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In this episode, I talk with Jenessa Berg. She shares her thoughts about motherhood as a creative process, birth-related terms that can be taken multiple ways, and the circle of support during birth.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: On today's podcast, I will be talking with my friend Jenessa Berg. Jenessa is the mother to three children, a dancer and dance teacher, and an aspiring birth worker. Welcome, Jenessa to the Birth Words podcast.   Jenessa: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.   Sara: I'm really looking forward to hearing your perspective and sharing it with our listeners today. So, I was really interested when we were messaging before that you mentioned that you see motherhood as an artistic and creative process. So tell me more about that.   Jenessa: Yeah, okay. So I think it might help to tell a little bit about my, my story. I started going to BYU a few years ago as a freshman and I was in the nursing program. And I, I was thinking, you know, I really want to be a nurse and probably a midwife later, I was really interested in you know, science and, and I like math and I was like, this seems like you know, like a good thing for me and, but then as I started getting more into it, I just felt like that wasn't going to be the best use of my talents. And like I could maybe be a good nurse, but that wasn't what I was supposed to do. And I'm a praying person and I prayed a lot about it, and I ended up switching to dance, which is a very different thing and part of me was like embarrassed because I thought that people were going to think that like, I wasn't smart or something. But as I got more involved in the arts, I experienced a lot of healing and, and my health got a lot better than it had been. And it was an interesting shift going from, you know, being you know, in this medical world to this artistic world, and my health was so much better. So now I've had I've had three children and as I've had my kids, I've recognized that yes, it is. It is. There is a lot of it that is medical. There's there's a lot of math and science involved in how it all works. But it's also so much more than that. And so, I've realized that you can move beyond the statistics and the evidence and everything and it's, and it's your story, and you get to create it. It’s not just you know, you just have to live something out. Like it's, it's something that you get to be a very active part of, if you choose to be. And you can make it into something really beautiful. So I've started kind of thinking of, I guess over the past three births. I've come to think of the whole process is more of a, you know, this is my story that we're creating. And, and these are moments that I get to choose. You know, I don't get to choose everything but I get to choose. I get to choose quite a lot actually. And it is a creative process and trying to make your life and the life that you're bringing into the world, making it all a beautiful process. Sara: Love that. So how do you think that that perspective comes out when you're interacting with other parents in your community?   Jenessa: Yeah, so that's an interesting question. Um, I think that it's very common to kind of just stop at the, “you know, this is what happened to me. And these are the, these are the are, these are the facts or this is how it worked, or this is how it happened” instead of really taking it a step further and saying, but this is my story, and I choose how it plays out. And so, a lot of times when I have conversations with people, you know, you hear a story and sometimes a birth story is like, well, I went to the hospital and then I and then I had this intervention in this intervention and then my baby was born. And I guess I, I just want people to have stories that they're proud of. And so that's part of why I've become more passionate about birth is because, you know, my first birth I kind of did that, you know. I just kind of, well, you know, I'll just go in and, you know, do what all the experts are telling me here and we'll see how it goes. And it didn't go very well. And when I kind of took things into my own hands and said, “You know, this is my story, and I'm the hero of the story. I'm going to make this a good story.” Yeah, it's just so much better when I've when I've changed that. And so when I when I interact with other people now I, I guess I try to help other people to recognize that it's their story and that they get to choose how it is. And that it's not just, you know, you just have to live it out whatever happens to you.   Sara: Yeah, I love that. So we're kind of jumping all over the place. We have it just a short amount of time, but you had so many good ideas that I was like, Yes, we have to talk about all of them. But only for a few minutes each.   Jenessa: We’ll have to have another session where you just talk… can be a sleepover.   Sara: Sounds good. Okay, so when you reached out to me, you mentioned that a topic that interests you, is that different words or phrases have very different connotations for different people. So can you give some examples of that?   Jenessa: Yeah. So, um, since I originally kind of had this idea that I shared with you, I've been making a list, so I'm just going to kind of read through and just give a little blurb about them. So one thing is, when people say, “we're pregnant,” instead of “I'm pregnant.” Some people think that that's like, a really great way of looking at it like “yes, I am the husband. We're pregnant, and we're doing this together and working together,” and some people take a lot of offense. “Yeah, excuse me. You don't have heartburn. You don't have to, you know, you don't have hemorrhoids. You you're not dealing with this. You're not carrying this baby around all the time. Like, how dare you say that?” You know, “we're pregnant.”   Sara: But yeah, some people are totally like, this is a dual process. And that's how I'm going to express it. So that's very…   Jenessa: Right. And for some people, I think that's a good thing for them.   Sara: Yeah. It's good to know where you fit in.   Jenessa: Yeah.   Sara: And where your partner fits in, so that you’re not…   Jenessa: Definitely. So the next one here, and this is one that you've talked about before, especially with Rebecca Decker, from Evidence Based Birth: delivery or deliver in birth. Um, some people just don't even think of that as a word that could be offensive. And some people are really upset by it because they think my baby is delivered from me like, right? No, my baby is like, it's not taken from me to free me of it or you know, so there's that one. Sometimes there's just words that are just…it's like they started out meaning one thing and then just got confused. So the word postpartum? It means the time period after birth, but a lot of people use it to refer to postpartum depression, right? Which can make it confusing. Yeah, like after I had my baby a few months ago, um, I had a friend and she was like, “Hey, how are you doing?” And I was like, “Oh, you know, just the, you know, postpartum is crazy.” And she was like, “Oh my gosh, like, let me come and like, help you out. Like I had postpartum depression too.” And like she… And I was like, you know, like, I'm, I'm.. I appreciate your concern and help but that's not what I was saying.   Sara: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think that it means that we have an increased awareness of it. But then we have this conflation of this term that just means like, yeah, time after baby's born and I’m adjusting to real life as a mother.   Jenessa: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So, Oh, here's a here's a phrase that yo some can be very comforting and to some just makes you very angry. And it's, “there's no trophy.”   Sara: Oh!   Jenessa: And I think most people have feelings about that   Sara: Right! Some people probably feel like, “Oh, you're right, that means I can do it my way. This is my story it doesn't matter, there's no prize!”   Jenessa: Exactly, right, like, I don’t have to worry about other people. And other people are like, “you think that I did that for a trophy? Like how shallow do you think I am? You know, like that's usually that's a—you know—phrase it's usually used in like, whether someone got an epidural or not. And, like of course it's not about a trophy, but some people can get… some people take great comfort from that phrase and other people, it just kind of lights a fire underneath them.. Another one very similar to that is, “you don't have to be a hero.”   Sara: MmmHmm.   Jenessa: Um, this one I thought was interesting. I heard a woman recently who had had a stillborn baby and she was really upset when people used the term “angel baby” and talking about her “angel baby” because she doesn't believe in God. And she doesn't have that belief. And she felt like people were always like giving her false hope. Like, no, like,   Sara: Not validating her grief.   Jenessa: Yeah, right. Exactly. Not validating her grief. Another phrase is, “leave it to the experts.” usually referring to medical professionals.   Just the phrase, or the word “natural.”   Sara: Yeah. That one can be so controversial.   Jenessa: Yeah. And it's funny because like, you know, they're just words, but we attach these meanings to them. And when we come at them from different directions, they can be hurtful or they can be… anyway, they can just have such different meanings.   Sara: You have such a good list. Can I like…?   Jenessa: Yeah, I'll send it to.   Sara: And maybe piggyback off of it for future episodes?   Jenessa: Yeah, totally. Totally.   Sara: You’ve got such a good list.   Jenessa: Yeah, I got another one. And this one, I also got from listening to this podcast—such a good podcast—when The VBAC Link was on here, and they talked about belly births, and how, you know, some women like that phrase and like, “Oh, yeah, like my cesarean birth was also a birth” and some people feel like “no, my cesearean birth was not a birth. That was something that I was robbed of.”   Sara: Right.   Jenessa: So yeah, it's interesting, like you wanna you just want to validate people, but sometimes the words that we use, they actually get some harm.   Sara: Yeah, because they come… and the words that I use or that you use They’re symbols that represent all of our lived experience relating to that concept, right? And like for you, and for me, we have totally different lived experiences. A lot of similarities, a lot of differences… and one little word, just a few letters packaged together can mean so much. Something so different to me than it does to you, than somebody in another state, another country, especially as we get into a wider circle.   Jenessa: Definitely. A couple more. There's when people say “easy way out.” And this is another one that’s sometimes with the cesarean section where people will say like, “No, that wasn't the easy way out, you know, like, how dare you say that?” And the interesting thing that I have noticed without phrases that I usually hear it in people who haven't given birth before, and they usually say it.. and it's just because they just don't know they just think “oh, like, I've heard that labor is terrible. So a cesarean section seems like the easy way out, so she must have chosen the easy way out.” You've had a C-section.   Sara: No, it’s not the easy way out! I had labor and a c-section, so…   Jenessa: Yeah, but just don't ever, I think pretty much don't ever tell a woman that she took the easy way ever.   Sara: Yeah. Or any person ever.   Jenessa: The easy way… I had I have an aunt who adopted three children. And someone told her once, “Oh, you went…you took it the easy way.” Because, you know, she didn't have pregnancy or labor, but she was like, okay, like all the years of therapy, like the years of waiting the years of infertility, all of the you know, like, what about the time where I thought that I was going to have a baby and I went and I met him and then his birth mother decided to keep him and you know, like that all this heartbreak years and years of heartbreak? Like, no, that was not the easy way. Ah, anyway, so that was really hurtful to her. And yeah, so I don't know. I don't know that that phrase is really helpful to anyone   Sara: It’s not a two-way think, it’s just a “Don't say that!”   Jenessa: But I think that that it is good to recognize though that a lot of people don't realize that got that that phrase can be so upsetting.     Sara: Wow. Okay. You've given me lots of things to think about over the coming weeks and months. I'm excited. Um, another topic… was that positions of authority in the birth experience. That's important to you. So what's your perspective about who is or who are the authority figures in birth and what responsibilities does an authority figure have?   Jenessa: Perfect. Okay, so um, I think that our society's general view of looking at birth and authority figures is kind of a hierarchy. And you have doctors up at the top, and then midwives because like, they're still pretty smart, but they're not doctors. And then underneath that, you have nurses. And then underneath that you have doulas and then at the bottom is mothers. And I heard someone say something recently about like if we're going to make any change in our maternity care, then it's got to start from the bottom—like you mothers—and I was like you've got to you've…you're at the bottom? …. Like I understood the point, but I was kind of bothered by that because, like—wait, mothers are at the bottom of the maternity care system?   Sara: Right, I have life inside of my body!   Jenessa: There would be no maternity care system without the mothers! Anyway. So like, I think that we need to stop with the whole hierarchy thing. And I'm not saying that we should switch it either. I'm not saying like mothers at the top and everybody else just bow to them. Because it's not quite that either. So I think like if… I'm a really visual person, so like… the way I like to think about it is more like the mother is the center. Everybody else… we're all on the same standing. Right? We're all people, we're all humans, we're all important. And birth professionals certainly have, you know, they're doing great work and they are important. It's not like you know, like they don't matter all. But the mother is in the center because she's the one that is bringing the life into the world and everyone else is surrounding her. It's a circle. A circle of support…   Sara   Do you want to like draw…? I think we can all probably imagine a circle. I love that visual. That's really powerful.   Jenessa: Yeah, I thought of that visual. Mostly… Well, as I was thinking about this, like, I just had this visual from when I was watching, when I was recently watching the video of my most recent birth, yeah. And Sara was my doula. You were my doula for that. And I also had, like, my mom was there and, and I had my midwife, my husband, and right at the part where it was just the very most difficult and I was like, Yeah, “oh, man, like, why am I doing this? Can I really do this? I don't think I can do this!” when I was in that moment. I was surrounded.   Sara: That’s beautiful   Jenessa: There were literally people you know, like there was someone holding each hand, there was someone behind me doing counter pressure. My midwife was there getting ready to catch the baby… like it was it was literally…and someone else was… I had like the nurse was, you know, checking for the fetal heart rate, and it was just really, like that felt right, you know, to be in the center of a circle.   Sara: It was beautiful to be on the outside of the circle too supporting you. Your birth was so beautiful. I love that too. Because so your videographer from that birth, Sarah Asay, also has a website and social media platform called Birth Circle. And that is the metaphor that she uses so much. And I've been doing some business training with her. She talks so much about we don't…this hierarchy is all wrong in…   Jenessa: It's just silly.   Sara: Yeah. Not just in the birth space. But if we think about businesses working that way, that's just not how we support one another. And I love the circle that she's creating of support for women and that she so beautifully took a video of so that you could see that visual. That's… Yes. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I love all of this. Thanks so much for being on the podcast today. If you had to summarize your feelings about birth, pregnancy, postpartum in one… and I don't mean depression, just the postpartum experience… In one word, what word would you choose?   Jenessa: Birth is sacred.   Sara: I love that. I really think that's beautiful. I agree. Thank you.   Jenessa: Thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This week's episode is a special one recorded AT the Evidence Based Birth Conference in Lexington, KY, where Dr. Sayida Peprah delivered two powerful keynote addresses. In this interview, Dr. Sayida discusses the importance of being authentic, humble, and curious when interacting with others from different cultures or circumstances.   TRANCRIPT: Sara: Welcome, Dr. Sayida, to the Birth Words podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here.   Dr. Sayida: Thank you.   Sara: I wanted to talk with you a little bit about some of the really important work you're doing around cultural humility and helping birth workers being aware of how they can support those who have been really victims of transgenerational trauma. And so my question for you is, what guidelines would you give to birth workers who are striving to show through their language that they are culturally competent, sensitive and humble? How do they show that in their spoken interactions with their clients?   Dr. Sayida: I think one of the most important things to me like as a psychologist who really, one of the most important parts of my work, especially working with people, typically in very intense situations when I'm coming in, or I'm being invited in or I'm being asked to be there, or they're being brought to me because there's like been a crisis … We don't know each other and there's a lot of intensity. I need to make like a very strong, immediate rapport so that we can like help solve the situation. So whether that's been like with the incarcerated population, and there's like aggression or frustrations going on, and the domestic violence shelter, I used to work in a center where women were coming directly from their abusive situation right to the emergency shelter where I was a therapist, and a psychiatric hospital working with people who had just attempted to take their life or just been brought in by family members out of concerns. And so, in all the various situations, there isn't time to like, get to know each other, and I have to be effective at showing people that I actually care and that I'm listening to them and that I don't have any overt biases against them. Most pertinently, like why they're coming in like oh, that you were in an abusive relationship to start with, or that you found yourself in prison to start with, or that you tried to take your life, or cut yourself or whatever. So that comes into play a lot. And what I think is most important is that I actually do care. So it's nothing that I do that's like a guideline, it's not a script. It's not like let me check and make sure that I do anything in particular, that I like, center myself, and I go into a space of like common humanity, where a person has found themselves in a very difficult situation. And I am like, blessed to be able to be with them at like their lowest moment and be with them, like as a human. And then I have some skills and some tools to help them through whatever it is. And to me that's not very different. And how I approach being a doula, which is outside of that practice in that work, but with the same energy of your person who is going through—and a lot of times its first time moms that are coming to want to have a doula, or women who've had experiences in birth and people who've had experiences that didn't actually reflect for them what they wanted in their first birth. So they're really coming like, I need support, right? When you come to a doula like, I want help right in some ways, and so, how do I show you that you don't have to be guarded with me? That you don't have to worry about trust issues because I have some other agenda, is that I don't have another agenda, right? Like I have to…really human beings really detect BS. Like we are like, masters at that, and especially people that have historical disparities, historical trauma, especially if it's race related, if they're marginalized populations, like they know, by protection and resilience of the community, like you teach every generation like you've noticed, ways that people protect themselves and dominant, like aggressive, potentially harmful spaces. And so that's a way of being that a lot of people have wherever they are marginalized, whether that's because of their gender identity, sexuality, whether it's race and culture, whether it's religion… of this, like, are you a safe person for me to be with people come with a guard, because they've had experience that they're not safe. And so how you show that they don't have to be is that you actually just have like, ease with them like, but you have to develop that as a person, right, in your own time. Like, you've got to know various types of people and I always tell people you need to think about the people that you're most uncomfortable working with. And get to know people who are in that lifestyle, whatever that looks like. And maybe especially with technology, it might look like just being familiar with images, documentaries, stories, like real ones, not like stereotyped characters of groups, but like watch things and read things that are from the community you're interested in and hear perspectives. So then you can learn like the world view, the experience, like listen to presenters, you know, that talk about you know, historical trauma or talk about how it is to be a queer person in the birth world and not be accepted, or even like talked about in general space but yet you're there and yet you're pregnant and yet you need support and that maybe there are birth workers that you know, have that you know, that you can be safe with, like how could you ever know that? But you could know that by the way people use language in open space, like if they're in a crowd of people like who they say hi to, like people notice that like if you're a bunch of people and there are people you feel uncomfortable with you typically avoid people you feel uncomfortable with. And I talked about that a bit and the implicit bias part that we talked about the other day, that people's eye contact is different, that their proximity is different to people that they don't feel comfortable with. And people notice that people, certain people avoid them often. And then it's like, oh, well, didn't seem too friendly. So probably not going to be the birth worker that I'm going to go to for this. Yeah. But the ones that are openly open and friendly and look you in your eye and greet you like basic human stuff, it is not deep. It's just real. And so the question is like, if you want to be if you have the question of how do I be more culturally congruent to work with a population that I don't know? That question means that you are not comfortable either because you haven't had opportunities to gain comfort, which is not necessarily a fault of your own. It could be demographics, situations, and we talked about the here at this conference was really interesting because certain people live in worlds that they, you know, maybe the first black person that they ever met was when they were in college, right. And so they had to leave where they were from and never had an experience where people are different outside of the TV, you know, and so like, you're going to have stereotypes. But being able to have experiences where you could sort of work out your discomfort on your own time and not work on your clients time, right? Which is not amazing to be like, “Oh, my gosh, I’ve never worked with a black family! Like, I hope I can do the best I can!” I mean, I feel your love and you're wanting to be helpful, but I also feel like I don't know what it means that you never work in a black family and that, like you're hoping you're going to be like that everything's gonna go okay, right. What does that mean? Like, are we different kind of human? And what does that mean for you? Yes, there are cultural things, but like, if that's like how you come to it, I feel like you should… And I don't want to say I don't think that certain people shouldn't work with certain people in that way. But you need to, if you are not comfortable working with certain people you create harm in the interactions through micro aggressions through, like inter personal in congruence, like you did something and said something, you perceive something, you judge something that was incorrect, and I'm going to keep having to either be silent about it to not offend you or to not have another drama that I have to deal with. Or I'm just not going to talk about it and I'm silent, or I'm gonna say something, we're gonna have a conflict, or I don't know, if I'm gonna have a conflict. Now I'm anxious, right? Like all of that most people have to deal with when they're like going to providers, or birth workers and they're not sure that they are cool, right? So be a person that can be cool in space. And if you're not, get it together and go into that space, and also have a good referral system. Like if you there are certain communities that you know, you're not. You have this conference in like for me, I haven't worked with all populations on the planet, but I've tried my best to expand my perspectives and like global perspectives and different types of family systems and different types of ways of seeing the world and spirituality but I have not sat in front of them worked and studied every single population, but I feel really confident and comfortable that if you put anybody in front of me, I could figure it out. Because I've learned to listen, I've learned to watch, I understand that I can make mistakes, and I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with being corrected. And I've had enough diverse perspectives that I don't believe in my own way, and enough to be like, malleable. And yet I'm challenged every day when I like come across a new thing and a new perspective that that, especially as I'm trying to continue to expand, so, but I'm not uncomfortable in a space where I don't know. But if you're that person, you are uncomfortable. You need to check that discomfort. Yeah, yeah, that's what I bet it's not about you haven't had interaction. It's about How comfortable are you? How much do you really feel like you can like just show up and some people don't like, I just love, you know, birth work. I just love the baby's coming. And I just love to support people who you know, really could have any support in the family system. And it doesn't matter to me what they look like and I'm just going to figure it out. And if you feel confident in that and you lead with the heart, a lot of times like those nuances people can figure out. Especially if they're hiring you, like they are willing to work with someone cross-culturally because they're hiring you, unless they've been assigned to you. And then that's something to consider how that feels for people as a birth worker, but they don't necessarily have a choice. And maybe they would have chosen someone more culturally connected to their family experience, and how you can show them that they can still trust you.   Sara: Sara: Yeah, thank you.   Dr. Sayida: That was a long answer.   Sara: No, I feel like I can't add anything.   Dr.Sayida: I didn’t even know if I was going to have a full answer to that question!   Sara: You have, you've got the answers. Thank you. I think that's really important. You talked about like putting yourself in the spaces that you're not comfortable in until you're comfortable, so that when you're speaking and interacting, you can be yourself authentic. And because sometimes you grow up in a demographic situation where you haven't been in those spaces, but that doesn't mean you're shot. You can interact with those people, right? Just get yourself in those spaces, find comfort, and then yeah, you're able to..   Dr. Sayida: And getting into spaces, to be clear, doesn't mean getting in and like doing a lot of talking right making it about yours. Right? It's like getting into a space and being an observer. Right, and like being asked to be in that space, so you will have to find someone that will take you on that journey. And a lot of times it makes them be like, boy, you're in somebody else's culture is like weird in most cases, maybe not. And some, but most of the time, you need to, like be invited into that space. But also, you must know that when you're there, it changes. Even though you're in the space, and you may have been in the space for 20 years or 50 years, you may have had family members that are from a cross cultural community. And again, there's still something that happens when there's another person in somebody else's cultural space, like it just changes. Sometimes the way that people interact, the language that they'll use, the relaxation, that they'll talk in their conversations. I'd really like thoughtfulness for like what the other person might experience of their… eventually, maybe you might be blessed to be so congruent to a cultural community that when you're there, they forget. That's a beautiful, powerful sacred space that you will never know. You got to… only they know that and you might think that like, Oh, it's not a big deal. I'm here. It's really like something that in the community, like people get to a space and they're like, man, I totally forgot so and so was white. Like, we just, you know, I never and then I'll be like, ah man…I'm sorry I said that I totally forgot you were here. And then it's like, that's actually like a positive thing, like if you're trying to learn to be able to immerse yourself in cultural space where people don't feel like it's about you, that they can have their space and you can just be in it. And I think everybody needs that sacred secrecy of their own space. But also, it's a blessing to be able to do the cross cultural thing because we must do it like in this world in America in all these spots. Yeah.   Sara: Thanks for the clarification, and that's important. My other question for you is: as a birth giver of color, when did you feel the most seen and heard?   Dr. Sayida: Okay. So when I was giving birth, I felt most seen and heard, actually was a unique situation. So my… I hemorrhage pretty terribly, but I didn't realize that because it was my first birth and I thought that, you know, bleeding was normal or something right and so I'm bleeding out there's towels with blood all over the place and they're like going in and I'm, like, comfortable but like all the while I'm like, “I got a baby. This is great.” I've been trying to be happy and so in such pain because of what they're doing to stop the bleeding and I'm like, I guess this is a normal part of like childbirth. So really going through that and losing one lose one and eventually they're like, No, she needs Pitocin. And I'm like, that was like I had like all these rules like my birth plan was tight. No. pitocin no epidural, no, you know, episiotomy, nothing. Like I want nothing but myself and my doula and just like the nature. So what I was done having a baby already and like, I didn't understand the use of Pitocin after that, so my doula got in my face. Like in front of the midwife who was like you really need this. And I'm like, I don't care anything about any of this. Like, I'm not getting Pitocin, like I don't do medication like. And she was like, you need, I understand, like, I know, I know, you’re natural, and I know like, I know everything I understand. You need this. You're bleeding too much. Like this is serious. Like, I need you to trust me, and I need you to let them give you medication.   And I was like, okay, that's fine.   And I was fighting. Like, I was not going down. That he was gonna believe that. I was like, No, I will not as when my ears are ringing and like, I'm like hearing like, just like I can't really see I just remember that whole state after birth, which I still… my memory, my memory of that is like, totally blissed out and in complete joy. But I was hemorrhaging. And that was what was physically happening to me. That made me that I interpreted as this beautiful blissed out like angelic space. I felt heard. And I feel so yeah, my doula heard me. But yet she could respond to like the need that I had and that, but she was like I felt her know that this is like against my will. And that she was also waiting for me to get permission. Like it wasn't like nobody can do anything to you like you, you have to make this choice and I if you trust me, you can make this one. I felt like that I felt hurt and I felt seen.   Sara: And it sounds like you had a pretty strong relationship of trust with your doula that she was able to come right into your personal space and communicate with you, like I know where you're coming from. And I want you to know that I want what's best for you. This is really what's best for you.   Dr. Sayida: And this isn’t a sham. This is like a medical thing that we say we don't do all this stuff like this is like the time we do it. And I think that is very important like for birth workers, to you have to establish that level of trust ahead. It's the only thing that you have for when the when it goes to hell is that even if it's like mom is like totally, you know, or birthing person is totally beside herself like there's no way that transition period like I just can't do this give me the epidural, I just there's no way, I can't, like I just can't you're just looking at it like you definitely can. But I know it feels like you can't but literally that is just a feeling that if you keep breathing and we keep doing this, you're the baby's gonna come out like now and that feeling of like I can't do this is like, is intense. I know that we all if we've done that with nothing with no medical, you know, medicine assistant, there is a point where you're like, I mean seriously, this is intense, like what the… like, Come on, baby like, I just like gotta be done this labor, right? But you can move through that. Like, if somebody can look you in your eye and be like, I know, it's terrible. And we're going to breathe. And we're gonna go through the next moment because you can do this, like the convincingness that I'm able to lend them that they gave me and me being a relationship with them seeing how powerful they are, like knowing that they can do it. We just like, it's a dance. And I think, you know, I never would say like, the power that a woman has in birth is going to come from the doula or the midwife or whoever is like the birth attendant, the family, but that trust that, like, I do respect you, when I see you, and I hear you, and I'm with you. And I believe in you, like, just, you know, we all need people to believe in us more like feeling weak, you know, and, and I mean, I just think that's like, it's golden. And it's just the relationship. It's literally like the relationship, it's the same thing a mother can do. You I've seen, you know, family members do it like, yeah. My so… my best friend in high school, she was having a baby. And I was there, and her mom was there. And you know, she just gets a point where she's getting like, all like dramatic and, you know, nobody was paying any attention to her because everybody had babies, not me. But everybody else had had babies who was in the room, her sister, mom. And they were just like, yeah, like, this is not that bad, like, whatever it is, whatever it is, it doesn't matter because the baby's gonna come out. It's like not necessary. So there's a lot of like, not really gouging, which I don't know, she seemed to be okay with it, but there was a moment where I was like, “Girl, you got this!” You know, I mean, it was like well, I mean yeah, it's good you know? And I remember just being like wow, that was so effective. Like, just like the confidence of someone who can tell you I see you in that… like, right you have it it's like okay, “It’s almost over!” I mean, I mean, it was like such a short labor like I don't even remember us being there for any amount of time. We walked in and the couple hours later start to finish yet baby. But that's like the 17-year-old body. It's just, yes pretty that's… it's always like everyone’s always worried about teen moms. Like all the teen moms I know had like really like shorter labor's and like moms like they have babies like in their 20s like me. And the accounts of them…not all but a number of them… It's like, in retrospect, like they have really like their bodies were like really ready and easy to have, baby. Yeah, that's a whole nother conversation.   Sara: Cool. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts and helping us consider just like… I like, how you're talking about seeing people. Like with your friend, when you felt seen. And in the … for the first question we talked about, how do you show this cultural competence and humility? It's just seeing people, right?   Dr. Sayida: Yeah.   Sara: And just Yeah, like, like actually seeing, recognizing we have common humanity and yeah, recognizing that, and then that the interaction just…   Dr. Sayida: Everything else follows… And the grace follows, like, if you make a mistake, if you say something, they feel the heart, and they're just like, “Oh, I actually this is how we do it.” And “this is actually how I, you know, call myself” and “this is actually like, you know, my partner, not my husband” and you know, right… The details are like, people are so forgiving when they feel like you care about them.   Sara: Yeah, yeah. Cool. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Sara is a fertility law lawyer based in Toronto, with clients throughout Canada and beyond. She is the founder of Fertility Law Canada and a partner at D2Law LLP where her practice is exclusively devoted to fertility law.  She approaches fertility law with the compassion, empathy and the respect it deserves. Sara regularly acts on behalf of intended parents, surrogate mothers, egg donors, sperm donors, embryo donors, and other people involved with reproductive technologies. She is also an adjunct professor of law at Osgoode Hall Law School where she teaches reproductive law. Sara is an advocate for all parties involved in third party reproductive technology- loves what she does and it shows! In today’s show, we talk about Fertility Law and the legal implications of assisted reproductive technologies. My Fertility Awareness Programs are designed to help you to master Fertility Awareness and take a deep dive into your cycles. Gain confidence charting your cycles, and gain deep insights into the connection between your health, your fertility, and your cycles. Click here for more information! Don’t forget to sign up for my FREE FAM 101 video series. Click here for access. Topics discussed in today's episode: At what point is it necessary to seek legal support? How does the law restrict the use of frozen embryos if a couple separates after the embryos were made? What are the laws around surrogacy? What is the difference between traditional surrogacy and gestational surrogacy? What are the laws regarding egg, embryo, and sperm donation? Preventing consanguinity (too many offspring from the same donor) Canadian law around sperm donation (and why it has led to a sperm shortage in Canada) Regulations about egg, sperm, and embryo donation around the world Open versus anonymous donation Connect with Sara: You can connect with Sara on her Website, on Facebook, via email, and on Twitter. Resources mentioned: Fertility Law Canada | Sara Cohen Oprah Winfrey Show - When Dad is a Sperm Donor Fertility Awareness 101 FREE Video Series Fertility Friday Programs Fertility Friday Facebook Group Related podcasts & blog posts: FFP 011 | Age-Related Fertility Decline | Using Reproductive Technologies | IVF IUI & IVM | Dr. Melanie McDowall FFP 109 | The Reality of Aging & Fertility | IVF & Assisted Reproductive Technology | The Future of Fertility Treatments | Dr. Marjorie Dixon FFP 196 | Egg Donation | Infertility | The World Egg Bank | Diana Thomas Fertility Awareness Episodes | Fertility Friday Join the community! Find us in the Fertility Friday Facebook Group Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast in Apple Podcasts! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by J-Gantic A Special Thank You to Our Show Sponsor: Fertility Friday | Fertility Awareness Programs This episode is sponsored by my Fertility Awareness Programs! Master Fertility Awareness and take a deep dive into your cycles and how they relate to your overall health! Click here for more information!