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Tiff and Kristy discuss the ongoing challenges of hiring, including how incentives and mentalities have shifted over the past five years — and what you, as someone hiring, can do about it. Part of the discussion includes the pros and cons of how to pay team members. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:02) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back today. I have Ms. Kristy again with me and we are just having a good old time over here recording ⁓ Love and Life and getting our time in together. I think you guys have heard us say it before. This is like, and I know Dana says the same thing, this is some of the only one-on-one time that we get in our lives. I don't know if you guys know this or not, but we are a completely virtual company, meaning we are all at our homes.   We don't have like a workspace that we come to and then if you're a client of ours, you know, we're on calls or in offices quite a bit as consultants or our consulting team. We really just don't get a ton of time together. So these couple of hours that we bust out some podcasts are near and dear to our hearts and I just adore you Kristy and I appreciate you blocking out the time when your schedule always for it and for always just putting so much value into everything that you do.   with your clients, with your podcasting, everything that you do. So Kristy, thank you so much. Thank you for being a part of the Dental A Team. Thank you for being here today. How are you? How are things going over there?   DAT Kristy (01:09) Good, thank you for having me. It's wonderful. I love what I do serving people and it just brings great joy. So happy to be here with you.   The Dental A Team (01:18) Amazing. Good.   Thank you. And I have a question that I haven't asked you yet. How are, how's your family adjusting to the heat to being here and your puppy who's not necessarily a puppy anymore, but he'll always be a puppy. All your dogs, I guess, both your dogs, but how's everybody, how's everybody doing kind of getting settled into Arizona?   DAT Kristy (01:40) Yeah, everybody's loving it. Thank goodness there's pools around so we can get cooled off. the dogs, they're definitely staying indoors right now. It's especially the little Frenchie, you know, that you have to be careful because they will overheat really easy. He's I can tell he's missing his walks right now, but they'll swim.   The Dental A Team (01:46) Thank you.   Yeah.   Yeah, good, good.   I had a black lab that hated water, like couldn't be anywhere near water, which is so not allowed. And summers were rough. He would get hot, but he wanted to be out there, but he was an Arizona born dog, so he was fine. But I was just thinking about earpups this morning, like, gosh, they're not used to not being able to just go outside and chill in the backyard for a couple hours. Well, I'm glad that they swim. I'm glad that they're enjoying that.   DAT Kristy (02:25) So true.   The Dental A Team (02:31) ⁓ and yeah, we're just, we're excited to bring you some information this, this day. We've got, gosh, what four podcasts for recording. So I'm super excited for them all to release and you guys, we always want you to know that these podcasts are for you. So if there's ever anything that you have hopes, wishes, desires, things you want us to talk about things that you want us to dive in deeper on, please just always reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are always taking suggestions and we're always here to help.   And also if there's anything that we say on these podcasts that we're like, we'll get you that. We really do mean that as well. have clients that write in all the time and say, Tiff said, and I'm like, sometimes my marketing team is like, what were you talking about? I don't know, but we figure it out. Whatever it is that we say that you can have, we want you to have it. We are here to deliver massive amounts of information to the dental community in the best ways possible and that.   comes with a ton of free resources. That's our podcast, that's our sheets, our documents, our website. We have all kinds of stuff everywhere, our ⁓ social media, we're on Instagram and Facebook, like wherever you can find us, you're gonna find a slew of information. So we're here for you and when you're ready for one-on-one consulting and not just getting all the information on your own via the web, please reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are so excited to serve all of you guys in whatever way fits you the best today. Kristy.   I wanted to chat this podcast today. I've had, well, number one, I've had a lot of hiring in all of my practices. So I actually chatted with a doctor yesterday, a very successful doctor in Colorado, and he was like, Tiff, what the heck? Like, we lost another one. We just filled our hygiene spots and now we're in front office. And like, what is it? What's going on? He's like, just as soon as I feel like I'm making progress, someone leaves. And I said, you know what?   And he's like, it's hard to not take it personally. That's what he said. And I said, you know what? I understand that. And I, and I feel that. And on the level of, you know, being a lead on a team, I don't own this company, but I have a lot of vested interest in this company and its success. And it's hard. And I said, we come from, we come from a time of, of being employees, right? When we were employees and we were working and, and our work ethic.   Not even ethic, I don't even think it's ethic. Just like our tendency to stick around one place longer, is, it was there longer than it is now. So we just, we didn't leave. We stayed where we were. We became part of the family. We allowed work to become a bigger piece of our lives than it does for a lot of people in this day and age, in my opinion. I think that we,   made work our, like we tied our identity to work. And so leaving was a bigger ⁓ undertaking than it is when you're not so tied to what your job is, your title is, or the place is. And it's much easier to say, you know what, I can, I want to grow into something different. I want to be someone different. I want to change. And so they do, they leave more easily. And I think from   our point of view, it makes it really hard because we tied so many emotions to our job and our identity to our job that we're like, gosh, do they not like us? Do they not like where they work? Am I not doing good enough as an employer? But the reality is we've actually created an environment and ⁓ a social standing that people identify with who they are as a human outside of work better.   than we ever have in our lives. So it's like a catch-22, no matter what, there's a pro and a con to everything. And the pro is that they're not so identity attached to their jobs or their titles. The con is that it's easy for them to jump ship and try something new. We're much more apt to dip our toes in and try that new thing. And so I think the hiring has just over the last, realistically five years, has had a lot more turnover and we spent a lot more time hiring.   than we ever have in the past. And I could be making all of that up. That's my opinion. That's not like scientifically proven, but it's just something that I've noticed by studying people and studying myself as well. Like how am I transitioning? How am I changing my identity tools and all of those pieces as I watch the climates change so much. Kristy, what are your thoughts on that? I know we both have a lot of clients. I have experienced a lot of hiring this year. What are you seeing?   DAT Kristy (07:11) 100 % exactly what you said Tiff and it is hard. It's a hard reality. I think ⁓ Back in college. I took sociology not that I really liked it But now I'm like man I wish I would have dug into it more because I think there is something with the new generation and ⁓ Not to go woo-woo, but I think there is something with those personalities. You know what I mean and It's kind of funny and listening to you talk about it because our generation is   always like speaking to work-life balance, work-life balance, and I think the new generation actually has it figured out better.   But we're angry at it. We want it and they're doing it. And I get it. And I also get it because of being in a, in a practice administration role. Like it's hard hiring and training and retraining and hiring. And so I think ⁓ we've got to find a way to maneuver around that easier versus ⁓ taking it so personal and choosing to see it as a good thing. Maybe not necessarily a thing, but yeah.   The Dental A Team (07:50) Mm-hmm. agree.   Yeah, that   was beautifully said.   You're totally right. I love that you said you pointed out the work life balance because I agree and I whenever I hear the words work life balance now I think of that like yeah, I'm like it's like that live laugh love that we had all over our houses like every room had a live laugh love sign somewhere and it's like so outdated and overplayed when I hear the words work life balance. I'm like, my gosh, like stop saying that just have balance. just have balance balance balance. If you continue separating work and life.   and not understanding that it's one, you're one person, you're gonna continue to be out of balance. So just have balance. And I think you're right. think they've, lot of people have found that balance where neither tips the scale and they just understand their boundaries and their priorities a little better than maybe we did when we were their ages. So there's our spiel on that. But one of the...   DAT Kristy (09:10) I was gonna tell you, it's kind   of ironic, I'm spilling the beans and being vulnerable now, but my daughter's in dentistry, you I roped her into it. And so I hear it from her often, mom, it's not my life, like it is yours. And I was like, ⁓ stab me, right? Like, it's so true. So I'm living it.   The Dental A Team (09:32) Yes, it is. Yeah.   Yeah, so   you're seeing it firsthand. You're seeing it with your practices and just watching, but then also within your own home. So I totally get that. And I have a actually happy practice out in Rhode Island near and dear to my heart. The office manager's daughter is their billing rep. And I see the same kind of conversations, the office manager and like stop taking work home, like just do it at work. And then her daughter is like, why are you working at home? Like put it away. And so I do, I see that same dynamic there. And I think, I actually think the ages are   about the same, like you guys are both in the same spaces there. ⁓ So it's interesting, but I think with that conversation, doctors oftentimes and office managers are like, what can we do more of? What can we do better? How can we offer things differently? And the hygiene market is wild still, okay? It's 2025, I don't know when you're listening to this, but I hope if it's years from now, things are better.   Because the hygiene market is still a little wild. It's just still hard to find hygienists So if you're listening to this now like go apply to hygiene school because the demand is high Go get your degree go do your thing and come out a hygienist, but we oftentimes get asked for provider information on pay, right? And so we have a couple of different scenarios a couple different options. I Mean dollar per hour still near and dear to my heart when it comes to employees. I think that it just   I just, for me, it's an ease of life. It's just easier. And so I love dollar per hour, but I do like the stipulation that a provider should be making three to 3.5 times their rate of pay in order to pay for themselves so that the overhead doesn't get out of control. So dollar per hour, three to 3.5 times their rate of pay. You've got to do the digging on what your area.   is hiring at or what they're paying their hygienist or their dental assistants, whomever, because it does change, it does differ by area. More rural is going to be maybe a little less, city life is probably going to be a little more, Indianapolis compared to Phoenix, compared to San Francisco, compared to, I don't know, New Mexico, right? They're all going to be very different rates of pay. So I can always, you know, we can always spew out some numbers to you, but Google is a really fantastic tool and Salary.com gets it right every single   So go check those for sure dollar per hour and then I really wanted to chat a little bit and we talked about this a little bit ahead of time me and Kristy did on paying based off of production or collections and in my opinion I've seen this I've seen this and in my opinion it's kind of the same structure that you would give to an associate so Don't over complicate it a lot of practice owners a lot of office managers like to over complicate it so just don't do that and   pay like you would an associate? What would that look like? What would those stipulations be? What would the percentage of production or collections look like? ⁓ And pay based off of that. There are pros and cons, right, to everything. And I think there are pros and cons to paying off of production or collections. And Kristy, I think I'd love to hear from you on that production-based pay, because I know that you've seen that and worked with some clients that have done that. What are some things that you've seen that work well? Why?   Some clients, like I've had clients recently ask, should I move to a percentage structure rather than a salary or a dollar per hour? What do you see work well within that percentage structure on production or collections? Like you said earlier, I do think collections is a little bit more difficult for providers, especially for hygienists that don't have a lot of say in that, but production-based maybe as well. Kristy, what are your thoughts?   DAT Kristy (13:08) Yeah.   To be honest with you, this is something a little near and dear to my heart. And I think we will probably see ⁓ a little more of it just with, ⁓ I don't want to get in the political things, but we know that there are some states looking at assistance getting into hygiene. so with that being said, we all know that hygienists come out of school and they take their boards and they're all expecting to come in at that same level. Right. And just like associates, we know   they   all do their testing as well, come out with their doctorate and get their license. But we know they likely aren't going to produce at the same level, right? So hygienists are no different. Usually your seasoned hygienist can carry conversations different than, you know, somebody brand new. And their skill set is likely a little bit different, whether they've gone through more CE or not. So to be honest with you, I do   I'm a huge proponent of paid for performance ⁓ Yet I also feel in hygiene ⁓ Paying them a good going rate like you said, you know know what they're in your area and Give them that good going rate but just like you mentioned tiff with associates if somebody's performing and when I say performing I'm not just talking like production numbers or monetary That's just a side effect, but I'm talking like   moving your patients to health, getting them healthy, calling perio perio and having those different, you know, difficult conversations with patients. If they're willing to do that, why wouldn't we compensate them for that?   The Dental A Team (14:52) Yeah, I think that's fantastic. That is a very good point too. And that is something I think that comes up a lot for practices is that perio space. And if I've got one hygienist who's just rocking it out and having those difficult conversations and diagnosing correctly for our patient's health and not just for the production or just for the accolades, but really, really doing due diligence for our patients, how do I repay them? And I think that is a great point that that production-based pay   is.   an effect of that. think that's fantastic. I also see practices that will do dollar per hour and bonuses. So if you go above and beyond that 3.5%, they can get, you know, a one or 2 % or whatever you decide you want your bonus to be of what's above that. So one mistake I do see practices make with this, I'm going to give you a caveat, is that they'll do it the bonus based off of the total. And I typically would do the bonus based off of what was above and beyond the threshold. So we don't total it, we say this was our threshold, anything above   that is what you get the bonus off of. So any bonus programs is that's typically how I'm gonna run it because that's your excess. This is your overhead, this is your excess. So we're only bonusing off of excess and then also a small caveat, I did talk to an office the other day that was, they're making some transitions and they're like, do we change the structure? And I'm looking at it and I'm like, well.   they wanted to lower the threshold. And I said, well, no. Number one, no, never do that. ⁓ Number two.   You also didn't add in my overhead caveat and you're at 66 % I think overhead for the year, but the team's been bonusing. And so we're digging in trying to figure out like what's going on. I have a couple offices going through this right now. This one kind of East Coast stern was like a little topsy turvy upside down. So I think no matter what you do, you've got to make sure that it's going to work the best for your practice for your overhead. So if dollar per hour right now is the best bet and you're able to manage and control your overhead with   that, do that. If you've got a team that you're like, want to, I want to make this more production based and Kristy, like you were saying, like really give that energy to what we're pushing for and kind of pay them back right for the work that they're putting in. You have that flexibility and that level with the percentage on production collections and or bonuses. I love the, if you're asking me either or I would say   in my opinion, production-based over-bonusing. ⁓ It just is easier. Again, I want easier, and it's easier, and it's like tailored for this position, this person. It doesn't have to be across the board for the full practice if we're not to a point that we're ready for that yet. So cons. ⁓   I think there's cons to everything. There's cons to dollar per hour because often times, especially in the ⁓ temperature that we're in right now with the dollar per hour, it is hard to do three to three to point five times their rate of pay. I tell hygienists and I tell doctors all the time, I'll pay you whatever you're asking for. I'll pay you whatever you want. If you can make it work with the numbers. If you can do three to three point five times that rate of pay in production per hour, you've earned it. That's the point is that the overhead has to match.   and for our team members that are listening, I just need you guys to really hear me when I say doctors can't pay you from nothing. So if we're upside down in our overhead, we're not making profit on the company, the business is not profiting.   It's not just for the doctor to profit. It's not just for the doctor to go buy a house or whatever you think is actually happening behind the scenes. It's to ensure that things are paid for. And so if we're upside down in payroll, it's got to come from somewhere else. So then we got to pull it from supplies or from labs or from somewhere. And so the pay always just has to make sense. So if you can make it make sense, I don't care what it looks like. So there's pros and cons to all of it.   So there's the dollar per hour making sure that you're staying in line. There's you know, collections production based and then there's the accelerated which we're not going to spend a ton of time on the accelerated. kind of feel like it's a dying breed in this.   day and age. I love accelerated myself and I loved being hygiene assistant to accelerated hygiene, but that's a really great space too. I do have a hygienist that I know out in like the Chicago area who does accelerated and she's paid on production. She kills it. She is making really pretty numbers over there, but there's pros and cons to everything and it kind of runs the doctor a little ragged, so you just have to have the right system   for that and to make sure that it all just makes sense. And Kristy, you've got a ton of practices too in this same space. What would you have seen like really working or not working within any of this, whether it's associates or hygienists, really just what do you see that works really, really well?   DAT Kristy (20:08) Yeah, honestly, Tiff, I'm gonna say the one that I've seen work the best is a combination, right? ⁓ Again, a good going pay rate and then incentivizing them on.   I'm going add in it's more of a profit share model, right? Because like you said, it has to make sense with the numbers and be profitable. ⁓ And again, I do see a lot of ⁓ accelerated, but I will caution there too. The ones that I've seen work the best is when you give them a very good assistant that can perform. You know what I mean? Don't give them an entry level person that can't carry conversations. And I shouldn't say can't, but is   as developed right and or let them hand pick them and develop them right so that they work in tandem together and I've seen it work very well in both models but you have to have the right personality and desire there.   The Dental A Team (20:57) Yeah.   I think that's a fantastic point and to that point I've seen it work really well. ⁓   with the right assistant as well. And oftentimes what we do is we hire a hygiene assistant who's like the low level training, not quite the doctor's assistant yet. And the reality is it needs to be someone who knows how to run a schedule, how to talk with the patients, how to sell treatment, how to take the x-rays correctly and really give that concierge service because we've got to make up for not having as much time with the hygienist, right? So the hygienist does all of that in your hour appointments, but when you're   shortening them and they're doing accelerated, the hygienist is only in there for 30, 40 minutes, right? You're losing a lot of value there from the hygienist transitioning. So that assistant definitely has to be top level, top notch. And we make that mistake a lot. I've made that mistake in my own office and hiring many, many times. So it's kind of opposite and you really need a skilled assistant to be your hygiene assistant. I agree. That's a great point. Awesome.   DAT Kristy (22:15) And you know   what, Tiff, you mentioned earlier that the margins are getting hard, especially with PPO and they're not reimbursing. You made a good point about the co-diagnosis aspect. Make sure you're factoring that in. Like look at what's coming out, know, track it and see, because that also needs to be factored into the pay scale, right? It may not just be 100 % hygiene services. You almost have to look   The Dental A Team (22:37) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (22:45) at hygiene sometimes as part of your marketing strategy in a way, you know? So.   The Dental A Team (22:48) Yeah, that's a great point. I totally agree.   Yeah, I love it.   Thank you, Kristy. ⁓ I think there's some great ideas in here. You guys know we did not give you the do this answer because it is really case by case. I mean that with every ounce of my being, it is dependent on what's going to work best for your company. If you want help diving into that, figuring out what might be best for you or your company model, we are more than happy to help you on a one-on-one basis. Reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We'll be happy to get on a call with you to dive into your practice statistics.   sticks and needs with you. Again, no, I don't have a do this, do that, but we can help you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we are so happy to help any of you guys. We are all here for it. We have a team standing by, always ready to hop on a call with you.   Kristy, thank you for your amazing words of wisdom and for your vulnerability. And we have more to record, you guys. We got more coming up for you. And we are just so excited to deliver you so much amazing content this month. Please drop us a five-star review below letting us know how helpful this was. If you have ideas, if you have things that you've done that worked or didn't work, send them in. You can put them within your review. People really do go through and read those. Or Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You can send them over to us and we'll be happy to   with you or put that information out for others to read as well. So go find us, Instagram, Facebook, all the places, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks guys.

MM

Al and Kev go through a list of 22 farming games Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:11: What Have We Been Up To 00:12:37: Game News 00:43:58: New Games 00:48:23: The 22 Best Steam Farming Games of all Time 01:33:28: Outro Links Whimside Herdling Ritual of Raven Abyss: New Dawn Star Birds Len’s Island “1.1” Update Disney Dreamlight Valley “Emotional Rescue” Update Overthrown “Coastal” Update Starsand Island Trailer Harvest Moon: Home Sweet Home Special Edition Infinity Nikki x Stardew Valley We Harvest Shadows Neverway The 22 Best Steam Farming Games of All Time Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season my name is al. (0:00:36) Kev: My name is Kevin and Al, you drop the ball, you miss the chance. (0:00:41) Kev: The way we should have started this week was, “Why is podcasting so hard?” (0:00:46) Al: Oh, disaster. Maybe we need to start that again. (0:00:49) Kev: Oh dear. (0:00:55) Kev: Yeah, it’s probably harder for Sakurai to make Kirby out. (0:00:59) Al: It’s true, though. But it’s not. It’s not true. It’s not hard. (0:01:06) Kev: AirRiders isn’t a podcast, probably. (0:01:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, that is true. Probably. Yeah, so we are here, as I said. (0:01:08) Kev: Well, that was a great direct. (0:01:16) Al: We’re gonna talk about Cuchco Games. Lots of Cuchco Games, because we have a list to talk about. (0:01:18) Kev: Yeah. (0:01:23) Al: There’s a list. Did I find this list? I found this list, didn’t I? This is a list on cozy game reviews (0:01:26) Kev: Yes, you did. (0:01:31) Al: of the 22 best Steam farming games of all time. Brackets updated for 2025. (0:01:38) Kev: What an apropos subject after last week’s episode. (0:01:44) Al: So we’re going to talk about that. (0:01:46) Al: Next we’re going to go through it and see if we agree because not only has it got them all listed, it says what they’re all best for. They’ve all got a specific thing that the writer thinks that they’re best for. (0:01:56) Kev: Which is a good move, um, well, you know, we’ll get to the list. We’ll get to the list. I like the list content (0:02:00) Al: It gives us something to talk about, so we’ll see how we go. (0:02:08) Al: Before that, we’ve got quite a lot of news. We’ll get into that soon, but first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:14) Kev: Oh, this is I’ve been thinking about this it’s been the hardest part for me to think about this week because I’ve been busy and not (0:02:22) Kev: a lot of the usuals (0:02:26) Kev: Let’s see here at battle can’t Sonic event finish, so I’m still playing but it’s it’s whatever (0:02:32) Kev: Pokemon unite is good (0:02:36) Kev: We had the world championships just last weekend, so we had announcements there (0:02:41) Kev: That was fun. I don’t even remember who it is now, but (0:02:45) Kev: Oh gosh, what is it? Oh, no, I have to look up the list (0:02:48) Kev: I don’t remember but I mean I’ve been playing it’s good the latte both lattes are out now (0:02:54) Kev: They’re pretty fun (0:02:55) Kev: Especially when you can actually play with someone and you can use them both because they so specifically designed to work with each other (0:03:03) Kev: So that’s pretty cool (0:03:07) Kev: But (0:03:08) Kev: Yeah, you know unite still play. It’s wild (0:03:12) Kev: We’re almost at a hundred playable Pokemon in the game (0:03:14) Kev: That’s wild to think (0:03:17) Kev: That’s like what almost 10% of the the techs (0:03:23) Kev: But but yeah, it’s been good. Oh gosh, I cannot (0:03:28) Kev: I don’t remember (0:03:32) Kev: Sorry, I was trying to Google it was stalled for talking but either way I’m playing unite it’s been good (0:03:39) Kev: Let’s see other than that, um, yeah, just a lot of the same as usual stuff. I’ve been playing (0:03:44) Kev: I picked up a new show now that I finished monk (0:03:48) Kev: Have you ever heard of dr. Quinn medicine woman now (0:03:54) Kev: Okay, so it is a show from the 90s it is (0:04:02) Kev: How should I put this frontier (0:04:05) Kev: Style American setting kind of like little house (0:04:06) Al: Okay, yeah. (0:04:09) Kev: But it’s a little more a little less saccharine (0:04:12) Kev: It is the titular character. (0:04:14) Kev: It is a female doctor, Dr. Quinn, which is, you know, given in that timeframe and setting, leads to a very different dynamic, right? (0:04:28) Kev: So yeah, it’s been enjoyable. I think it’s a little more “real” than, say, Little House or some of the other more… (0:04:42) Kev: Uh, I should… (0:04:45) Kev: It doesn’t paint over some of these details, so you know I’ve just been here enjoying a show about a (0:04:52) Kev: Trying to find a home and community (0:04:55) Kev: Despite the backdrop of a society where misogyny (0:05:00) Kev: bigotry racism et cetera are pretty strong, you know, I (0:05:06) Kev: Don’t know if that resonates with anyone, but you know (0:05:08) Al: Not at all, not at all. (0:05:11) Kev: So it’s been good (0:05:13) Kev: It is from the 90’s. (0:05:14) Kev: So it looks a little dated, um, and, and you can still feel the 90’s like hairstyles permeating the show though. (0:05:22) Kev: Um, but, uh, but, uh, but yeah, it’s been fun. (0:05:25) Kev: That’s Dr. (0:05:26) Kev: Quinn, medicine woman. (0:05:27) Kev: Like I said, just something to fill the, the show hole. (0:05:29) Kev: Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s roughly what I’ve been up to. (0:05:33) Kev: It’s been busy week. (0:05:34) Kev: I made it, I made like a two day, one day gone the next day back work trip this week. (0:05:39) Kev: That was wild. (0:05:40) Al: What have I been up to? (0:05:40) Kev: Um, yeah, so I’m tired. (0:05:42) Kev: What about you? (0:05:45) Al: I’m still playing Donkey Kong Bonanza, so it’s a long game. (0:05:50) Kev: All right (0:05:56) Kev: Yeah, it’s a lot of bananas to find (0:05:58) Al: It is a lot of bananas, yeah, I’ve put like maybe like 10 hours into it or something so (0:06:04) Al: far and I saw that there was a new world record put up today, so I went out to look at it (0:06:10) Al: and what I’ve done in that like 10 hours they did in 50 minutes, like oh goodness me, so (0:06:17) Al: I think I’ve got quite a lot of the game left to go because the world record is over four (0:06:21) Al: hours, so I’m maybe a quarter of the way through but that doesn’t feel right, but I don’t know. (0:06:29) Al: I did say, I think I said true endings, maybe that’s getting all the bananas, so maybe I’ve (0:06:33) Al: got, maybe I’m halfway, I might be about halfway through, we’ll see. (0:06:34) Kev: Hmm (0:06:37) Kev: Hmm have you done that art mode at all the the sculpting mode or whatever? (0:06:41) Al: I have not, no, I’ve not. (0:06:43) Kev: Okay, I’ve seen people do some crazy nonsense in them. That’s pretty cool (0:06:46) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I’m enjoying that, we’ll see how long that takes me, but this (0:06:57) Al: week I’ll probably be starting Story of Seasons Grand Bazaar, so who knows, how bizarre, so (0:07:02) Kev: How bizarre, how bizarre. (0:07:06) Al: I guess we’ll see a mate put down Donkey Kong for a bit. (0:07:10) Al: I think that’s pretty much it gaming wise. (0:07:17) Al: I’ve been catching up on a bunch of shows that I missed when I was on holiday, so I’ve (0:07:22) Al: just finished Sandman and it was good. (0:07:25) Kev: Oh, how was it? (0:07:28) Kev: Was it just weird? (0:07:30) Al: It was good if you can ignore the fact that it’s no gaming, then it’s good. (0:07:30) Kev: Okay. (0:07:34) Kev: Well, I feel like, you know, I feel like, in this day and age, (0:07:40) Kev: people get pretty good at that, if you just ignore the, you know, monster at the top. (0:07:42) Al: Well, yeah. Mm. So, yeah, no, that was good. And I think I’m going to watch Wednesday this (0:07:56) Al: week. So, yeah. (0:07:58) Kev: Oh, yeah, that’s all right. Okay. You know what you I assume you watch season one (0:08:05) Kev: Did you watch any Adams family prior to Wednesday (0:08:10) Kev: Okay, cuz I’m cuz I I’m a big fan of the animals family. Um, so I’m I had not watched Wednesday. So I’m curious how (0:08:17) Kev: That you know how it compares to the other relations, but alright (0:08:22) Kev: I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts. Anyways (0:08:26) Al: Yeah, I think that’s about it for me. (0:08:29) Al: Oh, no, I started on. (0:08:30) Al: So I’ve been watching through my mentions a couple of times. (0:08:33) Al: I’ve been watching through all the James Bond films. (0:08:35) Al: So I’m now on the Daniel Craig films. (0:08:37) Al: So on the home stretch nearly there. (0:08:40) Kev: Okay, okay, how is there any overall trends like they’re (0:08:44) Al: Hmm. So I don’t think there is like an upward or downward (0:08:46) Kev: Like better worse (0:08:51) Al: trend. They have like a good one followed by multiple terrible (0:08:53) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:08:55) Al: ones. I will say that one thing I’ve noticed watching them all (0:08:57) Kev: Yeah (0:09:01) Al: like we started in November. So we watched them all in the last (0:09:02) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:09:05) Al: nine months basically. One thing I’ve noticed is that they’re (0:09:06) Kev: Yeah (0:09:08) Al: all basically the same film. (0:09:10) Kev: Yeah (0:09:13) Kev: Now we’re talking oh (0:09:14) Al: So I mean, if you like that, then that’s good. I did get to the (0:09:17) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I mean (0:09:21) Al: point where we hit the, what’s his name? I’m so bad with the (0:09:29) Al: actor’s name sometimes. The Piers Brosnan ones. So we hit (0:09:32) Kev: » Yeah. (0:09:33) Al: 95 with GoldenEye. And I was like, oh, fantastic. We’re (0:09:34) Kev: » Yeah. (0:09:36) Al: finally, we’re finally getting out of the, you know, maybe we’ll (0:09:39) Al: get some bad baddie other than the USSR. And then I’m pretty (0:09:43) Kev: Yeah, yeah they do. (0:09:43) Al: pretty sure they go back in time. (0:09:44) Al: to make the USSR the baddie again. (0:09:49) Al: And then in the end, I would just watch Casino Royale and there’s a little bit (0:09:53) Al: where, where M goes, Oh, I wish we were, I wish we were back in the cold war. (0:09:57) Kev: Yeah, yeah, man, that’s that’s good stuff. Obviously, you and I is Nintendo, Pokemon, MCU fans, we can we can handle a whole lot of the same thing done over and over. But that’s that’s that’s fascinating. (0:09:59) Al: They really do miss that easy baddie. (0:10:05) Al: So yeah. (0:10:18) Al: - Yeah. (0:10:22) Al: I guess it’s different when you’re seeing the same thing (0:10:24) Al: every three years rather than every week. (0:10:27) Kev: Yeah, you know, that’s a good point. That’s a good point. But still, I mean, hey, you’re still trucking, you didn’t cause you to, to give up or die. So it’s because there’s at least something there. (0:10:38) Al: Yeah. Yeah, nearly there, nearly there, definitely. I’ve watched all the Daniel Craig ones as (0:10:44) Al: well, so I can’t officially say that I’ve watched every James Bond film. I just haven’t (0:10:48) Kev: Yeah (0:10:50) Al: watched these ones in a while, so. And Rona hasn’t seen the newest one, so. (0:10:51) Kev: Right, right (0:10:54) Kev: Okay, there you go. Hey congrats (0:10:57) Kev: Good stuff. Oh, I found the unite Pokemon. It’s sorry (0:11:04) Kev: Okay (0:11:05) Kev: We are getting Empoleon which sure starters always a safe choice. We are getting Vaporeon (0:11:13) Kev: Which means that the only Eevee evolutions we didn’t have were the original three. So we (0:11:18) Kev: Are now getting them that’s now confirming two other ones down the line (0:11:23) Kev: But most interestingly we are getting Delmise the (0:11:29) Kev: Living seaweed on an anchor. I’m excited about that. I like the freak pics. Delmise is a good freak pic (0:11:38) Al: Fun. Yeah. I look forward to seeing how Dalmay’s, you know, moves. (0:11:39) Kev: Yeah (0:11:43) Kev: Yeah, I’m just gonna flow it’s all just gonna flow (0:11:49) Kev: But yeah, oh well drags it drags itself (0:11:50) Al: You never know, should be something more interesting. (0:11:54) Al: Yeah, you just hear this scraping sound. (0:12:00) Kev: Oh, that’d be incredible. Oh my gosh (0:12:02) Al: Especially, I presume there’s no in-game chat, like audio chat in Unite. (0:12:08) Kev: Yeah, there is. There is a voice, yeah. (0:12:10) Al: Well there is, does it have, has it got, what’s it called, where you’re like, (0:12:15) Al: it changes depending on how close to the character you are. (0:12:18) Kev: Oh, proximity? No, it does not have proximity as far as I know. (0:12:19) Al: » Yeah. (0:12:20) Al: » That’d be brilliant. (0:12:21) Al: So if you could hear, like, the scraping come closer to you, that’d be brilliant. (0:12:22) Kev: The scraping. (0:12:28) Al: Feels like it’s something out of a horror film. (0:12:31) Kev: That’s incredible. Oh, I love dumb eyes. Oh, that’d be great. (0:12:38) Al: All right, should we get into some news? (0:12:41) Kev: Oh, you mean a lot of news. So much news. (0:12:43) Al: So, yeah, we have some games that have released (0:12:49) Al: that I completely missed when I was doing my catch-up (0:12:52) Al: of all the news in the break. (0:12:57) Al: So we’re just gonna quickly go through those. (0:12:59) Al: First up, we have Whimside, Whimside or Whimside. (0:13:03) Al: I don’t know how they want it to be said, (0:13:04) Al: but it’s one of those. (0:13:04) Kev: Yeah (0:13:06) Al: So that is out now. (0:13:08) Al: So a hoo to windside. (0:13:08) Kev: That’s (0:13:10) Kev: That’s the desk that’s your rusty like Pokemon collector (0:13:16) Al: Correct, yes. (0:13:17) Al: It’s a creature collector, the game that sits at the bottom of your screen, and fits easily (0:13:18) Kev: Which (0:13:22) Al: into your routine. (0:13:23) Kev: It looks kind of in-depth I don’t want to use it as a you know thing on the side (0:13:28) Kev: But I am kind of interested to just play get (0:13:32) Al: Yeah. It has 194 reviews so far, very positive 85%. So that’s good. (0:13:39) Kev: some look some of those were also just pokemon there was just a squirtle in in that trailer (0:13:46) Al: Well Squirtle is just a blue turtle, so come on. Next we have Herdling, they are also out now, (0:13:49) Kev: it is you’re not wrong yeah that’s true (0:13:56) Al: came out on the 21st of August, that one wasn’t one that I missed because it’s only just out. (0:13:56) Kev: they nope that just came out that’s (0:14:01) Al: So that is the you’re gathering a herd of mysterious creatures on a stirring and beautiful (0:14:07) Al: journey into the mountains. And this is published by Panic, they’re… (0:14:08) Kev: It’s Journey, the game Journey, but cows. (0:14:16) Al: the Untitled Goose Game people and also the… (0:14:22) Kev: Wow, that looks nothing like a criminal ghost game. A publisher? Okay, okay. (0:14:25) Al: No, well they’re just the publisher, they didn’t they didn’t write the game, but they’ve (0:14:33) Al: Panic are also the they’ve turned into a publisher as well. But they’re also the, and I’m just trying (0:14:41) Al: to remember the name of it. Nope, nope. (0:14:42) Kev: one game give me a hint is it stray oh oh my goodness wow these guys are heroes (0:14:47) Al: In our game the Playdate, the console, they also did the console. (0:14:54) Kev: hurdling exclusive to the play date or with the tool exclusive to the play date where you use the (0:15:00) Kev: crank to herd the cows uh oh okay yeah so these guys are (0:15:01) Al: Oh, they did fire watch as well. (0:15:12) Kev: gonna publish weird things that’s cool good for them i’m actually more interested in hurdling now (0:15:20) Kev: now that I have this I mean not that the publisher just the developer or whatever you know but uh (0:15:22) Al: Yeah, I (0:15:26) Al: Yeah, but I mean a publisher tells you something especially when they’ve only published like 10 games or something so (0:15:32) Al: It’s not like they’re throwing them out there. They’re taking anything that comes (0:15:36) Al: unlike some other games publishers (0:15:38) Kev: But (0:15:39) Al: But yeah, I mean it looks much more kind of fire watchy than it does anything else in terms of it’s because obviously fire watch is (0:15:44) Kev: Yeah (0:15:46) Al: much more (0:15:47) Al: straight and serious and (0:15:49) Kev: Yeah (0:15:50) Al: and they look. (0:15:52) Al: kind of meditative, almost. (0:15:53) Kev: Yeah (0:15:55) Kev: Yeah, it’s not yeah, that’s a good way of describing it right very Zen sort of thing (0:16:00) Kev: Just walking with some cows up a mountain (0:16:00) Al: Hmm. Big haticos. (0:16:05) Kev: The character even wears red like the journey (0:16:08) Kev: Character with the scar. It’s fine. Journey is a good game (0:16:14) Al: Next we have a ritual of Raven, which is also out now. (0:16:20) Al: So this is an isometric, story-based farming game. (0:16:26) Kev: cards, lots of cards, everywhere. I don’t understand the mechanics. Do you farm (0:16:34) Kev: with cards? It kind of looked like that. (0:16:38) Al: Yeah, I think so. I think you use the cards to create spells because you’re awake (0:16:43) Kev: okay right let’s see enchant constructs to help grow herbs and ingredients to help you complete (0:16:49) Kev: your book of shadows using the mystical deck of cards you’ll be able to enchant constructs to (0:16:54) Kev: plows plow sow seeds water and harvest them for you collect all 22 constructs and create thriving (0:17:01) Kev: herb garden um so yeah looks like you do use the cards to make stuff to farm that’s kind of (0:17:08) Al: Yeah. Yup, so that’s out now. Next, we have Abyss New Dawn. This is out in early access now. (0:17:17) Al: I think they had a delay. Are these the ones that delayed the game? They were meant to come (0:17:24) Al: out and then they were like, “Oh no, we’ve got an issue.” There we go. This is the one. Abyss (0:17:26) Kev: Did I lose the button, too? (0:17:31) Al: New Dawn release may be delayed by a few days. During Steam’s review process, our latest build (0:17:36) Al: was rejected due to a technical issue of three achievements. (0:17:38) Al: We’ve already fixed or submitted the build for approval. Steam usually takes three to (0:17:43) Al: five days for the review, so the release date may be delayed until August 25th. It was not. (0:17:48) Al: It ended up releasing Friday 22nd, so I don’t think it was delayed at all, but they thought it might be. (0:17:49) Kev: Yeah, um, so this, first of all, I hate. (0:18:02) Al: Oh yes, this is a warm village above a deadly abyss below. Will you farm in peace or dive in? (0:18:10) Kev: Okay, so first of all, I hate that name, like good heavens what an awful name, just like, it’s just so generic, it doesn’t tell you anything, um… (0:18:14) Al: Yes, also it feels like it’s the second in a series. This is the sequel to Abyss. It’s (0:18:24) Al: Abyss New Dawn. But I don’t think that’s the case. It is not the case. (0:18:25) Kev: yeah yeah okay this is gonna sound kind of weird this this game doesn’t look (0:18:34) Kev: like it was AI generated but it looks like the concept was generated concept (0:18:40) Kev: because it feels like it has so much going on like all these hallmarks you’ve (0:18:44) Kev: got Animal Crossing as characters you got farming you got fishing (0:18:49) Kev: customization and then the abyss the abyss is actually just dinosaurs it’s (0:18:54) Kev: It’s just a dinosaur world. (0:18:55) Kev: I don’t know. It looks well made. It’s a tough market out here. (0:19:04) Kev: That’s all. (0:19:04) Al: Yeah, I’m not seeing anything make me want to play this. (0:19:06) Kev: No, as much as I love dinosaurs, I’d rather play paleopine. (0:19:13) Kev: I would, I’m not trying to entertain them. (0:19:16) Al: Yeah, do you want to fight dinosaurs or do you want to tame them? That’s the question. (0:19:21) Kev: Also, so they have the Animal Crossing decorate your house because, of course. (0:19:25) Kev: The one question I don’t see, and I think this is a big problem a lot of games have, (0:19:30) Kev: can you actually use the furniture? Can you sit in the couch or lying in the bed? (0:19:36) Kev: Because that kills me when you can’t, and a lot of games do it. But anyways, yeah. (0:19:43) Kev: Bismuthon, that’s early access. I probably won’t play it. Bite Slime, that’s in the video. (0:19:55) Kev: Not fight slimes or anything, just fight slime singular. Or the general concept of slime, I guess. (0:20:05) Al: Yeah, yeah, I don’t I’m not excited to to play this let’s put it that way (0:20:11) Kev: I’m not either (0:20:14) Al: All right moving on to something I am excited to play (0:20:17) Kev: Okay, okay, I tried (0:20:18) Al: Starbirds (0:20:20) Kev: Okay, let’s see here. So I tried looking at this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Remember this one now. Yeah. Yeah (0:20:21) Al: Starbirds (0:20:24) Al: So so starbirds have announced that the their early access is releasing on the 4th of September. So just to (0:20:33) Al: So, remind people. (0:20:35) Al: This is the game made by the people who did Dorph Romantic, and it is based on the YouTube channel Kurtzkazat in a nutshell. (0:20:49) Al: They do science-based videos, very interesting videos, all very meticulously researched and stuff. (0:20:56) Al: And this is in their art style, and it is an asteroid-based building and resource management game. (0:21:03) Kev: yeah that yeah it’s it’s um it’s a lot those are a lot of words but the good the game the game looks (0:21:08) Al: You know Dorph Romantic, right? You know the game. You don’t know Dorph romantic. You would (0:21:10) Kev: good I don’t want to like I don’t actually no no hold on (0:21:16) Al: you definitely recognize it if you clicked on it. Click through to the developer on Steam (0:21:20) Al: and click on Dorph romantic. It’s a really record. It’s kind of it’s got the like tiles (0:21:25) Al: like the hexagon tiles and it’s it’s like a building puzzle game. Yeah, it’s pretty (0:21:31) Kev: That is that is just settlers of Katon the game (0:21:37) Al: it, it, it, it pretty much. (0:21:38) Al: Um, but it’s single player, I think, um, it’s got 15,000 overwhelmingly positive reviews. (0:21:40) Kev: Sure sure (0:21:46) Al: It’s a very big game, they’re romantic. (0:21:47) Kev: Oh, I’m sure okay, is it good to have you played it? (0:21:53) Al: I haven’t played it, but I mean, there’s overwhelmingly positive on the Rivens team. (0:21:58) Kev: That’s true well (0:21:59) Al: So like people like it. (0:22:01) Kev: I guess so that’s true (0:22:02) Al: It’s not, I’m not, I’m not the biggest management game guy. (0:22:06) Kev: Yeah, that is true (0:22:08) Kev: So I’m also okay for starboard. So it is very heavy on the management. You have networks of cables and roads and flow (0:22:16) Kev: But I think the art style is very charming (0:22:19) Kev: very cartoony (0:22:20) Al: What I like about it as well is it’s very small scale. (0:22:24) Al: So I think one of my issues with management games is, (0:22:27) Al: here’s an infinite canvas, make something. (0:22:31) Kev: Yeah. Mine it. (0:22:31) Al: And you’re like, but maybe I don’t want to. (0:22:33) Al: And what this does is it goes, here’s a mini asteroid. (0:22:36) Al: Mine it. (0:22:37) Al: And then those all connect together eventually. (0:22:40) Al: And so it does create this bigger thing, (0:22:41) Al: but it’s like much smaller scale at the start. (0:22:44) Kev: Very piecewise. Yeah. Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Yeah, I think that’s cool too. Very (0:22:44) Al: I like, yeah. (0:22:51) Kev: Like discrete as in with the E at the end (0:22:56) Kev: Discrete units of (0:22:59) Kev: Resource management and then you connect them all together for a bigger network. I like it. That’s a fun idea (0:23:06) Kev: Also your birds I (0:23:08) Kev: Like I like to parrot a toucan. I don’t know what bird that is. Looks like it has a toucan beak but parrot (0:23:14) Kev: So I’m not sure I like that bird (0:23:16) Al: Alrighty, so that yeah, that’s 4th of September that comes out, Starbirds. (0:23:21) Kev: That’s sooner than it should be. Oh, where did all this go? Jeez (0:23:28) Al: Yeah, that’s two weeks away, less than two weeks away. (0:23:30) Al: That’s a week and a half away. (0:23:30) Al: That’ll be a week away when this game episode comes out. (0:23:32) Al: Alrighty, next we have Lens Island. (0:23:36) Al: They’ve released their 1.1 update. (0:23:38) Al: That is out now. (0:23:40) Al: That includes, it is the community feedback update. (0:23:42) Al: update. It brings a bunch of changes such as free (0:23:46) Al: camera orbiting. Okay, junk loading settings and performance (0:23:51) Al: boost, you can change how far away you can see things, which (0:23:54) Al: is really cool. If you’ve got like, a really good computer, (0:23:57) Al: you can see islands miles away in the distance. I really like (0:24:00) Al: that because yeah, that’s really nice. Increased performance of (0:24:05) Al: spending farms always good. A sorting button for storage items (0:24:09) Al: should have been there in 1.0. Edit constructions with new move (0:24:13) Al: button. The move button should have been 1.0. When Earth was (0:24:16) Al: this was one of the things I complained about in the in my (0:24:16) Kev: Yup. (0:24:18) Al: review of it. Why on earth? Why on earth did I have to delete (0:24:20) Kev: Yup. (0:24:21) Al: something and recreate it? So silly. You did at least when you (0:24:22) Kev: Yup. (0:24:25) Al: recycled something, you got all the materials back. So you (0:24:26) Kev: Right, right, right. (0:24:27) Al: didn’t waste anything. But it’s just still such an annoying (0:24:30) Kev: Yeah, I agree. Like, I feel like almost every game that has you, you know, building constructs or buildings or whatever should have this feature. (0:24:38) Kev: And a lot of them don’t. A lot of, I don’t know why. (0:24:42) Al: Yeah, another thing that should have been in there is the crop status UI, so if you hover over a crop, you can see whether it’s ready to harvest or not, which is good. (0:24:52) Kev: That seems important. (0:24:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, I found it later on. So after the podcast, I read that I found out that you can craft a scythe, and if you use the site that only gets rid of things that are harvestable, but before that, you just have to guess. (0:25:05) Kev: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Good good (0:25:12) Al: So you can create a new companion, the black bear, so you can get an animal black bear companion. (0:25:18) Kev: Now this I like just because I like bears in general good good for you. He added a bear (0:25:24) Al: Yeah, yeah, I think I’m probably gonna stick with my dog. I like my dog, but (0:25:26) Kev: Can you pet the bear? (0:25:30) Kev: Yeah (0:25:31) Al: There’s tempting (0:25:35) Kev: I’m tempted. I don’t play this game. But if I did I’d get a bear (0:25:39) Al: Haha, I (0:25:42) Al: Haven’t played it for a few weeks (0:25:43) Al: But I will hopefully get back into it at some point the problem is this is the one that I have to play on my (0:25:48) Al: computer with my mouse and keyboard, so you know and (0:25:53) Al: Next we have Disney Dream. (0:25:54) Al: I’m just going to say a new episode. (0:25:56) Kev: What property is it today or this time? (0:26:01) Al: This is the emotional rescue update. (0:26:04) Al: Let’s see. (0:26:06) Al: Joy and sadness. (0:26:08) Al: You’ve got, so there we go. (0:26:10) Al: We’ve got inside out, that’s what it’s called. (0:26:11) Kev: Inside out as in joy and sadness TM, but the capital letters (0:26:19) Kev: That (0:26:21) Kev: How should I put this like this is a (0:26:25) Kev: complete nonsensical like (0:26:28) Kev: There’s no logic in this world because it’s just whatever cartoons (0:26:33) Kev: but it (0:26:34) Kev: But despite that, I don’t know it feels weird that you can hang out with you know (0:26:40) Kev: and psychological constructs. (0:26:41) Kev: You win. You know, the rest of the guys are actual lions or dogs or people. (0:26:48) Kev: But, whatever. I liked Inside Out. I didn’t see Inside Out, too. (0:26:53) Kev: Inside Out, first one, was a good movie. (0:26:55) Al: I enjoy, I think Inside Out 2 was just as good if not better than Inside Out 1. (0:27:00) Kev: Ooh! Ooh! That’s interesting. I’ll have to check that out. (0:27:03) Al: It’s very good. I think that so many sequels, I understand why people get frustrated with them, (0:27:09) Al: but I think Inside Out was not, I mean, whether it was a cash grab or not, I don’t care, right? (0:27:15) Al: Like it doesn’t feel like a cash grab, it feels like a continuation of the story in good and better (0:27:15) Kev: Yeah (0:27:20) Kev: Sure, I mean (0:27:22) Al: ways, right? Like it’s, it takes the concept. (0:27:23) Kev: Yeah (0:27:25) Al: And it goes further with it in a way that can completely break you. (0:27:27) Kev: Yeah (0:27:30) Kev: Sure sure, I mean, yeah, okay, it’s not (0:27:34) Kev: It’s difficult but being a cash grab and being an excellent sequel are not mutually exclusive (0:27:40) Al: Exactly. (0:27:41) Kev: Um, just very, very rare, but, but it is, it, it’s theoretically. (0:27:45) Kev: Possible. So sure. Um, okay. I, I have one question from the sequel. (0:27:50) Kev: Okay. So you remember in the first movie, you, sometimes you see the, (0:27:55) Kev: the minds of other people, the parents or whatever, (0:27:57) Kev: and they have the five emotions. (0:27:58) Al: Yes. No. Explain why they weren’t there with the main character who I can’t remember the (0:27:59) Kev: Do they explain why all these other emotions weren’t there? No. (0:28:05) Kev: Darn it. Darn it. (0:28:11) Al: name of, but not why the new ones wouldn’t be in Riley, that’s the name, yeah, but why (0:28:13) Kev: Riley. (0:28:16) Kev: Yeah. Darn it. That’s fine. That’s fine. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean, (0:28:16) Al: they wouldn’t be in the other ones. No, they don’t explain that. No, they do explain why (0:28:21) Kev: it makes sense that you get new emotions as you get older. (0:28:23) Al: why they’re not in Riley. (0:28:25) Kev: You get, you know, more nuanced. It’s totally makes sense. (0:28:28) Al: Yeah, the metaphors are both fun and painful. (0:28:35) Kev: Now you say, is it painful? Cause it’s too real. (0:28:38) Kev: Is that what it is? Oh, yeah. (0:28:42) Kev: Oh, yeah. (0:28:42) Al: a little bit yeah you’re a big anxiety boy aren’t you yeah yeah then then then yeah (0:28:45) Kev: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, yeah. (0:28:52) Al: watch it but but watch it on an emotionally stable day (0:28:52) Kev: Oh, oh, so it can be so that was so the rest of your day can be emotionally unstable. (0:28:58) Al: or you know semi-emotionally stable (0:29:08) Al: no I think I think it’s one of those ones where it will break you but in a healing way (0:29:12) Kev: Sure, sure. (0:29:13) Al: you know like therapy you know you go into therapy and sometimes you come out crying (0:29:14) Kev: Yeah, no, I get that. (0:29:16) Kev: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:29:18) Al: but also you feel better in some ways as well it’s kind of like that (0:29:22) Kev: Yeah, I get that. (0:29:22) Kev: Yeah, no, I know what you mean. (0:29:24) Kev: I mean, like, like the first one, the shocker. (0:29:26) Al: not that watching watching films obviously important to note watching films is not a (0:29:30) Al: suitable alternative to therapy do therapy please and thank you (0:29:34) Kev: Yeah, that’s that’s a good thing to do that (0:29:36) Al: if you can if you can afford it if you can’t talk to your friends (0:29:38) Kev: You go go or (0:29:42) Kev: Okay, yeah, here’s my my PSA helpful hint for the day (0:29:46) Kev: I always always recommend because therapy can be very expensive, right? (0:29:52) Kev: Especially on the states where we have to deal with you know medical insurance and yada yada (0:29:57) Kev: If you find that to be a challenge go seek out your nearest University (0:30:02) Kev: They may have a clinic with students. (0:30:04) Kev: They may have a clinic with students in training to be full psychologist/counsellors, which is usually generally affordable. (0:30:06) Al: Hmm. (0:30:10) Kev: Or they can make it affordable. (0:30:13) Kev: And it’s pretty okay because they still are supervised by actual, you know, fully certified therapists and whatnot. (0:30:20) Kev: So, yeah, go look at your local university. (0:30:24) Kev: Anyway, so that’s Disney Dreamlight Valley! (0:30:30) Al: - Yes, that’s Disney Dreamland Valley, go to therapy. (0:30:37) Al: Next, we have Overthrown, (0:30:39) Al: they have released a coastal update. (0:30:42) Kev: Okay. (0:30:42) Al: So that includes some coastal related things. (0:30:45) Kev: Okay, so I saw that and my first question was what is overthrown? I did not remember this game at all. (0:30:50) Al: This is the one where you can like pick up the sawmill (0:30:54) Al: and throw it at trees and it’ll turn the trees (0:30:56) Al: into planks of wood, stuff like that. (0:30:58) Kev: Yeah, which is (0:30:59) Al: It’s like the. (0:31:02) Kev: The very it’s very cool concept to be honest I saw it (0:31:07) Al: and you can also in their ritual run. (0:31:08) Kev: Yeah, you are not running across water and everything (0:31:13) Kev: And it’s multiple. It’s it’s chaotic and and boy that that main character (0:31:18) Kev: They’re the default design or whatever that is a breath of the wild outfit. That is blue link blue (0:31:24) Al: Yeah, fair. (0:31:27) Kev: But but it’s fine (0:31:28) Kev: What a wild goofy game (0:31:30) Kev: What a novel idea to pick up the sawmill and chop down the whole forest by running with it (0:31:37) Kev: We’re throwing buildings at the invaders that’s good stuff. I like that. That’s fun (0:31:43) Kev: Coastal I like coastal stuff you can throw pirate ship now (0:31:46) Al: All right, next we have Starsand Island have released a trailer for the game. (0:31:54) Al: Have you watched it yet, Kevin? (0:31:56) Kev: let me see which one is this no this is not the hold on there’s a lot of games (0:32:03) Kev: trying to merge one this isn’t the allegory allegory game (0:32:08) Kev: yeah no we’ll get to that later oh gosh I missed this one I was going through (0:32:15) Kev: the doc and it’s this one actually let me see here live reaction okay those are (0:32:20) Kev: pretty graphics hate the name of course goes without saying oh that’s anime that (0:32:25) Kev: That is some anime. (0:32:27) Kev: Uhm, okay, a lot of customization, farming, cat, ooh, is that an arcade? Actual arcade? (0:32:34) Kev: Why is it always snake? They always be, “Oh, you’re right, on a deer there’s some pandas, and a bamboo raft, so we can go build your aquarium.” (0:32:45) Kev: Oh, I kind of remember, yeah, I remember this, build the house, 3D spirit favor house, yeah, yeah, yeah, water slide into the ocean. (0:32:53) Kev: There’s a lot of stuff. (0:32:56) Kev: Yeah, build your 3D Animal Crossing Spiritfare pool party house. (0:33:03) Kev: Okay, that’s… (0:33:05) Al: I feel like this game is either going to be another Stardew Valley like a big really popular (0:33:12) Al: really good farming game or it’s Sugardew Island again and I can’t tell which like I (0:33:14) Kev: Yeah, there is a metal ground, you don’t think so? I kind of, I mean, I mean, you have reason (0:33:19) Al: don’t think there’s going to be a middle here I don’t know for this game like there are (0:33:25) Al: many games in the middle ground I don’t think this one can be in the middle ground it’s (0:33:29) Al: one or the other like it might be that this game is entirely fake I’m still not convinced (0:33:37) Kev: to believe that there’s a guy playing guitar with ostriches and sheep, there’s backup dancers. (0:33:43) Kev: That’s… (0:33:46) Kev: I like that. I don’t know if it’s real. (0:33:48) Al: you can get a boat with a water slide (0:33:48) Kev: But… (0:33:50) Kev: Into the ocean. (0:33:53) Al: for some reason. I’m so confused about the boat. Where’s the boat? (0:33:54) Kev: Yeah. (0:33:59) Al: Like, am I riding the boat somewhere? Because I can customize the boat, (0:34:03) Kev: Yeah, it makes you think like it’s your main base, but they show you a room. Yeah, you (0:34:03) Al: right? But it’s not. You’ve got a farm. (0:34:10) Al: So what is this? Why is this boat? Is it from traveling places or is it just a (0:34:13) Al: second home? Why was I going down the slide in (0:34:15) Kev: Probably (0:34:17) Al: might feel soon. (0:34:19) Al: So many questions. (0:34:20) Kev: There’s a lot of questions what why are you writing a legendary Pokemon not the ostrich the deer one (0:34:26) Al: And an ostrich. (0:34:29) Al: Yeah, I know I saw the deal, but the ostrich definitely looks (0:34:32) Al: fine. I would ride an ostrich. That sounds fun. (0:34:33) Kev: I (0:34:34) Al: Also, there’s a baby chick on the ostriches head for some reason. (0:34:37) Kev: It does something, you know us oh, yeah, there are there is chick. Oh, I think you customize the ostrich (0:34:44) Kev: I see one the flower too. I don’t know (0:34:46) Al: There’s a snake minigame where instead of a snake, you’re a capybara. (0:34:50) Kev: Which is I don’t like that concept I (0:34:54) Kev: Don’t like yeah, no or rather the the cap of the air gets longer. No, I don’t get that (0:34:54) Al: Of a long capybara. (0:35:03) Al: Oh, you’re fine with a long capybara just as long as it stays the same length. (0:35:04) Kev: You (0:35:06) Kev: Yes, I don’t I don’t like yes, it’s the increase here that’s making me uncomfortable but (0:35:06) Al: Is that what you’re saying? (0:35:13) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:35:15) Kev: It’s a wild game. I (0:35:18) Kev: Don’t know (0:35:20) Kev: it looks real enough, but (0:35:24) Kev: You can put a carousel in the middle of your boat (0:35:28) Kev: It’s wild. I (0:35:30) Kev: I don’t know what what is the point of all I like. (0:35:33) Kev: What is the impetus here? Why do you write ostriches? I don’t get it. (0:35:37) Al: You get round fast, obviously. Come on. (0:35:39) Kev: Yeah, you know, apparently writing ostriches is incredibly dangerous in real life. (0:35:45) Al: Well yeah, obviously. They’re terrifying birds. (0:35:46) Kev: Yeah, yeah, but like, yeah, they are. (0:35:52) Kev: I like them, though. Anyways, I mean, it it has caught my attention (0:35:57) Kev: just because it’s it’s I don’t know what to make of it. (0:36:03) Kev: It hasn’t it hasn’t put me off. (0:36:06) Kev: So good for you, Star Santa, even with the name, you’ve you’ve caught my attention (0:36:11) Kev: to a degree, Star Santa Island. (0:36:13) Al: I also worry that there might just be too much in this game, that’s always a problem (0:36:17) Al: with these games. (0:36:18) Kev: You know, it feels like that’s kind of a recurring theme these days. (0:36:23) Kev: Like they’re just do stardew, but bigger or add more and bloat and bloat and oh, (0:36:34) Al: Well, we’ll see. We will keep you posted on this game. (0:36:38) Kev: We’re obligated to. (0:36:42) Al: Next, we have Harvest Moon Home Sweet Home Special Edition. (0:36:47) Al: So this is the console version of this game for Switch and PS5. (0:36:53) Al: We now have a price. It is $40 and it’s up for pre-order now coming out Q4. (0:37:00) Kev: It’s… we all know what it is. It’s the harvest moon. The Natsume… (0:37:10) Kev: Well, I’m not gonna get it, I’ll be honest. (0:37:13) Al: That’s fair. I will say, I still think this is actively a good game. My big question is, (0:37:22) Al: is there going to be an update coming to the mobile version that gives us the stuff that (0:37:26) Kev: Hmm (0:37:28) Al: this version has, like the hover bike and stuff like that? (0:37:31) Kev: I I wouldn’t rule it out. Not something has been surprising us lately. So maybe actually it’s more than 0% chance (0:37:34) Al: Yep, I never expected an update for this game. (0:37:43) Al: On the console to give us controller support, for example, never expected that and we got (0:37:48) Al: it. So maybe, maybe, but it’s weird that they’ve not done anything about it, like told us anything (0:37:55) Al: about it yet. (0:37:58) Kev: Well, it’s better than scong than in the communication. (0:38:02) Al: Next we have in what is both surprising and not surprising crossovers, like was this on (0:38:09) Kev: I (0:38:12) Al: your bingo guard of crossovers? (0:38:13) Kev: Well, no because (0:38:14) Al: No, but if you said, if you told me this was going to happen, I would say, okay, sure, (0:38:19) Al: I can see that. (0:38:21) Al: And that is Infinity Nicki cross Stardew Valley. (0:38:21) Kev: I. Okay, so to begin with, I was not familiar with Infinity Nicky. So that was my first (0:38:31) Kev: response. What is Infinity Nicky? I watched a I watched the trailer. I watched a gameplay (0:38:32) Al: This is the dressing up game, isn’t it? (0:38:39) Kev: trailer. I still don’t understand what this game is. Yeah, but it’s also gotcha. (0:38:42) Al: I’m pretty sure this is the, uh, yes, it’s the dress up game. (0:38:47) Al: So the whole point it’s, yes, it’s a gacha great dressing up game. (0:38:51) Al: So the collaboration is in Infinity Nikki. (0:38:54) Kev: very anime. Yeah. (0:38:57) Al: It’s not in Stardew Valley. (0:38:59) Al: Um, but I don’t think we know for certain, I’ve not, I didn’t notice (0:39:03) Al: anything in the trailer that gave us an indication as to what it was, but (0:39:05) Al: I’m guessing it’s Stardew inspired outfits in Infinity. (0:39:10) Kev: I thought that 3D… still pixelated, but 3D Junimo was in the game. (0:39:17) Al: Yeah, I think that’s just, this is the trailer. I don’t think that actually is going to… (0:39:20) Kev: Are you sure? Mmm… (0:39:23) Kev: I don’t know. I kind of feel like it is. It felt very… (0:39:26) Kev: That was a very detailed model for just a trailer, in my opinion. (0:39:31) Kev: There’s creatures for, to some extent, in this game. I don’t know what they do. (0:39:36) Kev: But… yeah, I don’t know. (0:39:40) Kev: But regardless, like… (0:39:44) Kev: It’s… (0:39:45) Kev: First of all, it’s… (0:39:47) Kev: It’s so many other Stardew crossovers. (0:39:49) Kev: Like, it’s, you know, 2D pixelated, indie developer, whatever, right? (0:39:54) Kev: Like, it’s kind of on the same realm as Stardew. (0:39:58) Kev: Uh, Infinity Nicky is a very high-fidelity, 3D anime, mohoyo-looking game. (0:40:09) Kev: And so it’s wild to see. (0:40:10) Kev: We started getting upgraded, like just visually, you know, up to that level. (0:40:17) Al: Oh, here’s interesting. So, apparently, Infiniti Nikkei is getting updated to have (0:40:23) Al: homes. Apparently, he didn’t have homes before. And farming. (0:40:27) Kev: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s correct. I do I did see that (0:40:32) Al: So, that’s interesting. (0:40:34) Kev: And well, there’s your there’s your Avenue (0:40:36) Kev: What what a get for this infinity Nikki go for the big one and I’ll start it to introduce your new home (0:40:44) Kev: Farming update with it (0:40:47) Kev: Yeah, this this whole thing is wild apparently so the internet thought so too (0:40:52) Al: Yes, so just to clarify, I think this article is mostly clickbait, but I wanted to just (0:40:58) Kev: Yeah, I agree (0:41:00) Al: have a quick chat about it. So this is a random article on a random site. Stardew Valley creator (0:41:05) Al: defends free Infinity Nikki crossover after backlash as he genuinely thought the players (0:41:11) Al: would like it. So I don’t think he’s actually responding to complaints about the fact that (0:41:17) Al: this exists. The quote comes from a tweet where he says there have (0:41:22) Al: been a few collaborations between Stardew Valley and other games over the years. To (0:41:27) Al: be clear, I never received any money from these collabs. I’ve only done them because (0:41:31) Al: I was a fan of the other games or because I genuinely thought the players would like (0:41:34) Al: it. That is not like the headline definitely makes it sound like he’s specifically talking (0:41:40) Al: about this collab. And he and he’s like making it makes it sound like it’s going, Oh, I’m (0:41:44) Al: really sad. People don’t like it. I genuinely thought the players would like it. Like that (0:41:48) Al: doesn’t seem to be the case. And if you look in the YouTube comments for this video, like (0:41:52) Al: it is mostly positive and or mostly just like shock in general, right? (0:41:56) Kev: Uh (0:41:58) Kev: I I don’t know because the (0:42:01) Kev: concern they tweeted is uh (0:42:03) Kev: Just a couple days ago, um right around the time of the trailer dropping (0:42:08) Kev: So I think he might be obviously he’s getting (0:42:11) Kev: He has a lot of people that follow him and send him comments and stuff. So (0:42:16) Kev: he I suspect there was a (0:42:19) Kev: Maybe not a large but you know how these things are a vocal minority of people (0:42:24) Kev: Who complained about this because (0:42:26) Kev: I can see the logic right concerned a star do we that’s a success right he’s (0:42:32) Kev: already getting success from stardew and now he’s collabing with the gotcha game (0:42:37) Kev: which is probably making insane boatloads of money because gotcha games (0:42:41) Kev: that’s what they do so oh look at that and see now he’s collaborating with big (0:42:42) Al: Yeah. Yeah, so well, so yeah, so my I suspect it was a small number of people who are like, oh, (0:42:54) Al: I can’t believe he’s doing this, he must just be getting a bunch of money. And so he’s like, (0:42:57) Al: no, no, I’m not getting money. And that’s all he really cared about doing, right? That’s because (0:43:00) Kev: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. (0:43:01) Al: that’s really all he said is, I don’t get money from the collabs, play it or don’t, I don’t care. (0:43:02) Kev: Yeah. (0:43:06) Kev: Yeah, pretty much. (0:43:06) Al: Right? Like, I think these are fun. And that’s basically what he’s saying, which is a fair thing (0:43:11) Al: to… to point out. I just… (0:43:12) Al: feel like this then article just takes it as like this stupid over the top forced to apologize (0:43:20) Al: because it you know it’s just like oh my word gonna know and then of course I’m playing into (0:43:20) Kev: yeah yep and then and then QS I think the 3d dream was part of it I’m still (0:43:24) Al: that by talking about it. I’m still not sure what this collab actually is as well but it (0:43:34) Kev: I’m standing by that (0:43:35) Al: we’ll see. Well I think it’ll just be inspired designs but we will see. (0:43:40) Kev: yeah I don’t know how should I put this it’s wild to me that started concerned (0:43:48) Kev: I knew what this game was from what I’ve seen. (0:43:50) Kev: in other interviews he seems a little out of touch with the gamesphere but here we are (0:43:54) Al: Yeah, maybe. All right, to finish off the news, we have two new games to talk about, (0:44:03) Al: and I don’t know why, but this is apparently horror time. One of them is called We Harvest (0:44:10) Al: Shadows, a single-player first-person farming horror allegory, (0:44:14) Al: become a recluse, build up your farm, and survive the lonely nights. (0:44:18) Kev: Yeah, this is what I said was the allegory game, um, yeah, um, this is, this is just straight (0:44:21) Al: All right. Okay. There we go. (0:44:26) Kev: horror. (0:44:27) Kev: There is no cozy here. (0:44:29) Kev: Um, it’s full 3D, first person, spooky lighting, you know, uh, run down shack you’re living (0:44:38) Kev: in. (0:44:39) Kev: You are leading a lamb to a sacrifice, it looks like, I don’t like that. (0:44:45) Kev: Um, okay. (0:44:48) Kev: I hate about, um, not just games, but like, I hate when anything describes itself as an (0:44:56) Kev: allegory or allegory, excuse me, um, uh, because like, that kind of defeats the point. (0:44:58) Al: Yeah. (0:45:04) Kev: You know, you should be able to figure it out. (0:45:04) Al: Yeah. Also, an allegory to what, right? Like, you can’t just say that. (0:45:06) Kev: And the worst part, exactly, right? (0:45:09) Kev: Exactly. (0:45:10) Kev: If you’re gonna tell me, okay, what is it for? (0:45:13) Kev: Tell me. (0:45:14) Kev: Right? (0:45:15) Kev: If you’re going to be, you know, maybe you’re inspired off. (0:45:18) Kev: Something or give me a general idea. (0:45:20) Kev: I guess I can get it, but, but you’re just okay. (0:45:25) Kev: Why were you telling me you’re, you mean something? (0:45:28) Kev: That’s like, this game has thoughts. (0:45:31) Kev: This game has emotions. (0:45:32) Kev: Okay, good for you. (0:45:34) Kev: I would hope your game does, but yeah, it’s very bizarre. (0:45:37) Al: Yeah, what am I meant to do with this information? Right? Bizarre. (0:45:44) Al: Oh my word, those creatures are horrifying. Sorry, (0:45:44) Kev: But anyways, the game itself… (0:45:46) Al: I was just watching the end of the trailer and just got jump scared from that horrible creature. (0:45:48) Kev: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that said, I was about to say that exactly, the it is very just straight horror, those are Resident Evil-esque looking creatures at the end of that trailer. (0:46:00) Kev: Um, and you got a shotgun, and I don’t know what you’re supposed to survive, and you’re still farming somehow, apparently. (0:46:08) Kev: Um, yeah, I’m generally not a big horror, like straight horror. (0:46:10) Al: Obviously. I mean, why not? (0:46:18) Kev: Um, at least game-wise, um, so I don’t know if I’ll be checking that out, but it’s a little more refreshing than, than, you know, what is this, Star Sand Island baby? (0:46:31) Kev: A bit, it’s New Dawns, but definitely more exciting than that. (0:46:32) Al: And the other one, which I’m not 100% sure whether we have or haven’t talked about this (0:46:41) Al: one, because like some things are ringing bells. (0:46:42) Kev: We have I or I am like positive or do we talk about just on discords? (0:46:44) Al: We have talked about this, right? (0:46:48) Al: It’s not, it’s, this is the thing I can tell, it’s, it’s on, it’s not, it wasn’t on my list (0:46:49) Kev: I can’t remember because it was on a direct (0:46:54) Al: of games that are upcoming. (0:46:56) Al: So I either didn’t talk about it or I forgot to put on the list, but anyway, we’re talking (0:47:02) Al: about it. (0:47:03) Al: That’s never a way. (0:47:04) Al: The interesting thing about this one is the pixel artist is the one who did Celeste. (0:47:09) Al: So that’s exciting. (0:47:10) Kev: - Yeah, so that’s good work already. (0:47:12) Al: After quitting her dead end job, Fiona starts over on a farm and becomes the immortal hero (0:47:17) Al: of a dead God. (0:47:18) Al: Make friends, fight through horrors and pay your debt in this nightmarish life sim RPG. (0:47:24) Al: This is giving Cult of the Lamb. (0:47:26) Kev: yep it’s it’s still stardew-esque because you have a town and you’re interacting with characters and (0:47:33) Kev: possibly romancing but genuine horror there are some

On this episode of Off the Books podcast, Taylor is joined by special guest, Pam to discuss all things Jacksonville Rays Series. With the new installment of "Pucking Strong" Taylor and Pam discuss the other three books that came before and what they hope to see from Emily Rath's new very anticipated hockey romance. With this one being a MM romance between star player, Henrik, and the teams intern physical therapist, Teddy. Grab your blanket, a favorite drink and cozy up to this new episode of Off the Books.

Kiera and Kristy break down a few reasons why your practice might not seem (or might not be, period) to have any money. They touch on how to find your profit point, knowing your debt, staying on top of collections and AR, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera. And today I have Kristy with me and I'm super excited because today is one of my favorite things to do as consultants and I call it office autopsy. ⁓ Don't worry offices, this is a mix of a few offices because believe it or not, offices think that they're on individual islands and believe it or not, you're not. ⁓ Multi-practices actually struggle, they actually do the same things that you struggle with. And so we just wanna make sure that we bring, we're not going to ever disclose who this office is.   We will mix a few offices together, but I think for people to see what the office's pain point was and then what as consultants were able to do. Kristy, we have some really fun ones. so Kristy and I decided we wanted to podcast today about some office autopsies of what, hopes to help more offices. So Kristy, welcome to the show today. How are you?   DAT Kristy (00:48) Good, thank you. Pleasure to be here.   The Dental A Team (00:50) Of course. Well, I'm super happy because I think the one that we run into a lot ⁓ is we call it cash flow row or cash flow woes, like whatever you want to talk about. But it's really when an office comes to us and they seem to not be able to figure out what's going on. ⁓ They feel like they're producing. Sometimes they're producing, sometimes they're not. So we'll kind of discuss like how to know if you're producing enough or not. But then they feel like they just like have no cash. And so giving some background.   Like I said, I'm going to blend a couple of practices together, but we have kind of going to do like two simultaneous ones. One practice was producing really, really well, but literally the owner felt like they had no money. We're talking like flat broke, felt like they were completely going to go under, had no money, but yet their production numbers were really good and their P &L looked really good. And we're just like, it showed on the P &L. I think, Kristy, you'll find this too, offices get so frustrated.   I got so frustrated and angry with my CPA when they said, well, Kiera, like according to the numbers, you have money. And I'm like, great, high five, jerk. I have no money in my bank account. Like it's the most infuriating feeling in the world of my CPA tells me I should have money, but there's no money. Flip that too on the other side when a practice isn't quite producing what they need to be producing to pay for their expenses. And they feel like they have no money and they are flat broke, which in reality that practice is flat broke because they need to produce more or they need to cut.   So we're gonna kind of dig on both sides of these with office autopsies of what we see, what we've been able to do. And let's start, Kristy, on the side of what do we do? Like, okay, first step, how do we find like the profit point? Like, how do we figure out what should an office be producing? Because I think that's also infuriating when doctors are like, but I'm just producing. I feel like I'm trying to out-produce my problems. Like, I don't know how to produce more. ⁓   how do you, Kristy, as a consultant, come in and help offices just gain that clarity? Because I think sometimes when we know the North Star and we know what we should be targeting, it actually becomes a lot easier to then build block schedules and then figure out what our overhead should be. But how do you help offices even dig into that? As point one to figure out, let's autopsy both of these practices, I think this is step one to really getting clarity.   DAT Kristy (03:00) Absolutely. I agree with you, Kiera. ⁓ The first step is to understand how much we're paying for things. What is the cost to keep the doors open? You know, we talk about overhead, right? But what is overhead? It's everything that we have to pay within a month. Rent, utilities, staffing, right? The other thing that I want to point out is many doctors don't include themselves in that. And I definitely want to pay them   The Dental A Team (03:16) you   DAT Kristy (03:30) Just like if they were an associate in the practice and so we want to include that in that overhead cost if you will and find that What I like to call profit point so we know where we're what's our? BAM right   The Dental A Team (03:48) bam, that bare ace minimum, like what do we have to   do? It's kind of like in real life. I mean, I think all of us have a bam in real life. You know what your mortgage or your rent is. You know how much it costs you to like do your groceries. You know how much daycare is, you know how much it costs you for like your Amazon spending. And some of those are fixed costs. So fixed are like your mortgage or your rent. You can't really change those. Those are fixed for you. Yes, like I get it. The semantics, we're not CPAs here. We're not like, that's not our world.   The semantics are can you change your rent? Potentially you could go find somewhere else. That is an option you could do. But most of the time those are pretty fixed. Just like our utilities are pretty fixed. You can be like my husband where literally our AC goes off at 6 p.m. at night. He freaking freezes us until 6 o'clock to save on these utilities until 9 o'clock. It drives me wild. I'm like in a hoodie freezing, shivering. And then the AC goes off and I'm like roasting. It's really entertaining because he wants to save the $3.   But genuinely speaking, like you're not really going to be saving on those fixed costs. are some fixed ones. Staffing is usually pretty fixed. However, we could add team members or take team members away. So therefore it's not as fixed. But like you said, Kristy, I think it's figuring out in a practice and agreed, doctors should be paid. Like nobody, think that that actually causes more stress for owners. If you don't even know what your paycheck is or you're just taking draws, because then how do you budget your life on a up and down volatile paycheck?   I think that creates a lot of stress versus like, okay, great. Let's just put you at a hundred grand or let's put you at whatever is a reasonable salary. Talk to your CPA. They'll be able to give you that. ⁓ And that can be agreed with Kristy. I like to pay you as an associate, but if right now the practice can't support that minimum should be a reasonable salary of say a hundred grand. So that way you can at least bank on that of getting that paycheck in your practice. Sometimes you have to adjust that, but generally speaking, if we at least give you some type of certainty and clarity,   that's going to help you then be able to budget your life around that too, in addition to budgeting your practice.   DAT Kristy (05:49) Absolutely. In fact, Kiera, sometimes even with startup doctors, I like them to even keep a spreadsheet of their production as if they were paying them as an associate. And then when they start to get profitable, we can back pay those wages. But definitely they have to take care of themselves first. ⁓ I've even seen where they get a little bit of animosity if not, right? Like, staff's driving these cars and they're getting their nails done and they're doing   The Dental A Team (06:00) Agreed.   Mm-hmm.   DAT Kristy (06:19) and I can't even pay myself. So I think it's very important that we understand what that is and work toward that, number one, if we're not there. And then if we are there, adding additional ⁓ percentage to that, which us as consultants can help guide that depending on your goals. If it's paying down debt, paying you as an owner doctor.   ⁓ And you know, we follow the EOS system, so adding those buckets for taxes and those sort of things that come up and we can be prepared for.   The Dental A Team (06:55) Yeah, no, I think it's brilliant, Kristy. And when you said that, I agree. You don't want to not be paid in your practice, because that gets, A, it's stressful, and B, it's annoying, and C, you've got all this debt on you. ⁓ But I also think when we're looking at our practices, there are pieces, so when doctors are like, I'm not getting paid, I just want to remind that sometimes we're being paid through things running through our practices. And so we've got to be careful, because that is,   Like if you didn't have your practice, you'd be paying for that out of pocket. And so that is technically part of your salary, doctors. And I don't want to be the like balloon pop girl over here. I do want to be realistic because a lot of times doctors are like, I'm not making money. And I'm like, but you forgot that these things are running through your practice. So you are being paid for those or those things are no longer coming to you, which is totally fine and legal. Talk to your CPA. Like we want you to do that. There's nothing wrong with it.   But when we're looking and we're like stomping our foot saying we're not being paid, sometimes I even have to remind myself of like, yes, but Kiera, if you didn't have the business, all those costs would be coming out of your W2 paycheck, not your business right off. So agreed with Kristy, when we're looking at this, step one is let's find that BAM, let's find that profit point, let's find out what you have to produce. And then from there, what we need to find out is also in addition to that, how much is our debt?   Because a practice should not have to be covering your debt, but you as a human needs to be covering your debt. So if your student loans, your practice loans, things like that, the practice isn't necessarily a poor performing practice. You just have all this excess of like, my gosh, I have to pay this off, which that's real life for you. And I think that's the difference of a CPA's bookkeeping for you versus your real life living through it. And I can tell you from personal experience, like this is very hard. Sometimes practice loans do go through your   your practice profitability. Again, this is pending on your CPA and how they recommend you do it. But most of the time your student loans and different things like that don't run through the practice. So, but you as a human need to have enough money to be able to pay for all those things. So I think it's finding out the practices, BAM, like Kristy said, finding out your personal BAM, because that might be different. And then from there, let's tack on 10 to 20 % beyond that. So let's say you know you've got to produce 50,000. Well, awesome. 10 % of that would be 55, adding   20 % excuse me, so 10 % of that is going to be an additional $5,000. To do 20 % of that's going to be an extra $10,000. So if I know I've got to do 50, I've either got to produce 55 or 60. Now that becomes much easier and I know beyond that I'm going to have 10 to 20 % leftover of the practice after everything's spent. Our ideal is to get it to where your 50,000 is 50 % of your practice and there's 50 % quote unquote profit beyond that. Now again,   that profit is a little bit funny because if we're doing a 50 % overhead and 50 % profit, doctor salaries usually are not included in that. If doctor salaries are included in that, then usually it's a 20 % profit at the end of that. So I know those two numbers feel a little like disjointed. They've been very disjointed for me. So if you're doing true overhead, we want it at 50%, 30 % doctor pay, 20 % profit. If you want to combine it all together, then it would be 80 % quote unquote overhead, 20 % profit. Now that 20 % profit though,   does technically pay for debt services. So watch that. You might need to scale down our 50 % down a little bit more or 80 % to then be able to offset that. So hopefully that wasn't too confusing for everybody. This is why we're consultants. This is why we help you. But I think when you understand like either need a 50 or an 80 % ultimate goals, we're trying to get 20 % cashflow at the end of the month. think for me, that's like the easiest thing. Like, okay, if I'm producing a hundred grand a month,   I want 20 % of that, so that's 20 grand. So like I'm trying to do easy numbers for all of you. I want 20 grand after everything's paid to still be remaining. Now, one other kicker as a business owner is that 20 % is also taxed. So don't forget that that gets taxed. So if you're at a 30 % tax bracket, well, you gotta take 30 % of 20 grand and then the rest of that you can spend. And this is why I think owners get so frustrated, because it's like, oh my gosh.   Like just tell me how much money I can have. And when I talked to a CPA and Kristy, I think you come across this, like our whole lives up until owning businesses, we've been paid at the W-2. So everything we got paid, we were able to use. Well, now as business owners, everything we're paid, we don't get to use. That's not the way the game works. ⁓ And it's due to write-offs and different pieces like that. So I think just knowing the rules of the game, I remember being so fresh with my CPA and I said, I like you're playing Monopoly with me. Like just tell me the dang rules.   So, and like, don't tell me like, no, you can't pass go, but you can pass go if you do X, Y, Z, but then like, no. So it's really, you've got to have a profitable practice of overhead. That's what we as consultants are really obsessed with. You also as an owner need to be responsible of how you spend. That's not to say you can't spend, but you do need to spend responsibly and you do need to set aside your taxes. And I think when you have all those pieces set up, then you can have guilt free spending because you're paying yourself.   Plus, you know what your true profit is. You've saved for taxes, you've saved for a rainy day, like Kristy was saying. We can put buckets into place to pay down more debt. You can put buckets in place for emergencies in your practice. You can put buckets in place for ⁓ vacations. I have a doctor I was just talking to on Alaska cruise and I was like, how's that bucket working out for you? And he's like, I love it, Kiera, you set it up for me. And I know how much I can spend on vacations. I know how much of my paycheck goes into that portion. He also used to spend an absurd amount on CE. So we set a true budget of how much CE money he could use.   But that's kind of where you then as owners aren't just trying to waffle through this and actually can figure out those profit points. And I do think, Kristy, like as much as we've belabored this so much at the beginning of this podcast, I feel this foundational piece is what makes owners crazy because they don't know the rules of the game. So they start spending all the money. Then you get this huge tax bill. Then you feel mad. Then you feel like you have no money when it's like, no, you did have money. just we accidentally spent it. So now we got to make up for it later because we didn't put these rules of the game into play.   Kristy, you might have a simpler way to do that. What are your thoughts around that?   DAT Kristy (12:49) No, I agree with you 100%. Otherwise, what I find is, you know, business owners, doctors, they just come up with this arbitrary number that they want to hit. But again, just because we're producing something doesn't mean we're profitable. And so they go together, but we have to understand the difference.   The Dental A Team (13:12) I agree. And I love that you said that because production feeds the ego and profit feeds the family. And so it does not matter what you're producing. And I agree with Kristy. It's like, I want to produce a hundred grand. I want to produce 200 grand. Well, high five. Let's help you do that. But on the flip side, let's make sure your expenses are there. And there's another practice I'm thinking of right now where they're like, we have no money. And I'm like, all right, if we have no money, truly it's let's do the checklist. Number one. Like, do you see me even scratch my head? I'm like, if you're not watching the video,   Just know when I hear people say, don't have money. I'm like, all right, it's either a production issue or a spending issue. It's one of the two. So just know those are the only two levers for when you're saying, I don't have money. It's either actually there's a third. There's technically a third. And that is a collection issue too, because we're either not producing enough. And if we are producing enough, we might not be collecting enough. And if we're doing both of those two things, then it's a spending issue. So let's break it down to this office autopsy. Kristy, let's go for a practice that is producing enough.   they don't have money, how did you fix or how did you find out that this practice had a collections issue?   DAT Kristy (14:14) Yeah, well number one we would look at.   How much was their net production and how much are they currently collecting? My minimum benchmark is always to be at 98 % or higher. Obviously, if we can get reservation fees to pre-collect on things, we may see that up a little bit higher. But if they're not at that 98%, what can we do to get them there? What's getting in the way? Is it patient? Is it insurance? Are we not submitting clean claims and getting them back in a timely fashion?   The Dental A Team (14:26) Agreed.   DAT Kristy (14:47) ⁓ But definitely that would be the first place to look.   The Dental A Team (14:51) Yeah. And so Kristy just said the benchmark. If you're not at 98 % collections, then there's a problem. Second piece is look at your AR and if you have more than one month's worth of production in your AR, we also know it's a collection problem. So when we diagnose on this practice, I remember we talked to a doctor and they're like, Kiera, I have no money. Kristy, I have no money. And I remember we're like, so actually you do have money. Believe it or not, the money is there. It's just sitting in uncollected amounts. So Kristy, you even went with another office and like they didn't have money and you just straight up called.   You like went with the office manager and you guys just picked up the phone and started calling on balances to get the money. And I really want doctors to know, and Kristy, I think this is the infuriating part as a consultant where I'm like, no, like you're producing well, you just have to collect the money that you're producing and don't like, don't even feel bad about it. So what do you do for teams that don't want to collect, that have these big ARs? Like what are a few simple steps? Like if that's my practice, I'm-   Hi, Kristy. I'm the doctor today. My team, this does not want to collect money and I feel like I can't pay any bills. What do you do in that scenario as a consultant, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (15:53) Yeah, well, I think we have to dig deeper into their own, like the team members own biases and what's getting in the way and get them comfortable to realize that we're not doing good by our practice and or patients if we're not collecting those balances. So, you know, really seeing what's the roadblock and let's work through it to overcome it because people deserve the care. Patients deserve to be healthy and   And part of that is also paying for the treatment, right? So just digging deeper, figure out what's getting in the way and helping them to overcome, create some verbiage for them to feel confident in being able to collect.   The Dental A Team (16:39) Yeah. And Kristy, I think you do an amazing job as a consultant. think this is where I love being consultants is like, you will actually help them sometimes call on accounts and help them see how easy it is. And ⁓ I also think when we're looking at AR, let's get our best bang for our buck. like, let's sort it to biggest balances and let's call on those first. Like, let's figure out different pieces. And like you said, there might be a myriad of reasons why your team members don't want to collect. don't think typically it's due to the fact that they don't want to collect. I think they're just scared. There's fear.   They're afraid of a patient being mad. They're afraid of not being able to explain the balance on the account. They might not understand why insurance is denying claims. Billing is a whole black hole, just so doctors understand, like there are a lot of nuances there. But I think on that side, if you are producing, like I remember this practice, they are producing like 150 to 200. And I was like, what do mean you don't have money? And we looked at the P &L and we're like, no, according to your P &L, you have money here. And we just realized it was a lack of collection process.   We implemented that Kristy, you helped this practice. They implement, they started collecting and now the doctor's like, wow, like two months later, I feel like I'm like happy as a clown because they literally have money now, but the money was there all along. And that's really like, I think a myth to dispel on this office autopsy is a lot of times the money is actually there. We're just not collecting. We don't have the correct processes in play to do correct insurance verification, to have better estimates, to collect in practice, to then have better ways that we are posting payments.   We don't have a process for how we're calling patients and insurance. And if you don't have that whole process dialed in, that can actually get really daunting for a practice. But Kristy, let's flip sides to the other dark side of this coin where they might not be producing enough. So like we said, it's either a production process, a collection process or a spending process. What do we do on the dark side where they're not producing enough? Like that's scary to me. So what do you do on that? I think there's like two zones here.   DAT Kristy (18:33) Yeah, absolutely. Well.   Number one, once we figure out that benchmark, typically, Kiera, we go and look at how much are they diagnosing, right? If we're looking to hit 100,000, we typically need to be diagnosing minimum three times that number ⁓ if we want to hit it, right? So where are we with diagnostics? And then where are we in case acceptance? how, if we are diagnosing that much, how much are we   actually getting patients to say yes to that treatment if you will.   The Dental A Team (19:09) Mm-hmm. And I think, Kristy, great point on that because it's twofold on this dark side of the coin of if we're not producing, are we diagnosing enough? And if we're diagnosing enough, are we closing enough? And those are two different people actually in this scenario. So doctors, have to diagnose. And if you're a doctor who's scared of diagnosing a couple tools, it's OK. I always tell doctors, it's your moral obligation to diagnose. As a patient, if you were to go in and there was someone who saw   Let's say you did a scan, I've had multiple MRI scans on my brain. Do you know how mad I would be at a doctor if they chose, because like they don't know if I can afford it, if I don't wanna hear the bad news or like whatever it is, they choose not to tell me what's on my brain or a broken bone or if I've got something in my blood work, I would be livid. And yet doctors, you're diagnosing, you're taking x-rays and if you're not telling these patients what's going on, ⁓ that's your moral obligation to do that. So if you're nervous about it, that's okay, I'm not here to tell you.   there's anything wrong with it. I just want to remind you that this is your moral obligation as a healthcare provider. So there's Pearl or Overjet of an AI solution that might be a solution for you ⁓ or just diagnosing one more thing than you normally would. If you're used to like watching, ⁓ that's okay. Maybe like just watch 75 % of it, but diagnose one of those things that you would normally watch and just notice patients don't get mad. They don't get angry. ⁓ Remember when you do get that frustration, it's just due to their expectations not being met.   So if you can even help them co-diagnose with you. So having your hygienist call out their perio numbers and let the patient know before they do it, like, hey, we're looking for the health of your gums, anything above a four, that's something that we need to watch if there's bleeding. And I'm gonna show you, so listen with me, you're gonna hear, ⁓ and then you'll be able to hear. Well, now that patient's listening actively with you of, wow, I heard like seven fours, or I heard like a six in there, now you don't have to try and teach them and say like, you've got perio.   They actually heard it and they co-diagnosed with you. You can show them x-rays of here's a healthy tooth. This is what a healthy tooth should look like. Now look at this tooth and what do you see? You guys, if there's decay in there, even the untrained eye usually can see that pretty big chunk of decay taken out of there or use intraoral photos to where that patient's co-diagnosing with you to gain the trust. And that actually makes it easier for you doctors, because then you're not teaching them. Or if you're like really nervous about it.   AI teaches them. Like it literally just puts the puts it up on there and you don't even have to hardly do anything other than just presenting it to them and educating them. So something simple there. And then if your team's not closing cases, amazing simple things like an NDT our handoff. next visit date, time, recare that can help tremendously. ⁓ having your team members track their treatment plans, having a consultant help them. Like we literally help listen to treatment plans, guide and give coaching on different ways that they can do it. So there's two ways if you're not diagnosing or producing enough.   that we can easily do that. And the next one would be a block schedule. Kristy, any other thoughts on that? Because I'm sure you've got pieces working with so many team members too.   DAT Kristy (22:06) Yeah, listening to you talk about the case acceptance, it's just hitting me that sometimes I think our fear is in telling them, but really if we take a step back and just include them in the process and figure out what are their long-term goals for their mouth and being able to speak to them in a relational way that...   The Dental A Team (22:23) Thank   DAT Kristy (22:29) really is flipping it to what is their goals and getting them what they want. I think that takes the pressure off of us telling the patient, right? And so, ⁓ truly, I think when we master this, it's a beautiful thing and you get patients to stick for very long time because they feel heard, right? And they still are in control of their care. So.   The Dental A Team (22:53) Totally, I agree with you, Kristy, and I love that you talked about like, they're part of the solution with you. And I agree, like, I can't as a treatment coordinator want this more than they do. It really has to be something that they're a part of. ⁓ And also just helping your team see, similar to doctors, when we're watching so many things, team members can accidentally be saying one or two words that's guiding a patient the wrong direction. We might be highlighting insurance more than we're highlighting total treatment. We might be putting emphasis on like your max on insurance or   Like we could just start with one thing because we're afraid of presenting total dollar amounts. All of those things are normal. That's like very normal. Your team's not struggling, team members listening. You're not doing anything wrong. Just highlighting that there are different ways that you can present it. And I call it like the sequence. So think about when you're back in high school and you had your locker combination. If your combination code was 321, you could put in the number 213 and your lock wouldn't open. You could also do 123 and it wouldn't open. You could also do 32...   three and it won't open. You can have the exact same numbers and just do them in the wrong combination and it won't open versus if we have the right pieces in the right combination, we actually get more case acceptance. So just realizing like what are my tools that I'm using? Am I putting them in the right sequence? Am I using the tools like insurance is a tool? It's a coupon. So let's maximize that, but it's not going to guide my treatment. Let's maximize getting full case acceptance. Let's maximize like Kristy said, knowing their ultimate goals and tying my treatment back to those ultimate goals.   just using the tools in the right sequence can also help with that case acceptance. Now, if you are a practice that's not diagnosing enough, I think that this becomes like a little bit of an ego check and I'm sorry to be the ego check day today, but it might be something where if we're not diagnosing enough and we are collecting and we're not producing enough, it might be time for us to look to see about cutting costs. And this is something where I don't love to have this conversation. However, bottom line is the practice has to thrive.   Otherwise we all will fail. And doctors like you won't be able to help your team. You won't be able to help patients. And ultimately your livelihood is on the line too. Nobody is happy in this scenario. So when an office is like, don't have money, great. We've looked to see, you diagnosing? We've looked to see, are we collecting? We've looked to see our case acceptance. Like let's check all the boxes. Flip side is what are we spending money on? Immediately I'm gonna go to anything that you no longer need in the practice. So I know we might have been in the glory days.   doing all these ITero scans. Well, guess what? Glory days are gone. We're no longer there. And I hate to be Debbie Downer, but the reality is we need to sell that. We need to get out of that contract. Anything we are not using in the practice, we need to cut those debts off of us. And this is just a yucky moment. And I'm sorry, but you've got to do it. And as a business owner, this is your job as a CEO is to watch the profitability of the business. Like you have to, and you have to make those hard cuts. And I will tell you, you do it one time. You're a lot more cautious on things you'll purchase in the future.   So we start cutting costs of things that are not paying for themselves. So if we've got extra equipment in the practice, if we've got other things that we can sell. Also, team members, we might have bulked. I've done this as a CEO, so I'm just gonna tell you, like, it was a really, really, really bad day when I realized I over-bulked anticipating something to happen in the practice, and I actually had to scale back and cut. That does not feel good, and it's something that we want to avoid. However, if we have ultimate, like, more team members than are necessary, or we could outsource to things,   I'm not here to say, determinate team members. Like we said, like we went through all the different scenarios, everything we possibly could do. But the reality is you may have bulked too much in a practice and you need to scale back and cut. And that's just a zone where you walk the walk of shame and you commit you're never going to do it again. But ultimately you have to get yourself to a profitable zone. You've got to look at your own spending. A doctor was like really struggling on spending and they had multiple credit cards. Consolidate those credit cards down to where you only have one. We pay it off every single time.   We look to see what other things we like work out deals with the lab or different people. ⁓ But you've got to be realistic. You might have to get a line of credit to get yourself out of it. You might have to take equity out of your home or your practice. Those are things I hate doing, but I also feel sometimes the pain of discipline is better than the pain of regret. And I would rather go through the pain of discipline and learning to like cut my costs and watch my costs and not hire. Like I might extra hire.   a hygienist. I might extra hire a treatment coordinator. Those are two players on my team that will actually generate revenue for me. And not to say assistants don't because assistants can, but I could get by with a Mr. Thurshy. Now, dentists, I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for that. The reality is you can do that for a short amount of time. And I just want to highlight like it's inconvenient, but it's also inconvenient not to have money to pay your bills. So like choose our heart on this. But this is a zone where like I heard a doctor and they were struggling and they   They spent like 10 grand on something unnecessary. And I'm like, that's a spending issue. That's a you issue. That's not a practice issue. And it's not a diagnosis issue. If you cannot produce what you have for your costs, it's like the person has to accept the fact that they bought too big of a house. Like you've got to scale down. You got to size down. And as much as that's an ego blow, that's also smart business ownership. So Kristy, that's my like soapbox. So doctors, like we said, it's first, let's make sure we're producing. Like, let's figure out our amount. have to, then we're going to check our production. Then we're going to check our collections.   Then we're going to check our diagnosis. We're going to check our case acceptance. We're going to check our block scheduling. Then we're going to go into any unnecessary costs that are on our PNL. ⁓ Look to see, there anything we could do to reduce costs? And then it's going to be, we've got to cut. And like, you've got to make that decision before you go under. ⁓ You owe that to your patients. You owe that to yourself and you owe that to your team. And it's a sad, crummy day, but it's part of business. Kristy, what are your thoughts?   DAT Kristy (28:27) Yeah, I think you nailed it. The only area we didn't uncover was you usually do have some unscheduled treatment that you may be able to tap into. And I would definitely explore that resource. But you nailed it, Kiera. I mean, you hit all of the boxes for sure.   The Dental A Team (28:46) So those are kind of like looking at a practice that says, I don't have cash. These are some of the ways to diagnose that we do within practices. And notice the very last thing that we went to was cutting. That's not our mission. That's not our process. And we're never going to tell you to cut somebody. That's going to be ultimately your decision. We're just going to remind you that as a CEO, that's part of your job. And I remember going through COVID, had a coach and she said, Kiera, you've got to have a list. You've got to have a list in your mind of like when things get tight, if they get there.   What are you going to do to make sure your business thrives and survives? And that has stuck with me when I realized like, that's why I'm paid a CEO salary. That's why I'm paid to make these hard decisions. That's why I ⁓ signed up to be a business owner. Like that's the hard side of success. Success has two parts of that coin too. There's the light side and the amazing side. And then there's the dark side that a lot of people don't talk about. So if you're looking at your practice and you're saying, I don't have cash, go through the checklist, Kristy and I just gave you. ⁓   And sometimes it does help to have a buddy in it with you, a consultant, somebody who's in it with you. Like Kristy, I think about the night that you picked up the phone with that office manager and you guys started calling, you called on accounts with them. I think sometimes not feeling alone in the process. think somebody pushing your team, because you're like, I don't know how to say this to my team. ⁓ Someone who can help guide them, someone who can help look at your diagnosis and help you diagnose maybe one more thing, ⁓ really can be an asset. And I call Kristy our money bloodhound.   If I have a practice on cashflow row, I'm like, all right, Kristy, I don't what you're gonna do, but girl, go to work and go start looking. And I think having an outside set of eyes, it's not sitting in there floundering with you, but can have a cool, calm, collected head, sometimes can be the most beneficial. So if you're struggling, reach out, we're here to help you. And it comes with no judgment. Kristy, don't think I've ever once heard you judge a single practice. You come with love, you come with open arms, and you come with solutions quickly.   to make sure they get there. So Kristy, any last thoughts you have for these practices who might be struggling, who are hearing this office autopsy being like, my gosh, that's been me, or my gosh, I feel like I'm headed that way. Any other thoughts you might have for them?   DAT Kristy (30:43) ⁓ Just again that you're not in it alone and having us to help ⁓ guide mentor and just make sure you have you know daily weekly monthly Systems in place and balance, you know a checklist balance. We got ya we can help   The Dental A Team (31:00) We do. do. Well, Kristy,   thanks for being on the office autopsy with me. Thanks for just loving our clients so much and helping them. I think that client who two years after you started helping say to us, I like have never been this free or like, my gosh, like this is what ownership should feel like. I think those are the wins that we live for as consultants of hearing you thrive, hearing your successes, hearing you have your dream life and not being so stressed, ⁓ even in possible situations that are stressful. So Kristy, thanks for being that consultant with us.   DAT Kristy (31:30) It's a pleasure. Thanks.   The Dental A Team (31:32) Of course, for all of you listening, don't be on cashflow row. Don't be struggling about these things. If you are part of any of the scenario, if you're like, my gosh, any of those things resonated, reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Go to our website, click on TheDentalATeam.com book a call. Like truly it's a no judgment, just clarity, just momentum. Even if we can't help you, we've got resources. Even if you're not quite the right fit, that's okay. Like we will be there to support you. ⁓ but I think it takes courage to book the call. It takes courage to admit you need help. but there's so much freedom.   to know that you're not alone, that you're not having to do this alone and that there's somebody who truly can help you get out of the scenario and that's been there, done that and done it successfully many times. So reach out and as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.

Our guest this time, Elizabeth Gagnon is all about Tea. However, as you will discover, her Tea is not mostly the drink although at the end of our episode we do learn she does like some teas. For Miss Liz, as she is most commonly known, Tea stands for Teaching Educational Awareness.   Miss Liz's life growing up was hard. She was sexually abused among other things. It took her awhile to deal with all the trauma she faced. However, as she and I discuss, she made choices to not let all the abuse and beatings hold her back.   She tried to graduate from high school and was one course away from that goal when she had to quit school. She also worked to get her GED and again was only a few units away when life got in the way.   Liz's story is not to her a tragedy. Again, she made choices that helped her move on. In 2010 she began her own business to deal with mental health advocacy using her Tea approach. Liz will tell us all about Tea and the many iterations and changes the Tea model has taken over the years.   I am as impressed as I can be to talk with miss Liz and see her spirit shine. I hope you will feel the same after you hear this episode.   Miss Liz has written several books over the past several years and there are more on the way. Pictures of her book covers are in the show notes for this episode. I hope you enjoy hearing from this award-winning lady and that you will gain insights that will help you be more unstoppable.     About the Guest:   Elizabeth Jean Olivia Gagnon, widely known as Miss Liz, is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the visionary behind Miss Liz's Tea Parties and Teatimes. A fierce advocate for mental health, abuse awareness, and peacebuilding, she's recognized globally for her storytelling platforms that empower individuals to share their truths “one cup at a time.” From podcast host to humanitarian, Miss Liz uses her voice and lived experience to ignite real change across communities and cultures.   A survivor of extreme trauma, Miss Liz has transformed her pain into purpose by creating safe spaces for open, healing conversations. Her work has earned her prestigious honors, including an Honorary Doctorate for Human Rights, the Hope and Resilience Award, and the World Superhero Award from LOANI. She's been featured on over 200 platforms globally and continues to lead through her podcast, social impact work, and live storytelling events.   Miss Liz is also a multi-time international best-selling co-author in the Sacred Hearts Rising and Unstoppable Gems book series. She's the creator of the TeaBag Story Award and the founder of her own T-E-A product line—Teaching Educational Awareness through fashion, wellness, and personal development tools. With every word, event, and product, Miss Liz reminds us that healing is possible, and that we all hold the power to be a seed of change.   Ways to connect with Elizabeth:   Social media links my two websites www.misslizsteatime.com www.misslizstee.com All my social media links can be found on those sites. Or my linktree.  https://linktr.ee/Misslizsteatime     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk to Miss Liz Gagnon, and I'm really interested to hear why she likes to be called Miss Liz instead of Elizabeth, or any of those kinds of things. But Liz also has some very interesting connections to tea, and I'm not going to give away what that's all about, but I'll tell you right now, it's not what you think. So we'll, we'll get to that, though, and I hope that we get to have lots of fun. Over the next hour, I've told Liz that our podcast rule, the only major rule on this podcast is you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So I expect that we're going to have a lot of fun today. And Liz, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are glad you're here.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:09 Well, thank you so much, Michael for having me. It's an honor to be here. I can't wait to dip into the tea and get everybody curious on what we're going to be spilling. So,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so how did you get started with the the name Miss Liz, as opposed to Elizabeth or Lizzie or any of that kind of stuff.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:28 Well, I have all those names too, Michael, I'll bet you   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 do. But still, Miss Liz is what you choose.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:35 Actually, Miss Liz was given to me at the age of four the same time my cup of tea was given to me at the age of four by my Oma. I that she just had a hard time saying Elizabeth. She was from Germany, so she would just call me Miss Liz. Miss Liz. And then I knew, Oh boy, I better move, right.   Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Yeah. If she ever really got to the point where she could say Elizabeth, very well, then you really better move.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 02:59 Well, she used to call me Elvira too, and I didn't like that name Elvira. Yeah, I don't know how she got Elizabeth from a viral but she used to call me a vira. I think maybe it was because her name was Avira, so I think it was close to her name, right? So, well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 tell us a little bit about the early Miss Liz, growing up and all that stuff, and little bit about where you came from and all that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 03:25 Well, I come from a little town called Hearst, Ontario in Canada. It's about maybe 6000 population. I'm going to guess. I was born and raised there until the age of I think it was 31 when I finally moved away for the last time, and I've been in the East End, down by Ottawa and Cornwall and all that stuff since 2005 but My early childhood was a hard one, but it was also a strong one. I A lot of people will say, how do you consider that strong? I've been through a lot of abuse and neglect and a lot of psychological stuff growing up and but I had my tea, I had that little Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole that I could go down once in a while, just to keep me moving and keep me strong, right? So, yeah, my story was, was a hard one, but I don't look at it as a struggle. I look at it as as stepping stones of overcoming Stuff and Being that voice that I am today,   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 struggle, if you if you're willing to talk about a struggle, how   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 04:35 I was sexually abused by my uncle at the age of four, and then other family members later on, in couple years later down the road, but my uncle was the main abuser, and I became impregnant by my uncle and lost a daughter to stillborn. So there was a lot of shame to the family. Was not allowed to speak at this child for many, many years, I finally came out with her story. After my father passed, because I felt safe, because my family would put me into psychiatric wards when I would talk about my little girls,   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 wow, yeah, I, I don't know I, I just have very little sympathy for people who do that to girls, needless to say, and now, now my cat, on the other hand, says she's abused all the time, but that's a different story,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 05:25 right? But I strongly believe, Michael, that we all go through challenges and struggles in life to have our story, to be that voice where we are today, like like yourself, right? Had you not gone through what you went through, you would not have the story that you have   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 well, and I think that it also comes down to what you decide to do with the story. You could just hide it, hide behind it, or other things like that. And the problem is, of course, that then you don't talk about it. Now, after September 11, I didn't go through any real counseling or anything like that. But what I did do was I and my wife and I discussed it. We allowed me to take calls from reporters, and literally, we had hundreds of calls from reporters over a six month period. And what was really fascinating for me, especially with the TV people who came. I learned a whole lot about how TV people set up to do an interview. We had a Japanese company with two or three people who came, and that was it up through an Italian company that had 15 people who invaded our house, most of whom didn't really seem to do anything, and we never figured out why were they. They were there. But it's fascinating to see how   06:46 extras, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 extra, the extras, yeah, but we but it was very fascinating. But the point was that the reporters asked everything from the most inane, dumb question to very intelligent, wise, interesting questions, and it made me talk about September 11. So I don't think that anything could have been done in any other way that would have added as much value as having all those reporters come and talk to me. And then people started calling and saying, We want you to come and talk to us and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11 lessons we should learn talk about leadership and trust in your life and other things like that. And my wife and I decided that, in reality, selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware. So I switched. But it was a choice.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 07:48 Yeah, it is a choice, right? Michael, do you, do you stay in the self pity, or do you rise from it, right? And a lot of people were like, Miss Liz, how can you be so good hearted and open to people that have hurt you so bad? And I always said, since I was a little girl, Michael, I would not give anybody what others gave me. Yeah, you know that that little inner girl in me always said, like, you know what it feels like. Would you like somebody else to feel this way? And the answer is no.   Michael Hingson ** 08:16 And with people like your uncle, did you forgive them ever? Or have you,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 08:21 I forgive them for myself. Yeah, I that's how you do. You know, I'm not forgiving you and coming for your Sunday dinner and having roast beef and pretending that it was all fun and games. When I was younger, I had no choice to forgive him and to be around him, because that's how my parents were. You know, don't bring shame to the family and as a minor. Well, you you know you obey your parents and that, and I hate that word, obey I hear. You know, I grew up in a time where you respect your elders, right? Whether they were good or bad, you respected them. It was Yes, sir, yes, ma'am. You know whether they hurt you or not, you just respected these people. Do I? Do I have respect for them today, absolutely not. I pray for them, and I hope that they find peace within themselves. But I'm not going to sit in and apologize to somebody who actually doesn't give to to tune darns of my my apology, right? So my words?   Michael Hingson ** 09:23 Well, the the bottom line is that respect is something that has to be earned, and if they're not trying to earn it, then you know, why should you respect? On the other hand, forgiveness is something that you can do and and you do it and you move on, yeah, and   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 09:40 a lot of people don't understand the real forgiveness, right? They always tell me, Miss Liz, you haven't forgiven anybody. And I said, Yes, I have, or I wouldn't be where I am today, guys, yeah, if I wouldn't have forgiven those people for myself, not for them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 Now, see, that's the difference between people and my cat. My cat has no self pity. She's just a demanding kitty, and I wouldn't have her any of that. Oh, she's she's really wonderful. She likes to get petted while she eats. And she'll yell at me until I come and pet her, and then she eats while I'm petting her. She loves it. She's a cutie. She's 15 and going on two. She's great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 10:17 Oh, those are the cute ones, right? When they stay young at heart, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:21 oh, she, she does. So my wife passed in 2022, and now stitch, that's the cat's name, sleeps up next to me. And so that works out well, and she was named stitch when we got her, not quite sure where the name originally came from, but we rescued her. We were not going to keep her. We were going to find her a home because we were living in an apartment. But then I learned that the cat's name was stitch, and I knew that that cat weren't going to go nowhere, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994 you think a quilter is ever going to give up a cat named stitch? So stitch has been with us now for over 10 years. That's great. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of love there,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:03 yeah. And, you know, these little connections, right? The Universe sends us, you know, the names and all of that. They send us pets as well as guidance. You know, my little guy is Tinkerbell, and everybody thinks that she's still a kitten. She she's going to be 12 in September, so, but she's still a little tiny thing. She kept the name. She just wants to be a little Tinkerbell. So   Michael Hingson ** 11:24 that's cool. What a cute name for a kitty. Anyway, yeah, well, so you, you grew up? Did you go to to college or university?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 11:34 No, I got out of school. I was half a credit away from high school graduation. I became pregnant for the second time, and then I got married at 18. While it was more or less I was I had no choice to get married or or I would have, my father would have took my daughter from me, my oldest, who is alive, and I I had already lost one, and I wasn't losing a second one. So I got married. I did go back to adult school in 2000 I got I was one exam away from getting my GED, and that night, I got a beating of a lifetime from my ex husband, because he didn't want me to get ahead of him, right? So, and then I went back again to try and get my GED three other times, and I was always four points away from getting what I needed to get it. So I was just like, You know what? The universe doesn't want me to have this piece of paper, I guess. Yeah, and I'm not giving up, right? I'm just it's not the right timing and maybe in the future, and it's always the y and s string that gets me the four point question guys on the math exam that gets me every time, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 oh, well. Well, I always thought that my wife, in so many ways, was was ahead of me, and it didn't ever bother me, and it never will bother me a bit, just things that she would say, creative things, just clever things. She clearly was ahead of me, and I think she felt the same way about me in various ways, but that's what made for a great marriage. And we we worked off each other very well, and then that's kind of the way it really ought to be. Oh boy, ego, ego gets to be a real challenge sometimes, though, doesn't   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:24 it? Oh yes, it does. So   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 what did you do when you didn't go off and end up going to school?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 13:32 I became a mom, and then I did the mom role, right? I grew up in a kind of like a redneck, hillbilly kind of family where the accent kind of kicks in once in a while. You know, it was barefoot and pregnant, you take care of the kids, cook and clean and be the wife and just obey. Once again, that word obey. You know, I grew up with that word a lot, and that's why you don't like that word. I'm surprised I'm even using it tonight. But, yeah, so it was just take care of the family and just live. And eventually, in 2005 a lot of things happened with my children and myself, and we just left and started a new life. In 2006 I felt ill. I was at work, and my left arm went numb, and I thought I was having a heart attack or or that they were checking me since I was little, for MS as well, because I have a lot of problems with my legs. I fall a lot, so we're still looking into that, because I'm in the age range now where it can be diagnosed, you know, so we're so in 2006 I became ill, and I lost feelings from my hips down where I couldn't walk anymore. So I had to make some tough choices, and I reached out to my family, which I kind of. Figured I'd get that answer from them. They told me to get a backbone and take care of my own life and stop because I moved away from everybody. So I turned to the foster care system to help me with my children, and that was a hard choice. Michael, it took me two and a half months. My children sat down with me and said, Mommy, can we please stay where we are? We we have friends. You know, we're not moving all the time anymore. I saw it took a while, and I signed my kids over legal guardianship, but I made a deal with the services that I would stay in the children's lives. I would continue their visits twice a month, and be at all their graduations, be at their dance recital, anything I was there. I wanted my children to know that I was not giving up on them. I just was not able to take care of them in my   Michael Hingson ** 15:50 home. Did they accept that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 15:53 Oh, they did, yeah, and it was a bumpy road. The first five years. Was a lot of adjusting, and we were really close. I got to pick the foster homes, which is not usually the way it works. So and my children went through a lot of abuse as well. My ex husband was very abusive, so I knew that my daughter needed to be around horses. She loved to be around horses, so I found her home that had horses. And my other two children, I found a home where they had music, and music was really important to me, because music is what saved me as well during my journey, right? I turned to music to to get through the hard times. So yeah, the first five years was it was adjustments, and really good, and we got along. And after that the services changed, new workers came in, and then it became a nightmare. There was less visits happening. There was an excuse for a visit. There was oh, well, maybe we can reschedule this, or if we do them at five in the morning, can you show up? And of course, I was showing up at five and going to bed as soon as the visit was done, because I was by myself, so it was a journey, but and I I am grateful for that journey, because today me and my older kids, who are adults, were really close, and we're building that bond again, and they understand the journey that Mom had to take in order for them to have a home.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 They understand it and accept it, which is really obviously the important thing,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:30 yeah. But it's been, it's been rocky. Michael, like, you know, we've had our ups and downs. We've had like you You gave up on us. Like, you know, we've had those moments. But my children now becoming adults and becoming parents themselves. They see that. They see what mom had to do, right?   Michael Hingson ** 17:47 So are you able to walk now and move around?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 17:51 Oh, yeah, I was. It took about six months for me to learn how to walk again. I still have a limb from time to time. A lot of people call it my penguin little limp, because I limped like a little penguin from time to time, because my what happened is I went through so much trauma in my life constantly that I they diagnosed me with conversion disorder, which is not really well known to to a lot of people. And what it does is it shuts the body down, so I have no control over when my body says it's going to take a break. It just says I'm going on holidays, and you just gotta deal with it. So there's days where I can't walk, right? There's days where I can't talk. It sounds like I'm drunk. My sight is blurred, plus I'm already losing my sight because of genetic jerusa and stuff like that as well. So, but I mean, it took everything in me to push myself. And what pushed me was I had this nurse that was really rough with me, and she would give me these sponge baths, and she would slam me into the chair. And I told her, I said, next week, you will not be slamming me in that chair. And the next week I got up and I took three steps, and then the next couple hours, it was four, five steps, six steps. And I was like, I got this. I know I can do this, but it took six months, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 but still, ultimately, the bottom line is, no rugby or American football for you. Huh? Nope. Okay.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:24 No, not you know, not yet. Anyway, well, maybe you never know, right? I'm still young. I'm only 51 you never know what I'm going to be doing next year. I always tell everybody, Miss Liz is always on an adventure.   Michael Hingson ** 19:36 So yeah, but I'm I'm not, I'm not an advocate of going off for rugby or football, but that's all right, do whatever works.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:42 Well, I'd like to watch football   19:45 that's different. I'd like to   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 19:47 check those boys out once in a while. Well, yeah, but yeah, no, I You just never know where I'm gonna go, right? Only the good universe knows where it's putting me next   Michael Hingson ** 19:58 year. So, so what kind. Of work. Did you did you do and, and what are you doing now? How to kind of one lead to the other?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 20:08 Actually, I started my business in 2015 of Miss Liz tea times. It was a fundraising Tea Party, but it started in my home. All I did was have a bunch of ladies over and celebrate strong women. And one lady really liked the layout that I did, and she's like, Can we do this in the community? I was like, I don't know. Let's try it. You know, if we don't try, we don't know. And then I went to the community for, I think, three years, we raised over $5,000 for different services that helped me along the way as well, and places that needed money for serving the community. And then we went virtual. When covid hit. The podcast came along, and I did that for five years, and I burnt myself out doing that. I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, so you either get nothing at all, or you get it all at once. So and and now I'm I've been writing and working on stuff and working on an E commerce business with a new way of serving tea, keeping people on their toes and wondering what's coming next. Uh, children's book is coming out soon. Uh, poultry book. So I've just been busy writing and doing a lot of different things.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 What did you do before 2015 for worker income? Or did you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:18 I worked in gas stations, chambermaid kind of stuff like that, something that wasn't too educated, because my ex husband didn't like that stuff, right? Don't try and be a leader. Don't try and be in the big business world. I'm sure he's his head is spinning now, seeing all the stuff that I'm doing, but that's on him, not me. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 yeah, absolutely, alright, let's get to it. Tell me about tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 21:49 Well, tea, tea started at four, and it was my OMA that gave me a cup of tea. And everybody thinks it's the beverage. It's not the beverage. We did have a cup of tea. So there is a beverage, there is a beverage involved. But she gave me words, and when I was little, I didn't understand these words. She said, reflect, recharge and release. And she came from the war in Germany, and she said the first thing I had was a cup of tea when I came to Canada, and she just knew that I was going to have a hard life. She knew that the family was kind of, you know, they had their sicknesses and addictions and stuff like that, so she just knew. And I was a quiet kid. I was always in the corner humming and rocking myself and doing stuff by myself. I didn't want to be around people. I was really loner. And she gave me these words, and these words resonated with me for years, and then I just kept hearing them, and I kept hearing Tea, tea. I know sometimes I'd be sitting in a room Michael by myself, and I'd be like, Okay, I don't want a cup of tea right now. Like, I don't know what this tea is like, but it was like the universe telling me that I needed to get tea out there. And I knew it wasn't a beverage. I knew it was. OMA gave me words. So we gotta bring words to the table. We gotta bring the stories to the table. She was giving me a story. She was telling me to stay strong, to recharge, to reflect, release all of the stuff that all of these things take right, to overcome stuff. You know, we have to reflect on the journey that we were put on, and recharge ourselves when we overdo ourselves and release, releasing and letting go of things that we know will never, ever get an answer to. So,   Michael Hingson ** 23:32 so you, what did you do with all of that? I mean that those are some pretty deep thoughts. Needless to say.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 23:38 Yeah, so I, I started with the tea time at home, and then when I went to the podcast, I would ask people, What is your tea? And then people were like, Miss Liz, I don't even like tea, like I'm a coffee drinker, or I like a good beer, or I'm just like, Okay, well, you don't even have to like the beverage. Like, it's not about the beverage. It's about our past, our present and our future. That's what the tea is, right? We all have that story. We all have the past, the present and the future, and how we how we look at it, and how we defined our stories, and how we tell our stories. So that's where the T is.   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 But you came up with words for the acronym eventually, yes, yes. When did you do that? And what were the words   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 24:20 I came up with the words I believe in 20, 2016 2017 and for me, it was teaching. I wanted to be a little kindergarten teacher when I was a little girl. So T was teaching right and teaching myself that the past was not going to define my future story. He was educational. I again. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to educate people. I wanted to educate myself. Even though I didn't have those degrees and I didn't go to school and universities, I could still educate myself. I could still reach out. I could still research. I could still find answers myself. And a was awareness, just bringing awareness that our lives are different and. Can change them, right? Nobody can define how our stories end, except for ourselves. Yeah, and the A, A was awareness, and the awareness that, you know, that we can bring any form of awareness, good, bad or ugly, you know, and I bring a little bit of all of it through my stories, and through, through the the overcoming that I've had, right is, it's an ugly story. There were bad things that happened, but there are good results in the end, yeah, because had I not gone through what I went through, Michael, I would not be here having this conversation with you tonight,   Michael Hingson ** 25:37 or it'd be a totally different conversation, if at all you're right, absolutely. So you you deal a lot with being a mental health advocate, and that's very understandable, because of all of the things that that you went through. But what kind of really made you decide to do that?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 25:58 Mental health advocate was deep in my blood since 2010 when I went to the pharmacy and gave them all my medication and said, I no longer want any of this because they had me so numbed with antidepressants and painkillers and stuff that I didn't even know I had children. People were telling me, your kids are coming for a visit. And I was like, why are you telling me I have kids? Like I'm a kid myself, like I was going backwards. And I didn't know that I was married, that I had children, but my kids names were and I was just like, like, When is mom and dad coming to get me? Like, I was like, I was so messed up, Michael. And I was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, August 29 of 2009 I brought my medication, and I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm taking ownership of my life. I'm being the advocate of my life. I do not need these pills. Yes, it will be hard, yes, I've got trauma, but there's another way of doing this.   Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Well, you're clearly a survivor, and you've made choices that demonstrate that by any standards, and obviously a mental health advocate, what do you think are some of the major misconceptions that people have about mental health today that they also just don't seem to want to get rid of?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 27:15 Well, a lot of people have this conception that if you take a pill, it's going to go away. You're healed, you know, and then they get hooked on pills, or they get hooked on this is easy fix, right? Like I said this afternoon in another interview, I did this certain this afternoon. Michael, you know, we get these diagnosis, but doctors don't really sit with us and explain the diagnosis to us, they don't really understand. They don't really explain the side effects of the pills that they're giving us, and then themselves, may not even know the full aspect of those diagnosis. They just put you on a checklist, right? You check A, B, C and D, okay. Well, you have bipolar. You got DCE and you got D ID, like, you know, it's charts, so we're not really taking the time to understand people. And mental health has a long way to go, a lot of a long way to break the stigma as well, because mental illness, most of it, cannot be seen. It cannot be understood, because it's inside the body, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look and analyze that and try to help truly deal with it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 28:32 Yeah. A lot of people will judge what they don't understand or what they're scared of understanding,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 which is why it's fascinating, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who believe in Eastern medicine and alternative medicine, as opposed to just doing pills. And it's fascinating to talk to people, because they bring such insights into the conversation about the human body, and many of them have themselves, used these alternatives to cure or better themselves, so it makes perfect sense, but yeah, we still don't tend to want to deal with it. Yeah?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:17 Well, anything that's uncomfortable, right? We don't want to really face it, right? We want to run from it, or we want to say, Oh, it's fine. I'll get to it next week, and then next week comes to next month, and next month comes to next year, and you're still dealing with the the same trauma and the same pain, right? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 29:35 Well, so tell me about tea time with Miss Liz, because you've developed that. You've brought it into existence, and that obviously also helps deal with the mental health stigma. Tell me about that?   29:50 Well, I just   Michael Hingson ** 29:51 one question, but, well,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 29:53 I just really wanted to meet people, and I wanted to hear their stories, you know, because it gets lonely once in a while. And you're always telling your story, right? So I wanted to get other stories, but I didn't want to just deal with mental health. I wanted to deal with grief and abuse and things, everything that I've lived with, right? And it all goes back to trauma, like all three of them, abuse, grief, mental health, it deals with trauma in some form. And then I got, I got hooked to a bunch of people that found Miss Liz on on the airwaves, and then connected with you, Michael, you were a guest on Tea Time. Yeah, my last season, and, you know, and I got to go down a bunch of rabbit holes with a bunch of cool people. And tea time was just a place for everybody, just to come and share, share what they were doing and why they were doing it, right? So a lot a lot of the questions that I asked was your younger self way? What? How do you see your younger self to your older self, and why are you doing what you're doing today? And a lot of people are writing books because writing saved them through hard times in life as well. And a lot of mental health back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were not spoken of. You know, it was really hush hush. Oh, that person's just a rebel, or that person's just a little crazy once in a while, or has too much to drink from time to time. So mental health wasn't really spoken about in those those decades, right? So,   Michael Hingson ** 31:27 yeah, and you know, but I hear what you're saying about writing, and you know, I I've written now three books, and I've learned a lot as I write each book, and I think there's a lot of value in it, but also it's more than writing, although writing is is a way to to really do it from the most personal standpoint possible. But as as you've pointed out, talking about it is also extremely important, and talking about whatever, whether it's a bad thing or a good thing, but talking about it as well as writing about it is is valuable, because if we take the time to do all of that, we'll learn a lot more than we think we will well.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:13 And there's so many different genres of writing, right? There's horror, there's fiction, there's non fiction, there's children's books, you know, but those are all storytellers too, in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 Well, they are and and again, it's the the point is, though, that when you take the time to write, you really have to think about it, probably even more than, sometimes, than people, when they just talk about things. And as you're writing, like I said, you learn a lot no matter what genre of writing you're doing, you're putting yourself into it, and that, in of itself, helps educate and teach you   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 32:53 absolutely, you know, and I learned so much from a lot of the authors that were on Tea Time, You know, little tricks and little ways of making skits and scenes and characters and names for their characters. And I'd be like, well, where'd you get that name? And they'd be like, I don't know what, just a childhood name that was stuck with me for a long time. I really liked meeting authors that wrote their memoirs or stories, because I'm a person that likes truth. I'm a truth seeker. You know, if it doesn't, it doesn't match up. I'm just like, let me ask you more questions. Let me take you down this rabbit hole a little more. So,   Michael Hingson ** 33:35 yeah, well, a lot of people tend to not want to talk about their journey or talk about themselves, and they feel unseen and unheard. How would you advise them? What would you advise them to do?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 33:51 I felt that way for many years. Michael, growing up in the in the situation that I grew up in, right? You did, and I wrote my first book. I was a co author in the Sacred Hearts rising series by compiled by Brenda Hammond in Alberta. And her book, hear me, kept reaching out to me. I kept hearing I didn't even know what the book was. It was just the title was hear me. And I kept saying, I want people to hear me. I want I want to be heard like, I want people to know this, like I'm tired of living in silence, you know, just to keep everybody hush hush, because everybody's comfortable. So I reached out to Brenda, and that's how my writing journey started. Was with Brenda, and I wrote my first chapter in there, and and it just continued to the ripple effect into other books and other anthologies and other people. And I find that the universe is guiding me, like bringing me to the people that I need to see. You know, like meeting you. Michael, like, had I not started a podcast and met Mickey Mickelson, I would have never met you. Michael, so Mm hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 34:54 And he continues to to be a driving force in helping a lot of authors. Absolutely.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:00 Absolutely, yeah. I'm not even sure how Mickey found me. We had a video call, and the next thing I knew, we were working together for three years, and I got to meet incredible authors through Mickey. Creative edge, and it's, it was one of the driving force of Tea Time with Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 35:19 I can't remember exactly how I first heard of Mickey, either, but we we chatted, and we've been working together ever since.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:29 Yeah, Mickey is pretty awesome. I still keep my eyes on Mickey, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 and for those who don't know, Mickey is kind of a publicist. He works with authors and helps find podcasts and other opportunities for authors to talk about what they do and to interact with the world.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 35:50 Yeah. And then I got Yeah. And then I got to meet other people that found me on the airwave, through my press releases and through me speaking at different events. I had other people reach out with their authors and their members and all of that. And I got to meet some really incredible people, like I've had doctors on Tea Time. I've had Hollywood directors on Tea Time. I've had best selling authors like yourself Michael, like, you know, I got to meet some really incredible people. And then I got to meet other people as well that were doing movements and orphanages and stuff like that. We reached over 72 countries, you know, just people reaching out and saying, Hey, Miss Liz, can we have tea? And absolutely, let's sit down. Let's see what? Where you gotta go with your tea?   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 So you're in another season of tea time right now. No,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 36:39 I'm not. A lot of people are asking me to come back. I don't know if I will come back. I am working on, like I said, the E commerce drop shipping company for Miss Liz. I'm working on children's book. I'm working on poultry. I'm doing a lot of interviews now for my own books, daytime books and stuff like that. But I am reconsidering coming back maybe for a couple surprise podcast interviews. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:07 well, tell us about the E commerce site, the store.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:11 Well, that was supposed to be launched on my birthday. I like to give myself birthday gifts because I'm by myself a lot. So two years ago, I gave myself the tea books for my birthday. And this year I was supposed to give the E commerce drop shipping, where we opened a second branch of Miss Liz's tea, where we changed the letter A to E, so T, E, E instead of T, E, A. But if you look at my OMA, who comes from Germany, T in Germany, is tee, so we're still keeping almost T, we're just bringing it in a different way. And   Michael Hingson ** 37:45 what does it stand for? Do you have definition   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 37:50 of it for the for this T? We have transcend embrace and envision. So transcend beyond the story that we all tell. Embrace Your embrace the journey that you're on and envision your dreams and visions that you can move forward.   Michael Hingson ** 38:07 So how's the E commerce site coming?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 38:11 It's coming along. We got a couple of hiccups. I just want to make sure that everything is good to go. We have over 100 different products, and again, we do not have the tea beverage on the site. So you guys can see that Miss Liz is staying true to herself, that it is not about a beverage, but we do have an inner journey happening. So you'll have to check that out. So we have some some candles and some journals, some fashion that Miss Liz has created. So there's a lot of cool things that you'll see, and then we have some collaboration. So if any of the businesses out there would like to collaborate with missus, because I'm big on collaboration, we can maybe come up with a brand or or a journal or something that we can work two brands together to create a bigger inner journey for people   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 to enjoy. Is the site up.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:05 It was up, and we had to take it down because there were some glitches in it, and I wanted to make sure that it so we're hoping that it's going to be going for June 1. I don't like to set dates, because then I get disappointed, right? If something comes up. So it was supposed to be May 17, guys, and I know that a lot of people were looking forward to it. My children were looking forward to it because of the fashion. And there's something for everyone on on the new website, for children, for parent, for mothers, for fathers, for family. So I wanted to make sure that everybody was included.   Michael Hingson ** 39:41 Tell me about some of the fashion things.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 39:44 So we have inner journeys. So I had an eating disorder from the age of 12 Michael, so I had a body image all the time. So I wanted to make sure that we felt beautiful about ourselves. So we have some summer dresses. In there, we have some swimwear. Swimwear was another thing that I didn't really like to wear growing up. I like to be covered a lot. So we and then we have undergarments for people to feel beautiful within themselves. And then we have hoodies and T shirts. But we have messages, little tea messages from Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 40:23 Now, are most of these fashion things mainly for women, or are there some men ones on there as well?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 40:28 No, we have men. Men have stories too. So there, there's, I thought. So, yeah, we have men in there. We and we have, I'm really big on having men share their stories, because I have a son. I've said this on many platforms. I would want my son to have the same services that his mother has. So of course, there's a men where in there, there are children's wear in there as well, and there's some puzzles and some diamond art and all of that. So there's a little bit of everything in there.   Michael Hingson ** 41:00 So how do you use all of the different mechanisms that you have to promote awareness? I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like you to tell how you're promoting awareness, mental health and otherwise awareness.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:15 I think the way that I'm promoting myself and my brand, Michael is just show up and be yourself, believe in yourself and stay true to yourself, be your real tea, you know. And the way that I'm branding and marketing it is, I'm breathing different. So when you hear tea, you think the beverage right away. Well, then when you hear Miss Liz, you know, Miss Liz is not bringing a beverage. So right over the way you're getting different, right? And I like to keep people on your toes, because they think that they might know what's coming, but they don't know same as, like the fashion, where you might think you know what's coming, but then you'll be like, Whoa. This is not what I was thinking.   Michael Hingson ** 41:54 And you and you put as you said, sayings and other things on there, which help promote awareness as   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 41:59 well. Absolutely, yeah, and it's simple phrases that I use all the time. You tell me, I can't, and I'll show you I can. You know, it lives in you. These are some of the brand messages that I have on my on my merchandise. Also, men have stories too simple phrases. You know that we just gotta make awareness. It's so simple sometimes that we overthink it and we overdo it, that we just gotta keep it simple.   Michael Hingson ** 42:28 Mm, hmm. Which? Which make perfect sense? Yeah. So you, you talk a lot about mental health. Have we made improvements in society regarding mental health, and how do we do more to represent marginalized voices? Oh,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 42:50 we got lots of work to do. Michael, we're not even close, you know, we're just on the touch of the iceberg for mental health. We have all these organizations that are competing with each other instead of collaborating. I think we would really make a huge difference if we started working together instead of against each other. Or my service is better than your service. Let's start just collaborating together and working together as one. You know that all this division in the mental health world is what's causing the distractions and the delays in services and and getting help? You know, I think we just need to start working together. And collaboration is not weakness. It's not taking somebody else's product away. It's working together. It's teamwork. And I think we need more teamwork out there.   Michael Hingson ** 43:41 We also need to somehow do more to educate the governments to provide some of the funding that they should be providing to help this process.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 43:51 Absolutely, and I think the statuses need to really be looked at. They're not even close.   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 Yeah, I I agree there, there's a long way to go to to deal with it,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:04 absolutely. You know, just throwing numbers out there to have numbers, but not actually getting the real factual information out there can cause a lot more damage.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 So if you could shift one mindset regarding mental health, what would it   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 44:24 be? Oh, good question. Michael, hmm, that we're not alone, okay, because a lot of people with mental illness think they're alone, but we're actually not alone. There's, there's a lot of people out there that are feeling the same thing as us,   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 and that's a mindset that people have, that we need to to deal with. We need to change. We need to teach people that the reality. Is there a lot of people, whether they've experienced the same things as as any individual has or not, isn't the issue. But there are a lot of people who do want to be more welcoming, and there are a lot of people who could learn to be more welcoming than they are   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 45:18 absolutely Well, I think it starts with a conversation, right? Having these conversations, a lot of people don't want to talk about mental health because they don't want to know the truth. They just want to know what society says, right, what the system say, what the services say, but they're not actually advocating for themselves. I think if we all started advocating for our mental health, we would make the impact and the change as well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:45 yeah, but we need to really, somehow develop a collective voice and Absolutely, and that's part of the problem. I know that with the world of disabilities in general, the difficulty is that, although it is probably well, it is one of the largest minorities, maybe the second largest in the world, depending on whether you want to consider women the minority. Although there are more women than men, or men the minority, the reality is that the difficulty is that there are so many different kinds of disabilities that we face and some that we don't even recognize. But the problem is that everyone totally interacts within their own disability to the point where they don't find ways to work together nearly as as much as they can. And it doesn't mean that each disability isn't unique, because they are, and that needs to be addressed, but there's a lot more power if people learn to work together   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 46:46 exactly. I'm with you, with that, Michael, because there's so many disabilities that you don't see right, that you don't hear about, somebody will talk about a new diagnosis that nobody knows about or is unaware of, like when I, when I talk about conversion disorder, a lot of people don't know about it, and I'm just like, check it out. You know, I'm a lady that actually has crazy papers, so if I go a little crazy on people, I can get away with it. I got the paper for it, right? So, but the thing is, the doctors, they they need more education as well. They need to be educated as well, not just the society, not just the public, but also the doctors that are working in those   Michael Hingson ** 47:29 fields. There's so many examples of that. You know, website access for people with disabilities is a major issue, and we don't teach in most schools, in most places where we where we have courses to instruct people on how to code, we don't really make making websites inclusive and accessible a major part of the courses of study, and so the result is that we don't tend to provide a mechanism where people shift their mindset and realize how important it is to make sure that their websites are fully inclusive to all. It's the same kind of concept. Yeah.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 48:12 Well, I think we all could learn a little bit more, right when we when we all get to this point where we we've learned everything. I think that's where society gets ignorant towards disability, right? You know, living with disability myself, Michael, I've had a lot of people say, Well, you look fine. There's nothing wrong with you. Why? Why? Why you like this? You know, why? And my answer is, why are you that way? Why are you judging something you're not seeing? You know, it's just like in grief, you don't see grief. It lives within us. You don't see abuse. The person is usually living within a home that is told what happens in the home. Stays in a home, you know, or they they try to mask it and hide the real truth, right? Yeah, and that, and that's a form of trauma as well, because we're being told to hush. So then when we start speaking, well, then we start doubting ourselves, right? The self doubt kicks in, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't do that, or I shouldn't, you know, be there. So you start to self doubt everything. I did that for many years. I self doubt why I was in a room with a bunch of people, or why I was speaking at that event, or why I wrote in that book, or and then I was just like, You know what? I am enough, and we all are enough, and we all can be seen in a different light. My   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 favorite example illustrating some of what you're talking about is that I had a phone conversation with someone once, and arranged for them to come to our apartment. I was on campus at the time, living in an on campus apartment, and the guy came out that afternoon, and I answered the door and he said, I'm looking for Michael Hinks. And I said, I'm Michael. Hanks, and his comment was, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. Now, I've never understood what it means to sound blind, but whatever. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's amazing, you know. And I was polite enough not to say, Well, you didn't sound stupid on the phone either. But yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:22 right, that that would, that would be something I would say. Now, back in the day, I was a little mouse, now I'm a lion, and I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. Like, tap for Taft man, like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 Well, yeah, but there, there are ways to deal with things like that. But it, it still worked out. But it was just an amazing thing that he said, yeah,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:43 it surprises me what some people say. Sometimes I'm just like, Really, wow.   Michael Hingson ** 50:50 So you've done well, a lot of international speaking. Where have you traveled to speak?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 50:55 I spoke in Detroit in 2020, 20 or 2021, I can't remember the year Michael, but I spoke at the Sean fair tour, and I spoke on tea, of course, and my journey, and my story and my journey on how I'm just a different woman who wants to come to the table and make a difference. I just want to show people that if as long as we're trying, we can make a difference, as long as we're showing up, tired, broke, frustrated, we're making a difference, you know? And that's, that's my message to everybody, is just show up, just be you, and not everybody needs to like you, you know. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I don't want to be everyone's cup of tea.   Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Mm, hmm. You can only do and should only do what you do, yeah, but   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 51:44 And yeah. And then I'll be speaking in October. I just spoke at an event here in Cornwall, in my local area, for empowered to recovery with Jay Bernard. Bernard, and in October, I'll be speaking in North Bay for an elementary student, my sister and she actually went to school with my sister. She actually found me through my books. And she's she runs this youth group, and she'd like me to go speak to the youths on empowerment and and and the tea, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 always worth talking to kids. It's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the neat thing about the most neat thing about speaking to children is there's so much more uninhibited. They're not afraid to ask questions, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 52:32 I love questions like, I I love when I talk to people and they have some questions like, What? What is this tea that you keep talking about? And I'm just like, the tea is just the grab guys. It's just to get you hooked. It's like going fishing and catching a good fish, like, I put the hook in the water, and you all come and you join and you have a tea with me.   Michael Hingson ** 52:56 But still, children are so much more uninhibited. If, if I deliver a talk, mainly to kids, even kindergarten through sixth or seventh grade, they're much more open to asking questions. Sometimes they have to be encouraged a little bit. But boy, when the questions start, the kids just keep coming up with them, which is so great.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 53:20 Great. It's that ripple effect that first person to break the ice, to ask the first question, and then it just rolls.   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 It's a lot harder with adults to get them to to do that. Yeah, and it is. It is, even then, though, when adults start to ask questions, and the questions open up, then we get a lot of good interactions, but it is more of a challenge to get adults to open and ask questions than it is children. And it's so much fun because you never know what question a child is going to ask, which is what makes it so fun, too, because there's so much more uninhibited   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:01 and the imagination of a child. I love speaking like what my granddaughter, she's four, and the conversations we have about dragons and tooth fairies and and good monsters, because I don't like bad monsters, she knows grandma doesn't like bad monsters, so we talk about good monsters. And it's just the stories, the imagination, that opens up new, new ways of seeing things and seeing life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 54:29 you've gotten a number of awards, humanitarian awards, and and other kinds of awards. Tell me a little bit about those.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 54:36 Honestly, Michael, I don't know how I got those awards. I was just being myself, and I guess a lot of people nominated me for stuff, and they were just like, you gotta check this. Miss Liz out, you know, and even some awards, I'm just like, Why me? You know, all I did was be myself. I'm grateful for them, I and I appreciate the awards. But. I don't, I don't want to be known for the awards, if that makes any sense.   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Mm, hmm, I understand well, but you've been successful. What does success mean to you?   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:10 Success means showing up for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 Tell me more about that.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 55:17 Of course. You know, success is different for everybody, right? Some people want the million dollars they want. They want the best seller they want. You know, they want the big business. They want the big house. For me, success is just showing up. Growing up. Nobody showed up for me. So I knew at a young age I had to show up for myself, and that was my success story. Was just showing up. There's days I really don't want to be here. I'm just tired of showing up, but I still show up tired, you know. So that's my success story, and I think that's going to be my success story until the day I die. Michael is just show up.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well, there's a lot to be said for showing up, and as long as you do show up, then people get to see you, right? Yeah, which is, which is the whole point. And again, as we talked about earlier, that's the choice that you made. So you decided that you were going to show up and you were going to be you, and you also talk about it, which is, I think, extremely important, because so many people won't, not a criticism. But last year, I spoke at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival in April of 2024 and it was a and every year they hold this festival, and it's a celebration of American history. One of the people there was a secret service agent who rode in the car right behind JFK when he was assassinated, and it took him 45 years before he could talk about it. It was that traumatic for him, and he just wasn't able to move on. Eventually he was able to talk about it, and he was at the festival, as I was last year, and did speak about it. But it's it is hard, it is a major endeavor and effort to make the choice to show up, to to face whatever you have to deal with and move on from it or move on with it. I, you know, I talk about Karen, my wife passing, and I will never say I move on from Karen. I continue to move forward, but I don't want to move on. I don't want to forget her Absolutely. And there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Michael, no, that's it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 57:45 You know, we look at life differently, right? Different perspectives and, and that's the whole thing with the T is looking at life differently. We all have a past, we all have a present, and we all have a future, right? And it's how we look at our past. Do we stay stuck in our past, like a lot of people are, mislead your in the past? No, I'm not. I speak of the past, but I'm not in the past. I'm in the present moment, and my trauma is real and it's raw, and I'm dealing with it, and I'm healing from it. And the future, I don't know where the future's taking me. I just buckle up and go for the adventure and see where it takes me. If it means writing another book or it means taking a trip or getting a job in a third world country, that's where I go. I'm, you know, moving forward from all of the trauma that I've lived through. I don't want to forget it. Mm, hmm. A lot of people like I would you change anything? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change a single thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 There's a difference between remembering and being aware of it and being bitter and hating it. And I think that's the important part,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 58:53 yeah. And speaking of the past is not it's not a bad thing. It because the past is part of us, right? We were little kids once upon a time like there, you know, not everything was all bad. There was good moments. You know, there was more bad times for me than there was good, but there were good moments. I had good memories of spending with my grandparents on the farm and, you know, playing in the wrecked up cars and pretending I was a race car driver and stuff like that, you know, playing in the mud, making mud pies, putting them in the oven. You know, these were good memories that I have, you know, so those are what I hold on to. I hold on to the good stuff. I don't hold on to that heavy stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 59:33 Well, at least at this point, what do you see in the future for Miss Liz   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 59:39 travel? I so want to travel. I, you know, I've traveled the world, well, 72 countries, in this rocking chair. I would like to take this rocking chair in person. I would like to have a stage. I would like to have people come and talk and share their stories on a miss Liz's platform stage. That is the goal for Miss Liz.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 To travel and to really meet people from a lot of new and different places,   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:07 absolutely, and meet all the guests I had on Tea Time. That is one of my goals. So when the universe gets on my good side, maybe I'll be traveling and meeting you face to face one day, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 or we'll travel up there when, when we can, I know right now there are many challenges because of our governments putting roadblocks in the way. I've applied to speak at several events in Canada, and I've been told right now, well, the political situation, political situation is such that we can't really bring anybody in from the United States. And, you know, I understand that. I I think that there's so much to add, but I also understand that they don't want to take those chances, and that's fine.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:00:48 Yeah, we've been told the same, no traveling, vice versa. There's so, you know, it will calm itself down. We just got to give it some   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 time. It will, you know, it isn't going to go on forever, and we'll just have to deal with it. Well, if you had the opportunity to go back and give your younger Miss Liz some advice, what would it be? Drink More tea. Drink More tea of the liquid kind or the other kind.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:17 No. Drink the real stuff like drink, the beverage, drink the real stuff. Like, you know, speaking of tea all the time, you know, my favorite tea is jasmine tea. I wish I could drink more jasmine tea, but when I drink jasmine tea, it brings it brings back a memory of my Uma, and it it's hard for me so but drink more tea, like, actually sit down and have more conversations with OMA and see what else OMA had in   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 the back there for her. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, I, I must say, I've never been a coffee drinker, but I got converted to drinking tea years ago, and I've been doing it ever since. My favorite is PG Tips, black tea, and I can get it from Amazon, so we do it.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:01:59 That's a good one too. Yeah, I'm not a real big tea drinker, but guys, I do know a little bit about tea.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:06 Well, I drink it more because it's a hot drink and it's got less calories than hot chocolate. Otherwise, I would be drinking hot chocolate all the time. But after September 11, I tend to clear my throat a lot, so drinking hot beverages helps, and I've just never liked coffee like I've learned to like tea, so I drink tea.   Elizabeth Gagnon ** 1:02:26 Yeah. What's for you? Yeah, he's good for you. Look what it did to me. It made me who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 There you are in so many ways. Well, I want to than

Hello Ladies and Gents!Love Jones isn't polite…it's unapologetic hunger, sleepless nights, and unshakable desire. In this episode, I take you through the pulse of what it feels like to crave someone in every language…whispers, fingertips, moans, and laughter. This is more than love, more than lust—it's the ache that consumes, the addiction you never want to cure. Mm, enjoy

This episode is a rebroadcast. Dusty has handpicked episodes from the archive to air while she and Ash are on their annual summer break. New episodes resume in September! Cam takes Ash and listeners on a field trip to the land of ADHD causation, introducing listeners to Cam's own Meaning Maker (MM). Veteran listeners will recall the challenge for ADHDers to get to causation from the Mt. Rainier Model introduced in episode 10. They will also recall Cam speaking about his Big Idea Generator (BIG). The Meaning Maker is first cousin to the BIG and is a part of everyone's belief system - the neural system that makes sense of the world and that rationalizes choices and actions. Confirmation bias is a result of selectively picking data to reinforce a position. ADHD can super-charge the MM by plugging into our contextual processor. Informed by urgency and ARC activity, we can infuse our belief systems with “what if!” scenarios that generate doubt and worry. This gives the MM a spotlight on the stage - and an undeniable big signal. Cam shares his own experience as a teacher more than 20 years ago when his Meaning Maker was very active, reinforcing a story that entrenched him in a perspective of one down. Ash explores this experience with Cam, extracting valuable understanding and perspective. When Cam understood the presence of the MM and what gave it its power, he was able to short circuit the system. The hosts leave listeners with steps to discover and observe their own Meaning Makers. Episode links + resources: Join the Community | Become a Patron Our Process: Understand, Own, Translate. About Asher, Dusty and Cam For more of the Translating ADHD podcast: Episode Transcripts: visit TranslatingADHD.com and click on the episode Follow us on Twitter: @TranslatingADHD Visit the Website: TranslatingADHD.com

Tựa Đề: Mở Mắt Để Thấy Mùa Gặt; Kinh Thánh: Giăng 4:1-41; Tác Giả: Mục Sư Trần Đình Ái; Loạt Bài: Hội Thánh Báp-Tít Trung Tâm

On this episode of Backroads & Bonfires, Adam goes solo podding and kicks us off with a poem to welcome back college football. He discusses how he is adjusting well to heat as he ages, recaps his trip to the great Iowa State Fair, more auction gigs and lists all of the things he is most looking forward to about the fast-approaching fall season. In the meat, Mm!, Adam gives his full thoughts and breakdown on the upcoming Iowa Hawkeye football season. From offense, defense, special teams and his prediction on what the Hawks' record will be. Football season is back! Hut Hut! Love y'all. Intro Music "Upbeat" by Jon Luc Hefferman (No changes  were  made)  License Link    (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/legalcode) Outro Music    "Quittin' Time" by Patrick Lee (No changes were made) License Link  (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/legalcode)

By their very nature, the metals, minerals and mining industries have often set the standard for jobs that are at once remote, dirty and dangerous, and as such are facing a particularly acute shortage of workers as Baby Boomers retire. But new cutting-edge technologies such as AI are poised to change that outlook, according to Derain Pillay, global vertical lead for the MM&M markets with Honeywell Process Solutions. Control's Keith Larson caught up with Derain at the company's recent Honeywell Users Group meeting in San Antonio to discuss how technology is reshaping how work gets done in this essential global industry.

Kiera is joined by Zaneta Hamlin, owner and founder of Cusp Dental Boutique. Zaneta, who built her practice from the ground up, shares with Kiera her journey, reflecting on what got her to this point and what she would've changed and focused more on if she were to start over again. Plus, Zaneta talks about how she's turned even the smallest items and exchanges into branding opportunities for her practice. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today I am so giddy. I have one of my favorite humans in the entire world. Like that is not an exaggeration. She's got a million dollar smile. She's one of the funniest people I've ever met. She makes me laugh all the time. She really does. Like Zaneta when you smile, is the world just makes like it's just a happier place. Zaneta Hamlin, one of my favorite doctors. This woman can brand like nobody's business. Surprise fact, I even have her all of her branding sitting here. I have her stickers.   I love the business card. That was my favorite thing that you added in for me was a business card for me. But Zaneta Hamlin, one of our clients, one of my faves, welcome to the podcast today. How's your day today?   Zaneta Hamlin (00:39) Great, how are you? I'm happy to be here in the chat.   Kiera Dent (00:43) I'm so happy to have you. My day has been amazing. It's been podcast day and by far my favorite podcast is you today. So I'm really, really excited because I have wanted this podcast to come out for so long. So Zaneta I don't want to like do you a disservice. I just said a few things as to why I wanted you to come on the podcast. Like I said, being a part of our community, I just watch you and something I've noticed about you since literally the day one is you dress incredibly well and you're always branded. Like you're a walking   machine of branding every event I've seen you at you have Cusp Dental I know where you are I know your colors you have everything branded you think so intentionally but you're just an amazing human so Zaneta kind of tell us and honestly I want to go with you and do ⁓ dentistry in other countries that's something that you and I are gonna do outside of that so to fill our listeners in a little bit Zaneta kind of walk them through who is Zaneta Hamlin how did you get to be into Cusp Dental just kind of give us a little background on who you are the dentistry you do   Zaneta Hamlin (01:29) Absolutely.   Kiera Dent (01:40) Whatever you feel like sharing, this is Zaneta's time. And I want everybody to get to know you because you're just an amazing human. So walk us through, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?   Zaneta Hamlin (01:46) Bye.   So am   a second generation dentist. ⁓ I started off as an associate. I went to my dad's alma mater, went to Howard University College of Dentistry around this area in the Virginia Beach Hampton Roads area. I would say Howard is the real HU, so that's going to probably offend some people great. Yes, yes.   Kiera Dent (02:01) Amazing.   That's okay. She's here for it. There's no shame. Zenita, this is your podcast. You get to say whatever you want   today. No filtered.   Zaneta Hamlin (02:19) yeah. So second gen dentist, ⁓ I started off as an associate. So I associated for about nine years, ⁓ until I, ⁓ birthed the idea for Cusp Dental Boutique. It was initially going to be an acquisition. That was the plan I was with, ⁓ coaching prior, but it was more, it was geared more towards, ⁓ acquisitions and   That didn't work out for me. ⁓ just, everything just didn't work out. And the type of practice that I was looking to create ⁓ just didn't fit in the other practices. So ⁓ my husband actually found the space that we are in ⁓ and we just built it from scratch. It was a shell. ⁓ And then we have Cusp Dental Boutique. Now, ⁓ yeah, I do like to brand. So.   Kiera Dent (03:12) That's amazing.   Zaneta Hamlin (03:17) you   Kiera Dent (03:17) Please do, I want you   to, because I also hope people hear, like I said, I brought you on for a reason, Zaneta. This is where I want you to brag. I want you to share about who you are, because I think so often we don't, and so many times dentists feel they're doing it all alone. So trying to bring different dentists, different perspectives. So brag, Zaneta, I'm gonna brag about you too. So this is your show, brag as you should.   Zaneta Hamlin (03:38) I do love my practice. I love how we do things differently. There's a lot of technology. mean, lately I've had a few temps in my office. And so just having the temps has shown me how much my office does that others don't. And so, the expectations are bit higher with what they should do. ⁓ But everyone comes in and like, my gosh, this doesn't feel like a dental office. doesn't smell like a dental office.   ⁓ even the swag they get is different. Now, yeah, I'll give the Cusp Dental Boutique chapstick or things like that, but the koozies, the ⁓ wine tumblers, because you can have wine. ⁓ I think one of the things that you might be referring to is ⁓ my luggage ⁓ cover.   Kiera Dent (04:18) Why not? Why not?   Yes. Yes.   Zaneta Hamlin (04:30) I   do have that because look, your bags, when you check a bag, even if you are rolling, like it's carry on, people see it as you're dragging it wherever. So it's advertising, you know, they might be in a different state. You might come visit Virginia Beach. You what? I was on a flight to Detroit and I saw, you know, this Cusp Dental Boutique. I want to see where that is. Maybe they have an emergency. Top of mind.   Kiera Dent (04:37) Mm-hmm.   don't   disagree with you. This is why I brought you on the podcast because the way you think about branding and advertising, like I remember meeting you first at this conference and like you're repping it. Like you've got your Cusp Dental Boutique and it makes me so happy because that's also, think why you do so well in your practice. Like you love what you've built. You can see the love and the passion and the pieces. Yeah. The luggage. just wrote it down. Dental A Team needs to freaking put those on because we travel everywhere. Think of how many dentists are traveling to conferences and we are not branding. So   Zaneta Hamlin (05:22) All the time, yes.   Kiera Dent (05:27) Dental A Team, if you're listening, which most of them do, ⁓ surprise, maybe it'll be your holiday present. Shelbi, we need to get these. So, you know, there we go. Yeah, it's brilliant.   Zaneta Hamlin (05:33) There we go.   They are great.   Nobody's gonna rep your brand better than you. So if you aren't proud of it, you know, so you gotta rep it. And yeah, I put it on anything. We went, ⁓ our family went on a Disney cruise, our first ever Disney cruise. And I just randomly saw, cause ⁓ a sorority sister of mine told me we need those ⁓ clips for your beach chair to put your towel on so it doesn't fly away.   Kiera Dent (05:45) Mm-hmm. I love it.   ⁓   right. Of course. Of course you can.   Zaneta Hamlin (06:03) Well, I happen to find there are stretchy versions, like ⁓ elastic versions, and you can customize them. So of course, mine, one side says   Cusp Dental Boutique, the other side says Cusp Untethered. So either way, you're getting something. And it went on. So on the Disney Cruise, you could see four chairs. Cusp Dental Boutique, Cusp Untethered. You know.   Kiera Dent (06:19) Something.   Amazing.   It's incredible. So, okay. So I think Zaneta, something that you do so well is you built this practice. And I mean, even, I think people seeing the clips of this online, I mean, you doesn't even look like you're sitting in a dental practice. Like you're in this very different vibe, different feel. So walk me through how has it been being an owner? And then I want to go through like what have been the struggles, what have been the good things? Like you have this amazing space, people you've got raving fans.   Like you have built this boutique dental practice, which I think is so great to stand out when I think dentistry has been a little bit tricky. And I think you're doing a great job of that. And then we're going to pivot to like some of your favorite brand. I mean, she's already listed her luggage covers. can like literally Zaneta. feel like if there's something she can put a logo on, she will like, it is like, Oh, I could put this here. I could have a bracelet. I mean, your jacket, I guarantee you there's a Cusp Dental pin. I guarantee. Yep.   Zaneta Hamlin (07:15) Really.   yeah,   I mean the back of my jean jacket says untethered on it.   Kiera Dent (07:26) It's all there. She's constantly, it's constant. Like Zaneta, I think you are one of the few people that thinks in their branding so much that it is a part of you. It's what you do. It's who you are. It's not like I'm Zaneta and here's work and here's Zaneta. It's I am these pieces. So walk me through, you started this scratch start. How's it been going?   Zaneta Hamlin (07:27) The symbol is right there.   you   Kiera Dent (07:50) The wins, the stresses, the struggles, like where are you at on the business ownership path?   Zaneta Hamlin (07:56) I mean, there have been ups and downs. I will be very honest and frank about that. I've never been a business owner. So this is my first kick at it. ⁓ But I'm very frank with my team, like, hey, guys, I'm learning too. And I rely on them to also give me their feedback. Now, I always take it into consideration. It doesn't always mean like, hey, we're going to do what you recommended this time around. But I do like to listen to them and see what they think, because they have great ideas. But you won't know unless you actually listen to them.   It's been up and down. Like when people opt to leave the practice to go somewhere for whatever reason, ⁓ I've taken it personally in the past. Now, ⁓ my gosh, I mean, hopefully Dana has seen how much I've grown in that department.   Kiera Dent (08:38) I was,   I would agree. Dana's been coaching you for quite a while and Zenita, I will even say not being in the day to day with you all the time, you have grown exponentially. It used to be this, I remember being in the Dr. Masterminds, different places. It was just this like complete stress. And I feel like you have definitely grown as a business owner, as a leader, and I'm really proud of you. And you seem happier, but you still haven't lost your flair of like loving your practice. Like it didn't jade you even though it stressed you out. And agree, Dana, Dana will for sure be watching this and she will be so proud of you.   She already is, but you have definitely grown in the time that we have known you. And I'm really proud of you because I don't think everybody does grow. Some people just stay stagnant, but you have wanted to grow. You've wanted to evolve. You listen to what people say. You've made friends in our community. You and Christie have become BFFs. Christie Moore, she's been on the podcast too. Super excited to hang out in person, but you do a good job of executing and implementing Zenita. You're very humble. You're very coachable. And you're also just a ton of fun. Like you keep the Zenita piece of you while also growing and evolving too.   Zaneta Hamlin (09:38) Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's there's no way you can't change stuff if you don't accept it. Because if it was working the way you were doing it, then why are you coaching? So no, it's it's been up and down. I've learned to delegate. I wasn't doing that before. And I'm still learning to ⁓ give deadlines because sometimes I will suggest that something needs to be done and not say when I need it done by and in my mind, that means you've done it already.   Kiera Dent (09:45) Right.   Zaneta Hamlin (10:04) ⁓ so working on that, but I am doing better with letting others, ⁓ do things for me and that I don't have to do all of it. And I have a great team that understands that I will do it all if not, if they don't step in and they will be like, no, no, no, I got it. You go do something else or maybe go eat. about that? so, ⁓ I think it's who you surround yourself with that. ⁓   Kiera Dent (10:18) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yeah. Good.   Zaneta Hamlin (10:33) helps and like you mentioned like Christie, for example, I was talking to another doctor when I went to a master class a couple of weeks ago for the AGD and he was telling me like, hey, when you are looking to move your practice into different levels, like moving up, like for example, me, you know, trying to add an associate and grow, he was like, talk to people who have done it or people who ⁓   Kiera Dent (10:54) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (11:02) have been in that seat before, or coaches that can help you. And I was like, well, definitely my coach can help me with that. And to like, you know, talking to somebody like Kristy, who's been there, done that, probably even read a book about it, you know. So ⁓ it's who you surround yourself with too, that can help you.   Kiera Dent (11:20) Yeah, no, I think you've done an amazing job and it's just fun. It's fun to watch you evolve as a leader. It's fun to watch you. I mean, I remember some of our first emails were I'm staying here so late. Everything's on my plate. I don't know how to do this to now hearing you of I delegate and I built this culture of a team that knows who I am. They give it had to change yourself as Anita. That's something I love about you is I don't feel you. There's been a huge change of Anita. I think there's been like Zenita 2.0 is Anita 3.0.   where you just keep like, keep the core of who you are, but you evolve as your business evolves and like letting the team know, yes, this is who I am and this is what I'm expecting. And I'm very honest and very frank. I think it's really helped you tremendously. And like, let's give some snaps. You are bringing in an associate. You are evolving your practice. You are growing into these things. And so if you were talking to somebody, say in your shoes, they just found this space, they found the shell. They're super excited. There's Anita, who you were at the beginning.   Zenita today, what would you maybe tell that practice owner of some things of like, hey, as the wiser version of me, this is what I would maybe do or I would execute on XYZ or I would do this again of something that I did. What would you say are some of those tips you would give maybe a Zenita coming in doing a similar path?   Zaneta Hamlin (12:36) probably would have learned to delegate earlier. I think, yeah. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (12:40) I agree.   Yeah, I remember   some long emails and some hard nights on NotDelegate and a lot of hours at the practice unnecessarily.   Zaneta Hamlin (12:48) Yeah   I was quick focusing it. Don't do quick,   you can, but why? know, like, I can't believe I did that and how much time I put, but it's interesting though, like some, the things that I have delegated, I'm still busy. I still have to do things. it's like, now I'm like, how did I have time to do that? Like, no wonder why I was stressed. No wonder why I wasn't sleeping, you know, like, so I would have definitely, ⁓   Kiera Dent (12:57) I agree. I agree.   Yes.   Zaneta Hamlin (13:20) delegated sooner. I would have gotten an aura ring earlier. That's something she knows talking to her about. I would have gotten that earlier. ⁓ But I also would have trusted my intuition more a earlier. I mean, I did, but not at the level in which I do now. Like, for example, if I extend an offer or like,   Kiera Dent (13:24) Right? ⁓ It works great. Yes, agreed. Okay.   Zaneta Hamlin (13:49) you know, I make a decision, because I like to make decisions pretty quickly. Like it's this and we're going with it, right? I don't go back and like ponder it like, oh, did I really make this mistake? Like, was this a mistake? Should I have done this? Should I have done that? I've had those thoughts before, but then I quickly am like, no, no, no, it's, this is the way we should go if an offer was made and it wasn't accepted.   Kiera Dent (13:53) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (14:17) It's because that wasn't for me and it probably would have been a headache. You know, I've gone down that route with like negotiations and stuff like that. And I thought to myself, hey, had that actually worked, it would have been a disaster. So I'm glad it didn't. So definitely ⁓ intuition, like leaning into that and just going with the flow.   Kiera Dent (14:35) Yeah.   Mm hmm. No, and I do. I do think that there's so many times that we feel like there's all these other experts, which I do agree like great job. Kudos to you. You you jumped into consulting and you hired coaches and you talk to mentors and talking about Sheena and Christie like you use your doctor community around you and you work with other mentors. But I do believe that there's an internal knowing that I think we often lose by thinking I've never done this before. So how am I supposed to know? But I do think that there's a core knowing that   I really love that you brought that up, that people really do need to trust themselves. They need to execute on that more. ⁓ So many people are like, well, someone told me I shouldn't do this. And I'm like, but you know, like you know what you need to do and you're gonna, you'll figure it out and it will work. So, okay, I love your story and I love what you've done. And I'm so happy that you're sharing with other people. And now I wanna pivot to, let's talk about your branding. Talk me through, you said everything is branding opportunities. Every single possible thing that you do.   Zaneta Hamlin (15:18) It doesn't feel right.   Kiera Dent (15:36) Like has this always been a part of you? Did it just come with buying the practice? And then I want you to walk through some of the specifics that you do of branding intentionally, maybe even like who you use or where you get these things. Like, I don't think people realize like marketing is a lot easier than they think it is. You did a scratch start. So you have had to figure out how to market yourself with no money. So kind of walk us through like, how have you done this? How has the marketing been for you? How has it been finding more new patients like?   Zaneta Hamlin (15:54) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (16:02) I don't know, whatever you want to take on this branding, because honestly, you are one of my queens of branding that I've met as a dentist. You do it so well. So walk me through just whatever, however you want to take this branding, marketing side of the business.   Zaneta Hamlin (16:15) No judgment. Okay. Ready? Okay. One of the cheapest things you can get and y'all don't, well, let's just go through it. So ⁓ pens. Okay. So I would go to Pens.com. They always run promos and stuff like that. Get some pens, get your favorite pen. ⁓ they send you, they'll send you something. See exactly. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (16:17) No judgment. I'm ready.   No judgment, we already put it there.   You do.   I have it. It's literally right there.   Zaneta Hamlin (16:42) What I, how I started was, mean, of course, Studio 88 did my logo, my colors and all that stuff. That was a process to get to what it is now, right? Because there were different versions of it, right? And then I started putting it on pens. So here's what I would do. would, when I go to a restaurant, family, friends, myself, whatever, you know, they give you a pen, a Bic pen or some whatever pen.   Kiera Dent (17:08) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (17:10) I will sign with my pen and I will leave that pen.   Kiera Dent (17:13) You're so clever. Okay, keep going.   I want to hear all these ideas. I'm writing them down by the way. They're brilliant.   Zaneta Hamlin (17:20) So   I always have a bajillion pens on me in my purse or in my pocket. wear scrubs, so I have them in my pockets and stuff. Like even where, like my car, where I take my car to get it serviced or I'll change whatever. They've got my pens floating around too. The wine shop that I go to with, that I have membership at, they've got my pens. They always ask me, what color is coming out next? You know, like, cause I do different colors based on different seasons, as long as it's within brand.   Kiera Dent (17:45) Smart.   Zaneta Hamlin (17:48) So I can tell when that pen was from because we've only been orange orders. And black was the last order we had. We have a teal one now. That was a mistake, but still I have 500 of them. So we're gonna work through that. Yeah. And then I also did a partnership with a restaurant that's not too far from my office, half a mile away. They're out by the water. They gave me gift cards that I can give to new patients.   Kiera Dent (17:54) That's incredible.   So we're giving them out. Yeah.   Zaneta Hamlin (18:17) I gave them a boatload of pens. So when they are having people sign their checks or whatever, you know, they finished their eating and all that stuff, they've got a Cusp Dental Boutique pen that people usually jack, they steal those. And so they've got 200 to sort through, whatever. So that's how I really started getting the brand out. I would wear what I had, if know, if I had t-shirts or something, I would wear those. Now I have sweatshirts and stuff too.   Kiera Dent (18:24) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm   Zaneta Hamlin (18:48) But it was just really wherever I can show folks. When I go with my kids to their games or their school or whatever, I might have something. And people ask, ⁓ are you the one that owns? Yeah, hi, you should come to this. You know, just really, so it could be anything. mean, again, pen is a simple and easy thing to do to carry, not a huge investment.   Kiera Dent (19:03) Yeah.   Zaneta Hamlin (19:16) you know, do that. And then when Stanley does promotions and they customize them, you do that too. Yep. Yeah. And koozies are cheap. ⁓ I use ⁓ Citi Paper. They are in Alabama. A friend of mine, another business owner, she's a pediatric dentist. Quinn, sent them or referred them to me and ⁓   Kiera Dent (19:23) On brand, on color. Excellent.   Zaneta Hamlin (19:44) They do all of my koozies, whether it's the regular size koozie or the tall ones, which we did one season for a beach, because we're right by the water. ⁓ And then even like our goodie bags, we don't do the traditional goodie bags at the office. They're cotton, because also check out the environment. I have to come up with something for my patients who bring theirs back to reuse them. Like, hey, maybe if you bring your bag back, so we can just refill it with your supplies if you need it.   Kiera Dent (20:02) Yeah.   Cute.   Zaneta Hamlin (20:14) ⁓ But things like that have been great and people love it because it's different. Now I use mine for like when I travel for makeup, like my makeup brushes. It's, you know, I've had patients that will use it for their sunglasses. We have Cusp sunglasses, which patients use when they're sitting in the chair anyway to protect their eyes and 90 % of the time they want to walk out with it anyway. So again, take it. has my logo.   Kiera Dent (20:25) Mm-hmm.   Take   it, please.   Zaneta Hamlin (20:44) Yeah,   take it. Yeah, by all means. So yeah, and sunglasses can be pretty cheap too.   Kiera Dent (20:47) ⁓   Mm-hmm. So what do you feel? Okay pens koozies sunglasses shirts sweatshirts reusable bags What do you feel are if I'm like on a budget? Pens obviously what else you feel has been I mean and also I'm hearing you you know your population You're by the beach. So you're thinking in beach like they're gonna want drinks. They don't want sand on those So koozies are gonna be great. Keep them cold. They're there   Zaneta Hamlin (21:02) Mm-hmm. Yes.   Kiera Dent (21:14) the towel thing at the beginning of the podcast. Well, yeah, that makes sense because you're at the beach. People need those are going to use those are going to see them. ⁓ I like what things would you say if I'm on a budget are going to be the best bang for my buck? I love the Stanleys. I didn't even think about like you're watching promotions on every single thing that your patients would use like sunglasses, clever. Again, you're a beach community. So what has been your best ROI?   Zaneta Hamlin (21:33) Yeah.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (21:39) because branding is like awareness, but then there's also like, I need patients to come back with that. So what do you feel has been your best ROI that you could say these patients came from this if I could only choose like one or two of these items?   Zaneta Hamlin (21:53) If we, my team probably would have to help me with this, but if it's based on what people have asked for, I would say it's chapstick.   Kiera Dent (22:04) Interesting.   Zaneta Hamlin (22:05) Yeah, because you don't have to be at the beach to use chapstick like chaps you should keep these puppies moist like drink your water and Moisturize your lips ⁓ SPF all the things the chapstick folks have asked for like hey Do you guys still do the chapsticks because I think and I don't know I know there are different types, but the one we do is like the big daddy one I have one in my ⁓ pocket somewhere, but ⁓   Kiera Dent (22:14) Yeah.   You   Zaneta Hamlin (22:34) Um, people really like that. You know, someone once someone said to me, Oh yeah, a friend of mine was using it and I just liked how it went on. And, you know, she said she got at her dental appointment. I was like, Oh yeah. Okay. I'm glad you came because would you like one today after your appointment? can give you one.   Kiera Dent (22:52) because we've got   some and you can share them with all your friends.   Zaneta Hamlin (22:56) Yeah, so I think that has been great.   And then the koozies are the second ones because people ask for that again. You could be anywhere. I mean, my neighbors use the koozies when we're out in the neighborhood, you know, hanging out with the kids and stuff like that. So yeah. ⁓ look at that.   Kiera Dent (23:16) Mm-hmm.   Look at that. She has it. I'm telling you, this woman walks in her logo. I would not be shocked if you told me you had pajamas in it.   Zaneta Hamlin (23:28) That's it.   That's a good idea.   Kiera Dent (23:32) There you   go. Pajamas. know our team has been asking me for workout clothes, like tank tops. Um, and then also they want the branded shoes of Dental A Team shoes. So that way they're like, we do a different one every single year. Cause that way, like your team is always wearing stuff also. So like if it's stuff that they do, yes. Um, you can do that. We also found out you can make a custom Nikes. Uh, you can make other customs that.   Zaneta Hamlin (23:47) Yeah Chuck says it converse   Can you put lingo on   it?   Kiera Dent (24:01) So those are things, again, I haven't done it yet, but write down the, get your notebook. ⁓ But honestly, I think Zaneta, some of these things, even post podcast, if you can send me and we'll include it in the show notes, some of the suppliers that you use and some of the ideas that you have. like we've listed off, she's got the Stanleys that she brands, there's the ChapStick. But if you looked and if you saw on the video and if you miss it, it's not the cheap ChapStick. Like this is not a cheap ChapStick. There's some dental offices that give.   Zaneta Hamlin (24:29) They have...   Kiera Dent (24:30) Gross chapstick.   Zaneta Hamlin (24:31) yeah, the minis. I know!   Kiera Dent (24:33) The minis or the ones that just like get in your mouth and they taste disgusting or they like don't actually moisturize. They almost like dry it out worse. So you're like putting it on. ⁓ You know what I'm talking about. Excellent. Do you hear this? She's coming to our doctor in-person mastermind, which is in September and we're super excited about it. It's a doctor in leadership one and Zaneta is already thinking I'm bringing it for everybody. And that's not because these dentists.   Zaneta Hamlin (24:40) Yeah.   Yes. you're getting one. I think I'm bringing some for everybody when I come to the meeting.   and you get a chance to.   Kiera Dent (25:00) These dentists are not her client. We don't even live by her, but yet all of us are going to be wearing it. She never knows where one of us is going to be. I'm going to be on the airplane sitting there flying out to the East coast. Someone's going to see it. They're going to look it up cause they're going to love her logo. And lo and behold, they'll be like, ⁓ I saw some girl putting this chapstick on, on a plane. You never know where people are going to be. And that's very easy. I thought your restaurant idea was so clever and like pens. I did not even think about signing with your own and just leaving it there constantly.   the luggage, our team's getting luggage carriers. Like that's going to be part of their standard onboarding. Cause we fly all the time and dentists are on planes all the time. So Zenita.   Zaneta Hamlin (25:32) Thank you.   Dentists,   their assistants, their office managers, their spouses, somebody, it's fun. And I saw this cute lady walking by with this and took a picture of it and sent it to their spouse or whoever, best friend. Have you been in this company? Or why aren't you doing that?   Kiera Dent (25:43) Mm-hmm.   Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's a very, it's   so clever, Zenita. I think, okay, so what's your most random favorite thing that maybe wasn't the best ROI, but you just loved it. It was one of your favorite like things that you created that's been branded. I mean, you got a jean jacket that's unbranded. You've got your shirt, which is a super darling shirt. Like what have you loved that was like, yeah. And then you also said you got sweatshirts.   Zaneta Hamlin (26:16) Thank you, you really sound interesting.   Kiera Dent (26:20) What else do you have? Like, what was your favorite?   Zaneta Hamlin (26:23) well, I really like our, wine, ⁓ tumblers. I have a Yeti that has, ⁓ Cusp Dental Boutique on it, but we have tumblers or two versions again, depending on which one you break out. know when you got it because we only rotate certain things and we've, we've done some promos where like our Cusp Circle folks get, which we have to get better about it. But when people do our in office, ⁓   membership, yep, they get those things. So like the t-shirt, I'm not going to just give to like our regular PPO patient. Like it's going to be, you know, our membership folks that get those, like the nicer branded items. But I really like the ⁓ koozies or not koozies, the tumblers. ⁓ I use it often enough. ⁓   Kiera Dent (27:01) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   often enough, all the favorite things and you can have it as   a business write-off because you want them. They're branded. You pull them out for parties. You can put them on social media. Obviously, it's a complete business write-off. I agree. Yeah.   Zaneta Hamlin (27:24) Excellent. Yeah. I had   my previous coach, she would put when she would go to the beach or wherever she would go, she would take pictures with her wine tumbler in different places. I did like a, I think it's in my ⁓ Cusp merch on my Instagram, where it just shows people with Cusp Dental Boutique things in different places. ⁓ And sometimes I'll still do that. Like I'll set it somewhere or whatever.   Kiera Dent (27:40) Ha ha ha!   Zaneta Hamlin (27:54) I've had patients who will send me pictures of themselves out in the wild with random Cusp Dental Boutique things. yeah, but the wine tumbler has been great because no one else has that. no dental offices, you know, like it's something you wouldn't think of for a dental office. So yeah.   Kiera Dent (28:09) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Totally. Well, and as you're   saying, I hope people picked up on, I wrote down some notes that I think you maybe don't even realize you're doing, but you don't call it a membership plan. It's called Cusp Dental Boutique Circle. So it's your, and as soon as you said it, I was like, that's her membership plan. But notice the way you say it, Zaneta, is you want your people to be part of your group. It's a community, it's a group, it's not, and like they're getting the special stuff. They're getting something that's different than everybody else. So you're setting it apart for people that are a part of your inner circle.   Zaneta Hamlin (28:27) Yes.   Kiera Dent (28:46) Then it said Cusp merch and I was like, probably gonna start selling your merch like honestly, but right now it's just on social media, which then helps patients realize they go, they tag you, you're gonna be putting it on there. People will see it. ⁓ You also are very clever. You said two versions and I was like, that's so smart because then people are going to want things at different times. They're gonna see other people getting it, which then creates retention of people wanting to come back because they saw the merchandise. They saw different things.   Zaneta Hamlin (28:51) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (29:15) but also you strategically know like when were, when did I see them? Where were these pieces based on what they're, they're having? So it's a very like thought out process that I don't even think people, I don't even know if you realize like the depths of the pieces you're doing that are just very fun. And it seems like you just have a ton of fun doing it too.   Zaneta Hamlin (29:22) there.   I do. mean, it's, I don't know. It's, I, now I will say if you are wearing your brand, you can't be outside acting crazy. So you can be fun.   Kiera Dent (29:41) I would agree. I was going to say, do you ever get sick of like having people be   like, hi, who are you? Like, I'm like, no, sometimes I want to go incognito on a plane. Like I don't want anybody to know me. So.   Zaneta Hamlin (29:48) Yes, right. I   do have those times. Like tomorrow, I'm supposed to be going to Cape Charles with my husband. It's our wedding anniversary. I have gone back and forth because we're going to be visiting an artillery. I'm like, do I go? Because I will wear my Cusp baseball cap. I have it in three colors. My team, some of my team members have them.   Kiera Dent (30:01) No.   Thank   Zaneta Hamlin (30:15) I think one   of our videos, were wearing it for like, it's our like new patient welcome video we have for wearing the hats. But my husband wears his often. But I've thought, do I go to this place wearing my Cusp Dental Boutique hat? Because it has the symbol in the front ⁓ and the name of the practice in the back. ⁓ Or do I go incognito? Nobody should know who I am. But the Eastern Shore,   Kiera Dent (30:42) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (30:43) is close enough and we do have patients that have come from there. So just from talking to you, I'm thinking that I'm probably going.   Kiera Dent (30:50) at least have   like, there'll be a little Cusp Dental Boutique cameo if not the full show. So yeah, of course she's taking pens.   Zaneta Hamlin (30:55) I'm also taking pens. So I'm going to be leaving them at the   distillery strategically and the restaurant. ⁓   Kiera Dent (31:02) The pen, the pen.   And I will say, Zaneta, I mean, you shipped this to me at Summit, because this is where it came from. We were at Summit and I was like, I need a notebook. And you messaged in the chat, I saw it come through, Zaneta said, I'm sending you a notebook. And lo and behold, this shows up in like the super cute notebook. I still have it. It's got a beautiful, I mean, it's a real nice pen, Zaneta. She did, that's something else I'm noticing with you. You're not scrimping. Like this is a very heavyweight pen. It's a nice feel pen.   Zaneta Hamlin (31:14) It did.   Kiera Dent (31:32) which also is on brand with a Cusp Dental Boutique office. You're not going for this like hot, like you're not going for the burn and churn, which is fine. If you were, it'd be a different type of pen. Your stickers are very high end stickers. Your business card is high end. It's on brand. There's the untethered. There's the Cusp Dental Boutique. Like just, I mean, you guys, I still have these. They're very nice. They're cute. They are not, I feel like I'm selling Cusp Dental Boutique. Like I feel like we're on an infomercial. Like here, here we are.   Zaneta Hamlin (31:59) Please keep going.   Kiera Dent (32:02) But I think something like this pen is compared to some of these crummy ones, like, you know, Pens.com, they do send you some really junky ones. They also send you some really nice ones. But I've been in offices writing with pens, like from the Pens.com, like they ship them to me. I'll have a rose gold one. I'll have a white one. And in offices, the dental assistant's like, I love your pen. And I'm like, well, you can have it. Here you go. Like take it, write it, share it with everybody. But I do think there's something to be said. You do nice things.   Zaneta Hamlin (32:10) Thank you. Yeah.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (32:31) rather than doing just cheap things to slap a brand, but your brand is higher end. Your brand is a nicer brand. So you're making sure it's very intentional with your brand.   Zaneta Hamlin (32:42) think when you are going to brand your items, and I get it, it depends on which season you're in in your practice, right? But when you are going to put your name on something, you want it to represent you well. And so yes, the things that I have done are probably, you know, I will always say they're top tier. But some of these things you can also get when they go on sale. Like they'll send me stuff like, it's now 85 cents.   Kiera Dent (32:48) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (33:11) you know, to get this pen or 50 cents for that pen. I'm like, oh shoot, get it, get it now. We're gonna get this color. This is gonna be this season or 2024. This is the color, you know. So it's just, and it's something I think it's probably my mother, cause she's always like, like if I'm gonna go out with her, like sometimes I wanna just dress down and wear sweatpants, right? She's like, where are you going? You're not following me like that. You know, and so it's like, okay, all right, I get it. Like I gotta represent you and myself well.   Kiera Dent (33:20) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   You   Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (33:41) So yeah, for things you're gonna put your logo on, you do wanna make sure it's something that people are gonna want, that it looks good and it represents you. So if you can't, maybe hold out till you can get the one that you really want. Because if it's crappy and you don't even like it and you're not gonna use it, why get it? Save your money, invest it in something else. Get AI.   Kiera Dent (33:55) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Get AI.   was a mastermind conversation we had this week. There is a podcast inspo'd by Zaneta. I will not say exactly which one. She knows, you guys can all guess on the podcast coming out. I recorded it right before this one, but Zaneta, I think it was just so fun. I really wanted to hear just about the different ideas. So anything you have of like, like you said, Pens.com or where you get your koozies or any of those. Cause I think that's also the hard part of there. So much out there, like who are the good brands? So even if you can send some of those that you like.   Zaneta Hamlin (34:06) You   Kiera Dent (34:30) I'd be happy to share those along. But I think if nothing else, I hope listeners today start thinking of differently of how can you brand your stuff? How can you do simple things? Where are your patients hanging out all the time that are the ideal patients you want? Not just patients, because we don't want all patients. We want your ideal patient. So like you said, they're going to be at the distillery. So you're going to a certain place. Like I picked up on that. You're not like I'm handing these out at, we won't say certain names.   Zaneta Hamlin (34:32) Yeah.   you   Kiera Dent (34:56) but I know you would not be dropping pens at certain places. You will be dropping them up. They don't go to all locations. They go to intentional locations where you know, it's like you said, there's a restaurant on the water. Well, I can already tell what type of a clientele is at that one based on where this restaurant is. So without Zaneta even telling you who her ICP is or ideal customer profile or avatar of patient, she's intentionally putting all of her brand in the places she wants people to be at her ideal patient base.   Zaneta Hamlin (35:10) You   Kiera Dent (35:25) to grow and Zaneta, mean, without even sharing any of your numbers, the fact that you've taken a scratch, start shell of a practice, built it with your own branding, your own pieces to now you're going to be bringing on an associate. think people can attest that some of the things you're doing clearly have been working really, really well. So thank you for sharing. I got excited. I I wrote a ton of notes over here and I hope other people did. And these are the type of conversations that come out at the mastermind.   Zaneta is talking about all of her problems, but then she's branding her Cuspware everywhere and all of us want it. So it goes like, you know, it's a good, it's a good thing. And honestly, Sheena needs to talk to you. She needs help on her branding. So and Sheena shout out to you. Just like, you know, you need like these are the things.   Zaneta Hamlin (35:57) Ha ha!   I would love to, but I do think   though, just, I probably picked this up from Studio 88, just because you're a dental practice, a dental office, you do not have to do everything dental. Like my logo doesn't have a tooth anywhere, right? It can, and that's great, but it doesn't have to. So just because it's a dental practice, like my logo or the things that I brand aren't specific to dental things. So my recommendation is,   Kiera Dent (36:20) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (36:33) Put your logo on something that you like and you would use outside of work. That is the best way to market your practice is on things that you would even want to use. It doesn't have to be like things you would expect from a dental office. You know what I mean? Like, hence the rumblers and yeah, the wine stuff.   Kiera Dent (36:52) right? The wine. Yep, yep. It's   stuff that you like, but also what I think is important is we often attract the people that are like us and as patients. And so Zaneta is doing things that make her happy, that make her want to do it, that are going to attract people that are very similar to her. Not everyone's going to love this pen. There will be some of you that will be like, that's too thick, that's too fat. Like I don't like how that one writes. And you would prefer another style of pen.   but people that like this high end vibe feel where it's this gel. mean, I already know Tiffany would love this pen and in the other colors. I also love that you do different colors. It's so clever, like so many fun things and you just have fun, but you do it. I'm really proud of you on an overhead budget. Good job. Like when it's on sale, when these things like, not just buying the Stanleys, you're literally being an intentional business owner too, which I think shows that you can do branding and marketing on like within an overhead budget.   and still have a ton of fun and make beautiful, high quality things. I mean, your logo just stands out even in this video. It's strong. It's, it's Anita. It's beautiful. And it just definitely represents who you are as a person too.   Zaneta Hamlin (38:00) And the final thing I'll mention about that is not every, like right now I'm the only one with the Stanley, but I will say my, if I make more of these, cause I wanted to try it out. I wanted to see how it would do. And my team members were like, I love that. You there are certain things that only squad members have. So like, right. So you want to get it. Like there's certain jackets or sweatshirts that we have.   Kiera Dent (38:14) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (38:28) You only get that if you're on my team. So ⁓ there are certain things you and like this t-shirt patients don't get this, you know, and it has our ⁓ humble hearts, skilled hands at the back. If they're wearing it out, they're like, well, where'd you get that shirt? Even if a patient from Cusp Circle wants a shirt, theirs is a little bit different, right? So again, strategically, you know, no, how'd you that? Cause only team members have that or whatever. So.   Kiera Dent (38:41) I love it.   Mm-hmm.   ⁓ Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (38:56) If it's a little bit more expensive, yeah, maybe do that for your team during the holidays or their anniversary ⁓ or their birthday or something like that ⁓ that you're not just giving to anybody else.   Kiera Dent (39:05) Mm-hmm.   It's really clever. So for birthdays and anniversaries, do you have swag or gifts? I'm guessing it's all Cusp Dental Boutique. So tell us kind of about that. I mean, I didn't mean to go down this path, but I'm just very curious.   Zaneta Hamlin (39:20) So, not always, so give me some credit there, not always. our first, so for my office, the first anniversary, you get a Marc Jacobs tope.   Kiera Dent (39:24) Yeah, yeah. Okay.   I love it. I love it. No, there is no judgments   they needed. These are the things that make offices stand out. I love it.   Zaneta Hamlin (39:37) It's the mini though. So they get,   it's the maybe, I guess it's the small. So ⁓ far I've given four of those out. But anyway, you get that in whatever color. I order them, get them in bulk during the holidays. So I have them hidden somewhere in my office. So whenever someone's anniversary is, I can get in, I know what color they want, I can ask, and then they get that for their first anniversary. Second anniversary, what I've done is, ⁓   Kiera Dent (39:51) Mm-hmm.   Zaneta Hamlin (40:06) I have, we did like the, I think it's like the Turkish towels, because again, beach, and then ⁓ city paper put my logo on it. It's in like leather or something like that on the side. ⁓ So they have that, and you know, the Turkish towels have like, it's like tied at the bottom or whatever, like the things hanging off of it. So we did that in a wine. So the wine shop that I go to, they custom made a, they, brought the towel.   Kiera Dent (40:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   No.   Zaneta Hamlin (40:35) They put that in there with, so my team members that have gotten to their second year anniversary, they fill out a questionnaire from the wine shop that tells, ask them specifically what kind of wines they like. We put that in the box with other goodies from the wine shop. So it might be like truffle almonds or whatever that will pair well and little things based on what they like. And then that goes with it. And so that was year two.   ⁓ I'm still thinking what's gonna happen for those that make it to year three, ⁓ but it's always gonna be something different. They'll get at least something that has Cusp on it. It's just the first anniversary has the Marc Jacobs tote. And that started from like a joke that we had in the office, because people would walk around with these Marc Jacobs. And my admin at the time, Rachel, she was great before she moved. She had, and it's on social media somewhere where,   Kiera Dent (41:05) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I love it.   Yeah   Zaneta Hamlin (41:32) She wrote on a brown paper bag, the tote, and she would walk around the office with it. And I was like, I get the hint. I get it. So that's when I bought it and I just made it a rule. Our first anniversary, that's what you get. So it's the same.   Kiera Dent (41:36) Mm-hmm.   You   It's amazing. And I love that you   think about like buying it on sale, there's different things. And then it's part of the Cusp. I love that it's called the Cusp squad. And you've got the Cusp Dental sort of like Boutique circle. So it's like you've got different names also for your groups that people want to be, which is so amazing. I have a friend and she does this in her dermatology and I didn't think about it. But she has it so exclusive that people like fly in from other places to go to her dermatology and be like, how did you get into joyful?   And she's just done a great job of branding it, of making things special, of making it to where this is only for, and I mean, I wrote so many notes because this is not my specialty. That's why I wanted you on the podcast, Anita, because I think hearing what other people do really can help us out. And like you are literally thinking in branding all day, every day, what can I do? But also doing it in such a beautiful aesthetic way as well that people want it. I mean, who doesn't want to Mark Jacobs bag that, yeah, I'm okay with it saying Cusp on it. Like I'll take that, right? ⁓   It's a beautiful thing that people do want, which is amazing. I love it. Well, Zaneta, I adore you. Any last thoughts you have, anything on branding or business ownership or anything that you feel leaving our listeners today would put a nice pretty bow on this for you today, because I've loved it. I've enjoyed all the tactical pieces, so many different fun things, like something so far from what I normally talk about that just makes me excited and psyched ready to do this. So any last things you want to add, any advice, any pieces?   to put a on our podcast today.   Zaneta Hamlin (43:19) Just make it fun, get stuff that you would use, doesn't have to be dental related. mean, ⁓ yeah, you can check in with your team too. They might have some great ideas that you can use, but yeah, just have fun with it and be obnoxious as you want to with it. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (43:40) I love it.   Amazing. Well, Zaneta, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing. And I think this is just something really special about our dentist community of like people like you and Christie and Sheena and like, Jamin and all Kevin like so many cool amazing doctors that we get to hang out together. I didn't know how that community was going to shake. had visions of it becoming what it's been where you pop on your hair is always wrapped up because you're coming from patients on your computer hanging out.   Zaneta Hamlin (44:07) Yes.   Kiera Dent (44:09) And then all of a sudden I see the like eyes flash to the screen like what? And I'm supposed to do what? You guys want the what? But just like a fun community and having doctors like yourself that just bring special different ways. I think it's just amazing. So thank you for being on the Dental A Team's family. Thank you for being a part of our crew. It's just like, and thank you for sharing on the podcast today. I really appreciate you.   Zaneta Hamlin (44:30) Thank you for having me. Like, yeah, I'm glad Brandy got us to this point because, I'll definitely, I won't disappoint next month. I'll have some new ideas for you because my pin is going to be on, so you'll see that too, on my blazer.   Kiera Dent (44:41) I know you won't. Zaneta, I guarantee you. I can't wait.   I cannot wait. Yeah, you walk around with this pin. I'm telling you Zaneta dresses herself to the hilt with her brand and it's amazing. I love it every time and I never know what you're going to show up in and it's always different. You're always thinking but I also love that you highlighted because some people can go crazy and not be smart strategic business owners and you're able to do both and that's really what I wanted to highlight. So   Thank you and thank everyone. ⁓ And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Send me a one-way text about this episode! I'll give you a shout out or answer your question on a future episode.I am chatting with homemaker, writer, podcaster and baker of bread, Abigail Dodds. I was so honored when Abigail agreed to come on The Art of Home and share her unique story of home with us. She's been married to Tom for 23 years and they have 5 kids ranging from 21-12. In the margins of her vibrant Homelife, Abigail writes books and co-hosts the Home Fires podcast.We chat about so many fun things and Abigail's love of home and high view of God's design for womanhood shines through the stories and the wisdom she shares. NOTES & LINKSConnect with AbigailHome Fires Podcast | Apple | Spotify Instagram @abigail_doddsBooks by Abigail(A)Typical Woman; Free, Whole, and Called in ChristBread of Life; Savoring the All-Satisfying Goodness of Jesus through the Art of Bread MakingA Student's Guide to WomanhoodMentioned in This Episode:S1:E1 Homemaker Portrait | Dana Schamberger Blog Post with 3 free recipes!MM #9 | Read Great Books with Friends, Start a Virtual Book ClubLe Crueset Cookbook, OrangeSupport the showHOMEMAKING RESOURCES Private Facebook Group, Homemaker Forum Newsletter Archive JR Miller's Homemaking Study Guide SUPPORT & CONNECT Review | Love The Podcast Contact | Voicemail |Instagram | Facebook | Website | Email Follow | Follow The Podcast Support | theartofhomepodcast.com/support

Al and Kev talk about their favourite games this year so far Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:04:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:25:31: Game News 00:43:48: Story Of Seasons X Royal Zoological Society of Scotland 00:47:59: Mid-year Check-in 01:18:11: Outro Links Moonlight in Garland 1.0 Release Above Snakes Console Release Out and About Release Coral Island 1.2 Update Sugardew Island Dog Aether Wizard Life “Announcement” Trailer Fields of Mistria Merch Collection Story of Seasons x Royal Zoological Society of Scotland Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kev: My name is Kevin. (0:00:38) Al: And we are here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:41) Kev: Wooo! (0:00:43) Al: I’m back from my holiday. Hello. (0:00:45) Kev: You… from the Isle of Men… (0:00:49) Kev: I don’t know where you were. (0:00:49) Al: All the men. Yeah, I know that’s where I was. I love man, as usual. Yes, I’m back. (0:00:51) Kev: I don’t know where you were. (0:00:54) Kev: Okay. (0:00:56) Kev: Yeah. (0:00:58) Kev: The opposite of No Man’s Sky. (0:01:00) Al: Almanska, yeah. I’m melting because I got home and it’s apparently 25 degrees and that’s too hot for me. (0:01:01) Kev: Heh. Heh heh. (0:01:10) Kev: So, look, the people, you know a lot of Americans, (0:01:15) Kev: and we love to give you a hard time (0:01:16) Kev: because those are nothing numbers for us, (0:01:19) Kev: but I will say, you know, (0:01:20) Kev: I think something a lot of Americans easily overlook (0:01:24) Kev: is you’re pretty far up north. (0:01:26) Al: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m further north. I’m further (0:01:26) Kev: Well, like latitude-wise, right? (0:01:28) Kev: Like you’re Canada north, which gets frosty. (0:01:32) Al: north than all America except that last (0:01:33) Kev: Yeah. (0:01:36) Kev: Yeah, so, you know, that’s fair, (0:01:39) Kev: But, but we’re still going to. (0:01:40) Kev: I’m laughing, you know. (laughs) (0:01:41) Al: Well, also, it’s interesting because like every time that someone like from a warmer (0:01:47) Al: place moves to the UK and then the experience, the UK summer, they’re like, oh, people weren’t (0:01:53) Al: just talking nonsense. It is, it’s different. And it’s hard to explain. I don’t know why, (0:01:59) Al: but it is just, it is, I don’t know. Like I don’t know, because I’ve never lived in (0:02:03) Kev: Wha- (0:02:04) Al: a hotter place. But all I will say is that lots of people who have lived in really hot (0:02:09) Al: places come to the UK (0:02:11) Al: and say that the heat is different. (0:02:13) Kev: Huh, I mmm. I don’t know I mean well (0:02:16) Kev: I will say this right like one thing you guys aren’t built for warmer temperatures generally speaking not like (0:02:23) Kev: Alright, so you know down here in the American South for instance, right? (0:02:27) Kev: We have air conditioning so you know you can go in a building and escape the heat (0:02:32) Kev: And that’s not always the case over there in there (0:02:33) Al: Yeah, my office is currently warmer than outside. So, but also I am ginger, so definitely not built (0:02:37) Kev: Yeah, there you go see so say yeah (0:02:43) Al: for heat. Yeah, yeah, I use factor 50 sun cream. All right. This episode we’re going to do, (0:02:44) Kev: Here’s biologically sensitive to pretty much everything (0:02:58) Al: uh, I think, I think Cody and Kevin insinuated that this episode would be the tales of the (0:03:03) Al: shower episode is not, that’s going to be in a couple of weeks, just because we’re having some (0:03:07) Al: scheduling things and, uh, you know, want to make sure we’ve, uh, the game has been played properly (0:03:13) Al: before it is covered. So that will be in a couple of weeks. Um, this week we’re going to talk about, (0:03:19) Al: we’re going to do a major check-in, see how we’re feeling about games for the year. Um, this is (0:03:24) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:03:24) Al: obviously not our game of the year episode that will be in five months, no, four months, four (0:03:30) Kev: Pudby (0:03:32) Al: More months! (0:03:33) Kev: That’s not I’m going to pretend you didn’t say that I’m going to pretend you didn’t say that (0:03:34) Al: That’s how time works, apparently. (0:03:41) Al: It’s halfway through August, and that means it’s four and a half months to the end of the year. (0:03:44) Kev: That’s not true (0:03:46) Al: It also means it’s nearly my birthday, but anyway. (0:03:50) Kev: Well, so get the two-third year check-in (0:03:54) Al: We are going to… We’re just calling… I said mid, not half. I said mid-years, (0:03:59) Al: Yeah, so we’re gonna talk about what we would talk about again. (0:04:04) Al: And what we think might be in the running for Game of the Year this year. (0:04:08) Al: We’ll see. I’ll be interested to see whether we’re right or not. (0:04:12) Kev: All right, I’m first question have I played enough games to come up with three? (0:04:18) Al: Ah, who cares? Before that, we’ve got a bunch of news. But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:04:26) Kev: Oh (0:04:27) Kev: Okay, so (0:04:30) Kev: Okay, where should I start? Okay, you know, I’ll start with this (0:04:32) Kev: Okay, the battle cats mobile game with the funny you are our art in the cats. They’re goofy looking (0:04:39) Kev: I’ve discussed it on the show before (0:04:42) Kev: So that’s a game I go on and off and generally something draws me back to it and (0:04:50) Kev: The what is the number one crossover to draw me to any game out (0:04:54) Al: Oh wow, oh goodness. Number one. We had this exact same conversation a month and a half ago, (0:04:58) Kev: Number one (0:05:04) Al: and I can’t remember what the answer was, and I feel like I overthought it, (0:05:04) Kev: Probably (0:05:07) Al: just like I’m overthinking it just now. (0:05:09) Kev: You are I don’t know what but (0:05:12) Kev: It was probably the same because it’s crosses over the law. There you go (0:05:13) Al: Probably. Sonic. Ah, yay, I got it right this time. (0:05:19) Kev: Sanic in in in in the battle cats (0:05:22) Al: Sonic’s in Battlecat! (0:05:24) Kev: Yeah, it’s actually I forgot to bring it up last week (0:05:26) Kev: It was - it started two weeks ago from recording and today I think is the last day. Sorry listeners too late for you (0:05:33) Kev: He’s not but neither is (0:05:37) Kev: Hatsune Miku or (0:05:39) Kev: Street fighter, but they’re in there (0:05:40) Al: I don’t know. If somebody told me that Hatsune Miku is a cat, I would believe it. (0:05:48) Kev: you know, um, you know what, that’s fair. That’s fair. Um, here, let me, uh, as, as we do, I’ll, yeah, I’ll do the, the slack thread. (0:05:57) Kev: Um, uh, let me, I’m going to show you the art, um, because, so how these crossovers and battle cats usually work is, uh, there’ll be a banner of four characters, um, from the actual property crossover, whatever. (0:06:12) Kev: Um, uh, and, and so, yeah, the four. (0:06:18) Kev: Characters, um, and they went with the, the obvious ones, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow, the Hedgehog, because of course the poster children. (0:06:27) Kev: Um, but what’s fun is, uh, they’ll also introduce a series of cats, uh, as in the battle cats TM, um, that look like, or cause play as the other characters. (0:06:40) Kev: Um, and they’re quite goofy looking. (0:06:42) Kev: Um, I don’t. (0:06:42) Al: Why is there such a height disparity there? (0:06:48) Kev: I don’t know. That’s a good question. I don’t, I, that particular image, oh no, that, that particular image, I think it’s just, uh, just the, the framing, like it’s front to back. (0:06:49) Al: Like, shadow is meant to be… (0:06:56) Al: Well, no, I think, sure, for the actual sonic and shadow on the right-hand side, (0:07:02) Al: but on the left-hand side, the sonic cat is clearly like three times the height of shadow cat. (0:07:04) Kev: okay yeah oh yeah yeah okay so there’s a sonic cat that looks like shadow like (0:07:12) Kev: the regular cat like shadow cat but then you can evolve him and he turns into (0:07:16) Kev: this taller cat I don’t know why because it’s the battle cats they love to do (0:07:18) Al: Oh. Oh, so you’ll be able to get both of them as as tall or (0:07:19) Kev: weird things that’s why that’s your answer it looks like a twinkie with a (0:07:23) Kev: sonic cat yeah I’ve only seen Sonic’s evolution so I don’t know if the other (0:07:31) Kev: cats can evolve in tall forms or (0:07:34) Kev: weird forms but Sonic Cat does get weird he turns tall like a Twinkie but (0:07:40) Kev: yeah so yeah it’s I will say Battle Cats is pretty good with their collabs (0:07:46) Kev: because of course you get the characters but you also get stages which come with (0:07:52) Kev: full Sonic soundtracks there’s like four special stages that you can do on a (0:07:56) Kev: repeat in different missions and so it’s been a lot of fun the Sonic cast are (0:08:02) Kev: Actually quite quite good (0:08:04) Kev: The actual characters I pulled I got Sonic (0:08:08) Kev: So I’m happy. I got one at least (0:08:11) Kev: Calvin pulled tails, I believe but sadly we didn’t get the others (0:08:17) Kev: But what is nice these collabs will frequently come back (0:08:21) Kev: Well, maybe not frequently, but but they come back on some regularity. It is to be expected (0:08:26) Kev: So I’ll be saving up for the next time Sonic swings around but it’s it’s been good fun (0:08:32) Kev: I’m getting better and I do (0:08:34) Kev: Enjoy the game battle cats not just the the polls really got your whatever so it’s been nice to get back into the end (0:08:40) Kev: So yeah Sonic and the battle cats. It’s been a lot of fun. Oh, you know what there was an intro video (0:08:44) Kev: Let me find the intro video. Hold on. I’ll put it in you can watch it later (0:08:48) Kev: But but they did a little animation. It was good (0:08:52) Kev: So yeah aside from that, um, oh, you know what I finished monk the the detective show monk (0:09:01) Kev: It’s it’s good. I (0:09:04) Kev: Yeah, eight seasons so I kind of crushed it cuz I don’t know I’ve been binge watching but it’s like the regular show (0:09:10) Kev: I’ll watch when I get home or whatever (0:09:13) Al: Oh, it’s it’s old. I mean, I said it’s old. I mean, not super old, but like 20 years old. (0:09:16) Kev: Sorry, what was that? Oh (0:09:19) Kev: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s a thing they actually did I after I finish I have to watch (0:09:26) Kev: the (0:09:27) Kev: Sorry, I have to see (0:09:29) Kev: There’s a movie they’d made a movie in 2023 50 (0:09:34) Kev: years or so after the end (0:09:36) Kev: and I can’t wait to check that out (0:09:40) Kev: they have all the original actors they (0:09:43) Kev: look quite old but it’s still enjoyable (0:09:45) Kev: but yeah anyways my great series the (0:09:49) Kev: main actor Tony Shalab he’s he is such a (0:09:53) Kev: good actor like his performances are (0:09:55) Kev: just incredible easy recommend for (0:09:58) Kev: anyone but yeah the later seasons were (0:10:01) Kev: really good season sevens really good (0:10:04) Kev: it feels like they knew the end was (0:10:07) Kev: coming so they did a lot of stuff to (0:10:10) Kev: celebrate the series if you will so yeah (0:10:13) Kev: good good stuff was good (0:10:15) Kev: um let’s see other than that nothing (0:10:20) Kev: honestly not that much it’s been crazy (0:10:23) Kev: at work but thankfully I finally finished (0:10:24) Kev: this huge project and so I’ll finally be (0:10:26) Kev: able to partake in other things again (0:10:28) Kev: these upcoming oh wait wait one more (0:10:31) Kev: thing how could I tear a nail after my (0:10:34) Kev: last week I played the update their nail (0:10:36) Al: Oh yes. Nice. It’s just more of the same. (0:10:37) Kev: um it’s yeah turn out a good game still (0:10:40) Kev: good game the core still the same the (0:10:43) Kev: new levels the new line yes and no like (0:10:47) Kev: the center of the general purpose but (0:10:49) Kev: they introduce a lot of new mechanics (0:10:50) Kev: and and different kind of ways to solve (0:10:54) Kev: the puzzle I’ve been enjoying it of (0:10:56) Kev: course but let them fun thing they did (0:10:58) Kev: they’ll add new objectives even to the (0:11:00) Kev: old stages so let’s say I had a hundred (0:11:04) Kev: four all those areas I had a hundred (0:11:05) Kev: percent are not only like seventy five (0:11:08) Kev: percent because they had a new objective (0:11:10) Kev: so gives you a good reason to go back (0:11:12) Kev: and then try the old levels and have fun (0:11:13) Kev: with them again since it’s like a (0:11:16) Kev: procedurally generated level it’s you (0:11:18) Kev: know it’s fun every time so yeah a (0:11:20) Kev: tear in L it’s good all right out what (0:11:24) Al: Hmm. Not a huge amount because I’ve been on holiday and going on holiday with kids means (0:11:33) Al: not having a holiday. So I’ve not had a huge amount of time to do much, but I have started (0:11:36) Kev: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. (0:11:42) Al: playing Donkey Kong, Bonanza. I’m only like an hour or so in. I mean, I’ve got a good (0:11:47) Kev: okay (0:11:48) Al: idea of how the game plays, but I’m not like super. (0:11:50) Kev: yeah (0:11:54) Al: Super far through it. I got through the tutorial level and I’m kind of like half the way through (0:11:55) Kev: why (0:11:58) Al: the next set of levels. Yeah, mostly, mostly. I am very frustrated with the camera. It is (0:11:59) Kev: okay I’ve heard that game is good like really really good (0:12:05) Kev: mostly (0:12:13) Al: fine when you’re out in the open, but as soon as you get into any like tunnel or like go (0:12:20) Al: underground. It’s super not fun. (0:12:24) Al: a great camera for that. And I think the most frustrating thing is there was a section (0:12:28) Al: in the tutorial where the camera worked really well for underground. It like kind of zoomed (0:12:33) Al: out and you could see through the ground and it was like a really nice way. But it’s I’ve (0:12:37) Al: not seen it again do that since then. And I don’t know why they don’t use that camera (0:12:41) Al: when you’re underground because like you just end up like going up against the wall and (0:12:43) Kev: Hm. (0:12:47) Al: it gets really confused. And it’s really hard to see anything. And considering it’s a game (0:12:54) Al: where you’re like smashing everything up and you’re encouraged to make tunnels through (0:12:57) Al: the ground. I don’t know why they didn’t put more effort into that camera. Not that I can (0:13:00) Kev: is there an option for that i’m gonna guess no because it’s a nintendo game (0:13:04) Al: see. Yeah, not that I can see. There’s a decent amount of controller options, but nothing (0:13:07) Kev: nintendo doesn’t believe in options heck sometimes (0:13:15) Al: for changing how the camera works other than inverted camera. (0:13:19) Kev: do you remember in was it no sword and shield they hid the audio options on an item (0:13:27) Kev: you had to talk to an NPC to get it (0:13:28) Al: Oh yeah, that was a certain field. That was bizarre. And it wasn’t even the first area. (0:13:30) Kev: no it was like motor stoke yeah I’m (0:13:35) Al: You had to get up to Motorstoke, I think. Which is like a third of the way through the game. (0:13:40) Kev: pretty sure so that was there’s a couple (0:13:42) Kev: yeah you had to pass the wilder that’s (0:13:45) Al: You couldn’t change the volume settings until you were a third. It’s just bizarre. (0:13:48) Kev: crazy yeah yeah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (0:13:50) Al: And then you have to buy it. Yeah, that was a stupid decision. (0:13:56) Al: Like a lot of times with games, I’m like, OK. (0:13:58) Al: Sure, I don’t like that, but maybe that’s stupid, right? (0:14:02) Kev: Oh my gosh, yes, oh. (0:14:02) Al: That’s just that is literally an accessibility option, right? (0:14:05) Al: Like, come on. (0:14:06) Kev: Yep. (0:14:07) Kev: Oh my gosh, you know, I hate them, but I also love, because I just love trash fires. (0:14:16) Kev: I love bad stupid decisions like that. (0:14:19) Kev: Battle Cats actually has one. It’s like the single flaw in the entire game, because the game is very well made in my opinion. (0:14:25) Kev: And it’s a very minor, like very niche thing, but there’s, as you can imagine, (0:14:32) Kev: They have like a gallery or whatever, right? Go through the menu and, you know, go through the characters, see their stats, yada, yada. (0:14:39) Kev: Well, they have an enemy guide too, same thing, but the enemy guide is just a straight horizontal list. (0:14:48) Kev: There’s no pages, you can’t filter, you can’t search, you just have to go left to right through an entire (0:14:55) Kev: huge roster of enemies. It’s almost the worst. (0:15:00) Kev: Anyways options are good (0:15:02) Kev: Forgive people options people (0:15:04) Kev: Do good things (0:15:05) Al: So yeah, I think that’s, that’s about it. I mean, I’ve been watching through the Sandman (0:15:11) Al: show, but I’m not really talking about that because, you know, Neil Gaiman, awkward. So (0:15:15) Kev: Sand man, I wait. What is that? I don’t know what that is (0:15:18) Al: Sandman who’s a DC character at TCC, that one, but it’s the Netflix adapted it into (0:15:21) Kev: Oh, it is that one okay, okay (0:15:26) Al: a show. And they did the first season a couple of years ago, and then the whole Neil Gaiman (0:15:32) Al: and stuff, you know, because he was the one that wrote down, man. (0:15:34) Kev: Uh, yeah. (0:15:35) Al: And they were like, oh, oh, but they did manage to get the second season done without him. (0:15:44) Kev: Well, guess what, anything you do probably gives someone awful money. (0:15:44) Al: He’s almost certainly getting money for it, but whatever. (0:15:53) Al: Yes, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. It doesn’t make me feel better. (0:15:58) Al: Yeah, so I have been watching that and I’ve mostly been managing to ignore him. (0:16:06) Al: And focus on the show and it’s good. I like it. I enjoy the show. (0:16:08) Kev: sure sure that’s cool yeah it’s wild to me the the the you know years between seasons structure (0:16:18) Kev: that netflix does um I don’t know I just I find it crazy like I was at wednesday the wednesday show (0:16:25) Kev: that was a three-year gap and it was only eight episodes I think the new season that’s insane to (0:16:26) Al: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. (0:16:33) Kev: me you remember when shows I say this someone watching monk you’d get like (0:16:38) Kev: ish episodes of season every year isn’t that great 20 to 26 (0:16:42) Al: Well, you want to have a conversation? No, I don’t like that. (0:16:48) Kev: what what (0:16:48) Al: So, right, OK, so there’s two parts to this. One, do I wish the shows that I like released (0:16:52) Kev: okay (0:16:55) Al: yearly? Probably, if they could keep the quality up, yes. But do I wish that all series were (0:16:58) Kev: yeah okay (0:17:02) Al: still 20 episodes? Absolutely not. Why would I want 20 episodes when half of them are boring? (0:17:09) Al: right, give me the eight episodes that are good, don’t give me the more that (0:17:12) Al: you don’t care about, give me what you think you want, not something that is enforced by (0:17:17) Al: studios because they need year-round episodes, like we don’t need to do that anymore and I don’t (0:17:23) Kev: Mmm, I mean (0:17:23) Al: care for it. It’s like how it’s like, oh you know, like do you complain about the fact that episodes (0:17:32) Al: aren’t always, you know, was it 48 minutes long anymore because they don’t all have to fit into (0:17:36) Al: the exact same advert blocks. Now, (0:17:39) Kev: Mm-hmm. I (0:17:42) Kev: May kind of do (0:17:42) Al: you can take that too far, Netflix with your two and a half hour season finale of Stranger Things (0:17:48) Al: season four last time. That was too far, but other than that, I mean that doesn’t, you can have (0:17:48) Kev: Yes, yes (0:17:53) Kev: Exactly (0:17:58) Al: a middle thing which is not in the extremes there. I like when episodes aren’t like necessarily (0:18:02) Al: consistent because they want to fit in what they want to fit in, that they feel fits their artistic (0:18:07) Al: expression. I like that. (0:18:08) Kev: yeah okay sure I guess okay you know here’s the call here’s the here’s the qualifier right (0:18:13) Al: Do you really miss clip episodes? (0:18:18) Kev: is it good right which is a dumb thing because that’s the question right because let’s all right (0:18:19) Al: Yes, of course. (0:18:23) Kev: let’s yeah you can look at examples on both ends of the spectrum right um look at uh look at cora (0:18:30) Kev: right that that show could have used some more episodes for sure um that that first season needed (0:18:33) Al: possibly. I mean maybe they didn’t have anything else they wanted to put in it, right? Like… (0:18:38) Kev: at least a couple more episodes at first (0:18:41) Al: Yeah, I guess my point is not like, oh, I wish we didn’t have more episodes, right? I’m not saying (0:18:48) Al: that. Like, if there’s good stuff, I want to see it. But I don’t agree with the, oh, wasn’t it (0:18:53) Al: great when every show had 20 to 22 episodes and they were all the exact same length and they (0:18:59) Al: happened. No, I don’t. I don’t long for those days. I don’t. (0:19:02) Kev: Don’t know I got a monk. It’s been pretty good the whole time. I guess it did depends (0:19:04) Al: But I just, it’s just when you, when you got the like episode, that was the clip episode, (0:19:11) Al: because they had to put out an episode and they didn’t care. They didn’t want anything. (0:19:13) Kev: Monk did not do that actually crazy, but you sure yeah, yeah, but but okay. Yes, that’s just (0:19:16) Al: Sure. But most shows did almost every show did. And some of them did it better than others, (0:19:21) Kev: Yes, yes (0:19:22) Al: but you always, every time it happened, you rolled your eyes and went, Oh, here we go. (0:19:24) Kev: Yeah, okay, you know what you’re right (0:19:26) Al: And you watched it anyway, because maybe there was something that was actually going to progress the (0:19:29) Al: story. You don’t know. It might be fully clips or it might actually do something. (0:19:31) Kev: Sure (0:19:33) Kev: Eh, I guess (0:19:34) Al: But I mean, I think the, I think the, as you say, the complication is it depends on the show. (0:19:42) Al: It depends on what they’re doing. And I don’t think it’s, it’s obviously not the case that (0:19:47) Al: creators get to do what they want all the time. Obviously I’m not, I’m not suggesting that is, (0:19:48) Kev: Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, that’s (0:19:53) Al: but I think having more freedom for that, I think is a good thing in general. And. (0:19:59) Kev: Sure, you know, okay fine. I don’t need every show to (0:20:03) Kev: How should I put this? Okay? I don’t it’s not that I want every show to be 26 episodes every year or whatever (0:20:10) Kev: but when I look at (0:20:11) Al: The numbers just getting higher and higher (0:20:13) Kev: when I look at (0:20:16) Kev: Though the Wednesday series (0:20:18) Kev: Right episodes in three years that that seems like you know that it seems cheap for lack of a better word, right? (0:20:20) Al: So, I think, well, I mean, you say that cheap, like you pay for the subscription for Netflix (0:20:32) Al: when you want to get the stuff and you watch it and then you stop subscribing, right? I (0:20:34) Kev: Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah (0:20:36) Al: think of those sorts of shows as in the same way that people complain about them because (0:20:41) Al: they’re structured like films, I think of them in that sort of way as well, right? Three (0:20:46) Kev: That that is true (0:20:47) Al: years, three years between a film and its sequels. (0:20:50) Al: Not an unusual amount of time, and eight episodes is longer than a film would be. (0:20:51) Kev: That is very true that that’s what that’s what I’m (0:20:56) Kev: You’re right, that’s that’s what I’m not thinking here because that that is more common nowadays (0:21:00) Kev: Isn’t it where a season of a show is really just an extra-long movie like the Marvel Studios shows? (0:21:06) Kev: You’re you’re right about that (0:21:10) Kev: Yeah, that’s a good point touche (0:21:12) Al: I mean Marvel have a problem with sequels in general just now, right? Like when was the last, (0:21:16) Kev: Ah (0:21:18) Al: you know, in we got three Iron Mans and I think it was eight years or something like that and (0:21:26) Kev: Yeah (0:21:26) Al: it’s now been what four years since Shang-Chi and we haven’t even got a second yet. (0:21:30) Kev: Yeah (0:21:31) Al: Like there is a real problem they have with sequels just in general which is a whole other (0:21:34) Al: conversation and is probably part of the reason that they’re not getting big box office numbers (0:21:35) Kev: Yeah (0:21:41) Al: because most. (0:21:42) Al: There are big numbers. (0:21:43) Al: We’re always the third in a series, you know, Iron Man one didn’t make a billion. (0:21:46) Kev: Mmm, that’s a good point. (0:21:48) Al: Iron Man three did make a billion. (0:21:52) Al: Just saying also, you know, it’s things like, you know, the Marvels being called the Marvels (0:21:52) Kev: Uh, yeah. (0:21:57) Al: rather than Captain Marvel two probably would have made more money if it had done that. (0:21:58) Kev: Yeah… (0:22:01) Al: Now, there are obviously other issues with that in terms of misogyny, but that was still (0:22:04) Al: there when the first film came out and it made a billion. (0:22:05) Kev: Yeah… (0:22:06) Kev: Yeah, exactly! (0:22:07) Kev: Right, right? (0:22:07) Al: Why did the mark? (0:22:08) Al: Why did Captain Marvel make a billion and the Marvels didn’t? (0:22:11) Al: And then there’s all this other complications. (0:22:12) Al: Well, nobody has any money anymore and COVID killed everything until blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (0:22:17) Al: But Deadpool and Wolverine made a billion. (0:22:19) Al: That was the third in the series as well, right? (0:22:22) Al: Like they clearly can make lots of money. (0:22:24) Al: They’re just not doing what they used to do, which made them lots of money. (0:22:28) Al: They make a film and it doesn’t make a lot of money. (0:22:30) Al: And they go, Oh, well, well, let’s not make a second. (0:22:31) Al: But the whole point was your first ones never make a lot of money. (0:22:34) Al: It’s the second and third that make the money. (0:22:36) Al: And also which third film in the MCU made the least money, Thor. (0:22:42) Al: Or three. Why was that? (0:22:43) Al: Cos Thor 2 was bad. (0:22:44) Kev: It was really bad is it is it hmm (0:22:47) Al: Coincidence? (0:22:49) Kev: Have we are I’m thinking got you know on our discords and slacks have we argued which of the worst Marvel films (0:22:55) Kev: I feel like that that needs to happen. Oh (0:22:56) Al: I mean, it’s I mean, it’s Star of the Dark World, right? (0:22:59) Kev: I mean I (0:23:02) Kev: Okay, I don’t want to turn but it’s probably a rise probably dark world. Yeah, I’m struggling to think (0:23:06) Al: Eternals, I’m not trying, I’m not trying to say Eternals was one of the best, but it’s not the worst, not at all. (0:23:10) Kev: It’s not as bad as dark world. Yeah, I believe a dark world (0:23:12) Al: Absolutely not. There is, I don’t think there is an MCU film that is as bad as those. (0:23:18) Kev: Yeah, that was rough. Oh I miss (0:23:22) Al: Like, I mean, try and explain this plot of that film. (0:23:29) Kev: Yeah, yeah, no there’s (0:23:30) Al: Thor’s girlfriend gets injected with something, and he has to get it out of her, (0:23:32) Kev: And they and he used to fight dark elves (0:23:34) Al: and also his mum dies, maybe, I think. (0:23:38) Kev: Did she did I don’t know why but oh god (0:23:41) Al: You can know everything about that film, just from the bit where they go back in time (0:23:46) Al: and endgame to it. That is the only bit about that film that matters. (0:23:47) Kev: They were yeah, yeah, they really didn’t see good. Oh, yeah (0:23:50) Al: It tells you everything. (0:23:53) Al: In fact, there’s more, there’s more character progression and more heart in that scene when (0:23:58) Al: he goes back than there is in the entire film. You know, when he meets his mom and he’s sad (0:24:02) Kev: There is (0:24:03) Al: because he knows she’s about to die, you know, that is more than the entire film has. (0:24:05) Kev: Yeah, you’re you’re right I did enjoy that what 15 minute bit (0:24:10) Al: And then, and then he calls for his, then he calls from y’all near and it comes for him and he’s (0:24:14) Al: so happy. He says, I’m still worthy. (0:24:18) Kev: You’re right, that was better than the entire movie. You’re right. I (0:24:23) Al: I mean, I don’t know how they, how did they make that film so long when there’s so little that happens? (0:24:29) Kev: Don’t I don’t know. I just whatever well, I will say this Kat Dennings (0:24:31) Al: Anyway, you would, you would, you would have to have a, you’d have to have a, well, yeah, (0:24:36) Al: okay, true. I mean, that’s fair. She does improve any film. But you’d have to have a really good (0:24:38) Kev: Yeah, yeah, that’s correct (0:24:44) Al: argument to convince me that that’s not the worst film. I don’t think anything even comes close. (0:24:47) Kev: Yeah, okay, you know what fair fair. I’m gonna yeah fair. I haven’t seen fantastic for (0:24:53) Al: Anyway, what was my point? Yeah. Yeah. I was watching The Sandman and then I’m probably (0:24:58) Kev: Sandman (0:25:00) Al: going to watch Weddings day after that. Cause that’s, I need to, I need to watch that next (0:25:02) Kev: Cool I like the Adams family (0:25:03) Al: season. And then where else have we got Strange, Strange New Worlds, Star Trek. That’s coming out (0:25:09) Al: just now. Need to watch that as well. Name a Star Trek that doesn’t fit that description. (0:25:10) Kev: Oh (0:25:12) Kev: Is that the one with the hot guy I don’t remember (0:25:18) Kev: Oh (0:25:21) Kev: That’s a good point, but that’s a good point (0:25:22) Al: Anyway, that’s what we’ve been up to. Maybe I’ll have more to talk about Bonanza when (0:25:32) Kev: No, we did it (0:25:34) Al: next time we’ll see. All right. We’re going to talk about some, (0:25:36) Kev: Get to the end (0:25:38) Kev: I’m saying get to the end. There’s there’s good things in that game. Mm-hmm (0:25:40) Al: I don’t think I’ll do that in a week. I have heard that the story is good, but I’ve not got (0:25:47) Al: to any point that actually matters with the story yet. Yeah. Let’s talk about some. (0:25:52) Al: Game news. First up, Moonlight in Garland, which Kevin’s probably going, Oh, I can’t remember what (0:25:59) Al: that game is. I don’t recognize that name. Well, it’s coming out of early access on the 27th of (0:26:00) Kev: CORRECT! (0:26:06) Al: August. I mean, it’s pretty much it’s. (0:26:12) Kev: Ha ha ha use the mad libs the cottagecore game mad laser you just yeah (0:26:19) Kev: There I’m looking (0:26:22) Al: Seems like it’s less farming, more community building, and it’s like a kind of town slash (0:26:29) Kev: Yeah (0:26:32) Kev: Yeah, this has a very specific (0:26:32) Al: city rather than village. (0:26:38) Kev: Aesthetic to like mid-2000s. I don’t know a (0:26:42) Al: Yeah, I was thinking Polly Pocket, but like the characters from Polly Pocket rather than the (0:26:45) Kev: Pocket Polly like it’s weird. Um (0:26:50) Kev: Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly the characters right that’s exactly I’m talking (0:26:51) Al: action. Yeah, it’s funny that we both had the same thought that that shows you where it’s at. (0:26:57) Kev: Yeah, that’s so (0:26:59) Kev: Wait, is this the one where you can do crime? No, that might be a different one. We live in the city (0:27:02) Al: No, that’s not this one. That’s not this one. No crime in this one. (0:27:08) Kev: Gosh good old cottagecore. We’re in too deep. Oh, we’re in too deep (0:27:15) Kev: All right (0:27:17) Kev: Wait, so what was the actual news here? Are we at one point a release? Okay, August 27th (0:27:22) Al: Yes, 27th of August. Next, “Above Snakes have announced their console releases coming on the 4th of September.” So that is Switch, Xbox. (0:27:30) Kev: I’m kind of surprised they’re doing console’s release was that do we cover again I I don’t (0:27:35) Al: That was a Kickstarter stretch thing. (0:27:37) Kev: even remember did we come (0:27:39) Al: I don’t know if we did a proper one on it. We had our episode where we talked about the cultural… (0:27:46) Kev: Yeah, yeah, Nami on that, yeah, yeah, I remember that. (0:27:48) Al: I don’t want to say appropriation, the cultural questions around it. (0:27:52) Al: Shall we see? (0:27:52) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I do remember that. (0:27:54) Al: I don’t know if we actually covered that. (0:27:55) Kev: But, well, you know what? (0:27:58) Kev: Hats off to them if that was a goal (0:28:01) Kev: and they’re actually doing it, right? (0:28:02) Kev: Because even games that do release from Kickstarter (0:28:05) Kev: don’t always get to the console port when they promise it. (0:28:08) Al: Absolutely. Yeah, I should probably play at some point. I do have it. I own it on Steam (0:28:19) Al: because I backed it because it came out on that period of time where I was backing basically (0:28:24) Kev: everything before you (0:28:25) Al: every vaguely cottage core Kickstarter. I’m better now. I have not backed a farming game (0:28:33) Al: on Kickstarter since Autonomica. (0:28:38) Al: I went back in April. Yeah. I have backed two Kickstarters back then, but since then, (0:28:39) Kev: So your time on rehab was successful. (0:28:41) Kev: Good, good for you. (0:28:47) Al: but neither of them have been farming. (0:28:49) Kev: Nah, look at you, progress. (0:28:53) Kev: Well, hey, that’s September 4th. (0:28:56) Kev: Oh, I don’t like how close that is. (0:28:58) Kev: How’s it going so fast now? (0:29:00) Al: I don’t know. Time. (0:29:04) Kev: Time. (0:29:07) Al: Next we have Out and About. They managed to release this time successfully. This was the (0:29:10) Kev: Your comment. (0:29:15) Kev: This time. (0:29:19) Al: one where last week they tried to release, but they accidentally, or they realized they (0:29:23) Al: hadn’t clicked the access button, which put it into review, and then it took several days (0:29:24) Kev: They deleted the button. (0:29:30) Al: so now they have actually released their early access. Congratulations to Out and About. (0:29:34) Kev: good for them they did it I don’t know the game looks fine I guess it’s walking (0:29:45) Kev: through a forest looking (0:29:48) Al: Yeah, it’s doing something different. It’s not just like, it’s not farming, it’s foraging, (0:29:52) Al: and the idea is you’re exploring, and it’s another picture-taking one as well, but (0:29:58) Al: you’re foraging for things. It’s cute. (0:30:00) Kev: Yeah, it is. It’s, uh, it’s like, uh, what is it? Uh, the, the, the, the, the hike game. Um, I forget, it kind of reminds me of that, but a little more involved. (0:30:10) Al: Oh, a short hike. Yeah. It’s much more, you know, it’s 3D, third person view. No. Yeah. (0:30:12) Kev: Yeah. It’s the one. Yeah. But you know, you’re actually foraging. (0:30:16) Kev: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an extension of that. Not necessarily better extension, but just, you know, kind of in that vein of ideas of just going through the woods and looking at stuff. (0:30:28) Al: I’m also comparing it to Alba in my head because it was kind of similar where you’re (0:30:35) Kev: Yeah, yeah that too yeah, um yeah, okay. Well hey good good for them. They found the button finally (0:30:44) Al: Congratulations. Next we have Coral Island have announced that their 1.2 update is out. (0:30:51) Kev: Okay, why why is there someone in a dinosaur suit? (0:30:56) Al: Why not? What a silly question! I’m guessing that’s one of the spooky costumes, cause. (0:30:58) Kev: How good (0:31:00) Kev: You know, that’s a good counterpoint, okay (0:31:06) Al: So the things that are coming in this update, multiplayer, they’ve revamped their romance (0:31:11) Al: progression, adding more hearts. You can get up to a heart event, sorry, you can get up (0:31:15) Al: to 15 hearts now with heart events. So 11 to 15 are after marriage, like the stargy (0:31:22) Al: ones added in like 1.4 or something, I forget. (0:31:27) Al: But they’ve also added spooky costumes, okay? (0:31:35) Al: Like, this is one of those ones that feels weird that this feels like (0:31:40) Al: something they wanted to do for 1.0 and just didn’t, but. (0:31:43) Kev: yeah that’s it that is very much what it feels like Mitch drew I guess good for (0:31:49) Kev: them that a gate got here like yeah I am NOT gonna fault them for that because (0:31:54) Kev: it’s a game dev is hard I don’t know if you know that out oh oh I like you I’m (0:32:00) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s fair. (0:32:02) Kev: looking I’m sorry I’m looking for the video some of the costumes the the NPC’s (0:32:06) Kev: rather pretty good there’s like a tinker the good chicken a Tinkerbell costume I (0:32:09) Kev: like that that’s good (0:32:11) Al: Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of care taken on these costumes. They’re not, they’re not just like generic things. Each person has like a unique costume and they’re all very interesting. The twins have almost the same costume, which is fun, but they’re not quite. They’re slightly different, which is based on, you know, their personality. (0:32:32) Kev: That’s fun to, yeah, that’s, yeah, I like that, that’s, that’s good, yeah, um, dressing (0:32:37) Kev: up your NPCs. (0:32:38) Kev: You know what, I take it that the dinosaur costume is a good idea. (0:32:41) Al: I’m trying to find them. So I’ve asked you motivates us that I found their spooky festival section of the video. I’m guessing that’s where you saw it. Well, I see someone as a panda. (0:32:48) Kev: Yeah, there’s near the start (0:32:51) Kev: All the twins. Oh (0:32:51) Al: I was near the start of the video. (0:32:54) Kev: Yeah, it’s near the start all that. I’m looking at the twin costumes. Those are good. Actually (0:32:59) Kev: They might be the best costumes (0:33:01) Kev: It’s a I don’t know. There’s like little blueberry monsters. I don’t know how to describe it better (0:33:09) Kev: That’s cool. What is that guy there? (0:33:10) Al: It’s definitely you have to see. (0:33:12) Kev: Yeah, there’s a guy in a black turtle. What is that is that supposed to be a costume that doesn’t look that’s just a (0:33:18) Kev: Guy in a sweatshirt and jeans. I don’t get that (0:33:22) Al: And yeah, OK, I don’t know what his I don’t know what Pablo’s costume is he trying to be Steve Jobs or something? (0:33:30) Kev: I guess with Shane. I don’t know. I don’t know (0:33:33) Al: I don’t know. (0:33:37) Al: Where’s this dinosaur costume you’re talking about? (0:33:38) Kev: Yo (0:33:40) Kev: Okay, okay, let me let me find it it’s in the video it was near the very start (0:33:45) Al: Oh, I’ve got it, I’ve got it, I’ve got it. Yeah, that’s, that’ll be a spooky costume, (0:33:47) Kev: You found it great (0:33:49) Kev: Yeah, it probably is I like it. It’s dumb. I like it what? (0:33:49) Al: because it’s pumpkins and lights around them. (0:33:55) Al: There are some silly costumes you can use as your player as well in the game that I’ve (0:33:59) Al: put on before. I can’t remember what I was dressed up as, but they, it’s not just like, (0:34:05) Al: they have a decent amount of player customization already. (0:34:08) Kev: Yeah, yeah. There’s also a collab with Fungi Swarm. (0:34:09) Al: Uh, yeah, that’s their game. (0:34:15) Al: Our other game, isn’t it? Um, uh, what, there’s, uh, redeemable items. Okay. (0:34:17) Kev: Yeah, it is. Which, yeah, but I think… (0:34:24) Kev: There’s a antler dog guy. I don’t know what that is, but, uh… (0:34:27) Al: Uh, a mythical pet outfit. (0:34:31) Kev: I don’t know what… I don’t… Okay, I don’t know what this creature is. (0:34:34) Al: “Razzi” or “Razzdi” (0:34:37) Kev: whereas the it’s an off. (0:34:41) Kev: It’s a blue reindeer dog. (0:34:42) Kev: I don’t know what else to describe it. (0:34:44) Al: Well, speaking of dogs, (0:34:45) Kev: Uhhh… (0:34:47) Kev: You! Ooh, good transition, tell me. (0:34:48) Al: for some reason we’re talking about Sugadoo Island again, (0:34:51) Kev: W-w-why?! (0:34:51) Al: this game. (0:34:53) Al: ‘Cause, dog, they’ve released a code (0:34:57) Al: that you can redeem in the game and it gives you dog. (0:35:01) Kev: But okay spotted dog, that’s (0:35:04) Al: If it’s anything like everything else in this game, (0:35:07) Al: you won’t be able to name it. (0:35:08) Al: It won’t do anything other than just follow you around (0:35:11) Al: like a blind rat, I don’t know. (0:35:14) Kev: I’m not sure how well blind rec could follow you but they do that is true you’ll fly like (0:35:15) Al: It’s not really turned on for metaphors just now. (0:35:22) Al: They have a good sense of smell. (0:35:28) Kev: a dog I have a dog they do follow you yeah that is true its name is spotted dog that’s (0:35:32) Al: Yeah, but with personality, I doubt this one a lot. (0:35:41) Kev: That’s it. (0:35:41) Al: That would, I mean I’d be surprised if it wasn’t just dog. (0:35:44) Kev: Yeah. (0:35:48) Al: Next we have Aether Wizard Life have released a what they’re calling their first announcement (0:35:56) Al: trailer but I’m confused because this game was announced multiple years ago so I don’t (0:35:57) Kev: Okay (0:36:00) Al: know how this is an announcement trailer. (0:36:01) Kev: And (0:36:02) Kev: It’s only for backers, which I don’t know you probably want to make that available. Oh, there is. Oh, okay. Let me see. Oh (0:36:06) Al: There’s a link to the actual video as well. (0:36:11) Kev: Yeah, there is. Okay. Yeah, that’s all right. I was like at the Kickstarter page (0:36:15) Kev: First of all, I don’t like this name at all. I don’t know if we covered this game, but I don’t like that at all (0:36:18) Al: No. (0:36:23) Al: This is, I don’t know if we’ve seen gameplay before. (0:36:26) Al: This is the first time seeing some of this stuff. (0:36:29) Al: The building of your house is basically (0:36:32) Al: exactly the same as the Spiritfarer building, (0:36:36) Kev: Yup! (0:36:37) Al: which I’m not complaining about because that is good. (0:36:39) Al: I like that. (0:36:40) Al: More of that, please. (0:36:40) Kev: Yeah, that modularity, it’s good. Build your castle. (0:36:44) Al: There are some, shall we say, thirsty characters (0:36:48) Kev: Oh, geez. Good. That guy, I mean, that one guy alone, he’s the worst offender. It’s the first one they show you, too. (0:36:59) Al: There’s yep, it’s uh, you’re gonna this is this is a weed game apparently (0:37:00) Kev: Good heavens. (0:37:06) Kev: Oh my gosh, that… Oh, shit. You know what? Fine. Lean into it. Just full thirst into it and just do it. (0:37:16) Kev: If you’re going to do it, go all in. (0:37:16) Al: Every game has to have a hook, I just don’t think that that is a unique hook. (0:37:22) Kev: True? That’s true. It probably worked for some people, not me, but… (0:37:27) Al: You’re definitely not you. Not you. Have you got to the other characters yet? (0:37:32) Kev: Yeah, I see the other characters like they’re (0:37:36) Kev: Is it this is hmm, this is a problem when everyone does it like everyone loses their (0:37:42) Kev: You know, it’s it’s it’s tough to stick out in the crowd, right? Like these just look generic (0:37:46) Kev: I don’t know the guy who looks like he’s dressing up like an elf (0:37:50) Kev: I don’t know and then why are there two in silhouettes? Why do you have to silhouette those characters? I feel like you shouldn’t (0:37:56) Al: for our secret. We’re going to tell you later. I don’t just like the character designs. The (0:37:58) Kev: Okay (0:38:01) Kev: There’s a girl with the ponytail of the sword (0:38:03) Al: character design’s okay. What I do find a bit weird is not the character designs and not your (0:38:11) Al: playable character design. They’re both fine. What’s weird is them both together in the same (0:38:17) Al: game. They look like very different designs. They look like they’re from different games. (0:38:20) Kev: They do (0:38:22) Kev: Right because yeah, cuz we’re looking at the (0:38:27) Kev: The oh (0:38:29) Kev: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Absolutely cuz these NPCs, you know very (0:38:34) Kev: Detailed sort of designs and and whatnot and you’re a little in the generic side (0:38:35) Al: much more detailed. (0:38:38) Al: I don’t dislike the playable characters design, it just feels, I think it looks bad purely (0:38:40) Kev: You’re right, I agree with it (0:38:44) Kev: Yeah (0:38:48) Al: because of how the other one. (0:38:52) Kev: you’re right it doesn’t you know what the problem is I as far as i’ve seen there’s no like (0:38:57) Kev: portrait art for your character right because yeah yeah yeah because it’s it’s a very different (0:38:59) Al: That’s what it is, it’s the portrait art of course I’m just yeah I’m looking at a bit of one of them in game and yeah they look, they look much more similar to your characters but the portrait art is so much more detail. (0:39:11) Kev: art style as as portrait arts are so frequently done but there’s not one for your your character (0:39:18) Kev: And so I don’t know it’s just I see I get what you’re saying. Absolutely (0:39:22) Kev: Um (0:39:24) Kev: But I mean even in the in-game art style like it’s there’s still a little more detail than your character (0:39:31) Kev: Because like your characters is (0:39:32) Al: It’s the face, there’s no nose. (0:39:33) Kev: Yeah, ooh, that’s a good point, right? There’s no facial features. It’s just like the eyes and the smile (0:39:39) Kev: That’s it on your the player character. You’re right. You’re super right (0:39:42) Al: Anyway, the interesting thing about this, I guess, is the magic stuff, and it does look quite detailed. (0:39:48) Al: So maybe that could be interesting. (0:39:50) Al: And then there’s some combat. (0:39:52) Kev: yeah there’s a lot of stuff going on here there’s an owl with the flower on its head and (0:39:58) Kev: I don’t even know what’s going on with these like skill trees or I don’t know there’s a lot going on here (0:40:03) Al: I think, I think they’re for like making new spells, possibly. (0:40:07) Kev: yeah honestly (0:40:08) Al: Look, I’m gonna, I’m gonna probably play it because I did back on Kickstarter, (0:40:12) Al: like the idiot that I was, but. (0:40:14) Kev: the the magic stuff I think is the bigger draw here that looks pretty interesting slash well done (0:40:19) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. (0:40:21) Kev: There’s combat (0:40:22) Kev: Magical creatures that looks fun (0:40:26) Kev: It’s wild the data will NPCs just they don’t even live up to that it’s crazy (0:40:33) Al: Next, fields of mystery, I have announced a merch collection. (0:40:37) Al: So, you know, go get your fields of mystery on merch, I guess. (0:40:40) Kev: is it good merch let’s see i’m looking (0:40:45) Al: So they they have a they have they have a pin. (0:40:47) Kev: oh goodness what is that the first the first one is the oh yeah yeah the first one they show you is (0:40:53) Al: They have a pin that you tilt and it changes between (0:40:58) Al: more clothes and fewer clothes. (0:41:00) Kev: Yeah, it’s it’s (0:41:03) Kev: Presumably it’s I don’t know the characters, but that’s datable guy and yet (0:41:07) Kev: You know you tilt it and it’s and now he’s shirtless cuz good heavens (0:41:11) Al: That’s the entire marriage. That’s all the marriage. That’s everything. (0:41:12) Kev: Oh (0:41:14) Kev: My god, it’s all that. I’m not good in the laundry. It’s just (0:41:20) Al: It’s just like the pen from Friends, which Joey had, and you click it, and the women’s clothes (0:41:27) Al: come off, right? Like, what is this? Why is this your only piece of marriage? And it’s two characters. (0:41:28) Kev: Yeah! laughs (0:41:37) Kev: Yes, too! laughs (0:41:38) Al: Two characters, one male, one female. (0:41:41) Kev: Oh, that’s incredible! laughs (0:41:41) Al: What a weird decision. (0:41:47) Kev: Oh, and… (0:41:48) Al: I need to go what I need to go read the comments. (0:41:49) Kev: Beholds in… it’s… why I need to understand how… because… (0:41:55) Al: Oh, people, people like this. (0:41:58) Kev: Oh, the first one’s “Lily, Take My Money.” Oh my goodness, these… oh! (0:42:05) Kev: This is why we’re in this cottagecore world, brain rot, dateable nonsense. (0:42:12) Kev: It’s your fault, commenters. (0:42:15) Kev: And what kills me is Fields of Mystery has that kind of 90s anime art style vibe. (0:42:23) Kev: You could play off that, right, for your merch, but no, we get to… (0:42:28) Kev: Two pins that take off the character’s clothes! (0:42:34) Al: odd decision it’s like they sit down and they go right okay we’re gonna make some merch what’s our (0:42:38) Al: first merch gonna be a poster no no not a poster like a t-shirt no not a t-shirt a pin yeah we (0:42:40) Kev: Apparently according to the commenters. (0:42:47) Al: could do a pin but what if it was a pin where they undress them I just I don’t I don’t (0:42:54) Kev: Ohh, look, alright, look, I mean, I mean, I tried to be delicate, I have kids gloves when I talk about these subjects, but look, this commenter here said it’s straight, it’s the fields of gooning. (0:43:15) Kev: Ohh, good heavens. Worst part is, it looks like it’s gonna be a huge success, so. (0:43:21) Al: Oh probably, probably. I just like what you I can’t imagine. It just it would feels like it would be even if you want it. It feels like embarrassing to own. (0:43:31) Kev: Well… (0:43:33) Al: And the whole point of pins is to show them off, right? (0:43:36) Kev: Yeah? laughs (0:43:38) Kev: You just make sure to always show it off at one angle and never ever move it to the other angle. laughs (0:43:49) Al: All right moving on to a very interesting story, a story of seasons. (0:43:54) Kev: - Yeah, okay, from the worst story to the best. (0:43:59) Al: It’s a little bit of shame we don’t have Cody on to talk about this but let’s go with it anyway. (0:44:04) Al: So story of seasons and well Marvelous, the company that makes, well they’re the European (0:44:12) Al: company that ports and not ports, they translate and publish the story of season games. (0:44:20) Al: I just know that Marvelous is the Japanese version of the company as well, (0:44:24) Al: they are the same company now aren’t they, I think. Anyway it doesn’t matter, (0:44:27) Al: anyway story of seasons company, the European part of it have made a partnership, they started in 2020, (0:44:36) Al: they

Nonprofits, your “10 blue links” era is over. In this episode, Avinash Kaushik (Human-Made Machine; Occam's Razor) breaks down Answer Engine Optimization—why LLMs now decide who gets seen, why third-party chatter outweighs your own site, and what to do about it. We get tactical: build AI-resistant content (genuine novelty + depth), go multimodal (text, video, audio), and stamp everything with real attribution so bots can't regurgitate you into sludge. We also cover measurement that isn't delusional—group your AEO referrals, expect fewer visits but higher intent, and stop worshiping last-click and vanity metrics. Avinash updates the 10/90 rule for the AI age (invest in people, plus “synthetic interns”), and torpedoes linear funnels in favor of See-Think-Do-Care anchored in intent. If you want a blunt, practical playbook for staying visible—and actually converting—when answers beat searches, this is it. About Avinash Avinash Kaushik is a leading voice in marketing analytics—the author of Web Analytics: An Hour a Day and Web Analytics 2.0, publisher of the Marketing Analytics Intersect newsletter, and longtime writer of the Occam's Razor blog. He leads strategy at Human Made Machine, advises Tapestry on brand strategy/marketing transformation, and previously served as Google's Digital Marketing Evangelist. Uniquely, he donates 100% of his book royalties and paid newsletter revenue to charity (civil rights, early childhood education, UN OCHA; previously Smile Train and Doctors Without Borders). He also co-founded Market Motive. Resource Links Avinash Kaushik — Occam's Razor (site/home) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik Marketing Analytics Intersect (newsletter sign-up) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik AEO series starter: “AI Age Marketing: Bye SEO, Hello AEO!” Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik See-Think-Do-Care (framework explainer) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik Books: Web Analytics: An Hour a Day | Web Analytics 2.0 (author pages) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik+1 Human Made Machine (creative pre-testing) — Home | About | Products humanmademachine.com+2humanmademachine.com+2 Tapestry (Coach, Kate Spade) (company site) Tapestry Tools mentioned (AEO measurement): Trakkr (AI visibility / prompts / sentiment) Trakkr Evertune (AI Brand Index & monitoring) evertune.ai GA4 how-tos (for your AEO channel + attribution): Custom Channel Groups (create an “AEO” channel) Google Help Attribution Paths report (multi-touch view) Google Help Nonprofit vetting (Avinash's donation diligence): Charity Navigator (ratings) Charity Navigator Google for Nonprofits — Gemini & NotebookLM (AI access) Announcement / overview | Workspace AI for nonprofits blog.googleGoogle Help Example NGO Avinash supports: EMERGENCY (Italy) EMERGENCY Transcript Avinash Kaushik: [00:00:00] So traffic's gonna go down. So if you're a business, you're a nonprofit, how. Do you deal with the fact that you're gonna lose a lot of traffic that you get from a search engine? Today, when all of humanity moves to the answer Engine W world, only about two or 3% of the people are doing it. It's growing very rapidly. Um, and so the art of answer engine optimization is making sure that we are building for these LMS and not getting stuck with only solving for Google with the old SEO techniques. Some of them still work, but you need to learn a lot of new stuff because on average, organic traffic will drop between 16 to 64% negative and paid search traffic will drop between five to 30% negative. And that is a huge challenge. And the reason you should start with AEO now ​ George Weiner: [00:01:00] This week's guest, Avinash Kaushik is an absolute hero of mine because of his amazing, uh, work in the field of web analytics. And also, more importantly, I'd say education. Avinash Kaushik, , digital marketing evangelist at Google for Google Analytics. He spent 16 years there. He basically is. In the room where it happened, when the underlying ability to understand what's going on on our websites was was created. More importantly, I think for me, you know, he joined us on episode 45 back in 2016, and he still is, I believe, on the cutting edge of what's about to happen with AEO and the death of SEO. I wanna unpack that 'cause we kind of fly through terms [00:02:00] before we get into this podcast interview AEO. Answer engine optimization. It's this world of saying, alright, how do we create content that can't just be, , regurgitated by bots, , wholesale taken. And it's a big shift from SEO search engine optimization. This classic work of creating content for Google to give us 10 blue links for people to click on that behavior is changing. And when. We go through a period of change. I always wanna look at primary sources. The people that, , are likely to know the most and do the most. And he operates in the for-profit world. But make no mistake, he cares deeply about nonprofits. His expertise, , has frankly been tested, proven and reproven. So I pay attention when he says things like, SEO is going away, and AEO is here to stay. So I give you Avan Kashic. I'm beyond excited that he has come back. He was on our 45th episode and now we are well over our 450th episode. So, , who knows what'll happen next time we talk to him. [00:03:00] This week on the podcast, we have Avinash Kaushik. He is currently the chief strategy officer at Human Made Machine, but actually returning guest after many, many years, and I know him because he basically introduced me to Google Analytics, wrote the literal book on it, and also helped, by the way. No big deal. Literally birth Google Analytics for everyone. During his time at Google, I could spend the entire podcast talking about, uh, the amazing amounts that you have contributed to, uh, marketing and analytics. But I'd rather just real quick, uh, how are you doing and how would you describe your, uh, your role right now? Avinash Kaushik: Oh, thank you. So it's very excited to be back. Um, look forward to the discussion today. I do, I do several things concurrently, of course. I, I, I am an author and I write this weekly newsletter on marketing and analytics. Um, I am the Chief Strategy Officer at Human Made Machine, a company [00:04:00] that obsesses about helping brands win before they spend by doing creative pretesting. And then I also do, uh, uh, consulting at Tapestry, which owns Coach and Kate Spades. And my work focuses on brand strategy and marketing transformation globally. George Weiner: , Amazing. And of course, Occam's Razor. The, the, yes, the blog, which is incredible. I happen to be a, uh, a subscriber. You know, I often think of you in the nonprofit landscape, even though you operate, um, across many different brands, because personally, you also actually donate all of your proceeds from your books, from your blog, from your subscription. You are donating all of that, um, because that's just who you are and what you do. So I also look at you as like team nonprofit, though. Avinash Kaushik: You're very kind. No, no, I, I, yeah. All the proceeds from both of my books and now my newsletter, premium newsletter. It's about $200,000 a year, uh, donated to nonprofits, and a hundred [00:05:00] percent of the revenue is donated nonprofit, uh, nonprofits. And, and for me, it, it's been ai. Then I have to figure out. Which ones, and so I research nonprofits and I look up their cha charity navigators, and I follow up with the people and I check in on the works while, while don't work at a nonprofit, but as a customer of nonprofits, if you will. I, I keep sort of very close tabs on the amazing work that these charities do around the world. So feel very close to the people that you work with very closely. George Weiner: So recently I got an all caps subject line from you. Well, not from you talking about this new acronym that was coming to destroy the world, I think is what you, no, AEO. Can you help us understand what answer engine optimization is? Avinash Kaushik: Yes, of course. Of course. We all are very excited about ai. Obviously you, you, you would've to live in. Some backwaters not to be excited about it. And we know [00:06:00] that, um, at the very edge, lots of people are using large language models, chat, GPT, Claude, Gemini, et cetera, et cetera, in the world. And, and increasingly over the last year, what you have begun to notice is that instead of using a traditional search engine like Google or using the old Google interface with the 10 blue links, et cetera. People are beginning to use these lms. They just go to chat, GPT to get the answer that they want. And the one big difference in this, this behavior is I actually have on September 8th, I have a keynote here in New York and I have to be in Shanghai the next day. That is physically impossible because it, it just, the time it takes to travel. But that's my thing. So today, if I wanted to figure out what is the fastest way. On September 8th, I can leave New York and get to Shanghai. I would go to Google flights. I would put in the destinations. It will come back with a crap load of data. Then I poke and prod and sort and filter, and I have to figure out which flight is right for that. For this need I have. [00:07:00] So that is the old search engine world. I'm doing all the work, hunting and pecking, drilling down, visiting websites, et cetera, et cetera. Instead, actually what I did is I went to charge GBT 'cause I, I have a plus I, I'm a paying member of charge GBT and I said to charge GBTI have to do a keynote between four and five o'clock on September 8th in New York and I have to be in Shanghai as fast as I possibly can be After my keynote, can you find me the best flight? And I just typed in those two sentences. He came back and said, this Korean airline website flight is the best one for you. You will not get to your destination on time until, unless you take a private jet flight for $300,000. There is your best option. They're gonna get to Shanghai on, uh, September 10th at 10 o'clock in the morning if you follow these steps. And so what happened there? I didn't have to hunt and pack and dig and go to 15 websites to find the answer I wanted. The engine found the [00:08:00] answer I wanted at the end and did all the work for me that you are seeing from searching, clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking to just having somebody get you. The final answer is what I call the, the, the underlying change in consumer behavior that makes answer engine so exciting. Obviously, it creates a challenge for us because what happened between those two things, George is. I didn't have to visit many websites. So traffic is going down, obviously, and these interfaces at the moment don't have paid search links for now. They will come, they will come, but they don't at the moment. So traffic's gonna go down. So if you're a business, you're a nonprofit, how. Do you deal with the fact that you're gonna lose a lot of traffic that you get from a search engine? Today, when all of humanity moves to the answer Engine W world, only about two or 3% of the people are doing it. It's growing very rapidly. Um, and so the art of answer engine optimization [00:09:00] is making sure that we are building for these LMS and not getting stuck with only solving for Google with the old SEO techniques. Some of them still work, but you need to learn a lot of new stuff because on average, organic traffic will drop between 16 to 64% negative and paid search traffic will drop between five to 30% negative. And that is a huge challenge. And the reason you should start with AEO now George Weiner: that you know. Is a window large enough to drive a metaphorical data bus through? And I think talk to your data doctor results may vary. You are absolutely right. We have been seeing this with our nonprofit clients, with our own traffic that yes, basically staying even is the new growth. Yeah. But I want to sort of talk about the secondary implications of an AI that has ripped and gripped [00:10:00] my website's content. Then added whatever, whatever other flavors of my brand and information out there, and is then advising somebody or talking about my brand. Can you maybe unwrap that a little bit more? What are the secondary impacts of frankly, uh, an AI answering what is the best international aid organization I should donate to? Yes. As you just said, you do Avinash Kaushik: exactly. No, no, no. This such a, such a wonderful question. It gets to the crux. What used to influence Google, by the way, Google also has an answer engine called Gemini. So I just, when I say Google, I'm referring to the current Google that most people use with four paid links and 10 SEO links. So when I say Google, I'm referring to that one. But Google also has an answer engine. I, I don't want anybody saying Google does is not getting into the answer engine business. It is. So Google is very much influenced by content George that you create. I call it one P content, [00:11:00] first party content. Your website, your mobile app, your YouTube channel, your Facebook page, your, your, your, your, and it sprinkles on some amount of third party content. Some websites might have reviews about you like Yelp, some websites might have PR releases about you light some third party content. Between search engine and engines. Answer Engines seem to overvalue third party content. My for one p content, my website, my mobile app, my YouTube channel. My, my, my, everything actually is going down in influence while on Google it's pretty high. So as here you do SEO, you're, you're good, good ranking traffic. But these LLMs are using many, many, many, literally tens of thousands more sources. To understand who you are, who you are as a nonprofit, and it's [00:12:00] using everybody's videos, everybody's Reddit posts, everybody's Facebook things, and tens of thousands of more people who write blogs and all kinds of stuff in order to understand who you are as a nonprofit, what services you offer, how good you are, where you're falling short, all those negative reviews or positive reviews, it's all creepy influence. Has gone through the roof, P has come down, which is why it has become very, very important for us to build a new content strategy to figure out how we can influence these LMS about who we are. Because the scary thing is at this early stage in answer engines, someone else is telling the LLMs who you are instead of you. A more, and that's, it feels a little scary. It feels as scary as a as as a brand. It feels very scary as I'm a chief strategy officer, human made machine. It feels scary for HMM. It feels scary for coach. [00:13:00] It's scary for everybody, uh, which is why you really urgently need to get a handle on your content strategy. George Weiner: Yeah, I mean, what you just described, if it doesn't give you like anxiety, just stop right now. Just replay what we just did. And that is the second order effects. And you know, one of my concerns, you mentioned it early on, is that sort of traditional SEO, we've been playing the 10 Blue Link game for so long, and I'm worried that. Because of the changes right now, roughly what 20% of a, uh, search is AI overview, that number's not gonna go down. You're mentioning third party stuff. All of Instagram back to 2020, just quietly got tossed into the soup of your AI brand footprint, as we call it. Talk to me about. There's a nonprofit listening to this right now, and then probably if they're smart, other organizations, what is coming in the next year? They're sitting down to write the same style of, you know, [00:14:00] ai, SEO, optimized content, right? They have their content calendar. If you could have like that, I'm sitting, you're sitting in the room with them. What are you telling that classic content strategy team right now that's about to embark on 2026? Avinash Kaushik: Yes. So actually I, I published this newsletter just last night, and this is like the, the fourth in my AEO series, uh, newsletter, talks about how to create your content portfolio strategy. Because in the past we were like, we've got a product pages, you know, the equivalent of our, our product pages. We've got some, some, uh, charitable stories on our website and uh, so on and so forth. And that's good. That's basic. You need to do the basics. The interesting thing is you need to do so much more both on first party. So for example, one of the first things to appreciate is LMS or answer engines are far more influenced by multimodal content. So what does that mean? Text plus [00:15:00] video plus audio. Video and audio were also helpful in Google. And remember when I say Google, I'm referring to the old linky linking Google, not Gemini. But now video has ton more influence. So if you're creating a content strategy for next year, you should say many. Actually, lemme do one at a time. Text. You have to figure out more types of things. Authoritative Q and as. Very educational deep content around your charity's efforts. Lots of text. Third. Any seasonality, trends and patterns that happen in your charity that make a difference? I support a school in, in Nepal and, and during the winter they have very different kind of needs than they do during the summer. And so I bumped into this because I was searching about something seasonality related. This particular school for Tibetan children popped up in Nepal, and it's that content they wrote around winter and winter struggles and coats and all this stuff. I'm like. [00:16:00] It popped up in the answer engine and I'm like, okay. I research a bit more. They have good stories about it, and I'm supporting them q and a. Very, very important. Testimonials. Very, very important interviews. Very, very important. Super, super duper important with both the givers and the recipients, supporters of your nonprofit, but also the recipient recipients of very few nonprofits actually interview the people who support them. George Weiner: Like, why not like donors or be like, Hey, why did you support us? What was the, were the two things that moved you from Aware to care? Avinash Kaushik: Like for, for the i I Support Emergency, which is a Italian nonprofit like Ms. Frontiers and I would go on their website and speak a fiercely about why I absolutely love the work they do. Content, yeah. So first is text, then video. You gotta figure out how to use video a lot more. And most nonprofits are not agile in being able to use video. And the third [00:17:00] thing that I think will be a little bit of a struggle is to figure out how to use audio. 'cause audio also plays a very influential role. So for as you are planning your uh, uh, content calendar for the next year. Have the word multimodal. I'm sorry, it's profoundly unsexy, but put multimodal at the top, underneath it, say text, then say video, then audio, and start to fill those holes in. And if those people need ideas and example of how to use audio, they should just call you George. You are the king of podcasting and you can absolutely give them better advice than I could around how nonprofits could use audio. But the one big thing you have to think about is multimodality for next year George Weiner: that you know, is incredibly powerful. Underlying that, there's this nuance that I really want to make sure that we understand, which is the fact that the type of content is uniquely different. It's not like there's a hunger organization listening right now. It's not 10 facts about hunger during the winter. [00:18:00] Uh, days of being able to be an information resource that would then bring people in and then bring them down your, you know, your path. It's game over. If not now, soon. Absolutely. So how you are creating things that AI can't create and that's why you, according to whom, is what I like to think about. Like, you're gonna say something, you're gonna write something according to whom? Is it the CEO? Is it the stakeholder? Is it the donor? And if you can put a attribution there, suddenly the AI can't just lift and shift it. It has to take that as a block and be like, no, it was attributed here. This is the organization. Is that about right? Or like first, first party data, right? Avinash Kaushik: I'll, I'll add one more, one more. Uh, I'll give a proper definition. So, the fir i I made 11 recommendations last night in the newsletter. The very first one is focus on creating AI resistant content. So what, what does that mean? AI resistant means, uh, any one of us from nonprofits could [00:19:00] open chat, GPT type in a few queries and chat. GD PT can write our next nonprofit newsletter. It could write the next page for our donation. It could create the damn page for our donation, right? Remember, AI can create way more content than you can, but if you can use AI to create content, 67 million other nonprofits are doing the same thing. So what you have to do is figure out how to build AI resistant content, and my definition is very simple. George, what is AI resistance? It's content of genuine novelty. So to tie back to your recommendation, your CEO of a nonprofit that you just recommended, the attribution to George. Your CEO has a unique voice, a unique experience. The AI hasn't learned what makes your CEO your frontline staff solving problems. You are a person who went and gave a speech at the United Nations on behalf of your nonprofit. Whatever you are [00:20:00] doing is very special, and what you have to figure out is how to get out of the AI slop. You have to get out of all the things that AI can automatically type. Figure out if your content meets this very simple, standard, genuine novelty and depth 'cause it's the one thing AI isn't good at. That's how you rank higher. And not only will will it, will it rank you, but to make another point you made, George, it's gonna just lift, blanc it out there and attribute credit to you. Boom. But if you're not genuine, novelty and depth. Thousand other nonprofits are using AI to generate text and video. Could George Weiner: you just, could you just quit whatever you're doing and start a school instead? I seriously can't say it enough that your point about AI slop is terrifying me because I see it. We've built an AI tool and the subtle lesson here is that think about how quickly this AI was able to output that newsletter. Generic old school blog post and if this tool can do it, which [00:21:00] by the way is built on your local data set, we have the rag, which doesn't pause for a second and realize if this AI can make it, some other AI is going to be able to reproduce it. So how are you bringing the human back into this? And it's a style of writing and a style of strategic thinking that please just start a school and like help every single college kid leaving that just GPT their way through a degree. Didn't freaking get, Avinash Kaushik: so it's very, very important to make sure. Content is of genuine novelty and depth because it cannot be replicated by the ai. And by the way, this, by the way, George, it sounds really high, but honestly to, to use your point, if you're a CEO of a nonprofit, you are in it for something that speaks to you. You're in it. Because ai, I mean nonprofit is not your path to becoming the next Bill Gates, you're doing it because you just have this hair. Whoa, spoiler alert. No, I'm sorry. [00:22:00] Maybe, maybe that is. I, I didn't, I didn't mean any negative emotion there, but No, I love it. It's all, it's like a, it's like a sense of passion you are bringing. There's something that speaks to you. Just put that on paper, put that on video, put that on audio, because that is what makes you unique. And the collection of those stories of genuine depth and novelty will make your nonprofit unique and stand out when people are looking for answers. George Weiner: So I have to point to the next elephant in the room here, which is measurement. Yes. Yes. Right now, somebody is talking about human made machine. Someone's talking about whole whale. Someone's talking about your nonprofit having a discussion in an answer engine somewhere. Yes. And I have no idea. How do I go about understanding measurement in this new game? Avinash Kaushik: I have. I have two recommendations. For nonprofits, I would recommend a tool called Tracker ai, TRA, KKR [00:23:00] ai, and it has a free version, that's why I'm recommending it. Some of the many of these tools are paid tools, but with Tracker, do ai. It allows you to identify your website, URL, et cetera, et cetera, and it'll give you some really wonderful and fantastic, helpful report It. Tracker helps you understand prompt tracking, which is what are other people writing about you when they're seeking? You? Think of this, George, as your old webmaster tools. What keywords are people using to search? Except you can get the prompts that people are using to get a more robust understanding. It also monitors your brand's visibility. How often are you showing up and how often is your competitor showing up, et cetera, et cetera. And then he does that across multiple search engines. So you can say, oh, I'm actually pretty strong in OpenAI for some reason, and I'm not that strong in Gemini. Or, you know what, I have like the highest rating in cloud, but I don't have it in OpenAI. And this begins to help you understand where your current content strategy is working and where it is not [00:24:00] working. So that's your brand visibility. And the third thing that you get from Tracker is active sentiment tracking. This is the scary part because remember, you and I were both worried about what other people saying about us. So this, this are very helpful that we can go out and see what it is. What is the sentiment around our nonprofit that is coming across in, um, in these lms? So Tracker ai, it have a free and a paid version. So I would, I would recommend using it for these three purposes. If, if you have funding to invest in a tool. Then there's a tool called Ever Tool, E-V-E-R-T-U-N-E Ever. Tune is a paid tool. It's extremely sophisticated and robust, and they do brand monitoring, site audit, content strategy, consumer preference report, ai, brand index, just the. Step and breadth of metrics that they provide is quite extensive, but, but it is a paid tool. It does cost money. It's not actually crazy expensive, but uh, I know I have worked with them before, so full disclosure [00:25:00] and having evaluated lots of different tools, I have sort of settled on those two. If it's a enterprise type client I'm working with, then I'll use Evert Tune if I am working with a nonprofit or some of my personal stuff. I'll use Tracker AI because it's good enough for a person that is, uh, smaller in size and revenue, et cetera. So those two tools, so we have new metrics coming, uh, from these tools. They help us understand the kind of things we use webmaster tools for in the past. Then your other thing you will want to track very, very closely is using Google Analytics or some other tool on your website. You are able to currently track your, uh, organic traffic and if you're taking advantage of paid ads, uh, through a grant program on Google, which, uh, provides free paid search credits to nonprofits. Then you're tracking your page search traffic to continue to track that track trends, patterns over time. But now you will begin to see in your referrals report, in your referrals report, you're gonna begin to seeing open [00:26:00] ai. You're gonna begin to see these new answer engines. And while you don't know the keywords that are sending this traffic and so on and so forth, it is important to keep track of the traffic because of two important reasons. One, one, you want to know how to highly prioritize. AEO. That's one reason. But the other reason I found George is syn is so freaking hard to rank in an answer engine. When people do come to my websites from Answer engine, the businesses I work with that is very high intent person, they tend to be very, very valuable because they gave the answer engine a very complex question to answer the answers. Engine said you. The right answer for it. So when I show up, I'm ready to buy, I'm ready to donate. I'm ready to do the action that I was looking for. So the percent of people who are coming from answer engines to your nonprofit carry significantly higher intention, and coming from Google, who also carry [00:27:00] intent. But this man, you stood out in an answer engine, you're a gift from God. Person coming thinks you're very important and is likely to engage in some sort of business with you. So I, even if it's like a hundred people, I care a lot about those a hundred people, even if it's not 10,000 at the moment. Does that make sense George? George Weiner: It does, and I think, I'm glad you pointed to, you know, the, the good old Google Analytics. I'm like, it has to be a way, and I, I think. I gave maximum effort to this problem inside of Google Analytics, and I'm still frustrated that search console is not showing me, and it's just blending it all together into one big soup. But. I want you to poke a hole in this thinking or say yes or no. You can create an AI channel, an AEO channel cluster together, and we have a guide on that cluster together. All of those types of referral traffic, as you mentioned, right from there. I actually know thanks to CloudFlare, the ratios of the amount of scrapes versus the actual clicks sent [00:28:00] for roughly 20, 30% of. Traffic globally. So is it fair to say I could assume like a 2% clickthrough or a 1% clickthrough, or even worse in some cases based on that referral and then reverse engineer, basically divide those clicks by the clickthrough rate and essentially get a rough share of voice metric on that platform? Yeah. Avinash Kaushik: So, so for, um, kind of, kind of at the moment, the problem is that unlike Google giving us some decent amount of data through webmaster tools. None of these LLMs are giving us any data. As a business owner, none of them are giving us any data. So we're relying on third parties like Tracker. We're relying on third parties like Evert Tune. You understand? How often are we showing up so we could get a damn click through, right? Right. We don't quite have that for now. So the AI Brand Index in Evert Tune comes the closest. Giving you some information we could use in the, so your thinking is absolutely right. Your recommendation is ly, right? Even if you can just get the number of clicks, even if you're tracking them very [00:29:00] carefully, it's very important. Please do exactly what you said. Make the channel, it's really important. But don't, don't read too much into the click-through rate bits, because we're missing the. We're missing a very important piece of information. Now remember when Google first came out, we didn't have tons of data. Um, and that's okay. These LLMs Pro probably will realize over time if they get into the advertising business that it's nice to give data out to other people, and so we might get more data. Until then, we are relying on these third parties that are hacking these tools to find us some data. So we can use it to understand, uh, some of the things we readily understand about keywords and things today related to Google. So we, we sadly don't have as much visibility today as we would like to have. George Weiner: Yeah. We really don't. Alright. I have, have a segment that I just invented. Just for you called Avanade's War Corner. And in Avanade's War Corner, I noticed that you go to war on various concepts, which I love because it brings energy and attention to [00:30:00] frankly data and finding answers in there. So if you'll humor me in our war corner, I wanna to go through some, some classic, classic avan. Um, all right, so can you talk to me a little bit about vanity metrics, because I think they are in play. Every day. Avinash Kaushik: Absolutely. No, no, no. Across the board, I think in whatever we do. So, so actually I'll, I'll, I'll do three. You know, so there's vanity metrics, activity metrics and outcome metrics. So basically everything goes into these three buckets essentially. So vanity metrics are, are the ones that are very easy to find, but them moving up and down has nothing to do with the number of donations you're gonna get as a nonprofit. They're just there to ease our ego. So, for example. Let's say we are a nonprofit and we run some display ads, so measure the number of impressions that were delivered for our display ad. That's a vanity metric. It doesn't tell you anything. You could have billions of impressions. You could have 10 impressions, doesn't matter, but it is easily [00:31:00] available. The count is easily available, so we report it. Now, what matters? What matters are, did anybody engage with the ad? What were the percent of people who hovered on the ad? What were the number of people who clicked on the ad activity metrics? Activity metrics are a little more useful than vanity metrics, but what does it matter for you as a non nonprofit? The number of donations you received in the last 24 hours. That's an outcome metric. Vanity activity outcome. Focus on activity to diagnose how well our campaigns or efforts are doing in marketing. Focus on outcomes to understand if we're gonna stay in business or not. Sorry, dramatic. The vanity metrics. Chasing is just like good for ego. Number of likes is a very famous one. The number of followers on a social paia, a very famous one. Number of emails sent is another favorite one. There's like a whole host of vanity metrics that are very easy to get. I cannot emphasize this enough, but when you unpack and or do meta-analysis of [00:32:00] relationship between vanity metrics and outcomes, there's a relationship between them. So we always advise people that. Start by looking at activity metrics to help you understand the user's behavior, and then move to understanding outcome metrics because they are the reason you'll thrive. You will get more donations or you will figure out what are the things that drive more donations. Otherwise, what you end up doing is saying. If I post provocative stuff on Facebook, I get more likes. Is that what you really wanna be doing? But if your nonprofit says, get me more likes, pretty soon, there's like a naked person on Facebook that gets a lot of likes, but it's corrupting. Yeah. So I would go with cute George Weiner: cat, I would say, you know, you, you get the generic cute cat. But yeah, same idea. The Internet's built on cats Avinash Kaushik: and yes, so, so that's why I, I actively recommend people stay away from vanity metrics. George Weiner: Yeah. Next up in War Corner, the last click [00:33:00] fallacy, right? The overweighting of this last moment of purchase, or as you'd maybe say in the do column of the See, think, do care. Avinash Kaushik: Yes. George Weiner: Yes. Avinash Kaushik: So when the, when the, when we all started to get Google Analytics, we got Adobe Analytics web trends, remember them, we all wanted to know like what drove the conversion. Mm-hmm. I got this donation for a hundred dollars. I got a donation for a hundred thousand dollars. What drove the conversion. And so what lo logically people would just say is, oh, where did this person come from? And I say, oh, the person came from Google. Google drove this conversion. Yeah, his last click analysis just before the conversion. Where did the person come from? Let's give them credit. But the reality is it turns out that if you look at consumer behavior, you look at days to donation, visits to donation. Those are two metrics available in Google. It turns out that people visit multiple times before [00:34:00] they make a donation. They may have come through email, their interest might have been triggered through your email. Then they suddenly remembered, oh yeah, yeah, I wanted to go to the nonprofit and donate something. This is Google, you. And then Google helps them find you and they come through. Now, who do you give credit Email or the Google, right? And what if you came 5, 7, 8, 10 times? So the last click fallacy is that it doesn't allow you to see the full consumer journey. It gives credit to whoever was the last person who sent you this, who introduced this person to your website. And so very soon we move to looking at what we call MTI, Multi-Touch Attribution, which is a free solution built into Google. So you just go to your multichannel funnel reports and it will help you understand that. One, uh, 150 people came from email. Then they came from Google. Then there was a gap of nine days, and they came back from Facebook and then they [00:35:00] converted. And what is happening is you're beginning to understand the consumer journey. If you understand the consumer journey better, we can come with better marketing. Otherwise, you would've said, oh, close shop. We don't need as many marketing people. We'll just buy ads on Google. We'll just do SEO. We're done. Oh, now you realize there's a more complex behavior happening in the consumer. They need to solve for email. You solve for Google, you need to solve Facebook. In my hypothetical example, so I, I'm very actively recommend people look at the built-in free MTA reports inside the Google nalytics. Understand the path flow that is happening to drive donations and then undertake activities that are showing up more often in the path, and do fewer of those things that are showing up less in the path. George Weiner: Bring these up because they have been waiting on my mind in the land of AEO. And by the way, we're not done with war. The war corner segment. There's more war there's, but there's more, more than time. But with both of these metrics where AEO, if I'm putting these glasses back on, comes [00:36:00] into play, is. Look, we're saying goodbye to frankly, what was probably somewhat of a vanity metric with regard to organic traffic coming in on that 10 facts about cube cats. You know, like, was that really how we were like hanging our hat at night, being like. Job done. I think there's very much that in play. And then I'm a little concerned that we just told everyone to go create an AEO channel on their Google Analytics and they're gonna come in here. Avinash told me that those people are buyers. They're immediately gonna come and buy, and why aren't they converting? What is going on here? Can you actually maybe couch that last click with the AI channel inbound? Like should I expect that to be like 10 x the amount of conversions? Avinash Kaushik: All we can say is it's, it's going to be people with high intention. And so with the businesses that I'm working with, what we are finding is that the conversion rates are higher. Mm. This game is too early to establish any kind of sense of if anybody has standards for AEO, they're smoking crack. Like the [00:37:00] game is simply too early. So what we I'm noticing is that in some cases, if the average conversion rate is two point half percent, the AEO traffic is converting at three, three point half. In two or three cases, it's converting at six, seven and a half. But there is not enough stability in the data. All of this is new. There's not enough stability in the data to say, Hey, definitely you can expect it to be double or 10% more or 50% more. We, we have no idea this early stage of the game, but, but George, if we were doing this again in a year, year and a half, I think we'll have a lot more data and we'll be able to come up with some kind of standards for, for now, what's important to understand is, first thing is you're not gonna rank in an answer engine. You just won't. If you do rank in an answer engine, you fought really hard for it. The person decided, oh my God, I really like this. Just just think of the user behavior and say, this person is really high intent because somehow [00:38:00] you showed up and somehow they found you and came to you. Chances are they're caring. Very high intent. George Weiner: Yeah. They just left a conversation with a super intelligent like entity to come to your freaking 2001 website, HTML CSS rendered silliness. Avinash Kaushik: Whatever it is, it could be the iffiest thing in the world, but they, they found me and they came to you and they decided that in the answer engine, they like you as the answer the most. And, and it took that to get there. And so all, all, all is I'm finding in the data is that they carry higher intent and that that higher intent converts into higher conversion rates, higher donations, as to is it gonna be five 10 x higher? It's unclear at the moment, but remember, the other reason you should care about it is. Every single day. As more people move away from Google search engines to answer engines, you're losing a ton of traffic. If somebody new showing up, treat them with, respect them with love. Treat them with [00:39:00] care because they're very precious. Just lost a hundred. Check the landing George Weiner: pages. 'cause you may be surprised where your front door is when complexity is bringing them to you, and it's not where you spent all of your design effort on the homepage. Spoiler. That's exactly Avinash Kaushik: right. No. Exactly. In fact, uh, the doping deeper into your websites is becoming even more prevalent with answer engines. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, than it used to be with search engines. The search always tried to get you the, the top things. There's still a lot of diversity. Your homepage likely is still only 30% of your traffic. Everybody else is landing on other homepage or as you call them, landing pages. So it's really, really important to look beyond your homepage. I mean, it was true yesterday. It's even truer today. George Weiner: Yeah, my hunch and what I'm starting to see in our data is that it is also much higher on the assisted conversion like it is. Yes. Yes, it is. Like if you have come to us from there, we are going to be seeing you again. That's right. That's right. More likely than others. It over indexes consistently for us there. Avinash Kaushik: [00:40:00] Yes. Again, it ties back to the person has higher intent, so if they didn't convert in that lab first session, their higher intent is gonna bring them back to you. So you are absolutely right about the data that you're seeing. George Weiner: Um, alright. War corner, the 10 90 rule. Can you unpack this and then maybe apply it to somebody who thinks that their like AI strategy is done? 'cause they spend $20 or $200 a month on some tool and then like, call it a day. 'cause they did ai. Avinash Kaushik: Yes, yes. No, it's, it's good. I, I developed it in context of analytics. When I was at my, uh, job at Intuit, I used to, I was at Intuit, senior director for research and analytics. And one of the things I found is people would consistently spend lots of money on tools in that time, web analytics tools, research tools, et cetera. And, uh, so they're spending a contract of a few hundred thousand dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then they give it to a fresh graduate to find insights. [00:41:00] I was like, wait, wait, wait. So you took this $300,000 thing and gave it to somebody. You're paying $45,000 a year. Who is young in their career, young in their career, and expecting them to make you tons of money using this tool? It's not the tool, it's the human. And so that's why I developed the the 10 90 rule, which is that if you have a, if you have a hundred dollars to invest in making smarter decisions, invest $10 in the tool, $90 in the human. We all have access to so much data, so much complexity. The world is changing so fast that it is the human that is going to figure out how to make sense of these insights rather than the tool magically spewing and understanding your business enough to tell you exactly what to do. So that, that's sort of where the 10 90 rule came from. Now, sort of we are in this, in this, um, this is very good for nonprofits by the way. So we're in this era. Where On the 90 side? No. So the 10, look, don't spend insane money on tools that is just silly. So don't do that. Now the 90, let's talk about the [00:42:00] 90. Up until two years ago, I had to spell all of the 90 on what I now call organic humans. You George Weiner: glasses wearing humans, huh? Avinash Kaushik: The development of LLM means that every single nonprofit in the world has access to roughly a third year bachelor's degree student. Like a really smart intern. For free. For free. In fact, in some instances, for some nonprofits, let's say I I just reading about this nonprofit that is cleaning up plastics in the ocean for this particular nonprofit, they have access to a p HT level environmentalist using the latest Chad GP PT 4.5, like PhD level. So the little caveat I'm beginning to put in the 10 90 rule is on the 90. You give the 90 to the human and for free. Get the human, a very smart Bachelor's student by using LLMs in some instances. Get [00:43:00] for free a very smart TH using the LLMs. So the LLMs have now to be incorporated into your research, into your analysis, into building a next dashboard, into building a next website, into building your next mobile game into whatever the hell you're doing for free. You can get that so you have your organic human. Less the synthetic human for free. Both of those are in the 90 and, and for nonprofit, so, so in my work at at Coach and Kate Spade. I have access now to a couple of interns who do free work for me, well for 20 minor $20 a month because I have to pay for the plus version of G bt. So the intern costs $20 a month, but I have access to this syn synthetic human who can do a whole lot of work for me for $20 a month in my case, but it could also do it for free for you. Don't forget synthetic humans. You no longer have to rely only on the organic humans to do the 90 part. You would be stunned. Upload [00:44:00] your latest, actually take last year's worth of donations, where they came from and all this data from you. Have a spreadsheet lying around. Dump it into chat. GPT, I'll ask it to analyze it. Help you find where most donations came from, and visualize trends to present to board of directors. It will blow your mind how good it is at do it with Gemini. I'm not biased, I'm just seeing chat. GPD 'cause everybody knows it so much Better try it with mistrial a, a small LLM from France. So I, I wanna emphasize that what has changed over the last year is the ability for us to compliment our organic humans with these synthetic entities. Sometimes I say synthetic humans, but you get the point. George Weiner: Yeah. I think, you know, definitely dump that spreadsheet in. Pull out the PII real quick, just, you know, make me feel better as, you know, the, the person who's gonna be promoting this to everybody, but also, you know, sort of. With that. I want to make it clear too, that like actually inside of Gemini, like Google for nonprofits has opened up access to Gemini for free is not a per user, per whatever. You have that [00:45:00] you have notebook, LLM, and these. Are sitting in their backyards for free every day and it's like a user to lose it. 'cause you have a certain amount of intelligence tokens a day. Can you, I just like wanna climb like the tallest tree out here and just start yelling from a high building about this. Make the case of why a nonprofit should be leveraging this free like PhD student that is sitting with their hands underneath their butts, doing nothing for them right now. Avinash Kaushik: No, it is such a shame. By the way, I cannot add to your recommendation in using your Gemini Pro account if it's free, on top of, uh, all the benefits you can get. Gemini Pro also comes with restrictions around their ability to use your data. They won't, uh, their ability to put your data anywhere. Gemini free versus Gemini Pro is a very protected environment. Enterprise version. So more, more security, more privacy, et cetera. That's a great benefit. And by the way, as you said, George, they can get it for free. So, um, the, the, the, the posture you should adopt is what big companies are doing, [00:46:00] which is anytime there is a job to be done, the first question you, you should ask is, can I make the, can an AI do the job? You don't say, oh, let me send it to George. Let me email Simon, let me email Sarah. No, no, no. The first thing that should hit your head is. I do the job because most of the time for, again, remember, third year bachelor's degree, student type, type experience and intelligence, um, AI can do it better than any human. So your instincts to be, let me outsource that kind of work so I can free up George's cycles for the harder problems that the AI cannot solve. And by the way, you can do many things. For example, you got a grant and now Meta allows you to run X number of ads for free. Your first thing, single it. What kind of ad should I create? Go type in your nonprofit, tell it the kind of things you're doing. Tell it. Tell it the donations you want, tell it the size, donation, want. Let it create the first 10 ads for you for free. And then you pick the one you like. And even if you have an internal [00:47:00] designer who makes ads, they'll start with ideas rather than from scratch. It's just one small example. Or you wanna figure out. You know, my email program is stuck. I'm not getting yield rates for donations. The thing I want click the button that called that is called deep research or thinking in the LL. Click one of those two buttons and then say, I'm really struggling. I'm at wits end. I've tried all these things. Write all the detail. Write all the detail about what you've tried and now working. Can you please give me three new ideas that have worked for nonprofits who are working in water conservation? Hmm. This would've taken a human like a few days to do. You'll have an answer in under 90 seconds. I just give two simple use cases where we can use these synthetic entities to send us, do the work for us. So the default posture in nonprofits should be, look, we're resource scrapped anyway. Why not use a free bachelor's degree student, or in some case a free PhD student to do the job, or at least get us started on a job. So just spending 10 [00:48:00] hours on it. We only spend the last two hours. The entity entity does the first date, and that is super attractive. I use it every single day in, in one of my browsers. I have three traps open permanently. I've got Claude, I've got Mistrial, I've got Charge GPT. They are doing jobs for me all day long. Like all day long. They're working for me. $20 each. George Weiner: Yeah, it's an, it, it, it's truly, it's an embarrassment of riches, but also getting back to the, uh, the 10 90 is, it's still sitting there. If you haven't brought that capacity building to the person on how to prompt how to play that game of linguistic tennis with these tools, right. They're still just a hammer on a. Avinash Kaushik: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Or, or in your case, you, you have access to Gemini for nonprofits. It's a fantastic tool. It's like a really nice card that could take you different places you insist on cycling everywhere. It's, it's okay cycle once in a while for health reasons. Otherwise, just take the car, it's free. George Weiner: Ha, you've [00:49:00] been so generous with your time. Uh, I do have one more quick war. If you, if you have, have a minute, uh, your war on funnels, and maybe this is not. Fully fair. And I am like, I hear you yelling at me every time I'm showing our marketing funnel. And I'm like, yeah, but I also have have a circle over here. Can you, can you unpack your war on funnels and maybe bring us through, see, think, do, care and in the land of ai? Avinash Kaushik: Yeah. Okay. So the marketing funnel is very old. It's been around for a very long time, and once I, I sort of started working at Google, access to lots more consumer research, lots more consumer behavior. Like 20 years ago, I began to understand that there's no such thing as funnel. So what does the funnel say? The funnel says there's a group of people running around the world, they're not aware of your brand. Find them, scream at them, spray and pray advertising at them, make them aware, and then somehow magically find the exact same people again and shut them down the fricking funnel and make them consider your product.[00:50:00] And now that they're considering, find them again, exactly the same people, and then shove them one more time. Move their purchase index and then drag them to your website. The thing is this linearity that there's no evidence in the universe that this linearity exists. For example, uh, I'm going on a, I like long bike rides, um, and I just got thirsty. I picked up the first brand. I could see a water. No awareness, no consideration, no purchase in debt. I just need water. A lot of people will buy your brand because you happen to be the cheapest. I don't give a crap about anything else, right? So, um, uh, uh, the other thing to understand is, uh, one of the brands I adore and have lots of is the brand. Patagonia. I love Patagonia. I, I don't use the word love for I think any other brand. I love Patagonia, right? For Patagonia. I'm always in the awareness stage because I always want these incredible stories that brand ambassadors tell about how they're helping the environment. [00:51:00] I have more Patagonia products than I should have. I'm already customer. I'm always open to new considerations of Patagonia products, new innovations they're bringing, and then once in a while, I'm always in need to buy a Patagonia product. I'm evaluating them. So this idea that the human is in one of these stages and your job is to shove them down, the funnel is just fatally flawed, no evidence for it. Instead, what you want to do is what is Ash's intent at the moment? He would like environmental stories about how we're improving planet earth. Patagonia will say, I wanna make him aware of my environmental stories, but if they only thought of marketing and selling, they wouldn't put me in the awareness because I'm already a customer who buys lots of stuff from already, right? Or sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm heading over to London next week. Um, I need a thing, jacket. So yeah, consideration show up even though I'm your customer. So this seating do care is a framework that [00:52:00] says, rather than shoving people down things that don't exist and wasting your money, your marketing should be able to discern any human's intent and then be able to respond with a piece of content. Sometimes that piece of content in an is an ad. Sometimes it's a webpage, sometimes it's an email. Sometimes it's a video. Sometimes it's a podcast. This idea of understanding intent is the bedrock on which seat do care is built about, and it creates fully customer-centric marketing. It is harder to do because intent is harder to infer, but if you wanna build a competitive advantage for yourself. Intent is the magic. George Weiner: Well, I think that's a, a great point to, to end on. And again, so generous with, uh, you know, all the work you do and also supporting nonprofits in the many ways that you do. And I'm, uh, always, always watching and seeing what I'm missing when, um, when a new, uh, AKA's Razor and Newsletter come out. So any final sign off [00:53:00] here on how do people find you? How do people help you? Let's hear it. Avinash Kaushik: You can just Google or answer Engine Me. It's, I'm not hard. I hard to find, but if you're a nonprofit, you can sign up for my newsletter, TMAI marketing analytics newsletter. Um, there's a free one and a paid one, so you can just sign up for the free one. It's a newsletter that comes out every five weeks. It's completely free, no strings or anything. And that way I'll be happy to share my stories around better marketing and analytics using the free newsletter for you so you can sign up for that. George Weiner: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Avan. And maybe, maybe we'll have to take you up on that offer to talk sometime next year and see, uh, if maybe we're, we're all just sort of, uh, hanging out with synthetic humans nonstop. Thank you so much. It was fun, George. [00:54:00]

近期川普公佈了台灣以及半導體關稅，半導體有豁免條件的情況下，本週費半、S&P 500、那斯達克再度創下歷史新高，台股距離歷史高點也只剩一步之遙，但台灣情況究竟如何？ 本集邀請研究員 Jat 來聊聊，台灣、半導體關稅到底課了什麼？內外需如何被影響？產業間產生哪些分歧？有可能因為美國施壓導致台灣本土產業空洞化嗎？

Your gut is more than just a digestive organ- it's a living symphony, and every note tells a story about your health!In this enlightening and eye-opening episode, Ali sits down with Virginia A. Caldwell, MM, MT-BC, NMT, HNP—a board-certified music therapist and owner of Caldwell Community Services—to explore the fascinating connection between gut health, music therapy, and whole-body healing.Virginia's journey is nothing short of inspiring. From healing her own endometriosis through gut health to helping others restore harmony in their bodies, she offers wisdom for everyone—whether you're just starting your wellness journey, living with an autoimmune condition like Crohn's, IBS, Arthritis or Diverticulitis, or simply wanting to feel your best.You'll learn: Why your gut works a lot like an Amazon warehouse (a great way to think about what we allow IN and OUT!) Sneaky toxins you might be overlooking—like sucralose and glyphosates—that disrupt digestion, mood, and healing The link between what you eat, how you feel, and your ability to recover from chronic illnessAs Virginia reminds us, “The road to good health is paved with good intestines.”This episode is packed with hope, science, and a healthy dose of joy. If you have friends and family who rely on fast food and processed snacks, consider this a loving nudge to share this conversation with them.  Listen now and let your gut's song inspire your healing.

Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree.   Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows.     About the Guest:   Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact.   Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry.   Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate.   Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters.   Ways to connect with Donna:   https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737   **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle?   Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see.   Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that,   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle.   Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and   Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was.   Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters.   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college?   Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I   Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though.   Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey.   Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society.   Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on.   Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world.   Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even,   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit,   Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so   Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So   Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams.   Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So   Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win.   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about.   Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up.   Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily,   Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's   Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually,   Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock   Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do.   Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all?   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall.   Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.   Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge.   Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority.   Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for   Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition?   Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me.   Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use.   Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what   Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right,   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them   Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days.   Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature   Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually,   Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you.   49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really   Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So,   Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next?   Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that   Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say,   Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside.   Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards.   Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If   Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on.   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again?   Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today,   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be?   Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well.   Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that.   Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah.   Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline.   Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get   Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you.   Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake.   Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool.   Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you,   Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con

In working with property management entrepreneurs, we have noticed that sometimes the leasing side gets neglected. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Peter Roisman, founder of REV Leasing, to talk about unlocking the secret to high-performing leasing teams in property management. You'll Learn [01:38] From the Sports Industry to Innovating in Leasing [06:39] How to Hire an Amazing Leasing Team [20:27] Why Leasing Should be a Priority [28:37] How REV Leasing Can Help You Transform Leasing Quotables “Having instability in that position is kind of dangerous from a property owner standpoint and from a management standpoint as well.” “It felt like, you know, if I could read, write and speak well and clearly and concisely, then it gave me an edge on the majority of the world and the world in general.” “Leasing is sales in a way.” “Owners tend to be focused on the bottom line, on the value they're creating because it's usually long-term and it affects them directly. Third-party managers are trying to get a job done and they're trying to do it as efficiently as possible.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Peter Roisman (00:00) So I was talking to a high, high up person at live core. this person said to me,   Listen, I'm afraid to invest in my leasing people because they turn over so often. You know what I said? I would be afraid not to invest in my leasing people because they turn over so often.   Jason Hull (00:14) All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses,   helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses, done websites for hundreds more than that, and we've run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate   high trust, gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to expand the market, change perception, build awareness, eliminate the BS, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right, so today, my guest is Peter Roisman of REV Leasing. Welcome, Peter.   Peter Roisman (01:36) Thanks Jason, glad to be here.   Jason Hull (01:38) Great to have you. So before we get into REV Leasing and talking about the topic at hand, which is related to leasing teams and getting all that going, give us a little bit of background of how did you get into entrepreneurism and give us the backstory of leading to REV Leasing.   Peter Roisman (01:56) Yeah. So I guess I was born to be an entrepreneur because I started my first business at 23 and, uh, stayed in that business for 15 or so years. was a sports agent, sports lawyer, and, ran around the country representing athletes and coaches and other types of sporting celebrities. And then had a younger family and wanted to be home a little more than being on the road 26 weeks a year. So I got into other kinds of businesses.   including real estate, started developing surgery centers probably another five years after that, and did that for 10 years, developed 21 surgery centers around six states. And from there, I got into the multifamily leasing business because my business partners, longtime friends,   I saw a void in that particular position within the multifamily property management world. As you know, it's a high turnover position and, you know.   It's the tip of the spear, as you say, and probably deserves a lot of respect because it's responsible for 97 % plus all revenues. And it's the first person anyone meets on a property. it sets the tone and is really important. And having instability in that position is kind of dangerous from a property owner standpoint and from a management standpoint as well.   Jason Hull (03:16) Very cool. So what kind of inspired the, you went from sports to surgery centers to multifamily, then to property management. How did this path work out in your mind?   Peter Roisman (03:28) Well, when   I was in law school, my wife will remember this, I was debating very hard between being a developer and being a sports lawyer, sports agent. And the sports agent won because I had my first client when I was already in law school. And so, you know, I was started and I got going and didn't have a lot of time for real estate development at the time as I was doing this. And I was always, you my father was a real estate developer as well as a lawyer and it ran in the family. But, you know, a lot of my friends   are many decade developers and owners and property managers. And so it was a natural evolution. The development of surgery centers kind of led to the next phase of my real estate journey.   Jason Hull (04:07) Got it. Okay. Interesting. Interesting path. What do you feel like, I mean, being a sports agent and doing that, that's a very different and interesting career than doing the property management stuff. What do you feel like that empowered you or educated you on or enabled you to do? I mean, it sounds like there's some unique skills that come along with that.   Peter Roisman (04:28) I think so. I like to think that the thing I learned in college and I went to a liberal arts school was to communicate. it felt like, you know, if I could read, write and speak well and clearly and concisely, then it gave me an edge on the majority of the world and the world in general. So.   I think, you know, understanding for the sports agency world, had to understand value and marketing as well as contracts and positioning your clients. So, you know, it's not that different if you think of a client as a property in a way. It's how do you position it best? It's kind of similar. It was true when I   got to, you know, think that was similar when I was a sports agent, I was managing, you know, high profile.   you know, successful, strong ego people. And when I was in the development of surgery center business, the only reason I was able to get in it was because I had done that. You know, doctors very much parallel athletes in that way. They're   Jason Hull (05:27) Yeah.   Yes, yeah, a lot of ego there. how is that? also curious, part of your job, guess, in being a sports agent with spotting talent and picking potential. How is that translated into business?   Peter Roisman (05:43) Well, I think that's absolutely true. And there's a saying that, you know, what determines whether you're a sports agent or not, whether you have a client.   Jason Hull (05:52) Yeah.   Peter Roisman (05:53) That's your qualifications. If you have a client, you're now a sports agent. So I happen to have a legal background, but many of the people I was competing against in the world of sports agency did not have legal background. They would just hire legal and they were, they were more marketing and recruiting based. And, you know, so I had, I had to take on marketing and recruiting skills and develop them and they had to hire legal so that we were in the same place.   Jason Hull (06:17) So you had a little advantage because of the legal act.   Peter Roisman (06:21) say a slight advantage and certainly in contracts and negotiating, sure.   Jason Hull (06:26) Got it. Okay, so cool. Well, that leads us, you know, towards getting close to REV Leasing. So how did REV Leasing come about? What is it like? Give us, connect us to that.   Peter Roisman (06:37) Sure.   Yeah, so it's different today than when we started six years ago. We started in 2019. We realized that as we talked a little bit about in the intro here, the leasing position is very important, but really, would say not.   The focus on it isn't quite where it should be in order to maximize performance on the property. the turnover is a scary thing.   When you have two or three times turnover of the same position in a year, and I think in a statistics was, was more than two times a leasing position turns over a year. it's highly unstable as a position that's that destabilizes properties. And so we realized that, you know, what people were doing to fill those voids, the job openings, a lot of times was hiring temp agencies, BG and Liberty being the two largest.   And, and oftentimes these were either recycled people from, from who put in a resume that said, Hey, I leasing somewhere else, or they were people really lacking qualifications and, and each of those presents a problem. And so what we realized was we could go outside of the industry, find talented people who could communicate and, and train them to be successful leasing agents. And so we did this about 500 times and we only took.   under 1 % of the candidates, we looked at resumes and took a half of 1 % and hired those people and trained them and put them out there in the field. think at any given time, the most people we had working on our team was about between 80 and 90. And so we had a pretty sizable kind of leasing replacement business, if you will. And so then from there, realized our first person we hired and trained was a manager of a restaurant.   And so she went out on property. We only had a trainer for maybe two weeks, which was not a full training program. It was a partial training program, but the client needed it. And so we put her out there and within a couple of days, they wanted to hire her from us as a property manager. we thought, check the box. We had done something correct for the industry because the industry recognized it. from there, we did that for a while and we realized.   it would be hard to manage hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of people across the country. It's a very challenging ordeal to try to do that. And so we didn't want to be in this.   grand scale human capital business. So we realized that we wanted to be great leasing teams. And so we built these these teams. We took the best people from our 500. We put them on these teams that, you know, if you've heard of the company class, it's sort of like what we became. They're these expert leasing teams that do lease ups and distressed properties and come in and fix a problem and then depart. And so that's what we did for our next, you know, iteration of our   business. We did that for a couple of years. We had all success. had no failures. We took properties that were anywhere from 78 % occupied to low 80s. And we took them well into the mid 90s and all the properties were stabilized and the owners were happy. that was great. But again, we realized the same thing happened. We could become class. I think they have 50 people leasing for them at any given time. But we didn't want to be that, again, that human capital business. So we   again, reinvented ourselves and now this is where we are today. We invented ourselves to be a product company. And so we've got two products, essentially. One is an assessment tool, a REV Leasing score, if you will. And one is a training program. you know, 130 online training courses and we customize the training courses to the people who are supposed to learn. so, you know,   It's an opportunity for us to help the broader market because we're not limited by human capital. ⁓ We can help hundreds, if not thousands of properties at the same time because it's a self-learning program. We can do some consulting to get them on the right track, but essentially it's an ongoing process of self-improvement and people getting better to capture more revenues.   Jason Hull (10:52) Got it. So the assessment tool piece helps to figure out if somebody could be a good leasing agent or is this broader than that?   Peter Roisman (11:00) Well, that's one way to look at it. I think we're taking people as we find them. So let's say we find a client, they have 10 properties and they might have anywhere between 10 and 20 leasing people. And so...   We'll train them all and each one of them doesn't need the same thing. So we will customize the programs. And so as we assess them, we come up with scores and we know where some of their gaps are, if you will. And, you know, the three major areas, if you had to pick three areas that are common for focus in our business today, it's discovery, it's benefits selling, and it's closing.   And so we find that if agents can do those three things exceptionally well, that covers most of the ground. Now there are other, you know, there's seven or eight other major topics, but those are the three, big three I like to call them.   Jason Hull (11:52) for leasing agents to get properties leased. Those are the major things.   Peter Roisman (11:53) Correct. Yeah,   I can explain why real quickly if you want. It's, you know, discovery is where they get to know the person that walks through the door, right? And so once they know the person, then they can benefit sell to fit the person's needs and desires. And so if they haven't done a good job in discovery, they're certainly not going to do a good job of benefits. And so, but while this is all going on, they're moving towards closure, asking for the lease, right? And so.   Those are the three areas. There's, as I said, seven other areas. We have about 10 major topics. And so, you know, that's kind of where we are with our course training.   Jason Hull (12:32) So it really sounds a lot like sales training.   Peter Roisman (12:35) Yeah, it's absolutely leasing is sales in a way. mean, it's connecting with the person, understanding their needs and desires, upselling if you can a little bit. mean, there's just, want to create a home for someone, right? And sometimes that home has to double as an office, right? We've seen that a lot lately in the world.   And so, you know, if that's an opportunity, that might be a great benefit sell, right? That's something, if you have to work from home, listen, we have the highest speed internet available. We have this area of your home where you could use it as an office. You know, those are the kinds of thoughts that we put into our training.   Jason Hull (13:12) Yeah, now you guys were in the placement sort of space and now you're more in the education sort of space. Do you guys still get involved in placement or do you partner with companies that do placement and to provide training material to them?   Peter Roisman (13:25) That's a   great question. We are not really in the placement business, but we're actually in discussions right now with a placement company to up train their leasing placements so that they go in with higher levels of skill and perform better when they land. yes, that's something we're actually, it's funny you mentioned it because I have a meeting on Wednesday, a second meeting to discuss that exact topic.   Jason Hull (13:51) Okay, cause I was thinking, man, maybe I should connect this guy to my contacts at sunroom and some others. okay. Yeah. All right. Very cool. So, you mentioned earlier when you were kind of entering sort of this space that you noticed some people had bad habits, they lacked skill. Um, I think one of the big mistakes that I've seen in the industry, and maybe you could touch on this is that a lot of people.   Peter Roisman (13:58) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (14:18) like property managers when they're trying to hire somebody for their team, they get caught up in this really limited thinking that I have to find somebody with property management experience. And it really seriously limits the candidate pool to the point where they almost really can't get good candidates. And they're getting people with bad habits, like old dogs who can't teach new tricks to maybe people that are like, or they have to go and find people with no skill.   Peter Roisman (14:32) So.   That's so true.   Jason Hull (14:47) or that are the wrong personality fit for the role, instead of just going find somebody that, for example, is just good at sales in general, and maybe has some natural personality towards sales that can be trained in property management. What are your thoughts on that? What have you seen?   Peter Roisman (15:02) That's   exactly the premise that we started our business on six years ago. We realized that it would be harder to untrain someone and then teach them from, if you could get them near scratch, to teach them from the ground up, then it would be to find people with those personality traits and skills, communication skills, and just start them at zero.   You don't have to undo anything to start the training process. So at those 500 people we trained and hired, none of them had any leasing experience. And so that's precisely what we did. And I think the more that the industry looks outside of itself and doesn't, by the way, someone that shows a resume with leasing may or may not be good.   But I can tell you this, the way promotions happen, as you know, if you're very, very good at leasing, what happens? You get offered a manager's job.   That's very typical in our industry. And so if you're offered a manager's job, oftentimes takes you away from the leasing floor and you're looking at a computer all day. And so those skills that you use really well to lease apartments don't necessarily mean you're going to be great at being a manager. It doesn't mean you won't be, but it doesn't mean they translate directly to it. the people that, so you have that group of people that got promoted, right? Out of the leasing position. What about the people that don't get promoted?   Those are the people whose resumes are circulating. If you think about it, not, it's the unpromoted talent pool that most people are looking through. They're sifting through trying to find the diamond in the rough.   Jason Hull (16:31) Yeah.   Yeah. I think salespeople like business development managers, for example, in a property management business and property managers, which are, you is a really loose term in this industry. It's a miscellaneous term that means just about anything, depending on who you ask. But in general, property managers, if you look at them as customer service people or client success people or client retention people, that's a very different personality type than a salesperson.   And so I would imagine that some of these, some of your training and some of these people that are coming up in as great leasing agents would probably like if they were going to take a step up, it would be towards being a business development manager. Cause those are important people. They bring in money into the business.   Peter Roisman (17:24) They bring in all the money into the business other than pet fees and parking fees and who knows what these minor minor fees. So I think one way to look at it is because of the promotion up and out right up and over to manager from leasing from sales.   Jason Hull (17:26) Yes.   Peter Roisman (17:41) You know, we like to recommend for our clients that they create a sales silo, if you will. So when they get promoted, they get promoted to a manager of, instead of the person on the floor, maybe they're a manager of a couple of properties and they oversee that. There's no reason that there can't be a sales career, step ladder, if you will. And it actually would really stabilize a portfolio in a company that owns multiple properties.   Jason Hull (18:07) Yeah, I agree. agree. Well, cool. What do people typically ask about REV Leasing let's convince some people that maybe it's a good idea for them to get some support from you guys.   Peter Roisman (18:17) Yeah, so we typically tell people go get a demo from us, see what our courses look like, try to understand. If you're a mid-cap company, you might be 20 properties to 100 properties, right? You're not Graystar, you're not LivCorp, you're not these massive companies that have thousand properties or whatever they have. I think LivCorp has 2,800 properties or something like that.   Jason Hull (18:41) Yeah, a few.   Peter Roisman (18:43) These large companies, they're very large. If you have 50 properties, you're running a large portfolio. This is a way to have, I don't know, what do you call it? A level scorecard? You can actually measure all of your leasing people against the same standard.   And that's great. You can train them all the same way. And so it's a way of portfolio managing. And that's a really good thing. It's a way of stabilizing a property. Now, when a property is stabilized, I like to think of it from a financial marketplace as well. A stable property gets better treatment from the financial markets. There's no question about it. A stable property will get better interest rates, a lower cap rate when it sells.   It will, you know, essentially...   It's one of those things where it increases the value of your property to be stable. And a great way to stabilize is to have the same leasing person there for a couple of years instead of turning over in six months or four months or whatever it is. Because when you're going to retain your residents, they always like to know who they leased from initially. They'll go back in the office and they'll talk to them. And so you'll have a much better retention, resident retention rate if you've got stability in your leasing office than if you have huge turnover.   And so, you know, we like to recommend, you know, by the way, you're, let's say you're,   you know, you're looking for capital investment, investment capital in the marketplace. You're going to attract more investment capital if your properties are stabilized than if they're destabilized. So, I mean, there's no reason to not add value to what you're doing if it's as simple as just training up your team and keeping them and having them feel important and be important to your organization. It's just empowering.   Jason Hull (20:27) You know, this is interesting because I think there's a lot of property managers I've spoken to that feel like the leasing side of the business is not that important. They just, they really just focus on business development and they focus on operations and they're like, and you know, seasonally I need some leasing agents. So they go and kind of tap some real estate agents on the shoulder and say, could you kind of open some properties and do some leasing for us and help us get these things turned over?   And these agents are probably not super well trained in leasing in general. And so how could, what do you say to that? And then what, how could REV maybe fill in that gap?   Peter Roisman (21:07) Yeah. So again, I'll go back to the stability thing because if you're thinking long-term, which real estate should be a long-term investment, The markets do change, you know, month to month, but you're buying something. You're typically not going to flip it the next month. You're going to flip it if you're even a flipper. know, people are buying whole too. There's no reason not to build a portfolio if it's cash flowing, right? Cash flowing positive. Why not? So the end of the day,   Stability is a good thing in real estate. know, instability is a bad thing. And so if you can stabilize your team and it's the, I had, I had, it's, the position that's probably the most unstable. think, I think maintenance is also a problem area, but we don't work in maintenance, but, certainly leasing is that position that turns over all the time. So I was talking to a high, high up person at live core. Okay. Just having dinner. said, listen, you know, this is what we do. And, and this person said to me,   Listen, I'm afraid to invest in my leasing people because they turn over so often. You know what I said? I would be afraid not to invest in my leasing people because they turn over so often. You know, I like to attack problems. mean, when I see a problem in business, I think you come up with the most creative solution you can and go attack it and make it affordable for people to use, make it make sense, and just fill that void. There's sort of a void right now when it comes to   keeping skilled leasing people in position. And I think we can help a lot of people with that.   Jason Hull (22:33) So do you feel like REV will help with decreasing the turnover? Or do you feel like turnover is just part of the game with leasing? And so it's really about being able to ramp them up quickly.   Peter Roisman (22:45) I think both. think you ramp them up as quickly as you can. But when people are successful at something, they tend to stay at it for a little longer. And if you compensate them well, and good leasing people should be compensated probably at the high end of the scale. Because as you said, they are responsible for revenues. And every dollar that comes in essentially is due to them. And so, due to their efforts. so,   You know, I would be afraid not to invest in my leasing people. I would want them to be the strongest, most confident, most capable people in my office. The management team has to be really, really good, but the leasing people have to be stable and do a great job. As I said before, they're the first person you meet when you walk in the door. They represent your company in so many ways. They're like the advertising for your company.   Jason Hull (23:37) So I think there's also this perception that a lot of property managers, they're so focused on getting their third party management clients that they're not paying attention as much to the residents or the tenants in some situations. then when it gets into, when the market kind of shifts and it's a little bit more difficult to rent the properties out, because there's certain times, you know, where it's very easy, right? There's maybe low inventory, it's really easy to get the properties rented out. But as soon as it gets a little bit tough,   Nobody thinks, well, maybe I need better leasing agents. I never hear that. They're usually like, it's the market. And they're just blaming the market. you're one of the first I've heard to kind of bring up maybe this counterpoint. So could you touch on that a little bit?   Peter Roisman (24:17) Yes, absolutely. So I'll step out on a limb a little bit too to do it because at this point in the late 80s, the Resolution Trust Corporation, when there was a huge number of foreclosures, right? So the government had to step in and this quasi-agency, quasi-government agency, Resolution Trust Corporation stepped in and created third party management. Up to that point, it was all owner managed.   And so that was the beginning of the shift to 40 years later, nearly 40, 35 years later. Today, did you know 51 % of all properties, multifamily, are managed by third-party management companies? More than owner-managed at this point.   Jason Hull (24:56) Interesting.   No, that   sounds like that would be even higher, much higher than a long-term residential, like single family, stuff like that. Yeah.   Peter Roisman (25:08) Yes, absolutely   right. So think about the third party management companies. They're highly competitive with each other. ⁓ I don't think they compete very well with owner managed companies because the bottom line is it's so important to owner managed companies. Every dollar saved multiply by 20 and that's what it means to them in value. Pick a number, pick by 16 if you want to use a, you know.   Jason Hull (25:25) Yeah.   Peter Roisman (25:35) six cap, you want to use a five cap, whatever you want to use. At the end of the day, a dollar means $20 is the way I think about it. And so that's not true for third party management companies. They're there to perform a job. They do by and large a pretty fair job, but they're not thinking leasing. It's not primary in their minds.   We're finding the owners are really paying attention to this. I would love for a day, maybe someone listening to your show, who's a third party manager, to get the edge on all the other third party management companies and provide leasing as one of the primary things that they do for a property. You know, when a class goes in today, or when we used to go in as this...   Jason Hull (25:55) Right.   Peter Roisman (26:18) I don't know, fire department, SWAT team, whatever you want to call it, to fix a property that's in distress or is a lease up situation. When we left, we found that we would get a call six months later and they'd be in the same situation. So isn't it just better to fix the problem on an ongoing basis than have to keep fixing the problem and bringing in a SWAT team? I think so. It seems to make sense.   Jason Hull (26:32) Hmm.   Yeah, so it sounds like I think, you know, when times are good for property managers when it comes to leasing, they probably get comfortable and think, well, this is just normal, even though it might be exceptional. And then when the market shifts and it's a little tougher to get tenants placed and to get properties rented out, you need to create a competitive advantage. And it sounds like making leasing a primary focus instead of an afterthought could be that competitive advantage.   that because you're getting properties rented out much faster than your competition when the market's tough instead of just saying well the market's tough and losing business.   Peter Roisman (27:13) Yes.   I think that's true. think, I think in all moments, you know, it makes sense to perform better than your competition. If you can get more dollars per square foot, uh, if you, know, if you give fewer concessions, if you don't have to use locators, if you can cut your ad budget. mean, all that stuff is cost savings. There's no reason to not save costs at any moment in this world. Okay. So we're really talking about revenues 95 % of the time, but at the same time, if you use us, you do save costs because.   people will will concess less often. will not use locators as often and their ad costs will be cut. So there's money to be found on both ends of this. We think the revenue side is a lot greater, but the impact immediately of saving bottom line dollars is real.   Jason Hull (28:04) So some people, some property managers maybe listen to this might think, well, maybe this solution of Peters is something that makes sense if I have a decent, like a pretty large portfolio, or maybe I've got a bunch of multifamily properties that I'm struggling to, you know, with vacancies on. What about the mom, pa shops that maybe have a hundred units or less that are managing maybe 300 units or less.   that would make sense for them to be reaching out to boost up their leasing chops, so to speak.   Peter Roisman (28:37) Yeah, the beauty of because we're a product at this point, it would be a lot harder for us to help those smaller companies if we were providing human capital to fix it.   Jason Hull (28:48) Right.   Peter Roisman (28:49) So every one of those situations still has somebody doing the leasing. So there's really no reason to have that person perform at the highest possible level and take the courses, get a training program that's customized to them and do the best they absolutely can and capture the dollars that they can capture. I think it's really, it's from small to large. think, could LivCourse or someone at the top end of the market use us? Probably.   That would be challenging, but it would certainly give portfolio comparability. If you've got properties all over the place, how do you compare your leasing team? You're looking at bottom line numbers. don't know. I always think about it this way. Let's say you're buying a property and you're looking at financial statements and you see how many leases they're getting a month and you see what they're for rental rates.   You don't know, we do because we now, we discover it, but from reading those financial statements, you don't know whether the leasing team closed.   eight leases out of 30 opportunities that month, or they closed eight out of nine, right? You just don't know their performance. And if you're buying a property, I know if I'm buying a property, I want to know if the leasing team is maximizing or not maximizing the opportunity that's there. And so if they're not maximizing, it leaves a lot of money on the table where you could actually go in and buy a property and fix that and then increase value to the property. So, you know, I look   Jason Hull (29:56) Okay.   Peter Roisman (30:18) at this, this is new data. This is data that can help investors, it can help managers, it can help ⁓ asset managers, it helps owners. It's just there's no reason not to be the best you can be. That's kind of the way we're looking at this.   Jason Hull (30:32) So some, think there's probably many property managers that will listen to the show and think, well, I don't think I have a problem with leasing. What blind spots can we expose for them right now? Like what, what leaks or problems are they most business owners kind of blind to when it comes to leasing? Cause I think some are probably thinking leasing simple. Like I just, you know, if the property is vacant, I might just go have somebody open it up and show it. And I'll use my showing tool like Tenant Turner or ShowMojo or Rently.   get them in and like, you know, it's just, sort of happens. maybe they're not tracking, maybe they're not maximizing, as you say. So like, let's, I think sometimes if they're not already reaching out for help like this, it's maybe because they have a blind spot or two. What are some of the blind spots you've noticed or realized that, and what impact could this have on this or what impacts have you seen?   Peter Roisman (31:06) Yeah.   Jason Hull (31:27) that maybe they're missing, what benefits are they missing out on?   Peter Roisman (31:30) I think the blind spots are some of the things we already talked about, maybe some others too, but the blind spot to me is.   dollars left on the table, you know, an empty unit, you know, if it's empty for a couple of months, that's revenue loss forever. It's like an airplane took off without a seat filled. And so, you know, and the other way to look at this is let's say a property is 95 % leased. I've seen a lot of properties that are 95 % leased that are not maximizing. They may be.   they may have missed an opportunity because the market around them is leasing at, you know, 30 cents more a foot and they're missing it. Maybe they needed to do some value adds, some small improvements, but they didn't capture everything that was there and available to them. And so from an owner's perspective, owners tend to be focused on the bottom line, on the value they're creating because it's usually long-term and it affects them directly.   third-party managers are trying to get a job done and they're trying to do it as efficiently as possible. so just one, I mean when I talk to third-party management companies...   They won't call us typically, at least in other iterations of our business, until they got a real problem and we were the fire at that point, because they thought they could fix it. And you know what? Most of times they probably could, but it did take focus. And I know people that are property managers watching this know when they're in a fire drill, because it'll be all hands on deck when they've got 20 units vacant, everyone gets involved.   Jason Hull (32:40) Right?   Peter Roisman (33:01) But you don't want to get to that point. You might as well have a stabilized leasing team that doesn't get ever get there. And it stabilizes your resident renewals. It stabilizes, you know, your lack of using, you know, advertising sources, your lack of using, you know, locators, all of the things. It's, it's. I guess if I had to tell someone listening to this program, I'd say, listen, just focus on leasing for a change in multifamily because it's important.   And you will save costs doing it, but you're going to gain on the revenue side significantly if you train your people up.   Jason Hull (33:36) Got it. Yeah, I think, you know, you mentioned dollars left on the table. Obviously you're going to lose clients if you're not getting stuff rented out. And if you're doing third party, you said 95 % might be leased, but they're not maximizing, which means maybe stuff's rented out, but they aren't pulling in as much rent as they could be. They may be not getting some of the other fees. So your system trains the leasing agents on maximization. Is this part of the process?   Peter Roisman (34:02) I think the system at this point, yes, we train our people to upsell. That's part of our program. We train the managers.   of the program, managers of the leasing team, to watch for things like that, to be aware of the market, to know who your sub market is, know people down the street that are charging, you know, know, $50 more, $100 more, and why they're getting it. So, you know, it's, it's, it's literally just more information and more opportunity to compete well. I mean, it's no guarantee you're going to win. But you know what, if you compete well, you could very well win your sub market.   Jason Hull (34:45) And so it sounds like one of the glaring blind spots that's created is just a lack of data, a lack of tracking, lack of metrics. They're not paying attention to how many showings have we done versus how many have gotten leased out. It sounds like your training also isn't just for the leasing agents, but it helps maybe the business owner or the head of the property management arm of the business to kind of figure and learn how to do this piece as well.   Peter Roisman (35:10) Absolutely. So they get regular reports from us. They'll see how the team's doing. They'll figure out a way to incentivize the team to do better because incentives do factor in here. We have a certification program. We're certified by the state of Texas, you know, for certified leasing agents. And so they can, they can put, you know, certified leasing professional, you know, letters after their name, if they complete our course, full course program. So that's kind of cool. And there's only two states in the country that offer that Virginia and Texas. And so.   We've got a Texas certification because we're based in Texas. But yeah, we're serious about helping the marketplace. And we think we can help virtually anybody that wants to help themselves.   Jason Hull (35:50) Now you've mentioned multifamily. What about property managers that are more in the single family residential, maybe individual condo units, small multi kind of space? this be beneficial to them as well?   Peter Roisman (36:03) I think learning leasing is beneficial to anybody. And so, you know, the answer is yes. I think, you know, the opportunity is probably greater in the mid cap portfolio play because you're improving 50 properties, you're getting 50 times the return on it, right? If you're improving one property, you know, you know how it goes.   Jason Hull (36:26) Okay, got it. Well, this has been super informative. Really interesting to take a fresh look at the leasing side and making that a priority. I can see how that would be a benefit, especially right now while some markets are really struggling to get things rented out and that vacancies are a little bit higher in some markets right now. I think this could be a big advantage for those that are wanting to up their game there instead of just   be a victim of the market.   Peter Roisman (36:55) It is, it's take the bull by the horns time. And it is a little difficult out there right now. know, interest rates are not low. They're in the middle. They're not as bad as they could be, but they certainly could go lower. And so the cost of operating a business, multifamily business is high. And so you have to find revenues where you can. If you can save costs at the same time, why not do it?   Jason Hull (37:16) All right, well, we know there's some big changes coming down the pike with the big, beautiful bill. And I think real estate investors in general are optimistic and excited about this. So it should be interesting to see what happens and how that affects leasing. But, you know, eventually. Well, Peter, I appreciate you coming on the DoorGrow show. This has been very insightful. Any parting words for some of the property managers out there that are listening?   and how can they get in touch with you and your company.   Peter Roisman (37:45) Sure, sure. You can get in touch with us at rev-leasing.com and you can request a demo. It's a good way to find out about what we do. And I guess if you had to take one golden nugget from this, I'd say don't ignore leasing. It's something that's not, know, that's really hasn't gotten the focus, the attention of the marketplace. I go to conferences and I hear talking about cost savings all the time and I'm not...   diminishing the value of saving costs, it's always very good to consolidate when you can, but nobody, and I mean almost nobody is talking about how to grow revenues in a realistic way. And so why not have your people be trained as well as they can and capture all the revenues you can.   Jason Hull (38:30) There you have it, Peter Roisman , awesome. So don't sleep on leasing and go check out rev-leasing.com and you might be able to grow your revenue.   Peter Roisman (38:43) I think they can.   Jason Hull (38:44) All   right, Peter, appreciate you coming on the show. So, all right, for everybody else that's watching this and listening, if you felt stuck or stagnant in your property management business, you want to take it to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest.   Peter Roisman (38:47) Thanks.   Jason Hull (39:13) slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

This week, we're tackling Catherine's fantastic questions about visiting Disneyland Paris with mobility challenges - perfect for first-timers navigating DLP's accessibility! More In This Episode:

 Diana continues her conversation with Beatty Carmichael about his book, 'The Prayer of Freedom.' Beatty shares his unique prayer approach that has reportedly yielded 87% success in healing various ailments. This episode includes a live demonstration of the prayer method, focusing on healing physical pain through guided repentance and forgiveness. Both Diana and Beatty discuss the spiritual and physical impact of unresolved issues and the power of structured prayer. Additionally, Beatty shares real-life stories of remarkable healings and offers a practical guide to his prayer method. Listeners are encouraged to test the prayer for themselves and share their outcomes. Relevant links and contact information are provided in the show notes. 00:48 Welcome to Wounds of the Faithful Podcast 01:27 Introduction to Beatty Carmichael and His Book 02:52 The Power of Prayer: A Demonstration 12:52 Real-Life Testimonies of Healing 19:55 The Importance of Forgiveness in Healing 24:45 Beatty Carmichael's Book: The Prayer of Freedom 27:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Bio: Beatty Carmichael is a leading expert in spiritual laws and how they affect our health, emotions, and behaviors. After 25 years in business, he uncovered a radical truth: most pain, mental illness, sickness, and trauma aren't rooted in physical or emotional causes, but in the spiritual realm. By identifying and removing the specific spiritual roots behind these struggles, he's helped over1,000 people find freedom from things like chronic pain, anxiety, addiction, depression, suicidal thoughts, and even bipolar disorder—issues that medical science often can't resolve. Once the root is gone, the problem typically disappears in less than 24 hours—with a documented 90% success rate. Beatty outlines this simple, step-by-step method in his book, The Prayer of Freedom, available at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com. Today, he'll expose why so many people stay stuck—and how anyone can experience real, lasting healing by targeting the root issue most others overlook. http://ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com  “To get freedom in your life, get a copy of The Prayer of Freedom today. It's available at every bookstore, but the best place to go is book's website at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com where you'll find additional information, discounts, and a free gift.” Beatty Carmichael Part 2 [00:00:00] I do have a sponsor 7 5 3 Academy. Our martial art program specialized in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. Colli. We take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Our fitness community is friendly and supportive without the over the top muscle gym atmosphere. Our coaching staff are professionally trained with over 30 years of experience. Get started by claiming your free class voucher. So go to the link in the show notes. This is in the Phoenix Metro area, so reach out to Coach David and coach Eric over at 7 5 3 Academy. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Last time we were talking with my guest, Beatty Carmichael. He has his book that we are talking about. We were talking about his book, the Prayer of Freedom, and he's developed a way of praying for healing where God answers. Those prayers 87% of the time. So if you were here last time, you know that he is a dynamic speaker. He has, shown us a lot of things so far and I want to give him as much time as [00:02:00] possible to, to continue to share with us how we can incorporate this into. Healing again, I'm gonna mention for the second time, this is, not a replacement for medical treatment. Please, incorporate this in with your physician, your psychiatrist, your pharmacist. Do not discontinue any medications or stop any treatments without the advice of your medical team. I'm not gonna go into Beatty's bio once again for time's sake. But if you did not listen to part one, please go back and listen to the previous episode so you get a full picture. There's a lot of information that you don't wanna miss, and so we're gonna jump right in here to. Part two of my conversation with Beatie Carmichael. Enjoy. So let's assume that we have some atheists on your com, on your podcast as well. You don't have to believe it to try it, [00:03:00] right. That's the key. Um, I don't believe putting gas in my car is gonna make it run, but I'll try it and it runs. Or the doctor gives me, uh, some medicine. I've been having this chronic issue for years and he said, try this. It'll take it away in two days. I don't believe it, but it doesn't matter if I believe it, if it's based on science. If I take the medicine, it's going to clear that issue up in two days, whether I believe it or not. And so that's the way. So I would challenge any atheist on this one, right on this prayer approach. Tell God, God, I don't believe you. I don't even believe you exist. You're gonna have to prove it. I'm gonna follow this process, but know that I don't even believe you exist. So these are just words coming outta my mouth and see what happens. I am definitely gonna send my atheist friends this conversation. Good. You know, I'll let you know what [00:04:00] happens. Well then if you're gonna send your atheist friends this conversation, can I role play with you the prayer that I would have them pray so now they can follow this conversation and actually do it on their own and see if there's a Absolutely. Okay. Perfect. So let me ask you a couple of questions. Diana, do you have right now. Any pain, any uh, anything going on that you can feel and measure, like de depression or anxiety, migraine, anything that doesn't work, like your right arm doesn't work, or you have glaucoma in your left eye or anything like that? Uh, yeah, my feet hurt today. Okay. And, uh, right now, do they hurt when you're sitting like you are, or do you have to stand up for them to hurt more? No, they're when I'm up moving around and doing things. Okay. But you can feel them right now with pain, right? Yes. Okay. On a scale of zero to 10, 10 being worse, what pain level [00:05:00] would you give it? Mm, right now it's a three. Okay, perfect. So what I wanna do is I wanna lead you into a short prayer. You just repeat after me. I'm gonna use the word God only. We're not gonna use any other deity names. Uh. For the sake of anyone else that may be listening, that may not be a Christian, but they may be a Buddhist or whatever. Okay? And while this works, I will state that I believe it works because of the God of the Bible and there's some very clear reasons why, but he doesn't care what you call him because he is still the God of the Bible. So we're gonna take that premise. And what I'm gonna do, Diane, is I'm gonna lead you in this prayer. For your atheist friends and also for the audience that's listening to this, I want you to assess, do you have any pain, any anxiety, any depression, anything going on that you would like God to heal if God really existed? And if yes, go on and label it on a zero to 10 [00:06:00] scale with 10 being worse, what number it is, and then just repeat after me as I go through this. Now, Diana, what I'm gonna do with you. Is there's gonna be a part where you're going to repeat out whatever the Lord's putting on your mind of sins to confess. I'm gonna have you mute your microphone so that we're not airing dirty laundry, okay? Uh, that way there's no restriction for whatever the Lord's putting on your heart. So this is what I call a four step prayer. This is just the beginning of the full thing of the prayer freedom. So it goes like this. A repeat after me. Uh, Diana, uh, dear God. Dear God, if you exist, I want you to prove it to me. If you exist, I want you to prove it to me. I have this issue I want you to get rid of. I have this issue I want you to get rid of, and then you would name it for you would be the pain in my foot, right? Yes. The pain in my foot. Okay. [00:07:00] I ask that you would remind me and put in my mind. I ask that you would remind me and put in my mind any sin I need to repent of against you, any sin that I would need to repent against you or any person I need to forgive or any person I need to forgive and I commit that I will repent or forgive them and I commit that I'll repent and forgive them. Perfect. Now put your, uh, go on mute so that no one can hear anything. So now what you want to do, anything that the Lord may be putting on your mind. If it was a sin, and for people who don't know, all that means is you know you did something wrong. Okay, so the words are I repent of blank. I repent of stealing the money. If you stole the money with someone, I repent of stealing the money with Tom. Always put the person's name. If you don't remember the person's name, [00:08:00] I repent of stealing the money with the guy in the blue hat. Just whatever the description was. If God is putting in your mind someone to forgive. You're going to say, I forgive Tom for what he said. I forgive. Blank for blank. Okay. So go on and do that, Diana. And then when you finish, unmute yourself. That's right. But that's where the mouth readers good. Good job for the audio listener. She's got her hand over her mouth so we can't read her lips. And for the audio listeners, y'all would be going through the same prayer yourself, repenting and forgiving. Okay. My list is short, so Perfect. Good. Alright. Now I'm assuming it probably included someone's name somewhere along the way. Right. Okay, perfect. So now we'll continue and I break all unholy soul ties with, I Break All Unholy Soul ties with. I release all judgements [00:09:00] against, I release all judgements against and break any unholy blood contracts. I'll guide, I'll you what these are in a moment and break any unholy blood contracts, blood contracts with with those names. I have called out with those names. I've called out and now God and now God. I ask that you take all my, for you pain in my feet away. I ask that you take, um, the pain in my feet away, take it from a three to a zero, take it from a three to a zero, and now I speak to the pain that's in my feet. Now I speak to the pain that's in my feet and in the name of Almighty God. In the name of Almighty God, I command you to leave. I command you to leave. Get out now. Get out now. Now test it out and see if it's still a three [00:10:00] or is it changed? I would not say it's a three anymore. Can you feel it at all? I would say it's a one. Perfect. It's not a three. Alright. So definitely, definitely an improvement. So it dropped by two thirds simply by saying that one prayer, which is repenting. So now we're gonna push it all the way up. 'cause I find you have to do it about three times. We don't do the whole prayer again. All we do is the last part. So let me guide you, God, I ask that you take this all the way out right now. Ask you to take this all the way out right now, and I speak to the pain and I command you all the way out right now, and I speak to the pain and I command you all the way out right now in the name of Almighty God, in the name of Almighty God. Go from a one to a zero. Go from a one to a zero. All right, now check it out and see if it's still there. Well, [00:11:00] it's, um, zero in the left foot, but I still feel a little bit in the right foot. Yeah, so now we're going to do, do it one more time, but on now, if only for the right foot. God, I ask that you take it all the way out of my right foot. Now, God, I ask you to take this out of my right foot right now. And in Almighty God's name, in Almighty God's name. I speak to the pain in my right foot. I speak to the pain in my right foot, and I command you out right now. And I command you out right now. Be gone. Be gone now. Check it out again. Well, I'm just gonna be honest. Here. Um, please do I hate someone to lie to me. No, I've never that way. I know. I'm just seizing. I I know. I'm just seizing you that it's still in the one on the right foot. Okay. But I still think that's an [00:12:00] improvement over three. Yeah, for sure. It'll probably by the time we finish on our call, I'll probably be gone. But what happens now is demonstrably all you did was a structured prayer. You got a consistent response that I always see. So what that means is there is a, some spiritual law that this is plugging into and that spiritual law always works. Uh, no, excuse me. I found that for me about nine outta 10 times, it works okay. There's some things that it doesn't, um, that I can't figure out on a, on a few things. Now, if you have something like multiple sclerosis or stage four cancer. It probably isn't as likely to work as if you just have anxiety or a chronic pain somewhere. Um mm-hmm. You probably won't believe it, but I'll show you the testimony if you wanna watch it. So this was about four, four or five weeks ago. I was over at the Addiction Recovery Center and one of the ladies, uh, had just come out of, shoulder [00:13:00] surgery. And the story is. Three years ago, she had a car accident. She broke her AC and her collarbone, but because she didn't have any insurance, they just gave her a sling, and so she held it in the sling and it sat like that. So she's in excruciating pain with no movement for three years. When she came to the Addiction Recovery Center, they have insurance, so they went to see an orthopedic surgeon. He says, I can fix it, but it's gonna be really invasive. It's gonna hurt. And so he had to drill through the bones, break them apart, reset them and wire them together. And then that's where she was now four weeks post-surgery. So she's in a lot of pain. Arm in the sling. I guided her through the very same prayer. I guided you, God, remind me of things I need to repent of. And then I said, test it out. And she said, well, it doesn't feel as bad. She starts moving it around. I said, see what the range of motion is? So she starts to move it. The whole [00:14:00] range of motion, as she does all the pain, is now gone. She can do the full range of motion with her shoulder on both sides. She stops wearing the sling. And then two weeks later, which is her six week checkup, she goes back to the doctor. He's blown away because she has no pain and not only no pain, she has the full range of motion that she had since before the accident, and he was saying before the surgery it'll take 12 weeks to recover and then a lot of physical therapy to fully get it back in use. Yep. Yet it all happened like that. Why? Because there's spiritual laws that this karma concept, you know, the same concept that we see that people call karma. It's a real concept because there really are consequences to being doing bad things. But what we don't understand sometimes is how those consequences affect us because this was a car accident. So we say it was just a natural cause and effect, but the fact that she [00:15:00] repented of things that God put in her mind, that he said these were bad things that you should not have done, and when she repented the shoulder got healed, tells me. The root of even what happened with the, the car accident and the breaking the shoulder at the car accident was a spiritual root. So once you get rid of the root, you can get rid of the problem. And that's what I'm finding throughout all of this. And it's revolutionizing people from like, just last night I was, uh, doing a podcast with, another lady and I demonstrated this. I said, do you have anything that you can measure? She says, yeah, depression and anxiety. It was like an eight. We went through that very same thing and it all went to zero. She started to cry and then she said, I asked her, how long has she, has she had it? She said, well, you know, I grew up in an abusive family and I've had this since early childhood, and she has adult children now, so all of these years, and it's gone in an instant, [00:16:00] and she starts to cry both with the relief. Also like a friend of mine that I led through the same thing, uh, his dad committed suicide when he was like 11. And then, you know, the whole family dynamic is just full of trauma and all kinds of issues and he's been under this heavy clout. And it wasn't until he went through this process. Now for him it wasn't instantaneous. There was a more gradual over maybe a couple weeks or so for everything to just kind of free up in his life. But he was lamenting saying. I wish I'd known this 34 years ago. You know, how many years of Lost Life has he gone through when he could have gotten free of it had he just known how this worked? So it's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I actually work in the orthopedics department. Oh, wow. So this really makes sense to you. Uh, yeah. I was watching the video about the guy he needed a hip replacement. Yeah. And so I thought, oh, [00:17:00] wow, that's, that hits home for sure. I'm always, ripping my rotator cuff. I've, I ripped it three times and had to do all the physical therapy and stuff, so I totally relate to that example that you gave. So can I share something all day? Mm-hmm. Sure. Anytime you see a pattern that keeps repeating itself, like you've ripped your rotator cuff three times, that tells me there's gonna be more than likely, I've got a 90% likelihood that there is a spiritual route. And if you were to go through the full process, so the full process with a prayer freedom is a worksheet in the back that you fill out and it's a memory jogger so that you can cover everything that is potentially possible. If you were to do that, I believe that whatever's going on with that, you'll not tear your rotator cuff again, just that point. Is it? I see the part, yeah. Most [00:18:00] of the time I get it. When I'm doing terrible form on my pushups or I, open the sliding glass door with a bad technique. Yeah, I, so if you're in orthopedics, you know about when you pull a ligament in your thumb, right? Mm-hmm. So I pulled a ligament in my thumb. I'm exercising all the time, so I use dumbbells and, free weights. Mm-hmm. And you have to grip. So as soon as that happened, I can't do any exercise. I can't even grip a five pound dumbbell, and it's going on for a week now. How long does do ligaments normally take to heal? Do you remember? Uh, six weeks at least. Yeah, at least six weeks. And I'm thinking I'm gonna be out of exercise for six weeks. Yeah. And then I said, you know, doctors are usually the last ones to try to apply their own approach to themselves. And I said. I wonder, Lord, if this has a spiritual root, it has a physical cause, right? I was carrying a chair and it twisted [00:19:00] in my arm. That was the physics of it. But is there a spiritual root behind it? So I said, Lord, remind me of any sin I need to repent of that could be tied to this. And he started reminding me of some things from a while back. Um, and I just repented that and, and it still hurt. I said, okay, that must not have been it. I wake up the next morning. It's all gone. So I start testing, I'm lifting heavy weights, and I'm pulling on and trying to pull the, you know, Ooh. And it's totally healed. I'm back to full exercise after only one week, so it even works for me. Wow. Yeah. So it you, the, the chair twisted and pulled it, but it was instantly healed or within a few hours by the next day simply by going through the same process. I'll definitely have to keep that in mind. Next time. Now people are listening and they're probably [00:20:00] wondering when you talk about repenting from, from things you did wrong, do you get any pushback with that? People that they don't want to, deal with what they've done wrong or they're offended that you brought it up or, yeah. Whatever. So, um. Lemme tell you a story to answer your question. There's this lady named Susan, and she had unforgiveness for her sister from about 20 years earlier. Mm-hmm. And for all 20 years, she knew she should forgive, but she was unable and unwilling to because whatever the sister did was just that painful to her. Right. So then she asked me if I would pray for her rheumatoid arthritis because she's had the arthritis for about 15 or 20 years, and that day was flaring up and I asked her, because God prompted me on this one, and I asked her, do you have unforgiveness for anyone? She said, yes, my sister. And I said, would you be willing to forgive her? Now watch this. [00:21:00] She wants to be healed. And so she said, yes. There was no question once there's the potential likelihood that she would be healed if she did it. So I just said, repeat this, God, I repent. I forgive my sister from whatever she did 20 years ago. And then I asked God to take away the pain of her arthritis. So I said, walk up and down the stairs and see if it helps. So she did. And she said, it feels a lot better. I said, okay, great. So I think you'll be good now. She caught it with me five weeks later and said, I wanna tell you the rest of the story. She said, ever since I prayed for her, she'd had no arthritis pain the week before, uh, that she talked with me. So this is now four weeks after I prayed with her. She said, I went back to the doctor and he retested me and says that my body, I have no arthritis in my body. Now. This is rheumatoid arthritis that she'd been diagnosed with 15 years earlier. Mm-hmm. And then she said. The [00:22:00] doctor said that my body shows no signs of ever having had arthritis to begin with. It's almost as if Wow, when, she did what God said to do, which is to forgive, that's a sin. If you don't forgive, then it's almost like God reversed everything. Put it back to normal. That's the same thing that happened with the lady with the shoulder issue. Mm-hmm. She said, my shoulder has a full range of motion as it did before the accident. It's as if it was ma. In fact, I can't show you, but she had a bone protruding right here that the Okay. Orthopedic surgeon couldn't put back in place. And after doing the prayer, the bone doesn't protrude anymore. She showed me a picture, here's what it looked like, and now here's what it is. And I go, wow. So all kinds of things can happen that we have no explanation for, but what I've learned is most people believe there's probably a God and that that God can probably do a miracle anytime he wants. What I find [00:23:00] is he simply does what we can call a miracle quite frequently when we. Go through this process and repent, say, I'm sorry, those things that he tells us to. So I do get pushback except for the people who want to be free of whatever it is they're struggling with. And then I get no pushback. Does that make sense? Well, oh yeah. And it is very much, Bible about the forgiveness. If you have bitterness against somebody and you hold that in your body. Your body feels that, and it, it does and it affects your entire body. It affects your mind when you are just, and you're not willing to move forward and forgive even if the person has asked for forgiveness. I'm sorry. That is, Bible right there that, and it's also if you be willing to forgive, then your body will heal. Yeah, and I was doing some research and science and other [00:24:00] studies, research studies find that between 40 and 60% of all chronic pain has a commonality of unforgiveness and bitterness that those people also carry, and mm-hmm. What I'm finding is if you get rid of that unforgiveness and bitterness, a lot of times that pain disappears. Yeah. Which is a direct cause and effect, right? Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a scientific empirical data. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It, it work, it happens. And medical science and research is finding that out. Mm, yes. I'm glad that we're on the same page about that. We've talked about a lot of things today and heard some great stories. And, was there anything that, we didn't talk about that you wanted to cover? Without being too unabashedly promoting. I would like to talk about my book. Yes. That has all of the instructions. This is a how to book. It's not a novel, it's a how to book even has, video [00:25:00] excerpts that you can go watch training videos on specific areas if you want more, understanding, but it's called the Prayer of Freedom. Now if you type in the prayer freedom at Amazon, you can get all kinds of any book on prayer and freedom. You'll never find it. So the best way to get it is add the word book at the end of the title, the prayer freedom book.com. That's the website, the prayer freedom book.com. They'll take, give you a link to go straight to Amazon, straight to the book, but you'll also be able to get some discounts on the book if you want. Uh, you'll see a video with some test, with some real life stories and testimonies about it. If you like and some free stuff as well. So let me encourage you, if you or your loved one you're suffering with any sort of mental illness, all the garbage from trauma from years back and you got chronic pain and even just the ability to manage life with the trauma in your head. 'cause a lot of times you're just like, you know, you just, you can't get outta your head. As I worked with these people at the [00:26:00] Addiction Recovery Center. That stuff just starts to disappear and now they can function more normally. So I really encourage you to do that. The great thing about Amazon and most booksellers, you can send it back in 30 days if you don't like it. So I'll give you, I'll give you my money back guarantee, right? Buy it, try it. If it doesn't work, just send it back. You'll get your money back and it'll cost you nothing. So there's no risk to trying it. And it says there's a free gift for the listeners. Yeah. So I have what's called a power prayer, which is, just a real simple portion of this prayer that has really great, impact in people's lives. And it's just like a little free gift. If you request that, then you can, uh, get that as well. It's all in the book, but if you just wanna get an advanced copy of it, then you can get it there. Wow. And we definitely believe here that. Jesus is the great physician. We definitely [00:27:00] believe in prayer here and this has been a great conversation to discover the power of prayer in practical ways, and, add that to our treatment plan of healing from all kinds of stuff. I'm so glad that you came on this show. I appreciate it. You're welcome to come back anytime if you have some new books that you write. I would love that. And thank you, Diana, for the opportunity to be here and share hopefully a little bit of hope and freedom for your listeners. God bless you. So Beatty and I, we talked. Offline. After our conversation, he prayed for me about some things going on in my life, which it was such a blessing just to talk with him. We have a lot of other things in common, but I [00:28:00] did wanna let you know while we were talking and before we hung up, I realized that my right foot did go to a zero. So, um, so just wanted to be honest in that that did happen and that might encourage you to try the prayer. Uh, if you would like and let me know what happens. Let Beatty know what happens. Reach out to him. All of his, information is going to be on the show notes. For you, the website and where to purchase his book and his email to contact him with questions or maybe some victories. Okay, folks, we will see you next on the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. Thank you for listening. Bye for now. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You [00:29:00] could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

Kristy and Tiff discuss the new treatments they're seeing practices adopt these days and how to successfully start the process (if you want to). They touch on the best ways to gauge interest, training and implementation tips to start off, how to track results, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are so happy to be back here with you. We are recording today from the comfort of our own homes with the ACs blasting. I am about to bust out my fan. is on the charger right now. I don't know if you know this or not, but Kristy and I come to you from the sweltering desert of Phoenix, Arizona. And I have to say, I'm crazy. My boyfriend is like, it is hot. We're getting out of here. We're moving to Prescott. And one day I'm sure we will, but.   I love where I live and every time I go travel to an office and I'm gone for like a week, I'll see two, three offices at a time. I come back in and just coming into Tempe on that plane over in the mountains, you can see the Buttes, you can see South Mountain, you can see the city and just like the buzz of it all makes me so incredibly happy every single time. I love where I live. I cannot at this point in my life imagine living anywhere else. So when I say that out loud,   People think I'm crazy. And I'm like, listen, it's beautiful here. My best friend, bless her heart, she's like, Tiff, it's brown. It's all desert. And I'm like, it's not. Do you see these colors, like the saguaros and the pink flowers that bloom and the yellows? And like, I don't know, Kristy, am I crazy? Or what are your thoughts? You came back to Arizona. So obviously, there's something to be told about that.   DAT Kristy (01:25) It's too funny that you say that because it's so true. I'm you know when I moved to Idaho everybody's like Arizona it's a desert and I'm like but there's desert here. I have to agree the Arizona desert is much prettier. ⁓ Southwestern Idaho is very deserty and we're talking brown. There's where the brown is but Arizona desert is very beautiful. Even this time of year like come on Palo Verde's aren't brown they're green.   The Dental A Team (01:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Bye.   Right? Literally   in their name, right? Palo Verde. My boyfriend always says, yeah, Arizona is like so inventive, the green stick. And I'm like, well, it's green. It is green, okay? That's our state tree and it's green. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I just think it's beautiful. And there's nothing like a desert rain. I know that sounds so cliche. Everyone says it, everyone hears it, but I swear to you, the smell in the desert after a good rain or even a light sprinkling is magical.   There is something about it that just changes the composition of your body and you become a much happier individual. just, can't be, you can't be angry in the desert rain. So.   DAT Kristy (02:33) agree with you Tiff   and if you and I can figure out a way to bottle that stuff I've always said we'd be millionaires.   The Dental A Team (02:39) Yeah, well, you know,   I just, my friend just told me this a couple months ago. There's actually a bush out there. I need to just take a picture of it and figure out what it is. We were hiking one day. There's a bush out there that you, when you pick the leaf and you like put it between your fingers, it smells like the desert rain. I'll find it. Yeah, I'll find it and take a picture. I don't know what the bush is, but I'll find it and take a picture and Google it so that we can, we could bottle it. My point there. Yeah. I actually had a friend in town.   DAT Kristy (03:02) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (03:06) Um, he lives in North Carolina and he was visiting and he was like, I'm taking some of this home so that other people can smell it. Cause it is incredible. And I'm like, yep, that's what Arizona desert rain smells like. So anyways, everybody who wants to come visit, we are here for it. We aren't taking any new visitors like to stay. I'm just kidding. You can move here. It's just, it's just getting crowded, you know, but visitors are welcome. Come.   share in the heat. I know most people come in the month of February for the Waste Management Open and you just let us know when we're here and Kristy and I will pop over and say a little hello to you. So Kristy, getting on to business, I love talking about Arizona and I would do it forever, ⁓ but we're kind of rounding out the year right now. We're heading into quarter four. This is the time of year I'm like, well,   we can still make massive movements, we can still make massive changes and hit those goals, but really we need to start thinking about what are we doing ⁓ after these goals are hit. So lot of people don't think about the next year, which is 2026 until December, but I'd like to start talking about it here in August. So one of those pieces, Kristy, I really wanted to chat today about offices that we've seen implement new treatment. And I know right now, ⁓ fillers, Botox, I've seen   a ton of practices doing like facial aesthetics and the lasers and I don't even know what they're called the ones and like all of these amazing things and takes me back to when I was ⁓ working in office gosh when I first started I was like 19 and my doctor's like where are those paraffin wax things can we get those and I was like you're crazy we are not a spa like we're not doing paraffin wax for our patients I have enough to do   chair side, have enough to clean up, we're not doing this, right? But he really wanted it and so we did at least, we did warm towels. So it's like, I can handle warm towels, it's all you got. But now, there is really like this spa aesthetic feel to a lot of dental practices. And I know there's plenty of us out there that are like, no, not doing that. I am a dig my heels in kind of girl. So I dig my heels in until the very end. But I'm kind of getting on board with it. I kind of like it. And it's adding a different sense and a different value.   And honestly, I love marketing and it's adding a different marketing avenue because it's a different demographic of people who can come for the aesthetic side and see, I love these people. Let me switch my dental as well. They may not, that's okay. They may love their dentist. But if you can come to one place and get multiple things, that's kind of cool. So, Kristy, I just wanted to chat a little bit about some of the things that we've seen. We've worked, you guys, just so you know, we worked with a ton of practices on adding aesthetics.   Botox fillers, ⁓ implants, just like simple single tooth implants, multi-tooth implants, all on fours. Gosh, what else? Orthodontics, making sure that the marketing is there, making sure that the treatment coordinating aspect is there, making sure that case acceptance is working, the schedule is working, the block scheduling. We have helped implement this in so many practices. So as we're talking today, just know we're speaking from that implementation experience and what we've seen really work for practices.   from our experience working one-on-one with doctors. If you're someone who's looking to implement new products or new services in your practice and you're not really sure on the how-to, please reach out. We would love to help you on a one-on-one basis. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Again, we have a ton of experience in this. have five experienced consultants ready to work one-on-one with you. ⁓ Kristy, Monica, and Trish are...   freaking incredible you guys. I have just seen them move mountains for clients in very short amount of time. if you are ready to take that step, let us know. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. But Kristy, I know you've had a lot of clients. You've actually had, you've had some fun clients that I can think of off the top of my head that are kind of fresh and new and starting out. And I know one in particular I can think.   probably is this like go-getter wants to add everything, wants to take all the CE, wants to implement everything and wants to just run with it. And then you've got some others that are like, I'm going to like take my time. I'm going to buy it my time. I'm to take the CE. Maybe in a couple of years, we'll be able to implement it. Like there's like such drastic differences there, but what kind of ⁓ procedures have you seen implemented recently? And what do you feel like your clients are doing really well?   to implement them within their practice with your support.   DAT Kristy (07:45) Well.   like you, the med spa thing has really taken off in dentistry. So adding in the Botox, the laser ⁓ and sleep, even for little kiddos, the tongue ties has been an area of exploration. with that being said, Tiff, think first and foremost, yes, you're right. I have one client that's kind of a go getter and and honestly him bringing the energy has worked really well for him because his excitement is   driving it, right? But one thing that I would say in the very beginning, if you're exploring this and you aren't that go getter, energetic, I'm going to do this attitude and you're kind of thinking about it, start to take a pulse with your patients. know, explore, hey, if we offered this service, is this something you'd be interested in? See if people are interested in it because you may be leaving room on the table, right?   And maybe you'll find out they're not interested and it will drive you in a different direction But with that being said, like I said take a pulse of your own patients, but I also doctors recommend that you ⁓ Get your admin team ⁓ Keeping a list of things that patients are calling in and asking for and they have to say no we don't do that because that's an area of opportunity that perhaps if you have a hundred people calling and asking   The Dental A Team (09:10) That's a great idea.   Yeah.   That's a great idea. I have never in my life thought of that. That's beautiful. I love that you said to ask the patients themselves as well. If I started offering this, is this something you'd be interested in? And that one's kind of an easy one when it comes to like Botox and things like that, because you can tell when someone has utilized that procedure before. So I've even had doctors say, where are you going for your Botox? Like, do you like where you go? Are you happy there? What are they doing well that keeps you coming back? even as far   is   to ask what they're paying because it really helps them to figure out.   how they can generate that within their own practice based on a scale of like, know, chatting with a couple of different patients, because you really can tell fillers as well. And all of that stuff, you guys, to be redone at some point. So I think that's a great idea. apnea is huge. I think the kiddo stuff is massive. I have a couple of doctors, couple of doctors, but then also I have a GP doctor that does a ton within the lip tie, the sleep apnea, all of those pieces for the toddlers and children.   She's so passionate about it that her team is behind her as well on it. So I think that's a really good point. And I think, Kristy, something you touched on was that passion and how excited that specific doctor we're thinking of is about everything he does, everything he does he's excited for. And so I just feel like walking into his practice, you're just amped up. Like the energy's got to be so high. But for...   everyone no matter what anytime you go take a CE, anytime you have an idea, anytime you're like I want to implement this and you go get trained on it, I think the biggest missing piece that I've always seen myself as a consultant and then myself even as a dental assistant or for an office is that information lapse between you taking the course and coming back with the information and that ⁓   I get from a business standpoint and a doctor's standpoint, it's hard to take your team to the CE with you. And sometimes it's not even offered to bring your team. So I get that, but that's where training comes into play. And I think that's where having someone on your side, a coach and a consultant, someone who's working hand in hand with the team who really can help create protocols, who can help with the verbiage because you're over there implementing. And I don't know, Kristy, if you've ever experienced this, I remember my doctor, he would get so deflated.   because he'd go do this thing, he'd be rammed up sleep. He wanted to sleep so badly and I hope to this day that he's doing it, but it was so difficult and we didn't get the training, we didn't get the courses, he was training us which was great, but it was like also we are doing everything we were doing before you took this course. So the space for me to learn how to add this, for me to take the time out of my day,   to implement this just isn't always there. And so the space to do the training is sometimes lacking if you can't take your team with you. So I know I've got a practice that I've helped a ton with sleep just in general at their practice because they needed the protocols put in place, but they didn't have the time to even sit down and type them. So it was like,   We're going to do this together real quick. Our tips got these ideas. We've got templates that we utilize with our clients that we're like, hey, these are my ideas. And we go back and forth. And we figure out what's working, what's not working. And Kristy, I know you've done that too. What have you seen work really well with practices for that training and implementation?   DAT Kristy (12:57) It's kind of funny because the ways you're talking I'm thinking of a client right now that literally just went she did take her team to Vegas for clear liner course and Thank goodness. were blessed to go right because you're you're right getting the whole team behind them and the energy coming back in is huge the energy really does propel the momentum as you're Trying to ramp up and to your point not everybody can take the whole team So so I get that yet if you can get one or two chances   to go and help you wonderful. If not, would definitely recommend coming back and having the conversation and have doctors speak to their why. You know, why do they want to implement this? What is their vision for it? And then create benchmarks. Like how will we implement this and what can we do? So if we want to do more clear aligners, what is   The Dental A Team (13:37) Yeah.   video.   DAT Kristy (13:56) something we can do every day to help that outcome, right? Is it add one more scan to a patient? You know, get those commitments from team and buy in and then have fun with it. We're always talking about the sprinkles and adding the fun. So find a way to gamify it. And if I do this action every day, it's going to create a better chance of my outcome, right?   The Dental A Team (14:00) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah,   yeah, and to that point, you're then tracking your results, right? Which is something that we have all of our practices tracking their results consistently for that reason, because we want to see the things that you're doing every day. Are they creating the result that you wanted? Are we moving closer to the goal that you were set after? Or are we moving further away from it? Because then we can see what we want to tweak or change or what needs to be added. And then again, to your point as well, what's one thing that we can add?   A lot of times we come in with all of the things and it's like, that's too much and we can't process it all. So if you do that, like one thing, so for sleep apnea or Botox or any of those spaces or though it's like, what's one thing you would change aesthetically if you had the opportunity? Like what's one question? You can start asking every patient that walks through your door. Do you find yourself waking up a lot at night? Do you find yourself, know, do your partner say that you're snoring?   Do you have a hard time falling asleep? Do you have a hard time waking up? What are the key factors? What's one question, two questions you add onto it? How can we layer this and stack to get things done? And like you said, maybe we're taking one more scan today than we took yesterday. We're gamifying it, we're tracking the results, and we're making sure that it's fitting. And that's something that I think as consultants, we've been able to really help teams get excited about.   and really be able to help them break it down because for doctors, for our visionaries, it's sometimes difficult for a visionary to see the path. They see the end result. They see what it is that they're after. They see the dream and the finality. We have to take it layers backwards and say, how do we get there?   The visionaries have a hard time figuring out how we're going to get there. And when they're the only ones who are trying to figure that out or there's no one on the team that's like, okay, I got it. I will figure it out from here. That's where the consultants come into play or training office managers to see that space to say, okay, what are the steps it's going to take to get there? And how do we incrementally layer and add onto those steps to ensure that we do? So, Kristy, I think you're hitting some massive spaces there.   with the tracking the results, the just one thing and making sure that we are training the team as we can. I also think don't wait too long.   If you've gone to a course and you've learned something, you need to start practicing it because you learned it. And then if you're waiting a year to implement it, you're going to need to go back for a refresher course because you haven't been doing it. And I've seen that happen. I don't know if you have. I've seen that happen, especially with like Botox, where they go get the training, but they're just like dragging their feet, probably out of fear and actually implementing it. And then they're like, well, shoot, I need to go get a refresher course because I haven't done it since I did it at   my training. Have you seen that too, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (17:27) Absolutely.   I love that you mentioned that because I think one realm where we're really good at this if you think about it is ⁓ Milling same-day crowns because they force you to find patients, right? They're like, okay have your patients lined up because we're gonna do it in those other realms We don't necessarily do that. So a component that I think we miss a lot is we plan the CE we schedule it we go the course But we didn't block out time to meet with team coming back, right?   The Dental A Team (17:36) Yeah. ⁓   Yeah.   DAT Kristy (17:57) So make sure that time dedicate the time to make sure it happens and Hey, let's line up the patients. Let's get them in the chair and start because you're right Otherwise, we just get back into routine and it's gone to the wayside and you know See is wonderful and it's all knowledge. But unless we're interpreting it into something It's just money spent right? Yeah   The Dental A Team (18:22) Agreed. Yeah, agreed.   And it makes me think of two of ⁓   Like you said, they tell you to have patients ready for the crowns, but same thing for implants, right? Same thing for Botox, same thing for any of those, but implants especially. I always tell doctors, before you go to the course, I say take inventory, look at how many outgoing referrals you had to oral surgeons. How much revenue did you feed oral surgeons in your area of that thing that you're going for? Because they have had practices in areas of their city   that it was like it didn't make sense financially to implement the thing because they weren't getting it in their doors, right? They were a younger demographic, they were college demographic, and they really just weren't getting a lot of need for the implants or for whatever it was that they were looking at. And so they actually decided, you know what, like that was just, there's so much that we see that we're supposed to do. ⁓   like all on four, all on X. Like there's so many GP dentists that are like, well, I just felt like I heard that that was what was going to change my life forever. And I'm like, yes, in a lot of ways, it's really hard. So don't do things just because it's what you're supposed to do. And it's like the next best up and coming thing. Cause I have seen doctors who have taken inventory and they're like, actually, like I was going to do it because I thought I needed to, but I don't think my patient demographic shows me that I need to. I may actually focus   in on this and they switched their CE focus completely because they saw the need wasn't there and for me that's massive because now you're you are getting an ROI on what you're doing. Now for a lot of dentists they want to learn the thing because they want to know it and that's totally cool. don't I don't I have no ifs, ands, or buts about it but just make sure you know what you're getting into and then like Kristy just said I love that idea of making sure you've got people lined up to get the service.   once you come back. And it's an easy conversation. It's not, I'm going to go get trained on implants. And so when I come back, I'd love for you to be one of the first people I place an implant on. That's uncomfortable, right? But it's just like, hey, I don't have the tools for this right this second. ⁓ You can go to an oral surgeon if you want it sooner, but I am going to be equipped with those tools here in the next six months. I'd be happy to revisit this with you at your next re-care or call you as soon as I get the stuff in.   Same statement, different words. so vulnerability on one hand. If it's family, like shoot, I've had plenty of doctors that's like, hey, I'm testing this on you and you're getting it for free. Or I'm testing it on you and you're gonna pay for the lab fee, like fine.   whatever, but patients maybe be a little bit more tactful with. But Kristy, I think those were some great points. Those are all wonderful things that I've seen you help doctors implement. I've seen Dana, Kristy, or Trish. I've seen all of you guys. Monica, know she's done it too. We've all implemented on some level some of these systems and protocols with practices for things that feel really hard when you're in it. The great part about consultants,   I'm not attached to it, you guys. Kristy's not attached to it. We're attached to you seeing results and we're going to bird's eye view it and see where the missteps are happening, where the gaps are that can be filled to create a different result because Kristy's not emotionally attached to it. So they do really, really well. Kristy, Trish, Monica, Dana, all of them do really well at being able to see those gaps and see how you as a team can fill them and then train you guys on how to fill them. Our job is not to do   it for you because then I'm not teaching you anything, right? Kristy is not, she becomes your regional manager and that's not what we signed up for. But what her job is to do is to show you the path, train you how to do it, watch those benefits, you reap those benefits at the end. So we're excited to help you guys. Kristy, I know you're excited. You love implementing and Kristy loves nothing more than finding the money, finding the money, finding the production and helping you implement structures that really work to make a difference in your practice.   Kristy, thank you for your words of wisdom today. Those were fantastic. think my biggest nugget today is the idea of duh.   have people lined up and ready to go for whatever it is prior to you ever going and getting the course. And I think as I say that, Kristy, there's a lot of protocols and a lot of training that can be done prior to the CE to get your team ready too. Because otherwise the team's just upside down trying to figure it out. But those protocols and things can be put into place before you actually get trained to place and plan. So Kristy, thank you for being here with me today. ⁓   Everyone, I hope you took some solid nuggets from this and you can see how beneficial this can be. Drop us a five star review below. We'd love to help you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We can't wait to hear from you guys. Thanks.  

Title: Travel Like a Billionaire: The 90% Off Secret to a First-Class Lifestyle with Eli Facenda In this conversation, Eli Facenda shares insights on maximizing travel experiences through strategic use of points and credit cards. He discusses his nomadic lifestyle, the entrepreneurial journey that led him to travel hacking, and the importance of understanding the value of different points systems. Eli emphasizes the need for a structured approach to travel, focusing on maximizing points, optimizing travel upgrades, and effectively using credit cards to enhance travel experiences. The discussion also touches on the significance of having a clear strategy for business owners and how to navigate the complexities of travel rewards. In this conversation, Eli Facenda shares his expertise on maximizing travel experiences through strategic use of points and credit cards. He discusses the importance of community in travel planning, innovative solutions for entrepreneurs, and his personal journey in the travel industry. Eli emphasizes the significance of experiential wealth and actionable steps listeners can take to enhance their travel experiences. Links to Watch and Subscribe: https://youtu.be/c7QqSscsajc Bullet Point Highlights: Seth and Eli kick off with casual banter about van life, audio gear, and the nomad lifestyle. Eli shares his background going from broke entrepreneur to travel-hacking expert. He explains how he got obsessed with using points after a free trip to Thailand changed his mindset. Eli now helps entrepreneurs take $20K–$50K luxury trips for 90% off using credit card points. His 3-part system includes maximizing points, optimizing travel perks, and redeeming for bucket-list trips. He gives a real-world example of booking a $20K ANA business class flight to Japan for just $12. Seth dives into a real-life org structure and Eli explains how points flow to the guarantor, not the LLC. Best practice: 2–3 business cards and 2–3 personal cards tailored to your biggest spend categories. Eli introduces his new “DreamTrip Alert System” that delivers full trip itineraries at massive discounts. In the Million Dollar Monday segment, Eli shares how he made, lost, and remade his first million. His next million will come from scalable digital products and a wider reach through content and community. What makes Eli top 1%: He walks the walk, traveling the world and running a business around it. His #1 tip: Pick your dream trip, put it on the calendar, and commit, then let the how figure itself out. Transcript: Eli Facenda (00:00.059) What's up, Seth?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:01.43) Yo, what's going on, brother?   Eli Facenda (00:03.237) How we doing, man? How we doing?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:05.141) Excellent man, what's happening?   Eli Facenda (00:06.893) Not much. you, how's the audio coming through here?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:11.032) Sounds good, sounds good.   Eli Facenda (00:12.547) it clean? Okay, because I'm, it's basically we're in the middle of a Nomad trip here, so I normally have like a, like a shirt mic like you have, but on the road I haven't had, so I haven't had to test this yet, but I figured the DJI's are pretty solid, so I wanna make sure it's actually coming through decent.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:16.962) Okay.   Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:26.732) Nice. Yeah, no, it sounds good. Sounds good, man.   Eli Facenda (00:29.425) Okay, cool, awesome. Awesome Dave, we'll get to connect with you.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:33.802) Yeah, brother definitely, so I don't butcher it. How do you pronounce your last name? Facenda, okay, cool. Cool Awesome, man. Yeah, we've we've crossed paths on social media. I think or maybe our va's have crossed paths who knows   Eli Facenda (00:39.077) for sender. Yep, yep.   Eli Facenda (00:47.663) Yeah, think that was where, yeah, think we were initially connecting, yeah, totally. Instagram, I think, was the place. Yeah. Because you're out in California, right? Nice, I'm in West Palm right now. And I mean, normally based in Austin, but we're in the middle of a like, six to eight month nomad adventure. And so we are, we're on the road here, and we go to Europe in a few weeks for like the next several months.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:53.42) Yeah, nice, nice, where you at right now? Yep, San Diego.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:10.446) Sweet dude.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:17.166) That's awesome dude, awesome, awesome. Love it man, that's a long time. So we did last May we did, man it's been like a year, geez. We did like 30, 33 days in a van trip. So we took our van up through Wyoming into Montana and into Canada. That was a long time for us, but 68 months. Right, yeah.   Eli Facenda (01:18.117) Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, man.   Eli Facenda (01:33.455) Nice.   Eli Facenda (01:37.465) sick. Yeah, well vans are intense too. You know, I haven't done van life but my fiance, she did that before and it was like a lot for her. But yeah, so totally depends on the way you're traveling as well. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:47.266) Yeah.   Nice, nice. Cool, man. Just give you a quick rundown. our audience, my audience is typically, so it used to be passive investors, right? So it used to be the passive income attorney podcast. I think when we might've tried to schedule before and that was for investors. So accredited investors trying to get them to invest in my commercial real estate deals, that sort of thing. But now I've rebranded to raising the bar, which is more geared towards active investors and entrepreneurs and folks like that. So still,   Eli Facenda (02:10.619) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:19.982) Still, I'm sure your clients, wealthy folks that are starting businesses, that have businesses, that are raising capital for real estate or private equity or other types of businesses, that sort of thing. And then we'll do about, we'll do it a little on the shorter side. So we'll do about 30 minute interview, probably at the longest. And then we'll kind of just close that out. And then I do two little smaller sections that I break down into like little five minute episodes. One is a million dollar.   Eli Facenda (02:25.403) Totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:49.622) Monday I put that in the notes and it's basically just like real quick, like how you made your first million dollars, how you made your last million, how you plan on making your next million. then, yeah, and then the last one is the top 1%. Basically just kind of what separates you and makes you the top 1 % in what you do.   Eli Facenda (02:59.675) Cool. Yeah, I love it. It's great.   Eli Facenda (03:08.699) Okay, beautiful. And then as far as, is there any place you want me to point people that is connected to you or do you care if you're asking about that? I don't have any hard call to action kind of pitch thing, but it's more just like.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:19.916) No, man, whatever, it's up to you, man, whatever you want to do, whatever you, whatever call it action you want to use, if want to send it to your website or social media, whatever you want to do,   Eli Facenda (03:26.577) Cause you know what we do have, I can do this. We have a pretty cool playbook that's normally 150 bucks and I'm happy to give it to your listeners for free. So I could give them a code, just say what would be the best code for that?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:37.175) Okay, awesome.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:43.429) Um, just raise would probably be good. use that a lot for like call to action, like DME raise. So you could use a raise.   Eli Facenda (03:46.161) Cool. All right, so yeah, so I'll just say go to the website and just DM or just put in the code RAYS and you'll get it for free. But it's like a whole playbook on how to maximize points for trips. I've act like legitimately I've had someone buy it and within 48 hours he texted me a screenshot. was like, dude, I just saved 20 grand on a trip from your ebook. And I was like, wow, okay, it works. So it's good. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:57.07) Sweet.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:09.366) Nice, Cool. All right, man, well, we're already recording, so I'll just jump right in, and then if I need to add anything to the beginning, I'll do that later. And cool, man, yeah, we'll just jump right in.   Eli Facenda (04:14.129) Sweet. You're welcome.   Eli Facenda (04:20.27) Awesome.   Eli Facenda (04:24.913) Let's do it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:27.444) Eli, what's going on, brother? Welcome to the show.   Eli Facenda (04:30.181) Thank you man, excited to be here and I we're going coast to coast today so this will be good.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:34.382) Absolutely, man. So we chatted beforehand, but I think you're tuning in on a road trip right now. So you're living proof of what you do, right?   Eli Facenda (04:44.065) Yeah, totally. are, well this part's kind of like a road trip. We're in West Palm Beach right now, but this is basically leg number two out of, we'll end up being probably an eight month nomadic adventure with me and my fiance and our little puppy. And so we're in West Palm Beach right now in Florida. We head to Europe in less than a month and we'll be bouncing around different parts of Europe for about four months roughly before we decide where we're gonna go next, which we're not exactly sure.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:58.904) Nice.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (05:12.28) That's awesome, man. Are you using all your hacks and secrets and travel tips that you put out there?   Eli Facenda (05:18.449) Absolutely, yeah, 100%. I mean, we just got back from a crazy trip to Japan. This was really cool. I run an entrepreneur mastermind. So we integrated our own trip around Japan around this mastermind event. So I had 53 people come out for like eight days. We went snowboarding in the mountains in Niseko in the Northern Park. And then we went down to Tokyo for the cherry blossoms. But for myself personally, to get there and back and do a lot of the hotels, we used points. We saved over 50 grand just on that portion of the trip. We then...   know, flew down to West Palm on points and then going over to Europe and a lot of the stays over there will also be leveraging the point strategies that I help clients use and then I talk about on social media and the stuff that we'll dive into today. But yeah, I like to be living proof of it because it's pretty awesome. It's something that's really impacted my life. I love doing it. And when I do it, I get to share it too. So has like a multiple benefit for everybody.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (06:06.648) That's awesome, man. I'm excited, dude. I'm excited to dig in here, because it's just for my own personal benefit and education, because I'm super stoked about this stuff, and I travel a lot with my fiance, or my fiance, my wife, and it's something I'm personally interested in as well. We've had past conversations too, so it's great to have you on, man. So just to start off, man, if somebody, you meet somebody in the street, they ask you what you do, how do you explain that?   in a sentence, right? Like without going into some crazy like tangent about all the awesome things that you do. Like what, how do you answer that question?   Eli Facenda (06:36.453) Yeah.   Eli Facenda (06:41.329) Sure, sure, Yeah, it really does depend on the situation, but I oftentimes will ask a couple questions because it makes it easier for people to understand. So usually it's like, do you have any big dream bucket list trip you've ever wanted to take? And they'll be like, oh yeah, Greece. I'm like, well, what we do is we help you get to Greece in business or first class, stay in five star hotels, have the trip of your dreams at about 90 % off. So that's kind of the tagline is take the trip of your dreams for about 90 % off.   I'll get into the whole point side of things, but some people don't know what points are, or some are really well studied in that world. So I just leave with the trip because that's usually what people want. They want to have the experience where it's you and your wife flying first class, sipping champagne on the way to Paris to go see the Eiffel Tower and the points and the credit cards. That's really the mechanism. That's how we make the experience happen. But at end of the day, what we want is the amazing memories, the beautiful experience, all that stuff. So I leave with the trip when I talk about it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:37.848) That's awesome, man. Yeah, I mean, you're literally selling the dream, right? Like in marketing, you sell the dream or hit on a pain point. Like you are like the quintessential selling the dream. Like that's what everybody thinks about. So.   Eli Facenda (07:42.969) Yeah, exactly.   Yeah, Right. Well, it's funny because, you know, in marketing, they'll say like, sell the destination, not the vehicle, right? They'll be like, sell the outcome, not how you get there. And so we do that in our marketing. But then when you think about it, when people are taking a trip, what we are helping them do is make the vehicle to get to the destination part of the destination. Because really, when you travel well, and you do it in style, the flight becomes a part of the trip that you're excited for.   I can't wait to see the the drinks and the champagne and the food they're gonna have and how awesome the seat is and the movie selection, how big's the screen. At least for people that love to travel, it becomes a fascination of the trip, not just getting there. So that's a big difference maker when people start to go on these flights, and this is what a lot of our clients will say, and for me, it goes from flying economy to like, I'm counting down the hours to get off this freaking plane.   to like, we do another lap around the city? Cause like, I'd love to just hang out here longer, right? And like the flight attendants treat you really well. So yeah, it's a whole experience.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:49.314) That's awesome, man. Yeah, that's great. Was there a trip that you went on personally where you just kind of thought, man, I can turn this into a business, right? Like you're just enjoying it so much that you just were like, like the light bulb went off or how did this business spawn?   Eli Facenda (09:04.515) Yeah, there wasn't one trip that I made the connection between like, trip is awesome, let me start a business. But there was one trip that gave me the light bulb of, my God, I am obsessed with this, I need to learn everything I can. There was zero intention or thought about business that when it first started. And that'll take you back about 10 years. So was around 22 years old and I'm just coming out of college. And basically I'm in my mom's basement and I remember this really...   like heavy feeling because I went to a good university near New York City and all my friends went to Wall Street and they were making like six figures plus right out of school. And I had this like entrepreneurial bug. I was like, that's not for me. I don't want to sit in an office. I don't care if I can make a lot of money. I want to like play life on my terms, even if it means I'm making less. So at this point I have friends that are making tons of money, know, lots of disposable income and I'm making like 20 grand a year. I'm working four side jobs. I was trying to build a company. I remember getting this text.   And my stomach just dropped, because I was like, shit, I'm going to miss out on this incredible experience. was friends inviting me to go to Thailand. And I was like, if I don't figure out a better strategy of either how to make more money or figure something out, I'm not going be able to go on this trip. And I was like, damn, this is going to be just a life of missing out on experiences. Is that what it means to follow my dreams with entrepreneurship? It's like, I have to forego everything that my other friends are doing. And so was like, let me think about this differently. And I had a mentor that told me, you don't need more money, you need a better strategy. And he was talking about growing a business.   But for me, I was like, oh wait, there's this credit card point thing. What if I could figure that out? So I ended up piecing it together. I got a trip to Thailand for free. I had this amazing experience with some of my best friends. It's like still, you know, 13 friends in Thailand at age like 22, 23. Memories you don't get back. So was really grateful to have that. And then I came back from that trip and I got another flight a few, probably a year later to Europe in business class where it was a $6,000 ticket that I paid $6 for. Now after that one,   I came off that flight and I was like, I will read every blog, I will watch every YouTube video, I will learn everything about this because it meant I could travel the world and have this incredible lifestyle without having to go take a corporate job. So was like, I get to have my entrepreneurial dream and the travel I want without any trade-offs and I was like, this is amazing. So that was my first time I got hooked. It took me years of researching and reading blogs and websites and doing stuff for myself before I even had the thought of helping anyone else. I just became obsessed with it on my own.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:27.086) I love that you recognize you had the entrepreneurial bug early on, right? Before you got drugged down into the corporate ladder and then you got the golden handcuffs, we like to call it, and that sort of thing where it gets much, much harder to escape that gravity. I know for myself, it took a really long time. ended up going to, I went to med school, then I got my MBA, and then I went to law school, and then I worked in a big law firm, and it just took me all this time to figure out like, I don't want this.   Eli Facenda (11:38.405) Yeah.   Eli Facenda (11:49.201) Mm.   Eli Facenda (11:56.763) Right, well the social pressure alone of like everyone year round is going one way, it takes a lot of guts for you to zig when everyone else is zagging, like it's not easy to do. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:57.015) And I think it's.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:06.648) For sure, for sure. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough, right? And especially when you see your friends making six figures right out of college, you're like, man, I could do that right now if I wanted to do it, but I don't want that. So it takes guts to be able to go out there and do your own thing.   Eli Facenda (12:21.873) Totally. And I think everyone has their own version of that still. There's even vert flavors of that today that are still existing for me where it's like, everyone's kinda going this way, but when I really get quiet and listen to myself, I'm like, yeah, you could do that, but you actually, what your soul or your heart really wants is to go over here. And so I've always just tried to listen to that more because I think about one of my North stars is, at the end of my life, I'm 80, 90 years old, I do the rocking chair test and look back, it's like,   What regret would I rather not have when I'm 90? I'd always rather be like I bet on myself than like I took the sure, you know, the well-paid path, which is the old cliche, but I think it's really true.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (13:01.004) Totally, I love that North Star, man. Have you ever asked ChatGBT to give you advice as your 80 or 90 year old self on your deathbed? It's great. Yeah. I love it, man. I love it. Yeah, it's great. It you great insight. You start reading, you're like, this is good.   Eli Facenda (13:07.409) Yeah, yeah, I actually created a custom GPT and it's my future me that coaches current me. yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.   Right. Exactly. Yeah, totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (13:21.326) Awesome man, well let's get back kind of on the business of travel, right? So somebody comes to you, they do that introduction that we talked about, you get in a deeper conversation, they're super interested in it, they wanna learn more about these travel hacks and strategies, like where do they start? Where do you point them?   Eli Facenda (13:42.447) Yeah, so in terms of the process, I like to chunk it into three main buckets.   And it's important to have context around this game because if you don't, it just starts to feel like there's so many moving pieces and who has time for that and it's too confusing and then it becomes overwhelming and overwhelm just basically leads to an action. And then that is the person who's like, well, I just don't wanna do that, I'll just take a cash back card or I'll just stick to my Delta card, right? And so when you have the right context, you can start to understand the highest leverage moves to make and then you know really how to get the result you want with the least amount of effort. So that's what we focus on and specifically like I've worked with   probably over a thousand business owners now. And with business owners, investors and entrepreneurs, it's a different, the points game takes on a different context, right? Because usually the constraint we have to solve for is time and complexity. And if you work a nine to five, you know, after five o'clock, you've got hours for your night. But entrepreneurs, it's like every hour is kind of an asset that you can use. So it's a little bit different. So the three buckets are, the first one is to maximize the points that you earn. So this happens from getting the right cards and the right expenses.   because all of these different points are like currency, so you wanna earn the right type of points and then you wanna maximize the amount of them by getting the right cards and the right expenses. So that's the first piece and that's really, really key, because nothing else happens if you don't get that right. The second bucket is gonna be to upgrade and optimize your travel. So you've got domestic trips for a conference, are you getting TSA pre-check and clear, are you getting the best lounges, are you getting first class upgrades and free bags and hotel suite upgrades and free breakfast at the hotels and free wifi. Really it's just like,   There's all these opportunities available for people that are traveling domestically for work, for family events, you know, your kind of ordinary traveling might have. And what we want to do is we just want to enhance the quality of all of that and reduce all the headaches and annoyances by maximizing benefits on cards and status perks and all the kind of like little tactics that you can play. So that's the second thing that just makes your travel more comfortable. And then the third bucket, which is really the most important in terms of impact in your life and the most meaningful piece is to take your dream bucket list trips for 70 to 90 % off.   Eli Facenda (15:45.775) And so that's where you're gonna take the points you've accumulated. You're gonna use some strategies that I can break down here around transferring these points from the banks to the airlines and hotels, and you're gonna get these dream trips for literally a fraction of what they should cost if you're paying cash, or compared to if you were using your points through a site like Amex Travel or Capital & Travel or Chase Travel. Okay, so that's a mouthful, but those are the three. So maximize your points, get the best possible upgrades, and then take your dream trips for 90 % off.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:13.934) Yeah, dive into one of those little those connecting strategies there that you mentioned.   Eli Facenda (16:19.183) Yeah. Yeah. So I'll talk first about the cards. That's the order. This is the first mistake that most business owners and individuals are making is they're just getting random cards. They're like, well, I live in Dallas. Let me get the American card or live in Atlanta. So I'll get the Delta card or, whatever it may be. Or live in San Diego and I fly domestic. So I'll just get the Southwest card. Well, they don't realize is that again, these points, these points like currencies. And so if I told you, Hey, do you want 150 Mexican pesos or 150 us dollars for your couch that you're selling on Facebook marketplace?   you're obviously gonna take the US dollars, right? Because the currency is much higher. But with points, people don't realize that. So they might be racking up Hilton points or Delta miles or other points and miles that just aren't as valuable as other ones out there. And then they burn through them quick or they don't go as far. And they end up just basically sitting there being like, I feel like I should be getting more. This is the common thing I hear. I feel like this should be taking me further, but like it's not doing much. And so what we wanna focus on is bank points that are transferable. So certain banks,   have this ability to convert the points to the airline hotel loyalty programs. And what happens is the banks have a different way of pricing than the airlines do. And certain airlines and certain hotels have really good what we call sweet spots or opportunities for you to get the best possible deals. Okay, so when you earn these effective points, which the top ones I recommend are generally Amex, Chase, and Capital One, and there's a new program built actually is out where you can put your rent on a card with no fees and earn points, it's really cool. But when you get those right,   And then you look through your expenses and you say, what do I spend the most on? Is it groceries and dining and the personal side? Cool. There's a card like the Amex Gold that is specifically really good for those types of expenses. Then you look at your business. What do I spend a lot on? Is it ads and software and taking clients out for dinners? Great. The Amex Business Gold earns four points per dollar on those categories, but maybe it's you're spending a lot on flights for company travel, or maybe you have inventory you're buying, or you're paying a lot of contractors, or you have a lot of payroll. You want to assess where you're spending the most money.   and make sure you have the optimal card lined up for that type of expense. So I'll pause there, but that's kind of the first bucket. The other one is on using the points effectively, which I can talk about too, is pretty powerful. But that first one is really the linchpin. Because if you have a bunch of Delta miles and you want to go to Europe, I'll give an example actually one more before I kind of pause. There was an example recently I saw of a client and they wanted to go to Europe and we're looking at different options. This was from JFK to Amsterdam. If you have Delta miles,   Eli Facenda (18:43.547) The ticket for Delta One, this big awesome Delta Suite, was 320,000 miles. That's what Delta was charging to go from JFK to Amsterdam. It's really expensive amount of miles. But the same exact flight, like same flight number, same aircraft, everything, if you booked it through Virgin Atlantic, it was 50,000 miles. One seventh of the amount almost. It's really, really big difference. And so here's the kicker, right? If you have a Delta card, you only earn Delta miles, so you have to pay the 320,000.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (18:46.765) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:02.124) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (19:12.497) but if you had an Amex card that earned Amex points, so like the Amex gold or business gold, you could actually convert those points into Virgin to book the Delta flight because Virgin and Delta are partners, and you'd pay 50,000 points instead of 320,000. So this is the part where like, for people that kind of get this, they're like, whoa, and the other people are like, what did you just say? So I get it can be, it can be tricky for some people that are just getting to grasp it, but I want to make sure to lay out the whole game so people can understand really what's possible for them.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:34.764) Yeah   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:42.329) Totally, totally. Yeah, it's just, mean, I'm sure people out there listening, it's both, right? Some people know these things exist, but they don't know the extent of it. And you're opening up their minds regardless, right? Like all the possibilities. I think most people are just like, sure, I need to find a great car that has a welcome offer of some sort. That's usually what people look at. And then they just try to pick, perhaps they take it a step further and they're looking to see like what they spend money on the most and they'll...   Eli Facenda (19:54.139) Tour then.   Eli Facenda (20:04.443) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (20:11.128) calibrate that card to that. But you're taking it step further because you know, it's kind of just opening yourself up to knowing all the possibilities, right? All these different connections, where to spend the points, where you can earn the points, those sorts of things. How thick is your wallet, man? Do you have, is your wallet like this and it's got 25 cards in it or what?   Eli Facenda (20:19.419) Totally.   Right. Yeah.   Eli Facenda (20:28.123) Haha   Yeah. Yeah.   Well, caveat this first by saying when we work with clients and we might do recommendations for people, I always recommend if you have a business, two to three personal cards and two to three business cards. That is a simple way to set this up. That's only four to six cards across both things. That's enough where you're really gonna get some serious ROI, but it's not so much that's really complicated. Some people are kind of curmudgeoned about it, like I only want one card. And I'm like, that's fine. There's no right or wrong in this. It's really preferential, but you should just know if you do that, you're gonna be leaving for most business owners that spend at least a few thousand a month.   that's gonna cost you tens of thousands of dollars of free trips a year. So I'm like, is your simplicity of having one card worth that much? If it is, great, but maybe having a second or third card doesn't add that much complexity. But if you get an extra $30,000 a year trip out of it, probably worth it, right? So that's the first thing. But to answer your actual question, so I have an entire thing called the Credit Man purse. It's like this portfolio binder, and it's just stacked with cards. I mean, I have over 40 credit cards, but I've been doing this for a long time, right? And there's like, here's the thing also with credit.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:28.28) Hahaha   Eli Facenda (21:34.041) A big question, a lot of investors, specifically people that are doing real estate or business owners, really want to their credit clean and we're huge advocates of actually not just keeping your credit score the same but improving it over time. And when you get business cards, they don't show up on your personal credit report. Okay, the vast majority. The inquiry will, but the actual card won't. And some banks, you can actually get multiple cards with no additional inquiries. So like when we do a custom card plan for someone or when we're just recommending it, we're always saying like, make sure to look at which banks you already have relationships with.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:48.142) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (22:02.373) which ones you can get a soft pull from, the order matters of these card applications. But at end of the day, you just want a couple of specific cards that are really gonna be custom built for you, and you don't have to go crazy with it. If you get excited and you're like passionate about it, you can get 10, 15, 20 cards over the course of several years, and if you do it right underneath your businesses, it's not gonna drop your personal credit score. Your personal credit score will actually go up over time.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:26.314) Mm-hmm. That's a good hack, man. I'll get I'm put you on a spot a little bit. I'm gonna explain like what what I see a lot of the people that are probably listen to this show have in place structured wise like organizational structure and it's kind of similar to mine. Mine's probably a lot more complicated, but just to keep it simple, you know, there might be a parent company, right? Like this overhead parent company that owns everything. So let's let's call it parent company, right? And then below the parent company, the parent company owns, let's say a management company.   This management company probably manages funds, manages properties, manages equity for investors, that sort of thing. And then they also might have these other businesses, right? Like it just depends on the person. Like for instance, I own gyms and some other, my law firm, things like that. So they might have these own individual operating companies that owns a gym or owns another business or does these other things. you know.   Eli Facenda (22:55.889) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:20.066) Based on that structure, so you've got a parent company, you've got a, let's call it an equity management or fund management or property management company, and then you've got kind of this other operating business. How would you structure, what credit cards I guess would you kind of recommend? Not necessarily specific ones, but like, do they need one for all three or, yeah, how would you think about that?   Eli Facenda (23:27.301) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (23:36.593) Yeah, yeah, but how would you think about that? Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a super common question. Like this is exactly the kind of clientele that we work with all the time where they're like, are you sure this is gonna work for me? I have four rental properties, two companies, one holding company. I have an investment thing. I have this thing over here. It's like, yeah, it all works. So simple is the key. So it's always a spectrum too. Like some people are, again, really minimalist with like what they want. we always, like when we're doing this for a client, we custom build it. But.   The real recommendation there is we wanna, again, assess which of these companies are actually generating the highest amount of spend. And those are the ones we wanna start with first in terms of cards and really optimizing. Now, if you have a bunch of different companies and they all have a bunch of spend, the first key thing to know is that the points will go to the business owner, the person who personally guaranteed the card, not to the business. So there's no business points account. It's underneath your name, even if it's underneath the LLC.   So the points go to you. So if you have like six different companies and you have like three Chase cards and three Amex cards, all of those three Chase cards and all of those three Amex cards are gonna basically funnel up to your account, okay? So that keeps it simple in terms of how you can think about accruing these points. They're not gonna be scattered everywhere where you can't use them. So that's good to know. Same with the airlines, right? doesn't matter if it's an airline or a bank card. So that's the first thing. For these management companies, usually lot of them don't have much spend.   So what we'll tend to do is just get one card that is like a catch-all card. And so this would be a card that we want to have earn around 1.5 to two points per dollar spent. Because what we've done is we've taken the floor of what you're gonna earn on your everyday spend and we just increase it by 50 to 100%. Okay, so like let's say a parent company is used for some client meetings and some basic legal and admin stuff and it's like 1,500 bucks a month just to do upkeep and normal stuff like that.   and it's not a crazy amount of different categories to spend. You're not running ads, you don't have that much software, there's not really a lot travel happening with it. But if that's the case, then what we wanna do is get a card, maybe like the Chase Inc. Unlimited, which earns 1.5x on everything, and we'll say, look, we're gonna keep this simple. That holding company doesn't have a lot of points earning power, so let's make sure we get a card on it just to earn, but we don't wanna like go crazy and get a bunch of cards and try to maximize every dollar. But this company that owns four different gyms and spends...   Eli Facenda (25:52.369) 50K a month on equipment and advertising and payroll and all this stuff, that's the company where we wanna look to get maybe two or three cards that are specifically aligned with that business to spend because that is where you as an entrepreneur, as an owner, are gonna be generating the most return. It's gonna be from that one entity. So I hope that breaks it down in a way that makes sense, but this is also where, again, having your cards across two to three main banks will keep it relatively simple because even if you have four different entities, if it's under one Amex login, that makes it nice and easy too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (26:22.53) Totally, totally. Awesome, man. I knew you could handle that. Easy, easy peasy. Cool, man. Let's go to number two, right? Using the points effectively. You kind of touched on a little bit of that strategy, but let's jump into that.   Eli Facenda (26:26.682) Easy basic.   Eli Facenda (26:32.709) Yeah, yeah, so the second thing was optimizing the upgrades and all that. I'll cover that one really quick. If you're going through the airport and you don't have TSA PreCheck and clear and lounge access, you're missing out on some really easy perks that will just make your life way more enjoyable. So that's the first thing. There's a lot you can do with hotel upgrades and status. So like when I travel and go to Miami tonight for a conference, I have status at Hyatt. I'm staying at Hyatt for two of the nights down here.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (26:39.628) Okay.   Eli Facenda (27:02.225) I probably would get upgraded to a suite that's worth like thousand to 1500 bucks a night because I know how to use the suite and I certificate, it's my globalist status, I know how to message the hotel the right way. So there's some strategies there where if you do that, whenever you're traveling, you just get a much better experience. You get early check-in, late check-out, the free suite upgrade, much more spacious room. A lot of times they have lounges at the property like when we were in Tokyo, a bunch of us stayed at the Grand Hyatt there. They had a beautiful lounge overlooking the city. They had breakfast every morning.   They had drinks all day. They had a great lounge area. We actually had a mastermind session in there and they like a 15 person breakout room for us to go to. It cost us $0 to use it. They had afternoon drinks and stuff like that. So these are just the things that make your travel much better. So small tweaks that over time just again, make it a much more enjoyable experience. But that bucket on how you use your points, this is one of the most critical pieces. And I've already kind of alluded to it with that Delta One example, but   I'll share another one. So on the way to Japan, right, we flew ANA business class. This is all Nippon. It's one of the premier airlines in the world for international business class travel. They actually have a seat called The Room because it's so spacious and big, your own big sliding door. They have like an omakase menu. You've got ramen, champagne. It's like really, really good. Amazing sake and green tea and all this good stuff.   It was like an incredible way to fly and you know, it's an 11 hour flight and I didn't sleep a wink because I was just eating the whole time. But here's the deal, right? So that flight for my fiance and I, it would have been $20,000 for the two of us. It's 10,000 a piece. Okay, San Francisco to Tokyo. We're going in peak season, mind you. So I have three options to book that flight. I pay cash for it, which you know, I do decent in business, but I'm not dropping 20 grand on flights.   just to get to Japan, like that's out, that's way out of my bucket of what I would ever want to do. The second option, I go to the bank site. Okay, so again, if you have AMEX points, a lot of people have AMEX cards, like the platinum or the gold card, and this is a good start, but when you go to the bank site, each point is worth one penny. Okay, this is the baseline value of a point. So what happens is if you go to AMEX travel, they'll say, okay, this flight would cost, let's call it 20 grand. So 20 grand times one cent for each point equals 2 million points.   Eli Facenda (29:20.977) So my second option would have been to go to Amex's site and pay two million points, which I don't even have. Okay, so I'm like, that wouldn't have even worked, but that's what most people are doing at use points. They're going directly to the bank site and they're booking using Amex travel and they're getting absolutely screwed. Okay. There's kind of, and then there's a third option, which is to go through the airline site. So there's like three A and three B. Three A would be like, again, you only have Delta miles and you're kind of screwed going just to Delta. I don't recommend that. But the last option is what we did.   which is where we had Amex points and Chase points, and I looked at my different options and I said, okay, what are the best partner airlines I can book through to get to Japan? Well, it turns out, ANA is a part of the Star Alliance, okay? United is also part of that alliance. Chase and United have a partnership where I could convert my Chase points into United miles. When I looked that up, I ended up finding the deal and there's ways you have to kind of search this and track it, but that same flight that would have cost me two million points,   through Amex or Chase travel directly cost me 220,000 points to transfer from Chase to United. And I paid $12 out of Okay, so $20,000 flight, I paid 12 bucks. But how did I do it? I had the right points first. I had enough of them because I had the right cards and the right expenses. I knew how to search for this flight. And then I was able to transfer these points from Chase into the airline. So the hardest part of this entire process   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:30.402) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (30:49.413) is figuring out the points transfers and which partners are the right ones for certain airlines. That gets very nuanced and complicated. It's kind of like, you know, if you were talking to a CPA and someone's trying to explain how like the Augusta rule works, whatever, and like the CPA pulls up like the tax code and is like unveiling this long list of tax jargon. The average person is just like, what, just like tell me how to do it, right? That's kind of the same thing here. There's a lot of different like angles and transfer partners and bonuses and.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:12.43) Right.   Eli Facenda (31:17.689) alliances and partnerships and it gets kind of complicated but that's how it works.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:22.434) Totally, totally. So let's talk about that. how do you help people keep track of that or learn that or execute, I guess, on these strategies?   Eli Facenda (31:32.241) Sure, yeah, so for us, our company really has two main levels to it. So we have a community-based level where it's like you're just getting the fast track, you're getting help from experts. So I'm really good at this, but I'm more of an entrepreneur than a points nerd. So as I built this, initially I was the one on the phone with all the clients, walking everyone through it, and then I built a team. So I found basically some of the other points nerds in the world that I was mind blown by. I knew them from social media and just seeing their stuff, and I was like, that person has their stuff. So I brought them onto the team.   And so our clients will interact with both me and them inside of our community, but it's not just points. We're also providing really cool travel experiences. So for example, I posted this, but I'm going kiteboarding in Egypt in June on this epic like entrepreneur kiteboard trip where it's 40 entrepreneurs going to learn how to kiteboard together and masterminding on one. And so I'm attending, I sent it out to our clients and I said, Hey, if you want to come on this, our team will help you plan the flights out there on your point so you can get business class on the way out.   So I like to, because ultimately I wanna help people, my mission is to help people create more experiential wealth in their life. There's financial wealth, and a lot of people accumulate dollars, but they're not turning it into experiences. So I'm like, let's create more experiential wealth, and the points are the way to justify it. So we have that community level where you get access to our team, there's calls you can jump on, ways we help you plan trips, and then we have the done for you services, where we basically just handle it for you. That's more like, think of like a travel agency on points for entrepreneurs.   That's more of what that is. And in there we'll do the custom card planning and map out what cards you need based off of what your specific spends are and stuff like that. So we do some pretty deep intake. And we kind of are almost like a travel agent. It's a little bit different in some ways, but that's basically the two levels in how we help people.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:12.29) Great, man. I love how you build in the experience, right? Like that's part of it. Like that's what you're teaching anyway. So it's like, it's not like, hey, join this, join this group and then we'll talk about all these things. You're actually doing it. You're actually inviting them to execute on what you're teaching so that they can see it in motion and then they can continue to do it and experience life at a different level.   Eli Facenda (33:32.497) Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, like, I really love it too. like, I'm like, everyone that works with us is really, usually a pretty cool person. Like, if you're an entrepreneur and you have the guts to build your own business, and then you wanna travel the world, like by nature of that, you're already probably a pretty cool person. Like the majority of people that are doing that, I think well-traveled people are some of the most interesting people. If you want the best stories in life, like, someone who's traveled the world is gonna have some stories for you. And so when you combine those two, it's like, these are people I wanna hang out with anyways. So like, I'm going on a trip to Egypt. I'm like, come with, like.   Whoever in the community wants to come, let's have a party, let's go do it. So it's great thing.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:04.994) That's great. Awesome, man. How are you raising the bar in your life and your business right now? Like what are you doing to build your business further, building off of some of the things that you're offering right now? Where are you taking it to the next level?   Eli Facenda (34:18.833) Yeah, so we have a new project we're rolling out inside of our community, which I'm really excited about, which is even just in our lower tier membership, and it's called our DreamTrip Alert System. So what this is, is when people come in, this has never been done before in the world of points and miles or travel at all. So we're the first to do this, which I'm really excited about. So let's say you were to sign up. You're gonna come in and give us your DreamTrip destinations, the seasons or windows that you could go, the points you have, your home airport, all this stuff.   and our team is going through and we're not just finding you like a flight, because there are different alerts out there that'll be like, hey, we found a flight. And it's like, cool, one way from LA to London, but like, what am I gonna do when I'm there? Where am gonna stay? How am getting back? Right, it's like part of the puzzle, but it leaves a lot on you to figure out. And for our clients, most business owners and entrepreneurs, investors, they're too busy to piece all that together. So they're like, well, cool, that doesn't really help me. So we decided to do, we said, what if we...   just basically sent people like a mystery subscription box of their dream trips. And so when you come in and you fill that out, we gather it. And then a couple times a month, we're gonna send out alerts where it's like a 30, 40 or $50,000 type trip, somewhere incredible in the world. We're talking Greek islands, Amalfi Coast, Japan, New Zealand, African safaris, Maldives, Bora Bora, places like that, business and first class flights, five star hotels, four pennies on the dollar. So these are like, we get $40,000 trips where people will end up paying a thousand bucks, 1500 bucks, two grand out of pocket.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:25.389) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (35:44.337) And so we're gonna send the entire trip to you. So it's like the flights, the hotels, the entire step-by-step booking, the recommendations on the ground, the entire experience. And so we're sending those out so people come in, they tell us when, where, like the things they wanna do, and then they're just gonna get these alerts where it's like every month they're gonna be like, you you're sitting there with your wife, hey babe, you wanna go to Bora Bora in like June? It's gonna cost us like 800 bucks and it would be a $30,000 trip. It's like that's what I want. That's what I wanna create. So that's us raising the bar in the industry and in our business.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:06.35) you   Eli Facenda (36:13.615) I'm very excited, it's brand new for us, so I'm just pumped to see that continue to roll out, because it's, for me the mission is to help people live with experiential wealth in the form of travel. And so, usually there's some barriers that get in the way. There's time, there's planning, and then there's cost. And what we're trying to do is eliminate as many of those barriers as we can to make it just easier to say yes to the trip.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:34.252) Yeah, man, sign me up, dude. Sign me up. I feel like you've got to get both significant others on your list, right? So they both see it and whoever's like the person is like, we've got to do this, you hit both of them and then they convince the other one to do it.   Eli Facenda (36:36.625) All right.   Eli Facenda (36:49.477) Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. There's usually one. There's usually like sometimes it's the husband's on the call and he's like, dude, I don't know where we ever travel. Like I'm gonna pay for this, my wife's gonna do everything or it's the opposite where the guy's like, you know, she just shows up and I tell her where we're going. And so like that's my relationship. I'll be like, you know, it's my industry, my passion. I'm like, we're going here and then here. And she's like, tell me where to be. And she just has no idea where we are and she just loves it. And I'm like, I like planning. So, you know, but it's different for everybody.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:11.736) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:17.144) For sure, for sure, man. All right, brother, this has been incredible. Tell our audience where they can find out more about you, where they can get involved with all the things, all the incredible things that they've heard on this show. Throw it out there,   Eli Facenda (37:28.859) Totally. Yeah, a couple of main places. So the first thing I'll share is that we have what I call the CEO Points Playbook. This is something I custom built. Took me a long time, and this was not a Chad TBT prompt. Like, I really built this on my own. And it is like a 30 to 40 page playbook that any business owner or entrepreneur can use to really maximize their travel experiences, get better bucket list trips, figure out the right cards for them. And it's normally 150 bucks, but if you go to freedomtravelsystems.com   forward slash playbook and you put in the code RAYS, you're gonna get it for free. Okay, so anyone listening, it is free for you. And so that's gonna be freedomtravelsystems.com forward slash playbook and then use the code RAYS, maybe we can put it in the show notes. And so that'll be the first thing. Second place is if you're like just want done for you services, just take off that forward slash and go to freedomtravelsystems.com. can talk to myself and one of the team members. And the last place, I hang out on Instagram and post a lot there, that's where we connected.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:14.049) Absolutely.   Eli Facenda (38:27.595) And that's where I'm sharing the most like behind the scenes and as I'm booking this stuff, as I'm planning it, as I'm showing like what our clients are doing, you get to see more of the visuals and the fun and come along for the ride. And so I love engaging on Instagram as well.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:40.27) Great. Thanks Eli. I really appreciate you coming on the show,   Eli Facenda (38:43.973) Thanks Seth, appreciate you having me on.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:45.806) All right, brother, talk soon.   All right, sweet dude. Nice. Yeah, right around 30 minutes. Let's see. Yeah, we'll just jump into these last few questions here.   Eli Facenda (38:51.748) Awesome.   Eli Facenda (38:55.205) Perfect.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:03.862) Welcome to Million Dollar Monday with Eli Fisenda. Let's just jump right in. Hey brother. Yeah, how did you make your first million?   Eli Facenda (39:09.243) Let's do it.   Eli Facenda (39:13.499) So I actually made my first million in a tour company. Now I made the first million, I didn't get to keep the first million, but what we were doing, we were running sports trips all over the world. This is actually part of how I fell in love with the travel industry and the work that I now do with points. And ultimately what we were doing, we were creating these international tour packages for youth sports teams and families to go on these international tours. think of like a 14 year old baseball team in your, you're in San Diego. We'd like do a selection of kids.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:19.694) Sure.   Eli Facenda (39:41.329) from that area and the families would come and they would go to Japan or Italy or wherever and travel for 10 days, experience the culture, have an educational tour and also play the local teams. So we did that in a variety of sports, ice hockey and baseball and lacrosse and all these different sports. And we were growing a lot and then that was ramping right until COVID and that just decimated the entire business. we took us about two years to get to a million and then we started to double almost every year for a few years and that was like.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:02.432) Mm.   Eli Facenda (40:09.399) Really, really tough break at COVID, but that was the first million.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:11.63) COVID man. Nobody saw that coming. mean.   Eli Facenda (40:13.881) No, definitely, you know, group, large, large group sports international travel was like the worst potential. Like you can't go overseas and you definitely can't do it with 60 people. So was, was a brutal industry to be in.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:25.506) Right? Yeah, there were certain sectors that just, I mean, there was nothing you could do. We opened up our first gym actually two weeks before COVID hit in 2020. we had our, us like two years to open and then our grand opening. And then we had a bunch of free clients in those first two weeks. And then they ended up being free clients for about a year because we couldn't charge them. Cause we couldn't get them back in the gym. We're doing online workouts and all that kind of stuff is insane.   Eli Facenda (40:36.817) Ugh.   Eli Facenda (40:47.696) Wow.   Eli Facenda (40:53.337) And that's like where the true entrepreneurial muscles are definitely strengthened in times like that though. mean, like the people that bounce back and figure it out, like you just have a new sense of confidence of like, you know, I can handle anything.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:54.22) But hey, we adapt,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:06.764) Yeah, man. I mean, you pivot, right? Like I actually ended up launching my first podcast during during COVID because I was stuck inside and it was like, all right, let's let's do this. Let's get on Zoom and interview people and all that kind of stuff, man. So that leads us right to the next question. And how do you make your last million? How do you make that transition?   Eli Facenda (41:12.859) Cool.   Nice. Cool. I'll it.   Eli Facenda (41:24.143) Yeah, so the last million that I made was in the current business that I have. so essentially what we've been doing there for about four years now is helping entrepreneurs maximize their travel on credit card points. So helping them get their dream bucket list trips, these 30, 40, $50,000 trips all over the world for about 90 % off by leveraging credit card points. And we've traditionally had some pretty high ticket services. I mean, not crazy expensive, but like, you five, 10, 15 K and that range has been the main main service. And so,   We cracked our first million about two years in, so that was 2020, 2024 actually was the first year we made a million there.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:00.526) Awesome man, awesome. How about your next million? Where are you scaling to?   Eli Facenda (42:04.305) Yeah, so the next million I wanna make is the same business. love what I do, I really enjoy it. And what I wanna do is do it in a more community oriented and lower ticket way. So I wanna have bigger reach, more digital products, more of the community, more affiliate services and stuff like that. And I'm really excited about kind of cracking the code on that, because we've done it decently with the higher ticket stuff, more agency level, service level stuff, which is great. And we're still cranking on that, we're gonna keep growing it. But I really wanna see what we can do with...   So the lower ticket stuff, creating awesome stuff on YouTube that leads to different channels and distributions there. So that's the next million and same business, just different type of money.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:41.57) I love it man, yeah, that's kind of opposite of how some people approach it, right? You usually start with a lower ticket and then you have to build up that base before anybody will give you, you know, higher, pay for that higher ticket product, but you're kind of working backwards because you want to help more people.   Eli Facenda (42:56.677) Totally, exactly, yeah, and there's a limit. mean, what we do in the high ticket is incredible, but it really is a specialized skill. Like you think about like a bookkeeper or an accounting firm or something, like there's like a million bookkeepers. There's like 50 people that know points and travel to the level that I need them to know it to really serve clients with the highest level. So there's a real limit on the ability to scale that. And so it's also just like, we wanna be able to do really quality work for less people, but then serve more people with the other stuff too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (43:25.368) Totally, totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (43:29.518) Cool, let's jump into the next one dude and we'll wrap up. Eli, you're clearly in the top 1 % of what you do. I don't even know if there's that many people out there that do what you do at all, period. So clearly in the top 0.0001%, what is it about you that separates you from the rest of the field?   Eli Facenda (43:49.701) I think it's our ability to actually live what we preach. This is something where, you know, there are other fantastic people that talk about credit card points, but very few of them are actually business owners, like that's who we serve, and very few of them are actually traveling in the way that they're trying to help people travel. So we've done both. I've built multiple businesses, so I understand the psychology and the relatability of how you wanna think about travel and points and the various stresses in your life, the limitations on time and complexity. And I also,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:06.062) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (44:20.636) What just happened?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:22.998) I'm not sure. We can splice it together, but let's see. Lost the video.   Eli Facenda (44:26.748) Let me see here. Did my camera die or something?   Bizarre. second.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:36.076) Yeah, weird. Never had that happen.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:42.038) Not a big deal, we can splice it together, but let's see if we can get your camera working again.   Eli Facenda (44:46.992) Don't see my camera get help. Is the audio coming through okay? Did it switch over there to my MacBook from the other one? Or it sounds the same.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:51.564) Yeah, I can hear the audio.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:57.806) I don't know. All I see is like a car. It's like I don't know. It's a card with a symbol on it I wonder what that is that riverside or is that your symbol? I can't be your symbol   Eli Facenda (45:06.556) weird. Get help.   Eli Facenda (45:12.006) Let me see.   trying to check this out.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:19.458) We can also just finish it with audio.   Eli Facenda (45:23.556) Is it, Dude, I don't know what's going on. Sorry about that. I've never seen...   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:28.654) no worries, dude. We can just finish it with audio anyways.   Eli Facenda (45:31.63) New recording track created the participants have been recorded.   Issue device struggling to record. High load on your device. Try closing all other apps. Give me one second. I don't have any apps open. That's really weird.   Eli Facenda (45:53.126) Yeah, I don't know man. I apologize. I Okay, well yeah   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:57.219) you're good, We'll just finish an audio and then I'll pull up for the video. I'll just black screen to a logo or something. So all good. I don't exactly know where you're at. If you want to start that sentence over.   Eli Facenda (46:04.048) Okay, cool.   Eli Facenda (46:07.866) Yeah, I'll just, I'll say, I'll just start. So yeah, so not only have we really walked the walk with actually living what we preach, but we also understand that psychology of what it's like to be a business owner, your limitations on time and complexity and all that stuff. And because we're talking about travel, people also want to know like what's actually in store for me in this destination. I've been to 50 countries now and my business partner has been to almost 100.   We have other team members who are all over 30, 40, 50 countries. So we've been to a lot of the destinations around the world that we're advising people to go to. So we know the ins and outs, best places to stay, hidden gems, top restaurants, stuff like that, that really add another layer of personalization and true experience into the service. So I think those are the things that really make us most credible in this space.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (46:57.506) Dude, it's so important, right? Like there's so many, you know, there's so much content out there now. There's gurus and coaches and mentors, whatever you want to call them. Like the ones that are truly valuable and that people should pay attention to are the ones that are actually practicing what they preach, right? The ones that aren't just selling you education or aren't just selling you a product. Like they're actually, they've done what they're selling and they continue to   enjoy or do what they're selling.   Eli Facenda (47:28.635) 100%, yeah, if you're a living embodiment of what you do, it makes it that much easier to communicate it and sell it because you just are the thing you're selling.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (47:38.764) Yeah, absolutely. What's one thing someone listening could do today to get 1 % closer to their dream life?   Eli Facenda (47:45.089) One thing that would be the easiest is to spend 30 minutes, go on Instagram, go on your favorite social media site, go on some travel blog site, look for your dream destination, then pull up your calendar and put a time on the calendar where you're committing to go. One of my favorite quotes is from Tim Ferriss, I forget the exact quote, but basically the idea is that if you don't schedule your fun first, it won't happen.   because your business and your life will take up as much space as you allow it to. So most people find that I'll take the trip when it's convenient. I'll take the trip when I have more time. That time is never coming until you make it a priority. So the one thing they can do to get closer to their dream life is to just make a more bold commitment to putting the time on the calendar and be like, I am going and make some sort of investment, whether you're telling someone, whether you're putting some money down, whether you're learn the point stuff, that's gonna be the biggest leverage you can make.   to make sure that you actually follow through on taking these trips and then you'll find how to get there on points if you need to from there.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (48:50.766) 100 % man, gotta put it, people, entrepreneurs, people like us, we work in all the time, you've gotta put it, put it in your schedule. You've gotta block it out, commit to it.   Eli Facenda (48:59.821) Absolutely, 100%.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (49:04.554) Alright dude, I think we got it wrapped up, man.   Eli Facenda (49:05.743) Beautiful. Awesome, Dan. Well, this was super fun and I apologize agai

Kev and Codey round up all the recent news Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:49: What Have We Been Up To 00:23:52: Game Releases 00:51:09: Game Updates 01:00:01: New Games 01:16:21: Outro Links Research Story 1.0 Little Witch in the Woods 1.0 Slime Rancher 2 1.0 Grimshire Early Access Hotel Galactic Early Access Hotel Galactic Apology Out and About Release Date Out and About Release Delay Ages of Cataria Early Access Release Go-go Town Switch Space Sprouts Update 1 Terra Nil Heatwave Update Snacko 1.1 Update Everdream Valley Family Time DLC Firefly Village Honogurashi No Niwa Galactic Getaway Development Issues Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Kev: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Kevin. I’m not alone today. I (0:00:38) Codey: Oooooh though people be clamorin’ for solo Kev time. (0:00:47) Kev: Like how I push the envelope every time I’m you know, I total line but oh (0:00:53) Codey: I’m gonna be real with you. (0:00:55) Codey: I have not listened to the most recent episode. (0:00:58) Codey: I think I’m still finishing up the Tiny Garden episode. (0:01:01) Kev: That’s okay, that’s fine. That’s fine. I (0:01:04) Codey: So I still have a couple episodes to go, (0:01:06) Codey: but I just know that you rock it every time. (0:01:13) Kev: Am (0:01:14) Kev: Getting an hour plus solo recording. I do that’s mmm. I don’t know if that’s good or bad (0:01:17) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:01:20) Kev: That just so that just shows I’m very well versed in talking to myself (0:01:25) Kev: possibly too much (0:01:27) Codey: - Nah, you got, you’re good at it. (0:01:30) Codey: It’s all good. (0:01:31) Kev: Ah, yeah, okay. Well, hi everyone again. I’m Kevin (0:01:36) Codey: - Yeah, you are and I’m not Kevin, I’m Cody. (0:01:37) Kev: Yeah (0:01:39) Kev: And there you go. There we go (0:01:41) Kev: certifiably not Kevin (0:01:43) Codey: - Yeah. (0:01:43) Kev: And we are here to talk today to talk about cottagecore games. Whoo (0:01:48) Codey: - Oh woo, ow, ow, ow. (0:01:50) Kev: Now you dear listener may be wondering why cottagecore and not more deep diving into the Lord of (0:01:56) Codey: Yeah, we really set we set y’all up for, uh, for some, some shire stuff. But alas, we (0:02:00) Kev: And well (0:02:04) Kev: The month of the Shire (0:02:08) Codey: are here, not for the shire. (0:02:10) Kev: The fake out oh, but you know, you know what I’m gonna add something to the what I’ve been up to (0:02:18) Codey: Oh, okay, cool. (0:02:22) Kev: Okay (0:02:24) Kev: But yeah, we’re all over and we’re here to talk about news because news is built up (0:02:28) Kev: We are spoiler alert (0:02:32) Kev: We’re working on the Shire episode, whatever the tale of the Shire episode, but we needed a weak buffer (0:02:36) Kev: And so Cody and I said alright, we’ll just do some news because there’s plenty of news to talk about with the build-up. So (0:02:40) Codey: Yeah. It sure has been a hot minute. (0:02:45) Kev: Yep (0:02:47) Kev: Okay, so yeah news catch up and we’ll get to that as we do (0:02:50) Kev: But before that Cody tell me what has been going on over over there in Cody World (0:02:56) Codey: to think of it. So I think, uh, during those episodes recording with Johnny, I had not yet (0:03:03) Codey: gone to beetle school. So since that time I went to beetle school, you guys, and I had some, (0:03:11) Codey: it was really fun. Uh, I was up in the Chiricahua’s in Arizona, which is not like my first thought. (0:03:16) Codey: I was like, Oh God, Arizona, not looking forward to this super hot. I don’t do hot. Uh, the Chiricahua’s (0:03:21) Codey: were. Lovely. Um, I want to say it never got above like 70 (0:03:26) Codey: degrees. It was like around 70 degrees, but we could go down (0:03:26) Kev: Ooh, that’s lovely! (0:03:31) Codey: into the desert. And so we went into the desert like at night a (0:03:34) Codey: couple times and we got to see some, some tarantulas and some (0:03:38) Codey: rattlesnakes. And so like we got to, to adventure. We also went (0:03:43) Codey: up higher where it was almost like 11,000 feet elevation, um, (0:03:48) Codey: in the Chiricahuas. And it was, it was actually very cold up (0:03:50) Codey: there. I was like, I should have brought a jacket. Yeah. (0:03:52) Kev: Yeah, yeah, it’s the elevation right cuz Atlanta’s similar where we’re you know down South deep, Georgia (0:03:57) Kev: But what’s its mountain eats high evolution into elevation so it can still get chilly (0:04:01) Codey: Yeah. So that was really fun. I learned a lot about Beatles and I feel a lot more confident now. (0:04:06) Kev: So and and you did you graduate are you certified are you do you have a license to be a beetle now? (0:04:13) Codey: You know, it’s funny because when I went to fly school last summer, they gave me a little certificate. (0:04:18) Kev: Yeah (0:04:21) Codey: We did not get a certificate for Beatles. So I, all I have, all I have is the memories. (0:04:23) Kev: Oh, oh no the Beatles got a step up their game (0:04:31) Codey: Uh, the one thing that is beneficial about this is so fly school was more of an international thing. (0:04:36) Codey: There were like maybe six or seven of us that were from the US, but most of the students were from, um, all over the world. (0:04:43) Codey: But so it is unlikely for me to run into the people that I met from fly school at the conferences that I go to because I mostly just go to United States conferences. (0:04:52) Codey: But all, almost all the beetle people, except for like two people, uh, there was a Canadian and a New Zealander. Um, they were all. (0:05:01) Codey: Uh, citizens of America. And so I will be seeing most of them at the conference that I’m going to in November. Very stoked about that. (0:05:09) Codey: Um, cause you make these connections and then, you know, I, it’s like, Oh man, when am I ever going to see that? (0:05:15) Codey: That really cool Italian from, from fly school or whatever. Um, but yeah, I will see most of these people again. (0:05:16) Kev: - Yeah. (0:05:18) Kev: Yeah. (laughs) (0:05:22) Codey: And it’s just great to start building those connections. Um, so I did that. (0:05:27) Codey: that. (0:05:31) Codey: I have also been playing, I’m still playing honey Grove. (0:05:35) Codey: Um, I have unlocked a new explorer B so I’m now at five, but I think there’s six. (0:05:44) Codey: And I’m just like playing it a little bit at a time. (0:05:47) Codey: I’m working on my specimens as per usual so I will graduate or I will defend in the in December now I have had to. (0:05:54) Kev: Okay, these are real specimens. We switched to not the honeygrove specimens (0:05:56) Codey: Correct. We’ve switched to real life. (0:06:01) Codey: Yeah, into the real world. (0:06:04) Codey: So yeah, working on that, I had almost the entire time we were (0:06:08) Codey: kind of on our little break and we were doing the Lord of the (0:06:11) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:12) Codey: Rings stuff. I actually had people that helped me. So I (0:06:13) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:15) Kev: No. (0:06:16) Codey: wasn’t doing everything by myself, which was amazing. Yeah, (0:06:18) Kev: You had cronies. (0:06:20) Codey: we called him my henchmen. And so I had henchmen and they did (0:06:21) Kev: Yeah, there you go, that’s correct. (0:06:25) Codey: an amazing job and they learned so much and I’m so proud of (0:06:28) Codey: them. But I am like almost back to being solo now and I (0:06:31) Codey: am stressing but I got it. I’ve got this but I had to push back (0:06:36) Codey: my defense just because of how much work so I will be defending (0:06:40) Codey: in December now fingers crossed and then actually like graduating (0:06:45) Codey: and like walking for my doctorate in the spring, which (0:06:46) Kev: Oh, snap. (0:06:48) Codey: I don’t super care about it being like so far out. (0:06:52) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:52) Codey: It’s actually better for a lot of my family members that want (0:06:55) Codey: to come and watch me walk because yeah, so they don’t have (0:06:57) Kev: To plan, yeah. (0:06:58) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:06:59) Codey: to come when it’s like. (0:07:01) Codey: Possibly snowy. (0:07:03) Codey: There’ve been times when my mom wanted to come visit or I wanted to go visit (0:07:06) Codey: home and it like during the June, um, sorry, December, um, January timeframe. (0:07:12) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:13) Codey: Then it just doesn’t work. (0:07:14) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:15) Codey: So it’s better for it to be. (0:07:16) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:16) Kev: I mean, yeah, it’s wild how people who don’t live in snowy areas just absolutely get bodied (0:07:26) Codey: Well, but even even that that I mean even just irrespective of that there is the fact that like (0:07:26) Kev: by snow. (0:07:32) Codey: We will have entire like planes shut down like people will try and travel like the last time I tried to go there (0:07:36) Kev: Oh, that… mmm… that is true. (0:07:41) Codey: I (0:07:42) Codey: Well, what’s the last time? (0:07:43) Codey: I don’t know (0:07:44) Codey: I tried to go home and I was gonna be home for like two and a half weeks and then I ended up having to cut (0:07:48) Codey: It short because my flight got delayed and then I finally got on the plane (0:07:52) Codey: Like it got delayed by like two days and then I finally got (0:07:54) Kev: No, my god, oh my goodness, oh (0:07:56) Codey: Yeah, and then I finally got on the plane. I was on the plane and then there were they had mechanical issues (0:08:00) Codey: And then finally when they can’t mechanical issues (0:08:01) Kev: No (0:08:03) Codey: Cleared up there was that flight was supposed to go to Chicago O’Hare and then O’Hare was getting like three feet of snow (0:08:10) Codey: So they were like, you know, you guys can sit tight (0:08:13) Codey: But we are basically being told to wait and I was just like nope screw it. I just left (0:08:16) Kev: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah (0:08:20) Codey: like (0:08:22) Codey: No (0:08:23) Codey: But yeah, so that kind of stuff happens (0:08:24) Kev: Apologies to Aislinn for triggering her (0:08:26) Codey: especially (0:08:30) Codey: Yeah, it’s I mean, yeah, she knows all about it and (0:08:34) Codey: Yeah going even just like going to Arizona and my stuff got canceled a million times. So (0:08:40) Codey: It’s just a hard time out there right now for sure (0:08:44) Codey: But then my last update is I’m playing Tales of the Shire (0:08:50) Kev: Did you- did you- did you- did- how far are you? (0:08:53) Codey: Um, I don’t… (0:08:56) Codey: Are you playing it too? (0:08:57) Kev: No, I’m not. I’m just curious. (0:08:58) Codey: Oh, okay. (0:08:59) Kev: I- did you have, you know, ballpark estimate? 50%? (0:09:02) Codey: No, no, no, not anywhere near that. (0:09:03) Kev: Okay. (0:09:04) Codey: I’m still in the same… (0:09:05) Kev: There you go. (0:09:06) Codey: I’m still in the first, like… (0:09:08) Codey: I think you start in summer. (0:09:10) Kev: Okay. (0:09:10) Codey: And I’m still in summer. (0:09:11) Kev: Mmm, ahh. (0:09:12) Codey: Um, but I feel like I’m getting… (0:09:18) Codey: I’m, like, going at a good clip. (0:09:19) Codey: I just was gone for a long time. (0:09:22) Codey: And then now that I’m back, (0:09:23) Codey: I’ve been so busy with, like, getting caught up with work. (0:09:24) Kev: Yeah. (0:09:26) Codey: Visiting and stuff, and so, yeah. (0:09:27) Kev: Ahh, alright, alright. (0:09:29) Codey: Uh, well, so that’s what I’ve been up to. (0:09:30) Kev: Well, uh… (0:09:31) Codey: What have you been up to, Kev? (0:09:32) Kev: Well, I was just gonna say, I’m waiting to hear when you finally defeat Sauron, um, Tails of the Shire, but, uh… (0:09:38) Kev: But, hahaha, but, uh… (0:09:40) Codey: That is, that is interesting. (0:09:42) Codey: I’m at the point, um, I don’t know if… (0:09:44) Codey: So this is not a spoiler. (0:09:45) Codey: I don’t know if “Tales of the Shire” is before or after. (0:09:49) Codey: So, um, yeah, I’m not entirely sure. (0:09:53) Codey: It is unclear to me at this, at this stage. (0:09:56) Kev: What if you invite Sauron to tea and you don’t even know it? (0:09:56) Codey: I… (0:09:59) Kev: It could happen. (0:10:00) Codey: You know what? (0:10:01) Codey: It could happen. (0:10:07) Kev: That’s good stuff. (0:10:09) Kev: Okay, well, this past week I’ve been slammed by work. (0:10:13) Kev: I did the coming of the office on, (0:10:15) Kev: I have to come into the office on Saturday yesterday (0:10:18) Kev: ‘cause it’s that bad. (0:10:20) Kev: But other than that, the week before wasn’t as bad. (0:10:26) Kev: There was actually an office party dinner thing (0:10:30) Kev: where I tried to karaoke for the first time. (0:10:32) Codey: Ooh, did you like, did you enjoy it? (0:10:34) Kev: Oh yeah, so, okay. (0:10:36) Kev: I mean, first of all, I am into music, period. (0:10:39) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:10:41) Kev: I am the one, first one on and last one off, (0:10:44) Kev: generally the dance floor. (0:10:46) Kev: Now, this wasn’t a dance floor, (0:10:48) Kev: even though I was moving a bit. (0:10:50) Kev: But, I mean, as evidenced by here, this endeavor, (0:10:54) Kev: I have no problem scre- (0:10:56) Kev: screaming things into a microphone so karaoke was to fit like a glove (0:11:01) Kev: um I I did many songs I don’t remember all of it I know I did um at first they (0:11:09) Kev: did like a curated list cuz they want to stay professionally yada yada but by the (0:11:14) Kev: end of it we’re just doing whatever I know I did the mean canto Columbia mean (0:11:19) Kev: canto from the Disney movie in canto I sung in Spanish build me up buttercup (0:11:22) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:11:26) Kev: there um oh my girl by the temptations that was a good one so on and so forth (0:11:33) Kev: anyways I did karaoke stay tuned will that show up on a solo ops or maybe I (0:11:38) Codey: Ooh, like you would do karaoke on a solo episode. (0:11:43) Kev: cannot be stopped you do will I have a new theme song written for the heart (0:11:48) Kev: season maybe yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah (0:11:50) Codey: I might, you know what, if ever we’re going to record again, I might have to, you know, I’m sick. (0:11:56) Kev: I mean will yeah oh my gosh I’ll should do one of those patreon goals you know (0:11:58) Codey: I want to hear the karaoke. (0:12:04) Codey: That would, you know what, that would be fun, having a greenhouse of karaoke. (0:12:08) Codey: I’m going to put that on there. I have green, oh my gosh, yeah, I have three greenhouses with (0:12:16) Kev: yeah we need to get that we got it we got (0:12:19) Codey: Kev on a sticky note on my laptop and it’s the Sonic 3 movie, Bluey and now karaoke. (0:12:26) Kev: all those are all excellent topics I love blue so I don’t watch blue in a (0:12:27) Codey: I know. (0:12:30) Kev: minute I’m not seeing all the way to something we’ll get there um okay but (0:12:36) Kev: yes karaoke so I carry okie on unabashedly and and yeah um okay game (0:12:44) Kev: stuff though um okay oh okay DK bonanza came out I do not have a switch to my (0:12:50) Kev: brother does I do not so I’ve not played it but (0:12:56) Kev: I do play Tetris 99 and they do events every now and then they’re the kind of (0:12:58) Codey: - Okay, yep. (0:13:03) Kev: always under the radar but I pick up on them because I’m a fiend for Tetris (0:13:07) Kev: DK Bonanza had an event where they put you know a special skin on the Tetris (0:13:12) Kev: screen the blocks and and they play music from the game and so on and so (0:13:17) Kev: forth it was great it’s fantastic music was stellar absolutely stellar so much (0:13:24) Kev: So that like a day or two after. (0:13:26) Kev: I was like, man, I want more of that DK Bonanza music in my veins. (0:13:30) Kev: So I loaded up on the done, you know, YouTube or whatever. (0:13:34) Kev: And then I saw spoilers. (0:13:35) Kev: I didn’t think I could ever see spoilers for a Donkey Kong game, but musical spoilers. (0:13:42) Kev: Which is wild that one, there were spoilers in the Donkey Kong game, but there are. (0:13:47) Kev: And two, that I was spoiled by the soundtrack. (0:13:49) Codey: by this soundtrack done dirty (0:13:53) Kev: so I uh you know (0:13:56) Kev: I haven’t played it but I will say that’s one of the greatest games ever (0:14:00) Kev: from what I’ve seen that will happen (0:14:03) Kev: oh goodness but um so yeah the DK bonanza it’s already good thumbs up from (0:14:10) Kev: you without playing it oh okay oh you know here’s another getting on game (0:14:16) Kev: thing and hey hey here we go people I’m still keeping it in theme I have been (0:14:21) Kev: watching Rings of Power on the Prime Video. (0:14:23) Codey: Ooooh. (0:14:26) Kev: Umm, that’s the Lord of the Rings the prequel series question mark? (0:14:29) Codey: Yeah, it’s it’s a prequel series. (0:14:30) Kev: I g- (0:14:32) Kev: Yeah, it is. I mean like, you know, it’s big open world of Tolkien lore, whatever, but- (0:14:38) Kev: But yes, it happens before the Lord of the Rings. (0:14:40) Kev: Umm… (0:14:41) Kev: I- I- Are you familiar with this at all, Cody? (0:14:44) Codey: unfortunately. Unfortunately, I wish I could get those hours back. No, so it is beautiful. (0:14:47) Kev: Oh, you are. (0:14:48) Kev: Th- That’s unfortunately you are. (0:14:56) Kev: That is all right. Oh no, uh-huh (0:15:00) Codey: It’s beautiful, but they only got rights to like some of the content. And so they just had to like, (0:15:08) Codey: make stuff up, and I hate it. Um. (0:15:09) Kev: Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard I (0:15:15) Codey: So without getting too, like, too nerdy, but this is still going to be fairly nerdy. And I could be (0:15:23) Codey: wrong, but this is kind of how I remember it. So Galadriel’s brothers were like fighting. They were (0:15:32) Codey: trying to get revenge on, I think Sauron, because he killed someone who was related to them in the (0:15:38) Codey: war of the, like, when they were trying to fight over the Silmarils. And so they basically like, killed. (0:15:44) Codey: They ended up, like, almost killing each other because they were just so, like, embroiled in this (0:15:47) Kev: - Yeah. (0:15:49) Codey: drama. And Galadriel, like, is known in the Silmarillion to have been like, I don’t want to (0:15:56) Codey: take part of my brother’s war, or my brother’s wars, or whatever. And then the Rings of Power (0:15:58) Kev: Okay, yeah (0:16:02) Codey: is all her taking part in her brother’s wars. And I’m like, no! So that was right away. I was like, (0:16:04) Kev: It is (0:16:08) Kev: Oh (0:16:12) Codey: Oh, I’m grumpy because she was. (0:16:13) Kev: That’s incredible (0:16:14) Codey: She was supposed to be like, not caring. (0:16:18) Codey: And she was just like, well, screw you guys. (0:16:20) Codey: I’m going to go live in the woods and. (0:16:21) Kev: I’m going to go in sight more war. Oh (0:16:24) Codey: Yeah, exactly. (0:16:25) Codey: And so, but I get they had to do things differently and like. (0:16:28) Kev: That’s that’s amazing (0:16:30) Kev: So I guess I have the privilege of being a normie like I have watched Florida the Rings in the Hobbit (0:16:34) Codey: Yeah. (0:16:35) Kev: But I’m I’m not deep in there. It’s it’s it’s I’ve struggled for it just to stick with me (0:16:40) Codey: Well, and there’s just like so much like, who is so wrong? (0:16:43) Kev: Yeah (0:16:45) Kev: Yes (0:16:45) Codey: Are we all Sauron? (0:16:48) Codey: Like, there’s a Sauron in all of us. (0:16:48) Kev: Maybe that maybe if we believe it (0:16:50) Codey: And I like the whole time and I’m just like, okay, I’m, I’m done with this. (0:16:54) Codey: Like, I, uh, (0:16:58) Kev: He does (0:17:00) Kev: That is probably (0:17:02) Kev: like one of the most (0:17:04) Kev: entertaining but in a bad kind of way like he’s very (0:17:08) Kev: Over the top almost like I mean not not ridiculously so but compared to the the movies, right? (0:17:13) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:17:14) Kev: Sauron is a you know more of a force. He’s not a guy right? (0:17:17) Kev: He’s he is the giant eyeball in the sky and this overwhelming presence and here he’s he compared to that (0:17:23) Kev: He feels like a mustache twirling, you know, ooh spooky bit (0:17:26) Codey: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:29) Kev: But that’s it. I mean I’ve been enjoying it. I don’t know all the lore (0:17:32) Kev: I point to the screen when I know a thing but then that’s it (0:17:36) Kev: It’s the productions. Well done. It’s good production better production than the Hobbit (0:17:40) Codey: Yeah, it’s gorgeous. (0:17:41) Codey: It is beautiful and like, but I, (0:17:44) Codey: so I don’t think I’ve watched past the first season. (0:17:46) Codey: I don’t know how much there is. (0:17:48) Kev: There’s three two and they’re working on (0:17:51) Codey: Okay, I didn’t watch past the first one (0:17:53) Codey: because I just, I need to like take off my snooty hat, (0:17:58) Kev: - Yeah. (0:17:59) Codey: you know, and just let things be different and stuff. (0:18:02) Codey: and I just have yet to… (0:18:05) Codey: get the balls to do that, I guess, I don’t know. (0:18:08) Kev: Yeah, it’s hmm. I will I will say again. I say this as a very (0:18:14) Kev: novice casual Lord of the Rings enjoyer (0:18:16) Kev: I feel like they’re really trying hard to tie it to the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, you know the movies right because like (0:18:20) Codey: Yeah, but they’re like literally not supposed to. (0:18:24) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I know because there’s the the hobbits. They’re not even called hobbits (0:18:28) Kev: I forget anyways there are two hobbits and it’s very clearly trying to evoke Sam and Frodo even though they’re not and but no (0:18:37) Kev: Whatever (0:18:38) Kev: It’s fine. I’m enjoying it. Whatever. There you go (0:18:38) Codey: Yep, wasn’t my favorite. It’s I it is enjoyable, especially I think if you have not seen. Yeah, (0:18:45) Kev: The less you know the less, you know with the little tuning star (0:18:47) Codey: the last you know. But like what before it was coming up, I was like, so because I knew it was (0:18:52) Codey: coming. So I read that I was like, I’m gonna read the Silmarillion and then I can have like a little (0:18:53) Kev: Yeah (0:18:56) Codey: bit of idea and I really just shouldn’t have because it ruined it for me. Yep. (0:18:59) Kev: You know too much (0:19:01) Kev: You’re you’re into deep (0:19:03) Kev: Yeah, but I mean it’s it’s fine like it it’s it’s there are worse things to watch (0:19:08) Codey: Yeah, and I know, no, no, dude, that third one, this is me trying not to yell right now. (0:19:09) Kev: Arguably some of the Hobbit movies. Mm-hmm. That third one’s rough. I’m just sorry (0:19:20) Codey: That third one is rough for people because they don’t watch the extended edition. (0:19:25) Kev: Yeah (0:19:27) Codey: You got to watch all of it. (0:19:28) Kev: Okay, you know what that’s probably fair just that’s oh (0:19:31) Codey: There’s so much that’s like cut out that makes it seem like not then you’re like, (0:19:34) Kev: I believe it (0:19:37) Codey: why is he why is this (0:19:38) Codey: so (0:19:39) Kev: You (0:19:40) Kev: That is correct. That is my reaction to many things in that movie is someone who’s not seen the extended cut (0:19:46) Codey: You gotta see the extended come if you if you believe if you think the Hobbit movies are bad come come (0:19:47) Kev: Okay (0:19:51) Codey: We’ll go watch if you and you haven’t seen the extended and you haven’t seen the extended editions (0:19:52) Kev: Go listen to the episode (0:19:56) Codey: Go watch them and then come back to me (0:19:59) Kev: Okay, we have a greenhouse episode on the hobbit I have not listened to it to be fair (0:20:02) Codey: We do (0:20:06) Codey: We do we had fun with those for sure (0:20:07) Kev: But I will (0:20:08) Kev: Yeah, I bet (0:20:10) Codey: When we were recording them, we were like, I don’t know if I was gonna cut half of this or not (0:20:14) Kev: As Al pointed out those greenhouse discussions sparked more discussion in the slack than any other episode of anything (0:20:16) Codey: You (0:20:19) Codey: Yeah, maybe we just need to be let loose (0:20:29) Kev: Okay, um, but yeah, okay now they all right one more thing um for me um the big one (0:20:36) Kev: Uh, Drumroll, please unicorn overla- (0:20:38) Kev: Oh Lord, credits hit today baby! (0:20:41) Codey: Ooh! (0:20:43) Kev: Ooh, um, so I did, like, everything, to be fair, right? (0:20:43) Codey: How many hours is that? (0:20:48) Kev: ‘Cause they’re- they’re very clear, like, here’s the main missions, here’s a bunch of side missions, and you don’t- they’re optional. (0:20:54) Kev: Uh, I did it all, I clocked in at about 110 hours, I think it was. (0:21:00) Kev: Um, and yeah- (0:21:04) Kev: So, I mean, overall thumbs up, my comments are still- (0:21:07) Kev: It’s a– (0:21:08) Kev: Consistent game, I’ll say that. (0:21:10) Kev: Like it’s– (0:21:12) Kev: It’s the strategy gameplay. The story is nothing to write home about. It’s straightforward fantasy (0:21:21) Kev: armies and whatnot. (0:21:23) Kev: Political royalty, yada, yada. (0:21:26) Kev: So it’s enjoyable. It’s comfort food for me. So I enjoy it. Like it’s quality. Don’t get me wrong. (0:21:29) Codey: Yeah. (0:21:32) Kev: It’s not bad, but it just hits the spot for me. (0:21:36) Kev: My biggest complaint and this is gonna sound weird cuz I (0:21:39) Kev: Just said I clocked in 110 hours (0:21:41) Kev: it’s it’s not enough they’re missing and and (0:21:48) Kev: Specifically the end I think I mentioned this on a previous episode, but (0:21:52) Kev: As it came out the developers ran out of money towards the end and you can feel it you can feel it (0:22:00) Kev: So the like I said, there’s main missions, right? And as you beat them, you know (0:22:04) Kev: You’ll not you progress towards the final mission in the (0:22:09) Kev: ultimate main mission you unlock you get one new character a new class that you’ve never had before (0:22:16) Codey: Okay. (0:22:17) Kev: Which in you know these kind of strategy games, that’s a big deal like you don’t get any time to use your new toy basically (0:22:23) Codey: Mm hmm. (0:22:24) Codey: Yeah. (0:22:24) Kev: Congrats, you finally got the last character go beat the game (0:22:29) Kev: Now that’s it there is a little post game epilogue that I can do and whatnot (0:22:35) Kev: And it is still overall very big. It has a lot of (0:22:39) Kev: Variations and and just little things. There’s a couple of different endings you can do (0:22:45) Kev: There’s relationships and and and support conversations that are fun (0:22:52) Kev: But but yeah overall it’s great (0:22:56) Kev: one of the (0:22:58) Kev: Interesting things to get the true the best ending you have to get hitched you have to find a partner (0:23:02) Codey: Mmm. Boo. (0:23:04) Kev: Which is yeah (0:23:07) Kev: Yeah, they try to play it up in the (0:23:08) Kev: it’s it’s a little it’s a little forced a little you know shoehorned in but but (0:23:15) Kev: whatever I still I still have a lot of fun I’m very happy I want more I want (0:23:21) Kev: unicorn overlord 2 now please but yeah just thumbs up overall and that game (0:23:28) Kev: frequently goes on sale so if you have any interest in strategy you know fantasy (0:23:33) Kev: stuff go for it it’s good but okay and hey I hit credits on the game that (0:23:38) Kev: been often for me and at least not lately so yeah all right okay so that’s (0:23:43) Kev: uh that’s that’s stuff we’ve been up to whoo all right let’s get into news (0:23:50) Kev: there’s a lot of it all right we’re gonna start off with the game about Cody (0:23:56) Kev: research story in honor of her almost getting done so they came out with 1.0 (0:24:02) Kev: that is out now I don’t know when it would July it’s been (0:24:09) Kev: for a while more than now yep exactly (0:24:10) Codey: Well, yeah news catch-up episode everybody (0:24:15) Codey: Yeah, so this uh, this adds the epilogue the conclusion some end credits, you know proposals and marriage (0:24:22) Codey: One thing that I super enjoy about this is they have 10 marriage candidates and the proposals can either be player (0:24:29) Codey: initiated or NPC initiated (0:24:32) Kev: Oh, that’s… Oh my gosh! Has that been done before? (0:24:34) Codey: So I (0:24:37) Kev: Oh… (0:24:37) Codey: I don’t know, but I kind of like that where you’re. (0:24:40) Codey: Spend in time with an NPC and then suddenly you just hit a cut scene and they’re proposing to you like I think that’s awesome. (0:24:49) Kev: pretty good that’s pretty like you know obviously well documented lamenting of (0:24:54) Kev: the relationship mechanic or whatever but if you’re gonna do it put in some (0:24:57) Codey: Right. (0:24:59) Kev: effort do something new that’s good I like that that’s good (0:25:01) Codey: Yeah. (0:25:03) Codey: Definitely like that. (0:25:05) Codey: Give more to say about that. (0:25:07) Kev: no just with two things one that makes you think of unicorn oh Lord at one one (0:25:12) Kev: quick shout out just I remembered to get the true ending you have to have your (0:25:16) Kev: Which I think this is actually kind of a thumbs (0:25:19) Kev: up for me. You have to have whoever your selected partner is in your party for the final fight to get the true ending, which I think is kind of nice. (0:25:28) Kev: But yeah, no, just overall, I think that’s great. Having the other person initiate it, that’s great. (0:25:34) Kev: Yeah, no, I’m still kind of on the fence of it being included in the game at all, but here we are, and they did work, so I’ll give them props for that. (0:25:45) Codey: Um, yeah, so that was cool. (0:25:47) Codey: They also had some quality of life adjustments. (0:25:50) Codey: Um, so that brings the game to its 1.0, which is great. (0:25:53) Codey: And the current price is 1399. (0:25:55) Codey: They had it on sale for 60% off, I believe, um, for a hot minute. (0:26:00) Codey: But I think by the time this comes out, it’s already gone. (0:26:03) Codey: So, um, yeah, so, but that’s fine. (0:26:04) Kev: store. Yeah, it’s really not. And that’s, that’s fine. Yeah, the kind I almost feel bad that (0:26:07) Codey: 1399 is nothing. (0:26:08) Codey: Um, on August 28th, they’re going to increase it to 1499. (0:26:15) Codey: Just still feel nothing. (0:26:17) Codey: So you guys. (0:26:21) Kev: they said we, we are not charging, we’re not making money, they, they do deserve that money. (0:26:26) Codey: Yeah, so that was cool. (0:26:26) Kev: So good for them. (0:26:30) Codey: And then the final thing, they had a couple hints (0:26:34) Codey: of what they’re working on next. (0:26:35) Codey: And they are going to do Mac ports and Linux ports. (0:26:41) Codey: But Mac– ooh, very excited about that. (0:26:43) Kev: - Yeah, woo! (0:26:48) Codey: I just never touch my PC anymore. (0:26:50) Kev: laughs I… (0:26:52) Codey: So we’re going to move it up. (0:26:54) Codey: We’re supposed to move it up here this week. (0:26:56) Codey: Um, but I’m also like very busy right now. (0:26:59) Codey: So there’s no way I’m going to play it soon, but. (0:27:02) Kev: Yeah, I have never owned an Apple product. No, that’s not true. I had an iPad or iPod. (0:27:08) Codey: iPod. (0:27:08) Kev: Yeah, that’s an iPod, yes. Back in the day, like the Mini, the Nano, whatever. That’s it. (0:27:14) Kev: But hey, good for you people. Man, those romancibles, they are pretty people. (0:27:18) Codey: - Yeah. (0:27:23) Codey: That’s pretty, yeah. (0:27:25) Codey: They, yeah. (0:27:26) Kev: Sparkles all over. Somebody has birds in there. Good for them. (0:27:30) Codey: Yep. (0:27:32) Kev: All right. Yeah, good for your research story. I do think it is worth celebrating any of these games (0:27:39) Kev: because we’ve seen them in the docket so long, hit 1.0. So good for you. Yeah, (0:27:44) Kev: and it feels like a 1.0 release. Speaking of 1.0s, a little witch in the woods. (0:27:53) Kev: September 4th, they’re dropping the 1.0. And yeah, let’s hear it. (0:28:02) Kev: Okay, right now it’s $16. That is comparable to the other ones. Oh man, these people, (0:28:11) Kev: like, I feel weird saying it. I just feel bad for these devs who work so hard. (0:28:15) Kev: They could probably go up to $19.99. I’m just saying. No one’s gonna weep over the extra (0:28:17) Codey: Yeah, like that’s not going to be that’s not going to break the bank. (0:28:21) Kev: five bucks. I’m just saying. No, it’s not. They deserve a 20. I’m just saying. Anyways, (0:28:30) Kev: So yeah, it’s dropped (0:28:32) Kev: September 4th, it’s you know, all sorts of new features new areas the villager the village with new villagers stories (0:28:41) Kev: quality of life, etc, etc (0:28:44) Kev: so yeah, that’s (0:28:46) Kev: Yeah, good for them. That’ll be you know more less than a month when this drops (0:28:54) Kev: So yeah, I’m looking forward to that. Yeah, I don’t know how do we (0:29:00) Kev: I’m just thinking, how do I feel about the- (0:29:02) Kev: It does look very cute. I like the art style a lot. Will I play this? I don’t know, maybe. (0:29:06) Codey: Yeah, I’m, I don’t know how I feel bad, but I’m, I’m, I’m done with witches, man. I’ve. (0:29:12) Kev: It it has been used exhaustively in this space hasn’t it? (0:29:19) Kev: Yeah (0:29:20) Kev: But but hey (0:29:23) Kev: Well, let’s say here wait one second. Well, you know what? Let’s uh, oh gosh (0:29:30) Kev: No, never mind. Okay. Okay. Um, alright, let’s talk about (0:29:34) Kev: another release coming out (0:29:36) Kev: Slime Rancher 2 September 23rd that is another 1.0. It’s (0:29:42) Kev: Coming out on (0:29:44) Kev: Everything pretty much nuts. Not true steam epic games PS. I can’t believe the epic game store still running (0:29:50) Codey: Yep. Yep. (0:29:50) Kev: PS 5 and Xbox series x slash x s whatever that whatever the current letter is not switch not switch - (0:29:59) Kev: but (0:30:01) Kev: Yeah, it’s coming out. It looks (0:30:04) Kev: Chaotic and fun. It’s it’s weird. We don’t talk about first-person shooters on this on this show much (0:30:10) Kev: But yeah, here we go with you (0:30:12) Kev: Vacuum up or launch the slimes (0:30:15) Kev: Yeah, I don’t know the well. I didn’t play the first one. I will probably not play. There’s nothing wrong with it (0:30:21) Kev: I’m just busy (0:30:22) Codey: Yeah, not not super for me either. But I know some people (0:30:26) Codey: are really excited about it. So very happy for them that it is (0:30:28) Kev: Yeah, no it (0:30:30) Codey: coming out in a month and a half. (0:30:32) Kev: It looks like a quality game. I will say that so good for you so I’m rancher to have people (0:30:38) Kev: Alright, now let’s keep rolling. (0:30:43) Kev: Ok, we’re backing off from the releases. (0:30:46) Kev: Let’s go now to our bread and butter on the show, Early Access and Betas. (0:30:52) Kev: Early Access for the game called Grimshire. (0:30:58) Kev: It is officially out now. (0:31:02) Kev: Let’s see here. (0:31:04) Kev: Here, you wrote some notes, take it away Cody. (0:31:06) Codey: - Yeah, so I wrote some notes (0:31:08) Codey: because I hadn’t really heard about this game (0:31:10) Codey: and I was like, what, this is Grimshire? (0:31:14) Codey: But this is a cozy game podcast, (0:31:16) Codey: like Cottagecore game podcast, what? (0:31:18) Codey: And so I went and looked at it and it is, it’s cute. (0:31:22) Codey: It reminds me, like the character models (0:31:25) Codey: remind me a lot of Redwall. (0:31:28) Codey: Did you ever read the Redwall books? (0:31:30) Kev: Yeah yo, so yeah, this is Redwall is like one of my favorite fantasy variants. (0:31:37) Kev: I don’t know how to describe that, but like, because anytime you, the critter, it’s like anthropomorphic critters and little animals. (0:31:44) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:31:45) Kev: I’m, I’m down like 10, I’m not going to lie. (0:31:50) Kev: That’s kind of what got me into magic. (0:31:52) Kev: They released a set called bloom burrow, which was Redwall s magic cards. (0:31:52) Codey: [LAUGHS] Yeah. (0:31:57) Kev: and it kind of caught my eye. (0:32:00) Kev: So yes, I love Redwall very much. (0:32:02) Codey: Yeah, so it reminds me of that and then, um, I kind of read more about it. (0:32:07) Codey: They said, quote, we’ve been working on this cozy but grim little world for the past three (0:32:11) Codey: years. (0:32:12) Codey: And I was like, cozy but grim? (0:32:16) Codey: Like how can something be cozy and grim at the same time? (0:32:20) Codey: But I have also been recently watching Little House on the Prairie. (0:32:24) Kev: Oh! Oh! That is, how should I put this? One of the Soria family staples. We’ve watched the series at least four times in the entirety! (0:32:27) Codey: Did you ever watch that show? (0:32:33) Codey: Okay. (0:32:38) Codey: Okay cool. (0:32:39) Codey: Yeah, so I would also describe that as cozy but grim. (0:32:44) Kev: Every episode of Tragedy, you can’t. (0:32:46) Codey: Every single episode. (0:32:48) Codey: And I was like texting Jeff cause I was watching them and I would just text him suddenly and (0:32:53) Codey: be like, she got a pet raccoon and then they thought the raccoon had rabies. (0:32:56) Kev: Oh, no, that episode! (0:32:59) Codey: And then he was like literally about to shoot the dog. (0:33:02) Codey: And the raccoon also bit Laura. (0:33:04) Codey: So if the dog got rabies, she was going to have rabies and then it was. (0:33:08) Codey: And I’m just like, I’m like sobbing, just tears streaming down my face. (0:33:12) Kev: The raccoon ups that one’s intense. Oh my gosh (0:33:12) Codey: And he was just, that was intense. (0:33:15) Codey: This is first season, like so many things happened in the first season. (0:33:19) Codey: And I’m like, Oh yeah, I would have described that also as cozy, but grim. (0:33:23) Kev: Yeah (0:33:23) Codey: So I get it. (0:33:26) Kev: Yeah (0:33:27) Kev: But yeah, and I mean if you watch the trailer for Grimshire here like yeah, it’s it’s pretty grim like towards the end (0:33:34) Kev: You see like the story is about (0:33:37) Codey: plague (0:33:37) Kev: Some survival stuff. There is a pyre. There’s a funeral pyre (0:33:39) Codey: Yeah (0:33:41) Codey: Yeah, cuz there’s plague there’s plague in the area so which is also a little house of the food (0:33:42) Kev: And people wondering if they’re gonna die (0:33:45) Kev: Yeah (0:33:48) Kev: More than multiple (0:33:49) Codey: More than one. Oh, no (0:33:51) Codey: Well, yeah (0:33:52) Codey: I guess cuz there I just they just had a typhus outbreak in this one and it didn’t make I know one of them (0:33:54) Kev: Yeah (0:33:57) Codey: Makes the sister go blind anyway (0:34:01) Codey: So they said quote in early access you can play throughout year one (0:34:04) Codey: but your file will be stuck on winter 28th once you get there. (0:34:07) Codey: The day keeps repeating after you go to bed, (0:34:09) Codey: and we will be adding more content and story in the future. (0:34:11) Codey: So just a heads up, if this is something (0:34:13) Codey: that you were going to think about doing, (0:34:16) Codey: then you’re not going to be able to go further than that. (0:34:20) Codey: And they also said that their old demo save files (0:34:24) Codey: won’t carry over into the full game. (0:34:27) Codey: So if there are any new demo– (0:34:32) Codey: if you restart a new demo now in the early access, (0:34:37) Codey: that will be compatible with the full game. (0:34:39) Codey: But if you’ve played the demo before, (0:34:43) Codey: you will have to start over. (0:34:45) Codey: Just a heads up. (0:34:46) Kev: That’s kind of a bummer (0:34:48) Codey: I get that it happens sometimes, though. (0:34:49) Kev: Yeah, I get it too. I’m just saying like yeah, you know (0:34:52) Kev: I I’m interested in this game because it’s got the red wall thing that the dark angle (0:34:57) Kev: I mean, I’m intrigued but uh, but I probably will wait till I know when you know, I can keep a save or whatever (0:35:02) Codey: Yep, and so they also say that they’re going to add more stuff as they head to 1.0. (0:35:04) Kev: Yeah (0:35:10) Codey: This is actually a common theme of a lot of what we’re talking about today. (0:35:15) Codey: They are going to add more, and they have a little bit of a roadmap, but there are no (0:35:19) Codey: dates on that roadmap. (0:35:21) Codey: So just letting you know what’s coming up, but they don’t have any expected like, “Oh, (0:35:28) Codey: we’re expecting this to be done at this time and this to be done at this time,” which is (0:35:30) Kev: Yeah, yeah, that that’s fine (0:35:31) Codey: It’s probably realistic. (0:35:32) Codey: Uhm, just feels a little. (0:35:36) Kev: Okay, well hey you I’m I’m definitely have my eye on Grimshire though all things said maybe not right now, but oh, but yeah (0:35:45) Kev: Okay (0:35:46) Kev: Let’s see what else next up another early access (0:35:50) Kev: Hotel galactic (0:35:53) Kev: Early oh my gosh $35. That’s kind of a it’s premium. That’s some premium pricing (0:35:56) Codey: I know, right? (0:36:00) Codey: Well, and there was drama associated with it. (0:36:00) Kev: Oh (0:36:05) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:36:06) Codey: So they released the early access on July 24. (0:36:12) Codey: And in that initial post, they said (0:36:14) Codey: that in the weeks following the release, (0:36:17) Codey: they wanted feedback. (0:36:20) Codey: Again, they had a projected roadmap, (0:36:23) Codey: but I didn’t have dates on it. (0:36:24) Codey: Literally two days later. (0:36:26) Codey: They posed another thing on Steam that’s basically like oops. (0:36:30) Codey: We’re sorry for the state of the game. (0:36:33) Codey: Um, and they say, quote, our rundown hotel has not yet been restored to its future. (0:36:38) Codey: Glory. (0:36:38) Codey: We are fully aware of that. (0:36:40) Codey: And we sincerely apologize that our early access build did not (0:36:44) Codey: meet all of your expectations. (0:36:46) Codey: We made a mistake and we take full responsibility. (0:36:49) Codey: Um, as part of like this, that’s end quote, as part of this, uh, mistake, (0:36:54) Codey: quote unquote (0:36:56) Codey: They are adding compensation strategies so they’re going to find a way to compensate people who have already paid for this early access. (0:37:04) Codey: Kevin, how do you feel about that? (0:37:06) Kev: Oh, okay. Um, all right. First off, I’m gonna take one step back here. First of all, what is the game cuz let’s write that that’s gonna I think that illustrates expectations. It’s a clearly studio Ghibli specifically spirited away inspired game of how should I put this spirit favor esque of the, you know, the side view with the the rooms that you hop around that you’re building up a hotel that then and so yeah, you’re kind of (0:37:10) Codey: - Mm-hmm, right, so… (0:37:36) Kev: expanding the hotel, maintaining guests, etc, etc. We’ve talked about it before I just I just can’t remember anyway, so that’s the game. And so now, okay, before any drama $35 feels like a decent chunk of change for this game, considering spirit fair is noticeably not $35. Um, so you know, the expected prices set expectations, right? That’s like the number one thing in in gaming, (0:38:06) Kev: marketing, whatever. (0:38:09) Kev: So, you know, dropping $35 on the city, it better be good. Now, early when I play an early access, or, you know, I hear about it, I expect things to be buggy, right? That’s kind of a big part of the point, right? betas and play testing all that good stuff. So how bad was this? I can’t even imagine how bad this was to demand or (0:38:36) Kev: to elicit an apology. (0:38:38) Codey: Yeah, I think that that’s like my biggest issue and why I like pulled this question out because (0:38:44) Codey: if I am playing something that’s in early access I’m (0:38:47) Codey: expecting bugs like even if it’s game-breaking bugs like even if it is (0:38:51) Codey: something like they put this out two days later if there was if there were (0:38:57) Codey: bugs that made the game unplayable and it was then like two weeks later and they (0:39:02) Codey: hadn’t responded yeah compensate them like unless you had a friggin family (0:39:08) Codey: and you didn’t have any way to be working on the game at that time but (0:39:11) Codey: literally two days after full release I think that’s par for the course for a (0:39:17) Codey: game that is as ambitious as this game so personally I’d be like like if I were (0:39:25) Codey: one of the people who kick-started it or whatever I’d be like no no don’t worry (0:39:28) Codey: about reimbursing me just like take your time keep doing what you’re doing like (0:39:32) Codey: here’s more feedback and give feedback because they literally won’t need (0:39:36) Kev: Sure, sure. Well, okay. I think there’s two things one. There’s a compensation. I don’t think then it’s gonna be necessarily monetarily (0:39:43) Kev: That could just be you know in game item status, whatever something a bonus of some kind (0:39:50) Kev: That’s what I expect (0:39:53) Kev: But (0:39:54) Kev: But yeah, I like I agree with you (0:39:58) Kev: Like I don’t know maybe it’s just this developer. Maybe they’re just very sensitive about the (0:40:04) Kev: the responses, it could be, I don’t know, or. (0:40:06) Kev: Maybe it was just that bad. (0:40:09) Kev: I don’t know where this lands. (0:40:10) Codey: Okay, so they have, they do have some of the things, they explain what some of the bugs (0:40:16) Codey: were that were coming up. And I mean, some of them are like, you know, game like breaking (0:40:23) Codey: down or requests being blocked, cooking recipes not working, in game time, freezing stuff (0:40:29) Codey: like that. But my favorite too, was that the workers are refusing to perform tasks. And (0:40:33) Kev: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, like, I mean, all right, you know what, I think that the (0:40:37) Codey: You know what? (0:40:38) Codey: Good for them. (0:40:40) Codey: Let them unionize. (0:40:40) Codey: Like that is a bug that if that was happening, I would cackle. (0:40:46) Codey: I would be laughing so hard and I would message them and be like, (0:40:48) Codey: Hey, this is happening. (0:40:50) Codey: But like, I mean, what are you going to do? (0:40:58) Kev: The only problem is, I’m going to go back to the $35 price point for early. (0:41:01) Codey: - Okay, yeah. (0:41:03) Kev: If that was their full release price point, sure, whatever, for early access, I don’t know, $15, maybe? That’s kind of high still, but, that’s, I mean it’s tough, you need money to keep it going, but I don’t know. (0:41:19) Kev: Ooh, that’s rough though. (0:41:20) Codey: So the other the other bug that I loved was that guests were stuck in an endless sleep loop. (0:41:30) Kev: I like that. (0:41:30) Codey: And you know what, same. I feel like sometimes in my life I there’s just a bug happening and I’m just stuck endlessly sleeping. (0:41:40) Kev: That’s not that’s that’s a feature not a bug (0:41:40) Codey: So I get it. Sometimes it just be that way. (0:41:50) Codey: Yeah, so those are the two things that I thought were hilarious other I mean like I get if (0:41:56) Kev: Yum (0:41:56) Codey: there’s like other things happening but that much outrage to come out in the 48 hours post (0:41:58) Kev: Yum (0:42:03) Kev: Well, you know here here’s another thing is (0:42:07) Kev: What if what is what about the knot game break (0:42:10) Kev: breaking part like what if it’s, you know, has just not fun, you know, like, sure. (0:42:14) Codey: but that’s again something that is going to be improved upon I mean I played lens islands (0:42:19) Codey: first one and like it was I saw where they were going with it but it was definitely like pretty (0:42:24) Codey: basic and they have improved it so much and it seems so fun now like oh sorry not seems it is (0:42:30) Codey: so fun now. But yeah, I just (0:42:30) Kev: Yeah (0:42:35) Kev: Yeah, like I said, I think the only real issue the mistake was the $35 price point (0:42:42) Kev: That’s all that’s that’s something to go back to right because I how much did you pay for for the other ones? (0:42:48) Kev: It wasn’t $35 (0:42:50) Codey: - No, probably not, yeah. (0:42:51) Kev: Yeah, right (0:42:53) Codey: I don’t even remember it was so long ago. (0:42:55) Kev: Yeah, but but anyways (0:42:59) Kev: Well, I’ll give him this (0:43:01) Kev: They they came out and said something right that’s good (0:43:04) Kev: So all right, that’s hotel galactic. I’ll keep keep an eye out to see if they fix that hotel (0:43:14) Kev: Okay, um, all right here next up and (0:43:20) Kev: Purred the a few sentences into Al’s notes. It is early access is confirmed. Oh (0:43:27) Kev: Oh, oh wait, no, not out yet. (0:43:29) Kev: It will be a, sorry. (0:43:30) Codey: No, no, no, no. (0:43:31) Kev: Dates, they’re weird. (0:43:32) Kev: It is out, when people are listening to this, it will be out. (0:43:35) Kev: It is already out now when we’re recording, ‘cause, wait, no? (0:43:39) Kev: Oh my go- oh my go- I’m misreading that, you’re right! (0:43:40) Codey: Okay, so let me let me do this. (0:43:41) Kev: Oh my gosh. (0:43:42) Codey: So Al wrote early access releasing. (0:43:43) Kev: Oh my goodness. (0:43:46) Codey: Well, out now maybe and then there’s another bullet not actually out yet, but was meant to be out 7th of August, but they clicked the wrong button on release. (0:43:54) Kev: Oh my go- (0:43:58) Codey: So, it’s fine. (0:44:02) Codey: This is their quote. I love this for them. (0:44:04) Codey: I mean, it’s probably very stressful for them, but I think this is hilarious. (0:44:08) Codey: Quote, “We are heartbroken to say this, but we can’t release today. We literally cannot press the button. It’s gone.” (0:44:16) Codey: The game is ready to go. Everything was prepared, but since this is our first release ever, we forgot to tick the early access checkbox on the Steam backend until this morning. (0:44:26) Codey: and once that is ticked, Steam automatically put our Steam page into (0:44:30) Codey: review mode, which is a normal process on their end, but for us it couldn’t have come at a worse (0:44:35) Codey: time. This has caused the release button to disappear and we cannot click it. (0:44:41) Kev: Aaaah! Hah! (0:44:42) Codey: Oh dude, but that is like such like beer like I could see that being like bureaucracy stuff like (0:44:47) Codey: that’s not how are you supposed to know how are you supposed to know to click that check box or (0:44:53) Codey: what if they started the game before that checkbox was there and then it just like was like well they (0:44:57) Codey: didn’t click it I don’t know it (0:45:00) Kev: But (0:45:00) Codey: good for that like they’ll figure it out it’s it’s only been three days there (0:45:02) Kev: Yeah, that that’s good (0:45:06) Codey: is not an update yet let me just double-check that this is true but (0:45:11) Kev: I’ve (0:45:14) Kev: I’ve just got to say I love (0:45:18) Kev: Game big news stories that come from pushin

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unpack what “buy-in” actually means and what it takes to move from surface-level support to genuine commitment in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined once again by Scott Dunn to tackle a listener-chosen topic: how to get real buy-in for Agile initiatives, especially when shifting from a non-Scrum environment. They explore why buy-in isn’t about enthusiastic cheerleading or deep Agile knowledge, but about leaders and teams aligning on desired outcomes. From the cost of performative support to the emotional side of change, Brian and Scott share practical strategies for securing support at all levels of the organization. Along the way, they dive into influence tactics, the importance of shared purpose, and how co-creation—not compliance—drives lasting change. Whether you're guiding a large transformation or simply trying to influence up, this episode will help you rethink how to earn trust, build alignment, and inspire meaningful momentum. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn Elements of Agile Assessment Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:01) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And I also have with me today someone that you probably know pretty well because he took over this podcast for about a month there. Mr. Scott Dunn is with us. Welcome in, Scott. Scott Dunn (00:19) Hey, thanks Brian. Yes, that podcast takeover was a lot of fun. So thank you for that opportunity. That was a hoot. Had a great time. Brian Milner (00:25) Absolutely. Well, I don't think I publicly thanked you for that. just ⁓ a public thanks. Scott Dunn (00:28) No, you didn't. No, not even an email. Not even a Slack message. Brian Milner (00:33) Well, very public thanks to you for doing that. Those episodes were great. I enjoyed them and it was fun to be a listener. It was fun to listen to it and just kind of hear the conversations and be a fly on the wall for those. So thanks again for doing that. Scott Dunn (00:47) Yeah. Yeah. It's a real treat. Brian Milner (00:48) We're having Scott on we kind of ran an experiment on this one because we were Scott was teaching a class for mountain goat and We thought maybe we'll just see what the class thinks so we pulled the class to see what topic do you want us to talk about and We thought we'd just go with the winner the winner that came out of that class was how to get buy-in How do you get buy-in in a? move from a non-scrum place to a Scrum kind of way of working. How do you get buy-in in the organization and buy-in from others? So when I was thinking about this as a topic, I think the first thing that popped in my head Scott about this was What do we mean by buy-in? So what does that mean to you? Scott Dunn (01:33) Right. So sometimes what I'm hearing is people saying like, buy in, you know, they, I would hear a common complaint, like they don't get it. They don't understand. don't, for me, buy in isn't that they need to understand agile or scrum and these types of things and how it works. Buy in is they get, they give their support kind of regardless. So my favorite example of that is walking into, this is a multi vendor effort we're doing on a Salesforce implementation. And we'd asked for the VP of the whole thing to come down and say some words before we had our first retrospective. You can imagine it's going to be kind of heated with different vendors trying to make each other look bad or whatever. And he'd said, yes. So we're coming down into this, you know, big high stakes meeting. And I just remember him saying, you know, I'm so excited to be doing this for you all. It's great. And he kind of falls in and looks at me says, what am I doing again? Cause he didn't, he didn't know, he didn't know what a retrospective was. He just knew he was asked to come and do something around that. And to me, Brian, Brian Milner (02:21) Ha Scott Dunn (02:28) That's fine. He's showing up. He's letting everyone know this way of working is important. It's important to me. It's important to success. And he probably couldn't tell you any of the meetings or artifacts or anything in scrum, right? But that's still what we need. Brian Milner (02:39) So. Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it because I think a lot of people sometimes think of buy-in, like everyone's clapping and waving scrum flags around and all that stuff. And I don't think that's really buy-in. I think it's just the willingness to honestly try it, to give it a shot and be open about what would work and what doesn't work. The opposite of that is the resistance, know, of just being resistant to it and saying, I'm gonna put up hurdles and walls in the way of this being successful. That's, think, what needs to be avoided. Scott Dunn (03:18) Right, right. think that some of what was helped is to give them the, for me, the mindset of their buy-in isn't about doing things right. They're not saying, we're really wanted. We really want a new process. We were getting asked to come in because they're not getting the results they want. So buy-in for me from their perspective is how to help get the results that they're looking for. And they'll support us to get those results. So I don't talk to them about some of the aspects of an empirical process or any of that. I sort of say, you in order to get things faster or in order to improve quality, right? And that's how they get behind that. I think sometimes people are preaching some of the process part, even if they could understand that's not really what they're about. But I think they even struggle to understand what we're talking about. So yeah, it's hard for them to get behind and support us when they're not tracking. They simply know there's a pain point we're having. Can we talk about that and how to get what we need and what do you need from me to get that? Great. But I think we We can do ourselves a favor by helping point to the same target, make sure we're aligned with the same target they want. And maybe they'll give us more support if they feel like, yeah, you're tracking with me. I want to come in talk about, you know, more collaboration. Like we already have enough meetings. That's what, that's what I heard. Right. But I'll come and talk about faster time to market. Well, yeah, now they're interested in talking about what they need to do, you know, that I'm asking them to get behind that. I think that's fair. Brian Milner (04:28) Right. Yeah, I think there's also an element there, because I know we're both kind of fans of and users of kind of the path to agility framework from our friend David Hawks. And I love the part of that that's trying to establish the motivation, the purpose from the outset to try to say, What's the thing we hope to get out of this? And I think that's really crucial in getting buy-in that you can't just tell people, hey, we're gonna be a Scrum organization now. Why? Because I tell you that's what we're gonna do, because we're gonna check off the box and say that we're now Scrum. That's not motivating to anyone. if I can say, no, we're gonna... go through this change because here's the end result. Here's what we're trying to get to. Here's what we think will be better. If I can lay that out, then I've got a purpose behind it. And now I have motivation to go forward with this difficult change and learning what's expected of me and all that stuff. But if that's not done, I feel like that's a crucial misstep in that. Scott Dunn (05:44) Yeah, I wanted to add to that, that that point about the clarity of the goals is really something that has sticking power. And we had a client, I came and was working with him this year that he had remembered from the last year as the CTO. He's remembering from last year that we had done that same exercise or what are the goals that leadership has. And he remembered it was quality and customer satisfaction. That had been over a year since we had done that, but that not only stuck with him, but we came back to the group and kind of had a fun poll. Like, everyone remember? They remembered. And so every time we're having a decision we're trying to make about should it be this way or that way on the process, the different, were doing the race, the matrix work, et cetera, people kept coming back to, well, is that going to help us in terms of quality? Is that going to help us in terms of customer staff? We're not going into the nuts and bolts of Scrum or these other approaches. It's simply what's the business goal. will that help us hit the goal? And when the leader hears you using their language that they get, like that's my goal, they're feeling like, okay, whatever you need to do, sounds like you understand what I'm after, right? It's really powerful. But I like that you mentioned that, because when we go through that exercise, always super clear, we don't get confused. Times when we lead with, especially on the executives trying to lead with explaining Scrum, you can tell sometimes they're not really tracking or they're following along, okay, so what's the point? Brian Milner (06:59) Yeah. Scott Dunn (06:59) Yeah, you start off with what's their goals. They're like, great, this is exactly what I want to talk about. And then, Hey, you're not doing the things you need to do to hit those goals. Oh, okay. What are they? I mean, I remember one time a couple of years back, literally when the coach was presenting the results of that assessment towards their goals, they cut them off in the middle of his presentation. Just says, well, why, why is it, you why is that red? Why are we not hitting the goal? What do need to do? And they just started solving the problem right then he couldn't even finish his presentation. Talk about getting support. And he had been there six years saying, Brian Milner (07:23) Wow. Scott Dunn (07:27) Scott, they're not gonna buy into doing this transformation team and the scrum work. He couldn't even finish, I think, a couple of slides and they gave him everything he wanted, right? Powerful, powerful. Brian Milner (07:36) Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I also think one of the reasons that there's, you know, and that kind of parallels it. One of the reasons there's a lack of buy-in in general is that it's sort of targeted to just one area. You know, like this is a team thing. The teams are going to get trained, but the leaders have no idea really what's going on. They're kind of separated off from this. And I think that's a big part of the problem as well is you get buy-in when they see the leaders have bought in. So are the leaders bought in? Are the leaders on board with this? If they're not, then the rest of the group isn't going to be bought in either. Scott Dunn (08:18) People are smart. They're watching which way the wind's blowing. to be honest, Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I tell people, I don't even care if they genuinely believe in that or not. If they're getting behind it because that's the way the politics are going, hey, they're getting out of the way. We're getting things done. Fine by me. Right. So partly when we're getting that by now, so make sure leaders, are you communicating this clearly? Because some of your people are either not on board or they're kind of waiting to see, this a fad or is this going to blow over? I need you to really communicate that clearly, et cetera, to see if people are get on board with that or not. Or, and on the other side, if I feel like some of these folks are not on board and I do feel like I have leadership support, I need to escalate that pretty quickly and make sure you understand, know, because they might get mad at you or me for talking about scrum and changing things. I'm like, I didn't knock down the door and come in myself. I was asked to come in here by someone who has authority. So maybe you need to clarify that with them, whether we're doing this or not. But don't get mad at me. Brian Milner (09:04) Right. Scott Dunn (09:11) So I will check them on that and clarify with the leadership to say, let's make sure your people are in alignment as well. If we do have that buy-in for sure. Brian Milner (09:20) Yeah. I saw another kind of quote about this that really got my brain working a little bit. Cause it was talking about the cost of fake buy-in and it was, it was kind of saying, you know, performative buy-in might actually, you know, it was asking the question, is performative buy-in worse than just outright resistance? And I don't know. Let me ask you that. What do you think? Do you think performative buy-in is worse than just someone who's resistant? Scott Dunn (09:28) Interesting. Yeah. As someone that just gave an example of performative buy-in. So if you would ask me a week ago, I might have gave a different answer, but someone was talking about this is a wildly different aspect of this, but you did ask me to join. So you get what you get. ⁓ They're talking about the difference of discrimination in the US versus South Africa. And they said, what's the difference? And they said in South Africa, it was blatant. no, you're a person of color. You cannot buy property here. That's how it is. Here, it's more like Brian Milner (09:59) You Scott Dunn (10:14) Yeah, we're looking at your loan application and I don't know if you can buy in this way. So it's subtle. And this person actually said, I'll take the outright blatant discrimination of South Africa, where at least you know what the issue is versus the subtle one. So maybe to that point with what you're saying, maybe it is better to have outright resistance and then say, well, at least I know who's on board or not. Rather than the person says they're on board, but every time they're in a meeting, they come out meeting and we don't get the decisions made we need. That's funny. Brian Milner (10:39) Yeah. Yeah. When I read this and started to think about it, I kind of had that same conclusion that like when someone's being outright resistant, yeah, it's an obstacle, but it's honest. And, you know, I'd rather have the honesty because they're trying to, they're still acting their way because they have a belief that their way is the right way to do it. And so they're throwing up a resistance because they're honestly resistant to it. Whereas someone who just sort of nods in meetings and claps along and, know, oh yeah, sure, great. But then they're kind of in the quiet, you know, behind the scenes and the hallway conversations. That's insidious. That's something that I can't really deal with. And it's like, you know, let's have the discussion. Let's talk about it. And, you know, if you win, then great. Why not have the courage to just have the conversation and see which idea wins? Scott Dunn (11:39) Right. on that note, think for everyone's sake, Brian, if we could be honest for a moment, not that we haven't been honest in these other podcasts, but in this, in this moment, we're really going to be honest. Would you, would, do you feel at times that our culture, our company cultures actually teach people to do just what you said to not be honest, but then like be like, you know, politically savvy, don't say what you really think, but then you're going to kind of be subversive and undermine that thing. And I've dealt with that so many times, I'll show up to a meeting like, I would have swore we were on board. had that one-on-one and now you're not saying in the meeting that you go on board with that. So people might've gotten coached. It's actually not safe to be honest and have good clear spirited debate because there's a price to pay if they do that. And they maybe 10 years in corporate can kind of teach you don't be honest or they're trying to read the tea leaves about what you think it's going to be. And so, yeah, I definitely would rather take it. Maybe it's part of the mindset of trying to really check, you know, where people are at. If I go back to my early days of coaching, those one-on-ones of having the level of honesty to really know where people are at. That was, think, some of the power. And I think some of that came from genuinely caring about the people, wanting them to succeed, wanting them win, even if it wasn't going to be at this company because of all the change or whatever. I did feel people felt like I really was open and honest with them and transparent and had their back. I would hear some real things about how they really felt because they didn't feel like there was a payback for that. And that allowed me to actually say, well, you know what, if you're really not on board, let's see what we can do as far as another opportunity. Maybe it's a positional switch we can do or whatever that was. Because I mean, this did affect people's jobs in some ways. And I think maybe if I don't have those one-on-ones, they're probably just going to give lip service because they don't know if anyone there really has their back in a turbulent time of change. AI is a great example of that, right? Hey, we want to move forward with AI. Well, what's the impact of my job if we do? But no one's really talking about that, right? It's all positive and all that. So I think people are trying to read that too. But you bring up a good point. I think I would take the direct as long as they feel like they can safely be open and honest. Brian Milner (13:31) Yeah. Yeah, well, even that question, right? What effect is AI gonna have on my job? And the honest answer I think that someone has to give right now is, don't know. I feel like I understand what it is today, but I don't know that that's gonna be the same way tomorrow because this technology changes so fast, so I can't promise anything. But here's what it is today and this is the paradigm we're trying to live in. So I think that there's an honesty component there that you've got a mirror to say, hey, I'm going to be honest with you. You be honest with me about this. And we'll be upfront with each other as we make our way through this. yeah, so yeah, think that kind of being honest and taking that approach, I think, is the right way to go. I also think that being kind of a reverting back before you get into things like, here's what a Scrum Master is, here's what a product owner is. You've got to start with the basics and mindset kind of culture things. You have to start with transparency, inspection, adaptation. That's really the way to go. And if we buy into those sorts of things initially, then we can start to say, well, here's a practice that supports that. Now you understand why we're doing this practice because it does this thing. Without it, it's just sort of one of those things of do as I tell you, you know, and that doesn't get buy-in. We've got to see the why behind it. Scott Dunn (14:48) Yes. Yeah, I think so. That's a great point. I was just making a note because sometimes we come in about agile. Some of the folks when I'm sharing this, it's maybe is new to them that I try to really present it. I want what you want. So even down to the words and then I kind of map back to that. So for example, if if we have quality problems now, I might believe in say an agile practice like mob programming, but I don't want to bring up like, hey, we should try mobbing. because it's cool or because you know, whatever, they don't care about that. But oh, they have a quality concern. Hey, boss, I've been thinking about, you know, these quality issues. I got an idea that I think it really could help with quality. But if I was to ask you, Brian, is is Bobby gonna, does Bobby help with quality? Does Bobby help me with, you know, cross training and tearing down knowledge silos and sharing learning? And I think, well, it does a lot of things, I pitch it towards what management wants. So agile as a means to an end. So I want what you want. And if I can't get that clarity that I want what you want, I need to be listening more because if I feel like I come to them talking, I've seen from my own experience, I come talking about better collaboration. That's not what's on their mind. I'm literally losing credit with them because they're like, why are you bringing this up? Like this isn't even our concern right now. Right. So I'm losing trust. I'm losing political capital. So I listen intently what their concerns are, the things I think that are important or that can get that. Then I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to pitch it in that language even like, you know, that what these are the things that would help on. I want what you want. Brian Milner (16:00) Yeah. Scott Dunn (16:18) the sport, I'll even research stuff to find out. So maybe I gave an example recently, when I was a manager for a web development, team that they wanted bigger monitors, of course, and I couldn't get approval for the bigger monitors. so I went and researched, I knew that always we had pressure to deliver more. I researched until I found somewhere someone had to study the show that larger monitors help productivity. And then I brought that to him and like, Hey, I'm looking for ways to improve the team productivity. I think I found something. What is it Scott? Brian Milner (16:30) Mm-hmm. Scott Dunn (16:46) Well, larger monitors, you can tell us, Smollick, really? You've been asking for this for months. I said, no, there's a study that proves it. Now he approved it right then. But partly I wonder, Brian, is I was also giving him air cover for when he gets flack from the other departments. Why does Scott's team get the special monitors? Well, it improves productivity. And right. He's got a reason now. Otherwise, it looks like maybe he's just playing favorites or something else. Right. We're all watching costs. So I will do the research to say, hey, I want what you want. I'll go and I'll go and dig it up. Brian Milner (17:04) Yeah. Scott Dunn (17:13) Someone somewhere must've said it's gonna help. So I'll bring that to them. It ⁓ worked. Brian Milner (17:17) Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. you're giving him the why behind it. You're telling him, hey, here's something that's in. It's the old outcome argument that the outcome from having larger monitors is this, that we have this productivity. I know you want greater productivity, so here's a means to do that. And I think that's kind of the way that this, you in a nutshell, what we're trying to say here is, you know, I can't go into a company, your boss comes into your company tomorrow and says, hey everyone, we're switching to pens that write in green ink, because we're a green ink company. We just, we want to be known as the green ink company from now on, because it's better. So everyone, make sure you switch to green ink. I mean, they do it. But there's a difference between compliance and real commitment. ⁓ And that's the difference, I think, is, all right, you wanted to switch to green ink, but why? What's the point behind it? I'll do it, but I'll be committed to it if you tell me, well, studies show that when people read in green ink. I mean, that kind of thing can make an impact. But otherwise, it's like you're Scott Dunn (18:08) Yes. ⁓ Absolutely. Brian Milner (18:31) It's almost like an insult to the intelligence of someone, you know, to say, we're going to do this crazy new thing called a standup, you know, or daily scrum or whatever. And well, why are we doing that? I don't know. Cause right. That they tell us that's what we're supposed to do. Well, we have to stand up for a meeting. Why are we standing up? Why aren't we just sitting down? It's more comfortable. I don't know, but that's what you do in a daily scrum is you stand up. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's that kind of a thing that I think. Scott Dunn (18:34) yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Brian Milner (18:58) if you don't lay the groundwork of here's why, then they're gonna just react with the way that you would switch to green ink. ⁓ Scott Dunn (19:05) I love that example. love that. And we've all been there, right? When someone says, why would we do this? I'm like, I actually don't know. It's a terrible feeling. I don't know. We go through all this effort to do just that. And you mentioned that compliance, compliance will never have their heart and soul and energy into this. So think that that's a big deal for them as well. When leaders are, we had something happen where it's a large financial institution and their data engineering group. Brian Milner (19:11) You're right. Yeah. Scott Dunn (19:33) You're like, yeah, AI is not really, you know, for us, not important to us. Which is interesting, right? Then the next week, like that, the head of that group, their boss's boss says, we need to be using, AI. Well, guess who makes it announced at the very next week. We need to get going with AI, So some of this is like, look, if they're pushing those things, we also want to make sure that they're in a position to look good for their bosses, those types of things. Right? So one, you know, giving them air cover, but two, listen to the winds of those things. If we make them successful, I mean, this is old school, right? Make your boss look good. My goodness. If they feel like that's happening, then you're going to get a lot more support. And this is a good example of a radical change for a whole data engineering team, just because the boss's boss says so. So now we're going to do it. I think looking for even those opportunities and following through on what that might be bringing them ideas that make them look good and generating that as well. I love the green ink one. just now it makes me want to be that we're the green ink company. You're we're going to be known for this. Brian Milner (20:23) Yeah. Scott Dunn (20:29) ⁓ But why? Brian Milner (20:30) Yeah. I think it's also kind of important that you acknowledge that there is an emotional impact here. And this gets into kind of the idea of the whole Satir model of change and that kind of thing. And so I think maybe part of the equation of getting buy-in is really comprehending and understanding that you're not going to get buy-in right away. ⁓ Scott Dunn (20:56) Hmm. Brian Milner (20:57) you know, there's going to be chaos and resistance. There's going to be a point where people are going to be resistant to it. And if you do the rest of it well, then that they'll turn that corner. But what makes them turn that corner is, is that they're connected to the purpose behind it. And so if you're, if you're going to try to implement this, if you're to try to do a change, and just expect it's gonna be, know, hunky dory from day one, you're fooling yourself. Humans don't take to change well. It's got an emotional aspect to it. I love the way David Hawks used to always say this. You know, I knew how to be a hero the old way, and I have no idea how to be a hero in this new thing. So I don't feel comfortable with this change because I don't know how to win. Scott Dunn (21:41) So true. Brian Milner (21:47) And I think that is a really accurate reflection of that emotional kind of impact of it. Everyone wants to do their job well and be seen as a smart person at work and everything else. And I knew how to do that before, but now I don't know how. And so I'm afraid I'm gonna look bad. Scott Dunn (22:02) Right? And I think that lack of awareness or knowledge is some of the things that we're asking them to do. Like you said, uncomfortable or new doesn't feel good. And we kind of think that, oh, if I don't feel good, this must be bad. It's just uncomfortable. But I think I love what you're saying. We can map it out and say, by the way, it's going to look like this as we go through that. And that hero part, a lot of our management, like 90 % of the management is going to be in that, you what we call expert or achiever. Like they're the smartest ones in the room, or they're ones that coordinate everything and they know who to talk to. you're trying to introduce something to someone who thinks they already know all the things. So how we're presenting that to them, including the fact that they're human too, right? They're gonna feel some things and maybe uncomfortable. It wouldn't hurt to explain a bit more, even if they're not gonna necessarily admit it, but like, hey, it's gonna feel different. The people might push back on this. So even when you're first beginning that, it reminded me of how I just knew I'd need to ask my boss like five times. Look, lots of people are asking him for stuff. They're partly just going by the simplest way of Who keeps coming to my office the most? And maybe on time five, like, wow, Scott, this sounds like a problem. Well, yeah, I've been here five times. Because they're kind of waiting, like, is it really a problem or do you just come in once or twice? So repeating that and then maybe framing it to say, and doing the change looks like this and that, giving them information so they don't have to admit that they don't know if they're priding themselves on knowing all the things. I really think that's a great addition to that. The Satir change model, knowing that it's going to get uncomfortable. I've seen execs jettison this just because people are bothered or upset or they're uncomfortable. So therefore this must be a bad idea. So I think we can do ourselves a favor by explaining a little bit like it's going to look like this moving forward as far as their support. Some people may not like it and here's why, but here's how I would answer those people. Like you're literally feeding them the responses. And I'll also do the get behind the expert and say, well, this is, this is what Harvard business review says, or this is what this expert says. You might be surprised because Again, back to them being experts, if you ask them what they think they know about Agile, I might have mentioned before, they score themselves on average about 8.5 out of 10. But their people would score them about 4.5 out of 10, right? It was what I've seen when I did the study, the surveys. So they think they know, so they're not gonna admit they don't know, but go ahead and give them the information they wish. If you know they don't know, I like what you're saying, kind of shrink the chain so they can understand, it's gonna look like this and feel like this. People might ask this way. But here's how I'd respond to them. know, remember this is where, you know, 90 % of the companies are doing X, Y, and Z. So they have backing. They can answer to the people. We kind of set them up for success. Otherwise that satiric change curve is going to hit them. They won't have answers. That feels really awkward. This must be a bad idea. And they're going to undo what you just asked for. Right. I've seen that happen. You just got approval and then a week or two later it got put on hold or undone. Brian Milner (24:44) Yeah, no, I agree. one of the areas, one of the other kind of things that I found in thinking about this in advance was a quote that was from the five dysfunctions of a team book that we all talk about quite a bit. But there's a quote from that that says, people don't weigh in, they won't buy in. And I love that. And I thought, you know, that really is a good point that there, it's not about Scott Dunn (25:00) Woo! Brian Milner (25:08) people need to feel like they're co-creating with you. And to do that, you need to be able to listen to them. If they don't feel like they have a voice, mean, put yourself in their shoes. If you felt like there was a big change happening and you had no say in it, that would feel pretty oppressive. But if they felt like they're building the change with you, then I think then that's what kind of can turn people around and say, no, I have a say in this, I'm a part of this. and I get to shape a little bit about what this is going to look like. They're going to shape it a lot. I mean, that's part of just the Azure way of working is that, hey, we're going to individualize this for this company, for this team. It has to fit here. And the more we can help people see, no, you're a co-creator in this. You're not just being told, but you're going to shape this with us. Scott Dunn (25:54) Right? Even with the leadership, I mean, it's easy. think everyone listening would agree. If you look at the common leaders, that's, even the, let's say director level and above personality types, right? For, for disc, it's going to be a high D for a strange pattern would be like command, um, computing values framework. They're going to be blue, get results, make it happen. But we need it to be, we need to be their decision for some of these folks. So when I would come to one of my bosses and say, I think we should do X every time he'd say like, yeah, let me think about. I'll get back to you. I kept thinking like, I don't understand because these are my people. I thought you trusted me. I realized, it has to be his decision. So part of what you're saying is invite him into the solution. So then I'd say, hey, we've got three options, good, better, best. What do you think we should do? Or I'd say, hey, I've done all the research, option A looks great, option B looks terrible. What do you think we should do? I mean, I try to simplify it. I tried to make it obvious, but I couldn't tell him I need to do X or we need this from you. It needed to be his input and to decide. Brian Milner (26:44) Right. Scott Dunn (26:51) once I framed it that way, he agreed every single time. I simply frame it, put it right in front of him so it's kind of an obvious decision, but I had to let him have that voice to decide. I'm really glad you brought that up. That one literally went from zero to 100 % if I changed my approach of how I had addressed it to let him be the one to decide and weigh in on that. Or even pitch it as a sales. Hey, I think it'd be great to move forward. What would that look like to you? Well, now he's talking about moving that change forward. without even realizing it, because you said to move forward, what would we need to do? And now he is co-creating, but it's already a yes, right? But by default, a little bit of sales, a little bit of sales effort there. Brian Milner (27:24) Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good example. And that's a good example, I think for like the scrum masters listening and other people out here that are, feel like, you know, I'm not the leader in the organization. I'm not way up here and I can't, you know, have my decisions trickle down to other people, but, you know, kind of the, influencing up kind of mentality there. Yeah. It might sound like a little bit of a trick, but you know, if you can help. the boss co-create with you, right? Here's the problem. I've done some research. Here's some solutions. How would this look for you? Or what do you think of these options? Which one do you think sounds best? If I'm a boss and someone comes to me and says that I've researched this, here's the solutions that are possible. Which one do you think sounds best? That's really a service to me because you've just done a lot of work for me and I know that I'm doing my job by making the decision, but you've presented it and now I don't have to do anything but make the call. Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:24) Yeah, yeah. Simplify the decision-making or frame the decision-making is, think we might actually be kind of, I don't want to say teasing. I just hear some feedback from people at times like, leadership's was like, bright, shiny squirrel, right? And they get frustrated. But in some ways I'm thinking, well, at least someone in the org is decisive. I'll take that. But we can help them leverage that decisive trait they have. Brian Milner (28:43) Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:48) But for the good, instead of these random crazy things, you know, when the leader's like, I love Agile, I can change my mind all the time. We can, we can, we can guide them to better decision-making too. I love the influence both up and down what you're saying the Scrum Master can do. I think we miss, that we all have that ability to try to influence decision-making and shape some of this. Maybe there's more agency than we realized, I think for some of these folks, Scrum Masters, product owners, cetera, that you might be surprised. Like run an experiment, try some of these things out that we're talking about and see for yourself. I mean, all these personality types are different and your orgs are different. I totally understand that. Do something, inspect and adapt and see what you get. might, cause once you strike gold, you're like, you know, you're set on getting influence and buy-in from folks. It's really powerful network. Cause we don't need to give you a title or change the org chart in order to have results happen with you involved if you're that kind of a person. And I think you can really write your ticket in your career if you're able to do that soft skill of influence and buy-in up and down. It's great. Brian Milner (29:43) Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, I hope that for at least the people that were in your class, this is is hit it right on the nail on the head for what it is they were they were thinking this would be about. But I think this is good. I think this is a good conversation and it's important, I think at all levels, because there's you know, this this affects us whether we're doing a massive transformation in an organization or Scott Dunn (29:51) Yeah. Brian Milner (30:06) We're just trying to influence up a tiny bit, you know, the food chain. Scott Dunn (30:10) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I hope that for the folks who were in that class, you better let us know if that was it. If anyone else is interested in other things, absolutely. We love hearing what your what those topics would be and bring on the right people. I will say that Brian, you brought in so many different voices. It's really, really great. So again, influence us. You can practice what we're talking about by putting those ideas up there. Other folks that we'd love to hear, because I love the the slated speakers you brought in. Brian's been really awesome. Thanks for this opportunity. Brian Milner (30:34) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming on again, Scott.

Derick Van Ness of Big Life Financial returns to the podcast to discuss with Kiera the new realities of the recently passed One Big Beautiful Bill — and how dentists can capitalize on the impacts. They discuss bonus depreciation, research and development credits, and more. Further, there's an opportunity for DAT listeners at biglifefinancial.com/DAT, where you can learn if you're overpaying on your taxes and what new opportunities exist. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I'm excited to welcome back a popular guest. He and I have chatted multiple times. We've gone around and around on different topics of how to help dentists build more wealth. So Derick, ⁓ with Big Life Financial, we talked about our research and development credits. Today we're going to be talking about this big, beautiful tax bill, how it's going to impact dentists, how it's going to impact building wealth. I do think it also impacts team members. So Derick, welcome back to the show. How are you today?   Derick Van Ness (00:29) I'm great, Kiera. I really appreciate you bringing me on the show again. It's always fun to talk.   Kiera Dent (00:34) Of course, we all know that I love wealth strategies. love ⁓ it takes time like you and I were talking about pre show. ⁓ I think it's something to educate ourselves on and to be around really smart people and to constantly be looking at different things like I know hot in the real estate world right now and with buying businesses and buying practices, the big beautiful tax bill is actually great for the bonus depreciation coming in. So just like educating ourselves and that's what I wanted today to be.   not getting high into politics. These are bills that are into place ⁓ and how to take advantage of them, how to maximize them. Derick, you work with a ton of dentists. So Derick, for those who don't know, you kind of give a little bit background on how you and I even got connected, how you got into dentistry, ⁓ how does Big Life Financial play into this. We have a lot of mutual clients together. So just kind of give people a background on who you are and how you got to the dental space.   Derick Van Ness (01:26) Absolutely, you know, I started out back in like 2010 2009 2010 helping small business owners with taxes and financial strategy I was working for another firm at the time and I had been a house flipper and if for those of you who remember 2008 wasn't so good if you're a house flipper, right and When that whole thing fell apart kind of fell in my head I took a lot of the skills that I had and a friend of mine hired me to help   Kiera Dent (01:46) It is not.   Derick Van Ness (01:55) small business owners with taxes and financial and business strategy. ⁓ Working with them, I had a chance to work with about 1,500 business owners over seven years. And then eventually went out and started doing my own thing because there were some different things that I wanted to do that they didn't offer. ⁓ essentially, in that time, I worked with a lot of dentists and a lot of doctors. ⁓ And so I kind of stayed in that arena, which led me to ⁓ meeting you, Kiera.   through Mark over at DSI and all the stuff that I'd done with him and then found you guys and just love what you guys do with helping people to build their teams. Cause I'm such a huge advocate of how important that is to have the right team to run your practice, right? Especially if you're going to have multiple practices, it just can't be about you. And so it was just kind of a natural fit. And like you said, you, you definitely love financial strategies. So.   We got into it, we talked about a bunch of different things, had a chance to work together. Like you said, have shared a lot of clients along the way, but it just seems like dentists have a lot of the problems that we solve, which is they pay a of taxes, they make good money, and most of them didn't get an MBA in college to understand how business and finances work. They've had to learn along the way. And so we see ourselves as part of that process of helping dentists become.   better business owners, better entrepreneurs, and honestly create freedom in their life instead of just having a business that runs them, because it's easy to have that happen in dentistry. So that's sort of how we got connected. I don't know, over the last, since whatever 2008, 2009 was, last 15 plus years, I've probably worked with somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 business owners. I would say a good chunk of those have been dentists. So that's how we ended up together.   Kiera Dent (03:48) Yeah.   I love the journey. love hearing what you've done. I also agree on like building wealth. And I think going through dental school, working at the dental college, dentists are coming out with, you know, upwards of 500, 600, 700, $800,000 in debt somewhere up towards that upper million. Midwestern was a very expensive school. looking at that and then watching offices and I remember the first dentist that I worked with and we were partners. We, called her 2.5 because we were 2.5 million debt.   Derick Van Ness (04:03) Cheers.   Kiera Dent (04:18) was like, you better straighten that spine 2.5. Like we need that spine for a long time. But it was something where I realized like, that's a substantial amount of debt. One to walk out of school with two you buy a practice on top of that and then you want to try and like even remotely live your own personal life. It just felt like the odds are possibly stacked not in a dentist favor. I've had several dentists where this is the case where they're multimillion in debt, trying to get these practices off the ground. And so really coming up with   Derick Van Ness (04:43) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (04:47) like yes, long-term, if they make it, awesome. Hopefully it will pay off for them. But what are maybe some strategies and tips that they can do now? I think like so many of us look at real estate and wish that we would have gotten in at the 2008 because now you're selling them out or even in 2020. And so it's like, what can people do now, even if they didn't maximize or we didn't buy practices back in the day when they were so cheap, they were pennies on the dollar. What things can we do now to maximize? I was even talking to this girl the other day.   And she's like, yeah, my baby was born on New Year's Eve. And I was like, wow, talk about a great tax write-off. And she's like, I didn't even know that that was a tax write-off. I didn't even know the benefits of things. And so I feel like just so many little pieces that could make us smarter business owners to, I'm here, I love living in the United States. I love paying taxes for the country that we get to live in. I love the opportunity that we have to be business owners. With that said, I also think it's smart for us to be very wise stewards over our money to figure out different strategies.   And no, it's not sexy. No, it's not fun. A lot of it is just like save, like invest, do the things you're supposed to do. And it's going to be part of what is it? Like the eighth wonder of the world of compound interest. Like there are other pieces, but Derick, like, let's talk about this big, beautiful tax bill. How does this work? How does this impact business owners? What are some of the benefits we can take care of? Now we're talking in 2025, things will change and shift as the landscape shifts, but knowing that's in place, what are some of the things dentists owners can do now?   to maximize that coming out.   Derick Van Ness (06:18) Yeah, you bring up a good point, Kiera. You know, it's not that this stuff happens overnight, but it is, it's systemic, right? You're doing it day in and day out. And tax is one of those things, whether you like it or not, you have to file them every year. And I'm not going to lie to you, that's part of what I like about being in the tax world is people have to do it every year. It's a pretty good business model that way, right?   Kiera Dent (06:30) Right.   I   was gonna say you've got the reoccurring opportunities because it has to happen every year just like dentists have profis every six months. I mean it's a great built-in business. mean kudos to you. I don't enjoy it but it is a necessary evil to be done.   Derick Van Ness (06:52) I totally get that. If you would have told me you're going to work in taxes even 15 years ago when I first got into it, I would have said absolutely not not interested. But what I can tell you is every dollar you make in taxes is the same as a new dollar you make in your business. Right. But you don't have to have employees and risk and additional insurance and additional equipment and all this other stuff. So it really is pure profit when you can reduce your taxes. So   even a small amount of tax strategy can go a very long way in increasing what you get in the bottom line, right? And if you could just take a lot of dentists across the country, they're in the 40 % tax bracket, maybe a little higher or lower depending on your state, but somewhere in that range, if you could even lower that by 10%, that's keeping an additional 10 % of your income. That's a lot of extra money for people to be able to save and put to work without having to go do more risk and...   buy a bigger building and do a build out and deal with more personalities in the office because all of those things are variables, right? So I see it as a pure profit machine if you get it right. And so I've chosen to think it that way because I spend so much time in it, but it really does come down to just keeping a lot more of the money you make. And it's a very potent way to do it because honestly, with 10 to 15 hours a year, so think of that as like one hour a month.   you can really add a lot to the bottom line of what you get to keep. In some cases, we can cut taxes almost in half for high, high income earners. So it's a pretty big deal.   Kiera Dent (08:25) Well, and as you said that I think it's a big deal for today because yes to have that back to you is great. But like we talked about compounding, compounding until you've experienced compounding seems like not real. Just like I think when like you have bought your first house and it's like, how am I ever supposed to do this and make money on it until you bought your first practice? A lot of those things I think feel ⁓ arbitrary, they feel false. And then once you get into the compounding world and you're like, my gosh, like   we're making money without having to do anything. It's like, yeah, I could save on my taxes in a legal, ethical way, have more money at the end of the year that I could then put towards this, like you said, make it work for me. Well, now that it's just duplicating, it's multiplying, it's replicating, those things to me are things I get excited about. Those are things that I look for, because I don't think there's a lot of money.   I call it the money making machine. What things can we put into your money making machine to where it's working for you day in, day out without you having to do any extra work? I think all of us check yes, let's say yes to that. So Derick, let's talk about how we can create more of these money making machines, putting our money to work for us rather than constantly trying to chase the money dream to where at the end of our careers and even during our careers, we're living the lives that we wanted to get to when we first started out into these careers.   Derick Van Ness (09:29) Yep.   Yeah. And I can tell you guys this, if you only walk away with one thing, it's the idea if you want to build wealth, you need to create systematic savings, right? Systematize putting money aside, whether that's actually savings account or investing or however, but just getting money out of the spending cycle and into the building cycle. And it's like watching your child, right? Like in the beginning, kids grow and it's like day to day, you don't see it, but year to year,   it starts to make a bigger and bigger and bigger difference. And then, you know, when they're teenagers, you're just like, what's happening, right? So it's the same kind of thing with your money. In the beginning, if you're just watching a day to day, you don't really see the growth. You have to trust the process, right? But the biggest thing you can do is put that on autopilot, because if you have to automatically go into your bank account every month and move money over or every year, move money over, it's much harder. And like writing,   Kiera Dent (10:28) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (10:42) 25, 50, 100, $200,000 checks feels hard. Setting aside 2,000, 3,000, 5,000, $10,000 a month, and then you cut that in half per pay period, and all of a sudden it gets a lot easier. It's like, oh yeah, $1,000 a pay period, not that big a deal. Much easier than writing a $25,000 check, right? Or two or $3,000 per pay period. It really does add up. And that's where the tax piece comes in is, in many cases, it's like found money. I try to teach our clients to...   Kiera Dent (10:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (11:11) save like you're going to pay full blast on taxes. And then when we do the tax strategy, all this money is left over. And so it feels like extra money, and then you can put it to work, right? And that's where you do get to play with some bigger chunks. ⁓ But really, it's that habit of automating, setting money aside. If you can just only take one thing from this, it's that. And taxes can create a huge amount of that for you along the way. So let's talk about the tax bill, right?   Kiera Dent (11:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah,   let's talk about it. And I just want to highlight on that, Derick, of I was talking to a CPA the other day on the podcast and he talked about how like there's a different psychology of business owners. ⁓ We go from getting a W-2 paycheck that we're used to being able to spend all of it because taxes have already been taken out to them becoming business owners and not having taxes automatically taken from that and needing to be super disciplined on saving. And so I agree with you. And when I realized like,   I got so annoyed when I'm like, great, so now I never get a refund check ever again in taxes. I was like, no, actually it's actually so much better now than it ever was. Because if I just set it aside, I'm like, taxes are pretty simple. I guess there's some nuances to them, but it's pretty much like whatever tax bracket you are, take your profit at the end of the month, set that aside. And lo and behold, if you do the tax planning strategy, like you said, usually I'm ending up with a pretty good substantial chunk at the end of the year that I count as my like quote unquote, like   the refund check or whatever. It's been so long since I've gotten one that I don't even know what it is. But it's awesome because then you have this huge lump of money because you've been saving it. You weren't expecting it. All your expenses in your life is taken care of to where now, like you said, it is really fun. Is that an investment? Is that buying something that I've always wanted to get? Is that real estate money? Because the amount of cash, if you are strategic in how you do it, is exponentially substantial.   It is truly life-changing. So I'm excited, Derick. Let's talk about the tax bill, but I will second you and ditto you and just say, yes, there's discipline to it, but that discipline equals so much freedom on the other side that just try it. Trust us on this. Save, learn to save on it and ⁓ be blown away at how much you're able to have at the end of the year if you do it really well.   Derick Van Ness (13:25) Yeah, I 100 % agree and I love your approach, Kiera. That's exactly what we try to teach with people. So let's talk about the tax bill, right? There's a ton of stuff that's in there that we're not going to touch on because like the child tax credit go up $200 a year. Yes. Is that going to move the needle for you as a business owner? Not really, right? Is there a little bit for senior tax relief in there where there's $6,000 of income that they don't pay taxes on? Yes. Does that really matter for you? Probably not, right? So we're going to...   Kiera Dent (13:33) Okay, let's talk.   Derick Van Ness (13:55) we're going to talk a little bit about a couple of key things that can really move the needle. One of them you alluded to, Kiera, that I think is really important is the idea of bonus depreciation, right? People who don't know what bonus depreciation is, it's when you buy certain types of equipment or real estate, you can take all the depreciation in the first year, right? And that can be ⁓ a huge chunk, especially when you combine it with something like cost segregation. For those of you who don't know what cost segregation is, the two really   Kiera Dent (14:04) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (14:24) work well together. So I think it's worth taking just a sec, even though it's not new, it really enhances this strategy. ⁓ Cost segregation is when you have a piece of real estate, you bring in an engineer, and there are companies that do this, right? So you don't have to know all this stuff. ⁓ But they come in, they reclassify as much of your building as they can as equipment. And so what you get to do is depreciate a portion of the building, the stuff that's equipment much more rapidly. So a lot of times five, seven or 15 years.   versus either 27 or 39 and a half years. So you get a lot more depreciation on the front end. It's not like you get more overall, but money today is worth a whole lot more than money 20 or 30 years from now. You can invest it and use it to grow your business, et cetera. But then when you add bonus depreciation to that, you can get a lot more of it in the first year. what this really means is if you're   Kiera Dent (15:06) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (15:21) buying the right kind of equipment or you're buying a building or you're doing big improvements, you can get a lot more depreciation and that depreciation can save you in taxes, right? And this is one that I feel like most CPAs kind of get bonus depreciation, but a lot of them don't bring in the cost segregation piece. So if you own a piece of real estate, especially if you bought it in the last few years and you haven't done a cost segregation study, this is something that you would have to know about because someone has to physically come to your building. If you haven't done one,   Kiera Dent (15:39) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (15:51) should talk to your CPA about it or talk to someone about it. I'm sure Kiera knows people, we know people, there are plenty of people out there who do it. But that's something worth looking at, especially if your building's worth, I would say, $250,000, $300,000, and you've had it less than five years and you haven't done this, yeah, it's totally worth looking at. It could be a real nice windfall. So that's a big one. It had been in place, then it started phasing out from 100 % to 80 % to 60%.   Kiera Dent (16:04) I   Derick Van Ness (16:20) but now we're back at 100%. So this is a big one, especially if you own your building or you're buying a lot of equipment. ⁓ Another really big one is the SALT tax. Now, people hear SALT tax and they're like, what? They're thinking of like the SPICE, right? SALT stands for state and local tax. And really to simplify this, and there's kind of a workaround in almost every state where you can do it as a pass-through setup. And essentially what that means is,   Kiera Dent (16:27) Mm-hmm.   Bye.   Derick Van Ness (16:49) If you pay all your state taxes before the end of the year, those state taxes become a write off for your federal taxes. Now this was in place up to $10,000. So if you were in a 40 % tax bracket, it could have saved you $4,000. Now it's up to 40,000, four zero, $40,000. So if you're making a lot of money or you're in a high tax state, you can pay those state taxes before the end of the year and it creates a federal tax write off.   And so like if you were in a, you know, paying in a 32 % tax bracket and you paid $40,000, it's going to save you, you know, between 12 and $13,000 in taxes that year, which is pretty significant for found money. All it has to be done is you have to pay those taxes and then your, your CPA or your tax pro has to claim that. Right. So that's another big one that got raised and you probably heard a lot about it in the news because   People were trying to get it raised higher and some people thought it should be lower. It really does favor business owners. It's not something a person who doesn't have a business can do. And that was part of the controversy, right? ⁓ But at the end of the day, it's law. So you should be taking full advantage of that.   Kiera Dent (18:03) I feel like that definitely impacts like the high state tax ⁓ states like California, New York, like some of those bigger ones, definitely because I live in Nevada, it's a no state income tax state. So if I understand correctly, Derick, and this is where I love bringing smart people on, the salt tax doesn't apply to me per se in Nevada, because we don't have state income tax. Is that correct? But in those higher ones, it definitely helps you out tremendously by being able to take those those credits and apply them.   Derick Van Ness (18:32) That is correct, yeah. And like another really high one is Oregon. They have quite high state tax, whereas Washington has none. So yeah, that doesn't apply to everybody. But if you're in a state that has even medium, like I'm in Utah, income tax there is right around 5 % for the state. It's still significant, right? You can still do up to the same amount. You'll just get there slower than if you're in California.   Kiera Dent (18:36) Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (19:00) Once again, just one of those things like you talked about, know, having kids or, you know, having the ADA like disability access to your building or a lot of these other things that like there are a bunch of little things, but they really do add up doing the Augusta rule. I'm sure you guys have talked about a million times and paying your kids properly. And we have a whole strategy of actually how to help people use tax strategy to pay for their kids college, which is a pretty cool one using some of that.   Kiera Dent (19:15) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (19:29) But those aren't part of the tax bill, so we won't dig into that today. ⁓   Kiera Dent (19:32) But they   are smart things to know because as you're listing it off, I think when someone's making, let's say your practice is doing a million, let's it's doing 2 million, 5 million, let's say you're at a 50 % overhead, let's just do 5 million, that's 2.5 mil. Not all of that's going to come to you as profit, but let's use like, it also could be coming to you as profit, even if it's in the form of distributions and different pieces. I'm like,   Derick Van Ness (19:42) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:55) on that 2.5, if that's your taxable income, now let's just do, let's say you're in the highest, like that would put you in the highest tax bracket. So we're at a 37%. Like that's almost a million dollars worth of tax money right there on 2.5. So I understand that say 12 grand doesn't seem like that much, but I'm like, but 12 grand is still going to chip down this tax bill. And then you do another 20 grand here, then you do another 15 grand here.   All of that does exponentially chip down and like the bonus appreciation. That's why I think Derick, you're talking like the $200 on a million of taxes, not really going to move the needle, but 12 grand, 15 grand. It's the stacking and being able to keep that money. You have to pay this tax no matter what. And why not like benefit and minimize and reduce it and keep that money. then even worst case scenario, you even go invest it or you put it somewhere like a high yield savings account, but still making 4 % for you.   that you wouldn't have been making so that money's working for you. I think it's a no brainer ⁓ no matter what tax bracket you're in just to see. But like I also think this is where I don't like to get lazy on my taxes like, is it really worth doing the Augustus roll? Yes, it is. Because like you said, every dollar saved today, if I could even take that 600 or that 2000 or that 12 grand, put it in right now, like go back to college. How many of us wish we would have invested at that point in time? 20 bucks when we were in college.   Derick Van Ness (21:02) You   Kiera Dent (21:19) into the stock market and what that would be worth today, I think that there's just value in being strategic and smart and this is how you build wealth. It's not sexy, but if you do it consistently, you will exponentially become wealthier much faster than otherwise. I think it's the fastest way to get to wealth long term because you've got a runway in front of you.   Derick Van Ness (21:38) Well, I'm going to throw something out here, Kiera, because I get to see behind the scenes, right? I work with a lot of successful dentists and dentists have a really good income. Dentists generally are not great at creating wealth. I'll just be totally honest with you. A lot of them, they make enough money that they, ⁓ they can spend and they have a good life and they're able to put some money away, but proportional to their income, a lot of them are not great savers because of exactly what you talked about. A lot of them make all this money, but they got to pay off a lot of debt.   Kiera Dent (21:42) Mm-hmm.   I would agree.   Derick Van Ness (22:08) right, student loans and a business loan. Well, that's a lot of cash flow, especially in the first five years going out of lot of people's pockets. So a lot of times I'll see a dentist and they're making, let's say they're taking home $500,000, which is very common. ⁓ But you look at their investments and everything and they've got 300 grand saved. And they've been at it for 10 years and you're like, what happened? it's they paid off student loans, they paid off business debt.   Kiera Dent (22:27) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (22:33) They've had to invest in equipment along the way. They've had to remodel their office. They bought a house. You know, and they have some nice things. But now when you start going back and saying, hey, we can do this, this, and this, and now you get to save an extra, let's go really, really low, an extra $20,000 a year. Okay. I did some math the other day for our newsletter, $20,000 a year. If that's what someone saved and they just put that money to work at 7%. Over 30 years, they'd have $2.1 million roughly.   Right? So it's like, it's not, it doesn't appear to be a huge thing, but over time it really does add up. And to be quite honest, someone who makes $500,000, I can think of a bunch of ways that are outside of the new tax bill, things we've been doing for years that can really save them a whole lot more than that. And so for a lot of people, like if somebody is making two and a half million dollars, there's actually some advanced strategies that can really move the needle in a big, big way. But these small things like paying your state tax by the end of the year,   It takes you five minutes and you saved 13 grand. Okay, that's a big deal. Doing, making sure you're paying yourself properly so that you don't end up paying self-employment tax unnecessarily on more of your income than you. Okay, that's another seven, 10, 15, 20 grand. ⁓ Paying your kids, Augusta rule, bonus depreciation. Okay, now all of sudden we took a bill that was maybe 120,000 of taxes for someone who makes 500 grand and now they're paying 50.   Kiera Dent (23:34) Hmm.   Derick Van Ness (24:00) So they kept 70,000. Like that's a big deal. You put that together and using the math I just did there, that's about $5 million over 30 years, right? So it's significant and I bring up the two and a half million thing, because I don't see a lot of dentists. I have a few clients that make that kind of money, but most of the dentists, especially people who own one or two practices, they're making between on the lower end, maybe 300, 350, on the higher end, maybe 800, 900,000.   Kiera Dent (24:00) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Derick Van Ness (24:29) You know, so suddenly an extra 50, 70, 80, $100,000 a year is a lot of money. It makes a really big difference.   Kiera Dent (24:37) I agree.   I even think though, on no matter where your bracket is, I think like, well, one, I just hope I don't know, Derick, I need to surround myself with people like this. I hope that no matter what income I make, I don't ever like pish posh 70 grand. Like I just hope I hope I never I mean, I hope that I'm a freaking billionaire at one point in my life, like that'd be incredible. And like the amount of good that we'll be able to do in this world, like even today. But I'm like, I hope that I stay   humble and grateful enough that I would never say like 20 grand or 50 grand is not worth my time to do ⁓ in a small effort. ⁓ And so I think that that's just a zone of like, let's remember the humility as well of like, yes, these things are tax savings, but they're also going to exponentially grow you, you, your practice, your family, like your contribution, your good that you're able to do in this world. So even if you're not using it for yourself, think of the good that you can give back to this community in this world. So I think   And then I'm also like, yeah, and if you're at 300, 70 grand is a lot. If you're at 900, 70 grand should still be a lot. If you're at 2.5 million, 70 grand should still be a lot for you to where I think like, I also feel it's a skill of staying sharp rather than getting lazy and sloppy as we evolve. I know I've done it. Like I used to be way more scrappy when I first started the company and I'm like, yeah, well, do we really have to do all this? And it's like, but I think this...   sharper we can keep ourselves and the more disciplined we can to be expert saviors. Like I talked to Ryan Isaac of Dentist Advisors often and he and I talk about like the biggest thing is like being a great saver, like building your wealth, but then also not losing your wealth by doing dumb things or not being disciplined and watching what you've built. Like it's kind of two sides of the coin and being able to get there at the end of the day, I think is what we're all striving for. So I think it's brilliant and I hope that nobody says pish posh to us.   Derick Van Ness (26:12) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (26:34) 70 grand if we could save you that much in taxes.   Derick Van Ness (26:37) I sure hope not, right? And if you do, it's because you've got a better use of your time than that. But quite frankly, most of this stuff, especially taxes, the cool thing is we've had a few tax rewrites in the last, you know, 10 years or so. But typically we don't have a lot of tax rewrites. So once you know the rules, it doesn't change that much year to year. A few little things change here or there, but for the most part, if you can take the time.   get yourself the right team or learn the rules yourself. mean, I think even people who know how to do this themselves, having a good tax pro on your team can be worth a lot because things do come up. ⁓ But honestly, most of it, once you know it, doesn't take a lot of time, right? We're talking a couple hours a year. And if you know what you're doing, a lot of this you kind of do along the way or it's already set up, like setting the money aside for taxes that's already set up, paying before the end of the year. That's just the thing you do one time, you write one check or make one payment online and   Kiera Dent (27:17) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (27:32) and you're done, right? And a lot of these things are easy. ⁓ Another one that's a really big one that came up with the tax bill that I'm very excited about is they brought back the research and development credits. And this is another thing that for a dentist, it'll probably take you two hours of time ⁓ to do it, like an hour to work with someone to do the projects, which is basically an interview of what have you done, what's the research so that the tax team can look at that.   Kiera Dent (27:43) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (28:00) And then just getting your tax returns over because not only do these credits come back, but you can retroactively, we've got one year to do this retroactively. You can go back and claim the credits for 2022, 2023 and 2024. And so that gives us three years where you can amend and go back and get that money. And I mean, for a typical dentist, I see on the low end, there are a lot of them. If you're investing in equipment, trying new stuff, which   Kiera Dent (28:15) Wow.   Derick Van Ness (28:29) most dentists to compete have to be doing today. If you're doing, you know, still doing mercury fillings from the seventies, then maybe that's not you. But most people who are listening to your podcast are...   Kiera Dent (28:32) Mm-hmm.   I was going to say you, most of the podcast   community should be in that realm.   Derick Van Ness (28:44) Yeah, I'm kind of joking, but typically, I mean, it's between $10,000 and $20,000 a year. if you have a big practice, I mean, we've had clients that have gotten multiple six figures back because they did some major overhauls and a bunch of stuff. But let's call it $15,000 to $20,000 a year for a lot of dentists. It takes 45 minutes to do it, the interview, and then a little bit of time to review that, make sure it's good.   So let's call it two, maybe three hours of total time to get that money back, right? And you can do this every year when we amend. You have to amend them and they go back to the IRS. And the IRS is taking about a year to get checks out. They're a little buried ever since COVID. They got behind and they just never caught back up. But once you get on top of that for 2025 and beyond, like you can just do it proactively. You just don't pay the taxes. You don't have to wait for a refund.   And so it's another one of those things where you spend an hour or two a year and you get 10, 15, 20, $30,000 a year that you just get to keep. Right. And so this one to me is a huge one for dentistry because the rate at which the industry is changing, right. Uh, went from, from cone beams to milling people, milling their own crowns. Now it's 3d printing pretty soon. It's going to be, you know, a lot of these things you see at the shows with the robots doing things and all kinds of different things that   Kiera Dent (29:50) Awesome.   Totally.   Derick Van Ness (30:12) Dentistry is a very progressive industry, right? A lot of AI coming in with answering phones and scheduling people and answering questions and all of that kind of stuff. You may as well get credits for it. You're doing the work, you're buying the equipment, you're figuring this stuff out. So if you're doing anything where you're upgrading, trying new technology, looking to get better, faster, more efficient, you're probably accruing the credits. ⁓ And it's just something you don't want to miss out on. R &D credits are... ⁓   not as well known as they could be because it's very much a specialty thing and it's relatively new to the tax code. It only became permanent in 2015. It's been around since the 80s but it changed a bunch and became permanent then. And the reason we didn't do it through 2022 through 2024 was there was a change in the 2017 tax code and you know they gave tax breaks.   Kiera Dent (30:43) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (31:07) to corporations, they had to make it up somewhere. And this was the place where they said, if people claim R &D, they also don't get to write off all the expenses without going into all the detail. It just wasn't worth doing. Now we can go back and recover that. Congress didn't think it was even going to become a law. I think they thought they were going to amend it. And then COVID happened. And they sort of forgot about it. So it became a law in 22. Anyway, this is all fixing it. So to me, this is a huge one. It's an easy win for a lot of a.   Kiera Dent (31:18) Yeah.   Derick Van Ness (31:36) a lot of dentists to be able to go out and just get a bunch of money back in taxes you've already paid for stuff you've already done. And it's pretty minimal effort. ⁓ There are lot of different people out there who do it. We do a free estimate for people so they can kind of see what's on the table. But yeah, it's pretty straightforward. To me, that's probably the one specific to dentistry that's going to apply to almost everybody listening almost every year. And so   I kind of saved it toward the end here because I think it's the big win. know, the others, the bonus depreciation can be bigger, but you're probably not buying a business or massive amounts of equipment every year. But if you are, then that's going to be a huge one too.   Kiera Dent (32:20) Yeah. No, Derick, I love that. And I did some math because you talked about like one hour approximately per month to do these things. And I just I did some really, really conservative numbers. So I was like, if we were doing 20 grand of how much we get for tax savings of like actual dollars to you. And that was in 15 hours a year. That's 1333. So about 1400 per hour. And so thinking about a dentist who's producing 1400 per hour.   That's actually, that's a pretty high production. You're producing about $11,000 a day as a dentist at that rate. Then I was thinking like, okay, the R &D is 10 grand, 20 grand in two hours. That's now producing $10,000 an hour. I was like, that dentist would be producing $80,000 a day. Just to put in comparison of your dollar per hour on production, you apply that to your tax savings. I think that it's to me,   Not all dentists are even producing $1,300 an hour. Even very, very skilled dentists, like 500 to 1,000 is actually pretty great. That's what we try to target for doctors to do. 8,000 a day is a pretty good amount. So when I just did the quick math and I'm like, a lot of dentists are not working five days a week. A lot of you are working four days a week. So if you just added this as part of your CEO time, one hour per month to dedicate to this.   What's the ROI of that time? think it's very well worthwhile. And I will agree with you, Derick. We've had you on the podcast before. That's why I had you come back on, because I am seeing multiple clients get these R &D credits coming through that I just think it's a worthwhile thing. Again, I feel like it's Geico. That's what I feel like right now. Like one hour or like one quick call could save you 10 to 20 grand. I think that that to me, again, let's be sharp. Let's be savvy. Let's make sure we take advantage of these opportunities because again,   Derick Van Ness (34:00) you   Kiera Dent (34:13) Like you've said, the compound of that 10 or $20,000 that you get over the course of the next 20 to 30 years while you're doing dentistry, even if it's five years, even if it's 10 years, ⁓ that to me is so worth your time. I feel like that's the best use of your time you can possibly do as a CEO, as a business owner. So Derick, that's why I want to do back on because I think everybody should connect with you. Everybody should talk to their CPAs about this.   I know you guys do the R &D credits. I also know that you guys do accounting. So if people are looking to connect with you, Derick, like what's the easiest way? Like I'm fired up listening to this podcast. I'm committed to my one hour a month. It's like one and a half guys. So you're gonna have to be a little bit more, but I'm committed to that. Where do I start? How do I get going to make sure that I can maximize this big, beautiful tax bill and also the R &D credits for my practice.   Derick Van Ness (35:03) It's a great question. So we actually set up a page just for Dental A Team listeners, right? So it's just, my company's called Big Life Financial. And we do that, it's not big money financial. Our goal is to help you get money out of the way so you can live the life you're here to live as a human, right? And really spend the family time and make the contributions and express yourself as you want to. But it's BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT. So if you go there, it's a research and development credits   opt in right for the page because I think that's the biggest win. But we will also do, if you would like, a full three year tax review for people. Anybody who wants to see, have I been overpaying? There's a million things we didn't touch on today because they're not part of the new tax bill. There are things that have been around for a long time. ⁓ But we can help you to get a good idea of have you been overpaying and what are the opportunities out there? ⁓ And so that's a great way to start. And then from there, if it seems like you want to   Kiera Dent (35:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (36:03) find out more, you have questions or things come up, but that's a good starting point, right? It's like a diagnostic that gives us a good place to start from. So BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT will set up a free call. It should only take maybe 15, 20 minutes at first just to answer any question. That's great.   Kiera Dent (36:19) 15 or more could save you.   It really fills up, it's true. It's true. Daria, I do have a question though, because people get creeped out by taxes. How often do doing this and looking back at past taxes alert audits within the IRS? Because people creep out about this.   Derick Van Ness (36:37) So doing it,   so the R &D credits, especially this because they literally passed a law and said, yes, you can go back and do it. So there's going to be a ton of people doing it. So I don't think it's going to be any type of audit unless you really weren't doing research, right? But that's what the interview is for, is to help us to identify it. And our team will essentially tell you what does and doesn't qualify. But there's no risk to it, especially because they're saying, hey, yeah, you can go back and do this. You could.   I mean, you could have claimed it before, but nobody did. So it's not going to stand out. also, even in the past, when we've done this for people prior to that law change, I think out of 16,000 filings, there's been like maybe 12 or 15 audits. It's lower. It's even lower than a typical audit range. And I don't know how that's even really possible, but it's just been very low. It's not something the IRS is really worried about. It's not huge amounts of money.   Kiera Dent (37:10) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (37:35) You know, some of these other strategies care that you're aware of. people are getting 50, 100,000, $200,000 tax breaks and those are much more highly scrutinized. You really doing this work, which dentists do, uh, and based on your industry, I don't think they're really going to bat an eye. It doesn't mean there's a zero chance, but it's very, very low. Just like if you had a piece of equipment, forgot to depreciate it. Now you went back and amended to do that. It's that straightforward. It's a permanent part of the tax code. It's not gray area stuff.   Kiera Dent (37:42) Right.   which is super helpful. And that's just where I wanted to clarify because I know people get kind of weird of like, yeah, I want to save on my taxes, but I'd rather not get audited. And so I think this is a world where you can be both. You can save on taxes legally, just like the Augustus rule. Like that is something very common. People do it if you don't know about it, talk to your CP about it, ⁓ your kids having real jobs. So I feel like it's something where, like you said, it's not talked about as much, but that does not mean that it is not as commonplace or that you shouldn't bonus appreciation on real estate, on big equipment.   Derick Van Ness (38:10) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (38:36) These are things that I also feel this is the time like a political landscape for you as a business owner to take advantage of tax benefits. The person who's in the White House currently, whatever you choose to believe or not believe is very pro businesses in a lot of ways. And so I'm like, if you're ever going to try it based on who's in office, ⁓ I think now is a great time ⁓ with how many things are coming forward for businesses and being more business. ⁓ I would just say   business friendly, I think is where the political landscape is currently. Again, not to go down a political path, just to be looking at like, if I'm hedging my bets, now is probably a really good time where odds of audits are probably a little bit lower than maybe at other times of the political landscape. So just things to think about. Derick, I love these podcasts. I love building wealth. So guys go to BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT, so Dental A Team. So it's just DAT our initials.   Derick Van Ness (39:15) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (39:32) And Derick will take great care of you. Derick, any last thoughts as we wrap up today? I appreciate you so much being on here.   Derick Van Ness (39:38) No, just think, you know, dentists work really, really hard and I feel like a lot of them don't get the fruits of their labor because there's a lot of these little things that they haven't been taught. And I think all the little things do add up. So, you know, this is one of those things that if you choose to just take it on, figure it out in a year or two, you'll be way ahead of the game and you get to benefit from that basically forever. Right? lot of this stuff, once you figure it out one time, you can just ride.   80%, 90 % on autopilot. So if you've been afraid of it, would say it's climb over that hill, whether it's with us or someone else, it is really worth it. You guys work too hard, take too many risks, deal with too much headache to not get the full amount of the money that you really deserve to keep. So yeah.   Kiera Dent (40:23) I agree.   That's why Derick gets to be on the podcast because we're very aligned. I've always said I want dentists to be insanely wealthy, insanely. I see what you go through in school. mean, 2.5 million debt ⁓ to even get the opportunity to practice. ⁓ That's really where I was on a very strong mission to help dentists just like Derick to be as successful as you want to be. And there's little strategies like what we talked about that are big strategies. So take advantage, get over the hump.   Chat with Derick or your financial advisor or your CPA. But these things, I think, need to be part of your every single year conversations. They need to be talked about multiple times. You need to be asking what's been changing in the tax bill, keeping yourself a part of it. Very simple moves, big gains this year. Derick, as always, thanks for being a part of it. I really appreciate you. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening, and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

In this episode I'm joined by historian Alexandra Birch to talk about the role of music and sound in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. We discuss her recent book Hitler's Twilight of the God's: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe, how music and sound contributed to genocide and Nazi identity formation, how the Nazis used music to embed their mythology and ideology into everyday people's lives, the types of music and composers that the Nazi command structure favored or regulated, the psychology of genocide from the victim and perpetrator perspective and how music may have figured into that, some misconceptions and common misunderstandings about music during the Holocaust, the soundscape of horror inside a concentration camp, some of Alexandra's thoughts on holocaust denialism and the role of museums in preserving history, and much more.  Dr. Alexandra Birch is a professional violinist and historian who works comparatively on the Nazi Holocaust and Soviet mass atrocity, including the Gulag through the lens of music and sound. She holds a PhD in History from the University of California Santa Barbara, and a BM, MM, and DMA from Arizona State University in violin performance. Previously, she was a fellow at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Wilson Center, and the Vienna Wiesenthal Institute, where she released CDs of recovered music and finished her first book Hitler's Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe. Her current project “Sonic Shatterzones, The Intertwined Spaces, Sound and Music of Nazi and Soviet Atrocity,” investigates eight case studies of the Holocaust in the USSR and Gulag, including indigenous interactions with Solovki, new recordings of Weinberg's compositions from his time in Tashkent, sound recordings of the Gulag in Kazakhstan and of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and post-Soviet world premiere compositions, creating a humanizing look at incomprehensible violence. -Consider Supporting the Podcast!- Leave a rating or review on apple podcasts or spotify! Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory Check out my podcast series on Aftersun, Piranesi, Arcane, The Dark Knight Trilogy, and Nazi Germany and the Battle for the Human Heart here: https://www.reflectinghistory.com/bonuscontent Try my podcast series "Nazi Germany and the Battle for the Human Heart"-- What led to the rise of Nazi Germany? The answer may surprise you…Why do 'good' people support evil leaders? What allure does fascism hold that enables it to garner popular support? To what extent are ordinary people responsible for the development of authoritarian evil? This 13 part podcast series explores these massive questions and more through the lens of Nazi Germany and the ordinary people who collaborated or resisted as the Third Reich expanded. You'll not only learn about the horrifying, surprising, and powerful ways in which the Nazis seized and maintained power, but also fundamental lessons about what fascism is-how to spot it and why it spreads. Through exploring the past, I hope to unlock lessons that everyone can apply to the present day. Check it out on my Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory. Try my podcast series "Piranesi: Exploring the Infinite Halls of a Literary Masterpiece"-- This podcast series is a deep analysis of Susanna Clark's literary masterpiece "Piranesi." Whether you are someone who is reading the novel for academic purposes, or you simply want to enjoy an incredible story for it's own sake, this podcast series goes chapter by chapter into the plot, characters, and themes of the book...“The Beauty of the House is immeasurable; it's kindness infinite.” Piranesi lives in an infinite house, with no long-term memory and only a loose sense of identity. As the secrets of the House deepen and the mystery of his life becomes more sinister, Piranesi must discover who he is and how this brings him closer to the “Great and Secret Knowledge” that the House contains. Touching on themes of memory, identity, mental health, knowledge, reason, experience, meaning, reflection, ideals, and more…Piranesi will be remembered as one of the great books of the 21st century. Hope you enjoy the series as much as I enjoyed making it. Check it out at https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory. Subscribe to my newsletter! A free email newsletter offering historical perspective on modern day issues, behind the scenes content on my latest podcast episodes, and historical lessons/takeaways from the world of history, psychology, and philosophy: https://www.reflectinghistory.com/newsletter.

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books.   Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials.   After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children.   We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more.     About the Guest:   Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion.   Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series.   Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com.   Ways to connect with Tricia:   https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups,   Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group.   Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand   Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper,   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should.   Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area,   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you   Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications.   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh,   Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night.   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I   Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company   Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business.   Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow,   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it.   Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add   Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining   Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool.   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover.   Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition?   Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go?   Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years.   Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really   Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it,   Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most.   Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing,   Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too.   Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that   Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from   Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that   Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches.   Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story   Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he   Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so,   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think,   Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do.   Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world.   Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It   30:00 definitely so   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books?   Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop.   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors,   32:30 right,   Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges?   Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about?   Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer.   Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay.   Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just   Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally.   Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies,   Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series.   Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there?   Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already?   Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance.   Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I   Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it.   Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone?   Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which   Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will,   Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters.   Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I   Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that.   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback?   Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names.   Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is   Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy?   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun.   Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally,   Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander.   Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre?   Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books   Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get   Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series?   Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book.   Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It   Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award.   Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way?   Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together?   Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share.   Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com,   Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L,   52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance.   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that,   Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com   53:21 too. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you.   Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are.   54:01 I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do.   Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here.   Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

他是一位活躍於區塊鏈與金融科技的創業者，在金融業縱橫多年，並且目前是海耶克科技共同創辦人兼商務長，在傳統金融與加密貨幣產業都有豐富的經驗。 本集邀請金融派大星以及資深研究員 Jason 來跟大家聊聊，加密三大法案內容是什麼？穩定幣會改變了哪些傳統金融的生態？未來加密產業的前景是什麼？

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight.   In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life.   Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them.     About the Guest:   Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan:   Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr      About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you,   Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a   Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously,   Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm   Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station,   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky.   Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half   Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh,   Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it   Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that?   Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10.   Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away   Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers   Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this?   Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened?   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while?   Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now.   Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you   Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift   Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again.   Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I   Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They   Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh   Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work?   Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people?   Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com   Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that,   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not,   Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work.   Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But   Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock,   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done,   Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors,   Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did.   Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny,   Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone?   Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know,   Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well?   Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them?   Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. 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Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they unpack the five essential pillars that take Agile from “just the motions” to meaningful, measurable impact. Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at their revamped course built for real team transformation. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by longtime collaborator and Agile thought leader Mike Cohn for a deep dive into what really makes Agile stick. They explore the five foundational pillars—mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team—and share stories of what happens when teams get them wrong (like obsessing over story point math or demoing a copyright update in a sprint review). Along the way, they introduce the newly available Working on a Scrum Team public course and explain why it’s designed for entire teams, not just isolated roles. Whether you're new to Agile or knee-deep in transformation, this episode will help you rethink how to build an Agile approach that actually works. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn #80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn Scrum Team Roles and Responsibilities Working on a Scrum Team Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today, I have the one and only Mike Cohn back with us. Welcome in, Mike. Mike (00:12) Thanks, Brian. Good to be here. Brian Milner (00:14) Always happy to have Mike on the show and really appreciate Mike making time to come on. Wanted to have Mike on because there's some things Mike's been talking about recently that are really interesting and people have been asking a little bit about this and I thought maybe it'd be just a good opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that Mike's been writing about. I know you spent, Mike, a lot of time helping teams to not just do Agile but to really get solid results from it. to see impact from it. And I know the topic you've been talking about recently is sort of these five pillars of supporting real agile improvements, the mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team. So I thought maybe we could just dig in and drive through those and maybe learn a little bit about those as we go. Obviously also to talk a little bit about the exciting new course that's being launched here, the working on a Scrum team course, because I know that was originally just for private classes, right? And now it's being open to the public. Mike (01:23) Yeah, we've done working on a Scrum team as a private class for probably 20 plus years. It's been kind of our main offering to private clients. But we're hearing from a lot of people that they have one team and they can't really get a private class approved with the budget and such. So what we're doing is going ahead and making that course available as a public course. So two people from your company, five people from another company all in the same class the way we've done our certified courses for decades. And so we're going to start offering this as a public course. And the exciting thing there is that it's really meant to be a team-based class, where things like Scrum Master training, great class, but it's really meant for the Scrum Master, right? And working on a Scrum team is really designed, and you and I helped you and I design this course together, but it's designed to be something that is a whole team training, right? So good for anybody on a team. Brian Milner (02:16) Yeah, yeah, it's been really great teaching those in the private classes and I'm excited to think about the public being able to come in and take that now. Let's talk a little bit about these pillars and, I think people are gonna be really intrigued by the concept here. The first one is mindset, I think, and just wanna start there and say, what does it actually mean to... think Agile and what is the found, why is that kind of the foundation for successful transformations? Mike (02:43) Remember the kind of the early days of agile and there was a lot of conversation about could you be agile without understanding the principles, right? If you just did the practices, were you agile? Other people were saying, no, you have to start with the principles, right? And so do you start with principles? Do you start with practices? And I remember these early debates and they often devolved into a discussion of the karate kid movie, right? Remember that one, right? And, you know, can you just wax on? Brian Milner (03:12) Ha Mike (03:12) for long enough, just do the practices. And then all of a sudden, your karate instructor or your agile coach is, OK, you're agile. And it's like, wait, all I know how to do is wax a car, right? And so there were these discussions about practices versus principles. And I was kind of always on the side where you better understand the principles to do this. Just knowing the practices, waxing on all day, is kind of just going through the motions. And so you have to understand the principles. And the idea that I wanted was that if a team truly understood all of the principles underneath Agile, I don't just mean just the manifesto, but all the principles that are there from Lean, from Kanban, from everything, that if you really understood those, you'd kind of invent the practices, right? You do those and you go eventually to go, hey, we should probably meet every day. Or hey, if we tested first, that might be a really good thing. Brian Milner (03:57) Yeah. Mike (04:05) So you'd invent the practices if you really had that type of agile mindset. And so for me, when we're working with organizations to get them truly agile, and I don't mean like more agile than less agile, but agile in a way that's going to stick, you got to change mindsets, right? You've got to do more than just the wax on. So people have to get the mindset. Brian Milner (04:27) Yeah, I love that. I know that I've experienced some things in the course of working with people that's it's sort of like you, if you're not on the same page with the principles, then you start to talk through the practices and you run up against a problem. And really what you find out the core of it was, well, we weren't aligned on really the principle behind this. So why would I want the practices then, right? ⁓ Mike (04:49) Yeah. Well, that's where you also end up then with a lot of team debates about things, right? Because you're arguing about the practice. if you'll say you and I are arguing about the benefit of some practice, if we agree on the principle, we might just have different views on it. But deep down, we'll probably agree on some practice, or we might find an alternative one. But if you don't agree on the principles, you end up with a lot more of these kind of annoying. mean, team debates are great. I mean, I love. Brian Milner (04:54) Yeah. Mike (05:12) you know, having a team debate, arguing stuff like that, but not about pointless things, right? And not without some sort of foundation. They just kind of get in the way. It's just frustrating for everybody. Brian Milner (05:21) Yeah. Well, I'm kind of curious, what kind of signs or signals do you think teams should look out for to kind of clue in and let them know that what might actually be going on here is more of a mindset issue? Mike (05:36) think sometimes it's when you hear the appeal to authority, right? Somebody says, you know, well, we got to do it this way because the scrum guide says, right? Or the one that annoys me is we have to do it this way because Mike Cohn says, ⁓ you know, that was like, no, I, somewhere else also said, think, right? Don't just, you know, don't just, you know, blindly do story points or something. Cause I say they're a good thing. I want you to think too. Brian Milner (05:50) You You Mike (06:01) And so I think that kind of appeal to authority when teams are debating things. It's where we also see teams who think they're agile because they do a set of practices. We use a particular agile tool, so we must be agile. We do daily meetings. We must be agile. And those are not the things that make you agile. Those are artifacts of being agile. If you're agile, you're going to meet a lot. You're not going meet a lot, but you're going to talk a lot. Um, and so those are the artifacts of behaving in an agile way. And so I want to understand why we're doing those things. So I look for those kind of appeals to authority. Um, you know, emphasis on that type of stuff in an argument talking about how this is the right way saying there's only one right way to do something. Brian Milner (06:49) Yeah, yeah, that's great. How does working on the Scrum team deal with this? How does that address it? Mike (06:55) Well, one of the things we do, it was actually one of my favorite exercises. We do this exercise at the start of the class where we ask people to kind of map out how the organization talks about certain adsel principles and then how does the organization behave. And so for example, if a company says, people are our greatest asset, and then they treat people like dirt, we've got this kind of problem between what we say and what we do. And so I like to kind of map this out. And so we do this with the principles in the Agile Manifesto. And once we map those out and we start to see things that we say we value, but we don't behave that way, really helps us understand if we've really embraced that mindset. Or are we just doing things because an Agile coach told us to, or a boss told us to, or we did it that way in our prior company. Those are all bad reasons to do something. Brian Milner (07:48) Y eah. So this is great. So I agree. The mindset's really foundational. And there is this symbiotic relationship between mindset and practices, which came first and which comes first, as we talked about. I know a lot of teams get stuck doing Agile, though, in really only name only. So when we talk about practices, what makes the difference between going through the motions? Mike (08:00) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (08:11) and actually doing things that work. Mike (08:13) Well, practices is kind of our second pillar, right? You have to have the mindset, right? But you also have to have the practices that come from having that mindset. so, again, I try to think of that team on a desert island, right? And they're isolated from the world. They've never talked to anybody, but they have an agile mindset. What practices are they going to invent, right? And I think those are kind of the core practices. We see a lot of problems with as an example, teams that misunderstand sprint planning. And I know when I first started teaching about sprint planning, I'd have a slide up there to have a picture of a sprint backlog. And the sprint backlog listed tasks like code this, design this, test this. And then there were estimates next to code this. It's going to take four hours testing. It's going to take three. And so we were able see all these numbers and think the point of a sprint planning was these numbers. And Even in the early days of this, I was always saying, no, it's not about those numbers. It's about deciding what product backlog items you can pick. if taking a, I don't even want to call it an estimate, but taking a wild guess about, it probably can take four hours to code. If that helps you decide how many backlog items you can commit to, great, put those numbers up there. But it was never about the numbers. And it's one of the most common problems that I see with teams in sprint planning is they get obsessed with How many hours did we bring in? How many points did we bring in? And I remember one team I worked with where we did sprint planning. Having those estimates were helpful for them on their sprint back. They were helping. And we finished the meeting. And we're using Google Sheets in a meeting to do this. We've got a row with the estimates in there. And as we start to wind down the meeting, I deleted that column that they'd spent so much time talking about. They're all kind of pissed off at me. Why'd you delete that? We spent all this time talking about it. I said, because we got the benefit, right? You got the benefit of those numbers. The benefit isn't a week from now remembering that you said five hours, because it's going to take what it takes. The benefit was the discussion that it led to of can we take more or are we already full? So I see teams get obsessed with that. This is one example, but that's one of the problems with sprint planning as a practice. Brian Milner (10:25) Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things I know I've talked about with people going through the course is sort of understanding the purpose behind the things. Just going back to, know, harkening back to what you said about, don't just do it because someone told you, you know, understand why the purpose behind it. And, know, otherwise we, I'm sure we've all had that experience before where someone just tells you to do something and says, you know, why? Cause I told you so, you know, that, that doesn't, that's not very convincing. Mike (10:52) Thanks, Mom. Brian Milner (10:53) Right, right, thanks mom. Yeah, not very convincing, but it's much more convincing when they can tell you, well, no, you do this because this is what we're trying to do. And I think you're right, that makes all the difference there. ⁓ Mike (11:05) It just, don't know anybody that responds well to being told what to do, right? My instant reaction is no, right? mean, you it could be, you know, a really, you it could be a really good thing. Eat more vegetables, you spend more time outside. No, right? Don't tell me what to do. So. Brian Milner (11:09) Right. Right. Yeah. It's almost like our default response is no until you convince me. Are there other common practices? We talked about sprint planning. Are there other kind of practices you see teams struggle with? Mike (11:28) Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. think a huge one is product backlog refinement. I don't know what a better word would be than refinement. refinement is about making the backlog better. It's not about making it perfect. And I see teams that get stuck on backlog refinement and feel like they have to resolve every open issue, that everything has to be tiny and answered and buttoned up before we can start a sprint. And that's not the case. For me, the goal in refinement is to make sure things are small enough and sufficiently well understood. I don't want to bring in a backlog that's bigger than my velocity. If our velocity is 25, I don't want bring in a 50-point story. how about the problems of a 50-point story anyway? But I don't want to bring in some massive epic like that into a sprint. And so refinement is about making it small, making sure it's sufficiently well understood. Sufficiently well understood, not perfectly. And so Brian Milner (12:18) Yeah. Mike (12:28) The problem is these teams, and I know you've seen this, but teams who get in there, want to resolve every open issue. It's like, no, we can resolve that during the sprint. If we think about the goal and planning to make sure we know what to bring into the sprint, not too much, not too little, we're fine just enough that you're at that point. Is the button blue or red? Who cares? If it's a log in story, we're going to lock people out after some number of failed attempts. Who cares how many? Figure that out during the sprint. If it's five or three or eight, who cares? Figure that out later. So I think refinements won. Another big one would be reviews, ⁓ where sometimes teams demo too much in a sprint review. And they feel like they have to justify their existence, show everything you did during the sprint. And the most egregious example of that was this was a handful of years ago. But I literally remember a team showing Brian Milner (12:58) Yeah. Yeah. Mike (13:18) how they had updated the copyright notice on the footer of the web page, know, copyright, you know, whatever year our company, right? And it's like, my God, you didn't need to show that to stakeholders, right? We all either know there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the web page or we've seen one before. I don't need you to bring it up and scroll down to it. Now only took 15 seconds of the meeting, but that was 15 seconds of people's lives. They were never going to get back. you know, show stuff that you need feedback on, right? If you'd... Brian Milner (13:41) Right. Mike (13:45) You fixed a bug and you fixed it only way it could be fixed. Mention it perhaps, but you don't need to show it, right? Brian Milner (13:51) Yeah, yeah, know teams I've been on often it's just it's suffice it to have a list sometimes and just say here's a list of things if you want to know more about these come talk to us but we're move on to the stuff you care about. Mike (14:02) Yeah, I always have like a will show, will not show list. you know, I often, if I'm writing the meetup present, that'll put that up on Zoom or, you know, show it on a screen if we're in person. And often somebody wants to see something that's on the will not show list. Or they just want me to describe what bug was that again? What was that? You know, and I'll explain it really quickly. But if nobody wants to see it, don't bother showing it. So. Brian Milner (14:26) Yeah, I know we talk about these scrum practices quite a bit in the working on the scrum team class, but if someone signed up to take this class, what can they expect to hear or what can they expect to learn about these practices in the course? Mike (14:39) Well, I think one of the things that you and I did together in creating the newest version of the course was to look at what do you actually need to practice doing, and it's feasible to practice doing in a classroom setting, versus what should you just kind of talk through. And not everything needs to be practiced to get the hang of it, right? Everybody in the world has taken something big and split it up into smaller things before, right? I need to make. spaghetti dinner tonight. What do need to buy? Right? OK. Well, that's that's that's test decomposition by noodles, by sauce, by tomatoes. Let's make it from scratch. Right. By some garlic. Right. So everybody in the world has done decomposition. We've broken a big thing into small things. And I remember, you know, iterating over I'm still on sprint planning, I guess. But I remember iterating over exercises in sprint planning and in courses over the decades by now. And I would have one where you're planning a party for your kid, break it down into tasks. It's like, nobody learns anything from this. And so that's one where I'd rather say, OK, this problem occurs in sprint planning. How could you solve it? Other things like, let's say, splitting user stories or splitting job stories, that's a skill worth practicing together, getting feedback on. And so those type of things we try to practice in the course. other things we just talk about. mean, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. What do you think about some things being worth practicing, some things worth being better talked about? Brian Milner (16:01) Yeah, I agree. I agree fully. it's, it's, you know, there's some things, it's kind of like what you said before, there's some things that's not worth spending the time on, and it's better to just have a discussion and move on. Mike (16:13) Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's one of the things we always talked about. We always talked about return on investment of the exercise. What's the return on the exercise? And if you're going to have a one hour exercise, cool. One hour exercise. But it better have a pretty healthy return because that's a lot of time in class. And so what's the return on exercise? Is this worth a practice? Is it worth just a discussion? And if we can discuss two hard problems and give people advice on two common problems, they're probably going to face. Brian Milner (16:21) Yeah. Mike (16:41) Might be better than spending 20 minutes practicing something that they've probably done before. Brian Milner (16:45) Yeah, I completely agree. Let's move to the third pillar then, because I know this is a big one, just thinking and talking about the roles. And just as far as communication issues are concerned, even outside of Scrum, I know that's part of the big problem with teams and organizations just not being clearly defined about who does what and who's responsible for each thing. So those misunderstandings are really common failure points. ⁓ Mike (17:09) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (17:10) How do you see teams getting that wrong and how's that derailing a Scrum team? Mike (17:15) Well, think we see it all the time on Scrum teams between Scrum Master and Product Owner and even the development team, right? Who does what? I was responding to some comments on LinkedIn this morning on some post I'd made last week and somebody had some comments. And it had to do with whether the Scrum Master or Product Owner does something. And it was interesting because in the comments on that post, I... I don't remember which one it was, but I shared a certain perspective. I feel pretty strongly that I have it right. I mean, I this is how we do it. But there were other people saying the opposite, right? And so, you know, these are people that are probably fairly experienced with Scrum, if they're following me on LinkedIn and feel comfortable commenting on a post, probably feel comfortable with it. And so there's a lot of confusion about what role does what thing. And I don't think this is something where the Scrum guy is going to have the answers for you. I think it's, I mean, you can look at the Scrum guy, oh, this. Here's my starting point answer, but we always want to play to people's strengths, right? And if you've got a scrum master who's got a lot of skill in one area, maybe they shift a little work from the PO to themselves, right? With the PO's permission, right? And the opposite, right? Between maybe PO and team. So it's fine to have default starting positions on who does what, but you always want to play to people's strengths. So I think PO scrum master, I think we see it with project managers and scrum masters, roll confusion on those type of roles as well. Brian Milner (18:38) Yeah, completely agree. A lot of those roles that are not named Scrum team roles and how they interact with the team, that's often a source of confusion as well. What are maybe some signs or symptoms that teams might be having confusion or problems in this area that maybe they don't even recognize or realize they're having an issue with roles? Mike (18:59) Any sort of conflicts, right? You know, you and I arguing over which one of us should do something. The other one would be kind of the opposite, which would be like a dropped ball. I was watching some YouTube video. I love baseball. I was watching some YouTube video the other day of like missed catches or something like that. And some team hit a baseball way up in the air and it was landing near three players, right? Three players are all looking at it. Brian Milner (19:12) You Mike (19:23) One guy waves the other two off, he's going to catch the ball and he must have been blinded by the sun because he's like six feet from the ball when it lands on the ground, right? And, you know, if we have a responsibility to catch the ball, run this meeting, right, right the backlog, the kids dropped, right? And so I think either arguing over who does something, two of us trying to do the same thing or neither of us doing it. I don't mean trying to get out of the work, right? All three players have been happy to catch the ball, but I think you've got it. You think I've got it, right? Those type of things are pretty good signs. think getting clarity around these roles can really optimize how a team works. And I think a really key thing here is that it changes over time. So I'll go back to my example of maybe the Scrubmaster has some skills that can help the product owner early on. Because maybe the product owner is new to the company. The product owner doesn't know the product as well. So they might rely on the Scrubmaster for guidance on things. Well, a year from now, we might shift responsibilities a little bit because now the PO is the expert on all things related to the product. So it's not like we want to establish clarity on roles one time and leave it forever. It's going to change. We get a new tester on the team, things might change. Product owner moves. It's going to change again. So we need to realize these responsibilities are dynamic. Brian Milner (20:39) Yeah, that's a great point. Your point about baseball just made me think about how, when you watch any youth sport in the world, when you go watch your kids play a sport, what's the one thing you always hear people scream from the sideline? Talk to each other. Call the ball. Well, that too. That too. Ump your blind. Those kinds of things. Well, let's talk a little bit about Mike (20:52) I thought you were going say, put my kid in. Brian Milner (21:00) I know this course addresses the roles and how would you say this course really helps address that issue of role confusion? Mike (21:07) think a big part of it is that we designed it to be for everybody on the team, right? Suppose you send a scrum master to a class, and it's a great class. Scrum master is going to back to the certain set of impressions about their role. Product owner goes to an equally good class about the product. They might have different impressions. Even if they took the course from the same instructor, they're hearing it a little differently. They're hearing it through their filters, right? And so when they're in a course together, there's more opportunities to clarify their understanding about those things, especially in the classes designed as we did with this one to bring out some of those differences. So I think the course helps with that. we've also designed it to mention the rules we haven't talked about, like managers and things like that. Brian Milner (21:53) Yeah, yeah, I think those are so important. And there's a lot of great discussions that come out when we have those topics. ⁓ Let's talk about the fourth pillar then, teamwork, because this, I think, builds really well on what we just talked about. And the idea that there's actually, Scrum is a team sport. ⁓ So beyond just normal human personality conflict type issues, what do you see that gets in the way of teams actually Mike (21:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (22:18) working as a team. Mike (22:19) think ego is probably one, right? I can do everything better, just leave me alone. There's an old book that says basically, beware of a lone developer in a room, right? You know, it was referring to the developer who wants to close their door and say, I'll it done in a month, trust me, right? And one of the companies I worked with, and this one's going back like 15 years ago, but it was a really good story. Brian Milner (22:36) Yeah. Mike (22:43) is they would literally grab one unit of work. Each person on the team would grab a unit of work and take anywhere from three to 12 months to do the thing. So they were big things, but the person would do everything on it. They'd coded, tested everything. And the organization was putting out very little because of this. When they moved to Scrum in the first year, by their estimate, they said they delivered 540 % more work. over five times the amount of new features delivered. And that was through the collaboration, through the short iterations, those type of things. But it was about getting people to collaborate more. So I think there's huge opportunities to do that. One of the problems I see is when we don't overlap work. If we think about that organization I just described, you grab your thing, you're done in six months. I grab mine, I'm done in seven months. If we'd work together on those things, what's not make us any faster? No faster. But you and I could have worked on your one thing and been done in three months. OK, we're delivering value in three months, right? And so one of the things I look for a lot is how much teams are overlapping work, right? And if we're not overlapping work, there's huge opportunities to improve at that. I'll a little example of this. One of my favorite restaurants is, I don't know, barely call it a restaurant. It's a fast food deli. It's called Jimmy John's. Have you been to Jimmy John's, Yeah. Yeah, there's one near my house where I can go there and the wine will be out the door. Right. And you know, normally you see a wine out the door and it's like, crap, I'm going somewhere else. Right. These guys are so fast. They're so fast. When I get to the front, I place my order. I play this little game of can I fill up my cup? You know, I get an iced tea and they give me an empty cup and can I go fill up ice and put the tea in before they hand me my sandwich? And it's about 50-50. Right. It doesn't take long to fill up your iced tea. But the way they do that is the overlap work. As soon as I order my Italian club sandwich, somebody's already got the bread open, somebody's got a slab of meat they're ready to drop on there, somebody else has their hands over the vegetables and they're dropping the vegetables on there, and then a fourth person wraps it up. And so like four or five people touch my sandwich. Hopefully their hands are clean, but four or five people touch my sandwich as opposed to like most delis where I go and it's like you watch one person plod along making the sandwich, right? Overlap work is huge. Brian Milner (25:07) Yeah. Yeah, this episode sponsored by, no, just kidding. Use code Mike Cohn when you go to, no, just kidding. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with Jimmy John's. Probably too familiar. ⁓ Yes, yeah, no, that's, I think that's part of their shtick is that they're, you know, they're known for being fast. So yeah. Mike (25:10) You Is yours just as fast? Yeah. Yeah. They call it Freaky Fast. They actually have a competition. I've seen YouTube videos of this where they get like the best teams at various restaurants race, right? And so they have like the Jimmy John sandwich making Olympics or something, but it's a skill. Brian Milner (25:36) wow, wow, yeah. You should pair that up with the hot dog eating challenge in some way and see if we could have a team sport going there. ⁓ Mike (25:48) Well, that's a good point because think about the hot dog eating. That's one guy, right? That's Joey Chesnett shoving hot dogs down. The Jimmy Johns is a team. They get the best crew at a restaurant and it's a team, right? How fast can the team go? Not how fast can one guy make a sandwich, right? Brian Milner (25:51) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So what are some tips? What are some ways that you can really unite a team, especially those new teams? Because that's the fascination point for me is, how do you take this group of humans that really don't know each other and haven't worked together in the past and unite them together and have them gel as a team? How do you do that? Mike (26:21) I'll give you a couple. One, I think having really crisp sprint goals helps. So we all know exactly what we're trying to get done in the sprint. We don't lose sight of that because sometimes in the middle of a sprint, you lose sight of it. And you get myopic and you just focus on a list of tasks. And I'm going to say that it's probably similar to the team doing sprint planning and just getting them assessed with the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the tasks. It's about the backlog items that lead to some goal. So crisp sprint goals help. That's a hard phrase. Crisp Sprinkles helps. The other one I'd say is having a shared vision about where you're headed over a little bit longer term. Probably the biggest change to the Scrum Guide ever that I've liked is the inclusion of a product goal. And that was something I'd been talking about forever. mean, literally since I started doing Scrum was that sprinkles are great, but they're pretty short, right? You want to have something bigger. Brian Milner (26:52) It is. Mike (27:14) And so I like having product goals that are a few months out there. And one of the things I like doing for product goals is have teams do something like write a press release that describes their goal or create a vision in some way, write a review that you want to see come out on the App Store, Play Store, and a magazine. And one of my clients made software and they were reviewed by a major magazine and they were given an editor's choice runner up award. And they actually estimated that being runners up for that was probably worth about $10 million. First place, first time was worth about $10 million a year to them. And so they decided to get serious about this and they wrote a review. Their scrum master, she was actually combo scrum master product owner, Erin. She had the team write a review and she said, let's go earn this review. And I literally remember the email I got from her three months later. It was because it was Halloween night. I just like, you know, brought in the candy from outdoors. We're done trick or treating. And I checked my email. I a three word email from her from Erin. said we did it. And the magazine had let her know, hey, we're reviewing you. be out on, you know, like Tuesday's edition. And the review had quotes in there that were from their vision review, right? The things that they had wanted to achieve. Brian Milner (28:22) Ha ha. Mike (28:35) And that team had just really jelled around that and just became so much more productive and collaborated so much better because of that shared vision. Brian Milner (28:43) Yeah, that's amazing. getting back to the course then, I know in the course we're trying to kind of some of those collaboration muscles. What are some of the ways that the course helps to build that? Mike (28:56) think one of the key things that we're doing, and I'm excited about this, is that we're, you know, we of course use Zoom breakout rooms, right? You you go talk about this, we'll see you in eight minutes or something like that. And for this course, we're doing something where a group of three or more, when they register, can have a private breakout room. And this to me is exciting because people get the benefit of having a private breakout room. They can have sensitive discussions if they want. They can talk very specifically about. you know, what do we do about our jerk product owner? mean, whatever it is, right? You know, they can talk about their specific issues, yet have the context of a broader class. Because I think in one of the benefits of any public class is hearing how other teams are doing things. And sometimes that's because you get a good advice, you know, how did you solve that problem? We have that problem. Other times, it's just feeling that you're not alone in the world. they've got that problem too, right? And they don't have any solution for me, but I know I'm not alone in the world with this. And so I like these private breakout rooms for three or more. I think it's a novel thing we're doing with this class. And it's with the intent of combining the best of both worlds of private and public training for this. I'd the other thing is probably consistency, having everybody on the team hear the same message, having those discussions with an experienced instructor like you or me in the room to provide guidance when they have questions. know, go back to the role clarity, right? You know, they can talk about it and they're there. Then they're back in the main room with you or me and we can kind of answer questions. So I think that consistency will be huge as well. Brian Milner (30:25) Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of the private private breakout rooms that that's that's gonna be huge for a lot of people I know. ⁓ Mike (30:31) I'm excited to try it with this. This will be the first classes we do that for. I'm excited about it. Brian Milner (30:36) Yeah, yeah. Well, let's bring it home then and talk about the fifth pillar because the fifth pillar is really interesting as well. It talks about support beyond the team and teams can only do so much. Every team struggles when they're not supported well. And there's lots of studies that show leadership support is one of the biggest hurdles or obstacles to the adoption. Mike (30:46) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (30:59) What does that support look like from outside the team and how can a team influence that? Mike (31:06) Yeah, if you're trying to be agile and your HR group has quarterly reviews of personnel that are all based on individual performance and has nothing to do about teamwork in there, it's going to be hard to focus on collaboration. So we have to kind of fix these issues. I think what we have to do here is to have team members educate those outside the organization. And we have information that we share about, you here's how to talk to a boss that's maybe mandating deadlines, things like that. And so we try to coach people through having some of those challenging conversations. And one of things I want teams to do is kind of become an example of what good agile looks like. And if you have a team that's excelling with agile and they're doing it from a kind of principles first, that mindset first approach. You're going to see other groups look at that and let's say the marketing group. They're going to look at that go, hey, that's an interesting way to work. I wonder how we could do that, right? And it's going look different for a marketing group than a tech team. the mindset is going to be the same. Principles will still be the same. And so when we get teams to do really well with this, other parts of the organization start to get interested. And then they stop being as much in our way. Brian Milner (32:20) Yeah. I know one of the most important aspects here and that we talk about is, is that you don't need to, to wait, right? If you're the team level, you don't have to just sit around and wait for the organization to make changes. you, you have opportunities to make changes as well. So how does that happen? How's the team change, you know, bring about those changes that, improve the agile process, the results. Mike (32:42) I think that's by being the example so that people see it. I think it's by having those conversations. You know, one of the things that we'll get is, you know, it's so common is the product owner that wants to change their mind all the time. I was reading something, I guess this is in our Agile mentors community, I think is where it was, but it was about the, you know, the product owner who said his favorite thing about Agile is that he can reprioritize every week. ⁓ And it's like, you can, you know. Brian Milner (33:05) Hmm. Yeah Mike (33:10) I'm not sure it's good. And I think about that, a team gets momentum, right? And you're working on a certain feature. Next sprint, it would be nice to work in that same area of this system, right? Your head's there. Just kind of keep going a little bit. And I've often described this as like, let's say you're working on three backlog items that are in a certain area of this system. Let's make it concrete. Let's say it's the spell checker in Microsoft Office, right? And you do three backlog items related to the spell checker this sprint. Next sprint, maybe your top priority is not more spell checker stuff, but maybe items, I don't know, 25, 26, and 27 on the backlog are still in the spell checker. You know what? It might be better to do those. There are probably two or three sprints away. Let's bring them into this sprint. Just get them done while my head's into spell checking. And so getting product owners or stakeholders to stop doing that, one of the ways that I like to talk about doing that is using an example of ordering a meal at a restaurant. I can order, let's say, the chicken entree. And then as the waiter is taking the orders around the table, I change from chicken, no, bring me the fish. Not a big deal. The waiter is going to cross off chicken and write down fish. If the waiter goes away, brings me back my salad, and I change my mind then, I say, hey, bring me the fish. Might not be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal if I've already taken three bites of the chicken. right? Or if he brings me the chicken. So yeah, we can change our mind, but there's a cost, right? And we want to educate stakeholders about that cost. They don't overdo it. Brian Milner (34:31) Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the leaders and the organization, managers, leaders, do you think this course is appropriate for managers and leaders to attend as well? you feel like they might need to in order to really have this be an impact? Mike (34:55) Yeah, that's a good question. Is it appropriate? Yeah, I think it's appropriate. When we do this privately, we've had plenty of leaders and managers attend. I think it's great. I don't think that's required because they're not on the Scrum team. You said the name of the course is working on a Scrum team. And so they're not on the Scrum team. They benefit by knowing more how their Scrum team works. But I think what we found is that having just a key subset of people who hear the same message work through the training together, and then go back to the organization. That's enough to bring the passion, conviction, and skills that we want. So we don't truly need leaders. They're great. I would never talk a leader out of going, but I wouldn't. If I were a team and I could take the class this month or with my leader next month, I would just get the class done, right? And educate the leader afterwards. Brian Milner (35:41) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good plan. All right, well then we've made our way through the five pillars and for people who have come this far with us and are at this point, if they're listening and they're recognizing some of these problems we've been talking about, what would you recommend to them as next steps here? Mike (35:49) if Well, take a look at our website. If you go to mountaingoatsoftware.com. And then I think there's a courses link on the top. You can go up there and find the link to this course. It's an exciting one that we're doing. I've literally been teaching this, I think the first time I taught a class called Working on a Scrum Team was 2003 or 2004. it's a time tested course. You and I kind of redesigned it a couple of months ago to make it appropriate for public. or little better just in general and more appropriate for public. But it's a time-tested course that's now designed to be available for public settings instead of, you know, have to have 25 people or something. Brian Milner (36:36) Yeah, yeah, that's really exciting. I can't wait to see kind of how people are in, you know, react and interact in the course to some of these concepts and ideas. And we'll, we'll of course link to all these things that we've talked about in our show notes and make it easy for everyone to find the course listing and, and, you know, where the dates and everything that we're going to offer them. So make sure to check that out. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. This has been really enlightening and I appreciate you making time for it. Mike (37:01) Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. Always a pleasure.

Time now for our daily Tech and Business Report. Today, the company behind M&M's and the Mars bar is teaming up with an agriculture gene-editing company to make cocoa plants that can better withstand the effects of climate change. For more, KCBS Radio anchor Holly Quan spoke with Bloomberg News Agriculture Reporter Ilena Peng.

06 Ago. 25 - Itaú é Top, Compre maisOlá, sejam bem-vindo a mais um Fechamento de Mercado, comigo Flávio Conde e Ricardo Afonso, hoje é 4a. feira, dia 6 de agosto, o programa de hoje é dedicado aos 2mil investidores que assistiram ontem o Fechamento e os que comentaram como CJMQ dec Cambuí MG, Marcos de Londres, Ortega, Morgana dívida da Klabin, Valdecy, Munhol, Elvis José Raízen não deve se recuperar, Mauricio Moura e Fernando Pereira fiz um MM para esse domingo de BBSE3, Eduardo Bruda, Carlos Arp, Gilson, Sarkis, JPDornelles trocar Taesa por Eletrobras?, Nicoletti. Veja no vídeo a análise de Itaú, RADL, PCAR e PRIO

Welcome back to the 241st episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 241st episode we bring you the third and final instalment of our very special three-part Toronto Fringe 2025 Review Roundup. Join Jillian Robinson, Mackenzie Horner, and Ryan Borochovitz as they try to blitz through the final fourteen shows they saw at this year's festival, unpack all of their thoughts, and commemorate this moment in local theatre history for posterity! Catch up on Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBoqIHnLCI And Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UkeDPQXM8w TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00:00 – Intro 0:05:31 – Singing Psychic Game Show 0:12:13 – This Show Will Change Your Life 0:19:20 – Potato Potato 0:26:48 – My Pet Lizard, Liz: The Shakespearean Existential Crisis that Led to His Ultimate Demise 0:35:32 – The Perils of Being Born in the Fall 0:43:38 – Don't Fall In 0:48:54 – Lucian, Plato, and the Secrets of the Pussy 0:55:27 – Regarding Antigone 1:06:11 – In the Diving Bell 1:16:48 – At the End of Kaliyuga 1:24:41 – Me and You and the Highland Coo 1:34:29 – Killy Willy 1:43:34 – David Lynch's Seinfeld 1:52:42 – Ctrl Alt Delete: An Alphabetical Musical 2:04:59 – Final Thoughts on Toronto Fringe 2025 2:11:04 – Sign Off Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuJillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz; see also, his article about clowns at the Toronto Fringe, published in Intermission Magazine: https://www.intermissionmagazine.ca/features/fringe-clown/ Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Join me, Danielle Ireland, on this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs as I chat with Jeanine Bobenmoyer, the founder of City Moms. Jeanine shares her journey from feeling isolated in a new city to building a thriving community for moms that is expanding nationwide. We dive into the power of community building, the importance of saying 'no,' and how City Moms grew from a local network to a national movement. This conversation is filled with heartfelt moments, laughter, and invaluable lessons on self-trust and service to others. Tune in to learn how Jeanine's mission evolved and how you can connect with this incredible community of supportive moms. Don't miss Jeanine's own 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs' moment—it's a story of transformation you won't want to miss!   00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 01:11 Jeanine's Background and City Moms Origin 02:46 Early Challenges and Community Building 04:39 Meeting Sarah and Business Growth 10:32 Drew Barrymore Show and Indianapolis Love 13:54 Content Strategy and Community Engagement 20:59 COVID Impact and National Expansion 23:05 Expanding the City Moms Community 24:17 Building a Female-Led Team 26:15 Listening to City Moms 28:50 Storytelling Over Sales 36:02 Launching a New Membership Experience 38:32 A Personal Story of Change 50:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts   RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON'T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS”  Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that's new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today.    DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.   Connect with Jeanine: Website: www.thecitymoms.org Join our membership waitlist: https://thecitymoms.org/join-waitlist  Instagram:@thecitymoms TikTok: @thecitymoms Pinterest: @thecitymoms  Connect with Danielle: Watch the show on YouTube Instagram The Treasured Journal Wrestling a Walrus Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:08] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. [00:00:13] And today I have the opportunity to sit down with city moms founder, janine Bobmeyer. Janine is a mom of teens, a yoga addict, a Michigan native, and an avid reader. Her dream vacation includes hiking in national parks with her family and a cup of hot chai. And do we get into the tea in this episode? [00:00:34] But RT is super heartfelt, heart led, and based on community building and vulnerability. If that's the stuff that you're into, then oh, you are gonna love this conversation. Of all the things I took from this episode, what Janine embodies and what you are able to learn from as well is what it means to trust yourself, and that in the process of honoring yourself, giving a wholehearted loving no or saying yes to adventure, it is leading you to something that is not only in service of you. [00:01:09] But in service of others. Janine has founded a community city moms and started as a local community that she built based on her own need in Indianapolis. But it has grown and it is popping up in cities all over the country. We get into the early days and please stay tuned if there was ever a, don't cut your own bang moment to really not wanna miss. [00:01:31] This is a good one. It actually, it bookends the episode perfectly because we start by talking about her business and the community and company that she started, but we understand the why, the deep, profound, heartfelt, why that inspired it all. What I believe to be true that when we act in service of ourself it ultimately rises everybody up with you. [00:01:56] Everything we have leaving up to it is also just equally beautiful, sweet, funny, and endearing. [00:02:03] Thank you for being here. Thank you, Janine, for this beautiful conversation. And I can't wait for you to sit back, relax, or put in your AirPods and go for a walk however you like to listen and enjoy. ​ [00:02:18] Danielle: Janine Bobmeyer. It's such a pleasure to have you on the Don't Cut Your Own Banks podcast. You are the chief executive officer and co-founder of City Moms, and it is the largest growing lifestyle brand in the Midwest. [00:02:31] So I am just so honored to spend some time with you and share all of what you do and what you offer women and mothers in the Midwest, to the Don't Cut Your own Bangs. Listeners, thank you for being here. [00:02:43] Jeanine: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. [00:02:46] Danielle: Yeah, so fun fact on how we connected, if I'm remembering this correctly, a couple of years ago, city moms reached out to me to feature Don't cut your own bank podcast in, one of your, articles or newsletters just featuring local podcasts in Indie. [00:03:03] And that was so lovely. That was at a time where I was just starting and didn't know who was listening. It was such a, it was so validating and a real confidence boost for me. So I first wanna just say thank you. [00:03:14] Jeanine: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I remember that article. We were. [00:03:18] Pulling, I think it was the top 10 podcasts you should be listening to in Indianapolis. Specifically founded by females. And you were one of the first that came to mind, because I know you were just launching at the time. You were like, well, hello. Of course you need to be listed on this. [00:03:32] Danielle: When you're just getting something off the ground, there is such a. There's so much space between where you are, right, where you imagine yourself to be or where you wanna be. [00:03:43] And whatever you can do to just keep getting one foot in front of the other, or even getting started takes so much energy and it's vulnerable. And so you and your best friend and business partner Sarah Hawker, are sitting on top of this really beautiful community that you have built. I think community building is just a magic skill. [00:04:06] And so I wanna go back to the early days of City Moms. You have some language on your site that I love. You need a village. We have it. Yeah, I was thinking that we don't need super women. We need supported women. Right. [00:04:20] I've also learned that what we offer others usually starts with the healing we need it. And so you're a mom of teens now? Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about like the origin of city moms and how you went from I'm imagining having a good idea with your girlfriend to sitting where you're sitting today, being featured on the Drew Barrymore show. [00:04:39] Jeanine: Yeah, I was new to Indianapolis in 2011, so we had moved to the city from Detroit. I'm originally from Michigan, but my husband's from Indy. And in moving here to be closer to his family, I didn't know anybody. And you know, my husband wonderfully, having grown up here, has a lot of friends that are still here, but he's like, let's go out with Davis and let's have, lunch with Johnson. [00:05:02] I was like, I don't wanna do any of that, like . I'm a mom and at the time I had a 1-year-old and a 4-year-old. So you're just trying to keep, your life together in those moments of motherhood anyway. So to be in a new city, and just not know One Soul was really, I mean, just adds more challenges on top of what you're already facing. [00:05:20] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:05:20] Jeanine: So we had been here and just before I moved, a friend of mine in Detroit said, have you checked out Meetup? And I was like, no, what is this? And so she's telling me about Meetup and you can go on, you can kind of filter based on your interests and find a local community. And so I did and I found a couple moms groups that were in the Indianapolis area. [00:05:43] I found that, most of the majority of moms communities that we find really across the nation, even today, are tied to one of two things. It's churches [00:05:51] Danielle: or it's schools. [00:05:52] And we [00:05:52] Jeanine: didn't have either. I decided that that was the moment to potentially launch, my own community. [00:05:58] One that was just open to all moms across Indianapolis, that didn't have those specific kind of school or church affiliation, and we had a hundred members sign up on the first day. [00:06:09] Danielle: Whoa. I I have to pause for just a moment. Yeah. So you were seeking to meet your own need. Yes. And I find that so interesting that's really telling about you. [00:06:20] Just as a person and how you move through the world is you saw a gap for your own experience and then immediately connected it to what? Like, how do I expand this beyond me? Yes. As opposed to like, how do I find my community? How do I find my people? You're like, oh, there aren't people or communities, so I'm gonna build one. [00:06:40] That's really interesting. [00:06:42] Jeanine: Yeah. And for me it was because, I desperately needed community. I desperately was seeking that out. I had never been, shy to creating that myself in prior iterations. I was coming out of the advertising industry in Detroit and even in this really large advertising agency, had found my little corner of people. [00:07:04] At the time, had founded a tiny, I forget exactly what we called ourselves, but we were almost like our cheerleading community of the agency itself, where we started to put on little events for this large agency. And it started just because, we saw that at the workplace, it was just constant go, go, go. [00:07:21] In advertising. And there wasn't that pause to connect with, you know, your your desk mate or a team member. And so that for me, is just something that I've always loved doing. [00:07:31] But in coming to Indianapolis recognized, I also needed a community here and without kids in school, without having a church home, without even having, a neighborhood that I was close to. Just that gap existed and I realized it was something I needed to fill. [00:07:48] Danielle: Yeah. And not only did you, it sounds like fill that for yourself, but then you met a need that many other women in the community had too. Now, how did this, so was Sarah somebody that came with you from Michigan? Did you meet her here? How did that connection happen? [00:08:04] Jeanine: Yeah, so Sarah, my business partner and one of my dearest dearest, I actually met her. [00:08:08] We've known each other seven years now. [00:08:10] Danielle: Hmm. [00:08:10] Jeanine: The city moms community. And membership was running for years. [00:08:15] Danielle: Oh. [00:08:15] Jeanine: I was introduced to her, through a mutual friend. It was such a funny experience because we were at this mutual friend's house for a dinner, and immediately upon meeting her I was like, well, this is someone I obviously need to know forever. [00:08:30] She just has one of the most dynamic personalities. She's so engaging. She just pulls you right in. And she asked me a question about, a dress I was wearing. It was from anthropology. And she was like, oh yeah, I have that dress. I think I have that in black. And you're, you wearing it in like a green. [00:08:45] And I was like, boy. Yes. [00:08:47] Danielle: Yes. It's like that scene in stepbrothers, it's like 1, 2, 3 anthropology. [00:08:51] Jeanine: Yes. Exactly. [00:08:52] Danielle: Exactly. And I [00:08:53] Jeanine: was like, oh, well, we're obviously besties. Yeah. Yeah. At the time, she was in the process of, quitting her nursing job. [00:09:02] Danielle: She said, [00:09:02] Jeanine: yes, I'm really, I think my last day is going to be August 31st, and that happens to be my son's birthday. [00:09:09] And she said, I'm just, I've been working so hard, I making this change. I'm going to start my own company. And I just, I've needed this push for a long time. And I said, I am going to text or call you on August 31st and find out how it's going. And she was like, are you really? [00:09:27] And so there we are two months later. I texted her and I said, how's it going? Did you start your own company? Are you making this next move? And she was like, yes. And this is amazing that you remembered. And we just have been close ever since. So she's one of my absolute favorite people, and as the city moms has evolved, so has her role. [00:09:47] First as a member, then she was a member of our content team, which I'm sure we'll chat about here a little bit. And now she's, my business partner. [00:09:55] Danielle: Wow. That's so beautiful. I find that, women who work together, play together, raise kids alongside each other, it's like in the way that women can change hats in life. [00:10:08] They can do that within relationships. I've just seen really well, is it, I think that there's that old paradigm of which I've never really bought into, which is, check your feelings at the door or leave work at the door. It's like we're all one person. The day where we have all these different parts and that's so beautiful. [00:10:26] How. That sounds like this friendship has grown as well as the business growth. [00:10:30] Jeanine: Yes. [00:10:31] Absolutely. And, you've hinted at the Drew Barrymore Show which was an opportunity that came out in COVID complete surprise. [00:10:40] Danielle: Yeah. [00:10:40] Jeanine: To receive an email from the producers in set by, actually this was like end of July, 2021. [00:10:46] And they said, with COVID having really tampered down, a lot of the programming we're able to do for this show, we're not allowed to travel as much. We are launching a new kind of mini segment inside the show itself. We would love to chat with you about the one that we would like to do in Indianapolis. [00:11:02] We noticed that you're based there. Would you have any interest? And of course, Sarah was my first phone call because [00:11:08] I just like, ah, I need someone to scream with for a moment. Yeah. And because we had no idea or context what the segment specifically was about. And so I called and scream with her and then, immediately called the producers. [00:11:19] And they said, well, what we're looking to do is have two best friends in the city showcase the city together. And what makes your city unique? [00:11:28] Danielle: I mean, who better to do it? [00:11:30] Jeanine: And we were like, Indianapolis is such a incredible city and community to begin with. In just the 14 years that we've been here to see the growth that this area has had. [00:11:40] Just all of the changes downtown, all of these incredible like national events that they bring in, like this weekend being WNBA All Star Weekend. [00:11:49] The city has just shown up for this. They've had the final four. They've had US Olympics pre swim trials. This city knows how to put on, a really incredible display on a national level. [00:12:01] Danielle: Do you know, what you're making me think about is, so in the work I do in therapy, particularly when I'm working, with someone on their relationship, that the longer you've been with someone, or, and you could even, insert really any topic, a job, a place you live in this case, a relationship, it's easy to take for granted what you think. [00:12:23] About them and you lose access to maybe the curiosity and the wonder that allows you to continue to discover. I have lived in Indianapolis my entire life. You mentioned living here 14 years, but when I was preparing for this interview and seeing all the places that you're highlighting, there are places I have never been, and I've been here my whole entire life. [00:12:44] Just because I think I know, like this is where I live. Of course, I know there is so much that I don't know and we're talking about community and we're obviously highlighting City moms, but I think that there are takeaways that can be applied to so many walks of life, which is just when you think you know something, for sure. [00:13:02] Allow yourself a little bit more space. There's this little bit room for a little bit more wonder and curiosity. [00:13:09] Jeanine: Yeah, absolutely. I think that takes it back even to the origin of the city moms, in a big piece of that mission was I wanted to get out and explore this new city and community that we were in. [00:13:21] Just didn't have the roots quite yet to do that. And I wanted to do it alongside people [00:13:25] as opposed to on my own. And, we're talking about all these big events that the city puts on. But the other beautiful thing is that the real fabric of the city lives in its people and those that are here, we see so many that are coming in from other communities. [00:13:41] We see a lot like you that have lived here for forever. But there's such an incredible mix of people in this city that really make it as special as it is. And I love that. [00:13:51] Danielle: Thank you that's such a great response. And your love for the city is so felt. And I, I'm curious about when you're in your content, which by the way, for any, everyone listening, everything is linked in the show notes, all the social media platforms, city moms, where you can join the wait list for their membership program. [00:14:09] All of that is accessible to you in the show notes. So press pause, sign up, follow all the things and then come back. 'Cause the other thing I love about your content is you layer in a lot of humor and, even though it's not maybe spoken this way, there's this quality of, yeah, girl, I've been like, this is messy. [00:14:28] And I'm also wiping up my own mess. I also have coffee stains. I also have food in my teeth. Can we just laugh at the ridiculousness of how hard this is sometimes? And I'm curious about how intentional is it? [00:14:39] Are there like pillars that you try to hit when you put content out? Like it must hit these notes and if so, I wanna know what they are. [00:14:47] Jeanine: Yeah, we really do because I think you're absolutely right for us. And I'll just share a little bit behind the scenes for the city moms, in terms of the tone and voice that we are always after in virtually every piece of our content. [00:14:59] I think this also comes out of my marketing and advertising background, but, the voice and the tone in the brand that we are always aspiring to be. Is your best friend growing up and your best friend growing up was the person you confided everything to Similar to me, screaming at Sarah about Drew Barrymore. [00:15:18] This is the pers there's your first call, that's your first call, your first text. But your best friend's sister, her older sister growing up was the coolest girl that you ever met. She was the girl that had the full pull out posters on her wall. She had the Dr. Pepper lip smackers, she was watching the Hills, and she was the girl that you're like, I wanna be her when I grow up. [00:15:40] She's the person that is just a few steps ahead from where you are , in your current life. [00:15:45] Danielle: Yeah. [00:15:45] Jeanine: stage. And you are constantly keeping an eye on her. That voice, that older sister is the one that we always aspire our city moms brand to be. Because we have been there, we have sat in those shoes. We have experienced a lot of the mess. [00:16:00] But that doesn't mean that we are completely. Removed and away from it. It means that we are just a couple days ahead of where our city mom might be and all of our content will always ladder into that voice to say, yeah, we know it sucks 'cause we've been there. [00:16:17] For us, I think what's so critical when we're selecting what content we wanna put out, so the humor that you see in a lot of our Instagram content . Is something that really is a great way to be super relatable and just, share a lot of those similar moments. The one we posted yesterday, [00:16:33] but, in case anyone wants to go back, either the reel that we posted yesterday is from a creator named Sam, and she's sitting on her bed thinking and speaking aloud saying, why did I say that I was so busy before I had kids? What was I even doing before I was a mom? And I think all of us in motherhood and truly in adulthood [00:16:55] Danielle: mm-hmm. [00:16:56] Jeanine: Have had that moment where even like, what did I do with my time? Like, what on earth was I filling my hours with? [00:17:02] That to be able to have kind of those humorous moments, I think is really critical to making sure that we're connecting with our City mom followers and, prospective, members too. [00:17:14] Danielle: That type of humor makes you feel seen. Yes. It helps you feel seen. And I think some, especially someone who like will grab the shovel and help dig into like the pits of experience with clients, some having the levity. If there was ever a myth I wish I could bust about therapy and community, whether it's group or a community like city moms or any extension when you find that type of connection, yes, you can have like with a best friend or a best friend's older sister, you can have those moments where it may be a tear or two are shed, but when somebody sees you. [00:17:51] There's laughter that happens in every therapy session that either I've participated in my own therapy or have led somebody else through. There is something about the truth, especially the truth that you try so hard to avoid or that this is the one thing I just need to keep tucked in my drawer and never let anybody see. [00:18:07] But then you see somebody else has it and you're like, oh, , you have that dress too. Oh my God. Yes, [00:18:13] Jeanine: yes, yes. Absolutely. And I think too, what's, really critical in doing that is just knowing that you are not living a path that is completely unpaved. [00:18:25] It is so hard in. Those moments when you've had two hours of sleep. It's so hard in those moments when you're like, are we ever gonna get past this phase? But I think what brings so much comfort along the way is knowing that there are other women that have done that. [00:18:38] And for us, that's why it's so critical to have a community that is supportive of each other and really allows you to be in those vulnerable moments with others. [00:18:48] Danielle: What do you think attracts people to you and to your organization? [00:18:51] Because like anything that you're highlighting could also be Googled. Yeah. But there's a way that you offer it and there's a way that you present it that is, it simplifies. It's reliable. There's like this bubbly, sparkling champagne effervescence to it. It just makes it a little shinier. [00:19:09] Jeanine: That's such a good question. I don't, there's some days when I'm like, I have no idea. You're like, we've been doing this for so many years, what are we doing? I really think it's because, and to use your phrase, feeling seen. [00:19:20] And feeling seen and being a part of an club that is all, inclusive and allows everyone to be a part of it. Even in some of our content where we're sharing events that we might have put on for just our membership, so not even just our social media, following our, editorial readers, the people that see us and broadcast and tv, but we do have this community of members as well. [00:19:42] So when we put on these membership events, that are a little more exclusive, we love to share those out with the phrase, steal this idea, because then it becomes less, this is only available to these specific women or these specific members and make it a, this can be your idea too. So steal this idea. [00:20:02] We ordered pizza and we set up a really fun style party, or picnic set up in a park and we didn't invite kids. It was just moms and we gabbed for the entire evening and we had a blast. Yeah, and you should steal this idea too, because it doesn't need to just be ours. [00:20:19] Danielle: I can feel now how that falls. [00:20:20] So in line with your idea of, we wanna be your best friend's, big sister, because that's what they would do. Listen, just take the shirt. You can keep it. It doesn't fit me anymore. I love that. Not only is it generous, but it speaks to, I think with time and experience you realize, oh, there's always gonna be more for me. [00:20:36] So why gate keep it like there's always gonna be more. So you just have some of this. You can share some of this magic. That's so beautiful. Has your mission changed? Since you first started, has it grown or is it kind of the same? [00:20:48] Jeanine: It's evolved. I mean, initially the mission and the focus was always just to create this membership community. [00:20:55] And that would be it. And we just had this, community of women here in Indianapolis. The change happened and evolved in COVID because as everyone knows, COVID forced so many of us home. That ability to connect in person no longer existed. In COVID, we held for our membership a daily call at four o'clock on Zoom that allowed our members to just get on and just have people. [00:21:20] We had moms that were like, I've been in my backyard all day. We had moms that were like, I cannot play with Play-Doh anymore. I just need to have an adult to talk to. It started. With the realization that we couldn't be together in person any longer and we needed to make a shift. [00:21:37] And in making that shift, what we found was that our brand exploded nationally. So it went from we are moms in Indianapolis, to, we are moms that everyone across the nation can now connect with because we are all living the same life together. And it never slowed down. So when we look at the breakout of our following in our audience right now, about 30% of that is in the Midwest and very quickly growing. [00:22:03] But the other pockets are New York. Texas, California. And, it just is such an incredible realization that, what started as this very local idea became a steal. This idea, let's all do this. [00:22:17] And on a much bigger scale. So, now we have this wonderful platform. Our number one driver is certainly Instagram because that's where we, I mean, as almost all women in our age group. [00:22:30] Yeah. We live, we love it. Yeah. So Instagram's kind of our number one. A channel, I would say our second is, broadcast tv. [00:22:38] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:22:39] Jeanine: So in COVID, a lot of broadcast stations around the country, also had to shift to a Zoom model and Yep. Desperately needed content. and started reaching out to us because we provided a lot of lifestyle content. [00:22:51] The here tips for keeping your kids, safe in the new COVID world. Here are tips for planning kids being at home during back to school. And it, we grew from that and we are now in nine different TV broadcast markets around the Midwest. [00:23:04] Danielle: Wow. [00:23:05] Jeanine: In addition to segments we do across the country. [00:23:07] Danielle: Those segments. I mean, not only are they, fun to look at, but they also provide great information. So when everybody listening goes to city moms.org, you'll be able to see all the media outlets that they've been on. [00:23:19] All those clips are saved there. It's like in this beautiful little library bank that you can watch. So it sounds like it's changed, it's grown rapidly. Beyond, or I would say even within the container of the community that you've created in Indianapolis, there's also a growing community for the business itself. [00:23:35] There's many direct reports and people who are working within the city moms organization, and also supporting in other ways. So I'm curious, just from a business owner standpoint, how has that, 'cause that, as your community expanded, it's also like the call's coming from within the house, there's growth happening inside too. [00:23:53] What has that been like? [00:23:55] Jeanine: It's been incredible. , Because again, we really thought that, in initially creating this community, we were going to live as a micro kind of nano events community would probably be the best way to put it. Or we put on events for our members and we would just keep putting on events for members. [00:24:09] And we had our social channels to share out some of that information. But I thought for a long time that it was just gonna be isolated in this teeny circle. And now, we have a extremely popular blog. We have a digital editor, an entire writing staff that works under her. We have a completely female, based staff. [00:24:28] Every member on our team is female. We've got this digital editor writing staff under her. We have a content team separate from the writing staff. They are the ones that go out and gather a lot of the content that we put across social and broadcast. We have project management team for all of our brand sponsorships that we work on. [00:24:47] Our newest hire is a Pinterest expert, which has been so fun. Pinterest is one of those sleeper cells that, not a lot of emphasis gets put on for lifestyle media brands, and we've decided to invest a person in that. She does a wonderful job at getting our editorial and our broadcast out in Pinterest. [00:25:06] And then, there's Sarah and I who provide leadership Sarah has been a co-partner now for, four months, or we're going into our fourth months together. So we're still figuring out those little funnels right now. We're just having fun, overlapping, and living everything together. [00:25:21] And where she was that first call, I made for the Drew Barrymore show, she's now my first call literally for everything. We've got this big event coming up on Saturday. We need to figure out, the backdrop we're gonna have behind that. [00:25:31] She called me yesterday and I said, Hey, work wife, because that's, we've definitely become for each other in addition to Best Friends. [00:25:38] Danielle: Yeah. Is it an instinct? Is it research? Is it a combination thereof of how you stay connected with what moms really need? Yeah. Is because , I'm a mom of littles. I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old and almost 2-year-old. He'll be two later in August. And I, I know my experience, but you seem to have a really strong sense based on the way people are really connected to this community, of staying connected with what mothers specifically really need. And I'm curious how you stay current with that, or is it more that the needs really haven't changed? [00:26:15] Jeanine: No, I think that, for us, because we have such a large staff, [00:26:20] and for the most part, the majority of those women are mothers. [00:26:24] Danielle: Yeah. [00:26:24] Jeanine: All of us are living a different little phase of motherhood. [00:26:28] I have teens, Sarah has 12, 10, and eight. Our photographer Brittany has four and two just like you. So everyone is living in a different stage and I think not only do we have each other from our team perspective but because we have our membership community who is most certainly living all of this. [00:26:47] We are able to lean on their experiences in addition to our own. [00:26:52] And then, one of the biggest things that I really implore our team to do is listen and constantly listen about what city mom and we call our avatar is city mom. And, regardless, again, if she's a member or if she's a follower of our brand and another channel, we call her city mom. So I'm always pushing to listen to city mom, listen to where city mom is right now, what things are the hurdles in her life, what she's up against. [00:27:19] And listening is the most important thing because the last thing that I wanna do in managing and running a brand and spearheading a brand is to not listen and just assume. I think when I also talk about voice, one of the biggest things that, we've talked about as a team as well, is I'm hearing a lot of we [00:27:39] and I'm not hearing enough of you. And by that I mean. We can't come out and say, we know that you're so tired. We know that you're doing all of these things and say, you're telling us that you're tired. You're telling us that you need some space or you need some tips on this. And by making that switch in kind of that voice that helps city mom understand that we are listening, [00:28:02] Danielle: Ooh. [00:28:03] That is a, that's a really powerful language shift. And it's amazing how adjusting a word from a we to a u can really make something washed and vague to very specific and like straight to the heart. I think that there's something too. The language of clarifying what is a really a we what is a you and it speaks straight to the heart of what I think we want, which is to be seen. [00:28:30] There's something about your community that doesn't beat you over the head with messaging. That's one thing that I was really impressed with , is that you get the sense of the essence of what you're saying, but there's not like a slogan. But the sense of the community is so clear. [00:28:47] Jeanine: Yeah. [00:28:47] Danielle: Which I find really beautiful. [00:28:49] Jeanine: I appreciate that. I think, one of the things that we've forever wrestled with was, is really that idea of sales. [00:28:56] I am, I and my team has heard me say this a number of times. I've always been a bigger fan of storytelling over sales and, storytelling kind of an experience as opposed to, you should buy in today. Deadline is this day, you gotta get in now, join here. This is the link. Because we get sold on almost everything across our lives. [00:29:18] And it's, something as little as, the gym to making a donation to a school, your kid's school to just, everything else you can think of under the sun. To me, it's important to continue promoting the essence of a community that you belong to as opposed to an idea that you need to buy into with dollars. [00:29:37] And, that's one of the reasons that we transformed the city moms into a completely free membership. [00:29:43] That also came out of COVID and hearing a lot of city moms say, I have to make some concessions right now. We had to shut off Netflix. We're not doing our Netflix subscription anymore because we're just so worried about budget. [00:29:56] And, that 9 99 a month that we were initially charging for membership, I was like, no. Done. That's out. [00:30:03] Danielle: Never [00:30:03] Jeanine: We will never go back to a paid membership. It will always be free because it needs to be accessible to everyone. [00:30:10] Danielle: So taking away a paid membership that sure, that money was budgeted and allocated for you to operate what you do, it sounded like it was absolutely the right call for your community and your business, but how did you know that that would work? [00:30:26] Or did you [00:30:27] Jeanine: It didn't. No. For a little bit it didn't work, and I'll say that because I think. A lot of us are parts of, Facebook communities that are very, spirited, maybe in some ways that, bring a lot of entertainment. And we were nervous that that would essentially be the transformation that we would undergo. [00:30:47] But, we have all members incoming. Agree to specific member guidelines. And, the number one guideline that is in there is every mom, parents in her own perfect way. And we use that specific language because, in some of similar to a lot of things that we've talked about, the fact is we're all doing our absolute best that we can. And you need to be able to have some space held for you to do that. [00:31:13] Rather than us identify our community based on your specific parenting model, we said, Hey, everyone is welcome here and we're going to honor you for being the parent that you are because we are all parenting in our own perfect way. [00:31:26] Danielle: Yeah. And nobody knows. Yes. No one has any, nobody knows. [00:31:31] That's always the gift of captain Hindsight, who comes in after a crisis and it's what should have happened? It's you know what studies are showing now. You're like, where were you before? I, I, so you talked about, advertising and with all of the products and content and methodologies that are targeted to parents, but more specifically moms, what are the values that you look for when you're filtering through? Who do you partner with? Who do you highlight? Who do you say yes to? Like, what's the value that you're really looking to offer? [00:32:02] Jeanine: I'm so glad you're asking that because, I think the space that we sit in. We often are, seeing a lot of influencers and content creators that they are really working hard to grow their brand and do that by signing with any partner that they can. And you find that there can be a real, I don't wanna say a moral gap because again, I'm just coming off saying everyone parents their own perfect way. [00:32:25] So everyone pulls content and creates content in their own perfect way. But, in, looking and evaluating the partners that we wanna work with, it's really critical to us that they offer a strong, supportive, product or experience for our members and for our followers. We do a lot of partnership with tourism, with attractions, that offer something for you to really be highlighted as the queen of your family. [00:32:51] 'cause you're like, Hey. We're gonna go to Nashville for the weekend, and I've been able to put together a whole itinerary, thanks to the city moms maybe tipping me off about a couple things. But now I've gone out and sourced this great itinerary, or I have been able to enhance our nursery because we found this one product that the city moms recommended. [00:33:09] All of that to say it's really important to us. We spend a lot of time vetting the products that we suggest we spend a lot of time working with or having conversations with the brands that we bring in. That's never just a, Hey, we want to, compensate you X and you guys promote us, and we'll be like, okay, perfect. [00:33:25] There's a lot of time that we spend really making sure that is going to make a lot of sense. In fact, one of my favorite things to say is, no, Sarah will tell everyone this. [00:33:33] Danielle: Tell me more about that. [00:33:34] Jeanine: Yes. Just did this yesterday. I love when we are being, approached by a particular brand or a client or prospective partner. [00:33:41] And I love going through that vetting process and saying, you know what? We spent some time looked into this and this isn't gonna work for us. Case in point, the brand I turned down yesterday is something that we actually use a lot. Sarah and I are big fans of a couple of their products. [00:33:57] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:33:58] Jeanine: And they approached us about a new launch they're doing and said, we would love to ship you, two of the new products, but we want all of this content, you need to send it to us for review. [00:34:08] You can only post on the dates that we want. You need to release it all to us that we can use it for our future advertising. By the way, the cost of the products that we're sending you in total is $300. And, the amount of media that was gonna be attached to that from our side was about $5,000. [00:34:26] We have a staff I need to pay, we have a team that, relies on us. We have a full following that relies on us to make sure that we're being authentic in what we are bringing forward. I talked to Sarah about it a little bit and I said, I'm gonna tell them no. And I'm gonna say there's a big value gap here. [00:34:41] Not just from the official bottom line kind of payment side of this, but also because I never wanna put someone into a brand consideration when that brand's not considering them. Just considering their own needs and their own drivers. [00:34:56] Danielle: Oh, that's so strong. And not an answer I expected, but when I so appreciated on a personal level, a professional level. [00:35:04] I don't know, if you've ever done Myers-Briggs, it's a test that Oh yeah. There's so many beautiful like personality assessment profiles, but I'm an extroverted, intuitive feeler perceiver, so I'm all the, ooey, gooey side, the mussies. And, when I see people who maybe from the outside seem to have a very discerning methodology for how they make decisions. [00:35:23] I find that so appealing because I'm such a heart led gut check, first kind of person, I don't always know why it's a yes or a no yet. It's like I feel it first, and then it works its way up into my brain and then whatever reasoning is sort of filtered through will come from that. [00:35:41] But I love that you saw value in yourself, how you believed in the value of what you offer, and you also saw the gap in representing that product or that brand, that didn't fully appreciate the value you were. I just, I love that answer so much. I'll be thinking about that after this, so thank you. [00:36:01] Jeanine: Yes, absolutely. [00:36:02] Danielle: Absolutely. You have a new membership experience starting. [00:36:05] We do very, very soon. This episode, I believe, will be being released mid-August, so, we could safely say it's live, what do you want people to know about what's coming and as far as what you can say, what do you want people to know so that if they wanna participate, get involved, they can. [00:36:23] Jeanine: So our new city moms membership is, officially launching to our, we will be, rolling it out to our existing members starting August 1st, and then it will be available to everyone starting, early September. [00:36:34] Danielle: Awesome. [00:36:36] Jeanine: So we are shifting into a different platform than we have used previously. It's called Circle and it's a wonderful space where we not only can have our full national city mom community, you're gonna find chat groups where you can connect with other city moms across the country there, because, me having like toddler woes in Indianapolis is no different from something having toddler woes in Seattle, Washington. [00:37:01] So why shouldn't you have access to that mom and her, lines of recommendation and such. So we'll have these national chat groups. We also have an opportunity, we'll be doing a lot of lives inside the community that are member exclusive, that we can connect you to some of these, brands and partners that we work with. [00:37:17] And then we are doing nano communities inside of that so that you can hyper connect with women inside your own city. So Indianapolis obviously will be our first big pilot there, but we have Dallas and Cincinnati that are also existing inside, that nano community area. And we have, three other cities that we think are going to be quickly following in 2026 as well. [00:37:40] Danielle: That's so incredible. Congratulations. It sounds like your own city mom social network. Yes. Yes, it totally is. I'm excited for everybody who's an existing member to get to benefit from that. And then the new members who continue to join to get involved in that. [00:37:55] That's incredible. [00:37:57] Jeanine: Thank you. Yeah, it's been one of Sarah's biggest passion projects as she's been getting her feet wet and she's done an incredible job with it. The other really exciting benefit is there are perks, not only for our national members, but then in your hyper local communities too. [00:38:11] So, here in Indianapolis, we've got some great perks with, the Ile Jordan Museum, with the Children's Museum, even dry bar, face Foundry, 'cause we need space for us too, all of those exclusive perks will be part of that too. [00:38:25] Danielle: Beautiful. So not just stuff for the family, but also like ways for moms to take care of themselves too. Exactly. Gorgeous. Yes. Well, Janine, I would be remiss if I signed off without asking you about your, don't cut your own bangs moment because I, it is good. So if you are good taking it away, I would love to hear [00:38:43] Jeanine: yeah. I just wanna tell you, I love this so much. I've listened to so many of your other podcasts and these are the moments I just feel like really are the ones that sit with me the most so I'm so thrilled that you have this as kind of just, that final vehicle to the podcast content. [00:38:59] But mine's a little different because there is, a little sadness tied to it, but it brings a great lesson. [00:39:05] Danielle: Yeah. [00:39:05] Jeanine: So I had mentioned that I worked in advertising for 10 years. I worked on the agency side and I was working in Detroit at the time. And I had a newborn. My daughter was a newborn, and then I had my son who was three years old at the time, and my client was based out of Germany. [00:39:25] It's a very large grocery chain that happens to be based in Germany and they have a lot of outputs here in the US And at the time, we were all going through just a horrible recession in the world. And I was working about 60 to 70 hours a week. Advertising is one of those, especially on agency side. [00:39:44] It's one of those industries. It is go, go, go. And it is never stopping. My husband also works in advertising. It's actually how we met. He at the time was doing about 90 hours a week. We never saw each other, we rarely saw the kids. So my day normally started around 3:00 AM because that's when the German, office was open. [00:40:03] And it normally coincided with the time I was feeding my newborn in the middle of the night. So I would have my phone with me, feeding her, scrolling through email and catching up with the German team, put her back to sleep. Then, I would get up around six when my toddler was awake and finally get the two of them off to daycare. [00:40:18] And I made the decision, which a male boss of mine later told me was selfish to go work out at a gym that was halfway between daycare and, work every day. So I didn't get into the office until around 8 45. Technically our office started at nine. I would work absolutely all day and then race out of my office at 5 51 because if I could leave at 5 51, I could literally run down the street to our parking garage, get in my car, drive as fast as I could at daycare and be there before the seven minute grace period was over. [00:40:50] Danielle: You had it down to the minute? [00:40:52] Jeanine: Down to the minute and. It was coming at a time where it was just, I was so burnt out. My husband was so burnt out this one day I got to daycare. My kids were always the final ones getting picked up. And I had a phrase for my toddler at the time where I'd always say, mommy always comes back. [00:41:11] I would say that to him every morning when I dropped him off. And I ran into daycare this day and my son was crying. I could hear him in the toddler room. So I grabbed the newborn. She was already in her carrier. And then I went in to pick him up and he's crying. And I said, honey, I'm here. [00:41:26] And I got down and gave him a hug. And I said, sweetie, what do I always say? Mommy always comes, Ooh, this makes me tear up. Even think about all this years later. And he goes Last, mommy always comes last. And that was the most soul crushing thing I had ever heard in my life. And I cried the entire way home. [00:41:47] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:41:48] Jeanine: And we put the kids down to bed after dinner and after their bath, and I turned to my husband, I said, we cannot do this anymore. I'm done. We're done. We can't keep this schedule going. This is just, this is not gonna sustain us anymore. And we made the decision that night that was the end of this work experience for us. [00:42:08] And, we immediately put resumes and feelers out and that is what made, the transition to Indianapolis possible. It took months, but we eventually found ourselves here and it was the best decision that we ever made. [00:42:21] And what it all came down to was in my don't cut your own bangs moment, was it is okay to say no. It is okay to take that stop. And is it okay to invest in yourself and your family if that's what really matters to you? I think maybe that's what the critical note is. It's okay to invest what matters to you. [00:42:39] To me, that has always been the moment that I have seen as a turning point and, has really been probably the most critical thing for me. [00:42:48] Danielle: Thank you so much for that story that my whole body, it was waves and waves went through, with that and you, when you said it earlier in the interview, but I can really feel the truth of that in a different way. [00:43:05] That you love saying no. Yeah, because I think what I hear in that is it's a fully embodied no is also a yes to something else. [00:43:17] Jeanine: Yes, [00:43:18] Danielle: it is its own. Yes. Like I'm saying no to this offer to position your brand. And I'm saying yes to my integrity. I'm saying no to the needs and the demands that this company and this industry has for me and my life. [00:43:35] And I'm saying yes to my son. Yeah, my infant, like I'm saying yes to me. Oh, I, that reminded me, I hadn't thought of this in so long, but it brought me back to when I. Made the decision to start my, when my husband and I made the decision to start to try to get pregnant, the journey was, knowing what I know now, far less complicated than it is for many. [00:44:01] But it didn't happen the way I thought it would. And that is almost always where suffering comes from me. When there's an unmet expectation and I could, you're taught your whole life. It's like if you look at a penis or sit on a toilet seat wrong you never know how you're gonna get pregnant. So when you first start trying it like, what do you mean it didn't happen right away? What do you mean? My first pregnancy I was a new-ish therapist. I think I had been practicing for, I'm gonna say two and a half, two and a half-ish years, three, maybe three. [00:44:28] But I had, the process of going back to grad school, finding I didn't have the credits I needed to even qualify to apply to the grad program. All of this work and effort. It was like once I set my sights on, I think this is something I want for myself, there was almost immediately after, oh my God. [00:44:46] But I figured that out so late in life and I gotta go, go, go, go, go. So I burnt myself to a crisp getting through all of the hoops I needed to get through to do the job. And I didn't realize the grind on my body, on my mind, on my life. I just didn't see it. I joked that it felt like the road runner and coyote running off the cliff and you didn't realize you were over the cliff until you looked down and my moment of looking down and falling was when I lost that first pregnancy. [00:45:14] And, I don't blame myself for it. It's not that. But there was a clarity in the grief and I think the grief I felt in my own body. Yeah. Your son spoke his truth to you. I felt like my body was, the grief in my body was revealing a truth to me that I wasn't willing to see, which was [00:45:36] there's no room for me in this life that I've built and I have to cut back. And it brought up like being a good girl, being a strong woman, being a strong feminist, being a diligent employee, being reliable, all of these roles and these external things that I was chasing in the pursuit of being really good at my job. [00:45:58] Mm-hmm. That loss was just, oh, actually none of this matters as much as I thought it did. Not that it doesn't matter, but it didn't matter because I thought it did and my hours cut dramatically back and it didn't work for the practice that I was working for before the hours that I would be willing to do. [00:46:18] But then I realized with my husband's support that, oh, I actually can go out on my own. And life has unfolded. It wasn't like magically overnight any more than city moms was created magically, overnight. But it got you to Indianapolis. Mm-hmm. It's like the breadcrumb trail that you were following to freedom led you to something so beautiful that you probably couldn't have imagined at that day at your son's daycare picking them up. [00:46:43] Jeanine: Absolutely. And I think, it's kind of the power of listening and that's one of the things I love so much about your podcast is being able to listen to the other stories that come from your guests and really, that you have the ability to tease out such a gift and clearly the path that you have followed has allowed you to be there too, in, that space of, [00:47:05] beauty and it's just, it's wonderful. [00:47:08] Danielle: Thank you. Thank you, Janine. Thank you so much. I'm going to bring us to a close 'cause we can't get any better. That was so, great. I will definitely encourage, again, for everybody listening to please visit the show notes before you click back into your life and take your AirPods out or, get off of your walk or wherever you are in life. [00:47:29] Like to hop over the show notes, check out city moms, follow them on social media. They make it very easy to find what you need to know, so all the places you can follow them. [00:47:37] But thank you again. Thank you. Thank you Janine. And, [00:47:40] Jeanine: Thank you so much for having me. [00:47:42] ​ [00:47:42] ​ [00:47:44] ​ [00:48:52] ​ [00:50:11] Thank you so much for joining me in this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. Before you hop away, please check out the show notes, everything that we mentioned here in this conversation, as well as links that you can stay connected with me. As well as everything needed to connect with city moms. Please remember to rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. It helps the podcast grow. It helps other people find this that could benefit from it too. Thank you so much for being here. [00:50:37] Your attention means the world, and I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

Ped, Burk and Timmy welcome on Burk's classmate, Grace, to open the show, to discuss their recent 20-year reunion, or lack thereof. Grace also answers the hard hitting 90s girl questions before she leaves us. The boys then discuss drive thru etiquette, Adam wanting to grow his beard out just so he can have the full barbershop experience, Adam has found the holy grail of pizza, and Burk's perfect song. For the Meat, Mm!, the guys give their Mt Rushmore of "All-Time Wrestling Moments" in honor of Hulk Hogan. Take a walk with us to the 90s boys bedroom to close the show. Love y'all. Hut Hut.

The city's restaurant industry is showing signs of stress. Crain's Forum editor Cassandra West talks with host Amy Guth about the sector's many migraines.Plus: Chicago stands to win — and lose — in the rail industry's first coast-to-coast merger, AbbVie raises guidance as key drugs and pipeline deals boost growth, Illinois co-leads states' lawsuit against Trump administration's transgender care crackdown and M&M's owner is helping a premium chocolatier crack the U.S. market, starting in Chicago.

On this episode we get to meet Andra Wochesen, a teacher and then a coach. Andra received her college degree in kinesiology education. What is kinesiology, you may ask? Physical education. Andra will tell us more and how she progressed from years of teaching to coaching to help “entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact”. Andra focuses today on helping people understand themselves and their lives. She uses tools such as examining Akashic Records. We get to learn in detail what Andra does and how she accomplishes helping people gain insights into their existence and how to move forward.   I hope you find Andra's time with us informative and instructive.     About the Guest:   Andra supports entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction, so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact. Purpose, Power & Presence.   Along with a 25 -year background in kinesiology and education, Andra is multi-certified as a coach, with enhanced training in energetic and embodiment techniques, including Law of Attraction, Reiki, Akashic Records, Tapping and Quantum Flow.   This unique combination of skills coupled with her intuitive and innate understanding of the body and energy and ability to uncover dormant soul gifts, allows her to support her clients in a deeply integrated way, creating lasting change and expedited results.   She has recently received a breast cancer diagnosis and is truly being asked to walk her talk as she faces the unexpected and a lot of unknowns. Part of her mission and purpose is to share her journey to support others, and though this is health related, how to apply this to any path people are currently walking. Ways to connect with Andra:   Website: https://www.andrawochesen.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andra-wochesen-purposepowerpresence/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andra_energycoach/# You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrawochesen To your listeners, here is a link for my Personal Power Activation Series https://andrawochesen.simplero.com/personalpoweractivation     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:28 We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us or watch us and our guest Andra Wochesen who is going to talk to us about a variety of things, and one of the things that I will tell you is she has a degree in kinesiology, and she'll have to define that. I'm not going to, although I now know what it means and I know how to pronounce it, mostly because she told me. But I really am excited to have her be on the podcast today, because one of the things that I really enjoyed about and it's not necessarily the most enjoyable subject, but because of the things that she has done now in her life, she is facing personal tests to prove that what she teaches and coaches is real, because she's having to go through some of it, and I know that she will talk about that a little bit later. We'll get to it. But Andra, I want to thank you for being on a stoppable mindset.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:21 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm so happy to be here, and so love what you're about and how you show up in the world, and I'm so happy to be connected with like minded people making an impact, and happy to be connected to your audience. And I hope something I share today will be of service.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Well, I hope so, and I think that, we usually find that it is and we're we're really glad you're here to share it, which is as good as it gets. So I'd like to start by maybe learning about the early Andra growing up and so on. Why don't you tell us about some of that and kind of how that led you to maybe some of the things that you're doing now? Sure, sure.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:58 Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm the end places that I'm a coach, and I work with embodiment and energy. And I think the first years of my life were me being a very active child, being very adventurous, loving to have new experiences, very much being athletic. I was a competitive gymnast in my younger years. And yeah, I think I really enjoyed being in my body and using my body as a vehicle to sort of express myself. So, definitely active, definitely adventurous, definitely independent. And yeah, really enjoyed the experience of, yeah, going new places, seeing new people, and doing some things that challenge my body in big ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 So what made you deviate from going into competitive gymnastics?   Andra Wochesen ** 03:51 Oh, I wasn't good enough. Oh, okay, yeah, I was good enough for where I was, but yeah, it was enough. I think, yeah, I think I stopped that around 11 or 12. Actually, it's quite a it's quite a vigorous sport. And yeah, I was quite aware of my capacity and my desire, actually, to, it takes a lot to get to that, to the caliber of like, Olympic athlete or something, right? So that wasn't, I wasn't good enough, and I didn't have, didn't desire to go down that path   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 well. And that's, of course, a significant part of it is there's a lot that you have to desire to do to really go down that path in whatever sport or whatever you want to compete in and be about. So I understand,   Andra Wochesen ** 04:35 yeah, yeah, yeah, that commitment and choice and yeah, I think, as you speak, about unstoppable, right? There is an element that requires so much conviction on our end to be able to really commit and follow through with whatever it is that we are wanting to follow through and commit with.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Well, so you say, around 11 or 12, you decided. That you weren't going to continue down that. What did you   Andra Wochesen ** 05:04 do? Oh, I mean, I continued to still be athletic and still played. I still did gymnastics. I was, you know, still quite good at it, so I did that through high school, but played a variety of other team sports. And I think, yeah, maybe define myself less on the athleticism, but still included it, and sort of brought in more of some other interests. I think that I had maybe more around, yeah, just travel friends. I mean, that's what you do in high school and university.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 So where did you go to university? I   Andra Wochesen ** 05:39 went. I'm in Canada. So I went to McMaster, yeah, which is in Hamilton. It's a great school. Now, where is that? That's in Hamilton, which is I live in Toronto now. So Hamilton is about 45 minutes away. Hamilton is between, let's say, Toronto, Niagara Falls, the main cities, you would know. So, yeah, I went to McMaster for four years for my phys ed kinese degree, and then I went to Queen's University for my teaching degree. So that's sort of my educational background.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So you you got a teaching degree, did you want to go off and be a teacher? Or what did you want to do exactly? Or did you know   Andra Wochesen ** 06:15 I was a teacher? I did very strategically choose in my growing up, I think being athletic, I also coached teams. I also was a camp counselor, so I was very much involved in guiding other people. So I think especially in athletic pursuits, and even I mentioned this, even I did volunteer at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and was a runner for someone there, helped them run track. So I think going into teaching, and especially phys ed teaching, made perfect sense. So I did. I did do that for 10 years, and then moved on to some other things.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 So how long ago was it that you were a runner at CNIB, that   Andra Wochesen ** 07:01 was a long time ago. That was like, 30 years ago. Yeah, yes, that was like, sort of in my, I don't know, maybe early 20s, something like that. Okay, tell,   Michael Hingson ** 07:11 tell us a little bit more about how that. I'm just curious how that process worked. So you, you worked at the you volunteered at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and you and so people wanted to run. And how did, how did you make that work?   Andra Wochesen ** 07:26 So I was a guide runner. So I think I did a very, very I work with different people. There various people. And I think one, one of the young men really wanted to run track, and they had a big event at, I believe, was Variety Village, I believe. And so it was he wanted to do, I think it was 400 meters again, excuse me, it's been a long time. So it was a run. And so, yeah, to be able, I was a guide runner, so I ran, held his hands, but he obviously did the work and ran. But I was there as a as a runner to support that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 But you had to be able to run fast enough to keep up with whatever speed he was in produce, yeah, for   Andra Wochesen ** 08:05 sure, absolutely, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:09 yeah. I know people in the United States who are blind runners and do work with with people to guide. And of course, that's the whole point. But obviously, the the guides have to be in good enough physical shape also to make sure that they're able to let the person run at their own pace and hopefully set world records. I don't know who has but you know, nevertheless,   Andra Wochesen ** 08:35 yes, to let them have their full self expression right of what they were wanting to do, and your eye was just there on the side to make sure that he was able to run as fast as and get where he wanted to go and achieve the results he wanted to achieve.   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 Could when you were when you were acting as a guide. How did that work? That is to say, I'm assuming that the person couldn't necessarily run totally on their own. How did, how did you keep people running straight or where they needed to go again?   Andra Wochesen ** 09:09 It's a long time. I believe it was just hands right, and my hands in front, so that, or maybe at the side right, just so that there was a hand. There was a tactile component. It wasn't voice. It was definitely cut, so it was just more like guiding, to make sure that he was able to stay no well, he knew when to start, but to stay within the lines to be able to follow the track, and then obviously, to be able to cross the finish line.   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 Yeah, because they, they didn't have ropes or anything between lanes that he could follow. So he needed a person, or she, depending on who you guided, they needed your assistance. Because the bottom line is that the the tracks don't have ropes or anything like that to divide the various lanes. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 09:54 yes, yeah. So it was, there may be different things. Now, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 aware that there are. But I'm not a runner, so   Andra Wochesen ** 10:01 yeah, yeah. So it's a very Yeah. It's a very Yeah. I've been involved in that sort of stuff, whether it's been volunteer or paid in my whole life, basically helping other people to sort of reach their goals and to fully self Express. And so I think that's, you know, definitely been a piece of what's led me to the work that I do today. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 10:27 So, so you taught, where did you teach? For 10 years,   Andra Wochesen ** 10:32 I taught mainly. I taught in middle schools. I was, yeah, thanks. So I taught grade seven and eight. Mostly grade seven, little bit of grade six. I last year I taught grade four. I taught phys ed. The whole time I was like the the head of phys ed, so I coached all the teams and organized the track meets and did things like that. But I also had an under second teachable of French. So I actually taught French as well as math and English. You know, those weren't my favorite, but I Oh, yeah, I did love teaching, yeah, phys ed and health health, actually, I loved because that's very much like, it's kind of like coaching, right? It's actually helping, yeah, I love those, those classes as well, with that age group.   Michael Hingson ** 11:16 Now, my wife, my late wife, was a teacher for 10 years, and she always said that the students she liked best were third graders, because they were old enough that they could make some decisions, but they were also young enough that they were able to be influenced, and they hadn't got so set in their ways that they were problem students like even from fourth grade on, did you have a favorite grade?   Andra Wochesen ** 11:43 Yeah, not grade seven. That's why I'm not doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 So I would agree with you,   Andra Wochesen ** 11:49 yeah, so that was the bulk of my teaching career was grade seven. So they're not easy, and they don't necessarily want to be there. So yeah, it didn't feel like the most aligned path. I was actually certified to teach high school, but it was very hard to get into high school teaching here. And I think if I would have, I probably would still be doing that, because it's a little bit more pure in the phys ed component. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 well, the you know, I wanted to be a teacher, and ended up going in different directions anyway, but still, I think that I do get to teach. And I think even this podcast offers teaching moments which is, which is pretty good, but I appreciate what you and Karen, my wife, say about all of that, because it is a it is a big challenge. Do you think that one of her comments and was that parents aren't really becoming as involved as they should be, and so they they kind of treat teachers like babysitters, and then the kids go home and they do whatever they're going to do, but they don't really as actively provide a lot of the guidance that they should. Did you find that up in Canada as well?   Andra Wochesen ** 13:05 I would say again, it's been 20 years now. Say that for the most part, it just really depends. Like, a lot of parents were very engaged and very and then I think, yeah, there were kids that were challenging at school because they didn't have a lot of structure or support at home. So it's a, it's a, it's a, really a. It's a privilege to be a teacher, to be taking, not necessarily taking care of people's children, but you are, on some level, being an influence for them. And so yeah, I would say for the most part, there was a lot of parental support, but I know that's not always the case, and I do think, yeah, there's some kids who had not very much parental support and required more at school.   Michael Hingson ** 13:52 Karen had challenges with a lot of kids until she realized something, and I don't even remember what caused it to happen, but she taught at a school where, as she put it, there were a lot of latch key kids. That is, they they were really responsible for themselves. The parents worked and so on. They went. The kids went home at the end of the day, and they were on their own. And when she realized that kids weren't going home necessarily to total parental supervision and so on, and that they in fact, the children were learning how to be responsible to a large degree on their own. That kind of changed her view and the way she interacted with kids, and apparently became a whole lot more effective and a whole lot more of a teacher who could exert a positive influence on the kids.   Andra Wochesen ** 14:46 That's great. I mean, I think ultimately, we're all sovereign beings, even if we're children. And I think, yeah, whatever situations we are, sort of handed Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Um growth in that, and I think being able to support that is what we're what we're here to do, whether we're a formal teacher or a guide or a podcast host, right? We're all here to sort of meet people where they're at and also in their greatness and also in their challenges, and then also in their capacity.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 People are where they are, and we don't really have the right, much less all of the gifts to necessarily force people to change how they behave and so on. And I think the best that we can do is to try to set positive examples and and either people will see that, or kids will see that, or they won't.   Andra Wochesen ** 15:43 Yeah, one of the biggest things, and you know, it's part of the work I do now around seeing people's gifts. That's part of the akashics work that I do. But I know, even as a teacher, one of the greatest strengths that supported me was that I chose to focus on the strengths in the children and really reflect that to them, and have them see that within themselves. And everybody has different approaches. Some people would be focused on, like, you need to improve here. This needs to happen. And of course, I think we all have areas of growth and improvement, but I believe, and I've seen, I've literally been in this field for 30 years, whether it's teaching, you know, young people or adults, we I have found that most people thrive when they're recognized in their greatness and their gifts, not in their areas of weakness. How do you do that? How do I do that? So, I mean, I think I did it innately. When I was a teacher, I just intuited that that was the it's easy. We can all see people's gifts, and we can all choose to focus on those gifts. We can do that in our personal relationships. We can choose. We always get choice in terms of what we focus on. So I believe that there's we all have that innate ability, whether we exercise it or not, is is up to us. And then I have, you know, certified in some different modalities that help me help people uncover what some of those gifts are. I originally did something called the Passion Test, where I help people really distill what their true passions were. And so that's a really, really helpful tool. And then I also do Akashic Records, which is like a an energetic database, which we can talk about further if you want or not. Doesn't matter, but it's, it's a I'm able to access people's records for them and really discern what their top level gifts are, and then share that with them. And so when I'm sharing it with them, it's not usually like they have no idea they most people know what their innate gifts are, but when it's reflected in a certain way from a soul level perspective, it's a very validating experience, and it helps to reignite those gifts in people, so that they are then very self aware of what those gifts are and how they can use them to both impact their themselves and their career and their family, right? There's there's lots of ways to apply our gifts if we really tune in to what they are,   Michael Hingson ** 18:18 whether it's children or adults, there's always a lot to be said for the whole concept of validation. If you are really validating someone, especially when you're dealing with their gifts and you're validating them, you're praising them, you're encouraging them for what they are and what they do, that has to count for a lot. I would think.   Andra Wochesen ** 18:38 I think so. I think you're speaking to a deeper level than the ego or the mind. You're actually speaking to the depth of some who someone is, and they feel that. And there's a, there's a, I'm going to say, like an embodied response to that. There's a deep feeling.   Michael Hingson ** 18:56 Well, so you taught for 10 years, and then what, what made you decide to deviate from just being a professional teacher in the classroom, as it were, or or going around the field, running,   Andra Wochesen ** 19:08 yes, chair, yeah, I felt like actually had a bit of a rough I'm not, I don't need to get into that. But it was, I had a tough year about year seven or eight, and it just kind of flipped the dial for me in terms of, I'm not sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. So I did stick it out for a couple more years. It's a lot of education and a lot of experience that I was working with, and so I did try some different things, taught different grades, but ultimately I realized that it wasn't, it was a little soul sucking for me, and in some ways, and I knew that there was more or a better way for me to actually use the gifts that I have. And so I just, I chose to to leave, which is not that common. I know it's a little different. Different in the US in terms of teaching and salaries and things like that. In Canada, I would say it's a very, it's a very good profession to be in. It's a very, it's a good salary. It's so it wasn't easy to leave it, but my higher knowing knew that it was the right thing for me to do.   Michael Hingson ** 20:20 So what did you then go do?   Andra Wochesen ** 20:23 So then I went, I became a Pilates instructor, and so that is movement education. And so I got to use my phys ed background and my kinesiology background to work with bodies. And I also trained the new teachers. Because, yeah, I had an expertise in teaching, and so I was a trainer of teachers. So yeah, I was involved in certifying new teachers. So yeah, did that, and then I worked one on one with clients, which was a really nice change for me, coming from a classroom of 30 people, being able to work with people in a one on one capacity and just have that so that felt very Yeah, it felt very aligned for me to be able to have a one on one connection and to be able to serve people really deeply, and yeah, I didn't have to mark tests and all that kind of stuff, right?   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 There's something to be said for that, yes, for sure, and you didn't have to make out report cards at the end of the year. Yes, yes, yeah. There's a   Andra Wochesen ** 21:27 lot of work that goes in there. You know, people talk a lot about summers off, but there's a lot of stuff that happens that is quite, quite labor intensive in teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 21:37 My niece is a kindergarten teacher. Actually, this year she's teaching pre kindergarten, but she would definitely agree with you, and talks about all the things that they have to do during the summer and all the preparation and and more important nowadays, at least down here, the amount of money that she has to spend out of her own salary just to buy supplies that the school district, for whatever reason, doesn't have funding to provide, and the teachers spend a fair amount of money keeping their students engaged with the things that they have to buy, that they know that the students need, but that the district doesn't provide.   Andra Wochesen ** 22:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that just, I can't speak obviously, to your country and how you do things, or what, what the what's involved. But I think it speaks to the desire that I'm going to say, all people have to support others. But I think teachers specifically, not even specifically, but teachers do have a big passion for helping people. And so I think that just speaks to the level that they're willing to go to in order to really support the next generation. So I think there is such a there's such a gift in and I hope that more and more people will appreciate teachers, because I think it's they are very vital, I think in shaping lots of things so well.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 I think to at least a degree, most people like to teach that is to say they, if somebody asks them a question, Will will take the time oftentimes, to answer. They'll explain why they do what they do, or they'll explain whatever the question is about. I know, when I was in professional sales and managing a sales force, one of the things that I told every person that I hired was, for the next year, at least, you're a student, don't hesitate to ask questions, because the people who are your customers and your clients, if you're asking good, intelligent questions of them, they will want to answer you and engage you, and that can only help you. And what it what you do further down the line with them as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 23:52 Yeah, I think, I believe that we're all here to light the path for those behind us in whatever way we choose to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. And it is a, it is an art to do it well. And not everybody is a great teacher, but I think a lot of people do like to import, impart knowledge, at least to some degree, which is great, sure. Yeah. So you are Pilates instructor for a while, and then what did you do? Well?   Andra Wochesen ** 24:19 Then I Yeah, again, my soul always wants to expand, and I think that I felt like it was good, but it wasn't the full use of my gifts. And so that's when I sort of went down the coaching path. I realized I liked the one on one connection. I realized I'm very intuitive in general, but very intuitive with the body. So when I was working with my Pilates clients, I was able to almost tune into sort of, I'm going to say, even emotional blocks. Or I could tune into why their bodies weren't functioning the way they wanted to function. And so it just naturally evolved into desiring to bring a coaching element into the work that I did. And so for a number of years, I did both. Growth, and then after about 15 years of being at the teaching Pilates, I decided to just transition full time to coaching. So that's what I've been doing for the last, I don't know, five or six years full time   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 well, so tell us more about that. What you do, and I know you've talked and referred to a few times the Akashic records and so on. So don't hesitate to talk about some of that as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 25:26 Yeah, I think really what I do is help people connect to their innate power and their innate presence, so that they and their deepest gifts. So those are probably the deepest things. Purpose, power, presence is sort of how I label it, and within that, it's their sole gifts, what they're here to do, what their purpose is, what they want to really contribute on the planet. That's really who I'm helping so often it's entrepreneurs, sometimes it's leaders, sometimes it's high profile people in their industry, and so really I'm helping them connect to the depth of who they are really so that they can express that in the work that they do. So for some people, yeah, it's a it's about creating a bigger presence, a bigger platform, creating more impact, getting in front of more audiences, being able to command higher fees. All of this comes from a deep connection to your own knowing of who you are and what you how you're designed to serve. And so I really that's the it's the crux of what I do is you can hopefully see the thread throughout my whole life is really around helping people connect to who they really are at their core, how, what their innate gifts are, how they want to share those gifts, and how they can use those gifts to not only create a better, more aligned or whatever, what's what I want to say, prosperous life Experience for themselves through I love working with people who want to do what they love, right? That's really people who are trailblazers, people who want to create a new path, people who want to create meaning, want to create impact. And that's it's a I love it, and it's not an easy path. And so I really help people break through anything, holding them back from really going for it, because so many people that I work with, we are blazing new paths. Right? You do have to sell yourself. You do have to make your own opportunities. You do have to create your own platform. You have to do that in your podcast, right? There's everybody is we are here to do, I think this is what we are all here to do, is to really share our gifts in the biggest way possible. And yeah, sometimes people need help to be able to show that fully and to be able to shine as brightly as they're designed to to shine so that they can, yeah, receive Yeah, bigger opportunities, bigger platforms, more ability to continue on the path that they're on.   Michael Hingson ** 28:03 Do you find that there are a number of people who don't really know where they want to go or what they want to do? They're they're kind of being a little bit more aimless than they really need to be.   Andra Wochesen ** 28:17 It's interesting. I'm sure there are. When I first started, I was more of a life purpose coach, so I did, did sort of interact with people who are kind of lost and maybe a bit directionless. And so I think absolutely there, I don't even like that word that sounds very judgmental, right, just unsure of what they want to do. And so I think absolutely there are lots of people, and what I believe, and what I see now is that people wouldn't, who come to me wouldn't say that they're lost, but they something's not quite working, or they are ready for a next iteration. I believe we're always expanding and evolving, and so is our purpose and our direction, right? And so and sometimes we're going down a path and it works out really well, and we expand it. And sometimes we're going down a path and it doesn't work out so well, or we get a roadblock, as you know, I have one right now that kind of comes into our experience, and it causes us to course correct. So I feel like there's a lot of course correction next iteration. And to me, I use the words always elevation and expansion, because I think we are designed to continually evolve and expand. And so I think it's yeah, there's, there's all levels of people on the spectrum in terms of, like, knowing what I'm going to do with my life, or how I want to share in the world   Michael Hingson ** 29:30 well. And there's nothing wrong with the whole concept of life is all about expanding and exploring.   Andra Wochesen ** 29:39 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and also developing an ongoing strong desire to learn. The people that I find the most challenging to deal with are the ones who decide they know it all and they don't have any. Thing to learn, because they probably have the most to learn.   Andra Wochesen ** 30:03 Of course, of course, yeah, there's such a gift in the openness to Yeah. I'm using the word evolve, but learn, expand, grow, all of it's the same, right? It's like, there's, there's, yeah. It's, for me, it's one of my biggest values. And I think, I think there are a lot of people who prioritize growth, and then there are other people who don't. So it's choice, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 30:31 oh, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Tell me more about the whole concept of the Akashic records. Oh,   Andra Wochesen ** 30:37 sure, sure, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I told you we'd bring it up. Yeah. So the Akashic records are an energetic database of our soul level information, and so it's like we all have akashics, and it's, it's our soul level information we can all access, and you may even access this information yourself in a meditation, or you receive some guidance on something, but you may be actually in your Akashic records. And so our cash checks sort of have our lifetimes of like lessons of opportunities for growth. Our gifts are it's like it's literally a soul level database of information. And so you can access, we can each access our own, but I am certified to go into people's akashics with their permission, on their behalf, and sort of retrieve relevant information to support them on their life's journey. So that's really, yeah. How do you do that? Well, it's a, yeah, it's quite it's a step by step. I mean, it's a certification. So I'm really tuning in. So there's a whole series of I'm going to say, questions that I ask, and first I get someone's birth date, full name, full name, full current name, full name at birth, date of birth, place of birth, so that's really key, so that I am accessing the right soul. And then there are a series of questions that I ask to determine whether the soul wants me to access this information. And then, yeah, most of the time, I'm kind of going in with very specific questions around soul gifts. But sometimes people come to me with very specific questions, but usually it's some version of like, what's keeping me stuck or I want to get here, or how can I use my gifts in a better way? Or is this a i can even do Akashic records for businesses? So Right? Which is the most aligned business opportunity, which is the most best way to market? What I do? Right? We we have different gifts ourselves. So again, just for me, I am not designed to market, but I'm very good for people to experience me. So I I'm good when I'm on a video, or if I lead a workshop, or if I have a conversation with someone, so when people have an experience, or if they read a Client Testimonial, so that's for me, the way my soul is designed to market. Your soul might not be designed that way at all, right? And so it's really good to have we can get all of this information that actually helps us be more aligned, more successful, more prosperous, right? We can actually be like we have a blueprint. We actually have a soul blueprint that will help us do the best that we possibly can in this lifetime. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 33:31 hmm. How did you learn to do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 33:35 I mean, it was a certification process. So it was a called Soul realignment. That's where I learned, and it was a numerous, numerous courses, numerous practice clients, like any, like, all of my coaching certification, right? There's, um, yeah, there's a lot of people call them, and it's all fine. Everybody can do a lot of people will call themselves a coach, but, and people can be good coaches, but there's actually coach training that people go through. And there's hundreds and hundreds of practice client hours where you actually are learning sort of in the field, just as I did as a teacher. So yeah, it's just another one of the I'm going to say pieces that I bring to my coaching. So I just sort of integrate this all into my sessions with clients.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Got it. So there are places where you actually take these courses, or how does that work? I   Andra Wochesen ** 34:27 have done all of my training online, okay, all of it online from all over the world, actually. Yeah, that's the beauty of the internet, right? It's, it's yeah. I've done, yeah, I've done all of my practice and some stuff in person, for sure, I've done some stuff in person, but I've done a lot of, even all of my coaching. Now, I do a few in person retreats, but most of it is virtual. Most of it is zoom coaching. And I didn't know if I would like it, but I do. It's you can actually form quite a nice connection with people via the internet, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Do you. You're able to to establish as good a connection, doing it through the internet as you would, and as you do, if you're actually conducting an in person event,   Andra Wochesen ** 35:11 you know, yes, I'd say in some ways more so, and then in some ways less so. So I think there are, there are in person, there's, there's something really beautiful in being in someone else's energy, me being in theirs, and they're being in mine, and very also hands. My hands are very, very hands on. So that can be very helpful to have that presence. But I also find online, there can be a spaciousness that actually allows people almost to open up more, because they actually have their own space. So I have, yeah, I've been doing both for years, and I enjoy both. I'm going to say that, and I don't not just about me enjoying it. The benefits for my clients are both in person and virtual, or I would say equal   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 when the pandemic began and we started doing so many things virtually, for me, personally, I never feared it, because we even in an in person environment. I'm not, I don't how do I say this in a positive way? I look at the person, I see the person, but the way I see the person is not physically, necessarily, with the eyes, in in any different way, virtually than I would if I'm doing this in person, and I find that I'm able to interact with people well through zoom. I think Zoom is the more most accessible of the various conferencing technologies is out there, but I think that if you work at it, you can establish a good relationship through zoom, and you can do the kinds of work that you need to do. Unfortunately, too many people talk about it in such a way that they fear it, or they just become tired of doing things in a way that's different than what they're used to, which is totally in person, and that's detracting them from maybe having as positive an experience as they could   Andra Wochesen ** 37:21 Yeah, I agree that's well said, and I think, I think it's always about presence. And so when, yeah, when we're connecting on the internet, it's not, it's a machine or it's, it's whatever it is, right? But it's you showing up fully, making eye contact with people, not being distracted, being fully present, which is what actually allows people to feel seen and feel heard, and I think that it also allows you to be accessing people and opportunities all over the world, right? And so I will even say, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of people, especially when I started doing working more with entrepreneurs, they're like, I'm busy. I don't really have time to, like, drive across the city and come to your office and meet with you. You know, can we do this? And so it actually is very time efficient, right? You don't have to travel you. You are able to fit lots of things into your day, right? So I think there's, there's real benefits to it. And I think again, it's ultimately how present people are a computer or in person.   Michael Hingson ** 38:37 It's, it's all about, in part, accepting a different way of doing things, perhaps than you're used to, and accepting that it may not be any less equal to do it in a different way than the way you would normally do something. That is to say, is it really worse? Is it really different to do it virtually? Or can it really be just as much an equivalent kind of thing? And I think that that is mostly a matter of what we're what we choose to accept. Now, for me, there are challenges with things like doing virtual presentations with Zoom, if people don't communicate in a way that I can fully understand, or if they're sharing screens and don't describe what's on the screen. But the reality is that's just as true if I'm sitting in an in person environment and people are displaying slides and doing other things where they don't describe it. So it comes down to the same thing you can accomplish if you do it right.   Andra Wochesen ** 39:47 Yeah, and I think it comes down like what we said before, what where your focus is? Are you focusing on the gifts of something or the negative areas? Just like we were talking about kids gifts. In school, right? So it's like, if you can see what are the benefits to this virtual experience, if your focus is there, every you know what we focus on expands and where we direct our our focus is what informs how we feel. And so I think if we are choosing to look for the benefits of whatever we are, whatever situation we're in, you'll find them right. And the more you focus on them, the more they'll expand right   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 well. So you referred a couple of times, and I did at the very beginning a little bit to, I think, as you put it, you've had some things that have challenged your path and that you've had to work through, especially as late. Want to talk about some of that.   Andra Wochesen ** 40:44 Yeah. I mean, I yeah, I had to wait until I was ready to share this piece. But I feel like part of my mission and purpose is to support, is to share my journey to support other people. And so I think there's my journey as an entrepreneur that supports people, and this is now a journey with breast cancer, and so it's a health journey that I didn't expect to be sharing with people, and I have had to, obviously decide when and how I want to share it. So, yeah, I was diagnosed in early February and so, and I have yet to have treatment. So I think the reason I thought it was important to even share this is for people even to be able to relate to anything that they receive. So I'm calling it like how to navigate a difficult diagnosis with grace. So I'm not even at the treatment stage. I'm in the unknown, and I've been in the unknown for three months now, and I have been in the known that I have cancer, so I've actually had to hold the fact that I have cancer in my body, but not have any treatment yet for three months. So there's there's something in that being able to hold the unknown and the unexpected and be able to walk my talk, right, which is to maintain my center and my groundedness within myself and not get pulled into a freak out place of like, why aren't they acting faster? Why is this taking so long? And this, is this going to be spreading because they're not doing anything? So I think there's a there's the piece around that that I think I wanted to offer and share, I think, and I think, um, yeah, it's it. What I really realized for myself is, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the person who really navigates this was with grace, and I'm going to be inspirational in this. And then I really realized, and then there were days where I was like, Oh, I'm the opposite of inspirational right now. I am like, grumpy, I'm crying, I'm mad, and I'm like, and then I kind of realized that actually that is inspirational, and that is handling a difficult diagnosis. And so one of the things I do teach people is really to feel what is there and to actually tune into your body. And so I think this journey has actually, and it's just beginning, right? It's not, I'm not even meeting with a surgeon tomorrow for hopefully next steps, but I've had four biopsies, I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of invasive procedures to determine what next steps are. And so, yeah, and so it's just finding this balance, I think, between continuing. So today, it's like, I have a client. This morning, I had another call, and then now I'm on a podcast, and then tomorrow I'm seeing the surgeon, right? So it's, it's being able to and then my husband's actually going for surgery the next day. So it's being able to navigate all of these things at once. And yeah, on some level, I want to just say, like allowing I'm really just allowing myself to be where I am, and some days I am great, and doing a podcast and coaching clients, because that fills me up. And then there are other days where I'm so angry and I'm so sad and there's some fear, and so it's and then so I feel like those two pieces, it's like allowing the hard pieces to be there, and then also having a knowing that there's a higher path and purpose for this. I don't know exactly. I already know I'm growing and expanding because of this, and I know there will be more. And then I think just the third piece I want to share is that my intuition has always been strong, but it's non negotiable now. And so I again, I'm just offering this for your listeners, right? Just tuning into how to tune into your own inner voice in terms of, what do I need right now? What treatment do I want to pursue? There's a lot of different pieces, and there are a lot of different voices that can be out there, but really the power of having this deep connection to yourself. Truth and trusting yourself to or God or spirit or source, however you want to see it, to help guide the process.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 When you say your intuition is non negotiable, what do you mean by that?   Andra Wochesen ** 45:13 Listening to my intuitions for that would have been better way to say it. Listening to my intuition is non negotiable. So I will Intuit, if I'm able to work today, I will Intuit I've been intuiting that my body just wants citrus right now, and I'm just, I'm just giving it that, and I have actually learned that that's actually really helpful for cancer cells. So this is me intuiting this long before I heard this information. So it's tuning in and hearing this information and then acting on it. And so, yeah, I think it's it's just we all have intuition, and I think in times like this, we have to get still and get quiet and make sure that we're listening to the inner guidance that we are receiving.   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 So you say you got diagnosed in February, so it's been two months going on three. Why is it taking so long? Maybe it's not, but why is it taking so long to get treatment? Or is this typical?   Andra Wochesen ** 46:16 I don't like, I don't think there is typical. So that's one thing I would say. And I think this surgeon just wants to be very thorough. So for me personally, I mean, this is maybe too much information, but I have dense breasts, so it's very hard for him to see. He doesn't want to just go in. There is cancer there, but he needed to do other biopsies and do other testing, other MRIs to see if there was more so that he doesn't have to operate cut once or whatever they say, Right? He's like, he wants to go in and do take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, right? And so he's doing his due diligence. And so that just takes some time, right? Takes time to get in for appointments. It takes time to get results for appointments.   Michael Hingson ** 47:04 It's a it's a process. I know I can relate to, to what you're saying. I had over the past few years, and it was growing worse pain, especially in my left arm, and I finally talked to my doctor about it. I was going in to just have some standard blood draws and a couple of vaccinations in December. And I mentioned to the doctor this was going on. And I said, What do we do to try to figure this out? And he said, Well, put a couple other blood tests in just to see what, what might show up. And I find that my doctor is as a pretty bright guy, and so he didn't really go into much detail, other than we'll do blood tests and see, well, turns out that one of the blood tests that he ordered was for a heart enzyme called troponin that is produced by the heart when it's not behaving properly. And so on December 23 I learned that my troponin level was at 1100 92 when normally it should be between zero and 20. And I was taken off to an emergency room. We were actually still at the clinic getting vaccinations. When they had done the blood draws and they stat they just did them right away. They did the tests and got the results anyway. The problem was that when they when they did the tests and the blood tests, it took a day, even though they took me right to an emergency room and I sat there for a day, literally before they did an angiogram and a an echocardiogram to determine that there was a bad heart valve, and then nobody did anything with the information. And what so what they should have done was to have me sign forms to send them to my doctor, or given me copies of the CDs with the images to take to the doctor. And nobody talked about doing any of that, and nobody did any of that, and literally, it was like over a month before the doctor even got the information. And nobody seemed to be worried about it in the doctor's environment, which was at the clinic where I had all my other stuff done, or at the bigger hospital related to it. And it was just very strange, and then when they finally did get the information, even then there wasn't a lot of urgency. And for me, it wasn't a matter of being so much angry as puzzlement about why there wasn't a more of an emergency. You got a bad heart valve. It could stop anytime, right? Anyway, it. Took three months before they finally did do an operation and put in an artificial valve. So that was done in March of this year. So it was basically three months after the the initial diagnosis, and now everything is fine, but it is. I know that for me, what I chose to do was not panic. I chose not to be stressed. So during the time I was in the emergency room for that day, I found lots of ways to be entertained by listening to other people. And I had a couple things to listen to. I had recorded books and so on, but it was much more entertaining to listen to other people around me. And all the way up through the surgery, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a little bit tempting to not get too angry because they were taking so long. But still, my choice was not to be worried by all that, because that could only make matters worse. And when we did the surgery, I came right out of it, and started joking with the doctors right away, and they didn't believe that I was coming out of the anesthetic so fast, but I did and and we had a lot of fun with it, but it is, it is interesting. We do have the ability to make choices, and we can choose to move forward in a positive way or not. And I think if we don't choose to do that, and we we allow ourselves to be controlled by our fears, that's really where too many times, we have too many problems that we don't deal with nearly as well as we can.   Andra Wochesen ** 51:36 Yeah, I think choice is key, right? We have a choice what we think. We have a choice how we feel. And I do want to say I'm a big advocate of positive mindset, but I'm also a very big advocate of feeling your feelings. And so I think there's a difference between true feelings and feelings where we create a story around the feelings, and I think it's, I just really want to voice that today, in terms of people not pasting over feelings. I think there's a, yeah, there's a place for all of it. I think getting stuck in negativity or bad feelings or hard feelings is not where we want to be, but suppressing them if they're there, is also not a good place to be. And I think in fact, for me, in this I can be elevated very easily, because it's what I do for a living. But I think me being much more vocal about the challenges of this or the anger, has actually opened up a stronger conviction in me that is actually opening up more power in my expression. And so I feel I just really wanted to presence that in this moment, because I think it's really key to be yes, obviously choosing, choosing our focus and seeing. We talked about that many times today, about seeing the brightness or seeing the gifts and seeing the positives. But I do think it's really important for people to feel what they need to feel. So just wanted to presence that it's what I do all the time with people, and it's one it's what I'm doing with myself.   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 Yeah, and that's why you're walking the talk and you're succeeding. How is faith imperative when navigating challenges like life, challenges like what you're facing now?   Andra Wochesen ** 53:37 Well, I think I remember one talk you said when you were in the World Trade Center and just said, like God said to you, go here or stay calm. I mean, I don't want to misquote you, but it was, I really could feel the truth of that. And so I think there is a higher power, a higher voice, whatever you want to call it, whether it is God, source, spirit, universe, Higher Self, everybody has different language for it. And I think if we can tune in and believe that things are happening for us versus to us, or that there is guidance that's available for us, it's, I think it's what I think we needed. It's, I feel like sometimes it's the only thing that will get us through the hard times, right, is really believing in, yeah, something bigger than us in our own capacity to handle things and and I'm going to say and cultivating that especially in times of challenge. Because I think when we're in times of challenge, it's easier to lose faith. And I actually think we need to double down on faith when in our in our most challenging moments.   Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What is faith?   Andra Wochesen ** 54:46 Well, that's everybody that I can't speak to that, right? That's your I'm speaking to it in my perspective, I think faith is belief in something bigger than you. I think it's faith is. Something unseen, right, something that has not yet manifested. It's believing in something that's not yet in front of you, right? So I can and choose where to place my faith, right? And you get to choose where to place it, so Right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 But you're continuing, even with the breast cancer and so on. You're continuing to coach, right?   Andra Wochesen ** 55:22 I am, until otherwise I've everybody in my world has to be flexible, because obviously I it's unknown for me in terms of what and I will never show up for a session when I'm not at my fullest capacity. So it just depends on, you know, what that looks like? You know, if I'm recovering from surgery, I'm going to take some time for myself. If I'm in chemotherapy, I'm probably not going to feel very good for certain days, so I'm not going to coach on those days. So it's about, again, me intuiting what I need for me and what serves me, and then making sure that anybody who comes into my world has a very good understanding of that.   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 Oh, can people who are experiencing this podcast with us today apply all of these lessons in their own lives and so on going forward?   Andra Wochesen ** 56:13 Well, I think it's like anything we talked about a lot of things, and I think it's whatever is landing with someone is what they're meant to hear. So there I, you know, very specifically, gave three things around my cancer diagnosis, which I'll reiterate, for people to apply, because I think it's like three steps see the higher perspective of whatever situation or circumstance that you're in that feels like a challenge, whether that is a work challenge, a relationship challenge, a health challenge. Number two, I think, is tuning in to your intuitive guidance, and let's say faith in that container, in that number two. And then I think number three is allowing yourself to express the humanness, which I talked about here, right? Allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Yes, choose the higher perspective when you can. But there are times where tears need to flow, or where you are angry, and it's not about taking out anger on someone else. It's about finding a tool to be able to help you release that anger or be able to express it. So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for that. So I think it's like, yeah, I hope that people can whatever situation they're going through right now that feels even if it's not challenging, it doesn't have to be challenging. But it's like, yeah, see the bigger picture. Tune into intuitive guidance and feel what's really there for you,   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 yeah, which is really important to do. I think we we never spend our we mostly don't spend nearly enough time listening to ourselves and listening to what our inner voices have to say to us that we can use. And I think it's so important to do that,   Andra Wochesen ** 57:59 yes, every day. And I think when we're faced with challenges, it's heightened. And I believe our challenges are here to I've always listened to my inner self, but I think this cancer is like, no, no, you, you're you, you're this is here for you to do it even more. And so I think our challenges are are an opportunity for that to deepen.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Well, since you are coaching, and you do a lot of that, if people want to reach out to you and maybe follow up on what they're hearing today, how do they do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 58:29 My website you could do is, actually, you're on LinkedIn a lot, so probably people are listening to this on LinkedIn. So Andra Wochesen is my if you look that up on LinkedIn, Andrawochesen.com, is my website,   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 why don't you spell that? If you would Sure, sure, yeah, a,   Andra Wochesen ** 58:47 An, D, R, A, W, O, C, H, E, S, E, N, and then.com and yeah, I'm also on Instagram, a little bit under Andra underscore energy, coach, so those are the three main places that I am sort of accessible, or where people can reach out.   Michael Hingson ** 59:08 Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of invaluable insights, and I think there is a lot to be said for the kinds of things that we've talked about today, because we have to listen to ourselves, and mostly we probably have to learn how to listen to ourselves. And you certainly can help with that. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:31 that's a great way to say it, right? It is. It is a it's another choice, right? And it is a skill. And it is. It does require a moment to slow down, to really tune in and listen. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here and spending an hour with us. Can you believe it's been an hour already we've had a lot of fun telling you conversation,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:52 yeah, lots of different topics, lots of different areas. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to connect with you and. Your audience and to share my story and hopefully some inspiration or insight for those listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Well, we're very grateful that you took the time to do this, and I want to express my gratitude to all of you who are out there listening or watching this, and we appreciate you doing so. I hope you liked what Andrew Watson had to say today, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. 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Every day, with few exceptions, I eat a handful of nuts. Usually a combination of almonds, walnuts, pecans, cashews, and pistachios. And they taste good for sure. But I'm responding mainly to research showing that consumption of nuts is related to less chronic disease. In particular, eating nuts lowers levels of inflammation related to heart disease and diabetes, and may improve cholesterol levels among other benefits. So, I saw it as welcome news that someone has just published a book about nuts, all aspects of nuts, actually. Today we're joined by NPR, food Writer Elspeth Hay author of a new book called Feed Us with Trees- nuts, and The Future of Food. And I had no idea. Nuts were so interesting until I dove in a little bit. Elspeth has gathered stories from dozens of nut growers, scientists, indigenous knowledge keepers, researchers and food professionals. She writes that humans once grew their staple crops in forest gardens of perennial nuts, such as oaks, chestnuts, and hazelnuts in these species. Particularly important to the environment as well as to human wellbeing. Interview Summary Elspeth, thanks so much for joining us and for writing such an amazing book. Thank you so much for having me. And it sounds like you have the same habit as my dad. He makes sure to eat a little bit of mixed nuts every night, ever since I can remember for his health. Let's start by having you describe your book. Tell us about Feed us with Trees. Why did you write it and what's it about? I wrote it because I've been reporting on food in the environment for a long time, a little more than 15 years. And I had never heard anyone mention anything about eating acorns until a few years ago. And someone sent me a TEDx talk by a woman in Greece named Marcie Mayer, and she said, you can eat acorns. And not only that, but they're a super food nutritionally, and one of humanity's oldest foods. And I live in this giant oak forest that's protected on Cape Cod as part of the Cape Cod National Seashore. And I had always seen this forest as a sort of impediment to local food production, right? There's all this land that can't be farmed. And all that time, it turns out there was food literally raining down on my roof, underfoot in my driveway, and I just wasn't equipped to see it. The stories that I had grown up with hadn't mentioned that. And so that was a real eyeopener for me and I just couldn't stop thinking about it and I kept researching. So, have you started consuming acorns? I have, yes. I've collected them the past probably five falls and, you know, oaks do something called masting. Some years they have a really big production and some years smaller production. Some years I've gotten more than others. But I have started processing them at home and experimenting with different ways of using the flour. And I've also ordered online acorn oil. There are actually three food products that you can make from acorns. You can make starch, which works just like corn starch or potato starch. Thickens things. You can make flour and with some species you can make oil. It's actually a pretty diverse crop. That's so interesting. You know, I have a series of oak trees right outside my window and I never thought that they might be producing food I could consume. It's so interesting to hear your history with that. Yes, I mean I had no idea. And it turns out that actually acorns are very similar to olives in the way that they need to be processed. They're very high in these compounds that are very bitter, called tannins, just like an olive. I had the experience once of going to Italy with my husband, and we saw this olive grove and we thought, oh cool. Olives growing right here. And we picked one off the tree and he put his in his mouth and immediately spat it out and said, oh, that's awful. Tannins are not something that we want to eat. They don't taste good, but obviously they haven't hampered the olives rise to glory in terms of a human food source. And Acorns need the same kind of processing. So, tannins are water soluble. You pull them out with water. You know, you always get olives in brine, right? And so Yes, just started learning more about how to work with them and then also more about our relationship with oak trees. And I started seeing them differently in that light too. Going from sort of the species that I'd always seen as natural and wild and better off without humans, to actually understanding that we have a really long history with oak trees and in some places, they actually really depend on us. So that was total game changer for me. There's more to the story than oaks and acorns. Tell us what you learned about the history of humans eating nuts like acorns, but also things like chestnuts and hazelnut. Yes, I was really surprised. At first, I thought, okay, this is going to be an isolated thing where some people in really hilly areas or areas that aren't good for row crops are eating these nuts as staple foods. But when I looked back, actually all over the Northern Hemisphere in a huge variety of cultures, people have been in relationship with these nut trees as a staple food for a lot of the past 12,000 years. So, there's records in Japan of this ancient society that was sort of the first known chestnut cultivators in Japan. The burr size increased a lot. The nut size increased a lot during that early era of cultivation. There's a really interesting history of chestnut cultivation throughout Europe during what we call the quote unquote dark ages, although I'm starting to think maybe it was lighter than we thought during that time. There was a lot of cool stuff happening with Agroforestry. And in some areas of Europe, people ate an average of 330 pounds of chestnuts per person, per year. To put that in perspective, today, the average American eats about 150 pounds of grains per person per year. So that is a pretty serious level of chestnut consumption. You know, it's called in some places the bread tree. And I just started finding all these examples. There was a time in the British Isles known as the Nut Age, between about 7,000 and 5,000 years ago. There were just all these examples of different people at different times tending to these trees and harvesting a huge amount of food from them. You've written that trees like oaks and chestnut and hazels and also humans are what ecologists call keystone species. Yes. Tell us what you mean by that and how such species play an outsized role in local ecosystems. So, a keystone species, the first time I ever heard of them I think I was in Jamaica, and someone was talking about the sea urchins on the reef and the beach there. And it turned out that when they disappeared, for a variety of reasons, this whole ecosystem fell apart. And there's different types of keystone species, but a keystone species is as important to its ecosystem as the keystone in a Roman arch, right? So, if you pull that keystone out, you have this cascade of effects where everything kind of falls apart. And oaks are a huge life support tree. I don't know if listeners have heard of the work of entomologist, Doug Tallamy. He's done some really interesting studies on different families of plants and how much life they support by looking at insects. And in most counties where they occur, oaks are the top life support plant in North America. They're this incredibly important basis of the food chain. They provide food for a ton of insects. Those insects in turn feed birds and mammals and other creatures. And you know, at first as I am learning all this, I thought, okay, great oaks are important. Well, you know, I kind of already knew that, but that's exciting that we can eat from them. But then I started getting to know some fire practitioners. Especially an indigenous man in present day Northern California named Ron Reed. And he's a member of the Karuk Tribe there. And he started telling me about the relationship between cultural fire, prescribed fire, and oak trees. And what I learned is that oaks and human fire have actually been in relationship for millennia. And there's this whole, on the east coast, this hypothesis called the Oak Fire Hypothesis. And most ecologists that I've spoken with ascribe to it and believe that the reason that white oak and hickory have been this sort of dominant forest type through a lot of Eastern North America for the past 9,000 years, despite some really dramatic climate changes, is because humans have burned to keep them dominant on the landscape. And that in doing that we actually play a role as a keystone species too, right? So, if our fire is supporting this incredibly important keystone species, oaks, and other nut trees, we're in the category that they call ecosystem engineers. Mm-hmm. So, a beaver is an example of an ecosystem engineer, right? You take the beaver out of the wetland and the whole thing falls apart. And a lot of fire historians and ecologists see us as the fire animal. And historically, in a lot of different ecosystems, that has been our largest and most important role is creating ecosystems for other wildlife habitat, for other wildlife, with fire. So, it sounds like there was a time in human history when humans would selectively burn other things in order to protect these trees. Yes, and truly not just these trees. If you look at other places, other continents, there's human burning in Australia, there's human burning in the Amazon, there's tons of examples. But around here where I live, at least in New England and in the East, fire has been used intentionally to keep these nut trees dominant. Because what happens is. oaks are a mid-succession species. If folks don't know a lot about succession, early is like bare dirt, right? When we have an open field that's been plowed up, that's the beginning of succession. And then it proceeds all the way to an old growth forest. And oaks, if they get shaded out, they're not a particularly shade tolerant species. So, a lot of these nut trees like that kind of middle, sweet spot of succession. Where it's still a little open, there's still plenty of sun for regeneration. And so that can be intentionally preserved with fire or with other methods. But that's been a major one historically. Well, that's so interesting. In your book, you draw a comparison between the yield from these trees to more modern agriculture or industrial farming of things like corn and soybeans. That tell us about that. That's a very interesting point to make. Yes. I spent a lot of time on what I started calling the yield thing because it seemed really important, right? If these trees are actually a viable alternative to the industrial monocultures that we're struggling to maintain, well then, they need to really feed us, right? There needs to be enough food. And there are a number of different ways to look at it. I think, you know, one thing that we don't talk about a lot is when we talk about a monoculture of corn, for instance, I think the record, I'm not going to remember the exact statistics. But the average is maybe12,000 tons per acre or something. But there have been these huge records, and what we don't talk about is that yield is a ratio, right? If land is the limiting factor for us to produce food. And we're just talking about what's coming off this one acre, but we're not talking about the land it took to produce the fertilizer. We're not talking about the land it took to produce the tractor or the fuel or all these other inputs. And when you factor those in, those high yields completely disappear. When we actually look at how much land we need to produce food, an ecosystem based on these keystone trees will always produce the most because they produce the most life, right? And, you know, we tend to get caught up in other measures, but ultimately life comes from photosynthesis and these relationships between different species. And when you have a piece of land that is producing an abundance of life, you also have an abundance of food. And I broke the yield question down in a lot of different ways, but there have been some direct comparisons between oak savannah versus cornfield ecosystems and the amount of photosynthesis and food production that's happening. And the oak ecosystems, I mean, if you just think about the size of an oak tree and its photosynthetic capacity versus the sort of short grass, it can do a lot more. Well, if you happen to park your car under an oak tree, you get a good sense of exactly how many acorns one can produce. Yes, it's quite a bit. And actually, another cool thing about acorns, is that because of the tannins, which are kind of a pain, right, for processing. People often wish they didn't have these tannins. But tannins are an incredible preservative. So, from a food security standpoint, if you gather some acorns and you dry them out a little, just by letting them sit in an airy, dry spot, they can store for decades. So, even if the acorn production isn't consistent year to year, like say a hazelnut or a chestnut or a field of corn might be. Those fluctuations are not as big of a deal because of that food security potential. There's a lot of different ways to break it down. But I was a skeptic, a yield skeptic. And by the end of the research, I felt quite confident in saying that these trees produce plenty and it's definitely not a yield issue why we moved away from them. Well, I'm glad you decided to dive into the yield thing because it's actually very interesting once you get into it. Let's talk about something else that you wrote about. A little-known part of US history. You wrote that in the not-so-distant past, the US government considered keystone nut trees as a solution to some of our biggest environmental and economic challenges. I had no idea about that. Tell us about it and what happened. I had no idea either. When I first started researching the book, I went on this trip through Appalachia talking to different people who had some knowledge of this stand of trees that was planted in between the late 1920s and the 1960s by a guy named John Hershey. And I just thought, oh, cool, I'll go see these old nut trees. This sounds really interesting. But what I learned when I got there and started talking to the folks who had found where the trees were and were sort of caretaking them, was that Hershey was part of, Roosevelt's depression recovery plan. And he had this experimental fruit and nut tree nursery where he had ads in the newspaper and people all over the eastern seaboard were sending in entries of their best nut seeds, best trees. He got these genetics that probably represented, you know, hundreds if not thousands of years of human breeding in the east. And he started planting these experimental nurseries. And as part of Roosevelt's tree army, not only were they planting trees to try to prevent erosion and reforest areas that have been cut over. They were also planting these nut trees and seeing them as a really viable solution to hunger, to environmental crises, and to reviving rural economies. And unfortunately, Hershey ended up getting cancer. His other buddy who was doing the program with him got in a fight with one of the Roosevelt administrators, and the program fell apart. Also, World War II began. So that was another reason that things kind of fell apart. But for a moment there it was at the highest levels of government. The officials saw, wow, this could actually solve a lot of problems at once. And I think it's a bummer that it didn't catch on then. But it's not too late now. We still have a lot of problems as we unfortunately all know. And these trees still offer a lot of solutions. So given the long human history of this, the story of indigenous cultures becomes really fascinating. And you've talked about how the indigenous cultures tended oak trees and other trees with what you called forest farming. And I'm interested in that concept and if you would tell us what that means and also, why haven't these things caught on? And why don't most Americans eat acorns or even know that one can eat them? So, the history of forest farming in the US is pretty long and violent. Our government has pursued a policy of trying to eradicate a lot of these indigenous food production systems because people are easier to control when they're hungry and when they don't have access to the resources that they need. We often talk about our industrial style of farming that we have today as inevitable, right? Oh, well, these older methods didn't produce enough food and so we had to transition from quote unquote hunting and gathering to farming. And what I found as I looked through the history is that is a completely made-up story. Instead, what was happening is that as Euro-American colonists kept trying to expand our land base, you know, kept trying to move West, force into new areas, is that it was very hard to gain access to more land without also using violence and a tactic that, some historians have called a feed fight. Targeting indigenous food production and then forcing survivors to assimilate into grain crop culture. And that, we've been told was because it was a way of producing more food. But in fact, often it yielded less food and was actually a war tactic. And there's a lot of talk right now about regenerative farming and there's also a lot of talk about racial healing and having real conversations about racial history in the US and trying to move forward. And I think that this food aspect is really key to that conversation. And if we want to build a better future, it's something that we really have to reckon with and talk about, you know? We can't change what happened, but we also can't move forward without knowing what happened and really understanding it. So interesting how the history of this particular food was so shaped by politics, colonialism, things like that. And also by things like Mr. Hershey getting cancer and, you know, his, his colleague having a fight. I mean, it's just an incredibly interesting history and it's too bad that it played out like it did for a million tragic reasons. But whoa, that's interesting. I found some of the historic literature just totally confounding and fascinating because there would be, you know, sometimes the same people would be commenting on how they'd gotten to present day California. You know, these Euro-American soldier, settlers, they got there. They couldn't believe how much food there was. You know, wild geese, as far as you can see, wild oats as far as you can see, salmon filling up the rivers. And then in the same letter sometimes saying these indigenous people don't know how to produce food. They have nothing to eat. It was a really important reminder to me of the importance of stories and the stories that we internalize. Because I can now think of examples in my own life of, you know, I live in this national park and on the website of the National Park, there's one page about the importance of human fire in the ecosystem of this place over the past 10,000 years. And on another page of the same website, there's a description of this natural, pristine wilderness, that is supposedly also here. Of course, those two things can't really both be true. But until I started learning all this about oaks and these other trees, that didn't set off any alarm bells in my head. And we all have internalized narratives that we forget to question. For me, for whatever reason, these acorns have been this huge opener of like, okay, what else am I missing? What else do I need to reexamine about the stories around food that I've grown up with and the stories around our relationship with the living world around us. Because there's a lot of layers there to unpack. Well, there sure are. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, because you brought up this issue earlier of forest succession. And in that context, tree pruning is an interesting topic. And you write that tree pruning, this could happen by fire, or it could also happen with other things like pollarding. I didn't know what pollarding was. But those could hold some surprising opportunities when it comes to food production and climate change. And you write that regularly pruned and burned landscapes aren't like the typical old growth forest that we often associate with climate solutions. So why is this? So, we often think of old growth forests as simply a forest that looks really old, right? The trees are tall and they're broad. And there are forests that can be really old but can be in an earlier stage of succession. So, what happens with a lot of these interactions over time where people are either burning or coppicing or pollarding, which I'll define for your listeners. Because I also had no idea what those words meant when I first started researching. But coppicing is where you cut a woody plant back to the ground year after year. It could be every year. It could be in a rotation of every eight or 15 or 20 years to produce new stems. Like it's a plant that will resprout. And pollarding is the same idea but was often done in systems where livestock were also involved. You're cutting much higher off the ground, typically above animal head height, so that they can't graze those tasty young shoots. And there are a lot of traditionally managed forests in Europe that have been managed with coppice and pollard. What's happening is when we produce food in a farm field, right? We're taking succession back to zero every year. We're re plowing the field. Every time we do that the carbon that the plants had stored in their roots and had sent down to the soil gets burped back out into the atmosphere. I talked to a great soil scientist about this, and he was just like, oh, it's carbon dioxide burps everywhere. It's awful. But when we work with these woody plants where you're not taking out the roots, you're not taking out the trunk necessarily, if you're pollarding, right? You're leaving these trees. And these trees can get really old and really big around the trunk, and then they're getting pruned up top and sending out these new shoots. It is more like giving the plant a haircut. You're not killing it back. You're not losing all that carbon that's stored in the soil. And you're kind of renewing its youth and vigor. There are some studies indicating that trees that are coppiced and pollarded can actually live longer than trees with no human interaction. And so, there's this really fine line between, you know, too much interference where we're messing up the succession cycle of the forest and taking it back to zero. And maybe some interference, but not going all the way back to zero. And that has huge climate implications. Bio Elspeth Hay is the author and creator of Feed Us with Trees and the Local Food Report on NPR, and proponent of place-based living. Deeply immersed in her own local-food system, Elspeth's work focuses on food, the environment, and the people, places, and ideas that feed us. She spent the past 15+ years interviewing local food producers, harvesters, processors, cooks, policymakers and visionaries about what it means to be human and live thoughtfully in place. In the process, she's come to understand that we humans are, in fact, perfectly adapted to a wide range of places—and to believe that reconnecting with our home ecosystems is both the great challenge and great joy of our times. In addition to her work as a writer and public radio host, Elspeth is deeply immersed in the local food system of her own home community of Wellfleet, MA on the Outer Cape. She is part of the team behind the Wicked Oyster restaurant in Wellfleet, a co-founder of the Wellfleet Farmers Market, co-founder of the newly launched Commons Keepers, and a passionate student and teacher of place-based living.

In the first of a two-part episode, Lisa Shalett, our Wealth Management CIO, and Andrew Sheets, our Head of Corporate Credit Research, discuss whether the era of “American Exceptionalism” is ending and how investors should prepare for a global market rebalancing. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Andrew Sheets: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Sheets, Head of Corporate Credit Research at Morgan Stanley. Lisa Shalett: And I'm Lisa Shalett, Chief Investment Officer for Morgan Stanley Wealth Management. Andrew Sheets: Today, the first of two episodes tackling a fascinating and complex question. Is American market dominance ending? And what would that mean for investors?It's Wednesday, July 30th at 4pm in London. Lisa Shalett: And it's 11am here in New York. Andrew Sheets: Lisa, it's so great to talk to you again, and especially what we're going to talk about over these two episodes. , a theme that's been coming up regularly on this podcast is this idea of American exceptionalism. This multi-year, almost multi-decade outperformance of the U.S. economy, of the U.S. currency, of the U.S. stock market. And so, it's great to have you on the show, given that you've recently published on this topic in a special report, very topically titled American Exceptionalism: Navigating the Great Rebalancing.So, what are the key pillars behind this idea and why do you think it's so important? Lisa Shalett: Yeah. So, I think that that when you think about the thesis of American exceptionalism and the duration of time that the thesis has endured. I think a lot of investors have come to the conclusion that many of the underpinnings of America's performance are just absolutely inherent and foundational, right? They'll point to America as a, economy of innovation. A market with regulation and capital markets breadth and depth and liquidity a market guided by, , laws and regulation, and a market where, heretofore, we've had relatively decent population growth. All things that tend to lead to growth. But our analysis of the past 15 years, while acknowledging all of those foundational pillars say, ‘Wait a minute, let's separate the wheat from the chaff.' Because this past 15 years has been, extraordinary and different. And it's been extraordinary and different on at least three dimensions. One, the degree to which we've had monetary accommodation and an extraordinary responsiveness of the Fed to any crisis. Secondly, extraordinary fiscal policy and fiscal stimulus. And third, the peak of globalization a trend that in our humble opinion, American companies were among the biggest beneficiaries of exploiting, despite all of the political rhetoric that considers the costs of that globalization. Andrew Sheets: So, Lisa, let me go back then to the title of your report, which is the Great Rebalancing or navigating the Great Rebalancing. So, what is that rebalancing? What do you think kind of might be in store going forward? Lisa Shalett: The profound out performance, as you noted, Andrew, of both the U.S. dollar and American stock markets have left the world, , at an extraordinarily overweight position to the dollar and to American assets.And that's against a backdrop where we're a fraction of the population. We're 25 percent of global GDP, and even with all of our great companies, we're still only 33 percent of the profit pool. So, we were at a place where not only was everyone overweight, but the relative valuation premia of American equity assets versus equities outside or rest of world was literally a 50 percent premium. And that really had us asking the question, is that really sustainable? Those kind of valuation premiums – at a point when all of these pillars, fiscal stimulus, monetary stimulus, globalization, are at these profound inflection points. Andrew Sheets: You mentioned monetary and fiscal policy a bit as being key to supercharging U.S. markets. Where do you think these factors are going to move in the future, and how do you think that affects this rebalancing idea? Lisa Shalett: Look, I mean, I think we went through a period of time where on a relative basis, relative growth, relative rate spreads, right? The, the dispersion between what you could earn in U.S. assets and what you could earn in other places, and the hedging ratio in those currency markets made owning U.S. assets, just incredibly attractive on a relative basis. As the U.S. now kind of hits this point of inflection when the rest of the world is starting to say, okay, in an America first and an America only policy world, what am I going to do? And I think the responses are that for many other countries, they are going to invest aggressively in defense, in infrastructure, in technology, to respond to de-globalization, if you will. And I think for many of those economies, it's going to help equalize not only growth rates between the U.S. and the rest of the world, but it's going to help equalize rate differentials. Particularly on the longer end of the curves, where everyone is going to spending money. Andrew Sheets: That's actually a great segue into this idea of globalization, which again was a major tailwind for U.S. corporations and a pillar of this American outperformance over a number of years.It does seem like that landscape has really changed over the last couple of decades, and yet going forward, it looks like it's going to change again. So, with rising deglobalization with higher tariffs, what do you think that's going to mean to U.S. corporate margins and global supply chains? Lisa Shalett: Maybe I am a product of my training and economics, but I have always been a believer in comparative advantage and what globalization allowed. True free trade and globalization of supply chains allowed was for countries to exploit what they were best at – whether it was the lowest cost labor, the lowest cost of natural resources, the lowest cost inputs. And America was aggressive at pursuing those things, at outsourcing what they could to grow profit margins. And that had lots of implications. And we weren't holding manufacturing assets or logistical assets or transportation assets necessarily on our balance sheets. And that dimension of this asset light and optimized supply chains is something in a world of tariffs, in a world of deglobalization, in a world of create manufacturing jobs onshore, where that gets reversed a bit. And there's going to be a financial cost to that. Andrew Sheets: It's probably fair to say that the way that a lot of people experience American exceptionalism is in their retirement account. In your view, is this outperformance sustainable or do you think, as you mentioned, changing fiscal dynamics, changing trade dynamics, that we're also going to see a leadership rotation here? Lisa Shalett: Our thesis has been, this isn't the end of American exceptionalism, point blank, black and white. What we've said, however, is that we think that the order of magnitude of that outperformance is what's going to close, , when you start burdening, , your growth rate with headwinds, right? And so, again, not to say that that American assets can't continue to, to be major contributors in portfolios and may even, , outperform by a bit. But I don't think that they're going to be outperforming by the magnitude, kind of the 450 - 550 basis points per year compound for 15 years that we've seen. Andrew Sheets: The American exceptionalism that we've seen really since 2009, it's also been accompanied by really unprecedented market imbalances. But another dimension of these imbalances is social and economic inequality, which is creating structural, and policy, and political challenges. Do these imbalances matter for markets? And do you think these imbalances affect economic stability and overall market performance? Lisa Shalett: People need to understand what has happened over this period. When we applied this degree of monetary and fiscal, stimulus, what we essentially did was massively deleverage the private sector of America, right? And as a result, when you do that, you enable and create the backdrop for the portions of your economy who are less interest rate sensitive to continue to, kind of, invest free money. And so what we have seen is that this gap between the haves and the have nots, those who are most interest rate sensitive and those who are least interest rate sensitive – that chasm is really blown out.But also I would suggest an economic policy conundrum. We can all have points of view about the central bank, and we can all have points of view about the current chair. But the reality is if you look at these dispersions in the United States, you have to ask yourself the question, is there one central bank policy that's right for the U.S. economy? I could make the argument that the U.S. GDP, right, is growing at 5.5 percent nominal right now. And the policy rate's 4.3 percent. Is that tight?Andrew Sheets: Hmm. Lisa Shalett: I don't know, right? The economists will tell me it's really tight, Lisa – [be]cause neutral is 3. But I don't know. I don't see the constraints. If I drill down and do I say, can I see constraints among small businesses? Yeah. I think they're suffering. Do I see constraints in some of the portfolio companies of private equity? Are they suffering? Yeah. Do they need lower rates? Yeah. Do the lower two-thirds of American consumers need lower rates to access the housing market. Yeah. But is it hurting the aggregate U.S. economy? Mm, I don't know; hard to convince me. Andrew Sheets: Well, Lisa, that seems like a great place to actually end it for now and Thanks as always, for taking the time to talk. Lisa Shalett: My pleasure, Andrew. Andrew Sheets: And that brings us to the end of part one of this two-part look at American exceptionalism and the impact on equity and fixed income markets. Tomorrow we'll dig into the fixed income side of that debate.Thank you as always, for your time. If you find Thoughts on the Market useful, let us know by leaving a review wherever you listen, and also tell a friend or colleague about us today.*****Lisa Shalett is a member of Morgan Stanley's Wealth Management Division and is not a member of Morgan Stanley's Research Department. Unless otherwise indicated, her views are her own and may differ from the views of the Morgan Stanley Research Department and from the views of others within Morgan Stanley.

Tiff and Dana discuss how dental practices are being innovative in 2025, including A.I., apps, and other technologies that will streamline the busy work and help teams focus on being human. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:02) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Dana and I are back here today. We are really excited. We just did actually a really fun podcast. think that was probably, I think Dana, I don't know. I think that was one of my favorite podcasts we probably ever recorded. I love that stuff. So Dana, thanks for being here. How are you today?   Dana (00:22) doing good excited to get you know I always I know I say this a lot but I truly am just excited to have some time.   The Dental A Team (00:29) Thank you. Thank you. I know I   actually I still have it on my mind. I need to put it in my click up click up organizer. You guys shout out to that. I need to get the soft skills training on there. So I was thinking about that a lot. So you make you make my day Dana. Thank you. I appreciate that. ⁓ You guys virtual teams are weird and they were like   It's just weird. But I think the weirdest part to me or the oddest part is how sincerely close I feel to everyone. Like Dana, I feel like we're best friends and we never get time together. Like the last time we had time together, truly the last time we had time together, I guess, was when we did the December, we did the shopping for the kids in December, the give back. Prior to that was like,   Disneyland last, that was two years ago, right? Two years ago, I think he's time flies, time freaking flies. So, but I feel like we were just together last weekend. Like it's weird. It's a weird thing that has come really far. So on that note, anyone who's considering a virtual team member, it can work really well. I mean, we've got Josh who's in the Philippines and I feel like I know that man. Like we've hung out together.   Dana (01:45) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:47) That's so weird. He's in the Philippines you guys it's nighttime when he's working for us And I'm like groggy just starting my day And he's already lived an entire day and his family sleeping like wild and I feel like I know   Dana (02:01) We know things about his baby girl. We know things about his wife, his band. And it's like he's not even in the country on the same time zone. It's just virtually over the computer. It's crazy. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (02:12) Yeah,   it is really crazy. It's insane to me how far things have come. I think it's really cool. think 2020, we're going to call it 2020, not the other word we could call it, did a lot for us in a lot of ways. There is a lot of bad, I will never just credit that, but I think it forced innovation. 2020 forced human innovation.   I think it was things that were already like in the works in the background or whatever, but it just pushed it to the forefront. And the innovation that has come in the last five years has been insane to me and the amount and what we've been able to handle and what we've been able to consume as humans is wild to me and working remotely and working on a virtual team is definitely something that came out of that. I remember, I remember Karen and I when everything first started happening.   We were like, shoot, okay, it is time to innovate or die, quite literally, innovate or die as a company, because things are drastically changing. Dana, we were in offices constantly, constantly. And then all of a sudden we were like, guess what? You're not allowed to leave the state. Actually, you can't even leave your house. Like don't breathe on anyone. Don't look at anyone. Like it was wild. And that was when,   Dana (03:22) Yes.   The Dental A Team (03:30) Kiera and I got on a call and we were like, what the heck? How do we continue to help offices? And that was when we switched and started doing so much virtual. And it really spun, like it worked really well. We had so many offices that during shutdown, we're doing a ton of training with us. We were building operations manuals and really prepping for reopening. But it also brought a space of like, holy cow, Tiff and Kiera cannot do this alone. Like it brought on so much.   And I think it just like speaks to the spiral of innovation that we've had in the last five years in our company and just in the country as a whole in the world realistically. But Dana, I'm so excited. You came not too far after our 2020 whirlwind of guess what? We're going to do everything by video now. And I was like, ⁓ crikey, here we go. This is going to be fun.   And you came on board with us. So thank you for being here. You have changed the game for us. And I know changed the game for so many of your clients. ⁓ And Dana continues to help us innovate constantly. It is something that she is really, really good at. is brilliant and just constantly thinking of another way, like, and then the, the, and then theory, like, yes, you can do that, but then also you could do this. I'm like, dang it. Thank you. So Dana, thank you for being here. ⁓   I don't know if you guys know this or not, a lot of our topics, we choose our topics, a lot of them, or we decide like, what are we gonna talk about today or what practice do we wanna highlight or chat about? then there are topics that are given to us that I can't really say that I don't have a lot of control on that because they're given to me at the beginning of the year, well, the end of the year for the beginning of the year.   And I go through them and I'm like, yes, these are fantastic topics. These are going to be great newsletters. Doctors are going to find a ton of value in this. And then as discussed about 15 minutes ago with Dana, I need to layer on top of that. This is the and then and say, how are we going to make a podcast about this? Because we have, we have run into that today. ⁓ but I'm really actually excited. We did our research, we did our due diligence and we've chatted about this a few times and   Speaking of innovations, there's been so many innovations everywhere that have helped dentistry just really take a new foothold in the scene of medical. And I think that you guys can all agree with that. Dentistry is one of the top survivors of 2020. And we're really thriving in this world. It's just never, never going away. So tons of innovations. We've talked about the tech. We talk about the tech a lot. actually did one, um, Dana, I did a podcast.   not too long ago with Christy about really getting dental assistants involved in the tech and the innovations there. And that was fun. And this one kind of, guess, is dental assistants too, but we really wanted to highlight some infection control innovations and not just like look at, oh, this is so cool. And, know, I don't know, when I started in 2003, we were doing this and now we're doing this. Like, I don't want to just dive into those, but I really want to talk about some things that are up and coming on the scene.   But with that said Dana thinking of my past and aging aging us both here. You're welcome Do you remember? Do you remember go walking into the room? No masks sometimes I had gloves like it was like whatever and dirty tray in one spot and just like spraying everything Everywhere to where you could barely breathe in that room. I remember I remember gosh   This must have been like 2006, 2007. I don't remember what happened, but something changed, right? With infection control. Do you remember stocking up on the Lysol cans? And like your whole office was like a cloud of Lysol. You couldn't even breathe. And now I'm, you know, curious to see what my lungs are gonna look like in the future and what Lysol really does to your lungs. But like, it's just so fun to look at.   Dana (07:30) Yep.   The Dental A Team (07:42) These are the things we used to do. I used to walk into an operatory with what was it called? What is it? It starts with a B. It's a Birex. I can see the bottle, the clear bottle with the green writing, yellow, you know, squirt, and just like squirting every surface I could possibly see. And then aerosoling with Lysol, walking away, coming back.   Dana (07:43) Hmm.   Pyrex, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   This is... Yep. Everything. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (08:11) wiping it down with calvicide wipes, spraying it again, and then walking away and then walking in with a patient and being like, oh, let me dry that. And I'm drying the chair because there's still byracks on the chair or Lysol in the air and the patient's coughing. Dana, do you remember those days? I hope some of us do.   Dana (08:15) Yeah.   I do and   honestly too because I grew up like I was a child in a dental office a lot and I actually even remember when like gloves were optional.   The Dental A Team (08:35) That's right.   Yeah, I was like, I know what you're   gonna say. I know what you're gonna say. Yeah.   Dana (08:45) Yep, yeah, we're even gloves.   We're just kind of like an option for something.   The Dental A Team (08:50) Yeah. Do you remember   when they would say, well, this is more to protect me than it is to protect you. So that's why I don't wear them. I remember that too. I'm like,   Dana (08:56) Yeah. ⁓   I wash my hands. we're gonna like, I just think about it now all the time. I'm like, ⁓ my like, the places we have come.   The Dental A Team (09:05) ⁓ what we did.   places we   have come, the things we have done not knowing. hope there are so many of you out there laughing. I know that there are a lot of you out there that are like, what are they even talking about? Because you may not have even been born yet. So welcome to Jenna String. We're glad you're here. Just be happier. Be happier coming out of the scene now. ⁓ Anyways, some of the things that I have   Well, we looked up some things today, Dana, and some of the things that one thing I was really excited about something that you mentioned when we were chatting earlier. I want you to kind of talk about what you think, how you think ⁓ practices could really utilize this was one there's like up and coming on the scene. I don't think that there's anything really out there yet that's solid, but up and coming on the scene like automated ⁓ knowing automatically if a sterilizer needs to be ran or what.   write the sterilization pieces. So that's, that's looking really cool, the AI side of automating those types of things to keep a good schedule. But Dana, one thing that was on there that we were looking at was really like tracking those things and making it so that it is digitized. And I think that's massive, because these checklists that we create with practices, right, I have so many dentists that are like, well, cool, we've got like an end to day sheet, but like, what about their monthly? What about their weekly? What about the stereo?   strips. And as a dental assistant, I never remember to do those dang things. And when I did, I never looked at them, right? And I'm like, just having shine, take it, take it away. Tell me if it's good or not. Like, but these automated tools, I think will be super helpful. So Dana, what do you think? How do you think that innovation is really going to benefit practices? And how can they implement something like that right away, that they could truly automate some of these things?   Dana (10:53) Yeah, and I think it's really just doing some research and finding things that are definitely our companies out there who that have started and even in the AI platform where they're just automatically tracking your sterilization. They're automatically making sure that all of your sterilization batches that come out are.   are good and it's logging it for you with dates and paths and fail and, and all those pieces, which I think is just really, really super cool. I know that oftentimes when I get new offices, you know, they're like, well, how do I get my OSHA pieces in place? And how do I and having things like this that are just automated that like, what, what a cool tool and what cool things that I think we're seeing coming for dentistry in that area.   The Dental A Team (11:34) Yeah. Where do you feel like practices could ⁓ ramp up what they're doing now to automate it? Like, I feel like I'm thinking we use ClickUp for everything, which I mean, we have spent, I'm not going to lie. We spent a couple of years getting really good at ClickUp and we have a whole team working on it behind us, but something like that even, right? Where it's like sending these automated email reminders or there's apps out there.   Dana (11:45) Mm-hmm.   No.   The Dental A Team (12:01) with the Remind apps. I know the schools use a Remind app even, but there's like those ⁓ family calendar apps that text you when things are coming up. Like how can we be innovative without waiting for AI to get better or waiting for, you know, Elon Musk or someone to think of something incredibly crazy that no one's ever thought of, but how can we be innovative with the tools that we already have?   that maybe we're seeing people are just aren't really doing these things and they easily could.   Dana (12:31) Yeah,   and think some of it comes down to like that saying, know, know thyself and be free, right? Well, if you're somebody that needs automated reminders, find a way to do it. There's boomerang on your email that you can, you can simply just email yourself and say, sterilization test strip, right? And then you boomerang it to yourself every 10 days or every number of days that it's required for you in your area. And so I think just like finding ways things that are hard don't   typically have to be hard. You just have to find a way to make it easier. And there are so many.   things out there, software, resources, and oftentimes too, like they're even cost effective or there's no cost, right, for some of these too. And so I think it is finding the pieces that are hard for you to keep track of, and then find something, whether it is a management tool or whether it is just a reminder system or whether it is one of these AI ⁓ pieces that are coming or are here. I think it really just is looking and figuring out how you can pivot.   and how you can use the technology that is around you because man, just, the things that are at our fingertips to make things easy and to help with the things that we kind of like just hit our heads on the wall against every single day, they're here and even more is coming and it's really cool.   The Dental A Team (13:54) I couldn't agree more. I have so many systems set up. I tell my practices constantly. Like I my memory, I my memory has never been super fantastic. I remember the things I want to remember, I suppose. Right. But I have so many like I have it down to like, in my calendar, it'll say like, don't forget to leave for your hair appointment. Last Friday, like you've got to drive, right? You got so many pop ups and reminders, then I'll set. I'll just set simple alarms with a label on my phone sometimes that   we'll make sure that I remember to do that off the wall thing. I think you're right, Dana, that we, I think we tend to overcomplicate things. And we try, we try to tell ourselves that we don't, we're not smart enough, or we don't know the thing, or that's not my space, right? I'm not a tech person. I'm not a techie person, but I can tell you, there are plenty of techie people out there that have created systems that I can use.   as a template to create it to be and work however I need it to work for me so that no, they saw me true. You're 100 % spot on with that. I know that I need these reminders. And so I look for the tools that will help me do that. I think making sure doctors, practice owners, leaders, making sure you guys remember you don't have to be the ones that think of this for everyone else. had...   a call yesterday, Dana, with a group of managers that are near and dear to my heart. I've been working with these ladies for years, gosh, like, I think since 2018. And I love them. They're so fantastic. But one of the questions yesterday was like, what do I do when they just keep forgetting to do the thing I asked them to do? And I'm like, well, one, right, Dana, make sure that you've got a date set. And like you said, like a reporting back system, you said that earlier on a different podcast. But also, Dana, don't   You believe I know you teach this to like, I don't need to be the one that creates the system for you to make sure you get it done. If I take that autonomy and that creativity from you, you're likely going to forget, right? Yeah.   Dana (15:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with   you. And I think team members know themselves.   Hands down better than you do as leaders or or we do as your coach and so sometimes I'm like just sit down and ask them like what can we put into place? What do you think will help you? What do you think we can do to support or what system do you think that we can build in? That's because not everybody is a checklist person Sometimes people need reminders on their phones. Sometimes people need reminders on the schedule. Sometimes people need Something that comes to them via email whatever it is, but oftentimes team members because they know themselves better than   anyone can come up with something that will actually truly work versus the 30 things we throw at them trying to solve it.   The Dental A Team (16:37) I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. And that's, that's been helpful in my life for me to be able to have that autonomy and, be empowered to create what's going to work for me. And one of the biggest spaces there is, and then this comes to like the infection control things too, like what's the result we're after. If we know the result we're after, we are, we are very smart beings. We are insanely intellectual. If we know the result we're after,   likely we can come up with a plan to get us there. We just, we have to be given that space and the availability to be able to do that. So I think it's huge. think, gosh, Dana, like this little, I mean, we both have these notes up here that we're like, gosh, there are some really cool things coming down the pipeline. Like they sound awesome. Automated waterline disinfection system. Like, holy cow, that's so cool. If you have this, please write it and tell us more about it. Like,   I know there's so many things that have come out of the last five years and just watching these startup companies or companies that are just starting to do this new thing, watching them do this and jump onto the scene has just been really, really cool. I think do some research, you guys. There's some cool things in here that we don't know enough about to.   go on tangents with, but it is really amazing. And staying on top of that, staying in the forums, I know we've got our doctor forum that's constantly asking questions around things like this and constantly innovating and thinking of new things, but realistically, bottom line, make sure that it's getting done. Make sure that you know what the standards are that you're supposed to keep when it comes to infection control. Those standards, those are your goals. Give them to your team. Your team's really smart. And guess what? Most of us.   Right? Have teams that are way younger than us today. Shelby, shout out to Shelby. Shelby taught these old dogs a trick. That's not a new trick. It's a trick that we forgot about because we didn't have a reminder system for it. But Shelby, Shelby innovates like crazy. She is a solution master. She is a problem solver. And I think it's just that generation's way of   being they were raised with the internet, they were raised with these tools at their disposal and they know how to use them. We were not raised with these tools at our disposal. They came onto the scene while we were growing up and we learned to use them as they they were learning us, you know, and trust these team members to figure some of this stuff out and automate things for you. Simplify, create the systems that are going to work like let them work with these these things. I've seen   not only Shelby, but I've seen so many practices thrive because these young minds are thinking of some incredible, incredible things. And Dana, I'm sure you're saying the same things in your practices.   Dana (19:37) yeah, yeah, and you know, team members sometimes come with great ideas, they come with great resources, sometimes team members, you know, go do research and find something that will solve an issue that's happening and it is really...   need to see from an outside perspective, just how many changes are here, how many changes are coming and the pieces that technology bring. And you're right, younger team members tend to embrace them, ⁓ and find them.   The Dental A Team (20:07) Yeah, I agree. I agree. I call them, you know, the smarter, they're smarter. Those kids running around just thinking of everything and like, dang it, you know, I need that. But we all have our own things that we do really well and I make reminders really well. So that's what I'm gonna be super proud of today. So you guys, I told you, we have some really fun ones. Today was actually really fun. Innovations in infection control, like,   you guys innovate or die yourselves. Where is it? Maybe an infection control, maybe in anywhere else that's honestly driving you a little bit bad. Maybe we're forgetting the stereo strips. Maybe we're forgetting to the lines. Maybe we're forgetting to change the traps and our compressors are getting overworked. Like all of those spaces. What is it? Maybe we're forgetting to wipe things down or whatever it is. Where can we build in some automation? Because today's innovation is reminding you   that there's an automation for everything. So what is it that's driving your nets? What is it that's not getting done so your result isn't getting met? And then what can we create? What system can we create and put in a place that's going to get us there? Dana, thank you so much for taking this wild journey with me today. We've had some really fun podcasts. has been really enjoyable. I would not want to have done this with anyone else. So thank you, Dana, for spending your afternoon with me.   Dana (21:31) Yep, always fun.   The Dental A Team (21:33) Always an adventure with Tiff. All right, guys. Thank you listeners for being here. Whether you are a current Dental A Team client, a future client, or someone who is just here to listen, we love all of you guys. You are near and dear to our heart. We hope that you enjoy every podcast, but we hope you took some nuggets away from today. Please, as always, leave us a five-star review. Let us know what you thought.   And if you have some innovations, write into us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If there are things that other people need to know about, put it in your review as well. People really do read them. And also look for our doctor forums on Facebook or on Instagram. And then if you are a client, make sure that you're in our client only space as well so that you can help everyone innovate in their practices too. And that's a wrap. Thanks guys. We'll catch you next time.

Title: How to Make Millions with Vending Machines with Mike Hoffman Summary: In this conversation, Seth Bradley and Mike Hoffman delve into the world of vending machines as a business opportunity. Mike shares his journey from a Midwest farm boy to a successful entrepreneur in the vending industry, highlighting the evolution of vending technology and the potential for passive income. They discuss the importance of location, understanding demographics, and the scalability of vending routes. Mike emphasizes the need for upfront work and learning before delegating tasks, while also addressing the misconceptions surrounding passive income in the vending business. In this conversation, Seth Bradley and Mike discuss various aspects of entrepreneurship, particularly in the vending machine business. They explore the importance of capital raising, the journey of self-discovery, influences that shape business decisions, and the definition of success. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of flexibility, discipline, and focus in achieving entrepreneurial goals, while also touching on financial milestones and the attributes that distinguish successful entrepreneurs. Links to Watch and Subscribe:   Bullet Point Highlights: Mike's journey from a classic Midwest farm boy to a successful entrepreneur. The evolution of vending machines from traditional to smart technology. Understanding the importance of location in the vending business. The analogy of baseball levels to describe starting in vending. Scaling up from single A to big leagues in vending routes. The significance of demographics in product selection for vending machines. The potential for passive income with proper systems in place. The need for upfront work before achieving passivity in business. Vending is not a get-rich-quick scheme; it requires dedication. The future opportunities in the vending industry are expanding rapidly. Raising capital can dilute ownership but may be necessary for rapid growth. Self-discovery often leads to unexpected career paths. Influences in business can come from personal experiences rather than just mentors. Success is often defined by the ability to prioritize family and flexibility. Entrepreneurs work harder than in traditional jobs but gain flexibility. Discipline is crucial for saying no to distractions. Successful entrepreneurs often focus on niche markets. High foot traffic locations are ideal for vending machines. AI is transforming business operations and efficiency. Networking and connections can lead to valuable opportunities. Transcript: Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:04.898) Mike, what's going on buddy? Doing great brother, doing great. How about you?   Mike (00:06.748) Don't worry,   Mike (00:11.664) Good, I'm a little flustered. I usually have my mic set up over here, but I guess we just moved and it's not here today. I guess, yeah, new office and it's been a whole hot mess.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:19.822) New office or what?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:27.862) Nice man, nice. I see you got the whiteboard cranking back there. Love to see that.   Mike (00:33.114) Always. I love your background. That's sweet.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:38.03) Thanks man, yeah, I'm on camera all the time so I like I need to just build this out instead of using like a green screen so Made the investment made it happen   Mike (00:44.86) Totally.   Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:49.442) Have we met in person or not? I don't know if we've met at a Wealth Without Wall Street event or I couldn't tell. Okay. No, I did not go to Nashville last year.   Mike (00:58.478) I don't think so. don't think you're... Were you in Nashville last year?   Mike (01:04.634) No, okay. No, I don't think we've met in person. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:08.256) Okay, all good, man. All good. Well, cool. I'll just go over the format real quick. We'll do kind of a shorter recording. We're do like 30 minutes, something like in that range. And then we'll just kind of like break. And then I'll, want to record a couple of other quick segments where I call it Million Dollar Monday. I'm kind of asking you about how you made your first, last and next million. And then 1 % closer, which would just be kind of what separates you, what makes you the   top 1 % in your particular vertical. So we'll just kind of record those separately. Those will be real short, like five minutes or so.   Mike (01:44.924) Okay, yeah, I'll follow your lead. All good.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:47.15) Cool. Cool. Let's see. I think I already have this auto recording. So we're already recording. So I'll just jump right in.   Mike (01:55.377) Okay.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:57.782) Welcome to Raise the Bar Radio, hosted by yours truly Seth Bradley. We today we've got Mr. Passive, Mike Hoffman. Mike, welcome to the show.   Mike (02:08.189) Thank you for having me fired up to be here.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:10.855) Absolutely man, really happy to have you on. I know it's been a little bit of a trek here to get our schedules lined up, but really stoked to have you on today, man. I see you said you moved into a new office. You've got the whiteboard cranking, so love to see it.   Mike (02:25.372) yeah, whiteboards are the only place I can get my thoughts down.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:29.399) Yeah, man, it makes a difference when you actually write something rather than type it or even on a mirror board where you're doing it online. just there's something about physically writing something down.   Mike (02:41.328) You know, I'm glad you said that because yesterday I flipped to Seattle for a quick work trip and I didn't have wifi and I literally had three pages of just, I, was so like the clarity of some of these kinds of bigger visions I have now from just being able to write for an hour on a flight was, I was like, man, I gotta do this more often.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:00.363) Yeah, for sure. The key though is once you write it down, it just doesn't go into the trash or into a black hole somewhere where you never see it again. So that's kind of the disadvantage there. If you have it on your computer and you're taking notes or you have it on a mirror board, at least it's there to reference all the time. If you write it down on paper, sometimes, I've got my Raze Masters book right here for notes, but it's like, it might go into the abyss and I'll never look at it again. So you gotta be careful about that.   Mike (03:27.184) Yeah, yeah, I need to check out the Miro boards. I've heard a lot of good things about them.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:31.467) Yeah, yeah. Awesome, Mike. Well, listen, for our audience who doesn't know anything about you, maybe just tell them, you know, tell them a little bit about your background. Tell them about your your main business and we can take it from there.   Mike (03:43.354) Yeah. So I think for those that don't know about me, I'm a classic Midwest farm boy started with a classic, you know, showing cattle at the county fair and all of that and had a lemonade stand growing up. And then my first job was actually at McDonald's, you know, thinking about the whole success of that business model. But when I was coaching and, out of college, I got my first rental and I was like, wow, this is crazy. making money without.   really much time involved. and then with my work in Silicon Valley, know, Seth, was classic Silicon Valley, you know, cutthroat job that, startup life and traveling three weeks out of the month. And I was on, I was in airports all the time. And was like, these vending machines I would run into at airports were just so archaic. And so I went down this path of like unattended retail and kind of the future of, of that. And that's really where I just see a huge opportunity right now.   And so it's kind of what led me into all these different income streams that I'm passionate about.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:49.431) That's awesome, man. Well, let's dive into that a little bit deeper. me about these income streams. It centers around vending machines, right? But I'm sure there's a lot more to it. I'm sure there's a lot of different entry points for people. Maybe just kind of give us a general synopsis to start out.   Mike (05:06.78) Yeah, so I think the big thing with, you know, if we're talking vending specifically as an income stream, you know, most people think of vending as the traditional machines where you enter in a code, you put your card on the machine and then a motor spirals down a Snickers bar or a soda and you go into the chute and grab it.   Nowadays, there's these smart machines that literally you just unlock the door, or even if you go into, land in the Vegas airport right at the bottom of the escalator where it says, welcome to Las Vegas, there's a 7-Eleven with gates and AI cameras, and there's no employees in the 7-Eleven. And it just tracks whatever you grab and to exit the gate, you have to pay for it. So like, there's just this huge market now where we just installed it in urgent care.   less than two months ago and we can do over the counter meds in that machine because it doesn't have to fit into a motor. It's just shelf space. You identify with the planogram with the AI cameras like, okay, Dayquil in this slot or Salad in this slot and then whatever they grab, gets charged to the person that pulls it from it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (06:15.469) That's interesting, man. Yeah, I mean, my initial thought too, was just like the traditional old vending machine where you're getting a candy bar or a cola out of there. But yeah, nowadays, now that you mentioned that, you see this more and more every single day where you've got these scanners, you've got kind of self-checkout, that sort of thing. So that's kind of, that expands that world and really opens it up to the future, right? Like it just really, that's what we're trying to get to, or at least we think we wanna get there, where we're kind of removing humans and...   kind of working with technologies and things like that.   Mike (06:49.488) Yeah, and I think, you know, removing the whole human thing. mean, those machines still got to get stocked and you know, there's not robots running around doing that. But I just come back to, I was a Marriott guy when I was on the road all the time and I'd go to these grab and goes at a Marriott and grab a, the end of the night, I'd grab like a little wine or an ice cream sandwich. And I literally had to go wait in line at the check-in desk behind three people checking in just to tell them, Hey, put these on.   room charge and I was like if I had a checkout kiosk in that grab-and-go I could have just removed all the friction for this customer experience.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:27.772) Right, 100%. Yeah, I mean, there's a place and time for it and there's more and more applications for it that just pop up every single day and you can kind of spot that in your life as you're just kind of moving through, whether you're checking into your hotel or whatever you're doing.   Mike (07:41.456) Yeah, yeah. So that's just kind of what excites me today.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:45.973) Yeah, yeah, so when a stranger asks you what you do just in the street, what do you tell them? Because I have a hard time answering that question sometimes too, but I'd love to hear what your answer is.   Mike (07:56.804) Yeah, I would just say it depends on the day. You know, what do you do or what's your, you know, it's like at the golf course when you get paired up with a stranger and they're like, tell me about what you do for your career. And I just say, I'm a classic entrepreneur. And then I'm like, well, what do you do? And it's like, well, tell me about the day. You know, what fire are you putting out? Like today we just got the go ahead for five more urgent cares for our local route. But then, you know, we have a community of operators across the country that we help really build.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:57.933) haha   Ha ha ha.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:09.879) Yeah. Yeah.   Mike (08:25.616) Vending empires and so we had a group call this morning. So literally, there's a lot of just, you know, it's classic entrepreneurial life. You never know what the day's script is gonna be.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:36.161) Yeah, for sure. And you focus a lot on not only on your own business, but also teaching others, right? Teaching others how to kind of break into this business.   Mike (08:45.402) Yeah, that's my passion, Seth. When I got into my first investment out of college was a $70,000 rental, you know, putting 20 % down or 14K and using an emergency fund. like my background in going to college was as a coach. like I knew I wanted to kind of take that mindset of like coaching people, you know, teach them how to fish. I don't want to catch all the fish myself. It's just not fulfilling that way. So that's really where my passion is.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (09:15.373) Gotcha, gotcha. tell me about like, tell me about step one. I mean, how does somebody break into this business? Obviously your own personal business is probably very advanced. There's probably a lot more sophisticated investing strategies at this point and you've got different layers to it. But somebody just kind of starting out that said, hey, this sounds pretty interesting. This vending machine business sounds like it can be passive. How do you recommend that they get started?   Mike (09:40.57) Yeah, so I'm always, I view like the whole vending scale as similar to Major League Baseball. You got your single A all the way up to the big leagues. And if you're just starting out, I always recommend like find a location where you can put a machine and just learn the process. Like to me, that's single A analogy. you know, that always starts with, people want to jump right to like, well, what type of machines do you recommend?   products, how do you price products? And the first question I'll always ask Seth is, well, what location is this machine going in? And they're like, well, I don't know yet. I was just going to buy one and put it in my garage to start. And it's like, no, you need to have the location first. So understanding that, is it a pet hospital? Is it an apartment? Is it a gym? Where is the foot traffic? And then you can cater to what's the best machine for that type of location.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (10:36.887) Got it, got it. Now is this a kind of a rent, you rent the space to place the machine with that particular business or wherever you're gonna place it or how does that all come together?   Mike (10:47.644) not typically, some people are kind of more advanced, like apartment complexes are used to the revenue share model. So they're going to ask for a piece of the pie for sure, for you to put the machine in their lobby. but like, you know, when we're talking urgent carers or even pet hospitals are viewing it as an amenity. And so we probably have, I don't even know how many machines now 75 now, and we, you know, less than half of those actually,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (10:50.423) Okay.   Mike (11:15.1) us rent or ask for a revenue share to have them in there. So I never leave lead with that, but we'll do it if we need to get the location.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:23.989) Interesting gotcha. So it's really a value add for wherever you're gonna place it and that's how most people or I guess most businesses would look at that and then you're able to capture that that space   Mike (11:27.366) Mm-hmm.   Mike (11:34.236) Yeah, absolutely. So, um, a great case study is we have a 25 employee roughing business here in Oregon. And you might think like, only 25 employees. It's not going to make that much money. Well, we do $1,200 a month. And the cool thing about this, Seth, is the CEO of this roughing company literally did napkin math on how much it costs for his employees to drive to the gas station during their 20 minute break. And then   How much they're paying for an energy drink at the gas station and then how much gas they're using with the roofing like the work trucks to get to and from the gas station So he's like I want to bring a smart machine into our warehouse Set the prices as half off so that four dollar monster only costs his rofers two dollars and then we invoice him the the business owner every month for the other 50 % and so he actually   Calculated as a cost savings not asking for money to rent the space   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:35.597) Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. That makes sense. That makes sense. I love the baseball analogy with the single A, double A, triple A, even into the big leagues here. know, a lot of the folks that listen to this are already kind of, you know, in the big leagues or maybe think about some capital behind them. Like how would they be able to jump right in, maybe skip single or double A or would they, or do you even suggest that? Do you suggest that they start, you know, small just to learn and then maybe invest some more capital into it to expand or can they jump right to the big leagues?   Mike (12:48.891) Yeah.   Yeah.   Mike (13:03.966) I think they can jump right to the big leagues. this is, I'm glad you brought this up because just listening to some of your episodes from the past, there's no doubt that you have people that could buy a route like a off biz buy sell today. And I think this is a prime opportunity. it's very similar to flipping a house. you, you know, there's a route in Chicago, I think it was for $1.1 million, you know, whatever negotiating terms or seller financing or, or what have you, got a lot of, your, your   audience that is experts in that. But the cool thing about these routes is they have the old school machines that have the motors and that are limited to, this type of machine, you can only fit a 12 ounce cannon. Well, guess what? The minute you buy that route, you swap out that machine with one of these micro markets or smart machines. Now you just went from selling a 12 ounce soda for $1.25 to now a 16 ounce monster for $4.50.   Well, you just bought that location based on its current revenue numbers and by swapping out that machine, you're going to two or three acts your revenue just at that location. And so it's truly just like a value play, a value upgrade, like flipping the house of, okay, there's a lot of deals right now of these routes being sold by baby boomers where it's like, they got the old school Pepsi machine. Doesn't have a credit card reader on it. They can't track inventory remotely via their cell phones. So   They're not keeping it stocked. Like all those types of things can really play in your favor as a buyer that just wants to get to the big leagues right away.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (14:37.651) I love that. When you say buy a route, what are you really buying? Tell me about the contractual agreement behind that. What are you really buying there?   Mike (14:47.184) You're just buying the locations and the equipment associated with it. So like this Chicago route, it's like, we have machines in 75 properties all across the Chicago suburbs. And they could be medical clinics. could be apartments. could be employee break rooms at businesses, but that's when you start diving into those locations. It's like, I have a snack machine and a soda machine here. Well, you swap that out with a micro market that now instead of.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (14:49.279) Okay. Okay.   Mike (15:13.626) that machine that'll only hold a small bag of Doritos that you charge two bucks, well now you get the movie size theater bags that you can really put in there in a micro market. Like naturally just that valuation of that route based on those 75 machines current revenue, I mean you're gonna be able to two or three X your revenue right by just swapping out those machines.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (15:35.959) Wow, yeah, I love that analogy with real estate, right? It's just like a value add. It's like, how can I bring in more income from what already exists? Well, I need to upgrade or I need to put in some capital improvements, whatever you want to call it. Here's the vending machine upgrades or a different kind of system in there. And you get more income. And obviously that business in itself is going to be worth more in a higher multiple.   Mike (15:58.396) Absolutely. mean, a great example of this is we had a machine in an apartment complex and it was your traditional machine with the motors and you have to enter in the code. Well, we could only put in four 12 ounce drinks and then chips. Well, we swapped that out with a micro market. Well, now that micro market, we literally put in bags of Tide Pods for laundry, like these big bags of Tide Pods. We'll sell those like hotcakes for 15 bucks. And our old machine,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:25.281) Yeah, let's say those aren't cheap.   Mike (16:27.246) Yeah, our old machine Seth, it would take us to get to 15 bucks, we'd have to sell eight Snickers. That's one transaction.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:33.547) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. How do you do an analysis kind of based on like what you think is gonna sell there, right? Like you're replacing, let's say a Dorito machine with Tide Pods, you know? So you have to individually go to each location and figure out what will work, what will sell.   Mike (16:47.738) Yeah.   Mike (16:51.834) It's all about demographic. Absolutely. So, you know, we have, we have, we have a micro market and a manufacturing plant that's, it's a pumpkin farm and there's a ton of Hispanic workers. So we do a lot of like spicy foods, a lot of spicy chips. do, we do a ton of, mean, the sugar or sorry, the glass bottle cokes. They do, they love their pastries.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:53.431) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (17:06.349) Yeah.   Mike (17:15.868) So we just doubled down on the demographics. So yesterday I was filming at one of our micro markets that's in a gym and they crushed the Fairlife protein shakes, like the more modern protein shakes, but they won't touch muscle milk. So we're literally taking out one row of muscle milk just to add an extra row of Fairlife shakes. So you're constantly just catering to the demographics and what's selling.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (17:40.632) Yeah, yeah, this is awesome. I mean, this is literally just like real estate, right? Like you go and you find a good market. You're talking about demographics, right? Find the market, see what they want, see how much you can upgrade, how you can upgrade. If it's an apartment, it's a unit. If it's here, it's the product that you're selling and the type of machine, or maybe it's a mini market. A lot of things to kind of tie your understanding to here.   Mike (17:45.926) Yeah.   Mike (18:05.904) Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (18:07.615) Yeah, awesome, man. Awesome, Where are you at in your business? Like what, you know, what are the big leagues looking like right now? You know, what are you doing to expand your business, raising the bar in your business?   Mike (18:18.692) Yeah, I'm going after that's a really good question. I'm going after kind of these newer markets and we're kind of past that point of like, okay, let's pilot in this location. For example, that urgent care, we didn't know if it was going to be a good location two months ago when we installed. Well now it's already crushing it. Well, there's six other urgent cares in town and we just got to go ahead on five of those six. So like for me, it's doubling down on our current proof points of where.   okay, we know that manufacturing plant, the pumpkin farm does really well. So let's start getting intros to all their, manufacturers of the products they need to grow pumpkin. know, like we're just doubling down on scaling because now we have the operational blueprint to really just kind of to go after it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:03.917) Gotcha, gotcha. Tell me about how passive this can really be, right? So I used to have, before we switched over to the new brand, Raise the Bar podcast, it was the Passive Income Attorney podcast, right? I was really focused on passive investments, focused on bringing in passive investors into my real estate deals, things like that. And I think that word passive gets thrown around quite a bit, right? And sometimes it's abused because people get into things that are not truly passive.   Mike (19:18.427) Yeah.   Mike (19:28.784) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:33.517) What's your take on that as it relates to the vending business?   Mike (19:38.49) Yeah, so I think as far as with the vending business, there's clearly upfront leg work that needs to be done, whether that's finding locations or any of those things. So I have a route that is here in Oregon, and then we bought a route last year in Illinois and have scaled that route. I spend 30 minutes a week on each route now. that these urgent cares and stuff, like we have an operator that's running the whole route.   Here's the problem, Seth. It's like people are so scared to build systems to ultimately systemize things or they're too cheap to hire help. And I'm the opposite. like, you know, kind of like Dan Martell's buy back your time. Like I have like a leverage calculator and like I constantly think about is this worth my time? Cause as you know, you're busier than me. Like it's so limited.   for me, my routes, I would consider them passive, like one hour a week is, is nothing in my mind. But as far as like, you know, I'm, I'm also a passive investor on, we're building a, an oil loop station in Florida and I sent my money a year ago to, to my, active investor and I haven't talked to him since. Like that's actually truly probably passive now, you know, I'm not doing anything, but there's, there's different levels to that. And I'm a huge believer like.   don't delegate something until you know what you're delegating. So people that want to start with the vending routes, sure, if you want to buy a route that already has an operator, that's one thing. but these, if you're starting a vending route for your kid or for your stay at home wife or whatever, as a side hustle, like get in the weeds and install that first machine. So when you hire help to take over the route, you know what you're delegating.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:09.773) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:27.021) Yeah, that's key. That's key. And you you described just like any other business, right? I think that's kind of where people get themselves into trouble. That sometimes they get sold the dream that is truly passive. And eventually it can be. I mean, you're talking about an hour a week. To me, that's pretty damn passive, right? But you know, upfront, you you've got to learn the business. You've got to know what you're getting yourself into. Like you said, you've got to learn before you delegate so that you know what you're delegating.   There is going to be some upfront work and then as you're able to kind of delegate and learn Then you can make it more and more passive as you go   Mike (22:00.88) Yeah, I mean, it's no different than what's the same when people tell you that they're busy. I mean, you're just not a priority. Like that's a fact. you're not. People say it's the same thing when people come to me and they're like, I'm so busy. It's like, okay, well let me, let me see your schedule. Where are you spending your time? You know, it's like when people are like, I can't lose weight. Okay, well let me see your food log. What did you eat yesterday? Did you have ice cream? Like this is like the same kind of thing. That's where passive I think has been really abused.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:16.097) Yeah. Yep.   Mike (22:29.638) To me, the bigger issue is like, vending is not get rich quick. And so like, if you're expecting to leave your nine to five tomorrow and vending is going to make up for that in one day, like that's not going to   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:41.089) Right, Makes sense. Speaking of passive, do you raise capital or do you have any kind of a fund or have you put together a fund for something like this?   Mike (22:51.48) We haven't put together a fun, we're definitely buying routes is definitely becoming more and more intriguing. And I know there's some PE players starting to get into the vending game, but it's something we've been definitely considering and on our radar of do we want to.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:58.541) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:10.231) Gotcha. Cool. I mean, you brought in money partners for some of those routes yet, or is that still something you're exploring too?   Mike (23:18.168) No, I think it's just something we're thinking about. mean, what do you recommend?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:21.089) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd recommend I mean, it depends, right? Like I'm I'm scared to turn you by trade, but I don't like to say you should always raise capital no matter what. Right. Like you've been able to scale your business as you have and grown it to where it is without bringing outside capital. It sounds which is great because you own 100 percent or with whatever business partners you might have. You know, when you start raising capital, you're giving a large chunk of that piece away, not necessarily your whole company. But if you're buying   you know, a set of routes or that sort of thing. You you're gonna give a big piece away to those past investors if you're starting a fund or even if it's up. Even a single asset syndication here for one of these, you know, these routes, you could put it together that way. You know, it's just something to consider. But a lot of times when people are looking to scale fast, right, if they wanna grow exponentially, you've gotta use other people's money to get there or hit the lottery.   Mike (24:08.294) Mm.   Mike (24:15.856) Absolutely, no, agree. That's spot-on and I actually before you know the Silicon Valley company That I was part of we had a we went through probably series a B C D C ground   Let's just say we weren't very fiscally responsible. So I come from the, you know, it's like the ex-girlfriend example. I don't want to just start taking everyone's money.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (24:42.413) Yeah, yeah, that tends to happen with some startups, right? Like before you get funding, you're super frugal because it's your money and every single dollar counts. And you're like, I don't want to pay, you if it's software, you don't want to pay the software engineers. I'm going to out, you know, put it, you know, hire Indian engineers, that sort of thing. And then once you get a few million bucks that you raised in that seed round, then it just goes and you're like, whoa, wait a minute, let's hire 20 people. You know, it's you got to be careful about that.   Mike (25:05.606) Yeah   Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great take on it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:11.245) Yeah, it's, yeah. It's a question I love to ask and I think it's about time for that. So, in a parallel universe, tell me about a different version of you. So a different but likely version, right? Like, for example, for me, I went to med school for a year and a half and then I dropped out and I ended up becoming an attorney. So that was like a big turning point, right? So I could have easily at some point just said screw it and became a doctor and that would have been a totally different route than I'm going down right now.   What's an example of something like that for you?   Mike (25:42.524) Wait, are you being serious about that? I took the MCAT too. I got into med school and then I, yeah, I was pretty mad in school. And then the more I learned about exercise science, I was like, organic chemistry is not fun.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:44.321) Yeah, totally.   yeah? There you go.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:57.39) It is not fun. I did not love that. I majored in exercise physiology and then I ended up switching to biology because it was just a little bit of an easier route to get my degree and go into med school and I went for a year and a half and then I dropped out because I absolutely hated it. I knew I didn't want to do it. I was just more attracted to business and that sort of thing.   Mike (26:16.346) Yeah, that's crazy. That's awesome. parallel universe. I, that's a really good question. I don't know. I, kinda, I have two kids under three and the other side of me wishes I would have traveled more.   you know, I mean, we'll get there hopefully when they get out of high school and someday. But right now I just think there's so many different cultural things and ways to skin the cat. And it's just fascinating to learn some of those things.   Mike (26:55.352) yourself in those cultures.   go to different cultures and really like understand how they did things for a time, a period of time to really just learn their thinking.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (27:07.777) Yeah, I love that man. I had a similar experience of what you're describing. I didn't travel abroad really other than like, you know, Canada and Mexico until I studied abroad in Barcelona during law school and I got to stay there for a couple of months. So you actually had some time. It wasn't like you're just visiting for a week or a weekend or anything like that. You got to kind of live there right for a couple of months and it just totally changed my, you know, my outlook on life and just the way that you see things like I feel like we're in the US and we just think   Mike (27:19.627) Seth Bradley, Esq. (27:37.76) US is number one and there's only one way to do things the way that we do things that kind of attitude. And then when you go to Western Europe and you see that culture and you drive or get on a train, it's like an hour away and you're in a totally different culture and they're doing it a certain way as well and it's working. You just see that other people are doing things differently and still being successful at it, still having a thriving culture and it's just awesome to see.   Mike (28:03.312) Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (28:06.251) Yeah. Tell me about some major influences in your life. What turned you or got you into that, the vending business? It's not one of those typical things. mean, I know you're in the education business, so you're kind of really spreading the word about this type of business. But I would say when you started, there might not have been a mastermind or educational courses around this. mean, how did you kind of get drawn into that? Were there any particular people or influences that brought you in?   Mike (28:29.308) you   Mike (28:36.188) Yeah. So the, biggest influence for me to get into vending, uh, wasn't actually a person. It was actually, was, um, I had landed, I was coming back from the Pentagon from a trip back to the Bay for the startup we were talking about. And I was in the Denver airport and 11 PM, you know, our flight was delayed. And then they're like, Hey, you have to stay in the airport tonight. The pilot went over their hours for the day, blah, blah, blah. So I went to a vending machine and I remember buying a bottle of water.   I think it costs like at the time three bucks or something. I knew that bottle of water cost 20 cents at Costco. And I was like, there is someone that's at home with their kids right now making money off me and they're not even at this mission. Like the machine is doing the work. So I had like an aha moment of like, what are my true priorities in life? And like, why am I chasing this cutthroat startup from.   Palo Alto and trying to make it when reality was my priorities are freedom to spend more time with my family. So that's really kind of what led me into this path of starting a vending machine side hustle to keep our lifestyle as we had kids. We wanted to have a nanny and we wanted to be able to still go on dates and things like that as a couple with my wife. So that's really kind of my family and just like...   having the freedom to do things. Like that's what I'm really passionate about.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (29:59.084) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, building on that, and you may have already answered that, but what does success look like for you?   Mike (30:01.766) next   Mike (30:06.268) an empty calendar.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:08.621) Good luck with that. Good luck with that.   Mike (30:11.516) Oh man, I was gonna say, how do we crack that code? No, yeah. No, but I think success to me is doing things like picking up my daughter at three and even being able to say no to the things that aren't gonna get you to where you need, like the discipline piece of this too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:15.708) man.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:33.995) Yeah, yeah, mean, you know, for me, it's kind of similar, right? It's not going to be able to empty that calendar. Not yet, at least maybe here in the future. But for now, it's pretty filled. But it is it's flexible, right? Like us as entrepreneurs, you know, we probably work more than we ever worked when we were in our W-2s. But at the same time, it's you know, we're working in our own business for ourselves, for our families. And we have the   Flexibility, a lot of people will say the freedom, right? But we have the flexibility to move things around. And if you want to pick your kids up at school at three, or you do want to take a weekend off, or something comes up in your schedule, you have the flexibility to do that. Whereas if you're kind of slaving away at the nine to five, you can't really do it.   Mike (31:04.486) Yeah. Yeah.   Mike (31:20.198) Yeah, that's spot on. mean, I just wrote that down, but flexibility is, cause you're right. When you started becoming an entrepreneur, this is what I tell people all the time when they want to get a venting around is like running your own business. You are going to work harder than you do for your boss currently at your W-2. Like you have to do payroll. You have to do, like you gotta like make sure there's money to actually do pay, you know, like all those things that you just don't even think about when you have a W-2. It's like, today's   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:39.543) Yeah   Mike (31:48.89) You know, this Friday I get paid. Well, when you run a business, mean, that money's got to come from somewhere.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:51.905) Yeah   Right, yeah, 100%, man, 100%. All right, Mike, we're gonna wrap it up. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Tell the listeners where they can find out more about you.   Mike (32:05.286) Yeah, so thanks for having me. This has been great. I have free content all over the place. can find me on the classic Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, but I also have vendingpreneurs.com is where we help people that are more interested in actually the vending stuff. But I've been really trying to double down on YouTube lately because there's just a lot of content and you can't get it off a one minute reel.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:32.417) Love it, man. All right, Mike, appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the show.   Mike (32:35.91) Thanks for having me.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:37.227) Hi brother. Alright man, got a couple more questions for you. We do like a quick, kind of do the full podcast episode and then I'll just do kind of a quick episode that'll follow up on a Monday and then another one on a Friday. Cool.   Mike (32:55.814) See you.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:59.693) We out here.   Welcome to Million Dollar Mondays, how to make, keep, and scale a million dollars. Mike is a super successful entrepreneur in the vending machine business and beyond. Tell us, how did you make your first million dollars?   Mike (33:20.922) Yeah, Seth. It was probably actually through real estate and just getting a little bit kind of lucky with timing with COVID and short-term rentals and some of that. But yeah, that's probably how I got the first million.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:25.229) Mm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:37.079) Gotcha, cool. Yeah, real estate usually plays a role in the everybody's strategy down the line, whether they're in that primary business or not, whether they start out there or they end up there, real estate usually plays a part. How'd you make your last million?   Mike (33:53.956) Yeah, that's a good question because it's completely different than real estate, but it's actually been vending machines. So that's been kind of fun. just, you you talk about product market fit whenever you're an entrepreneur with a business. And that was just kind of the perfect storm right now of traditional vending really kind of being outdated. And we found a product market fit with it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:57.57) Right. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:16.215) Gotcha. Cool. that was from, was this maybe mostly attributed to kind of buying those routes, those larger routes?   Mike (34:23.32) Exactly. Yeah. Buying old school routes and really kind of flipping them like a house with modern micro markets charging, with different products and what would fit in a vending machine, like more of the unorthodox, you know, toilet paper and tide pods and things that wouldn't fit in a traditional vending machine. I mean, we'll sell $35 bottles of shampoo in these micro markets. So just kind of, go and add it in a different way.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:49.857) Yeah, and then with the aging population, there's gotta be more and more of these things popping up. So there should be more opportunity for people to get involved or for people like yourself to just snag everything, right?   Mike (35:01.102) Yeah, I think there's no chance I could snag everything, not even just in this town alone that I'm currently in. I mean, machines are getting cheaper, the technology is getting way better with AI. And nowadays, it's not what fits in a vending machine motor. It's okay, what's shelf space? if it's a bottle of shampoo or a glass Coke, it doesn't matter because it's not just getting thrown down the chute of a traditional machine.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:05.387) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:27.521) Makes sense, makes sense. Last, how are you planning on making your next million dollars?   Mike (35:34.3) I think probably with AI, we're doing a lot of interesting stuff with helping people scale their, their vending routes. that is applicable to any, small business. And so I'm really intrigued. Just every time I go down a rabbit hole with some new AI tool, I feel like there's another better one that just came right behind it. So I just think it's kind of that time where you can really get ahead by just learning.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:06.209) Yeah, totally makes sense. mean people that are not paying attention to AI whether it's simply using chat GPT instead of Google search are getting left behind quickly because it's just advancing so fast. I can't even imagine what this world's gonna look like five years from now the way that things are moving.   Mike (36:23.132) It's crazy. Three years ago when I was working for a tech company selling software into the government, I would have to work with three secretaries to schedule a meeting with the general to sell their software. Now my EA is literally an AI bot and everyone that's scheduling time on my calendar, they don't even know they're talking to a non-human, which is pretty   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:43.479) Yeah, 100%. We're gonna, I predicted within five years, everybody's gonna have a humanoid robot in their home with AI instilled and they're gonna be doing physical things for us at our homes. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 100%. Awesome, All right, moving on to the next one.   Mike (36:50.181) Yeah!   Mike (36:57.917) I hope so. I hope they can go to Costco get all our groceries do our do our laundry The dishes   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:11.501) You're clearly in the top 1 % of what you do, Mike. What is it about you that separates you from the rest of the field?   Mike (37:19.056) Ooh, that's a good question, Seth. I think it's just discipline, know, discipline and focus. One of the hardest things is being able to say no with the things that don't align. And when I was growing up, I had a quote that has really stuck with me. That's like, it's better to be respected than liked. And I think that really resonates. Like naturally as a human, you want to be liked and help people, but the 1 % are really good at saying no.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:47.649) Yeah, I love that man. That's a great answer. Kind of building on that, what do you think the number one attribute is that makes a successful entrepreneur?   Mike (37:57.468) probably focus. Yeah. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:59.212) Yeah, focus. Yep. The one thing, right? The one thing.   Mike (38:04.186) Yep. That's why you come back to like the most successful entrepreneurs. They always niche down and they niche down because they just, got hyper-focused. Like this is kind of why for me, you know, I started this passive Mr. Passive on social media before I even got into Vendi. Well, now everyone's like, well, how passive is Vendi? And well, it's like, what's really interesting is I was posting all these different, what I thought passive income streams in the time, but everyone, 95 % of the questions I got about   Airbnbs are all my different investments was about bending. So I just niche down on, on bending and I just looked back on that and I was like, it really forced me to focus.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:43.263) Awesome, awesome. What's one thing someone could do today to get 1 % closer to success in the vending machine business if they are really interested in learning more?   Mike (38:53.892) tap into your connections and find a location that has high foot traffic, whether that's a friend that works at an urgent care, a sister that lives at an apartment. You know, you take your kid to that gymnastics studio that has a ton of foot traffic between 4 PM and 8 PM. Like all those locations are prime locations to put one of these modern smart machines in. so, tapping into your connections, well, you know,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:24.567) Love that man. Awesome. All right, Mike, I appreciate it, brother. We'll to meet in person sometime,   Mike (39:30.574) I would love to. Where are you based, Seth?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:31.789) I'm in San Diego, where you at?   Mike (39:34.78) I am in Eugene. Yeah, Oregon. I'll come down your way though.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:37.39) Cool We're planning on doing yeah, we're planning on doing so me and my wife we have a Sprinter van and Last May we did we did going back to the flexibility piece, right? We did 32 days in the van up through Wyoming Montana and then into like Into Canada and they're like Banff and Jasper and all the way up to Jasper and then we circled back on the west coast Through Vancouver and then down back to San Diego Yeah   Mike (40:05.52) What?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:06.829) Pretty wild, pretty awesome. And the reason I brought that up is this year we're gonna do shorter trip. We're probably gonna do two, maybe three weeks at the most, but we're gonna do kind of the Pacific Northwest. So Oregon, Washington, and Vancouver and all those parks and stuff up there.   Mike (40:17.254) Yeah.   Mike (40:21.744) Yeah, you definitely have a, have you been to Bend before? Bend is like my, that whole area, Central Oregon is, and even Idaho, like all those kind of, yeah. That's awesome. Please let me know when you're up this way. I mean, I'll come meet you wherever. That'd be amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:24.641) Yeah, yeah I have.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:38.861) Sure man grab a coffee or beer. I appreciate it. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah all right brother great to meet you and I will send the information on when this is gonna get released and give you you materials and all that stuff so we can collaborate on social media   Mike (40:51.964) Okay. Okay. Yeah. Is a lot of your audience, like passive investors?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:58.593) So most of that, so now I'm rebranding. I rebranded because I'm gonna be speaking more towards like active entrepreneurs, Active entrepreneurs, people raising capital, that sort of thing. Whereas before it was based on passive investors and people really focused on attorneys. So I'm an attorney and I was raising capital from attorneys for my real estate deals. Now I'm really more into selling shovels. I'm scaling my law firm. I'm chief legal officer for Tribest, which is, we've got a fund to fund.   Mike (41:20.262) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:28.085) legal product there as well. So we're really trying to bring in active, active entrepreneurs and people raising capital.   Mike (41:29.777) Yeah.   Mike (41:36.572) Okay, because I got that, I was just thinking through when we talking about that oil development project, that could be a good, the guy that runs that fund could be a good interview for you. Just thinking through your audience, because he's always looking for investors into his fund and like these oil lubs are just crushing it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:49.901) Cool. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:58.464) Yeah, cool. Who is it? Just, I don't know if I know him or not.   Mike (42:02.183) Um, Robert Durkey, he's out of Florida. has, his problem is he's sitting on a gold mine that has no, like he's old school, doesn't know social media, any of that. So that's why I think he'd be perfect for you. Cause I think you could help him and he could definitely help you with some kickback. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we meet soon. Okay. See you Seth. Bye.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:05.645) I don't think I know. I don't think I know.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:13.889) Yeah. Gotcha.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:20.705) Cool, okay, sounds good man. Yeah, I appreciate the introduction.   Yeah, all right brother. Talk soon. See ya. Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en Mike Hoffman's Links: https://www.instagram.com/mikehoffmannofficial/ https://x.com/mrpassive_?lang=en https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedhoffmann/ https://www.tiktok.com/@mr.passive

In this episode we're introduced to Beatty Carmichael, author of 'The Prayer of Freedom,' who shares his journey of using prayer for healing various ailments. Beatty discusses his methods and experiences, including empirical results from his work at an addiction recovery center. The podcast emphasizes the importance of incorporating prayer alongside traditional medical treatments but advises listeners to consult their healthcare professionals before making any changes. Beatty's spiritual approach has reportedly yielded impressive results across various chronic conditions. 00:00 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy 00:48 Introduction to the Podcast 01:22 Creating a Sanctuary: A Place of Rest 02:11 Guest Introduction: Beatty Carmichael 05:45 Beatty's Background and Healing Journey 08:41 The Power of Prayer in Healing 12:29 Scientific Approach to Spiritual Healing 21:05 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser 21:34 Closing Remarks and Contact Information Bio: Beatty Carmichael is a leading expert in spiritual laws and how they affect our health, emotions, and behaviors. After 25 years in business, he uncovered a radical truth: most pain, mental illness, sickness, and trauma aren't rooted in physical or emotional causes, but in the spiritual realm. By identifying and removing the specific spiritual roots behind these struggles, he's helped over1,000 people find freedom from things like chronic pain, anxiety, addiction, depression, suicidal thoughts, and even bipolar disorder—issues that medical science often can't resolve. Once the root is gone, the problem typically disappears in less than 24 hours—with a documented 90% success rate. Beatty outlines this simple, step-by-step method in his book, The Prayer of Freedom, available at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com. Today, he'll expose why so many people stay stuck—and how anyone can experience real, lasting healing by targeting the root issue most others overlook. To get freedom in your life, get a copy of The Prayer of Freedom today. It's available at every bookstore, but the best place to go is book's website at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com where you'll find additional information, discounts, and a free gift.   Beatty Carmichael Part One [00:00:00] I do have a sponsor 7 5 3 Academy. Our martial art program specialized in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. Kali We take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Our fitness community is friendly and supportive without the over the top muscle gym atmosphere. Our coaching staff are professionally trained with over 30 years of experience. Get started by claiming your free class voucher. So go to the link in the show notes. This is in the Phoenix Metro area, so reach out to Coach David and coach Eric over at 7 5 3 Academy. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello and welcome to the podcast. Come on in, take a deep breath, breathe out. It's pretty crazy out there right now. Hopefully this is a sanctuary for you, a place of rest. A place to come and take a load off, a peaceful place and try and make it that way. Say a prayer. I hope that you've been enjoying the guests that we've had on the show recently. We do have a great guest for you this week as well. We're gonna be talking about [00:02:00] prayer when it comes to wellness. We are certainly big on prayer here and trying to find ways to heal from domestic violence and abuse. And my guest today is Beatie Carmichael, and he's gonna tell us our prayer. Is instrumental in healing. Uh, I wanna tell you a little about his bio here. Beatty Carmichael is the author of the book, the Prayer of Freedom. He has developed a way of praying for healing. God actually answers those prayers around 87% of the time. With this process, he has seen God heal over 700 people. Everything from relationship [00:03:00] conflicts, all kinds of chronic pain, anxiety, glaucoma, and more. Some people think God doesn't answer prayers for healing because they've never seen him do it for them, but Beatty has found that with the right approach, God does it almost every time. So if you struggle with relationship conflicts, chronic pain, migraines, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and more, you're in for a big treat. With today's guest as Beatty shares the root cause of most of these issues and a simple four step approach in prayer to get lasting freedom from them today. So I do want to say when we're talking about healthcare issues, 'cause I work in healthcare. Yes, prayer is definitely a part of [00:04:00] healing. The hospital that I belong to, that I work at definitely believes in faith and incorporating prayer as part of the treatment plan. And some of the stories and examples that he's going to give are pretty miraculous. Just want to make sure that you are following your medical professional's advice, whether it's a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, psychologist. Pharmacist. That you are following their professional advice. Don't stop taking your medication or don't stop taking your cancer treatment unless it is approved by your doctor who is in charge of you. I have to say that because, a lot of lawsuits happen, especially here in the United States, you know, the whole, this is not to diagnose, cure, treat any [00:05:00] disease. We all see that on things like vitamins and so forth. But at the same time, we are open-minded to other ways of healing, particularly. Spiritual ways of healing is a little bit of a different take on healing. So we wanna be open-minded to other options that may work for you that may supplement what you're doing now. We certainly need God's help when it comes to healing because he is the great physician. So I am, excited as to what he has for us today and what he has to show for us. So enjoy my conversation with Beatty Carmichael. I'm excited to welcome my guest today, Beatie Carmichael from Birmingham, Alabama. Welcome. Well, thank you, Diana. I'm glad to be here. We're gonna talk about your book, the [00:06:00] Prayer of Freedom and about prayer and healing. So I'm very excited to have you today. Now, are you a survivor yourself or any of your family members? No, but I teach at a place where I deal with survivors all day long. Yeah. You say you teach a class on spiritual warfare at a Women's Addiction Recovery center. Yeah. So tell us about that, your ladies that you help. So, it's the largest addiction recovery center in America. They house over 500 women, and they're all recovering from addiction. Usually with addiction, you have all kinds of trauma, childhood abuse, you have all kinds of parental, loved one abuse and just all this stuff that goes with it. And I teach, two or three classes and I've been doing it for three years and love to just grow and to love the ladies and really understand a lot of the challenges they go [00:07:00] through. And I, I do teach a class on spiritual warfare. And the subtitle is How to Get Free of These Torments that They that struggle with. And it's the number one class in this facility because most of my students, when they come in, they leave being freed of most of the junk that they've been carrying for most of their life. And they're able to let go and finally start to be on a platform where they can move forward in life. So it's been really cool. Wow. You come from a family of doctors, I understand? Yes. So I come from a line of seven generations of medical doctors and I'll have to brag on mayo Clinic. So my dad, when he was in surgery, he entered surgery when specialties were just coming out, and so he was a vascular surgeon. His specialty were the carotid arteries on the either side of the neck, and it's very critical because if any of, if one of those bursts, you got [00:08:00] minutes before the eyes. Right? And so my dad had the highest. The quickest route recovery quickest surgery, lowest complication, even higher, better numbers than the guys at the Mayo Clinic. So we always thought, Hey, that's pretty cool, wow. Mayo Clinic. But he retired, 15, 18 years ago. But seven generations consecutively of medical doctors. I didn't go into medicine, but I took the same approach. To work on healing, which is a scientific approach, and I help people get healed through more of a prayer approach than a medicine approach. And it's been really cool. So was there like an event that brought you into this prayer? Yeah. I'll tell you the story as it is, whether you believe it or not, or whether you, okay. So I end up going into business. I'm actually a small business owner by trade and vocation. I [00:09:00] helped real estate agents get listings. It's a little company called agent dominator.com and about nine years ago, the Lord started put this burden on my heart to want to bring healing into people's lives and looking backwards. I can kind of see now, sort of this healing mantle in my generations and it was always there, but had been suppressed for me. But he started to awaken it and he led me eight and a half years ago to simply go out and try to pray for people for healing. And so, with a little bit of anxiety, but kind of this urge to try it. I went out to a Walmart and I walk up to people that look like they're in pain. They're limping, they're riding one of those scooters because they can't walk. Things of that sort. And I just asked, Hey, I'm out praying for people. Can I pray for you on anything? Are you in pain? Right? And I saw a third of the people. Uh, now you have to understand my definition of healing may be a little bit different. I call [00:10:00] it heal. But since we're on a kind of a medical type show, I wanna be clear on this, it was a total cessation of symptoms. Okay? Okay. So, like, the, one of the first ladies, she was she had degenerative disc in her neck and degenerative disc in her lower back. She was racked in arthritis and she had lupus and she was riding one of these little electric scooters and she had an assistant with her to help her get things off the shelf because she couldn't even look up. Mm-hmm. So I prayed for her and I said, well, stand up and let's see if it works. Right. And she stands up, no pain. She can move her neck all the way around. She can li you know, I mean everything as if. There was nothing there anymore, so I would call that being healed. She didn't go to the doctor, so we don't have a medical diagnosis, but everything that she couldn't do, she could do now without pain. And I started to see a third of the people I prayed for what that type of stuff would happen. And then within about a year or so, I got it up to about 90%. [00:11:00] People like with glaucoma, their eyes would, they can now see people who couldn't hear would now hear. I mean, these things that we would say, uh, like one first ones was a lady with RSD. She had on this compression sleeve on her right arm. And I said, can I pray for you? She said, yes, but don't touch it. I said, what's going on? I have RSD. And I said, oh, okay. Like, I knew what it was. I had no idea what RSD is about, When I went back and told dad about this, and I told him about RSD, he said, RSD. Is a neuropathy type of a neurological issue. It's extremely painful and it's incurable. And if she no longer has pain, he said that's a miracle, right? But after I prayed for her, you could touch her arm and she, I mean, everything was just normal. So I started to go this direction and then what happened that led me into where we're going with the prayer freedom is after about seven years of this, and I would say about a hundred people a year. All these things disappear. I'd go out and I was seeing nine outta 10 people, [00:12:00] whatever, as I prayed for all the symptoms, completely disappear. And then in a period of two weeks, I went back out and I now only saw one outta 10. And it baffled me, you know, I, I'm a scientist. I say, you keep doing the same thing, you should get the same result, right? So I went in prayer and asked God, what's going on? And God said, I took that gift of healing away. I said, why? He said, because now I want you to do it based on authority. And I understood what he meant. This is one of the things I've been experimenting with along the way is some of these spiritual laws and how, to define for you and the audience. You have several types of sciences. One is a physical science, right? So in physical sciences, I like, I have a pen, and if I let go of the pen, it drops. And every time I let go of the pen, it drops. And if you were to pick up your pen and let go of it, it would drop. So we can conclude. There's a physical law, we call it gravity because mm-hmm. Every time you do the same result, [00:13:00] same activity always gets the same result. So we can say there's a law that we can't see, but it's empirically provable. I started to see the same thing in the spiritual realm. And I call it spiritual realm because it's just not the physical realm. I don't know what realm it is. I just call it spirit. And that spiritual realm is when we pray a certain process over here, the same result always occurs over on this other side. And that's where God was starting to send me. So I would go back out to Walmart in places and I would take them through a process rather than me praying for them, I would lead them in prayer and they started getting the same result of all kinds of things that. We would call a miracle be only because we can't explain how in the world could that happen. And then God told me to write this into a book and that's what came out with the prayer freedom. And as I'm teaching at this Addiction Recovery Center, these women have all kinds of [00:14:00] issues. If you're familiar with anyone with addiction, there's a lot of trauma that goes with it. Usually in early age, and then you have, as a result of that, you have all kinds of things like bipolar, you have anxiety and depression and panic attacks. You have sometimes voices in your head, all kinds of chronic pain. And for these ladies also lots of addiction. And I worked out a worksheet where you make a list of the things that are the spiritual roots I was able to identify. And I gave them a prayer of just how to pray to God and include these spiritual roots basically saying, I'm sorry about doing this, or I'm sorry about doing that. And so I gave it to my three classes. I first had to make a list of all the issues they were going through, so all this stuff that, the mental illnesses, the chronic pains, and the addiction urges and anything else, and rate those, illness, those levels on a scale of zero to [00:15:00] 10. 10 being worse, zero being, they don't have it. They don't feel it, they can't identify it. And then I had them go through this process on their own. 'cause I wanted to measure was does this really work or is it just something with me? So I came back a month later and they turned in their papers after praying through going through this process. And I found that of those who completed it, 87% of them. Saw pretty much everything on their list go to a zero, just like totally disappear out of their lives. The 13% of the people saw almost no movement. Okay? So I'm not sure what's going on with the 13%, but for almost nine outta 10, it just like almost everything left, which is interesting. I won't thing about that until just now. Those are the same numbers I saw praying for people, right? Nine outta 10. I see the same thing with this. Yet, this is now a systematic approach. And so [00:16:00] that's why I say it's a spiritual approach to on spiritual laws, because these ladies, they're, some are atheists, some may probably Buddhist or Hindu. Others are Christian. Others are just agnostic. It doesn't matter to their religion. It's just that the framework of there's probably a God that created us. If, have you ever heard Diana of Karma? Do you know what karma is? Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. So a lot of people say, you know, karma, you do bad things, bad things are gonna happen to you, kind of this cause, right? Yeah. Well, the Bible actually talks about that as as a root of sickness. And I use the Bible because it's been really accurate spiritually from the spiritual laws. And one of the things it says is, it says, actually two things. Number one in the Old Testament, it says, if you sin against God, uh, this is in a book called Deuteronomy. It said, if you sin against God and don't obey him, then he'll send on you all these sicknesses and diseases. And then over in the New [00:17:00] Testament at the end of the Bible, in James five 16, it says, if you confess your sins, you'll be healed. So it shows both of these spiritual laws. You do something bad against God, sickness and diseases, and then if you confess your sin, which means to repent and be sorry for them, then he will heal you. And that's basically the premise of this, of the prayer freedom is identifying these things that we may have done that maybe is against what God wants us to do. And when we say we're sorry and ask him to heal it, then we find a lot of these things just kind of disappear. I do wanna be real, since we're on a medical call, let me get this claimer. Okay. If you're under the care of a doctor, don't stop anything until you get their doctor's for approval, right? Because Yes, thank you. Yeah, because some of this stuff, it may not be exactly what you're thinking, but more than anything else, there's a lot of stuff that we don't want to fill with, especially when you get into prescription type of drugs. Okay. And there's a lot of issues there. So, [00:18:00] if you're on any sort of prescriptions or any other therapies before you stop it, even if you think you can, go talk to the doctor first and get permission. Great. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Now you're talking about prayer, but. Would you call yourself a prayer warrior? What is your spiritual background? Like, were you really good at praying or no? What was it like for you growing up? I went to a very liberal church initially that really didn't teach much, other than feel good is the way I would describe it. Then I moved to another church that was very legalistic. Very dogmatic. Mm-hmm. And there was like no love. Right? Right. And so this whole thing of prayer, what really happened to me is I was, you know, I claim, I'm a Christian as my chosen religion, but it wasn until God started to heal people, when I would pray for them. I got really [00:19:00] curious about what this thing is all about and really curious, is prayer really that effective? Right, because it's, I'd never seen that before. Oh, I pray, but I'm not sure I could really say because I prayed something happened. And a lot of times I just wouldn't pray about things because it is like you just kind of pray and goes up in this ether somewhere and we hope maybe something happens good from it. Taking vitamins. We take vitamins, but we can't really track anything specific. We just know it's probably good. Unless you have scurvy? Yeah. Unless you have scurvy or something. Vitamin That vitamin C. But once I started to see people starting to be healed, it really prompted a high level of curiosity to understand what's going on. And this is where I think I call it the scientific mind. Only because doctors are scientists, they're medical scientists and so while they are medical doctors, I call myself a prayer doctor, right? Because they use medicine to heal. I figured out a way to [00:20:00] use prayer to heal so that I wouldn't call myself a prayer warrior. If anything, I would say I'm a scientist, a spiritual scientist or a prayer doctor. I'm not sure. But yeah, so that's how I started. And then over the years I started to identify these spiritual laws that the Bible talked about. And then I would go out and test them and start to pick up a consistent pattern of, I'll call it empirical data that was just irrefutable. And I go, wow, this works. And it no longer works because of me. It works because someone else is following the process. So I know a couple atheists very well, and we've had some conversations, very spirited conversations about Yeah, that God doesn't exist. You mentioned that this would work for anyone, even atheist. So they would say prayer is communication and worship of a [00:21:00] deity. So. Why would an atheist go for that? Just curious. I think this is a great place to stop. I know that you're gonna wanna hear more stories and more about this healing with prayer as to how it works and how you can incorporate it into your treatment plan. He has a lot more to say, so I encourage you to be here next time on the Woods of the Faithful Podcast. Thanks for listening. God bless you. Have a great week. Bye for now. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next [00:22:00] week.

The summer, some of the biggest food companies in America have announced that they plan to stop using artificial food dyes. It's a move that would transform the look of some of the best known brands.Julie Creswell, who covers the food industry, explains how the health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., got the food industry to commit to a change that it has resisted for years — and that could be bad for business.Guest: Julie Creswell, a business reporter covering the food industry for The New York Times.Background reading: How might Jell-O look and taste when artificial dyes are removed?Mr. Kennedy's battle against food dyes hit a roadblock: M&M's.For more information on today's episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Joe Raedle/Getty Images Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

In this episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' host Danielle Ireland introduces John Kippen, a resilience and empowerment coach, magician, and motivational speaker. John shares his incredible journey of overcoming a life-threatening brain tumor and how it transformed his life and career.  Throughout the episode, John discusses his healing journey, the power of vulnerability, and the importance of facing one's limiting beliefs. He also reveals the origins of his unique phrase 'impossible really means I am possible' and offers a special gift to listeners. Tune in to uncover valuable wisdom nuggets and be inspired by John's story of triumph over adversity.   00:00 Introduction to the Episode 00:40 Meet John Kippen: A Multihyphenate Talent 01:23 John's Life-Altering Diagnosis 05:46 The Surgery and Its Aftermath 08:04 The Road to Recovery 13:30 Embracing the New Normal 17:29 The Power of Truth and Magic 29:14 The Power of Magic and Connection 29:31 Introducing Treasured: A Journal for Self-Discovery 30:44 The Magic of Personal Connection 32:59 Overcoming Personal Struggles Through Magic 34:38 The Journey to Self-Acceptance 35:42 The Importance of Asking and Vulnerability 50:24 The TED Talk Experience 54:34 Final Thoughts and Encouragement   RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON'T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS”  Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that's new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today.    DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.   JOHN KIPPEN: https://www.ted.com/talks/john_kippen_being_different_is_my_super_power_magic_saved_my_life   https://www.johnkippen.com   DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW Website: https://danielleireland.com/ The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dontcutyourownbangspod?_t=ZP-8yFHmVNPKtq&_r=1 Transcript:   John Kippen Edited Interview [00:00:00] [00:00:07] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. And today I have the great pleasure of introducing you to someone I can now call a new friend John Kippen. John is a multihyphenate. He has had quite a life and he's an excellent storyteller. So this episode you're gonna wanna buckle up. [00:00:31] It is so good. Get those AirPods in, go on your walk, get safely in your car, get ready to listen because this is just an absolutely beautiful episode. But let me tell you a little bit about John. John is a resilience and empowerment coach. He was and is the CEO of a very successful IT company. [00:00:49] He was a main stage performer at the Magic Castle in Los Angeles, so if that just gives you a little insight, is the level of his magic. He is a motivational speaker. He's a life coach, and. He has a TED talk that has received over a million views. And the heartbeat of this TED talk is how he triumphs over tragedy with a diagnosis of a tumor the size of a golf ball that is separating his brainstem and the procedure he needed to save his life, changed his life forever. [00:01:23] Doing the work of healing does not come easily to anyone, but as John so beautifully puts in this episode, if John can do it, you can do it. He's using his stories, his vulnerable and raw experiences, and talking about not only what happened to him, but how he moved through the impossible. [00:01:45] He actually coins a phrase that I love and I'm going to keep. Which is that impossible really means I am possible. So the ultimate magic trick, the ultimate illusion is what your limiting beliefs are about yourself, and how do you use facing those fears and those limiting beliefs to transform your life. [00:02:08] And in John's case, he takes that healing and offers it as a gift to us. As listeners to his clients and his coaching practice to the readers of his book, he has authored a book The Forward by None other than the Jamie Lee Curtis from all of the places. You know her most recently. The Bear where she won an Emmy, but everything everywhere, all at once. [00:02:32] She and John are buds, and she believes in him and believes in his work, and as a champion of that work, it just adds a little extra sparkle and fairy dust to the beautiful work that he's already doing to say that he's been vetted by someone who is so sparkly and magnetic and also deeply entrenched in holding space for the truth and honoring the truth. [00:02:52] This is a heartfelt episode, so what I would recommend. If you're in a place to do so is you might wanna jot some notes down because John drops some beautiful wisdom nuggets in this episode. And the book that he authored is playing The Hand You're Dealt. And what I wanna share too, we talk about it in the episode, but I wanna highlight this 'cause it's really important. [00:03:12] John is giving everyone who listens to the episode a free gift, but it is not linked in the show notes. It is only available to those of you who listen. It's a special little surprise embedded in the episode that you have to listen to find, but it is a free gift from him to you. So without further ado, get ready to sit back, relax, and enjoy the beautiful wisdom of John Kippen. [00:03:35] ​ [00:03:36] Kippen, multihyphenate resilience and empowerment, coach magician, keynote speaker, author, and all around. Nice guy. Thank you for joining me today on the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs podcast. [00:03:47] Danielle: Hollywood legend wrote the forward of his beautiful book, playing the Hand You're Dealt Forward by the one and Only Take It Away, John, Jamie [00:03:58] John: Lee Curtis. [00:03:59] Danielle: Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes. So you have to stay and listen to the entire episode because he's going to tease out a special little giveaway that will only be revealed in the audio. [00:04:10] So you gotta listen. It's not gonna be linked in the show notes, folks. So buckle up, sit down. This is gonna be a great episode with a fun gift for you, a special little dose of magic hidden inside. So, John, you, I mean, all the different fun things that we listed about what you do. You're a magician, you're a motivational speaker, you're a coach. [00:04:30] What I know doing the work I do as a therapist is the skills and trade that you're building your life on. Those were skills that they were. Hard one, like nobody chooses, in my opinion and in my experience, no one chooses to go into a helping profession that hasn't needed help in their life. It's like the, our healing becomes our medicine. [00:04:54] And I really wanna learn about not just what you offer, but your healing journey that put you in the unique position you're in to do the work you do. So, welcome and I'd love to hear from you. [00:05:05] John: So just quickly, the Reader's Digest version of my backstory. Grew up Los Angeles, middle class family, two great parents loving, no sisters or brothers, had everything I needed. [00:05:18] They sent me to a nice school and, I got into theater, started doing theater, in college. I studied theater and became the big man on campus because pretty much I grabbed every opportunity that presented itself. Started a computer company out of college. 'cause I'm a creative problem solver. [00:05:38] That's the thread that goes through everything I do in my life. [00:05:42] Mm-hmm. [00:05:42] John: I look at a problem, I say, how am I gonna solve that? [00:05:45] Mm-hmm. [00:05:46] John: And then in June of July of 2002, I was diagnosed with a four half centimeter brain tumor called an acoustic neuroma. [00:05:55] Danielle: Yes. And this was, so it was slowly severing your brainstem? Correct. [00:05:59] John: It was displacing the brainstem. Causing not only hearing issues, but dizziness upon standing or walking. [00:06:07] Mm-hmm. [00:06:08] John: I had to have something done with it. I would not have survived. [00:06:12] Mm-hmm. [00:06:14] John: And. It was a whirlwind , I went and saw the doctor who finally diagnosed it after seeing him the MRI films, and he, he had no bedside manner. [00:06:25] I remember sitting on the examining room table, right. And the, the tissue paper is crinkling under my butt. Mm-hmm. I could feel the, I could sense the temperature. I'm heightened sensitivity. [00:06:37] And he looks up at the MRI after talking to a neurosurgeon, and he turns around and says, John, you have a four and a half centimeter brain tumor. [00:06:46] It's killing you. We're operating you on Friday. You're gonna go deaf in your left ear, and there's a possibility for some facial weakness. We're gonna do everything we can to prevent that. And he left [00:07:01] Danielle: the room. So he knew, and in his own. Brash in abrupt way, essentially prepared you for the outcome and challenges that would come assuming the surgery was a success? [00:07:17] John: Yeah. He is a world renowned acoustic neuroma surgeon. He's one of the guys you go to, when you have this kind of tumor and that's all he does. Wow. But he literally left the room and I'm sitting there and I didn't bring anybody in and [00:07:31] yeah. [00:07:32] John: A tip to anyone who's potentially going in for a serious diagnosis. [00:07:36] Yeah. [00:07:37] John: Bring a friend or a family member. [00:07:39] Because it goes in one ear and out the other, you're in shock. Right. Right. When you get home and you say, wait a minute, he said that surgery gonna be four hours or 14 hours or 20. How, how long ago and you have all these questions. Yeah. And you know, getting ahold of the doctor to ask them again is just not the way our medical system works. [00:08:01] He's back to back, to back to back patients. [00:08:04] So, I checked in the night before, they did blood tests and I tried to get an hour or two sleep, 6:00 AM my clockwork the orderly came in and said, okay, get naked, get on this cold gurney. What a sheet over you and we're going take you to the operating room. [00:08:21] Danielle: I wanna pause your story for a moment. 'cause there's a couple things that I, I wanna tease out a little. So one is you, the way that you tell your story, so well probably because you've told it on stages, you've shared it with others, you've written about it. There is something about a trauma. [00:08:37] That really marks the sort of BCAD of life. And the way you shared, I felt like I was in the room with you when you were getting this bomb of news dropped on you so you were theater trained, theater kid, a creative person, a creative problem solver, and a business owner. [00:08:57] Like I, I think about that often when people are experiencing trauma. What, what was life sort of the, the illusion of normalcy. The, the, you know, the predictability of this is my life and this is my to-do list and this is my calendar. So before that moment, you were just a guy on the west coast running a business. [00:09:17] Is that right? [00:09:18] John: Very successful business. [00:09:19] Danielle: And I, I just wanna share briefly too, I haven't met too many other only children. Theater background 'cause that's me too. [00:09:30] John: Oh, really? [00:09:31] Danielle: I'm an only child and I was a theater major and started acting when I was 13, so before. But, the creative problem solver, God, my theater background has paid dividends in ways I didn't know at the time. [00:09:42] I didn't know that when I was preparing for this interview, but now that you've said that, it's like that thing that I couldn't put my finger on has clicked into place. [00:09:49] John: I love doing improv. [00:09:51] Improv is the, you know, everybody talks about being in the moment. [00:09:57] Yeah. [00:09:57] John: What does that really mean, being in the moment? [00:10:00] When you do improv, you have to be in the moment. Otherwise you fall flat. And everybody, you're doing improv looks at you going. Well, it's your turn. [00:10:10] Danielle: You've tapped in. Now you've gotta say something. How are you gonna move the story forward? [00:10:14] Exactly. I feel most alive when I'm engaged in moments like that. And I, it's, I'm not a, a adrenaline junkie, but I would say that's my high, it's the, rush of connecting with somebody like that. So you were running a very successful business. This bomb has dropped. [00:10:32] You can barely remember what you were told and what your life is likely going to be. Assuming everything goes well, what is going to happen when you wake up off your op? And how long was your operation? [00:10:46] John: 15 hours. [00:10:48] Danielle: And the surgery was a success. They were able to remove the golf ice tumor. [00:10:52] Yeah. So they removed the fall sized tumor. [00:10:54] John: I didn't have time to think, you know, I got one of my guys who worked for me told him that he was gonna be running the company for a month or two. He agreed. [00:11:05] Mm-hmm. [00:11:05] John: Had to shovel up some more money to get him to do it, but, you know, it is what it is. You do what you have to do. [00:11:11] Yeah. And then,, I just tried to think positively, hope for the best. Plan for the worst. You know, I had someone gonna stay with me the first week, make food because I just wanted to recover and I didn't know what it was gonna be like. [00:11:27] Danielle: Yeah. You're like, I just need a week to recover, and then I'm just gonna hop back into life, hopefully. [00:11:31] John: Rolling the gurney into the surgical, prep area. [00:11:35] The nurse saying, Hey John, you know, we know we have to shape after your head. You want me to do it now or after you're under. [00:11:42] Danielle: So you didn't even know that they were gonna shave your head. Well, I didn't think about it. [00:11:48] John: I mean, if I had thought about it, I got a shaved part of my head. [00:11:51] Danielle: Right. [00:11:52] John: I said to her, please. [00:11:56] Danielle: Yeah. [00:11:58] John: And so, they roll me into the operating room. You got these really bright lights, , blinding you, and you're laying there and they're like, okay, you're gonna count back toward five. [00:12:09] The next thing I know, I hear faint voices and it was like I was 30 meters deep in a pool. Struggling to get to the surface. And I remember this like it was yesterday, literally trying to swim to the service to regain consciousness. [00:12:26] And finally when I got enough, I realized that my dad was sitting on the edge of my bed holding my hand, [00:12:34] and [00:12:34] John: he was smiling at me, but I didn't see my mom. [00:12:40] So I asked my dad for my glasses and he handed me the glasses. And I remember trying to put the, and then I realized my head's bandage. [00:12:48] Danielle: Oh, right. [00:12:50] John: So I had to figure out how to get the glasses in Cockeye to get 'em on my face, right? [00:12:55] And the look on her face was one of horror. What did these butchers do to my son's face? And at that point, I didn't know my face was paralyzed. Because I have full feeling, I just can't move it. [00:13:10] Danielle: So you currently, you still have full feeling in your face. You just lost mobility, [00:13:14] John: so I didn't really understand what that look was. [00:13:18] Danielle: Right. How could you? [00:13:19] John: And then my mom handed me her compact makeup. [00:13:22] And I opened it up and I'm like, holy crap. And then, I'm still getting [00:13:30] accustomed to, the one thing I noticed is leading into surgery, I was constantly dizzy and that dizziness was gone. [00:13:38] Danielle: Wow. [00:13:39] John: And that was like, oh my God, what a relief. [00:13:42] Mm-hmm. [00:13:43] John: So the doctor finally made his way in and I was like, so when's my face gonna move? And he said, John, we were, successful. [00:13:50] The tumors removed. Right when we were close the incision, your face stopped moving. But we think it's just to do the swelling, and once the swelling goes down, your face should start moving again. So I'm like, okay. I can handle that. That's a, it's not a permanent thing. I can deal with it. [00:14:05] So I'm in the hospital a week and, they're like, when you can do three laps around the hospital floor, without a walker, we'll send you home. [00:14:16] So that became my goal. I remember getting outta bed and then they said, no, no, no. Wait for the, I said, no. The doctor said that I need to rock three laps around. [00:14:26] I want to get the hell out of here [00:14:28] Five days I got home. My dad drove me home and I sat on my couch and now I'm like, okay, I can start healing and check email here and there. And I was taking lots of naps. And then I coughed and I touched the back of my neck and it was wet. [00:14:45] Mm. [00:14:47] John: Oh, it was a spinal fluid leak on the base of the incision. [00:14:51] Whew. [00:14:53] John: So immediately I called the doctor's office and the said, oh, get your ass back here. And I went back to the hospital three times with them to redo the bandaging to try to prevent the leak. [00:15:05] Danielle: Wait, you call the hospital. Hey, their spinal fluid leaking out of my surgical incision. And they're like, yeah, you should get in a car and drive yourself to the hospital. [00:15:16] John: They didn't say how I should get to the hospital. [00:15:19] Danielle: Okay. Fair, fair. But that, [00:15:22] okay. Wow. ' [00:15:24] John: cause that's not good. [00:15:25] And there was potential for getting, spinal meningitis in that. From what I understand is one of the most extreme pains out there. [00:15:35] Okay. [00:15:35] John: I went back and forth three different times over that week. [00:15:39] They tried to, it was just as right behind my ear, right at the base of the incision. So, there was no way that they were going to be able to, put a pressure manage to keep that and so it could start healing. [00:15:51] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:15:52] John: So they finally said, all right, tomorrow you're gonna come in and we're gonna, redo the incision and pull more belly fat outta your belly to fill the hole. [00:16:01] And Yeah. This time they used staples, man, thick Frankenstein. [00:16:07] All the way up. [00:16:08] But then I'm like, I was only in the hospital for a day. And then, and I'm like, okay, I can relax. I remember getting up and brushing my teeth, you know, and I'm looking at the mirror and God, , I don't recognize that guy. [00:16:24] Yeah. And I got rid of all the mirrors in my house. [00:16:30] I didn't want a constant reminder. [00:16:33] My face was screwed up. [00:16:34] Danielle: I, there's so much specificity to what is uniquely your story. [00:16:46] Mm-hmm. [00:16:47] Danielle: But what I have found is when people. Are able to share elements of their experience. It's when you go into the specificity of what you experienced. I can see myself in so many elements of your story in my own, like when we get in deeper, it becomes somehow more accessible and universal. [00:17:16] And in that way, you're not alone, even though it happened to you and that detail about your removing the mirrors from your home. It, it brings me to something I really wanted to ask you about. You share by saying, and then also , by, actually demonstrating in your TED talk that, once you began the healing process of really addressing your depression after your operation, that, the story, it led you to magic, literally. And I also think in a more magical way, beyond performing an illusion. And I know not to call it a trick, I learned that from arrested development. [00:18:03] But, there's something you said that I wanted to quote that it's amazing how accepting kids are of the truth. You open up your TED talk, which I will link in the show notes so people can see. But that you mentioned that this in a way that your permission and your humor and your honesty, it created levity and lightness. [00:18:27] For something that would be considered maybe so precious and heavy. And what I wanna speak to, and open up a question if that's okay, is, I'm curious what your relationship with the truth is because I think humor in its highest expression is allowing us to laugh at something that we see the truth in. [00:18:49] And yet it's this razor's edge between laughing at someone or laughing at something versus inviting us to laugh at the, the human experience that we maybe don't know how to name or express in another way. But I wanna know personally for you, what your relationship is with the truth and the value of embracing it. [00:19:13] And then in your line of work as a coach, where do you see people struggle with it? [00:19:19] John: Truth is an illusion. [00:19:21] Danielle: Ooh, tell me more. That just, that was a zingy response that you popped right out. Please tell me more. [00:19:28] John: Yeah. Truth. Everybody has their own truth. [00:19:31] Danielle: Oh, well there you go. [00:19:32] John: Their own perspective, [00:19:34] Danielle: uhhuh, [00:19:35] John: And the truth is formed out of your limiting beliefs. [00:19:41] Danielle: So the truth is formed out of your limited beliefs, [00:19:44] John: your limiting beliefs. [00:19:45] Danielle: Limiting beliefs. Okay. [00:19:47] John: Yeah. [00:19:48] I just wanted to take a slight step back. [00:19:50] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:19:51] John: I told you this was gonna be the Reader's Digest version. [00:19:54] Danielle: Yes. [00:19:54] John: But it took me 12 years [00:19:57] To come out of that hiding. Wow. 12 years. [00:20:02] Danielle: How old were you when you had your operation? [00:20:05] John: 33. [00:20:06] Danielle: 33. Okay. [00:20:08] John: And fortunately for me, I could work from home. But I miss so many celebrations with friends and family. 'cause I just didn't want to have to explain it. I didn't want to have to deal with the looks, , and I tell this story on my TED Talk and in my book. You know, at a restaurant I wanted to get a burger at Tony Aroma's. And I'm sitting there by myself and in a booth, and there's a booth right in front of me and there's a family with a kid, two parents and a kid. And the kid's squirming and gets up and turns around and is now on his knees on the bench and looking at me. [00:20:44] And he gets up and he comes over and he says, Mr, what's wrong with your face? And in that moment, I didn't want to have a five or 6-year-old come over and Right. And I'm like, okay, I had the strength to come out and go to a restaurant. I have to deal with this. So I started talking to this little boy [00:21:06] Danielle: Mm. [00:21:07] John: And saying, I had a medical procedure that caused me not to with my face before I could continue his mom grabbing him [00:21:16] mm-hmm. [00:21:17] John: The arm and drug him back and said, don't bother him. The nice man, he has enough troubles already. And I couldn't leave it there. [00:21:25] Mm-hmm. [00:21:27] John: So I had to go to the little boy and I knelt down and I got eye level and I said, I love my new face because it's different. [00:21:34] It's different just like yours. And I remember it like it was yesterday, he took his fingers and he tried to distort his face to be crooked like mine. And he turned to his mom and said, look, mom, I could do that too. And then he went back to eating his meal. His question was answered. [00:21:56] He had no judgment. And his parents were like, holy crap, did we just learn a lesson? How to raise our child? [00:22:03] They whispered, thank you on their way out. [00:22:07] Danielle: But there is something I, there, there's something to that woman's response to you that really resonated with me. [00:22:14] And it also, highlights the point you made so well about the, essentially the truth being relative. Because she projected onto you what her perception of your life was. Don't bother the nice man one, she didn't know you were nice, though. You are. But she didn't know that. Right. And she also didn't know what your troubles were or weren't, and she assumed that. [00:22:39] John: But I always wonder what her motives were. [00:22:41] Danielle: Right. [00:22:42] John: was it to make me comfortable or was it to make her and her son comfortable [00:22:48] Danielle: it for her? I think so. [00:22:50] John: And that's how I took it. [00:22:51] Danielle: I remember. So I have two children and I was pregnant once before and lost that pregnancy. [00:22:57] 12 weeks in. And I haven't thought about this in a very long time, but I remember going into, a annual doctor's appointment and she saw on the chart that I was listed as pregnant and clearly now was not. And it was in her own discomfort of not, she was asking me about the baby thinking, 'cause she was not my ob, GYN it was a different type of doctor. [00:23:20] And, she caught. Oh, and then I had sort of explained to her what that meant, and then she said, well, I'm sure, you blame yourself and I want you to know it's not your fault. Like she took her discomfort and tried to turn it into, she positioned herself above as someone who knew what he was experiencing and wanted to offer me this sympathy that was, one, she was wrong. [00:23:45] I totally misplaced. Yeah. I didn't blame myself. And it, that, that moment was such an extension of her own inability to hold the moment and the discomfort of the moment, and, tried to offer it up as a gift for me, which that's, yeah. [00:24:03] John: It's your perception of how you deal with that. [00:24:06] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:07] John: Losing a child can be. Empowering because you know that you can try again and get a child that is not gonna have any kind of defects and is gonna have a good life. And you know whether or not you believe in God or not. [00:24:24] Danielle: Yeah. [00:24:25] John: Things happen for a reason and we don't always understand the reason for them. [00:24:30] Danielle: I don't know if it, what the reason was, but I can say a gift from that was that somebody who lived with a very active monkey mind and a lot of head trash and some anxiety in the experience of the early grief, not for very long, but there was a moment in time where my mind was quiet, not numb, but quiet. [00:24:55] And it helped me realize, oh, there's the observer within me. Then there are the different conversations that are happening in my head that aren't me, which are maybe the perceptions that I call truth sometimes I wanna bring that same question of truth, which you had an answer I was not expecting, which I love when I never see it coming, so thank you. [00:25:18] Where do you see your clients? Because you're a coach, right? You are taking your healing and offering it as medicine to people that are trying to make a connection in their own life. So where do you see people that you work with? Struggle with the truth? [00:25:36] John: Everybody's hiding from someone something in their life. [00:25:40] They have buried something so deep and it keeps them from moving forward in their lives. 'cause it erodes their self-confidence. [00:25:50] That's what I learned through my love for performing magic. [00:25:58] Going to the magic castle, sitting at a table with a paralyzed face. [00:26:03] Yeah. I'm this overweight guy with balding, balding with a paralyzed face. And I could sit at a table and have people come to me. I tell this story sometimes, that the Magic Castle is a place where you have to get dressed up to the nines, you know? And women love to get dressed up [00:26:22] Danielle: That's true. [00:26:23] John: They're wearing their best outfits, right? And all of a sudden I'd have five or six women sitting at the table, and their reactions are very guarded. [00:26:34] Hmm. [00:26:36] John: You know, they're sitting there with their legs and arms crossed. [00:26:39] Hmm [00:26:40] John: they're leaning back. They have a smile that's just more of a grin. [00:26:45] Mm-hmm. ' [00:26:47] John: cause I don't know what I'm about. Sure. They don't know if I'm gonna be inappropriate, if I'm gonna come onto them, if I'm what it is. So they have no expectations other than they're gonna see some magic. [00:26:58] Mm-hmm. [00:26:59] John: So I start my act saying, hi guys. My name is John and I'm doing magic all my life. [00:27:05] But in 2 0 2 I had a brain tumor. And when they cut over my head, they traumatized medication, nerve offense, a paralyzed face. But something happened to me on that talk table that day, Danielle. [00:27:16] Mm-hmm. [00:27:17] John: I'm not sure what it was because I was unconscious. All I know is I recovered. I realized I had acquired some new skills and I pause. [00:27:29] Yeah. And I wait for everybody to get on the edge of their seat. Like, what happened, John, what? Skills. Skills I could acquire. I'm having brain surgery. [00:27:40] Mm-hmm. I [00:27:41] John: looked to my right and I looked to my left like it's the biggest secret. [00:27:45] Lean in and I whisper in a loud voice as I am able to visualize people's thoughts. And then I do some mental magic mentalism. Love it. And what I just did was I turned my biggest challenge into a superpower. [00:28:07] Danielle: Yes, you did. And I wanna pause you because when you said that in your talk, have, have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, big Magic? [00:28:15] Yes. [00:28:15] Danielle: When she talks about trickster energy, I was like, John Kippen is a freaking trickster. [00:28:22] That is trickster energy that you can shift. Before someone's very eyes. It's like you are performing magic and you are performing magic. You shifted before them and you invited them, your audience to see beyond their own limiting beliefs, their own projected truth. [00:28:47] John: They were distracted. They wanted to know why it was paralyzed, but they couldn't ask, did he have a stroke? Did he have be palsy? What was the reason? So I found them being distracted when I was performing. So I got that outta way in the first two minutes. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm. [00:29:01] John: I explained why my face is paralyzed. [00:29:03] And now I treat it as the experience is now I'm able to do superhuman things. [00:29:10] And now they're like, okay, cool. So as I perform [00:29:16] I focus on the spectator. Magic happens in your mind as a spectator. [00:29:22] Danielle: Oh, I love that magic happens in your mind [00:29:26] ​ [00:29:31] If you've ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises. [00:29:51] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not. [00:30:10] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state. [00:30:29] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.​ [00:30:44] John: Magic is what you see in your mind or someone else sees in their mind. [00:30:49] Magic is that thing that immediately makes you present. [00:30:56] Danielle: Yeah. [00:30:57] John: And your, all of your sensors are now in a heightened state , whether it's a sunset or a beautiful beach or a beautiful woman or a magic trick or whatever it is, there's that sense of awe and wonder. [00:31:15] So as I would start to take each spectator, I would learn their names. [00:31:19] And I would use their names throughout the show. [00:31:22] Danielle: People love that. [00:31:23] John: People, I ask them, the one word in everybody's language that they love to hear the most is their own name . and so I use that as a way of engaging the audience. [00:31:33] They start leaning in and now they've got real smiles on their face [00:31:37] and I can literally see this wall that women in today's society are forced to put up as a self-protection mechanism. [00:31:45] Yeah. [00:31:46] John: I see this wall start to grow as they start to identify with me and they're like, I'm okay being myself. [00:31:54] And then the end of this [00:31:56] they're asking permission to hug me. [00:31:58] And , having a creative mind, I wanted to understand. What that is. What that, what was going on. [00:32:06] Danielle: You also, not only through performing magic, inviting the curiosity you could see in other people's faces into your opening act essentially, or your sleight of hand. [00:32:17] I'm gonna show you this over here so that you can not see what's coming here. Vulnerability in its purest form is magic because it's the one thing sharing the story you feel like you couldn't share. Letting somebody see the one part of you that you would never let anybody see 'cause you were so utterly convinced you would be outed or you would be cast out by exposing that vulnerability is the birthplace of true connection. [00:32:47] Yeah. Which is the ultimate magic trick. It's, it's like what they say in nightmares, if you stop and face the thing that's chasing you, it, it can't chase you anymore in the dream. And so you spent a decade, did I remember that correctly, you wanted to be a main stage performer at the Magic Castle? [00:33:06] It took you about 10 years and you did it. [00:33:08] John: I did. [00:33:09] Yeah. [00:33:09] Danielle: 10 years. [00:33:11] John: Yeah. [00:33:12] Danielle: 10 years. [00:33:13] John: It was my creative coping mechanism. I had hit rock bottom, was I suicidal? No, not really. But I was unhappy. [00:33:25] Danielle: Yeah. [00:33:26] John: I was, my girlfriend left me, and, fortunately I had a job that I could focus on. But I needed something more. And through sharing something so personal and tying magic into it and making it a positive instead of a negative [00:33:45] people are attracted to it. [00:33:49] Danielle: Yeah. Well, because you're holding fire in your hand. Yeah. You're not just saying it's possible, but you're living. You're turning it into a performance, which I think for an artist is one of the most selfless, beautiful acts. [00:34:11] John: It's what separates great artists from mediocre artists. What is he giving me to care about? [00:34:18] Danielle: I never thought about that with magic. What are they giving me to care about? [00:34:22] John: Yeah. What do I want them to think when they leave the theater? [00:34:27] Ability to put your own life in perspective. If John can, so can I. [00:34:33] That's my true message. [00:34:36] Any different is your superpower. [00:34:38] Now, my facial paralysis does not have to define me if I don't let it. [00:34:44] You know, Danielle I live my life that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. [00:34:51] And that's bit me in the butt numerous times. [00:34:54] Danielle: I can also say the opposite, can bite you in the butt. I think I waited probably too long, many times for permission that wasn't really coming because no one can ultimately grant it. Right? Like, if there's a path you wanna carve, like the job that you built, all of the different things that you've done, there's no resume posted on LinkedIn. [00:35:15] No one's hot. Like that's an empowerment coach slash magician slash keynote speaker, slash documentarian like that. You have to get curious and still, and listen to that little voice inside and follow that curiosity to a path that may not make sense for anyone for a really long time. And I didn't do that. [00:35:40] And that can bite you in the butt too. 'cause regret's hard to hold. [00:35:42] John: Alex SBE came out on national television [00:35:45] to his fans, to the world and said, I'm scared. I am fighting the battle of my life and I'm gonna ask for everyone's good thoughts and prayers . of what I'm going through. I reached out to Nikki Trebek, Alex's daughter and I said, Nikki, I need to perform for your dad . we're having a 75th birthday party and we don't have any entertainment. [00:36:13] So if you wanna be the entertainment, and I was like. Damn. Yes. [00:36:18] Danielle: Well, yeah. I will go to his house and perform magic for him. a [00:36:22] John: restaurant, but [00:36:23] Danielle: Oh, a restaurant. Okay. [00:36:23] John: Wrote a unique magic show [00:36:25] With Jeopardy themes and the whole nine yards and he was actually at the table as one of my assistants. [00:36:33] Oh. Along with his daughter. so he was this, he needed to understand how things worked. [00:36:39] Was a genius. And so he was constantly looking at me like, wait a minute. That's not possible. Just embrace it, Alex. You're not gonna figure it out. Just enjoy it. [00:36:52] Danielle: That's awesome. [00:36:54] John: And there's, on my website, john kipp.com. There are some magic videos and there are two videos of me performing for Alex , sat with him, and I said, Alex, I need to share something with you that, when you came out so publicly about your diagnosis [00:37:10] I asked for everybody's support and love and prayers that resonated with me. I am here to give to you. You've been a part of my life and the lives of millions of people. [00:37:27] And your life's work is meaningful. [00:37:30] I just wanted to tell you that, 'cause I had a feeling that no one ever takes the time to say thank you for your life's work. [00:37:37] And he immediately started welling up. [00:37:39] Danielle: Well, anybody who makes something look easy that we do take for granted. [00:37:45] And I think that, like I appreciate so much in the telling of your story, you share not just the struggles, but the time you had a vision of yourself. On the main stage performing at the Magic Castle, like the most elusive place where magic is. And you didn't just wanna get in, you didn't just wanna get an audition, you didn't wanna just like get to per perform an illusion, like main stage. [00:38:23] You didn't just have a goal. You had the goal and you did it, but you also say that it took you 10 years. And there's usually themes that run with anxiety, about not enoughness and the crunchiness of time. There's never enough time. I'm not enough and there's not enough time. And not being worthy. [00:38:42] Yes, yes, yes. One of my main motivations when I started this podcast originally several years ago, was I was. Starting to increasingly feel, trapped in this sort of, world of before and after story. And it was no longer feeling inspirational. It was just another measuring stick for how not enough. [00:39:03] Yeah. 'Cause it, it's great to see where somebody was and where they are, but when I'm knee deep in my own struggle when I'm the caterpillar goo and the chrysalis, and I'm not the shiny butterfly, but I'm also not the caterpillar anymore. What do I do when my life is literally a shitty pile of goo this is something that most clients don't come right out and ask me like in sessions one, two, and three. But it inevitably comes well, I've been doing this for, so many months. How much longer is it gonna take? How long is it gonna take? And I just always, I appreciate when people can acknowledge. [00:39:41] The time and consistency that goes into healing [00:39:47] John: joy is in the journey. [00:39:48] Danielle: Mm. [00:39:49] John: Not in the destination. [00:39:51] And that's the thing I really focus with my clients. [00:39:55] I have clients come to me because they're holding themselves back in their life. [00:39:59] And it's my job to get that out of them by asking open-ended questions, by building a rapport, I can trust this guy. [00:40:08] Danielle: Yeah. Would you say that's your superpower as a coach? [00:40:11] John: Through my journey of reverse engineering who I am and who I wanted to become. Coming out the other side immediately understood that it's not about me. [00:40:24] Danielle: Yes. It's only true every single time. [00:40:27] John: The joy comes from helping others get that realization, [00:40:32] That they understand they are truly powerful and have a chance to shape their destiny. [00:40:40] That's why I talk about limiting beliefs. [00:40:43] And we grow up with our parents or whoever raised us, those are our belief systems. [00:40:49] And so that's what forms who you are. You stop dreaming. [00:40:54] That's what midlife crisis is all about. [00:40:58] Danielle: Yeah. [00:40:59] John: We got educated, we got a job, we built a career. We have a family. [00:41:06] Danielle: It's, I think the version of that I hear in my sessions is essentially I did everything right. Shouldn't I be feeling better than I am? Yeah. Like, I followed all the rules. I'm winning. Why does it not feel like I'm winning? Yeah. And finding our way back to that. [00:41:29] The unlearning and the unraveling. That is a, it's a process. [00:41:34] John: I'll talk to a friend. How you doing? And so many people respond automatically living the dream. But is it your dream? You're living? [00:41:46] Whose dream are you living? Because you're wasting your life by living someone else's dream. And that's why you get to that point in life where it's not enough. [00:41:58] Cause it's not your dream. You just finished the last 30 years building. [00:42:03] Danielle: Yeah. And the joy really is in the process and there's no way to enjoy the process of fulfilling the wishes of somebody else because you, what you're constantly chasing is when I get there, then the relief will come and then you're there and you're like, well, where's my pot of gold? [00:42:22] John: Yeah. I had, I spent 20 years learning how not to hide my face. [00:42:28] And what happened in March in 2020? The pandemic hit [00:42:33] now covering your face with a mask, became not only politically correct. [00:42:41] But government mandated and I'm like sitting there thinking to myself, what do I do? So I found a company who prints things on masks and I sent them a picture of my face and a picture of the lower part of my job. [00:43:01] Danielle: Trickster energy, John Kippen trickster. That's the new hyphen to your list of all of your accomplishments. [00:43:08] John: I would walk around and strangers would look at it and not understand. [00:43:12] Danielle: Right, right. But people who knew me [00:43:15] John: would do a double take. [00:43:17] Danielle: I will not hide. [00:43:19] John: Refuses to hide. [00:43:20] Even through a global pandemic. [00:43:23] Yeah. [00:43:23] John: I'm gonna live my life [00:43:25] Danielle: mm-hmm. On [00:43:26] John: my own terms. [00:43:28] Danielle: Yeah. I work too hard, too long to get free and I will not hide for you. Wow. Wow. And [00:43:37] John: when I share that story, people like, wow, John's done some soul searching. [00:43:44] Danielle: Which is why your clients come to you. [00:43:46] John: Yeah. [00:43:46] Danielle: Yeah. I unfortunately have come across many. People in the helping profession that haven't started with their first client, which is themselves. I put myself in that camp. I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I didn't start seeing a therapist until I became one, which is probably not the right order, but I didn't realize until I was sitting there trying to help people. [00:44:09] And then my own stuff was getting activated in the session. It's called Counter Transference. And, yeah, I was like, oh shit, I gotta look at the mirror. I gotta do a little more digging. But I think a, what leads a lot of people into helping professions is its desire to heal. And it sounds like in your case you did the herculean task of lifting your own self up before you said, now what can I offer you? [00:44:39] I wanna ask, just a purely curious, selfish question before we get to the very end I wanna ask. In your book playing the Hand you're Dealt how did you connect with Jamie Lee Curtis? The same way you did Alex Trebek? Did you just find someone and you DMed them and [00:44:55] John: you're like, her assistant worked for a production company [00:45:00] in a previous job. [00:45:02] Danielle: Gotcha. [00:45:02] John: That I knew. [00:45:03] When Jamie was like, I need it. So help with my computer. Her assistant said, I've got the guy for you. And I remember being at Jamie's house. [00:45:15] She knew me before my facial surgery, and after. [00:45:18] Danielle: So you have a history then? [00:45:19] John: Oh yeah. We met in 2000. [00:45:21] Danielle: Oh, okay. [00:45:22] John: So she saw me before. [00:45:24] She saw the struggle. Sure, she has two. Great kids. [00:45:29] And she adopted me as her third child. Wow. She saw the ability to help me. And so I had a filmmaker friend of mine reach out and said, John, I'd love your story. [00:45:45] I want to film a documentary on you. And I'm like, cool. So I realized I'm paying for the damn documentary. [00:45:51] Danielle: Oh. So I wanna offer you this gift, and by the way, here's the bill. [00:45:55] John: Yes, exactly. But at that point, I'm all in and I'm like, what do I have to lose? I'm a risk taker. I can afford it. [00:46:01] I've got money in the bank. [00:46:03] Let's make sure we stay on budget or close to budget, so there I am working on Jamie's computer and I'm staring at the screen and I'm summoning the courage. Ask Jamie. So I'm telling her the story. My friend Ryan's gonna direct this documentary about my life and my journey, and then I pause and I'm just staring at the screen. [00:46:23] I feel these eyes burning into the side of my head. [00:46:26] Mm-hmm. [00:46:28] John: And Jamie says, and [00:46:32] Danielle: I love that she didn't do it for you, but she made you do it. [00:46:36] John: And then at that point, I realized what the question was. I said, Jamie, will you be in my documentary? [00:46:44] And she goes, fuck yes, I will. [00:46:48] Danielle: Yeah. [00:46:49] John: She gets it. [00:46:50] Yeah. [00:46:51] John: Going through her sobriety, she wears her sobriety on her. Shoulder as a badge of honor. [00:47:00] And that is her message. [00:47:02] Yeah. [00:47:03] John: If she can get people to stop drinking by showing up for people. That's her ultimate goal in life. And so, she saw in me what I didn't see, [00:47:18] Danielle: and you asked the question. I think it's a lesson that I feel like I'm eternally playing a game of peekaboo with where I forget, and then I remember and then I forget and then I remember. But like the opportunities that you're asking for, you have to ask. [00:47:39] Yes. You have to say the thing. Right. Which is so brave and so vulnerable. But then the magic is sometimes when you ask, someone will say Yes. Now, in your case, she was essentially lovingly poking you until you, [00:47:55] John: asked. There was a point where I was debating plastic surgery. [00:48:00] Did I want to try to fix my face? Because at the end of the day, I wanted symmetry at rest. I wanted to be able to get rid of the droopiness and just, have a symmetrical base. That's all I really wanted. Sure. And because I would say, I hit my smile. And I've had friends come up and say, John, your first smile, we love your smile. [00:48:23] But I didn't love my smile. And until I, not up here, not in my head, but in my heart, accepted my smile. I couldn't move forward. I couldn't heal. And once I accepted my new smile, I found joy. I found that I could love myself. [00:48:46] And what's funny is when you get to that point, [00:48:49] yeah. [00:48:50] John: You overcome whatever that thing is that's holding you back. [00:48:53] Yeah. [00:48:54] John: And you want to share it with every person you come in contact with. [00:49:00] Danielle: Yeah. You are the love you're seeking. [00:49:02] John: Yes. Yes. And you are your acceptance. [00:49:05] Danielle: It reminds me of, something. He said in an interview, in, A New Earth, but author Eckert Tolle said that right before his essential death of the, he called it the death of his ego, but we could call it enlightenment or rebirth. [00:49:19] But he remembers the last thing he said before he went to sleep was, I can't live with myself anymore. And it wasn't about in the interpretation , of , taking one's own life . but what he realized is that he couldn't live with the self that was hating him. He couldn't live with that self. [00:49:40] And that self never woke up. But he did. [00:49:45] John: Through my journey [00:49:46] Of coming to accept myself for who I am. I immediately see others. [00:49:53] Yeah. [00:49:53] John: How they're hiding. [00:49:54] Before they recognize it. And so my coaching is all about not saying, this is why you're hiding. [00:50:03] That's what's holding you back. [00:50:06] Danielle: What you said about once you, you see somebody's wall so clearly because you understand your own so well. My less eloquent way of saying that to clients, it's once you smell bullshit, you can't unm it. It's the scent in the air and you're like, huh, what am I smelling? [00:50:23] Oh, it's bullshit. Well, John, I would love to know your, don't cut your own bang moment. [00:50:30] John: I'm backstage. There are a thousand people in the audience and I had theatrical training I had a talk memorized. It had to be 12 minutes long. [00:50:39] I'm doing a magic trick with other people that are coming up stage. I needed to control that. I got there early the morning of the TED Talk and helped the guys focus the lights so that it looked better. I'm all in. I want to shine in this TED Talk. , I remember I'm going up on stage and I'm saying, to the cherry picker operator, can I give you a hand? Because I have lighting experience. And I expected the presenter come and say, no, John, you're the actor. Go in your, the green room and there's some donuts and coffee , and we'll call you already, but you didn't. She knew that I was there to make the entire event better. And she let me do it, [00:51:18] That's awesome. [00:51:19] John: This is my first real speech. Okay, in front of a thousand people. And I knew that I had a limited time to get the audience on my side. [00:51:30] Get the audience engaged. How was I gonna be able to break their, going through their phone, talking to a neighbor, drinking, eating, snacking in a full day of speech? [00:51:41] Yeah. [00:51:43] John: So I said, I wanna go first. And everybody has said, great, but we don't, you can go first. And right before the mc went on stage to introduce me. I did a magic trick war. I turned Monopoly money into real money and then back again. [00:52:00] So as a magician, everything was possible. I turned monopoly into real money, but then I realized that's actually called counterfeiting he stays out for like seven seconds. I did that to the mc and now he just saw a miracle happen. [00:52:16] So he turns around and walks on stage beaming, and he told that story to the audience and said, Hey guys, your next speaker just did a miracle. He turned monopoly money into real money in front of my eyes. Pay attention to this cat. [00:52:37] Yeah. [00:52:38] John: So I walked on that stage. I had the love of everybody in the audience that everybody wanted to see what I was gonna do. [00:52:46] Everybody wanted to hear what I was gonna say, so I didn't have to warm up the audience. I got the mc to do it for me. Genius. And I do that every time I speak because it works but anyway, three quarters of the speech, I'm standing on my red circle and I'm delivering my talk. [00:53:08] And the front lights go out. [00:53:10] Danielle: Wait, you were three fours of the way done when they went out. [00:53:13] John: I'm standing in shadows. And my first reaction was, whoa. That Whoa. Got the lighting guy to realize, holy shit, I hit the wrong button, and he brought the lights slowly back up. [00:53:27] As the lights went back up, I went magic [00:53:32] and so I got an amazing laugh from the audience. [00:53:36] Because I cut the tension, I was doing improv. [00:53:38] I remember walking off stage and the producer of the event said, John, don't worry about, we'll edit that part out. And I said, don't you dare. That was my finest moment. Don't you dare edit that out. [00:53:54] I want that in the video. [00:53:57] She just smiled as I went back to the dressing room and sat down and then the adrenaline was like, whew. Walking out into the audience after the event and having strangers just come up to me and wanna hug me and say, holy cow, I resonate with your message. [00:54:18] And my message on the TED Talk was, treat people are different with respect to compassion. [00:54:23] That's what TED talks are all about. You want one key message and that was my message. [00:54:27] You never know, you might be in their shoes in an instant. [00:54:34] Danielle: I wanna add to that, another way to speak to the value of doing some self investigation, whether that's through journaling, through therapy, or seeking out a coach from someone like yourself is, because that expression of, treat other people the way you would wanna be treated. [00:54:53] What I know is that we don't treat ourselves all that well. A lot of us, many of us don't treat ourselves well, which is why accessing the compassion. Of treating others kindly is sometimes harder for us to find, jumping to criticism or judgment, because there's something we are rejecting in us. [00:55:13] So I think a way to do the thing you're saying , that beautiful treat others with kindness and compassion. The best way to do that is to look within. And I invite anybody listening to go to the show notes, visit John's website, seek out a coaching call, grab a copy of his book. There are resources that can help you be kinder to yourself, to lowering the walls, to lifting the veil, to seeing yourself in a new way, to performing the ultimate illusion, which is [00:55:52] to love yourself more fully exactly as you are so that we can be kinder to each other. 'cause we need that, we need a lot more kindness. [00:56:00] Thank you, John. Do we have the information we need for our listeners to get the special code? [00:56:06] John: John kipping.com. [00:56:08] Slash free gift. [00:56:11] Danielle: Ooh, you heard it here. John kipping.com/free gift. And this is only the gift for those of you who have listened this far. [00:56:20] So if you listen to the beginning and you just try to skip to the show notes, sorry. You ain't getting a gift. Thank you, John. [00:56:28] Thank you so much for joining me on this incredible episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you love listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. My favorite episodes are the ones where I get to learn something too. I'm also a listener. And benefiting from the wisdom and insights of all of the experts, creatives, performers, adventurers seekers that I get an opportunity to meet in this podcast format. [00:56:56] Don't forget to check out the show notes and please before you sign off , always remember rate, review, subscribe to the podcast when you interact with the podcast. It just helps send it out like a rocket ship to other people that are looking for the same value that you are. And it also helps create a conversation where I can continue to develop and cultivate something that benefits you more and is more fun for you to listen to. Feedback is great, and also if you just wanna throw a compliment, that's sweet too. But thank you so much for being here. [00:57:26] Your intention, your time mean the absolute world to me, and I hope you continue to have an incredible day. [00:57:32] ​

美股不斷創高，科技股貢獻尤多，而先前通過的大而美法案中，最受惠的仍然是 AI 與半導體公司，大而美法案中到底都有哪些細節？ 本集邀請研究員 Ralice 來聊聊，企業條款為何最惠及 AI 與半導體？大而美促進核能復興？為何要增加國防與邊境安全支出？

Jess, Sarina, Jennie and Jess are all here to talk about taking a break from various angles: the mechanics angle, the guilt angle, the fear angle, the identity angle and inspiration angle. Mechanics. * Leave yourself notes about the project when you leave off, for example, “The next thing that needs to happen is this…” so when you come back, you know how to get back into the project. This is Sarina's daily practice, but it really helps when she has to leave a project behind. This can be especially helpful when you have to go away for an unexpected emergency. * Jennie adds that the only way you can do this is if you have a place to keep and find those notes to yourself. In one of your 47 notebooks or in the document itself? Or, as Jess adds, on the side of the cardboard box you use for trash in your basement workshop that you almost recycle by accident. * Jennie also notes that you have to have intentionality, to know what you are writing so you can know what comes next, whether that's in your outline, inside outline, or whatever. * Jennie has a little notebook she brings on vacation with her and she downloads those ideas into that just before going to sleep at night when she's away. * These vacation inspiration moments are much like shower thoughts, part of the magic of our brain unhooking, getting into deep default mode network, and becoming its most creative. * Sarina mentioned an article about how walking makes you more creative, also a study in why tapping into the default mode network is so effective as a practice. Fear * The only way to get over this is to sit down and do it. Open the document. Just start. * Jennie points out that getting back into a manuscript when it's disappeared feels horrifying but it's much easier than it sounds and has happened to one of our frequent guests, Sarah Stewart Taylor, when her then-toddler created a password for the document that was not recoverable. She had to give in to the fact that her book was gone, and recreate it out of her memory. Guilt and Identity* It only took Jess until her fiftieth year to figure out that her process - of walking, gardening, beekeeping, musing - is a part of writing, and that's cool. * Can you be a writer if you are not actively writing? Yes, if research, planning, thinking and otherwise cogitating is a part of your writing process. Get over it. The words have to land on the page eventually, of course, but if you are doing both, have grace for the not-actively-writing part of the writing process. #AmReadingTess Gerritsen's series set in Maine (The Spy Coast and The Summer Guests) and, once she finished those two books, Jess went back to The Surgeon, where it all started for Tess Gerritsen. Stay tuned for our interview with her! Andy Weir's Project Hail Mary (Don't watch the movie trailer if you plan to read the book!)Sarah Harman's All the Other Mothers Hate MeAmy Tintera's Listen for the LieRosemerry Wahtola Trommer The UnfoldingRichard Osman's The Thursday Murder Club (coming to Netflix in August!)Janelle Brown's What Kind of Paradise Want to submit a first page to Booklab? Fill out the form HERE.Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love #AmWriting and I know you do, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been #AmDoing: sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing.Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Transcript below!EPISODE 458 - TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell'AntoniaWriters and readers, KJ here. If you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been ‘hashtag am-doing', sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done—which, I mean, that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at KJdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing or of course in the show notes for this podcast. Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.KJ Dell'AntoniaHey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the weekly podcast, while writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. And somebody told me they thought this was a recorded intro. And I just want you to know I do this live every time, which is why there's this, come on, there's more variety here, people, and you should know that. Anyway, here we are, all four of us, for we got a topic today. But before we do that, we should introduce ourselves in order of seniority, please.Jess LaheyI'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And I laugh, because when you said seniority, all I could do was think of us in our little eave space in my old house, down the street from you, not knowing what the heck we were doing. But yeah, we've been doing this for a long time now. You can find my... you can find my journalism at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, at The Atlantic, and everything else at Jessicalahey.com.Sarina BowenI'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many novels. My new one this fall is called Thrown for a Loop, and it will be everywhere that books are sold, which is very exciting to me, and all about me at Sarinabowen.com.Jennie NashI am the newest of the co-hosts, and so happy to be among this group of incredibly smart and prolific and awesome women, and I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And you can find us at bookcoaches.com or authoraccelerator.com.KJ Dell'AntoniaI'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of three novels, the latest of which is Playing the Witch Card, and the most televised of which is The Chicken Sisters—Season Two coming soon to a Hallmark network near you. And I'm also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode, making me our... well, and Jennie too, like the crossover. I've done too many different kinds of writing—probably should have stayed in my lane. Oh well. And our plan today—as we're recording, it is summer. And a pretty frequent thing that happens in the summer is that you need to put your project down for a little while, because you have house guests, because you're going on the kind of vacation that does not involve working, because you just need a break or you're sick. That's not really a summer thing, but it definitely happens. Anyway, we wanted to talk about how, you know, what—what do you do to make that work better?Jess LaheyI think a lot about being a parent and needing to take a break too. And you know, this is something I talk a lot about with, you know, other writers who are sort of struggling, especially since I read a lot about parenting—who are struggling to—with that guilt of, you know, like, I feel like I owe my time to the words, and I feel like I owe my time to the children. And finding a way to take a break from the words and not feel guilty about not being with the words can be really, really hard, especially when you're going gung-ho on something. So I want to make sure that we figure out a way to have a break without guilt. That's like the big question I get a lot—is, how do you, you know, either from the parenting or the writing side?KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd I was thinking about it more from a mechanics side.Jess LaheyYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaHow do you put this thing aside for a week or two weeks or even a month? And know where you were?Jess LaheyRight.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd come back and feel like it does not take you forever to dig in.Sarina BowenYeah. Um, so we've got the guilt question. We've got the mechanics of how to do it. And I would just like to add a layer, which is the fear factor.Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenI have this thing where, when I walk away from a manuscript, I become afraid of it. So it seems scarier when I take a break. Like, even if it's not true—that I don't know where I am or that I become unmoored from the channel of that book and it seems intimidating to go back to.Jess LaheyCan I add one more layer as well? And that's the identity factor. You know, if I identify as a writer, what am I if I'm not actively writing something? And that messes my head up a lot. So I would love to add that added layer in as well and make sure we discuss that.Jennie NashWell, and I have something totally different from all of those, which is that I often find when I go on vacation, I am more inspired and motivated to work on my project than I was in my real life. It tends to light a fire under me. So then I'm faced with that choice of, you know, wanting to really lean into it. And, you know, just like a really small piece of that story is, I love to write on airplanes. I just love it. Give me a very long flight, and it's—I just want to work and not talk to anybody. And, you know, it's awesome. So I feel some guilt around that. When I'm with my family, it's like, don't talk to me, don't watch movies. You know, I'm—I'm enjoying my plane time, doing my work. So I have that reality.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, that's the choice that you have to start with, is, am I just, you know, can I not? Am I—do I need to accept the reality, which is that this is a beach trip with extended family and some, you know, my—to multiple generations, and I inevitably am going to be the person who is cooking and figuring out where the garbage has to go in the Airbnb? I should, you know, I—I will feel better if I just accept the reality that I'm not going to wake and work. Or, you know, is it a—is it a trip where you can schedule some work time and want to? Or is it a trip where you affirmatively want to give yourself a break? Or is it also, I mean, I sort of think that the last possibility—well, there are probably multiples—is I just want to touch this every day. So I feel like you can kind of—you're like, you're either like, just—no, not going to happen, not going to pretend it's going to happen, not going to feel the guilt. That's the—that's where we are. And there's sort of a, I just want to open the file every day and keep it warm and friendly. And on, you know these three—three days I have an hour.Jess LaheySo let's do this. Let's—let's do mechanics first, since that's the real nuts-and-bolts stuff, and then we'll talk about all the touchy-feely stuff after that. So let's do mechanics first. It sounds like you have thoughts, KJ…?KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, I was actually thinking that Sarina did this pretty recently.Jess LaheyYeah, that's true.Sarina BowenYeah. Like, you know, I, um, I have found mechanically that leaving yourself notes every time you walk away from your manuscript is a good thing. So this is sort of like a best practices in your life idea, where I will have a writing day, and it's done now, and I'm going to get up and go do other things in my life. If I pick up my notebook, and I write down where I am—like, okay, and the next thing that has to happen is this—like, it could be really short or not. But taking better notes about the structure of the thing I'm working on is serving me on so many levels that it just slots right in here. Like, I took a big trip in April, and I thought I might work, but then I didn't, and I really seamlessly came right back in, because I knew where I was, and I avoided a lot of my own fear. So, if the practices that help you become a good day-to-day writer also can be practices that help you in this very instance, the mechanics of picking up your book again are that you left yourself a note right in your document, um, or in your notebook, that says, and here's what I think is supposed to happen next. And, yeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's going to be gold for an unexpected break too, because that happens, you know, right? You get one of those phone calls, and it's a week before you're back or more.Sarina BowenYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah. I love this practice. This is one of those things I forget to do.Jennie NashI feel like I—I feel like I have to add to that a couple things. That the only reason you can do that is, A, if you have a place to take notes, which—which could be your, the document itself that you're working on. But Sarina talked about a notebook, right? You have a place that you know, that you can find that, which is not an insignificant thing to have, or...Sarina BowenCorrect!Jennie NashRight?! Or, in the case of me, it's like, I have 47 notebooks. Well, which one did I put the note in?Sarina BowenRight.Jennie NashBut then the second thing is, I mean, this is something that I find so inspiring about the way you work, Sarina, and it—and it's a thing that I teach—is you have to know what you're writing, you know, in order to know where you are, what the structure is, and what you're doing, and to ask those—like, you have to have done the thought work of what, what it is you're trying to do and what your intention is. Otherwise, you sort of don't ever know where you are or where you're going. So...Sarina BowenRight, but that's on two levels. Like, you could—let's just say you have successfully written yourself an Inside Outline, you know, the way that you do it—you still might need that granular thing.Jennie NashOh yeah!Sarina BowenLike, you might know where you are in the arc of the book, but you might actually need the note that's like, "And now we're going to wash the dishes." I mean, let's please not put that in the novel, but you know what I mean.Jennie NashYeah, yeah. But that intentionality of, on the big picture, what am I doing, and on the small picture—in this chapter, in this scene, in this moment, and with this character—what was I... how'd that fit into the whole? What was I thinking? And those things are not—they're not easy. Like, we're talking about them like, "Oh, you just..." You know, like I was saying, what if you have 47 notebooks? That literally is a problem I have. It's like, I know I wrote this note down, and I don't know where I put it—digitally or analog.Sarina BowenRight. I confess I actually do still have this problem. Like, even with all of my best practices, like, put into—sometimes it's like, well, is that in the document, or is it in my notebook? And then—or I thought about it at four in the morning and actually didn't write it down anywhere. And I'm looking anyway...Jennie NashOh, I do that too. I absolutely do that too. I'm convinced that I left a note while I was driving—that's a thing I often do. I'll leave—I'll have Siri write me a note, and then somehow it doesn't appear, or it's like, I know I did this, I know I asked her to do this... you know.Jess LaheyI actually have—I was doing the recycling, and I realized that I was in big trouble because three sides of a box I'd had down in the basement with me while I was working on a project—I was doing something with my, getting some beehives ready—and I was listening to an audiobook that is research for a project I'm working on, and I had scribbled some really important notes to myself about how I was supposed to start a chapter on. And it was a great start. It was like a whole paragraph on the three sides of the box, with an old Sharpie I found down in the basement. And then I realized I almost recycled, like, some really useful outline stuff.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheySo normally—no, so I actually have them. While you guys are talking about something else, since we do see each other while we're recording this, I'll show you later. But the thing that I normally do is either in the document, like right where I left off, or in my main notebook, because I am so bad at finding those notes that I have strewn all over my office or on the side of a cardboard box.KJ Dell'AntoniaI have had the problem lately of I'm not in a manuscript, and that it's much easier when you're in a manuscript to come back to a manuscript, but I'm in a notebook full of assorted random Blueprint challenge, you know, like trying to—I'm, I'm in figuring out where this is going mode, which means I do a lot of thinking while I'm not working that then hopefully I go and write down. But it also means that I frequently sit down and I'm like, well, am I going to think about who these people are? Am I going to think about what the plot is? What am I going to do? So I've been trying to leave myself like a task, something that will, that will just get me, get me back in, because sometimes that's the problem. I, you know, I open the notebook, and there's no obvious thing to do, and the next thing I know, I'm buying running shoes.Jennie NashWell, since we're talking about nuts and bolts, when I said that I often get inspired when I go away or go on vacation and I want to work, I'm not talking about I'm going to go sit in a library or coffee shop for three hours. What, what I mean by that is I often have ideas that I want to capture, and so I have a little notebook that I bring on vacation, and what I like to do is go to bed early enough that I can download all the things I thought that day. I need that space and time to—if it's, if I'm working on something, it's in my head. It's not going to not be in my head. And so the one sort of new mechanical thing that I, that I do, is have that "vacation notes notebook" with me.KJ Dell'AntoniaI always carry one, and I never use it. So there's that.Jess LaheyI get—I am at my most inspired to write when I specifically can't write, which is usually behind the wheel of my car. So I use, in my car, I have been known to, you know, either scribble on things—which, totally don't do that—or to record myself on my phone. But then, audio things, I'm particularly bad at going back and listening to; that seems like it's just too much work. So those tend to get lost a lot. I need to come up with a better system for that. But it is predictable that if I am in a place where I cannot physically write, I will be at my most inspired to write.Jennie NashJess, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's what happens to me, is I might say I'm leaving all work behind. I'm going off the grid. I'm not doing the thing. And that's when I most want to do the thing. And I, like, my brain seems to really get inspired. What? What do you think that's about? Is that...Jess LaheyI, you know, I, I was very worried that it was my sort of, um—sorry, what's the word I'm looking for? It was—it's my, my brain's way of saying, "Oh, you couldn't possibly work now, so let's have some of the best ideas so that you seem like a good little doobie writer, but it's physically impossible for you to write now." It's just a really weird thing, and maybe one of the other things I thought about is that I'm often listening to a book that I'm really into, which also inspires me to write. I've been listening to a lot of really great books lately, and you can't listen to a book—even one that inspires you deeply—and actually write at the same time, which is another quandary.Sarina BowenYou know what, though? This is not uniquely your brain messing with you—like, this is shower thoughts.Multiple Speakers[Overlapping: “Mm-hmm.” “Sorry.” “Ohhh...”]Sarina BowenBut everybody—everybody has those great ideas in the shower, and it's because you have unhooked yourself. You are just in there with the shampoo and the conditioner and that razor that you probably should change the blade with, and like, you know, there is nowhere to write and nothing to do. So your brain is like, I am free right now to unclench and actually solve this problem of chapter 17, and that's what—that's what happens.Jess LaheyIt is my duty, whenever we mention this, to bring up that—years ago, Ron Lieber, the write... uh... the "Your Money" columnist at The New York Times, told me that he has a waterproof little whiteboard situation that's— that lives in the shower. He and his wife, Jodi Kantor—amazing writer as well, Pulitzer Prize–winning writer, even— that these would be people who might just need a waterproof whiteboard in the shower with them.Sarina BowenBut would that ruin the magic…?KJ Dell'AntoniaIt might just...Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheyIf you had a place to write it down, your brain would—like—be... your brain would say, "Sorry, I'm not coming up with good ideas."Sarina BowenBecause I don't think I am willing to take this risk. I take a lot of risks in my life, but this one—like; we do not mess with the shower thoughts. I think, I think...KJ Dell'AntoniaSo, so what do we do if you didn't do any of this? If what—you know—what are—you're listening to this podcast, coming back from your trip, and you're like, I... was writing... something...Sarina BowenYou know what, though? I almost feel that we should point out the fact that, like, that is kind of unlikely. Like, somebody should feel welcome to take this trip and to have all those thoughts, and even if you didn't write them down on your whiteboard in the shower or on your handy notebook, like, I would argue that unhitching yourself in the first place possibly leads to a lot of creative development that, even if you don't capture it in the moment, is still with you. Like, I had this fantastic trip in April. I thought I was going to work, and then I did not, and it was, like, the best two weeks of my life. So then, the other day, my husband said, “Hey, there's a new article you need to read in The Athletic,” which is a New York Times sports blog, and I have just pulled it up so that we can recommend it, about how walking makes you a better problem solver. And the framing story of this article is about a retired baseball coach, but, um, but then, when they got around to studying it, um, they said this question planted the seed for the first set of studies to measure if walking produces more creativity. In the series of experiments, Oppezzo and Schwartz [Marily Oppezzo & Daniel L. Schwartz] asked 176 college students to complete different creative thinking tasks while sitting, walking on a treadmill, walking outside through campus, or being pushed in a wheelchair. In one example, the students had to come up with atypical uses for random objects, and anyway, on average, the students' creative output increased by 60% when they were walking.Jennie NashThat's so cool!Sarina BowenAnd the article is—it's so cool—it's called An MLB manager found value in long walks. Research suggests it's a ‘brain-changing power'.Jess LaheyI have put a spot for it in the show notes. And I should mention that this is all part of what we call the default mode network. This is the—the part of our brain that is the wandering, most creative part of our brain. And we can get there lots of ways. Walking is a fantastic way to do it.KJ Dell'AntoniaSarina, if you do have the fear of the manuscript when you're coming back to it, like, take—you know, travel back in time to maybe when you were a little less confident in your abilities. What do you do to get past the fear and sit down?Sarina BowenThere is only one solution, and that is sitting down. And I'm not so great at this—like, when, when the fear creeps up on me, in spite of my best intentions, man, I will do anything to avoid that sucker. And then when I finally do, and I wade back in, almost every time my response is, Oh, this isn't so bad. I know where—I kind of remember now. It's going to be fine, you know. But it's so easy to put off work out of fear. It's—it's the—it's the one big obstacle. Like, I don't put work off for other reasons, you know, because I'm tired or whatever. It's because I'm afraid that there's something fundamentally wrong with the project, or fundamentally wrong with me, and that is almost always what's keeping me from doing good work.Jennie NashThere was, back in the day before computers became what they are now, people would frequently lose manuscript drafts. It was just much harder to save your work. And I can't—I can't explain exactly what changed, but it was. People frequently lost huge chunks of their work if they didn't actively back up. And when I was a new coach and working with writers who would lose their manuscripts, they would be—understandably—beyond devastated. And this often was full manuscripts, just unrecoverable, full manuscripts. And it was true that if they sat down to recreate what they'd written, it would really flow from them, for that same reason—it was still in their brain. They—they had—they'd written it, so there was a sense that they had, they owned it, and they could sit down, and it was kind of quite remarkable. And I would confidently say to them, just sit down, start writing. I think it will come to you, and it always did. It's very interesting.Jess LaheyThere's an example—we've interviewed Sarah Stewart Taylor many times now, and she tells the story of, a long time ago, her youngest managed to crawl across the computer in such a way as to create a password for the document itself, and there's nothing that can be done. She was on the phone with Word—with Microsoft—for a long time, and they're like, look, this is a password you created. We can't—that's not recoverable. So she had to go and recreate—I believe she was about a third of the way into a book—but she said that it actually flowed really well, and that, you know, she'd had it, it had been cooking and stuff like that. So that massive fear of, oh my gosh, how am I going to get back into this project when it has just disappeared? It turned out to be not a thing—that it actually came really easily to her.Jennie NashJess, you're bringing all the very weird stories today, and I'm so here for it—notes on boxes, babies making passwords.Jess LaheyYeah, well, and the hard part—the funny part about that—is like, you cannot recreate a toddler, essentially, like bashing away at your keyboard and creating a password that's never coming back. Sorry.Sarina BowenThere is a writer—she once gave a talk that I heard—a very successful young adult author, Cynthia Leitich Smith, and she apparently wrote a discovery draft of the novel to, like, figure out what it was about and then deleted it and started over on purpose.Jennie NashOn purpose?!Sarina BowenYes, and everyone in the room gasped because, of course, you know that I just rather, like, been in a lot of pain. I'd rather have oral surgery than delete my first draft of a novel. But, um... but yeah, if she was unafraid to get back there after that kind of break, then I think we can all handle it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThis is true. I've never deleted a draft, but I have just gone—poofft—"Let's, let's, let's start again." In fact, almost every time. Kind of sad. I'm doing it now, actually, but it's not a full draft. Anyway. So take the breaks, right? That's what we're saying here.Sarina BowenYeah, take the break.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou can break however you do it, you know, whichever thing you pick, and if you don't do what you thought you were going to do, that's cool, too. It's going to—it's going to be fine.Jess LaheyCan I mention something that has—so that now that we've sort of done mechanics, we've done a little bit about the fear thing, the—the identity thing—has been really hard for me, in that I have these two books that I've written, and I've written a bunch and researched a bunch of things over the past couple of years, and people keep asking me, what are you writing? What are you writing? And the reality is, like, I'm not. I'm working on something, I'm researching something, and I've written a lot of things. In fact, now I'm holding up my cardboard box pieces—I found them. But the day—I'm not, like, meeting a 1200-words-a-day goal. And sometimes I feel really... I feel like a fraud. I feel like a massive fraud. Like, what kind of writer is not actually sitting down and writing 2,000 words a day? And that's incredibly difficult for me. Like, I don't deserve to call myself a writer, even though I have a couple of books out there and I wrote—you know—did all this other stuff. But the thing that I have—there are a couple of things that have really helped—and one of those is to understand that and have some grace for myself around what I happen to know full well what my process is. Yes, I wrote a couple of book proposals that didn't turn into books, but it was only through writing the book proposals that I discovered that those books weren't something that I wanted to write, and only through doing all of this research on audiobooks and writing on the side of cardboard boxes. That's the way I've written every one of my books. And it's not—it's just what works for me. And so having a little bit of this, you know, this feeling of insecurity as a writer, I don't think is—I don't think is unique to me. I think a lot of writers feel this, and it's...KJ Dell'AntoniaNo, all the rest of them are...Jess LaheyAll of them are really...KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, no, everyone else is just like, well, of course. No, I'm not an imposter.Jess LaheyBut what's great is when I sit down with other writers and I say, what is an integral part of your process that isn't actually about putting the words on the page? That's not some bogus, like, excuse for not writing. You know, the gardening is part of it, the—the research is part of it, the listening to audiobooks is part of it. The writing—or the walking—is part of it. And it's not just a part of it. It is an incredibly important part of it for me, and—and understanding that and owning that about myself has been really a good thing for allowing myself to not—I'm not productive when I just feel guilty or like an imposter every day. It—that's not good for my process. But none of you ever feel that, right?KJ Dell'AntoniaOr apparently the people around you…Jess LaheyThe other thing that has been—well, the other thing that's been really, really helpful is the—and especially from the parenting perspective—is, or the marriage perspective, or the dog perspective, or the bees perspective, is I need to be fully committed to the thing right in front of me when I'm doing that thing. And if I'm feeling guilty about not being with the words when I'm with my children, or not being with my children when I'm with the words, that is awful, too. And so I have found that when I have to let go of all the other stuff and be fully, 100% in, I'm highly distractible. And so if I'm not fully in the thing, and that—all that guilt of not being over there doing that other thing—that's just taking away from the actual process of writing or researching or whatever it is, or taking care of my bees. I have to be fully in the thing I'm in and not feel guilty about not doing something else. And that's been a growth moment for me, too. It only took me—how old am I? I'm 55 now, and I got there somewhere around 50, I think.Jennie NashThere is also—I mean, I—I love what you're saying, and that is a thing to strive for, for sure—to be, to be present in whatever you're doing. But there is also this idea—I always think of it as mental real estate—that you leave for your project, for your idea, for your writing, for your book. That you, that you have a space in your brain devoted to that, and that you visit, whether or not you're producing words. And I think that that, too, is writing. I think, in some ways, that's more writing than sitting at the keyboard. I mean, I always object to the process of just putting words down. And a lot of the things that challenge writers to do that, because they skip that part—the thinking part and the having-the-part—you know, the real estate-in-your-brain part. And I think this connects to the shower—shower thoughts, right? You're gardening or beekeeping, you're walking, you're thinking, you're writing proposals and throwing them out. You're doing all that, that, that's writing. That's the—that's writing in my mind.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd it's not... I mean the other thing we do say a lot is, you know, "Good writing comes last."Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou've got to do the other stuff. So you can do it on vacation, or you could not do it on vacation. This—I don't think—we just—maybe I—this was my idea, and I think maybe I just needed the reassurance. I have a couple weeks coming up where I'm probably not going to do anything, and I just needed a reminder that that's cool. That's cool. It's all right. It's going to be okay. That's what I—if y'all could just pat me on the head and say "it's going to be okay."Multiple Speakers[Overlapping voices: “Mm-hmm,” “Sorry,” “Ohhh...”]KJ Dell'AntoniaSix or ten times an hour, that might be about what I need.Jess LaheyWell and one of the other things that has been really cool this summer is I've been on a streak of really good books. And every one of those really good books that I've been reading has made me like, Oh, I could do this. Oh my gosh, I could do that. I could write like her. I could I could write this other thing. And it's, it's all that energy is good and it's all a good thing to sit on a beach and read a book, or sit in the woods and read a book. It's all great.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, everybody, go collect some energy. Hey, on that note, who's read something good lately?Jennie NashI want to hear all these great books, Jess.Jess LaheySo I really have been on this roll. I've already talked about Atmosphere in an earlier podcast, the Taylor Jenkins Reid thing. But then I've been on this Tess Gerritsen jag, because we're—I'm interviewing Tess Gerritsen later this week. You guys will get to hear her later this summer. I am... Sarina and KJ, I believe, read the first of her new series that she has set in Maine and with a couple of retired CIA agents and spies in Maine. And then I enjoyed those so much that I went all the way back to the beginning—to her first book, The Surgeon, which I didn't even know was turned into this whole series called Rizzoli and Isles. It's a television show—I had no idea. And now I'm deep into Tess Gerritsen land. I'm still—I found out that there's going to be a movie of the book by the guy who wrote The Martian, Andy...Sarina BowenAndy WeirJess LaheyAndy Weir, thank you. And I was warned very specifically on social media not to watch the preview—the trailer—for the new movie that is going to be coming out with Ryan Gosling later on this summer, because it ruins the book. The book is called Hail Mary… Project Hail Mary. So I very quickly turned away from social media and said, Ooh, I better read the book really quickly before anyone ruins it for me, and I am enjoying the heck out of Project Hail Mary. So it's been really fun. Yeah.Sarina BowenI am reading a book that KJ put into my hands. And the fun part is that I don't remember why she put it into my hands, you know. Like, why did I pick up this book? Like, it happens all the time. It's called All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harman.Jennie NashWhat a great title.Sarina BowenYeah, like, I picked up this book, and my husband said, oh my God, what a great title. And so, yes, that's super cool. And it's very voice-y. And the—the flap copy has the—a premise that smacks of a thriller, but the voice isn't like all deep, dark thriller. And so I think maybe the contrast of those two things might be why KJ put it into my hands. But I am enjoying the fabulous writing, and I'm—I'm still at the beginning, but the way she introduces characters is really sharp. So even that alone is like a little master class on introducing characters.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, that was why I gave it to you, was that we'd been talking about, you know, the voice, and also because we'd been talking about, like, funny thrillers versus thriller-y thrillers. And this isn't funny, but it's super voice-y. It reminds me of the one you pressed into my hands, which maybe is a little funnier—Listen for the Lie.Sarina BowenYeah, yeah.Jennie NashWell, I'm reading something very different, which is not—not very beachy. I go to a yoga class that is taught by a middle grade English teacher, and she runs her yoga class sort of like English class, where she always starts with a poem and throughout the class, she refers back to the poem in a very embodied way that you're doing the yoga around. And then she reads the poem again at the end. It's—its spectacular. She's—she's so popular at our yoga studio that you have to, you know, fight your way in. But she read a poem by a woman named Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer—and that's Rosemerry like Christmas Merry, so: Rosemerry. And the book is called The Unfolding. And I say it's very different from what you are all mentioning because this woman experienced the death of her young son and father in very close proximity, and her poems are ostensibly about grief, but they're just filled with joy and hope and delight. And, you know, it's kind of that thing you're talking about, Sarina—that it's—here's a book about tragedy and grief, but it's—there's something about the voice that just is—is fresh. And they're just—they're just stunning, just absolutely stunning. And I have gone and ordered all her books, of which there are—are many. So she's a new voice to me, and I just—I can't get enough of them. They're incredible.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, here I am going to go back to the fiction summary read-y thing. I am very late to The Thursday Murder Club party, but it is joy. It is so much fun—really your sort of classic Agatha Christie stuff, but way, way funnier and more entertaining, with a dash of elderly spies. So we're on that theme. And then I also want to mention, just because I liked it so much—and I'm not sure I want everyone to read it—What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. This could be your lit fic read of the summer. It's somewhere—but—but it's still a page turner. And I thought the premise was extremely great. Basically, it's: what if the Unabomber had also raised a young daughter with him in the woods on all of his theories, back when the Unabomber was living in the woods, and inadvertently involved her in his first kill before she got away? And now she's an adult looking back at what happened. And Janelle Brown is a Silicon Valley person. She's really steeped in this culture. She really knows this world. It's a really good book—plus super entertaining.Jennie NashI love it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's it!Jess LaheyI love it when we have a lot of good stuff, because there have been a couple weeks this year where we were like, I was just let down this time around. But yay, I'm loving this.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, I think that's it for us this week, kids. Remember, if you support the podcast, you get bonus content every week right now, because we are killing it. You might get Jess's Soup to Nuts series, where she is coaching a fellow writer on creating a nonfiction proposal that also will work with her speaking career. You can join me and Jennie on a weekly basis as we flail our way through the beginnings of writing a couple of books. And of course, on a monthly basis, we've got the Booklab, where we look at the First Pages of novels submitted by listeners. And if you'd like to submit to the Booklab, that'd be great. Jess will put the link in the show notes.Jess LaheyIndeed, Jess will. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe