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In this episode, I talk with Jenessa Berg. She shares her thoughts about motherhood as a creative process, birth-related terms that can be taken multiple ways, and the circle of support during birth.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: On today's podcast, I will be talking with my friend Jenessa Berg. Jenessa is the mother to three children, a dancer and dance teacher, and an aspiring birth worker. Welcome, Jenessa to the Birth Words podcast.   Jenessa: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.   Sara: I'm really looking forward to hearing your perspective and sharing it with our listeners today. So, I was really interested when we were messaging before that you mentioned that you see motherhood as an artistic and creative process. So tell me more about that.   Jenessa: Yeah, okay. So I think it might help to tell a little bit about my, my story. I started going to BYU a few years ago as a freshman and I was in the nursing program. And I, I was thinking, you know, I really want to be a nurse and probably a midwife later, I was really interested in you know, science and, and I like math and I was like, this seems like you know, like a good thing for me and, but then as I started getting more into it, I just felt like that wasn't going to be the best use of my talents. And like I could maybe be a good nurse, but that wasn't what I was supposed to do. And I'm a praying person and I prayed a lot about it, and I ended up switching to dance, which is a very different thing and part of me was like embarrassed because I thought that people were going to think that like, I wasn't smart or something. But as I got more involved in the arts, I experienced a lot of healing and, and my health got a lot better than it had been. And it was an interesting shift going from, you know, being you know, in this medical world to this artistic world, and my health was so much better. So now I've had I've had three children and as I've had my kids, I've recognized that yes, it is. It is. There is a lot of it that is medical. There's there's a lot of math and science involved in how it all works. But it's also so much more than that. And so, I've realized that you can move beyond the statistics and the evidence and everything and it's, and it's your story, and you get to create it. It’s not just you know, you just have to live something out. Like it's, it's something that you get to be a very active part of, if you choose to be. And you can make it into something really beautiful. So I've started kind of thinking of, I guess over the past three births. I've come to think of the whole process is more of a, you know, this is my story that we're creating. And, and these are moments that I get to choose. You know, I don't get to choose everything but I get to choose. I get to choose quite a lot actually. And it is a creative process and trying to make your life and the life that you're bringing into the world, making it all a beautiful process. Sara: Love that. So how do you think that that perspective comes out when you're interacting with other parents in your community?   Jenessa: Yeah, so that's an interesting question. Um, I think that it's very common to kind of just stop at the, “you know, this is what happened to me. And these are the, these are the are, these are the facts or this is how it worked, or this is how it happened” instead of really taking it a step further and saying, but this is my story, and I choose how it plays out. And so, a lot of times when I have conversations with people, you know, you hear a story and sometimes a birth story is like, well, I went to the hospital and then I and then I had this intervention in this intervention and then my baby was born. And I guess I, I just want people to have stories that they're proud of. And so that's part of why I've become more passionate about birth is because, you know, my first birth I kind of did that, you know. I just kind of, well, you know, I'll just go in and, you know, do what all the experts are telling me here and we'll see how it goes. And it didn't go very well. And when I kind of took things into my own hands and said, “You know, this is my story, and I'm the hero of the story. I'm going to make this a good story.” Yeah, it's just so much better when I've when I've changed that. And so when I when I interact with other people now I, I guess I try to help other people to recognize that it's their story and that they get to choose how it is. And that it's not just, you know, you just have to live it out whatever happens to you.   Sara: Yeah, I love that. So we're kind of jumping all over the place. We have it just a short amount of time, but you had so many good ideas that I was like, Yes, we have to talk about all of them. But only for a few minutes each.   Jenessa: We’ll have to have another session where you just talk… can be a sleepover.   Sara: Sounds good. Okay, so when you reached out to me, you mentioned that a topic that interests you, is that different words or phrases have very different connotations for different people. So can you give some examples of that?   Jenessa: Yeah. So, um, since I originally kind of had this idea that I shared with you, I've been making a list, so I'm just going to kind of read through and just give a little blurb about them. So one thing is, when people say, “we're pregnant,” instead of “I'm pregnant.” Some people think that that's like, a really great way of looking at it like “yes, I am the husband. We're pregnant, and we're doing this together and working together,” and some people take a lot of offense. “Yeah, excuse me. You don't have heartburn. You don't have to, you know, you don't have hemorrhoids. You you're not dealing with this. You're not carrying this baby around all the time. Like, how dare you say that?” You know, “we're pregnant.”   Sara: But yeah, some people are totally like, this is a dual process. And that's how I'm going to express it. So that's very…   Jenessa: Right. And for some people, I think that's a good thing for them.   Sara: Yeah. It's good to know where you fit in.   Jenessa: Yeah.   Sara: And where your partner fits in, so that you’re not…   Jenessa: Definitely. So the next one here, and this is one that you've talked about before, especially with Rebecca Decker, from Evidence Based Birth: delivery or deliver in birth. Um, some people just don't even think of that as a word that could be offensive. And some people are really upset by it because they think my baby is delivered from me like, right? No, my baby is like, it's not taken from me to free me of it or you know, so there's that one. Sometimes there's just words that are just…it's like they started out meaning one thing and then just got confused. So the word postpartum? It means the time period after birth, but a lot of people use it to refer to postpartum depression, right? Which can make it confusing. Yeah, like after I had my baby a few months ago, um, I had a friend and she was like, “Hey, how are you doing?” And I was like, “Oh, you know, just the, you know, postpartum is crazy.” And she was like, “Oh my gosh, like, let me come and like, help you out. Like I had postpartum depression too.” And like she… And I was like, you know, like, I'm, I'm.. I appreciate your concern and help but that's not what I was saying.   Sara: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think that it means that we have an increased awareness of it. But then we have this conflation of this term that just means like, yeah, time after baby's born and I’m adjusting to real life as a mother.   Jenessa: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So, Oh, here's a here's a phrase that yo some can be very comforting and to some just makes you very angry. And it's, “there's no trophy.”   Sara: Oh!   Jenessa: And I think most people have feelings about that   Sara: Right! Some people probably feel like, “Oh, you're right, that means I can do it my way. This is my story it doesn't matter, there's no prize!”   Jenessa: Exactly, right, like, I don’t have to worry about other people. And other people are like, “you think that I did that for a trophy? Like how shallow do you think I am? You know, like that's usually that's a—you know—phrase it's usually used in like, whether someone got an epidural or not. And, like of course it's not about a trophy, but some people can get… some people take great comfort from that phrase and other people, it just kind of lights a fire underneath them.. Another one very similar to that is, “you don't have to be a hero.”   Sara: MmmHmm.   Jenessa: Um, this one I thought was interesting. I heard a woman recently who had had a stillborn baby and she was really upset when people used the term “angel baby” and talking about her “angel baby” because she doesn't believe in God. And she doesn't have that belief. And she felt like people were always like giving her false hope. Like, no, like,   Sara: Not validating her grief.   Jenessa: Yeah, right. Exactly. Not validating her grief. Another phrase is, “leave it to the experts.” usually referring to medical professionals.   Just the phrase, or the word “natural.”   Sara: Yeah. That one can be so controversial.   Jenessa: Yeah. And it's funny because like, you know, they're just words, but we attach these meanings to them. And when we come at them from different directions, they can be hurtful or they can be… anyway, they can just have such different meanings.   Sara: You have such a good list. Can I like…?   Jenessa: Yeah, I'll send it to.   Sara: And maybe piggyback off of it for future episodes?   Jenessa: Yeah, totally. Totally.   Sara: You’ve got such a good list.   Jenessa: Yeah, I got another one. And this one, I also got from listening to this podcast—such a good podcast—when The VBAC Link was on here, and they talked about belly births, and how, you know, some women like that phrase and like, “Oh, yeah, like my cesarean birth was also a birth” and some people feel like “no, my cesearean birth was not a birth. That was something that I was robbed of.”   Sara: Right.   Jenessa: So yeah, it's interesting, like you wanna you just want to validate people, but sometimes the words that we use, they actually get some harm.   Sara: Yeah, because they come… and the words that I use or that you use They’re symbols that represent all of our lived experience relating to that concept, right? And like for you, and for me, we have totally different lived experiences. A lot of similarities, a lot of differences… and one little word, just a few letters packaged together can mean so much. Something so different to me than it does to you, than somebody in another state, another country, especially as we get into a wider circle.   Jenessa: Definitely. A couple more. There's when people say “easy way out.” And this is another one that’s sometimes with the cesarean section where people will say like, “No, that wasn't the easy way out, you know, like, how dare you say that?” And the interesting thing that I have noticed without phrases that I usually hear it in people who haven't given birth before, and they usually say it.. and it's just because they just don't know they just think “oh, like, I've heard that labor is terrible. So a cesarean section seems like the easy way out, so she must have chosen the easy way out.” You've had a C-section.   Sara: No, it’s not the easy way out! I had labor and a c-section, so…   Jenessa: Yeah, but just don't ever, I think pretty much don't ever tell a woman that she took the easy way ever.   Sara: Yeah. Or any person ever.   Jenessa: The easy way… I had I have an aunt who adopted three children. And someone told her once, “Oh, you went…you took it the easy way.” Because, you know, she didn't have pregnancy or labor, but she was like, okay, like all the years of therapy, like the years of waiting the years of infertility, all of the you know, like, what about the time where I thought that I was going to have a baby and I went and I met him and then his birth mother decided to keep him and you know, like that all this heartbreak years and years of heartbreak? Like, no, that was not the easy way. Ah, anyway, so that was really hurtful to her. And yeah, so I don't know. I don't know that that phrase is really helpful to anyone   Sara: It’s not a two-way think, it’s just a “Don't say that!”   Jenessa: But I think that that it is good to recognize though that a lot of people don't realize that got that that phrase can be so upsetting.     Sara: Wow. Okay. You've given me lots of things to think about over the coming weeks and months. I'm excited. Um, another topic… was that positions of authority in the birth experience. That's important to you. So what's your perspective about who is or who are the authority figures in birth and what responsibilities does an authority figure have?   Jenessa: Perfect. Okay, so um, I think that our society's general view of looking at birth and authority figures is kind of a hierarchy. And you have doctors up at the top, and then midwives because like, they're still pretty smart, but they're not doctors. And then underneath that, you have nurses. And then underneath that you have doulas and then at the bottom is mothers. And I heard someone say something recently about like if we're going to make any change in our maternity care, then it's got to start from the bottom—like you mothers—and I was like you've got to you've…you're at the bottom? …. Like I understood the point, but I was kind of bothered by that because, like—wait, mothers are at the bottom of the maternity care system?   Sara: Right, I have life inside of my body!   Jenessa: There would be no maternity care system without the mothers! Anyway. So like, I think that we need to stop with the whole hierarchy thing. And I'm not saying that we should switch it either. I'm not saying like mothers at the top and everybody else just bow to them. Because it's not quite that either. So I think like if… I'm a really visual person, so like… the way I like to think about it is more like the mother is the center. Everybody else… we're all on the same standing. Right? We're all people, we're all humans, we're all important. And birth professionals certainly have, you know, they're doing great work and they are important. It's not like you know, like they don't matter all. But the mother is in the center because she's the one that is bringing the life into the world and everyone else is surrounding her. It's a circle. A circle of support…   Sara   Do you want to like draw…? I think we can all probably imagine a circle. I love that visual. That's really powerful.   Jenessa: Yeah, I thought of that visual. Mostly… Well, as I was thinking about this, like, I just had this visual from when I was watching, when I was recently watching the video of my most recent birth, yeah. And Sara was my doula. You were my doula for that. And I also had, like, my mom was there and, and I had my midwife, my husband, and right at the part where it was just the very most difficult and I was like, Yeah, “oh, man, like, why am I doing this? Can I really do this? I don't think I can do this!” when I was in that moment. I was surrounded.   Sara: That’s beautiful   Jenessa: There were literally people you know, like there was someone holding each hand, there was someone behind me doing counter pressure. My midwife was there getting ready to catch the baby… like it was it was literally…and someone else was… I had like the nurse was, you know, checking for the fetal heart rate, and it was just really, like that felt right, you know, to be in the center of a circle.   Sara: It was beautiful to be on the outside of the circle too supporting you. Your birth was so beautiful. I love that too. Because so your videographer from that birth, Sarah Asay, also has a website and social media platform called Birth Circle. And that is the metaphor that she uses so much. And I've been doing some business training with her. She talks so much about we don't…this hierarchy is all wrong in…   Jenessa: It's just silly.   Sara: Yeah. Not just in the birth space. But if we think about businesses working that way, that's just not how we support one another. And I love the circle that she's creating of support for women and that she so beautifully took a video of so that you could see that visual. That's… Yes. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I love all of this. Thanks so much for being on the podcast today. If you had to summarize your feelings about birth, pregnancy, postpartum in one… and I don't mean depression, just the postpartum experience… In one word, what word would you choose?   Jenessa: Birth is sacred.   Sara: I love that. I really think that's beautiful. I agree. Thank you.   Jenessa: Thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, I continue the conversation from previous episodes about the language surrounding infertility. Natasha Marchand, co-founder of Bebo Mia, discusses the unique situations of would-be expectant parents facing infertility, and what helpful and non-helpful language looks like.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara Pixton: Welcome to today's episode. Before we jump in, I just want to say if you have listened to the podcast before and you are loving it, please leave a review on your podcast app, so more people can find out about Birth Words and be touched by the things that we're talking about here. And now for today's episode. Natasha has been working with women to support their wellness goals for over a decade. She is a doula trainer, a hypnotherapist, prenatal fitness and yoga instructor, and a fertility specialist. As the co-founder of Bebo Mia and co-owner of Baby and Me Fitness, she loves helping women feel stronger and more confident in their lives, whether that is in their birth business, or as they move fertility all the way to parenting. She is also the proud mother of seven-year-old Sadie, conceived with ART after a four-year struggle, and recently gave birth to her second daughter, Margo. Welcome Natasha, to the Birth Words podcast.   Natasha Marchand: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.   Sara: I'm so excited to talk with you and for our listeners to gain your perspective. Do you want to give just a quick introduction of yourself and your business and what you're doing here on the podcast?   Natasha: Sure. Well, my name is Natasha, like you said. I struggled myself with infertility for four years before having my first daughter and then six years later, had my second daughter so there's quite a bit of a gap. And so there was many years where I struggled with infertility, but my background is in yoga and hypnotherapy, and obviously I'm a birth doula and of course to a trainer as well. So I use a lot of that to create programming for people who are struggling with infertility, because I felt like it was not only a professional thing for me but also really personal. And Bebo Mia itself as a doula training organization, or a training organization that works with birth workers who want to become doulas, for example, or perhaps work in the world of infertility or fertility as a fertility doula, which is something that's new and happening right now as awareness for infertility moves forward.   Sara: I love that. And one of the reasons I reached out to you specifically is because I saw that fertility doula training program on your website, and that really struck me. Like you said, it's not something that I'm really familiar with. I don't know any fertility doulas personally, but having had a small infertility journey of my own—Wow, I wish I had a doula there to guide me through it! Because It can be so difficult to navigate. So I'm so glad you have that going.   Natasha: Yeah, I didn’t have a fertility doula myself either. But because I was a doula at the time—I was a doula for many years before I had children of my own—so when I learned that this was going to be a struggle for me when I was figuring that out, I just started applying my work as a doula into my own life. And then recognizing that there were so many other people out there who didn't have support, who were doing this on their own or in silence, or in shame even. And so I started that to apply that into group work and into other people until eventually it just became my work as a fertility doula.   Sara: I love it. That's awesome. I am so excited to pick your brain a little bit here today. So I have some questions for you. The first one is: What unique challenges do would-be expectant parents meet when they first come face to face with fertility struggles?   Natasaha: I, you know, I can speak to my own experience and I can also speak to the experience of other people that I've witnessed. But the biggest thing is that realization that, you know, the idea of having children goes from that, like, when will I have children? to IF I'll have children. That's such a shift in everybody's mind frame. You know, you kind of grow up thinking okay, I'll do what everyone tells me I have to do you know, I'll go to college, I'll meet somebody, we’ll have a family, we’ll buy a house… all of those things will happen. And then suddenly, your expectations aren't meeting reality anymore, and that just kind of like flips everything on its side. Especially if you're someone like me who's like, I'm a planner. Like, I was like, yep, I turned 30, I'll have my kids, I’ll do… You know? I had it all planned out. And then suddenly it's like, will I even have kids? And if I don't—Who am I? Yeah, you know?   Sara: Yeah. And this episode I wanted to build on Episode number seven. I talked about my infertility journey and some research that I've come across. That goes a lot along with what you're saying of this idea of a reproductive story, that some people have it more consciously. Some people, it's more subconscious, but it totally disrupts that when you're faced with like, not when but if, and just it's a really challenging journey.   Natasha: Yeah. And it's, it really is what is this thing about me? You know, because like when you talk about language and you talk about infertility, like there's still really is this… It's not even unspoken, it's this value that's placed on women, in particular, to have children. Like that's part of our value. Like who are we, if we can’t have children. And now that that conversation is changing, but there still is these words that are used for people who don't have children, you know, like we hear it all the time. Like you're selfish or you'll change your mind, or you're too self-absorbed, or like all of this language that goes around, you know, choosing to not have children. Yeah.   Sara: Especially difficult when…   Natasha: There’s so much language around that. Yeah, like, Is there something I did wrong? Am I being punished? there's something wrong with me. So like, you can't really, you can't win, right? Because our value is so intertwined as women in particular, to having children. And that’s something we learn so early on, as young girls.   Sara: Yeah, all of this discourse that just surrounds us as we go. And then facing like, Oh, is that… Is that what I want for myself? Is that possible? with the infertility struggle, right? And you said, Am I doing something wrong? And I mentioned to you and now to our listeners that this episode is also building on a previous episode with Margaret Quinlan, who's a professor of Communications, who wrote… You're Doing it Wrong is the name of her book, because that's what people feel a lot from just the common rhetoric around pregnancy and motherhood and fertility. And that's a really, really difficult thing to be told either explicitly or implicitly and a really difficult thing to feel.   Natasha: Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are so many people out there who think that by giving advice, they're trying to help you, or they are helping you, because they do think that there’s something you're doing wrong, you know? Are you putting your legs up on the wall for 30 minutes after you have intercourse? No, Aunt Edna, I'm not. Like what? Like, you know, there's just so much. As soon as you say… as soon as you're brave enough to say that this is something you're struggling with, that's when you get all of this information that is not helping you at all. Really, it is just telling you what you said you're doing it wrong. And… these days. Are you relaxed enough? Are you going on vacation? Are you taking time for yourself? All of that is just blaming.   Sara: And that's so difficult when you said like, it's so vulnerable to open up and say, Hey, this is something that I'm struggling with, and then to be hit with all of that does not honor the vulnerability, right?   Natasha: That's right. And I if, if there was anything I wish I could do to change the language in this space, or to change the culture, in this space is to, to really have people understand how to best support somebody going through infertility. And like to explain that, quite often this unsolicited advice is not really welcome. You know, and even as, as birth professionals like we are, this can be a hard line for us because we want to believe in hope and to give people hope. And we can try it on this fine line where it's like, you know, if you do this, then you'll get pregnant, the same way often birth professionals can make that mistake of saying, if you have a birth plan, and if you give birth with this health care provider, and if you give birth at home or whatever, you know, your plan is, then you'll have the birth that you want. But really, that's, you know, we don't want to give people false hope, with infertility. You can do all of this thing, you can do everything. You can put your legs on the wall, you can go on vacation, you can do IVF. And still at the end of the day, not have a baby. Right? So we have to be really careful and mindful of our language and not offer this hope. Or it's like, oh, well, if you just did this, this would happen. Yeah.   Sara: So what can we do? We're wanting to support people struggling with infertility. We know a lot of the things we shouldn't say. We know why… we've talked about why it matters, the way that we talk. You can add more thoughts about that if you want, but what do we do? What do we say what is helpful?   Natasha: You know, I think being there for somebody and telling somebody that you're there for them is the most important thing we can do. Allowing them to be seen by you and allowing them the space to be vulnerable and, and validating the pain that they're going through is more important than anything else. Because that's what's not happening for them right now is they're saying that they're struggling, they're going through infertility. And what is coming back at them is usually something in between ‘you're doing it wrong’ or ‘it's really not that bad.’ I have a friend who has been struggling for four years or, you know, it's hovering somewhere in between that there. So what we need to do as healthcare practitioners is be okay with sitting in this uncomfortable space. Of this is just—can I swear?—this is just shitty. And that's what it is. And I am here to witness that with you and allow you to say how shitty this is to me.   Sara: And friends and family. Oh, sorry, I jumped in before you were done. And you said, like as professionals, but also like as friends and family, too, we've got a mixed listenership on this podcast. And I think that that applies to both. Would you agree?   Natasha: Absolutely agree. It applies. I agree. Yeah, that's right. There needs to be a shift in the way that we treat people going through infertility, because we don't talk the same way with people who have just been injured. You know? We don't talk to the same way who maybe just had a cancer diagnosis. We… this is a very special way that we talked to people who are going through infertility: we try to minimize it, or we try to be helpful, but we say the wrong things. Or we… there's not a recognition of how hard this really is. You know, just the little things that which I've heard, I'm sure you've heard before is like, once you realize it's going to be a struggle for you to have children, if that's something you truly desire to do, even things like getting a baby shower invitation in the mail is really hard. It can put you on the ground for, you know, days or weeks. And a lot of people don't understand that. They don't understand why you wouldn't show up. There really is not the validation around how painful this really is, how it leads to depression, how the stress rates are high for people who are going through infertility as people who are going through cancer treatments. There's not a recognition around that. It really is like, you know, ‘it will happen when it happens,’ or you know, ‘maybe it's not your time.’ There's such a minimization of the struggle that somebody is going through. Anyway, I get it. You can't really understand it until you've gone through it. But I'd love to see the culture change.   Sara: Yeah, me too. I think those are really powerful thoughts. And I think I'm… Once you have gone through it, too, there's also this temptation to like, use it as your chance to be like, “Oh, I know, it's hard because let me tell you about how hard it was for me,” which is also not a helpful response. Right? And if we're truly validating someone else's grief, we're not in platforming to, like, jump into our own, right?   Natasha: Yes. As professionals, I find that's a hard line to walk regardless of if you're a fertility doula or a birth doula, right, because our own experiences shape what we think is good, you know, what, what we think are good decisions. And, and that's just human nature, but our job is to come at things in an unbiased way. And so when we're working with infertility, you know, as a professional, we're not really able to say, you know, well for me, this works and so it should work for you. It really still…we have to really come back to being like, here's all the information, what decision do you want to make? And also support you through that?   Sara: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. Another question for you. So how can those dealing with infertility harness the power of our words to help them in their journey?   Natasha: One of the big things that I do in my work as a fertility doula is, is to look at the language we're using with ourselves now, and so for many of us, well for me, when I first began this journey of infertility, it was really like I was really down on myself, I really questioned my lifestyle, I really question things I had done in my past, I had a lot of negative self-talk. And, and I knew better because this is what I do for a living. And so I had to work really hard to fix that. And I'm not trying to say that everything we have to say is positive. And when it comes to fertility, like I said, I don't want to be giving false hope. I don't want to give people you know, thoughts…try to put thoughts in people's heads that are like, ‘I will for sure have a baby’ or, you know, ‘close your eyes and imagine your baby.’ That can be so hard and triggering for somebody who's going through infertility. So let's work on our thought process in not in a way that's like positive or nothing. But in a way that's like, how can we reframe this so it feels healthier in our in our bodies? So we're not hurting ourselves and causing ourselves harm as we go through this. Like we're not making it worse. And so what we do a lot of the times is come up with balanced statements. So statements that feel true, or can stop that negative cycle that causes us like a downward spiral each day, you know, like when you wake up your ‘I'll never have a kid’ and, you know, ‘why? Why would I get up off the floor right now?’ Like all those…that kind of language that spirals and changes your actions throughout the day? Like how can we create a kinder and more gentle thing that you can say in the morning? You know, so, rather than saying, ‘I'll never have children,’ we don't go right to positive and say, ‘I will have children’ and wake up and expect that that's going to be the outcome. But how can we say, ‘you know what, today is the day that I'm going to practice my breathing techniques,’ or work a little bit more on myself, or you know, spend the day, you know, whatever it is. I really do sit down and spend a lot of time with my clients to figure out what wording would work best for them to be gentler to themselves, so the day doesn't feel as hard. Yeah, you know, what, what can you be doing each and every day to make this journey better? And how can we implant that language into our subconscious rather than what was fed to us?   Sara: I love all of your thoughts about that. And because I feel similarly with just my goal with this podcast and the other work that I do with Birth Words, the goal is not to be like, only positive talk, because sometimes there's some really negative stuff that already exists that you have to work through. But I like how you said, Let's reframe this, so it feels healthy in your body. And I think that reframing is critical.   Natasha: Yeah. And it's really like when I sit with my clients, and I do this work, there are questions that I asked, you know, if your negative self-thought is ‘I'll never have children, I'll never have children.’ You say that over and over again in your head. Okay, so, just what about that statement is true? You know, have you been told that you'll never have children? Are all paths towards having children closed to you? What are you willing to do to have children? You know, like really start dissecting where that negative thought comes from. Who told you that if you never have children, you're not a good woman, you know, or good person? You know, where are these thoughts coming from so that we can look at it and be like, Oh, that statement’s not really true. What is true is that I'm, I'm trying this avenue right now, and I'm giving it my best shot. And if this doesn't work, I'm willing to try another avenue. That sounds better, right?   Sara: And you sound so much more like an agent, making choices, being thoughtful about, ‘these are my options and this is the path that I can pursue,’ instead of being like this passive recipient of your fate, right?   Natasha: That's right. That's right. And putting some control into that because there is obviously the sense of a loss of control. Right? When you have when you have a plan and that plan is not happening for you.   Sara: K, I love, I so appreciate our conversation. I'm going to wrap it up with two quick questions here. The first one is, if you had to describe in one word, your feelings or beliefs about the fertility journey, what one word would you choose?   Natasha: The fertility journey or mine?   Sara: However you want to interpret it, and if you need to throw out a few we can, we can work with that.   Natasha: I wouldn't label it as… you know, it did change. But the beginning when I was just hearing about this and learning what a struggle it was going to be for me, I would have called it suffering.   Sara: Okay. And I love the thoughts that you've shared to help, again reframe that, to make it feel less like suffering, but also the earlier thoughts you shared about having other people recognize, this feels like intense suffering. I think that's, that's really fitting.   Natasha: Yeah. And it really was, I was gonna say it really was the, the getting out of that thought process and say, What can I do with this information now that I have it? How can I pull parts of my life to make a change to make this better? I feel very fortunate that I was already kind of in this birth world when I encountered this, because I was able to pull things together and create out of it, which really lifted me out of that suffering place. But not only that, it led me to find other people who were going through it. So I could say I'm suffering and they could say back to me, I'm suffering too. And that's still so much. Just being able to create that in my world was so important.   Sara: Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom. How can we connect with you? Follow you personally or Bebo Mia, or whatever you want to throw out there.   Natasha: Sure, you can visit us at bebomia.com. We also have a blog post on this that comes with like a really large ebook just on how we can best support our clients who are going through infertility or who are now pregnant after infertility. So you can go to bebomia.com/birthwords. And that will be up for anybody who ever wants to see it. And if anybody ever wanted to join any of our programs, we have a BIRTHWORDS code for 15% off anything you'd ever want to join us with and become part of our community.   Sara: Love it. Thank you so much for your generosity and go head over to their website. Check it out. They have so many resources for birth professionals and really are doing something dynamic and new with the way that they're approaching all of it, so go check it out. It's worth it.   Natasha: Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to be on the podcast.   Sara: It was so great to have you. Thanks so much, Natasha.   Natasha: Thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Secrets of Great Second MealsBy Sara Dickerman Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors. Sara: Hi, I'm Sara Dickerman and this is my latest cookbook, "Secrets of Great Second Meals". Suzy Chase: The last time we chatted was about the "Bon Appetit: Food Lover's Cleanse" cookbook that you wrote. And you even had lunch suggestions based on leftovers from the night before. So you've been a leftover supporter for years now. Talk a little bit about that.Sara: Well yes, the Bon Appetit plans, because there were menus for two weeks of healthy eating, I started thinking about how to make it a little more reasonable, since it was based on home cooking. And even though we all love to cook at home, some days it's just too busy and just really trying to cook every meal at home would be complicated. So I thought about using beautiful leftovers and then reframing them in a way that made them feel new and fresh. So in the case of the Bon Appetit book, it was thinking about a lot of those proteins in salad form, in delicious, crunchy salads. All sorts of textures and all sorts of flavors. And it just reminded me how much I love that part of cooking, the cyclical nature of cooking where one meal trails into the next. I think it's a really beautiful aspect of cooking that allows you to treat your ingredients with the most respect. Of course it allows you to save money because you're not wasting as much food. But there's just something very natural about letting one meal inform the next.Suzy Chase: You take uncommon delight in putting together memorable meals out of the morsels in your fridge. And it definitely comes through in this cookbook. Can you give us a brief history of the L word?Sara: Sure. Leftovers, as such, didn't really have an existence until people had refrigerators, in the sense of a problem of having too much food left around the house. In the past, people probably would've eaten the stew the next morning just to use it up. But when refrigerators started being popular in American culture, first, in the late 19th century, it was ice-based refrigerators and then electric refrigerators, this idea that you have this food that was around and you didn't quite finish it and you could keep it for a while became an issue. And so around that era, at the beginning of the 20th century, cookbooks started to come out dealing with this new thing called leftovers. At the same time, women were encouraged to be very thrifty. This was the heart of the home economics movement in America. So housewives were supposed to use their skills and ingenuity to keep the household finances in good shape and to be creative and use up every little scrap of food in the house. That grew through the beginning of the 20th century. And crowning achievements in the mid-century were like Jello molds with every kind of knickknack in them. And of course the era of casseroles with tinned soup and, yet last, leftover turkey in the casseroles. And of course, naturally, that kind of cooking wore down people's palates and it lost glamour as we moved into the second half of the 20th century. And people got very interesting in farmer's market and fresh foods and really connecting with foods and experimenting with foods from around the world. And that homey cooking I think felt less of the moment at that point. What has happened recently? Well we're all becoming much more aware of the impact of our eating on the environment. So people are thinking a lot about food wastage, which wastes not just our money, our household money, but wastes water and it's a larger carbon footprint. So there is an activist movement that I'd say really got traction in England first and then came here. And you'll see people like Dan Barber really encouraging chef and home cooks alike to think about how much food gets wasted in our environment. There's an estimate that it's about 40% of food gets wasted in the United States. So it's a huge amount. And so I just combined that concern in my book with also the pleasure of creativity. And part of the joy of cooking in the kitchen can be, "Oh, I'm wasting a little bit less food but I'm also having fun thinking about this new environment for whatever I have around the refrigerator." It can make it really fun and a pleasing part of your cooking life.Suzy Chase: In terms of food waste, we're all thinking about food waste these days but no one really talks about this way of thinking and cooking and how it's really budget friendly too. And you mention that in the cookbook. Sara: It is. You need to know what you'll use. And if you can cook a few dishes that you know you'll enjoy and, if you have a family, your family will enjoy, and kind of cook a little more at the beginning of the week. Maybe you cook it kind of simply. Then you can reframe it and it takes a little less time the second time around because you've already cooked whatever that main ingredient is. And then it's also you're conscientiously thinking about different ways to frame your food, and so you have more fun and you're more likely to maybe eat at home instead of ordering takeout. And that also saves money of course. Suzy Chase: It's so expensive. Especially in New York City, you get all these extra charges, the delivery changes. So a family of three, you can easily rack up a $50 bill just getting Chinese food. It's crazy.Sara: Right. I never want to sound scoldy. I get bored very easily. I'm not the kind of person who can eat exactly the same meal days after days in a row. So that's where the fun and the creativity and the transformation comes to play, so that that simple roast chicken you had one day might become a chicken salad like on the cover of the book that has a wonderful ginger soy dressing. Or it might become enchiladas or it might become a Greek style lemon soup. It could go in any of those directions. And that allows for a little bit of spontaneity even if you're trying to be thoughtful.Suzy Chase: You write about the eureka moment. Talk about that. Sara: Oh, it's just, like I said, I think there's this pleasure that cooks take, and maybe not all cooks, but that when you figure out how a few things can fit together and improve each other. And so I think about that when I'm meditating on this little bit of extra pork shoulder I have around and I realize that I could add a little more flavor to the pork shoulder, like adding some annatto and it will taste a little bit like Cochinita Pibil. It won't be a classically prepared Cochinita Pibil but it'll have some of that lovely lemony annatto flavor, and that that could be reframed into tacos after I'd had it maybe in more Italian version of it the night before. And then you just start thinking, "Oh, and then I have that extra half of that onion that's in the fridge." And then I'll pickle that. And then, look, suddenly you have this new meal. And the anticipation of how that meal will come together is what I think of as the eureka moment. Soup is almost always an options. And there's a whole chapter in the book on soups. And that's often the way that you can figure out how to put all those puzzle pieces together.Suzy Chase: So I want to chat about a question you brought up in the cookbook which was if we revered these ingredients that were painstakingly grown in organic fields and handcrafted by food artisans, why do we not also appreciate them after the first meal? And I was wonder why don't we? We're so quick to throw it away.Sara: Yeah, I think we are. Well I think there's a few different camps I would say for sure. There are people who grew up and they just never liked leftovers. And they're a tougher nut to crack. But I think the key is reframing things and making things feel a little new and fresh. And then there's those of us who are more like me probably who just have good intentions and don't get around to it. And it's that delayed virtue thing that I think we all engage in a lot in our modern world. But it's true, I do think that there's a level of respect for ingredients that should extend beyond the farmer's market and extend into our daily lives. And it's always going to look glorious uncooked at the farmer's market. But what happens when it's in your refrigerator or in your freezer? And how can you really bring back that enthusiasm you had for the same thing before it was cooked and before you tried it? And I always say I'm easily bored. So I think of ways of layering in flavors and layering in textures. So even if I'm not preparing one of these recipes from start to finish, I have great condiments in my refrigerator door like a harissa or a gochujang, which are two different chili-based sauces. gochujang, from Korea, which has the miso-y fermented bean taste. And then harissa which has lovely warm spices like cumin and caraway in it. So those are things I would anoint this second-day food with to just bring in that vibrancy. Or maybe I'll grate lemon zest over top of something or add a dollop of yogurt to add a freshness. So always thinking about ways that you can, even very simple ways that you can add another layer of vibrancy to food after it's been in the refrigerator. Of course it can get a little less sharp tasting once it's been sitting in the refrigerator for a little while. So you need to think about ways of reviving food, but really taking pleasure in it.Suzy Chase: Give us some general rules on when to throw things out, like fish and seafood, vinaigrettes, moldy cheese or cooked meats.Sara: Okay, that sounds good. Well with fish and seafood, no one wants old, cooked seafood around. It just really spoils quickly. So I tend to use that the next day. Actually I love having leftover salmon, especially if it's been a little smoked, like if I did it on the barbecue. But I do tend to use it the next day. The one exception might be something like an escabeche, if you've made a vinegar-based marinade, you probably can get away with another day or two. But basically that's a quick thing. Just think of a clever thing to do the next day maybe for brunch. You could make strata and throw in some of the leftover barbecue in that case. With cooked meats, I think they generally can stick around for three days or so. The other thing I would say though is, because we sometimes don't get around to the leftovers we mean to, if it's something saucy or stewy I often just try to throw it in the freezer the next day rather than keep it around if I don't think I might get through it. And the freezer is always a good option for something that's got a lot of liquid in it. It's not such a good option for something that's like a dry roast, like if you just did a pork tenderloin in the pan. That's something you'd want to use from the refrigerator and not freeze. Oh, and then you asked me, the last question was cheeses. Now there's a few recipes in this book that I really love because they're custom made for cleaning out the cheese drawer. And I don't know about you but I have a tendency to get excited about cheeses. And when we eat through two-thirds of it, and then there's this funny little nubbin of cheese that doesn't look quite as pretty anymore.Suzy Chase: Yeah. Exactly.Sara: So all cheese melts together for the most part. And so there's some wonderful recipes. One of my all-time, classic, favorite things to make are gougeres, which are those wonderful cheese puffs. And you can mix those extra cheeses you have around the cheese drawer in a gougeres, and they're just so extraordinarily delicious. The other fun thing is that gougeres I've found bake up best for me if I've actually made the dough, piped them onto the pan and then freeze that dough. I find they bake better from the freezer. So not only am I saving this extra cheese that I've had around the refrigerator, but then I have them in the freezer. And if guests come over and I want a nice little appetizer, it's super easy to just pop into the oven for 20 minutes and you have these wonderful, crisp, fragrant, hot gougeres to serve your friend.Suzy Chase: This is funny. One time I asked Dorie Greenspan what she would offer me if I came to her house, and she said gougeres. I said, "I'll be over in 15 minutes. It's done."Sara: It's just they're so pleasing. Kids love them, adults love them. And very simple. If you want to get fancy, you can cut them in half and put [inaudible 00:13:26] as a little sandwich. But you can also just serve a big pile of them, and next time you turn around they'll be gone. Suzy Chase: So the other night I made your recipe for the sesame roasted winter vegetable party on page 47. It's such a unique way to roast vegetables. I always do the regular olive oil and salt and pepper. But yours mixes together olive oil, tahini, garlic, sea salt and sesame seeds. Describe this dish.Sara: Okay. Well, like you, I often just do the olive oil things. But sometimes I want a little more substance to a roasted vegetable and just a little more flavor. And so I love, when I'm working with sesame, to hit it in more than one way the sesame. So there's the tahini, there's the sesame seeds which toast up in the oven and get crunchy. And then the idea is you make just a big batch of those roasted vegetables. And you might them use them in a salad and just enjoy them throughout the week that way. You can puree them together and make a wonderful soup. But on their own they're also delicious. And that extra sesame flavor just gives them a little richness and a little depth.Suzy Chase: I'm so excited to have this recipe now because I'm so sick of the regular olive oil. It zipped up my vegetables. It was really delicious.Sara: It is fun. Actually roasted vegetables are great that way. There's a couple of other methods that I'll share, that aren't in the book, that I love to do. Sometimes it's really great to cook them simply but then hit them when they're just coming out of the oven with some fresh grated garlic and maybe a little parsley and maybe a little Parmesan. In that case, the hot vegetables hitting the garlic just really adds this big burst of aroma. And that's another fun way to have a little more fun with your roasted vegetables. Suzy Chase: That's a good tip. So here is a brilliant tip that was a light bulb moment for me in this cookbook. Hang a list of what's in your fridge on the front of the fridge. It seems so simple yet so effective. Sara: And one, I will tell you, that I go through phases with because I am a human too. Sometimes I'm better organized than others. But it is, it's true. If you know you have those things that are in the fridge, that's a restaurant, organizational tip. Knowing the inventory of your fridge is really helpful, so if you write it down or even if you just do a visual check. And also, of course, another restaurant tip that's so important is just to make sure to label what you put in the fridge. And again, it's not like I'm perfect with this. But I always regret not labeling things because something gets shoved to the back and then you don't see it. And then it's a week later and you're like, "Oh no, this was that lovely lamb stew."Suzy Chase: I know.Sara: "I intended to do something with it."Suzy Chase: It's the most defeating moment. You're like, "Oh, rest in peace lamb stew."Sara: Exactly. You know what I like to do? And there's many different ways to label. I have a roll of bright yellow masking tape and a sharpie hanging from my kitchen shelf, just like a lot of restaurants do. And I just try my best, even if I had a glass of wine at dinner, when I throw things in the fridge to slap that label just to say what it is. And then it really makes a big different. Suzy Chase: For my segment called My Last Meal, what would you have for your last supper?Sara: Oh, that's such a good one. It would be ... I feel like I just would want a giant bowl of spaghetti bolognese. I just love a meaty spaghetti sauce, I think it's just a childhood memory, with a lot of delicious cheese nearby. And a crisp, green salad too because you need something as a counterpoint. Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Sara: I'm on instagram @saradickerman. And then I've also started a new community on Facebook that I'm hoping people might enjoy that is Second Meals. And that is where people could share their ideas or their creations of great second meals that they've come up with or invented for their leftovers. And then I love Instagram. I'd say that's where I'm most active.Suzy Chase: I'm totally going to check out your Facebook group and join it. That's exciting.Sara: Great. Thank you so much. Suzy Chase: Well thanks, Sara, for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast. Sara: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Really great to talk with you.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram @cookerybythebook and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by the Book podcast, the only podcast devoted to cook books since 2015.