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[本集節目由 Supermicro 美超微電腦贊助播出] Super Micro Computer, Inc. 為企業級運算、儲存、網路解決方案和綠色運算技術等領域的全球領導者。 Supermicro A+ 系統與組合式架構為第 3 代 AMD EPYC™ 處理器進行了優化，使得效能功耗比及性價比達到更出色的境界。 歡迎共同與 Supermicro 參加 Healthcare+ Expo，將於 2021 年 12 月 2 日至 5 日以絕佳性能、高可擴充性和高效率，為醫療保健領域的各種關鍵任務，提供最優化的解決方案。 了解更多： https://learn-more.supermicro.com/healthcareexpo-2021 ----------------------- 特別公告：收到許多聽眾回饋一次聽完一集 Podcast 的體驗較好，本集開始恢復每週日上架一集，感謝大家繼續支持我們的節目！
There's no way to connect these two today, except for the fact that they're homophones. It's Eminem vs M&M's! Ben stands up for the real Slim Shady himself, Eminem. Ryan tries to candy coat some arguments for M&M's. And it'll be up to Nick to judge which one is better! Discussion points include: false advertising, feuds, rap beefs, exoskeletons, cannibalism, pineapple, building cows, beastial pleasures, P90X, and the horniness of green M&M's.
本集一樣是擁有 10 萬用戶的 Joe's investment 主編 Joe 繼續聊房地產和投資心法！雖然節目中台語比較多，但我們還是對 Joe 的「金句」印象深刻！ 「不太需要訪綱，很多數字都內化在腦袋裡了」 「是什麼職業不太有關係，不會影響研究金融的興趣」 「並不是為了賺大錢去研究金融，而是研究了發現原來可以賺大錢」
This topic comes up so very often..."Is it okay to have a "cheat day?""How often can I eat ______?""Don't you ever desire or crave ______!?"Today we dig into the concept of "cheating" on a whole food plant-based lifestyle. However, this conversation spans far more broadly than just how we relate to food and lifestyle.The principles covered here are applicable to maintaining a healthy and peaceful relationship to all aspects of life.If you'd like to join these conversations live, be sure to Subscribe to the Alter Health YouTube Channel! https://www.youtube.com/alterhealthSome highlights from today's MM episode...- When we "cheat" we only cheat ourselves - A lifestyle should be sustainable and enjoyable- Cravings may indicate depletion or deficiency- There is nothing wrong with "messing up" or having a "bad day"- When we do our best and drop judgment we are free to expand furtherLinks to some more good stuff- Join Alter Health on Locals: https://alterhealth.locals.com/- Cleanse with Us during the next Alter Health Cleanse: https://www.alter.health/cleanse- Work with us in the Thrive on Plants program: https://www.alter.health/thrive-on-plants- ATTN Health Practitioners! Learn more and apply to the Plant Based Mind Body Practitioner Program: https://www.alter.health/pbmb-practitionerPeace and Love.
The ever unpredictable and outspoken Seraphim Ward Serpent Reign joined Mark and Nicole for a wild show. Seraphim wasted no time clearing the air about being sued by Marilyn Manson and having the case dismissed. She recounted dating Pogo aka Madonna Wayne Gacy the keyboardist of MM as well as how she met and dated actors such as Peter Greene and Esai Morales and even Trent Reznor and Glenn Danzig at the same time! She also discussed her various and controversial pseudonyms, leaving Los Angeles for New York, being an occultist, how she met her current boyfriend and having 100% serpent blood, which confirms she is an angel. This show is brought to you by Raze Energy Drinks Go to https://bit.ly/2VMoqkk and put in the coupon code DMS for 15% off the best energy drinks. Zero calories. Zero carbs. Zero crash. Renagade CBD Coming soon to www.renagadecbd.com
每年到了年終歲末，大家是不是已經開始在盤點今年的績效？這次我們邀請到擁有 10 萬用戶的 Joe's investment 主編 Joe 上節目！如果有參加全球總經影響力論壇，應該對 Joe 在講資產配置印象深刻，其實 Joe 不只了解資產配置，趕快來聽聽 Joe 聊總經、趨勢、甚至是 ETF 投資吧！
Mennene Marcus og Martinus tar turen for å lage listen topp 3 ideer til nye apper. Hva med en app som kan sende lukter? Hva med Wher's my dog app? Mads har også alliert seg sammen med M&M for å rundlure Rasmus. Produsent: Jørgen Vigdal
What does it take to get the help you need to change your life and create your own successful business? Well it simply takes you asking a question and you can do that easily by sending us an email on So let's move onto todays four question posed by listeners of the show and of course you can hear the answers directly on the show Dear David, question for you. How do you know what you are doing is going to be the right thing to do? Listening to your shows it seems the biggest thing to decide is to start, following in what to do? I would love to know your answer to this problem SL, Florida. Hi David, loving the show, I have created a successful pizza business in my town over the last four years. Now i am getting bored with it. Should I sell, or just suck it up? MM, Essex Hi David you sexy individual, i just thought i would ask you a question in a different way, but you talk about self development alot, but what have you learnt in the last day that you think is "Wow"! - love the show, HZ, Nicaragua Hi David, do you think that the dream of what you want to become is better than the reality? I am always starting things and get stuck in the drudgery, non sexy times and think "Ill do something else instead". Should i just persevere HT, Brighton
In the second part of this Oncology, Etc. episode Drs. Patrick Loehrer (Indiana University) and David Johnson (University of Texas) continue their conversation with Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann, exploring the prominent leadership roles she held, from first female Chancellor at UCSF to CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and member of Facebook's Board of Directors. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts | Additional resources: education.asco.org | Contact Us Air Date: 11/18/21 TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. PAT LOEHRER: Hi, Everybody. I'm Pat Loehrer. I'm director of the Centers of Global Health at Indiana University, Melvin and Bren Simon Comprehensive Cancer Center. DAVE JOHNSON: And I'm Dave Johnson. I'm Professor of Medicine here at UT Southwestern Medical School in Dallas, Texas. So Pat, we're back for another episode of the award winning "Oncology Et Cetera." PAT LOEHRER: Just seems like last month we were here time, you know? Time just flies. DAVE JOHNSON: Exactly. Before we get started, you were telling me about an interesting book you were reading-- something about friends or something. Can you elaborate? PAT LOEHRER: Sure, sure, yeah. This book I picked up-- actually, my wife picked it up. It's called First Friends. It's written by Gary Ginsburg. It's a really interesting book. It was-- basically talks about-- it probably has about eight or nine presidents but the importance of having a friend that guides him. And these were people that were, in many ways, unelected people that were close to the presidents that helped change the face of what we see today, and some of them are stories of really good friends and some of them are, I think, opportunistic friends. But it gives you a background of people like Madison and Lincoln and Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. It's actually a fun read. DAVE JOHNSON: I'll definitely put it on my reading list. It sounds like a pretty exciting one. Well, speaking of influential people, we're really excited to jump back into our interview with Dr. Helman. In our last episode, we covered her early life and career, her work in Uganda, her views on global oncology, and her experiences in private practice and industry. In the next half of our interview, we'll learn more about her incredible career and her multiple leadership roles. Let's start by hearing about her time as chancellor of UCSF. PAT LOEHRER: Let me transition a little bit. What I'd like to do is talk a little bit about your leadership. One Of the next big roles you had, you became chancellor at UCSF, correct? SPEAKER 2: Mm-hm. PAT LOEHRER: And so as Dave said, I think you were the first woman in that role. SPEAKER 2: I was. PAT LOEHRER: You were a groundbreaker from that capacity. So now instead of working for people-- obviously, I understand that there's people you work for when you're chancellor too, but tell a little bit about that transition from industry back into academics and how that felt in the role of being a leader and then maybe the responsibility of being the first female chancellor. SPEAKER 2: There were parts of being the chancellor at UCSF, I would say most parts of it, that I just thought were fantastic. I loved being back at a hospital and clinics. Just the way the hospital and clinical enterprise at UCSF works, the chancellor is the board. And so once a month, you'd have neurology or cardiology come and tell you about what had happened, quality control, things that had gone on and I would have done that all day long. I mean, it was just so interesting. It was so important to run a great clinical enterprise that getting back closer to patients and medicine I thought was fantastic. The other thing was the educational enterprise, and UCSF, as you know, has medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, nursing. I always tell people, no undergraduates, no English majors, no marching band. And the other chancellors reminded me, no athletic director, which apparently is a very good thing. So UCSF is a very special and unusual place. And I loved the science. I would show up at research seminars and things like that as often as I could. So there were so many parts of being at UCSF that I thought were just off the charts great. The hardest thing about being at UCSF-- being the first female chancellor, I think, was challenging but not in ways that you might expect. I was used to being a woman leader in medicine and biotech, which was unusual. So being the only woman in the room, being the first, wasn't new to me. But the thing that was hard on our family was there are roles for the spouse of the chancellor that fit more neatly into more of a classic female role, hosting things. There was a tea party for the wives of the faculty that the wife of the chancellor typically had. And for some reason, Nick didn't think that that suited him. We sort of laughed about that. DAVE JOHNSON: He can't make tea? SPEAKER 2: He can't make tea to save his life. And he's a strong introvert, which made it worse. I will tell you, some of the under-recognized, underreported people in life are spouses of chancellors and presidents of universities. And talk about unpaid labor-- my goodness! And so we sort of struggled with how did Nick show up, what did that look like. Because we didn't have any role models for what that looked like. I still laugh that Bill Clinton said he would be First Laddie. So when you have a pattern recognition, life is easier. And then being one of 10 chancellors at the UC system, I struggled a little bit with the UC Regents just because it felt-- I became chancellor in 2009, and we had some fiscal realities that we were dealing with. And the pace of the UC Regents and the format of the UC Regents, I actually made a proposal for UCSF to kind of break off from the other 9. And that was not well-received, got me in the newspaper. And I did not do that again. People saw it as disloyal and not very smart. But all in all, I thought then and think now that our public universities are absolutely-- they're treasures in America. And I was really proud to be a part of it and hope that I had made a contribution. DAVE JOHNSON: Speaking of leadership, what was it like to be CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? What caused you to step away from chancellor to philanthropy? PAT LOEHRER: It's not a step down. It's not a step down, basically. DAVE JOHNSON: It is not a step down. SPEAKER 2: So I would say a couple of things. First of all, Bill and Melinda pushed me hard to take the job. I was not looking to change. My husband worked at the Gates Foundation for a couple of years on HIV. So they knew us, and they knew Nick better than me. But they knew both of us. We awarded Melinda the University medal at UCSF. And to my great surprise and happiness, she accepted and came. I later think that she was using that as a reason to talk to me about the CEO job, but she got a twofer. And I was really compelled by the mission. Who wouldn't be? I was really compelled by the mission and the chance to get back into global health after the experience I had had in Uganda. But I'll tell you, it is the ambition of the Gate Foundation, the scope of the Gates Foundation, the resources, and the need to get something done. I tell you, it is hard work. It is really hard work-- from China to India to all of the continent of Africa and then US education. Throw that in on top of things. So I was thrilled to be a part of driving the agenda and the mission. Some really talented people who are working very hard at the Gates Foundation-- I was surprised, especially on US education, with the amount of pushback. And I worked really hard to be successful at working with Bill, who's known as a tough character and lived up to that mutation. DAVE JOHNSON: Good to know, just in case he calls Pat or me. PAT LOEHRER: Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to get a medal at UCSF either. So that's a-- DAVE JOHNSON: You never know, Pat. PAT LOEHRER: It's a non-starter. And this may not apply to you, but there's a lot of maybe disproportionate number of women who feel they suffer from this imposter syndrome. To be honest, Dave and I have talked about that. We both feel in that syndrome too. But along the way, I mean, if you think about growing up in Reno, Nevada, and suddenly now being a chancellor and head of the Gates Foundation, the National Academy of Science, was there ever this sense of the, wait a minute, you know, what's going on? Is this real? SPEAKER 2: For me, there has always been that sense. There has always been that sense, and I look at it as I hope there always will be that sense-- that the kind of need to demonstrate your value. And there's a part of the imposter syndrome that is humility and not overestimating what you can do. And so on my best days, I think that leads me to say I've got to work with really terrific people. My job is to bring out the best in others. If I lead, it's because there's a great thing we're going to accomplish, and I can help people see where we're going together. And so I definitely have had imposter syndrome. But the one thing that I probably overused and kind of grew to like too much was the thing of people underestimating me and then proving them wrong. That gets a little wearying after a while. It's like, OK, we're going to waste some time while you decide whether I'm worthy or whether I can do this. And let's not waste that time. Why don't you assign to me-- give me some confidence, and I'll live up to that. And I mentioned Art Levinson was my boss for most of the time I was at Genentech. And he had no time for imposter syndrome. He was like, look, how many promotions do you have to get before you think, OK, I can get this done? He thought that was sort of-- he just didn't have time for it. We have things to do, and he had jobs to get done. And one of the things I loved about him is he would constantly push me to say, you're capable of more than you think you are, which I think is the sign of a fantastic manager, which he was and is. And so I've tried to push myself to do that. And the thing is, like, you can do this. Come to me for help. We'll make sure you succeed, but don't underestimate yourself. And I think that's a consequence of imposter syndrome is both wasting time proving yourself and not taking on something that you think, actually, let me give that a try and stack the deck in favor of succeeding. And so I think that's the thing that-- there's a certain fierceness that I've always had that I like about myself that, like, of course we will succeed. Failure is not an option. Of course we will succeed. And I think that comes from working on things that I value a lot and care about a lot. PAT LOEHRER: You have been on a number of different boards, including Pfizer as well as Facebook. And in that capacity, you've seen a lot of leaders. Can you talk a little bit about the strengths and the weakness of various leaders as well as serving on the boards and the capacities of the different companies? SPEAKER 2: Yeah, well, first, let me say I know ASCO is actually a really good about being careful about conflicts of interest and things like that, and I am too. So when I became chancellor at UCSF and then CEO at the Gates Foundation, I avoided being on life sciences boards. And so I got asked a lot by Biotech and pharma boards to be on their boards. Initially, I joined Procter Gamble's board, where I served for, I think, about six years. And then I joined Facebook's board. And those were both fantastic experiences. And I actually joined the boards for two very different reasons. One, P&G's board, I wanted to learn about branding and consumers. And I felt like in medicine, I didn't really learn about consumers or branding as much as I needed to or might. And then Facebook's board I joined because as Dave mentioned, I was with Charles Sawyers. We wrote the precision medicine report for the National Academy. And I really love-- to this day, I love the concept of using the social network to connect people. There was sort of an infamous story or famous story-- it's actually a good story-- of patients with a certain form of myeloma who found each other on Facebook and went to Genentech and said, make a new medicine for those of us with this genetic abnormality. And we'll all enroll in a trial. And so these connections to me felt really powerful on precision medicine. And so getting to work with CEOs at Procter and Gamble, the CEO Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, I do see the really different attributes of leaders. But when you're a board member, you see those attributes of leaders with a very different lens. What's the return to shareholders? How does the community think about them? What's the impact-- and increasingly for Facebook, what's the impact on the world? What's the impact on our social discourse and our ability to have a free and fair election? A lot of those things became much more operative on the Facebook board while I was on the board and really tough social issues that continue to this day. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, so we could go on for another hour, hour and a half, but I have one question to ask you which may seem a little bit silly in retrospect. But if you could look back on your youthful self at 21 or 22 knowing what you know now, with all the things that you've done during the course of your career, what advice would you give yourself? And perhaps I'll addend that by saying what advice would you give particularly to young women in the medical profession who are trying to balance that work-life balance that everyone talks about and worries about and struggles with, quite frankly. SPEAKER 2: I'll give you one thing I should have done better and one thing that I think I did well. So the advice on the one thing I should have done better, I think slow down a little bit and take a bit more time for fun and enjoyment. I was extremely worried about money when I was in college, and being number two of seven-- every summer, I worked. I remember at one point in medical school, I had three weeks off, and I got a job for those three weeks at a deli making sandwiches. And I went to college for three years, crammed it into three years so I wouldn't have to pay for the fourth year. So I just think that I could have taken on more loans. I could have done some things to just dial it down a bit because you don't get those years back. And that's such a great time of your life when you're 21, 22, something like that. So I wish I'd have just slowed down a bit and not been so driven for those seven years of university and medical school that I really just either worked or studied all the time. The thing that I feel like I did well, and I would say this to anybody who's going into medicine, is there's so many opportunities. There's so many wonderful things to do. But whoever your spouse is, whoever your partner in life is, take the time and energy to make sure that's the right person for you. I feel so blessed. Actually, my husband, who I've mentioned several times in this discussion, Nick, was my roommate in San Francisco when I was an intern, like real roommate. And we've been roommates ever since. And we're very compatible. He's one of seven kids too. It's another Catholic school kid. And we just have fun together and support each other. And there's no way I could have taken these crazy jobs or done the kinds of things I've done without Nick. So having a wonderful, supportive partner makes everything better. DAVE JOHNSON: That definitely resonates with Pat and me. We're both very blessed to have wives and spouses of, for me, it's 52 years. I can't remember, Pat. Yours is close. PAT LOEHRER: I had my first date with my wife 50 years ago, yeah. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: OK, so you guys know what I'm talking about. PAT LOEHRER: Absolutely. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. PAT LOEHRER: Yeah. DAVE JOHNSON: Go ahead, Pat. PAT LOEHRER: I was going to ask a question that you probably may have already answered there, but Bob Woodward just came out of an interview with Colin Powell. One of the last questions he asked him was if he could reflect on that one person that was a moral compass for him. And so for you, that one person, alive or dead, that has been not the most powerful person you've met but the one that's really influenced you the most in terms of giving you direction, who would that be for you? SPEAKER 2: Probably, if I look at through line the entire time I've been alive, it would be my dad. He had the ability to look at a room and find the person who was struggling and go over to them. And I really loved that about my dad. PAT LOEHRER: I love it. DAVE JOHNSON: One last question. So we're at the top of the hour, and I know you're a very busy person. Pat and I love to read, but we're also documentary fiends and whatnot. We're interested. What have you read recently that really resonated with you? Do you have a recommendation for us? SPEAKER 2: I will say during the pandemic, I've gotten back into reading biographies, which I love. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: So I did the Caro, Lyndon Baines Johnson, which, Master of the Senate is really good. But my favorite book of the last two years is The Code Breaker, Walter Isaacson's book about Jennifer Doudna. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: One of the things I love about Walter Isaacson is he teaches you science through his biographies. Like, I think I understand relativity based on his Einstein biography, which is great. But The Code Breaker is really super good. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, we both read it. We couldn't agree with you more. PAT LOEHRER: Love it. Love it. DAVE JOHNSON: So Sue, again, it's been a real honor to have you as our guest, and we really appreciate the time you've taken. Thank you so much, and we hope you enjoy the beautiful weather in Alamo California, and I hope it does turn green and the rain continues for you. SPEAKER 2: Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Thank you both. DAVE JOHNSON: Take care. SPEAKER 2: Bye. DAVE JOHNSON: I want to take the moment to thank our listeners for tuning in to "Oncology Et Cetera," an ASCO educational podcast where Pat and I really will talk about anything and everything. So if you have an idea or a topic you'd like to share with us and like for us to pursue, please email us at education@asco.org. Thanks again, and keep in mind that Pat is a giant in oncology, but he's a short instructor. Thanks, everybody. SPEAKER 1: Thank you for listening to this week's-- to make us part of your weekly routine, click Subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the comprehensive e-learning center at elearning.asco.org.
UNDERCARD BATTLES: Gavin Newsom vs Kamala Harris Derek Jeter vs The Covid Vaccine Violent J Leno vs Sonic and Tails Kanye West vs Helen Keller Napoleon Bonaparte vs Abraham Lincoln MAIN EVENT: Eminem vs M&M JUDGES: Chris from Bk, Robbie Bernstein, Scott Chaplain, Calise Hawkins, Danny Polishchuk, Ryan Long OFFICIALS: Mark Henely, Niko Pav, Patrick Haggerty DJ: Derick Gonzalez HOST: Matt Maran This episode was recorded on October 31st, 2021. This show is usually recorded LIVE at The Stand Comedy Club in NYC. Not in the NYC area? You can still watch Comedy Fight Club on youtube and follow us on Instagram and Twitter @comedyfightnyc If you want access to old episodes and bonus content subscribe to our Patreon page! https://www.patreon.com/comedyfightclub Follow this week's battlers on Social Media: Gavin Newsom: @robbiegoodwin, Kamala Harris: @ohdamnthatsdori, Derek Jeter: @brittonuscardwell, The Covid Vaccine: @thisisbenmiller, Sonic and Tails: @smoopiedoopie @flukehuman, Violent J Leno: @saltydalty69420, Helen Keller: @clairebearpears, Kanye West: @iamphilhunt, Abraham Lincoln: @jakevevera, Napoleon Boneparte: @patrickhaggertycomedy, Jesus Christ: @ironicpunhere, Eminem: @bobbysheehanlol, M&M: @justfeeney, Chris from BK: @chrisfrombklyn, Robbie Bernstein: @robbiethefire, Scott Chaplain: @scott_chaplain, Calise Hawkins: @calisehawkins, Danny Polishchuk: @dannyjokes, Ryan Long: @ryanlongcomedy, Mark Henely: @markhenely, Matt Maran: @realmattmaran, Nikola Pavlovic: @ironicpunhere, Derek Gonzalez: @officiallyderickgonzalez, Ben Miller: @thisisbenmiller
Eric Rieger 0:00 Hello gut check project fans and KB MD health family, I hope that you are having a great day. It is now time for a new gut check project episode and guess what? Brain FM is in the house. That's right. Brain FM ceo dan Clark and chief scientist, Kevin Woods. Join us on the show today to talk about an incredible application of sound improving your life solving anxiety, sleep issues. Focus just an incredible tool that I can personally say I've used now for well over a year so as my family so as kids who has kids family, and so have several of our patients, they love brain FM so I don't want to spoil a single thing is an awesome, awesome episode. So let's get to our sponsors and get straight to talking to Dan and Kevin. We of course are always sponsored by atrantil. My co host Kenneth brown discovered, formulated and created atrantil to give to his patients to solve issues that are similar to IBS to give them all the polyphenols that they need for their daily lives whether they be athletes or they have gut issues or they just want to stay healthy. Go to love my tummy.com That's love my tummy.com Pick up your daily poly phenols today and of course unrefined bakery, let me just say some unrefined bakery. My wife is gluten free eater. She's got celiac disease. So I stopped by there and I picked up from unrefined bakery for my wife's birthday. I nice pumpkin pie. It was delicious. You would have no idea that was a gluten free product. It just tastes like awesome pumpkin pie. So go to unrefined bakery.com If you've never ordered from there before use code gut check and save 20% off your entire first order they deliver to any of the connected 48 and or you can you can just stop by go to unrefined bakery.com If you happen to be in the north Texas Metroplex area, and I think they have four locations. So just check them out and they got awesome stuff cupcakes, breads, various snacks that otherwise you may think I have to remain keto or I have to remain gluten free now. I can't have these awesome foods. That's just not true. Check out unrefined bakery.com today use code gut check for 20% off and last but not least go to KB MD health.com. And soon we will be featuring the signature package of course which includes atrantil CBD and of course you can also get not only CBD and atrantil there you can also pick up so if you're feigns That's right, Brock elite and broccoli pro exclusively available from physicians and guess what my co host he's a physician so we get to sell it and we bring it to a cost that you can't get anywhere else. So check out KB MD health.com Today Alright, let's get to some brain FM right now.Hello Gacek project fans and KB indie Hill family welcome to episode number 64. I'm your host Eric Rinker, joined by my awesome co host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. And honestly you got a an awesome intro to make here for everybody.Ken Brown 3:52 Yeah, so we're super excited. This is something I'm extremely passionate about because we have the CEO and the lead scientist for a product that I believe in. I love I have my patients use. I have my staff use I have all my family use, and it is called Brain FM, this if you have any trouble focusing if you have any trouble sleeping, if you have any trouble with anxiety, there is a really, really cool way to correct this. And we've got the owner and CEO, Dan Clark here, and Kevin JP woods, Ph. D. Super smart, and they're going to explain to us why well quite honestly why it's so effective on me why it's so effective on my patients. And one of the most exciting things we've been trying to do this for quite a while now pre pandemic, we realised Eric and I realised that when we tried this on a few patients at the endoscopy suite, not only did patients have a better experience, they were calm going into it. They woke up quicker and almost you vigorously every patient loved without question. And so I'm so excited because they're here in town visiting from New York because we're going to end up actually doing an official study where I think it's going to be groundbreaking. I think we're going to be able to change how people feel about outpatient procedures like colonoscopies decrease the anxiety. And it's not just anecdotal. It's because there's science behind it. There is a growing movement with this, and I am just absolutely thrilled episode 64 is probably going to be our biggest episode, ever to date.Eric Rieger 5:33 I would imagine so and I don't want to take away time from you all feeding in but just so that y'all know, this is 20 months in the making, I mean, Coronavirus, COVID hit, and derailed all of our effort to really we should, we should be 20 months further down the road of actually implementing this. And it's really for patient benefit, which is what we talk about here all the time. This will enhance the experience, I believe, for people who come through and have procedures. So, Dan, Kevin JP, what's happening?Unknown Speaker 6:02 Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for having us.Eric Rieger 6:04 Well, thanks for coming all the way down to Texas. How's Dallas, amazing, amazing. NotUnknown Speaker 6:09 my first time in Texas, everything is enormous. The streets are three times as wide as they are in New York. I tried across the street, and I just keep on walking. Keep on walking.Eric Rieger 6:19 Well, awesome. So yesterday was your first time to join us at the GI suite? And for honestly, I don't want to steal anything. But what was your impression that you thought you might see on an application of your technology? And then how do you see it fitting in kind of how Ken and I have been trying to experience it ourselves?Unknown Speaker 6:39 Yeah, sure. So first, let's maybe tell everyone what the technology is. And then we can talk about how we jumped in and started this whole process. The backstory is actually interesting. So basically, brain FM, we make functional music designed to help people focus, relax, or sleep better. And mostly, we have a consumer product, where we have 2 million people that use us to jump into focus or switch into relax, or help them sleep. And we've been having really great success there. We have papers and some things in review in nature, which we're really excited about. So it's evidence and science backed. There's some really novel ways which we use music to basically switch you into that state. And I'll let Kevin, jump into that maybe come back to that and some of the science. But what's interesting is while we're chugging ahead on that, what my girlfriend actually she starts going to get a tonsillectomy. And she's signs her life to me, we're dating for six months, I now know we're in a serious relationship. And, and I realised that I'm terrified, and I'm not even getting surgery. And she's very scared. She's never been under before. And I realised at that point that we can use the same things that we're using science to advance on our consumer angle, we can use it in relax in a medical grade setting. Remember calling up Kevin and saying, Hey, can we do anything? And he starts looking at the literature, he starts looking at other things. He goes, Yes, I actually think we can improve it a lot. I pitched that to you guys. When we met. Yeah, like I think we met probably three months later. Just a coincidence. And you'd love the idea. And that's when we became here. So it's really cool. It's been definitely long time in the making. But it was amazing. When we were doing it some some yesterday. And then one gentleman woke up. And he was so he was so he was almost emotional. He was so happy. He's like, every single time I wake up, this is like the worst or most traumatic thing that can happen. And I was using this music and I woke up. And it was it was it was fine.Unknown Speaker 8:46 And I've done this several times before without music. Yeah.Unknown Speaker 8:49 And that's the thing that we're trying to do is how do we help people relax into surgery, and then wake up, non groggy alert, and in being able to get on with their lives without, you know, making this traumatic, because a lot of people are so scared. And I know for me personally, it was really cool to see you guys doing the art form that you have, because I was able to see that it isn't scary. There's this there's this almost like divider between people that are non medical and medical have and for being able to cross over it and bring a bridge, using some of our music, I think is really what we're set up to do.Eric Rieger 9:27 So it's interesting that that, honestly, it was really awesome. I think that the first person that y'all got to see feedback from was somebody who was so engaged and immediately wanted to tell you all about it. And I only just want to just so the audience understands exactly what Dan's describing because it was awesome. So kid, I saw this multiple times before they even got here when we use brain FM as an experiment, but essentially this particular patient, he wasn't high high anxieties per se for him his singular case, but he had a history of waking up erratic very emotional, hard to console, not very comfortable in his surroundings as he was emerging. He even told you all, he feared how he was going to wake up. Yeah. How would you describe that you saw him wake up.Unknown Speaker 10:12 My goodness, he was he was happy. He looked straight in the eyes. And he thanked us on a personal level. And that meant so much. And just knowing that he had those prior experiences, and that he saw such an enormous difference, and I remember him saying, How can I recommend this to people? How can I tell people? Whoa, hold up, we're not ready for that quite yet. But yeah, he was ready to tell the world he was just so excited. And theEric Rieger 10:38 credit, the greatest thing is, it's non invasive, meaning that I don't have to inject a new drug brand doesn't have to use a new scope tip or something new, gigantic piece of equipment. I mean, this is something that we can apply. It's practical. And it's gave us real results in appreciable results. AndUnknown Speaker 10:57 it's enjoyable to absolutely. And that's the thing about music is it is familiar to people, they understand it. And yet we have this music with a scientific twist on it. Right? We have a dive into the science later. But you know, it's not exactly the music that you know, but it still is entertaining and fun to listen to. And as something that can distract you, while you're you know, lying there maybe worrying about the procedure you're about to undergo. So, you know, it's art and science coming together in a really special way. Yeah,Unknown Speaker 11:25 yeah. And I think what's cool about it is, to Kevin's point, people for 1000s of years have always used music, right to be able to control their environment, right. And, you know, there's been people that have tried with this in medical settings. But it's, it's always lacking some of the results, some of the things that are proven in science that this can make a better experience, what we're really trying to do is combine both worlds between, you know, auditory neuroscience with Kevin's background, and with a product that can be brought into these experiences that isn't, is more than a placebo. It's something that is shown to have an effect, and it makes everything better. So it's a win for the patient. It's a win for the the clinic, it's a win for everyone involved, because everything just becomes a little bit easier with something that everyone's already used to, which is music.Eric Rieger 12:20 Again, I know that whenever you've had to had conversations with patients before they come in for their very first colonoscopy, the level of fear and anxiety for somebody who simply has never even endured a procedure before it can be very real, and oftentimes occupies a lot of the time in the clinic for either you or Megan, or one of the nurses or the MA's to really kind of talk them off the ledge. So what have you seen incorporating something like brain FM so far?Ken Brown 12:46 Alright, so my personal experience, before we even get to the patients, I would say that, but what I really liked is that my day begins. Every every morning, I start my day, I switch from the evening brain FM sleep, because I go to sleep with it. So my day begins was switching it to focus. I come down, I do my French press, which I say French press because Eric gifted me this French class, he's like, dude, quit, quit using drip coffee. It's like French press is the way to go. That's why boil the water, I have my brain FM on, I'm in the focus mode, I put that in focus, because I know within five minutes that my brain is ready to really do this, I'm put the coffee on. I do the French press fire up the computer. And then I start looking at my chart. So within 15 minutes, I am literally ready to roll. Because there's a lot of stuff I have to do. I then go to work to go work out, do whatever I do in my day. And then when I come home, then my wife and kids know this. And everybody has. We all use brain FM we all use it for the exact same things. My kids use it to study, I use it to get my day going, and I use it to put myself down. So I'm such a big believer. And then when we had our first what 30 People that we did at the endo centre, yeah. It's very easy to say, hey, trust me on this. I've experimented with it. All my employees use it. I use it, my family uses it. And what, just like you said being on the other side of this medical experience, even will today Nasreen was talking to these guys. And she said, even though I've scheduled 10s of 1000s of these when it was my turn to do it, I was nervous. And we gave her brain FM to do and she said to you guys, that immediately I calmed down. And now she's had several different procedures since then, and she doesn't care at all. She's like, I know, I'm gonna get in there. I know, I'm gonna wear this, I'm going to calm down. I know I'm gonna go to sleep, and I'm going to wake up and it's going to be refreshing and I'm going to feel good. So she can now tell my patients that she's like, Don't worry about a thing. Because one of the things that really and you and I talk about this all the time and we've had several podcasts, colon cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death in the United States. Colon cancer comes from colon polyps, we have a cure. And you saw that yesterday you are with us, we have a cure. So you and I have this urgency that if you're anxious about having a done, if you're scared, if you know somebody that had colon cancer, if you know somebody that complained about their colonoscopy, anything to get you into the clinic to get those polyps removed, because it saves your life. So now, when we have this opportunity to offer something, to make it a more, a more pleasant experience, not only more pleasant, because we're going to get into the site, we keep saying we're going to get into the science because that's coming the thing, that's the coolest thing. And I'm I want to thank both envision healthcare and and search, that they're being open minded about this. I'm really excited to get all my partners in G IA, looking at this, because I really kind of feel like this is a win win win win. We spoke with Dr. Ackerman, who's been co host, multiple, multiple times, when we spoke with Dr. Ackerman. He said it he's like, yeah, he's like, you just it's it's a no brainer, it's zero risk, potentially might help. And this is somebody who hasn't used it yet. When he realises he's like, Oh, when I said potential, I should have changed that word. He's like, it'll help. And that's what we're gonna end up trying to figure out. So what I love about it is it is just a way to say, look, get it done. Any worries you have, I'm gonna take one layer of that away, the second you show up. And that's what I'm excited about. Because ultimately, it's just a way, if you're worried about it, just make the appointment. We'll handle everything else. Yeah,Unknown Speaker 16:45 I think it's it's interesting, too, because a lot of people that at least from my experience, right, the first time you're going to something like this, you focus on these negative thoughts. So you're trying to push out of your head by using music, which we're used to. And again, we'll get on the science last time we hear that, but it's something that we can focus on something else. So instead of the fears or something else, we can focus on the music that we're listening to, and know that we're in really good hands at a centre that's willing to invest in technology, and try new things. For better patient experience.Ken Brown 17:20 I would like to just comment on that right there a centre that's willing to invest in technology. You're exactly right. Because when you've been meeting with people, they're saying, you know, we would like to be the Apple version of delivering health care like this.Unknown Speaker 17:33 Yeah. I mean, well, it's interesting, because if you look at Apple, right, why, why do people want to be Apple, it's because they do things more, they're not the first to do things always. But the first to do things extremely well and extremely thought through. So they take their time. They they're not, you know, first to market sometimes, but other times they are and they when they are they're the dominant factor. And I think it comes down to really finding solutions that truly do work that truly do make a difference. And that are long term solutions rather than the not right. And when we're talking to other people that are looking to be the apple of healthcare, it does take an investment, it does take a chance, like a leap of faith into trying something new. But I think that the the return on that are exponential in patient satisfaction and repeat visitors, people that are actually showing up for appointments because they're less scared because we have a solution for that. But but more with with all the other things that we're learning on as byproducts like efficiency and helping so that's the stuff that we're really exciting, because it's still focused on patient experience first, but there's so many other things that come from patient experience being better. Let meKen Brown 18:49 get your take on this real quick. Since you guys did see this from the other side. Yeah, you saw what happens with me and my partners with the staff with the camaraderie how everyone there really is there for one ultimate goal and that's to take care of people to help in any way we can, meaning that we can fix diseases. I just want your take on the how the patients felt and where they came through. And certainly when we started using the technology, because people do need to hear it's easy for a doctor to say oh go go get this done because you should but I love that you're like this is the first time I've seen this and it's it's it's beautiful to watch how you guys as a team. Yeah, everyone.Unknown Speaker 19:32 Well, I think it really comes shines through that that's true and everyone it has a great teamwork. I went from my perspective, it looks like everyone's there because they're like we have to be a players because we're saving people's lives. And that comes in from the RNs that we saw from the people in the lobby from from how you guys are showing up and and giving great bedside manner joking around everyone's having a good time. because you guys are in a great line of work where you're, again, saving people's lives, and even just talking to some of the the nurses there in our ends, you know, they're not just trying to make the experience where they're processing people, I thought that was really great. Where it's not like, oh, let's get this person with an IV and all these other things as fast as possible. It's like, no, like, Okay, you're sensitive, you've never gotten a needle or an IV or whatever. Let me figure out how to make it. So it's less obtrusive, or less intense. And I thought that was really great. And that's when why we're so excited. We're trying to say, hey, we're gonna add this brain FM thing into it. And they're like, that's gonna make our job even easier. And that was, that was really fun to say,Eric Rieger 20:43 I love the fact that that's what you said, because what I see brain FM being, I know that it's for the patient, but truly, the person who's going to see the benefit repeatedly is going to be the nurse who's already trying to be exactly what you said, to make sure that it's not a cattle call for the GI centre, or really any surgery centre. Yep, that wants to be appealing to the patient, but at the same time, allow their staff to all be really really good at not everybody is great at talking or, or joking appropriately with a patient and make them come down at ease. But if you could have something that was somewhat of an equaliser, yes, yes, that's been proven and tested, etc. That looks to me like something like brain FM could easily fit that mould really decreasing the burden on the staff that's checking.Unknown Speaker 21:31 Absolutely. And we were talking earlier about the fellows that we saw yesterday that had this great experience coming out and said that, you know, in previous cases, that he'd come out crying and distress and you think, not only the stress on him, but the stress on the nurses that would have to, you know, deal with them in that situation and calming down, and how that loads day after day on nurses that have to deal with that. Right. And, you know, to be able to relieve some of that burden is just absolutely enormous. And by the way, and what I saw at the centre yesterday was, you know, not only the nurses clearly care about people, but also just extremely efficient, and how quick the process was people with people going through, you know, and I had never been to a GI centre like that before, did not know what to expect. We were struck out. Yeah, how fast the whole thing was, it was amazing.Unknown Speaker 22:17 Yeah, I think investing, you know, in something like this is investing and also your employees, you know, they see that we were talking to believe it was Alexis. And she's like, this is ice 1000 People wake up a week. And I'm just today I can tell you that those people are waking up faster. And that's, that's something which, when, especially now trying to hire people in the in the world that we live in right now, you want to work at a company that is leading the charge and is something that you can feel really good about working there, because not only are they taking care of you, but they're taking care of everyone else. And I think that that really shone through yesterday as well.Eric Rieger 22:56 I think we're really lucky honestly can have G IA in this position to help us do this. Because it seems to me like this this lot. And we've talked about this on the show before but this company wants to be a an innovator, not just some big Gi Group. They want to help establish what should be some some good norms instead of some of the the throwaway old norms they want to be the ones that emerge southern think this is this is only going to pay a compliment to that.Ken Brown 23:23 Yeah. And I want to point something out when you're talking about the efficiency and all that, you know, let's what you did see is the efficiency in the preoperative and post operative, but you saw in the room that it was consistent, it was Eric and I focused. My technician, Mackenzie, we you guys saw that. It's just it's right there. It's the same process. And so by not worrying about the patient's concerns, or the concerns are alleviated when they come in, and I know that they're going to wake up in competent hands, I get to focus 100% on taking care of what I'm looking at with the endoscope. Eric gets to focus 100% on making sure that that patient is sedated and I work as a team and you saw how that is that the the flow of the room. And that's what's beautiful about the centre there. We're at that, although it's the efficiency sometimes people think oh, well, that that feels like you're moving too fast. No, the spot where we slow down is in that route.Unknown Speaker 24:22 Right? Yep. Yeah, we definitely saw that. Yeah, by efficiency. I just meant as a as somebody coming into the centre for procedure, I would be out of there in less than an hour, which was amazing to me. I always thought that outpatient procedures and you know, my take all afternoon I'd be sitting around all day, did not see any of that. It was really amazing.Eric Rieger 24:41 Yeah, it is a whole nother dynamic. Beyond that and why this is a good setup. But I do think it's a great setup because we huge exposure for something like brain FM so we can really prove this concept. So let's get into it. What in the world is brain FM? How does it work? He's rubbing his hands together.Unknown Speaker 25:00 Here we go, here we go. All right,Ken Brown 25:02 before you even get into this, let's at least can I, I love being around I love being the stupidest person in the room. And yesterday, I'm by far, I just felt like I'm just like playing catch up with Kevin all day long. It's just that you are wicked smart, and certainly have the credentials to prove it. And the way your passion towards this you the whole story. So before we even get into the science, oh, I was out last time.Eric Rieger 25:35 I was trying to follow the flow here.Ken Brown 25:38 How in the world? Did you become a PhD in this? Like, what is the path?Unknown Speaker 25:43 Sure, sure. Well, let's see. I was first interested, I think in the study of consciousness, I want to understand subjective experience. Why it is the case that we should experience anything at all rather than nothing? Why isn't it the case that humans are simply zombies with nothing on the inside, but you know, objects in the world, that kind of thing? Well, it turns out, it's hard to make a living as a consciousness research researcher. But it is possible to make a living as an attention researcher. And of course, attention and consciousness are very closely linked, at least in the sense that you tend to be conscious of what you're paying attention to. So I went into attention research in neuroscience. And within attention, I went into Auditory Research. Being a lifelong musician, just interested in sound in general, there's something magical about sound, right? It's ephemeral, you don't see it, it's in the air. And yet, it's so important to our daily lives, as you're experiencing right now. And so there's this magic about it. And I want wanted to understand, you know, the principles of how do you attend to sound in the world, right. And often, we're in these situations where we're trying to listen to the person talking to us in front of us, but there are other people talking around us, right? Or maybe we're on a busy street corner. Or say we're listening to a piece of music and just trying to hear the guitar part, but ignore the drums. And so there's this notion of a spotlight of attention in listening to things, right. And with the eyes, it's simple to understand how that happens, because you can move your eyeballs around, and you can point your eyes and things right? Well, we don't point our ears at things. We do that with our brain, right? And so if I'm sitting at the dinner table, and I want to listen to the person next to me, instead of the person in front of me, I don't have to turn my head to do that. I do something in my brain, right, that changes the spotlight of my attention so that I'm eavesdropping, right? And what is that process? How does that work? So I became very interested in that. I studied it in undergrad and then then went on to grad school, and did my dissertation on something called The Cocktail Party Problem, which is exactly the problem I've just described. And again, you know that the eyes being a two dimensional sheet, objects already arrived on the retina separated, right, but the eardrum is not a two dimensional sheet that your drum is a one dimensional receiver where you just get pressure over time, sounds mix in the air before they arrive at the ear. And it's the brains problem to unmix those sounds right? This is absolutely fascinating computational problem. So I study that for seven years. And in the process of doing that, I developed some methods to do online auditory experiments, which hadn't been done before. And long story short, you know, the, the old guard in auditory computational neuroscience would have said, Oh, I have have to bring people into my sound attenuated chamber, I have to make you wear my calibrated headphones. And therefore I can only run two subjects a day. Well, it turns out that if you do things online and use the right methods, you can collect 100 participants that day. And the date ends up being roughly the same, you know, with a few more participants, you can even out the noise that's otherwise introduced, but slightly messy online methods. It turns out, it's a massively more efficient way to run experiments. And one day, by chance in the supermarket, I ran into an old colleague of mine, so excited about these methods, I went on and on and on. And she had just hooked up with brain FM. And in that she was a consultant for them. Wow, bright brain FM, this, you know, wonderful company, they're doing functional music. And they really need somebody to, as you know, as a team of one to run lots of lots of experiments, behavioural experiments to figure out, you know, what is the ideal background music for doing, you know, XYZ. And I jumped on that immediately. I started consulting for brain FM, even before I defend what yours is,Eric Rieger 29:27 do you think, Oh, thisUnknown Speaker 29:28 would have been 20? Nothing? No, no, no, no. 1819 2018 Oh, yeah. Yeah, bless. Yeah. Say I defended in 2018. Yep. And so six months before that, I was I was consulting with Brian FM and, and I remember the day that I defended my dissertation, I signed the employment contract with Brian. Nice, very, very happy day.Unknown Speaker 29:49 snagging right out.Ken Brown 29:51 any room at all? And theUnknown Speaker 29:53 rest? Yeah, the rest is history. And it was gone to do some really incredible things. We got a grant from the National Science Foundation to look into music for ADHD. Out of that has come a this beautiful piece of work that has behavioural experiments has fMRI brain scanning and has EEG, and another method of looking at brain physiology. And we combined all of these methods to essentially show how our focus music works. Yeah, the results are really great. The papers currently in peer review at nature. We're really excited to see how that goes. Yeah, so that's currently currently where we're at with brain FM. Super excited to explain how it actually works. But maybe, since Yeah.Eric Rieger 30:41 We have to round out and ask Dan. Dan, you mentioned maybe on this podcast, my memory is already fuzzy, but you didn't found brain FM but you hopped on it. The moment that you saw there was an opening so why don't you to go over how you got here?Unknown Speaker 30:56 Yeah, so I have a very interesting story that's different than Kevin so I, I started making websites when I was 13. I loved it. I thought it was like a nother kind of video game that you could play. And I am a sucker blackbelt. So I made martial arts websites made the first one for my school, and they went from getting 30 leads to 130 leadsKen Brown 31:19 sorry, somebody that's done martial arts his whole life. What second degree and what? Mixed martialUnknown Speaker 31:23 arts so it concentrated in jujitsu? Krav Maga, Muay Thai and Cuba.Eric Rieger 31:28 Sweet. Yeah, Lucinda Drew.Unknown Speaker 31:32 So yeah, so I did that for a while. And I went to make martial arts websites because I made it for one person. He's like, can you make it for all my friends. And before I was out of high school, I had 20 clients were dropped out of high school, ended up having, you know, 40 clients at one time. And so my first business when I was 20, travel the world and came back and I said, I wonder if I can do this again. Maybe I got lucky. And I started working with businesses and bringing them online and building lead generation businesses and started doing more and more complicated things like POS systems, I started doing digital advertising became digital director of a company at a like 24 years old. And from the outside, I made it you know, I was making more money than my parents, you know, like travelling around the United States selling million dollar contracts. But I didn't I hit this point where I didn't feel like I was as really like helping people like I did when I was teaching martial arts. Because we used to use martial arts as a vehicle to take a kid from being not really confident or sure of himself into a leader into being someone and I'm I'm an effective that I was really shy, I got bullied on mercilessly in fifth grade. I was a little chubby and, and martial art transformed me. So even though I made success, you know, financially, I didn't really find success success personally. And, you know, I had this life or death situation, which is a whole nother podcast to talk through. And I realised I need to quit my job, quit my job, I came across brain FM, like three months later, when I was looking for what I should do, I knew I wanted to work in tech, again, to help people. I remember using it the first time and being blown away. Because I used to work from 10pm to 4am, because that's where I could find my flow state, right. Like, I could find that magic zone where I could just jump into things. And I remember taking my headphones off the first time and being like, this is too good to be true. This is no way this is working. I was super speculative. And I was I was this is just music, right. And I remember trying I save 24 hours and then used it still worked. My diet still worked. And it was it was perfect. Because it was something that allowed me to switch into focus whenever I wanted to. And from then I was like this is going to be something that changed the world. I called the people that created the company like 12 times, I actually started working for free and absurdly the tech team becoming CEO and then purchasing the company. So wild ride, never never intended to do that. But along the way, you know, obviously Kevin, Kevin and I are together as well as a lot of other great team members. We're really trying to use brain FM as a tool to help people be their best self, their best best version of themselves. And while we are doing that consumer you know now we get to do it in the medical space and help people have best health that they can have. And that's something that's we're really excited about isEric Rieger 34:40 awesome stories it y'all linked by passion, which I find really endearing for the process.Ken Brown 34:46 So we're doing so at at atrantil and certainly with the practice and everything we really like to discuss what is the what is our collective why what is my why? What is the the companies Why if we're all on the same way, what I'm just hearing, I'm just writing little notes here. I'm like, wow, both you guys driven by the Why have you have this knowledge, Kevin, that you are like, wow, this could really, it's so I come from this music background and I understand this and I can do this. And Dan, you have this incredible like, this is where I came from I, I need to I'm it's not a money thing. It's a The why is how do we get everyone else on the same page. And we hooked up because we're in that car that one day, we were being shuttled to the to the meeting we're going to and the why was wow, that sounds like that could really help my patients and you're like, the more I think about I think I can and I like when the y's align. And you can move that forward and get more people doing it. The beauty of brain FM is that you can teach people that they are capable of their Why suddenly they can unleash that. So when I meet with so many people that have irritable bowel syndrome, and which is associated or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, SIBO, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis where they're kind of consumed by negative thoughts and anxiety. And there's that brain gut access, that Kevin's nodding, because he's like, that's definitely the cool part. So I want to affect the brain by protecting the gut. Kevin knows so much about the brain that we realised we're kind of meeting there were so I think that this collective why if we could expand this circle of why into okay, we now know that am Serge and envision is getting the why they're like, yes, we can do this. And now we can get the why going with the doctors going, we all can have this collective why, which is one thing, how do we get more people to have a better experience in healthcare and ultimately, collectively improve the health of everyone? You guys are doing it to the brain? I'm trying to do it through the budget.Unknown Speaker 36:58 So yeah, well, that's.Ken Brown 37:03 So I love hearing that story. I didn't know that. I mean, we've talked to me for hours and hours. I did not know that's a really, really cool story.Eric Rieger 37:10 Just a brief primer on, on how we all linked up there, because you just barely hinted at it is we you and I had met in snow skiing together, you have snowboarding on snow skiing, had a great time. And then we decided to ride together for the summer meeting. Yep, to the same group and share a shuttle. No pretence at all, we just got hopped into conversation about how are things going. And it probably took about 10 miles or a 70 mile ride. Before we determine, wait a second, there's something there is something here. Yeah. And so anyway, that's that's just my short version on how I showed up here today.Ken Brown 37:49 I love it a lot.Unknown Speaker 37:50 So I guess without further ado, should we talk about what's here and talk about some of the science?Unknown Speaker 37:54 Yeah. Finally, all right,Ken Brown 37:57 now we're gonna get into some cool stuff. All right, this is if you are, if you're listening to this, get a pen and a piece paper out because this is cool, cool, cool stuff. This is not just listening to music, I love that.Unknown Speaker 38:09 And so the trick with this is always to make it you know, straightforward and understandable. And hopefully, you won't need pen and paper to understand what's going on here. So simply put, a lot of neural activity activity is rhythmic, right? These rhythms, slow, fast, everything in between. And the rhythms in the brain support, perception, cognition, and action, essentially, those three things that the brain does. One that you may have heard of, are delta waves when you're sleeping, that's probably you know, the most common widely known one. But their rhythms are all sorts of different speeds that support pretty much you know, anything that you're doing in your daily life. And the idea behind brain FM, is, it's music that's specifically engineered to drive these rhythms in the brain called neural oscillations, or if you'd like brainwaves to drive your brainwaves in targeted ways, right? To support whatever you need to be doing, right. And so for example, we know what brainwaves in the focus brain look like? They're at particular speeds in particular regions. And so what we do is we say, okay, let's use the odd, let's use the auditory system as input for neuromodulation. Right? And so how can we use an auditory input to drive your brainwaves into the state that we know supports focus, right? And so we figured out that out and that's what we have our paper that's coming out shortly on, but because the principle is using the auditory system as a neuromodulator it's not just a one trick pony, right? So we can support focus, we can support relaxation, we can support sleep, and now we're discovering that we can, you know, support people going under and waking up from anaesthesia as well. So it's really it's a delivery method for you know, driving your brain into whatever state you need for, for what you need to be doing. Right. And so again, this is, you know, it's what we call functional music, which we'd like to make the distinction between that and, you know, what you might call art music with a capital A. Right? Which is that, you know, in modern times with artists and albums, there's a conception of music as something that primarily exists for self expression and for beauty and to connect to your audience. Well, things haven't always been that way, right. And if you go back 500 years, 1000 years, it's not about artists and albums. It's about music that is designed to do things for people, for example, you know, a lullaby a lullaby is a perfect example of ancient functional music. Because the point of a lullaby is not to sound beautiful. Maybe you also want that, but the point of a lullaby is to put a baby to sleep. Right? And similarly, you know, you have music that was used to help people do physical labour, right? Or music to march to if you're in an army, right? And the point of marching music is not to sound beautiful is to make people walk in lockstep, right. Another good example is dance music, right? And dance is a perfect example of this principle of rhythms in the brain and rhythms in the world. Which by the way, is called entrainment. That's a concept that you may be familiar with, which is, rhythms in the brain reflect rhythms in the world?Ken Brown 41:22 Yeah, what threw me off a little bit. Sorry.Eric Rieger 41:24 Just to catch up on everyone on on the vocabulary. I want to hear your just brief explanation of neuromodulation Sure, I've entrainment is another might have been one more, but just just to keep everybody on the same? Sure.Unknown Speaker 41:35 Sure. Sure. So neuromodulation is just a broader term that refers to, you know, inducing a change in the brain through an external stimulus, right. It could be a magnetic field, it could be electrical currents. But it could also be sensory stimulation, right? In this case, auditory system. And treatment is a form of neuromodulation, where you're providing a rhythmic input to induce a rhythmic response from the brain, right. And so you have this oscillating system, neural circuits of the resonance frequencies. And so you're basically pushing on this neural circuit in a rhythmic way and a response in a rhythmic, rhythmic way. And because the brain has this property of training to things around it, then you can drive the rhythms in the brain to help support what you need to do. Okay, which is, yeah, we're where I started. Yeah, it's pretty straightforward and simple example of that coming back around as dance, right? That's one that everybody understands. You hear the rhythm and the music and your body moves to that. And that's entrainment and what's called the auditory motor system, right? And also, by the way, if you want to know, how quickly does it take for brain FM to kick in, which is a question that we always get asked, I asked back, Well, how long does it take between when you hear dance music? And when you want to dance? Yeah, right? The answer is, it depends on how closely you're attending to the music, right? It depends on how intense the beats are. And all that's true for brain FM as well. But you know, the real answers, maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute, if you're not really listening, if you're in the right mood, maybe 10 seconds, right. But that's the sort of timescale and ballpark timescale when you're talking about rhythmic entrainment in the auditory system. And interesting thing about dance music, right, is that the functional properties of dance music are completely dissociated from the aesthetic properties of dance music, right? Yes, you can listen to music that sounds terrible, and still makes you want to dance. And that's a perfect demonstration of functional versus art in music, right? And so what we've done in brain FM is we've said, okay, you know, we know entrainment is the thing, but instead of, you know, relatively slow rates that you will bounce to, you know, you can actually drive the brand very fast rates that support focus, or very slow rates that support sleep. And that's anything in between, and everything in between. And that's the principle.Unknown Speaker 43:47 What's really cool about it as well is in addition to all the things that Kevin is saying, we're also able to do it through sound, where it's something that is not obtrusive, or it stops you from what you're doing. So for example, in focusing, it's it's not something that you have to watch, or like meditation, you meditate, and then you focus this is as long as you are doing the activity. So what's nice about it is usually our work is visual, to why adding music to it, it's allowing us to focus better and work like we normally would. And the same thing in hospitals, right? And in the clinic that we were just at is this is music that you put on top. And it doesn't take away from the experience. People can still you know, hear what you're saying instructions, it's not something that they're putting over their eyes. One interesting thing about music compared or sound compared to light is what like one out of 18,000 people are epileptic,Unknown Speaker 44:47 right, the light can occasionally induce epilepsy, but music will not. Yeah, sound induced epilepsy is not only extremely rare, but it's also not due to rhythms. It's triggered by you know, things that have to do with your past. So the sound of a car crash or something might trigger trigger epilepsy for sound. Whereas with light, it's a very automatic thing where once you hurt once you hit a certain frequency of light flashing, you know, if you have that kind of photosensitive photosensitive epilepsy, it'll set you off. Not so with music, so it's extremely safe. Yeah, so,Unknown Speaker 45:19 so sound is really this perfect medium to apply to things that we're already doing, whether it's relaxing, sleeping, or going through surgery, but it's also something that's incredibly safe. Because we have all of these things that we've evolved to have that protect us from sound, the worst thing that can happen is maybe it's too loud. That that's, you know, very, that's, that's actually not even probably going to happen because of the way commercial headphones are made. You know, it's a very safe thing to add to your regimen.Eric Rieger 45:51 So what do y'all call this particular technology? And then how did you arrive at this technology? Because I know it's not the first iteration of utilising sound, you've even said, you know, it's been years ago from the lullaby to now. So what's this call that we're bringing in uses? Sure.Unknown Speaker 46:06 Well, I think we like to call it brain FM. It's it Yeah, it is. It is unique. We have, you know, patents on the process that we use to make this music because it is so unique, you know. Let's see. There are other methods of training the brain for example, you could flashlights that people like we were just saying, but you can't get your work done. If you're having lights flashed at you. Right? There's there's a conflict there. So Sam is really a great way to do it. Yeah, I don't think we have a really good name for the technologyKen Brown 46:40 there. Let me ask you a quick question. So I'm somebody that I own a different centre someplace else, like, oh, yeah, I heard this podcast you know what we're gonna do? I love Coldplay, so I'm gonna make everybody listen to Coldplay as they get in there. Because Coldplay does it for me. Explain the difference?Unknown Speaker 46:55 Yeah. So before we do that, I think so obviously, brain FM as a company, you know, we do have patents like, like Kevin saying, I would just say that every time we the reason why we call it brain FM is because every time we learn more, we actually grow and build and change brain FM. So it's an ever evolving thing, where brain FM was five years ago, and where it is now. And our understanding of the brain and even the music we produce different. As far as this of what we're making for health care. This is really brain health, that we're really focusing on as a pursuit, and it is different than our consumer product. And Kevin can share some of the things that we arrive to it. And it actually it's funny, because Coldplay was one of the control groups that we did that dimension. So when you when we first started talking about, hey, I think this is something that we could do. I think I share that story of my girlfriend. We were saying, I remember telling Kevin, I was like, Hey, can we make relax? We just play a relaxed music. And he's like, Yeah, we could but let me check to check. And he started finding all this free search, which I'll just like Kevin say, but it was just incredibly exciting. Because from that start, we were able to eventually build a product that blew the wall to off everything that existed so far, we can see that with science.Eric Rieger 48:14 So that's that's kind of where I was going. So I when you and I very first got engaged with this topic and what brain FM was. I think one of the first questions that can ask is how does this compare to some someone utilising binaural? Beats? Yeah, and then that that's really kind of what I was getting at is that that is more or less in, correct me if I'm wrong, but static in where it is. And just as you described, y'all have been evolving and finding new applications for brain FM proprietary applications. Whereas by neuro is a great discovery. However, y'all are evolutionsUnknown Speaker 48:55 on Yeah, I'll start and then I'll give it to Kevin. So you know, this, like we were saying before, it has been tried to be done forever. Sure, functional music lullabies those existed for 1000s of years. And then a lot of people are familiar with music that they they play to elicit a response. So when you go to spas, you hear the waterfalls and the relaxing, you know that because you're trying to have a relaxing experience. What we've done is we've taken that to another level. Now, to your point, binaural beats isochronic tones, those have existed for a long time. And that's when for anyone that hasn't heard about this is when you play one frequency in one year and one frequency in the other. And they basically combined in your brainstem, right? And that creates entrainment in your brain. But it's not as precise as what we're looking for. It still has effects but they're diminishing or they're not. They're not as rigorous as we'd like to know that this is 100% effective. So when we were creating brain FM, it was well this is something that's there but how How could we make it more effective? And Kevin, I'll share in a second, but the difference between is instead of modulating frequencies, we actually modulate amplitude. Mm hmm. Kevin, you want to explain that?Unknown Speaker 50:12 Sure. Yeah. So I can talk about by now binaural beats specifically. And Dan is absolutely right, you have two different frequencies coming in the two different ears. The difference between those frequencies creates beating in the brainstem, essentially, that if you were to take two sine waves of slightly different frequencies, sum them together, what you would end up with is amplitude modulation, basically interference between two very similar assignments. So for example, I've 400 hertz and one year 410 Hertz in the other ear, in the brainstem, I'm creating a 10 hertz amplitude modulation, okay, right dude with some of those things. Now, the issue? Well, there's several issues. One is that the brainstem was limited and how strongly it can pass those modulations up to the cortex, right, the cortex has a high level of the brain where all the interesting stuff happens. So even if you have, you know, it doesn't matter how loud those frequencies are in your two years, the the level of modulation created in the brainstem will cap out at a certain amount. But if you put that modulation directly in in each ear, instead of relying on the brainstem to produce it, you can get a much stronger response from cortex, right. So in terms of the strength of entrainment, and binaural beats is also about entrainment right? It's about producing this modulation, that then in trance cortex, the strength of that entrainment is much less than binaural beats because it is produced, because modulations produced by the brain instead of existing in the sound signal, right? A practical issue is that with binaural beats, you're limited to listening to tones. So when you listen to binaural beats, what you're hearing is, and one year and and the other year, I love that song. Exactly. No one loves that. Right? And so what we've done in brain FM is we found a way to insert modulation into music, right? So that it's enjoyable, and you get those effects as well. Right?Unknown Speaker 52:04 Yeah. And we can we can send over a demo if you want to stitch it to the end of this podcast so people can see here. Well,Eric Rieger 52:11 that's honestly one of the coolest parts is is the fact that y'all can y'all can put the effective portion of brain FM inside the genre that anybody wishes to listen to. That's right. It's one of the coolest things because I was even asking you when you were first describing Oh, is it? Is it country to go to sleep? And is it hard rock to wake up? And he said, actually, it's whatever you want, for anything that you want. And I thought that was the coolest explanation, because you're not limited to some type of genre, just simply because that's how you need to feel.Unknown Speaker 52:42 Absolutely. And to be clear, you know, most music is rhythmic, and therefore most music has amplitude modulation in it. But it's not targeted in the way that brain FM is, right. It's it's a byproduct of the artists doing their thing. So if you're listening to Coldplay, right, they have a mix of whole notes and half notes and whatever, you know, musical things are going on and do that they have amplitude modulation at all sorts of different frequencies happening, right? If they're at, you know, 120 BPM and they're playing whole notes, then they have, you know, one hertz or whatever it is maybe two hertz. But with brain FM, what we're saying is, okay, we know the frequency that we want the brain to hit. So we're going to directly insert amplitude modulations, at exactly 16 hertz, or, you know, whatever it happens to be, and make those the dominant modulation frequency in the brain. Whereas with music, you have all these overlapping frequencies. And you know, the, the target is to make it sound beautiful not to drive the brain into a certain solitary state. Right. And so, by the way, with Coldplay, we did this very large online study, we had 200 participants in this, we gave them a standard questionnaire called the profile of mental states looking at, among other things, tension and relaxation. And we had Coldplay as a control. We had brain FM, we also had another piece of music very fascinating. That was made by music therapists and was hailed as the most relaxing song in the world, it was used in multiple studies, it was shown to reduce blood pressure to similar extent as benzodiazepines to for people undergoing surgery. And we found that we beat that would be called Les by a mile. And we beat that song as well. You know, error bars were small relative to the difference between them highly, statistically significant. So that was very cool to see.Ken Brown 54:21 So the last part again, one more time, because it's based on science. And what I said Coldplay, kind of jokingly because I like Coldplay, and that didn't realise that they actually studied that. And so this was compared to a scientifically or supposedly scientifically derived music considered the most relaxing music in the world and I guess you paid yourself you like you went you just went immediately to the deepest water you could findUnknown Speaker 54:46 that's exactly right. We we did the hardest tests, we always try to give ourselves the hardest test. By the way, it's a track called weightless by Marconi union is extremely Google will you'll find it was CNR CNN article written about it, and we said okay, if this is the king of the hill, We're going to beat it. And we did. Wow.Unknown Speaker 55:03 Yeah. And we do that from some of the things that Kevin was talking about earlier, which were there's online experiments. So think about it, you know, we can actually test 1000s of people, and we know all the knobs to play. So not only are we doing these neural phase locking these amplitude modulation, we actually do other things in music, like 3d sound. So when you're in some of our relaxing music, we actually shift some of the sound from right here to left here, almost like you're in a hammock, sometimes, we have different BPM rates, different kinds of genres specific to make you feel more relaxed. And as we learn more about you, and what you prefer, we can actually have even a better response. And, you know, getting back on track on some of the stuff that we're doing with you guys, and hopefully more people in the future. We started looking at this from a science based procedure and saying, Okay, this is what the world says is the most relaxing music in the world. Let's beat it. And I believe it would be like, like 50 50% or 5%. It's a pretty pretty demonstrable, especially compared to,Ken Brown 56:08 just to clarify that was like, first iteration, you guys continually improve what you're goingUnknown Speaker 56:13 Oh, yep, yep. And now it just comes down to so we have improved sense and now it's comes down to doing clinical trials with real people to say okay, we've improved as much as we can outside the environment. Now let's make it better in the environment and continually testEric Rieger 56:29 one or something else that that you mentioned, Kevin, that I feel like is, is maybe even just glossed over as we're talking about comparing it to Coldplay or or waitlist, is you said benzodiazepines also. So now you're talking about comparing sound to a drug and a bit of die as a pain, of course, is what we use, if you're curious, that's verse said, that's out of and that's value. These are things that people religiously take for, as an analytic try to stop that. So the fact that you didn't just go to the deepest water and sound, you went straight to the heart of what we use and anaesthesia, chemically to allow people to alleviate their anxiety, and that's quite measurable.Ken Brown 57:11 Alright, so let's bring that up because you said religiously tape. But the reality is, is that benzodiazepines have an extremely addictive potential as well. Correct. So people that suffer from anxiety and using those medications to try and get through that there are tremendous rich,Eric Rieger 57:27 so in before we hit on that just just the array of benzo and benzo like drugs. I mean, it doesn't just stop with those three, you're talking also about Xanax, Ambien, senesce, those, all of those fit at some level to be maximum GABA agonist. So when you say that what you have by comparison is something that's effective. We don't know this today. But potentially y'all could be unlocking a way for people not to be dependent upon taking these drugs to to get better sleep to alleviate their anxiety, etc. Yeah,Unknown Speaker 58:02 I mean, this is definitely a road that we see could be possible. Obviously, there's a lot of work to be involved involved right now. But we do have testimonials of users that, like reach out and they say, Hey, I haven't slept well in 10 years. And I tried brain FM a lot last night, and I've been on Ambien, I've been on Lunesta, and I slept better than any drug I've ever taken. Right. And now we're I'm not here saying that this is a cure or treatment. Yeah. But this could be an alternative approach where maybe you can take less trucks, or you can do this before you try drugs, or, you know, whatever. And, you know, I think that gives someone more control and freedom.Ken Brown 58:41 As someone who tries to incorporate different lifestyle modulations to improve my life to try and incorporate these different things with my patients. When we talk about let's talk about benzodiazepine addiction, we can get into the fact that benzos works similar to alcohol. So I work with a lot of patients with liver disease, and we try and get over that. Well, the beauty that I really like about this is that just like you said, when you meditate to try and focus, you are meditating, and then you're going to try and have focus. What I love is I'll actually stack this kind of stuff. I will and Eric's a big sauna fan also. And so I will put my brain FM on I will go into the sauna, and I will do breathing exercises all at once. And I love is absolutely you know, it's I'm, I feel like I'm focusing on my breath. I know that I'm getting that neuromodulation that's going to happen anyways and start stimulating that area to try and do that. And I'm getting the benefits of the sauna that's there. And so just we're not saying that one thing does something or other but when we start on my lifestyle modifications, this is like one of the easiest as the other stuff you need a sauna like when I tell my patients I'm like you know sauna therapy is good. I don't have access to it. Okay, do you let's do some breathing and some meditation. I can't I'm super busy and whatever. Okay, how about just putting some headphones on? Yeah. How about that? Let's start with that and see what happens.Unknown Speaker 1:00:11 And it's something that, you know, one of the reasons why I was so attracted to the company in the beginning was, it isn't just for, you know, people that it is for everyone. It doesn't actually matter if you speak English or not, none of our none of our music is created with lyrics. And one thing I think we glossed over is actually we have in house composers that are makeup, that's gonna be my next question. Yeah. So we have people that have toured with some of the greatest bands ever, which, you know, I don't know if we can disclose, but some really great talented musicians. And they're, they're taking this in making this from a functional approach, where it's music that sounds great, it's music that has all the scientific effects, and all the knobs turned the right way to have the effect we're trying to, you know, get for the user. But it's also not necessarily music, that is going to be your favourite song. Because that's not the goal, right? The goal is to make an effect that can be measured in your brain, and is not just sometimes it's every time, whether you're trying to relax, you're trying to sleep, you're trying to focus,Unknown Speaker 1:01:13 and it's music that will sit comfortably in the background. So for example, with our focus music in particular, you know, a lot of people don't realise that. If I'm a music producer, normally, my job is to grab your attention. My job is to make music punchy, and make you sit up and distract you from whatever you're trying to do. Right. And so we've we've flipped the script on that, and we say, Okay, well, we know the tricks they're using to make music punchy and grabbing your attention. Let's do the opposite. You know, what can we do to make music still sound good and be entertaining, but help you work by not distracting you? Right? And because we have a different target than everybody else who ended up making different music than everybody else.Eric Rieger 1:01:50 So figuring this out, you some people say they're an audio file, I would say that You are the supreme audio file doctor. Yeah, no, no. But not not only that, you also play guitar. And we talked about this briefly yesterday. So when you have when when y'all team up with your composers to come in house to build stuff? Just just how does it happen? How do y'all know what sounds good for it to match together? And you're like that that'll work here? I mean,Unknown Speaker 1:02:19 absolutely well about it. They're much better musicians than I am. For starters, my job is to annoy the heck out of our musicians by saying, that's a bit too good. That's, uh, you know, that that melody that you made, it's too catchy, you know, oh, that that percussive part as normal music, it would be totally awesome. Yeah, right now, you know, we're not trying to grab people's attention. And so just sort of to remind them of the science and the target and that kind of thing. But,Eric Rieger 1:02:47 so what was the session? Like for them? Are they there for like, four hours, and they're cutting one track? Or?Unknown Speaker 1:02:52 Oh, they make enormous quantities of music. They're so good at it. In terms of a session, so they work in Ableton, you know, okay, yeah. So they have DAWs we have proprietary software that plugs into Ableton that helps us layer the science on top of music, essentially, that's what what's happening. And the principles of composition they use from the ground up, are meant meant to support whatever mental state right? So, you
In this episode, Associate Professor at the University of the Sciences and Director of BTE Laboratory, David Logerstedt, talks about monitoring and responding to load injuries on the knee. Today, David talks about the most common loading injuries on the knee, difference between external and internal loads, and how to improve tissue capacity. What is mechanical loading? Hear about David's most recent research paper on mechanical loading and the knee, how therapists can monitor and respond to loads, how clinicians can apply the information in the paper, and get David's advice to his younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast. Key Takeaways “A lot of the stresses that cause the injury also are some of the same stresses that you can use to rehabilitate the injury.” “Most of us have enough tissue capacity to walk, but we might not have the tissue capacity to run a 10k.” “You really are trained to look at how the joint is reacting to the loads that you're placing on it. Measuring irritability is probably the best way to describe it.” “Even just asking how they feel can give a lot of information.” “If people understand the ‘why', then maybe they're more likely to do it and follow through.” “Don't say no. Always say yes to opportunities. Especially in that early career, if an opportunity comes along, take it.” More about David Logerstedt David Logerstedt, PT, MPT, PhD is tenured Associate Professor at University of the Sciences and Director of BTE laboratory. He graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in health and human performance from the University of Montana and a Master of Arts degree in exercise physiology from the University of North Carolina. He earned a master's degree in physical therapy from East Carolina University and a doctorate in the interdisciplinary program of biomechanics and movement science from the University of Delaware. Dr. Logerstedt has been a practicing rehabilitation specialist for over 25 years and is board certified in sports physical therapy. He has presented his research on knee disorders at national and international conferences and has published in high-impact sports medicine journals on ACL injuries. He has co-authored several clinical practice guidelines on knee disorders. His goal to improve the implementation of clinical research into practical and accessible for all clinicians. Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Knee Injuries, Loading Injuries, Tissue Capacity, Stress, Research, Rehabilitation, Recovery, Physiotherapy Resources: Effects of and Response to Mechanical Loading on the Knee To learn more, follow David at: Website: David Logerstedt's Bibliography Twitter: @DaveLogPT LinkedIn: David Logerstedt Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927 Read the Full Transcript Here: 00:07 Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. 00:35 Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And today's episode is brought to you by Net Health so when it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and increasing referrals, net Health's Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found get chosen, and definitely get those five star reviews on Google. They have a fun new offer if you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic when they will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about his new integration, head over to net health.com forward slash li tz why to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit. And it's great, I use it and it works. So I highly recommend it. Now onto today's episode. So I'm really really happy to have Dr. David lager stead on the episode today. And we are talking about monitoring and responding to load injuries on the knee. So Dr. Lager stat is a tenured associate professor at the University of sciences and director of the BT EE Laboratory. He graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in Health and Human Performance from the University of Montana and a Master of Arts degree in exercise physiology. from the University of North Carolina. He earned a master's degree in physical therapy from East Carolina University and a doctorate in the interdisciplinary program of biomechanics and Movement Science from the University of Delaware. He has been a practicing rehabilitation specialist for over 25 years he is board certified in Sports Physical Therapy. He has presented his research on knee disorders at national international conferences and has published in high impact sports medicine journals on ACL injuries. He co authored several clinical practice guidelines on knee disorders. His goal is to improve the implementation of clinical research into practical and accessible, make it practical and accessible for all clinicians. So yeah, so today we're talking about a new paper, that he co authored the effects, the effects of em response to mechanical loading of the knee to great paper, you can go to podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart calm, to find a link to the paper. And a big thanks to Dr. Lager stead for breaking it down for us and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Hey, David, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. 03:04 Thank you for having me. Yeah, and I'm excited. Today we're going to talk about a new paper that your co author on that came out on to be very precise, October 20, of 2021. And it's the effects of response to mechanical loading on the knee. So of course, my first question, I'm sure this is the first question everyone asked you is, why write this paper? What is the why behind it? You know, as a, as a clinician, as well, as somebody who is now in academia, I've always kind of had this question myself, you know, what kind of loads are on the knee? And I've always had this, you know, concern about dosing and trying to figure out like, how can we can best dose exercise around the knee. And as I, as I really started to think about this more, really started to find that there hasn't been any review, or any kind of clinical commentary kind of brings at least the concept of mechanical loading, kind of in one place. And the knee is always a good model, because it does seem to have a lot of a lot of research around it. And it's an area I'm familiar with, because of my work in ACLs. And so I, we, you know, we just started, started thinking about, okay, how can we best talk about what kind of loads are being placed on the knee and, and some of it kind of kind of came out of some conversations I had with another colleague of mine, where we've really started to talk about the use of inertial measurement units and how those can start to give at least some general indications of what loads are occurring through the lower extremity. And so we decided to just kind of put a team together 05:00 who had expertise in in loading? And then expertise in specific structures related to the knee? And so that's kind of how it kind of came together. And when we're talking about loading of the knee, so in this, in this paper, you're talking about mechanical loading. So let's, let's go with some more definitions here. So what is mechanical loading? And why is it important in respect to the knee will stick to the knee? Yeah. So, you know, in the paper, we really describe mechanical loading, this is the physical forces that act on are free to make demand on the body, either at the system's level, or even on structures at a specific organ or tissue level. And so if you think about mechanical loading can kind of subdivided into different variables, such as, like the magnitude of the load, how long the load is being applied, how frequent it might be applied, or even maybe the direction or the nature of that load. So 06:05 so when we think about loading, though, all those components kind of interact, can interact with one another, and then create different loading patterns that can impact again, the knee is the organ itself, or specific structures within the knee. And when we're talking about loading, I think most people think of loads as external, so something that we are placing on that knee, but there are external loads in their internal loads. Can you kind of differentiate those for the listeners? And how, and why are both important? Yeah. So when we think about, you know, external loads, to kind of think about is like, really kind of that work that's being performed? So like, how far did I run today? Or how high did I jump? So when we think about like, like that, it's almost, it's almost kind of like that outcome in, in an essence when we think about external load. But when we think about internal load, you can either think about what what's the physiological process that's going on inside the body related, potentially related to the external load, or maybe even the psychological. And again, maybe even that biomechanical response to that external load? So So usually, when we think about internal load, it's like, you know, how what, you know, what is your heart rate doing related to how far you run? Or what is the extra? Or what's the amount of stress that's being placed on the knee after you land from a jump? Yeah, so so both are important, especially when it comes to knee injuries, and loading injuries. So let's talk about what are some of the common loading injuries on the knee? 07:54 Yeah, so if you think about some of those different types of loads, you can kind of really subdividing at least at Deneen to kind of three major categories. In essence, whether it's a compressive load, a shear load, or a, you know, a tensile load that occurs, there's some other loads that can occur, such as some hydrostatic pressure loads, but the primary ones are really related to that. And so then if you break that down into specific structures, such as a ligament, you know, like the ACL, which is one of the more common injuries that occurred the knee, you know, that's usually related to some kind of tensile load that's occurring on that ligament, it can occur either from, you know, cyclical loading, where you can continue to put stress on that ligament until that ligament ultimately fails. But usually, it's one usually large load that occurs that relates in, you know, a traumatic tear. That's probably an example of kind of one of the more common ones. But, you know, we, you know, we commonly see other tissues damaged, you know, the meniscus is another common injury. And that's usually again, that's really related more to some compressive with shear load. And then, you know, cartilage also kind of was kind of relies on 09:24 a shear load to be damaged. So 09:28 all those different loads occur on the knee, it just sometimes it depends on again, all those other variables that we've talked about, you know, the nature of it, or the compressive versus the shear versus the tensile load, but then again, how quickly does it occur? Maybe at what angle your knee is bent that can impact all those types of things? Yeah, I would think angles, speed, fatigue levels, hydration levels, you know, 10:00 All of that I can only imagine goes into 10:04 a type of injury from one of these loads, right? And you say, you know, and if think about, you know, again, you have that that external load, but then, you know, think about some of the other internal loads, you know, the muscles around the joint contracting, to maybe unload the knee at a specific time, because, you know, we have, you know, you've seen many athletes like they cut and pivot 1000s of times in a career, why is it that one certain time, they do the exact same maneuver, they've done 1000 times before, their ligament tears or their meniscus tears. So there's, there's so many other underlying factors that lead to it. 10:50 And so part of this papers, at least trying to describe some of those things, so people have an understanding of what is the underlying loads that can can lead to an injury. But then, 11:03 what can we do after that? How can we use those exact same parameters of same loading parameters to rehabilitate them? Because the same, a lot of the same stresses that caused the injury 11:17 also are some of the same stresses that you can use to rehabilitate the injury? Right, and I would think have to use to rehabilitate the injury. Right? Right. Yeah. So so they, so they can adapt to that stress and be ready to handle the stress the next time it occurs. Exactly, exactly. And now what one of the figures we were talking before we went on the air within this paper is figure four. So for everyone who is listening to this, we'll leave a link to the paper in the show notes. But when you go through, you'll see there's one figure it's figure four, it's a conceptual model of loading of the knee. And it's like a monster of a figure like it is. It's large, it looks very intimidating, and very complicated. So can you break it down for us? Yeah. So this is how, you know, we started to think about taking a lot of these other models that have been out there that have described, you know, maybe the physical stress model, or many people have commented on the, 12:24 on the die model, related to the envelope of function, and also the dynamic recursive model related to injury, probably the, is the best one, best way to describe it. But you got to take into all those factors that can influence or just leave somebody susceptible to an injury, 12:52 as well as including this their underlying physiology. And again, that could just be related to those non modifiable factors such as your age and your sex. 13:04 And then again, your underlying physiology, you know, your genetic makeup, maybe even just some kind of a little bit of your underlying fitness level. And then what are some things that can predispose that tissue to injury? And again, it could be, you know, do you have a strong tissue or a weaker tissue? Does the, you know, do you have certain types of muscle fibers, you know, that can influence again, things like fatigue? And then what are the external factors that lead into it? So, some of these models have already been kind of described in the ACL related literature, you know, you know, shoot a surface interactions, whether that occurs out there is, is it turf versus grass. So, those types of things can all potentially influence an injury and then, 14:00 you know, moving into the next part, then you just think about the mechanical load. So, again, all those factors related to magnitude and duration and frequency. And then we wanted to kind of 14:15 try to articulate that, again, if you took, you know, just conceptually took it is looking at each of the different major structures in the knee that could be impacted, and then talked about how those tissues respond to some kind of stress and strain. So, you know, if you put it, 14:39 again that load under a specific type of compressive versus shear strain, how does it respond to that, and William Thompson did a really nice review in ptJ a couple of years ago, looking at some of the Meccano therapy and McKinna biology that occurs at specific 15:00 tissues that Karim Khan had kind of initially proposed back, God 10 years ago or so. And then if you take all those things account, and the stresses and strains, so then you start to look at how that impacts how the tissue adapts to those stresses and strains. And, you know, using kind of the fitness model, or the fitness fatigue model is, is if you apply the right stresses at the right time. And you do that consistently over time, it basically builds up into tissues adapt to it, and it gets stronger, and fitter. But if you don't do it, or you do it at a delayed time, it may stay at a homeostatic level, or than if you do it too infrequently, or the loads are too much, too frequent, then you can actually fatigue the tissues. And, of course, if you get too much fatigue, and you get the right amount of load placed on it, then that can result in injury. And then you kind of go through, go through again, and go through it again. And again, that's part of the rehab process is taking all those things into account. And so 16:22 that's how we tried to really try to conceptualize it and think about, you know, and so we really kind of focused more on the the tissue levels and the response to injury, and how you can use that kind of this conceptual model of kind of stress and strain along those other factors, too. I think it's important to note that we're not only talking about ligaments or meniscus when we're talking about the tissues around the knee, ligaments, meniscus tendon, articular, cartilage bone. It's not just, we're not just talking about ACL 10. Lien, you know what I mean? There's, it's really the all the structures that that make up that knee joint, correct? Correct. Yeah. And, I mean, I think that's even a really important point to like, when we're rehabbing. You know, somebody and you know, you take somebody with a meniscus tear, not only are you impacting the meniscus that you're working on, you're also impacting a lot of the other structures around it. And so you can influence the all that rehab, or that rehab impacts all those tissues, depending on how you're providing the specific load. Right? Absolutely. And, you know, one of the the words that's in that figure is tissue capacity. And so during the rehab process, certainly after injury, but even, let's say, without injury, right, I think one of the goals is to always improve tissue capacity. So can you kind of talk about what exactly that means? What that What does tissue capacity mean and as physical therapists, what where do we stand in the improvement of that capacity. And on that note, we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back. 18:18 When it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and increasing referrals, net Health's Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found get chosen, and definitely get those five star reviews on Google. Net Health is a fun new offer. If you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic when they will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about this new integration, head over to net health.com forward slash li tz y to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit. 18:55 Kind of an in a general layman's term, you think about just tissue capacities, it's all related to the under I think sometimes so the underlying tasks that's being performed, right, you can have a certain level of tissue capacity that allows you to, to walk or run the tissue can meet the demands of that load placed on placed on the body by that specific task. Right. But if the task is too high, or the load is too high, relative to what the tissue can handle the tissue than this doesn't have the capacity to handle that load. And again, it may be able to handle that load one or two times. But over a repeated bout, it may fail much quicker. And so I think sometimes tissue capacity is it's also related to the task that's being performed. may know most of us have enough tissue capacity to to walk community levels and things like that. But you know, we might 20:00 not have the tissue capacity to run a 10k, even though that we may have the underlying structure that we could build up to that, I think those are the things you have to take into account. And from a rehab perspective, you know, you always have to think about kind of that starting point of what people can handle, and then how, how you can adjust the rehab process to improve that capacity over time. So that that leads into what are some ways we can monitor load and respond to that load? So we're the therapist, we're taking care of our patients, how can we monitor and and, and change that load as necessary? Yeah, so. 20:46 So from, you know, a clinician standpoint, you know, most of us probably in the clinic, you know, we don't have high tech equipment, like global GPS units are inertial measurement units to measure 21:01 acceleration, and 21:04 you know, how far people have gone 21:08 a certain amount of distances they walked or jogged or done the whole thing, like you have seen with some of the devices like catapult or, or 21:18 I measure use IMU units. But I think from a clinician standpoint, we still have a lot of great tools that I think are that we still under utilize, to some degree. So, 21:32 you know, I, I always like to tell my students 21:38 that you really are kind of training to look at how the joint is reacting to the, to the loads that you're placing on it? And are you making the tissues more irritable or less, irritable, measuring irritability is probably the best way to describe it. And the knee, you know, you can see things like, you know, increase swelling, you know, 22:02 which is a common, probably a common measurement to see for, for increased irritability, but it can also be, you know, is the joint getting sore versus the muscle getting sore, right? And so trying to be very clear, 22:20 with 22:21 the person you're working with is, you know, does it hurt inside the knee, or is it just hurt in the muscles around the knee, because we'd expect to see some muscle soreness if you're working those, right, but you don't want the, you know, the irritation to be in the knee. Um, so those are probably the two major major, major ones that I like to use. But 22:44 you can also look is, you know, do Did they have a sudden decrease in a range of motion, you know, which can be an impact, or, you know, a factor of them, having some irritability, has their strength gone down, which is probably a little bit harder to assess more consistently, but those are probably the major things I would consider looking at is, if you're starting to see some of those means the tissues become a little bit more irritated. But if you don't see those, then you know, the next, you know, maybe the next session, the next couple sessions, you can start to slowly increase the load a little bit, and see how they respond. And I think that's always the challenging part. Like, I like to challenge my students with is, but that's one of the great things about being a therapist, who is we get to see them again, and see how they respond to our treatments. And we can regress or progress them as needed. Yeah, and and I think that's a really great thing that you said at the end, we can regress or progress as needed. So if someone if you give someone some exercise or some loading, and they come back with like an angry knee, it doesn't mean stop everything and go back to passive range of motion. It means okay, let's just take it down a notch. But continue. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when the the last one I meant should have mentioned is, you know, just even just ask them how they feel. Mm hmm. You know, how are you how do you how does it feel today can give a lot of information then you can use things like you know, a session RPE schedule, you know, scale, say, Okay, your knees a little bit angry. Let's back, let's back your exercise session down two or three today, instead of working at a seven. Mm hmm. So you can still do something still keep the knee moving. Still keep it kind of moving forward, but you've kind of backed off in gave it a little bit time to, to calm down. Yeah. So it's, it's sort of this combination of what you're seeing objectively and then asking them how novel What a novel idea you're doing or you're having 25:00 Having trouble? Yeah. The other day you were doing stairs really well. And now you're having trouble doing stairs, you know, some of these functional day to day things? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think, like you said, those are just really simple tools, I think we, we get so focused on, you know, what we like to call the objective data, instead of just asking people, how do you feel today? Yeah. 25:23 Absolutely. And now, how can we and I say myself, we, I'm a clinician, how can how can we clinicians use the information in this paper to start applying load to a REIT to the rehabilitation of an injured knee? Or post surgical knee? Or what however you want to categorize? Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, as we were talking before, there's a, there's a, there's a lot of data in this in this paper, too, that the clinicians can think canoes, and so I don't want them to get overwhelmed with all the numbers in the data, but it's really there to be is it as a resource for clinicians to say, Okay, I have somebody who has a pretty irritable knee, and these are the activities that we're doing before, you know, and we can get a sense of, okay, that that activity, you know, was, you know, three times body weight, I need to find an activity, that's maybe two times body weight. 26:27 So we can regress them a little bit. And this is an activity that kind of fits that or this was an activity that put this amount of stress on the ligament, we know that that stress is still within us safe range to, to push it a little bit to the next level. 26:47 Because, you know, I think some of the, some of the fear is, is that if we're putting stress on the ligament that we're going to injure it, or even on any tissue, right. But we, as we know that, especially after the initial inflammatory phase, you need to start putting a little bit of stress on the healing tissues, because that's how tissue gets stronger is that it has to respond to stress. But if you're putting, you know, if you're putting state and I'll put an air quotes, safe, safe stresses, or stresses that are below kind of the the below the failure rate, and you're monitoring the knee for those inappropriate responses, then you can use that information to slowly progress them through a rehab safely and adequately the healing structure to then kind of into the next level of repair. The one of the tables, we talked about this, again, before we came on, was table seven, within this paper, where you have some activities where it's like this is like you said, maybe it's 1.4 times body weight, or this is 20 times body weight, or this is eight times body weight. And I think that's a really nice guide for clinicians. But I think it's also a really great educational tool for the patient. So you can show this too, because most patients get it. I think a lot of times we underestimate our patient's ability to understand. Yeah, a lot of these concepts, you know, and and so I think if we can say the patient, hey, listen, this is X amount, your body weight, this activity is less than that. And let's say you're a month out of like some sort of surgical procedure, hey, let's go with the one that's less times body weight than this. And because people say, well, what's the big deal? It seems like it would be fine. But I love that because I think it's a great way for clinicians to use the paper also is a great educational opportunity. Yeah, no, no, I think that's a that's a really valid point, is it? I think if we can educate the patients on, you know, these are the activities that you should be doing right now. And as you strong, get stronger and get better than you can move into these activities the next time, right. And so they're always asking, patients are always asking, like, what can I do now? What can I do now? And so, you know, this table can give them some insight of, okay, this is where you're at. These are the things that you start doing now. And these are the things that probably wait a little bit longer. I think that the patient will really understand the why behind, you're giving them the exercises that you're giving them. Yep. And that's really important, because if people understand the why then maybe they're more likely to do it. Yeah. And follow through. Yep. So I mean, I think it's great. I think this paper is great. Is there anything 30:00 thing that we didn't touch upon in the paper, the process of doing this paper that you would like to share before we start to wrap things up, no, you know, I'd really like to, you know, first of all, thank my co authors who were willing to, to sit down and write this, it was, it was no small feat, you know, pulling together, clinicians from around the world to, to do this. And so, you know, definitely want to, you know, think tour MacLeod, Brian higher shyt, J uebert. Tim Gavitt and Brian eckenrode, for, for agreeing to do this, you know, this, like I said, this was a paper that had been mulling around in my head, probably since I was in PT school, you know, for a long time. And, you know, this just felt like the opportune time to pull it together. And fortunately, you know, in the last several years, last 20 years or so, we have, we have the data now to support a lot of the things that we do is physical therapist that I think intuitively, we've always done. But I think now that we can, we can demonstrate a lot of what we do, and some of the value that we bring to, to rehabilitation into to patients and to clients. Yeah, and and I mean, I like this paper from a rehab standpoint, but I think it's also really great from a strength and conditioning standpoint, right? Because as physical therapists, we don't have to just be the people there when the athlete or the person is injured, we can also be the person that helps to keep them strong and kind of improve, especially in I know, in a lot of professional settings. You've got strength and conditioning coaches, and athletic trainers and pts. But for the average physical therapist, like if you're in a small town, maybe you're it. Yeah, you're doing it all. Yeah. So I think this paper is really helpful not only to progress, people after injury, but to kind of look and say, Hey, this is the load that we can place on you that will hopefully help to decrease your chances of getting injured. Yeah. So I appreciate that in this paper. And now, where can people find you? And like I said, we will have a link to the paper in the show notes. But where can people find you if they have questions of you specifically? Yeah, I'm fairly active on Twitter. And so that's primary, my primary social media outlet so you can find me It's Dave, log PT. You know, if there's any questions or anything like that, that's probably the best, best way to reach me is either directly through DMS, or, or through my Twitter feed. Perfect. And now before we wrap things up, I have one more question. And it's a question I asked everyone is knowing where you are, in your life and in your career? What advice would you give to yourself? Let's say as a new grad, right out of PT school, I would probably, I would say, at that early stage advice, actually was given to me before is don't always don't say no. Always say yes to opportunities, especially in that, that early career, that if an opportunity comes along, take it, it may or may not be the perfect opportunity. It may not be what you dreamed of, but it more likely or not, will 33:32 be the a value to you. And many times it's a huge stepping stone. I would say you know, an opportunity comes along, say yes. Especially when you're young. Yes, yes. Young and full of energy. I think that's great advice. So listen, David, thank you so much for coming on the podcast breaking down this paper. It's a great paper. So congratulations on that. So thank you for coming on. You. Thank You, anytime and everyone. Thanks so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. And a big thank you to Dr. David lager stat for coming on the program and talking all about load parameters around the knee joint and of course, a big thank you to Net Health. So again, their digital digital marketing solutions can help your clinic win by allowing you to get found get chosen and get those five star reviews on Google. They have a new offer if you sign up and complete a marketing on it to learn how digital marketing solutions can up your clinic when they'll buy lunch for your office. Head over to net help.com forward slash li T zy to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit today. 34:41 Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy wealthy smart.com And don't forget to follow us on social media
Dr. Tracy Brower, PhD, MM, MCRW is Principal, Applied Research & Consulting at Steelcase, Lorri Rowlandson is Senior Vice President of Strategy and Innovation at BGIS, and Vik Bangia is CEO at Verum Consulting, LLC. In November 2021, Mike Petrusky hosted a live broadcast “State of the Workplace 2022: Human Experience Roundtable” during which these thought-leaders explored how human experience factors into the future workplace and discussed how the workplace has changed over the course of the pandemic. They talked about new ways of incorporating experience into your workplace strategy, shared predictions about the future ways of using the office, and offered guidance on preparing the workplace for 2022. Check out these audio highlights from a fascinating hour-long conversation and then download and watch the full video! Connect with Tracy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracybrowerphd/ Connect with Lorri on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorri-rowlandson-a4a48b17/ Connect with Vik on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vik-bangia-0b54522/ Watch the full hour video including Q&A with Tracy, Lorri, Vik and Mike: https://www.iofficecorp.com/download-webinar-state-of-the-workplace-2022-human-experience-roundtable Discover free resources and explore past interviews at: https://www.workplaceinnovator.com/ Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikepetrusky/ Share your thoughts with Mike via email: podcast@iOFFICECORP.com
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Short answer: YES.Longer answer: Some people have digestive vulnerabilities that can be reversed.Want to tolerate nightshades and build digestive resilience?Eat More Plants!In today's Medicinal Monday, we unpack this topic in greater depth and debunk any misconceptions that might be held around nightshades, lectins, and other "inflammatory" vegetables.If you'd like to join these conversations live, be sure to Subscribe to the Alter Health YouTube Channel! https://www.youtube.com/alterhealthSome highlights from today's MM episode...- Nightshades are in the Solanaceae family, including plants like belladonna known for having toxic glycoalkaloids - Potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant are all nightshades, also sometimes feared for their lectin content- There is zero evidence that glycoalkaloids (or small amounts of natural lectins) have inflammatory effects- Glycoalkaloids and lectins are phytonutrients that actually have health-promoting benefits (anticancer, immune-boosting, gut resilience, and more)- Food sensitivities are always due to intestinal dysbiosis, which is reversed by eating MORE plantsLinks to some more good stuff- Join Alter Health on Locals: https://alterhealth.locals.com/- Cleanse with Us during the next Alter Health Cleanse: https://www.alter.health/cleanse- Work with us in the Thrive on Plants program: https://www.alter.health/thrive-on-plants- ATTN Health Practititioners! Learn more and apply to the Plant Based Mind Body Practitioner Program: https://www.alter.health/pbmb-practitionerPeace and Love.
Jacob Lyerly (MM '20, Guitar & Pedagogy) joins Robin McGinness to discuss how his experience in the Arts in Health and other Peabody programs built the skills he uses in his career today. While at Peabody Jacob was a member of LAUNCHPad's student staff, an active performer solo and with his duo Un/Strung, and a regular participant in … Continue reading 11. Max Q – Jacob Lyerly →
In this episode, the M&M brothers get to dig into the fear of public speaking... AND how to break through it!! What are the questions you need to ask to bust that negative talk? *This episode is sponsored by The GAPAPS Success Blueprint - 6 Simple Steps to Lifelong Success ©2021 FINANCIALLY ALERT LLC & SUCCESS BY CHOICE INC. All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this podcast is for general education purposes only. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage derived from the information provided.
Catch up with Devon and Tamara of the Align and Rise Podcast: They are here to empower spiritual beings to tap into their fullest potential. They share memories & experiences to inspire and uplift you. Remember you are authentic, unique and there is only ONE YOU! They are two women who love to chat about all the in-depth experiences, opportunities, and growth that we have navigated our way through. They love life, and they love growing and they love hearing about other people‘s perspectives. Their conversations steam from their personal experiences, memories, and knowledge that they have gathered along the way. They are striving every day to be better than they were yesterday! Connect with Align & Rise on Insta: https://www.instagram.com/align_and_rise/ Unknown Speaker 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited as Bob process? Rest assured, you are not alone, the world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the questions you never even knew to ask. But he's the answers to questions about you this world, the people in it? And most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another head of spiritual dub with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode. Brandon Handley 0:40 One, hey, there's spiritual dope. I'm on here today with Devin and tomarrow of the Align and rise podcast. And they're here to empower spiritual beings to tap into their fullest potential. They share memories and experiences to inspire and uplift you. Remember you are authentic, unique, and there's only one you they are two women who love to chat about all the in depth experiences, opportunities and growth that you they have navigated throughout their way. They love life growing and they love to hear other people's perspective. They love to hear other people. So demonstra thanks for having being here Unknown Speaker 1:21 today. Thanks for having us. Unknown Speaker 1:24 We're super excited. Thank you. This is our very first interview. On another podcast. We're usually the ones doing the interviewing. So this is really exciting. Brandon Handley 1:34 Well, yeah, right. Yeah. Well, you had me on and that was part of the conversation. And I think that there was the jet. I said, Hey, how can I support you guys? Right? And you were like, Go big or go home? It wasn't exactly like that. I was like, You know what? Okay, probably was it says, you know, what, if we what if we were on your podcast? Like hell yeah. Right. So it's kind of a no brainer. So thanks for thanks for being on. This is actually my first one where I've interviewed two people simultaneously as a unit got alive and rise here. So I'd be interested to hear your response here. One of the ways that I look at this whole thing that we're doing right, we're sending an amplified communication out to the universe, as it were, and we ourselves are all vessels of creative source energy, whatever, right? We express that throughout whatever we're doing. And sometimes the answers and come conversation that we have, is going to be heard by somebody on the other end, it's just like, wow, I really needed that today, right? And my question to the both of you is, what is that message that's coming through you today that you need to share with the universe? Unknown Speaker 2:59 When we're both looking at each, usually, Unknown Speaker 3:03 let's talk first Unknown Speaker 3:08 just throws me in the spotlight. I think honestly, for us, like, we've had so many incredible opportunities come up on this journey of growth. And we could have thrown the towel in 100 times. But recognizing that we are here for something bigger, and we were created with a purpose, we've understood, throwing in the towel is not an option. We've learned that we are here to serve others. And we were given the opportunity to start podcasting and being able to serve others through that. And I think the biggest message is honestly just to hear what's on your heart, and understand that that is placed there specifically for you, as an individual, nobody else gets that dream that you have on your heart. And just to chase it, and to go after it with as much love and tenacity and enthusiasm as possible. And it's gonna feel hard and it's gonna feel tough, but you just have to keep going. Unknown Speaker 4:12 Mm hmm. Well, and sometimes like, I think that in that space as well, when you're going through stuff, it's sometimes it feels like the same stuff, kind of repeat it's like, term that I heard was rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. And those are like lessons in life that we get to go through in order to get to the next place where you get to do something different another rinse and repeat until you learn from that and, and what I feel is that it's really nice to be able to, excuse me, get a cough in my throat is to have that with someone else where that person can Be there for you recognize things and very lovingly bring that to you. I just got like that frog in my throat like the worst time was like a tickle. I don't know why Brandon Handley 5:16 there's never a good time for a frog in the throat must be, let's be clear there so Unknown Speaker 5:20 well it's like literally it's like feels like it's going into my left eye right now. Anyways, that's a Crazy Frog. Ah, yes, anyways, so that's the other view here. Brandon Handley 5:30 Yeah, we're gonna be here to help you recover. That's gonna be the first thing we're here for. So I enjoy, you know, the idea that we're here for a bigger purpose, we can satisfy a number of our own personal needs, and even our family's needs. And still, it seems kind of like, we're not giving all that we've got right, we're not feeling as though we're contributing, I think that what you're talking about is the idea of contributing to the greater good and the whole. And, and in a way that you're doing doing it. That's being led by the heart. It's kind of what I'm getting from the both you and then the idea to that. Being able to do it with each other, the way that you two are and having that kind of support mechanism. And I think it was Devin, you were talking about, you know, being able to, you know, basically call somebody out on their bullshit but lovingly, or vice versa. Right, be like, Hey, how do we how do I, you know, I see that you're, you know, sometimes somebody doesn't respond to like, I see that you're struggling? How can I help? And sometimes it's got to be done in another way. But still from a place from the heart. And it sounds like that's what the two of you have found with each other. And you're working. You're scaling that by doing your podcast? Is that fair? Yeah. I love that. Like it's called heartland. Unknown Speaker 7:09 Yeah, absolutely. And we have realized, we tried one podcast having like, kind of a guideline and a script, I feel like it was a little bit of a disaster. And we have realized that intuitive, that that's us, we we just follow our heart and we listen to our gut. That's what we speak from. We don't have a script, we don't have questions. Even the interviews that we've done, have all just been intuitive and heartless, and that feels so good. And I think that's really helped our relationship where we've come together to have that peace to lean on one another, and to call each other out on those things. And it's honestly, like, I can't hide anything from Devin to try. It's like, okay, like, you're not doing this, tell me what's going on. It's like the floodgates open. And then we just have this like, yes, that's how I'm feeling. I couldn't put it into words, and you felt it and you figured it out. And just having this place of zero judgment of complete, just love. Just knowing that it doesn't matter what we're going through, we're always gonna get through it together. And it's been really cool to have this platform podcasting together, because we get to share those experiences with other people and serve them while we grow at the same time and then share that story of growth. And it's just really been the coolest experience. Brandon Handley 8:42 Sounds like yeah, I would call it like, acceptance and action. Right, and you to have found, you know, a friendship, a partnership, where it's, you know, you accept each other for who you are and what you're going through, and, and you're helping each other forward in a supportive manner towards towards your dreams, right, the two of you put this podcast together, you were talking, we were talking a little bit before we got going here. You know, how there's been some stumbling blocks in what it is that you're doing, which I want to get to. But what I wanted to really hit on first is like, right, you know, for me, this is my third podcast, right? My first one was on fatherhood, which was cool, no one diver. Second one was on, you know, prosperity, law of attraction type stuff, also great. But then I was like, fuck it, like I'm really just kind of hiding behind this curtain of, you know, like this, you know, Wizard of Oz style, where like, I'm not really talking about what's on my heart, which is spirituality and leaning into that. And since I've done that, it's been awesome. Right? So my question is, you know, what made you to decide spirituality was was was your, your kind of lean in and go forward thing and let's talk about how you found yourselves there. Unknown Speaker 9:58 That's going to be different quite like that's very, that's looks so different. I would like to I would like to leave this one tomorrow because I think this actually has to be love for you too. I think this actually like my, my spirituality and how I have found so much love and acceptance from Tamara. So like, to kind of give you the backstory, Tamara and I went to youth group together for years. And in high school. Here, as I say, like two I was only in Creston for two years when and started going to church and Tamara joined and she's younger than like a monk. Yeah, she's younger than me. And we were going and so we were like, very much like we got called, like Holy Rollers and stuff. We were part of the Pentecostal church, we were called a lot of things that we found like community, which was great. And then I got married really young at 21 had four kids ended up separating from my x, and I've been separated now for six years. Last God just completely dropped God in every way, don't talk to me about him, I'm never setting foot in another church, I felt very hurt, very betrayed from just like everything that went on in the relationship that I liked. And in that time, Tamara started reaching out to me through Beachbody. And we kind of started talking and then I joined eventually under her and so we started having more of a relationship and, and bringing up our friendship from the past. And what I had found was as I was journeying through like both of us, I would say, really, our spiritual journey both started is about six years ago, for both of us where there was like this. Right, like, like a hard line, like you were talking about line. And that's like your thing lately, tomorrow's like line in the sand. This was like a hard interval is very different places, but a hard line. And we started kind of growing, and probably two years without each other of just growth. And then we really started stepping into each other's life. What I had found was going from the state of like, I was very devout to church and everything for a long time, and then completely losing myself to all of it. Like I went down to the very bottom of the bottom with that, like, I felt very lost, I felt alone, didn't know what I was doing, knew that I wanted to I needed needed spirituality on some level. And I just didn't know what that was gonna look like, because I had lost all of my faith. And through all of everything that I have been through, Tamara has been there and held my hand, watched me cry, loved me, never judged me. She was going to church, he was going, she never judged me. There was not a single time that and maybe she maybe she did, but she let it go, right? If she did have any judgments, but she was there, she loved me. And that created open space. And gave me grace gave me forgiveness, to realize that tomorrow was like the example of what a person going to church should look like. And it led me Not that I'm going back to church, not that I'm stuck. Like, I'm not doing that, um, I found my own spirituality in just believing that God is or the universe or the source energy, whatever you want to call it is around us all the time. But it allowed me to get some forgiveness for myself, and for the people around me because of the scars that were there when I left my relationship. So for me, spirituality is more than just finding within yourself. It's like also the other people that are around you, they get to support you and love you and love like, Jesus love, right? Like, that's, that's what tomorrow. I mean, this is just tomorrow, right? This is one person I've had other people in my life who are very spiritual in different ways, and we're, we're just all connected. And that spirituality to me is like, there is spirituality doesn't see any hard lines of like your, you know, your Jehovah's Witness your Mormon, your Pentecostal your Catholic it, it should never see that it should just be like we are one we are connected. And we need to love each other period. Brandon Handley 14:39 Like it, you know, really sounds sounds like the six year journey for you. And kind of, you know, this just loss of spirituality. Which I kind of I do want to dig into that a little bit. I love how you guys correct me if I'm wrong, but Beachbody MLM yes or no Yeah, I love how you guys reconnected through like an MLM. Right? Like you always hear horror stories, but this sounds like a good one. And you know, so it was Unknown Speaker 15:09 really funny because I sent the worst messages back then. Brandon Handley 15:13 No doubt, no doubt, right? I mean, I think absolutely, that's right. That's part of the path. And trust me, again, I know, right? You're just like, you know, hey, this is what you're supposed to say. I'm sure I'll say this. Everybody's by my shit. You'd be a great salesperson anyways. You'd be great at this. So let's hear a little bit on your side. And then we can kind of unpack some of this stuff. Unknown Speaker 15:40 Yeah, absolutely. So as Devin was saying, we both grew up in the Pentecostal church, like I went to, I think it was called, like the school or something. It was like church before kindergarten, preschool, basically, but in a church. So like, my grandma grew up in the Pentecostal church, my aunts, uncles, on my mom's side of the family, all very, like spiritual. And that was there, we prayed, we all of the things that of course, like had my years through my teen years, where I struggled and all of the things. But really, the last six years for sure, coming up seven, so my youngest, after he was born, I struggled and hit rock bottom with postpartum, though worst depression and anxiety I've ever experienced in my whole entire life. And for me, I leaned in so hard to my faith and my relationship with God, I'm just becoming closer with him praying, really just leaning on family and reaching out to those family members who were, you know, Christian in my family, who believed in faith, who believed in prayer, who believed in coming together, and just like leaning on all of that. And so I just think it's really cool how, around the same time frame, Dev was literally falling apart and losing her faith. And I was leaning in hard, and like how we both came together to this place where we are now. So that was really where everything kind of started for me. But it turned into not so much just like that. God relationship, the heart relationship with my heavenly Father, it was like, I didn't know who I was. I had no idea what that even looked like, I was a mom, I had these kids, I was struggling, life sucked. I was literally surviving and just getting through my days. And I remember my son was 10 months old, and I was depressed, and I was binge eating. And I was doing all of these things that I thought happiness was somewhere in there. And I remember just like that line in the sand, there has to be more I need to feel more than this. Like this can't just be it for the rest of forever, where I just get up and I just survive through my days. And I raised my kids and I'm unhappy. And that was where I really started seeking more of a relationship inner of who I was. And I started doing that work inside that healing work that working through anxiety, working through the Depression, that I was feeling, letting go of those things. And really, opening up to this whole world of like, who I was, as an individual, I was a mum really young. And I lost that when I became a mom, I was just a mom and I was just a wife and I was just a whatever. And I didn't have this, I didn't know who I was. And so that was sort of my journey back into figuring out who I was letting go of those people pleasing tendencies of worrying about other people's opinions and really, truly just getting to the core of who I am. And that sort of got this direction that I moving in like and it feels so freeing and it feels so good. And just to realize everybody has their own spiritual journey, not one person doesn't look the same. And I've realized like I used to have this very narrow view of it's only the church it's only this is only one way it has to be God it has to be that I've realized like I love hearing like stories from Jay Shetty love Him the whole journey of a monk Buddhism like all everybody has this universal God that they serve. And that that that is love like like Devin said we're we're here to love people. And it doesn't matter where we find that love or what that looks like or feels like to each of us because it's different and different. is beautiful. Brandon Handley 19:53 I mean look right with without without without those differences, then then it's kind of kind of boring, right? You got this same show, one was going all the way back to the beginning when he talked about was it rinse and repeat same stuff, right, you're gonna see the same thing over and over again. There's no chance for revision or something else, right? I always think about the whole idea that to have like, if you know what tomorrow is gonna be like, it's gonna be kind of easy, right, kind of, like Groundhog's Day. You know, you do like, the great thing about like, knowing that tomorrow is gonna be the same as today, like, Okay, well, since, what, whatever it say it was like, I can make tomorrow better by eliminating some of the things that didn't work and doing more of the things that did. Right. And as for, you know, I kind of talk What I mean is that it's not fun, right? You found yourself in survival mode, like, you know, binge eating and things like that, and looking for happiness not and of course, like, sometimes you think you're happy when you're eating that ice cream, like cookies and cream it's in? I'm happy in this moment. But like you're crying at the same time, like, why is Unknown Speaker 21:05 your bag of chips at 3am. Brandon Handley 21:09 But it also it also, you know, sounds like you do, we're stuck in your identity, crisis of identity. You go from you go from you know, kind of school to being a parent, there's no time for you to discover who you are as a person. Right? Because you, you haven't spent that time as an individual. And then now you're giving all that you are and who you are, to like this family and and to your point, you're like, Hey, I'm just trying to find some Hi, how can I be happy? How can I be me? Outside of this cog in the system? Right. It sounds to me like that's kind of where you got caught, right? And then finding, leaning into your spiritual, I was kind of funny, you mentioned, you know, you you were leaning in, and you you were finding your religion in Devon was losing hers, right? It's kind of what was going on. But at the same time, you too, were, you know, able to grab hold of each other again, and just say, hey, you know, tomorrow for us, like, you know, the more I dig into this, the more I'm finding my face. And Devin for you, you're like, the further I get away from it, the more that I find that I need it, and finding you know what work for you. He has figured that out sounds like kind of together, right? And as you're talking tomorrow sounds to me also, like, it's liberating to be connected to spirit, right connected to whatever that looks like for you. And as you're saying, like, everybody's journey is gonna be a little different. I know that after I kind of went through my own awakening experience, like, this is how it's gonna be for you. And this is how it's gonna be. And then you're gonna go up against like, you know, your journey. And oh, and then when you tripped over this hole in the ground, this is where you're going to be I know exactly where you are. Right? And I don't, I can't, right, because your journey is gonna be like you said, 100% 100% your own. So you too. Yeah, lost it. Yeah, pulled it back together. And now like, you've kind of pulled it back together, you've got this platform, what's your intent with it now kind of going forward? And like, what are some of the what are some of the challenges that you're having? Unknown Speaker 23:34 To do you Unknown Speaker 23:39 I just feel like I wanted to touch on one more thing. And this basically led to it. So this whole like parenting thing. Devin is really helped me realize, like in that whole losing your identity and finding yourself and like, I still have these moments where I'm like, my kids need me all the time. And Devon's like, they're not gonna die when you're doing the things that you want to do. So, this has been, like a really good lesson for me, but we're a busy family, my kids are doing all the things and I'm running here, and I'm doing this and like, I feel like, this might not come out. Right, but like, they depend on me. It's already not coming out, right? Maybe I want them to depend on me more than they actually do. Maybe that's it, that feels really shitty to say. Brandon Handley 24:37 Look, I mean, I mean, and that's part of that's part of just saying all right, well, it's it's it's a work in progress, right? It's like identifying that me like, is that true? Right. That's just kind of one of those things that you can kind of go through as an exercise be like, you know, I don't know. Not for nothing to air, but nobody's knocked on your door and like a half hour. Unknown Speaker 24:58 I know. Right? This is they're fine. They're, they're thriving downstairs. So yeah, just like little thing was we were eating in a podcast today. And then my son needed me. And I was like, Deb, like, my kiddo needs me. And we were gonna meet up in podcasts. And I like, texted her and I was like, I'm like, feeling all the things and I'm sitting in it, and I'm just letting and letting it go. And she calls me she's like, okay, like, what's happening, and like, helped me unpack how I'm feeling. And it was like, I'm trying to cram all of these things in one day. And this is how I explained it. I was like, Wednesday's were, we're typically podcasting days, that's what we did. And then they turned into, like, my only day off. And now all of these other things are piling up, and I'm trying to balance it all and fit it into one day, which is affecting our podcasting. Because, obviously, I can't balance all the things that I was like, that fills my cup. Lately, Wednesday's feel like, you know, when you put a cup in the sink, and you crank the water on and like, the waters just splashing out of the cup, and none of it staying in there. Because it's like, full force, and then you shut the water off and the cups just empty. I pray for water fresh Alex basically. Brandon Handley 26:19 Yes, like that. I get it. So, you know, you're, it sounds like you're going through, you know, just kind of the growth mode, right, of how to make it all work and how to, you know, this is the thing that you want to be doing. And I think we talked a little bit at the beginning, like, you know, universe is gonna throw like little things that you'd be like, Are you sure that's what you want to do? And, you know, you've got to kind of work through that to show the universe that God however you want to look at it. Right that, yeah, this is the thing I want to be doing. So stop fussing with it. Unknown Speaker 26:51 Right. It's like the little squirrel on the tree, like throwing nuts. That's it? And you're like, where's this? Brandon Handley 26:58 So, you know, look, parent parenting, I think is one of those things where, again, yeah, we want them. We, it's a challenge. We want them to want us sometimes more than they actually need us. And even that's a challenge, right? As we're growing, because like, What do you mean, you don't need me anymore? So and again, that just caused you to kind of go back into the womb I identity questions, what am I attached to? Right, just another opportunity to look at your attachments of yourself and all that other. Egotistical shifted, I don't know how to talk to so all good there. But as so look, you got it, you guys are figuring it all out. Right? And you're working it through. So what's, you know, what's on the rise for a line and rise? What are you guys looking to do with this platform? Oh, Unknown Speaker 27:49 man, we Well, here's the thing. We, we I think that that the really cool thing about doing something that you don't know, is that you constantly get to learn. And so, I mean, we've taken so many pivots, we've turned so many times already, like, we don't know exactly where we're headed. But we we I mean, we, we have some ideas, we have some thoughts about where we're where we're going, but it feels like every time that we do something, you always have something else that's kind of up the ante and up the ante, you know, like, it's like, you know, when we first started the podcast, and, you know, we're learning all these things, and doing all these things and recording that we never knew how to do to begin with. So we do those things. And we're like, Okay, now we're good. And then we're like, we're not interviewing anybody, obviously, we're just gonna do and then now we started interviewing, and now we're being interviewed. And now we're starting to do tic TOCs. And now we're starting to Instagram lives. And so we don't really know. But that's the beauty of just having trust and faith that the universe has your back. And that when you believe that your intuition is always guiding you and that it's never wrong, then you open up freedom and space to constantly pivot and constantly move. And that's kind of I think, and Americans speak for, for herself in this point, that that's kind of where it feels like we're headed is just that we're constantly moving. And we're constantly like, this is one moment that, you know, with the block, shall we call it but it's not even really a block. It's just like, we're there together. We're pointing it out together. She's like, Yes, I see this clearly. Let's move through it. How can I and then so she's figuring out like, Hey, I just got to free up one more day for myself so I can get these things done. And then I can focus on this. Just podcasts on this day, because she wants it and so you know, you're talking about you know the universe saying Oh, do you wanted enough? Well, We want this it just happens that we are two people. And we're both affected. Because it's ours. It's I'm not just finding rise. I'm it's Tamara and Devin that is aligned in rise. So I feel like then a book that we're reading the 12 week year, he talks about accountability. But he said, accountability is never like someone else, you know, you don't get to blame someone else when you don't do something. Accountability is just so that that person can help you measure your goals and make sure that you're staying on track, but it's still yours. You know, we have this tainted view of like, accountability, that that part in this book, really, because I think a lot of times people are like, just keep me accountable. And then if you don't like if you're not like, Hey, did you work out? Hey, did you work out? They're like, Oh, you didn't keep me? No, no, no, no, no, you're accountable for you. I'm here to help you, I'm here to help, you know, guide you, but you still have to go push play, and you still have to lift the weights. And so that's, um, you know, how we're getting over any blocks that we come up, this isn't the first time like that, you know, we've headed over a block and and then we just take a turn, because maybe something may be slowing us down so that we could see this thing over here that we're really interested in. And that's kind of so we're really, I think, just focused on being guided by our own intuition. And, you know, call it spirituality call it whatever. Yeah, that's where tomorrow, I don't know if you have anything else to add. But Unknown Speaker 31:33 I just want to add that we, I think I started this, like, we had a little woman's conference with our book club a couple years ago. And I kind of started this, everything works out exactly as it's supposed to. And it didn't matter what it was, every time something would happen. We'd feel like there was like a little stone thrown in the way or like a blip in our plan. I would just say that. And I'm really leaning into that right now. Like all of the things that kind of feel tough and a little bit gray and a little bit like where are we going? It like Deb said it's honestly just leaning in trusting the process. And just really trusting that everything works out exactly as it's supposed to. Brandon Handley 32:18 Really, like Joseph Campbell, follow your bliss kind of thing. You guys are working. Is that what I'm hearing? Unknown Speaker 32:25 Yeah. We I've never heard of him, but it sounds great. Oh, Brandon Handley 32:32 that's terrible. I have to boot you know, Unknown Speaker 32:36 maybe just send me a link. Brandon Handley 32:39 I guess I could do that. That doesn't seem as aggressive or anything like that. Unknown Speaker 32:42 Does that make you nicer? Brandon Handley 32:46 No shock factor there. Unknown Speaker 32:50 So one thing I do want to add, though, is go ahead if that's okay. Yeah. In terms of like, where we're heading to is we're just like constantly pivoting and moving and what wherever we're supposed to be as where we're supposed to be one of our biggest part of our vision, I guess the biggest part of it. Yeah, our dream is to, again, we have no idea what it looks like. But we see ourselves like speaking on stages, we would love to host a conference, like a mindset conference, where we're focusing on, like, our health and wealth and spiritual, all of the things to do with like, this growth journey, and just sharing tips and tricks and coming together with other people that have things that they can offer to serve other people in creating something really big and fun out of it. Brandon Handley 33:46 Yeah, let me look, it's kind of like, um, before coming on this podcast, because sometimes speak that out loud, right? Because sometimes we hold these dreams and and we're like, Ah, I'm not gonna tell anybody. Just go eat, see what happens. Not gonna tell anybody this is what I want, though speaking it into a corner, but like, you know, speaking some of that stuff out loud to the people that you know, so they know, right? Like, you know what, I was talking to somebody else that would like to do something similar. How can I connect you guys, right? So I think that, you know, in terms of sharing that type of information, what is your vision? What does that look like for you? And for others that are tuning in? They can they might, you know, a hear your journey and be like, Hey, I would like to start a podcast with a friend and what's that look like? It looks like not knowing what you're doing and then going to do it. Right, which is, you know, that's the first step for a lot of anybody, right? Just make a decision to go ahead and do it. How do you feel, you know, a big part two of all this is now that you feel like you're connected spiritually. You know, how do you how do you feel like You're integrating that like every day sounds to me, like, you know, what was what was your mantra earlier tomorrow? Like, yeah, this is meant to be. Everything works out exactly. Unknown Speaker 35:11 Works out exactly as it's supposed to. Yeah. Brandon Handley 35:15 We know, one of the questions I've certainly gotten before is like he without, without, like, definite vision or a plan? Is anybody beating you up on that you know, Unknown Speaker 35:26 at all? About it having a vision or plan? Well, you know, it'd Brandon Handley 35:30 be like, what's your plan, you need to have a plan, you gotta have a plan. If you don't have anything that you don't have a target, where are you gonna go? You know, is that anybody? Anything that's come up in your conversations? Are you just again, you know, following following your face? Unknown Speaker 35:43 Hmm. Well, I remember having this conversation about not having expectations. And that's not like, we don't give a shit. No expectations. It's honestly, and Deb can touch more on this, because I love how she says it. But basically, like, if we have this narrow path of where we're going, there's so many things we're gonna miss out on. Because we're, we have our blinders on. And we're like, this is this one thing that we want. There's so many other things for us. And if we're just like, hey, no expectations, the world is our oyster. We have so many more opportunities to grow and pivot along the way, because we have we see see more opportunities. Mm hmm. Unknown Speaker 36:27 Yeah, I, we that was our beginning of our year that we started out with the no expectations, like I had done a week in the giant in Book Club. I think it was just me, and maybe one of the other girls, because it's like a massive book by Tony Robbins. And he even says in there, he talks about how so this like, actually ended up playing into our conversation when we started talking about it in January of last year, because I had read the book in November, December. And so it was like, he talks about how like, it's good to get like goals, like you can say I want to live in a house on the ocean. But he said, You don't have to be like, it has to be blue with yellow shutters. And it has to look exact, he's like, it doesn't have to be that specific. And then when you do that, it's like, so limited to like, it has to look exactly like this, or I am not accepting it. And what that just doesn't feel good. So like, we have decided that this like last year, for example, that our our plans are, what they are like we we have this plan to host a conference, our friend owns. She just bought a motel last year, and she's working on creating a retreat center. That's happening, her dreams, and ours are aligning. We've talked about it with her, we've discussed it, we've dreamt we've had these visions, and we've had visions separately, all three of us. And then we share them to each other. We're like, this is what I saw. And this is you know, like. And so there's this beautiful part, that makes me really excited that like, I can only dream up of mostly like what we create, unless we sit down very intentionally, to dream really, really big, which most of us do not do. We know what we know. And we're like, Well, I guess, you know, like, you could say, well, you know, you don't have a car, you're like, Well, I guess I could just like maybe maybe I could just get like a Honda Civic or something. But when you're required to dream big, you're like, you need to ask for like, you know, a McLaren or like a Lamborghini. Or like, it's, we're not. And I think that we get like, held down by that we get held down by the fact that we you know, it's just like just just down here. Just ask for the things down here. But in reality, the universe is like, what do you want, like, just open it up. And then that thing gets to look like however it wants to look. So if Tamara and I are walking on the path, and we see a window open, we can poke her head through, we don't have to commit to fully go in there. But we can like look in and see if it's something that we've won. And then if we don't we just keep going. But we we got to see, we got to see what we liked or what we didn't want or you know, whatever. Um, I think that's the beauty of like spiritual journey is the beauty of like, where our podcast is headed. To this we know that it's headed like this is practice for us. Like all of the stuff that we're doing all the podcasting being on your show, like this is all practice. There was a time when we first started we were so nervous. I'm sure you can relate to that feeling when you first start a podcast you're like, it's like a little jittery and now and I did not like being in front of cameras just asked me I like was not okay with it. And now it doesn't even faze me. You know. So you get used to these things and it's like Okay, so now we know this Now we get to level up again, what's the next step? And what's? So I think that's the part I'm most excited about is like, I don't know what I don't know. So like, as I level up, I get to see the next thing. And then I'm like, okay, like, this is exciting. And then we go through some more growth and it's painful. Yeah, exactly. You know, Brandon Handley 40:21 right, right now, like you're saying, you know, when you first start off, right, it's kind of scary. And it's also, we we ask for the things we think we can get right? Like, I'll take a Honda, pretty sure I can get a fucking Honda. Like, yeah, but you know, then you're like, but what I really like is a fleet of McLaren. So they can get one like, every different day and different colors and like, and so you know, but we don't we, we've been taught to, you know, kind of, just keep our heads down and, and work hard and flop. Blah, blah, there's no fun in that. There's, it's, it's hard to it's hard to imagine yourself being bigger if you're, you know, always grinding away, right, something along those lines, at any rate, what I like about sorry, that too, is like, you know, you're sharing your stories with the other friend who's gotten the hotel bill in the retreat centers. It's kind of like synchronicity, right. The things that's what's the whole the whole idea of like, you know, what you seek is seeking you type of thing. Yeah, totally. So look, man, I get it, right. No expectations, here's what we want to do. Here's how we want to feel why we do it. This is how we already feel while we're doing what we're doing. We're gonna keep doing it. We're doing something over here. Doesn't feel right. If it doesn't align, we can't rise. I'm gonna run with that. Right? And yes. So thanks for sharing that. Let me get to a part here that I like to get to. Unless there was anything else you wanted to tag on to that last part. Unknown Speaker 42:01 I'm good. Unknown Speaker 42:03 Actually, I do. I'm just like a little backstory on like Devin and me and our friend has the hotel. So the three of us actually started a book club together, before we even like, really stepped into this like, journey together. And so yeah, we just like had this little vision of like, oh, let's like start reading some books together. And now we're literally planning, mindset and spiritual retreats. World Brandon Handley 42:32 domination, that's Unknown Speaker 42:33 pretty cool. I got world money. Brandon Handley 42:38 I got that. It's great. And the thing that you're you're seeing is that you're all helping each other to grow. And more than just like a spiritual sense. And I think that's pretty cool. So this is a little part that I like to get to, in regards to do even just this whole podcast space, right? So somebody tuned into this podcast or to tune into your podcasts or on their spiritual journey. It's like a spiritual speed dating session, right? So like, I'm gonna tune in for like, one hour or 30 minutes or whatever, is that this podcast, you know, tickles my spiritual fancy, then I'll keep hanging out. So in that vein, I've actually got two bachelor's, this will be fun. So I'm going to ask a couple of questions related to spirituality. So let's see here. Doo doo doo doo. These aren't that great, but we'll run with them. Bachelot number one, if you're in a bad mood. Do you prefer to be left alone or have someone cheer you up? Unknown Speaker 43:42 Here's bachelor number one. Brandon Handley 43:43 Take a choice. Unknown Speaker 43:47 Your Bachelorette number one? Sure. Unknown Speaker 43:51 I need to be alone. Definitely alone, like doing some meditating doing some deep breathing. Going for a walk. Like Please don't talk to me. Because I might say something I regret Brandon Handley 44:07 Fair enough. Bachelot number two. Unknown Speaker 44:11 Oh, I get the same. Okay. I also, um, I I'm just trying to think here. I think that initially, I definitely need to be left alone, but I do enjoy like a hug after I've processed some things. So then I want someone who like rub my back and give me a hug. But first, yeah, like bath. It's like bath time. It's like bubble bath, Brandon Handley 44:37 or something. Yeah, no, if I'm here and leave me the hell alone. Yeah, I'm gonna have to process this. Yeah. Let's see. This would be the last one here to do to do tu tu tu. I like to always ask, you know, do you use feel like our current religion is serving us or not? It's rare that won't go to you. Unknown Speaker 45:07 Yep, she's, she's Bachelorette number one. Like our current religious. Brandon Handley 45:13 Like, like, you know, it's Christina. Oh, yeah, like, for example, like Christianity is Christianity is organized religion serving. So we're not Unknown Speaker 45:23 this is a good way. This is how I view juicy. This is how I view so I am not religious, I am Christian. And I feel like the difference is in religion, we are not given a choice. Myself, I view myself as like a Christian who has the choice, I get to choose whether I want to have a relationship with God, in our family growing up, we were never forced to go to church, we had the choice, we had the option if we wanted to, we could, we weren't put in this box of like, these are the rules. And if you do not follow them, like we're booting you out. And so my experience as a Christian has just been being accepted and loved for exactly who I am. In all of my rough moments, and my falling and my stumbling. And all of those things I've just been showed love and grace. And so I am showing that love and grace to other people. And Deb touched on that earlier when we were talking that, and I didn't know that you felt so strongly that love for me like I had no idea. And so clearly in hearing that from Deb, it is serving a purpose for me. Brandon Handley 46:48 I love it. I love it. Devin, what about you? You lost a religion? Yeah, found it. You found spirituality. So let's do it. Let's talk about what that look like for you. Unknown Speaker 46:58 So the question is, do I think that religion is what serves Brandon Handley 47:04 serving, serving, serving, you know, is religion serving like us? Well, Unknown Speaker 47:12 oh, this is such a hard one. Because I know I know people who are amazing, that are devout to whatever their faith is. Brandon Handley 47:24 This one's just yes for me. Unknown Speaker 47:25 Oh, I don't know how to do that without like, I just up my brain, the squirrels are running. And I just feel like I need to think about this for like every single person in the world. I myself, No, I do not think that religion is serving us to the highest purpose. I think that I think that how do I want to word this? We're humans. And we all are like I wrote this the other day in one of my posts that were just like all like balls of childhood trauma, just like walking around in life with these like tainted perceptions that have been delivered to us, religiously, politically, society, cultural, everything. And we carry that and then we think that we're right, and then so we take whatever scripture is. That speaks to us, or that were a part of whatever religious sect that we're a part of, or whatever. And we will sometimes use that to condone behavior or to totally alienate and discriminate behavior as well. And I you can call me maybe like a naive spiritualist. But I have used this so many times in different discussions when we have discussed things that were like push button topics like hot button topics. And I'm like, Can we all just get along? I'm like, if we were just balls of energy floating around in space or heaven, we would not be seeing all the things that we see here on this earth, we wouldn't see those things. We would just see light, and we would see energy. And it wouldn't be what we are framing everything to be around down here on Earth. Everything is framed around these different things. And we think that we're right. And I think when you think that you're right, and you don't leave any open doors to listen to other people. I think that's that is I don't I don't agree with it. I don't I don't like it. It doesn't make me feel good. And I have been in that space before Brandon Handley 49:57 you so you're saying religion is a bunch of clothes. Doors. I mean, that's what I'm hearing. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 50:04 I a bunch of closed doors. It can be, I think that it very much can be because people get very stuck. They're like, this is what it says. And I'm like, Yeah, but then you talk to someone else. Yes. Okay. And so like that has to do with us just being these balls of childhood trauma of loose like things happening. And we created these perceptions. And that's why we read it that way. Right? It doesn't make it true. It's just your truth. Brandon Handley 50:33 For sure. For sure. Not it's a course earlier this year. And terminologies was it's a truth, not the truth. Right. So the truth, of course, that Well, ladies, thank you so much. This has been a blast. I appreciate having you on today. Where can people go and find a little bit more, Tamara and Devin on the line and rise podcast? Unknown Speaker 51:03 Tomorrow, no, she can throw out? Unknown Speaker 51:08 Well, I'm waiting for you. So Unknown Speaker 51:12 I know, we kind of have everything grouped together on our Instagram page, which is a line underscore and underscore rise. And we have our podcast stuff linked there, so you can listen to us. And this is a really good reminder to me, I need to link our tic tock there because we just started some fun little tic TOCs. And our little highlight is like can we have three minutes of your time. And we just have three minute little videos on random topics that we're feeling that we just like, pour into and that is kind of like our thing. So that's where you can find this. Brandon Handley 51:51 Awesome. Awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah, I Unknown Speaker 51:56 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dough podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual dough, and Instagram at spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email through Brandon at spiritual dope CO and as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.
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Join our interprofessional panel of experts as they discuss standards of care for patients with R/R multiple myeloma (MM). Earn Credit / Learning Objectives & Disclosures: https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/962730?src=mkm_podcast_addon_962730
This week we're releasing another interview from the Micromobility America conference. Laura Bliss from Bloomberg interviews Ben Bear, CEO of Spin (and guest on MM episode 73), about where sharing is going next after a COVID 19 put the brakes on it. Spin is one of the more interesting companies with the relatively crowded shared Micromobility field being owned by Ford, and pursuing a slow and steady strategy focussed around things like charging infrastructure. It's a great discussion.Specifically they dig into: The challenges that COVID-19 has posed to the industryWhat of the big problems - regulatory, unit economics, safety - still need to be solvedWhat cities are thinking aboutTheir expansion globallyIn the meantime, thanks to the sponsor for the episode Ubiq. Ubiq is closing the gap between supply and demand. Most shared mobility businesses are not profitable, as 60%-80% of the demand is not met. Ubiq places vehicles in the right place, at the right time, to meet demand. This enables operators to increase revenue by 20% within 8 weeks while also decreasing operational costs.How? By exploiting the full potential of your fleet. StreetCrowd is enabling over 15.000 citizens across 11 cities on 2 continents to contribute to the future of shared mobility. StreetCrowd matches vehicles requiring rebalancing or charging with crowd users, allowing shared mobility providers to automate operations. In other words, mobility operators have access to scalable, decentralized operations that run 24/7, across the city.Best part? It's plug and play and you can get started right away. Get in touch to find out more! LINK: https://l.linklyhq.com/l/cxIZ
Steve McConaghie is the Vice President of Leadership and Training at MorningStar Senior Living in Denver, CO. Steve worked in non-profit for 25 years before transitioning to senior living six years ago. Steve was drawn to MorningStar by its commitment to provide outstanding care to seniors, to Honor God, and to serve the poor. MorningStar operates 30 communities and currently has 12 in development. Steve's avocation is serving the poor through short-term mission projects. Until recently, he served on the board of directors for Missions Ministries (MM). MM serves the oppressed and marginalized in Northern Mexico through housing, medical, and education support. Steve holds a B.A. in Sociology and M.A. in Business Management. Steve and his wife have been married for 21 years and have two teenagers. Outside of work, he is an elder at his church and a struggling golfer.
About AmyAmy (she/her) has spent the better part of the last 15 years in the tech start-up world, starting off as a front-end software engineer before transitioning into leadership. She has built and led teams across the software and product development spectrum, including web and mobile development, QA, operations and infrastructure, customer support, and IT.These days, Amy is building the software engineering team at EdTech startup, Unicycle, and challenging the archetype of what a tech leader should be. She strives to be a real-life success story for other leaders who believe that safe, welcoming, and equitable environments can exist in tech. Links: Unicycle: https://www.unicycle.co AmyChanta: https://twitter.com/AmyChanta TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A famous quote was once uttered by Irena Dunn who said, “A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.” Now, apparently at some point, people just, you know, looked at the fish without a bicycle thing, thought, “That was overwrought. We can do a startup and MVP it. Why do two wheels? We're going to go with one.”And I assume that's the origin story of Unicycle. My guest today is Amy Chantasirivisal who is the Director of Engineering at Unicycle. Amy, thank you for putting up with that incredibly tortured opening. But that's okay; we torture metaphors to death here.Amy: [laugh]. Thank you for having me. That was a great intro.Corey: So, you are, at the time of this recording at least, a relatively new hire to Unicycle, which to my understanding is a relatively new company. What do you folks do over there?Amy: Yes, so Unicycle is not even a year old, so a company born out of the pandemic. But we are building a product to reimagine what the digital classroom looks like. The product itself was thought up right during a time during the pandemic when it became very clear how much students and teachers are struggling with converting their experience into online platforms. And so we are trying to just bring better workflows, more efficiency into that. And right now we're starting with email, but we'll be expanding to other things in the future.Corey: I am absolutely the wrong person to ask about a lot of this stuff, just because my academic background, tortured doesn't really begin to cover it. I handle academia about as well as I handled working for other people. My academic and professional careers before I started this place were basically a patchwork of nonsense and trying to pretend I was something other than I was. You, on the other hand, have very much been someone who's legitimate as far as what you do and how you do it. Before Unicycle, you were the Director of Engineering at Wildbit, which is a name I keep hearing about and a bunch of odd places. What did you do there?Amy: [laugh]. I will have to follow up and ask what the odd places are but—so I was leading a team there of engineers that were fully distributed across the US and also in Europe. And we were building an email product called Postmark, which some of your listeners might use, and then also a couple of other smaller things like People-First Jobs and Beanstalk—not AWS's Beanstalk, but a developer repository and workflow tool.Corey: Forget my listeners for a minute; I use Postmark. That's where I keep seeing you on the invoices because it's different branding. As someone who has The Duckbill Group, but also the Last Week in AWS things, it's the brand confusion problem is very real. That does it. Sorry. Thank you for collapsing the waveform on that one. And of course, before that you were at PagerDuty, which is a company that most folks in the ops space are aware of, founded to combat the engineer's true enemy: sleep.Amy: Absolutely. It's the product that engineers love to hate, but also can't live without, to some degree. Or maybe they want to live without it, but uh… [laugh] are not able to.Corey: So, I have a standing policy on this show of not talking to folks who are not wildly over-represented—as I am—and effectively disregarding the awesome stuff that they've done professionally in favor of instead talking about, “Wow, what's it like not to be a white guy in the room? I can't even imagine such a thing. It sounds hard.” However, in your case, an awful lot of the work you have done and are most proud of centers around DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Tell me about that.Amy: Absolutely. I would say that it's the work that I've spent my time focusing on in recent years, but also that I'm still learning, right, and as someone who is Asian American, and also from a middle-class socioeconomic background, I have a bunch of privileges that I still have to unpack and that show up in the way that I work every day, as well. And so just acknowledging that, you know, while I spend a lot of time on DEI, still have just barely scratched the surface on it, really, in the grand scheme of things. But what I will say is that, you know, I've been really fortunate in my career in that I started in tech 15 or so years ago, and I started at a time when it wasn't super hard for someone who has no CS degree to actually get into some sort of coding job. And so I fell into my first role; I was building HTML and CSS landing pages for a marketing team, for an ISP that was based in San Francisco.So, I was cobbling together a bunch of technical skills, and I got better and better. And then I reached this point in my career where I didn't really have a lot of mentors, and so I was like, “I don't know what's next for me.” But then I am also frustrated that it is so hard for our team to get things done. And so I took it upon myself to figure out Scrum and project management type of stuff for my team, and then made the jump into people management from there. So, people management and leadership through project management.But when I look back on my career, I think about, “Oh, if I had a mentor, would that still have been my fate? Would I have continued down this track of becoming a very senior technical person and just doing that for my whole career?” Because letting go of the code was definitely a hard, hard thing. And I was lucky enough that I really did enjoy the people and the process side of all of this. And so [laugh] this relates to DEI in the fact that there's research and everything that backs this up, but that women and women of color generally tend to get less mentorship overall and get less actionable feedback about their job performance.And you think about how that potentially compounds over time, over the course of someone's career and that may be one of the reasons why women and people of color get pushed out of tech because they're not getting the support that they need, potentially. They're not getting feedback, they're not being advocated for in meetings, and then there's also all the stuff that you can add on around microaggressions, or just aggressions period, potentially, depending on the culture of the team that you're working on. And so all of those things compounded are the types of things that I think about now when I reflect on my own career and the types of teams that I want to be building in the future.Corey: Back when I was stumbling my way through piecing my career together. I mean, as mentioned, I don't have a degree; I don't have a high school diploma, as it turns out, and—that was a surprise when I discovered midway through my 20s that the school I had graduated from wasn't accredited—but I would tell stories, and I found ways to weasel my way through and I gave a talk right around 2015 or 2016, about, “Weasel Your Way to the Top: How to Handle a Job Interview,” and looking back, I would never give that talk again. I canceled it as soon as someone pointed out something that was only obvious in hindsight, that the talk was built out of things that had worked for me. And it's easy to sit here and say that, well, I had to work for what I have; none of this was handed to me. And there's an element of truth to that, except for the part where there was nothing fighting against me as I went.There was not this headwind of a presumed need for me to have to prove myself; I am presumed competent. I sometimes say that as a white guy in tech, my failure mode is a board seat and a book deal, and it's not that far from wrong. It takes, I guess, a lot of listening and a lot of interaction with folks from wildly different backgrounds before you start to see some of these things. It takes time. So, if you're listening to this, and you aren't necessarily convinced that this might be real or whatnot, talk less, listen more. There are a lot of stories out there in the world that I think that it's not my place to tell but listen. That's how I approach it.What's interesting about your pathway into management is it's almost the exact opposite of mine, where I was craving novelty, and okay, I wanted to try and managing a team of people. Years later, in hindsight—I'm not a good manager and I know that about myself, and I explicitly go out of my way these days to avoid managing people wherever possible, for a variety of reasons, but at the time, I didn't know. I didn't know that. I wanted to see how it went.First, I had to disabuse myself of this notion that, oh, management is a promotion. It's not. It's an orthogonal skill.Amy: Yes.Corey: The thing I really learning—management or not—now, is that the higher in the hierarchy you rise, if you want to view it that way, the less hands-on work you do, which means everything that you are responsible for that—and oh, you are responsible—isn't something you can jump in and do yourself. You can only impact the outcome via influence. And that was a hard lesson to learn.Amy: Right. And there are some schools of thought, though, where you can affect the outcome by control. And that's not what I'm about. I think I'm more aligned with what you're saying in terms of, it's really the influence and the ability to clear the way for people who are smarter than you to do the things that they need to do. Just get out of their way, and remove the roadblocks, and just help give them what they need. That's really, sort of like, my overall approach. But I know that there are some folks out there who lead the opposite way of, “It's my way, and I'm going to dictate how things should be done, and really you're here to take and follow orders.”Corey: It's always fun interviewing people to manage teams. “So, why do you want to be a manager?” It's, “Oh, I want to tell people what to do.” And I have to say that as an interviewer, there is nothing that takes the pressure off nearly as well as a perfectly wrong answer. And, yes, that at least to my world, is a perfectly wrong answer to this. There aren't that many pass-fail questions, but you can fail any question if you try hard enough.Amy: [laugh]. Oh, gosh, yeah, it's true. But also, at the same time, I would say that there are organizations that are built that way. Because—all it takes is the one person who wants to tell people what to do, and then they start a company, and then they hire other people who want to tell people what to do. And so there are ways where organizations like that exist and come into being even today, I would say.Corey: The question that I have for you about engineering leadership is, back when I was an engineer, and thinking, all right, it's time for me to go ahead and try being a manager—let's be clear, I joke about it, but the actual reason I wanted to try my hand at management was that I found people problems more interesting than computer problems at that point. I still do, but these days, especially when it comes to, you know, cloud services marketing and such, yeah, generally, the technical problems are, in fact, people problems at their core. But talking to my manager friends of how do I go and transition from being an engineer into being a manager, the universal response I got at the time was, “Ehh, I don't know.” Every person I knew who'd had made that transition was in the right place at the right time, and quote-unquote, “Got lucky.”Amy: Absolutely.Corey: And then once they had management on their resume, then they could go and transition back to being an IC and then to management again. But it's that initial breakthrough that becomes a challenge.Amy: Absolutely. And I fell into it as well. I mean, I got into it, partially for selfish reasons because I was, an IC, I was doing development work, and I was frustrated, and I had teammates who were coming to me and they were frustrated about how hard it was for us to get our work done, or the friction involved in shipping code. And so I took it upon myself to say, “I think I see a pattern about why this is happening, and so I will try to solve this problem for the team.” And so that's where the Agile and Scrum thing come in, and the project management side.And then, when I was at this company—this was One Kings Lane; this was, like, the heyday of flash sales websites and stuff like that, so it was kind of a rocket ship at that time—and because we were also growing so fast and I was interviewing folks as well, I just fell into this management role of, “Well, if I'm interviewing these people, then I guess I should be [laugh] managing them, too.” And that happens for so many people, similar stories of getting into management. And I think that's where it starts to go wrong for a lot of organizations because, like you said, it's not an up-leveling; it's a changing of your role, and it requires training and learning and figuring out how to be effective as a manager. And a lot of people just stumble their way through it and make a lot of mistakes—myself included—through that process.And that becomes really troubling knowing that you can make these really big mistakes, but these mistakes that you make don't affect just yourself. It's the careers of the people that you manage as well and sort of where they're headed in their lives. And so it's troubling to think that most leaders that are out there today have not received any sort of training on how to be a good manager and how to be effective as a manager.Corey: I would agree with that wholeheartedly. It seems that in many cases, companies take the best engineer that they have on their team and promote them to manager. It's brilliant in some respects in just how short-sighted it is. You are taking a great engineer and trading them for a junior and unproven manager, and hoping for the best. And there is no training on any of these things, at least—Amy: Right.Corey: —not the companies that I ever worked at. Of course, there are ways you can learn to be a better manager; there are people who specialize in exactly this. There are companies that do exactly this. But tech has this weird thing where it just tries to solve itself from first principles rather than believing for a minute that someone might possibly have prior experience that could be useful for these things. And—Amy: Absolutely.Corey: —that was a challenge. I had a lot of terrible managers before I entered management myself, and I figured, ah, I'll do the naive thing and I'm just going to manage based upon doing the exact opposite of what those terrible managers all did. And I got surprisingly far with it, on some level. But you don't see the whole picture when you're an individual contributor who's writing code—crappy in my case—most of the time, and then only seeing the aspects of your manager that they allow you to see. They don't share—if they're any good—the constraints that they have to deal with, that they're managing expectations around the team, conflicting priorities, strategic objectives, et cetera because it's not something that gets shown to folks. So—Amy: Absolutely.Corey: —if you bias for that, in my experience you become an empathetic manager to the people on your team, but completely ineffective at managing laterally or upwards.Amy: Mm-hm, absolutely. And you know, I'm exploring this idea of further. Being at a very small company, I think allows me to do that. And exploring this idea of, does it have to be that way? Can you be transparent about what the constraints are as a leader while still caring for your team and supporting them in the ways that they need and helping them grow their careers and just being open about one of the challenges that you have in building the company?And I don't know, I feel like I have some things to prove there, but I think it's possible to achieve some sort of balance there, something better or more beyond just what exists now of having that entire leadership layer typically be very opaque and just very unclear why certain decisions are made.Corey: The hard part that extends that these to me beyond that is it's difficult to get meaningful feedback, on some level, when you're suddenly thrust into that position. I also, in hindsight, realize that an awful lot of those terrible managers that I had weren't nearly as terrible as I thought they were. I will say that being on the other side of that divide definitely breeds empathy. Now that I'm the co-owner of The Duckbill Group, and we're building out a leadership team and the rest, hiring managers of managers is starting to be the sort of thing that I have to think about.It's effectively, how do I avoid inadvertently doing end-runs around people? And oh, I'm just going to completely undermine a manager by reaching out to one of their team and retasking them on something because obviously whatever I have in mind is much more important. What could they possibly be working on that's better than the Twitter shitpost I'm borrowing them to help out with? Yeah, you learn a lot by getting it wrong, and there becomes a power imbalance that even if you try your best to ignore it—which you should not—I assure you, the person who has less power in that relationship cannot set that aside. Even when I have worked with people I consider close friends, that friendship gained some distance during the duration of their employment because there has to be that professional level of separation. It's a hard thing to learn.Amy: It's a very hard line to walk in terms of recognizing the power that you have over someone's career and the power over, you know, making decisions for them and for the team and for the company, and still being empathetic towards their personal needs. And if they're going through a tough time, but then you also know from a business perspective that X, Y, or Z needs to happen, and how do you push but not push too hard, and try to balance needs of people who are humans and have things that happen and go on sometimes, and the fact that we work in a capitalist society and we still need to make money to make the business run. And that's definitely one of the hardest things to learn, and I am still learning. I definitely don't have that figured out, but I err on the side of, let's listen to what people are saying because ultimately, I'm not going to be the one to write the code. I haven't done that in years, and also I would probably suck at it now. And so it behooves leaders to listen to the people who were doing the work and to try, to the best of their abilities in whatever role whether that's exec-level leadership or mid-level… sort of like, middle management type of stuff to do what is in your power to help set them up to succeed.Corey: I want to get back a little bit to the idea of building diverse teams. It's something that you spend an inordinate amount of time and effort on. I do too. It's one of those areas where it's almost fraught to talk about it because I don't want to sound like I'm breaking my arm by patting myself on the back here. I certainly have a hell of a lot to learn, and mostly—and I'm ashamed to admit this—I very often learn only by really putting my foot in it sometimes. And it's painful, but that is, I think, a necessary prerequisite for growth. From your perspective, what is the most challenging part of building diverse teams?Amy: I think it's that piece that you said of making the mistakes or just putting yourself in a position where you are going to be uncomfortable. And I think that a lot of organizations that I've been in talk about DEI on a very surface level in terms of, “Oh, well, you know, we want to have more candidates from diverse backgrounds in our pipelines for hiring,” and things like that. But then not really just thinking about, but how do we work as a team in a way that potentially makes retention of those folks a lot harder? And for myself, I would say that when I was earlier on in all of this in my learning, I would say that I was able to kickstart my learning by thinking about my own identity, the fact that I was often the only Asian person on my team, the only woman on my team, and then more recently, the only mom on my team. And that has happened to me so many times in my career. More often than not.And so being able to draw on those experiences and those feelings of oh, okay, no one wants to hear about my kid because everyone else is, you know, busy going out to drink or something on the weekends. And like that feeling of, you know, that not belonging, and feeling of feeling excluded from things, and then thinking about how then this might manifest for folks with different identities for myself. And then going there and learning about it, listening, doing more listening than talking, and yeah, and that's, that's really just been the hardest part of just removing myself from that equation and just listening to the experiences of other people. And it's uncomfortable. And I think a lot of people are—you have to be in the right mindset, I guess, to be uncomfortable; you have to be willing to accept that you will be uncomfortable. And I think a lot of folks maybe are not ready to do that on a personal level.Corey: The thing that galls me the most is I do try on these things, and I get it wrong a fair bit. And my mistakes I find personally embarrassing, and I strive not to repeat them. But then I look around the industry—and let's be clear, a lot of this is filtered through the unhealthy amount of time I spend on Twitter—but it seems that I'm trying and I'm failing and attempting to do better as I go, and then I see people who are just, “Nope. Not at all. In fact, we're not just going to lean into bias, we're going to build a startup around it.”And I look at this and it's at some level hard to reconcile the fact that… at first, that I'm doing badly at all, which is the easy cop-out of, “Oh, well, if that is considered acceptable on some level, then I certainly don't even have to try,” which I think is a fallacy. But further it's—I have to step beyond myself on that and just, I cannot fathom how discouraging that must be, particularly to people who are early in their careers because it looks like it's just a normal thing that everyone thinks and does that just someone got a little too loud with it. And it's abhorrent. And if people are listening to this and thinking that is somehow just entrenched, and normalized, and everyone secretly thinks that… no. I assure you it is not something that is acceptable, even in the quote-unquote, “Private white dude who started companies” gathering holes. Yeah, people articulating sentiments like that suddenly find themselves not welcome there anymore, at least in every one of those types of environments I've ever found myself in.Amy: Yeah, the landscape is shifting. It's slow, but it is shifting. And, myself on Twitter, like, I do a lot of rant-y stuff too sometimes, but despite all of that, I feel like I am ultimately an optimist because I have to be. Otherwise, I would have left tech already because every time I am faced with a job search for myself, I'm like, “Should I—is this it? Am I done in tech? Do I want to go do something else? Am I going to finally go open that bakery that I've always wanted to open?” [laugh].And so… I have to be an optimist. And I see that—even in the most recent job search I've done—have seen so many new founders and new CEOs, really, with this mindset of, “We want to build a diverse team, but we're also doing it—and we're using diversity as a foundation for what we want to build; it's part of our decision-making process and this is how we're going to hold ourselves accountable to it.” And so it is shifting, and while there are those bad actors out there still, I'm seeing a lot of good in the industry now. And so that's why I stick around; that's why I'm still here.Corey: I want to actually call something out as concrete here because it's easy for me to fall into the trope of just saying vague things. I'll be specific about something, give us a good example. We've done a decent job, I think, of hiring a diverse team, but—and this is a problem that I see spread across an awful lot of companies—as you look at the leadership team, it gets a lot wider and a lot more male. And that is an inherent challenge. In our particular case, my business partner is someone who I've been close friends with for a decade.I would not be able to start a business with someone I didn't have that kind of relationship with just because your values have to be aligned or there's trouble down the road. And beyond that, it winds up rapidly, on some level, turning into what appears to be a selection bias. When you're trying to hire senior leaders, for example, there's a prerequisite to being a senior leader, which is embodied in the word senior, which implies tenure of having spent a fair bit of time in an industry that is remarkably unfriendly in a lot of different ways to a lot of different people. So, there's a prerequisite of being willing to tolerate the shit for as long as it takes to get to that level of seniority, rather than realizing at any point as any of us can, there are easier jobs that don't have this toxicity inherent to them and I'll go do that instead. So, there's a tenure question; there's a survivorship bias question.And I don't have the answers to any of this, but it's something that I'm seeing, and it's one of those once you see it, you can't unsee it any more moments. At least for me.Amy: Yeah, absolutely.Corey: Please tell me I'm not the only person who see [laugh]—who is encountering these problems. Like, “Wow, you just sound terrible.” Which might very well be a fair rejoinder here. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how to think about this properly.Amy: Yeah. I mean, this is why I was saying that I am very optimistic about [laugh] new companies that are coming—like, up-and-coming these days, new startups, primarily, because you're right that a lot of people just end up quitting tech before they get to that point of experience and seniority, to get into leadership. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of bias and discrimination that happens at those leadership levels, too, but I will say that, you know, it's both of those things. There are also more things on top of that. But this is why I'm like, so excited to see people from diverse backgrounds as founders of new companies and why I think that being able to be in a position to potentially either help fund, or advocate, or sponsor, or amplify those types of orgs, I think is where the future is that because ultimately, I think a lot of the established companies that are out there these days, it's going to be really hard for them to walk back on what their leadership team looks like now, especially if it is a sizable leadership team and they're all white men.Corey: Yeah. I'm going to choose to believe we say sizable leadership team that it's also not—we're talking about the horizontal scaling that happens to some of us, especially during a pandemic as we continue to grow into our seats. You're right, it's a problem as well, where you can cut a bit of slack in some cases to small teams. It's, “Okay, we don't have any Black employees, but we're three people,” is a lot more understandable-slash-relatable than, “We haven't hired any Black people yet and we're 3000 people.” One of those is acceptable—or at least understandable, if not acceptable—the other is just completely egregious.Amy: Yes. And I think then the question that you have to ask if you're looking at, you know, a three-person company, or [laugh] I guess, like in my case, I was looking at the seven-person company, is that, “Okay. There are currently no Black people on your team. And why is that?” And then, “What are you doing to change that? And how are you going to make sure that you're holding ourselves accountable to it?”Because I think it's easy to say, “Oh, you know, the first couple of hires were people we just worked with in the past, and they just happened to, you know, look like us and whatnot.” And then you blink becau—and you do that a handful of times, and you blink, and then suddenly you have a team of 25 and there are no people of color on your team. And maybe you have, like, one woman on the team or something. And you're like, “Huh. That's strange. I guess we should think about this and figure out what we can do.”And then I think what ends up happening at that point is that there are so many already established behaviors, and cultural norms, and things like that, that have organically grown within a team that are potentially not welcoming towards people from different backgrounds who have different backgrounds. So, you go and attempt to hire someone who is different, and they come in, and they're just sort of like, “This is how you work? I don't feel like I belong here.” And then they don't stay, and then they leave. And then people sit there and scratch their heads like, “Oh, what did we do wrong?” And, “I don't get it.”And so there's this conversation, I think, in the industry of like, “Oh, it's a pipeline problem, and if we were just able to hire a lot of people from diverse backgrounds, the problem is solved.” Which really isn't the case because once people are there and at your company, are they getting promoted at the same rate as white men? Are they staying with the company for as long? And who's in leadership? And how are you working to break down the biases that you may have?All those sorts of things, I think, generally are not considered as part of all of this DEI work. Especially when, in my experience in startups, the operational side of all that is so immature a lot of the times, just not well developed that deeper thought process and reflection doesn't really happen.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by something new. Cloud Academy is a training platform built on two primary goals. Having the highest quality content in tech and cloud skills, and building a good community the is rich and full of IT and engineering professionals. You wouldn't think those things go together, but sometimes they do. Its both useful for individuals and large enterprises, but here's what makes it new. I don't use that term lightly. Cloud Academy invites you to showcase just how good your AWS skills are. For the next four weeks you'll have a chance to prove yourself. Compete in four unique lab challenges, where they'll be awarding more than $2000 in cash and prizes. I'm not kidding, first place is a thousand bucks. Pre-register for the first challenge now, one that I picked out myself on Amazon SNS image resizing, by visiting cloudacademy.com/corey. C-O-R-E-Y. That's cloudacademy.com/corey. We're gonna have some fun with this one!Corey: I do my best to have these conversations in public as frequently as is practical for me to do, just because I admit, I get things wrong. I say things that are wrong and I'm doing a fair bit of learning in public around an awful lot of that. Because frankly, I can withstand the heat, if it comes down to someone on Twitter gets incredibly incensed by something I've said on this podcast, for example. Because it isn't coming from a place of ill intent when someone accuses me of being ableist or expressing bias. My response is generally to suppress the initial instinctive flash of defensiveness and listen and ask.And that is, even if I don't necessarily agree with what they're saying after reflection, I have to appreciate on some level the risk-taking inherent in calling someone out who is in my position where, if I were a trash fire, I could use the platform to turn it into, “All right. Now, let's go hound the person that called me out.” No. I don't do that, full stop. If I'm going to harass people, it's going to be—not people, despite what the Supreme Court might tell us—but it's going to be a $2 trillion company—one in particular—because that's who I am and that's how I roll.Whenever I get a DM—which I leave open because I have the privilege to do that—from folks who are early career who are not wildly over-represented, I just have to stop and marvel for a minute at the level of risk-taking inherent to that because there is risk to that. For me, when I DM people, the only risk I feel like I'm running at any given point is, “Are they going to think that I'm bothering them? Oh, the hell with it. I'm adorable. They'll love me.” And the fact that I'm usually right is completely irrelevant to that. There's just that sense of I don't really risk a damn thing in the grand scheme of things compared to the risk that many people are taking just living who they are.Amy: Yeah. And someone DMs you and you suppress that initial sort of defensiveness: I would say that that is an underrated skill. [laugh].Corey: Well, a DM is a privilege, too. A call in—Amy: Yes.Corey: —is deeply appreciated; no one owes it to me. I often will get people calling me out on Twitter and I generally stop and think about that; I have a very close circle of friends who I trust to be objective on these things, and I'll ask them, “Did I get this wrong?” And very often the answer is yes. And, “Well, I thought the joke was funny and I spent time building it.” “Yeah, but if people hear a joke I'm making and feel bad about it, then is it really that good of a joke or should I try harder?” It's a process, and I look back at who I was ten years ago and I feel a sense of shame. And I believe that if anyone these days doesn't, either they were effectively a saint, or they haven't grown.Amy: Yes.Corey: And that's my personal philosophy on this stuff, anyway.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And that growth is so important. And part of that growth really is being able to suppress your desire to make it about you, [laugh] right? That initial, “Oh, I did something bad,” or, “I'm a horrible person because I said this thing,” right? It's not about you, there's, like, the impact that you had on someone else.And I've been giving this some thought recently, and I—you know, I also similarly have a group of trusted friends who I often talk about these things with, and you know, we always kind of check ourselves in terms of, did we mess something up? Did we, you know, put our foot in our mouths? Stuff like that. And think what it really comes down to is being able to say, “Maybe I did something wrong and I need to suppress that desire to become defensive and put up walls and guard and protect myself from feeling vulnerable, in order to actually learn and grow from this experience.”Corey: It's hard to do, but it's required because I—Amy: Extremely, yes.Corey: —used to worry about, “Ohh, what if I get quote-unquote, ‘canceled?'” well, I've done a little digging into this and every notable instance of this I can find is when someone is called out for something crappy, they get defensive, and they double-down and triple-down and quadruple-down, and they keep digging a hole nice and deep to the point where no one with a soul can really be on their side of this issue, and now they have a problem. I have never gotten to that point because let's be honest with you, there are remarkably few things I care that passionately about that I'm going to pick those fights publicly. The ones that I do, I am very much on the other side [laugh] of those issues. That has not been a realistic concern.I used to warn every person here before I hired them—to get this back to engineering management—that there was a risk that I could have a bad tweet and we don't have a company anymore. I don't give that warning anymore because I no longer believe that it's true.Amy: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. I also wonder about, in general, because of the world that we live in, and our history with white supremacy and oppression and all those things, I also wonder if this skill of being able to self-reflect and be uncomfortable and manage your own reaction and your emotions, I wonder if that's just a thing that white people generally haven't had a lot of practice for because of the inherent privileges that are afforded to white people. I wonder if a lot of this just stems from the fact that white people get to navigate this world and not get called out, and thus don't have this opportunity to exercise this skill of holding on to that and listening more than talking.Corey: Absolutely agree. And it gets piled on by a lot of folks, for example—I'll continue to use myself as an example in this case—I live in San Francisco. I would argue that I'm probably not, “In tech,” quote-unquote, the way that I once was, but I'm close enough that there's no discernible difference. And my social circle is as well. Back before I entered tech, I did a bunch of interesting jobs, telemarketing to pay the bills, I was a recruiter for a while, I worked construction a couple of summers.These days, everyone that I engage with for meaningful periods of time is more or less fairly tech adjacent. It really turns into a one-sided perspective. And I can sit here and talk about what folks who are not living in the tech bubble should be doing or how they should think about this, but it's incredibly condescending, it's incredibly short-sighted, and fails to appreciate a very different lived experience. And I can remind myself of this now, but that lack of diversity and experience is absolutely something where it feels like the tech bubble, especially for those folks in this bubble who look a lot like me, it is easy to fall into a pattern of viewing ourselves as the modern aristocracy where we deserve the nice things that we have, and the rest. And that's a toxic pattern. It takes vigilance to avoid it. I'm not saying I get it right all the time, by a landslide, but ugh, the perils of not doing that are awful.Amy: Agreed. And it shows up, you know, getting back to the engineering manager and leadership and org building piece of things, that shows up even in the way that we talk about career development and career ladders, for those of us in tech, and software engineering specifically for me, where we've kind of like come up with all these matrices of job levels, and competencies, all that, and humans just are so vastly different. Every person is an individual, and yet we talked about career ladders and how to advance your career in this two-dimensional matrix. And, like, how does that actually work, right?And I've seen some good career ladders that account for a larger variety of competencies than just, “Can you code?” And, “What are your system design skills?” And, “Do you understand distributed systems?” And so on and so forth, but I think a lot gets left behind and gets left on the table when it comes to thinking about the fact that when you get a group of people together working on some sort of common cause or a product, that there's so much more to the dynamic than just the writing of the code. It's how do you work with each other? How do you support each other? How do you communicate with each other? And then all my glue work—that is what I call it—like, the glue work that goes into a successful team and building products, a lot of that is just not captured in the way that we talk about career development for folks. And it's just incredibly two-dimensional, I think.Corey: One last question that I have for you before we wrap the episode here is, you spend a lot of time focusing on this, and I have some answers, but I'm very interested to hear yours instead because I assure you, the world hears enough from me and people who look like me, what is the biggest mistake that you see companies making in their attempts to build diverse teams?Amy: I would say that there's two major things. One is that there have been a lot of orgs in my own past that think about diversity, equity, inclusion as a program and not a mindset that everyone should be embracing. And that manifests itself into, sort of like, this secondary problem of stopping at the D part of D, E, and I. That's the whole, “We're going to hire a bunch of people from different backgrounds and then just we're going to stop with that because we've solved the problem.” But by not adopting that mindset of the equity, the inclusion, and also the welcoming and the belonging piece of things internally, then anyone that you hire who comes in from those marginalized or minority backgrounds is not going to want to stay long-term because they don't feel like they fit in, they don't feel like they belong.And so, it becomes this revolving door of you hire in people and then those people leave after some amount of time because they're not getting what they need out of either the role or for themselves personally in terms of just emotional support, even. And so I would say that's the problem that I see is not a numbers game—although the metrics and the numbers help hold you accountable—but the metrics and the numbers are not the end goal. The end goal is really around the mindset that you have in building the org and the way that people behave. And the way that you work together is really core to that.Corey: What I tend to see on the other side is the early intake funnels. People will reach out to me sometimes, “Hey, do you know any diverse speakers we can hire to do a speaking engagement here?” It doesn't… work that way. There's a lot more to it than that. It is not about finding people who check boxes, it is not about quote-unquote, “Diversity hires.”It's about—at least in my experience—structuring job ads, for example, in ways that are not coded—unconsciously in most cases, but ehh—that are going to resonate towards folks who are in certain cultures and not in others. It's about being more equitable. It's about understanding that not everyone is going to come across in a job interview as the most confident person in the room. Part of the talk that I gave on how to handle job interviews, there was a strong section in it on salary negotiation. Well, turns out when I do it, I'm an aggressive hard-charger and they like that, whereas if someone who is not male does that, well, in that case, they look like they're being difficult and argumentative and pushy and rising above their station. It was awful.One of the topics I'm most proud of was the redone version of that talk that I gave with a friend, Sonia Gupta, who has since left tech because of how shitty it is, and that was a much better talk. She was a former attorney who had spent time negotiating in much higher-stakes situations.Amy: Yeah.Corey: And it was terrific to see during the deconstruction and rebuilding of that talk, just how much of my own unconscious bias had crept in. It's, again, I look back at the early version of those talks and I'm honestly ashamed. It wasn't from ill will, but it's always impact over intent as far as how this has potentially made things worse. It's, if nothing else, if I don't say the right things when I should speak up, that's not great, but I always prefer that to saying things that are actively harmful. So—Amy: Absolutely.Corey: —it's hard. I deserve no sympathy for this, to be clear. It is incumbent upon all of us because again, as mentioned, my failure mode is a non-issue in the world compared to the failure mode for folks for against whom the deck has been stacked unfairly for a very long time. At least, that's how I see it.Amy: Right. And that's why I think that it's important for folks who are in positions of power to really reflect on—even operationally, right, you were mentioning your job ads, and how to structure that to include more inclusive language, and just doing that for everything, really, in the way that you work. How do decisions get made? And by whom? And why? How do you structure things like compensation? Even, like, how do you do project planning, right?Even in my own reflections, now when I think back towards Scrum and Agile and all of that, I think that the base foundation of all of that was like was good, but then ultimately the implementation of how that works at most companies is problematic in a lot of ways as well. And then to just be able to reflect and really think about all of your processes or policies—all of that—and bring that lens of equity, really, equity and inclusion to those things, and to really dig deep and think about how those things might manifest and affect people from different backgrounds in different ways.Corey: So, before we wrap, something that I think you… are something of an empathetic party on is when I see companies in the space who are doing significant DE&I initiatives, it seems like it's all flash; it feels like it's all sizzle, no steak to appropriate a phrase from the country of Texas. Is that something that you see, too?Amy: I do think that it is pretty common, and I think it's because that's… that's the easy route. That's the easy way to do it because the vanity metrics, and the photo of the team that is so diverse, and all these things that show up on a marketing website. I mean, there—it's, like, a signal for someone, potentially, who might be considering a job at your company, but ultimately the hard work that I feel like is not happening is really in that whole reflecting on the way you do business, reflecting on the way that you work. That is the hard work and it requires a leadership team to prioritize it, and to make time for it, and to make it really a core principle of the way that you build an org., and it doesn't happen enough, by far, in my opinion.Corey: It feels like it's an old trope of the company that makes a $100,000 donation and then spends $10 million dollars telling the world about it, on some level. It's about, “Oh, look at us, we're doing good things,” as opposed to buckling down and doing the work. Then the actual work falls to folks who are themselves not overrepresented as unpaid emotional labor, and then when the company still struggles with diversity issues, those people catch the blame. It's frustrating.Amy: Yeah. And as an organization, if you have the money to donate somewhere, that's great, but it can't just stop at that. And a lot of companies will just stop at that because it's the optics of, “Oh, well, we spent x millions of dollars and we've helped out this nonprofit or this charity or whatnot.” Which is great that you're able to do that, but that can't be it because then ultimately, what you have internally and within your own company doesn't improve for people from those backgrounds.Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time to chat with me about these things. Some of these topics are challenging to talk about and finding the right forum can be difficult, and I'm just deeply appreciative that you were able to clear enough time to have that chat with me today.Amy: Yeah, thank you for having me. I mean, I think it's important for us to recognize, even between the two of us that, I mean, obviously, you as a white man have benefited a lot in this space, and then even myself as, you know, that model minority whole thing, but growing up very adjacent to white people and just being ingrained in that culture and raised in that culture, you know, that we have those privileges and there's still parts of the conversation, I think, that are not captured by [laugh] by the two of us are the nuances as well, and so just recognizing that. And it's just a learning process. And I think that everyone could benefit from just realizing that you'll never know everything. And there's always going to be something to learn in all of this. And yes, it is hard, but it's something that is worthwhile to strive for.Corey: Most things worthwhile are. If people want to learn more about who you are, how you think about these things, potentially consider working with you, et cetera. Where can they find you?Amy: So, I am on Twitter. I am the queen of very, very long threads, I should just start a blog or something, but I have not. But in any case, I'm on Twitter. I am AmyChanta, so @A-M-Y-C-H-A-N-T-A.Our website is unicycle.co, if you're thinking about applying for a role, and working with me, that would be awesome. Or just, you know, reach out. I'd also just love to network with anyone, even if there's not an open position now. I just, you know, build that relationship and maybe there will be in the future. Or if not at Unicycle, then somewhere else.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:48:13]. Thank you so much, once again. I appreciate your time.Amy: Thanks for having me.Corey: Amy Chantasirivisal, Director of Engineering at Unicycle. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment pointing out that it's not about making an MVP of a bicycle that turns into a unicycle so much as it is work-life balance.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.
Kat Reinhert is an accomplished songwriter, vocalist, musician, author and educator. As a solo artist, Kat has released five independent albums and sung on multiple projects and recordings for noted artists. She is the former Director of Contemporary Voice at The University of Miami, Frost School of Music and is a sought-after clinician, speaker and researcher. Ms. Reinhert holds a BM in Jazz/Commercial Voice, an MM in Jazz Pedagogy, and a PhD in Music Education, specializing in Popular Music Performance and Pedagogy. Kat has authored several book chapters and journal articles on contemporary voice and songwriting and is the immediate past president of The Association for Popular Music Education. Along with Sarah Gulish, she is the co-founder of Songwriting for Music Educators™, dedicated to helping music educators learn the craft of songwriting. Ms. Reinhert is currently an adjunct professor at Rider University and she resides in New York City where she continues work on artistic, songwriting, educational, business, consulting and writing projects. Kat's Website Book: Action-based Approaches in Popular Music Education: Purchase at F-Flat Books or Amazon Singing in Popular Musics Lee Higgin's Community Music Afternoon Ti Follow me on Instagram: @highafternoonti Blog Have you purchased the Afternoon Ti Book and Journal?! Get them at Amazon or F-Flat books now. Intro/Outro Music: Our Big Adventure by Scott Holmes
Follow the speakers we mentioned!David Sherry: https://twitter.com/_brandswellItamar Marani: https://twitter.com/itamarmaraniColleen Schnettler 0:00 Every doctor is concerned about your vital signs, but a good doctor cares about your overall health. Your website deserves the same care, and Hey Check It is here to help- Hey Check It is a website performance monitoring and optimization tool- Goes beyond just core web vitals to give you a full picture on how to optimize your website to give your users an optimal, happy experience- Includes AI-generated SEO data, accessibility scanning and site speed checks with suggestions on how to optimize, spelling and grammar checking, custom sitemaps, and a number of various tools to help youStart a free trial today at heycheckit.comAUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT Michele Hansen 0:35 Hey, Colleen.Colleen Schnettler 0:37 Good morning, Michelle.Michele Hansen 0:39 It's so nice to see your face again, after seeing it in person. Last off at founder Summit.Colleen Schnettler 0:45 I know that was such a wonderful trip. And just amazing that we got to spend that time together.Michele Hansen 0:51 I keep thinking about how awesome it was like, I feel like they've set the bar really, really high for conferences in general as but especially post COVID.Colleen Schnettler 1:04 Yeah, I also think I will be impressed if they can replicate that experience next year, because everyone I know now wants to go. And I think part of what made that conference so special was that there were it was capped at 150 people. And I'm sure they're gonna get a flood of applicants to go next year. So I don't know what they're going to do how they're going to handle that.Michele Hansen 1:28 Yeah, actually, so Tyler tweet that he was like, oh, like, what if we did this in other cities? Oh, like to a year? Yeah. And I was like, Oh, that would be really cool. Yeah, good. Maybe we should talk about like, what made it so awesome. And like, kind of what are like, what are takeaways from it?Colleen Schnettler 1:44 Oh, yeah, girl, I have so many takeaways, all the takeaways. Okay. What were what? What would you lead with? What made it so special for you? Besides me? Of course. It's too easy.Michele Hansen 2:01 You know, so I mean, yeah, this is really hard thing to like, summarize. So I think it was, I mean, it was just so nice being in the same place with other people who are doing the same thing. You know, I think we've talked about how, you know, we initially connected one of the reasons was like, You're the only person I knew in my regular everyday life, who also did this, like weird internet business thing. And there's just like, aren't that many people in this world doing that. So it's just like, so nice to be around other people who are doing this. And you're not only not only do you feel normal, but like, it's such a good environment for like, throwing around ideas. And like, there was at one point when we were talking about, like, multiples for SaaS companies like making a couple $1,000 a month at one point, like on a on the bus to do the hot air balloon ride over to t Wuhan like, and I hope I'm pronouncing that right. I'm practicing so much. And we're like, you know what, we should just like, ask the bus, like this bus full of people would know the answer to this question and have a perspective on this. And like, and so that was really, really awesome. And I feel like there's so many people who introduce themselves. And then and then we like, you know, I'm so and so Oh, and I'm so and so on Twitter, and I'm like, oh my god, like, I've been tweeting with you for the past, you know, like, couple of years, and I finally meeting you in person. And. And so that was really awesome. And I mean, just getting so many ideas going about things. And also, you know, we had talked on our meta episode about how I want to talk more about negotiation, because that's something I do a lot of, and sales, but don't really talk about. And then a speaker was sick on the second day, and Tyler was like, Hey, can anybody give a talk this afternoon? And like, fill the spot and I was like, Yep, alright, I can do negotiation, talk and workshop. And, and, you know, just kind of kind of jumped at it. And it was, it was super fun. And I think I think the big thing I'm really thinking about that, you know, that activity did was like the, the, the, like the wheel where you had to, like rate different areas over your life from like, one to 10 like how they're going. So there was I think it was like occupational fulfillments like one to 10 which is work, right work. Yep. spiritual, emotional, environmental. Physical. Did I already say social? I don't think so. Social. Yeah, there was like five or six different things. Yeah, that'sColleen Schnettler 4:49 six. Um,Michele Hansen 4:52 and I think we both had really interesting results from that. Like they're very different like ours were like, Oh, yes, opposite one. And yeah, and really thinking about how like, you know, I like I gave like physical health like a one on that, right. And the goal of this activity was, you know, you give each area a score of one to 10. And then you set a goal of getting up to spots in the next 90 days. So not going from one to 10, which is often how I two things, just like totally like, balls to the wall focusing on something. But going, you know, from like, one to three, and so it's like, how can you have a plan to go from one to three or three to five? Or, or what have you in the next 90 days. And I remember you saying, when I was writing the book, you were like, Dude, you're like, moving so fast, like you're gonna run headfirst into a wall. And I did, and I haven't talked about that too much, but kind of like privately, I've talked to some people who definitely had this had a similar feeling after launching things. Yeah. Um, and yeah, just really, really thinking. I mean, like, literally even like today, like I got hiccups. 30 seconds before we got on recording, and I was doing literally everything I could to get them to go away, rather than being like, hey, maybe let's record another day instead, right? Like I make work happen no matter what. Even if it's at the the sacrifice of my physical health. And so I think that's something you know, I really need to focus on and I think, something Natalie from wild bit said on stage was like, you know, if the founder isn't happy, if the founder isn't healthy, then the company can't flourish. And so I think that's, that's, I mean, that's something I really, really need to work on. And it's like, kind of like work related, but it's like, it's not, but it also like it is in every sense of the word. So I think that's kind of been a thing I'm thinking about, but I don't I still don't really know exactly where I go with that.Colleen Schnettler 7:07 Like actionable steps. That's what you're still trying to figure out. Because if you want a warning, pretty bad, soMichele Hansen 7:12 yeah, it is. Yeah. I mean, I did order atomic habits, which is like one of those books that like I've never read before, never read a tie. No, it's like one of those books. I feel like that. And like Ray Dalio, his book, or like, books that everybody around me read and like, told me about, and I read about, so I felt like I read them. But I didn't, you know, like, I just didn't feel like I needed to, because it just everybody read it. And I'm like, No, I should probably like, sit down and think about like, not doing a whole scale turnaround, which is like, normally how I approach anything, and it's like, just just just way over the top. Yeah, um, but how, you know, how can I make small changes so that I don't get exhausted and like, move on to something else? And then then, which then exhaust me and then move on to something else? Like, it's, I see a pattern here. So, um, yeah, and I think I also thought, you know, a lot of people, even if they were in different groups really struggling with the idea of like, work life balance, and how do you, you know, how do you make it so that work doesn't become too much of your identity? And how, when when you really love what you do, like, it's really hard to pull yourself away from it, too,Colleen Schnettler 8:28 right? Yeah.Michele Hansen 8:32 I don't know. So I don't really have like, I'm just kind of all that's just still really marinating in my head. But it really, really got me going. And I think I really, really needed that push to like, um, I don't know, like, I guess like, prioritize my myself a bit.Colleen Schnettler 8:52 Sounds great. I mean, it sounds like that. It's funny sometimes to how you you've probably heard that from me or your spouse or your other friends. But there was something about the environment where everyone was sharing and being open and vulnerable in that big group that I felt really helped some of those points hit home because you saw so many people in the same situation you were in.Michele Hansen 9:13 Mm hm. And I mean, you're so like, you were totally opposite because oh, I have like a 10 for occupational like I feel like you know, for me, like this is exactly where I want to be like, last week I spoken in Mexico City twice. This week I spoke in Copenhagen I'm you know, like, like, this is just sort of in like the business is good. Like everything is really good there. But like you for occupational like I think you had like a 10 or a nine for physical health. But then you are much lower on occupational and that was the group that you were in.Colleen Schnettler 9:49 Absolutely. Yep. I think something you mentioned to me, which I think is true and was kind of cemented meeting so many founders is like I'm pretty good at taking care of myself socially. mentally, physically, I prioritize that. And so yeah, all that stuff was good for me. But yeah, my occupational score was lower. So my goal is to get that score, what do you say to two or three in the next 90 days?Michele Hansen 10:17 I'm just curious, what did you give yourself for occupational,Colleen Schnettler 10:20 I honestly don't remember probably like a seven. I love what I do. So I don't think I mean, I think if I was still working a full time job that I didn't enjoy, it would have been much lower. I love what I do with occupational in terms of like my job. So it was still a high score. But I think I what I really took away from the conferences is I was challenged in a way I haven't been challenged in a long time. And by that, I have a lot going on as to you as everyone. And I'm doing really, really well one of the executive coaches there who I was talking with, she described it as an avalanche of abundance, which is like a great problem to have, right? Like, I'm not gonna complain about it. It's an amazing problem to have. And I have all the things and I'm very happy. But I think I haven't really pushed it all on the business stuff. I've just kind of been resting, but I'm not tired. I'm ready to push. Does that make any sense? I guess what I'm trying to say is, I could be trying a lot harder. That's it. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I think so I think that I'm not really trying. And I'm telling myself, I'm trying, but I'm not. So I'm going to start trying.Michele Hansen 11:40 So what is trying look like to you. There's a couple of really specific things. IColleen Schnettler 11:45 think there's a lot of personal stuff wrapped up in here too. Like something I took away was like identity. For example, I have this, this interesting. You and Rosie talked about identity on the podcast. Mine's a little different in that my children get out of school 230 In the afternoon, I thought I was going to try you know, I'll pick them up at 230 will come home and they'll do their homework. And I'll continue to work. And that that set up like from a very practical perspective, like what can I practically do in the next 90 days, that setup is not working because I hate stopping work at 2pm in the afternoon. Like that's just, you know, you're in the middle of something, I pick them up, and they need to be supervised, like they can't just be free. We don't have a backyard here. So they need to be supervised wherever they are. We live in California, so I want them to be outside. So it wasn't that I was picking them up and having super quality time with them. It was I was picking them up. We were going to the playground and I was just hanging out of the playground. Mm hmm. Like, very practically speaking. So practically speaking, that doesn't have to be me, that can be another person doing that. And so I can get more of a deep work in my work day. And so I hired after school childcare, I found a nanny. She's lovely. She's already started on Monday, and this week has been really great.Michele Hansen 13:04 Oh my god. Amazing. Yeah,Colleen Schnettler 13:06 it's like, it's amazing. And the thing is, I you know, I was really worried about upsetting the balance of my happy family life, children marriage with working more. But that's a fake fear. Because, first of all, if if something starts to get gnarly, and I start to upset the balance, I can always change what I'm doing. And second of all, the kids are at the age, as I said, where they just want to play in the playground. They're not we're not like having some amazing bonding experience after school, or give them a snack, we go to the playground.Michele Hansen 13:38 Does anyone have amazing bonding experiences after school? Like our like, our daughter gets home and she's just so tired. Like that, even like playing a board game is like, Yeah, butColleen Schnettler 13:49 just want to do they? I mean, my kids just want to play with their friends, right? Yeah, I want to do their thing. So. So the two very actionable things, I feel like I'm ready to push again, I think when I was learning to code, building up my kind of reputation as a Rails developer, you and I talked a little bit about this offline. Like, I worked all the time, and it was hard. And then I rested for like four years, like I just it was it was worth it that year to however it was probably two years of like, really intense work was worth it to have the four or five years of just getting paid a lot of money and doing good work, but like mostly being chill. And I feel like I'm ready to push again, is what I'm trying to say with all these words. And to do that, I see that as working. You know, I'm at my desk seven early, like I get here early. So working a long day, and then I'm picking two nights a week to work and I'm going to set those up with my spouse beforehand. So there's no there's no bitterness, or upsetness. Or I'm like, Oh, I got to work tonight. Oh, I got to work tonight. And he wants to hang out. So we've set aside two nights a week I'm going to work and we're going to do this for a month or two and see, see if I can move the needle on things. Just kind of like test it out. Yeah, right. Right. I mean, it's my life. I can Do whatever I want. So I'm going to try it out. I'm going to try I think I've been scared to try. That's the truth. I've been scared to try. Why have I been scared to try? I'm not quite sure. But it doesn't matter. That's what I've, so I'm going to change that up. And commit to working more. That's my goal.Michele Hansen 15:19 Feel like one of the talks that you I think you may be said was the best one that I actually missed? was one on fear.Colleen Schnettler 15:29 Right? Love this one. Do that a little bit? Yes, I'd love to. Okay, so this is a tomorrow's talk. Yeah, he is an executive coach. And he talked about so and I don't like personal development, like, I don't read self help books. Like I kind of roll my eyes at that whole area of study. So I just we'reMichele Hansen 15:53 so opposite. Like, I have like piles of like, books on on your, you're talking to the person with piles of books on like, empathy and boundaries. And like, all these kinds ofColleen Schnettler 16:08 read that I read your book, because I love you. But generally speaking, that's not my jam. So, so I went into this talk with low expectations, not that I thought he would be, you know, not a good speaker, but just like, Okay, I'm not gonna get anything out of this. And, you know, he talked about fear, which everyone talks about, but I thought he was gonna get up there and say, Oh, you have a fear of failure. Yeah, everyone has a fear of failure. We get it. That is not what he said. He got up there. And he talked about three fears. The first core fear being uncertainty. And as founders that's applicable to us, because we become control freaks. And we won't hire. Oh, I'm giving you eyeballs.Michele Hansen 16:49 I see. I see those eyeballs. I, I, hey, you know, whatever. What are the breakthroughs I had, I'm just just saying this in David's workshop on we should really use people's last names because they're so good. Yes. Um, but now if you like, you know, us know them. So anyway, so, um, David's workshop on, like, personal mission statements, but you also don't believe. And I was like, I've had a personal mission statement for 15 years, but also apparently never told anyone. But like doing that exercise with him, where I crystallize the thought that I am building a business, not an organization. And at this point in my life, I don't have the mental energy to run an organization. I love running a business, but dealing with like, people, politics and all that, like I mean, a lot of the stuff that like Rosie talked about, about hiring and people management, like I just I mean, with just managing, like the people in my own house is kind of the level of management that I'm like capable of. Anyway, yes. Not hiring. So that was the fear of uncertainty.Colleen Schnettler 18:03 Well, I mean, there were other things in that, but just generally, with what we do. There's so much uncertainty, and that is also a core fear. So that's something you really have to learn to manage. And I think what you just said about David, David, David's workshop is really good. Because you, you realize that for yourself. And you've kind of always known that, but I don't know if you verbalized it or crystallize it before, in that knowingMichele Hansen 18:26 that way. That workshop was awesome. Like, yeah,Colleen Schnettler 18:29 I loved David's to David sherry. Yeah, everyone. Yes. I love Dave. Oh,Michele Hansen 18:34 good. Yeah, it was basically like, people who are familiar with jobs to be done or who Google things about jobs to be done. The there's like the forces diagram working through the different like, pushes and pulls and anxieties and fears that someone has that keeps them in, in a situation from switching products. We basically applied that to like, our professional lives. And our companies. And it was yeah,Colleen Schnettler 19:01 it was it was really good. Like I was also Pooh poohing the mission statement thing, but it was,Michele Hansen 19:06 it was really, it totally called you out. In frontColleen Schnettler 19:10 of everyone. Thanks. It's fine. We were like a group of friends. By that point. It didn't feel awkward. It was yeah, it was so intimate. Okay, it was so intimate. Yeah. Okay, so the second fear. So this is Itamar. His second fear was worthlessness, which is a second core fear which I think we can all kind of imposter syndrome. And I'm not good enough. And I think we can all identify with that on some level. And the third core fear was abandonment, which is what will people think if I fail, and then he talked a little bit about the ways that we we try to deal with these fears without actually dealing with them, which is obviously a big one is numbing agents and vices, whether that's Twitter or buying things or alcohol or whatever, procrastination And he also talked about the motivation fallacy where if you don't actually handle these fears, you'll like so many of us have gotten in this spurt will actually basically just describe this, but it's like, I'm gonna get it before I am every day. And that's cyclical, like you can't do that forever. So you can do pushes, but eventually that motivation is going to wane. Unless you handle, you know, the, the root of some of these fears. So the solution of this is to minimize your fear and internal resistance. And a lot of people don't do this, because they're unaware that they even have those fears. And that's kind of where I was coming from. Like, he said, these things. I was like, oh, yeah, that that all makes total sense. But I was kind of unaware that those were going on subconsciously.Michele Hansen 20:42 Are there any of those fears that you feel like you really identify with as it relates to this whole?Colleen Schnettler 20:50 I think I mean, I think for me, part of the reason I haven't really wanted to push is like I said, like, I'm very blessed in my, my life is really good right now. So I don't want to do anything that upsets the balance of the happiness that I feel right now. But I think a lot of that too, might be abandonment, and it's not abandonment in this great big, like, I don't care what the internet people think of me. But you know, of my family. Like if I'm going to work more, how is that? What, what are what's going to happen with my relationship with my husband and my children? And those are the most important things. So I think that might have been a core fear for me. Yeah. Oh, man, all of them. Michelle, like and I don't even think I would have been like, I don't have any fears. I'm fine. Before this talk. Uncertainty. That's a big one, too. Because, as you know, as independent as entrepreneurs, we are constantly uncertainty. I mean, it's constant uncertainty, right? Every day, like, what should I do? I don't know what to do. Is this gonna work? Is this gonna work? I have no idea. I have no one to ask. So that's a stressful thing. Like it's not a bad thing. But it is. It's kind of a constant stress. Like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Yeah. So yeah, I took away from it. And I was I was feeling it. I was digging it. It soundsMichele Hansen 22:03 like it was an awesome talk. And I feel like I joined everyone else who wished that they had been at founder summit and having a little bit of FOMO, about missing that. But at the same time, it was like right after my, basically spur of the moment negotiations workshop that I had, like, maybe 20 minutes to plan out in my head during lunch. And I had so much adrenaline after that, that I got through the next talk, which was a great panel on sales for founders. But I like I had so much adrenaline I couldn't sit still. And I was like, I just like I have I have to go like walk like I need to like walk back to the hotel. And I ended up like walking back with some other some other people. And it was like a half hour walk. And I just like really needed that because I was like, jumping out of my skin with energy.Colleen Schnettler 22:57 Yeah, well, you did a great job. I loved your negotiation talk. I learned a lot out of that, too. I don't know if I told you that. Oh, yeah. So it was interesting, because you set us up to do the sample negotiation. It's one thing to talk about negotiation, I think it's another thing to do it. So what's give a quick read, I'll give a quick recap, you basically set us up where we were the person who lived under the person who was a piano player, and the piano player wanted to play his piano every night at 10pm. And we had little children, and we wanted him not to play his piano every night at 10pm. And so I'm talking to the person I'm paired up with. And he's talking about playing his piano. And I immediately just got so angry, and like, I'm not really an angry person. And I like in my head, like, I can see I can see my my mental energy, like rolling my eyes, like, oh my god, he was pretending to be like, 20 right? He was not actually 20 But um, you know, just mentally rolling my eyes like, oh my god, millennials. Give me a break. Stop playing your piano. You're such a anyway. Yeah. So that was really enlightening for me. Because I think I pride myself on like, being very good at having self awareness about my emotions and controlling my emotions. And like, I could not I almost rolled my eyes at him. SoMichele Hansen 24:15 yeah, the the, the sort of setup was it was actually that that activity, we did it in my Danish class. And I was like, this is a great negotiation. Like, it wasn't the purpose of it. But it was, you know, you have one person who's a music student who can, because of their schedule, they can only practice at 10 o'clock at night. But per the apartment building rules, they don't have to be quiet until 11. And then you were the parent whose children are getting woken up. And then you you all had to like talk through it. It was it was really fun. And I think after that I had a couple people be like, oh, like, is this your next book? And like, I'mColleen Schnettler 24:53 like, no, because I'm taking care of my personal health. Not ready to write another book, but okay, that was notMichele Hansen 24:59 the end. answer I gave you like, maybe should have been, why not? No. I mean, like, I started working with teaching people about customer interviews and customer research, like, four years ago, like, because like my friends and I ran a job speed on meetup in DC. And I started talking to other founders about it and stuff like that. So I like before I ever sat down to write, I not only had, you know, years of like, personal experience with it, and personal learning and learning from other people and whatnot, but also years of, of, of learning how to teach other people about it, and what are the common hiccups with it? hiccups? And you know, what, like, like, what resonates with people like all that kind of stuff? Well, before I ever sat down to write, versus like, I don't think I'm nearly the same level of, of expertise in negotiating. Like, I have a lot of practice in it. I've taken classes on it. Like, I guess that was, I don't know, I guess, like 334 years ago now. But like, that was the first time I have ever attempted to teach anyone else about negotiating.Colleen Schnettler 26:19 And what great, did a great job,Michele Hansen 26:21 thank you. Um, but I think I think I need to like a lot, a lot more time before I even get the point of of like thinking about whether that's a book or whatnot, though I am like, I did talk to other people there, who are also interested in like enterprise sales and negotiating and stuff like that. And so we actually will have some people on in the coming months, who will, we'll kind of like, talk more about that stuff. Because I think that's a big part of kind of going from, you know, the sort of stage you're in which I feel like is sort of like the under 10k a month, Mr. Phase, going 10 to 20 is really like for me, it was a lot about learning how to do sales, and definitely going from like, 20 to 50. Like you. I don't think I would have gotten to that point. Had I not had a better understanding of sales and negotiating. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to talk more about that. But But no, like, no book yet. I still haven't even hit your like, 20 podcast goal for promoting deploy empathy, like you're doing? Well,Colleen Schnettler 27:35 I think you have been on quite a lot. 10 or so. Okay. 12 IMichele Hansen 27:40 think I just recorded another one. The other day, I think, yeah, I just did one yesterday. And then I have two scheduled. Nice, I need to like have a spreadsheet and keep track.Colleen Schnettler 27:57 Yeah,Michele Hansen 27:59 um, you could do that. I could. Yeah. That would make sense. It's getting weirdly hard to track how many books I've sold, because like amazon online will only show me 90 days at a time. So I can't just go and like see all that's weird sold. Like I maybe again, if somebody like knows about this, like, let me know. But I'm in like the KDP reports dashboard. And then the reports beta and like, I sneak looks like I might need to like do it manually? Or at least like by month. And then. Yeah, so I don't I don't know. I'm also starting to give some more like, like, sort of private workshops with the book, like, I'm going to be speaking to an MBA class tomorrow online. And a friend asked me if like, I would speak to their marketing team, like do like a workshop. So we'll kind of see how that goes. I don't think I want to go too much in that direction. Like I don't want to be like, you know, selling like a day long workshop thing. Like we've talked about how I really don't want to do consulting,Colleen Schnettler 29:05 right? You have mentioned that a few times.Michele Hansen 29:10 But like maybe doing a workshop and you know, then they buy like 50 copies of the book. You know, I guess I'm cool with that.Colleen Schnettler 29:15 Yeah, seems like a good use of your time. If you enjoy it.Michele Hansen 29:19 Yeah, but I think I you know, I think for me, the big thing is like what does balance even mean? I mean, I I don't know.Colleen Schnettler 29:29 Yeah, I understand the question. But I think it's James clear has this really interesting thing about the how balance isn't a real before burners theory, the downside of work life balance. Have you seen this?Michele Hansen 29:44 Oh, that sounds familiar that like you have one burner going and then you can't have Okay,Colleen Schnettler 29:49 ready? Here it goes. four burners like your stove. The first burner represents your family, the second burners, your friends, the third burners, your health, and the fourth burner is your work. The four burners theory says that in order to be successful, you have to cut off one of your burners. And in order to be really successful, you have to cut off to anyway, here's a whole article about it. It's an interesting, interesting idea. But the idea is there isn't a real thing such as balance, there are times where you shift your focus. Like, for example, you this would be a good time for you to shift your focus from work, because you've been working so much for 610 years, to maybe health or whatever it would be right. And maybe it's time for me to shift my focus back to work. But the idea is, it's like, you really can't have balance. It's a lie. You can just have, you know, areas that are shifting and priorities. I can't have everything on five. Right, right, exactly. You can't have everything on five. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. And it kind of makes us all of us who are so hard trying to find balance a little bit better, because you're like, oh, okay, this sounds about right. This seems reasonable.Michele Hansen 30:56 Yeah, I guess. I mean, he's the habits guy, right. Like he's the habits guy. Yeah. So I guess I need to finally read that book. So yeah, so So that's our 90 day plan. Right? So you're gonna Yeah, you've got my herd nanny now. I mean, always, you've got your plan in action.Colleen Schnettler 31:17 I'm an act and I'm gonnaMichele Hansen 31:19 continue marinating. Oh, my God, it sounds like you. You were like, I'm gonna read more about this and think more. Like, I was like, I'm gonna do this now. Already done. I did it before I talked to you. Yeah, happening?Colleen Schnettler 31:38 I know, right? It's good, though, right? Because we both have, it's good, I guess. Yeah, I'm already in action. I've already posted more content. And I am making a video tutorial page. And I'm doing all kinds of things. And oh, the only thing I really got out of it, Michelle was a real focus, thinking more long term. So I think one of the things is we met a lot of people who have been running their businesses. I mean, I know you're kind of in this group. But I've been running their businesses for many, many years. And there were many people I met who aren't really trying to have some big exit, like they want to build a sustainable business that they can work on for as long as they want. And so that really helped me focus in terms of like thinking about where I want to spend my time and my energy and what I want my long term outlook from, like, for my career to look like? So I found that to be really beneficial.Michele Hansen 32:33 Was there any, like insights that you feel like are? Yeah, I think his point,Colleen Schnettler 32:39 what I found is, so I told you, I'm going to I'm really gonna push on simple file upvote, simple file upload for the next three months, simple file up vote, that sounds interesting. For the next couple months to kind of see what I can do with that if I really work at it. But I think long term, I am more interested in pursuing the opportunity, like really leaning into what to the Hammerstone team. Because when I think of the long term business I want to build, I can't think of anything better than doing really technically challenging work with my friends. Like I love as we've talked about when I joined Hammerstone, like I love having co workers or co founders. And that's really where I want to go. Right now I'm doing okay, splitting my time. But that's not sustainable in the long term. So I'm not sure what that looks like in a year. But it looks like my focus being more on Hammerstone. I thinkMichele Hansen 33:29 something else we talked about was, you know, the fact that you like you guys are funded for a year. And like the fact that you are funded for a year made you feel like you can take a year to get some stuff done, and how you can get more than that done in a year, too.Colleen Schnettler 33:51 So Jimmy from banal got up there talking about this was a founder summit about how to sell something that doesn't exist. Now his product is very specific, and it was very targeted was, you know, targeted to a very specific group of people. But I am not doing so I don't have the rails component for this query builder that I'm building with Hammerstone. But I also haven't really been doing anything to get the word out about it. And so yeah, we're funded for a year and I feel like the work is filling the time allotted. And the work doesn't necessarily need to fill the time allotted. I think I could be a little more efficient and a little more focused. Not that I'm not focused just there's more I could be doing on the Hammerstone side that I'm not and so it really kind of opened my eyes to like there's a lot of other opportunities here. You could get a content machine going now even if you can't sell it for six months, I could be writing articles about all this really interesting sequel stuff I'm doing whatever it may be point being like there's there's things I can put in place earlier. You know, as as I build this component,Michele Hansen 34:52 you know, hearing you talk about like it being time to push it almost. I feel like you're conceptualizing it as like this, like, switch, you can flick, like that, like, Okay, now like now you're gonna push like, do you feel like that is? How it's gonna work? So IColleen Schnettler 35:15 don't know, but a little bit like, let's go back to simple file. I've been a little bit mopey about it, what should I do? What should I do on Monday? Like, I know exactly what to do, right? It's like, I haven't been really trusting my own intuition here. I've been asking for permission or advice. And these are all good things. Advice is good. But why am I asking people for? Like, I want someone to say that's a good idea. Colleen, you should do that. No, I don't need it. It's my business. I get to do whatever the hell I want with it. So, you know, people like you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't. Um, I Okay. I appreciate everyone's advice, and I solicit it. But also, I think I you know, I just really, it's a very small product still, like, I'm just going to go with my gut. And I'm just going to do what I think is best. And I haven't really been doing that, because I have been so careful about overworking myself, I guess.Michele Hansen 36:06 And so I feel like that that I mean, that comes back to that like fear that we talked about, like waiting for somebody else. To say that your plan of action. Your idea is your decision. Good was a good one. Yes. subjective opinion, to massage your fear. That yes, it was totally and is that like, you know, uncertainty about the about the decision or all these other things? I don't know.Colleen Schnettler 36:36 Yeah, no, totally. I think for me, I'm really worried about making a decision that is going to be a waste of time. That's what it's about. Because my time feels so So, so limited. So I'm like, should I write this article? Is this article worth writing? Like, if it's gonna take me three hours to write it? Is that going to be worth it? Right, I just wrote the freakin article on the airplane home for Mexico. Oh, while I was stuck in DFW for 12 hours and then and then flew to a different city and then bus to my city that I actually live in the graveyard.Michele Hansen 37:03 Both took both of us 14 hours to get home yet I went across like, two continents. Oh my goodness. But also it was a bazillion times worth it to travel 14 hours to and from to be there.Colleen Schnettler 37:18 And I think something else. Speaking of founders comp, being amazing. The quality of everything was just so much better than your typical tech conference. OhMichele Hansen 37:26 my god. Yeah,Colleen Schnettler 37:27 everything was better.Michele Hansen 37:28 The food was amazing. The venue like I loved how I mean, you were saying how like a lot of conferences, you're just in the hotel. And we were like, out and about in the city like everything all over the city. And it was such a cool city too. And I feel like we really got to experience like culture and and just in a way that yeah, you're you're not just like stuck in a hotel ballroom for three days.Colleen Schnettler 37:51 Like, okay, so this is not a dig because I love rails comp. But I remember it was the last rails comp I went to before COVID. They're like, Oh, it's in Minneapolis. Minneapolis is a great city, blah, blah, blah, literally, you stay in the hotel, and then you walk through the breezeway to the ballroom, you never go outside, ever. And point being like yeah, of course, you can go outside but, but all of the activities are like you you never leave it you don't ever have to leave the hotel. And so I loved how founders comp really made an effort to get local venues, support, you know, local businesses, and actually see Mexico City loved it.Michele Hansen 38:29 I I really, really hope they have it in Mexico City next year. Like dude,Colleen Schnettler 38:33 I hope we get to again get in because there's going to be freaking every one is going to want to go it's going to add the fight to the death and who gets to go. Geez.Michele Hansen 38:45 Well, I think I think that about wraps up our recap, though. I feel like we're gonna be talking about this. And like, Oh, yes. So many learning summit for a long time. Yeah, so many learning, and also having people come on the show who we met at founder Summit, and no, and no three founders Summit, too. Because there's also the the online community, which you should totally be in a mastermind group, by the way.Colleen Schnettler 39:13 Yeah, I'm thinking about that. Like, I, I think that's probably a valuable thing. I'll probably do that. And IMichele Hansen 39:18 think that would help with you're like, Should I do this? And then people are like, yeah, and you're like, Yeah, okay.Colleen Schnettler 39:26 I feel like a lot of this is just trusting your gut, which I'm usually pretty good at. But like, with the business since it's all new, like I just haven't really just been doing what I think is best. Like I said, I've been asking permission just to random people, which is kind of weird, because I don't want to make a huge misstep. But the truth is, all of these things, none of them are going to be huge missteps and they can all be changed if it's a bad decision. So so that's really this week. I've been crushing some life, but by work work, is what I mean by that. Like, I've just been like, I've been I've just been like really crushing it and it feels great. SoMichele Hansen 39:58 it's awesome. Awesome well so next week I interviewed Matt wensing was super fun so then we will chat again in two weeksColleen Schnettler 40:12 sounds great talk to you then
You've probably heard about cold showers by now, popularized by people like Wim Hoff or other "bio hackers"But, did you know, hydrotherapy has a verrrry long history with roots in traditional naturopathic medicine?In this episode, we cover how water can be used to heal, real benefits, and practical tips.If you'd like to join these conversations live, be sure to Subscribe to the Alter Health YouTube Channel! https://www.youtube.com/alterhealthSome highlights from today's MM episode...- Water is used to conduct circulation - where blood flows, energy goes, and where energy goes, healing happens- Cold exposure activates BROWN FAT which is the more metabolically "good fat"- Cold showers is a great hormetic eustress - moving the body to respond in all sorts of favorable ways- Cold-Shock Proteins can be activated which are protective against oxidative stress- This sort of controlled stress boosts the sympathetic nervous system briefly which activates immunity- The autonomic nervous system is ultimately augmented as the body is more able to rest in its natural restful, parasympathetic state.Links to some more good stuff- Join the Plant Based &. Stress Free FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/alterhealth- Cleanse with Us during the next Alter Health Cleanse: https://www.alter.health/cleanse- Work with us in the Thrive on Plants program: https://www.alter.health/thrive-on-plants- ATTN Health Practititioners! Learn more and apply to the Plant Based Mind Body Practitioner Program: https://www.alter.health/pbmb-practitionerPeace and Love.
In this episode, the M&M brothers get to celebrate a fantastic milestone... episode 100! Where did the time go? We discuss what we've appreciated about the journey, thank our listeners, and brainstorm new ways to elevate the conversation. Thank you for your support. Stay blessed. *This episode is sponsored by The GAPAPS Success Blueprint - 6 Simple Steps to Lifelong Success ©2021 FINANCIALLY ALERT LLC & SUCCESS BY CHOICE INC. All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this podcast is for general education purposes only. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage derived from the information provided.
「我從高三開始投資，到今年為止差不多 14、15 年。」 本次邀請的來賓「定錨產業筆記」站長 Paulson，不只投資經驗豐富，還擅長產業分析。「因為船入港以後，都會有『定錨』這個動作。」本次節目他會與我們聊聊為什麼需要用「產業分析」在股海中定錨！ 這一集絕對是知識密度很高的一集，除了可以從台股、美股重要企業財報掌握科技趨勢；你也將了解如何從總經角度看生產力循環與半導體循環！
In today's podcast interview you will learn how to make any job your dream job. With a reported 4.3 million people having left the US workforce in August of 2021, this is a very timely topic. The questions I have been asking leaders and teams include the following: Why do you want to stay working with your current team and company? What makes you want to leave? Are there parts of your current job or role that you feel frustrated with? Do you have the mindset to stay and make it work because it's not going to be any better anywhere else? If any of these thoughts have crossed your mind, this podcast is for you. Learn how to advocate for yourself and make your current role work for you with my friend and guest Carson Tate. Carson is the founder and managing partner of Working Simply, a productivity consulting and training firm and author of 2 books, her latest- Own it, Love It, Make it Work: Make Any Job Your Dream Job. Together we explore many tips and conversations you can have to invite optimal conditions for thriving and performance at work. We speak about the importance of building trust, so that we have the psychological safety for contracts and agreements that support work that we love, while having the brave exchanges to talk about healthy boundaries and other conditions that would make us love to stay and bring our best gifts to our teams and workplace. Tune into this encouraging episode today. SHINE Links: Leading from Wholeness Executive Coaching Leading from Wholeness Learning and Development Resources Shine: Ignite Your Inner Game to Lead Consciously at Work and in the World by Carley Hauck Contact Carley Hauck Book Carley for speaking Sign up for the Podcast! Carley on LinkedIn Carson Tate Carson Tate on LinkedIn Working Simply Mentioned in this Episode SHINE Podcast Episode #40- Psychological Safety in the Workplace Assessment: What's Your Personal Productivity Style? Amazon Upskilling 2025 Programs The Imperfect Shownotes Carley Hauck 0:01 Hi, my name is Carley Hauck. I am the host of the SHINE podcast. Welcome to another wonderful episode. I am the founder of Leading From Wholeness, a Leadership and Organizational Development Training firm that has served companies including Intuit, Bank of the West, Capital One, Pixar, Clif Bar, LinkedIn, and many high growth startups since 2010. I am also the author of Shine: Ignite Your Inner Game to Lead Consciously at Work and in the World. And this podcast is all about the intersection of three things: conscious, inclusive leadership; the recipe for high performing teams; and awareness practices. This season, season five is all about speaking to friends, colleagues, thought leaders, around some of the biggest challenges we are navigating at work and in the world. And in the midst of the reshuffle with reported 4.3 million people having left the US workforce in August of 2021. I speak about a very timely topic: how to make any job your dream job with my good friend, Carson Tate. This is a topic I've been talking to a lot of leaders and teams about. Why do they want to stay working with their current team and company? And what makes them want to leave? Are there parts of your current job or role that you feel frustrated with? Or maybe you're even looking for other possibilities within your company? Or maybe outside of your company? Or are you have the mindset that it's not going to be any better anywhere else? And instead, how do you advocate for yourself and make your current role work for you? If you resonate with either one of these options, this is the podcast for you. In this interview, Carson, I talked about the strong inner game she uses to lead consciously at work and in the world. We explore many tips and conversations you can have to invite optimal conditions for thriving and performance at work. We speak about the importance of building trust, so that we have the psychological safety for contracts and agreements that support work that we love, while having the brave exchanges to talk about healthy boundaries, and other conditions that would make us love to stay. Carson Tate is the Founder and Managing Partner of Working Simply, a productivity consulting and training firm that has served companies including Delta Airlines to Lloyd FedEx, Wells Fargo, and Chick fil A. She's the author of Work Simply: Embracing the Power of Your Personal Productivity Style and her new book, which we're going to talk quite a bit about in this podcast, Own It, Love It, Make It Work: How to Make Any Job Your Dream Job. Carson, so lovely to have you here on the SHINE podcast. Thank you. Carson Tate 03:25 Thank you. I've been looking forward to it all week in our conversation. So thanks for the opportunity. Carley Hauck 03:43 Ah, you're You're welcome. I'm delighted to go into all these juicy places. So let's start from the top. What motivated you to want to become a business coach, support businesses, leaders, and all the wonderful ways that you do it? Carson Tate 03:58 Hey, we spend almost a third of our waking life at work. And I believe that work can be a place of meaning, purpose and great significance. And in our organizations, our leaders have a significant impact on the well being of their team and the performance of their organization. And I really wanted to help leaders really enable team members to shine- your word- and all facets of that, and not in any way have a focus on developing their folks and connecting to purpose and meaning in any way detract from their driving revenue. I believe both can coexist. Carley Hauck 04:39 Thank you. And what would you define conscious inclusive leadership because I know that's important to you. Carson Tate 04:49 So I would take the two words and pull them apart first. So conscious to me, means awake and aware. And it's grounded and radical self awareness, because I believe that we need to be very clear on how we're showing up, what's influencing us, our values, and that level of self awareness isn't going to impede, it's going to permeate our leadership. So, for me, I focus on the self part of consciousness. And then the inclusion, that it's not just about honoring differences, it's about inviting folks to show up as their authentic selves, and that they feel a sense of belonging, and a connection to the organization, their team members, and the overarching purpose of the work. Carley Hauck 05:46 Hmm. I love how you just broke those apart into the inner and the outer because you know, for my book, I really focused on that the conscious being the inner the inclusive being the outer game, love it. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I know that in your work, you focus on productivity, you focus on teams, you focus on leadership. And your first book, Working Simply, had a lot to do with productivity. And I know you created this really well regarded productivity skill assessment. And we'll leave a link for the show notes. And then you have a new book, which I have right next to me. Own It, Love It, Make It Work: How to Make Any Job Your Dream Job and super wonderful offering and very timely for right now. And I know this came out about a year ago, correct? Carson Tate 06:44 Correct. Yeah. Carley Hauck 06:46 So I, I wanted to talk to you a bit about this book. Because, as we know, and you obviously didn't know this as you're writing this book, because writing a book takes a long time. But somewhere in the unconscious or spirit or however this was channeled to you, there has been this big upset in the workplace. As of August 2021, we had 4.3 million people leave the workplace. This has been called the Great resignation, the great reshuffle. But in the United States, that's about 2.9% of the workforce. That's huge. And people have been leaving because they want more flexibility, they want more meaning and purpose. They want more empathy and care and psychological safety and inclusion, they want to feel like they belong and don't have to cover parts of themselves and can speak their truth and bring their authenticity like you shared in your definition. They want higher pay. They want the work life balance that maybe they never had. And so this book, again, in so many ways, addresses, how do we make you know, our work, work for us and really own what's important. And so before I go into different aspects of your book, is there anything that you want to say in response to that? Carson Tate 08:14 Well, first, I don't think I had a premonition. But you're right, it is very timely now. And I think also, I'm excited by these statistics, in the sense of it is a very strong catalyst for action. So when 2.9% of the workforce resigns, that is a message that is, I think, a resounding call for change. And everything that you said that we've seen in the research that employees want, sounds wonderful, psychological safety, being seen and valued authentically for who you are compensation that allows you to live your life, care for your family care for our community, meaning and purpose at work, excellent leaders who are able to lead organizations that succeed financially. That's a pretty wonderful description of work. And so when you have these forcing agents, which this type of resignation is, change, isn't oh, maybe nice to do, change now becomes a necessity, which is great. Carley Hauck 09:32 Totally. I know that you have a meditation practice and we'll get into this and yes, in a really big part of the Dharma, so to speak, that I have brought into making the workplace better, and that's the world better. But when there is a lot of suffering, is often when we go to meditation, you know, we don't often sit on our cushion when life is fabulous and great, but I do think that suffering is a huge catalyst for change. And there's a lot to let go of in our world from the way we take care of the planet, to the way that we're working to the way that we're taking care of those we care about. And we love. So there's, there's a lot of opportunity for inner and collective transformation right now. Yeah. So you've, you've really compartmentalized your book in kind of these three sections. Can you tell me what those three sections are? Carson Tate 10:37 Yes. So the first section is Own It. And Own It is all about you getting clear on what your engagement and fulfillment needs are. There is not a one size fits all, Carley, and Carson's might have some similarities, but you have your needs, I have my needs. The second piece around Loving It is how do we create that happiness and that joy at work through relationships? Human beings are social animals, we are primed. It's a primal need. So how do we build those connections that are so important? And how do we continue to advance in our career? And then the third component of the book is Make It Work. So how do you use a technique? It's called job crafting. But how do you start to shape and craft your job and career to meet those fulfillment and engagement needs that you have identified? Carley Hauck 11:30 Wonderful. Well, I'm gonna go into a couple different exercises and aspects of those three parts. I think that'll be really helpful for our listeners here. So, you know, as, as we're talking about, how do we redesign the workplace, for greater empathy, for well being for psychological safety, for fulfillment, I know that some of the ways that you are able to be the strong leader that you are, and your well being practices are around three pillars. And so I thought we could start there. And you called it when we talked a few weeks ago, the three legged stool, I loved that meditation, movement and resting. And when I heard you say that, it really corresponds a lot to the framework for my book. And, you know, how do we cultivate this strong inner game? Well, if we're not taking that time for reflection, you know, the meditation, which is the, you know, building the self awareness. If we don't have self-awareness, we can't change what we don't see, you know, whether that's our own habits and our patterns of responding or reacting, how we're doing it in the workplace, but also then how it corresponds to the greater world. And so tell me a little bit about how you take time, every day for this three legged stool. Carson Tate 16:06 Yes, and I described it as a three legged stool and make a point on the why of that, because I think it's important. I know, in my own life, when one of these legs, let's say, for example, the one I most frequently give up is rest. When that leg isn't secure, the whole entire stool topples over, right, every all of it falls apart. But the way I make time is I start my day with meditation, prayer, reflection, and movement. And I'm a morning person. So I like to protect the early hours of my day for that, it centers me, It grounds me, and it energizes me for the day ahead. Now, rest, for me, is also a part of movement. And we chatted about this as well. So it could be an active rest of my workday, you talked about going outside feet in the ground. And for me, it is outside and just maybe a five or 10 minute stroll around my neighborhood between meetings, just to let my brain rest. And then there's obviously the physical rest of sleep. Carley Hauck 14:13 Thank you. Well, and I brought that in at the beginning because I feel like that's owning the parts of you that are necessary to cultivate first so that you can bring your best to be able to give whatever you're wanting to give at work or in your relationships. Carson Tate 14:39 Yeah. It's that foundational piece. That is so important. Carley Hauck 14:46 Mm hmm. Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing how you're making that a priority in your life. The part of the Own It section of your book that I really loved was on cultivating a growth mindset. And so when we think about again, meditation as a form of cultivating self awareness supporting the growth mindset, and for folks that are in a work play scenario right now, and I was actually just talking to one of my clients earlier today, and I know you talked to a lot of people as well, and she is focusing on, I can't change this, this isn't working for me, I'm thinking about leaving this current leadership role. And then I encouraged her to focus on Well, what is working? And where actually, can you take some responsibility to maybe ask for what you want in a different way. And so I would love it if you could talk us through this part of your book, but more specifically, you have this fabulous framework called the C framework, could you tell us more about that, and how that supports us to own it. Carson Tate 15:56 Mm hmm. And so the Own It is about the clarity around what you need. And one way that we can get clarity is through personal self reflections. And meditation is great. But another way to get insights and clarity about developmental opportunities and growth theory is through feedback. And most of the time, if we mentioned the word feedback, I don't know about you, but most of us sweat, like, our brains immediately go to the worst case scenario. And so the C framework is a feedback framework that we use with our clients to help them get feedback that is specific, where they can get where they share with their leader or their colleagues, they give an example of the type of feedback and they explain part of the feedback process that third, he is explained what I did or did not do. So it's specific, share an example of the type of feedback that I want. And then my ask of you is to explain the behavior that did or did not occur. So we can be very fact based, very specifically and narrowly defined in one area. So let's say for example, I want to be promoted to a VP of our organization. And I know that succinct, clear communication is one of the competencies of the VPs in our organization. So you're my manager Carley. And so, using this framework to develop and advance in my career to VP, I would come and say, Carley, I want to advance to being a VP, I'm really focused on developing and refining my communication. When we're in meetings together, can you please let me know, if you hear the bottom line, or the central point or my opinion, within the first five minutes of that presentation? Then what you would do, is after the presentation is that, Carson, I heard your central point, I was like, 12 minutes in? Great. So you didn't do it in the first five. And it's very clear, and it's also very narrowly defined. And so it allows me to focus on developing one skill set at a time, without good or bad or great, because that's not feedback. I can't replicate it. And I know that it's going to be behavior that is observed. Carley Hauck 18:19 Wonderful. Well, and for a lot of people, you know, even though we want feedback, it's hard for us not to take it personally sometimes. And what I love about this framework is that it keeps it focused on the actions, you know, it's you didn't do anything wrong. It's just that you still have refinement to do on this particular action. Right. So it pulls the shame right out of there. Carson Tate 18:48 Absolutely. Yes. And when you focus on asking your manager for feedback, some of our clients don't want to feel this way and struggle to ask for feedback. But when we connect it to performance, and we connect it to career advancement, I'll also think it takes a little bit less of the anxiety out of it. And then when you are this specific, it is about behavior and actions. I didn't do it or not. And then you're giving me the feedback of what did or did not occur. So I can adjust in my next presentation. Carley Hauck 19:23 Let's take a body break. Notice your feet connected to the floor. Notice your body standing or sitting. So just take a few minutes, I'd like to lead you through an awareness practice around trust. Take a deep breath in. Deep breath out to any movement and the shaking and the sounding to release tension. Just bringing your awareness into the present moment. When I am invited to work with teams or senior level leaders and companies, one of the first things that I'm assessing for is the level of trust and psychological safety. Trust is the essential ingredient and foundation for all relationships, but also for all businesses to thrive. Because business is all about relationships. And without trust, you can't build anything that will succeed for the long term. And any kind of organizational change will be seriously challenged if you don't have a foundation of psychological safety and trust. So what is trust? Well, organizational scholars define trust as our willingness to be vulnerable to the actions of others, because we believe that they have good intentions and will behave well towards us. In other words, we let others have power over us because we don't think they'll hurt us, we think they'll help us and have our backs. And when trust levels high within coworker relationships, it corresponds to trusting the company that employs us. And we feel confident and want to save us or abuse its relationship with us. It has our backs. But then why are so many people leaving the US workforce? It all comes down to trust. But how do we trust? And in order to trust someone, especially someone who was unfamiliar to us, or someone that has deceived us? There's a lot going on under the surface, there's likely thoughts on both sides such as should I trust you? How much do you trust me? Why should I trust you? Some of us are innately trusting, naturally seeking positive intent and putting the we before the me. But in my experience, trust is earned. It is not wise to trust someone blindly until you have vetted that they are in fact trustworthy. And just like everything else in life, it starts with the inner game. So I'd love to invite you to just reflect on a couple of these questions. This is about building trust with yourself. And the more that you trust yourself, the more you'll be able to trust others, and develop social contracts and agreements for trust. What assignment can you follow through on today that will support you in increasing your trust in yourself? Next, identify someone in your life at work or at home who has violated your trust. After expressing your fears and concerns to this person, negotiate a task or request that he, she or they can do to rebuild trust with you. Next, invite an open conversation with someone in your life at work or at home, whose trust you have violated. What happened? Did you break an agreement or break a boundary of theirs? After sharing your feelings of remorse and desire to repair, invite a new agreement that begins to restore the original broken agreement. So these three invitations as you can see, start from the shallow end to the deep end. And it starts on the inside. If you're interested in growing your inner game, upskilling your soft skills for conscious, inclusive leadership, my book and hardcopy or audiobook has lots of wonderful ways that you can do this. And in fact, the exercise I just shared with you is coming from chapter six, the Inner Game of Authenticity. If you're interested in learning how to create a foundation of psychological safety, building more trust through authenticity, so that you have the optimal performance for thriving, I would love to speak with you. You can book a free concert floatation. And we can talk about how we can develop training, or a large scale program to support greater psychological safety and supporting this virtual distributed, trusting team in these times. Now, going back to the second part of the interview, Carson and I will speak more to how to make any job, your dream job. Before we move into the Love It part, is there anything else you want folks to know about Own It? I mean, you have a lot of pieces in there. And I know we're doing broad strokes, because we don't have all day together. Although I wish. Carson Tate 25:56 The only thing I would say is that the thesis of the Own It section in the book is that you have an equal and powerful voice in the relationship with your employer. And part of this means you are co-creating a workplace and a job that's mutually beneficial for you and for them. Which means you need to know what you need. And then also to have the courage as you were coaching your leader, what can we find here that is working well for you? And the question, I'm sure she said, is how do we do more of it? And that puts some Own It on her. And then having the conversation with her manager of how do we create a job where I'm doing more of this work that is additive, allowing us to achieve our strategic goals driving revenue, that is also creating a more fulfilling workplace for myself? Carley Hauck 26:48 Well, and I think that's what's so interesting about this time right now, you know, I feel like in many ways, workers leaders were just, they were stuffing, what they really wanted, you know, what would really work for them? What would really allow them to bring their best what would allow them to shine, and now in this, I've had it done, I'm leaving, but that feedback was likely not shared before they left, or maybe it was in small ways, or maybe they just didn't feel like it was going to be heard. And so now as they're looking for the next role, the next company, I feel so curious about what's happening in these negotiations, right? You look at a job and it says 30% travel, or it says, you know, this, this, this and this. And now I think people are feeling empowered to say this is a negotiation, like if I'm going to put in a majority of my waking hours, my love, my innovation, my effort into this job into this team? How do I really make it work for me? Carson Tate 28:02 Yes, and I believe employers are recognizing that, to get all the richness that you and other folks always bring, it is a negotiation to create optimal conditions for people to thrive and for us to achieve goals 100%. And it's being willing to challenge some of the status quo and norms that are really not in alignment with performance that have been around since the Industrial Revolution. And you know, we have built knowledge base work off of industrial base manufacturing principles. We're not robots, we're human beings, not human doings. Carley Hauck 28:45 Totally. I say that all the time. Well, wonderful. Let's move it into Love It. And I also use love a lot in my world. And in my book, and so not a lot of us business folks use the word love but hey, if we're not loving our work, if we're not bringing love, then why would we want to work for that team? Or that leader? That company? Right? Carson Tate 29:10 That's my belief. Yes. Yes! Carley Hauck 29:17 So, in the Love It focus of the book, you start off in the very beginning of that section on strengths and weaknesses and skill development. And I love again, that you're focusing on upskilling because that is such a huge topic right now as we are trying to figure out what is going to support people to want to stay within their current organization, and what's attracting people to want to go to a different organization. And especially these younger workers, you know, Gen Z millennials. They're really craving mentorship, coaching. They want on-the-job skills training, they want to know that they're going to be able to be promoted, you know, and have greater opportunities. And so I'm gonna just focus on one behemoth, an amazing company called Amazon, because they're putting a ton of money towards upskilling. And I was, I was really fascinated to see that. So by 2025, they're committing $1.2 billion to provide free education, skills, training opportunities, to 300,000 of their employees in the US to help them secure new high growth jobs. And they're also investing hundreds of millions of dollars to provide free cloud computing skills training to 29 million people around the world with programs for the public. And you can actually find this on the regular Amazon site. I was looking at it last night, and I was pretty impressed with it. So they're just one company that says upskilling is important to us, we're gonna make sure that, you know, folks that are working for us have the skills to really develop and stay here and grow their careers. And so in your chapter, you talk about assessing your current skills. And you focus on three different distinctions of soft skills, hard skills, and then hybrid skills. And first, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I shared about upskilling. But I'd also love it if you could break down why you focused on those three parts of skills. Carson Tate 31:38 Well, I first did not know that about Amazon. And I'm so excited to hear their commitment, and their leadership around their commitment to their team members and upskilling. And it is absolutely necessary. I mean, I think we've seen during the pandemic, that there has been such a radical shift in how we work, that that requires a reimagination of our skills. So, AI, computing, we knew, and these have always been really needed skills, but I think that's been accelerated. And we also have jobs that are going away. But we have talented people in these roles who we need to help, I believe, adjust, learn and grow in new ways. I think that is part of the conscious community of us being of supporting our team members, it's so important. The reason I focused on soft, hard and hybrid skills, was to break it down for my readers and for our clients. So that they could take incremental steps is I think, when you think about upskilling, that word just what does that mean? Where do I start? I wanted to take the overwhelm out of professional development and growth and break it down into different steps. And depending on where you want to go in your career, there's more of an emphasis sometimes on different sets of these skills. So soft skills would be communication, it would be empathy, it would be emotional intelligence, it would be persuasion, these are skills that I believe are essential for all folks, versus hard skills, which I define as technical skills. So for example, can you put together an Excel model on a complex financial transaction, that's a technical skill, a technical skill could also be using your company CRM. So if you're a customer service representative, there's a customer there is a CRM tool, or there's some type of software that you are expected to use, that is a technical skill, and a hybrid is a combination of assault and a technical skill. And I think about an example here would be email communication. So do you have the soft skill of communication, written communication skills that are clear? And can you appropriately use the technology to make sure that that communication is received? That you're doing it seamlessly and not wasting a lot of time and energy in that platform? Carley Hauck 34:12 I feel really curious because I know, as a leader, I'm a learner. And I really value learning all the time and upskilling and my own growth and development. What have you chosen to upskill and learn and grow in the last year and a half? I mean, I would imagine you're always choosing things to grow. But I, I feel curious in just the navigating of so many things like all of us. Carson Tate 34:45 So where I'm really focused, my learning right now is on change. Because we're in the midst of massive change. Why people change, how you lead change, how you lead broad scale. It'll change, how you shorten the change curve, how you connect head and heart, how we really get into intrinsic motivators that are really driving this change. And the other piece that I'm really fascinated about is trust. Trust on teams, you're talking about psychological safety, which is an element of it. And how do we cultivate that in a hybrid workplace. Because the interactions on a screen are different than if you and I were sitting at a beautiful coffee shop in Asheville, North Carolina, it's very, very different. And I don't believe that the future of work is going to be that we're all in an office together all the time, moments, potentially, there are certain segments of the workforce where they will be working together. Our physicians, our teachers, manufacturing fulfillment centers, however, we're still gonna have to build trust, and how do we do that? Carley Hauck 36:02 Oh, I could totally go down this rabbit hole for a little bit. So I'm going to and then we'll and then we'll break through the book, which is the make it work. But I mean, that's fascinating to me as well, the trust component. And that's something that I take a lot of time, when I'm working with teams. And I think a part of it is vulnerability. But we have to have the psychological safety to feel like we can be vulnerable. What do you think about that? Carson Tate 36:36 I agree with you, 100%. Yeah, I mean, it is vulnerability. It is, you know, vulnerability's close cousin of authenticity. And there is an empathy component in here as well. But if I'm on a team, where I don't feel safe, sharing, maybe a personal experience that has informed how I think about this decision or this project, and I'm not willing to share, be vulnerable about this piece of who I am. I don't trust the trust isn't there. And so if you look at you know, the foundations of highly effective teams, trust me as the base of that pyramid, we can build that model. And so how do we do that? I'm, I'm intrigued. I do think it's vulnerability, psychological safety, how do you create those conditions? And quite frankly, how do we get out of our ego selves, where we're protecting, we're fearful, we're contracted, there's not enough that I can open, be open. It's safe, you're safe, I'm saying? Carley Hauck 37:50 Well, I would say not to plug my own book here. Carson Tate 38:00 But I think you should plug your own book! Carley Hauck 38:01 But, you know, I am brought in to teach a lot on building trust or authenticity. And I did a training for Capital One just a few weeks ago, and I was talking to Intel this morning about something they're needing as well. I mean, and I agree with you, because in this hybrid work environment, there are a lot of people that are going silent, or they're zoomed out, or they're, they're not actually bringing their voice into the space and their cameras, frankly, not even on for some of these meetings, or trainings. And we don't really know what's going on with them. And they might be slowly deciding to leave the workplace or work to, you know, leave the team. And so I feel like when we're cultivating this strong inner game of self awareness, emotional intelligence, resilience, which that growth mindset, well being love and authenticity, we're able to bring a more self regulated, aware response of loving, true person into the space, you know, where I can honor what's true for me, but also be aware of what might be happening for the other. So I think it's a lot of cultivation of the inner but then having agreements and social contracts that support us to be learning and growing together. Carson Tate 39:28 Absolutely. I mean, I think you can use really tactical things around agendas, working agreements, you can create clarity and certainty norms. You can have conversations about how we support each other's social and emotional needs, what are yours we're, what are mine and how do we do this collectively as a group. So there are some very tactical things that you can start to do to kind of scaffold within your team to create more and more psychological safety, more opportunities to cultivate trust and more opportunities for us to be vulnerable. Carley Hauck 39:58 Well, I'm that's actually where I wanted to go next is in the, you know, Make It Work section, you have this team audit process that I thought was so fabulous. Could you walk us through a little bit of that, because I think that supports greater trust. Carson Tate 40:15 So the golden rule is, we all know it, most of us know is to treat others the way that you want to be treated. And the platinum rule is a rule that I think works even better for us in our personal and professional relationships, because it invites us to treat others the way they want to be treated. So we're seeing others for who they are. So that's the first paradigm shift, can you start to get to know your team members around how they want to be communicated with and worked with? And so the way that we use our productivity style assessment tool is a way to audit the team and figure out their different work styles. So are you analytical or logical? Are you more organized and detailed or sequential? Are you more emotional, relational, kinesthetic, or intuitive, big picture and ideation. Each of these four work styles is a different way that they want to work with and interact with you. So for example, let's say team meeting. And as a leader, you aren't aware yet that your team is predominantly analytical and logical. And you have been starting all of your team zooms with chatting about personal things, and sharing Netflix recommendations, which connection is important. But for these analytical, logical, folks, the way they read that from you, as a leader, is not valuing their time, not getting to the point, not being focused on the outcome that you're disrespecting them and their time. You as a leader, maybe you're more relational motional kinesthetic, or looking at it is connection before content. I want to connect with my team, I'm building this trust and building this team. Very different experiences. Carley Hauck 42:06 And so if you are coaching one of these more analytical leaders, what would you encourage them to say, if they're getting really frustrated with the way that this agenda is happening for all these meetings that they're having to attend. Carson Tate 42:25 So I would invite them to have a one on one, ask their team leader for a quick connect afterward, and share with them that their work day, what works best for them is to be very focused and to know what the goal or the objective is for a meeting and to immediately start the meeting there. So that they can accomplish the meeting objectives in the most efficient way possible, and that they are very thoughtful and intentional about their time. And for them, their experience of what they would maybe say as chit chat is not efficient and feels like wasted time. And so detracts from their engagement in that meeting and their overall productivity for the day. Carley Hauck 43:08 That's fabulous. Thank you for that tip. Well, and then, if that leader who is actually hosting the meeting was really listening, I would encourage if I was that leader's coach to then actually get a maybe anonymous report, so to speak from everyone or even just have an open discussion of what's working for people about these meetings and what's not? And how do we audit it so that it works for everyone? Would that be something you might suggest? Carson Tate 43:46 Absolutely. And I think we have a very natural opportunity now to audit all of our team members, all our team meetings, know who we're working with, I think we have an opportunity to audit all of our collaboration systems and processes. So we're in the midst of another massive change. What better opportunity to say, Carley, you know, we haven't been in person for 18 months, we've been working in this remote way. We're now going hybrid. Would you be open to exploring what might really work for us in this new workplace? Tell me what worked for you, what didn't work for you, or now I know that there may be some changes in your personal life. And we need more of this and less of that. It's a natural opportunity for conversation. And I believe everything a leader should be on the table. Carley Hauck 44:33 Right? I agree. I would really love to be able to help facilitate conversations with teams that are speaking to this is what would have me stay and I'd be so excited to stay and contribute and bring this and bring that and this is what has me want to leave. I mean, if we could be that authentic. Carson Tate 45:01 Now we know. I mean So all change starts with awareness. I can't change when I'm not aware of. That is a foundational principle, we use it as coaches all the time. So how do we dial up that awareness, but if the leader knows that what is making me want to leave is a lack of what I perceive is career advancement and development. We now can work on that together. So maybe there isn't the next level position available. But maybe there's an opportunity for me to support you in getting on a company wide committee, maybe we can look at sponsorship and mentorship in a new and different way for you. But once I know as a leader and I've expressed it and owning it as a team member, we can start to affect positive change. Carley Hauck 45:49 And what would you say to a client that is sharing what they want, and there's no room for change. There's no budging of the senior leadership or that person's direct supervisor. Carson Tate 46:08 So the first thing I'm going to ask is, do you know this for sure? So do we have, do you have data? Have you or can you tell me about the conversations that you've had? What has been said, what has not been done? So first, I want to make sure that we are not telling ourselves a story that we actively have taken steps to ask for a mentor, or ask to be nominated for a committee or asked to do more of this type of work, where I shine. And when you're met with resistance, then you can go around. So is there another leader in the organization who might afford you an opportunity to leverage his strength, serve as a mentor, introduce you to a person to cultivate a relationship with so we can go around? Is there an opportunity within the organization to develop some skills and some relationships that are not being met, if with your manager and your team? Or is this just completely intractable, nothing is going to change, you don't see any other avenues around, then it might be the time to think about leaving this team, this division for a new division in your organization, or time to leave the organization. But I would challenge anyone to make sure you're very clear on what your engagement and fulfillment needs are, what your boundaries are, what your values are, how you define meaning and purpose and work before you go to look for that new job. Because wherever you go, there you are, if you haven't done the work on yourself, and you aren't clear on how you contributed to that situation, because as much as we don't want to say it sometimes, in that situation, you have been a participant, you have a piece of the action. So let's get really clear on what it was. So that we can create a different experience and a different future in that new workplace. Carley Hauck 48:11 I love that. Yeah, the radical responsibility, but then also getting really clear on what it is that you need and want. I appreciated you sharing boundaries, because I think that, at least in my own experience, and in my own work, and I'm sure you've struggled navigating it as well, we don't have the same boundary between work and home anymore. They, I mean, they've always been integrated. But now more so than ever, we're not leaving our homes. And as you said, you know, we might be going back into the office a couple of days a week, and we may not some, you know, some companies, it's indefinite. They're not going back today. And so how do we really create those boundaries between work and home, especially if our company and our team are not showcasing healthy boundaries between work and home? Do you have any thoughts around that? Because I, it's definitely something I've been exploring. I've been talking to teams and clients with. Carson Tate 49:15 The first place when we are working with teams because it is coming up more now than it ever has, is to invite a conversation. So as a team, and again, use this time, our company has just announced that we will be staying. Our team is going to be a fully remote team. That's a change. So this again, is this natural opening for us collectively as a team to talk about what does that mean, and what are the working agreements. So I challenge teams to talk about what is your standard email response time? I don't want the assumption. I want the stated implicit expectation of email response time. What is the last hour of the day that we will have a meeting? What is the earliest hour that we will have a meeting, taking into account if we have global colleagues. Some of us are caring for elderly parents, some of us are doing childcare responsibilities in the morning in the afternoon. How do we want to conduct our team meetings? Are we going to record them? So asynchronous work is possible? What are we going to do in terms of preparation? How are we going to honor if there is an emergency and I need Carley to respond right away? What constitutes an emergency? And what communication channels will we use for that, so that the 9:30 pm email or text is not that the unspoken rule is that you have to respond. That it could be that a team member was doing some work in the evening, because they needed the time during the day to care for something else. And for them, this is just their time. But there are no expectations that you respond, because these are no response times. And this is our workday. Carley Hauck 51:02 Those are wonderful suggestions. So for those of you that are listening, Carson has this fabulous book Own It, Love It, Make It Work: How to Make Any Job Your Dream Job. She also has a workbook. And so a lot of these tips and practices we're talking about are in the book, and you can work through them to really own what's going to work for you. Carson, what else would you like to leave folks as far as how they can get in touch. Carson Tate 51:30 So that book is available Own It, Love It, Make It Work on Amazon, all of your outlets where you'd like to buy your book, if you'd like to listen if you love to listen, all of it's available on all the audiobook channels as well. Website workingsimply.com, we do have lots of additional tools and resources and tips and strategies free there on the website for you. And if you're on social media, The Carson Tate on LinkedIn and again, lots of articles and free content there as well. Carley Hauck 52:01 Wonderful. Again, thank you so much. This was really delightful, and always a pleasure. Carson Tate 52:10 Likewise, thank you so much. Carley Hauck 52:12 Thank you Carson for your time, and your light, and friendship. I appreciate the leadership that you're bringing in this pivotal time to folks and companies. If you want to connect more with Carson and tap into some of her amazing offerings, the links are in the show notes. If you enjoy this episode or other SHINE podcast episodes, this is number 50, can't believe we hit 50, I would love for you to share it with friends, family, colleagues or on your favorite social media channel. The more light we can spread amidst the murky waters we're all navigating the better. If you have any questions, comments for topics you would like me to address on the podcast. Please email me at support@carleyhauck.com I would love to hear from you. Thank you for being part of this community for tuning in. And I have several wonderful episodes throughout the end of the year. So keep coming back. And until we meet again. Be the light and shine the light my friend.
Let's talk about how win-based MM worked in practice, and breakdown the new ritual weapons! Trials MM Changes - 8:35 Sorrows Verse - 27:38 Servant Leader - 42:58 Punching Out - 55:52
Our sponsor: Houghton Hornswww.houghtonshorns.comKaren Houghton has been a private horn instructor for over forty years and has taught in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for the past thirty years. During this time, she has had over one hundred high school students place in the prestigious Texas Music Educators Association All-State Bands/Orchestras. Several of her former students now hold professional teaching and playing positions across the country. Karen enjoys teaching all levels and loves to see each student excel and reach their potential on the horn. She studied horn with Fred Fox at California State University, Long Beach, where she earned her bachelor's degree in music performance. Other notable teachers were James Decker, Michael Hoeltzel (HFM Detmold) and William Scharnberg. Karen has held the positions of second horn in the Long Beach Symphony, Co-Principal horn in the Orquesta Sinfonica del Valle (Cali, Colombia) and is currently 2nd horn in the Wichita Falls Symphony Orchestra, in addition to freelancing in the DFW area. Karen is an owner of Houghton Horns.Janet B. Nye, in addition to freelancing in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, has been a member of the Waco and Irving Symphony horn sections for over twenty years. Janet is enthusiastic about teaching horn and has had a successful private horn studio for over twenty-five years. Many of her former students are teaching and performing professionally today. As an active educational consultant for Houghton Horns, Mrs. Nye, along with her colleague, Karen Houghton, has presented engaging and informative horn pedagogy clinics at universities, music educator conventions, camps, schools and horn symposiums throughout the United States. They are co-authors of Recipe for Success: A balanced curriculum for young horn players, a comprehensive method book for the first three to five years of playing. The book has received international acclaim and is heralded as being “…the best and most extensive horn method to come out in a long time.” She has toured for seven summers throughout Germany with the Christian brass ensemble Eurobrass and can be heard on the 2006 GerthMedien Eurobrass recording: Give Thanks to the Lord, Danket dem Herrn. She received her BME from the University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music and her MM in Horn Performance from Baylor University. Currently, Janet resides in Arlington, Texas, with her husband Rick Nye, a Waco native, and their two sons.Support the show (https://thatsnotspit.com/support/)
Today on the podcast, we have the performer stand-up comedian, author, and Love Your Diagnosis podcaster Lainie Chait (more famously known as Electro Girl) sharing her incredible story, wisdom, and revelations from more than 20 years living symbiotically with Epilepsy. Lainie's journey with what they call 'the invisible illness' (Epilepsy) is a testimony to intuitive holistic healing and the power of transmuting trauma into something beautiful. Diagnosed with Epilepsy at the age of 19, Lainie suddenly found herself in the depths of managing an illness that her teenage self wasn't ready to accept. What followed; An integrative journey spanning over two decades of denial, rebellion, acceptance, and the birthing of a phenomenal woman dedicated to inspiring others. Lainie has written and self-published a book, Electro Girl (2017), performed a one-woman stage show, done stand-up comedy, and now hosts a podcast dedicated to sharing the stories of people like herself, who have defied the odds of their diagnosis. There is no doubt that Lainie has taken the road less traveled with her approach to living with Epilepsy. Not willing to accept a lifetime of prescribed pharmaceutical medication, she thrust herself into the throes of trauma healing, alternative medicine, research, visceral guidance, and lots of trial and error. Almost 300 tonic clonic, grand mal seizures (aka the big ones) later, she is here with a message for anyone who's had a dire diagnosis to jump in the driver's seat, direct their journey, and believe in the power to heal; However that may look. This is a truly inspiring episode laced with comedic cure and a potent message of why we need to handle our brain, nervous system, and ourselves with care. Tune in. "You've got a choice when you walk out of that doctor's office; Are you going to let someone else take charge of your life? Or are you going to be in the driver's seat? If you have to use the medicine, great, but I encourage people through my experience and other people's stories to be back in the driver's seat of this. And research, that's been the message so far from everyone. At the end of each podcast, I ask everyone to say a little tip for someone going through it. And it's always research, go and get second opinions and be in it. Be right in it, right in it. Don't let anyone control how you look at your health and how you heal". - Lainie Chait Mason and Lainie discuss: Trauma and Epilepsy. Understanding Epilepsy. What triggers seizures? Healing through comedy. Over-prescribed pharmaceuticals. Allopathic vs holistic healing approach. Lainie's healing protocols and supplements. Lainie's diet; What she avoids and what helps. Taking care of the brain and nervous system. Who is Lainie Chait? Lainie Chait is an author, performer, podcaster, and stand-up comedian. Lainie is a big advocate for people treating themselves holistically, and exploring healing modalities outside of allopathic diagnosis/treatment. In 2017 Lainie self-published her autobiography, ‘Electro Girl', a story of her journey living a symbiotic existence with Epilepsy for 16 years. In 2021 Lainie started a podcast called Love your Diagnosis, which takes a weekly look into the lives of people who have been diagnosed with a condition/illness. The interviews find a flow and dialogue around the choices and changes people start to make in their lives when they learn that they have to live with dis-ease, partially brought about by their choices. Lainie believes a diagnosis can be seen as a gift if you look at it as a second chance to get to know and treat yourself in a more loving way. If you would like to connect or work with Lainie, please explore the links below. CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST Resources: Electro Girl Book Electro Girl website Lainie Chait Twitter Lainie Chait Linkedin Love your Diagnosis podcast Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify! Check Out The Transcript Here: Mason: (00:00) Hey, Lainie. Lainie Chait: (00:01) Hi, Mason. Mason: (00:02) We're back. Lainie Chait: (00:02) We are, we are. Mason: (00:04) We tried again, but it was retrograding too hard that day. Lainie Chait: (00:08) For both of us. My little thing that I'm going to bring out, malfunctioned, but I fixed that because of retrograde, which is good. Mason: (00:15) I had, I think, for the first time ever not... I hit record, and then I'm going to blame the laptop and the fact that that just didn't record. All right, but good. We're off and running again. Lainie Chait: (00:27) We are. Mason: (00:29) You're just an interesting person. I mean, everyone's had a little bit of an intro, but do you want to just get everyone caught up on who you are and what you're working on? Lainie Chait: (00:40) This book is part of a bigger... Well, this was actually the start of it. I wrote this book, because I was diagnosed with epilepsy at 19, and I just wasn't prepared to accept that I had it. I was just not interested in knowing that my brain was going to work against me to live a normal life. Yeah? This is like a dialogue around my journey and of basically how I came to deny it, rebel against it, accept it, and then use supplementation and even products of yours, which is why I want to... been so interested to talk to you, about how to control and manage the seizures and the brain farts with a holistic approach, not just throwing pills into my face. Mason: (01:32) How long did you get swept up in the, this is your new normal? Lainie Chait: (01:37) I hid it for the first four years, in my teenage years. I was too afraid to tell anyone about it. At that stage, I had the seizures that were just kind of jerking, and just like jerks, and maybe hiccups and things like that, but I hadn't had any tonic-clonic seizures, the big fall to the ground seizures. The scary ones that people are often scared about. It was only when I started drinking and dating, and introducing teenage stuff into your life that you're just not prepared for really, that the big seizures started to happen. At 19, my mum saw that going on and then it was seven years of doctors. Mason: (02:24) What's the... Okay, because you call it, it's like the silent... Lainie Chait: (02:27) The silent disease, I think they call it. Mason: (02:29) Disease. Yeah. I mean, I was like is disease even there, but yeah, that's I guess, kind of appropriate based on the west. Lainie Chait: (02:34) Oh, no. Invisible illness. Mason: (02:35) Yeah. The invisible illness. Yeah. It's a little bit more gentle. Lainie Chait: (02:38) Yeah, it is. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (02:43) You were bringing it up in reading your email. I was like, "Yeah," and I know maybe a couple of people that have told me, in the past, how they dealt with their epilepsy, but just the walking around while you have a sign, that did like you, that you have a sign on telling people, any point you're going to be going into a fit. You can't do that, so how is your life get affected? Lainie Chait: (03:05) Well, I guess for me, luckily, because there's 40 different types of epilepsy, right? Which I didn't know that at the time. I just thought there was the small ones called absence seizures, where your brain just shuts down for a second, and you have like a minute, maybe two minutes where you're just out, but you're not jerking or you don't drop or anything like that. They're called absence seizures. I did have a few of them when I was younger, but for me, it's all been about the grand mal, the tonic-clonic ones. Lainie Chait: (03:36) I saw my first seizure in hospital when they did all the tests and I had to stay inside and get my head all... They had a big turban with EEG and I was hooked up to a machine, so I was about 19 when that happened, and I saw and heard my first seizure from someone else in hospital doing the same thing. From that moment on my ego and myself went, "Oh, there's no way, there is absolutely no way I'm going to let anyone see me like this, no way. It's too scary. Mason: (04:07) So you just stopped heading out. Lainie Chait: (04:09) No, I just hid it. If I felt like I was going to have one I'd fuck off and do it alone, Mm-hmm (affirmative). Or, risking death. My ego was stronger than my logic to get help or tell people, or... Yeah, and the fact that I kind of intuitively knew that it was an emotional... That I'd created it. I know that's weird to say, because it developed at 14 when my parents got divorced, it's not really in my family history, and the triggers that still align now are still about stuff to do with abandonment, stuff like that. Lainie Chait: (04:55) If I'm in certain situations that trigger me, there's still wired in there somewhere, even though as an adult I've totally dealt with all of that logically and done cathartic everything's, but somewhere in the wiring, there's still that little faded memory of something to do with what triggers them. That I still find really hard to break. Yeah. It's really interesting. Mason: (05:25) That still set you off? Lainie Chait: (05:27) Yeah. But it's not everything, it's just certain things. Like flashing lights, that's not my type of epilepsy. Mason: (05:34) Yeah, right. Lainie Chait: (05:35) I myth bust in this as well. I do comedy about epilepsy. I know you do comedy. One of the reasons I started to do stand up was that I wanted to do a 45 minute show on making epilepsy funny, because when you're living it, that was the way that I found that I could get over it. Understand it, break through it, because otherwise it will destroy you actually. It's a pretty shit condition. Mason: (06:07) Did you, within yourself, you made it funny or did you make it like, "If I'm going to embrace it, so it's not embarrassing. I'm going to like tell everyone, in a comedic way, that I'm dealing with this"? Lainie Chait: (06:19) Okay. Here's a joke I made up. "Why did the epileptic chicken cross the road?" Mason: (06:25) It's already funny, yeah. Why? Lainie Chait: (06:27) "Because it couldn't fit on the sidewalk." I mean, it's not funny, but it's funny. Anyway, therefore I think that's it. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (06:40) Do other people that have the epilepsy get offended by you taking the piss out of it, or have you got a hall pass? Lainie Chait: (06:46) I think, in this world of PC, way too PC, I've definitely got a hall pass. I got a hall pass as a comedian, to being a woman, so I can say anything I like about being a woman, epilepsy, and being Jewish. Mason: (07:00) Are you Jewish as well? Lainie Chait: (07:01) Yeah. Mason: (07:02) Gosh. Yeah. Lainie Chait: (07:02) I've got passes in comedy that... Mason: (07:04) It's like what Lee, the dentist in Seinfeld, going for complete immunity, complete comedy immunity. Yeah. And becoming a Jew was the last one, I think, for him. Lainie Chait: (07:18) That's right. I remember that. I remember that. Yeah. I don't know. I think the hall pass is out of respect, because I'm allowing people to understand it rather than be scared of it. The jokes that I make about it is more about looking at it from a perspective of, "Oh, I don't need to be scared of that then. Okay." All the things, that you can swallow, that there's a stigma or a myth that you can swallow your tongue, bring light to that, because it's so not... That's just impossible. To swallow a tongue. It's connected. The myth is to swallow the tongue, but actually, because it falls back into the mouth it blocks the airways and that's when the trouble can happen, so just will, as a muscle that's limp, block the airway. Mason: (08:13) What about treatment-wise? What were you told the rest of your life was going to look like after you got diagnosed? Lainie Chait: (08:20) Medication for ever. No late nights, no parties. Mason: (08:27) Is this at 14? Lainie Chait: (08:30) No, I hid it. Mason: (08:32) You hid it from like everyone even- Lainie Chait: (08:33) Everyone. Mason: (08:33) Yeah, right, medical profession. Lainie Chait: (08:35) Everyone. It was my little dirty little secret, but I didn't know what was going on. It's in the book though. Mason: (08:43) Yeah, okay. Lainie Chait: (08:43) Very interesting. Mason: (08:50) Everyone listening, we've gone live on Instagram as well. The book we're referring to, I know I've already mentioned it, but it's Electro Girl, but yeah, if you hear us talking to the viewers. Lainie Chait: (09:01) Yes. We've got two sides. Yeah. It was the doctors. It was lots of tests all the time. Yeah, it was pretty grim, and I guess being quite a stubborn personality in myself, when I was diagnosed, I just kind of went, "Oh, I'm caught, I'm caught. I've got no choice. I'll just sort of bend over for a little bit," and then the medicine, it just kept being thrown one on top of the other, because one wasn't enough and then another wasn't enough, and so there was a cocktail. That was creating all these co-morbidities of depression and I'm like, "Fuck, do I really actually want to live like this when I think that it's emotional?" So I brought that to the doctor's attention and they're like, "Nah, it's not. It's something in your brain." Mason: (09:51) Do doctors know what emotions are? Lainie Chait: (09:53) I don't know. Any doctors out there? Just text in. Mason: (09:59) But, I mean, that's a common theme. I think everyone listening to this, not just on this podcast, probably everything that everyone's listening to, just realising there's that crusty institution that's so good at particular things, but then stepping outside and acknowledging, even when... I don't know whether you're an example of this, you may just say you go back to that doctor and say, "Hey, dead set, look at this. This happens, epilepsy happens, because of emotions, and then I deal with those emotions down the track, and I see symptomatology go down." I'm just kind of like putting words in your mouth, and I'll let you tell the story of what actually happened. Mason: (10:33) Or it's the same, I've got friends with cancer all of a sudden coming back and the tumor is halved in size and they go, "Oh gosh, whatever you're doing," it's the same thing, "whatever you're doing, keep on doing it." "Do you want to know what's happening?" "No, absolutely not. You're an outlier. You're a bloody miracle, but I don't want to tell anyone about that miracle, because..." I don't know. It's one problem. Lainie Chait: (10:56) Well, it's about trials you see, and in a world of being sued, they have got the blinkers on a little bit. I mean the involvement of CBD, maybe some doctors have gone, "Oh, okay. I'll just, maybe 45 degree my blinkers a little bit," because there is some evidence around that, but even with what you do and making claims, and I worked for the Happy Herb Company for many, many years and I mean, it's all just about claims, and what you can and can't say, and what you can and can't... Yeah. Claim that works or doesn't work, it's so individual. Yeah. My doctor still kind of says to me that whatever I'm doing, it's sort of like, he humours me. It's like "Great, great. That's really good." Yeah, exactly the same sort of thing, but he won't kind of give it a lot of merit. Mason: (11:55) I guess, it's not his problem either. He works within an institution that's effective in some capacity and that's like all doctors. They're not revolutionaries. If you're revolutionary, you don't go into one of the most stagnant institutions that you can possibly go into. Lainie Chait: (12:13) Yeah. Mason: (12:13) You just hope sometimes they're not bought into the religion of it, and they're at least realise, "Yeah, this is the way we do things over here, and I hope that everyone else has the capacity to go and evolve along with us, for our collective intention of keeping humanity healthy." Lainie Chait: (12:28) That's right. I suppose they're very, fix the symptom, and alternative medicine are, look at where the problem's coming from. That's kind of, intuitively, what I decided, that that's the approach I wanted to take. Seven years I gave it a go and I became a zombie, and started smoking a lot of gunjah to balance out the fact that I felt like a zombie and that just made me more zombie. At 28, I just woke up and went, "Oh, fuck I can't do this anymore at all," so I did that classic, stereotypical, Saturn return. Quit the job, left the boyfriend, bought a Kombi, drove up to Nimbin. Mason: (13:09) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Nice. That's fitting. Lainie Chait: (13:12) Yes. You've been wanting to say that, haven't you? Mason: (13:17) Oh, that was 10 seconds ago, I was like, "All right, all right, I've got one." Lainie Chait: (13:21) You've been dying to say it. Mason: (13:22) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lainie Chait: (13:25) Yeah, I just thought there's got to be people that understand that there's another way to do this, and there was. Not long after that, I met Ray and Eliza from Happy Herbs, and it was that fate thing. Yeah. Oh, look, there's just so many incarnations of it, because I was then so committed and so obsessed with healing it. Curing it though, instead of... I went all the way over the other side. I went, "All right, fuck you medicine. I'm going to go over here and completely just immerse myself in everything, and I want to cure this. I want to be the first girl to cure her epilepsy," because I kept using that word cure. Cure, cure, and that was a big mistake. Mason: (14:15) Was the mistake... I mean, because there is an initiation period where the way you approach it, if you come from a colonised Western medical mind set, you have to use the word cure to even get... but then I think we see it a lot in the health scene as people just hang on too long in being a patient. You're trying to work with the natural, but with the kinds of conversation of the synthetic Western model, and you hang in there too long. Is that what you mean? Lainie Chait: (14:47) Yeah. I hung in there a bit, but I think the dialogue should have been more about how can I treat and manage this, because there is a part of my brain that has got a low seizure threshold. Yeah? Mason: (14:58) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lainie Chait: (14:58) That part is the part of science, and genetics and chemistry that I'll never cure. Yeah? Mason: (15:07) That was being off in never-never land a little too much thinking, "All that data doesn't apply to me." That's how I was with my mum when my mum had an aneurysm. It ripped me down emotionally, because I was like, "Nah, we're going to defy the odds here," and you probably did, and we did as well, but when you're that out of reality, and pie in the sky, and looking for miracles, it just doesn't help that much, does it? Lainie Chait: (15:33) Yeah. Well, I would pay someone to heal me. That was the other thing, I'd be like, "Here, take the money that I really should be paying rent for or buying some very healthy food for. Take this because wow, I've read your thing and it said, 'you can perform miracles,'" so I would pay, just a shit tonne of healers, of every different modality. Moxa sticks. I mean, who the fuck can cure epilepsy with a moxa stick? Tell me. Mason: (16:02) It depends on whether they've looked at the classics. The classic Chinese texts maybe have some secret little formula there. Lainie Chait: (16:08) Well, it didn't frigging work. Mason: (16:10) No, I imagine it wouldn't. It doesn't feel like it's in the ballpark of moxa. Lainie Chait: (16:17) But I was a little bit obsessed to do it that way, so I went all the way over that side and things were working, but there's still the underlying problem, and the story that was in my brain, and the neural pathways that were leading to the seizures were still in place. You can't outsource that. You can't outsource how your brain is wired. That's the work you have to do yourself, and that's what I didn't realise in my twenties and early thirties, is that I actually had to go deep into the ugliness of when they started, why they started. I created a journal for about four months in my late twenties to document everything around what was happening. Lainie Chait: (17:13) I started to go, "All right, maybe moxa sticks, won't cure it. Let's see what actually else is going on here," so I wrote down what I ate, what I drank, who I'd slept with. Did I fight with anyone? What supplements was I taking? Everything, and then got a list of actually, "Oh, there's a bit of a pattern occurring here," and then started to really appreciate what I was bringing to the table. How I was making myself an epileptic. How I had created this, and so I've been on a journey ever since to just go from total denial and rebellion to now preaching a message of personal responsibility and what you bring to your conditions. That's why I wrote that. You don't have to have epilepsy to get messages from this. It's actually quite across the board, but it does, obviously, specify my journey with epilepsy. Mason: (18:18) That personal responsibility one, and I think that freaks people out. We just came out with a little... We're testing out having a line of apparel called Sovereign, and essentially exploring that. I think there's a lot of people looking at the common law kind of sovereignty, kind of side of things that's been hijacked over there versus the sovereignty of your greatest capacity to take on responsibility for your reality. I think people get confused, because just if you start taking on extreme personal responsibility, especially in a healing sense, does that mean you don't go and interact with particular institutions sort of thing? Not the case. Lainie Chait: (19:00) Not the case. I think you need guidance, mentors and all that sort of stuff as well, because also again, you can over heal. You can get into that space where you're not living life anymore and you're just like going, "Oh, I shouldn't eat that because it might do this," you know? Mason: (19:19) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lainie Chait: (19:19) It's this fine balance of what personal responsibility looks like to you and how you can still enjoy your life. I don't wear a halo. I know that there's stuff that I do now that potentially will bring on some electrical unrest, but I go, "Well, you know what? I've done really well to be alive." I've had nearly 300 grand mal seizures. Most of which were on my own. There is a thing called SUDEP. Have you heard of SUDEP? It's an acronym, it's sudden, unexpected death in epilepsy, and it happens around that age group where I chose to have just a lot of seizures. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (20:04) Okay. When you're taking personal responsibility, is that in the fact that I'm inside my body, I'm going to be ultimately the one that's going to be able to put this much time and understanding what's emotionally triggering me or what environmentally was doing it? Lainie Chait: (20:18) What foods you're eating that might be contributing to the way that your body functions. Mason: (20:25) Do you talk about what you found the pattern to be? Lainie Chait: (20:28) Yeah. Mason: (20:29) Can we get a snippet of it? Lainie Chait: (20:32) I should have got a few chapters- Mason: (20:34) A few excerpts. Lainie Chait: (20:34) ... a few paragraphs ready. I found that, what was diet related, yeah? Was obviously sugar and too much alcohol. The way I was thinking about relationships, because it all stemmed from when my parents got divorced, there was all this abandonment story in there about men, so I would attract that in my life. Then when I would attract men that would show kind of abandonment behaviour or things that would trigger that, that would just set me off incredibly. There's a type of epilepsy now, called catamenial epilepsy, which I used to bring to my doctor and say, "It's really weird. I just keep getting a seizure a couple of days before I get my period," and they're like, "Yeah. Okay. Well, it's probably not related." Now, it's an actual... It is a particular type of epilepsy that's related to hormones. Mason: (21:41) Mm-hmm (affirmative). But it wasn't in the textbook at the time. Lainie Chait: (21:50) It wasn't. It wasn't. Hormones. Yeah. I didn't know it then that you could supplement certain parts of your body to compensate for that hormone change, at the time that happens just before you... Mason: (22:03) Supplement even particular hormonal cascades, you mean? Or... Lainie Chait: (22:06) Yeah. There's so much around now that I don't particularly take anymore, but at the time there was like perhaps... Can't even think of the herb that I was taking just before I got my period, just to sort of balance out that oestrogen, progesterone sort of imbalance that might then set... Also, internal temperature. If you're internally hot, and that's a Chinese thing as well, if you're hot inside, then that can trigger it as well. Mason: (22:42) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. You could almost like pinpoint what kind of symptomatology, and excess heat, and excess liver heat, and all those kinds of things. Lainie Chait: (22:56) All that. Mason: (22:56) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lainie Chait: (22:56) Unless you find the right practitioner at the right time, which I did, because when I moved here, I saw a lady called Ann-Mary. She was working in the Integrative Mullum, which doesn't exist anymore, her and her hubby, and she just was spot on. She did all the tests. She worked with me. I trusted her completely. We were doing collation and she got me starting to think about magnesium. She got me starting to think about there's too much copper in my body and all the- Mason: (23:28) Oh, what a legend. Lainie Chait: (23:29) Yeah. It was like this amazing epiphany to find the right practitioner, who just guided me in the right way to actually start balancing out what was going on. At the time, also, CBD wasn't even on the radar, because this is nearly 20 years ago, so I had to go looking for little backyard people to... Mason: (23:54) Yeah. There were a few around back then. Lainie Chait: (23:55) Back then, there was a few around. Yeah, I tell you, they lived in squalor, but it's not about their lifestyle, but the thing is- Mason: (24:05) And look at them now. Look at them. Lainie Chait: (24:09) Palaces. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (24:10) Yeah. Lainie Chait: (24:15) But the one thing about that was there was not so much information. I couldn't get the dose rate. I was experimenting, big time. It backfired for me. Mason: (24:26) In what way? Just the non-standardisation? Lainie Chait: (24:29) Yeah. Backfired in the fact that I was probably taking a strain of CBD that didn't... That I was taking too much. There were no dose rates. It was kind of like, "Here, take this bottle and see you." No consistency in the medicine, obviously, because it wasn't really a medicine at the time. It was just, "Here's some..." So I overdosed. Not that you can overdose, it's a really shit word. Mason: (24:53) Saturated? Lainie Chait: (24:53) I saturated myself to the point where it was the wrong strain for what I needed, and it made me more depressed and more anxious. Then, because of that, that was the catalyst to go back to Melbourne after being here for quite a few years. Go back, and sort some shit out, because it was too unpredictable. Yeah. Lots of amazing stories. Mason: (25:26) It's like the wild west of treating yourself naturally back then. It's kind of on a platter. I wonder how many people though, because epilepsy doesn't... I mean, I just haven't thought about epilepsy, but is it one of those ones that at the moment where people are... One of the ones, I know that's insensitive, but are people immediately thinking, "Right. I'm going to go and get a naturopath here. I'm going to get my minerals tested, get my hormone panels." Is there any correlation there, do you think at all, in the wider population? Lainie Chait: (25:53) Definitely not. It's fear-based, because of the stigma around it. It's, my neurologist knows better than me. There's a lot of fear, because to have a seizure takes... They say that the impact on your body of the seizures that I have, the tonic-clonic ones, is like running a 14 kilometre marathon in that two to three minutes that you're on the floor. People don't want to experience that. It's also hard for the people watching, because I've also had experiences where people watching me, there's not much they can do, and so they go internal and it becomes about them, so they get post-traumatic kind of like stress, not a disorder. Just at the time, they're just like, "Fuck, that was intense, and I couldn't do anything to help, and I don't want to see that again." Mason: (26:48) It's like they get victimised, based on their own lack of capacity to do anything. I wouldn't say incompetence, but ... Lainie Chait: (26:59) It's just lack of knowing, I think, and having faith in themselves, because there are people that would just be all over it, be like, "Yep. Okay. I've got this. She'll come around in a couple of minutes. It'll be fine. Start watching, fuck off." Yeah, and others are like, "Oh my God, what do I do? Ring the ambulance. Oh, I can't deal with this," and then outsource it, but you don't actually need to do that. That's part of what my work now is about. Is just to educate so that... Because I believe, Mason, seriously, through what's going on, on the planet now, and how fragile the brain is. Anyone can have a seizure. Anyone with a brain, any mammal, animal, human, warm-blooded can have a seizure in the wrong environment, and at the moment what's happening is the very wrong environment in the world. You are considered an epileptic if you have two seizures, that's it. If you have two seizures in your life, you are then claimed by the epilepsy people. Mason: (28:04) Are there lots of different types of medication or is it just kind of like a few standards? Lainie Chait: (28:10) There's a few standards that they rely on. There's a lot more than when I was treated 30 years ago. They're not designed specifically for epilepsy, so it's a massive guessing game. They've got their like, "Okay, you're displaying with these kinds of things, so we'll try this." Yeah? "And if not, we'll throw that on top." Yeah. I mean, I've heard about lots of people. I mean, I, myself was on 1500 milligrammes of different drugs at one stage, but that was just way too much. People are on 3000 milligrammes of drugs. I mean, that may not actually, in this conversation, mean anything, but it's a lot, it's a lot. Mason: (29:01) Yeah. I mean, it's slightly... I mean, I have a friend at the moment, she was having... Well, she didn't know what was going on there for a few weeks and then got the diagnosis of been a brain tumour and then was told that she was having these little fits, and now she's been diagnosed as epileptic, and that's the one medication that she's on while she's trying to find her way around that whole conversation and getting on. Are you on medication at the moment? Do you mind me asking? Lainie Chait: (29:32) I had a hip replacement this year and it was advised that I go back on, what they call a small dose, but what I call big enough. Yeah? For someone that wanted to do it without it, but actually, because it was the unknown, and because I've been fighting the medical industry for so long, and pharmaceutical industry, and going... This time, it was all just about yes, because this was all foreign to me. To be cut open and things that I hadn't experienced, so I didn't know how my brain was going to... Mason: (30:06) Acute times like that, Western medicine comes in. Lainie Chait: (30:08) Yeah. That's right. Mason: (30:10) Just like a little bit of padding. That's like what I'm watching my friend go through just trying to have, cool, get that little bit of padding, get that diagnostics. Utilising it appropriately, and then for the fits are one thing and then the tumour is another, but the... Lainie Chait: (30:26) But they all stem from the same thing, which is abnormal electrical activity. That's really all it is. That's all epilepsy is. It's abnormal electrical activity that is fueled by fuck, who knows, everyone's different. I think there's a lot of people with epilepsy that are living lives that bring them on. That are just ignoring stuff that they've been maybe just too hard trauma. There's big dialogue around trauma at the moment. Mason: (30:59) Huge, isn't it? Yeah. Lainie Chait: (31:00) Yeah. Mason: (31:00) That's great. Lainie Chait: (31:00) It's really interesting. Really interesting. Yeah, the trauma's just too deep and too dark to go into, and too painful, and so it represents in abnormal electrical activity that perhaps could be padded with dealing with some of that. Mason: (31:17) What have you found has been effective for you? To go into the trauma into the dark places? Lainie Chait: (31:26) Well, no one would ever let me do an Ayahuasca journey because the facilitators were too nervous, I suppose, is what has been reflected back to me. I haven't been able to journey in that way, so it's all had to be talking, experiencing, watching, observing, understanding, and kind of making peace with writing this book, I suppose. Yeah. I think I went to a hypnotist once and this past life... Depending on who you talk to, this past life stuff coming for me to fix it, and find peace. It was a test, it was a fricking good test, I tell you. Mason: (32:28) Yeah. It's like, "Yeah, thanks for that." Lainie Chait: (32:33) But, it's been such a gift. Such a gift, because I have a really big understanding of how you create your reality. Yeah. When I didn't, I would be on the floor convulsing, if I went against that. Mason: (32:58) I was going to ask you about neurofeedback and that's the neurofeedback, I guess, right there for you. It's like a giant neurofeedback machine, which the brain is at all times, but whether you've been intentional about the way that you're creating your life or not, for you to go to have that much of it extremely thrown in your face. Lainie Chait: (33:17) Well recently, what was interesting is that I was seizure free for a while, and then I had to move house. I had to move house four times within a year. Each time, of those four times, two weeks after I'd moved in, I had a seizure. When I looked and analysed, and maybe had a look into that, what was happening, it was more about coming back to that place when my home was torn apart at 14, and I didn't know, and I didn't feel safe, and I didn't have a base. That made heaps of sense to me. Why would it happen every time I moved two weeks after? It's this feeling of just instability. Mason: (34:08) Yeah. That wouldn't be, because I think they say that moving house is in the top two most stressful things you can do, but if it was cortisol level related, that would most likely be during the move, but no. Lainie Chait: (34:21) No. No, it was kind of when I was just feeling a little bit settled, and then I would wake up and within... Mine usually happened in the morning, so I would... Yeah, it would happen. I'd get warning, and now I know to brace myself. I used to just go, "No, I'm going to win this, not you, brain." That could be a good time to bring out... Oh, so me and my brain have a dialogue. Mason: (34:54) [crosstalk 00:34:54]. Lainie Chait: (34:54) This is going to be hard for people listening, but ... Mason: (34:58) It's okay. Let's get some fun voices. Lainie Chait: (35:02) I turned this book into a stage show, and the best way that I could explain about the dialogue between me and my brain, and the relationship, was to actually get a puppet made of my brain. So if you could see it, "Hello, I'm Norah, how are you? Named after Bloody Norah, which if you're an Australian, it's very easy." We did a show together at the Melbourne Fringe Festival, and I got her in... I had different LED lights put in her. "Yeah. One's really exciting. Look at this one. Whoa, that's like..." Mason: (35:43) I'm looking at Lainie's purple brain. The brain's got her hand up the clacker, and there's some big, bright, fantastic lipstick, and now it is lit up like a Christmas tree. Lainie Chait: (35:55) Yep. This is the explanation of what happens in the electrical storm, during a seizure, because there's no pathways that it can relate to. Right? Then this one, you can explain that one. Mason: (36:09) Well, it's all looking connected. We look like we got some flow electrically. Lainie Chait: (36:15) There's a little bit of flow. This is more about trying to find, after a seizure, just trying to find the pathways back to what normal is. Yeah? What a functioning... This is just kind of going, "Oh yeah. Okay. What's that one. Where can I find out my arm moves?" Mason: (36:36) What colour are we there again? Lainie Chait: (36:36) This is just normal. "Normal. That's what you call yourself. Huh? Normal. I don't think so." This is just a normal brain. "Hello?" Yeah, so- Mason: (36:51) Okay, [inaudible 00:36:51] the back. Lainie Chait: (36:51) Okay, [inaudible 00:36:51] the back. Yeah. Mason: (36:51) When was the fringe show? Obviously it was 2019, maybe? Lainie Chait: (36:56) Yeah. Mason: (36:57) Was it? Yeah. Lainie Chait: (36:57) Certainly was. Mason: (36:57) Thought it [inaudible 00:36:59] been on before? Lainie Chait: (37:00) Yeah. I'll leave her, this one's the nice one. I'll leave it on that. Yeah, it was 2019, and not only made her Scottish, I don't know why, because you're a comedian so you push yourself, I suppose. Never been a puppeteer, so I was struggling with so many firsts. So many firsts. Using a puppet, being on stage and learning my lines for a one hour show with dialogue between me and her. It was amazing, amazing. Used lots of lion's mane, Mason, during that time. Mason: (37:37) Did you? Yeah, cool. Lainie Chait: (37:38) Got off the booze. Yeah. Used a shit tonne of lion's mane around then. Yes. It just worked incredible. Yeah. Mason: (37:48) I mean, she is wonderful. May I say so? Lainie Chait: (37:51) Do you want to feel her? Mason: (37:51) Absolutely. Lainie Chait: (37:51) Do you want to put your hand in the clacker? Mason: (37:54) I do want to put my hand in her clacker. Lainie Chait: (37:56) It doesn't... Oh, you did. You changed her. Mason: (38:00) Oh, I changed her. Oh, wow. Oh whoa. Oh, now we're on. Lainie Chait: (38:02) "Oh, he's turning me on. He's turning me on.I don't think I've ever had a man's hand in my clacker." Mason: (38:08) Well. Oh no. I turned her off. Lainie Chait: (38:12) Yeah. Mason: (38:12) God, I have. Oh yeah. Oh gosh. Well, yeah, you got to be on. You need nimble fingers. Lainie Chait: (38:24) Yeah. Just, yeah, you... She gives me a lot of shit, so I tell a story and she's like, "That's not how it actually went. You drank too much and you fucked too many guys." Anyway... Oh, sorry. Mason: (38:39) That's okay. So she's cheeky? Lainie Chait: (38:41) She's really cheeky. She's sassy. Mason: (38:47) I understand, comedy for me has been healing. It's been a way for me to reclaim parts of myself, which I'd allowed to be swallowed up by my egoic pursuit to be something else, and also, getting swallowed up by my own stage persona, and comedy was my way to take the piss out of myself and come back down to earth. I can imagine for you, this on a whole nother level. Lainie Chait: (39:10) It is. Mason: (39:11) Do you get that stage clarity when you're up there? It's like when you're in your zone, it's like a professional tennis player, the ball slows down and all of a sudden you can be in your show, and you can be in your lines, and you can be fretting about what line's coming up, but then you go above yourself and you start doing... You've got some kind of healing and observation about what's actually... Making connections that are beyond... You couldn't have done it anywhere else, except on stage and in the middle of a show. Lainie Chait: (39:39) Well, that's where I plan to get to. The director that did the first run with me, she was amazing. She was very lines based and I'm on stage, when I can riff a bit and I can get off that script. I work so much better like that, but with this particular first run of the show, and if anyone's a director out there I am looking for one, because I'm looking for... to bring this back to the stage. It's a fantastic show actually. Yeah. I'm looking for a way to be able to have a little bit of fun with it, but a little bit off script as well, but still knowing what I want the message to be, but having a bit more of a riff with her, because she's talking for all brains. She's sitting on her pedestal talking for all people's brains saying, "Take care of us, just take care of us. We're everything" Mason: (40:49) Before we go, where are you at in practical terms? What are your favourite little brain healing activities and supplements, or whatever it is? Lainie Chait: (41:01) It's a good question. I'm taking some CBD, and I am also taking lion's mane. I am taking vitamin B, B12. Very good for... and magnesium. Now, I kind of let the supplement call me. It's like, "Okay, well, you need a bit more of this, or your adrenals are a bit low, so I'll go for the Jing. Mason: (41:30) Then you go intuitive after a while, don't you? Lainie Chait: (41:33) You do, you just do. I mean, supplements or vitamins are a bit... The same with any kind of medicine. It's like, you don't want to rely too much on any one thing. You want your body to sort of like get a big hit of it and then see what it can do itself. In the work that I'm doing now, can I just plug my podcast? [crosstalk 00:41:55] one. Mason: (41:55) Yeah, absolutely. Lainie Chait: (41:56) I now do a podcast called Love your Diagnosis, and what that is celebrating, is every week that I have a person that's been diagnosed with something, that they've found the light. They've gone on the allopathic journey and gone, "Oh, this might not be everything that I need," and they've done exactly what I did, and have just gone and riffed with the rest of the world and alternative medicines, and found ways to treat and manage, not cure, but treat and manage the stuff that's going on for them, so they can live a really fun, healthy lifestyle. Yeah, if you've got a story like that, please hit me up. I'd love to have you on the podcast. Mason: (42:38) I mean, that is fascinating, because that's a dark night of the soul sometimes. Like a lot of people, it's too scary to go into that darkness, to go off on your own. Yeah. I mean, especially if you think that it's one or the other. You just said allopathic going, "Okay, maybe that's not everything, and I need to make some other considerations," but that's you. Again, I'm watching a friend go through that at the moment, going, it's either open up your brain, they take your skull off and cut out this tumour, or go down your own route for however long. It's that moment, those crossroads, I guess. You talk about those crossroads a lot. Lainie Chait: (43:15) Totally. Yeah, and all sorts of different diagnosis, and some really slips of gold in there for people, because I think when you get diagnosed with something like this. Lainie Chait: (43:39) You've got a choice, when you walk out of that doctor's office, am I going to let someone else take charge of my life? Or am I going to be in the driver's seat of it? If I have to use the medicine, great, but I encourage people through other people's stories to be back in the driver's seat of this. Research, that's been the message so far from everyone at the end, because I ask everyone to say a little tip for someone going through it. Research, don't take your first... Always go and get second opinions and be in it, be right in it, right in it. Don't let anyone control how you look at your health and how you heal. Mason: (44:27) That's where Western, I guess, comfort path of least resistance, automation. That's where it can come and bite you on the arse. If you've been living that life of just cushy Western life, and you get that first diagnosis and you go, "Cool, got no choice. This is what you do." Right? It's a shame, just how much we've given away that power. Not to say that we don't make a choice fully to go allopathic or whatever. Lainie Chait: (44:58) Right. Yeah. But I think there are also a lot of people that are like, just give me the magic pill. I want to forget about it. I just want to get back to normal. I mean, we're seeing that today, still. It's fear-based. It just requires a lot less time to maybe take the pills, but I think at the end of the day, there's a sacrifice that you give over when you have that mentality of just throw the pills down. There is a sacrifice, whether it's stated or not, I believe there's a sacrifice your handover when you say, "Give me the pills," to your overall life on this planet and living to its fullest. Mason: (45:46) Mm-hmm (affirmative). It is confronting. I can see why it's a very confronting thing, because if you do take responsibility and say, "I'm fully going to make this decision," you then have to acknowledge all the other decisions that you possibly could have made, and that you don't know what the outcome is going to be, so it's not just the way that it's presented now, when you go, "Look, your only choice right now is whatever, chemotherapy." That's your only choice, and so people go, "Okay, cool. It's my only choice. I do it." Then whatever the outcome is, they're like, "Oh, well, wouldn't have turned out any other way. That was the only choice." Very easy. Although it's hard going through something like chemo, it's a very easy way of approaching something, which is... and I get it. I haven't had to be... I've watched lots of people go down that route. Mason: (46:36) It's nice, even those friends that have gone for chemo, they've gone, "I know all my other options, and I'm the one... I'm not doing this because the allopathic doctors are getting their kick back, and all they can do is say, 'This is what you need to do, and anything else is unethical.'" They're like, "I'm making that decision fully, because I know." Then also, that gives them the opportunity to go, "Well, I'm not just going to play their game. I'm actually going to be engaged with my treatment and make sure that I come out the other side of life," but it can be harrowing to take that responsibility. Lainie Chait: (47:05) Very, and the guy that I just did a podcast with, with colorectal cancer, he has some incredible information about his journey. Yeah, I recommend it to everyone, Love your Diagnosis. This last one, he had just incredible stuff that he... He's not saying chemo's a bad thing. He's just saying, "In my case, I did this, this, this, and this, and I cured it." Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (47:33) Sounds like a legend. Lainie Chait: (47:34) Amazing. So, yeah. Mason: (47:39) Yeah. I wonder if your podcast will start getting featured in little doctor's Facebook groups. Lainie Chait: (47:48) As don't listen? Mason: (47:49) Yeah. Yeah, you're a quack. Lainie the quack. Lainie, thanks for coming along and sharing your story. Lainie Chait: (47:57) That is my pleasure, and we're giving away a book? Mason: (48:00) Yeah. We're giving away a book. Hopefully you guys are up to date. Hopefully you're up to date on the podcast schedule, and you're in time for you to go over to the SuperFeast Instagram and go in the draw right now. You guys, you're onto it. Look at you guys. Thank you so much for hanging around and watching the live. That's like... Lainie Chait: (48:24) It's amazing. Thank you. Mason: (48:25) That is amazing, and thanks for everyone for listening. What's the best place for everyone to find you? Lainie Chait: (48:30) Well, Electro Girl Productions is on Facebook, and just lain_star on Insta, I suppose that's probably the... Then private message me if you want to be part of the podcast, or if you just want to talk epilepsy, because I know it, so if you're out there, the invisible illness, it doesn't have to be so invisible. Talk to me. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: (48:50) Thanks so much. Lainie Chait: (48:52) Thanks. Dive deep into the mystical realms of Tonic Herbalism in the SuperFeast Podcast!
Urinary tract infections can be really irritating... especially when recurrent!As is always the case, we are not intending to diagnose or treat any condition but to better understand what is happening in the body and support ourselves in maintaining balance, naturally.Today we talk about the root causes and some accessible and easy ways to manage symptoms as the body heals itself.Do keep in mind that UTIs can advance to cause a kidney infection which is an emergent condition!If you'd like to join these conversations live, join the Plant Based & Stress Free FB group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/alterhealthSome highlights from today's MM episode...- UTIs are primarily due to E Coli bacteria- E Coli come from the rectum, mainly introduced through eating chicken- WFPB eating supports the microbiome and immune system in maintaining balance- D-mannose is a compound that helps prevent E Coli from attaching to the urinary tract, allowing it to be flushed down the toilet!- D-mannose is abundant in cranberry juice, hence the common natural remedy- Other herbs can be helpful in the resolution of UTI symptoms- Hydration and hygiene are also super important!Links to some more good stuff- Join the Plant Based &. Stress Free FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/alterhealth- Cleanse with Us during the next Alter Health Cleanse: https://www.alter.health/cleanse- Work with us in the Thrive on Plants program: https://www.alter.health/thrive-on-plants- ATTN Health Practititioners! Learn more and apply to the Plant Based Mind Body Practitioner Program: https://www.alter.health/pbmb-practitionerPeace and Love.
In this episode, the M&M brothers ask you an important question. Where were you a year ago? Why is it important to ask this before the year is over? Ask a better question, get a better answer. Stay blessed! *This episode is sponsored by The GAPAPS Success Blueprint - 6 Simple Steps to Lifelong Success ©2021 FINANCIALLY ALERT LLC & SUCCESS BY CHOICE INC. All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this podcast is for general education purposes only. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage derived from the information provided.
Listen to us talk more about our Vegas trip, Seven Magic Mountains, peeing Dr Pepper, the Strip, quality sleep, expensive burgers, M&M store, The Rescuers, Eggslut, hat day, Tournament of Kings, Pizza Cake, drunk racing, Twilight Zone mini golf, Bellagio fountains, Topgolf, buffet hate, Mandalay Bay aquarium, Pinball Hall of Fame, cat buttholes, racist games, wine in the tub, running out of gas, Splitwise, Mick's Switch, and Vegas trivia. Starring David Parker, Landon Browning, Mick Parker, Wil Dobratz, and Colby Chapman. Recorded October 25th, 2021. Thanksgiving foods to NFL Quarterbacks
Jerome Myers is a corporate America dropout who helps others exit the Matrix. He is the Founder of Dream Catchers; Owner of The Myers Development Group; Founder of Myers Methods; Co-Host of the Compression Podcast; and a Life Coach for Guards Down. Jerome's story:From the outside looking in, everything in my world was going to plan. My career was attached to a rocket. I was already making over 100 k, and I just finished my MBA at night. I'd married my college sweetheart a few years earlier, and our first daughter was happy and healthy. I had money in the bank, a huge house, my dream car, and the ability to travel out of the country regularly, but I was empty on the inside. I think most of us are like that.We are silently asking ourselves, is this all there is to life?Finally, I started asking my friends this same question and realized they were asking it too.I decided we have to fix this.After building a 20 MM division at a construction company and having to layoff my teammates two years in a row, I'd had enough and decided to become a full-time real estate entrepreneur.My approach to (YOU):In my approach to coaching we use trust, openness, compassion and direct communication to guide our clients on a range of professional and personal issues. By harnessing the power of counseling, consulting and mentoring we help them find their inspiration and use it as fuel to build the life they desire.Our process is simple, we gain clarity around the current situation, perform a gap assessment to see what resources are missing, then create a customized strategy that delivers RESULTS.Service offered:► 1 on 1 transformational coaching► Leadership training► Small group coaching► Corporate exit plans► Multifamily real estate coachingTo learn more, schedule a 15-minute consult https://calendly.com/d3v3loping/15-mi...----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Link to the “Centered Life” graphic:www.dreamsshouldbereal.com/welcome33307262You know what's holding you back?The story you're telling yourself. Book recommendation:The Four Agreements: www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom-ebook/dp/B005BRS8Z6Connect with Jerome:Website: www.dreamsshouldbereal.comLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jeromemyers
Brahman Kyrie weaves trauma-informed inner child healing, with ancient Sanskrit mantras to liberate her clients from past traumas and blockages. Her wisdom teachings, coupled with emotional mastery are potent platforms for self-realization, personal empowerment, and attaining deep peace. Om Namo Narayani.Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitCheck out Brahman Kyrie's stuff here: https://www.thebrahmanproject.com/brahmankyrieStart podcasting! These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones. You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS, https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for mobile mic for Android https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjGet A Course In Miracles Here! https://amzn.to/3hoE7sAAccess my “Insiders Guide to Finding Peace” here: https://belove.media/peaceSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media: https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: [music]0:00:05.6 Mischa Zvegintzov: Welcome back, everybody to the Tools For A Good Life Summit. And right now, I would like to introduce to you, Brahman Kyrie. Brahman Kyrie, welcome to the Summit.0:00:16.7 Brahman Kyrie: Hi, thanks so much for having me.0:00:18.9 Mischa Z: Indeed. I'm gonna read your bio real quick, if you don't mind.0:00:22.4 Brahman Kyrie: Sure.0:00:23.2 Mischa Z: Fantastic. So Brahman Kyrie is a spiritual leader and energy healer who lives here in Encinitas, California. You founded the Brahman Project, a humanitarian foundation, focused on spiritual education for the soul, sacred ceremony, meditation healing, prison rehabilitation programs, which I can't wait to talk about for a moment, support for animals, both here in the US and globally. Brahman Kyrie has also created prison ministry programs, such as Freedom on the Inside Prison Project, and... Is it PFIFER Re Entry program?0:01:08.0 Brahman Kyrie: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.0:01:08.6 Mischa Z: Yeah, PFIFER Re Entry program. Yeah. And is completely devoted to serving your community, both in the temple and in the prison. Brahman Kyrie weaves trauma-informed inner child healing, with ancient Sanskrit mantras to liberate her clients from past traumas and blockages. Her wisdom teachings, coupled with emotional mastery are potent platforms for self-realization, personal empowerment, and attaining deep peace. Om Namo Narayani.0:01:45.0 Brahman Kyrie: Om Namo Narayani. Amen.0:01:48.4 Mischa Z: Amen. Yes. So, we were... You, before we were doing this, earlier this morning, texted me a bunch of pictures from about six years ago, when we were in India. Pictures from India.0:02:08.9 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:02:09.6 Mischa Z: Yes, and we went and saw your guru.0:02:13.6 Brahman Kyrie: Went and saw Amma. There were some beautiful... I love the one in the selfie stick. I didn't really know how to use a selfie stick in, so I was taking photos and the whole selfie stick was in the photo. Did you see that? It's just really funny. Where Amma sort of... Yeah.0:02:27.5 Mischa Z: And so we saw Amma and not the hugging Amma, I know sometimes people can get confused. But we hung out with elephants, we fed orphans, we did many pujas, maybe you could tell somebody quickly what a puja is, 'cause we'll probably be talking about pujas, Satsangs, healings...0:02:54.5 Brahman Kyrie: All good stuff.0:02:56.0 Mischa Z: All good stuff. When I met you six, seven years ago, that none of it was in my radar, and all of a sudden out of a moment of spiritual desperation, the universe was like, you need to meet Brahman Kyrie and boink, there you were. So...0:03:12.2 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah. Well, I love our journey together, Mischa. I love that you came to India and all those sacred ceremonies and different things were new to me as well, and puja particularly is a sacred ceremony. It's a devotional ceremony, and the mind is a really fickle thing, and sometimes I'm a... I have a bit of an obsessive mind and I find it very hard to meditate quiet, I can't quiet my mind really... And then when we do puja, it's a ceremony where you focus your mind on something, so it can be a picture or it can be an idol, or it could be whatever, your dog or a plant or anything, you can do puja to anything, and you focus your mind on that thing and then you do like a devotional ceremony, whether that ceremony is flowers or the sacred bathing ceremony, you're pouring water on that statue or on the garden or whatever, and it actually brings in the divine energy and it expands your energy field and quietens your mind. And in that moment when you're doing the puja, it's like you're totally connected in with the divine energy. It's beautiful.0:04:27.8 Mischa Z: Yes, that's very beautiful. I've got to experience that meditation process and love it. And then Satsang, tell us what Satsang is, right? 'Cause that's a very power... Can be a very powerful experience as well, healing.0:04:44.8 Brahman Kyrie: It is very healing because it's the collective group. So Satsang means gathering of truth seekers, and so when we all get together like that and then we have this common will or the Sankalpa... The common will of the group is we want healing and freedom and liberation and activation, and so as we're chanting and we're singing and we're meditating, it's a guided meditation really, where we invoke the many name, different names and flavors of the Divine, we're multi-face, so it's like whatever you think we agree with you kind of thing, just do that follow your heart and so we invoke those names, and then we do a guided meditation, then throughout the guided meditation, there's songs that really bring in that divine energy really strongly, and then we have blessings at the end where it's like an activation of the divine energy that already lives within you, so it's kind of like that.0:05:41.7 Mischa Z: Yeah, I love that. I found it very transformational for me, just for everybody on the summit, when I met you, you encouraged me pretty quickly, "Hey, you should check out the Satsang and jump in the fray," and I was scared at first because I knew intuitively that when I breached the doorstep, that emotions were going to be let loose.0:06:12.6 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:06:12.6 Mischa Z: Tears were gonna flow, and I wasn't sure if I was ready for it. And sure enough, first Satsang I walked into I just... I don't know if you remember...0:06:26.5 Brahman Kyrie: I remember you doing all of that, yes.0:06:29.3 Mischa Z: Yes, yes. Many tears for a couple of years, but incredibly healing. I like to say that up until that point, my journey with emotions was, take on more than I was letting out. Finally, somewhere along the way, I learned how to let out what I was taking in. So I was still... But I still had all of this pent up emotion, but at least, I wasn't bringing more in, and then that was my opportunity after life got lifey to really let out emotions, very powerful. So you've since brought that into the prisons.0:07:13.5 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, totally. It's actually two of my favorite places on the planet is in here in the temple and in a prison. And it's like, I love it, and they are my people for sure. And we do Satsang there, we do trauma-informed healing, which is a lot of the private healings that I do as well is that trauma-informed healing with the inner child where we regress in a meditative kind of space. We regress back to reclaim the frozen parts of self, the little boy or the little girl that had those traumatic experiences of abandonment, rejection, or abuse, or trauma, and we reclaim those parts of us and we allow ourselves. I support the group or the person or whatever like was done for me to go back and actually feel those feelings that they weren't able to feel that time, 'cause there was a split from self. And in order to survive the trauma, there's a split that happens where we don't feel those feelings, but they get frozen inside of us. And so, part of what I'm doing in the prison and actually my whole practice is built on it is healing the inner child, the vulnerable self through reclaiming, reclaiming them, yeah.0:08:32.9 Mischa Z: Yeah. And I'll say quickly, for me, I think I'm balanced, I think... I got to do brief stints in jail in my teen years.[chuckle]0:08:45.1 Brahman Kyrie: Right. Then you know.0:08:47.4 Mischa Z: But never any serious prison time. But I think for me, I had divorce, I had career upheaval, I had another fractured relationship, so my heart was just broken when we had met. And this healing that you're talking about, it was so powerful to have a safe space to let out those emotions and to feel loved and to feel sisterhood and some motherhood and brotherhood, and really have a safe place to just sob it out.[chuckle]0:09:25.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah. And that's truly what we need. We need a safe place, safe people, we need the space that's being held, so that we can reclaim those parts and allow the heart to release that trauma.0:09:40.1 Mischa Z: Yeah. And then I know I've had an opportunity to lightly interact with some of the people that you've got to work within the prison system, and you're not just... I don't wanna... Everybody watching here, that's just a small piece of what you do, but it's so powerful that I think it's fun to talk about.0:09:57.8 Brahman Kyrie: Totally.0:10:00.0 Mischa Z: Yeah. And there's a great picture on your website, the Brahman Project, where you're leading a Satsang in Donovan State Prison and it's beautiful.0:10:13.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, with that really large group, I think you're talking about, there was 180 guys, and they said it was the first time they'd ever felt safe enough to close their eyes in prison in a group that large. And you could just feel the presence of the divine, you could feel the love. And I went in there with all of the sisterhood that you're talking about, all the Devis, the women that make up this community as well to get the blessings and...0:10:39.9 Mischa Z: Yes.0:10:40.0 Brahman Kyrie: We all went in to together. And so, it was like the feminine healing the masculine and also the masculine healing the feminine... It was this beautiful exchange that happened and it was a profound experience actually.0:10:52.1 Mischa Z: Yeah. And so you're seeing, and I get to see through the work you're doing, prisoners, there's some healing going on, so it's beautiful to see. And obviously, they're responding... Some, not everybody, but some are responding.0:11:07.7 Brahman Kyrie: A lot, a lot actually. And then the beautiful thing is when they get out, then they have also a community that they can... A spiritual community that still fosters and supports what they've been learning in there. I think, historically, there's been a little bit of a... There's been a crack in the road where people get lost when they get out, and it's like, "No, we wanna support their spiritual growth, and when they get out too, of course. And they become part of our community." That's cool.0:11:34.7 Mischa Z: Yeah, cool. And then, obviously, if we wanted to say normies, not, those of us are lucky enough that our past crimes didn't bring us to prison.[chuckle]0:11:46.2 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, yeah. Only jails. [chuckle]0:11:47.0 Mischa Z: Yeah. But you help, let's just say, plenty of normies. Let's just label ourselves as normies out there, with great access into a very healing, nurturing, spiritual community. And I like how you say it, it's open to all. Very...0:12:11.5 Brahman Kyrie: All, yeah.0:12:12.7 Mischa Z: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic. And then... I think we'll save your history, people can go to your website and learn about the before and after, right. So it's been a journey for you as well. I think it's 2006 to 2010?0:12:34.6 Brahman Kyrie: Very good. Yeah, 2006, I stopped drugging, and then away I went and in recovery and yeah.0:12:43.6 Mischa Z: Yeah. And then...0:12:44.1 Brahman Kyrie: My life wasn't always a spiritual one, let's put it that way.0:12:46.7 Mischa Z: Yeah, and... In Australia, if there was a moment where you were looking for stardom, shall we say and actually had a little bit of that, right? You got it in the movies, the commercials, the singing.0:13:02.2 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah. I was successful. I'd been doing that my whole life, so I was successful, I knew how to do it, financially, it helped me, supported me, my lifestyle, I think. And then the Divine had another plan for me, and I wasn't really ready for it. And I was kicking and screaming, "No, I wanna, get me in the door, I want the casting, I want the films and the TV stuff," and the Divine was like, "Mm, mm, mm."0:13:29.5 Mischa Z: So what year... When was that approximately that you had that?0:13:32.2 Brahman Kyrie: That was about 2010 actually. So 2006 got clean and sober, 2010, the life as I knew it as a model-actress-dancer was removed from my life and then my soul's mission dropped in.0:13:47.7 Mischa Z: It's beautiful.0:13:49.1 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.0:13:50.8 Mischa Z: Okay, fantastic. So I think let's get to the final question on how we can help people, and so I'm gonna give you a scenario and I think we can just use mine and then I'll ask you the question and... We'll go from there, okay?0:14:07.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:14:08.1 Mischa Z: Yeah, fantastic. So we've got somebody, if we think of life as a three-legged stool, relationships, finance, health, and then if we think of someone who is successful, let's say an A-type successful or once successful where two or more of those legs fall out from under them, that can be the hard thing, right. For me, so... I was successful, had the wife, the kids, the finances were in order. And then when one of those cracked, divorce and then career upheaval, and I think it's when two of those legs of the stool go out that it can get really gnarly.0:14:52.0 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:14:52.0 Mischa Z: Yeah, and so for me, up until that point, I was very much pull myself up by my bootstraps, fix it, work my way through it, success my way through it, and unfortunately the pain was too great and I needed new tools, I needed new solutions new help. And by the grace of God, I was open-minded. So given that scenario, my question to you is thinking of your tool, energy work, or however you'd like to frame it.0:15:25.8 Brahman Kyrie: Sure.0:15:27.2 Mischa Z: What are the exact next steps you would offer someone like me that was in that state, so that I knew I was headed in the new right direction that I would have positive momentum towards getting my life back on track?0:15:44.1 Brahman Kyrie: Right. Well, if you came to me as a client and that was what was going on for you, I would support you to plug in immediately to the spiritual community, whether it's this one or another spiritual community as far as people doing the same thing. As far as healing and all that kind of stuff, so you're kind of surrounded by like-minded people, because I think sometimes when we have those really big sort of catastrophes where we think our life is imploding, we can think we're the only ones, and that I think that idea can be really dangerous for us when we're trying to heal because we can go into the isolation, and we can go into all of that stuff, and it's like, well, actually it's very common, and particularly when our soul is trying to become embodied, it's like a lot of the things that were normal get removed, a lot of the things that we've relied on for our identity and stuff like that, are removed from us, and so when we are on the spiritual path, that stuff does tend to happen, so I would say, "Fear not," that's the first thing I'd say is, "Fear not, don't worry, this happens all the time," and I would get them to connect with a spiritual community, for sure, as I said, whether it was this one, or whether it was the Buddhist community, or wherever... Wherever they feel like they need to go.0:17:07.1 Mischa Z: Yeah.0:17:09.1 Brahman Kyrie: And then I would also support them, so a lot of the things that I do personally for myself when I'm...0:17:15.4 Mischa Z: Can I ask you a question before you go down that path?0:17:18.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:17:18.8 Mischa Z: When you say plug in immediately to a spiritual community...0:17:25.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:17:27.3 Mischa Z: So it's like, "Hey, start looking," right? At least start looking, explore, right, if not yours, then go walk through some door steps. Right?0:17:42.2 Brahman Kyrie: Get online. Like for people... Get online, have a look at spiritual community, different like yoga, meditation, whatever in your area, if you wanna go in person or get online and join a group. And if you were in this community, I'd say come to Satsang on a Sunday morning, or we're having this community dinner, come to that, so I just invite people to things and stuff like that, because we are meant to be in community. We're actually meant to be in community. And so that's what we got, if those legs are a bit wobbly, that's one of the first things that at a really baseline level will help us become stable again is being around other people that are doing the same thing, and get our nervous system in a place of security. So that's the first thing I'd sort say.0:18:32.0 Mischa Z: I love it.0:18:32.8 Brahman Kyrie: And because of what I do personally, like my personal practice, when I have meltdowns and bad hair days, and all of that stuff, right?0:18:41.6 Mischa Z: Yes.0:18:43.0 Brahman Kyrie: I do a lot of prayer, and I do a lot of Puja, and I also do a lot of mantra. So I know Puja might be a little outside of the box for some people, even though it's not when you keep doing it. I thought, when I first started doing it, I was like, "What the hell are these people doing? This is crazy." I don't understand... My Western brain couldn't understand it.0:19:06.0 Brahman Kyrie: So then I kept doing it though, and now it's like the energy that comes from it is palpable and it changes my vibration straightaway. But also another really easy thing to do is mantra. And there's a very simple mantra that you just said before, and that I say all the time, that covers everything is Om Namo Narayana, which in essence just means I surrender to the divine. I surrender to the power in everything. I surrender to the divine.0:19:32.5 Brahman Kyrie: And so, definitely one of my tools that I always use, if life is looking a little uncertain... I don't know where I'm going. I'm struggling with money. I'm struggling with my relationships. I feel not part of a community... Or whatever the story is, whatever is going on for me, I will spend time every day chanting mantra. And particularly that one, 'cause it's a surrender mantra. And so it's not that I'm trying to figure anything out, it's literally I'm saying, "I can't. You can." To the divine, and I'm gonna let you.0:20:09.4 Brahman Kyrie: So it's kind of that thing. And I just keep my energy there. So I make sure I pack my brain in a safe place, 'cause we're constantly creating... And when this is spinning out of control down that fear spiral of like, "I'm gonna have no money. I'm gonna be on the street... I'm gonna have no success... I'm gonna be a non-entity... I'm gonna... " When that's doing that, which is what it does, right? 'Cause it does...0:20:33.6 Mischa Z: Yes, yes.0:20:34.7 Brahman Kyrie: And I park my brain in a safe place, which is the mantra, and then I just do that consistently. And then before too long, my energy is a little bit better. And I personally do the inner child work, where is I have that... I put my hand on my heart straightaway... Like say for example, if I feel rejected or if I feel like I've been left out of something, which happened not that long ago. And so... It happens. So I had this big emotional reaction to something that wasn't even what... It was so disproportionate. So that's why I know it was my little girl... And probably some triggers from a long time ago. But I had this really big emotional reaction to not being invited to this birthday party... Just a really big reaction.0:21:25.6 Brahman Kyrie: But luckily, I knew, "Ah, this is my little girl." And so I put my hand on my heart, and I had to do this for a few days. And I just said to her, "I'm right here. I'm not leaving you. You are totally lovable. I love you. I see you. I hear you, and I'm not leaving you." So I had to... I really let her know that no matter what she feels like she's been not a part of, that she is the biggest part of my heart. She's the most important person to me. And when I do that, my whole energy changes and then I feel, "You know what... It's okay. Everything's okay." Everything's alright.0:22:06.7 Mischa Z: Yeah. I love that. And we can use vibration and energy interchangeably, right? 'Cause I think sometimes we'll say, "My vibration changes." And it's almost... You could say, "I got a better attitude."0:22:18.2 Brahman Kyrie: That's it. That's exactly what it is. Same, same. Yep.0:22:20.3 Mischa Z: Yeah. And I think as far as mantra is concerned, again, along the lines of like Google that, right? Like Google a mantra, or Google a prayer, or Google a...0:22:32.4 Brahman Kyrie: That's it.0:22:32.4 Mischa Z: Self-affirming...0:22:33.4 Brahman Kyrie: Belief.0:22:36.4 Mischa Z: Belief... I love it. And then you were saying obviously the she... You're referencing the little Brahman Kyrie, or the little Brahman Kyrie in there. And for me, it'd be the little Mischa, or the him, right?0:22:48.2 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, yeah.0:22:49.0 Mischa Z: It's a him.0:22:49.9 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:22:50.3 Mischa Z: Yeah. I love that.0:22:51.3 Brahman Kyrie: 'Cause all we really want is to... We have those inner child needs. So we have this need for security, we have this need for love, this need for approval, this need for acceptance, this need for attention, this need for hope, and this need for rest. So we have those needs. And when... Say, if we have a big catastrophe in our life, and some of those needs are really threatened, we need to be able to give that to ourselves... So all of the approval and the acceptance and all that. I need to be able to give that to myself, and then I need to find safe, dependable adults... So it's people that I... That are part of my crew that I feel safe with that I can share that stuff with. So that's really important as well.0:23:39.4 Mischa Z: I love it. Okay, and you were gonna... So we had to plug in immediately to a spiritual community, do a little footwork... Find something, get some mantra... Get that mantra tool that... And I would even say if I heard from you, it's like turn it over to something versus like, "Hey, you've got me, you're holding me, I'm safe." What have you.0:24:03.9 Brahman Kyrie: Yep.0:24:05.5 Mischa Z: Okay, cool. And then next, what are next steps? What do we... And I think you were gonna say something, if you were a client of mine and then I cut you off and I didn't...0:24:13.5 Brahman Kyrie: No... I'd for sure I would always... I always, always, always recommend the inner child stuff, like really connecting with the little boy or little girl within. That's definitely a tool that I use daily. I use that daily. We're emotional beings, we're never gonna not have emotions. We're always gonna feel. And particularly to be honest, as we're on the path... If we're on a spiritual path and we're becoming more energized and we are having more energy coming to our being, we're gonna need to parent that little girl or little boy more as we go.0:24:48.7 Brahman Kyrie: It's not that all of a sudden we're gonna be so spiritual that we're gonna not feel anything. That's just not... You go, "I wish it could be like that, then it wouldn't be so tricky." But it's never gonna be that. We're always gonna feel. And so we have to develop that relationship with our emotional nature, with our little girl, or little boy, our feeling, our inner child. And then it's like parenting that little child on the run. So when you're in traffic or whatever, someone's cut you off or... It's like immediately, if you... Before going into that rage or whatever, it's like, "It's okay, little one. It's okay. It doesn't even matter. It's totally fine. Who cares?" You know?0:25:28.5 Mischa Z: Yeah.0:25:28.6 Brahman Kyrie: Just that. So it's constant parenting of that emotional self. So parenting the inner child, the mantra for sure, and the... It can be any mantra because it's all... They're all sacred sounds. And so their energy is always gonna help attune your energy to something more high vibrational.0:25:46.9 Mischa Z: Okay.0:25:47.3 Brahman Kyrie: So anything like that is good. You could just sit there... And the beautiful thing about the mantra is that you don't need anything... It's great if you have a mala, but you don't need a mala, you can count on your knuckles. You can...0:26:00.5 Mischa Z: Yeah.0:26:00.7 Brahman Kyrie: You know... Or you can just sit there and just keep chanting Om, if you want, you know.0:26:05.6 Mischa Z: Om... Yeah.0:26:06.8 Brahman Kyrie: So that's cool.0:26:07.6 Mischa Z: Yeah... Love it.0:26:09.5 Brahman Kyrie: Definitely surrender. Always about the surrender. And I would also suggest that they do guided meditation. So find a really good guided meditation, and particularly a meditation that works with your energy field. So I've got a couple of really good ones that I always use myself and that I recommend for other people as well. There are some that are mine, but also some that are like... Shakti Durga has a great arch-angelic one that is just brilliant. And you can use it when you first start on the spiritual path, you could use it when you're 50 years down the track, it's still gonna have a really great effect on your energy body.0:26:51.1 Mischa Z: Yes, thank you for reminding me that. 'Cause I used many of those that you're talking... That you provided to me. And I believe we are going to... On the bonus area, we're gonna make some of your meditations available... Correct?0:27:06.2 Brahman Kyrie: Yes, yeah. We are.0:27:06.5 Mischa Z: I love that. Some of your guided meditations. Tell me surrender. So, I think surrender is a great strategy. So tell me a tactic to surrender... So it's like... It's easy to say, "Oh, just surrender." But then it's like, "Well, what does that mean?"0:27:22.3 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:27:23.1 Mischa Z: How?0:27:23.8 Brahman Kyrie: How? So if I am in mental obsession, or if I am... If I have this great idea... It could be a really, really good thing that I'm sort of attached to. But if I'm in that attached place, I know that the attachment makes it not a good thing, even if it's a really...0:27:43.9 Mischa Z: Yeah.0:27:44.1 Brahman Kyrie: You know what I mean? So even if it's like, "Oh... " Like, I was once attached to getting a spiritual temple, and that... Because of that attachment, it blinded me to a lot of things that were right in front of me that I didn't see. And so even if it's a really good thing that we're trying to manifest, or that we're trying to create in our life, if we have attachment to it, the attachment makes it not that great. And so we can still have that preference.0:28:07.5 Brahman Kyrie: And so what I do, is I'll sit at my altar, or I'll sit in a sacred place, whether it's out in the garden or whatever. And I'll just literally say to the divine or whatever... To God, or Amma, or whoever. I give you this, please take this from me. I give you this, please take this and lead me to who you'd have me be. What do you want me to do? Where do you want me to be? I do all that stuff, but then I also... If I've said that prayer, and I've said it a few times during the day, I still take action, that supports maybe getting that thing that I'm thinking about. I still take the action, but I always make sure that I've prayed first, so it kind of cleans up the energy, before I do it.0:28:51.3 Mischa Z: I love that.0:28:51.9 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:28:52.1 Mischa Z: I love that. I love that. Yeah. Fantastic. Good. Cool. What else? What else?0:29:00.0 Brahman Kyrie: What else? Let me think. What else? What else? What else is there?0:29:08.7 Mischa Z: Well, I... Oh yeah, go ahead.0:29:10.8 Brahman Kyrie: No you go ahead.0:29:10.9 Mischa Z: And I think... I think you could tell me because you're... I think for everybody watching and listening, when we get in that state, it's like I don't need the full transformation... Just get me pointed in the right direction... And I just need 1% movement, so that it's like, "Oh yeah. Okay. There's hope," right?0:29:37.8 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah. And... I love that. And it's like... I shared this the other week, I can't remember who I got it from. I got it from someone. It was like, to get from this side of the country to the other side of the country, it doesn't need to be light the whole way, you just need to be in a car with headlights that illuminate a few meters in front of your car... In the darkness. And it's exactly what you're saying. Is like, I don't need to see the whole picture. I don't need to know who's gonna be there, what it's gonna feel like, am I gonna be happy. I don't need to know all that stuff. I just need to see a little bit in front of where I'm going, and then when I pray and get my energy aligned, with the divine, through mantra, or surrender, or whatever... Inner child work... Then I'm more open to just taking that next right action, instead of having to know the whole thing. It's like, I don't need to know the whole thing, I just need the next bit.0:30:28.7 Mischa Z: Yeah. It's beautiful. Thank you for this.0:30:32.7 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah.0:30:32.7 Mischa Z: So, if I... And we'll just take one more angle at it. So I roll in... Say the me rolls in like I did six years ago, and I'm like, "I'm... Brahman Kyrie, I'm all in." Like get me pointed in the right direction. You're gonna say, "Okay, great, tap into some spiritual... Into the... To a spiritual community." Let's assume it's yours. And then you're gonna sit down with them and you're gonna say, "Okay, here's a... Do A, B, C, D."0:31:00.5 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah... If you walked in, I would say, "Okay, let's get you connected with some other people walking the same path as you." So you understand that you're not alone, 'cause we're not alone. So I'll get you connected with a community. And then, another thing that I would also get you to do, because it seems so counter-intuitive, and such a foreign thing. But really, when we're having those big catastrophes in our life, where it feels like our whole life is changing, or crumbling before us... What we could do, which is gonna help us tremendously, is acts of service. Is actually, acts of service, that help us to... If I was gonna speak in spiritual terms, when we're having those big catastrophes and pain and whatever, we're clearing something as well, we're clearing some karma, we're clearing some pain, we're clearing... We're opening up into new parts of who we are, while the old parts are maybe dying, which feels really awful because it's change and no one likes change.0:32:08.4 Brahman Kyrie: But it's also a really good thing. And what helps us to get our minds off of all that stuff is just being of service. So I would for sure support them to start being of service either in this community or go and sign up and do something in someone else's community. Whatever it is, is like while you're going through this rapid change and transformation... 'Cause that's what it is... Particularly if we're on the path and that's happening, it's like it's transformation, even though our head goes, "Oh my God, I'm dying." It's actually transformation. And so until the mind catches up, it's like go and be of service, hook into a spiritual community.0:32:54.3 Brahman Kyrie: I would probably do some energy work with them, where we use mantra and the inner child. Because when... The thing about those big catastrophes is it opens us up to be able to clear things that we've held on to our whole lives that maybe have been shoved down for a really long time. So when those really big moments happen and it feels like there's a big cracking of the egg moment like we're cracking open, we're actually more capable of and open to healing that pain.0:33:24.5 Mischa Z: Yeah.0:33:25.1 Brahman Kyrie: I would work with them clearing that pain for sure.0:33:28.5 Mischa Z: I love it. And then... And just to touch on act of service real quick... That could be go feed the homeless. It could be go feed... I'm just thinking of things that I know that I have friends... Have done. They go volunteer and feed animals or horses, carrots or whatever. I mean there's...0:33:47.1 Brahman Kyrie: That's it. That's it.0:33:48.5 Mischa Z: The litany of what you can do, right?0:33:49.5 Brahman Kyrie: Go to prison, go plant a community garden to feed the homeless. Go and give clothes to the women's shelters, go and... All of those things... Even go to a temple and see if you can help with the flowers. Or go to a school and read to the children, or... All that stuff is like... While we've got all that stuff that's coming up, we have to give the mind something else to focus on, otherwise...0:34:17.7 Brahman Kyrie: There was a little story that I told the other day that I'd read from Amma. And you know this because you've bathed Vaishnavi... So you know the beautiful big elephant that we bathed in India. So Amma says that, when Vaishnavi has got a sugarcane in her mouth... Like, good luck trying to get her to drop it. And... Because she's not gonna drop it unless you give her something sweeter than the sugarcane and then she'll drop it. And so the mind is like that... It's like it's gonna keep spinning that story of trauma and pain and doom... Impending doom, until you give it something else to hold on to and focus on, then it will drop that other thing. And before you know it, it's like you've climbed out of that hole and life isn't doomsday anymore.0:35:04.4 Mischa Z: I love it, that's beautiful. Thank you. It's so good. It's so poignant. I've experienced it myself. I've seen you experience it. And it's such a great reminder 'cause it's very easy to get stuck in the me, me, me loop where it's like, "Okay, start doing that again, act of service." And even looking for an act of service can start to free the mind.0:35:25.6 Brahman Kyrie: It will definitely, absolutely.0:35:27.6 Mischa Z: And then quick, so someone says, "I liked what you said you gave... " You literally gave an example of how to soothe the inner child. So maybe someone who's like, "Alright, I'm willing to dabble with this inner child stuff, but I don't know if I wanna get a session yet." But...0:35:45.8 Brahman Kyrie: Sure. Sure.0:35:48.1 Mischa Z: You... Maybe another trick, if you were to be like... If I was like "Hey, Brahman Kyrie. Man, my inner child... What can I do quick?" [laughter]0:35:58.4 Brahman Kyrie: I'll tell a funny story, actually. It's an old story, but it's funny. Because we've all got the inner child, it doesn't matter how spiritual we think we are... So many years ago, I was running a meditation in Australia actually, and there was one student of mine who every Wednesday night after the meditation, he'd come back to my house and we'd get pizza and we'd work on the business side of my life... And my inner child loved it. I just loved it. I loved getting the pizza, I loved doing the work on the business, and he was really helpful. And this one Wednesday night, I finished the meditation, I was packing up the altar. And he approached me after meditation and he goes, "Brahman Kyrie I'm really sorry, but I can't come back to your place tonight. I'm taking her home."0:36:50.0 Brahman Kyrie: And showed me this girl... And immediately I was like, the jealousy and possessiveness... It was like rah... I was so annoyed. But I was like, "Oh my God, inner child, inner child." And so in that moment, I very quickly just said to that energy, that was like volcanic, that was jealousy, possessiveness whatever. I said to her, "It's okay, little one, you don't own him. I'll eat pizza with you tonight, and we'll catch up with him next week."0:37:19.2 Brahman Kyrie: And then immediately the energy started to dissipate. It's like I expanded through the emotion and was able to calm the emotion. And if I hadn't have done that, what would have come... 'Cause I ended up saying, "Of course, yeah, no worries. It's totally fine." But if I hadn't have done that, probably what would have come out of my mouth was, "Don't worry about it, see ya... Catch you later.”[laughter]0:37:42.8 Brahman Kyrie: And so we don't wanna do that, but that's the little girl. It's like a little kid wants her pizza, wants her friend, wants her... So just those... Whenever I'm emotionally disturbed, it's my little girl. And it's like a little kid, it's literally like... And you wouldn't... If there was a little kid feeling jealous or angry or screaming, you wouldn't berate the kid and criticize the kid. You'd say, "It's okay, no worries. It's gonna be alright." And we're gonna do this instead... A little detour. We're gonna do this. And so literally that stuff works with our emotions, it literally does. And what I have found is that it actually transmits the energy that was the jealousy and the rage and the possessiveness into a whole new energy, and then it's okay.0:38:32.5 Brahman Kyrie: And so the hand on the heart is a really beautiful physical way that the body and the being, the little self with a small 's', the little kid, feels the love. And you're just, "It's okay, little one. I got you. Don't worry about what they're doing. And it doesn't matter what's happening around us, I'm not leaving you." And that constant affirmation of they're not abandoned... 'Cause I think sometimes when we've been abandoned as kids, we adopt that program, and we do it to ourself a lot. And then they just need to know... We need to repair that relationship. And they need to know that we're not leaving them. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.0:39:11.0 Mischa Z: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. I love that advice.0:39:14.5 Brahman Kyrie: Sure.0:39:14.5 Mischa Z: Yeah that's good. I think that's a good place to end this section. So if this interview for everybody watching with Brahman Kyrie, aka Brahman Kyrie, has been fantastic. And you want to get even more from Brahman Kyrie, upgrade to the all-access pass for that bonus interview. Which is gonna be awesome 'cause I know you have so many good tales to tell. Any final thoughts to share, that we did not get a chance to cover?0:39:47.4 Brahman Kyrie: I just think that we should always try to remember how precious we are, and how precious each one of us is. I think that really is something that... It's always good to remember that, I think, about ourselves and about each other.0:40:02.8 Mischa Z: Yeah, thank you for that.0:40:04.4 Brahman Kyrie: Yep. Yep.0:40:05.1 Mischa Z: I love that. Very good, and everybody can find you at thebrahmanproject.com, that's www.the... B-R-A-H-M-A-N project.com. Her Satsang's live... Tell them where they can literally jump in.0:40:30.3 Brahman Kyrie: Yeah, so you can join Satsang live through Facebook on Brahman Kyrie Shanti. Either my public figure page or my personal page. You can actually attend the Satsangs live if you're a local at EVE Encinitas, which is 575 South Coast Highway, the 101 in Encinitas. And that's 8:30 to 10:30 every Sunday morning. The prison, if you wanna look on the prison website, it's freedomontheinside.org. If people wanna check out there, because that's another place that you can be of service if you want.0:41:02.7 Mischa Z: Love it, freedomontheinside.org. Alright, fantastic. Everybody remember, click the button on this page to get unlimited access to all of these interviews in the all-access pass. Brahman Kyrie, thank you so much. Yes.0:41:20.2 Brahman Kyrie: Lots of love, Mischa. You're amazing.0:41:22.7 Mischa Z: Thank you. You too. Thank you.[music]
每天早晨8:30 讓我們一起解讀財經時事 參加財經皓角會員 : https://yutinghao.finance 主持人：游庭皓（經濟日報專欄作家、小一輩財經人話翻譯機） 音頻收聽請在Podcast或Soundcloud搜尋『游庭皓的財經皓角』 Telegram: https://t.me/yu_finance 我的粉絲專頁:https://reurl.cc/n563rd 網站參加會員手冊 https://ssur.cc/S8Uqpr 歡迎來信給小編幫您處理 jackieyutw@gmail.com 『ETF × 總經，提高全球投資勝率！』 其實，看懂全球總經脈動， ETF 就是最好的跨區域、跨產業的商品選擇。今年，財經Ｍ平方把投資最重要的一哩路補足-- ETF 專區上線了！但這還不夠，這次我們全新推出 ETF 課程，讓你從景氣循環挑選 ETF，提高投資勝率！ ▮ 本次課程內容：2 堂課 10 個單元
Chips In A Bowl Announcement! Christina P. is recording her Netflix special in NYC Jan. 22! Use code JEANS to get tickets before they're gone! 1/22 @ 7pm: https://www.ticketmaster.com/event/00005B56D2077537 1/22 @ 10pm: https://www.ticketmaster.com/event/00005B56D2087539 SPONSORS: - Go to https://ShipStation.com, click on the microphone at the top, and enter in YMH, to get a 60-day free trial, just in time for the holidays! - Go to https://saatva.com/theshit for $200 off your order - Get 25% off, up to $10 value, and zero delivery fees on your first order of $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter code YMH. - Go to https://brooklinen.com and use promo code house to get $20 off, with a minimum purchase of $100 - Go to https://WHOOP.com and use code “MOM” at checkout to save yourself 15% off today. - Get 20% off and free shipping by going to https://manscaped.com/MOM. - Download the DraftKings app NOW and use promo code MOM to get a FREE shot at MILLIONS in total prizes with your first deposit! Use your one glove to pull those jeans all the way over your head! This week on your Mom's House Podcast with Christina P. and #GloveComic Tom Segura, we test Christina's fear of vomit a bit more, which leads to her retaliating with one of her instant-classic TikToks! This then leads to a VERY heated debate how this cool guy is making some certain sounds. We get a wild update on Studio G's comment section, the "Don't Call Me Daddy" guy apparently doesn't like other things, and we dive into Burnt Crystal's puzzling deep love for himself! We find one of Tom's doppelgangers talking about Aegosexuality, a lady in a dope M&M jacket calling out a dude on the street, and over inclusiveness on playgrounds. Also, Tom is learning that he's actually starting to like Las Vegas! Maybe the key is to not be there for 6 nights in a row? We watch footage Ryan Sickler almost ruin a VERY nice racing car! And of course, we review all your club banger remixes of Cutter The Killer Clown's vocal track! We then wrap up with a batch of Christina's Toks that are definitely more uplifting than last week's batch!
Deputy Chief Steve Prziborowski joins us this week to talk about promotional exams and initial hiring exams. A regular speaker at FDIC, where Justin sees him often, Chief P (because typing that name over and over again is going to put me in therapy...sorry Chief) is available to speak directly to your group about the upcoming promotional exam. We cover some of the most common mistakes and urban legends of promotional exams as well as some of the things folks do well. It can be intimidating to walk into a room with so much gold but Chief P can give you the upper hand to be confident in your preparation. This week we discuss: Tips for preparing for the oral interview Discussion of Chief P's YouTube series on his 101 Tips Common misconceptions about the folks sitting across the table How an M&M tie may not be the best attire for the interview
Today's interview is on emotional awareness at work. Do you identify with and accept the entire range of emotions that you experience? Do you feel that you can bring your whole self to work because it is an environment that supports and honors all emotions, or do you feel that you have to hide your emotions? I'm privileged to be joined by Karla McLaren, an award winning author, social science researcher, and pioneering educator whose empathic approach to emotions revalues, even the most negative emotions and opens startling new pathways into self awareness, effective communication and healthy empathy. In this podcast, we will explore different ways to name our emotions with the vocabulary of an embodied experience so that we can grow our self awareness, develop greater self regulation, navigate triggers with skill and have more relationship mastery. We also discuss how to design for empathy and emotional intelligence at work with different questions, strategies and tips. Together Karla and I speak to the powerful practice of developing social contracts that empower trust, psychological safety so that people can really speak the truth even if it destabilizes processes or structures that frankly, should just be let go. There's so much good stuff in this interview. Thank you for joining us! SHINE Links: Meditation Exercises Leading from Wholeness Executive Coaching Leading from Wholeness Learning and Development Resources Shine: Ignite Your Inner Game to Lead Consciously at Work and in the World by Carley Hauck Contact Carley Hauck Book Carley for speaking Sign up for the Podcast! Carley on LinkedIn Karla McLaren Resources mentioned in this episode: Emotional Vocabulary List Empathy Quiz The Imperfect Shownotes Carley Hauck 0:01 Hi, thank you for joining the SHINE podcast. I'm your host Carley Hauck. This podcast is the beginning of season five. And it is all about the intersection of three things: conscious, inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices. If you are just joining the SHINE podcast, please go to your favorite podcast application and hit the subscribe button so you don't miss any fantastic episodes. I would also love to encourage you to write a positive review. If you enjoy this podcast or any of the other SHINE podcasts, it helps so much and spreads the light and brings wonderful people to this community. Today's interview is on emotional awareness at work. And I have the privilege to have this incredible conversation with a mentor and a teacher that has been in my life for over 10 years, Karla McLaren. And before I go into a little bit about Karla, I wanted to introduce the interview. And in this podcast today, we are going to be talking about different ways to name our emotions with vocabulary with embodied experience so that we can grow our self awareness, develop greater self regulation, navigate triggers with skill and have more relationship mastery. We're also going to talk about how do we design for empathy and emotional intelligence at work with different questions and strategies and tips will also speak to powerful practice of developing social contracts that empower trust, psychological safety so that people can really speak the truth even if it destabilizes processes or structures that frankly, should just be let go. There's so much good stuff in this interview. Karla McLaren is an award winning author, social science researcher, and pioneering educator whose empathic approach to emotions revalues, even the most negative emotions and open startling new pathways into self awareness, effective communication and healthy empathy. She is the author of four books, and I believe a workbook and I'm not going to read all of the books aloud but you can definitely go to her website and check them all out. She is an amazing resource that I'm so excited to introduce you to. The Art of Empathy, A Complete Guide to Life's Most Essential Skill that came out in 2013, The Language of Emotions: What Your Feelings Are Trying to Tell You came out in 2010. That was my first introduction to Karla and her latest book, The Power of Emotions at Work: Accessing the Vital Intelligence in Your Workplace. Karla has also developed the groundbreaking six essential aspects of empathy model that highlights all the processes in healthy empathy, and makes them easily understandable, accessible and attainable. Karla is so wonderful to have you on the SHINE podcast, I discovered your work and the book the language of emotions. About 10-12 years ago, I was attending these community Enneagram panels in Marin County. And I was often one of the youngest people in the room. And in those days, I tend to be attracted to wisdom. And so I've always found myself among elders. And someone talked about this book. And I think it had only come out maybe a year or two before and I knew that I was a very emotional being and didn't quite know how to navigate those emotions and didn't really have language for it. So I went and got your book. And it had a huge positive impact on me. Because I started to really turn towards my emotions, really notice what was happening in my physical body and began to ask myself questions and my emotions questions. And it really enabled me to develop better boundaries, to understand my own empathy skills and emotional sensitivities. And that has really evolved in my work and in my personal life. And I bring a lot of that exploration into my own book, Shine. And that is a big part of chapter two of my book, which is the inner game of emotional intelligence. And so your new book, The Power of Emotions at Work, has come out a couple months ago, and we have the same publisher, Sounds True. And you have I believe, published four books with Sounds True. And I listened to your recent interview with Tammy Simon, the founder of Sounds True on your new book, on the popular podcast Insights From the Edge where Tammy is typically interviewing Sounds True authors and their new books. And I loved this interview of yours. And I was so excited to support you in this next book, and to have you on the podcast. So thank you, for your deep contribution, your genius really around the realms of emotion and empathy, for shining your light in the way that you are. I am grateful and delighted to have you here. Karla McLaren 6:30 Thank you. Thanks. Carley Hauck 6:33 So this podcast is on the intersection of three things: conscious, inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices. And so one of the questions that I love asking my guests is What does conscious inclusive leadership mean to you? Karla McLaren 6:51 In my own work as a leader, for me, it is make maintaining an emotionally well regulated social structure around me because as leaders find out, leadership will challenge every part of you, every terrible way that your family taught you how to do emotions, every ridiculous idea you have about your own success, every every piece of you, that is not right on track, leadership will kick you right in that thing. If you do not have an emotionally well regulated social structure around you, then it is very easy to become kind of a rigid and concrete excuse for all of your personal failures. And if you have an emotionally well regulated social structure, then there is going to be the room for you to say, oh my gosh, I suck. I suck so hard right now. So let me dial this back and figure out what I'm doing. And I apologize and Lord, that was bad. Right? To for me, leadership means leading with people, never never been over people. So I'm very, very anti capitalist, very anti hierarchy. Because both of those things tend to treat people as things and as puzzle pieces or as tools, rather than as living breathing souls. So for me, there is no, you know, work life schism. My work is my life, and my life is my work. And so I don't want to be in any situation where there is a danger of me becoming less of a whole being and more of a leader. And I'm going to put finger quotes around leader. Carley Hauck 8:52 Wonderful, thank you. Well, I loved some of the things that you said, you know, leading with not leaving over and what you were talking about is bringing, bringing your whole self you know, to your life and there's no compartmentalizing that at work, or in your regular life. And I also feel very aligned with that, and, and we can't, you know, not bring our whole selves with us, it comes up no matter what. And so, thank you for that. One of the perspectives that I really loved when I was listening to the interview that you did with Tammy on the Insights From the Edge podcast, where she's, you know, promoting her new authors and books or old authors, and in this case, not that you're old, but you've you've had a couple books with Sounds True. A lot with them. Yeah. You, you. I just felt like that interview was so fiery and you went into places that I feel most people don't have the courage to speak to and so because I know but you're comfortable on the deep waters, I thought I might just go there, are you with that? Karla McLaren 10:05 Let's do it. Carley Hauck 10:06 Okay! So you shared in that interview that you've been thinking a lot about the so-called negative emotions and positive emotions. And you've shared that the so-called negative emotions are typically dismissed or we push them away, because they shake up the status quo. And the so called positive emotions go along, and then you went into the deep waters a bit and said, and a capitalist, sexist, racist, ableist, transphobic, homophobic world, these negative emotions would stand up and say, this is some shit, and we need to change it. And we need to change it every day. It's not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. And when I heard you say that, Karla, I got goosebumps. And I was just so standing up in my seat saying hallelujah! Yeah, 100%. So I'm gonna let you take it from there. Karla McLaren 11:10 There's so many, there's so many avenues to go down. But I think one of the most important ways to begin to access your emotions in a functional way, is to understand that there is no such thing as a negative emotion. And there is no such thing as a positive emotion. Because if you believe that, you're going to avoid the so-called negative ones, and you're going to overuse and even abuse the so-called positive ones. In the workplace. This is really important, because almost every workplace book that talks about, you know, how to work with emotions in the workplace, is basically how do we make everybody feel happy, happy, happy, happy. And happiness is being used as a kind of a drug. And, oh, I'm remembering what book was it? What book was it Brave New World, Soma, there's a drug called Soma that makes everybody happy. And it's a way for a pretty evil cabal to take over because everyone is asleep in their happiness, right? So they can't feel their anger, which would tell them that their boundaries have been crossed, they can't feel their fear, which is their instincts and intuition. You can't feel their jealousy, which tells them about love and loyalty, they can't feel their envy, and on and on and on. If people want us just to feel the happiness emotions, I have now realized that we are looking at social control. And so now I've like, okay, social control is definitely occurring here. Now, what is the purpose of this social control? Right? So it means that I pretty much can't go anywhere, with any. Like, Carly, you can't come to this party, this party is about happiness. Carley Hauck 13:00 Right? Well, and, and what's been so interesting, in my own experience, being someone that feels deeply and always has there been times in my life, when I definitely suppress that and push that away, because, for example, my mother and father expressed so much emotion in our house, that there really wasn't room for me or my sister to express ours. And so I would just kind of put it to the side or hide it. And then eventually, I couldn't do that anymore when I became a teenager, and my hormones really, you know, kicked in, and I felt my rage, and I felt my sadness and, and I expressed it, but I've noticed in my own life, that if people don't feel comfortable, and we'll, we'll go here in this conversation, really turning towards all their emotions, all of them, you know, not compartmentalizing them into negative or positive that it's very challenging for them to be with the emotions of others, and maybe some of the more we call them, or label them as society does more difficult emotions. What do you think about that? Karla McLaren 14:15 Yes, I agree. And also because empathy is first and foremost, an emotional skill, if people don't develop a full range of emotional skills and awareness, then their empathy will always be sort of a half assed empathy, if that. There are three positive emotions. There are 14 so-called negative ones. So you end up working with about 17.6% of emotions and if you remember being graded in school, 50% is an F. So if we believe in positive and negative emotions, for getting an F, in emotions and an empathy. Carley Hauck 15:00 Can you share what those three positive ones are for the audience? Karla McLaren 15:05 The poor, beleaguered, abused so-called positive emotions, are happiness, which looks to the future and tells you when something is fun or hopeful. The second is contentment, which is an emotion that turns toward you, when you've done something that meets with your own approval, and joy, which is an emotion that opens you up and sort of drops your boundaries, and helps you kind of, I guess, upload an experience of bliss. And there's a lot of danger in joy, but people don't really talk about it. They think joy is the only emotion to feel. And so these three emotions are very specific jobs, they come up for very specific reasons. And they should never be trapped or laid over the top of other emotions, but they almost always are in our, in our positive and negative emotion culture. Carley Hauck 16:10 And it was so interesting to watch, you know, last year with the murders of George Floyd and so many other black and brown brothers and sisters of ours, and the uprising of rage that came through and the protests. And again, I was in celebration of that, because I feel like if we were more in touch with our rage, our grief, or fear, we would be making the changes to the structures and systems that are causing hurt and harm in our workplaces, in our worlds. Karla McLaren 16:50 Yeah, and notice the backlash that happened against those expressions of honest emotion, honest and necessary emotion. Right? It was sort of, you know, you shouldn't be so angry, you shouldn't be full of rage, you should, you know, wait until the system changes. Like that's not how systems change. Carley Hauck 17:16 Your very suffering then causes the systems to break or be hospiced. Well, and before the call in the recording started, you and I were talking about climate change, because you were saying, I'm grateful that there's rain today, and that we don't have a big fire. And I lived in Northern California for a very long time, too. And, you know, I feel like that's the next wave that's coming of people really understanding the gravity of our survival. And, and what the science is clearly saying, and we don't have a leader in the office anymore, who's denying this science. And there is some action and there is some change in structure. But I don't think that most people have really felt the grief and the rage and the fear around this. I know I have. I know I'm still feeling it. I know, there's layers of it. But I'm hopeful and inspired that the more we can turn towards those feelings, we will create the systems and changes to support this hot future that we are inheriting and that we have caused. What are your thoughts on that? Karla McLaren 18:40 I don't know. I don't know. I'm in a pretty philosophical place about the human race right now. The last four years made me go hmm, is this a species that deserves to survive? It's a question I've had for quite a while. I'm not exactly a misanthrope. But I'm just feeling that without access to our emotional functioning, we are sort of like toddlers with a handgun, in many cases, in terms of our capacity to understand and respond to the troubles that we cause. Carley Hauck 19:25 Thank you. Yeah. Well, one of the things I'm gonna move it a little bit. I could totally stay in this part of our conversation for a while, but I want to bring it into how we can encourage and inspire folks to access more of their emotions and their emotional intelligence and empathy at work. And I've been conducting trainings and bringing, you know, skills for empathy and emotional intelligence into all the work that I've been doing in the workplace for the last decade, and when I ask folks, What emotions do you not show at work and why? Most often I hear that they're grouped around what's acceptable for our gender norms, and what's not acceptable. And so for example, men, historically and our culture, and in many world cultures do not feel permission to feel fear, or, or sadness, they're, they're being, you know, labeled more as the weaker emotions, the more feminine emotions. And for, for women, it's anger. And we can see that when we push those emotions away, that that erupts into other actions. And so I believe that the Me Too movement, the huge domestic violence against women, against non binary folks, against other minorities from them, is coming, because they, they've had to suppress those parts of them. And it's coming out in actions, and women are hiding anger, and it's turning more into sadness. And that's because they don't want the backlash of being coined, a witch or a bitch or aggressive, and I feel curious, what do you hear about what emotions people hide? And why? And also open to any perspective, or, you know, via those gender measures? Karla McLaren 21:43 Yeah, the gender emotions are really interesting, because they cause so much trouble between the genders. And of course, I think agender people, they are not outside of this binary, that they are not outside of this binary, if they want to present as one gender or the other or neither. They are still sort of, sort of, well, I don't want to say trapped. But, but, you know, there's ways that by forbidding men to feel sadness and grief and forbidding them to show fear, we turn them into sort of, we turn them into rigid bodies, and by refusing to let women show or feel anger, we turn them into unnaturally softened bodies. So with men, we have unnaturally rigid bodies, and when we have unnaturally softened ones, and when these two bodies come together, there is usually conflict, because the unnaturally softened, one might look at the rigidity and say, you know, that is the wrong way to be, that is the wrong way, you can't be that way and then you know, the opposite would happen. So I think this, this gendering of emotion is one of the things that helps the the gender divide, maintain itself, so strongly so if a woman or you know, a female presenting person learns how to work with anger, she or they are, are, they are breaking their breaking through the violence of gender. And if a male presenting person learns to work with sadness, and fear and grief, then they're also in their own body, challenging the gender binary and the gender violence that occurs. And I think this is, you know, that's something you can do, you cannot fix, you know, however many centuries of, of the gender binary and the violence that goes with it, but you can fix it in your own emotional life. And in so doing free yourself and free anybody who is around you, right? It can free the people around you by going into the shadow of what, you know, a person with your gender expression is supposed to feel or not feel. And I like that because that's where my freedom is. You can tell me anything about emotions about what I'm not supposed to be doing. And on the outside, I can go Sure, sure, I wouldn't do that emotion on the inside I have all freedom in the world. Right? I feel what I feel regardless of what other people want me to feel. Carley Hauck 24:42 Thank you for that, in in the research that I was doing with my book, I really felt that a large role of consciousness inclusive leadership was enrolling men men identifying to be allies, to women to to marginalized communities to people of color, and I had lots and lots of conversations with men, and was really able to hear how hard it is to be a man at times in our culture. And you know, what they've been reinforced and the end the man box, so to speak, of what is acceptable to be a man and what is not. And it was really beautiful to hear their vulnerability and their fear and their sadness. And I am a really big proponent of people in general, again, just embracing all parts of themselves expressing and I, I feel hopeful, the transformation that's happening, and especially that's happening in the workplace, there are a lot more programs being developed and initiated for male allyship, Intel has a very large program, and I've developed a closer relationship with one of the champions and ambassadors of that program. Intel has 100,000 team members, you know, it's massive. So I, I share this because I feel inspired at the microcosm of change that can happen in the workplace that can then transcend into our greater world. Going into some of the wisdom that you have really developed and understood around emotions, could you share what the deeper wisdom behind rage, fear and grief are and I'm, I'm honing in on those three, because I feel that in this time of the pandemic, most people that maybe never had access those probably have, and I'd love to just normalize them a bit with your support. Karla McLaren 27:00 Each of these emotions is really necessary at all times. But also in times of trouble, I would like to see these three emotions out playing in times of trouble. Rage is an intensified form of anger. And probably there's a bit of panic in it. Panic is the emotion that helps us fight, flee, freeze or flock to safety. And so when you see anger that has fight in it, there's usually panic there and panic comes forward when we are endangered. So there's danger, please panic come and help us right. So rage is anger with a kind of a panic chaser. And it comes forward when, certainly when your boundaries have been crossed. Anger is about setting boundaries and identifying what you value. And protecting and restoring what you value. The power that comes with anger is very, very misunderstood. It comes forward to help you be vulnerable. Like to be vulnerable is a very empowering thing. But people don't sort of see it that way. They see it as a weakness. So anger comes to bring you the power and the strength you need to be vulnerable. When there's rage. Often, people are raging, not just on behalf of themselves, but on behalf of systemic inequalities and injustice. So there's that need to sort of step it up a bit. It is very difficult though, when panic is there for people to be able to be vulnerable within their rage. This is kind of next level, emotional skill, to feel that intensity of emotion, and to be able to speak clearly, without doing undue harm to others. We've mostly learned to use our anger as a weapon, which is what it never should have been and never should be. There are some times when you need to weaponize yourself, you need to tear into somebody you need to fight, but not as often as we do. So I'm not I'm not throwing violence into the shadows. There are times when you need to fight. But there are more times when you need to be vulnerable. And that's what anger brings to you. So welcome anger. Let me see if I can be strong enough to be vulnerable right now. That's kind of the work without emotion. Fear is our instincts and intuition. A lot of people mistake fear with anxiety and panic. But there are three different but connected emotions. Fear is about the present moment. It's your instincts and your intuition. It's your focus and your clarity. It's your ability to key into what's going on right now and it helps you identify change and novelty. If there's any danger, then panic needs to come because that's the life saving emotion. That's panic's job. But a lot of people when they say no fear, or the only thing to fear is fear itself. There's a lot of really nasty messaging around fear. But what people are talking about is panic. And they shouldn't say that about panic either. But they do. So the work for fear is to simply become aware of it. That's what it comes to help you do. So you just become aware of the present moment check in. Is there any change? Is there any novelty? Is there anything I need to pay attention to? And that's it. That's the work of fear. If you're good with fear, if you're, if you're very fear-resourced, you will be instinctual and intuitive. And you will be aware of your surroundings. That is a sign of being good with fear. Carley Hauck 31:00 And one of the questions I often ask fear, and I encourage other people to ask, and I don't know if I was influenced by you in this questions, I'm just going to own that. But it's super helpful for me to ask what's the worst thing that could happen? Because if I look at that squarely in the face, because sometimes the worst thing does happen. But most of the time, it doesn't. If I can face that, if I can turn towards everything that arises in the worst thing that can happen, then I can move into the next step, which is inspired action, which is like, what do I have control of right now? How do I respond? Karla McLaren 31:43 That would be more of an anxiety question, because it looks to the future. That fears about the present moment, if there's anything feeling like it's coming at you, or there's any kind of dread or danger out in the future panic will be there, but anxiety will too because its job is to prepare you for the future. So that's like a really good anxiety. question is what's the worst that could happen? And then you prepare for the possible worst, right? Carley Hauck 32:14 Yeah, yeah. So then for fear, would you ask, What are you scared of right now? Karla McLaren 32:18 No, because scared implies danger. And that would be panic. So fear is you simply pay attention in the present moment, the question that I have for fears, what action should be taken? And sometimes the answer is nothing. Everything's fine. Carley Hauck 32:41 Thank you. I'd like to take a moment to give you a practice around emotional awareness. We're gonna take just a few minutes, and then we'll come back to the second part of this fantastic interview. So bring your attention inside. By closing your eyes by shifting your gaze downward. Don't do this while you're driving. And slow down. Feel your feet, your hands simply by wiggling your fingers, your toes. start to notice the rhythm of your breath as you breathe in and out. Breathing in through the belly. Noticing the rise and fall on the inhale on the exhale. Take some deep breaths, make some sounds as you breathe in. As you breathe out. Do any movement that would help you come more fully into this experience into this moment into your body. See if you can imagine that the energy from your head is starting to move down into your belly into your pelvis are moving more and more into our bodies and out of the thinking, doing and rather being aspect of ourselves. Doing a scan from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet. Simply notice where your body is feeling the most energy. is it in the head? Is it in the hands? Is it in the chest? Is it in the belly? For me there's a lot of energy in my head. Been very much in work and thinking mode today. And I've had a little bit too much caffeine to power through. That's what I'm noticing right now. What are you noticing in the body? Where is your body holding the most energy? And what does that energy? Feel like? What are the qualities? Is it restless? Is it heavy? Is it soft? Is it agitated, everything is welcome. The more that we can turn towards our bodies in our experience, our bodies can settle and have a different experience. Because all of our emotions are held in our physical body. Now notice, if there are any feelings present. It could be one of a dominant feelings. There could be many feelings. What are you noticing in this one part of the body that we're focusing on because it has more sensation, more dominance than maybe other parts of your physical body? We're just being curious what's here? For me, I noticed there's some sadness. What is present for you? And just staying with the body, staying with the feelings, not needing to create a story or change it or fix it. Just being here. And then asking this part of the body? How can I support you best right now? How can I support you best. And really listening to that wisdom. Maybe it's a kind word, an action that you can give towards yourself, maybe it's a placing of a loving touch on that part of the body. So for myself right now I'm placing my right hand on my forehead and just offering some care. Now moving into my heart and noticing that self care that self love. Seeing what would feel most comforting and supportive to you. And then bringing your awareness back to your breath back to your body. Just noticing how you feel right now. This is a very small exercise that we can do to grow our inner game of emotional intelligence. You're becoming self aware of emotions, physical sensations, you're regulating your nervous system by slowing down your heart rate, your blood pressure, your breathing. You're investigating your needs because every feeling has a need. Just imagining what it would be like if you gave yourself more time throughout the day to do this practice, how might it benefit you? So, if you're interested in growing this inner game of emotional awareness, empathy and intelligence, which I would highly recommend, it will support you to be a conscious inclusive leader at work. It will allow you to excel in your personal relationships with deeper intimacy and connection, I have a few resources to support you in this. There are 15 free meditations on my resources page of my website. The link will be in the show notes that you can listen to. similar to this meditation but tailored to different emotions and different experiences. You can also get my new book Shine: Ignite Your Inner Game to Lead Consciously at Work and in the World. It's available in hardcopy or audiobook. And I would love to speak with you on this topic or others, and see how I could develop a specific training for your organization, team or leadership. I am currently working with Capital One, which I love. And I'm doing a lot around this particular topic with their leadership team and their organization. The links for booking time with me will be in the show notes. And Karla also has many incredible resources. So back to the show. Carley Hauck 40:58 And then grief, tell me more about the wisdom of grief. Karla McLaren 41:04 Grief is a beautiful emotion that arises at a death, either of a person or an idea or relationship, the death of your previous lifestyle, the death of health, right if you move into an illness, and grief is the emotion that helps you make those profound transitions. We are a grief impaired culture here in white, Northern America, white European, Northern America, I would say that there is a good grief tradition in Judaism. And many people of color, especially African Americans, and people from Mexico have beautiful grief transitions. But for most Europeans, the grief traditions are gone. And so we don't know how to make those profound transitions. And we also confuse grief with the other members of the sadness, family sadness, and depression. So we don't kind of know grief, but our bodies do. And that's something that's always made me feel really, really happy, that even though culturally, we've been separated from the traditions of grieving, our bodies know how to grieve, they do and I give grief rituals, and people are like, I don't know what I'm doing. But as soon as we move into the ritual, they totally know what they're doing. They totally know. So bodies know grief and, and connecting with your body is one of the key ways to support your grief. And the question for grief is what must be mourned, and what must be released to completely. Carley Hauck 42:54 love that what must be mourned and what must be released completely. And there's so much to grieve, right now, in our world, there's so much to let go, and release and more. So that we can create the new build the new. So I want to move into the increased awareness of mental health, I feel like mental health was always present in the workplace. It's always been there. But it's becoming talked about more and more and more, which is fabulous, because then hopefully we can create some changes and give people the support that they need. And part of that has arisen more in the midst of the pandemic because of the social isolation, the increased complexity and challenge and, you know, layoffs mean so many things being quarantined. And it was very easy to find research on this. But I basically looked into two articles earlier today. And this was an article that was looking at the impact of COVID on suicidal ideation. And it said that COVID-19 crisis, increased suicide rates during and likely will after the pandemic. And it was something that I thought was really interesting, because I know that you have spoken about suicidal urges. And I don't think that's something that is talked about very often and the wisdom behind suicidal urges, would you be willing to speak to that? Karla McLaren 44:38 Yeah, and I was thinking in my book, I talk about the mental health effects of the workplace, and they're pretty grim. The workplace is a pretty emotionally and empathically abusive place because specifically because emotions were kicked out of the workplace at the turn of the Industrial Revolution, and you can't kick emotions out, you can only suppress them and make an emotionally unhealthy environment. And I think there was a very large research study on like 17,000 workers in the US. And the numbers that came out of it were just sort of horrifying in that eight out of 10 workers said that they were struggling at home because of the social and emotional trouble at work. So we spend most of our lives in an emotionally troubling or even abusive environment. And when the pandemic came along, and maybe people then realized, oh, their home lives aren't that healthy either. And there was all the fear that people don't know how to work with the anxiety, they don't know how to work with the sadness, grief and depression, they don't know how to work with the panic. So for a lot of people, a lot of emotions came up and it just became overwhelming. And the emotion that arises when things are, you know, when the shit has hit the fan, and everything is just not workable. The suicidal urge will arise and say, This can't go on. I call it the darkness before dawn. Because it is a time to look around yourself with you know, this very clear eyed, realistic view, to say, the difference between who I am in my heart of hearts, and what I have become in this world of expediency and meaninglessness is so extreme that it's already like a death. And the suicidal urge arises to sort of mark that moment. And the question for the suicidal urge is what behavior or situation must end now, and what can no longer be tolerated in my soul? In dynamic emotional integration, which is my work, the rule for the suicidal urge is that the human body that I'm living in is off the table. It's off the table, we can always die, but right now let's look and see what it is the suicidal urges pointing to. And as you've seen, if people don't have that framework, then they simply think that it is their body that needs to die, that they need to die. But it can be one of the most powerful moments of evolution that a person could ever experience when their own emotions say, No, this is no I refuse to live this way. Give me liberty or give me death. And you know, the way that we work with suicidal urges like take liberty death will come anyway. Like, it's like death and taxes are going to happen. So let's live this life. And you know, take the power of this emotion and let's go. Let's go kill something that needs to get killed. Like, you know, this situation or this ridiculous job or this unhappy life that I'm living in. How the hell did I get here? Carley Hauck 48:17 Or the fossil fuel industry. Karla McLaren 48:18 Yeah, let's go kill that real good. Let's blow it up. Yeah, yeah. And there really isn't any.... What I'm noticing is and I'm gonna swear but I've been having this thing in my mind a book called a form of violence that's not fucked up. Because the violence that we see over and over again is fucked up violence that is meant to hurt or kill others but we don't see that kind of sacred violence of killing that which needs to be killed and ending that which needs to be ended and being in you know, intense conflict over something and not having everybody go let's just agree to disagree. No, let's have conflict, let's go right. So it's something that is just in the back of my mind, how do we create healthy violence? Carley Hauck 49:12 I believe conflict is essential in relationship. It's just part of relationship and with healthy boundaries with self awareness, with empathy, with emotional intelligence, with care, it can be very healthy, it can bring us closer, it can create more innovation and intimacy. Karla McLaren 49:33 Yeah, yeah. But you know, you have to go through the shit, like you have to be willing to. And sometimes my husband and I are, you know, I'm like, let's do it dude, bro. Let's go, let's go outside. Let's do it. Carley Hauck 49:45 You yourself have faced suicidal ideation based on your own childhood and really being you know, with those parts of yourself and being able to really understand and navigate it from that place. Is there anything else you want to add to that? Karla McLaren 50:08 I, you know, sometimes people ask me, Well, how did you go from being a person who survived? You know, pretty extreme dissociative childhood trauma and homelessness and abuse and, you know, tremendous mental illness and poverty and all that kind of stuff. How did you get from there to here? And I was like, suicidal urge, man. That's what that's what brought me out. Because it continually was my, my North Star, it would continually tell me this is not it. This is Oh, hell, no, this is not it. This is not your life. This is not it. And I was so fortunate that I learned to listen to it, and work with it. And yeah, yeah. To say you're right. This is not it. Carley Hauck 51:08 Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, just to step in this ring with you. On Monday of this week, I had a really hard day, Karla, I was really, really hard. I cried most of the day. And I noticed in myself, that I really wanted to stop crying, like there were parts of myself that I kind of wanted to just push away, I wanted to abandon. And so I noticed for myself, when I've had suicidal ideation and urges in my life, it's because I'm, I'm abandoning parts of myself in that moment. And I'm not allowing myself to feel them. But when I can turn towards and then get to the deeper wisdom of this has to die, this has to stop, this is not working. And that's where I got to, by the end of the day, I have some bigger changes I'm going to be making very soon. So freeing, there's so much clarity and ease, and then, you know, action that I can gather around that decision and that wisdom. So anyway, just speak to listeners, that I myself have gone through that and continue to go through it. And that's been my experience of what I notice. In that. Karla McLaren 52:35 Yeah, like no, I also want to say that once you get once you befriend your emotions, and you become, you know, pals with them, and you communicate with each other, they don't have to come up in a full scale, like you don't have to go to rage. You can go to slight tiny peevishness, and you'll be like, Oh, no, you know, you could become more sensitive and empathic with your own emotions. But there is a soft, suicidal urge that I have now identified as what I call the dead flat no. Which is when someone says, Hey, Karla, can you do a whole bunch of work for me? Because I have a party later? For free? No, actually, no, I cannot do that at all. And this no is very different from the relational no of anger. Anger always has relational pieces in it, you can't be angry about something that's not important to you. So whenever there's anger, it means there's importance here, there's value here. And the no of anger would be. No, I can't do that today. But I can help you blah, blah, tomorrow, right? Or whatever if this person is worth keeping, but the person that I set up in that earlier story wasn't worth keeping. That person's like, Nope, I'm not in a relationship with you, pal. No. Carley Hauck 54:01 Okay, so I'm going to take this back into the workplace. One of the things that I have been feeling really inspired by now that we have this virtual world of work, it is worldwide. And we have an opportunity to kill the structures and systems that in the workplace that are not supporting as you share in your book, emotionally well regulated structures that actually support empathy and all emotions and us to bring our whole selves. And so when we think about designing for empathy and emotional intelligence, what do you think are some of the questions we can be asking leaders and teams? You have some really, you know, wonderful questions in your book such as, what environments do you experience as most nourishing? Emotional work? And what environments do you experience the most draining emotional work? And what are the differences between nourishing and draining environments? Those are definitely a start what? What other thoughts do you have about designing for empathy and all of our emotions to be welcomed at work? Karla McLaren 55:33 I think that I'm sort of starting from the ground up in helping everybody develop an emotional vocabularies, not only so they'll have better language with each other, but also because developing a better emotional vocabulary just all by itself gives you better emotion regulation skills. That is cool. That's a two for one. And I've got a free emotional vocabulary list on my website that we've gathered, so that people can know, you know, are they in soft anger, medium anger or intense anger? And then that can tell them? What does anger mean? And why did that emotion come up right now, another one is making sure that there is a process for mistakes and conflict, that there is that that mistakes are seen as normal and necessary ways to learn. And that, you know, it's not it's not a terror inducing thing to make a mistake in your, in your world. Because generally, people will be blamed or shunned, which will shut everybody down. Absolutely, everyone will see that happen. And it will shut down the entire community. And I think there was data saying that 85% of workers have not communicated really serious workplace issues upward because of this culture of we don't make mistakes, and we don't want anything negative to happen here. Another one is that there is an environment of trust, that it has to come from if it's a traditional kind of a hierarchy, which we would hope those go the way of the dodo. Because it's such a bad, hierarchies are so damaging to everybody from the top down. They're just awful situations, but that people must feel safe enough and supported enough to speak the truth, even if it might destabilize relationships or processes. So everybody should be able to have the red, you know, stop button that says we cannot go forward with this process, because I noticed this problem, and you see in most workplaces is if anybody had asked, at least two or three people would have been able to tell them about the problem that they found out six months later after they spent $40 million. Carley Hauck 58:04 Well, and that's the lack of psychological safety. Yeah, yeah. Right. And that's, that's been a big part of what I bring in as a foundation. Because if we don't have psychological safety, for the folks that are listening, and don't know what that actually means, it's the ability to share our feelings or needs or experiences or worldviews without the fear of reprimand, punishment, or, or judgment. And when that's not present, we actually can't feel comfortable sharing our emotions or our emotional sensitivities. Karla McLaren 58:48 Yeah. Yeah. And everybody knows that. Yeah, everybody, like they can just see someone get blamed for something. And it will just cast a pall, there will be a cold wind going through the social structure. And these things, these things have so much power. Doing doing things wrong, and making bad transitions is one of the things I see pretty much every workplace do, because transitions require emotions, sadness, grief, fear, anger, and if people don't know how to work with those emotions, their transitions are not going to be strong, they will be lumpy and cause a lot of backlash. Carley Hauck 59:29 And we're going through such a reorg in our workplace, but in our world. There are so many emotions that are coming up with all the changes in the transitions that you're sharing. And one of the things that I imagine you'll agree with, but I'm open to you disagreeing is social contracts are things that I bring in to support psychological safety, but I was really inspired in reading your book where you call it the nine aspects of emotionally well-regulated social structures and it's, it's actually social contracts that are that are similar and I'm, I actually would love to just read them if that's okay the nine because I find I think they're really helpful when we think about the designing of empathy and emotional intelligence and emotions at work. So, number one was emotions are spoken of openly and people have workable emotional vocabularies. Number two, mistakes and conflicts are addressed without avoidance, hostility or blaming. Number three, you can be honest about mistakes and conflicts without being blamed or Shun. That goes back to psychological safety. Number four, your emotions and sensitivities are noticed and respected. Wow, to live in a world where these were present and agreed upon I love it. Number five, you notice and respect the emotions and sensitivities of others. Yes. Number six, your emotional awareness skills are openly requested and respected. Number seven, you openly request and respect the emotional awareness and skills of others. Number eight, you and others feel safe enough and supported enough to speak the truth. Even if it might destabilize relationships or processes. Yes. And number nine, the social structure welcomes you, nourishes you and revitalizes you. I want that. I believe in that those are beautiful. Thank you. Karla McLaren 1:01:38 Thank you people like where does that happen? I'm like Emotional Dynamics, LLC, pal. We have so many fascinating people working here. I call us the Island of Misfit Toys. Because we have you know, we've hated work, we've hated work. And then we come here, and it's what work should have always been. Yeah. Carley Hauck 1:02:06 So just briefly, what are what are you offering through this particular you know, community of people to really structure revision? The workplace? Karla McLaren 1:02:19 What am I offering to my colleagues? Or what are we offering in the marketplace? Carley Hauck 1:02:26 What are you offering in the marketplace? Oh, support this new design of greater empathy and emotional intelligence and sensitivities at work? Karla McLaren 1:02:36 Yeah, the book. Well, the books, and we have dynamic emotional integration, we run a licensing program so that people can learn to do this work. And we also run Empathy Academy, which is a place where people can take online courses, it became very popular during the pandemic, because people are like, I'm trapped at home with my emotions, please give me a class. Yeah, and, and then we're also developing an online community where people can come and talk about emotions and develop their emotional skills and their vocabulary and have a place to laugh uproariously and and say things that are inappropriate. And I will laugh and laugh. Carley Hauck 1:03:27 Mm hmm. Wonderful. So, so needed. And so what I'd like to leave with all of these resources will be available in the show notes, folks, for those that want to learn how to take advantage of all the wisdom and these offerings that Karla has. But many of us listening know that in the midst of the pandemic, and I found this latest number that about 4 million folks have left the workplace since April 2020. And that is as a result of people seeking more meaning, purpose, better wages, flexibility, more caring teams, and leadership, and likely because they hadn't shared what they didn't enjoy or wasn't working for them. Like as, as you said earlier, Karla, most people are not sharing these complaints upward for this person. It's not safe, right? It's not safe. Exactly. So instead, they're leaving and trying to find something that's probably more humane, more caring. But if you're listening in you're a leader, or you're not a leader. I feel really curious about what would make you want to stay and what makes you want to leave? And I'd love to hear and Karla, do you have any other thoughts on that? Karla McLaren 1:04:50 It's a little bit off topic, but it sort of isn't. People talk a lot about workplace culture. And one of the experts of workplace culture, Edgar Schein, he's like the grandfather of workplace culture studies. And he says that, you know, people come in and want to change the culture, but the culture is a living, breathing thing. And any culture change should if it's done in a helpful way, take between five and 10 years, write the whole book, much people come in, like, we're gonna do culture change in six months, I'm like, No, you're not that, usually they say people don't quit their jobs, they quit their manager. But that puts a lot of pressure on managers, many of whom don't have the power, that they have a lot of responsibility, but no power, it's not a good position. And what people are really leaving is the culture. They're leaving a sick social structure. That is a lot like a sick family. And what I love about the great resignation, which is what they're calling it, as people are seeing it, and they're saying, I can choose otherwise, there's a little bit of a suicidal urge there. Right, I'm going to kill this relationship here. And I'm going to go on, and I believe in the future. You know, and maybe they'll find a slightly less sick culture in the next place, or call the Great reshuffle. I think they're interchangeable. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and to begin to understand culture, to understand the way the social structures work, and that's what you know, the power of emotions at work does is help you understand the social structure and as, as you would term it, the psychological safety. But it's not just psychological, it's sociological, that there's, you know, an interrelated human structure happening here that is functional. And in most workplaces, sadly, that is not true. That is not true. It is a dysfunctional, emotionally unsupportive culture. So it'd be wonderful to see that change. And people are saying, I'd rather have no job than this one. Carley Hauck 1:07:04 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is happening right now. Well, we are at the beginning stages of this change. And I so appreciate your wisdom, the work that you're doing, your offerings, we are in this together. And I look forward to just seeing how it all begins to evolve. And thank you again for your time today. Karla McLaren 1:07:38 Thank you. Carley Hauck 1:07:40 Wow, that was the highlight of my week. Karla, thank you so much for everything that you have learned and are sharing around these important topics with the world. We as a society and humanity need this more than ever right now. If you want to learn more about how you can access Karla's knowledge on these topics, the link for her website and her books is in the show notes. And as always, it is such a wonderful privilege to have you listening and in this community. There are lots of other fabulous podcast interviews, some definitely related to this topic that you can preview from past episodes. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please share it wildly with others. And as always, until we meet again, be the light and shine the light.
Heart Rate Variability is a measurement of the parasympathetic nervous system... Let's talk more about it!I, Dr. Ben, have been geeking out on the topic for years. It's a great biofeedback tool, a way to take a peek under the hood and see what's happening with our physiology.We talk about the what, the why, and the how.If you'd like to join these conversations live, join the Plant Based & Stress Free FB group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/alterhealthSome highlights from today's MM episode...- HRV is a measurement of the resilience of the parasympathetic nervous system in a moment- HRV is the variability between heartbeats, very different than heart rate itself- Increased HRV is "good" but consistency and context is very important- Psychological and physiologic stress reliably lower HRV- Low HRV is associated with all sorts of chronic disease, including heart disease, diabets, and cancer- Increasing HRV can be done reliably through feeling more peace- Diaphragmatic breathing, lengthening the complete exhalation is also powerful in increasing parasympathetic tone and HRVLinks to some more good stuff- Join the Plant Based &. Stress Free FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/alterhealth- Cleanse with Us during the next Alter Health Cleanse: https://www.alter.health/cleanse- Work with us in the Thrive on Plants program: https://www.alter.health/thrive-on-plants- ATTN Health Practititioners! Learn more and apply to the Plant Based Mind Body Practitioner Program: https://www.alter.health/pbmb-practitionerPeace and Love.
Joining Matt Davies Adams on this week's TFLS it's Ian Danter, Adrian Clarke, and Michelle Owen to discuss the big news from the football league. This week: MM's final curtain call at Cardiff, JJ's brilliant curtain raiser at the Addicks' helm, and FGR's and Hartlepool's wonder strikes aplenty. We also discuss the strange move by Antoni Sarcevic to move to the National League, Blackpool's top derby win, and things you can do in 40 seconds. And absolutely nothing else out of the ordinary. Nothing. RUNNING ORDER PART 1a - Hellos (01.00) PART 2a - Mick Mack's out at Cardiff (03.00) PART 2b - Birmingham 2-1 Swansea (10.00) PART 2c - Blackpool 2-0 PNE (16.00) PART 2d - Forest 0-4 Fulham (19.00) PART 2e - The Odds with Paddy Power (24.00) PART 3a - Bolton's captain jumps ship (27.30) PART 3b - Sunderland 0-1 Charlton (29.00) PART 3c - Burton 1-3 Oxford (33.00) PART 3d - The Odds with Paddy Power (37.00) PART 4a - FGR 3-1 Salford (40.00) PART 4b - Hartlepool 3-2 Harrogate (45.00) PART 4c - The Odds with Paddy Power (50.00) PART 5 - Moments of Mirth (51.00) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
If you're like me, after you finished "Squid Games," you were wondering what was worth bingeing next. Then you discovered "Midnight Mass," binged it, and now your head is swimming with all kinds of theories and questions. Last week we dropped a special episode where we discussed the first four episodes. After finishing the series, we could hardly wait to dive back into the "MM" deep end of the pool! So here it is.
In this episode, the M&M brothers talk about the coming digital revolution. What's all the excitement about with NFTs and beyond? Michael shares his excitement for becoming an early investor in tech and how he's teaching people to Trade NFTs. You can learn more at: nftsunlocked.com and if you'd like to participate, use promo code: BM2021 for $200 off *This episode is sponsored by The GAPAPS Success Blueprint - 6 Simple Steps to Lifelong Success ©2021 FINANCIALLY ALERT LLC & SUCCESS BY CHOICE INC. All Rights Reserved. The information contained in this podcast is for general education purposes only. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage derived from the information provided.
Continuing our introduction to the philosophy of Hasidism with a discussion of her directionality on the divine and human realms. Introducing Ratzu and Shuv, Dira B'tachtonim, Tzimtzum lav K'pshuto, and Ayin and Yesh. Join us: https://facebook.com/seekersofunity https://instagram.com/seekersofunity https://www.twitter.com/seekersofU https://www.seekersofunity.com Thank you to our beloved Patrons: Gerr, Effy, Noam, Ron, Shtus, Mendel, Jared, Tim, Mystic Experiment, MM, Lenny, Justin, Joshua, Jorge, Wayne, Jason, Caroline, Yaakov, Daniel, Wodenborn, Steve, Collin, Justin, Mariana, Vic, Shaw, Carlos, Nico, Isaac, Frederick, David, Ben, Rodney, Charley, Jonathan, Chelsea, Curly Joe and Adam. Join them in supporting us: patreon: https://www.patreon.com/seekers paypal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_...
本次邀請「美國金融日記」共同創辦人 Chris 上節目！ Chris 目前在美國從事財金科學研究。在到美國之前，碩士班曾在英國倫敦政經學院學財務金融跟經濟學。他主要研究領域是金融對總體經濟的影響，包括企業、房地產、就業和投資等議題。 Chris 和幾位海外的財金博士研究員一起創立「美國金融日記」，著重金融領域的科學技術應用，也有在 Hahow 好學校開設課程，希望能夠帶給大家國外第一手財金跟投資科學知識！
Please Subscribe For More Episodes! Be sure to follow me on Instagram for daily inspiration: @odaatpodcast and @arlinaallen iTunes: https://apple.co/30g6ALF Spotify: https://odaatchat.libsyn.com/spotify Stitcher: https://bit.ly/3n0taNQ YouTube Channel: https://bit.ly/2UpR5Lo Link to Judy's Book: https://amzn.to/3DTeXet Hello Loves, Thank you for downloading the podcast, my name is Arlina, and I'll be your host. In case we haven't met yet, I am a certified Recovery Coach and Hypnotist. I am obsessed with all things recovery, including neuroscience, reprogramming the subconscious mind, law of attraction, all forms of personal growth and spirituality. I have been practicing abstinence from drugs and alcohol since 4/23/94, and that just goes to show, if I can do it, you can too. Today I'm talking with Judith Grisel. She holds a PhD in Neuroscience, she's a professor at Bucknell University and author of the highly impactful book “Never Enough: the Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction” What is so interesting about her is that once she got sober, like a lot of us, she wanted to help others suffering from addiction, but she took it to a whole other level! She got her Phd in neuroscience to try to cure addiction! I'm so in awe of her. This book is full of the mechanics and mechanisms of addiction which really takes the shame out of having mental illness because it demonstrates that anyone could fall prey to addiction. I listened to the audio version of the book, which, btw, I loved because her voice is so soothing, but I also got the paperback because I wanted to really study some of the concepts she goes into. Plus there's a few pictures in it so there's that. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did! With that, please enjoy this episode with Judy. Transcript: Arlina Allen 0:08 Let's see. Judy, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm really happy to be here. Arlina is it okay to call you, Judy? Oh, yes. Dr. Chris. No, please. Thank you. Well, listen, I am so excited to talk to you. I have your book. I posted on social media, I was like, I have a big announcement. And I'm talking to the author of never enough the neuroscience and experience of addiction. those that know me know that I'm completely obsessed with the mind the brain. I know sometimes people think of those as two different things, but we can kind of get into it. But what I thought was so good about this book, right? And what I love about science in general, is that it has a way when we you understand sort of the mechanics of it, it kind of depersonalized us and helps us to answer or resolve the things like guilt and shame which she which seemed to me to be a block or a barrier to healing. So I thought maybe we could start first with your a little bit of your story. Like what is I know you've been sober for 35 years? Congratulations. Unknown Speaker 1:29 It is long time. Yeah. really grateful. Yeah, I it's funny that you mentioned guilt and shame, because I, I could see in my own life, how initially, drugs end up including alcohol were sort of the self or guilt and shame that was just it is still sort of deep in my bones. I'm not sure if it's genetic, or environmental or what, but I am, well acquainted with self criticism, and just, I guess, feelings of unworthiness. And I almost didn't realize that until I had my first drink, which was right about the time of my 13th birthday. And I was a good drink. I mean, I had little sips here and there, but I got loaded for the first time at that age. And more than anything else, it was this great relief, because I suddenly either didn't care or was made, you know, kind of transiently whole in a way that was so profound, so people talk about it all the time. But it did literally feel as if that absence was running over and you know, with fullness, I guess and so, I because I was off to the races pretty pretty dramatically. I grew up in a I guess there's no such thing as a typical home, but I was certainly fairly advantaged and you know, had no big traumas. I guess that's also kind of a funny thing to say. But you know, in light of how hard it is to grow up, I think I was fairly on the easy half anyway. And, but I got this alcohol, I spent 10 years taking as much of every single mind altering drug I could find. I remember one time I found some pills and I just, you know, took them, I was kind of, and I still am, I guess a little bit all or none so I, I was definitely I went from none to all. And as a result, I was kicked out of my first school in 10th grade. It was a, you know, girls Catholic school, so they didn't go for the kind of thing I was up to. And then to colleges I was expelled from and I was homeless intermittently, often, I contracted hepatitis C sharing dirty needles. And I hated myself really, I did hate myself that was probably my bottom was as kind of self loathing, so that I was just a teeny bit unwilling even though at the time, right around the time my 23rd birthday, I thought, drugs and alcohol were the solution to my problems of the cause. I was sort of willing to go to what I thought was going to be like a spa, an educational spa, which they was treatment. This was in the 80s so I had no idea about drug treatment at all. I just heard the word treatment and it seemed to be something I deserved. So anyhow, I ended up in what was more like a hospital for crazy adolescence and, and there without drugs in my body for a few weeks, I got kind of scared at the disaster of my life. And, and I guess I wasn't you know, it's an interesting thing as we talk about how we have to sort of see it and be willing to change. I was barely willing, I feel like I was kind of plucked out of my situation. And I had just enough grace or openness. I am sort of an experimentalist at heart. And I, I think I figured they were all saying to me from going on too much, by the way. Arlina But anyway, I was saying, you know, if you want to live, you're gonna have to quit using and I thought, No way. There's got to be another way work around. Yeah, work around, there's a backdoor somewhere. So I figured I would cure my addiction was going to take me seven years, I was going to stay clean for that seven years. Well, I solved the disease of addiction, which is what everybody was saying. And then I would use and so I was open minded and totally, you know, arrogant ignorance, naive, I don't know. But I, I was willing to do seven years, I guess, Arlina Allen 6:26 what was the seven years to get your degree? You know, Unknown Speaker 6:28 no, I think I wasn't thinking that clearly. I figured that I started when I was 13, I was 23, I decided I wasn't really in terrible shape, you know. So it was like seven years of intense addiction. Somehow it seemed balanced to me, if I could clear it up in seven years, and then there was just no way you were gonna tell me, I was going to spend the rest of my life without drugs, which is what my life is completely about by that time. So yeah, I was scared enough to be willing enough to be open enough to try a different way temporarily. And I remember when seven years came, by the way, and went and I looked around my life was a zillion times better. It wasn't, you know, easy, by any means. But it was definitely better. And my curiosity had kind of come back. And so I, you know, kind of a data time is, you know, stuck it out. And so here I am, 35 years clean and sober, still have not cured addiction, still very interested in the role of science in understanding and treating and preventing addiction, but also recognize that there's a lot that science doesn't know. And so, yeah, I think, yeah, it's been a it's been a fun, rich trip. Arlina Allen 8:07 It's fun. That's, that's awesome. I mean, we were people who insist on having a time that's for sure. I think that's so amazing that so so you became abstinent at 23. From then on, he became abstinent. Unknown Speaker 8:22 I mean, I smoked a few cigarettes and I'm completely addicted to coffee, but I don't think that his account had other than nicotine, any mind altering chemicals, and I've been tempted many times, so it's not like I just said, you know, that's it for me, I guess. Yeah, just a long, long time. Arlina Allen 8:46 You know, I knew that you and I were going to be friends when you talked in your book about like, the your love of weed. Oh, my gosh, if I there was a period of time that if I was awake, I was high. Right? I grew up in the church and the preacher's daughter. The pastor's daughter once told me she's like, I'm high. So often that not being high was as my altered reality. And I was like, Oh, my God, you're my hero. I want to be just like you. And I was. But in your book, you talk about how I see after I got sober. It took me a little over a year to go a single day without wishing for a drink. That is rough. But it was more than nine years before my craving to get high abated during that, and I think I'm so glad that you've mentioned that because I think a lot of people especially those who are 12, step oriented, are you know, they hear stories about like, the obsession to use is lifted, or they're on this pink cloud. And I think for people who don't have that experience, they feel They're doing something wrong. Right. But Unknown Speaker 10:02 I think for Bill Wilson, right, it was just an overnight thing. And for many of us, it's sometimes slowly and for I was definitely have a slow variety. I, I really, and when I say, you know, for the craving to abate, I really seriously wish to get high for most days, those nine years. Yeah. And I, you know, the more time that went by the more, I could see what was at risk. So when I first got clean, you know, there's nothing to lose, because you're at rock bottom. But, you know, as a result of putting one foot in front of the other things got much better. So, you know, then I could kind of see that, and then I remember so well, I can almost taste it the experience of not wanting to smoke, and I can remember how all the sudden, I was okay to be in concerts that were indoors with good weed around me. Or, you know, I was sort of indifferent. Like I was like, I had been to alcohol. You know, I'm, I have served alcohol to friends. And I was kind of in that position, like, I don't care if you smoke or not. And then it got I had the craving come back. I was, I was joke about this, but right around menopause. I just knew that, for me, an antidote to the anxiety and just sort of the brittle angst of hormonal changes, I guess was going, you know, could be smoking. And, you know, anxiety is so epidemic, and I hadn't really had a ton of it until, and there was other things going on in the world, we can just say at that. But, anyhow, oh my gosh, and I think I say this in the book, too. But I, I, at the time, I was thinking maybe I'll get cancer and my doctors make me smoke. And then little I do you know, I mean, I was wishing for, you know, some kind of serious illness. So Arlina Allen 12:23 our minds play funny tricks on us, it doesn't matter how long you're sober. It's just weird layer. If that was ever a solution in your mind. I've heard that dopamine is like the Save button. Right? I don't know if you've ever heard of Dr. Andrew Haberman, he talks about how in nature like a deer that will find water, they get like dopamine is released. And that's how they remember where the water is. And it's almost similar for us. Like when we do something that makes us feel good. Dopamine is then released. And it helps us to remember what made us feel good. And I feel like it's burned in my psyche that if I take a bomb hat that I'm going to feel good. And I have other solutions, but it's all it's I don't think that idea is ever gonna leave me, you know, 27 years sober. I was telling you earlier that my younger son went to rehab. And this all was predicated because we found a Bag of Weed in his room and duty, I had not held a bag of marijuana for almost 30 years. And when it was in my hand, this plastic baggie, it was like I was a teenager again. And my inner drug addict was like, well, maybe we should, maybe we could maybe maybe. And I was like, I was actually a little alarmed almost a little bit of shame. Like seriously, after all this time, after all the work I've done. It's still there. I mean, it's just so engrained in my brain, I guess. Unknown Speaker 14:00 Absolutely. And I think the one of the interesting things about the story, you just told us that the ability of a drug to make to release dopamine is different across the population. So for some people, that marijuana let's say, or alcohol doesn't do much to that for me, and for other people. It's really a potent signal. And I think that is part of the reason some of us are more at risk than others and and also the reason why it's not a really reasonable argument to say, you know, why don't they just put it down because it is like a thirsty person finding water as opposed to somebody who's completely satisfied finding water, you know, you can take it or leave it. So I think that's true. And also the brain. You know, learning is absolutely persistent. So Pretty sure we will both be I guess subject to those kinds of, you know, triggers through our until we die. Arlina Allen 15:11 Yeah, maybe, maybe this is a good time to ask you, you know, what is what's different in that? So you're you have your PhD in neuroscience. And you know, he got sober and went on this quest to cure addiction. What have you found that's different about the brain of people who get addicted so quickly? Unknown Speaker 15:34 Mm hmm. Well, I guess the, what I want to say first is that it's not simple, I thought I was gonna be a little switch that we were going to discover, and I wasn't alone in this, I think this was scientific understanding in the 80s, we'll find that, you know, broken switch or molecule or circuit and fix it. It's definitely not that way. So the causes of addiction are very complex and intersectional. They involve differences in dopamine and other genetic liabilities, or protective factors that make the the initial sensitivity to a drug, different across different people. So some try a drug for the first time and absolutely love it. About a third of people, for instance, try opiates and don't like them at all. And they usually try them in the doctor's office, but they find them aversive. So obviously, that's a good protective, Arlina Allen 16:40 meaning, meaning they don't like the way they feel. Yeah, so weird to me, Unknown Speaker 16:45 largely genetic. I know. Right? So very big individual differences. And then there are sex differences. So women tend to appreciate drugs that provide relief. And then justice is overgeneralizing a little bit Sure, overall, tend to appreciate drugs that make them feel good. And so women don't want to feel bad, and drugs help with that, certainly, especially and men like to feel good. Another big factor, and probably the largest factor more than genetic liability is adolescent exposure. So kids, like your son and my daughter are tuned into Well, they have, they have a particular kind of brain that is the adolescent brain that is really prone to trying new things, really prone to not worrying is certainly abstractly worrying about consequences. So they're less cautious. And they, they want to buck against whatever they're told, they shouldn't do. And those three traits like novelty seeking, and risk taking, and not really caring about consequences are ones that help them to become adults, if they just listened to their parents until they were 35. No one would really like that. So they they're designed to kind of say, not this, you know, I'm making my own way, which would be good if there wasn't so many high potency, dangerous ways of escaping at their fingertips. So I think through most of our evolutionary history, these you know, kids having that tendency is is no problem. The other thing that kids have in their brains are different about is that, and we all know this, they are terrific at learning. I'm teacher, and it's crazy, because and you probably noticed this with your own children, but they don't seem to even be paying attention. yet. They are like sponges information really goes in. And if they were learning French, or if they're learning addiction, both ways, their brain is really quick to take the experience and build it into the structures so that it's lasting, and I can learn French, or addiction, but your chances are so much lower. So if you start using any addictive drug, before you're 18 you have about a 25% chance of developing a substance use disorder. And the earlier you start using, the higher the chance, I started 13 so you know it was basically more likely than not. And that's because 13 year olds are great at picking up new information, much better than 33 year olds. So they if you if you Wait, on the other hand till you're 21, your chances are one in 25. Arlina Allen 20:06 Wow, I told Unknown Speaker 20:07 my kids that and I tell my students that and they all ignore me. Why? Because they're high novelty seeking high risk taking, and they don't really want to listen to the, you know, concerns or worries. I mean, that's not how they're designed. So we're in a kind of a perfect storm for them. And that, that is the best predictor of developing a problem starting early is starting or like, Arlina Allen 20:30 you know what terrifies me nowadays I have a nephew who's 26 years old. And he's had four friends died from accidental fentanyl overdose, because for whatever reason, drug dealers are putting fentanyl and everything. And you know, these are pretty well adjusted kids. I don't think it's I know that there's a certain percentage of the population who indulge a little bit who don't have a disorder. Or maybe that's Yeah, is that is that true? Unknown Speaker 21:02 Well, it's, it's more true if you start at 26. And if you start at 16, as I just said, but I think the reason that nose and everything is because it is so is it a traffic, it's so so potent, that a tiny bit can get the whole town high. So it's really advantageous to traffickers. And also, because people are having access to more and more chemicals. And when they start early, especially their reward pathway, the dopamine pathway we've been talking about is kind of desensitized, so they can't, you know, have a cup of wine coolers that doesn't do the trick at all anymore, they need something a little more, because they're sort of immune to the that dopamine, squirt? So yeah, unfortunately, I think that's another reason it's not gonna. We, I think focus, we've also noticed lately that there's more and more overdoses from methamphetamine, and then from somebody who's been looking at the trends for a long time, it's always be something and there's always going to be more potent, whatever. So it's not the drug itself, as much as this very narrow ledge that more and more of us are on trying to, I guess, medicate reality. And and so, you know, I think, I don't know how that is for your nephew. But it's a terrible lesson to have to learn for all of us. Arlina Allen 22:51 It's just, it just makes me sick. I mean, I think there was a report that was released, I think it was at the end of March, there was a 12 year period that they were measuring overdoses that ended in March, and I think they track like 80,000 deaths. And, and I just think about all the families like all the mothers, all the all the fathers and siblings, and just everybody that's affected by so many deaths, and Unknown Speaker 23:19 and I think a 40% increase in those deaths over the last year with COVID. So the isolation as Alicia is, has made, and also the the higher, you know, the more likely you are to find fentanyl, and whatever it is you're taking at, which is just hard to prepare for I think, biologically. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it's tragic. It's so tragic. Arlina Allen 23:50 And then and then so my mind naturally goes, Well, what can we do about it? You know, it's like, we can understand, I love how, you know, science will sort of break down the mechanics. And once we understand, you know, alcohol is addictive drugs are addictive. I mean, there's a reason why they're illegal, right? It's because they're so harmful. But, you know, and then we can get into the causes, right? Like you mentioned, it's a very complex issue, you know, we you mentioned, do you that you didn't have any big trauma growing up, but I feel like, you know, we were sort of in that generation where we were not like things like ADHD and anxiety and depression weren't really talked about a whole lot. And we really didn't know how to treat those. And so our parents handled us with a lot of tough love. I got a lot of tough love and you know, from reading your book and listening to your interviews, it sounds like you were raised with that as well. And then your Can we just talk a little bit about your dad, like I wonder what it was. We talk a lot about science and it sort of leaves God out a little bit. But in my experience, it feels like there are things that are sort of serendipitous or magical about the unusual things that happen that lead us to a life of recovery. Like, what was your dad's role and your recovery? Unknown Speaker 25:23 Um, yeah. So, so much in that question, especially, I guess I want to start by saying that I agree that we did not recognize trauma, and anxiety and all mental illnesses, wait, their response was, was so different, I think. And in my house, it was to push through both my father's parents were immigrants. And he dealt with life by controlling everything he could. And that worked great until he, you know, met 13 year old me. And I was absolutely out of control, by definition, and Arlina Allen 26:11 he would have been terrifying to me. Unknown Speaker 26:13 I was terrified. And I was I was, like, determinately, out of control. I mean, that was my goal to be absolutely out of control. And the more both my parents tried to kind of constrain me, the less manageable I was, and I guess I, I don't think I'm unique in this. I mean, I've raised three children. And so it's something built into the teenage neurobiology. And I had it probably in spades. So his way of life because Arlina Allen 26:45 you're smart, smart kids are harder to race. Unknown Speaker 26:48 I don't know. I'm also, one thing I like about myself more than if I have any smartness is, is that I'm, I guess, strong willed. And so I don't know if that actually goes with intelligence or not, but I'm not the one who's following so much. And so I wasn't named, I wasn't influenced really by too much of what people, you know, just like you said, you know, you try to get the information out. Drugs are dangerous, but it doesn't really have an impact my kids have grown up with man, they've been sort of forced to look at graphs and things. And, you know, they'll say to me, my daughter said to me the other day, you know, I know all this. But and that is sort of how I was, and I didn't know that much. My mother was giving me a reader's digest reprints you know, of how lead would damage your ovaries and stuff. But anyway, you're like, Arlina Allen 27:49 Oh, good, I will get pregnant. Unknown Speaker 27:51 No, I didn't. Yeah, wasn't on my radar at all. But anyhow, my father, because I think it was so painful to be around me. And to watch me his strategy, which is kind of in our family, I guess, was just denial that he even had a daughter. So during a period, after they kicked me out of the house, right about my 10th birthday. He, he would, and he would say that he had two sons. It was just too much for him. And this is kind of the way he is. So it's, and I think it's fragile. That's what he was. And he was raised to be fragile, because it was a lot to worry about, because they were poor immigrants and you know, a million ways to not make it and I think that's common for a lot of people today. So my father was just able to block it out. And we have a family friend who I dedicated the book to father, Marty Devereaux, who is this kind of an unbelievable, interesting person. He's in his 80s. Now, we're still good friends, but he is a psychologist, and has a lot of experience with addiction and also a Catholic priest. And he told my father, and don't my father's not really Catholic. I mean, he was raised Catholic, but that doesn't mean too much these days. So anyway, he Arlina Allen 29:19 Where was he from? Marty Devereaux? No, I'm sorry. Your said Your father was an immigrant. Oh, Unknown Speaker 29:24 he was born in Atlantic City. But his mother was from Slovenia, and his father from Switzerland. And they met in Central Park. They were both, you know, one was a baker one was a housecleaner. And they sent two sons to college and wow. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's a pretty typical American story. Yeah, yeah. But um, anyway, Marty said take her out to dinner and bring her flowers like on a date. Well, I have No idea what how my father did this because he's, he's just not the type to waste any money on flowers, or two. And I was when I say I think I tried to convey this in the book. But when I imagined myself now at that moment, I was pretty deplorable. I was probably quite smelly and dirty. I was, at this point, sort of living in a one bedroom apartment with many people. And I was pretty gross. So anyway, this is when you were 23. I was not quite 23. So his takeaway? Yeah, so we he picked me up and you know, so not only was I gross, I was completely belligerent. I, I thought that my parents were terrible. And I didn't want any part of their fascist, you know, existence. And yet, I deserved a nice dinner, of course. So my big dilemma, I will not I really can still almost feel this was how we were going for early bird dinner, because it's my dad. And I'm very frugal. Yeah, he is wealthy and frugal. And Arlina Allen 31:27 that's how I get wealthy. Unknown Speaker 31:28 Yeah, I mean, this is sort of the first thing I guess. But anyway, Arlina Allen 31:32 and that was a dad begged my dad, maybe it is a dead Unknown Speaker 31:35 thing. He was also an airline pilot, so just not extremely cautious. He still is. And he's, he's in his 80s today, and we have a great relationship. But anyway, I was so stuck, because when he was picking me up, maybe quarter to five, but I had to figure out between 11 when I woke up and six hours later, how to be not too high when he came, you know, high enough, but not too high. And of course, this is harder and harder to achieve at this point in my life, because I could either be passed out or getting ready to be I mean, it was just hard to find that place. So anyway, he picks me up, he takes me out. And he said, and we talked about this still. Dude, I just wanting you to be happy. And I guess I should say, he doesn't remember saying that. But I know he said it. Because it was the most unlikely words that could ever come. And this is sort of what you were getting at, I guess where did those words come from? They're not my dad. My dad was worried about my teeth and the way you know, a lot of things but not my happiness ever. No, probably it's hard for him. And I had of course, no. No adequate response to that because I was absolutely miserable. And it went right into my heart. I fell apart. Yeah, it was a funny like tears Arlina Allen 33:10 in my eyes. Just to think that the hard ass dad was so sweet, right? When you needed it the most. I know, Unknown Speaker 33:17 you know what he tells me now it's funny. He, I was so out of it. I guess I don't remember the flowers. But he took me in his very clean car and my friends I guess to the beach to go for a swim that same day, that same after dinner. And we got to fill the sand. And that's what he remembers as his biggest stretch. And what I remember as his biggest stretch is him reaching across the table with his heart and saying, I want you to live basically. I mean, he sent me how I think he he met a lot by that. And my mother was not invited to the dinner. I hadn't spoken with her in a long time either. But she had been researching treatment centers for years she had had a court order actually in Florida, there's an act where you can commit somebody because of their addictions. And they thought over that a lot. But anyway, next thing I knew they flew me to a treatment center, which of course I had no idea what I was getting into and saved my life really. That place did. So I feel really fortunate that I had that opportunity to wake up a little bit as I think for the chances are that my father wouldn't have said that my mother wouldn't have had the resources to know what to do and I would have died on the streets probably not too much longer. Arlina Allen 34:52 I feel like that really speaks to you know, people just didn't have solutions, right and they get so far straighted that their only choice is to disown right. Like I had that same experience with my mom, she disowned me on a regular basis, like she was an immigrant from Mexico. And although my father was, you know, his, his people have been here a long time. Like, they didn't know what to do with me either. And, you know, my dad was always the sweet and nurturing one, but he was, you know, he's former Marine, he was a government guy, he was kind of a hard ass, and in a lot of respects, but, you know, our parents, you know, just, it's just speaks to the love of a parent, you know, you want to save your kids. You know, you see your kids are suffering and like, my mother just didn't know how she was so frustrated that she would disown me on a regular basis. But I think when I think it's the contrast between like, a little bit of sweetness goes a long way, because it's not what we're used to. It's so shocking. Like, shocking to the system, Unknown Speaker 36:00 let's thought about it a lot, because I do think there's a, I had a boyfriend at the time who died. Oh, overdose. And his parents were extremely sweet. So it's hard. And you could say they sweeted him into his last big use, but um, I don't know that there's a recipe I think if if there was one thing that, that I tried to do with is to show up and be honest, and I think it was so painful for my parents, both of my parents to just grapple with what happened to their little girl, that their tendency was to not show up. And I don't blame them. I mean, it's it's tough. It's tough raising teenagers sometimes because they're not that it's almost unrecognizable, you know, from the sweet nine year olds, or the 99 might become, but I think what we're called to do for each other is to tell the truth, not their truth. You know, I don't you know, you're speaking from him first himself. He said, Yeah, I was. I mean, I think this was true for him, I think, really at the core, and somehow he had the grace to find it. What all he really wants and all, probably any parent wants their kid to be well, and whatever well looks like for us. And I think the fact that he could say that was kind of miraculous. Arlina Allen 37:42 Very, yeah, that was absolutely. sneak up for Marty, right? Unknown Speaker 37:47 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, I Arlina Allen 37:50 think yeah, it's, it's just, yeah, my mom was, she was really tough. And I remember growing up, she's going through her second divorce. And all my hair started falling out, like a lot I was under, and nobody knew what was going on. And you know, when it ended is one day, she let me curl up in her lap and cry. I had a good cry. And then my hair stopped falling out after that. Wow. Yeah. And I think it was like, there needs to be this balance. Like I feel like as a parent I attend like we tell our kids that we love them all the time. And I almost feel like maybe we maybe it's a little too much sweetness. You know, I have I have the the hard ass edge me because I think I inherited that from my mom. But you know it when you get something different from your parent, it is kind of jolting. It is kind of healing, it can be life changing, if it's different. So if you're sweet all the time, when you show up with boundaries that can be jolting. When you're a hard ass your whole life and you show up with a little bit of sweetness. It can be start, it's like a pattern interrupt, you know that. It's just kind of interesting. And I wanted to ask you a little bit Unknown Speaker 39:09 of a story, by the way. But your mother obviously was disappointed, you know, and her own struggles, but that she was able to be with you. And warning I think that is really a bridge. Arlina Allen 39:28 That was it made me feel you know, like the talk about original wounds, like I don't matter, or I'm unlovable because I'm either too much or not good enough. Right. Or maybe that I'm alone, you know, those original wounds, and I feel like I had all those but my mom, you know, in that moment, it's like those, like that moment that your dad had like they were willing to do something different. Like they had a glimmer of hope, like somebody gave them hope and they decided to do something different. And that's kind of what But you said your dad reached across the table with his heart, you know, and it was like, there is something that's transmitted, like when people are really vulnerable and honest and coming from their heart. That's so healing. Right? And I feel like that's a lot of what recovery has been about for me is that just that willing to be vulnerable and have a degree of humility, it's a lot of times kind of, like forced humility. It's like, like, I have to get honest about what what's really going on, so that I can get the solution. But you know, as a parent, you know, we're talking about our kids, and how do we reach our kids, because I think that's, you know, in this day and age, a lot of us that have had addiction issues, you know, we're worried about passing it down to our kids. And we thought we were talking earlier about leading by example, right, we need to lead by example for our kids, and it's so hard to know, I felt like we're walking this fine line. Because, you know, kids commit suicide all the time, like, you know, and the, there's all these ideas, like kids are like, a very aware of anxiety and depression, and being socially awkward, and there seems to be, you know, and as a parent, it's like, you want to encourage them to get help and take responsibility for their feelings at the same time, you don't want to push them too hard, because that is the ultimate threat is that they will commit suicide. Right. And it's, and I know that they're taking drugs to medicate, I took drugs to medicate. And I used to say that, you know, drugs, drugs, were my savior for a long time. If, if I had to feel, you know, especially those young years 1415 if I had to feel all the feelings, because I didn't have any coping skills, I don't know that I would have survived. So, you know, I know you've been trying to cure addiction, and what are some of the things that, you know, besides leading by example, for our kids, how can we, how do we, how do we fix this duty? How do we, Unknown Speaker 42:08 I think we show up for each other is to start I don't know. But I, I do feel, and everybody says this, I guess every generation notices this, but I do think it is an inordinately challenging time to be growing up. I was saying to a student in my office, not too long ago, you know, if you're not anxious, you're crazy. Because and crazy is probably not the right word for Psychology at it. You know, and here I am a psychologist, I'm not all that correct times. But I think that you at least if you're not anxious, and you're growing up right now, you're somehow blind and deaf, or in denial, yeah, or in a massive denial, which I don't even know, I think that I think what's different, and what shifted for my dad, and what continues to be something that I work on, is to respond to all this pain, the natural response is to sort of curl up and close in, and to hide, and to take ourselves away. And as addicts you know, I still have a great capacity for denial that I have to check all the time. But I also found many tools to use. And that's why drugs are so compelling, because it was like, boom, you know, you've got a 10 foot wall now, between you and any realities, are safe and cozy, and delightful. And I think kids find drugs, you know, to do the same thing, but they also are stuck in a way because face it, that it's a tear, it's a hard time for any of us to be on the planet. And there's not a lot of great models of going through that awake and an honest and I guess, you know, I just try to put myself in the position of a nine year old, knowing, you know, probably on Instagram and every other thing, you know, how much suffering there is or is about to be. And then seeing the many ways, drugs and other ways that adults around are medicating and escaping. And even though you and I have been able to put down drugs, I think, at least for me, I guess I can still do want I naturally want to distance myself. And I don't I think that is a way to kind of abandon the nine year olds. I don't know how old you were when you're here was five out but I think as about maybe than nine or 10 Yeah, the metaphor is put our heads on each other's laps and, and just cry, you know, cry or or whimper or hope or try or touch each other I think in touch each other in the in the true spot where there is anxiety and depression and fear because if we can't do that and there's so many opportunities to escape I you know we're in a kind of a vortex going down the drain here because the more we escaped the worst things grow around us because we don't have to deal with them. And then the young people see oh my gosh, it's, you know, this is a crazy house. This being Earth. So I, I think or your family, I suppose but I, I guess we're both your mother and my father were able to do was recognize, you know, the truest piece of themselves and their children and respond honestly. Yeah. And that sometimes that might be kindness, sometimes that might not be kindness. But I think it's honesty, that's the, the, the thing we're really lacking or, or, you know, maybe the, the lifesaver would be Yeah, Arlina Allen 46:44 I think in that moment, there was, you know, a high degree of empathy. Bernie Brown is a shame researcher, she talks about empathy is the antidote to shame. Right? I've heard people say that, you know, this is a disease of isolation and connection is the cure. And you know, I really feel like connection is one of those one of those solutions to all this, like, we need to connect with each other. We're, you know, as human beings, we actually really need each other. Unknown Speaker 47:15 Oh, my goodness, yeah. Arlina Allen 47:17 Yeah, I need to be around easily cope with stress Unknown Speaker 47:20 is by social support. And there's tons of evidence that social support, not only mitigates, but also reverses the effects of stress. And it is, you know, surely a big part of, of getting better as individuals and also as communities and families, I think, recognizing that and it's tough because my parents kicked me out your your mother disowned you. And partly for me that facing the consequences of my decisions was helpful. But I do think that's harder because fentanyl wasn't around. You know, you you don't want to face them in the ultimate, you know, right, way too early. So I guess as parents we, we try to block a very tough line these weird. Yeah, it is hard. Arlina Allen 48:23 Yeah. But I'm glad to hear that there's evidence that shows that social support mitigates and reverses stress, that's amazing. It kind of confirms everything that we knew, right? Like, we got sober we got social support, we, you know, had lots of people who had done it before us so learning by example, I hear that hope I've heard hope is hearing other people's experiences, which is why I do the podcast right? You know, people that listen, go Okay, you know, we can talk about the mechanics how, how the brain works, and all that and how it's affected by alcohol. And you know why it's a bad idea. But then hearing about like the turning point, like when your dad reached out to you, and you were at that place where I'm sure you had you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Ready, just ready enough, you talk about just having just a tiny bit of willingness. It's a little chink in the armor. How long were you in that? That rehab in the 80s Unknown Speaker 49:29 I was in for 20 days, which seemed like nine years and then I was in a halfway house for three months, which I calculated at the time so I know this is true was 1/27 of my life or something. I forget how I did that or something like that. I had some kind of crazy mula totally a rip off. I was so furious. But I, I was, like I say at the turning point, and there's been so many times, you know, I know where things are. Lena, we're talking about openness. And I think one way I could be honest, is to say, even after setting addiction for 35 years, and having all this personal and scientific experience, I still need to be open to all I don't know. And certainty is a lie, you know, certainty is the biggest illusion. And so here we are kind of trying to get through. And I think that is what I first had in my I was very certain until I'm in the treatment center. And I'm asked to try a different way. And I was troubled, because on one way I went, and I could see my way was not going great. Like it was really not going well. And I could see that without the drugs, you know, for a few weeks. But to do an another way that was extremely vague and chancy, and, you know, just seemed really crazy. To me. I was just stuck. And that, like you say this, just a tiny bit willing to say, I don't know. And, okay, you know, and this is a still, I think where I am I one of the things I love about recovery the most is that it is always different. And, you know, I thought that drugs were gonna give me this great, you know, every day is a big surprise, you know, who knows if it's the cops or that whatever. It just turned out to be adrenaline, but it was a grind, it was not really novel or interesting. And in fact, 35 years later, I'm I'm just astounded by how much mystery there is, in any day. It's just breathtaking. So I guess that I have to show up for that, you know, I have to not buy into the lie that I know exactly what I'm doing. Right? Arlina Allen 52:20 I think the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know, a lot. You know, yeah, that is a I do love that about recovery is that every day is kind of new again, you know, and that we don't have to, and there's so much interesting research going on. Now I know that, you know, and I didn't I feel like we're running out of time, but that there is so much research now on helping people with chronic addiction through things like psychedelics. It's just like, you know, I I practice abstinence. So that's, let's face it, my life is fine. Like I don't, you know, need that. But for the chronic alcoholic who meets some criteria of like, you know, post traumatic stress disorder, and things like that. I know, Johns Hopkins is doing some interesting studies about that. That Yeah, there's still so much to learn about, about the brain and addiction and how to help people. Where do you see the focus of your work in the next, I don't know, five to 10 years? Unknown Speaker 53:28 Well, can I just respond to this thing about the psychedelic so Arlina Allen 53:33 Oh, sure. Yeah, cuz Yeah, you wrote a lot about it, and you're But well, I read some about Unknown Speaker 53:36 And I think it's congruent with what other people are writing to that it may be those drugs may be a useful tool. But it reminds me that they go back to what you were saying earlier, the the benefit of those drugs is in their ability to help us connect with something bigger than ourselves, you know, which could be the love of other people. And I think that it reminds me that every drug is only doing nothing new, it's a total we have the capacity to do ourselves. So the way the pharmacology goes is that drugs work by exploiting pathways we already have. So in a way, this opportunity for transcending ourselves to connection with others, maybe helped by psychedelics, but those are not the answer. The answer is transcending ourselves by connecting with ourselves in something bigger than ourselves. So I would say that what I'm working on now Well, I there's so much that I am excited to do I wish I could stay up later, but I've got my research lab going. I'm studying sex differences in addiction. I'm also studying initial responses. to drugs and I'm interested in the genetic difference, individual differences that are mediated by an interaction of genes and say stress or other kinds of environmental influences. But I'm also hoping to write another book and I have this is funny because I'm, I don't really consider myself the book writing type, I'm kind of like the short, quick, get it done thing. And the first book took 10 years. So I don't have that a 10 years. I know so sad. Because I was busy, I was raising children and I was trying to get grants and we're, you know, grade papers and all that. So I can't do that, again, I don't, I have three books, so I'm probably not going to live long enough. So three books I want to write and I have a sabbatical coming up. And I'm hoping that I will have an opportunity to spend the year getting at least one of those out either on the adolescent vulnerability to addiction or on sex differences in the causes and consequences of addictive drugs, or just a kind of more philosophical take on. Because so a response to the opportunity that everybody alive on the planet has today to take substances and just as you were saying, sometimes for some people, those and some substances might be beneficial, and sometimes not. And I think that understanding and sort of finding your way to a personal ethic of how, what drugs in my life requires and appreciation of science, but also of you know, our honest assessment of who and where we are our development and what drugs are doing for instance, I this is just a little thing, but I read the other day that the marijuana industry is really exacerbating the droughts on the west coast. And that is a sort of a dilemma for this idea. And I mean, I I think there may be benefits also, but you know, it's not that our choices, if we know anything in October of 2021, we realize that our individual choices have impact on others, and so and on ourselves. So I guess I want to just consider that and not in a you know, there's a lot that can be said about it. So anyway, I'm excited about all those things. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I'm hoping to take a break from teaching it's been a tough year and a half with COVID Yeah, routines and yeah, yeah, I think we're all kind of hobbling through Arlina Allen 58:03 Yeah, my heart goes out to all the teachers I know it's just been it's we're living in through unprecedented time so I really so grateful to all the teachers who've been able to hack it out and help our kids right it's it's really important work. You know, they I think they need as many people in their corner as they can get. So thank you for hanging it out and being available to all these kids. But I am so excited about your your book projects. I will personally be rooting for the one about adolescence. Unknown Speaker 58:38 Me too, that one almost could write itself the data, you know, in the last 1520 years are overwhelming. And so it's really a good time to get that out. And, and adolescents are like sitting ducks today. And that is not their problem. That's all of our problem. Arlina Allen 59:00 Oh yeah, they're our future. Right? I remember people saying that about us. Listen, thank you so much for your time today. When you get done with that book. You come on back and we'll talk about that one too. Unknown Speaker 59:13 Okay. Arlina Thank you for having me. It's been really nice. Yeah, such Arlina Allen 59:16 a pleasure. We'll talk soon thanks. Bye bye.
This week we are discussing a perplexing murder that may or may not have been solicited, and the secret life of a man that may or may not have been innocent. Thank you to Haley with HaleyGrayResearch.com for your help on the episode. Thank you to this week's sponsors! If you're looking to upgrade your windows in style, check out www.hunterdouglas.com/moms TODAY to take advantage of the Season of Style rebate sales event. Offer expires December 6th, 2021. Proven quality sleep is life-changing sleep. Special offers now available for a limited time. Only at Sleep Number stores or www.sleepnumber.com/MOMS. Go to www.withagency.com/MOMS for a free 30-day trial, just pay $4.95 for shipping and handling! Subject to consultation. Choosing products that are better for you and the planet has never been easier. For a limited time, when my listeners go to www.grove.com/MM you will get to choose a FREE starter set with your first order. Listen and subscribe to Melissa's other podcast, Criminality!! It's the podcast for those who love reality TV, true crime, and want to hear all the juicy stories where the two genres intersect. Subscribe and listen here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/criminality/id1551366002. If you'd like to support The Mom's and get some fun perks, including bonus episodes and early release- ad free episodes, you can check out our Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/momsandmurderpodcast. As always, you can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and on our website at https://momsandmurder.com. Make sure you subscribe and rate our show to help others find us! We updated our merch store, you can find that at momsandmurder.threadless.com! Connect with us on social media at:Facebook.com/MomsAndRedRumInstagram: @MomsAndMurderTwitter.com/MomsAndMurder Sources can be found at: https://momsandmurder.com/the-murder-of-jane-bashara/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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