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Calling all homeowners in Stevenson Ranch and Valencia! This is your moment – the market is sizzling, and the stars have aligned for a seller's dream run. Forget bidding wars, multiple offers are the new norm, and competition is fierce. But before you start popping champagne corks, let's unlock the secrets to maximizing your profit in this red-hot market.Sellers, listen up! This is your ultimate guide to success:1. Price it Right: It's a delicate dance. Overprice, and you scare away buyers. Underprice, and you leave money on the table. Trust your realtor (ahem, me, Connor with Honor!) to guide you towards the sweet spot that attracts serious buyers without sacrificing your bottom line.2. Stage to Impress: First impressions matter, and potential buyers love a move-in-ready haven. Invest in professional staging or use your DIY magic to highlight your home's strengths. Think curb appeal and picture-perfect interiors – every detail counts!3. Address Minor Repairs: Don't let leaky faucets or creaky doors become dealbreakers. Fix those minor issues and show buyers you care about maintaining your home. Remember, peace of mind sells!4. Market Aggressively: Don't just rely on the "For Sale" sign. Spread the word! Leverage high-quality photos, virtual tours, and social media reach to attract a wider audience. Remember, the more eyes on your listing, the better.5. Partner with a Trusted Realtor: This is where I come in! As your trusted advisor, I handle the complexities of the transaction, negotiate like a pro, and ensure you get the best possible outcome. Think of me as your secret weapon!But wait, there's more! Even in a seller's market, buyers need to strategize to stand out. So, I've got some bonus tips for buyers:1. Get Pre-Approved: Show sellers you're serious and ready to act fast. Pre-approval gives your offer legitimacy and makes you a more attractive contender.2. Craft a Compelling Offer Letter: Go beyond just numbers. Express your love for the home and highlight any unique aspects of your offer. Personal touches can go a long way!3. Consider Flexible Closing Dates: Be accommodating to the seller's needs, especially if they have specific timelines. Think win-win!4. Waive Contingencies Strategically: Waiving minor contingencies can strengthen your offer, but proceed with caution and consult your realtor. It's a balancing act!5. Be Patient and Persistent: The right home is out there. Stay focused, don't get discouraged, and work with your realtor to turn your dream into reality.Remember, Stevenson Ranch and Valencia offer more than just a hot market – they offer vibrant communities, excellent schools, and a fantastic lifestyle. Whether you're selling or buying, this is your opportunity to seize the moment. Contact me, Connor with Honor, your trusted realtor in Santa Clarita, and let's navigate this exciting market together!P.S. Don't forget to subscribe to my podcast for more valuable real estate insights and market updates!https://youtube.com/@fattofitrealtorFat to Fit Realtor on YouTube#fattofitrealtor

Today I want to tell you about our sponsor for this episode,  Olsen  Dental  Chairs!‍‍Imagine you're a dentist and you spend your whole day around the chair...   Well, Olsen has over  40 years of experience in making those long hours as comfortable as possible for both the dentist  and the patient! ‍If you're a dental professional looking for high quality, cost effective, dental equipment, check out Olson dental chairs!Click this link and mention this episode for a limited time FREE installation with your purchase!‍‍Guest: Damien BonnerBusiness Name: CAD-RayCheck out Damien's Media:Website: www.cad-ray.com Cloud-based Dentist CAD Software: https://www.clinux.pro/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cadraydentalDamien's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mayorofkp/Email: damien@cad-ray.com‍Other Mentions and Links:PattersonCERECAlign TechnologyMedit Scanner3Shape TRIOSSpear EducationZoomTeamViewer‍Host: Michael Arias‍Website: The Dental Marketer Join my newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/‍Join this podcast's Facebook Group: The Dental Marketer Society‍‍My Key Takeaways:Be careful with tech companies that sell products without healthy support. At CAD-Ray, they walk through it with you step by step, even offering assistance in the clinical realm.Patients want to see your cool new tech. Be sure to proudly display it in the office and give patients a chance to share on their social platforms!If you make the patient part of the process with your technology, they will love to share with their friends.Change is good, but too much change at once in your office can be tough on your team.If the team isn't 100% on board with the tech changes, the switch will go poorly. Be sure to show them the value of your new tech!‍Please don't forget to share with us on Instagram when you are listening to the podcast AND if you are really wanting to show us love, then please leave a 5 star review on iTunes! [Click here to leave a review on iTunes]‍p.s. Some links are affiliate links, which means that if you choose to make a purchase, I will earn a commission. This commission comes at no additional cost to you. Please understand that we have experience with these products/ company, and I recommend them because they are helpful and useful, not because of the small commissions we make if you decide to buy something. Please do not spend any money unless you feel you need them or that they will help you with your goals.‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)Michael: All right. It's time to talk with our featured guest, Damien Bonner. Damien, how's it going? Damien: Good. Good. How are you? Michael: Doing pretty good, man. If you don't mind me asking, where are you Damien: located right now? well Actually right this second, I'm in New York, I'm a longtime native of New York, but moved to Florida market about 18 months ago, just up here visiting some family this week.Michael: Oh, okay. Moved to Florida just for funsies or like it was. Damien: I don't know if I want to get into all that too much politics, too much taxes, too much things in New York that uh, after 43 years of living here, I've had enough and uh, took the family and moved to what we thought was gonna be greener pastures.And, so far has been everything we thought it would be especially with the, uh, no state income tax on my, uh, salary. So very important for us. Nice, Michael: man. Awesome. So then, Damien, talk to us a little bit about your area of expertise. What Damien: specifically do you do? so I'm a believer in in your why and what your why is, Not so much what I do, it's why I do what I do. So my goal is to help every dentist become digital so that they can offer a higher level of, Thank you. Patient care and patient satisfaction for their patients. So what does that mean that I actually do? I sell digital technology in the dental space.I've been doing so since 2008. What Michael: type of digital technology do Damien: you sell? In 2008, I started with Patterson Dental as a CEREC specialist, so in office manufacturing, CAD CAM systems digital technology back in the day. Sarah was one of the only players, if not the only player in the marketplace.When I first started today that's obviously grown to many other technologies that offer digital scanning. Intraorally 3D comb beam technology practice management software, CAD software in office manufacturing. And now the big thing is that 3D printing. I went from being a specific CEREC specialist to now selling all the products I just mentioned.Yeah. Michael: Man, that's really good. So then how'd you get into this? Damien: by accident I was in the mortgage industry back in the early 2000. So if you've ever seen the movie the big uh, now I can't remember the name was the movie was but It was a movie about the mortgage industry and subprime lending.I was right in the middle of that noticed things pretty early on that I was making way too much money for doing way too little work and something wasn't right. lo and behold, the market crashed and. I went from a decent salary and commission to making 25, 000 a year.And I didn't want to go back to that part of my life where it was very based on the market, I wanted to do something that I felt was going to change people's lives for the better. And I think everybody needs. Dentistry in their lives. They should. And I had a friend who worked for a line technology and said, Hey, there's this product called Eric and uh, there's an opening.I think you should apply for it. So sort of how I got into it and no idea what I was doing and how I got into it, but haven't looked back one day. Man, Michael: so rewind a little bit. Talk to me about how you felt when you were at that oh man stuff is racking up as far as like bills and stuff like that.Damien: Yeah It's very demoralizing Hard on relationships Having to borrow money from my then girlfriend now wife to make ends meet but she stuck with me through everything realizing that you're at the highs, there's absolute highs and then there's the absolute lows. And I was definitely in a low and while starting in dentistry at 25, 000 a year and slowly building my gradual climb to a normal lifestyle.Was a slow and steady pace, but again, I haven't looked back since my mentor once told me that, you can be up here and down here and up down here and never have a steady aspect of life, but you can maintain the course and just gradually increase what you do. and that's where um, you know, I'm at today and that's how I try to live life is, not go for the gusto and, take life gradually and build upon that every day. I Michael: like that, man. That's really, really good. Really smart. So then the selling part of the digital technology. Do you feel like now there's less selling to do and more people are reaching out and like, hey, we need this, but there's more options?Or do you feel like now we still got to like teach show them like you need technology? Damien: Well, There's a lot of different technologies out there, and they're all great. There's, probably 30 different inter role scanners which needs to be the hot topic for most offices.Getting into digital technology is where they start that aspect. If you look at a practice in general, digital starts with the practice management. So you have your practice management. Which is full digital, at least, hopefully, at least, 95 percent or so have digital and they're not paper files anymore.And then it goes digital x ray, It's no more film turning that corner. From there, intral scanning seems to be the next logical step where panoramic x ray, 3D comb beam, something of that nature. And then comes in office manufacturing. So, We used to call it when I was at Patterson Dental, the digital waterfall of where you have your, 90 percent market share of doctors who are doing practice management digitally, then you have the next level, which was falling over from there.It would be your, digital x ray. And now that market is complete. So now we're back up here. And now we're still at that intro scanner market, which is probably in my estimation, 45 to 50 percent penetration into marketplace. So there's still a lot of dentists who don't have digital technology in their office in some format.We're starting to see that it's going to start shooting a lot higher, a lot more people adding the technology to their practice quicker but adding the right technology is the important aspect. And that's sort of where I come in. Again, when I worked for Patterson, I was selling 1 product.We were selling CEREC. And it was pretty much the only product available at the time, and it was 120, for a full system set up. Not something a lot of people wanted to partake in or invest in as time has gone on. There's been, internal scanners and some people. Who don't want to do in office manufacturing, so they send the files off to a laboratory digitally.The market was dictating that people didn't want to pay extra fees or high prices for these items. And so we at Cadre discovered Medit early on. Medit is an internal scanner that has no fees involved with price point when we first started selling was at 18, 000. So a price point that was unmatched in the industry for the most part without additional fees. that sort of broke down that barrier for a lot of people to start looking seriously at digital technology. and today we're the number one dealer of Medit in the world. We also have Trios. We have Shining 3D. I mean, it's not just, all our eggs in a basket of Medit, but the idea was that We could overcome the obstacle the barrier of many offices, which is cost with the product, as long as the product works and more importantly, we were able to support the product people would adopt to it pretty quickly.And so that it had grown to a point where they have a new system out. The I 700 came out a couple of years ago at an even better price point and even easier to use. And I think that sort of put the industry on notice to re look at their pricing and their fee structures. So a lot of the companies like 3Shape Trios uh, lowered their price, what cost you 41, only a year and a half ago, now cost you 21, 900 with no additional fees.If it has done anything for the industry, it's break down that barrier and also force other companies to look inward and redesign what they're doing. And so I know it's around about answer there, but to answer your question, there's still a lot of selling to do to doctors to make sure they make the right choice.I think they all know they need digital technology in their office at this point. I think, that they're all going to adopt to it, but making sure they adopt to the right one is where our job comes in. Michael: that's interesting. So then, if we rewind a little bit, you said Meta broke down big barriers, right?Big barriers and people were able to adopt it better. To you, what would be the biggest barrier then? Would it be the price point? Damien: Price is always the biggest barrier. again, I can bring it back to my CEREC days at 120, 000. Price is always going to play a factor in any decision anybody makes, whether it's buying a car, buying a house buying anything.Now I choke at spending 3 more for For avocado Chipotle. So price is an important factor for most people, but once you break that price barrier down, I feel it becomes about a mental state of, can I do this? Is it easy to use? And then it comes to, will I be supported? So not just for the sale, but after the sale and beyond the sale.And that's where we at Cadre sort of take over. To give you a little background on Cadre, if I can for a second. we're a distribution company now, since 2018. Again, Medit was our first product. But prior to that Cadre was started by our CEO and clinical advisor, Dr.Armin from Los Angeles. he's a one of the founders of sericdoctors. com. Which is now part of spear education. When he sold his aspect of that sericdoctors. com, he still wanted to maintain educating doctors and bring in technology to these doctors to... Show them what helps him in his practice and educate others, spread his love for technology his geekiness for the digital technology aspect.But one thing he always maintained was Cadre. Cadre was a digital implant planning company. So back when comb beams were 200, 000 and more he had the idea to start these scan centers where. Doctors would be in a metropolis area, like Chicago or la and they can send their patients in to get scanned.He would then take the file, planning the implant and send a surgical stent so that they can do digital implant planning without having to invest in a cone beam. Technology. Obviously, prices on cone beam have come down now. You can get into a cone beam for as low as $40,000. and do the planning yourself.So the scan aspect went away, but the digital planning was still a big part of the business, but education was always his biggest thing and trying to find a product that made sense to expand and educate doctors on was something that he was continuing to look for.So my former colleagues. Rich and John both worked with me at Patterson as CEREC specialists joined forces with Armin and created Cadre Distribution with the idea that we know what it takes to support a doctor. Again, education from Armin on the clinical side of, CEREC dentistry has always been his background.Rich, John, myself, a CEREC specialist for Patterson Dental for over 12 years. we know what it takes to support a doctor to make them successful. and we sort of felt that was where other companies fail. Anybody can sell the product, but supporting the product is the most important aspect. So when we started this venture, it was about the customer first, not about us, not about the product. In many ways, I feel like we're a education and support company first and a sales company second. And doctors noticed that. And we are very, very organic. Company in that we do no outbound marketing at all.Everything we've grown to become has been through social media and through referrals from doctors and you don't get referrals unless you do something really good. and our support with medit has allowed us to grow to where we are today to bring in other products and support our doctors.After so if you were to Google Cadre we have hundreds of five star reviews.Some people talk about the products we sell, but every single person talks about the service, support, and education they receive from us. And that's our calling card. So support is by far the most important aspect of what we do on a daily basis. Nice. Okay. Michael: So then some of the biggest barriers we talked about was like money.But then at the same time, I guess a great point is the support that's how referrals happen. Right. Like you said, Oh my God, they're fantastic. Not so much like, Oh yeah, they're cheap, but they suck. Right It's more like the referrals, their support is really, really great. So then you mentioned something about, Okay. you guys know what it takes to make a doctor successful. what does it take to support a doctor to be successful? Damien: Knowledge, obviously, right? So from a technical standpoint, be able to make sure their technology is working.So if they have an issue, they have one phone over to call. More importantly, they get a live human every single time. There's no numbers to press. Hey, enter your phone number. Let me put you on hold when you call our number. You're going to get a live human anytime between the hours of 8 a. m. and 8 p.m. East Coast time Monday through Friday. From there, that's the technical aspect. More importantly is the clinical aspect. we were virtual before virtual was cool during coven. So we started basically very slow as a virtual company where the beginning we were. Two sales reps and a CEO that was educating people.And we were able to reach anywhere in the country through zoom, like we're doing right now. So the idea of selling technology over zoom, instead of a knee to knee aspect or a clinical demo in an office was something sort of new at the time obviously it's changed now where it's a very um, status quo for most companies, it was, new at the time.so being able to utilize the tools like zoom and team viewer to support the doctors was very important. So one zoom to educate them and train them and then to the team viewer aspect. So we have all sat chair side digitally. In a dental office even our support team. Now, as we've grown, we've brought them in.They have all been dental assistants who have sat chair side. So we speak the lingo. We know the procedures. So at any time the doctor is doing, let's say the 1st implant scan and they need help. not just going to offer them technical help. We're going to log in with them and sit virtually chair side with them and support them to that case.Hey, this is where you need to go next. Okay. You need a better scan of that area. And make them feel comfortable in doing those cases. And we can do that anywhere in the world, at any time, between the hours of 8 and 8, of course. but that's the important factors. Yes, companies can offer technical support, but where they fall, sometimes it's in that clinical aspect.And that's where we take over. Gotcha. Michael: So it kind of leads to my next question. What can a practice owner, a dentist, do today in your opinion, to improve their marketing or their business? Damien: I've always been a believer that if you build it, they will come digital technology in general has been ingrained in me and I've been great at my doctors and I've seen practices grow by adding digital technology.not for just from an overhead perspective. Hey, we're going to cut costs here, or we're going to be able to mail in office and cut down our procedures. But. Referral word of mouth from digital technology, the patient base, I believe, is getting younger and smarter. They know technology, they want to see technology for me growing up I'm 46, my 1st dentist, it was a rotary instrument dentist with you know, big octopus looking thing coming at me.Those things are ingrained in my memory and my kids. Today they go to the dentist with no issues because they like to see the technology and they're not afraid of what's going to happen to them. I fully believe that adding digital technology, no matter how little or how big is definitely helpful to help build that patient base and garner more attention to your practice.Gotcha. Michael: Have you seen any of all the practices you work with, any of the practices where they market the technology in like a unique or smart way or, Damien: or what do you think? well, I mean, social media obviously is a big thing and, you know, especially with tick tock videos and instagram. There's a lot of great information out there now. But back when I first started, there wasn't social media aspect and everyone's doing social media now for the most part.But, displaying your technology, being proud of the technology, bringing patients through 1 thing that I've learned. Walking into thousands of dental offices is that not every single dental office is the same. There's offices that have wood paneling on the walls. They're very old. Nothing wrong with them.Not, knocking the dentistry that's done in those offices, but are they pleasing to the eye? No. And then I've seen offices that are absolutely gorgeous and have no patients. where's the difference there? Where does it lie? And totally always believe it lies in the doctor and the bedside manner of that doctor.And their staff more importantly but I'll ask meeting a new friend or whatever. Ask who their dentist is. And they tell me and I go, oh, okay why do you choose them? I know the office and I've seen the office and I've seen the dentistry that comes out of the office sometimes.And I'm like, all right, I probably wouldn't send my friends and family there, but I'm interested to know why you go there. And, they say it's I've been going there for years, or I just doctors so nice and doesn't oversell me on things. And, it's important to them, but they've also never stepped into another dental office.I'm sure if they walked into a beautiful boutique dental office, they might change their mind of who they see just based on looks. Doesn't necessarily mean they're pumping out great dentistry. But displaying the technology getting people to know that technology exists through marketing digital social media, not so much paid ads.again, personally speaking from my point of view, I think, Facebook ads and social media ads are a waste of money. I think there's a lot of clickbait and a lot of farmers out there that just take your money and people that you want to see really aren't seeing it you think they are.but just through organic social posts and shares I always love the viral videos but, to go back to your original question.Yeah, just marketing technology putting it on display. If you have 3D printer, it's really cool technology. Why not put it where patients can see it and see what's happening or a milling unit in the office, putting it somewhere on display behind a glass case. Patients can see their tooth being made they'll take their phone out.They'll go right up to it. They'll take a video, put it on their social media. And then share it to their friends and family. It's a really cool experience when you see that happen. it happens time and time again when you actually make the patient part of the process. They're always going to pull their phone out and video it.Michael: Yeah, I like that, make the patient part of their process. It's really interesting. now these next questions are just to get into the head of someone who isn't totally involved on the clinical side of dentistry, Working in their mouth every single day. What would you, Damien, like to see more from a Damien: dentist?not to be afraid of adding technology come to courses and learn. I think we fell out of the realm during covid of people attending trade shows and courses and starting to come back a little bit at the trade shows doing lately, seeing more people out there, but definitely not where it was.7 years ago I think that doctors, there's only so much you can learn online and that you need to get out there and learn things in person especially with the C courses, they take the required courses. They take some ancillary courses that you may want to take, but I think anything that you get hands on with.We'll change how they feel about certain things. So if you're curious about digital technologies, definitely take a hands on type course. So you can involve yourself in the dentistry that you want to do. Or thinking about doing not just learning online because it's a big difference when you get to see it, feel it, touch it.Then when you are just, reading something online or reading a Facebook post as many people do. Michael: Yeah. You mentioned afraid, like have you noticed that like a lot of people are afraid to add technology their practice? So why? Damien: Again, it's, it comes down to their mindset. the barrier of prices, I don't think any longer there because it makes more sense to invest in technology than it is to continue to do the analog processes just from a financial aspect.That makes sense. I think from a team perspective is where most people have a hiccup. Whether they don't want to make changes on their team or the team is resistant to change. What I found time and time again is if your team is not on board, you're going to fail with the technology. So having the proper mindset going in with your team is of utmost importance in my opinion.Michael: Okay. And then right now, what do you dislike or Damien: hate about dentistry? There's nothing I really dislike about dentistry. In general, from my perspective, from a patient perspective I hate dental insurance. I see so many people letting dental insurance dictate their all care not doing certain procedures because the dental insurance is not paying for it's not health insurance and while it's nice to have a little discount with your insurance. I would never let that dictate my oral care. If I need something done, I want to get it done, but many patients don't understand that. And, I think it's an education aspect of the patient to let them understand what insurance actually is in the dental world and what it covers and what it doesn't cover.But I see it time and time again where, patients go to get their teeth pulled versus getting an implant because that's what the insurance is paying for. And they don't realize how important their teeth are. So I think education for the patient is the most important aspect of that. Michael: Yeah.No, a hundred percent. Yeah. I agree. And then what needs to change? In your opinion, for people to be more open to dentistry. Damien: I think it's starting to change now just because the population is getting younger and more aware. There's a lot more research going on with overall body health leading from the oral cavity. And, you know, there's a lot of airway issues going on and breathing issues that lead to high blood pressure and other health factors. and they're starting to. Realize that and put a positive spin on dentistry. I think there's a lot of negativity towards dentistry, especially from the patient population when it comes to cost. but I think as the patient population gets younger, starting to realize how important things are that go on inside the mouth and we're starting to see a change there, at least in my opinion.Michael: No, yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. We're starting to see that pivot. Right now, any final pieces of advice or suggestions you'd like to give to our listeners, specifically like startups, people who are practice owners. Damien: So for us, especially with startups and, younger dentists we believe, or I believe especially that we need to meet the doctor where they are today.It's nice to sell about the future. But I don't want to oversell a doctor on an idea or a promise that I can't manufacture for them. What I mean by that is if you're starting practice and you want to add technology, you may think you need a milling unit. You may think you need a printer and a scanner, All at once start with one. technology is still going to be there when you're ready to buy the rest of it. But especially from the team perspective. Change is always good in my opinion, but too much change at once could have a negative impact on a practice. And so if you're getting into digital technology, start with the scanner, start with a comb beam and then go from there.Once you master those things and realize the investment on those products, then you can add the other products. we're all sales reps at the end of the day at Cadre. But it's not about us. It's about the doctor at the end of the day and what's right for them. So don't overbuy buy what you feel comfortable with and get into that mindset of you can always add things on later on.Nice. I like Michael: that. Damien, I appreciate your time. And if anyone has further questions or they want to reach out to you, where can they find Damien: you? You can go to cadray. com. You can reach me personally at Damien, D A M I E N at cad ray. com. And I'm sure you can find me in any social media group involving, dental. I'll be, uh, commenting typically in any digital technology group. So if you haven't heard of me stay out of the group. So you'll, get annoyed by me. Michael: No, they haven't. Now they have, man. Now they have heard of you. So awesome, Damian. We appreciate your time, man. It's been a pleasure and we'll hear from you Damien: soon.Sounds great. Thank you so much for the time.‍

The real reason your wife doesn't want you trading, that's what we're going to talk about today. So I have actually figured it out. And I will share with you the reasons, as well as what you can do about it so that your wife not only does not fight with you about your trading but actually encourages you to do so. Now, before I start this episode, this might be one that you want to listen to alongside your spouse because it just might help, right might start some dialogue between the two of you, and if this is something that you are having issues with. And, you know, although I said wives in the intro, and in the title, this is for all spouses, it works both ways. You know, normally, in what we've come across, as we've seen men trading and wives, having an issue with the trading, or you could be the other way you could be a wife trading, and the husband has an issue, or one spouse has an issue with the other spouse trading. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Hopefully, I don't want to offend anybody. But that's what we're gonna talk about today. And like I said, if you can get your spouse to watch or listen to this with you, it might actually help you, especially if you had a problem with this now. I keep hearing this over and over again, from traders, like, Allen, how do I convince my wife to let me trade or at least to stop nagging me about my trading? Right? And I'm with you guys, right? I mean, with most things, I have no clue what my wife means. Unless she very clearly lays it out for me, because even though she expects me to I still, after even all these years, I still cannot read her mind. So I was thinking about this question, and we were on a drive, we were going on vacation to Colorado. So we had a lot of time in the car. So I turned to my wife and I asked her this. I'm like, Hey, this is a problem a lot of guys have, how do we fix it? What do I tell them what to do? And as soon as I told her this, she looked at me, like dumbfounded. She looked at me. And this is what she said, she goes, Don't you remember what it was like when you first started trading? I had to walk around eggshells around you. I would come home one day after work. And you would be all depressed and moping around and sad. And I'd ask you will happen? Well, why he's so down what happened? And you would say, "Well, the market was down today", and you lost money. Whoo hoo hoo. So the next day, because I didn't want to recap of that, right? The next day, I would check the market before I got home. And I would expect you to be happy because the market was up that day. But ah, no, I get home. And what do I find? I find you my faithful husband moping around sad again. And it was totally confusing. That's what happened? The market is up today I checked, and the market is up. Why are you still sad? And you would tell me "Well, baby, I adjusted my trade. I was going to be smart about it. And I just did like a real trader. And now I want the market to go down. But because it went up again, I lost even more money". She said she couldn't even tell me anything. Like she couldn't help me. She couldn't get mad at me. Because I was already so sad about it all the time. How do you jump on somebody who's messing up and feeling bad, and you just like you gave losing more money? She said that it consumed me that I was horrible to be around and that she never knew what she would get when she got home from work. Especially after a long day of work. She said that she needed somebody to talk to to commensurate with, right? She had a long day she wanted to talk to me. She wanted to talk to her partner. But she couldn't. Because I was upset. I was stressed out. And she says that I'd be watching those stupid stock shows with the crazy bald guy that kept screaming all the time. Yes, that is true. I used to watch that show every night when I was losing money. And I think I stopped and I started making money. I don't know if that's related or not. But that's a different story. And then after all that, then she let me in on a little secret. She goes, look, it's really simple. One of the main things that a woman wants is security. She wants to know that her man will take care of things and that he has them under control so that we won't be homeless or even have the power turned off. Right. That's what a woman wants. That's basic. Every woman wants that. And when you're losing money left and right, she says I don't feel very secure. Does that make sense? I was like, Yeah, that makes a lot. And as you get going on she's like Secondly, a woman does not want her man to be taken advantage of she goes, how many silly courses and videos did you watch thinking you're going to find the secret as if they're going to sell you a secret, right? As if there are any secrets, you kept thinking that the next course. So the next guru had all the answers. So you would get your hopes up, you'd get all excited. And then your hopes would be dashed when it didn't work out, and you just lost more money. Because you were just too emotionally involved. And lastly, every woman wants her man to feel good about himself. And when you were learning how to trade, you just took it too, personally, if you lost money, she says, I would degrade myself. He says I was putting myself down after every trade every bad day, I would call myself stupid. And she said it was just too painful to watch, and that she didn't even know how to help me, and that it broke her heart. So I guess we're looking at as traders, from our point of view, you know, this is something I'm trying to accomplish this is something that is really hard. This is something I'm learning. And with every trade, I'm learning more, even though you know, I'm paying my dues, I'm paying the tuition. But when you flip it, and you look at it from their point of view, it makes a lot of sense. My wife says, Look, I didn't care that you were trading, as long as you are happy and not breaking any laws. She says I don't care how you're earning money. In fact, I want you to do well, I want you to do amazingly well. So yes, women want their independence. But they also want to have the ability to not work if they don't want to. She said we don't want to worry about money. So we want you full to be successful in trading. It's not that we don't want you to be successful in trading. But you're just not. So it's hurtful. So there you have it, right? The problem is not that your wife, at least for most of you. Not that your wife disagrees with trading. The problem is that you are not consistent in your trading. And then once I did get consistent, once I got a better handle on my emotions, my wife started having fewer and fewer issues with my trading. And now she's my number one supporter. So there are times I go home and I'm stressed and I'm down and she'll figure it out. You know what happened, something bad happened. I'm like, Yeah, I lost money on this trade. And she will make me feel better. She'll make my favorite food, she'll do whatever. But it's not every day. And you know, so that's why she can help me when it happens once in a while. She's not shell-shocked anymore. And she's not confused about what's going on anymore. Right? So how do we get your spouse on your side? Well, I got some tips for you. All right. So number one, don't keep them in the dark. This is simple, right? You share your results with them, you'll be open and honest with them don't hide things from that you share the wins. And the losses, this is important, you got to share both. Okay. Number two, you focus less on making money. Right? This is counterintuitive. Don't focus on making money. But focus on not losing money. And I tell this to everybody in the beginning, like in the beginning, when you take any of my courses, I want you not I don't care if you don't make money, I want you to be consistent. I want you to say yeah, this is my result, result result result, I don't want you going shooting for the moon, I want you to just not to lose money. Because once you become consistent, once you have wins after win after wins and you're positive month after month after month. We can just tweak it a little bit. And then you can have the big month. Okay. What scares your spouse are the wild swings in your account, the roller coaster, right where you're doing well, well, well. What your spouse wants to see is a consistent increase in the account no matter how small why? Because that is what normal people, non-trading people. That is what they're taught to expect, right? You put your money in a mutual fund was supposed to do it's supposed to go up every month, and little by little it's supposed to go up. If your mutual fund was going up or not like this, people will not be interested in that mutual fund. Right. They're expecting things to go up. Yes, slowly, slowly, slowly, but they're expecting it to go up and that's what your spouse is expecting of your trading account. Even though that's not usually what happens in the beginning, right? So make sure that you have consistent winners, or at least don't lose money, just don't lose, right? I know that's harder, it's hard. But you don't want to be shooting for the moon, you want consistent results, and that is what's going to help your spouse. Number three, if you are considering a course, or coaching, or something of that nature, let your spouse see all the sales material as well as let her watch the webinar, let her watch the video, let whatever even makes sense to her, get their buy-in, because you're spending money on this thing they're going to spend is coming out of their pocket do, right, get their buy-in, see if it makes sense to them. Number four, if your spouse is willing, learn together, do it together, and watch the courses together. Now, understand her thinking is different from your thinking. Okay, but it is possible to work together. Now, you might not want to do it in the same account, you have your account, she has her account, you're going to do different trades, you're gonna have a different mentality. But even if it's the same strategy that you're using, right, you guys can do it together, even though the trades would be different, even if the strategy is the same, because one is more conservative. One is more resin, blah, blah, blah, right? I don't I'm not saying that you guys should be doing every single trade together in the same account where both of you have to say yes, on the trade. I mean, that's something beyond this conversation. Okay? Number five, keep your trading emotions away from the rest of your life. Now, this is hard. But don't let your trading dominate your life. Okay. And that's why I love passive trading because it doesn't take all day long. It doesn't take most of the day, you know, you learn it, you put it on their strategies that just work. And they don't take all day so that you have a life so that your spouse sees you doing other things. So you can do things that make you happy, like your hobbies, right? You can have a job, you if your job, you're not worried about it, you're not stressed at your job all the time because of your trades. Okay, that's one of the beauties of passive trading and why I keep pushing people Oh, passive trading, passive trading, right? If there was something else out there, that was better, I'd be like, go go do that, go do that. Let's all do it together, right? But there isn't, I haven't found it. This stuff works. And it works in a way for you to not only make money, when a lot of trades, be happy but have a good life. Okay, now, controlling your emotions, right, not letting the market control all of your feelings. This is hard, and it takes time. But once you have more confidence in your trading, your spouse will feel that confidence you will emanate a different energy out of your body. Once you're having more confidence, your spouse will feel that and then they will not freak out as much. Okay? Nowadays, if the markets are up markets down, my wife cannot tell from my behavior. Unless it was a really bad day, a lot of trades went bad, or a big drain that I was looking at, or something I really wanted to happen. It didn't happen. But on normal days, she cannot tell in the past. She could because I would be losing money every day. So she'd rely on the markets crazy today or might get Margaret was crazy a lot like that. That's what I keep telling her I'm Mark is crazy markets, volatile markets up markets down. It's like every day was bad. But now I have my emotions and my feelings under control. So the market is up. Great. I know what to do. the market is down. That's great. I know what to do. I know how to adjust my trades, right? I know how to fix them. I know how to balance them. I know how to do asset allocation so that it's not going to blow up my whole account. Even though I trade for a living. It's okay. Right? You'll get to that point. And now when I go home, it doesn't know what the market did unless she looks it up. Because I'm happy or sad has nothing to do with the market. Usually. Usually, right? It's still stressful. It can be but usually, okay. And then I have a bonus tip number six in the beginning as you start making money, right? Use that money to buy things that your spouse would appreciate. This is kind of like I would say a bribe, but it's not really a bribe, right? Because you're already doing it. And it's working. So you're doing the trades. It's starting to work. You're starting to get results. The account is growing. So I don't care what it is flowers, maybe something simple like that. It could be a weekend getaway could be something nice something small. I'm talking about small things, not about buying a car, right? I'm talking about, okay, you made a couple 100 bucks, great. Use it, to do something to appreciate your spouse, something that they would like, so that she can see. Right? She can see oh, wow, something's happening here, right? And share in the benefits of your trading. Just don't keep all the money in your account thinking I needed to grow. I needed to grow. No, no, no. celebrate the wins with your spouse. Okay, now, when I learned this lesson is a big lesson. Believe me, it doesn't sound like much. But this is a big lesson to celebrate your wins. So when I first learned this, I decided you know what, every time I have a positive month, I'm going to take my wife out for lunch. And that's what we used to do. Every month. If I made money that month, I would take her out to lunch. So we would go out to lunch, but a bit, right. That was assigned to her that I was doing well. So I didn't have to tell her Oh, I was up 6%. I was up 15% I was up point oh, 1%. I didn't have to tell her the percentage. I just had to say, babe, we gotta go for our celebratory lunch, had a good month, let's go, we're gonna go eat. And it would make her happy. Because I did well, I was positive, right? And it helped me to celebrate my hard work. Because I got to do something that I enjoy, which is spending time with her one on one. She enjoys it, I enjoy it. She's seeing that, hey, something is happening here. Good results are happening here. Good things are happening. She didn't like ask all 100 questions like How much money do you make and how many trades you do and what prevented blah, blah, blah. After a while she stopped. She was like, okay, you know what I trust you. I'm seeing consistency, I'm seeing results, I'm seeing that you're having a better control over your emotions and your your discipline and and you know, the way you the way you talk and the way you feel and how angry you get you don't get as angry anymore. I'm seeing this. And I'm happy that you're better. Right. Now, I don't know why we stopped. I think we stopped having the lunch when we had kids need to start that again. Because it is it's a big deal to celebrate the wins. All right. So there you have it, you got the three main reasons your wife does not support your trading. And you have six steps to help her do so. Alright, I hope this was helpful. I hope if you're watching it together, you guys can talk about it. Maybe I missed something. Or maybe there's more to it that you guys can discuss and talk about. And that's the only way to have some open communication. And to get this because trading is an amazing, amazing way in if you're the spouse, I'm telling you right now, let your files let your husband trade. Let him do passive trading, okay, not the other stuff that day trading and the crypto and all that stuff you don't know about that stuff. All right, I can't speak to that. But I can speak to passive trading. And we can show your results that it's working, we can show you results from students that are working, we have a hedge fund where it's working. So we are doing it, we back up our talk with our walk.  And if we can do it, if I can do it, your husband, your wife, your spouse can learn it too. And it's only a matter of time and effort. So if you support them in their trading, it takes one big whoosh off and our wishes but our wishes like the stress level right, it takes one more thing off of their mind where they don't have to worry about it. And that makes them better trader. Because they don't have to be afraid of you. That's one of the things I remember when I was trading is that I was always afraid of my wife finding out how I was doing. I would hide things from her. Even I don't know if I lie to her maybe I don't remember maybe once in a while, you know small little white lies about how I was doing. But I was doing it to protect her from having her be scared from having her get mad at me for losing more money. And then it hurt. Right It bothered me it. It took me longer to get better as a trader because of that. But once she became on my side once she once she decided and once she saw that I really wanted to make this happen. And I was serious. And I was committed. I was working hard at it. Then she came aboard and she got on my side and she started helping me she's like, What can I do to help you? And there's certain things that we have in our programs, where we teach people like here this is how you can use an accountability partner. This is how you can get your spouse or child or whatever, to help you become a better trader. And that's what she did with me. That's where I learned all that stuff. Right? So she started helping me every single day to become a better trader and together as a team. We did amazing and now you know it's come full circle and she's wants to trade. I taught her when we were on that trip right on the vacation I told you about we were in the car, when we got to our destination, we were there for a couple of weeks. And one of these you says, hey, you know, teach me how to do this, this trade that you're doing this new trade, I'm gonna go there cool. And we sat down, we figured out, I showed her how to do it. And she loves it. Right? So she understands it, and she's going to be doing it too. So we're actually going to be trading together we've done in the past, but didn't really, you know, she got busy and stuff. And now we're going to be doing it again. So it's exciting. It's fun, right? It's something that a family can do together, because they're I'm going to be we're gonna be teaching the kids how to do this stuff, too. Because we want their families or their futures to be secure. I don't want them to worry about it and be like, Oh, hey, I gotta go get this job that pays a lot of money. Because I got to take care of myself. No, I want you to be able to trade to take care of yourself. So that way you can go get whatever job makes you happy, even if it doesn't pay that much. So it all trickles down. Right. But again, that's a different topic. I hope this helps. I hope if you have any questions, please reach out. Happy to help you again. Until the next time, trade with the odds in your favor, my friends. Take care.

Movie of the Year: 200225th HourCan 25th Hour capture the title of our 2002 Movie of the Year?25th Hour may be a bit of a forgotten gem of 2002, but it is a gem nonetheless. With Rosario Dawson, Edward Norton, Philip Seymore Hoffman, and Barry "That's-Right-It's-Me" Pepper, the movie has star power to burn. And when your motion picture is directed by one Mr. Spike Lee, you are going to get the Taste Buds' attention.We focus on both Lee and Norton in this episode, giving each a segment. And you couldn't talk about this movie without reckoning with the impact 9/11 had on its production and general vibe, so we take the opportunity to reminisce about how pop culture in general processed 9/11.Of course, no discussion of this film would be complete without a little time spent talking about gross dudes [Can someone (else) figure out how to make it play "Let's Hear It for the Boys" here??-Greg]. Is this movie celebrating them? Excoriating them? We break it down! We break down so many things!All this AND the stuff that I forgot to mention!Visit our websiteUse our Amazon page!Join our Patreon team! (to get the show early and hear bonus segments!)Like us!Follow us!While Americans overwhelmingly support the right of an individual to make their own decisions about abortion, unfortunately, that right is no longer protected everywhere in the U.S.The Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade on June 24th.Abortion is a basic healthcare need for the millions of people who can become pregnant. Everyone should have the freedom to decide what's best for themselves and their families, including when it comes to ending a pregnancy. This decision has dire consequences for individual health and safety, and could have harsh repercussions for other landmark decisions.Restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion, threatens the health and independence of all Americans. Even if you live in a state where abortion rights are upheld, access to safe medical procedures shouldn't be determined by location, and it shouldn't be the privilege of a small few.You can help by donating to local abortion funds. To find out where to donate for each state, visit donations4abortion.com.If you or someone you know needs help, or if you want to get more involved, here are 5 resources:1. Shout Your Abortion is a campaign to normalize abortion.2. Don't Ban Equality is a campaign for companies to take a stand against abortion restrictions.3. Abortion.cafe has information about where to find clinics.4. PlanCPills.org provides early at-home abortion pills

Chad joins cohosts Victoria and Will to talk about thoughtbot's 20th birthday!

Brian Douglas is the CEO of OpenSauced which helps enterprises discover the best engineers in Open Source. Victoria and Will talk to Brian about meeting as many developers as possible, setting goals, and keeping himself accountable, and what makes a successful open source project. OpenSauced (https://opensauced.pizza/) Follow OpenSauced on Twitter (https://twitter.com/saucedopen), GitHub (https://github.com/open-sauced), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/opensauced/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/opensauced), Discord (https://discord.com/invite/U2peSNf23P), and Dev.to (https://dev.to/opensauced). Follow Brian Douglas on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianldouglas/), Twitter (https://twitter.com/bdougieYO), or visit his website (https://b.dougie.dev/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program. We'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today. JORDYN: Thanks for having us. DAWN: Yeah, glad to be here. VICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right? JORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon. JORDYN: Wonderful. VICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round? JORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product. VICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot? DAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time. And we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage. It's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well. VICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right? DAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business? It's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process. VICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP. JORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward. You know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia. He was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing. You know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it? VICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today? DAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders. So you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. INTRO MUSIC: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your host, Will WILL. And with us today is Brian Douglas, CEO of OpenSauced, helping enterprises discover best engineers in open source. Brian, thank you for joining us today. BRIAN: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on the podcast. VICTORIA: Just tell us a little bit more about OpenSauced. BRIAN: Yeah, it's opensauced.pizza is the URL. So I always point that out because it's easy to found. WILL: I love it. BRIAN: And OpenSauced is a platform for engineers to find their next contributions and enterprises to discover the best engineers doing open-source, so... VICTORIA: Right. So maybe tell me what led you to start this company? BRIAN: Yeah, that's a great question. Actually, if you don't mind, I'll start further back. I graduated college in 2008 during the financial crisis with a finance degree. And what I learned pretty quickly is, like, if you don't know anybody in finance, it's a little hard to get a job in a bad market. So I took a sales role instead, mainly because I just wanted to learn. I was very much introverted. I wanted to learn how to talk to people, and have conversation, and communicate. So I did that four years and then got my MBA. And then started learning how to code while building an app, which is...I mentioned before we hit record I learned about this podcast around that time, which is, like, very serendipitous to be on this podcast years later. But, fast forward, OpenSauced, like, because of the whole networking aspect of how I got my job in sales and how I was able to do sales when I learned how to engineer, I knew the connection to open source, or how I learned how to code was, like, a wealth of information. So I made it my career goal to meet as many developers as possible. And then, I was working at this company called Netlify. I was employee number three there. And my role was to basically be a front-end engineer, but where I was actually getting more adoption to the product by doing open source. Like, every time I'd do an open-source contribution, I'd add a Netlify deploy preview manually in my PR. And that would give the maintainer enough juice to review the PR sooner. And I was doing a lot of open-source contribution at the time. So I wanted to build a tool to maintain, like, all the PRs I had opened in-flight that I needed to respond back to or...because back in, like, 2016, notifications on GitHub they weren't the greatest. WILL: [laughs] BRIAN: So I built a tool just to keep up to date on what I had opened and how I can communicate back with the maintainer. And saw a need...actually, I didn't see the need. I used this thing myself, and then in 2020, I started live streaming myself, building more features on top of this, like, CRM tool, and had a few people ask, "Hey, can you add a login to this? I'd love to use this, too, with my own database and stuff like that." So I did that. I added login. And I say database, like, we actually originally started with no database. We used GitHub Issues as a tracking mechanism for tracking repos and conversations. We've since moved away from that because, now, obviously, GitHub's got way more advanced in how notifications work. But the sort of ethos of the project still lives today, and what we have in the open-source platform. So that's, like, the long tale of how we got to where we are today. And then, I spoke at GitHub Universe on OpenSauced back in 2017. And from that talk, I had GitHub employees reach out to me and ask me to work at GitHub. So I accepted, and I worked at GitHub for almost five years, sort of putting OpenSauced to the side up until last year, decided to go ahead and pursue it again. And at that point, decided to make it a company. VICTORIA: What a cool story. There are so many things in there that I want to follow up on. I'm sure, Will, you also are like -- [laughs] WILL: [laughs] Yes. VICTORIA: I have so many questions. [laughs] WILL: Wow, that's amazing just hearing the story from you [laughs] got a four-year degree in finance, 2008 happened, no job, very hard to get a job because of who you know. And then you go and changed directions to start learning to code. And I love how it's kind of guided your path to where you are here right now. Like, who knows? But would you have been the CEO of OpenSauced if 2008 would have never happened? So it's amazing to see it. So, I guess, because I love the idea of OpenSauced...because I am that developer that wants to get into open source, but it is hard. It is hard to find the issues that you can work on. It's hard to get into the community to do that. So, if you can just explain to me a little bit more as from there, and we can do it from the enterprise portion later. But, as far as a user: a developer, what does it look like for me to use OpenSauced as a developer? BRIAN: Yeah, yeah. And that's a great question, too, as well. It's funny how serendipitous the story is today, but when I was living it, it was like, oh, man, I'm never going to get a job. [laughter] Or I'm never going to learn how to code. And I think anybody listening who might be where I was ten years ago, I just want to preface, like, your story is like a guided path through experiences. And every experience is like an opportunity for that sort of one piece of, like, the sort of stepping stone to move on to, like, CEO of whatever your next startup is or senior engineer, or staff engineer, whatever it is. But, to answer your question, Will, we built a Discord, and the Discord itself is how we sort of discovered this sort of onboard ramp into open source. So today, if you sign up to OpenSauced, again, opensauced.pizza, you connect to your GitHub account, and you get on-boarded into a flow to ask a couple questions. So, like, what languages are you interested in? And then, what time zone are you in? And the reason for those two things is, one because we're going to do recommendations for projects pretty soon. Everything is open source, so you can literally see the issues that are open about recommendations; happy to take contributions and feedback on it. And then time zone is because communication is pretty key. So, like, if someone is not awake when I see their PR, I have an expectation of, like, cool, I'll write a response, and I'll wait for them to wake up and respond back to that. So the goal there is there's a lot of projects on GitHub, like, 372 million repos is the number off the top of my head. They literally announce this stuff, and they share the data. But of those repos, only 225,000 have more than five contributors. Understanding what you're looking to accomplish first out of doing open source to either share knowledge, or gain knowledge, to get exposure, to get a job, or just to enhance your current job by go try something that's not in the roadmap of what you're working on. Eventually, we'll start asking those questions around, like, what type of contributor that you want to be, so we can start recommending those types of projects. But I mentioned that 225,000 repo number because there are a lot of projects that don't have five contributors that could use their second contributor, or third, fourth. And my recommendation is always find up-and-coming, like, growth-stage projects. A lot of people want to contribute to React. You had mentioned you did React, Will. That's a really big lift to go contribute upstream to a project maintained and supported by millions of enterprises around the world. But there are tons of projects that go trending every week that have no documentation, that have no README, that have no structure and are just getting off the ground. Like, those are the best projects that we try to showcase. So, like, that's hot.opensauced.pizza is our sort of up-and-coming project list. And the way that works is like projects that are trending based on our open-source community; we surface those there. There's a lot of work we have to do on that project. That was, like, a Hack Week project we did a couple of years ago as a community. But the basis of that is they're looking to build our recommendation engine off that. So, step one is find a project that is welcoming, that needs some work done, and then find the path in. So the path usually is going to be your CONTRIBUTING.md, which is like established projects will have this. But if you don't find a CONTRIBUTING.md, but you find a project you want to use, chances are you could build that CONTRIBUTING.md and ask the question, so, like, hey, how would I contribute? Like, how can I be supportive? Actually, I did this talk a couple of years ago at Juneteenth Conf. It was a remote conference on Juneteenth, which a bunch of Black Engineers we all gave our technical expertise sponsored by Microsoft. And I was talking about the idea of open-source hospitality. The best thing you could do is be that sort of hospitable person, either you're a maintainer or a first-time contributor. Like, be that person to set it up for the next person behind you. And the idea of hospitality, you go to a hotel. Like, you know where the towels are. Like, you know where the soaps are. Like, you know exactly where everything is all the time. And, in open source, like, if we could set up our projects in a very similar fashion, like, not franchise them in a way like the Hilton or Marriott, but set the expectation that there is a way to source information and to interact and operate, so... VICTORIA: Yeah, I mean, I love, [laughs] like, hot.opensauced.pizza. That's hilarious. And I love how you have used humor to...even though it's a very serious product, we're making it more friendly and more hospitable like you're saying. And I like how you said, you know, the journey is cool looking back on it, but it was really hard to go through it. And now you're this wonderful speaker and a CEO. But you said that you weren't actually good at talking to people at first. And you specifically sought to get better at that skill. So I wonder if you would share more about that, how that's impacted your career, and why that's important as a developer to have those communication skills. BRIAN: Yeah, it's like...I have a twin brother since birth, basically. And my twin brother is very extroverted. Like, he actually used to wait tables in college. It was like he was the person that would make you feel very special as a server. Like, he's the type of person that kind of lights up the room when you walk in. His name is Brock. My entire life growing up, I was always Brock's brother. And it's like, oh, you're Brock's brother. And it's like, yeah, I'm Brock's brother. And I'm more of a person, like, if you meet me in person, like, I'm very much reserved. I'm sort of reading the room, waiting for my point to jump in. And I made it a point for me to, like, have enough comfort to speak on a podcast or speak at a conference because I knew that skill set would be valuable. Because I definitely had, in my sales career, definitely got overlooked for a lot of opportunity because folks thought, oh, I don't think Brian could do it. So coming into tech and seeing that when every time I went to a meet up...because meetups also are places where I cut my teeth and got to learn about the industry and the community. They always needed someone to speak. So I was, like, oh, there's an opportunity. I can leverage this opportunity of them always looking for speakers and me always wanting to share knowledge and learn something new to do talks. So my first-ever conference talk was in San Francisco. And I had learned React Native, but prior to React Native, I had learned Objective-C. And then, in between Objective-C and React Native, I learned Swift because React Native and Swift came out the same year. Well, React Native went public, open source, the same year as Swift. So it was like a really interesting year back in; I think it was 2017 where...actually, it might have been 2016. But, anyway, everything came out at the same time. And I was learning iOS development. So I made it a point for me to give a talk. But my pet peeve for giving talks is, a lot of times, people just go directly into the code, and there's, like, no connection to a story, or why do I care about this? So I always bring storytelling into my conversations and talks. So, like, that talk about Swift, and Objective-C, and React Native, I made the comparison of, like...it was the same year that Kanye West took the mic from Taylor Swift at the VMAs or whatever the award show was. And the correlation was React Native took the mic away from Swift because it built similar interactions for JavaScript developers to understand and build iOS applications that was not like Ionic or RubyMine or...I forgot the Ruby one. But, anyway, what I'm getting at is, I just wanted to bring story to this because usually what happens is like, you see cool things, but you never remember what the name is. You try to find that REPL again, or you try to figure out who that speaker is. And it's usually hard to find it after the fact. So, like, my goal was always to make it memorable, which is why I go by Bdougie because Bdougie is easier to Google than Brian Douglas. Shout out to Brian Douglas, who's based in Ireland who does system engineering, and has a great YouTube channel. Like, I want to be memorable. And I want to make it easy for folks to find me after. So, while at GitHub, when I was developing all this sort of like Kanye West-type speaking and stuff like that, well, literally, I would use Kanye West years ago as the example to understand storytelling. I no longer use Kanye West. I'm now a Beyoncé advocate. [laughter] So I use Beyoncé instead. But I guess what I'm getting at is, like, I just had a goal. And I knew if I could teach myself to code...and it was about 17 weeks it took me from zero to ship a Ruby on Rails app. And I felt confident enough to talk about it. I knew basically anything I could just accomplish just by putting some effort and consistency behind it. So that's the...sorry, that was a little more long-winded than expected. But I just keep accountable and set goals for myself and try to achieve enough to feel proud about at the end of the year. WILL: Yeah. It's so funny because I recently had a similar situation. At thoughtbot, we try to engage with the community, and one of the ways was writing a blog post. I've never been a writer. It just hasn't been my thing. But I was telling my boss, I was like, I'm going to do that to get outside my comfort zone and to really stretch myself. And at the same time, I was like, why a blog post? Like, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense why a blog post. Well, when I started writing the blog post, I was like, oh, you have to really know, one, what you're talking about in order to write about it. And so I had to really do some research, really had to study it. And I finished it last week. And then, now, looking back over the last couple of months it took me to write that blog post, I'm like, wow, I feel stretched. But I feel really good, and I feel really good about the topic that I did. So that's interesting that you went through that process to stretch yourself and to grow and even learning to code and get to that point. So talking about...you were at Netlify, and then you worked at GitHub. And then you're at your current one OpenSauced. How have Netlify and GitHub, the work that you did there, how has it prepared you for your position right now? BRIAN: You know, actually, that's a great question. I don't know how much thought I put into that. Like, Netlify prepared me because it gave me an opportunity. So I was employee number three, but I had a sales background. And so I got to be an engineer, but they kept always trying to ask me like, you know, business questions and strategy. And, like, I pitched them a 30-60-90 in my interview of, like, what's the growth strategy of Netlify, like day zero when I start? And I go into way more detail in other content. But that prepared me because I got to see how startups work, being so early. I got to see that startup go from seed-funded, just closed their seed round to get their series B is when I left. At GitHub, I got to see what it looked like at a bigger company, which, like, it doesn't matter how big or small you are, like, there's always chaos. Like, GitHub was, like, so much chaos, and there was a lot of good that was happening but a lot of uncertainty at the time I joined in 2018. And then, nine months later, Microsoft acquired GitHub. So then I got to learn stability and what it looks like to...for personal reasons, I always had a budget but never had extra money, even years into my engineering career. And that taught me what it looks like when success meets career. With that being said, like, the problem that I'm solving, I got to learn firsthand while being at Netlify and getting adoption and traction through open source. And then going to GitHub and seeing every single other company that looked at GitHub as a solution to their open-source collaborations and interactions. And then also seeing that there was a hole in just understanding, like, how do you survive? How do you sustain yourself as your career but also your open-source project? Like, a lot of folks want to know, like, what success looks like for open source. Like, how do you get on the trending algorithm? Like, how do you get noticed? It's more than just pushing to GitHub and hoping for the best. There are, like, other things that happen for projects to be successful. And for us to choose the next in the future technologies, it really comes down to community, marketing, and then resources. And those three things end up making projects successful. With OpenSauced, we're working to help inflate some storytelling and add some of those resources to open-source projects. VICTORIA: Great. So you were able to really get, like, the full vision of what it could be if you had a product that became successful and stable, and you knew you wanted to build it on open source. So I love that you really just...you had this problem, and that's what you built the product around. And that ended up becoming the business. What was surprising for you in those early discovery phases with OpenSauced when you were first thinking of building it? BRIAN: I guess what's really surprising is we're not, like, crazy traction today. But we've done a pretty good job of getting, like, 2,000 developers to sign up to it since December. And then the conversations with enterprises so far just by the sheer...like, basically, what was surprising is if you use proper sales technique and you're early stage as a startup, so, like, not necessarily hire salespeople, but as a founder or as a stakeholder, just go talk to your future customers and your users. Everyone says it, but that's actually super valuable. And I think in the same vein of open source, folks they see projects die on the vine, but then you see projects succeed. And I think it also comes down to how often the maintainer of the project is talking to the contributors and the users and also that distinction as well. There are folks who want to contribute code to the codebase, but then there are folks who want to use the codebase. And, like, how do you interact between the two? And how do you cross the chasm for those folks as well? And, a lot of times, it's just fascinating just, like, just by trying, and just by showing up, that's half. It's all cliché stuff, like, I could say, but it's all true. Like, showing up is, like, it's, like, step one. Just show up, do the thing, do the work. And then talk to people is, like, step two. And it's hard to say, like, okay, yeah, because we are not a multibillion-dollar company, like, we're just getting started. So I can't say, like, yeah, we're super successful. But we've survived the year. And we've survived the year based on those two steps, the showing up and then talking to people. Because a lot of times, we could get lost in the sauce, per se, of just shipping code and never talking to anybody and never coming up for air. And I think what I learned, going back to what I learned from GitHub and Netlify, is talking to people and getting that feedback loop going is the best thing you could do for any product. Any early project, any feature you're working on, talk to people about it and see if it's actually valuable for somebody that after you ship it, something will happen. WILL: You're talking about communication is a big thing for a successful project. Have you noticed any other trends that make a successful open-source project? BRIAN: Yeah, that's...Any other trends? Yeah. I mean, AI, [laughs] just kidding. WILL: [laughs] BRIAN: No, I mean, but it also it is true, like, having a trend not sort of following the herd, but catching the herd earlier is extremely valuable. Like, at Netlify, we caught the trend of React. So, basically, Netlify built essentially GitHub Pages but a product and a company. And that was, like, the original project of Netlify. It's expanded so much further from that. But at that time, when I joined, I joined three months before Create React App was developed. So, like, it was a CLI tool to build React apps easy. And, prior to that, React was, like, super complicated to get up and running. Like, you had to know Webpack. You had to know, Babel. You had to make all that glue happen together. And then there wasn't an easy process to go host it somewhere. So the prevalence of build tools like Grunt, and Gulp, and Browserify, they all made it easier to build a static output from React. And that trend is what took Netlify to where it is today. It's like, people needed a place to deploy these static applications. GitHub Pages was like the solution for a lot of folks. Because Heroku, like, why pay $7 for something you could host on S3 for free? But the challenge was S3 it requires way more thought in how you host and take it down and deploy, and then it becomes like a Kubernetes nightmare. So the trend there was, like, people just wanted to have a better developer experience. When it comes to, like, open source, the developer experience in JavaScript has improved so much more. But folks are now looking at the next thing like a Zig, or a Rust, or all these other new languages and server renderings and stuff like that. So I guess when I take a step back, when I look at how I chose things I wanted to work on, and communities I wanted to hang out in...before committing to React...I'm based out here in Oakland, so San Francisco, basically. By seeing the sheer number of RSVPs to the React meetup, it made me confident that React would be something I should pay attention to. When you look at the RSVPs of now all these AI meetups that are happening in San Francisco, like, every single weekend is a hackathon. Highly confident that if you're engineering today, you probably want to know what embeddings are and know how OpenAI works. Not that you necessarily have to build AI stuff, but it is going to be the thing that people are going to be using. So just like we had to learn build tools, and servers, and CDNs prior, now it's all trivial stuff that you can sort of use Cloudflare for free. Like, AI is going to be very similar, and it's probably going to happen much quicker. But, in the time being, the trend right now is, like, you should probably understand whatever the players are in that space so that way you're able to talk confidently about it. WILL: That's really good advice, yep. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And, you know, in my role as Managing Director of Mission Control, or, like, DevOps, SRE platform, I spend a lot of time looking at trends, more on the engineering side. So I think my question is, [laughs] as someone who hires people to work on open-source projects, and who actively maintains and contributes to open-source projects, what should I be thinking about how to use OpenSauced as in my role? BRIAN: For hiring and sourcing skilled folks, we're actually working on a tool right now to make it more discoverable. So, today, when you onboard as an individual developer, you can check a box in your settings to say, like, if you want to collaborate with other folks, you have to opt into it. So if you want to be discovered on OpenSauced, it's in the settings. We'll probably expose that and share more about that in the future, like, in the next month or so. But for, in particular, our user flow today for folks looking to find other people to contribute alongside their project is, you add your project to what we call an Insight Page. You click on the tab on the top and create a page with your project. And then, you can see contributions in your project in the last 30 days. And then you can also add other projects like your project, so you can see who else is contributing. So, that way, you can start discovering folks who are making contributions consistently and start to get some stories of, like, if they're interested in collaborating, they'll check that box; if they're not, the box won't be checked. But at least you know the sort of scope of the ecosystem. As an individual developer, we have the onboarding flow, but then we also have highlights. So, eventually, we'll do recommendations to get you to make contributions. But, for now, if you're already making contributions, you can highlight the contributions you've made so that way, you're more discoverable on the platform. And the highlights are very much like a LinkedIn post or a tweet. You just drop in a PR, and then we'll either generate that description for you, or you write a description: I did a thing. This is what it was. This was the experience. And then, now you're attached to the project through not just a code contribution but also a discovery mechanism, which is a highlight. And then, eventually, we'll start doing blog posts, and guides, and stuff like that, as they're written. Like, if you want to attribute your career, and your journey to your participation to, like, documentation updates and stuff like that, those will also be highlights coming soon. WILL: I love, love, love that. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff WILL: I hear you saying that you have some things that's coming soon. In a high, high level, what are some of the things that you have coming? And what does success look like, six months, a year? What does that look like? Because it sounds like you have some really good ideas that you're working on. BRIAN: Yeah, yeah. So, like, six months to the end of the year, what we want to do is actually start getting more deeper insights to what's happening in open source. What we're doing right now is building the individual developer profile and experience so that way, they're able to be discovered, find projects to work on. And then what's next is there are tons of enterprises and companies that are maintaining open-source projects, SDKs. And what we're seeing right now is we're seeing massive layoffs happening currently in the industry. So like, as of today, I think Facebook laid off 4,000 people, ESPN laid off, like, 7,000 Disney employees as well. And some of those employees are around the Disney+ place. It's a lot of technical engineering stuff. So I guess what I'm getting at is there...we want to be able to see the trends of places that activity is happening and start recommending people to that. But also, we want to give an opportunity for folks who...companies...sorry, I'm avoiding trying to name specific companies because nothing is in contract yet. But certain companies, like, you, don't think of as an open-source powerhouse. So, like, a company we're now talking to right now is walgreens.com. And Walgreens they have tech. They've got open source that they participated. But they're not thought of as a place like, oh, I want to go work at Walgreens and go work on some cloud infrastructure stuff. So, how does Walgreens get exposure? And, like, hey, we're involved in the kubectl, and the Kubernetes platform and stuff like that, like, be aware that there's opportunity here. So we're going to start driving that connection to folks. So, as you develop your career doing open source, you can also be noticed, and folks can reach out to you. And also, I want to stand on the notion of open source is not for everybody. But I also want to point out, like, my entire career in open source has not been nights and weekends. It's always been finding a company that supports my interest to do open-source at work. Part of my story is, like, I was getting an MBA. My first kid, who's nine years old now he, was born 11 weeks early. And he's the reason why I built an app because I wanted to build an app to solve a pain point that I had, and ended up building that in 17 weeks. And that turned into opportunity. So I guess what I'm getting at is, like, folks being laid off right now, you might have some extra free time. You might be submitting like 100 applications a day. Consider taking that down to 50 applications a day, and then try to contribute to a couple of open-source projects a month. So that way, there's some more story to be shared as you're in the job market. VICTORIA: I love that you created that app when you had your son and you had that need. And for developers wanting to get noticed and wanting to get their next leg up or maybe even negotiate for higher salaries, what's the traditional way people do that now to kind of highlight themselves? BRIAN: The traditional way what people are doing is they're tweeting. They're speaking at conferences. They're sharing their stories. It's like zero to I'm an influencer in the open-source space. There's no real clear guide and steps to get to that point, which is why we have highlights today. Like, we want to make it low effort for folks to write 200 characters about something they contributed to. We're actually working on something to generate pull request descriptions because I think that's another missed opportunity. Like, when you open a PR in an open-source project, and it says no description added, like, that's a missed opportunity. Like, there's an opportunity for you to share what you've learned, what Stack Overflow questions you looked at, like, how you got to the problem, and why this is the right solution. All should be in the pull request description. And then that pull request should be in your cover letter for your resume so that people can go back and say, "Oh, wow, you did some real work." I can go see the history of your contributions because perhaps the job you got let go from you only worked in private repos. You couldn't really showcase your skills. That now gives you a competitive edge. And I guess when I look into this, like, going back to my original onboard ramp into engineering, I graduated with a finance degree with no network. I had one internship at an insurance company, but that wasn't enough. Like, everyone who I interned with, like, the guy who got a job at the internship, like, his dad was a client, was a big client at that firm. And another guy he worked at a golf course, and he'd be the caddy for all these big finance folks where I went to school. So, once I learned that there's an opportunity to get a job by just knowing people, that changed my entire path. Like, when I got to sales, like, oh, or when I got to engineering, I just knew go and meet people. Go have conversations. Go to meetups. What I'm trying to do with OpenSauced is make that step closer for folks, so they could look up and be like, you know, I've made all these contributions, or I don't know where to start. Let me just look at people who I know and follow in the industry and see where they're contributing, and make that connection. So, like, we've kind of closed that gap without the need of, again, you don't need 100,000 Twitter followers to get noticed. Just make some contributions or show up and ask questions. And, hopefully, that's the first step to establishing your career. VICTORIA: Well, that sounds great for both people who are looking to get hired, but also, as someone who hires people, [laughter] I know that there's a lot of amazing developers who are never going to do a conference talk, or they're not going to post on Twitter. So I love that that's available, and that's something you're working on. BRIAN: Yeah, it's just coming out of my own pain of, like, I was saying, like, looking at the story now, it sounds great. [laughs] But part of that story was like, hey, I was getting severely underpaid as an engineer in San Francisco, living in a one-bedroom apartment with two kids. Like, all that part of the story is like nothing I dwell on. But it's like, all that opportunity and knowledge-sharing that I ended up benefiting from, it's like what I constantly try to give. I pay it forward with folks. And I'm more than happy to talk with folks on Twitter and in OpenSauced Discord and other places because I think there's a lot of opportunity in open source. And if anybody's willing to listen, I'm willing to show them the path. WILL: I'm so glad you brought that up because this is one of my favorite questions I ask on the podcast: So, knowing where you're at right now and your story, you've gone the ups, the downs, all of it. If you can go back in time and know what you know now, what advice would you give yourself at the beginning? BRIAN: Honestly, I would say write it down. Like, one thing that I did is I did a blog post, and that's part of the reason why I was able to find my first job in engineering is I started a blog, which was really for myself to learn what I did yesterday. I tell everyone who I mentor it takes two hours every time you want to sit and learn something new because one hour is to remember what you did yesterday, and then one hour is to do something new. And so, I usually write it down and then make it a blog post just to solve that problem. I wish I did more with that, like, you know, wrote a book, or created a YouTube channel, or something because all that knowledge and that sort of sharing is actually what got me to level up faster. I was asked by one of my close friends, like, "Hey, how do you do it? How do you accomplish everything you've done in the last, like, 9-10 years?" And I didn't know what the answer was then. But the answer today for my friend, and I'll share this with them, is it's because I wrote it down. I was able to go back and see what I did. And then, at the end of six months, I was able to go back six months and see what I did. It's like the idea of relativity with, like, Einstein. Relativity is the idea of motion and the perception. Like, if you're in a train, it feels like you're just going slow. But you might be going 100 miles per hour, but you don't feel that. And when you're going on your journey, you could be going 100 miles per hour, but you're thinking, oh, man, I failed yesterday. I could have solved a problem. But yeah, you solved six problems while trying to solve for one. It's that situation. So advice for myself, in the beginning, write it down and then share it way more than I did when I started. Because a lot of the stuff I'm like, even in this conversation, I'm thinking, oh yeah, this, this, and this. And I never shared that before, and I wish I did. So yeah. WILL: I love that. Because yeah, I feel like that's development, like, you have some weeks that you're shipping out multiple features. And then other weeks, you're like, I barely got one out, or I barely fixed this one bug that I've been trying to...struggling with the last couple of weeks. So yeah, I like that advice. Write it down. And remember where you've been, remember. I just love the example you used, too, because it does seem like I haven't made any movement. But when you look back, you're like, no, you actually made a lot of movement. And you were very successful with what you did. So that's great advice. VICTORIA: I sometimes write things, and then I go back maybe six months later and read them. And I'm like, who wrote this? [laughter] I don't remember learning this stuff. Oh yeah, I guess I did, right, yeah. [laughs] No, that's so cool. What questions do you have for us, Brian? BRIAN: I'm curious in, like, how do thoughtbot folks stay up to date? Like, what does your involvement in open source look like today? VICTORIA: Yeah, so we are known for being active maintainers of a lot of very popular Ruby on Rails gems. So we're a consulting agency. So we're able to structure our time with our clients so that we can build in what we call investment days, which is typically Fridays, so that people can contribute to open-source projects. They can write blog posts. They can do trainings. And so that gives us the structure to be able to actually allow our employees to contribute to open source, and it's a huge part of our business as well. So if you have a Ruby on Rails project, you're probably using one of our gems. [laughs] And so, when there's other crises or other things happening in an organization, and they want to bring in an expert, they know that that's who thoughtbot is. Of course, we've expanded, and we do React, and now we're doing platform engineering. And we have some open-source TerraForm modules that we use to migrate people onto AWS and operate at that enterprise level with a mix of managed products from AWS as well. And that continues to be, like, how we talk to people [laughs] and get that buzzword out there is, like, okay, there's this cool open-source project. Like, one I'm excited about now is OpenTelemetry. And so we're digging into that and figuring out how we can contribute. And can we make a big impact here? And that just opens the door to conversations in a way that is less salesy, right? [laughs] And people know us as the contributors and maintainers, and that creates a level of trust that goes a long way. And also, it really speaks to how we operate as a company as well, where the code is open and when we give it back to the customers, it's not. Some organizations will build stuff and then never give it to you. [laughs] BRIAN: Yeah. So it sounds like folks at thoughtbot could probably benefit from things like OpenSauced for discoverability. And I get a lot of conversation around in OpenSauced as like, how do I get connected to maintainer of X or maintainer of Y? And the first step is like, how do I even know who the maintainer is? Because when you go to GitHub, you could sort this by last commit date, which not a lot of people know. You can sort the contributors by most frequently and stuff like that. But it's challenging to find out who to reach out to when it comes to packages, especially when people move on. Like, someone created a thing. They have tons of commits. And then they look like they're the number one committer for the past ten years, but they left five years ago. Those are things that we're trying to make more discoverable to solve that problem. But then, going into that thoughtbot thing, is like being able to reach out to thoughtbot and be like, oh, who can I reach out to about this gem? And, say, I have an idea, or we have an issue; how can we get unblocked because we're using this in our product? And I imagine with consulting, there's an opportunity to say, hey thoughtbot...which, honestly, at Netlify, we used thoughtbot to solve some harder problems for us. We were just like, yeah, we don't have the bandwidth to go down this path. Let's go to consulting to unblock us in this arena. VICTORIA: Right. And that was really important to me in making the decision to join thoughtbot last year is that it was built around open source. And that ethos really spoke to me as, like, this is a place where I want to work. [laughs] And you can think of, like, if you're looking for vendors, like, oh, I want to work with people who have that same ethos. So yeah, OpenSauced seems like a really cool product. I'd be curious about how we can leverage it more at thoughtbot. BRIAN: We just shipped a feature called Teams, which it's self-explanatory. But, basically, when you build an insight page, you're able to build a team to help the discover process of what's happening in contributions. You get details and reporting on OpenSauced. The goal is basically to unblock teams who are involved in open source together and make it more discoverable for folks who want to find maintainers and collaborate with them. VICTORIA: Will, I know we're running close on time. But I had one more question about what you said around making open source more hospitable. And, you know, you mentioned going to Juneteenth Conf. And I'm curious if you have a perspective on if open source is equitably accessible to everyone or if there are things we can be doing as a community to be more inclusive. BRIAN: Yeah, it's a great question. So the first answer is quick, it's no. The reason why it's no is because we have to admit [laughs] where there are inequitable situations. And as much as we want to set this up of, like, I want to say that there's opportunity for everyone to contribute based on no matter where their background, but just by your time zone, makes it inequitable of, like, whether you can contribute to open source. Because if you look at the data and zoom out, most open source happens in the West Coast U.S., so from San Francisco to Seattle. Like, majority of contributions are there. There are reasons for that. Like, California has a very, very expressive clause of like where you can contribute. And, technically, your employer can block you on doing open-source contributions. Unless you sign...like, at Apple, you sign away your rights to be able to do that in your employee offer letter. Sorry, [laughs] not to be a dig against Apple. Apple buy lots of open source. But what I'm getting at is that the opportunity is there, but it's the awareness thing. I'm part of an organization called DevColor. It's an organization of Black engineers in tech. We have squads and monthly meetings where we just talk about our career, and growth, and stuff like that. And I attribute a lot of that interactions to my success is, like, talking to other folks who are years ahead of me and have a lot more experience. But I say this because the majority of the folks that I interact with at DevColor they don't do open source because they all...to be a Black engineer at a level of like senior engineer at Netlify, or a staff engineer, or a manager...sorry, I meant, like, Netflix but Netlify too. You basically had a career path of, like, you probably went to school at a decent engineering school, or you figured out how to get a job at Facebook or Google. And, like, that's pretty much it. And, like, this is a blanket statement. I totally understand there are outliers. But the majority of the folks I interact with at DevColor they have a job. They have a great job. And they're doing the thing, and they're being very successful. But there's less community interaction. And that's what DevColor exists for is to encourage that community interaction and participation. So, at the end of the day, like, there's opportunity to make it more equitable. So things like, every time there's a release cut for a major open-source project, why not go to Black Girls CODE and have them build something with it? And, again, very specific, like, React 19 that's currently being tested, why not go to all these other underrepresented organizations and partner with them to show them how to use this project? Because the assumption is everyone in open source, you got to be senior enough to participate, or if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen. But if we set up a place for people to interact and level up, in three or four years from now, you'll see the open-source ecosystem of that project be completely different as far as diversity. But it takes that investment to have that onboard ramp to even have that connection or conversation about testing early releases with underrepresented groups in engineering. That's where we have to start, and that's what we're trying to do at OpenSauced. We want to make that connection. I have a whole plan for it. I'll share in a blog post. I also mentioned that a lot of these thoughts are on our blog as well. I've been writing blog posts around these conversations. So opensauced.pizza/blog if you're interested. VICTORIA: Very cool. Thank you for that. WILL: I'm just processing on the whole conversation. It has just been great. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And I wonder, do you have any final takeaways for our listeners today, Brian? BRIAN: Yeah, final takeaways. Like, if anything at all resonated in this conversation, please reach out, bdougie on GitHub. I'm pretty active with my notifications. So if you @ mention me in a random project, I'll probably jump back in and respond to you. But also Twitter @bdougieYO. And then, I mentioned our blog. We also have a newsletter. So, if you're interested in any of this OpenSauced journey, please join us there, and keep in touch. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me @will23larry This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Brian Douglas.

Lauren Maffeo is the author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Victoria talks to Lauren about human-centered design work, data stewardship and governance, and writing a book anybody can use regardless of industry or team size. Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Governance-Ground-Data-Driven/dp/1680509802) Follow Lauren Maffeo on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmaffeo/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/LaurenMaffeo). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program. We'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today. JORDYN: Thanks for having us. DAWN: Yeah, glad to be here. VICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right? JORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon. JORDYN: Wonderful. VICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round? JORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product. VICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot? DAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time. And we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage. It's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well. VICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right? DAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business? It's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process. VICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP. JORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward. You know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia. He was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing. You know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it? VICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today? DAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders. So you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. INTRO MUSIC: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Maffeo, Author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Lauren, thank you for joining us. LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. I'm excited to dive right into this topic. But first, maybe just tell me what led you to start writing this book? LAUREN: I was first inspired to write this book by my clients, actually. I was working as a service designer at Steampunk, which is a human-centered design firm serving the federal government. I still do work for Steampunk. And a few years ago, I was working with a client who had a very large database containing millions of unique data points going back several centuries. And I realized throughout the course of my discovery process, which is a big part of human-centered design work, that most of their processes for managing the data in this database were purely manual. There was no DevSecOps integrated into their workflows. These workflows often included several people and took up to a week to complete. And this was an organization that had many data points, as mentioned, in its purview. They also had a large team to manage the data in various ways. But they still really struggled with an overall lack of processes. And really, more importantly, they lacked quality standards for data, which they could then automate throughout their production processes. I realized that even when organizations exist to have data in their purview and to share it with their users, that doesn't necessarily mean that they actually have governance principles that they abide by. And so that led me to really consider, more broadly, the bigger challenges that we see with technology like AI, machine learning, large language models. We know now that there is a big risk of bias within these technologies themselves due to the data. And when I dug deeper, first as a research analyst at Gartner and then as a service designer at Steampunk, I realized that the big challenge that makes this a reality is lack of governance. It's not having the quality standards for deciding how data is fit for use. It's not categorizing your data according to the top domains in your organization that produce data. It's lack of clear ownership regarding who owns which data sets and who is able to make decisions about data. It's not having things like a data destruction policy, which shows people how long you hold on to data for. So that knowledge and seeing firsthand how many organizations struggle with that lack of governance that's what inspired me to write the book itself. And I wanted to write it from the lens of a service designer. I have my own bias towards that, given that I am a practicing service designer. But I do believe that data governance when approached through a design thinking lens, can yield stronger results than if it is that top-down IT approach that many organizations use today unsuccessfully. VICTORIA: So let me play that back a little bit. So, in your experience, organizations that struggle to make the most out of their data have an issue with defining the authority and who has that authority to make decisions, and you refer to that as governance. So that when it comes down to it, if you're building things and you want to say, is this ethical? Is this right? Is this secure? Is it private enough? Someone needs to be responsible [laughs] for answering that. And I love that you're bringing this human-centered design approach into it. LAUREN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I would say that ownership is a big part of data governance. It is one of the most crucial parts. I have a chapter in my book on data stewards, what they are, the roles they play, and how to select them and get them on board with your data governance vision. The main thing I want to emphasize about data stewardship is that it is not just the technical members of your team. Data scientists, data architects, and engineers can all be exceptional data stewards, especially because they work with the data day in and day out. The challenge I see is that these people typically are not very close to the data, and so they don't have that context for what different data points mean. They might not know offhand what the definitions per data piece are. They might not know the format that the data originates in. That's information that people in non-technical roles tend to possess. And so, data stewardship and governance is not about turning your sales director into a data engineer or having them build ETL pipelines. But it is about having the people who know that data best be in positions where they're able to make decisions about it, to define it, to decide which pieces of metadata are attached to each piece of data. And then those standards are what get automated throughout the DevSecOps process to make better life cycles that produce better-quality data faster, at speed with fewer resources. VICTORIA: So, when we talk about authority, what we really mean is, like, who has enough context to make smart decisions? LAUREN: Who has enough context and also enough expertise? I think a big mistake that we as an industry have made with data management is that we have given the responsibility for all data in an organization to one team, sometimes one person. So, typically, what we've done in the past is we've seen all data in an organization managed by IT. They, as a department, make top-down decisions about who has access to which data, what data definitions exist, where the data catalog lives, if it exists in an organization at all. And that creates a lot of blockers for people if you always have to go through one team or person to get permission to use data. And then, on top of that, the IT team doesn't have the context that your subject matter experts do about the data in their respective divisions. And so it really is about expanding the idea of who owns data and who is in a position of authority to make decisions about it by collaborating across silos. This is very challenging work to do. But I would actually say that for smaller organizations, they might lack the resources in, time, and money, and people to do data governance at scale. But what they can do is start embedding data governance as a core principle into the fabric of their organizations. And ultimately, I think that will power them for success in a way that larger organizations were not able to because there is a lot of technical debt out there when it comes to bad data. And one way to avoid that in the future or to at least mitigate it is to establish data governance standards early on. VICTORIA: Talk me through what your approach would be if you were working with an organization who wants to build-in this into the fabric of how they work. What would be your first steps in engaging with them and identifying where they have needs in part of that discovery process? LAUREN: In human-centered design, the discovery process occurs very early in a project. This is where you are working hand in hand with your client to figure out what their core needs are and how you can help them solve those core needs. And this is important to do because it's not always obvious what those needs are. You might get a contract to work on something very specific, whether it's designing the user interface of a database or it's migrating a website. Those are technical challenges to solve. And those are typically the reason why you get contracted to work with your client. But you still have to do quite a bit of work to figure out what the real ask is there and what is causing the need for them to have hired you in the first place. And so, the first thing I would do if I was walking a client through this is I would start by asking who the most technical senior lead in the organization is. And I would ask how they are managing data today. I think it's really important, to be honest about the state of data in your organization today. The work that we do designing data governance is very forward-thinking in a lot of ways, but you need a foundation to build upon. And I think people need to be honest about the state of that foundation in their organization. So the first thing I would do is find that most-senior data leader who is responsible for making decisions about data and owns the data strategy because that person is tasked with figuring out how to use data in a way that is going to benefit the business writ large. And so, data governance is a big part of what they are tasked to do. And so, in the first instance, what I would do is I would host a workshop with the client where I would ask them to do a few things. They would start by answering two questions: What is my company's mission statement, and how do we use data to fulfill that mission statement? These are very baseline questions. And the first one is so obvious and simple that it might be a little bit off-putting because you're tempted to think, as a senior leader, I already know what my company does. Why do I need to answer it like this? And you need to answer it like this because just like we often get contracts to work on particular technical problems, you'd be surprised by how many senior leaders cannot articulate their company's mission statements. They'll talk to you about their jobs, the tools they use to do their jobs, who they work with on a daily basis. But they still aren't ultimately answering the question of how their job, how the technology they use fulfills a bigger organizational need. And so, without understanding what that organizational need is, you won't be able to articulate how data fulfills that mission. And if you're not able to explain how data fulfills your company's mission, I doubt you can explain which servers your data lives on, which file format it needs to be converted to, who owns which data sets, where they originate, what your DevSecOps processes are. So answering those two questions about the company mission and how data is used to fulfill that mission is the first step. The second thing I would do is ask this senior leader, let's say the chief data officer, to define the data domains within their organization. And when we talk about data domains, we are talking about the areas of the business that are the key areas of interest. This can also be the problem spaces that your organization addresses. It also can have a hand in how your organization is designed as is; in other words, who reports to whom? Do you have sales and marketing within one part of the organization, or are they separate? Do you have customer success as its own wing of the organization separate from product? However your organization is architected, you can draw lines between those different teams, departments, and the domains that your organization works in. And then, most importantly, you want to be looking at who leads each domain and has oversight over the data in that domain. This is a really important aspect of the work because, as mentioned, stewards play a really key role in upholding and executing data governance. You need data stewards across non-technical and technical roles. So defining not just what the data domains are but who leads each domain in a senior role is really important to mapping out who your data stewards will be and to architect your first data governance council. And then, finally, the last thing I would have them do in the first instance is map out a business capability map showing not only what their data domains are but then the sub-domains underneath. So, for example, you have sales, and that can be a business capability. But then, within the sales data domain, you're going to have very different types of sales data. You're going to have quarterly sales, bi-annual sales, inbound leads versus outbound leads. You're going to have very different types of data within that sales data domain. And you want to build those out as much as you possibly can across all of your data domains. If you are a small organization, it's common to have about four to six data domains with subdomains underneath, each of those four to six. But it varies according to each startup and organization and how they are structured. Regardless of how your organization is structured, there's always value in doing those three things. So you start by identifying what your organization does and how data fulfills that goal. You define the core data domains in your organization, including who owns each domain. And then, you take that information about data domains, and you create a capability map showing not just your core data domains but the subdomains underneath because you're going to use all of that information to architect a future data governance program based on what you currently have today. VICTORIA: I think that's a great approach, and it makes a lot of sense. Is that kind of, like, the minimum that people should be doing for a data governance program? Like, what's the essentials to do, like, maybe even your due diligence, say, as a health tech startup company? LAUREN: This is the bare minimum of what I think every organization should do. The specifics of that are different depending on industry, depending on company size, organizational structure. But I wrote this book to be a compass that any organization can use. There's a lot of nuance, especially when we get into the production environment an organization has. There's a lot of nuance there depending on tools, all of that. And so I wanted to write a book that anybody could use regardless of industry size, team size, all of that information. I would say that those are the essential first steps. And I do think that is part of the discovery process is figuring out where you stand today, and no matter how ugly it might be. Because, like we've mentioned, there is more data produced on a daily basis than ever before. And you are not going into this data governance work with a clean slate. You already have work in your organization that you do to manage data. And you really need to know where there are gaps so that you can address those gaps. And so, when we go into the production environment and thinking about what you need to do to be managing data for quality on a regular basis, there are a couple of key things. The first is that you need a plan for how you're going to govern data throughout each lifecycle. So you are very likely not using a piece of data once and never again. You are likely using it through several projects. So you always want to have a plan for governance in production that includes policies on data usage, data archiving, and data destruction. Because you want to make sure that you are fulfilling those principles, whatever they are, throughout each lifecycle because you are managing data as a product. And that brings me to the next thing that I would encourage people working in data governance to consider, which is taking the data mesh principle of managing data as a product. And this is a fundamental mind shift from how big data has been managed in the past, where it was more of a service. There are many detriments to that, given the volume of data that exists today and given how much data environments have changed. So, when we think about data mesh, we're really thinking about four key principles. The first is that you want to manage your data according to specific domains. So you want to be creating a cloud environment that really accounts for the nuance of each data domain. That's why it's so important to define what those data domains are. You're going to not just document what those domains are. You're going to be managing and owning data in a domain-specific way. The second thing is managing data as a product. And so, rather than taking the data as a service approach, you have data stewards who manage their respective data as products within the cloud environment. And so then, for instance, rather than using data about customer interactions in a single business context, you can instead use that data in a range of ways across the organization, and other colleagues can use that data as well. You also want to have data available as a self-service infrastructure. This is really important in data mesh. Because it emphasizes keeping all data on a centralized platform that manages your storage, streaming, pipelines, and anything else, and this is crucial because it prevents data from leaving in disparate systems on various servers. And it also erases or eases the need to build integrations between those different systems and databases. And it also gives each data steward a way to manage their domain data from the same source. And then the last principle for data mesh is ecosystem governance. And really, what we're talking about here is reinforcing the data framework and mission statement that you are using to guide all of your work. It's very common in tech for tech startups to operate according to a bigger vision and according to principles that really establish the rationale for why that startup deserves to exist in the world. And likewise, you want to be doing all of your production work with data according to a bigger framework and mission that you've already shared. And you want to make sure that all of your data is formatted, standardized, and discoverable against equal standards that govern the quality of your data. VICTORIA: That sounds like data is your biggest value as a company and your greatest source of liability [laughs] and in many ways. And, I'm curious, you mentioned just data as a product, if you can talk more about how that fits into how company owners and founders should be thinking about data and the company they're building. LAUREN: So that's a very astute comment about data as a liability. That is absolutely true. And that is one of the reasons why governance is not just nice to have. It's really essential, especially in this day and age. The U.S. has been quite lax when it comes to data privacy and protection standards for U.S. citizens. But I do think that that will change over the next several years. I think U.S. citizens will get more data protections. And that means that organizations are going to have to be more astute about tracking their data and making sure that they are using it in appropriate ways. So, when we're talking to founders who want to consider how to govern data as a product, you're thinking about data stewards taking on the role of product managers and using data in ways that benefits not just them and their respective domains but also giving it context and making it available to the wider business in a way that it was not available before. So if you are architecting your data mesh environment in the cloud, what you might be able to do is create various domains that exist on their own little microservice environments. And so you have all of these different domains that exist in one environment, but then they all connect to this bigger data mesh catalog. And from the catalog, that is where your colleagues across the business can access the data in your domain. Now, you don't want to necessarily give free rein for anybody in your organization to get any data at any time. You might want to establish guardrails for who is able to access which data and what those parameters are. And the data as a product mindset allows you to do that because it gives you, as the data steward/pseudo pm, the autonomy to define how and when your data is used, rather than giving that responsibility to a third-party colleague who does not have that context about the data in your domain. VICTORIA: I like that about really giving the people who have the right context the ability to manage their product and their data within their product. That makes a lot of sense to me. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design-driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: What is it like to really bring in this culture of design-thinking into an organization that's built a product around data? LAUREN: It can be incredibly hard. I have found that folks really vary in their approach to this type of work. I think many people that I talk to have tried doing data governance to some degree in the past, and, for various reasons, it was not successful. So as a result, they're very hesitant to try again. I think also for many technical leaders, if they're in CIO, CDO, CTO roles, they are not used to design thinking or to doing human-centered design work. That's not the ethos that was part of the tech space for a very long time. It was all about the technology, building what you could, experimenting and tinkering, and then figuring out the user part later. And so this is a real fundamental mindset shift to insist on having a vision for how data benefits your business before you start investing money and people into building different data pipelines and resources. It's also a fundamental shift for everyone in an organization because we, in society writ large, are taught to believe that data is the responsibility of one person or one team. And we just can't afford to think like that anymore. There is too much data produced and ingested on a daily basis for it to fall to one person or one team. And even if you do have a technical team who is most adept at managing the cloud environment, the data architecture, building the new models for things like fraud detection, that's all the purview of maybe one team that is more technical. But that does not mean that the rest of the organization doesn't have a part to play in defining the standards for data that govern everything about the technical environment. And I think a big comparison we can make is to security. Many of us… most of us, even if we work in tech, are not cybersecurity experts. But we also know that employees are the number one cause of breaches at organizations. There's no malintent behind that, but people are most likely to expose company data and cause a breach from within the company itself. And so organizations know that they are responsible for creating not just secure technical environments but educating their employees and their workforce on how to be stewards of security. And so, even at my company, we run constant tests to see who is going to be vulnerable to phishing? Who is going to click on malicious links? They run quarterly tests to assess how healthy we are from a cybersecurity perspective. And if you click on a phishing attempt and you fall for it, you are directed to a self-service education video that you have to complete, going over the aspects of this phishing test, what made it malicious. And then you're taught to educate yourself on what to look for in the future. We really need to be doing something very similar with data. And it doesn't mean that you host a two-hour training and then never talk about data again. You really need to look at ways to weave data governance into the fabric of your organization so that it is not disruptive to anybody's day. It's a natural part of their day, and it is part of working at your organization. Part of your organizational goals include having people serve as data stewards. And you emphasize that stewardship is for everyone, not just the people in the technology side of the business. VICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's something to be said for having more people involved in the data process and how that will impact just the quality of your data and the inclusivity of what you're building to bring those perspectives together. LAUREN: I agree. And that's the real goal. And I think this is, again, something that's actually easier for startups to do because startups are naturally more nimble. They find out what works, what doesn't work. They're willing to try things. They have to be willing to try things. Because, to use a really clichéd phrase, if they're not innovating, then they're going to get stale and go out of business. But the other benefit that I think startups have when they're doing this work is the small size. Yes, you don't have the budget or team size of a company like JP Morgan, that is enormous, or a big bank. But you still have an opportunity to really design a culture, an organizational culture that puts data first, regardless of role. And then you can architect the structure of every role according to that vision. And I think that's a really exciting opportunity for companies, especially if they are selling data or already giving data as a product in some way. If they're selling, you know, data as a product services, this is a really great approach and a unique approach to solving data governance and making it everyone's opportunity to grow their own roles and work smarter. VICTORIA: Right. And when it's really the core of your business, it makes sense to pay more attention to that area [laughs]. It's what makes it worthwhile. It's what makes potential investors know that you're a real company who takes things seriously. [laughs] LAUREN: That's true. That's very true. VICTORIA: I'm thinking, what questions...do you have any questions for me? LAUREN: I'm curious to know, when you talk to thoughtbot clients, what are the main aspects of data that they struggle with? I hear a variety of reasons for data struggles when I talk to clients, when I talk to people on the tech side, either as engineers or architects. I'm curious to hear what the thoughtbot community struggles with the most when it comes to managing big data. VICTORIA: I think, in my experience, in the last less than a year that I've been with thoughtbot, one challenge which is sort of related to data...but I think for many small companies or startups they don't really have an IT department per se. So, like, what you mentioned early on in the discovery process as, like, who is the most senior technical person on your team? And that person may have little to no experience managing an IT operations group. I think it's really bringing consulting from the ground up for an organization on IT operations, data management, user and access management. Those types of policies might just be something they hadn't considered before because it's not in their background and experience. But maybe once they've gotten set up, I think the other interesting part that happens is sometimes there's just data that's just not being managed at all. And there are processes and bits and pieces of code in app that no one really knows what they are, who they're used for, [laughs] where the data goes. And then, you know, the connections between data. So everything that you're mentioning that could happen when you don't do data governance, where it can slow down deployment processes. It can mean that you're giving access to people who maybe shouldn't have access to production data. It can mean that you have vulnerabilities in your infrastructure. That means someone could have compromised your data already, and you just don't know about it. Just some of the issues that we see related to data across the spectrum of people in their lifecycle of their startups. LAUREN: That makes total sense, I think, especially when you are in a startup. If you're going by the typical startup model, you have that business-minded founder, and then you likely have a more technical co-founder. But we, I think, make the assumption that if you are, quote, unquote, "technical," you, therefore, know how to do anything and everything about every system, every framework, every type of cloud environment. And we all know that that's just not the case. And so it's easy to try to find the Chief Technology Officer or the Chief Information Officer if one exists and to think, oh, this is the right person for the job. And they might be the most qualified person given the context, but that still doesn't mean that they have experience doing this work. The reality is that very few people today have deep hands-on experience making decisions about data with the volume that we see today. And so it's a new frontier for many people. And then, on top of that, like you said as well, it's really difficult to know where your data lives and to track it. And the amount of work that goes into answering those very basic questions is enormous. And that's why documentation is so important. That's why data lineage in your architecture is so important. It really gives you a snapshot of which data lives where, how it's used. And that is invaluable in terms of reducing technical debt. VICTORIA: I agree. And I wonder if you have any tips for people facilitating conversations in their organization about data governance. What would you tell them to make it less scary and more fun, more appealing to work on? LAUREN: I both love and hate the term data governance. Because it's a word that you say, and whether you are technical or not, many people tune out as soon as they hear it because it is, in a way, a scary word. It makes people think purely of compliance, of being told what they can't do. And that can be a real challenge for folks. So I would say that if you are tasked with making a data governance program across your organization, you have to invest in making it real for people. You have to sell them on stewardship by articulating what folks will gain from serving as stewards. I think that's really critical because we are going to be asking folks to join a cause that they're not going to understand why it affects them or why it benefits them at first. And so it's really your job to articulate not only the benefits to them of helping to set up this data stewardship work but also articulating how data governance will help them get better at their jobs. I also think you have to create a culture where you are not only encouraging people to work across party lines, so to speak, to work across silos but to reward them for doing so. You are, especially in the early months, asking a lot of people who join your data stewardship initiatives and your data governance council you're asking them to build something from the ground up, and that's not easy work. So I think any opportunity you can come up with to reward stewards in the form of bonuses or in terms of giving them more leeway to do their jobs more of a title bump than they might have had otherwise. Giving them formal recognition for their contributions to data governance is really essential as well. Because then they see that they are rewarded for contributing to the thought leadership that helps the data governance move forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious, what is your favorite way to be rewarded at work, Lauren? LAUREN: So I am a words person. When we talk about love languages, one of them is words of affirmation. And I would say that is the best way to quote, unquote, "reward me." I save emails and screenshots of text messages and emails that have really meant a lot to me. If someone sends me a handwritten card that really strikes a chord, I will save that card for years. My refrigerator is filled with holiday cards and birthday cards, even from years past. And so any way to recognize people for the job they're doing and to let someone know that they're seen, and their work is seen and valued really resonates with me. I think this is especially important in remote environments because I love working from home, and I am at home alone all day. And so, especially if you are the only person of your kind, of your role on your team, it's very easy to feel insular and to wonder if you're hitting the mark, if you're doing a good job. I think recognition, whether verbally or on Slack, of a job well done it really resonates with me. And that's a great way to feel rewarded. VICTORIA: I love that. And being fully remote with thoughtbot, I can feel that as well. We have a big culture of recognizing people. At least weekly, we do 15Five as a tool to kind of give people high-fives across the company. LAUREN: Yep, Steampunk does...we use Lattice. And people can submit praise and recognition for their colleagues in Lattice. And it's hooked up to Slack. And so then, when someone submits positive feedback or a kudos to a colleague in Lattice, then everyone sees it in Slack. And I think that's a great way to boost morale and give people a little visibility that they might not have gotten otherwise, especially because we also do consulting work. So we are knee-deep in our projects on a daily basis, and we don't always see or know what our colleagues are working on. So little things like that go a long way towards making people feel recognized and valued as part of a bigger company. But I'm also curious, Victoria, what's your favorite way to get rewarded and recognized at work? VICTORIA: I think I also like the verbal. I feel like I like giving high-fives more than I like receiving them. But sometimes also, like, working at thoughtbot, there are just so many amazing people who help me all throughout the day. I start writing them, and then I'm like, well, I have to also thank this person, and then this person. And then I just get overwhelmed. [laughs] So I'm trying to do more often so I don't have a backlog of them throughout the week and then get overwhelmed on Friday. LAUREN: I think that's a great way to do it, and I think it's especially important when you're in a leadership role. Something that I'm realizing more and more as I progress in my career is that the more senior you are, the more your morale and attitude sets the tone for the rest of the team. And that's why I think if you are in a position to lead data governance, your approach to it is so crucial to success. Because you really have to get people on board with something that they might not understand at first, that they might resent it first. This is work that seems simple on the surface, but it's actually very difficult. The technology is easy. The people are what's hard. And you really have to come in, I think, emphasizing to your data stewards and your broader organization, not just what governance is, because, frankly, a lot of people don't care. But you really have to make it tangible for them. And you have to help them see that governance affects everyone, and everyone can have a hand in co-creating it through shared standards. I think there's a lot to be learned from the open-source community in this regard. The open-source community, more than any other I can think of, is the model of self-governance. It does not mean that it's perfect. But it does mean that people from all roles, backgrounds have a shared mission to build something from nothing and to make it an initiative that other people will benefit from. And I think that attitude is really well-positioned for success with data governance. VICTORIA: I love that. And great points all around on how data governance can really impact an organization. Are there any final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: The biggest takeaway I would say is to be thoughtful about how you roll out data governance in your organization. But don't be scared if your organization is small. Again, it's very common for people to think my business is too small to really implement governance. We don't have the budget for, you know, the AWS environment we might need. Or we don't have the right number of people to serve as stewards. We don't actually have many data domains yet because we're so new. And I would say start with what you have. If you are a business in today's day and age, I guarantee that you have enough data in your possession to start building out a data governance program that is thoughtful and mission-oriented. And I would really encourage everyone to do that, regardless of how big your organization is. And then the other takeaway I would say is, if you remember nothing else about data governance, I would say to remember that you automate your standards. Your standards for data quality, data destruction, data usage are not divorced from your technical team's production environments; it's the exact opposite. Your standards should govern your environment, and they should be a lighthouse when you are doing that work. And so you always want to try to integrate your standards into your production environment, into your ETL pipelines, into your DevSecOps. That is where the magic happens. Keeping them siloed won't work. And so I'd love for people, if you really enjoyed this episode and the conversation resonated with you, too, get a copy of the book. It is my first book. And I was really excited to work with the Pragmatic Programmers on it. So if readers go to pragprog.com, they can get a copy of the book directly through the publisher. But the book is also available at Target, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and local bookstores. So I am very grateful as a first-time author for any and all support. And I would really also love to hear from thoughtbot clients and podcast listeners what you thought of the book because version two is not out of the question. VICTORIA: Well, looking forward to it. Thank you again so much, Lauren, for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Lauren Maffeo.

Jasper (William) Cartwright is a Freelance Producer, Podcaster, Actor, and Motion Capture & Performance Capture Performer. Chad talks to Jasper about his podcast Three Black Halflings, which is committed to discussing diversity and inclusion within fantasy, sci-fi, and nerdy culture from the perspective of three people of color, what it's like to be in the space, and why representation is super important. Follow Jasper (William) Cartwright on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasper-cartwright-217b72113/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/JW_Cartwright). Check out his website at jasperwcartwright.com (https://www.jasperwcartwright.com/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program. We'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today. JORDYN: Thanks for having us. DAWN: Yeah, glad to be here. VICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right? JORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon. JORDYN: Wonderful. VICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round? JORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product. VICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot? DAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time. And we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage. It's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well. VICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right? DAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business? It's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process. VICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP. JORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward. You know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia. He was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing. You know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it? VICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today? DAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders. So you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. INTRO MUSIC: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jasper William-Cartwright, Game Master for hire, Actor, Creative Consultant, Podcaster, Co-Host of The Performance Capture Podcast, and Co-Host of one of my favorite podcasts, Three Black Halflings. Jasper, thank you so much for joining me. JASPER: Hey, no, thank you so much for having me. And, man, with that intro, I almost feel... CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: I almost felt...I was like, oh, I feel cool. Those are some fun things. [laughs] CHAD: I almost started with a Heeello robots. JASPER: [laughs] CHAD: But it doesn't really have the alliteration that hello Halflings does, so... JASPER: Sure. I don't even know how the hello Halfling started. Like, I'm going to have to go back and listen to some of the earlier episodes again because I genuinely have no idea how it happened. And now it's gotten to a point where it's unyieldy. Every episode, I feel like I have to get a little bit further and a little bit higher. And I'm like, this can't be good for people's ears, so, [laughs] yeah. CHAD: So I know what the show is, but in your own words, what is the Three Black Halflings Podcast? JASPER: The Three Black Halflings Podcast is a show which is committed to talking about diversity and inclusion within fantasy and sci-fi, and sort of anything that nerdy culture touches, we try to cover it from the perspective of three people of color, what it's like to be in the space, and why representation is super important. CHAD: I want to talk about the origin of the show and how you got started. But I was introducing someone to the show previously because I try to tell everybody I can about the show. [laughter] I've noticed in the beginning when you started, there was a lot of low-hanging fruit, like, we can dive into this stuff and educate people. And over time, you've introduced actual play where you're playing Dungeons & Dragons on the show. And I think it's changed a little bit, and it's still great. But I always also recommend people go back to the beginning. And I think a lot of the episodes are sort of timeless. They're not about the news of the day. They're diving into particular topics and discussing either the impact or the problems that they have or how to play them better. JASPER: Yeah, definitely. I think you're absolutely right. It's been a weird thing where because we've become more popular and we're kind of more in tune with the TTRPG space; I think that typically what has happened for us is that we've spent less time really digging around for, you know, what's some stuff... all the things that we can explore. And we're a lot more kind of like, what's the beat of the moment? If that makes sense. And I think that's why we haven't done as many episodes like that. And also, just because we...I just think that the audience is changing. And the way that people consume our content is changing. It tends to go in cycles for us where we'll do a batch of very topical episodes then we'll do more really nitty gritty kind of game design episodes. And so I think a lot of it does depend on the sort of moment, what's going on. There are still a bunch of episodes that we have planned. And obviously, we have the Halfling University series which is coming out currently, which is a more retrospective look back on poignant things throughout the history of nerd [inaudible 3:11] and nerd culture. So I like to think there's a good variety on there. CHAD: Obviously the show, especially I think when it started, had a very heavy focus on Dungeons & Dragons, which I love. People who know me [laughs] know that I love Dungeons & Dragons. JASPER: [laughs] CHAD: And I've been playing it for a long time. And as someone playing it since I was a teenager, I didn't realize until I got older and learned a lot more...and certainly, the show went a long way to sort of educating me about how not only the origins of some of the tropes of fantasy and Dungeons & Dragons but just in general how to have inclusive play. When you're playing with a group of people, and to bring it back to a non-Dungeons & Dragons specific thing, this is true, I think, in any group of people. When you're surrounded by a group of people who look the same as you, are from the same area, have the same experiences, you don't realize what's missing from that table, and that's true in our companies, and it's true around a TTRPG table too. JASPER: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that's the same for a lot of us. I remember doing a big post after I'd been doing the show for about six months, and it was just like, I was very open when I started the show that a lot of what I wanted to talk about I wanted it to be a safe space for me to explore some of these things. Because I grew up in a very White middle-class area, and therefore I had a lot of the blind spots that I would see my friends of color call out my White friends for or whatever it may be. And so I was like, okay, it's time for me to educate myself. And I wanted to do it in a safe space, in a place where I could learn from great people. Obviously, we had other co-hosts of the show who are fantastic people, but we had things like sensitivity consultants and people like that come on. I always like to shout out James Mendez Hodes, who, if you ever want to do a bit of a deep dive into fantasy...and you said, Chad, the historical basis for some of the stuff that we use, and he wrote some really incredible stuff. And so a lot of it was about me trying to educate myself as well and kind of put in that work. I thought there was a value there in doing it in an open forum in sort of saying, hey, I'm a person of color, and I'm also trying to figure this out, you know what I mean? CHAD: Mm-hmm. JASPER: Because I think that a lot of the time, the barrier for anyone who doesn't belong to a minority group is like, oh, man, I don't want to burden someone else with my own understanding of this thing, and I don't want to ask the wrong questions. Or maybe I don't even know where to begin in educating myself. And so there was something about the three of us and me particularly kind of being very open about the fact that we were learning about this too and that there might be things that...mistakes or things might slightly be out of place but that we have that openness and willingness to learn. And I think that in today's internet culture where everyone is so kind of reaction-based, it just felt important to me that we had a space where we could sit in and talk about stuff and really be open with each other in a way that we knew we'd all be able to shake hands and be like, cool, that was a good session or whatever [laughs] it was today, and not be like, I hate you, you know what I mean? Because someone had made a mistake, or misspoke, or something like that. And I think you're absolutely right. It's something I've started to do a bit more of recently, which is doing diversity and inclusion talks and coaching for companies because I think a lot of the lessons that I've learned through doing this show, especially around things like language and how you set up a work environment to suit people of color and more generally, minorities, it's a slightly continuous pursuit in the sense that you always have to be kind of open and learning. And I think also it provides a...what I think is best about it is that it provides such richness to your work environment. We always say on Three Black Halflings that we want you to take these things and use them to enhance your game. Like you're saying, if you have the same people with the same experiences all the time and that's all you ever hear, then, of course, you're going to get a pretty one-sided experience. And then, if you expand that out to include people from halfway across the world who have a very different experience, they're going to see things differently. And I can almost guarantee there'll be a problem that you and your team have been stuck on for like months, and someone from a different perspective will come in and be like, boom, there's the problem, or that's how we get around it because they have a different frame of reference to you. And so I always try to...it sounds really awful to say sell it, [laughs] you know, not trying to sell diversity and inclusion, but I always want to try and go further by saying it's not just about getting different faces in the door. It's about enriching the work that you do and allowing your team to do the best work that they can. Just the quantity of difference between the kinds of things like games that I used to run, you know, to link it back to Dungeons & Dragons, versus the games that I run now, just having had this wealth of influence from other people and different experiences is incredible. And I think it holds true for every element of my work. So I work as a producer a lot in lots of creative fields as opposed to just podcasting. And it's improved tenfold just by having a diverse group of people that I draw from their experiences in my pursuits. So I think it makes a big difference. CHAD: I think it's the idea that you wanted a safe space, and so you created a public podcast on the internet. [laughter] JASPER: Yeah, I can see how that sounds now. [laughter] CHAD: I assume that you've had to navigate being in public spaces talking about diversity, inclusion. I'm sure that that has been difficult at times. JASPER: Yeah, for sure. I think just to clarify that as well, [laughs] because I am definitely aware of how it sounds, I've always been a very, like, I don't care attitude, you know what I mean? CHAD: Yeah. JASPER: In the sense that I felt like I needed what I was going to make, if that makes sense. What, I guess, I meant by a safe space is I wanted people to have the safe space of listening to it. I was getting the safe space as far as I was concerned because podcasts aren't a reactionary medium, which is lovely. So thank God your audience isn't sat here just saying everything that you said wrong and correcting you. People are probably shouting at me for stuff that I've said already on this episode. [chuckles] So it's definitely a fine line, like you said, to put something out on the internet. It's a very, very public thing to do. But it definitely just felt like, for me, creating somewhere where people could just disappear a little bit and encounter these things in a way where they're not going to be called out, or they're not going to be kind of threatened. There's no risk of cancellation or whatever if you say the wrong thing or whatever it is. It felt important. And yeah, we've had to deal with...I will say this; it's kind of tricky to sum up the things that we've dealt with because I think a lot of stuff is still so systemic in the sense that just even down to the opportunities that you get and things like that where you kind of go like, huh, they started in this space like two months ago, and they have twice the followers we do. And they're getting loads of money for doing these streams. [laughs] And you're going to go, like, hold on, what's going on here? CHAD: Yeah, there are three people on this show. They have ten times the Patreons that we do. [laughter] JASPER: Yeah, exactly. CHAD: Why might that be? [laughter] JASPER: Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. And that's one side of it. And then, to be honest, the most it's happened...and this is quite a recent thing, which I don't even think we've really spoken about on the show was the reaction to the...so for anyone who doesn't know Dungeons & Dragons, there was a recent controversy where Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast threatened to repeal part of the license, which allowed creators to freely kind of use elements, not all of them, but some elements of the Dungeons & Dragons game and the Dungeons & Dragons IP for content basically. And they wanted to repeal it, and they wanted to start bringing in more checks and balances in terms of what you could and couldn't do. And they wanted to start taking cuts of the profits and all this kind of thing. And anyway, the reaction was, as you can probably imagine, not great. Us content creators are ostensibly the lifeblood of this game, especially in terms of its online presence. So we ended up getting the opportunity to interview one of the executive producers at Wizards of the Coast, and we put it on our YouTube. And it's hilariously one of the most viewed pieces of content that the Three Black Halflings has, full stop. And the reaction is so strange because you have people that get super angry at this guy for being corporate, and this and that, and the other. And we were like, okay, that's fine. So that was the first wave of reaction. Then it was like, he's a racist against White people. And we were like, whoa, okay. And then it turned into you're racist because you didn't call him out for being racist against White people. And then, eventually, I think it just found its way to the trolls who are now just being openly racist about it. So it's a very strange dynamic of seeing that play out in terms of it literally depending on the amount of people that listened to it, do you know what I mean? It didn't hit troll numbers yet, like; it needed to be more popular to hit troll numbers. So part of me does wonder if we just haven't quite got to peak troll numbers [laughter] with the main podcast. I'm sort of readying myself with a spear and a shield, so I'm like, okay, trolls are coming. CHAD: It's like a double-edged sword. You want to be more popular but at the same time, hmm. Part of what I'm getting at is I think the work you do, even if you take sort of systemic racism out of it, the reaction to diversity and inclusion topics out of it, it's not easy to be an independent content creator, then you add that on to it. So how do you keep going? You've been doing it for three years now. What's your day-to-day like? How do you keep going at it? JASPER: I mean, the rewards are just huge. I got to go to the Dungeons & Dragons premiere the other day. I went to a party in the Tower of London and had people coming up to me. Everyone knew who I was at the Tower of London at a party in the Tower of London. And when I say Tower of London, I want to clarify that it wasn't a function room attached to the Tower of London. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: We were in the Tower of London. I was having champagne, sipping it next to Henry VIII's armor. CHAD: [laughs] Amazing. JASPER: It was absolutely wild and being there and people coming up to me and being like, "We love what Three Black Halflings does. We think it's a really important voice in the community. And you guys absolutely like..." you know, because I was sort of like, oh God, I can't believe we're here or whatever. And people would be like, "No, no, you absolutely deserve to be here. It's so important that you guys are here." So I think that has a huge impact. People in the community, the way that we've been embraced there's so many shows and so many people who are creating content that are working so hard who don't have nearly the platform that we have. And I think that is, A, a testament to us and the hard work that we put in. But it's also a testament to just how important what we're doing within the community is. And I still don't really think there is a facsimile for Three Black Halflings in the industry in the sense that we're a talk show. We talk about heavy topics a lot of the time, but we do it with a smile on our face. And we try to laugh as much as humanly possible, you know what I mean? Because the whole premise of this show was that Black joy can be a form of protest. So we wanted to be like, hey, we can talk about serious stuff without having to cry and feel crushingly horrible about it, you know. [laughs] And I think I guess that's how I feel whenever I feel like I want to cry or feel crushingly horrible about my workload or how hard it is to make the show is that I go, this is kind of the point, you know what I mean? This is why we got into it because I think that this is going to make it easier for someone else to do the same thing or someone else do something even better, and that, for me, is incredibly rewarding. But I will caveat all of that by saying we've started to generate some money through ad revenue and Patreon, everything like that. And it's actually...this show has given me the opportunity to leave my full-time day job, which was still kind of creative. I was working in animation before this. And I loved that job, but now I get to be my own boss. And it's been a really steep learning curve learning how to do work-life balance when you're your own boss because you're like, I could really disrespect my time here, you know what I mean? [laughter] I can get a lot done today. And I go, no, I have to spend time with my fiancée. I have to eat food. I have to sleep. I have to drink water. I think a lot of the process has been about that. And I think, especially recently, I've gotten much better at kind of giving myself that work-life balance, and that makes it a lot easier for me to carry on. Because I feel like we've gotten to a point where I can be honest with the community as well and say, "Hey, we're having a late episode this week because there are some kinks with the edit," or something. [laughs] And people are just like, "Yeah, it's fine." So I was actually having a consultancy session for someone yesterday. And one of the big things I kept saying to them was, as a content creator, you have to realize the world is not going to crash and burn if you don't hold the standards that you've set for yourself. Because the chances are your audience has much, much lower expectations, and that's not because they don't think you can do it. It's just because they understand that you're human, and they want you to do well, you know what I mean? So if ever I feel like, oh no, Three Black Halflings has really messed up, I'm like, this episode sounds terrible. And we put it out and, ugh, and I'm there twisting myself into knots and making myself feel horrible. And then I go to the Discord, and everyone's like, "Oh, that sounded a bit janky. Oh, well, I'm sure they'll sort it out." [laughs] It's just like, it's absolutely fine. So taking pressure off of yourself, I think, is something that I think is really important if you're trying to pursue, especially if you're trying to start out in pursuit of something like this because, yeah, it's super easy to drown yourself [laughs] in all of the kind of stress and anxiety about putting content out. CHAD: You mentioned ads, and you mentioned Patreon. I think it was...was it last year that you joined a podcast network? JASPER: Ooh, it would have been a year before. CHAD: A year. JASPER: So I've been with Headgum, I think, for nearly two years now. CHAD: Wow. What sort of prompted that, and what does being part of a network give you as a podcast? JASPER: Hell yeah. Joining a network ostensibly is just like joining a kind of family of other shows. I guess the closest equivalent really is sort of having your show picked up by Netflix or a broadcaster or something like that. It's sort of like you're bringing your show to that family. And then the most common thing...every network is obviously slightly different and will have different kinds of support structures that they offer certain shows depending on the money they generate, all that kind of thing. But the most common one is effectively; you are now in a group that can all support each other and can all benefit each other by doing ad swaps because ad swaps typically is the absolute best way to improve podcast performance, mostly just because the user journey is super simple. It's like, hey, do you like the sound of this podcast? Well, the link to it is in your description. You have to click twice. You have to go into the description, click on that link, and then hit subscribe, and you're done. That's all you have to do, and it will be there. And you know it'll automatically tee up in your feed and all that kind of stuff. So things like pod swaps and everything like that are by far the most effective for spreading the word about your show. And it also just helps you really hit specific target audiences where you go; we have great metrics that we can see of like, the average age of our listeners, how they identify gender-wise, music they listen to typically, what the average Three Black Halflings listens to. I think when you roll all of that information together as a part of a network, you have a huge bank of data, which they can then use to kind of market you in the best way and push you out in the best way. And then, on top of that, most networks will have some sort of ad revenue like sort of system or tech, I guess, is probably the best way of putting it. And certainly, for some networks, they almost run like tech companies, how I imagine tech companies run. You're probably about to tell me, "A lot better." [laughs] CHAD: Don't worry about it. [laughs]. JASPER: But, for instance, Headgum has Gumball. So Gumball is their ad sales sort of site, which has software which allows you to basically...everyone can go, and you can book ads just by looking at the podcast, seeing how many downloads it has; again, it has a breakdown of demographics and things like that that you can look at to see if that will marry up with whatever product you're pushing out. And then that will automatically set up a prompt for me to then read the script, upload it, and then that will put a dynamic ad in the middle of an episode, however many episodes until a certain amount of impressions are delivered. So, again, that will be very unique and different depending on which network you join. But ostensibly, I'd say those are the two main things is pooling of resources amongst a family of different podcasts and then some sort of promise of ad revenue or ad sales. Most of them also have an ad sales team where they'll go and hunt out more specific spots for your show. So, for instance, we just got sponsored by, I think it was Penguin or maybe Random House. Actually, maybe it's Random House who are publishing three little additional books to go in and around the Dungeons & Dragons movie. So we just did a little ad for them. And that was, again, the sales team kind of going out and being like, oh, we can see that you're looking for advertising places. Why don't you come and advertise on this Dungeons & Dragons podcast? [laughs] So yeah, stuff like that, I think. Those were, I'd say, the main areas, and then it'll kind of depend...some podcast networks will help with editing. They'll have almost like a house style. So they'll sort of...they'll say, oh, we'll do the editing for you because we want to marry up all the shows so that they have a similar sound CHAD: Is Headgum doing some editing for you and not on other episodes, or…? JASPER: No. Headgum pretty much does...one of the best things [laughs] about it is we have an incredible sound designer; shout out to Daniel. He's actually one of the sound designers of God of War, if you can believe that. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: He's won several awards for sound design. He basically has almost like a little side hustle, which is him and a group of his friends who do podcast editing for Headgum. He does our main shows and our actual play shows. They were like, "Oh yeah, they can help you out with your actual play shows." And then me, as the incredibly stressed-out producer that was also having to listen to multiple hours of my own voice a week, went, "What about the main show as well?" CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: And they were like, "Yeah, fine." [laughter] I was like, "Thank you," [laughs] because I can't bear listening to myself. I don't mind editing, and I'm not bad at it. But listening to my own voice is not on my list of to-dos. [laughs] CHAD: It sounds like, overall, that being part of a network has been positive for you. JASPER: Yeah, hugely. CHAD: That's awesome. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. CHAD: Let's talk about...I'm making the assumption...I didn't dwell too much at the beginning of the episode that people understand what Dungeons & Dragons is, but maybe that's too big of an assumption. But it just seems so much more popular now [laughs] than it ever had before. So I feel like I can at least say Dungeons & Dragons to people, and people are like, even if I don't actually know what it's like to play, I know what it is, at least now. [laughs] JASPER: Yeah, yeah, you got an idea of what it is. Yeah, for sure. [laughs] CHAD: But let's maybe, at this point, take a little bit of a step back. And Dungeons & Dragons is more popular than it has ever been before. I think that that's really exciting for creators like you because it must feel like there's more opportunity than ever. JASPER: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I think that...so this actually, I think really ties into something that I've been doing a little bit of research on, which is...I can't say too much at this point, but I'm putting together a convention. Part of the idea behind this convention was that I've noticed there's a really big trend towards experience-based entertainment. We love movies. We love going out to bowling, all that kind of stuff. But real full immersion-based experiences, I think, are...post-lockdown, everyone's like, yes, give me all of that. I've been cooped up in a house. I want to be whisked away as far away as possible. And so I do think that is part of the reason why Dungeons & Dragons has started to become even organically more and more popular. Because I just think the idea that instead of, I don't know, just sitting around on a Friday with some friends talking, or just watching a movie, or whatever it may be, that you can kind of with your friends go off and take part in something that feels epic and larger than life and really allows you to abandon for just a couple of hours some of the strains and pressures on your life. I think, again, post-lockdown, that just feels like such an appetizing thing [laughs] to be able to do. And I just think with then the general acceptance of nerdiness as mainstream culture; people are just a lot more willing to be like, well, if I'm going to watch a movie with a dude who has a suit made entirely of iron and says really corny lines and shoots laser beams out of his chest, I probably could be okay with pretending to be a goblin for half an hour. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: Whereas I think before, people would have been really like, no, no, no, we don't do that. I only watch, I don't know, Kubrick movies or something. Do you know what I mean? CHAD: Yeah. JASPER: Like, that's their form of entertainment. CHAD: Yeah, that trend really resonates with me. Even before the pandemic, escape rooms and that kind of thing were becoming really popular. JASPER: Yes. CHAD: I mean, there are escape rooms everywhere now. [laughs] JASPER: One of the things that I found out as I was coming up with the idea for this convention...I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he basically owns an event space, which has a cinema in it, and it also has a little theater. And he ran over; I think it was last summer, a "Guardians of the Galaxy" themed kind of experience where you walked around, and you got to meet some of the characters and stuff like that. And then next door in that building, they were showing the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie. And despite the fact that the experience was three times as expensive as the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie at the cinema, that experience sold out almost instantly. And the "Thor: Love and Thunder" movie was struggling to get people on the seats; you know what I mean? But I was like, but "Thor: Love and Thunder" is a Guardians film, you know what I mean? All of them are there. It's ostensibly a "Guardians of the Galaxy" movie, and yet people are going to see a "Guardians of the Galaxy" experience, which I don't even know if it was like an official thing...rather than seeing the movie of it. So I just think, yeah, like you said, this trend for escape rooms and all that kind of stuff just really resonated with me that I was like, yeah, that's...like, if I had to choose, if I was in a privileged position and could afford to go to that thing, I'd be like, pssh, yeah, I'd probably go to the "Guardians of the Galaxy" experience rather than just, eh, I don't have to watch the film. I could probably get it on Disney Plus in like two weeks, so...[laughs] CHAD: Yeah. Have you ever been to a secret cinema in London? JASPER: Yes. I did "Top Gun: Maverick" Up here in Manchester. CHAD: [laughs] I went to the "Star Wars" one a few years ago. JASPER: Nice. How was that? CHAD: I guess, actually, it would have been five years ago. It was amazing. So for people who don't know, secret cinema is you're ostensibly going to see a movie, [laughs] but they build up an entire experience with improv actors themed to the movie that you're seeing, and you don't know where it is. It's technically a secret. They send you the location of it. You go there, and you're whisked away into the world of the movie. JASPER: Yeah, I did a "28 Days Later" one. [laughter] Yeah, that was one... CHAD: Horrifying. JASPER: Yeah, that one was a little much, honestly. [laughs] I was like, I love this movie, but I don't feel safe sat in this cinema [laughs] because I've just walked through three fields filled with zombies and I ran for half of it. [laughs] So, I don't know, I was like, my heart was still racing as I sat down to watch the movie, which I think in many ways, did enhance the experience because I was sort of looking over my shoulder for half of it. [laughs] CHAD: And when people who haven't ever actually seen Dungeons & Dragons played before, I often describe it as we're just telling a story together. Or maybe if they're a little less intimidated by improv because some people are into it, it's like an improv show where you can basically do anything you want or say what you want to do. And then you roll the dice to see whether it actually happens or not. And that's really at the base level all it is. JASPER: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [laughs] CHAD: And I think you're right; people are more open to that idea of an experience or a game like that than they ever have been before. JASPER: Yeah, for sure. There are so many things that you can kind of fall back on if you're not someone who is super comfortable with improvising or whatever. And I think that's what the game provides is it provides enough structure for you to then just kind of, honestly, because, you know, you do just kind of forget that you're doing it really after about 10 minutes of slight awkwardness when you start with a new group because the game provides you with almost like the fuel. You'll be like, oh, I don't know if I can do this or whatever. And it's like, okay, just go ahead and roll me a d20. And then you roll in that 20, and everyone loses their minds around the table. CHAD: [chuckles] JASPER: And suddenly you're like, okay, I'm in this. I'm the barbarian, and I'm getting angry. And I run in there, and I kick the door down, you know what I mean? And suddenly, you're sat there watching this person who was super nervous five seconds ago stood up on their feet screaming at me as the DM telling me how they eviscerate all these bad guys. So yeah, definitely, the game provides a very good structure for that. CHAD: With this...you mentioned building this experience for a convention. Do you want to talk more about that? JASPER: Yes, I can talk about it in very broad terms. I just can't go into the specifics of when, and the whos, and stuff like that. But ostensibly, the idea was to do a...I got really interested by this idea of reclaiming fantasy. It was kind of like this thing that kept going around in my head. And I was like; I wonder if there's a way that we could see our...again, specifically geared towards minority groups. It's what I know well and a community that I want to continue to serve. And I was like; I wonder if we can create a space where it's specifically for them, explicitly for them in the sense that I think there are a lot of spaces that are explicitly for non-minority groups, you know what I mean? I think a lot of the traditional conventions typically are those things. But I think we get very afraid of creating something where we...people with the purse strings usually go, oh no, you can't exclude people, and I'm like, we're not excluding people. We're just making it very specifically for someone else. And a lot of it was...it then came from the idea of seeing "The Rings of Power" trailer get released. And then the thing that's trending on Twitter is like; there were no black elves, not yes, we've got a black elf, you know what I mean? And I suddenly was like, I really want us to have a space where we can be celebrated in fantasy, et cetera, without having to have that caveated as like seeing it as some sort of diversity hire or whatever. Anyway, this snowballed through going to things like D&D in a Castle and combining it with this idea of reclaiming fantasy of, like, what if we did it inside of like a stately home or a castle? What if we made this event and we really made it that you as a minority can be there and celebrated in the space where you've got, like, Baron, what's his name, on the wall? CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: And it's this White dude from 500 years ago, do you know what I mean? And it's like, I just really loved the idea of a room full of minorities really feeling welcomed and like they were a part of this space, and just realizing minorities we've been around forever, you know what I mean? [laughs] There's never been a point in human history where people with Brown skin haven't been here. We've always been here. So I guess it was just about really realizing that when we sat there watching, I don't know, Pirates of the Caribbean, and there's like two Black people in the swamp. It's like, no, no, no, no, we would have been everywhere, [laughs] do you know what I mean? We would have been everywhere. And we can be celebrated in these spaces too. These don't have to just be White spaces, and they don't just have to be for a very specific group that they have been traditionally for in the past. [laughs] And yeah, the reaction to this sort of pitch, if you will, was overwhelmingly positive. CHAD: That's good. JASPER: And it really took me by surprise, actually, because I was sort of thinking, yeah, I'm really sticking it to them with this pitch. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: And then everyone was like, "Yeah, we love it." And I was like, oh, right. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: Okay, yeah. [laughs] I was sort of doing that, and I had to climb down a little bit and be like, okay, awesome. Let's talk about it. What I think is really exciting about that it's just that I really think that conventions and everything can do more in terms of delivering experience. Like myself and my fiancée went to Comic-Con a couple of years ago. And I remember her feeling like, oh, it was just a little bit flat. And it was just sort of...I thought that there'd be more kind of grandeur to it, almost like there'd be more...it was just other than people cosplaying; there wasn't a lot of theater to the whole thing. It was just like in these massive warehouses, and add a little bit of that theater in, have some of those actors, have some of the music and the sound and everything, really give people a place to go and explore and enjoy exploring. And I kind of keep thinking in my head it's like LARP lite, you know what I mean? CHAD: Yeah. JASPER: It's like LARP still with the kind of commercial interaction that you can still go and meet your favorite people. You can still get signings. You can still get previews of things. You can still buy things that you've been wanting to buy all year and that you can only get when you go to a certain convention, and all of the kind of normal convention tropes but really just explicitly labeling it on the bottle: this is for minority groups. Because I honestly think if we explicitly label it like that as well, we'll start to get away from a lot of the things that have plagued conventions for far too long when it comes to making people feel comfortable in those spaces. And quite often, my biggest tip when it comes to diversity and inclusion with companies as well it's just like, put it on the bowl. Like, if you really believe it, have it front and center. Don't tuck it away in like a D&I bit on your website. Have it there so that everyone can see it. Everyone knows when they come to work with you; this is what you stand for. This is what you believe in, things like that, so... CHAD: That sounds awesome. And it's a really good illustration of the idea which we've talked about on the show in previous episodes is that when you are used to being in the majority all the time, and that is the default, when something is being done that's different than that, it feels like you're losing something. It feels like you're under attack. That's a total natural feeling. JASPER: Yes, yes. CHAD: So it's like, that sounds like a great experience. I would love to experience that, and I'm being excluded because I'm White; that's not fair. But that's coming from a position of you've been in those safe spaces for yourself in a world that's been entirely tailored for you. So you haven't realized that you've had that all along. JASPER: Yeah, absolutely. And the beauty of it is..., and this is where it's even better for people in the majority, which is that we have zero intention of making an unsafe space for anyone because that would be wild. So even the spaces that we create for minorities explicitly will still be safe for you as well, you know what I mean? But I think, like you said, it's that reaction, which, again, I get it completely because, as I mentioned earlier, I was there. I've been there. I've been in a space where I suddenly go, oh, I'm part of the problem, and it feels horrible. Like, it's not nice, and it's a really challenging thing, which you have to be comfortable with, and I think everyone should be comfortable with it. Whether you're a minority or not, everyone has blind spots. Everyone has biases. It's a huge part of human interaction. And honestly, in a modern world with the way that social media is, I don't think you can live without biases and without assumptions because you see new people, thousands of new people every day if you want to just by scrolling on your Twitter feed. So to be in this zen place of just like, I will accept everyone only on their merits, and I will not judge anyone would be impossible and maddening, I think. So it's a perfectly normal thing to exist with those biases. The thing that we have to get better at is going, cool; I've got those biases. Now it's time to let them slide, like, to move them over there and to not get defensive if someone calls them out. Like, that's the trick. That's the magic trick. That's pulling the rabbit out of the hat. That's what you got to get comfortable with. CHAD: Yeah, awesome. Well, I really appreciate the conversation, and I really appreciate you taking the time. I know that you get married in less than a week from now. JASPER: I do. I do get married -- CHAD: So congratulations in advance. JASPER: Thank you so much. Thank you. CHAD: If we could just take a few more minutes at the end to maybe nerd out about the Dungeons & Dragons movie, which I know you went to the premiere for, and I just saw this weekend... JASPER: Oh please, let's do. Absolutely. CHAD: It was funny because I think you've said exactly how I left the movie feeling, which was they captured the spirit of what it's actually...like, it was just fun. And Dungeons & Dragons is fun in a way that is not like "Lord of the Rings" [laughs] or just super serious fantasy, right? JASPER: Yeah, yeah. I can't even think of the last time we had a fantasy movie that was like, you know, other than, I don't know, "Your Highness" or something that was just like, I don't know, yeah, whatever that was, you know what I mean? Something that was like an actual movie and didn't take itself too seriously, yeah. CHAD: Yeah, I'm so happy because you could have easily have seen it, like, no, we need to do something super serious and to compete against "Game of Thrones" and "Lord of the Rings" and all that stuff. And to feel like, you know, this was made by people who get it and represented what I love was really exciting. JASPER: Yeah. And I think that what it did for me is I think it lays the groundwork for them to explore more serious places because now they will have that trust that they understand what it's like to be at the table and how to do that. And then I think this is where the real skill is going to come in for them to curate more of these which is like...that, I think, is the art of a really good DM. They can have you absolutely roaring with laughter one minute and then sobbing in like, you know, and it's like an hour's difference, [laughs] you know what I mean? Between the two places. And that's then the next step for these. But I think this was absolutely the tone they needed to strike for this, especially for this first kind of outing. I think they really needed to say, hey, we get it. We understand what it's like, just displaying purely unhinged actions and things, which I think that's the bit that feels D&D for me is when a character...and I think I won't go into any spoilers, but I think you'll probably know the moment I'm describing when a very clear solution is laid out in front of you in big, green letters, for instance, and you choose to do something truly, truly unhinged and wild. Because that was what you decided you were going to do ahead of time. It's such a D&D thing to do. [laughs] And I loved that. It was one of my favorite moments in the movie. And I just thought that perfectly encapsulates the nature of it and the thing that you don't get to see in "Game of Thrones" or whatever because you don't get the Nat 1s or the Nat 20s, I think in the "Game of Thrones." Everything's like 7 to 12; you know what I mean? CHAD: [laughs] Right. Right. JASPER: Everyone is relatively skilled, so they can't just, like, you know what I mean? You can't have the mountain versus the Viper, and the mountain just trips over a rock and brains himself on the floor. CHAD: [laughs] Right. JASPER: You know what I mean? Because that would be a Nat 1, but that would be ridiculous because the mountain is an incredibly skilled fighter, and therefore, it wouldn't work like that. CHAD: Yeah, yeah. I found myself grinning throughout, aside from the moments where I was laughing, just like, oh, that's...yes. JASPER: [laughs] CHAD: Just the whole thing about planning and how he's a planner. JASPER: Yes. [laughs] CHAD: Oh, that is so D&D. And just at the end, the way that that battle lays out, I just feel like it just captures everyone's act in the six-second increments in a D&D battle. And everything's happening all at once, and that's what that battle was like at the end. JASPER: Yeah. And it also just props for like a really good magic fight. CHAD: [laughs] Right. JASPER: Like, I don't even know what the word is, but we have been convinced for years that Harry Potter had good magic, but no, he doesn't. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: Harry Potter has wand-fu, and it's terrible. It's like; it's not particularly pleasing. It's basically the same as "Star Wars." It's just like a little laser pistol type, piu-piu-piu. CHAD: [laughs] JASPER: That's effectively what Harry Potter becomes. And then to see Bigby's Hand and spells like this be used in the ways, like, it was just so fun. And also, it really teaches the importance of flavoring your attacks and how much life you can bring to a game, to anything, by just adding that little bit more, like, that little bit of extra sauce on top. I think Holger the Barbarian does a perfect job of this in the movie where she's always using improvised weapons, and the way that she fights it's, oh, it's very, very pleasing to watch. And you're sat there going, yeah man, barbarians are so cool. But half the time when you're in a game, you'll just be like, yeah, I run up, and I attack with my axe. It's like, no, give me more, give me more. Tell me how and why and stuff like that. So I agree; I think they did a great job. And I was also just grinning from ear to ear [laughs] during most of it. CHAD: I feel like I could talk to you all day. JASPER: [laughs] CHAD: But I really appreciate it. If folks want to either get in touch with you, we mentioned at the top of the show you are a Game Master for hire, and you do games remotely, right? JASPER: Yes, I do. I do. I do. CHAD: So where are all the places that people can find you, get in touch with you, book you, all that stuff? JASPER: Heck yeah. If anyone knows about my GMing for hire, it's you. [laughter] You had me DM for you for, in total, like, 29 hours in the space of a week. [laughs] CHAD: Yeah. So we brought Jasper and we had the thoughtbot summit where we got the company together in person and so Jasper came and he DMed two sessions with two different groups for us, which was awesome. And then I went to D&D in a Castle, which you mentioned earlier in the show. It's where you go to a castle in the UK and play D&D for three and a half days straight basically. It was an amazing experience and Jasper was an incredible DM. JASPER: Thank you. And if anyone is interested in hiring me as a DM, like I said, I do consultancy, whether it be D&I consultancy or podcast to help you grow podcasts and things like that, or even just get started. Most of that information is on my website which is jasperwcartwright.com. You can find me on all social medias. I'm usually pretty good at responding to people in there, and that is just @JW_Cartwright on all of my social media. So yeah, go follow me, and I've got a bunch of really exciting stuff coming up, so it's a good time to follow me. [laughs] CHAD: Awesome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Jasper (William) Cartwright.

Jordyn Bonds is the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot. Jordyn helps companies validate new product opportunities and reach that first key milestone, from validating an early adopter market to creating a pitch deck to building a prototype, proof of concept, or an MVP launch. Chad talks to Jordyn about what a Director of Product Strategy does, how Jordyn's career has evolved (She got to build madonna.com for the Confessions on the Dance Floor release and tour!!), and finding practices that keep you motivated and inspired to be working towards long-term, large goals. Follow Jordyn on Twitter (https://twitter.com/skybondsor) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/skybondsor/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jordyn Bonds, the Director of Product Strategy at thoughtbot. Jordyn helps companies validate new product opportunities and reach that first key milestone, from validating an early adopter market to creating a pitch deck to building a prototype, proof of concept, or an MVP launch. Jordyn, thank you for joining me not only on this podcast but at thoughtbot. JORDYN: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. CHAD: You joined us in September of this year. And it's been really fun to watch...well, let me say it's always fun to watch people come into the company and begin to digest everything that's there, begin to, like, okay, I can see how this is working, and then to start to make your mark on things. And so thank you for everything you've done so far. And I look forward to seeing everything in the future too. JORDYN: I look forward to it too. It's been a super interesting experience. I think thoughtbot has a really unique culture, and it's been really fun to get on-boarded into it. CHAD: Cool. I'd love to talk a little bit more about that in a bit. But you have joined us as the Director of Product Strategy, which is actually a new position for us in the Ignite team, which is the team that focuses on those early-stage ideas, products, companies. Obviously, if we added the position, we thought it was important. We don't take those things lightly. What led you and made you perfect for that position? JORDYN: [laughs] I think taking something from a nascent notion, whatever that is, an idea for a product or newly identified market opportunity to that first concrete thing out in the world is a really special phase of the work of new product launches. And it is, over the course of my career, just the thing I have really zeroed in on professionally over time. That's kind of my wheelhouse. And so I think that's thing number one. But what makes it special is that I like to think of it like it's almost like the first few seconds of the existence of the universe after the Big Bang... CHAD: [laughs] JORDYN: where you are inventing the ground rules of the thing you are building as you are building it. And that is a very...it's just a really special time. And some people love it, and some people despise it. There's a lot of chaos and uncertainty, and you have to move forward despite all of that chaos and uncertainty. And some of us love the; I don't know, there's just this feeling that anything is possible, a sort of sense of newness and really paving the road while you're hacking through the jungle, and I just love that. And I feel like I want to help other companies love that phase too. [laughs] It's like a weird thing to say. I'm almost like an evangelist for that time. But I'm an evangelist for it because I feel like it's really important to make sure that you're tying the mission and vision of the business; you're weaving it into what it is you're doing in the product ASAP. Do it early. Make sure you're thinking about this stuff from the jump. And if I can be an evangelist for that kind of thinking and the processes that make it possible, it's just a really exciting thing for me to be able to do. CHAD: That's really cool. You saying that made me think about this sense that I have that oftentimes when you're faced with that period of time where everything is possible, and you're literally defining what the product and the business is going to be, maybe there are more than two buckets. But I think, generally, people fall into one of two buckets. There are the people who look at that and say, "Okay, here's what we're not going to do." And they're really good at saying no to things and narrowing down from that. Another group of people who maybe even really struggle with all of the possibility, and their reaction is to say "Yes," to everything. JORDYN: Right. Yep. CHAD: And you can probably say judged by the way that I introduced the concept which one I think is better. JORDYN: [laughs] CHAD: But that's the two buckets I see. Do you see that too? JORDYN: Oh, absolutely. And I will say partly why I am so enthusiastic about this phase is that I was a bucket number two person and worked very hard to become a bucket number one person because that's the mindset you have to get in. But it's a real delicate balance. It's not always clear; you have to be open to things changing. But saying no is way more important than saying yes in the sense that, you know, I think the phrase people like to use in startup land is you can't boil the ocean, and that is true. So it's much easier...the path is much easier and clearer if you start small. But if you're an entrepreneur, by nature, that's going to feel really uncomfortable to you because what you see out in the world is possibility and probably endless possibility, right? CHAD: Right. JORDYN: So the notion that you are going to squeeze yourself into the tiniest space to start when you see the giant opportunity. And PS, everyone is asking you to articulate that giant opportunity. You need to be able to tell that story so that you can recruit people to your cause. But at the same time, you need to be ruthlessly focused in the here and now on the small things, like, the constrained things you're going to do, for now, all the things you're going to say no to for now while keeping your eyes on this larger, expansive prize. It is just a really...it's an art; it is a hard thing to do. CHAD: How did you shift your mindset? JORDYN: Through failure. CHAD: [laughs] JORDYN: It was through painfully failing at doing this. [laughs] I made every textbook mistake, some of them fairly recently. [laughs] So there's a lot of folks out there who their first venture, their first foray into this world, was a success, and that's wonderful for them. That's great. But their advice is sort of suspect for me and for a lot of founders because it's like, well, you didn't... [laughs] maybe it was skill, maybe it was luck; it was probably a combination of both. Like, good for you that you did this. But if you've started a business, launched a product one time, and it was wildly successful, how are you in a position to teach me who might be on failure number two, or three, or whatever, how I need to change in order to be successful, what needs to change in order for me to be successful? Like, you're not going to be that useful to me. And so I find I'm in a much better position to help other people not fall into the same potholes that I did because I fell into them. I can look at folks and say, "I know what you're thinking. I know you've got your eyes on this large market opportunity. And you can see the mass market future ten years from now for this thing that you're building, that's great. But you have to start with the narrowest of early adopters." And you have to start with a pain point that is, quote, "hair on fire" is another phrase people like to use, like, just some pain point that people have that is just so painful for people right now that they are willing to pay someone to fix it. You got to focus on that despite this large, open-ended opportunity that's in the future. I can only really give that advice to folks credibly because I have done the opposite so many times that I can both empathize with where they're at in that impulse to boil the ocean, but I can also tell them how one way of disabusing yourself of that mindset. So I think back to actually...so I have an older sister. She was really terrible at math when we were younger. [laughs] And she was the best math teacher for me because it didn't come easy for her. Going to someone who's a math genius to help teach you what greater than or less than is is [laughs] not going to help you because it's self-evident to them. Like, how are they going to break that down for you? My sister was a great math teacher for me because her understanding of math was quite hard-won. So if I came to her and said, "Hey, I don't understand greater than or less than," which, PS, is truly what happened. CHAD: [laughs] JORDYN: I was like, I don't really...however, it was being explained to me did not [laughs] resonate. She was a great person to go to because she would not judge me for not understanding it, first of all, and she would have ways of breaking that down. So I'm that person for new founders, people just starting out trying to come up with a new product or explore a new opportunity. I have learned all the painful lessons on their behalf. So it's not like I'm coming to them with advice; that's just boilerplate advice I have read somewhere, and I'm now repeating to them. No, I have painfully learned these lessons. [laughs] Let me help you avoid that. CHAD: And you said it earlier...you used the phrase like not now or not yet. And I think that's a great way of just slightly...no doesn't mean no forever. [laughs] It just means not right now, not yet. Now's not the right time. JORDYN: Exactly. CHAD: And I think that's a healthy way of reframing it. You're trying to strike that balance between the opportunity and the future and what you're doing today to make the product successful and get it out the door. JORDYN: And you can do a lot of work around those bright, shiny, attractive future possibilities that make it feel...you can basically say, "Not yet, and here's what will have to happen for it to become now." You can kind of nurture those opportunities over time, and what will be the criteria to make them something you want to pursue now. It can kind of sate your desire to pursue them if you nurture the plan over time. So it's not like you just say, "Not yet," you say, "Not yet, and here's the evolving set of things that will tell us it's the right time." And having that shared alignment on the team around what those things are but keeping your eyes on them, actively monitoring the situation to be on the lookout when now is the time can satisfy your urge to be working toward that. I think that's what's really hard for founders who really have their eyes on this big opportunity is you can sometimes feel like you're not making any progress toward it because the progress is so incremental. So finding those practices that feed that thing for you, that keep you motivated and inspired to be working toward that long-term large goal, finding those ways to keep at it, to see the progress, keep refining why it is you're doing what you're doing and how it is you're getting there, can make you feel like you're pursuing and even when you're not [laughs] if that makes any sense. I just acknowledge that people need to do something. Just telling yourself or your team not yet is sometimes not enough because you're in it for that big vision, right? CHAD: Right. Yeah, that's great. One of the things that stood out to me when we first met was the variety of different experiences that you've held, different positions, different roles, different things you've done. You started doing web development. You've done user experience, product management, you've been CTO, you've been CEO of companies. You did product lead and VP of product. That variety of experience, I think is more than I have. [laughs] You have held those different roles. How has that evolved for you in your career? What's been driving that forward for you? JORDYN: I was always this product strategy person inside. I didn't necessarily know it. I didn't really even know. I mean, back in the early days of the web, a product mindset wasn't even really a thing, and advertising got a hold of the internet first. And so it was really about graphic design for a long time and a bunch of other things. But throughout that first decade that I spent as an engineer, as a front-end engineer, I was just constantly that annoying person on the team who was like, "Why are we building this? Who are we building it for? Why are we building this?" Because what I learned is as much as I liked to code, and I liked the puzzle of solving the problem of how to turn a design into a thing people could click on, that was really fun for me, but it was only fun for a while before I started to become really sad, disappointed that we would launch things that would be market failures in the sense of, yeah, we launched a thing, and we checked the box, but no one was using it. And I would come back and say...and I was mostly doing agency work at the time, and so there was not a lot of follow-up. We'd launch something, and then it was, like, move on to the next project. I wanted to know, was this successful? Did people use it? Are people using it? Like, how are they using it? Is it easy to use? And I wanted to answer those questions. And then, when I started to do more of that follow-up work, and then I was finding that most of the things we were launching were failures by my standards. No one cared about them. No one was using them. They were hard to use. And I wanted to make impactful things. And so I kept asking the questions, and I kept asking them earlier and earlier. This is how I ended up in user experience design. I was like, well, can we answer these questions first? Can we make a plan before we ever put pixels to screen, so to speak, [laughs] before we start building? Can we know something so that when we do build...which I had intimate understanding of how much work it is to build software. It's not nothing. It's a big investment of time and energy. And what I wanted increasingly was for that to be time and energy well spent for the entire team and for the universe. [laughs] And so that's how I ended up...I think of it as like swimming upstream in the sense that there's still a lot of waterfall process going on in software. And I was just constantly asking why and for whom earlier and earlier in the process, just so that we could make sure that what we were building was "The Right It," to quote a book title that a lot of folks [laughs] in startup land have read. Like, let's make sure it's "The Right It" before we invest a lot of time and energy, and, frankly, emotion into building something. That was really where this was coming from for me is that I think at heart, secretly or not so secretly, I'm still that engineer, that front-end engineer. And I want cool projects. I want to work on cool projects with cool people that are impactful. And I think that's true of most engineers. [laughs] No one is purely satisfied to just be given an assignment that they're supposed to execute without thinking about it. And getting into UX and then getting into product management was for me almost like a mission to make sure that by the time something got to engineering, it was a good idea. I just wanted to save engineers from terrible projects; that was my whole mission. [laughs] CHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we have a set of core values, and one of them is fulfillment. And in the writing around that, the phrase we often use is we want to work on products that we believe deserve to exist. JORDYN: Yes. CHAD: And that doesn't just mean that they have a positive impact on the world instead of a negative impact. But we're very intentional about the words we use, so there's a double meaning to that phrase. It's having a positive impact on the world, but it also means that it's the right product. This is what we should be building that it deserves to exist. JORDYN: Yes, because you all know, we know how hard it is to make software. It's actually really hard. I think certainly building new products, you know, what a new product meant in 1920 is a very different thing than what [laughs] it means in 2022. And while it is a lot easier to bring new products into the world, like software products, internet products, it doesn't mean it's just easy. There's a lot of effort and resources that go into doing this, so let's make sure we're spending those things wisely. Is the product idea good? Does it deserve to exist, but also, have we done our homework to validate that people want this, that they're going to use it? And to the extent that you can. There are limits to the ability of any team to forecast that. But when you bring more of this experimental mindset to it as soon as possible, it's like you up the odds that you'll end up building something valuable. And like you were saying about the word deserve, the word valuable to me is very broad, valuable to users, valuable to the business, valuable to the world. Let's create things of value if we're going to go to the trouble of creating things. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. CHAD: Have you found any tools, or techniques, or things that work particularly well for doing that? JORDYN: Yeah, and it's probably not going to be all that satisfying. There are no shortcuts, I think, is what's challenging about this. [laughs] The tool and the process that I always start with and come back to is talking to customers and talking to users if those two people are not the same. Talk to people, not about your product idea; talk to them about their lives. Talk to them about what is difficult for them, what is easy for them, what they value, and you will seldom go wrong if you start and return to that process and truly listen. This whole thing of talking to customers and talking to users is an art in and of itself. It's not idle, you know; it's not just a thing you toss off once in a while. [laughs] It's a skill. It's an art. And that is where you begin in it. Now, that is not the whole thing. But if you're starting there or returning there, you can always do this. I talk to teams all the time who have whiffed on this step of the process, and it's fine. Like, people who are builders, especially entrepreneurs, just want to get in there and start making something, like, I get that. CHAD: Well, I think it's the combination of really wanting to move quickly and get to something really, really quickly. But I also think there is an element of fear... JORDYN: [laughs] Yes. CHAD: that causes people so that these two things combined really set people up to not do this... JORDYN: To not do this, yes. CHAD: because they're afraid of what they'll learn. And so it's much easier to just say, "Well, I know what to build. Let's build it. And you don't need to actually talk to people who might tell you something that isn't aligned with what you think the product should be." JORDYN: 100%, 100%. Getting over that fear is hard, and you probably will just have to fail really hard without getting over it. I mean, that was certainly my experience, I mean, like several times. [laughs] I tried to build things without talking to anyone about it. I also was one of these people that built something that...and I can get into the story, but I built something that was successful enough without talking to a single person about it. And it really sent me down a fool's path for a while because I thought that's how it worked. But yeah, that fear is real. But I think the thing that got me around it eventually and gets me around it now is there's the rational side of this which is, well, wouldn't you rather know sooner than later that something is not a good idea or this is not a pain point? Sure. But the more visceral, emotional thing that got me around it is good ideas are actually a dime a dozen. You'll have good ideas. You'll have ten good ideas tomorrow morning. Your one idea that you have decided to explore and build out and build a company around it won't be your only idea. It is not the only good idea. [laughs] You will have more of those. If you had 1, you'll have 10. So talking to users means you'll figure out...you'll have the opportunity to come up with more of those ideas, and one of them will be the winner. All of them are probably good ideas on some level. Having ideas isn't the problem. People are afraid of talking to customers and learning that their idea is not good, but you got to turn that on your head. You talk to customers to learn what they need, and then you'll have 20 ideas about how to solve that for them, solve that need. The real fool's path here is to get attached to your first one idea that you had to solve a problem. It's to get attached to your problem before you have validated it. That's another pitfall here. But then to think that the first thought you had and how to solve it is going to be your only good idea, nah, you have lots of good ideas; we all do. [laughs] You'll have more. So really just focusing on that pain point and listening to people and then really doing the work to generate more and more ideas. Even if you think you have a good solution now, it's always worth thinking about what other solutions might be constantly because your solution that you've come up with might have some feasibility issues. It might have other problems that you haven't seen yet. So it's always good to have more solutions in the hopper in case the one that you're pursuing right now doesn't turn out to be the right one. CHAD: This is something that I don't know the answer to, and that is I do know you didn't originally start out as a developer, and it's not what your education is in. JORDYN: [laughs] No. CHAD: But how did you get into development? JORDYN: [laughs] I was in college. This was just such a lucky, random thing. But I was in college, and I was in a band, a rock band. And this was early '98, maybe even fall '97. We were just at practice one day, and someone in the band was like, "We need a website." And this was when this was like a new thing that people did. [laughs] And everyone in the room just turned and looked at me. And I was like, "Oh, I'm making the website? Okay." CHAD: Why? Were you a tech person in their mind? JORDYN: I don't know, I guess because I seemed scrappy and capable even then. I have no idea. But I was like, all right, I'll see what I can figure out. So I wandered into the computer lab and just went to the person running the computer lab and was like, "Hey, how do I make a website?" [laughs] And this guy whose name I don't remember which is horrible, I really wish I could reach out to this guy and be like, "Hey, I have a career because of you, thank you." CHAD: [laughs] JORDYN: He was like, "Oh, cool. Here's what you do." And he basically opened up Netscape and was like, "Hey, there's like a..." there was like an editor. I don't even remember what it was called now. If you recall, there was an editor in Netscape. He was like, "Here's the basics of this. And here's a website," which was the... [laughs] What was the name of this website? All of the articles on this website were titled something like, so you want to make a webpage? Or so you want to make an interactive image replacement? Or so you want to host a website on a server? Whatever, like, that was all the articles. And that website taught me how to code, and that guy put me on a path, and I just immediately was like, this is the most fun thing ever. I was like, I love this. [laughs] And it wasn't like two months before I had built the websites for a couple of departments on campus. My mom had a recruiting business at the time. She was like, "Can you make my recruiting business website?" It was just like, off to the races, which was great. But I graduated into the dot-com bust, which meant I could not get a job doing this. It's like entry-level folks always see a recession coming first, right? CHAD: Right. JORDYN: And everyone was like, "Oh my God, you can write HTML. You're going to get a six-figure job immediately," whatever. [laughs] And I was like, that is not what's happening here. I would have a job interview at someplace, and then they'd stop calling me. And I would find out that the company went under the day after I interviewed. That was what was happening. So I couldn't get a job, a professional job doing this for a while. But I kept doing it on the side basically for my friends and family and eventually managed to get back into some professional [laughs] aboveboard real roles doing this work, but it was a struggle at first. And it was only just because I just really loved doing it, which, again, to circle back to something we talked about before, was kind of a liability for me for a while. Liking coding makes you really unthoughtful about what you're coding because you're always happy to do it, right? [laughs] CHAD: Oh, I speak from personal experience, yes. [laughs] JORDYN: Yes, right. I just wasn't thinking, is this a good idea? I was thinking great, cool; I get to code more. I love this. That was fine early on because I did get a lot of experience. And the first real job I got doing this work was at a company that was building websites for musicians, and our main client was Warner Brothers music. And so I got to build the My Chemical Romance website. CHAD: Cool. JORDYN: I got to build madonna.com for the Confessions on the Dance Floor release and tour. CHAD: That's really cool. JORDYN: Like, it was really fun. And basically, I got to build a new website every two weeks for three years which was amazing bootcamp for me. The designers there were just fantastic. I learned more than I can ever even probably understand about doing that. But partly what I learned was [laughs] this feeling of this was where that feeling began where I was like, is this the right thing? Are we building the right thing? Or is this successful? That's when I started to ask those questions: is what we're doing what people want? So anyway, it was very fun. I got into it because I was in rock bands, which is strange. I don't think people typically find lucrative careers being in rock bands. [laughs] CHAD: I talk to a lot of people over the years through our apprenticeship program, through different things where there are people out there who connect with programming like you did and like I did. The difference is that, for whatever reason, I had that experience when I was 10. [laughs] And other people just never get the opportunity to be exposed to that until later. But it's remarkable when it happens, and you get that connection where it just connects with you at a level that almost nothing has before. It's like a constant dopamine hit when you're programming. JORDYN: Oh, it is. Yeah, I used to joke that, basically, I felt like I got to play video games for a living because that's what it felt like. It was just one puzzle game after another. It just didn't feel like work. I got to go to work every day and solve what felt like really interesting problems and puzzles. And at the end, there was a thing people used or could look at. It just felt like I'd hit pay dirt. I felt so lucky to have found it. But yeah, I haven't done this since the pandemic. But for several years before that, I was a Girls Who Code instructor, and being able to pay that experience forward and help middle school, high school-aged girls who hadn't necessarily had this experience yet find themselves in coding, that was really the mission me and my co-teacher had decided that was really what we were after. We didn't care if they walked away from doing this with any hard coding skills. What we wanted them to have in their minds was I can be a programmer, and that seems like fun or possible for me. That was all we wanted. And it was so amazing to see that moment where it clicked for them where they were like, "Oh, there's like a pattern here." And yeah, see that dopamine hit thing start to set up, you know, in their brains and know that it was only going to help them. I mean, I often said to them, "Major in whatever you want in college, but get a minor in computer science; that's where your job is. [laughter] Sorry to break this to you, but this is where your job is." [laughs] CHAD: Another thing that you've done is you've advised a lot of companies through a few different organizations: Underscore VC, the Harvard Innovation Lab. What makes a good advisor as opposed to a bad advisor? JORDYN: This is a really hard question, actually, because it's not often entirely clear in the moment whether a given advisor is...if you feel a lot of rapport with someone and they're helping you out in the moment, that's great. But often, one finds that something an advisor told you that did not land at all at the time comes back later to be something that's really useful. So I want to say up front that what makes a good advisor is really idiosyncratic to the founder, and to the advisor, and to the moment they find themselves together in. So with that as a big caveat, I think what I bring to this, what I go out of my way to bring to it, is that I've been in the trenches. I know what that feels like. And I trust founders, like, my job there is to just add some perspective. I've participated in building over 30 products, so I can help them. They might be doing their first product or business, and all I'm there to do is bring a bunch of other experience for them to pick some insights from. It's not actually my job, I don't think, to pre-filter that stuff for them. I'm very practical and hands-on. They bring a problem to me, and I'm like, "Okay, here's three times I've seen that situation before. And here are three things that happened." And I basically multiply their historical experience that they can draw from; that's sort of what I bring to this. There's another thing here when I've had valuable advisors, this thing that's kind of hard to articulate. But it's like, often early on, what you need is just someone to take you seriously, just really take you seriously as a founder and a leader. I go way out of my way to make it clear that I am doing that with them and that it is my assumption 100% that they will rise to that occasion, that they will figure out who they need to be, what resources they need to bring to bear in order to be successful. And doing that, taking them seriously and taking their ideas seriously, taking their experiences seriously, and really demonstrating that I think they have what it takes and I think that they can rise to this occasion, I think is probably the most valuable thing because most people don't do that. They come to your idea looking to tear it down, and I think it's well-meaning. They want to stress test you and your idea. That's all well and good. But, I mean, I'm often advising underrepresented founders and what they need is confidence. They need to be built up, not torn down. That doesn't mean I don't bring skepticism and help them try to think evermore clearly about what it is they're doing and why; I definitely do that. But there's this baseline of I think you are capable of doing this. I think you are a person who gets to do this; that is not in question for me. And that alone I think is probably the most valuable thing you can get from an advisor, [laughs] is just someone to take you seriously. CHAD: That's great. So for folks who have been familiar with thoughtbot for a while, we have a lot of advice out there in the world for how to build products, how to validate things, exercises to run, all that kind of stuff. And we bundle all of that up in what we call our playbook. And now, as we're sort of almost 20 years into this now, that's a big resource. And so we're doing something new, which is extracting the information that we have specifically targeted towards those earliest stages of a new product or a business into a separate playbook. You're taking your wisdom, and you're going to be able to add it to that as well. And it's going to be a little bit more targeted. So we've just launched that. And you can find it at thoughtbot.com/research-strategy-playbook. I would encourage folks to check that out. Jordyn, when it comes to sharing, we're big at that at thoughtbot, and I'm excited to have you as part of that. Is there something that you think our approach from the fact that we're a consulting company or an agency makes it either in good ways or bad ways different than joining a product company and what you might do in a new role, or in sharing, or in working on things that we work on? JORDYN: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I'll have more to say about this when I've been here for a year. Having been here for a month, [laughter] this answer might be suspect. So far, anyway, the way I think about the differences here is that our role in working with product companies is to help them build the muscles to do this work, not to do it for them because they need to be able to do it going forward. We're not going to embed with them for the rest of time. So that's a big difference, and that's both good and bad in the sense that we can maintain a certain amount of perspective because we can bring a kind of insider-outsider, like, we've done this lots and lots of times. We've seen the myriad ways that can go. And so we can bring that experience to bear while also remaining somewhat, I mean, objective is maybe a problematic word here, but some flavor of that while remaining outside of the everyday operational reality of the business. So that can be a really helpful perspective. But I think the sort of risk there that I see is not being able to fully appreciate...that's the wrong word, but it's like, maybe not having the credibility we could have because we aren't going to be around to see this thing through. There's really, especially at early stages with projects, you really need people who are in it to win it, in it for the long haul. And so, I can see this looking like a tough sell for certain founders. But from what I know so far, what I know about myself, what I know about thoughtbot so far is that that couldn't be further from the truth for us. We really are invested in folks' long-term success. And we do want to leverage our ability to focus and stand slightly outside of day-to-day operations to help them gain that perspective. But that is really the give and take, I think, of being a consultant rather than being part of the company. CHAD: Now, it does make us...there are companies out there that that's not the goal, the goal is to make you dependent on them. JORDYN: Yes, right. [laughs] CHAD: That definitely is one of the unique things about thoughtbot is that that is not our goal. Our goal is to teach people to do what we do. But we do sometimes get criticized for, in those early stages, exactly that. It's like, where's your sense of urgency or your passion about this? And actually, we do have it. It's just the analogy I often use is we're like a professional sports team. [laughs] We make it look easy because we're really good at it. And a lot of environments are ones where in order to make things happen, you need to create an environment of stress or those kinds of things. And that's what people are used to. And so when they start working with us, and they don't see that, they think something is wrong. JORDYN: Yes, yes. 100%. And that is a huge cultural challenge with working with startups in general, where there is a real fire-fighting mentality. Like, let's get in there and make some stuff happen. Things are shifting constantly, and you've got to react. And I'm working 80-hour weeks to just make sure everything gets done. And I would hope..., and I've seen this to a certain extent in my month here so far, but the goal is for us to help folks work smarter, not harder, in the sense that more output does not mean more success. We do have the experience of having worked on so many products, each of us individually and then collectively as a company. It is our goal, and it is my personal sincere hope that we can help these companies see how to do this work better and more sustainably without burning yourself out. If you happen to be successful while focused on this kind of work more output, it's only by chance you were successful there. It wasn't because you worked that hard. [laughs] And it's hard to see. There is a lot of like hustle culture stuff out there that makes you feel like unless you are burning your candle at both ends, you're not doing it right. I think thoughtbot has the depth of experience to say," No, we can say otherwise," and to help companies figure out how to do that. I can absolutely see what you mean that people are like; these people don't have the fire in their belly, which couldn't be further from the truth. But it does feel very different from the inside. CHAD: I feel like I could talk to you all day, [laughs] but we have to keep the episode somewhat within our normal constraints. Jordyn, thank you so much. If folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? JORDYN: So I am @skybondsor S-K-Y-B-O-N-D-S-O-R pretty much everywhere that you might want to... [laughter] A friend of mine gave me that nickname years ago. That's my handle pretty much everywhere. I spend a lot of time on Twitter, so that's probably the best place if you want to follow me or interact with me. But I'm also on LinkedIn and a lot of other places. CHAD: And you can subscribe to the show, find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at, not as an exciting username as @skybondsor, but @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot; thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Jordyn Bonds.

Multiple award-winning Acadian country music star Laurie LeBlanc joins hosts Gregg Tilston and Karim Kanji on the show! 2019 was a banner year for LeBlanc. Recipient of the Male Country Artist of the Year 2019 at the Josie Music Awards in Tennessee, Laurie LeBlanc also participated in a dance and country music congress organized by the Francophone Federation of Country Dance and Line Dance FFCLD in Issoudun, France. This experience proved to be important in his career when he met Irish singer-songwriter Don Mescall, who later offered him several songs. From there was born his first English-language album of original compositions, When It's Right It's Right , which was released in 2020. Produced by emeritus Jason Barry (Dean Brody, Charlie Major, Terri Clark, Jason Blaine), this album undoubtedly marked a turning point in his career. In 2022, Laurie launches his 8th solo recording "Long Weekend", a double EP of original songs in French and English, a real turning point in his career. Over the years, Laurie LeBlanc has performed on stage across Canada and shared the stage with many established artists, including Zachary Richard, Michel Pagliaro, Renée Martel, Patrick Norman, Guylaine Tanguay, Laurence Jalbert, Paul Piché , Marc Hervieux, etc. These beautiful musical and personal encounters have greatly contributed to him: they have shaped the artist and the human being that he is today.

Today on The Left vs. The Right: It's a hard-fought battle for seats as America prepares for the midterm elections in November. Key states like Pennsylvania are seeing Democrat John Fetterman lose ground to Dr. Oz while Wisconsin seems all but victorious for Republicans. What about The Empire State? Governor Kathy Hochul has a challenge ahead of her as Lee Zeldin gains ground on the incumbent. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From the US, Texas & Canada 1st for Weekly neo-traditonal & classic Country program Fred's Country 2022 w # 38: Part 1: - Tracy Byrd, Undo the Right - It's About Time – 1999 - Drake Milligan, Tipping Point - Dallas/Fort Worth – 2022 - Donice Morace, Goin' Goin' - S - 2022 - Zac Brown Band & James Taylor, Love & Sunsets - The Comeback – 2021 - Catie Offerman, Get A Dog - S - 2022 Part 2: - Drake Milligan feat Vince Gill, Goin' Down Swingin' - Dallas/Fort Worth – 2022 - Bri Bagwell, Cowboy Cold - Corazón y Cabeza – 2022 - David Adam Byrnes, Keep Up With A Cowgirl - S – 2022 - Daryle Singletary, I'd Love To Lay You Down - That's What I Sing This Way - 2002 Part 3: - Curtis Grimes, Miles Don't Matter - Curtis Grimes - 2021 - Jon Pardi, Raincheck - Mr. Saturday Night – 2022 - Wynn Williams, I Love Her for Leaving - S - 2022 - Drake Milligan, Bad Day To Be A Beer - Dallas/Fort Worth – 2022 - Luke Combs, The Kind of Love We Make - Growin' Up - 2022 Part 4: - Clay Aery, Only One - S – 2022 - Holly Tucker, Breakin' in These Boots - S - 2022 - Drake Milligan, Kiss Goodbye All Night - Dallas/Fort Worth – 2022 - Chad Cooke Band, Anderson County - S - 2022 - Charley Crockett, Home Motel - Lil G.L. Presents: Jukebox Charley - 2021

Tom touches on a few hot topics form around the world and has a detailed discussion on the fraud perpetrated about Lake Mead and its draining.*Bidens Ratings Fall, Inflation and Recession Loom*Why Obi-Wan is A Valuable Lesson*Hoover Dam and Climate Change *Spinning Lies*Violence in Tourist Areas*DNA Privacy*Roethlisberger is Right *It's Not Just Football Books by host Thomas Purcell are available free on to Amazon Prime and Kindle subscribersThe money pledged thru Patreon will go toward show costs such as advertising, server time, and broadcasting equipment. If we can get enough listeners, we will expand the show to two hours and hire additional staff.To help our show out, please support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/LibertyNeverSleepsAll bumper music and sound clips are not owned by the show, are commentary, and of educational purposes, or de minimus effect, and not for monetary gain. No copyright is claimed in any use of such materials and to the extent that material may appear to be infringed, I assert that such alleged infringement is permissible under fair use principles in U.S. copyright laws. If you believe material has been used in an unauthorized manner, please contact the poster.

On this episode of the Adventures Of Pipeman, Pipeman speaks to Post Profit who are going to be performing at Welcome to Rockville in Daytona.Pipeman starts by asking about the hell which the band had to go through over the last two years, and even had their tour cancelled the day before they were to leave, but did manage to finish their album at that time.One of the positive that Post Profit have felt is the creation of music is the best it has ever been, and the last couple of years have been setting the bar so high.They also discuss the upcoming Welcome to Rockville festival, which is held at the legendary Daytona Speedway and hwo excited they are for it. They agree that last year the festival was one of the first back after the pandemic, so people were a bit stand offish, but Pipeman predicts people will go balls out and get excited for this onePost Profit go into detail on their new album When We Think It's Right It's Always Wrong on February 25th, which was 3 years in the making. They explain what you can expect from the album and their sound, and what you can expect from them seeing them live. They also touch on the name and how they related to it a lot between the entire band.You can find the band on all major social media platforms, and you can stream their music on all major music platforms too! For more information on the band, visit www.postprofitofficial.com/store.Take some zany and serious journeys with The Pipeman aka Dean K. Piper, CST on The Adventures of Pipeman also known as Pipeman Radio syndicated globally “Where Who Knows And Anything Goes”. Listen to & Watch a show dedicated to motivation, business, empowerment, inspiration, music, comedy, celebrities, shock jock radio, various topics, and entertainment. The Adventures of Pipeman is hosted by Dean K. Piper, CST aka “The Pipeman” who has been said to be hybrid of Tony Robbins, Batman, and Howard Stern. The Adventures of Pipeman has received many awards, media features, and has been ranked for multiple categories as one of the Top 6 Live Radio Shows & Podcasts in the world. Pipeman Radio also consists of multiple podcasts showing the many sides of Pipeman. These include The Adventures of Pipeman, Pipeman in the Pit, and Positively Pipeman and more. You can find all of the Pipeman Podcasts anywhere you listen to podcasts. With thousands of episodes that focus on Intertainment which combines information and entertainment there is something for everyone including over 5000 interviews with celebrities, music artists/bands, authors, speakers, coaches, entrepreneurs, and all kinds of professionals.Then there is The Pipeman Radio Tour where Pipeman travels the country and world doing press coverage for Major Business Events, Conferences, Conventions, Music Festivals, Concerts, Award Shows, and Red Carpets. One of the top publicists in music has named Pipeman the “King of All Festivals.” So join the Pipeman as he brings “The Pipeman Radio Tour” to life right before your ears and eyes.The Adventures of Pipeman Podcasts are heard on The Adventures of Pipeman Site, Pipeman Radio, Talk 4 Media, Talk 4 Podcasting, iHeartRadio, Pandora, Amazon Music, Audible, Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts and over 100 other podcast outlets where you listen to Podcasts. The following are the different podcasts to check out and subscribe to:• The Adventures of Pipeman• Pipeman Radio• Pipeman in the Pit• Positively PipemanFollow @pipemanradio on all social media outletsVisit Pipeman Radio on the Web at linktr.ee/pipemanradio, theadventuresofpipeman.com, pipemanradio.com, talk4media.com, w4cy.com, talk4tv.com, talk4podcasting.comDownload The Pipeman Radio APPPhone/Text Contact – 561-506-4031Email Contact – dean@talk4media.com The Adventures of Pipeman is broadcast live daily at 8AM ET.The Adventures of Pipeman TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).The Adventures of Pipeman Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) and K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) – Hollywood Talk Radio part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). The Adventures of Pipeman Podcast is also available on www.theadventuresofpipeman.com, Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

On this episode of the Adventures Of Pipeman, Pipeman speaks to Post Profit who are going to be performing at Welcome to Rockville in Daytona.Pipeman starts by asking about the hell which the band had to go through over the last two years, and even had their tour cancelled the day before they were to leave, but did manage to finish their album at that time.One of the positive that Post Profit have felt is the creation of music is the best it has ever been, and the last couple of years have been setting the bar so high.They also discuss the upcoming Welcome to Rockville festival, which is held at the legendary Daytona Speedway and hwo excited they are for it. They agree that last year the festival was one of the first back after the pandemic, so people were a bit stand offish, but Pipeman predicts people will go balls out and get excited for this onePost Profit go into detail on their new album When We Think It's Right It's Always Wrong on February 25th, which was 3 years in the making. They explain what you can expect from the album and their sound, and what you can expect from them seeing them live. They also touch on the name and how they related to it a lot between the entire band.You can find the band on all major social media platforms, and you can stream their music on all major music platforms too! For more information on the band, visit www.postprofitofficial.com/store.Pipeman's Power of Music is a music and interview segment of The Adventures of Pipeman Radio Show (#pipemanradio) and from The King of All Festivals while on The Pipeman Radio Tour. Pipeman's Power of Music features all kinds of music and interviews with bands & music artists especially in the genres of Heavy Metal, Rock, Hard Rock, Classic Rock, Punk Rock, Goth, Industrial, Alternative, Thrash Metal & Indie Music. Pipeman's Power of Music also features press coverage of events, concerts, & music festivals. Pipeman Productions is an artist management company that sponsors the show introducing new local & national talent showcasing new artists & indie artists.Then there is The Pipeman Radio Tour where Pipeman travels the country and world doing press coverage for Major Business Events, Conferences, Conventions, Music Festivals, Concerts, Award Shows, and Red Carpets. One of the top publicists in music has named Pipeman the “King of All Festivals.” So join the Pipeman as he brings “The Pipeman Radio Tour” to life right before your ears and eyes.Pipeman's Power of Music Podcasts are heard on Pipeman Radio, Talk 4 Media, Talk 4 Podcasting, iHeartRadio, Pandora, Amazon Music, Audible, Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts and over 100 other podcast outlets where you listen to Podcasts. The following are the different podcasts to check out and subscribe to:•The Adventures of Pipeman•Pipeman Radio•Pipeman in the Pit•Positively PipemanFollow @pipemanradio on all social media outletsVisit Pipeman Radio on the Web at linktr.ee/pipemanradio, theadventuresofpipeman.com, pipemanradio.com, talk4media.com, w4cy.com, talk4tv.com, talk4podcasting.comDownload The Pipeman Radio APPPhone/Text Contact – 561-506-4031Email Contact – dean@talk4media.comThe Adventures of Pipeman is broadcast live daily at 8AM ET.The Adventures of Pipeman TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).The Adventures of Pipeman Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) and K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) – Hollywood Talk Radio part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Pipeman's Power of Music are also available on Pipeman Radio (www.pipemanradio.com), Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

On this episode of the Adventures Of Pipeman, Pipeman speaks to Post Profit who are going to be performing at Welcome to Rockville in Daytona.Pipeman starts by asking about the hell which the band had to go through over the last two years, and even had their tour cancelled the day before they were to leave, but did manage to finish their album at that time.One of the positive that Post Profit have felt is the creation of music is the best it has ever been, and the last couple of years have been setting the bar so high.They also discuss the upcoming Welcome to Rockville festival, which is held at the legendary Daytona Speedway and hwo excited they are for it. They agree that last year the festival was one of the first back after the pandemic, so people were a bit stand offish, but Pipeman predicts people will go balls out and get excited for this onePost Profit go into detail on their new album When We Think It's Right It's Always Wrong on February 25th, which was 3 years in the making. They explain what you can expect from the album and their sound, and what you can expect from them seeing them live. They also touch on the name and how they related to it a lot between the entire band.You can find the band on all major social media platforms, and you can stream their music on all major music platforms too! For more information on the band, visit www.postprofitofficial.com/store.Pipeman in the Pit is a music and interview segment of The Adventures of Pipeman Radio Show (#pipemanradio) and from The King of All Festivals while on The Pipeman Radio Tour. Pipeman in the Pit features all kinds of music and interviews with bands & music artists especially in the genres of Heavy Metal, Rock, Hard Rock, Classic Rock, Punk Rock, Goth, Industrial, Alternative, Thrash Metal & Indie Music. Pipeman in the Pit also features press coverage of events, concerts, & music festivals. Pipeman Productions is an artist management company that sponsors the show introducing new local & national talent showcasing new artists & indie artists.Then there is The Pipeman Radio Tour where Pipeman travels the country and world doing press coverage for Major Business Events, Conferences, Conventions, Music Festivals, Concerts, Award Shows, and Red Carpets. One of the top publicists in music has named Pipeman the “King of All Festivals.” So join the Pipeman as he brings “The Pipeman Radio Tour” to life right before your ears and eyes.Pipeman in the Pit Podcasts are heard on Pipeman Radio, Talk 4 Media, Talk 4 Podcasting, iHeartRadio, Pandora, Amazon Music, Audible, Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts and over 100 other podcast outlets where you listen to Podcasts. The following are the different podcasts to check out and subscribe to:•The Adventures of Pipeman•Pipeman Radio•Pipeman in the Pit•Positively PipemanFollow @pipemanradio on all social media outletsVisit Pipeman Radio on the Web at linktr.ee/pipemanradio, theadventuresofpipeman.com, pipemanradio.com, talk4media.com, w4cy.com, talk4tv.com, talk4podcasting.comDownload The Pipeman Radio APPPhone/Text Contact – 561-506-4031Email Contact – dean@talk4media.comThe Adventures of Pipeman is broadcast live daily at 8AM ET.The Adventures of Pipeman TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).The Adventures of Pipeman Radio Show is broadcast on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) and K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) – Hollywood Talk Radio part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Pipeman in the Pit Podcasts are also available on Pipeman Radio (www.pipemanradio.com), Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Today on What's Right: It's Friday the 13th! Elon Musk's Twitter acquisition deal on hold More insanity from Biden's "Ministry of Truth" Rand Paul blocks $40B foreign spending package Calling men bald at work now considered sexual harassment in the UK Sam talks about restorative justice, grooming, and trans issues The pervy professor is back Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. You can always visit us at samandashlaw.com and connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam @WhatsRightSam Ash @AshTheAttorney What's Right Show @WhatsRightShow Sam & Ash Law @SamAndAshLaw FACEBOOK What's Right Show https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/ Sam & Ash Law https://www.facebook.com/samandashlaw/ INSTAGRAM Sam & Ash LLP @samandashlaw YOUTUBE https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNBZfFjep_h0TRrwm3R2SXw/featured LINKEDIN https://www.linkedin.com/company/samandashlaw/

The Zombies "Going Out Of My Head" - Original Studio Recordings, Volume 3 Laura Nyro (With LaBelle) "It's Going To Take A Miracle" - Gonna Take A Miracle The Delfonics "Losing You" - La La Means I Love You O'Jays "Love Train" - Back Stabbers MFSB "My Mood" - Universal Love ******************** Jack Grace Band "Here Comes The Breeze" - What A Way To Spend The Night www.jackgrace.com @jackgrace Fred Gillen Jr. "Seeing Only Red" -Turn Off The Lights www.fredgillenjr.com @fredgillenjr Todd Snider "Battle Hymn Of The Album" - First Church Of Hope & Wonder www.toddsnider.net @toddsnider Steve Dawson "I Just Get Lost" - Gone, Long Gone" - www.stevedawson.ca @stevejdawson Dana Cooper "Flower On The Vine" - I Can Face The Truth www.danacoopermusic.com @DCRoadShow Bruce T Carroll "What's The Rush" - First Bird To Sing www.brucetcarroll.com @btc_songs Olivia Frances "Porcelain" - Orchid www.oliviafrancesmusic.com @oliviagrows ************************* The Bloodstreams "Clockwork Man" - Clockwork Man www.thebloodstreams.com @thebloodstreams Totally Slow "Blue Hotel" - www.facebook.com/totallyslow @totallyslow Rotten Mind "No Dedication" - Unflavored https://www.facebook.com/rottenmindua/ Slackrr "Home" https://www.facebook.com/Slackrr/ @slackrr_ Nordir "No Hell No" www.nordir.com @nordirofficial Blitz Union "Get Up" - Absolution www.blitzunion.com @blitzunion Silverstein "It's Over"- Misery Made Me www.silversteinmusic.com @silverstein Blue Stragglers "Late At A Festival" s/t - www.bluestragglers.co.uk @bluestragglers1 Post Profit "Smother" - When You Thnk It's Right It's Always Wrong www.postprofitofficial.com @post_profit Smash Into Pieces "Vanguard" www.smashintopieces.com @smashintopieces --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/radiocblue/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/radiocblue/support

*** IAYAALIS & Zaahruq share insight on Pathworking for 2022 *** Mindfulness & Meditation. The Kabbalah & The Tree of Life.Tarot Cards & Astrology & Numerology.

You're Right- It's Impossible in Growth by Rabbi Daniel Kalish

That's Right It's Christmas time !!! Join us as we speak on Christmas goals, Parent and Child relationships and more......We are just three fellas and one lady discussing our daily lives with a hint of current events adding our opinions on the matters at hand. Sprinkled with comedy comic relief and humor Having a good time. Drinks may involved Just friends sitting down discussing/chatting about current eventsChatting about our daily livesGiving our opinion with the matter at hand. Giving our opinions on the current events. Three best friends and a added lady friend.Join us in our chats. Life issues, friendship,

This week, at the Last Pod on the Right: It's over (ish).. Turn on your gaslight.. We got your unity, right here.. And - Heil Warnock? From LastStopontheRight.com and KLRNRadio.net: It's the Last Pod on the Right!

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE Eve Picker: [00:00:10] Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing. My guest today is Charmaine Curtis, who's had a significant career as a real estate developer on the West Coast. She owns her own company, Curtis Development and Company, and she's focused on impactful housing projects trying to crack the affordable in the land of unaffordable. But we're not video blogging, so you probably don't know that Charmaine has two strikes against her. She's a woman and she's Black. And if you've ever wondered what that's like, here's a chance to learn. Charmaine says that she didn't know what she was up against until she was in her 30s, when reality struck. "How much more personal wealth would I have, she wonders, if I were a white man?"   Eve: [00:01:12] Be sure to go to EvePicker.com to find out more about Charmaine on the show notes page for this episode and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform. Small Change.   Eve: [00:01:36] Hello, Charmaine, it's just lovely to have you on my show.   Charmaine Curtis: [00:01:40] Well, it's really nice to meet you.   Eve: [00:01:42] Yes, I hope we meet in person some day ...   Charmaine: [00:01:45] Me too.   Eve: [00:01:45] ... when this silly pandemic is over, right?   Charmaine: [00:01:49] Yes.   Eve: [00:01:50] So, I wanted to ask by, start by asking you what, what drew you into real estate?   Charmaine: [00:01:59] It was a very serendipitous and intentional way. I got a master's degree in urban planning from UC Berkeley with every intention of being a planner and, you know, doing my part to save the world. And then I got jobs as, not counterplanner kind of jobs, which is, I think that most people think of planning, they think of people who are sitting at a desk in a municipal building and, you know, giving people information about what they are or not allowed to do on their properties. I worked for the redevelopment agency in Berkeley. But my first job, first of all, was working for Libby.   Eve: [00:02:35] Oh.   Charmaine: [00:02:35] Doing market studies. Yeah. You probably didn't hear that part.   Eve: [00:02:39] No.   Charmaine: [00:02:39] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Libby was the first person I worked for out of grad school.   Eve: [00:02:45] For our listeners, Libby, Libby Seifal heads up a growing women's development collaborative that we're both part of. So backgrounds. Go ahead.   Charmaine: [00:02:54] So. I went to work for the city of Berkeley, for the redevelopment agency, and I was just a young whippersnapper who threw out into the wilderness when they were trying to expand ... into a couple parts of the city. And, so I got chewed up in that process with very little support and realized I was really not interested in being a public employee. But I didn't know what I wanted to be at that point, because I had just spent these years getting a graduate degree. And then I serendipitously was introduced to a developer who was starting his own company and looking for a young whippersnapper to come and work for cheap and help him build this company. So, that's what happened, that, you know I kind of fell into the business, not intentionally, but through that introduction, which, which was great because I got to work on some super exciting projects in San Francisco that were really pioneering. And I got to learn the business, at least that side of the business. It was, it was a for-profit company converting loft buildings or warehouse buildings into lofts, which was a new thing for San Francisco, a very old thing for New York, but a new thing for San Francisco. So, that's how I got into the business. And I did that for a few years and really got, you know, sort of trial by fire, learning that, you know, all about entitlements and actually worked on one of the first low-income housing tax credit syndications in the country.   Eve: [00:04:32] Oh.   Charmaine: [00:04:32] We did all kinds of, it was just, it was a wacky thing. You know, some of it was consulting work that we did for others. But so, I got, I got a real broad range of experience in that, in that company.   Eve: [00:04:47] Kind of always the case when you're in a small company, isn't it? You get to do everything because there's no one else to do it.   Charmaine: [00:04:54] Yeah, and small was me and him. That was it was just the two of us at the beginning. And it was really, it was a great experience. And then it was a challenging experience as the company was growing. And I kind of felt like I was not able to grow as much with it at some point because other people were brought in. And so I decided to move on. And that was in the early 90s. And I decided I really wanted to learn the affordable housing side of the business and build some affordable housing. I mean, I was sort of, back to, you know, my part and trying to save the world, and I got a job working with an organization, it was called Catholic Charities at the time in San Francisco, but was later acquired, shall we say, by the Sisters of Mercy, who were starting their own development, affordable housing development, company, which is now, as you probably know, a pretty large national company, a non-profit, and based in Denver. And so that was really an interesting transition from being part of the male dominated Catholic Church to moving into the female dominated part, which was a revelation. And so many amazing, I mean, the women who were, who started that organization, including Sister Lillian Murphy, who died last year, I think, were just extraordinary women in every way, just in terms of their true passion for providing affordable housing and alleviating poverty, you know, trying to make a dent in poverty, not just, you know, putting people in buildings. And just because they were brilliant, you know, any of these women could have run a successful for-profit development venture. But, you know, they were nuns, and so they put their talents into building an operation to build more and more affordable housing, which is, now it's just, it's, it is, as I said, one of the largest nonprofits in the country. And, you know, that was also super informative experience for me. Also a burnout, because, you know, if you've worked in affordable housing, you know that at least here in California what it takes to put an affordable housing development together is like 10 pieces of funding, small pieces of funding from, from multiple sources and then trying to marry those sources. And the brain damage and the transaction costs of affordable housing is excessive. I was also, you know, I was being a project manager, and then I was, I was managing people, and then also managing projects, which just totally a recipe for burnout. You just can't do both.   Eve: [00:07:52] Right.   Charmaine: [00:07:53] I decided to take a break, and actually decided to go to film school, which I did ...   Eve: [00:07:59] Oh wow.   Charmaine: [00:07:59] Which I did well. And I went to film school at San Francisco State, and for a semester, and during that time, I was also working and doing consulting work for Mercy and others, and to support myself. It was something that I was passionate about, but it was also something that, you know, I didn't feel I had the financial bandwidth to pursue.   Charmaine: [00:08:28] I grew up in a working class family and I wasn't really intending to be a working class person, myself. You know, the goal was to move beyond that. And to do my family proud, and to do myself proud in terms of being able to do what all generations want to do, which is just do better than the one before or the ones before, especially when you're your Black person in in this country. And I had opportunities growing up because I was recruited into a program called A Better Chance. And I left my home in Cleveland to move to Minnesota where I went to high school for three years, and went back home on vacations. That program is a program that was founded on the East Coast back in the late 60s, early 70s, to identify promising young people, kids in inner city areas who were in crappy schools and to give them an opportunity to go to, initially boarding schools on the East Coast, but it expanded to the school like I went to in the Midwest, which was a public high school in a really wealthy suburb. So, I ended up getting into Dartmouth College after that. And so, you know, I was a smart kid and I had these opportunities and, you know, and I seized them. But, you know, getting those opportunities and taking advantage of them doesn't mean that you kind of leave behind all of your, you know, the baggage of coming from a family that, where my mother, everybody worked two or three jobs. And my mother grew up picking cotton in the South. And, you know, it's really not until, I would say probably in the last 10 years of my life or so, that I've really been able to sort of think about the impact, the sort of generational impact of, of poverty and, you know, slavery and racism in this country.   Eve: [00:10:29] Yeah, well, it sounds like in one generation you've come a long way.   Charmaine: [00:10:34] Indeed. I mean, I'm the one who from my immediate family that left Cleveland and, you know, kind of made my way in this insanely expensive world of San Francisco. So, after that, I kind of did some consulting on my own, and then when I went to work for a company, there was a for-profit developer. But they develop both market rate and affordable housing, which was kind of the best of all worlds for me. And I ran the multifamily part of that company and under a really great boss who is still somebody who I'm really close to. Art Evans, who was a, I think, a real visionary in the, in the field. And who came out of a redevelopment background and held that vision of both doing well and doing good. And I would say probably more doing good, ultimately. Art, he did a lot of really great work and ended up getting clobbered like a lot of people in the, in the Great Recession of 2008, 2009.   Eve: [00:11:36] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:11:36] And then, I just did the addition the other day. I've been out on my own as long as I've worked for other people in the business. I've been on my own since 2004, and started out doing my own development, building condos in the East Bay and working on some stuff up in Seattle. And at the time I thought I had a financial partner who I thought was going to back my business, but that ended up not happening. And so I really ended up on a shoestring putting these deals together, between my own capital, and back in those days before the recession, you could do really high leverage ...   Eve: [00:12:11] Right, right.   Charmaine: [00:12:13] ... with participating debt and other kinds of financial participation by investors. And so, anyway, that was, that ended up being a, not a wise thing under the circumstances, which, of course, no one could have anticipated what was coming.   Eve: [00:12:28] No one. No one. That was a disaster.   Charmaine: [00:12:31] Yeah. And so, I built a couple of really nice projects that were in, what I would call transitional neighborhoods, which was the focus of my business plan, which was looking around the edges of, and looking at, you know, where people in San Francisco were fleeing to, frankly. Which was parts of Oakland and Berkeley, and seeing that those neighborhoods were ripe for ...   Eve: [00:12:57] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:12:57] ... change and also wanting to build an entry level product, not trying to ...   Eve: [00:13:03] Not luxury.   Charmaine: [00:13:03] ... not luxury, not, I would, I've never been interested in that, which I think was ultimately one of the reasons that my potential financial partner decided that he didn't want to invest in me, because I wasn't thinking that way. I wasn't thinking huge and expensive. My interest really is much more in transformation of neighborhoods in a relatively organic manner.   Eve: [00:13:26] And isn't that in the end, a little bit more recession proof, or a lot more recession-proof.   Charmaine: [00:13:31] Oh my God, if that was exactly my thinking at the time. Yeah.   Eve: [00:13:35] In 2008, 2009, I had a number of buildings in Pittsburgh that I had redeveloped, sort of against the grain. They were transformational. They were, I don't want to say luxury products, but they weren't affordable because I couldn't, just couldn't get the numbers right. But they were different. And honestly, I barely felt the recession. It was very odd because they were in underserved neighborhoods and places that most people weren't looking at, just as you said, on the edges. Right?   Charmaine: [00:14:05] Yeah.   Eve: [00:14:05] It was an interesting learning experience for me.   Charmaine: [00:14:09] Yeah. You know, if I'd been at a different stage in those projects, I might have been able to pull it out. But one was not yet complete. It was about 75 percent done. And the other one was basically complete.   Eve: [00:14:21] Oh yeh, almost done, yeh.   Charmaine: [00:14:24] We were just starting sales. So, it was, you know, lenders were not feeling it.   Eve: [00:14:33] That's really painful.   Charmaine: [00:14:33] Oh my God.   Eve: [00:14:34] Oh, that's painful, you know.   Charmaine: [00:14:36] It was awful. And it really, I think took me a good 10 years to recover both financially and emotionally from it. Frankly, it was really, it was devastating. It was, you know, I talked to, I was talking to one of the local developers here who's done well and I think comes from wealth. And  that, he said to me we were at a conference or something and he said, I personally lost six million dollars. And I'm like, oh, really? Well, I kind of lost everything except for my house. And so, you know, sorry, but our pain is not equal.   Eve: [00:15:09] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:15:09] So, it, yeah, it's, that's the difference, you know for me in a way that crystallizes the difference between being a Black woman who comes from where I come from, with my sensibilities. Right? Not just, I didn't get into development, too, I mean, I think maybe initially I did kind of get into development to become a rich person and, you know, prove that that's possible for a Black woman to do that in the industry. But it's the difference between being, you know, someone who doesn't come from resources versus someone who does. And who is then able to build more races on top of those resources, that provide the cushion that you need when the shit hits the fan. So. It was a crystallizing experience for me that way, in terms of, the just the stark difference. Everyone was not impacted equally by that. What happened, for sure. Since then to, that my daughters were born in 2008. I was lucky to, you know actually marry later in life and have these two girls with my husband. And that was 2008. While the world was crashing down around me, I was also pregnant and with twins and ...   Eve: [00:16:20] Oh!   Charmaine: [00:16:20] So, they were born in late 2008 and I spent the next few years just rebuilding, basically, and working on a really interesting project I worked on exclusively for a few years, which is a master plan and community work and both, internal community work with this public housing project in San Francisco and, and the surrounding community to re-envision what was a 600-unit project over 39 acres into what would be, what will be a 1600-unit mixed-income project and ...you know, in addition to working all the physical planning, working with the community to get their buy in and support, and working with the folks who live in the public housing to help them envision a better future, and to bring a new way of working with very low-income people. That's ongoing, and that is really, I didn't do on my own, or at all. There were many other people involved in this community building effort and really, in recognizing the trauma that comes with generational poverty and all the, you know, the things that happen to people who live in poverty and that keep them down. And so, that has been, and continues to be, a reasonably successful effort to lift, not just rehouse people in better housing, but to sort of lift them up and provide, protect the developmental health of the littlest ones, in particular, by also helping their parents.   Eve: [00:18:06] yes.   Charmaine: [00:18:06] So, that was a really great opportunity for me to do this amazing work on what will be a transformative project in that part of San Francisco. And now I am doing development on my own or with others and co-development capacity. And I'm still doing, I'm doing development consulting work. That gig with the nonprofit, where I did the master planning work and all that other work, was a consulting gig. And so, you know, really just the last many years been about finding the balance between supporting my family in this insanely expensive town and reinvigorating my development career as a principal, which is where it's at for me because I like to create things, you know.   Eve: [00:18:52] Yes, I know that.   Charmaine: [00:18:54] And in order to create, you need to have some measure of control ...   Eve: [00:18:57] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:18:57] ... which is when I started my business, in 2004, that was a moment when I was just on fire with, with passion to make buildings and be a part of transforming neighborhoods.   Eve: [00:19:10] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:19:11] And I feel like I've kind of rediscovered that, that passion in the last few years.   Eve: [00:19:16] It's such a great thing to make, like something happen out of nothing.   Charmaine: [00:19:20] Exactly.   Eve: [00:19:20] It's so great. There's really nothing like it.   Charmaine: [00:19:22] Yeah. And it's, I mean, that's really, I'm just a very, you know, goal oriented, like I can see it and touch it and feel it at the end of it, I'm so happy. If I can't touch it, see it and feel I'm like, what am I doing? What is, what is this?   Eve: [00:19:35]  Yes.   Charmaine: [00:19:37] So. I'm definitely a ... touch feel person and love, love to see the results.   Eve: [00:19:43] Oh yeah, me too. So, you are a Black woman in an industry that is incredibly, heavily dominated by white men, and I know that's impacted your work, but I'd love to hear from you ... how.   Charmaine: [00:19:59] You know, I will start answering that question by talking about a TV show I watched last night, which is a new show on Hulu called "Woke." And it's really interesting. I suggest you check it out. It's ...   Eve: [00:20:16] I will check it out. I'm writing it down.   Charmaine: [00:20:18] I think it just dropped last night. And it's based on the life of a cartoon artist, named, I think, Keith Knight, who invented these cartoon characters. And I don't know if the true story is butter and toast, but those were the characters, the cartoon characters in his strip, that he was, that this show was talking about. And how this guy, this Black guy thought that he was kind of exempt from, you know, the impact from being impacted by Blackness in this country until he was taken down by some cops and, you know, thrown to the ground and guns at his head because they thought that he was a mugger who had just been reported, and how that experience transformed him, and his thinking, and his perception of himself in the world. It's the first one, I just watched the first one, and I'm like, oh, my God, that's kind of me in my 30s, you know. I thought, oh, my God, I'm, I'm smart, I'm driven, I work hard, and therefore I will succeed in this business. And, you know, while there's always, you know, when you're a Black person who comes from poverty in this country, I think there's always another part of you that's back there saying, hh, that's not going to happen, Come on. But I, basically I would say I took for granted, for a very long time, what a disadvantage I was at being a Black woman in the business. I thought my smarts was enough. And it, you know, it's just not.   Eve: [00:22:01] And, It should be enough, right?   Charmaine: [00:22:02] Well, yeah. In a in a in a perfect world.   Eve: [00:22:06] In a perfect world. Yeah. Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:22:08] But, you know, in a way I, I think it was liberating to not see that limitation, like, at least not ostensibly. I probably felt it more than I saw it. And you know, and I, I built a great reputation here in this city and this region, parts of the region, anyway. But what I would say honestly and truthfully, and this is, this comes from somebody who was really hard on herself a lot of the time. If I were a white dude in this business with my skills, ability, talent, vision, I would be, you know, five times richer than I am. And have more opportunity thrown at me than I do. You know, it really just took me a really long time to actually come to that conclusion because I'm so driven, and have, and took so much for granted, frankly, about what my smarts and what my drive would get me. That said, you know, if I look sort of relative to where I come from, what my background is, you know, my mother picking cotton, my stepfather working eight thousand jobs to support us, I've done well, especially in this region where it's so hard to live. But would my career have taken a different path if I were a white dude? Absolutely. And I, I think there's a level of just not being taken seriously as a Black person in this industry. It's not even at that level. It's almost just like it's not not being taken seriously. It's just not being seen. And, and .... you're, it's not like you're invisible, but it's almost like you're invisible. Because there's a presumption that especially as a Black woman, I mean, there are some Black men in this industry in the Bay Area who've done well. Not many. I'm going to say three.   Eve: [00:24:17] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:24:17] But as a Black woman, I think it is just, it is just a given on a very subconscious level, for most people that you are not, you don't have what it takes to, you know, to do what white men can do in this business. And I think it's on some level that is something that I internalized at some point in my career. And in addition to, just all the internal stuff that Black people experience in this country, you know, from living in generations of the degradation of racism, that you see and that you don't see. Right? It's almost the unseen stuff that is worse than ... and you've heard, probably heard people say, I'd rather be Black in the south where the racism is just in your face than be Black in the north, where it's, it's implicit and unspoken, but very real nonetheless. It's hard to know, you know, what we were talking about before we started, you started to start recording, it's hard to know what you don't know. It's hard to know how your life and career trajectory would be different if you were who you were in a different body ...   Eve: [00:25:33] Right.   Charmaine: [00:25:34] ... in the body of a white man. So, it's, You know, it's complicated.   Eve: [00:25:40] It's actually quite heartbreaking.   Charmaine: [00:25:42] Yeah.   Eve: [00:25:42] You know.   Charmaine: [00:25:43] Even before the events of this year, I've been, and when I started out in 2004, it wasn't like I didn't understand that I was a Black woman in the business. I did. And part of what I really wanted to prove, and want to prove is that a Black woman, you know, a smart Black woman who is hard-working and can accomplish anything, basically, like no limitation. There are no limitations, you know, and there are, obviously. But there's still that drive in me to prove that a Black woman can be a serious success in this business. How I'm defining that, now, is probably different than it was then, because I am really about creating a different kind of world. I'm not, you know, when I was younger in the business, I was like, this is, I'm going to make a ton of money, I'm going to prove, because the measure of success in this industry is wealth. I've had this conversation with my husband many times. It's like, what a success look like in the development business. If you are a white guy, it looks like, or if you're anybody, it looks like how wealthy you are and how much money you've made. And the world is just the direction that we are moving in. I feel like it is really vital that people like me, and everybody, deploy their talents in the interest of the whole and not just themselves. That's the world I want my kids to be able to grow up in, is a world that's not a winner-take-all world, and so, that's really kind of how I'm thinking more, lately, is how can I deploy my talents in a way that's going to help to create that world where development can be a force for real transformation. And what needs to happen in the industry for that to happen? What conditions need to exist for that to happen? And there's so many different parts of it, I know that you are familiar with because you're a developer.   Eve: [00:27:48] you know what you're saying really rings for me, too, I think when I was younger, I always thought I would figure out a way to fit in to the structure of the world the way it is. And quite a while ago, I heard the first female three-star general of the Army speak, and someone in the audience asked her like, well, how do you fit into that power structure? And she, she drew a circle on a chalkboard and she said, OK, here's the power. And you keep the circle, and you keep trying to get in, and you keep trying to get in, and you keep trying to get in. And eventually you give up and you go over here, and she draws another circle, and you make your own circle of power. And I think that, you know, there are some people who are never going to change that first circle, but then there are the rest of us who want to do something different.   Charmaine: [00:28:35] Yeh, yeh, and it's really about building a movement and, or being part of a movement, and helping to build a movement to a more equitable way of developing ...   Eve: [00:28:44] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:28:44] ... our world. And I've been thinking a lot in the last few years about just how there's sort of two, especially here in the Bay Area, there's really two kind of extreme ends of the spectrum. Where we have a really robust nonprofit community on one end, which is largely, mostly comprised of white people, just as an aside, and a very robust market-rate world of development, which is mostly, also, white people ...   Eve: [00:29:15] Also white people ...   Charmaine: [00:29:15] ... more women on the nonprofit side, for sure.   Eve: [00:29:20] Yes, absolutely, because they paid less. Right?   Charmaine: [00:29:23] Yeah, exactly. And, and they are, you know, they're just, I don't know, I don't know what the difference is. There's so many differences between women and men.   Eve: [00:29:31] It's the same profile in Pittsburgh. I have to tell you ...   Charmaine: [00:29:34] Yeh.   Eve: [00:29:34]  ... it's exactly the same.   Charmaine: [00:29:36] Yeh.   Eve: [00:29:36] It's really interesting.   Charmaine: [00:29:37] But there's a sort of middle ground that's not occupied. And I think that there is a middle ground. I think there should be a middle ground, and that it should be occupied by people like me who want to use their talents to develop in a more equitable way. Which means in a way that really is not profit driven, but in a way that is driven by market principles, in a way. Because I do believe, personally, and I, this may be a controversial statement, I think that the non-profit world is not driven by the same principles that the for-profit world is.   Eve: [00:30:14] Oh, no, I totally agree, I totally agree.   Charmaine: [00:30:16] I've been on both sides. I've seen it. I've seen how I treat my money, like actually my, you know, versus some ...   Eve: [00:30:26] No, absolutely.   Charmaine: [00:30:26] ... government entity that's like three, you know, three things removed from me. So, I do believe there is a real difference. And I've been on both sides, and I developed for my own account, and I know how to drive a deal and move in to reduce the cost to the lowest possible amount while producing something that I don't have to be ashamed of.   Eve: [00:30:49] Well, you're driven, you're driven by urgency, and much of the nonprofit world is not, because they don't have to worry about the costs and staying alive in the same way.   Charmaine: [00:30:59] Right. The cost or the time.   Eve: [00:31:01] Yeah. Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:31:02] And I'm not blaming anybody or anything. This is just the system that we have created.   Eve: [00:31:08] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:31:08] And I really believe, I believe very strongly, and I've been talking about this for, you know, a few years now, that I believe that there is a third way to do development. You know, where I am not interested in trying to, I don't want to generate tons of profits for anybody else. And I don't want to generate, I don't need to generate tons of profit for myself. I would like to make money, a reasonable amount of money, that is commensurate with whatever the level of risk is that I'm taking. And the less risk I take, the less money I make. And the more, the less profit somebody else makes, the more we can use that for the benefit of the people we're developing for. And I've been thinking about that ...   Eve: [00:31:50] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:31:50] ... largely here in the context of missing middle housing, which is truly missing, like, gone, like doesn't exist.   Eve: [00:31:58] Really.   Charmaine: [00:32:00] And I don't know how you do missing middle housing. It's really a fee-driven business. It has to be in, if your heart is in the right place and you're coming at it from the right perspective and in the interest of long term affordability, and not just, you know, a five, 10, even a 15-year old and then flipping and realizing gains ... I think you really you really are coming at it from that perspective of, this is a fee business, this is a fee driven business, which nonprofit development is too, but it's a fee-driven business that brings market-driven principles to the production.   Eve: [00:32:38] Yeah, so you produce something and then it has a life of its own.   Charmaine: [00:32:41] Yeah. And there are many, many elements to this. A lot of people are talking about, you know, modular is one aspect or building innovation, since we build buildings like cave people did, basically, to a large extent. And innovations in financial markets, which means really bringing people into financial markets who are not looking at achieving the, a typical kind of market return that you would get if you were investing.   Eve: [00:33:09] Yeah, well, that's that's the key.   Charmaine: [00:33:11] That is the key.   Eve: [00:33:11] That capital is less greedy.   Charmaine: [00:33:13] Exactly.   Eve: [00:33:13] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:33:14] Taking the greed out of the bit, of this part of the business. And I'm a pragmatist at bottom. And so I'm like, we live in a capitalist world, in society. I'm like, that's, let's just say that, that's what we are. We're going to, that's always going to be a big part of who we are and how we live. And, you know, the nonprofits are doing God's work. But I do believe there is room for a third way to approach how we get stuff done. And we just have to bring, bring all of the all the, you know, creativity and passion, and bring others along into ... Being real about it. Because in the world of social impact investing, I, I hear about it a lot. I have not, I can ,I can't tell you that I've seen one development that I think benefited from whatever that is, at least the kind of development I'm talking about. There's like a new organization in San Francisco that is attracting, I think, real social impact capital. It's still money coming from wealthy people who expect a return, which I actually find that, slightly appalling, because I, I do think that if, you know, the one or even the five percent deployed even a portion of their capital in a way that was like, eventually give me my money back, and I don't expect you to give me any return on it, but I'd like it back someday.   Eve: [00:34:46] I don't mind a return that keeps up with inflation, but I'm with you completely. I posted on Small Change, I've listed projects that are affordable housing and heard complaints about the return not being high enough. And I'm actually, how can I say, unhappy with where we are, because I think the return should be as low as three percent ...   Charmaine: [00:35:08] Yeah.   Eve: [00:35:08] ... to really build affordable housing. And yet, I have to admit, I'm scared of listing a project with a return that low. I had a conversation with an amazing developer of a project just like that that really, you know, should be on that platform. And I don't know if anyone's going to invest.   Charmaine: [00:35:26] Yeah.   Eve: [00:35:27] Because it's not enough money for them. So, if they really want impact. I mean, don't people understand that the higher the return on equity, the less affordable the housing? Because, I don't ...   Charmaine: [00:35:38] I think some people do and some people don't. And I think there's a significant education aspect to this that has to occur so that people do understand that there is a direct relationship.   Eve: [00:35:50] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:35:50] I think that we will eventually, hopefully be in a world where there is a concept of 'having enough.'   Eve: [00:35:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Charmaine: [00:35:58] If you have a net worth of 100 million dollars, that's enough. And you can then use the rest of whatever you have in a way that is to the benefit of the general good. And those who don't have.   Eve: [00:36:11] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:36:11] And that's really what we need. We need a paradigm shift in how we think about our individual responsibility as citizens of the world.   Eve: [00:36:22] Yeh, and then, of course, there are the small investors who've never had a chance to invest before. You know, where that 500 dollars ...   Charmaine: [00:36:29] Yeh.   Eve: [00:36:29] ... really matters, maybe even more than the millions of the billionaire. Right? And I want them to get a return. It's very difficult. It's very inequitable.   Charmaine: [00:36:39] Yeah.   Eve: [00:36:39] So my next question would be, well, you know, what would you change to make the real estate industry a more equitable place for Blacks and women? Maybe just ignore the rest of them?   Charmaine: [00:36:52] Yeah, you know, I mean, that's obviously, there's no magic bullet. There's no, I mean, we're seeing now in 2020 how deeply ingrained white supremacy is in our culture. A couple hundred years after slavery ended. So, I am not naive about the, and I don't like to be airy fairy and unrealistic about the possibilities. You know, I think that one thing I see in San Francisco happening is that, at least in the nonprofit world, is that nonprofits are making an active effort to hire more Black people on their staffs, which I applaud, especially if you are hiring people and then supporting them in the way that they need to be supported, and not just having people be window dressing. So, how do how do we change the hearts and minds of Americans who don't even perceive themselves as being racist, but who have, you know, probably relatively deep implicit bias, which is a lot of what I was talking about earlier that I have experienced with, that I didn't even know I was experiencing, right? Is the deep, implicit bias of people who think that Black people are not as smart and not as whatever, as others, as whites or Asians, if it is a true awakening or call to action or whatever that's happening now that's also, you know, both sides are kind of awakened. Right?   Eve: [00:38:13] Right.   Charmaine: [00:38:13] But if it's happening and this leads to a reckoning that is not, hopefully, violent, and that doesn't tear us apart, I think that this is a very good thing because I do see more white people that I know than ever before trying to examine their own racism and ... people who never thought of themselves as racist, which is very important because if you think you're not racist and you're white, you are not woke, you are not awake. And so it's very important for, and it's not a blamey thing, it's just like, this is the work. This is the work that must be done, if we're going to change this world so that Black kids have an opportunity anywhere near what a white kid can have in this country. And, you know, begins at that level of zero, you know, like birth and what you are born into. What happens to you between the ages of zero and five, how your psychology is, develops and it's impacted by that and other things, and your sense of agency and capability and power in the world. That's got to start at zero. It is remediable to some extent along the way. Right? And I'm kind of proof of that.   Eve: [00:39:38] Right.   Charmaine: [00:39:39] But, you know, that's like one level of what has to happen. And, and making opportunities or providing opportunities for more Black people and people of color consciously, and not just consciously in the hiring and then bringing in, but then once people are in, giving them what they need, helping them to succeed and not just taking for granted, we did the hire, now we're done. So, there's that level of building opportunity. And I think that we need more Black people in the industry and just getting more Black people in the industry and whatever ways that happens will be a good thing. I did not know until, maybe until I was in graduate school what a developer was.   Eve: [00:40:32] Yeh, I was a bit older, actually.   Charmaine: [00:40:34] Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, it is amazing how many people who I told them, when I tell them I'm a developer, they're like, what is that? Still. Right? So ...   Eve: [00:40:43] Yeah.   Charmaine: [00:40:44] So, teaching these little, kids at a very young age, what the opportunities are in life in general outside of the what everybody thinks of as being a doctor, a lawyer, you know, or a business person, in general, that there is this whole world where how our physical world is created, that is dominated by this industry.   Eve: [00:41:09] Yeah. And, you know, real estate surely should play a really big role in, in shifting generational wealth as well. I'm not, I've been thinking about that, and I think there are ideas, all sorts of ways that that might happen. I'm not exactly sure how yet, but wealth has to do with property ...   Charmaine: [00:41:30] Right.   Eve: [00:41:30] ... not just cash.   Charmaine: [00:41:32] That's right. That's why the wealthiest people own, families in this country up until recently, were real estate families, by and large.   Eve: [00:41:40] Right.   Charmaine: [00:41:42] Now it's tech. But ...   Eve: [00:41:43] Yeah. How do you teach that? How do you make that shift, make that happen?   Charmaine: [00:41:50] You heard me say earlier that, you know, and I have this conversation. I've been having this conversation with a guy I met recently who's a Black guy, who's doing some investing, and he is about, you know, sort of the wealth building, as a Black person in the, in the industry. And I get that, and I understand that, and I don't not support that, but I cannot really abide wealth building amongst a very few people, while other people are out in the cold.   Eve: [00:42:25] Yeh.   Charmaine: [00:42:25] That's not sitting right with me anymore.   Eve: [00:42:29] Yes.   Charmaine: [00:42:29] So, I'm torn about it. I mean, you can hear it in my voice. I'm torn about it because I do want to see more Black people succeed, but I want to see a lot more Black people succeed. You know, not just a few.   Eve: [00:42:44] Yeah, yeah.   Charmaine: [00:42:45] So how do we do that? We spread the wealth. You know, we have to find ways to spread the wealth. And that goes back to my comment about needing a paradigm shift in how we think about our responsibilities as humans on the planet, to each other and to our children and to other people's children. I'm interested in building wealth. I'm just not interested in building ...   Eve: [00:43:12] Uber wealth.   Charmaine: [00:43:12]  ... yes, I'm not interested in being, you know (laughter) how many people in the world can have a net worth of ten million dollars? Can everybody? You know, is that a possibility? Is that a..   Eve: [00:43:27] It's an extra interesting calculation to do if you.   Charmaine: [00:43:30] Yeah. Is that a theoretical possibility even, you know? And ...   Eve: [00:43:30] That's really interesting. Or even a million, you know.   Charmaine: [00:43:38] Yeah. What are the, what are the trade offs there? And I don't know what they are. I just know that everybody can't be rich. So then, you know, then I back off, I keep backing away from that, what can everybody, what is enough? And I start with, I really start with, like housing. There's some things people should just absolutely, simply be entitled to. And housing, stable housing, stable, sanitary, decent housing is one of those things. And access to an education and the resources that you need to learn, that are not just about teachers and schools, but if you need, you know, help with your mental health or whatever you need help with to be somebody who's able to learn and be a real contributor. These are basic things. And then we, we do these basic things, we build a better world where there will be more of everybody, more opportunity for everybody.   Eve: [00:44:39] Yes. Well, you're going to make me cry, so I'm going to try harder. I hope everyone who listens will try harder, too. But I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. I feel awful ending it. But I'm going to now.   Charmaine: [00:44:56] Well, I'm looking forward to talking more with you. Yeah.   Eve: [00:45:00] I would love to meet you in person. And maybe there's some joint venture we can do. I love doing development and I love hearing about what, what you're working on. So, thank you very much.   Charmaine: [00:45:10] Thank you, Eve. It's really great talking and, we will be in touch.   Eve: [00:45:23] That was Charmaine Curtis, a real estate developer, a Black woman in a largely white, male industry. It's hard enough to be a real estate developer and make a living at it without those additional two strikes against you. But that is exactly what she is doing.   Eve: [00:46:03] You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website EvePicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities. Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Charmaine, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker, signing off to go make some change.

HAPPY MONDAY MOTIVATION! Welcome back to the weekly podcast, No More Excuses! Thank you for listening, mentioning this podcast with others, sharing it on your social... much like my guest on this week podcast regularly does! But mostly for investing in YOU! We all, at some point in our lives have used EXCUSES for WHY we stopped, quit, gave up and "used to [fill in the blank]" and also blamed family, weather, time, money and many MANY other things.  And, in last week's podcast, I shared an excerpt from my 2nd book, "How Badly Do You Want 'IT'?" and also, in my social media, gave you the link to download it! And, that's what you have to decide... How Badly Do You Want... "IT". Whatever IT is to you. How badly do you want to SUCCEED? To achieve a GOAL? To get that promotion? Lose weight? Run a marathon? Start a business? Increase sales... etc. etc.... RIGHT? It's easy to NOT change things up and give up! It's easier to find excuses as to WHY and much easier to blame than own it and try again! This week's podcast is also a VIDEO interview [click blue link to go to Youtube!] that I did with long-time listener, Nikki, who, as she said, "learned how to MOVE OVER her excuses and turned them into reasons, and didn't give up"!  She connected with me on Instagram and I've followed her back. I've watched HER journey. And, when she stepped away from her side-gig, she didn't give any of that bullshit. She just stepped away. And, when she came back, she gave NO EXCUSES! She was honest, discussed her REASON and, well, you'll have to listen in as to what happened and what helped her return! We also could have stopped the interview or not done it as a video because of the "weather" and "her internet went down", but, as you listen or watch it, you'll see that she, once again, did NOT use excuses, blame and bullshit, she got back on and we had a great conversation! She turned her excuses into reasons in her life, business... and this interview! So, listen or watch this week's podcast, and then watch social media for this week's challenge... FROM NIKKI! And, if you'd like to follow her on Instagram: @Nikkalicousfitness Have a great week and I look forward to hearing from you! Cheers! Sandi

 Meet Leo Brown from this season of The Amazing Race! He lives with diabetes, but his story isn’t a typical one. Leo was born with congenital hyperinsulinism, where the body makes too much insulin, and had almost his entire pancreas removed. Leo will share his unique story and tell us about running the race with his girlfriend, Alana. Learn more about congenital hyperinsulinism In Tell Me Something Good, babies! Weddings! And a football first for someone who’s been kicking t1d every day for a long time. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription: Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by Gvoke Hypo Pen, the first premixed auto injector for very low blood sugar, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:23 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  0:28 This week, meet Leo Brown, a contestant on this season of The Amazing Race who lives with diabetes. Now on the show, he's racing around the world with his girlfriend, Alana, but they had what could have been their biggest setback before the race even got started.   Leo Brown  0:42 I think I was actually on the flight to LA at the start line. When I realized I had left all my insulin at home. There was one thing I didn't remember it was in the fridge. It was lined up like little soldiers.   Stacey Simms  0:57 Oh my gosh. Well, Leo's story is not a typical diabetes one. He was born with congenital hyperinsulinism, where the body makes too much insulin and had almost his entire pancreas removed. He developed diabetes at age 19. And he'll share his unique story and tell us about the race In tell me something good babies, weddings, and a football first for someone who's been kicking T one D every day for a long time. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. I love The Amazing Race. I started watching when I was pregnant with my daughter Lea. And that was 19 years ago, I realized that talking to Leo and doing this episode Oh my gosh. Anyway, welcome. We aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. My son was diagnosed almost 14 years ago, when he was a toddler. I have a background in broadcasting and that is how you get the podcast. It has been two years since the last version of The Amazing Race aired and I really have been excited to see it come back. It's just great to see people traveling again. As soon as the first episode of the season aired in mid October, my eagle eyed diabetes friends started posting photos of Leo at one point he's playing the steel drums and you can clearly see the Dexcom on his stomach. I like many of you jumped to the conclusion that he lives with type one. But it turns out his diabetes story as I've already teased a bit is very unique. And we'll talk about that with him in just a moment. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop. One Drop is diabetes management for the 21st century. One Drop was designed by people with diabetes. For people with diabetes. One Drops glucose meter looks nothing like a medical device. It's sleek, compact and seamlessly integrates with the award winning One Drop mobile app, sync all your other health apps to One Drop to keep track of the big picture and easily see health trends. And with a One Drop subscription you get unlimited test strips and lancets delivered right to your door. Every One Drop plan also includes access to your own certified diabetes coach have questions but don't feel like waiting for your next doctor's visit. Your personal coach is always there to help go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the One Drop logo to learn more. My guest this week is Leo Brown from Season 32 of The Amazing Race. His partner on the race is Alana Folsom, they have been dating for less than a year when the show started. And they're now married. So we don't know how they did on the show. But that's a great outcome already. Leo and I recorded this interview over zoom and there is a video version which I've put on the YouTube channel. And that's just Diabetes Connections over on YouTube. But there's two things you need to know as you listen, the audio is a bit sketchy here and there, Leo and Alana upgraded their Wi Fi during the interview. Literally during the interview, she called and got the Wi Fi upgraded we stopped and started a bit before that happened. I took all of that stuff out. But you can hear some stuff here and there. And if you see the video, you will see the shirt that I am referring to as we start out here. But if you're only going to listen, I promise you will get the gist. Leo, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you spending some time with me tonight.   Leo Brown  4:23 Thanks for having me excited to have a chat.   Stacey Simms  4:26 All right. Well, first of all, I have to ask you about your shirt. Because I saw that hashtag on Twitter that you guys were using. What is beloved lovers? I wanted   Unknown Speaker  4:35 to hear you say it first.   Stacey Simms  4:37 Wait, let me do my radio voice! Tell me about – beloved lovers.   Leo Brown  4:41 Oh, absolutely. So Alana I got married over a month ago. And we have a Ketubah which is a Jewish wedding contract. And in a traditional Ketubah it says you know the man this and that husband this wife that right and We wanted our Ketubah to be egalitarian. And we didn't really see a need to indicate our gender. But that's not really what what relationship is about. And so we talked to our Rabbi who's extremely, you know, open minded and accommodating. And he came up with some text that is egalitarian. And the translation from Hebrew to English was beloved lover, and really like that. And so in the in the wedding, which we live streamed, because we couldn't invite most of the people we wanted to, because the COVID, he explained that and there was a live chat on the YouTube live stream that was happening, everyone was like, beloved lover, and then they started writing hashtag beloved lovers. And then I think somehow that got picked up by some news source that like follows Amazing Race, or it was like doing some promo about Amazing Race. And so when they were introducing the teams, and it was just this little this article that got that was going around, they said, Will and James dating Hung, and Chee married Leo and Alana lovers. And so our cast has all had already kind of decided since our wedding because they had all called into the wedding that we were having, like beloved lovers. And so we went with that. And this is our beloved lovers shirt on the back and says Leon & Alana, and a little globe, that is where beloved lovers came from our relationship and our wedding.   Stacey Simms  6:25 So okay, my husband and I have been married for 21 years. I'm making a note for our when we renew our vows for our tuba, maybe at 25. Oh, yeah, back and change the language   Leo Brown  6:35 as a couple that had to severely downsize our wedding. We are strong believers in renewing vows, or just having another wedding whenever you feel. Stacey Simms Well, you know, weird way you kind of put the honeymoon first with The Amazing Race. So let's talk about that. Because you both were I mean, I didn't know if I could ask you about your relationship, just because you're never sure on the show. I've seen I've watched the show for years and people are dating that they break up before the race even ends. Or maybe they stay together. Well, obviously, this had a really happy ending. But take us back to the beginning. When did you all decide to sign up for the race? You were just dating? Leo Brown Yep. So we met on Tinder in January of the year of the race. And then on our second date, I think we were watching The Amazing Race with my roommates at the time because they were fans and a lot. I was a fan and I hadn't seen an episode or two. And that was the first time when it was my roommates who said you better be great on the race. And I thought yeah, sure, I think we could be and, you know, nothing else really came of it. And then six months later, Ilana and I moved in together, I think it was our second night of living together when we had it. All right, let's make this video. Let's send it in. Let's see what happens. And that was in July. And then a couple weeks later, we got a call from casting. And then over the course of the summer and fall that we went to LA a couple times. And then the start line was our 10 month anniversary. So that was a that was a really fast and an incredible progression that we weren't expecting,   Stacey Simms  8:11 we will return to the Amazing Race to your relationship to your reading lots of questions there. But tell me about your experience with diabetes. Very unique. What happened? Tell us your story. Sure. So I   Leo Brown  8:23 can start long before I knew I had diabetes. Because I wasn't diagnosed with diabetes till I was 19. As an infant, though, I was diagnosed with congenital hyperinsulinism, which I always explain as kind of like the opposite of diabetes, instead of making not enough insulin, I made way too much. So it's a rare genetic condition that you're born with and usually presents at birth. And it's an emergency, once you're born, you have low low low blood sugars. And one of the biggest challenges is that doctors who delivered you and you know, like neonatal care doctors might not have ever heard of congenital hyperinsulinism. And to make matters worse, infants sometimes have low blood sugars, as like a natural and okay thing. And so many parents, including my own then are told initially some version of Oh, that's nothing really to worry about. And the story you hear time and time again from these congenital hyperinsulinism parents is I knew something was off like I'm not a medical professional, but my child needs help. And in my case, will that eventually led was to subtotal pancreatectomy ease. And so the first one was when I was six weeks old, and that was like 95% of my pancreas was removed a big scar across my stomach from that. And then when I was six months old, much of remained was also removed in a second subtotal pancreatectomy and after that, by the time I could remember, basically, I have like very early memories of my blood sugar being tested because my blood sugar was of interest at that point, everyone needed to know what it was and why it was okay. And for the first couple years, my parents had to do a lot to help manage that. And lots of doctors involved and try different drugs and eventually figured out something that could sort of stabilize my blood sugar and help me start to live a normal life. And by the time I could remember, I pretty much did live a normal life. You know, I went to kindergarten like any kid, I had a scar, I had a second scar from a feeding tube that was called my second belly button, because I have an outie. But then there was this any nearby. And as life went on, I felt very much like a normal kid who had this, you know, this complicated beginning, but I thought that was all kind of behind me.   Stacey Simms  10:56 But let me ask you before you go on, and I'm sure your parents have shared with you what actually happens when when a child is born with low blood sugar? Like you said, it's not as though something they're not often looking for that kind of thing. And it's extremely dangerous. Do they just are they poking your fingers when you're an infant? Or the you know what happened? Yeah,   Leo Brown  11:15 my parents may remember, even better memories than I do. But I know that you test a baby's blood sugar at, you know, most hospitals, good hospitals when they're born. So I mean, I think that tests This was 30 years ago. So longer, or like longer land sets, but generally a lot has remained the same in in that you test a baby's blood sugar. And if it's low, if you're lucky, someone says, Yeah, could be serious. It could be totally fine. But I think they had a lot of experience testing their tiny baby's blood sugar.   Stacey Simms  11:54 Did you go I guess my question is, did you go home? And then have these emergencies where you had to be re, you know, brought back your parents didn't know what's going on? Or did they know before they even left the hospital?   Right back to Leo, answering that question and explaining more about congenital hyperinsulinism. But first, Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. It's hard to think of something that's changed our diabetes management as much as the Dexcom, share and follow apps. The amazing thing to me is how it's helped us talk less about diabetes, that's a wonderful thing about share and follow as a caregiver or parent, spouse, whatever, you can help the person with diabetes manage in the way that works for your individual situation. Internet connectivity is required to access Dexcom, follow separate follow app required, Learn more at Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo. Now back to Leo, who by the way, has a great Dexcom story later on in the interview. Oh my goodness. But here, we are talking about his parent’s early days of his very scary diagnosis.   Leo Brown  13:04 I believe my parents didn't have a clear diagnosis before I was discharged at the very beginning. And then within weeks, if not days, I was brought back, you know, they said he's having, you know, he had a seizure. He's not getting better, like this low blood sugar thing is, is here to say and I I'm again, my parents would have a lot more to say. But at some point, they were equipped with a blood sugar testing kit to you know, check me regularly at home. But I think that within those first couple of days and weeks, they quickly discerned that something was off. My parents used to have this box and at some point I said I need the box because once in a while I need to be able to explain to people not in an interview, but in a doctor's office what exactly happened. But yeah, it you know, it from what I know congenital hyperinsulinism and other stories I've heard from other parents, honestly, that I can tell you as much about that as my own early early story. The prevailing pattern is that the parents are told that the low blood sugar is not something they need to really worry about, because babies have that sometimes. And right, a large part of what the community and an organization I'm working with congenital hyperinsulinism International is trying to help medical community understand is you need a checklist saying this could be congenital hyperinsulinism. Obviously research for early diagnosis, treatment, but early diagnosis is in some ways more important because if people aren't looking for it, then it is a you know, it's a very rapid escalation. As you can imagine. It's just like if you were getting injections of insulin that you didn't ask for.   Stacey Simms  14:54 Yeah, scary stuff. Yeah. So you have these operations. You're growing up just fine. But you have been told your family's been told that you will eventually most likely develop type one diabetes or something that's very similar.   Leo Brown  15:06 Actually, that didn't become what people were told until more recently, this, I think, has to do with better research and sort of documentation about the progression of the disease also, as early treatments have become more effective, and there's still a long way to go there. I'm you know, most people don't get to go to kindergarten like I did without some sort of special needs. Or even just like having a continuous glucose monitor, right? You might not be I mentioned special needs, because like, as soon as your blood sugars are low, you could have that could affect your brain in some way. But also, even if you don't have that consequence of the low blood sugars, you might still have a lot of trouble controlling your blood sugar's early in life or throughout your life. And so the fact that I didn't have any of that, from nursery school, kindergarten and on through the beginning of college is sort of unusual. But to your question, my parents were not told that I would get diabetes, part of the reason, I think is because my pancreas was making so much insulin, there was a thought that removing just the right amount would lead to me being just fine. Or, you know, you might not remove enough like, I might still have low blood sugars, like there was no assumption that I would have diabetes, although my understanding is more recently, that's become more of a an assumption that like you do this type of operation. And then no one knows when, but eventually you will have diabetes,   Stacey Simms  16:38 or and now I have one more dumb question or the surgery for we move on. I know, everybody wants to know about you, and the Dexcom and The Amazing Race, right. But I'm so curious, we think about the pancreas, and I think most people in the diabetes community understands that it's not dead, you know, it didn't stop doing everything it's supposed to do. But we don't think about it as doing anything much more than producing insulin, you have like this much of a pancreas left, and you have been living this happy, healthy life, even though we're gonna talk about your diagnosis. Are people generally surprised when they hear that it's, it's more of an education for you to do? Because I gotta tell you, when you told me that, I thought that's not at all what I felt what happened?   Leo Brown  17:13 Yeah, I wish I could read the logs of my pancreas to tell you exactly what it's doing and what it's failing to do, like if you were trying to debug it. And, you know, there's not an easy way of getting in there. And and finding that information. I mean, you really would have to, you know, I engage any doctors I encounter and try to get those kinds of answers out of them. Like, what is it that my pancreas is not doing? Like, I know, it produces all sorts of hormones, other than insulin, I don't have the background to even ask the right questions, right. But all I can say is that with a little bit of pancreas, you can get a little bit of function. And I guess enough such that I don't I'm not diagnosed with anything other than diabetes. But it is a great question. And there's not a ton of patients to do this research on. Nor is it something that you'd want to interfere with someone's life to do research on, like, you were to poke around in there, like you could cause a problem. So on some level, you kind of just keep an eye on it. But one thing I do quickly want to add is that my parents and I, after I was diagnosed with diabetes, we were really kind of kicking ourselves like, doesn't it make sense? You took my pancreas out? Why didn't anyone mentioned that? This could just it seems like common sense. I mean, not I'd never thought about diabetes before. But my parents had certainly thought a lot about blood sugar. And they were like, course, like diabetes?   Stacey Simms  18:43 Nah, I gotta say, in everybody's defense, I think I would just be very happy that my baby who was going super low, all of a sudden, they figured out was wrong. They fixed it. You went to kindergarten, if the doctors aren't telling you why we're going to   Leo Brown  18:57 we think, clear. And you know, we weren't testing my blood sugar after I was, you know, in first or second grade, like and, and there's no indication that there was any need to at that time, no symptoms. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  19:10 So what happened? Did you go to college and start having issues or did it come suddenly. So   Leo Brown  19:14 I went to college, I look back and I wonder when the symptoms really began. But by the time I was diagnosed, I was working. I was with summer after my freshman year, I was working at like a family run vegetable farm in the Berkshires in Western Mass where I was in college. And I thought I was you know, I'm a pretty fit person. I'm not a college athlete. And I was with a couple of college athletes on on this farm. And so that was what made me kind of doubt that will maybe I'm not cut out for this. But long story short, I couldn't really make it through the day. There was a moment I remember where I was trying to get into the pickup truck that we were driving around, and I could get in but I had to like I would just like go put my hands on the wheel and just use my arms to just like, drag myself into the pickup truck. And that was odd. I'm not used to having that much trouble with something that seems simple. Why wasn't I using my legs? Right? I probably was, but it was I wasn't using my body the way I normally would. And then I also, again, no surprise to the community, I had to pee all the time. These guys I was working with were thinking like, what's wrong with Leo, like, all he does is go to the bathroom. And he's not very good at any of this manual labor. And I was starting to think maybe I just am sickly. I'm just someone who is not as fit and capable as I thought I was. You know, I'm not one of these college athletes. So who knows. So I went home for a couple weeks, I said it was a vacation, you know, I'd kind of plan to take two weeks off at some point in the summer anyway, I was at my girlfriend's house at the time hanging out with her and her family, just in the living room, really low key, like someone was watching TV, someone's reading the newspaper, we might have been playing board game, and I was just lying on the floor, basically, I would only get up to go to the kitchen and get like a tall glass of milk. And I think I went through an entire gallon of milk. And then I you know, I was like super comfortable in this environment. So I wasn't pretending to feel any better than I was. But I also wasn't, I wasn't unhappy. I just had no energy. I was like, I was completely down for the count. And her mom is a scientist. And she said, You're not well, and you should go to the doctor, you should go home and go to the doctor. And I did and they tested my blood sugar. And it was 650. And so that was you know, right away, they put me on insulin. And skipping forward a bit. I went back to the farm Two weeks later. And they were astonished by like, I'd gained 20 pounds back. I had an I could do stuff. Do you remember how different you felt? Once I was on insulin right away? I had, yeah, like 10 times the energy, things felt easy, I think is the biggest thing. Like I wasn't unhappy. I just was confused by why I couldn't do what the type of thing that I thought I would be able to do. And again, I'm not. I don't think of myself as physically fit first and foremost. So in the back of my mind, I was always thinking maybe I'm not as fit as I thought I was versus an athlete, student or professional, who would sort of automatically know my performance is going down like something's wrong. I didn't think that.   Stacey Simms  22:33 All right, well, that's a fun way to start talking about the amazing race. Because I have been watching this show for I realized recently 19 years. And I've always thought, oh, that'd be so fun to do. And then I remember each season, why would never succeed, because the athletic ability you need just to survive and run from place to place is unbelievable. So I have lots of questions from listeners. I have lots of my own questions about the race. But the really the biggest one we get is, you know, how do you manage diabetes in a situation like that with travel and running? So if we can ask, we all saw you with the Dexcom while you're playing his steel drums and episode one that got everybody's attention and diabetes,   Leo Brown  23:12 even I didn't notice that in the clip.   Stacey Simms  23:15 Do you do if you don't mind it? Again, this is kind of personal. Do you take insulin pens? Do you use a pump anything like that? Yeah,   Leo Brown  23:21 I've tried different things over the years. And again, because my diabetes isn't type one or type two, it's hard to sort of draw comparisons. But the number one thing I do to manage my diabetes is through diet. So I eat a very low carb diet. And that is something I've always tried to do as much as I can have over the years. And at times that's enabled me actually to get off of insulin. However, there are so many variables. And on the race, I was not on regular insulin prior to the race, but I brought insulin on the race and had to use it in particular, because I would encounter food situations that I would not have chosen. And I also just didn't know what I was going to encounter. And that was also why I had the Dexcom, which I had. Well, I shouldn't say that's why I had the Dexcom. I've been using the Dexcom for some time. And that is also part of what has enabled me to kind of use insulin as I need it more recently, just to provide a little bit of context. When I was diagnosed, I did use Lantus and homologue, kind of a traditional prescription of insulin, as I discovered that I could use less insulin, if I ate fewer carbs, I over time would sort of rebalance my insulin with my diet. There are times that I wasn't using the insulin that I should have been. And I would sort of tell myself that I didn't need it. And if I didn't test my blood sugar, then I couldn't prove that I needed it. And then more recently, since the race and I'm not sure if this is you know an age thing or like an age pancreas thing, I have found that it's sort of floating higher Even with like, when I'm sure I'm, and legitimately, perfectly executing a low carb diet, and it's higher than I would have, you know, not high like 121 3140. Like, I wouldn't see the numbers like that if I had everything else controlled, and yet, somehow I do. But then if I start running more frequently, it kind of goes back down. So there's all these variables. And for the race, when there's so much that I can't control, I knew the Dexcom would be a CGM in general would be crucial. And having insulin available would be crucial. So I didn't want to go with an omni pod, because I got a couple of infections, actually, from the site, not saying that Omnipod, but just in general, like, I don't have a ton of body fat. And so like, I think there was just the wrong spot. And that can happen with any device. But for the race, I really want to do avoid that kind of thing. That's the sort of thing that could have actually put me out of the race, you know, if I had like a real infection, and so what I ended up bringing on the race was syringes, like old fashioned syringes with a vial of human slug. And the reason I went that route, actually, is because oh, no, I actually think that was just all I had at the time, because I had the syringes around for the token like a true diabetic. Yeah, I had the syringes and they were around from the Omnipod. And then I have to include this, which I had forgotten about, but we were at the hotel ready to go, you know, we're not sure when this starts going to be. And I think I was actually on the flight to LA at the start line. When I realized I had left all my insulin at home. There's one thing I didn't remember, it was in the fridge, it was lined up like little soldiers. So there was a whole production of gold, having someone having a production assistant go to Walgreens, like paying out of pocket, months later figuring out reimbursement. So that was it was a major part of preparing for the race.   Stacey Simms  27:05 Okay, I have to tell you, I have so many friends with so many stories of forgetting insulin and for getting supplies you have just made our day. So thank you for acknowledging that you're human. Oh, yeah, that's crazy. Oh, you went over here. So the other question was, this question kind of comes from the food? I thought I knew the answer this after all the years, but I wasn't sure. How do they feed you on the race? We see the crazy food contests. What are you eating day to day? And then the question was, how did you manage that?   Leo Brown  27:31 Yep. So I only ate in between legs. Mainly because I didn't want the distraction the production, the possible possibility of a higher low blood sugar during legs. Now keep in mind, I was not using a basal insulin at this point. And so I didn't really need to worry about my blood sugar floating low unless I had a short acting insulin in my system. And with the adrenaline happening during the race, I did not feel the need to be eating. And then in between legs, teams stay in a hotel, the race provides food. I'm being a little careful, because we're not supposed to talk too much about behind the scenes stuff. But what I'll say is that, you know, the food I would ask for I would eat what I could have it. And if I needed more, I would ask for more. That brings me to the topic of what I generally which is if you gave me a slice of pizza, I would eat only the top. In fact, that's a business idea that one of the other teams and I the blondes and I want to start pizza tops. I know we haven't made any progress on that. But like pizza tops, very delicious. Sometimes you can even find someone who's lactose intolerant, and you split the slice of pizza horizontally. So that's the kind of food strategy or trick I would use. There was food available to all the teams and sometimes I would have to ask for a little bit more to make sure that I can eat enough. Okay,   Stacey Simms  28:57 I am a Jewish mother. You were not super hungry during the race. I mean, again, I know we can't we have to be very careful. We don't know how far you got. We know you've got through episode one. But I'm thinking even an episode when you were swimming. You were running around or playing the drums. It's a long day. We don't have to eat a whole lot of adrenaline.   Leo Brown  29:16 And I you know, I always had a bar. I always had sugar tablets with me. So I should point that out. But you know, your heart's racing. You're competitive. Your adrenaline's high. And on that note, you're probably going to ask me about this. My blood sugar went high from that. Yeah, right. So like my blood sugar shoots up when I play coed softball in a league, you know, that I pay to be here. Right? Like it's not a competitive situation. But like, you know, The pitcher winds up. I'm at third base and like my heart's racing, and then I look at my Dexcom later and my but the first time this started happening, I was so confused. I know. I didn't eat anything like and yeah, so that happened a ton during the race to the point where I didn't Security actually said the security staff was who was really tasked with sort of keeping an eye on me from a medical perspective. And they, they would say, like, you can't let your blood sugar get that high. And I would say, well, like, Yeah. Like, what? Also what do you want me to do take insulin? Like, I don't think you want that. It'll go back down pretty quickly when I calm down, but right now, yeah, like, I've always found it's not worth trying to treat the adrenaline highs, because then I don't really under like, I can't do the same calculation around eating something like, How high is it gonna go? How excited was I? Like, how long will it last? Honestly, I've thought about trying to control that sort of thing through mindfulness, or meditation and sort of just like slowing down my adrenaline in general, although I don't want to change who I am as a person and you know, being hated about things. So that's a trade off, I guess.   Stacey Simms  30:55 Yeah, I think adrenaline highs from sports is just something that most people with diabetes that I know learn to figure out and kind of work around and not dose for, as I said, because you it's it's so tricky tolerate, um, time zones came up, too. But since you're not dosing basal insulin, that's not really a question, right? I mean, time zones, I assumed would affect you, but not really in the same way as someone was dancing that way. What   Leo Brown  31:17 Yeah, I didn't go space all during the race. And I think time zones affected all of us in an odd way. But, you know, we weren't sleeping in 24 hour cycles, we were sleeping during breaks between the legs, and the legs were not, you know, they didn't start when the sun came up, and when the sun went down, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think if I had been dosing basal, I would have had to just, you know, set a timer and decide that's when the next day began.   Stacey Simms  31:46 All right, any tricks and tips to keep your Dexcom on? Did it stay on in the water? Did it stay on with the sweat? And the reason the whole thing? That was what I was thinking about?   Leo Brown  31:54 Yeah, incredibly, it did. Since the race, I've gotten more experience with using the Dexcom and have started to use three M tape. And at this point, I just put it on preemptively. And aggressively. So it's like all over the site. I was, I think, kind of lucky during the race, the biggest issue I had with a Dexcom. And this gives you some insight into like the level of excitement and my state of mind was, at one point, we were on an airplane, and I was checking my blood sugar on, I actually was using, not my phone, but the little device that it comes with, because we didn't have our phones. So I was fiddling around with this device. And my mind's racing a mile a minute, right, like probably the entire race. I mean, to like, say, exit out of the part of the app that I'm in. And I decommission the sensor. Oh, no. Unlike the I was installing the sensor, no, I installed the sensor. And then I said the sensor is over right. Now, it is not possible to reverse that. And I was so distraught. And olana pointed out at that moment, that I had brought four sensors for 30 days, because I brought an extra and that was when I used the extra. At that point. I didn't have an extra. But at least I had that one. That was like, I don't know if there was a moment in the race when I was more horrified then when I installed Dexcom and then immediately decommissioned it.   Stacey Simms  33:32 Oh my gosh, yeah. I think a lot of us have done that. You guys were very early in your relationship, as you said. Very brave thing to do. exciting thing to do. Did you have fun? I mean, you're married.   Leo Brown  33:44 Yeah, we had a lot of fun on the race. It was also I will say a very stressful experience in general. You know, our first time on TV, you know, we really wanted to keep racing. You might have noticed in the first episode, we were on the second flight, we were in 10th place at a certain point, the oil drums were huge and hard to handle. The fish numbers challenge was horrible. Try remembering for numbers and the numbers were okay. But the colors. The problem with the colors is that what are you reading the fish nose to tail left to right, like you flip it over upside down? Right? It's sort of like you can reverse the fish in all different directions. And we were just like, really, things were not getting any easier. And then the skill drum challenge Fortunately, I felt pretty comfortable with so that was Trinidad and Tobago, and we had a blast, but we also had a lot of anxiety. You know, as far as our relationship, I think we kind of knew what we were getting into, in a way. I mean, I suppose it was more intense in many ways than you could have imagined. But we knew we wanted to do this big adventure like we knew it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. We wanted to travel we wanted to get to know each other. We wanted to get away from our jobs like It was a no brainer. And I think that our relationship from day one has always been that we want to do things together, and not like shy away from experiences. And we're just both wanting the same thing out of life in so many ways. And so it would have been against our nature to hesitate to do this thing together.   Stacey Simms  35:20 So this was taped in 2018. This is pre COVID. But this is a long time ago. How hard is it been? I mean, I don't know exactly when it wrapped up, or if you know, when it ramped up production. But how hard has it been for you guys to sit on this for all this time? You can't say anything?   Leo Brown  35:35 Yeah, it's been a big secret. And it's been a huge relief to share. We were able to share with close family, initially, MBAs, everything we couldn't share with work, we couldn't share with friends, we couldn't share it, my friend who was house sitting for us. And we have been able to stay in touch with the cast. We're really close with the rest of the cast. The fact that it took so long to air is I think part of that, like we've had a chance to see each other go through stages of life together. A couple of them were at our wedding, everyone else was live streamed into the wedding. So having the cast as sort of a support system through this has been really huge. It's just a Yeah, it's a huge relief to be able to share that. That's unbelievable. And I have to say, just watching the first episode, and I haven't watched the show in a few years. And now I'm back in I'm very excited. Good. But it was a joy. Great season. Well, I'm glad to hear it. But I gotta tell you, it was a joy to see travel. It was exciting to see the world again. escapist is voyeuristic. Yeah, it's, it's what we need right now. Of course, being able to see myself through those things is a trip and feel so great. But also, you know, just being able to see people interacting, like we used to, I'm sure there's going to be some airplane footage. The first episode was notably absent airplane footage, which I think everyone was sort of would you know, that's what you want to see right now is like everyone like squeezing onto a plane. But there will be some of that the carnival in Trinidad. Imagine, you know that today? You want to see that back to the way it was, when it can be. But yeah, I do think it's the perfect show to be airing at this time, unlike Big Brother, where you're locked in a house. And it's kind of the same as you know, you get everyone tested, and then you can be in the house. But the race is obviously the opposite. And we are we're all hoping they'll be able to you know, keep running it again soon. You know,   Stacey Simms  37:39 I I would like to know, and I, again, I've watched the show for 19 years, you know, what's the crew? Like? What's it like traveling with those other people that we never see?   Leo Brown  37:48 Yeah, first of all, the crew is many in number. And they're an integral part of the experience. They are supportive. They're excited to be there. They do incredible physical things with you know, 50 pounds of equipment, trying to keep up with us. We're trying to go as fast as we can. And then they're, you know, jogging alongside us. They haven't a job that is would have been hard to imagine. I mean, now I've kind of seen them do it. But you know, they travel around the world. A lot of them work on other shows. Some of them have been doing the race since the beginning. And now we follow a bunch of them on Instagram, and they all post great photos of their non office jobs. Like to them   Stacey Simms  38:28 you've got the goats, right, and you're running to the mat. Where are they? They're behind you. They're in front of you. They're trying not to get trampled by goats. I mean, it's got to be an incredible skill on their part to   Leo Brown  38:37 Yeah, so also keep in mind that there's equipment like drones that they can deploy. So generally speaking, 90% of the footage, I would think is from a person carrying a gigantic camera, just running around. But if you think about like the water challenges, actually, I think they've had cameras on boats, you know, I probably shouldn't get too into that. You'd probably just do drones. Yeah, sometimes it's   Stacey Simms  39:06 drones. And what's Phil like, Phil is nice. Don't tell me if Phil isn’t nice.   Leo Brown  39:10 No, feels great. Phil is just like he is on the show. Except if anything quicker wittier than you might expect, like none of it's scripted. As far as I know. He's really fun, really warm, and he wants us to do our best. You know, one thing I did want to ask before I let you go, I found you on Twitter because someone in the diabetes community was talking directly to you and saying, Hey, we watched the show. My daughter just got to Jack's calm and saw you with yours on TV and it made our night. You are while of unusual case in the diabetes community. You are in the community now. And I'm curious what that's like for you. When you see people reacting so positively and so excited to see you on the show. I was definitely surprised that people picked up on it right away. You know, I didn't see the Dexcom in the episode. And it's an incredible feeling to have that be an inspiration for people. And I know how I felt when I was first diagnosed with diabetes. And I didn't know what I would be able to do, it took me some time to realize that I wasn't going to get a break from it. And to kind of there's the diagnosis, which was a relief, actually, because then I could do things that I wanted to be doing and thought I could be doing, I just, you know, they told me, I just have to do this and that, and then I can live my life. And then it was probably a couple months later, where it sort of hit me that, you know, I wouldn't be able to go back to the way it was before. And I remember my sister who's a couple years older, she was watching this happen. And I was a freshman in college, I just finished up freshman year of college. And I had to I realized, and especially because I was making such an effort to manage with diet, I realized like, I wouldn't be eating birthday cake, I wouldn't be eating a hot dog button. And the way she saw it was that I had to grow up really fast, because I have a sweet tooth. Like I love candy. And I don't eat cake. I mean, I eat dark, dark chocolate, but I don't eat candy. And oh, what I'm about to go make for myself after this interview is a hot chocolate, which is made of half and half and cocoa powder, no sugar, and I mix it together and I heat it up in a saucepan. And it gets like to be to me indistinguishable from like a chocolate syrup that I want to drink. But it's got no sugar. So I recommend that. Anyhow, I'm on a tangent. It's really exciting to me to be able to hopefully, give people who were in my shoes. I think the person who commented that was her daughter's first couple days with Dexcom. So I remember what that was like. And on one hand being really hopeful that I had a solution for myself. But on the other hand, accepting that, you know, there were real compromises. The solution was not one that I was always going to love. But for the race, those are solutions that helped me run the race. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  42:13 Well, I can't thank you enough for jumping on so quickly for sharing your story. And for being so open about everything. And thanks for hanging through the technical stuff, too. I appreciate.   Leo Brown  42:24 I think we got a lot I got us a Wi Fi upgrade in the course of this interview. So she's she's busy. Behind the Scenes love it.   Stacey Simms  42:32 Yeah, I appreciate you doing that so much. So look, we'll check in. We'll see how it goes. And maybe we'll follow up. But thanks again for spending so much time with me. Okay,   Leo Brown  42:42 thanks a lot, Stacey.   Announcer  42:49 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  42:55 More information on the foundation that Leo talked about. I will also link up stuff on hyperinsulinism. If you'd like to learn more, all of that at Diabetes connections.com. Click on the episode homepage where there is also a transcription and I'll put a link into the amazing race because they've got some cute behind the scenes videos each week. And oh my gosh, I hope they win. You know as we're taping this, the second episode hasn't even aired yet. So I don't know if they've made it to the third episode. And but you know how this works. You've been with me with other contestants. We've had people from the Titan games and from the baking shows the Food Network kids baking show, American Ninja Warrior, you know, the Christmas light. We've had people from all different reality shows and you never know but it's always great to talk to them and just making it to the show is a pretty incredible achievement way. I hope they went Tell me something good coming up in just a moment. But first diabetes Connections is brought to you by Gvoke Hypo Penn and almost everyone who takes insulin has experienced a low blood sugar and that can be scary. A very low blood sugar is really scary. And that's where GMO hypo pen comes in. It's the first auto injector to treat very low blood sugar Gvoke Hypo Pen is pre mixed and ready to go with no visible needle. That means it's easy to use in usability studies 99% of people were able to give Gvoke correctly. I'm so glad to have something new. Find out more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Gvoke logo Gvoke should not be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma visit Jeeva glucagon.com slash risk.   Tell me something good. This peak is full of weddings and babies and celebrations. Congratulations to so many people in the community who took a big step this month. Rob Howe got married in early October so congratulations to Rob and to Erica. Rob is the founder of diabetics doing things the host of that podcast and and so much more. It is Rob that he's my Instagram guru, but I'm so bad at Instagram. I once I think I once was it Rob I once called him through Facebook messaging or Instagram messaging, I don't even know. I don't know how I did it. He was so polite. He was so nice. I felt like I was 75 years old. It was, it was not great. But congratulations to rob and Erica, who had a beautiful backyard wedding, you know, as we have to do these days, we wish them many years of health and happiness. Congratulations to Patrick Mertes, who had a baby with his beautiful wife, Patrick is one half of the team that made up 50 and 50. And these two guys who decided to go around the country last year, and climb the highest peak in all 50 states and try to do that in 50 days. And Patrick completed it Michael, his partner had an injury, halfway through and completed it. But later on, they did something else recently called race along the trace, which was three states. And 460 miles, it looks like a bike ride. He called it the last hurrah before fatherhood. So we'll we'll catch up with him and talk about that. But Patrick is also the director of the diabetes camp where my son goes every summer. So we are excited to see how a camp guy tackles fatherhood, I'm sure he's gonna do an amazing job because he's corralled all those kids for all those years. And finally, congratulations to Ken Rodenheiser, who also had a baby in October. He's a pediatric CDE in Philadelphia, and I think it's at the hospital where he himself was diagnosed years ago. But he has been a very big part of the children with diabetes organization and the friends for life conference. I believe he leads the tween program there, Ken and I have gone back and forth for years about getting him on the show. And we will work it out very soon. But I just wanted to highlight him in this segment and say congratulations to him and his wife and their babies name is Elliot, this adorable little girl. And I just realized as I'm reading this, I didn't put two and two together. But my next Tell me something good is also an Elliott. But this is Elliott Fry. He is the former kicker and all time leading scorer for the University of South Carolina, he lives with type one. And earlier this month, he kicked his first field goal in the NFL for the Atlanta Falcons in the Carolinas. Elliott is very well known for working with kids for being really out front with JDRF. And just being you know, out there as a great role model and example of somebody who plays sports and plays them at the highest level with type one. So it was really exciting to see him get that very first field goal in the NFL. And that's Tell me something good. Do you have something for me send it my way, Stacey at Diabetes connections.com. You can also post in the Facebook group, you don't have to have a baby or get married. It can be as easy as your son or daughter did their first sight change, without crying and running away oh my goodness, that used to be such an ordeal with Benny, anything that feels momentous anything you want to celebrate with the diabetes community, I would really love to know about you can go ahead and tell me something good.   It's hard to believe that it's going to be November in a couple of days. And I know we're all stressed out about the election and the possible aftermath. But it's also diabetes Awareness Month. And I don't know how that's gonna get any play this year with everything else that's going on in the world. But I'm gonna try and I always say diabetes Awareness Month is for the non diabetes community. I mean, we're aware every day of the year, this is our chance to educate. So I have a few things in mind to try to get the word out in other media. And I won't be talking so much about that here. But I'll share if anything exciting happens. But I am going to be doing two different things. If you're on Instagram, I will be having a contest I'm probably gonna start that the second week of November because I want to get past this election to that's just going to be a fun giveaway, to celebrate each other to be part of diabetes awareness. It's going to be fun and easy. I have some great companies lined up already that want to donate stuff and give it to you. I mean, you work hard all year round. Let's celebrate a little bit. And we have a big episode milestone, the numbers I'm so excited to share this with you. The second one is going to be on Facebook only. So we're going to have an Instagram only and a Facebook only. And the Facebook is going to be a little bit more work on your part. But the prize is going to be bigger, that one's going to be a cash prize. So I will keep you posted. The best way to keep track is to be in the Facebook group. Or to subscribe to the newsletter. If you're not already subscribed to go to Diabetes connections.com the cute little please sign up should pop up. But if it doesn't just scroll all the way to the bottom and you can sign up for the newsletter right there. So two contests coming up. I want to make it easy for you. I think it's gonna be fun. We just need a little brightness around here. And I hope I can provide some of that. All right thank you to my editor John Bukenas from audio editing solutions. thank you as always for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Benny  49:46 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged

God helps those who help themselves. Right? It may be beneficial to read these chapters before listening.

"If I only knew then what I know now..." We've all wondered how we would do things differently if given the chance for a do-over. Here's how Rand Fishkin applied the lessons learned from the past to the launch of his new startup, SparkToro. This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, SparkToro Founder Rand Fishkin talks about starting over. Rand rose to marketing stardom as the Founder and CEO of Moz, where he became known as one of the foremost experts on SEO in the world.  When he exited the company a few years ago and founded SparkToro, he reflected on the lessons learned from his experience at Moz to develop a fresh new approach to everything from raising investment funding, to speaking out about issues some might consider controversial and the development of a marketing strategy for his startup. Check out the full episode, or read the transcript below, for details. Resources from this episode: Visit the SparkToro website Get Rand's book Lost and Founder Follow Rand on Twitter Email Rand at rand@sparktoro.com Transcript Kathleen (00:00): Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I am your host Kathleen Booth. And this week I am incredibly excited to tell you that my guest is none other than Rand Fishkin. Welcome Rand. Rand (00:26): Thanks for having me, Kathleen. Great to be here Kathleen (00:28): To say that I'm excited is an understatement. I, this is, I'm just going to throw it out there and this is embarrassing, but I have had a marketing crush on you for a long time. Rand (00:39): Marketing crush. One of the most unusual types of crushing. Kathleen (00:42): I mean, you have to really be a marketing nerd to develop like marketing crushes and I truly have one. So I will just tell a brief story about how and why I developed this crush. And then I'm going to ask you to tell a little bit about yourself. So I, I started reading your content when you were at Moz and I always just loved, loved it for two reasons. One is, it was incredibly substantive. There's a lot of crappy content out there and I've been a marketer for a long time. And I don't like to waste my time with stuff that isn't going to teach me something new. Kathleen (01:17): And I just always felt like I learned something when I read your content, but I loved also your delivery and the fact that you let your personality shine through and you, weren't afraid to be kind of fun about it. And that's what first you know, turned me on to the content you were creating. But then I think what really cemented it was actually when you left Moz and you wrote your book Lost and Founder, I was a business owner for 11 years. I owned a digital marketing agency and I had what I would call a less than glorious exit. You know, there were a lot of failures along the way. I even actually toyed with writing a book. It's the first time I've ever said this to my podcast listeners. I toyed with writing a book called full frontal failure about like how important it is to just own it and put yourself out there and how, like being an entrepreneur is so lonely and nobody talks about the bruises and the, you know, the bad parts and I saw your book and I read it and I was like, Oh my God, this is what I'm talking about. Kathleen (02:18): So it really spoke to me and then you started SparkToro and I was so fascinated and impressed by how you built the audience first. And really again, what putting out incredibly substantive content, I loved everything you did with Jumpshot while it was still available. Anyway, so I mean, I could go on and on and on, but that was kind of my journey following you. And I've always just loved how unflinchingly, honest you are. And the most recent example of that is the amazing blog you put out about why you left Moz's board of directors and, and you've always been a champion of diversity, and I love that it made room for two women of to join the board. So I'm going to stop now, cause this is getting a little awkward. Rand (03:04): No, no. I mean I think what's, you know, what's wonderful, Kathleen is I always felt like the the contributions that I, that I wish, you know, resonated more in the world are exactly the ones you're talking about, right. Transparency around entrepreneurship and around the hard parts of broken relationships and broken systems and you know, work around diversity and equity and inclusion and those kinds of things. And yet, you know, mostly for better or worse, right? Mostly what I'm known for is like, Oh, you really helped me learn keyword research. Kathleen (03:45): Whiteboard Fridays. Rand (03:49): I'm, I'm very grateful and honored to have helped people with those things as well, of course, right. That, that built my career and, and helped build Moz. But I think there are, there are lots of places to get that information and to your point, it, it can be pretty lonely and challenging to find real people telling real stories about the painful and hard parts of work and life and and recognizing what opportunities they've had and which ones maybe they didn't earn. Which, which has certainly been the case with me too. So, Kathleen (04:29): Yeah. And I would add to that and helping other people perhaps avoid some of the pitfalls you did. I love that you shared your term sheet and lost and founder. You know, I, I actually sent that to a friend of mine right after I wrote it. He said he was starting to look at maybe taking on investment. He had a completely bootstrapped, very, very successful software company, but he didn't have a succession plan. He didn't have children who wanted to take over and he wanted to retire. And I said, I have a book, you have to read, read it before you take any investment. And I just think that's, so what a gift to be able to like, pass that on and allow people to, to avoid some of the things that you've had to encounter in your journey. So thank you for that. Rand (05:09): Oh my gosh. I'm honored. Thanks. Kathleen (05:11): Yeah. Well, the big reason other than the adulation I'm pouring on you, that I wanted to have you here was that I, the thing I think is so interesting and what makes me want to ask you like a thousand different questions is that you are somebody who has started and grown a very successful business in Moz and learned a lot along the way and SparkToro's a more recent journey. And you know, we always say like, Oh, if I had only known that, then what I know now, and you kind of had that opportunity a little bit with SparkToro. So that's really what I want to dig into as someone who has been there, done that and seen both the good and the bad of growth and what works with marketing and what doesn't when you decided to start SparkToro, can you, can we, maybe we could start by having you walk me through, what were the lessons you pulled from your earlier experiences to put together? What, in your mind was the plan that would work for a brand new company from a marketing standpoint? Because of course we talk about inbound marketing on this podcast. Rand (06:16): Yeah. let's see. I had a bunch of things that I really wanted to do very differently. And some of those, some of those, I kind of outlined at the end of Lost and Founder, but you know, I wanted to fund SparkToro differently. I knew that I wanted to raise investment because I didn't, you know, to your point around leaving a company and not having a financial exit, right. I didn't have a financial exit from Moz. And so, you know, I needed to I had a nice severance agreement, but otherwise right. Had to start getting income pretty darn fast. And I knew that I wanted to build a company that could be successful, successful, meaning for its employees and its customers and its shareholders be successful for all three of those groups without having to be hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Rand (07:16): And so the VC model just does not really allow for that, right. It is you know, Moz is a company that got to $50 million in recurring revenue and is considered kind of a, like frustrating mediocre plateau, you know, of a, of a company, because it just won't, it won't go away and die, which would be fine, right. In venture capital world. It's fine. If 98 out of a hundred companies that they invest in die or right. Or could it get to a fast growth rate and North of a hundred million dollars in revenue? That's fine, too. Everything in between is no good. Right. Kathleen (07:56): That's so funny because I feel like if you talk to any startup founder, well, I don't know any, but most 99% of startup founders would say $50 million company. Yeah. Sign me up. Like that sounds great. It's weird. Rand (08:09): And I think almost all of us, in fact, all of us should feel that way, but the venture capital asset class has biased a lot of people to think like, Oh yeah, that's, that's not good enough. And that's pretty, that's pretty dumb, right? Because what we want, what we want as a society and as people, and as human beings who are familiar with how capitalism and economics interact and politics, we should want lots of little companies, right? What makes a sector robust? What makes an economy vibrant is competition and lots of diversity of, of, you know, different companies owning parts of the market and innovating as a result of that. What you absolutely don't want. The last thing you want, if you want a healthy economy and a healthy politic and a healthy sort of income equality you want, you do not want Facebook owning 90% of social media, Google owning 95% of search Amazon owning, you know, whatever it is. Rand (09:16): Percent of e-commerce 50% of e-commerce, right? Those are negative externalities and the results of you know, a sort of system that gravitates toward the most powerful. And that is bad for everybody, right? Bad for entrepreneurs, bad for employees, bad for consumers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So I knew that I wanted to build a company that could be successful without the forced venture type of outcome. I knew that I wanted to keep the team really small. I don't like building big teams. Casey doesn't either, both of us have worked at, you know, companies that are like at Moz when it was like 20 people and 25 people. That was great. 50 people. Okay. Still, all right. 75, Ooh. I'm not feeling as great about this hundred, 200 plus really I'm not a match for what the kind of working environment that I like. And so, yeah, that was another intentional decision to, to longterm. Keep the team small. We knew we wanted to build an audience before we launched a product. We knew we did not want to launch an MVP. We wanted to launch a very robust sort of impressive product. That would be remarkable to a lot of people. The first time they tried it. So all those things are very different. Kathleen (10:40): Yeah. Let's talk for a minute about building an audience before you build a product. That's something that I'm personally passionate about. I, I spent two years as head of marketing at IMPACT. And I, after I exited my agency, I always said I would never be in an agency again. But I stayed in IMPACT because that was Bob Ruffolo, the CEO, his vision was to build a media company around the agency. And I was like, that is interesting to me and that model was build the audience and then, and then we'll have products we can roll out to them. So it's not exactly what you're talking about, but it's that same mindset of, if you have a really passionate audience, it unlocks so much opportunity. I'm interested in knowing like, how did you go about that with SparkToro? I kind of saw it from a reader standpoint. Cause I think I've read every one of your blogs since the beginning, but maybe explain to my listeners a little bit about why you chose that approach and then how, how you approached it. Because I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding how exactly you would go about doing that. Rand (11:38): Yeah. Yeah. And I did it quite differently than with Moz, right? So Moz was like blog five nights a week you know, try and get traffic to all those posts, try and get good at SEO earn, you know, links to those posts. And then, you know, slowly build up this sort of content and SEO, flywheel and SparkToro was essentially built on the back of what I call social media marketing and digital PR. Right. So I did lots and lots of and continue to do lots and lots of podcasts and webinars and conferences and events and guest contributions and you know, get interviewed for other publications platforms, blogs, media channels, research reports get quoted in news, like all, all that kind of stuff. Right. Essentially leverage the power of other people's platforms because SparkToro, when it launched had none of its own and also leverage the social media platforms that I carried over from us. Rand (12:40): Right. So I didn't, I didn't get to carry it over, like my, you know, my content library and all the search traffic, but I got to bring with me, you know, some of that social media presence and, and that following on like Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram that essentially kickstarted the SparkToro audience and the sort of what, what started as our beta invite list and then became our early access customer list. I think for any startup, for any business that's trying to build its audience and email addresses the most important thing to capture, you know, getting website visits, getting social followers yeah, those are okay. Not, not like a problem or anything, but an email address is so incredibly valuable. You can do so much with those direct communication, you know, broadcast communication. And of course all sorts of, you know, stuff on the ad platforms too. Rand (13:43): So we, over the course of about 18 months, which was essentially the development time, the R and D and testing and beta process for SparkToro we had about 15, 16,000 email subscribers who said like, I want to get notified at launch or like I'm interested in being a beta tester if you'll have us. And that helped us. And even though we launched in April of 2020, like the worst possible time in the last hundred years to launch a company we did manage to get our first, I think almost 150 ish customers via that, that list of folks. Right. Who said, like, I'm interested in what you're doing. And so that platform has done through, you know, social broadcasting. I published probably, I mean, you, you, you read them all. So I think over the course of 18 months, I don't think I published 30 blog posts even right. Fairly small limited number, but I probably did a hundred. Yeah. You know, interviews and conversations on other people's this sort of digital PR approach to things. And I would do that again. I think that's a, that's a great way to play it. I mean, you know, obviously we're having a podcast conversation. Kathleen (15:01): That's very meta. Rand (15:05): Yeah. Which is a little bit of the reason that's so valuable is because when you don't have an audience of your own finding the audiences that are, that potentially will resonate with you and leveraging them from other folks, platforms is a super valuable way to go. It also worked really well because we had that sort of free signup funnel, you know, before launch, it was give us your email address to get notified at launch. And after launch, it was tries searching SparkToro for free, and then, you know, register to create a forever free account. And that that funnel has also been very successful for us. So, you know, I'll be on a webinar, I'll be on a podcast. I'll, I'll do a video live stream or something I did when a couple of days ago. And you could see like the spike in Google analytics, right. Cause lots of people are paying attention to podcasts. We're having a conversation and they're like, Oh, let me go try this SparkToro thing. Right. So it works really well. As long as you've got your funnel optimized for that type of acquisition. Kathleen (16:05): It's interesting that you say, you know, you, you were successful because you essentially identified other people who had audiences and you were able to draft off of that a little bit. I'm going to put a pin in that. Cause then we're going to come back to what SparkToro does. Cause I feel like that's the perfect segue before we get there though. So I want to make sure I understand correctly. You had about an 18 month development period during which the product was not publicly launched. You mentioned you wrote 30, let's call it 30 blogs. In addition to doing your digital PR, I do want to add as the reader, that, that sounds simple, but it wasn't because these were not just opinion pieces or, you know, 10 ways you can write a great subject line. These were blogs that included a lot of original research that you did in conjunction with the Jumpshot data, as well as some real thought leadership around what was happening with Google and, and being able to get clicks in search results. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about that because I do feel like that was one of the reasons that I avidly followed you, was the quality of the information in those blogs was not to be found anywhere else. I couldn't find that information elsewhere. Rand (17:17): No I didn't. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. So, you know, part of my thesis around building a successful whole marketing flywheel is going and finding a way that you can contribute unique value that your audience cannot get elsewhere. Right. And you know, I've written about this and I talk about it all the time and when you know, startup founders and marketers ask me like, Oh, well, where should, where do you recommend that someone new to marketing start building their their funnel, their channels, their, their, their flywheel. My recommendation is always something you're passionate and interested about somewhere where your customers actually pay attention and somewhere where you can add unique value that no one else is providing. And so this was, you know, this was sort of my stab at what, what can I do uniquely? I had this relationship with Jumpshot. Rand (18:07): I had been using their their data at Moz. I've been really impressed by their click stream data quality. And so I continued that relationship sort of helping them by being a vocal supporter and proponent of their day of using their data. And in exchange, they gave me a bunch of, you know, research time. So they, you know, they had someone super friendly guy named Sean who worked with me on their, on the R and D side of Jumpshot. And I'd be like, Hey Sean, can you pull this data for me? And he'd pull it, send it over, I'd put it into Excel and play around with it and produce some nice looking charts and graphs and publish that and try and try and tease out the interesting bits of like, Oh, here's the distribution of where web traffic is coming from? Like, you know, more than two thirds of all web traffic is controlled by the alphabet corporation, right. Rand (19:00): Between Google and YouTube and Gmail and Google maps and yada yada, yada, that entity was referring more than two thirds of all web traffic to sort of the top. I think we pulled the top 20,000 or so websites. Right. so that feels a little monopoly. Yes. Great. It's sort of, yeah. Sorta dangerous. And then you look at, you know, web search as a whole, and of course, Google at the same time was trying to claim to who was at the attorneys general of the United States who were looking into it from, I think like 40 some odd States, quote your research as part of that. Right. So, you know Congress through what's his name? Congressman David Cellini I think is the, the representative who's looking into an a, on the house subcommittee for antitrust and, you know, they're, they're asking Google, all these questions and Google is giving them these clearly obviously BS lie responses. Rand (19:59): And so I'm able to call that out, right. I'm able to look at the data and be like, Nope, you're lying to Congress. I don't know if there's consequences for that. Apparently there's not, but yeah. Let's not go down that road right now. Cause I'm yeah. If you would like to take away women's rights, apparently it is totally cool to lie to Congress, but, you know but yeah, so being able to call out, you know, Sundar, Pichai, Google CEO, and say like, look, the thing, the thing that you told Congress under oath is provably false. Maybe, maybe Congress wants to do something about that. Right. You know, maybe that's going to come back to bite you in the butt. I hope it does. Cause I, you know, I don't think that's acceptable behavior. And I don't think any of us should, should, should accept that, but, but these are kinds of things, right. Rand (20:47): That it did, it did two things, right? One, it brought a lot of folks like yourself to SparkToro subscribing to the, the blog, paying attention to the publications. And it also helped create in my opinion, a very accurate narrative around how do we, as marketers break free from the duopoly of Facebook and Google, like, can we do other things, other marketing things, can we pay attention to other channels? Can we spend our dollars and time to go find other publications in people and sources of influence that reach our audiences and not exclusively rely on these untrustworthy and potentially risky partners. And that obviously serve SparkToro's interest as well, because fundamentally at the core of SparkToro is I'm trying to solve this problem. Right? The, the reason I created the company is because I'm frustrated with the Google Facebook duopoly. Over-Marketing Kathleen (21:51): Well, let's take a minute and actually have you explain what SparkToro does cause we kind of skip that part in the beginning and I'm gonna make sure we don't completely miss it. Rand (22:01): Yeah. Fair enough. I, I don't love to be self promotional, which is a little, Kathleen (22:06): But I mean it's germane given what we're talking about. I'm the same way, but yeah, Rand (22:09): Yeah. Right. Is that weird? You, you like, you should, that, that's the goal of marketing and you know, Kathleen (22:16): I always say marketers are terrible at marketing themselves. I'm I'm, I've been trying to get a personal website launched for the last two years. And I don't know if it'll ever go live because having to write my own website copy is like the most insane form of torture about myself. Rand (22:33): Open offer. I have been working with a wonderful technical writer. I'm a woman out of the UK on some of our case studies for SparkToro. And she is amazing. If you want someone to interview you and then turn that into your copy, Kathleen (22:47): I will get her name from you because I can't, I cannot write about myself. Rand (22:51): I love working with consultants and agencies. I know that's weird. Like startup founders is supposed to want to build that strength internally. I don't, that's one of the things I did at Moz that like, we always tried to hire instead of work with consultants and agencies. I think that was a really dumb move. At SparkToro I'm using tons of agencies anyway. You would ask, what does the company do? This is very fair. Right? So trying to solve this problem around Facebook and Google's do opoly over online marketing and advertising. And if you're in e-commerce Amazon sort of makes how to try opoly. Essentially what we realized is that the, the challenge comes in when folks are asked to understand where they can reach their audiences outside, they're outside those platforms. So like, Kathleen, if you and I start a new company to sell, I don't know bone broth, we're like, Oh yeah, let's, let's do the, the, the bone broth thing. Rand (23:53): And like, w we'll we'll we'll make lovely stuff and then we'll sell it online. And where do we reach people who are interested in things like, you know, paleo and keto diets, right? Cause that has a big overlap with it. And people who are big into like college enrich foods and people who are big into cooking. I don't know the result though. And where do we, where do we find those communities? Like, okay, I, I know a few recipe websites, but are those the right places or not? And so what you want to be able to do ideally is go find all the people online who are talking about whatever bone broth or collagen or keto diets, or I don't know, maybe you have a big affinity overlap with yoga instructors or something, right? You want to go to those communities, go find those people and then figure out, probably figure out like their home address so that you can break into their house and steal their phone and log into it, right. Rand (24:55): Get their unlock code, log in and then see all the things they were browsing and reading and watching and listening to and following. But of course that's illegal and super unethical. And so the next best thing to do, because surveys and interviews don't work for this. Like that's the way most marketers get this data. That's how I got it before. And it does not work because people just can't. It's not that they don't answer, honestly. It's just, they can't remember. You know, if you ask someone like, Hey, tell me a hundred people you follow on Twitter. What? No, I can't. How am I supposed to remember that? I can tell you maybe like five, Kathleen (25:34): Right? The classic story. When I used to own my agency, I had a client I worked with who said, Oh, we, we train all of our sales people to say, how did you hear about us? And one of the most common answers we get is, Oh, I saw your ad in the Washington post. And my client was like, I have literally never advertised in the Washington post. You know? Rand (25:51): And this, this speaks to another fundamental problem, which we found with a ton of you know, agencies and consultants who would work with businesses. And you, you go talk to the executive team and they'd be like, all right, I want you to get us placed in the wall street journal. Why the wall street journal, like we're selling bone broth here. I golf with our customers every weekend. They read the wall street journal. You get us covered in the wall street journal. Like, no, my friend, I look, you you're getting super biased responses. And like you and your golf buddies, I'm sure do read the wall street journal, but that is not sample size of three. Yeah. Right. And so apart from breaking into people's houses, what the other way to do that? We saw a few really, really smart businesses marketing teams and customer research teams who had their engineers basically take a list of their customer's email addresses, send them through a service like full contact or Clearbit and get all of their social accounts. Rand (26:54): So like, you know, here's Kathleen and here's Rand and here's, Rand's LinkedIn account. And here's his Facebook page of it's public. And here's his Instagram, if that's public and here's his Twitter and here's, Kathleen's, you know, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, Reddit, Quora, Medium, blah, blah, blah. And then they would crawl those social URLs. If they're public and extract all the data, they could like everything that's publicly shared by that person online just like Google. And then they would aggregate it together and be like, okay, our customers follow these social sources. They listen to these podcasts, they're sharing these YouTube channels. They're sharing these articles and websites. Now we can put our data together and go advertise and market in smart ways in smart places. And Casey and I were like, Oh, that's genius. Kathleen (27:44): Amazing. What is incredible? And also, are you kidding? Rand (27:48): You custom built with like three engineers on your team over nine months, this process, just to get that one piece of data. No, that's unfair. We should build that for the whole internet. Right. Let's just build that for everybody. So now you can go to SparkToro and sort of instantly, you know, search for any audience and discover what they read, watch, listen to and follow Kathleen (28:11): It's awesome. And, and I can, I will add, as we go through this conversation, I am a customer currently. I was actually one of your beta users at a different company. So your funnel works because I am the living breathing example of it. But now going back to, so you had 18 months, you created this awesome content. One of the things that really struck me that you said was you partnered with Jumpshot and, you know, they have this data and they assigned a researcher to you. And, and the reason that struck me is that I imagine there are probably a lot of people listening, especially if there are people who are engaging in, in creating a startup who are saying, that's great, Rand Fishkin could do that because he's around Fishkin. And he worked at Moz and people are going to give him anything. Kathleen (28:57): But I think the truth is though that the, at least the, the lesson I extracted from what you said is about partnership. Like if you are somebody who doesn't have a huge following, if you are somebody who doesn't have access to a ton of proprietary data, who out there is in an adjacent space to you, is complimentary, who does. And I mean, I did this in my last job because I worked for a small cybersecurity startup that had like no web traffic. And we put on a, a four day virtual summit on IOT security and the partners we had were unbelievable. Nobody had heard of us, but they had all heard of our partners. And my whole deal was, I'm not going to charge you to be a sponsor. You're going to get a speaking slot. All I ask is that you promote this and am going to put in all the elbow grease, right? Kathleen (29:43): Like I'm going to do the marketing. I'm going to get like 500 people to come to this thing or whatever it was. And I think to me, like, I love that example of Jumpshot because you don't have to be a Rand Fishkin. I think you just have to understand what's in it for the other partner and the fact that you were able to shine a spotlight on their data and give them visibility. You know, there's, there's something for everyone out there in terms of figuring out the right partnerships. So I feel like that's a really valuable lesson. Rand (30:10): Yeah. I was going to say a lot of, a lot of amazing data is public or publicly available. I a guy just emailed me in the, in the SEO space. Jeff, what's his last name? Jeff Baker, I think. And he had put together this study where he analyzed a bunch of SEO tools. It just use their public, like, you know, he subscribed to the free trials or paid for a month of access or whatever. And then like did a big comparison and published it on. He pitched it to search engine land, which is a big publication in the, you know, search marketing world. They accepted it, you know, despite that he didn't, it's not like he had a big history with them. He didn't have a big following previously. He pitched it to them. They published it. He emailed me and was like, Hey, I think you'd be interested in this. Rand (30:51): Would you share it? I was like, yeah, this looks great. And did really nice work here. Right? It's small sample size, but excellent methodology. Sure. I'll share it with my audience. Right. I posted it to Twitter and LinkedIn, it got picked up by a bunch of more people like great, you know, he had no special, you know, relationship previously. I think there's opportunities like that to find unanswered or unasked questions in virtually any topic and field, and then expound on that take advantage of that, that opportunity in the market, underserved opportunity in the market to create unique value that your audience can't find elsewhere. And if you do that even just a few times, you know, I am not talking about publishing every night or every week, you can publish, you know, five times the year and be very successful with this kind of thing. If you become known for providing that source of information, data opinion you know, analysis that is unavailable elsewhere. Kathleen (32:00): Well, and I would also say having a point of view, which is something that you've done consistently on everything. Yep. And this is a, this is something I want to explore just for a minute, because you know, having, having owned an agency, I've talked to so many business owners and, and, you know, heads of marketing having worked at other agencies like hundreds, hundreds over the year, the years. And there's a lot of, I feel like this is the third rail for so many of them. Like there are a lot of people who just firmly believe you don't take a position on anything period. End of story. I am not one of them, I believe in taking positions. But then there's this whole other gray space in between of like how, how firmly can you plant your flag in one direction or the other? Kathleen (32:45): And a lot of business owners get very afraid of offending anyone and then kind of shying away from that. They become, I always refer to it as like the milk toast of marketing. You don't offend anybody, but nobody really likes you that much either. So I would love to hear your thoughts on, because I think I do think it takes guts. You know, and what you take a stand on has to match your personal passions and what you truly believe in because you are putting yourself out and taking risks. So maybe talk through a little bit as the owner of the business, how you thought about this and, and how in your head, you reconcile the risks of taking controversial positions with what you see as the, the kind of things you could gain out of it. Rand (33:27): Yeah. So let's see, I think about this in sort of three ways. I think about it from a an ethics and philosophy sort of perspective. Like, am I a good person? Am I doing good things for the world? Am I prioritizing the goodness that I do for the world over a personal greed, right. Making more money? And if the answer to that becomes no, then I am obviously the definition of evil, right? Evil is not like I'm going to go murder people. You know, like that that's almost never happens almost all evil, at least in our society exists because people trade the courage of doing what they know to be the right thing for money or power or influence. Right. And that there's, that's evil. So I think about it from that perspective and on that vector, this is just an incredibly easy answer, right? Rand (34:28): Like you, you should obviously do it the second way. I think about it is from a marketing and branding perspective, which is essentially what kind, what do I want to be known for recognized for appreciated for what kind of audience do I want to attract? Who do I want to you know, bring to my community and who would I like to keep out of my community? And from that perspective, it, it also is a relatively easy answer, right? Like, I, I want people I'm happy to have you know, what would have been classically called political disagreements on like, well, what should the tax code look like? Or how should we do zoning and you know, a neighborhood or well, what about, what about investments in whatever it is, you know, military versus environmental spending versus regulation on mining, like, okay, those are all political conversations that I think are, are reasonable. And then there are unreasonable political conversations like, well, should we allow blacks and Jewish people to live? That's not a political conversation. Right? I of, that's not, that's just human, right. Rand (35:42): That's not an open for debate conversation. Right. And I think unfortunately there has been a a rash of sort of, well, don't you want diversity of thought and diversity of thought just means a diversity of thought to me is like a look I'd like to be white supremacists and not get criticized for it. And so can we just agree to, let me be like that? No, we cannot agree on that. That is an untenable well position. We're not, I'm not okay with it, so right. I'm I am, I'm happy to turn away those audiences and build a, you know, build an audience around that. That resonates with my perspective. I also think about it from a third perspective, which is what does the structure of the business that I'm building forced me to accept and allow me to work with them. Rand (36:37): And so this was one of another really big reason. I didn't want to raise venture capital because yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Right. Like in the venture backed world, you do not that you need to be milk toast, but you are absolutely pressured to build a giant market and building a giant market often means attempting to turn off almost no one. Yeah. Right. Attempting to be uncontroversial in a lot of ways. And and I don't think that's a healthy or right thing. I am. I mean, I'll definitely say, I think probably a lot of Americans and a lot of people all around the world who are facing sort of this nationalist, autocratic surge in politics that we've been seeing globally. Right. A lot of, a lot of those folks, a lot of folks are frustrated that like these sorts of issues have become so front of the top of mind for so many people all the time, I, I feel that frustration too, right? Rand (37:43): Like I'm, I am absolutely in the world of, gosh, I, you know, I really disliked a lot of previous administration's policies and like things in the United States, but I never felt like they were going to absolve us of our democracy. And now suddenly we have to worry about that. And that that's very frustrating. I don't like that. So I think that this these sort of three things have guided me towards an ability to say, okay, the structure of my business, the way that I want to attract customers and market to them and the audience that I want to build. And my philosophy and ethics are all in alignment. I don't know that every business owner gets to do that, but yeah, I hope I hope they do because they should. It's absolutely. It's, it's obviously the, the best way to go. I need more people Kathleen (38:38): That hits the nail on the head, because I know I've always said this, like when it comes to taking a position, there's not like any one position everybody should take. I mean, that's where the owner of the company, the founder has to kind of a very much align with them as a person and you are going to attract the people that are naturally attracted to that same position. And so it is, it is interesting, but I think it takes a lot of guts and I really commend you for it. And, and you're right. Yeah. I don't think you could do it if you had traditional investment in your company. Rand (39:09): Yeah. I mean, I certainly could, but it would put me in conflict with some of the goals and expectations. It could create strife and you know, who knows if I would be able to maintain that longterm. I think, you know, as a, as a key example, right. You can see with with Facebook and Zuckerberg, this sort of like and, and Larry and Sergei and Eric Schmidt and Sundar Pichai at Google, you can feel this sort of tension between like, they sort of know what the right thing to do is, but they're really scared about doing it because of fears of a combination of like political interference from, you know, people who's in who's interested is not, and market fears around, you know, where, what their users will do, what their customers will do, and the fact that they have to generate billions of extra dollars of revenue every quarter. Kathleen (40:07): Yeah. Yeah. It's a prison that they've grown into over time. I think. Rand (40:12): Yeah. I mean, we, we amplify that, like there's a lot of, there are a lot of people I'm sure there are people listening to this podcast right now who equate a person's worth with their productivity and their economic entrepreneurial contributions, right. And their financial success. That is a pretty terrible metric of a person's worth, right? Like we all know we should be measuring people's worth in the kindness that they bring to the world around them and the way they build relationships and how they and, and fundamentally all human beings are worth while. Right. All of us have, that's why human rights exists. And, and reducing that to this late stage capitalist model of like, you are how much money you make. That's, that's a bad way to go friends. Kathleen (41:08): And this is why you are widely known as the nicest guy in marketing. Is that, so that is the word on the street. I'm just gonna, Rand (41:16): Or a significant number of people on Twitter who disagree. Kathleen (41:19): Oh, well, there's a significant number of people on Twitter who disagree with everything. So so going back for a minute to, you made a point about digital PR and again, I'm going to just sort of put this through the filter of, there are probably a lot of people who think, Oh, well, that's easy for Rand Fishkin. Cause he's everybody knows who he is so he can get the interview. So any advice for founders who don't have the reputation as to how to go about doing that? Rand (41:47): Yeah. Yeah. So this is an area where I think before you start your company, it is hugely valuable to build up your expertise in a niche and to build up a network as well. Right? So that doesn't have to be through, you know, blogging. It could be through your social channels. It could be through video. It could be through hosting your own podcast. It could be through unique research that you do. It could be through one on one consulting and help that you give people whatever it is, right. But build your expertise and then use that expertise to build your network so that you are known for having that talent and being able to contribute in those ways. Once you do that, then it is so much easier to do all of the forms of digital PR and, and earning amplification getting attention. I cannot recommend it enough, but I think for whatever reason, there's this sort of sense of in the entrepreneurial world. Like I start my company, I build my product and then I figure out how to market it. No, Kathleen (42:52): Oh, backwards. Rand (42:55): That's not how you do it. Right. First, if you build up a community of people who care about the problem you're solving, even before you have the product that solves it, your launch and your growth will be so much easier. Right. So don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying this from the perspective of like, yes, I obviously have the privilege of, you know, the 20 years that I spent at Moz building up a, a reasonably sized following in this sort of niche of digital marketing world. But that, that can be a relatively easy, easily achieved, not necessarily the same degree, but easily started down the path of, and you don't need 15,000 people on your email list if you have 1500 or 150, that is still such a better starting point than zero. Yeah. Kathleen (43:41): Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So when you think about the future of SparkToro and where you're going to go from here, what how do you think you're going to grow it moving forward? Is it still the same strategy of digital PR and really great content? Or are you changing anything starting anything new? Rand (43:59): I, so I really, Kathleen, I really desperately want to invest in self hosted self created episodic content. Like what I did with whiteboard Friday at Moz, right? Like a series, probably something with video. Cause I'm reasonably good and experienced with video. Maybe involving a whiteboard too. I don't know. But the what's holding me back right now is, is time and bandwidth and investment dollars. Right. So I know that, you know, if I was going to do something like that, I'd probably want a video producer that's super challenging during COVID just, you know, by for one thing. And it's also a really hard to make the time available when it's just me and Casey working on SparkToro. So I think, you know, it might be next year when we're, you know, able to grow enough, to be able to bring in another hire or to invest in a, you know, whatever a content agency that helps me produce that that content with some consistency. Rand (45:00): But I, I do think that would be a very valuable thing. And even doing that something like once a month, you know, having a monthly episode of a, whatever, 15 to 30 minute video series on topics related to things that are of interest to our audience, that probably would do pretty well. So episodic content I think is, is very under invested in because it's hard to start. It's hard to get the motivation to keep going. It, it generally doesn't, you know, take off immediately. Like it's a, it's a slow burn, slow build process, but it is something we really want to invest in. Kathleen (45:37): I love that. Well, I will watch it when it starts tell me then I'm in the Rand super fan club clearly. Rand (45:47): What I love, I love what I love about it is like the, it almost works like the Netflix model, you know, where you, you see one episode of the show and you're like, Ooh, that was really good. I kind of want to binge watch all of them. Right. And if there's a big catalog, you just get all this engagement and yeah, I'd like that. I think that model has legs. I don't see a ton of people investing in it. So I'd like to do something like that. Nice. Kathleen (46:13): Well, we're going to come up to the top of the hour and I have a thousand more questions I want to ask, but we don't have time for it. So what I'm going to do is shift gears because there are two questions that I ask all of my guests at the end of every interview. And I don't want to end without having the opportunity to find out what you have to say about this. The first one is this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that today you think is really kind of setting the gold standard for what it means to be a great inbound marketer? Rand (46:47): Ooh. Okay. Kathleen (46:49): You can name more than one if you want to. Rand (46:51): Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of folks who have been really impressing me lately. Let's see. So I don't know if you follow Melanie Deziel. She wrote a, she, yes. Yeah. Okay. So she writes, she just published, I think earlier this year Content Fuel Framework which I think, Hey, look at that. Hey Melanie, look, I'm promoting your book. No, I, I, I think, I think the world of Melanie she's extraordinary and she just she just keeps contributing in, in such a remarkable ways. I think she's keynoting content marketing world, the digital version, this week. Kathleen (47:30): Wow. That's awesome. Rand (47:31): Isn't it incredible. So amazing stuff from her. I've also been really impressed with, do you follow Nandini Jammi on Twitter? She's @nandoodles. Kathleen (47:43): I feel like I maybe even touched base with her about coming on the podcast. Rand (47:48): Oh, amazing. Yeah. So she is my God. She's so impressive. Like she's kind of my hero. She's she's been working on kind of a, a, a new version of brand safety and advert and helping advertisers save money and optimize their spend away from manipulative and sort of trolling. And I don't know what you would you call it, like sort of non-factual you know, Macedonian creatives. Kathleen (48:24): This is why, so I know her not through the podcast, but I'm in week four at a new job. And my company is, amongst other things, we solve for publishers. We have an anti malvertising software. This is why I know her. Rand (48:40): Got it right. She was one of the cofounders of Sleeping giants. Now she's the co founder of check my ads. And so they, you know, she, but she writes about and talks about all these topics on, you know, national media and and, and online. And she's just extraordinarily smart. I think she, she's a what I would say she's like a very sharp edged person on Twitter. And like many folks, right? She's, she's, she's much more sort of heartfelt and, and a little more, you know, leans into kindness off of Twitter, which, which we probably all do when we're not limited to 280 characters, but I think the world of her I'm super impressed with her work. Sarah Evans from, she's @PRSarahEvans on Twitter. She has a newsletter. She does amazing work in the PR field, especially for early stage companies. Super impressed with her. Yeah. So that's awesome. Kathleen (49:36): I love all of those and none of them have been on the podcast. So I'm going to have to reach out to them now and ask them to come on. Rand (49:41): I have so many recommendations for you Kathleen. Kathleen (49:46): We're going to talk. Second question is the biggest challenge I hear a lot of marketers say they experiences is that keeping up with the changing world of digital marketing is like drinking from a fire hose. How do you personally keep yourself educated, stay up to date on all of these changes? Rand (50:03): I built my own tool for it. I dunno. I dunno if you have checked out, but we have this thing called trending on SparkToro. It's just sparktoro.com/trending. And when you go there, it's basically like the 25 most diversely shared articles, every 12 hours by digital on Twitter. So we essentially just built a little system, you know, where people OAuth their account, their Twitter account, into the trending tool. It's free. It's not like part of our paid package or anything, but yeah, like, I don't know, seven or 800 marketers every day, read, trending, and check it out. And so, yeah, it's fun too cause people reply and be like, Oh, so cool. Our article was on trending today. Rand (50:51): You can get traffic from it. And you can, you can go there once a week or once a month and click the, like, what was the most shared article this month, this week, any given day. And that has been super useful. Like really it helps Casey and I just kind of stay on top of everything going on in digital marketing world. With very little effort, like we don't have to scroll through a bunch of feeds. We can just like, Oh, all right. That one looks interesting. That's cool. Kathleen (51:20): So it takes the firehose and turns it into a little garden hose for people. Rand (51:24): Exactly. Kathleen (51:25): I love that. Yeah. well we are now coming to the top of the hour and so unfortunately we're going to need to wrap it up. If people are listening and they have questions for you want to follow you or connect with you, learn more about SparkToro, what is the best way for them to do that? Rand (51:42): Sure. So my email address is rand@sparktoro.com. I'm pretty fast on email. I am most active on Twitter where I'm @Randfish. And if you are interested in trying SparkToro for free forever, it sparktoro.com. Kathleen (51:57): Awesome. All right, there, you have it. We, we could go for 10 hours, but we only had one. If you enjoyed this episode, as much as I did head to Apple podcasts or the platform or your choice, and I would love it, if you would leave the podcast a review because that's how other people find us. And if you know someone else who's a kick ass inbound marketing person, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That is it for this week. Thank you so much, Rand. This was amazing. Rand (52:25): Great to be here. Thanks for having me, Kathleen.

It happens to every single hairstylist, whether they admit it or not.It sure has happened to me, more than once or twice, and given all the conversations I see happening in the different forums you and I belong to, it happens more times than we’d like but it’s inevitable.What am I talking about? Messing up a clients hair!Ugh! Right?It’s such an icky feeling when you realize you messed up. Whether it’s the cut or the colour, or whatever service you gave, it’s not quite right.And you start to sweat, you wonder if they noticed that their hair is messed up, you wonder if anyone else has noticed.You’re trying to keep your composure but inside your saying Oh shiznit, what the heck am I going to do now?And panic starts to set in.If you’re like nearly every stylist out there, you’ve had some mess ups, and guess what, you lived!In todays episode I’m going to share some of my memorable mess ups and how I recovered and not only recover but improved as a hairstylist and colourist.And you can have a good laugh at my blunders so that you know you’re not alone and you’ll have some great takeaways on what you can do to recover, move on and be a better hairstylist as a result.So stay tuned!

In Episode #17, Camille and Tanya share an honest and personal conversation about voice, voicelessness, and the future of Re-Storying the Culture. Tanya is rediscovering her voice following her ex-husband’s passing. At the same time, Camille feels called to her internal self, to mute her voice and listen for a while as new ideas gestate. How can these two close friends resist harmful narratives of Camille “abandoning” Tanya? By leaning into their individual truths, trusting each other, and returning to their original reason for creating the podcast. While Camille internalizes and quiets her voice, Tanya will expand her own voice and the conversation by bringing other people onto the podcast to share diverse perspectives on re-storying the culture. This new approach is centered on the leadership of many, honoring every person in the culture and creating space to share power and nurture new leaders for the future. It truly does take a village.   Episode Transcript [00:00:01] Restoring the Culture is hosted by Tanya Taylor, Rubin's story mentor, and Camille Adair, family constellation facilitator. In this podcast, these long term friends explore how stories serve our lives. Their inquiry meanders into the realms of science, theater, health and consciousness. Moving the individual and global narratives forward as they draw upon their relationship as the laboratory for their experiments, in truth, so many of us feel isolated and alone in our deepest longing. Each one of us is necessary rediscovering the truth of our human story and listening to what is calling us forward so that we can restoring the culture together. [00:00:51] Hey, everyone, welcome to Restoring the Culture, I'm here with Tanya and looking forward to a conversation on voice or voice, lessness, voice of the voiceless. [00:01:05] And we're we're both out with that. And today, instead of reading a quote, we're going to communicate in a different way. And so if you'll just take a moment with us, we'll do this. This honoring and of sound. And then we'll come back to the podcast. [00:01:53] All right. Well, we're not musicians. That's for damn sure. [00:01:59] I was reading about how words began as sounds and so words sound used to sound like what they meant. [00:02:08] So I was trying to think of words that sounded like what they meant when they were still could inhabit, you know, the right hemisphere of the brain. A feeling right now thinking of the word cushion. I mean, that sounds like what it is cushion. You can feel the khush. But so many words have become just words to describe something rhyme. So they're becoming more objective and less subjective and. And that's part of us becoming less relational or less embodied, less in touch with our sensations. And that leads me to a conversation that Tanya and I just started having. And we're really both sensitive to the changes. In the field and my field, your field, the collective field. And when we started this podcast at the beginning of Kofod, our commitment really was to have honest, transparent conversations between us as friends and to make those public, you know, as an experiment. Is this going to serve? But how refreshing to be able to have conversations like that that have meaning to us instead of thinking, oh, we're gonna have a conversation about a topic. Because we think it's going to have meaning to other people. [00:03:36] And then we manufacture our thoughts based on what we think the outer world wants. Right. This was more about how do we share our inner world instead of manufacturing ourselves. We just share ourselves. And so. Right, one of the things that's starting to shift and change for me is that I feel like I'm being called to this. [00:03:57] I'm going in more internal and into a time of these sounds, these feelings. [00:04:05] And those don't always translate into conversations in the same way. [00:04:10] And so for the last couple days, I've just keep having this feeling about about not backing out altogether of this podcast because I want to support it. But how can I, in terms of the sisterhood, support this mission, support our friendship, support these messages when you add it to it. [00:04:30] And then we started talking about it. And you said after Stephen died, after 19 years, you have your voice back. And after a 19 year stretch for me, which we had never done the math on, you're unbelievable, Turnell. And I feel sort of mute in a good way, like I'm communicating in different ways and something is gestating inside of me. So one of our conversations that we're actually making public because we haven't worked all this out together. But we wanted to share it with you in the spirit of how and why we came together in this podcast is that I may take a step into the quiet under world and I might inhabit more of the voice of the voiceless. [00:05:12] And while Tanya's getting her voice, may be inviting some other people to come in as other other guests, that we've wanted to have diverse voices in here and take this opportunity like it doesn't have to be you or me. And a third voice. It can be me and another voice until things shift and perhaps shift again. Right, exactly. [00:05:35] We don't know. But it's really it's like this is part of that thing of listening to what's in to what's moving and what's wanting to happen next. And and I think it's this thing of being with the unknown. [00:05:51] It's such a powerful guide. I mean, it really is the next phase of leadership. I think totally early emerging. It's emerging somewhat in us. And I think this is really what we've been leading into for a long time. And I think it's actually like it's growing in us now. Right. It's this is leadership to listen. It is leadership to stand in the unknown and to actually not have the answers, but to be guided by what's happening within and around us and to speak to each other fearlessly. [00:06:26] That's right. Because people are so afraid of truth. And certainly back in our own history, yours and mine. Right. We've had times when we needed to have boundaries with each other or change something and we wanted to please each other. I mean, not just with you and I, of course, in our own lives, like this is what we've been conditioned to do. [00:06:47] The people policing versus, oh, I didn't plan on this, but life wants me to go some place. [00:06:56] Slightly different now or I'm being called to do this in service to my own soul and it doesn't quite make sense. And the outer world. Right. [00:07:05] Right. Mine doesn't make sense in the outer world at all. [00:07:09] And I really am so grateful that you hear me and that you understand it for what it is and that it isn't another story. It is this story. And that. It's just as valid for me not to speak as it is for you to speak. Exactly. No, totally. I mean, it's like the truth isn't truly and how we give voice to that truth, whether, you know, I did a checkout today in my constellation training and I had us check in with a sound and check out with a word or a sound. And I found myself humming along Labi. And it took me to such a deep place to look at all these faces of these people I care so much about on my screen and my class. And to be humming this lullaby and to have that be my way that I exit. I think we're so much needing to connect in these deeper ways right now. Right. And I feel like I'm going into some underground preparatory school for something that I don't know about what it is completely. [00:08:13] I mean, and I see that. I see it in myself. [00:08:16] I see. New ways of being are really springing up at almost cut coming from our last conversation. Restring 2020, it's like like we've been stretched around how to connect on screens with people all over the world in an intimate rather than a compromised way. [00:08:39] And so when you talk about humming the lullaby, like we're being called to go deeper with our imagination out to the greater aspects of consciousness. Right. And find that we're actually together, we're actually can stay close. [00:08:57] Even Mahvish, all these shifts happen. We can stay close while you are quiet and I'm speaking. [00:09:04] That's right. That's right. [00:09:06] You know that we can take these different journeys. I think this is what I want to say, because you and I started this podcast and we've we have worked the edges of restoring our friendship for 20, 21 years now. [00:09:21] And our friendship should have been lost many times by conventional or ego standards because we've had different ways of being different ways of acting out or suppressing our own trauma. [00:09:35] Different things with mother issues and female issues. So in in restoring our friendship, which is what I feel is the original intent. [00:09:46] How can I support you in going quiet without making up a story about abandonment or that I can't do it alone or that you don't care as much about me? What I'm saying is the myths we put on top of people's soul truth stops us from doing what we need to do, which is always put that soul truth first and create relationships where we're safe to speak them and allow them and be uncomfortable without the split. You and I talk about the split. There's so many reasons that we find from an ego point of view to go into the split when in reality, if we support each other in following our own souls, what greater possibility of love comes out of that or even creation in the future that we can't even imagine? Right. [00:10:46] I think that's right. And I think that we're doing it. I would say to answer that question, the first one that comes to me that's most obvious as friends is pick up the phone if you're feeling. If any of that starts coming up for you. Just pick up the phone and I'll remind you. I would say the other thing is that it you know, in terms of the lineage of this podcast, it started out as a podcast between two friends. Totally. And all we do is speak the truth. This Calzada ride with Camille and Tanya, right? That's the order that we wrote it in. Camille and Tanya with a small C small T right wrist. And now I'm saying I'm going to do some. [00:11:29] I'm going to just stay for a while, you know. Can you carry restoring the culture and invite other people in? [00:11:35] And then I just say I'll be there in spirit. Remember me? Invite me on some time, call me and say I want to do a podcast about this. You may not be on it. Is there anything that you would add to the conversation? I mean, I'd love to stay close to it totally. [00:11:51] And that is the restoring process, right? [00:11:54] Hey, the toxic old culture we're moving out of is the one that can't hold different needs at different times. [00:12:03] And then what it does and as part of the split is then it puts people into exile. Right. You're either in or you're out for pressure. Right. Those are false dualities. Tim doesn't have to be in or out. It's just the truth that we started this together. And now I'm going to take some time to go into my voice soullessness because something else is growing inside of me that's really important that I listen to. [00:12:29] And you are coming into a time where you're going to be talking and having more conversations of restoring the culture with other people, that it will be in service to restoring the culture. [00:12:39] And if we're both in service to restoring the culture, then we know we're in the right place. No problem. Totally. You're both standing behind restoring the culture as the founders. [00:12:50] That will never change, but it doesn't mean you can't take it and carry it. [00:12:55] And I trust you to do that. [00:12:57] And I'm really grateful that you trust me to go underground for a while and just take something that can't come into words yet. So it will come into words, but I can't speak it until it's ready to be born. [00:13:10] Exactly. Now. Totally. [00:13:12] And what does that look like for you? I'm curious about the how how it would be restored for you between us. [00:13:20] Well, I think just even a deeper commitment to the divine directives that are coming through. It's very clear to me that right now you and I are both so highly aligned with our intuitive selves and our souls that are guiding us to individual purposes, manifested in us in great service in the world and. [00:13:48] And outright honoring that that that is why we're choosing to shift the form that it's not from any old story. It's from the new story of what does it look like to just radically allow ourselves to change any outer stories to serve the soul because the soul is guiding. [00:14:10] So for me, I think it means just following, like honoring the genesis of this is about our relationship and that energetically you're still in the field as a. [00:14:26] I wanted to say fairy godmother because I was looking at you with your red lipstick and I thought, you look like a fairy godmother today. Anyway, you know, it's like you're here and present. [00:14:39] And so it's honoring that presence of who you are. And I think just trusting that directive that what I hear you saying is you're trusting the directive of my soul right now to invite the people I'm most drawn to talking to. [00:14:56] And I sort of have this feeling that in the future, it could end up being a vehicle once again for you to invite in some of the people your most strong to talking. Right. Right. [00:15:05] You know, we can play with what that me can play with it, because now we've so established our voices here and who we are and what we're about, we can play. But for me, the vision is to just keep following the desires of my soul, the dictates of my soul in terms. [00:15:22] And asking other people, bringing in other diverse wisdom from different voices, people of a different gender or people of, you know, maybe who are non binary with their gender, who knows people of different backgrounds, different levels of expertize, both inner and outer diversity. Right. What is their vision of restoring? [00:15:44] Cause to me, where we're building a new culture that's based on our abilities, many different abilities of others who are also drawn to restoring the culture, who see the big sort of systemic issues and have different gifts to bring to the table because it's such a big inquiry. [00:16:08] Right? It's it started out small, but it's so big. [00:16:11] Interesting, because this is reminding me of, you know, I had a couple different midwives for solace. You were the first midwife in the very beginning of my movie. And then my friend Sylvia was a midwife toward the end of the movie. She helped me create a nonprofit. [00:16:32] You know, she really I mean, the last year of that push of editing and, you know, getting it ready to to move out and to be born. Right. Right. You know, I had a midwife in the beginning and a midwife at the end. [00:16:46] And I was thinking about that, you know, that maybe some, you know, in different ways were midwife things, something tons of heart of the story of the podcast of of what's happening here. And that that's a that's a special place. Right. And medicine and midwives don't stick around in the same capacity forever. Right. Right. They change and changes. Yes. And it can be purposeful to be in a place for a time. And and that role can change, right? I mean, it can evolve and it can change. Yeah, that's it. [00:17:17] I guess that is sort of the big takeaway for me is just feeling more comfortable being in the unknown and being willing to go with the change without having to know why. I don't exactly know why, but I'm getting this directive that's pretty loud and I think it has to do with a new time I'm going into at the same time that you're coming into a new time. [00:17:38] It's so fascinating. We hadn't talked about these 19, 20 year cycles, you know, until today, until today in the pot, right before the last podcast. [00:17:47] And and then and we've known each other for a little longer than that. So we have the privilege of the entire 19 years. I mean, I knew Stephen before he was. Yes. Schizophrenic, you know. Yes. Before I got married. Yes. It's really interesting, right, that we have known each other through two big chapters, you know. [00:18:11] Well, huge stories. And it's funny. It's true. When you said. [00:18:15] Yeah, I mean, I remember I mean, playing that role for you with the film and supporting you and coming to some interviews and I think helping facilitate the connection with Grant through and and Dara. [00:18:30] That's exactly right. You know, like those things that have to happen. And then now, OK, we're getting something new here in this form. [00:18:38] And yeah, I think it's I mean, I think it's a great metaphor to use. [00:18:43] Oh, and I was going to say that now when I work with people on their books, I say to. People, there's an illusion. You're going to have one person take you all the way through. But the way I've set it up with my team, I say you really need a story mentor to make sure you've got a story really worth telling. You need a coach, a writing coach who's going to show up every week like the midwife and get you through. Then you're going to need a different person to be that editor because they've really got to have that literary background to be a professional editor and then somebody who's going to help you get it published. So here it is. It's like, you know, same thing in a solo show. It's like you need the director and you know, you need the coach. You need the director. [00:19:23] There's a whole thing, the people backstage and that these one person projects. Right. That's so of this culture to assist in it when it's just really this beautiful circle of souls that always comes together that makes anything significant happen, no matter who's the one that's the quote unquote face of the project. [00:19:46] Well, it reminds me of that saying it takes a village, right? It takes a village to raise a child. [00:19:50] I've been thinking about that in terms of, you know, the depth psychology community. It really takes a village to grow, you know, someone in this kind of a container to do this work. [00:20:06] It takes years and it tears more than one person and it takes time to raise a child. [00:20:13] And in even when I think about like a friendship or a marriage or a business, you know, you have so many false dualities that say it's going to be one person. There are many ways that we get to love and there are many ways that we get to prosperity and there are many ways that we get to feeling fulfilled in friendship, right? Yes. Doesn't have to come through one face. And I remember. [00:20:43] You know, you and I used to talk about a couple years ago, we started talking about the new face of leadership and we were seeing a sea of faces right there, that that is the new face of leadership is the money. So it's kind of taking me full circle to that metaphor of it takes a village. [00:20:58] And when we know it takes a village, our only job is to listen so that we know when and where our right places in terms of serving the mission as a village person. Yeah. [00:21:09] I love that as a villager. Truly, again. And that's the thing, too, about I'm reading an amazing book right now called Sand Talk on Indigenous Leadership. [00:21:20] And it's the circle, right? It is the talking circle. [00:21:24] It's everybody being honored. It's indigenous wisdom from every corner called the Earth. [00:21:31] It's Pande Cultural. [00:21:33] And yeah, it's just making me think how if we're in right relationship and we talk about matriarchal circles, it's there. There's always we're just villagers. And that that's the new leadership where we're villagers. [00:21:48] And what's our right place at any given time. And then allowing that to shift. And one thing, can I just share one thing that came up like about American like power? [00:21:59] We were such we're grabbers of power and then we try to hold on to the power. [00:22:04] You know, last night and and this isn't to discredit at all the amazing contributions and the culture of Justice Ginsburg, who died yesterday, two days ago. [00:22:15] But she had an opportunity when Obama was in office to retire and have him replace her. And she stayed. [00:22:25] And and now, you know, there's this whole disruptive thing about on the wrong side gets to replace her. Well, all of us. And this goes so beyond red and blue, as you and I have talked about. [00:22:36] This is about power. And when we hold on to power, we and I see this in myself. [00:22:43] I understand it. I'm out of my space as a villager. And when I'm also reluctant to step into my power, I may be out of my places. A village or in the divine sense. Right. I see us almost like divine chess pieces not being manipulated, but rather being led in and out of different roles in the circle in Western culture is like hold on to that power forever. [00:23:07] You know, it's like it's a power grab and you know, and that's so much about the split in our culture rather than we can share. [00:23:15] And also, sometimes it's time to mentor younger people and to power other people into power. [00:23:21] Well, that's really where it's up for me. It's whether it's chronological age or it's going to be a new experience for some of us. Right. Right. That it's something is showing up for them. [00:23:32] And I think. That's I mean, it really is I feel like my. I feel like I've been turned inside out like I'm going to be somebodies teacher on some level, I feel like then I share their karma. [00:23:47] It's a big deal. Yes. To step in to train someone or teach them this isn't little stuff. Right. These are on some level like soul contracts that come in. And it is it's a big deal if you're really listening and you're really honoring, you know, the potential for what can grow inside of that kind of relationship. Not to say that there are boundaries and clear beginnings and endings and graduations because those things are really important. [00:24:13] But I do think that. We're just so much more connected than we recognize. And I think somehow maybe we're waking up to more of our connectedness, and that's a beautiful thing, which means we're really here to serve each other. [00:24:30] Period. Period. I don't care what the power structure is. Yeah. We're here to serve each other. And if we get off that track, we're going to suffer. [00:24:39] Period. Exactly. No. And it feels so important to me to just say, if we're being called to teacher lead in any way, you damn well better have trusted peers and allies as well as elders are self on this side or the other side of the veil. It's really important we turn to regularly to stay in our integrity because there are so many ways we can take missteps around our power. [00:25:09] Because that's right. How we've been conditioned, Frank. [00:25:12] That's right. And I think in a way, you know, it takes me back to my hospice days like this is all death and dying work, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's like we should all be in a process of succession planning. Yeah, for sure. I'll be 55 on my next birthday, but I can't tell you. I'm thinking every day I think about, you know, my my own process of succession planning as part of my dying process. [00:25:36] And, you know, that time setting up have been setting up my new business plan with the woman I've been mentoring for seven years. [00:25:43] Like bringing her in closer and bringing her in with other teachers on my team and older people and also honoring her own wisdom as a millennial. [00:25:54] But like, you know, we're having these conversations that I'm having these conversations with everyone on my team. That and even changing the name of my business from Taryn Taylor Rubenstein to sematic writing, because I want sematic writing to go on beyond me. [00:26:10] So. Right. [00:26:11] You know, and we you and I have talked about that with our potential work together, perhaps in the future, like how if we're not thinking in a systems way that can be in the greater service, we're missing huge opportunities and actually missing our part of real power, of being able to lead people in to sustainable practices that can deepen and deepen and deepen over time, whether we're here or not. [00:26:44] That's exactly right. And then then it's I find when I when I am in that place, it's such a great relief. Like the seduction tells us, there's not going to be enough. So we have to hold on to what's ours and be known when you let go of that. That's where the relief as you just it's like then it's like you just want to push other people up. That's really our greatest way of being. My God service and being as being known is to become somebody else's root system. Like, how do we become nourishment for the root so that these plants keep growing in this human world or in the, you know, the human ocean? [00:27:20] It's so I mean, I even see it in my business. I've been trying to play roles that aren't mine because it's not just my business. Right. [00:27:28] It's such a relief when I bring in other people to take that over. And it makes me bigger, not smaller. But noticing, you know, the fear from the ego around delegation, around spreading money around whatever, but like really standing behind myself allows for. [00:27:46] The spaciousness of others certain. [00:27:50] I want to kind of end my part with sharing a little story about succession planning and how surprising it can be because we don't always see the fruits of our of our service and our love. [00:28:03] Right. And I when I first started teaching in Nashville, there was a young woman who took one year of training for me. And it was before I put the whole program together and knew that I, you know, my way would be, you know, three different levels in order to really serve people. [00:28:17] And it was OK because that was a work in progress, it was evolutionary. But she. So this was three years ago. She recently had a baby who I think now is about four months old, and she sent me the most incredible video of her in the shower with her daughter, and she's holding her cat, her iPhone up. [00:28:39] And while she's making a little video of her baby girl, she's saying all these healing words to her like, you are my daughter. I am your mother. I see you. You belong. And the baby literally was like the look on her face every time this young woman would speak. This baby looked like she was like in this rapture, Jolie. It was just the most incredible thing. And I thought. I never in a million years would have guessed that that Constellation training would become such an integral part of how this young woman would become a mother. We did constellations while she was pregnant. We did a constellation before she conceived for this baby. Amazing. MIA So like I just thought, oh, wow. What is the ripple effect? We don't know. But it's such it's such a testament to saying true staying true to what our calling is, even if that calling takes us underground for a while as mine is doing. Right. Yeah. [00:29:51] And even if that calling manifests in the world in the last year of our life. [00:29:56] Exactly. You know, I had a I had an amazing acting teacher, Bill Hickey, when I was young in New York. And he was just always this sort of outsider character, you know? And oh, my God, he was incredible. So he would always talk about every story is a love story. You know, he was that guy I've told you about, you know. [00:30:15] And he was like 70 years old. [00:30:17] And he was like it just looked like he was always just going to be this amazing marginal teacher who every now and then got a role, a small character role on or off Broadway. [00:30:29] But, you know, and then at that at like 70 years old, he just he got put in a film and was nominated for an Oscar. He didn't win. But I remember watching him. You know, he had a shock of gray hair and his bow tie was like askew cause he was kind of just one of those. He almost looked like a homeless person, you know, dripping in his tuxedo like 90 pounds. I cried when I saw him. [00:30:53] But then from that opportunity, he worked as an actor constantly in film and movies for the rest of his life. And he never became a household word. But I always thought there he was like from 70 to 80. And after all those years of being so devoted to his craft and his students and his love of acting and his mastery, bam, you know, there it happened. [00:31:20] But even if he'd hadn't, he would've been on Bank Street teaching the classes, coming late to class, eat drinking because his whiskey out of his thermos. Right. [00:31:30] Because goes house, you wouldn't have been any less secure when you can as one person and so on. And it's a contributor. That's right. Right. [00:31:37] So it's like the devotion to our souls journey. [00:31:41] And if we ever waver from it to just come back, come back, come back, and the deepening deepening is going to take us where we go, no matter what happens at the outside in the world. Right. [00:31:54] You know, you look a great like Van Gogh who didn't sell a painting in his lifetime. And 100 years later, you walk into the Louver, his he's still present. Why are you laughing? [00:32:09] Oh, he's awake. You know. Well, I'm glad we'll still be laughing together. [00:32:16] I may not laugh for a while on this podcast, but I want to say it's really been an honor and a privilege to be a part of this. And. And I leave it with you. [00:32:29] I'll take it from you, Camille. And you win. And we'll just say in terms of the outer story, always to be continued to continue and to you and to yeah. [00:32:40] To all our listeners. Just know I'll be bringing on some amazing people in this during your inquiry. [00:32:47] In the meantime and I want to just give a special thank you shout out to Grant Taylor, my dear friend, and and the person who's been editing these podcasts for now. And he is a friend of both of ours. And he's another 19, 20 year relationship and a totally f part creative partner. [00:33:08] Well, wait. That was when we met him through. [00:33:10] And a Darah. Exactly right. A year ago. So much gratitude to Gray. [00:33:15] I know. I know. All right. Big love. [00:33:24] Thank you for joining Camille and Tanya for this episode of Restoring the Culture. If you were inspired, we would deeply appreciate it if you would leave a review on iTunes or any other platform where you heard our podcast. For more ongoing inspiration and support, please join our no cost global Facebook community. Restoring the culture. You can support our podcast by making a donation here. And remember, we are each restoring the culture as we reach story our own lives. See you next time.

It seems like God gets angry all the time in the Hebrew Bible, but then Jesus arrives on the scene with a message of good news and everything changes! Right? It’s not quite that simple. In this episode, Tim, Jon, and Carissa survey the consistency between God’s anger in the Old and New Testament and the restorative promise of God’s anger.View full show notes from this episode →Timestamps Part one (0:00–11:45)Part two (11:45–20:45)Part three (20:45–25:45)Part four (25:45–37:17)Part five (37:15–end)Show Music “Defender Instrumental” by Tents“Snacks” by No Spirit“Tending the Garden feat. Keenebac” by Stan Forebee“Anywhere But Here feat. Philanthrope” by Dotlights“Better Together Forever” by Team AstroShow produced by Dan Gummel. Show notes by Lindsey Ponder.Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Kanwar Gill graduated with a Master of Teaching from the University of Teaching and is an OCT certified teacher. He has been teaching for 10+ years, including being a Computer Science Teaching Assistant at the University of Toronto and tutoring students one-on-one. He has several years of experience as a software developer before transitioning to teaching. In this episode, Pouya sits down with Kanwar to talk about the impact of Covid on education and the path forward to a better future for education.   Kanwar's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/__kanwargill__/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KanwarG_ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkanwar/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript:----more----   Photo by Deleece Cook on Unsplash Music: Never Falter Written By Kevin Austin Graham Performed By Kevin Graham Produced By Kevin Graham   SUMMARY KEYWORDS students, parents, platform, teachers, learning, happen, education, school, kid, feel, online, big, home, uncertainty, impacted, situation, class, place, people, technology SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Kanwar   Pouya LJ  00:17 How's it going? Guys? How are you? Oh, pretty good. It's been a while we haven't had a podcast in I think a little over a year or about a year. I don't recall when it would leave.   Kanwar  00:28 So yeah, I think I should call it has changed a lot.   Pouya LJ  00:31 Yeah. And it feels long. Actually, I was thinking it's probably even less than a year. But you know, it feels much longer.   Kanwar  00:38 Yeah. Yeah, a lot has happened a lot for sure.   Pouya LJ  00:43 And, and a lot is going to happen, I reckon with the remainder of COVID with the US political, you know, weather election or whatnot. And who knows what else is 2020? Preparing for us?   Kanwar  00:58 Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, it's a pickle. It's kind of like not knowing what's going to happen, but just people still need to, you know, like, economy still has to go up. And it's, it's, I think it at this point, it kind of hinges on the vaccine, which we know a lot of companies are getting close to, hopefully, something will be done. And I think the vaccine would bring in some sense of peace and security for people as I go about, you know, their day to day tasks. True.   Pouya LJ  01:35 No, that's true, I think. I mean, until then, I don't I think that sense of uncertainty, as you put it is going to be, you know, having a lot of influence on on how people think and feel, and live decisions made politically by the officials. I mean, all of that are impacted by that sense of uncertainty. You're absolutely right. And with that, actually, that brings us to one of the fields that obviously, like everything was impacted by this phenomenon of COVID. But we're going to talk about today about education and how that's been impacted, because that's your wheelhouse. You've you work in that space, you read in that space, study, research, etc. So what I mean, obviously, a lot has changed. But if you were to, if you were to give us an intro to how education has changed, from your perspective, how would you describe it?   Kanwar  02:34 Um, good question. In terms of education, I mean, the instant need off, this is learning, online learning has skyrocketed, which has led to big changes in the industry. So you would have teachers, for example, in the public school, who probably don't, you know, they don't go towards online learning. But now they have no other option. And they have to, they have to get on it. And so that's one thing. Let's give me a second. Sure. So that's one thing for sure. That has changed. So you'd have these teachers who have to now understand how the online platform works. Zoom, for instance, you know, the US we're using zoom right now, for this podcast. We know how much the need for zoom instantly increased throughout the world. Right? Yeah. And not just in education, industry, but also in other from you name, small businesses, big businesses. Everyone has been using it. And that's a, that's a feel quite the nature of having something like COVID, which is an immediate, you know, like danger in a sense. We know that the death toll has now increased more than a million. So a lot has happened. And people you know, the second wave, as was announced by the Premier of Ontario, which has started officially. So, again, a lot of insecurity has led to online learning. That has been the biggest shift, in my opinion. And that's what I've seen as well. If you look at any sort of any sort of job postings, any sort of in the education field, any sort of hiring happening, there's some aspect of what you're learning attached to it now.   Pouya LJ  04:55 Oh, that's true. And I think a year ago, more than Have two people who are using the platform, let's say zoom currently haven't even heard of it. Yeah. And that shows you how much reliance it has. Because a lot of people who could work from home, they were working in offices perhaps and in different industries. Now, the the we're basically encouraged and forced to work from home. And while they are having to interact with each other holding meetings, perhaps, and how do you do that with tools such as Microsoft Teams, or, or Skype or zoom? zoom is one of the platforms is doing pretty great because of its quality and reliability, I suppose. And I believe that education, education, field also has came to embrace it, whether it's teachers from like holding their school classrooms at the end of the day. So at the end of last school year, which was the beginning of COVID, and lock downs, I suppose, in around March and April, I think everything had to move into online platforms, at least in Canada. Yeah. And I think, probably most of the world, I suppose, and, or halted, at least, depending on where you happen to reside. So did you did you have a first hand experience of how that affected students and teachers alike?   Kanwar  06:20 Um, definitely. So at the time, I was finishing my master's. Back in March, I mean, March, April, timeframe. And so I was working in a school at the time, as part of my program, doing some teaching, and also, you know, learning in that environment. And this was right, I got really lucky, actually. Because,   06:49 right,   Kanwar  06:50 before the March Break, is when I finished working in the school, and right, at the March Break, is when the premier made the announcement that the schools are not going to be opening again. So I didn't impact me, from that classroom experience point of view, I was able to have all of that done. But what happened is, schools did not go back after my trip. So they had it in, in theory, data, really extended mushrik now, and in this time, the, the province was figuring out what to do. Which means a lot of things were changing, right? So the parents, for instance, they couldn't, depending on where you work, employers were telling you to just work from home, parents were had to figure out how to do homeschooling. So there was no structure in place that Okay, these other resources, you can use, periods have to figure out, Okay, now I have to work my kid at home. And I was I also need to do my own work. So it's kind of like a pickle, right? That was a biggest change that happened. And I'm sure the students reacted a lot differently. Because now they're just home. Before there's something to look forward to, right in terms of going to school, they have this social circle, they interact, something to do outside of home, right. And that changed drastically for for everyone. And that was the immediate change that happened at the time. And that continued for a few weeks, before they decided they're not going to open the schools and online learning is the way to go. And at that point, teachers had to where they had to figure out in the current systems, a lot of teachers would be using Google Classroom. And there's another platform called Brightspace that is used, especially in the GTA area. And they have to basically figure out, Okay, now, you have to put everything on the platform so students can learn. And then some teachers decided to do online office offers where students could come in, ask questions, obviously, teachers would have started getting a lot of emails from the students now. Before that wouldn't be the case as much. So responding to that, I heard a lot of teachers in my own circle, who were definitely been bombarded with a lot going on. And it led to a lot of, you know, stress in terms of time management, okay. Like, there's the nine to five was blurry. It's not like you're working starting in the morning. It could be replying to emails in the in the evening. And you have to make sure you're supporting the students. So it was what it was. And that's how the school year continued. And now we have that's pretty much what happened during this summer. While the province was figuring out what to do with the entire city.   Pouya LJ  10:01 Right. Yeah. And so yes, that and that was probably the speed of onset uncertainty, that was the time of absolute uncertainty because we didn't even know what we're dealing with. Yeah, in terms of the virus in terms of how to and you were right, we, we didn't have resources in place, right. Like right now, there is a degree of preparation, even if the classes are in person, depending again, depending on where you are, maybe the classes are still online. But like, as of now, I believe nothing has changed. Because things changing very quickly, in Ontario, people are going in person with some consideration to schools, but there is a degree of preparation that schools, students and teachers, everybody has in their mind that they might even go back to fully online again, or right now, maybe part partially is online, like, for example, two things are happening online, most of it at least, at least as much as possible. So yeah, so there are the the speaking of uncertainty, that was the absolute of it, I suppose the or the maximum of it, as we experienced during these times. Now, we talked a lot about prospective teachers and parents and, and a little bit students. But did you did you hear any immediate feedback of how students were taking this? This this whole thing?   Kanwar  11:20 Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's it's students for them, you could imagine that I'm just learning online, especially for somebody who was not engaging with technology or learning through technology. In the past, it was a big, big shift, right. And those students absolutely hated online learning, because part of it was doing something that was given to them through the online platform with their parents, and they absolutely hated working with the parents. Because they just want to get out of that kind of environment. And that was definitely a struggle, even at the time. I remember, Google Classroom, which is one of the big platforms, they even have a an app right on, depending on iOS, or Android. And at the time, back in March, April, and this was through North America, as far as I know. Lot of students started giving really poor feedback to that app on the App Store. So the actual star rating went down for Google Classroom. And students absolutely hated it. And that was, you know, quite evident of, Okay, what the students are feeling or they're feeling that this is something that is not a substitute for their experience, or the platform is just missing a lot, right? Like, I'm checking right now on on App Store, and Google Classroom has 160,000 ratings. And the rating that I see right now is 1.6, out of five. Oh, wow. So that's, yeah. And then this app is rated number one in education. So definitely, there's, I'm sure Google took a lot of that feedback, and started to make changes, because they're like, well, if students are really hating, they don't like how it feels. All that, but not to be honest, not much has changed the platform. So they just made minor changes. And students still feel the same. In terms of online learning. Currently, the students that are going to school, and parents realize that it's important for the students, you know, the kids to go to school, because even in the midst of COVID, as long as the safety protocols in place, right. And that's, you know, that's a good expectation to have. You can't rely on that expectation to be followed through entirely, right. So that's something it's it's you don't know what's going to happen. But you have good faith, and you're going to send your kid to the school. And that's what's happening. That's what happened when the schools open again in September, with safety protocols in place, but again, like I said, before, looks like and it's a little, again, create creates a bit of an E an ease, because what's happening again, is like, we feel the structure is missing. show their students in school, you know, the safety protocols, they say, but what's happening is if the students Feels a certain way, the teacher would typically just tell them that, okay, I can't I don't know what's going on. But you can be in the classroom. I see, though, what, what, what's happening now, speaking of today, what's happening now is, okay, we have a lot of influx of the students going to these COVID assessment centers and getting tested. Right, so the the, there's a influx, the load has increased, which means the testing before it was like, within one or two days has now moved to like five to six days. So, you know, and that is even upended by the second wave. But if ever, and added an experience recently, to check out a, you know, one of the COVID assessment centers, and in the line that I saw there, I would say more than 80% were parents with their kids. Wow. And that's just speaks to it. And I feel like that's, you know, it's, here's what's happening. So kids want to go to school. But if they get turned away for something, now, the kid is going to have a totally different experience, right? They're not in school, they're going to go through this COVID assessment center. And, you know, that's a whole different world, right? It's like something you wouldn't expect, that we kind of never went through that when we were their age. And for them to go through that. It's just I feel changes their whole entire perspective of their life and what, what, what is to come when they become an adult? Right. So that's, I think, one of the big changes that are happening for the students. This understanding the world we're living in, especially at the developmental age, right, where they don't really understand developmentally, what COVID means, how it affects everyone, they're, they're just kids they want to play, they want to have fun, right? We all went through that. And to to, to an extent, it's kind of unfair to see, okay, you know, what, they're missing on some things. But in the bigger picture, are we doing what we can to protect everyone around us?   Pouya LJ  17:16 Right? Yeah, no, that's, that's fair. And, yes, it is a bit unfair in that they have to, you know, deal with this through no fault of their own. And, you know, I, as you mentioned, especially as a younger age, where, when they're a little bit really not aware, or even care about what COVID is, they just want to do what they want to do and learn and grow and move forward. That's a fair point. Now, moving forward, do you? Do you see, so how do you see education, let's say a vaccine comes along, let's say the best case scenario, everything moves away? Do you see the education going back to what it was? And if not, what have we learned? What have you learned in this from from all of this? And how can we make education even better than the quote unquote, normal? How can we make it improved upon?   Kanwar  18:12 Right? So in terms of the education, a lot has changed, we've seen that in terms of, you know, the teaching platform, the experiences, what you're learning, one thing that I feel has been a, you know, big benefit of whatever is going on, is the fact that there, the need for collaboration has increased, which means you can collaborate easily on a global scale. Because everyone has a shared problem. So everyone wants to help each other out. So there are platforms, especially in the education field, you know, use certain platforms for say, you want to do an online quiz, you want to you want to have students create posters, there are platforms like canva.com or pictou chart that, you know, before COVID, they, if you had to use certain features, you have to pay for it. But what they did was they understood the need for helping everyone. And they read that entire fee on their platform. So as a teacher, you could just go there now.   Pouya LJ  19:22 And this again, is it can Canva canvas.com or, yeah,   Kanwar  19:26 cannot chart. There's another website called knowledge hook. Specific, specifically good for math in Ontario. And a lot of these platforms, you know, had some sort of features that a lot of features you get access to after you pay the premium, right. But they've waived that in the need off, helping each other out. And Nearpod was another platform that did that. And that was I felt a really good intention. Because you are adapting to this change. You're being flexible, and you are helping each other out. So these platforms, we're not really thinking from a monetary point of view, but really, from a point of view where they want to help the teachers out there. And that's what they did. And a lot of teachers made use of that. And I know for myself, I made use of it. Because I know for a fact that these premium features really give me a lot of flexibility of how I can create my content, how I can assess do assessments in the class. And that was a big, big shift. And so going back to your question, with education going forward, being flexible, or adapting to the change, even if you're not a person who likes change, and that was something that was, you know, in a sense, thrown at you, and you have to now change. So as a teacher, ensuring you know, you are flexible with whatever platform you're given. Now, obviously, look, we don't we can't have the experience you do in class, on an online platform. Okay. So that's something that would be different for sure. You can imagine from a, from a first day point of view, where you build class community where you build these relationships in the class, through the online platform, that would be way different. Okay, the student will still get to know you. But that relatability might not be to that personal level, as it would be in the class. Right, if you show care for a student in the class, they can see it, right? If you show care for a student and online platform, that means creating a safe environment, you know, not having any bullying or any foul language, and you can, there's tools that you can really control in the platform itself, to enable that, but like I said, you could have even face to face, like what we're doing with our video chats, and that would bring in some sort of relatability. But still, it's it's, as long as you don't see the person in actual life, you know, it's it's a whole different experience. And that's something that, you know, it's going forward, that's something that would be again, mixed together in like a hybrid model, to some extent, a lot of schools that have the resources they are doing in person, okay, we have private schools, independent schools, they have the resources, they have the funding. And they can, you know, create that six feet apart distance in the class, and also support students online at the same time, for the students who don't want to come to the class. For for other scenarios, such as public school system, that's a little different. Because what's happening now is more students, instead of coming to class, they want to just go online, because cases are rising again. So the need for online teachers of the game increased. And at the same time, we have teachers in class who are providing support. But again, like I said, the structure I feel is still not there completely, where the teachers are, you know, completely confident of being in the class and supporting the students in the class. Okay, so they still have that kind of uncertainty. And I feel going forward, that uncertainty will go down. Being that environment, it's natural for you to feel, you know, have that sense of being uncomfortable, because we don't have measures in place to protect against this, you know, novel coronavirus, and that will change going forward, there'll be more comfort in the class, eventually, there will be some sort of a hybrid model that will be put in place, obviously, online platforms will have changed drastically. Teachers will now not they will have if if ever they have to teach online, they wouldn't have. They will be there would be less resistance to that now. So that's another benefit. Technology definitely has. We, it's it's it's a perspective where a lot of, for example, teachers who would always say our technology has done this and this and this, you know, maybe having a negative point of view of what technology is doing. And now they see the benefits of technology that, you know, really makes a huge, huge difference. Right? If there was no technology learning would have stopped altogether. Right. And that's a that's a big, big benefit of living in this 21st century, even in the midst of a deadly virus. But you know, we have to tools in place that still make sure that we are connected and we don't lose contact and learning is still going on.   Pouya LJ  25:07 Yeah, it didn't. It. It helped to, you know, keep the momentum to a degree going, obviously, it, a lot of it got stopped and a lot of things got interrupted, for sure. But with a little bit of extra preparation and extra time. Yes, you're absolutely right. We got some of that momentum going. Online, he definitely online through technology. Yeah, absolutely. That's correct. And so speaking of So, I mean, obviously, the negatives are abundant and fairly obvious to degree, there were some that were not far off perhaps from somebody who doesn't have the perspective that you do. But nobody doubted that there is going to be a lot of negatives for students, teachers, the whole education system in the whole society, from every angle from this, but I honestly, I really like silver linings, I like to see things in a positive light and see what what positives actually came out of it. And part of it is what you said, We learned a lot, how we can mitigate technical use technology to mitigate the situation, whether this, and let's face it, who knows when the next pandemic hits, it could be 100 years, 200 years, it could be the next decade, it could be tomorrow, who hasn't seen after this. So point being we are living in a relatively new normal, even post vaccine, let's say there's going to be always that sense, at least for this generation that has experienced it. The sense that the immediacy of any kind of disaster, and how that can affect lives of people all around the world and education. So is there any positive we can take out of this? And and, you know, and improve upon it, make it better?   Kanwar  26:53 Yeah, definitely. Look. So with, we know, technology has been a benefit, we know that there are ways we can stay connected in terms of learning in terms of reaching out in terms of not losing contact, and that's a big, big benefit of in any industry for for that. And I feel going forward, one lesson that we have definitely learned is, you know, technology can really IID a lot of learning. In this case, it can actually even rip, to some extent it can replace, in class learning, and to a lot of extending can extend learning, right. So that replacement and extension is one thing. And again, everyone felt different with that. But the truth is, that is what technology helped us with. And we all feel really happy about that, because students are not like, they didn't feel that they're learning just stopped altogether. And that's one of the big lessons with, you know, this whole situation, how it has unfolded, we can still stay connected. Another big lesson, I would say is our reactions are adaptability to change. And that is something that you know, everyone has a different change threshold. Everyone can somebody can change. Within a day somebody can cheat it takes, you know, a year or two years to to make a big change. And with something like Coronavirus and with this whole situation. Now you don't have that flexibility to wait one or two years, you have to do it today. So it helped people push themselves. And you know, it's for some it would have been easy for some he would have been really challenging, but really walking through that. And really understanding Okay, this is for the betterment of the students, because in the education field, you always put the students first. They're at the center of everything that you do, and their needs come first. And that's really what it comes down to. Right. If you think about it from that lens. You know, I don't care about learning something new because I'm happy that and the students in my class are going to be not left behind. Right. And another big lesson with something like this, students now see, okay, the world is not full of bells and whistles its world is a nasty place to. And that's that is something that is you learn about in history, but now you're living it. And that's something that the students are experiencing for sure. And you know, there's a silver, big silver lining there because the students, the young generation, they have the capability to work in this industry where they can form solutions. There's a big, big research happening right now with the universal Right. And that's something that, you know, I'm I don't know how, what timeline we're looking at where this universal vaccine will exist for anything that would ever happen. You can imagine now, what was that ideology, we have these younger generation, who will, what, what's gonna happen is they will become more and more ambitious on, on taking on these challenges, and tackling these challenges because there's a immediate need, there's an actual need, it's not about making the world a better place. It's about protecting your world, it's about protecting and caring for the future generation, because the reality is, the virus impacts has impacted people across a whole different age group, right? It's initially was the older group, but now we have, we have seen trend where it's affecting everyone. And that's the bottom line. So everyone, if you think of it, from a humanity point of view, I feel like that's a big shift that will happen for the younger generation, because they would see the need, okay, you know, what, there is something out there and I can be part of the solution. Right, and not part of the problem. And that's, I feel it's a huge, huge silver lining in this whole situation. And I feel the students will really, and this is what we see all the time in the you know, we want to create citizens who are engaged, who are responsible, who are, you know, they want to make changes in their community, they want to make changes wherever they live, right, because change starts from your community, and then moves upward. But now, with the technology in place, you can really make a change through technology, and you can help each other out. So many possibilities has opened up. And that whole message of helping each other out and looking for each other looking out for each other. That's a big silver lining from this entire situation.   Pouya LJ  31:58 Yeah, that's very, very, very fair. And very positive. I liked the message. And I also want to for the last final point, I want to put the parents in focus, I suppose because I think from a very early on, especially, especially early on, and even now, you mentioned some of it, that they they're very engaged, very concerned, obviously about their children's education, their health and their family's health, etc. But on top of that, again, especially early on, and a lot of them still now have to enhance to, you know, handle the kids well, where previously they would send them to school, they would go to work themselves, now they have to work and at the same time, they have a kid at home and they're working at home or even if they're going outside to work if you're there, for example, first responders or what have you. Then what do you do with your with your child at home? Right, so that there has been a lot of challenges for parents. Obviously, the kids are not happy, they're acting up at times, they're, they're upset about the situation, you have to help them out. So there's there's, I think there were a lot of challenges coming our ways of parents more than ever before. Obviously, parenting is never easy. And number. Nobody ever said that. It's easy, but I think it was at a level up in the past few months. And I'm sure you had some experiences with the parents through their children that you're, you know, educating online or other ways. And did you have any? Do you have any words of I don't want to call it advice, but of consolation or anything that you want to talk to parents directly about or, you know, give them a message or give their message to us to the rest of us. Yeah.   Kanwar  33:49 One thing from I've just as a recent experience, where one of the parents, you know, that their child was sent back home, because their child was not feeling well. And, and the child shows up at home. And he says, mom, my stomach doesn't feel good, right? And my mother's like, What? Why doesn't few babies I got her. No, it doesn't feel good. And the mom said, Okay, did you go Did you poop this morning? And he said, No, I did not. And she like, do you have to poop? And he said, Yeah, I have to fuke and he goes to the washroom when it comes out and he's feeling finding starts playing outside. So the concern is in the air, okay. The concern is in the air. Now imagine from a kid's point of view, right kid, the kid is just being a kid. At their age, you know, they might have so many things going on, but we can't. We don't know for sure what we can pinpoint it on. Right. So there's that uncertainty from that point of view. And that applies to teachers. teachers could be concerned because they have kids at home. So the teachers who are parents, they are concerned, there's no simple answer to this, right? I can't, I can't say that no, if any, if somebody's feeling wonky, just let them be in the classroom. Because that I feel is, you know, we don't really know what it can be. And that would come down from the school, how the school is reacting to it, if the school says, okay, you know, this happens, it's okay, we can discount it. If not, then these are the policies we will have in place. Okay, and you follow that. And that's really what it comes down to is you'll have a consensus, everyone in the school agrees to what they're doing. And they have the parents on board. That's important, because the parents are not on board. Or, you know, it's not about putting parents on board, because you could have disagreements, but having ensuring the parents are communicated properly, so they know what's going to happen. And that will help parents really, you know, make arrangements to have to, because you don't The last thing you want is your kid showing up home and you have to go to work. Now. What are you going to do that? Right? It's a lot of uncertainty. You can imagine the pain on the parents behalf, like, what do I do now? And their frustration, right? their frustration with the school? Because they're like, okay, the schools open, and now you send my kid home, like, why would I send my kid to school, when something comes up, and you're gonna send it back to me. So if that was the case, I would have just kept mice tried at home. And that's really the unpredictability that we're seeing right now. Parents have to understand that if you're sending your kid to school, the intentions are, you know, the kid will get the opportunity to be in school in that environment. But there are a bunch of things that comes with it. And that's something that the whole family must be okay with. Because what happens if tomorrow, they say, the kid is having symptoms, and now you have to isolate? Right? The isolation 14 days, that means lost money, that could mean lost connection, it's so many things. And every situation is different, right? I can't I can't generalize it. Everyone have their own situation? And as a parent, if that's what you're deciding to do, you must have those things in place. Okay, what is my backup plan? What is plan? a? What is Plan B? If in the case that my child was to come home? Okay, can one parent be at home work remotely? Can we have those? some sort of a system in place? Or can have extended family? Can I give my kids to someone else? Who can take care? Or can I go, if I have a cottage, can we go to the cottage and isolated the cottage, a lot of those. Those are the important things that have to be thought before you make the decision of sending your child to school because I've have seen parents where they just get frustrated with the whole situation, because they had not expected the child to be sent home. Right. So you have to be prepared for that. And for parents, who are first responders, parents who are in the line of work where they protect people, you know, it's it comes down to what you decide as a parent. But the bottom line is this, we know the virus is deadly, we know the virus, you know, it's still out there, it's not completely gone off the face of the planet. So you have to keep in mind that we are living in a new world, which means that the kids still have to go to the school, they still have to do some sort of learning. But Add to that the fact that we are living in a different world now. Okay, so that's something because it could happen. And I've seen even for myself, where, you know, you can start to get more and more complacent in terms of Okay, you know, what, I don't see much going on around me. So I think I'm okay. You know, and but that's looking at your local lens. But if you really look at the global what's going on. Again, that is not the case. Right? And we have to always keep in mind that okay, we are living in a new reality. And this is what I want. These are my goals. I want my kid to get some learning, can I can I send my kid to school, knowing that they can be asked to be tested? And that means going to code center and you know, that's another four to five hours you have to wait in line. Am I ready to do that? Or am I rather me rather okay with not sending my child to school, having them stay at home and learn? And do I have something in place where someone else is at home? With the child right? So those Are the those are the two situations that all the parents are really dealing with right now, in addition to their own full time, whatever they do. So it's not easy. It's not it's definitely made parenting, I would say 1000 times more challenging.   40:17 And   Kanwar  40:18 especially when you have both parents as working, imagine both parents as first responders, it just changes a whole whole scenario what to do now. And that's really, I feel the pickle. But really, having those goals sorted out would make it much, much easy, manageable, in a sense to tackle with, okay, if this can happen, okay, that's, that's okay. Because we have something in place to manage that. Because that would bring a sense of comfort, less frustration. And at the same time, you know, the learning will go on. And that's really should be the goal, right, the learning will go on, and the learning should never stop.   Pouya LJ  41:02 Yeah, and let's hope that and let's hope everything improves, not regress, I suppose that's, that's all we can do. We can basically, this is a situation we have to deal with, at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, and that's a nobody likes it. And some have it worse than others, of course, yeah. And some have it better and, but at the end of the day, all of us have to deal with something new that mostly we don't want to exactly our ideal, but that's life. And then things happen. Obviously, we want to be proactive about these things and make sure they don't happen in the first place. But we also want to be prepared for the possibility of them happening. And that's the lesson we should carry on, I think, moving forward. But at the same time, we're not done with this. And we have to think about all aspects. And and I think one of the things that helps me a lot to deal when I'm dealing with other people especially is that I put myself in their shoes and understand their pain. And that helps me generate some empathy that otherwise I would not be able to where I would judge them harshly. Definitely unnecessarily. So yeah, let's let's hope for the better. And thank you, camera for joining us for this illuminant illuminating conversation.   Kanwar  42:12 Thank you for having me. It's great to have this really important discussion and the world we live in right now.

Welcome! Craig discusses problems that businesses can face when using VPNs and why you should be looking to a Zero-trust network if you are running a business today. For more tech tips, news, and updates, visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Traders set to don virtual reality headsets in their home offices What's on Your Enterprise Network? You Might Be Surprised Malware Attacks Declined But Became More Evasive in Q2 One of this year’s most severe Windows bugs is now under active exploit The VPN is dying, long live zero trust Shopify's Employee Data Theft Underscores Risk of Rogue Insiders Microsoft boots apps out of Azure used by China-sponsored hackers WannaCry Has IoT in Its Crosshairs Love in the time of Zoom: Why we’re in the midst of a dating revolution --- Automated Machine-Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: [00:00:00] What is going on with malware? There've been some major changes just over the last few months. That's what we're going to talk about right now. What do you need to watch out for? What should you be doing in your business as well as your home? Hey, you're listening to Craig Peterson.  We know that they're here. I have been a lot of attacks over the years. That's what we're trying to stop. Isn't it with our businesses, with our home users? That's why we buy antivirus software or why we have a firewall at the edge. Maybe we even upgraded your firewall. You got rid of that piece of junk that was provided by your internet service providers. Most of them are frankly, pieces of junk, maybe you're lucky and have a great internet service provider that is giving you really what you need. I have yet, by the way, to see any of those internet service providers out there, that are really giving you what you need. So there is a lot to consider here when we're talking about preventing and preventing malware. What we have found is that malware attacks declined this year in the second quarter, but here's what's happening. Right? They are getting through more. Historically, we had things that have hit us that have been various types of malware. I remember when I first got nailed back in 91. I had a Unix server that I was running, as you probably know, I've been using Unix since the early eighties, 81, 82. I was using Unix, and I had my own Unix machines because I was helping to develop the protocols that later on became the internet about a decade or more later. The Unix world was on rather an open world. Was everybody on the internet was pretty friendly. Most people were involved in research, either government research or businesses doing research online, a lot of smart people and we actually had some fun back in the days', puns, and everything. We weren't that worried about security, unlike today, where security really is a top of mind thing for so many people. We weren't worried about who's going to do this to me or that to me. I had a Unix server that I was using, actually at a few of them that I was using for my business. Now, one of those servers was running emails, a program called Sendmail. That's still around today. It was the email package that was ruling the internet back at the time.  I got nailed with something called a worm. It was the Morris Worm. In fact, it got onto my computer through no act of my own. I didn't click on anything. It got onto my computer because it came through the internet. That was back in the days when we really didn't have much in the line of firewalls so it just talked to my mail server. One of these days we'll have to tell some stories about how we really trusted everybody back then. You could query to see if an email address was good. You could get onto the machine and say, Hey guy, I noticed that you had this problem so I went in and fixed it for you, and here's what I did. Much, much different world back then. But that's how malware used to spread. It was something, it was just kind of automated. It went out and they just checked everybody's machine to checked firewalls, to see what they were to see if they were open. We've been doing that for a very long time, haven't, we? We have been nailed with it. That's what the viruses were and are still. Where it gets onto your computer. Maybe you installed some software that you shouldn't have, and that software now takes over part of your computer. It affects other files. It might be something that's part of a Word macro or an Excel macro. And it now spreads through your sharing of that file and other people opening it. Worms are like what I got nailed with, just start crawling around through the internet. So they run some software on your machine and that looks for other machines and today things have changed again.  They are changing pretty frequently out there. What we have seen so far here in 2020 is a decrease in malware detections. Now, just because there's been a decrease in malware detections, I don't want you to think that the threat has diminished because it hasn't. But the signature-based antivirus system is real problems. Now, what's a signature-based antivirus system. That's any antivirus software, like your McAfee's like your Norton's, the Symantec stuff, any antivirus software, that is working like your body's immune system. What happens with your body's immune system? You get a virus and you're your body says, okay, what's going on here? It starts to multiply. Eventually, the body figures it out. It develops antibodies for it. So the next time it sees that particular virus, you're likely to be pretty much immune from it. Your body's going to say, Whoa, that's a virus and it goes in and kills it pretty darn quickly. That's the whole idea behind trying to stop the WuHan virus that is spreading out there. How do we stop it while we stop it, by just developing antibodies? Right? That's herd immunity. We could also develop antibodies by an antivirus shot that is designed to stop that virus from spreading and prevents you from coming down with COVID-19 symptoms. In the computer world, it's much the same as most of the software signature-based antivirus software is exactly the same as the way your body's immune system has been working. In many, many ways. Here's what happens. Someone gets infected with a virus and they reported to Symantec or Norton, or maybe the software reported itself. Usually, it's a third party that reports that and they look at it and they say, okay, so what does this virus look like? There is in this program the developers' names embedded or the name of the hacker group is embedded in it. So we are going to now say any piece of software that it has this hacker group's name in it, we're going to ban. Right?  It recognizes it. So when the file comes onto your computer your computer looks at it. It looks at the signatures. These are called signatures. To say, okay, how does it match? Or it doesn't match at all and it might be through a string that's somewhere embedded in there. So it might be through a name. It might be through a number of other things. That's signature-based. The malware, that was not detectable by signature-based antivirus systems jumped 12%. In the second quarter of 2020. That is amazing. Amazing, absolutely amazing. Seven in 10 attacks that organizations encountered in the second quarter this year. In fact, involved malware designed to circumvent anti-virus signatures. Most cyber-attacks last year and this is probably going to be true in 2020 as well as we get into the fourth quarter. But most cyberattacks in 2019 came about without malware. That means that there were hackers behind this. We're going to talk about that. What's going on some of the data also from CrowdStrike and what they have found CrowdStrike is an anti-malware anti-hacker company. They've got a lot of great people working for them as well. What they have found. It's like the bad old days of hacking and they're back on us right now. So make sure you stick around. Cause we're going to get into that when we get back. And of course, we got a whole lot more, including a major windows bug that's now under exploit and how does this all fit together? You are listening to Craig Peterson. --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

I believe we are in a new civil war now. We have intimidation squads now operating around the country. I explore how these mobs caused a prosecutor in Omaha Nebraska to empanel a grand jury after he had otherwise declined to charge owner of the Omaha bar the hive Jacob Gardner. 126 - We are in a New Civil War - The Jacob Gardner Case 00:00:05 - 00:05:16 And? Welcome, Republic. Uber Podcast Name is Brian Kelly. I will be your host for today's program. Broadcasting from the forest, just outside of the anarchists zone in Seattle Washington. My name is Brian Kelly again this is the republic keeping podcast. Our facebook. Number One, twenty, six. Republic Uber Dot Com website etcetera for the social media connections and more and let's kick this off like every other broadcast in. Thank God for good health and the ability to be here sharing. With you today and. Wondering where that extra sound is coming from and I just figured it out I was like, wow, weird. ECHO in my. Ear. I forgot to turn the volume down on one of my Monitoring Devices, not that you all care but anyway good morning. Welcome and thanks for joining lots to go through today. Today's program. titled. America's new civil war. And at the risk of that being hyperbole, let me talk to you a little bit about why I'm saying this. This has been a conversation I've been having for. Literally, decades I remember. Over twenty years ago. Sitting in a parking, lot of the newspaper I was working out with my friend Julian and we were discussing the political landscape in America, and I told him at that point that I thought that the country was going to break up into four or five countries someday. That was my view then and it's still not very different today. My view was that the west coast would split off and become its own country. That the mid West would separate into at least one country. And, the eastern seaboard would separate into. Two Countries a northeast and southeast country along, and these would be along values in ideological lines was my view and because the reality is that there's nothing about Nebraska. And Kansas and Iowa. That's like Oregon. Or Florida. And it's not just the geography of climate. It's the attitudes and the people and the things that they value. Now people are people but the culture you grow up in determines a lot about what you value in consider. To be important and So I, told Julian years ago that I thought that the country was going to break up into. Three four or five countries and along ideological lines, and we are seeing these ideological divisions happen and IT IS A. To say IT'S A it's a war. That's hyperbole, right? Well, I don't know. You know typically in a war you have. Military engaged on both sides right and sometimes in guerrilla wars, the military aren't official military. There are a paramilitary group right or a loosely organized group and the Sikh Kita station seems to be the. Once these things start to invade your neighborhood. And stop being just police chasing criminals. It's the point to me. It seems that there's a line that's crossed, and so I've collected together quite a few pieces of video and audio from around the country of these intimidation squads at work and this has resulted in. The death of a man named Jake Gardner and we're GONNA go in depth into that one case before the show is over today. So let's jump right in here with some of the first things these intimidation squads are as I say ramping up all over the country and you've seen some of the violence that's happened at the protests including some shootings, right? Well, this is just real quick. This is a man who was beat up a few weeks ago. I think just like August twentieth. So about a month ago, I guess in Portland take a listen and here is the video this man. Hearing. From the truck driver who was brutally beaten over the weekend by demonstrators in Portland. Meanwhile, protesters are renewing their battles with federal agents correspondent. Dan Springer has the latest tonight. Tonight Portland Police are wondering where the next attack will be last night. It was back at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office with of federal officers inside Portland. Police declared a riot after protesters started a fire broke several windows and through softball sized rocks at officers we all should be condemning the violence that's occurring increasingly. There are calls for citizens to rise up and say, no more police chief Chuck Lavelle wrote the solution is in a critical mass of community and partners coming together to denounce this criminal activity and call it out for the first time since his brutal beating over the weekend at heinous speaking out saying he stopped to help a transgender woman who has been. 00:05:17 - 00:10:04 Hearing from the truck driver who was brutally beaten over the weekend by demonstrators in Portland meanwhile, protesters are renewed. On the side of the road and she's trying to figure out what happened to me. Hater says he was called a racist during the attack police are still looking for their main suspect. Marquees love who reportedly posted on social media. Video. Bunny. Sorry about that. But that guy was beat up there in. PORTLAND. Okay. So that's okay. Fine gets beat up at the protest. You know that's not a big surprise. You went down the protest, right? You had it coming. Well, what about the Los Angeles police chief? Did He have it come instructors vandalized the home of LAPD chief Michael. Moore last night tonight. There's new concern that this type of activism is doing more harm than good to the Social Justice Movement and drowning out peaceful protests more now from NBC Forest Kim Bulletin Auto. It's a trend many find disturbing protesters going directly to the homes of public officials. Last night, the black future project vandalize the home of La Police chief Michael Moore and plastered signs laced with obscenities on his garage windows in front door. I'm very concern I know that I participated in a number of protests and demonstrations. During my time they've always been at a public place in front of a public facility earl. Affari Hutchinson is president of the L. E. Urban Policy Roundtable, and says protesting his point there. It's always been in a public place in front of a public forum right and so that that's fine that makes sense. You know the protests should be in know used to be down at the courthouse or whatever. Right? It didn't use to ever be. At anybody's home. So that was the LA police chief. That's a big city, right so you know he's a target that makes sense right? Well, how about we start with new video of the Olympia Mayor's home being vandalized this happened during protests last night watch closely there's this one person who appear to spray painted Blm by the door. They're the mayor sent us this video and it also looks like a sign saying Blm, which is obviously stiffer. Black lives matter throughout these protests was already in her window so she's along. So. That's the Olympia Washington mayor and that's The capital of the state of Washington here, and that's not a big city. It's it's a relatively small city. In fact, it didn't have the capital I don't know what what else it would have their. So, then Tucker Carlson is the course of the Fox host right. This is a report from the Australian TV about what happened to him. Now, this stuff isn't in nine enough the media partisanship with the cancel culture with a liberal lift same intent on silencing. Any opposing views? Well, it's played out in another ugly why in the United States influential conservative commentator Tucker Carlson has gone public now about how the Liberal Lift New York Times newspaper has targeted him. Two years ago left-wing journalists publicized our home address in Washington a group of screaming antiques lunatic showed up while I was at work vandalized are home they threatened my wife she called nine one one while hiding in a closet a few weeks later they showed up again at our house for the next year, they sent letters to our home threatening to kill us try to ignore it. It felt cowardly to sell our home and leave. We raised our kids there in the neighborhood and we loved it. But in the end, that's what we did. We have four children it just wasn't worth it. But the New York Times followed us the paper is assigned to political activists called Murray Carpenter to write a story about where we are. Now they've hired a photographer called tristen spins ski to take pictures their story about where we live is slated to run in the paper. This week editors there know exactly what will happen to my family when it does. Run I call them today and I told them but they didn't care. They hate my politics they want this show off the air. If one of my children gets hurt because of a story they wrote they won't consider it Claro damage. They know it's the whole point of the exercise to inflict pain on our family to terrorize us to control what we say. Because this is one of the big concerns I had in starting the show is what is it going to mean to my family? If I make the wrong person angry. Do I want to be a public person and this is what they're trying to do is to keep people from shutting up. And keep people for speaking out or shut people I remember when I. Was Beginning discussing this. Concept I was talking with my boys who both serve in the military and explaining them. 00:10:05 - 00:15:06 This was a real concern. What if the mob comes to my house and you know attacks my wife and my grandkids are my children or anybody else my neighbors? and My boys said to be dad you know were literally there literally people shooting at us. And you're worried about some criticism in this from guys might come to your house. Well, it's you know yeah, it's not just criticism. It's I'm I'm kind of worried that they might actually hurt somebody because it's what they do. Here is outside of Derek Children's home this morning we're also learning more about the now former officers who were involved in George Floyd's death. We go right to Christiane Cordeiro, she is at the scene a thirty eight in Chicago where she was yesterday morning with what she knows today Christiane. Cool Jason We know that there were for responding officers initially we. Understood that there were at least two of them and we now. Have confirmed the identity of one of those responding officers former Minneapolis police officer, Derek Show van was one of the four who responded Monday night he's represented by Attorney Tom? Kelly Kelly represented Saint Anthony Police. Officer your Janas acquitted in the death of Landau Casteel in it 2017 we also learned. was put on leave at least once before and twenty eleven. He was one of five officers involved in a police shooting and little earth. In that case, we're told officers were responding to a shooting the suspect fled and when he didn't stop, he was shot in the Torso Minneapolis police later said that the officers acted appropriately and courageously very different reactions from NPD Cheese Madeira air when he fired Shelvin and his three colleagues yesterday. I stand before you in the city. Of Minneapolis here to say that our deepest condolences, the vast majority of the men and women who probably put on this uniform each and every day understand the important role in relationship we must have. We must have. With all of our community members and when tragedy strikes, it absolutely strikes to the core and we should all be impacted by this. There was a protest massive want here. Of course, you can hear a couple of people who actually just showed up just to show a little bit more of their support. There was also a smaller protests over in Oakdale at Derek Shaw Wtn's home a we understand that about a few dozen people showed up there. Yesterday protesters said enough is enough that they wanted to their presence known the chief of Oakdale. Police also showed up he said that given the circumstances he understands why people are so. Home protested him there and Then we had a repair Ginsberg died the other day and now people are protesting outside of. Mitch McConnell's house. Vote Him out and vote him out they WANNA get rid of Mitch so we go to now. Protest. Washington DC. Bureau bouncers house. See Mayor. Any murder. Cutting a majority. An During So these demonstrations are now happening outside of people's houses right here is the looking at a live picture right now happening now, protesters refusing to leave the condo complex they believe is the home to mayor Ted Wheeler. giving. Him a list of demands tonight. This is coin six news at ten o'clock. Good evening everyone. I'm Jeff Gianola all this comes after around two hundred people marched through northwest Portland earlier this evening before making their way to that condo complex are Jennifer dowling on the scene right now what is the latest Jennifer? Here behind me, there's a massive dance party going on is alive. Cut Her off right there because this is what happens every time the reporters come on and say it's just a dance party. It's a lively crowd. It's nice to be here. But. What happens every time is that the party is early and the people committed a violence or there later, and the violence happens later and every single time the reporters of all gone home and the violence happens and I saw here in Seattle I mean I've witnessed this with my own eyes. This isn't just some speculation. I'm not some guy in some remote place who hasn't seen it. I've been down at the protests repeatedly Seattle and I've seen it these are organized. Events with people, coordinating them, and so on and so forth now. 00:15:08 - 00:20:06 After the break I've got one more to plan were come into the. Break and then we're gonNA come back and we're explore one man's real story that's ended in tragedy now. After the break. So I wanted to hear from this police captain here I. This is a Richmond Virginia, our police chief I guess in Richmond take a listen to Let's see if I got this cute up right and I don't think I'd do. Go, take a listen to this guy. And again there's a there's one incident I think is particularly pointed that truly illustrates. The The seriousness of the issues that we're facing. The mayor mentioned this last night protesters intentionally set a fire to unoccupied building on broad street. This is not the only occupied building that has been set fire to the last two days. But they prohibited us from getting on seeing. We had to force our way. To make a clear path for the department. Protesters intercepted that fire apparatus several blocks away with vehicles. Department scrambling. To the structure far. Inside that home was a child. Officers were able to. GET COMPOSURE BACK Officers were able to help those people out of the House. We were able to get the Fire Department there safely. Can Barely get through it. But when you take a Legitimate issue. And hijack it. For unknown reasons that is unacceptable to me, it's unacceptable to the right police department unacceptable to the city rich. As the mayor said, this isn't Richmond. And it truly is not Richmond. Virginia. Is Not even the mid Atlantic. Intelligence that we're working on presently so that we hope to be able to file charges following up from this, we have people from across the country have traveled. Many states to be here. We know that this is an organized effort. We're committed to try and identify those that are behind it. And we're doing our level best to arrest those that are perpetrating the balance in our community, our city, and our citizens. So. So these guys started fire to building set fire to a building that had people in it. And the adults were able to get out. And a baby was not able to get out. Now I don't know what you call that when they're attacking civilians. For no other reason apparently they lived in the wrong neighborhood. And I I don't know what you call that. So I'm saying, yeah, we're in a civil war because we have what is effectively a traveling funded paramilitary guerilla group the travels around the country and attacks. Anybody who doesn't agree with them who doesn't see it their way now I'm not sure about you but that sounds a lot like a civil war to me. So we get back. We're going to dig into the Jake Gardner case out of Omaha Nebraska in depth and I think you're gonNA find it fascinating and we'll see if you do we'll be right back in a minute and we'll. Explore what's happened there and We'll go from there. Thanks be right back. Welcome back to the Republika podcast broadcasts were we'll call it in. Hell. Thanks for those of you who are joining live on the livestream on facebook on twitter. Youtube appreciate it welcome good morning and There's been this Thing going on all around the country those plan these. Things that people being intimidated right public officials, police, officers, police, chiefs, mayors, etcetera, and you know one of the people that have been intimidated places are prosecutors right? Sometimes the prosecutors get intimidated if they don't act the way that the public wants them to because after all. The. Public has the best view of what's going on. That's why instead of juries now, we're just GONNA go to whatever the crowd thinks. It's ridiculous, right we're not going to do that. But what happens is if the crowd doesn't like the prosecutor's decision, sometimes they show up at the prosecutors house, and so we're going to go through the story now of a man named Jake Gardner. 00:20:07 - 00:25:09 and. This Omaha Nebraska. So this is the first news story. This is the morning after. So let me give you the setup real quick This man Jake Gardner owns a bar. And apparently there were protests there was some damage done. It has bar. As I understand it his father was there and his father and one of the protesters got into a shoving match and I I think maybe his dad's started it not certain how that worked out. But either way this man of Jake Gardner was pulled into it. was armed and a man jumped on him and he shot and fired in what was initially determined to be self. Defense? Here is the first news story from the day after protester is shot and killed in downtown. Omaha last night with the shooter in police custody as the investigation is ongoing senior reporter Jake was a cousy is live with the latest. John More than one hundred people are out here supporting James Skirl Lock. Let me go ahead and step out of the shot. As you can see just eighteen hours ago he was killed less than half a block away where at Thirteenth Harney here. Chance to support him as well as is. Violence especially after so much happened last night right here in the old market. For James Reds? No No justice. No peace. That's legit. Right there. No justice no p fighting back tears diamond Davis fights to keep his name known her friend James Scurr lock the twenty two year old was shot and killed outside the Gatsby bar formerly known as the high that twelve and Harney, last night I everybody to know just keep his name while i. Don't let his name. I said. He pretty cool kid if you get to know. Hundreds of people protesting in the area and many witnessed. The shooting was recorded by several people in videos like this one have been circulating since last night and social media. Police haven't said much as to what happened, but the shooter is not on the streets and charges would have to come from the county attorney the Police Department did detain. Somebody who fired that weapon that individual remains in Omaha police customers jake shooter has not been identified by police but many are talking about who he is is racist. He's a known homophobic. He's a known big at. This is not the first time that's happened. He's been the news several times. And I hope he's held accountable for what he's done. It's not okay. It's not acceptable. I'm not going to speculate as to the the. The content of the character of this individual. I think that will come out and police investigations over time and I think we need to wait for that Davis says screw lock was peacefully protesting like everyone else when he saw a man goes important. Is No peace. No justice, no peace. No justice no peace. Now hear how they set up. He was a white supremacist right that this guy has an. On Thirteenth Street here maybe offer diamond just a few minutes ago and let them know that the alleged shooter is actually in police custody, which was something that they had not known yet, and that he wasn't that person was never actually released. Gardner that they took into custody there now, they were setting up the idea that Jake Gardner is a bad man if you heard that. Because Jake Gardner apparently is a racist they said and so regardless here is the father of. James Spurlock who's the man who was shot by? Gardner good evening John father just wrapped up moments ago. He decided to go ahead and speak out here at the Malcolm X.. Center here in North Omaha. Now, it was a huge turnout, lots of family members and just emotion. That's the easiest way for me to describe it as raw motion is heard tears i. saw tears heard a few laughs. You know remembering him and family members are really hurting right now and wanting you know obviously answers and most of all wanting justice. Now Senator Justin Wayne was here he spoke on behalf of the family said he'd be representing them and they would not take any questions today they asked that. You just provide the family with the space that they need and also with closure for them. So really just lots of people here supporting this family and we'll have more for you coming up at ten o'clock tonight reporting. Against, supporting, the family. You know whatever happened their family didn't do. Whatever they're young man did if you did anything right So of course, there were more protests were visible but remained in the background as dozens of protesters showed up tonight at three different locations including for a protest downtown at the site where two other planned events were called off. 00:25:09 - 00:30:18 That's where three news now reporter Sydney grade joins us live with Lake City. John Good evening. So I'm not in the shot right now because I want you all to take a good look at what is happening right now police officers and protesters from earlier this evening have escorted those protesters rather over to the area near the hive were they've taken that wreath that Lock now, if you can see the woman and the biggest church. Walk down the street There is a large group of protesters. It's not just the two people you see how? They're going to. Protest continue once again in Omaha tonight, this time, not just for James Kerouac book for what's happening in Portland reporter Sydney Gray was at the gathering house more. Hey John did evening well, dozens of protesters gathered in the mid area. They tell me that the fight for justice locally and the country must continue until they begin to see a real change. Now, the group Pro Block as the one who led the event today it started at Turner Boulevard and Form Street organizers. Say they wanted to shine a light on the city's own racial injustices such as the murder of James? Skirl he's the twenty two year old black man no. Is Anybody missing something important here. The entire issue is supposed to be about police brutality, right? Jay Gardner the shooter is a businessman. He owns a bar. And whether or not he's a racist or not I don't know. Any may be. But being racist is reprehensible and disgusting, but I don't think it's illegal. And I don't think it's a capital crime. At least not last I checked it wasn't now the district attorney there of course is the one who determines whether or not charge right the police go ahead and do the investigation and gathered the evidence they bring it over to the DA and the DA decides whether or not to charge. Here is Mr Klein, the district attorney old market intentional report. Tonight County. Attorney explains his answer senior reporter Jake Gorski was there and brings us the latest strike. Would J first off those peaceful protesters here at five o'clock right outside the courthouse have since moved on their outside the courthouse and City Building County Attorney Don Klein says after reviewing all the surveillance video. GonNa, pause him for a second. Did you notice how he said those peaceful protesters they couldn't just say protesters they always have to all the media. It's like an order say the word peaceful because peaceful gives us sympathy L. and witnesses that he heard from including the shooter prosecutors all agreed it was self defense or the father of the victim says doesn't want violence, but he does want something to happen in court. Cell Phone and surveillance video showed the altercation that leads to the death of twenty two year old James Scurr lock late Saturday night. The shooter is identified as Jacob Gardner the owner of the HIVE and gatsby bars. It shows a scuffle with gardeners dad push a protester and his pushed back. Gardner backs up when approached and showed a gun when two people jumped on him, he fired two shots but didn't hit anyone and then skirl jumped on his back. That's been Gardner said he was being choked and shot him once and the clavicle his version is an IP felt that I felt that. Determines that pretty of getting serious bodily injury getting pummeled or choked out with this guy on top of me and I asked the guy to get off me you wouldn't off me Klein says he based decision off the evidence in the case and not on emotions which are still very high screw locks case. So now this Guy Klein goes out and The district attorney either he says, no charges self-defense. What do you think happens next? I don't have video that nobody got it. But the mob shore leasing if anybody got it, I couldn't find it. The mob showed up at Klein's house. No justice. No peace outside the District Attorney's House no justice. No peace. No justice. No peace. So here's a guy who spent his entire life. Prosecuting crime. He knows a crime when he sees it, he knows self defense when he sees it. And he says, we're not going to prosecute this guy because it was self defense. But. Then the mob shows about side is house and here's what happens. Next good evening I'm trying to Brazil wall though Douglas County Attorney Down Klein feels the shooting was justified and self defense he's taking a step let others take a look at the case senior reporter Dick was Kathy joins US live J.. Jetty right now, we have Senator Ernie Chambers addressing a group of citizens rallying outside of the City Hall and courthouse area talking about the importance of voting as well as standing up for their rights and they heard the community they heard the protests Klein says he will ask for a grand jury to review the killing of James. 00:30:18 - 00:35:02 KEROUAC. He will petitioned the District Court to convene a grand jury for a special prosecutor to examine the case late Saturday night James spurlock was shot and killed outside the hive and gatsby bars in the old market. Surveillance video shows the owner of the Bar J. Garner in a confrontation with protesters when he's backing up and flashes a gun. To people jump on him and he fires two shots. Then spurlock gets on his back. And Gardner shoots him killing him Gardner said it was in self defense and Klein agreed. Now, that there will be a grand jury squawks family wants more witnesses and videos to come forward. I certainly believe in transparency and I have no problem with any oversight about decisions that we've made I think the black community for goodness grand jury painful. I understand the pressures on everybody. From the judicial, board to the community, and when we raise our voice about an injustice that we can make a difference I think that was huge for our community to see I think that was huge when I say our community I'm not just talking North Omaha but the entire, Omaha community. To Munich and so they pressured Don Client, and the family says there. Are from justice, but on the right track, grand jury impaneled right. But that grant and in the grand jury jury gets empanelled and in the meantime there is this entire. Public Relations campaign going on. This is part of reason the crowd has outside today is protest the. Douglas County not putting charges on the killer of James Spurlock a twenty, two year old male who was shot at the corner of thirteenth and Harney on Saturday yesterday out of the protest I talked with skirl ox brother and his mother who told me a little bit about the guy they called you. He by Davis, he lived life to the full. Adventurous. Yes, that's the big heart. And use a Momma's boy emotions apparent never wants to feel this is the new reality for those closest James Skirt I've of. All Life. With that, kid his goal to tell you that anybody can tell you that Nicholas Harden was James Girl, ox brother, and so. James Skirt lock apparently was saint, James Saint. James was absolutely the best I guess Saint James. Could. Do. No wrong. But Saint James jumped a man who had just fired his weapon twice. And then the man fired his weapon at James. Sherlock. and. So it James Scarlett may have been. The greatest guy ever and pure is the wind driven snow but at least on this one night. It didn't work out so well. So here's what happens next. Panel the grand jury. Right. In the grand jury becomes a place for the case to be made not that this man. was in fear for his life. But that this man was a racist and therefore anything he did was suspect and because he was a racist, he was going to be indicted and so we don't know what went on in the grand jury jury for sure. But here is the report special prosecutor. Frederic Franklin said tonight it was new evidence that led the grand jury to make its decision to indict Jake Gardner. Most of that evidence he says came from Gardner himself three news. Now, reporter Rudolph Tonight has more on the charges, what they mean and what happens next. When they came from Gardner himself what that means is that that they found things on his facebook page or in his life. That were evidence that he was a racist and so therefore it because of his attitude. He. Doesn't have the right of self defense is what it appears like. On May thirtieth during night violent protesting regarding the death of George Floyd twenty two year old James Skirl was shot and killed by former old market bar owner jake. Gardner shortly after Douglas County Attorney Don Klein determined that Gardner acted in self defense and no charges were filed. Then after pushback from the public, a grand jury was called as well as a special prosecutor to look into the case client himself petition for the grand jury to review his decision, the investigation continued and about sixty people were interviewed by the Omaha. 00:35:02 - 00:40:04 Police Department the jury had the chance to look at new evidence and deliberated last. BA- grand jury at the point in time that they made their decision. It's also slam dunk. Much more information available to them Then what was had at the time that the initial decision was made special prosecutor Frederic Franklin said, most of the new evidence came from Gardner himself through his phone and facebook messages. There was evidence that was gathered and presented to the grand jury about activity. That Jim Gardner was engaged in. Prior to even coming in contact with James Go lock the grand jury routine Heen people indicted Gardner on four charges manslaughter the use of a firearm in the Commission of a felony attempted first degree assault and terroristic threats. Her restrict stem from the verbal exchange between Gardner and Scurr lock that night. Franklin also said the jury spent more time to liberate here's. The prosecutor I think the Monday after. James Locke was was shot and killed the press conference conducted by Don Klein and Brenda Beetle indicated that There wouldn't be charges forthcoming because there was a determination that the action by Jay Gardner was self defense within a few days there became a request for a grand jury to do the investigation. The Omaha Police Department did continue with their investigation. They interviewed approximately sixty people in conjunction with This homicide investigation, they received video clips from members of the public who were down any all market, the grand jury. At, the point in time that they made their decision. It's almost a slam dunk that they had much more information available to them. Than what was had at the time that the initial decision was made and of course, we have more information so because they had sixty days and all this other time. So you're a back in just a minute and we'll show you what happened with Jay Gardner you're not gonNA believe how this turned out Republican for PODCASTS. Again, my name is Brian Kelly enthusiast. Show the way this works listener supported broadcasting, and what that means. There's no big company behind it. It's your meet together. I do the work that you support the show. Simple I asked listeners three things from. People pray for me because I I need wisdom inside any balance and he'd energy and all the things we need to do this well. On top of the fulltime job in fulltime life and. I asked people share the show whatever device you're on right now probably has a share and subscribe button. Make sure you're subscribed in good and hit that share button and share it to. All of your social media, and even if you've done that before, it's good to do it once a week every. So often let people know you're listening to the show and that you've found something valuable here so that they will see that in join you in the last thing is visit the link to support show financially Patriot dot com slash republic keeper if you'd be so kind that would be awesome. If you can find the time to do that. So Jake Gardner Jacob Gardner is the bar owner here in Omaha who? was indicted then by the grand jury. And the indictment just happened a few days ago last week I believe and. So we saw the video tape there of the prosecutor and the then appointed a special prosecutor who impaneled a grand jury, and so this is video I believe this is from just yesterday. This. Is well I'll just play the report developing tonight a bar owner from Omaha Nebraska recently indicted in the shooting death of a black man related to protests. There was found dead in Hillsborough today Jacob Gardner faced four charges in the shooting death of twenty two year old James, scurr? Lock. Gardner shots scurr lock outside his bar as protests were happening nearby early reports of that incident show that bar was being vandalized at the time. A judge issued a warrant for gardeners arrest on Friday. Hillsborough police reported finding Gardner's body near a medical clinic off northeast. Ninth Street this afternoon in his attorney confirmed that Gardner died by suicide. So the District Attorney. Says that Jake Gardner? Acted in self defense. The videotapes submitted to the district attorney caused the district attorney to say. 00:40:05 - 00:45:03 That Jake Gardner. Acted in self defense. Then, the mob shows up and demands a grand jury impaneled. Now, the grand jury gets empanelled, and of course, in the environment where if you don't do it the mob once. They're gonNA come to your house. The grand jury. decided. That, they would charge him. And he decided. That, he couldn't get a trial. Apparently. He didn't WANNA come back and face justice and you know I don't know maybe he's guilty. Maybe. He's guilty maybe the grand jury got it. Right and the prosecutor got it. Wrong to begin with I don't know. I know that the mob drew drove this. Here's Jacob. Gardeners attorneys. Missing Martin. By one. Price. Only a are. had. Terrible. Is. Tolleson. Lavar. Laura. Yeah, and so obviously, it's a terrible tragedy when somebody commits suicide for any reason. And But I think it's especially tragic when they're driven to it. There was the case couple years ago I think of the young woman. Who? Was I. don't remember her name now and I just I wasn't thinking about it. So it's our looked it up but. I think he has probably remember the young woman who is encouraging her boyfriend to take his life. You know just go ahead and commit suicide, and then he did and she ended up prosecuted for it because she incited him to it and I, think that there. I. Don't know if there's anything criminal that's happened here. Maybe the only criminal thing that happened was that Jacob. Gardner. Shot. James spurlock when he shouldn't have maybe the grand jury. Got It. Right I don't know. What I know is that had the vigilante mob not shown up. To Don Klein's house. There wouldn't have been a grand jury. So I, guess if Jacob Gardner was in fact guilty. And we will never know. Because he didn't, there's not going to be a trial right and whatever evidence was given a grand jury to compel them to make the indictment is grand juries are secret and sealed, and so that evidence is not gonna come out now because there won't be a trial, maybe it'll be leaked. But. If in fact. Jacob Gardner was guilty of a crime and should have been punished. Then the actions, the mob. Ended up in a grand jury and an indictment that should have happened. That case the mob was I guess. Righteous in what they accomplished. But I would still say that even if. Even so You. Don't go to somebody's house. You could maybe just protest bigger louder longer at City Hall. There's got to be at some level. And this is part of why I open the show saying it's a civil war. You know there there's the old saying says, all's fair. In love and war. Translation there are no rules. When IT COMES TO CONFLICT The rule is survive. Because the other guy wants to kill you. I hate to be so. Blunt. But the other side in this conflict wants to kill us who are conservatives they want to kill us who are religious people. And they are doing it. And if you stand in the way, they're okay with you as long as you're the kind of religious person that says, I'll go ahead and adapt my religion to you. Know, I had an episode a lot long ago where I Read that right from the DNC platform. Do you know what the DNC? Platform says on religion. It says that we embrace a progressive view of religion. That is not discriminatory toward anyone. 00:45:04 - 00:50:15 Translation. Your views about homosexuality. In your church, they're not going to be allowed anymore. You're old fashioned. Marriage and divorce or not allow that. and. So the idea is that we are literally I don't think it's figurative. We are in a war. And I remember in the. Pamphlet Commonsense. Published way back at the Revolutionary War time by Thomas Paine home not a fan of honest as early but regardless. When That was passed way back then or when that was written way back. Then one of the things Thomas Paine said these are the Times that try men's souls right and he was putting in there put in there something about that if you're not. Willing to step up to the battle that maybe you're not worthy of the prize that will be achieved afterwards. And I would say that to all of you listening and to myself. At this point that it's time to prepare to do battle? And Battle is ideological and battle maybe physical depending on what's happening, and so I'm attempting here with the Republican broadcast to be in the ideological side of the fight. On the idea that if we can win the argument, we don't have to win the armed conflict. And I'm trying to help provide. Ammunition to our side. If you will in the conflict so that it doesn't become an armed conflict anymore than it's already become. But realistically, at this point, we are going to see I'll just give you the future here. So you know what we're GONNA see. There are several events coming up that are going to that are going to be Convulsive. The president is going to appoint. A Supreme Court justice probably. Amy conybeare. The Senate is going to hold hearings. Are Going to have a confirmation hearing and all of that before the election. Those are going to cost protests. The officers in the Jacob Blake? Shooting. will or will not be charged. That'll cost protests doesn't matter that they're charger not. Charged, it won't be enough if they're charged with a maximum crime, the trial won't be over yet. So it doesn't matter they're going to be protests. The Minneapolis officers are going to get their day in court and those. Verdicts are gonNA come out and whether or not that will happen before the election or not doesn't matter when those verdicts come out it doesn't matter what the verdicts are. There will be protests. So, there are already several events queued up. In the calendar of the left to disrupt America. and to try and create less trust. In how things work. So I'm going to grab a real quick break phones are open if you want to call in and if not great, we'll be right back and we'll go from there. So. Will Offer just a minute I'll be right back. Thanks. Welcome Max. Republic. Keeper podcast. Again, my name is Brian Kelly. Thanks for joining and. Sponsoring the show those you do and all that sort of stuff. So. Wrapped up today you know the been going forward as we think about this and think about what is your role In the coming conflict and first of all in the avoidance thereof. Right. And so I would say the the first and foremost. The thing we gotta do is we make sure that we're going to get Donald. Trump. reelected. And I mean that. I know that in the short term. It probably means more violence. In. The short term reelecting Donald Trump probably means more violence. That when he's reelected, the left is GONNA lose their mind even more. The good news is. When he's reelected. He won't have to be concerned about being reelected and what that means is that you're going to see these protests and ANTIFA violent leftist movements. Absolutely crushed. Crushed into oblivion. People. are going to be prosecuted into long-term jail sentences my noses in here. Sorry. Trying to avoid sneezing. One of those things, right So Once. The reelection happens I do think that trump is going to have the freedom to use all of the policing powers that they have. At their disposal to end this and what I'm hoping is that many of these arrests that have been happening in the last couple of months have been pulling some of the ringleaders of these things out of the situation, and hopefully, what that'll mean is that there will be less violence at the night of the election. 00:50:15 - 00:54:44 And we'll find out but I expect that on election night we are GonNa see lots and lots of violence when the trump landslide is announced And again, I, it is going to be a trump landslide and it's very, very easy. To, understand you know if you look at Donald Trump and I know that some of you who don't like Donald Trump thinks that he is the consummate liar. and. Perhaps that's true. But he's genuinely appears to be just having a great time on the campaign trail. and. What that means to me is that. The internals that they have. don't have them concerned. He doesn't look rattled. They don't appear to be behaving in panic mode he's speaking about the future. In a way that sounds like he really does believe he will be there. and. Joe Biden is more tentative in his approach. So on one quick little Vignette with you about. The way these things work the way people. Work Guess. In. and. I have had an opportunity to meet with. A public official locally a couple of. Times. Let's just say this this way I'm careful I don't WANNA reveal it is A local public official, a couple of times this public official has an important objective to accomplish in from a communication standpoint. In terms of getting the word out about certain things and. The audience for this show is not small. It's growing like crazy. The livestream doesn't have a big audience, but the podcast has a large audience in the livestream is only ten days old or two weeks old and it's growing. But. I met with this guy in the reside. Tell the story is the first time I met met with him. I handed him a business card for the podcast and I said you know I know you've really got story that you want told in your frustrated that you're not getting. The coverage. So why don't you come on the show and then you can we can repurpose that audio video into other things to, and you know we'll. We'll do in his yeah. That would that sounds great. Why don't you reach out to my team? and. Okay I'll do that. So I did. No response didn't the answer. So, then I encountered this individual at another event. And reintroduce myself. And he said. Yeah. He I remember. Weren't you going to get a hold of my communications person wherever it wasn't see I did and? I didn't hear back. All. Really. Well. Why don't you? Why don't you go ahead and just reach out to them again And I said, well, how about this? I'm handing you business car. How about you reach out. and. That resulted in. No. Response. And so the reason I tell the story is. This was a person who has a mon- Yana. Somebody else not me. Instead of a a right now, and I'll do it kind of an attitude and I can see the difference in results in people based on leadership style and I'm watching Joe Biden, and he is in the Montana. Not Me Camp. And I'm seeing Donald trump very much in the. Man of action, Champ And those are very different kinds of ways approaching the world and. I'll just leave you those thoughts. Tomorrow. I don't know I. Think we'RE GONNA dig into Seattle Anarchist Zone A. Little Bit. Not sure some of the things going on. So all these welcome to Jimmy topic suggestions. So on on the facebook messenger at the Republican Uber Dot. com or call the phone number eight, six, six, nine, hundred, eighty, three eleven and leave me your show ideas, topic ideas at Cetera. So thanks for your time and attention this morning please. Do visit the Website Republic keeper Dot Com and find time to sponsor the show if you'd be so kind. Thanks again have a great day and talk to you. Tomorrow.  

Zach chats with Aubrey Blanche, the Director of Equitable Design & Impact at Culture Amp, about re-imagining tech and belonging. She discusses her complicated relationship with race and identity, talks about how to effectively combat diversity fatigue, and much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Aubrey and check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan!Connect with Aubrey on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Visit her personal website.Check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.Struggling with your Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) work? Kanarys—a Black-founded company—has your back. Regardless of where you are on your DEI journey, we arm you with the insights you need now to take action now. From audits to assessments to data-informed strategy, we'd love to be the partner you have been looking for. Email stacey@kanarys.com or learn more at https://www.kanarys.com/employerTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know what we're doing, right? Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. And what does that mean? That means we're having authentic conversations that what? Center and do what else? Amplify. Who? Black. And who else? Brown people. I keep on doing this weird call-and-response thing. I guess I'm just really excited. But the point is we're having these conversations, and we typically have them with movers and shakers, and that could be executives to entrepreneurs to social capital investors to activists to elected officials to public servants, authors, you know, whoever. We're talking to everybody. Typically these people are Black and brown, but every now and then we'll have some white or white-presenting folks on the podcast as well, and we're really passionate about that. Our goal is that if you're a Black or brown person or one of the onlys in your workplace that you listen to this and feel affirmed and heard, and if you're not one of those people that you take this opportunity, a rare opportunity, to really hear some frank conversations about, and from the persectives of, Black and brown people about being Black and brown at work, and you can use that information to be a better ally. See what I'm saying? So it helps everybody, and so like I said, every week we have an incredible guest, so let me just put our own collective back at Living Corporate. We've had some incredible guests though, and today's no different. We have Aubrey Blanche. Aubrey Blanche is The Mathpath - that's a math nerd and an empath, which is wild because that's, like, the Dark Side and the Light Side of The Force coming together. She's like a Gray Jedi. Anyway, director of equitable design and impact at Culture Amp and a start-up investor and adviser. Through all of her work, she seeks to question, re-imagine and re-design systems--now, y'all know we're gonna double-click on that in a minute--and practices that surround us to ensure that all people can access equitable opportunities and build a better world. Her work is undergirded--I like that word, "undergirded." Undergirded. Just say that to y'allselves, y'all. Undergirded. Undergirded by her training in social scientific methods and grounded in the fundamental dignity and value of every person. Aubrey, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Aubrey: Hey. Thank you so much for having me. I feel, like, genuinely blown away at the idea that I get to join you, and also your intro makes me want to cry. I just love what you're doing. I love the mission and the vision. And "undergirded" is such a fun word.Zach: It's so great, right? There's certain words that are just really nice to say. "Undergirded." "Plethora."Aubrey: Right? I mean, [I'm a?] deeply over-educated human being, so just occasionally getting to use those silly $17 words that you don't to, but [?].Zach: You don't have to. Erykah Badu once said, "What good do your words do if they don't understand you?" But that's for another conversation, another day. Look, I read your bio, or rather let me be honest--I took out, like, the first 20% of your bio for the sake of this conversation, but what does all of that really mean? Like, what do you actually do?Aubrey: Yeah, what do I do? I feel like what I try to do is crush white supremacy with capitalism, which is confusing conceptually, but really what I think I try to do is harness the privilege that I have and I guess the oppression I've experienced as this very liberal human, and we can talk about what that means, and try to use the privilege that I've had and try to figure out how to scale those out. Like, that's the [?] thing in my soul that I'm trying to do, and right now I happen to do that within the context of technology and investing and finance. What I'm really interested in is learning the rules of systems so that we can begin to evolve those systems so that they begin breaking themselves down where they are harming people.Zach: I like that. I like that a lot. There's a lot of nuance in what you just said, so that's why I'm really excited to get into this. In fact, let's talk a little bit about, like, this moment where we are, right? And before we do that, like, let's zoom in on our interaction about you being on this platform, right?Aubrey: Right. So for folks on the podcast, basically what happened is Zach was awesome and reached out to have me on, and my first sort of response was "Hey, want to be clear that I'm white-passing. I want to make sure that we have sort of BIPOC folks in front of my voice. I'm really happy to speak sort of to my people, but I also want to be respectful of not taking up more space than I need to," and that for me is because--it's really important to me just, like, on a basic, ethical level. Like, we have this moment. It's always been important to listen to those voices, and I've tried to create that space, but it's especially important now because so many people are listening. So I think I'm trying to figure out where my role is in this moment as a woman of color but someone who does have white privilege in so many settings, and then on top of that I'm trans-racially adopted, so there's even more nuance inside that sort of like--Zach: Wow.Aubrey: Yeah, it's a lot.Zach: That is a lot. Okay, so when you say trans-racially adopted, like, your parents are what ethnicity?Aubrey: Yeah. So I'm mixed, and I'm Mexican-American, and as of about a couple weeks ago I found that the other part is Irish. Fun fact - adoption is weird and keeps coming back to you. So my adoptive mother is second-gen American on both sides, Euro-American, and then my adopted father is actually Euro-American and Indigenous. So he's Choctaw and has been an Indigenous legal activist in addition to being sort of corporate counsel, but my dad, what's interesting is despite the fact that I grew up sort of in the Indigenous community and things like that is my dad is also white-passing. So my whole adoptive family looked hella white, but we actually had a really complex sort of racial identity within our family.Zach: I mean--so I think it's important, right? I mean, we're gonna get there in a minute, but... so you operate in this space, right? I know when I first saw your picture I was like--do you watch Steven Universe?Aubrey: I don't.Zach: Okay. So you should check out Steven Universe, 'cause, like, you give me strong Rose Quartz vibes. And it's a compliment. Like, you should look up Rose Quartz. She's great. But you kind of look like a star. Like, you do all these talks and all these things, and so outside looking in it's like--I think you sit in this space that's really interesting. So I'm not gonna profile you, 'cause I've listened to what you actually have to say, but you sit in this space that's, like, you speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, you are white-passing--like, your experience and your identity is much more complex than that, but you sit in this very influential space and it's, like, kind of--what I'm curious about is, considering the space that you've inhabited historically around this work, and when you think about this moment--like, it's kind of like a watershed moment, right? Like, people are really starting to call D&I institutions to account, particularly white women in these spaces and groups. I'm curious, like, is there anything right now that you're more sensitive to? You kind of talked a little bit about you've been thinking about it more. Like, where are you at just emotionally and mentally around this work right now?Aubrey: Yeah. So I think, like, the Overton window of what we can talk about to white people has shifted, and so what I mean by that is my personal philosophy is that I'm someone who was born in a situation that was let's just say much rougher than the one I got adopted into, and something I've always carried with me is--like, the phrase I use to describe it is "Little girls born like me do not sit in rooms and talk to billionaires." It's just a fact. Statistically speaking, there's no reason I should be in the place in the world that I am. And so what I think about is I've moved through these very white supremacist systems, right? Like, I got to survive 'cause I need more SPF than some people, and I've learned how those systems work, but the problem is I always felt really alienated by them because they didn't align with my sense of self, because for a lot of complicated reasons I really have been socialized and racialized as a Latina because of the social context I grew up in, and I didn't actually understand whiteness until I went to college and people stopped being racist to me, and I was like, "Wow, I didn't know that was optional." Truly, and it sounds really silly to someone I think, but just given the specific circumstances of my life that happened. So throughout my 20s as I sort of my grew in my consciousness on this I kind of said, "There are particular spaces I can speak to that people who are darker than me can't," and I own and acknowledge that that is a relic and a fact of a white supremacist system, but it's also still true. So what I try to do, and I will admit imperfectly, which is why I think we need people to keep us accountable to this integrity, is I try to talk to people who are going to listen to me more or I try to say things to shift the Overton window so that when darker people of color say them they receive less abuse. So I recognize when I say something first--and I say first meaning in ths space, not that it's my magical idea, that I'm less likely to just get shit on for it because I look like Karen. And so I think about it like, "Can I be the linebacker for Black women? Can I normalize that idea so that we can make that space less hostile so then I can go, "Now listen to who you should listen to, and let me bring that voice into the room"? So I think that's my dual responsibility, and now because suddenly we're seeing communities actually capable of listening to BIPOC folks without immediately abusing I'm much more careful about where I step back, because I think I have less internal intuition about where the correct action is, and so I'm trying to be more deferential. So that's where I am, but I wouldn't say that I know what I'm doing. I'm figuring it out. Zach: No, that's a really honest answer, and thank you for the context and background. I think your premise, what you started off with in terms of your purpose, is different than most folks. Like, if you ask most people their purpose, like, they're not going to say what their real purpose is, because most folks--painting with a wide brush, but I mean what I'm about to say--most folks' goal is to, by some degree, be white men, right? So, like, their goal is to get as much power as they can. So, like, your whole framing of, like, "I'm gonna block for this other person so that they can have a platform to actually speak, I'm gonna leverage my access and my power and my privilege to then create space for darker-skinned Latinx, for Black women, for other people who are societally, historically in different ways just on their face," no pun intended. Like, that's just not the typical goal, right? So we've talked a little bit about the nuances of your identity and your background, and that's incredible. I'd like to talk more about the concept of being white-presenting while also at the same time being a person of color, right? My challenge, Aubrey, right now is that, like, that "person of color" term is starting to become this, like, junk drawer thing where, like, everybody's a person of color, but we don't really specify or name identity in this work, even now. So, like, that's why with Living Corporate, we don't say "we center marginalized experiences of people of color at work," we say Black and brown because we really want to be explicit with who we're talking about. You know, you brought up being white-presenting. I'd like to hear more about the nuances of, from your perspective, Latinx identity and how you present versus culture and ethnicity, and let's also add, like, the dynamic of how people perceive you.Aubrey: So I think it's something I think about a lot, and I want to bring in another piece of my identity that's been really helpful for me in figuring this stuff out, which is I'm also a queer person. I'm, like, bisexual or pansexual or--I don't know, whatever's something that's definitely not definitely gay and not definitely straight, and I don't really think about it much harder than that, but I have a lot of things that are, like, queer signifiers in terms of my identity but, like, could also just be confused for [alt?] straight people. So again, most of my identities are invisible and liminal, and the way that I think about it is that we talk about that identity construction is a process, and so I can't change that, like, I didn't grow up in a Latin family, for example, and I would never lie about that. Something that was really interesting to me was--I have a friend who's Indigenous who gave me a framework for thinking about this because I've struggled with my legitimacy as, like, part of the Latinx community or how do I relate to this label, "people of color"? I have a complicated set of feelings with that language but think it can be useful in terms of identifying a collective. For me it was really about who I am, and my identity is actually not something that can be challenged. The fact is, right, my lineage comes from people in Mexico, but I also can acknowledge that I have both colonizer and colonized in my DNA, and that is something [I have to?] deal with, but the thing that a friend of mine said that gave me the legitimacy that my identity is real is he said, "I can't accept that the fact that we are pale means we are no longer from our ancestors, otherwise they would have been right that they could [BLEEP] the indigeniety out of us." And that, like, is probably pretty harsh, but for me I was like, "Yeah, you're right. There's an energy. There's a spirit. There's a culture." Now, I, for my own well-being did need to be put in a different family than the one I was originally born into. I've had to connect with and sort of become a part of my culture as an adult, so I've had a little bit of a different experience because of what was important for me. And so I think there's that, but I think to pretend, like, my experience in terms of economics, in terms of the way that I have experienced racism and racialization, are meaningfully different than most or a big portion of the Latinx community, and I think for me that tells me what my role should be. So I'm grateful for the folks who, like, welcome me into the community and don't do the, like, "You're not legitimate 'cause you have a different story," a story that also understands--here's a fun fact - my adoptive mother is the most incredible person I've ever met, absolutely saved my life, and also we know that women of the dominant race, you know, bringing children from the colonized race into their family is [?]. Like, both of those things are true, and so for me I say because I have this almost armor in the systems we live in, my role is to listen to my community and advocate to the majority for it because I can be a translator, because I can move between, and so rather than seeing my ability to play with those systems of oppressions as questions about my legitimacy, I relate to them as in they give me a special role for my activism in the same way I think each of us have a special role in the way that we bring our activism to life in line with our purpose and our unique privileges and oppressions. So yeah, that was really deep for you, but that's my honest answer, and I think I try to hold the humility that, like, I've definitely [BLEEP] up, right? I've definitely done things that were wrong, but I try to surround myself with people who tell me that when it's happening so I can at least try to minimize the way that, you know, my white fragility or my internalized racism or any other -isms aren't impacting the people around me.Zach: I mean, you out here just casually dropping wild bombs. You're doing a phenomenal job. You should continue on this path. Like, stay here. So let's talk a little bit about the culture summit in 2019 that you were at a guest speaker, a keynote speaker [at,] and you talked about diversity fatigue in tech, right? So it's interesting--we're going to continue to nail on this the next few questions, but I feel as if--so the majority has had to be aware or care about Black people for... let's see here, has it been, like, three months? Two-and-a-half months? Like, it's been a handful of months. Like, it hasn't been that long, and people are already talking about being tired. So, like, I'm curious about when you think about the concept of diversity fatigue with, like, white leaders, and especially as you think about it at an organizational level, like, what have you seen work well to manage diversity fatigue?Aubrey: Yeah. I think the thing about it--and this really relates to this idea that I say a lot, which is, like, [BLEEP] D&I, and what I don't actually mean is, like [BLEEP] the goal, and I think they're actually related things. People are tired. Like, I want to sit there and be like, "How dare you get tired?" But I understand how the human nervous system works, so I have to, like, deal with that as a real constraint. But I feel like diversity fatigue is partially happening because everybody's had the same ten diversity talks for five years. They, like, put some money into branding and putting a Black face on their website, and then threw their hands up and said, "Why isn't racism done?" And so when you describe it that way you're like, "Oh, yeah, that was never going to work in the first place." So I think the solution to diversity fatigue, rather than us, like, yelling at people who are tired, which is just going to make them turn off, and I, like, hold in my heart the frustration that we have to do this, right, because people are tired. They've done enough. But again, philosophical versus practical rationalism there. I think it's this move to equitable design that actually I think fights diversity fatigue, because what are people tired of? They're tired of being lectured at. They're tired of not doing. So instead of saying, "We care about D&I," my response is "If you don't have a budget and you don't have a time allocation, I don't care and you don't count," 'cause I'm sorry, your caring didn't help anyone. And that's what equitable design is, right? It's about what saying "What is my plan? What is my process? What is my data about what's broken and what is my idea and my action about how we'll try to fix it?" And when you go with that methodology, suddenly everybody gets a job. So maybe it's--I'm speaking about Culture Amp in this exact moment, our programs, right? Our Black employees' job right now is to attend the mental health program we're offering for them and to take care of themselves. That is their job.Zach: That is so healthy.Aubrey: Right? Like, that is your job right now. In our company anti-racism strategy, our Black [campers?], your job is to take care of yourself. We've made it clear. We've brought in experts. My job is to build the corporate strategy, you know? Our CEO's job is to fully fund the plan. This equitable design idea gives everyone a job, and it's hard to get fatigued with something when you've given people, like, little win breadcrumbs along the way. So I'm not [perfect?], and if folks want to they can check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan online. We didn't just publish the commitment, we published the operating plan, and at the end of this sort of six-month cycle we'll provide an update for folks because accountability matters. It's real. Cultureamp.com/antiracism if you want to check it out. The pillars are easy, which is support and care, accountability, education, and then access. So for me that's what equitable design is. It's everyone taking a look at the actions that they're already taking in their day and going, "How can I design this to create a more equitable impact?" So maybe you're giving a career coaching to that friend of a friend's kid. Why don't you ask that student to find an underrepresented classmate who you're also gonna give a career coaching conversation to? I'm telling you. I did it last month. When you read a book written by a Black woman, why don't you make sure you go online and write a review for it, because then the algorithm knows that people engage with that book. Right? It's not about always--although certainly if you want to donate to the movement for Black lives and everything I vehemently support you. I think people mistake that, like, activism, that anti-racism, that D&I is something separate from what they're already doing as opposed to a slight edit of the things they're doing. So that's how you overcome fatigue, and I'm totally fine if you as an ally--like, you just did that coaching conversation with someone who would not have had access to an executive before? Like, I'm chill if you pat yourself on the back for that. Go ahead. Like, I know, "ally cookies" or whatever, but if you want to self-high five or you want to tell another one of your friends who isn't marginalized from that group, like, "I did a good thing," and you want a high five from another white person, fine. Cool. If it keeps you motivated and it gets you to do the next 10 things over the next 10 and 100 years, then I'm fully supportive of that. So I guess that's where it is. Like, we fight diversity fatigue by doing things consistently that actually work. Zach: I feel like a large part of this work is massaging white discomfort or trying to figure out ways to, like, Jedi mind trick white folks into caring about Black and brown people. And, like, I hear what you're doing at Culture Amp. The link will be in the show notes, 'cause I just looked at it and it's fire. So it's worth, and I also shared it with a couple of mentors, but I'd like to get your reaction to what I just said and, like, if you agree with that, then, like, is that tenable in today's climate?Aubrey: That's such a good question. I was a little quiet because I was like, "Is it, like, 60% or 80% of the work?" Right? No, I think it absolutely is, and it's the reason that I choose to do this work, because I think something that people don't talk about enough--and I talk about in some communities that I'm building--us white-passing folks are the tactical weapons to solve this particular problem, right? Like, I don't just, like, code switch, although I do that too. I literally identity switch at work minute by minute because I have the unique ability to, like, feel both sides of the coin 'cause I've lived both sides of them, so that's actually a lot of the reason I do the work I do, because I know how much of this is, like, managing white discomfort, and frankly, my face partially manages white discomfort to have discussions about racism and white supremacy. So I think that's true. Now, your next question is really important. Is it tenable or sustainable? I have a complex answer to that. So philosophically my answer to you is no. My deeply practical, science lady answer is it's not an avoidable problem in the short term. So this is a weird theory I'm gonna give you, and it has to do with drug addiction, but I think it's relevant for anti-racism work. So here's a theory I've never spoken online before. So there's something really fascinating about drugs and how they work on the brain, which is that the dosage and the frequency that they hit the brain completely changes the brain's response to it. So, like, small amounts over time create resistance. Large amounts at once tend to cause addiction. I'm vastly oversimplifying, but just work with me. So I'll say people who experience racism--not people of color, but people who experience racism, we basically have been given doses of racial stress throughout our lives, so we now have resilience to it. I'm nto saying it's good. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm just saying it's sort of a descriptive fact of the world. So white people, we basically have to dose them with enough racial stress in the right ratios at the right time to get them to be able to have these conversations, because what the research is telling us is white fragility is actually, like, people's brains perceiving they're in danger when they're in absolutely no danger whatsoever. Like, that's neuroscience. So philosophically I'm like, "Yeah, it's not sustainable," but we have to think about ways to give people experience through racial stress, white people specifically, so that they're resilient and can have the conversations, and I think that's the process that's happening right now in a broader cultural sense is that white people--I mean, have you seen the New York Times Bestseller list? It looks like my bookshelf. [?] on one of my shelves called "What White America's Reading." So what I'm saying is I think we're in a moment where white people are being dosed with racial stress in a way that they never have been, and so I am saying that, like, we're still probably going to have another--I don't know, I don't want to put a timeline on it. That's a terrible statistician thing to do, but I do think it will change because more white people are educating themselves, and even, like, white people that are in my family that I've never seen talk about racial justice before are, like, texting me and asking me questions. So, like, I'm really hopeful. I know how the 17 million different ways this could go sideways, but I have to hold onto that hope because that's what motivates me to push so hard right now. So I think that there's a real chance that there's enough white people who are like, "Oh, I get some rules now, and I at least know to shut up and listen," that we could build a coalition that's big enough to actually create fundamental structural change. Like, I have to believe that's true because that's what I spend all of my time pushing for.Zach: Right. I mean, I struggle with the ways that this space plays with language. I don't know, like, to a certain extent, Aubrey, like, the language itself becomes like, this test and, like, just becomes very classist, and it becomes really exclusionary, because we're talking in these very, like, esoteric terms that kind of mean whatever, right, and we write long Medium posts about this versus that, but at that same time a lot of folks are still using equity and equality interchangeably. So we really don't understand--when I say we I mean, like, just the common person, not even a D&I expert but just, like, the common person. I do think a word though, when we talk about this space and we talk about achieving belonging at work is, like, redistributing organizational power. I don't often hear the word "power," like, really employed in conversations, particularly around Black engagement, brown people. I don't hear that word. Have you thought about that? Is that significant to you at all?Aubrey: I think I want to add another word in, 'cause I agree with you, right? Getting really esoteric about language, it excludes people who haven't had those discussions about those specific subtle differences. I talk about equity. I actually don't really use the word equality. I don't think about equality that much.Zach: I don't either, but people be throwing--I've seen it. I've seen it, like, some big brands have used the word equality. I'm like, "Why are we--"Aubrey: I'll just give my particular view, and I want to do this without, like, throwing shade, but for me I tend to see people use equality when they're familiar with a lot of the, like, deep social justice theories, because they're articulating the outcome, and equality is the outcome of the process of equity, and the process of equity, by literal definition, is about redistributing power and opportunity, at least in the way that I perceive it. I think the other term that we have to talk about or that I think about a lot, and I can't believe I work at a place where I have, like, advanced, deep conversations with executives about this, is [?] collective organizational justice. I think justice is helpful because there's--I just learned a new type of justice, which is, like, my favorite fact ever, but thinking about, like, what does procedural justice look like, right? Equitable design creates processes that create procedural justice. I think about testimonial justice. So how do I make sure that people's stories have the space to be told in the ways that they need to to respect human dignity and opportunity? And so I think redistributing organizational power is at the core of what I do, so really what I'm doing all day, whether I'm writing a corporate strategy or thinking about what hat I need to wear in a particular conversation, is I'm doing a power analysis of the situation. Like, a good example of this, and I'm gonna put this out there, when I think about power and systemic power, right, one of the most abusive things that exists that most D&I leaders aren't even talking about are forced arbitration agreements. You have just [?] or also class action rights. So by including that in your employment contract to all of the CEOs and leaders listening, what you are saying is "[BLEEP] you and your power. You have absolutely no recourse that is fair if we mess up and harm you," and I truly believe that that's true, because what you're doing is stripping that individual of the way that they might balance their power against the power of a corporation with backers, and that's even ignoring the racial power dynamics or the ableist power dynamics there. So I think we would be so much better served if we talked about power, but then the other important thing I want to bring in--and I realize it's your thing, but I'm gonna ask you a question, which is I don't think that people understand the difference between power with and power over, and it relates to [?] earlier where I almost laughed--not at you, but you said, like, "You're giving up power," and I almost laughed because I don't think by creating space for people I'm giving up power, because my definition of power is "power with," so I believe that when I move out of a particular space, I am gaining power because the collective is gaining power and I'm a part of that collective.Zach: But, see, in that though there's, like, this--I don't know. You have to have a different mindset and premise that you're operating from to even see that as power though, right? Because most people don't--it's a zero-sum game. There's also, like, a very capitalistic mindset to it too. So if you heavily prescribe to historically oppressive systems and you're not necessarily, like--you don't think in communal terms or frames, then you're not going to see it that way. I agree with you though that, like, the idea of power with and power over is--and it's funny, because I didn't know that's what you were going to say. I didn't know that that's what that meant in that context. I thought you meant, like, power with being like--I don't know, I interpreted it differently. I think about the fact that a lot of people don't consider the fact that, like, even if they aren't high in an organization, they still have power by way of their whiteness, and that's not a theoretical power. Like, it's a real power. As an example, let's pretend you and I work at Culture Amp and we are a part of the same team. We have the same job. In fact, I may be senior to you in the organization. The reality is, like, if you wanted to, you could just share a couple of points of feedback to other people around me and I could be fired. Not at Culture Amp, but you know what I mean. You have the societal--you have advantages to where if you say, "You know what? I just don't think Zach is really cutting it," or "I don't really think Zach is that bright," or "I don't think" whatever or "Zach makes me feel uncomfortable" or whatever the case is, right, and so what was a struggle for me is when we talk about power, yes, we're talking about, like, the white executives, or just executives period, like, people who are in positions of organizational authority, but also the people who are not in organizational authority who still can harm Black and brown people who should, on paper, be protected, even by the very pessimistic and harmful rules that that organization has created for its own leadership. Like, they still don't really even participate or benefit from those protections because of the color of their skin or because of a disability or whatever the case may be, you know what I mean?Aubrey: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, and I think that's actually something we don't teach people. I think it's, like, American culture in general is very aggressive. Like, a lot of our cultural values are about control, but we don't actually have a dialogue about it. So those of us on the bottom end of the distribution in any context tend to talk about it, but the people at the top don't, and so yeah, I think people--also because we're in this sort of capitalistic society. I say that as if I'm, like--capitalism is like traffic. I don't like it, but I have to be in it. I got that from Nicole Sanchez. I want to give her a shout-out. She's brilliant. I can only say that she's someone who has guided me and taught me, and I appreciate her wisdom, and I don't even have time to describe how much I think she's great, but I think that's it, that people don't understand power. And also I think there's this weird game in--I think it's everywhere, but, like, American culture lies about it, where the thing is people actually, like, crave power and status, but they have to lie about wanting it, and it comes from our whole lie about, like, "Classes don't exist in America," even though they obviously do. "We're not a classist system." Yeah, we are. I've been on every rung of it. Trust me, I know. At different points in my life.Zach: Right. Let's talk a little bit about--part of your bio I read included the concept of re-imagining systems, right? So I've had on a few guests, and many of them believe that this is a watershed moment for, quote-unquote, D&I, HR culture, like, that whole space. Do you think there's any radical re-imagining that needs to happen today or that really should have happened a while ago but is certainly, like, further mobilized by this moment?Aubrey: Absolutely. I mean, like, the thing is the phrase--it's been repeated to me, like, every week, like, "Never waste a good crisis." Well, what I mean is don't waste the attention on these problems, because attention is what can get you the solutions. So yeah, do I think it's a watershed? Gosh, I hope so. I hope that companies stop doing unconscious training and we have honest conversations about the fact that it was conscious design decisions in organizations that create intentional discrimination and exclusion. I've been saying that to everyone with a C-level title I can talk to. If you're like, "Unconscious bias," I'm like, "It was never unconscious bias. You were just too fragile to hear it. It was conscious failures of leadership."Zach: Listen... I'll never forget--this was some years ago--I was talking to a leader about... and it was literally on my way out, 'cause I left, and I made a risk log as I was leaving. I said, "These are just things you need to know about the project we was on and the people on your team. Here are things that would help you if you just considered the risks." Got on the phone. I had already resigned, so, like, it was, like, my last week, right? So then we're talking and she's like... one of the risk ops on there was--I literally made it so soft. I said "potential unconscious bias," and her response was "I've never had a situation where I've been unconsciously bias." And I said, "Well, by the very nature of the concept you wouldn't know if you had been unconsciously bias, 'cause it's unconscious." So it's wild when you think about, like, the multiple levels of grace and outs that white people provide themselves through diversity and inclusion work. It's just not to me about justice, not about equity, really it's not about Black and brown people at all, it's just about shoring up power and control while kind of, like, protecting yourselves from litigious risk, right? But it's not real.Aubrey: You know what, Zach? You just said the word "risk," and I want to one, yes, +1,000 you, and I want to talk about the way that risk can be re-imagined, and it's a thing I've been saying to lawyers and executives, not just at Culture Amp. Like I said, literally to anyone who will listen, because I figure I have my, like, Hamilton, my [?] energy about this, like, how much [?] can we get in this moment? Which is that we can decide that risk means the company losing business because we have to fire an executive who's an abusive [BLEEP]. Like, violations of human dignity are a risk we cannot bear, and we simply choose, when we identify abusers, to remove them out of our organizations. Like, that's a choice that people can make about the definition of risk. And frankly, even if you're talking in capitalistic terms, if you think about how much companies spend on, like, external legal firms when they get sued for discrimation, it is so much cheaper to fire an executive and hire a new one. Or anyone in the organization, right? If they're not an executive they're even less financially, you know, sort of creating return for the business. So again I go back to this idea of re-imagining. Let's take the words and the concepts and just ask the basic question - "Do we have to do it this way? Is there a better way?" A company could say, "We value people being treated well because we know that treating you well equals better cognition, which equals more innovation, which in this economy, in our business, equals more dollars and revenue." We can choose to act as if that is true, and that choice and that action is what builds the world in which it is true. So I'm saying this, like, I live in an industry where everyone's like, "We're changing the world." I'm like, "You're shooting a rocket into space. Someone did that already." Not to diminish that it's an incredible feat of engineering to get a rocket into space. It's incredible, but it's actually less incredible than being like, "Maybe we should treat our employees like full humans who are deserving of dignity." Like, that doesn't seem that bananas to me.Zach: Well, it doesn't though because you're rejecting white supremacy and patriarchy, like, full-stop.Aubrey: Because it's lame and it diminishes--[?] I could drive, like, what, a Lamborghini because I look white? Like, my soul is not better off. Other beings aren't better off. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but white supremacy diminishes everyone, even those of us who benefit from it. Obviously those of us who benefit should do more work full-stop.Zach: Right. I feel you. I also think it's wack, but that's the reason. So what about this time right now scares you, Aubrey, mathpath, white-presenting woman, complex background. Like, is there anything right now that you feel more in the spotlight or more pressured?Aubrey: The thing that I'm, like, deeply afraid of in this moment, to be specific, is I know what the United States does to people who don't identify as white in history, and I'm afraid that white America won't take the signals that we're deep down the road to genocide seriously enough until we all start dying in higher numbers. That is actually what I'm afraid of, that white people don't think it's urgent enough to burn [BLEEP] down over, because the fact is, like, there are children in cages. This has been happening forever. We have police forces gunning down innocent civilians of all colors, although we know some communities experience that disproportionately. So what scares me? People wanting to lull themselves into a sense of security because they want the world to be better than it is.Zach: Yeah, it's scary. I think about where we are right now and just the death count because of COVID-19, and I think the fact that "defund the police" is still becoming such a--people are still pushing back so hard. I say, "Y'all, the data's right here. They're not solving crime. They're bleeding communities dry because the budgets are way too hard. We are underserved in these other service areas." And yet that's still, like, a radical, crazy idea. We're still pushing back against, like, the idea of reparations. Folks are still sending kids to school, right now, in the middle of a pandemic. Like you said, kids in cages. You're right. It's scary because--I don't know. There's a certain level of awareness that's been really cool to see. Kind of weird, to be frank. As a Black person it's kind of strange. But at the same time I'm looking everything and I'm just like, "Yo, this is--" Just talking about the pandemic alone, like, we haven't even hit the second wave, and so it's just like, "What are we doing?" So I hear you, that's a fear of mine too.Aubrey: That was the honest answer. It wasn't an upper, but [?] all of these things are under people's control, to pay attention, to advocate [?], and that's what I was going to link it to. Like, if that's not the world you want to see, refuse to live in it.Zach: Right, no, 100%. Okay, so let's wrap it up on this one. If you had to give three things executive leaders should be keeping in mind when it comes to engaging and retaining Black talent specifically, and in general a more socially conscious workforce--you think about Gen Z--like, what would those three things be?Aubrey: #1: You need to go to therapy to deal with your own self-esteem, control and power issues. They will absolutely come out in the workplace. #2: You must educate youreslf, and the Google machine is an incredible resource.Zach: And it's free.Aubrey: Free! There are so many people from Gen Z and the Black community that have put their thoughts and life experiences online you do not have to go bother someone who works with you. #3: What you value is not what they value, and they are coming to power. You need to learn how to gracefully evolve with the world. Those would be my most heartfelt pieces of advice to make what is an inevitable transition something that you can participate in and bring into the world as opposed to something you can fight and that will be painful.Zach: That's something that just kind of happens to you, 'cause it's going to happen, right?Aubrey: I mean, like, [?] is destiny. We know where this is going, so you can either be a part of that change and come into that new world or you can kick and scream, but it's coming, and it can either be fun or not fun, and that's really up to you.Zach: I mean, first of all, this has been fire. We haven't done sound effects in a while, but I still have them. Sound Man gonna put 'em in right here. And a Flex bomb too. There you go. Okay. So this has been incredible. You know what? I'm calling it right here. Aubrey Blanche, you are a friend of the show. Culture Amp, y'all are welcome here any time. This is not an ad. Culture Amp, what's up?Aubrey: Thank you for creating this space. I'm really grateful for this space to get to unpack these things. I guess my hope is other folks who have some life stories similar to mine get some wisdom and inspiration out of it so that they can do something that makes the world more incredible. So thank you so much for creating this space. I'm really grateful.Zach: Look, I appreciate you. This is great. Y'all, this has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. You know what we do. We have these conversations every single Tuesday, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips, and on Saturdays we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger. So we have, like, a whole network really on one platform. You just have to check in when you check in, okay? But look, that's been us. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up. I'm not gonna go through all the domains. We got all of 'em except for livingcorporate.com. We have all the other ones, so just type us in and you'll see us over there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Aubrey Blanche, leader, mover, shaker. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Learn more about KidfreshSupport the show and even get on monthly mentorship calls with Fabian. Join here.Full Transcript:F Geyrhalter:Welcome to the show, Matt.M Cohen:Thank you. Nice to meet you.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. So in your bio it states, "As someone who was interested in how brands connect with consumers, Matt was looking to develop a concept that would really connect to people's lives and be meaningful." Now, this statement alone got me so excited to have you on the show. You actually went from being a management consultant at Accenture to a COO at a consulting practice that got sold to Omnicom, which those in the industry know, that's the big one, and now you're hiding veggies in frozen meals for kids with your brand Kidfresh. Tell us a bit how and why you started this brand.M Cohen:Well, I'm still wondering every day. I don't know. I had a career, everything was fine, and then one morning I woke up and I'm like, "What kind of bad food..." excuse my French "... kids are being fed here in the US?" Basically what happened to put it simply is, I became a parent. I became a father. And as such, I started to experience what kids eat in this country, and I was absolutely horrified. So coming from France, I could not understand and even accept that kids were fed with such junk food. That's how it started.F Geyrhalter:And as far as I understand, Kidfresh started as a retail store in New York City, serving freshly prepared wholesome meals for kids, right?M Cohen:That's right. Our initial idea was to create a retail concept, a chain, a little bit like a Starbucks for kids, but with freshly prepared foods and other grocery items for kids, all natural and organic. That was the initial idea, so we created a store in Manhattan on the Upper East Side, initially.F Geyrhalter:And what happened? What happened to the store versus going with frozen food?M Cohen:So what happened basically is that... First of all, the store really established the brand, and it was really great because when I started the business with my partner I was being bombarded by requests for interviews from all over the world because the concept had really resonated everywhere. So, I mean, literally, I was on the phone doing interviews with the Radio Tokyo, and then being interviewed with Canadian newspapers and then Middle Eastern radio, these type of things. I was like, okay, well, maybe that's it. Maybe I made it in America, but more importantly what happened also from a business standpoint is that this attracted a lot of other retailers and other brands that were always coming to the store and exploring what we were doing, right? Essentially the most important one for us initially was Whole Foods.M Cohen:They came to the store, we had a great conversation, they were like, "Okay, hey, why don't we bring your products into our stores?"F Geyrhalter:Interesting.M Cohen:... and, "sure." And so we started doing that in New York City first. First in one store, then in all the stores in New York City, and then we had other states that were interested in carrying our line, and so we quickly realized that the opportunity was actually outside of the store much more than with the store, and that we would have a much greater impact and a much faster impact by going wholesale versus than going retail, one store at a time, brick and mortar and all that, all the capital expenses and resources that it required. Demand came from other retailers and we're like, "Okay, let's flip the switch and go wholesale."F Geyrhalter:And did Kidfresh... was that the brand name for the store that transitioned over to frozen?M Cohen:Yes, absolutely.F Geyrhalter:That's amazing.M Cohen:We kept the same... Yeah. Yeah.F Geyrhalter:And I have the feeling that given your very different background, the management consulting life, it must have shaped your first year running Kidfresh.M Cohen:Oh yeah. I mean, I thought everything happened on PowerPoint and Excel when I came in. [inaudible 00:04:52] consulting and then I realized that real life is somewhat different. So it was a big learning for me, for sure. But what did help me was to at least have some sort of framework of processes and organization and structure that needed to be put in place for any business. Right?F Geyrhalter:Right.M Cohen:... Rules and responsibilities, accountabilities, who reports to whom, systems, structures. So that really gave me a framework that I still carry with me today as I continue to grow the business.F Geyrhalter:And on top of that, it sounds like that your background always flirted with branding, right? I mean, you were always just a degree separated from branding, from marketing, and I'm sure that that influenced you too in finally launching your own brand.M Cohen:Oh, absolutely. I mean, particularly when the company that I worked with before was sold into Omnicom, I was completely immersed with other agencies, and being on the account side, managing accounts, and really looking at it from the branding and communication side of things. So, that brought me even more, a sense of what can make a brand succeed, basically.F Geyrhalter:And coming from that background and working with agencies and being surrounded by agencies, did you invest in branding immediately? When you started the first retail store, did you actually fully invest in, let's get this set up the right way? Or was that something that came a little bit later and you were winging it more in the beginning?M Cohen:It's the former. We really started with branding. We really started with finding the right name, first and foremost, and we did some surveys and we did some analysis and so on and so forth to really find a name that we felt resonated. Right? When you think about Kidfresh, it seems obvious, but it didn't exist. And so we explored lots of different names, and then we hired a branding agency from the get-go to really develop our brand positioning, our identity, and all our entire brand book from logo to colors to fonts and all the other attributes that make a brand as such.F Geyrhalter:That's music to my ears. How do you think that impacted you? How do you think it helped you versus taking it slow and bootstrapping the branding aspect?M Cohen:I think it really helped us get immediate credibility. We looked bigger than we were, and as such we conveyed more credibility and also more trust because it's a business where you provide foods to children, and it was important that we established trust with parents from day one. And so we went very much into branding with a sense of, this is a way for us to get our name and our idea out there in a way that will engage the consumers in a favorable way.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. Absolutely. What does branding mean to you now that you've been with Kidfresh for a while and given your background, what does that term branding mean to you? Because it's such a misunderstood term. People just think it's a logo, but it's so much more, what does it mean to you?M Cohen:It is several things. It is first of all, an identity, and it's as much an identity for the consumers than it is also for yourself, your employees, your teams, your third party partners, right? You have a name, you have a look and feel, you stand for something. Right? So, that's very important. And then secondly, I think it's also an emotional connection with our consumers, right? We mean something, our name means something. When you buy a product Kidfresh, you know that's not going to be junk food, that it sounds and feels good for you. And that's what we stand for. Right? So it's not a lie. It's actually to the contrary, it's very much all promise. So, an identity and an emotional connection with a promise behind it. That's what branding stands for.F Geyrhalter:Very well put. One comes to think about like, when you started this brand of creating food, in the beginning, regular food and then frozen food once you went past retail into the actual retail stores, not your own store, how do you create food? Someone who doesn't have that background, did you have a co-founder that came from the food background?M Cohen:Yes.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Okay.M Cohen:Yeah. My co-founder had experience at Dannon for many years...F Geyrhalter:Perfect.M Cohen:... [inaudible 00:10:22] surrounded ourselves with experts. We started with a pediatric nutritionist from NYU. We visited childhood obesity pediatric units in hospitals in the Tri-state area in New York just to understand what was going on. We had retail experts. So I think building a team of experts that fill the gaps is also critical. Going back, maybe to your point about management consulting, is really creating an advisory board, helped us a lot initially.F Geyrhalter:That is really, really good to hear, and that's not always the case with today's startups. I absolutely, hundred percent agree with that. I surround myself with experts all the time, because that's why they're experts. And just a couple of minutes with an expert can save us hours and weeks of time, sometimes. So very much [crosstalk 00:11:17]. You're also very data driven. It sounds like you get a lot of input, you do a lot of questionnaires, you get a lot of answers. Was there ever a moment where you got a lot of ideas back and you get a lot of customer data and you felt like, "You know what, thank you for that, but I'm actually going to go a totally different way with this." May it be a certain product launch. Even at the beginning of Kidfresh, was there ever a time where you did a crazy brand move just based on your gut instinct, where you felt, "You know what, this is my brand, this is my baby. I want to go that route even though everyone says go to the other direction."M Cohen:So, it's very interesting because we've been bombarded with ideas and opportunities to go in so many different directions, which in a sense is a good thing because it shows the brand resonates and has legs beyond what we're doing. But one key area where we were really solicited very much by consumers and also retailers to go into snacks, dry snacks, right? So that we had more portability and the Kidfresh brand name could extend in portable, nutritious snacks for kids. And we started to play with it quite frankly, but then we realized that it would be so big and distract us so much from our core, right? Our core being food like meals, cooked meals, that even though there was a legitimate demand and certainly a potential in the business, if we were to go that route, it would be too risky for the overall company as a whole. And so [inaudible 00:13:09] said, "No, not for now, but it's certainly in the back of our mind, but not for now."F Geyrhalter:And I think it all comes back to your positioning and to your purpose, right? Because you can always point back to that and say, well, our purpose is not to have snacks, but our purpose is actually to have real meals that have the hidden veggies [crosstalk 00:13:28] Right. Exactly. So, that's one of those big advantages to have that purpose nailed down early on, and it's kind of like your guiding light that you can always use for a brand and you don't get sidetracked to saying yes to all these amazing opportunities, which they are all amazing opportunities. Right? So on the flip side, was there ever anything that you did with your brand, may it have been a campaign or may it have been a new launch or a change of colors or logos or anything where you felt like, "Oh, that totally went off the rails."M Cohen:I would say... You know what, going back to snacks and handheld products, when we were exploring the snack idea we were like, well, maybe there are some snacks that you can do in frozen. Right? And we tried that, we did some frozen burritos and things like that, but realized that this was too much of a departure for the consumers in terms of their habits and what they knew, and it didn't work out as we had planned. Yeah. That's a line of products that we felt, "Hey, let's try to do some frozen snacks." but were not... It's not what we expected.F Geyrhalter:And it's just a couple of degrees away from what you usually do and it already didn't resonate. Right? It's so interesting how consumers are so... Your brand means something so specific to them, and even if you just go a little bit the other way, it's already too much for them. To me, that's fascinating.M Cohen:It is. But it speaks also to the relationship and the connection we have with the consumers, and that's a great asset for us really. It's a unique element of our business, and we have the highest loyalty in the category. So, our consumers want us and want us to stay who we are.F Geyrhalter:Besides obvious sales, but how do you feel that loyalty? Do you feel it on social media or do people write to you? What are some of those messages you get as a brand that makes you feel like, "You know what, people really have our back. They absolutely love us."M Cohen:Well, we have actual data. We have access to data that shows that a consumer that did not buy Kidfresh before, and that tries it once, will repurchase it over, and over, and over again. We have the data, it's very clear. We have the highest loyalty rate in the industry, over 60%. And then that translates also into messages and things that are more sort of content, if you will. People share stories or they talk to their friends or they refer the brand, but the data is the data.F Geyrhalter:Oh, absolutely. Yeah.M Cohen:It's very clear.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. So you started your retail store, you got all of this amazing press and suddenly Whole Foods came knocking. Was that the moment where you felt like, "You know what, we have something here." Or was there another big breakthrough moment for the brand where you were in a certain amount of stores, or did something happen where you felt like there was one day where Matt sat back with his glass of Bordeaux and said, "You know what, this is it. We have a brand." ?M Cohen:Well, I mean, certainly the initial conversation with Whole Foods, for sure. But then we started to branch out of the store in different ways. For instance, we had a little refrigerated kiosks to JFK airport at the JetBlue and American Airline terminal [crosstalk 00:17:25] where we were [inaudible 00:17:26] travel lunchboxes for kids. And that was sort of branching out of the store in the first way. Then we had the Whole Foods [inaudible 00:17:40], that was the second thing. And then we were also doing a lot of catering, but branded catering for the FAO Schwarz store in New York [crosstalk 00:17:49], Build-A-Bear store in New York. We were their catering operation.M Cohen:So, at the end of the day, there's a point where you do so much more business outside of the store than in the store that really you understand that that's where you need to go, right?F Geyrhalter:Yeah. Yeah.M Cohen:The store being such an operational sort of weight, if you will, to carry every day, at some point you cannot do both. You'll have to make a decision. Am I a wholesale operation or am I a retail business? Right? And I clearly remember that day. It was like one of these days that is like a total nightmare, you cannot even see the light, and you're like, "Okay, we just cannot do this anymore. We have to pick and decide who we are."F Geyrhalter:Yeah. So instead of this being a celebratory moment, it was actually a moment of anxiety because you had too much going on and too many opportunities, and you just had to create some clarity?M Cohen:In a way. In a way. But after that anxiety came also a relief.F Geyrhalter:Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. If you would look at the Kidfresh brand today, and if you would look at the positioning of the brand, of the values of the brand, of what you really stand for as a brand, you would put this down into one word, I call it your brand DNA. If you would be able to describe Kidfresh in one or two words, what would it be?M Cohen:Two words. You want two words, I'll give you two words. Kid and fresh.F Geyrhalter:That took some pondering.M Cohen:No, but really, I mean, it's really about kids' food. So it's really about children and making sure that they have foods that they like, but they also bring nutrition and taste and value. Right? And then fresh is really the freshness of our product, our ingredients. It's real chicken, it's real tomatoes. Everything is real and fresh. So yeah, kid and fresh.F Geyrhalter:Which I think is amazing after all those years, right? That it goes back right to that name, and that's why it's so crucial to get the name right in the beginning. Right? I mean, that is just so important.M Cohen:So crucial. Absolutely.F Geyrhalter:And something that was in the back of my mind entire time we were talking, and I think now is a good time to ask, obviously, what is so great about Kidfresh is that you're basically tricking these kids of eating mozzarella sticks with a dipping sauce but in reality, there's actually cauliflower in them as well. Right? You hide these vegetables in a smart way, so that kids actually eat healthy, but they feel like it's still fun, and it's still their kind of food. What happens at the time when the kids turn... I don't know, what age do they turn when they suddenly start realizing that they've been fooled all along?F Geyrhalter:And what happens? Is it a revolution?M Cohen:No, but we actually do not recommend to fool the kids. Right? We're sneaking vegetables, yes, but we want vegetables to be part of the conversation as opposed to not. So just to be able to say, "Hey, you like this chicken nugget? Well, hey, there's a little cauliflower that's mixed in. Let's have another one."F Geyrhalter:Yeah, yeah.M Cohen:We want to be honest and transparent. So, my hope is that when kids find out and realize that there's cauliflower or chickpea or butternut squash blended in the product, that they don't see it as a betrayal, but like as a [inaudible 00:22:05] why not actually, as an enhancement.F Geyrhalter:Right, right. And I mean, at that point, you already got them so hooked that they're fine with it anyways.M Cohen:Yeah, it's already too late. It's already too late.F Geyrhalter:It's too late. It's too late.M Cohen:They're going to try another chicken nugget and then they're going to come back to ours. F Geyrhalter:That's right. That's right. That's hilarious. Obviously you've made it as a founder of a very successful startup that's very purposeful. A lot of young founders are looking up to people like you who have achieved what you have achieved. Is there any brand advice that you want to give to kind of finish off our interview, just something that you've learned over the years where you would advise other founders as it relates to your brand, or even just regular entrepreneurial business advice where you say, "Look, here's something that I learned that I think I want to share with other entrepreneurs."?M Cohen:I would say, be patient and determined. It's a lot about being tenacious, fighting every day and believing into your product, into your brand, into your team and resources, being really steadfast into what you're doing. That would be my advice. Sometimes, slow and steady wins the race. We all want to go fast and be the next big thing overnight, well, in most cases it takes time, and that's okay.F Geyrhalter:I like that. I like that. Yeah, absolutely. So listeners who want to turn their kids into Kidfresh fanatics, where can they go? Where can they find your frozen treats?M Cohen:In most grocery stores throughout the nation from Vons in Southern California where you are to Walmart, Target, all the Kroger banners, Publix, Whole Foods, most retailers for the nation.F Geyrhalter:Can they order online too? Or are you in all retailers [crosstalk 00:24:25].M Cohen:Yes.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Okay.M Cohen:No, they can make an order at kidfresh.com or go to Amazon as well.F Geyrhalter:Perfect Matt. Well, listen, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. This was really educational and appreciate all your insights.M Cohen:Thank you Fabian and take care.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely, you too.

Shawnna Sumaoang: Hi, and welcome to the Sales Enablement PRO podcast. I am Shawnna Sumaoang. Sales enablement is a constantly evolving space and we’re here to help professionals stay up to date on the latest trends and best practices so that they can be more effective in their jobs. Today I’m excited to have a returning guest speaker join us, Chris Kingman, the director of international enablement for TransUnion. Chris, I would love for you to introduce yourself, your role, and your organization to our audience. Chris Kingman: Sure. So as Shawnna said, my name’s Chris Kingman. The director of international enablement at TransUnion. My role is where I hold responsibility and helping drive and support all of the typical enablement activities or functions that we see that help drive operational strategic growth goals aligned to revenue achievement. It’s just a really fancy way to say I try to make sure that our sellers have all the tools, technology, knowledge, skills, and abilities they need to be successful across the globe. SS: Well, Chris, I’m glad that you’re back to join us today. Now, today, I want to focus a little bit about the role of sales enablement. I’d love to hear from you in your opinion, what skills and expertise are needed to excel in sales enablement role? CK: Sure. So a really simple one I think is often overlooked is listening skills. And that’s just, you actually have to hear what your quote-unquote customer really needs. Right? It’s no different than what we’re really trying to prepare our sellers with. You have to have a good attention to detail and talking to your stakeholders internally, and you know, a skill listening isn’t necessarily a skill so you have to develop it into active listening and that’s really just, you know, understanding what people say and retaining that information. I also think the ability to look at a situation or a challenge from both a microscopic lens and a macroscopic lens is key. And when I say that a lot of the times some of the thought leaders will say, you know, systems thinking is the way to sort of be successful in enablement. I really just think having the ability to sort of look ahead, several steps are key and you have to have sort of an understanding of your business, but also a curiosity to go from very minute details and very tactical items, very, you know, point and click type direction, all the way to large scale or enterprise-wide, organization-wide impacts of what you’re doing and the impacts of what decisions you’re making. I think that is a skill that it takes a lot of time to develop and refine but it will aid enablers, you know, to really go from sort of a single faceted role or somebody that only is responsible for one discipline, one function to a leader to really, you know, a strategic position within your organization is how can I help drive the strategy, how can I direct the business and support the decisions the business makes? That’s one of the key ways to do it is, is having that ability to, you know, pop in and out if you will, of, you know, small scale action, small scale impacts and think broader and broader and broader as broad as you need to go. I think one of the final things, and I don’t necessarily know if it’s a skill, maybe it goes under expertise is, you should always kind of keep one foot on the front line. I never tried to be too far away from my sellers or my sales leaders. They never, never out of touch, never out of reach if they have a challenge, a question, and it’s just a great way to always understand what they’re really dealing with. On a long enough timeline if you’re pursuing several very strategic things that may take 18 months, three years to implement, you may forget, you know, while you’re doing things, you may forget what’s actually happening in the real world where your sellers are operating so I think even just having an open dialogue with your people is great. I try to position myself as a resource to them and always be available or always be open to feedback, information, or really, you know, complaints, even complaints. One of the areas that you can really get a lot of the best insights as to what’s happening in that space then I think always keeping, even in the back of your head, it’s just, you know, what’s going on with my sellers is another key sort of area of expertise that will help, enablement practitioners. SS: Absolutely. Now for practitioners that may be newer to the role and the profession, what advice do you have for them about how to develop some of these critical skills and knowledge that you’ve been talking about? CK: Sure. So, becoming a good listener takes practice. It actually takes practice. The great thing is it’s not a hard exercise to complete. Just be very conscious that when someone is explaining something to you, let them talk and let them explain whatever it is that they’re talking about fully in as much detail as they can provide you and then try to repeat it back, as you understand, in a real simple way is so here’s what I heard you say. And then tell them what you believe they said and see how close it is to what they say. That is, you know, not necessarily an exercise, it’s something I would recommend you do every time someone gives you some piece of information that’s important, but it really helps you hone in on well, what, what are you really saying? A lot of the meat can be lost in somebody just trying to get a point across and they’re, you know, maybe they’re over just dating or they’re talking a lot or they’re just terrible at stories. It helps you focus and get to the point without being a little blunt and saying, “well get to the point.” So I think that’s a really easy way to go about it certainly makes you a better listener. Now, when we talk about, from the macro to the micro and having that ability to go back and forth, one thing, I’ve always challenged the people whenever we are on teams to do was, think about whatever it is you’re building or problem you’re trying to solve and just continually to ask yourself, okay, and then what? Okay and then what? Okay and then what? I do this when I designed programs that, you know, I have to roll out globally or, or I’m reviewing things with my team, you know, how can this go wrong? You just keep asking that question. Okay. Then what? Okay. Then what, and if you can’t answer it, whether you’re saying scaling something up or whether you’re troubleshooting, that’s an area that you’re going to want to spend a little bit more time developing or focusing on. Right. And I think success in enablement is a mix of somebody that can have that level of detail, you know, that translates into frontline activity of, of do this, do that as well as that macro view of, you know, I need to holistically change how we do something and here at a high level is the steps that we need to take at a high level of tiers. Here’s the potential pitfalls, and at a very tactical level here are the breakdowns of what’s going to happen here is, you know, where things can go wrong. And being that intentional with that exercise to say, okay, and what as ridiculous as it sounds as simple as it sounds, it does force you to think through all possibilities of ways things can fail. I think that can really tie back to you just a stronger approach to enablement. SS: Absolutely. Now sales enablement practitioners spend a good portion of their career helping reps with their own professional development. But what do you see as the benefits of professional development for sales enablement practitioners themselves? CK: So, there’s, there’s a huge benefit agnostic of being an enablement practitioner. Right. And, everyone should do it. Now I’ll use that blanket statement. For our colleagues in enablement this is a great time to really figure out where you want to go so there is no right path right now and enablement, we all want to be more strategic. Some of us have that C-level ambition and that’s great, but there’s nothing wrong to say that you can’t just be an excellent enabler in a function or a specific discipline. I know sales trainers that that’s all they want to do with sales trade, and they do it exceptionally well because they love doing it. For those looking from those lenses, I would say, first, really focused on what you want to do, figure out what you want to do, or an idea of what you want to do and learn as much as you can about that particular discipline. So, if you want to master the CRM, right? And we’ll just use Salesforce as an example. There is probably an endless supply of content and training and material that will teach you how to be as good as that platform, as informed as possible and how to leverage it to your business’s benefit. You could spend, there’s a recruiting agency just for Salesforce people. That’s how in-depth this option or a route could be. It’s the same thing for training. I would say from a professional development standpoint, seek out the certifications, seek out the labels, the awards, the accolades that say you’ve mastered this and then do that and then move to something else. If your content or you think there’s time to expand, for those that want to be enablement leaders, I think it’s a huge portion of your career progression is to seek out professional development, you know. If that’s the route you want to go is to be a leader of enablement function, then I think leadership and managers development is really where you want to focus your time. And if you are an established leader, if you’ve been doing enablement for a period of time or went from ops and transitioned over, or you, you know, you run a team, I think you should pursue things a little bit more on the business development side. Similar, like an MBA, I wouldn’t necessarily push an MBA, but something of that factor, maybe, personal certifications or academic certifications, like, Harvard and Yale though, they do the summer courses about analytics or running a PNL or anything like that, that’ll benefit you. Or if you want to go the complete opposite way, and you want to position yourself as a, you know, a thought leader or a brand even. Seeking out ways to make your writing better if that’s your medium, or professional speaking training. So, I can personally attest to the value of that. I’ve done that before, you know, leaps and bounds improvements in how I speak in front of audiences or I address executives and things like that. I think all of those are, absolutely necessary for your career advancement. SS: Well that’s a great segue. I’d actually love to hear from you, what are some other actions you’ve taken to enhance your own professional development and how has that impacted your growth trajectory? CK: Sure. So, in no particular order, I think that I spent a lot of time sort of trying to master specific disciplines. I started in training even all the way back to my first job when I was 15 scooping ice cream. I immediately learned how to do it and I was training everybody else how to do it. And then every job I’ve ever held has had a training element to it, or I’ve just been tasked with the training piece of it. So, in the corporate environment or the startup to a corporate environment, I largely handled training. And then as I’ve sort of gotten better or I’ve mastered things, I’ve taken on additional responsibilities on the side and, if you could picture sort of shifting things across your desk, as the training is getting it has a life of its own if you will, as it’s demonstrated its value, as it’s worked into literally the culture of the organization, that’s about the time that you can have somebody take it over for you and only build upon what you have and you take somebody who is, you know, maybe a dedicated sales trainer, somebody that has a full passion for it to make what you have even better to demonstrate and expand upon the value as you transitioned into, you know, something else. I think, you know, as, as I’ve progressed and worked on sort of getting all of the disciplines down, then I transitioned over to technology and just try to educate myself as much as possible on sales stack cause that was, you know, that was all we were talking about probably like two or three years ago with sales stack and the right sales stack and you had to have this stack and that stack. So I just educated myself as much as possible, you know, trying to master how to leverage your CRM, how to tune it for a positive seller experience and make sure that our sellers were using not even using the tool, but the tool was calibrated to make them more successful. And then, as I sort of climbed the ladder, I would say I have focused more on developing my presence among executives working with, you know, senior-level executive, C-level executives, along with handling, coordinating larger and larger initiatives, right? Large scale technology platform rollouts across the globe or, large scale meetings in which you have to have an agenda and a program and a theme that fits and is applicable to as many people as possible. And so, sort of taking on larger and larger responsibilities, taking on larger and larger roles, has been kind of how I’ve been exposing myself and trying to make myself better and better and better. And then on top of that, seeking additional training in any format, really, whether it be, you know, professional speaking training or. I’m working on my writing or what I find most valuable is just sort of the conversations with my peers and colleagues about how, how would you address this situation or how would you do this, or, you know, active in sales enablement society. It’s certainly talking to fellow practitioners who are in similar roles and seeing how they do it and learning about the organizations that have been all the ways that I’ve found beneficial in my development. SS: Fantastic. Now you talked a little bit about how your own role has evolved, but as the sales enablement profession continues to evolve, where do you see there being opportunities for practitioners to maybe pursue slightly more specialized roles? CK: So not that we’re not all sick of talking about it, but the immediate, you know, the benefit is helping people adapt to this virtual environment, right? It’s not comfortable for everybody. I think that’s a fair way to put it. Some people are, are just very off-put by all of the technology, all of the digital aspects of it, the distractions, right? All of those things, they come into play. If you have a typical enterprise-level representative their majority interactions were scheduling a meeting, getting ready for the meeting, and then you’re in a room with executives. No one’s coming in and out. There are no screaming kids. No one’s doing the dishes. All of those things that are now normal, they won’t be normal forever, but helping people deal with that I think is the absolute immediate need. It’s not hard, every company, every vendor, everybody’s putting out a fact sheet or a one-pager or a webinar about how to deal with this. You can certainly pull all of that in, make your own flavor, and at the bare minimum enable your sellers. Longer-term, I think that sound strategies to pick a discipline or a focus and just immerse yourself in it. And you know, this has kind of been my strategy. I want to caveat and say, I don’t know if this is the right strategy, but this is what’s worked for me. Both in an office environment where I was there all day, you know, the nine to five schedule, and then in my role now internationally where it’s hours fluctuate, you know, who I’m speaking with and what their challenges are all different based on their region. But now is the time to get exposed to the functions that fall under the enablement umbrella or maybe the disciplines. Right. So maybe call QA is big because you have a very well adapted organization that has, you know, digital calling or dialers and maybe analyzing calls or something that you’re interested in because that’s very impactful. I think it can be overlooked sometimes how much you can learn from listening to an interaction and then the coaching. Now’s the time to learn about it and see how you can take maybe what you have and make something out of it. Maybe it’s as simple as educating your sales managers, incorporating a coaching session, creating a scorecard. There’s no limit on what you can do. I would say pick an area of interest, educate yourself, and then figure out how to derive value for your business out of that. You can master your CRM, you can master sales training. I think you just have to identify what’s of interest to you and what can fit within your bandwidth. While you may have a primary focus, let’s say you are the sales trainer for an organization, identify areas that your business could be better, where you could bring value at no cost to the business. The only thing that’s going to cost is your sweat equity. You have to put in the work. If anybody works at a startup or has worked at a startup, you’re familiar with the idea that it’s probably not money to do a lot of things. So, it’s really just the ingenuity, the time the patience and the knowledge of the people that really put these things together. But if you can prove value, they’ll find the money and if it brings in money even more inclined to invest in it. I think now is the time to ask those questions and ask yourself certainly challenged your own knowledge of how your business works. But go to your frontline, go to your sales leaders and say, “where do you need help? Where can the business improve? What processes are broken? What don’t you like?” You know what, my two favorite questions and I think you were there when I talked about it is, what sucks? And how do we fix it? It doesn’t have to be a big consulting engagement. You can really just ask the questions of where this business can be better. And then as an enabler, take that back and figure out what you can do about it. Chances are, there is something that you can do. You will find an avenue, you will find something of interest at the bare minimum if you don’t abandon the pursuit, you will solve a problem. And if you solve that problem, you’re inherently providing a value or you’re preventing waste or something to that degree that I think on a long enough timeline as a practitioner you get a bunch of wins like that under your belt, it’s going to, you know, it’s going to turn heads, it’s going to turn a lot of attention to what you’re doing as a, as a practitioner. And it’s ultimately going to be now, you’re the one people are going to come to with the problems versus you right now, using the opportunity to sort of go find it. SS: I think that’s fantastic advice, Chris. Now in closing my last question for you, what are some steps that you would recommend practitioners take in order to advance their careers? CK: So, you know, if you’re young, you’re not tied down to anything. I am a big advocate for, go move somewhere where a job sounds great. And really the job exposes you to things. If you don’t have that ability, maybe you have children, your parents, whatever, maybe the startup life isn’t for you. That’s fine. Just look for opportunities to provide value. The great thing about enablement to me is nothing’s off the table per se. Like if you can, you can fix a process, if you can align people, if you can get people talking, if you can do anything to make achievement or, you know, value capture of revenue happen, it’s under, it’s under your umbrella, you can at the bare minimum, look into it. And if you’re curious, if you’re really just curious, you can find a way to provide value. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been doing sales ops for 30 years, or you are fresh out of college and you’re an enablement person, maybe you’re running content management and someone has a platform. It doesn’t mean that you can’t look at other areas of the business within the sales umbrella. Don’t go sniff around finance just yet. It doesn’t mean that you can’t look at other aspects and just ask the question, how can this be improved? And you don’t even have to have the answer. You just have to ask the questions. It’s been my experience that all of the challenges that I’ve gone and identified my frontline sellers and managers have told me about them, you know, the majority of them and they’re, they’ve probably pointed me in the right direction, either A) what they want to see or B) all you have to do is this and the problem goes away. The people that live it and breathe it every single day are going to be, you know, they’re your customers. But more importantly, if you do listen to them, they’re going to be your biggest advocates when you do solve those problems. And as somebody who wants to further their career then, you know, the easiest thing to put you in that position to grow, I would say, is to add value. And it’s really the guarantee to advancement. If you continually add value, there’s really few reasons or few limitations why you can’t progress or you can’t, you know, whether it’s a, you climb higher or your organization, your team gets wider. There are few things that’ll get in the way as long as you continue to add value. SS: Absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for joining us again. I always enjoy our conversation and CK: Always a pleasure. SS: To our audience, thanks for listening. For more insights, tips, and expertise from sales enablement leaders, visit salesenablement.pro. If there’s something you want to share or a topic, you’d like to learn more about, please let us know. We’d love to hear from you.

Tahnee is back with another soulful Women's Series episode on the podcast today. Clancy Allen joins us to unpack and explore the depth and nuance of the birthing process. Clancy is a Doula with prior professional experience as a civil litigation lawyer and training in kinesiology and yoga. It is Clancy's deep desire and burning passion to facilitate women on their birthing journey's, helping them cultivate their inner power, and find their voices within a medical system that is often unsupportive. Clancy creates a sacred container for women in the birthing space, helping them to recognise and dissolve fear and overwhelm, guiding them towards the harmony that exists between their intellect and intuition.   Tahnee and Clancy explore: Clancy's story and birth journey. The role of the doula in the birth space. The value of creating a birth plan and what a birth plan can offer you.  How to use your psychic antenna to align yourself with birthing allies. Pregnancy and birth as highly intuitive times in a woman's life. Birth as a portal to shadow work and self healing. Obstetrics and the technocratic model in child birth. The Birthing From Within paradigm. How to step into your innate power as a woman.   Who is Clancy Allen?   Clancy is a birth mentor and birth keeper, wise woman, and mother to a spirited 4 year old boy. Clancy honours the continuum of the childbearing phases from preconception, to pregnancy, birth and motherhood as potent opportunities for personal growth and transformation. After transitioning away from a half a decade career as a Lawyer to study yoga and kinesiology, it was pregnancy that catalysed Clancy’s interest in birth. Clancy’s passion to support women during the childbearing continuum was born with her son. Clancy went on to study as a Sacred Birth doula with Anna Watts (in the Byron shire), Birthing From Within, and the Radical Birth Keeper School. Clancy offers birth mentoring and birth keeping, postnatal mother support, mothering the mother ceremonies, and her online course, Yoga for Empowered Birth. Clancy holds space for women to recover their inner authority and voice, to remember their innate birthing wisdom and power, and to experience birth as a joyous initiation to mothering. Peaceful, primal, biological, loving birth is the revolution our world needs, now.   Resources: Clancy's Website Clancy's Instagram Birthing From Within Website   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:00) Hi everybody, and welcome to the SuperFeast Podcast. Today I am joined by Clancy who happens to be a friend of mine, but she's also an amazing birth mentor and birth keeper. Her name is Clancy Allen, excuse me. And we'll link to all of her website and everything a bit later on, but she's got a really awesome Instagram and a great website, and online courses, so lots of resources out there for mums that are in that birthing time or birthing phase of life.   Tahnee: (00:29) But I'm really excited to share Clancy with you all today because she's just someone that I've really enjoyed following her journey, and I've learned a lot from her sharing and her resources that she shares. She's got this really beautiful way of pulling in the facts and then also the weaving in the deeply intimate and personal experiences of birth. I'm really excited to have you here today, Clancy. Thanks for taking the time.   Clancy Allen: (00:53) Thanks Tahnee. Thanks for that beautiful introduction.   Tahnee: (00:58) Oh, that's so nice. But, yeah, I know we've had trouble lining this up because of life, but yeah, it's really nice to finally be here. And I was just thinking about you the other day and just I think I bumped into you, and you were really pregnant, and I remember you looked really beautiful; and at that point pregnancy was not even on my horizon. And, yeah, it's interesting we're both here now five years later with little people, so big growth for both of us, I'm sure.   Clancy Allen: (01:25) Yeah. But it's interesting because it wasn't that long after we did have that encounter and bumped into each other that you were pregnant, I think. Or I feel it wasn't that long.   Tahnee: (01:36) It's true. I don't know the exact dates but, yeah, it would have been no more than six months, I think. Well, when was Loui born?   Clancy Allen: (01:44) He was February 2016.   Tahnee: (01:47) Yes. Aiya's December, so yeah.   Clancy Allen: (01:50) Not too far apart.   Tahnee: (01:51) Yeah, so you do this amazing birth keeping work now. I know that you were in the holistic space then, but I imagine your birth was a really transformative way of you moving into this work. Are you able to tell us…? I know you were a lawyer at one time, how does lawyer Clancy become birth mentor Clancy? What's the journey there?   Clancy Allen: (02:16) Yes. I was a lawyer and I practised as a lawyer for six years, so it was a good effort trying on that career and seeing if it was the right fit. And it absolutely wasn't. And I always had this inkling, I suppose, that it wasn't. But, for whatever reason, I ignored my intuition around that and pressed on. And it was a lot of ticking the boxes and doing the things that we think are going to be important. And making decisions as a 17, 18 year old after leaving school for the rest of your life is, you know... A little bit insane.   Clancy Allen: (03:04) That was the decision I made and the path I took. And I practised as a personal injury lawyer in civil litigation for six years and just became very disillusioned with it all. And it was a very masculine career, long hours sitting at a desk. It really just wasn't fitting into how I saw my future. And the spaces that I was moving into, I guess, I'd discovered yoga and was really stepping away from that dominant narrative around our bodies and our health and medicine, and really starting to question all that and look at things through a more holistic lens.   Clancy Allen: (03:52) I think I saw a naturopath for the first time when I was a lawyer. Yeah, I was pretty late to the party with all that because I grew up in a house with two parents who were nurses so they very much in that, conditioned in that way and indoctrinated into that system and everything it stands for. There was a lot of unlearning, I suppose, and seeing things differently. And I found yoga and yoga was the thing that kept me able to keep going in law for a couple more years until I finally got to a crunch point and I had to leave.   Clancy Allen: (04:44) And I went travelling for six months in South America on my own and had no epiphany while I was there about what I wanted to do. Like I thought “Maybe the heavens will open while I'm on this epic backpacking journey in South America and I'm going to discover what I want to be,” but that didn't happen. It took more time. My partner and I moved up to the Northern territory and lived in Kakadu, and I did some yoga teacher trainings, and then I studied kinesiology for a year and I fell pregnant that year.   Clancy Allen: (05:24) It wasn't.. It was sort of a conscious conception, but it was like we had a conversation and then we were pregnant. There wasn't this extended period of trying, which we thought that might be the case, so it was like, “Whoa.” I did have a bit of ambivalence initially, and it was a bit of a surprise and just wrapping my head around the fact that now I'm pregnant. Wow, this is sudden and I still don't know what I want to be. And I think I was 33 at this time. I actually booked my first anti-natal appointments with an obstetrician in Newcastle, even though we were living three hours out of Darwin.   Clancy Allen: (06:23) And I thought, “Oh, yeah, I'll travel down there and see this obstetrician that a friend had recommended.” I'm not sure what I was thinking. But as I started to actually do some of my own reading and research, and learn about the obstetric model vs midwifery based model of care and what those two frameworks looked like and what the care might be like, I started to think, “Oh, okay. Then I think that's what I want. I'm really wanting to aim for a normal physiological birth here, so that doesn't feel like the right thing.   Clancy Allen: (07:00) And why am I trying to make it easy for my family and everyone else down in Newcastle to see me when my baby is born and meet my baby? Why aren't I…” We lived up in Darwin at that stage, why aren't I doing the things that make life easy for me and having my baby up here. I discovered there was these publicly funded home birth service and jumped on that. And I was really excited and just totally devouring everything about birth; and started to think, during that pregnancy, that maybe this is what I want to do.   Clancy Allen: (07:39) I heard about a doula and I just had this inkling that maybe working as a doula was what I would do after I'd had my baby. But I also thought it's probably just a phase and once he's born I'll be over it. But then nine months later, when I was still reading birth books, I realised I needed to do a doula training. And yeah, so it went from there and I've just done more and more trainings, learnt from more great teachers, have studied as an educator in the birthing from within frameworks, so really use their model a lot in my mentoring. And now have just started the radical birth keeper school with the amazing women who collaborate to found the free birth society. Yeah.   Tahnee: (08:45) Yeah. For people that don't know, can you tell us what a doula is first? Because I think some people don't even really understand that particular type of offering in that birth space.   Clancy Allen: (08:59) Yeah. It's pretty simple. A doula is a birth companion or birth support person who's there for the birth in woman's support but also the partner. Really it's not a medical role. She's there to meet the emotional needs of that woman and support her in that transition through the birth process. And usually there's prenatal education and getting to know one another, and building that trust and rapport with the woman and her partner, and up-skilling that partner so that he feels equipped to move through the process. And then post-natally they can also be some support as well depending on the doulas inclination to offer that. Yeah.   Tahnee: (09:50) And so, and women by my understanding, would typically choose that person to support them in any kind of birth setting. It's not just a home birth or any kind of… Outside the normal birth, for want of a better word. But so did you end up using a doula yourself for your birth?   Clancy Allen: (10:10) Yes. Yes. So I did have a doula. I had a nightmare at about 28 weeks that I ended up in the hospital. Whether this was a premonition or just one of those normal fears that women have about birth, I woke up and I thought, “Right, I need to get a doula because I've got this fear about ending up in the hospital and that's going to solve all my problems.” And it's only now, with a lot of reflection and hindsight, that I can see how I really handing my power away and looking externally for something or someone to save me from what I was perceiving as the worst case scenario in my birth.   Clancy Allen: (11:06) And by doing that I really was avoiding the actual work of looking at the fear and unpacking the fear, and was jumping into this problem-solving mindset. And yeah, a big part of my work now is around really tackling and confronting fears, which are totally normal part of these huge initiation and transformation that we undergo as women. Yeah, it can be overwhelming and it can be scary and that's multi-factorial why it's scary and overwhelming and individual as well. But yeah, for me, that was an avoidance thing and it didn't serve me to do that because I was not willing, I guess, to look at my fear.   Clancy Allen: (12:03) And I thought that by getting a doula that would just solve my problems. And doulas, unfortunately, are incredible and offer amazing nourishing support and space holding but they're not fairies who can come into a birth and wave a wand. They can't change the system and the inherent power dynamics and things that happen within that system that can be sometimes really negative and abusive. They're not bodyguards either. I guess, maybe, I had some misconceptions about all that. And there was a lot of other things too but, yeah.   Tahnee: (12:47) Yeah. I think sometimes, and we talked about this before we came on, there's an assumption that they have some rights, I guess, to control the situation in a birthing situation, but that's not the case really. A doula is a support person so they're not really able to intervene too much, from what I understand. Is that correct?   Clancy Allen: (13:11) Well, yeah. I mean, you have these institutions, hospitals, with a hierarchy within them where the obstetricians are at the top of that hierarchy. And then there might be nurses and midwives. And the doula is definitely way down the bottom of the line in terms of a pecking order and is, I think, seen by some medical providers, not all obviously, but as someone who's totally unqualified. And we don't have medical training usually, although there are some midwives who are doulas and that type of thing.   Clancy Allen: (13:54) But for the most part there's no professional medical training. There's an understanding of the medical system and normal physiological birth, so I guess our perspectives are not valued really by that hierarchy. And yeah, there's not much ability to sway what's happening if it has started to spiral. If things are running pretty smoothly and it hasn't turned into a spiralling stressful situation, there's definitely scope for the doula to act as, I guess, an intermediary and also support the partner to be the advocate.   Clancy Allen: (14:44) Because, let's face it, a birthing woman can't really advocate for herself to her full capacity because her prefrontal cortex is totally offline for very good reasons. She's in her primal brain and all those executive functions are just not there, which is how it should be. There's not much decision making ability, language. All that is compromised so it's really quite impossible for her, in such a vulnerable state, to be able to advocate for herself and even make decisions.   Clancy Allen: (15:27) Now I'm going off on a tangent, but even to give informed consent seems like it's just a false concept, because how can you give consent when your whole thinking capacity is impaired. And I guess impaired doesn't really sound like the right word because it suggests that it's like a dysfunction, which it's not. It's perfect. It's biologically sound and intelligent and perfect for her to be in that place. But then we expect her to make decisions and give informed consent and it just doesn't fit. It's incongruent.   Tahnee: (16:16) Yeah. That's so interesting you say that because… I mean, I chose to have a hospital midwife program home birth as well I remember lots of things I thought about before the birth. And then in it I just was like… I mean, the closest example I can have is like psychedelic drugs. I was completely on another planet and it was very embodied and very primal. But, yeah, they were asking me things and I was like, “I just can't process anything right now.” You know?   Tahnee: (16:52) I was thinking, Mase knew what I wanted and it was all fine, and none of the questions were particularly hard, but I was thinking afterwards, “Can you imagine if I'd had to make a decision about do you want to be transferred or do this?” I mean, I wouldn't have had a hope. I think about that a lot. And when you said earlier about it's so difficult and you've seen so many cases of consent not being given or not being able to be given, I think that becomes a really grey tricky area in terms of giving care to a pregnant woman and supporting the birth process.   Tahnee: (17:28) Given now what you know and what you've witnessed and your experiences so far, is there any advice or perspective you can offer on that whole idea of consent in birth and how that all fits together?   Clancy Allen: (17:44) I think if women are choosing to birth in the system, and let's face it 95% or upwards even, are, this concept of having a birth plan is often scoffed at and ridiculed. And there's this perspective that, well, anything can happen so what's the point in planning. But a birth plan, the power of it isn't in the document itself and showing up to your birth with this document that you've written and saying what you want. The power of the planning is in learning and understanding what the system might be offering you, what you may or may not want, and formulating that document ahead of time and in communication with your care providers.   Clancy Allen: (18:41) Having discussions with them about the various things that would normally go in the plan so that they're aware of your perspective on X, Y, and Z. And you have an opportunity, I guess, to iron out any possible philosophical differences, an opportunity to even leave that care provider if, during those discussions, it becomes apparent that they're just not willing to support the things that you want. Because it's never too late to find another care provider. Well, that I guess comes with the caveat that it depends on what the options are in your area geographically as well.   Clancy Allen: (19:27) But if there is another option, you can leave when you're 39 weeks and go and find someone else if you've just suddenly realised they're not on board with what I want here and they're not going to support that, and if you've got alarm bells and red flags. The power of that planning process and that document is really in the many discussions that you should have with that care provider before about what you want so that it's not a surprise.   Clancy Allen: (19:57) And when you're having those discussions, I think really important to be feeling into your body to get a sense of their body language because sometimes people can talk the talk but then when it comes to… And you hear that happening a lot with women who birth saying that I was fooled or tricked. They said that they would support this and then when I went into labour everything changed. You really have to have your psychic antenna on, I think. And we are all psychic but I guess we're all conditioned away from that.   Clancy Allen: (20:43) But we're especially open when we're pregnant. We have that real openness in our field, so dropping into that and getting a real felt sense of how you're feeling in your body in those interactions and if that feeling is matching what they're saying. Because I think that's really important, that unspoken stuff. But, yeah.   Tahnee: (21:11) I think what I'm really hearing is examining the full. I mean, I guess that was something I have witnessed and spoken with friends about. It's like this is how I'm going to birth and so I think it's important to do due diligence and actually examine the range of possibilities. And that was something, I know for me, we had to talk about. Well, what happens if I get transferred? And what happens if… And it wasn't to entertain fear as much as to make sure that everyone knew what we wanted in those stages, I suppose, and which hospitals we wanted to go to and which ones we didn't.   Tahnee: (21:50) And, again, you don't know what you don't know but you can, with a bit of education, understand what the different possibilities might be. I think it's this sense, and maybe what you were saying before about how you were looking at a doula to fix it instead of really looking within. It seems like your work has really shifted to that inner journey toward… There's that great saying that goes around on memes all the time; but it's, how you birth is how you live. Right? It's like what we're not willing to examine shows up when we birth.   Tahnee: (22:26) And I know that, for me, definitely I was in and out of my thinking controlling mind. I wanted to control the whole process. And then in the primal body the mind which was like, “Get out of the way. We've got this,” kind of thing. I could feel myself shifting in and out of those spaces. It was a really profound experience. But yeah, is that how your work has shifted. Is it more on the mothers in a landscape, I suppose?   Clancy Allen: (22:55) Totally. Yeah. And I think there's a lot to be said about what you just said as well, about looking at all the different alternatives, I suppose, and pathways that might happen and understanding them. You knew where you wanted to go if you did need to transfer. And I think there's this misconception that you don't focus on the thing that you don't want to happen because you don't want to manifest it. Something like, yeah, if you're fearful of having a caesarian then let's just not talk about it.   Clancy Allen: (23:33) And let's not focus on that because I don't want that to happen, so I just absolutely cannot go there. But we give the fear so much energy just by keeping it at bay and holding it away from our mind and our consciousness. Yes, my work is definitely about going into that and exploring that. And also we don't really recognise I think in our culture as well that we've been preparing for birth our whole lives but we just don't recognise that. We fall pregnant and then we think, “Oh, wow, I'm pregnant. What do I need to do to get ready for this?”   Clancy Allen: (24:14) But we come to birth with all our baggage essentially. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. We come to it with our beliefs, our assumptions, our conditioning, all the narratives out there around birth being quite negative. And we definitely take that on at some level. It's everywhere, that narrative and that dialogue. And even our own birth imprint from when we were born, what happened then? How did we interpret the world in ourselves at a body level? Did we feel it as a safe place when we were born?   Clancy Allen: (24:59) What's our own imprint there, because that can come into it? Our family stories and also the rite of passage of menstruation. What happened to us during that? And for me, at least, there wasn't really any celebration. It was exciting but it was like, “Well, here's the things that you need, pads, tampons,” and you just get on with it and carry on with life as normal. There was no awareness around the cycles and honouring and understanding the whole cycle and ovulation and all of that type of thing. That just was totally missing.   Clancy Allen: (25:40) And if you suffered in any way from that monthly bleed, then just take drugs or let's just put you on the pill and suppress it. And so that's our initiation to our bodies being totally disconnected from them. If that's happened to us, which for a lot of us it has, that then plays into birth because birth is a body-based event. We're forced into our bodies. And if it's foreign territory for us to be in that and have that somatic awareness and to stay with all that, it can be really confronting. And we can just want to block it or numb it, I suppose, like we've been conditioned towards with that earlier rite of passage.   Clancy Allen: (26:28) Yeah. And I didn't fully comprehend all that, I don't think, with my own preparation. I think I felt like by doing all the right things, getting the doula, doing the calm birth course, reading the right things and choosing to have a home verse through a publicly funded home birth scheme, that I'd covered all my bases and the formula was met, and I'd ticked my boxes, and I'd get the birth I wanted. I didn't understand the importance of really doing that inner work and looking at all my past stuff. And there was a lot there to look at.   Tahnee: (27:11) Yeah, there was.   Clancy Allen: (27:13) But I think it's never done.   Tahnee: (27:15) No. Absolutely not.   Clancy Allen: (27:18) That's what being human is, I think. Yeah, and that's where I really focus my work and my mentoring now with couples and women. Is looking at all that stuff. And also looking at the rules and agreements that we made as children. We decide how we need to be in the world when we're very young. We make rules that govern us even when we're adults. It might be, I need to be compliant and quiet to get love. That's when I get praise and that's when I get love, and so if I'm quiet and a good girl and obedient then I'm worthy of getting that love.   Clancy Allen: (28:07) And even just an agreement like that one that we might've made when we were five or whatever can carry on and come into the birth space and influence how we engage with a system that has that authority platform as well with the expert. Yeah, it becomes a whole big tangled web of so many things that can influence us in that experience that is going back to our entire life history really.   Tahnee: (28:46) I don't know exactly what happened with your son, but I know that you had some birth trauma. What was your experience in the end, and what was your process I suppose? I'm sure the work you're doing is part of your healing, but there are other things that really helped you transform that experience into something more meaningful.   Clancy Allen: (29:08) Yeah. After it happened, yeah, I was in a bit of a dark place and just learning how to be a mother and learning breastfeeding and was overwhelmed with all that. The trauma that had happened, I just put in a box for a little while, compartmentalised and got on with it, and perhaps was in a bit of survival mode. And then it was no more than six months later though after his birth that I was ready to look at it. I know women carry their birth stories with them for their entire lifetime sometimes and it's a really deep wound, but maybe it was because…   Clancy Allen: (29:55) I don't know why I was really willing to look at it pretty soon. I think that's a pretty early timeframe. At five months I started looking for someone who could help me unpack what happened and process my emotions and hold me in a container. I found a woman, she lives in your area, called Angela Fitzgerald. Beautiful woman. She used to be a midwife and a doula, and she's a mother and just holds really powerful space. I worked with her for at least six months, I think. We would talk on Skype and that was the beginning.   Clancy Allen: (30:39) And then something that was really powerful was getting my hospital notes from the hospital and looking at them, because I was meant to have a home birth but had to transfer because of a resource staffing issue from their perspective. It wasn't because of anything to do with my body or the process, so I ended up in the hospital. And I guess a common internalised feeling that a woman who's had a traumatic birth would be my body failed me, my body let me down, because you get that label of failure to progress or whatever might have unfolded, but that's a common story.   Clancy Allen: (31:30) Getting the records was really helpful for me because it confirmed that my body was actually progressing by their standards and measurements anyway, which I honestly don't hold that much value in. But at the time that was like, “Oh, okay. I was progressing.” And for a woman to even be able to progress in that environment is astonishing really because Dr. Sarah Buckley talks about the conditions that women need to birth and its darkness, privacy, not being observed, safety, familiarity, all these things.   Clancy Allen: (32:10) And yet you step into the system and there's lights, there's strangers, there's a room you've never seen before in your life and you'll probably never be in again. There's surveillance with monitoring, there's technology, all the things that are totally the opposite of what supports birth flowing and the hormones working. For any woman to be able to birth a baby in that setting is just remarkable and just shows how-   Tahnee: (32:42) Adaptable we are?   Clancy Allen: (32:42) Yeah, exactly. That was helpful, to see that and look at all that. I've done so many things. I wrote a big blog post on it which is on my website, and I think there are about 20 things that I listed that I've done that have been really supportive in me getting perspective, and being able to sit with my story now and not feel triggered or upset, and to really see the lessons. And Pam England said… She wrote the Birthing From Within book and she's who I've studied with. And she had a traumatic first birth experience, which ended in a caesarian. And I think she was a midwife.   Clancy Allen: (33:29) And so, her lifelong quest was working out what the hell happened to me. And she finally one day just cracked up laughing out loud and realised, just had this epiphany, that she'd been looking for a way to heal her birth experience and doing all these things and exploring and investigating; but the cosmic joke, and the reason she laughed, was because her birth healed her. Yeah, it just eliminated so much for her. And I feel like that's been the case for me as well. It doesn't take away that it was painful and it wasn't what I wanted, but there's been gifts that have come from it for sure.   Tahnee: (34:16) Oh, that's really powerful. It's such an interesting thing, what you were just talking about with Sarah Buckley's work, because I remember listening to her podcasts with Daniel Vitalis when I was pregnant and they were just so.. It made so much sense. And I was reading Ina May as well and she was talking about how birth is the continuation of sex and if you're not comfortable having sex in front of strangers under bright lights why would you even think that you could birth that way.   Tahnee: (34:50) And it is incredible to me that we come in… Some people do successfully navigate that system. And I think about my own mum because she birthed me in a hospital and she always said to me she had to tell the doctor to fuck off so that she could walk up and down the hallway. Because she was like, “I used to birth horses,” because she would bred horses when she was a kid. And she was like, “I knew that when you were birthing you don't lie down on your back. You walk up and down.” And she's like, “I had to tell them to fuck off so I could squat in the hallway,” and all this stuff. And I just laughed.   Tahnee: (35:21) But it was interesting that her way of birthing sovereign was to be really strong and almost masculine in it and having to take her power. And I remember feeling those kinds of feelings when I was birthing and I can feel how my own tendency, I guess, is to muscle through something instead of to soften into something. And I think even if you've had a textbook good birth there are so many lessons from… Because it's such a big process and an initiation. And it's like if you take the time to reflect and to really nurture yourself through that process, you can come out with so much juice for your own development.   Tahnee: (36:02) And here I am. Aiya's is nearly four and I'm realising I've still been doing the same things. And I was talking to Jane Hardwicke Collings and she was talking about how we menopause that way too. We menopause how we live so we'll muscle through it, or we'll whatever your personal shit is. That's my shit. And I think it's like we can use these opportunities. We can all come to these things, whether they're positive or negative or whatever the framework is, to just, to develop ourselves.   Tahnee: (36:32) And that's what I've seen. Your work, to me, speaks so much to that opportunity that there is in this experience, that some of us have and some of us don't. Not everyone chooses to birth, but it can be such a rich fertile ground for self-transformation and for understanding ourselves better and for healing so much, I think. It was kind of a long way of saying it's so nice to speak to somebody who had a traumatic experience who's used it to fuel that positive change, I suppose.   Tahnee: (37:05) And also, I think it's good to remember that everyone's having these huge initiations no matter what type of birth you're having, whether it's under hospital lights with obstetricians coming in and out or whether it's at home quiet. It's a big process. And the more, as women, we can all rise together and honour each other in that and support each other, I think that to me is probably the thing that's missing. And I didn't find it in the mothers groups and the women's groups. I just didn't find the depth, I guess, that I was looking for.   Tahnee: (37:40) Because you've gone and studied all these things, I imagine you're having these conversations a lot with women who were interested in similar things. I know you do ritual and circle and ceremony, are there more of those things happening now and if women are, I guess, trying to honour their transformation through this time? Is it finding those communities and networks or is it…? Do you have any advice or suggestions on how to connect to like-minded women or that kind of thing?   Clancy Allen: (38:12) Yeah, a great question. I guess right now we're in an unusual situation with the distancing that's been in place over the last few months. I feel really stumped with this question.   Tahnee: (38:30) I know I probably through the biggest question at you.   Clancy Allen: (38:32) Do I have to edit that out?   Tahnee: (38:34) No. I think what I'm getting at… And it is a big question. Because what I'm really feeling is like women divide instead of leaning in. There's this tendency to like, okay, well I've got the baby now. I've done the birth. It was shit, but it's fine. It's done. I've muscled through the birth again, or I'll get through it if I ever want to do it again for a sibling. But, I've got the baby and that's the focus. I guess what I'm getting at is, to me, there's this really fertile territory that we're like if we ignore that opportunity, it's going to come up again and it's going to come up again.   Tahnee: (39:16) Like you said, human life never stops. We keep going through these initiations and transformations. Yeah, I guess I'm just getting at I know you've worked in ceremony and ritual and that space. And I know in other cultures they honour the mother or there's the confinement phase and then I'm sure that grandparents and aunties and people hold space. We don't really have that in our culture, I guess. And I guess what I'm getting at is, in your experience, where do women find that? Is t through.. Are there women's circles? I know that that's becoming a lot more popular.   Tahnee: (39:55) Now you do prenatal yoga. Are there postnatal yoga places where people talk about these things? Are there other spaces, I suppose, evolving or coming through in your experience that honour the process? Because a lot of what I've seen seems to be women doing it on their own or within a smaller group of friends that are similar minded. But, yeah, just I'm interested to know.   Clancy Allen: (40:17) Yeah. I think what I'm really interested in when I create space in a circle setting for women is offering a different framework, because we have framed birth and everything really even around it, like the prenatal part and postnatal, as a medical event. And Robbie Davis-Floyd, an anthropologist that you might have heard of, she talks about the American rite of passage of birth and it being an initiation to the technocratic model of birth. And that worldview is that our bodies are machines that are subject to failure and malfunction, and we can't fix that with technology.   Clancy Allen: (41:08) And that the whole thing is a medical event. And the prenatal stage is a series of obstetric rituals which are essentially grooming women towards accepting this technocratic model, and then the glucose test. And that these rituals really have no actual basis in any meaningful value. And then you see those rituals continue in the birth process with often meaningless interventions. And I see that that's pretty true really, because a lot of the birth practises that are being used are not rooted in evidence-based practise. They're just cultural norms. It's just the way things have been done, so we'll just keep doing it that way.   Clancy Allen: (42:10) I think evidence-based practise only came in 15 years ago. No, it was in the ‘90s and then it takes 15 years for policies to change. Delayed or immediate cord clamping is still just done routinely even though we know that delaying it is preferable so that that baby gets all its blood. That's just one example. But we're really groomed towards just accepting this with all these rituals as part of this initiation. I'm really interested in showing women a different way, that there's another map, there's another framework.   Clancy Allen: (42:52) And looking at some of the things from the Birthing from Within lineage like the symbol of the labyrinth, which is this beautiful, spiralling, meandering path, and applying that as a map to what the birth experience is like. Because a labyrinth have occurred across all cultures way before there was any communication or as far as we know. And it's a metaphor or a symbol for something across these cultures that's meaningful and so we can apply that to birth.   Clancy Allen: (43:30) And when you walk through a labyrinth, it can be meditative but it can also be a little bit disorientating and confusing because there's these twisting turning hairpin turns. And you think, “Am I nearly there yet?” Or, “Where am I?” And that really parallels how it can feel in the birth dance. Sometimes you can start to think that.   Tahnee: (43:54) Are we there yet?!   Clancy Allen: (43:54) Yeah. Well, you're disorientated. It's this really beautiful metaphor and I'm planning to build one on our property here for women to actually come and walk through to have that real embodied sense of that as a different way for looking at birth, shifting this medical lens that we're so enculturated or acculturated towards. And it's just everywhere. And the story of Inanna, the Sumerian goddess who went to the underworld, that story as well really speaks to the descent that we women in that journey of descent during birth or it might even be postnatally.   Clancy Allen: (44:45) Maybe you have this ecstatic birth but there's a challenge or a struggle, so your descent to the underworld is in that period. And those stories, those ancient mythologies, that's the first story that was ever recorded ever on clay tablets in Sumer, which is now modern day Iran or Iraq. One of those, sorry. But it's really powerful. And those stories are in our collective consciousness. A lot of the time, if we've never heard them before, we're not aware of it until we hear them.   Clancy Allen: (45:22) And for a lot of us that awakens something deep within us, a deep recognition or comfort, because we can all relate to that journey somehow. Some of those tools are some of the things that I am weaving or planning to weave into circle when I get going again.   Tahnee: (45:47) Yeah. Post-Rona?   Clancy Allen: (45:49) Yeah. Yeah, post-Rona, just to show a different way and for women to connect in a different way, and to have more meaning around the experience.   Tahnee: (45:59) Well, I think what I'm really hearing there is this is a non-linear journey. Our midwives were amazing, but it was very linear. It was like, “This weeks, that weeks, [inaudible 00:46:09].” It felt like, “Tick the box, tick the box.” You go through all the things. And I think that idea of not being held to a Gregorian calendar, not being held to, “Oh, you should birth in this amount of time.” Or even with my birth like, oh, you're a first time birth or you weren't to birth till tonight when I was telling them I was in labour at 6:00 AM.   Tahnee: (46:35) And they were like, “No, no.” And I'm like, “No, no. Yes, I know I'm having a baby. I don't know why, but I [inaudible 00:46:41].” And they were like, “Oh, no, I said, "No, I am.” I was like, “No, I am.” I'm lucky because of yoga. I think that I really have cultivated more of a relationship with my body, but I think there's so much lack of education around the physiology and the body's wisdom, and that these things aren't linear and they don't occur on a timeline, and babies come when babies come, and the baby initiates the birth through its hormonal… All of that stuff.   Tahnee: (47:11) It's like there's this really beautiful bigger story, I think, not being told. And then, yeah, I can really feel that when you said about an honour and, yeah, I can really feel that. Even if you had an ecstatic birth, I didn't have one, but I'm sure I remember being in the collective. I remember being with every birthing woman at one point and going like, “Oh my God. I totally understand” I mean, it was like one of those epiphanies you have when you're on another planet. But I get it. I just get it. I'm in it. I know it. And it was like if I've been not feeling safe and medicated and whatever, I wouldn't have had that experience. Yeah, I think-   Clancy Allen: (47:51) That's so profound.   Tahnee: (47:53) But it's so empowering too, because you come out and you see women differently. I see women now with so much strength, and I can admit to less judgement too. I used to think and go, “How could someone book in a caesarian?” But in that moment actually I was like, “Oh, I understand that decision. I understand all of it.” And I was like, “Here I am being all non-judgmental in my birthing.” I'm like [inaudible 00:48:19].   Clancy Allen: (48:19) You're in this great philosophical chat yourself.   Tahnee: (48:25) I was like, “Oh, that's really…” I think I grabbed Mase and he was like, “Okay, crazy lady. Keep doing the things.” But what you said about ritual, and I'd never thought of it that way, but it's such a powerful way to think about. Everyone goes for the 20-week ultrasound and everyone goes for this and these are the celebrations of our culture and they don't celebrate the woman or the… It's like the device is celebrated almost or the technology.   Clancy Allen: (48:56) It's a ritual towards compliance and towards acceptance of that dominant medical paradigm and the body as a machine. And I guess that's a symptom or an effect of the industrial revolution and the industrial birth complex.   Tahnee: (49:16) Yeah.   Clancy Allen: (49:17) And I find it really sad.   Tahnee: (49:18) It is really sad.   Clancy Allen: (49:20) Yeah.   Tahnee: (49:22) I mean, it's dehumanising in a way because if you look at… I actually have a book that was written by a German author and it's The Body as a Machine and I think it was one of the first anatomy books, if not the first. But I don't want to make that claim because I don't know. But that actually mapped out all of the functions of the body as mechanical functions. And it's crazy to look at. It has the penis as this little…   Clancy Allen: (49:51) Like a wind up toy.   Tahnee: (49:52) Yeah, it's really funny. And all the organs, there's all these little factories pumping away. But I remember I was really shocked when I first saw it, but I also was like, “I can actually relate to this,” which shocked me as well. This part of me recognises that because I've been brought up in that culture and I was like, “Oh.”And I feel like that's so far from how we try and live but, yeah. And there's still a part of me that buys into that idea, I suppose, on some level, so more unravelling. But so tell me more about Birthing from Within. What else are you talking about or doing when you work in that paradigm?   Clancy Allen: (50:33) Yeah. One of the things that I like to share, just as a starting point for someone who's interested in birthing from within, is the framework or the three ways of knowing to prepare for birth. The first way of knowing is the modern medical knowing. This is being or knowing the stages of labour, the physiology of labour, what the modern birth culture and system is like. It's pretty linear, like just assimilating the information you need to know, learning, taking it on. We're all pretty comfortable in doing that.   Clancy Allen: (51:13) And that's the easy part of preparing because that's the part that's valued by society as well. That's got the research and the statistics and the facts and figures and the concrete knowing that you need to know. The second way of knowing is the intuitive knowing. That's your gut instinct and your connection to your body or your innate knowing, which is not particularly valued by the mainstream and really isn't in birth as well. Like in your example you said, “I'm having this baby now,” and they were like, “Oh, that's silly girl. No, you're not. You're a first time mum. You don't know.”   Clancy Allen: (52:03) Of course, you know. You're the expert of your body. You're the one in your body having the experience. And so that way of knowing is really about cultivating your connection to that; which a lot of us are so disconnected from because we live, from the shoulders up, in a very mental place. And then this way of knowing is not valued because even if you're saying, “I know this is happening,” or, “Something's not right,” but if it doesn't correlate to what they understand about what might be happening and what the evidence and the statistics or whatever says, then, you might just be dismissed or disregarded.   Clancy Allen: (52:43) And then, yeah, we really do have this whole doctor-God-expert complex, which if we are in that then we don't value our own knowing because we value what they say. We externalise the knowing. That's a big one. And I guess things like yoga can help people connect to that. And anything that's just, I think, quietening down the mind and getting into your body and connecting with the feedback that you have from your body can help you to cultivate that. A following what your intuition might say and seeing what the outcome is.   Clancy Allen: (53:32) And so then, the third way of knowing is the inner knowing or knowing who you are. This is more about that excavation of your history and your background, and your beliefs, and what's lurking in your subconscious, and how much of the negative cultural narrative about birth being a medical event that you need to be saved from, that you've taken on, and what you really believe and what your you're birth imprint is. Yeah, that's really about unpacking all that and having a good hard look at it and confronting the fears and moving through them.   Clancy Allen: (54:09) Things like, I guess, kinesiology or even just talking to someone experienced like a birth mentor or journaling and, yeah, looking at who you are and what you might bring into the birth space is that part. And that's the part that I just didn't really realise, I guess, when I was pregnant until after. And so that really needs to be the thing that you focus on the most, probably. Yeah.   Tahnee: (54:41) If you're working with women, are you usually starting reasonably early in their pregnancy, or yeah? Because I imagine it takes time to go through.   Clancy Allen: (54:50) Yeah. Yeah, that's ideal like spending an extended period of time. I've enjoyed that when couples have contacted me quite early on and we start at, say, 16 weeks or something. It really gives the space to build the relationship and to go deep into all those themes and things and for them to integrate it. Yeah, that's my preference, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes people come in quite late in the piece. But for the most part I would say people are coming in at least halfway.   Tahnee: (55:25) Yeah. My friend did a short fear session with you, but is that something you offer as well where you just work on specific aspects of what's coming up for someone, as more of a mentoring counsel?   Clancy Allen: (55:41) Yeah. Those are usually an hour to 90 minutes. And if there's something specific that you're ruminating on, or maybe there's a few things, then we can look at that. And it's called a courageous excavation of fear process. It's about moving through it and really looking at it and picking it up and, hopefully, coming out the other side feeling more empowered, more confident.   Tahnee: (56:10) That's what I heard.   Clancy Allen: (56:11) Yes.   Tahnee: (56:13) Yeah. But I think in even just speaking it. I spoke to that friend about it afterward and verbalising fear to someone who can hold it and who isn't going to react or be triggered by it. It's really powerful, I think.   Clancy Allen: (56:30) Yeah. There can be some really good shifts with that work if the person is willing to be vulnerable. And your friend was, so she was the perfect candidate. Yeah.   Tahnee: (56:43) Where does prenatal yoga fit into all this with you, because you've got your online course and stuff like that? Is that mostly an offering because people are at home or is there a value in people attending classes as well? Or what's your kind of take home with pre-natal yoga?   Clancy Allen: (57:01) Yeah. The way that I do it is I structure it as a six week block that people commit to and come to so that there's that familiar container for the six weeks. And I was doing that in person, probably only three or four times a year, and that worked beautifully. And it's just evolved, I guess, over the years that I've been teaching it and it's become a really… I think it's a really awesome offering. And yeah, now the online version is the same. It's six modules, so you go at your pace.   Clancy Allen: (57:42) But the idea is that it's education about birth from this lens of birthing from within and my own flavour fused with the yoga with a little bit of optimal maternal positioning, things that I've learned along the way. And it's really about that second way of knowing, so cultivating that connection really and that inner knowing and tuning into that. Because that's a big piece that we can all just have more practise with, but especially important to get ready for birth. I was going to say something else, but I've forgotten.   Tahnee: (58:24) Well, you've moved into the online space.   Clancy Allen: (58:26) Yeah.   Tahnee: (58:26) Is that a version of that course, like a six week kind of...   Clancy Allen: (58:32) Yeah, it's pretty much what I teach in person. In fact, it's probably a little bit more because I've put some other resources in there and some bonuses, and I guess you can keep going back to it. That's the benefit of that. And it was accelerated by the Rona. It was always something I was going to create before that all blew up, but it just happened a bit quicker. I was waiting for the perfect time till I was pregnant again and I was going to film it when I was pregnant. I was going to make sure I'd done another yoga teacher training before, because that was important too.   Clancy Allen: (59:10) And then Rona happened and I'm like, “Well, I'm not pregnant and that teacher training that I was going to go to in Bali in August is not going to be happening. I guess I'll just stay to get this out now.” And, look, things are going back to normal, sort of; but, anyway, it's there as a forever thing.   Tahnee: (59:29) Well, that's great for people that can't physically be with you so, yeah, a really good offering. We were talking about this a little bit before as well but you've recently, I think, gotten, a little bit uncomfortable with the word doula in your own work. Can you tell us a little bit about… You've been doing that for a couple of years, I guess just as a last question and what is it actually like to be there for a woman and then, as you've witnessed all of that, what do you want to see more of in that space from different care providers and just women in general? If you could remould the model a little bit, based on what you've seen, what do you think it would look like? Big question.   Clancy Allen: (01:00:13) It would look like women knowing how powerful they are and really owning their inner authority, and unlearning the seeking that we do outside of ourselves to validate our experience or to approve of it or to make sure we're okay. I know I did, in a way, during my own pregnancy and I participated in that system. And in some of the ways I engaged and participated I can see now, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection and everything, that I handed over my power in many ways.   Clancy Allen: (01:00:58) And there were opportunities in that journey to stand more in my power, but I can do that now. And I guess if I can impart anything to women who are navigating their experience and moving through the system it's for them to really own their experience and step into their autonomy over it, and be the expert of their body. And I think, yeah, the women I'm really speaking to now have just had some clarity on this in the past couple of days, so I'm speaking this out loud now for the first time.   Clancy Allen: (01:01:40) But the women that I feel that I'm really here to serve are the women who have had an experience in the system that was less than ideal and they've come out saying never again. Or maybe they were traumatised or maybe it just was really average and they're like, “No, there's got to be a better way.” Or maybe they're a woman who's really disillusioned with her prenatal appointments and feeling like her body is just a faulty machine and there's got to be something more to this, more depths, more meaning, more spirituality.   Clancy Allen: (01:02:20) Or maybe it's the woman who's had a child who's been damaged by that system in some way, or maybe she's had a chronic health condition in the past and moved through that system and found no answers whatsoever. And so I think the women I speak to, or that I'm calling in, are those women who are sort of… Yeah, they don't want to participate in that anymore. They're really willing to look within themselves for their own authority in their experience.   Tahnee: (01:02:57) Exciting times for you. And the other bit of that was what it's like, I guess, just to finish on a positive note. I'm sure there are some really beautiful experiences you've had as a doula and working with women.   Clancy Allen: (01:03:11) Definitely.   Tahnee: (01:03:14) Just how rewarding that, maybe, is for you.   Clancy Allen: (01:03:18) Yeah, it's been so rewarding. I just have had beautiful nourishing experiences supporting women. I've seen women in their power. I've seen women come back from having induced births three times and then on her fourth baby having this beautiful home birth experience. Yeah, but just being there after a woman has given birth and done that work and opened herself and expanded physically but also spiritually and being able to hold her and love her and shower her with kind words and compassion and tenderness is really rewarding. I love that. I   Clancy Allen: (01:04:10) I've often stayed for hours after the baby has been born; and a recent experience, the mum, she really needed that support after so I had a little sleep on the floor in the hospital and was there when she woke up because she was in and out of consciousness. Those moments are really special, so I hold those really dear to my heart. And, yeah, doulas are incredible because I think for the most part we have so much love to give to women and, yeah, I really believe in women.   Clancy Allen: (01:04:51) And I think what I was saying before about who I'm speaking to, remembering your innate power can apply to any woman wherever she chooses that she needs to birth, whatever the environment is that she feels safe in. It is a huge opportunity to step into your power. Yeah, that's the bottom line of it all for me, I think.   Tahnee: (01:05:20) Yes. Full power. Awesome. Okay, well, I'll leave you with that and I think that's a really powerful note to end on. But if people do want to connect with you, obviously we'll put links in the show notes to everything but mostly through… Instagram and your website are your main communication channels. Do you use Facebook as well?   Clancy Allen: (01:05:41) A little bit, yeah.   Tahnee: (01:05:42) Yeah, like most of us.   Clancy Allen: (01:05:45) It's like the poor cousin.   Tahnee: (01:05:46) Yeah, but we've moved on.   Clancy Allen: (01:05:50) Yeah.   Tahnee: (01:05:50) And if people wanted to reach you, they can contact you through your site. And actually, if they wanted to arrange a Skype session if they weren't in your area, is anything like that possible?   Clancy Allen: (01:06:00) Yeah.   Tahnee: (01:06:00) Awesome.   Clancy Allen: (01:06:02) Definitely. Yeah.   Tahnee: (01:06:03) Oh, that's so great. I think there'll be lots of women out there that really can learn about you a lot and really connect to how you approach birth. I'm really grateful for your time and for telling us your story. And yeah, thank you so much for being here with us, Clancy.   Clancy Allen: (01:06:15) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Tahnee.   Tahnee: (01:06:18) It's a pleasure. All right. Well, I'll talk to you soon.

Contact me for Clarity Coaching Sessions or with feedback on Instagram by sending me a DM @JamieMSwanson Book: This is Marketing by Seth Godin (affiliate link) Episode Transcript: there's one thing in business that almost everybody agrees on. If you want to have a successful business, you have to understand your ideal client and what keeps them up at night. [00:00:10] Who are these people? What do they need right now when we know who they are and can help them overcome this immediate need with the stuff we sell and they believe our stuff will work for them. Then they buy it. It's basic marketing. Right. But how do you stand out from all the other people who are selling something similar to the same ideal client as you? [00:00:33] How can you make your messaging shine bright in a sea of noise so that people choose you instead of your competitors. There's a simple little shift you can make that changes everything. And I'm going to share it with you in this episode. [00:00:49] most people focus on who their ideal client is right now in the present moment. Every marketing course you'll ever take will make you walk through some version of defining who your ideal client is right now, what their problem is. Where are they look for a solution and their demographic info, all sorts of things. [00:01:38] They get super detailed. I've even taught this myself. It's not wrong. Exactly. It's just not complete focused solely on the present moment who the ideal client is right now, the problem that they want to have solved right now. And most people failed focus on who their ideal client wants to be become when you shift them, Jordy of your focus on figuring out who they want to be, that bright future identity that they'll have once their problem is gone and they've been transformed. [00:02:13]Everything changes. In fact, Seth Godin said in his book, this is marketing, which you should read. If you hadn't. It's fantastic. He says people like us do things like this. Basically what he means is that we make decisions based on our identity, not just based. On our problems. It's a subtle shift in focus, but it's incredibly powerful when we start focusing on the future identity that people want to have, our messaging becomes much stronger. [00:02:49] It stands out from everyone else. Who's just talking about problems and solutions and the right here, fear and the right now. And. This is why it's so powerful. It's because it's focused on real transformation. It's real power is in helping people become who they want to be and appealing to their identity, not just to the problem or not just to some little whim or thing that they want. [00:03:16] This little subtle shift is, Oh, you stand out from the crowd. In fact, this is the basis for the entire bright future method that I've created, which helps create a bright future for both your client, through the transformation that your product gives them and a brighter future for them world, as they help you spread the word and your business impacts more and more. [00:03:44] People it's how I have built everything I've done over the last 10 years. So let me give you an example to help make this a little bit more concrete, because I know it's a little bit heady . [00:03:56] I usually see this with a bunch of newer entrepreneurs who are trying to do all the things at the same time. You know, they they've gotten some success, they've got something they've sold. They're just not growing the way that they want to. Um, but they're trying all this stuff. They figure, you know, I've literally heard the term, they're throwing something against the wall and hoping that something sticks, right? [00:04:19] So they start an email list. They do all the different social media accounts on all the big platforms. Maybe they start a blog and a podcast and, you know, maybe they make an opt in, or maybe they have several different opt ins to see which one will work best. They buy a course or two, they start doing all the tactics they make a quiz is they just do all of the things, right. [00:04:40] But it takes for ever for most of them to get any tangible results, if they get any at all. So why is that? Right? It's because they're doing all those things, things, because they think they're supposed to. Not because they have a strategic plan for leveraging those and understand the purpose between each of the pieces and how they all work together. [00:05:03] Right. They think they need to be doing those things because yeah. See other entrepreneurs, they follow doing them and they want to be that kind of successful entrepreneur. They w they do what they think a successful entrepreneur is supposed to do because they so desperately want to be successful. [00:05:22] But, like I said, they don't understand the big picture. They have no idea what the strategy is behind all the moving pieces. So they aren't getting results. In fact, this is why most of them feel imposter syndrome. they second guess themselves all the time, they don't feel like they're good enough or legitimate. [00:05:38] because frankly they're super busy doing quote unquote. All the right things, but they are making any money because they're missing the most important part. Right. And in some cases they may even start to wonder if it's their own fault. Like they might start to think that maybe there's something inherently wrong in them that is keeping them from their success. [00:06:00] Like maybe they don't have what it takes or maybe the aren't good enough or maybe they aren't smart enough to make this happen. Or maybe they're not working hard enough and just need to hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle more, or make it harder on themselves. You know, whatever they, they overcomplicate things. [00:06:17] Do you ever feel that way? Here's what I know to be true. If someone doesn't make it in business. It's not usually because they aren't good enough or they don't have what it takes. They just need to get really clear on the big picture strategy and understand how all the moving parts work together. They need that simple step by step plan to follow, and they need to stop trying to do all the things they need. [00:06:43] Focus. And clarity and they need to stop second guessing themselves and overcome any fears, holding them back and start taking interest. Intentional action. It's amazing how much people do because they think they are surprised host you in order to be a good so, and so in fact, some people build a pretty successful business, just trying to do what they think they're supposed to do. [00:07:05] So you can have some level of success here, but it definitely can be very limiting. You know, I was talking to a person earlier this week on a clarity coaching consultation call, where we were seeing if it would be a good fit for us to work together. And, , they were actually thinking about changing their entire product and business model. [00:07:28] Because they thought they had to do it in order to be a successful entrepreneur, even though they didn't really want to serve these new clients and they didn't really want to do it that way at all. In fact, if they had made this pivot, that would have been a huge mistake because it wasn't what they were passionate about. [00:07:45] It didn't align with their deeper purpose or who they were. And they just thought that in order to be the person they wanted to be to be this successful entrepreneur, this is what they had to do because that's what so many people around them we're doing. So I offer clarity coaching days to help people create that step-by-step strategic plan to become the successful and bright entrepreneur that they want to be. [00:08:10]And when I talk about how I help someone go from just throwing things against the wall and hoping one of them sticks to building an intentional plan that helps them become the profitable entrepreneur that they want to be. It's far more compelling than just talking about how I can help them get more members or make more money or grow their email list. [00:08:30] You see that it's a subtle difference, but it's a powerful one. You know, I'm not just talking about the results. I'm talking about the identity. That they want to have and how I can help them become that person. This is why I base my entire bright future method of running a business on helping someone experience real transformation from. [00:08:52] the stuff that you're selling, right. And when you shift your own marketing to speak to your clients, bright future identity, whatever it is, cause it will be different for all of us and the clients that we want to work with. It's going to help you stand out and shine bright in a sea of noise. [00:09:10] This is what we can, you'd separate ourselves from all of that. And frankly, as a side note, this is also what allows you to speak to more than just one ideal client. So as long as they all have the same bright future identity, and they all want to have that identity in the future, if you focus your messaging on that, and that's the primary driver, you can actually connect with a far broader audience and expand your market base. [00:09:37] Even if that ideal client right now, Looks very different from each other. Cause the thing they have in common is who they want to become. So here's what I want you to do. Give it a try. Let me know how it goes, shift some of your messaging, start talking about that, the person that they can become, and then let me know how it goes. [00:09:57] You can send me a DM on Instagram at Jamie M Swanson. I'll put that in the show notes as well. So you have that there and just let me know how it goes, because I know that this is subtle. But it's powerful. It's so incredibly powerful and most people don't get it at all. So if you find yourself listening to this and thinking, man, okay, I want to be that entrepreneur that Jamie's talking about. [00:10:24] I'd love to work with her to get even more clear on my messaging and, you know, learn more about this bright future method and how you can use it in your own business. and you already have a product or service that gets people results. I would love to help you. , right now I'm doing it. Clarity coaching day is helping bright entrepreneurs who not only want to make a profit, but want to make a real impact in the world with their business. [00:10:47] I'd love to help you do that. I'd love to help you create messaging. That's going to grow your business impact and grow. the impact you're having on the world, not just in your business. So if you're interested, all you really need to do is go down into the show notes, find my contact information, and then. [00:11:05] Send me a message. Tell me what you'd like to do if I have any open spots available. Cause I'm only doing two of these per week. We will set up a free 30 minute call will where I will ask you a bunch of questions about your business to help discover, where you should be focusing your business right now. [00:11:22] And, make sure that it's a good fit for us to work together because I absolutely only want to work with people that I know can make their money back from the clarity coaching day. Very easily once they implement the plan. if we both feel like it's a good fit, then we'll schedule a clarity coaching day with each other and we'll work together to create a step by step plan for helping you create the business that you want to create. [00:11:46] We can clarify your messaging to help you stand out from all the other people who are trying to sell it to the same people that you are. And we can use that bright future method to really become clear on who you're going to help people become and how to get them to that point. Okay. How to shift your messaging, how to change all that, how to communicate it in a way that builds desire for whatever it is that you're selling. [00:12:12] So just head on over to the show notes right now, send me a message. If you found this helpful would love it. If you'd subscribe to the podcast, if you haven't already so that you never miss an episode. And if you would leave a review would be really, really appreciate, you know, if you've got a friend, you can always tell them too, that would be awesome. [00:12:28] Would really love to grow this podcast. If they are the kind of person who really wants to make a difference in the world, because that's who I want to work with. And that's who lights me up most. So we are brighter together. My friend, the world needs us and our businesses, so let's go and make it brighter.  

In this show you will learn how Soul Alignment makes business easier and simpler and how they can become more aligned which is a critical skill in this new economy.How would you like a quick and easy way to leap forward in your business and your life? And to be able to fulfill your purpose at the same time? Sounds amazing. Right?It’s all about aligning with your Soul. You’ll discover why that is important and also gain some tools for aligning.We’ll also talk about the blueprint of your Soul contained in the Akashic Records. Don’t worry, we’ll tell you all about them.And also about accessing your Soul Wealth Map which contains your Manifesting Archetypes and Operating System. This is what makes you unique, brilliant and supremely confident.Your Soul Wealth Map gives you clarity on your personal path of ease and flow and on your purpose. It’s also a lifetime guide for making decisions and for knowing what is best for you.You’ll gain insights into how your Soul operates, how you can align and about manifesting. You’ll also receive an energetic clearing of an emotional block or trauma of your choosing. It’s incredible!Be sure to subscribe to this show for weekly episodes with other “go-getters” and inspiring leaders, coaches, and entrepreneurs.You can find out more about Hanna at www.dreamlifeisreallife.com/show and connect with her on Instagram @hannahermansonABOUT SERENA CURRANSerena Curran, MBA, Soulful Business and Manifestation Mentor, is a multi-talented Reinvention Expert, Adventurer, Traveler, Free Spirit, Soul Genie, Akashic Record Detective and Medical Intuitive.She’s wandered through much of the US and Europe recreating her life and her business as she landed in new countries or states. She loves bringing her free-spirited, innovative brand of Spiritual Teaching and Healing to her clients worldwide.With over 25 years of experience, she fulfills her mission of helping entrepreneurial women create freedom, money and ease by designing and building Soul Aligned businesses that tap into their genius and express their spiritual gifts.In her work with her clients, she draws upon her training, her experience as a serial international entrepreneur, her background in Sales, Marketing, and Management along with Energy Healing, Akashic Record Reading, and Manifestation Expertise.Serena is the Founder of the Wisely Wealthy Spiritual Business School and is known for her caring, supportive, direct approach, and her big smile. She offers Online Courses and one-on-one coaching programs to assist her clients in building a Soul-aligned business that generates wealth with ease, joy and simplicity.Dream Life is Real Lifehttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/dream-life-is-real-life/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/episode-57-the-secret-to-reinventing-your-business-for-the-new-economy-soul-alignment-with-serena-curran-and-hanna-hermanson

In this show you will learn how Soul Alignment makes business easier and simpler and how they can become more aligned which is a critical skill in this new economy.How would you like a quick and easy way to leap forward in your business and your life? And to be able to fulfill your purpose at the same time? Sounds amazing. Right?It’s all about aligning with your Soul. You’ll discover why that is important and also gain some tools for aligning.We’ll also talk about the blueprint of your Soul contained in the Akashic Records. Don’t worry, we’ll tell you all about them.And also about accessing your Soul Wealth Map which contains your Manifesting Archetypes and Operating System. This is what makes you unique, brilliant and supremely confident.Your Soul Wealth Map gives you clarity on your personal path of ease and flow and on your purpose. It’s also a lifetime guide for making decisions and for knowing what is best for you.You’ll gain insights into how your Soul operates, how you can align and about manifesting. You’ll also receive an energetic clearing of an emotional block or trauma of your choosing. It’s incredible!Be sure to subscribe to this show for weekly episodes with other “go-getters” and inspiring leaders, coaches, and entrepreneurs.You can find out more about Hanna at www.dreamlifeisreallife.com/show and connect with her on Instagram @hannahermansonABOUT SERENA CURRANSerena Curran, MBA, Soulful Business and Manifestation Mentor, is a multi-talented Reinvention Expert, Adventurer, Traveler, Free Spirit, Soul Genie, Akashic Record Detective and Medical Intuitive.She’s wandered through much of the US and Europe recreating her life and her business as she landed in new countries or states. She loves bringing her free-spirited, innovative brand of Spiritual Teaching and Healing to her clients worldwide.With over 25 years of experience, she fulfills her mission of helping entrepreneurial women create freedom, money and ease by designing and building Soul Aligned businesses that tap into their genius and express their spiritual gifts.In her work with her clients, she draws upon her training, her experience as a serial international entrepreneur, her background in Sales, Marketing, and Management along with Energy Healing, Akashic Record Reading, and Manifestation Expertise.Serena is the Founder of the Wisely Wealthy Spiritual Business School and is known for her caring, supportive, direct approach, and her big smile. She offers Online Courses and one-on-one coaching programs to assist her clients in building a Soul-aligned business that generates wealth with ease, joy and simplicity.Dream Life is Real Lifehttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/dream-life-is-real-life/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/episode-57-the-secret-to-reinventing-your-business-for-the-new-economy-soul-alignment-with-serena-curran-and-hanna-hermanson

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Steve Fourni sitting in for the vacationing Jim Polito and we discussed Adobe Flash and why it went from Cool to Get it off my machine and why VPNs may not be keeping you safe. Here we go with Steve. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: [00:00:00] Craig Peterson: They might not realize it, but you probably have not been using it for a year or more. And if you're an Apple iOS user, you've never used it. Whoa, man. Things are moving fast this morning. Craig Peterson here, I was on with. Steve Forni on a couple of stations down in mass, WHYN and WTAG covering central Western Mass parts of Rhode Island and Vermont and Connecticut. And we were talking about three or four different things. But to me, the thing that mattered the most was this discussion about VPNs at home and at work. Anyhow, here we go with this morning's radio hit. Steve Fourni: After the eight 30 news on Tuesdays, we bring in our tech talk guru prey. Craig Peterson has got all kinds of good stuff for us today. Good morning, Craig. How are you, sir? Craig Peterson: Hey, good morning. I'm doing really, really well. You know, living West of the four [00:01:00] 95, it's just a different world. Isn't it? Somehow there's no COVID testing. No nothing. Steve Fourni: We're just a, we're living in our own little world out here. Aren't we? It's unbelievable. Craig Peterson: Yeah, it's unbelievable. And now we've got our own time zones, not their own area code it's yeah, Steve Fourni: yeah. It's we're yeah. We're we might as well just start. Our own form of government will be the people's republic of western mass of, the other two-thirds of the state. thanks for listening to the show, Craig. Craig Peterson: It's a great show. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to Jim coming back. You've been great, Steve. Steve Fourni: Thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm also looking forward to Jim's return. But you got all kinds of good stuff for us today. Let's start with something that I never understood. Why all of a sudden Adobe flash player went from the only thing to use to borderline dangerous. Do not get the Flash upgrade. Do not do this. I don't know what happened there, but maybe you can tell us a little bit about Adobe flash player and what happened. [00:02:00] Craig Peterson: Yeah, I've been warning about it here for a few years out. It wasn't really great because Flash was the first time on the internet that we actually saw things moving and it was so cool. It was so easy to do. I remember when I first author tool to make these flash little animated videos, advertisers started using them. All of a sudden, everything was jumping out at you and moving around. Well, like so many things today, including Zoom, Flash was created in a hurry in a big hurry by people who did not understand the implications of what they were doing. They continued to add features to flash. [00:03:00] So it wasn't just like move this little guy let's animate something. Yeah, it was, well, you know what? We really need to be able to store stuff on the user's computer. So the next time they come to the site, it's going to go faster. You know what? We gotta be able to read this stuff from the user's computer because we wrote it last time. So flash, you guys got to give us access to the person's computer. Oh. We need to be able to use more CPU and memory in order to do all of this stuff. So you had all of this feature creep added on, added on, added on without a real major revision to the security policies, and what we have now is something that's just horrifically insecure. It's kind of like Java it, you know, great language. I have a friend that works on the Java compiler and engine, and it's just evolved to the point where it's not that's useful. And it's very dangerous. In fact, iOS, which is Apple's operating system for iPads, and iPhones 10 years old now has never supported Adobe flash. [00:04:00] And as of the end of this year, Google's Chrome will no longer support it. Firefox doesn't support it anymore. So, you know, you're still using flash where you're a business. You better ditch it quick. Steve Fourni: How about other Adobe products? Like, I mean, we use Adobe audition for all of our audio and recording and editing and stuff. Are other Adobe products besides flash, just as dangerous or was it this sort of flash specific? Craig Peterson: [00:05:00] Really it's Flash specific. Adobe Audition is great. They've got video editors, of course, Photoshop. So many people use and variants of it. They just have the normal security problems that you might find in almost any software that's out there nowadays. Nothing's a hundred percent secure, but Flash is about 90% insecure. That's an overstatement, right? But with the new protocols, if you will, that are in place for the internet and called HTML five. This new programming language, your browser is actually an operating system unto itself. Anything you could do with flash and more, you can now do with it. Just the basics that are supported in every browser that's made today. So you're okay. Most of the rest of the Adobe software, but flash is something that you might not realize it, but you probably have not been using it for a year or more. And if you're an Apple iOS user, you've never used it. Steve Fourni: Yeah, that's interesting. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru. I know you've got quite a list here of stuff that to talk about at all, pretty relevant. especially now that we're working from homes, let's move on to VPNs, which we were, I mean, we all thought we're safe and we're all thought we're doing the right thing. And companies tell us to go home and use the two-factor authentication and do all this stuff. And now maybe it's still sort of vulnerable to, huh? Craig Peterson: [00:06:00]Yeah. I, if you attended my courses, cause I do all of these free classes and pieces of training and I'm doing more and more of them to try and help people out. But if you attended my training on VPN, you really is that in almost all cases, it makes you less secure, then not using a VPN. Well, there's, there's a lot of details here. And if someone has a question I'm more than glad to answer that question for them, they can just drop me an email and I'll definitely help them out. [00:07:00] But now we've got a warning from the national security agency, an agency that never, ever used to produce warnings to people. In fact, they liked to these bugs because they use them to break into. So, you know, governments and businesses that they wanted to spy on foreign businesses supposedly, but the agency, cybersecurity director over at the NSA, by the way, it was launched and put in place by President Trump who mandated that they start helping businesses as opposed to going after them. Just collecting all of our data. They said VPN gateways, in particular, are prone to network scanning brute force attacks, zero-day vulnerabilities. So the bottom line here is network administrators. Yeah, hopefully, you're listening closely right now. Make sure you have a strict traffic filtering rule to limit these people that are coming. I mean, in, on the VPN, right? What ports they can get to the protocols, they can use the IP addresses. They can reach within your network that is going out to these VPN devices because remember VPNs were designed to replace leased lines for businesses. So it connects one network to another network. So you've got somebody working at home. Who's using their home computer on their home network and is now VPNing into your business. You now [00:08:00] have piggybacked to their network onto your network. And so now, who knows what that 16, 18-year-old boys, been going to online, right? All of that data, all of that ransomware, all of that malware can now spread to your business network. So VPNs, huge, huge surety risk. And then those people who use them for home. Home users, get you going. You use these free VPN servers and services. You are actually being spied on even more by using those services than if you never used them in the first place. Steve Fourni: So what, so what are we supposed to, what are we supposed to do then? I mean, there's some, there's some stuff that I, I can't access from home without connecting to the VPN. Like I can't, I can't, you know, share a screen from my work computer from home without VPNing in. Craig Peterson: Yeah, man, again, I can't speak to your network. I'm not sure exactly what they've [00:09:00] done. Maybe they did everything right. Because it is possible to do this stuff. Right. But you cannot do it with even the prosumer technology. You got to get into the enterprise stuff. So, What do you do? Well, most of the time, what you should be looking at are screen applications. So for instance, you might be on your home computer and you might have a machine that you use at the office. So you could use something like log me in, which is a Massachusetts based company here Logmein.com. And so there's a client sitting on. Your computer at work that allows you to drive your work computer. As though you're sitting in front of it, anywhere in the world, it can be controlled and regulated, et cetera. But the idea here is now you don't have a VPN, the stuff that's on your computer at home, on your network, on the other computers at home. It's not going to cause problems at the [00:10:00] office. Bottom line. So using those types of things, like log me in there are many others out there is, is really where you'll see the wind here. Don't just knee jerk. Like so many businesses have done. Don't we're going to do another class on this. Steve, I've convinced myself because this is so important, but don't just do a knee jerk and put it in a VPN in place and say, okay, well, there you go. Now we're all set. Use some of these other services, Microsoft has something they used to call terminal services. Now the remote desktop, what we've done for a lot of clients, we do not expose remote desktop because there are all kinds of security problems with that again and again and again, but, basically, you can just have of a big server that could have 50,000, a hundred thousand people on it. Each has its own individual virtual machines that they can access from anywhere. [00:11:00] Again, getting rid of the need for these VPNs that more often than not according to the national security agency is misconfigured. Steve Fourni: Wow. That's very interesting. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru. And I did want to get to this one too because I do think that in some way, shape or form, we're going to have. Students learning at home, at, and again, I think there's this thought that, Oh, well we're just learning from home. Just go fire up the computer and have at it. but I mean, again, cybersecurity is going to be so big for not only the students that are at work but for. The teachers for the schools themselves, administrators, what, how are, what is the, I guess the dangers, and what are some of the things we need to focus on? If our kids are at home learning and keeping them safe from things like cyber-attacks and the like. Craig Peterson: I was one of the members of the technology committee for back to school for the state. And we came up with a number of guidelines, looking at this and schools have always had trouble with cybersecurity. And the biggest problem they have the budget. Right? It's somebody is [00:12:00] it person in the school district. Hey, here you go, you get to be the cybersecurity czars. So now they struggle. Yay. Come up to speed and get that title and maybe get an extra a dollar per week. And that's very, very difficult. So you're continually hearing about schools getting ransomware. You know on top of all of that, you've got these kids that are hacking in trying to do the Ferris Bueller thing and change their grades. So, you know, my heart goes out to these people just again and again, but there are a lot of shortcomings in this. They just don't have dedicated the funding. They don't have the skilled personnel to continuously vet and improve cybersecurity defenses. You know, when you look at businesses with a thousand employees, they are having to investigate more than 100 cybersecurity incidences a day with a thousand employees. Well, how about a thousand kids? So many of the schools are [00:13:00] saying, well, we'll just use the web, right? Because of the cloud, because the cloud is secure, which of course just isn't true at all. And this pandemic now, Yeah, it has amplified all of these risks and they're using VPNs in many cases, which makes things even worse than that haven't adequately secured data in the platforms. So the FBI has a warning out right now saying K to 12 institutions are vulnerable to cyber-attacks because of limited resources. Yeah. Dedicated to network defense. So we've, we've gotta be careful in the last 30 days alone, Steve we've had more than 4.7. Million malware, incidents in the education industry worldwide. [00:14:00] Wow. Almost 5 million. Yeah. And malware incidents in the last 30 days in school. This is really, really problem they're, ill-equipped, they're ill-trained and I don't know what the real answer to this is because we're. We're not putting the money into the schools and you know what, with all of this Cove and stuff, there's even less money, the schools are worried about making sure the kids can connect online, particularly in more rural areas because they just don't know. I have the bandwidth. They might not have the hardware at home is a nightmare that is coming down at us. Rolling full steam ahead. Steve Fourni: Well, very interesting Craig, somebody to keep an eye on and, people want more information. They can sign up for, the helpful service that you provide free of charge. All they have to do is text. my name Steve that's right. My name that's Steve, with a V to this number Craig Peterson: Eight-five five three eight five five 53. And if that doesn't work, you can just email me ME @craigpeterson.com. Steve Fourni: I love that, Craig. Thanks again for the time. Appreciate it. And, we'll get up with it with a Jim next week, but we appreciate the time and have a great day. Craig Peterson: Take care of Steve. Steve Fourni: Thank you. Take that, take it easy. There goes a Craig Peterson. Good stuff. We'll [00:15:00] have a final word. Craig Peterson: We're going to be kind of doing some of the sneaky stuff here. See how this works with some lives, with some video content and yes, Craig is finally getting into the more digital age and I'm definitely gonna do that VPN. Training again. In fact, I think I'll break it up into a few different pieces of training because I think a lot of people had trouble following some of it. Although we had 95% of the people stay from beginning to end for my VPN training. And that's pretty typical for all of my pieces of training, frankly. Keep an eye out for that because I will be doing that again soon. Go online. If you haven't already Craig peterson.com/subscribe. Take care, everybody. Talk to you later. Bye-bye. ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

In Episode #12, Camille and Tanya discuss how the digital culture is at times, troubling our relationships as coaches, facilitators, and even friends. From racially charged spaces and discussions online, to people prying for gossip in a small town, they explore how we can truly create intimacy online and when it’s better to pick up the phone or meet face to face. Tanya shares an inspiring story about an online exchange that brought tears to her eyes and Camille her concern about trying to do business via text and the cries for intimacy she sees between the zero’s and 1’s. “One of the skills of the new leadership paradigm is helping people become more relational, lean in and understand that some of these compensations are really a reach for intimacy.” - Camille Adair Episode Transcript [00:00:01] Restoring the Culture is hosted by Tanya Taylor, Rubinstein Story mentor, and Camille Adair, family constellation facilitator. [00:00:11] In this podcast, these long term friends explore how stories serve our lives. Their inquiry meanders into the realms of science, theater, health and consciousness, moving the individual and global narratives forward as they draw upon their relationship as the laboratory for their experiments in true. So many of us feel isolated and alone in our deepest longing. Each one of us is necessary rediscovering the truth of our human story and listening to what is calling us forward so that we can restoring the culture together. [00:00:52] Hi, this is Camille. Welcome to Restoring the Culture Today. Tanya and I will be talking about restoring the digital culture. And I'd like to start off with a quote from the book Every day, A Boon to Living Better Together The African Way. [00:01:10] And the last name of the author is spelled N, G, O, M, A and E. A boon to refutes the notion that a person can ever be self-made because we are all interconnected. We should not be fooled by the myth of the self-made individual as no one exists in true isolation. [00:01:35] And this quote seems so fitting for I think it is a myth that when we have an online presence and as we are moving more and more to digital communication one on one and in groups and relying on social media emails, texting and even phone calls, that it's we don't we're not having the in-person experiences as much as we were before. So as someone who spent so much time building and on digital business online, what do you and what are your thoughts about this, Tanya? [00:02:17] Well, first of all, thanks for suggesting this topic today. [00:02:20] You were inspired around this, and I think nothing could be tight, more timely. We're still in the age of Kofod as we're recording this in early June 2020. And. [00:02:35] And right now, you know, people are in the streets. Black lives matters. You know, the whole culture is in an enormous moment of change. [00:02:46] And I have been online pretty seriously for 10 years. [00:02:53] I was an early adopter with a Web site 20 years ago, 19, actually. [00:03:00] But really started selling online about 11 years ago and have gone deep, deep, deep dives into all the social media. And I was attracted to it immediately because what I saw in it was the possibility of what has come to exist, to build a be in touch with a global web of people. So first of all, I so love the piece about community and that none of us are self-made. And the illusion that someone is self-made can really be perpetuated and kind of in a very exploitative way online. It's a kind of. I think about, you know, the guru paradigm and the guru paradigm and this this image of the self-made individual online is actually, I think, something that is shifting and breaking apart at this time. So if we were in like early childhood online for the last tower over many years, feels to me like we're moving into some kind of an adolescence, some kind of a shift or I don't even want to say adolescence, but there's movement. There's maturity happening. And one of the things of this time is that it is about community, that it takes many of us, as it as you and I have talked about a lot lately, about diversity, diversity on the outer and diversity on the inner, and that it takes many skill sets and many gifts of many, many talents and many life experiences to create anything truly meaningful. But I think the thing that I'm noticing in the digital space right now is those that have set themselves up as gurus and not really acknowledging the tremendous amount of energy and beingness and experience supporting them and that are the ones crashing and burning right now. There's there's there's a shift happening development, to be for sure, in the entrepreneurial space, in the online coaching and teaching and facilitation space. And personally, I'm excited about that because it's becoming the opportunities to become more relational and to show the relationships and lead with the relationships rather than with that sort of very patriarchal image of this soul, often white person doing it on my own. [00:05:43] So from a systemic relational standpoint, if that's such a potent image, when you say somebody crashed and burned as a system, how do we hold people? Like how how would you see holding the people that are crashing and burning? Because we're in it. We're a closed container species. Right. And on a closed container planet. And what happens to one person impacts everyone else, right, in some way? [00:06:11] Yeah, well, it's interesting. I'm seeing so much love and compassion happening now in the end. Activism. So I'm part of three different groups online that are about they're specifically white spaces, not segregated spaces, but white spaces that where there is accountability with black people and or other people of color. For us to decolonize ourselves, deconditioned ourselves from the sickness that is white supremacy, that just like patriarchy and capitalism, has been the water we've been swimming in so that the problems or the unconsciousness. So what I'm seeing is people are being challenged. They're being challenged in their power. They're also being called in as much as they're being called out. So right now, I've never seen resources like this. And I want to say, you know, maybe that's my own bias that led with sharing about the white spaces. [00:07:15] There's so many black educators online now teaching white people, you know, people like Rachel Carr, girl who's been, you know, really big in the online space, breaking this apart. [00:07:28] Leila Sayad, who wrote me and White Supremacy. [00:07:32] There's so many resources on the black literary canon. You know, I. [00:07:39] I mean, stuff like James Baldwin and his work and just Mersea by Bryan Stevenson like stuff now and stuff that's more historical. Toni Morrison, it's being shared. There are so many resources available for us to do our work. And so my feeling is the people that are kind of crashing and burning because they were riding in an unconscious way and only centering themselves. It's not even just whiteness alone. It's this it's this kind of entitlement, this kind of elite ism and this kind of guru thing. Because I've seen it in spiritual circles that happens in educational other institutional circles. It's like it's it's a lead us and it's lone wolf. Right? It's a kind of I'm better than everyone. It's elevated. And of course, that goes with a white supremacist narrative. But our male supremacist narrative and patriarchy. [00:08:40] So there people are reaching out. Those people are being called out, but also called in. There is so much community support for people. [00:08:50] Who want to shift and change? Rachel Rogers, who's an incredible entrepreneur and leader. She's having a town hall calling people in to reimagine business. So I think if anybody who's willing to be humble. And come in from a space of I don't know, and I make mistakes all the time, and I'm saying that for myself, I make mistakes. I'm no expert on this. I've been committed to social justice for a long time. I've made so many mistakes and some public mistakes. And the thing is, though, not collapsing into our fragility. So the practice becomes, I'm making mistakes, but I'm living out loud. And my heart is here. Teach me. I'm willing to learn and I'm willing to do the work. So for the crash and burn people, it's like, you know, sometimes some of the more well-known people who have gone down or, you know, their businesses, I think will be impacted forever. And this happened with. I'm thinking of a couple women right now. That happened too recently. But I saw this happen with the men, including like Tony Robbins and the Metoo Movement. And there was a conflict with this woman and, you know, all kinds of things. I think how people survive is going to be are you willing to go low? Are you willing to say, I don't know, I've been unconscious this conditioning, because you do family, ancestral constellation work is not just me. This is this is centuries and centuries and maybe all the way back to millennial millennium of unconscious conditioning. [00:10:25] So how do we go low? [00:10:29] And stay open and stay an inquiry. And for me, my practice is to be listening to black women and learning from black women. [00:10:37] Right now. [00:10:39] It's interesting, I think part of my practice is, you know, I have this background in teaching emotional intelligence, especially in health care. And, you know, one of the big things, you know, that that I learned is that if if you have a difficult issue, you just don't do it on social media. [00:10:56] You don't confront on social media. You don't you don't even do it in a text if it has to do with a sensitive topic or it could impact a relationship. You pick up the phone because it's just we are just more relational when we can hear the intonations in a voice than, you know, there's just so much lost in the visual digital communication realm. [00:11:20] And I think one of the ways that I've been working with it is. [00:11:25] That when I see someone actually doing that, engaging in edgy, sort of confrontational, trying to like work out relationship stuff through email or texting without picking up the phone or being able to meet in person is I think it's actually a way that they're trying to get closer. [00:11:47] Like, it pushes us away. [00:11:50] But this is what I have learned so much in my constellation work, is that these movements in the relational field oftentimes look opposite of what the inner desire is, the inner longing maybe to come closer. And so what do we do? We start to kind of maybe engage in some dissonant behavior to create some dissonance, because at least that's intimate. Right. It's relational. [00:12:17] Yes. And I mean, I've created some dissonant behavior like that. I've had I mean, I've done that by and I've called people out after, say, in the case. I always go to people behind the scenes first. And I do try and have phone conversations, are asked for can we clear the air? Because I think that's the thing. We can't be afraid of that. It's so essential that we go privately first with my own personal business coach, who's one of the people who, you know, I think has had her business impacted negatively in this time. [00:12:50] And hopefully she'll learn from that and, you know, take the invitation that's been given her. But here's the thing. When these it's a paradigm. So when people set themselves up as a guru, I asked to speak with her with a friend of mine last fall, and she didn't allow it. So what happened when all of this came down? It goes out on line when people haven't been available for the relational thing. [00:13:19] And there is a whole very patriarchal way of, quote unquote, leveraging a business. It's very accepted in the entrepreneurial way. And the way a lot of people do it is to pass everything off to their team so that they can remain removed as a rock star. [00:13:38] But they're not a rock star. They're a teacher. They're a coach. [00:13:42] And and then there's no intimacy with your teacher or coach. It's so big. It's such an enterprise. [00:13:50] And I've thought for decades this is problematic in any kind of setup for real teaching, learning, the intimacy is lost. [00:14:00] So when does something become too big to me? I can't even imagine wanting a business where one of my students. I couldn't make time for a 20 minute call to clear the air about something to me. Then it's it's jumped the shark. Right. [00:14:16] It's like the desire for greed and so much money and the the promise six figure seven multiple, six figures, not just six figures, but multiple six figure seven figures, eight figures is very much about moving away from intimacy with clients. And I'm speaking very much. But in the thing you and I both do, we teach clients. I work with people in story. You do Constellation's. We do work together. We do work with other people. [00:14:45] And it's it's it's not so big, you know what I'm saying? That's why that stuff happens online. I think I mean, some many reasons for those things to happen. [00:14:54] But that's one of the reasons is the person is set themselves so far apart that they're not available for a phone call, even if you reach out to them or a short talk. [00:15:05] And this is really you know, you're speaking from the entrepreneurial world. And I can also say that this happens in health care. It happens around policy and politics. You know, and and I do think that this is one of the skills of the new leadership paradise. It's really how to be how to help people become more relational and how to lean in and to recognize some of these compensation's as a reach for intimacy so that we don't personalize everything in a way that we're all then reacting and bumping up against each other. [00:15:40] I had an interesting thing happen the other day, and I was I actually have to say I was pretty proud of myself because it was a it was a reframe of a trigger. [00:15:49] So like I grew up in a very small town. There were 200 people in the town. There were 14 kids in my graduating class. You know, there were. [00:15:59] You know, I think, you know, kindergarten through 12th grade, we were all under the same roof. Two hundred in the whole school. I mean, it was really, you know, there were. It was more than 200 people in there, including the outlying areas. [00:16:11] But it was a tiny. I grew up in a tiny little town. [00:16:14] So you can imagine, you know, part of what happens in those towns is I think it's a it's like it bumps up against the need for differentiation and intimacy, like how do we differentiate and how do we come together? And I think then it can become sort of messy and and those two processes can overlap in ways that creates hardship. Right. So one of the ways that that happens is, is through sort of the got the gossip chain in a small town. [00:16:41] Right. You don't experience the gossip chain in the same way in a large city. You know, there are just so many people. [00:16:50] But I'm back now in Oregon for a time. You know, not in the town I grew up, but in a town close by. It's relatively small. My family is known here. And I went in to a public place the other day and I saw someone who knows me. And I could tell she was really trying to get the dirt on my shoe. [00:17:13] She really she really, you know. [00:17:16] But she did it in a way that was like really like prying. And it was pretty inappropriate relationally. It just I sort of felt violated. [00:17:22] And because of my upbringing, that sort of felt like a trigger. But you know what? I walked away and I thought, you know what? That's care. [00:17:30] Gone sideways. You know, there was like, she wants to connect with me. Right? She's wanting intimacy totally. And this is really the only way that she knows how to do that right now. Because when you gossip, you know, it can feel intimate in the moment. It can feel like connection, a form of connection. But it doesn't call you to be vulnerable because gossip is all about the other two. And so I think we are living in this culture of othering. And I think that othering is what's concerning me about the how we will restorer the digital culture, because I think there are there are parts of our biology and our neurology that are are being challenged and hopefully not atrophying. And sometimes that's an image that comes up for me, is that with all the ways that our brains are responding to different ways of communicating, I almost think it's easier to other because we don't see we can send someone a text and get a reply and we didn't see the look of grief on their face. Yes, yes. You know what I mean? We didn't hear the tone in their voice that told us they were vulnerable. I mean, one thing that happened with this person who I recently had an experience with around gossip was that that helped me to bridge. What maybe she really was reaching for intimacy in and it was coming across as gossip, right? Yes. Was that I actually kind of saw the desperation when this person she was desperate. She was leaning toward me. She wanted something. It felt inappropriate and it felt a bit like a violation. But I also know that I have a sensitivity to that because of how I grew up. And it felt so good to actually feel like I could sort of bring her closer to my own heart and to feel some compassion for her, in a way. [00:19:29] Totally. You know, I think with emotional intelligence, I know I feel like people are practicing that more unbind. So there was one woman yesterday in a new group by men, and it's around people sort of looking at their privilege. And I can be very charged. Right. There's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of fragility. There's a lot of fear and terror about saying the wrong things. Shame could get triggered. I mean, it's a not a safe space. It's a brave space, but not a safe space. And even with conscious intention and she was a little bit I felt like a comment stepping on my toes and I didn't respond. And then she threw in an extra response. And this changed everything for me. She said, I just want to let everyone know in the space that I'm autistic. And so sometimes I come across in a way where it appears that I'm cold and I don't feel that way. But I come off this as cold. And in response, I said, I'm so grateful you shared that I'm a bit ADHD myself and I'm really an introvert. And I said, but with the ADHD, my brain can be moving so fast that I can come across as dismissive. And then she said. Thank you so much for sharing that. And she said, you know, we can have space here for disabilities to differences. Now, nobody's ever used the word about my ADHD disability, but I suffer from it. Privately a lot. And it just brought tears to my eyes. And then I wrote back and I said, when you use that phrase, it just fractures to my eyes and let me have more compassion for myself. So what I want to say is we bonded through the ether's and we've never seen each other's face. I have a profile picture. She doesn't. So she see my face digitally. But when I was I realized was that I've had this certainly on Zoome calls a lot with people. I think our brains are changing and we're adapting as a species. [00:21:43] And if we use our language, if we use language from the heart and slowed down long enough to move past what we're trying so hard to be heard about or like make our point. [00:21:56] And remember to bring that emotional language in. She was she. She went. She was vulnerable first when she she shared about being autistic and how she was perceived that it was the perfect thing to say to open me right up. [00:22:10] I thought, my God, I don't know this woman, but we just have this beautiful, authentic exchange. [00:22:17] It really did bring a tear right there to me. Nobody ever said that to me in my quote unquote, real life. [00:22:24] It's really it's a great example. It's a beautiful story. And I have to admit, I know people sort of make fun of emojis, but I do think emojis were created probably for that reason, because not everything can be conveyed even in language typed language. But so to see in a Mojie, it's like someone saying, here's my intention. I'm saying they're totally but I'm saying it with love or I'm. [00:22:48] And it really had a shorthand. It's a shorthand. [00:22:51] Well, and it's also a symbol. And the brain responds differently to a symbol than it does to written language. And I think it's really an interesting thing to think about, as I was, you know, kind of listening to you. I also had this image of wouldn't it be wonderful if every time we had to send a digital message message, we actually had to do an emotional check in so that prior to the message being sent, we used symbols, symbolic language or color or something that would let people know where we were in the moment. That didn't have anything to do with them. So if somebody is grieving, right. You know, prior to reading their their written message, you know, that they're in this place as they're sending it or somebody may be feeling, you know, particularly expansive as they're writing something. And I think that's the stuff in a way that we're we're missing, you know, because that's a lot of stuff. [00:23:48] It's a time of tremendous innovation. As you said that I thought as soon as you say that it's already manifest somewhere, we'll be doing that. We will be doing that. People are ready. You know, one of the things I'm asking for all my groups now is to insist that everybody show their face. We don't have to have makeup on. You can be in your bathrobe. I don't care. But like having some people show their face and others not. It does lead to intimacy, totally leaning into the conversation, being up close and having your face in rather than be like super pull back, you know, and I see it from other cohorts I've been in and what works and what doesn't. And with my students and all. And it's like taking conscious breaks, but it's a conscious break so that then when you're in the group that, you know, there's presence getting up and stretching whatever. But these emotional things you're talking about, you know, it's part of our work right now, especially as facilitators. You and I are both coaches and facilitators. And we we work intimately with people online to help them do things. This is part of our work to figure out how to create intimacy in the online space. Does it replace real life? No. It's a different experience, though. And how can we make it in some ways? What if it has? I know it has gifts, right? We know it has gifts that the real life space does it so that they both have gifts, they both have a place. But during this time of covert in particular, we've been given this offering with everyone at home for so long to take this as an inquiry like we're having now and to innovate around it. [00:25:34] Yeah, and I just want to say, you know, before we kind of wrap up the conversation, I think if there's anything I would suggest based on my experience and what I've read through research and what I've learned is that if it's sensitive, pick up the phone. [00:25:50] Yeah. And be available for people online to stay available. I reach out now to people who are just Facebook friends for conversations, you know, and. And it's great. And sometimes it's not even a sensitive thing. It's just like, wow, we really have a residence. Why don't we have a phone call? I just did this with this coach who we've been Facebook friends for four years, five years. We like each other a lot. [00:26:12] And I was like, quit, just talk. And she's like, I'm thinking of that for so long. [00:26:16] Let's do it, you know, so that it's not even about the problem. Right. But to take that connection off line when we can. [00:26:24] Well, and I I just sold a house and it was what you know, one of the people that I was interfacing with a lot is a millennial. And it was like. I've never experienced anything like that trying to use to do an entire real estate transaction primarily on text. [00:26:43] And that really was it was it was actually really hard for me. [00:26:46] I really thought this just doesn't feel right. You know, there's a lot of emotion and a lot of personal stuff, you know, behind selling a property, behind turning something, you know, that you've loved and you've lived in from one person to another. And and I thought, you know, I think that's you know, I guess, you know, I am you know, we are old enough now that we can start kind of doing our elder hood stuff. And I want to be really careful that I don't want you know, I don't generalize, you know, the generations. Mm hmm. With that said, I think I do have a concern for the millennials. And I I guess I wonder what they would say, because I do see an increase in trying to navigate big relationship issues through email and text. [00:27:36] And I think, yeah, that's a concern to me and I think I mean, my intuition around this is and different people and different younger people, including a woman who's worked for me. And I see her returning to the older ways. She and her husband and their millennials. They live in Brooklyn. They're very into like cooking clubs and sort of doing things even very retro. And like they have these book, you know, there there is a return. My my feeling about this is people will navigate a different. That's different. Right. Than just navigating stuff in the online space. Is talking about digital communiqu. Yeah. I think that though people will find the limitations and we all do. And then there's is we all have to sort of crash and burn right in our way. And what does and doesn't work around that. But yeah, and I have a lot of faith too. And some of the younger generations I know, they know stuff we don't know. And they're they're going to figure out their intimacy stoutly around it because, of course, there's always consequences for taking anything too far. [00:28:46] I think those are the two things that I'm curious about with the future generations have to do with. [00:28:54] Intimacy and. [00:28:58] Yeah, I think I mean, I think it's it's about it's about intimacy. I'm curious to know how we are evolving as a species in that way. And I could. That's another podcast. [00:29:09] That's another podcast. We have a lot to think about. Yeah, I'd like oh, if I say what I'm really thinking. Right. That we'll go another hour. Oh. Oh, I know what I was going to say. [00:29:21] Right. It's intimacy and instinct. [00:29:25] I'm really curious about. How intimacy and instinct are evolving in the human species. Because I wonder, like how is our instinct impacted when we're not in person so much? I've talked about this before on this podcast, but it was a it was something I read in some research that kind of blew my mind that when we're in a state of grief, yeah, we emit a undetectable scent. And so, I mean, we are human animals. We are biology. Right. And our biology is also an incredible metaphor. And I think we're moving away from our biology. Like that's like the digital is is gonna, you know, take over. [00:30:12] I mean, it is for now anyway. And for me as a story person, storyteller, story coach, it makes me realize that languaging our emotions. It's going to be more important than ever. Like, I like to stretch into vulnerability and to stretch into vulnerability and stretch the way with language, things or even what we're used to languaging. Take another step for the CIA correlational fields. Right. [00:30:41] Be curious, listening, working on not taking things personally at all our questions and leaning in instead of pulling back. [00:30:49] I think it's easy to to pull back and create distance and to other emotional intelligence for the digital age is going to be slightly if you than just emotional did it. Absolutely. So how can you and I it makes me think we needed offline conversation and how can we integrate it even more into our groups? And I agree on teaching it because, you know, this is the calling for it now. I agree with you. That's a great place for us to start wrapping up. Yeah. Thanks for the wonderful conversation. Always. Camille. [00:31:28] Thank you for joining Camille and Tanya for this episode of Restoring the Culture. [00:31:35] If you were inspired, we would deeply appreciate it if you would leave a review on iTunes or any other platform where you heard our podcast. For more ongoing inspiration and support, please join our no cost global Facebook community. Restoring the culture. You can support our podcast by making a donation here. And remember, we are each restoring the culture as we reach story. Our own lives. See you next time.

How would you change your digital marketing spend if you knew with 100% certainty what was driving results? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Joel Maldonado of Path Interactive talks about the attribution modeling work that won Path Interactive the first ever Google Display Innovation Award.  Joel and the team at Path Interactive were working with their client iCIMS to improve the company's ability to understand the performance of its marketing channels, and as part of the project, they built a custom attribution model that tied various software programs iCIMS was using to Google. Using the model, they were able to determine that Google display advertising was actually driving 7x more results than they originally thought. Based on this data, the company increased its spend on Google ads and in conjunction with that, its marketing results. In this episode, Joel breaks down exactly how Path Interactive was able to construct an attribution model that gave iCIMS complete clarity ab out what was driving its marketing results, and showcases why it's so important to get attribution right. Check out the full episode to learn more. Resources from this episode: Check out the Path Interactive website Connect with Joel on LinkedIn Transcript Kathleen (00:01): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Joel Maldonado, who is the Acquisition and Growth Lead for Digital Media at Path Interactive. Welcome Joel, how are you? Joel (00:25): Doing well? How are you? Kathleen (00:26): I'm great. I'm really excited to chat with you. And before we get started, could you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself? What's your background? What do you do at Path and what does the company do? Joel (00:41): Sure. So I'm Joel. My background is I, I I've, I've been in the industry since 2011. So nearly a decade, which makes me feel old. But I went to school at Villanova University. So out of Philly, and kind of moved to New York immediately after, and I've been in the marketing industry ever since. I started working my career in a couple, a couple of startups, Target Spot and My Supermarket. And since 2013, I've been lucky enough to be at Path Interactive for the past seven years. And really, what we do is we're a full service digital agency. So we manage paid media campaigns. We have an SEO service channel. We also have an analytics team that does a lot of like pixel implementation, reporting infrastructure, custom integrations, which we might get into some of that today, as well as conversion rate optimizations. Joel (01:38): We have a creative team that kind of does a couple of functions. They design and build websites, and they also really work as our in house creative to support any media campaigns or social engagements that we have going on. So its really just kind of across the board, a full service digital agency. We also do video production. So kind of covering all of our bases there at Path Interactive. I kind of wear a couple hats. So I am on the paid media team or service channel at Path. So I kind of lead my own team and have my own book of business and clients that I manage and those relationships and those budgets on a monthly basis. But I'm also, I also sit on the leadership team at Path, which really for us, that's more about really guiding the strategic vision of the company over the next couple of years, as well as trying to make sure that we continue to make Path Interactive a better place to work for our employees. So that's something that we do on an ongoing basis every two weeks to really hammer home those two goals. Kathleen (02:49): That's great. And, and I got connected with you because you were doing paid media work for a friend of mine who's head of marketing for a company down in Florida, and she was just so impressed by the work you had done. So immediately I thought, I've got to talk to this guy. That's how I find a lot of my guests, is just hearing about the great work that they're doing, you know, and it's interesting. So you're on the paid media side and within paid media, there's obviously so many different channels. But then the company also does, as you said, all kinds of different things like websites and video and lead generation campaigns, et cetera. You know, one of the, I feel like one of the holy grails for marketers is attribution. At the end of the day, being able to report to the rest of the company, you know, how the dollars they're spending and how the activities they're engaged in are translating into revenue, but it's such a hard problem to solve, especially when you've got activities in all these different areas. And so I know you've done some work around figuring out attribution and you guys have actually won some awards for the work you've done in that area. Is that right? Joel (03:59): Yeah, absolutely. So, and I think it was back 2017 or 2018, we won the very first Google Display Innovation Award for work we've done with iCIMS which is basically, they're a talent acquisition SaaS software company based out of New Jersey. And it's been a company that's grown a lot over the years. And they, they, they handle kind of a few different things within the talent acquisition space. Most of what they do is recruiting, but they also do what's called kind of recruitment marketing. And they, they had some acquisitions along the way. So, so now they have kind of extensions of, of some of their recruiting and talent acquisition products and services. So it's, it's definitely an interesting company that's, you know, they're based in technology. So they kind of understand the need for using technology to not just grow your company, but also improve your products. So I think it was, it made sense that we're able to work closely with them to kind of grow their, their customer base and their marketing budgets. Kathleen (05:04): So can you tell me a little bit about kind of the challenge they came to you with and, and what was the work that you did for them? Joel (05:12): Yeah, so the challenge with iCIMS, what we've been working with them for, I want to say six to seven years now. So they have been a long time client. When we started with them, they, they wanted to kind of grow their overall customer base but they were very focused in, on kind of last click attribution and, and really judging everything that they do based on last click attribution. And at the time they did have a sizeable display budget and based on kind of the current metrics that they were dealing with they, they kind of saw that display was, was almost this kind of wasteful spend. It didn't really lead to opportunities, which is really the way they grow their businesses is through opportunities. And based on their technology and their measurement capabilities at the time, what their numbers were, what they were telling them was that their display spend was, was unprofitable or, or was. So the challenge for us was to, to really understand what was happening with their display spend and, and understand if any of it was impactful and, and how it was impacting some of their search budget or some of their other marketing channels. Joel (06:32): So we knew that we needed to really get better measurement tools in place and better attribution in place to understand how to tweak their display budgets and tactics to really grow their business. Does that make sense? Kathleen (06:46): How did you go about doing that? And, and I mean, what, I guess, if you could get into also the tech stack behind it and let's get into all the gory details. Joel (06:56): Absolutely. Yeah. So we started by building out our own custom integrations. So we have a few tools that we use depending on kind of what our client's needs are. So one of those is Marin software, which is a bid management tool. So we were able to build an integration from the client's CRM, which is Salesforce in this case, to Marin software, which was our bid management tool. So what we did there, was we essentially created a framework where anyone that gets to the client's website is given sort of this unique identifier. It's something that's not PII or personal information, its just, you know, an alpha numeric code or a number that's on there. And what we do with that is, when someone is assigned that number, as soon as they get to the site, when they fill out a lead capture form, we have some hidden fields and some technology behind the lead capture form that will essentially record that number. Joel (08:01): And what that does is, you know, let's say they have Pardot or a HubSpot which, which is what powers their forms, that number will kind of follow them along the sales cycle at all of the different stages. And when it gets to any particular milestone that's important to us, such as opportunity stage, that information is sent from Salesforce back to our Marin software so that we can see from, you know, whether it's a channel level all the way down to the creative and keyword level, what types of creatives, keywords or tactics are really driving opportunities. And that, that was kind of like a phase one of, of how we really started to, to fine tune and grow their customer base. Now, the challenges with this piece was that you know, at, at that time, everything was still a click based model, right? Joel (08:57): So you know, Marin's pixels and things like that, they, they really record all activity on the website, but it's all click based activity. So from there, once we were able to really fine tune their, their search budgets and their display budgets a little bit better from a last click standpoint, but more so less on what drives front end leads or lead captures and really emphasize on what drives opportunities. Then we really start to get an understanding of, of kind of what works on a last click basis. But we knew that, you know, display was still something that, that we needed to tackle and get underneath. And we knew that display is not just going to have an impact on your advertising from a click based standpoint. It's also going to have value from an impression based standpoint where people are seeing those ads and, you know, they visit the website you have through paid search, organic search or even direct. Joel (09:53): And so display really wasn't getting credit for, for some of that. So we still had to find a way to, to understand more of the display side. And, and, you know, the limitations of that first integration weren't gonna allow us to do that. So we started looking elsewhere and we landed on using Google analytics to be able to, to try to tie back impressions to all of that, all that performance. So we kind of use the same methodology in terms of assigning this alphanumeric number to anyone that visits the website and, and using Salesforce to communicate that back to another system. And when we integrated that process with Google analytics, with Google Analytics 360, you are able to see not just click based interactions, but also impression based interactions and how that influences other channels throughout the entire conversion funnel. So, you know, we, we basically essentially created a second custom integration where we upload a, what we call offline data, which is just data that comes from Salesforce, and what happens to someone who reaches a critical milestone or, or stage such as opportunity. And we would load that back into Google analytics, again, marrying the marketing data with the CRM data. And that's when we really started to understand how our displacement was influencing our search span and even organic channels, email, and all the other channels. Yeah. Kathleen (11:28): I have so many questions. I guess the first one is, all of this starts with this unique identifier, from what I understand. So I get the concept of, like, for example, I use HubSpot, and if somebody comes to the site, they fill out a form. I understand the concept of having a hidden field that they don't see, but that you've prepopulated if you will. So when they submit the form, that goes into their contact record. But how are you generating that random number for that field? Joel (12:03): Yeah. So in the past, you know, we kind of just created our own using some, some code and logic. Most recently we've found it's been more efficient to use, what's called a GA Client ID or Client ID. So Google analytics essentially does the same, same thing. You know, when someone gets to the website, they actually try to assign an alpha numeric number so that they can you know, tie back all of these sessions and user behavior through analytics. So we just started to take you back off of, off of that and really use that as a form of tying everything back together. Kathleen (12:40): So is, is the only way to connect those two things like let's say HubSpot and that Google Analytics unique identifier, the only way to do that through a custom integration, or are there any out of the box tools? Joel (12:53): I did, I don't believe there's any out of the box tools that, that I know of. You know, if you think about Google ads that Google ads has like auto tagging, which they use a what's called a GCLID or a Google Click ID, and essentially the very similar alphanumeric number that Google Analytics knows how to kind of decode that and translate that into campaign creatives and keywords and things like that. But our integrations don't just work in the Google universe. They, they work outside of that which, which I think is very beneficial. Kathleen (13:29): So basically anybody coming through from Safari or Firefox or any of any of the different browsers would, you'd be able to accomplish this. Joel (13:42): Yeah, so we, we have the same information for Google as we do Bing, which, most of what we do for iCIMS is, is in Google and Microsoft ads interfaces. But essentially, you can adapt this to Facebook or LinkedIn and other things. And we also get data on their organic search behavior and what they're doing with email and things like that. Kathleen (14:05): So you assign the unique identifier, which basically tells you from the first conversion you're able to identify, okay, this is, this is that particular unique visitor. And then that identifier, if you have a good Google Analytics set up and marketing automation set up that can carry through to all their different activities on the site. So you mentioned click and impression, and I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, because this is not my area of expertise. So I may ask some dumb questions. Like, as a HubSpot user, I know that HubSpot will cookie, as soon as they fill out the form, they're going to get cookied. And so HubSpot will, will follow everything they do on the site. But when you say you're tracking impressions, does that mean you're, you're tracking impressions of the ads and marrying that with impression data from the website? Joel (14:59): So it's not more, it's that impression data, well, I guess more so you're talking about like the visit visitation data from the website. So what with the Google Analytics 360, if you're running Google Display Network and, you know, your display budget through that interface, because the Google ecosystem that will communicate to Google Analytics, if those products are linked together. So if Google ads is linked up with Google Analytics and so even before someone visits the website, you're getting that, that impression data right now, when someone actually visit the website, we're getting that client ID and passing it through. And then marrying that back into Marin in Google Analytics so that we can see okay, this, these opportunities began within with a display impression. They may have converted somewhere else, like direct or paid search, even branded paid search. But it all started with a display impression. Kathleen (16:02): Wow. And so is the only reason that you're able to tie this together in a completely holistic way that is, is it because you're using that Google Analytics identifier and carrying that through all the way, and that's why you can marry everything they do before they get to the site with what they do on the site, as well as what they do after they leave the site. Joel (16:25): Yeah. The, the identifier is definitely the key piece. And even if it's not, you know, within the Google interface you should you'll with that identifier, you'll be able to tie back probably the extra piece where if you're running your display advertising through Google, then you'll also get the impression data, which is going to be helpful. Kathleen (16:49): Wow. So this is like crazy amazing for marketers, because it sounds like you're able to really see every single touch that you have with this person. But I imagine for somebody who's listening, it would might be kind of creepy for a customer to know that a company can see all of that. Joel (17:15): Yeah, definitely the, the kind of the age that we're living in. But it's, it's critical for marketers to, to and advertisers to understand particularly around their, their display budgets and how that is influencing other things. I forget, I think it was Brad Wanamaker who said, you know, like 50% of my ad budget is wasted. I just don't know which half. So this is something that really allows us to understand what half or whatever the percentage is, is wasteful, so that we can really move that budget and reallocate to things that we know are working and driving opportunity value. Kathleen (17:56): So you set this all up, you have all the data coming in. I'm really curious to know what you learned. Like, were there any big surprises that came out of the data? Joel (18:07): Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So if you look at only a click based model about only 4% of opportunities are given credit to display but with, with this revamped attribution model, we actually saw that about a third, a third, really 33% of opportunities contained display impression, somewhere along that conversion path. And, and at least a quarter of those, 25% actually began with a display impression. So we understood that display has incredible value, and that's kind of how we were able to, to grow their budgets and bring in more leads, bring in more opportunities and essentially help them grow their business. Kathleen (18:56): So am I right? That, that display actually accounted for somewhere between four and six times, the opportunities that you were originally thinking it accounted for based on the initial dataset? Joel (19:11): Right? It's like seven and a half. Kathleen (19:14): Wow. Joel (19:14): A five X increase from what we thought and sort of a, a good cycle. And you get some momentum from that because once you understand the parts of display that are driving those opportunities, you can continue to reinvest and re funnel, kind of hitting on all gears there. Kathleen (19:39): So did that cause them to change their budgets? I would. I mean, if it were me, I would think I'd want to increase my budgets Joel (19:50): Kathleen, we'll see increases of anywhere from 25 to 35% year over year in terms of, you know, from where we started to three, four years later. Kathleen (20:03): Wow. That's amazing. So that, that's the project correct? That you won the award from Google for? Joel (20:13): Yeah, absolutely. Kathleen (20:17): So is that, that obviously required a certain amount of custom coding in order to put in place. And, and somebody who has the, either the internal resources to be able to do that, or, you know, can work with an agency, could replicate that kind of of a setup. But do you have any advice for somebody that maybe doesn't have access to that, like as, are there other ways of improving attribution that are, that maybe are a little bit simpler or more DIY? Joel (20:49): Yeah. So with iCIMS, we actually use three different integrations. Two are custom built. One was the first one that I talked about, which was Marin. So Google ads has had a Salesforce integration for probably maybe two to three years now. And, and it's definitely evolved over that time period. So it is a lot easier nowadays to integrate your, your Google ads in a way that doesn't take a ton of development work. Probably just, you know, five to 10 new hours of, of development work as far as like coding and things like that, to take your Google click ID and make sure that gets assigned in a hidden field to all the contacts and things like that. And to be communicated back to Google ads. And so, you know, if your main, if your main, a driver of performance or your main source of budget is Google ads that's kind of a no brainer to do well. If you're, if you know, CRM, Salesforce is your CRM and you want to get some milestone data based on kind of what you're seeing now, that is still a last click model or, or I should say a click based model. So you're not necessarily going to get the impression value, but at least you'll, you'll understand pretty easily what the opportunity value is of whatever you're, you're managing and Google ads Kathleen (22:39): That is so fascinating. You know, and how, if somebody was to come to you guys and say, I want to set this up for myself for my own marketing, is that, you know, how long does that take to get set up? Is it, I, and I, I won't say how much does it cost, but like, can you give me an order of magnitude? Is this something that's accessible to most companies or is it crazy expensive to do? Joel (23:02): Yeah, I think it is accessible to most companies. What we typically do is a lot of these integrations have just so many different factors based on what your tech stack is and your sales cycle and how everything works. So we typically start with, you know, what kind of technology do you use? How does your sales process work? We want to find out as much information as possible about sort of, you know, how your business operates and what your, your, your sales funnel looks like. And then we start to put the pieces together of, all right, you know, maybe you don't need this level of sophistication. You just need something that's a little bit more standard and XYZ is going to work for you. So there's going to be things that, that you don't need. There's going to be things that, that you might need, or maybe you, you kind of build it into a three year plan of our, I need this level of sophisticated laid out. So that in year three, I have you know, more insight into what could be more innovative tactics that we'll be able to do. But I just can't tackle that right now. So it definitely you want to understand kind of what your situation is and plan around that. Kathleen (24:28): That's so interesting. All right, switching gears. I have two questions I always ask my audience or my guests. And I'm curious to know what you have to say. The first one is, we're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a particular company or individual that you have seen, that's really killing it with inbound marketing right now? Joel (24:54): Yeah actually, I mean, to me, the first one when that comes to mind is iCIMs. I think they, they've been a great client and partner for us and in terms of the things that we've wanted to, to implement it and integrate and kind of what our vision was. So they've always, they've always been kind of willing to, to innovate and even outside of what we do, they have a good sales process and having good measurement and things like that. Mmm. And their, their level of sophistication has definitely evolved over the years. So with these integrations, we actually get down to some of the different company size segments that are important to them. So they have kind of company or sometimes different industries. And with all this technology, we've been able to not just look at this one big bucket and say, all right we're driving X amount of overall opportunities, but now we're to the level of looking at opportunities based on company size and industry and all these different factors that impact the growth of their business. So for, for them to kind of really understand that and, and work with us to, to implement those mechanisms, to be able to see that on all of that information on such a granular level to really plan out, you know, what their growth, that's kind of why I would think iCIMS is pretty much the first company that comes to mind. Kathleen (26:29): I'll definitely have to check them out. And then the second question is, digital marketing is changing so quickly. And marketers, whenever I talk to them, they're always saying I can't keep up. There's so much new stuff. So how do you personally keep yourself educated and kind of on the cutting edge of all of this? Joel (26:48): Yeah. I mean, there's a few publications that I read such as like Search Engine Land, PPC Hero, things like that. I'm also interested in SEO, you know, which is not my expertise, but I'm curious. So just learning about it in general. So at Path, we have a pretty great SEO lead, her name is Lily Ray. She's always out there speaking. She's very active on Twitter, speaks at a lot of conferences and things like that. So I kind of look to her for, for a lot of SEO specific information. But I think at the end of the day you know, we best learn by, by doing so if, if you're in the platforms every day and really trying to understand how they work, I think over time you get a better understanding of how, how you can innovate from what you have available to you. Joel (27:49): And I always think it's important, especially in today's world, like 2020 has been the craziest time. If you're a company that is innovating and, and testing new things they're, they're, they're not going to be wasted and that will soften the impact of, of something like a pandemic or you know, all of the, the sort of like the racial justice protests and things that are going on in the world. Like, there's, there's going to be ways that like no one, no one can plan or prepare for something this crazy to happen. But I think if you always are testing and innovating you'll be able to, to find these, these little trinkets of, of areas that are gonna work well for you, because what we've found as marketers is things are always going to change what you've relied on as your bread and butter in the past, historically, who knows if that's going to be available next year. So why not test now and, and really future-proof and build that infrastructure for something that you might need to pivot to before you actually need to do it. Kathleen (29:00): Yeah, that's a great point. And it has been just an insane year, from wildfires in Australia to pandemics all over the world, to racial you know, protesting, to murder hornets. It's just crazy. So you can't plan for any of that. Joel (29:19): Right. And even now, you know, it was this July, Facebook boycott, that's going to impact potentially a lot of businesses, especially if the majority of your, your marketing spend is on Facebook. So it's going to be really tough, challenging if, if you know, a lot of advertisers boycott, where do you put budget and how do you continue to grow your business without a source of, of inventory that potentially was one of your biggest sources? Kathleen (29:52): Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is so fascinating. If somebody wants to learn more about what you're talking about, or check out some information on the campaign that led you to the award, or connect with you and ask a question, what's the best way for them to connect with you online? Joel (30:09): Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn. The Path Interactive website does have a case study kind of detailing and really streamlining the conversation that we had today about iCIMS. So that's kind of on our website you know, but feel free to visit pathinteractive.com and go fill out a lead form and get in touch with one of our salespeople. So we can talk about how to partner and improve your business. Kathleen (30:37): Awesome. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes, and if you're listening and you learned something new, or like what you heard, I would love it if you would head to Apple Podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review so that other people can find us and hear great content, like the stuff that Joel is sharing. And of course, if you know somebody else doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Joel. Joel (31:07): Absolutely. Appreciate it.

Resource Links:CaseFuel Website (http://casefuel.com/)Get your copy of “Legal Marketing Fastlane” (https://www.amazon.com/Legal-Marketing-Fastlane-Roadmap-Generating-ebook/dp/B06X9B76QX)Google makes its money from online advertisers. So it’s safe to assume the changes they make will benefit advertisers. Right?It turns out that isn’t always the case. While the big platforms do need to maintain a good advertiser experience overall, occasionally decisions are made where individual advertisers are thrown under the bus in changes that are likely to move the stock price up.You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, so to speak. But with the right knowledge you can make sure your shell stays intact!Is Google really looking out for the little guy? Join me in today’s podcast as we dive into the dark side of Google AdWords.We’ll be talking about:Revisiting “Legal Marketing Fastlane” [00:30]Google AdWords and its search traffic changes: It’s just business [00:58]Facebook and its acquisitions as a platform for selling impressions [04:16]Notes on working with Google from the Legal Marketing Fastlane [07:07]Why Google is not looking out for the little guy [07:55]The issues with Google’s Search Network and landing pages [08:35]Why the “Search Network with Display Select” setting is not the best campaign setting there is [10:26]About Our Host:Jan Roos is the CEO of CaseFuel agency, helping law firms generate revenue through pay per click advertising. He is a legal marketing expert and is the author of the bestselling book, “Legal Marketing Fastlane.” It talks about PPC lead generation, a technique used to generate client leads for big and small practices.If you liked this episode, please don’t forget to subscribe, tune in, and share this podcast. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

What's it like to be the only Black family in a White church? How can we spot hidden racism, and root it out before it undermines our church? In what ways do we subconsciously marginalize voices of color on Sundays? In the episode we talk to George and Jontelle Gibson, Black parents and business owners who have spent the majority of their lives in White churches. (One of those churches was the congregation that Amber and I served at for 10 years. Surely we were never complicit in any racism, right? Right?) It's a raw and timely conversation, and we hope it helps you to create a church that reflects the diversity of heaven! -- New Church Hustle is a podcast designed to highlight the big faith and hard work behind every thriving church.

*SONGLIST* - 1) Laurie LeBlanc - The Bigger The Better, 2) Laurie LeBlanc - When It's Right It's Right, 3) Laurie LeBlanc - That's What i Love About Us, 4) Laurie LeBlanc - Belle of the Ball, 5) Laurie LeBlanc - Where Gone Girls Go, 6) Laurie LeBlanc - I'm In Love, 7) BONUS: Dahmnait Doyle & Stuart Cameron - 'Til I Gain Control Again. ENJOY!      

Today Dannie and Caitlyn are talking with Lindsey Aleson We believe in accessible content and that anyone who wants to learn from this content should be able to. In order to support this, we've had every episode of Season 4 transcribed. The transcriptions are available at the bottom of every episode blog post. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS:Some of the best tools to use in your business.How to combine your creativity with structured systems.The does and don'ts to help non-process people with processes.GET MORE: Website | Instagram FOLLOW YOUR HOSTS: D Website | D Instagram // C Website | C Instagram Get the Side Hustle Starter Kit Episode Transcript Caitlyn Allen: [00:00:21] Hey. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the side hustle gal podcast. We are so excited today because we have Lindsey Aleson of blog. Me lovely. Uh, Lindsey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Lindsey Aleson: [00:00:34] Yeah, so I am a graphic and web designer and tech strategist. Um, I've been doing this for I guess almost four years now, which is crazy. To think about. Think about Um so yeah so I just love helping a fellow female entrepreneurs in the online space with their design and tech and making it not as scary as they think it is . Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:00:53] I love that I've been stalking your website and that you said that you love cats Harry Potter and Disney Yes Um so let's do a round Robin What house are you and Caitlyn say yours too afterwards. Lindsey Aleson: [00:01:06] Oh I'm between Raven Claw in Gryffindor it depends what day I take the test Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:01:10] I love that I'm pretty much a hardcore Slitherin I don't think I've ever gotten anything other than Slitherin but that's super sad because now like Slithering is the trendy house to be in it Hi Sorry Caitlyn Allen: [00:01:25] Okay I'm pretty sure I'm a Hufflepuff uh because I'm lactose intolerant That's funny He's never heard that song at like I don't know what it's like Ron Weasley Oh the parody doesn't somebody say like I'm lactose intolerant I'm a Hufflepuff It's not from Oh anyways no I'm pretty sure I'm a Griffin door I'm actually but yeah I feel like I remember something being like what is it I'm going to Google it while we're having this discussion because I feel like that was That was kind of a funny I believe you Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:02:06] Um so now that we have the important question out of the way and we all can secretly psychoanalyze one another based out of what house we're in Lindsay I'm super curious in how you got started. Lindsey Aleson: [00:02:18] Yeah So it actually goes like way back to when I was 11 years old So I've always been into well my grandpa was an aerospace engineer so I've always been into like building stuff And he surprised me on my 11th birthday with parts of a computer just laid out on the pool table So we bought my first computer And shortly after that I discovered kind of the online space And that was when like Neo pets was big and yeah all those like drag and drop doll websites So I was probably the only 11 or 12 year old with like her own domain and the drag and dropped all website And I just taught myself how to code by like looking at the bet like the source code and using notepad which Is dreadful And I'm so happy that that's not how you have to code anymore Mmm But yeah so then I just kind of went through it and then all through my like college career I kept on switching stuff It took me probably twice as long to get through college because I couldn't decide on a major because it kept on switching But um I decided on journalism and because I love that could do the design and the marketing and kind of pull everything together Um and then I just kinda got your first real job And it was fun at first but I realized I got bored super easy cause you're like stuck in a box So yeah I kind of just went from there and I was kind of into blogging since 2010 so what does that like 10 years now So it's just Yeah it's a lot I just love it I love everything to do with the online space and I've been in it for probably more than half of my life probably most of my life not considering I'm 32. Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:03:48] I love that because you have this secret STEM influenced but still explored like the traditional things that girls do if we go by gender norms but then also the traditional like early two thousands internet behavior things as well So I love that it all weave together into what you do today I am also wondering so you have a pretty girly website and you had those like engineering influences How do you think those two plate pieces play together Lindsey Aleson: [00:04:23] Yeah so I think it comes down into really how I I work and some are really big systems and processes person and um I have a lot of contract positions or I do a lot of client work and it's really hard for me to like if somebody says to do something and I realized like it's not the best way or it's wrong So I always try to leave something better than when I started And I feel that like Analyzing and like always getting like the best way to do something And like the techie really stems from that Especially cause I used to sit on my grandpa's lap all the time when we were talking about like he worked on the space station so I like had the plans who had fixed cars or fix like the electrical socket and stuff which I don't remember any of this now It's been like years but it's just having like making sure it's done right Um and then I am just a typical girl so I liked that I can Do it my way and still focus on what is probably still considered a primarily male driven industry like the tech and and stuff so. Caitlyn Allen: [00:05:21] That's awesome So what all have you I mean you said that you've been in the entrepreneurial world for quite a while What all have you dabbled in Lindsey Aleson: [00:05:31] A lot So um when I first started um I thought I I had a corporate job at the time and I wanted to really focus on web design Right It had been I had built websites for myself but then I had like a really crappy client and I was just like Oh this is just too much Like I don't want to do this I did like just graphic design And so I slowly did that and I kind of took the leap and I had put my job away too soon It was for like issues at the job though like that required it not like I was actually ready and I kind of made it work for a year Mmm But I realized I was so interested in tech so I was doing a lot of tech stuff But through this journey in life still consider myself like a side hustler And I still have so many contract positions right now so it's not like fully my business Um But I have done everything from websites and graphic designs like eBooks and webinars slides and social media graphics to setting up CRM systems to migrate um like email platforms um to figuring out why websites don't work which is always which is always fun So I feel like I've done so much stuff and I just learned I feel like a new system Oh it's on a weekly basis or how to like a new way to do stuff on a weekly basis and I just love it cause I can't do this in the corporate world because we're stuck in a box and you can't grow and expand I feel like. Caitlyn Allen: [00:06:46] I yes I completely or I can relate to that completely I wasn't in the corporate world but I was in the nonprofit world and it just it felt like the same thing over and over there It's so old school what works is what works and you don't want to change any of that And it's just so Boring of course Um what are your favorite systems to use in business.Lindsey Aleson: [00:07:12] I love this question because I am a tool and systems girl so I love click up So for my project management tool also it's kind of like us on in Trello how to baby but as like on steroids It is amazing and I love it for email marketing I love ConvertKit Um let's see For I'm a WordPress person So definitely prefer WordPress or Squarespace or any of the other options that I'm not even going to name Mmm And then I liked Dubsado and tailwind and plannerly like anything that makes your job easier and systematize and save you time I love Mmm Caitlyn Allen: [00:07:49] Ooh I might have to come to you for some click up uh questions Because I use a sauna All of my clients besides one use a sauna and the client that uses click up we're still not 100% sure how to use click up properly So might be coming to you first Some questions Do you have like a YouTube channel or anything like that where you um offer advice for any of those systems .Lindsey Aleson: [00:08:17] Not yet It is in the plans I don't think it will be up by the time this episode airs but I do have a click up course that'll give you access to I don't have the link candy on me but you guys can look at it in the show notes I'm getting ready to revamp it Because click up keeps on making all of these changes and like I've been meaning to update it for a while now but they just keep on making new changes So I'm like waiting but you will absolutely love it if you just have to change your way of thinking a little bit but it'll make so much more sense once you get in it and yeah I love pickup Caitlyn Allen: [00:08:46] Oh my gosh I'm such a systems person too Like that's what I do in my business is I set up systems and processes for my business owners So that's so much fun to hear different people's perspectives because the software or the the things that you're using are Not what I suggest Uh and Danny either I think we all use very different platforms Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:09:09] So I was going to jump in and say from both of you systems people I am still a pen and paper moleskin notebook Slash Google doc person Caitlin tried to get me on Asana I hated it Um I tried to use Trello Hated it I tried Monday Hated it I hate Monday Caitlyn Allen: [00:09:30] I tried San Summa I can'tDannie Lynn Fountain: [00:09:32] I did too Hated it I would love your advice to people who are not process people From both like this is a question both of you can answer but for people who are not process people and or like me not documented process people what would you recommend I guess Lindsey Aleson: [00:09:53] I would have been first So you do have to start somewhere so it's totally okay if you don't have anything yet And it is a learning curve So I know people say there's not really a wrong project management tool but I feel there are certain things that our product management tool should have and there are so many platforms out there that don't have it So like Asana is my second choice I was on a sauna before I moved to um to click up So you just wants to make sure you like hit like does it have sub tasks Do you have due dates Do you have like dependencies Um or just if you're on a team there are just certain things you need to hit make sure but I always start with pen and paper so I love pen and paper You can't see it here but I have a whole stack of on my couch I'll turn I'll turn my camera so you guys can see But it's just like books and papers and stuff on my and tables I a pen and paper and blood person I always map it out on pen and paper first and then I move it into a system because you get So bogged down or maybe confused when you're trying a new system that you don't set it up properly Like I got into click up first and I was like well crap this isn't set up right And I had to like wipe it and redo it from the ground up So start where you are and don't overwhelm yourself and just realize that they're going to start to grow But you also need to realize the importance of it Because if you want to save yourself time or on a team member you do need that stuff on But also don't get hard on yourself because Sometimes people use it as a crutch Well I don't have systems so I can't grow my team yet or Oh I need to focus on this but then they don't actually get the other work done so it's like that fine line in me too So I know that's not like a full straight answer but it's just you need to learn a balance I kind of know it's a Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:11:32] it's a good answer because I think I feel like I probably drive Katelyn crazy because of the way that we manage our podcast is a Google sheet And it has the episodes and then on the far right of the Google she it's literally my shorthand for every step from upload to live with checkboxes in X in a Google sheet that you just clicked Lindsey Aleson: [00:11:54] It's giving me anxiety Right now. Caitlyn Allen: [00:11:56] It's actually honestly it's really not that bad compared to like some systems I've seen like at least there's no system Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:12:06] Schedule is S C H and for show notes is SN So like if you don't know me this shorthand just looks like fricking jibberish. Lindsey Aleson: [00:12:16] There's still something though So that's a start It's not like you're going at it Here's like the questions or here's like the episode and whatever and then free for all right Yeah I have everything mapped out because I have a podcast a joint podcast as well Um so we have it all mapped and click up Who does what I'm obviously the tech girl so I do the editing and I do the graphics and you know like setting all that stuff up and she does a show note So we like have it all mapped out Mmm And it helps but I'm also in click up probably It's always up on mine It's always up on my um computer um whenever I'm working So yeah it's just that's the habit you need to get into It was so hard at first when I started with the sauna but I realized that you just need to have it up and you just need to like now it's second nature I don't open up my computer without having like a Caitlyn Allen: [00:13:05] Yes I completely agree Um and I would second everything that you say The first thing I tell my clients is write out the process on a piece of paper and send me a picture of it Like because that's the only way that I'm going to know what your process actually is Um and if you do it write it write it out Like that's going to be the easiest way for us to move forward figuring out how to do it And I mean If you are nervous about creating a system or an SOP um guys it's only gonna help you like stay on track with all of the things Like I promise you it's worth it to start systematizing your business I swear Anyways I could talk about this for days So could I what what has surprised you or what have you learned about yourself as you've became an entrepreneur Lindsey Aleson: [00:13:56] Yeah That I'm actually way more capable of stuff than I realized So it's like not to be cocky but I always know are smart Cause honestly I put my first computer I taught myself how to code but just being in the corporate world they like again they kind of put you in the box So it's like I would ask to do stuff and it's like Oh no this department handles it Or Oh no we outsource this So it's like I couldn't grow So I think that's why I was drawn to this cause it was a challenge And I realized that with contract positions like I tend to come in as like cleaning up somebody else's message I haven't found like a fun term for that and I don't always want to be like your contractor but I like go in and clean up message and it's like you just get assigned stuff and like Oh crap now I need to figure out what like what to do And it's amazing what you can accomplish when you put your mind to it and you're people like believe in you and you're open to doing it So I have done stuff I never thought I would do or be able to figure out And it is just Yeah And I've gotten more so I'm an introvert and I am shy as well so I know they're two different things but I've gotten more comfortable in my own skin and yeah so like I'm horrible at in-person stuff unless I know it's like entrepreneurs but like on these podcasts even though these are videos or like I have my own podcast and we do summit I'm like all hyped up and I can like chat forever but I talked to like people in real life that have nothing to do with this and I'm just like a wall Flower I'd rather be like with a pet if there's like animals there are with the kids Caitlyn Allen: [00:15:21] That's so funny Dannie are you an introvert or an extrovert ?Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:15:24] So every time I take the NBTI test um my first letter changes So I'm always N F J but the E or the I changes constantly so I'm probably what they call an ambivert Caitlyn Allen: [00:15:43] That's interesting Yeah I'm also an introvert as well and Z so I can totally relate to that though Like most people would not call me an introvert It's super funny Um but I think that is something that you can really play on as an entrepreneur too is are those strengths or weaknesses I think a lot of people are like Oh you're an introvert That's a weakness And I'm like No I can do stuff online that you guys like That word was never possible or that I never even thought I could do and do it very well even though I'm an introvert So Lindsey Aleson: [00:16:19] Cause you like to be alone and yes press and normally during those times I spend learning something new or working on my own stuff or reading or so it's just it's how you like to recharge So people always think introvert means shy or not a people person Well that is so not that is so not the case That's why I always like to say I'm an introvert and I'm shy because it's two different things But yeah like you guys can't see I'm here with my cat like my idea of a good night and is watching Harry Potter or reading depending what mood I'm in and snuggling with my cats on the couch Caitlyn Allen: [00:16:51] That's awesome Yeah I I'm definitely an introvert and I am shy but I'm very good at faking it that I'm not Um so let's walk through a typical day for you What does Are you a morning person Are you an evening person and what does your like system look like for the day?Lindsey Aleson: [00:17:12] So I'm definitely an evening person I'm definitely not a morning person I actually don't even think I got up until like 10 today which is a little bit later than I try So I normally get up at like 9:30 10 I don't take any calls before 10 which I love having that flexibility besides one contract position I had like a 7:00 AM meeting on Tuesdays which kills me But um then I normally hop into I normally talk about my contract work first So I rotate I have I think four contract positions So it's a lot all in different product management system tools So you know I just I just tackle one at a time Um I usually forget to eat lunch Um cause I have just so busy working Um but yeah I pretty much worked from the time I get up till the time I got to sleep And right now it is because I have so many contract positions Um but normally when the boyfriend gets home we go have dinner at my mom's because she lives in the same apartment complex So which is nice Um and he works super early so he also wants to go to bed early which kills me because I like Set in bed with my mind racing But I yeah I pretty much just take it one step at a time one focus at a time and I have it all mapped out and click up So even for me like that's my system So I literally have check this product management tool for this company check this product management tool for this company so I can check stuff off my list while still being one one minded Because like I am using so many tools right now It is crazy Caitlyn Allen: [00:18:40] Do you ever get overwhelmed with the amount of tools or the amount of cleanup projects that you have and how have you figured out how to streamline that Lindsey Aleson: [00:18:50] Um I do So one of the main things because I am in so many tools is the main thing that I did was I do map it out and click up so I don't forget So right And what I've learned is so I'm sure we're very similar probably have a bunch of tabs up I felt an online entrepreneur thing So what I do is all like Say one one team I'm on uses Monday and I really don't like it but I'm used to it cause it's been like a year now But it's like I just take it out into its own tab and I have my time tracker and the Monday and just all of that stuff So I try to keep it as One track focus as possible Um and then the main thing is if I realize I'm getting overwhelmed is to take days off Mmm So I live in Southern California so I love going to Disneyland So I already have some days plan to like go like on February 2nd I know this won't air yet We're going to go on the new star Wars ride Um that just opened up that I heard is amazing Um but just kind of plan those in or realize if you need to take a break especially Like for me again being introverted when there's so many people interaction or so overwhelmed sometimes I just need to relax that it's Oh okay I feel we beat ourselves up and that's when more stress happens and it's taken me a while to realize that And most of the time if you miss like something small it's not the end of the world Like unless somebody is like literally in a launch but like if something's slightly delayed and you need to take care of your muscle or physical health 100% okay And most clients don't even care as long as you're up front and don't just like disappear and then be like Oh Hey like I you know fell off the face of the earth and didn't get back to you Um so I think that's how That's how I keep one track minded And if I realize that I'm getting stressed or tired cause I know my body signs to take that time off Um because you can't do that again in the corporate world you can't do that I can't be like Whoa you know I feeling stressed today I can't go into work Right So it's a benefit that you have working for yourself and I think you need to take advantage of it Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:20:44] I love both of these tips I want to dive into the second one but before my brain loses it for the first one um I'm going to share a tool the tool Um there's this tool called work Kona For Google Chrome which I live and die by It lets you create tab groupings and then save the grouping of tabs and you can like one click open the tab collection So I have tab collections by client and I can click on the client and all of the websites whatever that I use for that client open when I click it And that has so minimized my like Tab overdose syndrome That's helpful I have not heard of that tool It's a lifesaver and it defaults to your Google Chrome homepage So like when you open Chrome you land on where Kona and then you choose what tab collection you want to start with Caitlyn Allen: [00:21:40] Yo the pro version is only $6 Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:21:44] You don't even need the pro version if you don't have a ton of collections Caitlyn Allen: [00:21:49] Yeah Just so it's like 10 workspaces for free like yeah Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:21:52] that's plenty Oh my gosh Well anyway to the second point though I think this is huge I think in a weird way Caitlin I think you would agree season four is becoming the season of mental health And I think that as therapy and mental health and anxiety become more acceptable conversations in the broader culture I think the entrepreneurs space is finally talking about this too and the things that you shared like taking a day off taking a step back are huge Even your comment about one track mind I think can actually be A solution here Like what if we Pomodoro our entire day and like not the 25 minute Pomodoros but what if we like one track mind one thing at a time our entire day we've like gotten so sucked into this Multitasking is everything But there was a study done that actually read about working at Google that you lose like 10 IQ points for every task you're doing simultaneously or something like that I love those tasks Caitlyn Allen: [00:23:00] Task switching not good Lindsey Aleson: [00:23:03] Yeah Kills it Kills your productivity and then you make mistakes or stuff's not done Right Um so yeah that's that's pretty much what I do I don't do it in the 25 minutes but I do that exactly Is I Work through my day in those chunks and it really saves me time because people are like well your pickup looks so like busy I'm like but if you take it at once one step at a time like figure out what you need to work on for the day and one step at a time Mmm It is It's huge It's huge Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:23:30] So I want to wrap up with a question that I hope will be helpful to those that are listening You exist at this intersection of design and tech and both of those pieces are meant to simplify our lives Design visually simplifies our life tech like Logistically simplifies our life What one tip would you give entrepreneurs that you've learned from working in this space literally since you were 11 Um to try and simplify their lives Lindsey Aleson: [00:23:59] So I think the big thing is you don't have to do everything yourself and you probably shut it so Um I realized that when people are just starting out though they like to do stuff themselves cause they don't have the budget But not doing it yourself doesn't mean you have to hire somebody necessarily Um like if you're not a designer don't go make your own logo Just go buy a premade one and they're like 25 bucks on creative market right Because nothing harms you worse Then poor design or a poor system that is horrible for a user or a client Um so you don't that doesn't mean you have to go spend I dunno $1,000 on a professional like Branding and I don't even know I don't do branding Um so I don't know what it's like running for but I mean you really shouldn't when you're starting out either though So just take it one step at a time Um again you want to people want to jump to the finish line on everything but it takes steps and just Stay in the step you're in and get the help you need but that doesn't always mean you have to drop thousands and thousands of dollars on something Caitlyn Allen: [00:25:07] Yes Start where you are and then grow But you do not have to like spend all this money when you first start out just because you think that you need to know all the things I yeah I totally Mmm I think that that is a great uh A great thing that many side hustlers need to like take into account is like you don't have to have a website to start your business Like I don't know why people assume that you have to have a website and you have to have all the social media platforms and you have to Whatever It's like you don't have to have a system in place Just do the thing start doing the thing and then grow from there Exactly Oh my gosh this was such a great episode because I feel like you and I are very very similar Um awesome So where can we find you on the interwebs Lindsey Aleson: [00:25:57] Yes So I am in the process of a rebrand but I think it'll still be blogged me lovely.com when this episode goes live Um so yeah or and all the social media is just blogged me Lovely If it changes before the show notes I'll let you ladies know but um that is where you can find me online Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:26:17] Amazing Thank you so much for hanging out with us today Lindsey Aleson: [00:26:20] Yes thank you for having me It was

As Google's first engineering director, Alberto Savoia led the team that launched Google's revolutionary AdWords project. After founding two startups, he returned to Google in 2008 and he assumed the role of "Innovation Agitator," developing trainings and workshops to catalyze smart, impactful creation within the company. Drawing on his book "The Right It," he begins with the premise that at least 80 percent of innovations fail, even if competently executed. He discusses how to reframe the central challenge of innovation as a question not of skill or technology, but of market demand: Will anyone actually care? Savoia shares strategies for winning the fight against failure, by using a rapid-prototyping technique he calls "pretotyping."

At the top of the hour, host Cyrus Webb welcomes back author Paul Hutchins to discuss what led him to writing and what he has learned about our universe while writing THE SECRET DOORWAY. At 30 min. past the hour, Webb welcomes back author Twana Bond Jones (When It's Right It's Right) to talk about her publishing company's newest project.