them. Then to look around and realize that those of us who are usually 10, 15, 20 years older than them are also committed to the work and have been doing it for decades. And then for them to get exposed to the long history of radical visionary organizing and activism of South [00:26:00] Asians here in the US and also in the homelands of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and diasporic countries all over the world. [00:26:13] Sandhya Jha: There's something about realizing, Oh, you have contemporaries, oh, you have elders, oh, you have ancestors. Mm-hmm. Especially in the face of the model minority lie that so many of us have had imposed on us, this lie that all we are all we're supposed to be is cogs in this larger capitalist machine that are non disruptive, which is why we're allowed to survive. And if we are non disruptive enough, we might even be able to be comfortable. And to discover that there's more to our story than that is so exciting and I love, love, love being a part of that. [00:26:52] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that is like fundamentally one of the most important kind of activities that [00:27:00] happens in the ASATA universe, I was a kid who also grew up thinking that there were no other South Asians like me, or there were no other folks who were interested in justice. I spent a lot of time doing, reproductive and queer justice in the south; I always think about what would it have meant if I came in, BASS for 18 to 24 year olds. Yep. what would it have meant if I had come in at a fresh 18 and been able to basically be apprised of the fact that I have this history Yeah. That it's not just me. And that actually, immigration and white supremacy and neo-colonial culture has created this project of assimilation that all of our parents have been in on, in a way to survive Yeah. And to be safe. And I tell my, I tell my mom that a lot because she's always a little surprised about the organizing work that I do. And I was just like, Your job was to survive. My job is to liberate. Yeah. [00:28:00] You know? Yeah. And I could not do that if you were not so focused on creating that environment for me. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: I love that. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: we'll drop in the show notes, but, BASS – Bay Area Solidarity Summer is solidaritysummer.org. So we'll put that in the show notes as well as ASATA, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action is ASATA.org. And yeah, I think that is a really good segue into how we got involved in this amazing project. [00:28:31] Swati Rayasam: You're tuned in to APEX express at 94.1 KPFA and 89.3, KPFB in Berkeley. And online@kpfa.org. [00:28:43] Swati Rayasam: I think it was Fall 2021 that you and I were talking. Yep. And you were telling me that you were involved in this amazing archival fellowship project. Is run by the South Asian American Digital Archive and [00:29:00] that you were going to do your project about labor. Mm-hmm. and South Asians. Yep. And my immediate, incredibly naive response was, how many South Asians are there in labor? [00:29:12] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. And it's not naive. It's interesting cuz I think that this project actually emerged out of my favorite part of BASS, which was when the young adults would ask what their opportunities were in the world of justice. And I would say, you know, there's a place for us in labor justice. It had never crossed most of their minds. Right. We don't think of ourselves as having a role especially in formalized unions. And so SAADA, the South Asian American Digital Archives has an archival fellows project. And the whole purpose of it is to diversify their archives and collect the stories that are usually overlooked in the telling of South Asian American stories. [00:29:56] Sandhya Jha: And they have done a great job over the years of collecting the [00:30:00] stories of informal organizing, like the Punjabi Taxi Drivers campaign, the Bangladeshi Nail Workers Campaign. Those were informal labor organizing campaigns. That have been really well archived and they're amazing stories. I wanted to make sure that the next generation of South Asian activists knew about the South Asians who were actually part of the formal organized labor movement. [00:30:30] Sandhya Jha: And so I spent this past year interviewing, maybe a half a dozen or so South Asian American workers. Generally, not always, but mostly what would be classified as low wage workers who found a pathway into formal organizing bodies, unite here or the building trades or any number of the formal unions that keep [00:31:00] the labor movement alive across the country today. And I'm really proud of the fact that we do have South Asian workers who have moved up the ranks to be official organizers or to be at negotiating tables. And so that's part of the story I thought it was worth us telling. [00:31:19] Swati Rayasam: And I am, I'm so excited that we get to dive deeper into this project and I really love your framing too, around the three large bins that you have, solidarity, spirit and struggle. [00:31:34] Swati Rayasam: Right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:35] Sandhya Jha: I started out with certain assumptions about what I was going to learn, partly because I've been doing labor solidarity work for 25 years at this point. I really thought I knew what I was gonna hear. And what I discovered was there were these consistent themes across, the interviews. that there were these notions of, Oh, what's meaningful to me is [00:32:00] getting to organize across cultures, getting to organize with people who, on the surface and even deep down are very different than me, but we share this vision of what our lives can be. And so that solidarity message I found really powerful. Also, and admittedly because I come out of a spiritual background, was probably looking for it. I was really struck by how many of the interviews ended up talking about the role of spirituality and shaping people's values. And in a couple of instances, organizers said, what my religion taught me was that religion needs to be challenged. And building up that muscle was what helped me challenge systems of injustice in other places. But others said that their journey with their faith tradition was what guided them into the work of labor organizing. [00:32:52] Sandhya Jha: And then that third bucket of struggle, I think is the lived experience of how [00:33:00] hard it is to take on oppressive systems of capitalism, how hard it is to take on decks that are stacked against us and what it means to have somewhere to turn in the midst of those struggles. I will say there were also a couple of lessons I was surprised by because my South Asian identity is so central to my organizing work, I was expecting to collect stories of people who were proud South Asians, who were also proud to be involved in the labor movement. And I assumed that they would see connections between those things because I certainly do. But what I discovered is for the most part, they were like, Yeah, I'm South Asian. I'm not saying that doesn't matter, but it's not super relevant to my organizing work. My organizing work is about [00:34:00] our cross-cultural solidarity. And that was something I hadn't been expecting that emerged as I did those interviews. Interesting. And I'm really grateful that the South Asian American Digital Archives likes telling all of the stories because I think I promised them that what they were going to get was, we're proud to be South Asian organizers. And what I got was, yeah, we're South Asian, we're proud to be organizers. And the that SAADA is like, yeah, that's part of our story too. [00:34:28] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that's, that I think is incredibly important. We have this really, amazing series of audio clips from your SAADA interviews that really represent a lot of the themes that you were highlighting about solidarity, spirit, and struggle. And I'm just really excited to play them as we talk through these larger themes in your larger project and the experience of South Asian labor organizers. [00:34:55] Swati Rayasam: This clip is from somebody that you and I both know, which [00:35:00] is Prem Pariyar. I was so thrilled that Prem was a part of your project. I think Prem is an incredible organizer, so yeah tell our listeners a little bit about Prem. Prem [00:35:09] Sandhya Jha: It was pretty exciting to get to work with him you know, he moved here from Nepal and in Nepal he had been a Dalit activist and he came to the United States and had this notion that in the United States there is no caste and he was disabused of that notion very quickly as a restaurant worker dealing with anti Nepali bias in Indian restaurants, dealing with caste bias in Nepali restaurants, well dealing with Caste bias in all the restaurants. [00:35:35] Swati Rayasam: Hey, everyone, Narrator Swati here, I just wanted to put in an explanatory comma, a la W Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu to talk about some terms you just heard. Sandhya referenced that Prem was a Dalit activist and also talked about Caste bias. For those of you who don't know, Caste is a violent system of oppression and exclusion, which governs social status in many south Asian countries, although it is [00:36:00] most commonly associated with India. It works on an axis of purity and pollution, and it's hereditary. At the top of the caste system are Brahmins, by the way Sandhya and I are both Brahmin, and not even at the bottom, but completely outside of the system are Dalits who were previously referred to by the slur untouchable and Adivasis who are indigenous to South Asia. [00:36:25] Swati Rayasam: Despite being “illegal” Caste bias, Caste Oppression, Caste apartheid, are still prevalent, both in South Asia and as Sandhya references, in the United States. It manifests in many ways that people experience racial injustice, via socioeconomic inequality, systemic and interpersonal violence, occupation, and through the determination of marriage and other relationships. You can learn more at EqualityLabs.org and APEX currently has a show in the works that delves into this more deeply. Now. Back to Sandhya [00:36:58] Sandhya Jha: What is [00:37:00] delightful to me is Prem went on to get an MSW and is building out amazing mental health resources for Dalit communities for the Nepali community. Seeking to build out a program where there are more and more people in Nepal who are trained with MSW skills. [00:37:21] Sandhya Jha: I met with one of his professors from CSU East Bay where he got his degree and she said, You know, that the entire Cal State system is adding caste to its anti-discrimination policies thanks to the work he started at CSU East Bay. And it was really beautiful to hear that because the focus of my conversations with him were more around how his experiences in the restaurants led him into the solidarity work with nail salon workers. [00:37:53] Swati Rayasam: To just, kick back to the caste abolition work that Prem has been doing, that caste abolition work [00:38:00] at CSU East Bay has been such critical work in these ongoing conversations around caste that have been in the South Asian community primarily, but have been percolating elsewhere. [00:38:13] Swati Rayasam: You know, the state of California filed a lawsuit against Cisco systems Yep. For caste discrimination in their workplace and there have been all these conversations around caste and tech work and interplay that with the no tech for apartheid work. Right. That has been happening in Palestinian liberation circles. Yeah. And really building that solidarity movement. So I think that Prem is an absolute powerhouse Yeah. In that regard. But yeah, let's listen to this clip. [00:38:42] Prem: During that time, I got connected with other community organizer, like workers group. I got connected and so I was connected with nail salon workers, who were exploited at their workplace and with them, [00:39:00] I got to go to the capital in Sacramento. And so I thought I need to advocate for the restaurant workers. that was my first experience, like working with other workers and with the assembly members and like other other policy makers I shared what is happening what kinds of discrimination happening at the workplace. So I advocated for the restaurant workers at that time. I shared my stories and I supported the rights of nail salon workers. I was there to support them and they supported me as well, and it was wonderful. And finally that advocacy worked. And the bill was drafted and it was passed finally. And so it was huge achievement at that time. [00:39:49] Swati Rayasam: I love that. I think that is such a perfect story of when you win, we all win. [00:39:56] Sandhya Jha: And what I also love about it is he goes on [00:40:00] to talk about how he has remained in relationship with those nail salon workers. That they show up for each other, that they take each other food, that they show up to each other's baby showers and birthday parties, and there's this sense of community that emerges out of this shared struggle. And so that's a cross-cultural campaign. They were mostly Vietnamese. There were some Bangladeshi nail salon workers, but it was mostly people from a different culture than his. [00:40:27] Sandhya Jha: But somebody at the Asian Health Services program that he was at, saw his gifts, saw his passion, and he really responded to that in exactly, the most powerful way. I can imagine. [00:40:38] Swati Rayasam: And I think one of the nice things as well about that is that person at Asian Health Services connected Prem in and the Nail Salon Worker group, California Healthy Nail Salon Collaborative, Prem came from Nepal, I'm not sure, but the extent to which his organizing background and how comfortable he was in the US organizing space around labor [00:41:00] issues was probably significantly less that worker group took it upon themselves when they saw Prem come in to say, Oh, you are advocating on behalf of restaurant workers. Great. Why don't you join us? Let's help support and so the nail salon workers saw Prem, saw solidarity with Prem and said, It is our responsibility mm-hmm to bring you into this space to connect you in and to move in, struggle together. Yeah. Toward our shared goals of safety, of health, of rights. Yep. [00:41:35] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. [00:41:36] Swati Rayasam: So, we have this clip from Daljit, tell me a little bit about Daljit. Daljit [00:41:42] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Daljit was an attorney who now reads tarot for people because she needed a break from the toxicity of that career and how it was taking her away from her family. Daljit is a deeply spiritual person and, [00:42:00] as I mentioned before, this theme of spirit showed up in some really beautiful ways in some of the interviews. I loved the way she understood her Sikh tradition as foundationally being connected with the land and foundationally connected with the people who work the land. [00:42:15] Daljit: Agriculture is our culture and the religion that I was born into, Siki, the founder of that faith was a farmer. And so a lot of the scripture, the analogies, the metaphors, the poetry, the music, the songs, the boon, the traditional folk songs, that can be taunting and teasing banter, all that stuff the land is the framework for that. And my most favorite line from the Guru Granth Sahib, our holy book, is, [speaks Punjabi] and that basically means that, the waters our guru, the airs our father, but our mother is Earth. And that's the greatest of all , and that's adherence to ecosystem. That's the [00:43:00] indigenous Cosmo vision that should be paramount. And that's what I try to teach my children. And so I think that's what I was taught as a kid without necessarily being able to pinpoint it, but it was just infused throughout our songs, our music, our food, the Harvest, there's two times a year that our celebrations, whether it Baisakhi or Lohri. It's so connected to the harvest and what is coming out of the soil or not. And you're connected to the cycles of nature. [00:43:28] Swati Rayasam: The connection between nature land, spirituality the way that it shows up in so many faith backgrounds and so many faith organizers, I think is really, really beautiful. [00:43:41] Sandhya Jha: And I love that Daljit Kaursoni who was raised in this tradition, has found her way to Buddhism and is raising her kids with those connections, but without ever losing this grounding in the liberation of the land, the liberation of the [00:44:00] people. [00:44:00] Sandhya Jha: And for that to be a key element of her spirituality, even as her spirituality evolves, I think it's pretty powerful. Tafadar [00:44:08] Sandhya Jha: One of the other people I got to interview ,Tafadar, he's a Bangladeshi American in the building trades and is a deeply committed Marxist. For me, this was a particularly exciting interview because I'm Bengali, so from West Bengal, before partition, Bangladesh and what's now West Bengal, were one state. And so it was fun to get to talk with him and to say, Hey, this is our legacy as Bengalis is radical worker organizing. [00:44:40] Sandhya Jha: And I remember saying to him, Some people in the building trades are not super excited to be working with brown people. And some people in the building trades are a little biased against women. And as a very, very progressive South Asian? How do you navigate that [00:45:00] space? [00:45:00] Sandhya Jha: And he said, Here's the thing is, yeah, I organize alongside some moderate to conservative white folks from New Jersey and he said, but in the building trades, if that moderate to conservative white guy from New Jersey decides he doesn't like my feminist politics, or he doesn't like my brown skin, if he decides that's a reason not to train me, he might die. And it was really interesting because even though I've been doing labor justice work for a long time, it was one of those moments I was like, Oh, right. Your work is very dangerous and you all have to rely on each other whether you like each other or not. That is the magic of organizing that no one ever talks about. This is why we can do cross class, cross-cultural work because literally you have to trust each other with your lives. Right. That was a really clarifying moment for me. And it was one of those interesting moments where I was like, [00:46:00] Solidarity is not a romantic thing. Uh, it is very much a matter of life and death. [00:46:05] Sandhya Jha: And I think that is really important and that exact thing that you brought up, you don't even have to necessarily trust somebody. Right. But you do need them. Yep. Right. And like that really clear understanding that like your fates are intertwined and it is truly in everybody's best interest. If you are trained well, irrespective of whether or not at lunch, I'm interested in sitting anywhere near you. I think that's really great. [00:46:32] Sandhya Jha: One of the things that was really exciting about talking with Tafadar was the reminder that labor organizing and formal union organizing at its best can be in solidarity with other movements really worker justice and housing justice and racial justice are inseparable, on some level. And so, one of the most inspiring stories I got to hear across all of these interviews [00:47:00] was a campaign that brought together folks across the anti- gentrification, the immigrant rights, and the labor justice movement. [00:47:14] Tafadar: It's ironic, building affordable housing with deadly exploitation. And, um, to do this, the de blassio administration, they embark on massive major rezonings of poor areas to relax the local zoning laws to be able to bring in these developments. And a couple of years ago, my, my union in local 79's. Took a very sharp turn towards a community organizing approach because labor can't win on our own, and that's the perspective that all of labor should adopt. In order to fight against the sweatshops in our industry. We united with a lot of community organizations in the South Bronx. [00:47:53] Tafadar: We formed the South Bronx, Safe Southern Boulevard Coalition. And along with these groups, we [00:48:00] protested and did a whole lot of activism, lobbying, community organizing to stop the rezoning of Southern Boulevard, which is a massive stretch in the South Bronx, while the De Blassio administration had succeeded in another part of the Bronx where there's like massive displacement still underway right now. And we were determined to stop it there. And it was a beautiful thing that we can unite because on our end as labor, we had to prevent all these trash companies from coming in and exploiting workers. And we were working with these tenants who are afraid of being displaced. And people generally, we do need revitalization of our neighborhoods. We do need investment. We do need things to be changed and made better. For us. If it's not for us, if it's done without us, then eventually we're not even gonna be here anymore. So we had that alliance going on and not only did we manage to stop that rezoning, we also educated the local city councilman on why his position was wrong and supporting the rezoning. And he eventually completely flipped this [00:49:00] position. And now chairs the land use committee of the city council from the perspective that we educated him on, which it's just been a very interesting dynamic. But, there's a lot of rezoning battles all over the city that's like the main front of anti gentrification struggles. And I've been watching those kinds of campaigns go on since I began organizing about 15, 16. I've seen very different approaches to them, but I've never seen any model really work until that one kicked in where Labor and the community came together. So that was one of my favorite campaigns because of that lesson that we were able to concretely put into practice and set as an example for not only for community movements all over New York City, but also for Labor. [00:49:43] Sandhya Jha: I think this hit me in particular because I've done so much work around antis displacement in Oakland, and my experience has been. [00:49:53] Sandhya Jha: That while for most of us on the ground, the connection between housing justice and labor justice is really clear. When you [00:50:00] start getting into the technical policy issues and the funding issues, the folks who are running labor and housing justice or affordable housing, struggle to find ways to collaborate. And it's been one of my consistent heartbreaks for at least a decade at this point because I work at the intersection of those things and sometimes I despair of us being able to find ways to move forward together. And so to hear a story like this one and to be reminded at core, those justice issues can and must be we already knew, must be, but actually can function together to build a better community. That was actually really life giving for me to hear. [00:50:45] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And I think the point that Tafadar as well brings in the clip of just saying we knew that we could do this, but we knew we couldn't do this without community organizing. Right? Yeah. That labor couldn't do this alone. Yeah. [00:51:00] And I think that is a lot of what, when we talk about solidarity politics, it's not just a backdoor way of inclusion for inclusion's sake, we have to all do this. Actually, it is integral that all of us are involved in any of these campaigns because it impacts all of us. And because we are not going to win with only a single constituency and in the very same way that, Tafadar was identifying that labor couldn't do that alone. in community organizing spaces that you and I have been in mm-hmm. , like we are constantly talking about how we cannot do any of this without labor. Yep. And I think a beautiful example of that is the Block the Boat campaign yeah that the Arab Resource Organizing Center, started back in 2014 and then again during 2021 to block the Zim ship from the port of Oakland. And like this community organization [00:52:00] AROC could not do that without working with the longshoreman to collaborate with the port workers. And I think that when we see the marriage of community organizing and labor organizing, that is when we get the power of grassroots organizing. [00:52:16] Sandhya Jha: Something I wanna mention about the SAADA Fellowship that I was really grateful for: two things. First off, they did a really good job of making sure we got trained in grassroots oral history. So they took really seriously what it meant for this to be justice work. And they made sure we had exposure to methodology that was gonna lift up and honor and foster the voices of people whose stories don't get heard often enough. And that was a really big deal to me. The other thing is they made sure that we had an advisory board, people who are in this [00:53:00] work who could help us, figure out who to talk with, who could help us build out an event strategy. And you helped me build out my advisory committee. Anibel Ferris-Comelo who is with the University of California Labor Center, [00:53:14] Swati Rayasam: Prem Pariyar, a Nepali Dalit restaurant worker, organizer pushing for Caste as a protected category with Equality Labs, a Dalit feminist organization, and a social worker supporting the mental health needs of his and many other South Asian communities in Alameda county. [00:53:31] Swati Rayasam: Will Jamil Wiltchko with the California Trade Justice Coalition, Terry Valen who I did a lot of organizing with at the beginning of the pandemic, around the struggles that seafarers were facing with the onset of COVID-19. And he's the organizational director of the Filipino Community Center in San Francisco. The president of NAFCON which is the National Alliance for Filipino Concerns and just an all in all amazing organizer [00:53:57] Sandhya Jha: the last thing I wanna mention [00:54:00] is SAADA also helped me set up a digital exhibit with Art by Madhvi Trivedi Patak and I wanted to give them a shoutout because they're an incredible artist, but also they grew up in a working class family and didn't get exposed to what it looks like to do labor justice. And so as they developed the artwork to go with the digital exhibit, they got to experience the possibilities of labor solidarity that they hadn't gotten to experience as a child. And so I really loved that Madhvi was a part of this project as well [00:54:38] Swati Rayasam: All of the clips that you shared really identifying, again, these like huge fundamental pillars of solidarity and spirit and struggle. these clips were amazing. They are so rich and so layered with all of these people's varying and different experiences. Really showing in [00:55:00] all of these different walks of life at all of these ages with all of these experiences, that all of these people have this unified and shared identity in struggle, in spirit, and in solidarity for liberation. [00:55:14] Sandhya Jha: And one of the things that I think is worth celebrating is whether they see it as part of their South Asian identity or not. People who do identify as South Asian now have this resource that says there's a home for you in the labor movement. Yes, there are. There is a value to your voice. There is a value to your wisdom, there's a value to your experience in the labor movement. [00:55:36] Swati Rayasam: I think it's a beautiful project. Sandhya, I think it has been an amazing amount of work I've watched you do over the past year. These stories are so wonderful. I really encourage people to check it out. Where can they find your project? [00:55:49] Sandhya Jha: The website's www.saada.org/acfp [00:56:00] /exhibit/solidarity-forever. We'll put that in the notes. We'll definitely put that in the show notes. [00:56:05] Swati Rayasam: I just wanna make sure that we replug your podcast Bending Toward Justice Avatar, The Last Air Bender for the Global Majority and you can find that at tinyurl.com slash ATLA podcast, Capital P (tinyurl.com/ATLAPodcast). And then the last thing that I also wanna make sure that we plug is Without Fear Consulting. [00:56:27] Sandhya Jha: I love working with folks who know that their organization could be a little more liberative, and are, just not quite sure where to start. I love working with a team of folks who want to be about the work of incorporating diversity, equity, and inclusion into the DNA of their organization and I love setting them up so that they can keep doing that long after I'm working with them. So please do find me withoutfearconsulting.com. If you're interested in that. [00:56:58] Swati Rayasam: Amazing. Sandhya [00:57:00] Jha, Pastor, Racial Justice consultant, podcast host, archivist, singer songwriter, amazing cook. You can do it all. I think you deserve a nap. it has been amazing talking to you. I am so glad to be able to hear about your project and also to hear a lot more about your life. [00:57:23] Sandhya Jha: Yay. Thank you so much. [00:57:25] Miata Tan: That was Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. As Swati mentioned, you can learn more about her work in the show notes at kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Speaking of Swati — she's currently working on an episode marking the 25th anniversary of 9/11, out in early September. It'll cover the work of the South Asian Coalition, a national network of organizations working together on South Asian American movement building. Keep an eye out for that one. This episode originally aired January 5th, 2023 — we're re-airing it this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, airing every Thursday evening at 7pm. Thank you for tuning in tonight. APEX Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. A network focused on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Learn more at AACRE.org This program produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's episode was produced by Swati Rayasam. Get some rest y'all. The post APEX Express – 7.16.26 – South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement appeared first on KPFA.

MM-kisojen välierät ja loppuottelun ennakko. Mukana myös visainen alkulämmittely.Tässä jaksossa isäntänä on Pauli Loukola ja mukana vakiojäsenet Samuli Justén, Juho Leskinen, Mirri Pakkanen sekä Tommi Kari.*Alkulämmöt (2:04)*Englanti - Argentiina (5:26)*Espanja - Ranska (34:44)*Finaalin ennakko ja tähti kentällinen (40:53)Jakso nauhoitettu to 16.7. Ota yhteyttä: seinakolmannelle@gmail.comSeuraa Instagramissa:https://www.instagram.com/seinakolmannelle/ (@seinakolmannelle)X:ssä:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠x.com/SKolmannelle⁠

Pääministeri Petteri Orpo (kok.) selvitti eilen A-studiossa toimintaansa muun muassa Garden -hallihankkeessa. Onnistuiko hän vakuuttamaan politiikkaa ammatikseen seuraavia; studiossa tutkija Hanna Wass ja politiikan toimittaja Alec Neihum.Toisessa keskustelussa pohditaan Venezuelan jatkuvasti vaikeutuvaa tilannetta maanjäristyksen jälkeen. Kuulemme avustyöstä ja studiossa keskustellaan maan poliittisesta tilanteesta entisen suurlähettilään Mikko Pyhälän ja tutkija Virpi Salojärven kanssa. Lähetyksessä myös huippuvalmentaja Markku Kanervan arviot jalkapallon MM-kisojen huipentumisesta, kuullaan Iranin ja USA:n hankalasta tulitauosta sekä yrityksestä pelastaa peltosirkku. Lähetyksen juontaa Seppo Kivimäki, toimittajina ovat Veera Nikkilä, Lotta Lautala, ja Birgitta Vuorela. Tuottajana on Petri Kejonen.

Single Parent Stroke Recovery: How Jeff Manuel Is Rebuilding His Life for His Kids Jeff Manuel was working two jobs to provide for his two teenage kids – a full-time role in electrical sales plus evening grocery-delivery shifts – when a stroke at 52 changed everything about how he could show up for them. Four years later, he’s not back to where he was. He’s become someone different, and by his own account, someone he likes better. A Normal Saturday Morning, Then Everything Changed Jeff’s stroke happened on a Saturday in March 2022, but the warning signs started the night before, on his last work shift. The next morning he made coffee, showered, and drove to drop off his kids’ things at their mother’s house in West Kelowna. When she opened the door, she immediately knew something was wrong – his face had visibly dropped. A local clinic ran a squeeze test that came back fine and prescribed inhalers for what they assumed was a breathing issue. It wasn’t until Jeff tried to pick up oranges with his left hand an hour later, and couldn’t, that they went to the hospital. A CT scan confirmed he’d had a stroke. He couldn’t move his arm or his leg. Raising Two Teenagers From a Hospital Bed Single parent stroke recovery comes with a particular kind of weight: the practical question of who looks after your kids while you can’t. Jeff and his ex-wife were separated but living close by, and when he was hospitalized for three months, she and their children – a boy and a girl, both thirteen at the time – stepped in to support him. She’s been doing a lot for me, and I really appreciate it. What could have been an awkward or strained dynamic instead became a stronger friendship than the one they’d had before the stroke. Jeff is candid about why the timing mattered to him: Thank goodness it happened when I was only fifty-two and not seventy-eight, when they’d got their families all grown up and their own worries. I didn’t want to be a worry to their father. His kids are now nearing graduation, and he stays in touch by text and phone, even though he doesn’t get to see them as often as he’d like. Two Years Learning to Live Again After hospital, Jeff moved into a residential rehabilitation program called Connect Communities, where he spent two years relearning basic independence – from walking to cooking to managing a wheelchair-accessible home. Progress wasn’t linear: partway through, his wheelchair tire caught on a mat and led to a fall that required a hip replacement, adding more recovery time on top of the stroke rehab. The program used occupational therapy milestones to unlock privileges – once he could complete a task within a set time, he earned the ability to grocery shop and cook for himself, working up to preparing a meal every night. That system became his bridge from full-time care toward the assisted living arrangement he’s in now, which he describes less as being stuck and more as “graduating” toward independent living. Managing Pain That Doesn’t Go Away Chronic pain has been one of the harder, more persistent parts of Jeff’s recovery – constant pain and tension on his left side, in his shoulder in particular. After four years of prescribed medication, Jeff made his own decision to stop his pharmaceutical pain pills and manage his pain with medicinal marijuana gummies instead, taken a few times a day. He credits them with helping not just with pain, but with sleep and digestion too. This is Jeff’s personal experience and decision, made under his own judgment about his body after years of living with it post-stroke – not a treatment recommendation, and as always, any change to medication should be made in consultation with your own medical team. A Rebirth, Not Just a Recovery What comes through most clearly in Jeff’s story isn’t the physical rehabilitation – it’s the internal shift alongside it. He describes the last ten years before his stroke as a period of grief he hadn’t fully processed, following the deaths of his mother and sister, and a tendency to put himself first that he says didn’t serve his family. The stroke, paradoxically, became the catalyst for the opposite: I’d like myself again because I know I’m a good person. He talks about his recovery in openly spiritual terms – leaning on his mother’s belief that “everything happens for a reason,” and describing his body’s limitations as temporary: “This is only part of your meat suit.” He’s quick to add that this reframing isn’t about denying the hard days. It’s about noticing small, cumulative wins: Sometimes you’re not aware of what’s happening, and then you think about it – I couldn’t do that yesterday, now I can. What Keeps Him Going Jeff found Recovery After Stroke the same way many listeners do – searching for answers in a hospital bed, trying to understand what had just happened to him. I’ve seen so many other people going through it. It really did help me. Now, four years on, he’s paying that forward by sharing his own story, pain and all, with the same honesty he found helpful when he needed it most. If Jeff’s story resonates with your own recovery – or your own path back to being fully present for the people who depend on you – Bill’s book, The Unexpected Way That A Stroke Became The Best Thing That Happened, digs deeper into this kind of transformation: recoveryafterstroke.com/book. If this show has helped you, you can support it directly at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Jeff Manuel: Raising My Kids Through a Stroke and Learning to Like Myself Again (Interview) A single dad’s 4-year journey from hospital to independence – raising his kids, relearning to cook, and rebuilding who he is. Highlights: 00:00 Jeff’s Journey: Single Parent Stroke Recovery04:01 The Day of the Stroke06:42 Personal Transformation Post-Stroke09:03 Rewiring the Brain and Recovery11:04 Support During Recovery13:32 Mindset and Spiritual Growth15:25 Challenges of Recovery18:52 Personal Transformation and Reflection20:24 Daily Life in Assisted Living24:01 Pain Management and Coping Strategies26:28 Future Aspirations and Independence28:13 Finding Community and Sharing Stories Transcript: Jeff’s Journey: Single Parent Stroke Recovery Jeff Manuel (00:00)Once you get over what has happened, you become a better person. I like myself again because I know I’m a good person. if it takes another four or five years to walk again, it takes that. But if I can get as many tools into my tool chest, I can use later in life. Bill Gasiamis (00:18)Welcome back Recovery After Stroke. I’m Bill Gassiamis. My guest today is Jeff Manuel, a single father of two teenagers who was working two jobs full time in electrical sales plus evening grocery delivery when he had a stroke at 52 that left him with left-side paralysis. Jeff describes his stroke as involving a clot and possibly a bleed as well. The exact clinical picture is something we talked through together in the episode. We get into what it’s like raising teenagers through three months in hospital and two years in residential rehab, and how his relationship with his ex-wife has changed since the stroke, how he’s learned to cook again with one hand and the pain management approach he’s landed for himself after four years of recovery. Quick note before we dive in, if you’re feeling stuck in your own recovery, I now offer one-on-one coaching for stroke survivors. It’s not therapy or medical treatment, it’s lived experience support, structure, accountability, and someone who’s actually been where you are, having survived three strokes myself. I only work with a small number of people at a time, so it stays meaningful. You can apply at recoveryafterstroke.com/momentum. If Jeff’s story resonated with you, I also wrote a book about my own experience called The Unexpected Way. That a stroke became the best thing that happened, it is available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. And if this show has helped you, you can support it directly at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. Here’s my conversation with Jeff. BIll Gasiamis (01:58)Jeff Manuel. Welcome to the podcast. Jeff Manuel (02:01)Thanks for having me. BIll Gasiamis (02:01)Tell me a little bit about what life was like before stroke. What were your daily tasks? What kind of things did you get up to? Jeff Manuel (02:10)at the time I had two jobs. I had full time journal day and then after after the day job I would go and And I was I was before I was in a loop to try to catch up and Provide for my family. BIll Gasiamis (02:22)What kind of jobs did you do? Jeff Manuel (02:23)I was my last job was in sales, electrical sales. And I used to I would pick groceries for customers that were just driving by and picking up the groceries. So I’d pick mostly the the dry goods and have it ready for when they eat when they were ready to pick up the groceries. BIll Gasiamis (02:41)Was that the after hours job? Jeff Manuel (02:42)Pardon me? BIll Gasiamis (02:42)Was that the after hours task? Jeff Manuel (02:45)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (02:45)And how many hours a a week would a day would you say you were working then? Jeff Manuel (02:48)I’d be I’d probably have four four four shifts a week. Sometimes less. BIll Gasiamis (02:53)And on the day of one of your shifts. Jeff Manuel (02:54)It was manageable at the time. BIll Gasiamis (02:56)It was manageable. Jeff Manuel (02:57)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (02:57)And on the day of one of the shifts that you went to your regular job and then you did one of those shifts, how many hours would you say that? Jeff Manuel (03:06)Five hours. I believe I worked the five hours that was on my stroke happened on a Saturday. This was a Friday night. So I believe it was five hours. Cause I was started it at five and I finished at ten. BIll Gasiamis (03:07)The added So with your full time job, the regular job, that would be a normal eight hour day and then you would do an additional five hours? Jeff Manuel (03:30)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (03:30)Okay. And w other than work, what else did you get up to? Jeff Manuel (03:37)I’m a single father of two kids. So as much time as I could spend with him I spent with them even though we were not living in the same house. BIll Gasiamis (03:45)Understood. How old were the kids? Jeff Manuel (03:46)Thirteen. BIll Gasiamis (03:47)Two boys, two girls. Jeff Manuel (03:49)boy to give us BIll Gasiamis (03:50)Sorry, Jeff, what was that? Jeff Manuel (03:51)Boy and a girl, I’m sorry. BIll Gasiamis (03:52)A a boy and a girl. And you were working the extra hours to cover everybody and make sure they had everything they needed. Jeff Manuel (04:00)Yes. The Day of the Stroke BIll Gasiamis (04:01)And what what happened on the day of the stroke, Jeff? Jeff Manuel (04:05)Well, I woke up Saturday morning, everything was fine. Put on the coffee machine. Went and got a quick shower. Packed up my clothes cause I was going to to their house ’cause they lived with their mother in West Kelowna. And I was living in Peachland at the time. So I drove on the highway, popped into McDonald’s, cup of coffee, couple of sandwiches, and then they were just two minute drive away. knock on a door. She opens the door and she says, What the heck happened to you? I said, What do you mean? She said your face is on the ground. My whole left side, I guess, just collapsed. So then she says we’re going to the clinic. Is it okay? So go over does a squeeze test. I mean both hands, fine. And I was walking and talking and doing everything. Like nothing happened yet. I said the only the only issue I had was a little bit of breathing problems a couple of months previous. So we prescribe some inhalers and see if that helps. Mm got the inhalers, tried out an hour later. Didn’t do anything for me. Then I tried picking I had a shift at twelve o’clock and this was probably about eleven. And I went into the kitchen and tried picking up oranges with my left hand and I couldn’t grab it and put it in the bag and she said, We’re going to the hospital. So, okay. Then I was getting worried. So I didn’t know what it was. BIll Gasiamis (05:29)And and then you spent some time in hospital doing tests, were you? Jeff Manuel (05:32)Heard me? BIll Gasiamis (05:32)Then you spent some time at hospital, were they testing you? Jeff Manuel (05:34)Interested C D scan. Then he comes down and tells me that Mr. Manuel you had a stroke. Said okay. And then I still can’t comprehend what that actually meant. But I knew it was something wrong. And it wasn’t till the next day that I couldn’t move my arm or my leg. BIll Gasiamis (05:52)Mm-hmm. And how long ago was that, Jeff? Jeff Manuel (05:56)That was in Right of twenty twenty two. BIll Gasiamis (05:59)March of twenty twenty two. Jeff Manuel (06:01)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (06:01)Got it. And you seem to be quite still significantly emotionally upset about it. Do you find that you’re have a a few challenges about dealing with your emotions? Jeff Manuel (06:11)that’s cool. I’m sorry, Bible is not upset. It’s happiness. BIll Gasiamis (06:18)It’s happiness. Jeff Manuel (06:19)I’ve turned a big corner this year And I’m happy I’m happy where I am I’m happy for who I am This is just temporary. I know that. And I’ve learned to live with it for four years and it’s okay. I’m good. BIll Gasiamis (06:34)Lovely, man. So who are you now? Who are you now that you’re happy with who has turned the corner? Personal Transformation Post-Stroke Jeff Manuel (06:42)I’m I’m more of myself a long time ago with the name. In the last ten years it’s It’s just listening to other people having a broadcast and internalizing it and using it for the good. And trying to help people as much as I can. Even it just means a smile and hey you’re doing a great job. That means the world to people. And for some people they can’t say it, so I’d say it for them. BIll Gasiamis (07:02)Mm. So the the the guy from ten years ago wasn’t happy. What was wrong with that guy? Like what is it that he wasn’t doing that wasn’t serving you? Jeff Manuel (07:15)I wasn’t paying attention to what I had to pay attention to my my wife and kids. I was up north and in the North Territories, which is Canada’s Arctic, for twelve years. Awesome years. Beautiful people. BIll Gasiamis (07:32)And what were you doing there? What was the task? Jeff Manuel (07:35)Doing a couple of different jobs. My last job was I was assistant manager of like a Costco. But it was a a locally owned Inn Valley store, so BIll Gasiamis (07:42)I went Jeff Manuel (07:46)When my boss would be out of town I would have to look after the stores and transfer to other parts of the Arctic. BIll Gasiamis (07:46)And were you away from your family at that time? Did that have you away from your family? Jeff Manuel (07:55)No, my family lived right in the same community, so BIll Gasiamis (07:57)Uh-huh. And what you you weren’t satisfied with the way you were going about life? What was the difference between now and then? Because you’re quite co comfortable suggesting that there’s been a shift, a change? Were how how were you not Jeff Manuel (08:13)I was drinking way too much. And then along with grief. BIll Gasiamis (08:18)What was the grief in relation to? Jeff Manuel (08:19)my mother and my sister had passed away from cancer. But like pretty close to tw twenty years ago now. So and recently it’s been my brother. So it’s been I’ve been thinking a lot about that. BIll Gasiamis (08:32)And were you using alcohol to cope before the stroke? Jeff Manuel (08:34)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (08:35)And did that mess up your relationships? Jeff Manuel (08:36)Not necessarily. BIll Gasiamis (08:37)How how was it that you weren’t doing the right thing by your family? Jeff Manuel (08:41)I’m just thinking more about myself than others. BIll Gasiamis (08:44)Putting yourself first. Jeff Manuel (08:46)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (08:46)Mm-hmm. Got it. And then the stroke happened and how did that change everything? Because the stroke made you unwell. It put you in hospital. But how did that shift the way that you behaved and the the way you went about life? Rewiring the Brain and Recovery Jeff Manuel (09:03)Well, in this is my fourth year, so this year I know that my brain is rewiring itself because I can see minuscule changes every single day. And sometimes you’re not aware of what what what’s happening and well then you think about it and I couldn’t do that yesterday, now I can do it. BIll Gasiamis (09:24)understood. And hello Jeff Manuel (09:26)And it’s a it’s a it’s it’s a positive positive thing that happens to you every single day. BIll Gasiamis (09:32)Got it, I appreciate that. So you’re seeing small significant changes that are adding up and you’re getting results from that. And it’s been for years now. Jeff Manuel (09:40)Yes. I’m happy to say BIll Gasiamis (09:41)Understood. That’s excellent. Now, what kind of stroke was it? Did they determine the cause and have they put you on some kind of medication or program to prevent another one? What was the issue with the stroke? Jeff Manuel (09:54)No, it was a hemorrhagic stroke on the the right side. Yeah, I was prescribed a whole bunch of pills and stuff. I guess it helped at the beginning. I couldn’t tell. BIll Gasiamis (10:03)Did they tell you what caused the brain hemorrhage? Do you know? Jeff Manuel (10:06)the the doctor said said there was a clot in my this part of the artery on the my right side and my neck. And he also told me that I had a heart attack the week before. But I didn’t see it, I think. It was just a mark one, I guess. BIll Gasiamis (10:21)So so was So was it a brain hemorrhage or an ischemic stroke? Jeff Manuel (10:27)Maybe it’s a brain hemorrhage. BIll Gasiamis (10:28)Bleed in the brain? Jeff Manuel (10:29)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (10:30)Okay. But the clot usually refers to an ischemic stroke, which is like a very different from a a bleed on the brain. Jeff Manuel (10:39)No, the it was just the vein that was clouded. BIll Gasiamis (10:41)Uh-huh. As well as a brain hemorrhage. Jeff Manuel (10:43)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (10:43)So you were really going through it. You had a heart attack, a clot issue and a brain hemorrhage all at the same time? Jeff Manuel (10:49)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (10:49)Wow. Under. Got it. So how long did you spend in hospital, Jeff? Jeff Manuel (10:55)I was there from march twelfth to June fourth ninth in the hospital. BIll Gasiamis (11:02)About three months. Support During Recovery Jeff Manuel (11:04)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (11:04)And who was there to support you during that time? Because if you’re if you’re no longer married and you live separately from your your former wife, who was by your side? How how did you get through that time? Jeff Manuel (11:18)That’s funny because it was my ex wife and my children. She would bring in to see me and f they would feed me and look after me. BIll Gasiamis (11:28)That’s very cool. She stepped up. Jeff Manuel (11:31)She did she’ve been doing a lot for me. And I really appreciate it. BIll Gasiamis (11:35)Yeah, that is lovely. And then you left from the hospital. At some point they dismissed you or discharged you. Did you have to go into rehab after that to try and get your your left side up back up on board? Jeff Manuel (11:51)Well, in the hospital I was doing really hard but but I couldn’t I could still couldn’t walk or go up steps or anything, but they applied to put me into Connect. It’s called Connect Communities. And there was a whole bunch of different houses you live in. And it’s like you have your own room, you have your shower days, and you get fed three meals a day. But everything was wheelchair accessible. And it was the best two years I had. There was that place was amazing. The people were amazing. And what they offered ya and taught you was amazing. BIll Gasiamis (12:26)Yeah. It sounds like you’ve gone on qu quite a spiritual kind of shift, some kind of a journey, an internal journey as well as the physical healing of your body. Jeff Manuel (12:35)Exactly. This I can live with. This is only part of your meat suit you’re aiming your leg. It all depends on what’s upstairs and how you can teach p other people to live with what’s happening. BIll Gasiamis (12:49)What’s one of the biggest things that you learnt when you were in there, by the time you left after two years? Because at the beginning I imagine you wouldn’t have been as upbeat, as positive as you are now. Mindset and Spiritual Growth Jeff Manuel (13:02)No, because You still are learning your your limits of being disabled or paralyzed. You still gotta live it’s like a regrowth. You learn from a baby again to crawl and then walk. And it’s like up until then it’s learning you think about things if you have to use the watchroom you think about it like twenty five different times before you actually use it. It’s a like a learning process. And I’m just starting to learn again. BIll Gasiamis (13:37)So it sounds like the biggest recovery that you had that’s been the most meaningful then was that kind of mindset part of your recovery, the spiritual part of your recovery. Jeff Manuel (13:47)I I I think once you get over what has happened, you become a better person. But I I’d like myself again because I know I’m a good person. And if it takes another four or five years to walk again, it takes that. But if I can get as many tools into my tool chest, I can use later in life. BIll Gasiamis (14:09)Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I love about that is you’re kind of setting an example for your kids, right? Y they may not know it and Jeff Manuel (14:16)I tried to my best to set an example because I always said, Thank goodness it happened when I was only fifty two and not seventy eight when they got their families all grown up and their own worries. Didn’t want to be wrong about their father. They stepped up and being adults when they were thirteen. BIll Gasiamis (14:34)Yeah. Were you also a smoker then? Jeff Manuel (14:35)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (14:36)Okay. Jeff Manuel (14:36)I did quit three months before going into hospital but I’m back smoking again, so BIll Gasiamis (14:41)You’re back smoking again at the moment? Jeff Manuel (14:43)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (14:44)And drinking? Jeff Manuel (14:44)The occasional drink. I’ve tested my limitations and see where it led. But I don’t I don’t over anything, I’m sorry. BIll Gasiamis (14:50)Can I be can I be Can I be perfectly blunt with you? Jeff Manuel (14:57)Yes, you can. BIll Gasiamis (14:58)Why don’t you reduce the amount of time it takes for you to get on your feet from four years to a s a shorter amount of time? And the best way to do that and avoid another stroke and be a real example for your kids is to stop smoking and drinking. That’ll make you more in a in put you more in the zone of allowing your brain to heal rather than continuously putting it in a space where healing is not possible. Challenges of Recovery Jeff Manuel (15:25)So understood. BIll Gasiamis (15:26)I know the challenge with smoking and drinking is beyond just putting it down and not touching it. I know it’s linked to a lot of other emotions and a lot of other things. I used to smoke and drink as well. But the work to be done is in the it’s in when you don’t have those things to go back to to regulate your emotions or change your mindset, that’s where the work is need to be done. You need to pick up the skills that make it possible you for you to deal with those particular emotions or those particular things that are going on that make you drink, that make you smoke. And that will enable you to also deal with those challenges of the grief that you’ve suffered in the past. And also will simultaneously make the right environment for healing the brain. And that should speed up the amount of time it takes for you to get back on your feet. Jeff Manuel (16:20)That’s gonna be my start processing. BIll Gasiamis (16:22)Yeah. I thought you know, we’re here to be honest and frank, and you’re being honest and frank. And I thought, well, I might as well just put it out there. There’s a lot of people that want to get better after stroke, and sometimes they’re doing the things that are getting in the way of recovery without realizing that they’re getting in the way of their own recovery. And that’s kinda like my job, you know, is to sort of say, Hey, here’s a mirror, pay attention to this. Have you seen this before? Are you aware of this? And and then that way, maybe together. You know, we’ve learned something today and we can overcome and then we can move forward a little better. Jeff Manuel (16:56)That’s good advice. BIll Gasiamis (16:57)Are you back to independent living now? Jeff Manuel (16:59)No, no, no. I mean long term care. I was in BIll Gasiamis (17:02)Yep. Tell me about that. Jeff Manuel (17:03)It’s it’s it’s it’s good for me right now for what I need. two years ago I had broken my my hip, so I had to get a hip replacement. So it was extremely hard trying to get your legs into the bed. BIll Gasiamis (17:17)Did you have a fall because of the stroke? Jeff Manuel (17:20)Not because of the stroke, but there was a a mat that that my tire got jammed into. BIll Gasiamis (17:26)The wheelchair tire. Jeff Manuel (17:27)Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (17:29)man, I got it. Jeff Manuel (17:30)It just slowed down my my mobility a bit in my rehab of the the walking but but it was okay. I got through it. BIll Gasiamis (17:42)Got it. And they did a they did a hip replacement. Jeff Manuel (17:46)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (17:46)Understood. So then there was some rehabilitation associated to the hip replacement as well to get you back on your feet. Jeff Manuel (17:55)Well, caught sorta say get me on my feet, get me in the wheelchair. Yeah. it was another six weeks in hospital. BIll Gasiamis (18:00)Yeah, got it. Okay. Yeah. You had a quite a journey, man. Like a lot of sort of downtime as a result of this condition and then all the little complications and bumps in the road. How have you sort of dealt with that mentally? Have you had somebody to talk to? Have you done some therapy? Like how is it that you’ve been been managing to, you know, wrap your head around all of this stuff? Jeff Manuel (18:30)and my mom always had a good say and she said everything happens for a reason. We just don’t know what that reason is at that time. And it’s like, okay, this had happened to me, so now I’m getting to learn why it happened because this is the rebirth of me. In my journey. I’m not the guy I was four years ago or five years ago. I’m me now. Somebody different. Personal Transformation and Reflection BIll Gasiamis (18:52)Mm-hmm. Had you had you in those last ten years before the stroke, had you forgotten about that side of you, that kind of spiritual element of you that you’ve rediscovered? Was it lost in the grief and in the drinking and in the all the work? Jeff Manuel (19:09)It went away somewhere, I don’t know exactly where it went, but it went away. You know, being being on this on this side of the the grass, I guess, I don’t know how you would say it, but going through the healthcare system, you get to see a whole lot of people. And y and you you can sense their their expressions and stuff. A lot of good people. A lot of good people too. BIll Gasiamis (19:32)How’s your relationship with with your former wife and kids now? Are they nearby? Do you see them often? Jeff Manuel (19:37)And they are nearby, but I don’t see as often as you want. I see at least probably about once a month. Well, we’re in contact, we text each other and phone each other every now and then. to graduate next year, so BIll Gasiamis (19:47)Are the kids in school? they’re graduating, so they’ve been busy with school and Jeff Manuel (19:53)Their friends and stuff, so BIll Gasiamis (19:54)Pretty normal. Jeff Manuel (19:56)Yeah, that’s normal teenagers. BIll Gasiamis (19:57)Yeah, understood. And your relationship with your ex wife, is it very cordial? Do you guys get along, even though you guys are exes and Jeff Manuel (20:05)Yeah. Yeah, we get we always got along, but we’ve been way better friends the last couple of years. BIll Gasiamis (20:14)Yeah. That sounds like it’s a it’s a great relief for you. And also she’s able to really kinda take care and help out with the children. Jeff Manuel (20:24)Exactly. Daily Life in Assisted Living BIll Gasiamis (20:24)What is a day like in your facility there where you live? What what do you guys get up to? How do they keep you occupied? What’s it what’s that like? Jeff Manuel (20:33)There is a there’s a you have breakfast at eight to ten and then lunches from twelve to one and dinners from five to six. And then you have the rec department that do little games and stuff in the activity room. I usually go out and and enjoy the fresh air and the sun. It’s warming up here. much fresh year and San John I can get the better. BIll Gasiamis (20:55)And And do you have a few people that live in the facility with you? Is it quite a large facility? How many people are in there? Jeff Manuel (21:05)yeah, there’s three different floors. I’m on the main floor. And there’s probably BIll Gasiamis (21:10)Mm-hmm. Jeff Manuel (21:13)Probably two hundred people, two fifty in three floors. BIll Gasiamis (21:16)Mm-hmm. A lot of people that I’ve spoken to in the past about those types of facilities get really down about They kind of don’t feel like they should be there or need to be there. How do you manage being there? Jeff Manuel (21:29)I’m not totally at the point where I can go live by myself. Right now I still need I still need this. Until I can afford something that is realistic. And you have to be realistic. You gotta think about things a hundred and fifty times more than you would regularly think about things. BIll Gasiamis (21:34)So it’s a cent. Jeff Manuel (21:47)I can still cook, but Right now I gotta concentrate on being me. BIll Gasiamis (21:51)And getting better. And getting back on your feet. Jeff Manuel (21:54)Exactly. BIll Gasiamis (21:54)So you can still cook, which is awesome. So you adapted to cooking with one arm? Jeff Manuel (21:59)yeah, no problem. As long as you you know what you can do, your limitations, you can do anything. BIll Gasiamis (22:04)What’s the hardest part about preparing food with one arm? Jeff Manuel (22:07)Well, you it’s pretty hard to make a salad with one arm ’cause you can’t hold the tomato or the cucumber with the other. That’s about it. That’s where you get the you can get these the plastic cutting boards that have spikes in So you just lay out your vegetables. And then you can use the one hand to cut it off. BIll Gasiamis (22:27)And is cooking encouraged to cook for yourself or is that just part of your occupational therapy? Jeff Manuel (22:34)at Connect you kinda you led up to being able to cook so the O T would give you a certain task and if you could achieve that task within a certain time limit you you would get X amount of dollars per week to go grocery shopping so you could cook for yourself. usually and every night I would cook a meal for myself. And then that graduated into becoming more self sufficient for myself so I could go in assisted living. So they found a place on the west side in assisted living and I lived there for a year and two years. BIll Gasiamis (22:55)And the Jeff Manuel (23:09)Like just threw you throws your curveball. BIll Gasiamis (23:11)Yeah, it sure does. Jeff Manuel (23:11)And up there, but but you know what? I kinda like it. Because you get to meet people, you have discussions. When you when you’re dying for communication You can talk to anybody. BIll Gasiamis (23:22)Yeah. Your facility there, there’s is there a lot of downtime? Do you guys get to intermingle and connect with each other and share spaces together? Jeff Manuel (23:34)Yeah. We can do that. Until we up in the morning and that we go to bed tonight. BIll Gasiamis (23:40)Yeah. So it sounds like it’s the great kind of a great place for you, like a a like a space between being independent again to kind of help you get through all the things you need to get through before you qu kind of was it like graduate to independence, I suppose. Is that like i is w is that how you would describe it? Pain Management and Coping Strategies Jeff Manuel (24:01)That’s that’s pretty good. I think to me now mentally the better I can become, the better my whole body will become. BIll Gasiamis (24:08)Hmm. What would be the hardest part of this stroke journey for you that that you kind of would be able to recall from all of this journey, the thing that was the hardest for you to deal with or overcome or or be challenged by? Jeff Manuel (24:24)Still still deal with the post stroke pain. It’s the hardest. BIll Gasiamis (24:30)The fatigue. Jeff Manuel (24:31)The the constant pain. BIll Gasiamis (24:33)the pain. Yep. Is that on your left side? Jeff Manuel (24:35)And arm, leg and shoulder, yeah, all on the left side. BIll Gasiamis (24:39)Do they medicate you for that? Do they try and give you some kind of pain relief? Jeff Manuel (24:43)No, I found my own. More medicine. BIll Gasiamis (24:45)Understood. And is that manageable then now the pain? Does it kind of help ease the pain? Jeff Manuel (24:50)Yes, it does. BIll Gasiamis (24:51)Okay. Jeff Manuel (24:52)It eases it away for me and and helps me not think about it. BIll Gasiamis (24:57)Uhhuh. Understood. So is the smoking related to medic medicinal marijuana, perhaps? Jeff Manuel (25:04)No, I ’cause I don’t smoke it. I it’s take the gummies. BIll Gasiamis (25:07)okay. So it’s it’s medicinal marijuana then. Jeff Manuel (25:09)Yeah. Well it’s all legal in Canada, so BIll Gasiamis (25:11)The the Yeah, it’s legal almost everywhere now. And it sounds like it’s actually very supportive of a lot of people that gummies sin seem to be a good alternative to you know, like the the Yeah. Or and also for some people it seems to be a better solution than the pharmaceutical painkillers. Jeff Manuel (25:25)Smoking it. Yeah, these are I I g I s had to stop taking my pharmaceutical pills altogether. BIll Gasiamis (25:40)Why were they causing Jeff Manuel (25:41)After af after four years I should know what’s happening to my body. I didn’t feel no but it no better after four years of taking the drugs. So I decided no more drugs. I’ll just have a gummy, figure out how I feel. BIll Gasiamis (25:53)Yeah. Jeff Manuel (25:57)Yes, this is working. I like it. BIll Gasiamis (25:59)How often do you have to take it? Jeff Manuel (26:01)Mm. Wait, four four times a day. BIll Gasiamis (26:03)Okay. So you notice when it’s starting to wear off? Jeff Manuel (26:06)Yeah, it’s only when it comes to extremes that it would take another BIll Gasiamis (26:09)And it helps you sleep, I imagine. Jeff Manuel (26:10)It helps the whole body. From your digestion and it has helped me. BIll Gasiamis (26:14)Yeah. Jeff Manuel (26:14)And actually sleep also. Sleeping eight, nine hours a day. BIll Gasiamis (26:17)Wow, that’s great, man. Do you have a lot of contact with your medical team, the people who helped you through the early phases? Do you have regular follow ups or anything like that to check in with them? Future Aspirations and Independence Jeff Manuel (26:28)No, sir. I haven’t once. BIll Gasiamis (26:30)Does does the facility there have medical professionals that you can access? Jeff Manuel (26:33)Yes. Does the doctor assigned to me? That comes every supposed to come up every three or four weeks. BIll Gasiamis (26:41)So what’s one of the things that you hope to do after you graduate from being in assisted care to being in independent living? Jeff Manuel (26:52)It’d probably have to be assist lived against. BIll Gasiamis (26:54)So again. Jeff Manuel (26:55)Assisted living. BIll Gasiamis (26:56)Yeah. My question was when you do kind of graduate from being in the assisted living to being independent in your own place again, what’s something that you’re kind of looking forward to be able to do? Jeff Manuel (27:10)The independence BIll Gasiamis (27:11)Can you have guests come and visit you at the facility that you’re at and hang out with you for the day? Jeff Manuel (27:18)Yeah. And if I want, I can transfer in the vehicle and we can go somewhere else. BIll Gasiamis (27:23)Understood. So Jeff, somehow you came across my podcast. What was it that made you do the search and find it? Jeff Manuel (27:29)Well, as soon as I was when I was in the hospital I started searching up stroke and disability and everything started popping up on my YouTube page and then I seen podcast recovery after stroke, so I started watching it and within the last year seen so many other people going through what you you’re going through. It inspired me. It really did help me. BIll Gasiamis (27:59)And then you thought it was time to tell your story. Jeff Manuel (28:00)Yes. BIll Gasiamis (28:01)Yeah. Good move. I really appreciate you reaching out, letting me know what was happening to you, what you were going through, and also joining me on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time. Finding Community and Sharing Stories Jeff Manuel (28:13)Thank you, Bill. Bill Gasiamis (28:14)Well, thanks so much to Jeff for coming on the show and being so open about what the last four years have actually looked like. The hospital stay, the rehab, the setbacks, and the mindset shifts that came with all of that. If there’s one thing to take from this conversation, it’s Jeff’s line. I’d like myself again because I know I’m a good person. That’s recovery in a sentence. Not just getting your body back, but finding your way back to yourself. If you’re feeling stuck in your own recovery the way Jeff once did, I offer one-on-one coaching for stroke survivors, structure, accountability, and support from someone who’s lived it. You can apply at recoveryafterstroke.com/momentum. If you’re a parent navigating your own recovery or you know someone who is, please share this episode with them. My book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened. is now available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. And if this show has helped you, you can support it at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. Thanks for listening. I’ll see you in the next episode. 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Does your schedule seem to weaken during July, August, and even into September? Tiffanie and Kristy dive into both proactive and reactive measurements your practice can do to keep things chugging along. This includes creating a schedule template that works for everyone no matter the season, creating an ASAP list, working on recare before the schedule falls apart, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, and welcome back to another episode. Today it is myself Tiffanie and Miss Kristy. I am always so happy to podcast with any of the ladies here at the Dental A Team. ⁓ but Kristy, you are a favorite. You bring a calm and a sense of peace to my life, and I appreciate you being here for us. It's fairly early in our day on a Monday morning, and ⁓ back.   From I'm just back from vacation. Kristy, you've barely had a couple days back from vacation. So we're really just jumping right in today and knowing that I had podcasting on my schedule. Coming back from vacation was slightly stressful. Remembering that it was with you really truly calmed me. And I was like, yeah, that's not gonna be an issue. Easy peasy Monday morning. So Kristy, thank you for being here. Welcome to the podcast today. How are you? How has your summer been so far?   DAT- Kristy (00:54) Yeah. I'm so happy to be here with you and start our week off like this. it is it's hot here in Arizona right now. So getting this done early and being able to ⁓ be cool while we're doing it is is a relief. But yeah, summer summer's going well so far.   Tiffanie (01:03) Mm-hmm.   That's fair.   Good, good. It is hot here and we've actually had a super mild summer so far. ⁓ we came home, we were in Hawaii last week and we were it was funny because actually the people who live in Hawaii ⁓ were like, you're from Arizona, this must not be too bad. And I was like, actually it really isn't, it just has that added humidity. But we were with ⁓ we were with my fiance's like company puts on these trips and so there were people from all over the country there and you could see the people from the Midwest like   dying and there's I was like, gosh, I guess this is hot. But once you I feel like when you're in the heat when heat is such a normal everyday occurrence, ⁓ living in Phoenix area, when you go to other places like hot is just hot and it we didn't feel quite as affected. But then coming home, this like 101 yesterday felt like 120. Without that humidity, it really is a different it is a different kind of heat. So I I feel you. But you've got your pool   And you've had a ton of pool time, which is awesome and I love I love having you here in Arizona.   DAT- Kristy (02:19) Yeah, me too. And it's I agree with you, Tiff. Everybody's like, it's so hot there. And I'm like, but it's hot here. When you get that humidity and stuff other places, it's like it's it's so different.   Tiffanie (02:20) Good. Good.   Yeah.   Yes,   yes. We had ⁓ some family here over the weekend and one of them said, Yeah, it's hot. He's from Austin. He's like, But you can breathe here. He's like in Austin, it gets so thick you can't breathe. And I was like, This is very true. We can breathe. It does feel like an oven when you're baking those those cookies, you know, you open the oven and it comes straight at your face, but you know, hot is hot. So I agree. Mildish summer but super hot still.   And ⁓ with the summer upon us and beautiful weather, we do love the heat. We do like to get out of town, ⁓ go see some water, some oceans, or really just hang out in our pools. So we do get the summer slumps here in Arizona as well. But I think a lot of the country ⁓ they're really, really traveling a ton. We get a ton of visitors over the summer, ⁓ which is wild, but we really do from like March to November get a lot of travelers here in Arizona. So   With that said, we know that schedules can really fall apart. Even here in Arizona, they do. Unless you're a pediatric practice, my pediatric practices are thriving during the summer because parents are getting all the kids' stuff done. and probably my ortho practices as well. Kristy, you probably have worked with a few of those practices who are probably thriving right now, and I hope thriving the rest of the year. But for those practices that are really, really having that like summer slump.   We thought we'd give some ideas, some things we work with with with our practices every single day ⁓ here at the Dental A Team. So gosh, Kristy, some of the pieces that I see and I and I think honestly, May this year was was weird for a lot of our clients. I think across the Dental A Team, we all kind of all of us consultants said, Are you guys experiencing this? Did your practices have this? And May just kind of was a weird month. It was a down month for a lot of practices.   DAT- Kristy (04:17) Yeah, yeah.   Tiffanie (04:19) And I think a lot of people went on vacations. So for whatever reason, June was a little bit better, but we're into July now and we can kind of see those summer slumps hit July, August. And then in September for most of the country, Arizona, we start going back to school next week, which is wild, mid-July. But for most of the country, they're going back to school end of August, ⁓ towards like beginning to mid September. So we see this weird slump for the next few months. And Kristy, I thought it would be interesting for us to really kind of dive into some things that   we can do as proactive measurements and then also reactive measurements as these things come up. Kristy, I think that dentistry is super reactive. ⁓ and we tend to like sit around and wait. We don't even realize that we're doing it, but we're waiting. We're reactive. We're reacting to decay. We're reacting to periodontal disease. We're reacting to patient scheduling, the patient's canceling, to the phones ringing, to   DAT- Kristy (05:00) True.   Tiffanie (05:16) someone needing something from us. Everything is like a reactionary process, but I really love putting in some proactive measurements to give us back some of that control. I think, Kristy, that is you thrive in all of the areas, but I really think that you thrive in some of these proactive measurements because I I think you're so calm. And and I think both of us thrive in a sense of peace.   And for us, those proactive spaces and controlling as much as we possibly can, like why wouldn't you do it if it's available? So I think that that for you is something that keeps that sense of peace going for you. With that said, there are some pieces that you've worked really hard on in your career becoming a freaking rock star at. So I would love nothing more than to hear from you on how you help guide your   teams and your practices in making sure that they have a schedule, that their schedule is working for them, you know, no matter what time of year it is. What are some pieces that you love to work on with your clients?   DAT- Kristy (06:24) Yeah, well for one thing, Tiff, you know, we we love to project out our year. And so in projecting out the year, we can see those trends of the time of year where maybe, you know, we all like to think of September, but it doesn't have to be just that time of year. You know, there are some areas of the country that maybe ⁓ people go more camping and ⁓ different activities that   Tiffanie (06:41) Yeah.   Uh-huh.   DAT- Kristy (06:53) affect their schedule, right? So with that being said, I love to have a templated schedule that can meet the needs of the practice. If we if we have a scheduling template in place, at least we're doing our part to try to control it the best we can. And so with that too, I always like to think of what big procedures maybe could we drive during that time. You know, maybe it's ortho starts or maybe it's a big case, you know   Because again, from the business owner, the bills don't stop. We have those demands to meet, even if maybe we're closed for a week during that summer month.   Tiffanie (07:33) Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I had a client ask me a few weeks ago why like what else does block scheduling do? If we're already if we're full, right? If our schedule is full and we're getting close to goals, like aside from there being a template that shows where things go and it helps people to be able to schedule, because that's something I love is the the training of the schedule or the ⁓ removing the thought.   process of trying to figure out where to schedule someone. I love where can we simplify things so that I can use my brain power in something else. So I had a client the other day say, you know, okay tip, like try to convince me, why else? Why else block scheduling or productive day scheduling? So Kristy, what is your what is your take on it? Because you've spent a lot of years working specifically in that realm of productive scheduling.   DAT- Kristy (08:24) Yeah. To that point, I I think for the team members, we have to remember that's our sanity. The schedule is our day-to-day operations. And so when we say it's been a chaotic day, truly we probably have to reflect back on ourselves and see what did we do to create that that chaotic day? And remember   Just because we may have seen 30 patients in one day doesn't mean we were productive. And so having that scheduling template is going to give us the best outcome possible for our day. And like you said, Tiff, if we have it plug and play and we teach team members these are the type of things that we put in this type of block, we're gonna we're gonna have a better outcome. And yes.   The component we don't control necessarily is the people, right? But if we build it to have the best outcome, we're certainly gonna be far better off in the long run than we would have been without having. You know, I always like to say if you and I, Tiff, are gonna drive from here to New York, if we don't have GPS, it's gonna be a crazy drive. We may be be going back roads when we didn't need to. So   Tiffanie (09:17) Yeah.   Okay.   DAT- Kristy (09:40) Again,   think of your schedule that way. We're formulating it in the best possible outcome. And again, when we have those slump months, we can change our template for that time to make sure we ensure or to ensure we have the best outcome for our day.   Tiffanie (09:58) Yeah, completely. I agree. I love your GPS analogy. That one always makes me really happy. Especially because my internal GPS is wild and I would be going like I'd end up in California real fast. Like five hours in, I'm like, I'm at the coast. Like I would be in San Diego. So I I do love that one. Now with the productive scheduling as well, I love rules, right? I love their I love it being easy.   And if we're gonna implement a system, we have to have tools that do make it easy that don't, they're not causing more chaos. And and for the short term, right? Implementing something new, there's always gonna be a little bit of chaos. There's always gonna be hurdles, you're always gonna find those spaces. But in the long run, it should make your life easier. And something I come across with that, with the block scheduling is that people become very black and white about it because it's a block and they're like, well, we didn't find a crown, right? We didn't find a crown, so we have a hole in the schedule.   And I love and doctors are fearful of that, right? And and office managers. But mostly doctors are like, okay, cool, but I don't want them to not schedule because they didn't find it. And I'm like, well, that's the wrong thought process, right? We need to back up a couple steps and say, this is our ideal. This is what we want it to look like. And in the event that we cannot fill it, something hasn't come across, which is a completely different episode, different podcast. If you're not finding it, you're not getting it in your schedule.   That's a that's a completely different subject. But if that event has occurred, you didn't fill that hole, then I usually say, Kristy, and I I think we're probably on the same page here, I usually say 48 hours ahead. So two days ahead, fill it with something. I don't want you to put like, don't delete a crown block for an occlusal filling. If you don't have to, like that would be like today, maybe. ⁓ but   DAT- Kristy (11:36) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (11:45) Fill it with something so that we're productive no matter what. And we might not reach goal because we didn't fill it with what we needed to within that production, but we're still a little bit closer and it allows us for same day treatment as well. Do you feel the same, Kristy?   DAT- Kristy (11:58) Yeah, I 100% feel the same way. We have to make our minds go back to when COVID happened and we think of those non-emergent things. And yes, when you have a good templated schedule, you probably are gonna push out some of those occlusal fillings, Tiff, like you were talking about. And it's okay. Unless it was like so blown out, which your doctor's gonna tell you we need to get them in sooner than later. But in those instances, the great news is you're gonna build up your priority list.   Tiffanie (12:13) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (12:28) too. And so when those summer slumps hit, now we've got other other options to choose from as well. So I love that you made that point. And and it goes back to all of us forming those agreements together. And we all have to honor what we said.   Tiffanie (12:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love nothing more than an ASAP list. I used to live and breathe in that ASAP list because it was just so easy. And the way that we do our scheduling at Dental A Team in general, with you know, notating like how how early or how soon we want them to come back, putting dates on it, and then also with the block scheduling, all of those pieces help us to build that. And that's that's another thing I get asked by clients all the time is okay, well, what if   you know, we we are too full and we can't see them. We don't have it available. We you tell within the next two weeks and my next appointment is three weeks. And I'm like, that's fantastic. Put at three weeks and then add a note in there and add them to your as soon as possible list so that you have a group of people who are like, ⁓ great, because Doc wanted to see me sooner than that. Yes, absolutely, let me come in. So I love that you mentioned that. And for your summer slump, like   That's beautiful. Your unscheduled list, your broken appointment list, your ASAP list. I love a broken appointment list because they were already committed at some point. And so they're usually a little bit easier to slide into those last minute ⁓ slots in the schedule. So there's a million things that we could go on with that. But with that said, building those opportunities is huge. And we're in the summer now. And so maybe right now you might be realizing.   that you don't have those opportunities built and you're like, gosh, okay, cool. Sounds great, ladies, but I don't have an ASAP list. Or I don't we, you know, we were so full in the spring, we didn't we weren't able to make recare calls. I hear that one all the time. Well we're too full. So if we make recare calls now, we have nowhere to put them. Like, well, I know. I hate that I hate that statement. And I get it. I've lived it, right? We've all been in office and we've lived that and   DAT- Kristy (14:29) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (14:33) I hated making calls, so I would use every excuse in the book that I could to get away from them. ⁓ but then we would come to a summer slump or a September and Doc's like, okay, well, where are all the patients? We've got 3,000 patients. Why aren't they here? Well, they haven't been contacted in six, eight months because we were full. So now you're gonna start to see as well some of those.   protocols that you have in place, those systems that maybe aren't working quite right, or we just let them slide away. So now might be the time to like re engage that and get those calls going again to try to fill the schedule, but at least get them going and get the systems and protocols in place while you have the time. ⁓ one system, yeah.   DAT- Kristy (15:19) Yeah. Tip you, I was   gonna say you you mentioned something earlier about, you know, our handoffs and creating that sense of urgency to come back. One of the things that I love to do is in your morning huddle, doctor, kind of look ahead, see how far out you are booking. And when you're asking patients to reappoint in two weeks or three weeks, it's more realistic. You know when your next available is. And here's the thing, you know, Tiff, I'm a huge fan of verbiage, but   if you know you're booking two weeks out, give your give your admin team a little bit of grace, like help them with that sense of urgency and, you know, sometimes just saying, Hey, I would love to see Tiffanie back in two weeks. Will you please get her scheduled as quickly as her, you know, schedule and mine can align around that two week timeframe. Then if it's two and a half weeks, patients not like, doctor said two weeks and we have to say, no, we don't have two weeks, you know.   Tiffanie (16:07) Yeah.   Yeah, mm-hmm,   DAT- Kristy (16:18) So   Tiffanie (16:18) yeah.   DAT- Kristy (16:18) look look out and see how far you are booking and help give your admin team a little bit of realistic time framing there.   Tiffanie (16:26) I agree. I think every doctor should know their schedule. They should be looking at their schedule as well as the team. I have a lot of teams that will come in in the morning and look at their schedule and I'm like, gosh, I've done that. I've done that with the schedule that we run where I've got calls all day and I'll come in in the morning and I'm like, ⁓ golly, because I didn't look at it before and I learned real fast to start prepping my day. And so making sure that we're all looking ahead in the schedule is huge. I love that, Kristy.   DAT- Kristy (16:28) Yeah.   Yeah.   The other thing I was gonna say to that Tiff too is ⁓ I I like that you and I know recare is another subject that we can do a whole podcast on, but it truly is a proactive and a reactive model. And so many practices don't work recare until the schedule falls apart. And I I'm just not I'm a fan of always working it every day, both frontward and backward. And you guys don't be apologetic if you're booking out.   Tiffanie (16:58) True.   DAT- Kristy (17:18) You can use that to create that sense of urgency. And that's another way to get patients to stick to your schedule. Because if I if I say, my gosh, Tiff, we haven't seen you since December of last year. And ⁓ by the way, our hygiene is in high demand. We're actually booking into the fall. You're gonna jump on that a lot faster than, you know, if if I say, Well, we have a hole in the schedule today and I thought of you, you know.   Tiffanie (17:25) Mm.   I absolutely   agree. And I think like psychologically what that does as well. If you if you did call or you're calling in to schedule and you're like, gosh, you're it's six weeks before you can see me and they're like, Yeah, we you know, it fills up real fast. What I'll do is I'll call you, you know, as soon as we have an available open if it does. But then when that patient does come in for the recare appointment and their hygienist is like, Hey, let's get you scheduled, they're like, Yes, because I it was really hard to get in this time.   DAT- Kristy (18:10) Exactly. Yeah.   Tiffanie (18:14) So I want to make sure I'm on the books. And so it re-solidifies the urgency as well in scheduling while they're in office. So I think that it helps no matter what to keep that schedule full and it reduces to your point the cancellations last minute because they do know how difficult it is to get in the schedule. I completely agree. I think also making sure that we're ⁓ we've got some sort of proactive measurement around pre-collecting.   DAT- Kristy (18:28) Yeah.   Tiffanie (18:41) is huge and I know there's a lot of pushback on that one as well. But there's so many there there are so many things that you have to pay for first. Like you guys ordering online, everybody orders online and you pay for it well before you get it. There have been so many times my Amazon orders have had to be like completely canceled because it just never showed up, right? It's like being delivered, being delivered for days, for weeks, and then it just never shows up. Brody's got a part for his car he's been waiting on for over a month that's just never shown up that he's paid for.   DAT- Kristy (19:01) Yeah.   Tiffanie (19:10) So I think the idea of collecting for the treatment before it's done can go to the wayside. Like everybody's everybody's doing it in some fashion. And to me, what it does, well, for me personally, what it does is I've already spent the money. Right. And I know that there's like all these like girl math things all over the, you know, Instagram and the social media platforms or whatever. But it truly is once you've spent that money, you've accounted for it being gone. Now thinking about having to spend money.   DAT- Kristy (19:36) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (19:40) stresses me out. And so thinking about spending the money on something I'm not really excited to spend it on, and then something else enters my life. The the bag or a vacation or anything under the sun, something I wanted for the house, or I decided to have a barbecue and invited my whole neighborhood and I spent all the money that I anticipated spending on the crown, well guess what's going to be canceled? But if I've already spent   even a portion of that money, so it's reducing the amount that I'm spending in the future. The psychological aspects of it, you we could do a whole podcast on that, but it seriously changes the game because you've already spent the money. Your bank account has accounted for it being gone. And so you you don't you're less likely to cancel. And so Kristy, I think we both work really hard with our practices to proactively collect something. ⁓ how have you seen   DAT- Kristy (20:34) Yeah.   Tiffanie (20:35) in your dental history, how have you seen that change the game as far as keeping a schedule full and especially maybe during the summer?   DAT- Kristy (20:43) Absolutely. Tiff, I'm I again am a huge proponent of managing things on the front end. I I almost can debunked all of our problems because we have probably caused them either in our verbiage or actions that we do. Inadvertently, of course. We didn't we never meant for it to happen, but it goes back to ⁓ just using verbiage like the reservation fee versus cancellation fee, you know?   Tiffanie (21:10) Yeah. Yes.   DAT- Kristy (21:13) I I would much rather have a reservation fee than a cancellation fee. And again, if we're saying we don't want cancels, you can't focus on the opposite. So why are we why are we saying patients cancel all the time? You're sending the message. It's okay to cancel just by saying that. So here's the other thing. ⁓ I would much rather if a patient isn't solidified on the treatment and they're unwilling to put money down for that reservation.   Tiffanie (21:22) Mm.   DAT- Kristy (21:41) I would much rather know now today than day of because now I have to struggle to fill that spot. And again, it doesn't mean that I'm writing them off if they can't pay for it today or put the reservation down, but it just gives us the opportunity to create more value for that treatment and re enroll them in the process. But to your point, yeah, I'm a huge fan. And you know, look at it from a perspective that you're trying to help your patients, much like you said, Tiff.   Tiffanie (22:09) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (22:11) Even if I had four hundred dollars in savings, I may appreciate splitting two hundred now and two hundred later so it wasn't wiping out that four hundred dollars all at once. So yeah.   Tiffanie (22:21) Yeah. Yeah. And not two   hundred day of service, two hundred later. It's two hundred before service, two hundred at service.   DAT- Kristy (22:27) Yes.   Yes, one hundred percent. It just makes it more manageable and and psychologically, like you said, it's not all coming out at one time. So and there may be patients that are like, no, I'd rather pay the whole thing at now, you know, at one time. Great, let's go ahead and collect that now and you won't even have to stop on your way out, you know, unless something changed, obviously. But you you get where we can we can influence that behavior.   Tiffanie (22:44) Yeah, exactly. Yeah.   Yeah, completely agree. ⁓ so we've got block scheduling. And I and I as you were speaking, I was thinking too, during the summer summer slowdown, if you have a summer slowdown and you're not doing block scheduling yet, it's actually a really great time to start implementing it because your schedule is light, because you can you can put it in and you can start changing and working around it. We have so many even startup practices that come to us and they're like, Well, I don't have enough patience yet. I'm not busy enough yet. I just need everyone. And I'm like, no, this is the   perfect time because you have a blank slate to play with. So let's create it and fill it in again with those 48 hour rules. So I think block scheduling, Kristy, we talked a ton about that, productive scheduling, that's gonna be massive. pre-collecting, making sure we're utilizing our call lists and making sure that all of those systems are in place. This is a really good time to make sure that you have those systems, that they're there and that we start using them. And then quickly a couple of ideas we chatted ⁓   DAT- Kristy (23:45) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (23:57) prior to hopping on here was one was making sure that our confirmations are far enough in advance that we're getting them con confirmed, but also that we're doing it far enough in advance at least two days. I like a week and then three days and then two days, but I want at least two days, if not three or four, to refill a schedule. So when you're thinking about confirmations, think less about how annoying you think you are and think more about what you need in order to build a solid schedule.   and make sure that you guys have what you need in your practice. So I think confirmations are huge. And then Kristy, you mentioned promotions as well, like summer promos. And what have you seen, what have you done and worked with practices on when it comes to summer promotions?   DAT- Kristy (24:41) Yeah, absolutely. Tiff, I think if there's services like especially bigger services, because we know maybe we have a week off this month, maybe you do your Invisalign special. That's a great time to run, or any any promotional items that way. But also you could even have some fun things like, we're doing a Blackstone Grill giveaway scheduled during this this month and get your name in the drawing. Or you know what I mean, get creative and have fun.   Tiffanie (24:47) Mm-hmm.   I love that.   DAT- Kristy (25:11) And use it for a win win. We're getting our patients healthy because we're getting them scheduled, but we're also filling our schedule to meet the practice needs.   Tiffanie (25:20) Yeah.   I actually really love that, Kristy, because normally the promotions I love the I love all of it, but your blackstone, the way that you said that, because normally those promotions are for ⁓ reviews or for referrals, right? So refer a friend and get entered to win. But I loved what you said there when you said schedule this month and be entered to win. So that promotes the scheduling because honestly, I'm the type of person   that I'm like, well, I'm gonna spend the money anyways, so I might as well spend it now and potentially girl math, get this free. So then like my money, but if I me being me, I would split it then I'm like, well, my appointment plus the blackstone, right? Then I only paid $300 for this. Like that is brilliant. As psychologically dental, there's so much that goes into dentistry that is psychology. And it's not to trick people, it's to make it easier   And to make it more fun and engaging for them to say yes to their health. And Kristy, you nailed it with that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (26:24) Awesome. Thank you. Yeah,   it's so funny because literally last week I was talking with clients and I'm like, what's the first thing you always usually hear from patients when they come in? Even like if we ask, how was your day day today? It's like, great, till I got here. And I always say, Well, it's funny because nobody's standing outside the office, like holding a gun to their head saying, You have to go to the dentist, right? But yet they walk in our doors.   Tiffanie (26:36) Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (26:51) So   they're coming for something. Let's just use it as a positive win to get them healthy and meet our needs. Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (26:57) I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Kristy.   And with that, listeners, I encourage you to re-listen to this as many times as you need to, especially if you are driving right now. ⁓ pull off to the side of the road, take notes, get to the office, take notes, but re-listen to this and then pick two. We gave you a slew of things that you can work on. Pick two that you're gonna work on right now. Save the rest maybe for August, ⁓ September, kind of proactively.   measure these out. Kristy, thank you so much for all of your tips today. I truly do love our time together and I love picking your brain. If you're not doing a promotion, I you just I love that. I'm excited for that. So if you're not doing a promotion like that and you have the space within your budget, go do it. But pick two of these things that we talked about today. And as always, we are here to serve you guys in the best ways that we know how to.   We have all of these tips, but we also work on implementing these things with our practices. So while you might hear it here on the podcast, working one-on-one with someone to help implement them can be a real big game changer. So reach out to Hello@TheDentalATeam.com for more tips, tricks, and to talk to us about how to implement these processes. Kristy, thank you so much. ⁓ and we'll catch you next time.  

Rosemary previews Pardalote’s new hands-on blade repair course. EverWind’s Ocean Lake, Canada’s largest wind project, will feed a green hydrogen and ammonia plant in Nova Scotia rather than the grid. Plus BP’s exit from an offshore project in Japan, and the wake-effect lawsuit pitting SSE, Equinor, and Vårgrønn against RWE’s Dogger Bank South. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit striketape.com. And now your hosts Allen Hall 2025: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall. I’m here with Matthew Stead, Yolanda Padron, and Rosemary Barnes is back this week.  Rosemary, you’ve been to a number of training courses over the last couple of weeks. The first off was GWO. What was your experience at GWO training?  Rosemary1: It was the fourth or maybe even fifth time that I’ve done it. Um, I did it a few times in Denmark and then, uh, this is the second time doing it in Australia. also, this was my first time doing first aid in Australia. Last time they did GWO here, but my first aid was still valid from Europe, so I, I didn’t redo it. And it’s like so much about [00:01:00] snakes and spiders and jellyfish But a good, good rule of thumb, not 100% accurate, but good rule of thumb, if it is something from the ocean that stung you, then you put something warm on it, and if it’s something from the land that stung or bit you, then something cold on it, Allen Hall 2025: well, how often do you usually take GWO training? Rosemary1: You gotta do it every two years to be valid. I don’t do it every two years because, um, if you do it every two years, like within two years, then you can do the refresher course. So that’s three days instead of four However, um, because I don’t climb constantly, like often it will be six months or more in between climbs, I’ll just do it before I know that I’ve got a climb. all the other people except for one were technicians who, you know, have been working for a while. So they’re also doing the full course, not the refresher. So they get a little bit more practice than I do. But, um, it’s just not often enough. Y-you know, like every time I go it’s like I, I really feel the need to have the refresher, um, because I’m just not fully on top of it. ‘Cause it’s [00:02:00] not just that you need to know what to do. You need to be able to… Like if you need to use it, you’re gonna be freaking out, you know? This is the worst thing that’s probably ever happened in your life, and now you’ve gotta remember all your training. It’s like you want it to be actually second nature to some extent. So yeah, first day is manual handling, which is v- you know, very– That one’s very easy and I would be happy to never do that again. Like I will always remember that. Um, then you got fire, um, fire safety awareness, and that one’s just fun ’cause you just get to, um, light fires and put stuff out then first aid, which I definitely always want a refresher on. The CPR dummies at this place, they had lights, um, and it lit up green if you were doing it right, and I haven’t used a dummy that was so advanced before, so that was quite good. I realized I wasn’t pressing hard enough. and then yeah, last two days is working at heights training, which is the most intense ’cause you got your harness on all day and, um, you know, climbing up and down and rescuing people. this was Rite Training in Goulburn, and, um, the [00:03:00] instructor’s name was Claire. highly recommend doing that one. Allen Hall 2025: Is that a general requirement in Australia that you have GWO before you can climb? Rosemary1: Like, yeah, they will sometimes, um, let you climb if you are babysat by people. I would not recommend other engineers, like if you’ve never climbed a wind turbine before, like I would really not recommend that you just go up with a team and haven’t done the training because you do need to be able to use a ladder safely and, um, you can, y- you can easily, like even inside the nacelle, you could easily hurt yourself really badly if you’re used to working in an office, uh, you’re upping your danger level by, you know, like many, many, many times by going up a turbine and it’s just something that you gotta take seriously. Allen Hall 2025: How busy are the courses in Australia? Are a lot of technicians trying to get in and get trained?  Rosemary1: No, it’s people that have a job that are getting trained. But there were heaps of techs in this course. There were maybe eight or so, which is also part of the reason why it took a really long time. Allen Hall 2025: So [00:04:00] this week, as we record, y- you’re presenting a blade repair course for engineers and technicians. a completely new area that you’re, uh, going into in terms of offering advice and expertise that it’s really hard to find on the planet. It’s probably a, a, a busy or, or requested course, I would imagine, in Australia, where you just don’t have access to a lot of the manufacturers. Rosemary2: it’s a, it’s a course for just for engineers or technical type people, um, but including hands-on stuff. So the way that I I forced this to come into being was just the last five years. I, um, you know, I started working a lot on wind turbine blade repairs and, um, people would ask me, you know, “Have these repairs been done right?” And the thing is that the only repairs that I had anything to do with when I was working at LM were weirdo ones, right? [00:05:00] Where the normal, like a technician couldn’t, couldn’t handle it. It was outside of, um, yeah, their, their standard, uh, kind of repairs that they can do for whatever reason. and now in the work that we do at Part Load, it’s primarily normal repairs, and I just didn’t know exactly what technicians know. You know, how do they, how do they know whether they can repair it or not? What do they know before they go up there? When are they calling the engineer? Um, all that sort of stuff, like the normal stuff. eventually it became less about me learning, ’cause like I said, I kind of picked up most of it. Um, but now I’ve got staff that I’m training up to be, uh, you know, composites engineers and to work with these kinds of issues. There’s a lot of repetitive tasks involved in what we do when we, like, assess the condition of a wind farm. A lot of what we do is look main- manually looking through photos and thing- if things are classified right or not. I [00:06:00] Found this guy from Direct Wind Services, Jurij Eska. He’s a blade engineer. He’s worked in Europe and then come back to Australia, so a little bit like me. And, um, I just worked with him on a few projects and I’m like, “Oh, okay. Well, this guy, uh, he really gets it.” And I asked him, “How do you, how do you train your technicians? What course do they do? Maybe I can do that course.” And he said, “Oh, we train them ourselves.” And so then I asked him to put this course together. So where we started off the course yesterday, that was, um, uh, an indoor session where I was talking through how are blades designed, uh, certified, tested, manufactured, um, what kinds of manufacturing defects can you see and what do they do about them in the factory? ‘Cause you know that they’re doing a lot of repairs in the factory already before you ever see a, a brand new blade. and then the next three days we’re going to be working on, um, yeah, grinding and [00:07:00] infusions and a bit of a, a bit of theory about, um, composite repairs.  Allen Hall 2025: What do you feel like are those key skill sets that engineers should know how to do, maybe not as well as a, a professional technician that does it a lot, but at least at a beginner’s level should be able to complete them before they start repairing blades on their own and giving advice about how to repair blades? What, what are those key items? Rosemary2: part of it is that I want them to be able to understand what is a bad damage and what’s not a bad damage cause you look a lot at images from the outside, but it’s really about what’s on the inside and how deep it goes is the real thing. So, um, it’ll be about learning, you know, developing some judgment about, um, how bad it can be and how bad it can look on the outside. We’re not gonna be looking at so many real damages ’cause like obviously we’re just dealing with pieces that are in the, um, in the, uh, workshop and Yuri has [00:08:00] made some samples for us, um, purposely made them badly so that we’ve got some, you know, damage to find. Allen Hall 2025: Are you addressing carbon fiber at all? Rosemary2: Uh, I actually haven’t asked about that. I don’t think so. Carbon fiber is, um, is a real pain to work with because it’s conductive. Like, even grinding it makes a bit of a hazardous work environment. We did talk a little bit about the different materials yesterday and, um, about pultrusions. And actually, it turns out Yuri used to work somewhere where they, uh, manufactured pultrusions, and I had always, I was always under the impression that a pultrusion is, you know, like, perfectly s- perfectly straight. That’s the point. And he’s like, “No way.” No way. There’s waviness in the pultrusions  Allen Hall 2025: And on March 3rd through 5th at WOMA 2027, Rosie, you’re gonna give part of this course as part of WOMA, right? Rosemary2: Little, little mini course. We’ll have to decide what, what makes sense to include, ’cause it was… Yeah, I went through really a, a fair [00:09:00]bit about blades yesterday, you know, like why they are shaped the way that they are. So we had to talk about aerodynamics and, um, why they’re made of composite. So we had to talk about, you know, like composite materials, like how, how they, how they work So I don’t know if, uh, people wanna write in comments that m- we should, we should do some sort of, um, poll beforehand to see what are the topics that are most interesting to people, ’cause I think we’ll have a half day, right? So we’ll need to be, we’ll need to be focused. Allen Hall 2025: the description of repairs and what repairs should look like could be tremendously valuable. Everybody who has seen a repair always wonders, “Was that repair done right?” And s- and if you can have some general tools to know, like, “Uh, maybe there’s something not quite right here,” or, “That looks like a solid repair,” that would be a tremendous help to the industry, p- particularly for asset managers Rosemary2: Yeah. And you know what I think is even more useful than being able to pick out when it’s wrong is to be able to know when it’s right. You can– Y-you know, like it is so– [00:10:00] It’s such a relief. Like it takes such a mental load off you when you’re just like, “Yeah, that’s all, that’s all good. That’s normal. Okay, I know that that– I knew that that would happen, so this is not a surprise.” ‘ know, once you know you can make that judgment, you can do it very quickly and focus your attention where it should be, so you don’t need to stress for an hour over every repair. You’re just like, “Yeah. Good, good, good, good, good.” And then, “Mm, please explain why you have chosen to not, not repair this, but just put a Band-Aid over it.” that’s the goal of this training is to get everybody, y-you know, technical people, not people who wanna ever be a blade repair technician. They’ve got their own training that covers what they need to know. But this one is just, yeah, getting people like asset managers or my employees to learn what they need to know about composites, given that they have already got a strong engineering education. So, um, you know, they know a lot of the stuff, but just need to know the composite-specific stuff and wind turbine blade-specific stuff I will run this course again, by the [00:11:00] way, ’cause there was a lot of people who wanted to do it I couldn’t fit in. So it’ll happen at least once. I’ll keep on running it until everybody that wants to do it has, has done it. But, um, yeah, feel free to get in touch  Allen Hall 2025: So if you wanna attend Rosie’s short blade course at WOMA 2027, just visit woma2027.com and register today ​ Allen Hall 2025: [00:12:00] Well, over in Canada, they just approved a, really a wind farm big enough to power a small city, and almost none of the electricity is going to the grid, which is a very interesting aspect to some of the things that are happening in Canada at the minute. So up in Nova Scotia, uh, they’ve conditionally approved the Ocean Lake Wind Project. This’d be the largest wind farm in the province’s history. Up to 158 turbines will rise, uh, generating as much as 1.2 gigawatts of power. But this power is not headed to households in Canada. Nearly all of it will be feeding Everwind Fuels’ green hydrogen and ammonia plant at Point Tupper, where clean electrons will become a fuel that can be shipped across the ocean to Europe. And Matthew, there’s been a lot of [00:13:00] projects like this in Europe that have stopped more recently, particularly in northern Europe and up in Scandinavia, uh, on the hydrogen side. Or at least they’ve slowed them down. Canada seems to be going into that breach maybe to fill that void. And is there a marketplace for this to occur up in Canada?  Matthew Stead: Yeah, I think it’s very interesting. Um, you know, like you say, a number of canceled projects, and in Australia there’s been numerous canceled projects. So I like, um, the analogy or use of the term hopium rather than hydrogen, um, where, um, everyone’s hoping hydrogen will be the answer. Um, although, you know, what I, what I’ve read and understood is that, um, you know, the commercials just don’t really stack up and, um, yeah. So in terms of South Australia anyway, um, there was some major, um, hydrogen, uh, development planned with, um, you know, it, it never stacked up. So, you know, it sounds like a great [00:14:00] idea, um, but I’m not sure that the commercials will ever stack up unless you’ve got that guaranteed offtake for the, for the ammonium Allen Hall 2025: Yolanda, what kind of uphill battle is this to get this wind farm up and running knowing that it’s one customer and that commercial market is a little shaky at the minute? Yolanda Padron: what we saw, they have a lot of ca- caveats, right? So they’ve, they need to secure the customers before they start building and before they do anything, um, behind the meter. But it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s a pretty big wind farm, and it’s pretty far up north. But I mean, we, we talked to someone in, in northern US today who was having icing issues. So I mean, of course we know Canada is no, no stranger to that, if they do make it work, I think it’d be really, really exciting to, to have sort of one technology power another, um, instead of just what we’ve been hearing a lot of the potential data centers and, and just wind po- [00:15:00] powering data centers. Matthew Stead: Why not data centers? You know, seriously, like you said, Yolanda. why not go something that does have commercial demand? Yolanda Padron: we’ve talked a lot about the potential of da- data centers, right? And we’ve talked a lot about people wanting to do them. Um, but there’s also a lot of talk of potentially doing data centers up in space and a lot of talk of maybe what if we do it offshore or, you know. And so I think there’s a lot of what ifs with data centers. Of course, there’s a lot of what if with this, but just from a technology standpoint, I think this is really intriguing to have something that’s, that’s a little bit even more out there than what we’ve heard so far Allen Hall 2025: Is it a build it and they will come type of s- situation here that hydrogen and ammonia may be the, the first offtake, but realistically, if that doesn’t work out, they can still connect to the grid and feed Canada, feed the Northeast of the United States or something else Matthew Stead: Also, um, like Japan has [00:16:00] also expressed strong demand for, um, ammonia, and so, you know, they- they’re on the East Coast, aren’t they? So, you know, shipping it from East Coast to Japan is not gonna be so, so easy. I stick by what I said before. It’s hopium. it’s not a plan Allen Hall 2025: I just saw an article today talking about Airbus continuing on with a hydrogen aircraft, and I think they were gonna work with a Japanese firm to work on that together. Six months ago I thought that died, but maybe it’s still in the offering. Maybe there’s an offtake for hydrogen. B- besides the, you know, replacement for some of the, uh, more unpleasant gases that are used in steel production and in some other industry things, maybe part of this is airplane fuel. Which ammonia is one of those offerings also, right? The, there’s been a number of efforts to turn ammonia fuel into essentially jet fuel. They configure the engines to burn ammonia, which is a possibility. It does seem remote though, [00:17:00] honestly. There doesn’t seem to be a huge pull for hydrogen, and there’s not a, a major market for ammonia at at least at the moment. So I don’t know. It, it’s… When you’re talking about gigawatts of capacity you’re gonna build, you, you hopefully have an offtake  for it  Yolanda Padron: if they designed it for it being not connected to the grid, right, it just is kind of like a behind the meter thing, and then could they later retrofit it into there? Like, how would all that permitting and everything  Allen Hall 2025: I–  well, that’s a great question. I– There are a number of, uh, connections between the United States and Canada at the moment. guess is that when they place this wind farm, they have that alternate route lined up, just like any wind farm in here in the States, that you’ll find them real close to high-voltage transmission lines. Generally, those are the easy ones because transmission lines cost money and take time for permitting. I’m not sure Canada has those kind of restrictions, right? But Nova Scotia is not the easiest place in the world to do heavy construction work, just the [00:18:00] nature of Nova Scotia. It will be fascinating to see how they progress with this, but it’s something to keep an eye on because a lot of other projects like this have slowed down Matthew Stead: Do you remember when some of the OEMs were talking about, um, putting electrolyzers on their offshore wind turbines? So the, the theory, the theory was you’ve got offshore wind turbine, you don’t connect it to the grid standalone, um, and you generate hydrogen or, uh, possibly ammonia on the actual wind turbine. And then every now and then you just decant it, you know, drive up with a boat, you know, plug in the hose, and then suck out the hydrogen or ammonia. So, um, yeah, once again, all of those have gone quiet, haven’t  they?  Allen Hall 2025: speaking of Japan, a global oil giant is walking away from the Japanese offshore wind project, uh, but the project’s not dying. BP has told its Japanese partners it intends to withdraw from a wind farm planned off Yamagata Prefecture, uh, apparently worried about [00:19:00] profitability. The 450-megawatt project sits, uh, just off the coast, and it is led by trading house Marubeni, which says it will press ahead without BP. Kansai Electric and Tokyo Gas remain on board also. So BP’s exit follows really a, a brutal year for Japan, where Mitsubishi has, and some others, have pulled out of, uh, at least three projects so far, uh, over rising construction costs, and I think a lot of that’s tied to inflation. Uh, the ambition’s still there for, uh, for a number of companies, but it’s just getting harder and harder to do projects in Japan. Is this just the nature of the economy in Japan at the moment, or is this more about Japanese policy on the offtake,  Matthew Stead: I, I’m not really deep into the details but, you know, it just appears to me like a blip. I mean, there, I think there’s a lot of commitment in Japan to, you know, carry [00:20:00] out their offshore developments and I, I think this is probably more just a blip, um, and a little, you know, internal corporate, you know, argument rather than a sustained issue on offtake agreements and so forth Allen Hall 2025: Well, Yolanda, how hard is it to keep partners on a wind development in general? Are there a lot of moving pieces there until the turbines hit the water or hit the  earth?  there’s  Yolanda Padron: I think a lot of moving pieces, but not, uh, I haven’t seen a lot of changes once it’s been publicly announced and everything’s, you know, everything’s been signed and everything. Um, I do think this is really interesting. I know we’ve talked a lot about, about having, about the idea of like sometimes people think wind’s really expensive, and the way that we’re gonna make wind work is just making it cheaper for everybody and just optimizing it as much as possible, um, and, and just being, having the turbines be as resilient as possible, right? And I think such a strong player just backing out maybe [00:21:00] will incentivize some of the people in Japan to sort of try to see how they can optimize it a little bit more. I’m really excited to see it. I don’t know. It’d be… I think it’d be a nice it  Allen Hall 2025: Isn’t the bonus to offshore wind the price stability? Although the price may be higher today than you may be happy to pay, the stability of that price is a huge leverage point when you compare it to things like oil and gas or natural gas, um, in particular, which are highly volatile, that for electricity, at least you have this fairly steady source at a fixed price that you can plan out 10 years, 20 years, 25 years, maybe even 30 years. And as batteries become more prevalent on the grid, that the math even gets better over the years. Isn’t that the bonus? And, and if [00:22:00] everybody can focus on the long-term effects to the economy is where all the action will be? Matthew Stead: Yeah, I mean, when I first, um, started looking into wind, you know, 10 plus years ago, I, I won- wondered why. Why would you build offshore with all that expense? And then, you know, it became clear to me just around the, um, you know, the diversity, you know, the, the fact that you might get more wind at times that you don’t get onshore wind, and the fact that it’s more consistent. Um, yeah, and, you know, so those… I- it’s really a trade-off, isn’t it? Between the capital costs and the, um, more reliable, more consistent, um, offshore wind. So I think, you know, I, I was convinced at the start, I thought it was crazy, but then obviously it’s, it’s a, it’s a… it makes sense Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I agree. And I think, uh, depending on where you’re having your offshore wind farm, you run into things that you maybe haven’t run into before, right? I know onshore we run into a lot of things in the [00:23:00]US and Australia that we, you know, the, the turbines just maybe weren’t designed for, or there wasn’t a lot of research being done because it was being done in Europe and, and the conditions are really different. Um, and just the same way, you know, the sea is different in different places. There’s different depths. There are diff- different things that you need to worry about. but yeah, I, I completely agree that there’s a lot more generation, um, offshore. It’s, it’s bigger turbines. Um, there can be bigger, larger costs. You know, if you need to do a blade replacement or something, it, it can get, again, really expensive really quickly. But, but it’s, it’s a trade-off for sure. Allen Hall 2025: We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we wanna talk about a place where wind is being fought over versus projects slowing down ​ [00:24:00] over in the UK, there’s a big fight about offshore wind, and not just about where wind turbines will be planted, but more about how they will affect other wind turbines. So RWE is defending the UK government’s approval of its three-gigawatt Dogger Bank South project, which won its consent order, uh, basically a month and a half ago. Uh, but the developers next door are taking that approval to court. Equinor, SSE, Vårgrön own the neighboring 3.6-gigawatt Dogger Bank wind farm, and they have filed for j-judicial review. Their argument is technical, but the price tag is not. They say wake effects, where one wind farm steals the wind from another due to turbulence, could cut their output and cost them between €500 million and [00:25:00] €669 million over the life of their project. That’s a lot of money, Matthew. A half a million euros is not something to ignore. It looks like this is headed to some judicial court or maybe arbitration. Wake effects, which are actually not that well understood from what I can tell at the moment, there’s a lot of discussion and argument about, uh, how real are they or, or what effect they can have on power output. Uh, there’s a lot of money at stake, and the location of some of these wind farms is pretty close to one  another  Matthew Stead: you know, we always, always talk about, you know, AEP loss and, you know, the, the challenge is actually measuring it. And, um, you know, I’ve heard different numbers, but, you know, plus or minus half a percent of AEP loss, um, appears to me from what– in discussions, you know, the, the limit of what you can actually ever measure on a good day. Um, I just wonder, I mean, while those numbers, you know, €500, um, [00:26:00] million is a, is a big number, um, but what is that as a percentage of the overall output of that, of that facility? Um, I, I don’t know the answer, but, you know, if, if it’s, you know, half a percent, I think you’d be struggling to, um, struggling to justify that, that wake effect loss. I mean, you know, going back to what you said, Allen, you know, there are wake effects of some sort, but it’s a question of how much. I mean, that-that’s why aircraft don’t take off, um, too closely, isn’t it? Because there’s wake effects. Um, so it’s definitely a given, definitely a given. Um, but, you know, how much of an impact it truly is. Um, and I mean, there’s always other variables, you know, variables in the weather, you know, wind patterns, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and how much do this– does this actually compare to those other, other variables?  Allen Hall 2025: Yolanda, how would you even mitigate wake turbulence on an adjacent wind farm? Are there ways to do that today?  Yolanda Padron: I think the, the aerodynamics, Allen, would [00:27:00] be a lot more in your court than, than in mine. Matthew does have a really good point. I mean, what are we… With the UK wanting to ramp up offshore as much as they want to ramp up, right? They’re not going to just cancel a large project, and they need to… I mean, it’s not, uh, there’s a finite amount of space, right? So what, I mean, what, what are you, what are you gonna do? It’s like, it’s what, like, what happens in onshore where you, you really hope maybe that you don’t get a wind farm that’s really, really close by. Um, but you might also want to plan for it. I mean, I know of sites that have le- that lease a little bit of extra land so that way no one else can lease it, or that they can, they can use that to, to travel between turbines. Um, and it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of… Isn’t it kind of just part of it, part of the trade? Allen Hall 2025: it has to be, right, at some point. [00:28:00] The question in my mind about all this is how much wake is there? Is it directly impacting the adjacent wind farm? Is there– are there things that can be done to minimize that wake turbulence? I think the answer is yes, but as wind turbine blade designers, I haven’t seen the same level of wake reduction that we have seen more recently in aerospace. It’s complicated to do some of these things on a wind turbine blade. You’re mass-producing. You’re making a blade a day or a blade in a day-and-a-half timeframe. Are you gonna design this really aerodynamic tip to go on to reduce the wake on a particular wind farm? Probably not, right? So it’s, it’s– is it worth doing that versus the, the cost it would be? So it’s gonna cost 500 million euros in loss to an adjacent wind farm. Do you put that 500 million into the design effort and the molds and [00:29:00]everything else to make these blades different? Uh, it’s a tight trade-off, right? It– from the engineering side. It may be better settled in the courts, honestly. Just it may be cheaper to do it that way. Matthew Stead: Uh, I, I was gonna go down a different avenue. I mean, obviously there’s always curtailment. There’s always curtailment due to grid congestion, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, maintenance. I mean, if they, if they just– when wind is coming from a certain direction, they could just de-rate and, uh, just not absorb as much energy, um, out of the wind when the wind is coming from that sector. And so that would be a way of, um, not modifying the turbine, just de-rating it under a certain wind condition. I mean, the same thing occurs with noise curtailment all the time. Um, so there’s, there’s noise modes. There could be a, a wake loss mode. We should trademark that Allen Hall 2025: Well, you know who’s gonna make money out of this no matter what? The  lawyers.  ​ Allen Hall 2025: [00:30:00] Well, in this quarter’s PES Wind magazine, there are a number of great articles, and you can download the entire magazine and all those great articles at peswind.com. There’s a nice little article from Enerpac Tool Group, and if you’re not familiar with them, they make a, a number of tools that are handy in the wind industry. Uh, and, you know, routine torque checks is kind of a pain, right? And the problem with a lot of those checks is that you have to haul around a heavy hydraulic pump to do it. And so if you’ve ever been to a trade show and seen some of these [00:31:00] pumps, it is a pain. And if you h- have to move around, especially on a w- wind site a lot, you really don’t wanna have a heavy pump that maybe is made for something, uh, more robust. Uh, and you need something that’s portable. That’s what you really need, right? So the Enerpac Tool Group has really created this, uh, LU series they call. Which is a lightweight, portable, hydraulic pump, which is for intermittent work, which is what happens on most wind sites. It’s intermittent. Uh, so the product line director, Angie Wallace, uh, talks about this and says technician feedback has shaped this new tool, uh, from multiple carrying handles and an upward-facing gauge. And that is a big thumbs up from me. When you put the gauge on the side of the tool where you can’t see it, such a problem. It’s like they’ve never used it. Well, obviously, the Enerpac has been talking to technicians, and they put the gauge where the technician can actually see it. Uh, and it’s designed to go through towers and, and tight [00:32:00] spaces. Uh, so this is made specifically for offshore conditions. It’s ruggedized, and it’s a great tool. And a lot of times, Matthew, when you s- see the technicians about and some of the tools they carry, you’re like, man, that is not a good tool for this. That is, that is too much to be hauling around, particularly uptower. It’s nice that we can see some tools that are designed job Matthew Stead: I, I’m completely convinced. I, I don’t have much to say. Um, I mean, my, my day job is, um, you know, designing products and working out what products we’re going to, to work on, and, you know, the customer is the main voice you should listen to, um, at least in the first step. So always listen to the customer first, and I think from what you’ve described, customer first, and then develop the product to suit the application. Yeah, so yeah, I’m convinced  Allen Hall 2025: Yolanda, you’ve seen Interpack on sites, haven’t you? It does seem like I run across them once in a while at some of the US sites  Yolanda Padron: Every once [00:33:00] in a while. I do gotta say I love the idea of when, like, actual, like, boots on the ground people’s feedback is taken into consideration for, for anything really. And so this is, this just makes me really happy because I think a lot of times, like, as engineers, like, we love the idea of just, oh, I’m gonna do this really cool fancy thing, and then it’s just it- no one can use it, or a very specialized person has to be able to use it. And so actually doing, you know, modifying a product so that it, it makes sense for the people using it, and I know we’ve, we’ve all talked about it a lot internally and, and we continue to work towards making it easier and easier on, on the people actually installing the product. Like, this is, this is really exciting. Allen Hall 2025: So if you need a lightweight pump for tightening some bolts uptower, particularly if you’re offshore, take a look at this Enerpac line of LU lightweight series tools. It’s well worth it. And at that same time, you should check out PES Wind magazine. Just go to [00:34:00] peswind.com That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out directly to Rosemary, and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. for yolonda, Matthew, and Rosemary, I’m Allen Hall, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.  ​

Welcome back to the 294th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 294th episode we bring you the first instalment of our very special multi part deep dive into Toronto Fringe 2026 Review Roundup. Join Mackenzie Horner and Ryan Borochovitz as they blitz through the first sixteen shows they saw at this year's festival, unpack all of their thoughts, and commemorate this moment in local theatre history for posterity! Don't forget to stay tuned for Parts 2 and 3, coming soon! TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00:00 – Intro 3:16 – Whose Lineage is it Anyway? An Improvised Shakespearean History 18:44 – Romeo and Juliet, Part 1 - Shakespeare: Say It! 26:42 – At Home with the Bards 36:13 – God Save the Sodomites 45:51 – SHOWSTOPPER 50:46 – Assembly Süggested 58:39 – The Remainders 1:09:40 – Stupid Cupid 1:18:50 – Sinner. A Musical Tragicomedy about Breaking Up with White Jesus1:26:19 – Songs for Moby Dick1:33:54 – The First Vampire1:41:02 – You Choose: An Improvised Murder Mystery1:48:59 – $20 Sandwich Ruins Your Childhood1:55:24 – Every Fringe Show You've Ever Seen All At Once 2:01:39 – U UP? 2:13:26 – CAMP! 2:43:05 – Sign Off Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Treatment options for patients with multiple myeloma are rapidly evolving. In this podcast episode, Jesus Berdeja, MD, and Amrita Krishnan, MD, FCAP, discuss GPRC5D-directed treatment options for patients with relapsed/refractory multiple myeloma, with a focus on talquetamab, a GPRC5D-directed bispecific antibody. Topic areas covered include: Clinical trial updates and discussion of how findings may translate into clinical practice and FDA approvals Treatment sequencing and patient selection Step-up dosing and what to expect in terms of toxicity management when using a GPRC5D-targeted therapy with on-target, off-tumor effects Presenters: Jesus Berdeja, MD Director of Myeloma Research Greco-Hainsworth Centers for Research  Partner Tennessee Oncology Nashville, Tennessee Amrita Krishnan, MD, FCAP Nason Hollingworth Family Chair in Myeloma Director, Judy and Bernard Briskin Center for Myeloma Professor Hematology/HCT Executive Director of Hematology City of Hope Orange County Irvine, California Content based on an online CME program supported by an educational grant from Johnson & Johnson. Get access to all of our new podcasts by subscribing to the Decera Clinical Education Oncology Podcast on Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, or Spotify. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It's another all M&M episode on You Tried Dat?? as three new flavors face off: Lemon Meringue Pie, Peanut Butter Cinnamon Roll, and Cherry Chocolate Cupcake. The gang also discusses robot wars before once again looking at some Yelp reviews. Follow us on Instagram to see pictures of the snacks @youtrieddat.

Ped & Burk record this episode fresh of an iconic pick! Tune in to hear what they found. We recap our amazing July 4th weekends, discuss the weird Kelce/Swift wedding, become elated over Garth Brooks announcing another tour, and say “what the heck” to a mom. Burk shares a new theory AND a perfect song. In the meat, Mm!, we do another edition of half-baked ideas! Lots of unsticking in our business plans. We close the show wondering why Josh Hartnett thought that hair choice was a good idea? Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

今年上半年投資熱潮湧入 ETF，台灣 ETF 總規模已突破 7.8 兆台幣！本集邀請研究經理 Dylan 來跟大家聊聊，今年上半年 ETF 資金流向與市場趨勢，包括：新興市場資金版圖大洗牌、科技巨頭資金流向，下半年表現亮眼的主動型 ETF 與被動型 ETF 究竟該怎麼選？

Travis & Taylor's “wedding” has the internet in a frenzy, and we're breaking down all the over-the-top silliness. Summer House is shaking things up with cast changes (bye, West… so long, Amanda!). Prince Harry popped into London, but apparently Buckingham Palace was fresh out of guest rooms. And the Big Brother 28 cast has officially dropped… and let's just say… it's exactly what you'd expect.   Plus, MM delivers a passionate (and perhaps unforgettable) performance of an iconic ‘80s love song, while Janette confesses she's buying fans… for her already air-conditioned house. Grab your favorite drink, text your bestie, and join us for another episode of ChickChat, where we may be judgey, but we always wish them Best Wishes.   

DAT podcast listeners loved this episode, so we're re-releasing it! The Dental A-Team is hearing a lot about practices' struggles with communication. In this episode, Kiera and Brit discuss ways to enhance communication in a practice, and even reach a breakthrough point. They touch on the following: Establishing ground rules of communication in your office Stop assuming everyone knows how to communicate How to bring up that you want to have better communication practice-wide And more Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today we are bringing you something so special. I am so excited because this is one of our most popular episodes from the archives. Whether you're hearing this for the first time or catching it again, I am so excited because it's jam packed with a ton of takeaways that you can start using right now in your practice. We have released thousands, literally thousands of episodes. And I wanted to start bringing a few of these amazing episodes back for you. So I hope you enjoy. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.   on the Dental A Team podcast.   speaker-0 (00:32) And you guys, I have a really, really fantastic consultant on the podcast with me today. If you don't know her, you should get to know her. Her name's Brittany. ⁓ Britt has joined our team. Gosh, it's almost been a year rolling in on our year, and Britt is just a breath of fresh air on our team. She is somebody that inspires me, ⁓ pushes me to be a better consultant as well. So I'm super jazzed to bring Britt back on the show. Britt, how are you today?   speaker-1 (00:56) I'm good. Thanks for the introduction, Kiera. Always fun to hear what you have to say 'cause it's always delightful.   speaker-0 (01:02) I know. It's probably the best part of the whole podcast, actually. Like I just get a rave on our team on the podcast, which is something I definitely love. So Britt, you are a a unicorn of a human. It's kind of funny, guys. The way we interview consultants is pretty an in-depth process. Like we have an initial call, then you we encourage them to go through an online course, then we do a mock coaching call where they have to actually coach the consultants as if we were a team. And then typically we have them fly out and go to a practice with me to see if traveling's like in their DNA.   Because I've had a lot of people say I can travel and it just is not their thing. Like there are people who can travel and then there are people who like really can travel. And so Britt, you kinda like skated right through that. We interviewed you and it was just this like, yep, we're gonna hire her. And lo and behold, here you are a year later. It just I'm shocked at how great it worked out because you're just a dream and I love it. It worked out so well.   speaker-1 (01:54) But lo and lo and behold, I could actually travel.   speaker-0 (01:58) Well what I I did ask you the question of how many bags do you take when you travel? Because you can tell if somebody's a traveler or not a traveler. But yeah, you are a solid traveler. You and I we trend   speaker-1 (02:11) I've been stuck in a foreign country, yes. So I feel like that's a pretty good qualify qualifier.   speaker-0 (02:17) ⁓ but no guys, if you have not met Britt, Britt is one of the traveling consultants and offices genuinely love Britt. when I when she goes to offices, I love getting emails or text messages from those offices saying that Britt just knocked it out of the park. So today I'm excited, Britt. You are ⁓ really fantastic on this and you and I actually just consulted a practice together. I I need to stop saying we don't say each other that often because you and I actually do run into each other quite a bit on the road. ⁓   we do. It's pretty fantastic. So we were just at a practice together a couple of weeks ago and I thought this was such a cool thing that you did with this practice. So ⁓ just to give a little bit of a background, we were with a practice and communication was just a struggle, which I'm not going to lie, every single office. But you tell me if it's on your end, but every practice before we go visit them as the Dental A Team, we send out an anonymous survey. well it's actually an   Anonymous. It's not anonymous. We know who you are. So they it's it's branded. We know your name. ⁓ but it's a survey sent out to all the team members to find out what are their issues in the practice, things that they love about the practice. And I will tell you, without like it's happened a hundred percent of the time, at least one person says communication on every single office. So I know this is a big deal. Britt, how about for you? I absolutely   speaker-1 (03:37) Every time. Mm-hmm. And it comes up often. And I communication is a constant effort, which is why it comes up often, because it's so important.   speaker-0 (03:47) For sure. I mean, if you think about it, communication is what we do all day long, whether it's with our patients, whether it's with each other, whether it's with our spouses or our families, like communication is super important. I just think it's always interesting when people say communication, I feel like it's this really broad umbrella for problems. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like let's get to the nitty gritty. Is it communication on? Cause there's great communication, but I think it's just such a large, vast net.   that we cast that it's hard sometimes to pinpoint like what is the communication because I'll have practices that will over communicate. Everybody knows this, this, and this, and they still deal with communication. And so with this practice, ⁓ I think it was just a lot of missed expectations, which I found is typically the reason communication comes up. People are expecting or assuming other people will do something. And then when that's missed, that's when people get frustrated. And so it tends to fall back under communication. But Britt,   Take it away, you did a full team training with this office. It was kind of a retreat style, which I don't know what you've been doing right in this world. You're getting a lot of those retreat styles.   speaker-1 (04:48) I don't know either, but I'm glad it's working.   speaker-0 (04:51) So typically our style is like we go in, we'll consult. We're doing like hands on training with an office and then we usually do like a two hour meeting. But Britt's been getting a few offices that are wanting like these three to four hour meetings, which honestly as a consultant, that's like when you guys see your schedule and you just have like crown prep after crown prep after not crown prep, crown seat after seat after seat, where you're like, that's gonna be busy. That's like a four hour meeting for a consultant. I would equate that to like, Whoo, all right, it's gonna be busy.   But kind of walk us through with this practice and other practices. It just wasn't this one particularly, but kind of walk us through what you did to help enhance this communication and really bring some breakthroughs to this practice.   speaker-1 (05:30) Yeah, for sure. I think you you hit one really key point, which is expectations when it comes to communication. And I think the other thing that goes hand in hand with that when expectations aren't being met through our communication is then we start to lose trust with our team members. And we start to lose trust in communication. And so people really just start to shut down. And it's hard to kind of get that motor going again because everybody goes into a protective mode.   And so we're all just kind of walking on eggshells. We're nervous to have conversations that need to be had. And then it just starts to kind of spiral, unfortunately, into a place where we don't know how to get out of it. And so with this office, I was realizing that that's kind of where we were. We had hit the point where we've kind of lost our trust. We talked about some tools on how to have uncomfortable or crucial conversations with team members.   But they were just still really struggling to see like how does that actually go into play because it's kind of like I've been there, I've tried it and I got burned. So   speaker-0 (06:33) Well, 'cause like you said something that I thought was I've never thought about this. Because you said people lose trust and then we spiral downward. And I was thinking like, and what's bummer and also awesome is the only solution to it is communication. So the thing you've lost trust in is the key to your success and freedom and happiness. But if you lose trust in that, there's really nowhere else to go. Because if you're not communicating, things won't get better. So   I had never thought about like the thing that caused the problem is the thing that's going to get you out of the problem as well. But you have to really regain each other's trust. And you're right, it's kind of like, but how? I logically understand it. I conceptually can see this, but how is this really gonna work? And I thought you did a brilliant job of breaking down this how.   speaker-1 (07:20) Yeah. And so it comes down to like yes, at some point someone's gotta put themselves out there and be vulnerable to try it. And it can be really hard when we know there's old habits in play. So we kind of went back to the basics of communication to where we we created and it was with the team, we had their input. All right, what are our ground rules gonna be for communication? Kind of like our rules of engagement.   What are the things that all of us right here, right now today are gonna agree to so that we can feel more comfortable to start engaging conversations with each other that need to happen. And so we created it, we typed it out, everybody signed it. So we all agreed that we're gonna comply with those rules. And it's basic things that just needed to kind of be said and be put out there so that we know we're all on the same page, which are things like we're gonna give each other.   like the benefit of the doubt and give each other the benefit of the doubt, understanding that we're all coming with the best of intentions, right? We all care about this team, we all care about this practice, this business. And so we are ultimately having these conversations to solve things and to work together and to to make improvements. ⁓ some of the other rules we had in place are ⁓ we go talk to the person who can help us solve the problem.   Right. So a lot of times we when we start to lose trust, we'll go and talk about something with our our buddy or our friend that we trust. And at that point we're just gossiping and we're not actually having a conversation with someone who can actually help to solve the problem. So we're actually just feeding into the problem instead of solving anything. ⁓ some of the other rules we had are we speak respectfully, ⁓ which means in volume and tone. ⁓ so we control our volume, we control our tones so that our conversations are productive.   ⁓ we listen to each other, right? So we listen to what the other person has to say and we don't interrupt them. We hear them out. we also put into place, I think, if it gets too heated, like someone can call time out and we can step away for a minute, but we're gonna come back to that conversation that day to solve it, right? And we come together, whatever conversation we're having, we come come to solve it. ⁓ some other rules when someone comes to us with ⁓ a topic or something they want to discuss.   we always say thank you, right? Thank you for coming to me. Thank you for being willing to have this conversation, which also just helps to set the tone. So any team that's kind of struggling can come up with some of their own kind of rules of engagement, the the code of communication that we're gonna stick to and agree to. ⁓ so then we know those are the ground rules and I can be more comfortable, even if I've been burned in the past, to give my team members an opportunity to change and to start to have those conversations.   speaker-0 (10:12) I think it's really brilliant how you did this because hearing this, I wasn't actually there when you did this meeting.   But I know the team. And so what's cool is I can hear rules from different people on that team because sometimes I might not think it's super important to actually listen to somebody. Now you guys might laugh and be like, Kiera, whatever. And I'm like, I'm actually super intuitive 90% of the time and I can pick up on things very quickly. ⁓ and it's just come from years and years of training. But for Brittany, she might want me to actually like that's something super important because she never feels like I listened to her.   And so for all the team members to be able to put their rules into play in a safe place where we're just creating rules of communication with each other versus it being one on one. So it's the entire team working together, building it together. And I would say these are for teams like I think this is a really important like thing to do, no matter what size your practice is, no longer how long you've been in practice. As you were saying it, but it made me think of my family. Like you go to some people's homes and they have like our home rules.   Like we love each other. We have each other's back. And my family didn't technically have something like that. But I knew my mom always said, our home is a place where it's a safe place to be. Like so we wouldn't make fun of each other. We wouldn't yell at each other. Like it was a place like you can get made fun of all day long at school, but you know when you walk through those doors to my parents' house, it is a safe place that all of us are safe to be in. And I just thought like that's pretty much what you did with this practice is you created a spot and ironically, just knowing those things.   can actually fix a lot of the problems because now it's like, okay, great. We all know the rules of the game. ⁓ ironically, Tiffany gave me this really cool calendar and it has a quote. So every day I flip it. And today's quote it says, you have to learn the rules of the game and then you have to play better than anyone else. And I think with this, like, learn the rules of the game. Learn what and how to communicate. And then I really do love that this is play better than anyone else. So listen   better than anyone else does because what's going to happen is I'm not trying to elevate myself above you. I'm really going to listen to Britt and I'm going to listen to understand. I'm not going to listen to respond. Like let me hear what she's saying and then let me like also not come with heated heated emotions on this. Let me come to solve it. Let me come to to really have that. So I think it's important for practices like when you have this, I would say this is like core values two point   Because it's just helpful. We all assume that everyone knows how to communicate with each other, but they don't. We all come from different backgrounds, different lifestyles, different ways to communicate. In my family, it was always one of respect. And I you better believe if we burped at the table, we were doing twenty five push ups. Like I'm not kidding, like it was kind of a joke, but it was just it wasn't this like strict household, but it was one of very high respect. And so I just assume everybody does that. Like of course nobody would burp at the table, like you're gonna have to do push ups. Like obviously. But not   Obviously, people don't grow up the same way. So I thought it was really brilliant, Britt, that you did that. And I've heard from this practice that they've said that they do feel safer communicating with each other and we're rebuilding that trust. And I also think, if nothing else, sometimes I think our dental practices can be little like petri dishes of growth. Like they can teach us how to be different types of humans out in the world with our families, with our communities.   And in the practice, sometimes it's almost safer than even practicing on family members. So I thought you did a great job. Britt if if you were were a practice listening to this, like how would you even go about this? Because it's kind of an awkward thing to say, like, hey, I feel our communication's terrible in our practice and I wanna do this, but nobody else in the practice might think our communication's bad. So like how do you even go about like it's a super awkward conversation that needs to be had. So how do you even like broach this in a practice?   speaker-1 (14:02) Yeah. And I think it can even be approached from maybe it's not like that we've got a problem we've got to fix, maybe in this situation. Maybe it's like, hey, we want to create an environment where our team members felt comfortable being able to communicate and have conversations with each other. Right. So we want to work together and get everybody's input to kind of set some ground rules and help to give each other some guidance on how we can most successfully communicate with each other. And it might even be people who communicate well. Sometimes it's even just giving each other feedback of like, hey.   Pick your timing right, right? In the middle of the day when am running like crazy between room room from room to room, like probably not the best time to approach me about a conversation. I'm probably not going to give you my best response. So finding a time that works or even letting me know, hey, I need to have a conversation. Let's find a time to have it. Even working through just kind of some of those like tips for each other can be really helpful for a team. And it's amazing with teams, once you create the opportunity for them to give some input.   the things that start to come up. And there's usually even in a well functioning team, there's still usually feedback that a team member would love to give, but they haven't maybe had the right opportunity. And so by just creating the space for it, you'll be surprised at the input you get from your team members.   speaker-0 (15:18) For sure. As you said that I was like, all right, next traction meeting. Dental A Team's gonna write up our communication rules. Because as you said that, I was thinking, like, shoot, we've got a great team. We all communicate, in my opinion, really well. I feel like there's very little drama within our company because I just refuse to tolerate drama and our team knows like we will go toe to toe at any moment. And it is not a bad thing. Like, bring it out, hash it out. But for as you said that, I thought   There might be some team members on our team that aren't as outspoken, that maybe don't feel as comfortable and maybe they would have some input of how we can communicate better as a company and as an organization. And so I think even for those offices, like you said, that are high achieving, they do well, I think sometimes it's worth it to bring up and then make it very simple. I thought you did a good job, Britt, having it very simple. And for me, I'm thinking, hey, this is great, because this is great onboarding for people when they come onto our practice. Like this is how we communicate.   This is how we operate when we have issues and concerns because I think if we don't realize every practice has issues, every practice has an opportunity to grow and every practice is going to have miscommunication. Period. If you're a practice, you will have those issues and concerns. It's just do you have a plan in play of how we solve those? Or do you wait reactively and hope and pray that they sort it out or the wind shifts and changes and they'll come back happier tomorrow? But guess what? Those things sit and they boil and boil and boil until they'll explode.   And that's what we don't want to have. We want to be proactive versus reactive, especially right now when I think that there's more stress on practices than there ever have been before.   speaker-1 (16:54) Yep. And for practices, I think especially right now where we've had, you know, a shift, like there's been a lot of turnover in offices. It's just naturally happened. for offices that are really trying to one, either keep their culture or two, build a culture, this is one of those soft skills and those soft things that help you build your culture. It's a clear expectation that you guys stick to and that is expected of the team and that builds your culture.   speaker-0 (17:20) And I think it also I was thinking because I'm like, I'm sure there's some skeptics listening that think, okay, so what happens if they don't do it? And I'm like, you just got a freaking grading rubric of like, hey, this is what we've committed to. You signed your name on this dot. So you tell me what you think the solution to this problem should be. Like, I don't have to sit here and make it up. It's like, Britt, you committed to doing this. This is what your actions were. You have a very awesome opportunity to give me a good game plan of how you're gonna fix this moving forward.   And then if Britt chooses not to, guess what? This might not be her dream practice. But I think it it becomes a way easier way to hold a team member accountable and give them ownership because they've signed off on it. They created it. And now if they're choosing not to follow through, that's on them. They built this. You didn't build it. Your job is just to ensure everybody follows along with it.   speaker-1 (18:09) Mm-hmm. And then you can come up with a plan on on how to fix it, how to change it and how to grow it. Cause a lot of so often these things just like everybody has some unwritten rules and everybody grew up differently, right? Our skill levels skill levels are gonna be different when it comes to communication. And some people just really don't know how to make the change. So if you've got someone that's still tr struggling, then be able being able to sit and coach with them to really like   get to know them a little better, see what's making them tick, and give them some specific ways to help them improve.   speaker-0 (18:43) Absolutely. So I would say action item from here would be set up a meeting for like you heard, we have a full team traction meeting every single quarter. And so things like this that will take some building time. I mean, last time we did a team activity of take however many pieces of toilet paper you think you'd need for the meeting. Britt was the winner of that. Britt, how many squares did you take? Do you remember?   speaker-1 (19:07) I don't remember. It was a lot. Was it like I wanna say it was like twenty, but I feel like it was more than that.   speaker-0 (19:13) It   was so many. And what the rule of the game was was however many squares you took, you had to say something positive about yourself. So if Britt had over twenty, she had to write down twenty awesome things about herself and share. And Britt was like, Look, I thought we really had to use this for today. This is how much I needed. So then we turned it into a fun game that everybody only could use that many squares for the rest of the meeting. So you better you better pray you're not having to use much of the restroom time if you were Kiera and only chose I think like four squares. Honestly.   speaker-1 (19:41) See people, honestly.   speaker-0 (19:43) ⁓   but thinking, I know we do that every quarter. So this could possibly be the activity that we do as a team of like, let's write the rules of communication. Because I've heard and I think about relationships, like, don't wait until your relationship is in danger to to f to solve and proactively prevent problems. Like do it now while your relationship's great. Same thing with your practice. So whether you're on the side that's struggling on communication or you're on the side that you feel you've got a great culture that's humming along, either side of the spectrum, set a date.   right up the rules of communication, it really didn't take long. I would say probably plan about an hour of it. Have people think of like what what kind of rules of communication would we want here? Like if we had very productive communication, like for me, it's like no drama central. If you've got an issue, go to the person, talk about it, and solve it and move on. Like there is no blame, there is no judgment, but that's my my approach to it. That's how I tend to lead. But I think it's more than just leading, it's actually having it written. So I'd say, ⁓ all of you set a meeting, ⁓   write these rules of communication where everybody builds the rules of communication. Britt, what would you say? I'm thinking like less than ten rules because I hate too many rules. I'm like, gosh, like it can't be too many or otherwise. I'm not going to want to talk to anybody because I'll be like, shoot, I didn't say this or like I'm thinking like five or less. But what's kind of your take of how many rules you should have on there?   speaker-1 (21:00) Yeah, I say ten or less. Sometimes depending on the state of of the group, we need to define things a little bit more clearly. So you might need up to ten for some of our groups where it's like we really just need the core things down because we are functioning pretty well. It might be fewer.   speaker-0 (21:14) I would say less is more on this because you want people to feel like they can achieve it versus feeling like they can't say anything for fear that they're not doing it correctly. So set that up, type it up, print it out, have everyone sign on it. And then I would say add it to your onboarding. so when you do bring on new team members, they know it, they sign off on it as well. and then I'd probably review it maybe once a year, twice a year, whenever you feel like that communication might be slipping up a little bit. And I will promise you, signs of communication going down are team members who are frustrated.   ⁓ there's kind of like attitude in meetings or there's quiet in meetings. Oftentimes teams that don't feel safe will be very quiet. You'll have your few people that will chime in, but not the whole team's participating when it comes to group activities. Those tend to be my tail tall signs of like something's off when the body language has shifted, it's more closed off. They're very quiet in meetings. ⁓ and they're just kind of like a come in, don't really want to talk to anybody and take off.   Usually you know there's something going on with communication. Those are mine, but you have anything of like when communication is starting to suffer that are like your hey, we might need to fix this as just some quick like warning signs that you've seen beyond what I just said.   speaker-1 (22:21) Yep, I think you hit some important ones, frustration for sure. And I think you know when your team's just kind of general lack of engagement. and for some of our teams where we might have one person who's speaking up even when we ask, and they're like, Yep, nope, everything's fine. If it's my person that I know is usually more outspoken and they're the only one saying that, then I also know I've probably got something more going on. My quiet people just aren't wanting to chime in.   speaker-0 (22:45) Yep. So I think that that can help you guys. Like I feel like we really went over how to do this, what to do, what to look for. And I would say, ⁓ it's just I think it's more relevant right now. Like Britt said, tons of teams have transitioned and we've got a bunch of new people, which means a lot of opportunity to have miscommunication. So let's let's get that commution communication dialed in. That way you guys are proactive versus reactive. Britt, I love it. I love what you bring to the table and I love that you are such a   fantastic communicator. I think that's something you do very well. And you're also good at spotting problems and creating solutions. So thanks for bringing that to the table today. I loved it. Having me. Always. All right, guys. Go implement this. Get your communication on par. and if we can help you, if you're struggling and you want somebody to mediate, I thought it was helpful that Britt was there because sometimes it is hard to bring these things up if you don't have open communication. So if we can be helpful for you guys, facilitate some of those conversations, give us a call, email us. Hello.   speaker-1 (23:21) Yeah, thanks for   speaker-0 (23:41) Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We'd love to help you out.   Kiera Dent (23:44) Dental A Team listeners, I hope you loved revisiting this episode as much as I did. I hope that you found the nuggets, the pearls. You can see why we re-released this one because I truly want you to take away the best of the best of the best of the best. This episode truly hopefully sparked some new excitement, gave you some new ideas. I know sometimes when I go back and I look back on things that I've learned in the past, I'm able to re-implement because like that famous quote says, no man steps into the same river twice because neither he is the same man.   nor is the river the same. You are not the same as you were before, nor is your practice the same as it was before. Different things, different ideas, same principles. And I really want to highlight and hopefully you took today that sometimes all we need to do is simplify and put into place or to refine things that we've already been doing really, really well. If you love this episode, don't keep it to yourself, share it with a colleague or leave us a review and help more practices find the Dental A Team podcast. As always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.  

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Dan Fesenmeyer, Managing Partner at WindQuest Advisors, joins to discuss the repowering rush and the FAA permitting stall, rising O&M costs on larger turbines, tariff pass-throughs, and AI data center demand. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow Allen Hall: Dan, welcome back to the podcast.  Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s great to be here. Great to see you again.  Allen Hall: There is so much happening in your particular area. Your name pops up quite a bit within Weather Guard because, uh, we’re dealing with a lot of operators and- A number of times we’ll ask them, “Have you read your turbine supply agreement?” “No.” “Have you read your full service agreement?” “No.” “Well, maybe you should do that.” And then we say, “Have you talked to Dan? You should call Dan, ’cause he can help you understand what you have signed.” Mm-hmm. “Oh, that’s probably a good idea.” So now that you’re here, WindQuest Advisors, of course, obviously is your company. Mm-hmm. And you’re talking to a number of operators. The, the big hurdle at the minute, the nearest short-term hurdle, is repowering. There’s just a lot of [00:01:00] repowering efforts going on- Mm-hmm … trying to get turbines in, start a project. There’s a July 4th deadline and an end of the year deadline. There’s a couple deadlines after that. What are you seeing right now from operators i- in terms of repowering? What’s the effort happening?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, there was a ton of effort to start physical work. That window’s obviously closing-  Allen Hall: Yes …  Dan Fesenmeyer: very quickly, but it’s still open. Uh, and then once you’re past that window, my understanding is if you get your repower completed by the end of ’27, you didn’t really need to have started physical work. But I think most folks, start physical work is kind of the insurance piece of it-  Allen Hall: Sure …  Dan Fesenmeyer: if things take longer. Uh, another thing that’s popped up is obviously FAA and other permitting.  Allen Hall: On the permitting side, from the federal’s, uh, standpoint, is that stopped? Or, or are projects able to continue putting turbines in the ground, or what’s the status? Dan Fesenmeyer: My- From what I’ve seen, I think on the opening session here at [00:02:00] ACP, it was said, they said that there’s, like, 130 projects that are-  Allen Hall: At least …  Dan Fesenmeyer: caught. Yes. And I’m, I’m involved with some of them, and I have a fairly small shop, and there’s just no FAA variances or permits or- They’re not issuing- … mitigation studies. Everything seems to have stopped.  Allen Hall: So they’re not even reviewing the documentation that’s been submitted by the operators at all?  Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s what it seems, yes. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Is that legal? Uh, uh, usually those federal requirements have a timeline which they’re able to review those permits and get them approved or disapproved them. You’re s- Right … I think what I’m hearing is, what you’re saying is they’re not even looking at them.  Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s correct. That’s what I’ve heard and seen.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah.  Allen Hall: So what is an operator to do then? How does this, how do they meet some of these deadlines if they can’t get the permit?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I mean, it stalled a lot of projects ’cause of the associated risk with it. Although I’ve seen some, uh, you know, some repower folks think, “Well, you know, I’m just repair- repowering like for like, or I’m not changing much.” [00:03:00] But if your, if your rotor’s changing or pad location’s changing, you need to update those permits.  Allen Hall: So the, the groups and the operators that are repowering the existing turbines are putting basically the same turbine in the same hole. Dan Fesenmeyer: Well,  Allen Hall: I- Would that be okay?  Dan Fesenmeyer: I would say originally- The initial push on repower was kind of your larger rotors- Sure … new drivetrain, et cetera. Yes. The market seemed to shift more towards, “Hey, let’s do smaller upgrades, component exchanges.”  Allen Hall: Okay.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Getting more towards the minimal investment, so to speak.  Allen Hall: The 80% investment portion. Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes.  Allen Hall: Right.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. And less about, you know, a big new machine head, for example.  Allen Hall: Well, if that gets you through and gets you the, the, uh, tax credit started back up again, which is the whole point- Right … there would be a reason to do that.  Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s right.  Allen Hall: Is there a marketplace then for those components if you’re gonna repower a GE 1.5 machine, which there’s a lot of them- Mm-hmm in the United States? Are you seeing a big emphasis to go get a new gearbox, [00:04:00] to upgrade the blades- Yeah, and, and- … kind of  Dan Fesenmeyer: thing? Or just do maybe a drivetrain and s- Okay … and leave the rotor or, or-  Allen Hall: So do a gearbox and-  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Gear or just full drivetrain- Or generator … or yeah, s- things like that. And, um- Wow people are comfortable doing it, and then it’s e- it’s easier, obviously.  Allen Hall: Sure. It’s faster.  Dan Fesenmeyer: And faster, and you don’t necessarily have to touch permits or, yeah.  Allen Hall: And is part of that repowering, I know one of the questions- Mm-hmm … that’s been bandied about quite a bit is, do I have to buy a, a new generator or a new gearbox, or is a refurbished gearbox enough to check the box in terms of upgrading or putting 80% of the value back into the turbine to qualify for those tax credits? Dan Fesenmeyer: I’m not a tax expert, but I’ve seen people do both.  Allen Hall: Okay. Well, that’ll tell you.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah.  Allen Hall: They’ve obviously talked to- Right … tax advisors about that.  Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s, it’s their level of risk and whether they have outside tax money or whether- … they’re kind of balance sheet or taking it themselves. It’s, it’s- Yeah … more of a risk profile that [00:05:00] everybody’s different on. Allen Hall: Okay. So that has changed the landscape quite a bit. So now it’s, once this window of opportunity passes by, we’re into brave new world. Mm-hmm. And operating turbines now not really 10 years, operating till end of life, which could be 20, 25 years. Have operators started thinking about that and starting to address some of the, the, especially the contracts around that? Are they starting to rethink contracts? Are they starting to approach full service agreements differently? Is, is the marketplace changing in the US?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it, it, depending what you have and what you’re doing, whether you have an existing agreement or you need a new one, and whether it’s a renewal or if you’re doing, let’s say, a drivetrain or new machine head, then there’s usually a service contract that’s going to come with it- Sure ’cause it’s essentially a new machine. Largely a new machine. Largely,  Allen Hall: yeah.  Dan Fesenmeyer: But in the case of a gearbox, right, you’re probably out of your longterm O&M agreement anyway, and, uh, whether you’re… And you probably [00:06:00] have, you don’t have the unplanned coverage anymore. Right. So it’s really, you’re on, you’re kind of on your own risk. Allen Hall: Okay, so that’s the repower scenario. Mm-hmm. What’s happening new turbine-wise? It seems like the, a lot of the operators are choosing six megawatt, seven megawatt, eight megawatt machines tends to be the, the, the band of opportunity for a lot of operators. What are they working on right now in terms of, uh, TSAs, full service agreements? What are you seeing out on the landscape US-wise?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I think, um, the TSAs haven’t changed much.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Dan Fesenmeyer: But the- The, the scope and the risk has changed a bit, and the, the OEMs are, you know, holding their cards closer, and it’s hard to get to certain terms that– harder than it used to be.  Allen Hall: So let’s, let’s talk about that for a minute because, uh, there’s been some recent reports speaking to the O&M costs for larger machines. And so the, the goal was if I went from a [00:07:00] two-megawatt machine to a six-megawatt machine, my O&M cost may be 3x because of the size of the turbine, but ideally they drop. That, uh, the same amount of effort into a larger, m- newer machine, uh, so, uh, my spend wouldn’t go up that much. In, in some places on the planet that I’ve seen feedback about that is that the O&M costs are not 3x, they’re 5x. So the, the cost to operate the turbine, the six and eight megawatt machines, is higher than it would be proportionally to a two-megawatt machine. I think operators are just trying to start to figure that out. Are the OEMs already knowledgeable of that fact and are s- trying- I, in, in- … to phrase the conversation I  Dan Fesenmeyer: mean, in the pricing that you get from the OEMs for the full scope agreements, that’s largely in there already.  Allen Hall: Yes.  Dan Fesenmeyer: And I always tell people look at it on a dollar per kWh or dollar per megawatt hour- Ah … basis versus a dollar per turbine, and you- Sure … you’ll see a different number.  Allen Hall: Different calculation done. Dan Fesenmeyer: Right. But [00:08:00] these, these larger machines, they need larger cranes. They need tall– Yeah, they have taller towers, so a different crane setup, and these components become very, very large. So- Everything gets harder … everything gets d- more difficult. In a basic sense, it’s still oil and gearbox and, you know, tho- tho- Right that kind of basic service. But when you get into major components and more major maintenance items, then it’s bigger, it can be harder.  Allen Hall: So what does a operator think about that now that they have a little bit of experience? Obviously SunZia, which is a huge project, three and a half gigawatts, uh, a l- several hun- like around 900 turbines, all of them bigger turbines. It’s a r- for, uh, really the first real taste in America of larger turbines. What are the operators thinking about that, and how are they thinking about what sizes to go with in the future? Or, or, or do they not really have a choice? Like, GE offers six, Vestas offers six, Siemens will offer a six or a seven, [00:09:00] so those are your choices. They’re– You’re not able to get a two megawatt machine anymore.  Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, I think, uh, it really comes down to your, your site. Okay. And the larger machines are generally better when you have land constraints or, uh, y- your, your wind resource varies very differently. Think of a ridgeline, and you only have a certain number of pads. But generally, it’s kind of a pad constraint to push you to the larger, and then your smaller, “smaller,” four and four to four and a half- … megawatt machines, those are still kind of the workhorses of, of the US, in my opinion. Their NCS better, they’re e- they’re lower cost, but you need more pads. So it’s always that trade-off of pads versus space, spacing, uh, and in the end, you just want to get the most AEP out of that site. Allen Hall: In terms of marketplace, are you seeing prices generally rise dollars per megawatt on [00:10:00] new turbines? ‘Cause the, at least the market indication is that, uh, some of the OEMs have- Real strength in the marketplace today. This is an, an OEM-strong market. They can set- Mm-hmm … prices now. There’s fewer players. China has been eliminated from a lot of lo- locales. Mm. So they don’t have the competition. That allows them to raise prices. Are you starting to see that flow down in some of the contracts, that, hey, the prices are going up? But, but i- inflation has been a big part of that, too. Well,  Dan Fesenmeyer: yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s… And tariffs, right? The, uh, that, that’s the most interesting one right now, and you have to kind of peel apart what’s my pre-tariff price versus my post, and then what’s the exposure if these tariffs change? And-  Allen Hall: Is that in the contracts now? Are they able to write contracts that tie them to what the tariffs could be, so your final price really depends on what the tariffs are today or tomorrow?  Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s generally… Well, things have changed and, and things are always fluid, but, [00:11:00] but most recently it’s, “Well, here’s what the tariffs are today,” and when we either bring in the component or when the OEM’s actually paying that tariff, it’s kind of a pass-through  Allen Hall: in essence. So they’re just handing you the, the bill for the tariff- Yeah … in a sense.  Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, that- that’s it. And then you can maybe negotiate and do some things around that to share risk a little bit. Mm-hmm. But the basic premise is, you know, there’s transparency on here’s the countries and the tariff rates. If these change, that’s on the buyer. Allen Hall: So the OEMs are trying to address that in, in some form w- by moving production into the United States. Vestas has a large blade facility in Colorado. They’ve been expanding that over the last several months. They’ve been hiring quite a bit. Uh, GE with LM up in North Dakota and TPI, and all the discussions around TPI at the minute is to really bolster their supply chain. Uh, they’re trying to get away from the tariffs as much as they can. Are, [00:12:00] are you… You think you’re still gonna see more of that where a Siemens, a GE, a Vestas are gonna be investing more in the United States to avoid that tariff, or is it just impossible?  Dan Fesenmeyer: I, I mean, I think you… What they’ve done, I… It seems to me, I’m not obviously an expert on that, but it- they’ve moved things where they can And to capture- Mm you know, where you already have capacity. But starting, yeah, building a new plant somewhere, I’m not sure how wise that is in the environment that we’re in.  Allen Hall: Yeah, you saw a lot of plants that were proposed two, three years ago that have, were never built. It does seem like existing plants that were on site that were closed got reopened. Kansas, Iowa- Mm-hmm … some of those plants got- Mm-hmm … started over again, which is easier to do, which makes a lot of sense. So they’re going after the, the easiest things first still. We’re in that phase of we’re not gonna put a lot of money into the United States however. We’re gonna utilize what we have and maybe grow what we have. Dan Fesenmeyer: Right. Or, or similarly, you can move from, if you have more of a… All these supply [00:13:00] chains are global at this point.  Allen Hall: Sure.  Dan Fesenmeyer: But if you happen to have a factory in a country with a lower tariff and versus one that’s higher, maybe you move that. You’re not bringing it over to the US, but you’re moving from, let’s say, India to the UK. Allen Hall: Sure. So, so- Okay, so there, there’s a lot of sh- card shuffling going on- Yeah … to avoid tariffs.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, and unfortunately then the tariffs change and- … perhaps you have to change back. And, and the other one, uh, that’s out there, obviously the Supreme Court had their ruling on tariffs, so folks are waiting for a Section 232, which is  Allen Hall: still- Untouchable, in a sense? Uh-  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, it- people are just waiting for what, what will Section 232 be. And it’s been looming for months now.  Allen Hall: Over a year.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes. So, and, you know, we’re waiting, I guess.  Allen Hall: Is the feeling about that in the industry, uh… I’ll, well, I’ll use a couple of good examples, I think, which, uh, offshore wind being a real stress point United States, and a lot of [00:14:00] the administration’s work to limit offshore development got stopped in the courts. So anything that was sort of building turbines, putting, had ships out, putting- Mm … uh, monopiles in, they never got stopped. They were delayed a couple of weeks, but they were never really stopped, and it feels like from the outside looking in, is that the courts are not gonna allow some of these, uh, movements by the administration to take effect. Is the industry in the United States seeing the tariffs and some of the more extreme things that are happening as temporary or, or are they being a little more cautious, saying, “Yes, offshore wind has won a, a number of lawsuits”? But we may not. And th- with the Department of War and 232 and all those events that are happening, what is the outcome there, and w- how are operators thinking about that? Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I think we’re in a, in a market where if you have a project that can get built within this window-  Allen Hall: Yeah …  Dan Fesenmeyer: and [00:15:00] you’ve safe har- Like, those projects- And you’re, you’re just in … are desperately moving forward.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Then- ‘ Allen Hall: Cause the trend has been, if you can get it in the ground, they’re gonna let it be developed. They haven’t been able- Right … to stop anything halfway through. Well,  Dan Fesenmeyer: other, like, the FA is a good example of it-  Allen Hall: Sure …  Dan Fesenmeyer: being stopped. But- Yeah … if you have a project that’s being built, you’re moving forward, and then projects that are outside the window, it’s more of a greenfield development view of, of life. And seems like some folks are selling p- assets, some folks are buying- A  Allen Hall: lot of that …  Dan Fesenmeyer: development assets.  Allen Hall: Let’s go down that pathway for a minute because I did think- Yeah … that’s a very interesting piece to what’s happening in the United States at the minute. There’s a lot of transactions, big dollar transactions happening for wind- Mm-hmm on buying, selling portfolios, not just farms. It used to be farms. Right. We’ll sell a farm. Yeah. It was. We’ll swap farms, that kind of thing. Now it’s like, uh, would you like our whole portfolio, wind, solar, battery?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Mm-hmm.  Allen Hall: Is that playing into a lot of the decisions that are [00:16:00]happening on the ground right now, that a, a developer or an operator that has assets is saying, this is a prime time to sell. There’s a l- I have my tax credits already locked in. We’re golden here- Mm-hmm … for several years. The value is never gonna get higher. I need to get out. I- is that the marketplace today, is-  Dan Fesenmeyer: I think for some. I mean- Yeah … everybody’s got different, uh, motivations, whether they wanna get into wind, get out of wind, greenfield versus repower. Uh, it, it’s, it’s really their view of the world and their risk profile moving forward, and whether this is a short-term play, long-term. Do we wanna get out of wind? Some people are essentially doing that. Uh, it’s, it’s across the board.  Allen Hall: How’s AI data centers playing into this? What are you hearing?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Oh, I mean, that’s what everybody talks about, AI and data centers, and the demand for power is there. And- The [00:17:00] issue that, that a lot of us see is wind and solar and battery can all help with that.  Allen Hall: Sure.  Dan Fesenmeyer: And if you want a gas turbine, that’s great, but my former colleagues at GE are gonna tell you it’s 2030- Yes … or later to get one, so what do you do between now and then? And you’re seeing prices go up, which makes these wind farms look pretty good. Power profile’s nice. Yes. Uh, but you still have hurdles to get, like the FAA, US Fish and Wildlife, all these other hurdles to, you know, that are slowing down wind and solar for that matter too.  Allen Hall: Solar’s been slowed down for sure.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Does that change, though, with the demand for power in AI data centers? And it does seem to be a priority in the United States to, to win this AI race. Mm-hmm. Does that loosen some of the reins on renewables to let them go, like just look the other way for a while, while they put a new solar field or wind farm in?  Dan Fesenmeyer: It stands to reason that will happen. Haven’t really seen [00:18:00] it, unfortunately. But I wo- But I think it will, right? I mean, it, it, it, it almost has to at some point.  Allen Hall: There’s a lot of pressure on Washington DC to let data centers start being developed and, and go.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Mm-hmm.  Allen Hall: But a- as you pointed out, gas turbines are hard to get, and they can’t scale up at the rate at which the demand is. Right. So your alternative is something really simple, quick and efficient, which would be wind and solar and a little bit of battery. Yeah. I- is that change in the thinking of operators and how they’re thinking about their assets, one, and two, what they’re thinking about in the future? Or are they trying to hook up with an- a- I mean- a Google, a Facebook, a- Yeah, I  Dan Fesenmeyer: mean, the offtake’s- … SpaceX … there, and that’s generally, you know, it used to be utility PPAs. Then it turned- Right. … into hedge things and C&I. Yeah. And now it’s more, you have this, the data center offtake.  Allen Hall: Is the data center offtake, thinking about it from a, a financial standpoint, which they’re probably not being tied to the grid. At [00:19:00] least a lot of these, or at least the talk is right now, is the not being connected to the grid to be sort of standalone, feeding a data center, and maybe a piece of fiber optic coming out of the data center. But that’s essentially it. Maybe some backup power on the grid just in case things go horribly wrong, but standalone power for data centers does make sense. It would, it would seem to lessen the requirements on wind and solar in terms of interacting with the federal government or the, the power company in a sense. Does that make wind and solar a little more viable because it’s not connected to the grid?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I mean, it will be connected to the grid because when the wind stops blowing, the utility will usually, you know, or, and the sun stops sh- shining- Sure uh, the utility will kind of provide that power. That w- Or the gas turbines that they have would- Gas turbine will kick  Allen Hall: in, right.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes. Yeah. But, but generally speaking, you’re never truly off the grid, but it does speed things up with interconnection and, and, you know, your T&D [00:20:00] line is much shorter.  Allen Hall: Right.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Or not, you know- Much much, much shorter. Yeah. Depending where the, the resource is and versus the plant or the, the data center.  Allen Hall: So what are the things that we don’t know in the industry that you’re in touch with that we should know? ‘Cause there, there must be a lot happening behind the scenes that we don’t hear out in public or in the common spaces of some of these conferences that are happening behind the scenes. What is, what is the status right now? What do you think the status is of wind?  Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, it’s, I, I, I’m a big sailor, and sometimes the wind’s blowing hard- … you’re going fast, and sometimes you sail into what we call a hole- Yeah … and it’s just dead quiet. We’re not quite there yet, but, um, it, it’s kind of we’re going through a bit of a lull right now. And I think, I think what people don’t realize is the multiple roadblocks that the industry’s facing. In the past, we’ve had PTCs lapse, and the question is when and if it [00:21:00] will be renewed. Yeah. Now you have other roadblocks, you know, whether it’s, again, FAA, Fish and Wildlife, permitting, different localities. Some… And this goes back to the data center. A lot of local, you know, communities don’t want a data center.  Allen Hall: Right. There’s a lot of-  Dan Fesenmeyer: Right? And they’re like, “Well, wait a minute. My power prices as a citizen are gonna go up- True … because of it.”  Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s true. We’ve already seen it.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah. So, so there’s a lot of just new barriers that have come up. Allen Hall: Okay. That-  Dan Fesenmeyer: But wind developers are an extremely resilient bunch, and-  Allen Hall: This isn’t the first rodeo-  Dan Fesenmeyer: Right …  Allen Hall: where they’ve had these issues pop up- Yeah … and PTCs stop and other world forces affect the industry. What’s the outlook over the next three to five years, do you think? Different administration in a couple years, maybe different outlook, more demand on… for power, AI data centers. Is- it just gonna [00:22:00] overwhelm any resistance to wind and solar and battery?  Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, it, it, that’s kind of a crystal ball, but I think if these data centers start getting built out like people think they will, there’ll be demand for power. And, now we’re talking basic economics, Supply, demand. People need power, then power plants will get built and, whether it’s gas, wind, solar-  Allen Hall: All of the above  Dan Fesenmeyer: All of the above, right? And, and I think it will ultimately follow that. I think the, administration will let you know if there’s not enough power or power gets too expensive, something has to break and fill that gap  Allen Hall: because- So let the economics play out a little bit. Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, right? Yeah. ‘Cause we’re, we’re voters, right? And- Sure … and, um, people vote often with their pocketbooks.  Allen Hall: And wind and solar are cheap sources of energy, and they’re gonna come to the top of the list almost every time.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree with you. Uh, it’s good to see you again. We saw you a few months [00:23:00] ago at WOMA in Australia, and that was wonderful. And I tell a lot of the operators we talk to, “You better be talking to Dan and WindQuest Advisors because you really need to understand what your contracts say and the contract you’re signing, and you need to have a better sense of what’s happening, a little more broader speak in the United States and elsewhere- Mm-hmm and they should be talking to you.” So how do they call or how do they contact WindQuest Advisors to get started?  Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, www.windquestadvisors.com or reach out to Allen and his team. You’re on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn as well- … both personally and my firm. And, um, ask a friend ’cause I have a, we have- … big networks that everybody… You know, it’s, it’s a small community here. It  Allen Hall: is.  Dan Fesenmeyer: Right?  Allen Hall: It is.  Dan Fesenmeyer: And, and people bounce around different firms and, but people stay connected, so, um, that’s a great way to find each other as well.  Allen Hall: Yeah. Great to see you, Dan. Likewise. Thank you. Thanks for being on the podcast. And yeah, we’ll hopefully see you in Australia in a couple months. Dan Fesenmeyer: Looking forward to  [00:24:00] it.

Sherlock Holmes and the Sport of Kings by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle单词提示1.moor 荒原2.matches 火柴原文Chapter 3: John Straker's Pockets"Very interesting." I said.I gave the papers back to Holmes, and he put them away."So,Watson, what can you tell me?" he asked.I thought for a minute."This cut on Straker's leg, perhaps he did it with his own knife. When something hits you very hard on the head, and you have a knife in your hand… It can happen,you know.""Very good, Watson, and that's bad news for Fitzroy Simpson.""So,did Simpson do it? do you think?" I said."Perhaps,"said Holmes, "Let's look at it. Simpson puts opium in the boy's dinner. He goes away and comes back later in the night. He gets into the stables, takes the horse out, and leaves. But the trainer arrives at that moment, sees him,and follows him. The two men fight, and Simpson breaks Straker's head open with his stick. Then Simpson takes the horse. But where or did the horse run away? Is it still out on the moor? And how did Simpson get into the locked stables? I don't know, Watson, I don't know, we must wait and see." When we arrived at Tavistock Station, two men came to meet us.Inspector Gregory was a tall, slow-moving man with blue eyes.And Mr. Ross was small and quick.He was the first to speak, "Very pleased to see you, Mr. Holmes. The Inspector here is working hard, but we need help. We must find poor Straker's killer and I want to find my horse.""Is there any news?" asked Holmes."Let's talk on the way," the Inspector said, "I'd like you to see everything in the daylight."We were soon out of the little town and upon the brown hills of the moor.Inspector Gregory thought that the killer was Fitzroy Simpson."Simpson was out in the rain that night. His suit was still wet on the Tuesday."he said, "He had a big stick, and his scarf was in the dead man's hand.That looks bad, Mr. Holmes, very bad."Holmes smiled, "You need more than that, Inspector. The servant Edith,spoke of an envelope, did Simpson say anything about that?""Yes,he said it had money in it, a £10 note for the stable boy. "What about this other training stables at Capleton?" asked Holmes, "Does Simpson have friends there?""No,we don't think so, we went to Capleton of course. Their horse Desbrough is the second favorite for the Wessex Cup, and Silas Brown, the trainer, was not friendly with Straker, but we found nothing when we arrived at King's Pyland." Inspector Gregory took us into the trainer's house."Straker's body is upstairs," he said, "But we have here the things from his pockets and from the ground next to his body. Would you like to see them, Mr.Holmes?""Very much." said Holmes.We went into the front room, and the Inspector opened a box and put things on a table.There was a box of matches, a small piece of candle, some money, a watch, some papers and a small thin knife."This is a strange knife." Holmes said.He looked at it carefully and then gave it to me."What is it, Watson?""It's an eye knife," I said, "Doctors use these when they cut into an eye. You don't usually see them outside a hospital.""Mm,"said Holmes, "So why did Straker take this knife? It's no good for fighting,""His wife says it was in the bedroom for some days," said Inspector Gregory, "Perhaps he just took it, because it was there on the table.""Perhaps,"said Holmes, "What about these papers?""One is a letter from Mr. Ross, the others are bills," the Inspector said, "Three of them are bills for the horse's food, and this one is a bill from a dressmaker in London for a Mr. William Derbyshire. He was a friend of Straker's, his wife tells us. His letters sometimes came here and Straker sent them on.""Mrs.William Derbyshire is an expensive lady," said Holmes, looking at the bill, "£25 is a lot of money for just one dress and one hat."He put the bill down and moved to the window."Inspector,can we go out on the moor now before the light begins to go?"We left the room, and at the front door, we saw a woman.She came up to Inspector Gregory, and put her hand on his arm."Is there any news?" She said."No,Mrs. Straker, but here is Mr. Holmes-the famous detective from London. We have him to help us now.""I think I met you a month or two ago, Mrs. Straker," said Holmes, "Let me see… Yes, it was in Plymouth, at a garden party, do you remember?""No,sir, that wasn't me.""But I remember so well… You had a blue dress and a dark blue hat with white flowers on it.""I don't have a hat with flowers on it, sir. " Mrs. Straker said."Well,well, I am wrong, then. I am so sorry,"Andwith that, Holmes followed the inspector outside.Thefour of us, then walked past the stables and up onto the moor.Afterten minutes, Inspector Gregory stopped."Herewe are," he said, "Straker's body was down there, his coat was hereon this small tree…""Onthe tree, not on the ground?" Holmes asked,"Oh, no, it was on the tree, carefully away from the mud on the ground.""Mm.Interesting," said Holmes. "Now I must look at the mud down there.""Ah," said Inspector Gregory, "And to help you, I have here in this bag one of Straker's shoes, one of Fitzroy Simpson's shoes,and one of Silver Blaze's horseshoes.""My dear inspector, well done!" Holmes was very pleased, "You'll think of everything for some minutes."Holmes looked carefully at the ground, his eyes only centimeters away from the mud."Hello," he said suddenly, "What's this from out of the mud?"He took a match, or a small piece of one."Now why didn't I find that?" said the inspector."I knew it was there, you see." said Holmes."You knew, but how could you know that?"Holmes smiled, but did not answer.He then took the shoes, got down on the ground, and began to look at all the tracks in the mud.We stood and watched, but after five minutes Mr. Ross looked at his watch."This is very interesting, Mr. Holmes," he said, "But is it going to take a long time?""No."said Holmes, he got to his feet."I don't need to do any more here. Watson and I are going to take a little walk across the moor now with the horse shoe."Mr.Ross looked at the Inspector."Can we go back to the house and talk? I must take Silver Blaze's name out of the Wessex Cup race, and do it today, I think.""Don't do that," cried Holmes. "No, no, you must leave the horse's name in for the race.""But…"Mr. Ross began, then he laughed a little angrily, "Well, thank you, Mr.Holmes, thank you for your help. See you later then at the house."And he and the inspector walked away.翻译第三章：约翰·斯特雷克的口袋"嗯，很有意思，"我说。我把卷案还给福尔摩斯，他将它们收了起来。"那么，华生，你有什么看法?"他问。我想了想。"斯特雷克腿上的那个伤口没准是他自己的刀划的。如果有什么东西猛撞你的头，你手上又正好拿着把刀......你知道，很有可能。""很好，华生。这对菲茨罗伊·辛普森来说可不是个好消息。""那你觉得是辛普森干的吗?"我问道。"有可能。"福尔摩斯说，"让我们想想，辛普森在那个小马倌的晚餐里下了鸦片。他先离开，夜里晚些时候又回来，进入马厩，把马牵出来，然后逃走。但那时驯马师刚好赶到，看见了他，并紧追不舍。两个人打了起来，辛普森用手杖把斯特雷克的头打开了花。然后辛普森带走了那匹马--但带到哪里去了?还是马自己跑了?它是不是还在高沼地里?还有，辛普森怎么进到上了锁的马厩里的?我不知道，华生，我不知道。我们必须等等看。"我们到塔维斯托克车站时，有两个人来接我们。格雷戈里巡官个子高高的，动作缓慢，有一双蓝色的眼睛。罗斯先生是小个子，性子很急。他首先开口。"福尔摩斯先生，很高兴见到你。这位巡官很卖力，但我们需要帮助。我们必须找出杀害可怜的斯特雷克的凶手，我还想找到我的马。""有什么新的消息吗?"福尔摩斯问道。"我们在路上说吧，"巡官说，"我想让你趁白天看看所有的情况。"我们很快就出了小镇，到了沼泽地里的棕色小山上。格雷戈里巡官认为凶手就是菲茨罗伊·辛普森。"那天晚上下雨的时候辛普森在外面。他的外套到星期二还是湿的，"他说，"他有一根粗大的手杖，他的围巾又在死者手里。看上去不妙，福尔摩斯先生，非常不妙。"福尔摩斯笑了笑。"你还需要更多证据，巡官。那个佣人，伊迪丝，提到了一个信封。辛普森对此说了什么吗?""说了，他说里边有钱--一张十英镑的钞票，给小马倌的。""卡普莱顿的另一个训练马厩情形怎么样?"福尔摩斯问道，"辛普森在那儿有没有什么朋友?""没有，我们以为没有。当然，我们也去了卡普莱顿。他们的马，德斯伯勒，是韦塞克斯杯的第二大热门，驯马师赛拉斯·布朗跟斯特雷克关系不好。但我们没发现什么。"我们到达金斯皮兰以后，格雷戈里巡官把我们带到驯马师的家里。"斯特雷克的尸体在楼上，"他说，"但我们把他口袋里的东西，还有在他身边地上找到的东西放在这儿。你想看看吗，福尔摩斯先生?""很想。"福尔摩斯说。我们走进前厅，巡官打开一个盒子，把里边的东西放到一张桌子上。有一盒火柴，一小段蜡烛，一些钱，一块表，几张纸，还有一把很薄的小刀。"这把刀很奇怪，"福尔摩斯说。他仔细地看了看，然后把刀递给我。"这是什么，华生?""这是一把眼科手术刀，"我说，"医生给眼睛动手术的时候就用这样的刀。一般在医院外面见不到这样的刀。""嗯，"福尔摩斯说，"那斯特雷克拿这刀做什么呢?它并不适合打斗。""他妻子说这把刀在卧室里已经放了一段时间了，"格雷戈里巡官说，"也许只是因为它在桌子上，他就顺手拿了。""也许，"福尔摩斯说，"那些纸是什么?""一张是罗斯先生的信，其他的是账单，"巡官说，"其中有三张是马饲料的账单，这张是伦敦的一个裁缝寄来的账单，是给一个名叫威廉·达比希雷的人的。斯特雷克的妻子告诉我们，他是斯特雷克的朋友。有时他的信会寄到这儿，斯特雷克再转寄出去。""威廉·达比希雷夫人是位出手阔绰的女士，"福尔摩斯看着账单说，"一件衣服和一顶帽子就花了25英镑，这可是一大笔钱呢。"他放下账单，走到窗户边。"巡官，趁着天色还没暗下去，我们能现在去高沼地吗?"我们离开了房间。在大门口，我们看见一个女人。她走向格雷戈里巡官，拉住他的手臂。"有什么消息吗?"她问。"没有，斯特雷克夫人，不过福尔摩斯先生在这儿，他是伦敦来的著名侦探。我们现在有他帮忙了。""我想一两个月前我曾经见过你，斯特雷克夫人。"福尔摩斯说，"让我想想......对，是在普利茅斯的一个游园会上。你还记得吗?""没有，先生，那不是我。""但我记得很清楚......你穿着蓝色的衣服，戴着一顶深蓝色的帽子，上面有白色的花。""我没有上面带花的帽子，先生。"斯特雷克夫人说。"哦，那是我记错了。对不起。"福尔摩斯说着，跟着巡官出了门。然后，我们四个人经过马厩，走到高沼地上。十分钟后，格雷戈里巡官停了下来。"就是这儿，"他说，"斯特雷克的尸体就在这儿，他的外套在这边，挂在这棵小树上。""在树上?不在地上?"福尔摩斯问道。"哦，不是。是在树上，小心地避开了地上的泥泞。""嗯，真有意思，"福尔摩斯说，"现在，我必须看看那边的泥地。""啊，"格雷戈里巡官说，"为了协助你，我在这个包里装了一只斯特雷克的鞋，一只菲茨罗伊的鞋，还有一只'银光'的蹄铁。""亲爱的巡官，太棒了!"福尔摩斯非常高兴。"你考虑得真周到。"福尔摩斯仔细地检查了地面足足几分钟，他的眼睛离泥地只有几厘米。"噢!"他突然说道，"这是什么?"他从泥里捡起一根火柴，或者说是一小截火柴棍。"我怎么就没发现呢?"巡官说。"我知道它会在这儿，你瞧。"福尔摩斯说。"你知道?但你怎么可能知道呢?"福尔摩斯笑了笑，但没回答。然后他拿起那些鞋，趴在地上，开始查看地上所有的痕迹。我们站在那儿看着他，但五分钟后，罗斯先生看了看表。"呃，这很有意思，福尔摩斯先生，"他说，"但是不是还要很长时间?""不会。"福尔摩斯说。他站了起来。"我不用再在这儿做什么了。现在华生和我要在高沼地里走走，带着这块马蹄铁。"罗斯先生看着巡官，"我们能回房子里谈谈吗?我得把'银光'的名字从韦塞克斯杯的参赛名单里撤下来--我想，今天就得这么做。""别那么做!"福尔摩斯叫道，"不，不，你必须把马的名字留在参赛名单里。""但是......"罗斯先生开了个头，然后有点儿恼火地笑了起来。"啊，谢谢，福尔摩斯先生。谢谢你的帮助。那就过一会儿在家里见。"然后他跟巡官一起走了。

Dans cette nouvelle playlist de l'été, je te propose une première sélection d'épisodes pour t'aider à réfléchir à ce qui te différencie, à la façon dont tu accompagnes tes clients et aux éléments qui rendent ton activité unique.Voici les interviews et épisodes que j'évoque dans cette Minute Marine :Aurore sur le positionnement,le Bonbon où je raconte comment j'ai essayé de me construire un positionnement qui ne me ressemblait pas,la MM#114 "Et paf, ça a fait des Chocapic"et la MM#132 Se rendre lisible avant d'être visible.La playlist complète arrivera un peu plus tard, sur lacohorte.frEt toi, quels sont les deux ou trois éléments qui te différencient vraiment de tes concurrents ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

GE Vernova pumps $1 billion into LM Wind Power, and KKR buys EDF’s US and Canada renewables arm. Plus CIP sweeps South Korea’s offshore auction and the CME plans wind derivatives across three continents. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit striketape.com. And now, your hosts. Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, and I’m here with Matthew Stead and Yolanda Padron. Rosemary is at GWO training this week. And we have an announcement about Wind Energy O&M Australia 2027. Matthew, you wanna give all the details?  Matthew Stead: Drum roll Um, very pleased to announce that WOMA 2027 will be at the East Pullman Hotel in Melbourne’s east, uh, not the other one, and, uh, 3rd to 5th of March. Um, the first two days will be two days of wind O&M, uh, conferences, [00:01:00] uh, and then the Friday will be a half-day, uh, training session. More information to come.  Allen Hall: Well, she’s not here, so we can probably just announce it, that Rosemary will be giving a terrific four-hour-long seminar on blades and blade repair, so you sign up now. Matthew, where do you go if you wanna just check out what’s happening at WOMA  Matthew Stead: 2027? Uh, well, actually, it’s woma2027.com.  Allen Hall: Uh, over at GE Vernova and LM Wind Power, there’s been a whole bunch of turmoil over the last couple of years if you haven’t been paying attention. Well, GE Vernova just injected about a billion dollars into that company. So although LM recently has shown very little in terms of revenue, it definitely had needed some capital injection in, uh, at least according to the Danish press, the number of employees at the Danish site is about 20 to 30. So it’s really a fraction of what it once was. But [00:02:00] it does seem like GE is paying off all its existing debt and then giving it a little bit of a cash infusion to keep it rolling. The question really is, is what is GE Vernova gonna do with that business now? Are they planning on keeping it? Are they trying to get s- to get it back to health where they can service the other, uh, OEMs that they manufacture blades for? Or is there a larger action that will happen in the near future? What do we think?  Matthew Stead: Yeah, I’m really confused by this one. I mean, a cash injection just so that you’re not bankrupt on paper is, um, that’s just playing with money as far as I’m concerned. Or I’m not sure if it’s a US term, but, you know, shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic. It doesn’t– Does it change anything? Allen Hall: Well, uh, th- they made no announcements about closing facilities. The LM blade facility in North Dakota still appears to be making blades. There’s the TPI factories, which are going through a transition r- right now, appear to be making GE [00:03:00] blades. I, I assume Gaspé up in Canada is still making blades, at least that’s the story. If GE’s gonna rely upon LM to make blades, they’re gonna need to keep them open. Is, is this more of just keeping the factories open with a skeleton engineering crew and possibly moving the blade design group into the States? Is that– Or India or, or somewhere?  Yolanda Padron: And they’re still selling, right? They’re still selling blades. It seems like they’re still planning on manufacturing blades. Do we think that maybe- They’re just trying to avoid that whole TPI bankruptcy deal to not have to kind of scrap for parts?  Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s a great question. I think TPI has been producing parts at high quantity, and some of the Things I’ve heard from the industry folk is that TPI is really busy in producing quality blades, and it’s like the bankruptcy transaction is not happening, which is great to hear because the [00:04:00]industry needs blades, and there’s a lot of repowering going on in the United States and a lot of activity in general, so they need blades. But does LM continue to be a part of that?  Matthew Stead: Yeah, I mean, presumably the TPI, um, whole story only makes LM more important, you know, more important to have, uh, an additional manufacturer and, you know, providing, you know, options for the OEMs.  Allen Hall: It does seem like, though, the GE offshore, GE Vernova offshore is not a thing. Although I’ve heard a couple of rumors that, yeah, GE Vernova is offering some products for offshore, it doesn’t seem like their heart is in it. I can see that happening. So are they just trying to focus on onshore business, and that’s it for the time being? Just let it play out and, uh, wait until the elections in 2028? I know that’s gonna get me blocked on YouTube, but that, that does feel like what’s happening at the moment.  Matthew Stead: Yeah, I reckon it looks completely like that.  Yolanda Padron: I mean, it also looks like they’re [00:05:00] just kind of trying to play everything a little bit more safe, right? So they are scaling up, but not as fast as they used to, so scaling the blade sizes. And then they’re– it seems like they’re, they’re having their FSAs cut quite a bit shorter than they used to, right? So are they maybe just trying to focus on, like, cash up front and just trying to play it safe until they can get their, their footing right again?  Allen Hall: Or is it focus on key customers? I could see GE Vernova actually doing that, that they have a history with certain operators worldwide, and they’re just gonna focus on producing and delivering for those customers. Because you don’t see a lot of announced orders for GE turbines. Vestas is announcing things practically every week. Nordex is doing something similar. Siemens once in a while. But what you really don’t hear anything from in any quantity at [00:06:00] all at the moment is from GE Vernova. When a company needs cash badly enough, even the crown jewels go on the block. And EDF, the French state-owned utility, has to fund the upkeep of 57 aging nuclear reactors and build six new ones, so it is selling. EDF has agreed to hand its US and Canada renewables business, EDF Power Solutions, to the private equity firm KKR. The business runs 5.6 gigawatts of renewable assets across the two countries. Late last year, EDF’s chief executive floated selling anywhere from half to all of the unit in a deal that could be, well, it’s reported to be about $4.2 billion. That’s the latest news I’ve heard. This is a big transaction. KKR is Canadian, right? And is a massive investment firm Uh, which I, I don’t think have a lot of wind at the moment. Uh, what is the [00:07:00] KKR play here?  Matthew Stead: I, I love this because this is, uh… So obviously I’m Australian, and Macquarie is a big Australian. So, um, Macquarie own a whole lot of wind farm, a whole lot of wind infrastructure. So I just see this as a wonderful g- you know, fight between KKR and Macquarie. And so KKR has a whole lot of, um, they o- they’ve got some, you know, stake in Australian wind farms. They’ve got some work, you know, through Europe with wind farms. So I, I, I think this is a good thing, just a bit more global competition and a bit more global growth. And I think it’s all coming from the data centers and, you know, the future increase in growth of, um, demand.  Allen Hall: Yolanda, EDF’s wind fleet is a variety of turbines, right? They have some GE, some Siemens. Anything else in their portfolio?  Yolanda Padron: I think they have a bit of Vestas there too, right? Is it something that we were saying? It’s– I think this is really interesting. Um, I know that there’s not– I mean, of course EDF is the latest, but there’s some [00:08:00] operators that seem to be, um, consolidating into a bit more of those just higher private equity firms, and it’s– Do we think that maybe this is the way that the US is going to lean towards? I know we talked a lot about leaning towards funding the data centers and maybe a bit more the behind the meter things. Uh, but do we think that maybe that’s the future of the US? There’s a couple of companies that kind of just own all the major infrastructures and then- A  Allen Hall: couple Canadian companies.  Yolanda Padron: And what does it mean for, like, asset management and stuff, like, that’s really, really different from what they’re seeing in their desks in New York and stuff, and just the larger financial models versus what’s happening on the ground, and how will they connect everything? Allen Hall: It’s a great question.  Matthew Stead: NextEra and Dominion, you know, things are only getting bigger. Scale’s, scale’s coming.  Allen Hall: Yeah. I wonder how much, uh, this transaction will have to go through regulators in the US, uh, because it scares me when you have a, a– such a [00:09:00] large foreign national company. There’s actually two involved in here, right? So you, you have a, a French company and a Canadian company trying to transact on, in the United States on a lot of assets. Uh, it probably won’t be that quick if there’s any oversight at all. I, I’m guessing that we’ll hear noise about it. So we’re, we’ll have to keep listening to all the news sources about it and, and telling our valued listeners what’s going on. Because there’s, uh, we know a whole bunch of people that work at EDF and like, love those people and are really concerned about what the future holds for them. I, at least it sounds like upfront that KKR is just gonna continue with operations, but I know, uh, uh, it’s a turbulent time, and if you work there, you, you hopefully things continue the way they’re, they’re supposed to because One of the things about EDF historically has been is that they’re really talented people, that they have hired well over time and that they know what they’re doing. And every time we, Weather Guard and [00:10:00] Yolanda and I’m sure Matthew have dealt with EDF quite a bit They are on top of what they’re operating. They know how their assets work, and they know how to manage them, and so you’d hate to lose those people in a transaction like this. It would decrease the value of the assets, I would say. Very interesting transaction.  Matthew Stead: Yeah. But, I mean, what if the counter, what if, um, this is all part of a, a growth strategy? You know, a growth strategy with wind, solar, and battery, you know, providing more power. So it might actually be an opportunity. So, you know, opportunity to do more and some more exciting work across all three disciplines. Allen Hall: Definitely so. Uh, but it’s a little early. The ink hasn’t dried yet on the contract. So while offshore market pulls back in general, in a lot of places like the United States, another one is racing ahead. In, in South Korea’s latest offshore wind auction, one name walked away with the lion’s share, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, CIP. The Danish fund [00:11:00] secured more than one gigawatt of the 1.8 gigawatts on offer, including the single largest project and the only floating wind winner. And the appetite was record-breaking. They had a whole bunch of developers trying to bid on this. You had about 3.7 gigawatts being bid in, more than twice of the capacity available. So for a country that only began competitive offshore bidding in 2022, that’s a few short years ago, that market is coming of age. This is a huge announcement by CIP, right? That, uh, they have bid into the system. They’re, they’re winning, and they’re bringing Siemens Gamesa to the table, which we haven’t heard a lot of Siemens Gamesa’s turbines being selected, but this is a massive order and really gonna help secure at least some portion of, of the Siemens Gamesa business. Matthew, you’re closer to it. In, in South Korea, are you seeing the South Korean industry being built within [00:12:00] the country, or are you seeing, uh, partnerships with surrounding countries like Japan? ‘Cause it doesn’t seem like when– and I’ve looked at some of the South Korea, uh, efforts. It does seem like they’re trying to stand up their own offshore built-in country plan. Is, is that the goal? You think Siemens is gonna end up building a, a factory in, in South Korea for some of these projects?  Matthew Stead: Maybe a couple of things. First of all, I have to apologize. I think, uh, we were talking the other week, and I, I, I sort of implied that floating offshore wind was dead, and I think we copped a bit of flack from that. But, uh, anyway, wrong, wrong on, uh,  Allen Hall: floating offshore is dead.  Matthew Stead: Um, but um, you know, I’ve had a fair bit of interaction with, uh, South Korean, um, you know, Philippines, Japan, obviously. I think they’re all trying to get their industries up, but I, I don’t think they’ve got the scale So, you know, I think they, they really need like the Siemens Gamesas, the Vestas’s, um, to come in and, and partner with them. I just don’t think they’ve got the scale, you know, the, the [00:13:00] installed fleet, the industry to really promote it. And, you know, to get the economies of scale, they’re gonna have to pull in the big existing incumbents. So, you know, good on CIP for, for pulling this off.  Allen Hall: In terms of South Korea industry, I think steel is one of their strongest, uh, industries at the moment, and obviously shipbuilding. Those are the, that go hand in hand, so to speak. There’s a lot of steel in wind turbines, and particularly in floating offshore wind turbines. It would seem ripe for South Korea to get into that marketplace.  Matthew Stead: I’m not sure the intellectual property is in steel tubes. Um, I, I guess what I’m trying to say is the intellectual property is in the turbine nacelle and the blades and, um, you know, I, you know, correct what I said that, you know, obviously the steel and the steel manufacturing in South Korea is, is pretty amazing. Um, but yeah, they’re clarifying what I said before.  Allen Hall: So is this gonna turn into the leading floating project in the world? You know, Greenvolt’s gonna happen in the [00:14:00] UK. There’s some talk of things up in Scandinavia. But in terms of speed, will this be one of the leading candidates in t- in getting things in the water just because of the capability of South Korea to, to build at scale? I  Matthew Stead: think it’s really exciting. Yeah, I, I’m, I’m gonna watch very closely.  Allen Hall: I think this is gonna be amazing. I really do.  Yolanda Padron: I was gonna say, could you imagine, like, a, a turbine and a blade where everything is just perfectly manufactured or close to perfectly manufactured? I g- I went to one farm last week, and there were… I mean, it was in the States, and there were so many patches on new blades. I was just talking to the people in operations like, “What’s, what’s going on here?” You know? Uh, so it’s just really… I don’t know. This is exciting.  Matthew Stead: Do you think, um, they’ll build a blade factory, Yolanda? Do you think they’ll actually take on the blades? Yolanda Padron: I don’t know. Uh, I, I mean, it’d, it’d be great for them, I think, right? It’s a new area of business that they’re diving [00:15:00] into.  Allen Hall: If they don’t have to build the building at the port, I think Siemens would be willing to erect something near the shoreline. And in Korea, there’s a lot of major industry right on the shoreline. It would be relatively easy, I think. You know, ev- it sounds easy now because you’re not actually doing it. But in terms of, you know, building a blade factory on the coastline of United States versus doing it in South Korea, South Korea’s gonna be way easier to do that and at scale quickly. That, that one seems like a win-win. I d- if there’s any place on the planet that could do it quick besides the UK or, you know, Denmark, someone like Netherlands, someplace like that, Germany, it’s gonna be South Korea.  Matthew Stead: Maybe that’s a bet, you know. So prove me wrong again. My money at the moment is that Nacelles blades won’t be coming from South Korea. Allen Hall: Well, if they don’t come from South Korea, they’re gonna be on a South Korea-built ship. We’ll be bringing th- those [00:16:00] blades in country. That’s what will happen. So wind is getting its own set of financial instruments, which sounds weird, right? Wind is wind. It’s in a very legacy style industry. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange is planning to launch wind derivatives across three continents, which are contracts that are tied to the grid in Texas, the markets in the UK and Germany, and just the Victoria state in Australia. So today, most weather hedging happens through one-off over-the-counter deals that are sort of hard to trade and thin on liquidity, so it’s not a commodity you can pass around. A standardized exchange-listed contract changes all that. A utility or a wind farm owner could lock in a hedge in about 15 minutes. The contracts would settle against independent data that models how much power the wind should have produced in a given place, likely supplied by [00:17:00] the Finnish firm, drum roll, Vaisala. Plans are not final, but they could go live within months. So they’re hedging on the wind. Does this sound like a smart move, or w- what are some of the consequences of this? Matthew Stead: I think it goes back to that volatility. W- when there’s volatility, people can make money. Um, you know, and a side note, that’s where, that’s where offshore wind comes in because it’s much more predictable. Um, you don’t get the same lulls with offshore wind. Yeah. So I, I, I love all these, these creative ways of, um, generating, generating demand, financial demand. Allen Hall: It can be played though, right? I mean, that’s one of the things about wind, ’cause each turbine is its own separate little power plant that all connect to a substation, so if you have bought a hedge and the substation goes kaput for 24 hours, you could lose your shirt. It does seem kind of risky, depending on what the scale is here. If you’re doing all of Texas or all of [00:18:00] Victoria, maybe that makes a little more sense, but yikes. That’s gonna be a rough market.  Yolanda Padron: Yeah, the market’s already open, right? Like, you can bid day ahead, um, instead of just real-time prices. But so this, this would be really interesting for owners, right? To be able to track that a lot better than just that gut feeling, which obviously I know people working in trading aren’t just going off of their gut feeling. I know it’s a very, very intense thing. Nobody go against me, please. This is very intense, and it’s better– They do a better job than I could ever do. They do great, 10 out of 10. But this– I think this is really interesting for those of us especially who maybe aren’t super in tune with what, uh, all goes into it. So being able to have something that helps you plan it a bit more for, you know, people like you mentioned earlier, the people that have their home batteries in Australia and are just working on the market itself and maybe [00:19:00] not– don’t have those 10, 20 years of experience of, of actually working on the market. So this is, this is exciting.  Allen Hall: Does that explain all the weather sources and the weather companies when we go to a wind, a larger wind or solar event that there does seem to be a lot of people offering weather insights? Is that what that’s about, is they can hedge? If you have a slightly better weather model, that would give you an advantage in this kind, kind– really kind of market? Is that the, the goal of all those weather firms?  Matthew Stead: Uh, absolutely. And, you know, we’re, we’re part of that because, um, ice, ice, um, you know, reduces power output, and ice forecasting and weather forecasting is, uh, really important in, you know, the Nordics, where you don’t want to be promising certain power and find you can’t deliver ’cause everything’s iced up. So, you know, we, we do work with forecasting companies to improve the, [00:20:00] uh, the quality, and it does have a mer-material difference on, on the financial markets.  Allen Hall: So is that something that we can all get paid for? by these weather companies and these, uh, forecast companies if we provide insights on lightning, so to speak, and icing, uh, is that a revenue chain for at least one of us? Matthew Stead: Absolutely.  Allen Hall: Maybe I like this more and more. I was, I was very hesitant of this exchange, thinking like, “Oh man, not a, not another highly leveraged situation with energy. That doesn’t sound smart.” But, yeah, if we can make a small fortune, Matthew, I think we should do it.  Matthew Stead: Fun fact, there was a flight from, um, yeah, from London to Australia the other week, um, and it’s a direct flight, you know, so 17 hours, and, uh, there was a change in the weather. So there was a change in the weather, and that aircraft didn’t have enough fuel to fly to Perth anymore, so it had to land in the outback of Australia.  Allen Hall: No. Did that happen?  Matthew Stead: Yep, because there was a [00:21:00] change in the weather.  Allen Hall: Are there just, like, kangaroos lined up in a runway shape to get the airplane on the ground? Or how do they– Is there a runway out in the outback that would accommodate a large… That’s a large airplane that’s making a London to Australia trip. Triple 7380? It  Matthew Stead: was a Dreamliner. Um, but, um, it, yeah, it landed in Kalgoorlie. So Kalgoorlie’s a mining town. Yeah, they’ve got, they’ve got big stuff in Kalgoorlie. Allen Hall: In this quarter’s PES Wind magazine, in which there is a whole bunch of great articles, a interesting article about grease. Grease not the country, although I would love to go visit Greece. Grease the lubricant that’s in all our bearings and keeps the world moving at any one particular time. Uh, Sh-Shell was talking about doing a lot of research on grease, and when poor lubrication, uh, happens, it’s one of the leading causes of bearing failure. And so when you see a bearing all tore up, usually the first indication is, is there’s something wrong with the grease. Uh, [00:22:00] so Sh-Shell and bearing maker SKF and the University of, uh, Twente joined forces to answer a deceptively simple question: How do you predict when grease inside a bearing will let go? Well, their answer comes down to film thickness. The microscopic layers of grease that keeps the steel from grinding on each other is the magic variable. The work won a major tribology award and is already feeding into, uh, some of the tools that operators use to schedule relubrication before a bearing fails. And It all comes down to lubrication. That’s the lifetime of a wind turbine. There’s so many pieces that are rotating and are heavily loaded with really complicated bearing surfaces. If you don’t have the grease right, it’s just not gonna work. And what’s happening at Shell is one of those pieces, and we’re [00:23:00] learning so much more. And as we, uh, evolve in the technology and become smarter about the molecules we use and how we use them, uh, this is gonna have a big impact. And I know, Yolanda, you’ve been up to– Well, you’ve been to a couple of wind farms recently. Do you s- see– still see huge grease problems that I usually see when I’m on site? Matthew Stead: Mm-hmm.  Yolanda Padron: I didn’t think that was an issue that was gonna go away anytime soon. But it’s good to know that, that there’s something being done about it that’s more revolutionary than just paying someone to clean the turbine every once in a while.  Allen Hall: And the contaminants that get into the greases are a huge problem, particularly where there’s any sort of sand, dust that climbs in. So keeping those joints clear and those rolling surfaces clear is a major effort. And knowing when to relubricate. And, and Matthew, you guys see pitch bearings and all kinds of problems up on blades that are lubricated that have run out of their lifetime early. It does seem like the first thing you see on particularly pitch bearings [00:24:00] is grease on the side of the turbine from them. Matthew Stead: Yeah. I think that’s– uh, there’s even a special code that the, the visual drone inspection companies have. They’ve got codes for, um, grease and so, yeah, exactly, that’s an early flag. But also dust. You know, sometimes dust from the inserts and from the bolts. Yeah. So it’s, yeah, interesting topic.  Allen Hall: Well, I, I think it’s one of the key pieces to keeping the turbines running. And I know if you travel a lot around wind turbines, the, the grease is the thing that the technicians always talk about, and there’s so many different tools to go out and look at these things. But lubrication, we gotta get to it. And, and Shell, and SKF, and a number of others are, are working at it to make, hopefully, our lives a little bit easier. So if you wanna go check out this article by Shell, go visit peswind.com and download a copy today. That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on [00:25:00] LinkedIn, and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. So for Yolanda, and Matthew, and an absent Rosie, I’m Allen Hall, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.

It's Shua's birthday, and Jay has planned one of the most creative and heartfelt adventures in Enjoy Stuff history! Join us for gifts, games, surprises, friendship, and plenty of laughs as we celebrate another trip around the sun. Birthdays are about more than cake and presents. They're about memories, friendships, and finding joy in every moment. Plus, we talk entertainment news, celebrate a comedy legend, and share what we've been enjoying this week.   News M&M's goes natural – Mars announced that its synthetic dye-free M&M's lineup will be dropping the blue and brown candies because those colors proved too difficult to recreate using natural ingredients.   Mel Brooks turns 100! – Legendary filmmaker, actor, writer, and EGOT winner Mel Brooks celebrated his 100th birthday and is preparing to return in the upcoming Spaceballs: The Next One. Check out our TeePublic store for some enjoyable swag and all the latest fashion trends What we're Enjoying Shua has been enjoying Supergirl and came away genuinely impressed. He believes it's a heartfelt, entertaining superhero film that deserves to be judged on its own merits rather than online negativity, encouraging everyone to experience it for themselves and remember to Enjoy! Jay has been watching Spider-Noir and was pleasantly surprised by how well the series captures both comic book excitement and classic film noir. The option to watch it in either full color or black-and-white makes it a unique viewing experience, especially with Nicolas Cage leading the cast. MCU Location Scout MCULocationScout.com is Jay's ongoing project documenting and exploring real-world filming locations used throughout the Marvel Cinematic Universe and related Marvel television productions. Through detailed research, photos, and travel guides, fans can discover where their favorite Marvel moments were filmed. Lately Jay has been adding locations from Spider-Noir, with some familiar locations that were used in other noir films. We also spotlight a memorable sequence from Spider-Man Homecoming featuring Vulture descending through the atrium of Atlanta's iconic Marriott Marquis Atlanta. And don't forget to check out all of Jay's Sci-Fi Saturdays on RetroZap. You can also tune in to SHIELD: Case Files where Jay and Shua breakdown Marvel properties and Superhero Suite for news on comics, movies, TV and more.   Enjoy Shua's Birthday!  This week's episode is a birthday celebration unlike any other! Jay creates an elaborate interactive adventure filled with clues, puzzles, wrapped gifts, and surprises that takes Shua on a memorable journey celebrating friendship, nostalgia, and the importance of making experiences together. Along the way the guys discuss the latest entertainment news, celebrate a milestone birthday for one of comedy's greatest legends, share what they've been watching lately, and spend plenty of time laughing together. It's an episode full of heart that reminds us that the best gifts aren't always the ones inside the wrapping paper. Did you have fun on Shua's birthday? Let us know! First person that emails me with the subject line, "It's your birthday!" will get a special mention on the show.  Let us know. Come talk to us in the Discord channel or send us an email to EnjoyStuff@RetroZap.com   

Si je vous fais la liste de la caravane publicitaire, vous allez croire que je vous décris les rayons d'un supermarché. Écoutez bien : Danette, Charal, Vico, M&M's, Haribo, Senséo, Cochonou, Le Gaulois, Panzani, Tourtel, Orangina, La Vache qui rit ou encore la lessive Dash et l'adoucissant Lénor. Vous rajoutez à ça Leclerc qui a 10 véhicules dans la caravane... Ecoutez Olivier Dauvers : les secrets de la conso du 06 juillet 2026.Hébergé par Audiomeans. Visitez audiomeans.fr/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Unlocking billions in cloud marketplace revenue. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ This powerful panel discussion featuring leaders from Google, Tackle, and dbt Labs dives deep into the explosive growth of cloud marketplaces and the radical shift toward AI-driven go-to-market strategies. With hyperscaler backlogs nearing half a trillion dollars, the conversation unpacks how top-tier organizations are transforming their compensation models, aligning executive buy-in, and navigating the complexities of co-selling to capture committed customer budgets. From the rise of AI agents acting as metered SaaS to the essential operational investments required to scale marketplace revenue from 10% to over 50%, this session provides an actionable roadmap for software companies ready to dominate the 2026 partner ecosystem. https://youtu.be/LSj49f5FEII Key Takeaways Hyperscaler backlog commitments represent a massive, nearly half-trillion-dollar addressable market that completely changes the budgeting conversation. Successful marketplace selling requires complete executive alignment, right down to the CFO, and strategic adjustments like spiffing sales teams for marketplace transactions. The AI category is experiencing staggering 18x year-over-year growth, forcing companies to pivot toward an “agent-first” go-to-market model. Shifting from traditional channels to cloud go-to-market demands a multi-year, intentional investment in operations, people, and technology. System integrators are evolving into software companies as they build orchestration agents to manage fragmented, end-to-end workflows. Leveraging cloud commitments bypasses standard 12-15 month budget cycles, allowing for significantly faster deal closures and larger initial lands. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: Google Cloud Marketplace, hyperscaler backlog, cloud commitments, co-selling strategies, AI agents, metered SaaS, product-led growth, rev ops, B2B sales transformation, ecosystem shift, channel strategy, system integrators, Deal registration, private offer APIs, digital transformation, software procurement. Transcript: Insight to Revenue- The State of Cloud GTM [00:00:00] Dai Vu: These are all things everyone has to do to get to that first five to 10 deals, and then 10, 20, 30% of your business through Marketplace. [00:00:09] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi, own your host, and each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology. Partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:43] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room changes [00:00:46] John Janke: everything. Let’s start. [00:00:52] Vince Menzione: And we have an incredible session. The way that we wanted today to, to, to start the day up was like, let’s talk about what’s happening right now and let’s get three leaders in this space to come up and talk about the world and how it’s a rapidly evolving. So I want to invite to the stage dvu from Google is a great friend of Ultimate Partner. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: Are you guys ready? Are you guys micd up already? Okay, good. Good. John Yanke, the CEO and Founder of Tackle, and Sean Todo, who is an incredible leader with DBT, but also an old friend of mine. We worked together on Microsoft Days. Good to see you gentlemen. Thanks Sean. Great to have you with us. [00:01:37] John Janke: They stuck me on the side ’cause they said I’d block the screen if I sat in the middle. [00:01:41] Shawn Toldo: You still block it a little bit. [00:01:42] John Janke: And that picture’s from like 1985. I, I, we do have to get that. I had way darker hair. It was, uh, 10 year, 10 years at a startup. Makes you turn white. [00:01:52] Shawn Toldo: Mine’s the exact same right now. So it’s all good. [00:01:55] Shawn Toldo: Mine’s AI generated. Yeah. [00:01:57] Vince Menzione: Well, you know, guys, I just took it all off at that point, you know, it’s like good. Yeah, but you lose enough of it. You pull it out over the years. Yeah. So, uh, some really exciting times. Uh, you, we gotta spend some time at you at our breakfast. That’s right. A couple weeks ago. [00:02:13] Dai Vu: A lot of folks here, too. [00:02:14] Vince Menzione: A lot of folks that are here were at that breakfast, and I thought we’d spend a few moments with you talking about all the exciting things that have been happening at, at Google. I mean the, yeah, the businesses just to, first of all, the numbers were house. Outstanding. Congratulations. [00:02:28] Dai Vu: That’s right. [00:02:28] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:02:28] Vince Menzione: Really, some really great numbers. Commitments are off the charts. [00:02:32] Dai Vu: Yes. [00:02:32] Vince Menzione: Crazy off the charts. [00:02:33] Dai Vu: Yes. [00:02:34] Vince Menzione: Yes. Uh, and then there’s a lot happening in this little world called ai, which makes a ton of sense. Yep. I was critical about Google in the beginning because you had all the assets, but Microsoft leaned in first. [00:02:45] Vince Menzione: Uh, but now it’s like things have evolved, uh, quite a bit since those first days. Absolutely. In, in November of 2022. So, uh, take us through a little bit. Let’s, let’s go through [00:02:56] Dai Vu: it. Yeah. I could talk for quite a bit of time because obviously we came out next, yeah. At the end of April, and then we had our earnings announced, but shortly thereafter. [00:03:03] Dai Vu: But, but real quick on next, uh, for folks who attended, uh, you know, the way they framed, uh, the discussion was they showed this AI integrated stack, and that’s how they frame the keynote because we position ourselves as being the only vendor that provides this. Fully integrated stack from custom silicon all the way to the apps and agents. [00:03:23] Dai Vu: And a lot of the announcements were, were focused in those areas. Um, uh, I won’t go through the, the long list, but I think the big ones coming out of next were, uh, certainly the eighth generation TPU we announced, so we actually split this into two specialized chips for training and inference. Uh, so that’s, uh, that was a big piece. [00:03:41] Dai Vu: Uh, but the big one that we announced was this, uh, Gemini Enterprise. Uh, agent platform. So think of it as the comprehensive platform for companies to basically build scale, govern and optimize their agents. And of course, once they have that, they can bring that into, uh, what we call a Gen Gemini enterprise app, which is really the front door for AI for. [00:04:03] Dai Vu: All customers and all employees to manage a mix of agents, um, as part of their daily workflow. And, uh, and a big part of it is, you know, certainly they’ll have some custom agents, but we think a lot of the agents will come from the ecosystem. And obviously there was a big announcement around what we’re doing there. [00:04:21] Dai Vu: Um, and in fact, one of the things that’s interesting is this shows the evolution of, of marketplace in our, in our partnership, which is we’ve taken a lot of the marketplace experience. And brought it into Gemini exp uh, Gemini Enterprise app, right? So search, discovery, uh, the ability to invoke agents, uh, in context. [00:04:39] Dai Vu: I think that’s gonna be very powerful as we think about the evolution, uh, of, of go to market. And then the last thing maybe I’ll highlight is this, um, is. 750 million, uh, investment fund that we’re gonna drive with the broad partnership. So this cuts across all partner types, global system integrators, uh, uh, you know, AI, pure plays, uh, ISVs, uh, the big management consultants as well, uh, because we recognize that partners are gonna be critical to drive business transformation with our end customers. [00:05:08] Dai Vu: So we’re investing around things like. Technical enablement, access to our product teams, access to our FDE for deployment engineers, and then a lot of incentives to drive usage and deployment. So, um, so a lot of, a lot of activity and obviously the ecosystem’s gonna be very critical for us to drive that impact’s. [00:05:25] Dai Vu: Fine. And the last thing, I know we’ve going on and on fine, but the last thing I’ll just mention is just on the earnings announcement, uh, Vince touched on the backlog, so people have been tracking Yeah. Two quarters ago. We were 155 billion on the backlog, and then a quarter later we were 240 billion. And then in the last quarter, just recently, 462 billion. [00:05:46] Dai Vu: So obviously that’s a, a massive signal of customer intent, but more importantly, it’s a, it’s, it’s a addressable market for this ecosystem to go after as well. [00:05:54] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Almost a half a trillion dollars. Yes. In commitment. So a lot, a lot of reason why we should be on the marketplace. [00:06:01] Dai Vu: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:06:02] Vince Menzione: Um, each of these gentlemen have some things to talk about as well, about their companies and the exciting things that have been happening. [00:06:08] Vince Menzione: I’m gonna start, John, I’m gonna start with you because Tackle has, has transformed quite a bit since the last time you were on stage with us. I thought maybe introduce the company. Take us through the transformation and then we’re gonna do the same thing with Sean with his organization. [00:06:21] John Janke: Yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks Vince. [00:06:23] John Janke: Great to see everybody. Uh, John Yanke, GM of Tackle at App Direct. So the big news there is Tackle was acquired in Q4 by a company called App Direct, and I think the why behind this app, direct Powers, marketplaces, they run 400 marketplaces around the world for telcos, for ISVs, for system integrators, channel partners. [00:06:42] John Janke: And we were talk like, when you build a marketplace and diagnose this, stocking the shelves is actually really hard. Uh, and we were talking to them about how could we connect the dots between the hyperscaler marketplaces, the iscs we support, and these additional routes to market. Uh, and that became more strategic and we ended up joining forces in December. [00:07:00] John Janke: And since then, the other part that’s really hard when you build a marketplace is how do you generate demand? Uh, so four weeks ago we acquired a company called Partner Stack. And Partner Stack does affiliate content. They have an affiliate content platform that allows you to connect with 150,000 content providers to be able to start to tell your story to drive leads to. [00:07:23] John Janke: Marketplace. So we think there is a tremendous opportunity to continue. We’re in the earliest days. I think the, you know, Jay, I was with Jay at Channel Partners a few weeks ago and he is like, we under called it, he didn’t say this on stage yesterday, but he is like, uh, the 82% growth. He’s like, we totally under called it. [00:07:40] John Janke: Uh, and I think just listening to dies commit level increase mm-hmm. Reinforces the fact that we’ve under called it. But I also think we’re at this tipping point in the market where all of the new capabilities coming out, we have to all rethink our better together stories. So I think the challenge to all partner leaders, it’s like, how do we. [00:07:58] John Janke: Figure that out. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a fun time. As we transform the way we worked. We wrote the first helping people kind of list, launch and sell through the marketplaces. And now to be able to take that to the next level to hopefully unlock the next a hundred billion of marketplace throughput. [00:08:13] Vince Menzione: And are we at a hundred billion? [00:08:15] Vince Menzione: ’cause that was the number, right? [00:08:16] John Janke: I mean that’s, that’s, that’s the number that’s talked about. I mean, we’re seeing the data signals we see, I mean, we will process 20 billion plus this year. Uh, and that number’s growing faster than Jay’s stated number. So I think we’re excited to see where this year lands. [00:08:30] Vince Menzione: We’ve come a long way from three years ago and we all got on stage and talked about marketplaces together. Right. It’s been, it’s been amazing. And then Sean, let’s talk about DBT. You’ve had some excitement. I know some things maybe we can’t even talk about yet on stage. [00:08:43] Shawn Toldo: Uh, yeah, go ahead. [00:08:44] Vince Menzione: No, I was saying I, I could, I’ll pre-announce things, but No, I’m just, uh, tell, tell us about DBT for those who don’t know in the room, sure. [00:08:49] Vince Menzione: Mean Yeah, that might help. [00:08:51] Shawn Toldo: So, uh, Sean Todo, I lead the partner business at DBT. I’ve been here about 18 months. Um, DBT really started as an open source tool. That help data engineers be successful in SQL transformation with cloud data warehouses? Right. And so back even to the Redshift days now into what I would call more the BigQuery, snowflake, Databricks fabric led days, um, DBT is the tool of choice amongst the data engineering community in terms of how they wanna drive SQL transformation. [00:09:21] Shawn Toldo: And so more recently, we kind of jumped into this kind of paid world. Which is why we needed to bring in additional experience leadership around go to market product, sales, et cetera. And so when I walked in the door, one of the things I noticed really quickly was we were running on AWS, which was great. [00:09:40] Shawn Toldo: We were doing some AWS marketplace stuff. We were running on Azure in Europe only. And one of my first strategies was we have to be everywhere, right customer. We have to meet customers where they are. And so we, uh, made some major investments to be on Google Cloud platform to then be able to really take advantage of marketplace, to then really be able to take advantage of the co-sell opportunities that exist in the field from a day, day-to-day AI perspective with Google. [00:10:07] Shawn Toldo: And it has been a hell of a ride. We launched on, uh, Google Marketplace in July of last year. We went to Google next and we were Google Partner of the Year. Wow. For data and analytics in a very rapid way. We’re now in three, uh, data centers around the, the world. So we’re here in the us, we’re in Frankfurt, we’re in uh, uh, UK as well. [00:10:30] Shawn Toldo: And so it’s been a pleasure to work with D and the broader team. Because the enablement we’ve had and the support we’ve had from that group has really helped our growth be up and to the right. The data point I would give is that when I walked in the door, we were 10% of our business from an A RR perspective was transacting through marketplace. [00:10:48] Shawn Toldo: Last quarter we cracked 40%. Whoa. We will be at north of 50, uh, next quarter. [00:10:53] Dai Vu: Wow. [00:10:54] Shawn Toldo: The other piece that Vince was talking about is we’re getting ready to merge with a company called Five Tran. And so there will be a new company name at some point down the road. Uh, pay attention on June 1st for a public announcement around that merger. [00:11:06] Shawn Toldo: Uh, but we’re really looking forward to what we’re gonna be able to do with folks like DI and the Google team as well as others in the ecosystem. Um, ’cause I think in this data world that we’ve played for so long. This trusted foundational element of data and what it’s gonna mean to context in the AI world. [00:11:23] Shawn Toldo: We’re in a very interesting place to really continue our growth rate at a high level. [00:11:28] John Janke: Yeah, that maybe just a comment something there. Start there. I think we, we used to hear people say we wanted to be strategic with cloud, go to market and get to say 10 or 20% of revenue. I think this like 40, 50%. Yeah. Th that’s where people are setting the bar these days. [00:11:43] John Janke: Yeah. So the numbers are getting really crazy. Yeah. Uh, and people are showing up and being like, I have to go big. Mm-hmm. So a huge change over the last few years. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Yep. What’s the experience you’re seeing as well? I mean, it, it was a huge amount of buzz at next. [00:11:57] Dai Vu: Yeah. I mean, so interestingly, um, you know, typically when, when people get started on the, on the marketplace in Cosal journey, I always try to caution them and say, this is, uh, this is like a multi-year. [00:12:07] Dai Vu: Yeah. Uh, process. You have to be very intentional. You have to invest. It’s not gonna be a thing where you just list and, and, and, and, and, and sort of this channel opens up. So in some ways, Sean is describing an acceleration that is not common, right? Uh, so they’ve done, we’ve done some amazing things together and we hope to keep that acceleration going. [00:12:22] Vince Menzione: What does that require, by the way? Is it engineering resource? I mean, there’s, I talk about executive commitment and maniacal focus. Yeah. But it’s all those things, right? [00:12:29] Shawn Toldo: Well, all of it. But we went to a QBR in Austin, and I put up a slide and I said, we have to do this. And everybody in our ETE agreed. So when you have a chief financial officer that’s bought into the partner business. [00:12:43] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. And I guess qualifying coming into this role at this company, I qualified the C-level staff. Uh, like are they really serious about partner or not? And it’s one of the reasons I took the role. So I think executive commitment was one thing. I think the second thing is we were really well supported, um, by the Google team across the board, right? [00:13:02] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. So folks, Indy’s team that we would work with regularly on, these are the things you need to do to have an effective marketplace offering. Here’s what you need to do operationally with folks like John and team and others that are in the market, right? That helped us a ton to be able to scale. And then the other thing that we did is we changed comp. [00:13:20] Shawn Toldo: So from our VP of sales levels down, we have a 5% kicker for everything that goes through marketplace. [00:13:26] Vince Menzione: Hear [00:13:26] Shawn Toldo: that everyone. So as soon as we incented the sales team, I love that, right? We, we created the foundation on the partner side, but then from top down on the sales side, they were all in. And as a result of that, the question would become, okay, which marketplace stage two sales cycle are we gonna go use? [00:13:42] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:13:43] Shawn Toldo: Who’s the right partner to go partner with? And then my team is reaching out to make sure that co-sell connection happens. [00:13:48] Vince Menzione: That is such a best practice, Sean, to, because there is, as a seller out in the field and we talk about, you talk to John, talks about rev ops all the time. But getting rev ops eng getting the field engaged in the right way. [00:14:01] Vince Menzione: ’cause it feels like it’s more work for them. ’cause they have to think, they have to have more conversations with their customer about their cloud commitments and things like that. Mm-hmm. And then getting them incentive to do the right things. The right behavior. [00:14:12] John Janke: Yeah. It’s a strategy process. People, technology problem. [00:14:17] John Janke: Yeah. It’s not just some flip API automation, go list something if you don’t like that top down view. I think the other thing. Like there’s a, there’s a theme in startups where VCs fund second time founders. I think Sean and team have done this before and they took a lot of learnings over the years and reapplied them, which I think helps them go faster. [00:14:36] John Janke: It’s like that second time. Yeah. Second time cloud go to market Founder theme. [00:14:41] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we could talk about the platform and all the changes there on the. The, the commitments and everything. Mm-hmm. Uh, what separates ISPs generating real incremental revenue on your, in your marketplace? What, what do you see? [00:14:58] Dai Vu: Yeah, so I mean, I, I think there are a couple things. Number one is, uh, the, the foundation has to be, uh, this better together story, uh, with Google Cloud. Um, so this idea that what, you know, what do you bring, what does the Google platform bring and how does that drive impact with customers? And I think this is the reason why Sean and DBT Labs has been very effective. [00:15:16] Dai Vu: ’cause our field recognized they, they can recognize that better together story and communicate it to their customers. So I think that’s the foundation. For everything. Right. And I think as you get started, uh, you know, we do tell partners that they probably need to lean in a little bit, uh, in terms of focus, uh, you know, pick a vertical, a customer segment, um, you know, a geography where they’re particularly strong and, you know, get that momentum going. [00:15:39] Dai Vu: And once you do that, the field knows about it and starts to pull you into deals. Um, so I think that’s the other big opportunity. And then the other thing I just mentioned. Which, uh, the panel already touched on, which is be very intentional around all the things you need to do to invest. Whether it’s like, uh, you know, the business functional alignment, uh, the policies around like, uh, pricing and, and comp, uh, making sure you have the operational capabilities. [00:16:02] Dai Vu: These are all things everyone has to do to get to that. First five to 10 deals, and then 10, 20, 30% of your business through marketplace. And not to, not to top you Sean, but our very top partners are driving 80 to 90% of their business on marketplace. And in fact, some of these partners are actually only marketplace first, uh, uh, because they started out that way. [00:16:21] Dai Vu: Obviously it’s the bigger challenge if you have an existing channel, you’re trying to shift that. But, uh, the aspiration to be more marketplace focus, uh, is up there. [00:16:28] Shawn Toldo: So I just set a new goal for the business plan for me. So that’s exciting. I love it. Looking forward to seeing you in six months on that. [00:16:35] Shawn Toldo: It’s good. [00:16:36] Vince Menzione: I love [00:16:37] Dai Vu: it. Work together on that. [00:16:38] Vince Menzione: Well, di I’m just gonna add, add this because I, I got to see operationally with some of the things you do. Mm-hmm. You, you have an overlay organization. [00:16:45] Dai Vu: Yes. Yes. [00:16:46] Vince Menzione: And so you put accelerants in place within your own organization Yeah. To drive the ISVs into the, into the lines of business. [00:16:54] Vince Menzione: Right. You have, you, you do some of that to accelerate. [00:16:57] Dai Vu: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think this is somewhat unique. I don’t, I don’t wanna speak to the other [00:17:00] Shawn Toldo: hyperscalers, [00:17:01] Dai Vu: but we do have, um, uh, you gotta know the field roles, right? [00:17:04] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. So [00:17:04] Dai Vu: obviously at Google Cloud in the regions, we have, uh, ISV sales specialists who are effectively quoted on marketplace revenue, right? [00:17:12] Dai Vu: So they’re a hundred percent focused on that. And, uh, in addition to that, uh, we also have these, uh, co-sell teams, partner teams where, you know, opportunistically if there’s an opportunity, uh, in a, in a, in a particular area. This team is responsible for connecting the regional sales leadership, uh, the regional, uh, sales teams with, with the partner on the opportunity. [00:17:32] Dai Vu: So there’s a lot of things we’re doing to sort of accelerate that. And of course, the foundation for all this is, you know, our, our, you know, registering deals. And as you definitely get started on that, it’s very important to be very mindful around when you register deals. Uh, be very clear around what the ask and the engagement is with the field reps. [00:17:51] Dai Vu: But once you have that going and get the right rhythm, it becomes sort of a natural way to sort of register all your deals and get that engagement. And then, um, and then maybe the last thing I would say is it isn’t always the sales specialists. It’s, you know, the FSR, our field sales rep as well as our customer engineers are also very motivated. [00:18:08] Dai Vu: To work, uh, with, uh, with our partners because they know that this, you know, whether it be solution completeness or it’s part of a bigger workload or helps unlock greenfield opportunity, they really are motivated to engage with the partners. [00:18:21] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:18:22] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. I’ll just add, I’ll just add to that statement too. I think, um, it’s one thing to have a story as it relates to. [00:18:30] Shawn Toldo: Google Cloud and what you do with marketplace. It’s another thing to have a story in terms of how you impact data and analytics in our world. And there’s a set of specialist sellers inside of Google mm-hmm. That really care about us because we drive a lot faster consumption of big query. And our ability to tell that story across the world effectively has really created a pull now. [00:18:54] Shawn Toldo: And so I, I would say it’s almost, you know, back to, you know, being 12 years at Microsoft and watching kind of that. Phase and how that went. As we went to the cloud and we picked specialty areas, um, Google is doing that as well and they’re doing it extremely fast in a very, very productive way with partners. [00:19:12] Shawn Toldo: And so, you know, I’ll get comments from like Levi who runs west in north region for us, and he’s a, he was at Google next and he was like, I, I gotta, I, I just gotta go to bed. I’m tired. Like we wore him out over two days with their sales team and gave him a host of follow ups and actions related to specific sales areas as well as specific accounts. [00:19:34] Shawn Toldo: And I think that’s the other thing that, um, Google’s done a good job of, but we’ve pushed and we’ve had to work really hard to earn that seat at the table. To help make those people successful from a comp perspective inside of Google as well. [00:19:45] John Janke: Yeah, and this is a huge failure zone for partners with the clouds because they think enablement’s a one and done thing. [00:19:51] John Janke: Like I did a training for the field and I told them the better together story. That doesn’t work. Like you have to literally. Have consistency around this message every day. Oftentimes you need experts who can partner with your reps to give them the confidence. ’cause they may be able to ask the first line question, but someone asks a follow up and they fold up ’cause they know your product. [00:20:11] John Janke: That’s right. They don’s don’t understand all of the nuances of Google and the clouds and the questions that may come back. But if you do that well, it is a huge unlock. [00:20:20] Vince Menzione: Talk about the coaching you provided on the tackle side of that as well and kind of helping. Through this maturity model? [00:20:26] John Janke: Yeah. I mean we, we, over the years, I mean we started as a pure SaaS company and over the years our customers would consistently ask us for more help and we would struggle to figure out how to do that, and we had to invest in services and we actually acquired a company. [00:20:42] John Janke: Five years ago now, that was the foundation. Aaron Feiger, who’s in the room. The core consulting was the foundation of our services business. And that continues to evolve with us. And you know, we see customers at scale saying, I wanna operate my cloud, go-to market really consistently, and I want you to do all the backend operations so my teams can be outselling our products, selling the better together value with Google and others, and not have to figure out how to run the machinery. [00:21:09] John Janke: So we’ve invested a lot there. We have services around strategy, like how to help people think about their business strategy and translate it into a better together story and able to get executive buy-in. And then we have coaching, which is really a phone, a friend, because I think these things get complicated. [00:21:24] John Janke: And I had a customer who was doing the largest deal in their company history. It was the end of the quarter and it was Friday, and they’re like, this is going to be the most complex transaction we’ve ever done and we have no idea how to do it. Our team gets on the phone with them, they work through, what are you selling? [00:21:40] John Janke: How are you selling it? Is your listing set up the right way? Can we actually create all the offers? In a way you have confidence to execute. ’cause those are failure modes. You try to build a cloud, go to market business, and you mess up the largest deal in the company. On the last day of the quarter, uh, that’s something you can’t recover from. [00:21:55] John Janke: So we try to really wrap support around our customers to help them have the confidence to grow. [00:22:02] Vince Menzione: Di you’ve seen tremendous growth in marketplace. Mm-hmm. We don’t publish the numbers specifically. Yeah. We kind of try to figure it out on the back end, but [00:22:09] Dai Vu: Yep. [00:22:09] Vince Menzione: I know you’re accelerated. Your, your marketplace numbers are astounding. [00:22:13] Dai Vu: Yes. I can share some numbers, if that’s [00:22:15] Vince Menzione: okay. Please. Yeah, let’s go. [00:22:18] Dai Vu: So, um. I would say that for a few years now, we’ve been talking about growth. So we’ve been consistently, uh, you know, north of a hundred percent year over year growth. Uh, for the last few years we’ve been processing, uh, what I say, uh, billions of dollars, uh, annually and, uh, uh, millions of transactions. [00:22:36] Dai Vu: And again, that’s for a few years now. Now for 24 to 25, that full year we also doubled. Wow. Uh, which is, uh, which is amazing when you think about the scale in which we operate. But more importantly, if you look at specific category areas, right? So, you know, historically, marketplace has always cater to, uh, those solution pillars that are tied to cloud migrations, like, uh, like security and data and analytics. [00:22:59] Dai Vu: And those continue to be very strong areas for us. But the biggest growth area is, uh, is in the areas of business app. So obviously, you know, the, the ServiceNow workday, uh, Salesforce of the world, as well as the AI category. So one number that we threw out next was 18 x. Year over year growth for the AI category. [00:23:17] Dai Vu: Wow. So in one year now, a lot of it is models, right? So foundational models with our, with our ecosystem. But a lot of that is around agents. So this whole agent go to market model is gonna be, continue to grow and it’s gonna be a huge focus area for, for the coming years. [00:23:32] Vince Menzione: Fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic growth. [00:23:34] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, and, and I’ll add, Diane and I talked about this at Google next. This is a. Very complex thing for DBT, where today we sell seats. [00:23:42] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:23:43] Shawn Toldo: To data engineers. [00:23:44] Yeah. [00:23:44] Shawn Toldo: And now we have all these agentic things that are hitting our engine. And di and I are talking and we’re like, okay, so how does this work in an ag agentic marketplace? [00:23:54] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. Kind of a scenario. And what should we build? Where should we play it? ’cause we’re gonna spin the meter in a different way, so to speak. [00:24:01] Dai Vu: Yep. [00:24:01] Shawn Toldo: And so candidly, we got stuff to figure out related to that. Um, I think what’s been fascinating for DBT is our partner ecosystem changed overnight. So now it’s like I talked to x.ai on Monday. [00:24:15] Shawn Toldo: Mm-hmm. We got time with open AI on Thursday and we have a call with Anthropic and our, uh, CEO and co-founder and uh, chief Product Officer next week. [00:24:26] Vince Menzione: Mm. [00:24:27] Shawn Toldo: We don’t have anybody managing those partners. [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:24:30] Shawn Toldo: Today our focus is on managing the large, uh, hyperscalers plus Snowflake and, uh, Databricks. [00:24:36] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:24:36] Shawn Toldo: And then the SI ecosystem and some tech partners. So we’re having to like, to your point on Agile yesterday. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like we’re having to change our strategy, operating model and organizational model to support that. And candidly, we don’t have all the answers yet, so we have a lot of things to figure out fast, which is a little bit scary. [00:24:54] Shawn Toldo: And challenging, but it’s also a huge opportunity we have to kind of embrace and get into. Yeah. [00:24:59] Vince Menzione: And they’re figuring out as well. ’cause they’re, they’re new to partnering as well. Yeah. As organizations [00:25:03] John Janke: and these AI agents. I think to demystify for a lot of people, and what Sean said is totally right. [00:25:08] John Janke: They’re disrupting everyone’s business model. But in reality from a marketplace standpoint, they’re metered SaaS. This is a thing that’s existed for a long time. Yeah. They look like product-led growth products. There is a lot of patterns around how product-led growth products work in marketplace. Mm-hmm. [00:25:24] John Janke: But you have to bring your business strategy, your product and pricing strategy to those two categories. Metered SaaS and product-led growth. Put that all together to get cross-functional alignment. So we are seeing like. A lot of people get tripped up here and it really does go back to more of the company strategy, product strategy questions, and a lot of partner leaders are not in the room for those conversations. [00:25:48] John Janke: So I think at, at this point in time, as you see big pivots with the partners to go all in on agents, you have to go elevate. Those discussions to be like, what is our plan here? ’cause I, I mean, pricing and packaging will be the thing that trips almost everyone up. [00:26:02] Dai Vu: If I could, if I just build on what John John mentioned, um, so I do agree. [00:26:06] Dai Vu: P it looks a lot like POG, but, uh, but the difference I think is POG has. More historically been in like the data and developer space, now it’s like the general business user, right? So this idea that you want a business user to be able to search and discover, um, agents that could actually be part of their like everyday workflow is going to be very critical. [00:26:26] Dai Vu: And uh, you know, I do think that when we think about the ecosystem building agents. Uh, you know, a lot of the ISV partners aren’t necessarily gonna own end-to-end workflows, right? They’ll, they’ll have a very specific, uh, domain and scope area, but you have to enable yourself to be orchestrated and managed by, you know, orchestration agents or, or, or meta agents that are gonna span end, end workflows. [00:26:49] Dai Vu: And sometimes that includes system integrators and, and others who can stitch that, that automation. So I think, I think that’s, that’s one piece of it. But the other area that I think is gonna be different is, um. There’s going to be a lot of agents. I mean, literally you’re gonna have a very fragmented set of, uh, uh, of players, right? [00:27:07] Dai Vu: It’s not just gonna be the incumbents, it’s gonna be a lot of disruptors and, and, and, and startups. And so the, uh, for the incumbents in the room, it is a mandate that you need to, to innovate because if you do not identify and go to like an agent first, go to market model. Uh, you’re gonna be, you know, disintermediated. [00:27:25] Dai Vu: Somebody’s gonna go build an agent that’s going to leverage you as a dumb database. Um, and they’re gonna own the workflow. So you have to, you have to push the, the, the, the limits here. And I think it’s creates a big opportunity for everyone in this room. [00:27:39] John Janke: I’m going off script. I’m curious. Let’s do it. I’m curious on your take on the system integrators. [00:27:44] John Janke: ’cause I think this, this puts like they’re all, a lot of them are creating agents for people and I think that’s turning them almost more into software companies than they’ve ever been. [00:27:53] Dai Vu: They are, and I think they’re, you know, obviously they’re being, uh, impacted from like, you know, typical like, you know, SOW you know, time and materials type type business models. [00:28:02] Dai Vu: But I do think they play a big role because a lot of the system integrators are bringing, um, you know, vertical and business process expertise. And, um, like I said, I said before, a lot of the ISVs are not gonna necessarily have big enough scope in their area to own end-to-end workflows. And that’s really the promise of agents, right? [00:28:20] Dai Vu: You really need. This cognitive, you know, reasoning, planning, executing across end to end workflows. And I think, you know, the system integrators are gonna bring that capability either, either through, you know, these custom, uh, orchestration or meta agents or if they’re able to productize that and bring that to a model, they can also sort of go through the marketplace model as well. [00:28:41] Dai Vu: So who knows is how it’s gonna evolve. But you know, we’ve always been talking about. Marketplace being a broader opportunity for all partner business models. And I think that will extend to not only, uh, you know, traditional sort of, uh, sell and services partners, but also some of these system integrators as well. [00:28:58] Shawn Toldo: If I could comment on that, please. Yeah. I, I was in London two weeks ago and we did an SI partner day. Mm-hmm. We had 25 sis in a room, probably about 50 people. We had no, um, hyperscalers or cloud data warehouse providers. And when we started talking about open data infrastructure. The role that they can play. [00:29:17] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:29:18] Shawn Toldo: Cross platform in a cost efficient manner for customers and the advisory orientation of that. They all leaned in and we, we stopped talking and they started talking. [00:29:28] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:29:28] Shawn Toldo: So they’re all facing this kind of same problem, which is actually causing a little bit of a shift, I think, in how they think about, I’m a Databricks partner. [00:29:38] Shawn Toldo: Uh, you sure you wanna do that? [00:29:39] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:29:40] Shawn Toldo: So this, this whole thing that’s kind of evolved in the last six to 12 months, when you kind of pick one horse to ride, I, I would tell you be cautious about what that means. You may pick a horse to lead with mm-hmm. But you’re gonna have to flank yourself a bit in terms of other providers that can help you be successful with that, that that partner you’re gonna roll with. [00:30:00] Vince Menzione: So you’re suggesting data vendor agnostic. [00:30:04] Shawn Toldo: I’m suggesting you really have to think about your strategy. Yeah. Because I think the AI, AI disruption is gonna make you think about that strategy. [00:30:13] John Janke: Yeah, I mean there’s, someone mentioned anthropics First Partner Summit. I was not there, but I’ve heard from a bunch of people were there. [00:30:20] John Janke: You know, they had a hundred partners in the room. 95 of them were system integrators. Five were technology companies, the three Clouds, Databricks and Snowflake. Like if you just think about the, the one of the major disruptors in ai, ISVs, were not in the mix. So I, I think, are they trying to disrupt all of us? [00:30:40] John Janke: Uh, do they need us? And they haven’t figured out how to work with us. I, I think. It’s, it’s, [00:30:44] Vince Menzione: and I’ve heard they only have five people in their partner organization, so I just, it’s, [00:30:49] Shawn Toldo: it’s 11 now, but it’s 11, [00:30:51] Vince Menzione: so it was five [00:30:51] Shawn Toldo: last growing fast in the, in the new company I have 50. So like, to put it in perspective, they have to make some pretty big priority. [00:30:59] John Janke: Yeah. And everyone’s been there a hot second, [00:31:00] Vince Menzione: like, right, exactly. Yeah, they, well, we will talk about the learnings we’ve had over the years, getting to where they need to get to. It’s exciting times. We got a lot to talk about here. Um, I, you know, we have about 15 minutes. I I, I want to kind of gauge, ’cause we could talk, we, we have a few things we could talk about, I could ask about, but I want to see if there’s an, like, an interest in opening up to the room for questions. [00:31:25] Vince Menzione: ’cause I feel like we’ve got a very interesting group here. [00:31:28] Shawn Toldo: You got a hand here? [00:31:29] Vince Menzione: Uh, are there hands that wanna Yeah, there’s some people that wanna ask some questions. So Yeah. We have a mic? Yeah, [00:31:37] Dai Vu: we have [00:31:37] Shawn Toldo: a mic. We, [00:31:37] Vince Menzione: we [00:31:38] Shawn Toldo: got one here. [00:31:38] Vince Menzione: We got one here. One here. Thank you. Sorry we went off script, but [00:31:44] Shawn Toldo: that’s fine. [00:31:45] Vince Menzione: It’s fine. [00:31:45] Dai Vu: Off [00:31:45] Vince Menzione: script. Better is good. [00:31:46] Shawn Toldo: I’m sure you planted the questions outta anyway. It’s okay. We [00:31:48] Vince Menzione: did, we did. [00:31:55] Audience Guest: Okay. All Eva, Sean Lightner, quick question to your, uh, increase on the marketplace, and you said you spiff the salespeople by fifth percent. 5%. Mm-hmm. So, and that obviously drives a very large adoption of, uh, marketplace transactions. How are you accounting for the margin you’re losing on, uh, you know, going through the marketplace? [00:32:14] Audience Guest: And also have you done analysis? I’m sure you have, how much is, uh, shape shifting or shifting from existing versus incremental? [00:32:22] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, it’s a great question. Um, um, lemme make three points. Number one, the backlog statement makes the margin statement not matter. So do you wanna play in that space where a customer’s already bought or not? [00:32:36] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. Or do you wanna force a budget conversation that you have to drive on your own in a direct model? That to me, I think it was 484 4 62 [00:32:43] Dai Vu: 4 6 [00:32:44] Shawn Toldo: 2. [00:32:44] Vince Menzione: That’s new Tam available to you? [00:32:46] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. That, that’s just with one. Right. And we are, we are, uh, running on four marketplaces. So that just increases our tam and makes our, our sellers lives easier. [00:32:55] Shawn Toldo: So on that piece, yes, there’s an expense, but we believe it’s right for growth. So there’s a balance there. Um, I think the, and then the second part of your question again. Sorry, [00:33:05] Vince Menzione: shapeshift. [00:33:05] Shawn Toldo: Oh, shift. We, we actually don’t think we would’ve won the business. So if I go back to our Q4 and I can probably point to three or four deals that went, um, Google Marketplace, we would not have won those deals because we couldn’t have created the budget cycle and that quarter. [00:33:23] Shawn Toldo: To make it happen. Generally a budget cycle is gonna take anywhere from 12 to 15 months. Bingo. Because of the spend that was available to us, we were able to close it in that quarter, and we had the largest Q4 in company history. [00:33:35] Vince Menzione: That is such an important point. I’m sorry. [00:33:37] Dai Vu: Okay. [00:33:38] Vince Menzione: But I, I just wanna, that is such an important point of the budget cycle. [00:33:42] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:33:43] Vince Menzione: Being a year to a year and a half versus being able to tap into a commitment that’s already been made. Yeah, so I just emphasize that [00:33:51] Dai Vu: I was, I was just gonna add real quick, even, even when we see sort of a, uh, a channel shift renewal, which is, you know, it’s on partner paper and it moves to marketplace as part of the renewals, we do consistently see that the, uh, renewal rates on marketplace and the incremental a CB on the expansion and new opportunities tend to be better when it’s on the platform marketplace than than offline. [00:34:12] Dai Vu: And that’s why partners choose to continue to drive renewals on marketplace at a reduced to rev share. But uh, because they see that that growth, [00:34:20] John Janke: we, we, sorry. [00:34:22] Shawn Toldo: We see that as well. Yeah. And I would also make the statement on our land business, when we go through marketplace, we are two x higher across marketplaces. [00:34:30] Shawn Toldo: We’re three x higher with them. [00:34:32] John Janke: Yeah, I think separate new from renewals and then instrument deeply. [00:34:37] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, [00:34:38] John Janke: go proactively talk to your CFO and your head of rev ops to understand their mindset. Because I was with a billion dollar seller a couple weeks ago, their CFO still creates friction in the process, even though they’re selling a billion dollars through these channels. [00:34:52] John Janke: But when they broke it down, their deals are three times bigger. They do them faster. They use more components of the product, which I thought was a really cool one. So customers who buy this platform, many component platforms through a marketplace, end up using six components of the product. Versus a normal land customer who uses two increases gross in net retention. [00:35:12] John Janke: So you have to get to the point where you have the data and you can tell that story real really clearly to your finance team to get support ’cause that they will trip you up if you don’t get them on board. [00:35:23] Vince Menzione: And you’re saying there’s friction in that company. I’m just kind of curious ’cause a billion dollar company. [00:35:27] John Janke: There’s a billion dollar marketplace seller [00:35:29] Vince Menzione: market marketplace company. That’s what I meant. Yeah. But, but the fact that this, their CFO friction, like, is it, is it because they’re not doing a good enough job or? [00:35:37] John Janke: Uh, in, of educating, I, the root of the question is from this person is, would they win without it? [00:35:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:35:45] Shawn Toldo: Oh, and is it worth the three points? [00:35:46] John Janke: Right. It’s, it is And, and I think some pe like to me, it’s the cheapest channel in the world. Yeah. Like with committed budget and people to support you winning. Like the, that formula, the math is so simple. [00:35:57] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. For, for a company of our size to go to like the classic resell ecosystem, I gotta walk in with 30 points. [00:36:02] John Janke: Yeah. [00:36:03] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:36:03] Shawn Toldo: It, it’s an illogical conversation. Outside of public sector and growth, you know, geos around the world. And so I, I’ve been lucky to have a CFO that I haven’t had that challenge with, at least at DBTI should say. [00:36:19] Vince Menzione: Really great insights. I think we have, we have another hand up here. [00:36:28] Audience Guest: Yeah. Thanks Susan. The question is for Dai. Uh, my name is Latif Hamani. I’m the founder of Partner System ai. Um, so what we’ve done is we’ve built a, a co-sell AI agent mm-hmm. That your partners can use to Yeah. Reduce all the friction in the co-sell with you. Uh, the questions that I have is, I guess I should back up, so XAWS Madison with a very large alliances, and then I worked, went on the other side. [00:36:55] Audience Guest: For software companies, and even though I had an operational team, I was spending two to three hours on on the keyboard, right? Mm-hmm. Deal registration, emails that can’t be automated, et cetera. So the question that I have for you is, I’d love for you to validate that. You know, unless you are one of the big companies, one of the big enterprises, if you go to the lower end of the enterprise or the mid market, uh, would you validate that there is a challenge? [00:37:20] Audience Guest: There’s a lot of friction for a smaller company. Mm-hmm. Uh, ’cause these marketplaces are complex. Yeah. The cosell is complex. Uh, that there’s an opportunity to really break down that friction with some automation and ai. [00:37:33] Dai Vu: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, we have already been, uh, part of the journey to remove some of the, uh, the friction as part of that selling and purchasing journey. [00:37:43] Dai Vu: Uh. We’re not quite there yet. But, uh, we’ve done things like we have, uh, you know, private offer APIs. We, uh, we have co-sell, uh, registration automation. Um, you know, we have tools like, uh, propensity to buy, tooling to help, uh, partners do, uh, more targeted efforts. Um, but the a i piece is still coming. Um, so I think, uh, the idea here is that we have launched a number of agents as part of our, um. [00:38:08] Dai Vu: Uh, part of our, uh, Google Cloud Partner network, partner hub. Uh, so these are, uh, agents that are gonna do a bunch of things to help partners as part of their workflow, but we’re gonna extend this to the marketplace and ISV area as well. Uh, so I think there’s a lot of opportunity. So, uh, I know there’s probably a lot of feedback in friction, uh, in, in certain parts. [00:38:29] Dai Vu: So we can, we can go tackle together. [00:38:32] Vince Menzione: Hey. There you go. There was a little [00:38:34] Dai Vu: plug [00:38:34] Shawn Toldo: there for tackle. Exactly. [00:38:37] Dai Vu: Uh, and I wanted, and just to be clear, I want to take a look at it from the end to end, uh, uh, flow, right? It shouldn’t just be just marketplace. It should be all the way from like, you know, top of the funnel, demand generation, all the way to like post transaction follow up. [00:38:51] Dai Vu: So we really need to take a look at, at the, the end, end flows and figure out a way we can remove some of that friction [00:38:56] Vince Menzione: three sense. [00:38:57] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:38:59] Vince Menzione: Any more questions [00:39:00] Audience Guest: back here? Hey. Hey guys. This, this is a really good discussion. Uh, di this question’s primarily, uh, from, I’m interested in the hyperscaler response. [00:39:09] Audience Guest: Yep. Uh, but all of you, uh, can you talk about the patterns or say more about the patterns between. Um, the consumption of just platform capabilities versus industry workflows. Mm-hmm. And how industry where I, I mean, I, I, my sense is that industry workflows are becoming more [00:39:27] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:39:28] Audience Guest: Uh, the easier thing for enterprises and SMBs to buy. [00:39:33] Audience Guest: Yeah. Especially SMBs, I think. Um, but say more about those patterns that you’re seeing develop and kind of what is. Uh, who are, where, where are those kind of, where is the demand being driven? Is it, is it, yeah. The search and discover in the marketplace, or is it being led by field sales of mm-hmm. Either GCP or partners? [00:39:55] Dai Vu: Yeah, so let me, I’ll mention a couple, a couple areas where, where it’s growing. So I think number one I mentioned before about some of these large horizontal business apps that we’re partnering with, right? Um, and, uh, and of course the fact that we’re, we’re, we’re transacting them through marketplace is, is a huge. [00:40:14] Dai Vu: Evolution from a few years ago. So who would’ve thought you would be buying like, you know, a hundred million dollars a CB deals, uh, through, through marketplace with like a Salesforce or a ServiceNow workday. But it’s happening now. And to be clear, all these. Horizontal business app. They’re not doing this in a very, you know, opportunistic, transactional way. [00:40:32] Dai Vu: They basically see marketplace and cloud go to market as a strategic growth lever for them. So that’s one big area. So from just a pure large deal perspective. Okay. Then you mentioned before around sort of corporate and SMB. Well, we find that a lot of the big opportunities are mostly around as they scale their business, uh, they’re not necessarily looking for things in the traditional sort of infrastructure space, but they’re looking for, you know, full SaaS applications to help scale their business, right? [00:40:58] Dai Vu: So it would be CRM, finance, hr, these types of solutions to become very attractive for some of this, uh, downstream market. And then lastly, as I mentioned before, which is, uh, when we think about this gentrification and owning, um. Uh, driving, uh, this business process and vertical, the ISVs become very important along with the services partners who bring that domain expertise to drive the end to end workflow. [00:41:25] Dai Vu: So I think that’s gonna be increasingly important. So those are three areas I think we need to watch out for. We. Okay. [00:41:30] John Janke: Maybe one thing, like as the cloud commit grows inside of companies, it’s shifted from being an engineering department, IT department budget line item to a corporate finance budget line item. [00:41:40] John Janke: Typically one of the top five to 10 expenses in a company. So that has shifted. Who is thinking about optimizing? The cloud commit with marketplace contracts. And that opens, that’s really opened up the avenue in addition to like these biz apps, vertical apps players. Yeah. Like having success. So I, I do think even inside your own company, evaluating where your cloud commits are, who owns them and are they thinking about the intersection of marketplace? [00:42:06] John Janke: ’cause I, I think it’s smaller companies, they’re still figuring it out. I run into engineering leaders who still own the commits, uh, but in medium to large companies. Very different. [00:42:16] Vince Menzione: Really good point. Because it, you know this, the optics change dramatically, right? This large commitment is now at the board level, [00:42:23] John Janke: right? [00:42:23] John Janke: And then you do have to teach your sellers as a vertical or business application player how to ask that question. ’cause the first resistance everybody says is, oh my, my person, my stakeholder, we. Manufacturing vertical application provider talking at an event last week, and they’re like, the shop floor manufacturing owner doesn’t know anything about the cloud commit. [00:42:43] John Janke: But if they ask the question, be like, Hey, do you guys have a strategic relationship with Google? Would it be easier to buy our product on the bill? Eight out of 10 times they get a yes. So [00:42:52] Vince Menzione: which is why the 5% comes in And that really accelerates the conversation happening. Yeah. We’ve got three more minutes. [00:43:01] Vince Menzione: Um, if we don’t have any other questions, I ha I have one for each of you really about the maturity model and partners are in the room that are not committed yet, right? We’ve talked about some very significant DBTs doing some incredible things, right? So we, there’s maybe a sense that like we, you, you are working with the be the biggest and the best out there, but what about everyone else that’s in the room that maybe isn’t committed yet? [00:43:23] Vince Menzione: And maybe they’re in motion, but they need some help and advice on what to go do next. What? What would you say die first? [00:43:30] Dai Vu: So they’re early stage, [00:43:31] Vince Menzione: early, early stage or not, they’re not on board yet. They’re not, yeah. They’re not with you yet. [00:43:35] Dai Vu: Yeah. So I’ll, I’ll go back to my earlier comment, which is that as you go into the journey, just be very intentional about what you need to do from an operational, investment people, uh, technology perspective. [00:43:47] Dai Vu: Uh, because it could be, it could be a multi-year journey. Um, uh, so I’d say go into it with the right expectations as opposed to thinking it’s going to be some accelerated six month thing that Sean has been driving here. It’s, he’s the outlier. [00:43:59] Shawn Toldo: But, but the reason for the outlier, [00:44:00] Dai Vu: yeah. [00:44:01] Shawn Toldo: And just to add to the intentional point Yeah. [00:44:02] Shawn Toldo: Is, you know, hire the right people. Right. So, somebody told me a long time ago, uh, hire slow, fire fast. That’s a really, really, really good principle that I take. Mm-hmm. I don’t like the fire part, obviously, but just for context, I, I am very lucky to have a great set of leaders that we were able to add people in. [00:44:24] Shawn Toldo: When I walked in the door, we had a person that was leading the Snowflake and AWS partnership. I had nobody on GCPI had nobody on Microsoft. I had nobody on Databricks. And then we made prioritization decisions on where we’re gonna go next. And so we hired people that had the experience and could drive the outcome in the right way. [00:44:43] Shawn Toldo: But we were very thoughtful about when we made those decisions on a quarterly basis, not a daily basis. So who you’re gonna bet on and then who you’re gonna put in the seat to make that bet come to life, I think is a really important thing as well. [00:44:58] John Janke: Yeah. [00:44:58] Vince Menzione: John, you worked with the be biggest and the best out there, so Yeah, sorry. [00:45:01] John Janke: Well, I think there’s the, like there’s the bottoms up and the tops down. Like seven years ago, this was all bottoms up. It was a partner leader who thought launching a marketplace would be good and they would go figure out how to do some deals and then sell their way up. Today there’s a lot more top down where people get it. [00:45:17] John Janke: But you can evaluate top down pretty fast. ’cause if you go talk to your CEO, you talk to your head of product, you talk to your CFO, and they have an allergic reaction to these concepts. You know, you have to go bottoms up. But there also are success story examples in every single ISV category that exists. [00:45:33] John Janke: Like this is not just security and data and DevOp like the, I think the ServiceNow. Salesforce workday. Examples are really great, like the marketing tech examples, more and more business of vertical apps every day. So I do think you can look at those people who’ve been successful. Maybe they’re your competitors, maybe they’re people you aspire to be and reference them as you’re trying to figure out how to do top down. [00:45:55] John Janke: But like you need both. You can’t win long term unless you get top down and bottom up aligned. [00:46:01] Shawn Toldo: And, and when I, when I would go ask for resourcing, I would always get the question, do, could you go faster with more? And I’d say, no. Gimme the one or two humans here, let me go prove it out and I’ll come back. [00:46:13] Shawn Toldo: So there’s a little bit of a strategy in doing that, that you’re gonna get more over time when you’re, you know, very measured in how you go ask for investment and resource. And so I would just add that point also. [00:46:27] Vince Menzione: Was, was hiring a significant component of your executive commitment, Sean? I mean, [00:46:33] Shawn Toldo: yes. So when I walked in the door at DBT, we had eight people in the partner organization. [00:46:38] Shawn Toldo: Today we have 25, and that was 18 months ago. But that did not happen. I didn’t go in and ask for, you know, that 16 people. Right. I asked over time in a very measured way with, you know, the programs and strategy team, like, what can we also support? You don’t want to bring somebody in to go do something and you don’t have the programs and operations side to support it ’cause they’ll fail. [00:47:01] Shawn Toldo: So we’ve been very thoughtful about how we’ve done that as well. [00:47:04] Vince Menzione: Die from you. I know you had something. [00:47:06] Dai Vu: No, no, no. I, I was good. [00:47:08] Vince Menzione: What is the one thing that people in this room need to go better and differently? Is there one, is there one specific thing other than what we’ve already discussed, did we miss anything? [00:47:16] Dai Vu: No, I would just, the whole identification. So obviously, uh, identifying this is not just like slapping a chat bot, but more around thinking all the things we talked about, product commercials, but also go to market where it’s agent first, where you can surface your agent in a workflow like Gemini Enterprise app. [00:47:34] Dai Vu: That’s gonna drive high alignment with how we work and go to market with Google. [00:47:38] Vince Menzione: Awesome. [00:47:38] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:47:40] Vince Menzione: Wow. Good stuff. Yeah. Very good session. [00:47:44] Dai Vu: Thank [00:47:44] Vince Menzione: you guys. What do you think? Everyone? Thank you very much. [00:47:47] Shawn Toldo: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. [00:47:50] Vince Menzione: If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. [00:47:55] Vince Menzione: Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, [00:48:11] John Janke: October 26th through October 28th. [00:48:14] Vince Menzione: Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything [00:48:22] I.

Ped & Burk are fired up for this summer episode! We open by discussing the best American things all European tourists must experience. Gas station food, anyone? Why are they taking all the risk out of Go Karts & Bumper Cars?! Sony made an announcement that has the boys feeling sad for future generations. Technology has gone TOO FAR. Burk's perfect song leads us into the Meat of the episode, Mm! We draft our all-time wedding songs, with some purposeful glaring omissions. You know you don't like them either. We close the show letting a 90s sitcom cast plan our weddings. Tune in! Hut Hut! Love y'all.

6 月以來市場震盪加劇，半導體與 AI 相關板塊波動尤其明顯！超強記憶體週期也導致蘋果面臨成本壓力而漲價。 本集邀請研究副總監 Vivianna 與 研究員 JC 來跟大家聊聊，在生成式 AI、AI Agent 的趨勢推動下，記憶體供給何時舒緩？AI 需求如何翻轉過去由終端品牌主導的供應鏈議價權？以及消費性電子漲價是否將影響整體經濟動能?

Jennie Nash interviews author Meghan P. Browne about her journey from picture-book nonfiction to selling her first middle-grade novel, after participating in the 2022 Blueprint Challenge. Browne began the project in 2019, drafted it during her MFA at Vermont College of Fine Arts, then used the Blueprint framework to “reverse engineer” the manuscript and discover it lacked plot; the inside outline helped her connect scene events to emotional meaning. After tragedy and other commitments, she returned to revise intensively, resubmitted to her agent, and the novel later sold. Browne also describes submitting pages to the podcast's First Page Lab and learning to absorb both critical and positive feedback. Visit Meghan on her website: https://meghanpbrowne.comThanks for reading #AmWriting! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Join the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you'll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you're writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe're offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:* The full text of The Blueprint* Fourteen video lessons covering every step of the framework* Real coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projects* Practical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you're beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19

“Honor your mind, body, and soul.” In this episode, Nick speaks with Melissa Coloton about her journey from farm life to corporate sales. They talk about high-pressure anxiety and burnout, as well as insights on self-awareness, purpose, and holistic well-being. What to listen for: Honoring yourself means recognizing and responding to your emotional, spiritual, physical, and mental needs. Self-awareness helps us catch patterns and make better decisions over time. Understanding that our mind, body, and soul are connected helps us to see life holistically and from various perspectives External influences and pressures can sometimes become ingrained in who we believe ourselves to be. “Support systems are vital for growth.” Growth is not entirely a solo mission; having the right support system can make a huge difference. Surrounding ourselves with the right people and right environments for us to thrive can take time to separate from the past, but it is always well worth the effort. Support systems can provide new perspectives and help you navigate challenges without burning yourself out. “We really focused on reconnecting with myself. It wasn’t like “you must stop having anxiety”. It was like “when you have anxiety, this is the connection point you have to have with yourself.” Managing anxiety is not about eliminating it, but about learning to navigate it. Self-awareness and self-connection are crucial for managing anxiety and other challenges. By focusing on connection and self-awareness, you can develop coping strategies that work for you. Embracing your emotions and experiences can help you build a stronger sense of self and increase your emotional intelligence. About Melissa Coloton Melissa is a Certified Life Coach and Sales Expert who helps businesses, sales professionals, and entrepreneurs create what she calls aligned success, where purpose, profit, and a fulfilling life all work together. With nearly 20 years of sales leadership experience spanning quota-carrying sales roles, strategy, and executive leadership, she has driven over $1 billion in new business and led high-performing teams to record-breaking growth, particularly in the life sciences sector. After facing burnout and health challenges at the height of her career, Melissa transitioned to a more sustainable model of success and now serves as a trusted strategic partner to people navigating growth, leadership pressure, and pivotal decisions. She is the creator of The Honor You Method, a framework that blends mindset, emotional capacity, and execution strategy to support high-level performance without sacrificing well-being, and the host of The Honor You Podcast, where she explores building success that truly feels as good as it looks. https://melissacoloton.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-coloton-coach/ https://www.instagram.com/melissa_coloton/ Resources: Check out other episodes about anxiety and burnout: Balancing Law And Spirit: Boundaries, Burnout, And Personal Growth With Cindy Rendon How To Handle And Successfully Navigate Career Burnout Easily Reduce Anxiety By Going Calm, Present And Connected Are you looking for ways to better manage your daily mindset, live a happier, more fulfilled life, and pursue the depths of your soul on your path to self-mastery? Schedule a free clarity session with Nick to see if mentoring is a good fit for you.Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Check out Nick's website for more information: https://nickmcgowan.com/ Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Check out Nick's website for more information: https://nickmcgowan.com/ Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Thank you for listening! Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.462)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Melissa Coloton. Melissa, how you doing today? Melissa Coloton (00:11.678)I’m good, Nick. How are you? Nick McGowan (00:13.442)I’m good. I’m good. I’m glad you’re here. we were just shooting the breeze talking about things podcasting and life and all of that. So I want to kind of continue the conversation, but why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre. Melissa Coloton (00:15.767)Me too. Melissa Coloton (00:30.584)Sure. So what I do for a living is I’m a certified life coach and sales expert and I combine those two things by helping people find success that really means something to them by putting purpose and profit together because one without the other will always make you kinda want more out of life. So I try to not be Pollyanna about purpose without profit and I try not to be too focused on profit because, you know, then if we get too into the weeds about that, then that’s all that matters to us and we forget what our purpose is. So that’s what I do. And I spent about twenty years in corporate sales. So that’s my background and always wanted to be a life coach since my late twenties. So finally, finally, finally started doing the thing and combined those two very bizarre things and put them together. So actually they’re not bizarre things on their own, but putting them together is a little bit odd. Nick McGowan (01:18.776)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (01:23.96)And something that people would find odd about me, which I don’t know if it’s too odd, but I do think people are surprised when I say this, is I’m I’m in my blood, I’m a farm girl. So I grew up on a farm, my dad was a farmer, his dad was a farmer. So and I think people are surprised about that because, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in corporate. So being very corporate y and wearing the jackets and all the things. And so when I say like I grew up basically in the middle of a field and ate dirt for for the most of my childhood, people are like, wow, surprising. So yep. I I I would say that I present this, you know, very polished person, but I really do enjoy, you know, a good old backwood bonfire and grew up partying in fields. So yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (02:16.556)Nice. I I I like how you slowly kind of got into that and you were like, Yeah, we party a lot in fields. Like that was how it is. Whole lot. Melissa Coloton (02:22.552)And we partied a lot. Like we had to party on state land because well there was nowhere really to go, right? Like we there was nowhere to go. So we just would all get together in State Land fields. That’s what we did. Yeah. Nick McGowan (02:31.715)Yeah. Nick McGowan (02:37.87)Yeah. That’s cool. I mean, we all have I think we all have situations growing up that some people were a little bit more partiers. I’m trying to be real mindful of how I put this. Some people like partied hard in their like high school years and others didn’t. And then they partied too hard in their early 20s when it was legal to go drink or whatever, and then they got out of it. Some like just never get out of it and like belly up to the bar at 65 years old and it’s the same bar they’ve been bellying up to. but I think there are there’s some like. Melissa Coloton (02:53.068)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (03:10.606)Crazy moments that you can think back to, I’m sure. There definitely are for me that have to do with some of those parties that I can look back at now and go, holy shit. Like I saw how life could have changed drastically. And also I saw how I learned to kind of manage things in a sense. Like, how do you manage a whole group of 40 people around a bonfire out in the middle of nowhere? Or like the cops are coming. How do you let everybody know? Or whatever that looks like. Melissa Coloton (03:22.56)Mm. Melissa Coloton (03:39.754)Right. Yeah. Nick McGowan (03:41.4)But I I can appreciate coming from basically somewhere that’s not corporate at all, and then ending up in corporate. Cause I’ve seen that with people that I’ve worked with at times that were some of the best workers I’d ever worked with, and some of the almost like hard nosed people I’ve ever worked with. And I think that came from their background of being on their farm. Like you had chores that most city kids didn’t have and like tough things that you had to figure out and what do we do? So I’m sure that Melissa Coloton (04:03.776)Yeah. Nick McGowan (04:11.138)Did that help you, you think, when you got into not only corporate but sales? Melissa Coloton (04:15.306)Yeah. Yeah. I think it did a few things. Honestly, it definitely helped my work ethic. You know, I summers off were not a thing for me. I literally would hay it is what we called it, is basically get all the hay ready for the winter. And I remember me and my cousin, she was only a year older than me. We would fight about who would get the front of the wagon and who would get the back of the wagon. Because if you’re the back, you had to start throwing when eventually you’d had start throwing the bales of hay to the front for the person to put it on the elevator and go up and dump it into the hay mill. And we would fight about that like literally like one of us would try to like try to get to the back and or try to get to the front so they didn’t have to be the one throwing bales of hay. So I definitely feel like it helped my work ethic plus like seeing my dad work like that. You know, my dad he he had to do chores before he went to school when he was in high school. Nick McGowan (04:54.83)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (05:08.898)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (05:08.94)You know, he would have to do chores and then he’d have to go do sports or whatever he did and come home and do more chores. So my dad, it wasn’t like he got that like childhood most people think of when they think of childhood. My my dad was worked with his dad. That’s what he did. And they found a way to make it fun. So I think that also helped me was like you can’t take yourself too seriously in an environment like that because shit hits the fan a lot. And if you lose your mind every time the shit hits the fan on a farm, like Nick McGowan (05:31.96)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (05:37.584)you’ll just go nuts. So I have a lot of stories from my my my dad and his aunt about how they grew up and and my grandfather and how crazy that all was. And they just have a lot of laughs about it because I really do think like you would go nuts. So I think that really helped my my work ethic in a really big way. I also feel like it it removed a lot of entitlement. And I’m not I’m not saying I don’t have any entitlement ’cause I think we all do to some degree. But I think it removed a lot of entitlement because Nick McGowan (06:00.814)Mm. Melissa Coloton (06:07.146)I didn’t really come into this world with all this money or like I wasn’t handed anything in my life. Like everything I did, I had to work really hard for. And so when you’re in sales, that serves you very well because you can then make things out of nothing. You know, I even in my sales career, I would get these territories and I’d be like, What the fuck? Like and and I’m like, and at first I was pissed about it, right? Like, why can’t I just get a main account or something like that? But I’m glad I didn’t. Because I learned the art of making something out of nothing, making money where there was no money ig in existence yet. Like I always say, like in sales, especially like the sales the sales professionals that are like, I want an ac I want an active account or I want to tear the territory that’s already bloomed. I’m like, you should actually not want that for especially your first couple go go rounds, because you will learn a skill set that nobody will ever take from you and nobody will ever actually teach you. You will not. You will not learn that in a book, you will not learn that in a podcast. You you have to just do it. And so, yeah, I see I think growing up on a farm helped me with those two things in a in a really big way. Nick McGowan (07:06.689)Yeah. Nick McGowan (07:15.896)My God, I could imagine that you were in a much better spot to be able to handle really tough situations or like calculations of moves, but also probably you experienced different things that other people didn’t, like trying to think from like the opposite perspective. Like I mainly grew up in a city or like right outside of a city. and I’ve always been around a lot of people. So being in a corporate environment, like all the chaos, all the people talking, like you know, those meetings where it’s like. Melissa Coloton (07:21.368)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (07:39.608)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (07:45.77)One person should really be running it, but they’ve lost it. It’s off the rails at this point. Like everybody’s just jabbering about whatever the fucking thing is. And how do you pull that back? How do you not? Like, what’s your level of it? When does it not matter what your level is? And go, yo, you know, that sort of thing or whatever. but I I think that there’s stuff that we as people can really try to find the easiest way through. Like we’re seeing a lot of it with AI now. Everybody’s trying to write books and they’re trying to do all these things. Melissa Coloton (08:09.24)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (08:13.25)Because they just need to create and they need to do all this. When in all reality, what they’re really doing is saying, well, I have to make money. And I’m told that I have to do more. So I have to do more to make the money, but I don’t have enough time to do it. And I don’t really know what the fuck’s going on. And in sales without AI, we’ve experienced that stuff where you’re like, there’s a lot going on. There’s a lot of moving parts and pieces. And I don’t have enough in my pipeline. And but that’s just a small piece from a salesperson. And we all experience stuff like that. But you ended up getting to the point where you’ve done a lot, you work through, and yeah, you can look back now and go, I was really appreciative of having that. You weren’t then, because you typically aren’t, where you’re like, Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody’s here. This is nonsense. But when you learn and you work through it, you can see the silver lining of it. But that’s not always the case with getting burned out. So talk to us about not only the journey of like looking back at that and going, I can see where I’m starting to burn and where I was starting to smolder. Melissa Coloton (08:54.22)Yeah. Right. Melissa Coloton (09:03.734)Right. Melissa Coloton (09:11.032)Mm. Nick McGowan (09:12.642)But then also what that journey looked like. You shared a bit of that even before we started, of like taking it kind of category by category of our I’m gonna work through this, like the mind, body, soul, et cetera. So what did that look like for you? Melissa Coloton (09:23.649)Yeah. Yeah, you know, hindsight is wildly twenty twenty, right? so honestly, when it when when I would say my burn burning out or burnt outness started showing its ugly head, I I truly blamed it on life situations, how hard I had worked, like that kind of stuff. Cause at the time I also had a a friend that was dying of cancer. So it was life combined with work. And even up until I would say, even just recently, honestly, like I would say like literally probably within the last six to twelve months, this has come to me a little bit clearer. And that is it wasn’t necessarily how much I was working. Right. It it wasn’t necessarily even the work I was doing. It was the lens in which I was seeing it all. And that was being very performative, n really afraid to fail. Like really, really afraid to fail. And I say this with a huge grain of salt because I love my parents, but they my parents were very young when they had me. Sh my mom was 18 when she had me. She was 16 when she had my brother. And so they were like kids raising kids. And so I think my mom put on this suit of like My children are not gonna have the life that I had. They are gonna have a different life in me, which served me very, very, very well. Also, it created a monster in me that was like, you have to succeed, period. Like no matter what, you have to succeed and you cannot fail. And I and I often had these experiences with my mom where I’d like, I remember this one time I got a C in French. Like, French, like who fucking cares? Nick McGowan (11:19.835)Melissa Coloton (11:21.184)I’m not gonna move to Paris. Like, we’re okay. And she like just lost her shit on me. Like, just like, what the fuck are you? Like, she didn’t swear, but basically she was like, What the fuck are you doing? Like, if you can’t get better grades than this, you’re not gonna go to she always held sports over my head because I loved playing sports. So that was always one where she could really get me and to do whatever she wanted me to do. Cause I’d be like, my god, I need to go to sports. and so as I got older and I started working in these really Nick McGowan (11:27.405)Mm. Nick McGowan (11:35.864)Yeah. Nick McGowan (11:41.102)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (11:50.251)immense pressure cookers. I mean, Nick, there were my biggest opportunity I ever had was over a hundred million dollars. And that was just in service fees. So together it was actually probably more like a $200 million deal. So I would get in these pressure situations and instead of being like, I got this, I’d be like, this has to come together. Like, and and it was more of like a lens I saw my work through than it was the actual work I was doing. Nick McGowan (12:01.41)Yeah. Nick McGowan (12:12.622)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (12:19.946)So I started getting these weird bursts of anxiety at very odd times, which is why I kind of shoved it aside. Cause it wasn’t like I would be in the middle of a meeting and be like, my God, I’m about to have a panic attack. It would be more like weirder times, like specifically when I was driving. Like when I would drive, I would get really anxious. And I was just like, that’s weird. And I just kept putting it off, kept putting it off, kept putting it off, kept putting it off. And then one day I couldn’t. Yeah. It was just I was driving on the way to work and Nick McGowan (12:31.874)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (12:43.758)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (12:47.661)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (12:49.954)complete meltdown. Like pulled off the highway, tried to get back on, pulled off the highway, tried to get back on. I couldn’t do it. Thank God at the time I was working for my boss was my friend. So I was able to call her and say, I don’t know the fuck’s wrong with me, but I cannot come to work today. And I was supposed to like, my team was coming into town. I was supposed to be leading meetings and all this stuff. She’s like, don’t worry about it. Go home. Get some rest. And I thought it would be a blip on the radar. I was like, I’d be fine tomorrow. Right. And I figured I could probably Nick McGowan (13:07.214)You can Nick McGowan (13:11.51)Mm. Nick McGowan (13:17.624)Yeah. Tomorrow, yeah. Melissa Coloton (13:19.768)Keep keep pushing it aside. I woke up the next day and had just anxiety, like just major chronic anxiety. Couldn’t drive, I couldn’t even drive a quarter. I don’t exaggerate this. And when it’s funny when people when I’ve told people this story afterwards, like people who know me really well, they’re like, they literally think I’m lying. And I’m like, no, I don’t think you understand. Like I could not get in my car and drive a quarter mile down the road without being like, I gotta, I gotta go home. I gotta go back home. So Nick McGowan (13:39.768)Mm. Melissa Coloton (13:48.077)That led to work with a a practitioner near where I live and he’s a life coach and an acupuncturist. And so I’ve I’ve been seeing him ever since that day, which has been, I think the summer will be eight years now. And yeah, and and we really focused on reconnection to myself. And when I did get it’s like he didn’t he wasn’t like you must stop having anxiety. It wasn’t it wasn’t like that. It was like when you have anxiety, this is Nick McGowan (14:02.478)Nice. Nick McGowan (14:12.76)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (14:17.356)the connecting point you have to have with yourself because I didn’t, right? It was like, it was very much like a keep it moving. And anything I felt in my body or anything that I anything that I felt anywhere, it was like, no, I ain’t got time for this shit. And I even remember going into his office being like, the fuck, like this I I just don’t have time for this. Like I I leg legitimately remember thinking that. Like and then I remember sitting in his office for the first time, him telling me that I don’t have a relationship with myself. Nick McGowan (14:24.685)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (14:37.375)Mm. Melissa Coloton (14:46.678)And I’m like, excuse me. Like I I just thought I was one of the most authentic people and all this stuff. So it took some took some work to even understand what was really going on with myself. And so that led to a lot of connection with self, a lot of soul work, what’s really in my heart. When I do have anxiety, what does that mean? What do I need to console? How do I need to function in that experience? And actually welcoming anxiety, because I believe that like when you have these feelings. It’s your soul being like, Hey, I need some attention here. Like, what about me? And so I was just playing the game of like, I don’t care about you. I’m gonna keep it moving. So that was a lot of our work in the beginning. And then when that got really, really solid, I was like, but actually there’s mind, body, and soul here. And so now I’m really in a big era of f fo focusing. a lot on my mind because I can really see now because I meditate a lot more now and I can really see the thoughts that I I come up with on a fairly regular basis. And I can see the through line and I can see the thread. And then I can take that and command my mind to think a different thought. And then it becomes a belief and then I’m just at a better place, generally speaking. So yeah, and then the body is just kind of more the obvious one I would say, you know, I’m very keen on taking care of my body and Nick McGowan (16:01.069)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (16:09.514)not drinking like god awful amount of caffeine just to get through the day and stay focused and like you know like because that’s what I was doing for a while there. so I hope that kind of paints a picture of what I experienced. It was not pretty and there was a lot to it and there were very dark days. I remember I never thought this before and I only actually told one person this when it was happening. And not even my husband, I told my best friend I was like if in if I Nick McGowan (16:13.43)Ha ha ha. Melissa Coloton (16:40.17)If I’m gonna feel like this for the rest of my life, like I actually don’t think I wanna live like this. And and it wasn’t necessarily a a true like thought of you know what, but it was the start of one for sure. Cause I was like, I don’t wanna live like this. Like, this isn’t living. That’s how terrible I felt on a regular basis. So, you know, I definitely went on anti-anxiety medication. I was told I had major depressive disorder. When they said that to me, I was like, Nick McGowan (16:43.928)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (17:07.296)What did you just say to me? Like it was still like, what the fuck are you talking? What what are any of you people talking about? So it really took me a while to not be in denial. And then when I wasn’t and it was finally like a okay, I will okay, yeah, I get this. Like this is where I’m at and this is what I’m gonna have as I have to deal with this. So yeah, I’m really thankful for my practitioner and all my friends and all my family and everybody I worked with was amazing at the time, thank God. Nick McGowan (17:08.632)Mm. Melissa Coloton (17:37.541)my my boss didn’t tell anybody, you know, like people didn’t really know that I was that I was in that state of being when I was at work and I still was able to to get through, but it took a while and then I finally came off anti anxiety medicine and went back on them one time and that was at the height of my executive and and again I I kinda got to that place of I hope nobody figures out I’m an idiot or you know, I have to be perfect or Nick McGowan (17:37.901)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (18:06.038)You know, what if I don’t meet my target? Like there’s just a again, it was in that pressure cooker moment. And I was just like, I’m gonna like move all these things aside and pretend they’re not there. So I kind of did a solid two rounds of that. The second round wasn’t nearly as bad as the first because I had the tools, but there was definitely elements of that s that same initial experience again. It just wasn’t as bad as the first time because I think I had tools, but it eventually got me to the place where I was like. Okay, something for real needs to give. Like this is not sustainable for me. This is not what I’m supposed to be doing. I think the second round I was a little bit more in that thought process of like, I’ve tried to make this work in corporate. I’m just forcing it at this point. So Nick McGowan (18:39.638)Mm. Nick McGowan (18:52.984)I think that’s critical. Like we, as people, can look at things that we’re told to do. Like you need to go to college, you need to go to school, you need to get married, you need to have kids, you need this, you need that, blah, blah, blah. And those things change with every generation. Like even our parents that were like, You’re gonna have a better life than I did. So I’m gonna do things. And it’s like everything you’re gonna do, you’re still gonna fuck up your kid somehow, because you’re gonna say something weird or something’s gonna happen, they’re gonna interpret it weird or whatever. They’re just different human. Melissa Coloton (19:05.005)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (19:16.512)Yeah. Yeah. Nick McGowan (19:20.312)But we take all these things and we think we have to be a certain way, especially from a from a corporate perspective, not even corporate, from somebody who works in larger organizations with a team of people and a lot of people counting on you from different departments, not just from sales, but production needs things from you. They need you to bring in sales, like all the different stuff that goes along with it, where we can get so stuck thinking it’s all on me, it’s all this, it’s all whatever it is. And that’s Melissa Coloton (19:34.221)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (19:39.948)Yeah. Nick McGowan (19:48.568)typically never ever the actual problem. I find that there’s a lot of times where it’s a misalignment problem where we’re not aligned with what we’re doing, but we don’t want to fucking have that conversation with ourselves to be able to do that. Biggest thing that you pointed out was you did work and then you did more work and then you did more work after that. And now you’re still doing a lot of work. So big moral of the story is keep doing the work because those things will start to clear up. Like the spot you’re in Melissa Coloton (20:01.4)Correct. Right. Melissa Coloton (20:10.68)Hundred percent. Yeah. Nick McGowan (20:17.666)With whatever you’re at, just like the people that are listening that are like, well, I’m in a spot right now with either my company or the company I work for. And really in the back of their minds, they’re like, what the fuck? How do I change? What, what do I even where where do I start? What what happens? Like, what’s the first thing I look at? It I think about it like you know, those junk drawers or even a junky closet that everybody has. Like if you really want to clean that thing out, you have to take everything out. And then you have to audit it. Melissa Coloton (20:44.202)Mm-hmm. Yep. Nick McGowan (20:46.018)And that’s such a fucking project. And no one wants to do it with their junctur, let alone themselves. But they get to the point where they’re like, I can’t not. I have to because I can’t anymore. I don’t want to be here. Wait, if I don’t want to be here, what else does that look like? And then things start to crumble a bit. I think the big thing that you’re saying with doing the work is that there’s consistent work that needs to happen, but then there’s also clarity that comes with that that opens up other doors. Melissa Coloton (20:48.332)Yeah. No. Right. Right. Nick McGowan (21:13.442)Like I see things at times where it’s like I open one door and there’s forty more. And I open another door and there’s four thousand more. And I’m like, fuck, should I turn around? Cause there were less doors this way. Like, what what’s going on here? It’s because of that self awareness. yeah. Yeah. And you’re like, where do I pull that thing from? Melissa Coloton (21:22.408)Yeah. It’s like Jenga, right? Call this one out. What’s about to happen? Nick McGowan (21:31.534)And that that’s a really good point. I think a lot of people live in a Django-like state and they don’t really know it. And anything could crack them. I think it’s on us to be able to be self-aware enough to see like, hey, there’s something there. But it can still like it even gets the best of all of us, no matter how much work we’ve done. It’s how quickly you can kind of snap back in a sense and go, you know, I see what I did there for future next problem. Let’s do something a little different. So looking back at that stuff, because here we are in a podcast where this is easy to talk about. But this is also, I think about it as like a lab sort of situation where we go, cool. If we do the work now, by the time you get in that situation, even if you think back and go, those two fucking people were talking about this thing, I remember this. Here’s what they said. Like that’s the point of like, how do we do work now? So that when we’re in that spot, we go, you know what, I’ve been here before. Let me do something a little differently, or at least catch where we’re off. And what I mean by that is like mindset wise. Melissa Coloton (22:14.496)Yeah. Right. Melissa Coloton (22:26.848)Mm. Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (22:29.772)I’ve been in situations where my mindset was, I’m going to not fuck this up. I’m going to do the best situation I can. I’m going to do whatever I can, like I’ve learned some things, and I think too hard about it. I’m too mindset with it because I’m so dead set on just like seeing the thing through instead of understanding context and the situation. And I had something years ago where I literally reacted to my partner at the time. She said something and I reacted and like felt my Melissa Coloton (22:42.22)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (22:58.786)being split where I was like, yo, dude, don’t you say another fucking word. And I could literally hear myself go, shut up and get the fuck out of the house. And I was like, and one more thing. And it was like, motherfucker. Because like it’s already out there and you can’t do anything. But even that level of self-awareness to go, shit. All right, I did that. So what do I do differently this time? The work has to keep adding up. So now that you’re able to look back at that stuff and say, look, I’ve done a lot of this work. I keep doing work for somebody who’s in Melissa Coloton (23:00.288)Mm. Mm. Melissa Coloton (23:08.93)Yeah. no. Nick McGowan (23:28.128)a a spot either in their own business or something that where they’re managing like you did where you’re like there’s this and there’s that. I don’t want people to find out that I don’t really know what the fuck’s going on. Like what what sort of things did you figure out that worked for you because your energy that would align with them and might be in a similar spot where, hey, I need to do this sort of thing from a mechanism standpoint of like breathing or standing out of my energy or whatever to then get to the point where I can actually do something about my mind. So like what did that look like for you? Melissa Coloton (23:49.676)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (23:56.417)Yeah. Yeah. Well, not to be too prescriptive, but the way I describe my, I guess, set of tools, if you will, is is honoring yourself. And that’s a really big perspective I have now in POV of looking at situations and life as a whole. And that just means, you know, recognizing, respecting, and responding to your emotional, spiritual, physical, and mental needs the best you can. Right. And just Nick McGowan (24:09.324)Mm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (24:24.888)external circumstances or societal norms or, you know, anything that might pull you away from really truly hearing all those things about yourself and knowing what it is you really want. And too many people, especially now, because we’re getting super influenced by mega externals. Like before it was probably just our parents and maybe our school and maybe our friends. And now it’s The whole world is influencing you in a really big way. And may and maybe T V. Like we had what, a couple of channels, right? And commercials, sure, whatever. But like I know, I think I kinda am though. I kinda am. You know, I’m I’m definitely of the age where you had to sprint to the bathroom or get some new snacks before the the commercial was over. My brother would be like, It’s pretty Nick McGowan (24:51.181)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (24:55.916)We’re not that old. Calm down. We had to get up and actually hit the switch and like the rabbit ears. Nick McGowan (25:10.434)yeah. Same, I get that. Well before TiVo. Yeah. Melissa Coloton (25:18.22)But but yeah, I think there’s just, you know, there’s a lot of influence. And so how do you understand what you truly want, what you truly need? How do you recognize that? How do you respect it? And I say respect because, you know, a lot of people do the mindset work where they’re like, Shut up, mind. Well, that’s not respectful to your mind, right? Like, why are you treating a major part of who you are disrespectfully? Not saying I never do it, but that’s not the way to go. Like, that’s not going to leverage. your mind, your body, and your soul to get what you want out of life and perform at a really high level if that’s what you want and whatever you’re doing. Cause when I say perform at a high level, I don’t mean like you’re some CEO or something. I mean this can be parenting. This can be being a friend. This can be, you know, picking up a new hobby and just enjoying it. And so that’s my POV on it all. And I really I’ve really thought a lot about this ’cause I wanted to try to containerize what I experienced so other people might use it as a tool. And there’s a lot more layers to that. When I say honor yourself, there’s a lot of layers to that because there’s a lot of layers to your mind and your body and your soul and your emotions and how to deal with all of that. but that’s a that’s effectively the way I look at it. And, you know, a lot of people spend their time focusing on, you know, what’s my purpose? What’s my purpose? And within the honor you thought process, my my definition of that is fulfilling your soul’s desires. And that can mean You want to start baking cakes because that’s fun to you. And that can mean also that maybe you ha wanna have start a family. That can also mean you wanna be in marketing, right? So so many people are focused on purpose with regard to thinking one thing and one thing only in life. And it’s like no wonder we’re driving ourselves bonkers with this, right? So I think if I were to offer anything to your listeners, I would say that. start thinking about what does honoring yourself mean to you specifically and know that purpose is not just one thing. It’s fulfilling your soul’s desire. So your job in life is to figure out what does your soul actually want at any given point and having like giving yourself the permission to make make changes around that if that if that is appropriate for you at the time. And knowing that when you are having anxiety or stress symptoms is what I like to call them too is when there’s when you’re experiencing things. Melissa Coloton (27:40.065)It’s not to be ignored. It’s actu it’s actually to be recognized, respected, and responded to in an appropriate way so that you don’t find yourself waking up one day and be like, How did I get here? And you know, I call it the ants marching syndrome or like, you know, going down the river syndrome, right? You just jump on a raft and you get told what to do to your point earlier. You get told go to college, get married, have children, stay for retirement, retire and die. Like gross. Yeah. Like what are we even doing? Nick McGowan (28:06.316)No thanks. Melissa Coloton (28:09.344)And a lot of people are going check, check, check, check, check. And then they get to a point where they’re like, What am I actually doing right now? Like I’m not very happy. So then, of course, what ends up happening is everybody starts reaching externally and trying to figure out where the happiness is for them. And that looks better on some people than others. You know, it’s like some people get really fucked up trying to do that because they’ll reach for drugs or alcohol or a whole like plethora of things that don’t serve them. So Nick McGowan (28:37.25)Hmm. Yeah. Melissa Coloton (28:38.508)Yeah, it’s a really long-winded way, but that’s that’s my POV now because I didn’t do any of those things before. I just I I was on the river of life and it was working really well for me because I was making good money. I had you know, just kept going up in the in the ladder, right? That’s what I’m supposed to do. And then before you know it, I was not happy. I had tons of stress symptoms, and I did that twice. The first time being a lot worse than the second time because the first time I didn’t have any of these tools. At least the second time it was like, shoot, here I am again, completely dishonoring myself, doing things that are not what I desire. And I’m just doing it for the money effectively, or to kind of show I could do it or prove a point or not fuck up. Like it wasn’t it wasn’t out of pure joy, I’ll tell you that. So Nick McGowan (29:25.464)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (29:30.956)Yeah. Most things that we do aren’t out of pure joy because we feel we have to do certain things, etc. I think you brought up a really good point. I’m glad you bring this up. In fact, I appreciate when anybody brings up the word purpose because we can all look at purpose differently. It’s wild to me when people think that there’s one purpose. Like this is the one thing you’re here to do. And I’ve I’ve learned that that’s not the case, that it’s more so contextual based on the time, where we’re at, like. Melissa Coloton (29:34.837)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (29:51.808)Worst. Nick McGowan (29:59.458)You and I have podcasts 40 years ago. If we were born in the 50s or 60s, we wouldn’t have had a podcast because it didn’t, it wasn’t a thing at that point, but it would have shown up differently. So us being able to take how we show up in the world, what our flavor is, and what we bring to just being authentically us is the most important component of that. But it’s hard for us to get through those layers at times. Melissa Coloton (30:08.585)Right. Right. Melissa Coloton (30:22.519)Mm. Nick McGowan (30:25.996)Like everything that you’re saying, it’s like there’s a deeper foundational layer to it. Even of like, well, I’m doing this because I want to look better, or I’m doing this because I want to do that. Like there’s a level of self awareness to that. And also, what the fuck? Why? Why, why are you doing in that sort of way? And what are you trying to get out of it? I I’ve I get really worried for some people at times when they get stuck in those loops, because you’ve seen stuff like when you’re a Melissa Coloton (30:39.423)Ha ha ha. Melissa Coloton (30:44.802)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (30:53.142)And I don’t wanna say ahead or above or anything. You’re just at a different level of your own journey where you can look and go, man, I see you’re gonna drive directly into a wall. I wanna help you. But if you don’t want any help, then fucking at least put your buckle on, like, just see, please, like, please don’t die. but I do think it’s important for us to understand what our purpose looks like through the work that we do. So think about what you’ve done in sales. You’ve learned a lot from sales. Melissa Coloton (31:03.231)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (31:07.479)Right. Melissa Coloton (31:10.838)Right. Mm. Melissa Coloton (31:16.29)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (31:22.798)You learned a lot from the farms, learned a lot from what your parents did, what they didn’t do, all these things. And that all ties into work that you do now. But you needed to go through and experience all those things so you can go, hold on, time out. I need to look at this differently. What do I do? How do I get past this, et cetera? And how do I actually do this work? If you were just to tell somebody, hey, you need to do these 400 things that I did, your list was probably 40 times that. But like that, even that list, they’d be like, no, hell no. I don’t want any parts of that. Do you think I can just throw it into Claude and Claude will fix it for me? Or you think I can have AI do a thing for me or whatever? Because there’s a deeper foundational layer to that of us all trying to do more instead of understanding there’s systems at play that are telling us we’re not enough instead of going, well, what am I here for? What do I actually need to do on this planet? So for the people that are on their own path towards self-mastery, what advice do you give them to show up and be them on this planet? Melissa Coloton (32:10.53)Right. Right. Melissa Coloton (32:19.498)Yeah. I I would say don’t outsource. I know you really triggered me when you just said that. Cause so many Yeah, really like it really is like people and but you know, and I would say that anyway, probably because we we even if right before AI, even before AI, we’re outsourcing to the external. We’re really outsourcing to what are people gonna think and Nick McGowan (32:26.798)I didn’t mean to set you up for that one. Melissa Coloton (32:47.998)what if I do this or what if I don’t do that? And some of some people external, you know, look for the external to fix their emotions instead of just feeling them, right? Or trying to cover them up. So there’s it’s the you know, it’s the tale of of time, right? It’s just like something we’ve always done and we probably will always continue to do. And it’s just getting in a different context now. So I would say like, you know, don’t don’t outsource your Nick McGowan (32:55.501)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (33:15.818)life and don’t outsource help having something external help you figure out what it is that you love and what it is that you enjoy. And I always say emotions, your excuse me, your soul speaks in emotions. And if we can really not just intellectualize that, but truly understand that, then we’ll start paying attention a lot more. Like, boy, that made me feel real shitty when that person talked to me that way. Okay, what’s that about? Nick McGowan (33:40.034)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (33:43.051)Is it really cause the person that talked to me that shitty or is it because like I’m grew up with my mom talking to like that and it just triggers the fuck out of me because it might trigger me, but not you, right? Or like there’s been times where I’ve come home and told my husband, like, Can you believe blah blah blah? And he’s like, not really seeing and like Nick McGowan (34:00.82)Yeah, I can’t no. Yeah. Melissa Coloton (34:02.942)You better agree with me. So I I really think that an ability to not outsource things in your life that are so important, which are the things that matter, which are your purpose essentially. Like not to be cliche or too esoteric about it, but pay attention to where you’re at, you know, pay attention to your thoughts. I mean meditate. I like Nick McGowan (34:18.284)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (34:30.752)On my podcast not long ago, I like literally yelled at people. I was just like, If if you’re too busy to meditate, like the fuck are you even talking about? Like if you sit in a line to pick your kids up for twenty, thirty minutes, like close your eyes for a second and just like focus and see what see what you’re like, watch your thoughts, see what happens. You know, like people are just so busy. There’s like, I can’t have I can’t find time for that. No, you actually can’t sit with yourself for more than 10 minutes without picking up your phone or like watching a TV. Like Nick McGowan (34:56.034)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (34:58.232)Pay attention to that. Like that means something. So yeah, I mean I I just think we’re widely outsourcing and w it’s getting probably worse before it’s getting better, unfortunately. but I just think it’s a different version of it now than it probably was however many hundreds of years ago. So, yeah, I would say don’t outsource and you know, on the tail end of that I would say like don’t sit in your shit and then complain about it being stinky either. Right? There’s a time and a place to to to mourn things or to be upset about things or to f really feel things and and experience them one hundred percent from an emotional standpoint. But it’s gotta go through the cycle. We can’t get stuck in part of the cycle, right? I always I always talk about like things are very cyclical as as it relates to nature. And if you get stuck in winter, you get stuck in spring. You like you just can’t do that. You have to keep it moving and let it go through this whole cycle. And yeah, don’t complain if You’re sitting in your shit constantly and and you’re c you’re like saying, why does it stink all the time? It’s like, Well, because you just sit there and you’re shit Nick McGowan (36:01.198)Look at it. Yeah. I think it’s a good point too to point out that it you shouldn’t outsource everything. We actually need to do more of our own work on our own to figure out what parts of it and all. And also that doesn’t take away from reaching out to other people or specifically having practitioners or different modalities that you go through to be able to help you with those things because we can’t just mindset our way through it. Melissa Coloton (36:12.917)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (36:25.217)Yeah. Nick McGowan (36:27.65)We can’t just think about those things and we can’t say like it’s going to be okay. There are different times you have to do work. As you know, you do that work. But being able to take from that to say that those things that we keep coming up against that keep rubbing us a weird way or making us feel some sort of way, that’s the crux moment where I think it can be easiest to just go, well, that sucks. I don’t like the thing. And then the run away instead of being like, this keeps coming back. So what do I do with it? Melissa Coloton (36:28.064)Right. Melissa Coloton (36:35.362)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Melissa Coloton (36:47.436)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (36:51.778)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Nick McGowan (36:55.96)Because then that’s really the start. Like you may have to talk to somebody. You may just have to sit by yourself for a few minutes to go, well, what the fuck? What is the thing? But you’re still going to need to go through that process to do it. and it helps us uncover what our purpose is through that to go, I don’t want to do this. I want to do more of that. And really when I wake up, I really want to do these things. But I’m in this spot now. So how the fuck do I get there? Melissa Coloton (37:02.636)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nick McGowan (37:18.744)Great, that’s the next part of your journey instead of being like, well, that shit sucks and stinks. And everybody, welcome. I’m Linus. You know, like it doesn’t make sense. Melissa Coloton (37:27.158)Yeah. And I mean, I’m certified life coach, so one hundred percent I I think people need to get the support. And I would say even in that scenario, right, you can’t get addicted to getting everything you need. You know, if that if you are talking to someone and they’re not giving you tools to slowly but surely like, you know, when I first started seeing my life coach and acupunctures, it was every week. Nick McGowan (37:41.88)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (37:53.933)Then it went down to every two weeks and then it went down to every month. And now it’s mostly monthly, but I ca you know, I can definitely skip months now. Whereas before it was like, God, right? So one hundred percent and that’s kind of what I mean by like sitting in your own shit too. Like if if you’re stuck somewhere and you just can’t find your way out of that, I mean, there was literally no way I was gonna get out of my situation with anxiety by myself. I mean, right, like I even I Nick McGowan (38:20.216)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (38:22.38)Went to a doctor, had medication, tried to see a counselor. She was awful, no offense, but she was. So I finally landed where I landed with my life coach and acupuncturist. I wouldn’t have been able to do that solely by myself. And he didn’t tell me what to do every second of every day. He taught me how to live with myself and connect with myself. And I took that very seriously. And for a while I intellectualized it because I think we all do that, right? I’m a very like, I get it. I get it. Nick McGowan (38:49.698)You have to. Melissa Coloton (38:52.332)But then there’s gotta be, there’s gotta be a component of embodying it and actually really truly doing that that work and not just being like, I get it. Cause what ends up happening is like you’ll be okay, I get it, I get it. And then the slightest little change in the breeze will knock you over. And now you’re just right back to where you were, right? So that’s where I was for a good while. I’m like, I get it, I get it, I got this. Like I can do this, ’cause that’s how I’ve been my whole life, right? Like, tell me I’ll do something, I’ll fucking do it. You only gotta tell me once. Nick McGowan (38:56.962)Mm. Nick McGowan (39:11.544)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (39:22.096)And and and but then when with that situation I did that and then like the slightest little thing would happen and I’d be kind of right back to square one, you know, it’s like monopolies like or whatever one of those board games where you have to go all the way back to the beginning all the time. So so after a while it was like, wait, this is what I’ve been doing my whole life is intellectualizing it and not actually truly connecting with my soul. So one hundred percent agree with you. There Nick McGowan (39:37.208)Yeah. Melissa Coloton (39:49.931)that’s why people exist is to help each other in my mind, you know, in some way, shape or form. And so find that good practitioner that you can trust and won’t just let you, you know, wallow in your own shit and just have you keep coming back every week with no changes. You know, if that’s the case, then there’s probably a different practitioner for you. Nick McGowan (40:10.529)That’s yeah, that’s a friend at that point. Like you should stop paying them and just hang out with them if that’s what you want to do. but you’re you’re right, it’s it’s all on us. and being open to those resources, I think is really the driver of what I think about. Like going, all right, well, I’m aware of this thing. What the fuck’s near me, what’s around me? And then actually going through the layers of how do I talk to that person or what do I do? Blah, blah, blah. But being able to ask those from the initial question of what’s going on inside is going to help you. so I appreciate you getting into that, especially getting into purpose work. That’s Melissa Coloton (40:13.432)Right. Melissa Coloton (40:22.555)yeah. Melissa Coloton (40:36.76)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (40:40.172)Always important on the show. So thank you so much for being with us today. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect? Melissa Coloton (40:41.496)Mm-hmm. Melissa Coloton (40:48.128)Yeah, the best the best place is my website, which is just melissacoloton.com. I also host a podcast myself called the Honor You Podcast. I love it when people go check that out, of course. Those are probably two the two of the best places, and that’ll direct you to all the socials and all that fun stuff. Yeah. Awesome. Nick McGowan (41:05.23)Cool. And I’ll have all that stuff in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for being on the call today. Melissa Coloton (41:10.018)Thanks for having me, Nick. It was a great conversation. https://youtu.be/gp_zfh3dOHQ

APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as “Gen-Z Uprisings” – movements led by young people and described in western media as generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism, like the flag of the “straw hat pirates,” a black flag depicting a grinning jolly roger wearing a straw hat. The flag is the banner of the protagonists of the long-running hit anime series One Piece whose adventures often find them coming to the defense of marginalized communities around their world. But these movements didn't come out of nowhere (or the internet for that matter). Understanding their origins – and the elections that have resulted from their successes – can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges we face building an alternative. In this episode we are looking at two countries, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. In this episode, we are joined by two US based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of South Asian diasporas has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who is currently the Organizing Director for 18 Million Rising. To learn more about 18 Million Rising, check out their site at www.18millionrising.org. Follow Sharmin on all platforms at @sharminultra Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He has spent the last 18 years involved in movement work here in the US. To learn more about The Ruckus Society and request a training, visit: www.ruckus.org/training-action-support/training-requests/ To learn more about Convergence Magazine and the Block and Build Podcast, follow them at @_convergencemag and @blockandbuildpod. Check out Covergence's work at www.convergencemag.com. Transcript Swati Rayasam: [00:00:00] welcome fellow travelers to Apex Express. It's been a minute, but in case you don't remember, my name is Swati Rayasam, and I'm gonna be your conductor tonight. I have been very excited about this week's episode for a few months because tonight Apex is featuring Convergence Magazine's Block and Build podcast. Block and Build is creating a roadmap for the movement that's working to block the impacts of [00:01:00] rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win. And both the team at Convergence and the guests for tonight's show are close comrades and friends of Apex. On this episode, Cayden Mak, podcast host and editor-in-chief of Convergence, is joined by Samir Shrestha and Sharmin Hossain, two US-based organizers from the South Asian diaspora, Nepal and Bangladesh respectively. Sharmin and Samir will talk about the history and continued struggles of the international Gen Z uprisings, which have only really made a blip in Western media coverage. They'll discuss the history of those movements and the political conditions which created them, as well as help us understand how Americans can be in meaningful solidarity with people's movements abroad. Without further ado, I'll hand it over to Cayden. Cayden: Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as the Gen Z uprisings, movements led by young people and described in Western media as [00:02:00] generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism. but these movements didn't come out of nowhere, or out of just the internet, for that matter. Understanding their origins and the elections that have resulted from their successes can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges that we face building an alternative. In this episode, we're looking at two countries in particular, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. I was recently joined by two US-based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of the South Asian diaspora has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who's currently the organizing director for 18 Million Rising. Sharmin, thanks so much for joining us today  Sharmin: Thank you for having me. I love Convergence.  Cayden: Thank you. [00:03:00] And, Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He spent the past 18 years involved in movement work here in the US, and Samir, it's really good to see you this morning.  Samir: So good to see you too, Cayden.  Cayden: Well, to start us off, let's try and set some context Sharmin. I'm wondering if you can give us kind of a quick gloss of the 2024 uprisings in Bangladesh, where Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina and her party were ousted from power. What are the sort of themes of the protests, and then the way that the state responded, and where are we kind of now? Sharmin: Wow, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to talk about my country and all the amazing things that happened, because I think the Global South really forges, like, new possibilities as far as, like, what we can do and, and consolidate as far as power goes. So today is actually March 26th, and it's Bangladeshi Independence Day, coincidentally. Cayden: Happy independence Day.  Sharmin: Happy Independence Day. I find it very serendipitous for us to delve into this layered and complex history, um, of the student movement. So [00:04:00] the Bangladesh student protests of July 2024, were deeply rooted in systemic inequalities that the young working class and the poor faced. Nearly 32 million young people were actually out of the workforce, or education in a population of a country of 170 million. So that's a pretty significant number. And so that issue was a focal point for widespread discontent in the country. In July of 2024, the High Court of Bangladesh actually reinstated a quota system for government jobs after an appeal was made when the then-ruling Hasina government abolished the quota system, um because in 2018 she faced a lot of pressure from student protesters. But this quota system is really interesting, and it represents a lot. It reserved 30% of government jobs for descendants of freedom fighters. And in Bangladeshi history, that's a very complex and layered identity. Millions of our [00:05:00] ancestors actually fought in the liberation war against the US-backed Pakistani military, and the Bangladeshi Liberation War, and genocide in Bangladesh actually resulted in the death of over three million people who sacrificed for the birth of our nation. And so for the Hasina government, the quota system was actually what she used to appoint a lot of her loyalists and her supporters to high levels of government, the military, and it basically created the political ecosystem for the Awami League, her party, to maintain dominance. And the Awami League actually was the party that once led the liberation struggle, and over the course of 15 years, we actually saw how much they consolidated power through political repression, the Digital Security Acts that was surveilling and targeting freedom of speech, as well as the corruption and fear that they [00:06:00] stoked against their opposition. And these government jobs, like most of us, it represents many things. It represents the government's responsibility to take care of poor people, um, economic and political opportunity, and it also represents, like, the corruption and the authoritarian rule of the Awami League, and how they were rigging elections, and how the court systems, and even entrance exams for the Bangladeshi civil service, were actually regularly leaked and compromised. And so -within that background, that's when you have the Students Against Discrimination movement take the streets in July demanding fair access to government jobs. And things actually got violent really fast. Within seven days, nearly 174 people were murdered, and thousands were injured. There was an indefinite curfew, social media blackouts, and then a military occupation with shoot on sight orders. And of course, the bullets that were raining upon, Bangladeshis were US, [00:07:00] arms. So students were terrorized by these vigilante groups that were collaborating with the Bangladeshi police. And these student groups were actually organized by the Bangladeshi Awami League. These student groups were notorious for repressing student elections, sexually assaulting students, um really threatening people that were running for student elections. And so there's already this, like, vigilante ecosystem that exists within the campuses that was weaponized during the student protests. And then you have a climax moment on July 14th. Sheikh Hasina went on television accusing the students of being Razakars, and Razakars are collaborators of the Pakistani army, and it's a very derogatory term in Bangladesh, and it refers to people who support the Pakistani military's operation to suppress the Bangladeshi Liberation War. They're also accused of heinous crimes. And so when students were accused of being Razakars, it, like, [00:08:00] lit a fire. Millions took the streets that day, and they were like, “Oh, hell no.” Like, “How dare she disrespect us?” While there's thousands of people who are on the streets, blood, everywhere. Rickshaw wallas are having to pull students into hospitals. There's just so much violence happening on the ground. And so on that National Day of Action, July 15th, clashes happen. Multiple deaths are live-streamed, and one of them, Abu Sayeed, he was a university student at Rangpur University in northwest Bangladesh, really galvanized the country because we watched this student, who is not armed, surrender and get sh- shot, by the Bangladeshi police. And we know what these spontaneous moments of violence do to the public, right? It usually always sets fire to another wave of social protests and action. And so then millions start marching to Sheikh Hasina's home, and [00:09:00] really, her brutal and arrogant response sealed her fate. And the protesters, and at this point, this is a populist movement, millions of people that are rickshaw wallas, working-class people, students, teachers, are taking the streets, marching towards her house. And they demand her resignation. And on August 5th, within 36 days of the movement, she resigns and flees to India, our neighboring country. Over 1,400 people have been killed, under her brutal repression. And so that's some of the background of the student movement, and we can talk more about some of the dynamics of it. Cayden: Yeah, that's super helpful, and I think reflecting on the ways in which also the sort of, like, escalation on the part of the government is, I think, a really important story here, for sure. Samir, I'll also now turn it to you. What should our listeners know about last fall's uprisings in Nepal, which also ousted the sitting government of, K.P. Oli and his, his party and how they led to [00:10:00] elections, earlier this month, in March of this year?  Samir: Thanks, Cayden, and Happy Independence Day to you, Sharmin. I am somebody who was born and raised in Nepal, and am spending most of my life in the diaspora now, and I wanna name the limitations of, uh, my understanding of what's going on in Nepal because of me not being on the ground organizing with the masses. And, I wanna honor the work that's been happening in Nepal, on the ground one of the big things that, that's really n- is important to name is, like, it's only been 20 years since we abolished monarchy. Uh- Mm-hmm. … uh, 2006, right? That is a big thing for us to understand. And the party that was in power, and has been in power since, was the party that has been organizing our movements, and that is the organized left in Nepal, and, like, really betrayed our people once we, once they got into power, right? And, like, started kind of veering towards the right once they got in power. So 20 years later The economic conditions of our people on the ground are really dire. There's no jobs available. People are migrating. A lot of our folks, one of the biggest source of economy and source of money for our, [00:11:00] our people back home is, like, migrant work, uh, in Dubai and, traveling to Dubai, Qatar, and working under very bad conditions. So one- that's one of the big things that's also been informing,, lot of the consciousness of the- our young people in Nepal, right? And then one of the other things that's named really important is, so since the election, since 2006, the Communist Party, the Congress Party, and the Maoist Party have been, they're the only ones who have been in power for the last 20 years, and these are all old upper caste men, even though they were the ones who were leading the movement and were organizing at left. But these were s- the representation and the leaders in these parties were all upper caste, caste Arya people, which is the dominant caste in Nepal, right? And that's a very important layer to name. And that really informed, I think, a lot of the ways they showed up after we won. And, and that's one, one big question that we always have in the left, right? What do we do after we- Yeah … abolish monarchy? What do we do after we win? And we haven't figured that out too, as does any other movements, right? And 20 years later, the frustration is on the very high, against the status quo. And then we, and there [00:12:00] was a lot of, like, obviously there was a lot of inspiration from Bangladesh, like Indonesia, and, like, the uprisings there. And, like, this one, uh, thing started trending the young people started organizing around Nepo babies. There's like, you know, “Yeah, you don't have access to we do, you're gonna take our access away from social media while your kids, and people who have connections to you and have, access to you are just posting about the life, the lavish life they're living abroad and in my homelands,” right? So that's one of the places where it started. And once that started, there was online campaign. And there was already conversations around banning social media in Nepal, and they were- Hmm … finding, like, different ways around it, and that really escalated the way people really responded to the situation, is like once they started organizing around Nepo babies and how they were, like, getting momentum around that, that's when exactly the social media ban went into effect, right? And that's a really important name because, like, one of the biggest pet peeves for me as a diaspora person has been this idea of people only started the uprising and took the streets because of the social media ban. [00:13:00] But just- Hmm. Mm-hmm … all these other things really added up to it. That was just the, just the point of escalation, right? So fast-forward, people started organizing on Discord. Uh, also the irony of it is that was one of the apps that was banned, uh, in Nepal as, uh… And people started organizing in Discord. And also wanna name the reality of, like, the only people who had access to Discord are also, like, privileged folks like us- Sure like younger, upper middle class people. So we were not really getting folks from outside Kathmandu and from our villages and from rural areas, right? So they didn't really have any say in what the organizing would look like. So it happened very, organically, very decentralized. So there was a call for people to show up at Maitighar which has been a popular protest space in Nepal, for a very long time. And it was like at the, at the center of Kathmandu. So there was a call out september 8. A lot of folks came out, and then people from outside Kathmandu that couldn't make it to Kathmandu started coming in big numbers. And the goal of the protest was peaceful protest, right? [00:14:00] And one of the things that happened, don't quote me on this, but my understanding of it from, talking to people there is, like, a lot of political parties who had, who were the opposition from the Communist Party at that time started infiltrating the protest, and the protest started becoming, quote-unquote, “violent,”, which was not, uh, what the young people wanted. So fast-forward, that led to 19 deaths on the first day of the protest, which led to the home minister resigning, at the end of the day. But Oli, the prime minister, is so arrogant and really didn't figure out the power of young people and, like, how they could keep mobilizing and organizing. He decided to just downplay them and say, “I'm not resigning,” which led to more heightened escalated protests the second day, where people started marching to the parliament buildings and started burning down buildings. And people started, people got to a lot of, like, the political parties' political party leader home and started burning them, and, really started, holding them accountable. And also , there was videos of clips of, like, people torching into people's homes and, like, [00:15:00] Sher Bahadur Deuba, who has been in power for the last 20 years in different, ways, who's one of the, considered one of the most corrupt leader in Nepal, from Nepali Congress party, got attacked by the protesters. So fast-forward, more escalation led to, like, 52 more deaths, and the Oli party finally decided to resign at the end of that night, and that's, that's when curfew was impo- imposed by, the army. So that led to, like, a total of 72 deaths. I wanna name, like, in just the two days of mobilization, two days of organizing, because sometimes in the left we don't understand. We talk about the similarities of our struggles but we don't really talk about the conditions that led to it and, like, the level for the risk that our folks leveraged, to be able to topple the government, right? So I just wanna name that out loud and honor that part of, like, how the, how people, like, really leveraged risk. And then fast-forward, people started organizing. The conversation kept going on on Discord, and then there was, like, a town hall style meetings happening on Discord where, like, I think 7 to 8,000 people were on it. And also I still wanna name again, the people who didn't have access to the internet and [00:16:00] phones were not able to part- participate in that. And decided Susila Karki, who was a chief justice 10 years ago, a woman, who also joined protesters during the first day of them mobilizing in the street. They decided, they voted, to hold her as the interim prime minister for now. And There was also one other layer is like a lot of people wanted Balen Sah, who is our prime minister now, but constitutionally if he was part of the interim government, he wouldn't be able to run for prime minister. So that was like a strategic decision that, uh, like he made, and the movement made around not electing him as part of the interim government. So one of the big responsibilities of the interim government was to hold elections in six months, which honestly I was not very-  Cayden: That's hugely ambitious. Samir: It is hugely ambitious, right? And also the reality is it happened, and also there are questions around, yeah, were we able to hold elections in a way where everybody had access to it, right? And that is a big question that I'm still asking, I'm still sitting with. But there were like record numbers that showed up to the polls, but [00:17:00] we haven't really, like we still really don't have answers around what accessibility looked like for people to show up at the polls. And fast-forward now, the Rastriya Swatantra Party which emerged at like a, at a very popular party in 2022, won with majority. And we just sworn in our new Prime Minister Balen Sah yesterday, we can talk about more later. Cayden: Well, thank you for summing up, both of you for summing up- Pretty long, complex histories fairly quickly for us. I've been thinking about the way that, like, Western media largely reports on these kinds of uprisings as if they come out of nowhere. And, like, we know as movement people that rarely, if ever, like, do they truly come out of nowhere. So, like, yeah, I wanna dig into what the longer arc of these stories really is. And I, I really wanna talk about, I guess, like, the specific texture in both Bangladesh and Nepal about how these protest movements position themselves against the government, against, like, other social forces, and, like, how kind of, like, other social phenomena acted on and shaped [00:18:00] these movements as well. Sharmin: I love that question 'cause it allows us to see, like, also the rich history of our, like, respective areas, and how much, like, young people have always been at the forefront of so many revolutionary struggles. And we often, um, you know, uh, post social media era like to make generalizations that this never existed before. But actually, you know, in Bangladesh, students are the most incredibly organized force that has shaped much of our history since 1947. The 1969 uprisings against Ayub Khan, the 1971 Liberation War, and then the , 1987 protests against the military dictator Ershad. And then later, our return to democratic governance in 1990 and the road safety protests of 2018, which actually laid the groundwork for so much of the student, frustration with the government not being able to keep students safe because of road safety issues and [00:19:00] just, the general mismanagement of transportation and, public resources. And so the campus has always been a key space for the pulse of the nation. But it's also a key space for goons and vigilante groups to organize their forces. So the Bangladesh Awami League has their faction, the Chhatra League, and then there's, you know, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which is the right-wing Islamist group of Bangladesh that has been growing, has their faction, the Chhatra Shibir. And then the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, which, you know, has been in opposition to the Awami League, also has their goons on campuses. And so one of the major, trends you'll see during these moments is how these factions are actually weaponized to make sure that the violent state apparatus is deployed within public spaces. And, you know, you asked about, like, missteps and some of the things that political formations, might forget to plan for or think [00:20:00] about. And, you know, one of the things that I, I'm sure Samir can relate a little bit is, like, a lot of these student organizations, you know, students against discrimination, there was a group of men who claimed leadership of the student movement and formed, a party, the National Citizens Party. And you notice quickly the contradictions of their formation. All the women leaders were either asked to leave or they left because of what an undemocratic, unfeminist space it was. And then you noticed quickly that the National Citizen Party started allying itself with the right-wing forces to gain a populist base. And that, to me, is the, one of the biggest contradictions of what do leftists do when we gain power? And also, like, the sober conversation is, are these leaders leftists? Or did-  Cayden: Yeah, were they ever? Were they ever?  Sharmin: Or did we project our leftist dreams onto them and I think one of the things that [00:21:00] we've been doing for many generations, and I think Vincent Bevins' work really synopsizes this well, in looking at the last decade of popular uprisings, is that we've been doing politics without ideology, right? Mm-hmm. That these political for- formations actually don't have a coherent theory of change when they're contesting for power. And so you notice quickly the National Citizens Party was very reactionary, and it was very anti-fascist by, their vernacular, but what anti-fascism meant was that we hate the Awami League, we're gonna ban the Awami League, and the Awami League is no longer going to exist. And then we're- Yes … gonna fight for Sheikh Hasina to be hanged, right? And so that became their populist slogan.  Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And so, you know, there is no left force in Bangladesh, and that's something that we have to name, that for sure there are garment workers that are organizing a party. There's a communist league that does not actually grow in their base. Um- Hmm … and that is why coming out of [00:22:00] the July uprisings, you notice this leadership actually turned center right really fast because they didn't have a, a vision that was rooted in economic and political struggles of the working-class students who made up majority of the base of people that were on the streets. Um, and you know, it was surprising, Cayden, I'll just say, like, after the, the NCP was getting ready for elections that just happened this past February, they joined a coalition with the largest Islamist force of Bangladesh, and this is such a misstep, right? To join forces. W- your enemy of your enemy is not your friend, right? Like, wh- where, like, where, when has that gotten us anywhere? It falls into the traps of organizing without a clear, coherent ideology, and then the post-uprising impact is weakened. And so a lot of that groundwork of, like, theoretical work, we actually have to do that to be able to be ready for fights that take power in the way that [00:23:00] feel, restorative and generative, instead of what we're seeing now, which is a populist right-wing growth in Bangladesh. Cayden: That feels like such an important lesson that we need to learn, unfortunately, over and over again, and I feel like this theme of, the enemy of my enemy is sometimes still my enemy has been coming up on this show a lot lately. That like, it, I, uh, you know, we see it happening in our movement politics here too, especially in, in this sort of moment of authoritarian retrenchment in our own government, that like, there are, there are challenges around that, and there's like ways that I think, yeah, it makes sense that it feels good in the moment to be like, “Yeah, there's more of us than there are of them.” But it's like, well, who, who are us? Like, what is the us that we're talking about? Samir, I will pass it to you to talk about, I guess, some of the texture that we should know about the protest movement in Nepal, and like what are the ways that, other social forces also outside the state have shaped the way that the protests have played out there. Samir: I was listening to Sharmin, and I was like, “Oh, there's so many similarities,” [00:24:00] like in a lot of the political forces that led our movements and also like talking about K.P. Oli, there's so many similarities of like how they were the face of the movement. And as somebody who really admired K.P. Oli because, you know, he was part of the social movement left. He was part of , like the first people's movement struggles, uh, that happened in the '90s that got rid of absolute monarchy. He was the face of the Communist Party. He did take up arms, right? So all of the tools that our revolutionary histories have used to, find liberation, right? So he used a diversity of tactics. Like, he started as somebody who believed in picking up arms. And then he led a people's movement in the '90s of, like with other political parties to get rid of the Panchayat system, which was a system of absolute monarchy and where all the political parties were dissolved right by the king from the 1960 to 1990, right? But one of the big things that I think we didn't think about when our movements were being led, when our movement ancestors were organizing and like really thinking about is like what does identity mean for our movements. There's political forces, [00:25:00] the social movement parties that are leading our people and organizing our people, and they did the organizing that happened in Nepal, the door-to-door, the base building that happened, if that was done by political parties, right? Which is true, and we need to name that layer, too. And I think one of the things that we're missing in this moment right now is we have been so, so frustrated by the last 20 years of governance by these forces. We wanna forget the political history of how we got here, right? Mm-hmm. And that has been one of my big critique of the young people in Nepal, right? And for me, I also think about as somebody who's getting older and also had access to my dad who was part of this movement, right? He was a big force as part of the Communist Party, and now he's heavily traumatized because of the way he got betrayed by his comrades, right? And I think one of the forces I was talking about identity is, like, all of these political forces were led by upper caste Brahmin men, and there was no indigenous representation. So finally, the 1990, we were able to get rid of absolute [00:26:00] monarchy. By '96, we still don't have full democracy in Nepal, so, you know, the Maoists decided to wage a civil war where they really organized the masses, and really created conditions for the monarchy, to bow down, right? And the Maoist party came out of this forest and, like, built a coalition with the Communist Party and the Congress Party to take the streets again. In 2006, we finally were able to get rid of monarchy, but 2006 to 2014 was a struggle to, like, really, draft a new constitution for us, where we made some progress and where we also did some things where it took us back around, like, women's rights, right? And so there was a big feminist movement that really created, like, organizing conditions of 2026 in so many ways, right? And one of the things that we were seeing during the last 20 years is what's happening is all the communist parties, the people who led our movements and uprisings were veering towards the right, right? Hmm. Because they consolidated more power, like, you know, exactly what happened with, uh, Bangladesh. They consolidated more power where, you know, they could stay in power [00:27:00] for long. The indigenous folks were part of the struggles and the uprisings in the 100 years of our movement struggles. But once we won and they got, the Communist Party got into power, they started, like, pushing policies that would not benefit indigenous peoples, right? And then one of the big things that Nepal wanted is federalism in terms of, like, one of the big critiques of Nepal has been the government is so centralized in Kathmandu. Other people outside of Kathmandu really don't get to take part in politics. And, so federalism was one of the big things that we pushed for, right? At Indigenous Struggles, that is the one thing that we pushed for so that we can govern our homelands, and that was the one thing that Oli was, like, against too, and that was also one of the reasons why he started becoming less and less popular, right? But one of the things that's 2026 was, I think it's also really important to understand, is the 2026 uprisings were led by youth who I believe, I dare to say, didn't have, the full understanding, the political understanding of our political histories in that way. And there's this, like, disconnect in terms of, like… it's hard for me to bridge the 100 years of left in Nepal [00:28:00] and like, you know, this youth uprising that's happening in Nepal that has no connection because it's not an organized group, right? It's very decentralized. Right. It happened on Discord. And that is one of the big questions we have now is, like, how do we as young people, the young people who led this uprisings, how do they stay organized, right? And that is a big question we still don't, we don't have answers to, right? The movement histories and, you know, the last 20 years has been very traumatizing, but there's also so many lessons and so many beautiful things that happened during the organizing, right? So how do we make those connections? How do we ask those questions? How do we talk to this feminist group? How do we talk to, like, workers, right? We need to figure that out. And I think one of the big things, like Sharmin talked about too, is like the student protest student movements were a big part of how we got liberation in Nepal, and the student movements are like directly connected to political parties because they have the student wing. But that also doesn't mean they are not organized. Yes, they were organized, and they really figured it out, but they have gotten corrupt. There's goons there, there's only men there. [00:29:00] And, like, how do we really ask those questions as a movement now and start building on some of our social movement histories? And that is a big question. And I haven't heard anything, and I'm very curious what's gonna happen on that, and I've been sitting with that a lot, too.  Cayden: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I feel like thinking about the challenges in remembering and then sometimes, like, having movement history misremembered to us by people with motivations. I can see how in that way for these young people who are getting organized, who are, like, trying to figure out what they want from the government in the future . there's some real, delicate territory for them to negotiate around, like, understanding themselves in a lot of ways as political and historic actors, which is really interesting. Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org.  Cayden: One of the other trends that [00:30:00] I would love to talk about is this, sort Western media trend where, an uprising happens somewhere, a protest movement happens somewhere, and they're like, “Oh, there's an interim government. Great.” And then, like, in the US, we don't hear anymore the establishment of interim government is, first of all, deeply informed by the social movements and social forces that are already moving on the ground and also glosses over the way politics is done in a particular place. I'm wondering if there's stuff that you've noticed that has really been lost from the international media discourse about the politics of both Bangladesh and Nepal since the sort of student uprising moment. And if there's stuff that you've been seeing in the like, interim government moments that you're like, “Oh, this is something to watch out for.” Like, “This is something that we can draw some lessons from.”  Sharmin: Yeah. Well, in Bangladesh we had a United States favorite Nobel Laureate, you know, Muhammad Yunus- Mm-hmm as our interim government. And, and I think what's so fascinating is that, you know, he is the world's sweetheart because he created [00:31:00] this, like, you know, microfinancing program that is, a program that they say, you know, empowers the poor people. And, we know that in practice it actually did not reverse poverty, and it actually left millions of people in more debt, than, they or- originally were projected to gain. And so I think what's very fascinating about having such a pro-capitalist, figure that is, a sweetheart of empire, it spoke to his legacy in office, you know? During his time, he also signed one of the most devastating US-Bangladesh trade agreements with Trump- Hmm … which actually, further isolates China from the Bangladeshi trade market and, forces Bangladesh to do all of our trade deals with the US. And it's a non-binding agreement. And so it is, deeply unlawful and also devastating to the economy of this area of Southeast Asia that actually needs China as, an ally, as a country that has, contributed a lot to the development of [00:32:00] our, transportation systems and, so for us it- it's also about how much of this interim government was, you know, representing the interests of the global elite and what he was willing to do to be able to s- to, to squash, revolutionary energy within the country. The Women's Commission was one of the most powerful consolidation of feminist leaders under the interim government that were looking to reform land laws for women. And similar to what, Samir was saying, right? Women's rights just are the first thing that these governments throw under the bus and that- women's commission report that was looking to really examine land laws and inheritance laws and and the rights of women economically like actually triggered one of the largest anti-feminist rallies in the country's history- Wow … where millions, millions of Jamaat-e-Islami men and their supporters took the streets in [00:33:00] protest of women having rights. And that was something you did not see the Western media touch, even-  Cayden: No …  Sharmin: even though the Western media was, like, so excited for this revolution, right? You know, on the ground too, you have those people that are like, “This is a CIA-backed, like, uprising,” right? And then on the ground you see, like, oh yeah, people actually don't want to touch the complexities of this country because it is layered within, like, religious nationalisms- Mm-hmm ethnic nationalisms, and caste. And so in my experience, I would just say that people know very little of the political forces within this, greater West Asian political landscape and how it connects to US imperialism here and abroad, you know? Pakistan was once the CIA's closest ally in the Cold War, and they continue to be during the war on terror right now, right? Mm-hmm. The United States provided Pakistan with military, diplomatic, and economic support because a [00:34:00] pro-US military dictatorship in this region that was a staunch anti-communist ally created a buffer between the axis of the USSR, China. Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And then I'll say at the same time, on the ground, there were dozens of reports of mobs that were attacking temples and Hindu leaders. Hindus are a minority in Bangladesh that have been historically, marginalized, and these contradictions were, were getting highlighted, right? Because that violence was eerily similar, right? The partition of South Asia- Yeah …  Cayden: excluded  Sharmin: Hindu-Muslim communalism, and there were tensions and divides that fell across class lines. And for Western and, hegemonic media outlets, this looked like, oh, the Muslims are attacking the Hindus again.  Samir: Right.  Sharmin: And so for me, like, the being able to reckon Islamophobia, communal violence, identity and class politics, but also the way nationalism operates in South Asia, it, it's a tricky dance [00:35:00] And I've been learning how to really convey this complex history because the country's, uh like, beautiful history of, like, using guerrilla warfare to defeat US-backed forces in the region, it also represents something different from its neighbors, India and Pakistan. Mm-hmm. And within that, you know, we have Bangladesh joining the PLO in Lebanon to fight on behalf of Palestinian liberation. We have the fact that the country's actually i- inception was based on a socialist vision, right? And it's now one of the fastest-growing economies in the world with the fast fashion garment industry that's also ravaged by climate crisis and mass displacement. And so for me, it always just comes back to anti-war and anti-imperialism, like all the nodes of my brain, because I'm like, “Here's this US global death-making machine and this defense industry that sells tear gas shells to my country and [00:36:00] sells Israeli surveillance technology to my country.” And then there's this Bangladesh trade agreement that Trump was able to wager during this vulnerable moment for our country and it's at the core of all the political and economic violence within my country. And so the neoliberalization of our campuses and what these students are facing is because of the war economy. And so, so I just, like, zoom out in those moments, and I'm like, “Oh, this, this feels very much so like Cold War politics and the aftermath.”  Cayden: Yeah, like the politics of the Cold War have just simply never left us. Like, they're still here, and it's like we've sort of swapped in China as the big bad in a lot of ways.  Sharmin: Right.  Cayden: Samir, I wonder if there's, stuff that you've been seeing about the interim government in Nepal that you think are worth our sort of examination as kind of like lessons that we can draw from what happens after the protest, and yeah, like how that has been part of the electoral moment also we're in in Nepal right now. Samir: Yeah, [00:37:00] well, the interim government was, what was it, about five months. I think we didn't really see a lot of work that happened from the interim government, but obviously one of the big wins of the interim government was they were successfully able to hold elections. And the Western media has only focused on Balen Saha, this, quote-unquote, “rapper,” this charismatic guy who is gonna, who's 35 years old and is gonna lead. And then like Sushila Karki, I mean, one of the big things that everybody is like, “Oh, she's the first woman prime minister of Nepal, and what does that mean for us?” And, you know, this identity politics of like, “Oh, we finally got a woman president.” And for us it's like when we talk about it, that's the only thing we see in the discourse. But the reality is she was also a woman prime minister in an interim government that she knew was gonna last for six months, right? And also one of the things that a lot of people don't think about and realize is like the youth really didn't know who she was. And I think that's one of the big things that Sarmin talked about too, is like how do our youth have the consciousness? And do we have a left, social movement left, that's actually supporting them to really understand, you know, the conditions [00:38:00] of our people and who we're electing and, like, how we're organizing and what that means for us, right? But one of the big popularities about her was, like, she was not a career, jurist as she was appointed, was a lawyer that was appointed to the Supreme Court in 2009 by the Judicial Council, and she had this reputation of pushing back against some of the political parties and some of the establishments in that time. So that was, like, one of the big things that really lured our folks, there was this one interview of her that went really viral about how she talks about, you know, establishment parties and how she challenged, some of the status quo while she was… Because a lot of times what happens with some of these appointments are people who are loyal to the to the parties, right? That was the one big thing that really attracted a lot of our young folks, to mobilize around her being the prime minister. And it's just, like, a lot of unknowns around, like, we still don't know because with the older parties, it was very clear to us that the Communist Party was, like, more loyal to China, right? And the Congress party was more loyal to India. And then one of the things a lot that we don't see in the discourse even in left spaces, right? Even [00:39:00] in, like, media spaces is, more than US imperialism, India and China is also waging some form of imperialism in our homelands, right? And that we don't wanna name that layer because in the US, as, us being in the belly of the beast, our only responsibility is to fight US imperialism. And then for me, as somebody from the Global South, I understand that how that impacts our movement and how that is dangerous and harmful to our people in our, back in our homeland. Because China and India are bullying Nepal in a lot of different ways politically, right? Because nothing happens in Nepal without the consent of India and China, right? And India obviously has more power, and they're, like, fighting over that power in Nepal right now. And the other thing that I wanted to name is, I was hoping K.P. Oli, during our interim prime ministership, during that interim government, would be held accountable, which didn't happen. And we're not talking about that, right? And also she [Karki] had a lot of limitations, and we still are figuring out what, like, what kind of power she held, right? But the hope was for me was, like, that she would hold the people who were responsible for our people's deaths accountable during the six months she was there, which [00:40:00] really didn't happen and really moved. And that's one of the things that hasn't been talked about, and I think that was a big political opportunity for her to do some of that work to push K.P. Oli out of power because he, after doing all of this, was still able to contest the elections and lost really badly. But one of the things for me, the inspiration was, like, how Sheikh Hasina was pushed out of the country, right? Like, that was one of the hopes and dreams, and that didn't really happen, during this interim government.  Cayden: Hmm. That's interesting that there's, like, a possibility that he might be back. Well, I wanna turn a little bit to thinking about this history that's been unfolding and, like, what it is like to be observing, talking to comrades and loved ones as an organizer who's based here in the US as part of your diasporic community. One of the things I think a lot about is, like- When we talk about solidarity with people's movements internationally in the US, sometimes we forget that, like, people from those diasporas are our comrades. They are here. And that we have a lot to, [00:41:00] like, learn from them. What has it been like watching the sort of, like, social movements in Bangladesh and Nepal respectively, and what has it been like to have that consciousness as an organizer here in the US dealing with all of the political stuff that we've been dealing with here? Samir: I love that you asked that question, Cayden, and also, like, yes, I just wanna start with, like, this layer of like, oh, yes, we have comrades here who are from these diasporic communities who actually can inform us in this. And to add another layer to that, even with, with my, you know, my history of being born and raised in Nepal and, like, being connected to our movements there and, like, living here for the last 20 years now, right? That also creates another layer where I don't have access to everything, and that also creates a layer of, like, that I don't have to know everything, right? And I wish our left- Mm-hmm … Western left understood that layer sometimes because – In our movements, I'm gonna go be a little– I'm gonna little shit about our movements here, you know? Because one of the things that happens is, like, the romanticization of what's going on in our homelands without understanding, and this idea- Mm-hmm of, like-like, we have to know the answers to every… It's okay to not have answers. I think that's a big thing that I reflect on a lot as somebody here, [00:42:00] right? And also, the reality is I have access to my father, who is, for me, the only revolutionary that I know who was part of, like, social movements and who, like, really spent his whole life to the movement and is now still doing things after being betrayed by his party, right? So I think that's one of the big things. I think it's okay to know that. I think the second thing for me as somebody in the diaspora, it's my role in the diaspora. It's also what is my role in the diaspora to inform my comrades. If you're an upper-caste person, it is your responsibility to name that in the movement spaces that you hold and name that layer- Mm … and inform people about that layer. I think about that a lot. I sit up, I sit with that and reflect on that a lot, and that really informs the way I show up as somebody in the diaspora. And my responsibility, one of the things that we saw when all of this was happening you know, the movements, the social movement left was so fast, got into this train of, like, it's a Color Revolution [i.e., the revolution is backed by the US government/is a US-led intervention], as if our peoples don't have the capacity to organize. Yes, there was infiltrations. Yes, India was involved. But yes, there was also uprising where 70 people died, right? So just, bringing it down to, like, it's not really being complex and, like, [00:43:00] being nuance about that. And that really is harmful to our people back home, right? Because that, in that, when we're doing that, we're taking away, like, access from our people in terms of, like, how they are doing things. And also, like, really, I think invalidating the fact that our, the governments that was being oppressing against the uprisings are oppressive. So that just, like, invisibilizes, uh, what the state is doing, right? Because it is a Color Revolution, you know. The, it is not led by the people. We're, there was even sign, things like they said, like, “Oh, there were signs in English.” Like, can you just think about, you know, the, the orientalist, uh, you know-  Cayden: Yeah …  Samir: orientalist way that you are thinking even as somebody who considers yourself a social movement left. So that's, I think, one my, that, for me, that is a big responsibility. And- And that is where I can also make an impact as somebody in the diaspora. I am not on the ground, that is the reality of it, and knowing where I can make impact and how I can make impact, and knowing very clearly that I don't have all the answers, and I'm not– I'm an outsider in so many… I go back home every time I go home for a couple of months, the way I show up in these movement spaces [00:44:00] is I'm here to listen and I'm an outsider, and I'm trying to figure out how I can support you, right? And that is, for me, a role as a diasporic person, and I'm very clear on that. And I think it's also because I have access to my dad who grounds me in that, and it's like- Mm-hmm “Samir, you don't live here anymore.” He will remind me very clearly. He's like, “You don't live here anymore.” And you need to understand that, and that's okay.” And he will ground me in that, and that really helps me in terms of thinking of how I wanna show up as a diasporic person.  Cayden: Yeah. No, that's, that's really helpful, and I think that, like, this thing that you're describing about the sort of like in some ways, like, healthy, but in other ways sort of, like, overblown skepticism that US observers can have about uprisings, revolutions in other countries just because, like… The, the word that came to mind as you were describing it was, like, infantilizing, right? That it's, like, as if people can't independently form their own political opinions without the intervention of the, like, global superpower is just sort of, like, baffling to me. You hit on something that, like, I think about a lot [00:45:00] also as somebody who is, like, a generation removed from the immigrant generation in my family. I don't have a ton of relationships with my family who are in Hong Kong and China, but, like, how do I, like how do I relate to that? It's very challenging, and it's- and I, I think that there's so much in, like, US like left social movement discourse that I'm just kind of like, “I actually don't know how to relate to this as a diasporic person sometimes.” Sharmin, I'm also interested to hear from you on this.  Sharmin: Yeah. Yeah, similarly, I feel, I feel like there is this, like, uh, relationality that it's pushing people that are here to really think about more clearly. I feel like some of the early '70s through the '90s was a very, like, symbolic type of solidarity that we had- Mm-hmm where, where, you know, we would do the cultural attire, the cultural associations, you know, the melas, which are, like, big fairs that we have in these hubs of, like, immigrant communities. And now I think the politics are coming back. Like, I think after the July uprising, [00:46:00] you actually saw solidarity actions popping up across hubs in, you know, New York and California where people were like, “Actually, this impacts me and I wanna talk about what this means. I wanna talk about the cultural and political organizations that run this local community.” And one thing that I really took back from the last two visits to Bangladesh is really learning the skills of talking to somebody who disagrees with me because-  Cayden: Hmm …  Sharmin: I think in the United States the left does not practice, being able to engage, talk, even, like, be in relationship with people that might be politically opposed to you. And so when I go to Bangladesh, I'm actually surrounded by a lot of homophobes. I'm surrounded by a lot of men who, like, support the Awami League, and I've had to kind of, like, sit in this in between of being like, “Oh, yeah, like, I actually have to learn how to debate better. I have to learn how to, like, you know, be that person that's, like, holding humanity but also holding the, the critical left analysis that I, I believed in to be right because I [00:47:00] know I'm right.” Right? And I know that, like, this is a hill that's worth dying on. And I think with Mamdani's win in, in New York, like, there's so many examples of how that, like, South Asian left politic that's actually talking about class exists- Mm-hmm.  Cayden: Yeah …  Sharmin: within the geography of our communities. And, you know, especially for, you know, Samir and I are, like, the minority South Asians, so we're not the Indian upper caste. And so for us, we're like, “This has always been the reality of our people.” They are working-class organizers. They're people who know how to talk about the intricacies of domestic labor, about the unorganized labor forces, about the people that are left out of the political agenda of our government. And so for me, like, I really take some of the lessons that DRUM [ Desis Rising Up and Moving]  is doing on the ground in New York around what it means to actually build a member base that's rooted in relationship, but also towards a North Star. And that North Star, it looks a little socialist. It looks a little working class. It looks [00:48:00] very deeply rooted in a feminist, anti-oppressive politic. And I think for someone in diaspora, that's been the biggest growth area for me, where I'm like, “How do I hold this vision and not lose hope that my people are not, like, all right-wing people that are out to, like, you know, destroy me and my people?” But we are in this center-right populous moment that will require us to do cultural shift. It will require us to do that, like, slow work of tilling the land, like Ella Baker spade work. And you know, a comrade of mine, Nafiz, who's a brilliant writer at Jamhor, when I was talking to him about processing the February elections, he was just like, “You know, I actually think, like, I'm seeing a lot of possibility right now because I saw what happened to Egypt after Tahrir Square, and I saw where Egypt went and what a military dictatorship did to that country.” And he was like, “And Bangladesh, that's not what happened to us.” And, and he was like, “And this is important for us to really reckon with how… Not to [00:49:00] say, like, ‘Oh, it could be so much more worse,' but it could be so much more worse.” And we have to work within these, like, terrains in a way that's, like, really reckoning with why are people wanting to find comfort in these right-wing religious social groups, because they are the only organized groups of people that are providing shelter and food. And so unless the left fills that gap, we are gonna see right-wing populism, and we've seen it within white supremacy here, but it translates to every Global South country, from Brazil to, you know, um, obviously South Asia. And so yeah, I just am trying to be more, like, relative in that way, where I'm like-  Cayden: Hmm Sharmin: “Oh, we're a lot more relative than we think we are.”  Cayden: Yeah. That is such a good insight about, like, having to context switch Across geography, across political context, like builds a, like a really important muscle for us as organizers. This has been an absolutely fantastic [00:50:00] conversation and I've learned so much from both of you. My one sort of like, well I have two outgoing questions and they're sort of related to one another. One is thinking about like as a monolingual English speaker, as somebody who's like in the US, I think one of the things that I've often felt a challenge around is like where do I look to for news, for updates, and for analysis about what's going on in the Global South, especially for places where I have no cultural or language connection. And like when you're assessing news and information that's coming out about movement politics. What do you consider, what do you think about, what are the questions you ask yourself when you're like seeing headlines, kinda day-to-day that you think would be useful for other folks to start thinking about? Sharmin: Yeah. I, I really think about, like, multiple nationalisms right now, that there's, like, these competing forces of, like, who gets to tell the story. And I always, like to think about, like, how, uh, US [00:51:00] interests, Chinese interests, or even, like, Indian interests are determining the news landscape right now. And I don't like to think about it, but I, I've been looking at so much coverage that feels very much like, yikes, like what is going on, with our, like, news ecosystem? And unfortunately, I think we need to get back on Facebook. Like, I think that the fact that- … progressives and the left have left Facebook, like, I get it. Fuck Meta, and Facebook is the main place for so much like organizing. And we-  Cayden: Contest every space.  Sharmin: Get back on Facebook. Who cares if there are right-wing trolls on it? You we have to create alternative like information systems that are, like, really amplifying to these networks and groups of people that are getting inundated with that information. And I think we're really lucky because there's a lot of leftist South Asian publications now, Himal South Asian, Jumphore, you could become Patreon supporter and really be a part of these legacy, South Asian [00:52:00] left, thinkers that are actually thinking about, like, the long-term arc, and they, they're contending with socialism. They're contending with the communist, like, legacies of our organizations. And so, I just really appreciate that they're doing political analysis with politics and not just focusing on, like, symbolic forms of, like, political analysis. So shout-out to them and, and their hard work because yeah, they, they're English media that is getting translated for this day and age, you know? Cayden: Yeah. I… It was really exciting to me to, like, do a lot of the sort of, like, background for this conversation and find, like, English language movement media coming out of South Asia. I was like, “This is so exciting.” Like, this is… I feel like in some ways the thing that they're trying to do is, like they're kind of our comrades- Mm-hmm in a sense, right? Like, they're trying to do a similar thing to the thing that we're trying to do at Convergence, and I was like, “Ooh, this is really cool. Like, I'm bookmarking this.” Yeah. So I don't know. Samir, do you have, do you have other thoughts about, like, what things [00:53:00] US people should be thinking about as they're kind of assessing news and developments? Samir: Yeah, big ups Himal Magazine. I think that is a big source of information for me too. And also as somebody who struggles with reading Nepali now, which I'm very embarrassed of it's really hard for me to get access. to. I have to sit with my dad to, like, really go through some of the news articles, which, you know, my dad gracefully agrees. Uh, I think one of the big things is, like, I do benefit a lot from his free labor. I'll just name that on this podcast. But I think, and one of the things I would say is like- Thanks,  Cayden: dad …  Samir: really, like, figuring out, like, I don't know, like, pushing through the binary of, like, what US imperialism means for Nepal and what also there's, there could be other forms of imperialism that I named earlier, that Sharmin named too. And also right now, I think there's a lot of unknowns for us too, right? We have this party that was not part of the political establishment that came into picture in 2024. So we are still grappling with the idea of, like, what does this mean for us? Who are they gonna be loyal to, and how does, what does this mean for geopolitics in Nepal, right? So we are still sitting with that question. And there is some clarity around, I think one of the things I would say is there's a [00:54:00] lot of excitement, even in diaspora community, and my role in the diaspora also has been talking to some of my friends who are stoked about this prime minister right now because we haven't built a left that is informing them of the nuances and, like, how we can actually figure out the critique of this person, right? Because for me, I think it's really important the social movement left to understand because even my friend, my comrades are sending me, “Oh, this rapper is a prime minister now.” It's somebody that I trust a lot, right? Yeah. And I have to do the work of like, “Hey, this person has this history of governing in this way when he became the mayor of Kathmandu, where he was against poor people,” right? He did some changes, structural changes that helped, upper middle class people. And using that as a way to, like, really assess what he's gonna do for Nepal, and I'm actually skeptical, right? He is somebody from the Madhesi movement, which is a indigenous group that is very marginalized in Nepal, but he also comes from a very upper class background, right? And that's also real. We have to name that. His party's ideology is to push us away from federalism in some sense, right? And also the reality is they had a majority, they won a majority because we didn't have a social movement left outside of political parties that would help us assess him, right? [00:55:00] So that's, I think that's the question. Those are some of the questions I would love people to ask, because I am asking those questions as somebody who is from Nepal and from the diaspora, and I check myself every time. And yeah, I will end it with, like, it's okay to not have all the answers, and just, yeah, do some of that work of, like, reflecting on, like, asking yourself how you are taking in some of the information that you're seeing. And obviously, Himal Magazine is a big source, and one of the Substacks that I would highly recommend too is, I think we could put it in the links later, it's called Kalam Weekly, which is on Substack. I have some critiques of their writing too, but that's really been helping me understand what's going on in Nepal right now.  Cayden: You both have been so incredibly generous with your time, and this has been such a rich conversation. I don't know if there are places also where if our listeners want to follow your work, I don't know, if there's organizations or places where you are publishing thoughts, either your own or organizationally that you wanna share. Sharmin, is there any place people can find you online? Sharmin: Yeah, for sure. We're building the Asian American left at 18 Million Rising, so you could follow us there, and I'm @sharminultra [00:56:00] on all social media.  Cayden: And Samir, is there a place people can find you?  Samir: Uh, yeah, I am a very quiet person. Uh, but direct action has been a big part of our struggles in the last few years, and we are really thinking about, like, how we can escalate strategically, so I am part of a network of direct action trainers called the Ruckus Society. Hit us up. We do trainings, go to our website, request a training if you need any direct action support. We love nerding out on action design and thinking about action curriculum and how we train our people to do action safely. And follow Ruckus Society, and I don't really have a social that's public, so…  Cayden: that's so fair. I respect your choice not to be perceived.  Samir: I mean, also, I'm not Sharmin, I feel I learn from her so much, from Sharmin, so I just wanna name that, and also just from how I- And  Sharmin: we're friends. Like, we, we've done direct actions together. Like, we've been arrested together. Like-  Cayden: Yeah. …  Sharmin: we're comrades, so it's just so fun to be able to talk about this- Well, I really-  Cayden: Yeah …  Yeah. Thanks again, Sharmin, Samir. Absolutely a pleasure to talk, and I'm, I'm sure we'll talk again soon.  Sharmin: Talk soon. [00:57:00] Thank you, guys.  Samir:

This week we're back after a very successful family reunion. We celebrated Summerween and ate great food and took the kids to Burger King! M&Ms is getting ride of synthetic dye so we'll be losing a couple of colors for a while! Plus the World Cup is making me feel patriotic! Happy 4th of July! Also is AI taking over the world? Not yet! Thanks for listening! M&M colors! https://www.foodbeast.com/news/mms-is-losing-two-of-its-most-iconic-colors/ Call or text me at 404-477-4160 Article from VoyageATL: https://voyageatl.com/interview/rising-stars-meet-jenna-kim-jones-of-atlanta?brid=YWdncwE8Nkj0d8u8HFwf7UJrNh5E Jenna's Latest Article on X: https://x.com/jennakimjones/status/2066674311860047993 My special She's So Brave is now available to stream on Amazon Prime! https://www.amazon.com/Jenna-Kim-Jones-Shes-Brave/dp/B0CGQHFF1R Need help with you brand? Maybe you need a new website? Head to wicky.co - Your brand's creative partner! Come cruise with me at Moon River at Sea: https://moonriveratsea.tbits.me/trk/jennakimjones Join my website today for exclusive content and the full podcast video: https://jennakimjones.com/product/membership/  

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Tiff and Nikki dive into all things tech + dentistry, including what practices can implement to make the day-to-day more efficient for staff and convenient for the patient — all while keeping that personal human touch. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiff (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I am back here today with you, with one of my favorite Dental A Team consultants. We have a few consultants, and they're all my favorite, but I'm here today with Miss Nikki Mack, who many of you have met over the course of the last few months that she has been with Dental A Team, and all of you know she has a vast amount of experience in the dental industry, and she's right here in town with myself and Britt and   Gosh Pam, everybody's here. Dana's down south, but that's okay. Nikki's here and she's here with me today. And Nikki, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you here today. We're gonna have so much fun together. You are a bundle of energy and a bundle of fun. And I'm just excited to be here. So how are you? How are you loving this like semi cloudy weather we've got and what's life in Nikki's world look like?   Nikki Mack (00:49) Gosh.   It's been fantastic. I'm super happy to be back. I had so much fun last time. ⁓ and actually I'm really excited about today's topic too. So that helps, obviously, but I can't wait to talk about it. ⁓ it's gorgeous. It's still over a hundred, but you know, we learned to live with what we can get. the gloomy skies, a little bit of humidity, maybe some sprinkles. Like that's I'm ready. That's a great way to kick off my weekend. So I'm here for it.   Tiff (01:00) Yeah. Yeah.   I know.   I agree.   I agree. This is like the one time, I don't know, in maybe my entire life of living in Arizona that I can't say, yeah, it's over a hundred, but it's a dry heat, 'cause it's over a hundred and humid. So I'm not really sure what to do with that. I'm like, it's cloudy, can I go outside? And I'm like, gosh, it's still really it's still a hundred and five. So I'm not sure w how to I'm not sure how to act.   Nikki Mack (01:31) Yeah.   Yeah.   Cloudy skies make me want a sweater, but then I walked outside and I was like, ⁓ no, that's not. That's not what's happening here. So we might have a real monsoon season this year. I can't wait.   Tiff (01:43) Yeah.   I know.   I know. We're supposed to. We're supposed to. So we will, listeners, we will keep you in the loop on the Arizona weather. I know everybody's always dying to know. I actually it's one of the most like most often asked questions that I get when I do travel. So I know you're all just dying to hear about it. We will keep you posted. ⁓ but I agree Yeah. Yeah. Always wanted to be a meteorologist, you know. Here we are. Here we are.   Nikki Mack (01:58) Yeah.   We're here for your weather updates and your dental ⁓ improvements. That's what we do.   Tiff (02:17) but I agree, today's topic is actually really fun and ⁓ it's it's tech techie and I think tech in dentistry can mean so many things. And so we'll narrow down kind of what we're chatting about today and and to to make it easy, I think tech has been so like virtually involved since COVID shutdowns and we've just really spun in dentistry on so many different platforms.   Be used. So tech in the dental industry no longer just means we have a mill, we have a 3D printing machine, we have scanners, and that is tech, but there's so much more that goes into it and that can be involved in that that term that I'm really excited to talk about it today. And Nikki, I'm excited. I know you love tech and the technical industry and AI and all that stuff, and   And you you love to geek out on it ⁓ in your personal life. And like I think we all use those tools. So I'm excited to talk about it today. And and something that I want to start this out with today is really the idea of how much we use technology in our everyday lives and how much ⁓ convenience the American citizen is after. We want efficiency.   Nikki Mack (03:16) Yeah.   Tiff (03:37) We want convenience. We do a lot. We jam as much into our days as we possibly can. And so being able to use technology severely impacts our worlds. And gosh, even this morning we do every Friday, we do like our f our Friday fun Friday. What's the most fun thing we did? And Diana, one of our consultants on our team, she's like, gosh, this week I ordered my groceries and they were delivered to my house. And she's like, that was life changing because she's a busy mom.   And I was like, that's so funny. And then today we're talking about this. I mean, gosh, technology. We're ordering, we're ordering our groceries, we're ordering Amazon. Like, how much stuff do you order on Amazon even when you want to support the other, the other companies and the other stores? But how much are we ordering on Amazon? Because it's easy, that ease of access. We're scheduling as many appointments online as we can. I just paid a bill to my healthcare office online and making sure that we can do all of these things from our phones.   in the most convenient ways as possible has become such an industry standard and a and a life standard for so many of us. I want to chat about that today within the dental industry. And Nikki, you said something before we got on, you're taking some notes, you're doing some things, and I I want to highlight that note because first we'll go through kind of like what is technology, Nikki, in your in your world and the practices you're working with, how do you see practices really using   Nikki Mack (04:47) Yeah.   Tiff (05:01) technology in that fashion, like for efficiencies, for conveniences, what are you seeing in the dental industry that people can implement within their practices?   Nikki Mack (05:11) So I think the key when we talk about it is we want to do things that make it easier for us and convenient for the patient, right? Like those should be kind of the two, I feel like key core pieces before we use anything. But   We also have to keep in mind that technology doesn't have to replace that personal touch. Like they're still coming to see us. I'm still gonna greet them at the front desk, right? We're gonna ask how their vacation was. They're a part of our practice. But people do want that convenience and you want to help the office. So I see it in ways that can help the team be more efficient. ⁓ with like virtual appointment assistance, right? Online appointments. my gosh. I mean, in 2026, I can book my oil change.   online right i don't even have to call the auto shop   for that. People want to be able to book it online. And then that's one less phone call that you have to take that you can be interacting with a patient, right? Face to face, engaging. So a lot of ⁓ online appointment scheduling, ⁓ bill portals, billing reminders, being able to send off statements, people can respond to the link in that text and pay for it. ⁓ all of those kind of pieces usually are the key. And then not quite our topic today, but   with diagnostics, right? There's a lot of technology available that can really help you get some valuable information to put in front of the patient too. But that leads us back to efficiency, right? And offering that convenience to patients. So I think it's really those touch points is where I see it the most.   Tiff (06:25) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah,   I agree. And I think you you touched on that like AI component for the back office for diagnostic tools. We have we talked about earlier, you know, the scanners. We have all of these digital ⁓ so we say tech, right? But really we're talking about like digital technology, right? Because tech can be so broad. So we have all of these digital resources that really do c ⁓ create conveniences for the patient.   And I think we undervalue even Nikki, what you just said, we ha we have them in the back office for diagnostic tools. I think we undervalue the convenience that that can create for our patients because the convenience of understanding, I'm not la I'm not logically sitting here thinking with my forefront brain, wow, being able to see this on the on the screen is so convenient and it's making my life so much easier. But me being   Nikki Mack (07:25) Mm-hmm. ⁓   Tiff (07:29) A person who can understand this, do it in an efficient and an effective way, move my day quickly, say yes to scheduling, say yes to being healthier because I can visually see it. That's convenient and it's making my experience better. And it's also to your point, Nikki, all of those conveniences, appointment ⁓ scheduling online, confirming our appointments online, paying our bills online, seeing the   Seeing the AI version of my mouth, seeing how my teeth have changed, all of those things are cutting down on the effort that the human is having to put out so that that bucket of time and energy and capacity that has been left because we were using it on something else. Now we filled this capacity bucket with extra time. I can now sit as a dental professional and spend more time connecting.   with the human across from me because I'm not spending the time on the phone calling to schedule the appointment or answering to schedule the appointment or doing all these pieces. So not only is it more convenient, effective, and efficient for the patient, but the team is getting some time back as well when they're used correctly. And I think that's huge. I think it makes a massive difference.   Nikki Mack (08:47) my gosh, it's   it's so massive. I think people outside of dental probably don't realize it, but all of us in it, we know it, right? We live it. The single most valuable thing in a practice, in my opinion, is time because it doesn't matter if you're a one provider, four op practice, or if you have six providers and twenty-five ops or three locations, right? In dental, like   Tiff (09:02) Yeah.   Yeah.   Nikki Mack (09:11) Honestly, every minute adds up. Every right, that's why we don't want popcorn assistants who have to keep getting ⁓ things that we need for the treatment. It's why we want to be able to get a hold of a patient for a balance or an appointment so we're not circling back. Like time is so important. And if we can find these opportunities that give us some of that task time back and allow us, to your point, to   Connect with the patient, right? That's face-to-face time. That's patient time. That's such a win. And if that can also be something that's convenient for the patients and give them time back in their life, because who has time to sit and wait on hold? Right. They understand you're busy, but they might have a job too. So if I can pop online, get my question answered by you, it's win-win, in my opinion. Like it just works.   Tiff (09:57) I agree.   I completely agree. And on the flip side of that, well, I think I have two, I have two thoughts. So one thought is I have so many team members that and I would be this team member. I think if I weren't consulting and I didn't get to see it implemented in so many offices and so many practices correctly and effectively and work, I would be the team member that's like, heck no, you are not scheduling on my schedule without me doing it. I want the control, right? That that would be me. I don't even let   Nikki Mack (10:20) Yeah.   Tiff (10:27) the team schedule on my schedule right here. Like I am a control freak when it comes to my schedule. So I would be that team member, but I do have the availability to see it in so many different practices all over the country, even outside the country. We've got Canadian practices that are doing the same stuff we're doing. And I do get to see it work really well. ⁓ so I know on one side the teams are like, Tiffanie, Nikki, stop.   Nikki Mack (10:55) Okay.   Tiff (10:55) Do not, right?   There there's so many team members that are like, do not. And I want to say that there is friction and friction can cost time and money, right? If the systems and this is Nikki's gonna talk about this a ton, but if the systems aren't right and we're not using the tool correctly, then there's friction. And what I mean by that, I have two personal stories that actually line up with this so beautifully.   My first story is, ⁓ my fiance, he's got he's got two kids, wonderful human, beautiful children. His son needs ortho. Right. And so mom's like, Okay, took him to the the orthodontist, he's gonna get brackets on. It was yesterday, so it was a week from a week from the day. She's like, You just have to you have to call, set up the payments on your half or whatever, or pay it. He's like, Great, I'm gonna pay it. This man, I j I got home yesterday from travel. I said, Hey, Bryce, you know, Bryson got his his   Brackets on, did you were you able to go to pay them? Because when I left last week, he tried calling them. The gal who answered the phone like, you know what? The girl who takes care of that, she's with a patient right now. She's gonna have to call you back maybe tomorrow. He's like, That's weird. Okay. He's a financial advisor. And so he's like, people are trying to give you money, take the money, right? So he's like, What is going on here? Like, what are these roadblocks? Yeah, like take the money. There should be some system. He's literally sat in our living room and said, I don't understand there should be some sort of system set up   Nikki Mack (12:14) Really? my goodness.   Tiff (12:24) But there's a if she's not free, someone else can take it. And I was like, Yes, system, you're you're right. You've been listening. So then I said, Okay, did they call you? He's No, and it's Friday. I tried calling them, they're closed. I was like, that's weird. So then fast forward, I'm gone for a couple days this week. I get home yesterday. I'm like, Did you ever pay them? He's like, I literally had to track them down to get them to take my money. And I thought,   Nikki Mack (12:31) Mm-hmm.   Tiff (12:49) That patient experience, right? That parent experience, patient experience at this orthodontist has been so not ruined, but impacted because the barrier to entry was so difficult, right? And I'm like, gosh, if they could have just sent a link, or taken the number over the phone is one thing, but if they could have just sent a link, he could have taken care of it, it would have been done, nobody would have thought twice about it, he wouldn't have been frustrated because he doesn't.   have none of us have time to your point to call the practice and hunt them down to pay our bill right so that's my first story my second story is a bill I paid right I just told Nikki about this I'm like I paid I had a small bill due with my primary care physician I got the text or I got the email yesterday I was like this is phenomenal I love this right yes I will pay my bill so I pay it great got the email back it's taken care of well   Nikki Mack (13:28) Okay.   Tiff (13:45) 10 minutes before we get on this podcast call right now, I get an email. Same email. You have the same amount of money due to the primary care physician. And I'm like, well, this is frustrating because the barrier, again, the barrier of entry, right? And so efficiency matters. And then being able to use the efficient efficiency tools really matters because when   We go in thinking this is phenomenal. I'm gonna take care of this. This is great. It's gonna be so easy. But then it becomes difficult. That difficulty out of when you when you come off of using something that should be convenient, it was less convenient for me to try to answer a call for you to try to collect over the phone than for me to have used a tool, thought it worked, and now I'm frustrated that it didn't work. Right. So now I'm emailing them and trying to track them down to ensure they got my payment.   Nikki Mack (14:22) Mm-hmm.   Tiff (14:38) So that I'm not double paying. So the barrier of entry there on a tool that is supposed to be convenient, it's supposed to help me, causes more frustration when it's not used correctly than not using it at all. Does that make sense, Nikki?   Nikki Mack (14:54) It does.   Yep. A hundred percent. And I think this is where, ⁓ hopefully I'm not jumping ahead. This is where I think systems come into play. Look, if you've listened to a podcast, you've heard us talk about systems, right? But this is why systems are so important. my teams have heard me say this a million times already. Any great system is a bad system if we don't use it.   Tiff (15:00) No, do it. Yeah.   Nikki Mack (15:15) Right. And even when we talk about these technology options, they're so fantastic and they can really help support our systems and save us time. But they're not just going to automatically replace them. You have to be really intentional with how are we using it. ⁓ I actually you made me think of ⁓ with the online scheduling and and the tools. So   I've helped lots of offices implement online scheduling. And guys, I remember I sat at the front desk and I absolutely same thing heard like, we're gonna use this. And I was like,   a good idea. I think that I'll just handle all of that scheduling because I control the schedule and I know what's best. And you do, not to take away from that. You get it. But it doesn't mean there's not support. So anytime with a practice where with that example we roll online scheduling out, guys, we don't have to let it schedule everything to start.   We can just do new patients. We have blocks in our schedule. We know where they can go. We allow them to schedule appropriate. We can do recare exams. We put blocks in our schedule. We use the parameters built into that technology to only allow it in certain places. And then guess what? If a patient has an appointment request that's outside of those parameters, then they'll call the office because we still exist for a reason. And then we're there to help them.   get into the right place. So it doesn't have to be all or nothing. We use our systems, we identify where there's a pain point, and how can we use the technology available to us to alleviate that so that everybody wins and has that opportunity. And if someone hates scheduling online, my mom does. She can't stand it. It's she's so adorable. We just learned emojis, you know, so you know what world I'm in. It's a fun time. But she's never going to schedule an appointment online. She's not going to log into my chart.   She's just not gonna do it. Guess what? She can call her office. Right. We have those options to meet all of our patients where they are and give the best experience and set ourselves up for that success. So   Tiff (17:13) And to that point, when your mom does call the office to schedule, that team has more time to spend with her creating that value in that relationship and hand holding to schedule the appointment because other people are scheduling online. They're not on the they're not on the phone or the phones union or or whatever while she's calling because they're able to use this conveniency tool in other areas. Yeah.   Nikki Mack (17:38) Yep.   Tiff (17:39) When you say system, I think, gosh, everyone, every doctor that comes to Dental A Team says, I need systems. And I want to break that down because a system could be anything, right? I have a system for the way I wake up in the morning. I get up and I do the cat litter and I do the dishes and I do the laundry and I do the this and I do the that. But the system that we're talking about is an SOP, you guys. I think every doctor knows what an SOP means. An SOP, a standard operating protocol.   So a system, are your systems working for you? Is it do you know what that means? Do you know what it means to utilize the tool? How do you what is it? Why are you using it? What is the end result? So what is it supposed to be creating for you? If you've got, you know, patients, patients want to be able to schedule online. They want to be able to pay their bills online. They want to be able to text you. They want to be able to use these tools.   In an effective manner. So why are we using it? What is the end result we're after? We're after being able to confirm our schedule without having to pick up that phone. Right? Great, let's work backwards from there. What are the steps that it what are the tools? What are the steps? What is the accountability? Okay, because that accountability space it solves the no one ever uses this, it sucks, everyone hates it, and every time that they try to use it, it's broken. Anything   Nikki Mack (18:50) huh.   Tiff (19:02) Everyone, always, every time, no one, those like definitive words mean I am speaking to you from a pace place of emotion and I don't have a lot of data to back it up. So when we have when we have the accountability built into it and the data to back it up, we can say, is this tool the right tool for us? So there are there are multiple scheduling platforms.   Nikki Mack (19:15) Yeah, nine times out of ten. Absolutely.   Tiff (19:29) The first one you choose might not be the right one. It might not work the way that you want it to, but knowing what that end result is supposed to be to be able to say it is or is not working and not just an emotional say, I'm saying with data, these appointments are not working. Let's try a new one. It's a it's a give and a take there. So when we say the system has to work.   You've got to know what that means. You've got to create a protocol around it and create the accountability measurements to be able to say that it is or isn't working. And then patients aren't feeling the frustration of the tools not working, or if they are, that's your data point, right? Where is where are the frustrations for the team and the patient coming up? And Nikki, that's where you said take inventory.   What's not working right now, what's causing frustration right now, and the phones ringing off the hook seem to be causing frustration. Great. How do we solve that? And then how do we measure it to make sure that it's working? And Nikki, when you say, or when I ask frustration, right? When I ask frustration, what are some of the frustrating key points that you see patients come back to offices with that tells you?   Nikki Mack (20:33) Yeah.   Tiff (20:43) You know, this system's not working. You're consulting a practice and they're like, Gosh, my patients do this, this, this, and this, and you're like, Your system is not working. We've got to tackle the system, meaning the SOP, not the person. Where do you see those frustrations the most frequently?   Nikki Mack (20:59) You know, it's funny because actually I'm gonna refer back to your ortho team example. I think honestly that's usually it. And here here's the thing. don't mishear me. I love having somebody that's responsible for certain things, right? Like we have our new patient care coordinators, we have our treatment coordinators, we have in ortho, right? There's usually the money girl, I was the money girl, right? Did that time. that's important because patients need to have someone that they can ⁓   Tiff (21:06) Yeah.   Yeah.   Nikki Mack (21:25) Refer back to, connect with, knows what's going on, right? However, it's that's usually the gap where if that person is busy or if that person is out, ⁓ we don't have a system in place to be able to support that gap. Now, let's say that your fiancé was calling and said,   I don't understand my portion. I have questions about what I owe. I want to review the insurance coverage. Guys, 100% that needs to go to your person that knows it, right? Because this is efficiency. This is consistency. Give them that answer. But if he's just, I just need to pay my balance. If we can't do that.   Within a few days, right? There's a gap in that system. And that's not to say this office isn't fantastic, right? Because things happen. We get busy. We it's summer, everybody wants their braces on, you know, someone went on on vacation, all those pieces. But that's what systems and SOPs are for, to fill those gaps when something comes up. So when we want to fix that, it's usually we have someone who does that and they're not available.   Tiff (22:12) Yeah.   Yeah.   Nikki Mack (22:32) That to me is I think the most requested. Like we have unscheduled treatment to call on because our person is busy, right? And can't follow up on everything. So it's usually the follow-up piece with the patients when we're talking front office.   Tiff (22:46) I totally agree. I totally agree. Mickey, this was fun. Thank you. I love talking tech and I love I love more than anything, and I think the listeners probably know this, ⁓ efficiencies. If I can create more efficiency in my life, I'm I'm a I'm a happy girl. ⁓ I can't I can't operate outside of efficiencies. My brain just doesn't do it. So it's where my control comes into play. ⁓ but I would say guys, like   Nikki Mack (22:49) Yeah.   Tiff (23:11) Patients want convenience. Patients want to be able to do everything from their phone. We have we have miniature computers that we carry around in our pocket all day long. It's 2026 at the time of recording this. We do not want to like get on the phone and actually talk to people majority of the time. I would say at least 90% of us can say, without a shadow of a doubt, 90% of the time I'd rather handle it on my phone.   than having to handle it over the phone. So I would take a look, you guys, your your like actionable pieces here, your action items are to really take a look and take inventory of like a spot audit. Where do you already have tools? Are they being used and are they working? And where could another tool be beneficial to your patient base and your team? It shouldn't   One should not weigh the other. It should be beneficial for both your patients and your team. It should not cause an inconvenience or a frustration to either space. Patients want easy, teams need systems, the trust is still there. And I would say take inventory, go look at the companies, vet your companies, have your team vet your companies, and decide what the next tool is. Not tools are, the next tool is.   Nikki Mack (24:14) Mm-hmm.   Tiff (24:24) that you're going to implement with success creating that system around it. Nikki, what are your final words? What do you have for them as a parting gift at the end of this podcast?   Nikki Mack (24:33) Parting   gift. I honestly I would say I think Tiff, you nailed it. And just remember, ⁓ like she said, trust still wins, right? Technology can do a lot, it can help us, it can make us more efficient, it can enhance the experience. But you guys are still deprived. The patients come back for you. It's that in-person experience. Don't let this take away from the care and the attention and comfort that you're giving to your patients because you guys are why they come back. You rock.   Let this help you just be even better.   Tiff (25:05) I agree and let them be able to see how much you rock. Because for example, to detour our wrap-up, the ortho practice, my first question when he said he was struggling to pay was wait, the dentist that we trust, he's the one that referred this practice, right? We didn't search them out on our own because now I only trust them because of the referral source, not because of the the ⁓ relationship that has been built. So to that point.   Nikki Mack (25:13) Ha ha ha.   Tiff (25:34) Build the relationships, allow your tools to be able to allow for a better relationship and that humanity to come back into play. I love it. Thank you, Nikki. Listeners, this is what we do. You heard Nikki talk about the practices that she's helped implement these tools. You heard her talk about her consulting. You guys, this is what we do. We focus in on your patient journey. We focus in on the relationships that you're building and we create system and tools side by side with you.   Nikki Mack (25:42) Yeah. Thanks for having me.   Tiff (26:00) That you can implement with your teams, your practices for complete success. And we always have that layer of accountability wrapped in. You guys don't even hear a podcast that doesn't come with actionable items. So just know we're here. We're here to help you solve the gaps. We're here to help you see how you can you guys run a more efficient, efficiently run practice, a happier practice, a   Whatever practice it is that you want, we're here for that. So please reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We're always here to spread some sunshine in your lives and give you a little bit more patient journey and five-star patient Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, drop us a five-star review below. Let us know what you're using. People do read those, they look for those tools as well. So let us know what you're using, what's working for you, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks everyone.   Nikki Mack (26:47) Thank  

Walking After Stroke: What Your PT Knows That Your Doctor Doesn’t A doctor walked in, ran a reflex test, and told the patient they would never walk again. That same day, a physical therapist from Dr. Kory Langwell’s team arrived. The patient was in tears. And then they walked 70 feet. “I hope you go back and tell that doctor,” Kory said, “that they missed that.” Dr. Kory Langwell is a Doctor of Physical Therapy with over 15 years of experience. He runs a mobile home therapy practice across Southern California, and now coaches stroke survivors worldwide through his virtual program at Unlimited Potential Physical Therapy. In episode 410 of the Recovery After Stroke podcast, Kory broke down the realities of walking after stroke what’s actually possible, where the system fails survivors, and what a good physical therapist knows that most doctors don’t. The Moment the System Stops For most stroke survivors in the United States, recovery starts with intensity. In the hospital, you might receive three hours of therapy a day. Then you go home. Within weeks, that drops to thirty minutes, once or twice a week. “Insurance doesn’t know when your brain stops recovering,” Kory says. “Therapy ending doesn’t mean progress ends.” The problem is that for many survivors, the message lands the other way around. When the funding stops, the belief follows: that recovery is over, that this is where they plateau, that there’s nothing left to do. That belief, more than the stroke itself, can stall everything that comes next. The Plateau Is Not a Full Stop One of the most damaging phrases in stroke recovery is “you’ve plateaued.” It implies that the brain has reached its ceiling, that whatever function you have now is what you’ll have forever. Kory pushes back hard on this. “I’ve seen progress years, decades, 10 to 20 years after a stroke. Arms, hands, legs, walking ability. People just get fed up and stop looking for resources.” What a plateau usually means is that the current approach has stopped working, not that progress itself is impossible. The clinical response isn’t to discharge the patient. It’s to audit what they’re doing and change something. Different exercises, different load, different feedback. Reassess in six weeks. See what moves. Walking After Stroke: Why More Isn’t Always Better Walking after stroke is where survivors often get their first taste of both independence and confusion. The instinct, and it’s a good one, is to walk more. Further, longer, more often. But Kory draws an important distinction between the acute stage and everything that comes after. In the early weeks post-stroke, more isn’t always better. If someone can walk five steps, pushing them to twenty-five on back-to-back days may overtax the neurological system rather than rebuild it. Fatigue compounds quickly. Quality collapses. And when quality collapses, the brain reinforces the wrong patterns. “I’d rather have somebody walk 50 feet really well than 150 feet terribly,” Kory says. Visual feedback changes this completely. When survivors watch themselves walk in a mirror, or on a phone recording, they often see something very different from what they feel. Bill Gasiamis described exactly this: convinced his running gait was dangerous, he watched the footage and found it was far better than he’d thought. The problem wasn’t the movement. It was the feedback. Once a survivor moves into the chronic stage months or years post-stroke, the calculus shifts. Walking remains one of the best exercises available. Kory also recommends walking backwards in a safe environment like a hallway or near a kitchen sink: it challenges balance, engages the brain differently, and creates new neurological input. Why Falls Happen – And What Actually Prevents Them Falls after stroke aren’t random. They follow a pattern. The clinical term is proprioception: the brain’s sense of where the body’s joints and limbs are in space. After a stroke, this system is often disrupted. Survivors may not feel their foot on the ground, or may not register that a leg isn’t bearing weight the way it needs to. Add a divided attention task carrying a plate, thinking about turning off the television, reaching for something, and the risk multiplies immediately. Bill described this directly: he’d made a sandwich, sat down, finished eating, and went to stand up. His attention was on getting the plate to the sink without dropping it. His left leg wasn’t registered as being on the floor. He fell before he’d taken a step. The countermeasure is simple: stop, feel the floor, confirm the leg is active before moving, then carry the plate. Step by step, not simultaneously. Foot Drop, AFOs, and Electrical Stimulation Foot drop, where the muscles that lift the front of the foot are weakened or uncoordinated, is one of the most common walking challenges after stroke. Many survivors are placed in an AFO (ankle foot orthosis) to manage it. Kory’s view on AFOs is measured: they’re a tool, not a sentence. Whether to wear one, when, and whether to eventually stop using one depends entirely on the individual. “Take it off every once in a while if you’re in a safe environment,” Kory advises. “That gives new input to the brain a chance for things to improve.” Electrical stimulation is another tool worth exploring. Kory recommends starting with an affordable unit available on Amazon for around $40 to test whether the technique produces results before investing in higher-end systems. You can find Kory’s recommended unit at linktr.ee/unlimitedpotentialpt. The “Life Athlete” Mindset Kory calls his stroke survivor clients “life athletes.” Not because they run marathons or lift heavy, but because athlete thinking produces athlete results. Athletes track. They audit their approach. They celebrate small gains. They adjust when progress slows. And they don’t let one bad assessment from one clinician define what they believe is possible. “If somebody told you you’d never walk again, you can take that feedback and use it as motivation,” Kory says. “Or you can let it get you down. That’s up to you.” What to Do With a Limiting Prognosis When a doctor says “you’ll never walk again,” it’s rarely cruelty; it’s usually outdated thinking. General practitioners have limited training in neurological rehabilitation. Some are still working from research that concluded recovery stops at six months or a year. That conclusion was drawn from patients who stopped therapy and stopped trying, not from the brain’s actual ceiling. “I just want to leave the door open,” Kory says. The research on neuroplasticity is clear: the brain continues to adapt when given the right challenge, the right environment, and enough time. A prognosis isn’t a prophecy. It’s a snapshot of what one clinician observed on one day. Walking after stroke real, functional, independent walking is possible far longer and far later than most doctors suggest. And sometimes, it happens the same day they said it never would. If this episode has helped you, Bill’s book The Unexpected Way That A Stroke Became The Best Thing That Happened shares the tools and mindset that made the difference across his own recovery. If the Recovery After Stroke podcast has been valuable to you, you can support it financially at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. She Was Told She’d Never Walk Again – Her PT Proved Them Wrong | Dr. Kory Langwell (Interview) Dr. Kory Langwell on the therapy gap, foot drop, and why the plateau after stroke is a label not a limit. Highlights: 00:00 Introduction – Walking After Stroke 07:24 Insurance and Therapy Limitations 11:22 Supporting Survivors and Caregivers 16:45 Community and Support in Recovery 26:57 The Impact of Electrical Stimulation in Rehabilitation 29:17 Walking: Quality Over Quantity in Recovery 30:25 Understanding the Stages of Recovery 36:39 Navigating the Challenges of Falling Post-Stroke 42:05 Setting Realistic Goals for Recovery 44:46 The Role of Medical Professionals in Rehabilitation Transcript: Introduction – Walking After Stroke Kory Langwell (00:00) So we had a client recently there. Doctor told them they were never gonna walk again. And literally, like they our therapist showed up, the patient was in tears, and then they walked 70 feet with our therapist. And it was all because it was a doctor that didn’t know them. They did like some reflex testing and said, you’re hyporeflexic, you’re never gonna walk again. And then literally that same day walked 70 feet. I was like, I hope you go back and tell them, BIll Gasiamis video 25, image (00:23) Before we get into today’s conversation, I want to extend a genuine thank you to everyone who supports this show. Whether you’ve joined as a YouTube member, contributed through Patreon, left a review, shared an episode, commented, or picked up a copy of my book, You Are the Reason This Podcast Keeps Going. Today’s guest is Dr. Corey Langwell. A doctor of physical therapy with over 15 years of clinical experience. Corey runs a mobile therapy practice across Southern California and now coaches stroke survivors worldwide through unlimited potential physical therapy, a virtual program built for people who can’t access the in-person care they need. In this conversation, we get into the gap that opens up the moment you leave hospital. While the word plateau might be the most dangerous word in stroke recovery, What physical therapists know about walking after stroke that most doctors do not, and what it actually takes to keep making progress, years or even decades post-stroke. If you’ve ever been told there’s a ceiling on your recovery, this episode is going to challenge that. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Corey. BIll Gasiamis (01:39) Kory Langwell, welcome to the podcast. Kory Langwell (01:42) Thanks for having me. BIll Gasiamis (01:43) Tell me a little bit about your background. Kory Langwell (01:47) Yeah, I’ve been a doctor of physical therapy for over 15 years and I’ve had my own mobile therapy practice for a little over five years. So helping people in their homes throughout Southern California with my staff of PTs, OTs, and speech therapists. And now we’re expanding to worldwide really with our virtual coaching program for people that have had strokes. So BIll Gasiamis (02:12) Worldwide. That’s awesome, right? So that’s where I found you on the TikTok app. And it’s a pretty decent channel to follow. Tell me just while we’re here and I remembered to ask, what is the TikTok handle? Kory Langwell (02:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s Dr. Kory Stroke Recovery PT and I can I can send you the link later on. But yeah, so I started two months ago and it’s been growing ever since. So BIll Gasiamis (02:38) Yeah, it’s really good because I think your information comes from the clinical background, something that I can’t do. I can put a lot of information out about my personal experience with stroke, what other people tell me about their experience, but your specific instructions around how to improve or how to do something differently or how to achieve an outcome with regards to whatever physical deficit people have after stroke. Is really helpful. So for people who are watching and listening, go to TikTok and probably the other social media channels, yeah, Kory? Kory Langwell (03:12) Yeah, yeah, I started a YouTube recently, unlimited potential physical therapy. And yeah, I’m also on Facebook, Unlimited Potential Rehab. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (03:22) Yeah. You’re one of those people. I often get asked where can I find somebody that’s going to help me with my stroke recovery? I can’t get there or whatever. And I’m I’m often the middleman. People think that I know everything about everyone, especially from Australia to the United States, right? But what’s weird is I do know a lot of people and I can connect people. So it’s great that we connected and I found you. And I think it’s really important that. Kory Langwell (03:39) Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (03:50) It’s your perspective and the way you think about recovery that’s different. And that’s why I reckon people A, should follow you and B, listen to this podcast episode. So don’t leave yet. F listen to the episode and then go and follow Kory on TikTok and all the socials. We’ll have all the links in the show notes. My first question is about the gap. Okay. So we’re often Kory Langwell (04:01) I appreciate that. BIll Gasiamis (04:17) Find ourselves as stroke survivors get sent home from hospital. Everyone does amazing things before we leave hospital. The care is amazing. They try and rehabilitate us as much as they can. They keep us alive. They send us home. But then the gap at home is we’re kind of left alone. Nobody to check in with us to make sure that things are kind of on track, that we’ve settled in. And it feels for a lot of people like recovery ends after therapy ends. But Can you give us a bit of a your your thoughts on that? Kory Langwell (04:54) Yeah, usually at least here in the States, people go from getting three hours of therapy a day in the hospital to literally dropping down to thirty minutes once or twice a week. So there is this huge gap where they just feel like they’re not getting enough and then that it really slows down their progress, or so they feel. and that’s where we’ve come in with our in-home care. But what I’ve seen is people just they need that accountability, whether it’s virtually or in person. And so that’s one thing that we really strive to do is just provide that that one-on-one support virtually. And also, you know, what I see with a lot of people is they think that, stroke recovery. Stops at you know, three months, six months, a year. We’ll probably talk about this more later on. But you just got to keep challenging yourself, doing new things. And I find a lot of times people get stuck on just finding random things on the internet, and then they just they don’t reach out or have the support that they need to move forward and make progress. So grant you just don’t want insurance to tell you when therapy ends or when progress ends. So that doesn’t mean your brain just immediately is yeah. Yeah, therapy’s done because insurance says it is and the brain just shuts off. I mean, I’ve seen progress years, decades, you know, 10 to 20 years after a stroke. I’ve seen progress with arms, hands, legs, general walking ability, you know, stuff like that. So it’s a lot of times they just people get fed up, they get frustrated, and then they stop doing or looking for resources. So BIll Gasiamis (06:26) Y the thing that you said is very interesting about insurance telling you when therapy ends. Now what they’re doing, what are they doing? Are they like I know what they’re doing fundamentally, right? They can’t forever pay somebody to have rehabilitation. And maybe they’re encouraged to pay them for as little as possible as well, because it costs money, right? So they they Kory Langwell (06:49) Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (06:53) come up with some kind of a conclusion or whatever, and then they say to people, Well, y that’s about it. You’re not going to really improve any more than that. And we need you to we we’re going to stop funding it. So how does that conversation go from what you understand? And can anyone intervene in that moment and continue the therapy? Is there a way to kind of argue your case to get more therapy? Insurance and Therapy Limitations Kory Langwell (07:24) Yeah, it’s a tough one. So having worked in hospitals in acute rehab units, having worked in outpatient clinics, and then now as my own mobile practice in people’s homes, I’ve seen the whole spectrum of therapy and the issues that come along along each step of the way. in the hospital, you know, it used to be therapy they would get six to eight weeks in the hospital a lot of times here in the States. And now it it used it dropped down to like three weeks for a lot of acute rehabs, and now they’re pushing it down to like 10 to 14 days. which is not a lot of time. And, you know, we used to be able to get people to near independence with a lot of their their skills, you know, the activities or ADLs, activities of daily living. But what I see now is a lot of times hospitals when I left the hospital world in November of 2021, at that point, it was like, let’s just get people to like minimum assistance, meaning they need about 25% or less, and let’s we gotta ship them out of here because it’s like it’s like a churn. It cause hospitals, to be honest. They’re big business. They they are, you know, it’s unfortunate. and they have some of the most highly trained therapists, but the therapists are kind of hamstrung from upper management, middle management, you know, being told probably from people above them that they can only do so much. in the states we have private equity buying out a lot of hospitals and stuff like that. So there are things are changing in the length of stay that clients get. Once somebody goes to home health, they usually only get like two to three weeks, once or twice a week, because the goal of home health is usually get them to outpatient, get them to a clinic. and when they go to a clinic, most of the time somebody will reach like a maintenance level where like they’re not really making a ton of progress and the therapists know they’re not gonna be getting reimbursed as well for that. So that gets really challenging and they have to write really good goals to help. you know, progress things or continue with therapy. So if your therapist is telling you in the outpatient clinic, that’s the one area where you can oftentimes have the best chance of extending therapy. They might be able to, you know, wiggle their way around writing new goals, higher level goals that you can work towards and progressing. And then other times they want to stop therapy for one to two months, three months and then reassess, you know, down the road, which is where a lot of times people seek us out for private therapies on the side. So It’s unfortunate, but yeah, the insurance game does have a their hand in it a lot of times, telling people when they can discharge or not. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (09:50) How hard is it for a therapist to know that the stroke survivor patient is not ready to go home, but you have to wind it up for them. Kory Langwell (09:59) Yeah. Whew, it’s really challenging. And usually, I mean, in out most outpatient clinics, you might get somebody two or three days a week if you’re lucky. Usually 30 minute sessions in in the clinic. Sometimes you have one-on-one places for an hour, which are great, or 45 minutes, but you’re it’s a volume game in the clinics because the reimbursements have shrunk in the outpatient world too. So they’re like, We need more volume here. And it’s unfortunate. It’s not on the therapist. It’s more on the, you know, just the the whole game that they have to do in order to survive, or else they would have to close up shop. But as far as like extending somebody, it it it can be a challenge. It’s it’s really you see it coming as a therapist, you know, and you’re in the outpatient insurance-based game. you’re like, ooh, you know, I I in about two to four weeks I can tell this is gonna be an issue with your insurance or whatnot. And most therapists, if you can get somebody to like 90% better. You know, that’s pretty darn good, especially after a stroke. there’s a lot of factors that go into that, a lot of variables. But yeah, so it’s it’s tough and getting somebody back to a hundred percent is can be challenging with the insurance game. BIll Gasiamis (11:07) Yeah, getting back to a hundred percent is Kory Langwell (11:12) It’s hard. It’s like the new one hundred percent or yeah, it’s another topic for yeah. BIll Gasiamis (11:13) my gosh. Yeah. The new hundred percent I pref yeah, that I love that. That’s a great statement actually, because a hundred percent, I mean Supporting Survivors and Caregivers BIll Gasiamis video 25, image (11:22) If this podcast has helped you in any way, here’s how you can help it reach more people. Share this episode with a survivor, a carer, or anyone who needs to hear that recovery doesn’t have an expiry date. Leave a review. It makes a massive difference. And if you’d like to support the show financially, you can do that through Patreon at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke or by becoming a YouTube member. Now it’s back to the show. BIll Gasiamis (11:50) I I have that challenge with a lot of stroke survivors who are early on in their recovery. They reach out and they say, you know, how long is this going to take for me to get better? And like, dude, like it might never get better. in that what they want is they want to go back to where they were before the stroke. And there’s n nobody’s going back there. Nobody at all. Kory Langwell (11:59) We don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (12:11) Not a single person. And if there’s damage in the brain and the damage is permanent, which damage is in some instances, then you cannot reverse that damage. You have to accept that damage and then adjust and recover and overcome the challenges that you’ve been left with. And it’s such a difficult thing. But the new 100%, I love that, Kory, because I kind of am there. And if people ask me how do you feel, which nobody nobody understands to ask how do I feel after my stroke, my left side is completely numb. You know, I get spasticity. It doesn’t look visibly like other people experience spasticity. So I got away with that part of it. I don’t look like I’ve had a stroke, but I have the fatigue, I have the balance issues when I get tired, I have all these challenges that are always there and they’ve been there since two thousand and fourteen. Like it’s not going away. Kory Langwell (13:07) Yeah. There’s There are those silent problems too that like you said, like you’re doing so well in general that a lot of people just can’t see the fatigue or the how tight your arm feels or different things, which is oftentimes really challenging. But if you put it even, you know, towards like an orthopedic injury where somebody has like a shoulder surgery or a knee surgery, typically they also have like that new one hundred percent where it’s you know, it’s never gonna it’s hard to have it feel a hundred percent like it was before. There are certain instances where somebody might make this miraculous recovery. It does happen. Maybe they’ve had a TIA, a mini stroke, or you know, just made this miraculous recovery. Those those people do exist and it does happen. But what I find in the stroke community that happens a lot is there’s this everyone wants to compare themselves to other people, or they’re they’re wanting to get the answers from things, but there is no crystal ball on these recoveries, you know, for for neuro issues. It’s more like let’s see how it progresses in one month, three months, six months, a year, and then just continue to track because it is a lifelong issue that you have. have to manage and and continue to, you know, have things come up over over time. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (14:14) Yeah, I agree with that. So this next question I thought about how I’m gonna ask it a lot. So I’m gonna ask it just the way my gut’s telling me to ask it, which is how much bullshit is that you’ve reached the plateau? Kory Langwell (14:31) yeah, that’s a that’s a fun one. I I love the I love the the BS part of that. yeah, it’s tough. I mean, you can see a lot of times what you’ll see is like there’s almost, you know, you think of plateau as like a flat line. And a lot of times what we do see is you’re there’s still room for progress. Like maybe somebody’s feeling like they’re 60% back to their normal self. Well, if we can get you to 65%, would you take that? Like most people would say. You know, it’s either sixty or sixty five percent. Like, yeah, let’s do that. But a lot of times what I see is Progress has just slowed down, they get upset, you know, the doctor’s like, whoop, this is as good as it’s gonna get. This is where you’re at. You’ve plateaued and you’ve entered a maintenance stage. And what I often see with that is it’s that’s the time to shift something up, mix something up, do something different. so what we like to do is take into account what kind of audit what somebody’s doing when their exercises, their daily routine and all that, and then shift things in some certain way and reassess in six weeks to see if we can progress that or make any other changes. So just like with any other training, like if somebody was a bodybuilder going for a competition or a professional athlete, we take that kind of same approach to our stroke recovery. We call athletes in general. Like they’re life athletes, you know. So we wanna help people feel as independent and as strong as they can. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (15:50) That’s a great mindset shift, right? So if you consider yourself somebody who’s injured, somebody who’s never gonna be the same, all that kind of stuff, well, it might be accurate, but it may not be helpful in the way you approach your recovery. But an athlete, that’s very cool. Now I know some people say what an athlete runs on a track and field you know, facility. An athlete does this, an athlete does that. Well, Maybe, maybe they don’t, you know, maybe you can be your own version of an athlete that allows you to think about that constant and never ending pursuit of getting better and improving. And whether you’re getting better and improving your physical side or your mental attitude or your emotional side or your or your nutrition, you know. Community and Support in Recovery Athletes have all these things that they always constantly forever focus on and their gains come from, you know, that really last part, which is almost unattainable, but it’s about going for it. It’s about going for the last one percent. And then reflecting back, like you said, maybe twelve months later and going, Look how far I’ve come, rather than look what I can’t do or look what I haven’t achieved yet. It’s like, look what I have been able to achieve. That’s Kory Langwell (17:03) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where and that’s where tracking comes into it. Are there, you know, your what what are your BIll Gasiamis (17:15) Such a different mindset. Kory Langwell (17:21) you know, your KPIs, your key performance indicators that you’re looking into as far as, hey, I was only lifting one pound with my arm and now I’m do lifting three pounds. Like that’s huge improvement in a, you know, what however long it’s been. So those whatever you’re tracking, it helps to you know, it could be your diet. Am I making good choices eighty percent of the time? Am I so making sure in like all of your life assets assets and that or facets of life, that’s what we try to do as well. And like you said, mindset, movement, muscle, all that. all those things together. we we you know, tie all those things into our our program. And I think everyone needs to do that as far as, you know, their strengthen those the mental muscle, the physical muscle, you know, they’re just as important. And having that support, whether it’s with a coach or whether it’s with family, friends, outsiders, you know, other stroke survivors, it’s really important. So BIll Gasiamis (18:14) Yeah, community is the I think biggest thing for me. because then with the right community, the one that I’ve created for myself, at least I get to talk about the things that bug me about what happened to me with people who one hundred percent understand it. And then that way, even if we’re different in our attitude in the way we go about things, at least we understand. Kory Langwell (18:35) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (18:45) And you’re totally being heard. Do know what mean? Like it takes one minute to listen to the story of a stroke survivor and to fully understand where they’re coming from because they’ve been through a a similar, a very similar experience to to myself. Kory Langwell (18:52) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. for sure. It’s so true. I mean, as a therapist, I I never really I mean, I knew there was a mental toll to it, but having worked with people for, you know, they come on and they’re with us for several years, you really see the mental aspects, like the ups and downs that occur with that. And it’s so huge to you know, important to to focus on that as well. So and not lose sight of it. So those silent symptoms of the stroke, you know, like we were talking about as far as the the emotional aspect or other things of that. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (19:26) Yeah. Yeah, one of the biggest complaints that I get from stroke survivors, not about their spouse, but about people about people who haven’t had a stroke, right? So often it’s the spouse that gets the raw end of the stick. But it’s that they just don’t understand me. And it’s so true, right? There’s no way that that person can understand you unless they’ve had a stroke, and we do not want that for them. That’s better that they don’t understand you and that you have to learn how to explain yourself in a way Kory Langwell (19:53) Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (20:04) that gets the message across even if they don’t get it. Like it’s okay because they’re never gonna get it. We don’t want them to really ever get it. What we wanna do is accept that they can’t understand something that they have never experienced, which we don’t want them to experience. Kory Langwell (20:20) Yeah, that’s so true. I mean, the it a lot of times it comes from a good place. They’re like, just get up and move. Why are you so tired? or you know, things of that nature. And it y you’re right. They just they don’t understand it. It’s it’s tough. There really should be more caregiver support and education. I’ve tr I’ve strived to do that on my page or on my different resources that I’ve included on my bio. But yeah, it’s it’s in sh it’s a challenge for people to to see the whole picture and the recoveries process that’s going on with that. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (20:51) Yeah. How common is foot drop? Kory Langwell (20:56) yeah. Strokes you you do see it a fair amount. it’s what I see a lot of times with that. You know, when in the hospital, a lot of times I don’t like to immediately put somebody in like an AFO. Everyone knows ankle foot orthosis and stuff like that. but it’s something that I like to see how the body reacts initially to to the the weaker ankle or whatnot, and how is somebody compensating? So you’ll see somebody, you know, try to march their leg up to clear their foot through the gate cycle, or they’ll kick their their leg out to the side so that they don’t drag their foot or their toe. so I like to see. See what’s going on for the first week or so before we start trying to, you know, put a bunch of equipment on somebody. But honestly, it it’s it’s pretty common. it just depends on the nature or severity of the stroke. Most muscle recovery starts proximally, meaning like at the hip and then works its way down, or in the shoulder and then works its way down to the hand. so the ankle and the hand are usually the last to recover. but yeah, so it’s obviously it’s very noticeable on somebody’s walk gate or whatnot if they have it, or you know, as you just see their AFO and you’re like, that guy’s got foot drop, most likely, or whatnot. So yeah, just trying to figure out where’s is there are there other weak links up the chain and the knee, the quad, you know, your your your glutes, your hip, what other areas could use some help to help you get that leg through and help you be more independent? So BIll Gasiamis (22:28) Mm. Kory Langwell (22:29) really treating the whole ankle or the whole walking pattern, not just the ankle or the foot. Cause we a lot of times we get laser focused into one area after a stroke like my hand or my foot, but we gotta look at the whole body. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (22:41) So there is a conversation that happens again in the community about whether I should be wearing AFO or I shouldn’t. And you often hear people saying, I got rid of my AFO. it was causing me to walk badly or incorrectly and it was decreasing the muscle activity in the correct way. Kory Langwell (22:51) Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (23:08) And then you hear the exact opposite. Well, you know, you should definitely have an AFO so you don’t trip over, you don’t do this, you don’t do that. Like, how do you determine that whole should I or should I not have an AFO? And do some people definitely need an AFO? And then also are there some people who can transition out of an AFO? Kory Langwell (23:20) Yeah. Yeah, it it really is with a lot of neurotype issues, it it really does depend. You’ll hear the answer, it depends a lot of times in the neuro world, neurological issue or you know, in the stroke world. But on a case by case basis, it’s really how does somebody look? How independent are they with and without it? How much strength do they have in their the muscles on your shin and on the outside of your leg that help lift your ankle up? is it something that maybe you just wear it when you’re outside? And then when you’re inside the house, you’re getting that input. with your shoes off. I I really liked the shoes off, you know, kind of full input on how your foot’s moving. You can really see it visually, get some feedback there on what’s going on. So it it and it can change over time. Maybe somebody ditches it after a while or maybe they w they know like, hey, I’m gonna be going on this longer walk. I’m gonna use my AFO so I don’t get as tired because it can be more taxing and energy draining to have to, you know, lift your leg up more, kick it out to the side or whatnot. So we’re really trying to figure out what’s the best quality over quantity for for most folks so that they’re not overdoing it, but they still are getting you know, the appropriate amount of feedback and and to help them live their life, be as independent as possible. So I’m not against or for it. It’s just wanna it depends on the person. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (24:45) Sounds like it’s a tool to be probably continuously assessed and determine its usability and then also for some people determine whether or not it’s short term, long term thing. And then also keep looking at it. What I seem to also see is people get told something, they do it, and then they do it for a long, long time and nobody kind of ever intervenes a year later to say, where are we at with that? Kory Langwell (24:51) Yeah. Yeah. It you know, it it’s it’s good to take it off every once in a while if you’re especially if you’re in safe environment and just reassess things, you know, on your own or with a therapist or whatnot. That again gives new input and sensory, you know, feedback to your brain of like, what’s going on here? And that that’s a chance for that neuroplasticity to occur, which you know, is a is a is a big buzzword in the in the neuro world. But yeah, so we’re just trying to create those environments and those chances for, you know, things to improve and and reassess. assess things as as you’re going along. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (25:49) Can you explain to me briefly if you can, like what happens with foot drop, why does it occur? and why don’t I hear about the opposite of foot drop, which is the foot changing and going in the other direction? The Impact of Electrical Stimulation in Rehabilitation Kory Langwell (26:06) Yeah. so your your muscles on your shin, you know, like those those are the ones that people get shin splints on from working out or whatnot, your anterior tibialis muscle, those are a prime mover of lifting your foot up. And oftentimes the feedback and the timing, the coordination down to those muscles is just weakened or impaired. So you’ll see a lot of issues with that. You also have muscles on the outside of your shin. They’re called everters. So they evert or turn the foot out. So the combination of those everters and then the dorsiflexors that lift the foot up, those muscles are the two prime movers of that motion. They’re oftentimes affected with different strokes. And then so a lot of times what we end up using is like things. like electrical stimulation. I have a really good video on my YouTube, about eight to ten minutes long on how to set that up. but you can You c I I see a lot of good impact with the with the E stem, whether somebody’s laying down or sitting, or then there’s other things like the bioness for the leg and the arm, but the one for the leg to help with the timing and coordination, all that, all those things that go into it. So it’s just not just weakness, it’s that timing, coordination, balance, all those things combined. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (27:19) Got it, got it. So you’ve seen some positive, helpful, supportive kind of outcomes from those electrical stimulators at like Bioness and other other types. Kory Langwell (27:33) Yeah, yeah. I’ve even like I’ve I have one that I use with clients that I I bought on Amazon for like forty bucks because the the range is anywhere from thirty to forty bucks up to like hundreds of dollars. Or, you know, the Bioness is you I think they can get that covered with insurance, at least a partial bit of it, but those are a lot more expensive. like thousands of dollars from to my knowledge. But I what I’ve seen is I don’t see a huge difference between some of those cheaper versions and then the larger ones. some of the bigger ones, like the Bioness, you do get a little more feedback or like that since like it will come on at a certain point of your gait cycle. So it’s like, lifts the toes at a certain point. helps you go through whereas versus you know a standard ESTEM unit, you’re usually it’s on for like 10 seconds, it’s off for 10 to 30 seconds depending on the settings. So but as an exercise tool in the general, in general, if somebody’s having issues and they have good sensation to that area. So you don’t want to put it on somebody that like can’t feel their leg or whatever. But it can be very beneficial at like getting that sensory and then the motor or muscle input back to that area. So not saying it’s going to get to that 100%. But it’s gonna help you. it oftentimes does help people, even, you know, if it’s ten to fifty percent better, great. You know, that’s a huge difference with somebody getting around. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (28:53) Okay. So worth people considering the possibility of getting a forty dollar version just to sort of try it out and see whether or not it might be supportive. And then if it is and they want to get something more expensive, then go f go from there. your homework after this conversation is going to be to send us the links to every single thing you mentioned. So we can put it in the show notes and everyone can have a look at it. Now, with walking, Kory Langwell (29:12) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Walking: Quality Over Quantity in Recovery BIll Gasiamis (29:23) I’m of the I’m I I’m I’m in the camp of do more in the from the perspective of if you’re only walking for a minute, try and get to two. If you’re walking for two, try and get to four and so on. And then if you can get to thirty minutes or an hour at some stage, doesn’t matter when, then that’s even better. but when we started that conversation about Kory Langwell (29:39) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (29:53) you joining me on the podcast and we share ideas about what we’re gonna talk about. You came back with me with regards to something about walking that people miss that could mean that walking further, longer, and more could actually be causing a problem. Tell me about about walking and the things that we can run into that make well, not things worse necessarily, but Not from an exercise perspective, but from a rehabilitation’s pers perspective. Understanding the Stages of Recovery Kory Langwell (30:20) Yeah. Yeah, I think it there’s a little differentiator in there. It’s like where what stage are you at in the recovery? So if somebody’s in that really acute stage, it’s you know, pretty fresh on the stroke, maybe it’s like somebody less than a month post stroke. We don’t want to get to the point where they’re just like you know, nearly exhausting themselves every single walk, you know, so there’s a time and a place for that. So you know, if somebody can only walk like five steps, we don’t want to go try to, you know, you’re gonna walk 25. And like you can do that every now and then, but don’t do it on like back to back days. Don’t do it on like back to back therapy sessions or whatever. So there’s a there’s a combination of like early on we want to make sure things are good quality. And then as we get moving forward, we want to progress in a fashion that’s comfortable and not over Taxing the neurological system, because a lot of times, as you know, fatigue plays a huge role in that. And how is that affecting you? Are you like you went for a super long walk, but now you’re down for the count for two days or you know, at least a day. So you know, walking a hundred feet can feel like a marathon early on. So it’s just making sure that you’re getting the right feedback, that accountability, support, where you’re it’s quality. in not just overdoing it. So I find that a lot where people want to do a ton of reps or like they’re doing an exercise, like they’re trying to lift their arm up, but they’re doing this the whole time, you know, and I’m like, you’re just you’re not lifting your arm, they’re just like tiring out their trap muscle as opposed to like some of the the delt or bicep or different areas. So like you’re just gonna get really bulky but traps up here, but you’re not really necessarily helping yourself versus if you did good quality and like keep that shoulder down. I’m just using that as an example. But for walking, you know, same thing. Like are you using a mirror for feedback? To see, like, I’m actually, I’m every step, I’m kind of falling off to the side. Why is that? I’d rather like have somebody walk 50 feet really well than like 150 feet terribly, you know. So it’s and that that again goes into more of the acute stage. Now, if somebody’s sub-acute, more of a chronic, it’s been 10, 15 years, go for it. Like, if you want, if you feel good about it, you’re not overtact taxing yourself, getting overtired or anything, you know, do what you can. Walking is one of the best exercises for you. I also like I I’m a big fan of walking backwards. So in a safe area like by the kitchen sink or a hallway or something, it just challenges your mind and it’s a really good balance exercise for somebody post stroke or with any neurological issue because it just told you you see somebody try it the first time, they’re like, What do you want me to do? Walk backwards. And then there’s tons of ways you can adjust the the intensity on that as well. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (33:01) So also I remember being in outpatient rehab and feeling like I actually wasn’t able to walk well. And then the therapist saying, Well, why don’t we just record it and have a look at how you’re walking? And it was also about running because I I wanted to run, but I didn’t want to run marathons. I just wanted to be able to run across the road if a car’s coming or something. And I said, Well, I’m a bit concerned about how that Kory Langwell (33:15) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (33:30) goes ’cause I don’t want to injure myself running, et cetera. And well he said, Well, why don’t we do a run, I’ll record you and I’ll then we’ll break it down and I’ll show you what you’re doing or what you’re not doing. And it turns out that my running style was fine. What wasn’t fine was the feedback that I was getting because it was completely different to the previous thirty seven years of my life. And I and because it felt different and my brain registered it differently, it It was scary. Like it was like, well, this doesn’t I’m gonna probably injure myself is how I I thought it. But when I saw the video, it was completely different. And sure, there was some instructions still about how to do it correctly, what I might be able to improve, especially with my left leg, but the but the overall picture was more positive than I t made it out to be. And that’s the challenging part. Sometimes we think we’re less capable than we are. Kory Langwell (34:06) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that’s why the visual feedback is so important, whether you record it with your cell phone or you know, just getting the real time feedback on with a mirror or something like that. It’s you know, you see that used in therapy a lot because you may not notice that you’re doing something and just having somebody tell you that isn’t gonna help as much as if you’re somebody’s telling you plus they’re showing you what you’re doing. Yeah, that that can be a huge, you know, help of like, you know, that I can feel that now. It’s good biofeedback. I can, you know, move on from there. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (35:01) Yeah. And so it sounds like there’s two parts to that conversation. Is sometimes we think we’re doing it better than we are, and sometimes we think we’re doing it worse than we are. So it’s really important to have somebody assess you or at least give you feedback and give you the opportunity to check your assumptions about yourself and then also to check via perhaps a recording to check, you know, how you are actually doing things. So you can see it from Kory Langwell (35:10) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (35:31) their perspective and then you can adjust as you’re going forward. Kory Langwell (35:35) Yeah, absolutely. BIll Gasiamis (35:37) So what about falling? That’s a huge issue after stroke. I fell quite a few times after surgery. The first time I fell, Kory, was about I don’t know, less than twenty-four hours after I woke up after brain surgery. And the nurse said to me, Have you been to the bathroom to movie bowels? And I was like, No, I haven’t been anywhere. And she said, Well, great, get up, I’ll let I’ll help you. get there and now she was a lot smaller than me and a lot thinner framed and she said just put your arm around me and I’ll help you get to the bathroom. Okay, cool. I did that and when I stepped out onto my left leg, from the left side of the bed, as soon as I put weight on it, without her having any idea, I completely fell straight to the ground, in the ward, screaming Kory Langwell (36:32) no. Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (36:36) I’ve got a fresh h scar and patch on my head from brain surgery literally twenty-four hours ago. so it became quite a concern after that because it was the first time I realized that my left side doesn’t work. And it was the first time I realized that th falling after a stroke with a cr a fresh craniotomy and all that kind of stuff is also very dangerous, right? So when I came home Navigating the Challenges of Falling Post-Stroke Kory Langwell (36:37) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (37:04) I was pretty independent and I felt really good about the fact that I was able to walk on my own. but when I got up from the couch one time and many other times when I’ve fallen, when I got up from the couch on time, I forgot to connect my new leg to my my standing up, my getting up from the couch. I had just eaten a sandwich. It was in a plate. I was the one that went and made the sandwich, sat down and started eating it. And then as soon as I finished it, I went to get up to take the plate to the sink. And my left leg wasn’t aware that it was on the ground. And I fell immediately. And I dropped the plate, I broke the plate, I smashed my ribs on the arm of the couch. I thankfully didn’t injure myself terribly, but it was a close call. And I always after that, I always made a point and still do in the morning when I wake up to get out of bed. Kory Langwell (37:41) Yeah. Wow. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (38:01) make sure my foot is on the ground before I stand up so that I don’t lose balance and fall. So that’s my that’s my story about falling, but also it’s very common in stroke survivors. I hear that a lot. Tell me about why falls happen after stroke. Kory Langwell (38:05) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first off it Kinda hurts my therapist heart to hear that what you know, the nurse and you will fall in there. That’s where I’m like, he needed a PT evaluation to see how strong his legs are, where his, you know, sensation is and all that. Usually when we get somebody up, we want to make sure they’re safe at the edge of the bed. And then maybe we’re transferring just to like a a bedside commode in the the first time. And then you’re you you check that box then. We start moving towards walking once we make sure it’s safe. But sometimes the nurses get a little gung ho with things and get a little excited. we try to stay in our lane and, you know, just do the That PTS needed. but as far as like, you know, making sure somebody’s safe, it’s creating the right environment for them that, you know, like I mentioned, making sure they’re strong enough with their legs to, you know, and the most people will know as they started physical therapy what level they’re at, how much help they need, all those things. So, and then not over challenging somebody where we’re doing like very advanced balance exercises or doing very, you know, doing three tasks at once or like you carrying that dish, you know, and that’s a more your brain is like thinking, we’re good and I’m just gonna carry this dish and I’m gonna go turn off the TV while I’m getting up or whatever. And your brain’s like, nope, no you’re not, and you just fall over. So it’s like creating, you know, those too many environmental stimuli probably and then just where it kind of I don’t tricked your brain into to not focusing on where your your leg is at. We call that the proprioception or just realizing where your joints are, your limbs are in space. And sometimes that can be very affected after strokes. So we just wanna, you know, see how that looks, see how you’re moving, and and you know, go from there. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (40:08) You probably describe that better than anybody, actually. Proprioception is my is a challenge that I have, but nobody ever connected that to what you just said, too many things happening at once. And it was exactly that. I had a plate, I just finished a meal, and my goal was to get the plate back to the sink safely without dropping it. And it was my my attention was Kory Langwell (40:33) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (40:36) diverted away from making sure my leg was in the right position for me to stand up and was the muscles were activated, which I had been doing every day before that, right? I’d been making sure. But right now I had a plate in my hand and it was get up without dropping the plate. Kory Langwell (40:37) Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. Pun pun intended, step by step, right? Just looking into like, okay, my feet are on the ground. I am able to push myself up to stand. Now we’re gonna take a step slowly, you know, go through that. So yeah, it’s it’s making sure everything looks appropriate and is, you know, safe for that specific client. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (41:12) In my case I think now reflecting back on it, it would have been better if I’d gotten up and then reached over to pick up the plate and then moved to towards the the kitchen sink. And I think I was at home alone that day. And again, I screamed because before I knew it all was on the ground. Kory Langwell (41:27) Yeah. It happens. Yeah. Yeah. Setting Realistic Goals for Recovery BIll Gasiamis (41:35) It’s a very interesting thing to reflect back on it. under these sort of conditions where you and I are talking about things that seem they’re very glossed over. They’re not often spoken about in detail and people miss the the point. And sometimes people think I can’t do something properly, therefore I’m not gonna do it at all. But with regards to walking, what’s the best thing to do? about a walk that you haven’t been able to get back to the normal sort of style and and feel uncomfortable about doing. Some people will go, well, I’m opting out, I’m not gonna do that anymore because I can’t do it properly. It’s too difficult or it’s uncomfortable. Kory Langwell (42:21) Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s making goals that are you know, you hear about those specific, measurable, attainable, realistic time frame, the smart goals. So making sure that applies here. So It you gotta be able to walk before you can run, like with anything in life. So and that’s just you know, symbolic quote or whatnot, but you just wanna be able to do stuff that you can be working towards, but it’s also not so far out there that it’s like really hard. And then I see a lot of times people move those goalposts on themselves too much where they’re like, I got here. Now it’s like I wanna, you know, it’s you got to celebrate those small wins and then go from there as like far as you know, moving forward. So we had a client recently there. Doctor told them they were never gonna walk again. And literally, like they our therapist showed up, the patient was in tears, and then they walked 70 feet with our therapist. And it was all because it was a doctor that didn’t know them. They did like some reflex testing and said, you’re hyporeflexic, you’re never gonna walk again. And then literally that same day walked 70 feet. I was like, I hope you go back and tell them, you know, that that you missed that. So it’s BIll Gasiamis (43:15) Mm. Kory Langwell (43:36) really just making sure that you’re creating these sustainable goals that You know, and not letting people like that doctor that may not know you, a family member, you know, get in your ear and and cause these things that are detrimental to your your progress and take it in the right way. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (43:55) You can’t actually answer this and I’m putting you on the spot, but I’m gonna ask it anyway. Like I assume that doctors, therapists, everybody is about rehabilitating, supporting, helping people and all that kind of stuff. I I not assume they definitely are, right? But what do you think is behind a questi a statement like you’re never going to X again? Like I hear that so, so much and I thought that by the time we get to twenty twenty six that that won’t be a thing that I hear about so often. Like, but I I don’t think it comes from being nasty or trying to give people setbacks or whatever. But do you have a sense of what that might be? Is it training? Is it a lack of training? Kory Langwell (44:30) Yeah. The Role of Medical Professionals in Rehabilitation I think yeah, you see a lot of like GPs, general practitioners, they don’t really have great training in like neurological rehab. So if it’s a PM and R doc, like a physical medicine and rehab doc, I find usually they’re a little more open-minded or or willing to s you know see the the progress or or whatnot over time. If you go into a doctor’s appointment, you show up in a wheelchair and it’s been, you know, six months, the doctor’s probably your general practitioner is probably gonna be like, well, this is what it is. It’s been six months. And I think some of that is from old research that came out that you can’t make progress after six months to a year, which was more because they just stopped therapy, they stopped doing things and you know, didn’t see progress because of that. So it’s, you know, yeah, if you don’t do anything and you just sit on your butt, all day you’re you’re not gonna see progress or you’re not gonna change. So but yeah as far as from a doctor’s standpoint it it can also be case by case with the doctors as far as their own experience and whatnot. And I don’t think necessarily they ever mean like harm or anything. Maybe they are trying to be realistic with clients as far as like this is what I’m seeing. I don’t think you know, the chances of this are slim, but they they it’s probably just a way of wording it better versus saying you’re never gonna do something again because there’s so many different things that are coming out, like research wise, treatment, you know, like things change drastically now. so it’s I I just like to to leave a at least leave the door open for people to see that improvement. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (46:16) And walking doesn’t have to be the way you walked before. It could be a different version. It looked differently, feel differently, but it can still be walking. also I think it’s from ignorance, right? And again, ignorance, I don’t throw that out as a way to attack somebody, but it’s like literally that person hasn’t been in the space where Kory might work. They haven’t been in a space where they have seen people overcome some difficult challenges. Kory Langwell (46:23) Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (46:41) So they just make a assumption based on old thinking or something they heard in the past or old research that just stuck. And they’re just telling you, your job, your responsibility is to find new research to overcome that challenge because that research, it’s so bad if there was some and if they disseminated it to all the population in the medical community, and that has been continued to be passed on. I mean, that is so crazy that it persists and now. I just want to encourage people, do not believe anyone that tells you, A, you’ve hit hit a plateau, B, that you’re never going to do something again. And even though that might be true, just don’t believe it because there might be a technology around the corner that happens to solve that problem for you. You just don’t know about it yet. And always work towards the solution rather than focusing on the problem is kind of how I see it. And that’s generally what you guys tend to do. You guys tend to help people focus on. Kory Langwell (47:27) Yeah. Yeah. BIll Gasiamis (47:41) How do we overcome a problem? What’s the solution to this? Kory Langwell (47:46) Yeah, I think using it as motivation is is huge. So like you can take anything somebody tells you, you can take it one of two ways. And if you let it get you down, that’s up to you. Or if you’re like, Okay, I take that feedback, I appreciate it, but I’m not gonna accept it and use it as motivation to to strive to do better and move better. Like that that’s up to you. and who somebody is in their own, you know, life. So I always tell people it’s like, Well, what do you want to work on? You know, if some people are like, I don’t wanna do this anymore, I don’t wanna exercise, it’s like that’s up to you. So And other people they’re like, I want to push as hard as I can, I want to do what I can do. And so it’s really, you know, up to the what that somebody wants to do with their life and their progress, their recovery. BIll Gasiamis (48:28) Kory, it’s been an awesome conversation. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast and saying yes when I reached out to have you on here and share your wisdom. Can you tell me where can people go and find th information about you? Kory Langwell (48:44) Yeah, so our our main website is unlimitedpotential.biz and you we have a health coaching page on there where people could message me on there if they want. I’ve had some people reach out. I’m pretty active in TikTok on on like DMs if people in my private messages of people reach out there as well. Dr. Kory, K-O-R-Y, stroke recovery PT. and then I’ll we’ll try to get you the handle there, the links on all that stuff. Those are probably the two best ways to reach me. I will say it’s really hard to give specific advice over a text or an email or whatnot. So I and there obviously I understand like there’s a lot of people that have financial issues or they they want the free advice or whatnot, but it’s just it’s really hard as a therapist to give a lot of that. I try my best and I can’t reach everyone doing that, but we really are able to to make a difference when we do work with people one on one. So yeah. BIll Gasiamis (49:36) Yeah. There might be programs that people can look into that you are offering either in house or somewhere else. That’s probably why I would encourage people to reach out to get an answer about your specific issue. Dr. Corey’s not going to do that. just like many people can’t answer a specific question about a problem that you may or may not have un unless they have information about your data or you know, they’re your physician or they have your scans and all that kind of stuff, that’s not gonna happen. But that’s okay. people can still follow you because your tips on TikTok are really cool. They’re on the mark and that’s where I love listening and learning from you. Kory Langwell (50:16) Thank you, I appreciate it. I’ll keep coming. BIll Gasiamis (50:19) Yeah, definitely keep them coming, man. it’s been a great thing, this social media thing because it brings information to people that otherwise wouldn’t be able to access it. Some people might be stuck with the doctor who said, You’re never gonna do this again. And that would be the most terrible place to be stuck and have nobody else to kind of throw a spanner in the works in that type of thinking and then suggest something more, more hopeful, more positive. Kory Langwell (50:34) Yeah. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s always good. I mean, I learn from stroke survivors all the time on what they’re going through. And it’s just, you know, it’s everyone working together around the world now. So I’m in I’m in California and we have, you know, like we’re talking you’re in Australia. I’ve talked to people all over the world now and it’s it’s just been great to to open those doors to a lot of people and you know, at least have conversations with them. So BIll Gasiamis (51:09) Doctor Kory, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Kory Langwell (51:11) Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me. BIll Gasiamis video 25, image (51:13) Well, that was Dr. Corey Langwell, Doctor of Physi

If you want to bring a smile to Jarrett’s face, ask him about his bees. He’s an “apiarist”—a beekeeper. Though our meetings in his backyard are not about bees, it’s not uncommon for “apiculture” lessons to be a stimulating part of our conversations. But even better than “bee talk” is the nature-fresh, sweet taste of the golden-colored honey produced by Jarrett’s hardworking bees. Mm, mm, good! In Psalm 119:103, the psalmist exclaims, “How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!” Closer examination of verses 97-104 reveals that the “sweeter than honey” comparison is just one of several phrases the writer uses to accent the supreme value of Scripture: “Your commands are always with me and make me wiser than my enemies. I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes. I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts” (vv. 98-100). The bottom line is that wholeheartedly embracing what God has revealed through the words of the Bible situates us to live well in this world. Similarly, when Jesus, the Living Word (see John 1:1-14), is experienced and valued—His followers, empowered by the Holy Spirit, are well-positioned to live in ways that honor God and serve His purposes.

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On this episode I discuss the signs of the syndrome when you feel yourself going backwards. And the solution? Just RUN IT BACK AGAIN Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

Ever feel like your office doesn't fit the standard benchmarks for growth? In this episode, Kiera and Dana riff on how to know whether going big or tightening the screws is the best way forward for your practice — including specific questions to ask yourself so you can get started on change today. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today's a lucky day. I get Dana on the podcast with me. Dana, she is Donuts with Dana. She's been my ride or die for so freaking long. I love this woman so much. And fun fact, I didn't quite prep her 100 % for this podcast and yet she still shows up for a podcast with me. So Dana, how you doing today?   DAT-Dana (00:20) Doing pretty good. Listen, any podcast with you is a good time. So if I get time with Kiera, I'm showing up.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (00:25) Well, I appreciate   it because selfishly I needed to throw a few podcasts in the morning before a coaching call day. And I was like, ⁓ doing them solo. I'd rather have a consultant. So I just looked across the calendars and was like, which consultants are free and like threw them on people's calendars. And then Dana was like, I didn't even know that this was a podcast. So, but Dana, I equally feel the same. Like if I can snag you for a podcast, like let's roll girl. Let's have a good time. Dana.   You're Dainty to a point, but you're also Dynamite Dana. And we just had a client who's looking to work with you. And I told them like, Dana, you don't take on new clients. Like it is a very rare season. Like you happen to have a few clients that just like you've grown them enough. They're too new level that they're not staying with us. They've been with you for freaking ever. And I was like, Dana has a very rare opening. And I remember this client was like, well, we want to meet Dana. And I was like,   hold please, I'm just gonna send you a bunch of podcasts and if you need more than that, you just let me know. So, and when I was looking through them, it was like, Dynamite Dana on the podcast. And I was like, I think that one just got to stick for me Dana. Like it's the best one by far because you're a dynamic, you're dynamite and you just crush it for teams. So excited for today because today's topic is scale or simplify. Like what should growth look like in your practice? And this one I just felt was gonna be a fun rift with you and me because we have practices that.   DAT-Dana (01:23) you   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (01:40) I think are on both sides of this coin and how do offices know? So I'm excited Dana to rift with the one and only dynamic dynamite, Dainty on the pod.   DAT-Dana (01:52) It's getting longer and longer, but I love it.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (01:56) But what's crazy is Dana like here's a fun fact about Dana that you guys might not know for those of you who've listened for a while great welcome if you haven't go back and listen to some of them Dana's been Don't is with Dana. I think still my favorite one, but ⁓ Dana has this wild memory you tell her one time like I can change alliterations on Dana multiple times which we've done with core values and Dana has the most current one always Dana I don't know how your memory does this cuz I'm like you'll remember that on   whatever May date we're doing this podcast on that on that date it was dynamic dynamite Dainey and you're like yeah Kiera that was the latest one and I'm like how like I have a good memory but you even skunk me like it's impressive has this always been the case for you like did you crush everybody on memory like that game memory   DAT-Dana (02:37) Yeah, it is. It's always been the   case. And it's weird. I was trying to explain it to Britt and Nikki one time. And it's like, my brain just automatically like does alliterations and associates things with like other pieces that then I can, I don't know. It's very strange, but I'll take it.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (02:51) I don't know. I love it.   So, every year for our company holiday party, if you guys don't do it, it's a good time. have, I hope Danny still love it. Like, but we, do fun. Kiera's games are just made up games guys. And I have a great time and it's always changing the rules. Tiffanie always loses. Even if I try to like slightly ethically cheat for her, like I give her 10 tickets on the beginning and I'm like, Tiff, if you can't freaking win with that much of a jump.   DAT-Dana (03:01) yeah.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (03:20) but it's always about team trivia and Dana whoops, she skunks every single year she wins it because she just has all the memory. So maybe Dana, that's why you and I both love the holiday party. Cause I just like, even tried to make it to where you won't win it. Not cause I don't want you to, but I'm like, my gosh, like you skunk them every time. So it's a fun time. We, but I'm never letting Shelbi do it again. She made me do, do you remember Jeopardy last year? I had like 200 tickets a person that I had to like peel off and raffle off.   DAT-Dana (03:32) We have... I know.   Yes.   Sift through, I know.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (03:50) That Shelbi is like, that one was worth 15 tickets. And so if you guys want ideas, we're gonna talk about how to simplify our scale. Like that's our topic. But if you want us to rift on holiday party ideas, Dana, that just might have to be a topic. So email in because the marketing team has to see that you want to know this for me to make podcasts anymore. So email Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and just say like, we want to hear about all your holiday party ideas. Dana and I might get back on a rift. So, but Dana, let's talk about.   scale or simplify, how do offices know? Like what are some of the defining pieces? Because I think this is something about Dental A Team I'm obsessed with is we don't have a set like model, like not every office has to have X, Y or Z, it's truly yours. like that also, I think for some offices, they just wanna be told. They wanna like, I want my mom to tell me what to do for college. Like mom, just tell me. And I think people are like, well, just tell me Dana, do I scale or do I simplify? Like how do people know? Like what's some, and again, this is a full blown, we had a few.   Excuse me, talking points, I'm not here to follow any of them. I'm just here to talk like real life, like how do we guide offices if they should simplify our scale? What's kind of some of the things you start with within office?   DAT-Dana (04:53) Yeah. So usually I'll honestly start with the owner and like, what do you truly love? Because if you don't love managing people, if you don't love doing the procedures that it takes to expand, if you don't love like   running the business and crunching the numbers and doing those pieces, if that doesn't inspire you, then let's talk about simplifying, right? Where if, if really and truly that's why you show up every day is for those pieces, then let's talk about scaling, right? And what growth looks like and you know,   what that looks like for you and it might be adding practices, might be expanding the space that you're in, it might be a variety of different things, but honestly and truly what do you love because I don't want to build something that at the end of the day just makes you dislike coming to the office more or exponentially harder.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (05:49) I agree with you, Dana. I think this is a spot where almost giving you as an owner, the green light to say it's okay to stay where you're at. ⁓ I have an office in Florida and every time we got on a call, everybody around them was telling them to expand. So they had six operatories. They're producing 3.5 million. Their overhead, kid you not is 35%. And people were like, right. Like it's just, ⁓ it was a great practice and they worked four days a week. It was a husband, wife duo.   And I remember we talked all the time and they're like, Kiera, everybody thinks that we should scale. Like we should get another practice. Like we've got this. And I was so annoyed because I'm like, everybody chirping in your ear doesn't realize what you want. What they wanted, their kids were a little, they're like, we want to be home with our kids. We have a very profitable practice. We're very happy with it. We have minimal debt on it and it's just fulfilling our life. And what we want to do is we want to have our summers. We want to go golfing with the boys. We want to.   get on a boat and go take, they take a month off and they go travel because they can't and they can still pay their team while they're gone. And I think for them, they actually hit this spot of growth. And what they were looking for is they didn't want to necessarily grow the practice. They practice like who would change that up? mean, they've got the, they dropped out of insurance. Like I'm talking, they have the sweetest of the suite. They work six to three. They're off every day at three o'clock. Like you want to make a dream life for people that to me was like their dream life. And so when I looked at it,   But what they did is they got stagnated and they just needed something to fulfill. So they actually then went into like church groups and community groups and she got into bodybuilding, which Dana and I can appreciate. Like she got very obsessive about like working out and putting in and spending her time in her physical health. And he spent his time in like Bible study and giving back in the community that way that I feel that if there's a spot, Dana, like you said,   know thyself and be free. And it might be that you want to scale, but you don't want to scale your practice. You just need to go find another avenue of fulfillment that can be in varying shades. That doesn't necessarily need to be the practice. So I don't know because I'm such a like, I love to grow, but I have to ask myself like, why am I growing? it for my own ego? And I'm like, no, I want to like help 500 dentists. Like we're at like a hundred, 200 dentists. Like for me, how do I help 500 dentists? And then how am going to help a thousand dentists? And how do we do that as a company? And that to me,   is the MO more than the dollars is like the big MO is big impact in dentistry. And so it's the number of dentists that we serve and we help. ⁓ That's what lights me up. But like Dana said, managing the team screw that we're bringing on a C-suite for a reason. Like I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to, like I need to build and to create. And that was, makes me happy. ⁓ But I think you do it because you want to do it, not because you feel like everybody else around you does it. But Dana, like, I don't know how to, we can say this on a podcast, but like, how do you really help a dentist?   see that that's okay. I don't know, because we had another dentist who came to our mastermind in person and she told me, said, Kiera, I'm not like them. Like I don't have big dreams. Like I'm perfectly content doing nonprofit dentistry and taking my team on nonprofit trips. And I was like, how did you miss the loud blaring message that I preach from ups on stage? Like   We don't care what you do. Like there's a dentist who works three days a week and he's so freaking happy. And I've got a dentist who's working like six days a week and he's so freaking happy. And she's so happy. Like ultimately it's not about production. It's not about days you're working. It's not about size of practice. It's about what makes you happy. But Dana, I feel like people don't see that. And they're like, no, I need to be bigger or I need to do this. Otherwise I'm failing. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?   DAT-Dana (09:24) Yeah, and I think it is having an honest conversation that sometimes like comparison is the thief of joy. And like you said, know thyself and be free. And so oftentimes, I will put together just like, a couple options, right? Okay, so you could do this, and this is what this would look like. So we could expand the practice, it could have this many ops in order to fill this many ops, we're gonna have to bring in an associate, right? And sometimes when you map out, you go down the road of, okay, now this is going to be hiring this many people. And this is going to be the process of   creating a new building and this is, they kind of start to see, right? And they're like, I always talk to them about, okay, think about these plans, let's walk them through together. And like, does that make you feel joyful, excited, giddy, inspired, motivated? Or does that feel like it's going to be more work, daunting, more stress, those types of pieces? And yes, sometimes even the growth that you want has a little bit of stress added, right? Or has a little bit more work added in the beginning. But you should be truly excited   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (10:12) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   DAT-Dana (10:23) And you should be ready to tackle it and feeling refreshed, not looking at it and kind of feeling like, my gosh, I'm already burnt out just even thinking about the plan.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (10:32) I would agree with you. And I think that there's like a, I think that's a good litmus test that you brought up Dana of like, how do I feel? Like, is that like a heavy weight and burden? Because like for me building a C-suite now in the company that actually freaking lights me up. Like I'm like, all right, let's like try to figure this out. I get excited to learn that piece of the business ⁓ building out and how can we do these different pieces? Like I get really excited, like building the client journeys. Those things still like excite me. But a few years ago when we talked about growing,   I was like hard no. It was a like put a stop on everything. If you ask me to build one more thing, I'm tapped. Like I just didn't have it in me. And so I also hope people realize that like just because you want something today or you don't want something today, that doesn't mean it's a forever process. Like it can evolve and it can morph with you. And timing is everything. Like Dana, there's some offices where I feel like they're like sleepers and they're just asleep and asleep and asleep. And then all of a sudden like, and I'm going to expand to 10 ops. And you're like,   All right, sweet. Like you and I both have a client in Nebraska and it was like sleepy client just going along status quo. And then all of a it's like, and I'm going to buy the building next door and I'm adding on to dentists. we're like, great, you're lit up for this. let's build it. So I think when people, don't know, maybe this can help people. My family was always like, where are going to move? Jason and I, this is a conversation we talked about on a regular basis. And someone said the other day, they were like, I'm going to move to the East coast. And I was like, you really want to like build your family there. And she said, Kiera, it's not forever.   Like I could just go live there for two years and I could move back to the West coast. And I think sometimes we believe like I do that where I live is my forever permanent, like non-negotiable. And if I'm going to scale or I'm going to simplify, that's my forever non-negotiable rather than like, this is the season and time I'm at. That office that I talked about, their kids are getting older. I know they're starting to think about different things and what they want their life to look like. And so I also want you to realize that if you choose to scale or you choose to simplify,   They're not irreversible decisions. Like if you scale it up, there's a doctor that just joined us and she's a really awesome example. I'm getting her on the podcast. I can't wait to bring her on. Dana doesn't even know about this client. She's new to the company. She's awesome. She freaking blew up a business. Like she launched it. It rocked. She expanded. She built it so big. And then COVID hit and she was in a space where oil and gas were her main clientele. And all of her patients had that. And she's like, I lost them all. She's like, so I had added 10 more ops to my practice.   I had to scale it back down to what it was before, make it go through. And I had this like huge lease on me. And I think about her that like, even if you expand it out and blow it out, she still was able to get herself back to profit margins, found a way around it. That for, I think people, maybe Dana, get nervous and it's like, this is my, I don't know, my like glory or my doom forever. But it's like, it's just decisions and it decides on if it lights you up or if takes you down. I don't know. I've said a lot of words. What do you think on that, Dana?   DAT-Dana (13:26) No, I agree with you. agree. And I think that, too, like you said, people have different seasons in their lives. And at different points, they want different things. And it's okay to want something now to build it and then to decide that that isn't where you want to sit forever. And then we pivot, we come up with other plans. And in the reverse, it's like, oftentimes, I feel like offices don't realize how much you can simplify but still grow. And so, you know, I think it's just going through.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (13:29) Thank   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Say that again, because I think people   might have missed that. Say that again, Dana.   DAT-Dana (13:57) Yeah, you can still simplify things in your practice and have massive growth.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (14:03) Yes. Bingo. I also hope people hear that because like that practice I was sharing in Florida and Dana, you've got some offices right now that we talked about. We had a case study where they were negative cash. They simplified and they have grown and they've expanded so much. think people often feel, I don't know, I'm going to be hated. I can tell. I'm like playing with my hair a lot right now. That means I'm nervous to say what I'm about to say. So if you're watching, thanks for, I'm sure the marketing team is going to love cropping this.   I think some people feel the ego pull to be larger when that's not really what they want to do. And so they expand or they build because it is really sexy to go to an event or to talk to your bros or your girls and say, this is my office and look how amazing it is. But I think that there's a silent killer that sits inside where they're under debt, they're exhausted, they're so tired and they don't want that versus my practice in Florida. On the outside, I remember looking at it I was like,   This doesn't strike me as their office, but they're like, here it's cheap. It's paid for it fits our clientele and the inside was gorgeous and they renovated it at times. It's a small, tiny office, but I'm like, it does not need to be the grandiose. Like they're not going to go up in a presentation and throw the exterior of their building on a screen. Like it's not, it's not something where you drive by and you're like, wow, I want that dental office. But what I do is I want the profitability. want the life. I want the interior. I want the people that come to that practice. I want the team of that practice.   that I think sometimes ego drives. And again, the exterior of this practice is not like, I think it's a beautiful practice. It's not one though that I'm gonna drive by and stop and be like, my gosh, like this. And so I think sometimes people get that temptation pull. I mean, I've had it. Dana, do you know how embarrassed I used to, I shouldn't tell you this, you were part of it. I used to be embarrassed to post about our team when we do like our Disneyland retreats and there was five of us. And I was like, because we look like.   We look like this piddly little consulting company and I was embarrassed about it. And I wanted to have that giant team picture. And I'll tell you having a freaking giant team picture. That's a lot of mouths, a lot of headache and a lot of stress, but like, feel the ego pole as a leader and a business owner. And it used to be like, loved my team and we were five. I loved us. Like Dana, do you remember the Disneyland retreat sitting in that room together? Like we had some killer fun times together and my life was exponentially easier.   DAT-Dana (16:18) Yeah.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (16:26) But like, how do you talk about the ego pull? Even though that's not necessarily, like, I don't want the stress, Dana. I don't want that. I want, I actually want the number of clients we serve today with that, intimate team. Like that's really, and I think we are getting closer to actually having that. think we've been doing a better job there, but like, how do you have that ego pull, not pull you because simplicity is not fun to refine. And we could have done probably a lot more on a lot less people.   ⁓ And now I'm getting people that text me like, my gosh, look at your team. Like I want to join Dental A Team. And I'm like, well, thank you. You don't know like the chaos behind the scenes. ⁓ How do you prevent? Because I think there was a piece of me that might have grown for ego and status too. And like I've never admitted that on the podcast, but I hope people recognize that like these are real conversations too.   DAT-Dana (17:15) Yeah, I think it's just an open and honest conversation about why and about where they are and about what their options are I have a doctor right now who like really really   keeps reiterating how much he wants multiple practices. And we've had to have just kind of a reality conversation of, hey, I will help you build whatever it is that you really truly want. Also though, we just had a conversation about you wanting to start a family, right? And so I always say to him, right, the right decision comes at the right time. And if it's not the right time, maybe it's not the right decision. And let's just take a look at what it would look like to actually be able to get you out of this practice a little bit more to then start to build your family, to then   maybe be able to have practice number two and practice number three that you don't have to be dependent to be in practice number one anymore. And so I do think it's just an open and honest conversation. And sometimes as a coach or as a consultant, these conversations can be uncomfortable.   But let's take a look at where you are. Let's take a look at why you want to do this thing. Obviously, we're going to look at the numbers to make sure that it makes sense and to make sure that you can do it as as minimal stress as possible. But ultimately, why do you want this? Why do you want this thing? Right? What is driving you to do it? What do you hope that it creates? And if all of those pieces really align with what you want, great. And that's awesome. And if they don't, let's figure out a different way.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (18:37) Yeah. And I hope everybody has heard throughout this entire episode, Dana has been saying that there's another option. There's a different way that we could figure out something. And I think that that's the benefit of having a coach go through this with you on the simplifier scale, because I know as a business owner, really it's a like, it feels like it's a straight up line. Like you start here and then you grow your team and you grow your profits and you grow your production. You hope you grow your profits. but like that's kind of how it feels like in business linear. But I think with coaching,   Dana, I've seen hundreds of offices and it's a like, well, great. You can have a family today and we can build it. Like you said, we could build practices that don't even rely on you. You can have associates. I've had doctors who have associates that go and open. They just get part of the ownership of it, but they have to do nothing of it. They like help fund it and that's all their requirement is. And the doctor's super happy. They're super happy. And I think what I've learned too, Dana, is for people to realize, like, I think, like I said, I think it's a straight linear is how in my mind it feels.   but I'd like you to almost see it as a spiderweb or there are so many different, or maybe a better analogy is like Venice. Let's do Venice. That feels a little prettier. There are so many winding sideways and different routes. Like it's not just the canal you need to follow. And I think having a consultant, having a coach, having people that are in a community, talking of different ways, I genuinely know and believe that there are probably 200 different ways to get to the ultimate goal you want that doesn't maybe look the way you're painting it in your head today. And I think Dana, you could attest to that as well.   DAT-Dana (20:04) Yeah, absolutely.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (20:06) So Dana, if there's a doctor out there that's like, do I simplify, I scale? What would you recommend like in quick like two or three bullet points that they do today to make that decision cleaner for them?   DAT-Dana (20:16) Yeah, I think first and foremost, really think about what you want for your life, not just your practice. Think about...   how much time you want to be at the office, what are the things that you want to do, ⁓ just kind of where you are in your space of life. And I think too, honestly, second thing on that list would be like reach out for help, talk to people who've done it, reach out to a coach. If it's not a coach, find a mentor, find somebody in your area that has expanded or has but in a second practice. What are the lessons that they would tell you? What are the things that they would tell you to look out for? ⁓   and also too, like what are other options? And so I feel like use your network or look for a coach.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (20:59) Yeah, and that's why she's called Dynamic Dynamite Dana because with that, that's a perfect wrap. And I hope all of you take her advice. Reach out, we'd love to chat with you. Like, I'll give you free advice. We'll talk to you. Our team's here. Be a part of our community. And Dana, thank you for being on the podcast. I appreciate you in my life. I appreciate you on the podcast. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Kiera and Trish are on the podcast together (yay!) to dive into the art of a Dental A-Team visit to your office (double yay!). They go into how an eagle-eyed consultant was able to take a specific office that couldn't quite reach its goals and tip them into success. They also touch on relationship dynamics, the power of "mom eyes," being a cheerleader and a coach, and a ton more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I am so excited for today's podcast. I have the one and only Trish. She's known as TADA in our company. She's all the confetti, the glitter, the sparkles, the spice, and Trish honestly just reminds me how great life is. So Trish, welcome to the podcast today. How are you?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (00:17) I'm doing great, thank you Kiera. I always love getting this time in with you.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (00:21) ⁓ likewise, I, Trish, you are just my little like light on the Hill. just, whenever I need to remind myself how good life is, I just need a little Trishism in my life. So Trish, thank you for being that. And Trish, you just got back off the road. You were in offices and that was what we're going to podcast today of like, you have had some pretty freaking outstanding results after being with offices, being in person with them. And so we kind of wanted to office autopsy that, but like Trish.   Just walk us through like what is an office visit like and how does that magic happen? So kind of walk us through because you just Literally flew in I think last night and here we are. was like, hey, let's do a quick early morning podcast with you But yeah, let's let's talk about some of that magic Trish What what happens in an in-office visit and how does that magic happen?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (00:57) Yeah, that's good.   You know, it's like we do, we build strong relationships, you know, via the Google meetings and video meetings and such, but something truly does happen when you get to touch somebody, hug somebody, and then really just like look at them knee to knee, eye to eye. And I was, when I meet with teams, like it's typically, we kind of know each other already. You know, we've been working together a couple months, sometimes even up to like four or five, six months already. But when we get there and we see each other,   And we get to have a lot of fun together as a collaborative team, because the Dental A Team style is like, we are fun. That we definitely are. And we try to make the lives of people easier. And this collaboration that takes place, also is kind of like it's cousins with a trust that also forms at the same time. So it's like we collaborate, yeah, that's great. But then the relationship, it steps it up a notch and a trust starts to come.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (01:39) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (02:00) And when you can see that happen, can all, well, you feel it and then you know it's there. And then the magic really starts to like, it speeds up the momentum. It like you hit the, you hit the pedal to the metal and like, it's go. And I've seen it more than once. And so it is truly the onsite visits that, that bring this kind of full circle and put the big red bow on what we're trying to accomplish for ourselves as consultants and for the teams.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (02:30) Yeah, I love that you say that because you're right. Like we do virtual and in-person consulting. We also have an in-person mastermind, which is so fun, but it's that I think it's the collaboration. It's the connection. It's the conversations that are had that you wouldn't normally have. ⁓ it's having, I almost got like the hallway whispers, teams open up a lot to you when we're in person. They, we find out things. And also when we go in person, you're able to see things. I remember, I think like one of the highlights of my career.   was walking into a practice that I had been consulting for almost a year. We were growing them and I walked in and I did like a, it was a head turn. Everybody says I have some good mom eyes without being a mom. And I was like, you guys have paper charts? I didn't know that this was a thing. And how has this never come up on a single call because paper charts should not be happening. And the dentist was like, but Kiera, I'm just so comfortable with them. And I said, well, great, we're gonna get really uncomfortable and it's time to change. I just think it's a...   Tricia Lee Ackerman (03:23) Yes   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (03:27) things that offices don't even know that they should be bringing up to you of issues on virtual calls. We can't see the practice. can't see how like there's a practice. You and I both know them very well. The thing we did for them was we put in a different flow and that's all we did. And that increased our case acceptance, it increased team morale, but it was just something simple like that. So Krish, you have a practice though. You got an office, it's a unique office. ⁓ And I think what's magical is,   after the visit, it's crazy. People can always tell, I had somebody actually chart my visits and they were like, Kiera, without fail, every time you come in, we get a boost in production, a boost in revenue. And I'm like, well, yeah, cause the team's happier. You guys are all aligned. You're rowing in the same direction. But the goal is that that can also sustain. So I hope that it's a, and what I have seen is it's a boost and it's like, there's a spike, but then it's also the baseline goes up and it stays up.   Typically speaking, because people are like, well, if you're not here all the time, how are we supposed to get these boosts? And it's like, no, it is a boost, it's a spike, but then is the baseline hires and we live in that, that becomes our new norm. Then we come back in and we spike again and the baseline norms up again. So Trish, let's talk about, you got a couple office autopsies out there. What did you do for some practices and what were the results afterwards?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (04:42) Well, I have, I do have a client and there's two practices. We joined them together for the onsite visit and they were, because there's the two practices, they are real, they're very great with being collaborative, but we were all together. So everything was implemented at the same exact time. you know, Kiera, what are the other things I want to throw in about our approach is when we do implement and when we do go onsite, it isn't like the Dental A Team way.   You know, doesn't have to be this way. You know, we asked the teams, well, here is a way that we could do something a little bit easier. How do you think we could do this? So there are really big part of, and these teams that we work with, I mean, they're like, geniuses. They really are. We actually learn so much from them. But this particular team that really kind of sticks out to me, they were really struggling hitting their goals. They kind of just didn't know how to do it.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (05:26) Okay.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (05:36) But we set in metrics that they could, we broke them really, we broke them down almost like to the hour. So they didn't have to look at a big thing. And yes, that we can do virtually. However, being together and me being able to watch them collaborate and give them those like, almost like the standing ovation, like, wow, did you guys see what you just designed? And Kiera, when I left that practice, they have hit their goals the last two months now. We put in some, which,   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (06:03) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (06:04) is so neat because they have such a skip in their step. But this, in February, they were $600 away from their collection goal. It was the last day of the month. They ended up going over by $4,000 because they are competitive with each other now in a super fun way. And they ended up getting a patient that was in for a consult to schedule and pay in advance because they wanted that goal. And   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (06:07) Ha ha ha!   dang.   That's incredible.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (06:32) And it's those things that they would not have done before. again, you know, it's almost like it's an invisible magic that does take place because they now know that they have somebody that's not there to change them, that's there to help them. And they want to make us proud. They want to make themselves proud. And it just kind of like the progress that they want to make steps up quite a big level.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (06:35) Mm-hmm.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (07:02) It just does. It just does.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (07:02) Yeah,   it does. And George, what I love, and I think you highlighted it so well, you're exactly right. I think all of our team, not I think all of our team members, all of our consultants have been team members before. And that was something as a team member and also as a business owner, I wanted to make sure when Dental A Team is consulting, we don't go in and we don't say, have to follow this script. Because people push so hard on that. They're like, listen, I'm not your robot. Like I don't want to do that versus   here's some tools and here's some resources. Like my job is to be your little fairy godmother, whatever I can do to help you. But at the end of the day, we're looking for outcomes and results. We're not looking for robots. And so if you guys are doing a great job and you're hitting the results, fantastic. And I think Trish, what you said is I think Denali team does a really great job of bringing teams together, helping them put together tangible, actionable plans that are like, this is what we're going to do in here is how we're going to set the goals, but we get the teams to do it. And you and I have another office that we worked with and I thought it was   Tricia Lee Ackerman (07:57) Yes.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (08:00) fascinating because people tell us all the time like, well, this associate won't produce or this won't happen. We have an office that hit the highest production that they have ever hit in the history of this dental practice shortly after you and I visited. And I think you and I both sat back and were like, is that causation or coincidence? Like, I think that there's a, they kind of come together and ⁓ it definitely was not a coincidence. It was very intentional. Trish, we put it together. We got the whole team rallied.   but we were focusing on what the doctors wanted. And as a by-product, we, I don't know, I feel like we're little magicians as consultants. You focus on what the doctors want, but as a by-product, we weave these threads through like, well, why don't we just try tracking this? Not on their radar, not what they're thinking. And then all of a sudden they start hitting higher goals. They start hitting these things and like, wow. We're like, yeah, it's crazy how when you just track it a little bit, you hit these things. They were concerned about their new patients and they, do you remember like after we left,   highest new patient numbers and highest production numbers. And what I think you and I love is when a practice is able to do that and they rally together, you and I can then come back around and be like, we've done it one time. What did we do? What are the things? Let's make that a constant. So this isn't just a one time like flash in the pan because Trish and Kiera showed up or Dental A Team did. It is truly a, this is going to be a sustainable model. So what are your thoughts on that? Because I think some people are like, well, just because you guys show up, then my team does it.   But for us, we're big on like, we don't want just flash in the pans, we want long-term sustainability. And I will say these practices are continuing to hit higher goals than what their baseline was before as well.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (09:34) Our delivery, you know, it's kind of like, you know, we can't hear, I'm always using analogies. My brain has to take with an analogy. And it's like, you know, people just receive the messages differently from whoever it is delivering it to them. Meaning like, my husband will respond totally different from his business coach than he ever would from me.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (09:39) I love them. This is why you're to dot Trish.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (10:00) And I could be saying the same exact thing. There's a, there's, and that's just a relationship dynamic. And so we are just, to these teams and to the doctors, we're, we're different. We're, we're just coming in a different approach with a different perspective, even though some of the messages they may have already been hearing or even sharing with their teams, but they get to hear it just a little bit differently. And, and I think once, and well, I should actually change that, not differently. They hear it more.   Like it resonates differently. And then they go into action. But when we show them, you you guys have already done this, because they forget what they've already done. They're so busy. Then you go into the next day of dentistry, then the next day of dentistry. But when we're like, look at, let's go back and look at this piece. You actually did it. So let's help you do it again.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (10:52) Mm-hmm.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (10:52) And then   they just kind of, go arm in arm. kind of code, we code diagnose with them, just like we want our doctors to code diagnose with their patients. We code diagnose with our teams and we're like, let's do this together. And then, I mean, they're the ones that are really like talk about magicians. They really truly are. mean, they're the ones, they do it. do it and it's so rewarding. the best part of this. You this job is already rewarding enough to be able to share.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (11:10) I do.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (11:17) I always love to tell people, I'm no genius, all my material is stolen. I've just had this, I've been so blessed to work with incredible people and learn incredible things that I get to share it with teams. And then these teams, go and they go do it. And it's so fun to sit back and go look at what they did.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (11:32) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Yes, I agree. And I think if, if you watch the video, I love Trish, you actually like had a little shimmy, like we go with the office. And what it is, is it's Trish walking down the office with these teams. It's partnering with these teams. It's being the cheerleader and the coach. think you need both. think a coach tells you your blind spots. A coach doesn't always tell you what you want to hear. Their job is to be looking down the line. And that's what I obsess about. Like we've, we've been there, we've done it. We've done it multiple times. mean, Trish, shoot you.   You've managed hundreds of team members. Like, like you said, it's all stolen. It's all on repeat. It's stuff, it's helping your team have another voice that they trust that they listen to. That's not you. Doctors have told me many times, Kiera, I pay you a lot of money to come in and tell my team exactly what I've told them, but they respect you. They listen to you. They want to know from you. And that is the greatest gift I think we can give our doctors too, is you don't know, have to be the only voice in the room saying this. You've got backup, you've got people and we work with the doctors. it's.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (12:21) Yes.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (12:34) We game plan with them before we come into office. We game plan with the office managers. But what I love Trish is in these two different practices that we're talking about, and we even have a third, ⁓ like our Rolodex, if you look and listen. So the first practice, you set goals with them. You had it achievable with them. The second practice, we went through like an entire new patient experience. have them doing office tours. We were working on new patients and we just said, hey, by the way, here's two areas. If doctors start tracking their production, this is going to go up. And all of the doctors,   kid you not every doctor went right up but as you listen to it and then the office you just came from it was like how do we help this associate doctor like there's just different dynamics of associate doctor staying leaving what do we pivot how do we fix it all three practices and the reason i want to highlight this is because Dental A Team does not have a one tool fits all approach it is very dynamic of what do these teams need what is going to get these offices motivated and Trish what i love is i still remember it was ⁓ one of the masterminds   You came in, you were in a cute little dress and like you were just so just like high on life. And you said, Kiera, I love my job and I love my job. And we are so lucky because we get to change people's lives. And it's so fun for us to be able to do that. And I've thought about that so much because well, yes, we're hitting goals of dentistry. I think we're changing humans at the same time of helping them see that, if we set a goal and we work as a team, we can do things we never thought we'd be able to do. And I think that's magnificent, but Trisha, anything else you have of like,   How did you actually get a practice to hit their goals? Two times in a row when they were not hitting, like they've gone, they've got a history of never hitting and now they're hitting it consistently. And they were so close and so committed to the goal. Like how did you, how did you turn a team into that overnight?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (14:14) The biggest, okay, I truly do think that the biggest part of that success is getting their buy-in. However, when I ask teams for a buy-in, it's a very, very deliberate and individual buy-in. So it's not just like, as a group, are we all bought in? Are we all gonna do this? I do go through each and every team member and ask, are you bought in? Do you think you could do this with us? Because when we say yes,   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (14:43) Trish, do do that in a public setting or a one-on-one setting? Perfect. Which I don't, I do the same. And I, the reason I highlight that is because you're not getting blanket to group buy-in. You're getting individual buy-in in front of team members, which is critical and pivotal. And I wanted people to hear the difference. Cause also if you're doing it behind closed doors, the whole team doesn't see to hold accountable. So the fact that it's in a public setting, not just like head nods, yes, but each individual person. And what you said is, do you think you can do this? Do you think you can hit the goals with us?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (14:45) I do it in public setting. I do it in public.   Okay.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (15:13) They are also then self committing. It's like a patient who tells you, yes, I'm gonna get the new patient forms back to you. They are already bought in and committed to doing this and it's brilliant. So continue on. I just wanted to highlight and differentiate that.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (15:26) No, thank you, because that was something that I learned a long time ago. And that individual buy-in, there is something that happens when you own it in front of your peers. There's an ownership there. And you don't want to be part of a team and be there and say, yes, I think I can do this, I'm bought in, and then not do it. It's just kind of natural. We don't want to be that person. ⁓   And you know, there have been, I have run into occasions where there, a team will be a little reluctant and I appreciate that because they'll, some teams might go, well, I'm, I'm bought in on almost everything, but I'm like, that's perfect. Let's stop right there and let's get, what do we need to do to help you get past this? But, and so we stop and, that is something like, we don't, we don't negotiate like you have to be bought in. the, you know, there's 22 members and one has a yeah, but   That's okay, but we just need to get past it so that it's a real, real sincere buy-in. and Kiera, I have, mean, to this day, and I've been doing this for a good minute, I've never not had a team member not be able to get past the abut ever. Because the rest of their team members, that's when they also step in and say, well, we can help you and we can do this and let's look at it at this angle. So that buy-in definitely does help, it does.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (16:47) Well, I think what you even teach on that Trish is that's healthy debate of a team. If they're the yeah, but great. We want to hear that. We don't want just head nods of yes, but in the back of your mind, you're sitting there like, ⁓ but like, we are saying this goal, but the reality is we don't even have the patience to do that. That's a great call out. So let's talk about that and find out, is this a new patient issue? Is this a motivation issue? Is this a diagnosis issue? There's ways, but teaching teams that the yeah, but   Tricia Lee Ackerman (16:52) Yes.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (17:18) is not wrong. The yeah, but that is trying to derail, not bought in, hating your team, that is wrong. Like that is not okay. That is not healthy debate. That is just willful rebellion. And that person is a wrong person and should probably move along and not probably like I would recommend strongly. ⁓ But most of the time I found that teams are not doing it out of willful rebellion. They really do have hesitations and reservations. And if we can just talk about it and find solutions.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (17:25) Yes.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (17:46) but you want to also encourage your team to bring these up. Again, not in Willful Rebellion where they're just like, we're not doing this, but in a true like, what are the blind spots? What have we missed? So that way we can actually win the game. That's what we're looking for. And I think it's brilliant. And I think when people hear that, there is no cookie cutter recipe for success. There is your practice, your team, your pieces. But I think the piece that Trish highlighted that we've done with all of them.   is you get the whole team by an, go around and I show them what they've committed to for six weeks. They all sign off on it. We put it up in the break room. They all see that every person on the team has signed their name, that they're committed to this at least until they designated deadline. And that I, I don't think, but I do think as an owner, I'll flip to like my owner hat. I think that that can be a hard thing to do as an owner to be like, all right, team, like I heard this great podcast. We're going to do this. I think sometimes this is the magic of having an outside voice come in.   to help your team rally, to teach them that this is the way we do it, so then owners can then duplicate this, but you're not the one who's having to set this up initially all on your own as well.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (18:51) I totally agree. Totally agree. And it's also change. know, like with success does come typically some change. And that can be scary to some people. mean, again, if you have the team of 20, you might have one that's like, okay, hold on, I want to do this, but... And it's also, it's empowering for us as consultants to remind, consistently remind people that change is uncomfortable as it is. Like it's a person, it's an internal personal growth too. It's not...   You're not always just making the practice see a better success. You're succeeding as yourself as an individual by just going through that uncomfortableness. Just that alone. You'll take that with you outside of the office. they grow, yes, they grow professionally, but they do also grow personally. And when I talk about like, love seeing, you know, I love changing the lives of people. I do sometimes get a little emotional about that because   The most rewarding piece of this is when you do have a doctor or a team member share that not only has the practice implemented things and tools that have really helped them be more efficient and just happy, but that outside of the office, these individuals have a different skip in their step as well. And that when it comes, when it comes full fold like that, talk about a win. That's powerful right there, that one.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (20:12) Yeah.   That is, and I'm so glad you said that because we were actually talking at Dental A Team and we changed it. We actually changed up what our mission and vision were and it's one practice, one life, one person at a time. And what you just said is our mission. It's like, yes, we're changing the practice, but we want to focus on the individuals on helping them change their life on them as a person. And I think it's so magical that we get the playing field of the dental practices that brings us all together, but we're able to change those lives. And so I think Trish,   I love the magic, the passion, the camaraderie. I watch you, you turn teams around very quickly and it's fun to watch you work to their nuances. I see you, I feel like you're a chameleon with practices. You morph into who that practice needs. You change and adapt. You change your style. Sometimes you're like over the top flamboyant. Other times you are like solemn and somber. You always have your wit to you that never changes. But you really will adapt to the team and what the team needs at that point.   And you have insane results. And so I think for one, we're so lucky to have you two offices are so lucky to work with you. Yes, of course you're welcome. And three, I think for anyone listening, if you're like, I wonder what that might be like in my practice, I wonder like how this would be. I hope you've heard that it is never coming in and ripping apart a team. is taking their successes or wins. heard Trish. They're brilliant. The teams are brilliant. They're already doing 90 % of it. Right. Let's just help them get that one or 2 % change. So they're actually able to get the wins.   So if you're interested in that, reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We'd love to come to your practice. We'd love to help you out. We'd love to see if you're a great candidate for it. So reach out, we'd love to help you out. And Trish, thanks for being on our team. Thanks for sharing the wins and ⁓ thanks for truly just changing lives out there.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (21:56) Thank you, Kiera. Thank you so much.   Kiera Dent- Dental A Team (21:58) Of course, and for all of you listening, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

Tiff and Dana address one of the most popular topics for Dental A-Team consultants: overhead! They talk about what it entails, where to start when looking to reduce it, critical questions to ask yourself about needs versus wants, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiff (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Thank you for being here with us today. Thank you for listening. We say this every time, but we love what we do and we love bringing you so much valuable information. And the fact that Kiera can do all the podcasts she does blows my mind. ⁓ but she is a busy bee over there, and the fact that we get to do these as well is just really, really fun for us. It allows all of the consultants here on our team to really feel like we're giving back to you guys. So with that, I have Dana here with me today, and   Dana, gosh, we have been podcasting together for a really long time. I can't even put a number to it. And I remember, I don't know if you remember, but I remember I remember where I was sitting. I remember the thought process. And I remember it was me, you and Britt on a call on a Zoom link. And it was the first time marketing had said we want to do video with the podcast. And I was like, what? And video like was not, it was just like up and coming.   I didn't understand it. It was on Instagram. I was watching I was like, why am I watching you talk? Like the a podcast is to listen. Why am I watching you talk? And now I mean it's very normal and that's how I watch them. And I feel like I feel like it was like YouTube came back around, you know. But anyways, I remember that day vividly. ⁓ I don't remember what we were talking about, but I remember being like, I have to like do my hair. I'm gonna be seen.   DAT-Dana (01:23) Yeah. Yeah. I know it was   funny because we always could see each other, right, in those early days, but it was just like we weren't creating the video content for it. And I remember thinking exactly like who's gonna want to watch   Tiff (01:33) Yes.   DAT-Dana (01:35) us who's gonna want to watch us do this thing but then I see my kids literally like watching people play Minecraft and it's like their favorite thing and I'm like wouldn't it be more fun to actually go play? So I do feel like there is definitely this like niche of people like wanting to watch and like you know get a glimpse in of like the podcast world and just different worlds in general and so I agree with you. I remember the three of us just kind of being like who's gonna want to watch us talk to each other but hey we're so glad you're here.   Tiff (01:37) Yeah.   Yes.   It's true.   Yeah.   DAT-Dana (02:05) Yeah.   Tiff (02:06) Yes, I agree. And the three fur podcasts are hard. So hard when there's so many people virtually. And yeah, I r I remember the shock. I wish I could remember what the ⁓ podcast actually it was probably I bet you it was probably one that we did for Kiera. We probably it bosses day or something, yeah, 'cause if there are multiple of us. Anyways, that was that popped into my head this morning as I I always have to now have like prep for podcast time so I can like   DAT-Dana (02:12) Yeah.   Like Boss's Day or something like that. Yeah.   Tiff (02:35) just tame my hair or get my ring light just right. And I'm like, gosh, I remember the days that we did not have to do this. And then we have c new to Dental A Team consultants come on and I'm like, we're gonna podcast. And they're like stressed and I'm like, I get it. I just I get it. I saw them go talk yourself in the mirror for a bit first. You'll get used to it.   DAT-Dana (02:50) Yeah. Yeah.   I know   I remember in the early days I would always have to reframe my podcast because I'd see podcasting on my schedule and I'm like, ⁓ like I gotta get on. So then I just started reframing it. It was like time with Tiff, time with Britt, time with Kiera. And it's how I like kind of learn get over the like of the podcasting space. So I totally feel it when new consultants are like, I have my first podcast today.   Tiff (03:12) I love that.   Yeah,   yeah, and they all come to you, right? 'Cause I'll all schedule it and then they're like, Dana, what do I do? That's so cute. Yeah. I love the reframe. That actually like goes I think hand in hand with what we're talking about today. ⁓ but I think you can do that with anything and I have to remind myself, even like gosh, when I get up in the morning, I got up this morning and I went from for my walk and I was like, ⁓ this sucks and I was like, No, you get to be in the morning sun.   You get to move your body before anybody else in the house is awake. Like I think that's the part that's the hardest is like everybody else gets to sleep, you know? But you that reframe is so powerful. And we can look at a schedule and think I I look at my schedule and I'm like, shoot. This is so busy. Or gosh, I'm I'm like   So long today, and I have to reframe it often and be like, gosh, no, actually I get to do something really cool. And I get to wake up and go for a walk and I get to do these things or I get to go to an office and I get to be boots on the ground with other people. So I love that you mentioned that reframe, Dana. That was really smart. So today's reframe, which I love, I think this is one of the most popular conversations that we have. We get a couple of things here at Dental A Team. ⁓   We love everything that we get, but the most common, most popular things are systems, which we will help you with systems, I promise you. And there are thousands of podcasts I think that just Dana and I have done on systems and operations manual. So go look them up. We're not doing that today. And the second, which I actually really have grown to truly love, ⁓ is overhead cost reduction and and overhead analysis. And so many practice owners and leaders come to us and they're like, gosh.   what does overhead even mean? I know I had a conversation with a client last week that has been in the dental like consulting world for years and years and years. And w his question was what does that even what does it mean? Like overhead can mean so many different things to so many different people and so many different consulting companies. And for the sake of today's conversation and the sake of forever with Dental A Team know that when we say overhead, we are talking about top of the line   Whatever I always say if someone were to purchase your practice, what are the expenses they'd be taking over? Anything outside of that, your pay, your taxes, your debt, your debt will follow you typically, right? You can lump it into the loan, ⁓ but it's not overhead top of the line expense. So your debt, meaning your scanners, ⁓ your school debt, anything like that is outside of quote unquote overhead. So when we talk about overhead, it's top of the line and that had to that that   explanation, I think it can just vary. It can vary depending on who you're talking to. So today we wanted to reframe that, Dana Go. No, I love it.   DAT-Dana (06:08) and I don't want to interrupt you, but I think too just   just to be clear on overhead too, anything that you run through the business, right? Again, that's not something absolutely with your CPA, you structure it how you want. But understand that that's not an expense that somebody is going to take on when they take over the bracket.   Tiff (06:25) Yes, I love that. Thank you. Good clarification. so with this kind of reframe, every everybody's like reduce overhead, reduce overhead. And I totally agree. And a lot of a lot of companies, a lot of people, ⁓ a lot of strategists will come in and they're like, okay, what can we cut? And we for sure, like, we'll come in and look at what if there's space to make cuts, but our biggest piece is always we're not gonna spend a lot of time on it today because we've got a million other podcasts about it.   I think I just did one actually with Kristy not that long ago, but the first place we're gonna look is your collections. A lot of people will say, I need to over I need to produce. And I love the statement, you can't outproduce your problems. So if you're producing, producing, producing, producing, but you're still feeling like there's an issue. And if you're meeting the financial, like you're meeting your goal, your production goal, but you're still cash flow short, then there's an issue in your collections. And so look at your collections and Dana.   I would love to hear quick snippet, what are the areas that you tackle when it comes to overhead and it comes to collections? And then I want to talk about the reframes and the other pieces.   DAT-Dana (07:33) Yeah, so you're exactly right. The first thing I'm gonna look at is the collections number. I'll look at the total, like what is the total percentage and like what profit point do we need to get to when it comes to collections? And then the very next thing I'm gonna look at is your AR because honestly and truly I've been able to get practices out of cash flow crisis, out of really feeling that pinch simply by going after already produced   ⁓ monies. And so I think that those are usually the things that I look at. Okay, what are we collecting? What does our profit point need to be for healthy AR?   Right. And and obviously we're gonna talk about is that possible? How do we get your schedule to get you there? But then the very next thing I'm gonna look at is AR. Is there money that I can just quickly tackle that's already been produced that's gonna help the collections problem? So I'm looking at the total collections, collections percentage, and then what's sitting in AR, because if I can tackle that and make a really quick difference, ⁓ sure, we can budget things, we can line item your PL, we can we can chop where we need to, but those things are often the fastest, easiest, quickest fixes.   and like you said, you like outproducing the problem. If I can fix AR and then we can create systems that it doesn't happen again, oftentimes we don't even have to really touch production, right? Because we're already producing pretty well in a lot of these cases. So those are that's kind of where I start.   Tiff (08:46) Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. And it's something that makes such a massive difference. Knowing one, knowing your numbers, knowing what your numbers mean. So knowing your overhead, knowing your outgoing expenses is massive. And then looking to see, okay, well, if these are my outgoing expenses, what do I need to collect in order to profit? Right. And then if we're not collecting that, is it because production isn't where it needs to be? So what's our what's our bare minimum?   And is collections meeting that or is production meeting that so that collections can meet our bare minimum. If production is or is way above and our collections is just tanked, like I saw somebody the other day that was like 83% collections. They're like, we gotta produce more. And I Yeah, absolutely. If we want to maintain 83% collections and get your overhead in line, you for sure have to produce more. But also we can tackle your collections and get your collections up to that ninety-eight percent that it should be or above, and really not have to work   you harder as the provider work our numbers harder and get that collections up. It also kind of flows into Dana, I think the capacity that we just recorded a podcast. So probably the podcast ahead of this one I would assume is is about capacity. And I think that capacity conversation flows into this one really, really well. So all right, collections.   Go do it. We will harp on that for days, but go do it. If you need help with it, you're not sure, you don't know how to analyze it, you need help with your numbers, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are honestly and truly here to help you. We will provide you as much information as we possibly can to get you on the right track. Now, something else that we like to do within that, and we talked about this on capacity, we talked about analyzing ⁓ fee schedules, right? But then we also need to analyze expenses. So when we're really looking at things and we're saying, okay.   Great, this is my overhead. I like to think, okay, does it have to be my overhead though? So a lot of people will look at staff cost, the employee cost. I actually I look at it, I kind of glaze that, you guys. I don't, I don't like to touch the staff cost unless it absolutely is extraordinary and there's maybe team members that are taking advantage or you're feeling like there's something culturally wrong in your practice, then I'm gonna say, okay, great.   Let's really take a look at this and make sure that we're being efficient with our time. We're not in overtime. We're not in those spaces. But I'm gonna kind of glaze at that unless there's a red flag somewhere else. And then I'm gonna look at those other expenses as well. And something that I really love to do is to analyze what do we need versus what we have. It reminds me of when Brody was little, we'd go to the store and he'd be like, Mom, is this a want or a need? Is it on your list? Is you have are you getting it because you just want it and it sounds exciting?   Or do we actually need this? And Dana, I love the conversation that you have around. I'm gonna say like analyze your vendors, analyze your contracts with vendors, but I love the conversation around ⁓ the wants versus needs when it comes to scanners, when it comes to mills. And I love I I miss the conversation actually. I miss the conversation of negotiate with your labs. And I miss that conversation because   I think that the mill has become such a bandwagon thing. It's been around for so long and it's such a bandwagon thing that everybody's that jumped into. But I love your your like evaluation of is it necessary? Is it actually going to save us the time and the money and get us the results that we want? And I would love, Dana, for you to talk through some of that and how you help your clients decide. Because I'm not against the mill, I'm not for it. I'm for it for the practices that it works.   And I'm for making sure that it's going to work and it's gonna do its due diligence. So what how is that conversation for you, Dana, when you talk to your practices about it   DAT-Dana (12:44) Yes. I love this conversation too, too. I   think first and foremost, I always want to know when when somebody wants to purchase something big like that. So whether it's a new scanner or whether it's a mill, like why.   Why do we want to purchase it? Is it because we have a scanner that we constantly use and we're constantly pulling and we never have it in the like appointment times that we need? So then we need to talk about adding another scanner. Is it that like we need another tool to show patients, but like could we just do IOPs a little bit more until we've got the budget set for the scanner? I'm not saying no to scanners. I'm not saying no to mills. I'm just saying, why do we want it? Is it the right time and is it going to do what you anticipate it's going to do as far as your budget goes?   Because I think we can talk about scanners and what's going to add so much more to my production. Okay, well, it is, but when are we going to use it? How often are we going to use it? Who's going to use it? How are we mapping it out to make sure that it really is putting more production on your schedule and it really is reducing your lab fees? Right. Scanner is a great tool for negotiating with a lab, but are you going to do that? Are you going to do the negotiations? Are you going to send them enough work to make it worth having the scanner?   Same thing with the mill. I'm always asking like why, right? And I know that kind of the mill is the hot spot or the mill is like the next big thing. And I think sometimes, you know, I hear a lot from doctors, well, it's gonna buy me back a lot of time. Well, it's only gonna buy you back time if you're going to let your assistant, right, help design and do the actual milling. If you're not gonna let that happen, then we're actually using more of your time than and sometimes it's not will you let them, it's do you have the capacity within your assistant team right now to be able to allow them.   Tiff (14:07) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   DAT-Dana (14:21) to do those things because maybe we're short staffed in that area or maybe assistants are really hard to find. Well then maybe now's not the time to bring on the mill because it's actually going to use more of your time versus less of your time. And then you know all of these purchases typically come with either a large payout, right? Or a decent size loan that we're paying every single month. And so I like to kind of reverse engineer with my practices so they know cold hard facts how many crowns they have to do every single month.   to make that loan payment worth it or make that payout out of their emergency fund or their growth fund or wherever they're pulling that funds from. Hopefully not their emergency funds, but sometimes right, doctors get wild on us and it feels like an emergency to get that.   Mill. So knowing exactly how many crowns you have to do every single month. And then I'm saying, okay, let's go back through the last year. Let's see, did we even do as many? Because if we didn't do as many, then now's not the time. Let's get to that many crowns every single month, then take a look at the mill. Because so often we think, hey, the mill is going to save me on lab fees, but you have to do so many of them for it to save you on lab fees. And again, I'm not pro mill. I'm not like I'm neutral when it comes to mill. I think it's a great tool, but it's not the best tool for every   Tiff (15:25) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   DAT-Dana (15:35) practice at that exact time. I think you really have to look   At and crunch things when you decide to make those purchases and really look at it as is it truly going to give your time back? Is it truly going to give you your lab fees back? Is it truly going to up your patient experience or up your diagnosis or whatever it is? Because that is when it makes it worth it. So I just like to like have the conversation, review the numbers together, and kind of say, hey, like this is the reality of the purchase. I, you know, I am.   Totally understand the like purchase in the feels, right? I get that. I've done it. I'm human. I think we've all been like, but this is gonna feel so good when I have it. But I think look at the numbers and make sure because these things can really hit your these these debt services can really hit your profit points if it's not set up correctly and you don't know kind of the benchmarks you have to hit to make it help with profit versus hurt.   Tiff (16:11) Yeah.   Yeah.   Absolutely. I think it's so beautiful. And a follow-up to that too is if you already have the mill, you already have the scanner, you already made the purchase or the laser, Dana, as you were talking, I was like, the lasers, the lasers. There's so many there's just so many really cool tools that dentistry has that makes us feel like we've got to jump on it to be the most progressive, to be the most exciting, to stay up with the times, to to not fall behind. And really they're just fun and exciting. It's like   ⁓ Canva and you know we only had Photoshop and then Canva came out and then we had, you know, all of these different opportunities. And it it can be easy to jump on board with them. So if we already have jumped on board, we didn't have this conversation, or maybe we did, and then gosh, we're just falling a little bit short. This is the overhead analysis as well. This all flows into that overhead analysis. So as you're looking at your overhead and you see those   those loans under on you have your bottom you have your top line and you have a bottom line. And at your bottom line, when you see those other loans in there and you're like, gosh, Def, Dana, I just I'm not using the scanner as much as I thought I did. I know both of us have I all of our consultants are really, really fantastic at having conversations like this that say, okay, great, why? Dana, you said something earlier, you said it asking more questions, right? Like I want to know, I want to know why you want it.   what it's gonna do for your practice and then reverse engineer it. And we are really great at pulling out the why for anything. So if you're not, if you bought it and you're not using it, we're gonna say, well, why aren't we using it? Is it because it's not the tool that we needed or we wanted and or we don't have the patient base for it or is it because we're not trained, we're not holding accountabilities. And ultimately, if this thing isn't working for your practice, it's not doing what you wanted it to or gosh, you just hate it. You don't like it. You don't want to use it.   This is a conversation with the company that you can have. You can call the company and say, Hey, what can I do? How can I how can I get out of this? I've had ⁓ I've had doctors that have had this conversation with them and they do have like a smaller buyout, right? They're like, Well, we'll buy it back from you, but you're gonna it's kind of like taking a car in and you you're you know, you're under.   So you you owe a little bit more on your car and then you owe on the car that you're buying. So it kind of sucks because you do have to pay that out, but could getting out of that contract early, sending the equipment back, save you in the long run because you haven't paid that total balance. Or a lot of doctors will call and they're like, yeah, absolutely. I have a doctor actually who's looking for one that might buy it from you.   And so you can you can sell this equipment as well if it's not working for you. So I don't ever want doctors to really just feel so stuck in the decisions that either they've made or that they want to make and you have that kind of decision paralysis. So as we're going through that looking at ⁓ cost control and overhead control.   Part of the conversation as well. So there's the projecting side and really looking at do I do I need this? What can it do? And then there's the evaluation side of is this working for me? And Dana, I think that same conversation when it comes to like marketing. Are is my marketing ROI coming in? Is it getting me what I what I thought it was going to? There's magazines investments, there's all of these like hottie-totty ⁓ marketing efforts that are coming around right now. They're trying to like really reinvent a lot of wheels.   And projecting and seeing, does this fit my avatar? Is this gonna work? Gosh, your telephone company, I know our like cable and internet. We don't even have cable, but it's the same company, right? And I'm like, why are we paying for cable and internet? And it just jumped like $90. And I'm like, what the heck? It's a call and a conversation with your vendors and looking at, okay, am I getting the most value for what I'm spending? And that I think Dana helps us to calm the storm.   Because what happens typically is we're like, okay, I gotta produce more in order to afford my life. And it's just like personal, right? I gotta work more in order to afford the lifestyle that I want. Well, maybe the lifestyle that you want can be had with less debt or less stuff, you know, and really evaluating your quote unquote lifestyle in the practice and out.   DAT-Dana (20:43) Yeah, I agree with you because like dental offices, do we have to spend money? Do we have expenses? Yes, absolutely. Let's make sure those expenses are doing what we need them to do and and we have an ROI on those expenses. And I do feel like just doctors highlighting like, don't forget those bottom of the line things because oftentimes it's like, hey, my payroll's in line, my rent's in line, my marketing is in line, everything's in line, but I don't have any profit at the end of the month. And I think don't forget to take a look at oftentimes I think there's an impression of doctors that like those below the   aligned things are like fixed expenses and oftentimes they are variable expenses that we can do something about it. We can make changes like you said, sell it or start using it, right? Or incorporating a way for it to help us produce or collect more. I think just don't forget those bottom of the line things and don't look at them as hey, those are fixed things, right? A lot of times those items aren't. We can either move the needle as far as using them or move the needle as far as offloading them.   Tiff (21:15) Uh-huh.   Yes.   DAT-Dana (21:42) Right. I just had a conversation with the practice. Like, why do we have two scanners? Right. Like, why do we need them? Walk me through it. If if you can walk me through why and it makes sense, totally keep your scanners, utilize them, have it help you. Right. But if we don't need them, then let's not have that sit there every month and pull from that profit that you so desperately need.   Tiff (21:45) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I love that conversation and I think it's something that's a piece of value that the consulting team brings to our clients that I think is totally undervalued. I know I have clients that are like, Teff, I wanna buy this thing. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Like, tell me why. How are we gonna afford it? Great. I have a doctor that was like, I like this scanner better, but I bought this scanner before I knew that this scanner was better. And I was like, Awesome. Well it sounds you want that scanner. He's like, Yeah, I'm gonna get it. And I said, Cool, what are you gonna do with that scanner that you don't like?   Because that one is still being paid on. It's still in your office. And he's like, okay. So it's like we have this innate ability, right, to see things very, very cleanly. I had a conversation just last week with a client that was like, Tiff, what do I do? And it was like a personnel thing, right? I said, Listen, my job and the and the superpower that I have for you is to be very black and white in business. I'm not emotionally attached to what's going on in the practice. I I love you, I love the practice, I love the team.   And I I have emotions towards you, but I'm able to separate it out and say, hey, do this, don't do this, or these are the black and white opinions that I see. These are the pros and the cons that I can see. I'm not emotionally attached to one scanner is better than the other. I'm emotional, I'm not emotionally attached to the money that's coming in or going out. I am neutral and I'm able to say it is or it isn't. And so that value, that ROI is not always really easy to see.   in the numbers until you look backwards and say, gosh, actually I sold that scanner because of or I didn't buy that and gosh, I'm so happy. Or I was able to invest in my team because I could see my shortcomings or my accountability faults or the accountability that Dana was able to give me so that I could give my team like those spaces are just so   valuable in this overhead analysis is huge. And I know you and I do it often. I know the rest of the consulting team does. Gosh, Kristy, Kiera likes to say she's like a truffle hunting ⁓ little, you know, little piggy out there finding the dollars. And that's how she does it as well. And Nikki and Pam and all of you know, Diana, every one of us are out there looking for those dollars from that black and white kind of business mindset because it's easier for us as a pulled out   Peace, right? And Dana, I just think that is a space that doctors, I can't imagine making those kinds of decisions by myself, right? Even just as simple as purchasing a mill. Like because it's so it's like walk walking into Louis Vuitton with a credit card with no limits and expecting me to not leave with a purse, right? Because in my head it's paid for, it's done, it's it's good.   But then on the flip side, I've got expenses and other things and they've always got just gotta have that person who can be that sound mind.   DAT-Dana (24:58) Yeah. Yep. I agree with you.   Tiff (25:00) All right, Dana, so overhead cost analysis. ⁓ I would say, and I think Dana, add anything you can think of. My pro thought process is figure out your bottom line first of all. Figure out what are your costs, your fixed costs that aren't changing. If someone were to purchase your practice, then then look at what's left over. How much debt do you have? what do you want to be making? Are you paying yourself and are you paying yourself what you want to be making?   And are you saving money? So what do those buckets look like? That to me is your is your bare minimum. You have your bare minimum of this is what it takes to keep my practice open and my employees paid. And then you have your bare minimum of this is what I want my practice to look like. So I like to add that fluff in there. I know Dana does as well. We have our bare minimum and then we have our bare minimum. And our our second bare minimum is the number that I work from ⁓ and tack on a little bit extra. So overhead analysis, look at what your numbers are, look at what your   DAT-Dana (25:46) How many? Yeah.   Tiff (25:55) Collecting, always look at collections and then look at what your debt looks like and look at what your spending is. Is there anywhere in there that can be negotiated? Is there anywhere in there that maybe we need to start using a tool a little bit more to get it paid, paying for itself? Just like you want your team to pay for themselves, you want your equipment to pay for themselves as well. Dana, is there anything you can think of that I missed that I didn't add in there as an action item that they can scurry on home to do?   DAT-Dana (26:24) No, I think I think that those are great tools for them to really be able to slice and dice and look at those pieces.   Tiff (26:31) Awesome. All right, guys, go do the thing. Pull up your PLs, pull up month by month, pull up year to date, pull up last year's, and look at what your expenses truly are. And when you get to the point that you want some third-party perspective, some eyes on it, if you're a current client, you should be doing this with your consultant too. So do it. I want you to know how to do it and I want you to do it with your consultant as well. If you're not yet a consultant, you're ⁓ someone who is a listener and you want you're not a consultant, you're not a client.   You're a listener and you want help with this, please reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com There's also a link on our website, TheDentalATeam.com, that you can schedule a consult with us and they'll help you run through a lot of that information as well. We are here to help. So let us know how we can best serve you and how we can help you in the short and the long run. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. All right, guys, and we will catch you next time. Thanks so much.