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In this episode, Gary and Naren discuss the dreaded last-minute cancellations and appointment no shows. Gary goes into detail on how to create an ASAP list that will help you reduce these last-minute cancellations and no shows in your practice. Highlights: Introduction to today’s topic > 01:00 Learn about the upcoming MBA > 01:27 How to handle patients who are always canceling or not showing up > 05:19 Learn more about the ASAP list > 13:28 Learn more about the VIP list > 14:15 How to building your ASAP list > 16:15 Come join the I love Dentistry community > 20:06 Resources: REGISTER NOW JOIN THE TRIBE Podcast Transcript Naren: Hello everyone. Welcome to another awesome episode of the less insurance dependence podcast show. This is Naren, your co-host. Today we have an amazing exciting topic for you. This was something that many, many, people wrote in and asked Gary about. We called it your ASAP list. Gary has spent a lot of time over the last 40 years in his coaching work as well as in his life smiles dental care practice figuring out how to handle patients who have a pattern of cancellations and no-shows. So, this is going to be a treat. Before I get into the podcast, I have an announcement. We have MBA coming up on July 17th and 24th, 4 p.m. To 8 p.m. Eastern. I wanted to first talk to Gary about what happened with the MBA he just got done yesterday. So, Gary good evening. How are you this evening? Gary: Hey Naren, I'm doing great. As we're recording this, I'm sort of feeling the afterglow of having just finished our June one-day thriving dentist MBA. Now this we needed to retitle the name because we didn't do it in one day. We actually took three evenings. We want to try to present different formats to try to be accommodating to folks’ schedules and so we did it. A nine-hour program. We did three hours on Tuesday night, three hours on Wednesday night, and three hours on Thursday night. And man, that was fun we had so much engagement by our attendees. One of the things we do in that thriving dentist MBA workshop, the workshop is all about the ten elements of a thriving practice. We actually turn the workshop into a coaching experience and we do that two ways. We do it through exercises. So, each one of the elements, each one of them has an exercise. A simple exercise but it's something for our doctors and office managers to do in the workshop that will allow them to take the information and apply it to their practice and the second thing we do is throughout the entire course they're invited to submit questions and then we have specific time to have Q and A sessions to answer their questions and I know you were there the entire time there and helping me moderate it but man the engagement level was amazing and I feel like we are turning out ambassadors to go out and apply these ten elements in their practice and I felt really good about it and it was such a great experience. I can't wait till the one in July. Now July is a little bit different. Again, we're experimenting with formats. Same content but we're going to do it in two sessions and two four-hour sessions. So, four hours on Friday the 17th of July and then the following Friday we're going to complete the one-day workshop and that should be convenient for some and I just want to consider this an invitation to come join. If one of the elements of course is becoming less insurance dependent. So, if you listen to this podcast, you're going to absolutely treasure that one-day MBA because a big part of it is all about successfully reducing insurance dependence. Naren: Thank you so much Gary for that and I do think you're also doing a big service because you're not only offering this to people who don't know anything about the 24 elements and sort of 10 elements in the 24 systems but you extended it to your coaching clients. So, they now can train every one of their team members especially the office managers with these fundamental principles of how to run thriving practice. So, kudos to you for doing that and I really appreciate it, Gary! Gary: Man, it was fun and July we'll have a blast with that. So, if you like attending CE where you get lots of content and you also have a great time, I think you're going to love this. So, come join us and the pricing, because we're doing these live streams, we don't have airline expenses, we don't have hotel expenses, we don't have catering expenses and so we have cut the price to the bone and it's very affordable. I think it's probably the most affordable way to get six hours of CE that you could possibly take. So come join us. Naren: Let's jump in Gary. This is a question that I’ve seen maybe tens and tens of times maybe even a hundred times. How to handle patients who have a pattern of cancellations and no-shows? Gary: Naren, I would love to tell you that I don't know what you're talking about. We don't have cancellations and no-shows in life smiles and I would not be telling the truth if I said that. So, hey every prize, so if you feel like, oh my gosh we're just getting deluge with cancellation no-shows and that might not be true right now, right now, in the COVID era where you've been shut down for 7 10 12 weeks. We're not experiencing a high percentage of cancellation and no-shows and if we do, we've got a call list as long as our arm. So to get people in, but think back to February maybe beginning of March and if you are pulling your hair out because of cancellation and no-shows just know you've got a whole lot of company. I mean every practice has that, and I wanted to come up with some strategy to deal with it because it's a pattern that keeps happening and it's like what you do and we came up with something that  has worked brilliantly in our practice. It works brilliantly in our client base. Every time I share this with their clients their eyes get as big as saucers, they're like oh my gosh why did I not think of that, why did not I think of that. So Naren, is it okay if I dive right in? Naren: Yes please Gary: So, let's begin by recognizing that you have to start looking for patterns. If you have a patient that has routinely shown up for their appointments, I mean their pattern is that they're routinely showing up and then they have an aberration and they call you in the morning for a hygiene appointment and say, Carly, I'm  so sorry I have an afternoon appointment with Kelly this afternoon for hygiene and I'm not going to be able to make it. I just got called into an emergency meeting at work. I am so sorry I know I'm supposed to give you 48 hours’ notice and I just I didn't know until now. If I don't go to that meeting, I'm losing my job, now Naren can we recognize that that's different than a pattern of cancellation and no-shows? Naren: Absolutely Gary, yes! Gary: That's different and I think common sense for all of our listeners prevails in a situation like that. Say of course, thank you for the courtesy of the call we understand and then we're going to scramble to fill it, but now what do we do with George and I'm going to make it a male patient because it's more likely to be a male patient Naren: Yeah Gary: I hate to say it but it is, and I am going to make this example, George, and when we look at George’s record, he shows up maybe 20% of the time that we've made appointments for him. If you look at it in Reverse Naren: can I share, I'm going to put myself on the line here and Gary: Okay George, go ahead George Naren: so, we all have mindsets, right? We run our lives based on our mindsets, the way we think. In my mind if I have to choose between a meeting with Gary and my dental appointment, I am choosing my meeting with Gary. I'm being honest, right? Gary: I will take that as a compliment, Naren. Unless you were a life smiles patient and then oh man I get it Naren: So my problem is they typically ask me to book 6 months in advance. I don't know when I'm going to have these meetings that I really want to have because I have fun in it, I enjoy it. So usually what I tell my dental office is please call me a couple of weeks before. That way I can definitely make sure that I find a time when and I don't tell this to them when I don't have those fun meetings like the meetings I have with Gary, so that way it's easier for me because a week or two ahead of time all my meetings with you and now the other stuff that I enjoy is already in my calendar. Six months ago, if I asked you Gary when are we going to talk six months from now you won't be able to tell me. So, I'm one of those patients Gary who won't show up if you book an appointment with me six months in advance. I'm being honest. Gary: Well let's go back to fundamentals, Naren. Here's the fundamental on that one Naren: Yeah Gary: and I want to raise my hand and say Mia culpa I’ve been part of the problem on this and let me explain what I mean. In 1982, my goodness thirty-eight years ago, I was the guy that stood up and said nobody should leave your office without making their next hygiene appoint, their next hygiene appointment, and I started teaching that in 1980 and I said they're right in front of you and back then we didn't have in computers and so we had to get the book out the big book the big appointment  book where the scheduling team I would have to flip the pages six months out and she'd make you an appointment and I was the guy who said nobody leaves your office without making their next appointment and I taught that from 1982 to 2007, okay? Do the math on that pretty quickly. I believe that's 25 years. Naren: Right Gary: 1982 to 2007 and then I experienced in my own practice the mistake of that and how I discovered it was, I have to tell the story because it is imprinted on my mind. My office manager Stacy, we had a seven o'clock appointment and the seven o'clock appointment was Charlie Raggle. I know I'm violating HIPAA but Charlie won't be listening to this, so I think it's okay. Charlie's a football coach for Chaparral High School and he was there at seven o'clock in hygiene, and I was excited I happened to be in the office that day and I was excited that Charlie was coming in because I wanted to talk to him about setting up our are coming mouthguard project that we're going to be doing for the team and anyway 7 o'clock rolls around. No Charlie 7.05 rolls around no Charlie. 7:10 no Charlie and I walk up front and in my most emotionally intelligent manner I say Stacy, where's Charlie? She said Gary, I knew he wasn't coming. I said well Stacy if you knew he wasn't coming how come you made the appointment and without missing a beat she said because you told me to and I like aha I did guilty as charged because I told Stacy nobody leaves our office without making their next appointment. She said Gary Charlie, single guy, football coach. What does he care about? He cares about football. Naren: It's like me like I have other things that I have fun with I would rather go to the other stuff if I have a choice Gary: So, she said Gary I knew he wasn't coming and right then I said this is a teachable moment for Gary. Hey Stacy let's look at our digital schedule. Let's look later in the week. This was a Monday. Who else isn't coming? And she went right through the list and she identified about 10 hygiene patients that were highly likely of not coming, okay? Naren: And knew who these people are Gary: She knew it like I mean her instincts were amazing. So right then I made a shift I said quit reappointing everybody and what we learned after the fact that about 90% of the patients in any practice, you can appoint in advance whether it be three months, four months, for six months. But about 10% again that could vary your practice it could be 92% you for your point it could be 85 but it's in that range, it's in that range. In the 90% rate but for those 10% don't pound a square peg in a round hole. Don't pound a square peg in a round hole. Don't try to fit near in with your noted priorities and I'm not going to try to pound you and you, I’ll call you the square peg. I'm not going to pound the square peg in the round hole Naren: Right! Gary: Now that's one but now let's go to this ASAP list. Now let's play Naren and you're the guy that historically 20% of the time, you've shown up. So, here's what we do with you. We say Carly will say to you, hey Naren and this is after you've broken another appointment. We've no showdown another one, Carly will say Naren, I can't make appointments for you anymore because when I make appointments you don't show up. Now Carly has the best temperament tone of voice style to do this and nobody has ever felt insulted. They always say oh I know Carly I'm such a knucklehead, I know I know and then Carly says I get it, Naren, here's what we're to do. I'm going to put you on my VIP list. Now just I’ll come off the role playing for a minute. It's actually not the VIP list it's actually the what list and I won't say it because we want to keep our clean lyrics rating on iTunes but it's the other list that starts with a four-letter word list. But we are not going to tell you, we're going to say Naren, I'm going to put you, we care about you and we know if we see on a regular basis, we accomplish two things. We keep you as healthy as possible and reduce your future dental expenses. So, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to put you on my VIP list. Here's what that means: let me make sure I have your current cell number. Oh, yep that's it, okay. Now I'm going to shoot you a text now and again. It'll be the text message, it'll be a text message, it'll be the same day. It might be an hour from now, it might be two hours, it might be five hours from now. But I'm going to send you a text message and the text message is basically going to say hey we can see you for a hygiene appointment at two o'clock. If you want it, text me back. Now understand I’ve got a few other VIPs. Now they're not quite as good a VIP as you Naren, but I’ve got a few other VIPs. So, if you want it to respond back quickly and so now, I want to knock on wood, Naren. So, my desk is made out of wood. I’m knocking on wood because I don't want to curse myself here. As of this very moment that we're recording this since we started doing that if we have at least an hour advan10ce notice at least an hour advance notice, we are 100% at filling that opening appointment later in the day. Now someday we will be able to say and notice I said at least no no's because this doesn't work for a no-show and here's why because by the time we know you're not coming and get the message out you don't have time to get there for the hygiene appointment, got it? Naren: Yep Gary: But this applies for the patients that will give you a courtesy of a call and many will. Then we can use the ASAP list. Now here's how you build your ASAP list. I want to be firm about this. It should have no more than 12 people on the list, 12, because if you send it to too many it will be overwhelming and if you send it to too few you might not be successful with it so 12 is the number, we tested it. 12 is the number. Half of those people, maybe six of them, will be people that would like to be seen sooner. They told you oh if someone was up call me, let me know. The other half are these chronic cancels or no showers. Now when we started this I had no idea if this was going to work but i've been surprised pleasantly at how often the people that fill those appointments are look at out of the chronic counsellors a no-shows because they're like you they're good people they just are not organized enough where their priorities aren't sorted enough to be able to keep an appointment three four six months in advance but meanwhile you're sitting, now this would be you, Naren because you're busy but maybe this guy George is sitting at Starbucks. He gets a text message from Carly, Hey George turns out we can see this afternoon or two. Let me know if you want it. Hey this works George text’s back and we found, I can't say a hundred percent but most of the time they are really loyal about keeping that appointment later in the day because it works for them Naren: Yeah Gary: That's how we've been able to fill those short notice cancellations, very simple. It's done with a group text that goes out and it goes out to those twelve people and it simply says hey we can see you this afternoon or if we know the hydrogen hey Kelly can see you this afternoon at two o'clock thought of you if you want this appointment text me back. Now, many times will two or three people want the appointment? We'll go to the first one but we get two or three and then we respond back to the other two or three and say too slow next time be quicker with fingers, okay? I will keep you in my list and it's a great way to handle those short notice cancellations. Now Naren: I have a quick question, Gary. See I hate people when they cancel on me and I hate to not show for appointments. So, I ain't on me. I'm very outspoken. So I literally fess up and say what, let's mark something six months in advance but knowing me can you do me a favor can you call me a couple of weeks I had just because I know when I booked something couple of weeks ahead I am rock-solid but it's just a little too advanced for me to kind of like for example there might be an even that I want to go a lot of things can happen in six months right. So, I don't know if I'm breaking the system. Is this kind of one of those crazy buckets that? Gary: You might be an exception to that because really, I want this to be the same day. Naren: Same day, okay! Gary: So you are probably not the right situation for this but I'm surprised at how many of our what we're calling VIP list patients Naren: Show up Gary: sure love this system. They respond back and it just so happens to work for them and because we've got 12, it is going to 12 people. Naren: Right Gary: You have got a 100 percent chance in finding one, all I need is one. Naren: one exactly Gary: Now again some details on this. You want to send out by text. You want to send it to 12 people and the message is just a simple straightforward message that says, it turns out Kelly can see us this afternoon at 3:00 thought of you, text me back if you want it, and that has quite literally solved our short notice cancellation problem in hygiene. It's quite literally solved it. Hey as we're kind of coming to the finish line here, Naren I want to share something with their listeners but I want to share with our listeners. We have an I love dentistry community, Facebook community. If you're listening to this and you're not part of the I Love dentistry Facebook community, let me invite you to come join us. It's a private Facebook group. It's doctors and office managers and team members. Come join us and you can go to I Love Dentistry on Facebook and you have to request admittance it's a closed group just say you're a listener to the less insurance dependence podcast show. We will let you in. We will give you a secret key and will let you in and we'd love to have you join us. It's a group. It's all about what the name says it's people that absolutely love dentistry and we're there as a supportive community, lift one another up to share information and it's a place to go to recharge your batteries when you need that and to connect with an amazing group of people that'll be your new best friends but recently one of our community members posted something very cool. Naren you'll remember that she said hey Gary, hey Naren I just over the weekend binge listened to a whole bunch of less insurance dependence podcasts and I can't wait to apply this in my practice and so she discovered and I don't know if she's a new podcast listener or something but she discovered that she could download all of the episodes. As this one's coming out, I think this one might be episode 91. 91 or 92 something like that, but all of those episodes can be downloaded and she kind of did like a Netflix binge listening exercise and she had all kinds of cool information she's going to plan her practice. So if you haven't done this, know that you can download all of the episodes, they're free, and it's our way to help you successfully reduce insurance dependents. We're creating a grassroots movement. I'm all about preserving private practice dentistry and we want you to be part of that and please, if you haven't done it already download any of the episodes, they're all free and maybe you could be one of those binge listeners as well. Well listen. Thank you, guys thanks for, joining us we appreciate each and every one of our listeners here on the less insurance dependence podcast. Thanks so much. If you haven't done so, there are three things you can do to support our work here. You can share less insurance dependence with your friends. Maybe some of your friends don't know about this. Share it with them. Secondly you can jump on iTunes under less insurance dependence and write us a review. That'll help more dentists find us. By the way, for those of you that have written recent reviews, thank you so much and then the third thing you can do is you can hit subscribe. If you hit subscribe you can do that on iTunes or Google Play. That means that every Thursday when we upload a new episode, it'll be automatically uploaded for your listening device, for your listening convenience. Thank you so i'll add note let me simply say thanks we consider your time to be precious and I hope we've shared some useful information with you today.

As some freedom returns to society following COVID-19, don’t miss out on potential opportunities to implement property management growth strategies. Today’s guests are Mark and Anne Lackey from HireSmart Virtual Assistants (VAs). Mark and Anne are broker-owners that manage almost 200 doors in Atlanta. You’ll Learn... [03:47] Trends: Property management pivots and changes during economic downturns. [07:10] Hire Virtually: Save money, get better employees, and increase productivity. [08:22] Wake Up: Don’t resist remote work; realize office space may be unnecessary. [11:14] DIY vs. Professionally Managed: Ramp up sales/funnels to serve customers. [15:26] Problems are always opportunities to grow business by offering solutions. [21:11] Customer Service: Don’t disconnect. Focus/follow up for retention/satisfaction. [27:02] Professionalism: Set expectations. Don’t badmouth landlords via vendors. [28:29] BDM: Do you need a business development manager? [31:33] Time, Energy, and Effort: Resources required to rent properties to tenants. {32:28] Referrals grow businesses. No referrals represents customer care problem. [35:29] Gamechanger: Save time and money to get things done or do more yourself?. [38:30] Wrong Person, Role, Tool, Time, and Money: Hire based on owner’s needs. [40:57] Off-the-Shelf vs. Customization: How to hire and build teams takes time. [46:50] Remote Challenges: Communication, operations, and management problems. [48:22] Key Performance Indicators (KPIs): Get work done based on expectations. [50:15] Think, Invest, HireSmart: Know avatar to grow property management business. Tweetables Opportunities are available to make sales and buy, manage, and invest in more properties. You don’t have to have your employees in an office. You don’t even have to have an office anymore. Property managers are immune to guilt and the heroes of the rental industry. Referrals grow businesses. No referrals represent customer care problems. Resources HireSmart Virtual Assistants (VAs) DGS 69: HireSmart Virtual Assistants with Anne Lackey NARPM Lehman Brothers Airbnb DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. My guests today are Mark and Anne Lackey from HireSmart. Welcome you two. Anne: Hey, good to see you. It's been a while. Mark: Hey, it's good to see you. Jason: It's good to have you back. I noticed you're displaying that beautiful logo in the background. Mark: Isn't that wonderful? Anne: Yes, that is of course a DoorGrow special. They helped us with that on our website. Mark: The logo, the renaming, all of that was a DoorGrow impression that was right for us and is great for our clients. Jason: Yeah, I like it. Cool. We're going to be talking about property management growth strategies after COVID-19. This Coronavirus is just starting to clean itself up. I just rode a road trip from Pennsylvania to Austin over the course of multiple days. People were not wearing masks anymore. We were eating at restaurants. It was awesome. It was like we are back to having freedom again. Most places are open here in Austin. I went to the hardware store yesterday, though. Everyone was wearing masks and I felt like I was in trouble. I thought we were over this already, but apparently not at Home Depot. Anne: Some places are, some places aren’t. Jason: I think the national chains and the national stores have to accommodate the lowest common denominator nationally. They got rules in place for everything. What are we chatting about today? Anne: First of all, I want to make sure everybody understands we are broker-owners ourselves. We manage doors in Atlanta. Mike: Nearly 200 doors in Atlanta since 2005 for other people and for ourselves, since 2001. Anne: We've been talking a lot to our friends who are in the property management business. We are, of course, NARPM members, affiliates, and affinity partners with them. We hear a lot around the nation of different things. Just like your trip from Pennsylvania. You saw different parts of the country where things were more open than others, so we want to talk about a couple of different things as we see them. For property managers that are thinking what's the next thing. I want to back up just a little bit and talk a little bit about historical trends and changes. Mark, why don't you get us started on that? Mark: This will show my age. That's one thing if I've mentioned this. In the 70s, we had lines to get gas. Not everybody out there remembers that, but there was an oil shortage. There was a gas shortage and at that point, everybody said we're going to run out of oil in a couple of years. It was a crisis, so out of that came what? We got into solar energy, more on to hydroelectric. Things pivoted, things changed. In the 80s, the savings and loans went down. Things pivoted on how we got mortgages. The dot-com buzz, the 90s, the tech blow up. All those things and what most everybody remembers is the meltdown that we had in the economy and mortgage market that occurred just 10–12 years ago. At that point, it required pivoting and Anne and I are really good at our business about looking to see what the trends are going to be. What's going to change and how to pivot. That's what we want to talk about today. It's not the end of the world like everybody said, March 15th or whatever date it was when everybody went to hibernation. It's like, it's the end of the world. Anne: Nobody's going to pay their rent. Mark: We thought that 12 years ago when Lehman Brothers shut their doors. It all seems like it's the end of the world, but it's not. It's an opportunity. It's learning to pivot. Look at where the puck is going. Anne: We wanted to talk about some of the trends that we see and the opportunities that property managers should be looking at in their business. You obviously don't hop on every trend and everything that comes along, but it is always good to put it in perspective. Mark, let's talk about some of the trends that we've seen in real estate in general. We're going to talk about how you can take advantage of that. Mark: In the last few months, we had property managers and friends that were investors that had Airbnb. They were making 5–10 times the amount of rent I was off of a property. Suddenly, they made nothing because all the bookings shut down. They’re looking. A lot of them said hey, let's sell. Let's go long term. A lot of things changed there. Through them and through those changes of people not having as much disposable income at this point because there's a slow down in jobs, second homes aren’t popular right now. Two, with all the laws that are coming about with the changes to protect the renters that are coming out of state legislators and the national, there's a lot of change and as property managers, we keep apprise to that. But these DIY (do-it-yourself) landlords don't. So, we're going to talk about some opportunities to make sales, to get some additional properties, to manage some opportunities for investing, too, if you're into that area. Jason: When COVID hit and it was March, March was brutal for us at DoorGrow. Sales stopped. Every property manager just tightens their purse strings, freaking out, there's this cash crunch. We experienced a serious cash crunch so we had to get lean. I think a lot of businesses had to get lean and in the long run, that is a really healthy thing for business. Everyone was trimming the fat and [...] was effective. Anne: We saw that in HireSmart because now everybody is a virtual employee. This is a perfect time to write stuff. People that have been hesitant to hire virtually have been in our doors now because they are like, wow, we can save some money. We can have better employees. We can have different strategies and approaches. Now, it was no longer important because it wasn't allowed to have people come into the office. Actually for us on HireSmart, it actually expanded our business. Mark: There was resistance before from property managers that wanted to walk down the hall and lean over Joe or Joan's shoulder and see what they’re doing, see what they're working on—literally, not figuratively—to be there, to have that conversation face-to-face. They were very hesitant about working and they didn't have the resources to figure out how to work remotely. With what’s come out of COVID-19 has become the realization that you don't have to have your employees at an office. You don't even have an office anymore. Jason: I've known this for well over a decade. Interesting to see that mass transition of people realizing they can use tools like Zoom and move away from having somebody right there in their office. I did some polls online asking people during this. I asked how many people would renew their business lease at the end of the term and a lot of them said they're going to, at the very least, downsize, maybe to a smaller office base, or they may even not renew. I also did some polling on what people have noticed as a result of people working from home. Some of my clients were saying that they've noticed that they were surprised that their team members became more productive. They're getting more done. I guess because there are fewer interruptions they were saying. There are fewer distractions. Maybe they're more comfortable. But some of my team members are doing better. I have heard some people say I hate it. My kids are there all the time. I'm going crazy. But in general, I think the world has to wake up and realize when you have to get work done, you can try this. Then they tried this and they're like, hey, this works. Why are we spending so much money on this brick and mortar location that is outrageously expensive to have all these people in it when we can eliminate that crazy expense and it's unnecessary. Mike: Yeah. It was shocking, like you, we immediately drew into our shell in March, and let's save. We don't know what's going to happen. People are going to let people go. But in April and May, we had the most requests for information about our services. The most orders we've had in five years. Jason: I'll bet. Anne: Without any [...]. That's the funny part for us [...] Mike: We’re not traveling. Anne: It's been interesting and we do a lot of community teaching and speaking even online. We always have to help people understand what opportunities are there. A lot of things that we're promoting or that we're seeing right now, specifically in property management, is now’s a great time to ramp up your sales and funnels. Again, because the DIY's are so lost. We already know that there are so many DIY landlords compared to professionally managed. Mike: Eighty percent of the US are do-it-yourself landlords. That's a lot of opportunity. Anne: That's a lot of opportunity. I know you talk a lot about that, but how do you reach them? How do you engage with them? How do you attract them? Of course, they outgrow a platform, obviously, as a key component to that, which is wonderful, but you have to have the human-to-human or human automation to back it up. I think where we're coming to as a society is if you don't have a physical office where people can walk in anymore because you're closing your doors. We've had a closed-door policy for 19 years. I think people are very surprised that we've never let anybody in our office ever. Mike: We have a small office of three. Anne: We've never let anybody in our office even when we had seven people in our office, we didn't have people in our office because it's a distraction, that interruption. What happens is you need to serve your customers. You need to be talking to them. You need to be serving them. Now, the residents and owners don't just want to be served 9–5. We're seeing that they want answers seven o'clock at night, eight o'clock at night when they're online. When they have questions they would like to have some interactions with someone from your office. How do you do that cost-effectively? Of course, we have the solution. A full-time dedicated virtual employee that works as the second shift or the split shift is there to take care of chat. They're there to answer the questions and help people guide them on applications. Mike: Then guide the people that are coming in to bring you properties to manage. Anne: Right, and to talk to owners about how I work with you. Because here's what's going on in the marketplace. Again, in a lot of places, you do have people that aren't able to pay their rent right now because they have lost their jobs. Do you have owners that are concerned about what I do? How do I do this? We've had an increase in our inquiries for property management recently as well because they just don't know the rules. They don't know the laws. Mike: It's not the time to withdraw. We're all sheltered in our business in place, too, and when we withdrew that opportunity to find new business went away. The companies, the far-sighted future thunking property managers, business owners, and the brokers that are now looking at making some investments. Not just sitting on their dollars, but actually making some investments in the right people, the right tools, business development people to help grow the business, doing outreaches. One thing we were talking about just the other day was—we haven't done this yet—we should have a seminar that we invite all the DIY landlords to share with them all the fears of all the new laws that have come out. [...]. We have that seminar and some of them are going to come out and say, okay, now I can do things differently because I have information on what I can and can't do. A lot of them are going to come out and say I just can't do this anymore. I'm tired of doing it. I'm going to hire—in case—us because we've been in that seminar. Making those types of investments, and granted that those seminars aren't always live, they're maybe at this point virtual but reaching out to those. Those are the ways now to grow your business for tomorrow because over the next six months until we get to the end of this year, there's opportunity abound for forward-thinking. Jason: That's what problems do. Problems are always opportunities. Let's talk about the problem. Here are some of the things I noticed. I won't say who it is, but I got a call from one of my business coaches and he has rental properties. He was like, what do you see in the market place right now because I got a small portfolio of properties and only 50% of them are paying rent. I said at least 98% of most of the rent is being collected by my clients. That's what I'm hearing. Also, what I noticed happening is my clients are saying that their owners were calling them and saying if tenants don't want to pay rent this month, we'll let them not pay rent. They're like no, they're going to pay rent. The thing is people felt guilty. They're almost ashamed but feel guilty, but property managers, you guys are over that [...]. You guys are completely over. You've heard all the excuses. You've heard all the stories. Some residents right now, due to the unemployment benefits and stuff that are going around, are making more money, especially the low rent markets. They're making more money than when they were working. But some of them are still trying to use the excuse that they need to not pay rent or whatever. The news kind of made it look like that. It made it look like people trying to collect rent are evil, bad, sick, or wrong. A lot of homeowners are just feeling guilty. Property managers are immune to guilt. Anne: That's because we've heard it all. Jason: We've heard it all. We heard all the stories, the excuses. You know how to help people. You know what programs are available because you guys are on top of this stuff. You guys aren't having trouble collecting the rent. In general, I haven't heard anyone in the single-family residential space or even multi-family having real trouble collecting rent. Rents have gone down just a little bit. You got people that most would have heard it's the same people that we're always troubled paying rent. We just couldn't evict them, but that's coming. Mike: Your coach needs to reach out to a professional manager. You see that, but he doesn't. Seminars, webinars, something. Jason: They don’t see the problem. That's the challenge I've always experienced in DoorGrow. I'm selling a solution to a problem that most people can't see. They can't see the leaks on their website. They can't see the challenges that their branding is hurting word of mouth. I have to educate people to see the problem. The same thing is what you're talking about. If you can create the gap and show the contrast between what challenges and problems they're dealing with and what they could be experiencing, what successes your clients are having, they're going to see this gap and that gap is what creates pain. People want to solve pain. People want a pain killer, not a vitamin. People will pay even more money to get out of pain. They want a solution, but they don't know a lot of them that there's a solution out there. I do think there is a massive opportunity. There's no scarcity in property management. There's no shortage of people that are in pain or have problems or challenges they are dealing with. Not only that, but I think property managers can hold their heads up high because good property managers, I really do believe as I said before, can change the world. There are millions of renters. Even here on my own property, I'm renting (I just moved to Austin), my kids were without a water heater for two weeks. The landlord sent out two different plumbers because he didn't like the feedback that the 13-year-old water heater should be replaced even though the pilot kept going out. I didn't even know my kids were taking cold showers because they got it before me and they can't get on Xbox until they take their showers, so they 're just doing it. All they're thinking about is can I get on the Xbox now? I'm like, yes, go ahead. But then my daughter's like, I haven't taken a shower in four days because the shower's freezing. I didn't know this and the younger ones, I went to them. That doesn't make sense because they've been taking their baths and their showers. I went to my son, Hudson, and I'm like, how's the shower been lately? He's like, cold. I'm like, what? Why didn't you tell me? Mike: It’s virtually a summer, right? Jason: Then I said to my daughter, she likes taking baths, you've been taking baths? She's like, Yeah. How are your baths been? She's like, they're really cold. I'm like, what? But you guys protect families. You guys also protect owners. You guys are like the middle person that makes everything okay and you take care of people. It lowers the pressure and noise. Property managers even do things like increasing the number of pets that families are able to have because you guys recognize that usually, it’s the kids that are causing more damage than the animals. [...] to get more rent because of pets. There are so many benefits to property management that positively impact families, homes, and lives. You guys are really the heroes of the rental industry. Property managers are the heroes of the rental industry. Mike: And unlike your property manager there that evidently has trouble with customer service. Jason: He's not the property manager, technically. He's just a landlord who doesn't want to do anything. Anne: You got a DIYer. Mike: Yeah, a DIYer. Anne: Sounds like a great lead. Mike: But that gets into the consideration of customer service. As property managers, we worried over the years about customer service to our owners but we haven't worried as much about customer service to our tenants. For retention and to continue to have tenants that want to refer people in, raising your level of customer service at this time specifically because I know I ordered something that didn't come and it was then delivered to Valentine, Nebraska instead of here where I am in Georgia, so I sent a response online and I got an auto-reply that says call this number. I call the number and it says we're too busy. We're not answering phones now. Just send an email. Customer service has failed specifically right now. Anne: I'll actually tell you something that we did on our property manager which I think has really impacted our renewals and we are getting increases in rent even now. Mike: On everyone. Anne: Let's just talk about it. Again, people pay for when they feel taken care of. One of the biggest gaps that we saw, this is probably two years ago, in our business was exactly what you're talking about. Tenant isn't taken care of, it's taking too long, the contractor is giving all kinds of excuses as to why they can't get there, tenant's going here, contractors going here. There's this big disconnect. Our virtual employee, Bonnie, is charged literally with every day every work order that comes in, she's calling the vendor and saying vendor, did you get it? Because we want to make sure it didn't get— Mike: Lost. You know how emails are. Anne: That's the first thing. Then the next day, she's calling the resident and saying resident, we assigned your work order to contractor B. Have you heard from him? Well, no. What happened? Jason: That's better than being ghosted and then eventually not having your calls answered, then eventually maybe getting a text or response half a week later. Anne: She says okay, you haven't heard from contractor B. Here's contractor B's information. We have already approved them to go out. Then she calls contractor B and she says contractor B, I heard that you haven't connected. Why haven't you connected? Oh, they haven't returned my call. Okay, I just got off the phone with them. They are available. Call them and they are expecting your call. She closes that loop, that hand-off because we assume contractor B is doing his job and we assume tenants are never wrong, they never change their phone numbers or anything else. Mike: Then the contractor goes out like he did to you and assesses the work. Many times there's not a follow-up, so what does Bonnie do then? Anne: Bonnie, as soon as she gets the date it was supposed to be scheduled from either the tenant or the contractor B, she follows up the next day and says my understanding is that contractor B was supposed to be there yesterday. Did they show up? Mike: Jason, did they take care of the water heater for you. Anne: Are you satisfied with the repair. Mike: And Jason says no. Anne: No, I still have… Now, we have another feedback loop. This is a maintenance process that we never could have done without having a virtual employee do this. It's too time-intensive and we have other work to be done. Mike: Then the flag goes up to tell the owner, owner, you got to provide hot water. You want an ACH or do you want us to loan you the money at an 18% rate? Anne: Yeah, put it on a credit card, however you want to do it. The reality for us is our tenant satisfaction has gone through the roof because we showed that we care, we're not letting it go, and literally, I as the broker get the list of not only what the outstanding work orders but where they are in the process and what she's done to move it forward. If we have a resident that we haven't been able to get in touch with, the contractor hasn't been able to, we have an escalation process. I don't manage, Bonnie manages. Again, total game-changer. Mike: The benefit out of all of that, we don't get pushed back when we're raising the rent. We started with our process in the middle of March. We do it in the middle of every month with notification of our rent increases and property. Most property managers that we know said you're crazy. We're either going to hold it. We'll tell them they don't have to pay an increase. We went out there and we got resistance from one tenant over the last, March, April, May, June. We got four months into our belt of increases and we have one pushback. Anne: Of course when you have rent increases, that increases our profitability, too. The owner makes a little bit more money, we make a little bit more money. It's still very reasonable. One of the things I'll say about rental rates is we don't do it arbitrarily. We do a full competitive market analysis. We make sure it's on the market. We don't raise all the way up to market if it's a significant jump, we'll do it at the average appreciation rate. Mike: We want to stay just below the top of the market. Anne: Correct because we don't want to give them a reason to leave. Mike: But we got happy tenants that don't want to leave. They go oh, I can't rent down the street for what I'm paying here because we always stay right below that. Jason: There's another hidden killer, too, I noticed in the scenario because when these vendors came to my property here and talked to me, they were basically bad-mouthing the landlord. They were like this guy is cheap. I've told them he needs to do this. In your scenario, the vendor is going to feel like they are getting taken care of. They are going to feel like they are on your team and on your side, and they are working with you, whereas these vendors feel more loyalty to me because they know the landlord isn't' doing the right thing. Anne: That goes back to having a contract with our contractor of standards of professionalism. Our vendors actually sign a document that says these are our expectations to be a vendor for us, and one of them is to not bad mouth as part of that. Mike: All these things combined, give us opportunities to shine. We get referrals every week. People come to us and say we hear great things about you as a property manager, and we're forward-thinking. We have opportunities there where we reach out to try to bring in business. Like what we're talking about earlier, a lot of the property managers are just sitting back. They are scared. They are afraid to do anything. That's the wrong thing to do. Anne: A lot of them are looking to bring on a BDM. Remember last year was the year of the BDM. Do you need a business development manager? Okay, maybe you do, maybe you don't. We tend to be our own. Mike: We are our BDMs. Anne: But again, we are high salary people like if you are paying somebody. Our time is very valuable, but we are seeing the smart property managers are supporting that sales effort through follow-up with the virtual employee, a virtual assistant that is literally a full-time doing this grinder follow-ups because we all know in sales—I don't care what industry you're in—you have to reach out seven, eight, ten times. Sometimes, property management specifically, it's pain point-related and some of the pain points only come up once a month. Some of the pain points come up once a year. Some of the pain points only come up periodically, so if you don't have a system to reach out to them, again it can't just be an email anymore. I think people are tired of tech, tech, tech. You need to have tech. You need to have a chatbox on your thing that's manned by a live person, in my opinion, but you also need that human-to-human automation. You need somebody that actually shows that they care a little bit about not only your company but the people involved. Having that sales support, a virtual employee to do that, really allows your BDM to be their most successful self and to do the things that they like to do. People don't realize that. BDMs don't want to do a whole lot of phone calling. They want to be in relationship management. If you can get them in front of the customer more times, if you can keep prospects warm and in the hopper so that when the prospect is ripe and ready, and your BDM can come and close, you are maximizing your ROI for that person. Mark: Yeah. They actually go to our website and ask for some of our tools or some of our information. It auto delivers but then they get a phone call, I want to make sure you got 21 questions or our technical information, and when they get that phone call, they're shocked. Anne: I'll tell you one other thing where people are going to have some issues. We all know about the Zillow. Zillow and they're charging for leads. That’s always been a hot topic. Zillow is rerouting leads. They're rerouting them to their call center in some areas, not to all areas, but into some. You don't have somebody actually calling those leads proactively when you get the email because even if you syndicate them, specifically if you syndicate them, you still get the email that says so and so is interested and they give you the phone number. But if the person proactively calls, Zillow is going to try to give them to people that are paying them, not necessarily to those of us who are syndications. If we're not actually outbound calling those leads as they come in, we are missing opportunities for tenants. This has been a big change probably in the last three weeks. This is fresh information that again if you don't have somebody in your office that has the time, energy, and effort to be calling in addition to responding back via email, you are missing an opportunity to get your properties rented. Again, we have literally five properties come on the market on June 5th, all but one are occupied now. That's how quick we are to get these things done because we have a dedicated resource and our virtual assistant. Literally, that is her only job to focus on. Jason: I want to touch on a couple of things you mentioned that you threw out that I think are important. One, you were talking about referrals. This is one of the number one ways to grow any business generally. I talked to a client I think yesterday, I was coaching a client and they were like our business is so great. We’re great. We got all this process dialed in and they said, but we're not getting any referrals. If a business is not getting any referrals, it's probably not as great as you think it is. Property managers have blind spots. We all do. For those listening, if you're not getting referrals, you got some customer care problems that are likely going on. You should be getting referrals. You should be getting referrals from your vendors. You should be getting referrals from your real estate friends. You should be getting referrals from your property management clients. You should be getting, maybe referrals from some of the vendors, but people should be talking about you. If they're not, there's some sort of blind spot that needs to be shored up. The other thing you mentioned (I think) is really smart. A lot of people, yes, they're like, I need a BDM. I need somebody to do sales, but they can't afford it. A lot of people can't just go out and afford to get some high-grade wonderful salesperson. But most business owners are not willing to also acknowledge that they are a part-time shitty salesperson. The time they're willing to dedicate or have sometimes is maybe an hour or two a day. That’s part-time. it's 10, maybe 15 hours a week, maybe they can dedicate up to 20 hours, but if you really want to grow and scale your business, there probably needs to be a little bit more time or you need just business being referred to you all the time, so it's super easy. One of the easiest hacks I implemented when I was a solopreneur and was doing all the sales, the web design, branding stuff, and everything myself, I got an assistant. I had that person operate as a sales assistant and an appointment setter. It immediately multiplied, not just doubled probably, but it multiplied my capacity to close deals. All I did was show up for appointments. I just met with people and sold. I wasn't doing any of the follow-ups. I was a solopreneur and my assistant was calling—she had a British accent—and saying hello, this is Helen, the assistant to the CEO Jason Hull of DoorGrow. He was wanting to get back together with you. It also set me in the mind of the prospect as something higher than maybe I actually looked like at the time being a solopreneur, sitting at home, trying to work in my living room. There's power in having a team. A lot of people say I can't afford to hire anybody. Maybe you just need somebody to start, just somebody that you can start with and they could be full-time or part-time, but they can start doing a piece of that thing that you need help with. They don't have to be able to do everything. Maybe it's the piece that you least enjoy. Maybe doing the follow-up, the cold calls, and whatnot. Anne: That's the great thing about virtual assistants and personal employees. You're looking at less than $20,000 a year for full-time dedicated help. That's a game-changer. You can't afford not to do that. I think that that's where people get sideways. Where we really help our clients in helping them define their staffing needs, and what's the best ROI for them to bring on board first. We’re talking about trends and the things that we see, but that's one of the services that we provide, helping them figure that out because sometimes it's like you said, sometimes this is a generalist. Somebody that can do a little bit of everything. Sometimes it's a sales support person. I know I need leads. Sometimes it’s accounting, sometimes it's leasing line, sometimes it's in marketing. A virtual assistant through HireSmart, because we're full-time, dedicated, and we specifically recruit for our clients. We don't have a room full of VAs that we go, here you go. I actually go and curate the contacts for you, and then I personally work with them for 40 hours afterward like that one-week job interview to make sure that they're amazing. Anybody that has hired and day two you're like, ugh, they just aren’t amazing. I take care of that for the clients. Mark: It frees up so much time. If it frees up 10 hours a week, how many deals can you close, how many new properties can you bring on in 10 hours? You invest maybe two hours where somebody else is making all the calls, set the appointments, you got that two hours invested. Your return on that is tremendous because you're going to make an offer that’s equivalent to $100, $200, $300 an hour for your investment of time. It goes back to, you've got to make those investments. You can't not hire now, you can't put your head in the sand or pull back in your shell and say, I'm going to do it myself. Especially if you're not happy doing it because if you're not happy, you're not going to get it done. Jason: Therefore, a lot of people that have been shifting to doing more themselves. I have to lay off team members now, I'm doing everything myself. Now I'm doing stuff that I don't even want to do. Let's touch on one thing that you just mentioned. I think this is really important for everybody listening to understand. I've seen this in hundreds of property management businesses and businesses in general, but one of the most painful or dangerous things I think a business owner can do is hiring the wrong person, the wrong role, spending the wrong money at the wrong time. A lot of people hire based on what they think the business needs instead of what they need in order to create more space and eliminate the number one bottleneck in the company, which is you the business owner, it's the entrepreneur. You taking the time to figure out what they actually need to get the best ROI is huge for them because they've seen lots of people, they hire the wrong person they didn't need. Now they're spending this money, or they just hired a bad person in general which not just cost them the money they spent on that person and the time they spent to get that person, but they're now losing money in secret places. I've had team members that stole from me. I've had team members that stole time. I've had team members delete and stuff after I fired them. These are problems that entrepreneurs learn painfully over time trying to build a team. A lot of property managers are in that first trap. They're the 50–60 door mark, they don't know how they can afford to hire that first person, and this is a solution for that. This is a very obvious solution for that. You can help them figure out who they really need right now and to take the next step forward, because if they spend the money on the right person, they make more money. It makes it easier. They then can reinvest. If they spend it on the wrong person, or the wrong tool, at the wrong time, it could be the right tool but it's at the right time, or they're getting software prematurely that they didn't really have to have at that point, or whatever it might be. If you spend money at the wrong time even though it might be the right tool for the future, you're hurting your ability to get to that future. Anne: I totally agree with that. Jason: Cash flow. If you run out of cash flow, the business dies. It’s like the Indiana Jones boulder rolling after you is the cash monster trying to get to you. If the boulder catches you, the business is game over. You’ve run out of money, run out of cash, you're dead. People started to feel that in March. You have to always be outpacing that boulder. If you spend, the boulder gets bigger and faster, but you can get faster if you spend it on the right people. Anne: One of the things I tell a lot of prospects that I'm talking to is most property managers (specifically) were never trained on how to hire or how to build teams. That’s not something we learn at school, it's only by trial and fire. A lot of property managers have fallen into it. Mark: There's not a hiring 301 class in college. Anne: One of the things that I tell them is, just like you're the expert in finding the right tenant for an owner because you've seen enough applications, you've gone through the process, you've done all that, you are the expert there, we’re the experts in hiring. I know I have a profile for hiring, I know what's successful, I know what's not successful. I save my clients from hundreds of hiring mistakes because it's not that they can't do it, a DIY landlord can do it, but they can't do it as well as a property manager. I say the same thing. You can hire. It’s going to take you more time, you don't have a process, you don't do it enough, I have done thousands. Just in the last six months alone, I have evaluated over 9000 applications. You say that gave me some data points. Jason: You know the BS, you know how to spot the scammers, you know which people are gaming the system, you know which people are feeding you a story, you know what questions need to be asked. In the Philippines, you got to ask about their internet connection. You got to, you can't just trust that they have one. You got to ask about where they're working. Where are you working at? Where are you working from? That was part of the thing that I really enjoyed working with you guys. I always look at everything through a certain filter, and I'm skeptical, and I want to see how I can help people. As I went through your process, I'm like, they do this. They already do this. This is stuff I've learned over a decade in my own painful experiences hiring in India, Bangladesh, Russia, the Philippines, Bolivia, and of course the US, which ultimately most of my team are in the US now. But I have Filipino team members. I can personally vouch for your hiring process making a lot of sense. It’s solid and it works really because it's very similar to my own. There are so many similarities. Okay, they've got this down, but you have some advantages. We talked about this in the previous episode. You guys should go listen to that where we talked about their processes and some stuff they do, but you have vetting, background checks, and stuff that people don't just have access to if they're just trying to DIY this. Mark: It’s like the difference, if you're getting married, you got the bride and the groom, and the bride wants a custom-made dress, not one off the rack. The groom really wants a tux that fits them. We are the custom dress, we are the custom tux for that couple versus walking into Neiman and pulling one off the shelves, this looks good, or getting a dress off the hanger and putting it on like, this almost fits, let's go get married. Jason: It looks like your dad handed you down a suit or something. Mark: Right. That’s the difference in what we do. We are custom for our client. We are not off the rack. Anne: Right, and outside of that is it takes time. It takes us 3–4 weeks to literally curate the right people. I always say if you need to hire somebody just the first person off the street, good luck. Jason: You guys are bespoke. It’s bespoke hiring. Anne: We have a guarantee and all of those things, and we can back up what we're saying. But again, if you're trying to grow your property management business right now, you need to look at your staff. Here’s the other thing. Not all staff members are coming back. You may think they're coming back. They're not coming back. You’ve got to look at who are your top liners? Who are the ones that you’ve got to keep? You need to be investing in a relationship with those people first of all. If you're not talking to them on a regular basis, if you're not feeding them, if you're not taking care of them, you need to take care of them now. Who’s part of your med tier? The kind of people that are like, if they come back, great. If they don’t, what's the impact that’s going to happen? What are the people that you really know you just need to not have come back, and you need to deal with that pretty quickly. Mark: For our best person, we got a VA to assist that person so that they can do even better at the best that they were. That’s the important thing that people need to take away from changes that are coming out of COVID. It’s supporting your staff and letting them work at the highest and best use. Maybe that's taking away some of those phone calls and emails by hiring an assistant for them and to give you the opportunity to grow. It’s an assistant to you for the business development to make those calls and to set up those appointments, so that you can just close. Doing those things is the job that Anne enjoys so much is finding the individual to match. What does Jason need exactly? Even though Jason doesn't know exactly, she'll draw that out of you, and I'm just picking on you on that. Anne: That’s a puzzle for me. There's nothing better than when I see my clients six months in, years in, we have our clients for five years now and seeing them and they’d say, Mitch has been the best thing ever in my company. She's really allowed me to be amazing and do what I want to do. Literally, these are comments that we get when we survey our clients. It has been a game-changer. If you're open and able to change. I don't know how much time we have, but there are a couple of things that you need to look at, regardless of whether you use virtual assistants, employees, or whether you are looking at that which are some of the challenges that come from working with a remote team, because remember, even if you're planning to go back to an office, your staff is going to want to have more flexibility. Let’s just call it what it is. Not everybody wants to commute anymore. There are some that miss being in that environment, there's a lot of guys that are like… Mark: We’re happier. Jason: Yeah, why should I spend time commuting? Why should I spend time driving to this? I think there are a lot fewer people doing face-to-face appointments, and they'll just do it through Zoom or they'll do it through Google Hangouts, Meet, or whatever. Anne: Whatever works. What we're finding is it is truly illuminating management problems. It’s illuminating communication problems. If you had a communication problem in the office, now you have a tremendous communication breakdown outside of the office. Mark: If you have an operations failure in the office, boy, the failures are even bigger. Anne: As managers, we need to look at what tools do we have on our tool belt. We help our clients with some of that because we understand years ago that we needed to equip our people to be good at this so that they would keep our people. Mark: It is in software, it’s tools, it’s technology. There's a lot of different pieces that go into that. Anne: Looking at your management style and we like to manage personally using key performance indicators (KPIs) because that takes [...] work out of it. I don’t have to worry if they're working eight hours as long as the KPIs are done and they can get their job done in six, I'm happy to pay them for eight and let them do what they want to do, as long as my stuff’s getting done to a level that I expected. That's the easy button for management, if you don't know about key performance indicators, I certainly encourage you to learn what that is, and how to do that, but it’s one of the things that we teach our clients to do very easily. There are some easy methodologies to do that, but we are seeing some communication breakdowns from people that don't use us. We’re seeing some issues with management. The manager that was the nice guy, that was able to get people rah-rah-rah in the office because she was able to see them, that’s now changed. Now, work is starting to do great. Mark: They can't hide behind the curtain. Anne: They can't hide behind that personality anymore because work’s not getting done. That’s one cautionary tale that I will throw out to your listeners. Jason: Results don’t lie. Anne: They don’t, but it’s difficult to have conversations if you don't have data, and a lot of times, people don't want to track data because they think it's too difficult. We teach our clients how to do it very simply, very easily, and very quickly. That's the other thing. You’ve got to be able to get feedback daily to keep on top of it. If you wait for weeks or months, you are now in this huge hole of garbage that is very difficult to get out of. Make sense? Jason: Makes sense. It's been awesome having you here on the show. Maybe we can take just a few minutes, let's talk about some opportunities right now and ways you think property managers have an opportunity to grow after COVID. We’ve touched on maybe doing webinars, I think you threw out there, the Airbnb. I think I have one client that added 24 doors in a month just from former Airbnbs by cold calling them and reaching out. Obviously, you got to convince them probably to get the furniture out of the place, and make sure that these are good opportunities to manage, and that it’s going to rent effectively compared to what they're paying because some of them were making a lot of money. Mark: They were. You can offer a turnkey for that. I know you've got furniture and all, I'll take care of making the donation, or I'll get the local company that buys furniture and resells it. I don't know if there's a market for that right now, but I'll get it picked up by Salvation Army or the kidney people, and you'll get the receipt. I'll take care of all of that and make it easy for you to let me manage your property long-term. The property managers that think that way are the ones that will be successful. We’ve been seeing that happen in Airbnb and a lot of them are coming back out of service. Anne: One of the things we always recommend when we're consulting with clients just in general is know your avatar. If you're a short-term rental person and that’s your avatar, then you need to create a different marketing strategy around that, like how are you going to deal with that. If your avatar is long-term rentals and you want to gain business by going after short-term to convert them to long-term like Mark said, have a package, have a system, get your relationships put together. Right now interestingly enough, we have investors that are scared to death and are selling, and we have investors that are super excited and are buying. Mark: [...] sales transaction. Though the property manager doesn't have a sales component in their business, they need to have an alignment with the referral program to somebody that does sales. I mean I'm selling two houses a month this year. Anne: Without trying, without marketing. Mark: Yeah, these are my investors. They just say I want to sell, and I’ll say I want to make the commission. No problem. Anne: It's about having a strategy, being able to implement that strategy. and figuring out what are the resources that you need to create that strategy. We think using virtual employees and virtual assistants is a great way to maximize all of that because right now, it is kind of intense. If you're going to do research for short-term rentals, there's not a database you can necessarily easily pull from. You’ve got to go search for them, talk to them. Having that marketing strategy based on what it is that you want to do, having a value proposition that speaks to the pain that the person is dealing with, all are very important. Having a website that actually can capture those leads and make you look professional which is what you guys do is also part of that. You have this well-rounded marketing plan. Mark: We have our VA do all the research. Maybe it’s calling everybody that's on Craigslist or ads out there and saying, you may be tired of being a manager, you should go to this webinar we have coming up. It’s how to be a better manager and how to deal with the current [...]. We can do all those invitations to get people into our webinars that are going to show them they don't need to be doing this anymore. There's a lot of different ways that property managers can grow their business right now, but they need to think smart and make those investments. Anne: And HireSmart. Jason: And they need to HireSmart. Awesome. It's great to see you guys again. I'm glad you guys are doing well there over near Atlanta. Keep me apprised as to your next idea. Anne: We always have them. Jason: You always have them. That’s as crazy entrepreneurs. We always are coming up with new stuff. I'll let you guys go and I appreciate you guys coming on. Your website is? Anne: www.hiresmartvas.com Jason: All right. Thanks, Mark, thanks, Anne. Mark: Thank you very much. Anne: Welcome. Thank you, Jason. We appreciate you. Jason: Awesome to have them on. If you are a property management entrepreneur, and you're wanting to add doors, and you're wanting to build a business that you actually enjoy, that you love, that is built around you, this is what we do at DoorGrow. Reach out, I guarantee that we’re going to make your business better in some way, shape, or form, and you're going to love it. Even if you feel like you hate it now, maybe you're thinking you want out of it, you're feeling like it’s uncomfortable, you're probably just doing the wrong things in that business, and you may need some VAs that might be a solution for sure. We can help clean up the frontend of your business and help you get the business in alignment with you. Reach out, check us out at doorgrow.com, and make sure you join our Facebook group. We've got an awesome community there, and people that are helpers, that are givers, and you can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. Mark and Anne are in that group. We've got lots of other really cool property management entrepreneurs that are willing to contribute and help you out. Until next time everyone. To our mutual growth. Bye, everybody. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you’ve learned and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life. April Fools Day is coming. Prank your friends opening a never ending fake update screen on their computer. Sit back and watch their reaction.

EP:20 Giving Away My Age with guest Bob Lotich, Seedtime.com Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes.  That's M, like Mary, v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system all in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose! Mvelopes.com. And now, Here's Mary!    Mary Hunt: [00:00:32] Everyone. I'm so happy to have you back with me on this episode of Debt Proof Living. And boy, am I excited! This is a first for us. We're new to this business anyway, but this is an absolute first. We're having an interview! I have invited a guy that I have known of and spoken with, not met face to face yet. Perhaps that'll happen someday soon, but I have followed Bob Lotich on his blogs now for several years, lots of years. And I gotta tell you this guy's got it all together. I love what Bob teaches. He, he comes at personal finance and money management from a Biblical viewpoint. Now I'm not saying that this is a church service or a Bible study necessarily, but I'm telling you Bob  and I share so many values because we are both followers of Jesus Christ. And if that cannot help, but to color our lives and the way that we handle everything, the way that we manage our money. And the way that we teach. So I am thrilled to death to have Bob with us today. Now, let me tell you a little bit about him. He is a certified educator in personal finance. That means he gets to put at the end of his name, CEPF and he started a blog called SeedTime. it was originally called Christian Personal Finance or ChristianPF is probably the way you might remember it way back in 2007. That was not that long ago because I started way back in 1997 online. So. We go back a long time. But anyway, his passion is to help fellow believers like me and like many of you to learn how to manage your money wisely., His personal mission and the mission of his blog Seedtime, is to make, save, grow and give money to benefit others. Isn't that awesome? I love that. Make, save, grow and give. After all says Bob, life, isn't about the accumulation of things, but it's about how much we can make a difference in this world by giving. And I gotta put my parentheses in here. We are certainly in a time right now during this global disruption, our lives have been so disrupted. what better time then we can look at the whole world to find ways that we can help and give and serve. In 2017 SeedTime donated 36% of all e-course sales to Feed My Starving Children, which has provided 79,000 meals to hungry kids around the world. That is  just amazing. Amazing. Once Bob realized that by paying off his debt, he could fund God's kingdom  instead of paying interest to banks, it provided a deeper level of motivation for him and his wife to get out of debt. That sealed the deal. Bob and Linda spent the next couple of years paying off their $46,000 of debt in their first years of marriage. Bob also has a passion for helping entrepreneurs, get their business ideas off the ground. And he's written two fabulous books, helping bloggers and want-to-be-bloggers build and grow their blogs.  So if you have that in your mind, you really, really need to check out Bob Lotich.  Anyway, when Bob isn't working, he is likely hanging out with his wife, Linda, their kids, Alden, Valerie, and Oliver. Working on his garden. Eating some artisanal dark chocolate .Playing his guitar or riding his motorcycle. And sometimes, you ready? All at the same time!  Now I have to see a picture of this. And so without any further hesitation or delay welcome, Bob!   Bob Lotich: [00:04:13] Mary, thank you so much. It is an honor to be here. It's an honor to be speaking with you. You've been a role model and a mentor for many, many years, and I'm just thrilled to be able to chat.    Mary Hunt: [00:04:24] we're so happy to have you here. Bob, there's so much that you could teach us about. All of us! And, you know, I put myself in that too, because some of these lessons, we have to keep learning over and over and over again. And, and with what we've gone through recently, I am certain that many people listening to me now are much more aware of the need to plan, prepare to manage their money well. So let's get right to it. What was your inspiration for beginning your blog SeedTime, and then tell us where did that name, that word come from, SeedTime? The name of that you named your blog.     Bob Lotich: [00:04:59] So in terms of actually starting the blog, like you alluded to it originally was Christian PF. And, and for me, I, I was in a mess financially. I was just in debt up to my eyeballs and just didn't know how to move out of that spot in life. And once I discovered that the Bible actually talked a lot about money and, and then once I discovered that some of this advice was actually still relevant for today. So even this book, that's thousands of years old and actually had timely and relevant, you know, age old wisdom that was still beneficial for us today. then I started getting interested in this and, and I was, you know, learning a whole bunch of practical things about money. I was reading every magazine and book I could get my hands on. But then I was also digging into the Bible to see what that had to say about everything. And I sort of started combining these two ideas, these two sources of information. And that's what kind of led me to create this blog. Cause I just wanted to share what I was learning with anyone who would listen. And that's kind of how we got it off the ground. Now, we did change the name to SeedTime a few years ago, we kind of rebranded and that comes from a verse in Genesis. Genesis 8:22. And, it's where God's talking about how there will always be the law of seed time and harvest. And that's kind of where that comes from. This idea. That the fascinating thing for me is that, pretty much, if you look at everything that God does, it almost always starts with the seed. you know, and so you can apply that to so many areas, but our financial, our finances and our. financial growth or any growth in any area of our life. It always starts with something really, really small. And that's where the power is, being able to take that small thing and to start and to just care for that, to water that seed and to keep caring for that and to let that grow into the mighty oak that it will become.   Mary Hunt: [00:06:46] That is fabulous. You know, as you were saying that I can't help, but think some of the things that I've been telling my grandchildren and my kids and myself in this past few months, Is that we have to grab onto the things that we know will never change. We're looking at things that can change and have changed in ways that we'd probably never dreamed, but you're absolutely right. Seed time. We should count on that. We can count on the sun coming up in the morning, going down at night. There are things that God has given us that will never, ever change. How wonderful to grab onto that. That, that is, that is really, really that's fabulous. So you've kind of already alluded to this. I was going to ask you what role has debt and savings played in your life? So let's, let's look at that debt thing. I, you know, I've been there as well. How did debt affect you personally? And can you contrast that with where you are now? And I need emotionally, day to day, the difference between debt and debt free for you and Linda.    Bob Lotich: [00:07:50] Yeah. you know, and like we had talked before, I know a little bit of your story and, what it was like for you and, yeah. And coming back to the Bible, this was one of the first verses that I discovered where it's like, that makes so much sense. You know, it was a verse in Proverbs where it talks about how the borrower is slave to the lender. And when I read that, like, that's exactly how I feel. That's exactly how I feel like, you know, the bank owns my car and they own my house and they, you know, all these credit card companies are hanging this thing over my head and the student loans. All this stuff. It's like, I felt like every dollar that I had was someone else's and I felt like I'm going to work to give money to these companies. And it was a very, yeah. Relative to where we are now, we are now 100% debt free by the grace of God and we're tickled pink and enjoying it. But, but comparing the two different things, it's very clear. That, that was a very unsettling feeling. and I knew that then, but like, especially contrasting it to being a hundred percent debt free. It's just so much different. And you know, my encouragement to people all the time is it's good. Like, I'm sure you think that it's good when you pay for your dad, but it is just, it's so good. It's so much better. It feels so much richer than I think most people imagine. And I think if everybody knew how great it would be, feel to be a hundred percent debt free. I think a lot more people would be chasing it.   Mary Hunt: [00:09:15 ]I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm looking right now and reading my in inbox, my email from people who, who came into this time of life is shut down of our country, losing their jobs and all with tons of debt and no savings. And that's horrific. I mean, we're starting to see the fallout of that. I'm wondering if you and Linda did, was it just, is it, has this just been a little blip in the road? Because you are prepared, you have savings. You are not depending, on a paycheck every Friday or whatever like that. And I really like our listeners to understand how important it is to plan.    Bob Lotich: [00:09:54] You know, that was part of being able to pay off our debt or what will got us excited about paying off our debt. Cause it would be able to build up a bigger emergency fund. for stuff like this, you know, and so we were able to do that and, you know, and we've gone through hiccups, like, I went through a pretty scary layoff. that kind of was my transition into being an entrepreneur. And that was the same type of thing where that, that emergency fund, really helped us considerably get through that phase of a lot of personal uncertainty. And now we're in kind of global uncertainty and, you know, the government keeps throwing money at us, but. Like, that's not going to last forever. That's not going to solve our problems. And it's like, it's nice. Then it will help some people, but that's not a long term solution. Like we need to be, figuring these things out for ourselves and getting in a solid financial spot ourselves so we can better handle these things. And yeah, in our case, It has been, yeah, personally it still affects us. It's like, you're not immune to it when you're debt free, but, but it's definitely on a much lower level and scale than it would be if we were still carrying all the debt we were before. Like, I don't want to think about how we would be thinking and how we'd be handling this. If we. Had that, that load that we had before.   Julie Emerson:  Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Okay. Hi, I'm Julie. Producer a Debt Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck. Many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.  That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar. A purpose. People who use envelope, see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.  And currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free. Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation.     Mary Hunt:  [00:12:15] yeah. I have a question for you that I get quite often, especially from younger folks, I think that they're facing life. You know, how do I manage debt? Not how do I live without debt? It's become a way of  life for  them, but this is the question, you know, Jesus told us, why do you worry? Don't you know, that the father takes care of even the birds. They don't worry. They don't wonder where the next meal is coming. Why are you worried? Don't worry about tomorrow. Yeah, but then we read in another part of the Bible, like in the Psalms that says, or the Proverbs, you know, that look at the ant, they don't, they don't play all summer. They are gathering for the winter that's coming. How do you explain, how do we plan for the future? But yet trust God for the future. Where, where is that balance? And are we foolish to say, God will take care of tomorrow and spend it all today that He's given me.    Bob Lotich:  [00:13:15] Yeah. That is a, a wonderful question. That. I wish I had the answer to, you know, this is something that we, Linda and I, even at this moment, like we still have discussions about this, where we are trying to figure out that perfect balance point of using wisdom. You know, like you have many instances, you have Joseph in the Bible, being instructed during the years of plenty to save up for the years of famine that were coming like. It's it's, you know, using wisdom to plan ahead, like the, you know, the Proverb you mentioned it's clearly a Biblical principle, but at the same time, like we can't trust in any of that. And I find for me personally, when I find myself trusting in my savings account too much. Trusting in my sort- my income source, whatever it is. if I am doing that too heavily, like God will correct me. Like, I will sense that like, Nope, I don't want you leaning on that. I want you leaning on me as your provider and to trust. And it's like, it's good that you're doing that and using wisdom, but yeah, for us, that's been just a constant thing where, where we're trying to find that perfect spot. And honestly, I don't know that there is a perfect spot. I think that those two pieces have to work together. And I think that, you know, the unfortunate answer for a lot of us is that it's a personal individualized thing that we're all in different places on our journey. And, if we are followers of Jesus, that that's something that we can trust that God is going to guide us on individually, you know, Holy spirit leading us in whatever direction. but yeah, it's a tough one. It's a really tough one. I wish there was a pat black and white answer, but, I don't think it's that clear cut.    Mary Hunt:  [00:14:55] Just interject and share this, that. As this whole shutdown thing happened so quickly in the U S in the early months of 2020, my husband and I, who w w we have emergency savings. I mean, you know, six months living expenses in the bank, I think is a pretty good benchmark. And as I look at it, now, I understand it's so much more why we need to plan, because we've been able to help others. Okay. And that giving thing, when we lived in California, we went to Saddleback Church. And so Rick Warren was my pastor and I still consider him that way. And I'll never, ever forget something that he said in a sermon that has just, it impacted my life. So seriously, he says, this. Money is a test and a trust. God puts money into your life to see if he can trust you with it. And if you spend it all on yourself and you squander it and you have nothing to show for tomorrow, He knows He can't, He can't trust you. So it's almost as if God put this, these funds and this resources into our lives, so that we'd be able to serve Him. And that almost brings me to tears. As I see that new dimension of planning, it's not just for us, just not to pay our bills. And you know, for people who have debt, they still need to have savings. They still need to have emergency fund, but it's sad when that money has to go to the bank. So I, I just applaud you and absolutely how you explained that you've brought new meaning to those verses to me. And I, I really thank you for that. So you're saying that if I'm planning that doesn't show, I'm not trusting.    Bob Lotich: [00:16:37] Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, like we, we literally were having a conversation about this the other day because our business has changed a lot over the last few years where, A few of the sources of revenue that we were kind of leaning, or I should say me, this is probably more me than Linda. Linda is a little better about this, but I just tend to lean too much on one source of revenue. And it's like, if you have a job, like it's easy to view your job or your employer as your provider, but that's a dangerous place to be. because they're really not your provider, you know? And when you're in that position, then you lose your job. And suddenly, you know, your whole world is turned upside down. But as a believer, like we should be able to go through that. And that being like the storm, when Jesus is asleep on the boat, you know, in this hurricane type, wind situation, And he's at rest because he knows his father is going to take care of him and that he's not going to drown or whatever the thing may be. And the same thing can be applied to our lives. So regardless of what's going on in the world, around us, you know, in this case with the pandemic, all the economic uncertainty and job loss and everything else. Like, we can still trust God that He's going to do that. But when we're trusting too much in our business or in the government or in our job or whatever, the thing may be, we're just on shaky ground. That is not a good place to be standing.    Mary Hunt: [00:18:00] Okay. I have a question for you. First I want to, I want to remind my listeners that we have a podcast series, which is based on my book The 7 Money Rules for Life. And of course, one of my rules is that from what you receive, you must always give some away. And there's a reason for that. I've got lots of reasons, but I want to hear your reasons, Bob, because when it comes to giving, I've learned from you, that you put a lot of people to shame. Tell us about your- and what you and Linda have decided to do with living, with giving. I'm sorry, with giving away money that God puts into your hands.   Bob Lotich: [00:18:37] I just want to say. I mean, you mentioned I was putting people to shave and just so we're clear, like, all we have done is obeyed what we sense the Lord leading us to do, and everybody's on their own giving journey. And yeah, my encouragement to everyone is to push yourself a little bit further and we can talk a little bit about what we've gone through and what the Lord led us to do. But I didn't start out, I started out as a child, pretty selfish, and pretty self centered. And, one of my earliest memories was thinking was actually talking to my younger sister who is three years younger than me. I was probably 10 at the time. And I remember telling her, you know, when I get older, I'm going to be really rich and I'm going to have this big, old mansion. I'm going to have a tennis court inside, a basketball court inside, two pools. I'm going to have all this stuff and just laid up, named off everything in this giant mansion I was going to have. I said, and you can't come in!  And she started crying. And, it's one of my earliest memories about kind of, you know, and it's just a sibling thing, but, I was thinking just about myself and just about all the wealth that I could accumulate, you know, and that carried over into my teen years, when I really began to serve the Lord and he began to work on my heart and I think it's just interesting that generosity would become like one of Linda and I's biggest passions. and so over the next couple of years, my introduction to giving and tithing kind of came at a church that I was at, that was not real great. And so I was attending this church and watched a guest preacher come up and, go up to the alter and basically real small church, probably a hundred people. Everybody knew each other. And goes up to the altar and says, I want everyone who's not tithing to raise your hand. I'm a fairly new Christian at this point. And I'm like, this does not feel right. Is this what's normal? You know? And I I've since learned that that's not normal. And so he goes on to two people in the congregation, raised their hands and he called them up to the altar and he just continued to kind of berate them in front of the entire congregation for not tithing. And, you know, and as a very new believer, I I'm like, I, this just doesn't feel right. I just don't think this makes sense. And thankfully in my Bible, I went on to read in second Corinthians 9, where talking about, you should not give out of compulsion, you know, And it's like that certainly was compulsion. But anyway, my point is, this is kind of how I was introduced to this idea of tithing. So it wasn't the best introduction. but I, you know, as I studied this principle more, I came to realize that it's not about giving to the preacher. It's not about giving to church even, it's about giving to God. And so that was kind of how we got started by giving 10% of our income. And we did support our local church with it. And at that point, we just noticed, I don't know, everything seem to make a lot more sense financially. It was really weird. but yeah, it just seemed like everything began to click a lot better. and we had some kind of really cool miraculous things happen around that financially. But everything was just working better. And then we noticed that God would just kind of call us to give a little bit more and do a little more here and just always stretching us a little bit towards this a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit like, ah, I don't know about that, but we'll do it because I feel like this is what you're asking us to do. And then ultimately that kind of led to when I was 31 years old, I was kind of spending some time praying in a field. And I was praying about some financial struggles that we were having, you know, kind of praying for the solution to these problems, these financial problems and these financial goals that we wanted to reach. And I felt the Lord just kind of, you know, impress in my heart. If you want to see me really move on your finances, I want you to give your age as a percentage of your income. And so I was 31 at the time and I. You know, it took me a minute. Like, what is that? Is that even possible? Like, it's we have enough to do that. Like, you know, anyway, so I'm like trying to mentally run the numbers and like, I don't even know if we can make that work. And anyway, so I went back home and talked to Linda and she amazingly, she was on board. She was like, yeah, let's do it. You know? So it's like, all right, let's try this out. So we began doing that and, Yeah, like, this is what is so amazing about this. Like we, well, it seemed like that should have taken us away from our financial goals we're trying to reach. But within that year we had paid off our house. Like, it makes no sense at all, but that's just what happened. And. You know, so it's just really amazing, that he's kind of led us on this journey and the kind of, some of the breakthrough and the financial peace that has come as a result of yielding to what He's asked us to do.    Mary Hunt: [00:23:29] that is, you know, you cannot out-give God. I mean, we hear that. Yeah. We have other people say that but it's hard to turn that loose in your life. That is difficult because. But I'll tell you what I can tell you the same kinds of stories. And it's absolutely true that people need to experience this for themselves. That is great. You know, I hate to tell you this, but what have you lived to be a hundred?   Bob Lotich: [00:23:55] Yeah, no, I'm excited. I think it'll be fun challenge. Yeah. I mean, that's one of my goals. I can't wait till we get to the point where we're giving away 90% of our income and I hope we get to do it before age 90.    Mary Hunt: [00:24:06] All right. So, so Bob, I know that you have a practice in your life that I would love to put into my life, and I would not even know where to begin. And that is that you take sabbatical time. Time off, time to get away. Now, I kind of relate to this, or I know a lot of our listeners can, because we've all been given a bit of a sabbatical over the last couple of months, especially folks who have been furloughed or laid off from their jobs unexpectedly, but yeah. Can you tell us about that? How you do it, how often you do it and what that has helped, what has that done for your life?    Bob Lotich: [00:24:43] Yeah, so, you know, being a business owner, like you are like, it's, it's scary taking one day and just stepping away from your business. It's your baby. And it always feels like you need to care for it and you need to be present. And so. probably about seven or eight years ago, I decided I was going to take one week off and step away from the business. And I kind of felt like I was supposed to do this, but I was also terrified and I decided I wasn't gonna check email the entire time. Wasn't gonna check any comments. It wasn't just completely stepping away for entire week. And I was terrified. I was just absolutely terrified that when I came back, it was going to be gone. It would have blown up. It would have been hacked. It would have any number of things. And, but I did it and I made it through that week and it felt really good and it just really provided a lot of clarity of mind that I needed at the time. And, and so anyway, so I just really enjoyed that and I decided about six months later, a year later, I wanted to try to press it and stretch a little bit more. And I asked what if we do this for an entire month? And, and the same feelings of just like fear. And there's no way we can actually do this. we're there, it was just really present and I was really scared and again, same type of thing. And, but we started to do it and again, like stepped away from email from entire month. that time I was a little bit of a chicken and I told my assistant, I had assistant at the time. And I told her that was going to call her once a week and just check in with her and make sure everything was okay. But after that month, the benefits that I received from it were so wonderful that I, I've done it every year since. And I've just, I've just been so addicted to the benefit of it. And so we can talk a little bit about that. You know, one of those biggest benefits for me is just being able to see things from a 10,000 foot view. Because, I'm the type of person who is, I just put my head down and I just work and I run towards whatever the thing I'm doing. And it, when, if you're a worker like that, who isn't real great at stepping back and looking at the big picture, like you can just do that and do that for years and years on end and find yourself somewhere where you don't want to be. And where you never intended to go. Or building a business that, you know, controls you and runs your life rather than a business that you run. Or whatever the thing may be. Down a career path that you never intended to go down. But being able to step back just completely decompress and take an honest look at where you are, where you want to go and do that with a clear head has been so incredibly valuable for me. That, yeah, it's like I'm sold on it and we're addicted and we're just going to keep doing it.   Mary Hunt: [00:27:32] That is amazing. So what is, what is the longest sabbatical you've taken?    Bob Lotich: [00:27:37] Yeah. Well, I can tell you about that one too. I was really gonna freak you out. So,    Mary Hunt: [00:27:41 I already know, what's coming.   Bob Lotich: [00:27:43] Three years ago, we, And this one, wasn't my idea at all. but I felt like the Lord was leading me to take an entire year off.  And, and so in 2017, we stepped away from the business for an entire year, which, and every single time, like it's just absolutely terrifying. And every single time, like I watched God sustain us through it, cover us financially through it and, and cover all the things that I'm worried about and freaked out about. And that year was no different. And, and in fact, like the timing of it was really special and precious. So we, that year we had kind of put our name in the hat to adopt. And the agency we, that we were working with at the time said, you know, they're really kind of cookie cutter and had really good systems in place. And they said, basically we bring birth mothers in, in a three to four month range after they've gotten pregnant. And so basically you have, you know, five or six months heads-up notice you can get everything prepared. And so you can get to know the birth mother and all these things, you know, for this phase. It's like, this is our standard process. This is how we do it. So we had done that about three months. It right at the beginning of the year and in three months had gone by and we hadn't heard anything. And it was about March of that year when kind of we made this decision to take this year sabbatical thing. And, within four weeks of deciding that we were going to do this, we got a call from the adoption agency, after not hearing anything from them for three months. They said we actually have a special situation. We have a little girl who was actually born last night and the birth mother, you know, has picked you guys. And so, if you, you know, approve, then we can move forward with this. So we got off the phone and, prayed about it for about 10 minutes. And we drove down to Alabama and picked up our little baby girl. And the timing of it was just so wonderful because I had so much stuff planned that year that I don't know that we could have handled it. Because you know, for anyone who doesn't know when you do this, like you have to, so we had to drive down to Alabama and plan on being there for 14 days. Cause it's an interstate adoption. And that's the process. Is you just have to stay there and you have to live out of a hotel with a newborn, and whatever, until you can get back. And then in our case, like, because we were expecting the six month kind of lead in, like we had gotten rid of our car seat, we'd given it to, Linda's, sister. And we had gotten rid of all of our baby clothes and given them to someone else. So like we were starting from scratch. We literally, I had to run from the hospital to Target, to buy baby clothes and to buy a car seat. Just so unprepared! Anyway, so the timing just worked out so well. It was wonderful that I get to spend most of that first year with her. Just really, really precious time that, I will cherish forever.    Mary Hunt: [00:30:25] And it's amazing. I just love that. Well, you've got to answer the question of, do you have a staff who kept the business going?  Or? Bob Lotich: [00:30:33] Yeah, small, very small. so we have an operations manager, who just kind of helps and assists with a lot of, just the day to day operations and she ran, kept things afloat while we did it. But, but because like our businesses is a blog, you know, and we have some courses that we offer and we have, you know, podcasts, YouTube channel, all that stuff. Basically, we just put content on pause for the entire year. And so we would send out an email once a month or so, just to offer some of our previous content that we had done, you know, so just kind of reusing some of that content, but basically the question I had to ask and figuring out how to actually make this work is. How do I do this sabbatical, in an, you know, and honor that as much as possible, while still honoring the students that we had, you know, some were paying for access to me. So I honored those commitments, which was probably about 30 to 60 minutes a week, relatively small, but I wanted to honor that because they'd paid for access to me. And then I wanted to just continue to, if there was a way to automate serving our audience. And so what we did was through email, we just republished articles that were evergreen. that I had written years earlier, there were still timely and relevant. And so our operations manager kind of assisted with that. And she handles all of the emails that came in for the entire year handled comments and like a lot of those things. So that was practically how, kind of, how we worked through that.    Mary Hunt: [00:32:03] It sounds to me like you have a book in there somewhere.    Bob Lotich: [00:32:06] Yeah. so I'm working on a book now and that a good bit of that is going to be in there. I think    Mary Hunt: [00:32:11] that's great.  Yeah,  thanks so much for being with us. One last thing. So anything that you would like our DPL and everyday cheapskate listeners to know?    Bob Lotich: [00:32:20] Yeah. I mean, yeah, kind of summing up or to put in a bow on everything that we've just talked about here. The, the thing that's so interesting to me about kind of the convergence of God and money is that if we allow him, like, if we are bold to follow him in obedience and the things that he's asking us to do. Like, it's an absolute, amazing adventure. Like, I, I cannot, you know, when I became a Christian, I thought life was going to be really boring and whatever. Like I just had this, these visions that I am, you know, agreeing to sign up to this incredibly boring life and by following Jesus and really just going after it and leaning into these things, like it has been the most wild and amazing adventure that he has led us on. And that is. My encouragement. It's like, if you're living, what feels like a boring mundane life, like just lean into God, like, cause that's where things really will start change for you.    Mary Hunt: [00:33:14] That's great. Thank you so much, Bob, for being with us and I want everyone listening. Go visit Bob's blog, seedtime.com. You're going to love it and you are going to love  all of the stuff he and Linda do. They do live, facebook live. They do YouTube. You'll get to know them and their family. It's fantastic. Thanks so much, Bob.    Bob Lotich: [00:33:37] Thank you, Mary. Really, really appreciate you having me.   Julie Emerson: [00:33:43] Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer. Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living. Thanks for listening! 

Rose’s Ice Cream Bliss By Rose Levy Beranbaum Intro: Welcome to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York city, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I'm Rose Levy Beranbaum, and my latest cookbook is Rose's Ice Cream Bliss.Suzy Chase: For more Cookery by the Book, you can follow me on Instagram. If you enjoy this podcast, please be sure to share it with a friend. I'm always looking for new people to enjoy Cookery by the Book. Now on with the show. If you're a serious baker, you've probably heard of Rose Levy Beranbaum. After all, she's written the bibles on baking, the Cake Bible, the Pie and Pastry Bible, the Bread Bible and the Baking Bible. Plus other cookbooks and Rose's Ice Cream Bliss happens to be your 12th cookbook, and it's not focused on baking. So what's the inspiration behind this cookbook?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Well, to start with, my favorite thing is baking bread. I'm known more for cakes, and of course I love pies, but the thing I love to eat most is ice cream. So one day I woke up and I thought, why don't I do an ice cream book, and what fun it will be to test all the recipes and to develop new ones. That's how it happened.Suzy Chase: So I'm curious to hear about your first memory of ice cream.Rose Levy Beranbaum: Interestingly, it was one of the few things, of course, I liked to eat. I wasn't a big eater as a kid, and who doesn't like ice cream? So if I was willing to eat anything happily, it was ice cream. And I remember it was in the summer where we went to my great uncle's hotel in the Borscht Belt, and there was a little truck that would come by and there were those Dixie cups that had half chocolate, half vanilla. But what I remember most interestingly, is that it came with a little wooden spoon at the top. Now the spoon is plastic. But there's something about the wooden spoon and there's some flavor from the wood that made it tastes special or more special. And I miss that.Suzy Chase: Why should we make our own ice cream?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Oh, there's so many reasons, but most of all, you can make it the way you want it to be if you follow some of my little tips. But there are things that keep the ice cream that's shipped to supermarkets, when it goes through or freeze and thaw process, forming crystals, ice crystals. And as I'm sure you've noticed, some even the best brands and supermarkets are sometimes icy especially in the summer when it goes through more of a freeze thaw. But it's minimized by using some of those powders and various emulsifiers that prevent it. When you make your own ice cream, you can use the best quality ingredients and you don't have to use those extra things that keep it safe so to speak.Suzy Chase: You weren't starting from scratch when it came to writing and testing ice cream recipes because you had over a dozen recipes in the Pie and Pastry Bible and the Cake Bible. Talk a little bit about the process of developing new ice cream flavors for this cookbook.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I'm not creating things that nobody's ever done before. It's just the way in which I make them and write about them that's different. And one of the things was the black raspberry, which I've had commercially and liked it but didn't love it. And then when we were walking down the back road, our neighbor who invited us to pick their black raspberries allowed us to do that. I was eating them and I actually almost broke a tooth. I had to go to the dentist because black raspberries had the hardest seeds of any thorn berry that I know of. That's it, I'm never going to be eating black raspberry again. And then my mind went to, why don't I try ice cream? And now it's my favorite ice cream, one of the top favorites. So, that was where I began. But actually I began in my method of concentrating the juices long ago when I wrote an article for Cook's Magazine, and that was on apple pie. And when people would say to let the apples sit in the liquid and then throw away the liquid to keep the bottom crust from getting soggy. And I thought, what a pity to lose those juices and sugars and Apple juices. Why don't I just concentrate it down? So, that's how I decided to approach the ice creams using fruits and berries that have a lot of water content. And that's by letting it sit with the sugar, and of course, it has to be frozen first so that it releases the juices. And then, I just concentrate the liquid. And the pulp never gets cooked so it keeps its fresh intense flavor. And that's part of the way in which I create ice creams, they're smooth and creamy and don't form large ice crystals. We don't want to make sorbet, we want to make ice cream, at least if you get a book on ice cream, that's the goal. So, you don't want your ice cream to turn into sorbet. And of course, one of the major reasons it won't is not only the chilling process, but using the high proportion of cream to milk. And if people say, oh my goodness, so much cream, but it's ice cream, it's not ice milk. And I'd rather have a small amount than a much larger amount of ice cream that's icy and doesn't have a high cream content. And then of course there are the egg yolks that are nature's emulsifier. So they give not only flavor, but they also keep everything in suspension. There's just so many tricks to making ice cream but it's very easy in the end if you just follow a few simple things.Suzy Chase: So I have to mention that your 2014 cookbook, The Baking Bible just had an emergency reprinting due to the quarantine. Did you see that coming?Rose Levy Beranbaum: I wonder how you know about it.Suzy Chase: I do a lot of research. I think I read it somewhere.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I was told that they were having an emergency reprint and I've been waiting to get some little corrections done and last reprint went back so fast that I never got to make them. So that's the only person I've discussed this with, she said, and I guess it's because everybody's baking now, which is wonderful. I mean, that's a silver lining to this terrible situation. And she said, "You have only one day or the same day to turn around," because apparently they completely sold out. And so I did it and all the corrections were made, which I'm thrilled about. So now it's back in print I'm sure because I noticed that Amazon has gone up.Suzy Chase: Speaking of books, you kicked off your cookbook writing career with Romantic and Classic Cakes in 1981. So this was part of the Best American Cooking School series spearheaded by Irena Chalmers, who we just lost in April. Can you talk a little bit about Irena?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Oh, I would love to. I once actually bought a radio so I could hear her, because she was not on FM, she was only on am when she spoke. She was a visionary. She had those beautiful way of expressing herself, very clever. And she actually believed in me when I was just starting out. It was very hard in the 80s to launch a cookbook, well, it's not probably easier now either. I feel so lucky, it seems like a miracle to have 12 books and the 13th is on the way too. But I'm getting off Irena. She was president of Les Dames d’Escoffier when I became a member. I got to know her very well because she had the idea that if you publish a book written by somebody who has cooking classes, the chances are, the recipes will be very well tested. At the time, Cecily Brownstone who was the editor for years of Associated Press said to me, "Rose never be a typewriter cook." And I said, "What is that?" And she said, "It's somebody who types up the recipe without trying it just because they think it will work. You always have to try it. The proof is in the pudding." So Irena very cleverly thought, okay, this will be well-tested recipes, I'm at heart a writer and I would like to give detail. Everything was completely written except it was single-spaced. And she said in her amicable accent, which I wouldn't even try to imitate, "We can't work from single-spaced, we'll have to hire an editor," which cost her quite a bit of money to retype the whole thing. Ultimately, she was very happy to have all that information there. And the books, all of them went into I think a second, even the third printing. So it was a different way of publishing them because it was not available in bookstores, it was only available in gourmet stores, and specialty stores like Dean & DeLuca. And I remember Giorgio DeLuca saying to me when I very excitedly told him that I was going to have a cookbook that surely would be carried in his store, and he said, "Oh, who's publishing?" And I said, "Oh, it's Irena Chalmers." And he said, "Oh, we don't do group books." Well, guess who was the first one to order them? It was just so much snobbery involved in the whole thing. It was Milton Glaser who did the artwork. And Milton Glaser is one of most famous artists. He's still alive I think. And the only reason I'm wondering is because he would be in his 90s, that was the age of my aunt, who also went to Cooper Union, and they dated, it's just such a funny small world. So, that was a really fun project and got me started. And actually, I wrote typical style three times the amount. I didn't know that it was all part of a series, therefore it had to have the same number of pages. So, I ended up using all of it, plus maybe 10 times more for the Cake Bible. In fact, when you asked me, Suzy, what inspired me, I realized that I have ice cream in most of my books. And by the way, I know you'd be asking me this but I just can't resist mentioning that my favorite ice cream in the book in addition to the black raspberry is what I call the upside down lemon meringue pie. What made me think of it is that the egg white is made into a meringue and it's a meringue shell. And then one of the other tips that I give is using lemon curd or fruit curd. Then all you have to do is add heavy cream and a little milk, and just a little bit of sugar to balance it. So you have this upside down lemon meringue pie that is crunchy like a pavlova, crunchy but marshmallowy sticking when it's frozen, with the creaminess of the ice cream. During the photo shoot, I couldn't stop eating it. And of course we had every single ice cream there and I was eating a lot of ice cream and being careful not to overeat, but I just couldn't keep away from that upside down lemon meringue.Suzy Chase: We're celebrating National Ice Cream Month this month, and I made your recipe for Chocolate Semifreddo Seduction on page 140. Can you tell us about this rich cream?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Well, I noticed that you put it on Instagram and I was delighted because that is one of the three ice creams that doesn't need an ice cream machine, except that it isn't really an ice cream. Semifreddo is kind of like a mousse, and it's served, semifreddo means have frozen. Well, semifreddo is not something I invented, but it's something that I added to the book because I thought although technically it may not be an ice cream, it's ice cream like. And I think it's one of the most delicious ways to eat chocolate that I know. Oh, speaking of which, the white chocolate ice cream in the book, oh my God. Lisa Yockelson who wrote Chocolate Chocolate, this is a recipe she gave me. And I loved it so much I called it white chocolate ice cream bliss. The only recipe in the book that has the same name as the title because it's that special. The white chocolate gives it the most amazing texture. And then I garnished it with gold leaf just because it's like a golden recipe.Suzy Chase: Flex for gorgeous, the gold leaf flex.Rose Levy Beranbaum: This is such a beautiful book. I have to say, Erin Jeanne McDowell, who's a colleague and has written this wonderful pie book, we're planning to do Pie a la Mode, my ice cream with her pies. She did all the styling. I don't know if anybody else could have gotten how many balls of ice cream are on the cover? At least 15, maybe 20, each one in it's perfect condition.Suzy Chase: She's amazing.Rose Levy Beranbaum: Isn't she. She's from Kansas.Suzy Chase: And she's a friend in my head.Rose Levy Beranbaum: Another Kansite. Is that what you say this?Suzy Chase: I think it's Kansan, but I like Kansite.Rose Levy Beranbaum: It works. Anyhow. She said it was the hardest photo shoot that she'd ever done because of the texture of the ice cream. She kept the room so cold that I had to wear about five layers of clothes. But we were all so happy. After all, we were eating ice cream. But we all were friends. So, it was just fun, fun, fun. And I'm hoping that she'll be doing the next book too. So, that's another fun subject. What goes with ice cream best, Suzy? Can you guess?Suzy Chase: Well, I heard a little something about the Cookie Bible.Rose Levy Beranbaum: Oh, you are clever. Yes, yes. I always thought it sounded silly, Cookie Bible, but then I noticed people calling their books things like the Bagel Bible. Ever since I started this bible business, I thought, it's going to be a pretty complete comprehensive book and sounds right. So, what's going to come next. And that's also another thing that has been in all of my books. Can never resist putting a favorite cookie. But I revisited the way in which I do that. This is the thing, after doing 11, 12 cookbooks, you start looking at things differently. The whole subject interrelates and the way in which you can manipulate ingredients and understand them and the temperatures. And ice cream basically is all about temperature.Suzy Chase: In Rose's Ice Cream Bliss, your first chapter is called flavorful ice creams. It includes the most basic best loved ice creams like vanilla, mint chocolate chip and caramel. But you've included something called Turkish stretchy ice cream. Can you describe this?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Well, first of all, I have to tell you this, thanks to my grandson who went to Turkey and came back and said, you have to explore Turkish ice cream. And when I started Googling, I saw that it required the root of orchid called Salep, which wasn't legal in this country. And it's ice cream, it's incredibly stretchy. It's not so much the flavor because you don't get really a flavor from it, but you can flavor it with other things. So I started asking people, like somebody from Turkey sent me some, it got confiscated by customs somewhere along the way. I don't think he was put in prison, but anyway, he sent me a recipe book, that got through. Anyway, I finally found that you could get it from Greece and it may not be from the orchid root and maybe somehow different but it works. And my stepdaughter had said, "Well, why would you put it in the book when nobody can get the ingredients?" And I said, "Because I want them to know what it is." Well, guess what, now there are dedicated ice cream places for Turkish ice cream. I went to visit one in Brooklyn. Now I'm so glad it's in the book because it's so dramatic and it's unlike anything else you could imagine. That chewiness is just unique. Glad you asked about it.Suzy Chase: Last week I made your recipe for soft candied grapefruit peel, chanterelle on page 185. I finally remember chanterelle first in Soho and then in Tribeca. Can you talk a little bit about this?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Oh, just tell you that, that was where it took Barbara Kafka when I became madam. Barbara said that she would love to go to lunch with me. So I took her to chanterelle that was in my neighborhood. She came in her limousine. That's another great food person we've lost in recent years, by the way. And that was where I discovered those grapefruit peels that are just so succulent because they leave some of the pulp on. The rind is often bitter, the pith, but the way they do it and the way it is in this book, it isn't. At any rate, that was where Barbara gave me three wishes. And one of them was to have a cookbook, and that's when she introduced me to her editor who was Ann Bramson at the time. The other one was-Suzy Chase: Who was the editor?Rose Levy Beranbaum: Ann Bramson. She became the editor at Artisan Books and now she's retired. She was not my editor. She wasn't interested, but it got the ball rolling. She also asked me what my second wish was, and I said, to have a TV show. And she said, "You and der ganzen welt." And I looked at her in total shock and she said, "Oh," she translated it, "You and everybody else." In other words, she wanted to show too. But what shocked me was that somebody who had been the food editor of Vogue Magazine would answer me in Yiddish. There's just so many fun stories that I'm making notes to write in my memoir because I've been on the food scene since I was 23 I think it was, when there was no food scene. When I was 19 when Julia Child first had her TV show. But you'd ask a new question I didn't answer. Oh yeah. About Chanterelle. That was one of my favorite restaurants.Suzy Chase: Instead of writing up recipes in paragraph form, you opted for numbered steps and a mise en place section. I'm curious to hear about this.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I think I started doing that. Woody and I decided for Rose's Baking Basics, which every recipe has steps in it. And it sort of lent itself to have numbers for the steps in the text as well. And we were really taken with the clarity of it. It's so much easier to follow. And also if you do cross-reference, which I try to avoid, but sometimes you don't want to repeat a recipe four times, it takes too much real estate in the book. So, you can refer back to page such and such, step number, and it makes it a lot easier.Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my favorite cookbook. Aside from this cookbook and your others, what is your all time favorite cookbook and why?Rose Levy Beranbaum: You mean one that's not mine, right?Suzy Chase: Yes.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I remember when somebody once asked what you'd take to a desert Island. And Paula Wolfert said my own cookbooks. Why didn't I think of that, because I love her cookbooks. My favorite one of all time has to be Julia Child because she was my inspiration. If somebody wants to ask me who is my greatest mentor and I would say Madame Curie because she was an investigative scientist and that's how I approached baking. But she didn't write cookbooks. So my favorite cookbook, definitely my favorite cookbook author of all time is Julia. And I remember I actually called about agents and she said I don't use agents. She was always willing to give advice. And at one point she said to me, this is going to be my last book because cookbook writing is so lonely. People assume that if you're a writer is because you're an introvert, that you love being alone. But it's absolutely not the case in every case and every situation, and Julia was very outgoing, and I am too. But when you write, you pretty much have to write alone. And ultimately, she started doing books with other people and she had Stephanie Hersh as her assistant, and I have Woody, which makes all the difference in the world. In fact, I could not have written 12 books if Woody hadn't come aboard and moved from Minnesota because it's impossible to do that kind of vigilance on your own. You need another person, you need the back and forth and the input. I'm blessed to have that. When I want say I wouldn't have written 12, it's not that I didn't have them in me, it's that I couldn't have, the way I write in the way I work with that precision, I could not have tested, I couldn't have had that kind of in-depth thinking without having another person who really understood what I was doing.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Rose Levy Beranbaum: That's about the only place on them these days, right? Except home. The book tour was completely canceled, but thanks for asking. Real Baking with Rose is my blog, is also my Instagram handle and probably Twitter. And Facebook, same thing, RealBakingwithRose.com or Rose Levy Beranbaum. But you have to spell Beranbaum, and that's the tricky part.Suzy Chase: Let's do this together. It's B-E-R-A-N-Rose Levy Beranbaum: A, because people always want it to be an E, it's an A as in Apple, N Nancy, B-A-U-M.Suzy Chase: Well, gosh, it was truly a treat to chat with you today and I cannot thank you enough for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Rose Levy Beranbaum: I thank you, Suzy. It's really great to get to know you and I'd like to know more about what you doOutro: Subscribe over on CookerybytheBook.com, and thanks for listening to the number one cookbook podcast, Cookery by the Book.

Meet Krystal Joy Brown. A drop dead gorgeous dynamite powerhouse who before Corona hit was starring in Hamilton on Broadway. During Quarantine, she like many, after being bombarded with horrific consecutive murders and violence against the black community decided enough was enough. She decided to organize her very own rally dedicated to celebrating all Black Lives and specifically our friends in the Black Trans community. She started by researching what her rights to assemble were, and somehow piece-mealed her very own giant BLM/pride parade. Because of Corona, she couldn't get a parade permit, but that didn't stop her. Instead she found police mediators so on the day she could handle whatever problems may come up with the fact she built a full stage and sound system in the middle of Time Square and then led almost a thousand people down 7th Avenue ( in the middle of the street!) with a marching band all the way until we got to Stone Wall Inn. IT WAS MAGIC. Incredibly organized, full of love and color and cheer. There were crafting stations were you could make your own signs, tons of snacks and drinks and tons of Broadway performers doing spoken word poetry, songs and dance that brought me to tears. Everyone was wearing masks and there were people walking through the parade squirting hand sanitzer randomly on you.  You could also get free Conona and HIV tests before we started walking. It was just everything. I was so impressed.  Once we got to the legendary Stonewall, there was another sound system set up and we had a full blown dance and block party with some of the best trained Voguers I've ever seen. Now I'm a good dancer, but they literally were so good, all I could do was watch and fan them. It was a true testament to what one woman can do with a ton of chutzpah and a little bit of elbow grease. WE CAN ALL DO THIS. Don't get complacent. The time is now, donate, rise up, speak your truth, educate yourself and we have a tiny shot and maybe, just maybe, reshaping this world into a place that's more equitable for everyone.  THANK YOU KRYSTAL!! Check out: www.claimmorespacenow.com www.broadwayforracialjustice.com www.thekjb.com @Krystaljoybrown on instagram  Music: Hell You Talmbout ft. Wondaland Artist Collective The Best is Yet to Come - Mr. President  Follow me!  @Drznightingale  www.zoenightingale.com 

In March 2020, I graduated from The Life Coach School as a certified life coach. I planned to officially announce that fact through a podcast. But, it didn't feel right. I was still uncomfortable with this new title. So, I took some time to explore what a coach meant to me and if I truly wanted to become one. That was around episode 40 of my podcast. This is episode 60. It took that amount of time to work through some challenges with my beliefs surrounding my work. But, I did the mind work. I started getting coached each week. I started coaching individuals and groups. I started to see my thinking shift. Now I'm ready to say it with full confidence that this is the work I'm meant to do. My name is Rebecca Clark. I am a life coach that helps you follow that deep desire you have to step into your best work. If you are ready, let's talk.

Catherine Ingram joins Tahnee on the podcast today. Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher and former journalist specialising in empathy and activism. Catherine is the author of several books including; In the Footsteps of Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything, and the long-form essay “Facing Extinction.” Catherine has published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the 1980s and early 1990s with leading thinkers and activists of our time. Catherine and Tahnee take a deep dive today, sharing a beautiful conversation around the philosophical landscape of activism, empathy, Buddhism, dharma practice, mindfulness and sensitivity. Tahnee and Catherine explore: The mindfulness industry and how it is often misguided. The 1970's Dharma movement. Catherine's experience of Buddhist meditation and philosophy. The nature and burden of sensitivity - "if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention" - Catherine Ingram The relationship between grief and love. Activism, empathy and compassion. The themes of Catherine's essay; Facing Extinction. The Resilient Byron project.   Who is Catherine Ingram? Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher with communities in the U.S., Europe, and Australia. Since 1992 Catherine has led Dharma Dialogues, which are public events that encourage the intelligent use of awareness within one’s personal life and in one’s community. Catherine leads numerous silent retreats each year in conjunction with Dharma Dialogues. Catherine is president of Living Dharma, an educational non-profit organisation founded in 1995. Catherine has been the subject of numerous print, television, and radio interviews and is included in several anthologies about teachers in the West. A former journalist specialising in issues of consciousness and activism, Catherine is the author of two books of nonfiction, which are published in numerous languages: In the Footsteps of Gandhi: Conversations with Spiritual/Social Activists (Parallax Press, 1990) and Passionate Presence: Seven Qualities of Awakened Awareness (Penguin Putnam, 2003); and one novel, A Crack in Everything (Diamond Books, 2006). In February 2019, Catherine published the long-form essay “Facing Extinction” as a free link, an essay she updates every month as new data emerges about the crises we face. Over a fifteen-year period beginning in 1982, Catherine published approximately 100 articles on empathic activism and served on the editorial staffs of New Age Journal, East West Journal, and Yoga Journal. For four years Catherine also wrote the Life Advice column for Alternatives Magazine based in Oregon. Since 1976, Catherine has helped organise and direct institutions dedicated to meditation and self-inquiry and, more recently, human and animal rights. Catherine is a co-founder of Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts (1976). Catherine also co-founded the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO) in The Hague, Netherlands (1991) and is a member of the Committee of 100 for Tibet. For six years (1988-1994), Catherine served as a board director for The Burma Project, dedicated to raising international awareness about the struggle for democracy in Burma. Catherine is currently serving on the board of Global Animal Foundation, which works on behalf of the world’s animals.   Resources:Catherine's Website Catherine Facing Extinction Essay In The Deep Podcast Coronavirus: Courage and Calm PodcastCatherine's Books The Resilient Byron Project   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:01) Hi everybody and welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today I'm really excited to have Catherine Ingram here. She's the author of several books. Footsteps to Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything and this incredible essay called Facing Extinction that you can find online. We'll link to it in the show notes. Catherine's an amazing former journalist as well so she's spoken to so many wonderful people and it seems to be this real emphasis on compassion and humanity and activism and empathy. And I know she's published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the '80s and '90s. I don't know if those are all available online, Catherine, but maybe people can have a little dig. Since '92, Catherine has been leading international retreats and public sessions known as Dharma Dialogues. I've been fortunate to go to some of those in Lennox and in Byron Bay. They're just really beautiful ways to check in and connect to this deeper meaning and purpose of life and our own inner compass toward well being. Our passions and all those kinds of things. She's also served on the board of numerous human rights organisations, as a board member of Global Animal and also is part of a newly founded organisation called Resilient Byron, which I'm excited to talk to her about today.   Tahnee: (01:19) Catherine, so busy. I know you're going to be doing some Dharma Dialogues online digitally, which is really exciting as well. Thanks so much for being here today. We're really excited.   Catherine Ingram: (01:32) Thank you for inviting me.   Tahnee: (01:33) So we've been touching on a lot of big themes lately on the podcast, which I think this time obviously takes us all deeper into ourselves for sure. I know that a lot of your work has focused on these big themes. Has that been something that you've been interested in forever or were you more drawn into these things over time? Can you give us a little sense of how Catherine becomes Catherine?   Catherine Ingram: (02:01) Well I fell into the study of Buddhist meditation from a pretty young age. I started doing retreats, attending retreats in 1974 and it became basically my world. I helped found a big centre in Massachusetts called Insight Meditation Society, which is one of the famous mindfulness centres in the world. But at the time, we were just this ragtag band of hippies. It was a very small scene in those days. Really small. We all knew each other, everywhere. I know a lot of the very famous mindfulness teachers, the older ones. They're old friends. I was in that study and in that practise and in that organisation for 17 years until about '91. Along the way, I became interested in how does a mindful life or an empathic life or a life based on loving kindness, how does it show up for anybody else? It's all well and good that we're all having a fine time but how does it matter in the world?   Catherine Ingram: (03:11) That became a focus for me in journalism. I decided to become a journalist in order to have access to what I considered the people who could be my teachers, my mentors in that new field of study, that is activism with a consciousness or empathic base. I thought to myself, why would any of those people want to talk with me or hang out with me? And I thought, well they would if I were a journalist and if I could publish their words. So I became a journalist, I kind of backed into it with a side motivation, which was, I wanted access [inaudible 00:03:50] I wanted to study with.. And that's what it gave me. So for the next 12 years, I focused entirely on that. I published, as you mentioned, many, many articles in the days... It was pre-Internet [inaudible 00:04:05] available, a few of them we did manage to scan and put online. I did that for all those years writing for print magazines and then I began having sessions myself, having meditative, initially dialogue-based meditation sessions. In other words, part of it would be silent but also it would be a dialogue format to keep people on a certain frequency, and in conjunction with silent retreats that I led all over the world. Well not in Russia. Not in Africa.   Tahnee: (04:52) Not in every single country on the planet.   Catherine Ingram: (04:56) Not every country. Not even every continent but I did that and still do, although we're in lockdown at the moment. Yeah, I've been focused on these matters, the confluence of activism and empathic action that has a dedication to the greater good. It's always been important to me. I remember long ago, I heard a Tibetan teacher talk about the two wings of the bird. One is wisdom and one is compassion and that it can fall off... I'm sorry, no, that got... That's how a bird flies. But I've heard other teachers talk about wisdom and compassion being like two different types of temperament and I've always thought, how can there be wisdom without compassion? It doesn't make sense. How can there be any kind of wisdom that doesn't include compassion? Since I was quite young in my career, I've always wanted the understanding that your awareness includes and is expansive. I'm a bit allergic to systems of thought and philosophy that are very self motivated. Self improvement, self wellbeing.   Tahnee: (06:33) You must love Instagram. Just kidding.   Catherine Ingram: (06:36) I don't use Instagram and I'm also [inaudible 00:06:38] social media in general, though I'm forced to a little tiny bit because we have to-   Tahnee: (06:44) Necessarily evil unfortunately.   Catherine Ingram: (06:46) Exactly, yeah. That's why I don't have an Instagram account.   Tahnee: (06:51) Could I just quickly... I just want to grab on that because this is honestly my biggest bugbear with how even mindfulness and all of these things have been taken and turned into almost competitions or ways of making yourself better than somebody else.   Catherine Ingram: (07:07) It's so co-opted and it's gotten corporate. I mean the Buddha would roll over in his grave if he had one. Yeah, it's really devolved over the years, I have to say. It's kind of tagged onto everything you can think of. It's very, very different than what I knew it to be back in the day. I studied with a lot of the older Asian teachers who've all since died. It was a very monastic scene back in those days but now it's a very different animal. I have to say though, there are other ways of understanding presence and how to use your attention and in those ways of understanding and of deep immersion, it would be anathema to your spirit to co-opt that understanding and use it for any kind of mercenary production. I think that there are ways to understand a dharmic life and to live a dharmic life and, as I say, use your mind and your heart in ways that in at least the original Buddhist teachings and language, it would be totally commensurate with all of that.   Tahnee: (08:53) So I mean, how do you get to Buddhism? I mean, I don't know exactly how old you are but I assume it wasn't readily available to study Buddhist practice. No.   Catherine Ingram: (09:09) Very obscure in those days. What happened though was this Tibetan teacher named Trungpa Rinpoche came along and he had been living in the UK. He was an exile from Tibet. He'd been living in the UK and he was a very hip... He was young and he was extremely hip and very interested in Western culture and in Western arts and all kinds of arts and he founded something called Naropa Institute in Boulder, Colorado in 1974 and he gathered there, all of the biggest named teachers of the day. Now they were still obscure and they had relatively small scenes, each one individually, like Ram Dass and all these people. Even though eventually that became a much larger scene, it wasn't at the time, and some of the big name Buddhist teachers who were unknown, totally unknown in those days, they were invited. He managed through his scene, his students, to get hold of all these people and gather them in this one spot to found this Buddhist university called Naropa Institute and I heard about it and I went. I decided to attend and I was 22 years old and I was in Europe. I was actually going to India, I thought. I was in Europe travelling around on my way to India.   Catherine Ingram: (10:38) I didn't know what I was doing exactly. I wanted to go find a teacher in India but I heard about Naropa and I thought, all these teachers are going to be right there in one place in my own country. I should go there. It's a long, long story. That story alone of being there that summer, in the midst of all of that. Like imagine, I used to-   Tahnee: (11:00) Be wild.   Catherine Ingram: (11:02) I use this way of describing it. Imagine like a Burning Man but that was only about Dharma and only about philosophy and only about these deeper arts. That's what it felt like for a whole entire summer. 10 weeks. That was a real turning point because there I met my whole community and I fell into a particular strain of the... There were so many different types of teachings there. They weren't all Buddhist. There were just a few of the Buddhists. There was [inaudible 00:11:34], the Tibetan Buddhists, the Zen Buddhist and then this tiny little scene led by Joseph Goldstein. He had a class, a tiny, little, dinky class called the essential Buddhism. Hardly anyone came but I walked into his class and I just felt at home. He was my teacher and also later on, my boyfriend. So that's how I began Buddhist practise. I became incredibly immersed in those teachings, especially I heard the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, the truth of the unsatisfactoriness of existence and I just thought, sign me up. I get it. Anyway, that was my world for a long time. I basically just went from retreat to retreat. I was one of the managers of the retreats. I helped found the centre, as I said, that we did in 1976.   Catherine Ingram: (12:44) I went to Asia. I finally did go to Asia after that first attempt. I went overland from Italy to India in a time when you could still do that and I was gone for... We were all over Southeast Asia studying in different temples with different of our teachers. I did that for a year. I went back many, many times to India. I went to India 10 times over the next 20 years. It was a whole... What to say, you could write a book on just that. Or I could, I guess.   Tahnee: (13:24) Well I think that's the dream. I know in this area. There's so many young people looking for that authentic, and I'm using air quotes but the authentic experience, which I mean really that generation of yours was, there were so many socio political and cultural reasons that those experiences were able to be had.   Catherine Ingram: (13:47) We were in a moment in history where our music was all about that. It was a whole, it was a zeitgeist that was happening among the counter culture but it wasn't as huge as people think. Certainly not the dharma slice of it but what was called the psychedelic generation, it wasn't as ubiquitous as people think but it was powerful and we all knew each other and hung out with each other. It was a really great, great time and then I fell into having my own sessions, as I said, and that's been really wonderfully rich. Just the intimacy of that and sharing a dharma life with people and having those kinds of conversations, I feel so privileged because I feel like I have of what you might call deathbed conversations but they're not on the deathbed, although sometimes. It's basically... Well the name of my podcast channel is In The Deep.   Tahnee: (14:57) You go there.   Catherine Ingram: (15:01) It just feels like you can stay on a certain channel of a shared frequency that is in the deep. I find that's, for me, the most satisfying kinds of conversation.   Tahnee: (15:19) Have you found it hard to integrate... Again, I'm using air quotes, a real life with that kind of desire for that deep connection? I've heard you speak in Dharma Dialogue that your family were not... They were quite conservative, I think, if I'm remembering correctly. Have you found it difficult to connect back to your lineage and to the real world? Because you do inhabit this space that is not... There's a dearth of this kind of communication in our culture. People don't want deep. They want instant news and 24 hour Fox.   Catherine Ingram: (15:57) That is why I always sought out the quieter places, the quieter minds, you could say. Those kinds of conversations and the power of sangha, of the dharmic community. I've always gravitated to that kind of crowd. In the work that I do, by definition, that's the kind of conversation... What I do is called Dharma Dialogues and so I have certainly my fair share of that kind of interaction and I spend a lot of time alone in quiet. I live a very retreat-like life. When I do have conversation, it tends to be about the deeper matters. It's not that we always have to be philosophical or anything. I mean, I'm happy to talk about the latest drama that we all might be watching. I enjoy that tremendously but because I don't have a lot of chit chat possibility in my life really, because I live alone, and my work is about this in the deep conversation, the conversations I do have tended to be in the nature such as the one we are having now, about what matters and what are the priorities and how does one live? What structure of life in your creative expression do you want to offer? That's been a very fortunate component.   Catherine Ingram: (17:50) Regarding my family and of course other people in our lives that we may not be on the same page with, I've learned over the many years to just find points of connection that we do connect on. They can be very ordinary things and that's fine. I love ordinary also. I frame it and I spoke about it in my book Passionate Presence, as finding the language of the heart that you can intuit, you can sense, especially if you're quiet inside, you can sense the language that someone might be able to hear and you try to stay on those topics. Just as you do instinctively, as we all do instinctively when, say, we're with a child and whether it's a five year old child or a 10 year old child, you adjust your language a bit, or someone who you sense is highly intelligent but is speaking... English is their second language and they're not super fluent in it so you adjust. Instinctively you adjust how you're speaking so that they'll understand all your words.   Catherine Ingram: (19:15) It's like that. You just have a radar that is sensing. The whole purpose of the conversation is to meet in the heart. It's not to just impose your great opinions.   Tahnee: (19:35) That really makes me think because so many people are like, they need to change, the world needs to change and so often, it's us, sadly that needs to change.   Catherine Ingram: (19:48) [inaudible 00:19:48] though, that way.   Tahnee: (19:52) I mean I think about my own family and I remember reading a Ram Dass book and he was talking about coming home from India to see his father and he had to stand side by side with his father and all he wanted to do was tell him all these truths and what he learned and his dad just needed him to stand there and help him make a pie or whatever and he said, "All I could do was just love him," and in that his dad softened and changed and they found commonality. I think so often we come to each other with our agenda.   Catherine Ingram: (20:23) Yeah, Ram Dass used to tell another story, which was that a woman wrote to him and said, "I'm about to go home for Christmas and I don't get along with my family that well and I know that they judge me about what I'm doing and they think I'm weird." Anyway, I don't know what he said to her but anyway, she went off to her family holiday and when she got back she wrote Ram Dass a letter and said, "My family hates me when I'm a Buddhist but they love me while I'm a Buddha."   Tahnee: (20:52) That's so beautiful. Isn't that the truth? I remember hearing you speak that you've almost stepped away from Buddhism and that whole scene in a way because it was that identification with... Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I-   Catherine Ingram: (21:10) No, I did step away from it completely. I'm so happy for that training and for those years and for the wonderful friendships. It was a whole evolutionary phase of my life but I wouldn't at all call myself a Buddhist. I don't have any kind of... There was a guy in the States, his name was Abbie Hoffman, he was a great activist back in my era. He died a long time ago. Kind of young when he died but he was a very famous radical activist in the '60s and he had a great line, "All of the isms are wasms," which I really related to. I don't have any isms that I'm adhering to. I have come to realise that Gandhi, the story of his... I'm sorry. His autobiography is called The Story Of My Experiments with Truth, and I feel that I've just been making my own experiments with truth and I don't claim as true with a capital T. I would say it's my experiments with truth, my experiments of what has made sense to me, what works, what has been consistently true for me in my experimentation about what is...   Catherine Ingram: (22:29) Like we've been saying, what is the way through? What is the dharmic line, thread of harmony through this rocky road called life? That's been, for me, I have been exposed to so many kinds of teachings, beautiful teachings over the years. Whether in literature, I love great literature... I mean, you can have profound experiences just by reading some of the great works of literature, and movies too. Movies have shaped my consciousness.   Tahnee: (23:09) Art, right? It's every... Humans have created that to tell stories since-   Catherine Ingram: (23:15) That's right.   Tahnee: (23:17) Yes, there's the vortex of, some of it is commercial and corporate and manipulative but I think so much of it is truth. Like you say, little 't' truths. Someone trying to capture what's true for them through their art form.   Catherine Ingram: (23:33) Yeah and what's so beautiful about all of that, and music, my goodness, music... What's so amazing about that is that's like our humanity is so... It's so sensitive and so universal in each of us. I mean it is why music translates to everybody, pretty much, that sometimes someone comes along and just in their own innocent, true expression, taps a chord that just reverberates through not only their own time but down through the ages. I'm always listening for those chords, however I can find them, whether in dharma circles and great works of philosophy and teachings from all different traditions but also in all these art forms and also just in-   Tahnee: (24:39) Life.   Catherine Ingram: (24:39) No, I mean in watching animals. You mentioned that I'm part now of a group called Global Animal, which is actually an animal rights organisation. I have been involved with human rights a lot in the past. Now I've switched over to the animals. The other animals, I should say. We are animals as well. Anyway, I'm just continually blown away by the tenderness and the emotional intelligence of animals, especially mammals, of course. It's all of these ways, all of these portals of wisdom that come across the transom of your mind that some minds just are looking for those, have incredible receptors for those, have neurological receptors for those kinds of channels and those kinds of bits of information and I think one can, in a sense, train the awareness to look for those.   Tahnee: (25:51) That was going to be my question because I mean, I feel like I... I sometimes try and nut this out in my head and I don't get very far. I remember as a child being very sensitive and open and then kind of going through a science phase and a cynical phase, I suppose, in my early 20s and I feel like I've come full circle back to this very sensitive place but I have, I think, now the capacity to handle it. In reading your essay especially, the one on facing extinction, I speak to so many people about this in my community and it's this sense of, it's too much and I can't carry it. The sensitivity I have, it's a burden instead of a gift. I've found, for me, refuge in stillness and quiet and all the things you were talking about. Aloneness. Nature for me is a huge part of it and why I choose to live here and I've heard you say the same about moving to Lennox. Is there ways you've seen people grow into their sensitivity and their perceptiveness/ because I think these people, they're so required right now. Those empaths and those people that feel it all. I don't know how to help them. It's like, you just have to keep going.   Catherine Ingram: (27:20) Yeah, it's a conundrum. It's a great question. It's not one I have a clear answer on in that the sensitivity comes with the deepening and widening awareness. It's a challenge because the more sensitive you are, the more subject to feeling the sorrows of the world and of the people you love and you as a young mother-   Tahnee: (27:49) Many feelings.   Catherine Ingram: (27:53) Yeah. The problem is, you kind of can't help it. You can't really help it if you're someone who feels very, very deeply and you notice things and you have natural empathy. Now I think people do shut down. They harden their hearts. They put blinkers on. They're essentially armoured because they're frightened and feeling too deeply is just too painful for them but I don't see any way around if you're paying attention, if the awareness is widening, which in a way it does on its own but like I said, you can sort of direct it, train it more to look for wisdom wherever you can find it and that includes ways to let go and to try to be strong. If that's how you're built then sorrow comes with it. Just as I sometimes say, if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention. All of these happiness programs, they just make my skin crawl. Be happy and real happy and happy happy.   Tahnee: (29:23) Uhg! And they've coerced Buddhist, the dharma teachings. I mean, I'm on social media, unfortunately in some ways and I see this stuff and I just think... I mean, one of my teachers calls it the bandwidth. We want to be able to feel a spectrum of things and just to expect that it's just happy and sunshine, rainbows, lollipops all the time is-   Catherine Ingram: (29:50) Yeah, I often say, have said for 30 years that we live on a spectrum of feelings and on one end is deep suffering and sorrow and sadness and depression and all kinds of things and at the other is incredible joy. We live on that spectrum. And that to shut down one end also shuts down the other. So some people want to play it safe and go right into the middle, don't feel too much on either side. You shut down any... Like basically grief is connected to love. That's why we grieve is because we love, like I said in my essay. So if you're going to give up, if you're so afraid of grieving, then you really can't invest in your love. You're going to be at risk. So that's what we've got here as human creatures. I think in this time, where the world has stopped, even though it's starting to move about a bit more, but I think a lot of people have reset their priorities and have understood perhaps in ways they never understood. But for many of us who've been looking at these things and feeling into them, we've understood them more deeply. That this life that we are so privileged to be living, it really never had any guarantees. We kind of drifted into an illusion in our rich cultures of just, you know, kind of having a party. I mean just going along.   Catherine Ingram: (31:33) Just get what you want. Go where you want. Study what you want. Go here. Flit there. So we've just been having a grand old time and now we're confronted with our entire way of life has not only changed for now but it's changed and probably it's going to stay changed. It's going to get more and more challenging. I believe we're headed into a cascade of crises. The coronavirus crisis is going to perhaps be the kickstart. But we've got all the big ones waiting. The worse ones are waiting in the wings. They're cooking away in the background. We haven't been talking about them as much during this one. But they're going along. They're going a pace. Unlike this one, which might have some mitigation to it, I don't think those other ones do. So I think what we're facing is a lot more letting go and a lot more needing to find empathy and understanding and getting way closer to the ground in terms of how we live simply. I don't know if you've noticed this but I have... I've just not been spending money on pretty much anything except food and paying the utilities-   Tahnee: (33:05) Yeah the things you have to pay.   Catherine Ingram: (33:08) [inaudible 00:33:08] monthly charges and I'm grateful to be able to do that. I've seen, gosh, even though it's kind of stripped down, those are really essential things. Food and having the water come on when you turn it on.   Tahnee: (33:26) Basic necessities. Yeah well it's definitely... I mean again a theme I'm really witnessing is a move toward... So we've just put in a chicken coop, which we started before all this happened but it didn't get finished until the middle of all of this. I contacted a breeder for the chickens. I was looking for a heritage breeder. He said, "The pandemic hit and I've sold out." He said, "I've sold every chicken I have until October." He's like, "Everyone's gone self-sufficient." I was like, "Well wow, that's crazy." I've noticed all of these permaculture people are offering courses on sustainable backyard gardens and farming. I'm like, "That's so great that people are starting." If that's one of the, I guess, impacts of this on a micro level, that people start to think-   Catherine Ingram: (34:17) It's a great benefit because things are still kind of holding together. We're not in massive drought or fires or some [inaudible 00:34:26] war thing happening over resources. We're basically just told to stay in our homes. The skies are blue and the waters are clear. The earth is actually breathing a great sigh of relief in having us stopped. So it is a perfect time to learn those kind of basic life-   Tahnee: (34:47) Life skills.   Catherine Ingram: (34:49) [inaudible 00:34:49] yeah.   Tahnee: (34:50) That's something... I mean I copied a quote out of your essay, which was, "On the last day of the world, I would want to plant a tree." I nearly cried when I read that. I'm nearly crying now because I think that's something, when people feel the overwhelm and the kind of impact of what is going on on a more macro level, they just become numb. Business as usual I suppose carries on. I think it's... To think that even if the world was coming to an end, we would still make an offering that we would not live to see come to fruition I think is-   Catherine Ingram: (35:28) But just to be clear that wasn't my quote. I quoted that.   Tahnee: (35:30) No sorry. It was Merwin. But you quoted it and I mean, all the quotes you chose for that were really beautiful. But that one, I just really... Because I think I've definitely... I studied environmental science for a year and a half at university.   Catherine Ingram: (35:46) [inaudible 00:35:46].   Tahnee: (35:46) I really struggled with... You were either angry and like trying to cut off from the world and go off the grid and disappear or you were kind of apathetic and well, "It's all going to happen anyway. Humans are a virus. They should all be killed." It was like, there didn't feel like much of a middle ground but I fel like everyone was really... And even then there was the women that were like, "All the men should die. The patriarchy's the problem." Like, "None of this really resonates with me."   Catherine Ingram: (36:17) It's kind of like displaced... It's displaced grief.   Tahnee: (36:21) Yeah. When I think about the stages, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression... But then I also was recently reading that they've added another stage. Because it used to end at acceptance. Now they've added transformation into meaning. I thought... Into insight. I was like, that's so perfect because I feel like over two decades that's been my experience. I'm sure you've seen that.   Catherine Ingram: (36:44) Yeah definitely, yes. I know, I love that quote as well from Merwin and it's exactly that. You live, like my teacher [inaudible 00:36:57] once said, "Death is when the next breath doesn't come." So basically it's simple as that. You've living until then and how are you living here? How are you showing up? It still has meaning as long as we're here. It has meaning even after we're gone as well but while we're here we're part of the meaning of it. And so what do you do with your energy, your time, your attention? Your activity? Your service? So yeah, of course. I mean we've got so many beautiful examples through history of people who were in just terrible dire circumstances and who carried on and did it in grace, in beauty. So that's... I think that's the play on the board. In a way then that you're off the hook in terms of, you don't have to manipulate and try to change how it goes. Because it's going to go... This is a big juggernaut now. I mean, the thing I think people don't understand fully is that although we have changed the natural expressions of our world, we've changed them for the worse in that it's killing life, it doesn't follow necessarily that we can change them back.   Catherine Ingram: (38:31) I don't see the will in terms of the powerful players doing that anyway. But even if they would, I certainly am not convinced that if every single person woke up tomorrow and that was their full dedication for the rest of their lives, that it would save us, frankly. Because we have put things into play now that are on their own. That the warming is actually now on its own trajectory. So there may be some sort of technology that, I don't know, cools it or-   Tahnee: (39:06) That was something else I copied from your... Because I mean I guess, being of the age where a lot of my peers are really involved in conspiracy theories and the... Like it's so easy to be in that place of like, we're all pawns in a... But I mean you said something around Elon Musk is just like that nerdy guy who... And I've said this to my partner multiple times, like Bill Gates, they're just these people that they think that what they're doing is right because they don't have the self-reflect... You know they just don't have perspective to see. And you said something like, "Their intelligence is one dimensional." To paraphrase you.   Catherine Ingram: (39:51) [crosstalk 00:39:51] excellent. They do have amazing intelligence. It's just disconnected a lot from the Earth systems and from the natural systems. But it's not to say that they aren't well intended. I think they actually are well intended. They just get it from their own paradigm.   Tahnee: (40:09) Exactly and what they think is best is maybe not what we think is best. But I mean to call someone evil, I think it's a tricky line to walk. And I see that, that technology will save us and I've seen some eco-activists talk to that as well. I don't know, I just feel sinking in my gut when I read that sort of stuff because it doesn't-   Catherine Ingram: (40:33) It's just more manipulation with nature. It's just more of what got us into this mess actually. All these different green technologies and it all just feels so misguided. It's just more of the same. We have hubris, you know? This sort of, what Derrick Jensen calls the myth of human supremacy. Instead of understanding it, we've got to just cut back everything. We've got to stop. That's probably not going to save us either.   Tahnee: (41:02) And civilizations have fallen so many times through history through their own arrogance and their own excessive... And you look at nature and the plagues of locusts and they eat everything and they all die. That's the way it goes.   Catherine Ingram: (41:21) Locust plague going on right now. 160 million people are on the verge of starvation. Estimates that it's going to be double that in-   Tahnee: (41:28) Well I've been reading all this stuff. The ninth article on a page sometimes, or even you have to go a few pages deep but it's like, the food supply is gone for a lot of places. That's something I struggle with so much because I see it here and we do live in this place that's so rich in food and abundance and nature. I am privileged to go to the beach every day. I buy from a farmer's market. There are people in countries in the world right now that are really struggling and suffering and not even in... Like I know America's having a tough time but... I know India's going through it. I know Iran. I know parts of Africa are having a really tough time. It's like, how do we even help? What do we do?   Catherine Ingram: (42:12) I know. The chickens are coming home to roost in terms of what we've been doing here. We've got to really... We're going to need a lot more courage in ourselves. We've been so spoiled. It's not our own fault because we came into the spoils of our cultures. We've been reared up in this kind of abundance and calm and safety and all these things that we've just taken for granted. But now we're in a different phase. I think we're going to have to really get to that quiet sanctuary in ourselves a lot and find there a growing sense of courage and a growing acceptance and setting aside our own hubris about how long a life we should have and how much we should have and all of those things. It's hard. And yet that's... We can either accept or fight the reality. Those are our options.   Tahnee: (43:28) I guess I've heard you speak a lot about the... There's something I love about when you lead meditation and the animal nature of us. I think if we can... Because that's one of the things I think that has created so much of the drama is like we've separated ourselves so much from the fact that we are animals. We do have rhythms that flow with nature. We have needs like animals. We communicate with animals. I'm reading this great book called the Tao of Equus right now. She's talking about how horses, we've dominated them and used them for so long but now they're moving into this space of like, taking us back to connecting with ourselves and nature and just this idea that, especially through women and the wisdom held by, I guess that more feminine energy but I think everyone has the Yin and the Yang, that's definitely something I feel to be true, but like yeah, I can really feel that this is a time of... If you think about the elders and keeping the culture on track and present and like that's, I think, such a requirement of this time.   Tahnee: (44:36) You look at all the leadership, it's all men. It's all men of a certain kind of privilege and a certain type of personality type, thinking of some narcissistic leaders off the top of my head right now. I think it's that older wise woman thing that we need. I don't know if you know Helena, who's a local to this area, she might be involved in Resilient Byron with you?   Catherine Ingram: (44:58) No.   Tahnee: (45:01) Okay well she was one of the women that I first spoke to these things about. She's a bit older. She was one of the women to start the community farmer's markets here and everything. This idea of local features, you know, like that we have to look for leadership and strength and resilience in our own communities. And then build on that. To me, that's something I'm really craving and hoping becomes more prominent. I know you're working with Resilient Byron. Is it mostly people that are out of their childbearing years or is it a mix of people?   Catherine Ingram: (45:34) A mix. We don't have a huge steering group at the moment but it's definitely a mix of ages for sure yeah. I think I'm the oldest in fact.   Tahnee: (45:46) How do you feel like age has then, I guess, brought you... Is there like a... I read this great story the other day in a book called If Women Rose Rooted. She said it's this combination of like wrath and gentleness as you get older.   Catherine Ingram: (46:04) Yes. I definitely feel that actually inside myself. I feel what's happened for me, one of the great things is you just get a lot more authentic when you get older, women. Because I think for many women, we fell into needing to be pleasers. We kind of like to please a lot. Sometimes we compromised what we really felt and what we really thought and what we wanted to do and all of those things. Because somebody else needed us to be some other way. So that's something one grows out of, which is a happy-   Tahnee: (46:44) [crosstalk 00:46:44].   Catherine Ingram: (46:48) You just get a lot more clear about... You get more savage about your time I must say. You are less inclined to spend time on nonsense or to indulge certain mind streams that you know are just going to end up in a dark alley. It has all kind of benefits along with some great disadvantages that come along. But again, it does have some beautiful silver linings.   Tahnee: (47:23) Was it like a difficult... Because I mean when did you move? Because you've been in The States most of your life, right?   Catherine Ingram: (47:29) Yeah.   Tahnee: (47:30) And then you moved out here when?   Catherine Ingram: (47:31) About [inaudible 00:47:33] half years ago.   Tahnee: (47:35) And so, was that a big shift for you, culturally and professionally and yeah?   Catherine Ingram: (47:40) That was a big shift. Massive, massive shift. To do it at the age I was as well. But I had felt for a very long time I wanted to get out of America. And that alone wouldn't have pulled me out but it was a combination of wanting to get out of there and also falling in love with this part of the world, Australia. And also New Zealand. I love New Zealand as well.   Tahnee: (48:02) Me too. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (48:04) So you kind of get both when you come in as a resident of Australia. So I just have been so grateful to be living here. Just I feel so lucky. And everybody in the states, all the people I talk with so often, everybody says, "Oh God you're so lucky." Except that one isn't living... We're living always in a context of "Yes I'm here and I'm lucky but my friends, my oldest friends and my whole family are over there." So my heart is over there as well. Not entirely. But I mean I often feel like, it feels something like it must have felt in Germany if you were a Jew and you were getting out but all your family was still there. You're never really entirely free in that regard. Now I'm [inaudible 00:49:05] and I hold things in as big a space as I can as I view them, but these feelings of course arise with a great frequency. And yeah, but I am very happy to be in this particular place. This is a paradise in any context, you know? And especially now.   Tahnee: (49:31) I know we've been really, I guess not struggling with guilt but we've been really conscious of that feeling of like, "Well, our lives haven't been deeply impacted by this." It's obviously, I guess, I feel like I'm more focused now and I'm prioritising things more. I feel like my inner journey through this has been really powerful but in terms of what my outward life looks like, I don't obviously do as many external things. But I'm still at the beach every day. I'm still going to the farmer's markets at a social distance. It's like, I'm still kind of doing a lot of the things, and yeah, it's a tricky one to imagine. Like in some ways I think having the bush fires was a really good thing for Australian's to realise.   Catherine Ingram: (50:23) I do too.   Tahnee: (50:23) Yeah like that there actually is going to be an impact. Because it's so easy when it's over there to kind of forget about it or to take-   Catherine Ingram: (50:33) Yeah well it was also somehow helpful in that we were already sort of crisis ready.   Tahnee: (50:41) Orientated. Turning toward crisis.   Catherine Ingram: (50:45) We've already gotten our crisis muscles well exercised. I mean I know people could argue and say, "Yeah well we're in crisis fatigue." But I actually think there was some benefit in terms of of a way that, first of all, that whole sense of, "Okay what's important? What matters? If my house catches fire, what is it in it that I needed even? My photographs maybe or whatever. My computer possibly." But you know, and of course then you think, one of my girlfriends, this is a little bit telling a tale out of the school but, one of my girlfriends in LA owns a Picasso. And so one time, LA gets a lot of fires. And so one time she was telling me that during one of the recent fires she had actually, she had grabbed of course her dogs and the bunny rabbit and she was trying to figure out how to get the fish. She gets everything kind of ready to get loaded into the car and then it turns out they didn't need to go. And I said, "What about the Picasso?" And she said, "I didn't even think about the Picasso." I thought, "That's so cool. The bunny rabbit made it in there before the Picasso." It's like, that's really cool.   Tahnee: (52:07) It sounds like she's got her head on straight yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (52:09) Exactly. I think a lot of us would make those choices actually. The living thing. So yeah, I think we had, through the fires, come to those kinds of recognitions. What actually does one need in a life? We're so happy because we went through all that drought, we got a big lesson in water. In water rationing and we got a huge lesson in don't take any of this for granted. So yeah, these are going to be the lessons coming forth, I do believe.   Tahnee: (52:46) It's interesting what you're... Because you said something else in the essay around... It was around Auschwitz and the people that survived were the ones that had had struggles already in their lives. I think that's something... That resilience that we build through meeting life's challenges and learning from them. I think when you look at how far our civilization has to fall compared to others, it might be that there is parts of humanity that survive because of what they've been through.   Catherine Ingram: (53:21) Already existing local resilience, doing without, living on very little, helping [inaudible 00:53:27] community. Yes. I think they're in a far better circumstance to get through this than we are because we're so dependent on a very complicated system. And we're not used to a certain kind of community sharing, which is very much what we want to start focusing on with this group.   Tahnee: (53:48) So in terms of what you are looking to create, I suppose, could you just give us the elevator pitch or some kind of sense of what the ideal outcome of this organisation would be?   Catherine Ingram: (54:01) Resilient Byron, well there's one part of it is resilient and the other part is regenerative. But I'm more interested in the resilient. I actually think we're going straight into crises one after the next. So in that conversation, it's been about starting a framework of neighbourhood units of resilience basically so that people would start focusing on their own neighbourhoods. Whatever that means to you. Whether it's your street or your particular area. And start sharing resources. We've got the Facebook page, which is serving as a kind of clearing house at the moment for just information and for people to find out about things like during the coronavirus crisis. Like where to get things you need, food or help in various ways. We're going to start having more conversations about food security, community gardens, security security. Like just how to stay safe. What about housing for people who may... Either don't have housing currently or may need it at some point.   Catherine Ingram: (55:17) So there's lots of, I mean it's really in the formative stages but we're just basically looking at lots of different ways that we're going to organise to perhaps be a system in this region that is de-linked from the national sort of federal system. I don't mean that we're going to do a political coup but rather that we're going to have a lot of local resources we're relying on. Those can be also shared with nearby like [inaudible 00:55:51] and up where you are.   Tahnee: (55:54) [inaudible 00:55:54].   Catherine Ingram: (55:58) It could be an entire Northern Rivers sort of eco-community that is helping each other.   Tahnee: (56:08) That's so exciting to me because I mean I think I can see how that becomes something that can roll out. I have a friend in Melbourne and I know, on her street, she's has food and she grows things and her neighbours do and they all trade eggs and vegetables. And just that little bit of connection with the people on your street and that's such a... It has such a profound impact on your wellbeing. That was one of the solutions you offered up in the essay was community and I think-   Catherine Ingram: (56:36) It's number one yeah. It's the number one-   Tahnee: (56:38) And what we've really done is separate ourselves. I remember living in the city and if you like smiled at somebody... I was lucky to be raised in the country where you knew everybody, which had pros and cons. Because you knew everybody. I remember being really naughty as a teenager and like the local policeman was my mum's mate and I was like, "Hey." He was like, "Oh dear." Anyway. But yeah, I think it's really, this kind of getting to know the people that we live beside every day. Just getting a sense of, well, "Yeah they're the people we lean on." Our cul-de-sac through this time has been my saving grace. I have babysitters and I have friends for my children and I have people to share stories with. It's just been... Yeah it's been such a beautiful experience.   Catherine Ingram: (57:32) That's wonderful. That's really it. That's wonderful. That's what humans have relied on through all of human history until quite recently was, you lived with your tribe. And of course as civilization so called erupted, still people lived with their tribes in a different way. They lived mostly with family or rural communities or if you lived in a city it wasn't a huge city. There weren't huge cities really.   Tahnee: (58:04) Well and even people stayed in their boroughs, you know? They didn't leave their neighbourhoods. Very infrequently. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (58:13) You'd still live within a tribe within the city. So yeah, we've gotten far from that but we can... That is one thing I think we can bring back. Well dear I should go because-   Tahnee: (58:25) Yes I was going to say, thank you so much. It's actually nearly 11:11 so that's perfect. I just wanted to say that was such a great note to end on. And also because that's something you do with the Dharma Dialogues. I always got so much... I haven't been to them in a while because you weren't doing them and then this has happened but just being around people who are able to articulate their human experience and then just the sharing and I think that's, for me, been such a balm. And also obviously your wisdom and insight. So I know you've got two weekends per month coming up. Is it through June and July that you'll be doing that?   Catherine Ingram: (59:03) I'm actually going to do it indefinitely. I'm going to start-   Tahnee: (59:05) Oh wonderful.   Catherine Ingram: (59:07) Since we're locked down I'm just going to start doing online-   Tahnee: (59:09) Great so they'll be replacing, in a way the Lennox events?   Catherine Ingram: (59:13) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:13) Okay. Fantastic. Okay well that's super exciting. Okay so those'll go up on your website soon so we can link to them and if anyone... Is it just through sign up to your email kind of thing and you'll be notified?   Catherine Ingram: (59:25) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:26) Awesome. Well thank you so much for your time. I know-   Catherine Ingram: (59:29) Thank you so much for inviting me. That was lovely.   Tahnee: (59:31) Yeah it's been really beautiful to speak with you. I'll also link to your books as well because Passionate Presence is the only one I've read but I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I really just appreciate everything you're offering because it helps people like me navigate their lives. So much love. All right Catherine well I'll hopefully see you in the flesh again one day soon. Enjoy the rest of your day.   Catherine Ingram: (59:55) And you. Bye dear.   Tahnee: (59:57) Bye hun.   Catherine Ingram: (59:57) Bye.

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Jim Polito and we discussed the reality of business security problems today, how they are getting worse and why we have to fix them.  Here we go with Jim. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: The way you do that type of cyber attack in this day and age is you don't come out and say, Hey, it's time. [00:00:11] Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here. That's S O N you'll find me online@craigpeterson.com. That was me with Mr. Jim Polito we talked about how things are much worse than we may realize. I got into real-world stuff what's happening right now to our businesses and to our homes. This is, this is something I think everybody needs to be really aware of. And maybe trying to something about it. [00:00:47]Jim Polito:  He is the man. He is the myth. He is the legend. I'm talking about our good friend and tech talk guru. Craig Peterson. Good morning, Craig. [00:01:01] Hey, next Tuesday will be our Canada day Eve edition of our visit with the tech talk guru. Oh, you didn't think I would forget Canada day. Did you? [00:01:16] Craig Peterson: No Canada got its independence kind of in 1967. I remember that when I was in elementary school and, you know, they taught us the communist song. You know, This land is your land. [00:01:28] Okay. Canadian version. And we all stood there singing it and, you know, heralding the, our fellow comrades. but yeah, comrades. Yeah. [00:01:41] Jim Polito: No, that was a Canada day. Yeah, I know. No, believe me. I, I know. Well, speaking of comrades, our comrade, the little guy, rocket man. Has assembled a shall we say an army of 7,000 highly trained, highly skilled individuals. [00:02:02] Now people may say 7,000. What, what could they do? How about bringing about an Armageddon close to what a nuclear weapon could do. Am I correct that Kim Jong-UN now has a force that could bring about Armageddon. [00:02:23] Craig Peterson: Oh, you are dead on there. Jim, this is a scary thing, frankly, you know, we think of North Korea and we, we think about all of these people who are in everything are in concentration camps, through the cities, many people out in the rural areas, infected with all kinds of diseases. [00:02:43] And I don't want to get too gross about this, but if we think of it as really a. Third or maybe fourth world country and in many ways it is. But what has been going on in North Korea is apparently they've been receiving training in China or in Russia to build this massive cyber army. When you talk about bringing about a kind of an Armageddon, it is absolutely the case. [00:03:16] Look at what's happened with the Wuhan virus shutdown that we have right now. Right. Nobody wants to get Covid-19, which makes a whole lot of sense. Right. But now what these guys and gals could potentially do is go after our power systems and other infrastructure.  If they got to the right place at the right time, they could bring our electric grid back to the 18 hundreds. [00:03:48]It could take months in order to recover. That would have. [00:03:54] Jim Polito: Yeah, no, it's bad. It's bad. [00:03:56] Craig Peterson: So, Kim Jung Un, rocket man, the little guy, while he can't develop the expertise to put together an Intercontinental ballistic missile and, he may have a bomb. Well, he's definitely got a bomb. You know, we can't put all that technology together. [00:04:17] He can go to his big brother in China. And say, teach me how to do all of this stuff. and we know that he's already really been successful. Remember, what was it? The Sony films hack after that movie, the interview came out. That was a spoof on him. And, to get even he set his dogs on a Hollywood and boy, they, they, they were effective. [00:04:44] Well, you might remember too, that the White House blamed North Korea for unleashing the Wanna Cry cyberattack back in 2017, three years ago. It was absolutely massive. It caused devastation worldwide. Now here's part of the problem with this, obviously. We don't want North Korea to be getting in and taking over systems or bringing various systems down, but they're a way you do this type of cyber attack in this day and age is you don't come out and say, Hey, it's like black lives matter. You've got people in the street who really are there, their hearts are in it. It's really because they care about black lives and, and who doesn't. Right. Behind all of these people are the Marxists who are throwing the firebombs. So we're doing various things to really stir up and foment all kinds of turmoil. [00:05:46] That's what we're seeing with North Korea because they can hop onto a computer. That's been taken over, let's say in wherever Eastern Europe, somewhere and from that computer, they hop onto a computer here in the United States. Somebody's own computer for instance and the person whose home computer they're using has no clue any of this is going on. [00:06:11] Even if they're on their computer at the time. And then they'll hop from that computer to another computer, to another computer. They'll use our computers as what are called botnets to attack our military, to attack our infrastructure. And in reality, Jim, we don't really know where it's coming from. [00:06:32] Jim Polito: Yeah. [00:06:33] Craig Peterson: Big because it's very difficult to trace. [00:06:35] Now we're talking with our tech talk guru friend, Craig, Peterson. and at the end of this segment, we'll give you a number that you can text my name to and get other information from Craig. Don't think that I'm the genius doing great show prep. He sent me the stuff about Kim Jong-UN and, and I've been reading through it and been and been quite concerned. Okay. I do sometimes hear from people. [00:06:57] Oh my God, Jim, when you and Craig talk about this stuff, you get me very concerned. Now I'm not talking about like a, business's being hacked. I'm talking about this kind of stuff, shutting down our power grid and things like that. [00:07:11] Jim Polito: Now, Craig, we have to assume that our government has a counter to this. Is it reasonable for me to assume that [00:07:24] Craig Peterson: Yeah, it absolutely is. We have first strike offensive capabilities in the cyber world and all branches of our military have Cyber teams that put the 7,000 North Korea have to shame. So we have both defensive capabilities, which frankly we're not using as much as we should because incompetence runs rampant in every field, but we also have both defensive capabilities. [00:07:57] Jim Polito: God. it's just so the real war in the future, remember that Star Trek episode where the computers. You know, there was war between the computers and the, and the enterprise was attacked and X amount of, members of their crew were supposed to walk off to be executed because, in this war games where there's no, the actual firing of weapons, the computers had determined that they had lost that the enterprise had been hit well in the room. [00:08:31] Well, I mean here with us, we're not too far away from it. [00:08:34] Craig Peterson: Yeah. That's one of my favorite episodes is called a taste of Armageddon, the original Star Trek series. And we are not in some ways very far away from that, because most countries don't want to lob a nuclear weapon. Pretty easy to tell where it came from, especially now that almost everybody can look down from space to see where it was. [00:08:55] Jim Polito: Yeah. [00:08:56]Craig Peterson: It's, it's very hard to trace, these attacks that are going on. Now, part of what Kim Jong loon apparently had done, he was able to break into some South Korean defense contractors stole about 40,000 of these things, including information on F 16 fighters and drones. Now, I, I hate to say this next part. [00:09:22] Because, you know, what I do for a living is I help businesses put their security together. [00:09:28] Jim Polito: Okay. [00:09:29] Craig Peterson: So we get calls from businesses every week and saying, Hey, you know, we've got these new CMMC regulations, which are part of the department of defense. You know, ITAR, DFARS, all these different things. we, can you come in and help us out with this and the part I don't want it to say is [00:09:50] I'm not going to say this is every time we go in but we're seeing nowadays not only a lot of attacks against these extremely small defense contractors, but I'm also not talking about the Raytheon's of the world. I'm talking about the local business that makes an assembly. That sold to a defense contractor that is sold maybe to another defense contractor and sold to the department of defense. [00:10:17] I'm not going to say that I go into these businesses and every time, but over the last, basically, since at least the beginning of the year, we have found it Chinese back doors wide open. And what's that mean? Is, yes, our defense contractors. You look at this, right. And then, apparently, North Korea bought these plans for the F 16 fighters and drones. [00:10:45] Well, how do they do that? Well, they get these back doors installed and then. Every case we have where we found these things. And in fact, we found a very small defense contractor that I had the worst infection ever seen by the Boston FBI office. And they all had antivirus software. They all had walls. They all thought the word safe. [00:11:16] Jim Polito: And they're not. Wow. [00:11:18] Craig Peterson: So you didn't hear from me, but that's the real skinny on what we're seeing out there on the streets right now. [00:11:26] Jim Polito: Okay. Yeah. this is not good. This is not good, but what you need to do. Is to protect yourself by getting the latest information. And that's by listening to the segment with Craig Peterson, but that is also getting on his list, his good list where he will not try to sell you stuff or hack you. [00:11:44] And all that you have to do is tax my name to this number (855) 385-5553. [00:11:53] Craig Peterson: So you can text Jim to (855) 385-5553. And I also answer questions. It may take me a few days. We're pretty busy, but just send an email to me@craigpeterson.com about any questions, whether you're a defense contractor or you're a home user, right. I'm helping people in their eighties every day as well. Jim. [00:12:16] Jim Polito: All right. And standard data and tax rates apply Craig. An excellent segment as usual, and we look forward to talking with you on Canada day Eve. Next Tuesday. [00:12:30] Craig Peterson: Thanks, Jim. I'll buy the Molson. [00:12:32] Jim Polito: Thanks, buddy. Bye-bye. All right. When we return a final word. [00:12:36] Craig Peterson: Awesome. All right, everybody, we'll be having a great week. We have some amazing stuff planned. this Karen and I were sitting down. Trying to figure out how can we help the most people, what's the most important thing for us to do. And we are going to be teaching that we've got all of the basics put together. [00:12:56] It's going to take us probably a couple more weeks. I know it's always a couple of weeks, right. And we're going to show you exactly. How to tell if your computer needs a little bit more security or maybe a lot more security. So keep an ear to the ground. This is going to be absolutely free training and it's coming up. [00:13:18] I Got you guys. [00:13:20] Take care. I'll be back tomorrow. Bye-bye.   ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

TRAVELOGUE THE EAST PART 2 TRAPPED The scene is the Chinese island of Chin Pau. Billy's defeated, Johnny's disappeared, and Troubadour has kidnapped Charlene. We slow fade to an unreadable Comanche warrior lounging in an opium den in the far east, discarded, disavowed, relinquished, abandoned...trapped. Dave - guitar and vocals Brian - bass, guitar, engineering, mixing Andy - drums CONSEQUENCE Consequence smolders and trembles She fills my lungs Disappears when I lose reality Maybe choke on my tongue Let's rock let's roll It feels so good to give in Reason is a tumor Live for now Because tomorrow is a rumor Let's rock let's roll Dyin' can't be too bad 'Cause life is sweet sweet death Cry havoc and surrender With a halting breath Let's rock let's roll dAVE - GUITARS AND VOCALS bRIAN - BASS, ENGINEERING, MIXING aNDY - DRUMS AND PERCUSSION DIG UP THE TRENCH My teeth feel funny and I'm alone And I am writhing white with foam Can't restore it averagely I can't freeze it illogically I can't take it it takes me I can't pay it it grates me I can't place it instantly I can't take it reverently It's it's own thing it's in my bones It's in my mind supine and prone Squirming wrongly fisting toes Just ain't stopping on it goes chorus I can't remember what it was like How food tasted and what was right Either way now It's been too long Feeling slack now but not for long chorus Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion OPIUM DEN I don't know how long that I have been here I don't know where Charlene's up and gone Last I know she said that she was pregnant A month ago last night I could be wrong I sell myself for opium here nightly My pride my self control my worth are gone I always thought I was a stronger person Now I know that I was always wrong The moon seeks to touch me from a million miles away She reaches down and holds me as my senses go away She cradles me caresses me and pushes me away Day and night and day and night and day and night and day Self hatred flows through me like a virus Send one in so I can earn my pay This one here she seems a bit familiar Do what you want to me and go away Where am I I can't stand the pain please take my life I'm wracked and vomit stained please kill me you can use my knife Haze and pain I'm doubled over where the hell am I I open my eyes see Charlene's face staring into mine I eat a mango food it seems so strange to me I'm on an island paradise I think that I can't see Charlene takes my hand and says we need no longer run I look into my arms and see I'm holding my new son Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion JUST ONE GOLDEN BULLET I beat you down and took your wife But she used me to save your life I realize she still loves you So here is what we both shall do Since she used me to find her man I still love her you understand I can make you stay or make you run Your boy and my wife and my loaded shotgun Yo di lee o di lee o o Yo di lee o di lee o di lee o Here's the thing to see with glee If you have nerve and skill like me Your brain is mushy and luck's divine Here's the game to play one time So you are weak and I don't care Just get your punk ass up from there A heartbeat stings a breath is time Relentlessly hating's abusing the shine Yo di lee o My request ain't jest it's for your life You win I lose and if I win you die I'll flip this coin made from Satan's tears And see who walks and who dies here Either way you three are dead I make my own luck is how I was bread When the tears hit the ground the pin hits the shell It's the only way truly 'fore the night be fell Yo di lee o The coin pierced the moment and shattered the sun And Troubadour stroked and caressed his shotgun The crack it then punctured the essence of fear Johnny Redfoot had shot him confusingly clear One golden bullet from Johnny's side arm The lusting of angels who never knew harm He said "saddle up we're gone with a shove The only reason for living is love." Yo di lee o O di lee o FREEDOM RIDE I don't want to stop the yacht while we got cash to burn See young Abraham he's trying to crawl from aft to stern Freedom ride Sunshine on my face love has filled me by osmosis The ocean feels me blessed consecrated by psychosis Misery begs a choice addictive just like anything Depression can feel good as comforting as anything Freedom ride Let the credits roll when the story's got a happy ending 'Cause it never lasts Freedom ride IF I COULD The touch of her hand makes me feel like a man Everything I can if I could The warmth of her breath I can attest Let's get undressed 'cause we should The taste of her lips goes to my hips Sunlight dips in her wake She is my dream you know what I mean I'm out of steam when I wake The touch of your hand makes me feel like a man Everything I can if I could The warmth of your breath I can attest Let's get undressed 'cause we should The taste of your lips goes to my hips Sunlight dips in your wake You are my dream you know what I mean Life's spring green when I wake If I could if I could if I could if I could I KNOW WHAT I GOT I was walking down this Lonesome road all by myself By myself I was living this lonesome life like anyone else Anyone else I was feeling these feelings of pain just like my brothers and sisters did I been looking for the joys of life like anyone did Anyone did Yeah I feel happy well you know it's true Cause I was lonely but then I found you Scratch my shoulder o that hit the spot Makes no difference 'cause I know what I got I was looking at my feet as they trudged along All day long And the people that I chance to meet to hear my song Hear my song I was wondering what makes birds cry what makes them sing Oh so pretty sounds Now I'm looking at the joys of life all around all around AMENDMENT 1 Love

Today’s episode discusses the paper “Randomized Comparison of the Polymer-Free Biolimus-Coated Biofreedom Stent With the Ultrathin Strut Biodegradable Polymer Sirolimus-Eluting Orsiro Stent in an All-Comers Population Treated With Percutaneous Coronary Intervention: The SORT OUT IX Trial”   Dr Carolyn Lam and Dr Greg Hundley also discuss the following: “Incidence, Microbiology, and Outcomes in Patients Hospitalized With Infective Endocarditis” by Shah et al. “Reducing Hypermuscularization of the Transitional Segment Between Arterioles and Capillaries Protects Against Spontaneous Intracerebral Hemorrhage” by Joutel et al. TRANSCRIPT Dr Carolyn Lam: Welcome to Circulation On the Run, your weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal and its editors. I'm Dr Carolyn Lam, associate editor from the National Heart Center and Duke National University of Singapore. Dr Greg Hundley: And I'm Greg Hundley, associate editor from the Pauley Heart Center at VCU Health in Richmond, Virginia. Well, Carolyn our feature article this week, we're going to dive into evaluating stent efficacy and looking at biodegradable stents and polymer free stents, and I can't wait to get to that feature. But before we do that, how about we get to other articles in our journal today? Would you like to start? Dr Carolyn Lam: You bet, Greg. So this paper describes temporal changes in the incidence, microbiology and outcomes of infective endocarditis and the impact of changes in national antibiotic prophylaxis guidelines on incident infective endocarditis in Scotland. Dr Anoop Shah from University Center for Cardiovascular Science at University of Edinburgh, and colleagues used a Scotland wide individual level linkage approach to identify all patients hospitalized with infective endocarditis from 1990 to 2014, and linked their records in national microbiology, prescribing and morbidity and mortality datasets. Dr Greg Hundley: Interesting, Carolyn. So what did they find in this study? Dr Carolyn Lam: The crude incidence rate of infective endocarditis hospitalizations increased from 1990 to 1995 but has remained relatively static thereafter with both short and long-term adjusted case fatality rates showing a steady decrease over the last 25 years. However, the incidence rate has doubled in the elderly. Importantly, there was no change in crude incidence following the 2008 change in antibiotic prophylaxis guidelines. The majority of patients with endocarditis in their cohort did not have positive blood cultures. However, in those that did have positive microbiology, staphylococcus and enterococcus conferred the highest risk for all-cause mortality. Dr Greg Hundley: Ah, very interesting. More in the world of endocarditis. Well, Carolyn, my paper is also interesting and it involves both mouse and human experiments to identify the etiology of deep intercranial hemorrhagic stroke. Now I'm not going to quiz you this week because I think you're going to want to quiz me in anticipation of some of these exciting study results. A little bit of background. First of all, the study comes from Dr Anne Joutel from INSERM and it has been thought that smooth muscle cell degeneration at the site of arterial wall rupture may be sufficient to cause hemorrhage. However, deep intracranial hemorrhages are rare in some aggressive small vessel diseases that are characterized by significant arterial smooth muscle cell degeneration. Therefore, the authors hypothesized that a second cellular defect may be required for the occurrence of intercranial hemorrhage. So to address this hypothesis, the author studied a genetic model of spontaneous deep intercranial hemorrhage in mice, and analyzed cerebral retinal micro vessels, performing genetic rescue experiments, vascular reactivity analysis, and computational modeling. And in the human experiments, they examined post-mortem brain tissues from patients that had sporadic deep intercranial hemorrhage. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow, that's a lot of work from mice to men. Well, let's start with the mice. So what did they find there, Greg? Dr Greg Hundley: Right, Carolyn. So the authors identified in the normal cerebral retinal vasculature, a novel segment between arterials and capillaries herein called the transitional segment, and that is covered by neural cells distinct from smooth muscle cells and parasites. In Col4a1 mutant mice, this transitional segment was hyper muscularized with a hyperplasia of neural cells expressing more contractile proteins, whereas the upstream arterial exhibited a loss of smooth muscle cells. Moreover, the hyper muscularization of the retinal transitional zone increased its contractility in tone and raised the intravascular pressure in the upstream feeding arterial. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow, masterful explaining, Greg. Okay. What about in the humans? Dr Greg Hundley: Well, the author similarly found that hyper muscularization of the transitional segment and focal arterial or smooth muscle cell loss in brain tissues from patients were observed in those with sporadic deep intercranial hemorrhage. Dr Carolyn Lam: Okay, so put it together for us, Greg. Dr Greg Hundley: Right. So the results suggest that hyper muscularization of this transitional segment is involved in the incurrence of intracranial hemorrhage in these studied mice, and this hyper muscularization in this zone raises the intravascular pressure in the upstream feeding arterial and promotes its rupture at the site of smooth muscle cell loss. The human data corroborate these findings indicating that these two mutually reinforcing vascular defects may represent a general mechanism of deep intercranial hemorrhage. Really interesting results. Dr Carolyn Lam: Not just interesting, but very, very nicely summarized. Thanks Greg. Well, other very interesting papers in today's issue include a research letter by Dr Tiantian Li et al, entitled Associations Between Short Term Exposure to Fine Particulate Matter and Cardiovascular Disease Hospital Admissions After Index Myocardial Infarction. A case crossover study from Beijing, China. There's also a white paper from Dr Milton Packer on the role of deranged energy deprivation signaling in the pathogenesis of cardiac and renal disease in states of perceived nutrient over abundance. This beautiful white paper presents a mechanistic framework that may explain the findings of large scale randomized trials of SGLT-2 inhibitors and the close association of ketogenesis and erythrocytosis with the cardio protective and renal protective benefits of these drugs. Interesting. There's also a series of papers on COVID-19, including an online white paper by Dr Franz Messerli on COVID-19 and renin-angiotensin blockers, current evidence and recommendations. A perspective paper by Dr Michael Givertz on the challenges in heart transplantation in the era of COVID-19. Another online paper by Dr Harsimran Singh entitled New York City innocence lost, cardiology in the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr Greg Hundley: Wow, Carolyn, this issue is just truly full of a lot of articles in addition to our original research. So I have an exchange of letters to the editor between Richard Sutton and Dr Ben Levine regarding Dr Levine's previously published tilt table manuscript. Next, Dr James Byrd from the University of Michigan offers a perspective on pausing clinical research during the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr Comilla Sasson from the American Heart Association heads a very large group of authors to provide a very nice piece on guidance for life support during the COVID-19 pandemic. Next, Professor Guilo Stefanini from Humanitas University has a research letter regarding ST elevation myocardial infarction in patients with COVID-19, both the clinical and the angiographic outcomes. And then finally, another ECG challenge from Dr Adrian Baranchuk entitled an ominous ECG sign in critical care. Well, Carolyn, what a great issue, and let's get on to that feature discussion to learn a little bit more about bio resorbable intercoronary stents. Dr Carolyn Lam: Great. Let's go, Greg. Dr Greg Hundley: Well, listeners, We're here for our feature discussion. And today we have Professor Lisette Jensen from Denmark and Dr Dharam Kumbhani from Dallas, Texas, one of our own associate editors. Lisette, could you tell us a little bit about the background for your study of intercoronary stenting and what was the hypothesis that you wanted to address? Prof Lisette Jensen: The overall background or aim for this program is that we want to have a quality control of what we put into the patients, what stent we put in, and also we wanted to do as much research as possible, and we want to do it if it's possible on a low budget. For the present study, the Sort Out IX, before we did the study, we knew that the Bio Freedom stent was doing very well with a short time of dual antiplatelet therapy in patients with high bleeding risk. At the same time, we knew that the Orsiro stent was doing very well in all common populations, we used it in Sort out VII also. We wanted to see how the Bio Freedom stent, the one you could use with a short time of dual antiplatelet therapy, how it was compared to a gold standard stent. In this study, we did not shorten the treatment time with dual antiplatelet therapy, but we followed the guidelines with six months for patients with stable angina, and 12 months for patients with acute coronary syndrome. Dr Greg Hundley: Can you just remind our listeners, what's the difference between the Bio Freedom stent and then Orsiro stent? Prof Lisette Jensen: There's several differences. The strut thickness of the two stents differs. The Orsiro stent is an ultra-thin stent strut and the Bio Freedom stent is 120 microns. Also, the Bio Freedom stent is free of a polymer, compared to the Orsiro stent where the polymer is biodegradable and is degraded in one to two years. And also the drug is sirolimus in the Orsiro stent and it is released within three months compared to the Bio Freedom stent where most of the drug biolimus is released within one month. Dr Greg Hundley: So the Bio Freedom is a stainless-steel drug coated stent, and the Orsiro stent is a biodegradable stent. So can you tell us what was the study design, and then the study population? Prof Lisette Jensen: It was a randomized trial and we enrolled 3,151 patients. They were randomized one to one, two to two stent groups, and we followed the patients. The primary endpoint was after one year, and this is what we're going to publish now in the journal, and we plan to do up to five years follow-up in the patients. Dr Greg Hundley: And what outcomes were you looking for? Prof Lisette Jensen: The primary endpoint was MACE, and that was a composite endpoint of cardiac deaths, target lesion revascularization, and myocardial infarction, not clearly related to any other segment that the index listed. Dr Greg Hundley: So 3,151 patients, so a very large study. Can you tell us a little bit about your study outcomes? Prof Lisette Jensen: The outcome was the primary end point after one year was, we saw MACE rate in the Bio Freedom treated patients was 5.0% compared to 3.7% in the Orsiro group. And the study was designed as a non-inferiority study, so with these numbers, Bio Freedom stent did not meet the criteria for non-inferiority.   Dr Greg Hundley: And were there any particular patient populations or subgroups where you saw differences in performance from one stent versus the other? Prof Lisette Jensen: We looked into several predefined subgroups, which are also in the paper as figure three where we did a force plot, and in all the pre-specified subgroups, including indication for PCI, acute coronary syndrome or stable angina, young patients, old patients, diabetic, non-diabetic, gender, we did not see any significant difference. Dr Greg Hundley: Well, Dharam, I'd like to switch over to you a little bit. Can you help us put this study in perspective to the other world's literature related to intercoronary stenting? Dr Dharam Kumbhani: You know, one of the biggest advantages of the way they enroll patients is they tend to be a lot more inclusive than many of the other trials that are done. So typically isn't all common population. So, now and again, I think it was an important trial because as she just outlined, it compares the Bio Freedom stent, which is a polymer free stent to a biodegradable stent. And this was really the first comparison of this Bio Freedom stent with a more contemporary stent that is used in clinical practice. There have been a couple of other trials like the industry three and industry two trial which have compared it with bare metal stents. We know that this stent has a better performance than that, but when you compare it with, especially the thin struts or Orsiro, the latest in this class of DES, it is the thinnest strut, one of the thinnest strut stents that is in the market. The strut thickness, we know it really correlates quite well in stent restenosis. I think this really helps move the field forward in terms of having data available for this comparison, and it suggests that perhaps in this kind of pragmatic design, that this Bio Freedom stent did not necessarily in the timeframe that they studied, meet the criteria for non-inferiority compared with the Orsiro stent. So I think there's still valuable insight. The stent is not yet approved in the US. None of the Bio Freedom stents are available in the US. This is CE Mark, but not available in the US. So I think this does add to the overall body of literature for this group of stents. Dr Greg Hundley: I would like to ask you both, perhaps one at a time. Lisette, you first. What do you see is the next research study that needs to be performed in this field? Lisette. Prof Lisette Jensen: Can I just give one more comment to what Dharam mentioned with the restenosis, because that was actually what we saw in the Sort Out IX. We had a higher rate of the target lesion revascularization rate in the Bio Freedom stent group, so the efficacy was less. It could be because of the bigger stent struts, pushing us in a direction where we should use stents with thinner stent struts. And also we saw that the safety did not differ as we saw the equal number of stent thrombosis within one year. I think what we should do next is maybe we should continue to work on the thin stent struts, and then also for the patients, the bleeding matters a lot. So it should be better to reduce the bleeding time to develop devices where we can reduce the treatment time for dual antiplatelet therapy. Dr Greg Hundley: Very good. Dharam, your thoughts? Dr Dharam Kumbhani: I would definitely agree. I think one of the most appealing aspects of this group of stents, because they don't have polymer, the ability to shorten the duration of antiplatelet therapy. And over the last couple of years, we've seen an incredible change in how we think about dual antiplatelet therapy and a number of trials have really challenged that dogma. So I really think that a stent like this, I think it will be very interesting to study this in patients who are either high bleeding risk. This does perform better than bare metal stents, we know that. So conceivably we can get away with a much shorter duration of dual antiplatelet therapy, or just a lower duration of dual antiplatelet therapy in general. So I would think that that would be one of the next areas of research in a randomized fashion for this group of stents. Dr Greg Hundley: Well, listeners, we've had a wonderful conversation here with Professor Lisette Jensen from Denmark and Dr Dharam Kumbhani from Dallas, Texas, related to some new evolutionary thoughts in intercoronary stenting. For all our listeners out there on behalf of Carolyn and myself, we wish you a great week and look forward to speaking with you next week. This program is copyright of the American Heart Association 2020.  

Michelle Oates: A promise tomorrow is worth a lot less than trying today. I am Michelle Oates and I'm a Tri-Cities influencer. Paul Casey: But really this is the core philosophy of what I teach in time management, and that is manage your time around your values and vision. This is your foundation for everything else in time management. Speaker 3: Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington in Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the TCI podcast where local leadership and self-leadership expert, Paul Casey interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and nonprofit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams, so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey: Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Cari McGee. Cari is a realtor with Keller Williams and I asked for a fun fact about her. She has very vivid dreams that she still remembers, but Cari, you're going to have to tell the story. Cari McGee: Okay. Well, a lot of grownups forget their dreams or they think of childhood is when you really have your dreams. But here I am as an adult having pretty vivid dreams. The other day I had a dream that I was married to my accountant, and that's kind of funny, but what's really funny is that I wasn't married to my accountant. Instead of being married to my husband, I was married to my accountant in addition to being married to my husband, and he just liked being married to me. He traveled a lot, I understood in the dream. And he said that when he was home, he just liked to be married to me. Cari McGee: In the dream, I'm thinking, I'm like, "Okay, this is pretty serious. And if I get caught, how am I going to explain this?" Like, sometimes if somebody gets caught in a crime syndicate or whatever, they can say, "Oh, I was brainwashed or this..." Nothing like that happened. Like, why was I married to two people at once? I have no idea. So thankfully I woke up. Paul Casey: Thankfully I woke up. Cari McGee: And that was not my reality. Paul Casey: That's a good T-shirt message as well. Thankfully, I woke up. Cari McGee: Yes, totally love that. Paul Casey: Especially in these trying times that we're in, maybe we're all going to get to put that on our shirts. Cari McGee: Oh, right, right. That's a good message. Paul Casey: Well, we're going to dive in after checking in with our Tri-City Influencer sponsor. Preston House : Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, vice president and commercial lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House : When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I've been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old. So when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate, employment and retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community like Preston, with all the information and support they need all under one roof. Preston House : It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call, no automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business, serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information, how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track. Visit wwwcommunity1st.com. That's www community one st.com. Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the Tri-Cities. So, Cari, I think we met years ago, our children are the same age, both kids, same age, both a male and a female child, same grade, Wiley Elementary, Enterprise Middle School. Cari McGee: Yes. Hanford High. Paul Casey: Hanford High, right? Cari McGee: Yes. And our daughters are these amazing graduating kids. Paul Casey: Yes. Yes. 2020 kids, which is sad that they don't get the fanfare or some of those rituals that all the other seniors get. Cari McGee: I know. Paul Casey: Man, but we're making the best of it. Cari McGee: Absolutely. Same here. Paul Casey: So help our Tri-City influencer listeners get to know you. Tell us through a couple of your career highlights that led you to where you are today. Cari McGee: Okay. I began in real estate in 2004. And funny story, I decided to get into real estate. I had been in retail for years, but then I decided to get into real estate because there was somebody else that we knew that was in real estate. He was very successful, but I didn't understand why he was very successful. So I thought if this person is successful, I can probably be more successful. Cari McGee: So I borrowed a computer because in those days everything was not online yet, but you had to run a computer program to do your coursework. So I borrowed a PC because we only had Macs and it took me hours and I got it finished. And then I've been selling real estate full-time since 2004. Paul Casey: Wow. Why do you love what you do? Cari McGee: Oh, my gosh. It is a different job every day, number one. Number two, it's such a privilege to be a part of that particular aspect of a person's life because where you live obviously is hugely impactful to whether you move into a particular house as a kid or as a grownup, you're living there. Right? And I know if I had not been a Christian before this, I would be a Christian now because I've seen the way God works and orchestrates things like the money will come in at the last minute. Right? Or a house will be delayed closing because somebody else is supposed to move to town because they're the real owners. It's weird, and it's such a privilege to be a part of plans for people and what's going on for them. It's really, really cool. Paul Casey: That is really rewarding. So throughout that journey, you've hit obstacles to success. I'm sure. Cari McGee: Yes. Paul Casey: What is one of the biggest hurdles you've overcome in your career? Cari McGee: I would say that sometimes there have been people that either they see what I'm capable of and are scared by it or threatened by it and try to kind of rein me in or they don't see it and I haven't seen it either. And so I have not progressed or done as much as I could have/should have because of those other things happening. Does that make sense? Paul Casey: Yeah. What kind of people try to rein you in? Cari McGee: Well, there's a book called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent by Gary Keller, famous book, awesome book. And in 2004 or five, I think, my husband gave it to me as a Christmas present and I read it and I was so excited. I went into my broker at the time and I said, "Oh my gosh, I just read this book, and it's amazing. And I'll implement these programs and plans and I'll make a million dollars and it'll be great." My broker at the time said, "Cari, you're a wife and a mom. You really should just focus on that." Paul Casey: Ooh, wow, ouch. Cari McGee: Yeah, I was like, "Ooh." Well, I'm kind of mad at myself though, too, for... I mean, I didn't say you're right, but I didn't say you're wrong, either. Paul Casey: But it's something well up inside of you like, "I'm going to show everybody." Cari McGee: A little bit. There's all this... Yeah. Paul Casey: You have that competitive juice in you. Cari McGee: Oh, I totally do. I'm super competitive. Super competitive. Paul Casey: Well, leadership is difficult. Being an entrepreneur is difficult. What's one of your biggest ongoing challenges of being a realtor, and what really stretches you to the limit sometimes? Cari McGee: Change used to be my big thing, but now I've learned to embrace it. So, yay change! Paul Casey: Yay. Cari McGee: But I think that understanding that not everyone always looks at things the way you do, right? Everyone comes from a different perspective and a different background. So if I am like, "This is the way it gets done," and sometimes I'll be so far down the path and I'm like, "Where are you? Why are you not here with me?" And they're like, "Well, I still need to understand step four when you're at step eight." I'm like, "Oh, okay." That's hard for me is to not understand that everybody is where I am in the thought process. Paul Casey: They're at a different place in the thought process. Cari McGee: Exactly. Paul Casey: Well, you said you're better with change now. Was there a time where... Tell us about that. Cari McGee: Well, for years, any sort of change, I would just be like, "Oh, this is awful. This is ick." I want everything to stay the same as it was, and let's embrace the status quo and let's not change things. But three years ago, I needed to make a pretty significant change. And I kind of looked around when the dust settled and I was like, "Oh, this is better. This is better than where I was." So change can be good if you stop fighting against it, and instead say, "Let's see where this takes you." Paul Casey: So, that was your mental shift that you had to make, and it sounds like it stayed with you, too. Cari McGee: Oh, 100%. Paul Casey: That it can be way better even though it's going to be painful for a season. Cari McGee: Yeah. 100%. Paul Casey: Awesome. Awesome. Well, if you had a philosophy that you would put front and center on a bulletin board in your office or on the back sticker of your car for everyone to see, what would some of those messages say? Cari McGee: One of my favorite quotes ever is from Paradise Lost by John Milton. "The mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." I always think about that because if somebody is... I'm a big believer in mindset. You know, you govern everything that happens to you by how you interpret it and what happens in your brain. If I encounter someone who's like, "Oh, this is bad." And they're gloomy Gus or whatever, it's really hard to not almost shake them and say, "Listen, you're creating this in your brain because literally you can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven. It's just all how you perceive it." Paul Casey: So your thoughts are everything. Cari McGee: Yeah. 100%. Paul Casey: Yeah, yeah. There's a life coach, famous one out there named Brooke Castillo. She puts out this formula of CTFAR, which is circumstance happens to you, and then you have a thought. Usually that thought is somewhat automatic. If we can be careful about that thought, which is what you're saying, because it immediately is going to turn into a feeling. And the feeling could bring you down this downward spiral, which is ugly, or it could be a very empowering feeling that like you said would change. Like, what's going to be better if I just go on this journey? Paul Casey: Well, as soon as you do attach the feeling to it, now an action starts to manifest. That could be your body puts out signals that make people go, "Are you okay, Cari?" Or "It seemed like you're offended. Are you angry?" Or whatever that is. You may not like the signals that your body is putting out, or they could really inspire someone. And then the R is the result. And that's what the effect has on everyone around you. So circumstance, thought, feeling, action, and then result. Cari McGee: Makes sense. Paul Casey: So it sounds like that you definitely have that. The John Milton quote really talks about mindset. Anything else that you'd put on the sticker of your car? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. I'm really blessed because I've always been an optimist. Paul Casey: I know this about you. Cari McGee: You know? Paul Casey: Yeah. Cari McGee: I'm always positive. And so I guess that it would be that just like, "Look on the bright side." There's always a bright side. Find it. Paul Casey: Some of that is natural for you and your personality style, but you have to choose it every day. So if you're talking to these Tri-City influencers, why would you say choose optimism? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. If you're not choosing optimism, you're choosing pessimism or you're choosing a negative side of realism, and I mean, that just drags you down. It doesn't move you forward. You don't grow where it's dark. You grow where there's light and you move forward where there's light. Think of sunflowers, right? They follow the sun because that's what makes them... You know, that's doing their job. They're optimized, I guess, would be the best word for that. Paul Casey: Things grow where there's light. There's the bumper sticker. We found it. Cari McGee: There you go. Okay. Paul Casey: I love it. I love it. Well, most influencers I know have a bit of a visionary inside of them or that like, "We've got to take the next deal. I got these ideas." So for you, where do you take time to dream about the future or new ideas? Where do you play with that kind of stuff? What does that look like? Cari McGee: Oh, a couple of places. I'm in my car a lot as a real estate agent and so a lot of stuff... I'll be listening to podcasts and something will be said and it'll make me think, and I'll pause the podcast and I'll start to think and dream. One other thing, and this is funny, my husband used to be in broadcasting. So this is where this question comes from, but my whole life, I've interviewed myself. Like, "Well, Cari, tell us about this time." Right? To help me kind of walk through or figure out a problem. I was telling my husband that once, and he said, "Do you ever ask yourself a question you can't answer?" I said, "What?" He said, "Well, that's the mark of a good interview." Okay. The point is not though to be- Paul Casey: To stop. Cari McGee: Right. I'm talking to me. Right? I'm not going to ask myself something that I don't know. But anyway, I'll use that time in the car to do that, and then oftentimes too just out sitting on the patio in the evening, watching the sunset and thinking of the future. Paul Casey: Little patio time. Cari McGee: Yes. Paul Casey: Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. Interview yourself. So Matt McGee, was he sports? What was he? Cari McGee: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. Paul Casey: Yeah, he was sports. What years were that? Cari McGee: Oh gosh, '94 through '97 I think he was at KEPR. Paul Casey: Okay. Okay. But asking yourself questions. And I do, I find that, too, like... Because you're on social media a lot. Right? Which platforms do you enjoy the most by the way? Cari McGee: Facebook is my milieu. I love it. Paul Casey: Okay. Okay. So, of course, you have to be self-promoting, which is hard. Cari McGee: Correct yes. Paul Casey: Which is hard, and sometimes when you just try to come up with a message on your own, it's difficult. But if you think about the interview, like if I just have somebody ask me a question, for some reason, it makes it easier. Have you found that? Cari McGee: Oh, 100%. Yes. Yes. Paul Casey: I don't know if it just brings out our authenticity or you don't feel quite as plastic to put it out to the world, but if you can get someone else to ask you a question, I think that's just easier. Cari McGee: Well, I mean, I did something at the beginning of when the stay at home order was released. I did a thing for 30 days on Facebook. Every day I asked a new question and it really helped people because the purpose of it was to remind them that we were in this situation, and to think about times in the past when we were not, and times in the future when we won't be. Paul Casey: Oh, I like it. Cari McGee: So that was the purpose of it and it was a different question every day. It was things like, What's your favorite color? Or do you have a middle name? Do you wish it was a different middle name? What would your last name be if you could change it? I mean, so things like that. You're right. It's when you ask questions, people just are... They jump on it. They get so excited. Paul Casey: So a good strategy on social media for engagement, because you've got a lot of engagement from that, too. Right? Cari McGee: I did. I did. Paul Casey: Yeah. So asking a good question. Really the power of a good question is really essential to leadership and of course, to entrepreneurship. That curiosity really brings out the best in people it seems. Well, before we head into our next question on how Cari starts her day, let's shout out to our sponsor. Preston House : Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, vice president and commercial lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House : When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I'd been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old. So when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate employment, retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community like Preston with all the information and support they need all under one roof. Preston House : It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call, no automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business, serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information, how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track, visit wwwcommunity1st.com. That's www community one st.com. Paul Casey: So Cari, what's your typical morning routine look like before work and once you hit the ground running at work, and if you have any rituals that help you start your day strong? Cari McGee: I actually do. I don't know if you've ever read The Miracle Morning. Paul Casey: I've heard of it. Cari McGee: Okay. It's really, really good, and it talks about having, it can be as few as 10 minutes, or it can be as much as an hour of SAVERS, S-A-V-E-R-S. Paul Casey: Oh, yes. Is it Hal Elrod? Cari McGee: Yes, yes. Paul Casey: Yes. Okay. Cari McGee: S is silence, moment of silence, meditation, prayer, whatever. And then A is affirmations. V is visualization. E is exercise. R is reading and S is scribing or journaling. I started that. It was so funny. I started it three years ago, I think. What I love about it is that it centers me because I wake up and I don't look at my phone first thing. I don't look at my emails. Cari McGee: The problem with that is you immediately, you're in reactive mode when you do that and that's so bad for you, and the hormones of your body when you're waking up and everything. So if you start the day really centering and being grateful and then also dreaming, you're affirming the visualization. Probably it ties into the dream thing. I mean, I have a really active imagination. Visualizing is not a problem for me at all. And so I love that part of it. And then I've always loved to read and then journaling, too. I love to write. And so all of that is what I generally do probably about five days a week. Paul Casey: That's great. So take us through SAVERS again, so our listeners don't have to rewind. Cari McGee: Sure. S is silence. So silence, meaning a moment of silence in prayer or meditation. A is affirmations. V is visualization. E is exercise. R is reading and S is scribing, which is the old-fashioned way of saying journaling. Paul Casey: Yeah. Yeah. I heard Brendon Burchard, he's another podcast guy I listen to. Cari McGee: Oh, I like him. Paul Casey: He said, "We need to take our MEDS every day and MEDS is meditation, exercise- Cari McGee: Yeah. Meditation, exercise, diet, and- Paul Casey: Sleep. Cari McGee: Sleep. Yeah. Paul Casey: Yeah. So SAVERS incorporates that, but even takes it to that next level with the journaling. What does journaling do for you? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, Paul, I've always been a writer. I write stories. I write everything. So for me, it's helpful because I will read back over old entries and remember where I was at any given time. And if it was a bad time, then I'm like, "Oh, look at me. I got past this bad time because this is not my reality anymore." Now I'm over here, that happened. It helps me remember and realize that I've gotten through bad times before. Paul Casey: You grew. Cari McGee: Right. I've gotten through bad times and here I am on the other side of it. Maybe sometimes in there, I'll talk about how I did it, but mostly it's just recording how I feel at any given time. Then I'm like, "Oh, I remember that place. I didn't like that place. I'm glad I'm here now." Paul Casey: Yeah, I've heard journal is a place to protest. Cari McGee: Oh, sure. Paul Casey: You know, it's like when you write an email to someone you're mad at and then you don't send it, but it's just getting it done and then you're going to delete it. Cari McGee: Right, exactly. Paul Casey: A journal can also be that place where you're just talking about your feelings to the world, but to no one. And then you don't have to show it to anyone else. It's your own private place is doing this journaling. Cari McGee: I like that. Paul Casey: That's why that's a good one, too. And sleep, well, it's so important, especially during this COVID crisis. A lot of Zoom meetings where you're talking with people on the phone or, and they just... The research says you need eight hours of sleep. I don't know if you're an eight-hour person. Cari McGee: Oh, no. I totally am. I'm a huge sleep believer. It bothers me when people are all like, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." Okay, well, you're going to die sooner. Paul Casey: It's going to catch up to you. Yeah. Cari McGee: So why don't you sleep now? Right? That's my thing. Paul Casey: It's going to catch up to you. So if you're getting by in five, six or seven normally, you need the eight now because boy, you just... Sleep puts your life in perspective, I think, if you have enough adequate rest. And when you're on burnout, you lose your perspective and that's a scary place. You ever been in a place of burnout before where it's just- Cari McGee: Oh, gosh yeah. Yes. Paul Casey: Now what does that feel like for you? Cari McGee: Oh, I get snappy. I get really, really snappy with everyone I love. I'll do a lot of screaming in the car. You know, "Move your 'beep.'" Do you not? My mom always used to do this thing where she would drive and we'd be at the intersection and she'd say, "Beep, beep." And then they would move. And she'd say, "See, Cari, they heard me." I was like, "What?" But I will be like, "Move." You know, and it doesn't work for me. Anyway, I snap. I get pissy. Oh, I get snotty. I have attitude. It's awful. Paul Casey: Any other tips you'd give to listeners about avoiding burnout? Because it's a grind. Running your own business is a grind, but even for those that are in a regular work job, a day job, a burnout is always a threat. Cari McGee: Yep. 100%. Sleep is important. Like we just talked about, you've got to get enough sleep. Otherwise, your last nerve gets reached really fast. But also, one thing that I'm not really good at doing, but would help if I did is take time to notice the things you have done well and where you are now, like you did land that big client or you were able to accomplish this task that you didn't think you could. And then you're like, "Okay, you know what? I really am further along than I thought I'd be." Paul Casey: Yeah. Take time to celebrate, I think is what you're saying. Cari McGee: Yeah. Paul Casey: On my whiteboard, it's my scorecard or whatever I call it, and at the end of every week... I'll do it. I'll do it tomorrow. It's my weekly review, and it's all the things I did get done this week. Of course, I'm just a party of one as a solopreneur. And I just went, "Yes, I got that done, that done, that done." Nobody else sees it, but me, but it makes me feel good like this was another good week. Cari McGee: See, and that's really good. I need to do that. I don't do them enough. Paul Casey: Yeah. When I ask my coaching clients, the very first question I usually ask of them, the icebreaker question is what wins can we celebrate? What did you get crossed off your list? What did you make progress on? Because most people at least can feel like, "Well, I moved the ball forward in these areas." It's not done-done, but it's better than it was last week. So I really love that as a burnout avoidance technique or else you just feel like, again, not anything done. This is a- Cari McGee: Same crap, different day unless you take a minute to say, "Wait, this was a very different day because I accomplished X." Paul Casey: Yes, yes. We're trying to avoid Groundhog Day. Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: That is a great way to do it. I love it. Now, family is a big deal to most people. How do you prioritize your family time whether it's with your husband, with your kids and yet still be a high performer at work, right? It's this constant tension. Cari McGee: It is, it is. Well, this is a slightly different thing for women, I think, as opposed to men, especially in my job anyway. I heard a long time ago and I have always lived by this. Say, for example, if I'm going to take my daughter to a dance class or I'm going to do something, right? If I tell a client that that's what I'm doing, then I'm a mom primarily who also happens to work in real estate. Paul Casey: Oh, okay. Cari McGee: Right? But if a dad says, "Hey, I can't show you this house, because I'm going to take my daughter." "Oh my gosh, you're the best dad in the world. Oh, my gosh, you're really taking time for your family. Oh, my gosh, absolutely." Right? So I have always said, even if I am doing something with my kids, nobody knows that. I'm like, "Okay, you know what? I have a lunch appointment." Paul Casey: I'm just unavailable right now. Yep. Cari McGee: Right. Exactly. "I have a lunch appointment. Blah, blah, blah." So I draw those really clear boundaries around stuff. They don't necessarily know what those boundaries are around, but I mean, that's why when I need to do something with kid one or kid two, I'm there when I said I'd be there because that's super important especially when they're littler. My daughter, it's funny. She hasn't been in daycare for... I don't know. She's 18 now. So like, I don't know, 10 years or more, probably 15 years. And she remembers the one time we were late. Cari McGee: Every time we passed her daycare, "Remember when we were late, when you were late to get me?" It's like, "Stop kid." Right? I mean, it's a testament to the fact that her dad and I worked so hard to get them on time that she remembers the one time we were late. Do you know what I mean? As opposed to it being a constant thing. Paul Casey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, it's our brains who remember those traumatic times- Cari McGee: Oh, my gosh right. Paul Casey: ... more than all the times you're on time and all the gifts you gave them. Cari McGee: Exactly. Paul Casey: Do you have date times with your husband? How do you carve? Do you carve that out or as a realtor, do you have to move blocks of time all over the place? Cari McGee: No. Sometimes... I mean, he'll say, "This Marvel movie is coming out on Saturday and I got tickets for us already" or whatever. And then I'm like, "Okay, that's perfect." Because if I know in advance, then I'll schedule around it, so that's fine. Paul Casey: Okay. So that's blocked out in advance probably through good communication, because there's probably times where you just got to show house and that has to be moved around. Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: And of course, Matt is the biggest U2 fan on the planet. Right? Right? Cari McGee: Well, usually. Actually, he's no longer a U2 fan. Paul Casey: No longer? Cari McGee: No. Paul Casey: Oh wow. Okay. Cari McGee: There's a new band called Gang of Youths that he loves. They're from Australia, and they're amazing. Paul Casey: Okay. All right. I was going to say, did that impact your marriage? Cari McGee: Actually, this is funny. I was really worried because I thought... Because they predate me and I thought, "Oh, if he could lose interest in them, my days are numbered." My daughter was like, "Mom, please." I was like, "Oh." Paul Casey: Funny, funny. Okay. So as an influencer, we know you're not a know-it-all. You're a learner, right? Cari McGee: Right. Paul Casey: So where do you go for the wisest advice? These can be live people. Well, they probably all have been live people. Cari McGee: And once live. Paul Casey: I mean, people around us in the Tri-Cities or they're authors, motivators. You've mentioned one already. You've talked a little bit about podcasts. There's probably some industry professionals because what I know about Keller Williams is it's like the best training company, because I get the magazine. I get Trainer Magazine. I know I'm sort of a nerd, but Keller Williams always wins the awards in there. So tell me about your influencers you go to. Cari McGee: Well, one of the number one real estate coaching companies in the world is Tom Ferry coaching. I've had a Tom Ferry coach for four years. Paul Casey: Nice. Cari McGee: I was a Tom Ferry coach for a period of time. I have a new coach now outside that Tom Ferry organization. She's amazing. So ever since I realized how important coaching is, that's really... I mean, holy cow, my business doubled. It was amazing. Paul Casey: Really? Wow. Bam. Cari McGee: Yes. It was really remarkable. So coaches for sure. And then part of that reading of the SAVERS is reading books like Principles by Ray Dalio. Paul Casey: I'm reading that one right now. Yes. Cari McGee: Okay. It's so good. Right? So there's so much to learn, Paul, from everybody. Oh, my gosh, I'm just always reading, and like I said, always podcasting, listening to podcasts with great interviews with people, so that I have to learn more. Paul Casey: Do you have a few favorite books or podcasts that you could recommend so that generally entrepreneurs or leaders would enjoy? Cari McGee: Sure. One is not actually about anything entrepreneurial, but it's called 99% Invisible and it is just stinking great, fascinating trivial information, really good stories. It's been going on for 10 years and I discovered it a year ago, and over successive hikes at Badger, I've made my way through 10 years of that catalog and stuff. It's so good. Paul Casey: Yes. 99% Invisible? Cari McGee: Yes. So good. And then Matt does a walk through or does a podcast called The Walkthrough and it's about real estate stuff, and so that's fantastic. And then also, gosh, I would say Tom Ferry's podcast is really good, too. Paul Casey: Okay. These are good ones. Cari McGee: Oh, sorry. And Gary Keller does one and I can't remember what it's called, but it's really, really good. Paul Casey: I have listened to Gary Keller's before. Yes, it is good. So finally, Cari, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing or gaining more influence? Cari McGee: Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I mean, it's really scary, but you are a better person on the other side of whatever it is and your whole life will be better on the other side of whatever you're scared about. Paul Casey: Yeah. I think I've actually heard that as a quote. Cari McGee: Yeah. That's better on the side other of fear. Paul Casey: Everything you want is on the other side of fear. Yeah, yeah. That's great meme. And has that been true for your life? Cari McGee: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, as I said earlier, I used to hate change. It was really in the last three years that I've changed a lot of stuff and became less resistant to change, and that's really when the growth started to happen. I'm in a place now where I didn't know I could be where things are fantastic and only getting better. Paul Casey: So if someone would say, "But Cari, I'm just scared. I see this obstacle in front of me," what would be a baby step that would get them? Either what's their self-talk need to be or what would you say to hit the go button for them? Cari McGee: One thing I heard a long time ago, which was really, really good was that as babies, we all learn to walk and what if the first time we learned to walk and we fell down, we just said to ourselves, "All right, well, I guess I'm not a walker." Right? Paul Casey: Yeah. Cari McGee: No, none of us does that because when we're babies, we don't understand that there are points where you get scared. Babies don't have fear like that. They're just like, "Okay, this is where I have to go." And you have to tap into that primal part of you that's just like, "All right, here we go. Let's go. Let's do it. I'm a baby and I'm moving forward." Paul Casey: Love it, love it. So how can our listeners best connect with you? Cari McGee: Call me, text me, email me. Phone is (509) 430-5342. Email is cari@carimcgee.com. So first, then first and last. Paul Casey: Fantastic. Well, thanks again for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great optimistic place and keep leading well. Cari McGee: Awesome. Thanks, Paul, so much. Paul Casey: Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. It's from The Wiseman Group. What's interesting is there's a term called an Accidental Diminisher so you can actually take a little test to see if you inadvertently are becoming an accidental diminisher of the people that you lead. Even though your heart's in the right place and you have good intentions, there are some things that we can do to actually diminish the people around us. Of course, the author is trying to get you to be a multiplier instead of a diminisher. So you can check that out at The Wiseman Group. Paul Casey: Again, this is Paul Casey, and I want to thank my guest, Cari McGee from Keller Williams for being here today on the Tri-City Influencer Podcast. We also want to thank our TCI sponsors and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible, so we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. It's Anthony D'Angelo. And he says, "Become addicted to constant and never ending self-improvement." So until next time, KGF, keep growing forward. Speaker 3: Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical tools and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their key desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Speaker 3: Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done everyday by offering you his free control my calendar checklist. Go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message to 72000 and type the word "growing." Paul Casey: The Tri-Cities Influencer podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe Strategies.

Join us for today's episode of No Labels, No Limits podcast with our guest, Sam Winch. Sam helps busy business owners turn their content into courses, and with over 10 years experience building courses, she knows how to make the process as painless as possible. Building courses and content to suit diverse environments and audiences is the jam in her sandwich. When she’s not busy creating courses, or making terrible sandwich puns about her name, she’s got her hands full wrangling 4 kids.In addition to speaking on course building topics, Sam also was quoted saying...You'd think I'd only need to learn it once, but several times I've been burnt by having all my financial eggs in one basket. Whether that's a single income (I was then stood down), a single great referral source (who then decided to close their business) or a single big client (who ran out of work for me). Now I'm careful to have diverse income streams from various sourcesLearn more and connect with Sam here: www.samwinch.com.auhttps://www.facebook.com/samwinchofficialInstagram @the.sam.winch See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

How to Stop Spam and Increase Leads Part One How to get less spam and more inquiries. All right, so we've all been there. We've started up a business and we've been sitting there, looking at our inbox waiting for something to come through and nothing comes through. So you wait a bit longer, you do a bit more stuff with your SEO and then you wait and nothing comes through. So you go to a couple of breakfast networking meetings and you try your best to see where you end up. You get a few leads, but then you notice spam starts coming through. You might be checking out the rankings of your website and looking at the quality scores and page rank scores and whatever other metrics that you're trying to use. You notice you're getting more spam than inquiries and you're thinking, why is this? Why do the spammers love talking to me? Get more tips to stop spam and increase leads at dorksdelivered.com.au Dos and Don’ts So, I'm going to go through a few different do's and don'ts with your website. Number one, if you're jumping on your website and you're having a bit of a look around, a lot of people think let's make it nice and easy for people to email me and I'll put in place an email straight up on there. So they have info at whatever the name of their company is .com.au and they have these spammers that will crawl through this information, find these email addresses, and then just start bombarding you with things that you don't want or you shouldn't want. Russian brides are fine if you're in Russia, but I'm not going to be buying one off of an email. Although Viagara seems great to buy off an unsolicited email, I'd probably go to my doctor if that was needed hypothetically. So one big rule, do's and don'ts for websites. Don't put your email address up there if you don't need to have it up there. So that's a don't. Being Easily Contactable is Key Here's a do. Do make it easy for people to contact you by having them fill out a form with one of those annoying am I a robot tick boxes. If they tick the box that they're a robot, they're a robot. Luckily most robots don't know how to tick that box. So it's just going to be humans ticking that. So you end up in a spot where you're getting less spam coming through and it's also more orderly. If they're all coming through the same single page, you can then reformat that instead of just having their email address that they're typing in and having a message, you can refine that a bit further and get other details out of them that you would not have otherwise got if they were just sending a normal email. So you're making this better for you, which makes you at an advantage to servicing them better. That also means that you're going to be getting less spam. So that's a do. Make sure you have an easy ability for people to contact you all over your website. Easy Access to Your Website Here's a don't. Don't make it difficult for people to get to your website. If you're selling a product or service where your main market is in Australia, make sure your web hosting provider is in Australia. Don't host it overseas. If you're hosting it with Wix or someone like that and the server's in Louisiana or San Francisco or wherever it is, that is going to be fantastic for anyone that's accessing that server from over there and anyone accessing your website on that server because they're going to be able to see your website really, really quickly. It's kind of like a road. As much as we'd like to think that the speed that we drive along the road could be unlimited, we have caps on it and in the digital world that happens as well. Think About Website Speed So if you want to drive from Brisbane to Sydney or even from Brisbane to the Gold Coast. Brisbane to the Gold Coast is going to take you 40, 50 minutes. If you look at that from an IT perspective, we'll call that 40 to 50 milliseconds. So it's going to take 40 to 50 milliseconds if your website's hosted on the Gold Coast and you're in Brisbane. Now, luckily with IT stuff it could be hosted in Sydney and it would still only be 40 to 50 milliseconds if you're on a decent provider. Now, let's rewind back to that scenario where you might be over in San Francisco. To get the data going all the way over there will take maybe 200 to 300 milliseconds. I know you're thinking, all right Josh, 200 to 300 milliseconds. What? It's going to take a third of a second. No one's going to notice it, but it is noticeable because it's kind of like me asking you something. If I ask you something and I say, "Hey, what's your name?" Then you respond and you say, "Oh, my name's Jason," and I go, "Okay, no worries Jason. What's your favourite colour?" Then you tell me what that is. Each time there's a 30 millisecond delay. You can't notice it a whole bunch when you ask 10 questions because then it comes to 300 milliseconds. If you have a 200 millisecond delay or a 300 millisecond delay and then you ask 10 questions, it's now pumped up to three seconds because it takes that delay for every question. Limit Questions Now a question is anything on your website. One photo, the computer that goes to see your website has to click on that and open that one photo to show your client in the browser. So that's one request. That's one question and then if you have a bunch of texts, that's another question. So you can easily have lots and lots of "questions" coming through. Most of the time there's about 150 or so on a poorly built website or more and on a streamlined website, 30 to 50 elements. So 30 to 50 elements would work out to be 1.5 seconds for those to load on a site if your hosting provider's in Australia. If it's overseas it could be 15, 20, 30 seconds. It all depends. So that's where hosting within your own country is a very, very good idea. Host Where Your Target Market Is Don't host outside of your country if your main target market is within the country. Now I'm going to have IT nerds telling me this is slightly wrong and I understand obviously with the different protocols, HTTP2 et cetera. It's slightly wrong, but it's the easiest way to explain it. So as a cookie cutter example, that's how it works. So to recap, don't host overseas. Don't have email addresses up and available all over your website. Do have a contact form for people to be able to easily fill out where you can get granular information. We're going to go through another do. Do make sure on the home page of your website. So that's the first page someone sees when they type in www.yourcompanyname.com.au. When they type that in, do make sure that you've got an ability for people to connect to you and you've got exactly what the problem is that you're solving that differentiates yourself from your competitor. So if you're selling vegan pies, on that home page right at the top before they have to scroll and do anything, and that's called before the fold of the page, do have a message there that says exactly what you do. So for that example, save the animals and eat consciously or something to that effect that's going to resonate with your clients and then have a button there saying order your pies now or find a store near you or something like that, or call us here or whatever the call to action is. Make sure that's there because the moment they've seen that, if you've grabbed them and you need to get them within the first three seconds, which is again why it's so important that your website loads quickly. Once you've got them and you've hooked them, they'll then start looking around the rest of the site and they'll look with more engaged interest and intent. That's what you want. The Final Word So overall, these few tips will give you a website that means you're getting less spam, a website that's getting more inquiries, and overall a better message and better quality of inquiry. I hope you've enjoyed this. You might be thinking, all right so we're doing this. That sounds good. What if I've already stuffed up and now I need to backtrack? That's a very good question. I'm going to leave that to the next episode. I hope you've enjoyed this, and if you have, jump across to iTunes, leave us some love, give us a review and stay good.  

Dr. Sean Hays PhD. and Mark LaRue find out why racist pedophile David Stringer is leaving candy at LaRue’s front door, disagree on the shooting of Rayshard Brooks, and disagree on Confederate statues. Oh, and some 80s movie talk, on accident. @PlasticCupPod Subscribe on: Apple Podcast Spotify Stitcher “They took that faded ribbon off the oak tree. They've worn out all the hope in their hearts. All along thought I was doing the right thing, Now I'm lying in a pool of my blood.” Thank you to Alkaline Trio for the title (Recorded 6.14.2020)

TRAVELOGUE THE EAST PART 1 BLOOD Roam, suckers, roam through the markets of Chin Pau With you races full of hope and your pockets full of dollars Roam, suckers, roam with the freedom of life blood Sucking face with grace in a love that's blessed by turmoil Mourn, sucker, mourn 'cause you spit on family blood And you turned your back on Momma, she never turned her back on you Mourn, sucker, mourn with your shoulder slinging nine And that bullet by your heart which your brother broke on purpose Roam, sucker, roam Laugh, sucker, laugh, 'cause revenge is blood that boils And the reason why it is is the reason why we're here Laugh, sucker, laugh 'cause your life's a twisted mess Let's look back in anger to how we got here Roam, sucker, roam Oh, precious blood Relinquishing its hold on what's to be Oh precious blood New day rising bloody still blood still bloody still Blood flows through our veins Dave - vocals, guitars Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums, percussion Ian - mastering PROUD TO LOVE YOU I'm proud to love you proud to be Yours forever just you and me So proud to be yours so proud to be Together with you forever be Alright One foot in front of the path we seek I'll have you travel through life with me We walk together and so shall be So Proud to love you eternally The path in front of world shall be We walk together so proud to be One foot in front of the path we see We walk together just you and me Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion Ian - mastering NORTHERN LIGHTS I'm your captain We'll be on this airplane for a day The arctic circle It won't get in our way To your left now You can see the northern lights Sleep well We'll be in Hong Kong by tomorrow night "Hey, Charlene I never really bought you a ring But I love you And I know that you ain't no 18 But I don't care. I can't believe we can't smoke on the plane Oh well Let's summon the liquor cart again." This is your captain We'll touch down in twenty minutes or so The weather's mild The local time's twelve and change so you know Enjoy your stay hank you for flying with us "Hey, Charlene, I think the bathroom door jammed on us." Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion Ian - mastering HONG KONG PLANE Spending time with a rented soul My body tells me which way to flow Billy's trail seems to lead to Seoul Or maybe China, baby, I don't know Hong Kong Plane There's that Billy Redfoot piece of trash That Indian chump and his stripper gash Ooh, baby, this is going to be cool My golden bullet's formed from angel's drool Hong Kong Plane I've always hated my Indian roots So with the government I'm in cahoots Johnny Redfoot is my given name I watched my brother board that Hong Kong Plane Hong Kong Plane Dave - guitars, vocals, keyboards Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion THE BALLAD OF ABRAHAM REDFOOT In ancient times a giant eagle sputtered freely sea to sea His claws could rip a mountain clean his eyes shot fire when the air was free His wingspan birthed ten hurricanes he sculpted much of this here land His greatest triumph was a birth a man I just call "Abraham" Abraham he sired a nation and "freedom" was their guiding word Their skin was red their feathers worn in honor of the ancestral bird Then caucasoids they floated west, set forth, destroyed the Eagle's land They threw litter on the side of the road a tear did stain old Abraham's cheek Then one day on the reservation the Army tapped old Abraham His two sons sucking mother's milk they sent him off to Vietnam Friendly fire it took his life there was nothing left to see Except five toes and an ankle, man, hence the name of "redfoot" came to be Momma Redfoot died of grief Redfoot boys played hoops and all Drank their whiskey, drank it neat, two young men with a basketball Then one Redfoot brother took the other's girl drove to New York and left her there The other brother joined the FBI but they didn't make him cut his hair Now you know it you seen it all a story old as euro myths In the spirit world Abraham sighs he says "D'IH!" Dave - guitar and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - percussion and drums JOHN WAYNE'S LAMENT The gravestone gave the name The gravestone gave the date The gravestone don't talk back The gravestone's what I hate Hello, Dad, I miss you though I never knew you And I wonder was it because of me And I never got the chance to say "I love you" Father, listen to me I took a look and I found out That that ain't the way it goes Hello, Dad, I miss you The house is old and gray The house don't give no dates The house is full of fear The house is what I hate Hello, Mom, I love you though I never told you When I was younger you took care of me But now I'm growing older growing smaller Momma, listen to me I took a look and I found out That that ain't the way to go Hello, Mom, I love you Dave - guitar and vocal Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion RETURNING I've puked more whiskey than you'll ever drink I've forgotten more shit than you'll ever think I kick more ass than Chingiss Khan I'm an egomaniac running rampant on the man Kiss my cynical ass you clueless motherfucker I'll make sure I'm fucking your wife and your mother Here's my fingers and here's my fist Lay low the arrangement if you get my gist The cream rises to the top I'm a dreg in the bottom I met Abe Lincoln and I motherfucking shot him It doesn't make a difference what anybody thinks So what so where so how you blinked Got fire in my eyes and blood on my face Drop the green flag, bitch, so let's start this race Hubba hubba hubba here comes trouble Cut me some slack now don't bust my bubble I come halfway around the world to fight So let's get this party started right Once upon a time there was a punk ass Indian He fucking pissed me off because he took all of my winnings In an Alabama bar abutting Louisiana So I followed that boy straight up through Texarkana And some G-man chump out of New York City My mission is seek revenge on pity I say hubba hubba hubba here comes trouble I'll reduce this town to smoldering rubble Billy Redfoot, hell, he won my hyde He got more than money, boys, he stole my pride So I'm on his ass like a meth head on blow Shit I followed them all down to West Mexico Hell I even heard tell that he's headed to China I'm on the pacific you know I will find a Way to wreak revenge on the only man ever Laid claim to my crown as the best gambler ever I Lived in the shadows while I plotted my revenge Every scenario of torture and pain Pliers and razors and electric cables Chains and hooks and bloody horse stables Break every metatarsal with sadistic glee Fill his lungs with gasoline and then light the sneeze Dig my thumbs in his eyes 'til they're wet with goo Sharp razors laced through his stupid shoes Sulfuric acid to scar them legs Then make him crawl and make him beg The worst part's I might hurt my knuckles The best part's I will watch him buckle Hey there, boy, here I stand let me proclaim I am here to remove from you all but your name For the beating I serve up shall be more than blood That spills from you like breath from a newborn and 'cause You have ruined my life I shall extract your soul From your life force and then I will highly extol My instance as the man and then you as the bitch So just give me the pliers so I can scratch this itch That bating that I threw down it almost took his life It felt so good to see him cry right in front of his wife So I admit it I just took her through a bag atop her head Tossed that boy out like the trash top of the world, yo, I'm kicking ass We got up to my yacht and then I said said she could go free She said her husband's not a man why the only man here on Chin Pau's me I got all of the money and I got that piece of ass Fuck all day drink all night hey shit, y'all, let the good times blast It's like I took my inner good and set that bitch on fire I'm still a young man, as it goes, but hell it's all time to retire I'll sleep on piles of money and I'll never be alone It's amazing on the China Sea well shit, man, I'm finally home Hey, baby, Daddy's home Dave - guitars, vocals, piano Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion I SURRENDER My brain isn't working my body is broken I'm in the abyss I'm a sacrifice She's his like a liar controlled by her greed And the sun is another one cursing my life It's over it's over it's all fucking over I'm nothing clear back to a different man's ghost Use vengeance as anger and life as a weapon Cancerous here leading my self doubt to grow He is the cancer she is the cancer And he is the cancer but I I am not The water keeps rising the sirens are wailing I'm sweeping up cities and making them rot I surrender Who's the disease spreading and razing Chewing up tissues and spitting out ghosts? My brain's in retreat my body is bleeding I'm giving up everything neither or both My blood it tastes funny upon my tongue It's laughing and darting and staring the sky I surrender already I don't have the passion I don't feel the need to even ask why I surrender Everyone's blameless and gone is the passion I don't have the strength or the caring to cry I don't care about the ending or even the middle Once upon a time a man simply died I don't want no punishment taught as a lesson I don't need to learn any new god damn things I'm turning my mind off I'm turning my heart off I'm going to sleep 'cause I've nothing to bring My brain isn't working my body is broken I'm in the abyss I'm the sacrifice The war and the battle teamed up and beat me Humiliated and timid with life Leave me be Let me lie Lie on back Bathe my pain I'm headed down That lonesome spiral Ain't never gonna see me Ever again I have peaked I am meek I am weak I can't sleep I surrender I pretend or I'm the problem From the rostrum Now I'm gone Like this song 'Cause I'm wrong Dave - guitars, vocals, keyboards Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion SHANGHAI SUSAN I came to and saw her staring down at me At my bloody body where was I to be She was Shanghai Susan as introduced to me I never felt so low as I did when remembering When I last saw Charlene she had gone with Troubadour I guess I left my manhood scattered 'cross the floor As I get my bearings I turn back to the door And leave that world behind because I'm sucked dry to my core Shanghai Susan is introducing me To a world where hope is less than just a dead man's memory My choice will be nothing and nothing's what I'll be In the great abyss with a dead man's hope I'm free Troubadour and Charlene I think they've disappeared Into something when I;m nothing as my path it now shines clear Opium she soothes me like an ancient lover's scent Shanghai Susan embraces me I know my soul is spent I Have Found My Home Dave - guitars, vocals, keyboards Brian - bass, engineering, mixing Andy - drums and percussion

It's Your Choice Your mental health, beliefs, emotions and your behaviour Isn't it great to muse? And that's what I was doing as I listened to a mental health podcast. I loved what I was hearing until BOOM! And then Oh No! Let me tell you the story and take you to where I believe something different and where you start to make changes when you have 'issues' and I think with ease and speed. Now I'm a Hypnotist, hypnotherapist and NLP'er but I'm not yours and I always advise for bigger 'Stuff' seek out 121 with a therapist but even with the bigger'Stuff' this will still help you understand and make change easier and for the smaller 'Stuff' this will also be great for you. Basically there will be golden nuggets for you here all you have to do is less play. So whether you have the behavior of anxiety, loneliness, depression, fear, phobia, PTSD, OCD, and the list goes on (you fill in the blank) this will help and get you to the 'I'm going to do something about this NOW' Please do share this episode, pay it forward to everyone you know :O) https://personaldevelopmentunplugged.com/183-its-your-choice/ Let me know what I shared that made you think - That would be really kind Shine brightly Paul Please remember you can leave a comment or email me with questions, requests and feedback. If you have enjoyed this or any other episode please share and subscribe. Just email me feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Go to paulclough.co.uk/subscribe to learn more Or simply click here to go straight to Apple Music / iTunes to subscribe OR leave a review If you want to access my FREE HYPNOSIS tracks go to paulcloughonline.com/podcast Follow and inter-react on twitter @pcloughie Why not look for me and the podcast on SPOTIFY AND the app Castbox I'm also in iHeart radio YouTube - copy n paste UC3BlpN4voq8aAN7ePsIMt2Q into search bar The Libsyn podcast page http://personaldevelomentunplugged.libsyn.com Stitcher, tunein, learnoutloud, Google Play Music Here is your show on RadioPublic: Listen to Personal Development Unplugged on RadioPublic  

It's the 6th of June 2020. And the main circulating topic in my being right now is my back. It's been hurting for so long now. 3 and half months of not moving properly, not being able to stretch completely and wholeheartedly, not being able to exercise completely, getting tired quickly and feeling a damn stinging pain at the core of being so often. At first I prided myself for being able to handle the pain as I tried to work it out by stretching and massaging the area. Now I'm just sick of it. I talk about other things too. I'm going to listen to this one tomorrow morning.

Tahnee welcomes Heba Shaheed to the Women's Series today. Heba is a qualified women's health nutritionist and physiotherapist who specialises in pelvic and sexual pain, menstrual health, bladder and bowel health, pregnancy, postpartum, and complex trauma. Heba provides women’s health and paediatric pelvic health services including physiotherapy, exercise and nutrition. Heba’s mission is to make women's health information accessible globally and to provide high-quality women's healthcare in the privacy and comfort of a woman's own home. Heba believes women's healthcare needs to be disrupted so that women can stop suffering in silence. Heba is a global leader in her field and an absolute wealth of knowledge. Today's chat is informative and truly inspiring, if you're a woman or know one - tune in!   Tahnee and Heba discuss: The anatomy and physiology of the pelvic floor. The normalisation of period pain. What healthy bowel and urinary movements should look like. Mechanical constipation. The functionality of the squat. The pelvic floor and child birth. The use of Jade eggs - best and worst practice. The East vs West approach to pelvic floor therapy. Releasing trauma from the psoas. Multidimensional health and the importance of taking an integrated approach, heart, mind, body.  How and where the body stores emotion.  The subjective nature of pain. Retraining the brain and neuroplasticity. The correlation between pelvic pain conditions and childhood trauma. Sensitivity, self awareness and the importance of developing emotional boundaries. Tips for creating a happy and healthy pelvic floor.   Who is Heba Shaheed ?  Heba Shaheed is co-founder and CEO of The Pelvic Expert, a digital wellbeing platform specialising in maternal, menstrual and hormone health. Heba was inspired to work in this space following her own challenges with a 15-year history of chronic pelvic pain and endometriosis, and after witnessing the devastating effects of birth injury following her sister's first birth. Through the The Pelvic Expert Heba provides holistic and research-based, women-focussed, online wellbeing programs to corporates, government, private health insurers, workplaces and individuals. A qualified physiotherapist, Heba has supported more than 2000 women on their journey to better health and wellbeing, and instructed more than 1200 therapeutic yoga and Pilates exercise classes.  Heba is a leading authority on women’s pelvic health and is a media commentator on this important yet under-represented issue, and a regular speaker at global health and women’s conferences. Heba also offers specialised physiotherapy for complex female pain and endometriosis in her private practice.     Resources:   Heba Website The Pelvic Expert Website The Pelvic Expert Instagram The Pelvic Expert Facebook The Pelvic Expert Youtube The Pelvic Floor Program - Paid 4 Week Course   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee:   (00:01) Hi everybody, and welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today, I am here with Heba Saheed, and she's a qualified women's health nutritionist and physiotherapist. Her expertise lies in pelvic and sexual pain, menstrual health, bladder and bowel health, pregnancy, postpartum and complex trauma. And a lot of that is as you guys know, a massive area of interest for us at SuperFeast. So I'm really excited to have her here today.   Tahnee:  (00:27) She offers one-on-one pelvic health physiotherapy consultations in the Sydney CBD area. And this is for complex pain conditions like endometriosis, bladder pain symptoms, chronic constipation. I may not do these words justice, but I'm going to try, vaginismus and vulvodynia and painful sex, you can laugh at my pronunciation Heba. And she's also the founder of The Pelvic Expert where she blogs about pelvic health and provides online pelvic health programs and consultations which especially right now, given that everyone's in lockdown, is really useful for people.   Tahnee:  (01:01) She has also got a really great Instagram account with is how I came across Heba. It's @thepelvicexpert but we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. And she also has a really awesome website, so if you guys want to go check that out after this, I would highly recommend it. Thanks for joining us today, Heba. It's really nice to have you on the podcast, finally.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:19) Thanks so much for having me. I know we've been going back and forth for a while now.   Tahnee:  (01:23) I know.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:23) But yeah, it's great and I really hope I'm able to provide some insight on this wonderful world of pelvic health. It's kind of a bit, it's almost sometimes hard to understand if you don't really get it.   Tahnee:  (01:41) Yeah. In researching you and preparing for this podcast I listened to a view other interviews you did and I was, because I've got a bit of a background in anatomy too, and I think you made the point in one of them of how a lot of people when they imagine a pelvic floor they're thinking about a banana hammock shaped piece of tissue in the pelvic area that just contracts. And they don't really have much of a three dimensional concept or a visual of what the pelvic floor actually is and how it functions.   Tahnee:  (02:15) Is that fair to say when you start seeing people, that you're educating them as well as obviously working with them?   Heba Shaheed:  (02:22) Ah yeah, absolutely. Education is the first thing. Educating them firstly, part of that is anatomy and that it is a three-dimensional, multi muscle system. I think people picture the pelvic floor as just this one little muscle that goes from your pubic bone into your tailbone, but it's more complex than that. It's got a right side, it's got a left side. It's got muscles that go to your hips, muscles that go to your tailbone, muscles that go to your pubic bone, muscles around your vagina, muscles around your urethra, muscles around your anus.   Heba Shaheed:  (02:55) It's a very complex system and they all have to interplay together. It's more than just muscles, it's connective tissue and fascia and nervous system and an immune system. There's just so much going on down there that we're almost oblivious to how important it is. There's organs there as well. Your pelvic organs, your bladder or your rectum, your uterus if you're a female.   Heba Shaheed:  (03:21) A lot of that is just beginning with education about yes, anatomy, like your physiology. But then even more than that, it's education around simple things like habits. What's appropriate for emptying your bladder? How often should you be going? What position should you be emptying your bowels in? How long should you be spending on the toilet? What should your periods feel and look and how long should they last? And all that sort of stuff. It's a lot of, more advice around simple things like your basic pelvic habits that we often have to educate people. And they're coming to us when they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s, even up to their 80s and not having known such simple concepts.   Tahnee:  (04:11) Yeah. I think back to health ed at school, which was pretty poor. It's such a mystery area for so many of us. And obviously then there's all the cultural stigma around bums and vaginas and vulvas and all those kinds of things.   Tahnee:  (04:30) When you're talking about these general health markers I suppose, something I'm really passionate about educating women around, is it's not actually normal to experience bad periods. For example, I have my period right now, and apart from feeling a little bit more introspective and a little bit quieter, like physically I don't have symptoms and that took me quite a long time to work out through my own journey of course. I think that's the same with things like bowel movements and urination. These are natural processes that require a really complex interplay of the nervous system and the myofascia and all of these things.   Tahnee:  (05:16) They're bio-markers. They're ways of us actually assessing our overall, more holistic state of health, right? So if you were talking to someone, what would you say how many times should we be going to the toilet? And what should we be looking for? And same with bowels. What are the averages, I suppose, if there are any that you would be looking for?   Heba Shaheed:  (05:35) Mm-hmm (affirmative). I can empathise with you on that front of having had periods that weren't great. And I agree with you in that we've kind of normalised period pain to the point that we don't even acknowledge that period pain is not normal. It's to the point where, "Oh I know, that's normal. Everyone goes through it. That's, you just kind of have to put up with it. That's life as a female."   Heba Shaheed:  (06:04) But the thing is, we know that period pain it still comes along with, if you start off your periods having had severe period pain and then you go on to have severe period pain through your whole teens and your 20s and whatever, that actually sets you up for development or exacerbation of both bladder and bowel symptoms. Because, as you mentioned before, it is a very complex interplay of the myofascia, which obviously your uterus is connected to your bladder and your bowels, fascially and muscularly as well, and of course your nervous system, the nerves are all supplying the same kind of area, and then the immune system and so on, right?   Heba Shaheed:  (06:46) In terms of what is acceptable in terms of behavioural habits when it comes to the bladder and urination, unfortunately what I often see in my clinic, because I see mostly complex pain patients is, "Oh yeah, I go about two or three times a day to empty my bladder." And I'm like, "Well, that's not right." And they're like, "I have such a strong bladder, I only need to go two or three times and I can really hold it." And I'm like, "Well, that's not actually something to be proud of, because you're actually putting a lot of strain on your bladder when you do that. Actually what you should be doing, is going around about every three hours."   Heba Shaheed:  (07:25) The bladder capacity, think of a bladder like a balloon. It's deflated when it's empty and then that balloon slowly inflates and the nerves send us messages when the bladder's more on the full end. But, you should also be getting minor nerve messages saying, "Ah, yeah. It's a little bit full," or, "It's moderately full." But if you're only going when your bladder is like stretched to extreme capacity, that's not actually healthy. Every three hours is good. That's about four to six times a day, or six to eight times a day. Six is kind of like a good, round about average number. If you're going less than four times, then I find that unhealthy.   Heba Shaheed:  (08:07) It should be a steady stream, a straight stream. If your stream's going off to one side or spraying, that could indicate that there's something going on. There should be no burning. It should be a steady stream, there shouldn't be any start stop of the flow. The flow should be relatively normal, not too slow, not too fast. Unless your bladder's full, then of course it's going to be a little bit fast. We also need to pay attention to what's happening. I think a lot of people, even when they're coming to my clinic and I'm asking them these questions, they're like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't know if it starts and stops. I don't know if it's a slow flow. I don't really know. I'm not aware."   Heba Shaheed:  (08:50) Or things like you go to sit on the toilet and it takes a few moments before the stream actually starts. That's suggesting that something's off with the muscles there as well. It's like these little things that if we start to become aware, I mean obviously we don't want to be hyperaware in that we're just fixated on it. But it's just like little cues that your body's telling you that the bladder or urinary system is functioning optimally or not. That's that.   Heba Shaheed:  (09:22) In terms of your bowels, the literature is strange, in that it says three times a week is okay to go to the bathroom for bowels. But I really don't believe that.   Tahnee:  (09:35) Yikes.   Heba Shaheed:  (09:38) I really don't believe that that is [crosstalk 00:09:38]-   Tahnee:  (09:38) Is that the scientific literature, I suppose in inverted commas?   Heba Shaheed:  (09:41) Yeah. It goes from three times a week to three times a day, is the realm of acceptability.   Tahnee:  (09:48) Geez louise.   Heba Shaheed:  (09:49) Yeah. I'm not really a huge fan of that. I'm thinking of it biologically and physiologically and mentally, psychologically the impact of not emptying your bowels on a daily basis. I'm a big proponent of, bowels should be emptying every day. If you're eating every day, you should be emptying your bowels every day. And if you're not, then that is suggesting that something is off in the digestive system, or in the immune system or in the nervous system. And it is something that needs to be addressed.   Heba Shaheed:  (10:22) And the fact, the thing is because I work with so many women who have complex pain and chronic constipation, irritable bowel and Crohn's disease and all sorts of bowel disfunction, I know for a fact that every single one of them is able to achieve daily bowel movements. Regardless of whether they came to me having said, "I haven't been in a month," or, "I haven't been in a week." In clinical practice I'm able to get them to go every day. It further justifies my belief that we should be going every day.   Heba Shaheed:  (10:53) And of course, it's just logical that you should be going every day. If you're having three massive meals a day, you could very well be going three times a day to empty your bowels, right? And they could be three type four stools, which is like a long smooth sausage, and that would be considered healthy. I would say at the very least once a day, and up to three times a day is good. But it's more about the consistency of the stool as well. It shouldn't be, "Oh, I'm going three times a day, but it's coming out as small pebbles and I'm incompletely emptying."   Heba Shaheed:  (11:27) It should be a complete empty of a type three to four stool, which is a long smooth sausage, and it should be easy to come out and I should be done instantly, I shouldn't be sitting there for 20 minutes trying to empty my bowel. And there shouldn't be any pain when I'm emptying, there shouldn't be any fissures, I shouldn't be straining, I shouldn't have haemorrhoids popping out. It should be a complete empty and I should feel like once I'm done, I'm done. I don't have to sit there trying to get little bits and pieces out.   Heba Shaheed:  (11:58) And if you're feeling that there is, sensations that aren't as I described, then it is starting to suggest again, that there might be some dysfunction. Whether that's a pelvic floor dysfunction, so for example the pelvic floor muscles, because the pelvic floor muscles surround your rectum, one of the muscles is called puborectalis, it surrounds your rectum and another is your external anal sphincter, these two muscles are part of your pelvic floor and if they're too tight, then they can make you functionally constipated.   Heba Shaheed:  (12:33) A lot of people get confused in that they think, "Ah, I just have to have more fibre. Or I just need to drink more water." It's a very nutrition focused approach, which is important for sure, but there is also a type of constipation that is purely mechanical. It is the muscles of the pelvic floor are extremely tight, and then it's actually physiologically difficult to push your bowel motions out. Or they are dyssynergic in that when you visualise yourself trying to push out your number two, it's actually tightening instead, because you're having this poor coordination. Your brain is sending the wrong message to the muscle.   Heba Shaheed:  (13:15) This is where pelvic floor physio comes in. Because it's like, "Okay, what's going on? How do we figure it out?" How do we... that's why we have such a great success rate with functional physiological pelvic floor dysfunction based constipation. What else? Yeah, I think that's the main kind of things. When we do go to the bathroom for number twos as well, positioning is super important. As I mentioned before, puborectalis slings around your rectum. It's part of your pelvic floor.   Heba Shaheed:  (13:45) When you're sitting on the toilet in just a general normal position like you're sitting on a chair, that puborectalis muscle is kinked, right? But as soon as you elevate your feet onto a stool and you lean forward, that kink relaxes, so that pelvic floor muscle actually physically relaxes just by being in a squat position. So think, eastern countries and so on, where they squat to empty their bowels, that's actually physiologically healthy and normal. We need to replicate that in the western world and that's where you would get a stool, and you'd lean forwards to produce that same effect. And that, again, physiologically, physically releases the muscles and you're able to actually empty your bowels without having to sprain and or without feeling uncomfortable.   Tahnee:  (14:36) Yeah. We have squatty potties in every toilet in our house and office. They are-   Heba Shaheed:  (14:42) Perfect.   Tahnee:  (14:42) They are very popular. But it's interesting just thinking about that, because I was lucky enough to have a birth that I was in control of. And I found the birth also I wanted to squat to deliver my baby. My mum, as I was growing up, always talked about that as being the most natural position to deliver in. I remember when I studied physiology that bend in the pelvis as well, you can really when you start to look at the muscles in the anatomy you can see how being in that squat position just allows everything to relax.   Tahnee:  (15:17) I think one of these misconceptions around the pelvic floor is that we always want to be tightening it, because and I was taught this through more the Taoist tradition but we work a lot with jade eggs and I don't know, you might not be into this, but taught me certainly to actually be able to relax and contract my whole pelvic region. And one of the practises we do is like almost using the vagina like a hand to like swirl them up and then down through the vaginal canal.   Tahnee:  (15:49) The first time I tried that I was just, "Oh my God, I have no connection to the... Like I can't feel anything in there. I don't," it was like one area was quite strong and then everything else was really weak. Is that kind of a similar thing when you're doing internal exams, what you're noticing is that people are quite tight in certain areas, but then really unable to get their brain to talk to their tissue in other areas? Is that what you're talking about with the anal sphincter as well? Things just gripping and holding on?   Heba Shaheed:  (16:23) Yeah. There's varying presentation that would come I guess. I think the biggest thing is that we have a complete lack of awareness of our pelvic floor. That's number one. It's just this disconnect, like our mind, body disconnect between the, well with the pelvic floor and pretty much that whole female region.   Heba Shaheed:  (16:50) If we go back to firstly what you mentioned about birth, yes, we're traditionally and physiologically you're supposed to birth, not supposed to birth, but it's inherently more conducive to birth to be in a squat position, right? Because we know that physiologically that opens up the pelvic floor muscles. And whereas in more kind of medicalized births where they're lying on their backs, that's completely not conducive to birth at all, because just the fact of lying on your back shuts your tailbone, it doesn't allow that tailbone to move. And that in itself tightens up, well not tightens, but it reduces the capacity of the pelvic floor to open, right? Yes, you're in a contractile state rather than a relaxed state, which is what it's supposed to be and then a bearing down state which you're supposed to be in for birth. That's number one. That's birth, right? But then aside from birth, well to be honest for birth you need to be connected to your pelvic floor.   Tahnee:  (17:58) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Totally.   Heba Shaheed:  (17:58) The issue that we see a lot with now is things like obstetric anal sphincter injuries. And that's because it's almost like women have been told, "Push through your butt like you're trying to push out a poo." But that's not the same muscles. They're part of the muscular system of the pelvic floor, but the vagina is very different to your anal sphincter. The anal sphincter in your posterior compartment, which is why you'll end up with an obstetric anal sphincter injury and perineal tears. And your vagina is your medial, like the middle system, but it's also part of the anterior system of the pelvic floor. It's very different, even the imagery that we are giving women is completely inappropriate. That's number two.   Heba Shaheed:  (18:55) We need to be connected to our pelvic floor, but not just, and I guess this is what you're saying, is like part of it is strong, what part of it is weak and part of it is connected, but part of it's disconnected. Well, that's the thing. If a person is visualising the pelvic floor as that little banana hammock thing, then of course you have no idea what's happening in your pelvic floor, because it's beyond that. Like I said, there's part of the pelvic floor that surrounds your urethra, part of it that surrounds your vagina, part of it that's part of your anus.   Heba Shaheed:  (19:25) Then you have another part that is a triangle that goes from your pubic bone out to your sit bone and across to the other sit bone and it creates a triangle. Then you have your perineal muscle, which are also part of your pelvic floor. Then you have a deeper perineal muscle. Then you have puborectalis that goes from your pubic bone and slings around your rectum and goes around to the other side of your sit bones. Then you have iliococcygeus, then you have pubococcygeus. Now I'm just putting words out there.   Tahnee:  (19:54) Then all of those are ligaments.   Heba Shaheed:  (19:55) That they have no idea what I'm talking about.   Tahnee:  (19:57) Well, [crosstalk 00:19:57].   Heba Shaheed:  (19:57) Yeah.   Tahnee:  (19:58) They're all ligaments of the uterus and the bladder and the vagina.   Heba Shaheed:  (20:02) Exactly. You've got all the ligaments which are your, so you've got contractile tissue that's under your control, but then you have ligaments that you can't really [crosstalk 00:20:11] control.   Tahnee:  (20:11) Yeah, not innervated.   Heba Shaheed:  (20:12) Yeah, exactly. Then you have your connective tissue beyond that. You have fascia, pubovesical fascia, you have the rectovaginal fascia. You've got all this complex system that I feel, yeah it might sound like it's hard to understand, but if you're going to go and give birth, at the very least you can develop a basic understanding so that you're able to differentiate between a posterior compartment push, right, as opposed to an anterior compartment breathing and let go and just facilitation of birth. It's not about forcing birth, it's about facilitating birth. It's changing the focus from a straining kind of action to allow the body to generate force from within to facilitate the birth, right?   Heba Shaheed:  (21:12) You mentioned jade eggs. Yeah, in traditional cultures there has been an emphasis, and the thing is today a lot of the, I guess western pushers of jade eggs aren't using it accurately.   Tahnee:  (21:30) Yeah, I know. Don't worry.   Heba Shaheed:  (21:33) A lot of them are more about, yeah.   Tahnee:  (21:33) I have that pet peeve too.   Heba Shaheed:  (21:33) Yeah. A lot of them are more focused on, "Ah, let's tighten up the vagina and tight, tight, tight. And squeeze and tighten." And it's all about squeezing, right?   Tahnee:  (21:43) Yeah, and like better sex and blah blah.   Heba Shaheed:  (21:43) That's right. Like you want to have... The thing is even if you want to have better sex and you want to have better everything down there, it's actually every muscle has the ability to contract and relax. And the pelvic floor is part of that. The pelvic floor musculature, rather than just a muscle, the pelvic floor musculature needs to be able to engage in contraction and relaxation. And traditional cultures who were using the jade egg in more traditional form, we talk about the engagement of the muscles in a contractile state, but also in a relaxation state. It's a bit of, not ballooning, but it's opening. It's letting go as well. And that when you have the jade egg, you shouldn't feel discomfort in there. You shouldn't feel sticky and uncomfortable and painful, but it also shouldn't feel like it's just going to fall out. It's like two concepts.   Heba Shaheed:  (22:39) The jade egg is something that's used in traditional cultures, but in more physical-   Tahnee:  (22:47) Modern context.   Heba Shaheed:  (22:47) Yeah, modern physical therapy context, we use something similar, but it's, what are they called? Vaginal weights. So they use vaginal weights, which are usually like a silicone thing or a plastic type of thing which I'm not really a fan of, so a silicone type of thing with magnets or weights in there that helps. It's a similar kind of concept. And-   Tahnee:  (23:10) Yeah, because I use weights. But just I use crystals.   Heba Shaheed:  (23:15) Yeah. And it's in the sense of that they use them more again, for strengthening and coordination, but again there is that kind of focus on tightening things as well. Usually you wouldn't see vaginal weights being used in somebody who has already a tight pelvic floor. However, in saying that, I could see the benefits of doing that in a sense that you're getting them to be more aware of their pelvic floor. And for them to desensitise the pelvic floor. Because a lot of issues with pelvic floor, pelvic floor pain in particular, is that there is an over sensitisation of the nerves and the muscles and the connective tissue of the pelvic floor.   Heba Shaheed:  (24:03) Can we go back to, what was the last question that you asked me?   Tahnee:  (24:07) I feel like I've gone so many places now, I think I was asking about in examining women and what your actual experience was as a clinician, I suppose. In the back of my mind, because we don't know each other super well, but I've studied with this guy in Thailand who's a Chinese man. Part of his system is you actually have internal massage to relax all of the tissue. And they work on your psoas through your vaginal wall and the psoas attachment at the femur and everything. It's interesting.   Tahnee:  (24:45) Yeah, so [crosstalk 00:24:46]. I was curious as, because for me I had probably six or seven treatments in a period of time. And then obviously didn't find many people here offering that sort of thing. But it's become more common lately, I've noticed. I just wondered, because for me I could really feel where there were areas of tension and pain, and then areas where I was, like you were saying, desensitised or didn't have a lot of awareness. I had that pre-birth and it was, I think, one of the reasons I had such a great birth. Because it had given me some context and some of biofeedback. I was able to, I love manual therapies in general because they teach you how to connect into your body in this new way, the tactile kind of way. I guess I was leading into what is your experience as a clinician and what do you see?   Heba Shaheed:  (25:34) Yeah. I guess my qualification is as a physiotherapist, but I work specifically in pelvic floor right, and women's health. But even more deeper than that, my expertise lies in female pain. I work specifically with women as you mentioned earlier, with women who have sexual pain, pelvic pain, period pain, vulva pain. Very specific to dysfunctions of pain down there. If we talk about the guy in Thailand, in a lot of traditional cultures we know that they utilise a lot of abdominal myofascial work.   Tahnee:  (26:23) Yeah, that's what I'm trained in.   Heba Shaheed:  (26:24) Yes. And intrapelvic myofascial work. And that's kind of in that whole body worker type of thing. And it's a traditional kind of thing, but then there's the Westernised modern thing which is pelvic floor physical therapy or pelvic floor physiotherapy where there's a medicalised version of it. Depending on the physio that you see, because again we're also divided in our approach. A lot of physios are moving towards more of mind focusing thing where it's like change your brain, change your body kind of thing, was my approach is a little bit more hands-on.   Heba Shaheed:  (27:09) I'm like change the body and the mind and the heart all at the same time, integrate them all. I know that I'm very, I don't know, just a bit more progressive in my approach and I'm very open, because I've also studied. I did a lot of South American Mayan type of abdominal massage training.   Tahnee:  (27:31) Yeah, like Arvigo and stuff.   Heba Shaheed:  (27:32) And I've done Ayurvedic and Abhyanga type stuff. I'm very open to all disciplines and all medicines. I'm not the type that's like, "No. It's all just about evidence-based pelvic floor physiotherapy." I'm not like that. And I'm very open about the fact that I'm not like that. And it's not exactly, it doesn't sit well with a lot of the evidence-based physical therapists, but I don't really care anymore.   Tahnee:  (28:00) I was curious about that, because when I saw you, I saw that you were working in kind of in clinic and like quite, like at universities and things. And I was thinking that's interesting that you're so open-minded, because I've, I guess in my career, bumped up against a lot of people who are evidence-based who think a lot of the stuff we practise is really wild. I've seen amazing transformations, and I also believe strongly in evidence-based stuff as well, but I'm like traditional evidence is still evidence to me.   Heba Shaheed:  (28:31) That's right. And clinical practise is still evidence. The thing is I find that the discussion or the disputes kind of occur because a lot of people get so focused on evidence-based being what is researched and done in a trial and done in a research study, but the thing is, most practitioners regardless of whether you're eastern, western whatever, most practitioners aren't sitting in research studies. They're actually with people.   Tahnee:  (29:04) Every day.   Heba Shaheed:  (29:04) Fixing the people's bodies. They've treated thousands of people using their practises. And this is where Ayurvedic medicine and traditional Chinese medicine and all these other traditional medicines come in. They've been doing that for thousands of years with beautiful results, right? And it has nothing to do with sitting in a lab or in a research group or whatever. I think people forget that clinical practise is actually, so there's three type of evidence-based medicine. One of them is research study. But the other one is clinical practise. Thousands and thousands of hours of clinical practise.   Heba Shaheed:  (29:40) And you know what? It comes down to a personality thing. We are all structured, we all have proclivities, right? I have an extreme proclivity for openness. Openness to experience and openness to intellectual things and openness to all sorts of things. But then you have other people who are more about like conscientiousness in like orderliness, or very low on the openness scale. And that's fine. That's who you are, like whatever. We're going to attract whoever is aligned with us. That's the people that I attract to my clinic. Most of the people, well 95% of my clientele are like intuitive, feeling, empathetic type of people who are very disconnected from their bodies, which is pretty much exactly who I am.   Heba Shaheed:  (30:29) I'm very intuitive person, a very feeling person, and I was very disconnected from my body, that I didn't realise that I had all these pelvic pain problems coming up, but they were there from when I was little, I just didn't realise until my periods came, and it hit me like a tonne of bricks that I wasn't emptying my bowels on a daily basis, that I was holding my bladder and only going twice a day. All these little things that you don't even realise, and it comes down to just who you are I guess biologically and psychologically anyway.   Heba Shaheed:  (31:05) The people who are a bit more, I suppose, conservative would end up with the more conservative physios. And then the people who are a bit more liberal end up with the bit more of the open physios or a bit more with the open traditional type of medicine. You're going to attract whatever, and that's fine. There's room for everybody. There's room for everything. And so I guess if we go back to what you were saying about what do I actually encounter in my practice, because I see mostly pain patients, they're coming in with these pelvic floors that are really tight, really uncomfortable, the fascia's yuck the nerves are very sensitised and all sort of things.   Heba Shaheed:  (31:43) And because I have such a touch-based approach, like I do a lot of intra-vaginal massage with them, and I do a lot of abdominal massage. And not just that, I do whole body massage. I work through the whole, if you're looking at meridians or myofascial lines, I work up into their ribs. I work down into their feet. I work into their cranium. Whatever I feel like, because I'm more of an intuitive person, it's like they come in and I don't know. It's just a weird thing that I have. I don't know how to explain it, but I can just look at them and I'll be like, "Yeah, this, this and this." And then I work into it and it frees whatever's holding. It's like it's something deep inside that you just have. You either have it or you don't. Or you can grow it, I guess.   Heba Shaheed:  (32:28) That's why, some people say, "Oh, she's a bit woo." But I don't care. I'm like, "Yeah, I am, but it works." And my patients are attracted to that and they love that. And then while I'm working with them, I'm talking to them, like anatomy and stuff. In talking to them, to their rational mind too. Obviously there's a rational part of this. There's and intuitive part and there's a rational part too. And I'm talking to them. And usually when I'm working on something and it might be the psoas interiorly, right? And they were like, "Oh yeah, my ex-boyfriend was very abusive," or something like. Things come up. You know that when we interact with the psoas, you're talking trauma extroverting muscle. As soon as you start to engage with it, the person starts to remember and wants to get out the trauma that occurred or whatever.   Heba Shaheed:  (33:24) Part of that is also allowing them to verbalise stuff, because we know a lot of stuff is repressed or held in. And because I attract this certain type of clientele who are the type, they're usually very assertive females who are assertive in their life, what they want, they're all like a bit type A type personalities. Type A, type B, I guess, but then they don't put their own needs ahead. They're putting other people's needs ahead of their own. And then they hold things in and a lot of them are quite out of touch with what is actually their feeling, because they're just constantly looking after people around them.   Heba Shaheed:  (34:09) It's like getting them back in touch with, "Okay, what happened to you and how did it change your life?" It's more like I do a lot of coaching stuff with them at the same time. It's an integrated thing. I've been to a lot of other pelvic physios and I can see the difference in the way that I treat, because a lot of them will just sit there quietly and do the work. Or ask you about your weekend or something, and I can never ever remember what I've done on the weekend, so it's like well what's the point of that?   Tahnee:  (34:45) You have a three year old, it's like, "I don't know."   Heba Shaheed:  (34:48) [crosstalk 00:34:48]. Yeah, you're having a deep meaningful conversation where you're freeing a lot of repressed stuff, whether it's microtrauma or a macrotrauma, it doesn't matter, they're still traumas. Even microtraumas have an impact and they're repressing them. And when a body comes to me in that state of, this inflamed state of severe period pain, chronic constipation, bloating and all this stuff, oh man, there's shit going on in there. There's stuff. It's not just, "Oh yeah, I fell over on the weekend." It's not that. This is deep stuff. What do you have to do? You have to have a deep conversation, otherwise that person's going to be going from one therapist to another never really figuring out what's wrong with them.   Heba Shaheed:  (35:33) And they're the ones that end up, because they start with the modern medical stuff and then it's not working, and then they have all this surgery and it's still not working, then they end up seeing traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurvedic Medicine and any of these traditional type of stuff, Mayan and whatever. And you know what? That's okay, because for you that is what is going to work, because it isn't just a body thing for you. When it becomes this complex and angry really, it is, there's like a poor alignment of your heart, your mind and your body. And it's trying to integrate all of them so that you actually feel like you're in control of your body, and it's not your body that's kind of controlling everything else.   Tahnee:  (36:19) Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's a such a common theme I think with women, is repressed anger and this sense that they have no control. I think especially women that are sensitive and like you were saying, empathetic and intuitive, because they take on so much and then it's this kind of push back or rage against what they've... It's their gift as well. I know you're an empath, and I am as well. It's my gift, it's also my curse sometimes. But I can feel, and that's certainly been my lived experience in my body, is when my own boundaries get brittle I start to really find that my body starts to lean back into the patterns that I've worked really hard to unravel.   Tahnee:  (37:11) I think it's just a constant process. But it sounds like you have such a holistic focus that people are able to work on that multidimensional level which I think, I mean for me it seems outrageous that that idea of bedside manner and all these things have been lost from the Western Medical system. Because, I think about just how important therapeutic touch and therapeutic listening is. I can remember going to older GPs when I was a little kid, who were like grandfatherly and gentle and kind. And just being in their presence was really healing. And I think now the system is really flawed obviously. But I can see how this disassociation of body from mind, from spirit has really led us down this path.   Tahnee:  (37:56) I'm super inspired to talk to someone who's actually gone through that system and continues to integrate, because I think that's really the future of medicine. That we need to have the evidence-based deep research and for me studying anatomy has given me so much power. But on the flip side of it, I have to keep remembering that the body is an integrated system and it's a holistic system and I can't just work on my pelvic floor and not have an overall effect on every single part of my body. It's this kind of dance always I think between the poles, I suppose, the Yin and Yang to use the Taoist ideas. But I mean-   Heba Shaheed:  (38:32) Yeah, well, it makes so much sense because what happened was in the last 50 or odd years or whatever, it really went into a more of a biological focus, like medicine went into a really biological focus. And then in the last kind of 20 years or so, they're like, "Oh no. We have to look at the mind as well." It's now kind of like a bio-psycho process, biological and psychological and then they're like, "Oh well, we know we do better in community." They're at this stage going to go into bio-psycho-social kind of thing. But the thing is, even the psycho-social stuff is still from a biological point of view, because it is like looking at psychology from a biological point of view.   Heba Shaheed:  (39:19) Really, depending obviously on what you believe in and stuff, and I'm assuming that obviously many of the people listening to SuperFeast are going to be more on the spiritual side. We feel like we have a, it's like a deeper connection, it's like a bigger connection, it's not just about my body right now. It's my body, it's my mind, but it's not just my body and mind, it's my heart and my soul as well. I need to be nourished in my soul too, for me to be really healthy. It's not just about always focusing on the physical elements.   Heba Shaheed:  (39:53) And that's part of it. It is part of it of course. You need to nourish your body to nourish your soul, but it's also vice versa. It's interesting. And the other thing that you mentioned before as well was about anger. One of the things that I've studied is when you look at, we have the mind or the head. And the mind and the head is where you hold fear. And then you have the heart, and that's where you hold shame. And then you have the gut or the pelvis, the gut and the pelvic paradigm where you hold anger. And that anger could be like anger to others, or it could be anger to yourself, or repressed anger.   Heba Shaheed:  (40:39) A lot of, that's often what we see. People are angry at themself, or they're angry at their bodies for not working the way that they want to, and it just feeds that cycle of anger. And their pelvic region gets worse and worse and worse. But if you really, really trace it back, you trace it right, right, right, right, back, there is that initial sliver of anger that started, but even before that there might have been an element of shame. There's even the heart isn't integrated. It could be shame, like shame at your own self. Or it could be a shame because somebody put a belief of shame onto you. Like, "Ah, that's not what girls do," or something like that.   Tahnee:  (41:18) Cultural.   Heba Shaheed:  (41:20) Yeah, cultural type of things. But it's somebody else's thoughts and feelings that you manifested of your own shame, or it's somebody else shame. Or even with a partner that you're with, or the parents, or whatever. Or society. And then even more so than that, your head is where you hold fear. Then what happens with a lot of my clients is that they get so stuck in their head, in that they're afraid that, "Sex is always going to hurt. That I'm always going to have period pains. Like, this is my life for the rest of my life. I'm never going to get better."   Heba Shaheed:  (41:56) It's like constant looping of fear in their head. What I try to do, is I try to get right to the beginning. It's like, "Okay, what was the first thought and feelings? What was the first thought?" If we go right back it could be something, a shameful thing that happened when you were two. Or it could be a fear driven thing that happened when you were just born. Maybe you were born to very abusive parents. Or like anger driven thing where you weren't allowed to be your authentic self, for example.   Heba Shaheed:  (42:33) It's like tracing it right back, because a lot of the time you can get so caught up in trying to treat the body, and then you think you're treating the mind because you're giving them pain education advice and all this stuff which is important, but at the end of the day the heart is completely not even involved. But I feel like that's really crucially important especially with the patients that I see, because they're all the kind of the feeling heart centred type of people. And then sometimes it's something as simple as, "I just hate my job. My heart's not in my job, and because I'm in my job," and I've had patients like this where it's like, she wants to be a naturopath for example, but she's working as a lawyer, you know what I mean? And she just hates her job. And I'm like, "Well, if your heart's not in it, your body's going to rebel against it."   Heba Shaheed:  (43:21) It's like even simple concepts like that could be the key that unlocks why a woman is having so much dysfunction.   Tahnee:  (43:31) Yeah. I can hear a little girl. Hello darling.   Heba Shaheed:  (43:35) She's dancing in the room.   Tahnee:  (43:37) Super.   Heba Shaheed:  (43:37) Spinning around, dancing.   Tahnee:  (43:39) Very cute.   Heba's Daughter: (43:39) Dah.   Tahnee:  (43:40) Yeah. It's you.   Tahnee:  (43:43) I'm curious-   Heba's Daughter: (43:47) Dah.   Tahnee:  (43:47) You're in a podcast darling.   Tahnee:  (43:50) I'm curious about complex trauma and pain and stuff, because one of the big epiphanies for me, I mean I was so scared of pain when I was 20. To the point where I've made some hilarious statements that now make me laugh. But I remember being 18 and 19 and saying, "There's no way I'm giving birth naturally. I need drugs to do that. I don't want to feel it." And obviously 10, 15 years later had a home birth naturally and blah blah. I changed. But a lot of the pain science and stuff I researched, I know that's an area you've studied a lot, like pain is just this completely subjective and incredibly difficult thing to measure and track. And so much of it is really due to this, I guess inability to be intimate with ourselves and to really give ourselves permission to have the full human experience, which is warts and all. It's not always sunshine and rainbows.   Tahnee:  (44:47) Is that kind of, I assume that's something because you work so much with really chronic difficult issues, is that something that you're always trying to educate people around? Is that, I'm not trying to say pain isn't real, because I feel like that's a really difficult thing to say, but it's sort of like from my experience, I've changed my relationship with sensation so much that pain and I have a very different relationship now. Is that what you're trying to work with people toward? Is to redefine their experiences, sensation and how they relate to their body?   Heba Shaheed:  (45:20) Absolutely. So it's all about perspective. We can create a relationship with our body that is pain driven. Or we can create a relationship with our body that's pleasure driven. Memories create little tags in your brain, neurotags, that can latch onto experiences as being with negative emotion or with positive emotion. And it depends on which part of your brain that you're using. We know that the right side of the brain is more associated with negative emotion, and the left side of the brain is more associated with positive emotion. Actually, we know that people, the ideal, so positive emotion isn't to do with being happy. Positive emotion is to do with not suffering. We don't want to suffer. And pain is an embodiment of suffering. We don't want to be in pain. If you're the type that is so fixated on not wanting to be in pain, that you'll use that-   Heba's Daughter: (46:25) Mum.   Tahnee:  (46:25) Exactly.   Heba Shaheed:  (46:31) If you're the type that doesn't want to be in pain, you'll become so fixated on that, you can become so fixated on that negative emotion, because you don't want to suffer, but unfortunately that actually propagates the feeling of suffering because you've become so fixated on that part of your brain that, because pain in itself is a negative emotion. Now here's the thing, right? Your brain actually doesn't know the difference between truth or lies. And this is a fact. It doesn't know. It's what you feed it. The food that you give your brain, food that you give your mind, is going to nourish it. If you're feeding it negative thoughts, which is fear of pain, and fear driven messages, and suffering driven messages, negative polarity based messages, then the brain will be nourished by that. And it will become hyper aware of that.   Heba Shaheed:  (47:28) But on the flip side, if you're feeding it positive thoughts, like I'm safe. I am content. If you're sending it positive messages, that will then nourish the brain in that sense. Think of it as like negative emotions and negative messages drying out the brain and making it hard and inflexible and uncomfortable. And positive thoughts and feelings and messages nourishing the brain and lubricating it, and filling it up that the brain is sitting in a soup, and it's relaxed and chill.   Heba Shaheed:  (48:01) Firstly a lot of it is just education on that sort of thing. Like visualisation based education, but then also anatomical and physiological based education in that explaining the actually neurophysiology of pain can be very helpful. But not just explaining that, but also getting them to do little workbook tasks to help them identify their patterns and behaviour. Because, remember a lot of it is beliefs driven as well. If you have this belief, that belief can be changed. We know that the brain is plastic, it's neoplastic. That means that it can be changed.   Heba Shaheed:  (48:40) Within three months, six months, 12 months, you'll have a completely different brain and cells in your body, if you continue to send it specific type of messages. That's why we can see a person, for example myself, I had like a 100 out of 10 pain 10 years ago. Literally every moment of every day was severe, excruciating neuropathic pain. From migraines to pelvic pain, or pain down my leg, sciatic nerve, and just like fibromyalgia type, like just horrific pain. That was because I was so fixated on the pain and the fear that I was always going to be in pain. Remember what I said about the head space being driven by fear.   Tahnee:  (49:29) I know. I call is the loop, like that constant feedback.   Heba Shaheed:  (49:32) That's right. And the thing is, that is very draining. That is very, very draining. Then you've got this rock hard brain that is completely devoid of lubrication, whereas today 10 years on, I can't even remember the last time I had a migraine. I can't remember the last time I had severe period pain. You can very drastically change it. And it's a constant work of it on daily basis. Obviously there are some times where I might regress and it's oftentimes where my mental state isn't well. Like if I fall into severe depression because of whatever, at the end of the day it is my thoughts and feelings. But certain events can trigger it.   Heba Shaheed:  (50:21) And that also comes down to trauma. We were talking about trauma just before, you mentioned trauma just before. Trauma, especially childhood trauma effects your hard-wiring. I was born into a very malevolent, narcissistic personality disorder family. To the point where there were times where I would be left by myself in the apartment crying my head off under the age of one, because of like no safety. No... Obviously that would've triggered a, what's it called? Fight or flight response in the brain. And we know that the nervous system is divided into two. Your sympathetic nervous system which is your fight, flight, freeze or fawn system. And your parasympathetic nervous system which is your relax, reproduce, digest, rest, chill system.   Heba Shaheed:  (51:17) If a baby is living in a chronic state of sympathetic nervous system hyperactivity, fight or flight, screaming and crying and being scared and feeling unsafe and all this sort of stuff, that's going to send your nervous system into overdrive. And your brain is just going to shrink, not shrink, but it's just going to become like that dried sponge. If it's a dried sponge, well all your nerves are coming out from your brain, well then those nerves aren't lubricated. Your immune system is then compromised. Your immune system is largely lubrication, right? It's mucous membranes.   Heba Shaheed:  (51:57) That's what I mean about going right back with my patients is that we're trying to figure out what caused this nervous system to go nuts? What caused your immune system to go nuts? And the musculoskeletal system is only the end product, the end thing. This all started way back when. It's like, "Okay, how do I then manage that?" Because I was one of those kids that when I was young, I had all this auto-immune stuff, like severe asthma, eczema, this condition called vitiligo where my skin turns white if I'm like severely stressed.   Tahnee:  (52:34) Yeah. I've seen that.   Heba Shaheed:  (52:36) It was just like super auto-immune type condition. And a lot of this stuff said, "Ah people say it's incurable. You'll just have to live with it. And maybe you'll grow out of it or something like that."   Tahnee:  (52:44) Those people are wrong.   Heba Shaheed:  (52:46) That's right. Exactly, because it's your immune system. Your immune system doesn't care, like it's trying to tell you that, "Help me. Help me. Save me. I need to feel safe."   Tahnee:  (53:03) This is the thing. If it's this line of defence, our protection and we're constantly being bombarded, like you're going to end up with immune responses.   Heba Shaheed:  (53:13) Mm-hmm (affirmative). If a patient comes to me and then they report to me that they had childhood asthma. I'm not going to be like, "Oh, you just had asthma." I'm going to be, "Woo, hang on."   Tahnee:  (53:21) Yeah, what happened?   Heba Shaheed:  (53:22) "Why did you have childhood asthma? Why did your immune system react like that?" And it's like 99% of the time that my patients will tell me and I'll be the first person that they've ever told, "Oh yes, this happened to me when I was little." Or something like that. There's a really, there's quite a correlation between persistent pelvic pain conditions and childhood trauma, whether we recognise it or not. And it could be just neglect. It could be neglect, it could be severe abuse, it could be sexual abuse, it could be physical abuse, emotional abuse. It could be anything. It could be sibling abuse, right?   Tahnee:  (53:55) I think even like-   Heba Shaheed:  (53:55) Or it could be bullying at school.   Tahnee:  (53:56) Yeah, I had a really, my family are loving and kind. But my parents had a really weird relationship and I'm super sensitive and I think took on a lot of that. And I disassociated from the body really early. I remember my mum having to be like, I'd be like, "I'm sick." And she's like, "Have you pooed today?" And I'd be like, "Oh yeah. I have to poo." I fully had that complete lack of biological connection. And it'd like that was my whole 20's it was working back to that. It's really interesting, because if I look at it, it's like I had a really happy childhood, but even just being in that energy all the time because I was sensitive to it.   Heba Shaheed:  (54:34) Absolutely.   Tahnee:  (54:35) It's like I can't [crosstalk 00:54:36] put blame onto them, but I have to do my own healing now to work out what my boundaries are.   Tahnee:  (54:43) And I'm curious, because you're an empathetic person and you're working with a lot of people's pain and suffering. Do you have boundaries for yourself on how much you can take on? Or how do you handle that sort of work?   Heba Shaheed:  (54:54) Ah yeah, for sure. I have massive, massive, massive boundaries. I only allow myself to work once to twice a week, and it depends on the week, it depends on my menstrual cycle.   Heba's Daughter: (55:09) I'm hungry.   Heba Shaheed:  (55:13) And with my patients, I used to think it was better to have breaks between patients, but it's not. For me, I need to just see them bang, bang, bang, one after the other with no break. Because then I don't allow all of the emotions to overwhelm me between patients.   Heba's Daughter: (55:32) I'm hungry. I'm hungry.   Heba Shaheed:  (55:35) That's my daughter crying out, "I'm hungry. I'm hungry."   Tahnee:  (55:38) I know, we're nearly finished, darling. They eat so much at three. My daughter's like a bottomless pit.   Heba Shaheed:  (55:44) I know.   Tahnee:  (55:44) It's ridiculous.   Heba Shaheed:  (55:48) Yeah, so.   Tahnee:  (55:50) Boundaries.   Heba Shaheed:  (55:50) Yeah, so boundaries. Yes, I discovered for myself that I need to see them bang, bang, bang, one after the other, because I couldn't allow myself to experience the overwhelm of emotion in between patients, because then it would be too draining to see the next patient. And then what I do is, I only, I actually see a lot of patients in one day. I can see between eight to 12 patients in one day, which is quite-   Tahnee:  (56:18) Whoa.   Heba Shaheed:  (56:18) A lot for-   Tahnee:  (56:18) That's heaps.   Heba Shaheed:  (56:20) Yeah. That's why I only work one to two days.   Tahnee:  (56:23) Yeah. Sure.   Heba Shaheed:  (56:23) And it depends. I do these really weird stuff, but before I go to work I tell myself, "Okay, who am I going to be today?"   Tahnee:  (56:38) Good. Yeah. I love this stuff.   Heba Shaheed:  (56:42) Which mask, which costume am I going to put on today? Even like now when I'm talking to you, this isn't the real, like it is, it's a part of me.   Tahnee:  (56:51) Yeah. It's one aspect of you.   Heba Shaheed:  (56:52) Mm-hmm (affirmative). But like the real me is actually very quiet and I kind of stick to myself, like a very introverted type of person. But, I'm like, "Okay, which costume am I going to put on today?" And that almost serves as like a physical barrier between my emotions and theirs. And then I have to physically tell myself, "Everything I feel today, none of this is my emotions. Anything that I feel," so like if I'm with a patient, the patient walks in and I immediately feel depressed, I'm like, "I know I am not depressed. She is depressed. Why is she depressed? What's happening?" Or if a patient walks in and they're like super happy, super excited and I suddenly feel like really bubbly and stuff, I'm like, "I know," I'm like, "Yes, I have the capacity," like obviously you have a capacity to be depressed and bubbly or whatever, "but in this moment every emotion that I'm feeling, is her emotion."   Heba Shaheed:  (57:45) Being conscious of that, so when the person walks in having that immediate consciousness of, "This isn't my emotion." And in that way I'm able to kind of, so I reflect. I imagine myself as a mirror and I'm reflecting her. So whatever I'm feeling is only hers. What I do, and this is a really amazing thing I've discovered is like I feel her emotion and then I allow myself to process her emotion, and then I actually speak out her emotion to her. I rationalise what she's feeling. And then she comes back to me with something, but it's allowed her to heal in that moment, that emotion that she was feeling, because instead of just feeling it inside, we've brought it to her outside. She's extroverted it out.   Heba Shaheed:  (58:30) And that in itself can be really powerful. What I've done, is I've also rationalised that it's not my feelings. It's like being very, very in the moment conscious of everything that you're feeling isn't actually your feeling, and it's theirs, but you're also letting them process their feelings. It's a really amazing thing to be an empath in the sense that you can allow other people to actually sort out their own feeling. It's a really amazing thing.   Tahnee:  (59:00) Yeah, in mirroring them.   Heba Shaheed:  (59:02) Yeah. And then-   Tahnee:  (59:04) Do you have meditation practises or anything as well around that? Or you just-   Heba Shaheed:  (59:07) What is it?   Tahnee:  (59:10) What do you do other... like yeah, obviously you're going to keep talking, so go. I jumped in.   Heba Shaheed:  (59:14) Oh, I was just saying and then at the end of the day I get on the train back home, and all I do is just filter everything out. I'm like, "Okay, what am I feeling right now? Is it mine? Or is it someone else's?" And then just letting it out. And then by the time I get to my car to go pick up my daughter, I've already sorted everything out, because I'm on the train for half an hour or whatever. It's like, "Okay, I've done it." And then it's like I could be super drained if I just let myself, because the thing is you have to filter them. Because in the past I hadn't done that and I would be so exhausted.   Tahnee:  (59:46) Oh it smashes you, yeah.   Heba Shaheed:  (59:47) After a day of work. Ah, my God, like I would be dead literally, and I'm just, "Leave me alone. Don't talk to me. I just cannot deal. I need to be on my own." But if you do that filtering process, and then you reflect on the day. And you reflect on how much you helped them, because remember as an empath helping other people, helps you as well. You feel that sense of, you get energy from that. And then it's the end of the day. And then I go pick up my daughter and I'm fine, because I know what's my feelings and what's not.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:00:17) I could do this every day if I wanted to, because I've kind of gotten really good at filtering my feelings, but I don't want to. Because I know there's a capacity to give, right? And a capacity to give, because we're giving people, but then there's also an importance of individually as well. I need to also be myself and do stuff that I want to do, and it's not always just about work and helping other people.   Tahnee:  (01:00:41) Yeah. And being a mum as well. For me certainly when I had my daughter, my priorities shifted a lot around she needs me more than others do a lot of the time. That's the priority.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:00:53) Absolutely. Especially that zero to seven really, it's like they need you, to nurture them.   Tahnee:  (01:01:02) Yeah. I wonder, I'll start wrapping up, but I was wondering if you had any advice for home care for the pelvic floor for people. Because I get frustrated that the Kegel thing, because I'm like that's not really good enough. But for so many people, it's pretty foreign territory down there. Is there stuff that people can-   Heba Shaheed:  (01:01:25) I'm not really a huge fan of Kegel, I actually am like well what the?   Tahnee:  (01:01:30) Yeah, it's just more tightening which people don't need.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:01:33) Yeah, so I don't. My focus for home care is more around your daily habits. We talked about it right at the beginning. Healthy bladder habits, going every three hours. Healthy bowels habits, going every day. And that means eating well, because we know your diet heavily influences your ability to empty your bowels. And just healthy bladder habits, healthy bowel habits, sexual health habits and vulva health habits as well. Like not using all these creams and douches and washes and all this stuff. The vagina's a self cleaning machine.   Tahnee:  (01:02:07) Leave it alone.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:02:08) Just use warm water. Yeah, just leave it. Don't put anything in there, except if you're having penetrative intercourse or if you're using jade eggs and whatever, that's okay as well. But, just leave it. Let it do its job, kind of thing. You don't want to mess with the PH and all that. And when you're having sex, simple hygiene practises.   Heba's Daughter: (01:02:31) [inaudible 01:02:31].   Heba Shaheed:  (01:02:31) Like washing your hands and stuff beforehand. And wiping from front to back. And emptying your bladder after sexual intercourse rather than before. And using a tissue. Stuff like that. Just simple sort of stuff. And even like the underwear that you wear and the pads that you wear. I'm a very, because I know this, I've seen it, like just simple thing of changing your pads to an organic cotton pad, or a menstrual cup or something, can be very helpful, rather than a lot of these mainstream pads and stuff that are like heavy with perfumes and toxins and stuff like that.   Tahnee:  (01:03:10) Yeah. And that stuff actually gets into your tissues and create issues.   Heba Shaheed:  (01:03:12) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Heba's Daughter: (01:03:12) [crosstalk 01:03:12].   Tahnee:  (01:03:14) Yeah, inflammation. Okay, well, I think you have a little darling that needs you.   Tahnee:  (01:03:21) I will say thank you so much for your time and for this conversation. I really enjoyed speaking with you. And for anyone who wants to connect with Heba, she's on social media @thepelvicexpert and she's also online at www.thepelvicexpert.com.   Tahnee:  (01:03:36) I saw you have some courses up there. People can have online consultations. There's lots of ways people can reach you. Is there anything I've missed? Or anything else you wanted to add?   Heba Shaheed:  (01:03:46) Yeah, no that's all. If you are in Sydney and you do want to book a consult, if you have any complex

James: Hey, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Raj Tekchandani from the Boston area. Raj is a co-sponsor/KPGP in 650 units across Georgia, Florida, Kansas City, and Texas. Hey Raj, welcome to the show Raj: Thanks, James. Thank you for having me James:  Good. I'm happy to have you here because I want to talk about technology. You are a technology guy turned into a multifamily investor, right? Raj:  Absolutely, I can speak technology all day long James: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to explain some things that I missed out. So why don't you tell us about your story? How did you get started and how did you end up being a multifamily investor? Raj:  Sure, I will do that. So hi guys, I've been in technology for most of my career, I did Undergrad Computer Science, then I did an MBA in high-tech so purely technology-based and wanted to become the next big company founder. A lot of my jobs were mostly startups but when I realized that I'm sitting on a lot of options and not going anywhere, I said, I need to diversify and started looking into real estate investing that was not until 2012, but that was just a side gig. I still was fully devoted to my job, which was startups and it was in data analytic space and we're building a platform to connect all the data in the world together and put meaning into data, using something called a Data Lake. A lot of formal companies were using our software, financial services, but there was no real estate company using it. But anyway after I finished my five years with that company, my stocks options fully invested. I was like, okay, what is my next startup? And by this time I had started collecting my grants from the little investments I'd done. I had started investing in 2012 in one Condo in Orlando, Florida, and gradually went on to buy more because the prices were very attractive and I could see the prices going up and I said, let me just get in there, so I got in there, fortunately, had a good property manager that helped us take the worries or headache off our head and the cash flow was beautiful. So in about 2016, I said, okay, they need me to see this look and I bought actually a 15 unit multifamily near my house in Boston and I wanted to do more of that because I'd heard, you know, multifamily the whole economy is upscale. So I said, let's get into multifamily and that experience was interesting, to say the least. I had not too much knowledge about the underwritings and how to really look at expenses and that came in as a very expensive learning lesson for me in terms of multifamily. So from there on, I said, this is too much work, I can't do this. I found a good property manager and he quit and then found another one then he quit and it's like, this is too much. So I said, no passive investing is my way to do it, this whole active thing is not my thing and I'm still working full time on my job. So I started nesting passively with some investors. The first time I looked at a passive deal I was like that's too much, there are too many zeros in here, I can't do this but gradually as I understood, I took learning and took all the courses and reading blogs and podcasts and I got comfortable with investing passively and then a couple of passive investments and I was like, this is great, I have my nine condos, I have my fifteen hundred, which has now started giving me cash flow and now has passive investments. Interestingly, it was almost matching up to my startup salary. And I was like the options are great, but what if the options don't mature or do much? So I took a bet and I quit after five years of my job to do real estate full time and that's how I dig more into multifamily. But interestingly at that point, I had this idea of another startup, which didn't go too much far because I wanted to take these learning from data analytics into real estate and now that I'm doing multifamily and doing all this, I'm not seeing too many systems out there. It's still very, laborious jobs, the property management company is a lot of work on paper and even the underwriting was very painful. So I was like, what if there's an automated software machine learning data, whatever we have learned in technology to build that. So I met up with the person at MIT, Jennifer, she had done a Ph.D. in Real Estate Technologies, like Artificial Intelligence Machine Learning for Real Estate. I'm like wow this is a person that I James: Talk to right? Raj: Yeah, so I sat down with her and she went through her thesis with me. In fact, she was nice enough to explain her thesis; there are too many companies out there that are doing what I'm trying to do.  James: So what was the thesis about? Raj: The thesis was the use of machine learning and artificial intelligence in real estate  James: But is it real estate underwriting, or is it real estate analysis or--  Raj: --Real estate analysis  James: Is it for investment or is it-- Raj:  So she actually worked for MITs and Darwin program buying the advisory real estate James: Oh, okay. So they're basically looking at investing Raj: So they're looking at investing so mostly commercial real estate, eventually, from her thesis, she came into that, MITs fund. She was working there at that time. But in her research, she had looked at a lot of technology companies, right? From doing everything from sensitivity analysis to underwriting to figuring out where the locations thesis are, property management companies that are looking to do automation based on the [inaudible06:24] so a lot of machine learning in there. Actually, one of the companies that struck me at that time was in [inaudible06:33], which is what I had been thinking about, sort of how to automate underwriting and how to take all the data that's been sitting in, all these Yardi Matrix and all the places that been collecting data. How can we leverage that to say, okay, well, this is a property that I'm looking at in multifamily, this is the address and boom, we'll go and run into algorithms and come back and say red light, green light, yellow light based on all these factors and in [inaudible 07:02] was doing that, some of that, I talked to the CEO there and start using the platform. So I had some suggestions for them into building other plans and other features on the platform but at that point I said, you know what, I'm more of a user now, and they're not technologists, I want to use these technologies that are out there, I can talk about what features they need, like lease analysis. In one of the deals we went inside in the back and you're looking at 150 leases, one by one, what is matching up. There's no use of doing that, those leases should be fed into a system and outcomes, and these are the mismatches  James: The lease [inaudible 07:38] should be automated Raj: This is a tenant profile and based on this tenant profile and this property and this neighborhood, this tenant profile will be surviving through any downturn, that’s what you need to know on tenant profile I'm sure somebody will build it in there; I think [inaudible 07:55] was already thinking about doing that. Anyway, from that I said, okay, I'm going to stay as a user, I started using these technologies but then I got stuck more into the whole underwriting piece and managing the properties, finding the properties, I was like talking to brokers, now I'm talking to this and that's how I met a couple of good people through coaching programs that I said, okay, it's time to take the next step, move from passive to active, and see how the big things are done. I wanted to be closer to the action. So that's how I got into active investments James: Got it. I mean, that's a lot of things there. So I want to go a bit more in detail on that, but that's good. I mean, so right now you're a full-time real estate investor, right? Raj: Full time real estate investor. Yes. I mean always thinking of the next technology ideas James: Well, that's the problem with all these tech guys coming into real estate? I also think the same, let's automate this, and let’s create a system on this Raj:  Yeah. But I mean, I keep in touch, keep a pulse on that. So I don't know if you know about this organization called CRE tech- Commercial Real Estate Tech, middle of New York and they are looking at all these things, all kinds of who's doing what, which company is being funded. So I keep in touch with them. I'm a member of them, but just looking at ideas, someday somebody has come with a great idea that we are still a little behind than other industries in terms of use of technology James: Oh yeah. Real estate is so manual. I mean, there's not many people investing in technology and it's a bit tricky too because a lot of people component Raj: And I was told one day that, (AI) Artificial Intelligence, the biggest tool, billions of dollars are being traded in real estate based on excel spreadsheets. That is the technology of choice of all these big reads and fund managers and they're just doing Excel spreadsheets James:  Yeah. I don't know why the real estate is just so hard to automate in terms of location because even like, if you look at a street, one side of the street can be completely different valuation from the other side. And how do you tell that to the software? You can't tell them that people have different preferences going in Raj: Well, if you feel that, you can tell that by how many murders were on the left side of the street and how many murders on the right side [inaudible 10:16] I mean, I just think the crime rate, our school districts and there are so many factors you can pinpoint it. Now there's so much data being collected on all of this, right? You just have to leverage the data and every time a property gets sold, a property gets bought that data is entered into a system, right? The analysis entered into the system, even for an upgrade, all the data has been entered so you should be able to tell that if I put granite flooring in this, or I put up vinyl flooring in this, or whatever, this is the gorgeous fettuccine down the road, right? Because that's [inaudible 10:50] James:  I think that's what [inaudible 10:52] does, right? Sometimes they do a lot of underwriting, they try to predict what is the rent going to be, but I'm not sure how big they are. I know there were some people really excited about it, but some people really didn't like it. I saw it once; the tool looks good for a tacky, right? If you're a second, it looks like everything's done for you. But I don't know for me, I don't feel comfortable yet. Raj: I think there's nothing. So all that said, James, there is no equal end to be having boots on the ground. So this is what I've learned James: Well, for real estate, you have to go to the property, you have to do the cost yourself Raj: Exactly. So you'll do all, that saves you a lot of time, right, because you can do the cost, the real analysis is done when you're there and you're looking at the property because we walked away from a deal that had everything looked good on paper and technology tools and everything, because this one building down the slope, had some structural issues that we didn't know, I mean, no technology tool will tell you that turning on some like pillars that are like fake  James: Correct. There's no way to know. I mean, as I say, I love all these tools, but I don't know for me, I don't want to pay so much money for this tool unless it giving me an automated thing. Raj: That's where the progression has to happen. The more they have to get better and they have to get cheaper for that option. Otherwise, excel spreadsheets help people doing their report James: One day will, right? I mean, if you look at it right now, we need a buyer agent, we need a seller agent to do a house transaction and the reason for that is so much people touch, right? I mean, a seller needs to know that he's getting the best value for his product. Only people can see the house and decide whether it's a good house or not, right? It's a bit hard for computer AI to really say that this is a good house for this person, right? Maybe one day it will. Raj: It will. They'll cut short the time or for your needs maybe James: Correct. And I know a lot of startups were trying to do all this right there. I mean, every tech guy who was introduced into real estate in the behind them is [inaudible 12:53], oh, I can do a startup, even syndication people are trying to automate right? They're trying to rank the sponsors, they tried to give stars to sponsors and everybody is trying to do all this but as I said, it's very hard to give a star ranking to sponsor there are so many other things that are involved. I mean, one day probably, yes. But we are not there yet with the technology, the information we have so how do you feel? I mean, you and I are almost the same, right? I mean, we're always in the technology space and suddenly become real estate. Do you think you've wasted all that lifetime in tech space? Raj: No, not wasted. It's a game, it's life as it plays out, now where I am my biggest strength is my value for my time. I mean, I control my time in what I'm doing, when I was working tech job, I mean, you had management meetings on Friday afternoon. I was like an owl, now if you go look at my calendar, you'll never find a Friday afternoon open because I dropped it James: Okay. That's good. Yeah. I mean sometimes people who have studied so much in certain fields, I don't know. I do see some doctors moving from being a doctor to becoming a real estate investor. I mean, at the end of the day it's all about time, right. Time and how much [inaudible 14:13] Raj: I mean it’s time and it's what you enjoy. I mean, I also realized that a lot of what I do in real estate is marketing and I love marketing James: Nobody cares in the tech company Raj: Yeah. So when I'm even in my tech job, my last job was in marketing. So I was basically a demand generation for this data analytics back on rebuilding. So basically evangelizing technology for people that don't understand it, it's sort of marketing. So writing blogs, writing white papers, writing all this stuff, simplifying things for them. That's what I had become in my technology job also because nobody wants to hear the mumble-jumble of data lakes and medication and all that stuff. It's like, bring it down. What does it do for me? And now he's the same thing, syndication and all what does it do for me? I mean, so marketing is basically attracting the right people and getting rid of people that you don't want in your system. So that's why even in capital raise or even the deals that we do it's very important to figure out who your customers are which in our case is investors and it took me a little while, my first four deals, I was like talking to everybody and anybody like, okay, this is what we have and I was like, no, that's not me finally figured out the people who are attracted to my deals, especially are tech executives, like me that have collected a decent paycheck, they have a decent amount of wealth, they want to diversify, they're paying a lot of taxes and they are paying [inaudible 15:50] that. So they want to learn about how real estate can help them with taxes, how real estate can help them diversify, a lot of them have invested completely in the stock market, which we have done that in the past and I've lost a lot of money in stock and that's why I never want to go back to stocks anymore and I'm trying to teach the same thing through my formal education. James: Yeah. Surprisingly not many people know about real estate. I know probably all the listeners here, they will. I mean, you are already learning and listening to podcasts about real estate, you already know, but it's very surprising to know how many people don't know about real estate and don't know what passive investing. I mean, people know that you can go buy a house and give it for rental, but nobody knows that I can put the money with a sponsor who will do the work every time Raj: They know real estate investing, they don't know realistic passive investing James: Correct Raj: Yeah, passive investors have become my passion James: Yeah. I mean, that's why I wrote my book too because not to introduce real estate to passive investors, I want them to be a bit smarter. I mean, sometimes when they got introduced to real estate, they think, wow, my God this is the best thing they just follow one way of thinking, right? So Raj: You just stole my line that's what I say, because, at smart capital, we make you smarter James: Okay, good. Because I mean, first, you get introduced to passive investing, second is how you become smarter, right? So let's talk about that. I mean, you said you have done some really cool stuff for passive investors and incorporating some technologies and all that Raj: Absolutely. I mean, again, nothing was planned. It just happened over time, my first deal, when I presented to some of my friends, they said, Raj take my $50,000. I'm not going to take your $50,000. You need to sit down with me, understand what it is James: Well, that's the problem with me. I don't like just taking money. I want you to understand the deal. Cause I believe it's a good deal Raj: I actually know the four friends that I had, I bought them tandoori chicken. I said, come sit with me and I'll explain to you what it means. So I bought wine and food. I said, look at this, I'm going to tell you what it is if you understand it and if you still want to invest, that's great. I want you to understand it because I can take the money and invest it, I mean, that's not a problem, that's the easiest thing for me, but I really want you to get smarter in my sense, you know, that's why smart capital and so that small group grew into a little bigger group and I created a meet up in the Boston area on just apartment investing and teaching what it is and growly slowly And I kept it small for a number of my first year I did it in my office in a conference room. They were like 35 chairs and who can come but we kept it very educational. That was the thing. We'll take a topic, we'll discuss the topic or make sure that anybody in the room is understanding and if there is somebody else experienced in the room, they're absolutely allowed to speak up and do so, kept it very educational, very different meet ups. A lot of people said, okay, Raj's meet up is educational so we're going to go there, and then I didn't have enough space so I took a bigger space now the membership in that whole meet up has grown to 600 plus people but we now get about 60, 70, 200 people monthly and I've kept it monthly and still, we talk about educational purposes There's no come have beer, learn about network and go back. That's not it. So to answer your point in doing so right, I've internally built some systems to make sure this is a smoother process for me. So in terms of the thought leadership platform, I have my meet up, I started doing blogs consistently. Obviously I'm active on Face book, LinkedIn, and really wherever else I can post my blogs. I also to become a member of the Forbes relisted council so I can do some technology related articles there and talk about what I'm thinking. So yeah, I've done all these things and now I have in a way that I've created this CRM and systems and attracting investors who, whatever platforms that they can get onto podcasts like this and talk more about what I've done in my past and just share my experiences, that's basically it. James: So how do you decide on doing a deal? Let's say someone brings you a deal, right? How do you decide this is a good deal, I really like it. What are the things that you look for? Raj: So the first thing I like, ideal deals only very few people. I mean, as partners, right? I mean, I'm not into numbers of deals and I don't count the number of doors. I don't do that. I like to enjoy myself, I mean, to [inaudible 20:30] my life, you're going to be just chasing money and [inaudible 20:33] James: You want to be peaceful too, right. Reinvesting the right sponsor because you can make an investment any-- Raj: --People that I enjoy, I mean, the deals will have good and bad times. One of our deals is we haven't done distribution, but I will say that I'll invest that deal again. I believe so much in the team that even because I'm so close to the deal and my investor is saying, Hey Raj, we haven't distributed work. I said it'll be fine. It's just because I trust the people that I work with and I could do another deal with them. So I’m very selective about who I work with, these are people from my coaching backgrounds, I've heard them say I hear them strength and they have to be complemented with my strength. So if I'm good at finding markets and I say, what, I'm going to invest in Orlando or Kansas City or whatever markets that I have in my head because I've done some research on data on that and obviously then underwriting should make sense but my number one criteria is the people that I work with and do I add value to them and they add value to me. So I will claim I'm not a good asset manager, I've never intended to be so I will always look for a very strong asset management on the team James: Got it. So you basically look for the sponsorship and how the team complements with you as well Raj: The dealership and the numbers should make sense, but that's true for everybody. You will not invest or be participating in the deal, that doesn't make sense James: Yeah. What do you look for in a very strong sponsorship team? That you really like? I mean, what personality, integrity or--? Raj: --Integrity, number one is integrity, right? I mean, the track record is okay, but I think track record, I've seen these guys done. I mean, it was not done like 15, 20 syndications, some of them have, but some of them are still early in the stage, they have done maybe two syndications before this one, but I've seen them through the coaching classes and going through with them to on due diligence trips. So I always go and make sure that I'm on part of, once we go sign up, form a structure, I'm going to get involved with all the due diligence and all everything. So I'd sit down with them and see what their work ethic is, how passionate they are about it, and will they stay committed with me? James: Got it. Very interesting. What about, on other things, in terms of the underwriting or in terms of market analysis, have you done any; have you incorporated any technology things into analyzing that? Raj: Yeah. I mean, I do my own technology things. I mean, I haven't written software for that, but I do look at a lot of data James: What kind of data do you look for? Raj: So, I mean, a standard feature, like population growth, job growth, and median income. We will also look at STEM jobs, right? I mean, I look at if it's a technology oriented job, are there or not because I mean, in these times the properties that are doing well, are people technology, company, people working from home, right? So all of that is important as well [inaudible 23:34] James: Got it. Very interesting. So is there any proud moment throughout this real estate career that you think oh, I did that and I feel really proud about it and you can never forget about it until the end? Raj: Well, the proud moment was I'm into partner with you on my first deal. I mean, that was a very proud moment. I told you right when the first time I looked at syndication when a friend of mine presented to me, he was on the GP side, I was on the limited partner side. He says "Raj I got the deal."  And I said, "What is this? This is like 300 units. I mean, there are too many zeros. There was no freaking way." So now when I did my first deal with that number of zeros, I mean, it was not 300, it was 152 units that deal was a very proud moment for me having gone through understanding what it means and then the other proud moment was to convince some of my investors to partner alongside with me right now that I learned this and I'm sort of sharing my education. I don't even call it capital raising. I'm giving them an opportunity to participate with us. I'm doing them a favor, sometimes I feel that way and that's one way to look at it and I'm saying no, every deal of mine for my side has the same investor. The first investor is always the same, that's me. So I'm going to invest in these deals, I've done the research; I've been to the property. Now I'm presenting it to you this deal, why I like it, and you're welcome to join along, so the proud moment was to getting that achievement, right? The first one and the second one becomes easy. And then the first one was the problem James: Got it. Awesome. Can you tell our audience how to get hold of you? Raj: Absolutely. I mean, I have a website, I'm very active on Facebook, but my website is smartcapitalmgmt.com. My email is raj@smartcapitalmgmt.com. Easy to use to get to me or LinkedIn. Facebook also is there James: Awesome. Thanks so much for coming. It's so refreshing to see how someone from the tech industry moved directly into a multifamily investor. I think a lot of people do, right? But there are still tons of people who don't, right? So it's just the thought process and sometimes the desire to technologize everything, sometimes it's hard, right? Real estate-- Raj: -- Why do you want to do that? I mean, you want to enjoy what you're doing, right? If building a technology company is your passion then real estate will not be the thing, but leveraging technology to get smarter is another issue James: Got it. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming. I'm sure everybody got tons of value Raj: Thank you, James. Thanks for having me James: All right. Good

As I am about to start a new business my mind drifted back thinking about how I originally started this business, Internet Business Mastery. I made a ton of mistakes. I'm going to list a few of them in hopes you can learn from my past ignorance and then I'm going to give you the plan that finally made it all work. As I said, I made a ton of mistakes. I didn't choose my mentors wisely, I picked who ever was most seen and was putting out the most info. I got on over 30 emails lists and I buried myself in beginner information and I let it go on for far too long. I let my fear stop me for far too long. When I finally started, I started a bunch of businesses. I tried mashing all the different business plans and advice into a Frankenstein hybrid business. I picked the wrong business model and one of my businesses actually became successful, which made it so I had to work at least 12 hours a day, seven days a week. I ended up hating that business and business model. I kept starting different projects, but never finishing them. I could go on and on, but there is a little taste. Now I'm going to tell what finally started working. I learned it from a guy in the first group mastermind I was in. This guy made over 1 million dollars a month with his business. 1 MILLION DOLLARS A MONTH! I told him all the problems I was having and I asked him why he didn't have the same problems and here is what he said he did: He understood the power of ONE. ONE BUSINESS He choose to work on one business at a time. He said he'd get it to a place where he was happy with the money and then he'd just hire a CEO to run it exactly the way he did. ONE MENTOR He choose one mentor at a time to take advice from. He said they had to have been doing whatever they were teaching successfully for more than 7 years and he didn't want to hear about fads. No fads in business plans and no fads in traffic generation and no fads in sales and marketing. Just fundamentals. He said the power of one was how he was able to get his business to 1 million dollars a month. I decided to take his advice and everything changed for me after that. I stopped building businesses and I focused on one business, this one. Internet Business Mastery double in size and profit each year for the next four years in a row. At 10 years in business we hired a CEO to take over all the day to day operations. That was 3 years ago. Don't make my mistakes. Instead focus on the power of ONE. One Business. One Mentor. http://www.FreedomClubVIP.com Jeremy Frandsen World Leader in Freedom Business Education

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Jim Polito and we cover how companies are handling telecommuting and the suit that was just won by contract moderators of Facebook for PTSD. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: In this case. Yeah. There was a lawsuit against them. Well, a labor dispute. Anyway, that just ended and they agreed to pay $52 million to these moderator contractors who developed mental health issues. Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here down South with my laptop. This was me this morning. With mr Jim Polito and he was at home in his kitchen. Man has coronavirus changed everything. So here we go with Jim. [00:00:37] He is our friend, our great guy, great, great guy, always taking very, very good care of us. And, he joins us. Now I'm talking about our talk guru Craig. Peterson. Good morning, sir. [00:00:56] Hey, good morning, Mr. Jim. [00:00:59] [00:00:59] Hey, I figured out [00:01:03] Jim Polito: the problem with the notes you sent me last week. I figured out probably, you know what it is. For some reason, iHeart must've changed something. Even though you provide content to iHeart, their email said, I think we need to put him into the junk mailbox for Jim. I never think to. I never think to check that mailbox.  I know you've told me a million times about the importance of checking that mailbox because important things can sometimes end up there because these filters are not perfect. [00:01:40] So I guess there's a good lesson here for everybody. I have two copies of last week's notes, and, because I said, Craig, I didn't get the note. Oh, send it again, Craig, I still don't still have them. Then I got smart and I, I got smart and I looked and there they were. Dumb Jim, but there you go. That's why you're here, buddy. [00:02:06] Craig Peterson: Yeah. The email filters, unfortunately, are a necessity nowadays. The bad guys, it just seems like every time you turn around, they're out there trying to ruin our lives. Man, it is just crazy. You have to keep up on this stuff, and that means you're looking at new software all the time. You're looking at what are the bad guys doing? [00:02:33] It just, it's a full-time job, you know? [00:02:36] Jim Polito: Yeah, it is. And that's why we have people like you keep an eye on things for us. and which leads me to something, I mean, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but speaking of keeping eyes on things, so Facebook has people who watch content. You know, it used to be done more automated and then until I think enough people complained, but they watch the content and you know, take down stuff that's inappropriate. [00:03:09] Well, unfortunately, these folks probably have to see some pretty disgusting things, some pretty graphic things. And these moderators got a whole bunch of money. After what did they sue for having PTSD for seeing all of this content. [00:03:28] Craig Peterson: Yeah. Isn't that sad a to think about that. There's a $52 million payment now that Facebook is making to these moderators. [00:03:39] Now what's really interesting to me is that they're not making this payment to the moderators who actually are on their payroll. Facebook has been outsourcing the moderation of groups to outside contractors. So in this case, yeah, there was a lawsuit against them. Well, a labor dispute anyways, but just ended and they agreed to pay $52 million to these moderator contractors who developed mental health. [00:04:15] Issues on the job. You know, you think of PTSD for our warriors that are out there, and this is crazy to think about, but so many people are posting such horrific stuff. Here's how it works. Then, the computers will look at things and say, well, this look might be a problem if it's an obvious problem, but the computers will automatically just reject it, and your Facebook posts just appear, or the advertisement disappears. [00:04:46] But in this case, what happens is that the computer's not quite sure. So it runs by a person, which is obvious.  In this case, a little bit of a problem in some of these moderators have actually committed suicide. That's how bad it's got. [00:05:03] Jim Polito: Yeah. I mean, listen, I was a crime reporter, a street reporter, quite a while. [00:05:10] I saw an awful lot of things. and, I'm not saying things didn't affect me, but you do develop somewhat of a tolerance to, but, but nobody. Yeah, I would imagine the onslaught of what these folks were seeing was constant because their job was to look at content, and I'm sure there was a lot of graphic content that they had to look at all day long and, I'm saying, you know, I don't look at this as like people do with the woman who got burned by the coffee or say it's a frivolous lawsuit. I say these folks probably saw some pretty nasty stuff all day long. [00:05:51] Craig Peterson: Yeah, well, and when people are complaining, it's, as you had mentioned, complaining that Facebook's moderation is on jobs to unfair and in many cases it is, you know, they have been blocked or conserve of content, et cetera, but have been a call for more of the human moderators. I think this is kind of a call to all of us to kick it a little easier. Some of these poor people that are you, they're working. Their job is to moderate. Yeah. [00:06:22] Jim Polito: Yeah. It's, it's tough. well, I want to stay on Facebook, not, not Facebook itself, but Facebook as an employer, because you probably heard me say 61% of people polled by the pioneer Institute, in Massachusetts said, okay. I would like to, after this is over, still have the option to permanently work at least one day from home, and I'm sure there are people want a lot more now. [00:06:55] Facebook, I made an announcement about having more people work remotely, but hold on, hold on. They're going to get a pay cut. I would think if I worked remotely, you might want to give me a little bump there because you're not going to have to pay for me, plumbing, electricity, a seat, space, whatever. [00:07:18] You're not going to have to do that. I'm picking up all of those costs of having the lights on, running my computer, having an internet connection. All of that. [00:07:27] Craig Peterson: Right. Well, what's happening here with Facebook is interesting there. There are two big shifts now in their corporate policy. Facebook is, by the way, going to let people about 50% of its workforce right now continue working at home through the end of the year. [00:07:43] But what you're talking about is real. They will be giving pay cuts to people, and here's why. Facebook is saying now, for the first time ever. Hey, You don't have to live out here in looney town, California. What you can do is if your family lives in Worcester, you can move back to Worcester and continue to work there. [00:08:06] However. The average salary here in Loony town is, let's just say a hundred thousand a year. Let's say it's 50,000 a year, so we're going to give you and let you live in Worcester, and for the first time ever, they're also going to be hiring people. From pretty much anywhere in the country. So that is going to be good for us because we're not going to have all of these people in the liberal echo chamber, moderating or doing design. [00:08:39] They're going to have what they are. Gonna call hubs in Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, where they're going to do heavy recruiting. They're not necessarily going to have an office, but instead of having everybody in the Loony bin in California working for Facebook, now they're going to have some, hopefully, more reasonable people located throughout the country. [00:09:00] Jim Polito: Yeah. See, that's the thing. Now, the federal government pays people that way. I learned this from an old friend. Who worked for the FBI. He was happy that he was stationed in Connecticut, B, because where he was in Connecticut was still considered part of New York City, so he got paid New York city pay as opposed to say, living on Cape Cod, you know, where the pay would be different or in New Hampshire where the pay would be different and interesting that Facebook is going to do that. Now here's the question. Let, let me bring politics into this is, you know, that's what I do for a living. So if I'm one of these Looney tunes who works for Facebook and I move. To a red state. I'm now bringing my blue attitude to a red state. I don't care if they're all in San Francisco. [00:10:06] Silicon Valley have at it. You know, you guys want to do your crazy stuff, do it. But. I've got a friend in Texas who tells me, you know, they're ruining this state. Cause all the people from California who don't want to pay taxes are moving here. And you know, destroying our state that, so it's not only an economic phenomenon, it could be a political phenomenon. [00:10:32] Craig Peterson: Yeah. I'm both directions here, Jim, because there certainly would be a problem with polluting the voting pools that these other States, having the people from Seattle and California moving out to Omaha, Nebraska, or wherever it is they move to, right. That's going to be a problem. But just like the federal government, I really think the federal government should move all of these agencies out of the Washington DC area, out to different parts of the country. [00:11:07] Because what it does now is it exposes them. To real people in real life and real conditions. So although, you know, there aren't anywhere near as many people working for Facebook as there are other federal governments, it would certainly cause some pollution. But in reality, I think would be a little bit better off because there will be just regular people. [00:11:31] Look at us right here, that the whole one 28 corridor, in fact, going all the way up into Southern New Hampshire was one of the major tech hubs in the, in the world. Frankly, now it's still a tech hub, but fewer computers and more medical space. [00:11:49] Jim Polito: Yeah [00:11:49] Craig Peterson: It's a good thing to have these remote from New York City or San Francisco or Seattle. [00:11:56]Jim Polito: I'd like to think that that's true, that, that, you know, they do get a taste of reality and will, will make their decisions differently. I mean, I used to love, a couple of guys, I can't think of their first names. Trout and Reese, they wrote books about marketing and their whole concept was what they called bottom-up marketing. [00:12:20] Like, you've got to go down to the end. Of your, of your chain of employees, where the, where the customer first meets the employee. And at that point to figure out what to do. Boardroom decisions are not good decisions. And, that's kind of the same approach, which is getting these people out there and they, they think differently. [00:12:46] Well, listen, I gotta tell you, I think differently. Thanks to, you. Craig Peterson, and I wish I just had thought a little quicker. Take a look at my spam folder and said, Oh, there it is, and I'll listen. I'm gonna. I want you to know I'm going to call the head of IT for iHeart media. Right after the show today, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna read them the riot act about Craig Peterson. [00:13:16] Craig Peterson: I appreciate that. And right now my text number is down. [00:13:24] Jim Polito: Oh, okay. [00:13:25] Craig Peterson: Yeah. If people want to get on some of the free webinars that I'm doing, I have come up with a, we're writing things, we've got a special report. Just visit quick peterson.com and right there on every page to sign up. So that you can find out about these things. You know, I, even though I ended up in your email filter, I am sending emails all the time. [00:13:55] I do try and get good information out to people just like Al Reese and Jack Trout has done for years. [00:14:02] Jim Polito: Oh, you've got the names. [00:14:10] I read every one of their books. Yeah. I read 'em I was taking graduate classes at B U a long time ago, and that's where I got introduced to them. And, I read, I'm going to say at least three, three of their books, because I, I was working in the business at the time, but bottom-up marketing that concept makes a lot of sense. [00:14:34] So, the same. And we'll see if it has an impact on Facebook. Craig, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and we will catch up with you, sir next week. [00:14:45] Craig Peterson: All right, thanks. Take care guys. [00:14:47] Jim Polito: You too, Craig Peterson. Everybody was all right. When we return. Oh yeah, and Craig Peterson.com he spells it like Peterson, but you know he's Canadian. [00:14:58] That's how they pronounce it. peterson.com you're a final word when we return, you're listening to the Jim Polito show your safe space. ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

This podcast is the closest I've ever been to entrepreneurship - I've put love and effort and the little sanity I had left into making it something I am proud of and want to keep on producing. Now I'm not claiming to be a business owner, nowhere close, but I do know a couple of people who have taken their own projects a little more seriously. Podcaster Scott Stockdale has been slaying the game will 'Entrepreneurs Can Party' and Ben Lyon is taking over Australia with Pride Promotions- very different businesses, very definitely entrepreneurs. I'm absolutely thrilled to have them on my podcast and they tell a great story (so get yourself a pint and settle in)!

Mersh from Revenge of The Cis and Dick Masterson have both decided that filing DMCA claims against people who steal your content is what FLAGGOTS do. Now I'm left reconsidering this whole copyright thing. Clearly Mersh and Dick think it is cool for you to reupload their paywalled content, so I figured I would have to give it a shot. On my newly trademarked channel NIGHTWAVE RADIO® I uploaded one of Mersh's streams to give this a shot. In the stream, he was doing the usual (copying Redbar Radio), and trying to get a guy named Wetmovie1 to say the N-Word. I figured I would help him out, but he didn't seem too pleased. I really don't get this whole flagging thing I guess. I remember Mersh thought it would be funny to deplatform Mike Cernovich, who was once a guest on The Dick Show, but now Mersh is sucking (up to) Masterson and pretending to be a free speech guy. Weird. PLUS: follow up voicemails from Spooky Charles about his recently deceased agent, and a BIG ANNOUNCEMENT with the Santa Cruz Joker. NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED. NO HARASSMENT INTENDED. NO TERRORISM INTENDED. NO SEXUAL ATROCITIES INTENDED. GET THE SANTA CRUZ JOKER T-SHIRT!!! https://www.belowthecollar.com/tshirt-stores/podcast-tees/podawful/pod-awful-vs-the-joker.html VIDEO: https://youtu.be/uj4ERo64_vo RSS FEED: http://feeds.feedburner.com/podawful THIS SHOW IS NOT MONETIZED AND NOT SPONSORED. SUPPORT THE SHOW. Get PREMIUM EPISODES! Only on THE PIZZA FUND: http://podawful.pizza SUBSCRIBE TO MY BACKUP CHANNEL: https://www.youtube.com/podawful2 FOLLOW ME ON DLIVE: https://dlive.tv/PodAwful FOLLOW MY TWITTER: https://twitter.com/TheNWord GET UPDATES ON FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/podawful/ Join the FACEBOOK CULT: http://podawful.com/cult Get a T-SHIRT or DOWNLOAD a prank call show at http://podawful.shop http://podawful.com

Dr Carolyn Lam: Welcome to Circulation on the Run, your weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal and its editors. I'm Dr Carolyn Lam, associate editor from the National Heart Center and Duke National University of Singapore. Dr Greg Hundley: And I'm Greg Hundley, associate editor and Director of the Pauley Heart Center at VCU Health in Richmond, Virginia. Dr Carolyn Lam: We've got a juicy, juicy feature discussion coming up. It's on a pre-specified analysis of the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES randomized clinical trial, this time to ascertain whether PCSK9 inhibition reduces the risk of peripheral arterial disease events or venous thromboembolism after acute coronary syndrome. And, also to answer, these effects are related to levels of lipoprotein(a) or LDL cholesterol. I'm going to keep everyone guessing, as we get on our coffee chat and talk about the other papers in this issue. And I want to go first, because the first original paper I want to discuss is really quite related to the feature discussion too. And it asks the question, what is the relationship between cholesterol levels and risk of venous thromboembolism? And, what is the effect of PCSK9 inhibition on the risk of venous thromboembolism? So this is from Dr Marston from the TIMI Study Group, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, and colleagues who performed a post hoc analysis of the FOURIER trial, testing whether evolocumab reduces the risk of venous thromboembolic events. That is, deep venous thrombosis, a pulmonary embolism. The authors then looked at data from FOURIER and the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES trial and combined them in a meta-analysis to assess whether there was a class effect of PCSK9 inhibition on the risk of venous thromboembolism. As a reminder, the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES trial tested alirocumab as the PCSK9 inhibitor. Dr Greg Hundley: Well, Carolyn, what did they find? Dr Carolyn Lam: Well, first Greg, remember, this is the first study to demonstrate a significant reduction in venous thromboembolism with PCSK9 inhibition. Interestingly, the reduction in venous thromboembolism was associated with the degree of lipoprotein(a) lowering and not LDL cholesterol lowering, suggesting that lipoprotein(a) may be the mediator of venous thromboembolic risk. More coming up in our feature discussion. Dr Greg Hundley: Wow, Carolyn. Well, I'm going to go into the world of PCSKs, but talk about PCSK6. So this study involves a secretome analysis of cardiomyocytes as novel players in cardiac remodeling after myocardial infarction and the corresponding author is Dr Florian Leuschner from Heidelberg University. So Carolyn, we know that acute occlusion of coronary artery results in swift tissue necrosis and bordering areas of the infarcted myocardium may also experience impaired blood supply and reduced oxygen delivery leading to altered metabolic and mechanical processes. While transcriptional changes in hypoxic cardiomyocytes are well-studied, little is known about the proteins that are actively secreted from these bordering cells. So in this study, the authors established a novel secretome analysis of cardiomyocytes by combining stable isotope labeling and click chemistry with subsequent mass spectrometry analysis. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow, sounds like very advanced methods and what did they find? Dr Greg Hundley: Okay. Carolyn lots of results here. They found that PCSK6 expression was elevated in hearts of mice, following three days of ligation of the left anterior descending artery, a finding confirmed by immunohistochemistry. ELISA measurements and human serum also indicated distinct kinetics for PCSK6 in patients suffering from acute myocardial infarction with a peak on day three post infarction. One of these beautiful studies combining basic science and human subjects in the same paper. In addition, adeno-associated virus nine mediated cardiomyocyte specific overexpression of PCSK6 in mice resulted in increased collagen expression and cardiac fibrosis as well as decreased left ventricular function after MI. So Carolyn, this study demonstrates how novel mass spectrometry-based approach allows the investigation of the secretome of primary cardiomyocytes. That's a first for that technique. And then analysis of hypoxia-induced secretion led to the identification of PCSK6 to be crucially involved in cardiac remodeling after MI, demonstrating increased collagen expression and cardiac fibrosis in those border zones. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow, fascinating, Greg. Well, I want to switch tracks here. Maybe ask, when you're choosing between antithrombotic therapies for patients with atrial fibrillation and a recent acute coronary syndrome, have you ever wondered what is the tradeoff of risk? Risk of bleeding and benefit that would be in terms of prevention of ischemic events over time? Well, guess what, I'm not going to put you on the spot here because our next paper addresses this very question. And it's from corresponding author, Dr Alexander from Duke Clinical Research Institute and colleagues who performed a post hoc analysis of the AUGUSTUS trial. Dr Greg Hundley: Okay, Carolyn. I'm going to digress for just a minute here. We have this wonderful producer, Augie Rivera, and he's just fantastic and we should give him accolades because he really helps put all these together. Now I'm not going to ask him this time, but maybe in one of our future discussions, we may need to bring him into one of these because of his expanded knowledge of all of science, but getting back, Carolyn, can you remind us what is the AUGUSTUS trial? Dr Carolyn Lam: All right, so in the AUGUSTUS trial, patients with AF and a recent ACS and/or PCI taking a P2Y12 inhibitor had less bleeding and rehospitalization with apixaban, than vitamin K antagonists and less bleeding with placebo than aspirin. The composite of death or hospitalization was also reduced with placebo compared to aspirin. However, the risk of several recurrent ischemic events, including stent thrombosis, where numerically higher in patients assigned placebo. Further analysis of the stent thrombosis outcomes suggested that most of the increase in risk was early within 30 days of randomization. And hence the objective of the current paper, which is a post hoc analysis to explore the balance of risk and benefit using a variety of composite outcomes between randomization and 30 days and between 30 days and six months over time comparing apixaban versus vitamin K antagonists and aspirin versus placebo. So, here's what they found. Apixaban caused fewer ischemic and bleeding events than warfarin in the first 30 days after ACS and/or PCI and similar or fewer ischemic and bleeding events from day 30 to six months. Use of aspirin acutely, and for up to 30 days, resulted in an equal tradeoff between an increase in severe bleeding and reduction in severe ischemic events. However, after 30 days aspirin continued to increase bleeding without significantly reducing the ischemic events. So these results really informed shared patient-centric decision making regarding the ideal duration of use of aspirin after an ACS and/or PCI in patients with AF already receiving oral anticoagulation. Dr Greg Hundley: Very nice, Carolyn. You know, lots of data coming out about how we perform anticoagulation, the administration of aspirin, both an atrial fibrillation, ischemic events, those with stents and this is just another piece of important data that we're so fortunate to have published in circulation. Well in the rest of the issue Carolyn, there's a lot of information. I want to talk about a research letter from Dr Armand Killick from the University of Pittsburgh, and he describes the outcomes of the first 1300 adult heart transplants in the United States following a policy change in the U S related to allocation of hearts. In an EKG challenge, Dr Nobuhiro Takasugi from Gifu University and colleagues reviewed the etiology of wide complexes. Are they aberrantly conducted supraventricular beats? Are they premature ventricular complexes or intermittent ventricular prereq citation in an individual 70 years old presenting with symptoms of palpitations? Then Carolyn, in one of our COVID-19 articles, there's an in-depth piece by Dr Kevin Clerkin and associates from Columbia University. And they review coronavirus disease that is caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome, coronavirus 2 or SARS-CoV-2, which invades cells through the angiotensin converting enzyme or ACE-2 receptor. Among those with COVID-19, they note there is a higher prevalence of cardiovascular disease and more than 7% of patients suffer myocardial injury as evidence from elevated cardiac troponin values from the infection and in 22% of those that were critically ill. And despite ACE-2 serving as a portal for infection, the role of ACE inhibitors or angiotensin receptor blockers requires further investigation. And right now, as you know, in your field is a heart failure expert, they are not recommendations to consider discontinuation for those drugs. And then lastly, in a prospective piece, Professor Gianluigi Condorelli from Humanitas University in Milan, presents critical organizational issues for cardiologists in this COVID-19 outbreak, including prioritization of unstable patients with cardiovascular disorders by postponing visits, and in this situation they did so by 80%, reorganizing clinical activities in terms of ward, ICU beds and outpatient visits, using a hub-and-spoke model to prioritize management acute MI, and then finally rapidly acquiring and training physicians and staff in the correct use of PPE. All very valuable lessons from Italy that was so hard hit by this devastating disease. Dr Carolyn Lam: Indeed, and you know what, Greg, I just want to tell everybody about our circulation YouTube channel, where we have frontline interviews with people dealing with this from all over the world. Thank you to Augie and his team for making all of this happen. Let's go on to our future discussion, shall we? Dr Greg Hundley: Absolutely. Dr Carolyn Lam: Patients with acute coronary syndrome are at risk of peripheral artery disease events and venous thromboembolic events. Now we've heard a lot about PCSK9 inhibitors in patients with acute coronary syndrome, but what is the effect of PCSK9 inhibition on the risk of PAD or venous thromboembolic events? Well, we're about to find out. The feature paper is a pre specified analysis of the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES trial. And I'm so pleased to have the first and corresponding author, Dr Greg Schwartz with us from the University of Colorado, School of Medicine, as well as our guest editor, Dr Erin Michos from Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. So welcome. And Greg, could I ask you to start us off. Tell us why you looked at this in ODYSSEY OUTCOMES and what you found. Dr Gregory Schwartz: All of our patients or nearly all of our patients with acute coronary syndrome have had an atherothrombotic event and most of them also have a heightened inflammatory state. These factors are also thought to have a role in the pathogenesis of peripheral artery disease events, and perhaps also venous thromboembolism. We typically think of the risk factors for peripheral artery disease as being diabetes and smoking, and less so dyslipidemia, although dyslipidemia may play a role in PAD events as well. And although the association of LDL cholesterol levels with PAD events has been inconsistent in the literature, there's more consistency actually with levels of lipoprotein(a) and the risk of PAD events. And that kind of makes sense because we think that Lp(a) has both atherogenic and pro-inflammatory and perhaps also prothrombotic properties. So elevated levels of that lipoprotein might promote the risk of PAD events. Now statins, which are obviously the mainstay of our treatment of patients with atherosclerosis, lower levels of LDL cholesterol, but they don't affect the levels of Lp(a). In contrast, inhibitors of PCSK9 lower the levels of both of those key lipoproteins. So we looked at the relationship of baseline and on treatment levels of both LDL cholesterol and lipoprotein(a) on the risk of PAD events and also venous thromboembolism, which has been associated with lipoprotein(a) in some observational studies. Dr Carolyn Lam: Nice. So, could you tell us what were the results? Dr Gregory Schwartz: So first, we used data from the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES trial, which compared the PCSK9 inhibitor alirocumab with placebo in nearly 19,000 patients with a recent acute coronary syndrome. And as you mentioned, Carolyn, those patients may be at elevated risk for other types of arterial and venous atherothrombotic or thrombotic events. We had three goals in our analysis. First, we looked at the relationship of PAD and venous thromboembolic events to the baseline levels of lipoprotein(a) and LDL in the trial cohort. Second, we looked at the effects of randomized treatment on both of those types of events, PAD events, and venous thromboembolism. And lastly, we determined the relationship of treatment effects on lipoproteins to the risk of those events in the alirocumab active treatment group. What we found are four principle findings. First, although this was an acute coronary syndrome cohort, and there were only four percent of the trial cohort who had a prior history of PAD, there was nonetheless a substantial risk of PAD events. About two percent of the placebo group suffered a PAD event during the trial and about one percent had a venous thromboembolic event. In the placebo group. We found that there was a very strong association between baseline lipoprotein(a) concentration and the risk of PAD events. So to put that in a quantitative framework, if we compared the highest quartile of baseline lipoprotein(a) with patients in the lowest quartile of baseline lipoprotein(a), there was a more than twofold elevated risk of PAD events. And by that, I mean, critical limb ischemia, revascularization, or amputation for ischemia, more than a twofold elevated risk in the highest quartile of baseline lipoprotein(a). There was a non-significant relationship of venous thromboembolic events to the baseline concentration of lipoprotein(a). The patients who were treated with alirocumab, the PCSK9 inhibitor, achieved the expected approximately 50 percent reduction in LDL cholesterol and a median 23 percent reduction in lipoprotein(a) concentration. And those effects were associated with significant reduction in PAD events, a hazard ratio of point six nine, and a nearly significant peak, well point zero six reduction in the risk of venous thromboembolic events with a hazard ratio of point six seven. And incidentally, in the same issue of circulation, there is a companion paper from the FOURIER study, which looked at the risk of venous thromboembolic events with another PCSK9 inhibitor, evolocumab. They found something very, very similar. And again, the results of that trial individually were kind of on the margins of statistical significance, but putting the two trials together in their analysis, there was a highly significant reduction in the risk of venous thromboembolic events with PCSK9 inhibition, compared with placebo. They also related those effects to lipoprotein(a), but not to LDL cholesterol levels. So we found that the magnitude of the reduction in lipoprotein(a) was related to the reduced risk of PAD and VTE events, but a similar relationship between the magnitude of LDL cholesterol reduction and the risk of those events was not found. So to put it all together, lipoprotein(a) may be the stone that we haven't turned over, but should, when we encounter patients with PAD events or VTE events that we can't otherwise explain. And although these two trials were not purposed primarily to look at PAD events, the findings certainly suggest that treating elevated levels of lipoprotein(a) might be an effective strategy to reduce risk of PAD events and VTE. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow. Congratulations, Greg, that was beautifully summarized. A novel on at least two levels, right? One is the PCSK9 inhibition effects on these two outcomes that we never thought of before. And second, that role of lipoprotein(a). Erin, could I bring you into this discussion? You were guest editor when this paper came across your desk. Could you tell us what were the considerations and frame how novel these findings are for us? Dr Erin Michos: Oh, Carolyn excited to be the associate editor for this paper. People who know me know; I love all things lipids. So as a preventive cardiologist, I'm very excited to have drugs like PCSK9 inhibitors in my toolbox. They are certainly known for their powerful LDL lowering effects, but also further lipoprotein little a reducing effect who these combined data show the PCSK9 inhibitors, not only reduced incident major adverse cardiovascular events and PAD events, but potentially can reduce VTE events as well in patients prescribed this therapy. So I thought it was really interesting and this new analysis from ODYSSEY, that it was the levels of lipoprotein little a, but not LDL cholesterol that predicted the risk of future PAD event and we saw a similar trend with VTE. And then furthermore, on treatment with alirocumab. It was the magnitude of Lp(a) little a reduction, but not LDL reduction that was associated with reduced PAD and VTE events. And so this suggests that the reduction of PAD events is mediated by the lipoprotein little a lowering and not the LDL lowering. You know, lipoprotein(a) is a particularly risky type of LDL. It's strongly inheritable it's atherogenic similar to LDL, but prothrombotic, so it's this double whammy of badness due to its structural homology with plasminogen competes with berberine binding and inhibits tissue plasminogen activator and ultimately inhibits fibrinolysis. And so that's why lipoprotein(a) may be a mediator of this apparent effect of PCSK9 inhibitors with PAD and VTE incidents. So how do I put this in practice? Prior to PCSK9 inhibitors, we really didn't have any lipid modifying therapies to actually lower lipoprotein little a, except niacin, which we don't really use. This was mentioned by Greg, statins don't really lower lipoprotein(a) and they actually increase lipoprotein little as levels. Although we do know that statins of course reduce ASCBD risk. So, I'm checking lipoprotein little a now in all my secondary prevention patients with established CVD and in high risk primary prevention with those with family history. While we're all anxiously awaiting outcome trials, such as the antisense oligonucleotides that can lower lipoprotein(a) by 80 percent, that therapy is not here now, we don't have that available in practice. But we do have PCSK9 inhibitors now, which can reduce lipoprotein little a by 20 to 25 percent and have meaningful outcome data like the alirocumab data we see here in this ODYSSEY OUTCOMES study. With a 31 percent reduction of PAD, that is really meaningful. So I'm particularly excited about PCSK9 inhibitors and my patients with PAD who often have concomitant CAD, polyvascular disease, and then regarding the VTE effects, I think we should point out that the absolute risk reduction of VTE was pretty modest. We didn't really see significance until we combined it with the FOURIER data. So I think given the cost of the drug, it's not warranted to prescribe PCSK9 inhibitors to the general population, specifically for VTE prevention alone. But in patients with ASCBD, who would be recommended for a PCSK9 inhibitor to reduce incident CBD, you know, there may be this added special benefit of reducing risk of VTE as well. Dr Gregory Schwartz: I just wanted to comment on a few things that Erin said, I think we’re really important. All of these patients were on intensive statin therapy in the background. So although we did not see a relationship between the further reduction in LDL cholesterol with alirocumab and the risk of these events, it doesn't mean that lowering LDL cholesterol has nothing to do with the risk of those events because everybody was on background statin therapy, 90 plus percent. So, I think that's important to point out. And I think the comment that was made about when to check a lipoprotein(a) level is very pertinent. And, in the European guidelines, they direct us to check lipoprotein(a) at least once in a lifetime for everyone, even if there's no other signs or risk factors for cardiovascular disease. So I think as Erin indicated, with some tools in the toolbox now, and more tools, perhaps on the way with both the antisense, and also there are small interfering RNA approaches to lower lipoprotein(a), we should get more accustomed to looking at this, to turning over that stone. Even if we're not a hundred percent certain what to do with what we find underneath it, we should still look because there may be some things we can do in the interim. Dr Carolyn Lam: Thanks, Greg. Erin, can I give you the last word? Any take home messages? Dr Erin Michos: I definitely think that as we move forward with other therapies such as the small interfering RNA and the antisense oligonucleotides, we need really more phase three clinical trials specifically assessing VTE. And then I just want to mention, although I didn't write an editorial for this study, I did have the pleasure of writing an editorial for another ODYSSEY OUTCOMES analysis that was published in December. You know, my editorial was entitled, "Achievement, a Very Low LDL. Is it Time to Unlearn the Concern for Hemorrhagic Stroke?" And I mention this because one of the barriers I get in clinical practices, people get very worried about the very low LDL levels that we see with PCSK9 inhibitors and I think important to point out from ODYSSEY that, with the reduction in ischemic stroke, that there was no signal for increased hemorrhagic stroke and that provides additional reassurance. So I think that's important to mention, I think this PCSK9 therapy is being under-utilized in clinical practice and ASCBD and PAD, these are really high-risk patients who have really high risk of recurrent events and our efforts to ward off these devastating consequences. We need to make sure that we're appropriately utilizing this important therapy. Dr Carolyn Lam: Thank you so much, Erin. Thank you so much, Greg. You've been listening to Circulation on the Run. Don't forget to tune in again next week. Dr Greg Hundley: This program is copyright, The American Heart Association, 2020.  

With COVID-19 upending our work and home lives, how does user experience need to change to reflect the "new normal"? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, I dig into this question with guest Bob Berry, a virtual operations and user experience expert who is a principal at AnswerLab and founder of ItsTheUsers. Bob has helped some of the world's largest companies, including Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and others, to create new, optimal online experiences in the age of Coronavirus and in this interview, he explains why companies must relearn what their customers and prospects ant and expect as their lives are transformed by the pandemic.  Bob says that to not only survive, but compete and win in the future, businesses need to create optimal online experiences now. Check out the podcast to get his advance on how to go about doing that. Highlights from my conversation with Bob include: The sudden shift to working from home during the Coronavirus has put digital, virtual and online experiences front and center in a way that they have not been before. This makes it imperative that companies develop a deep understanding of what their customers' lives look like now in this new normal so that they can craft experiences that match that.  Bob believes that virtually everything that happens in business is a set of individual choices or decisions by real people and the sum total of those choices is what drives the global economy. This is why user experience design is so critical. Because of changes related to the pandemic, we're going to have to determine, as marketers, whether the assumptions we've made about how people buy are still valid. And if they're not, we're going to have to learn what the new patterns are. One area that Bob believes will change is how people think about data and privacy. He predicts we'll have a quicker movement to more stringent privacy rules, prompted in part by the need to do more contact tracing related to Coronavirus. Changing user experience require that you look holistically at a business. Bob gave the example of his work with Deluxe Corporation, where he undertook an omnichannel business assessment that looked at the entire lifecycle of a customer's experience with the company. The result of that assessment and the changes the company made drove an additional $3 million to the company's bottom line. Bob says the best way to get started is by doing an inventory of every touchpoint that a customer has with your business. From there, you can use that data to develop a new narrative around what the buying journey looks like today. Understanding customer buying journeys is not an event, according to Bob, but rather a process that must be undertaken on an ongoing basis. One way to accomplish this is through survey tools and diaries that require your customers to document their interactions with your business. Bob has used a tool called dscout to do this in the past. For now, the two things that businesses can focus on are how they will stay in touch with and maintain relationships with their customers in the future, and what their products/services need to look like going forward. Resources from this episode: Visit the ItsTheUsers website Visit the AnswerLab website Connect with Bob on LinkedIn Follow Bob on Twitter Listen to the podcast to learn how the keys to business success have shifted, and what companies need to know -- and do -- right now to create user experiences that will position them for success in the future. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Bob Barry who is the founder and principal of it's the users. Welcome to the podcast, Bob. Bob Berry (Guest): Thanks Kathleen. Glad to be here. Looking forward to this. Bob and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I am really looking forward to this because this is an interesting time and as we're recording this we're I don't even know how many weeks -- seven, eight weeks, what have you -- into pandemic quarantine. I guess it depends on where you live and et cetera, but it feels like forever and the world has undeniably changed quite a bit in that time. I think many people are just starting to kind of find their footing in what may or may not become the new normal. So we're going to talk a little bit about that and what that means for user experience. About Bob Berry and ItsTheUsers Kathleen: But before we do that, could you please tell my audience a little bit about what ItsTheUsers is and your background, and how you came to be doing what you're doing today? Bob: Certainly. So, my history goes actually back quite a ways. I originally got my degree in computer science and out of college, I actually worked for Hewlett Packard back in the day when bill and Dave were still alive. It was a very different company back then and I was one of their early eCommerce business managers when the internet and the web came along. And that's where I first started getting involved in this whole idea of experience and how experiences can really influence what we do in business. Back in those days, we developed some of the early social media, online learning, e-commerce and cloud based services before a lot of those terms even existed. I actually left HP to get involved in a number of startups during the dot com boom, and started a company that did a lot of training and learning and curriculum for youth. We actually embedded some pretty interesting experiences for young people to help them get ready for life. We were pretty far into that as we approached the great recession when a lot of the spending was starting to dry up and entrepreneurs like myself were struggling. My wife sat me down. We had five kids, four cats, and a dog at that time. And we were surviving on her teacher, principal income. She worked in public education. She sat me down and said, Hey, this isn't working. We need to find a way to have my income be more stable and more predictable. So I actually made a big shift at that point, that was around 2007, 2008 and actually became full time involved in user experience and really understanding what impact that has on business, what impact that has on people. And I've been doing user experience in one form or another since then, both as an independent and working in a corporate environment. Now I'm working for a company called AnswerLab. I do that in addition to ItsTheUsers.com. AnswerLab is really focused on working with a lot of major companies. We work with Google, Facebook, Amazon, and doing projects for all of those companies right now around user experience and helping them to figure out how to adapt what they're doing and shift their online presence and their digital strategies into this new world we're about to enter. ItsTheUsers.com is focused on bringing new people into the world of user experience and really understanding how to do that. So it's focused on a lot of people that may not have a tremendous amount of money to spend who can't pay the big ticket research studies that some of those big brands can. So it's a really interesting mix. I get to work with those big companies, you know, they invent a lot of cool new stuff and I get to work with them and put those out in the public and learn how real people react to things that those companies are inventing. And then with ItsTheUsers.com I get to work with a lot of small businesses, professionals, entrepreneurs and help introduce them to this whole world as well. And of course now we're entering this whole new phase. Like you say, we've only been a few weeks into this and we're all very interested to see how this is going to unfold and what's going to happen as we try to go back to work as we try to get our businesses restarted. I think we all have a lot to learn about how this new world is going to function. Kathleen: Absolutely. Boy, listening to you tell your story, I just have to share that it really hit close to home because when that recession hit in 2008/9, my husband and I owned a digital marketing agency together and we had four kids and two dogs. I'm listening to you tell the story and we looked at each other and we were like, Oh God, we're in the same company. We're totally in this boat together. It's either gonna sink or it's gonna float. You know, it was, those were some crazy times. I guess for that reason, my heart goes out to people who own businesses right now because I've been through that experience and I just remember so clearly the stress that that put us under at the time. So that could be a whole other podcast that we talk about, but we won't, it would probably be very stressful. It could be several podcasts, but you know, focusing on the situation that the world is in right now, it's such a unique situation, but it's also, in some very interesting ways, at least to me, it's presenting us with a unique, once in a lifetime opportunity because it's really speeding up some things that I think were going to happen anyway as far as movements to remote work and the acceleration of companies really doing more business online and all of these things that we were sort of creeping towards over time. But that process has accelerated dramatically as a result of what's happened, and I know a lot of companies are kind of scrambling to figure out what it means for them. So in terms of user experience, I'm just going to hand it over to you and I would love to hear what you're seeing as far as the changes and what you've seen done well and where companies need to improve. It's a big topic. So, you know, where do we start with this? How is COVID-19 changing user experience? Bob: Yeah, it's a big question and there are a lot of challenges wrapped up in this. I think one of the major effects that's happening right now is because of the need to quarantine, the social distance, all the lockdowns that are happening, you know, not just here in this country, but really all over the world. It's putting digital, virtual, online in the center of what we're all going to need to adapt to in a much bigger way. Fortunately, we've been working on this for a long time with the internet and the web and a lot of these virtual tools and platforms have been around long enough that all of us, or most of us, are pretty familiar with them. But as we drive that massive shift to digital and virtual, if you look at all the industries out there -- look at education, finance, entertainment, sports -- the ways we interact socially, you know? Medicine, commerce... So many things now are being transformed by this and digital and virtual really becomes the centerpiece of how we're going to have to conduct business and interact with one another. In the midst of that, there are going to be a lot of new innovations. Things are gonna change. So some of the old ways of doing things are going to go away and there are going to be a lot of new technologies. We're already seeing some of these now. A lot of new innovations are coming out just dealing with the virus. We're coming out with a lot of new technologies and new ways and of course people, as they're working remotely or as they're living and socializing remotely, we're inventing a lot of new ways to apply this technology. So to cope with all of that and deal with all of this change, the experience really is the centerpiece of all that. And so Kathleen, I kind of have this crazy idea that I promote, you know, both in my role with ItsTheUsers.com and then in my research role with AnswerLab, and the premise is that virtually everything that happens in business is a set of individual choices or decisions by real people. So certainly in inbound marketing, if somebody is going to respond to some content marketing, if they're going to react to a paid ad, if they're going to click on anything online, it's all about individual people making individual choices and decisions. And all of those decisions happen within whatever experience we put out there for them to encounter. And in fact, the other part of this theory for me is that the sum total of all of those choices is really what drives the global economy. So if that's really true, if experience is that centerpiece, if that's truly what happens, then all of it is being transformed right now. When I talk about user experience, it's more than just sort of the traditional usability. It's really about understanding people. Who are they? What are their lives like? What are their challenges? What's their personal narrative? So understanding that whole journey that they're on and therefore how do they accomplish what they need to -- that's a key part of the experience as well. So, those trends that the personal and business people that were going through this massive pivot to digital and all of the new innovations that are going to occur as a result of this, they all intersect in the experience. So we have to figure out how to invent better and new experiences so people can function, so business can function, so we can continue to run and do what we do. And we're going to have to find new ways of building, deploying and verifying all that, because now we have to do it all remotely. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so true. It's very interesting as I listen to you talk about it, I thought of a personal thing that happened in the last couple of days that I think for me at least illustrates part of what's changed. Everybody's talking about how the whole world is all of a sudden using Zoom. I've used them for years. I've worked remotely for a long time and sometimes I feel like I spend more time with Zoom than I do with my husband. So for me, Zoom has always felt very easy to use and very intuitive. I think it was designed for a person like me who is relatively, you know, technologically fluent, spends a lot of time on their computer, working remotely, et cetera. But in the last two months, the number of users of zoom has mushroomed and it includes a lot of people who are not as technologically fluent, who don't spend as much time on computers. And for me, the way this has really come to light is, I joke that my unpaid second job is that I'm now a Zoom tutor and I have taught my sister in law, my parents and my mother-in-law all how to use Zoom so that we could do these family calls. My mother in law in particular just is really reticent about it and you know, she's a little older. It was really interesting because I got her to the point where she could get on and join a call. But the other day she called me and said, I want to be able to start a call. And we went onto that little, the Zoom screen. I'm sure most people are familiar with it by now, where it says like, join, start, schedule, et cetera. And she didn't understand the difference between schedule and start and join. So I was listening to you talk. It got me thinking that Zoom is a great example, it has this new audience that doesn't just intuitively understand the differences in those meanings and it's almost like they need to change that little screen. Just say I want to start a meeting, schedule one for later, join someone else's meeting. It needs to be even more explicit now for those people who aren't as much digital natives as maybe it's prior user base wise. So I just wanted to share that story because it's so fresh in my mind and it's nothing that I ever would have thought of. To me, the interface of zoom just seems so easy and simple. But then when I was walking through it with her, I was able to see it through a different lens. Bob: Yeah. I have to laugh because I'm sure you've heard the Zoom story yesterday with the Supreme court. So the Supreme court is trying to hear cases and make decisions using Zoom and similar kind of situation, there are probably a lot of them in the same age group as your mom. Well, apparently somebody used the bathroom and there was the sound of a flushing toilet. That's now referred to as the flush heard round the world. And I haven't heard yet who exactly was. So here's these most distinguished members of our society and they're struggling with something as simple as remembering to hit mute when they do something personal or they're on zoom. So that's a really good example. Another really important dimension of this that I wanted to bring up and kind of get your perspective on as well, because we're so early in this process, speaking of inbound and I've been, you know, been around the internet and the web since the very beginning and I've seen so many changes and one of the major changes that of course has occurred is our access to data. In such a big way, data drives what so many inbound programs and capabilities do. I think we're in the beginning of a major shift in data. I've also done a lot of research around data privacy and personal data on how individuals deal with this. As we try to deal with this pandemic, I think one of the things that's coming is we have to increase our ability to test, trace and track who's got the virus, who's had the virus, et cetera. We're in the middle of this big experiment where big parts of the country are trying to go back to work, but we don't have that capability yet. Google and Apple have announced that their devices can communicate, and we hear about new apps now being launched that are supposed to provide this capability. Well, I suspect that people, in order to trust this process of gathering all this data to manage the virus, are going to have to be very confident that that data is protected in a whole different kind of way. If that happens, does that mean new regulations are going to come into effect, new practices, new principles around how we gather and use data and are those practices and principles now and probably going to be a lot more strict, are they going to apply to the data that we acquire for marketing purposes, for inbound marketing purposes? And so what does that future look like? And so it's really difficult to predict where that's going to go, but that's something I'm really keeping a close eye on to see what kind of data requirements are going to be needed. What influence is it going to have on all the other data that we have out there right now? And, you know, then I think it also begs the question of is the data that we have now on our customers that we use so widely in inbound marketing, is that data still valid? Is the world changing enough that we're going to have to relearn some of that because people's buying patterns or their preferences or their economics have changed? So there's some big issues at work that we're looking at. Kathleen: Oh, I, I totally agree with you. I think there's absolutely a heightened awareness around data now, especially health data as you pointed out. Interestingly, I think businesses and marketers in particular are having to rethink the whole notion of personalization and tracking because so much of it was done based on IP addresses, corporate IP addresses, which, with everybody working from home, you lose the ability to track that way. Not to mention then the whole topic of accessibility. You know, when you have people who are visually or hearing impaired, who might have been able to physically come into a business in the past more easily now really can't. There's always been this requirement that websites be built in a way that's accessible. But so few businesses have really done it. I just think it's going to happen on so many fronts that we have no idea the tidal wave of change that's going to hit us. Bob: Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the key aspects of this that we're trying to implement and that's really a lot of what we're trying to stay on the forefront of is to figure out ways to track all of this, to stay in touch with these people, to learn, you know, individuals in businesses. There are so many ways that individual businesses are trying to adapt. Now businesses are coming up with some very creative ways of reacting to this. And then, you know, how our individual lives are changing and you know, how are we going to keep our fingers on the pulse of everything that's going on. And there's, again, so many dimensions to this. So from a research standpoint, there's a lot that we need to pay attention to, and a lot of new tools and methods and approaches that we have to put in place in order to continue this relearning process. And again, it's what kind of new experiences are going to be required to help people that maybe have never used Zoom before that are now going to have to deal with new apps on their phones because they're going to be tracking health data or you know, they're not working in an office anymore. They're working at home and what does that mean about their whole set of digital experiences that they have to deal with? So being able to relearn it, retrack it, gather all the data that's required, create all the new experiences -- that's what we're trying to stay in front of and trying to help other companies and individuals figure out how to do that as well. How are companies changing user experience in response to the Coronavirus? Kathleen: Well, there's no doubt that the changes, it's not just coming, it's already started. So I'm curious to dive into some specifics. What are some, some specific things that you have seen or worked with? I know you probably can't talk about specific clients and what you're doing for them, but, in generalized terms, can you share any specific examples of things that have had to change already in order to adjust user experiences to the new environment? Bob: Yeah, so there's a lot going on out there right now. So again, being able to understand, first of all, who is your audience and how is that changing? So who are these individuals? What kind of things are they dealing with? I think it's important to make the distinction between whether you're talking to B2B or B2C, because those are different types of dynamics. There's a lot of business and instructional and operational changes that organizations have to deal with as far as how to go remote. So in this process of staying in touch with your customers and learning what they're up to, how are you going to manage your workforce? How are you going to manage whoever your teams are as you go through that process? I think there's also a tendency to want to stay in touch with the larger trends out there. So what's happening, you know, socially and politically, economically? There's money available from the government and how are you going to get access to that and how are your customers and your clients getting access to that and how does that change what you might be doing with them? An example that I can name, where we actually did a pretty massive business transformation process, maybe it's helpful in this context to give you an example of the kinds of things that we've done that will need to evolve but that are still very sound practices. So a few years ago I did a study for Deluxe Corporation.This was actually in the midst of the great recession. So they were in the process of doing a pretty major business transformation and their business is very much about financial documents and checks and related types of products. We did what was called an omni-channel business assessment, and this was something that took place over a couple of years. We looked at a number of different touch points. The reason it's called Omni channel is because we look at a variety of different ways that they interact with customers. So we looked at email, we looked at web, we looked at their call center, we looked at all of their print programs and we also assessed their direct sales force. This was a combination of both B2B and B2C. The problem with just looking at any one of those is, any one customer can touch multiple aspects of their business. Somebody can pick up a catalog and interact with that and then they may find a phone number and then dial the number and talk to somebody in the call center. They may get an email message with that, which then sends them to a website. So there's all sorts of aspects of inbound marketing involved with this. There's probably a few outbound aspects as well. And so long story short, over a couple of years, we assessed all of those different touch points and made sure that the overall experience was effective, that people could find their way around that, the pathways from one aspect of it to another were smooth, that the messaging was consistent, and that the people that different aspects of that you could hand a customer off effectively from one, one part to another. At the end of the day we were able to drive over $3 million of new business to their top line by optimizing all that. And this was in the midst of the great recession when things were financially very challenging. So that type of approach I think is going to be a really important, that sort of omni-channel, multi touchpoint approach is going to be really useful, really important as we enter this new world. Because in a lot of ways, all of those different touch points are going to be changing and evolving for businesses. And if you don't pay attention to all of them, you won't have the big picture of what's really going on and the different journeys and pathways that customers might be taking in interacting with your business. How to get started Kathleen: So where can companies get started? How do they begin? You know, if somebody is listening to this right now and they're thinking, okay, things are going to need to change. We don't maybe know how much permanent change that it's going to be, but obviously things need to change. How do they begin to wrap their heads around this and, and begin to figure out what's the right approach? Bob: I think you have to start, I think a lot of cases with where you are. So what do you know now about who your buyers, your prospects, your customers, your users? You have to start with them. If you haven't already, it's important to begin to develop some sense of their story, their narrative, and again, who they are, what they're challenged with, where do they live and work? Are they still in an office? Are they still in their store? Is that whole work environment now changing? How they make buying decisions -- is that still the same or how is that evolving? So you have to start by understanding what are those stories, those narratives, those journeys that people are going through. And there's a variety of ways to do that. There are a lot of a very effective tools out there right now because the demand for doing a lot of this remotely is increasing pretty rapidly as you can imagine. So you know, if you go out there and look, there's a lot of different ways that you can interact with these customers and gather a lot of information and survey them or really understand who they are and what type of interactions that they're dealing with. So once you have a sense of who they are, those journeys, those personas, those narratives about who they are, then it's a process of understanding. Again, what experiences do you need to put in front of them? Are those web experiences or those phone experiences? Are they mobile? Are they on an app? What are all the ways that you need to interact with them so that they can understand your business and what you offer? Do an inventory of all of your touch points, and certainly inbound marketing is a key part of that as well, and begin to measure how much business you're getting through those different channels and begin to put in place ways to actually understand and observe how they interact with those experiences. You're going to want to do this on an ongoing basis. This is a process and not an event. You want to make sure that over time you can start to identify what are some trends that are going on and begin to track those trends. Again, there are a lot of different ways and approaches to evaluate mobile experiences and a lot of different ways to evaluate in person or desktop or web based experiences. So there's a lot of different approaches and tools that are available to do that. Tools for doing audience research Kathleen: So you mentioned starting by learning more about your audience and your customers. Are there any particular tools that you've worked with that are favorites of yours? I imagine there are some that probably are better for larger companies with bigger budgets and some that are better for smaller guys with smaller budgets. Any, you know, sort of list of your favorite tools? Bob: Yeah, so there are various tools out there that can do a variety of what we consider like diaries. So we actually have tools that allow people to keep track over time of how different apps or devices or interfaces work within their lives. So, understanding a day in the life or a week in the life of somebody based on having them create a diary of how they interact with your business or your apps or your website gives you a good sense of putting those things into context of who they are and what they're dealing with. So diary tools are really important. One that we use is called Dscout and we have some of our own internal tools that we use as well.  Kathleen: How do you get somebody to follow through on it though? Because obviously you're asking them to spend time for you documenting how they interact with your business or your product. And I know just from experience myself and from working with other marketers that very often even just getting customers to agree to doing a 15 minute phone call or filling out a survey can sometimes be a battle. How have you found is the best way to get people to comply and follow through on keeping those kinds of records? Bob: We usually provide some kind of incentive. So in many cases we, they get paid for their time. Some companies, when they do this kind of research, they may provide some kind of in kind reward. So if it's a restaurant chain that's doing this kind of study, they might offer vouchers for food or something like that. It might include something simple like an Amazon gift card. And so usually we try and incent people, give them some kind of reward for whatever time they invest. And that can vary based on how much time you want them to participate, and how involved you want them to be. But that seems to be the best way. Kathleen: Any particular approaches that work well for B2B companies? Bob: We put quite a bit of effort into locating and recruiting the right people. So a lot of times in the recruiting phase, we have questionnaires that we put together, and we ask people about what they do and you can kind of gauge their level of interest or their level of willingness to participate in something like this. We have a lot of third party companies that we've worked with that have databases of people and companies that they've worked with. So we also have individuals that might be more inclined to want to be involved, make a contribution there and are willing to follow through on this kind of thing. How are companies adapting to the new normal? Kathleen: Got it. So I'm curious if you have any examples of specific changes that you've seen companies need to make as a result of Coronavirus and this new environment that we're living in? Bob: Yeah, so it varies a lot. So just in my own neighborhood here, I'm seeing companies become very creative. We have what used to be a cafe down the street. Because people can't go in and congregate there anymore, they've made the shift to providing produce. They obviously had suppliers that they used for doing whatever they were doing to serve their cafe. And so now they've evolved to actually using those food suppliers to providing fresh meat and cheese and produce to people in the neighborhood. And they restrict how many people can be in the store. So being able to adapt, looking at your available resources, supply chains, customer base, and being able to think of new ways, and doing a lot of this online. So now if you want something, you go online, you can order everything that you need. And the only time you need to spend physically in the store is just to go in and pick up your bag and leave. So all the ordering and payment and everything happens online. Another example is a local construction company. I have a videographer partner that I work with and he's doing work with them to take everything that they do and turn it into video. So if you want to do a remodel or if you want to do various types of home improvements, then you can go online and you can look at a lot of examples of things that they do with video. You can also take your phone and do a video walkthrough of your house and show the areas that you want to have remodeled. And then they will take that and turn it around and they'll provide another video that will describe to the homeowner exactly the steps that they're going to take and where they're going to be in the house or what they're going to do. And so the amount of time that they have to spend face to face is really minimal. There's so many examples of this, of companies figuring out how to adapt, and how to do things better, how to do things differently. Kathleen: That's really smart. Having now spent so much time in my house for the last several weeks, I would love to just have them come in and tell me what I should change in my house. Because I have found that being stuck at home through the Coronavirus, you start to see like every little maintenance project that you've ignored for so long becomes that much more in your face and annoying because you're spending so much time with it. So I imagine they're getting a lot of traction with that offer. Bob: Yeah, they are. And they'll even give you a video of when the work is actually going to occur. They'll kind of stage it out for you and say, you know, we need to be in your home on these days to do these steps. And obviously all the products and all the materials and colors and all that kind of stuff, they provide all that to make that available as well. So those are just a couple of examples of figuring out how to adapt and certainly digital and online creating those new kinds of experiences again, are going to be a critical part of how companies can do this. You know, at AnswerLab, we have offices in New York and San Francisco and in early March, like a lot of companies, we had to turn on a dime and figure out how to be remote. And so that's another aspect of this too. Depending on what your business is, you're going to have to get creative in building and managing and maintaining a remote workforce. Now obviously for some companies, this is going to be easy. Other companies, this is going to be a lot more challenging. So it varies a lot in how you might approach this and how you might go about doing that. If it would be helpful, I can share with you what we went through in this whole process of making our whole operation remote. And it's actually going quite well right now. And fortunately a lot of the companies that we work with have gone remote as well. So we've created a whole virtual culture and whole virtual operation that, right now is, is running quite smoothly. Kathleen: Oh, that's great. I think there are a lot of companies struggling with that, that weren't used to working remotely before. I've worked in places that have been almost entirely remote and there are definitely playbooks out there for how to do this and how to do it well. You just have to be willing to embrace them. It's things like being on video when you talk to other people and not everybody's ready for that, but, but it can really make a difference. Bob: Yeah. And we have what I like to say is a MacGyver kind of culture, which is, there's all these technical challenges and everybody's willing to jump in and just figure things out, trying out new tools, trying to figure out new ways of interacting with our clients. How do we share information? How do we conduct research? How do we do a lot of in person workshops and brainstorming sessions and, you know, how do you replicate that kind of team spirit and that kind collaboration interaction when you have to do it all through a computer screen? There are actually a lot of really creative ways to do it. So figuring it out, just jumping in with both feet, getting everybody involved, creating a culture of making it happen, is really important. Kathleen: Yeah. I think the same challenge is really facing the events industry. I've been parts of lots of calls with people who've been talking about how they used to hold in person events, conferences, et cetera, and now we're going to try to do them virtually. Let's not just make it into one long webinar. Let's try and capture some of that same feeling you get when you're there in person in a new way online. It's a similar challenge Bob: Yeah. And that's, that's another example of it. Entirely new excited experiences that we're going to have to figure out. I mean, there's so many large events. You know, before I got into podcasting, I used to do a lot of teaching and speaking at conferences and, you know, we have to completely rethink that now. And those are a whole new set of experiences that we're all going to have to figure out how to create. How to validate that they work and people are getting what they want out of them? And then we're gonna have to figure out how to participate in them and, and make them successful. What are some things you can do now to prepare your business for the future? Kathleen: Yeah. Well if there's a marketer or a business owner listening and they're thinking, okay, I need to focus on this for myself. Do you have like two or three key pieces of advice for them that they should really focus on in the next couple of weeks? Bob: So are you thinking about the whole process of going remote or the whole process of figuring out what this new digital world is gonna look like? Kathleen: The latter. Bob: I think a couple of things that people need to do is they need to figure out what are the ways that they're going to stay in touch with their customers. Who are your buyers, your purchasers, your prospects? How are you going to develop longterm connections with them as they evolve, as they adapt to what their new world is going to look like? And then to figure out how to put your business, whatever product or service you're offering, how are you going to evolve that along with them to stay relevant, to make sure that you're still something that they're going to need and be willing to pay for? Whatever those businesses and those individuals are going through, whatever is changing in their lives, that's going to determine how your business needs to evolve to stay with them. So number one, you need to figure out how you're going to maintain those connections and do that relearning that's necessary. And then the second part of it is, what kinds of experiences are going to be required? And of course a lot of those experiences are going to be virtual, digital, online. Does that mean you're going to need a new kind of app in order to communicate with them? Does that mean you're going to have to now, like with the example of the construction company or you're going to have to start developing new types of media, like video or audio, are you going to have to create new ways of selecting and ordering your products? Does that mean a new eCommerce system? So figure out who they are, where they're going, what they're up to, what they're experiencing, and then decide how you're going to create the right kind of virtual digital experiences that are going to be relevant and important to them and how you're going to make sure all that plays together. That's probably the most important thing right now because it's changing rapidly and now's the time to start relearning. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Good advice. Well, shifting gears, I have two questions I ask all of my guests and I'm curious to know your thoughts on these. The first is, is there a particular company or individual that you think sets the standard for inbound marketing? Bob: Yeah, I actually, I thought about that quite a while. As I mentioned, we work with a lot of the big brands, you know, Facebook and Amazon and Google and FedEx and they have obviously some great examples there. But another company that I worked with for a long time is actually a fairly small operation. They're based here in Colorado, and the leader is called Jeff Walker and he's in charge of something called Product Launch Formula and years ago, he developed an inbound system that allows you to go out and find a target audience and interact with them and provide them a lot of valuable content and draw them into your product or service through really effective content marketing. He does a lot of books and courses and affiliate programs and video and email and stuff like that. He does a lot of the things that work well. I think the number one thing that stands out for me though is so many organizations and companies that I see online are using his system, which to me is the greatest testimony. So you can tell your story through PR or marketing programs, but nothing speaks like success and the number of organizations and people and platforms out there that have adopted his model. I think if you look at a lot of the inbound programs now, they actually use a lot of the principles that he developed probably decades ago. So he's one that I pointed to it because he's had such, such a big influence on the whole digital and virtual marketing world. Kathleen: That's a great example. I'll definitely have to check that one out. Second question, marketers always talk about how difficult it is to stay abreast of the rapidly changing digital landscape. I think the conversation we just had is a perfect example of that. How do you personally stay up to date and keep yourself educated? Bob: Well, podcasts is certainly a big one. I listened to a lot of them. I listen to them pretty constantly. I do a lot of reading. LinkedIn is a big source for me as well. I do a lot in networking, so I learn from people and I get a lot of great information off of LinkedIn just from what's posted there in the form of learning and articles and also, another way is just really through my colleagues. I work with a lot of very talented people and they're constantly presenting new challenges and new technical things to solve. And so that, to me, is probably one of the best ways I learn is just sort of on the ground, you know, with my fingers in it and trying to figure out how to make it all work. That's probably a big one for me. Kathleen: Any particular podcasts that you really love? Bob: So I actually listen to a lot of historical podcasts. I'm also a big fan of Sam Harris. Right now I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on LinkedIn about LinkedIn to figure out how to do better as we now have to do a lot more things virtually. And we don't have to do as much face to face and really trying to get geared up for LinkedIn. I actually listened to a very interesting historical podcast yesterday about pandemics and putting all of this into context. It was very interesting to kind of see the big picture over history. Probably one of the big takeaways there is that there are a lot of people who hope we can get back to normal and I think they're thinking of the old normal, but we have to let go of the old normal because it's gone. We're looking at a new one and we have to figure out what that means. Kathleen: Yeah. It's amazing how quickly things can change, isn't it? How to connect with Bob Kathleen: Well this has been so fascinating and I think you're doing really interesting work with a lot of really interesting companies. If somebody is listening to this and they want to connect with you online or learn more, ask a question, what's the best way for them to do that? Bob: Certainly LinkedIn. So look up Bob Barry. That's B E R R Y on LinkedIn. And again, I'm associated with AnswerLab and with ItsTheUsers also. You can go to my homepage at inbound.itstheusers.com. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Awesome. All right. I'll put that link in the show notes. If you're listening and you liked what you heard today or you learn something new, I would really appreciate it if you would go to Apple podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review. That helps us get found by new listeners. And if you know someone who's doing great inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommwork, because I would love to make them my next guest. Thank you so much for joining me this week, Bob. Bob: Kathleen, thank you very much. Good luck, so they say.  

Howdy! Hey KIDS, new logo! Same bat pod. Same bat channel. So I turned 37 yesterday. I'm something like 37. WAIT.......I'M 37?! IN A ROW?! It's funny. Doesn't feel like anything to me..... being a year older. Right now I have a headache and a stiff neck. And I've been nursing a fucked up Sciatic nerve for over a week. The last day of April was shitty, and the first week of May was and has been shitty too. Haven't been able to walk. Barely able to move or amble around. Been taking painkillers. Hate taking pain killers. Haven't had any substances in my body for months, now this bullshit. I used to be such a straight edge Flanagan. Ha! Anyway, this is the fabled lost episode of RR.(There's another one I recorded and literally was not able to recover but it is somewhere in my Chromebook). This episode was originally recorded the first Monday of December 2019. Dec. 02, 2019 to be exact. Ah to take a stroll down memory lane. I had to edit a lot of noise and ummms and broken wind out of this one. I was just fresh out of a pseudo online LDR so to speak. I was bright eyed, bushy tailed. Filled with piss and vinegar. Now I'm just in a drug addled haze. I wasn't pilled up until about 2 weeks ago exactly. I have another episode I recorded the weekend right before I fucked up my Sciatica again. I'm going to work on editing that one. Until then, here's something to satisfy the Nebraskan listenership with all their smart assy remarks and yucks and shenanigans and whatnot. Yes, this IS episode 23. Happy?! Ha It's not that long it was originally about 55 minutes, whittled down to about 45, edited some stuff out, not much, a few nonsensical things and whatnot. It literally took me a week to edit it and put it up. Blame the pain pills, depression, isolation, self loathing, binge eating, binge watching, and deafening silence, and a full mind. Also, blame my anxiety. But mostly depression. I start and end this lost episode very cheerful and optimistic. If I could go back and tell my past self what was going to happen, he'd probably throw his back out too staying at the gym non stop. Anyway, there's some music and movies and pod talk on this lost episode. The intro jamz I added these past days. Been getting into that AJFA album again. Anyway this isn't a livejournal, this is a podcast description. THANK YOU ANCHOR, SPOTIFY, KRISTEN CARNEY for introducing me to anchor, and FUCK YOU SOUNDCLOUD! Hopefully whatever is ailing me fucks right off. Enjoy the show, send anything and everything to dead_rufio@yahoo.com or tweet @RoamingReignz. Maybe I'll find my brain and check the feedback. Tell a friend. Or two. LATERZ. AL RATO! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/roaming-reigns/support

Now? I'm joined by Avery Evans from WRIR's Choppin It Up Geek to Reminisce on DC Animation's Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. Good thing CBR dropped an article to prompt this stroll down memory lane. 5 Reasons Why We Liked The Original Justice League Cartoon The Best (& 5 Why Unlimited Was Better)https://www.cbr.com/original-justice-league-cartoon-vs-unlimited/ Justice League x Justice League Unlimited TROY w Avery Evans of WRIR's Choppin It Up Geek | NERDSoul Covering:#NERDSoul #ChoppinItUpGeek #WRIR Avery Evans 'Choppin It Up Geek'https://wrir.orghttps://wrir.org/show/inspire-indeed-choppin-it-up-geek/ Also:Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Amanda Waller, Lex Luthor, Bruce Timm, DC Animation, Cartoon Network, TROY, Avery Evans, Choppin It Up Geek, Blerd, ThatNERDSoul, StreetGeek, NERDSoul, OneYoungsta, KURO Brand | Streetwearhttp://KUROBrand.com NERDSoulLe Ill Kid @OneYoungstaNERDSoul Online - http://ThatNERDSoul.comPodcast - http://NERDSoul.Podbean.comOn Twitch TV - https://Twitch.tv/ThatNERDSoulMerch - http://Shop.ThatNERDSoul.comContact - Hello@ThatNERDSoul.com Become a NERDSoul Patron!Patreon - https://patreon.com/ThatNERDSoul NERDSoul on Social MediaOn Facebook - http://facebook.com/ThatNERDSoulOn Twitter - http://twitter.com/ThatNERDSoulOn Instagram - http://instagram.com/ThatNERDSoul ABOUT NERDSoul:NERDSoul, by Le Ill Kid @OneYoungsta, is that intangible fresh--that 70 soul mixed with comics, some sci-fi fantasy, movie geekery, topped off with the Golden Era of Hip Hop. I've dDj Premier vs RZAloped NERDSoul over the years as a StreetGEEK, unknowingly by loving Wu-Tang, Star Wars, Stevie Wonder and playing D&D after school. NERDSoul comes from that StreetGEEK that can chop it up with the best, while being up on game around the blGroove Theoryk and Pop Culture. NERDSoul is created by Executive Producer Michael Young IIA/V Production by: A Full Tang Design http://afulltang.design Rest in Power Ali ThiDj Premier vs RZAz & Kleph Dollaz. Much Love My Brothas.

Janet hit different when you really lonely. Now I'm ready to speed date.

Hey everyone, it’s Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode 121 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holistic stress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. The title of today’s podcast episode is Six Stages of Energy Transformation. I want to share with you something that needs to be repeated. I am not a coach, I'm not, I'm not I'm not. And, but at the same time, I do teach a lot, right, I give a lot of advice, I give a lot of consulting. Yes, absolutely, but I'm not a coach. I am an energy healer. The bulk of my training and the bulk of my work in traditional "education" was to be an educator, yes. I went to school at Rutgers University and you know got a TEFL certification and trained around 60 plus English tutors and all while I studied there. So I've had, "education" (read: traditionally accepted or canonized) education, like a certain amount of "education" education, especially around teaching English and getting people to express themselves. But my non-traditional education, which has gone on past graduating from college, has been in Reiki energy healing. I'm a Reiki Master four times and counting. Now, this is something that I studied privately with different Reiki masters from different traditions. This is something I'm deeply passionate about, energy healing, and I will continue to study that for the rest of my life. I do not study Reiki for anything other than really for me. And that's my real identity, yes, I have the word "sensei," which is my title, and means teacher, right, so that is part of my identity but when I identify myself it's usually as a healer. I am not a coach. With that being said as an energy healer, there are certain things that I've observed. Now I'm entering my 10th year full time as a professional energy healer. There are certain things that I've observed around people's energy that after you have worked with people online and offline, like I have, right, in person or over the phone or over Skype or zoom or other things, like I have, if you've worked with people not just locally, but also all over your state, all over your country and in different countries in the world, like I have, after you've trained people how to do energy work, multiple times, right, like I have, you start to see patterns in the energy. You just get exposed to so many different situations and people that you can't help but start to see the patterns. And one of the patterns that I've observed now in the last decade of doing this work is that there are six stages of energy transformation. Let's talk about it! - Are you blocking your next business breakthrough? Take the assessment at http://www.victoriawhitfield.com/quiz to find out, and apply for a Breakthrough Call with me!

Welcome to Episode 23 of Painted Trash Podcast! Kicking off this week's episode Casey and Mark discussing the major activities and memories from the past week including a brief review of the new series We're Here no showing on HBO starring Eureka O'Hara, Bob The Drag Queen, and Shangela Laquifa Wadley, Ryan Murphy's new series, Hollywood, on Netflix and some of the eats and treats they have enjoyed. The Boys also are discussing the most recent episode of RuPaul's Drag Race including the outcome of the lip sync battle and the all-new secret Celebrity Drag Race with special guests; Loni Love, Tami Roman, and Vanessa Williams!In this week's Mid-Section, not only are their mid sections a point of reference and discussion, Mark & Casey are catching up on the political climate and recent events in politics including the Town Hall Fox News hosted at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC and allegations of sexual assault on The Dentures (Joe Biden). Find out our thoughts a what we think you need to know in this week's deep dive in to our Mid-Section.And of course --- Trash Talk! To kick of this week's topics-- are you finding breathing a bit more of a challenge with having to wear a mask? Well in a viral video out this week, a woman in Kentucky has figure out how to make it a bit easier for us all, but does it keep you safe? Check out the video link below. Then it's an all new Stay At Home challenge activity and Mark & Casey are serving it up for you. Next up, a councilwoman in Trenton, NJ goes on a 10 minute homophobic, anti-semetic, and profanity filled tirade in response to a challenging question from new mayor who is an out gay man. The Boys have some feelings on this one. The Mark & Casey are discussing (and painting) Nicki Minaj's tea revealing (GASP) "Used to be bisexual. Now I'm heterosexual." Lastly The Boys are reviewing recent listener feedback and mail received challenging Mark & Casey on a new game and asking what new games they have started playing while staying at home.It's hilarious, upbeat, and thoughtful episode this week! So pour yourself some of your favorite "port vintage" and get ready for an all new Painted Trash!Kentucky woman making it easier for us to breathe -- https://nypost.com/2020/05/04/covidiot-says-she-cut-hole-in-mask-to-make-it-easier-to-breathe/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Check out Painted Trash online at paintedtrashpodcast.comEmail us at paintedtrashpodcast@gmail.comFollow us on social media at;Instagram --- instagram.com/paintedtrashpodFacebook --- facebook.com/paintedtrashpodcastTwitter --- twitter.com/paintedtrashpod

On September 12, 2019, Erica Smith quit her corporate job and transitioned into full time entrepreneurship and motherhood. Six months pregnant with her second child, both she and her husband knew she had to make her business work! After an emotional first day, with thoughts of, "Yes! Now I'm free!" all the way down to "Oh my gosh! What did I do?" she gathered a laser-like focus and closed out her first week as an entrepreneur with over $9,000 in sales! By the end of the month she had booked over $20K and knew without a doubt, she was headed for greatness. Born and raised in mid-size Shreveport, LA, this Louisiana girl has always had a passion for all things, sales, marketing, business building and entrepreneurship. With an irresistible charisma and super relatable personality, Erica Smith is dominating the personal branding and online entrepreneurship industry. After her successful business launch in September 2019, Erica founded The Millennial School of Business by Hey Erica Smith in April of 2020, a four quarter online program for aspiring business owners and entrepreneurs, that teaches them how to create, market and scale any business, digitally. Her students have produced over $30K in revenue from her teaching and she currently holds a 1.2K% ROI, meaning, on average her students make their investment back TWELVE times! Erica also hosts The Hey Erica Smith Morning Show, an online video podcast for entrepreneurs and business owners. Every Tuesday morning on YouTube and Facebook, Erica produces a show to help you better navigate the ins and outs of business and marketing. She's a mom of four (bonus mom of her oldest two) and she has a sweet spot and passion for parenting, home decor, natural hair and cooking. On her blog, heyericasmith.com, she talks more in depth about all things entrepreneurship, lifestyle and motherhood. She's been married to her husband Sederek for four years. The greatest piece of advice Erica has for new and aspiring entrepreneurs is to just, "Start The Business". It's the student motto of MSB. "I wouldn't be where I am today, if I hadn't decided to just 'Start the Business'. I want to encourage you that you ARE enough and you have everything that you need -- and if by chance you're missing anything, I'm here to help you fill in the blanks, as long as you just start." Find what makes you happy and profitable I have ____ so I can ____ Don’t let lack of resources deter you Connect with Erica blog: www.heyericasmith.com youtube: Hey Erica Smith instagram: @heyericasmith facebook: Hey Erica Smith Connect: Find | Jacent Wamala, LMFT At WamalaWellness.com On Instagram On Youtube SUBSCRIBE | The Jacent’s Gems Podcast On Anchor.fm On Apple Podcasts

Hello and Welcome to Sorry! You're In My Seat - a weekly podcast which unites three best friends on a quest to find the greatest movies of all time. This week our roadworn heroes return to the homeland to talk about British films and film stars. Be warned for silly humor and plenty of laughs.   So why not make a fresh pot of tea and have a gander at this episode as Aaron and James sit down for a bit of banter and a good old chin wag. This week.... Which British films are the Dogs Bollocks and which are a Dogs Dinner? Who's A Full English and who's a Proper Melt?  And quids in, find out which British film tropes top the Sorry! You're In My Seat list.  Its all going proper but before you know it, Bob's Your uncle and it goes to pot. Anyways, enjoy! and if you like the show do us a solid by leaving a boss review or sharing the episode with your friends and fam. Be a good sport, not a wanker. Now I'm gonna jog on. Cheerio old chap. 

When I was an elementary school teacher, I used to tell my students all the time to "put your thinking cap on" when I wanted them to look beyond the obvious and do some really DEEP thinking to come up with creative solutions. Now I'm telling YOU the same thing! Adjusting to change and creating our "new normal" can feel completely overwhelming at times. But what if instead of thinking of change as crisis management, we thought about it as an opportunity to be creative? Join me as I walk you through a process of shifting your mindset that will equip you to not just survive change, but to succeed and create great success.

What do high growth companies with savvy marketing teams do to drive traffic growth? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Directive Consulting founder Garrett Mehrguth shares what his team does to help companies like Allstate and Cisco boost traffic even after all of the low hanging marketing and SEO fruit has been picked. TL;DR, It all starts with product marketing, SEO and a focus on bottom of the funnel, high intent leads. Garrett shares the specific strategies his team at Directive uses to get results for their clients, as well as his advice for startups that want to do it right from the beginning. Highlights from my conversation with Garrett include: Garrett says that everything Directive does is based on the belief that your brand is more important than your website. What that means is that when someone with high purchase intent is searching online for a solution, you need to make sure you're discoverable. He says that sometimes your marketing metrics have an inverse correlation with your financial metrics, meaning that if you focus on the top of the funnel, you might generate a lot of traffic, but you won't get as many high intent leads as you would if you focus on the bottom of the funnel (which generally results in less traffic). Garrett's advice is to track CAC (cost to acquire a customer) and LTV (lifetime value) and use that to determine whether you are paying a reasonable cost per demo, opportunity or proposal -- NOT cost per lead. For many companies, the best place to focus their initial marketing efforts is on ranking on review sites. Done well, this can allow a lesser known, newer market entrant to unseat an incumbent player very quickly. You can pay review sites to conduct review generation campaigns on your behalf, and Garrett says it is absolutely worth it to spend that money. Another strategy that works well is to use LinkedIn ads for awareness raising. Garrett says that leads that come through LinkedIn are not high intent, so you shouldn't spend a lot on a cost per impression basis. Instead, he and his team "trick" LinkedIn by advertising on a cost per click basis. Not many people click the ads, so LinkedIn accelerates their placement in the feed and they get seen by a lot of people. In terms of content, Garrett believes the traditional approach to pillar content and topic clusters promoted by HubSpot is wrong. Instead, he uses that same content and creates product pages as pillars, which he then uses to link to from blogs that address bottom of the funnel topics. Garrett builds authority for product pages by guest blogging (where he can control anchor text and backlinks) and doing podcast guest interviews. He says that where its tough to get your subject matter experts to create written content, you should invest more heavily in podcast guest interviews. Garrett's advice for companies right now is to double down on online advertising. Because so many companies have shut down or pulled their online ads back, prices are down and it is easier to get found. Resources from this episode: Check out the Directive Consulting website Follow Garrett on Twitter at @gmehrguth Connect with Garrett on LinkedIn Email garrett at gmehrguth[at]directiveconsulting[dot]com Listen to the podcast to get specific strategies for combining product marketing and SEO to generate more qualified bottom of the funnel leads.   Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Garrett Mehrguth from Directive. Welcome Garrett. Garrett Mehrguth (Guest): Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. And yeah, excited to chat about search. Garrett and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Yeah, I love, I love getting into nerdy marketing topics, so I'm really excited about this. Before we dive in though, can you please tell my audience a little bit about yourself and your story and also Directive? About Garrett and Directive Garrett: I'd love to. I did my degree in three years in economics and I wanted to do my masters in a year. I was playing soccer. I thought I was going to go pro, be like a pro soccer player. I hurt my knee, and that kind of reset a lot of that stuff. And so I said, "Hey, you know, maybe I could try this consulting thing." I applied to Boston, Bain and McKinsey. I'm not sure about Deloitte, but kind of the big ones and instantly got this auto-response. In the application process, I knew I was doomed because you go to their portal and the university I attended was not one of the options. I was like, "They do not tell you that before they take your money." So from there I was like, "You know what? I'll just build my own agency and they'll have to acquire me." I don't know why. That's how I thought, and was just like where I went. I had no tangible skills, so there was that problem. I have this belief system that perception is reality and I knew that people perceived I knew the internet and so I figured I should learn it. So I started to try to learn how to do WordPress sites. And then I got this little shwarma shop in East LA. I was on my little moped. I had a 78 Peugeot 103. I was going around town on that thing and I essentially got the client. It was really, really small. I don't even remember because I was so bad at this point that I didn't put the amount in the contract. I still have the contract, but I don't remember the amount. It's probably like 200 bucks. I did that for 30 days, came back on the 30th day to get the check. He said come back tomorrow. The whole place was boarded up. So that was our first client. I was selling $5 social media calendars on Fiverr and I was just hustling and doing all this stuff. And then I got a hookah shop and the hookah shop asked me to build them a website and then I did that. It was okay. Looking back at, it wasn't the best website. And then he wanted to rank number one for hookah shop and all that stuff. I said, "All right, I'll try." I've never done it before. So I went online, read everything on Search Engine Land, Moz, WordStream, Search Engine Journal, teaching myself kind of SEO and PPC. I ranked him number one and all of a sudden you got all these people in a shop and it was completely dead before. I was like, "This is kind of cool." So, one of my best friends who's my roommate said, "Hey, don't go to law school. You know, come join this company with me. We'll be millionaires" or whatever he said. I was paying him $3 an hour at this point. So we kind of just started from there and now we get to work with really large enterprise accounts and mid market companies, mostly SaaS, doing SEO and PPC still. So pretty fun. Kathleen: Great. Now one of the things that I think is interesting about the perspective that you bring -- and we've had lots of people on the podcast talk about SEO and PPC,  I was interested to chat with you because you do have these bigger clients and I think there are pros and cons to that, right? The pro -- having owned an agency myself -- the pro of having big clients is they've got big budgets. They've got teams to support getting work done. They are generally very savvy. One of the -- I don't know if I would call it a con -- but the tough thing about accounts like that is very often, they've already done all of the basic things that they should be doing. They're sharp, they know their stuff, they have their act together, so being able to really show results and traction requires taking things to a much more advanced level. As I think you were saying when we first started talking, you've already squeezed most of the juice out of that orange. So how are you finding those opportunities for the last few drops? You had some interesting thoughts on that and I'm really interested to hear what you have to say and to get into that technical level of detail with you. What do top SEOs do to prevent traffic from plateauing? Garrett: Let's do it Kathleen. So first and foremost, it's such a blessing because I got lucky. Everyone gets lucky, I think, in business to get somewhere. I had no capital. I started this thing with 20 bucks. We have no debt. We have no anything, right? I think we got Allstate when I was like 23 to 25 years old. And we've had them ever since. Right? So there's little moments like that. Or, we did the global SEO for Cisco when I was 26, I think. So like, you get these little moments and they really help you. And obviously you have to deliver, right? And then you can scale that. But one of the things that I think allowed us to be successful regardless of who we were working with, whether it was a Series A startup who was trying to go to the moon, or a mid-market SaaS firm that was trying to go after the market leader, or the market leader, right? You have these kind of three groups to work with and they all need to slow down and reframe how they approach the idea of search. And that's what I think Directive is really special at, is taking a moment to say, how does your customer discover the products or services you sell, and how can we rethink our approach? So here's what we do. We have two kinds of fundamental beliefs. First and foremost, if you can eat enough humility as an SEO and say that my brand is more important than my website, you become an incredibly powerful and creative marketer. So our first fundamental belief at Directive is your brand is more important than your website. What that means tactically is that when someone searches at the bottom of the funnel and has the strongest purchase intent, you need to make sure you're discoverable. Now, the old adage was, you need your website to rank, but see something has changed in consumer behavior. I call this the Yelp and the Amazon effect. See, consumers got trained at the transactional level that even before we spend $3 on a lollipop or on a breakfast burrito, we're going to look on Yelp to see the reviews. Well, guess what? Before we buy quarter million dollar software, we definitely look at reviews. See, Google caught onto this and they started to change the types of websites that they were showing when there was bottom of funnel purchase intent for SaaS. That's G2, Capterra, Software Advice, PC Mag. It goes down for days and hours, right? There's all these review sites. Well if you search your primary keyword, let's say "ERP software", and you layer it with "top", "best" or "reviews" or "comparisons", you have purchase intent. Also your most expensive cost per click and Google ads, all the sites are review sites. That's because Microsoft Dynamics has no SEO. That's not because Oracle has no authority or content. That's because Google is choosing to show these types of websites. So if we take that fundamental approach that our brand is more important than our website, we can be hyper successful. Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense. And I've noticed that, too, with reviews. Over the years I've spoken with some other review sites that you mentioned. They've pitched me when I've been at different places and it's really fascinating to just do those searches. And you're right, if you do it -- if you search those terms -- those are the sites that will absolutely come up first. So when you consider that you need to appear on review sites, how do you go about tackling that? Because it's not as simple as just claiming your presence and setting up your profile. You can still get lost in the sea of companies that have done that. How to leverage review sites to drive traffic Garrett: The first step we want to do is we want to take another fundamental hypothesis and understand it, which is that sometimes your marketing metrics have an inverse correlation to your financial metrics. And it becomes very, very, very dangerous for SaaS firms. So here's what I mean. Most agencies have this belief that in order to generate more MQLs for the demand gen team at a SaaS organization, they need to essentially increase the amount of keywords they rank for. They need to start going to top of funnel and they need to generate more leads. So what happens when organizations pursue what I call a "breadth approach" is they start to experience what's called in economics diminishing marginal returns. In other words, their marketing KPIs improve. So let's say you're trying to go for "top ERP software", but you just have a Google ad running. Instead of saying, "How can I show up more often when there's purchase intent?" and going with depth -- and so essentially expanding search impression share in Google ads for your primary terms that have purchase intent and then ranking on individual review sites through their cost per click models, and then evaluating all of that at a cost per demo level, not cost per lead level, and then doing financial allocation, right? That's what we do here. We focus first on demand capturing before pivoting to demand generation. So we go to the bottom of the funnel and say, "Cool. When there's purchase intent, we're going to show up as often as possible and as many places as possible before we try to show up for more terms." So this allows us to experience increasing marginal returns for our clients in the first two quarters and get buy-in. See, what most people do, is they start to go with their Gartner report and they start to leverage that, which isn't an intrinsically a bad idea. But when they start to essentially go after informational intent and go to the top of funnel, they start to lower their cost per lead, they start to increase conversion rate and they think they're winning. But if you're a savvy growth operator in SaaS, you know, like for example, I convert at 60% on lead gen ads on LinkedIn. Okay, target market giving me their information -- 60%. I get that all the way down to $17 a week. Yet that is 17 X more expensive than buying that same lead from ZoomInfo, and I have no greater purchase intent than someone essentially downloading an asset or me buying them from ZoomInfo. So now I'm paying 17 X on a cost per lead. And so that's the diminishing part where your marketing numbers look better, but your revenue doesn't increase because you have horrible CAC-LTV on top of funnel versus bottom of funnel. And so that's kind of the other approach, is putting everything through an LTV-CAC model and then focusing on bottom of funnel first. Start at the bottom of the funnel and capture high intent leads Kathleen: So let's, let's dig into that a little bit. So you talked about starting at the bottom of the funnel and going really deep to capture high intent leads for very specific terms. If I came to you and I said, "All right, let's go. I want to do that," can you walk me through what that looks like? You mentioned showing up as often as possible for that one, high intent term. Garrett: Yeah. So first we're going to do what's called category defining. So we need to find your category. One of the most difficult problems in SaaS, as most people approach it, is they want to create their own category or they exist as a subset of an existing category. You have a lot of experience in cybersecurity, correct? Kathleen: Yep. Garrett: We do a lot there as well. So like we've been working with SentinelOne for a long time and other large players in that space. Now that's endpoint protection, right? People know they need a security solution, they don't always intrinsically know they need an endpoint solution. Right? So how do you generate demand and increase MQLs if you're in a new category? Okay, so first we do what's called category definement. And what we'd like to do is not only position you in endpoint, but position you in the security software category and then do hyper product differentiation through like product naming conventions and positioning, so that your CTO or whoever that person is who's your audience, they're searching and when they go to security software, we want them to show up above the fold with your brand as endpoint protection and then essentially drive awareness from the greater category to our subset or our pain solving product. So that's kind of first step is define that category. Then we ask ourselves, are we above the fold? So on Capterra, when you land on that, do you have to scroll for a couple hours to find you? How many reviews do the top five have versus you? That gives us a review target. Then we'll help you and say, "Here's how we've seen other clients go about getting reviews and here's the strategy you could pursue." Now we have a competitive amount of reviews on all of our categories. Kathleen: Let me ask you a question about that real quick. Most of those review sites have, uh, call them packages that you can purchase where they will, you know, you give them your list of clients, they'll email them, offer them an Amazon gift card or something along those lines to get reviews. And so essentially there's a cost per acquisition model that you can use. Do you find in most cases that that's worth doing, or do you work with your clients to develop their own outreach and review generation campaigns? Garrett: That's totally worth doing. I think there's nothing more important than other people advocating for your product, especially with how consumer behavior has changed at the B2B and B2C level. So no, that's critically important. Now, what we need to be able to do here though, is we need to be able to measure everything on a cost per opportunity, cost per demo, cost per proposal -- whatever you want to call it -- level, not a cost per lead. What we've found across over 350 SaaS companies that we've worked with over the last five years is that the cost per lead between Google Ads, Capterra, G2, Software Advice, et cetera, has a really, like it's not that different, maybe 15 to 30% range between each. But then I found that third party review sites have a 230% lower cost per opportunity. And so what we do, like, we got hired a couple of years ago by a publicly traded sales compensation software company and within one quarter we increased their demos by over 300% by only pivoting budget. That's the craziest part of all this, is most people are still evaluating their demand generation at an MQL level, not at an opportunity level. And so the biggest, easiest thing you can do is go one step further and look at opportunity. And then the furthest step that we've now actually evolved to as an agency is putting all our clients in LTV-CAC models, and then looking at activation rate. So not cost per trial but trial activations, right? So how well people are going from trial to demo, or demo to close rate, and then we're evaluating channels by close rate or by trial activation rate. And when we start to do that, that's hugely powerful for for financial allocation. How can you use intent data to drive traffic and revenue? Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense. Now one of the other questions I had as I was listening to you talk about this, you talked about intent and bottom of the funnel and a lot of those platforms that you mentioned, in addition to being able to purchase a package and drive reviews, now they're selling their own intent data. Are you also working with intent data and taking it and creating ABM or audience match campaigns around that for your clients? Garrett: Yeah, so you can do a lot of that stuff. I think we, like most people, are using that engagement data or enriching stuff with Bombora for sales dev. Right now, if you do traditional ABM with account based advertising, so let's say Radius, Terminus, DemandBase, Madison Logic, Listen Loop, I mean we use Terminus personally internally. Now the reason is, is we need to be able to do cookie-based targeting, not IP-based targeting. Because, for example, right now, if you're trying to run IP-based targeting campaigns during COVID, you're not reaching any of your audience. Kathleen: Oh, you are preaching to the choir, because the product that we sell incorporates IP obfuscation. So anybody using our products, you couldn't target them by IP. I think it's going to happen more and more, and more people are going to use tools like that. Garrett: Yeah. I think to answer your question, yes, we are doing bi-directional syncs from HubSpot, Marketo, Pardot or Salesforce into our ad platforms. But you still have a really poor match rate because people are using personal emails on social because they don't want to get fired from their company and their LinkedIn goes down. So, essentially what happens is, your match rate is really poor on social because the only one who still has firmographics after the whole Cambridge analytical debacle, -- because you've got Axiom data in Facebook and you can be really powerful there. Twitter has always been crap, but essentially GDN is terrible right now unless you're doing managed placements, you're actually going in a search engine results page and then searching keywords and then finding every site that ranks in the top five for your keyword that uses GDN and then doing targeted URL placements That works because it comes off as a native ad. But then other than LinkedIn, it's not working. But then LinkedIn fails because there's no purchase intent and the CPA is too high. And so what we're finding is the way we're doing LinkedIn is awareness, with text ads and spotlight ads. And that's actually working. But there's a lot of nuance in all that for sure. How to use LinkedIn ads to raise brand awareness Kathleen: So then you're generating awareness on LinkedIn and are you hoping effectively that that'll get somebody to go to the client's website? Then, you can retarget them on other platforms? Garrett: We're actually being a little bit humbler than that because I don't think I can control my user. And what I mean by that is, the click through rate is crap on LinkedIn. In fact, it's so bad for spotlight and text ads and we've tricked it and we've figured out a game. So we run brand campaigns for our clients and for ourselves based on what I call "clarity." It's this concept of saying what you do and who you do it for, and being humble enough to know that you have to get your message across without the click. So what we do is we actually do it on a cost per click level on LinkedIn and we're able to deliver because nobody clicks. What happens is LinkedIn accelerates our impressions and gives us a much lower CPM when I do CPC, than when I do CPM on LinkedIn. And then we personify everything. This is the biggest trick to LinkedIn. So you take your primary asset, let's say "The Ultimate Guide to Demand Generation", and then you turn it into "The VP's Guide to Demand Generation", "The CMO's Guide to Demand Generation", and "The Marketing Manager's Guide to Demand Generation." All you have to do is change the cover page and then run lead gen ads and we're converting at over 50% across the board. So there's that route. And then the awareness campaigns and the text ads and spotlight ads, you're on a CPC level and then you focus on what you do and who you do it for, and then you personify that. You put that all together and you have really, really cool awareness campaigns. And then I say, spend as much money as you're willing to never stop losing. And if you take that approach and you say, "Look, are you willing to spend $5,000 a month until you die and not know what it does for you?" Because I'll tell you right now, I can target your exact audience to perfection and deliver your message to them till you've decided you're done with this organization. "Are you okay 'wasting' five grand a month so that every person in your audience on LinkedIn knows who you are?" Yeah. The trick is to not get results. Because what happens is, people go into it thinking they'll get results and they pause before they ever could have gotten results through a brand campaign. And so when you take the other approach, it works really well. Kathleen: Yeah. That's a really interesting way to think about it. I would love to be a fly on the wall as you have those conversations with clients to be like, you know, "You're going to spend all this money and I'm not going to show you any quantifiable results from it, but you're going to have to believe that the results are there." It's like playing the long game and having faith. Garrett: Yeah. Do you believe that this is your exact persona on LinkedIn? Here's your exact title, firmographic, industry, size of account, revenue...do you believe that? Yes. Do you believe that your message is valuable enough to communicate it to them on a consistent basis? Yes. Cool. How much does your company spend on snacks? Kathleen: Give up the jelly beans and advertise on LinkedIn! Garrett: Yeah. Honestly, it's the frappuccino a day is the kind of the joke I make. What's your coffee budget? Cool. Could you spend that on this and never stop it? And it usually gets some pretty good buy-in. How to optimize your website for traffic Kathleen: That's a really interesting way to think about it. Do you do anything with your clients in terms of what they should be doing on their own site to support all of this? You talked about how it's not necessarily about everybody getting to your website, and how the brand is more important, but I would think that there are still some things they need to be doing on the site to provide supportive content and other assets that you can then use to go out and have success on these other platforms. Garrett: Yeah, that's a relative statement to shock people to think differently. It's not that your website's not important. It's that your brand truly is more important than your website. You really have to understand your brand is more important than it was. Now your website is obviously critical, so what you need to be able to do is communicate who you are and who you're for and what you do for them. We do custom landing pages here. We have a really strong conversion rate optimization team. And so all that review site stuff I'm telling you about, we're split testing two custom landing pages with messaging, calls to action and what I like to call psychological friction tests. So the biggest issue right now in all of SaaS that they could change if they listened to this, is changing their call to action. Almost universally it's "request a demo." There is nothing more psychologically friction than "request a demo." Every time I speak to an audience, and I get to speak about 30 to 40 times a year at conferences, I love to ask, who here likes to do a demo? Who here likes to have a day of demos? Nobody raises their hand. Kathleen: That's like saying, "Who here likes to sit through an hour long webinar?" Garrett: Yeah, and so when I ask them, I said, what if you did something really simple? What if you change it from request a demo to watch demo video? You still gated it. You still sent that lead to sales development or your account executives, but you are asking yourself, can I give my visitor something of equal or greater value to what they're giving me? That's the number one question with calls to action and demand generation is, am I giving someone something of greater value than they're giving me? When someone requests a demo, they fill out a form and nothing happens and it says "Someone from our team will contact you in 24 hours." You're not doing it. So what we always do, and we can take clients universally from around 2 to 3%, to over 10% conversion rates by simply doing watch demo video. And then all we do is have a form that says "Fill this out and we're going to give you a five minute demo video so that you can have a better educated sales conversation when we follow up." Close rates go up, activation goes up, sales development teams are begging for these leads because they're having product conversations, not like "who we are and these lame 30 minute intro slides" to finally get to price. It works universally, exceptionally well. So that's what we do on the website level. But when it comes to content, and I think that's kind of where you're headed with this, is like what do you do with that content engine? Are you familiar with HubSpot's pillar content approach that everybody's following? I think it's a bad approach, financially. The reason I believe it's a bad approach financially, it's due to what I was communicating earlier. HubSpot's approach is you take a really, really beautiful strong asset, and then you lead to that asset with other types of content clusters that support that and you essentially do lead generation through that asset. I say, do that same thing but with features. Here's an example. We do our own SaaS products at Directive to make sure that we're not just full of crap. Not enough people do that. We rank in the top five for all our keywords. We actually spend a ton of money on PPC and we try to actually test everything and our hypotheses on ourselves. What we're doing right now is, we have an educational product called Institute. This teaches our clients and we give to our clients free of charge because we believe that education drives adoption. As consultants, you don't need to only make recommendations, you need clients to adopt them, right? And so we need to educate them as to why. So we educate them on SEO, PPC, et cetera. We sell it to the market for $39 a month. It teaches people how we do what we do, all our templates, our approach, et cetera. We have 40 lessons. So I'm asking myself, at a $39 a month product, my CPA, my cost per lead is too high to do a ton of paid acquisition. So how can I drive organic leads from my product? So here's my strategy and I'll share with your audience because hopefully it can help them. I'm taking the top five to 10 keywords for every one of my lesson pages. So, "how to do Google ads" or "how to do keyword research for PPC", okay? So then I put "keyword research for PPC" into a keyword research tool. Now I take the top five questions people ask around that. Now I'm going to use entity tools like Clearscope or Content Harmony or something like that to really understand what I need to write here to rank. So then I write five articles all around that one lesson. Then, above the fold on all five articles, I link to that lesson and say "Want to learn how to do it with video?" and come up with an offer that resonates with where they're at in intent. In other words, they intend to learn this. That's why they're searching it. I can satisfy that intent with my product feature, AKA my lesson. And now I also create a content cluster. So all of these content pieces around this topic are internally linking back to my lesson page, which I'm trying to rank at the bottom of the funnel. And so I'm using middle and top of funnel content with lead gen assets all internally linking and with magnets essentially generating leads for my product. So instead of trying to generate informational intent leads, I'm trying to generate purchase intent leads. So their hypothesis of what they want to do with content clusters works for HubSpot. The issue is that getting someone from informational intent to purchase intent is incredibly long and most marketing people won't survive their tenure if they're only focused on driving informational intent leads. So we try to pivot everything to purchase intent. Does that make sense? Kathleen: Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is basically the product page on your site effectively as the pillar. Garrett: Yup. Turning product pages into content pillars Kathleen: The same exact approach applies only you're not writing a 4,000 word guide. You're creating the product page. Garrett: Yeah. You just audit all the competitors in the industry to say, "Okay, how many words do I need on my product page to rank? How many internal links do I need? How many referring domains do I need?" And then you say, "Cool, now I'm going to create the entity, the topical understanding to Google that we're the best answer to the questions people have related to the product we sell." And then when you do that whole approach, you're amazing at what you can do when driving MQLs and demos at the bottom of funnel. What should your SEO strategy look like if you're just getting started? Kathleen: So one of the things we talked about when when you and I first chatted about this was that, you work with a lot of big companies and they're coming to you and saying, "We're already doing a lot right. How can you take us to the next level?" But then there is this other school of thought that, if you have, let's say a startup or a new company or a company launching a new product, they have this opportunity to do it right from the beginning -- to greenfield it. Paint a picture for me of what that looks like. You're starting a new company and you want to really ace it out of the gates. Garrett: First and foremost, I'm going to look at all the review sites and ask myself how many reviews I need to be perceived as a market leader. It's the coolest thing in the world, right? Because someone searches now "top whatever software" you sell, and a review site shows up. You don't actually have to be the best! You might not be because you've only been in the game for a couple of months. But if you can get the reviews there, you look like you're the best and that's 99.9% of marketing. So first and foremost, we're going to position ourselves to be discoverable. When there's purchase intent, we're going to focus on demand capture, okay? Because to rank our website as a new organization, we don't have the authority, link profile or content, and investing in all those things takes a large financial upfront investment and has a long runway -- probably two years to build that organic engine. So if you have a 24 month runway to build your organic engine and you need MQLs now, the easiest thing to do is paid SEO. Now with that being said, we don't want to wait two years to try to rank because now we have another two years to get there, right? So we need to start from the beginning to try to position ourselves organically, to lower our cost per acquisition and have a better CAC-LTV ratio. So what do we do? We are going to say, when someone searches for your product or your features, we're going to try to create as much bottom of funnel content as possible. So not only a product page, but a feature page and solution pages. These are saying when someone has pain that your product solves and they go to discover that, can we show up? Perfect. Next what we're going to do is, we're going to start with our link building. So one of the things I had to do at Directive is, before we niched into SaaS, we were niched into just B2B. We had a lot of like manufacturers like Pelican Cases and stuff like that. So we had a lot of B2B players as well. So I couldn't rank for the keyword "B2B SEO", but I wanted to. I didn't have enough authority. My site wasn't large enough. It just wasn't going to happen. So what I did is I went on Search Engine Journal and I wrote, or Search Engine Land, I think it was, a fresh perspective on B2B SEO. In other words, I used someone else's site to rank for my keyword and they control the narrative. So with a startup, what you're gonna want to do is, you're going to go on CIO or Tech Crunch and instead of just bragging about how much money you raised, you're going to want to actually try to position yourself for what your buyer journey is like. We're going to leverage these other third party sites to do what's called guest posting to then rank exceptionally well for these top of funnel queries while internally linking from those guest posts back to our bottom of funnel pages we already built so that we can once again increase our rankings for purchase intent. So you can actually win at the bottom of funnel faster than people realize because nobody's product pages naturally build links. So if you do a really aggressive link building strategy early, using guest posting where you can control the anchor text and the destination URL to point to bottom of funnel pages, you can grow. And so then from that guest posting for bottom of funnel, now we'll focus on those products, kind of clusters we were talking about and our blog strategy, as well as Google ads review sites. And next thing you know, you're 24 months later, you might have one of the best imagine engines in the whole entire industry because you did it right. How to get executives and subject matter experts to create content Kathleen: Love it. One of the pieces of pushback I hear often, especially when you're a startup and you don't have a huge team where often your CEO or your CTO are the primary thought leaders and they're busy, I hear a lot of "Oh, we don't have the time to do all that writing." Any tips for how you can get the goods out of their heads and onto paper in a way that's efficient and scalable? Garrett: Yeah, the most scalable, best link building and PR you can possibly do is exactly what I'm doing right now. Podcasts. There's zero preparation for the thought leader. It takes exponentially less time and you have a much more engaged audience than an article. The best part is, when you guest post and you pitch a guest post, your success rate isn't always as high because not everybody accepts guest posts. Not everybody cares what you have to say. Sometimes editors are busy. On the flip side, the entire podcast content medium is guest dependent. So Kathleen's job is to secure interesting, engaging hosts for her audience. And so when you pitch Kathleen, you're going to have a much higher success rate than if you pitched Kathleen blog articles because now Kathleen has to edit your blog. She might not agree with your opinions because blogs aren't intrinsically the same format as podcasts. They're not op-ed like podcasts are. And so the best thing SaaS companies can do right now is link-building via podcast, hands down highest success rate, most scalable, easiest ended up. Kathleen: I totally agree, but I will say please, for the love of all that is Holy, take two minutes and learn something about the podcast and what it's about and tailor your pitch. I get pitched a lot, by a lot of podcast booking agents. Generally they're pretty good at doing their homework. But I can't tell you how often I get pitched from people who are like, "So-and-so built his real estate empire and can talk about earning money and like changing your life." And I write back and I'm like, "What does this have to do with inbound marketing? This person sounds like an amazing entrepreneur, but that's not what my podcast is about." Garrett: I'd say we have over a 75% success rate. So I'd give your audience some tips on how they can pitch. Get their name right. I know it sounds simple. Write a subject line that doesn't stink. Everything should be about how you make the podcast host's life easier and better for their audience. What I mean by that is there's a really important word when you do outbound or pitching. You say, "I am emailing you because", and that quickly allows someone to know why. And then you hit them with why the audience cares, not about yourself. So a lot of people like to say, "Hey, you know, my client, uh, built his agency from one to $10 million, you know, would love to be a guest on your show. He's been featured by Forbes, Tech Crunch, in the Inc 5,000." And then the podcast host goes, "Who cares?" Right? Compared to saying, "I'm emailing you because I'd love to talk with your audience about a topic that I know they care about, that I happen to be an expert in. Here's three different topics I think your audience might be interested in. Do any of these resonate with you?" Ideally, you want your podcast host to just say "Yes, this one". And then that's all the preparation required and you're good to go and it works. Kathleen: Yeah, I totally agree. At the last two companies I've been in, it's been a part of my strategy to get my CEO as a guest on podcasts. It's so much easier than trying to get them to write blogs. I think there's a human connection element of, you hear the person's voice, you get to know their personality, that that draws you in so much more than written content can do. So there's that aspect of it too. Garrett's advice Kathleen: Well, any other last words of advice that you think my listeners should know about related to this topic? Garrett: I guess one of the blessings we have with our portfolio is we have a lot of first party data. So I guess some encouragement. Since March 1st I wanted to look at what happened across our portfolio. Spend is down 24%, but conversions are down only 18% because click through rates are up, CPCs are down and conversion rates are up. So here's the really cool part about cost per click advertising is that it scales with demand and doesn't create waste. In fact, at a unit economic level, your advertising is actually more efficient now than it was before. Is volume down? Yes. But also auction competitiveness is down. See, all CPC advertising and all channels is based on an auction. It's based on inventory. It's like an economic model. Supply and demand. Well, because fewer advertisers are advertising right now, you're actually able to satisfy the existing demand that does still exist for whatever product or service you sell at a lower rate and you will have better efficiency and effectiveness in your advertising right now than you did before. That's just at the ad level. It's not necessarily the close rate level or at the volume level. But just at the actual cost per click and cost per acquisition level, it's actually much more efficient right now to advertise, which is kind of cool. That's across over $1 million in spend. Kathleen: That makes sense. So don't give up your ad budget altogether. Garrett: Just to meet demand. But remember your ad budget will do that intrinsically. So as long as you're not spending a ton on display and CPM type stuff, you're going to find a ton of efficiency on CPC because fewer people are advertising, thus lowering your cost per click, and there are some people out there buying and you want to make sure you're discoverable to those people. So it's a kind of a cool way to still win right now. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Absolutely. All right, well switching gears, I have two questions I always ask all of my guests and I'd love to hear what you have to say about these. The first is, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it right now with inbound who my listeners could go check out as an example? Garrett: I mean, HubSpot's a monster at this. They still are. I know. And everybody knows that. Kathleen: I'm going to make you tell me someone besides HubSpot though. Garrett: I know, I know, I know. The thing is, it's a lot harder now to move somebody out of a top 10 ranking. And so you see a lot of people pivoting away from that old school, gated content theory of inbound. And so that's why off the top of my head, I can't think of someone who's like doing that part of it exceptionally well because the game's kinda changed.  Kathleen: Who do you think is killing it with marketing right now in general? Garrett: I always like what is Zoom is doing? Because I liked what they did with like offline advertising and I think that's so cool. I think they're really creative in the sense of thinking about how to position themselves. I love the organizations that are investing heavily in podcast ads. For myself, that's one of my highest performing channels is niche-based podcast ads. I advertise on almost all the SEO or PPC podcasts that I can find because it works exceptionally well at a low CPM. I like the D2C stuff. I think the D2C people are kicking B2B butt. Like Baboon to the Moon. I love their branding. I think if B2B had a little bit more boldness like this... Kathleen: Yeah. What did they, I've never heard of them. I'll have to check them out. Garrett: So yeah, if you want to see somebody who I think is brilliant and actually has a brand opinion and stance and is hyper creative and out there -- Baboon to the Moon. Drift gets way too much credit for it because I don't actually think they're that good at it from a branding standpoint. They just have a free product so it's a lot easier to act like you're doing really good at it. They like try to take the human side of positioning. I think Baboon is doing something really cool because they're taking a hyper creative approach and it's like they're on acid. It's like a goldfish on a human's body using their product, but it's brilliant because they are so consistent with it in their messaging, copy, and creative that it actually creates a brand theme that I don't recognize in B2B. I think B2B organizations need to do a better job creating a brand theme. Like for us at Directive, we're trying to do a lot of people in our branding, but instead of just doing people in our branding, we're also like labeling them with their titles and their names so that it's so people know it's not a stock photo. So we're trying to bring it to life. We can obviously do it a lot better. We're not nearly as creative as that, but I think if B2B looks at the direct to consumer brands that are doing so well right now, at the end of the day it's very similar if you have a self onboarding SaaS company to a D2C product. It's very still transactional. And so if you can take your self onboarding, your trial-based SaaS company, and do that, and take that DDC stuff, and build that brand guide and just be really bold and crazy and ambitious with it, I think it'll pay off. Kathleen: Yeah, that's, and you need to have leaders within the company that are willing to take a risk and be different. There's a lot of sameness in general in marketing and I think when everybody else is going right and you go left, there's a lot of opportunity there. Garrett: Oh, a trillion percent. It's hard to get that buy in. I mean, I don't know anyone in my portfolio is actually doing it. That's why I'm in my head trying to think. It just starts at the top. You just need a CEO and a board that supports a bold new direction, not just verbally, but actually, and really actually sees it all the way through, especially when they get that first negative feedback or whatever from someone who doesn't like it. Kathleen: Yeah. There are going to be people who don't like it, that's for sure. Garrett: B2B is terrified of making anyone feel anything. That's truth, right? They're terrified of if someone doesn't like something. And the point is, the worst marketing is marketing for everybody. And so if you can be bold enough to have people hate you or like you, that's when you actually have marketing. Kathleen: I totally agree with you. All right. Second question. The biggest pain point I hear from marketers is that trying to stay on top of the changing landscape of digital marketing is like drinking from a fire hose. And so I'm curious how you personally stay up to date and educate yourself on all of that. Garrett: I think it's actually less important to stay up to date with things than people think, and here's why. Most marketers don't have a fundamental belief and a hypothesis of how they approach generating revenue for an organization. What's allowed myself and my organization to be successful is we have a fundamental belief that you need to make a brand discoverable at the bottom of the funnel regardless of channel. Now, the beauty of that is that it doesn't matter if digital marketing changes. See in 1997 when Google first came out, what was the whole point? People came to people and said, "Hey, I want to show up on this new search engine. How do I do it?" And the answer was, "Well, you need a website." See, the new answer is, "Well, you need reviews for your brand and you need to be positioned." As long as you don't get married to Capterra and G2, but get married to the idea of showing up when someone has purchase intent for what you sell, everything can change without changing anything because your fundamental belief is that you need to be discoverable when there's purchase intent. And so my encouragement to people is ground yourself in a fundamental belief of what you actually believe. It's such a critical part of marketing. If you want to make a ton of money in marketing, you need to actually have opinions. And you actually have to have beliefs and a hypothesis. You have to also be willing to adjust those, but you need to have them. And so I think if people have a real belief system and fundamental approach and then say we want to be essentially discoverable when there's purchase intent, that allows you to just naturally adjust whatever happens in the market because all you're doing is maintaining your belief. And that's, I think, what's so important for marketers, is to get away from this idea of, "Oh, what could I try? What new trick or hack can I try in a channel?" to say, "How can I essentially take my belief of discoverability and apply it to all my chanels?" When you do that, it allows you to stay really even keeled and focus on your customers. Kathleen: Yeah, and I would add to that, the best marketers I know in many cases are not actually marketers. You're a great example. You studied economics. The best marketers I know tend to be the most avid students of human behavior. People who understand people make great marketers because they're focused on the things that are timeless. It really doesn't matter what Google does with an algorithm because, honestly, Google is just trying to solve for people, right? So if you're focused on people and how they behave and how they buy, none of the bells and whistles matter. Garrett: Take that same person and then they learn financial modeling. Now you have the best CMOs in the world. People who have a really authentic, true belief of understanding of people and how they buy, and then they also understand financials? You put those two people together -- those are the CMOs of the Fortune 500. How to connect with Garrett Kathleen: Amen. I could go on and on about that. If somebody is listening and wants to learn more about some of this or has a question and wants to get in touch with y ou, what is the best way for them to connect with you online? Garrett: I'm active on Twitter. I'm @gmehrguth. So first initial, last name. I'm active on LinkedIn. Shoot me an email, it's just initial last name at Directive consulting. I'd love the chat and help anyone who has questions around demand gen. I'm pretty active on there trying to share all of our data and different tactics and things that we're doing. Almost daily I shared a new tactic or approach and a thread for essentially how SaaS markers can generate revenue. So if you're interested in that, feel free to follow and engage. Kathleen: Great. And I'll put all those links to Garett's social profiles and his email in the show notes. So head there to check that out if you want to connect with him. You know what to do next... Kathleen: If you're listening and you liked what you heard or you learn something new, I would greatly appreciate it if you would head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast a five star review. We talked a lot about reviews in this interview and we know how important they are, and they are equally as important for podcasts as they are for products. So take a minute and do that. That would mean a lot. And if you know somebody who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next interview. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Garrett. Garrett: Well, thank you Kathleen. Glad to be here.

Good morning! Today we talk about ways we can stay positive despite all of the negative many people are being unindated with during this time of quarantine and isolation. I cover 4 of the most effective (and research-based) tips on re-balancing into having a more positive mindset. Now I'm not one to fluff and pretend like things are all good, we need to hold space for the bad too. But often, people get into an overly negative and pessimistic mindset during times like these, and my hope is for us to find more balance and get back into a "more accurate" and true mindset than being overly stuck in the negative. Hope y'all have an AMAZING Friday. Join me on coffee with a therapist on Facebook live Mon-Fri at 8:15 am CT Mon, Tues, Friday and 9:15 am CT Wednesdays and Thursdays. Enjoy having coffee with me? SUBSCRIBE to upgrade your relationship with yourself and others. Want me to cover a specific topic or question?1. DM or comment on an instagram post at www.instagram.com/jennyannhelms2. DM me on Facebook or Tik Tok @jennyannhelmsOR3. Watch live and leave a Q in the comments.You can also learn more about counseling and therapy through my biz page: https://www.somawichita.comGrateful to connect and have coffee with y'all,Jenny Xo

Longtime podcaster, full-cast audio pioneer and independent filmmaker, and author of 30 books, J. Daniel Sawyer hosts the daily writers podcast The Every Day Novelist dedicated to creativity, process, writerly discipline, and cultivating a fertile mental life.TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLESHOW LINKS:Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: youtube.com/c/KevinTumlinsonWordslinger Podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/c/wordslingerpodcastAuthor.Email: author.emailIndie Author Blueprint: indieauthorblueprint.comGUEST LINKS:Website:: http://www.jdsawyer.netAmazon Author Page:: https://www.amazon.com/J-Daniel-Sawyer/e/B003L9JM92Twitter:: @dsawyerFacebook:: https://www.facebook.com/jdaniel.sawyerHow can people join your mailing list?: http://jdsawyer.net/about/mailing-list-signup/SPONSORS:DRAFT2DIGITAL: Convert, publish, and distribute your book worldwide, with support the whole way. https://draft2digital.com/wordslingerACORNS: Start an Acorns account today and get FREE MONEY! kevintumlinson.com/acornsAUDIBLE.COM: Get a FREE 30-day trial of Audible and listen to any audiobook in their vast library, when you go to http://audibletrial.com/wordslingerTRANSCRIPT:SUMMARY KEYWORDSbook, people, podcast, nanowrimo, pandemic, years, worldview, everyday, talking, novelist, life, interesting, grew, read, thought, recorded, held, listen, writing, questionsSPEAKERSKevin Tumlinson, J Daniel SawyerKevin Tumlinson 00:01Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in for sticking through the intro. I'm not even sure what I said in the intro, but I promise I will, I can guarantee at least I was interested in it. So thanks for tuning in and playing along. So today we're talking to Jay Daniel Sawyer. Now I'm going to read his bio here because it's it's got some great details for you but longtime podcaster full cast, audio pioneer, and independent filmmaker and author of 30 books. Jay saw your hosts the daily writers podcast, the everyday novelist, dedicated credit to creativity, process, and writerly discipline, and cultivating a fertile mental life. That's the part I wanted to get to in your bio. I like the idea of a fertile mental life. How's that? How's that shake out? And welcome to the show.J Daniel Sawyer 00:52Hi, Doug diggin Kevin. Yeah, you were on everyday novelist. What about it? But two years ago, I thinkKevin Tumlinson 00:58Yeah, a little bit. Doesn't seem like that long.J Daniel Sawyer 01:01I guys been crazy packed two years and like, every sense. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 01:06yeah. I feel like I've done a billion podcasts and webinars and live stream since then. And that's just this week. Oh, no. Yes. And I, you know, and I told you this before we started and I'm, I'm going to apologize to the rest of the world. Because if I sounded all frazzled, or off my game, it's because we've had so there's that on top of a pandemic, and I don't know when you're listening to this, it's probably a little bit in the future for sure. Maybe things turned out all right. And if so, thank you world for playing along. But uh, you know, things have been a little crazy. In terms of stuff we're doing with DDD, we got these spotlights, we're doing like every day, and then my buddy here pops in and I for some reason, I thought it was one of my author consults. So So I'm off base. I'm off kilter man. We're gonna get back on trackJ Daniel Sawyer 02:04so I think we'll do fine.Kevin Tumlinson 02:06How is everything in the James J Daniel Sawyer world man Tell me a little bit about what you're doing right now.J Daniel Sawyer 02:12Oh well right now I'm stuck up in the backwoods I moved up to the backwoods of New England for a week in order to help my parents relocate a year ago It turned out that their their retirement house needed some renovations. So Oh, got stuck here. And just as we were getting ready to leave the quarantine comes down. So I might be stuck here another year. So there's a lot of interesting refactoring going on.Kevin Tumlinson 02:36But that seems to be the way that works out. I mean, we we were we moved out of our apartment and moved into our in laws place for a few days, quote, unquote, and then 14 hit and we're like, well, they're gonna hunker down anyway. Go ahead.J Daniel Sawyer 02:54Yeah. But yeah, it's it's good. It's, you know, we're on we've got 50 acres to play with. So there's a Lots of good time for outside notice and using the opportunity to resurrect my fiction podcast and get some work ahead done on the homestead we're building on the other side of the country. Right? So it's, it's gonna work outKevin Tumlinson 03:15what kind of work ahead can you do if it's on the other side of the country?J Daniel Sawyer 03:18There's a lot of design stuff. Yeah design, designing and costing sourcing stuff for the first buildings figuring out order of operations for at what stage we do the well when we do the catchment, what's the priority of how much electrical build out because where we are, it's a quarter mile beyond the last electrical pole. So it's 20 odd thousand just to bring power in. It's actually a lot cheaper. Even though we're in an iffy climate zone. It's actually a lot cheaper to go solar. So, right. Yes, that's a whole new set of things I've been learning about andKevin Tumlinson 03:53Oh, man. Yeah, you're talking to the right guy. Cool. This is I have to so you know, You know that we're getting into an RV full time again? Yeah. So the the two biggest problems, the three big problems. One, the two are bigger than the third. But internet is the biggest challenge. You know, power isn't such a big challenge unless it's going to be hot. And then we have Eric. Right. So, yeah, so solar power and generators and alternative energy are all in my mind. I'm thinking about installing something on the wheels of the camper that as we rolling in generates power.J Daniel Sawyer 04:36I've been studying doing that kind of stuff. It should be pretty, pretty simple.Kevin Tumlinson 04:40Yeah, man. Yeah. by simple, you know, that's a relative term.J Daniel Sawyer 04:44Well, it's a relative term. But the question is, would it be more efficient than just putting a bigger alternator in the truck? Yeah. And then, and then routing it to the chargeback.Kevin Tumlinson 04:55That's something else I I've considered. Well, yeah, whatever. This has been alternate energy talk everyone.J Daniel Sawyer 05:03So, well, you know, we were talking about a fertile mental life. Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the one of the things about creativity is it's nonlinear, you can't reason your way into what you have to do is you have to create a broad, a broad base of knowledge and experience and interests to pull from. And so, you know, one of the ways that I keep myself Spry is by picking interesting stuff that's not related to anything else I'm doing and finding a way to get interested in it because I always get story ideas out of it.Kevin Tumlinson 05:35Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. And that and so that's what you mean by by fertile mental life?J Daniel Sawyer 05:42Well, partly, I've just finished a book called The autodidact Bible, which should be coming out. I think we've set the publication date for early July. Yeah. Which is a basically a comprehensive toolkit for teaching yourself how to self educate, eat, whether you're self educated. With philosophy or with carpentry, and everything in between,Kevin Tumlinson 06:04man, I gotta tell you, though, hmm, you should call it a fertile mental life. The other didactics Bible. Thank you.J Daniel Sawyer 06:11I've been looking for a good title for it because the working title is a bit wonky. Yeah, so I'll write that down.Kevin Tumlinson 06:20I think that's gonna work. I would buy that book. All right, I wouldn't buy the first one.J Daniel Sawyer 06:25right because it sounds really technical. ItKevin Tumlinson 06:27sounds like it's gonna Yeah, like, I'm gonna have to read this with like one of those clear rulers. Oh,06:35I lost I lost your lightingKevin Tumlinson 06:36just went away. Yeah, well, good thing nobody everyone listening is doesn't know that.J Daniel Sawyer 06:41Yeah, speaking of off grid power,Kevin Tumlinson 06:44no joke. Now, I'm not really sure why that happened. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let that charge up while I'm on with you. Okay,J Daniel Sawyer 06:52both backlit, so it's sort of fair. Exactly.Kevin Tumlinson 06:57Things things like this are always happening to me lately. I don't What's going on? Um, so yeah, we'll get off that see this one talking about some I get off track justJ Daniel Sawyer 07:09because I'll just chase whatever and that's okay. you stumble ontoKevin Tumlinson 07:12you know, I studied improv and you know, you roll with whatever is gonna come at you. Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 07:17yes, yeah, yes and or no but but never Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 07:20So, uh, I, let's talk a little bit about your well wouldn't talk about your book. Do you want to talk a little about your book? I was gonna get off on your podcastsJ Daniel Sawyer 07:32there. Let's get off on the podcast. They're related. They'reKevin Tumlinson 07:35related, okay, who partly out of the other. So tell me. How did the show get started? Like what made you decide to do itJ Daniel Sawyer 07:41back in? I think it was 2006 Yeah, 2005 or 2006. I went to a write in for NaNoWriMo at Central Park in Berkeley. And Chris, whatever his name is the guy that started NaNoWriMo was there and so I got to talk to you too. Like, why'd you know why did he do this? I'd never done it before. It always seemed kind of silly to me. And he said, Well, I wanted to be a writer and I couldn't motivate myself. So I decided to pick the most difficult month in the year and intentionally write a book there to prove to myself I could do it. Yeah, I thought that was kind of a cool idea. So I wanted to trying to do NaNoWriMo that year and I completely failed. But the the lit the minor features of the conversation like going in the direction of greatest difficulty in order to build up your writing chops, really sunk in made a big difference to me as a writer to my productivity and to my general approach to all things writerly. So, I had in mind always want especially once I started podcasting, I always thought it would be fun to do sort of a walkthrough of NaNoWriMo for the newbie who'd never written a book before. Okay, and about 2016 I had the free time. So I sat and did it. And I got to the end of this 30 day walkthrough, which has since evolved into my book becoming an everyday novelist. And I started getting emails from people saying, Please don't end it here. We've become dependent on it. And so I, I went on pod and I read a couple of these. And I said, Okay, so look, here's the problem. It took me, God, you know, God knows how many untold hours to work out the program for this 30 day walkthrough to put things in the right place to write the copy that whole bit. So if you want me to keep this going, you've got to make it easy for me send me questions or something. Yeah. And I thought that was gonna be the end of it. But they sent questions. And they kept sending questions, and they kept sending questions, and it's now four plus years on and we're just creeping up on 1000 episodes now, and they're still sending questions. Occasionally, a question will spin off and I'll do a special series or or I'll have a guest on every once in a while. Then about about two and a half years ago, I wrote a I cracked the formula for hemlines juvenile books. And so I wrote a Heinlein juvenile and did a walkthrough of how to write a headline juvenile interesting and you know, some other stuff like that. But as the years have gone on, the questions have gotten more and more interesting. We get into history in psychology and philosophy in general auto didacticism and mental health management and physical health management. And the reading list that I refer people to keeps growing and growing and growing.Kevin Tumlinson 10:41Yeah, was what puts you though, on that specific course like you are? Well, I guess more the more important question is like how are you answering those questions like where are the answers come from?J Daniel Sawyer 10:55Well, I read the questions when they come in and then about one second Good enough to do a block I record 15 to 30 episodes in a day. Yeah. And do it all off the top of my head. Okay, I'm, I'm Constance I grew up in I literally grew up in academia, both grandfathers are cattle ranchers and then my father is a theology professor. So I grew up idolizing my blue collar grandparents and hanging out in the college where my father taught. So I was like, auditing classes when I was six, seven years old. Just Yeah, I thought it was cool. Not realizing I was picking up useful stuff. Right. And I've just always loved learning and hated school. So I've become the I quit. I dropped out of school at 15. I started working full time and going to college on the sly. And just read, read, read, experiment, learn, do a bunch of different stuff. I've, I've run a courier company. I've run a couple of publishing companies. I've been in the tech world. I've run a music company. or not, that was music services company like MC live sound mixing and doing videos, that sort of thing. And over the years, I've built up this toolkit for how to navigate any situation and come out of it. Come out of it, learning a lot about it. That's crazy and how to cross apply those things to other areas so that you can bootstrap on multiple fronts at once. Yeah. So when someone comes in and asks a question, and I'm really I'm always really careful to separate my opinion from the state of the art in a given field and what the state of my knowledge is, and then, if it's something that's, you know, socially controversial, or that's fraught in the field, I refer to sources that contra counterbalance each other and when it's when it's something more historical, I just didn't refer to a couple of good books that are they give more depth on this. subject that I'm able to give. We've done deep dives on the history and background of the writing of certain influential books, you know, that kind of stuff.Kevin Tumlinson 13:09Yeah. And you're cataloging all this somewhere so that people can can access Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 13:14yeah, there's a there's a on the website at everyday novelist calm there's a reading list of basically every book we've ever recommended on the cast. Do you album,Kevin Tumlinson 13:25are you monetizing that somehow? Are you you know, people got paid?J Daniel Sawyer 13:30Yes. No, no, well, it's, it's free. Listen, I've got Patreon subscribe star and the gumroad subscription feed all currently doesn't bring in very much but yes, for me, it's kind of a pay it forward thing I need to figure out how to monetize it a little better, because that's taken ungodly amount of time.Kevin Tumlinson 13:46That's always a challenge too. Because, you know, you like me. I mean, I I've lost track of how much I've put out there. that's meant to help the community but you know, at some point you do have to make a living. Luckily, my books make money. Living. So that's great. But he put in all this time and energy, you feel like there should be some sort of monetary reward.J Daniel Sawyer 14:09Well, people who listen to this, if you come over and listen to the cast kick $1 in here and there or buy the books through the Yeah, the site that really helps out a lot. One of the lovely things and you'll know, that's one of the lovely things about being sort of off the beaten track, whether you're in an RV or going or we were in an RV for a couple years or going off to the middle of the woods, is you have the freedom to live on quite a lot less than everybody else does. Right? So it doesn't take a whole lot to meet your monthly bills. So you know, we don't make a lot it really does help with the budget, but genuinely, every dollar helps us both nice and a little bit of a downer.Kevin Tumlinson 14:49Yeah, well, but I guess if you really think about it, that's just gonna be true no matter what I mean, you. Yeah, I mean for most people, for like, we'll say 90% of people. That's probably going to be the truth.J Daniel Sawyer 15:01It's got interesting. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting watching what kind of long term effects this whole. This whole endemic pandemic adventure has on people's determination to work from home and other things over the long term that could seriously change the shape of the way things work.Kevin Tumlinson 15:18I predict that I honestly think we're, we've just we just witnessed, like a leap forward in the evolution of a civilization. As you know, everything we understood has come to an end. And we're now going to reinvent ourselves.J Daniel Sawyer 15:35That's a lot more true than you might realize. Because it's not just the social changes that this is forcing. But there is another set of social changes that was waiting in the wings for coming to three years from now when the boomers hit mass retirement that this has accelerated. Yeah. And that is that because of the global demography, the demand driven economic expansion that started With the Black Death just ended, right just ended. Right? That's 500 years of political, social, and economic and ethical systems all premised on the notion that things would continue to grow at a moderate rate forever. They don't work anymore. Right? I'm planning on editing an anthology later this year dealing with potential new ways to do things where growth is not an embedded obligation of the system. Figure science fiction needs to get back to hardcore speculation. SoKevin Tumlinson 16:32I think we also just witnessed the opening of a whole new door when it comes to intellectual property and the way culture reacts with it.J Daniel Sawyer 16:42Yeah. Very interesting.Kevin Tumlinson 16:44Yeah. I'm real curious to see what happens. Because you know, you think about everything we've seen of late like all the little sessions where people do like, you know, oh, sorry about that. No problem. You got to clean anything up. You Good.J Daniel Sawyer 17:00No, no, I just wasn't my reflector wasn't backed by a strong enough, strong enough Wait,Kevin Tumlinson 17:05all right. You know those all those videos and everything that have popped up like nurses and doctors singing or high school kids singing something and performing something, you know, all that stuff is out there, it's getting a lot of attention. And some of it is easily even sort of inadvertently monetized. And but nobody is having to secure the rights to that stuff right now. SoJ Daniel Sawyer 17:30I'm curious to see what happened has to be some there's gonna have to be a new new compulsory licensing scheme, like happened in the 20th is when radio came in?Kevin Tumlinson 17:39Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know that there's a whole thing going on with this has been in discussion for years really, because this is why the Creative Commons first kind of came on the scene, but, you know, can you really truly own an idea and is it beneficial to society for you to own the idea Yeah, and we need to make a living as content creators. But do we, you know, how far does that extend in terms of ownership? So, you know, I'm, I kind of am on in that boat of, you know, ideas want to be free, like the guy who created Yep. Was it Oracle? No, it was a Linux, creator of Linux. Yes. But at the same time I make my living from my ideas. So.J Daniel Sawyer 18:30Oh, no, it was, it was it was it was a bill, what's his name from Sun Microsystems said that.Kevin Tumlinson 18:34Okay. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. No, no, probably. Yeah. No, IJ Daniel Sawyer 18:39yeah. No, I'm the same way. I've quite a lot of my stuff is creative commons license. And I you know, I've interviewed Cory Doctorow years ago and yeah, and, and the greatest The greatest enemy of any new artist is obscurity and not piracy, all that sort of stuff. Yep. totally on board with that. And on the other hand, the yeah The rationale for copyright law is that the for the civilization to benefit from the culture, people have to be incentivized to make it. And when everything was expensive to publish, that was very easy to that was a very easy line to draw, but it's not anymore and we've delayed rethinking that seriously. years and nobody has put Yeah, I think you're right, that dam just broke.Kevin Tumlinson 19:27Yeah, I absolutely think it has. And, you know, of course, one of the things that's that's been happening since since the pandemic started almost hesitate to talk about the pandemic at all honestly, because by the time this episode airs we should hopefully be out ofJ Daniel Sawyer 19:45don't bet on it. I'm expecting that I'm expecting that there'll be a sawtooth quarantine forKevin Tumlinson 19:50we'll see we'll see if you're right if this good when this goes live, we'll see if that things change. I don't know what but whateverJ Daniel Sawyer 19:57I'll on record. So if my prediction everyone laughKevin Tumlinson 20:00at me gonna be a transcript and everything, man. Absolutely. So I think, you know, right now I know from, from my experience with drafter digital and in my own personal experience that ebooks, ebook sales have been just going through the roof. You know? And I mean, we've we've seen, like a 45% increase across retailers, but like 175% increase with libraries. So people are out there. IJ Daniel Sawyer 20:27got my book library sales have also gone way up. Yeah. Yeah. It's, so I seem to have the greatest penetration in libraries with my audiobooks. SoKevin Tumlinson 20:37that's interesting, though. That's interesting. Because most of the time when I think about audio books, I'm thinking like people are getting them to listen to while they drive into work or something. I would think so too, butJ Daniel Sawyer 20:49that maybe, you know, while there would be out everybody taking walks or Yeah, or cleaning the house, and if you're living in the house, you have to clean a lot more often.Kevin Tumlinson 20:59So how are you Balancing the podcasting and everything else you're doing with the writing, like how you keep on track.J Daniel Sawyer 21:08I tend to batch a lot, current. So like right now, it is called the everyday novelist because I usually write everyday but the last few months, because things have been so weird, it's been a little bit different. So I've currently got four books that I'm redlining. And the podcast is actually as much time as it takes sexual easy because I can batch it. So I'll just say okay, at the end of the recorded buffer is coming up, like when we're recording this, I've got another recording session tonight, because my buffer just ran out. I say at the end of the recorded buffers coming up, take one night to record them all. Then take a day to edit them all and post them and then that's that and but I do a lot of stuff with batch work. So I let you know enough of a pile pile up that I can do it as a project because With the exception of getting in a groove and writing every day, almost everything else I either get bored of or get. It starts to grind on me if it's a chronic thing, but if I have projects I can get through, then that Jazz's me up. SoKevin Tumlinson 22:16yeah, so that's it, you know, are you how much production goes into each of your podcast episodes?J Daniel Sawyer 22:25For the everyday novelist it's about a it's about a two and a half to one timewise. As you can tell, as we're talking here, I have a bit of a scatter shot. I tend to circle a topic before before angling in on it and sometimes there's a lot of stumbling associated with that right right. I like what I'm doing the everyday novelist because it's all improv I like to to narrow the stumbling down as much as possible. So right, it takes about twice as long to cut every episode as the final Listening length winds up being. Okay. So overall, I met including the recording time at about two or three to one production ratio.Kevin Tumlinson 23:10Alright, well alright, that's that makes sense. That's about what it what it takes for me so that I feel a little more comfortable. I am actually because I've been doing some other stuff recently live I'm actually considering shifting the model of this show to being a live format, essentially producing it on the fly. Yeah, it can be fun. It's a little tougher to get certain guests on. But you get the benefit of you know, the production is is done that day.J Daniel Sawyer 23:42Yeah, absolutely dead set out. And I really, I dig doing interview shows that way. When I'm, when I'm doing monologues. I like to massage the timing a lot because that that really helps with the delivery. Yeah, when you've got a conversation going on. The timing emerges from the interaction so you can avoid the editing if you want to.Kevin Tumlinson 24:03Yeah, that's exactly yeah, I like that part where everything is done for me automatically.J Daniel Sawyer 24:10Oh yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 24:12I started my I started this thing called the Kevin show. I don't know if you've seen any of those and they're ridiculous I haven't seen that yet. They're not right.J Daniel Sawyer 24:20They were your YouTube channel. Yeah, yeah. So I started I've got a tab open, but I haven't watched any of them yet.Kevin Tumlinson 24:26Yeah, well, I'm just gonna warn you in advance don't go there hoping for writing wisdom.J Daniel Sawyer 24:34But I figured it's us so it's probably gonna be like RV weird DIY stuff. And strange. There's gonna be all kinds of stuff.Kevin Tumlinson 24:41Yeah. So it started literally that show. So yeah, okay, I'm gonna bring us back around to what we're discussing here. But that show started as me and Nick factor. I said to Nick, you know, when I was so stressed out from the moving from the pandemic from, you know, just being inundated with things So you know, what I would love to do is just do something stupid fun, no agenda, no plan and call it I could call it the Kevin show, because that's ridiculous. And just put it out there live and have fun for 30 minutes, distract people. And he, he said I'd go on that. And so within an hour, I had designed that entire show, from the graphics to music to a video intro to booking my first guest. And the next day it went live. And I've done one every week since so that's dad said, to bring it back to the important thing of this interview, which is you that shows I think that process of the fertile mind, you know, the the fertile mental life that you are, that you are focused on, or would you would you disagree with that? kind of put you on the spot?J Daniel Sawyer 25:56No, no, I think that's a great example to the brain. branching out. It's Oh, I'm trying to think of something pithy to come back to that. But yeah, I think you've got it exactly.Kevin Tumlinson 26:07That's something.J Daniel Sawyer 26:09Life is chaotic, interesting and complicated. And it doesn't easily fit into any of the categories that anybody likes to impose on it. Yeah. And I can't remember who I ran into from it might have been, it might have been something out of one of two labs books. But I came across this idea of it's better to have strong opinions loosely held. Yeah, then then weak, then weak opinions strongly held. Most people have weak opinions strongly held. They have ideas that they like, they can't really support them in in the face of a monumental challenge, but they'll hold on to them for dear life because they're identified with them.Kevin Tumlinson 26:50Exactly. Sort of. Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 26:52I like that core way. I prefer to be able to articulate what I'm thinking in a very useful strong way, right and be comfortable enough with my own level of ignorance that I can change my opinion when something challenges it and it doesn't, in my opinion doesn't stand up in the teeth of whatever I'm engaging with. As a result of course, I've had multiple interesting worldview shifts over my life. I've been all over the political spectrum. I've had three different religions. And but, but it's but the reason is that, that I'm more interested in figuring out what's actually going on and engaging with life in a in a deep way. And if that's my priority, then what's expendable has to be my determination to cling on to the things that might otherwise make me feel secure.Kevin Tumlinson 27:54Yeah, okay. That is I Exactly. I love the way you have Put that if that is an actual quote, I need to go find it about strong or strong opinions. Loosely held. Yeah, yeah, that's I feel like that's me. And I think I think the danger is people hear strong opinions and then decide. That's where you stand. And so the idea that you might change your mind from a strong opinion, and pivot to a new worldview is is completely foreign to some folks. But I think that's that's the right way to be personally, I like that.J Daniel Sawyer 28:30Yeah. And I do and I mean, one of the things you're, you're like me, you're, you're a little bit north of 30, at least. And one of the things by the time you hit your mid 30s, you realize that whether you want it to or not your worldviews gonna change. Yeah. Because the cumulative experience you build up, gradually goes out of sync with your ideology, whatever ideology that is, because ideologies are models that we build to deal with the world. They're not the world itself and any model is going to have holes in it. Yeah, and the. So when you're in your 20s, it's really easy to righteously hold on to everything because you are fighting for the good. But the older you get, the more that instead of that makes you look, instead of making you impassioned, and a person of great conviction, makes you look kind of stupid. Yeah, because you're not you look vapid and hollow? Well, yeah, because what's happening is while your practical worldview is changing, and you can always tell by the evidence of someone's behavior, rather than what they say, what you believe is reflected in what you do not in what you say. And as you get older, if you're holding on to those, to those early convictions that tightly, the gap between your behavior and your speech will grow. And if you look in the mirror, and all of us eventually do or at least most of us eventually do. You notice that disconnect and that's when you have the existential crisis, who,Kevin Tumlinson 30:02yeah, if you've ever read Carol Dwight's book about my called mindset, it talks about exactly you should tell you, that will probably end up on your list of recommended books, because it talks about that very idea. And it's the closed mindset versus the open mindset, you know, and we tend to look for things that become part of our identity when, especially when we're young, especially when we're vulnerable. Like we're, you know, the bullied high school kid, you know, can say, Well, people pick on me, but at least I'm really good at math. And so if you identify with that, and then you fail a math test,30:40you're crushed, suddenly, yep.Kevin Tumlinson 30:42Your whole identity was just taken for you were murdered, you know, in your, in your own mind. And so you start to think if I don't have that, what am I? Who am I? So anyway, um, so, unfortunately, we are we're closing in on our timeJ Daniel Sawyer 30:58on the end,Kevin Tumlinson 30:59which was is really unfortunate man I always I dig talking to you we know when am I coming back on your show man? I knowJ Daniel Sawyer 31:13whenever it's good for you let me know I would love to have you back on especially now you're working with Jeff to digital. I'd like to Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 31:19cuz i don't think i was last time wasJ Daniel Sawyer 31:21last time you were last time you wereKevin Tumlinson 31:25completely independent.J Daniel Sawyer 31:26You You were just leaving your first stint at draft to digital I think it wasKevin Tumlinson 31:31no it would have been because I was still Oh yeah, so I was working for DDD, but IJ Daniel Sawyer 31:36stayed with a different position. Oh yeah, I was.Kevin Tumlinson 31:39I was getting on the road though. That's the only guy that would have been. So okay, yeah, so I still fresh it D to D Really? Because that happened like right after. Okay, there we go. That's the you haveJ Daniel Sawyer 31:50this. this. Yeah, the stuff you guys are doing over there, especially now that marks on the team and whatnot has gotten a lot more interesting. I keep signing up for the meetings and then not making them because Everything else in the world that's there recorded I really want.Kevin Tumlinson 32:04I'm gonna have to look back through from my recorded pop into your YouTube channel. Okay, which is officially youtube.com slash c slash draft to digital everyone. And while you're there, look for Kevin Tumlinson and you can tune into the Kevin show xo into plugs but tell everybody the more important URL is where can people find you online?J Daniel Sawyer 32:30You can find me at everyday novelist calm that's for the daily podcast. You can find a whole bunch of my other stuff audio books, full cast audio fiction podcasts, my rather scattered and sometimes very dark musings on the universe on my blog, and a complete list of the books that are available for purchase at the moment as well as my autodidacts reading list at WWW dot JDC. All your.net and I just want a very, very dark take on some of the stuff we were talking about earlier about the changeover and ages. Check out my blog post. The Abyss stares back.Kevin Tumlinson 33:12Yes. Excellent. All right. Well, you heard him everybody. Make sure you check that stuff out, buy his books, go see his stuff. Listen to his podcast. There's a lot you can do to keep him going throw a buck or two his way on Patreon. Let's let's make sure we're taking care of our own here, man. So Jay Daniel Sawyer, sir, thank you so much for being a part of the word slinger podcast.J Daniel Sawyer 33:34Thanks for having me on. It is a delight.Kevin Tumlinson 33:37Everybody else right now. Right now you're probably hearing the groovy bridge music. You may dance in place it will and if you stick around, I am sure to say something profound on the other side, and if I don't make fun of me, see you next time.

PHP Internals News: Episode 50: The RFC Process London, UK Thursday, April 23rd 2020, 09:13 BST In this episode of "PHP Internals News", Henrik Gemal (LinkedIn, Website) asks me about how PHP's RFC process works, and I try to answer all of his questions. The RSS feed for this podcast is https://derickrethans.nl/feed-phpinternalsnews.xml, you can download this episode's MP3 file, and it's available on Spotify and iTunes. There is a dedicated website: https://phpinternals.news Transcript Derick Rethans 0:16 Hi, I'm Derick. And this is PHP internals news, a weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. This is Episode 50. Today I'm talking with Henrik come out after he reached out with a question. You might know that at the end of every podcast, I ask: if you have any questions, feel free to email me. And Henrik was the first person to actually do so within a year and a half's time. For the fun, I'm thinking that instead of I'm asking the questions, I'm letting Henrik ask the questions today, because he suggested that we should do a podcast about how the RFC process actually works. Henrik, would you please introduce yourself? Henrik Gemal 0:52 Yeah, my name is Henrik Gemal. I live in Denmark. The CTO of dinner booking which does reservation systems for restaurants. I've been doing a PHP development for more than 10 years. But I'm not coding so much now. Now I'm managing a big team of PHP developers. And I also been involved in the the open source development of Mozilla Firefox. Derick Rethans 1:19 So usually I prepare the questions, but in this case, Henrik has prepared the questions. So I'll hand over to him to get started with them. And I'll try to do my best to answer the questions. Henrik Gemal 1:27 I heard a lot about these RFCs. And I was interested in the process of it. So I'm just starting right off here, who can actually do an RFC? Is it anybody on the internet? Derick Rethans 1:38 Yeah, pretty much. In order to be able to do an RFC, what you would need is you need to have an idea. And then you need access to our wiki system to be able to actually start writing that, well not to write them, to publish it. The RFC process is open for everybody. In the last year and a half or so, some of the podcasts that I've done have been with people that have been contributing to PHP for a long time. But in other cases, it's people like yourself that have an idea, come up, work together with somebody to work on a patch, and then create an RFC out of that. And that's then goes through the whole process. And sometimes they get accepted, and sometimes they don't. Henrik Gemal 2:16 How technical are the RFCs? Is it like coding? Or is it more like the idea in general? Derick Rethans 2:23 The idea needs to be there, it needs to be thought out. It needs to have a good reason for why we want to add or change something in PHP. The motivation is almost as important as what the change or addition actually is about. Now, that doesn't always get us here at variable. In my opinion, but that is an important thing. Now with the idea we need to talk about what changes it has on the rest of the ecosystem, whether they are backward compatible breaks in there, how it effects extensions, or sometimes how it effects OPCache. Sometimes considerations have to be taken for that because it's, it's something quite important in the PHP ecosystem. And it is recommended that it comes with a patch, because it's often a lot easier to talk about an implementation than to talk about the idea. But that is not a necessity. There have been quite some RFCs where the idea was there. But it wasn't a patch right away yet. It is less likely that these RFCs will get accepted, because in order to get something into PHP not only needs to be there a good idea, that also needs to be there a good implementation of it. If you have been a long term contributor to PHP, then you should know how to write a patch yourself. In other cases, you'll see people that have an idea try to find somebody else to do and work on the implementation together. But all RFCs, if they get accepted. It's always pending a good implementation. Henrik Gemal 3:52 How is an RFC actually done? Is that like a template you fill out or is it like a website or how does it work? Derick Rethans 3:59 Our Wiki, I will add a link to that in the show notes, has a template of how to create an RFC. It has a set set of sections. There's always an introduction that basically lays out what it is about or why this change is being made. Then there is often a proposal of what the change actually is. And then there's a few sections that are sometimes empty or sometimes are filled in such as, at least backwards incompatible changes, for which PHP version is been targeted, what the impact is to all the parts of the PHP ecosystem. But these things are not always necessary, because they don't always make sense to do right? If you want to add a new syntax to PHP, then that almost never influences existing extensions, but it will influence OPCache, for example. And then there's also often things like open issues, things we haven't quite thought through yet. A bit of a discussion, discussion bits will get filled in after people in the PHP internals list, which I'm sure we'll get to in a moment, come up with better ideas or alternatives sometimes, and then things like future scope will also be part of the template. We don't really require a very rigid approach to this, but we do appreciate if all the sections are filled in, or at least thought about in such a way that there's either information or not information. And then at the end, there's often a proposed voting choice. Everything at the moment needs to pass by two thirds majority before it gets accepted. So yeah, those are the things in the template itself. But the template is important. And you do need to fill it in, if you want to propose an RFC. Henrik Gemal 5:33 Are all RFCs public or do you have like private RFCs? Derick Rethans 5:38 All RFCs have to be public, otherwise they can't be voted on. But some RFCs start out of just a conversation with a few developers coming up with an idea. In the last few months, some more complicated RFC start out on a GIT repository. As a pull request, they never get merged anywhere. Because on GitHub, it makes it much easier to comment on specific sections for adopting feedback. Instead of having large discussions on the PHP internals mailing list, where sometimes comments might just get lost because there's too much text in there. Even though these RFC start out, while they're still sort of public, but nobody knows about them. In the end, they will always have to be public otherwise there won't be any voting, done on it, and it won't get accepted. Henrik Gemal 6:27 Where's the RFC sent to and who's kind of in charge of the RFC? Is the one that makes the RFC or is it like a RFC commander? Derick Rethans 6:37 The person that makes the RFC is responsible for guiding it through the whole process that we have. Once they are finished, there is a requirement for you emailing the PHP internals list with a specific prefix, which I think is RFC in square brackets. And then that starts a minimum discussion periods of two weeks. That discussion period might end up longer, in cases, lots of things to talk about or discuss or lots of disagreements, but the discussion period has to be a minimum of two weeks on the PHP internals mailing list. Henrik Gemal 7:09 I was wondering a little bit about the priority RFCs because I see RFCs as like, a little bit like feature requests. So wondering who actually decides on the priority of an RFC? Derick Rethans 7:23 Nobody really decides on the priority. Multiple RFCs can go through the process at the same time, you don't really have a priority of which one is more important than others. So yeah, there's nothing really there for it. Henrik Gemal 7:35 I was just wondering if it's done like a normal project, you know, there might be many RFCs at the same time. I'm wondering how many kind of RFCs are there at the moment, are we talking 10 or are talking thousands? Derick Rethans 7:50 This depends a bit on where in PHP's release cycle we are. PHP should get released at the end of November or the start of December. In all PHP seven releases that actually has happens. Usually the period between December and March, there will be like maybe one or two a week, which is great because that makes it possible for me to pick the right one to make an episode out for the podcast. At the moment, there are 10 outstanding RFCs. That means there are so many that I don't actually have enough time to talk about all of these on the podcast. However, they are often more just before we go to feature freeze, which happens at the end of June. So there's still two months to go. But you also see that over the last two years, there's a lot more smaller RFCs than there are big RFCs. So big RFCs like union types. They tend to be early in a release cycle, where smaller RFCs, as an example here, there's currently an RFC that there is no episode about, that suggests to do a stricter type checks for arithmetic or bitwise operators. Those are tiny, tiny changes. And in the last two years, there have been more and more smaller RFC than bigger RFCs because they tend to limit the amount of contention that people can disagree with and hence, often makes it easier to then get accepted. That is a change that I've been seeing over the years. But no, there are no thousands for each PHP version, I would say on average, there's about one a week, so about 50. Henrik Gemal 9:19 I want to get a little bit into the voting part, because that sounds kind of interesting, who can actually vote? Derick Rethans 9:28 After the two week minimum discussion period is over on the PHP internals mailing list, an RFC author can decide to put up the RFC for a vote. And that also requires you then to send an email to the PHP internals mailing list prefixing your subject with the word vote in capital letters. Now at this moment, you unfortunately see that people start paying attention to the RFC. Instead of doing that during the discussion period. At a moment of vote gets called you shouldn't really change RFC unless it's for like typos or like minor clarifications to things, you can't really change syntax in it for example. People can vote our people with a PHP commit access. And that includes internals developers, documentation contributors, and people that do things in the infrastructure. Everybody that has a PHP VCS account and VCS, version control system, that used to be CVS and now then SVN, and now GIT, as well as people that have proposed RFCs. So the group that technically could vote is over 1000 big, but the amount of people that vote is very much under 50 most of the time. We don't really have any criteria beyond you have to have an account to be able to vote in PHP RFCs. Henrik Gemal 10:43 How is the voting actual done? Derick Rethans 10:47 Since about last year, each RFC needs to be accepted, with a two thirds majority. On each RFC on the wiki, once a vote gets called you as an RC alter needs to include a small code snippets that then creates a poll. Very often do we want this? Or do we not want this? So it's a yes or no question. But sometimes there are optional votes, whether we want to do it a specific way, or another specific way. Sometimes that allows you to then select between different syntaxes. I don't think that is necessarily a good idea to have. I think the RFC author should be opinionated enough about picking a specific syntax. It is probably better to have a secondary vote as we call those. Those secondary votes don't to have two thirds majority is often which one of the options wins out of these. But the main RFC won't get accepted, unless there's a two thirds majority with a poll done on the wiki. Henrik Gemal 11:46 What happens after the vote? You know if it's both if it's Yes or no? Derick Rethans 11:53 I'll start with the easy case, the no case. If it's a no then the RFC gets rejected. That also means that sometimes an RFC fails for a very specific reason. Maybe some people didn't like the syntax, or it was like a one tweak where it would behave in a wrong way or something like that. But as a rule that says that you cannot put the same subject back up for discussion for six months, unless there are substantial changes. Now, this has happened with scalar type hints, for example, and a few other big ones. If an RFC gets accepted, then pending on whether there is an implementation, the implementation will get set up as a pull request to the PHP project on GitHub. And then the discussion about the implementation starts. If the implementation doesn't get to the point where it is actually good enough, or whether it can actually not be implemented in a way that it doesn't impact performance, it still might end up failing, or might not get merged. And in some cases, it means that a feature will get added at some point but it might not be necessarily in the PHP version that it got targeted for. I don't actually have an example for that now. If the implementation is already good and already discussed it can get merged pretty much instantly. And then it will be part of the next PHP version. Henrik Gemal 13:08 How many RFCs voted on every year? And what majority voted yes or no? Derick Rethans 13:16 I don't have the stats for that. But there is a website called RFC watch, where you can see which RFCs had been gone through and which one had been accepted or not, in a nice kind of graph way. I will add a link in the show notes for that. I would guess that during a year, about 50 RFCs are voted on. And I will think that about half of them are passing. But that's a guess I don't have the stats. Henrik Gemal 13:42 Thank you very much for the answers. It brought me closer to the whole process of the PHP development. You have any other things to add? Derick Rethans 13:52 I don't think so at the moment. I think what we she'd be a bit careful about is that although we're getting closer and closer to feature freeze at the end of June. We currently have just elected the new PHP eight zero release managers, but I keep the names secret, because this podcast is recorded in the past. They are going to be responsible now for doing all the organisatorical work for PHP eight zero. And that also means that feature freeze will happen at the end of June somewhere. And I expect to see a bunch of RFCs coming up with just enough time to make it into PHP eight zero, or not. So that's going to be interesting to see what comes up there. But other than that, I think we have explained most things in the RFC process now. And I thought it was a fun thing for once somebody else asking the questions and me giving the answers. And I think in the future, I think I would like to do like a Q&A session where I have multiple people asking questions about the PHP process. I also thought this was a good experiment and thanks for you taking the time to ask me all dthese questions today. Henrik Gemal 15:00 No problem. I love your podcast. I listen to it whenever I bike to work. It's nice to get some insights into the PHP development. Derick Rethans 15:10 Yeah, and that is exactly why I started it. Thank you Henrik for taking the time this morning to ask me the questions. And I hope you enjoyed it. Henrik Gemal 15:18 Thank you very much for having me on the show. Derick Rethans 15:22 Thanks for listening to this instalment of PHP internals news, the weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. I maintain a Patreon account for supporters of this podcast, as well as the Xdebug debugging tool. You can sign up for Patreon at https://drck.me/patreon. If you have comments or suggestions, feel free to email them to derick@phpinternals.news. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week. Show Notes How to create an RFC List of RFCs php RFC Watch Credits Music: Chipper Doodle v2 — Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) — Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

There's a new way ahead. Decide for yourself if it's how you want to live. Consider what YOU can do about it. You've actually got plenty of wiggle room if you really think about it. But you've got to actually THINK about it.The Up Is Down Podcast is created by myself entirely. I do all the work alone. It takes time and energy and I love to do it despite the sinking feeling that it's ultimately a useless effort.What am I really trying to do, anyway? I began this venture as an alternative to painting and the podcast has since become its own delicious monster. At first I wanted to explore different philosophies and experiences. It took a turn with child abuse and intelligence agencies and their victims. Then I couldn't take my eye off the mind control propaganda machines which enable them. Now I'm determined to identify the players and use their own words to bare out their pathological agendas. I feel that now more than ever my talents have a necessity. I realize the limitations of hope and I'm okay with any and all outcomes of this work. Those who have reached out to me in emails and comments have given me infinite courage to keep going and I humbly and sincerely thank you all.I accept that these attempts to connect the real people to the real world might very well just be a creative waste of precious time that I might otherwise spend preparing myself and loved ones for some possible escape, any escape, from what I see clearly as a very real and very close finale to the world we once knew.Believe me, if I had any idea of a way out, you listeners would be the first to know.We need to stick together, stick to our guns, defy the authoritarian communitarian oligarchs hell bent on determining our lives for us. We must resist the vaccines, the tests, their money, their deadening jobs, their insane protocols and hollow empty promises. We CAN stop paying their taxes, using their systems and start thinking and doing for ourselves. We just have to stick together with love and hope and trust in one another and WE CAN make OUR OWN NEW WAY, even if its just one person, one family at a time. THIS IS THE TIME TO DO IT.T H A N K S FOR L I S T E N I N G(((S U P P O R T THE S H O W)))https://paypal.me/frankenbones?locale.x=en_USThis site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. It is being made available in an effort to advance the understanding of society, economics and social engineering. It is believed that this constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.S U B S C R I B ES H A R ED O W N L O A DR E P O S TC O M M E N T

Hey, it's Jamie here and this is the third podcast in a series all about how I am beta launching my new course. Now I'm walking you through the entire process step by step, and if you've missed the last couple of episodes where I went through the big overview of how I'm doing this and then started breaking it down, you're going to definitely want to go back to episode 12. [00:00:24]In season two and start there because that's the overview where I give you the big picture. And in here today I'm going to talk about the second step, which is who exactly are you going to serve and why? That's so important to know, [00:00:38] I'm going to tell you about the process that I'm using to get really specific with that and the mistake that you need to avoid. To make sure that you don't end up with nobody signing up for your beta course, right? We want to actually get people in the door. So the key thing in this is that we want to get as absolutely specific as possible with who we want to serve so that we can speak to their needs. More clearly now I see a lot of new entrepreneurs coming into the online space saying, Oh gosh, well, I could help anybody. I shouldn't narrow it down because then I might turn people away. [00:01:28] And I see this with photographers too. In the photography industry, people are like, Oh, I can photograph anything, and they don't want to get specific. But when you're trying to talk to a CEO who needs a very formal headshot. And to a new mom who wants newborn photos all in the same website page. Your messaging has to be so generic and broad in order to speak to both of them that it's not really gonna resonate with either of them nearly as well as if you were saying. [00:01:57] Speaking to one very specifically, and so the more specific you can get here, the more effective you can be. Now, this is hard for me too, because I know that this new course that I'm bringing into the world that's going to help people create this. Devoted group of advocates that are basically in a market for them for free. [00:02:18]This could really benefit anybody who sells anything online or not. But I can't just sell it to any entrepreneur because then my messaging to get the word out there is not going to be very tight. [00:02:31] In fact, even just saying it like that here isn't very tight because honestly, messaging is the hardest part, and so I've had to spend some time thinking about who is the type of person that I want to serve super specifically, just because I can help. Anybody who's an entrepreneur do this doesn't mean that I should, and it doesn't mean that it's going to be the best result if I try and keep it that broad. [00:02:57] So the more you can narrow it down and become specific, the more effective your messaging is going to be, plus the more effective your course content is going to be in helping them get results. And you need to be getting people results in your beta course so that they can give you testimonials and stories so that you can launch this again. [00:03:16] And have a, you know, a lot of momentum on your side. Get more people in it the next time you do it. So what I've done is I kind of sat down and said, who would the most fun person to be to work with and to have in this course, like who is already perfectly situated and ready to go to get results from what I want to teach right away? [00:03:37] Those people are going to be the best people for my beta course because if they're. In the right place and they're ready to get results, and I don't have to do a bunch of prep work beforehand, then it becomes easy and it becomes fun. So for me, I'm not going to be going after people who are just starting out, who don't know what they're going to sell, or maybe even are, you know, beta launching their very first product. [00:04:02] So if you're listening here and you're beta launching something and you've never sold anything online before, this is probably not going to be the best fit for you. This is going to be better for people who are already established on entrepreneurs who already have a product that sells, that they can scale. [00:04:22] So it doesn't have to be online education, but it does have to be something that they can sell in mass quantities and not a service like photography where you can only work with a handful of people yourself like you don't need. In fact, you wouldn't want 10,000 clients in a year. For photography. That would be a nightmare for them unless they want to do a big agency and scale that way. [00:04:46] I'm talking about people who sell courses, people who sell products that you know they can sell to thousands and thousands of people. Anything that can really scale where you can grow a very large group. Of raving fans who are just excited to tell everybody about what you're selling. And yes, this would work for people who do services, but I'm going to focus on the people who can scale because frankly, it's easier for me to customize my content and get them results when I know that everybody's on the same page for that. [00:05:21] Now, the other thing is that they have to be the vision. And strategy person for their business. I had a friend asked me this who said, Hey, should I send my team member through it? Would it be valuable for them? Now, they might get some value from it, but the way that I'm going to be teaching this course is going to be talking about a higher level business strategy and it's going to help people get a lot of clarity around what they're already doing. [00:05:46] Because I found that once people hit a certain level in business, specifically around six figures or. You know, maybe 200 to $300,000 their businesses are kind of messy and they've been doing a lot of it themselves, and they really need to clarify what they're doing and simplify it so that it can multiply. [00:06:04] That's kind of the three words that I live by is clarify, simplify, multiply. And so I need somebody who can make those decisions at a high level. Without having to consult a ton of people and who can see the vision and the strategy behind what I teach and set up the processes to implement that. So I'm looking for, [00:06:25] preferably people who are in the six figures, not only because they're already profitable and have something that sells, but they have a different mindset than somebody who's just coming in at the bottom level. I'm also looking for people who take action fast. This is especially important for a beta course because a big part of why I'm doing the beta course. [00:06:47] Is to get feedback from the people who are in the course itself so that I can make it better if I teach it again in the future, and so that I can get success stories from them as they implement it so that I can use those to promote the course in the future. I also am looking specifically for people who value building a community. [00:07:08] If somebody is just looking to sell a product and doesn't actually care if there's a community of people built around it, they're not going to be a good fit for this because community and connection is a big part of what I teach and what I do. Frankly, I really don't want people who are just in it to make money. [00:07:25] I want people who genuinely care about the people they work with. And about getting their clients results. That's really important for the strategy that I teach. If they aren't getting results, they're not going to be these raving advocates, these amazing fans who are willing to market for you because people don't do word of mouth advertising if they haven't gotten amazing results themselves. [00:07:45] So that's key. Like if they aren't doing that. And they don't have a product that actually gets people results. This isn't going to be a good fit for them because they're going to have to restructure everything they do. They might even need to recreate products, and that's going to put them way behind, but I do need those action takers who are ready and willing to take action on what I teach them so that they can start seeing results faster as opposed to slower. [00:08:10]I also want to make sure that the people who join this have a deeper purpose behind their business that other people can get excited about. So, for example, Stu McLaren, you've heard me talk about him a loads in season one of the podcast. He's still a dear friend of mine. I'm still in his mastermind and think he's great. [00:08:28] He attracts impact-driven entrepreneurs who want to make a difference in this world, who, yes, they want to make a ton of money so that they can leverage that money and really make the world a better place. That's a deeper purpose that a lot of people can get behind. In fact, when I heard that in his marketing videos the very first time he launched the tribe course that he sells. [00:08:49] I was sold because there are so many people online who show photos of themselves, but you know, with a personal jet behind them, or bro marketers with their flashy cars and their, you know, like fraternity dreams, let's just, unless there's call it what it is, you know, and I just, those aren't my people. I don't want people who are just in it for the money in the status and the fancy stuff. [00:09:12] Now, there's nothing wrong with having any of that stuff. But if that's their sole driver and they don't really care. If they change people's lives for the better and they don't really care about making an impact in the world or having a deeper purpose for their business, they're not my people. They're not going to be a good fit for this. [00:09:29] Because another big part of this that I teach is having this deeper purpose that other people can also rally behind. And so thinking through how I teach my course and. What kinds of people would be most likely to get results fast from it? I've been able to narrow this down to a very specific kind of person. [00:09:52] Now I'm focusing on values. I'm focusing on some of the milestones that they've hit. I'm not focusing on specific niches so much because it that doesn't really matter. Like people in different niches can definitely get results as long as they have some of these values. And they have a product or a course that they know they can scale that is already selling. [00:10:17] So those are some of those key things that have helped me narrow it down. So now my, my question to you is, if you're thinking about beta launching, or even if you're not and you're just learning from me, how can you get really, really specific with the kinds of people that you're trying to reach and attract into your business? [00:10:37] Who would be most likely to get benefit from what you're doing? Right away without you having to teach them a bunch of extra information first. Right. And in that, who would you love working with the most? Like, I love all online entrepreneurs, but it's way more fun for me to talk to somebody who's been in it for awhile, who already gets results, who understands more of the struggles of scaling than somebody who's just starting out and trying to pick the right software and figure out what their offers should be and all of those things. [00:11:11] But you know, I haven't had to worry about, and a long time, you know, it's way more fun for me to be working with somebody who is like me than somebody who is well behind me. And I think that I can serve those people better as well. So who do you love working with? The boast. Definitely take that into account. [00:11:27] And how specific can you get with defining who they are in terms of values and in terms of who's most likely to get results from you fast. And that's where I would start in terms of narrowing things down and getting specific. Now the nice thing about that is it's easier to speak to them more specifically when you do market this, and so they're gonna, they're going to know more. [00:11:49]Clearly and faster if this is a good fit for them or not. If you're listening to this and you're like, Oh man, this is totally me. I've been doing online business for awhile. You know, I've, I've had a course that I've been selling, but I just feel like I'm not getting the momentum I need. This might end up being a great fit for you, but if you're listening to this and you're like, Oh yeah, I've never really made more than $20,000 in my business, you know, I have an offer. [00:12:13] I doesn't really sell really well. Not sure if it's the right thing to sell or I don't know the platforms or. You know any of these other things, like as I went through my list, if you're like, ah, no, that's not really me, it's probably not the best fit for you. see how going through something like this and defining it will either help you feel like, Hey, I should really think about this versus, Oh, I probably don't need it. [00:12:35] people can self select whether or not this is a good fit for them. When you can clearly communicate. Who it is that you're trying to attract and why this is a good thing for them. Now, this isn't a sales podcast, like I'm not trying to sell you on this. I'm just trying to use that as an example. [00:12:52] Honestly, my messaging in this is not written in such a way that I would write it if I was trying to sell you on this. we'll talk about messaging in a few episodes from now, cause that's the hardest part of, of doing. A brand new course with a new market, because you just haven't worked with people long enough to know exactly what's going to resonate with them in a big way. [00:13:12]and messaging is something that you always will be tweaking, but the more clear you can get on who you want to serve, the easier it's going to be to create this messaging in the future. So even though you can help everybody. Don't, don't go specific. When I went from trying to serve all photographers to serving only personal brand photographers or photographers who wanted to do personal brand photography because it didn't really exist before then I lost 85% of my audience. [00:13:46]only 15% were interested in doing personal brand photography. I check those metrics really closely, but my income doubled. In just two years. It was so fast because I was very specific. My messaging was very, very tuned to exactly what they needed, and so it was more relevant and far more effective than trying to speak to just any photographer who wanted to know how to grow some kind of business online. [00:14:13] So there is riches in the niches as they say it is true. And the more specific you can get, the more. Effective. Your messaging will be, your course will be, you'll get better results and you get better people in the course. So get as specific as you can. Don't stay generic. You can always open it up later, but start with a very clearly defined core. [00:14:36] And honestly, I could probably even get more specific with this. This is all still a work in progress, but this is kind of where I'm landing right now. And, don't, don't be tempted to try and keep it open to just whomever, because the more specific it is, the more the right people will hear about it and resonate with it and definitely want to be part of it. [00:14:56] And that's what we're going for is those uncommon commonalities. Those really tight, resonances where they're like, Oh, that's exactly who I am. I definitely want this. So that's what you need to do. It's hard. I get it. It's super hard. It feels super counterintuitive. But the better you can do that, the better it'll be for everyone. [00:15:13] All right, so in the next episode, I'm going to talk about step three, which is about the super painful problem that they have right now that's going to get them to pull out their credit card, because if you're not clear on that. Even if you have the right people around, it's going to be hard to get them to buy. [00:15:29] So I'll see you there. If you haven't subscribed yet, definitely do that so you don't miss an episode. And if you want to get the entire 12 step checklist from episode 10 of season two, which this was step two in the checklist where I went into depths on it, go to personal brand journey.com. Fill in your email address and I will send it over to you today. [00:15:47] If you know anyone else who needs to hear this podcast, please send it to them. I would appreciate that. And with that, I'll see you in the next episode.

Download the Beta Launch Method Checklist here Transcript: [00:00:00] I'm about to beta launch a new course to a brand new market with zero audience and absolutely no content created for it yet. Most people spend weeks or months preparing to launch something. I prefer to do it in days. In today's episode, I'm going to walk you through the step-by-step beta launch method I developed that allows me to launch crazy fast to show you how easy it can be done if you just get out of your own [00:00:26]way. [00:00:26] [00:00:26] I've been a full time online entrepreneur since 2011 and I do things differently than most online entrepreneurs. I mean, I started doing it the way that everybody tells you to, where you create lots of valuable free content so that you can build an audience and an email list and then ask them what they really want and need. [00:01:00] Then you create a product that fills that need. You set up your sales funnel and then you offer it to people and you hope that they buy it. It can take months, if not years, to finally get your product service or course out on the market. And I know this because that's what happened to me. It took me, I think, a good solid two years to create my very first course and get everything ready to go so that I could launch it. [00:01:27] Now the problem with that method is that. There's no money coming in while you're doing all that. There's lots of money being spent and you're taking a ton of time creating free content and getting everything set up and paying for all the softwares, and honestly, it's really easy to start overthinking things and get caught in that fear of failure and not actually ever putting it out there. [00:01:51] When you finally launch it. You have no idea if all that time and money spent is going to be worth it. I mean, what if people don't buy? What if you spend two years getting something ready to go and making it perfect and then nobody buys it? Right? I used to do it that way, but it's so risky and there are so many unknowns. [00:02:13] Plus it just takes so long before you finally start making money. But two years ago I found a much better way and I basically do things backwards now. I start by selling the thing that I want to sell before I've created it before. I've done pretty much any of the other steps with very minimal audience building. [00:02:36] I know sounds crazy, but I'll explain how I do it in a bit. Then. I create it with the people who join and I listen to what they need as we go. It's really a cocreation process that's very interactive. Then I leveraged the money that I made by selling that beta course to build an audience faster and create a final, more polished version of the course. [00:03:01] After that beta courses done. And I use the success stories from the initial beta course to market and promote it in the future. So I really do things backwards and actually the first time I bade a launch like this was about two years ago when I pivoted my business from working with any kind of professional photographer to specifically helping people who wanted to pivot into personal brand photography. [00:03:24] It was honestly kind of accidental. I wasn't planning on doing it. But it totally changed how I launched. and I made . And when I did it that way, I made just over $70,000 in that very first beta launch, and I was able to hit seven figures with that course alone in less than 18 months because I was able to invest the money I made up front in that first beta course launch to grow much faster. [00:03:56] Now you can listen to all the details about that specific beta launch in here. All the reasons why I think beta launching is the only way to launch a new product in episodes 10 and 11 from season one of the podcast. But this upcoming beta launch I'm doing is a little bit different. Because this time I don't have an email list to leverage like I did in the last launch, and I'm offering it to a completely different audience and market. [00:04:23] It's a complete pivot with no overlap with what I've been doing. And so I've had to get really creative with how I'm going to market this and get it in front of people. Now I'm doing this because the coronavirus has cut my sales down in my photography education business over 80% and so they are way down from what they were. [00:04:45] Because frankly, if photographers can't be doing photography right now and so they're not spending money at the moment, so I'm choosing to see this time as the perfect time to launch something new and a completely different space instead of focusing on the fact that everything is failing right now in my regular business because people aren't spending money there. [00:05:05] I know that'll take off when they can get out and start working again. But in the meantime, it's kind of a beautiful gift to myself to be able to go after something new and try something that I've been wanting to do and teach for a long time, but haven't yet. So if you want to hear the whole story of how I came to this point, go back a few episodes to the start of season two and start listening from there as season two released right after the pandemic hit, and we are all starting to get the stay at home orders. [00:05:32]But in today's episode. I'm just going to give you the overview of the beta launch method that I'll be following to launch this new course in a brand new market. Then in the next few episodes, I'm going to take you behind the scenes and how I'm actually doing. Each step of the process so that you can do it too if you want to. [00:05:52] So this is really the big picture. I'm not going to tell you what I'm doing for each step here that's coming in the next few episodes. So definitely subscribe if you want to hear exactly how I'm going to do each of these steps in detail so that you don't miss them. I don't want you to miss a single step because they're really important. [00:06:10]So if you want to get a copy of this checklist that I'm going to go through today so you don't have to scribble notes really fast, or you know, if you're doing the dishes or something, you don't have to worry about stopping and taking notes I need to do is sign up via email for our weekly newsletter at personalbrandjourney.com and I'll send it right over to you. All right, so let's dive into the checklist that I'm doing in this beta launch method. [00:06:35] Okay. So number one, the very first thing I did, and this was really hard for me, was to get super aligned with what else I would do if I wasn't doing photography education, what's most true to me? what would I love to be known for? Now, I haven't asked myself this question in a few years, and so it was really hard for me to step away from what I've done in the past and think, okay. [00:07:02] What might I want to be known for if it's not personal brand photography or if it's not in the photography industry. If everything was opened up and I was starting from fresh, what would it be? So that's where I'm starting because I know that when we're most aligned with what we're doing and we are really excited about it and geek out about it in the craziest of ways, we will grow so much faster. [00:07:25] Next up. I wanted to get really clear on who this is for. Super specifically. A lot of people call this the ideal client avatar. There's lots of different ways to find this, but for me, I had to get very, very clear on exactly who I wanted to serve with this and who I could help most in this area of alignment that I wanted to be known for. [00:07:47] Step three was to identify the acute super painful problem that these people have that is going to get them to pull out their credit card now so that I can help them with the solution, which brings me to step four. Is identifying what wins are they going to get when they go through my beta course. Now I'm looking at both quick wins because people want to get some sort of result fast, but also what kind of longterm transformations are going to happen when they apply the method and the framework that I'm going to be teaching them. We need that quick win to keep that momentum going. Plus, that quick one really helps us with collecting success stories, which is super important when you're doing a beta launch. But you don't want to forget about how this all works long term. [00:08:38] So I like to have both of those. So I'll explain all of that when I talk through step four later in step five. And this one is really hard. You have to really sit down and say, what makes this new or different from what's already out there and not just better, better is not enough. Better is great, but it's really hard to sell better because if they've tried somebody else's course or method doing what you want to teach and they haven't gotten results with it, and yours is the same, it's just better. [00:09:10] You know? In your mind, are you trying to convince them that it's better. It doesn't matter because they're like, Oh yeah, I've already tried that. It didn't work. Even if I try it and do it better, I still don't think it's going to work. You have a lot more to overcome now when you have something new or slightly different from what other people are doing, it makes it so much easier for somebody to join because they haven't tried it before. [00:09:33] They're like, Oh, well, I tried part of it, but I've never tried it with this angle or this hook, and so having something new or different is really important . Step number six is getting really clear on what the exact offer is. What's the format going to look like? How much is it going to cost? [00:09:50]How am I going to deliver it? All of those things need to get outlined in very specific. Step seven is developing the content framework that I'm going to teach in this beta course. This honestly has been the most time consuming part for me because I am teaching something that I do naturally. I do this without even [00:10:12] Thinking and I have built it into my business in so many different ways, that having to extract it and putting it into frameworks that I can teach to others has definitely taken a lot of time, but it's also been the most fun thing I've done in a really long time. So I can't wait to share that with you and tell you a little bit more about the content that I'm going to be teaching when I get to the podcast. [00:10:33] On step seven. Step eight is really figuring out what messaging is going to resonate with people when I explain it to them. So they want to be part of the beta course. [00:10:45] This is super duper hard because I know that what I have to teach can help a ton of people. But it's different than what other people are teaching. And it's really hard to explain something that's new and different. So I'm going to talk with you all about how I'm going to message it and how I'm going to explain it to people so that it's clear and it shows them why they should join. [00:11:07] honestly messaging changes over time. As you're doing a beta course and as you are running your business and talking to your people and getting to know them, having conversations with them, it's going to shift and change. You're going to refine it. It's going to become more clear, but you've got to start somewhere. [00:11:25] And so that's all of what step eight is about, is trying to figure out how do I explain this? So people really want to have it now and are willing to try. A beta course with me before I've even proven that I can teach this effectively. Step nine is to really identify the barest essentials that I need to launch this, so what technical pieces do I need to have set up? [00:11:46] How am I going to communicate with people and what platforms am I going to use? All of that sort of stuff is what you figure out in step nine. Step 10 is about how I'm going to market this with the no audience. what am I going to do to get in front of the right people so I can start getting people into this beta course and get some momentum building. [00:12:09]Step 11 is getting really clear on how I want to build the audience, what platform I want to use. Am I going to use email? Am I going to use podcasting, etc. And where I'm going to grow this new audience. Step 12 is just the details of when I'm going to open my cart and what I'm going to do during the open cart phase to try and get more sales in to the. [00:12:34]Beta launch. [00:12:35]So that's the process that I'm using to beta launch something brand new and a new market where I have zero audience. [00:12:42] No, I'm totally going to share how the launch is going with you, and I'm going to tell you. All the behind the scenes stuff, as I'm doing it as much as I can so that you can stay caught up with me as I launch this brand new beta course. But in the meantime, if you haven't yet, please subscribe so that you don't miss any of the coming episodes that are going to talk through. [00:13:05]How I'm doing each and every step in detail. [00:13:08] And those are going to be coming right after this one. So subscribe now so you don't miss any of them. And if you want to get a copy of this checklist delivered right to your inbox, simply go to personal brand journey.com and sign up there and I will send it to you via email And finally, if you found any value in this, and if you know somebody else who's either moving into an online business after having run a brick and mortar business and is now shut down because of the pandemic and they really want to try launching something new, or if you know somebody and they're pivoting into something new and you think that they might find this useful. I would really appreciate it if you would take a moment to share this episode with them. [00:13:52]that would just be a really great way to. Say, thank you for the info you've learned here. [00:13:55] So that's it for today. Can't wait to see you in the next episode, or we're going to talk about step one, how to pick this new idea, this new course, and get super aligned with what you're going to be teaching so I'll see you there in the next episode right after this. [00:14:10]

Jera Johnston, joins me today to discuss how to communicate non-violently and the rules around polyamory. www.magicofauthenticityTHE DEEPEST WELL: https://www.amazon.com/Deepest-Well-Long-Term-Childhood-Adversity-ebook/dp/B01N7HZ73BBIOGRAPHY: Aside from raising my brilliant child, perhaps one of the most rewarding 'jobs' I have is serving my community. I have been serving as the NVC instructor and coach for the residents and students of http://lostvalley.org/ Lost Valley Education and Events Center for several years. Now I'm widening my circle by providing these services to groups and businesses all over Oregon! On top of developing and teaching classes on Non-Violent Communication, I also have offerings in Authentic Living Sustainable Loving. I've used my 11 years experience in Polyamory to hone these skills so that my relationship would be healthy and meaningful. This has led me to be in a unique position to offer guidance to those who seek a similar experience in their own Poly relationships. My passion lies in helping people take deep and searching looks into their lives, pulling up the most authentic pieces of themselves to live their best lives!

We are all facing scary and uncertain times right now and learning ways to mitigate fear and anxiety and tools to help reduce stress and help you make better decisions are really important right now. Mental toughness coach Lisa Tamati shares her insights on how to thrive in the tough times and how to keep control over your physiology.   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show: For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runni... Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body. Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epige... measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/minds... Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option. Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening. "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast: Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by LisaTamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:13) Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. Welcome back again, I hope you guys are okay during this coronavirus crisis. That's certainly a big change for us. And today because of that, I wanted to do a session on how to not meet fear, get the better of you all my tips and tricks for helping stay focused at this tough time and how you can stay on track. Um, before I go over to the actual interview, I wanted to, um, remind you that I've just released my book relentless. It is available on my website. Um, you can, I'll put it in the show notes, but you can just hit on over to lisatamati.com and under the shop button you'll find it, the F I'd love you to check it out. And it's actually really good book for this type of crisis because it's all about mindset and it's all about how to keep focus and how to deal with, you know, going up against great odds and really difficult and uncertain times. Speaker 2: (01:02) So you want to check that out. That's relentless how a mother and daughter defied the odds. Go over to my website and check that out. Also at running hot coaching, we've got a special going on at the moment for 12 weeks during this whole lockdown time and in the whole coronavirus wanted to be able to offer extra value and to make it, you know, really affordable for people because we have a whole, not only the running programs now we have a full live workout program that you can do and it's only $49 US dollars to join for the 12 weeks. So if we'd been sitting on the fence for awhile thinking about joining us now would be a perfect time to do that. Especially if you're in lockdown and you want your running training programs and at home workouts. All of it's in there right over to the show. Speaker 2: (01:46) Hi guys, just want me to do a session on not letting fear get the better of you. So about the mix of crosses with the coronavirus, we're probably feeling a lot of fear right now. There's a lot of uncertainty there. Jobs are in dangerous and some of us are incomes and so on. So I wanted to do some practical tips that you can do to control the fear response in your body. Because number one, if you have a fear response going on right now, your immune system is going to be compromised and that's not going to be good as if you're going to be fighting this far as which we hope you won't be. But if you are, you want to make sure your immune system is, is up and running. So the first thing that I want you to look into is done for medic breathing, deep dogmatic breathing. Speaker 2: (02:30) Every time you start to feel out of control, feel triggered, feel stress is to do some deep breathing in through the nose, holding for about four seconds out for four seconds and hold for four seconds. Now that is called box breathing. Now you can do it in a different rhythm. If you've got a really good set of lungs, you might get to seven or eight holding it for that long and doing this just I do this 10, 11 times a day. It's, it's my go to as soon as I'm feeling triggered, as soon as I'm starting to feel upset. Now what does deep do? Well, it stimulates your parasympathetic nervous system. You have to submit two nervous systems, your parasympathetic and sympathetic. You want to be stimulating it this time. And there's a lot of fear around a lot of anxiety. The parasympathetic. Now when you stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system, you are lowering the levels of cortisol and adrenaline that are being produced. Speaker 2: (03:23) Now these are hormones that are really for fight or flight. So back in the caveman days, which our body is still, you know, back there, we haven't evolved to being really where we are in our current world. So we still react to, uh, outside simulates some, you know, I was fear. So back in the day we might've been running away from a tiger, right? And so we needed this fight or flight response. So the amygdala, which is a part of your brain, deep in your brain, that's your limbic brain, that reptilian brain and its mediate responses to put up your heart, a heart rate, increase your breathing rate, uh, make you shit shallow breathe. It causes in your vision so that you have tunnel vision. Uh, it takes away blood from your prefrontal cortex and gives it all the blood into your muscles and so that you're ready to either fight off or run away. Speaker 2: (04:13) One of the two, the final fight syndrome, you'll know the SES. So that's all control where the medulla, now when you do this, you are taking away energy from your immune system, from your rest and recovery system. And you know, this was a great thing back in the day when we were had periodic stress was situations where we needed to run away from the line really fast. But in our day and age we are constantly bombarded with things like emails or problems with work or a phone call from your shitty boss or something that causes the same response. And it can get to the level where it's chronically your chronic amount of stress and you are constantly in this fight or flight state. So at this time when the coronavirus is here and you've got all this uncertainty, it's really, really important that we start to calm down the parasympathetic nervous system or stimulate, sorry, the parasympathetic nervous system and get things quiet and down. Speaker 2: (05:10) Stop the release of that cortisol and that adrenaline going full bore. And now you want those things at certain times but not constantly because you want your immune system to be operating well and you want to be thinking really clearly and there is a break in your decision making ability when you are in the stressed out state. So going back to the deep breathing now, this deep breathing technique will instantly, and I made really, really quickly start to calm the body down. Another great technique of course is meditation. And this doesn't have to be, you know, sitting on the floor, cross legged in an absolute silence that works for a lot of people and it's fantastic if you can quiet your brain down that way. But it also could just be going for a walk outside and we're all a little bit limited in what we're still at the moment allowed to go outside into get some fresh air. Speaker 2: (06:01) And that brings me to the next point. It's taking, you know, um, control of, of some of the things that you can and not focusing on the things that you can't control right now. Taking control of the basics, good hydration, good nutrition, good sleep habits. All of these things are going to help you to stay in control and make good decisions. Okay. And not focusing just on the negative. The next technique that I wanted to give you is visualization. Now I use this a lot with my athletes and I've certainly used it in my career as an athlete. Visualizing a positive outcome. Visualizing yourself as if it's in a, if it's an a running race, obviously envisaging the whole race and the more real you can make this visualization, the bidder in the cause that we are facing, visualize yourself being in control and being healthy. Speaker 2: (06:51) Visualize yourself and being able to adapt really quickly to this, to the situations at hand and you're getting on top of it and your business is going to be okay and your job is going to be all right. And when you visualize, your brain doesn't differentiate between what is real and what is imagined and okay, you can't control whether you're going to lose your job next week. You can't control movies outside variables, but you can stop your body going into this panic state because that isn't going to help anybody. What you want is your decision making ability on fire. So these visualization techniques can help you to start to regulate that into see a positive outcome. The next thing I want you to think about is the challenge versus threat scenario. So if we see something is a threat, and let's be honest, the crime viruses a bloody big threat right now to everything, to our health, to our loved ones, health to our society. Speaker 2: (07:50) But if we can start to really position they in their minds to see it more as an opportunity or a challenge, then that changes the way we perceive it and we are able to then coat a whole lot better. I'll give you an example from a noncurrent divorce situation, but again from my aesthetic Korea, okay, so if I'm looking at this massive race that I'm doing, it might be in death Valley, it might be in the [inaudible] and the Gobi desert or a Niger. Now, as I'm saying that as a threat and it's going to be terrifying and it's gonna be horrific, then guess what's going to happen? My body's going to shut down. I'm going to be in the fight or flight mode. I'm not going to be reacting really well. I'm not going to be coping when you, well, if I can reframe it in my mind to being an amazing opportunity to have this wonderful adventure and to have to turn it into a challenge in an a, an ability to be able to see this in a positive light. Speaker 2: (08:48) And I want you to think about this. Cisco rhino virus is going to give us some benefits. There are some good things that are going to come out of it for each and every one of us. It might be a complete pervert in your lives and you're going to end up doing another job and get out of that dead end job that you've been stuck in but too scared to leave and now you have to leave. So you're going to have to think and learn and redirect. Maybe that's going to be a good thing at the end of the day, none of us actually know. So they're good. They could be real positive things. Going back to a situation like with my mum and I've, you know, I've got my books here in the background. This the story is a really powerful one for the situation that we're going through. Speaker 2: (09:28) When I was faced with mom's aneurysm and that's the fact that she was probably not going to survive and if she did, she was going to have massive brain damage, which she did have and that she was never going to do anything again and I could've taken that prognosis. And just accepted it and taking no action and stayed on decided, no, I'm going to use this. These people telling me that there's no chance and there's no way I'm going to use that as motivation to prove them wrong and I'm going to make this the greatest comeback story and I'm going to get my mum back. And those were the thoughts that I feed into my mind so that I was able to take big, strong action and so that I was able to cope with the stresses that were come at us and it's been, you know, a four year long battle, don't get me wrong. Speaker 2: (10:12) There were times when I was on the ground balling my eyes out and not knowing which way to go forward. The thing is I did keep moving forward and I did keep looking for the next decision. I hate to make the next situation. The next opportunity and that attitude of going all in is one is lead to him miraculous recovery. This is a one in a million recovery, but it's not a one in a million because she was anything special or because I'm anything special. It was a one in a million recovery because we never even gave up and we kept fighting and we looked for the opportunities and we saw the beauty in this process, and this is why I've written the book, is because I want other people to have a blueprint for your mindset and what it takes to go all in on a challenge. Speaker 2: (10:57) And in this Corrado bar situation, we're going to have to go all in. Some of us, this is gonna be, you know, a threat to our incomes and our lifestyles and a massive of change. And we can either crawl up into a facial ball and start crying our eyes out and go, well I can't take any action or we could be warriors and we can stand up and go. Not a lot. I'm not going to take this line down. I'm going to go down sliding if I'm going to go down in going all in with this, with a situation with mum, I know that I could have done all of that and still failed and still lost here. That wasn't the point though. I had no option but to go all that because the alternative was certain days in certain loss. So I had a tiny chance and I took that tiny chance and when everybody told me it was impossible, I just kicked all moving and kept ignoring the people that told me it was bad. Speaker 2: (11:49) So right now what you also want to be doing is surrounding yourself with positive people. If you're listening to this, but you know this video, then you probably want of those people that is looking for a positive input and good messages. And that's fantastic because you are the sum total of the five people you spend the most time with. So if you are around positive people who have a direction, who are saying, right guys, this is the way we're going and this is why we're going to think this is the way forward. And you start listening to positive messages instead of the ones who are, Oh my God, the world is ending. It's apocalypse now and it's all going to be horrific. And you know, like we all have moments like there, don't get me wrong that I don't have those moments, but I keep them in check. Speaker 2: (12:34) And then I turned my mind around again and I tune it again and I tune it again. Every time those negative thoughts come up, I start to turn them around. So I wanted to now talk about, uh, exposure therapy. Now this is another therapy that can be really, really helpful if you are feeling a lot of fear. Now this is not exposure to the virus. We don't want that. But this is like when you are feeling fear for a certain situation or a certain thing that you have to do. And it might be like having to change your profession because you know someone's going to has to. Um, I want you to understand that the more you do something, the more it's going to be, the less you're going to be reacting to it. So I'll just give you a simple example of getting on phone calls. Speaker 2: (13:19) If you hate sales calls, which I used to hate doing sales calls. Now I've changed my perception of what that call is about in term repetition and doing it over and over and over again. It becomes actually a conversation with a friend if the coms nothing to be scared of and most of the things that we face in our life that we are scared of are actually not physical threats. Okay. The coronavirus could be a physical threat to you or your loved ones. I'm not mitigating them, but a lot of the fee is that we have running around in their tummy and then their minds at the moment that it's just going around and around like a hamster wheel is things that I'm never ever going to happen. I even say that the thoughts that we have in our head, the disasters scenarios that we're playing out are not going to happen, so why focus on it? Speaker 2: (14:07) Why not put your energies into focusing on how can I make this the best opportunity for me, for my business, for my profession? How can I help other people? How can I turn this into something that is good for me and my world and my business? I am using this as an opportunity to pivot, to change very quickly, to be adaptable. And I've lost my income. I'll be honest with you, at least six months, I don't have any income. Now I'm a speaker. That's what I do. I go around to conferences, well there are not conferences going on, but I'm not going to sit here and start crying about it. I'm gonna change my perception of what I can do. And then I'm going to pivot really quickly into doing other things and focusing on the positive and they don't get to be prepared also for when life comes back to normal. Speaker 2: (14:52) And we'll we go again. So it's your perception of things is controlling your thoughts. Now I want you, I'm also studying at the moment the functional genomics and this is the study of DNA and genes and how they affect the way everything in your body from methylation to mood and behavior to cardiovascular health, to um, detoxification. All of these areas. Okay. But I wanted to talk to you briefly about a couple of the genes that are in your head and I won't go on to the specifics. I'm going to be writing a couple of blog posts, uh, over the next few weeks and I'm still studying this area of science, but it's absolutely fascinating. There are a couple of genes that really, um, control or give you a predisposition to thinking a certain way and you can get yourself tested and DNA and all that sort of stuff later on when all this crosses over and you find out what you have a predisposition for, um, your edge or to being a gene for example, sample, which is y our adrenal, uh, Jane, if you like, the pains are which variation of the gene as to how long that adrenal and is going to be active on your sip as in your body. Speaker 2: (16:03) And if it's, if you've got the gene where it's going to be attached it to the recipients for a long time and active, you're going to have a harder time meeting golf things. You're going to have a harder time, you're going to have a stronger emotional and printer reaction to things. Um, then another person, another saying is that the brain derived neurotrophic neurotrophic factor, which I'm writing a blog post on now because this has to do with brain rehabilitation, but it also has to do with your mood and your behavior and the how, how susceptible you are to depression and a negative frame of mind. And if you have that, the hamster wheel brain that goes over and over and over. So what I want you to take away from this, without getting into the specifics of which Jane is to realize that every single person is different. Speaker 2: (16:49) Hey, do have a different set of genes. And so we all do experience things in a different way. So if you have someone in your most ho is very prone to panic, is very prone to having neurotic thoughts or the hamster wheel going over and over and getting stuck in a thought pattern and not being able to shift at least understanding some of the factors that are in play here and that their genes just may be predisposing them to doing that. And I'm going to share this blog post that I'm writing at the moment on BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor and what you can do to increase set, uh, in order to help elevate your mood. One of those things for example, is to uh, for the baby and is a example. This is to go and do exercise. Now if you're doing at least 30 to 45 minutes of exercise at 70 to 75% of your heart rate, you're going to increase the production of brain derived neurotrophic and that's going to elevate your mood. Speaker 2: (17:51) And this is why I run, let's get the run is high and I know all of us just enjoy running for the running site. Sometimes we don't even feel like going out there, but after half an hour out there, what happens? You mood elevates. What's that? There's some brain derived neurotrophic factor, inaction, other things that also stimulate that and what elevates your mode. Things like having a hot shower or hot bath or being in a hot warm environment or getting more sunlight to make more vitamin D, which will also help you produce more brain derived neurotrophic factor. All of these things are really important also in the brain rehab side, but I won't go into that right now, but just to understand, genetically speaking, we all have different ways of processing things in our brain and having some love and care and empathy for people who've, who don't see them. Speaker 2: (18:39) Some things the same way as you do, who react very differently and some people will have more a deeper emotional imprint. Then other people, some people will be able to get over things much easier because they have the right combination of genes and another person doesn't have that. That is not to be fatalistic and say, well, those people are babied, is to find out the what can you do? Like the saunas and the hot bows and the exercise and the right supplementation and all of that sort of stuff to help you if you are one of those people affected, increase or head of HIPAA. What resilience when it comes to your emotional wellbeing. So more about that later, but for today's podcast it just wants you to think about some of those things that I've covered off. So I want you to be stimulating your parasympathetic nervous system. Speaker 2: (19:31) That means calming your body down. That means stopping the stress and the adrenaline, the cortisol from pouring out all day, all day long. How are you going to do that? You're going to do that through meditation to that true connection to nature, which I've forgotten to mention. You know, like going outside, listening to the birds, looking at the beauty in the trees, looking at the flowers, standing and staring at the beach. If you're still allowed to do that, anything that will connect you and ground you to mother nature will calm your system down. Doing a exercise of course is also going to do there anything that's going to calm the system down. However one portion, don't go and do extremes, amounts of exercise because that will have the opposite effect. Don't overreach at this time. Firstly for your immune system and also for your, you don't want to upset your whole minds and get everything out of balance. Speaker 2: (20:23) Okay, so you want to be, um, a little bit conservative with your training at the moment. Just nice chain tool and doing things like working in and state of just working out. So not just the, you know, running and breathing and hard, hard work, but also aiding and the stretching, the, the yoga, the plankung. So things that are going to calm the body down, especially in the evening when you're wanting to get that slate. Because remember, sleep is absolute King, so doing these basics right and getting good sleep, if you can get it. I was sleep right now would be really gold. It'll help you emotionally cope with the situation and not fall off the DPN and be short tempered and doing all those crazy things. Now, just before I go, you have this thing in the, in the Brian like I said, called the amygdala, which is a very formative part of the brain that controls a lot of these trigger responses. Speaker 2: (21:16) And you know, in the past, I'll be honest with you, I've had a lot of problems with anger management. So I think I've got some warrior dreams from my, my Maori side, either that or the German or Irish sort of data. Um, and I've been triggered in the past and reacted in ways that I, you know, was not proud of afterwards. Um, and also learning to, to manage these reactions. Now a lot better. I wouldn't sound perfect, but I'm a lot bitter. The amygdala reacts before your, uh, your prefrontal cortex kicks into gear. It's very primitive. It's very lightning fast. So if you're feeling triggered right now, you know one of the things that I'm worried about in this crosses is the mystic piece going up is people doing things that they wouldn't normally do because they are stressed out and they're frightened and they're doing all these things and they were make deliver, starting to take control. Speaker 2: (22:07) So I want you to learn just a couple of trucks to keep it under control. One of them is that deep breathing, if you're feeling triggered, if you started to have fights in the family cause you're in close quarters, you've got the kid screaming, you don't know how you're going to pay the bills, your businesses going on the and you're fighting and you know this, this is all us. I think we are all feeling this type of stress right now. Then getting a controlling amygdala and not acting in a triggered state. You know, walking away, going to the other end of the house, doing some deep breathing, starting to tune your logical brain on the way I do this. And getting blood back to the logical brain. Cause the amygdala takes it away from the and helps you, makes you make bad decisions. The rang, I get a controller that as I start to do some logical problem solving things in my brain, like counting backwards from a hundred and lots of seven and I have to go, Oh, how much is that 193 and so on. Speaker 2: (23:04) And I have to actually think about it. And that makes me calm down again and gives me a chance to get on top of that adrenaline and cortisol that's come out and makes me want to have a scratch. Um, cause that's not good. And what you're doing when you get into this triggered state also in, in the anger response is you, uh, releasing the cortisol, which is, which is pumping out your blood sugars. So remember those begin angry and you're going to weight problems. You making things worse. You're going to put on more weight because you've increased your cortisol, you're going to leave the four have, have more, a whole warfare. Okay. So there's one, there's a really good reason not to get angry and to stay cool and calm. And this is one of the reasons why doing yoga and [inaudible] and all of those debriefing and all that actually helps you lose weight, which is not the topic of today's conversation, but it does say it because it's actually lowering the cortisol, the stress levels in the body. Speaker 2: (24:01) Interesting, isn't it? How we, uh, such complex characters and if we understand more about our physiology and our biology and how things actually interplay, then they can really, really help us in overcoming all these challenges that we're facing. So that's makes us very, guys, I hope this has been helpful to you or please decide that the, or if you want to reach out to me, please do. I'm, you know, this is what I, I'm begging to the mental game. I'm big into the mindset and mental toughness and leadership in, you know, um, some of the lessons that I've learned along in my now quite long nights, um, and sharing those insights with you. Not from a place of I know better because God knows I still have a hell of a lot of things to learn. But from applied, so via I've, I've experienced a few things, bring around the block a few times and wanting to share some of these insights. Speaker 2: (24:53) I do that also on my podcast, which is called pushing the limits. I would love you to go and subscribe to pushing the limits because I have some of the greatest minds. I don't know how I get some of these amazing people on the air, but I do, if you look back over the episodes that I've managed to record in the last four years, you've got Nobel prize winning scientists. You've got, you know, some of the top scientists actually in the world, some of the top doctors in the world, some of the top athletes in the world. And I'm not exaggerating, there's been some absolute legends on my show. Say, you know, I be a good way to spend a few of those nails we stuck at home. Um, uh, listening to the podcast is called pushing the limits. You can find it on iTunes, on Lipson, on Stitcher, or via my website, at least at [inaudible] dot com and while you're the gone grab one of my books, one of my friends, uh, especially running this right now is a super book for you to be reading, to strengthen your mind. And, um, really thank you for your time today. And we'll see you again soon. Speaker 1: (25:49) that's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3B9BXuy3k&w=560&h=315] In this special bonus podcast, we take a moment to talk to Aaron Goldfarb, whiskey and cocktail journalist and the author of Hacking Whiskey. We talk about his origins and how he got into journalism. The state of NYC at the moment during COVID-19. Then we talk about what led him into covering spirits, his thoughts on the secondary market crackdowns, some of his favorite articles, and where inspiration strikes. Show Notes: Hacking Whiskey Transcript 0:00 Alright, you knew I couldn't do a whole podcast without screwing up. You're gonna think I'm a boomer all these guys at home. 0:07 I'm Generation X. I swear it. Starts from the top. 0:22 Welcome to this special bonus episode of bourbon pursuit. We're all stuck at home during quarantine. So I can't think of a better way to make the time go by faster than bringing a few bonus podcasts to you all. In this episode, we're joined by Aaron Goldfarb. He's a renowned whiskey and cocktail writer. So you've likely come across many of his articles through vine pear, calm, esquire.com, whiskey advocate, bourbon plus, and many more. He has a book out called hacking whiskey and we talk about that later in the show as well. Now at the beginning of this podcast during that blooper, it sounded pretty good. Did that sound about normal? Well, it's about the sound a bit muffled because I 1:00 wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Aaron was talking into his computer microphone instead of the external one. But don't worry just a few minutes in, we fix it and it all gets squared away. Now make sure that you are subscribed to our Facebook and YouTube channels because we are doing live streams pretty regularly now, and we'd love to have you join us. So enjoy this bonus episode and remember, keep those hands sanitized. We're all in this together. Cheers. 1:30 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, a special COVID-19 edition. Kenny here and we are talking with somebody that had tried to join us in the last roundtable but we had some technical difficulties so I wanted to reintroduce everybody to the man Aaron Goldfarb. So welcome back. Take us back to the show. Yeah, I think I might have faked those technical difficulties just because I wanted that one on one conversation with you. You know what? I you're you're making a little money. 2:00 blush a little bit. I appreciate the appreciate the kudos there. But honestly, we're happy to have you. You know, actually, I got a message from Ryan and Fred earlier. They're like, hey, Are we recording something tonight with Aaron? And because I just I just put it in our BP calendar. And Ryan was like, man, I hurt my back today. I can't make it. I feel so bad. And then, Fred's Fred's. So everybody probably knows that he's doing live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock. And he's like, he's like, I can't make it just let Aaron know that he's one of my favorite writers. And I was like, it's like it's okay guys. Like I can I think I can handle this on my own. 2:35 I don't get double team. Yeah, when we start talking about whiskey and it's an easy way to kind of get going. So I kind of want to you know, learn more about you, I guess, you know, we've I've read a lot of your stuff before, through various media outlets and everything like that. But you know, I, we don't really know much about you. So kind of talk about a little bit like about your entry, like, first into journalism. And then really what 3:00 got you into whiskey as well? 3:02 Yeah, you know, my entry into drinks writing and whiskey is kind of just consistent failure over 20 years I, I went to film school 3:12 at Syracuse and I wanted to be a filmmaker. I kicked around in the early aughts and Manhattan, writing screenplays and trying to make films that didn't work very well. 3:24 wrote a few novels those worked a little better. But this whole time, like any good writer, I was drinking heavily. 3:33 helps me get through the good times in the bed. Right? But unlike the other writers who might have been slugging handles of vodka, I thought, well, you know, there's a better way to get drunk. 3:44 And luckily, you know, I moved to Manhattan in 2001. And that was right as craft beer was emerging. That was right. As you know, the craft cocktail scene was emerging in New York, the epicenter of all places. That was as you 4:00 You know, bourbon was again becoming hot, you know, Pappy 15 comes out in 2004, I believe and you know, you can get on the shelves for 30 bucks or 50 bucks. And that was a lot of money to me back then. So I didn't buy as much of it as some of my friends that had normal jobs did at the time. But, you know, it's very lucky to just be old and growing up at the right time, that naturally I was in all these scenes at the same time. 4:33 So I developed a knowledge base. I never had any plans to write about this stuff. 4:39 You know, your college counselor or your high school counselor doesn't say, you too, can be a whiskey writer when you grow up. 4:46 You know, maybe they say that these days, but they weren't saying that in the late 90s and early 2000s. 4:53 You know, I think maybe David wonder was the only booze writer on planet earth Michael Jackson, maybe 4:59 I've heard that name. 5:00 Before I know Fred's talking about Michael Jackson before, and everybody wants to think of the pop singer, but no, there was somebody before that, that or maybe not before that, but still a person in the scene that was writing a lot about about Jackie and about cocktails. Yeah, you know, Lou Bryson, I guess was there, he's always been there. 5:18 But you know, I built this knowledge base. And then, you know, around 5:23 the late aughts, the early 2010s. Now, all of a sudden, the mainstream publications were realizing, you know, these things are red hot, and we haven't cultivated any writers that necessarily know about these things. So I was a writer, not a magazine writer, or website writer, and I knew these things. And so my first gig ever was for Esquire, I kind of fell backwards into one of the best, you know, in my opinion publications in in the history of America. And I was writing beer and whiskey and cocktail stuff for them. You know, from 6:00 I don't know 2008 2009 on and then I kind of worked myself backwards and started writing for more niche publications, you know paunch fine pair whiskey advocate bourbon plus, and, you know, everywhere I've written for everyone by now, you know, I'm sure I'll be fired from jobs and right for new ones I mean it's the life of a freelance writer you take what you get and move on to the next one. That's it's interesting to like just like fall into Esquire that's like somebody like in my world just saying like, Oh, I got my first job. It's a Google right it's like in the in the tech world. So I think it's it's really interesting and cool like how you want to do that so have you been Have you been in Manhattan in New York most your life or like his his New York something? Are you your homeboy, you Norco your whole life? No, I kind of have a weird growing up too. I'm, I believe, a fifth or sixth generation. 6:54 Born in New York, and I lived there till I was about three or four and then, you know, this was the early 80s 7:00 In New York City, which I don't know if you've heard there were some issues. My my family moved to Oklahoma City. So along with Fred, I would be the second Oklahoma regular. I'm here. 7:12 live there till high school then, you know, back to New York since then. And I went to college at Syracuse and upstate New York, and I've been in New York City, now Brooklyn, since 2001. And I've been a Brooklyn since 2014. And so you're also in the kind of like the epicenter of what's happening right now with the Coronavirus I mean, especially with I shouldn't say the episode that's actually in China, but I'm saying like in America, like where all the eyeballs are on right now. It's like where you're at because it's it's the most you know, between you and San Francisco. It's the most densely populated area inside of the United States and you know, the numbers that are coming out and staggering like, I'm assuming that like right now it's it's pretty chaotic, like you'd be able to just like, look out your window and just like to see the rat start scurrying because there's no people out like, kind of give us an idea of like, what what's 8:00 Life in New York City right now. Well, you know, it's funny, I'm, you know, I've had some professional successes in my life, you know, books and whatnot. And that doesn't lead to strangers from my past necessarily writing me but this everyone I've ever met in the world who's got my email or phone number has been messaging me i think i think people assume with all the death and whatnot. It's a zombie apocalypse here, but 8:30 you know, I, I go outside every day. Some days I take a jog. There are not a lot of people on the streets. I am in a quieter neighborhood in Brooklyn. I'm in Park Slope, which is a family friendly neighborhood, but it is. It's, you know, a brownstone neighborhood. It's not the sticks by any means. I don't know what it's looking like in Manhattan now. I haven't been there in a month and I'm not sure if I'll be there for another several months. But um, 8:56 yeah, the streets are empty. 8:59 There's a lot 9:00 around the block space by six feet to get into every supermarket I go, I go Trader Joe's he's going crazy for Trader Joe's during this and it's it's funny like you say that cuz I've noticed that even our Trader Joe's there's people like lined outside so we'll say I would never go to Trader Joe's because the aisle width and news York is incredibly tight so I kind of go to the places where I don't want anyone bumping into me getting close to me. 9:27 You know of course unlike a lot of places we shop in New York by carrying it home so I go to my you know, snobby supermarket across the street and I put as much as I can possibly carry and I don't even really think that hard about what the week of meals is going to look like. And today my family just ate a grilled chicken with you know, whatever scraps we could also find some days we're eating incredibly and others were not like we ordered delivery about once a week that's still very avid here. 10:00 If you haven't heard just about every great cocktail bar is delivering cocktails right now. I haven't done that a lot. Because I have lots of booze myself, as you can see, and I know to make cocktails, and I'd rather deliver him and not coming to my house, both for both of our sakes but um, you know, if if you 10:19 you know, if I didn't have a family, I would just be reading a book a day and writing an article a day and watching a movie every night and drinking some whiskey and 90 days later, I'd come out of this, but I'm living in a house with a three year old and a newborn, and a wife who's on conference calls 10 hours a day for her busy job. So it's it's very stressful. It's very hectic, I'm outside of this dwelling 30 minutes to an hour a day if I'm lucky. 10:46 And you know, that's life right now. It's it's for people that are single and alone. It's probably lonely and incredibly boring. For people with families. It's It's It's probably the most stressful 11:00 In aggravated and tense I've ever been, you know. 11:05 So I kind of want to get back into your a little bit of your your journey into bourbon and your journey into whiskey. Like Did you have a Sherpa along the way that kind of taught you? You know, because I can look behind you in the camera right here and I see a bunch of wild turkeys decades. You got some knobs you got, but I mean you got more Russell's picks than probably rare bird 101 so 11:28 that's, and that's that's part of it too. So kind of talk about like, who was who's kind of like taught you the ropes. 11:36 You know, I kind of have a weird Sherpa. It wasn't you know, an older gentleman. You know, a good buddy of mine from college. You know, we were talking about I was kicking around making, you know, $15,000 a year writing screenplays no one wanted he became a salesman from day one. And this is my friend Derek. 11:58 And, you know 12:00 He had a massive expense account. So he didn't know more than me. But he could afford to learn things on someone else's dime. And I mean, a massive expense account. You can't even get guess the number and I won't say it in case there's 12:18 lessons and causes Listen, well, he doesn't work there anymore. But in case any litigation is pending. No, he lived in DC, which, you know, of course, at the jack rose. We've heard about what's going on with them right now. 12:31 And we, you know, he'd come to New York a lot for business. And again, this was when the emergence of really great bars in New York were coming, you know, milk and honey 1999 pegu club, I think that's 2005. 12:48 PDT 2009. Now New York's never been a really great whiskey city. To be fair. There's just too many rich people that, you know, if jack rose existed in New York, it wouldn't exist on day two. 13:00 They just got to make their prices even higher than if that's what it takes. You literally cannot price trophy bottles high enough in New York to keep them in stock. 13:10 But anyways Derek, you know we'd come to New York and we just spent silly money trying every cocktail on the menu at PDT trying any good thing in the house and you know, in the in the arts in New York City 13:26 it was still a wine city. So, you know, things like Pappy were in George t stag and stuff you could, you know, get for a reasonable Port $20 report wasn't reasonable to me back then. But of course it was reasonable to people with money so you know, even when I wasn't a writer, even when I had absolutely no money, I tried every every great whiskey released from you know, the late 90s on I never owned any of these bottles till till you know the last decade when I actually started making money by 14:00 You know, I remember when Derek got I think a case of tornado survivor and just all this stuff we were we were trying all this stuff and I you know, we were both learning together on on his his company's time. I mean, learn the learn on a case of tornado I think that's your living right are you know the right people I mean that's that just kind of give us the whole thing of like, you know you never own a boat, but you have a friend that owns the boat. And even better if the friend owns the boat and someone else is paying for it. See, there you go. That's, that's 10 times better. 10 times better. You know. And there's one thing that you kind of mentioned right there about, you know, trophy bottles like in New York just being always astronomical and always rocket high. I mean, I'm assuming at this point, like you've given up the chase in regards to finding something around New York, you've got your local spot, or do you just rely on as you mentioned earlier, just like buying pics from some of your favorite people in the scene? 14:57 Yeah, well, you know writers like me. 15:01 are lucky I get to at least try everything 15:06 released because because companies send it out they don't necessarily send full bottles but Buffalo Trace since you know the B tech lineup every year and you know, every company wants you to taste their stuff. 15:18 And I like all that stuff if I ran into, you know, George t stags or hands at reasonable prices, I do buy them. 15:27 But you know, one of my favorite things to drink is is Russell's reserve pics and they're 50 bucks or 60 bucks. That's what I'm drinking most nights. That's what I was drinking earlier tonight. This is what I'm drinking right now. 15:40 Oh, there you go. The bourbon Community Roundtable internet friends pick. I thought I thought I'd kiss some ass. We'll take it. But you know, some of this stuff is extraordinary. wilderness trail is extraordinary right now and even though I have you know, thousand dollar bottles in my house that I really don't give a crap about them being 16:00 drained. I'm reaching for wilderness travel right now I'm reaching for Russell's reserve single barrels almost every single night that I'm drinking. 16:09 So, you know, I don't I don't know why. That's what interests me. You know, Blake said to me, you know, he's drank so much great stuff that he kind of enjoys the rawness of young young craft whiskey. And I wouldn't say I enjoy that that much. But you know, wilderness trail has a flavor profile, you're just not used to, you know, how many more, you know, aged mdps can you drink? How many more you know? 16:33 weeders from Buffalo Trace, can you drink you know, at a certain point, it's fun to try new flavor profiles. And that's one reason I think you're seeing a lot of bourbon geeks get into Armagnac or wine or other stuff just because they're bored with with their palates. After you've drank everything. You're just like, you know, I need something else to excite me. Yeah, that's true. I think you I think you bring up a pretty good point too, especially when we talk to a lot of people in the whiskey realm. And I think it was probably what 17:00 Three years ago, maybe two years ago when this whole like MGP craziness, like what? A Well, I mean, just it went off the off the rocker. And there are groups that were searching and hunting and just trying to find this, you know, anything over 10 year MGP and just clearing out these smaller distilleries that had anything left of it. And people are really hung up on it. And, you know, when they look at even like what we did, and starting on whiskey line and saying, like, Well, why don't you go MGP right, because everybody else was doing it. Right. And, and I think that's, hopefully it's at the point that you people will start getting that sort of fat or palate fatigue of trying the same thing over and over and over again. I think Blake's a little bit of a special character thinking that like, Yes, I want young, young Raul whiskey. 17:43 I wanted to see if he get that tattooed on his back or something like that. But um, I think I think you do bring up a solid point there because there's a lot of not only great values, which you just talked about in the Russell's world, and you get a lot of diversity, especially with those pics 18:00 There's a lot of good stuff coming out from younger distilleries now that are starting. And I think this is a while we see the the plunge of MGP stock in B, you know why I think people are going to start changing their their minds here in a little bit. Because there has been this idea that, oh, like, I'm not buying gun whiskey, I'm not buying something that's not from Kentucky. That's I, I was that person like two years ago, maybe even three years ago, I was that person too. But now like, we're starting to get to the point where a lot of these distilleries around the country outside of Kentucky are having products that are four years old that are their knockouts, I mean, they're fantastic. And we're going to get to the point here in the next, maybe another two, three years, where the shelves are just gonna be littered full of just goodies like that. Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, a lot of people used to think craft whiskey sucked because it wasn't old enough. And now you have craft whiskey. 19:00 That's you know, and it's second decade and some of it still sucks which proves 19:06 the reason it sucked was not because it was young and then you have wilderness trail and new riff which are you know, four or five years and they're they're incredible you know a lot of craft whiskey I drink one time just to see what it tastes like well there's Tron New Roof I actually reach for over you know, the big boys 19:25 So, you know, it wasn't he that a lot of these brands that I will not name unless you you know, get me in a bar, not on your podcast were bad was because they were bad because they were distilled poorly because maybe they were fermented poorly because who knows why. 19:41 But you know, wilderness trail is as certainly shown that youth is not 19:47 any excuse for not being great. So so you know a lot about whiskies we can get that we can look behind you can read a bunch of your articles about whiskey, but you make a lot of different articles about mez cows and 20:00 About everything, like, kind of talk about your journey into other spirits like, it's it's cool to have your buddy that helps you get into this wonderful world of bourbon that probably spoiled you beyond belief. But then how do you how do you get into all these other sex of like figuring out I know you've done stuff on like the perfect Martini or stuff like that to like, kind of talk about, like, how do you get into the realm of doing that as well? Well, the cynical answer is I'm a freelance writer, and every article I write makes money so 20:32 you tell me what to write about. I'm in exactly. I'm writing an article right now. I'm sorry, Fred. Pay to pay was good. 20:41 But no, you know, I have a theory that guys like us. 20:47 We collected things and we were obsessed with things from day one. I collected baseball cards, comic books, anything and I collected them as hard as but I needed full sets. I needed everything I needed to know every any passion I need. 21:00 To know everything, and then you know on to the next one. So at a certain point, you don't know everything about whiskey That's impossible. You're still learning stuff. That's why I think a lot of people have moved back towards towards dusties. Because, you know, once you've kind of mastered the modern whiskey culture, you got to start learning. Oh, that distillery produced that Oh, that's where you know, you know, stilts or whatever. And then you start moving on to other things and other tastes. 21:29 You know, as I said, Armagnac has become an inexplicably kind of big amongst, you know, upper echelon geeks. You know, it's just fun. I do drink neat whiskey almost every single night. I'm not, you know, reaching for other stuff every single night, but I like to learn 21:47 other things. 21:50 You know, I drink a lot of rum rums a very weird category as I'm sure if you've read ROM curious. You might know Yeah. 22:00 down around here somewhere. Yeah, yeah. 22:03 A lot of cool things in ROM. You know, I'm Mike my quarantine drink of choice has actually been gin cocktails, which are fun. Yeah, I will say that I am a big fan of gin cocktails. It's just something that is it's light refreshing guys. Actually gimlet is like my number one. That's what I always reach for. That's actually my my wife and his official cocktail of quarantine the gimlet. See, we can hang out. It's like It's like Gatorade and cocktail form. And I'll tell you 22:34 and shout out to new riff. They've got a barrel aged gin, and that's what I've been drinking and it really is. Yes, it's fantastic with it. I have a bottle of that over there. I like their gin, but I've never thought to use a barrel aged and am I gimlet? Alright, tomorrow. Here you go. We're creating new traditions around here already. Yeah. So no, I you know, I'm just a fan of everything except vodka actually, but I will write about it. 22:57 You know if if something's interesting, I want 23:00 Drink it if something's tasty, I want to eat it. If something's good to read, I want to read it. You know, there's lots of things in this world I don't just don't understand people that you know, kind of get stuck in their lanes and don't try to enjoy and learn as much as they can about everything. It's It's fun to learn things. I mean, that's kind of the most fun thing is, you know, I'm trying like everyone else. I'm also getting into arm and Yak and it's fun to start at zero. And you know, after a year ago, I kind of know a little about Armenia. I could I could tell someone about that. Oh, I know a little bit about mezcal. I don't know a lot about mezcal, you know, that article you're referencing, we did a blind tasting with two bonafide experts. And, you know, I think I have a pretty good palate. So I can say what I think is good and bad, but I can't tell you about you know, the varietals of a golf a or you know why this one tastes like this or where this grew or you know, the different ways of fermentation but they knew all that, you know, and it's inspiring to think, wow, I could learn all that, you know, bourbon kind of really only has one way to make it 24:00 mezcal is infinite. You know, rum has so many. Just lots of stuff to learn and so little time, except now when we're all sitting home. 24:10 So you're, you're like a leech of information is that what it comes down to? Because you're able to kind of just talk to a lot of these people that are really, really know it alls in this world and just kind of really take their story and harness it and develop something that is appealing to a visual reader. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll never convince my parents that the most fun thing about writing about alcohol is is actually getting free education is not free booze, but, you know, it's, it's really great. You know, some of my story ideas are literally like, you know, I'd like to know a little bit more about that. And, you know, it's like a con game, I can reach out to the most important person on the topic, and they're going to talk to me if you're an average off the street, and you email the most important, you know, Armagnac maker Gen distiller and said, Can I talk to you for an hour they'd be like, 25:00 know why, but you know, they'll move mountains to talk to me just because I will write about them. So, you know, it's it's not just a way to pay the bills. It's not just a way to get free drinks. It's, it's, it's a free education on topics that interest me and you know, after over a decade of this stuff, I still have a passion for it all. So when we get back to like a whiskey article, is there one that you've written over the years that you look back and you think like, man, I loved writing that one like was, you know, was it the person? Was it the? Was it the whiskey? Like, what was it that that really like, drove you for that article? You know, my favorite articles are kind of goofy or dumber, less prestigious ones. I mean, I will admit, like the one you did with, what was it? Janae Yeah. Janae. And she made that ridiculous, old fashioned way back in the day that went viral. And you kind of said like, all right, where's she now sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, those are my favorite to write. 26:01 You know, I can I can write a, you know, 26:04 interview with a distiller or an article on how a whiskey is made, you know, in my sleep but you know, the kind of weird ones one of my favorite articles I wrote for ponch probably four or five years ago was the history of when it became very trendy in New York and Miami for bars have beds in them literal beds in them. 26:23 And those stories are always very hard to report. You know, if you if you want to write a story about you know, a distillery today, it's very easy to get these people on the phone to talk to you, they'll talk to you all day. But if you you know, I wrote a history of of foam parties a few weeks ago for fine pair, How the hell do you find a guy in the 90s who decided you know, we should blast foam into these a booth in nightclubs. It's not easy. 26:49 And it's, it's, you know, I could write a lot easier stories I could write, you know, what we call listicles Top 10 whiskies and, and, you know, get paid And work for an hour but you know, I just thought 27:00 have a passion for finding these really stupid, weirdo stories and bringing them to you. I just had flashbacks of like Panama City Beach, Florida next spring break. It's just what happened right there. 27:15 I can't wait to read that article and it comes out. So there's nothing that you'd mentioned right there about like, top 10 lists. And it seems like that is that seems to be a driver for a lot of lot of articles. It seems that it I mean, it could be articles, it could be YouTube videos, it's anything anything as a top whatever. It just drives people to it. I mean, do you have a like a love hate relationship with it? 27:40 Yeah, I mean, you know, every time uh, you know, 27:45 Esquire, GQ, you know, best whiskeys to drink right now. 10 best, whatever lists come out, you know, I see the Facebook comments I'm not seeing articles written by me articles written by anyone. And people resume their, you know, the, the brand paid for them or whatnot. 28:01 It's it's not that insidious but you know it's it's kind of like an ecosystem. You know, the brand hires a publicist and pays them, the publicist and bottles to a writer. The writer drinks the bottle, the writer wants to keep the publicist happy. The publishing company asked for a top 10 whiskies list. They publish the last 10 whiskies the last 10 publicists they like sent to them, rinse repeat, so I don't really like that stuff. 28:27 publicists probably hate me more than most writers in New York because, you know, kind of 28:32 bitchy and I don't play those games. But you know, every writer on planet earth writes listicles whether it's David wonder richer, you know, whoever, you know, they pay the bills. They have good SEO. Everyone argues about them. It doesn't matter what website it is. If you write the top 10 whiskeys right now it'll do pretty well for the day. I try to write those as little as possible. They do not interest me 28:59 if I'm doing 29:00 Those kind of lists I tried to make them interesting. I did a 29:04 about every year or two, I try to pick the best whiskey in every state for Esquire. 29:10 That'll keep you busy drinking. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And you know, people get furious. That's not North Dakota's best whiskey house as this guy ever tasted, blah, blah, blah. The answer is probably no, I've tasted maybe one or two Caesar, but I'm trying my damnedest unlike a lot of writers who are listening, you know, but as I said, the last 10 whiskies they've gotten the mail. 29:33 But, you know, it can be very tough to be thoughtful in this industry. When a lot of 29:42 you know guys like me, or girls like me that get paid to do it can kind of just phone it in, you know, the amateurs actually put more work in it because they're doing it for a passion not to make money. So you know, whisky blogs are some of the best smartest out there. 29:59 Whereas 30:00 You know, a lot of professional websites and magazines, it was just, you know, Hey, could you write this over the next hour? Well, I don't know anything about vodka. Okay, well, right, it's 30:09 go to the store, get five bottles, review it come up with a list. Yeah. I mean, is that is that something that in the writing world, I mean, I guess I can kind of even picture it my own world where it very beginning of my career, like I was gung ho, and I was trying to cut my teeth doing grunt work and trying to, you know, doing a lot of like, like, really hard kind of it stuff and like working insane kind of hours. And then at some point, you're just like, Okay, give it up. I'll focus on what I'm good at. And then, you know, kind of just like, let the professionalism take off from there. I guess in like, the growth pattern of what a writer is like is does it kind of have that same sort of trajectory or path in regards of, you know, you start off early, as you kind of mentioned as an amateur trying to like write a top 10 list and then you're like, Okay, I'm done with that, like, I'm going to try to find some more 31:00 Interesting. Well, I mean, food and drink writings unlike any other, you know, we're so close to the subjects, you know, we have friendship with bartenders and distillers and whatnot. 31:15 And if we weren't doing it, we'd still you know, drink these things and go to these bars. I don't think anyone would, you know, hang out with politicians if they weren't a political reporter. You know, and there's, you know, the famous thing that just sports writers hate sports by the time they've been a sports writer so long. 31:33 Yeah, you know, when you're early on trying to break into writing, and it's probably different now. 31:38 Or maybe it's even tougher now. You'll take anything someone gives you it just seems like so hard to get paid a literal dollar to write something. So it's less early on for a lot of these writers and I noticed it amongst younger younger writers right now about finding your voice and trying to do in anything interesting. 32:00 And more letting you know the site's dictate you. And the funny thing is, if you came to these sites as a, or magazines or newspapers as a 22 year old with these outlandish ideas with these crazy ideas with these ideas that no one else is writing, you probably have a better chance of selling it, you'd probably have a better chance of making good money 32:21 and it took me a while to figure that out. 32:25 figure out exactly like Oh, you're gonna pay me more I'm gonna go over this way. Yeah, wait, I'm gonna give Redbird a shout out. Yeah, go for it. David's a good friend of the show. So he's an adult and I can see you've got all you got a lot of Turkey breaks over. Okay, yeah. wrestle wrestle the muscle there. so fantastic. So I guess another question is, is that you know, once you start getting into this world, and yet, I can always understand as a writer, you have to be conscious of, you know, where the money's coming from. And so that's what you focus on. But is there something about whiskey that keeps you intrigued or keeps you kind of always tied to it? 33:01 We're like, What is it? What is it about whiskey or bourbon that like keeps you wanting to come back for more? Well, the one thing I don't write a lot about is mine. And I never really understood why I don't dislike wine. I'm not a connoisseur. And then I realized and I said to my 33:18 editor, puncture Italia, I just don't find wine funny. But whiskey is so funny. And if you've read a lot of my stuff, it's about you know, secondary markets. It's about Turkey dues. It's about you know, California gold. It's about infinity bottles. It's about, you know, geeks lining up at jack rose, even though you know, there's a pandemic, you know, there's just so many funny characters. The distillers aren't necessarily funny character characters, but they're not necessarily funny characters. But the collectors the the people that drink it and pursue it and and the people that listen to podcasts about it. They're just funny characters. 34:00 Probably a funny character to look, I live in a 1200 square foot apartment with two children and I got an entire room of whiskey. That's, that's, that's not probably a good use space. 34:12 But um, yeah, it just infinitely cracks me up to to go on the internet every day and just see what whiskey geeks are talking about doing and drinking and trading and arguing about meaning and all that stuff. And maybe one day it won't, but it's really funny to me. And, you know, if you're writing a boot story, and there's not something funny about it, it just doesn't interest me that much. As Sure. There are some of the good memes that come out of whiskey and come out of bourbon, especially, you know, even those secondary markets where people get butthurt. And then you've got the the other groups where there's people that basically have court hearings about you know, stuff like that. I'm kind of like, what at what other point would people just have this like fake court system over a transaction of bourbon that happened on the black market, like 35:00 It's it's comical. Yeah, I mean, you know, my like, career like, ethos has been trying to explain this weird world to like normal human beings like no you you first of all you have to know like 10,000 acronyms. 35:15 Yep. Yeah, I always I always thought that there'd be like a good t shirt like just full of acronyms like everywhere. You have to have like a stock market ticker in your head. What? Happy 23 Pv w 23 is now worth 19,000 You idiot. Then you just have to I mean, you have to know like if I don't pay attention for a week I come back and I'm I'm I'm messaging my friend Derek who's still locked in on it. Like what the hell is going on with this? Is that a real thing? You know? Is this is this will it box club a real thing? And you know, that was I tell you what, that's been one of the greatest recent ones when it's you can just tell the the oh geez versus the new people that are into it. They're like, Where's the signup button? I don't see it. Yeah, well, that's you know, that's 36:00 Also really funny to see you know, it drives me nuts because you know even though I said you know from the get go I was trying very good stuff I still you know, paid my dues and spent money on regular Maker's Mark and odd and stuff and these guys who were you know not even drinkers last week or you know, thinking they can just go from like nothing to balling out with you know George t stag or whatnot, it's like you know, slow down 36:28 train your palate start with 80 proof let's, let's get you up to 36:33 this level. I will say that is is like one of the corner cuts that you are, you know, corners that you can cut here in the in the whiskey world is that if you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the best collections that are out there in bourbon, you know, because it's still, you know, especially in regards of what scotch prices and everything like that our whiskey prices even Pappy 2318 1900 dollars a bottle. That's that's a drop in the bucket for what some scotches go for so 37:00 If you come with a big enough checkbook, you could have one of the most insane bourbon collections that are out there just by buying directly off the secondary. Yeah, that's why it cracks me up you know? 37:10 Every so often there's yeah well constantly there's How do I get Pappy post have money. I mean, it's not hard. 37:17 You know, my friend of mine, Alex Bachman, he, I think he still does he used to 37:24 fill bars with with with spirits that was his job to find, you know, a new bar opens and they want the you know, most sick list he'd fill him up and you know, everyone Oh, we got the full Pappy collection. We'll just give him $10,000 and he can do that. It's not very hard. What's hard is finding 1960s tomorrow. What's hard is finding you know, 1950 stencil well, or what's hard is finding, you know, obscure scotches you've never heard of, or Japanese releases of, you know, whatever. That's hard buying, you know, Van Winkle or B tech that comes out every single year. You just need market rates. 38:00 Money. And again, it's not that much. You're right. I know you've written on the secondary market, but I want to kind of get your idea of like, Where is your stance on it in regards of how it was taking down or how it was kind of like ripped out? Like, was it a good thing for distilleries? Is it bad for the overall ecosystem of bourbon? Like, what's your what's your take on that? 38:18 Well, you know, I used to say, I was a free market capitalist. Now I'm stuck in a pandemic. 38:26 You know, you don't really see the secondary market for new scotch. And why is that? It's because it's priced correctly. 38:35 A lot of bourbon is not priced correctly by the distilleries. 38:41 Because they want to be the good guys who, you know 38:44 20 years ago, there was no such thing as bourbon that cost more than $50. And you know, Blanton's you know, in the 90s didn't sell for $30. So they remember that time, and they remember that time is bourbon being in every man's drink. And so 39:00 They don't want to charge what it should cost. 39:05 And, you know, I'm very friendly with Buffalo Trace, but I don't think you know, releasing their press release every single year and saying MSRP, Pappy 15 $80 or whatever it is, I don't know what it is right now. I don't think that makes him look like a good guy. It just makes everyone else fight over what the accurate prices. 39:26 So I don't begrudge anyone for charging what they charge. I don't begrudge anyone for paying what they pay. 39:33 And I think it's kind of ridiculous that the distilleries get mad at so called gouging. Well, they should price it what its price because no one's bought an $80. Pappy and, you know, a million years unless they live in a control state I suppose and won a lottery, which is likewise absurd. These places. These places would need lotteries if it was priced correctly. 39:56 So now, you know, I think that the the online Secretary 40:00 The market does the job that the distilleries didn't do and that everyone's mad at the liquor stores for trying to do. 40:08 Do you think that this is also a play by some of the distilleries to say, well, 40:15 let's look at the long game here. Let's not try to make a quick buck off of it and price it at the market instead. And you and you know that you've seen pretty much every distilleries putting in multimillion dollar expansions and everything and so they're betting on this on the long term. And it's it's the Amazon model, right? It's it's like let's let's do, you know, massive scale and not try to do you know, just short bursts of high volume? Yeah, you know, that that's true, and that's, that's a fine way to work. You know, how many total van winkles are released a year 80 to 100,000 compared to how many Buffalo Trace Eagle rare whatever. So you know, how much of a moneymaker is it for them, whether it's 41:00 Priced correctly or priced at whatever they want to call the MSRP. Yeah, I think that's a fine strategy and I guess honestly, Buffalo Trace is maybe the only distillery that has to deal with that for roses one release a year old forester one release a year, you know, all these places with one release here. 41:21 have to figure out what it what it should cost. So, you know, if that's what they want to do, I think that's fine. It feels a little hypocritical for them to price it at, you know, a very low MSRP and then get mad at people for pricing. It is the correct one. I likewise think it's silly for 41:40 liquor stores, though to you know, proudly put up their George t stag for $900. It's like, you know, I think you have better goodwill. If you sold it to your best customer for $90. I think you'd have better goodwill if you figured out a way to get it to a true lover for $90. Instead of making that extra three or $400. 42:00 But you know, I people, 42:03 economist aren't necessarily opening liquor stores. So 42:07 that's, that's for sure. Everyone's trying to figure out what works best for them and and pays the bills. Well I think the moral of the story there is that every other distillery needs to come out more special releases. Because if you do that, then they just keep following that same exact trail, every release should be a special release, right? Absolutely. Every bottle of special bottle. 42:30 And so I'm gonna just kind of like go back to like one of your stories real quick, because you had mentioned the California Gold stuff. And I know the person that makes that he's a good friend of mine. And I know that when you write stuff, and whether it be about secondary, whether it be about something like that, you might get a lot of blowback catch a lot of flack online, like have you ever like felt like Oh God, like people are really attacking me over something like this? Yeah, I mean, you know, 43:00 If you're a writer on the internet, you get called an idiot everyday your life. 43:05 But if you feel like you're exposing Fight Club or something, well, you know, it's tough because you know, I'm both a part of the hobby, I enjoy drinking these things. And I don't want to ruin the hobby, but I'm also looking for interesting stories. And after writing these stories for years, it's impossible to ruin the hobby. California gold was again, something I drink at my friend Derek's house. 43:28 And for a year or two, I was like, you got to get me in touch with our friend. 43:36 And, you know, he's he didn't want he didn't want press and then for whatever day when he said, Okay, I'll talk to you. 43:44 And 43:46 my daughter was a newborn then and it was about the worst behave she's ever been. And I was conducting this really tough score of an interview while she was just losing her shit. And yet, it did very well and 44:00 Now people I see a story came out and 44:04 can't even remember a literal magazine citing California Gold the other day and it didn't even it acted like everyone knew what that was. It was very weird, but I've become friends with Mr. California gold. 44:17 We talk occasionally. He's always got interesting takes on things. And I think it's great even though most of the commenters under Facebook will say it's not that good. 44:28 Well, most of the commenters are probably the ones that never actually had a chance to try it. And that's what it comes down. Yeah. So joke's on you with that one. 44:37 Whiskey. Awesome. So, oh, yes, yes. Make sure you're talking about hacking whiskey real quick. I want to give you a plug for that. Sorry for the shameless plug. No, at least through this is actually a perfect book for this time. came out in 2008 18. has a lot of my funny stories like California Gold, infinity bottles, I think I think I'm the first person read about infinity bottles. Maybe the second I don't know. 44:59 But it's 45:00 Really funny geeky stories plus experiments you can do from home blends. 45:08 Like you know, Travis hills. 45:11 The four roses thing Yeah, barrel proof yellow label. Yeah, really fun. you acquire every single four roses and make a barrel proof yellow label. And we did that and he also tried to do creating his own Moray mirages or marriages or whatever they're called, looking all the small batch limited edition selects and then actually trying to go and find those exact age ranges and try to do the race and ages and stuff. Yeah, I wrote about Yeah, I wrote a punch article about that too. 45:41 Where Blake mentions that he likes to Vitamix his blends because he puts them together and people were furious about that. 45:47 But yeah, there's fun experiments fat washing which is infusing you know, meats and butters and stuff into whiskey for cocktail, smoking cocktails. 45:57 Making foods out of whiskey. It's it's a very fun book. If you're 46:00 stuck inside with nothing to do except a lot of whiskey and how am I going to use this for everything I'm going to do for the next 90 days? A lot of fun experiments. There you go find it on Amazon I'm guessing Yes. Like everything else and they're still delivering so you don't have an excuse go by hacking with order it right now. It'll be there tomorrow. Well, you know, Aaron, I want to know like I said, this is a really good opportunity to kind of catch up talk about more I guess more about you your writing career and as well as just talk about whiskey in general, and kind of get an update on what's happening instead in New York. So it's been a pleasure getting to talk to you this time. It was fun. We didn't have any kids run in and yell at me. 46:40 Technically, I could hurt I hurt I hurt him a little bit the background so yeah, I mean, we'll we'll clean it a little bit and post but yeah, it turned out I think the biggest technical difficulties my quarantine beard. 46:53 are you growing it out until you until you can walk outside and and shake hands with somebody again? Or until my wife divorces me? 47:01 Whichever one comes first. No a day for whichever one comes first. There you go keep that razor handy though. Yeah. 47:10 Well Aaron, that was awesome talking to you. If anybody like wants to get in contact you or wants to, you know follow you on social media how they gonna do that? 47:20 If they want to yell offensive things at me Twitter's fine at Aaron Goldfarb, 47:25 also at Aaron Goldfarb and Instagram. 47:29 And you can probably figure out my email address too if you want to send me crazy tips about blends you're making or weirdo stuff going on in the secondary market that I can turn into a story and get everyone mad at me for ruining bourbon. I guess it's another thing is like, do you actually search Instagram to be like, Oh, that's interesting. Like I could write an article about that. Like, is that are there ideas that pop up like that? Yeah, like like most human beings on planet earth when I have nothing to do, I'm looking down at my phone looking at Instagram, not necessarily whiskey stores. 48:00 But there's just so many bottles out there and things so quickly become hot. You're like why is this cool guy making a big deal about something that what is this? 48:13 And I usually as Derek I say what is it? 48:17 You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you see weird stuff on Instagram and you file it away I usually screenshot it 48:25 to pay attention to it because I'm usually looking at Instagram late at night after a few and the next day go Is that something and you know if you see it happen a few more times. Okay, now you got a trend. Let's follow this. See what's going on. But yeah, yeah, that's a good place to find stories. See if you can get inspiration from anywhere then. Anywhere just when you're in the house, the only place you can get inspiration from is your phone. 48:46 Awesome. So Aaron, thank you again for coming on the show is a pleasure to have you. Make sure you go you follow Aaron on other social media channels. You can follow bourbon pursuit as well. And we'll see you next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Damian Donoghue from SuperHealth joins Mason on the podcast today to discuss and the health implications of the 5G network. Damian is extremely well read in the areas of health, wellness, detoxification and environmental pollutants and has a keen interest in finding solutions against harmful EMF exposure. Tune in for a wildly interesting and eye opening chat. Mason and Damo discuss: The 5G network, what is it? The cellular harm 5G can cause and the strategies we can embody to cultivate resilience against it. The ins and outs of non native EMF exposure. Environmental awareness and community based action as drivers for change. Building biology as a preventative tool. The actions steps you can take to reduce 5G paranoia and anxiety. The importance of distance when protecting against 5G frequencies. Using the pineal gland as a navigational tool. Heavy metal exposure. Data collection and advertising. The importance of detoxication and forest bathing. Health sovereignty and cultivating Qi. Simple tips for blocking non native EMF's and blue light in your home. Melatonin and it's role within the body. Damian's favourite supplements and lifestyle practices for full body protection and potentiation.   Who is Damian Donoghue ? Damian has been researching natural ways to heal the body for the last 20 years. After healing himself of an 8 year bout of chronic fatigue, Damian set out to empower others to reach a peak state of health and wellbeing. Damian loves helping people to optimise their health by flooding the body with nutrition from superfoods and tonic herbs and teaching effective detox strategies for removing heavy metals and toxic chemicals. One of Damian's main areas of focus is helping people to protect themselves from the constant onslaught of the health depleting microwave radiation being emitted from all of our wireless technologies like smart phones, smart meters, WiFi and 5G. Damian is extremely passionate about life and helping others and is a proud health crusader fighting for humanity.   Resources: Damian's Website Damian's Facebook Damian's Instagram Damian's Youtube SuperHealth EMF Protection Pack - 15% Off Discount Code - SF15 Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt Website Iris Blue Light Screen Filter Ra Optics Blue Blocking Glasses How To Block Blue Blue From Your Phone Screen Video 5G Apocalypse Documentary Barrie Trower Ex Royal Navy Microwave Weapons Expert EMF Bed Canopies Ken Rohla - Staying Healthy with 5G Wireless and the Internet of Things, EMF Protection Dr Deitrich Klinghardt – Pineal gland, 5G, Aluminium, Glyphosate, Fluoride and WiFi Dr Mercola's Interviews with Dr Deitrich Klinghardt About EMF's Dr Katherine Horton Speaking About Eye implants, 5G and Depopulation Plan By The Shadow Government   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify! We got you covered on all bases ;P   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason:   (00:00) All right Damo, let's do it man. So first time on the pod, it's been about, I think it's been like just under 10 years since I met you, Randwick race course when you were doing extreme superfoods. "All the extreme." I remember you saying when you changed over to SuperHealth you were like, "Man, it's too extreme."   Damian:  (00:22) It's too extreme, it's way too extreme.   Mason:   (00:25) That was so good because it goes like that Kirlian electromagnetic ball. Just that Qi, like it was the Dougan, like the style that would suit... Extreme superfoods. ... I've got a bunch of your stuff back in those days and you got me onto the marine phytoplankton and the hydrogens right there back in the day. So man, it's good to be on here chatting now.   Damian:  (00:52) Yeah. Thanks buddy. A pleasure to be here. Hey.   Mason:  (00:55) Yeah man. ... So you're over in your place in Perth, we tuned in a little bit, but for everyone, you rock SuperHealth from there. What else are you up to at the moment?   Damian:   (01:07) So about to release a new range of products. So they've been sitting about eight years now. My product range. So it's been time for a revamp, which I'm super excited about. So they're coming out really soon. But yeah, just really focusing on education, especially the topic we're going to talk about today, is just getting people aware on microwave radiation coming from all our wireless technology. It's probably one of my biggest areas now, more passionate areas because I really just want to educate people and get people switched on and what can we do in this environment now? So that's probably one of my bigger messages at this point of time.   Mason:  (01:46) Well, I mean I'm stoked to talk to you about it. Because you're well read on it, but I like talking to you about these things because you got a real good outlook on life. You've got a real positive... through all the deep dives into all the ways we've been poisoned and microwaved in our environment. For those of you who are on the audio, the smile's beaming right now, which is on the video... But it's important, because it can be such a deep dark space and I don't know, some people might not have been in this world. Maybe Super Feast podcast is maybe the place you like learning about some of the.. The drawbacks and the microwave stuff.   Mason:  (02:26) But most people listening have either been down the rabbit hole themselves or know someone that's formed a bit of a dark outlook on life in terms of just being exacerbated by and just overwhelmed by everything that's been thrown at us. So yeah man, I'm super keen because you're super proactive on what we can do about it as well. So let's dive in because it's been a while you've been talking about it, you got and others great Facebook lives about what to do when you're traveling with the wifi and having the building biologist over to your house. So can you just talk to me about when you started tuning into all this and why it's driving your education platform at the moment?   Damian:  (03:08) For sure. So I think it's very much what you said. You go down these deep dark holes of reality or what a lot call conspiracy and yeah, I just find someone's got to digest this stuff and then someone's got to regurgitate it to the people in a format that they can accept and deal with because as you know, the darker and deeper you go in these holes, the more you uncover and the reality of it all is we're under attack from our environment, from the world we're in. And so really now how do we get strong in that environment? So I think for me, I've studied health for so long and it was all about putting clean food in my mouth. Is it organic food? Am I drinking clean water?   Damian:  (03:56) And we're doing all these things putting through our mouth. But what about the stuff we can't see? And that's what really started to interest me because you've got people coming to... Like yourself, we've got people coming to us all the time with health problems. But it's like, is it just the water? Is it just the food? Is it just the chemicals they're exposed to? And I really understand that now. It's not. It's a lot to do with the frequencies that we're bathing in daily. And the more I looked into wifi back in the day before 5G came out, I just realised we were bathing in a frequency that is harmful to human health. It's harmful to all life. And then the 5G started coming on the scene the last two years and I dug deeper and deeper and it all seemed like a conspiracy theory. It's like, 5G is going to be coming out, microwaving us all."   Damian:  (04:50) And yeah, it was something that you think you'd read about on the internet for many years, but now they're rolling this out. And that's why now I really want to focus on what can we do about it? How can we avoid it? How can we protect ourselves? And my biggest message today about 5G is not just getting into a state of fear and going, "Oh my God, these things are harming us. What are we going to do?" And people become helpless and fearful. It's not about that. It's basically diagnosing and acknowledging who is our enemy? What is the enemy? And how can we avoid it? What can we do to protect ourselves? How can we be proactive and take those action steps to either stop 5G, stop the rollout or protect ourselves in a 5G world. And so that'd be my biggest message today is, how can we be proactive about it?   Mason:  (05:46) When you tuned in, what was it about 5G and in its detrimental effect, what was it specifically that got your interest?   Damian:  (05:56) I think it was just after suffering with ill health myself. Whatever it was, 10 years go now, 15 years ago.. When I started experiencing chronic fatigue. And it was that having your health taken away from you, you never want to go back there and you do everything you can to stay healthy and be vibrant and to even think that there's a frequency, something we can't smell, taste or see in our environment that's taxing me, taking me back to that state of fatigue or depletion in my body. But that really interested me. And that's when I started reading more and more and realised, "Hold on, this silent frequency that we can't smell, taste or see is there taxing our body." And it was that, it was the realisation of it's not just food and water now, it's, could be the device that I'm holding texting every day. It could be that that's actually taxing my body. So it was wanting to know what can we do about that?   Mason:  (06:54) How was it taxing the body did you find? Or will it be taxing the body?   Damian:  (06:59) Yeah, so disturbing your cell metabolism basically. So all your cellular functions in the body are disturbed by these frequencies. So what they're doing is keeping us in a state of fight and flight. Now I'm talking about EMF or electromagnetic fields, but specifically non-native EMF because people say, "Oh, there's EMF coming from the sun, the earth's got EMF coming off it all of the time." Well, yes it does, but we're not focusing on that, we're focusing on non-native EMF. Not native to this earth, which is manmade technology that's emitting these things. And so it was the disturbances it was having on our fertility, the way our energy is produced on the mitochondria in the cell. So it was all of these disturbances coming from the frequencies that were really interesting me more and more.   Mason:  (07:52) Because we're at that point, it was an interesting one for me this year because I've had mates like yourself who have been onto the 5G. A few years ago, I've had other friends, real mates more on an esoteric kind of space, again for years and years training people how to acknowledge that there is this entity that's going to be entering into our sphere and how do we disassociate somewhat spiritually with this entity and not allow that unwanted relationship to come in. But then, the world didn't really click onto it so much. The majority haven't really clicked onto it so much. And it was probably three months ago when we saw everyone really jumping onto this bandwagon, which was amazing because this rush came. I had this really mixed reaction to it for some reason because from the start of the year, I remember seeing a photo of a football field at the start of the year in February and it had Telstra 5G on it.   Mason:  (08:52) And that didn't get people's alarm bells going. Maybe the front runners, people who are breaking the ice, but the level of outrage warranted when you look into a little bit of the data. Which is still... The data is still getting verified, but I know there's a lot of very legitimate studies occurring and then maybe you can help me pull up a bunch and we'll put them in the show notes as well so everyone can just calmly go in and just check through this stuff and make sure we all get informed of what's going on. Outside of it, for or against kind of model.   Mason:  (09:31) It annoyed me the level of emotion and fear and outrage that came at such a late stage when everyone had so much of an opportunity to realise years ago that this was coming. I feel what I got was a lot of people... and you know this is me as well in certain instances. I'm not pointing the finger. We need to acknowledge that you're not awake and aware of the changes and the things that are going on in your environment. You need to be vigilant. And if you're late, and you're too late, maybe cop some of the responsibility that, "Shit maybe we're not going to be able to change or stop the rollout as much as we could have, if we'd got in way earlier." So it was just a wake up call, but as a community we need to be really switched on at these legislative stages of these projects. I don't know what it was like for you up there, whether it was out in the west, if it was the same, like three or four months ago that everyone became aware for the first time and jumped onto it.   Damian:  (10:36) Well, I think you're exactly right Mase, yeah it was a real last minute explosion. And I really feel it's lack of information. People don't understand the severity of it, which is what I want to communicate today is this is really serious. And it's going to take all of us coming together, and it's not just protecting ourselves, it's standing up and going to the rallies, getting these letters into parliament and saying that we're not happy. Will they have any effect? Probably not. It's such a huge industry, $17 trillion industry, we're probably not going to have any effect. We're probably going to have to see a lot of people who suffer before there's big change and that's when we will all-   Mason:  (11:22) Yeah, maybe a couple of decades, few decades even. And we're talking about industries to be fair that I'm not allowing any information to come out. I think I'm talking more about just realising the level that we all need to step up on very individual levels.   Damian:  (11:43) And when you've got... I follow a gentleman called Barrie Trower and we'll put some links in below for your listeners. Barrie Trower was a Royal Navy microwave weapons expert. He specialised in directed energy weapons. Like looking at how can you target an enemy with one of these weapons and just listening to him, he goes through research paper after research paper of all the biological effects of 5G on our environment, on humans. And there's no testing being done, and that's the freaky bit. It's never been tested yet. Somehow it's still rolling out. These groups of scientists from 40 different countries around the world, leading scientists all saying, "No, this cannot happen. We can't allow this to happen." Yet It's still rolling out. So it tells you there's a lot of money involved. So-   Mason:  (12:37) Huge amounts of money. When you look at the opportunity here, and I definitely think there's... I think we've talked about this a lot. There's probably of course... There's always a particular percentage of psychopaths in the world and people that know these things, and how damaging these things are. And will go ahead if there's some kind of game, whether it's power, mostly power, fiscal or just egoic. But then there's like a lot of people who are in that undertow who just see the fact that this is going to connect the world in a way that it's never been. Something like 5G... That's basically every device is going to be connected. You will never ever not be able to instantly upload something. You're not going to have any drop offs.   Mason:  (13:18) And so you've got to remember there's a lot of... I don't know if ignorance is the right word, maybe, because you could say, "I'm ignorant to the possible benefits to humanity." So that's fair. But there's also a lot of ignorance in what this is going to do to the human body. And some people can only see that beautiful side of the coin, and then that's going to be very offensive if you bring up the fact that this grail for something that's going to revolutionise, in their world like the medical industry, you know, the way that you know, the, what, you know, like medicine, like the development of technologies to help humanity. That's kind of that shit that you can hide behind really, really easily here. And so I think it's always important on these ones to make sure you know what it's like, you've got to develop a lot of empathy when you're having these kinds of very tricky conversations eh.   Damian:  (14:10) Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I think you're hitting the nail on the head once again. So just open up. I'd love to just explain 5G, just as a brief. What is 5G? It's the fifth generation solar telecommunications. So we're familiar with 3G and often 4G because we see it on our phones. So anyone who's new to this, you'll see 4G often on your phone next to your reception bars. 4G was what was still current now, and has been for quite some time. And that's the cell towers that we see around the place they are sending out this 4G message. 5G is a whole new game. It's nothing like 3 and 4G, people think it's just another step up. But the deeper you dig, you will realise that it's not. And that's what I wanted to talk about in a moment. But what are they promising? Faster downloads like you said, you can go anywhere, faster downloads, driverless cars, smart homes, walking into your home, everything's intelligent, turns on, all voice activated, your washing machine finishes washing a load and the next thing a notice comes up on your TV screen saying your washing is finished. Or your toast is ready. I mean for God's sake. So these are all the major-   Mason:  (15:33) The other one that's coming is a fridge that can scan what's going in and out of the fridge at any time and develops a shopping list for you based on your input and recipes you want. All this shit that's like dancing towards the virtual reality realms.   Damian:  (15:52) Yes. And the whole toothbrush, where you're using electric toothbrush, it does an oral scan and sends the data back to your dentist, so your dentist calls you when you need to have your teeth checked. It's just crazy, and I don't know if you've seen the Samsung phone, I saw an ad for a long time back, but there's a lady laying there with her pregnant belly and she's holding the phone and it's like an ultrasound of the baby and she can see the baby. So she's using this microwave radiation to take a scan of her baby. And so this is the things that they're promising is all this fast technology that's going to speed things up and make things easier for us, so they say.   Mason:  (16:37) The Jetsons.   Damian:  (16:38) Yeah, definitely. But at what cost? And that's what this is all about, at what cost? So I just want to give a bit of a brief what the 5G world might look like. I've got some notes here of some things I really want to bring up because I really think we have to understand the severity of it and actually acknowledge that, "Oh my God, this is not just something that's going to wash over and we'll forget about it in five years. This is going to impact all of us. And if not us, it's definitely going to harm our children." The exposure to microwave radiation on a child, they're much more delicate than us. So what does it look like? 5G world? Well, 5G millimeter waves don't travel far, they say roughly about 350 meter radius from a transmitter. Now 4G can easily travel 10 kilometers and so it'll cover a big area. But what's happening with 5G, it's beam forming. So if you pick up a device, you're using your phone, instead of just being in this 4G frequency now, you're getting 5G beaming at you like a laser beam specifically at that device.   Damian:  (17:49) So it's very accurate on where it's sending its frequency. Now, because of the 350 meter radius, it doesn't go very far. It doesn't do the 10 kilometer coverage so they are going to need small cells everywhere. These small cell transmitters are going to be on lamppost. We've just seen some go up now in Subiaco near the city in Perth. Now what we're looking at is an LED streetlight, but on top is a little aerial. So this is how they're going to them in everywhere, is you get all new street lights, no one will know anything different, you've got bright LED streetlights, but on top there's a transmitter. And so all these transmitters are emitting a field and will be beaming lasers exactly at every device in that area and they're going to need millions of... There's not just one, two or 10 in a suburb, they're going to have them everywhere. And we're going to be saturated with this stuff. And so that's why I really think we've got to become aware of this so we know what to avoid.   Damian:  (18:55) Now the biggest thing with 5G, there is no safety test done, and that's the scary bit is they're rolling all this out and nothing's been tested for safety on human health. Not only is it harming human health, it's harming all living organisms, plants, trees, insects, animals, aquatic life, microbes in our soil. Now one of the biggest one is the bees. We're seeing it now, you see videos where near a 5G tower, there's bees being wiped out. They're dying, dropping off. Now if we lose our bees, we lose our food. We need the bees to pollinate our food so that we can have fruit and all of these veggies and what have you, all fertilizing and producing food for us. If we don't have bees, we have no food.   Mason:  (19:43) So, even without this massive rollout, I think it's been pretty widely proven now that there's a dramatic drop in insect populations all around the industrialised world. I'm going to throw this on top of it. And that's like... I was listening to actually a comedian''s podcasts, he sometimes brings up some of these issues this morning and they were just commenting on the fact, you know what the problem is with that boomer generation is that they just weren't quite educated about just very simple things like, "Oh the bug..." And this is a very big generalisation of course. But like, "Hey, the bug populations are dropping." And they're like, "Oh cool. That's convenient." They're like, "What are you talking about? This is something that we all learned in year five. That insects are important." And so that's for sure, been like there's this older generation that's just here and it's going like, "Look, it's not that big of a fucking deal guys. Just relax."   Damian:  (20:45) Yeah. And if we don't have these insects, we don't have food, right? It's just crazy. But the worst thing about the 5G and the 4G and all this microwave radiation is it's harmful to all living things except mold, fungus, bacteria, and parasites.   Mason:  (21:07) Where is that data? Is this independent research going on?   Damian:  (21:10) Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of information on that and Barry Trower talks all about that. So catch this, we've all been injected or a lot of us have been injected as a child with god knows what heavy metals and potentially retroviruses, and-   Mason:  (21:27) Even if people aren't tuned into that conversation, there's an accumulation of heavy metals as you move along through life anyway, just through life, living and breathing in our industrial world.   Damian:  (21:35) Yes. And so what they're saying now is these frequencies are going to wake up a lot of these dormant viruses and bring them to life and bacteria thrives in it. So a lot of these bad bacterias will multiply at such a rapid rate, they actually become antibiotic resistant in these fields.   Mason:  (21:56) Antiviral resistant?   Damian:  (21:58) Antibiotic resistance.   Mason:  (22:00) Oh you're talking about the bacterial infections being waken up? Yeah. Right. I thought we're still talking about the retroviruses, sorry.   Damian:  (22:07) Yeah. So they'll become super bugs and they're saying these retroviruses will wake up and start to thrive. Now, if you get mold near a wifi device, a router, and they've measured mold produces up to 600 times the biotoxins in a wifi field. So you think about it, we're seeing people come to us with gut problems, ill health. And they're living in a home with wifi. Now if they've got mold in their body, the mold is just flourishing. It's being potentiated by these fields. And that's the scary thing is, the parasites and molds and viruses, they all love it and they will thrive. And that's why we're going to see more and more of the Lyme's disease sweep through us.   Mason:  (22:50) Spirocetes yeah, because they're really stealth. They can just sit there dormant for decades until there's a little bit of a crack, right?   Damian:  (22:58) Yeah, so they're loving these frequencies and that's the scary thing. Now, the other scary thing is we can't measure it. Right now, a building biologist can come in our home and say, "Right, your phone, your wifi is producing a frequency at such a high level that's basically going to lead you towards being sterile, leukemia, different diseases." Now they can link to the amount of exposure. Even Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, I love him. He's amazing. I don't know if you've heard any of his talks, but-   Mason:  (23:30) I've only heard of him through you, when we spoke last time.   Damian:  (23:34) Yeah. German doctor and yeah, he's describing how basically he's gone into homes of women that have got children with autism and he's gone back to where they slept when they were pregnant. They had to go into homes that they've got new people living in them and they started taking measurements of where mum was sleeping. What they found with the mothers that had children with autism, the EMF exposure in that area where they slept was 20 times higher than someone who hasn't had a child with autism. And now definitively saying, he said, "It's definitive, we now can guarantee that if you've got this certain level of exposure of wifi and EMF, your child is going to become autistic," or stuff with autism or however you word that, which he said up to now they could never link it to heavy metals in the brain and all, they couldn't definitively link it, but he said with this measure of wifi, now they can say, "Yes it is." Without an ounce of doubt.   Mason:  (24:40) What's interesting there, because I'm sure... We'll get the links so people can go down that route and see that connection there. Because of course if you've got that... We can see now, like if these frequencies of interrupting our own indigenous frequencies and about, now if we're electrical beams and we have a collection of Qi and electromagnetic energy on our membranes and our mitochondria instead of producing this energy and how our vital organs have this combined collection of electromagnetic charge in different areas of each major organ. If you're going to throw a new aggressive frequency in there, it doesn't take a genius to know that there's maybe going to be a little bit of interaction there.   Mason:  (25:33) So the problem is then, that we're relying on people who are, some more credible than others but yet independent people to go and get this data because as you said, no one's testing this stuff. And then you get this back and forth debate, which can go on for a long time and people going, "Well that person didn't do this. It's not a true scientific method, that's anecdotal," and they pick a part. It's like, "Yeah, Yeah." Maybe, not all the time, but there's something there. So if there's something, why isn't that bringing up the hypothesis for us as a collection of humanity to then maybe go up and set these double blind placebo full down the line, "Here's the theory and with no bias," which that's not really possible as we know, physics tells us that you're going to have a personal bias on the outcome anyway.   Mason:  (26:32) That's what I feel like with these kinds of things it's like we got to keep the conversation going. ... Like is it all a distraction? Is this whole entire thing just made up by one party or another to distract us from one other big thing that's going on. Whether that be the people who are rolling out this technology or the people who are creating the hype and fear around it. It's just like, just shut up and get real and just keep on the cover, let's go back and forth and have a conversation because something's going on here eh?   Damian:  (27:04) Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, I agree. And-   Mason:  (27:07) Man, can you just go back and talk to us about what a building biologist is for people because that kind of industry, and Nicole Isma think is the woman who created building biology as an entire science. For me, it developed a lot of credibility for this whole thing. Because you've had quite a bit of experience with building biologists [crosstalk 00:27:30].   Damian:  (27:29) Yes. A building biologist will come into your home or your work space and they will bring in instruments like high-frequency meters that can measure non-native EMF. So electromagnetic fields coming from wireless technology, wifi, phones, earphones, smart TVs, all of these devices, they can measure it and they can tell you that this frequency is at a harmful level. They also can go in and teach you how to shield these frequencies. So if you've got a cell tower in the distance and you're living on a high rise apartment, and I have heard of this and your level with the cell tower, they're beaming it out, the frequencies, and it's smashing straight in through the windows and microwaving you. And they've taken measurements in situations like this and it's been horrific. The level of EMF coming in through the windows. So-   Mason:  (28:28) What you're saying ... Your subconscious programming go like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're hearing something like it's smashing through the window." No, this is a science now and this is the reality, this is happening. And then the next conversation is, is it detrimental? Well that's what everyone we're going down, that deep dive down from now, and if you talk to someone like a building biologist, they will show you some pretty impressive data. And educate you about how it's happening. Sorry, go on.   Damian:  (29:00) Definitely. And if anyone wants scientific documents on this, we can get all, we can dig all that out and put it in the links below. But they will diagnose the source, where it's coming from and then show you ways of shielding it. So it could be curtains that you're hanging that have got silver woven into them, which helps shield that window so you're not being hit. They may find you've got a smart meter and so it could be mounted on the wall of your house or outside the house. So they may put a metallic plate on the back of that wall and they may encase the meter in a metal box to stop those frequencies coming out and they will walk you through all different techniques of reducing that exposure.   Damian:  (29:44) Like my friend Ian, she helped me get wifi out of my home a few years ago and it was the best move I ever made. She went through and showed me, "Right, what we can do is put ethernet points in here. You can plug your devices in." All of my devices, my laptop right now, we're all plugged in. There's no wifi, there's no Bluetooth. And so they will help you design a safe home or a safer environment. But this is where the complications come in. The instruments that are required to measure the 5G frequencies, they can't be tested on these 2, 3, $4,000 meters.   Damian:  (30:22) You need a $250,000 meter and you need probably a degree behind you in that area of how to read these devices. And that's the biggest problem now. And that's really why I want us to talk about all of this because we can't measure it now. We can't say your kids, your family is at risk based on the small cells that are being put out on your lampost. We can't measure that now. Hopefully in the coming years, people will develop things that are much cheaper, but at this point of time we can't. So we're going blind into it. Before-   Mason:  (30:56) And even like a lot of building biologists, even the price of the instruments and just how... It's not a huge paying industry. They're not the most affluent.   Damian:  (31:08) No.   Mason:  (31:08) The biologists. They can't afford it. They can't afford these devices. ... That's not an official thing and I haven't studied the industry, but just from sniffing around.   Damian:  (31:22) Well that's right. And $250,000, I don't know what business could afford that for what you charge for a visit to a home. So yeah, they're very useful at helping diagnose and locate these harmful frequencies, but now things are going to get a lot different as 5G rolls out, the exposure to the millimeter waves and the biggest concern is we can't measure it now. So ultimately it's like we need distance between us and those transmitters. That's the biggest goal now.   Mason:  (31:56) In terms of like distance. If it's going to be a 350 meter radius, that's a difficult task. And we have people who are just not realistic of course, they're just going to be, now we're going to be like... I think about like my mum. There's just no way. She's in the city. How am I going to get her away from like... Someone who's got a permanent disability needing to be close to all those resources, so then we arrive at a crossroads. I think it's something that comes up and doesn't get spoken about much is when you go through these stages of going down the rabbit hole, I feel like people don't stop. You mentioned digesting before, you wanted to be someone to digest this and then share it. I really want to...   Mason:  (32:40) I think that's really good. That's a specific language because quite often when you go down this deep dive and you see people go towards paranoia a little bit quick, it's because they haven't stopped and actually digested. Whether digestion of what's going on looks like, "Hmm. Okay. That's the reality. That's really nice for me to understand that that's what's going on. And I think I'll make sure I get a little bit further in touch with my body, so that I can be aware." That might be one thing or it might be shamefulness or it might be this grief, for what was, or it might be just this other sadness. It might be anxiety.   Mason:  (33:25) Whatever it is. It's generally going to be something that's there anyway. It's like, we all have our own ways of dealing with that... We can keep on going down any route, but I would love to talk about what you're doing, whether it's getting yourself away from these, even having holidays away from this 5G network, which I really want to talk about forest bathing you're doing, because it's right. But even before we get to like, because that's step, that's what people try to, "Okay shit, there's all this bad stuff happening and it's going to destroy me and oh my God, my kids and what are we doing to the planet..."   Mason:  (34:01) It's like the global warming or the climate change anxiety that you see kids getting. What's that stage of digestion? This can be quite... I know this isn't so much of a solid conversation, might be a bit lofty to an extent or maybe psychological, but have you just got any recommendations for how you stay afloat and progressive even in those situations? How do you digest it?   Damian:  (34:28) So we get heading towards the action steps.   Mason:  (34:34) Yeah, first step of the action step in terms of actually digesting this. How do you... At a mindset level even, how do you stay positive with this?   Damian:  (34:44) Yeah, and I think it's not for everyone. The more you research all of these topics, the darker it gets. And I know that there's times I just need time out, and get out in the forest to clear my head. Ultimately, I know we're all here for a purpose and I'm pretty sure you and I are pretty solid on our purpose. You know what we're here to do, and I know for myself it's taking in all this stuff, but there's always solutions and I do want to mention one guy's name, which is Ken Roller. He's a great guy for people to follow because he talks about all this eerie stuff that goes very much into solutions.   Damian:  (35:21) There's always solutions and we've just got to stay focused on them. Taking the time out in nature for me is regrounding myself. You learn some new information and there's been some horrible stuff in the last two years I've uncovered, but it's taking time out to go clear your head and moving forward in a moment. Once we talk about some of these other steps, it's getting a clear mind, cleansing that pineal gland, so we can be divinely guided on how to protect ourselves. And ultimately that's how I do it, is learn about it, digest it, sit with it, when it gets all too much, get out in nature, clear your head, drink some water, get out in the sun, do those things and then come back to it and then basically work on a plan that people can apply to their lives.   Mason:  (36:12) Yeah. Nice. 100% man. And then I had to throw in for me getting right back into comedy. It was just a few years there when I went down the deep dive. I felt I'd lost a little bit of my own sense of humor and getting back that to jestery kind of feel, it brings a lighthearted reality into the fact that there is a bit of a cosmic joke to this whole thing anyway and the world's going to keep on ticking, no matter what. It's like this is really important to humans and we're doing some really bad shit to the earth. But you know, I was talking to Tahnee about it in terms of how much of a human centric view it is that we're destroying the planet and the planet just goes on... Even have millions and millions and millions of years.   Mason:  (36:58) It's just going to be like, "Oh gosh, what was that little spec? That back there that..." So that kind of... Definitely the comedy and taking that real macro view really helps me get some breath and yeah ageed. If you can connect back into the natural world, that is going to be the primary practice that fortifies you and the natural world includes love, loving connection, connection to your own spiritual self. These thing, and dancing in through the elements as a way of living. I think that's what we're going to be talking about now. That's what fortifies you, to an extent it's the beginning and then we've got lots of gadgets and shit as well.   Damian:  (37:43) And Mase, it was when you visited Perth last, when you came over that night and you arrived at that point of doom and gloom for me. And I was like, "Chem trails, this, that... And you were like, "Aah..." I could see you were like, "Far out this dude's way fought up in it all." But you've got to determine who the enemy is, what is the harmful... what is harming us? And that's my process. And I was digging in there and now I know that it's now we plan the steps. But the one thing you said to me that night, and it really motivated me, it actually become a type of some of the talks I did. You said, "Oh, aren't you interested in..." you used the word a moment ago, fortifying your body, like how do we build resilience? And that was your focus.   Damian:  (38:33) Because you're at that point where that's how you roll in your life right now. We are All still digesting all this. And I was like, "We've got to do this, and we're going to do that and this is happening..." But it was those words that you said... Isn't it important for us to look at how we can fortify our body? How do we build that resilience? And that led me into really delving into where we're going to go now with the conversation is, what can we do about it? What are the biggest things we can do to build that resilience to...   Damian:  (39:05) And like you and I have been teaching to our communities for the last eight, nine years, that super hero consciousness. We used to joke about being a superhero, but I feel now, now time to develop superhero consciousness is at an all time peak, this is where we've got to do it now. This is where we've got to step up and actually put the cape on and learn to fly. Because if we don't, we're going to melt. We've got to stand up and inspire others. And so, how do we become that superhero? Ultimately how do we do that? And I'd love to delve into that, now if you're ready, we'll start talking about some remedies and ways to protect...   Mason:  (39:50) Cape is on. I'm ready.   Damian:  (39:55) So number one thing to separate ourselves from 5G is distance. And this is going to be a hard one for a lot of people, but I want to put this as the biggest priority because if you have an opportunity to move away from city areas, populated areas is where the high density 5G is going to be. If you had that opportunity, I would say take it. And even if you don't think you have that opportunity, plant that seed now and plant that seed and water and water, because I've been watering for the last couple of years working out how I can get further away because it's the populated areas that we're going to see a lot of this 5G, intensity of the 5G. So distance is everything. People say, "Oh, if I use a blue a shield device, orgonite, this thing or stick on my phone, they're all great. But distance is number one. If you can get further away from the source of these frequencies, you are going to be safer.   Damian:  (40:53) So I just want to plant that seed and ultimately trees block 5G and this is why we're going to see more and more trees getting logged in city areas because the tree's will block that frequency and interfere with the effectiveness of 5G transferring information. So they're going to drop all the trees, which they're doing now, you can Google 5G trees getting cut down. So we know one thing is they block 5G. Now my whole life, I've never been that ocean person, I've been a tree person. And it all makes sense now, because being in the trees is going to be a lot safer place than being in the cement bound city area.   Damian:  (41:32) Now, not everyone can move, so let's have a look at some other areas, but please plant that seed for yourselves. Work out ways you can maybe get into a more rural location. They're talking about beaming 5G from satellites and when that day comes, there's going to be no safe place for us, but in the interim, let's do everything, fight back now and build the consciousness around each other. Because if we all come together, we're in here, we can take this down, 5G will fall. But, hopefully we can do it before there's too much damage done. So distance number one. Next thing is we need to tap into our inner intelligence, our divine guidance. How do we do that? Through the third eye, our pineal gland.   Damian:  (42:21) Now I remember someone saying to me, "When cyclone Tracey came through Darwin, there's two things you didn't see in Darwin. None of the native Aboriginal people and no animals. They were all gone." Now, you start thinking, "Well, why did they go and all the other white man, everyone else is just hanging around waiting for the cyclone?" Because the animals are tapped in with their pineal gland, their navigation gland. It's like a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear doesn't just hibernate because he thinks it's time. It's when he knows there's all of a sudden changes in the environment, he knows he's got enough food and then he gets the whisper from his pineal gland to say, "It's time to hibernate." Birds do the same, it's their navigation plan. And what they say is there's studies done that if your pineal gland is calcified, you will have a loss of sense of direction. That's interesting because this navigation gland in animals I truly believe is our navigation gland for ourselves and it gets us out of danger. So cyclone Tracy comes in, there's no Aboriginal people or no animals because they're all gone away now.   Damian:  (43:36) Their instinct has said, "Get away, get into safety." And that's what I believe we have to tap into now is tapping into that intuition, decalcify that gland and maximize its ability to guide us. Right now I'm guided to get away, get in a more rural area. That's what my heart is telling me every day. How do we do that with our pineal gland? Well, I'm sure you've got some good tips because we've been focusing on decalcifying the body for years. And we both have been around MSM for many years, so I'll just rattle off some things that you can add in on your day-to-day basis to help cleanse that gland. Because if your pineal gland is working, you have better sense of guidance and you will know what to do in times of need, like what we're heading into now.   Damian:  (44:23) So MSM, great for decalcifying the pineal gland. Boron. Iodine, super important to decalcify and remove the fluoride off your pineal gland. Lemon juice, the citric acid in there, cider vinegar. You've got the malic acid, they all help break up the calcification of the pineal blend. Tamarind fruit, you can have that in a paste or different preparations. That will help decalcify the pineal by removing fluoride off the gland. Getting out in nature, doing... I've started doing a lot more of the Joe Dispenza's listening to his talks and it's all about activating that pineal gland.   Mason:  (45:02) I've never done any Joe Dispenza stuff, but I feel like I've known so many people and gone over it and done his work in Mexico and doing these meditations. I feel like I have.   Damian:  (45:11) I had so many friends talk about him and it's only been the last three months I actually sat down and listened to some of his stuff and I was like, "Oh my God. Well this guy, he's onto it."   Mason:  (45:24) And then, I've got to get back into this. I'll get back to the third eye conversation at some point. I started going down this trippy thing around... Like when you look at the MRI, when you look at the scans and you see that it's just they're the pineal glands, like the soul. That's what they use to test, to really gauge a lot of the time whether there's a brain tumor. I think, I heard that. And that makes sense if it's off center. But it started tripping me out at one point, that level of localised calcification. I started being like how, "How? How the hell can it be that localised?" And so I haven't fall on either side of the fence of whether I think... Because I think our whole environment is like halogen fluoride that goes in and takes in receptors of iodine, which we know is one of the healthiest things possible.   Mason:  (46:17) All these things are going to contribute. This is just a little fire side like note... But how can it be an endogenous... Maybe it's an endogenous calcification, so, are things entering into our body that is forcing our own biology to calcify that kind of localised gland there or is it somehow... I just don't see how toxicity could be, like that's the only thing in that brain tissue that can actually be grabbed onto. But anyway, as you said, I need to dive back into it because it's been years since I've really gone down that rabbit hole. I'm looking forward to doing that actually, but as you said, decalcification is going to be a key thing anyway, like the MSM, the Boron, citric acid, tamarind paste is such a delicious addition anyway, I can get into it... I can definitely not need anymore excuse to get stuck into that but that decalcification process, where you were talking about going away.   Mason:  (47:18) I think we're going to go into it and talking about other things that you do for your body to take you away from the susceptibility that you have to these frequencies which are going to be frequencies that are going to take you towards the earth faster for composting basically right, get you in the death span quicker. And anything that's going to make you less susceptible to that gravitational pull and that slowing down and gumming you up is going to be something like it's a step in the fortification step in the right direction. So there's all these things you're talking about. We're working on joints, arteries, capillaries, all over the entire body.   Damian:  (47:53) Yes. Most definitely. And another thing around the pineal gland, I love Dietrich Klinghardt's work. He talks about-   Mason:  (48:03) Who?   Damian:  (48:05) Dietrich Klinghardt. He talks about glyphosate actually chelates with the aluminum in our body. From, he says it's all from the aerial spraying of aluminum for geoengineering. And it chelates with the aluminum and carries it straight to the pineal and he goes into depth about that. So that's something else we can share.   Mason:  (48:26) Does he?   Damian:  (48:27) Yeah.   Mason:  (48:28) Yeah, share that with me, because the pathways fascinate me so much. Possible pathways. I don't know what they are yet.   Damian:  (48:34) Yeah. So cleaning in that air I think is utmost importance just for our inner guidance. And so we know what to do. As you know, as we've got healthier and healthier over years, you know what herb you need, you know that you need to go to a sauna or you know if you need to go out in the bush. And it's following that instinct. Super important to follow that instinct and trust your heart, listen to that gut feeling. But now the biggest area I think we have to move in is heavy metal cleansing because like you said, it's environmental poisons, car fumes, injections going to the body, foods we're eating, there's all kinds of heavy metals accumulating. Now you've got to think about the TV aerial on your roof. What's it made out? Aluminum.   Damian:  (49:22) What does it do? Receives these frequencies and then transmits them down into your TV and turns it into a picture? Well, the more heavy metals that accumulate within us, the more we become an aerial. And this is what we don't want to be. We don't want to be an antenna. So reducing our heavy metal load is super important. And if you watch that documentary, the 5G apocalypse, they talk about that they, they talk about the accumulation of heavy metals and spraying of the skies is all part of 5G because it's also 5G's surveillance. They can actually see what's going on in everyone's home with all these devices.   Damian:  (50:03) It's data harvesting, all this information, but if you're full of heavy metals, you're going to show up in a 5G grid wherever you are. And people say, "Oh, why would they want to surveil us?" Well they do, they want to keep us in control because we're waking up, we're becoming conscious, we're realising that, "Hey, things aren't right in this world. We've got to make change." So they don't want us doing that. And when people say they will... The elites of this earth, whoever's got the most money, this is obviously one of their goals. So being heavy metal toxic is going to make you more conductive of these frequencies. So how do-   Mason:  (50:41) And about that, like that last scene of The Dark Knight where Batman's going after the Joker and he uses that full cell... That device like Morgan Freeman's like you can't use this, I'll quit, and he uses the cell phones to scan and he can see every single human in the entire city and... And I'm like, and at the end of it, he just like Morgan Freeman s the head of this multibillion dollar company but has the ethics to actually destroy it afterwards. I'm like, "Yeah guys. Morgan Freeman isn't running these companies in real life. They want it. They want the surveillance." As you said, that's data. It's not hard. What is the data for? Advertising.   Mason:  (51:24) It's not... Everyone's like, "Oh my God, I can't believe Facebook's harvesting data and then selling it to other people. That's such an intrusive..." Yeah, what did you expect? Why would this thing exist? How are they going to monetize it? And then once you stop monetizing and you get money invested, you have greedy people investing who want more money, how are you going to do it? You're going to keep on capitalizing on the number one thing, data on humans so you can psychologically either appeal to them or in a sinister sense, really twist them to make them want something that they didn't want before. It's not rocket science.   Damian:  (51:57) Yes, and I think you're dead on the nail again, Mase, that's exactly what's going on, it's companies want to know what we're doing at 5:00 PM, they want to know what we're doing at 7:00 AM. They want to know what we're consuming. What can they market to us next? I was looking for stock images on my computer yesterday, jump on Instagram today and stock images are rocking up. So it's interconnection of all of this data harvesting so they can market to us. I even have heard of 5G being used when you walk into a shopping center. They beam you with 5G and they can put suggestions in your mind with this technology. So you walk in, being you, all of a sudden you think that'd be a great dress over there to buy your wife or you need one of those new shavers. And there's been, Barry Trower talks about, there has been lawsuits against department stores that have used that technology.   Mason:  (52:53) Really? How does that work? I've got no idea, no concept how that could work. I know how crazy the world is. I know how crazy it is, but that's another level.   Damian:  (53:04) Well, he studied the spies in the cold war, he would take them and they'd use microwave directed energy weapons to basically manipulate people, get them to do things. He says basically within 36 hours he can have someone in their custody, they can have someone doing things that they would not normally ever do with microwave frequencies going into the brain that can actually change you and make you do things... They can make you hear things, all kinds of things. He talks all about that. But the department stores is one of the ones he explains and it's just fascinating that they can influence your decision making with this. But let's get back into the heavy metal cleansing. So what are we going to do about heavy metal cleansing? Charcoals, clays, great. But what I want people to understand is these binders passing through your gut are great, but they're only going to absorb heavy metals that are in the gut.   Damian:  (54:07) A lot of them for us are bound up in the brain. So we've got to look at ways of getting some of these metals out of the brain. And what I'm really getting into now is zeolite but not zeolites that we've always used. I'm looking at water soluble zeolites now, nano zeolites, which I did talk to you about when you visited last time. Zeolites that are super fine particles that can get across the blood brain barrier, go in, grab hold the heavy metals and carry them out of your system. Also, how do we squeeze ourselves? So Dr. Chris Shade is an expert on removing heavy metals from the body. And a lot of his detox protocols are squeezing yourselves, purging out the heavy metals, and then you've got them going to the bloodstream, the blood is then dropping it, filtering it out in the liver and it's dumping it into your GI tract when then the binders come through and collect them. And so it's strategies we've got to start to practice. Look at some of Dr. Chris Shade's work is Quicksilver scientific, he's got some great heavy metal cleanses...   Mason:  (55:14) What have you integrated in terms of like every day things that you you be doing to like to keep yourselves been squeezed out or maybe are you... I'm sure you have lots of everyday things you're doing, but then are you having pockets of heavier detoxes to keep you kind of rocking, maybe once a year or every quarter?   Damian:  (55:33) Exactly right. Yes. So you do, possibly it could be a four week process where you heavily purge the metals out of your cells, bind them up and eliminate them. And then we've got your everyday things, which is your charcoals, your clays, your nano zeolites. Another thing I'm using is an ion cleanse. Now there's lots of these cleansing units. You see them in in this shopping malls where the Chinese massage and you see people with their feet in these baths of water. A lot of those units are cheap battery chargers converted into an ion cleanse, but I've got a device that's called ion cleanse by AMD and it's about a $3,000 unit. But Dietrich Klinghardt talks all about this unit. He said, it's not what's going on in the water. It's not your feet being in the water and the ionization process and then toxins being released in the water. It's got nothing to do that. What he observed was for 72 hours after you'd had an iron cleanse, this specific unit, there was an elevation of heavy metals and toxins in your urine and your stools.   Mason:  (56:39) ... Like it was just mobilising heavy metal toxicity.   Damian:  (56:45) It was dropping your body into rest and digest, and the minute you go into rest and digest, all the pathways open. Now all this non-native EMF in our environment is keeping us in fight or flight. Fight or flight is designed for us to get out of danger real fast, we need to come into rest and digest. And so anything that brings you back in a rest and digest meditation, deep breathing, getting out in the forest, all of these things will activate that parasympathetic dominant nervous state. So you are now building that system that's calm and relaxed and you're opening up pathways to eliminate. So ion cleanse, I bought one myself just because I heard they'd reversed autism in a certain number of kids by just using the ion cleanse. And I was like, "Whoa! They're getting these heavy metals out of the kids' brains and that's why they're functioning better." So devices like that-   Mason:  (57:39) There must be some kind of other mechanism, unless it's a real heavy, therapeutic influence on taking the nervous system specifically into a parasympathetic state. Maybe, it must be working on some kind of level there. I don't know. I don't really get it but again, how many times do we come back to living life from, from a place where you were consistently resting and digesting? This is where it gets so hard when you're in the beginning of these stages of learning about this stuff because it's so hectic and sometimes people feel like they need to be like Cypher from Matrix and be asked to be plugged back in. I don't want to know this stuff but I can't forget it and now I just look around and... "Yeah, plug me in," and you see and then you think... And other people don't want to hear about it, "Oh my God, what are you talking about? How can you not listen to me?" You become that crazy person or that anxious person.   Mason:  (58:36) And that in itself is this cosmic giggle that you actually make yourself much more susceptible for having knowing rather than possibly, If you're not taking action steps for having not known. But that's where you need to rest and digest everything you're learning do everything you can to stay... I remember like, I think a few people who heard me talk about Wolfgang, Tanya and Wolfgang that live up in the hinterland. I think that 13 days into battling the fires, I think it's calming, it's calmed down the last two days. So like all the water prayers to them, but Tanya's like for permaculture, we loved going up there... Like springwater and Wolfie is as well... He's a German engineer and he's just... He's not onto us, the obsession we've had with supplements and cleansing. He's just so happy. He's just so relaxed, and we all know these people and we all look around and go, "Gosh, they're going to outlive all of us."   Mason:  (59:34) They just up that swagger. And even when they do know. And that's a great thing as well when you hear all these things to not get swept up straight away, because that's something I'm really aware when you and I have a conversation, that there's the extremes that people go like, "Pff! Get out of here. This is paranoid shit. Get out of here. ... How dare you put this kind of information out." And then the other extreme is like, "Oh my God," and gobbling it all up without running it through any kind of internal filter.   Mason:  (01:00:02) And that middle ground that I think we take for granted sometimes that people can say something and you run it through your internal filter and you can identify how much you're willing to take on at that moment and digest. You're not just going to be like a donkey being led by a carrot. You'll take on what's useful and maybe go do a little bit of your own research, so on and so forth. You manage yourself, right? It's something that's going to make you very successful in being a tripper like us. And I went down that route. So yeah man... In terms of practice, you've been running those forest bathing days. And just alone, is incredible.   Damian:  (01:00:48) So the inspiration probably originated from spending that week in the Byron hinterlands on Tanya and Wolfgang's property that you just spoke about. It was that week of not having any wifi, not having any technology going. Nature spoke to me and I really came home with a strong message that time it was, I just felt this sense of, "I've got to get back, I've got to build community and I've got to purify the people." That was just this message I had in my head. And it was that clarity being out on that land. I'd not experienced no wifi, I hadn't experienced no wifi for years and being out in nature then planted that seed for me. So as I got further and further into researching cannabis, as you know I'm a big fan of cannabis medicine and one of the biggest components of cannabis that makes it so medicinal is the terpenes.   Damian:  (01:01:44) It's the fragrant molecules in the herb. Now those fragrant molecules determine whether cannabis is going to make you feel sleepy and relaxed or make you feel energised and you want to go hiking. And so I become really fascinated with these fragrant molecules, the terpenes, and started researching them more and more. And then I looked into forest bathing, which was a Japanese practice, originated in the early '80s and what they were doing is sending their busy business people in the technological rich world, sending them out in nature to restore their vitality because they're all just being wiped out. And there was a few people that actually started doing science on it and the Japanese people spend a lot of money on researching the actual science of forest bathing.   Damian:  (01:02:33) And this is what they observed, if you got out in the forest for say half a day to a day, there was a profound change in your body. Stress hormones went down. Instantly the stress hormones were reduced and once the stress hormones went down, the natural killer cells, some of your white blood cells would be elevated. Now your natural killer cells are what we use to fight cancer. And what they found is not only did the killer cells go up, but depression melted away, anxiety melted away, confusion dropped away and people become more clear and more energised. And they observed, if you spent a day in the forest, you could go back to the city and you could get 30 days, like about a month of these benefits they observed, because they kept taking blood tests and observing the people and finding that their natural killer cells stay elevated, the depression stayed down and it was about a 30-day process that it hung around for.   Damian:  (01:03:37) And so my whole idea was forest bathing, is getting people out on a monthly basis, getting them off their devices. Now they go into the science of what's happening in the forest. Well, when you're in the forest, you're breathing in all the phytoncides. You know it's like when you're in the forest and you're hunting for medicinal mushrooms and you're looking for your reishi and stuff like that and it's almost like you're in that fairytale kingdom and the nature is talking to you. Well, a lot of that influence is happening from the fragrant molecules you're breathing in, the phytoncides, the terpenes. And you're out in pine forest or conifers and they're all rich in pineen. Pineen is what's known as the terpene that's rich in like your pine cones and pine needles, and it's very stimulating and uplifting. And that particular terpene, people would be familiar with the lemon, you scratch a lemon and you smell the limonene. Lemonade is very uplifting. You smell a lemon and it brings you to life.   Damian:  (01:04:38) Well, those fragrant molecules are out in the nature, we're submerging ourselves in a forest where the is no non-native EMF microwaving us. Our phones are off and all of a sudden you're breathing in deepering all of these fragrant molecules in and uplifting your state. And we have the most profound weekends now when we do the forest bathing, people come out of there totally rejuvenated. We walk into the forest, I do a little talk and then I give them all two hours to go and lay out, do whatever they want, they can journal, meditate. Most people go to sleep within 10, 20 minutes. You've got 80% of the people are asleep on the yoga mats. Everyone's so exhausted and they're so used to being in this fight or flight, you take them out there, deep breathing and then boom! Instant grounding.   Damian:  (01:05:26) And so, I think this is a big part of us dealing with this modern day world now is get out in nature at least once a month. Spend a day in the forest. If you can do

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about pirates and sadly, not those of the Caribbean variety.  The internet is littered with websites that sell (or claim to give away) pirated copies of books and addressing this situation can be a long and daunting process.  In this episode we talk about what kind of websites your book could end up on, what it is that the people that run them are after, and how to get your book taken down should pirates get ahold of it … this unfortunately involved a lot less of the ‘bribe them with rum’ tactic that we had hoped. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and if you’ve been spending your days in quarantine baking, tell us what you’ve made and stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Rekka (00:00): Welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. New Speaker (00:10): And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. New Speaker (00:13): So I know I've made a big Kaelyn. Kaelyn (00:17): Yeah, I mean I've done that for awhile, but, uh, is there any specific reason - Rekka (00:21): The day that I got the Google search term alert that my book had shown up on a pirate site, that's how I knew I'd made it. Kaelyn (00:28): It is a, it is a little bit of a marker in your career, isn't it? Rekka (00:32): Bingo square. I mean, like, it's not like I'm not gonna do anything about it, but, uh, you know, before I turn around and forward that email to my publisher and say, Hey, just so you know, please go take care of this. Um, I did bask in the having arrived-ness of that moment. Kaelyn (00:48): Yeah. It's, um, it's, you know, what did they say? SNL, Sesame street. Those are the big markers in your career. Rekka (00:54): I haven't made that one yet. I haven't done any of those pirated website, so I'm not, today we're talking about pirates, but not the awesome kind, not the kind in my books, the kind to take my books. Kaelyn (01:08): The kinds who take books and um, you know, put them on the website for all to, to read without paying for them, which as I think we've, you know, if you've listened to any of our previous episodes, we obviously come down very strongly against. Rekka (01:21): We don't like it . Kaelyn (01:29): Yeah. Kind of against that for various reasons. This was, a listener sent us this question, you know, asking about, um, pirates pirate websites, what you can do to prevent that from happening and what to do if it does happen. So, um, no, I think that's a pretty, there's a as much of a comprehensive walkthrough Rekka (01:38): Yeah. I mean, yeah, the problem itself is pretty simple. It's the solution that's kind of a bear. Yeah, exactly. Kaelyn (01:50): So anyway, uh, take a listen and um, as always, we hope you enjoy it Speaker 3 (02:08): [inaudible] Kaelyn (02:11): Well, I think we're getting this remote recoder thing, kind of uh, we're doing okay, right? Rekka (02:14): Hey, we're not coughing and we have no difficulty breathing, so it's a good song. We're a step ahead of a lot of other people at this point. Kaelyn (02:24): So, Hey everyone, uh, welcome back. We are, um, again recording remotely. Rekka (02:32): We are trying to uh, batch up some episodes. It's not that hopefully in the future you will say it, but the play gold meet lasted two weeks. Kaelyn (02:41): First of all, if it's a plague, it doesn't last two weeks. New Speaker (02:44): No, no, no. I'm sure it's fine. I'm in two weeks from now, we'll all be laughing about this. New Speaker (02:49): Um, by definition I think plagues must last longer than to be - New Speaker (02:54): Fine. You know, it never argue with an editor. They've got receipts in and the sources and stuff. Kaelyn (03:01): Well also when I was in grad school, I was a TA for a professor who specialized in history of medicine. So I had to TA a class, God, I think like three or four times. That was the history of plague and epidemic, Rekka (03:16): fFine, whatever. Or you're a semi expert on the subject. Kaelyn (03:19): Oh God, no, not at all. Rekka (03:21): We'll get out there and heal some people. If you're so smart. Kaelyn (03:22): We'll do. Okay. Rekka (03:26): Um, but anyway, yes. So we were, this is another one from the batch that we recorded, um, before my second surgery. So hopefully the world is a much better place as you're listening to this. Kaelyn (03:36): Well, the other side of this now. Yeah, but you know what doesn't make the world a good place? Rekka (03:42): Piracy. Kaelyn (03:43): Pirates. Rekka (03:44): See, I really subscribed to the romantic notion of pirates. I really want them to be good hearted people at their core that just work on the outside of regulation and law yet see that occasionally have like really exciting chase scenes with the law enforcement, but everyone ends up okay, Kaelyn (04:07): Well here's the thing about pirates Rekka and they're not really great people. Now don't get me wrong, in the early days of piracy, there was a lot to respected, possibly even admire. There was a, they were one of the first groups to have socialized medicine. Rekka (04:22): Right. Who were bringing it all the way back around. Kaelyn (04:27): And the concept of, um, worker's comp. If you were, uh, injured aboard a pirate ship and let's say you lost a hand, you were afforded a higher percentage of recovered booty. Rekka (04:38): Booty. Kaelyn (04:41): Now, that said pirates. Definitely were very into the pillaging, raping and maiming and above all stealing. Rekka (04:49): Yeah. Kaelyn (04:50): And in our modern day, that is what pirates continue to do now. So why are we talking about pirates? Well, this one actually comes from a listener who, uh, sent us a message and asked if we had any tips or tricks to dealing with people stealing your book. Pirates, putting it online without paying for it. Rekka (05:12): So obviously we're specifically talking about eBooks. Kaelyn (05:15): We are specifically talking about eBooks. If it would be really weird if they went out and bought physical copies of your book and then sold them online at that point, that just makes them a bookstore. Rekka (05:24): Right? So that makes them what a second hand bookstore. But no, you're right. So it's hard. The reason that, um, ebook piracy is so much stronger than print book piracy is because yes, those print books are, um, individual items that can only be resold or given away once. Um, yes, if they buy your book and then give it away physically, they are a library. If they buy your book and sell it, they are a bookstore and we like those people. We like both of those categories - Kaelyn (05:53): Those are great people. Rekka (05:54): Yes. But yeah, it's um, ebook, they get one file and they can give it away an unlimited number of times and that's a problem. Kaelyn, why is it a problem? Kaelyn (06:05): It's a problem because then you're not making money off the book. Now I'm going to head on - Rekka (06:09): Who's not making money off the book? Kaelyn (06:10): Everyone who was involved in the book that should be getting money from it is now not making money off the book. Right. Um, I'm going to head off this discussion right here by saying that there are a lot of people who will say that people who are going to go online and find pirated book versions of your book would not have bought it in the first place. Rekka (06:29): And this isn't actually 100% true. Kaelyn (06:32): It's not completely wrong. But yes, there is definitely a certain crowd of people that scour these websites, which by the way, we will not be naming any of them in this episode. The scour these websites, and that is how they consume books. They only get pirated copies online. And in those cases, yes, those people probably would not have bought the book no matter what. Um, that said there is a large segment as well that could go by the book and just wants to get it online for whatever reason. Rekka (07:04): Or just let, let me see if it's free first and then I'll buy it. Yeah, I'm using it as part of their budgeting system for their entertainment. Um, there is an anecdote, I don't recall who it was, but someone, an author, I think self-published uploaded their own book to a pirate site and inside it had the first two or three chapters and then at the end and explanation of why pirating costs that author their livelihood and a link to their website to go buy the book. Yeah. And apparently the response on the pirate site was, wow, that sucks. This book is really good. Now I have to go buy it and finish it. And a lot of them did. But chances are you aren't controlling this situation and someone else has uploaded a listing that matches your book's title and your author name. Kaelyn (07:58): So let's, as Rekka is kind of pointing to, let's talk about how and why your book may end up online. How's pretty easy? Somebody gets a hold of the digital file, assuming that they are able to get a hold of the digital file, puts it online for people to download. Who are these people and why are they doing this? Well, the answer is a pirates people who are trying to make money off of, um, giving your book away. Now, I'm saying giving your book away. But a lot of times that is not actually what's happening. And that is for one of two reasons. If you find that your book is showing up on a pirate website, there's a very good chance they don't actually have your book. New Speaker (08:39): Right. They are, they pulled some information off Amazon. Maybe they got a couple of the preview chapters off of there. They dump it in. And what they're actually trying to do is drive traffic to their website. Um, it could be primarily ad based, you know, some create websites that are just trying to get people to go there so that they can charge for ads. Right. Um, sometimes what they're trying to do is get you to sign up for a subscription for these supposedly free pirated books. Um, some of these are paid subscriptions. In some cases they just want your email address and information because that's also a very valuable market. Rekka (09:15): Yeah. They can sell that and they're not selling it to people who, um, who are going to do responsible things with that information. Kaelyn (09:22): Yeah. Conversely, if we go to even the further nefarious side of this, uh, they could say, okay, great, you signed up for free, here's the file, download it and that is a virus. Rekka (09:34): Yup. Kaelyn (09:35): Um, or that is some kind of, uh, key tracker or encryption breaker that is now going to take all of the information that it could possibly get from you. Rekka (09:45): I mean, I think it's a pretty reasonable piece of advice that if you're going to a website that is doing things that are unlawful, maybe don't trust downloads from that website. I mean, that's just me. Yeah. Kaelyn (09:57): That, um, that seems pretty sensible. Look at it this way. There is nobody out there who is going, you know what I really want to do? I want to give books away for free. I'm going to set up a website that is totally legit, completely above board where I'm going to steal people's books and put them on here so other people can read them. So the first that I'm going to set up a legit, totally above board website that steals books. Rekka (10:14): First of all, those two things don't happen in the same vacuum. Kaelyn (10:23): Yes, yes. And also some of you are going, wait a second, this sounds familiar. Yes, you're correct. That is called a library. Rekka (10:32): Yes. If you cannot afford to buy the book, go to the library instead. Here's a really, really, really, really cool fact. Libraries pay for the books that they buy. Yes, they do not return books, which is excellent for the author and the publisher also. Um, they have them in digital print and audio have available. So you can get the book in whatever format you want for free and you are actually supporting the author. Like if you, if you say, look, I really love this author. I read everything by them. I, you know, I hope they do well. I just can't afford books. Library. Please go to the library. Authors love it when they find out their books are in libraries and the library, if a book is popular, we'll buy multiple copies. Yup. It's amazing. It's almost like this is the way it was designed to work. Almost like the, I suppose the idea the whole time. Yeah. Oh yeah. So that is, that is the a hundred percent best alternative. If you meet a free book, absolutely. We support that. Go get it from the library please. Kaelyn (11:32): Yes. So all of them, uh, you know, just common sense. Should it imply here that any thing you're going to, to get something illegal could have some sketchy elements to it. And don't get me wrong, this is illegal. You are not, this is not something, you know, we're don't talking about books here that, um, you know, are part of the, uh, the common domain at this point. Rekka (11:54): But Kaelyn, information wants to be free. Kaelyn (11:58): This isn't information. Rekka (11:59): Right. This is IP. This is someone's property. Kaelyn (12:02): Yes. This is intellectual property. And you could say, I mean, now granted, you know, we both work in genre fiction. I'm talking, you know, we're not just talking about novels and uh, and fiction books. Um, you could say, well, somebody wrote this great book about how to, you know, build your own computer and I want to do that. Well, here's the thing. Somebody wrote that book and they did it for a reason. They put a lot of time and effort into it and the, there's no, you're not entitled to that person's knowledge and ability. Rekka (12:33): I mean, folks already complained that, you know, ebook prices cost so much and print book prices costs so much, but the fact is that it's still lower than the rate that they would give that book away if it was only being given away once. Like if an author wants to make a livable wage, they need all of the sales of the book at that price because the author doesn't even get a, you know, chunk of that. They get a sliver. Kaelyn (13:00): Well, and I'll take that a step further if you want to. You know, if you think the cost of a how-to book is too high, go take a class, see how much that costs. Hire somebody to come do it for you and see how much that costs. Rekka (13:13): Or buy a pre-made. Kaelyn (13:15): Yeah. These are people's skills and knowledge and intellect and time and time. They've worked hard to build and cultivate these things. This is a product the same way a farmer selling apples is selling a product, right? Um, so a lot of those lines up there is a very good chance that if you ever publish something, it is going to end up on a pirated website. And we at Parvus, I've had this happen a couple of times. The first time it happened we were almost a little happy. We were like, wow, we've made it on the map. Somebody actually stolen one of our books. Um, and then we were like, Oh crap, we better deal with that. So your book has shown up on a part at website. What do you do now? I am going to qualify this entire spiel of what is to come here. By saying that depending on aware the website is hosted in the world, I mean not just like, you know, what shady part of the internet. Rekka (14:14): Okay. Kaelyn (14:15): There may be very little you can do. Rekka (14:19): Right. Um, however, we are fortunate that a lot of, uh, cloud based servers and such are, are being used for hosting now and many of these are owned by corporations that will honor a take down request. Kaelyn (14:32): Yes. Now I'm going to use China as an example here because, uh, I then a cursory examination of this will show you that a lot of this comes up in China because, um, trade agreements and IP agreements and there's a lot of problems with China in general. Um, uh, reproducing. Yes. Things, let's call it that. Rekka (14:56): And I've run into this in the manufacturing world too. Kaelyn (14:58): Yes. Well that's what I was saying. Even in the manufacturing world, there is a lot of problems with dealing with things being stolen and remade in China and having no course to address this because China is not party to a lot of the international agreements that would give you recourse to address this. Rekka (15:19): Yup. Kaelyn (15:20): Um, okay, so that said, you find, you know, your book has shown up on an elicit website. The first thing that you can do is contact the website directly and just tell them, Hey, you've got this thing on here, this is mine. You've stolen it. Um, you know, if you're through a publisher, the publisher, you know, we've had to do this at our best, um, and demand, do they take it down? Okay. So then you're wrong. Well, how on earth do I, how do I do that? If a, you know, a lot of these, these kinds of websites aren't going to have the click here to contact us. Kaelyn (15:58): But, uh, so there's a great website out there called whois.com. Um, and what this is what this website is. It is just information about websites online and you can put in a website address and it's going to give you all of the information that it can about this particular website. Uh, the hosted platform, the domain, the registrar, everything. So the first thing you can do is go in and find the email address associated with the master account for the website and email them directly. Now who is, does do a thing where you can pay them to have that information, uh, privately blocked. And the reason for this is, you know, let's say like you've got a website and you don't want people to just be able to go find your email address in plastered everywhere. So it's gonna say something like privacy@gmail.com or privacy with some numbers at gmail.com. You can still email that what the address and it just redirects to the actual email address. The idea is just that you can't see it, Rekka (17:06): Right. So if you were trying to, um, you know, as an individual mask, as much of your private information as you can, when you register your domain name, it's cheaper to pay for a domain name privacy than it is to like register a PO box and have an address that isn't your home address and you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, this is a totally legit use of, um, privacy Kaelyn (17:31): I'd go so far as to recommend it setting up a, um, you know, an author website or something. It's probably not a bad thing to have. Um, okay. So, you know, people are probably at home scoffing going like, yeah, like they're gonna listen to that. Um, here's the thing. If what you're doing at that point is you're not really threatening them with legal action or you're not threatening them with the fact that they're giving away your book, you're threatening them with their website, you're threatening a business, a line of income at that point. Um, because, and the success rates here, you know, of course vary wildly, but one of the things you're doing is threatening their line of business. And how much of a response are you going to get for this? No way to know it. And again, a big part of this could depend on where this person is physically located in the world. Rekka (18:30): Yup. And if they're smart enough to make sure their host is also physically located there, um, you know, sometimes you're going to find these eBooks on legitimate bookstores. Like, um, people have found that their Kindle unlimited books show up in Apple books because someone has copied it and listed it for sale because they know that being a Kindle unlimited book, that authors not watching that book on Apple and then usually they find out because Kindle unlimited got mad at them and Amazon sent them a nasty note about it. So, um, when it's a legitimate ebook store, you're going to have a much easier time. But, but it's the pirating sites we're concerned about. Kaelyn (19:08): Yeah. Most of these are not legitimate sites. Um, so, all right, let's say you have not gotten a response back. You've threatened, you know, like whatever you need to throw in an order, you feel to get their attention. If they don't respond, the next step up now is to contact their hosting service. Now, as record said, a lot of places are cloud based. Now there's a lot of people who use hosting through Amazon or Google or any number of hosting platforms. Um, getting in touch with the hosting platform is going to have varying degrees of success. Um, part of it is that if they are using one of the larger hosting services, it's gonna probably take a while for someone to get around to looking at this. Um, conversely, if they have their own hosting set up, if this is a server that they've got set up, you know, in the back room at their house, and this is a 100% real thing that can happen. I mean, this is not hard to do at all. It's not expensive to go online, buy the necessary equipment and get it set up. It does not require a lot of overhead. It does not require a ton of power and you can keep a lot on those servers, especially when you're doing some, when you're talking about something like books, which are primarily text-based files. Rekka (20:29): Yep. A couple of megabytes each at the most Kaelyn (20:30): Maybe, if that. Rekka (20:31): Yeah. With pictures. Kaelyn (20:33): Yeah. With some pictures assuming that they have pictures because some of these, you know, Rekka (20:37): They'd probably strip a mountain, just deposit the text. Kaelyn (20:39): Yeah. This is where, you know, something else you would notice on a pirate sites is a lot of this is just a dump of plain, barely formatted into a document for you to download. Rekka (20:50): Yup. Kaelyn (20:51): Um, so if they are hosted through a major service or a cloud based service, you have some chance of getting some attention and some action there. Um, again, it could take a while and even then, depending on what it is, the hosted service may be somewhat limited in what it can do. So if that fails, the next question is, okay, what can I do after that? This is when you go to the registrar and you, um, Oh, registrar is a service that allows you to officially register your domain name. And these are, these services are actually regulated. Um, they're regulated by the internet corporation have assigned names and numbers and that is a long fancy way of saying that these are the people that give out IP addresses. Kaelyn (21:47): Um, these are the ones that when you know, for instance, when we went to get our website set up for, uh, this podcast, uh, WB cast.com we went through GoDaddy. GoDaddy is the registrar here. Um, they are regulated by an overseen by ICANN. This uh, internet corporation have assigned names and numbers, um, who oversees a lot of different registrars and make sure that they're keeping things above board and collecting all the right paperwork from the people who register and all that stuff and collecting the taxes. Exactly. The taxes and the fees are the real law. That's the good part there. Uh, now like you probably have heard about like, Oh, a is this domain name taken? You know how much you pay for these? The registrars are the ones that, um, like in the case of GoDaddy, they're notorious for buying, uh, domains and it's sitting on them and reselling them and uh, you know, that that's a legitimate thing you can do. Rekka (22:50): That's their business model. Yep. Kaelyn (22:52): Yeah. The next step up is to contact this registrar, um, and complained to them directly. In some cases you can call them and say, Hey, look at, you know, this, and if you're wondering again, how do I get this information and the hosted information for that matter, again, on who's who is.com, we'll have all of this in that search result. What you'd need to do at this point is to threaten or to actually file what's called a D M C a request the digital millennium copyright act. And what this is supposed to be doing is exactly what it sounds like. Something is violating my copyright of my book. This at this point is supposed to be a last resort and you need to that in any correspondence or conversations with the registrar at this point that you have tried everything else and you've exhausted all of your options. Kaelyn (23:56): You're now to the point that you have to go to the registrar to complain about this. Um, if you're to the point where you have to do this, you can find templates online suggesting you know, how to format this, what information to give them. And um, you know, how to direct this and who to direct it to. Um, Scribd has a good template for this. So there is one final, last step. It's not the same as actually getting this stuff scrubbed, but that has to go directly to the search engines to go to Google and to get them to do list. The search results. Do you list the search results? It's not making it. So the book is taken down, but it is making it so it is either harder or impossible to find. Right? So those are the stepwise parts here. Um, Rekka (24:51): And we'll link in the show notes. There's a really good article on the digital reader that covers a lot of this. And so we'll put those links in the show notes. We got a bunch of links for this episode. I'm just talking about the effect of piracy, the costs of piracy, that sort of thing. And um, and the, these are step-by-step you can follow along, um, in the digital reader's article, which is, which is really good. So, um, you know, you don't have to keep rewinding and writing down what she said, but, um, we always have transcripts too, but um, yeah, so it's, it's long, it's involved, but um, is it worth your time? Kaelyn (25:29): Well, you decide. Um, again, I will, I really want to emphasize that this is not an easy process. Even if the person is, let's say you're in America and this, uh, website is also hosted in America. It's still not an easy process to deal with all of this. Rekka (25:48): You got a D cross all your T's and dot all your I's to even get your email acknowledged. Kaelyn (25:53): Yeah. Now there, there used to be a service called Blasty. Do you remember Blasty, Rekka? Rekka (25:59): I've never heard of it. Kaelyn (26:00): Blasty was, um, it was, uh, I guess technically like a software bundle that you'd pay for and you'd put all the relevant information in and then it would basically do all of those steps for you. Rekka (26:13): Mmmhmm. Kaelyn (26:14): Uh, blasty does not exist anymore, unfortunately. Uh, they in last year had some very strange stuff happen with them. I still don't entirely understand. There was all of a sudden accusations of corruption and, uh, illicit payments being made and various things and then they just kind of disappeared. Their website is even gone. Um, which is a shame because it was kind of a good way to handle this if you were willing to pay for the service. Um - Rekka (26:41): Well there are services that will still handle sending your DMC notices. Kaelyn (26:46): Yes. Rekka (26:46): Um, they're going to be expensive, but it's because it's so tedious and because you have to stay on top of these things to make sure it actually gets handled. So, you know, if you're getting to the point where you really feel that the book sales that the piracy is costing, you are worth paying for a service to handle this. Um, which is not going to be until people know who you are to be looking for you anyway. Because what happens is these pirate sites, they pirate your books because they know that people are searching for your name and your title. Kaelyn (27:16): Yes. But in some cases, um, it's a, it's a volume game with them. Uh, they're gonna throw as many books as they can get their hands on onto one of these sites. Um, the, again, just if you're ever considering looking at or going to one of these websites, first of all, don't, but second, think about the people sitting on the other side of this. They are not doing this out of the goodness of their heart. Yes. Um, Rekka (27:47): they're not doing it because due to unforeseen circumstances, they could not complete their library degree. Kaelyn (27:52): Yeah. They're actually, what did that be? Something. Rekka (27:57): These are all rogue library scientists that just couldn't finish. And - Kaelyn (28:01): I was unfairly kicked out of life, my librarian program for giving away too many books. Rekka (28:07): I gave away too many books if they didn't like it. Kaelyn (28:09): So now I'm on the other side of the law. I will never stop, be stopped from giving away books. Um, there was a story. Um, but the people who are doing this are not doing it because they are rogue librarians out there giving away books and stories and information because they love to, they have ulterior and often to furious motives at best. They either want you to want to get your email and information or they want you to click on pages so they can make money from the website. That is the best case scenario Rekka (28:47): Yeah, that that's the least harmful case. Yes, it gets worse from there. Kaelyn (28:51): It gets worse. And I mean, viruses, identity theft, they are absolutely selling your information. Don't delude yourself into thinking they're not. So stay away from these websites for a lot of reasons. One - Rekka (29:07): Because you're a good person and you want to support authors and publishers Kaelyn (29:11): Yeah, because they suck and the people that run them suck. And you should not be stealing people's work and putting it out there for the world without them being properly compensated for it. If you want books and you cannot afford them request them from your library also, there's this great thing you can do with a Kindle and eBooks. You can share them. Rekka (29:31): Yup. Some of them to front some of them. Kaelyn (29:33): Yes. But like sometimes you can, you can loan them to friends. Um, there are other ways of getting these that are not jeopardizing not only the writer's livelihood, but also their ability to produce and create in the future. Rekka (29:50): Yep. And I will say for, you know, there are areas where it might be like distant from a good library or something. All you need is a membership to a library. And usually the only thing you need for membership to library is to be a resident of the same state. So if you can sign up for a library in your state, even if you can't walk in because it's not that close, once you have that membership, you can take it to I think, Libby or overdrive. And um, that's how you get the eBooks. And I mean, your library might have their own service, but basically it's usually Libby or Overdrive and then you can search under, you know, quote unquote under your library for the books you want. But it's coming from a large pool of books that are out there. And sometimes they're all checked out because that's how libraries work. But you can just get in line for that book and you can read it and when it comes available. Yep. Kaelyn (30:39): So that's, uh, that's kind of the, the story with pirates. Um, unfortunately they are not all ambling around doing bad Keith Richards impressions wearing a lot of very heavy eyeliner. I hey, don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. Rekka (30:59): Um, yeah, I prefer the black sails. Uh, pirates these days, even though pirates of the Caribbean did inspire my novel trilogy. I will say that, uh, the black sails series, if you haven't watched that, go watch that. If you want, if you want to get involved with pirates, go watch that. Um, leave the pirate sites alone. Um, yeah, I will say, you know, you have some hope if you find your book on a legitimate site or a site with a legitimate host. Um, there has been some advice in the, and Kaelyn, you know, alluded to this at the very beginning of the episode, um, in the self publishing community that says, um, Hey, these were never your, uh, your readers anyway. Don't worry about it. Just be happy that your book is out there getting exposure. Um, I disagree with that. Um, I think self publishing authors are probably going to start disagreeing with that too now that it's getting more competitive and um, it's not quite the, you know, boom days that it used to be. So, um, I think it's worth your time to try and get them removed. Um, it's also legally a good thing to be doing to defend your copyrights. Yeah. Because if you don't defend your copyrights, then you know, the law sees, starts to see things differently than you might imagine they would. Kaelyn (32:19): There is, um, you know, the, and this is very subjective what I'm about to say. Uh, there is the case to be made that let's say down the line, you do actually end up in court over something, be it related to this or not. And the question comes up, well, you saw that people were this stuff before, didn't you? Well, why, why is it bothering you now? Why didn't it bother you then? Right now that said, this is a very time consuming and often mentally draining process. Um, so the, it is completely understandable to throw your hands up in the air and say, I just don't want to deal with this right now. Rekka (33:01): So you might be wondering, Oh my God, is my book already out on pirate sites and Oh my God, do I have to spend every morning crawling pirate sites in order to see if my book has popped up? Because what will happen is if you have a like peer-to-peer piracy site, they might take it down one day and then five minutes later or the next day or a week later, it's back up. So how do you know, um, some of them are behind a paywall, like we mentioned some of these pirate sites or subscriptions. So the only way to know what's in their data bank is unless they make the DataBank public, but you can't download unless you logged in. Um, the only way to know it would be to pay and it's, you're not going to do that. You don't want to support that. Um, but what I do, and I know Parvus does for their authors is set up a Google search term alert. So just put your author name in and your titles of your books and then you get an email. Kaelyn (33:51): We keep the Google search term alerts for numerous reasons. Basically, you know, we - Rekka (33:56): And sometimes that's how you find up the find out that a review is posted. You know, Kaelyn (34:01): you know, if Rekka's name suddenly starts popping up in conjunction with, um, you know, things like police arrested, Rekka (34:08): Hey, now she's not a lot of faith in me. I just learned this is a, um, this is a moment, hang on, I gotta I gotta recover from this. Kaelyn (34:19): It's okay. They have a Google news alert set up for me too. I'm really the one that they're waiting for - Rekka (34:22): Yeah, you're the one that's going to get in trouble first. Kaelyn (34:25): It's associated with a terms like "bizarre incident" and "neighbors say" Rekka (34:30): And explicable. Kaelyn (34:33): Yeah, no, of all of the people associated with Parvus, I am far and away the one most likely to end up on the news. Rekka (34:39): Yeah. Kaelyn (34:43): The New York post. Rekka (34:45): But anyway, yeah, but so what I'm saying is, is set a Google search similar and forget it, you know, move on. And what's going to happen is you are going to get notifications of things like reviews and it's just as a quick aside, if it's a negative review, that doesn't mean you have to respond to it just because it came to your inbox through a Google search alert. You're just going to leave that - Kaelyn (35:06): Go back and listen to the reviews episode. Rekka (35:08): Don't do it. Just don't do that. But yeah, so that's a possibility with um, with those search term alerts. But they are good for helping you learn when someone has listed your book. Um, because pretty much that's the only way I learned since I'm not going to be found on a pirate site, even though I love pirates, but just not that kind. You were on a pirate site, huh? Thought some was on a pirate site. Yeah. Yeah. But I found out through the Google search term cause I wasn't good. No, I meant I personally, my personal habit not to spend any time downloading from pirate sites. Yes. Kaelyn (35:41): I was going to say flotsam was absolutely on a pirate site. That was one of our first real, uh, I was the one. You were the first one we found and then we found Vick's and, we, and we were like, I wonder what else is on here? Oh shit. Everything. And that's, you know, that's the thing is that so many books end up on these things. There are people whose jobs are only two. They just, this is their lives. They just scour websites, scrape the internet, try to come up with this stuff. I've put it on a website Rekka (36:14): Do you think when they were young and someone asks them what they want to be when they grow up, they thought I'm going to be part of the book protectorate. Kaelyn (36:21): Pirate. Rekka (36:23): Pirate? Kaelyn (36:23): No. What? They said - Rekka (36:25): They probably said pirate and now instead that they're they're calling and defense. No, I'm saying the person whose job it is, this is their career. Their paid position is to go in and send, take down notices. Kaelyn (36:37): I like, I like that. I always should get them a badge. Official book protector. Rekka (36:42): Yes. Member of the protector. It, yes. I like it. Yes. Um, okay. So uh, I think that Rekka (36:50): Hopefully that answers the question. I mean what do you do to prevent it? You don't, yeah, there's really nothing you can do because the Stephen King books are there. Like you can't be big enough to be too big for this. You can't be small enough to be too small for this. Kaelyn (37:04): No such thing as the size of an audience or the size of a publisher that is going to prevent this from happening. Right. So, um, uh, I think we mentioned it earlier, uh, Jason Kimball had, uh, sent us that question, so, you know, thanks Jason. We always like questions and answering them on this show. Um, if you have any questions that you'd like to send us, Rekka (37:27): You can send them to us @WMBcast on Twitter or Instagram through the DMS there. You can send a emailed questions to info@wmbcast and you can find us also on patreon.com/wmbcast and all of our back episodes are at wmbcast.com and we'd love to hear from you, even if you don't have a specific question or you just want to react to the episode or start up a chat with us, you can do that on Twitter. Probably is the best bot. And, um, if you do not want to engage with us, but you want to shout about us to the world, you can always share our, um, our episodes with a friend who might find them useful. And you could especially please leave a review or rating, especially a review on Apple podcasts. We love reviews, so that would be super helpful and help other people find us and love our show as much as you do. So thanks again for listening and we really appreciate you and we hope your books never show up on pirate sites.  

Now I'm sure the majority of us have watched a beer commercial, witnessed beer being consumed at events or even had a can or two ourselves from time to time. However, have you ever thought about what it actually takes to make the beverage? For Erick Worthington, this is what he lives on a daily basis and his love for beer prompted him to start his own brewing company, Monkey Tales. But like any business there are always legalities and procedures to abide by and he explains a lot of that in this latest episode. Aside from the serious nature of business, we had fun on this episode because Erick joined us for our first ever game of 'This or That' where two beers were named and he picked his favorite. Can you take a guess as to what it might be? Tune in to episode 8 for a start to finish explanation of what all goes into making beer and some of the terminology used in the industry. Erick even urges everyone to support local businesses in any form or fashion, especially Monkey Tales with the hopes of someday turning it into a household name. For more information on what Erick's brewing up in the lab or if you are a beer lover yourself, be sure to reach out to him: Instagram: monkey_tales_ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

James: Hi audience and listeners This is James Kandasamy from "Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast". Today we have Jim Maffuccio, who is co-founder and CIO of Aspen funds. Jim specializes in notes buying, which is a new topic for me. And I think for a lot of you, who has been following us on the commercial real estate aspect of the real estate business. Hey, Jim, welcome to the show. Jim: Hi, James, great to be here with you.  James: Good to have you here too. So, tell me about, let me make sure I understand notes, right. So, notes are basically that on real estate, right? It's not really the equity side of it, but the bad side of it, right. So, take it from there, tell us, tell our audience a little bit more about how does notes. like from people like you play a function in a real estate business?  Jim: Yeah, well, you know, almost all real estate transactions, and holdings involve debt. You know, a small percentage of properties are owned free and clear without debt, but most properties do have debt. Our focus, our business focus is on residential debt. So this would be, quite simply just the mortgage that people have on their homes, somebody owns that mortgage, somebody has that receivable. Those payments are being made to somebody, they're usually paid through a loan servicer. And the investor behind that servicer who actually owns the paper most people never know the names of but we are one of those entities that actually own the note. So, you know, there's two parties, well, basically two basic parties to a loan, there's the lender and there's the borrower or simply the lender, and we are not loan originators, we did not originate this paper, but we actually purchase, we purchased the banks position, if you will, the lenders position and you know, usually we have two different aspects to our business model. One is we buy non-performing loans. So, this is where a homeowner stops making payments on their mortgage. And the institution who owns that loan and the servicer who services that loan, throw their hands up and say, we don't know what to do it this. It's not our business model. We don't want to foreclose and take properties necessarily. So, this is real general, obviously, they do foreclose. So, we come behind and we purchase this loan, we purchased the put it so. So, if the loan balance is $100,000, let's say it's a first lien, we can purchase that loan for maybe $50,000, but the borrower still owes 100. So, now we go to work trying to get that borrower to resume making payments or we modify the loan to make an affordable payment for the borrower. And if the borrower can't or won't work with us, then we do exercise our rights against the collateral and we foreclose and that gives us the right to take the property, because the borrower hasn't met their obligation, that's really simple terms. So yeah, I'll just let you lead me with questions. James: I have a lot of questions based on how-- Jim: I bet.  James: So, let me understand. So, because I think a lot of people do not know this side of the business, it's very critical that I make sure everybody understand. So, if I buy a rental property, there's a lot of hard money lenders. And then I mean, this has nothing to do with hard money lenders, but I think this is the long term loan that Fannie and Freddie give to a servicer, right? And then, I mean you don't buy that kind of loans, I guess right? So, you don't get any more, I think you look for a bank, because, the bank right now, I think they want to clear their book because some of the loan is not really performing, they do not want to have in their books. Now, if they fit, they call Aspen funds and let them buy this right? And they sell it to you at deep discount, I guess.  Jim: That's right, we don't buy real hard money loans in general, we have done some of that, we've done some fix and flip lending on our income side of our business because we also have passive investment funds where we purchase re performing loans, where these are loans now that we're in trouble at one point in time in either ourselves or somebody else has done a workout with the borrower. Now the borrower is back on track making some sort of payments on that loan. And we actually have income funds where we buy those income streams and then pass the coupon payment off to our investors and we make a management fee for managing that work. We're consistently growing that portfolio, tomorrow it's the less active, it's the more passive model in our business but back on the other side, yeah, we're buying non-performing loans and we are buying mostly institution originated paper. So, as you said, James, it would be, you know, Wells Fargo, Citibank, Nation star, these would be the names of servicers, but it's this kind of paper off when our particular specialty and this is maybe going a little bit deeper into this than you care to, but we actually have been specialized in buying second mortgages or junior liens. So, this would be where somebody maybe bought a house and they took out a first maybe they bought a $200,000 house and took out a first for 80% of that 160,000 and then later they refight or they took out a second, or they got a purchase money home equity line, and maybe that balance is $40,000 on that loan. And those loans when they stop performing the institutions, they charge those off after like 90 days, they're not treated the same as a 30-year mortgage would be by the institution. So, it creates a tremendous opportunity for us because we purchase those on a you know, literally anywhere from two percent of what's owed to 60% of what's owed, depending on how much equity there is above the senior mortgage. And depending on whether the senior mortgage is still performing, the vast majority of the loans, the second mortgages we buy, will be behind a first mortgage that is still performing. So, the homeowner is making their payments on the big loan, the senior loan, but they stopped making payments on the second loan. So, we pick these up at a deep discount, and then we go to work with the borrowers and try to get them into an affordable pay plan, and back to having some equity in their property. We've been very successful at keeping people in their homes and creating an affordable payment structure and still making a good profit for investors doing that.  James: Got it. So, that's really good on the junior, on the second loan, right? But I want to come back to the first loan or the fundamental concepts first, right. So, the economy is doing very well, right. If someone is not servicing their loan, right now, right, why not the bank forecloses on it and sell off the property, rather than selling it to you at a deep discount?  Jim: Yeah. And so, as far as the first liens go, as you know, right now, foreclosure rates are very low historically. I mean, we went through the end of the 2008 mortgage crisis, if you want to pin a date to it, the subsequent three to four years, there was a glut of these non performing mortgages, the institutions basically had to do whatever they could do to get these assets off of their books. By the time they took properties all the way through to foreclosure, the regulators are breathing down their back, their balance sheets look terrible. So, they started moving upstream and selling the non-performing loans simply to get them off their books. And of course, they got all the bailout funds and all of that that we know about and have read about. So, there was a period of time where there was a large inventory of these non performing senior liens, now things have settled down from that. So there is still a good amount of those that trade in the secondary market. There has always been I mean; this business model has been going on forever because I think I heard a number the other day that historically 4% of all residential mortgages are in default at all times. And that number might have spiked up to seven or 8% during the thick of the mortgage crisis. But I mean, that means that you know, 92 to 93% of all mortgages, were still being paid by the borrower. So, you know, a doubling of the defaults is, it was a big number and it created an opportunity for a lot of people to jump into the space and like ourselves, only we just decided to jump into the junior liens because there was less people, you know, interested in that. It sounded risky, it sounded like why would you want to do that, until we started looking at what the numbers look like and the leverage that we get. So, there's not as many senior liens available now, the pricing has gotten to where it's pretty competitive, you have to really know what you're doing to buy senior liens and make it work for you because, you have to beat the clock so to speak, because the margins are a little bit stronger.  James: Okay, so, to recap, there's not much, the normal loan is available nowadays, because economy's doing well, the percentage of it is too low and the banks are not really, I mean, they have many ways to get rid of the load rather than just selling it to you, but you have been focusing on the second lien where people sometimes take double loan, I guess, right on top of one loan, they take another loan, and-- Jim: That's right.  James: And, that's what you call a junior loan?  Jim: Junior lien, a second mortgage, a home equity line, there's all kinds of names, but, yeah. James: Where do they sell these? I mean, how do you know about it?  Jim: Well, you know, really, I started going to conferences within this industry and you know, the mortgage industry, there's always been large players in it, but it's kind of a niche for small entrepreneurial investors like ourselves. We're not a pretty entrepreneurial firm, I've been in real estate related in the industry for self employed full time for 33 years now. So, I just go to a lot of conferences, I like to learn, so, I like to learn real time. So, I'd listen to podcasts, watch webinars and go to conferences. And I heard a gentleman talking about the junior liens at a conference, and he was in a little breakout room and there was only about a dozen people in there, because everybody else was in the main hall listening to how to buy senior liens, how to buy the first you know, and I heard him talking about secondly, and immediately I got it, the light came on for me and I said this is where I want to enter the space, because I understood it and I understood the leverage and I understood that the price points and so, I jumped into this niche and where we buy them is from other people that are in our world, I mean that have relationships with banks. We've bought some stuff direct from banks, we buy most of our paper through read traders, larger hedge funds, that don't know what to do with the seconds, they don't want them necessarily. So, truly in this space, one man's trash is another man's treasure, that adage holds true. We've just developed a core competency and a skill set to be able to buy, to know what to pay for these second liens and know how to do these workouts with borrowers. And it's been very lucrative for us, and it's been very helpful to the homeowners as well.  James: Got it. So okay, so interesting. So second lien the problem is they can't really foreclose on the deal, right, because now they are not the first in line, right.  Jim: Yeah, and actually that's misunderstanding right there, is exactly that part of what created the opportunity for us, because for some reason people are under the impression that you cannot foreclose from second position. And of course, you can, you know, any lender, any real estate lender, the collateral, the security for your loan, what's motivating you to make the loan is not only the borrower's ability to pay, but in the likely in the event that the borrower cannot pay, you have to be able to exercise your rights against the collateral. And so of course, a junior lien, it's a lien, it's a lien on the property and we have all of the rights of any other lien holder, of a first lien holder. It's a little bit different in that, if I foreclose from second position, typically there's some exceptions to this. But typically, if nobody comes in bids at the courthouse steps for my second lien position, I end up with the property, I get title to the property, but the first lien is still in place. So in a sense, I've just bought the property subject to the first. James: Got it. Jim: You, follow me. So, the first doesn't go away if I foreclose. Now, in some states, the first will then, you know, they'll trigger their acceleration clause and say you now owe us, you have to pay off the first as well. But in most cases, if we foreclose from second, we end up owning the property with the first mortgage still in place. Now, I want to say this upfront, our goal, our business model is not to foreclose on properties, we've actually had to do that less than 2% of the time over thousands of transactions. And there's even been cases where we've foreclosed and we've turned around, and we've unwind the foreclosure and recast a new agreement with the borrower to keep them in the property. So it's not our game, but we absolutely have the right to foreclose from second lien position.  James: So on the second lien, you’re basically the game that you get when you take over the property, you basically wipe out the equity from the original owner of the lien, of the of the loan, I guess, right and then you get 20, 30% off of the property, right?  Jim: Well, it's kind of I mean, whoever, let's say whoever held the paper before us, whoever, let's say it's a just for simple numbers, let's say it's $100,000 loan, and if we buy that loan for, you know, $25,000 we still own an IOU from the borrower for $100,000. The borrower still owes us $100,000, the bank or the originator or whoever we bought that loan from, they're out of the picture. They're gone. they assign their rights to us. They do an assignment of mortgage to us, they endorsed the note, promissory note over to us and now we are the new lender per se. Okay, so the borrower's equity is what is at stake and so, if the borrower has equity above our loan or above what we're willing to settle the loan for, then we have, you know, then we have a good position to go to the borrower and say, hey, let's work something out here, we really don't want your property. And they sometimes will say, yeah, but I don't have any equity in my property. Now, we really would like to stay, but we can't afford it. Well, what they don't know until we get talking to them is, look, we have a whole lot of room to help you to work with you. It's $100,000 loan, but if we can recast that loan, this is just an example, if we can modify that loan and get them on a payment program. And over time, say we forgive some of the principal that they owe to where maybe now they only owe $70,000. Well, that 30,000 goes right back into their equity or towards their equity in the property. Now they're incentivized to make the payments on the second, so we look at their finances. We have a pretty sophisticated underwriting team and tools that we use and we have a lot of people that have banking and loan origination experience. So, we're underwriting these people, we're not throwing usurious high interest rate loans out, our goal is for them to be able to stick, you know, they get back on track and they don't have any more speed bumps, and they can pay their mortgage at a reduced rate. And so, we might take that loan that we, you know, if the payable is $100,000, we paid 25 for it, we might get them performing, and now we've created a loan that's to us, it's worth, we could turn around and sell that loan to another investor that wants to cash flow for 50 or $60,000. So- James: Got it.  Jim: So, we can double and triple our money by creating a performing asset out of the non-performing asset that we have. James: So, your value add in this case is you're basically buying it at a deep discount, right let's say 100,000 loan, you're buying at 25,000, now you're going back to the house owner and telling you own hundred thousand, we want to get you back on track, we're going to forgive you for 30,000. Now you own 70,000, right and get them to start paying back the mortgage. And you probably will sell that 70,000 mortgage to another lender, right? Who might be, 50,000, so you basically level 25,000 to 50,000, I guess.  Jim: Yeah, so we have various, we have like seven different exit strategies for these non-performing loans that we buy. And I would say 60 plus percent of the time, we end up with either a fast settlement from the borrowers at a discount, or we modify the terms of their loan and we create paper that's now worth, our average over, you know, eight years now doing this, and thousands of loans. we're averaging and this is including the good, the bad and the ugly, the ones that become worthless for various reasons, but we're averaging in about mid twos, like two and a half times what we pay for the loan. So, if we buy a million dollars’ worth of loans, we're going to generate two and a half million dollars in revenue, it's a pretty nice multiplier. Now there's a lot of work, there's a lot of regulatory issues we have to deal with there, and there's a lot of debt forgiveness that happens in that process. But again, you hit it James, because we're buying this paper at such a deep discount, we have a lot of tools where we can make it work for both parties, both our investors and our borrowers. And that's what makes us feel good at the end of the day, we're serving, we're really serving two different groups of people.  James: So, what's the reason the origin of the first lien, the original second lien lender did not give that discount to the homeowner? Jim: Yeah, you know, in some cases, they actually do. It's pretty rare, but at the time when a lot of these loans were going into default, these institutions they just had trouble on their hands in every front, and again, they're their bookkeeping, if you will, their accounting these Junior liens is different than on a typical senior lien. So, they have to charge this paper off. So, they take the hit on their books, and it really becomes a very low priority for them to do anything with these loans at that point in time, but I think the biggest, the main answer for you there is they just had so much trouble on their hands, it was a low priority.  James: Got it. Yeah, that makes perfect sense, I mean, this bank makes billions of dollars, sometimes, you know, second lien is just a small department in their whole balance sheet, right? They don't want to deal with it okay, we lose 75%. Jim: It's actually treated differently from a compliance standpoint.  James: Okay, got it. Jim: It's not it's not the same as a 30-year mortgage.  James: Okay, so maybe they have more flexibility in terms of compliance to get rid of it and just get rid of it. Jim: Yeah. James: And companies like you take advantage of that inefficiency of the bank. And you know, basically make a business out of it, which is really interesting. I mean, this is complicated stuff, I'm sure it's not simple. Jim: No, it's not, there's a lot of trips and traps, and there's a lot of regulations and we're very compliance minded. We're licensed pretty much in every state now to do what we do. We've, you know, pursued licensing from the beginning because it's the right way to do it. And we're very consumer minded, and we try to keep up with all the credit laws and regulations because it's, you know, it's important to do so.  James: So, let's say someone want to do like what you're doing right now. What kind of license and experience do they need to get started?  Jim: Wow, well, gosh. James: I'm not trying to create a competition for you, but-- Jim: No, I'm not worried, I'm not worried about that. James: The banks as billions of dollars to dispose.  Jim: Yeah, I would say that the best way for a person to get started, honestly, is to go to start attending conferences, there's some education that you can find online. Our company is not, we're not an education company, we're actually doing this business. I mean, if people want to reach out through our website, we can certainly point people to some resources. As far as licensing goes, everybody's got to decide their own, where they're going to stick the fork into that one, because it really depends, every state is different. It's there's, some similarities, obviously, but, there's two or three different levels of licensing and then you've got 50 states. So, we, you know, we spent a lot of money pursuing licenses in the states that we thought we would end up buying the most loans in. But in our business, the pickier you are as far as what states you buy loans, and the more you're going to pay the less product you're going to find. And you're not, it's not going to be a super scalable operation, we are a growing company right now and we're scaling up our operations. We just decided we'll buy in every state, and what does it get the licensing needed to be able to do business. So, it's a pretty sophisticated operation, it's not to say a small investor can't get involved in it. But most people that invest in this space that we encounter are actually people that are interested in investing in our funds. And we you know, we have our funds are really for only for accredited investors. And, you know, that's a whole other topic, but it's a 100% passive investment for our investors that invest in our funds, invest in our business, our company operates the business models, and they just basically are passive investors, but for somebody to get in and become a note buyer or note seller. The best way to do that, honestly, is to start going to the industry conferences, listening to the presentations, talking to the people out in the sponsor hall and meeting people, that's how I started this business. Some of the people that work for us I met at some of the very first conferences I ever attended. And the people we buy notes from and the people we sell notes to, almost 100% have come through relationships built by getting out there and attending conferences and networking with people.  James: Yeah, it seems to be very niche because, you know, there's no gurus teaching this right. I mean, otherwise, everybody's-- Jim: Super niche, there are a couple gurus teaching it. And again, I mean, offline, I can be glad to help some people and point them in directions, some people that I trust, and I know in the industry that actually do training, so it is available. Like anything, there's some fluff out there, but I find most people that are in the notes world are actually pretty down to earth good people. They're not trying to, you know, it's a small enough space that if people do something really stupid, the word gets around and you know, which it should, it should, the word should get around.  James: Yeah, so I think, I don't know. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. So, compared to like, buying Real Estate, versus buying notes, notes are a very transactional business, it involves a lot of coordination, right? So, because you think you're going to move like in a system by system, I have to do this first, I have to do this first, and there's a lot of complication in terms of compliance and all that. So, somebody who enjoys that kind of work. Now I'm going buying a deal and rehabbing it and seeing it looks pretty right now, or drive around that real estate and show everybody this is the property that I have.  Jim: Yeah. James: Your job is really, you know, this is not being seen anywhere, but it's all about transaction basis. And that's how you make the money.  Jim: Yeah, and the upside of it is, you know, you can manage a lot of real estate value. These are the mortgages, you know, across the country, it's very scalable because you know, we don't get involved in the tenant’s toilets and trash, unless we have to foreclose which is very rare. And there's an infrastructure out there for our business, there's servicers, there's vendors, there's attorneys in every state that we use. There's document vendors that that check all of the collateral documents, the notes, the mortgages, all the assignments for us. So you can scale and you know, the one thing though, that real estate has that the note industry doesn't, is if you buy real estate, you might have more work on your hands, you might to get your hands a little bit dirty, but you actually own an asset that's not going to go away in 30 years. So, the paper business is really clean, and we love getting monthly checks or ach deposits into our account from thousands of borrowers, it’s a wonderful thing, we don't have to go check on the properties etc. But at the end of the day, we have to keep buying these notes and creating new cash flows. Because if you own a, you know, 100-unit apartment building, that asset is going to be sitting there 30 years from now. James: Like forever.  Jim: Yeah. So, I really think just in general terms, a good strategy for an individual investor is to do both, have a hand in both. But we do invest in real estate, you know, personally, and we'll probably eventually start some funds for purchasing key types of real estate. But we started our company in 2012, based on doing mortgages, and it's been so lucrative for us, and we've built a great team and some great models and systems. And right now it's like 100% focus on scaling this business because it's just going so well for us.  James: Yeah. And I think in the note business, I mean, you make the money in the crime section, but is there any tax benefit to it, I mean, that anybody can realize like for you also, for passive investors who invest in the funds like what you guys offer?  Jim: Yeah, the tax aspects of it, I'll just be honest, it's not really my end of the business. From what people within my company say, yeah, we have some pretty advantageous tax treatment, but that's, again, there's a lot of gray area in this business and that's something that, I mean I can't say, it's something like the opportunity zones or it's you know, you have depreciation like you do with rental real estate, there's nothing that stands out to me that's worth going on the air and saying that oh, tremendous tax advantages because of x, y and z. That's out of my skill set and I wouldn't want to say something that would get somebody in trouble down the road.  James: Okay, that makes sense. So, tell us about how passive investors can get involved into your notes, is it like you have a big fund where you go and buy you know, notes you know, in a bulk but they invest into this fund and they get certain percentage and how does that work?  Jim: Right. So, I'll just give you in a nutshell because we have two different business models and we build funds around these models. But, where we started and where the largest frankly is in our workout funds, are our non-performing loan funds where we buy, we go out and buy, you know, pools and pools of these non performing mortgages. And then we turn we board them all with a national servicer, first of all, and then we bore them with our workout team, that gets busy doing our exit strategies with the borrowers. What we do is we raise, again, for accredited investors, we raise serial closed end funds. So, we'll go out and we'll raise say $10 million, and over the course of maybe one to six months, and then as soon as we start as that capital starts coming in, we're spending it, we're always buying loans. We're always working out loans, and we're always exiting loans, but we'll put together like say fund number one, and we're actually working on funds number four and five right now. So, the investment capital comes in, we're bidding and buying loans, and we're working out those loans and then as those loans are exited, we're directing the revenues back to our investors, and until they get their capital back and then we have a profit split that we do with them. So, that's our more speculative growth oriented strategy. It's not a liquid strategy. So, person invests half a million dollars, we tell them, you know, don't count on seeing any of your money, at least for the first 18 months, because it takes a while to get these things worked out and get, we'll see some early exits, you know, six months, 12 months, but by the time we hit three years, most everything has been wound down, we've executed our exit strategies, the investors have gotten their money back, plus their profit. And, you know, we target and we've performed this, you know, anywhere from the high teens to the low 20s, mid 20s. In terms of a real IRR, that's a time loaded rate of return. So, it's a very lucrative end of the business for people that understand it. And for people that don't need, you know, the cash flow or they don't mind a three-year lockup on their money, or other side of our businesses, the Income Fund, and this is where we're buying loans that are already performing. So, we're buying cash flows, we have a sophisticated underwriting model. So, an investor puts their money into our fund, and we basically start paying, and we pay a preferred return of eight and a half percent. And, you know, this is just mailbox money. This is for somebody that wants to, you know, wants cash flow on a regular basis. And, you know, so our investors actually own, our funds actually own the loans. We do not own them, we only get paid if we're successful, and we get paid for managing the fund. So, there's no you know, there's no fluff in the middle, and it's been great. We're building both sides of the business and having really good success right now.  James: Got it. How does your business model changes if there's a recession?  Jim: Yeah, I love this question. I feel like we're so well positioned for this, because I'll just compare it to say, I'm going to just focus right now on the income side of our business, because that would be where you would think that recession would be the most immediately effective. On the non performing side, we're already buying these loans at such deep discount. So, we have all kinds of, we can be patient with those, there's all kinds of ways we can exit those successfully. But on the income side, first of all, we price into our model, a pretty substantial default rate, like 10% of our loans, we price them as if 10% of them are going to go into default. We have never seen anywhere near that in our track record, but you know, we have that built into our pricing. One thing that will tell you--  James: What about in 2008?  Jim: What was that? James: What about in 2008? Jim: So Well, we only started the business in 2012. So-- James: Okay, got it. Yeah.  Jim: So what if another big event like that happens? So, our Income Fund, our loans are spread across the country geographically. Our typical loan is a you know, $120,000, $150,000, home in the Midwest, these are workforce houses, these are bread and butter houses, the only way these loans are going to go into default, is if there's a sustained loss of income by these borrowers, these aren't speculated bubble markets. We do have some loans on the west coast and on the East Coast, we're covered with a pretty substantial amount of equity because of when we bought most of those loans. Frankly, we are balancing our portfolio, we're looking at our portfolio all the time and divesting ourselves and what we perceive as a higher risk markets, but you got to keep, this is a really important point I'm about to make here. You got to keep this in mind, If I'm lending money to a fix and flipper. And they, you know, they see that they're, it's taking them longer to finish the work. The expenses of the of the rehab are increasing, and the resale values are coming down. At some point in time they look at that project and go, I can't make any money on this deal anymore. If you're lucky as the lender, they hand you back to keys and you got to have finished rehab project in a remote location, that, you got to go take care of okay. You're not a passive investor in that scenario. In our situation, again, your investment is spread across hundreds and hundreds of bread and butter homes where people with real jobs and real kids that go to the real school down the street, they live in these homes. They're not looking at the metrics, they're not looking at Zillow every morning and saying, hey, look at this honey, we don't have near as much equity in our property, we should hand the keys back to our lender. This is a this is home sweet home. So, even if they end up in a negative equity situation, there's what we like to call in our business, emotional equity. You know, people don't want to get foreclosed on, they don't want to file bankruptcy, you know, they want to keep paying their mortgage, it's their home and they're on their way to owning it free and clear at some point on a typical 30-year mortgage. So, they're not looking at life the same way as a rehabber or a business to business lending relationship would look at life. So to me, this is our biggest, I don't think anything on the planet is recession proof. But I think we're recession resistant, I think we might see in a serious setback, if there's a big unemployment reversal, that would be probably the biggest thing that would hurt us, but even there, because most of our properties, if we had to foreclose, and take the property back, we could actually rent those properties out for more than what the mortgage payments are now. So, we're pretty capital protective. And I think our cash flow is pretty well protected as well. So, I love our models for that reason, exactly.  James: Yeah. So that's, very interesting. I mean, I'm looking at it right now. Yeah, it makes sense. Right. But if something like 2008 happen, which I don't think so, but there will be a lot more mortgage default, right? I mean, yeah, you It could be a problem for your current portfolio. But the systems and process that you already have might be a really good opportunity for you to you know, to buy-- Jim: Yeah, actually, I hate to say it because it sounds like the undertaker saying, hey business was great, this year, a bunch of people died, you know?  James: Yeah, I know. Jim: It's not something that you want to, I'm not looking forward to people having trouble or the economy having trouble. But the fact of the matter is, if we go into another 2008 type event or anything even close to it, it's going to be back up the truck for us, because like you said, we have the systems, the processes, the teams in place, and the expertise and so it would be business wise, it would be a very big time for us. But as far as our existing mortgage portfolios, I just don't think we're going to get hurt if there's a, even if there's a pretty significant turnaround, because again, it's tied to the jobs more than anything, our business is tied to jobs, not so much what's the appreciation rate or depreciation rate of real estate, that's what we love about our models, they are very uncorrelated to both the real estate market and we're super uncorrelated to Wall Street. I mean, we saw what happened just a couple days ago with stocks and bonds. And I might say, well what happened to your portfolio? What would happen to your investment and Aspen? Well, absolutely nothing, people's pay their mortgages on the day that they were due, and we got more that will be paid this week and more the next week, and life goes on. And it's just we're really not in that world. And that's what we love, and that's why we see more and more, even institutional investors moving into alternative investments. And you know, like your own James and like ours, you know, there's just, there's a real pent up demand for uncorrelated places for people to put their money. So, this is a really good time for people like us.  James: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, Jim, why don't you tell our audience and listeners on how, you know, how to get hold of you and your company?  Jim: Yeah, sure. So, the best way would be, I think you're going to have in your show notes, a link, a private link for your listeners to our website, but I'll go ahead and just give you, it's just go to our website and then request information, but it's, aspenfunds.us. So, Aspen funds is one word, "aspenfunds.us." And just search around there, and there'll be a place where you can request some information or somebody to reach out to you. And if you're wanting to get involved in buying and selling notes, we can direct you to some great resources. And if you're interested in our funds, again, you have to be an accredited investor, and we can walk you through that process as well.  James: Got it. Well, thanks for coming into the show, I really learned a lot. I mean, I do not know much about this note business, but I think I really learned a lot in it. It's very interesting.  Jim: All right, very good. Happy to be here. James: Thank you.

In today's episode, we're going to talk about where to go to learn the best business strategy. And I've got some juicy options for you. So let's dive right in. When it comes to finding advice on how to grow your business and where to focus your energy first, you have so many options.  Oh my goodness, if another internet marketing expert jumps into the pond, it doesn't even make a ripple. There are so many people out there who want to give you their advice. They want to teach you their special methodology. They believe they've found the juiciest secret, and you have so many options available to you. Now if you were to listen to the advice from some of these online marketers, you would be led to believe that every single person is able to be helped specifically by just one person. But that is never actually the case. What works for someone might not work for someone else.  What works in one market doesn't necessarily work in another. We need different business strategies for different people. We need different business strategies for different target markets. We need different business strategies for different products, different services, different countries, different cultures. So when it comes to selecting someone to tell you what to do with your business, to help guide you to grow your business, here are a few things to look out for. 1. Check Alignment. Does their sales process, ie the way they are trying to sell to you, align with your values? Have a look from an external perspective and take a step back when you're going through this sales process. Look at the steps that they take you through. Does that feel aligned? Would you be comfortable taking people through those steps yourself? How do they make you feel when you sign up for their free training?  Does it make you feel positive and excited and thinking about possibilities, or does it really make you feel panicked and worried and freaking out that you're not going to succeed without them? Chances are if they are using feelings-based and emotions-based strategies on you, when you learn business and marketing from them, they are going to tell you to do exactly the same to your potential customers.  Does that feel like something you would want to be doing for other people?  Is that the way that you want to show up? 2. Examine the Sales Process. Specifically, are there certain things that happen in the sales process that you would never do as part of your sales process?  For example, do they tell you that it's a limited time, once-off offer? And then you see it in several other places online? Are they using misleading information in this sales process?  Are you made to jump through hoops for seemingly impossible reasons? Do they force you to make early commitments when you're not really sure you're ready for it?  Look at that sales process through the lens of whether you would be willing to do that to someone else. Because if you're not, then chances are when you start to work with that person, you're going to feel like it's misaligned. And you're not necessarily going to embrace all of their process in your own business and marketing techniques. A lot of these sales processes require an “all or nothing” approach. I once had a business coach say to me if I was not willing to tell people that my pre-recorded webinars were actually live, then he would not work with me, because that's where his conversion rates and confidence came from. So that was a really big alarm bell for me, and I didn't end up signing up - (surprise, surprise) - but have a think about these things. You don't need to have that kind of confrontational conversation with someone to really get a feel for what the sales process is that they use and whether that feels like something you would be willing to do as well. 3. Listen to your gut; listen to your heart. You are very smart person and often your body and your intuition is telling you to run in the other direction, but we make it mean that maybe we're just not cut out for this stuff.  You think, “Maybe this is exactly what I need because it's really pushing my buttons. Maybe this is what I just need to suck it up and do in order to be successful.” But if you have a gut feeling that this person isn't for you, or that this process isn't for you, or that you're not 100% comfortable with what's just happened, then listen to yourself.  Listen to your intuition. Listen to those gut feelings. Only you know how aligned you feel with a business mentor and a marketing mentor.  Only you are able to really tap into whether it feels right, or whether it feels completely misaligned. 4. Review Stage of Business. Are the strategies that they are teaching appropriate for your stage of business?  Now, this is a really interesting one, because a lot of people jump into programs and courses and business strategy they're not ready for yet, thinking they are leap-frogging into a stage that's really aspirational for them. But if you're missing some of those solid business foundations, you end up playing in advanced marketing and strategies that rely on things you don't actually have yet. For example, if you are wanting to leverage your time and sell online courses and programs, but you don't have an audience, you don't have solid messaging, you haven't proven that people are willing to pay for that outcome yet, then you might just be playing with marketing strategies that are “up here,” when what you really need to do is sort out what's going on in the foundations. So get really clear about what stage of business you're at, and get really clear about what this particular marketing strategy is targeted towards. Is it actually targeted towards people in start-up, like you? Or are they just trying to convince you that you can jump in and invest in Facebook ads and get results straightaway? I was very disappointed a few weeks ago to go to a free webinar, where someone was teaching advanced sales funnel strategies and automations, and they were trying to pitch it as being appropriate for people who are in very early stages of start-up all the way through to having hundreds of people on your mailing list. Actually, a lot of the strategies that they were talking about would involve you risking a lot of your time and a lot of your money in developing automated and pre-design all sorts of different funnels without actually knowing or having evidence that when people get to the end of the funnel, they'll actually buy what you have to offer. That they're actually interested in investing in this particular outcome. So have a think about and do some assessments about what stage of business you're at. And then when you're looking for business strategy advice, make sure that it's appropriate for your stage of business, and really listen to what that person is saying about who it's designed for. If they are saying it’s for start-up and all the way through to advanced, chances are the people in the earliest stages of business will get left behind, and will feel like there's something wrong with them, and won't actually get the results and end up going round in circles, because they haven't got those solid foundations in place. If the person selling you the marketing strategy isn't clear on what stage of business it's for, reach out and ask them. And if they give you a very broad brush answer, chances are they haven't actually been discerning about whether this strategy is appropriate for all stages of business, because there are very few strategies that can be applied to all stages of business, carte blanche. In particular, look for where they talk about investment in advertising, or other functionality, technology, and platforms. Because if they are expecting a significant investment, then you really want to make sure you've got proof of concept before you go down that pathway. A great question to ask before you join any course or program is: “What am I expected to invest beyond the purchase of this course or program?” For example, in the Takeoff program, on the sales page, I say that all of the tools and strategies we use require less than $100 in investment beyond purchasing the Takeoff program. I'm very upfront and very clear that you don't need an additional budget in order to get the results. Many years ago, when I was looking at purchasing a Facebook ads program, I reached out to ask what the expected investment in Facebook ads was. I said, “Look, I only really have around $500 to $600 a month to invest in doing Facebook ads in my business. Will I still be able to get value from this program, or is there an expected investment that's a little higher?”  The person replied back to me and said “No, $500 is enough. Just make sure that you jump into the program.” However, just before I clicked the “Buy Now” button, I went and read the terms and conditions of the program. This program had a 30-day “no questions asked” money back guarantee, but in the terms and conditions of that course, it said that I needed to show I had invested over $2,000 in Facebook ads within the first 30 days to be eligible for the refund!!  What! Now I'm sure my legal peeps would say that technically, I would have been able to get out of that refund policy if I had chosen to invest, but you want to make sure that you're going in with your eyes open. So review the marketing advice and the potential investment that you're making through the lens of whether this is appropriate for your stage of business. 5. Ask around. Don't just ask people their opinion but ask for their results - what the process was and what their return on investment was as well. The other little trick I like is to ask for opinions from people who invested in the program over a year ago. If they are still feeling the love for the program, then chances are it is a good fit and it is a great opportunity.  What I find is when I ask for opinions on programs, the only opinions and advice I get back in public spaces are from people who've just joined. So they've just joined in the last four to six weeks, and they're really excited about their investment, and they want other people to join them as well. One of the things in buyer psychology is that “if other people are coming in behind me, it helps me to justify my decision.”  You might see this with people who are with certain telephone providers, they always recommend the one that they went with, because that's the one that they went with, and they want to justify their own decision by making sure that other people see it's a great opportunity as well. So whenever someone offers to give me feedback on a program or share their experiences, I'll always ask “How long have you been in the program?”  And if they haven't been in the program for more than a year, then usually I won't necessarily take their feedback on board as strongly as I would if someone has been in the program longer. It's a really good way to just see what kinds of results people are getting and really dig into whether it could be a good program for you or whether this is a great person to follow. Now, the other thing I like to talk about is not just people's opinions on the program, but to ask them what their results are, and ask them what it feels like - what's the process inside the program. Ask them, “How long did it take for you to get return on investment from this particular program?” They are really juicy questions to ask, and give you way more information, versus, “Is it a nice program? Is this a nice person? Is this worth my money?”  People can't make those decisions for you, and people can't tell you whether it's worth your money because everyone has unique circumstances and situations. 6. Try out their free stuff first. Often what we find in online marketing circles is that there is a push to get you to invest as quickly as possible. Other online marketers will say that the first 30 days when someone joins your list is the most critical time and you need to really bombard them with all the information and make sure that you get them to commit to the investment because if they don't purchase within that 30 days, then the chances of them investing over time will go down and down. But for myself, the opposite of that is actually true.  The longer someone has been in Tash Corbin world, the more likely they are to eventually invest in something with me. And I think this is because I give people a really good indicator and experience of what it's like to work with me through my freebies, and through podcast episodes like this, and the Facebook Lives that I do. Over time, I'm actually growing people's trust in me and what I offer, rather than diminishing their trust in what I offer.        

This week is a replay of the show aired originally on 7 Mar 2020 Welcome!   We are going to hit a number of topics today from the world of Technology.  I am quite disappointed with Mozilla, they are letting marketers and politicians define their technology. Listen in to find out why I feel that way. Compliance is an issue for many companies and I have some solutions that will help you and it includes a diet but probably not the kind you are thinking.  Do you ever get nostalgic for "the good old days?" Well, I have something that might help, listen in to find out more. I will tell you happened to one of the Sharks from Shark Tank? How you can prevent it from happening to you and more. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: Getting Your Fix of Nostalgia Don’t Store Data You Don’t Need Cryptocurrencies and Insurance Increases Ransomware Profitability Are you Secure -- Depends on Many Things You Don’t Have Much Time To Stop An Attack Hackers Target Large Databases Anyone Can Be A Victim - Business Email Compromise Does Not Play Favorites  DNS over HTTPS (DoH) is not the Panacea the Marketers Are Leading you to Believe --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Hello everybody, Craig Peterson here on WGAN and, of course, online at Craig Peterson, dot com and heard streaming all over the world on your favorite streaming site. I'm so glad to be here today and be able to talk with you a little bit about what are the top news stories this week? How can you keep safe that's kind of one of my themes because I freaked out when my company got attacked some years ago. You know, just a regular business guy trying to run a small business and man did hurt me bad back in the day. I'm just trying to get all of the information I've put together over the years and learn, and I continue to study this stuff and continue to look at what are the best ways to defend ourselves. I try and get all of that and put it together into neat packages for you. One of them, of course, is the radio show. I also get on with Facebook Lives. YouTube lives, and also do various types of pieces of training and tutorials and things out there. Where in fact, for the next course I have coming up, we're going to have implementation calls, where we are talking specifically about what to do when you do it. So you try and implement something, you have some issues. I'm going to get on the phone with you guys. So I think that's going to be great. And then the upcoming class here in a few weeks. And then, of course, the tutorials leading up to that class where I'll take your questions live, sometimes those little tutorial sessions on, you know what it's webinar technology. On these webinars, sometimes we go a couple of hours so I can answer all of your questions. That's what it's about here. All right, because I understand most people, not I know I'm this way too. I get contacted by somebody, and they're trying to sell me something that happened just over the weekend. Last weekend somebody knocked at the door, trying to sell windows, right. I think it was like Renewal by Andersen or something like that. And they were walking around knocking on doors. I see you know, immediately just knee jerk said, No, No thanks, my windows are fine. It got me to thinking about the whole situation in the security realm. Because that's what we do, right? What we've been doing for years decades, sometimes we have the antivirus software, every once in a while when we hear about a real big vulnerability, we go ahead and apply patches. You know, it's been the same old, same old, but we just can't do that anymore. And because really, we see huge, huge problems and businesses going out of business because of them. So that's what this is all about. So if you're a new listener, welcome. If you've been listening to me for a while, of course, Welcome, Welcome to you too. And I want to get this information out. So one of the best ways to make sure you have all of the latest information you need is to go online go to Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe, and that'll get you on my email list. Then once you're there, you will be able to keep up on up to date on things I do, try and get those out. I have a newsletter that's every Saturday morning. Then when I'm doing training, I'll send something that's a little out of the band if I'm doing a live or various other things. I thought because of the way it works with the emails I send out, if you want to unsubscribe, you will be guaranteed to never hear from me again. Maybe that's a great thing that is right for some people. But for other people, I came to realize that perhaps they didn't care about the training, they just wanted the newsletter, or perhaps they wanted the pieces of training but didn't want any emails. Some wanted on courses but not other courses, etc., etc. So I'm going to try and do something a little bit different right now, and there's a pretty nasty warning as a footnote. If you unsubscribe, I can't send you anything anymore. I won't send you anything even if you want a course, you'll not hear from me again, because you unsubscribed and marked as somebody that doesn't ever want to hear from me again. That's fine. I know we all have our lives, and maybe you think you're safe enough. Perhaps you're going to reach out to me when everything falls apart around you. At which point, I can't respond to you because I will have your email blocked. That is because I don't want to bother you. I want to comply with the can-spam app act. Although, you know, most people don't seem to care about that as well as the GDPR. Also, The New California regulations, the Massachusetts regulations, and new federal regulations that are going into effect. They all place requirements on when and where I'm not supposed to contact you. If you say No. Then No means no, right. I'm going to change things a little bit with these upcoming training and courses that I'm going to be doing. I'm going to make it so you can just unsubscribe from those, so you're not going to lose contact with me. I've had some people complain, and in the end, it becomes a bit of a pain to try and add them back in. We're going to try and make this a little bit easier for you guys, so keep an eye out for that. You already know right based on what I'm saying, as well as what I've done in the past that I won't spam you guys, I don't sell your name to other people your email address. Most of you I know are kind of the older generations, the younger guys they don't care we've already talked about that. They will sell their email address and name for a donut. But us older folk were a little bit more cautious about it. I think that's probably a good thing. We're less likely to get ripped off the senior population in some ways less likely to get ripped off, and other ways more likely get ripped off. It's interesting. Again, we tend to trust phone calls more. You know what I have, frankly, I don't answer my phone anymore. It just goes to voicemail. And I have somebody else look at it because there are so many scams coming in. But we tend to trust the phones more in the generation, you know, the men and women older than me, other baby boomers, they are a little bit more susceptible to those types of scams. So be careful with those types of scams as well just you know, be careful all the way around, frankly. And that brings us to our first story of the day today. And this is something I found that I thought was cool. So I thought I'd share it with you. It's a tech thing. I was just a few weeks ago talking on the radio. One of the radio shows I appear on as a guest. And we were talking about Betamax versus VHS. And I knew I knew that the radio host I was talking to there's no way he just loves tech. There's no way he did not have Betamax. And he did. He had hundreds, apparently of beta tapes in his closet. But this is all about that Era of the 1990s. I'm sure you guys had VCRs right back in the day. And of course, the winner of that war was VHS, and it wasn't because it was better technology, but we're not going to delve into that right now. And those VHS tapes, at this point, about 20,000 of them have been put into an online vault. Now, if you've never used the Wayback Machine, you have to check it out. You can find it online. At archive.org, that's the name of it. It is an Internet Archive, and it shows web pages going way back, you can look at my web page from back in the very, very, very early days of the Internet. When you know, love the not the Internet, but of when the whole web thing came about, which was 9293 is when it started to go. I didn't have a webpage back in 85. When I first registered my domain that's been around for a while. And then, of course, I was using other domains. Before that, I've used my ham radio call sign is my domain. And before that, but the Wayback Machine is this archive, you can browse the history of any major site, many miners sites that are out there. They have used it in court cases. It's used by me, just for kind of memories of things as the way they were. Now you can use it for something brand new. I didn't know that they had, and that is They've got something out there on the Wayback Machine that's called the VHS vault V-H-S just like the VHS tapes that we had or that ken didn't have because he had Betamax. Right now, I'm looking at says there are almost 21,000 results. So they've taken these VHS tapes that were submitted, and they have effectively ripped them. They've turned them into digital video, right. And some of these are just amazing, like a warm-up to Traci Lords. It's an exercise program. Of course, Traci Lords was involved in some adult films back in the day. Man, I love this mystery science theater. 3000 Timothy Leary is a guest on MTV with John Lennon, Les Miserables from 1935, rush to judgment. There are some many cool things The Lion King in full VHS tapes. Now some of this information is probably still copyrighted, but as a general rule, archive.org doesn't get nailed for copyright violations. SpongeBob SquarePants Oh, this is the Fairy Fairy Godmother I think is what this cartoon was called and trying to remember my kids used to like it. Some bootleg tapes, everything, but you can find it online I think you would have a gas looking through these. I want you to go to archive.org as you're listening to the show, or maybe some other time during the week, you're sitting there watching some TV with your smartphone or your computer. Archive.org and look for the VHS vault. The actual URL is archive.org slash details slash VHS vault. You will see all kinds of fun stuff that's in there. They have many different collections You can search this you can go in by year when They did it. They have Flemish dog collection. There's another one. There are collections I've used in some of the training videos I put together. There are collections of old black and white art, and pencil art, and engineering diagrams that are well, well auto copyright and you'll find all that stuff@archive.org Check it out, I think you will have a gas checking it out. If you're like me, it's certainly brought back a lot of memories.  When we get back, we're going to be talking about something that you should be doing, whether you're a home user or business user. You know, the things that we have to be worried about are the things that can be stolen from us, right, in the online world. Okay, this is what we will be talking about. What can be taken from us, but also what can be used to kind of hold our feet to the fire in ransomware. So we're going to talk about how to reduce your risk with Craig Peterson here on WGAN Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey everybody Craig Peterson back here on WGAN online, and of course, at Craig Peterson dot com. Yeah, you know it by now, right? Well, hopefully, you had a chance to look@archive.org, definitely check it out. It's called the Wayback Machine, at least that was its original name. And they may still have that domain, the Wayback machine.com. But now it's known as archive.org. It is a wonderful, wonderful trip down memory lane, at least for me. If, if you are a little bit older, you might remember the Internet back in the days fun looking at some of the original search pages at AltaVista. Man, I miss AltaVista. I used to like to use the Boolean algebra that you could do in AltaVista. By the way, if you are a geek like me when it comes to searching and you want to be able to dig into it. There's a tool I use, and I think that you'd like it also. It's not cheap, that's for sure, but not that expensive either, but it's called DEVONthink, D-E-V-O-N T-H-I-N-K. It allows you to set up searches using all kinds of Boolean constructs, which is very, very, very handy, at least as far as I'm concerned. You can set it up to do automatic search sets every day looking for different things. It's one of the tools I use to find the information that we talk about here on this show because so much of it just isn't generally speaking, available. It certainly isn't spoken about by the mainstream media, right? You know that right. That's why you listen to the show and why you follow me. I am on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Twitter, YouTube, and my website as well. I appreciate all you guys who do follow and who comment. Now, if you're a business person, this is for you, but there are some things that you can do as an individual as well that are going to make a big difference for yourself and your safety online. Businesses are concerned about the GDPR, which we've talked about on the show before. That's the European privacy regulation. We're also very concerned right now with CCPA. I just had a company that makes optics. I use their optics here in the studio if you have ever seen me on a webinar or one of these videos or pop up training or anything. I'm in the studio, and my cameras here the lenses use the glass made by this company. I had no idea, but they reached out to us due to their operations in California. They have a sales operation there because, again, they're selling their optical glass for use in lenses, and all kinds of other devices. They reached out because they were concerned about what is happening, what could happen with these new California privacy regulations? Is it going to mess up their business? How is it going to mess up their business? How is it going to make things better or worse? I think they had some outstanding questions. So they called us in, and they paid us to do an audit of the systems they have. How are the systems working? What is it that we need to be worried about? You know, it's something that takes a few weeks and a couple of on-site visits in New York? New York State, which by the way, is going to have their own set of privacy regulations that are going to affect them pretty dramatically. But basically, what it came down to was if they were compliant with the European regulations, they were probably most of the way towards the California regulations. So they think that they're compliant. But when we got in and started having to look at it, it turned out No, no, no. They are not anywhere near compliant with either set of regulations. Even though their IT people told them they are because they have full-time programmers who are programming their systems. They thought, Oh, no, no, we're fine. We're fine. No, they weren't. So what do you do if your regular business? Enough moaning and groaning about the optical manufacturer, who has fantastic optics, which is why I use them. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about your business, your small business, your larger business, this is true, you should be paying attention if you are a medium or large business as well. One of the best things you can do, and it is hard to get through to a lot of CEOs and other business owners. But one of the best things you can do to reduce your risks is to reduce the data that you are maintaining. Right? If you want to reduce the chance of getting shot at, don't go out in the streets where they're shooting, right? If you want to reduce the risk of having your data stolen, then don't have the data out there for them to steal. If you don't want to get nailed by one of these new regulations, that says, hey, personally identifiable information has to be maintained in this way and that way. If someone asks you what data do you have on me? Do you realize now you only have one week to respond? You must provide that data to them. If you have any sort of a California Nexus or European Nexus, in other words, doing business in either one of those places. Now, it's down to I think five days it's not a week to respond, saying, Here's all of the data that we have about you. That's what you have to be able to do. We have to be able to do it right now. You also have to be able to tell them, here are all of the people within my organization as well our contractors that saw your data and had access to your data. That is a very, very big deal, frankly. The landscape is constantly changing your obligations for that data, and the data disclosure and the data-keeping keeps getting more strict. What's the right thing for you to do? Ultimately, well, it's to get rid of the damn data, right? It's a very, very solid first step in reducing your risk. Now I'm going to be publishing next week, a little guide that you can use yourself, right, you don't have to have me involved, or anything else is just for you, that you can use to do an inventory of all of the data that you have in your business. What we've done is we've gone through and looked at different parts of the businesses that we've worked with over the years and evaluated the kind of data they often have. You have to do that first, right? You must identify what your risks are. You must determine what data you have. I'll make that available for those people on my email list. It will be part of this ramp-up here, a precursor to the pieces of training that I will be doing. There will be different free pieces of training and tutorials in my ramp-up to my courses. You don't have to be in the course to participate in the free tutorials, okay? You don't have to buy anything from me. It is all free, no hype or anything else. Okay. I'm not trying to hard-sell anybody I want to help you. That is the first step -- doing this inventory the data you have, and it is one of the best things you can do. Put your company on a data diet. Now, you know, last week we had Barry Friedman on the show, talking about a sugar diet. Right. It's a lot like that, and it's getting rid of these addictive pieces of data that we keep on our clients on our prospects, everything else that's out there, right. Let's look at it as a lens. When you're looking at your data when you're doing an inventory of these data assets, ask yourself, do I need this? Will this provide what I need? Think about maybe like a food diet as Barry does with sugar? Do I need sugar? We know is sugar going to provide us the nutrients that we need? The answer to that is no. When it comes to sugar, right. We found that out from Barry last week. But we need to work to minimize sensitive data and ask ourselves, do we need this sensitive data to conduct business right now? And will we need this sensitive data to conduct business in the future? If the answer's no, securely dispose of that data. It is the only way to comply with these regulations that are already in place here in the US and Europe as well. All right, when we get back, we're going to talk about how did we get here? How did we? How did ransomware grow to be a multi-billion dollar industry? What did we do to get here? What should we do to try and get beyond all of this? You're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN. And of course online at Craig Peterson. dot com, live on youtube, live on Facebook everywhere out there. Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey, welcome back, everybody, Craig Peterson here on WGAN, and of course online at Craig Peterson dot com. In case you missed it. We've been busy today talking about the internet archives VHS vault. Again, that's archive.org. Check it out. It is kind of cool. We just talked about reducing risk using the cheapest mechanism possible. Data minimization will save you money and help you be compliant. Now I'm going to talk about ransomware. We've been warned recently about ransomware's rise. Many people thought it's kind of past. In some ways, it has. 2018 was kind of the banner year for the standard ransomware that out there, but it is back, and it is back with a vengeance. We talked about some of the statistics about a month ago and showed how it had gone up a bit almost doubled just between the third and fourth quarters last year, which is just absolutely dramatic. I had a course before, where we talked a little bit about backups. I've certainly talked about it here on the show before, and how backups help stop ransomware. Let's just spend a couple of minutes on that right now, although it's not 100% accurate anymore. It is essential to do for just a whole plethora of reasons. Backups are kind of the very first stage of what you need. I read an article yesterday from a guy who is in some of the highest circles in the country. He had the phone numbers, the direct cell numbers of presidents and you name it, really just anybody who's anybody was on his phone. It was an Android phone. He had assumed that it was backed up into the cloud or something. His phone broke. He got a new phone and realized at that point that his phone had that never, ever, ever, been backed up. He lost the phone numbers from all of these people. Good luck getting them back, cell phone numbers, other contact information. Think of all the things that are on our phones nowadays. Losing your phone, having a hard disk crash on your laptop, or your desktop computer. Losing those can be devastating, no question about it. If you're a larger business and you think that you're doing backups, double-check them. I'd say three times quarters of the time, and I can't think of an exception to this, your backups will not work correctly for that business. I've never seen a case where all backups are working correctly, ever, ever going into a business. I know you, Craig, you're just crazy. It's silly. You're trying to build a business and scare people. No, I have never walked into a company and found their backups to be working correctly. We see things like, and I don't mean, they're not working in a way that is ideal or optimal for the business. Right? Certainly that on top of it. I mean, they weren't working. We had one company that we went into, and they were dutifully doing backups, and the operations manager had five external hard disks. Every day he brought a hard drive in, he plugged it into the server and took it home at the end of the day. So we had Monday through Friday, hard disks that you brought back home with them. So they were off-site, which is, you know, great idea, by the way. The server itself had a RAID configuration on it and is called a raid five. It had three hard disks so that if a drive failed, they wouldn't lose all of their data. We went in because they wanted to do some upgrades. They hoped to move over to Apple infrastructure, where people could use iPads and iMacs on their desks to have a better working environment for everyone by moving away from windows. By the way, this is an excellent idea. They still had some Windows software that they had to run, so we helped them with that and got that all working running correctly. The backups you know, they were trying to do the right thing. But you know, you know what, there were a couple of problems one, their server had not written to any of those external disks for the last 18 months. They went a year and a half without ever having had a good backup. Think about that. What would happen to that business? What would happen to your company? After 18 months of no good backups and losing all your data? Oh, and their server, an HP server, that cute little HP server had that RAID array, right a raid five where you can lose a disk and not lose data. Well, they had lost a drive. We were estimating based on the logs about a year before. There they were with no backups and no redundancy in their server disks on their server. That's an example right now, and I could go on and on. We had a company division of a Fortune 100 company that had paid for backups, and they had a dedicated data line. We put some next-generation firewalls in place that monitored the data and watched for data exfiltration to make sure that the plans and designs and social security numbers and bank accounts and everything were not being stolen or taken off off-site, right. Guess what we found there? After six weeks of monitoring everything that's been going on because that's the first step right. Let's make sure we understand what the normal operations are. Didn't you tell us that you had an off-site backup of your mini computer going to another backup site? Oh, yeah, yeah, we do. It gets backed up in real-time. We're paying for the backups to go off-site. If something were to happen to our facility here, or to our computer, which is a big server, then they'd take over immediately we'd be off and running during those six weeks that we were in there we hadn't been involved with these operations. Ultimately, we were in there for decades. Guess what we found? Yeah, exactly. None of the backups were occurring. They were paying for all of these things, right? They were paying for them. What we ended up doing is we came in, and we made sure that backups were happening. Unfortunately, they didn't have us do those backups. The company doing it for them was incompetent. And yet they decided to have them continue to do it. It doesn't make sense. We took over the rest of the backups. We had equipment on site, which we do at most of our clients. In case there's a problem, there are failovers that can occur. In this case, we'd have them back online in four hours, a requirement of publicly traded companies and their divisions. Again, they're just not doing anyways. Ramble. Ramble. Wow, we've only got a couple of minutes left here in this segment. When it comes to backups, here's what you have to be careful of, and that is, make sure they are happening. Check the backups. Try and restore from your backups. Now, we're talking about ransomware. It is a seven and a half-billion-dollar industry. They are coming for you, and one of the best things you can do is have a backup. Still, there's another side to ransomware, nowadays, that backup won't help you with, and that is that they have your data, and they hold a ransom saying, if you don't pay us, we're going to release this onto the Internet. Then you're in real trouble. If you have personally identifiable information, or if you have your intellectual property out there, and it gets out to the Internet because you don't pay that ransom, you are in real trouble, plus if they encrypt your data, you'll need that backup.  All right, stick around. We will be right back. And we're going to be talking about our next topic for the day, which is how do you answer a non-technical executive, who asks, how secure are we? Your listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN and online at Craig Peterson dot com. Hey, have you ever been asked that question? Well, we'll tell you about how to answer it, coming right up. Hey, welcome back, everybody, Craig Peterson here on WGAN and online, of course at Craig Peterson dot com. No surprise there. Our next one is an interesting article and poses an interesting question. It is one that I'm sure you ask or have been asked, right? How secure are we? You are the Calvary, is the bottom line. You're the person who your family comes to, or the business owner comes to, the business asks whenever they have a tech question, right? You wouldn't be listening otherwise. It is how you get ahead. It is how you learn. You listen to me and others, read articles. You are the Calvary. How does the Calvary answer that question, when you're asked, How secure are we? You know, there's the obvious answer. Well, you know, we got this, and we got that. We have an Anti-virus, and we have a firewall. Those, frankly, are buzzwords that many of us use just to obfuscate the real answer to that question. I know that many times when we go into a business, and we secure it, we put together a proposal. Most of the time, our recommendations are not accepted. Most of the time, when we go into a business, and we say, here's what you need. Here's what you need to do to stay secure, they say No, thank you, and prefer to run with blinders. Hopefully, they won't stumble in the middle of the night get or tossed by that horse, of just kind of ignoring it, right. Blinders or maybe you might want to call it ostrich-ing and to put their head in the sand or whatever, you want to call it, But most of the time, in reality, the businesses just don't do anything. Sometimes they do, right. That's how I stay in business. I stay in business because of the companies that want to remain secure. I stay in business because of the people that are the Calvary. They're like you who want to buy my courses to understand more to get step by step instructions know, not just the stories behind things, but the strategy in the exact tactics that they have to take. And that's you, I suspect, right? I think you're probably a lot like me in that way. That's how I like to learn, and that's how I teach as well. Well, this article is from our friends over Dark Reading. And the question is, uh, how secure are we? And how should we answer that? There's a great response by Kurtis Minder, the CEO, and Co-Founder of GroupSense. He says it depends. You've got to look at your executive team and qualify their level of understanding. Answering the question with the answer of well, we have antivirus, we have a firewall, and we have mail filters. You know, a lot of people nowadays say, "well, we're in the cloud," and there's nothing to worry about, which we already know, isn't true, right? There's way more to worry about if you're in the cloud than if you have a local server. For those of you who are the kind of computer security people for your organization addressing this requires finding out where they are coming from who they are comparing. For instance, is it to what the Payment Card Industry PCI-DSS says we're supposed to do? Are we supposed to compare ourselves to the HIPAA-HiTech regulations? In other words, we have some medical data, which by the way, every company does, if you have any sort of a Health Insurance Program, right? Are we supposed to compare ourselves to the NIST 171 standard? There's, even more, there is the CMMC. There's, there's a lot of different criteria that are out there. You must understand the HOW before you answer this question. How secure we compared to similar companies in our industry? Or companies that are similar in size to us? No matter how you're going to answer that question, when the boss comes a-knockin or the kids or your wife comes a-knockin saying, How secure are we? No matter who it is you're talking to, I think the one thing you have to make sure of is that they understand that the whole security threat landscape is fluid. It's always changing, and your security programs need to be fluid as well. That's the reason I have consulting clients, right. That's the reason I have a membership program. The people who are the Calvary can follow and understand what it is they need to know. Now I want to hop over to this other guy here. His name is Matt Combs. And he is a global cybersecurity practice leader for an executive recruiter called Russell Reynolds Associates. It is absolutely a phenomenal interview on CIO.com. He's saying many companies were blissfully unaware t, especially those that don't have credit card information. How many times have I said that, right? It takes at least six months for the average company to figure out a breach occurred. Why did Matt say, especially those that don't have credit card information? It's because if they have credit card information, that information is likely to be sold on the open market very quickly. Once sold, the credit card companies are going to notice, right? Many companies have only learned that a breach occurred after the FBI came knocking on the door and told them they had a problem. Look at Home Depot. What happened? The FBI traced the dots. Home Depot, was compromised through their point of sale equipment. Can you believe that? people sitting in the parking lot of Home Depot hacked them? They didn't even know it until the FBI knocked on the door. That's a pretty big deal, on a pretty big company. I think they are the second-largest retailer in the country? When it comes to dollar-to-dollar value? Are you sold? Okay. If you don't have the credit card information, how would you even know that a breach happened? It goes ties back into the fluidity of security. It seems so obvious. Now when you look back at Home Depot and say, What were they thinking? I look at the target the TJX companies, and their hack they had security equipment, and that security equipment was quite good. It was alerting them, "whoa, wait a minute, guys, we've got a breach, okay." Did they take care of it? No, because they didn't know how to read the output, and they didn't have enough people to look at the logs, which is something else we keep telling you all. You have to watch the logs. You have to watch them closely. It's a full-time job. It's a highly skilled job, a highly trained job. It is not cheap, okay. I know a hotel company with 500 hotels in the United States, of course, you can look that up to find out who it is. They have a chief information security officer who is an information security group of one. Think about that 500 hotels, just the business itself, all of the data that they have, the liability that they have, and he doesn't have anyone working for him. Not even a support person. He has to beg, borrow, and steal help from it, and from the CIO, the Chief Information Officer. So when the executive asks you how secure are we, you have to say, Hey, listen, you know we can lock down the doors, we can lock down the windows, but the odds are if someone wants to breach us, they will be able to. However, make sure you are locking down the doors and locking down the windows. You got to close it all up. There was one other thing I think you should do when this non-tech executive asks you about how secure we are. That is, what's your nightmare, Mr. Executive? Which systems? Are you most concerned about being compromised? You should go back to the question I asked a little bit earlier, which is, what data do we have that maybe we shouldn't have? What data do we have that we are most concerned about losing? What are the Family Jewels in our organization? What is the data that if we were to lose it, we'd be in a lot of trouble, either because we could not conduct business anymore, or maybe we would get nailed by the regulators out there? Anyway, a lot of really, really good questions to ask because you're never 100% secure. All it takes is for one employee to click on the wrong link on an email. What I was just talking about will come up a little later on today. I talked about it this week on several radio stations. What happened with Barbara Cochran, an investor from Shark Tank. Stay tuned as we'll talk about it a little bit later on. All it takes and frankly, employee negligence such as accidental loss of data, accidental clicking on things. Employee negligence is still the main cause of data breaches. In a report from ShredIT now, of course, they're in the business of shredding documents of getting rid of these things. Shredding hard disk drives when you take them out of a computer. Remote workers and external vendors are also now a major cause of the increase in data breaches. That's one of the things we're going to be covering here in my course coming up in a couple of weeks, and that is the upstream-downstream risk. And the US military is totally into this now, because they had two or three major breaches last year that came through vendors. So hackers are no match for human error when it comes to sheer numbers. You also have the insider threats of people who are stealing from you. So they can get a better job, take it with them to another job. You have people who are upset with you and are just making an absolute mess of things on the way out the doors. So be very careful about that because it's huge data breaches cost an average of $3.6 million globally average that was in 2017. Some of those prices have gone up. The faster you respond to a breach, the more money that you'll save. They found that if you can respond to a breach within 30 days, on average, you'll save over a million dollars. Think of that. The odds are good that you will get breached. You will save, on average, a million dollars. Yet you're not funding the security people either by going to an external contractor, like me, to take care of it for you. Or you don't provide the resources to the internal people they need to do it. It is a huge, huge job. All right, top of the hour course, on the radio stations, we've got the news, traffic, weather, all that sort of stuff coming up. Then when we get back, we're going to talk about a new metric in security. The next-gen security metrics. Stick around, and you are listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN and online.   Hey everybody, welcome back. Craig Peterson here, on WGAN and, of course, online at Craig Peterson dot com. We have already covered a bunch today. I would refer you over to my website. If you'd like to find out a little bit more, of course, I'm also on the streaming services. You can find it there. We've covered the internet archive. They've got this cool, new VHS vault. We discussed ways to reduce your risk of data loss. It's all about identifying your data. and then minimizing your data, how we enabled ransomware to become a multi-billion dollar industry. And I also gave some good advice on backups and the fact that 100% of the businesses I've ever walked into have had a failed backup strategy and failed in a bunch of different ways. It is big for all of us who are out there who are members of the Calvary, who are trying to help our friends, our family with their computer issues, and the businesses for whom we work. Then we got to how to answer questions that we get that have to do with our level of security? How secure are we? How secure is the business? That's what we have covered so far today. I love our next topic. It's phenomenal. It's from Thread Post.com. But they're talking about different types of security metrics. Now, metrics, of course, our measurements, or the ways we measure things. We always have to measure progress to be able to know have we gotten to where we need to be, right. Progress can be difficult to measure. There are a lot of different types of measurements when it comes to our security. Say for Microsoft Windows, one of the big things is, are you ready every Patch Tuesday. Then a little bit more, as Microsoft sometimes comes with out-of-cycle patches. They got nailed a few years ago, through criticisms about them releasing new patches, like constantly, because they needed to release them. And so instead of fixing their problem, which would be almost impossible to do, and that is rewriting windows and making it much more secure design, they decided they would just go ahead and release patches once a month. And that way, of course, you're not getting them every day. So who's getting noticed that in fact, there are a whole lot of vulnerabilities and Windows. So that was another measurement that we had. Did you get your Patch Tuesday stuff done? That's been around a very long time? Well, we've got a new metric here, and it's called hardening. Now, I don't know about you guys, but my wife thinks that most people don't know what the name hardening is. So I'll explain it a little bit. Hardening is where we close holes in our networks and our Windows computers. That's really what our emphasis is going to be coming up here next week when we start our whole hardening series. By the time you finish this series and the courses, you'll be able to lock down any Windows or Mac computer yourself. You are going to be able to lock down your small business network, and you're going to stop worrying about being the victim of the bad guys. We're also going to train you on how to test everything yourself. That you can make sure that they can't get in, right. If not tested, how will you know it works. It's like I was talking about with backups. How do you know they are working? How do you know it's effective? How effective is it? So we're going to teach all of that, and I think that's just going to be amazing for you guys, man. We're looking to do something you guys are going to love. Hardening in the case of our computers includes our computers, browsers, firewalls, and routers. In other words, there, we're using all of the options, all of the available software to make sure that bad guys are not easily going to get in is our Windows Firewall harden on our computers? Did you even know you had a firewall on a Windows computer? Well, it's almost useless. Because Windows has a firewall, it is turned on by default, but they have all kinds of services turned on and available to be used. All of these things are kind of crazy. When we get down to it, there are things we can do. That's what we're going to be covering starting in about a week with some of these tutorials. And with our great course that we have coming up. Now, let's talk about what's holding us back and what mean time to harden means. We're looking at vulnerabilities, when we're talking about a zero-day-attack, it is one that no one has seen before and where there is not a patch or workaround for it. It's really kind of a nasty thing. When it comes to hardening, you want to make sure that you have as few services as possible on your computer, firewall, and browser. That again makes your attack surface smaller. But when we're talking about those types of zero-day attacks, it typically takes an organization 15 times longer to close a vulnerability than it does for the attackers to weaponize that vulnerability and exploit it. So basically, we're talking about one week for the bad guys to take a vulnerability one of those zero-day things. It takes one week to weaponize it, and it takes us about 102 days to patch it. Let that sink in for just a minute here. Once vulnerabilities get disclosed, It's a time-race here to either secure this hole before the bad guys to exploit it. Now we saw that with the Equifax breach where here's a major, major breach against a major company out there, and only happened because they hadn't applied the patches that they needed to apply. It's just really that simple. Microsoft has a patch let's give an example right now, BlueKeep. BlueKeep is a way to break into Microsoft machines. Microsoft released patches for BlueKeep in the May 2019 Patch Tuesday security fixes. Microsoft released it in May, and as of December 2019, seven months later, there were still over 700,000 machines at risk. Let me see here now May to June July, August, September, October, November, December. That, to me, sounds like seven months. That's huge. Sophos has some security software. In their recent report about WannaCry, which is ransomware. The patch against the exploit WannaCry was using has not been installed on a countless number of machines. Still despite being released more than two years ago. It's crazy, isn't it? Do you guys agree with me? Am I just being kind an alarmist? Now the average time to weaponize this is seven days. Many weaponization comes in less than seven days. Like the infamous ApacheStruts vulnerability. You have effectively 72 hours to harden new systems. Now the numbers are even worse. When we're talking about incident response. There's a new rule out from a company called CrowdStrike. You might have heard of them before, they've been in the news for some political stuff as well. But they are a security company. They do a lot of investigations after the fact and try to figure out what happened and try and clean things up. CrowdStrike has a new rule. It's called the 1-10-60 rule. And it's based on what they call breakout time. So here's what that is. Most nation-state actors, in other words, the more advanced hackers out there, move laterally from an initial attack within two hours on average. In other words, if there is a country that's coming after you say, for instance, China. Most say now it isn't like China is going to go after me. I'm not Military and not a military contractor. China comes after you to steal your intellectual property. Once they have gotten inside of your network, they will move around inside your system. What this means is it gives defenders of a network one minute to detect a breach, 10 minutes to understand what has happened and that it was a breach and one hour to contain that breach from the initial incursion. That is huge. Now, this is part of this meantime to hardening and goal response that we're trying to achieve. If you're a regular business, and it's six months before you even notice that a hack occurred, if you ever even notice, which is par for the course, and one that we see that quite frequently. We will come in and look for signs of hacking. Many times, companies don't want to know. They just want to know if there are any openings that they should be closing right now. Why? If you see a hack occurred, there are specific legal responsibilities that you have. Companies say, Listen, don't tell me, I don't want to know. Without monitoring and watching what our organizations are doing, if we're not at the very least, patching and hardening, we're in real trouble. Now, I know you guys know how to patch it's not that difficult to do. We're not going to spend a lot of time on that in the upcoming tutorials or courses, but we are going to spend a lot of time in the course on Hardening because it is one of your best defenses. It's kind of like having a package on the front porch that was just delivered by Amazon people, right? If there is no package on the porch, the porch pirates are not going to show up and to steal the box. It's the same type of thing here. If you do not have services available on your machines inside your network, there is no way for the bad guys to move laterally. There's no way for them to get in remotely. That is our goal in our hardening courses, how to harden your Windows machine. That's coming up in about a week, week and a half. So make sure you are on my email list. You get all of that free training. You can find out about the courses as well that we are putting together for this. All of that at Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. You're listening to me here on WGAN. You can always send questions to me -- me at Craig Peterson dot com. Hey, welcome back, everybody, Craig Peterson online at Craig Peterson dot com and right here on WGAN. I am also putting these up on Facebook and making them available on YouTube. For those that are interested.  I want to talk a little bit right now about Clearview AI. You know, again, I've said so many times that we've got to be careful with our data online. Clearview AI is this company that we talked about a few weeks ago, that has been scraping all of the information it could get online, mainly related to photographs. All of the pictures that you posted on Facebook or that you put up on any photo sharing sites, all of that stuff, Clearview scraped. Now, they have this app that allows you to take a picture, and then it will do facial recognition to find all of the places online that that picture appears. And it has been used by looks like more than 2200 different organizations, many of them police department to track people down. So if you have a picture, even if it's not a great picture, that picture can then be put into the clear view AI app. And it'll show you here you go, here's where we found this guy or gal online. And even if you didn't take the picture, and you are in a photograph, it is going to show up in clear view is going to find it. Now, Clearview AI grabbed all of these photographs online without asking permission of anyone. I don't think they asked your permission, did they? They didn't get my permission. They scraped them from Twitter, who they didn't ask permission. They scraped them from Facebook. They scraped them from all over the internet. They ended up with billions of photographs. They logged it all along with where they found them online. That way, if the police department is looking for this person, they have a photo of them. They can put it into the Clearview AI app and can authenticate where online it was found. And then the police department just goes there and says, Oh, well, that's a Mary Jane's homepage. Here's more about Mary Jane, where she lives and everything else and now off they go to get Mary Jane. Now remember, of course, first off, these things are not 100% accurate. They could be false. There are false positives, although in many cases, they have been very successful at identifying people, and they have helped to solve some crimes, which is I guess a good thing, right. I think that's what you might want to say, okay. In a notification that The Daily Beast reviewed, Clearview AI told them that there had been an intruder that gained unauthorized access to its list of customers, and they got access to many accounts they've set up and the searches they have run. Now, this disclosure also claimed that there was no breach of Clearview AI servers and that there was no compromise of Clearview AI systems or networks. That puzzles me makes me wonder, well, maybe they were using a cloud service, and they had it stored up there, and that's how it got stolen. It's hard to say. Clearview AI went on to say that it patched the unspecified hole that let the intruder in and that whoever was didn't manage to get their hands on their customer's search histories. Now there's a release from a Clearview AI attorney, and his statement said that security is Clearview AI top priority, which is total crap, right? They did everything they could to breach ethics and security of the user agreements from all of these websites from which they scraped our information. Unfortunately, data breaches their attorney says are part of life in the 21st century. Our servers were never accessed. We patched the flaw and continue to work to strengthen our security. All of this is in a report on naked security dot com. Now, this, frankly, is very concerning to me from several different standpoints, right. First of all, Clearview AI had this massive database of facial images that they had sold to hundreds of law enforcement agencies. In many cases, it wasn't like the overall agency. It was just a police officer themself that subscribed. It may be a detective, etc. The New York Times ran a front-page article in January, saying that Clearview AI may end privacy as we know it and man, is that ever true. They have been quietly selling access to these facial images and facial recognition software to over 600 law enforcement agencies. Now with this data breach, it looks like it's more than 2200. Although we have not seen the list posted online yet, we may end up seeing the posted online. It depends on who did this and if it was a nation-state, which is entirely possible. They are trying to find out a little bit more about us or whether it was somebody else.  It reminds me of a lot about the founding of Facebook and why I've been against Facebook over the years, right? Facebook had a very unethical at its start. They stole all the photos of women going to Harvard University and then had people be able to go to their little website and rate the women, right? Rate them? Yeah, on their looks using all stolen photos. That's the allegation behind it all. It certainly seems to be true. Microsoft, that's another reason I just, I don't use the word hate very often believe me, but I do hate Microsoft and the way they started. They unethically sued people and play games with trying to buy them by lying about the rights that they had. Bill Gates outright lying to IBM and others, back in the early days. I have a good friend of mine who says Craig if you didn't have any ethics, you would be one of the wealthiest people in the country. Your ethics kept you from doing them, yet you bent over backward to help people. Companies, like these need to go out of business and need to go out of business fast, it's crazy. We've got the Biometric Information Privacy Act that Clearview AI has violated. ClearView AI has also been told by Twitter, Facebook, Google, and YouTube to stop scraping. Those companies have ordered it to stop that. It is against the policies. The Times noted that there's a strong use case for ClearView AI technology finding the victims of child abuse. News. It makes a lot of sense. One, retired Chief of Police said that running images of 21 victims of the same offender returned nine or 14 miners identifications, the youngest of whom was 13. So where do we draw the law watch line, I should say, what should we be doing here? It goes back to the whole fruit of the poisoned tree principle that exists in the law. That you've seen on TV and in movies many times, any evidence illegally obtained can't be used nor anything that comes of that evidence. It is why some Federal investigators play games with where did you get this evidence? Russia? Did it come from Christopher Steele? Should we have something similar In this case, and I think that we should if they stole information from these companies, which they did. It's, frankly, intellectual property theft at the very least. That means it is of no use in any sort of a police case that started an investigation and any legal matters that follow. That's my opinion. I don't know what yours is. I'd love to hear from you email Me at Craig Peterson dot com. Thank God they were able to find some of these victims of child abuse. But at the same time here, we should have some rights to privacy. It may already be too late. I guess we'll know. Soon enough.  Hey, when we get back, we're going to talk about Barbara Cochran. She's the star of Shark Tank, and she just lost 400 grand in a scam will tell you all about it. You are listening to Craig Peterson and WGAN. And make sure you sign up online at Craig Peterson dot com. Hi, everybody. Yeah, that means we're back. Craig Peterson here on WGAN.  We're going to talk right now about a TV show that I have enjoyed watching over the years. There are a few shows that I watch pretty regularly. Of course, there are some sci-fi shows we won't talk about those right now. But a couple of them are The Profit I enjoy that show. I like the guy who is the main character on that show, and his name is Marcus Lemonis. He owns a considerable interest in Camping World, as well as GoodSam Club, and he invests in small businesses. I disagree with him almost 100% on politics, but he does try and help people out which I think is fantastic and, and he goes into these businesses that are struggling, that are trying to figure out how do we move to the next step or how do we even survive? Then he helps him out, and he frequently invests in them. When he invests, he takes a good chunk, usually enough so that he has a controlling interest in other words 51% sort of a thing. Then he's often running, and he helps build them into real successful companies. Now, I guess it goes back to the question of, would you rather have a small slice of a massive pie as an owner, or would you rather have 100% of a tiny pie, that may end up collapsing in on itself at some point in time. That's kind of the decision these people have to face as they are talking with him and trying to figure it out. So I like that show. He had a good episode, recently that I found very, very fascinating. Check that one out, The Profit. Another one that I've enjoyed over the years is Shark Tank. Now Shark Tank is if you haven't seen it, it is a show, and there are a number of them. It's called Dragon's Den overseas. There's one in the UK. There's a shark tank in Canada, and there's a shark tank in Australia, all called slightly different things. The idea behind Shark Tank is you go in there you make a pitch to these investors, and the investors decide if they're going to throw some money at you. They will make a deal saying okay, I'll give you 20% for 20% of your company, I'll give you this much money, or you know, I'll bring in people to help out, but I want controlling interest or whatever it is. Well, one of the business moguls on there that part of this whole judging team on Shark Tank just last week lost nearly $400,000. It was disclosed that the 400 grande loss came through an email scammer. Now, if she had been listening to this show, she would have known about it. She would have known what's happening. She has enough money that she kind of brushed it off. Oh well, she thinks that she'll never get the money back. And you know what? She's probably right. We've seen that happen many times, even with the FBI getting involved most of the time that money never, ever comes back to you. According to media reports, a scammer who was posing as Barbara Cochran's executive assistant forwarded to her bookkeeper an invoice requesting that payment. I'm looking at the email right now. Barbara released it, which is great as that way people can see what happened. It's an email it's from, Jake somebody. Sent on Friday, February 21, and addressed to Emily carbon copy Michelle. The subject was forward Invoice 873, and it's got the name of a German company. It begins, Hello Emily. Please see the attached invoice below for payment. We are ready to proceed, and we are shipping next week. Please ensure the invoice is paid on time, shipping charges are additional. It appears like a little real invoice. It's got the due date on it, which was due on the 27th, and the amount was $388,700 and 11 cents. And it looks as I said kind of like a standard invoice. Dear customer. Please see the attached invoice. Wire transfers should be directed to FFH concept GMbH address in Berlin, Germany. Bank details include the bank name, the account name, bank address As the IBN number, the swift number, thank you for your business, we appreciate it very much.  The truth was, this email did not originate from Barbara Cochran's executive assistant. Instead, what happened here is that the scammers and created an email address that looked the same as her executive assistant. It had one letter different in it. At first glance, it seems legitimate, yeah, this is from the Executive Assistant. You and I look at 400,000 and say, Whoa, wait a minute now. I don't even have that much. In this case, Barbara Cochran, this was pretty normal for her. There's not only this amount because she is involved in so many real estate deals. That's how she made her money was in real estate. She gets these invoices from these companies all over the world. It did not look that strange. All the bad guys, in this case, had to do was a little bit of research. They found out what the executive assistant's name, they found out what the email address was. The bookkeeper did not spot this little spelling error, if you will, in the email address. When she asked questions about the purpose of the payment, all communication went straight to the scammer's and not to the assistant. What did she do? She hit reply, and the response went straight to the scammers, and the scammers gave him what looked to be or gave her what appeared to be a reasonable answer, right. On Tuesday last week, seemingly satisfied by the answers she'd received by the scammers posing as Barbara Cochran's executive assistant. The bookkeeper transferred almost $400,000 into the bank account contract controlled by the scammers. It was only one the bookkeeper manually CC'd Cochran's assistant directly with confirmation that the invoice had was paid. It became clear what happened. So, again, that tells you don't respond to emails, right? Look it up, use a contact list, use your autocomplete to try and reach out to somebody to verify it. I always go one more step further, and that is to get on the phone and confirm the transaction. Now in speaking to people magazine, Barbara Corcoran again apparently was pretty okay about the theft. She says quote, I lost the 400,000 as a result of a fake email sent to my company. It was an invoice supposedly sent by my assistant to my bookkeeper, approving the payment for real estate renovation. There was no reason to be suspicious. I invest in quite a bit of real estate. I disagree with that there was reason to be suspicious. Anyhow, I was upset at first, but then remember, it's only money good for her. Frankly, she posted on Twitter about it. Lesson learned. Be careful when you wire money. She retweeted something from TMZ about her getting hooked in this scam. I'm glad she has a positive attitude about it. It's very unlikely, as I said earlier, that she'll ever recover a dime from these fraudsters because of the way the money was wired. Ninety seconds later is all it takes for the cash to be gone and out of reach. And they probably went ahead and transferred it from German banks to other banks, and it continues to move the money around. It's kind of like what happened in Eastern Europe and Ukraine, with a billion dollars in aid that we sent that ended up bouncing around between multiple companies in multiple countries to hide whose pocket it ended up. It's just kind of crazy. It can happen to anyone, and it can happen to any of us. Every last one of us, business person or otherwise, needs to be on guard. Don't reply to emails. Always make sure you enter in the email address if it's anything that might be of concern. Remember that banks and other places are unlikely, including the IRS tax time, to be sending you emails about some of this stuff. Just double-check and phone them, look them up online, and phone that number. Ask a question from their help people over on their website.  Well, we've got one last segment here, and we're going to be talking about new security features from Firefox that means insecurity to you. This is Craig Peterson on WGAN, and you know, I like Firefox, right? Hey, welcome back, everybody, Craig Peterson, here on WGAN and online Craig Peterson dot com. Well, that's Peterson with an -On dot com.  Hey, thanks for joining us today we've had a great day, we've talked about where you find a little bit of nostalgia online over at the Internet Archive. We talked about reducing the risk through data minimization. I described how ransomware became a multi-billion dollar industry. We talked about the changes that have recently happened with ransomware that will require you to make a change in what you're doing to stop becoming a victim. Then we got into how should you answer a non-technology related executive who asks you, how secure are we? How do you answer that question to your family as well? Because we are all the Calvary, right? We're the people that our friends, family, our people from church, the business people, they all come to us. So I wanted to make sure we covered that the next generation here of security metrics, how long does it take to harden your systems, and we've got a course coming up on that here in a couple of weeks and a bunch of tutorials to help you out. The company that we talked about clear view AI, very, very bad guys, frankly, very unethical. They just lost their entire database of Facebook buying clients to hackers. And then they brushed it off like it's no big thing. Hey, you know, everybody gets hacked nowadays. Man is talking about a company with no ethics at all. We talked about them, and then, of course, most recently, we just talked about business email compromise. We gave you a specific example here of Barbara Corcoran. She is one of the business moguls over on Shark Tank. How she lost almost $400,000 in a scam, and what you can do to help protect yourself. And we gave away some actual clues here precisely what the bad guys are doing to try and get that information or get us to to to do that, right? What kind of information are they gathering about us? Well, I want to talk about Firefox here for a few minutes, all web browser thing. And this has to do with security. And this is an article over on we live security.com that made me think about what is going on with Firefox and Mozilla. Now, if you've been on any of my training courses, you know, the browser you absolutely should never use ever, ever, ever unless there is a gun to your head, and then it's okay. Is Internet Explorer is just one of the worst browsers ever? You know, it's just terrible. It's right up there with the original browser, the NCSA Mosaic, but at least it was changing the industry. Internet Explorer was just a huge security hole. I mean crazy. The things that allowed programmers to do, and it was such an avenue for hacking. You know that right, don't ever use Microsoft's Internet Explorer.

Written, produced, and narrated by Remedy Robinson Twitter: @slowdragremedy Email: slowdragwithremedy@gmail.com Podcast music by https://www.fesliyanstudios.com Rate this Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/slowdrag ----------------------   Elvis Costello Wiki Resource, “A Voice in the Dark”: http://www.elviscostello.info/wiki/index.php/A_Voice_In_The_Dark   “A Voice in the Dark”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-CJTZMKh7E   Companion Blog: https://slowdragwithremedy.home.blog/2020/03/27/episode-37-a-voice-in-the-dark/   References: Episode 16 of “Slow Drag with Remedy,” “I Might Recite a Small Prayer.” It’s a slow drag with “Bedlam,” another gem from “National Ransom”: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/16-i-might-recite-a-small-prayer/id1478037117?i=1000456392629 Episode 17 Supplement of “Slow Drag with Remedy,” “The Quickening Art” https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/17-the-quickening-art/id1478037117?i=1000456956290 A slow drag with Live solo performance of “A Voice in the Dark,” with “Pennies from Heaven” Prelude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szu-y3n9ubg Elvis Costello in Isolation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfXyl0fBcTY&feature=youtu.be      So, until next time, Adieu, my little ballyhoo   "A Voice in The Dark" Lyrics: You can read right through a book of matches But that won't make you smart You can laugh in the face of watches But time will only break your heart Kings reign beneath umbrellas Hide pennies down in cellars And money pours down and yet Not everyone gets soaking wet When bores and bullies conspire To stamp out your spark Listen for… A Voice In The Dark Not a moment too soon as we blue the moon And a wolf began to howl in tune I announced for all mankind / A boon Stand aside you big baboon Now I'm the a prize invention You're the image of yourself Forget your cares your disapproving stares I'm not here to try to jump your borders Just ask your nieces and daughters I'm flat as sole, I'm happy as a clam But you don't know the kind of man I am Little fish swimming in a jealous shoal Now my net is overflowing And suddenly I seem to be all seeing and all knowing I got something right there You might want to hear I have no fear Lend a hand / Lend an ear If your rent-money is in arrears We'll be striking up a symphony bandstand Long of hair and loose of tooth There'll be pirouettes and startling handstands And who but acrobats know how to tell the truth When all is said and then redundant They gallivant in peg-leg pants I‘ll be your servant You'll be my pal and I'll be faithful you know I shall There's no fool like an old fool Who blames it all upon his youth When times are tough and you find you're down Without a star to wish upon Listen for… A Voice In The Dark I was striking through a box of matches Hoping that one would spark I heard somebody calling to me A voice in the dark A voice both wild and gentle Daring and confidential I thought there was music playing But it was all and only talk When liars and bullies conspire to stamp out spark Fill up that empty space in your heart Listen up as the herald says, "Hark" Believe in the voice in the dark…

"Now I'm where I want to be...." This week Jess & Andrew are once again joined by Brent Black aka brentalfloss to talk about Tim Rice's problematic musical "Chess." A lot is covered and Brent is super knowledgable and wonderful and you don't want to miss this!   Social Media: Our WEBSITE Musicals with Cheese on Twitter Jess on Twitter Andrew on Twitter Musicals W/ Cheese on Instagram Jess on Instagram Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com Use our Affiliate Link