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Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2022 70:12

It's so hard to believe that 2022 is coming to a close. Today is our last episode of the year! We have had so many inspiring guests on the podcast in 2022 and are so thankful to all of our listeners. No topic is off-limits in today's Q&A episode. Dr. Christine Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and founder of Sterling Parents. Meagan is here today asking Dr. Sterling questions sent in by our listeners. We cannot emphasize enough the importance of interviewing multiple providers, researching evidence-based information, and paying attention to how YOU feel about their responses! Additional LinksDr. Sterling's Instagram: @drsterlingobgynSterling ParentsBebo Mia's WebinarHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull Transcript Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar. Meagan: Hello, hello. You guys, this is our last episode of the year. 2022 has come and gone and I cannot believe it. So many things have changed this year as you know. Julie has left the company and I've been solo for a little bit. That was a big, big change for us, but I am doing one of our first, I should say one of my first, episodes with a birth professional Dr. Christine Sterling. I cannot wait for this episode to be aired because it's going to be amazing. Dr. Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and a founder of Sterling Parents which is a membership that provides the heart-felt support, expert advice, and timeless wisdom people deserve as they grow their families. After becoming a mother herself, she discovered first-hand how little support Western medicine offers to women moving through the life-altering transition into motherhood. Amen to that. It makes me sad. It breaks my heart how little support there is. So now as a mom, she is on a mission and dedicated to ensuring women get the maternal care and support they deserve. Dr. Sterling has developed a signature body, mind, and heart model of care combining cutting-edge science and ancient wisdom with her years of patient care, thousands of births, and long-standing meditation practice. So, Dr. Sterling, we are so happy that you're here. I am so happy. I still say we. We as in The VBAC Link. I don't know if you know, but I used to have a partner named Julie. We had been together for years and years and she has just recently left, so I just can't get out of the ‘I' and the ‘we'. I'm always going to be a ‘we'. Dr. Sterling: You know what? In medicine, we always talk about the ‘we' when you are part of a team, so I will oftentimes always use the ‘we'. Meagan: Yes, yes. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I did not cover, all of the amazing things that you do? Dr. Sterling: I think we will get all into it, but that is the long and short of it. Meagan: The long and short of it. There's so much because you are so amazing. Okay well then, we will just dive right in. Dr. Sterling: Let's do it. Meagan: As we were getting questions, a lot of people asked very similar questions. One of the number one questions that people are asking is how do you truly advocate for yourself? What is the best way to advocate for yourself? As a VBAC mom, you can feel very much against the world when you are entering a birth space, and sometimes when you are entering a birth space where there's an on-call provider like you said, when you work in a team and you don't know that person and you haven't really established the relationship of them knowing what you want, it can be hard and with different nurses and all the things. So what would you say is one of the best ways to advocate for yourself as a patient? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I think that sometimes the word ‘advocate' can sometimes put a lot of pressure onto the individual that, “I need to advocate.” Meagan: “I need to be strong.” Dr. Sterling: Yes, exactly and it feels like this really heavy weight. There's a mental weight to this, “I have to advocate to get what I need.” I completely understand where that comes from especially when you are wanting a VBAC. It can feel like there are policies going against you and that people aren't working with you, so I think that the first thing is to hopefully get into a therapeutic relationship with a midwife, a doctor, or a practice of doctors in which there is a collaborative relationship in which advocating isn't so heavy. It's a conversation. It is a discussion that you are having with each other. For me, I think that oftentimes physicians and patients are communicating to each other on different levels. We are not really understanding where the other party is coming from and we don't understand what's the tape that's playing in their mind. As a patient, you may be playing this tape of, “They're trying to get me to have a C-section and the odds are against me and I've got to fight my way through it.” And as a physician, you have a whole other tape playing. One of the things I encourage with my members is really, I share the behind the scenes and the thought process that is going on for their OBGYN when they're having that conversation so that the patient can show up with a perspective and in the space that creates that really strong, collaborative environment. I can go through some of the things that I typically talk to my members about with that, but I like to tell my members, “This is not about you having to advocate so hard for yourself, but rather to invite your provider into a collaborative relationship with you and there are ways that individuals can do that.” I want to caveat that with I wish that it wasn't something that patients had to do so much. I wish it was something that as physicians, we showed up in that space. A lot of physicians do, but not everybody does. I like to think of it as it's not the problem of each healthcare provider being, “Oh, you're bad and you should be showing up and collaborating with patients better.” It is a system problem very much. We have burnt-out physicians. We have hospitals that are coming down on them so we have a system that does not foster a collaborative relationship between patients and there are things that individual patients can do to invite their providers to have a more collaborative relationship. I wish patients didn't have to do that, but I do think that it can be beneficial. Meagan: For sure. I think sometimes too as a patient coming in, we do know that our providers are burning out a lot of the time. They don't have a ton of time, so you have a lot that you want to bring to the table, but at the same time, you hold back and restrict that because you don't want to drill your provider with a million questions. Sometimes the provider, although they really want to answer, they don't have time to have that conversation. Dr. Sterling: 100% yes. Meagan: It's not even that they don't want to, it's that they can't because they are seeing 60 patients that day. Dr. Sterling: Oh trust me, we would much rather, much rather—when physicians leave and stop taking insurance and go and do a private practice that is just cash-based, which that's how some physicians solve the burnout issue is, “You know what? I'm exiting the insurance realm,” because what do they do? They have longer appointments with their patients. They take fewer appointments. That's what we want. You only want to see 10 patients a day and give each patient 45 minutes. 100%. But you can't if you take insurance. We are locked into this system that makes us not able to have the type of therapeutic relationship with our patients that all of us at our core want. Some of us have awakened to the fact that the patients aren't the problem, the system is the problem. Some physicians will say, “Oh, the patient Is asking too many questions and I'm annoyed at the appointment.” But they're not saying, “You're not annoyed at the patient,” but that patient was paying whatever amount of money for that appointment and if you had a whole hour with them, you would be so happy to show up and educate. Meagan: Yes, yes. Well then and sometimes too on the patient side of things, we can see it as, “Oh, well my doctor is not supportive. My provider is not supportive because they don't even want to listen to me or they are very quick to answer.” From a VBAC standpoint, a lot of the time when we're coming into these providers to ask them these questions, we really want a heartfelt answer. Dr. Sterling: Of course you do. Meagan: We don't just want to hear ‘yes' or ‘no', so that's another one of the questions that a lot of people have asked is what are some of the signs or red flags I should be watching out for that maybe my provider although probably wonderful, may not be the best provider for me or for that patient, right? How can someone decipher through that and try to understand that that provider doesn't have a lot of time as well? There's this happy medium. What are some red flags or signs that you would say, “That might not be a good provider for you”? Dr. Sterling: Perfect, so there are two main issues here. One, how do we have a conversation about VBAC when we have so little time? I want to address that. The first question though is, what are the red flags? How do you know if you have the right provider to support you in having a VBAC? This is actually really, really simple and very easy to do. What you're going to do is you're going to go to your provider and you're going to say, “What do you think about VBAC?” You're going to be quiet. You're not going to lead them to that you want a VBAC. Nothing. And just let them talk. If you have a provider who is like, “You know, VBACs makes me really nervous. I'll do them but they make me really nervous and I've been burned. I've had some bad experiences.” Or if you have someone who's like, “I love VBAC. When I get a pregnant person who has a quote-on-quote ‘successful VBAC', it makes me happy. It makes my day.” Those are very different people, right? It's not that somebody who has that more negative view of VBAC can't provide you with appropriate medical care, but it's that whole extra level of your experience. Do you know what I mean? If you are going for a VBAC and you feel like your provider already has the scalpel in your hand, it puts extra stress and extra pressure on you to advocate for yourself whereas the person who is in a relationship with someone who loves a VBAC is like, “We're doing it together. We're collaborating.” Also, when that provider who loves VBAC and who is gungho with you says, “You know what? We've got to call it. Let's do it.” You come to that from a place of, “You know what? I trust this person. I know she wanted this for me and I trust that what she's telling me right now that I really do need—” Meagan: It is best. Dr. Sterling: It is best. That's why I think you just ask a question. Stay very quiet. Don't let them know how you feel about VBAC or that you want a VBAC and you just let them tell you their perspective. Both providers can provide excellent medical care, but you want to be in an environment with someone who's into it and who's excited about VBAC. Meagan: Yeah, who's just going to create that extra level of experience because like you said, this provider over here may be more hesitant and is quote-on-quote going to let you ‘try' but may not have that extra oomph, energy, and positivity in your experience but you still might get your VBAC with that provider. That doesn't mean that they're not totally unsupportive. We talk about tolerance and stuff like that, but yeah. This other provider over here may be the perfect provider for your experience. Dr. Sterling: Exactly. There are really great physicians who have attempted VBACs themselves and had bad experiences. The reality is that physicians are human beings and we bring our experiences to the table. Too, ideally, we would maybe do a little less than that but that's just the reality of human beings. We are bringing our experiences to the table. If we've been burned, it can be hard to work past that. Meagan: Well and just like you were saying at the beginning, that provider might be playing a different tape in their head and that was based on their experience, right? Okay, I love that. Anything else you want to touch on with that? Dr. Sterling: Oh, so in terms of the VBAC, how do you have this conversation with your provider about VBAC? I want us to look at having the conversation about VBAC over an entire pregnancy. Please do not try to fit it in—it is okay to start talking about VBAC at maybe not your first appointment because there's so much going on with all of that, but it's okay to start talking about it in the first trimester. I'm a big proponent of that. I'm a big proponent of and I believe that a lot of pregnant people are carrying around this mental weight of uncertainty and unanswered questions and concerns and worries. For me, part of having the VBAC discussion early is let's start relieving some of that weight. So that's really important is if it's on your mind and if your provider is saying, “You know, we'll talk about that closer,” just say, “You know what? I get it. I'm so far away from my VBAC. I totally get it but it's on my mind and I think that it would really help with my stress levels and with my quality of life if I can start having some of these questions answered now so I don't have to carry them around for my whole pregnancy.” Meagan: Right, yeah. Something that one of our followers asked was about—I'm sure you've heard of it—bait and switch where they seem supportive and then at that last minute where you really start talking about it, they kind of shift their gears. Sometimes I feel like if we can do what you said and start talking about it in the first trimester then we may recognize earlier on whether that provider and you are a good match or not because the bait and switch a lot of times feels like it comes at the end where they're like, “Yeah. Yeah, we're supportive,” but they're never having that full conversation. There are so many questions but like you said, there's a whole pregnancy so we can keep asking these questions at each visit taking a little time that a provider does have and having that to avoid that final trimester, the last few weeks, feeling like your provider just switched on you. So I don't know if there's anything that you want to talk about with bait and switch. It seems very negative to talk about people doing a bait and switch but it does happen where providers shift their gears and it sucks to be in that spot at the end. Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so the parting line of the OBGYNS—if you're in the United States and you're an OBGYN, ACOG encourages VBAC. We want people to VBAC. We want people to VBAC. So what it often is is that you're kind of getting the parting line at the beginning of pregnancy because it's far off and it's like, “Yeah, yeah. We support VBAC. You can do a VBAC,” whatever. And then push comes to shove and you do understand that “Oh, this provider has some more nuance to their support for VBAC.” You know? I think it's again, it is about talking to them about and asking very—sometimes you want to hear what you want to hear. Sometimes we have to ask the hard questions and ask in a non-leading way because human beings and all of us to some degree are people pleasers. It's just a natural human behavior thing. So if you can just say, if you can ask more-detailed questions like, “Is there anything about me and what happened to me last time and my personal, medical, and obstetric history that makes you more nervous or reticent to recommending a VBAC?”Understanding that what you're getting at there is yes, you're getting at their medical assessment of what kind of candidate you are for a trial of labor after a C-section, but also, you're getting an idea of what are they going to bring up at the end of pregnancy? Is there anything that I can address now? And really, it is okay to evaluate your provider as you move through and make sure that you are on the same page. Meagan: Yeah, for sure. I love that. I love that question. Write that down, listeners. Write that down. Okay, so one of the questions is, of the VBACs that you have seen, what are some of the things that have stood out to you about TOLAC and about people who go for a VBAC? Is there anything good and bad that you're like, “Okay, this is something that stood out to me in a positive way or this is something that I never knew about and then I saw this and now I'm watching for this for the future births”? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I talk about this thing with my members all of the time. The thing that I have found to be most important when we're thinking about the mode of birth is to understand that the most important thing is that regardless if you end up with a repeat C-section or you end up with a successful vaginal birth after a C-section, what we want is somebody who had as empowering of an experience as possible. Hopefully, it was also a beautiful, empowering experience. You can have a beautiful birth experience by having a C-section and have it with a vaginal birth. What I have my members do is have them come up with their birth values. We usually stick to three or five. What are your birth values? And understand the why behind it. “I want a vaginal birth because—” what's my why? And underneath that, there's oftentimes some really good stuff, and if you can bring that to the surface, those values. “I want to feel present in my birth. I want to feel that I have autonomy over my body.” It's different for everybody, but these values come up and what's important is that we talk about how you can honor those values and those deep desires regardless of the mode of birth so that if we set up, “I want a vaginal birth and that is the success for me and if I don't get that, I have failed. The birth has failed” if you can fail at giving birth. What we want to do is to work towards a vaginal birth while also acknowledging that at the core, even if the vaginal birth doesn't happen, we want these values to be honored. Let's talk through how we can honor these values in a C-section. What can we do to prepare you for a C-section that is beautiful and I will tell you, some of the births that really stick out in my mind from experiences I've had with patients were the most beautiful belly births. I mean, really beautiful experiences and experiences that still bring tears to my eyes. I think a lot of times we act like the only time birth can be beautiful is if it's vaginal. Meagan: Is if it's vaginal, yeah. It's not true. Dr. Sterling: It's not true. Oh my gosh. The births actually that I think about the most in terms of a beautiful birth experience was a belly birth. That was me as a provider. That's not me as my personal birth experiences but they can be really, really beautiful birth experiences. Meagan: Yeah, with my second it was undesired. I didn't want a second Cesarean, but it was a beautiful experience and I will cherish it forever. It helped me grow and it helped me heal from my first one too. Okay, I love that. The next question is about induction and VBAC. At what weeks would you suggest induction for VBAC in general and I know further down in the questions there is when would you suggest induction for VBAC with gestational diabetes? Maybe they're the same. Maybe they differ, but yeah. That's one of the questions. Induction and VBAC are also controversial depending on the provider. Dr. Sterling: So the issue with induction with VBAC is that two things are true. This is the part that really trips people up. We have some data that an induction at 39-40 weeks with a VBAC may increase your chances of a vaginal delivery. We also have data that people who go into labor on their own have a higher chance of having a VBAC with a trial of labor so both things are true. If we had a crystal ball and knew that you were going into labor on your due date with a VBAC, we would not induce you before that because that would be best for you to go into labor on your own. However, if we had a crystal ball and we knew that you were not going to go into labor and you would need to be induced at 41 weeks and 5 days, we would have wished that we had induced you at 39 weeks. There is no right answer here. I'm a huge believer in membrane sweeps for people who really want a vaginal birth. Ideally, around 39 weeks, I've had many membrane sweeps myself. They are not necessarily the most pleasant experience. Meagan: And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Dr. Sterling: Sometimes they don't. So membrane sweeps reduce the chance that you will need a formal induction of labor. They are kind of considered a method of induction so we usually don't do them too early. They reduce the chance that you will need a formal induction of labor. On average, they are going to shorten your pregnancy by about four days. They don't always work to put you into labor, but with a VBAC, we also want to think about how much medication we have to give you if we do need to induce you. We would like to reduce the amount of medication we give you so that may help your cervix just be a little bit more ripe, ready, and primed for labor. We don't have data to support this so that's why I'm saying this. It may be helpful to reduce the amount of Pitocin we need to use for your induction. That's why I'm a big proponent of membrane sweeps in the right patient and with informed consent. That is very, very critical because unfortunately, that does not always happen and that's absolutely not acceptable for someone to undergo a membrane sweep without informed consent. Meagan: Right, going over anything. Yeah, I love that. Like you said, it's so hard because there's no crystal ball. You have to go through and look at where you're at and what's best for you and your situation. Another question about induction is, are there any methods you will or will not use? We do know through the history of Cesarean, there are certain things like Cytotec that we really don't use but then there are random providers out there who you will hear give Cytotec and things like that. Dr. Sterling: And your other question about gestational diabetes, when you are induced for gestational diabetes depends on how well your glucose is being controlled, if it's requiring medications, and oftentimes, your provider is going to prioritize the recommendations for your gestational diabetes induction especially if you are on insulin or say your fasting glucose is not where we want it because with some types of gestational diabetes and with certain levels of control, there is that increased risk of stillbirth, that is typically where they will put the priority. So if your glucose is poorly controlled, even if it might be the best thing for your potential VBAC to be induced at 38 weeks, if you have poorly controlled glucose and we are looking at an increased risk of stillbirth because gestational diabetes is mostly a risk when the glucose isn't well-controlled, then your provider is going to say, “Yeah. It might not be the best thing for a VBAC situation,” but for the health of the pregnancy, this is going to be our recommendation. I just wanted to answer the gestational diabetes question. Meagan: Yes, so let's go back into induction methods and what you've seen. We talked a little bit about membrane sweeping and I am going to quickly run. My daughter is sick and screaming for me so keep talking. I'm going to block my screen out for a second and I'll be right back, but if you want to talk about induction methods. And maybe too, what you've seen work better and maybe also where the cervix is or not. Does that make sense? If you're not dilated at all, how can you induce and all of those things? Dr. Sterling: There is a bit of a question mark when it comes to induction with a trial of labor after a C-section. There are medications that most OBGYNS are not going to use. Cytotec is one of those medications that when we are inducing labor at term, we don't like to use because there is some data that it has a higher risk of uterine rupture which is when the scar of the uterus breaks open. We really, really want to do everything we can to avoid that. That's the complication that we are most concerned about with We really, really want to do everything we can to avoid that. That's the complication that we are most concerned about with a TOLAC. Some providers won't do any kind of medication for an induction. They'll only do mechanical, so membrane sweeping, the Foley balloon or a Cook balloon. They'll do ruptured membranes, but once it comes to any medication, that will be a hard stop for them. The reason why some providers don't use Pitocin is that we don't have enough data to say that this level of Pitocin is a-okay but once you get to this level, that's where we see the increased risk. We know that using Pitocin can increase the risk of rupture, but we don't know where the line is. So some providers are like, “Okay. In that setting with that doubt, I'm just going to say no to Pitocin altogether,” whereas other providers will say, “You know what? We will use a lower dose protocol for our people who are undergoing a trial of labor and inform the that we are going to use Pitocin.” It does slightly increase the risk of rupture, but it's not unreasonable to use Pitocin. It isn't, but the person has to be informed that this may increase the risk of rupture. We're going to use a lower-risk protocol to try to mitigate that risk, but we don't actually have the data to say, “This amount is okay. This amount isn't okay.” And so this is where it comes to how different providers land when there's nuance and when there's gray. Some providers are going land in the, “No. I don't want to do anything that could increase your risk of rupture,” and other providers are saying, “Hey, if you're aware of this risk and you're okay with it, I'm okay doing Pitocin.” It just depends. Meagan: Yeah. I know it's such a hard one because there are different providers. With my second, I was begging for Pitocin. First of all, who begs for Pitocin? Not normal, not a lot of people, but I was begging for it. He was like, “No, no, no, no,” but then I was a doula and I started working and I was like, “Wait. There are all of these providers doing Pitocin, but then there are also providers that won't.” It's like you said, “Okay, I'll a Foley or a Cook, or I'll break your water. And sometimes I'll use Pitocin if we have an IUPC and we can monitor the strength.” So it's just so hard. Again, it's one of those questions where there are two answers. Dr. Sterling: That's the thing is that there are some things in medicine and some things in obstetrics where you will get clear answers. That's always really comforting as a patient to be like, “Oh. Everybody agrees on this. Okay. I feel comfortable.” But then when you get to the situations where there is a gray zone and there is nuance and you see some providers doing something this way. Where I trained, they gave Pitocin for vaginal births. That was my standard practice. I left residency and I joined a practice and they were like, “No. We as a group do not do Pitocin for TOLAC.” And so it was like, “Oh, okay. This is different.” Patients would ask me what my perspective is and I'm like, “My perspective is that I'm used to doing this and I think that it can be done safely, but I'm part of a practice where that is a no-go.” Meagan: That is restricted. Dr. Sterling: We're restricted. So you know, one physician could feel a certain way about what they do but then be in a setting where this is not how it's done. Meagan: And that's hard too because a lot of time, they would be viewed as unsupportive, but it's actually not that they're unsupportive but that they're restricted. From a patient's point of view, we have to remember that sometimes it's not that the provider doesn't want to, it's that they can't within the practice that they're in. And again, that's where it's like, “Okay, well maybe that practice isn't the right practice for you.” Dr. Sterling: Exactly. Even if you were with me and you loved me, you're like, “I love Dr. Sterling. We get along so well,” but her practice and some physicians are their own bosses. A lot of physicians are employed and they are dealing with an employed physician that has a group that says, “We don't do this and you are an employee and not an owner of the practice.” Then you're like, “I love her, but she can't offer me Pitocin so I may have to go with someone else, and maybe I don't have the rapport that I had.” So it's unfortunately with physicians, oftentimes you're compromising on something. The question is what do I need? What are my non-negotiables within the practice? Stay firm on those. Your non-negotiables are your non-negotiables. Be clear. Some people may say, “You know what? I don't like that they don't offer Pitocin but the rapport is more important to me.” Other people may say, “You know what? I need to go somewhere that's willing to induce me if that's what I need with Pitocin.” Meagan: Yeah, with my third, I really wanted a VBAC again and I had a super supportive provider. He was top-notch supportive and known in Utah as one of the most supportive providers, but in the end and at the end of things, I was just feeling like I shouldn't be there. Everyone was like, “Why? You have the most supportive provider,” and I'm like, “Because I know that he's going to be restricted. I don't want to have that restriction although there are other providers who just don't have restrictions but not as many,” so I changed. I had a VBAC after two Cesareans and it was beautiful and amazing. Maybe I would have with that provider but I don't know knowing my birth story. I think he would have been cut off. He wouldn't have wanted to but he would have been cut off. Okay, so one of the questions was is a C-section always safer than a vacuum or a forceps delivery? So if you're coming to the point where you're pushing and you're about to get this VBAC and you're so close, but you might need an extra little bit of assistance, do you feel like a Cesarean is quote-on-quote “safer” or a better route than those other assisted delivery methods? Again, everybody has a different perspective and their history of using these things might come into play. But just share some of your thoughts. Dr: Sterling: You can't make a blanket statement that a Cesarean is always safer than a vacuum delivery or a vacuum is always better than a Cesarean. It really is each individual situation. What I can tell you is that if the vacuum is successful, if the forceps are successful and you have a vaginal birth and baby is okay and you're okay, then yeah. That was a better decision than going for a C-section in the second stage of labor. C-sections in the second stage of labor are not risk-free. As we know, there are a lot of risks to that too. The thing that becomes the more unsafe situation is when you have a failed vacuum or a failed forceps and then you go to a C-section. Meagan: That's what I was going to ask. Dr. Sterling: That situation, we want to avoid because that's the highest risk situation. Failed vacuum, failed forceps, then go to a C-section. If we knew that was going to happen, it would have been way better to go straight to a C-section than to attempt a vacuum. So I think that what I would want if I was in that situation, I was going through a trial of labor and my provider offered me a forceps or a vacuum. I would want to know their confidence level with that. I would not want to be the one pushing, “Can we try a vacuum? Can we try a forceps?” I would want the other person on the end of the table saying, “I think we've got this. I think if I just put a vacuum on real quick, we're going to pop that baby out and we're going to be good. We're going to have a baby.” I want that level of confidence. I want somebody who's like, “Let's do this. I have no problem. I think we've got it.” I do not want somebody who's like, “Mmm, we could.” Meagan: We could, we could. Dr. Sterling: If it was me at the other end of the table, somebody saying, “We could,” is like are you feeling good about this? Meagan: Are you confident? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, when you're about to do a vacuum, I've never done forceps. On the West coast, very few people do forceps. On the East coast, a lot more people are still doing forceps. West coast, we have them on labor and delivery, but not something that we did. It was some reasons for that and some of it is medically legal, just the lawsuits from forceps, departments are like, “We don't do forceps anymore. We're not doing that.” There are patients where I've been like, “Let's do a vacuum. I think with a few pulls, this baby's going to come out,” and then there are vacuums where it's like, “Listen, I could do this. There's a shot,” but I didn't feel really good about it and in that setting, I was always super honest with patients that if they were highly, highly motivated for that vaginal birth, they might be willing to take that risk of, “I'm thinking there's a 50/50 shot here,” but me personally, I would want a provider to feel really good that it's going to work. Meagan: It's going to be [inaudible]. Yeah. That makes sense. Another question, we're just drilling out the questions here. This person had felt during her VBAC, and she did have a VBAC, but she felt burning sensations around her previous incision. She wants to know what that could have been. Could it have been scar tissue? Could it have just been that baby was passing through and stretching out that weakened uterine spot? I will admit, I had that a couple of times with my VBAC where it felt like a muscle being strained. Dr. Sterling: That's how my first labor felt was burning— Meagan: In your abdominal cavity. Dr. Sterling: Yep and I've had other patients where that's how they described contractions was this burning, stretching pain. My thought is that I can't answer that question specifically, but that could have nothing to do with the fact that you had a scar in you because that was my first labor experience. It felt like that, but then with my other labor experiences, the contraction pain felt different. People experience contraction pain differently and depending on the baby. My contractions when I had a baby who was sunny-side up when he was occiput posterior, they felt different than the contractions that I had with my other kids. It could have something to do with the scar, but also, it could just have been how your contractions felt. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Mine seemed like it was a variant. Right before I started pushing. Maybe baby was just descending and the wider part was stretching. I don't even know. I don't know the details as far as her labor. She just said that she had it. Could it have been scar tissue or what could it have been? Dr. Sterling: It's always so difficult to point out what the cause is of a bodily sensation, but I think that there are a lot of different possibilities of what it could be. Some of them are related to a scar and some of them have nothing to do with a scar. Meagan: Yeah. There was another one in regard to talking uterine scar and VBAC. She said that after her first C-section, she was told that the lower uterine segment was thinner, so she was saying, “Could I still VBAC? Is this a total hard no, I absolutely shouldn't VBAC?” What are your thoughts on that? Dr. Sterling: It's an area of active research. It's an area of active research looking at, can we on ultrasound or even MRI measure the lower uterine segment and thus determine the risk of rupture and successful VBAC? It's still a question mark here, but if you do have an extremely thin lower uterine segment, sometimes we open people up after they've had a C-section and there's a window, right? Meagan: Yeah, that's another one of the questions. They said they had a window. I've actually had a window as well. Dr. Sterling: Yeah. So the window depends. Some of the research didn't really define what is a uterine rupture. Is a uterine rupture only when you get in and you open up the belly and the tissue is bleeding and it's clear that it's just ruptured and this was previously tissue that was together? Or what if you open up the abdomen and you look and there's this separation but it looks like it had been there for a while? Is that a uterine rupture or a uterine window? Not all of the research and the data have clearly said, “This is what we consider a uterine rupture. This is what we consider a uterine window.” Meagan: Or dehiscence. Dr. Sterling: Or a dehiscence, exactly. There are all of these different terms. There's a window, dehiscence, and rupture. Meagan: But sometimes it goes to rupture. Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I think that personally in this gray zone of where the cut-off is for how many millimeters we want to see the lower uterine segment, it's hard for me to separate that from my own personal experiences having patients have uterine ruptures and have them go through these long labors and then open them up and they've got a window. I think that I would lean more towards if my physician was telling me, “Hey, you have a really thin lower uterine segment,” I personally would probably lean more towards a repeat C-section in that setting because to me, if I'm thinking about being in labor and also having the weight of, “What if my uterus ruptures?” If that weight is too heavy, I feel like that's not what I want to feel and that fear. Meagan: That constant questioning. Dr. Sterling: That constant questioning, and “Oh, they said it was thin. Am I making the wrong choice?” That to me would be very heavy. That isn't necessarily how another person would feel. What I think is important to think through for you as an individual is, “Is that fact that you have been told that you have this thin lower uterine segment? Is that going to be really prominent and heavy for you when you are in labor or do you still feel light? Does your body still feel light and you still feel like that's the right choice moving forward, that's the right path?” With my members, when I take them through—we have our confidence in VBAC path—when I take them through that, I have them ask their body. Ask your body, “Is this a yes and a no?” You have to figure out, “What does a yes feel like in your body? What does a no feel like in your body?” Ask your body, “Does this feel good or does this not feel good?” And then that's part of making a confident decision about whether you go forward with a repeat C-section or a trial of labor. That doesn't make the decision for you because you still get to ask your mind and you still get to ask your emotions and you still get to have a collaborative relationship with your provider, but you need to know how your body feels about the decision. Meagan: Yeah, we talk about intuition all of the time and digging deep into what is that saying. What is that intuition saying? A lot of times, that's the first thing where it's like, “I shouldn't have a C-section,” or “I want a C-section”, but then it's like, “Oh, there's this VBAC thing. Maybe.” But our initial gut was saying, “I think I should have a C-section,” or vice versa, “I want a VBAC.” Dr. Sterling: 100%. Meagan: I think that's such a good thing, talking to your body, asking your body. I love that. Okay. I know we don't have a ton of time left over, but a few more questions we have. Would you suggest an ECV for frank breech wanting to VBAC or would you just say C-section or would you say maybe find a provider if there is one in your area that could support that? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, okay. Meagan: Breech is a whole other podcast. Dr. Sterling: Breech is a whole other thing and it's so funny. For me, when people talk about breech vaginal delivery, all OBGYNs have birth trauma themselves. It's called the second victim. We all carry. I don't know a single OBGYN out in the world who doesn't have their own trauma from birth. One of my traumas is breech. Of course, this is an unplanned breech so it's different. I have to always calm myself when breech vaginal birth is brought up because I want to talk about it in an impartial way. An ECV, an external cephalic version, when we do a procedure to turn baby from a non-cephalic, non-head presenting position down into the head presenting position is going to increase your chances of having a vaginal birth. We know that. It also has some risks to it. Some of the risk is that your water breaks. We cause a placental abruption. We cause the placenta to separate. We injure the fetus. That would be super rare, but it's always something that we educate people about. I've never seen it but it could certainly happen. One of the things is that we typically do an external cephalic version before 39 weeks because we know it's more successful. We typically do them around 37 weeks. If your water does break at 37 weeks because you had an ECV, then we've got to do a C-section at 37 weeks and that's a higher-risk situation for your baby. We want babies to get to 39 weeks if we can. There is that risk of an earlier delivery or an emergency C-section because something happened, but it does increase your chances of vaginal birth. To me, it's how confident is your provider that they can turn the baby? It depends. There are different characteristics of a person and of how good of a candidate they are for ECV. If you have a provider who's like, “I'm super confident.” Sometimes I'd be ultrasounding patients and I'm like, “I feel like I could in the office, I'm not going to do it, but I feel like I could push this baby down. There's a lot of laxity to the uterus. Baby seems to be letting me move them.” So sometimes, it's like this is a very clear yes. Sometimes it's a very clear no. Meagan: Then there's all of the gray. Dr. Sterling: Yeah and then there's everything in the middle. So what risk do you feel comfortable with? If you want to be able at the end of the day to say, “I did absolutely everything to get that vaginal birth,” then yeah. ECV may be the way to go for you. Most of the time, even if it doesn't work, everybody's fine. But there's that 1% of the time where we're running back to the OR because baby is having a heart rate deceleration and not recovering. I have certainly been in that situation more than once so it happens. It's not common, but I don't classify it as rare. Meagan: But also not that it doesn't happen. Yeah. It's just less common. Dr. Sterling: Yeah. To me, rare things are things that I may never see but if I see them every year I'm doing it, to me, that is not rare. Meagan: Right. Right. Someone asked if you've ever seen VBAC after multiple Cesareans. ACOG says VBAC after two Cesareans is reasonable for VBAC, but it really kind of falls of the ledge after that. VBAC after three, four, all of the things and we know they happen. They're out there, but there is very little research. So someone just said, “What about a VBAC after three C-sections?” What would you say and again, I think it's important to note that it depends on every certain person that you're with and it also depends on your whole history and the reasons and all of those things, but anything that you would like to bring to the table for VBAC after 3+ Cesareans? Dr. Sterling: After more than two C-sections, yeah. At the end of the day, you have to consent to a Cesarean. You have to consent to a Cesarean. A Cesarean cannot be performed on you without your consent unless you were unconscious and you were brought into the ER and we needed to perform a Cesarean to save your life or you are not medically capable of making your own medical decisions. Meagan: Usually then, they have someone else too. Dr. Sterling: Sometimes. I trained at the place where we got most of the data on VBAC. I trained at LA County Hospital, USC. That's where back in the heyday of 1% of the US population was born there. It was such a maternity ward that we got the data on VBAC because we couldn't get those patients back to the OR. They were giving birth in the halls. So a lot of the VBAC data, the initial VBAC data comes from where I trained. Where I trained, we had a lot of people who would come in and give birth and they were very unfortunate stories and circumstances with drug abuse, homelessness, and mental illness. They would not know how many C-sections they had had. They would be coming in and they would give birth and sometimes after they gave birth, we would dig in through the charts looking for who this person could be and we found out that person had had four Cesareans before. Meagan: Wow. Dr. Sterling: I have been part of that. I have never had a patient who had three C-sections where we did that intentionally. I want to be upfront about that, but I think that it's all about what had happened. Let's say your first birth was a C-section for breech and then you go on to have a vaginal birth and then you had another C-section for breech and then you had another vaginal. If you've had multiple vaginal births, then you've had three C-sections, then I'm like, yeah. You are at increased risk of rupture. You've got three scars on your uterus for sure, but that's a very different situation than somebody who's had three C-sections in a row for failure to progress and then you're like, “You haven't had a vaginal birth. We are just putting you at a lot of risk with very little prospective of it being successful.” I have never been in a situation where somebody has had three C-sections and we've made the decision to proceed despite the risk with vaginal birth, but I have been part of deliveries where they had had multiple C-sections and we didn't know because they were actively giving birth and were not able to communicate how many C-sections they had to us. Meagan: That's an interesting thing to me in my mind. In so many ways, I wonder. Like you said, you didn't know. But if you would have known, would care have changed? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, it probably would have. We would have made a different recommendation because-- Meagan: Because of what you knew. Dr. Sterling: To us, getting up to a 2% risk of rupture or higher, it's a difference of perspective on percentages in a risk. As a physician, 2% is a lot of freaking people. That's 2 out of every 100 and when you're doing hundreds of deliveries a year, that 2% with a potentially very dire outcome, that 2% weighs much more heavily than somebody who's like, “Well, 2% is so small.” There's a whole different weight to that 2%. Meagan: Well, and we talk about that. We talk about how you have to decide what percentage is enough for you. If 2% is fine, then go find that provider that is supportive in that because it might not be like you said, a 2% from your standpoint is a lot but then to someone else, it might not be a lot. Dr. Sterling: Exactly, exactly. Meagan: It's interesting, yeah. Okay well, that's good to know. That's just so interesting. I wouldn't have even thought of that. You don't even know the history and you have to go find out who that person is. Wow, I'm sure that was an experience. Dr. Sterling: Unfortunately, I had that experience quite a bit. Meagan: Oh my goodness, yeah. Crazy. Okay well, last question. This one is what can cause a swollen cervix and what would you suggest if anything to help get that unswollen? Is there anything from an OB standpoint that you can do to help the swelling? This is something that a lot of people are like, “Oh, well I went in and I was 8 centimeters dilated and then all of a sudden, I was a 5.” It's not that you are literally going backward, but swelling can happen based on a lot of things like disruptions of checks and heads and babies' heads and all of these things, but yeah. Anything you would like to speak to about swollen cervix? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, we don't necessarily know why sometimes the cervix swells. It's a really unfortunate situation. What I have seen anecdotally in my experience is oftentimes when a cervix swells and then I have ended up doing a C-section not just for cervical swelling because that's not an indication for a C-section, but if that person did not progress after that is oftentimes, we have found that baby is not in the optimal position to move down the birth canal. That is something I have experienced personally and it's very frustrating because when you're in labor and when you're giving birth, you feel like it's all you and your body. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves. I want to remind people that you are only half of the equation at birth and babies can be cooperative and they can be very uncooperative. I have had an uncooperative baby and it was really, really hard. We can try things like Benadryl. We can try. Sometimes, it's like, if everything is safe, if you're on Pitocin, maybe we turn it down. We just give it a little break. We can try some Benadryl. We can try some Tylenol. These are things that are aimed at anti-inflammatory. Meagan: Do you take that orally, I assume? Dr. Sterling: You can, or you can give it intravenously if somebody is not tolerating oral. There are some mixed data out there about Tylenol and about Benadryl and their use in labor. But fixing the swelling once it's occurred doesn't always happen. Sometimes you can dilate past it. You certainly can dilate past it and I have seen that many times, but I think that the important thing to keep in mind is that it's not something that you have done wrong. We don't necessarily know why sometimes that happens. It may be that baby's just not in the ideal position because really, baby is dilating your cervix. It's this nice feedback loop whereas baby descends into the birth canal, it sends signals into your brain to release oxytocin. It's a collaborative process between you and baby. I have had three births and in my first birth, I pushed four contractions and baby was out, phenomenal. Then all of a sudden, my third birth, I was pushing for an hour and nothing. Not a budge. Not a budge. We thought that maybe he was sunny-side up, but we also knew that he was big. He was essentially 11 pounds when he was born, so he was big. I was so down on myself. I was like, “I shouldn't have pushed the epidural button the last time. Why did I forget how to push?” Meagan: You blamed yourself. Dr. Sterling: Oh my gosh and I know better, but I did. I was blaming myself like, “Why can't I do this? How did I forget to push?” OB comes in and she's like, “Yeah, I agree with you. I think he's OP. I can try a manual rotation.” I looked at her and I was like, “Girl, just do it.” Meagan: That's another one of the questions by the way. Dr. Sterling: So she goes in and she does. Listen, she was better at manual rotation than I am. I have not had as much success. The fact that this manual rotation worked was a little bit of a surprise to me because in my experience it has always been really hard to do. She went in. She pushed him up. She turned him down and he came out. I didn't even have to push. The whole time, I'm thinking, “I'm not pushing correctly. How did I forget how to push?” putting all of the pressure on myself. There we go. It wasn't me. It wasn't me. Meagan: I love that. That just gave me the chills. Dr. Sterling: I didn't even have to push. I had to push past my perineum but he came all the way to crowning once he was in the proper position and that was a huge eye-opening moment for me. I instantly felt bad for all of the patients who I had coached and tried to get to push correctly. I was like, “What?” Meagan: Yeah. Dr. Sterling: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: We really do as a society. We need to stop not just in birth but in all things. Motherhood, so many things like, “I'm a bad mom because I did this” or “Oh, this happened.” We put so much pressure and going right back to the very beginning of this whole conversation is being an advocate saying that we have to advocate for ourselves, it puts all of this extra pressure because not only are we saying that you have to go into labor. You have to dilate. You have to efface. You have to bring your baby down in the right position. Then you have to push the baby out. Then you have to nurse the baby. All of these things, right? So it's like, why are we adding all of this extra pressure onto ourselves where you were doing all of the right things? You were doing everything but it was just this little factor that you needed to change and it was out of your control. You were trying to do everything you possibly could. Dr. Sterling: Exactly. Meagan: I love it. And going back, I said the last question but that was one of the questions. Can you as an OB help if I have a posterior baby? I've seen it as a doula. I've seen the same thing. This provider who I think is amazing goes in. He did the same thing. Goes up and I could just see him. He closes his eyes and he does this whole thing with the head and he's like, “Okay, we're good.” It's like okay! That is a thing. The very, very last question is how as a patient if you're like, “I think my baby is OP” or your doula, or your nurse, or your doctor is saying, “I think this baby is OP,” how can you as a patient ask? If we say, “Can you help me rotate this baby? I'm having a hard time doing it with pushing.” Dr. Sterling: Yeah. You do have to be completely dilated. You have to be completely dilated and I find that it can be really difficult to perform, but in the right patient, it is a wonderful tool to have in your toolkit. But there are some providers who are so good at it and there are some providers who haven't done it as much. I was really impressed by this OB. She was a newer graduate. She had just graduated that year from residency and I actually have some friends in common. She had trained where I had friends do their fellowship, so I texted them after and I was like, “She was so good at that manual rotation.” They were like, “Yeah. That program really pushed manual rotation. They do a ton of it so they come out really well trained in that.” I was like, “That's so awesome,” because I feel like in our training, that wasn't something that we did a ton of but I always was like, “Yeah, I can do it” and I would try and once in a while, I would have succeeded but I didn't feel super confident in that skill. That's the thing. Where you train really depends on the skills that you pick up. But anyway, so yeah. I think that if you think that your baby is OP and your provider really does have to feel like they're OP because they don't want to turn a baby that is OA. You don't want to turn it the opposite way. But you can say, “Hey, if we think this baby is OP, can we do a manual rotation and try to get him head down?” I think it's important to ask what the risks are and communicate to your provider if that is something you want. You have to say, “Yeah, I'm okay with those risks,” and then you put your provider in a place of comfort. We get uncomfortable when patients, for me, when a patient is signaling to me that they don't understand the risk or they don't believe the risk is possible, that's when you put your provider into a nervous situation. Meagan: Right, yes. I love that when your patient is confident, it helps you. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Dr. Sterling: If they're like, “Well, I don't think that would happen,” then you're like, “I need you to understand that this very much could happen.” Meagan: Yes, it could happen. This one provider that I was talking to about how there was one time where he was going the way that you would normally go and he was like, “Nope. This baby has to go the other way.” I was like, “What?” And seriously, just rotated it and was like, “All right, now it's good.” Sometimes too, talk to your provider and say, “Can we try one more time?” or “I understand that it's not working. Can we take a little break and try again?” Or whatever, assessing. Dr. Sterling: And asking questions. I think it's really good to just ask questions. If somebody is saying no, it's okay to say, “Can you walk me through your reasoning?” Meagan: Yeah, I love that. Can you tell me why? Dr. Sterling: It's totally okay. It's totally okay to ask that and sometimes when they walk you through your reasoning, you may say, “You know what? I'm actually okay with that risk” or when they walk you through your reasoning, you might be like, “Yeah. I feel you there. I feel much more confident about this decision. It's not the outcome that I wanted, but I am resonating with your thought process and thus I feel more comfortable with this decision,” so that a month later after this birth, I'm not thinking back on that situation and wondering, “Should I have pushed just a little bit harder?” Even if you're not getting the birth outcome that you had envisioned, it's important for you to understand the why-- for many people, I should say, it's important to understand the why so that your birth story becomes part of your story. I don't want people to always be questioning, “Should I have done this? Should I have done that?” I think a lot of the time because we feel uncomfortable asking for more explanation and we're not necessarily always given the explanation then we have all of these questions that we carry with us for literally years. Women who gave birth 20 years ago will comment in my DM's and be asking questions about that and it breaks my heart that they've been carrying that weight for so many years. Meagan: Yeah. I think that is such a great spot to end on is ask questions. It's okay. It's okay to ask those questions. It's okay to have that doubt too. It's okay to have that doubt and have that question because sometimes it's like, “Oh, well it's a stupid question,” but it's not a stupid question because it's a question that you want to know. Dr. Sterling: It's a question you have and there really is no such thing as stupid questions. There really is no such thing. Meagan: Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I know that so many people are going to be just waiting so patiently for this episode to air because we had so many questions we didn't even get to. Again, thank you so much. Dr. Sterling: Oh, you're welcome. It was an honor. Meagan: Can you tell everyone where to find you on social media and maybe talk a little bit more about your program? Dr. Sterling: Yeah, yes. I'm @drsterlingobgyn on TikTok and on Instagram and then I have a membership where I support people through trying to conceive, pregnancy, postpartum, and the whole journey and that's sterlingparents.com. We have a beautiful curriculum that we put people through to help support them through the physical and emotional challenges of the whole journey. We have a really lovely database that I'm really proud of that really can replace all of the internet searches and Google. That database all has three E verifications so all of our information is evidence-based, expert-based, and experience-based so we like to talk about things and with people who have had that experience themselves. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Awesome. We'll make sure to drop all of those links in the show notes, so listeners, check out the show notes. We'll also have you on our social media today and we'll have everything tagged as well. If you're not knowing how to do it in the show notes, go to our Instagram. Thank you again, so much. Dr. Sterling: Oh you're so welcome. Thanks for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

TVL Holiday Special #3 Stephanie with My Essential Birth + Preparing Physically

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 19, 2022 43:31

For our final holiday special podcast episode, we want to help you feel as physically prepared as possible when going for your VBAC!Stephanie of My Essential Birth joins Meagan to share her wisdom from her own two VBAC births as well as what she has helped women learn through her many years as a birth worker. You will hear tips on how to choose and vet providers, three free exercises that might just make all the difference during your labor, and the secret lesson Stephanie has learned that she wants all of our listeners to know. Additional LinksStephanie's Website and CoursePregnancy and Birth Made Easy PodcastBebo Mia's WebinarHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is the end of the year. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and I have another holiday edition for you. Today is one that I am so excited about because this is someone that I know personally. She's a dear friend of mine and we have taken similar journeys through our doula careers, so it's really fun to be with someone that I already know and that we have the same mindset and goals for all of you out there. This is Stephanie and she is amazing. So amazing. She is a mom and a doula. She's had a VBAC and she actually has an amazing course through My Essential Birth. That's correct, right? My Essential Birth? Stephanie: Yep. Meagan: It's a course on how to prepare and get ready for birth. She has the same drive, I feel like, and passion as I do to get the information out to all of you and to help you know what is best for you whether it be, again, scheduling a repeat Cesarean or having a VBAC or maybe you're a first-time mom and you just want to know how to go along the way, seriously, Stephanie is going to be that person for you. So I'm so excited today to have her on. Welcome, Steph. Stephanie: Thank you. That's quite an introduction. I love it. Come to my podcast. Do the same thing. Meagan: No, no seriously. I was going to say, she has a full-on introduction here too. But you are amazing. You are so amazing and I love what you have done with My Essential Birth. You're busy. You've got three kids. You've got three kids and something too that is really fun is every single birth has been so different which I think just broadens your knowledge and passion, even more, to do what you do because for me, my births were all so different and I don't know, I really don't know if I would be here today if I didn't have all of those births. Stephanie: Yeah, 100%. Yes. Meagan: Don't you feel like these experiences in our lives have brought us here today and have brought passion to our hearts? But yeah. On top of that, you homeschool. You do so many things. You wear so many hats, so I'm so grateful for you taking the time today to talk to us about all of the amazing things that you do. But I think one of the really cool things right off the bat is, let's talk about your VBACs and how you really got started in all of this. Stephanie: Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head because 100%, if I hadn't had the experiences with the births that I have had, I wouldn't have not only the passion but the knowledge from seeing things go wrong. It makes me think of when I was 16 and I got my first car and it was a piece of crap and everything broke down on it so I had to learn about things [inaudible]. Meagan: Yes. Stephanie: No, I'm not comparing my body to a car, but I will say that those experiences totally shaped the way that I do what I do today and the passion behind it. My first baby– now, mind you, in my head, this was my goal. I wanted to go unmedicated. It was what I wanted to do. I just wanted to have that experience for myself for no particular reason. That's just what I wanted to do. We got around 34-35 weeks and I was reading a birth story online. Mind you, this was 13, 14 years ago, so it was a little bit ago not like what we see today with birth stories and stuff, but I'm at work and bawling because I'm super pregnant. I'm like, “That's what I want my birth to be like,” so I researched the classes that kind of went along with this book and I reached out to some local birth educators. It was this 12-week series and I had four or five weeks left to go. There was this one lady that was like, “Okay, I'll do these intensive courses on the weekend if you could make it.” I'm over like, “My husband works every weekend. We're super broke.” She was going to do it for this bigger prize. I'm like, “It's fine. I'll wing it. It's going to be fine.”Fast forward to that birth and missing some red flags, things like my provider telling me when first of all, he didn't want to have the conversation until 36 weeks about what the birth was going to be like, so I told him early on, “I don't want to have an epidural. I want to go unmedicated.” He was like, “We don't talk about that until 36 weeks.” That was a red flag, but I didn't know any better. Meagan: Interesting, yeah. Because that's what they do. Stephanie: Uh-huh and I was like, “Okay. Sure.” Totally. He was super old school. There were a couple of things and just the way that he talked to me that I should have caught on, but when 36 weeks came and I said, “I really want to go unmedicated,” and whatever and he was talking about, “Well, I actually let my patients get their epidurals much earlier than others. Why be in pain?” And I'm like, “No, it's really important to me.” And then he continued with, “Well, women with size 5.5 shoes and smaller tend to have Cesarean births.” Now, mind you, I'm a small person. I'm 5'0”. My shoe size is 5.5 and I'm sitting there just, “You've got to be freaking kidding me,” because my grandmother who was 4'10”, and her grandmother. I'm just going down the line like, “Nobody would be here. What are we talking about?” But at the same time, I'm a new mom. It's my first birth. I'm scared, so I stayed with him, and anyways, the cascade of intervention that happened was my water broke with just a trickle. I didn't have contractions. The provider ended up telling me once I was at the hospital that I needed to have Pitocin and I say that because I remember asking the nurse, “Did he say that word need?”She was like, “I'll come back.” But she was like, “He said need.” So I said, “Okay, well then I must need Pitocin.” So we took Pitocin. That baby did not do well with it. He couldn't crank up the Pitocin enough to make the contraction strong enough to actually make labor progress because my baby's heart rate would drop. That was, in my opinion, a medically-caused Cesarean because yes, when I have a baby in distress, then there we are. So that was my first experience with birth. I didn't connect with my baby right away. On top of being a new mom and figuring out life, I had just had abdominal surgery. I was a mess of emotions and then the next two births are where I found some redemption and healing and passion and power for women's bodies and what we can do. During my second birth, we had moved overseas to Germany and I was meeting with a doctor. I'd met with an OB but it was actually midwives who you give birth with. I had taken a really good birth course and I had been practicing a lot of stuff. I did not understand a ton about positioning though for my baby and so I had two days of prodromal labor which is not that big of a deal. Two days of prodromal labor, then finally things kicked in and I was in full active labor, but then I had pushing contractions at 4 centimeters, so now, my doula brain goes, “Oh, it's a positional thing. I have all of these ideas,” but then, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm not going to make it.” And then too, the wonderful German nurse there– there was a little bit of a language barrier for sure, but I was like, “I really want to get into the water.” She was like, “Oh, later. And also, I have something, honey, that will take all of that away. You just let me know if you want a little bit. We'll just stick it in the bum. A little bit of pain meds.” At the time, I was like, “Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's try that.” But I had the pain meds. That ended up being like, I was comfortable before two contractions before my water broke. It took the edge off enough that my body was like, “Let's get things started,” but then the contractions were right back on. I did end up with an epidural for that birth. My baby did fine with the Pitocin. I pushed that baby out vaginally. I wasn't forced into another Cesarean or anything and that birth was amazing. I was very, very pleased with the way that that birth went. And then we were moving from Germany back to the United States, particularly to North Dakota. If you know anything about North Dakota, they don't even have– my midwife was not a licensed midwife on purpose. You cannot be a licensed midwife and deliver babies outside of a hospital setting. They can get arrested. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It's illegal. Stephanie: It's not the black market, but she's not licensed. She was a direct-entry midwife. So we were moving back from overseas to North Dakota and I called the hospital first before I met with a home birth midwife. They told me, “Well, we don't really care that you've had a vaginal birth after Cesarean. You had a Cesarean before, so you need to plan for another scheduled Cesarean birth,” so talk about my red flags now. Meagan: You're like, “Nope. Nope.” Stephanie: No way. I'm going to do whatever I have to do. So I did. I reached out to a home birth midwife. I found a doula and all of those things that I probably should have done with baby #1. We planned for me to have an unmedicated experience at home. I was really excited about that up until 35, 36 weeks. I had a breech baby for one and that breech baby, we were able to get him turned, so that part went away, but then it was the mental game of, “Can I actually do this? You've never not had an epidural.” All of that self-talk starts happening and it's not good. My doula was like, “Here's a list of affirmations. Take what you like. Leave the rest and start saying them out loud several times a day every day.” And so I did that and within a week or so, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I went from being scared and nervous to confident and excited. I was like, “I can do this.” So that baby had a week of prodromal labor. It was about 5 or 6 days of prodromal labor and then things get moving and I have some active labor that hit, but my contractions never really got closer than about 6 minutes apart. They would last a minute to two minutes long, but they were never those super crazy close, consistent. Things kept going off in my head like, “If I was in the hospital, I definitely would have been offered a Cesarean birth.” It wouldn't have been a question, especially in that hospital. These contractions were coming. My midwife, we finally call her and I'm like, “Look. I've been in prodromal labor and now it's active labor, but they're not closer than 6 minutes.” She checks me and I'm 6 centimeters. I was like, “My labor is progressing on my own.” It was so cool. And then it was another 12 hours from that point and I had my baby. But it was incredible. Those contractions and just knowing that my body was doing what it was meant to do. There was a point where I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm so tired. I need to sleep.” For sure, we went upstairs. I slept for 45 minutes. I had two contractions. It was another moment where I was like, “Yeah.” If I was at the hospital, somebody would say, “Oh, she's stalling. We've got to do something.” Whatever. But those two contractions and the second one, I woke up and I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is happening? I can't do this anymore.” Sure enough, I'm thinking, this better be transition. My midwife comes in. She had heard me. She was sleeping downstairs. She comes to the door. She's like, “Do you want me to check you?” I'm like, “Yes, please. Let's see where I'm at.” She's like, “You're 9.5 with a bouncy lip of cervix. You're good to go. Let's get you to go to the bathroom. You can get in the birth tub now.” So we did that and i can laugh about it now, but I went downstairs. I went to the bathroom and after I was done peeing, I had my first pushing contraction. I remember telling my husband, “I don't want to give birth on the toilet. I have to get out of here.” 4.5 hours later because of the mental blocks that I had– we can laugh about that now, but at the time, it was very serious. Like, “I'd better get to the birth tub.” Meagan: Yeah. I'd better get out of here. Stephanie: Yeah, but it was wonderful. I will tell you the differences. The major differences for me in the spaces that I was in for being able to give birth unmedicated and as a VBAC, my birth team made the biggest difference. When I was at home and feeling like, “Oh my gosh. I can't do this anymore. Oh my goodness. I've been pushing so long. I'm so tired,” everyone was like, “But you are doing it. You're doing great. Keep it up.” I'm like, “Oh. I can take that in and chill and feel supported.” So I did. We kind of joke about, first of all, I was making noises that my husband the next day told me, “You sound like the screaming goats.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I do.”Meagan: I was called a cow. My husband was like, “You're a mooing cow in there.” I'm like, “Thank you so much.”Stephanie: Well, the best part of this story, I actually love this story, the next day, my husband is sitting at the table and showing our little boys the screaming goat video. His mom's walking down the stairs and goes, “You recorded her?!” Meagan: Uh-uh!Stephanie: So I'm like, “Okay, yeah. I get it. I get it. I really did sound like that.” Meagan: You really did sound like that. That is so funny. Stephanie: But anyways, I'm pushing all this time and I do remember hitting a point even during pushing, I'm like, “Oh my gosh. I can't do this.” I was scared. I had never pushed a baby out before. Instead of holding my breath and bearing down, I was purposely breathing through my nose and not leaning into that pushing. My husband was finally like or I told him, “You need to make the bed. I need to get out of the tub,” because in my head, all I'm thinking about was, “If I can't do this, then I'm going to have to go to the hospital. We're going to have to call an ambulance. The lights are going to be on. There's going to be people I don't know.” I had to walk myself through all of those things. Meagan: You were really deep in that space. Yeah. Stephanie: Yeah. I was like, “No. This has to happen here because I can't deal with all of that.” So I told my husband, “Go upstairs. Make the bed.” I was like, “Make sure you get the lining down so we don't mess up the mattress and all of that.” When he went upstairs, it was the first time that I paused and tuned into myself. I just said a quick prayer and for me, I call God Heavenly Father. “Heavenly Father, please. I can't do this alone. I'm scared.” My husband comes down the stairs. I'm just finishing that prayer. He's ready to lift me out of the water. He was like, “Come on. Let's go. Let's go now.” He went to lift me and I'm like, “No. It's happening.” Two pushes later, that baby was out. Meagan: Oh, that just gave me major chills. Stephanie: It was the most spiritual experience of my life. I love everything about it. Yes, it was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done physically. Mentally, how it pushes you to your limits, and then you feel like you are the strongest woman alive. You can do anything. You're a good mother. You're all of the things. It was that feeling and looking at what I had done through having good support that I was like, “No. We're lying to women. You know what? If I could do this, anyone can. So now I'm going to become a birth educator and now I”m going to work with women one-on-one. I know that you can do this.” So that's where the passion came from. Those were my birth stories. Meagan: I love it. I love it. Oh, that just gave me such chills. You know what's interesting is I don't think I've ever even heard all of your birth stories like that. Stephanie: Oh really? Meagan: I don't think I have. We have some similarities. We have some similarities. Stephanie: I know. I've read through some of yours too. I love it. Yeah. Meagan: Even more. I don't think I realized. Yeah, maybe I have and it was a long time ago and I forgot, but there are a lot of similarities. I love it. You've had these VBACs. You found this passion and here you are today. So in past episodes, we've talked about mentally preparing and mentally getting into that space. You just did that. You just talked about that which is so important. It is so crucial to be in that space because when we're out here, we can't dive into birth. I feel like I did the same thing. I wish that it was recorded so I could really show people how big of a tantrum I was throwing, but I was legitimately throwing a tantrum in my driveway pacing back and forth saying, “If my water wouldn't have just broken, this would be totally different. This is happening all over again.” I was really spiraling and everyone just sat there. My neighbor was seeing me. She was like, “Oh!” I'm like, “I'm in labor.” She stopped and was like, “Is she okay?” Rick was like, “She's just gonked or something right now.” I had her watching me. My mom was watching me. The kids were like, “Mom!” I'm throwing my hands and voicing everything that was in my head out loud getting it out there but I needed to do that. I needed to do that but as soon as I could get that out, I remember the drive. We were getting in the car to go to the birth center and meet my midwife. I had my baby later that night, but it was the morning before I had my baby and he was just like, “So, how did that feel?” I was like, “So good.” I just remember labor coming on so much stronger. You have to get in that head space. We know there is the headspace, but what about the physical? I feel like there is so much goodness that you talk about. The physical aspect of preparing for birth and not even just preparing to actually give birth, but preparing and creating that team and creating that environment. One of the first things is knowing your stuff. How can our listeners know their stuff? Right now, they are listening to this, so this is what you can do to know your stuff. But yeah. When you say ‘know your stuff', what would that all entail? What would you suggest?Stephanie: Yeah, this is kind of the tricky thing that I'm always weighing one thing against the other where it's knowing what you want for your birth and how to get there and then making sure that you're vetting your provider. They really do go hand in hand but it's really tricky because just depending on what order you take, you may have to change up one or the other. But when it comes to understanding what you need in order to have the birth that you desire, one of the things that I tell moms to do is, “Take a meditative moment. Close your eyes and take some deep breaths. Picture yourself from that very first contraction through to when you give birth. What does that look like? Where are you? Who is around you? What are the lights like? What do you smell? What do you see?”That will help you decide. It gives you some idea of how to get there or what you're going to need in order to get there. I'll do this exercise with moms and moms that were planning to give birth at a hospital but never make it there in their minds. They're at home. They don't ever get in the car to go to the hospital. They've had their baby at home. So I think really understanding what you are looking for. And even for a mom that has that experience, she's planning to give birth at a hospital, but she has this really calm, relaxing thing at home, it doesn't necessarily mean that she needs to be giving birth at home although it could, maybe it's more of, “So I need to have control over my body, control over the situation. I need to be in my own clothes,” and those sorts of things. Meagan: Oh, I love that you just said that. Stephanie: And really understanding what is creating that image in your mind. But of course, I'm going to talk about taking a good birth course because not only is that what I did that was so life-changing for me but that is what I help moms do today just like you have a birth course where you talk about preparing for VBAC. A good birth course is going to include all of those things like how to stay healthy and low-risk with nutrition, and good exercise that you can do not just moving your body and keeping your heart rate, but what are things positionally that you can do for yourself and your baby? How are you going to stretch the perineal area or use the specific muscles that are going to be used for birthing and labor time? That's going to be all the way through understanding each phase of labor, how to work with your birth partner, how they can support you, how relaxation can be so important and meditation, all the way through to birth and postpartum. That includes every situation that can happen on the way. When you walk into your birth space, are you going to have an IV or wear your own clothes? Do you want to have intermittent fetal monitoring or do you want to be on the monitor the whole time? If you're talking induction, what are your options? So I think really understanding what your options are, and some of that changes as your birth changes or as other options are provided whether or not you have gestational diabetes or if you're GBS positive. Those are different decisions you have to play with and make, but if you like listening to podcasts, taking a good birth course, watching birth videos, if you're gathering all of that information and coming together for yourself deciding what you want for yourself, then you can move into asking the right questions to help that provider because that really is the next step. You can have this wonderful birth that you have thought of and dreamed of in your mind and if your provider is not on the same page, if they are not supportive, you might not get it at all and it's not even your fault. Meagan: I know. That is so hard because sometimes we don't know what it looks like to have that supportive provider. We don't know what it looks like because for me, with my first birth, I went to my OB and he was really nice and welcoming, and charming. I was like, “Cool. He's rad. He's great,” and then there were the red flags but I didn't see those red flags. It's so hard to know how to find that provider and you say to vet your provider. What do you mean by vetting your provider and what tips would you give to start that process and know right away what you really want to look for? Stephanie: Yeah. I'm glad you asked that. I think probably one of the best things you can do is meet with more than one and different practices. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Different practices are such a big thing because even the one provider in the same practice, they're going to have similarities so it is so important to branch out. When I was going that with my VBAC baby, I did. I went to multiple people and I could physically feel the difference without even speaking to anybody. Stephanie: Yes. 100%. I always said that I didn't believe I was intuitive at all just as a person, I don't feel like I am in touch with myself. If that's you, you're wrong. Just like you explained right there, we do. You know when you have conversations with other people or you walk into a room. There's a feeling there and how you're treated matters. The problem is, I think and I mean, I'm guilty of it too. I think we put providers on this pedestal and they're kind of untouchable. They're above us in some way because they're gone to school and they've got knowledge about things that we don't. In some ways, maybe that's true. That's why we hire them because they have skills that we need that we can't meet while we are in our vulnerable state. The other side of that is that they are also a person and how they treat us matters. And so when you are asking questions and meeting with providers, how are you feeling? Were you respected? Were you rushed when you bring up something? Providers will actually eye roll or laugh at some of the things that you say. That's a red flag. Meagan: It's so true. Yes. Stephanie: I say too, you know what? Go meet with a birth center out-of-hospital provider. You don't have to plan on giving birth there at all. Pay attention to how you are treated. How does that feel for you? For people that are maybe interested in that and they are like, “Oh, that's so scary and my husband doesn't want to or my birth partner really doesn't want me out of the hospital,” great. Go take him and have a free interview with an out-of-hospital care provider and just see how you feel. If you hate it or it's not for you, then that's great but I think that you need to have the contrast. I think you deserve to have the contrast. It's the same with doulas. I'm like, “You don't know if you want a doula? Great. Go meet with one anyways. It's a free consult and then you can decide.” But vetting a provider, like I said, you have to have some questions going in. VBAC-specific moms, they're going to want to know things like, “Okay. For a mom like me, I'm healthy and low-risk. It's my second baby and I've only had one Cesarean birth. What does it look like for someone like me in your practice having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean? What are your percentage rates? Do you use the VBAC calculator or how do you decide? Do you induce? What are your reasons for induction and can I say no?” You always can but it's always fun to ask a provider, “Can I say no?” The answer should always be yes but it might not be. “We'll talk about it when we get there.” So you have to have some specific questions that you're bringing in to decide if this is somebody that you can handle and you are probably maybe not going to match up on every single thing. That's okay too, but are those big things being met? I think that's what helps you decide, “Is this going to be a good match for me or not?” Meagan: Yeah. I love that. And just tuning into your overall feeling. Like you said, providers can eye roll and they can be subtle. They can be subtle, really subtle, right? Even midwives can do that too. Stephanie: Oh totally, yes. Meagan: OBs, midwives, it's so important to really tune into that. I think it's so important to do that even before becoming pregnant too. Sometimes to find an OB—if you are thinking that you want to become pregnant soon and you have an OB or a midwife, start there. That's totally fine, but it's okay to branch out and say, “I'm not expecting yet. I'm preparing. I want to find that provider right from the beginning.” Sometimes that doesn't happen, but I think it's good to do if you can. I mean, I wasn't pregnant and I went to 12 providers. Stephanie: I love it. Meagan: 12 providers which were maybe excessive. Maybe, but that's what I needed. I needed to go and I needed to hear all of their things and feel all of that in those environments. I chose the provider that I thought was totally amazing. He still is. I'm not saying he's not, but for me, I thought he was perfect. He was exactly what I needed out of everybody and then I still changed at 24 weeks, right? And so a lot of people are like, “Why would you change? He's so supportive.” I'm like, “He is so supportive and I still feel all the good, but something is not resonating.” That's okay too. Even if you do find your provider. Say at your appointment, you find your provider and you're not feeling it or you're getting things like Stephanie where it's like, “Hey, this is what I want to do.” “We don't talk about that yet.” Those types of things, if they are not willing to hear you and they don't want to know how they can help you in this birth experience, are red flags. Don't feel like you have to stay like both Stephanie and I did because I felt like I had to stay too. I felt like I was cheating on my provider if I left him. He had gone this far with me. He had supported me this far, but at the same time, I truly believe I probably wouldn't have had that second Cesarean. I really don't believe that if I would have changed, but it's okay because it's my birth story and that's why I'm here, but it's okay. It's okay if you're feeling off and you want to change. It's okay to do that. Stephanie: Yeah. I think you can't shout that from the rooftops enough because it's true. You do feel like, “Oh, I'm going to hurt their feelings or something.” No, you're not and if you do, who cares? You're never going to see them again. Let it go. Meagan: Exactly. Stephanie: It's so important for you and your future. It's such an important moment for you. It doesn't matter. It should trump that. Meagan: It should trump that. Someone else's feelings. That's the hardest thing. We have so many people out there. If you are a people pleaser, you're not alone and it's easy to please your provider. You want to please your provider, but remember, they are working for you. They are there for you. If they're not pleasing you, it's okay to leave. It is okay to leave and so yeah. It's a hard thing to do, but I do encourage people to tune in, follow their hearts, tune into that and do what's best for them because if they don't truly vet their provider, it can make or break an experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it can. A good provider is going to help make it just like you said. My midwife and my doula who were in that third birth, oh my gosh. They are a part of my life forever whether they like it or not. You are bonded with those people forever and you need that kind of support in your life. Meagan: Right, yes. Yes. Okay, so we're talking about knowing your stuff and vetting your provider. Now, let's talk about putting in the work. We've got these things. Now, going for it. What things would you suggest? Stephanie: Yeah as far as putting in the work, I really recommend– and I have it on my website as well and you can tell me if you like these ideas or not, but I recommend these three exercises that you can do every day. First is the forward-leaning inversion. You're literally—you get up on a low-lying chair or couch probably with support. Put a pillow down in front of you. Get your elbows on the ground with your bum in the air and you hold that for three breaths. You do that once a day. If you're somebody who has heartburn or something, obviously, you're maybe going to want to not do that depending on how the heartburn is or there are a couple of people who shouldn't do that. Basically, that is really good because it releases certain ligaments. It allows more room for baby. It allows for really good positioning. That's something that you can do to make sure baby is in a good position. Meagan: Every day. Stephanie: Every day. An easier, more comfortable labor. The other thing you're going to do is pelvic tilts. You can choose to do how many you want, but I like to do them at least when I get up in the morning and before I go to bed. That's 20-40 tilts. That's in the hands-and-knees position. You're tilting your pelvis forward and into a flat back, forward and into a flat back. Again, that's strengthening certain areas. It's helping baby's position. Those are really, really good for you to be doing. The third one is the squat. This is a deep-seated squat. It's not like we are going to grab weights and do a weighted squat or anything like that. This is like how you see people in third-world countries who don't have chairs or new babies, toddlers when they go down to squat and play with something, look at that squat because that's the one that you are going for. The reason for that is because it stretches the perineal area. It strengthens the muscles in your legs. Chances are when it was pushing time, you're going to be in some kind of squat. Now maybe not, but chances are the majority of us are going to end up there. The other thing about squatting is that it shortens the birth canal, it makes it easier to be able to push baby out and that's why we end up in that position but if you're practicing that squat specifically, and this is where my husband was so good. “I'll tell you what, for every minute you squat for the day, I will give you a minute of massage at the end of the night.” I was like-- Meagan: Oh my gosh. Done. Done, done, done. Stephanie: An hour a night, I am not joking. So he was so good supporting me that way, but I'll tell you what, when I started squatting and it was probably later in my pregnancy like 34-35 weeks. When I started squatting, it was 1-2, maybe 3 minutes before my legs were numb, my feet hurt and I had to stand up. Everything was tingling, but a couple of weeks in, I could hold it for 15 minutes comfortably. So when I was telling you before that I was pushing for 4.5 hours, I was in a birth tub in a squatted position for that amount of time— Meagan: Wow. Stephanie: --and I remember thinking, “I'm so glad I practiced these squats because I wouldn't have had the stamina.” As far as physical prep, those are things that you can do every single day. Meagan: I love that. Stephanie: Thank you. I know and I'm like, you and I have taken some similar training and stuff. It's valid. It's real. Meagan: It really is. Stephanie: The other things that you can do are, let's stay healthy and low-risk. That means you're eating a high-protein diet. You're drinking a lot of water. You're taking your prenatals, well-balanced. That matters because it can keep things like preeclampsia at bay. It's also going to make you feel better and give you more energy, so there are a lot of benefits to that. But my favorite part of staying healthy and low-risk is that you remain in charge of your birth decisions. That's why it matters to me so much. It's not even just for the health of myself and my baby. It also comes down to, “I want to have a say as to how all of this goes.” So those are some of the physical things. Then we move into the, once I understand how birth works, what are the signs that I'm in labor? What are the signs I'm in active labor? How do I work with my body? Learning things like relaxation and I do that through relaxation practice. Even just a simple one, and you can do this with your birth partner or by yourself, but you set up this stage. So use your senses. You should be leaning back in a chair or in your bed lights dimmed with essential oil or a consistent smell that your body gets used to smell. You just practice breathing deep into your belly. Imagine how you breathe when you wake up in the morning. First thing, pay attention to how you breathe when your eyes first open. It's really deep belly breaths so try to aim for that. Do that for 10 minutes. Just go from your head to your toe and be like, “Okay. I'm going to feel the hairs on my head relax, and then my eyebrows, and then my jaw.” All the way down. The thing is, it's not easy to do when you're not used to relaxing but when you utilize all of those senses, then it becomes something called muscle memory. So if I know my body knows because I've been doing this for the last several months that every time the lights are dimmed and I smell lavender essential oil and I'm breathing into my belly, then when you do those things during labor, it's like, “Oh, lights are dimmed and lavender,” then you don't really have to think about it. Meagan: It's intuitive. Stephanie: Yes. “I'm supposed to relax now.” And then obviously you need to practice relaxation. Once you get good at that, you can practice it with the lights on, with the TV on, with your husband or kids walking through the room because that's the reality of birth and especially if you're in a hospital. Meagan: Yes, yes. Stephanie: But learning relaxation is really important. And then you move into—there's a lot more to do with that like meditation and the mental stuff and all of that. Labor rehearsal where you practice with ice and other things. There is plenty that you can do, but I would say relaxation, your three exercises, and staying healthy and low-risk are probably just top of the list things that you can do on a daily basis. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. So good, so good. I love that you talked about preparing and then it becomes muscle memory. It's so true. It's so, so true. I encourage if you're ever in a moment where you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed to dive into that because there are going to be moments in labor and birth when you might feel stressed and overwhelmed. If you can practice doing that in those moments, oh my gosh. It's going to be so beneficial. So I know we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for time? Stephanie: That would be that you can say ‘no' to anything. I feel like I teach this all day long and I talk about it a lot. I don't know how often moms let that register because they will know that and then you'll get with their provider and they're doing non-stress tests or whatever and it's like, all of a sudden, oh crap. I need this and this and this. No. You can actually say ‘no' to literally anything. Meagan: Anything, yeah. Stephanie: Anything, yeah. They can't do anything. The best that they can do is make you sign, what is it? Meagan: An AMA. Stephanie: A medical release, yeah. AMA, against medical advice. Meagan: Against medical advice. Stephanie: Sign it. Sign it. It's your body. You get to choose. And then kind of like I talked about, when I talk about health and nutrition, I think a lot of times, moms don't register. “Okay, yeah. I get it. I'm supposed to be healthy.” But it's so you can be low-risk and in charge of your birth. I think that's a really important part of that. Meagan: Yes. I think so too. It's so hard. It's so hard to be in that moment and be like, “Uh, okay.” When you're like, “I really wanted to say no. I had a prenatal last night with a client and they were like, “One of the biggest things that we don't want to do is go in and just say yes to everything. That's one of their biggest goals is not to just say yes to everything. They're not saying, “We want to refuse everything,” they're just saying, “We want to be educated and we want to know what we're saying yes to.” It's so important to know. If you are saying yes, know why you are saying yes. And if not, it's okay to say no or “One moment. Let me think about it.” It's okay because there are times where things are going to be thrown at you and it is hard to say, “No” or actually, “I want more time” or “I'm not sure about that right now” but you can. You can. You have the right to say no. You have the right. So it's so important to know. I love that. Any last final tips for someone preparing for VBAC that you would like to give to our listeners? Stephanie: I think we've kind of touched on this before. It just really matters who you pick for your provider. I know we kind of talked about some things that warrant a red flag or time to interview somebody else or something, but really, if you've got that education and you've got that provider piece, you're setting yourself up for success. It should be somebody that supports you, not tolerates the opportunity to try for a VBAC, but somebody who believes in the natural process of birth and that having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean is more healthy and safer for mom and baby than having another abdominal surgery. I think that matters that you've got somebody that believes that way. Meagan: Totally. I love that. Oh, well thank you so much for being here with us today. I want you listeners to know that she has the three free, that's what you say, right? Stephanie: Yes, three free exercises. Meagan: Three free exercises. I'm having a hard time lately with tongue twisters. Three free exercises, so we are going to be providing that in our email. If you're not subscribed to our email, please check it out because we are going to be providing so many new things and some really exciting upcoming things with The VBAC Link are going to be happening. We are going to be providing that and then will you tell everybody where they can find you? Because everyone needs to know where you're at and follow you. Stephanie: Thank you, yes. So I too have a podcast. It is called Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy. Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy is the podcast so anywhere you listen to podcasts, you can take that in. I'm also on Instagram @myessentialbirth, Facebook, TikTok, all the things, and then if you are looking for information on the birth course or anything else in regards to where some of the podcast show notes and some of that live, it's myessentialbirth.com. Meagan: Yes and all of these will be listed in our show notes today so if you want to go follow her which I promise you that you do, go click that and give her a follow because her content is amazing. Her podcast is amazing and it's been such an honor to have you here today. Stephanie: Thank you, Meagan. I love what you do too and I love that we get to do this together. Meagan: Me too. Yeah, so before we let everyone go, I didn't really give a full, “Hey, we know each other,” but we actually were in the same doula course. We became doulas together which seems like forever ago, but it was so fun to be there and to learn. You had already had your VBACs, hadn't you? Stephanie: I did. Meagan: Yes and I hadn't yet. I had only had my two Cesareans and so I just remember you being so inspirational to me and motivating me. I was like, “Okay. She could do it. She's here. She is doing this too. We have the same interests,” and I just connected to you so much. Stephanie: Same, yeah. Well then, and now look at you with The VBAC Link. You just took off. I love it. Meagan: I love being here and I love being here with all of our listeners, so again, listeners, thank you so much for being here with us today, and thanks again, Steph. Stephanie: Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Episode 214 Megan's VBAC + Positive Home Birth Transfer

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 14, 2022 60:45

Megan joins us today all the way from England! Megan planned for a home birth after a Cesarean with a wonderful team of midwives. She was well-prepared for any potential outcomes and made sure to secure continuity of care in the case of a hospital transfer. 27 hours after her waters broke with intense contractions and no sleep, Megan was devastated to learn that she wasn't even dilated at all. She was thankful for the supportive midwife team she had in place at the hospital. As her birth experience presented the unexpected, Megan embraced flexibility. Interventions she didn't initially plan for brought pain relief, rest, progression, and her VBAC! Our guest cohost and certified VBAC Link doula, Madison, shares her love and wisdom throughout this episode as well. Additional LinksMadison's Doula WebsiteBebo Mia's WebinarHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Hello, hello. I cannot believe 2022 is almost over. We only have one episode left of the year, but this episode is going to be amazing. We are so happy that you are still with us for 2022 and we can't wait until 2023 because we're going to have really fun things coming. I want to share with you, you've probably heard it a little bit in the past, that I've been having some co-hosts on the show and it's so fun to have different voices and people from all over the world sharing reviews and being involved in these stories. These are all of our certified birth doulas who are really fun birth workers. Today, our special guest is Madison and it is so fun to have you, Madison. Thank you so much for being with us. Madison: I'm so excited to be here, Meagan. I am a Cesarean mom myself and I haven't had my VBAC yet, but taking your class and being able to support VBAC moms better through your class was just amazing, so thank you. Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes. Thank you, thank you. Well, I would love to turn the time over to you to read a review. Madison: Yes, so this review, the title is “Confidence Boost” and it is from a user named musicfeedsthesoul. I love that. The review says, “Meagan and Julie, thank you, thank you, thank you for what you have built here. Story after story, my confidence in myself and my plans for a successful VBAC were lifted. I learned so much from you” and then she put in parentheses “(cervix nerd over here) and your experience with them watching Women of Strength birth the way they desire. I hired a doula for my VBAC baby boy's birth born on 8/20/22” so not that long ago.Meagan: Oh my goodness, not long at all. Congratulations. Madison: Yes, congratulations. That's so exciting. She says, “And I felt so in control. So confident in my body and my ability to advocate for myself in the hospital room all thanks to you. Got my VBAC!!!” Love it. “Feeling him come out of my and having him onto my chest was the greatest single moment of relief and joy I've ever felt. Thank you for being there along this journey. Big hugs to both of you. Meagan: Oh, that seriously just gave me chills. It gives me chills to hear that. Madison: Same. Meagan: That makes me so happy for her and thank you so much for leaving a review. We really do love these reviews. We like to share them on the podcast. We love hearing them. Some of them even make us cry. They give us chills and they keep us going. They keep me going. I love them. When I see a review come in, I'm like, “Okay. Yes. There is a reason why I'm here” and the reason why I'm here is that I'm doing this and it is helping. I make a difference and I love it. I know that kind of sounds silly because I'm like, “I make a difference,” but that's what I want to do. I want to try and make a difference in people's lives and let them figure out how they want to have birth and educate them and empower them no matter if that's a Cesarean or a VBAC. So I love it. Please leave your reviews. Google, email, Facebook, you can Instagram us. Apple Podcasts. I think even Google Play or whatever the one is for Android. I think you can leave a review there as well. They really are so appreciated. Megan's StoryMeagan: Okay. We are going to get into Megan's story. I just want to share a little bit about her. Her VBAC baby actually is- how old is she, Megan?- did you say 12 weeks old? Megan: Yeah. She'll be 12 weeks this Sunday. Meagan: Yeah, 12 weeks! Just little. Just little. She's here recording with us which is so awesome. She is living in England and some of the highlights of her birth are a long labor, following intuition, and then you know that term that we are all labeled “failure to progress”, she also had that label which I don't love. I've also had that label personally. And then she actually is a mental therapist by trade. So Megan, I feel like I'd love to know more about that at the end too. But let's turn the time over to you to get this amazing story out here with the world. Megan: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thank you for that introduction. I'm really happy to be able to share my story because I've listened to so many birth stories during my pregnancy and it was really, really helpful for me to feel confident and prepared as much as I could be to have a VBAC. So I have two baby girls. Like Meagan said, one that just turned 12 weeks and that's is my VBAC, or is about to turn 12 weeks, and is my VBAC and then my first baby girl is now a toddler. She's two and a quarter, so the babies are just over two years. Two years and one month apart. That baby was born by Cesarean because she was breech. She was born in June 2020 a couple of months right after the start of the pandemic. She was breech throughout the entire pregnancy. Actually, my husband was born breech so I just kind of had a hunch throughout the pregnancy towards the end especially when it started to be more of a concern to the OB that I was seeing that she was going to stay breech. I did, like so many women, try everything to get her to flip but she didn't. Meagan: Did your provider offer to– I'm always curious. Did your provider offer any help on their end?Megan: Yeah, they offered the ECV, so the external cephalic version I think is what it stands for, but they said that the success rate, I think, is only 1 in 3 for first-time moms. So, fortunately, it wasn't, I had heard a lot of stories about that being really horrendous. It wasn't a bad experience for me and it just didn't work. I think my provider was pretty gentle about it which was why it didn't actually hurt that bad for me. But he gave a couple of pushes to try to turn her around and just could really tell that because of her position, I think, her little bum was right underneath my hip. He was like, “Nope. She's not budging at all.” I tried everything on my own and we did try the ECV too. And I actually was okay with having the scheduled Cesarean. I might have tried to find another provider, but from my research– I was living in Colorado at the time. Madison: That's where I'm from. That's where I'm living right now. Megan: Oh cool, cool. Yeah. We are a military family so we were in Colorado Springs. Madison: Gotcha. Megan: But from my research, there wasn't a provider in Colorado. Dr. Stu in California which is my home state, I would have, but it was the start of the pandemic and I was like, “I'm not going to travel states. I don't even know about getting on a plane right now.” It just wasn't going to happen and I was okay. I was okay. I am a planner. I liked the idea of having it planned. We could get kennels arranged for our dogs and I just kind of found the silver lining in it and was okay with it. But the morning of my firstborn's birth, I asked my OB, “How long do I have to wait to get pregnant” because we knew we wanted at least another baby “in order to get a VBAC?” So I had on my mind before even the Cesarean that I would want to have a VBAC. His answer, interestingly, was only six months so I was surprised to hear that. My babies are much further apart than that, but I know that a big question that a lot of women do ask is, “How long do I have to wait in order to have a VBAC?” And he said, “Just six months.”Meagan: There are different studies out there, so that's the crazy thing is some of them say, “After six months, there's no difference” and some people say, “If it's before 18 months, it's a really high risk.” It's interesting how provider to provider, you'll find that different number. Megan: Yeah, yeah. I thought that it was interesting. He seemed like he was a pretty conservative– he wouldn't have even entertained the idea of a vaginal breech birth. He seemed pretty traditional. He was kind of an older provider. So yeah. Six months and he seemed like he was conservative too. But the Cesarean was a good experience for me. It really wasn't bad. There was nothing about it. Even the recovery went well. It is kind of a strange thing to one minute– it's so fast. And now, here's your baby. They just kind of produce this baby from you. So that part was a little bit strange and I didn't feel super connected with the birthing experience. I thought that maybe had something to do with it, but it wasn't bad. There was nothing about it that was bad. Like I said, even the healing was fine. It took me maybe about three weeks to kind of start to feel more myself and like I could move without pain. I did have hypertension during that pregnancy, gestational hypertension and it came back postpartum so that was a little complication, but that wasn't related, I don't think, to the Cesarean at all. So yeah. Moving on to the VBAC, the birth that I'm most interested in talking about today. I got pregnant when my firstborn was about 15 months and the pregnancy was super, super smooth sailing. I didn't even have hypertension and knew that I wanted a VBAC like I said, before I even got pregnant. That was always the plan. The way the care works here is that you are seen by midwives in England. So we moved as a family to England in August of 2020 when my toddler was only 9 weeks old because like I said, we are a military family. We got assigned here. The care does look quite different here in the UK, but it's midwifery-led. You're seen by a doctor if you have any risk factors and having a previous Cesarean is considered one of the ones where I would need to be seen by a consultant is what they call them. I don't think they are considered obstetricians but by a doctor. I was talking about my birth plan at 12 weeks during that first ultrasound that they offered and they said that they would be supportive of a VBAC, so that felt really good then around the middle of the pregnancy, my husband and I started to talk a little bit more about the birth plan. I started to have some anxiety about who was going to watch our toddler while we had the baby since we are here and don't have any family here in England. My husband suggested and kind of started to almost push the idea of a home birth which really surprised me from him. I didn't even think it would be something that he'd be comfortable with, so for it to be his idea came as a surprise. Meagan: I love that. Megan: Yeah, yeah. My husband surprises me all the time in really cool ways. So yeah. I started to look more into that as an option and to talk to the midwife that I was working with. She explained to me that it was considered against medical advice since I had the Cesarean, but I think in the UK they are actually required, I might be wrong by that, to offer a home birth so I could continue to explore it even though it wasn't necessarily encouraged. Around, I would say, 28 weeks, maybe 30 weeks, I told them that I was interested in planning that. I met with a consultant who was that same doctor who I think was basically trying to talk me out of the idea at 34 weeks. My husband came to that appointment and we both felt like, “No, let's continue to move forward with the plan.” So one of the things that I think is really beautiful about the way that they do birth here in the UK is that while there's no continuity of care necessarily in terms of seeing the same doctor and the same midwife every time I had an appointment, there is continuity of care in terms of if I had planned home birth and at any point, even if I decided– so if I woke up the morning that I went into labor and said, “No, I want to go to the hospital,” I could easily just go to the hospital. So I liked the idea of planning a home birth because it gave me the option of having a home birth and I could change my mind at any point versus if I hadn't planned a home birth, I couldn't wake up and decide, “I just want to have this baby at home today,” and have the support of the midwives if that makes sense. I wasn't necessarily dead-set. Like I said, it was more my husband's idea of having a home birth, but some of the things that did appeal to me about it was one, I knew that I would have some more flexibility of staying home longer with my toddler and if I felt like her being around me when I was in labor wasn't scary for her or a distraction for me, then she could even stay. I heard a lot of beautiful stories of women having their babies in the middle of the night and then their toddler wakes up to a baby and never has to even go anywhere. So that appeals to me. And then also, I really wanted a VBAC. I was really set on the idea of a VBAC even though a Cesarean wasn't a bad experience for me. It was just an experience that I wanted. From the research I had done, you were much more likely to be able to have a successful VBAC if you stayed at home. If you originally planned a home birth, even if you didn't end up giving birth at home. I knew that it would help me to avoid that cascade of interventions earlier on so that was another reason why I wanted to plan the home birth. So yeah. I moved forward with the home birth even though it was against medical advice even though it felt– there were a lot of decisions that I made throughout this pregnancy that felt pretty gutsy for me because I'm pretty compliant, a rule follower, I don't like to ruffle feathers. I kind of go with the flow so it felt courageous for me to be taking a stand against these different recommendations. Meagan: It feels off, right? Megan: It can especially toward the very end when providers– so I'll just share two. It was against medical advice for the home birth because of the Cesarean and then also towards the end of the pregnancy, I started to have some growth scans actually because I was measuring big. My fundal height was measuring big so they sent me for a growth scan and then the baby was actually small. So the baby was measuring small for gestational age and I wasn't actually concerned about the risk of uterine rupture for me. I just wasn't. That just wasn't a concern for me. I had this feeling, you never know for sure, but I just didn't feel like that would happen. But once they started to tell me that my baby was small and I had a provider tell me that sometimes small babies are more fragile and have a hard time tolerating that was when I really started to question my decision because I can feel, I just turned 35. I had 34 years on this planet to build confidence in my body's capabilities, but my baby is just brand new. Anyways, even at that, I had this feeling that my baby was fine and continued to move forward with the planned home birth because she was continuing to grow but also, it's just this balance where you don't want to be reckless and you don't want to be overly confident. I at least wanted to be cautious and wise. I didn't want to just be stubborn and like I said, reckless, but I also knew deep down that everything was fine and didn't want to be scared into making a decision that didn't fit for me. So yeah. It kind of went against my character a little bit and I'm glad that I planned things the way that I did. But yeah, it definitely did take digging deep in terms of that courage piece. Okay. So kind of starting with, I think I covered everything about the pregnancy that I wanted to share. It was really the baby being small for gestational age and then the Cesarean that were the two complicating things in the pregnancy. Madison: Quick question really quick. Megan: Sure, yeah, please. Madison: What was the percentage of growth restriction? Did they say?Megan: Yes, yes. So I had the first scan at 34 weeks and because of the position of the baby– so the sonographer did the measurements and I went back into the waiting room and came back and grabbed me and wanted to remeasure her head. She said because of her position, because she was head down, which was wonderful to hear, she couldn't get a great measurement of the head. The head was measuring several weeks behind, so at that point, she was at the 3rd percentile which is when they start to consider it a growth restriction. They had me come back every two weeks and then from 36 weeks onward, she was hovering and maintaining right around the 10th percentile. It was the 8th percentile, 9th percentile, and then the last one was right at the 10th percentile so she was just barely considered small for gestational age. There is a difference between being growth restricted and being small for gestational age. She was continuing to grow, so when I talked to– because I did talk to the home birth midwife team about these different concerns and they said, “One, we are not concerned about your Cesarean scar at all. That doesn't worry us.” And then two, they said that they don't necessarily worry about baby's size because ultrasounds can be pretty inaccurate unless the baby is not growing or there is because they also did a placenta doppler. I don't know if they do this in the US because I didn't have that experience when I was pregnant with my first. If there are any kind of concerns with blood flow to or from the placenta, then it wouldn't make sense to have a home birth, but if the placenta looks fine and if the baby is growing on their own curve, they don't worry so much about its size. Madison: Yes, totally. Megan: I actually did feel like having a smaller baby, in the end, set me up, I think, for more success with having a VBAC because she was smaller and she came out very cone headed which I was grateful for, so I think she did her part to make sure that she would be able to be born vaginally. But yeah. One provider did tell me that sometimes smaller babies can have a more difficult time tolerating labor and that was probably the one thing that I heard that made me feel most nervous about planning the home birth, but I knew if I at any point didn't feel comfortable with it, I could go straight into the hospital. I was not dead set at all on staying home. Madison: Can I just say that I see that a lot, the difference between how midwives explain risk and how OBs explain risk? I feel like OBs sometimes try to pull on your heartstrings a little bit to get you to sway one way or another where it sounds like your midwives were like, “This is the reality and you get to make your own decision.” Megan: Yes. Yes, and I appreciated that. I felt very supported by the midwives, very supported. And if there is a risk, I want to know about it, but yeah. Exactly like you said, I felt like the midwives gave me the information and let me make a decision about it on my own whereas at least one of the doctors that I spoke to was pretty shaming and told me– so in the end, I did agree. I had this hunch throughout this whole pregnancy. I wanted a Fourth of July baby. My baby was born on July 3rd, but the baby was going to come on that specific weekend. So I initially did agree to an induction. They recommended induction at 39 weeks for small gestational age, so I kind of felt pressured honestly to schedule this induction at my last appointment and I knew that I would just reschedule it if I needed to. I did schedule an induction, I think it was for Friday, and then called to push it back just by a few days because I had this hunch that the baby was going to come that weekend. It was scheduled for Friday and I talked to a doctor about pushing, just a random doctor that I hadn't met before because anyways that's who had called me for the appointment, on Monday and he was very shaming. He told me I was putting my baby at serious risk and told me that the placenta was going to stop working. I got off the phone with him. I rescheduled the induction still for Monday, but got off the phone and cried and cried and cried, so I was definitely impacted by some of the things that were said to me, but I also trusted the decision that I was making and didn't think that I was doing anything really risky by pushing the induction back by just a few days. Something that does bother me is that there's a lot of conversation about the risks of not acting, but there's not a lot of discussion about the risks of acting. And so in my mind, if small babies do have a hard time tolerating labor, then what's it going to be like for her if I get induced? To me, that seems a lot more aggressive if I'm deciding when she's going to come and maybe she's not ready yet. Maybe she wants a little more time to grow and then also, just the different methods of induction can be more aggressive and more difficult for a baby. There was a lot of, like I said, information thrown at me on how it's risky and not smart to not act, but no information about the risk of induction really was given to me, at least verbally. I was given some pamphlets that I could look through, but I think that's a big piece that's missing. I get that that's from a place probably of providers protecting themselves from a liability perspective, but I just wish that I hadn't been shamed because I spent a lot of during my pregnancy educating myself and I just really do feel for women who maybe haven't done that and I did feel as confident as I could about the decisions that I was making. For someone else in a different position where maybe they hadn't educated themselves or didn't feel as confident in their decision or their knowledge, I think it would have been an even more vulnerable position and I just think it breaks my heart that doctors do talk to women in such a vulnerable time in their lives the way that I was spoken to. Meagan: Absolutely. Megan: So anyways, that was my biggest complaint towards the end of the pregnancy. Otherwise, I felt like I was empowered even from– so the consultant that I was working with throughout the pregnancy was the same provider, it just happened to be a random doctor that called me on this one day. And even he, I didn't really like his style, but even he, I felt like, was like, “Okay. You're going to do what you're going to do and at the end of the day, we're here to support you.” So I did appreciate that doctor for that fact. The recommendation is for induction at 39 weeks for babies that are small for gestation age, but by the time I had gone to the doctor for that final growth scan, I think I was one day shy of 39 weeks, so that doctor and I decided to schedule an induction for when I was 40+1 because I was already at 39 weeks and I was like, “My baby is growing fine. You want me to come in for an induction tomorrow? That doesn't make any sense.” He agreed. “Let's schedule it for 40+1. Let's do a lot of” they call them stretch and sweeps here. I think maybe they are called membrane sweeps in the US. I don't know if there's a different term, but stretch and sweep. “Let's do as many as possible between now and then and then have you come in at 40+1.” So I went in for my first stretch and sweep when I was 39+1 and the midwife told me, “You're not dilated at all. We can't even do a stretch and sweep.” She tried and it was actually really uncomfortable because my body wasn't ready for it at all. I started bleeding right after that and I continued to bleed actually until my baby was born, so I just continued to kind of spot. Madison: Did hearing that you were not dilated at all, did that mess with your mental state at all, or did you know that this doesn't necessarily mean anything?Megan: Both. It definitely messed with me and the cervical checks– my whole labor turned into this mental game for me and the cervical checks did not help at all. But I also did know that cervical checks aren't a crystal ball and that it didn't necessarily mean anything about how things would look in the future, but it still was discouraging. But yeah. I started spotting. I started cramping. I started having menstrual cramping throughout the weeks. That's why going back and having the induction one week from them felt too rushed because I was like, “Look, my body isn't even ready for a stretch and sweep.” He wanted me to have 2-3. “How am I going to fit these in?” It was really uncomfortable for me and the fact that I bled didn't feel good for me either. So I was like, “I'm not going to schedule one for Monday. I don't feel ready.” So I scheduled another one for the following week and that's one of the reasons why I pushed the induction back to Monday to what I was 40+4 I think is what it was. Anyways, so yeah. I went back on Friday. Thursday night, when I was on my due date, I started to have contractions. I was cramping all week, but I started to have contractions that felt rhythmic. From 1:00 AM to 6:00 AM on Thursday, so I guess it was Friday morning, I was up having contractions every ten minutes that were lasting about a minute. They weren't painful. They got my attention and they kept me up. I was awake through that whole time, but I just put a heating pad on my pack. It was kind of intense menstrual cramps, really. But they were rhythmic. I woke my husband up that morning and was like, “Look, we're having our baby today. Are you ready to have a baby?” I was really excited and then they fizzled out. Basically, as soon I announced that the baby was coming that day they stopped completely. So I went back in, that was the day I had scheduled that second stretch and sweep. I went back in in the early afternoon for that and this is when it was even more discouraging. The midwife said, “In this last week that you've been having all this cramping and you've been having these consistent contractions last night, you're still a 0. I still can't even do a stretch and sweep for you.”The method of induction that I had talked to my consultant a bit about that I was the most comfortable with was the Foley bulb. I asked the midwife at the time because Friday was my original date of having the induction scheduled, I said, “Could you even place a Foley bulb right now with me not being dilated at all?” She said, “No. If you were to have come today, no. We wouldn't have even been able to place a Foley bulb.”So that was kind of validating. It was discouraging to hear that but also validating of my decision not to have the induction scheduled for that day because I think I would have just had everything packed and then just turned around and gone back home because I don't think I would have agreed to another method of induction at that point. Okay. So that was Friday. Still not dilated at all and I was confused because I had had all of these what I thought were these contractions. The midwife asked me, “Were you feeling the contractions mostly in your back?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “Because it looks like your baby is sunny-side up, so OP I think is what it is.” Posterior, anyways, faced the wrong way. That was really discouraging to hear because my first baby was breech and now it was just like, “What's with me and these babies that aren't in the right positions?” So it kind of sounded like I was having back labor and it wasn't productive at all because my baby wasn't in the right position. I went home and had a normal evening except for the fact that I was exhausted because I had been up for five hours the night before and hadn't really slept since 1:00 AM.I told my husband and I knew that I was going to be having a baby in the next week, so I told my husband, “I need to go to sleep at 7:00 PM.” He put my toddler down for bed and I did. I went to sleep at 7:00 and woke up at midnight with, very similar to the night before, these contractions that weren't super intense but were rhythmic and coming in a pattern. I had talked to– oh, I hired a doula. I hadn't mentioned that, but I talked to her about the fact that the baby was in a bad position and she suggested some things to get her into the right position. One of the things that she suggested was curb walking. So this is going to make me sound like a crazy person, but when I had insomnia during the pregnancy, I live in a very safe neighborhood. I would sometimes get up in the middle of the night and go on walks. I had the urge to do that this night too, so at midnight, I got up and went and walked around my little village and did curb walking while listening to The VBAC Link. Actually, in hindsight, because my labor was so long, maybe wasn't the wisest choice to be exercising essentially before this marathon that I was about to do, but I also don't regret it because it was actually a really nice memory of just me alone. I was talking to God, talking to my baby, and telling my baby, “I'm ready for you to come.” I was listening to The VBAC Link like I said. My mom even called me because there is this time difference. I talked on the phone with her for a little bit and it was kind of sweet. I did a bunch of curb walking and got home at 2:00 AM and tried to go back to sleep. I laid back down and was still having the contractions rhythmically but similar to the night before where it was one every 10 minutes. And then, I heard a little pop sound which I would not have heard if it was during the day, but since it was at night and I happened to be awake, I heard a little pop sound. This was at 3:30 and then went to the bathroom. I couldn't tell if I was peeing or if I was leaking fluid, but then went again and it was becoming more obvious that I was leaking fluid, but it was just a trickle. I was getting excited so I went downstairs. I'm not sure what I did for a half hour, but I did call the hospital and let them know, “I think my water broke.” And at this point, as soon as my water broke, I think I had this surge of adrenaline because my contractions were really intensified and I just kind of got into this state. But I did want to wait because the morning before, I had woken my husband up really early and told him, “We're having a baby today.” I wanted to wait. I decided that 5:00 AM was a reasonable time to wake him up. I don't know why, but that was morning because I had been up all night. Meagan: That was long enough. You waited long enough. Megan: I did. I waited an hour and a half. I called the midwife and they were going to come by to see if it was in fact my fluid. So yeah. I woke him up at 5:00 and then the midwife I think arrived at 5:30 and came to my home which I was so, so grateful that I had planned this home birth because I had midwives come to my home three different times. I would have at least for the first two times, at least the first time, at 5:30 in the morning, I would have had to go by myself. I don't know what I would have done with just my toddler and my husband and how we would have worked that out, but having someone come to my home was really, really nice. I declined a cervical check at that time. She had offered one, but because my waters had broken and I know the risk of infection goes up ever so slightly once it has, so I didn't know if there had been any progress, but at that time, she told me, “You're clearly not in labor to where we would stay” so she left and said that she was ending her shift at 5:00 PM. She said, “Maybe I'll see you before I end my work day.” I was like, “Maybe? Won't you definitely? Aren't I going to have this baby in the next few hours?” I was confused that she wasn't sure if it would be her that would come back even though it was 12 hours from now. I did. I did feel like my contractions went from feeling noticeable to feeling uncomfortable and I was trying to do some things to keep them going because I knew that at this point, once your waters had broken, there is a little bit of this time clock that they want you to be on. And so I was trying to do things. I took a bath. I was trying to do things that were relaxing. I was doing things with my toddler that I thought would give me an oxytocin boost, trying to do things to keep things moving and I did. My contractions did continue. I asked my doula to come. I think she came around 12:30 in the afternoon. As soon as she arrived, I don't think it had anything to do with her because she was wonderful and I felt supported by her, I think it was just something about maybe having someone new come into my home or something, I started to talk with her and my contractions slowed down. I was still having them but they weren't as consistent, so things kind of did start to stall there and my daughter's daycare provider, fortunately, ended up being available. So I had her come pick her up at 3:00 and my thought was, “As soon as my daughter is in good hands and I know she is being taken care of, then maybe my contractions will pick up and I'll be able to settle into them.”But they didn't really. They didn't really start to intensify again until early evening and then I think it was at 7:00 PM. So now, we're over 12 hours since my water had broken, maybe 17 hours. Somewhere around there. I had a midwife come back to check me and she checked me again. Actually, yeah. Anyways, I don't know if I necessarily would have wanted to be checked, but what she said was– they had told me I had a birth pool that I needed to wait until a midwife was there to get into the pool, so I asked about getting into the pool because I was wanting other options for coping with the contractions. They said, “Well, we usually recommended checking you first because we don't want it to stall you. We want to make sure you're far enough along.” I don't know. I think they just wanted to check on me to see if they needed to stay and that was kind of a reason for it. They checked me and I still was not dilated at all. I was so discouraged! I was like, “What is my body doing if this isn't moving forward?” I was tired at this point and starting to feel more of that pressure of this 3:30 AM deadline that was starting to feel close to needing to go into the hospital. So she suggested that I rest and that I take Tylenol and try to rest. I did take Tylenol and I did try to rest, but the only position that I was comfortable in during the contractions was on my hands and knees, so this whole time, I would be talking with my doula, talking with my husband, and they would know that my contraction was coming because I would collapse on my hands and knees. This whole time, that's what I was doing to cope with the contractions. Meagan: That's making me think about the position.Megan: Yeah. Meagan: Asynclitic or something. Megan: Yeah. Yeah. I think that my body knew that that's what I needed to do in order to get her into the right position, but it was the only way that I could cope with contractions. So I couldn't sleep because every few minutes, the contractions were coming frequently at this point too. My doula, we decided to call the midwife back out because they wanted you to have three in 10 minutes that lasted a minute long each and I was having those, so I felt like it was a good time to have them come back. And then to hear that even though I was meeting that threshold of calling them back out, I still wasn't dilated at all was really, really discouraging. But that midwife said, “Feel free. Try to get some rest. Feel free to go into your pool and call us back if things change. Otherwise, go into the hospital at 3:30 AM.” So I tried to rest, wasn't able to rest. But I did get into the pool. I think I tried to rest from 9:00 PM to 11:00. I think I ended up getting into the pool at 11 and was in the pool for 3 hours. This is the part of my birth story that feels kind of dark. I was really loud. As soon as my water broke, I started vocalizing through all of the contractions. That's just what my body wanted to do. By the time I got into the pool, I was thrashing around in the pool making crazy animal noises and I felt like a killer whale in this pool. I was alone because the doula and my husband were there, but I was in the pool by myself and I was in a lot of discomforts. I was just really discouraged. I think before I even got into the pool when I was with my husband and I went into the bed to try to rest, I told my husband, “Look. I think I just need to go to the hospital and tell them that I want another Cesarean not because I want another Cesarean and not because I am in so much discomfort that I can't tolerate this anymore, but because my body's not making any progress right now. I don't know what it's doing. I don't think that it's going to make any progress. I have never had this experience before of it working, so maybe my body just doesn't work. I don't want to continue this and exhaust myself even further just to have surgery, just to need to take care of a newborn. I don't think I can do all of that. So why don't we just go in for a Cesarean–” Madison: That's a lot to be processing while you're in labor. How long had it been at this point? How many hours from when you first noticed a contraction? Megan: It was about the 24-hour mark. Madison: Okay. Megan: And I think that if there is something about me, I think labors are just long and that can be normal and I was really grateful for my doula. That's the biggest way that she supported me is telling me that this is normal because it did not feel normal to me at all. But I think yes. This is what I was going to say. I think that if there is something about me that isn't so well-lined up with the birthing process, it's that I kind of do overthink and I think I had a really hard time getting out of my thinking brain and just letting my body do what it needed to do. I was. These were all of the thoughts that were racing. Especially, I think it all started with that 24-hour deadline because they had even scheduled the induction at the 24-hour mark. I felt this time pressure from the very beginning and I think being in my head in that way was not helpful for my progression. So if there is something about me that made the process more difficult, I think it's that. But yeah. I was definitely really discouraged before getting in the pool and then being in the pool, while it did feel good to be weightless, it did just feel like a darker– and it was the middle of the night– time when my birth felt the darkest. Getting closer to 3:30 AM, they had scheduled me for an induction. My doula, I think this was at 3:00 AM, suggested that I call the midwives because she could tell that things had intensified for me while I was in the pool. But I called the midwives yet again another time and asked them to come out to my home again and check me again to see if I had made any progress maybe they could stay and I could avoid having to go into the hospital because she knew that my preference was to be able to stay at home. The midwives came back out and the same midwife that had checked me at 7:00 PM or whatever time it was checked me again and said that I still was not dilated at all and that I looked the same as I had looked before. I was so, so, so discouraged. At that point, I kind of wanted, honestly, to go to the hospital because I wanted some support. I wanted some extra support with pain and I knew that I needed to rest. Yeah. I was at my limit. So we did. We got some things ready and headed to the hospital. I think we got there at 5:30 AM. Everybody talks about the car ride being horrible. The car ride was horrible. It really was because I was only comfortable on my hands and knees and I couldn't be on my hands and knees. I did have a TENS machine that I used throughout those first 27 hours before I went to the hospital and that was actually really helpful. I recommend a TENS machine to anyone. That really helped me cope for those first 27 hours. So we got to the hospital and actually getting to the hospital felt like a big relief because we just had extra support. At that point, I had been up since midnight, my husband had been up since 5:00 AM. The doula, I think, had got up pretty early as well but came over to my home at 12:30-1:00 PM, so we had all been up and at it for a while. But getting to the hospital and having some fresh, energized people supported us. It turns out that we actually were the only people there which is really unusual because usually, the hospitals are pretty overloaded, but it happened to be a night when I was the only patient there. All the midwives brought a special energy to them which I think is because they weren't taking care of anyone else and they were truly energized and fresh. So that felt good. They had the room set up for me with some pretty lighting. The town I live in in England is known for having a pretty cathedral and it had a view of the cathedral. I felt really welcomed and supported upon arrival at the hospital. I was never against the idea of going to the hospital, but it felt like a turning point in the labor arriving there and having such a sweet welcome. So I got there and they talked to me about some different options for some pain relief. They offered me an injection of diamorphine which they said could cause some problems for the baby. It could make them a little sleepy so they don't recommend it if you're about to give birth, but it can be great for these earlier stages of labor when you're not dilated. And then the doctor that was there came in who was wonderful. She suggested that I get on IV antibiotics. I wasn't hugely concerned. In fact, The VBAC Link episode that I was listening to right before my water broke actually was an interview with Dr. Stu and he had mentioned that the risk of infection only goes from .5% to 1% once your water is broken, so I didn't think there was a huge risk of infection, but at this point at the 24-hour mark, I was happy to go into the hospital because I didn't feel like I was coping well with labor and I just needed more support with pain management and to rest. But also, I was like, “Okay. I'm already against medical advice because of the Cesarean. I'm already against medical advice for home birth for this home birth.” I really didn't want there to be this third risk factor that I was fighting up against. I was happy to go into the hospital at this point even though I wasn't really concerned about the increased risk of infection at the 24-hour mark. I felt like it was this artificial timeline, but again, didn't want to be pushing back against a third reason to not have a home birth. So she suggested IV antibiotics which I agreed to and then suggested that I be started on Pitocin so the Foley bulb, I guess, wasn't an option anymore because my water had broken is what she said. She also suggested another cervical check which I didn't really want, but she said it could be helpful for her to take a look at my waters and make sure that they are fully broken because I guess sometimes if they are not fully broken, then there can be a cushion of the water bag that maybe prevents there being that full pressure against the cervix which can prevent dilation. She did. She said there was a little bit of fluid in between my baby's head and my cervix. She broke that. They started me on IV antibiotics. I did get this diamorphine injection and was able to rest. I was started on Pitocin. I was able to rest. The diamorphine that they gave me did really allow me to rest in between contractions. I could still feel them and then they started the Pitocin at 8:30 AM. I think around a few hours into that, the medication started to wear off. The injection that I got was only supposed to last about 4 hours and the Pitocin really started to intensify my contractions. They were just on top of each other, so before I had been getting a break in between them, but these were back to back which was kind of the point– and I did ask them to do the Pitocin slow and to tell me before they increased the dose. Those were my requests because I know that they can sometimes up the Pitocin maybe without telling you once you have the IV placed and then also they can maybe increase the dose pretty quickly. They did give me a smaller amount and increased it slowly, but I could feel the contractions intensify where I eventually asked, I think around 11:00 AM, to turn it back down because I wasn't coping well with the pain from the Pitocin especially with having such a long labor already. At that point, the midwife was like, “Look, this is going to work or this isn't going to work. We really need to give the Pitocin an opportunity to work,” so she wanted me to keep the higher dose of Pitocin. I said, “Okay, but I need more pain relief,” so I did get the epidural which was kind of hard for me because I didn't originally want that and also really because in my mind, any intervention that I did decrease my ability to have a VBAC. But also, in my mind, I still wasn't dilated at all and so I'm like, “Look, I'm needing an epidural when I still haven't dilated at all.” I just felt a little bit pathetic about that. But I did. I got the epidural and that worked really well. I didn't have any pain hardly at all. I could hardly even feel those contractions and then at the 6-hour mark from when they had started the Pitocin. They started it at 8:30. They checked me again at 2:30 and I should say, an hour before this, I started to feel a lot of pressure on my behind. I just started to feel a lot, a lot of pressure. I told the midwife that and she said that it was a good sign. When she checked me at 2:30 PM, she said, “The baby's head is right there.” That was just the sweetest moment for me. I felt so much relief. Meagan: After all of it too, it's like, “Yes.”Megan: I was in disbelief in all of the right ways. I was just so, so, so happy and so relieved. It was not what I was expecting to hear. Honestly, I was kind of expecting to hear the same thing I had heard so far like, “Oh, still not dilated at all.” I knew at that point that the recommendation would be for a Cesarean, so I was really, really happy. I was overjoyed. What they suggested was that we wait an hour from then. They give you an hour to relax and rest and then you start pushing. That hour was the sweetest time in my whole labor experience because my husband and I talked about what position I wanted to push in. My husband and I finally decided. We had the hardest time naming this baby and decided on a name for our baby. I was just overjoyed. So yeah. Then an hour came and it was time to push. I decided that I wanted to push in a squatting position because the hands and knees position, even though that was the position I wanted to be in the whole time, felt a little bit vulnerable for me. With all of these people behind me, I wanted to see what was going on so I wanted to be facing forward and I wanted to be squatting. The pushing phase didn't– so I did have the epidural although I had a really low dose. You can do clicks of it and I had done the first two clicks but hadn't done it in a while, so I was able to feel the pushing, but it didn't feel painful for me. It could have been because of the anesthesia. It could be because I am someone who actually felt relief because I know that's the case for some women, but they started to– this was the frustrating part. One of the frustrating things about being in the hospital was that they had these CTG monitors here. It's like the non-stress test bands on your tummy that they wanted me to have the whole time. But because I was on my hands and knees throughout the birth, they kept shifting around, and then they'd be concerned about losing the tracing on the baby. Anyways, so when I was pushing in the squatting position, I was leaning forward and the monitor shifted. So while I was pushing, they started to have some concerns about the baby's heartbeat even though I think it was just that it shifted and it started to pick up my heartbeat instead because after the baby was born, that's what they told me may have happened. But there was this drama around the pushing phase of, “We need to get this baby out right now.” They were suggesting episiotomy. They were suggesting forceps and it just felt like this huge sense of urgency. They called the doctor in and all of these people were rushing in. I wasn't super concerned about my baby's well-being at that moment, but I also was like, “I know that I need to get this baby out.” So I did. I pushed her out in 20 minutes I think it was. She came pretty quickly and that was exhausting after everything I had been doing. I was so grateful that I had the rest that I had both from the pain relief that was injected and also from the epidural because even though there are parts of you that don't like the fact that I needed the pain relief, I think in the end, I needed that rest in order to be able to effectively push her out as quickly as I was able to because it was such hard physical work to push her out. I felt like I needed to do it really quickly. But yeah. She came. She was born at 4:14 PM. She came out. She was 6.5 pounds. A little, super skinny thing and she's the sweetest baby. She's the very, very sweetest baby. I felt so grateful to be able to have a VBAC and so much relief that she was okay after everything. The doctor who came into the room when they called him in I think also knew that the monitoring was just kind of funky because he told me at the moment, even before he got fully involved, that my baby was fine and winked at me and gave my husband a thumbs up. I was just grateful for him even within some of the panic of the pushing phase and of really the whole pregnancy and the whole birthing experience, I was grateful for the calm and the peace that I did experience throughout it all. And yeah. She was perfectly healthy. They, I guess, test the blood of the placenta to make sure that she wasn't oxygen deprived more than they would expect a baby to be and she wasn't, so they didn't have any concerns with her after she was born. They didn't have any concerns about infection. The cord was wrapped around her neck multiple times and her whole body. I had the longest cord the midwife had ever seen and she said she had been practicing for a while, but I wouldn't have even known had they not told me. She was absolutely fine.The midwife gave me a tour of the placenta. I told them that I was interested in seeing the placenta and she was like, “Oh, that's my favorite,” and gave me a whole tour of it. She showed me everything and was really enthusiastic about it. They brought me toast and tea for me and my doula and my husband afterward which is a cultural thing here to have and that was also a really sweet moment. I tried to get the baby to latch right away. She just was with me the whole time. We didn't have to be separated at all. And yeah. It was a good experience in the end. There are some things looking back that maybe I would have liked to do differently or I might do differently next time, but in the end, I was processing some of this with my husband last week in preparation for knowing that I had this interview and my husband was like, “But look, we got what we wanted,” and that's true. Even if maybe, I needed more pain relief that I wanted or there are different things that were a little bit more chaotic or dramatic in the end, we got what we wanted and there are more things about my birth experience that I'm happy with than maybe parts of it that I wish maybe were a little bit different. So in the end, it was good. Meagan: I love it. Sometimes those ends when it's like, “I've got to do this right now,” it can be really intense. Really intense, but I think it's pretty incredible how we are just capable of dialing in 150,000% and just getting the job done. Megan: I felt like my eyes were going to come out of their sockets, I was pushing so hard. Meagan: You were pushing so hard. Megan: I really didn't want an episiotomy or the forceps so that was also a motivator for me. Because I wasn't actually that concerned about my baby. There was this peace that kind of transcended the whole experience, a peace that was incongruent with what was going on in the room that almost felt like, “Okay, I'll get this baby out as quickly as possible to keep you all happy, but my baby's fine and I'm fine.” And then to have the doctor come into the room and kind of reflect back to me what I was already experiencing that my baby's fine, I'm fine and everything is going to be fine. But providers see things. They see bad outcomes probably more often than they would like to, so they are geared up, especially in a hospital setting for being prepared for something going south. So I don't necessarily fault them for that. Meagan: Yeah. For sure. Awesome. Awesome. Well, huge congrats. Love on that little one. Thank you for sharing and taking the time today to be with us. Madison, is there anything that you wanted to share today as well? I want to make sure we hear your voice before we end. Madison: Yeah. I just wanted to say, Megan, the difference in your birth stories and how you really emphasized that you made sure that you got educated the second time around, I'm a birth educator at a birth center here in the area and that's my whole thing. Education is the way that you can, first off, minimize birth trauma and second, have your best chance at not only a vaginal birth but a positive birth experience. Education is so, so important so I'm just really happy that you did that for yourself. An amazing birth story. I'm so proud of you as a doula. Megan: Thank you, yeah. The education piece is so important. I don't think you can educate yourself enough. I really don't because I had educated myself and there were still a lot of things that came up. I wasn't expecting my waters to break before. There were still things that come up that you might not know a ton about. I think it's also okay to ask for education at the moment which I didn't do enough of but to ask for the information if you're in a state to do so at the moment because you can't educate yourself enough and there are going to be things that will come up that maybe you don't know everything about. Information is power. Madison: Yes. Hiring a well-educated doula is a great way to be able to get that information at the moment too if you are not comfortable asking questions to your provider at the moment. Megan: Yes. I agree. I'm very grateful for my doula.Meagan: Awesome. Well, thank you ladies for being with us today. It was such a pleasure. Megan: Thank you. Madison: Thank you, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

TVL Holiday Special #2 Eyla Cuenca + Processing the Past and Preparing for Your Upcoming Birth

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 12, 2022 34:01

Meagan is joined today by the amazing Eyla Cuenca! Eyla's many years of experience as a birth worker have led her to specialize in holistic birth guidance. She helps women process past birth experiences and prepare for the most optimal future birth experiences. Eyla has so much wisdom and such a beautiful way with words. You will definitely want to take notes and save her advice!“There is no right way to do things. It's simply what is in alignment with you. That's what matters at the end of the day.”Additional LinksEyla's WebsiteBebo Mia's WebinarHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Meagan: Hello, hello. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have an episode today to bring to you all about preparing, processing, and so many other things. This is something that a lot of people will write us about on our Instagram, our email box, “How do I process my previous births? How do I process what I'm going into and how do I prepare for birth when I've never even given birth?”Now, I want to just note on that right there that just because you've had a Cesarean does not mean you haven't given birth. That is just simply not true, so if that is in your headspace, I want you to crinkle it all up and throw it away. You have given birth. You just haven't maybe labored because I know for me, I hadn't labored. I hadn't progressed. I hadn't dilated, but that left me questioning, “Could I dilate?” especially when I had a provider telling me that I couldn't. So I'm excited today to bring Eyla on. She is going to talk all about the wonderful things that she does. Eyla is a holistic birth guide doula, trainer, childbirth educator, lactation counselor, health freedom advocate, and mother. That is a lot just right there. Her work is dedicated to offering guidance that supports women and men in the process that is a return to the deepest knowing about birth, individual sovereignty, and the body's innate intelligence. Wow. A conscious birth building a conscious world.Does that just give you chills? Because that just gave me chills. Eyla, thank you so much for being here with all of us today and taking the time out of your very busy life where you do a whole bunch of things. In fact, you even mentioned in the beginning that you homeschool. What do you not do? What do you not do? Seriously, thank you so much. Normally, we read a review, but we are actually just going to get right into it. I want to know more about what led you into doing what you do today, all of the many things. Eyla: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. So what led me to this? I actually was a birth photographer for many years before I started holding space as a birth doula and before I became a childbirth educator. I've been in the birth space for quite a long time. What I started noticing as a photographer, kind of a fly on the wall, was how different births were unfolding for women in different environments and how her birth team would also influence the energy feel of the birth. I started taking note of all of these factors. I was a part of a few transfers meaning from a birth center to a hospital. I was a part of a woman's journey when she would decide not to go to a hospital and just work with a midwife and do a home birth. I started noticing all of these nuances and I really wanted to get more involved and offer guidance. So I've done various trainings for myself and carved out what is now this path that I am on of offering support as a holistic birth guide. Holistic really means all-encompassing. Whatever journey you're on, whatever part of your journey you're on, I'm going to meet you there. There is no right way to do things and that's really what I've learned over the last decade is that there is no right or wrong. It's simply what is in alignment with you. That's what matters at the end of the day. Meagan: I love that. I love that. It's so important to touch on that because I feel like in today's society, we put so much emphasis on right, wrong, failure, and success. Eyla: Right. Meagan: It's so hard to feel that you failed. It's so hard to even be labeled, even labeled on a medical record that you failed. Eyla: Yeah. Meagan: Or that you didn't do this. I know that for me, when I was reviewing my previous Cesarean op reports, it triggered me and I knew. I knew. I was a doula at that point. I knew I didn't fail, but seeing the word fail was so hard. So I love that you're like, “I meet you wherever you are. You didn't fail.” Yeah. I just love that. I love that so much. Eyla: Yeah, the litmus test for a successful birth if we want to look at it, if we want to use the word successful is how you feel postpartum. Even if a woman has had an “ideal birth” and there is a lot of sludge that she is working through postpartum, that's indicative to me that there was something about the birth that was not resonant. Meagan: Right. Elya: You know? That, for me, is like I said, the litmus test. What is happening to you postpartum? Are you having triggers when you are looking at your report? Are you feeling like you are still ruminating about something that occurred or something that someone said? There is always something to process. Even for women who have had an epidural, everything went smoothly, and no bumps in the road, no obvious bumps in the road, she might be having a lot of anxiety postpartum and she's not really sure why because everything went fine. Baby is alive and healthy. She is alive and healthy.When you start to dig in, you realize that she maybe didn't do things a certain way that she thought she wanted to. Maybe there was someone in the room who was not treating her well, but she just ignored it and betrayed herself, and told herself that it went fine. Meagan: Yes. Right there. Eyla: Our postpartum state is really indicative of how things shook out during the birth. At face value, it might not seem like anything was wrong, but when we start to dig, there might be things that we just need to unbraid. It's not right or wrong, but there is an unbraiding process that is an opportunity.Meagan: Yeah, for sure. I love that you pointed that out because sometimes I will have clients tell me their past birth experience and I'm like, “Oh, it sounds so amazing.” Your “ideal” birth and they are like, “Yeah, but this.” Right? And I'm like, “Okay.” It might not have even been something that happened, but it was something someone said. It's so crazy how we look back like yeah. That totally did happen every what that you would want it to happen, but like you said, there may be something that didn't happen the exact way they wanted or someone said something. We hold onto those things. I know for me, I held onto something. No, my second birth didn't go the way I wanted it. It didn't, but at the same time, I was getting some things in that birth that I did desire. But something that was said to me held on for a long time. Sometimes, it's those little things and it's hard to recognize them. How can we go, especially if we had this “birth”, but how can we go back and realize what it may be that is triggering us or bringing us into this space of confusion of why we are feeling this way?Eyla: I think it's first important to recognize that we really can't do this in a vacuum. If a woman is trying to process her birth on her own, it's difficult. It's helpful to have someone that can reflect back on what you are saying, that can just reflect back to you what they are hearing. And also being witnessed by someone is really helpful to express. It helps us in expressing. We feel safe in expressing ourselves, so you want to find someone that you feel safe talking to whether it's a good friend. Maybe they don't know anything about birth or it's someone who assists with birth processing. That's something that I do. I do one on one sessions. Even if it's a birth from 15 years ago, I have clients who birthed 15 years ago and they are like, “I'm just now realizing that things didn't go down in a way that felt good for me.” So what that can look like is just walking through, “How did the labor begin?” talking about the labor and pregnancy, reflecting on the dynamic between the woman and her partner at the time, and then looking at, “When did we arrive at our birthplace? What happened? Who was there? What were the faces that you were experiencing? What were the things that were being said? What did you plan for? What went differently?”After looking at the big picture, going back and saying, “Well, let's look at what purpose and role each of those things played in our growth.” It's an alchemy process that we go through. It's like your wounds become your gifts. How do we look at everything that shook out and how do we spin that into gold? It's not negating that things were painful or that things were deeply wounding on an emotional level. We want to acknowledge that, but we want to say, “How do we alchemize that?” Otherwise, you're just circling the drain for years and years. I know women in their 60s who still talk about how horrible their birth was and how they would never do it again. It's like, “Wow. Do you really want to feel that way for the rest of your life?” That's why I tell people in preparation for birth, “Really educate yourself. It's never going to look exactly how you want it to, but you can get pretty close based on how well you prepare and how flexible you become.” Right? Because making a birth plan is not all of it. It's how flexible are you with change. Meagan: Yes. Eyla: So if you have those components, your birth is going to unfold the way that it should and you are going to be in deep acceptance. But if you just walk into it and say, “Well, I'm just going to show up at my birthplace. The midwife is going to take care of it because midwives are into natural things. They'll just do all of the natural things and I don't need to think about it,” so we kind of dig our heads in the sand. That's often when things don't go as planned and they don't turn out how you want them to. I would say that getting into space with someone who can reflect back to you what you experienced and sometimes just speaking it out loud is all you need to do. It's helpful if you know someone who understands physiological birth, so they can say, “Oh yeah. Sometimes when you get an epidural, it can slow down the baby's heart rate and that's probably why you heard a deceleration in the heart rate and that's often what can lead to a C-section.” Then for the woman, it clicks for her as, “Oh. That's what it was. There wasn't something wrong with me or the baby.” Meagan: Yes. Eyla: It was the epidural and it's okay. Now I know. And then that unlocks and she can move on. Meagan: Yeah. I think sometimes that can be hard because I've heard so many people say, “Epidural doesn't cause C-sections.” I don't want to say that is true. Epidurals don't necessarily cause C-sections, but there are things that happen sometimes after an epidural takes place. Eyla: Yeah. There are symptoms of the epidural that can cause a C-section. It's not that A + B = C, but sometimes A and B together can go to C. They can go to D. They can go into different things and you have to understand that it's a possibility always, but it doesn't necessarily mean it will cause the C-section, but it is possible. Meagan: It is possible. Yeah. Another thing that stood out to me just now is a lot of things, but another thing that you just said– we were talking about birth plans. So many of my clients and maybe you have seen this through your experience through birth, but so many of my clients want these birth plans. I'm not going to tell you that a birth plan is bad, but sometimes I feel like when we have a birth plan in place, we hold ourselves to these high expectations and we have to check this birth plan off. But when you were saying, “How flexible are you with change?” I was to encourage all of you listening whether you have had one, two, three, or however many Cesareans or maybe you are a first-time mom listening and you are wanting to learn how to avoid Cesarean and how things can pan out. If we can't be flexible in childbirth, that can be really hard on us. It can impact us because childbirth doesn't happen exactly the same way every time. Even my third kid was totally different. I love that you said, “How flexible are you with change?” Is there anything that you would suggest or any tips that you could give for learning how to be flexible? Because we want what we want. We desire what we desire. We have this vision and we want this vision to pan out exactly how we want it to. That is no shame. We are human beings, right? I go to Target. I see that shirt. I want that shirt. I'm going to do what I want to get that shirt. We go into birth and we have this birth plan and it's this path. This is what we want. We are here to get what we want. Sometimes it doesn't happen, so is there any way that you could give us any ideas of how to learn how to be flexible while also not getting all of your desires and shoving them to the side saying, “Oh, I have to be flexible because birth doesn't pan out.” does that make sense?Eyla: Totally. I think the latter like you said, “Oh, I just have to do whatever comes comes.” For me, there's a level of self-betrayal there because you're not asserting your needs which you should be. Meagan: Yes. Eyla: I don't necessarily think that polarization is helpful to go to that end of the spectrum, however, I want to say that when we want to look at how to become more flexible, there are two main components for me. One is having faith, which a lot of people don't. It's having a lot of trust and faith in this process. Meagan: It's hard. Eyla: It's really hard, but that is something that is deeply personal when it comes to having faith in every area of our lives that what is laid out is meant for us. Meagan: Mhmm. Eyla: Seeing what we call curses and blessings and gifts. That's how we have to look at things. Meagan: It's a change of mind. Eyla: It's a perspective shift. Meagan: Uh-huh. That's what I was going to say. It's a whole perspective of, “Let's look at it this way.” Elya: And it's a level of spirituality that a lot of people are resistant to for whatever reason. You know? So there's that if you're asking me which you are. The other piece of that for flexibility is looking at where our desire to control comes from. That's going to require a level of inquiry that a lot of people are uncomfortable with accessing because that does require us to look at our history. I'm not one to be stuck living in the past, however, it is helpful to look at certain experiences that we've had throughout childhood and growing up that cause us to really need control in order to feel safe. That comes from being in an unstable environment in childhood, right? Did you have a parent that required caretaking and did you have a parent who was emotionally volatile that required you as a child to be like, “Okay. I can't control how my parents are responding to me. I can't control the yelling. I can't control the physical abuse. I can't control the up and down, and schedule changes all of the time, but what I can control is this tiny little world in front of me. Maybe I organize my toys and my clothes a certain way. Maybe I eat certain foods because this is what I have control over.” That compounds and becomes a patterning in our adult life of, “Well, if I don't control the time and the place, who my OB is, the nurse that's going to be there, and the birth plan, and the this, my hair, my clothes–” we become hyper-controlling of everything because that's how we feel safe because as a child—Meagan: That was our safe space. Eyla: We could access safety. That's just one example because, for me, holding onto that birth plan so rigidly is that there is a fear that if we lose control, we're not going to be safe. Meagan: Yeah. Totally. Sometimes that's really hard to process. I have to let go of this and I'm going to be safe and create this safe space. This is not necessarily for VBAC in general. This is just preparation. You do a lot. Obviously, I just read off 10,000 caps that you wear and there are caps that you wear that we don't even know about, right? You have all of these caps, I swear, that you wear, but in addition to processing and stuff like that, preparing. Physiological birth– we talked about it. How can you prepare for that specifically? What tips would you give to really prepare for that and hone in on that? Eyla: So, yeah on the physiological level, what I invite people to do is return to what I would call indigenous ways of moving. How we've moved before, how we moved as human beings before modern society and modern design. What does that mean? It does not mean doing a specialized pregnancy yoga or pregnancy pilates program. Meagan: Dance. Eyla: It means, how did we move before we had these specific things? We were squatting often. We were bending down to garden. We were resting in a squat. We were sitting in tailor pose. We were weaving, sitting in tailor pose for two hours. Meagan: Hands and knees. Eyla: We were walking, hands and knees. We were climbing things. So if we integrate all of those natural movements which are very second nature for our body, that's the best physiological preparation for birth. There is no $5,000 program that is going to make your body. It's nothing like that. It's daily movement and resting actively. I could sit in a chair. I could slump into the couch and rest or I could rest in a squat against a wall. I could check my emails and rest. I could scroll through my phone while I'm in a squat. Resting should be active and that's going to open the pelvis. It's going to add elasticity to the perineum. It's going to make the woman's legs stronger and ready for being in what is the marathon of labor. Meagan: Yes. Eyla: So that's what I would say. We just don't move enough as a society. You don't need to be doing high-level cardio either. You don't need to go to the gym. You need to walk at least an hour every day and rest actively. That's what I would say. The other part of the preparation is a lot of the more psycho/spiritual work that I talk about. It's owning where we feel fear and say, “Okay. Well, I want to feel safe. This is my birth plan. I need it to feel safe.” Well, if you feel the need for that safety, it's because there is something about your birth environment or your birth team that doesn't feel good. So let's address that because you shouldn't have to rely on a birth plan to feel safe. You shouldn't have to rely on a birth plan. You should be able to communicate the things that you want and if you're trusting that your birth team is hearing you, then you are not going to feel so attached to that plan like, “Follow it.” Right? You're not going to be controlling. You're going to be able to surrender. So we have to look also at who is supporting us and if is this the right environment for us.Meagan: You know, that just resonated with me so much because, with my second, I wanted this VBAC. I didn't have a doula and my husband wasn't on board. I had this feeling at 36 weeks that I should change providers but then I didn't because I didn't want to hurt his feelings or I felt bad that I was leaving his care. Eyla: Oh, you were caretaking your doctor. Meagan: Yes. Yeah. I really did. I was like, “I don't want to leave him. He's been with me for two babies,” and all of these things. I went to the same place that I knew deep down, but I didn't want to accept it that it triggered me even just walking into my prenatal visits. Eyla: You went back to the scene of the crime. Meagan: Yes. I went back there and I kept going back there. I would feel it when I was there and I would feel angst. I would get more annoyed as I was waiting longer in the waiting room and I never felt like that. I am actually very calm and chill, very lax, probably too lax of a person. So all of these things were signs and things happening and then obviously, I had a repeat Cesarean and I wasn't necessarily supported during that birth. It happened and I have worked through it and processed it, but with my third, I had a provider who was super supportive. Super supportive and everyone was like, “Yeah, you are totally going to have this VBAC. Oh my gosh.” And something didn't sit right. Something did not sit right. Every time I would go in, I was like, “I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.” I ended up leaving his care, a supportive provider at 24 weeks and I changed care. Exactly like what you just explained. I knew I wanted a VBAC. I knew I wanted that. Other than that, there was nothing set in my way during my labor with my third that I was like, “I have to do this. I have to do this.” It was like I was just there and I was in full trust of my entire team in that space. I felt that that space held me and it held me tight. It held me warm and I felt all of the love and all of the support and all of the tingles along the way because truly, I mean, I don't want to give myself a cookie, but I nailed it with my birth team. Eyla: Give yourself the cookie. Meagan: It took a long time for me to find it, but having that in that space, even when it was taking longer and there was a question of, “What do we do? We've been doing this for a really long time.” Even then, it was okay. It was okay. Eyla: That's so beautiful. Meagan: And I loved that. I loved that space and I will cherish it forever. I will say that there were some things postpartum that happened that I was kind of not super loving. That's more what I hold onto interestingly enough. I hold onto that and I still talk about this. I probably still haven't processed this and I probably might be that 60-year-old in my sixties talking about–Eyla: Yeah, we'll process it one day. Just call me.Meagan: Yeah, my postpartum. I think that processing is going to come to know more, just answering the questions that I have, right? It wasn't bad. There were just some things that I was like, “What happened? What was that?” But yeah. I think what you were saying is getting that team, feeling that space where you might still have those desires of those birth preferences, but it's not even something you're focused on. You don't even question it. Eyla: No, if there is any part of you that is like, “This doesn't feel good.” If you are sitting in that waiting room and you're like, “I don't even like being in this waiting room.” It's not just because waiting rooms suck. There are some waiting rooms I've sat in where I didn't even notice I was waiting. I felt good. I felt safe. I felt at ease. I want to invite women to stop gaslighting themselves and trust their intuition. Meagan: That just gave me the chills, literally. Eyla: And just because all of your friends birthed with that doctor or that midwife and they have great Yelp reviews, it does not mean that it works for you. There is nothing wrong with you if you switch providers four times in your pregnancy until you find the right one. People spend more time shopping around for cars and test-driving cars than they do the person who is going to hold space for their birth. Meagan: Yes. Eyla: It's kind of wild, right? So I really want to invite women to do that. Spend more time noticing how your body feels when you are in certain environments and with certain people who are going to be there for your birth. It might be the most amazing doula that everyone loves and you meet her and you're like, “I am not vibing. Is there something wrong with me that I am not vibing with the best doula that everyone recommends?” No. You just don't vibe and that's fine. Meagan: Yes. Eyla: You might vibe with the doula who's only done one birth and doesn't have any reviews, but you just feel really safe with her. That's where you need to walk toward. So yeah. The birth plan is helpful only because it's an exercise in learning about what goes down at birth, but it's not because it's going to keep you safe from the unknowns, right? You need to feel safe with your team. Meagan: Absolutely. Eyla: The birth plan is not a contract. Just because you have one does not mean that everyone has to abide by the contract. It's just an opportunity for you and your partner to be like, “Oh, what's PKU? What's an epidural? What's Pitocin?” That's where you can learn about this process. But I would just invite everyone to shop around with who's going to be at your birth. Do not caretake like, “Oh, my mom really wants to be there.” It's like, “That's okay that she wants to be there, but if you have a really charged relationship with your mother and it would actually stress you out for her to be there because she's an anxious woman, she's not supposed to be there because the woman birthing is supposed to surrender and how can we surrender to birth when we are taking care of everyone's feelings?Meagan: Yes. I mean, I can relate to that so much. My mom, to this day, I don't know if she will ever forgive me. Seriously, she holds this grudge against me that I didn't love her unconditionally enough to invite her into that space, but right there just goes to show right? My mom, I love her. I love my mom. I do. She's not the person I want in my birth space. I would have been that person. I would have been that person worrying about what she would have been thinking and her worries along the way and hosting my mom. So yeah. Sometimes those things are really, really hard. Those choices are really hard to make, but creating that birth space is going to be so powerful and like you said, you can change many times. You can change. You can change during your labor. If someone comes in and they are not resonating with you and you are not feeling it and you are feeling contention, excuse them from the birth space. Ask your husband or your partner or your doula, or someone else to play the bad guy and let them go. That is okay. When I went in to go get my op reports for my second, he looked at me, laughed, and he said, “Good luck. No one's going to want you out there.” Right there. Why did I stay with a provider that treated me that way? Why didn't I follow my heart? Why didn't I follow that heart? I was feeling good about my provider with my third. I was, but something didn't feel right. I couldn't put a pointer on it, but it was. It was more like, “I think my provider is going to be restrictive in the end,” and he would have. He would have been restrictive in the end. Eyla: Wow, yeah. Isn't it amazing? That's what the classic narcissist says when you try to leave them. It's like, “Good luck out there. No one else is going to want you.” It's literally what a narcissist says to their– I don't want to say victim because no one is a victim. No one is a victim. Everyone has a choice. Even in a narcissistic relationship, the one who is “being abused” is choosing to be there. They are the ones who are choosing not to leave. It's interesting that we get into these dynamics with our medical providers. It's not just OBs. It's midwives as well. I want everyone to get very clear on the reality that just because you are working with a midwife does not mean that it's not going to be a highly controlled, potentially conventional relationship and birth. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there are providers out there that are going to be right for you and not right for you. I do too. I encourage you to follow your heart. Like you said, check into it. If you're in that waiting room and your heart is racing and you're feeling anxious, I don't know. You've got to tune into it. This is where I speak a lot about intuition and when Julie was with me, I swear, we preach intuition. It is hard sometimes to really dive in and figure that out, but it's important. It's really important. It's going to tell you something. It's going to tell you something. Same thing with processing birth. Tune into what's hanging there. What is hanging there and what are you talking about? For some, that's probably something. That's probably something that's triggering you. Eyla: Of course. Of course. Yeah. This is also something that I do. I lead doula training and mentorships. This is a lot of what we talk about in this mentorship is how to hold that space. It's not necessarily– some of the women that do this training, it's not even to become a birth doula, it's just learning how to hold space for a woman and offer reflection when they are going through their process or if they want to process something postpartum. In this training, I also require that the trainees do their own amount of share of processing because we can't really be holding space for a woman unless we are also in a self-actualization process. So yeah. It's just learning to tune into the body and again, not gaslight yourself, right? Meagan: Yeah. I love that. Oh, so many things. You have so many amazing things. Tell everybody where– let's see. We've talked about the course and your training. Tell everybody where they can find you and find more information about everything that you offer. Eyla: Yeah, so my website is obviously the best place to get in touch with me. It's eylacuenca.com. There's also uncoveringbirth.com and that's where you could go through the master class even if you're not pregnant, if you're a practitioner of any kind, you're a chiropractor, or a friend of yours is giving birth and you just want to understand the arc of birth. How were we birthing? How have we arrived here? I really feel that everyone should understand their own birth even if they don't plan to have kids. Understand how you came in because the way that we are born and what we experienced in our mother's womb when she was pregnant with us influences and creates the blueprint for our life. So a lot of unanswered questions that you might have about your health, about your mental/spiritual state, those are things that you can uncover in understanding birth more clearly. I also have an Instagram, so I do a lot of interaction there. I like to answer questions on Instagram. I do a lot of health advocacy on Instagram. I provide different types of forms for people who are going into hospital settings and want to make sure that they can keep their placenta, for example, and want to understand their rights to the placenta. So yeah. I offer a lot of those resources through Instagram and through my website. Meagan: I love it. Awesome and we'll make sure to have all of your information in the show notes in case you don't know how to spell Eyla Cuenca. Don't worry. It's right down there and it is not Ayla, it's Eyla if you're looking on Instagram as well. So thank you so much Eyla. It's been a pleasure. You are amazing. I can just feel, I can feel the passion coming through this Zoom. I really can. I feel like I need to come be your friend.Eyla: Please, please. Meagan: You are amazing and I'm so grateful for you and I know so many people will take so many nuggets out of this episode and they are going to apply it in their journey. Eyla: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode 213 Jackie's Precipitous VBA2C

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2022 57:38

Jackie's first birth was a beautiful, well-informed, planned gentle Cesarean due to breech presentation. After putting everything in place for a VBAC, Jackie was ready for it all. However, after pushing for hours on end with limited support due to the newness of COVID, Jackie consented to another C-section. Surgery didn't go as smoothly this time around, and Jackie did NOT want to be in that situation ever again. With her third, Jackie found incredible, VBA2C-supportive midwives who validated every birth desire she had. Since her first TOLAC was 48 hours, she knew a 2-hour drive to the hospital was no big deal. Until…labor came fast and furious. Did she make it to the hospital? Additional linksBebo Mia's Webinar Tara's WebsiteThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Welcome, welcome. This is Meagan Heaton with The VBAC Link and we have a cohost today. I am so excited to start welcoming in some cohosts. These are actually our VBAC doulas and birth workers. Welcome, Tara. Thank you so much for being with us. Tara: Thank you. It's awesome to be here. Meagan: It's super fun. It's been something I've wanted to do for a long time and I thought it would be fun. It just adds some different vibes to the podcast. You guys are all over the world too so it's fun to hear your stories and your tidbits and what you see. At the end, we are going to let her share some information as well. Review of the WeekWithout further ado, we always have a review and just a reminder, if you guys have not left a review, we always love them and welcome them. You can leave them on Apple Podcasts. You can shoot us an email. You can go to Facebook and write one there. You can even Google The VBAC Link and leave us a review there. Wherever it may be, where you are comfortable, drop us a review. It may be read next on the podcast. Okay Tara, if you wouldn't mind reading someone's amazing review. Tara: Yeah, I got it. This is from Paige who reviewed The VBAC Course. Meagan: Oh yes. So not the podcast but the course. Tara: She says, “This course is as comprehensive and user-friendly as it gets. The workbook is so beautiful and the information is so easy to find. I used the data pages more than once when interviewing providers and discussing hospital policies in preparing for my VBAC after two Cesareans. I felt so empowered and confident in setting myself up for a positive birth experience with these tools in hand.”So that's from Paige. Meagan: I love it. Thank you, Paige. Seriously, we have done a lot on this VBAC course. It's going to be continuing to update because birth updates all of the time. It is always updating. It is always changing, but for our VBAC students, I don't know if anybody is out there and has taken our course, I want you to know that as information comes in and as the course updates, you're always getting access to these updates. So excited, Paige. Thank you so much. Yeah, if you're interested in learning more and upping your VBAC game, then we have courses for both parents and birth workers who are wanting to find more information about VBAC and how to support VBAC. Tara, she's one of them. She's one of our VBAC doulas. We love to spotlight them and we are going to have them on the podcasts. We love our birth workers. We talk about how VBAC is something that is all over the world. I personally, as Meagan Heaton, cannot change the VBAC world alone. It's physically impossible, right? So between all of us birth workers out there and all of us parents out there learning about our options and advocating for ourselves and advocating for clients, it's going to help change the VBAC world immensely. So definitely check out the course if you are interested at thevbaclink.com. Jackie's StoryMeagan: Okay, Ms. Jackie. You are holding a brand-new baby. Tara: So cute. Meagan: Tara and I got to see this little squish when we started. Oh, I love it. It is perfect. You are fresh out of your VBAC after two C-sections. So excited. We know, we talked about it a little bit before we started. We know so many people are wanting stories about VBAC after multiple Cesareans and specifically two. So, Jackie, we would love to turn the time over to you to share this beautiful baby's story. Jackie: So I guess where you always want to start is why you had your first C-section. Meagan: Yep. Jackie: With my first baby, we lived in a rural area. Walmart in Canada was closer than Walmart in the States for us. Very rural. The closest hospital was about an hour and fifteen minutes away from us. There were three hospitals I could choose from. One was an hour fifteen, one was an hour thirty, and one was an hour twenty or something like that.So I did my research on all of the hospitals. I found the hospital with the lowest C-section rate because I was not going to have a C-section. I did all of my research, found myself awesome midwives who were going to work with me, and then I went in for a scan around 34 weeks to find out that my daughter was breech. Nobody in the rural community that we lived in or any of those hospitals would deliver a breech baby. I could travel three hours and deliver a breech baby vaginally, but I opted for the C-section. I figured it was the safest bet for where we were at. I cried a lot about that. My midwife was amazing. She comforted me because all I had heard was from my friends who had C-sections recently and how terrible their C-setions were. One of them got knocked out with general anesthesia and couldn't see her baby for six hours. Another one told me at the hospital she went to, she didn't get knocked out, but they told her she couldn't go see her baby in recovery until after she could move her legs after the C-section. Meagan: Whoa. Jackie: Yeah. I was crying my eyes out because I was like, “I'm not going to be able to see my baby at all.” I'm telling the midwife this and she goes, “No. That will not happen to you at this hospital at all. Those other two hospitals, I don't know what they are doing, but we will not allow that. Your baby will be checked over for four seconds right next to your head by the pediatrician and then she'll be with you. I will be in the operating room with you even though I don't need to be there.” I loved this midwife. She is an amazing woman. I absolutely loved her. I tried giving this third baby her name as a middle name and my husband was kind of against that. Meagan: Oh, that is so sweet of you. She must have impacted you a lot then. Jackie: She was amazing. I remember coming into the OR. They were getting me all prepped and laying me on the table. She comes in. She pulls down her mask and goes, “You can't tell who I am underneath the mask right now, but I'm here with you. I will stay with you the whole time.” I absolutely loved her. Tara: That's the best thing anyone can do is just be present like that. How many weeks were you, Jackie, when you had your C-section?Jackie: I had a scheduled C-section at 39 weeks. They wanted to make it a little bit later than that, but I wanted my child to be born on the 22nd, so I chose the 22nd. I said if I had to have a C-section, I wanted my baby born on the 22nd. My birthday is the 22nd. My husband and I got married on the 22nd and then his birthday is 2/11 which multiplies to 22. Tara: That was special. Jackie: I was going to have my baby on the 22nd. They were like, “All right. Well, we would like it to be closer to 40 weeks.” I go, “It's 39 weeks. It will be fine.” Tara: The silver lining of choosing the date is at least you can have a little bit of control over that, right?Jackie: Yes. Having a planned C-section I guess, made it easy. We were able to drive down the night before the C-section. Again, we were driving an hour and a half for this and they wanted us there at 6:00 a.m. So we drove down the night before. It went so smoothly. Everything that I wanted, I researched everything I could for a gentle Cesarean. I had a gentle Cesarean and they had the leads for the monitors on my back. They put the IV where I wanted it. They helped me take off my gown and put the baby right onto my chest as soon as the pediatrician was done after two minutes with her. It was a perfectly done C-section. Everything I wanted went well. Baby didn't leave my chest until my husband, I think, probably a couple of hours after I had her goes, “Do you think I could hold her now?” I was like, “I guess so.” They were great. They postponed any weights. They postponed wiping her down. She still had blood all over her. It was the perfect C-section if you had to have a C-section. With my second, it was the time of COVID. She was born in May of 2020, so a beautiful COVID baby. Her due date was the day after my first daughter's due date, so they are exactly two years apart. We planned it out perfectly with the dates so I had the two years that my midwives told me I had to have to be able to have my VBAC. Because of COVID, they started doing only phone appointments and if I went in, I always made sure to schedule my favorite midwife because I absolutely loved her. She'd be measuring me. She'd be like, “You're measuring a week ahead. You're measuring a week and a half ahead, no big deal.” She didn't have any concerns with that. At my 39-week appointment, I had it with the head midwife of the department and she got very concerned that I was going to be having a VBAC and my fundal height was measuring larger, like a week and a half, two weeks ahead at that point. She sent me for a growth scan that I had to have immediately. So I scheduled it. I think it was three days after that appointment. I scheduled it with the ultrasound people. I think I was 40 weeks exactly that day. I went in to the scan and I said, “Don't tell me it's breech,” because I had already been fearful that this would be a breech baby again. He said, “Nope, you are not breech, but you are measuring about 10 pounds for this baby.” I was like, “You've got to be kidding me.” I was freaking out because I knew they'd probably say that I couldn't have my VBAC because I was having this big baby and as a tiny, rural hospital without anesthesia on staff, they can't handle that sort of thing. He tried comforting me, telling me, “Don't worry. These scans can be two pounds over or under. You're probably having an 8-pound baby. Don't worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” When my midwife got the results, the next day I was 40+1 and she said, “Nope. Your baby is measuring 10 pounds. We can't have you do that here. If you want, you can come in for a C-section today.” I said, “Well, I don't want to have a C-section.” I already had talked to the larger hospital that I would have to go to if I were to go. At the rural hospital, they were going to allow me to go 10 days past my due date and if I was going to be pregnant for more than 10 days past my due date, I had to go to this larger hospital. Meagan: Oh man. Jackie: So I had already had my phone interview with the MFM at the larger hospital. We discussed if I needed to have an induction because I was past the date by more than 10 days and they were all on board with that. They understood that it was going to be a VBAC. They were fine with everything. Actually, the night before, I started having contractions that I told the person in the interview about. I said, “Well, last night, I had contractions. This morning, they've gone away, but hopefully, I have this baby and I don't need to come to see you guys.”Tara: Jackie, can I ask you, what was the birth weight of your first baby? Jackie: 7 pounds, 2 ounces. Tara: Okay, so that would be a big difference. Jackie: I did have gestational diabetes with the first one. Meagan: That's still a small baby. Jackie: Yes, but I monitored my sugars religiously with her because if I did not have good sugar numbers, I would risk out of the midwives and have to be with the OBs, so I made sure that every little thing that went inside of me was the right amount of sugar and the right amount of everything, so I maintained my gestational diabetes with her amazingly. The second one, I did not get classified with gestational diabetes, but again, it was COVID and I was baking every single day with my two-year-old to keep her busy and eating every single new cookie we discovered and new bread and everything we were making because that's what you have to do when you're stuck in quarantine, I guess. Tara: Yeah, COVID brought on the baking for a lot of us. Jackie: Yeah, and most likely with gestational diabetes, it probably wasn't the best idea. Even though I had tested negative for it, I should have maintained those sugars better, I guess. The midwife called back and told me, “It is a 10-pound baby. It's not going to happen. You're going to have to go to this other hospital or have a C-section with us.” They contacted the other hospital. The other hospital called me back and said, “Hey, you can come in for an induction tonight. When can you be here?” I said, “Well, we've got to pack up, and then we can drive down there.” This hospital is about 3 hours away from us. I said, “Oh, it's going to take me 3 hours.” “Yeah, we will definitely have a bed for you in 3 hours. Come on down now.” So my husband and I drove down as I'm having contractions again all the way down there as he was hitting every single railroad track there was because that's what you do in a rural community. There are lots of railroad tracks. We get down there and they were going to check me, but then there was somebody actually having a baby, so the OB that was there stepped out and went and delivered that baby then came back in. They checked me and I think I was at 5 centimeters or something like that. I told them that I didn't sleep the night before because I was having little contractions and I was too excited to sleep. I asked for something just basically to let me get some rest. They gave me something in an IV. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was a lovely concoction of something and I went into their birth pool/tub thing and just floated around all night long with whatever they gave me. My husband kept telling me that I kept falling asleep and snoring in the pool while he was there. He kept having to be like, “All right, let's make sure she doesn't drown now.”Tara: Yeah. I'm glad he was with you. Jackie: But I got some rest and that was nice. In the morning, they had me come out because they needed to do rounds or whatever and the new OB was going to check me. They checked me and I was at 8 centimeters. Tara: Wow. Jackie: I was basically told– also, they had been giving me Pitocin– I think it was at 2 is what they had told me– the whole night to get contractions going even though I already had contractions going. It was at 8:00 in the morning and they told me basically, “This baby is going to be a 10-pound baby. We are going to need to use forceps to get this baby out. You should probably think about getting an epidural now.”I thought, “Well, I'm at an 8 already and they always say to wait until you get to 6 centimeters. 8 sounds good. I'll get the epidural,” because the idea of giant forceps did not impress me very much. It sounded very painful, so I said, “Sure. We'll take the epidural.” I got some sleep from the epidural too which was nice, but then they checked me a few hours later and I think I was at a 9. A few hours later, still at a 9. At one point, the doctor– it must have been close to 6:00– came in and said, “Hey. You're still at a 9. We're going to do a C-section.” My husband is not very good physically with labor and birth and all of that stuff, but he is amazing at advocating for me and he knew what I wanted. He knew I wanted this VBAC. He talked to the doctor and pulled him aside and said, “No. She wants this VBAC. You obviously want to go home. You go home. We will wait three or four hours and we will reassess the new doctor coming in.” He has listened to The VBAC Link with me. He has listened to other podcasts with me and he knows. Meagan: Oh, I love that. That's amazing. Tara: That is amazing. Jackie: But he was like, “We'll see who else comes in. We will reassess then. She really wants this, so you can leave. Nothing is wrong with the baby. Nothing is wrong with her.” They were like, “No. Nothing's wrong.” So that doctor went home for the night. A new doctor came in. Three hours later when we gave him a timeline, he said, “Hey. You're still at a 9. We're going to do a C-section now.” My husband turned to me and said, “We took the time and we were still there.” In the meantime, between that three hours, I was looking up all of the different things that I could do. The flying cowgirl–Meagan: I was going to say, was there anybody offering any suggestions or saying, “Okay. This is why we think you are at a 9,” or “Okay, the front of your cervix is thicker than the back.” Was there any of that communication or was it just like, “Oh, you're still there?”Jackie: I'm blaming COVID still because nobody was coming into the room at all. Nobody would come into the room because it was the beginning of COVID, nobody knows with COVID what was going on. I had no nurses coming in. A nurse would come in every once in a while to make sure the monitor was on my stomach correctly if it lost, but other than that, nope. Nobody was coming in. It was basically me on Google figuring out what I could do. I asked for a peanut ball. I had the peanut ball, going back and forth on the peanut ball. I moved the bed around at one point. I called her in. I said, “I can feel my legs. Can I just get up and walk?” She was like, “No. You can't. You have an epidural.”Tara: Jackie, do you know how high the baby was when you were at 9 for a while?Jackie: Zero. Tara: Oh, so it was pretty well engaged. Jackie: Yeah. So again, I blame everything on COVID. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself not that it was the hospital or anything. I'm just going to say that it was COVID. I told the MFM I had this time about that and he goes, “Yeah. I think they just didn't wait. I blame COVID too.” I was like, “Thanks, dude.” Meagan: Yeah. You're like, “Thanks for validating me.”Jackie: Yes. Thank you for that one. So I ended up having a C-section with that one which, an unplanned C-section was not the best. The epidural I had was causing problems. At one point, it pulled out while I was in labor still. I didn't realize and I thought I was just being a wimp and being like, “Oh, I could feel this through my epidural.” They're like, “Oh, no. You pulled it out.” When I went into the OR, I told the guy, I was like, “I can feel my legs. I can feel everything. I could stand up right now if you want.” He was like, “No, you're fine. I'll just put more into this epidural. You'll be fine.” I was like, “I can feel everything.” I was arguing with him that my epidural wasn't working. He told me, “Fine. I'll put you under general anesthesia then.” I said, “No.” I was like, “No. You will not. I am fine. My baby is fine. I don't want to do this. Get me out of this OR. Get my husband. Get me out of here. I am not having a C-section if this is the way it's going to be.”I started yelling at him and he told me that I needed to calm down, that it was not a big deal, and just was the absolute opposite of the anesthesiologist that I had in my first birth who was doing everything she could do to make me feel great. This one was just arguing with me. So he told me if I keep up whatever I was doing and don't calm down, then he was just going to put me under general anesthesia. So I just yelled at him I said, “Fine. Cut me open now then. I really don't care. You're not putting me under. Just cut me open. I don't care if I can feel it.” So they tested it out and I couldn't feel it as much as I thought I was going to be able to feel it, but I could still feel it much more than I did in my spinal for my first one. They did the C-section. My husband was there and I got pain between my shoulder blades from the epidural and I couldn't lie down. He was telling me that he was going to have to strap me down because I was going to grab at my belly and I have to be strapped down for this. I was like, “My first C-section, I was not strapped down. They didn't even argue with me that it was fine.” He goes, “No. C-sections you have to be strapped down for.” So then when I started complaining about my back hurting and I couldn't lay down, he unstrapped my arms, that way he could turn me to my side and make it so my back wouldn't hurt. They took the baby out and instead of the baby coming straight to me, they took the baby and wiped her all down. They measured her. They did all of that stuff. I had my husband go over onto that side, which, he is really squeamish so he was not happy about being on the other side of the curtain. Tara: I'm waiting for the drumroll of the birth weight. Jackie: She was 9 pounds, 15 ounces. Tara: Oh, so they were pretty close. Jackie: Yeah, yeah. They were an ounce off. She was a giant baby. She was in the 99th percentile in head, height, and weight, and she has maintained that 99th percentile in the two years of her life. She got down to the 95th percentile at her 2-year appointment, but yeah. She's just a big kid. Meagan: Hey, though. We had Katrina, one of our doulas, talk about a VBAC client. It was 11 pounds, something. Jackie: Wow. Meagan: So 9 pounds is pretty small compared to that. Tara: It's not all about the size. Meagan: It's not all about the size, yeah. Jackie: Yep. 9 pounds, 15 ounces, and I still think that I would have been able to have the baby just fine. Tara: Yeah, you got most of the way there. I mean, you're kind of one of those people that did both. Meagan: Yeah. You did both. Yeah. That's hard. Jackie: At my six-week appointment with my midwives, I came in and talked to them. I said, “So, when can I have a VBAC after two Cesareans?” Six weeks later, I'm already asking them. I asked the OB while I was at the large hospital if they did VBAC after two Cesareans and they said, “Yep. You can come down for that if you have another kid.” When I was back at my little rural hospital, the OB there– there was a new OB and she said, “Oh yeah. I don't see why you couldn't have one. That would be fine. Just don't have a big baby this time.” My midwife looked it up and she found online that they don't have a policy against a VBAC after two Cesareans either, so she said, “Oh yeah. You can definitely do this.” Tara: Wow. Meagan: That's so hard. That's a lot of pressure. “Don't have a big baby this time.” Jackie: Yep. Just don't have a big baby this time. Meagan: Yeah, kind of hard to totally control. I mean, you can obviously do your best. Jackie: So when we got pregnant with our third, I went and met with them, and we discussed VBAC after two Cesareans. They told me two years ago that it was still in the plan. My midwife says, “Well, let me talk to the head OB person at this small hospital.” There are three midwives. I believe there are two or three OBs. She talked to the OB and the OB said, “No. You had a 10-pound baby last time. We will not allow you to have a VBAC after two Cesareans.” I said, “Okay. Well, when do I transfer over to the big hospital then? It's a longer drive. I don't really want to make that drive for my appointments. Can I do my appointments with you guys and then I'll transfer over later?” They said, “That's fine. Stay with us as long as you need to and then we'll figure this out.” I said, “Okay.” In the meantime, they checked to see if I had gestational diabetes because after having gestational diabetes and then having a large baby, they assumed that I'm going to have it again. I failed the one-hour and then passed the three-hour. I passed the one-hour at 18 weeks at this one, and then I did it again at 28 weeks and I failed the one-hour, and then I had to do it again for the three-hour. According to the numbers in Vermont, I would have failed by one point and been diagnosed with gestational diabetes. I might add at the time, we also moved states. At 28 weeks, we moved from New Hampshire to New York. Again, a nice rural community in the middle of nowhere. So at 28 weeks, I had them do the test, but I also had them prescribe the stuff for gestational diabetes so that way I could monitor my sugars and make sure that I don't have a giant baby. While we were in New Hampshire, I started researching and asking on The VBAC Link Community Facebook group, asking mom groups in the area where we are in New York where I could have a VBAC after two Cesareans. I did all of my research on the different cities that were close to us. I say close because both of them were about two hours away from us to find out where I could have this. Somebody recommended that I have a home birth. I was like, “Sure. I would love that idea because I wouldn't have to go anywhere. It sounds like a great idea,” but in New York state, if you are having a VBAC after two Cesareans, you have to have it in a hospital. You can't have it in a birth center. You can't have it at home. That was kind of a bummer because I found a midwife local to us who does them in Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania would allow it, but New York doesn't. I found a hospital with midwives in Rochester, New York and I talked to them. They had a Facebook Live Meet Your Midwife one day. I talked to them and I asked them some questions. I said, “Could I have a VBAC after two Cesareans?” They said, “Well, why do you need to specify that it's after two Cesareans?” I said, “A lot of places won't allow you to do it after two Cesareans.” They were like, “No. It's just a VBAC.” They didn't seem to have a problem with that. I said, “Well, what if I have a large baby because my last one was 10 pounds? Could I still have my VBAC?” They were like, “10 pounds really isn't that big.” I was like, “Okay. I'm liking these answers.”Tara: That's incredible. Jackie: I'm liking these answers so far. Meagan: You're like, “I'm not going to disagree with you.” Jackie: Yep, and then I asked, “What if I have gestational diabetes because I know some places when you have gestational diabetes, you risk out of being able to have the midwives. You end up with OBs.” They said, “Why would you have to have midwives if you have gestational diabetes?” Everything that I was told before, they were just like, that doesn't make any sense. Tara: Wow. Meagan: They were pushing back on you. They were like, “Hey, listen.” Tara: They were like, “We don't think that this is a problem.” Meagan: We have VBAC statistics for you. Jackie: Yeah, so after that Facebook Live event or something, after that, I was like, “All right. I think I have found where I want to go.” Then we went to see my mother-in-law and we get a text from our friend saying, “Hey, you guys were at our party this past weekend and somebody at the party just tested positive for COVID.” So we took our tests right there at our mother-in-law's house and we tested positive for COVID.Tara: Oh no. Jackie: So my first appointment got to be a virtual appointment because of COVID. We all tested positive. Meagan: Bummer. Jackie: It was a bummer having to quarantine and do all of that fun stuff. So a couple of weeks later, after I'm out of the COVID quarantine, I got to actually go up and meet my midwives. A large midwife place with a waiting room that actually people are in, it was a lot different than my tiny little hospital in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. I met with the midwives there. I explained to them that according to the numbers that my midwives pulled for the gestational diabetes screen that I have gestational diabetes. I read them the numbers that I had from my chart. They looked at me and said, “No. That's not gestational diabetes. Our cutoff is 185, not 180 here in New York.” So now I don't have gestational diabetes anymore and I told them that I would like to keep my monitor going, just to continue monitoring because I didn't want to have a giant baby again. They were okay with that and they just took it off of my chart. I drove two hours every two weeks, then every one week to all of those appointments all the way up to Rochester to meet with these midwives. Anytime I went in with a concern, they basically told me, “Nope, that's fine. You can have your VBAC.” I also hired a doula in the area too because it was recommended by my favorite midwife up in Vermont that if I'm going to be somewhere new with people I don't know, I should have a doula who could help support me. I agreed with that, so we got ourselves a doula. Now we are talking about the lovely birth story. My doula kept contacting me and I kept telling her, “Nope, I'm going to go late. I'm not going to go to 40 weeks. It will be more than 40 weeks. I will have this baby inside of me forever. This pregnancy is so easy compared to my other two. I'm not in pain. I could be pregnant for 42 weeks and not even care, but I definitely can't have my baby this week.” She's like, “Why?” I said, “Well, my husband is a teacher. It's the first day of school.” It was Labor Day weekend, so his first day of school was the day after Labor Day and my oldest is starting preschool at a new preschool. I don't want to ruin this week for them. It's their first week back to school and I can't have my baby this week. Maybe next weekend I'll have the baby. It'll work out then.” My doula was like, “Okay, whatever you say. This baby can come whenever they want, but sure. You can go late. Whatever.” My kid and my husband have their first day of school. Everything goes great. That night, I put my kids to bed and I started having little contractions like I did with my second. I was like, “Well, it's probably just going to keep me awake all night.” I had heard many a birth story on here that said to take some Benadryl, take some Tylenol and try to sleep through it. That's what I did. I took some Benadryl. I took some Tylenol and I slept through it. I'd wake up every once in a while. Around midnight, I was like, “Maybe I should start timing these and figure out what's going on.” They were coming 5-10 minutes apart or something like that. They weren't consistent. I could sleep through a lot of it, so I just said, “All right. I'll take some more Benadryl and Tylenol and just keep sleeping.” My two-year-old crawled into bed with me and while having contractions, trying to sleep with contractions and a two-year-old was not very fun. I snuck out of the room and slept on the couch. I was timing the contractions there. My two-year-old started crying, looking for me and asking where I was, so I went back upstairs and snuggled her in her bed. The contractions were still happening. I was like, “This is strange. Last time, basically when I woke up, they went away.”But whatever. They weren't very painful and I could sleep through them so I didn't think anything was happening. My husband gets up for his second day of school. He's in the shower and I said, “Hey, don't get too excited to be at school. Don't get too excited about this.” I go, “I've been having contractions. They're probably going to fizzle out when the sun comes up. Don't worry about it, but maybe have some plans together for the afternoon because I'll probably call you and say ‘Hey, we need to go to the hospital.'”He said, “Oh, you think you're going to have the baby?” I said, “I don't know, but just have some plans just in case.” I get my four-year-old dressed and send my husband and her to school. I bring my two-year-old out to our makeshift living area in the barn. I climbed the stairs to the barn. I'm making us breakfast and all of a sudden, my contractions went from, “Oh, this is nothing. I can sleep through it,” to “Maybe I should have not sent them to school. This is not feeling right.” I'm having contractions now a lot closer together. They are a lot more painful, and I'm trying to breathe through them, and my two-year-old is copying me and making fun of me. Tara: Does your doula know yet? Jackie: I sent her a text at this point. I said, “Hey, just letting you know.” She's like, “All right.” I go, “It's probably nothing.” Again, I don't think anything is going to happen. I was in labor for 48 hours with the other one. Nothing is going to happen anytime soon. I didn't want to worry her. I did send a text to my mother-in-law too because she lives about 45 minutes away. I said, “Hey, if you get dressed and ready for the day, do you think you could come on over to the house instead of going to work today? Would that be okay?” She was like, “Yeah. That would be fine. I'll be over after my shower.” I said, “Okay.” They picked up a lot more. My doula texted me and she said, “Maybe you should hop in the shower until your husband gets back,” because I hadn't been able to get a hold of him. His school had been in the news because they said, “No cell phones at all for kids,” so he was making sure that his cell phone was not even seen in the school building, so I can't get a hold of him even though I told him to keep an eye out for me.I'm trying to text him. My doula says to hop in the shower. I was like, “Yeah, you're right. I'll probably hop in the shower and this will all go away.” So I bring my two-year-old inside. On the way inside, we have our crew who is working on the house is all there and they volunteered the day before to take me to the hospital if I needed it, so I'm trying to not show them that I'm in labor at all. I'm hiding my facial expressions like, “This is no big deal. Construction crew, you're fine to stay here.” I bring my two-year-old and set her in front of the TV and hop into the shower. I tried calling my husband's school and I realized that I can't get through the automated messaging system to find out how to get ahold of my husband at his new school before another contraction comes. So I texted my mother–in–law and I said, “You need to call him. I can't do this and he's not answering.” She asked what the telephone number is and I'm like, “I don't know. Google it.” I could not even think through these contractions. All of a sudden—Tara: It was getting serious. Meagan: Stop talking to me. Jackie: They were awful. I did not have contractions like this with my second and again, I dilated to 8 centimeters. I was just like, “I've got to get in the shower.” I get in the shower and I'm sitting there. I sat there until the water ran out of hot water and I plugged the tub before that because I was like, “Well, maybe sitting in a tub would be nice too.” So when the water ran out of hot water, I am now laying in the tub and I am screaming at the top of my lungs. I'm just thinking about the work crew who was on the other side of this wall in our kitchen working on making our kitchen and I'm just screaming at the top of my lungs. My two-year-old keeps walking in asking for something and I'm just yelling at her to get out. She's like, “Mom, mom, mom, mom I hurt my nose,” and I'm like, “I don't care. Get out of here,” just screaming. It was just so painful. All of a sudden, my husband walks in and he goes, “Uh-oh, what's going on?” And I'm like, “I'm having a baby.” Obviously, you can hear me screaming. He was like, “Well, the entire crew was standing outside in a huddle like, ‘What should we do?'” I'm yelling orders at him now and I'm like, “You need to get the bag.” He's like, “Okay. I've got the bag.” I was like, “You need to get my dress.” He comes down with– I don't remember what dress he came down with. I was like, “No. There is a black dress in the closet. Go get me my black dress. I'm not going to be able to put clothes on. Go get that.” He goes up and gets me the dress. He comes in and he goes, “My mom's here, so we don't need to take the girls with us.” I was like, “Thank god,” because I was going to leave the girls with the workers. I wasn't going to care right then. The workers can watch our children. I was done. Slowly, I get out. I tell him, “Yes. Put the dress on me,” because there was no way I was going to be able to dress myself. I tell him to grab my shoes because, for my first two children, I went home barefoot because I did not have my shoes. This one, I wanted to make sure I had my shoes so I had him grab my shoes. Tara: Good tip to put out there. Jackie: Yeah, I went home barefoot for a third time too, so I'll explain that afterward. I get into his truck and I can't sit down. I said, “Get a towel to put under me just in case my water breaks.” I'm just screaming and obscenities are coming out of my mouth. I feel terrible because my kids are looking at me like, “What the heck is going on?” They only know about Cesareans because that's all I've had. Those are the pictures that I have shown them. So I was basically standing up in the front seat of his truck just standing there screaming, “Drive!” We live on dirt roads, so the entire time, I'm cursing the dirt roads because it's all bumpy. Tara: And you had a two-hour drive to the hospital, is that right? Jackie: Yes. We had a two-hour drive to the hospital, but I am certain that I'm going to make it because my last labor was so long. There was no way that we were not going to make it. We were driving two hours. So we're driving and our little town is having its bridge work done, so we have one red light now. And of course, we hit that one red light. Tara: Figures.Jackie: I'm now cursing at the red light and my husband is like, “Really?” He's just laughing inside himself because it's like, this is what's happening. Exactly. We have one red light and this is what we're doing. We're hitting the red light. I keep screaming obscenities at it. Tara: This is your moment to blow that red light, right? Jackie: Yeah. If you could see the other side of the bridge and didn't know if people were coming across, or knew people were coming, I probably would have told him to do so. Tara: You probably don't need a head-on collision at that point. Jackie: In our mommy group that I am in on Facebook or the due date group or whatever, the day before I think it was, there was some girl who was like, “I almost had a car birth,” and I was like, “Well, I'd take a car birth over a Cesarean any day.” And I'm thinking to myself, “Did I just wish this upon myself? Am I going to have this baby in this car?”We've got two hours to drive. All of the little hospitals around us don't do VBACs, not even VBACs after Cesareans. They don't do VBACs at all, so any chance in my head that I'm going to get a VBAC is, “I have to drive two hours. I have to get to this hospital.” My husband's driving. We make it about two exits down the highway and I'm telling him, “You need to call the midwife group.” The midwife group has two different locations and he's calling the one on speakerphone that is the second location. I'm like, “No. That's not the right one. You need to call this one.” So he calls that one. He tells him that we are on our way and they ask, “How often are her contractions coming?” I just yell, “Too close together! We're coming. We're not going to stop this.” I had him call my doula. He was talking to my doula and she says, “Is that her in the background?” He goes, “Yeah, that's her.” She goes, “Stop the car right now. Call 911. Get an ambulance.” I'm like, “No. We don't need an ambulance. Just keep driving. You're going to slow us down. Just get there.” I'll add that he was using Google to get there because he hadn't been to any of my appointments and he's never been to this city really at all. Meagan: Oh gosh. Jackie: So he's following Google and the way Google takes you is back roads through Amish country because we live in an Amish country. I'm like, “No. Get back on the highway. I don't care if it's two minutes longer. You're driving on the highway. I am not going through Amish country and getting stopped by a buggy or getting stopped by a train. Stay on the highway.” We're two exits down and he's like, “Okay, well the doula said to call an ambulance. I'm calling an ambulance.” I'm like, “Okay. Call the ambulance. You're overreacting, but whatever,” as I'm screaming. Tara: You are a multi-tasking queen, Jackie. Meagan: Uh-huh. Jackie: Behind us, a trooper pulls up and my husband tells me, “Oh look, the ambulance is coming.” I'm like, “That's not the ambulance. That's a trooper. He's not going to be able to help us with anything.” The trooper comes over–Meagan: Escort you. Jackie: He goes, “The ambulance will be here in a second. They're right behind me.” The ambulance pulls up and I'm still standing in the front of the truck. No seatbelt, nothing. I can't even kneel down or sit down in this truck. I'm just standing and screaming. The guy from the ambulance comes in and says, “Okay, I'm going to need you to get on the stretcher.” I said, “I can't move.” I'm yelling at him. He goes, “Childbirth isn't that bad.” Meagan: Ohh. Jackie: I looked at him and I just screamed again more obscenities. I have my four-year-old and two-year-old watching TV in front of me, so I will not be screaming those obscenities. But I was like, “You're a man. You have no say in this. You have no idea what this is like. You cannot tell me it is not that bad.” He was like, “I've delivered many babies. I've delivered five of my own from my wife.” I am just like, “Yeah. You did not have a baby.” I am yelling at him. He's like, “Well, I need you to get on the stretcher.” Somehow, I managed to get on the stretcher, but I am on the stretcher on my hands and knees again, holding onto the top of it. He tells me, “No. You have to roll over. You have to lay on your back.” I told him, “There's no way I'm going to roll over. There's no way I'm going to lay on my back. I'm good like this.” After arguing with me for a few minutes that it's not safe and that I can't go like that, he finally decides to put this seatbelt or whatever the stretcher has around the back of my legs and wheels me into the ambulance. With him, he's got another guy with him I believe and there's this young girl. The young girl is obviously very new to being an EMT. At one point, I hear him thank her for coming because they needed a female to come I guess, but she had no idea about anything with birth or anything. Tara: Her eyes are wide. Jackie: Yep, yep. I'm yelling at her to squeeze my hips because I'm in so much pain. My husband was squeezing my hips in the truck for me for each contraction. After everything was said and done, my husband told me that if we have a fourth, which before, he told me absolutely not we were never having another kid after three. If we have a fourth, he needs to go to the gym and work on whatever muscles he needs to be able to squeeze hips because he has no muscle there. Tara: That's right. It's hard work, isn't it, Meagan? Meagan: Mhmm. Jackie: I yelled, “This is why I needed a doula. She knows what to do.” Meagan: Yeah. Well, and that's another pro of a doula too is that they can switch off. Jackie: Yes. That's what I was looking forward to. I was going to have this really long labor and they were going to switch off when his arms got tired, her arms would pop in and it would be wonderful. But I'm in the ambulance and I'm yelling at this poor, young girl that she needs to squeeze my hips. The guy is trying to tell her, “You've got to squeeze her hips. That's what she wants.”Then my body decides that it is going to start pushing on its own, but not push out a baby, but push out poop which–Meagan: Mhmm, that comes first sometimes. Jackie: I read that all the things said, “Yeah, if it happens, people will just wipe it up and you'll never even know.” I'm yelling at the girl like, “I apologize that this is happening.” She's looking at the guy like, “What do I do?” He's like, “Just don't worry about it. Just don't worry about it.” With every contraction now, I am now pooping and extremely embarrassed by this and screaming because I am in so much pain. The guy who has delivered so many babies and said childbirth isn't that bad tells me that I need to relax so that he can put an IV in my hand. Meagan: Oh boy. Jackie: I tell him that if he wants me to relax, then he needs to give me some drugs. He tells me that he can't give me any drugs because I'm having a baby and there are no drugs that are safe for a baby. Tara: Oh dear. Jackie: He goes, “Well, if I get this IV in you, at the hospital, they'll be able to give you some drugs.” I said, “Okay.” So I managed to somehow stop squeezing my hand and let him have it. He got the IV in. We pull up to the hospital and they rolled me into the hospital. There were probably about, my husband said he counted 25 people in the room. One of the nurses I talked to later said he counted at least 30 people in the room. It's an ER room because this hospital does not have a maternity ward at all, so they don't deliver babies at all which was a surprise to me especially when I asked for drugs and they told me that they couldn't give me anything. The EMT guy promised me that they would be able to give me drugs. Tara: So that's a good point, Jackie, because if you call an ambulance, they have to take you to the nearest hospital, right? Meagan: Mhmm. Jackie: Yes. Tara: Yeah. So he wasn't able to take you to the one that you had intended to give birth at. Jackie: Right. But I still thought that they would take me to one where I would give birth at. 30 minutes north of this hospital, there was a hospital that I ended up being transferred to after I gave birth that does have a maternity ward. But yep, they brought me to the closest one possible. They had again, no maternity ward. Nobody has delivered babies. Tara: But the entire staff standing by. Jackie: Oh yeah. The entire staff, I'm pretty sure, of this hospital, standing in the room with me. My husband was like, “I had nothing to do during your labor. I walked in.” First of all, he followed Google again and did not end up at the right hospital and then was like, “Oh, wait a second. I know what hospital this is. I'm pretty sure we've passed it before.” He said that he walked in and he had my bag and my birth plan. He hands my birth plan to the nurse and the nurse goes, “We don't have time for that.” He was like, “Okay. I remembered the one thing that I had to remember and they don't even want it.” He goes, “I got in there. They put me behind you,” or at my head, because I'm still on my hands and knees on top of the stretcher right now. He goes, “There were so many people around, I had nothing to do.” He goes, “You had two people who were wiping your forehead for you. You had three people who were holding your hand for you. You had someone who was wiping your butt.” He goes, “Every single person had something to do and I was just standing there looking like an idiot. There were so many people in that room.” I was like, “Yeah, it was a lot different than our second labor where we were the only two people in the room.” So we're in there with all of the people staring at me. There was a sweet woman up by my head who kept telling me wonderfully nice things and if I wasn't in labor, I would probably hug her and tell her that she was a wonderful person, but I was in so much panic yelling at her to just shut her mouth and be quiet and all of these terrible things that I feel so bad about now. At one point, she advises whoever is on the other side of me, I don't know, to maybe shut the blinds to the ER room because it's all glass. So you walk into the ER and what you see was my behind as I'm trying to give birth on the stretcher with 25 people around me. I was very thankful she said they should probably shut all of these blinds so people weren't watching. They have someone come in and they tell me that this is a pediatrician. She has delivered babies before, so it's going to be okay. That's my first hint that they don't have anybody to deliver babies at this hospital, that there is a pediatrician here now and she has delivered babies. It's okay. The pediatrician decides that she needs to check me and in the middle of a contraction, shoves her hand up and I'm just screaming. I'm like, “Get your hand out of me.” I started kicking her which, again, I feel terrible about. I apologized for it after the fact, but I definitely kicked her a couple of times telling her to get away from me. They kept telling me that I had to be on my back to be checked and I told them, “No,” that you can have babies on your knees. “I'm not laying on my back. I can't do that. I can't roll over.” I again involuntarily am pushing so much poop out of myself which, again, no one prepares you for that. Everyone tells you, “Oh no. Don't worry about it. No one is even going to notice.” Everybody knew it was happening. My husband knew it was happening. There was poop in front of me on the stretcher. There was just poop everywhere and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “Nobody told you that this much would happen.” At some point, they told me that I am pushing out this baby. I think it was at 9:30 a.m. when my husband called the ambulance and we were at the hospital by probably 9:50, maybe 10:00. We were there and the pediatrician starts telling me, “You've just got to start pushing. Just keep pushing. Keep pushing.” I'm like, “There's no way I'm having this baby.” I went 48 hours with the last one. I was barely having contractions an hour ago. There is no way this baby is coming out of me. She was like, “You've got to push. You've got to push. You've got to push.” I start pushing and then they finally convince me to roll over that I might be able to push better in that position, so I roll over to that position. I think it was three or four more pushes, and out popped a baby. At some point, I thought that she again was trying to find out where my cervix was and had her hand up inside of me and I am yelling at her to stop that. She's like, “It's not me. Your baby is coming out.” Again, I did not believe that there was a baby going to be born. I could not believe it at all. When she came out, I was again shocked like, “I just had a baby and it wasn't a C-section.” This didn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I'm just sitting there in complete shock. I couldn't believe it. I felt like, “You have a —-” because we have surprises for each of our kids. They go, “What do you have?” I told them it was a surprise. They were like, “You have another girl.” My husband was like, “Oh, three girls. Just what I always wanted.” I had my VBAC after two Cesareans and again, like you said, you're just on this birth high of, “I actually did this.” I had a second-degree tear and the pediatrician person is trying to stitch me up. Again, I'm on a stretcher. I'm also covered in poop because I was kneeling in it, so there are four nurses wiping me down and giving me a sponge bath to get all of the poop off of me. My husband and I are joking that the room smells terrible and why would 25 people want to stand around and watch this because it smells so bad in that room? So that was a lot of fun. We still joke about that now even though I tell him that he can't talk about it with anybody else. They stitched me up. The pediatrician was complaining because they don't have any beds with stirrups and they don't have any beds with the broken down parts that you give birth in, so I was on an ER stretcher and she could barely get in there to do my stitches comfortably. While we're doing this, some other lady walks in and says, “Hey, just to let you know, we don't have a mother/baby wing, so you guys are going to be transferred. Do you mind going to this hospital” that was a half hour away and I was like, “Sure. I already had the baby. I guess it doesn't matter which hospital I go to now.” They get another ambulance and they put me in an ambulance and they take me to this other hospital where I saw the OB that walked in, I think, as I was pushing from that hospital, they followed that OB down about a half hour away to come. I guess I must have been pushing there for at least a half hour because the OB walked in. He comes up and said, “Is your husband coming?” “Yep. My husband will be up.” He was at the hospital. He was like, “Oh, he was the one–” my husband has got a really big, orange beard. He's like, “Oh, he's the one with the big beard.” I was like, “Yeah.” He was telling the nurse, “This guy's got a great beard.” He goes, “I thought he was a–” the way he was dressed too, he came from school, so he was in a shirt and a tie and khakis. He goes, “I thought he was the other OB that they called and he got there first and he was just watching.” He goes, “Yeah, when I got to the hospital, she was in active labor about to have this baby, one of the nurses turned to me. She goes, ‘So, are we going up to the OR now? Are we going to do the section now?'” He was like, “I turned to her. ‘She's pushing out the baby. Why would we need to go into the OR for a C-section? Just let her have the baby. She knows what she is doing.'”It just made me laugh that again, I had a VBAC after two Cesareans in a hospital that was absolutely not prepared to even deliver a baby. Tara: Wow. Jackie: I delivered the placenta. They had to look for a hemorrhage kit because they couldn't find Pitocin to give me Pitocin. My husband was like, “Hold on. Are they dusting off that box over there? Have they never seen this before?” One of the nurses who we asked how many people had come in and had babies, she goes, “Well, I've been here for a year and nobody has had a baby here yet this year.”Tara: Wow. Jackie: She goes, “That's probably why everybody was in here. They wanted to see somebody have a baby.”Tara: Yeah. You gave them a story that they will be telling for a long time. Meagan: Yeah. Jackie: It definitely was crazy. I never thought that it could happen as fast as it did. I never thought that yeah. I never thought I would have a VBAC after two Cesareans for starters, and never thought I would have one in a hospital that doesn't deliver babies. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah that doesn't even do babies. Tara: You sent your husband to work and had the baby before lunchtime.Jackie: Well, that's what I said when I had the baby. It was 10:42 when I had the baby, so again, I was texting him at 8:00 that maybe he should come home. I think we were in the car around 9:00. 10:42 is when the baby was born. I said, “Hey, you have lunch duty soon. Do you want to go back for that?” He laughed. He goes, “I think I'll take the rest of the day off.” Meagan: I think I'll stay. Tara: His adrenaline was sky-high. Jackie: He went back to school the following day. His principal was like, “Uh, you had a baby yesterday. Why are you here?” He said, “Why shouldn't I be here? She's got nurses looking after her. She's fine. My mother's with the other two kids. We're good. I can be at school.” Tara: That's the parent of a third child right there. Jackie: Very much parents of a third child. Meagan: I love it though. I love it all. It's so awesome. Such an adrenaline rush. I mean, one that so many people are never going to forget. Seriously, you did somethingJackie: I feel like I need to send them something though, like a card saying, “I'm sorry for all the obscenities. I'm sorry I was so rude to you.” Meagan: No, no. You know, we don't take anything personally as birth workers. I mean, I know they weren't birth workers, but they can't take it personally, right? Tara: That's right. Doulas always say that everything is forgiven in labor. We know that things happen. Drama happens. Words said. People get kicked. Meagan: Words get said. Things get done. I had a mom bite me one time, my hand.Jackie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, she just grabbed my hand and bit it. After, she was just like, “Oh, did I just bite you?” I was like, “Yep, but that's what you needed to do, so you're good. You're good.” Oh, I love it. Well, congratulations. I know you're still fresh off of this and I can just feel the energy. It's so amazing. It's so amazing. Tara: It's incredible. How are you feeling about your healing so far? It's been a short time. How's it feeling in comparison? Jackie: I was a little shocked at the fact that there was more pain than I thought there was going to be having a second-degree tear and lots of lovely hemorrhoids, so sitting was not something fun. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Tara: Yeah. Jackie: So a little shocked by that, but compared to a C-section, it's so much better. I was thinking about how our bedrooms are on the second floor. The barn rec room that we're in is on the second floor, where we hang out right now doesn't have a bathroom, so I have to go up and down stairs. How was I going to do that after having a C-section? Meagan: Mhmm. Tara: Yeah. Still try not to do it too much after this birth. Meagan: Still take it easy. Still take it easy. Sometimes, we just want to get back into it. We just want to get back into it and we have to remember that we still just did a very big thing. We pushed a baby out of us and we still have to recover and give our body time. Tara: Yeah, and that's a big mistake. I definitely made it too, but when you feel so much better than the other time, you think, “Oh, I'm good to go. I can climb stairs. I can make my family dinner. I can do things that I did before I had the baby,” and it catches up with you and your healing takes a lot longer. Meagan: Yeah, don't rush it. Awesome. Tara: Give yourself some grace. Meagan: Yes, give yourself some grace. I always tell people that when you are feeling really good, that means that you need more time. Tara: That's a good one. Meagan: Just keep giving yourself time. It's okay to take it. I love it. What an amazing story though. One you will never forget. Thank you again, so much for sharing it with us. Seriously. Tara: It's an exciting one. Jackie: Thank you. One of the things my husband said to me after I had the VBAC, he goes, “Hey, now you can be on that podcast you listen to all of the time.” Meagan: Oh! Jackie: He's like, “You can call them up.” Meagan: Did you tell him when you got the email? Jackie: I haven't yet because I was like, “What happens if something goes wrong and we don't actually get to record and it gets canceled or whatever?” But I'll tell him when he gets home. My four-year-old actually woke up throwing up this morning and I was like, “Oh, I'm not going to be able to do this because she's going to be throwing up all day,” but she's held it down for the whole hour. Tara: You've got a lot going on. Meagan: Yes, you do. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for taking all of the time today to share this beautiful story, and congratulations once again. Jackie: Thank you so much for inviting me on. Tara: Congratulations, Jackie. Enjoy those baby cuddles. Meagan: I know, those little coos are so sweet. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

TVL Holiday Special #1 Olga Leiser's Breech VBAC + 2VBAC

Pure Nurture Pregnancy and Birth | A Holistic Approach

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2022 65:55

“We named her Frankie because she was frank breech.”Guess what, Women of Strength? For the month of December, our gift to you is TWO weekly episodes! We are honored to kick off our Holiday Special episodes with our amazingly impressive friend, Olga. Olga shares her birth stories of an unplanned Cesarean, a frank breech VBAC, then ending full circle with an unmedicated VBAC. She has so much wisdom to share and we are here for all of it. She experienced so much personal growth and transformation with each birth.Topics include:AROM checklistHip DysplasiaProtecting your mental space before birthFreezing colostrum during pregnancySibling doulasHappy Holidays, TVL Community!Additional linksBebo Mia's WebinarThe VBAC Link Doula Training CourseInformed Pregnancy Podcast VBAC Breech EpisodeHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia's webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn't even crossed your mind. That's why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Hello, hello you guys. This is our very first-ever holiday edition. I decided that in the month of December, we are going to put out two episodes a week. I am so excited today to bring you the first one. This is a good friend of mine. Her name is Olga. You guys, she is amazing. She is a powerhouse mom. That is for sure. She graduated from Harvard. She's been featured in Forbes magazine with 30 under 30, 40 under 40, Cranes New York. She has run an insanely successful business. She raises three kids. She is an amazing wife, an amazing person, so amazing. I'm so honored to have her here with us today. She has a story to share with you that we actually haven't heard for a long time. It's going to be a breech VBAC. Review of the WeekMeagan: I'm so excited to hear her story, but of course, we have a review of the week so before we do that, I'm going to review our course actually. This is from Erin Stanton. She says, “I absolutely love this doula training course. I feel far more prepared on the unique needs of the family planning of VBAC birth. Thank you so much for creating this resource for birth professionals and families.” Thank you, Erin. If you guys did not know, we have a course for both preparing parents that are wanting to know their options for birth after Cesarean and then we offer an education course for doulas and birth workers who want to learn more about the unique needs of a VBAC parent and a VBAC family. Unfortunately, we talk about this all of the time that we are just people going in to have babies just like everybody else, but because we have that previous Cesarean, unfortunately, we have this unique part where we are viewed a little bit differently in most of the medical world. So if you are wanting to dive in and learn more about your options for birth after Cesarean or how to support your birthing clients, definitely check out our website at thevbaclink.com.Olga's StoryOlga: I'm actually the person who took a class, too. Meagan: Yes, you did. Olga: I loved the course and actually, I did it with my husband which was really helpful for him to feel more comfortable about the birth. I definitely, highly recommend it. I know you didn't ask my opinion, but I do highly recommend the course. Meagan: I love your opinion. It is so important. My husband, personally, didn't want to do any of the birthing courses with me and wasn't super interested in it. He just didn't understand it way back when. Now, he's like, “Oh, yeah. I totally get it.” But it's so awesome to do with your significant other or your birthing partner because VBAC definitely has some things and some scare tactics, and just some interesting things that come along the way. If your partner can be as educated as you are, you're not feeling left like you have to defend your reason why you do or don't want to do something, so it's so great for you guys to be in a collaborative space. You guys know, you're educated equally, and then you can support each other because they need support too. Olga: Totally. Your course is awesome because it was self-paced, so we actually broke it down into 30 minutes. We did it whenever our toddler was sleeping. We did it on Saturdays together and I think it brought us together and got him comfortable with the idea of a VBAC because it has so many helpful statistics about how safe it is. I think as you said, there are so many scare tactics, but when you see data on paper in front of you, it just helps lose that fear, so I highly recommend it. I'm sorry to jump in. Meagan: No, I love it. I love it. Why don't we just segue right into your amazing birth journeys? I feel like in ways, I have in each birth– and it's probably with everyone really. We all each have unique birth stories, but I feel like all of your birth stories have even more unique spins. You have very different things and each one of them is even more amazing. So let's turn the time over to you and share your stories. Olga: Thank you. I am just so privileged to be here because I listened to every single podcast episode when I was preparing for my VBAC. I feel like I know you so well, so it's just such an honor. So thank you so much for having me. To jump right in and start the story where it really started, I had a miscarriage before my first birth. I just think that people who have gone through miscarriages– it's just such a difficult situation and it's such a difficult process. I do think that I was definitely depressed after and I think having a miscarriage before you have kids is so difficult too because you are questioning, “Can my body even have a baby?” and all sorts of things. When I got pregnant with my first baby girl who made me a mommy, who I wouldn't change anything for the world, I really was scared. We did not take a single course because when I got pregnant with my miscarriage baby, I bought all of the books and I started planning in my mind. I think as I got pregnant, I was just scared to jinx it. I think I really didn't even admit it to myself that I was pregnant or get attached to the baby– Meagan: Yeah, that is very common. Olga: –until I was probably 24 weeks. I remember reading, it was like, “Hit 24 weeks and the baby's survival rate was 90%.” I really took a deep breath. I felt like at that point, I was like, “Oh my god. I am having a baby.” Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Olga: And so I think a lot of things I did differently with preparing for my VBAC were the complete opposite from my first birth. I trusted the provider right away. I sort of fell into this– I was living in New York City. I had lived in New York City for 15 years at the time. My OB had a practice on the floor above her that was delivering babies. She was like, “Okay, that's where you go.” It turned out that the practice was pretty desirable. I didn't know the questions to ask and I just sort of, as you said early on, trusted that we all deliver babies and I would know what to do when it all happened. Meagan: Right. Olga: We looked at having a doula and we thought it was this boho thing to do. We were two professionals in New York and we were like, “Whatever.” We knew the doctors. We were delivering at NYU, and so it was this sort of fear of losing the baby, not believing that we were pregnant, and then trusting the system, trusting that they have the best interests in mind and that everything will be done. And then the other thing I think is that there is so much pressure around you that it's 40 weeks, everybody is like, “It's 9 months.” I never even knew that people go past their due date ever. I am a fairly educated person, but I've never heard anything. To be fair, I did not take any courses or anything with my first because I was just so scared of the jinxing of having a baby. I literally was– here we are, about to go into the birth. At 40 weeks, I was just like, “Oh my god. The baby is not here.” My husband has two sisters and they all delivered pretty early. They were like, “Be prepared.” So at 32 weeks, I wrote a transition birth plan in my office. Everybody was ready and then here we are two months later and still no baby. The other thing is that my daughter is named after my grandma who is the closest person on earth to me. She is no longer with us. She was born on January 1st and my due date, I think, was January 4th and so I was sure I would be birthing on January 1st. I think I mentally prepared myself so when that didn't happen and the due date came and there was no baby, I was like, “What is going on?” I gained quite a lot of weight because I felt like it was a free pass to eat whatever I wanted to. Meagan: Oh man, right here. That's what happened to me too. Olga: That was you? Yeah. Also, I was in New York City. They were so scared of me falling on ice that they wouldn't let me work out. I also had some sort of previous situations where I was sort of put on no working out starting in the second trimester and no sex. I mean, it was nothing scary. I had two little procedures. I had precancer cells early on. They cut those out, so they were worried that the cervix wouldn't hold the baby. They were like, “Don't work out. Don't do this.” I'm not naturally working out because I'm not walking. It's winter in New York City. I'm going and not doing anything, so I was gaining weight and eating whatever I wanted. I also did not know anything about baby positioning, so I was lying in the corner of my couch every night, basically encouraging my baby to be OP which we will talk about as I prepared for my second birth. I got sciatica or whatever it's called. Meagan: Sciatica? Uh-huh. Olga: Sciatica, yeah. Meagan: Which is miserable.Olga: Well, so it was on my due date. I was actually at a museum with my husband and my mom. We were so amateur that we flew my mom in at 39 weeks to help us and here we are, no baby and we were like, “What are we doing?” Both of us were working crazy hours. I was in the office the day before I delivered. There was no mental preparation. It was sort of like this was happening to me and I wasn't in control of the process whatsoever. I was letting all of these things happen to me. The doctor was like, “Oh, you should go take a bath,” so I went in to go and take a bath. When I was in the bath, there was some sort of liquid that came out. As pregnant women know, there's just stuff that happens to our bodies, so I didn't think anything of it except, later on, I called them and I was like, The leg didn't get better.” I couldn't walk, basically, during the last few days of my pregnancy. I was like, “The leg didn't get better, but my underwear just keeps getting wet.” She's like, “Well, your water probably broke, so you have to come to the hospital within 12 hours.” The 12 hours was supposed to be 3:00 a.m. I was like, to my husband, “Let's just leave more.” So at 6:00 a.m., we go to the hospital. They test my underwear and they were like, “Oh yeah, your water did break.” They admitted me to the hospital and there were no contractions, nothing. The woman, the doctor comes in. She checks my water levels through an ultrasound and she's like, “Oh no. There's so much water. Your water didn't break. But now you're here and you're admitted, so you're going to stay and we will induce you.” To be fair, they did give me an option of whether to be induced or not, but when you are uneducated, everything being positioned to you is very much like, “This is what you do next,” as opposed to, “Here are the risks. Here are the benefits.” Because I was in so much pain, I couldn't really walk, and I was ready. I felt so ready. And also, mentally, my mother-in-law was there, and we were ready to send my mom back. I felt so much pressure on me to go and deliver this baby as opposed to waiting for this natural moment of her being ready. Also, they were so worried about infection because they did think the water was breaking first and then they kind of put this fear in me. Long story short, they started me on Pitocin. I think they did the Foley bulb. That fell out. At 4 centimeters, I get an epidural. Again, everything is positioned like, “This is what you do.” I was also very natural during pregnancy. I didn't drink coffee. I just was so thoughtful about it. At that point, I'm like, “Give me all of the drugs.” I was so scared of this birth. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Olga: We'll talk later about how my attitude shifted during this experience. There, I was like, “Give me all of the drugs.” They put an epidural in me. I'm rotating. They were like, “Oh, we'll see you in the morning.” I did dilate from 6 to 10 centimeters in an hour. Meagan: Which is amazing. Olga: But I'm telling the nurse, I'm like, “I have to go poop,” or “I have to push.” She's like, “No. That's not possible.” So I did have to advocate for myself a little for them to check me. They checked me and they were like, “Oh my god. Yes, that's true.” So they check me. I'm 10 centimeters and they were like, “Here we go. Time to push.” I pushed for three and a half hours. The baby was OP. They did break my water at 4 centimeters which is probably why I dilated so fast. Nobody checked the baby's positioning. She was really, really, really high up, OP, and I know all of this thanks to the course that I did with you because, after the course, I did request my operating notes. Those are all of the things that I was able to learn in those operating notes. I remember making that call was so scary, but after three and a half hours, I was okay. My epidural didn't work. It stopped working and I was feeling all of the pain. I will say that the Pitocin contractions are so brutal. There's no break for a woman. Again, now that I've experienced natural labor, it's just so different. Meagan: It's very different, yeah. Olga: Very different.Meagan: They are in a whole different ballpark with Pitocin versus natural Pitocin. Olga: Absolutely. Exactly. There were three times in my labor that I truly thought I was going to die actually. I had this out-of-body experience where I wanted to move. My body was screaming, “Move!” and they wouldn't let me because I had an epidural and I was lying down. My body took over and I got on my knees and my fours. Sadly, that was already three hours into pushing, but I was still willing to push more. I was so committed and the doctor's position was, “No.” I did ask her for 30 minutes more. The baby would come down as I was pushing and then she would come back up because she was stuck. There was no lubricant. They broke my water. Again, now knowing everything, I'm so glad for whoever is listening to this episode. Everything I've learned and educated myself with was through the course and listening to the podcasts. But here I am with a really traumatic birth in the sense that they rolled me in after three and a half hours of pushing and 24 hours of labor. I'm exhausted. I developed a fever by that point. They get the baby out and I'm shaking. I literally want to cry just flashing back to that experience. Yeah. Lying down there, arms trapped and shaking profusely. The baby comes out. Of course, you are happy to see the baby. Who isn't? They touched cheek to cheek. They didn't do skin-to-skin or anything like that. The anesthesiologist is like, “Do you want me to knock you down?” And I said, “Yes.” Meagan: Because you were shaking so badly? Olga: I was shaking so badly. I remember asking my husband to tell me why he loves me and how we met. He was just sitting there next to me telling me the story of how we met and why he fell in love with me because I just wanted to make it all worth it. I don't know what was going on through that, but his telling me that story is what started to calm me down. But I wanted to get knocked down. I was shaking. I was cold. The experience is not what I later loved about delivering vaginally. I also felt like those things were done to me as opposed to my body birthing my child. I remember a few days after, I didn't even see my baby. They took her to NICU because I had a fever. They put her on antibiotics. She also had jaundice. Everybody was texting us, “Oh, did you have the baby? What's the baby's name?” It honestly didn't feel like I had the baby. You still have the tummy. You're just lying there and in New York, I really hope nobody delivers in the kind of inhumane conditions. You're next to other people who maybe have their baby. You're sharing a room. Meagan: That's crazy. Olga: It's really crazy. I just felt like I didn't know if I delivered the baby. I didn't know any of those things. It was not a pleasant experience. My girlfriends were asking me after. They were like, “Oh, are you going to have more kids?” At that point, I was like, “No. I don't think I'm going to have more kids.” It felt like my body failed me which is unfortunate to say, but in reality, I failed my body in part too because I wasn't prepared to advocate for myself. That was a really traumatic experience for Ryan, my husband, and really traumatic for me. Part of it was not being educated, not knowing a lot, and letting somebody else decide what is right for me. But I did have a beautiful baby girl.Meagan: And her name is Lara? Olga: Her name is Lara. She is named after my grandma. She was born on January 7th and she made me a mommy and I will forever be grateful to her for that. When she was one, I got pregnant with my little Frankie. She was basically a COVID baby. I decided that I was going to step down. I had a really intense job. As I said, I worked right before I delivered my baby. I went back to work four days after. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Olga: Yeah. It definitely took me– literally on the day of the C-section, I came home and I had a call. It was investors and things like that. A lot of it was self-imposed. I think it did take me a minute to figure out that I'm a parent and that things have changed. I'm a very driven person as many people are. Yeah. I just felt a little bit disconnected at the moment from my body and the birth realizing all of that stuff. I went back to work. I had the most amazing nanny who helped me and my mom was there, so I felt very supported, but my C-section recovery was brutal. I had to sleep sitting up. I couldn't lie down. I don't know now why that was. I was on all of these drugs. I just was in so much pain. Again, I don't wish C-section on anybody. I do think it saves lives and I think there is a place for it, absolutely. I think it is the most amazing invention, but I don't think it should be as widely used as it is today by just anybody when you get bored. I later learned that my doctor was about to change shifts and she just was ready for me to get this going. I love when you guys talk about failure to progress as failure to wait. I mean, obviously, mine wasn't about failure to progress but it was about partially about failure to wait and also not letting my body move around and get this baby in the position that my body needed it to be in. Fast forward, here I was. I decided that I was going to take a year off. I worked really crazy with no vacations for many years and then I decided to take a year off and travel. Of course, you plan and then life happens. COVID happens. I get pregnant and I was going to travel with my one little girl, but I definitely wanted my kids to be close in age. We got pregnant and we found out it was a little girl. COVID pregnancy was definitely a challenge and I think you covered it. Husbands couldn't go there. You don't have support. You don't have as much self-care. I think it's different today, but we were really early in COVID. At the time, I lived in New York City and it was very, very scary to be there. We moved literally in four days. My girlfriend who lived in L.A. was like, “Stay in my house. We are going up to San Francisco because my parents need to help with childcare,” so we moved in four days. We told to movers just to send it to L.A. and that we were going to find an apartment. It was an incredible decision for us because, in COVID, I was able to be active. The weather was nice. My toddler could run around and explore. It was a really wonderful decision. I ended up working through COVID because the situation was so volatile that my board asked me to stay. I did end up stepping down a month before my baby was born. But even though I was working, my husband always laughs. I was a Type A student. I took VBAC as something I was really going to learn a lot about and feel really prepared. I took the class with you. I got a doula who also was a VBAC mama. I know you guys have a directory of VBAC-trained doulas and I think that is so, so important. My doula was incredible. I started preparing mentally and physically. I read a lot about Spinning Babies and really getting baby into the optimal position. I walked for 3 miles. I ran for as long as I could and then I walked for 3 miles at the end. There was a ritual that my husband and I did. We would put our toddler to bed and then we would walk around our house. It was our moment for each other, but also to bring us together and talk about the VBAC, and talk about us preparing. Those months preparing for the VBAC were what I should have done probably with my first, but you live and you learn. I'm so grateful that I've had all of these experiences. I stayed active. I learned a lot. I listened to the podcast. I took the course. Every time I would go to the chiropractor or my doctor, I would just listen to an episode. One piece of advice that I have, and I know we haven't talked about giving advice to people, but I would save my favorite episodes so at the end, during my last month, I only stayed in positive spaces. I only listened to the episodes that I saved. Meagan: I love that. Olga: There was an episode that you guys had where a woman from Atlanta also had a breech birth because, at that time, I already knew that I was having breech. She had it out of Atlanta. She is a wife of a football guy maybe. Meagan: Uh-huh, yep. Olga: I don't remember her name, but that episode, I probably listened to 10-20 times in that last month just to channel that positivity. With my third baby which I will talk about in a second, I also had a few episodes that were relevant to me and I just felt like relistening to them all of the time was a really helpful thing for me at least. That's my advice is to save your favorites so that you can easily channel them and listen to them. Meagan: I love that. Olga: I saved for my husband the episodes I wanted him to hear. Very curated. I would be like, “Listen to this girl. She pushed for a long time too,” or whatever so that he was comfortable, but that he also knew what to do and how to get comfortable. By the end of August, my baby was born at the end of September, but by the end of August, I stepped down from my job. Again, I feel very privileged that I was able to do that. I know a lot of people have to work until the last moment. But even if you have to work until the last moment, I think carving out space for yourself and your baby and connecting with them is so, so valuable. Whether it's when your toddler is napping or when your husband comes home, even if it's that 3-mile walk around the neighborhood, I just think that we expect our bodies and ourselves to just go with this birth. No. It's a big thing in our lives. Let's give it the attention that it deserves. I really eliminated anything. That last month was just so spiritual for me and really, surrender is the word that I wrote above my bed. Anytime I would have things that you guys would say or I learned, I would write in big letters and put these flashcards next to my bed so that I would remind myself. I think I still have it. Meagan: I love that. Olga: And by the way, “Eat before you go to the hospital” was my big one. Meagan: Yes. Olga: A couple of things– I know some people consider home birth but for me, the hospital was a no-brainer. Actually, even though I had this traumatic birth, luckily, I was now in a different city, so the hospital was different. I didn't have those negative associations with this hospital, but for me, hospitals actually make me feel safe because I feel like if I need help, there is care just seconds away which we will talk about how that played into my birth as it unfolded later on. We never even contemplated the idea of home birth. When I moved to L.A., as I said I was staying at my friend's house and I asked her about who her OB was. The one thing that was really, really important to me was having the same person who sees me deliver the baby. That, I really knew was important to me because the first practice was a rotating practice and I felt lost because I would see different providers at different times. I felt like there was no consistency of advice or thoughts. It was just that everybody would give you different things. Even before I found the amazing provider who I ended up with, even before that, the few places that I called, I was always asking. I did decide not to go with a few practices because they were on a rotating schedule. The woman I found was absolutely lovely and I think was probably VBAC-friendly as opposed to VBAC-supportive. At least she wanted to position herself as VBAC-supportive, but I could tell that she was more on the VBAC-friendly side. She was delivering all of her patients and that was important to me. So when my baby consistently was showing up breech, I was 30 weeks and I was like, “Well, I know you keep saying that it's still okay. The baby might turn, but if the baby continues to be breech, can I still have a VBAC?” At that point, she said, “No. It's hospital policy.” Mind you, I delivered a breech VBAC at that same hospital. She said, “It's hospital policy to do breech via C-section.” So I said, “Thank you.” Through your podcast, I already listened to women who had delivered breech vaginally. I started looking for a provider. I saw Dr. Berlin who I think you have had on the podcast for chiropractic care. Meagan: Yes, so amazing. So amazing. Olga: Yes. I love him so much. When I found him through my doula, I was like, “Dr. Berlin, she continues to be breech,” and she was like, “Oh, then you see Dr. Brock.” I was like, “What? I see Dr. Brock. Who is Dr. Brock?” Then I went and listened to his podcast. He has a podcast as well called Informed Pregnancy with Dr. Brock. As I was driving home, I listened to a breech VBAC birth with Dr. Brock, I just loved him. He was totally a straight shooter just like me. I was like, “This is going to be my doctor.” Making that phone call to him and be like, “Will you take me? I'm 34 weeks,” was really scary. He was like, “Absolutely.” It was so empowering. I saw him and he is just amazing. I switched my care at 34, maybe it was 35 weeks to Dr. Brock in L.A. He delivers at Cedars. Again, that other doctor was saying it was a hospital policy not to do breech. Guess what? Dr. Brock delivered at the same hospital a breech VBAC. When baby continued to be breech, I think at 36 weeks, he did an ultrasound to confirm the position. He honestly gave me the most informed decisions. He said, “You have three options. You can have a C-section if you want and here are the risks. You can have an ECV and try to turn the baby, and you can just not have an ECV and you can have a breech VBAC.” I guess there were four options. He was like, “You can have an ECV and still decide to have a C-section. You don't have to do an ECV and you could have a C-section or you could have a vaginal birth.” I wanted to try to turn the baby. I had an ECV. Dr. Brock has a pretty high chance of turning during an ECV. I also did acupuncture and moxibustion. I did it all. I had Dr. Berlin who is known to turn babies do all of his magic. I did Spinning Babies. I did the ice over my belly. She is stubborn. She was stubborn in my belly. She is so stubborn still. She was really wedged down in my pelvis. She was really low really early in my pregnancy. She was really breech. Meagan: Not moving. Olga: Yeah, she was not going to change. She wanted her own story. I will say that women who have breech babies just have to remind themselves that breech is a variation of normal. That saying was a mantra for me that I kept. “Breech is a variation of normal. Breech is a variation of normal,” and just reminding myself that this is just a variation of normal and that it's okay to have a breech baby. Of course, I was nervous.Meagan: Right, yeah.Olga: Breech babies can have their complications and Dr. Brock was terrific at explaining all of the risks. The bottom line is that the risks of breech are very different than the risks of VBAC. They are just different. It's not like the breech VBAC is scarier or more difficult. It's that they just each have their own fears. We decided to do breech VBAC. Dr. Brock is a super expert in that. We felt really supported. It did change a few things. I really wanted an unmedicated VBAC because my epidural failed with my first and I also never wanted Pitocin. I just wanted to move around. There is something I learned which is a walking epidural which I actually did not use, but my hospital at Cedars offers. For anybody listening, they should learn about a walking epidural. It sounds like a way better option than just the regular epidural but everybody has their own choice obviously. The walking epidural allows you to move around. Meagan: It's a lighter dose. It's technically a lighter dose. Like you were saying, you were fighting the urge to move with your first one and your body took over and you went hands and knees, with a walking epidural, it's lighter. You're able to feel a little bit more, but still not feel everything if that makes sense. Olga: Yeah. I was so scared about the positioning and everything as well. I wanted to move. I wanted an unmedicated VBAC, but as we learned that she was breech, my doctor's rules were that you had to get an epidural for the delivery stage which I also didn't know that pushing and delivery are two different stages.For him, you can push without an epidural, but as it came time to deliver the baby, there was a chance in a breech that he had to move the baby and he needed the mother to stay completely still obviously because my understanding is that with breech, the biggest risk is that if the butt comes out and it's so big that it blocks the cord and there is no air coming into the baby's head. So he at that moment would have to maneuver and deliver the baby right away fully and he could not have the mother move around. That is obviously, the worst-case scenario. That's why you want to have a provider who is very experienced. I knew that I would have an epidural. I get to the hospital. Long story short, here we are. I am mentally prepared. I have an amazing provider. I studied with you guys. I listened to all of the podcasts and it's Friday. I'll never forget it. My husband was like, “I'm going to go golf. Are you okay with that?” I'm 39+2 days. As a reminder, my first baby was late. Meagan: Yep. Olga: I was like, “Fine.” Oh actually, after the ECV, I do have to say that he did check me. I was at 37.5 weeks. I was 4 centimeters dilated already.Meagan: Okay, so your body was doing some prep. Olga: Yeah, so I was already 4 centimeters dilated, but my doctor told me and I think I was 50%, maybe 80% effaced. He was saying to me, “Guess what? As a second baby, you can go for weeks like that.” Meagan: So true. Olga: That was a good reminder not to freak out, but I still put everybody on alert. The other thing I did the last month was that I really stopped talking to anybody negatively even close people in my life. I do recommend creating and being your own advocate. What do you need? I needed a positive space, a healthy and happy. I didn't listen to any podcasts that I didn't preapprove in my prep before. I was just in this happy, protective space. Meagan: Yes. Olga: I wasn't reading the news. I really isolated myself to these happy things and hung out with my toddler. As I said, I stepped down from work and really had the space to prepare. I got my own gown for the hospital. I got my own socks for the hospital. I got an IV band that said, “I can do this,” to remind myself and really cover because I didn't want to get an IV, but my hospital still required me to get one. Meagan: Especially with VBAC. Olga: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to cover that because again, I wanted to be in this special mental space. My husband was like, “Oh. I'm going to go golf.” I'm like, “No problem. It's a Friday. Go golf.” I was kind of feeling yucky. Meagan: Signs. Olga: I was texting my girlfriend, but I didn't take it as a sign at all because I didn't feel great with my first baby at the end, so I figured it was just sort of that I was getting so late in the pregnancy. I remember texting my girlfriend. I'm like, “Do you remember feeling yucky at the end?” She was like, “I really don't.” I was like, “I'm feeling so yucky today.” I had a work call. I took the call and I'm starting to have this leakage in my underwear. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well, just put a pad on it.” Sorry, TMI. But I'm like, “Okay.” I put a pad on it which I wouldn't have even thought. I love and am such a big advocate for doulas. My doula, Elizabeth, from Luma Birth but used to be Grace and Gratitude is just so incredible. So I basically went in and put the pad in. It kept soaking but super slowly. From listening to your podcast and from all of the studies, you always say that if your water breaks, if you stay in your own environment with your own bacteria, there is really not a high risk of infection. Just don't go outside. So I was like, “Okay. I'll stay home,” even if the water broke. Literally, I am at home in the middle of this work call and it dawns on me, “Oh my god. What if it is different with breech?” So I freak out. I'm like, “Oh, I am so sorry. I have to call you back.” I hang up the phone and call my doctor. I'm like, “Dr. Brock. There is a small chance that my water broke. It is leaking. I didn't have a gush or anything like that.” I'm like, “Oh my god. Do I come to see you? It's still Friday.” He's like, “Okay. Here's the thing. If your water broke, I'll see you in 12-24 hours because your contractions are going to start. If your water didn't break, I'll see you on Monday for our scheduled appointment.” You know, he is incredible. He is so professional. He has done millions of births. He has done breech VBAC and to hear the reassurance from him. He was so calm and collected. This just again is a reminder to everybody who is listening that if your water breaks, don't worry. Until contractions start, nothing else matters. Your water breaking doesn't mean your labor began at least in my opinion. Meagan: It doesn't mean you're going to have a baby at home necessarily either. You have to have contractions.Olga: Right, no. Meagan: You have to push a baby out. It's so hard. I always want to remind people that if your heart and your mind and your whole soul and your intuition is saying that you need to go somewhere else, then follow it. But if not, you're typically pretty safe just hanging out and waiting for labor to begin. Olga: Totally and that was so helpful for me that he reassured me. And now, looking back, I do think that my daughter's water broker partially from just the leaking, and I was rushed to the hospital when I did. I probably would have leaked over time. That was happening, so all day, I was feeling yucky. I wasn't having any contractions, at least the ones that I could feel. Again, I have never felt natural contractions so I wouldn't even know what it was feeling like. Meagan: Right. Olga: It was all happening. I did lose my mucus plug weeks before. So here I am. I ordered Domino's. I just was sort of in this environment and my daughter who was at the time 20 months knew. She was holding my baby the whole day. Meagan: Clingy. Olga: Yeah, yeah. Looking back at the pictures from the day, it was one of the sweetest days of my life, to be honest. We just hung out at home, held each other, and watched shows, which, we almost never watch TV. It was a really special day. And then my husband came home. I was like, “You know what? I'm tired. I'm just going to go rest.” At 1:00 a.m., I woke up to go to the bathroom which as anybody in the third trimester knows, we go to the bathroom a lot at the end. I go in there and I'm on the potty. I sit there and I almost felt like she just kicked me. It was like, “Now I know.” It was such a strong contraction. I moved around in the bathroom and it felt great for me to sit in the bathroom always through the third trimester, so I did spend a lot of time on the toilet. I was sitting there. I repositioned myself. I got up to go back to bed. I didn't think anything of it and then boom I get another one. When people say that when contractions start, you know you know, you absolutely know. Meagan: You know, yeah. Olga: On the second contraction, I woke up my husband and I was like, “This is the real deal.” To be fair, for a week before, I did have some Braxton Hicks which I didn't really have with my first. I was calling my doula and I'm like, “I'm having contractions and we are walking around.” She was like, “Okay. How long are they lasting?” I'm like, “I don't know. They fizzle out.” She's like, “That's not a real contraction then.” It is so helpful to have a doula because you can ask all of these questions that maybe feel silly but they're not. Meagan: Well, and help you avoid going in if you don't need to go in and having to call a doctor to get a question. It just helps, yeah. Olga: Totally, totally. So here, I woke up my husband. I'm like, “I know it's real.” We called my doula. She was like, “Stay at home as long as you want and as long as you know.” I'm going to start getting ready. This is 1:00 a.m. On Friday morning, I recall my water breaking at 9:00 a.m. and leaking. This is 1:00 a.m. on Saturday morning. I woke him up. My doula was like, “Listen, let your husband sleep so that he can get some rest, and if you can sleep, sleep as well,” but I was like, “I'm not going to be able to sleep.”I'm calling my girlfriend who is on call to take my baby. She is not picking up the phone which is quite a story but I'm like, “Okay. Let's get going here.” He went to bed in the living room and about 20 minutes in, I woke him up. I'm like, “We have to go to the hospital.” But I guess it wasn't 20 minutes later. It was probably about 4:00 a.m. I just knew at that time that it was starting to get real. Meagan: This is it. Olga: I do have to say that this birth, to me, was so spiritual. During my wedding, I honored my grandma. As I already mentioned, I honored my grandma during the naming of my first baby. But I was not really thinking about my grandma during this birth and during my prep. She was there. I just know. This birth was so spiritual. I was preparing by moving. I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. I love that book. I was practicing moving. I was practicing doing all of these things. I was singing like my grandma would. Out of nowhere, and I am not good. Let me preface, I am not a singer or anything like that. That was such a feeling from within. During my wedding, I made this reference to her, a bracelet. I found the bracelet and I held it in. I just have to say that my baby's birth was so, so spiritual in so many ways. It was one of the most incredible things that had ever happened to me. I was in another world. I was truthfully in another world. I see sometimes people post on Facebook and ask how a body can survive without an epidural and all of these things. You are not in this world. You are bringing life into this world. This is incredible and our bodies can do this because it's not Pitocin contractions. It's really your body that creates them. I was singing through my contractions. I picked up my baby and she was holding me tight. I was having contractions and I was holding her. It just was such a magical moment bringing another baby. I was talking to her and I was telling her how we were working as a team. I had to drop off my daughter. Luckily, my girlfriend gave me the code to her house. Otherwise, they both had their phones off her husband and her. I'm literally walking into their bedroom. It's 5:00 in the morning. I'm like, “Here's my baby. Please.” Meagan: I've gotta go. I've gotta go, yeah. Olga: They were 5 minutes from the hospital. We get to the hospital. It's 6:00 in the morning. They check me. I'm 6 centimeters dilated and 100% effaced. She checks me and they admit me. They then say, “Okay. You are admitted.” From triage, my doula joins me. I really didn't love the nurse and my doula was like, “Don't worry. They change shifts at 7.” At 6:45, I feel like I have to push. I'm so grateful that my doula was there because she advocated for me. Again, I was so educated. I thought that you could advocate for yourself. No, you cannot. You are in a different world. Meagan: It's really hard. Really hard. Olga: So I'm like, “Elizabeth, I have to push.” I'm on my knees, singing through it. She's like, “You have to check her.” They were like, “No. It's not possible.” The lady comes in. She checks me. She's like, “It's not possible. Her water is intact.” Then, the physician assistant comes in who works with my doctor is like, “That's not her water. That is her butt.” I guess it feels the same to them. Meagan: Squishy. Olga: The water did break. There was no water at that point. It was squishy, yeah. Crazy thing is, here we are. I'm ready to push. We need to put the epidural in. My doctor is away because he didn't realize that would progress so fast. Everybody is waiting for him. Everybody is freaking out. I don't know anything because I am in a different world, but my husband told me that everybody was freaking out. There were a hundred doctors in there, a breech VBAC. What is going on? Meagan: Have to see it. Olga: Yeah, and so until my doctor got there, my husband always talks about how once he got there, the atmosphere was like, okay. Everything is going to be okay. That's the other thing. You can ask your doctor if he is going to be there for the whole pushing stage. My Dr. Brock was there for an hour and a half while I was pushing. He held my hand. He talked to me. It was just so incredible. I did have an epidural. I dilated to 10 without an epidural, then got an epidural and pushed for an hour and a half. I had the most beautiful, amazing beautiful baby girl. We named her Frankie because she was frank breech. We were so interested to know. Is Frank the name of the guy who invented frank breech? We weren't sure. We later found out that frank just means stubborn breech. Meagan: Oh, I didn't even know that. Olga: Frank breech is stubborn breech. She is so stubborn. She picked her own name. It was already sort of part of our list of names. That was the breech VBAC story. So then when my little stubborn baby– oh. The one thing I do want to mention here is with breech, if your baby is breech for a long time, even if they change to head down, make sure you have them check for hip dysplasia. I do think a lot of people don't know. I didn't know about this at all. It's completely normal. My baby had hip dysplasia because she was breech basically the whole pregnancy. This is really important because I think that a lot of people think that if they had a C-section, their babies wouldn't have hip dysplasia, but that's not the case. It's how the baby is inside of you. Their hips just don't develop. My baby was then placed in a pelvic harness. That harness imitates what a head-down baby down inside of your body and the hip develops normally. Most times, it resolves on its own. You still have to follow up, but my recommendation is to just make sure that you have them check for it because I am in all of these Facebook groups with people who didn't get checked and they, unfortunately, have a much more complicated time fixing it a little bit later. That was definitely an adjustment and journey on its own. When my little baby was 8 months, we surprisingly got pregnant with our little gift, baby boy. We always wanted three kids, so he just had his own surprise timing. We did try pretty hard with our first two girls. We didn't use IVF or any of the other procedures, but it still took us a while to get pregnant. So it definitely was a surprise pregnancy with our third. He is such a miracle. I had a very difficult first trimester and now, thinking back about it, it could have been because he is a boy. I don't know if there are gender stereotypes in pregnancy but I had a lot of bleeding. I really almost lost him a few times. One of the times there was so much blood. I still cannot believe that he survived. He is such a miraculous little baby. I just cannot be happier having him. He is my light. He is 9 months actually, so 9 months in and 9 months out. Meagan: Crazy. Olga: Yeah. I had an unmedicated birth with him. I think one of the reasons that he wanted to be born so fast is because I think he was scared that Dr. Brock would retire. He knew that I had to have that birth. So I got pregnant. Again, I was very, very active. I obviously had two little kids who still really needed me. I did walk 3 miles. This was much harder in the sense that there are two kids that need you who are so young, but my husband and I both worked as a team. We made sure that I had the space to– and again, you have to advocate for yourself. I talked to my husband. I said, “I need this time to walk because that's how I feel like I am preparing for this birth.” We hired a doula again. One thing that I would say is that this time, my doula had to be gone at 41 weeks. She had a scheduled vacation. I found a backup doula with her help. They partnered together so that if I would go past 41 weeks which in my book is a little bit more complicated birth because the baby will be bigger naturally, so I wanted to make sure that I didn't feel rushed. You have to be so thoughtful about ensuring what you need for a good birth. Set yourself up for success. I didn't want to have any pressure. I had two amazing doulas this time. One of them was at my first birth and the same woman, Elizabeth, ended up being at this birth too. I was doing all of the same things– chiropractic care, acupuncture, listening to all of the podcasts again because this time it wasn't a breech baby. He was head down and I wanted to have an unmedicated birth. The book that I read both times was Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. This time, what really stuck out to me what, I don't know if you remember the chapter where she was developing this mantra of, “I'm going to be big”. Essentially, what she was talking about is that you can channel your vagina to open up wider to let your baby out so that you don't have any tears. I didn't have tears with either of my births and I do say that my doctor told me that that's kind of on him. I said to him, “Dr. Brock, what can I do to prepare to not have tears?” He said, “It's all on me. We have to go nice and slow, nice and slow.” It was so helpful for me to just channel that mantra and I did use that during my birth with my son. I'm going to be big. It also did take my mind off the ring of fire and all of those things that people talk about that sound scary. I wasn't thinking about that because I was chanting almost like, “I'm gonna be big. I'm gonna big.”Long story short, at my 39-week appointment, leading up to it again, I was 4 centimeters dilated. I guess that's how my body processes it. We were talking about doing a membrane sweep at 40 weeks. I was contemplating whether I wanted to do it or not. I really wanted a no-interventions birth. I decided that at 40 weeks, I would do it. I was going to my 39-week appointment and because I was already 4 centimeters dilated, I was a little bit nervous. We lived an hour and a half from the hospital because now we had moved further out. I was a little bit nervous to be driving and also, we don't have family living nearby and my girlfriend couldn't really take on two more kids who are so young, we got a sibling doula. Meagan: Yes. Olga: Our goal as a sibling doula was anytime I had my appointments, she would come and cover the kids at an extra cost so that she could get to know them. My sibling doula was amazing. She was with my kids. I said to my husband, “Do you mind driving me? You can take calls while I am in my appointments.” So he would drive me to the hospital, and just in case, we took our bags everywhere except, and that's a tip that I actually wanted to write down to tell people, except my colostrum which I'll address in a second. We took the bags with us. I had my acupuncture in the morning and then I had my chiropractor appointment so I'm super aligned. I go to my OB appointment. I'm 39+3. He's like, “Well, you're in labor. You're 6 centimeters dilated. Go to the hospital right now.” He's like, “I'm going to break your water.” To me, those were such trigger words. I didn't because I felt like my baby got stuck the first time. I listened to an episode that you had earlier on at some point and you had a side note about never letting someone break your water until they check the baby's positioning. Meagan: Yes. It's a check mark that you have to check, where are we feeling? What is this position? Where are we at? If it happens spontaneously, it happens spontaneously which was done for you the second time, but the first time, it was maybe a fore bag. Olga: Exactly. Meagan: And then they broke your main bag, but it is. It is so important to cool it and wait. Olga: Totally and I think something you said, it's like a lubricant for your body. You need that liquid to be able to have the baby get into the best position possible. So I was really not into the idea of breaking the water. I walked around. I called my doula. He just said, “Go to the hospital. Call them.” I did take about an hour to decide to go to the hospital. I didn't even though this doctor who already delivered my baby, I still just wanted to check in with myself to see if I was comfortable. At the end of the day, here's what I arrived at. It's not the right decision for everybody, but for me, it was the right decision to go to the hospital because my other two babies, which was my biggest fear– I actually did a fear release as well two days before. There's a technique that you guys shared on YouTube. There's a YouTube video. My biggest fear was not taking care of my other girls because they were so young. I had a whole tree of neighbors that were going to come in until the sibling doula comes in and all of those things. Dr. Brock did say. He said, “Your baby is -1 and already 6 centimeters positioned.” He's like, “I'm not going to make it to the hospital.” I was like, “What if I get a hotel room across the street?” He's like, “You are not going to make it to the hospital. The baby is low.” So I decided that for me, for my well-being of being in the right mental space, this is the right time because my baby's are taken care of. There is a sibling doula right there. We went to the hospital. He took his time to come in too which I loved. He gave my body natural time to progress. I requested a pump right away. I was walking. I was bouncing on the ball. I was pumping, trying to get the labor started naturally because there were no contractions still which was really frustrating to me because again, I wanted no interventions. So here we are. He comes in and I'm like, “Dr. Brock, give me the answers to two questions. Number one, what is baby's positioning?” He checks it. It was LOA. It was the most perfect position. And number two, I said, “If you break my water, and my labor doesn't start,” because remember with my second, when my water broke, it took almost 24 hours to labor. I was like, “I do not want to feel rushed. I also want to have the chance to leave the hospital if I want to go home and labor at home.” He said, “I guarantee you.” I already knew his word is right because he delivered my other baby. He's like, “I can guarantee you that you can leave the hospital. I can guarantee you that there are no interventions that we will implement,” because I also did not want Pitocin at all. So I let him break my water and literally, things start within seconds. I think he broke my water and an hour and a half later, my baby was there. Right away, maybe 20 minutes later, I was like, “I have to poop,” and he was there. He's like, “Do not let her go to the bathroom!” He checks me and I was already 8 at that time. It went pretty fast from 6 to 8 to 10 again. My doula was on the way. This time, my husband and I were such a team. I feel like the first time, we were both so scared. We just didn't know and we didn't feel as comfortable. This time, we were swaying together. I just feel so appreciative of the moments we shared just the two of us. My doctor comes in. He's like, “Okay, it's time to bring this baby to the world. Get on your back.” I'm like, “No, can I please have a few more contractions standing up?” He's like, “Eventually, you'll have to get in bed.” I was like, “Okay,” because I trust my doctor, but I was disappointed for sure. I probably would have loved to be standing, but once I got in bed and laid down, I actually did feel better. I did enjoy delivering in that position until the last second. I laid down and had about four pushes. I kept saying to myself, “I'm going to be huge.” I did want to make a joke to my doctor. I'm like, “Is this too late for an epidural?” but I didn't say it because you're kind of in a different world. You're almost in your own little world. I delivered my baby boy without any medication and I have to say that the recovery, even with the epidural for pushing, the recovery with unmedicated birth is the most surreal thing on the planet. With breech, so many people ran in right away to check her because one thing that people might not know about breech is that when baby is coming down, there is always poop, the meconium from the baby. My doctor was telling the nurse, “This is normal. You don't need to freak out.” I think that with head-down babies, they are worried about meconium being in the water. With breech babies, it is always in because they are pushing in the stomach as the butt comes out. Here, they left us alone for two hours. I was telling Dr. Brock. I'm like, “How big is the baby?” He's like, “Well, you can't have it all. We haven't even weighed him. I don't know how big he is.” He ended up being 8 pounds, 2 ounces. Which, they did. For two hours, nobody bothered us. We were just in this peaceful moment with my husband and me. It came full circle from all the interventions and everybody there and not having a moment to ourselves to just being there by ourselves the three of us and having this most incredible, peaceful experience. It was really something. I really wish for everybody to experience that. The recovery, again, I was ready to go hiking that afternoon. It was so different. I think I did push myself a little too much right away primarily because I have two little, young kids. It's good to also let yourself recover, but it was also so, so, so special to have this. Sorry, one last thing that I will say is that breastfeeding was really important to me. I had some challenges in the past, so I had an amazing lactation consultant who I saw at 37 weeks. I also took some breastfeeding classes, but she told me about expressing colostrum starting early on. After 37 weeks, it is safe because baby is sort of technically full-term. I brought this colostrum that I froze starting at 37 weeks. The other thing is– the lactation consultant didn't say this, but we know that nipple stimulation is a good thing. Meagan: It's an inducer. Olga: It's an inducer, exactly. So every day, and ti was amazing for my kids to see me do things with my breast without the baby there so they weren't hating on the baby for taking my attention away. I would just sit there in the playroom with them while they would play and I would say to them, “This is how mommy will feed the baby.” I would express colostrum. I froze so much colostrum. Every day, I honestly wish I did more of it because as you deliver this baby, there's no milk yet, you can take that day to recover and sleep if your partner is there. My baby had jaundice so we had to have him under lights. The nurses would take him, but I was able to give him colostrum. With jaundice, it's very important that they eat a lot. I didn't have to give him any formula because they had so much colostrum. I just highly, highly recommend it. My sister was able to go back. As I said, we didn't take it with us. She and her boyfriend went back and brought it to the hospital frozen. Check with your hospital policies. Ours allowed. Cedars allowed you to bring it. It was so great because it allowed my body to rest for the first 24 hours, my baby to get a lot of colostrum, and I didn't have the pressure of immediately breastfeeding or all of those things because I had it frozen. And I think the breast stimulation actually helped my body dilate to 6 centimeters by the time I was 39 weeks which I think was obviously awesome. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Olga: That's it. That's my story. I have three amazing kids. They make me the person I am and I'm just so grateful to them for choosing me to be their mommy. Meagan: Being a mom really is amazing. I love all of your stories. You had a Cesarean, medicated breech, and unmedicated. Each one morphed you into this person and this parent that you are today. First of all, congratulations on all of your babies and thank you for sharing. Just along the way, I wanted to give a little bullet point of things to remind people of. I'm sure this podcast will be one of those saved episodes for the future. But some really cool things that you brought up is the sibling doula. I have been a doula for people and they have had sibling doulas and it is amazing. It's absolutely amazing. It brings so much comfort because when you feel like you have to be mom, it's really hard to be in labor world and to be doing that. I love that you had a sibling doula. I love that we talked about breaking waters. It's something that I am passionate about and I think it's because although they didn't break my water, it broke spontaneously, but I had poorly positioned babies and a lack of knowledge of getting baby in a better position. So if you're not checking the box of, “Hey, my contraction pattern is good. I'm close. I have good head compression. My baby is in a good spot,” it may not be the most ideal thing to do. And then sometimes you do. You break your water and it's a game changer and that is the best thing for you. So I loved that you talked about that. I loved that you talked about not preparing and then preparing. And I loved so much that in the end of your pregnancy with your second that you went into this space called the bubble. We go into our bubble and we get rid of all of the negativity, all of the hate, all of the news, and stuff that's going to stress us out and all of that. I personally had to do that unfortunately with my mom. That was really, really difficult and it's really hard to do that to someone that you love, but unfortunately, she was bringing negativity into my space. Remember to protect your space. Those people love you. They're not going to hate you. They're not going to never talk to you again, but it's okay to turn social media off, turn text messages off and go into that space because if you can enter that space in that really amazing, powerful zone, it can make all the world of a difference. You educated. You listened to the podcast. So many amazing things. So, thank you so much for sharing with us today and I'm so happy that this one is kicking off the holiday season for us. Olga: I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for doing this and starting The VBAC Link. It just is such an incredible resource and I would definitely not have had the birth I had if it wasn't for you guys. Meagan: Oh, well thank you so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Postpartum Series: The Fourth Trimester - A Mental Health Revolution Begins in Infancy with Greer Kirshenbaum Ph.D.

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 1, 2022 25:11

Greer Kirshenbaum Ph.D. is super excited to be the first Neuroscientist Doula and the first Neuroscientist Infant Sleep Educator. Greer's company, Nurture Neuroscience, is on a mission to revolutionize the future of health. She wants families and perinatal practitioners to understand how early caregiving experience can boost mental wellness and diminish depression, anxiety, and addiction in adulthood by shaping babies' brains through simple, intuitive, enriching experiences in pregnancy, birth and infancy. Greer teaches courses, provides consultations for pregnancy and infancy, and is a birth and postpartum doula. She is currently creating an Infant Sleep Educator course with Bebo Mia. When you understand that how you respond to your baby's cries affects their long-term mental health, you may pick up your baby more. This episode explores how early caregiver and child bonding influences brain development. The science behind parenting is FASCINATING. In this episode, you'll hear about: Greer's attraction to neuroscience How your early life experience impacts your mental health 3 ways you can support your baby's lifelong mental health Prenatal bonding How the caregiver and child relationship benefits lifelong mental health Serve and Return communication method Conscious Discipline Sleep Keep doing your best You're a BIG influence in the development of your baby's brain and nervous system. Ditch the fear of, "Am I parenting right?" Instead, do great things for the sake of being a positive force. Absorb as much of Greer's Instagram posts as you can. Find her at: Instagram - @nurture_neuroscience_parenting Facebook - @NurtureNeuroscience Website - www.nurtureneuro.com

mental health serve ditch postpartum fascinating prenatal absorb infancy fourth trimester health revolution kirshenbaum bebo mia

Episode 454: I Bet 4 Hours Of Sleep Is Plenty (Cough), with Meg Kant

One Bad Mother

Play Episode Listen Later May 13, 2022 69:09

Babies make for interesting bedfellows, but can you safely sleep and bedshare? Meg Kant from Bebo Mia thinks so! Meg sits down with Biz to talk birth journeys around the world, voluptuous cats, and how much sleep you really need. Plus, Biz did an experiment.Visit BeboMia.com for courses and workshops, and use code OBM15 to get 15% off! Follow Bebo Mia on Facebook @bebomianic, Instagram @bebomiainc, and Twitter @bebomia.Check out Theresa's book! It Feels Good To Be Yourself is available now wherever books are sold. Our book You're Doing A Great Job!: 100 Ways You're Winning at Parenting! is available wherever books are sold.Thank you to all our listeners who support the show as monthly members of MaximumFun.org. This week, we're sponsored by Bombas and KiwiCo. Go to Bombas.com/BADMOTHER to get 20% off your first purchase. Use code BADMOTHER at KiwiCo.com to get 30% off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line.Thank you to all our listeners who support the show as monthly members of MaximumFun.org.Be sure to tell us at the top of your message whether you're leaving a genius moment, a fail, or a rant! Thanks!!Share a personal or commercial message on the show! Details at MaximumFun.org/Jumbotron.Subscribe to One Bad Mother in Apple PodcastsJoin our mailing listJoin the amazing community that is our private One Bad Mother Facebook groupFollow One Bad Mother on TwitterFollow Biz on TwitterFollow Theresa on TwitterLike us on Facebook!Get a OBM tee, tank, baby onesie, magnet or bumper sticker from the MaxFunStoreYou can suggest a topic or a guest for an upcoming show by sending an email to onebadmother@maximumfun.org.Show MusicSummon the Rawk, Kevin MacLeod (www.incompetech.com)Ones and Zeros, Awesome, Beehive SessionsMom Song, Adira Amram, Hot Jams For TeensTelephone, Awesome, Beehive SessionsMama Blues, Cornbread Ted and the ButterbeansMental Health Resources:Therapy for Black Girls – Therapyforblackgirls.comDr. Jessica Clemmens – https://www.askdrjess.comBLH Foundation – borislhensonfoundation.orgThe Postpartum Support International Warmline - 1-800-944-4773 (1-800-944-4PPD)The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) Helpline - 1-800-662-4357 (1-800-662-HELP)Suicide Prevention Hotline: Call or chat. They are here to help anyone in crisis. https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org and number 1-800-273-8255 and there is a chat option on the website.Crisis Text Line: Text from anywhere in the USA (also Canada and the UK) to text with a trained counselor. A real human being.USA text 741741Canada text 686868UK text 85258Website: https://www.crisistextline.orgNational Sexual Assault: Call 800.656.HOPE (4673) to be connected with a trained staff member from a sexual assault service provider in your area.https://www.rainn.orgNational Domestic Violence Hotline: https://www.thehotline.org/help/Our advocates are available 24/7 at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) in more than 200 languages. All calls are free and confidential.They suggest that if you are a victim and cannot seek help, ask a friend or family member to call for you.Teletherapy Search: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/online-counseling

united states canada children father babies kids uk sleep parenting winning safe dad mom motherhood parent daddy fatherhood kevin macleod parenthood doula kant biz cough bombas doulas zeros comdr obm jumbotron maximum fun kiwico rawk one bad mother bedsharing bebo mia biz ellis crisis text line text adira amram doing a great job

S2E6: The Kohl Chronicles with Kayla

Our Messy Collective

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 15, 2021 70:50

Join us this week as Carey sits down with Kayla from The Kohl Chronicles to discuss infertility, loss, parenting, and everything in between. Kayla lives and works in Omaha, Nebraska with her husband, two cats, and dog. She is passionate about supporting others with their fertility journey and breaking the stigma around infertility and loss. She graduated with a B.S. in Elementary Education, and a Deaf studies minor. She is a certified Postpartum and Infant Care Doula through ProDoula. She is also a certified Reproductive Health Doula with the Child Birth Institute, and is working on her Fertility Support Specialist certification with Bebo Mia. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ourmessycollective/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/ourmessycollective/support

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7. Carolina Saldarriaga | @SonTusReglas + @SintotermicasEnRed (SER) | Network of Latin American Educators for the Symptothermal Method

Fertility Awareness Project

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 7, 2020 58:05

Loving the podcast? rate + review the pod on Apple Podcasts subscribe to the show on your fave podcast app show a friend how to subscribe Connect with us! Megan McNamara: Instagram @FAMtasticfertility Youtube: FAMtastic Fertility Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/famtasticfertility Natalie Daudet: Instagram @fertilityawarenessproject Website: https://fertilityawarenessproject.ca/ Did you know you can become a direct supporter of Body Literacy Babes? Your support of this podcast via a small monthly donation helps sustain future episodes. Head over to our support page to get started. ( https://anchor.fm/bodyliteracybabes/support ) We're deeply grateful for your support and it allows us to continue this work - thank you! We want to hear from you! Email your stories to bodyliteracybabes@gmail.com and please include "listener story" + your topic in the subject line so we can search for them more easily. Boundary: we cannot offer specific charting advice to those who are not our clients. Thank you! body literacy, for everyone, forever -- Carolina Saldarriaga is from Colombia and has lived in Boquete, Panama since 2015. She studied Political Science and Journalism and always dreamed of working towards improving women and girl's lives. She is now a Fertility Awareness Instructor, certified by FEMM, and is currently training to be a Fertility Support Specialist with Bebo Mia. She teaches the Sympto-thermal method online to women and couples of all kinds who are looking for an effective, modern, and natural way of preventing or achieving pregnancy while they dig deep into the wonders and magic of their menstrual cycle and understand its importance in their general health and wellbeing. Want to work with Carolina? Learn more: Sign up for her online learning group waitlist (next round in September 2020) www.tusreglas.com Instagram @sontusreglas -- Sintotermicas en Red (SER) is a network created by seven certified FABM instructors from Latin America with the common purpose of making Fertility Awareness more readily available in Spanish, connecting students with qualified instructors and promoting FAM as reliable, modern birth control option and a unique tool for body literacy and health advocacy. https://www.sintotermicasenred.com/ Instagram @sintotermicasenred Facebook @sintotermicasenred

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19. Bebo Mia Inc. & Entrepreneurship for Birth Workers

Thriving Birth Worker Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 24, 2020 53:05

Hello friends! How are you? If you’re listening to this episode later, it’s airing end of March 2020, right in the middle of this CORVID-19 Coronavirus pandemic. I live in Oregon where we are currently under a stay at home order, but we’ve been self quarantined for a couple of weeks already with plenty more ahead of us. Life feels turned upside down, and yet we’re healthy and have a comfortable home and food and toilet paper and feel blessed while still in the middle of dealing with everything. It is currently manifesting in my body by tension in my jaw and neck. I’m a jaw clencher when stress is looking for a physical way to manifest it self, so I’m working on paying attention to those areas of my body. How is your body? How is your mind? How is your business? We’re in the middle of a thriving business series on the podcast, and I feel mixed emotions about that timing of it. I plan out, and record these episodes often months in advance. I’m a planner and I like to have my little pile of prerecorded episodes so I don’t feel extra pressure or feel like I’m trying to beat a deadline. Because of that, this episode and several other episodes were recorded before this virus hit, so we don’t acknowledge this crazy real factor in the episode because it hadn’t been a reality yet. I’m continuing with these episodes because of several reasons. We still have businesses, even amidst the craziness that is our lives right now. We still need to pay our bills and attempt to to serve our clients which now seems so very complicated. I would say that we need business coaching, encouragement and community more than ever.

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Infertility III: A Conversation with Natasha Marchand of Bebo Mia

Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 23, 2019 25:00

In this episode, I continue the conversation from previous episodes about the language surrounding infertility. Natasha Marchand, co-founder of Bebo Mia, discusses the unique situations of would-be expectant parents facing infertility, and what helpful and non-helpful language looks like. TRANSCRIPT: Sara Pixton: Welcome to today's episode. Before we jump in, I just want to say if you have listened to the podcast before and you are loving it, please leave a review on your podcast app, so more people can find out about Birth Words and be touched by the things that we're talking about here. And now for today's episode. Natasha has been working with women to support their wellness goals for over a decade. She is a doula trainer, a hypnotherapist, prenatal fitness and yoga instructor, and a fertility specialist. As the co-founder of Bebo Mia and co-owner of Baby and Me Fitness, she loves helping women feel stronger and more confident in their lives, whether that is in their birth business, or as they move fertility all the way to parenting. She is also the proud mother of seven-year-old Sadie, conceived with ART after a four-year struggle, and recently gave birth to her second daughter, Margo. Welcome Natasha, to the Birth Words podcast. Natasha Marchand: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Sara: I'm so excited to talk with you and for our listeners to gain your perspective. Do you want to give just a quick introduction of yourself and your business and what you're doing here on the podcast? Natasha: Sure. Well, my name is Natasha, like you said. I struggled myself with infertility for four years before having my first daughter and then six years later, had my second daughter so there's quite a bit of a gap. And so there was many years where I struggled with infertility, but my background is in yoga and hypnotherapy, and obviously I'm a birth doula and of course to a trainer as well. So I use a lot of that to create programming for people who are struggling with infertility, because I felt like it was not only a professional thing for me but also really personal. And Bebo Mia itself as a doula training organization, or a training organization that works with birth workers who want to become doulas, for example, or perhaps work in the world of infertility or fertility as a fertility doula, which is something that's new and happening right now as awareness for infertility moves forward. Sara: I love that. And one of the reasons I reached out to you specifically is because I saw that fertility doula training program on your website, and that really struck me. Like you said, it's not something that I'm really familiar with. I don't know any fertility doulas personally, but having had a small infertility journey of my own—Wow, I wish I had a doula there to guide me through it! Because It can be so difficult to navigate. So I'm so glad you have that going. Natasha: Yeah, I didn’t have a fertility doula myself either. But because I was a doula at the time—I was a doula for many years before I had children of my own—so when I learned that this was going to be a struggle for me when I was figuring that out, I just started applying my work as a doula into my own life. And then recognizing that there were so many other people out there who didn't have support, who were doing this on their own or in silence, or in shame even. And so I started that to apply that into group work and into other people until eventually it just became my work as a fertility doula. Sara: I love it. That's awesome. I am so excited to pick your brain a little bit here today. So I have some questions for you. The first one is: What unique challenges do would-be expectant parents meet when they first come face to face with fertility struggles? Natasaha: I, you know, I can speak to my own experience and I can also speak to the experience of other people that I've witnessed. But the biggest thing is that realization that, you know, the idea of having children goes from that, like, when will I have children? to IF I'll have children. That's such a shift in everybody's mind frame. You know, you kind of grow up thinking okay, I'll do what everyone tells me I have to do you know, I'll go to college, I'll meet somebody, we’ll have a family, we’ll buy a house… all of those things will happen. And then suddenly, your expectations aren't meeting reality anymore, and that just kind of like flips everything on its side. Especially if you're someone like me who's like, I'm a planner. Like, I was like, yep, I turned 30, I'll have my kids, I’ll do… You know? I had it all planned out. And then suddenly it's like, will I even have kids? And if I don't—Who am I? Yeah, you know? Sara: Yeah. And this episode I wanted to build on Episode number seven. I talked about my infertility journey and some research that I've come across. That goes a lot along with what you're saying of this idea of a reproductive story, that some people have it more consciously. Some people, it's more subconscious, but it totally disrupts that when you're faced with like, not when but if, and just it's a really challenging journey. Natasha: Yeah. And it's, it really is what is this thing about me? You know, because like when you talk about language and you talk about infertility, like there's still really is this… It's not even unspoken, it's this value that's placed on women, in particular, to have children. Like that's part of our value. Like who are we, if we can’t have children. And now that that conversation is changing, but there still is these words that are used for people who don't have children, you know, like we hear it all the time. Like you're selfish or you'll change your mind, or you're too self-absorbed, or like all of this language that goes around, you know, choosing to not have children. Yeah. Sara: Especially difficult when… Natasha: There’s so much language around that. Yeah, like, Is there something I did wrong? Am I being punished? there's something wrong with me. So like, you can't really, you can't win, right? Because our value is so intertwined as women in particular, to having children. And that’s something we learn so early on, as young girls. Sara: Yeah, all of this discourse that just surrounds us as we go. And then facing like, Oh, is that… Is that what I want for myself? Is that possible? with the infertility struggle, right? And you said, Am I doing something wrong? And I mentioned to you and now to our listeners that this episode is also building on a previous episode with Margaret Quinlan, who's a professor of Communications, who wrote… You're Doing it Wrong is the name of her book, because that's what people feel a lot from just the common rhetoric around pregnancy and motherhood and fertility. And that's a really, really difficult thing to be told either explicitly or implicitly and a really difficult thing to feel. Natasha: Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are so many people out there who think that by giving advice, they're trying to help you, or they are helping you, because they do think that there’s something you're doing wrong, you know? Are you putting your legs up on the wall for 30 minutes after you have intercourse? No, Aunt Edna, I'm not. Like what? Like, you know, there's just so much. As soon as you say… as soon as you're brave enough to say that this is something you're struggling with, that's when you get all of this information that is not helping you at all. Really, it is just telling you what you said you're doing it wrong. And… these days. Are you relaxed enough? Are you going on vacation? Are you taking time for yourself? All of that is just blaming. Sara: And that's so difficult when you said like, it's so vulnerable to open up and say, Hey, this is something that I'm struggling with, and then to be hit with all of that does not honor the vulnerability, right? Natasha: That's right. And I if, if there was anything I wish I could do to change the language in this space, or to change the culture, in this space is to, to really have people understand how to best support somebody going through infertility. And like to explain that, quite often this unsolicited advice is not really welcome. You know, and even as, as birth professionals like we are, this can be a hard line for us because we want to believe in hope and to give people hope. And we can try it on this fine line where it's like, you know, if you do this, then you'll get pregnant, the same way often birth professionals can make that mistake of saying, if you have a birth plan, and if you give birth with this health care provider, and if you give birth at home or whatever, you know, your plan is, then you'll have the birth that you want. But really, that's, you know, we don't want to give people false hope, with infertility. You can do all of this thing, you can do everything. You can put your legs on the wall, you can go on vacation, you can do IVF. And still at the end of the day, not have a baby. Right? So we have to be really careful and mindful of our language and not offer this hope. Or it's like, oh, well, if you just did this, this would happen. Yeah. Sara: So what can we do? We're wanting to support people struggling with infertility. We know a lot of the things we shouldn't say. We know why… we've talked about why it matters, the way that we talk. You can add more thoughts about that if you want, but what do we do? What do we say what is helpful? Natasha: You know, I think being there for somebody and telling somebody that you're there for them is the most important thing we can do. Allowing them to be seen by you and allowing them the space to be vulnerable and, and validating the pain that they're going through is more important than anything else. Because that's what's not happening for them right now is they're saying that they're struggling, they're going through infertility. And what is coming back at them is usually something in between ‘you're doing it wrong’ or ‘it's really not that bad.’ I have a friend who has been struggling for four years or, you know, it's hovering somewhere in between that there. So what we need to do as healthcare practitioners is be okay with sitting in this uncomfortable space. Of this is just—can I swear?—this is just shitty. And that's what it is. And I am here to witness that with you and allow you to say how shitty this is to me. Sara: And friends and family. Oh, sorry, I jumped in before you were done. And you said, like as professionals, but also like as friends and family, too, we've got a mixed listenership on this podcast. And I think that that applies to both. Would you agree? Natasha: Absolutely agree. It applies. I agree. Yeah, that's right. There needs to be a shift in the way that we treat people going through infertility, because we don't talk the same way with people who have just been injured. You know? We don't talk to the same way who maybe just had a cancer diagnosis. We… this is a very special way that we talked to people who are going through infertility: we try to minimize it, or we try to be helpful, but we say the wrong things. Or we… there's not a recognition of how hard this really is. You know, just the little things that which I've heard, I'm sure you've heard before is like, once you realize it's going to be a struggle for you to have children, if that's something you truly desire to do, even things like getting a baby shower invitation in the mail is really hard. It can put you on the ground for, you know, days or weeks. And a lot of people don't understand that. They don't understand why you wouldn't show up. There really is not the validation around how painful this really is, how it leads to depression, how the stress rates are high for people who are going through infertility as people who are going through cancer treatments. There's not a recognition around that. It really is like, you know, ‘it will happen when it happens,’ or you know, ‘maybe it's not your time.’ There's such a minimization of the struggle that somebody is going through. Anyway, I get it. You can't really understand it until you've gone through it. But I'd love to see the culture change. Sara: Yeah, me too. I think those are really powerful thoughts. And I think I'm… Once you have gone through it, too, there's also this temptation to like, use it as your chance to be like, “Oh, I know, it's hard because let me tell you about how hard it was for me,” which is also not a helpful response. Right? And if we're truly validating someone else's grief, we're not in platforming to, like, jump into our own, right? Natasha: Yes. As professionals, I find that's a hard line to walk regardless of if you're a fertility doula or a birth doula, right, because our own experiences shape what we think is good, you know, what, what we think are good decisions. And, and that's just human nature, but our job is to come at things in an unbiased way. And so when we're working with infertility, you know, as a professional, we're not really able to say, you know, well for me, this works and so it should work for you. It really still…we have to really come back to being like, here's all the information, what decision do you want to make? And also support you through that? Sara: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. Another question for you. So how can those dealing with infertility harness the power of our words to help them in their journey? Natasha: One of the big things that I do in my work as a fertility doula is, is to look at the language we're using with ourselves now, and so for many of us, well for me, when I first began this journey of infertility, it was really like I was really down on myself, I really questioned my lifestyle, I really question things I had done in my past, I had a lot of negative self-talk. And, and I knew better because this is what I do for a living. And so I had to work really hard to fix that. And I'm not trying to say that everything we have to say is positive. And when it comes to fertility, like I said, I don't want to be giving false hope. I don't want to give people you know, thoughts…try to put thoughts in people's heads that are like, ‘I will for sure have a baby’ or, you know, ‘close your eyes and imagine your baby.’ That can be so hard and triggering for somebody who's going through infertility. So let's work on our thought process in not in a way that's like positive or nothing. But in a way that's like, how can we reframe this so it feels healthier in our in our bodies? So we're not hurting ourselves and causing ourselves harm as we go through this. Like we're not making it worse. And so what we do a lot of the times is come up with balanced statements. So statements that feel true, or can stop that negative cycle that causes us like a downward spiral each day, you know, like when you wake up your ‘I'll never have a kid’ and, you know, ‘why? Why would I get up off the floor right now?’ Like all those…that kind of language that spirals and changes your actions throughout the day? Like how can we create a kinder and more gentle thing that you can say in the morning? You know, so, rather than saying, ‘I'll never have children,’ we don't go right to positive and say, ‘I will have children’ and wake up and expect that that's going to be the outcome. But how can we say, ‘you know what, today is the day that I'm going to practice my breathing techniques,’ or work a little bit more on myself, or you know, spend the day, you know, whatever it is. I really do sit down and spend a lot of time with my clients to figure out what wording would work best for them to be gentler to themselves, so the day doesn't feel as hard. Yeah, you know, what, what can you be doing each and every day to make this journey better? And how can we implant that language into our subconscious rather than what was fed to us? Sara: I love all of your thoughts about that. And because I feel similarly with just my goal with this podcast and the other work that I do with Birth Words, the goal is not to be like, only positive talk, because sometimes there's some really negative stuff that already exists that you have to work through. But I like how you said, Let's reframe this, so it feels healthy in your body. And I think that reframing is critical. Natasha: Yeah. And it's really like when I sit with my clients, and I do this work, there are questions that I asked, you know, if your negative self-thought is ‘I'll never have children, I'll never have children.’ You say that over and over again in your head. Okay, so, just what about that statement is true? You know, have you been told that you'll never have children? Are all paths towards having children closed to you? What are you willing to do to have children? You know, like really start dissecting where that negative thought comes from. Who told you that if you never have children, you're not a good woman, you know, or good person? You know, where are these thoughts coming from so that we can look at it and be like, Oh, that statement’s not really true. What is true is that I'm, I'm trying this avenue right now, and I'm giving it my best shot. And if this doesn't work, I'm willing to try another avenue. That sounds better, right? Sara: And you sound so much more like an agent, making choices, being thoughtful about, ‘these are my options and this is the path that I can pursue,’ instead of being like this passive recipient of your fate, right? Natasha: That's right. That's right. And putting some control into that because there is obviously the sense of a loss of control. Right? When you have when you have a plan and that plan is not happening for you. Sara: K, I love, I so appreciate our conversation. I'm going to wrap it up with two quick questions here. The first one is, if you had to describe in one word, your feelings or beliefs about the fertility journey, what one word would you choose? Natasha: The fertility journey or mine? Sara: However you want to interpret it, and if you need to throw out a few we can, we can work with that. Natasha: I wouldn't label it as… you know, it did change. But the beginning when I was just hearing about this and learning what a struggle it was going to be for me, I would have called it suffering. Sara: Okay. And I love the thoughts that you've shared to help, again reframe that, to make it feel less like suffering, but also the earlier thoughts you shared about having other people recognize, this feels like intense suffering. I think that's, that's really fitting. Natasha: Yeah. And it really was, I was gonna say it really was the, the getting out of that thought process and say, What can I do with this information now that I have it? How can I pull parts of my life to make a change to make this better? I feel very fortunate that I was already kind of in this birth world when I encountered this, because I was able to pull things together and create out of it, which really lifted me out of that suffering place. But not only that, it led me to find other people who were going through it. So I could say I'm suffering and they could say back to me, I'm suffering too. And that's still so much. Just being able to create that in my world was so important. Sara: Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom. How can we connect with you? Follow you personally or Bebo Mia, or whatever you want to throw out there. Natasha: Sure, you can visit us at bebomia.com. We also have a blog post on this that comes with like a really large ebook just on how we can best support our clients who are going through infertility or who are now pregnant after infertility. So you can go to bebomia.com/birthwords. And that will be up for anybody who ever wants to see it. And if anybody ever wanted to join any of our programs, we have a BIRTHWORDS code for 15% off anything you'd ever want to join us with and become part of our community. Sara: Love it. Thank you so much for your generosity and go head over to their website. Check it out. They have so many resources for birth professionals and really are doing something dynamic and new with the way that they're approaching all of it, so go check it out. It's worth it. Natasha: Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to be on the podcast. Sara: It was so great to have you. Thanks so much, Natasha. Natasha: Thank you. Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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How to Become a Midwife: 11/25/19 Cultural Competency with a side of Cervical Scar Tissue

Preggers Can Be Choosers

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 11, 2019 104:00

How to Become a Midwife: 11/25/19 Cultural Competency with a side of Cervical Scar Tissue My fellow newbie Houston midwife Malea and I chat out competency for different cultures interspersed with Cervical Scar Tissue remediation thoughts. So here you go! A list of what we chatted about as we went through the video (video version found on Youtube) Also, I don't know what happened here but my language is salty as a sailor, so if that's not for you just peruse the links. Preggers Can Be Choosers www.preggers.rocks The Addices http://theaddice.com/ Bay Area Community Birth center https://bayareacommunitybirthcenter.com/ The Birthing Place http://www.thebirthingplace.com/ North Houston Birth Center https://www.nhbirth.com/ Far from the tree book https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743236726/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_JjS6Db0HDZZ4B and movie https://www.ifcfilms.com/films/far-from-the-tree Mis Gendering ~ https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/misgendering AABC ~ https://www.birthcenters.org/ Pati Garcia ~https://www.instagram.com/pati.sexbod.midwife/ Jessica G ~ https://villagebirthworks.com/ Polycule ~ http://polyliving.net/forum/index.php?topic=105.0 Three courses for competency www.BeboMia.com www.MaiaMidwifery.com www.BiffadI.com Scar tissue class ~https://coursecraft.net/c/HowtoHealYourScars/splash Ellen Heed ~ https://www.scartissueremediation.com/ Hamms ~ student group https://www.facebook.com/groups/391517324826422/ Malea on IG https://www.instagram.com/birthingbeginnings/ As always, you can find us at www.Preggers.rocks in Houston Texas. Alert ~ Be wary, we are a little sweary. Get your earbuds if you are concerned about tender ears and sensibilities. #houston #love #preggerscanbechoosers #massage #thisiswhathealinglookslike #AfterBirth #4thtrimester #mayaabdominalmassage #mayanabdominalmassage #abdominalmassage #elephantinthewomb #prenatal #cervicalscartissue #culturalcompetencey #privilege --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pcbc/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/pcbc/support

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36: Reconnecting With Your Vagina After Childbirth (Giving Birth with Toni Botas & Bianca Sprague)

The Dopist

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2019 49:56

PARENTING & CANNABIS I - After a traumatic experience like childbirth, a woman's relationship with her vagina needs to be healed not only physically, but spiritually and emotionally. But where is one to begin healing in a system that is still so broken? Bianca Sprague and Toni Botas of Bebo Mia hold nothing back when discussing the truth about giving birth, postpartum depression, discrimination against women of color, and what role cannabis plays in the healing process. And that's what it is, isn't it? A process - on The Dopist with Nicolle Hodges.The Dopist is a weekly podcast that puts cannabis at the center of deep dialogue with experts, to help you navigate this new industry—and beyond. Host Nicolle Hodges brings on guests each week to dissect the world of cannabis. Follow @thedopist on Instagram, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.Brought to you by WDBXProduced by VoiceMagic

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Raising Sex Positive Kids and Consent Culture with Nadine Thornhill

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 21, 2019 73:58

Today on the show Nadine Thornhill, sex educator and co-host of Sex Ed School, to talk about raising sex positive kids, teaching consent, virginity and so much more. On Nov. 29, 2019 get 40% off all Bebo Mia courses, including payment plans and bundles with code BLACKFRIDAY! Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

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Episode 93: Thin Privilege and Weight Stigma in Pregnancy

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 12, 2019 17:48

Intro On today's episode, Jessie and Anita talk about how societal and medical weight stigma affect the health and wellbeing of pregnant humans. --- If you liked this episode of To Birth and Beyond, tell your friends! Find us on iTunes and Stitcher to rate/review/subscribe to the show. Want more? Visit www.ToBirthAndBeyond.com, join our Facebook group (To Birth and Beyond Podcast), and follow us on Instagram @tobirthandbeyondpodcast! Thanks for listening and joining the conversation! Resources and References TBAB ep 50 on Plus Size Pregnancy: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2019/01/22/Podcast---Plus-Size-Pregnancy-with-Bebo-Mia Time Stamps2:58 - Today we are talking about thin privilege in pregnancy, and we are going to do our best to offer as much perspective as we possibly can in this conversation. We recognize we are limited!3:50 - What IS “thin privilege”?5:15 - It's time to consider/review your thoughts/assumptions of people in fat bodies!6:06 - Jessie and Anita discuss how they were treated/commented on in smaller bodies during pregnancy.9:39 - Let's talk about this idea of being congratulated in pregnancy for what your body looks like.11:45 - For your consideration: If you see a smaller pregnant person vs. a larger pregnant person, would you give the same comment you are thinking to both? Which would you give it to?14:05 - Pregnant peoples' concern/stress around commentary on their pregnant bodies.15:08 - Medical care providers carry these weight and size stigmas with them as well!15:33 - What we really want to get across with this conversation (pssst - it's about inner work!)16:55 - Our challenge to you!

Episode 93: Thin Privilege and Weight Stigma in Pregnancy

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2019 17:48

Intro On today’s episode, Jessie and Anita talk about how societal and medical weight stigma affect the health and wellbeing of pregnant humans. --- If you liked this episode of To Birth and Beyond, tell your friends! Find us on iTunes and Stitcher to rate/review/subscribe to the show. Want more? Visit www.ToBirthAndBeyond.com, join our Facebook group (To Birth and Beyond Podcast), and follow us on Instagram @tobirthandbeyondpodcast! Thanks for listening and joining the conversation! Resources and References TBAB ep 50 on Plus Size Pregnancy: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2019/01/22/Podcast---Plus-Size-Pregnancy-with-Bebo-Mia Time Stamps2:58 - Today we are talking about thin privilege in pregnancy, and we are going to do our best to offer as much perspective as we possibly can in this conversation. We recognize we are limited!3:50 - What IS “thin privilege”?5:15 - It’s time to consider/review your thoughts/assumptions of people in fat bodies!6:06 - Jessie and Anita discuss how they were treated/commented on in smaller bodies during pregnancy.9:39 - Let’s talk about this idea of being congratulated in pregnancy for what your body looks like.11:45 - For your consideration: If you see a smaller pregnant person vs. a larger pregnant person, would you give the same comment you are thinking to both? Which would you give it to?14:05 - Pregnant peoples’ concern/stress around commentary on their pregnant bodies.15:08 - Medical care providers carry these weight and size stigmas with them as well!15:33 - What we really want to get across with this conversation (pssst - it’s about inner work!)16:55 - Our challenge to you!

A Mental Health Revolution Begins in Infancy with Greer Kirshenbaum Ph.D.

Pure Nurture Pregnancy and Birth | A Holistic Approach

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 8, 2019 25:11

Greer Kirshenbaum Ph.D. is super excited to be the first Neuroscientist Doula and the first Neuroscientist Infant Sleep Educator. Greer’s company, Nurture Neuroscience, is on a mission to revolutionize the future of health. She wants families and perinatal practitioners to understand how early caregiving experience can boost mental wellness and diminish depression, anxiety, and addiction in adulthood by shaping babies’ brains through simple, intuitive, enriching experiences in pregnancy, birth and infancy. Greer teaches courses, provides consultations for pregnancy and infancy and is a birth and postpartum doula. She is currently creating an Infant Sleep Educator course with Bebo Mia. When you understand that how you respond to your baby's cries affects their longterm mental health, you may pick up your baby more. This episode explores how early caregiver and child bonding influences brain development. The science behind parenting is FASCINATING. In this episode, you’ll hear about: Greer's attraction to neuroscience How your early life experience impacts your mental health 3 ways you can support your baby’s lifelong mental health Prenatal bonding How the caregiver and child relationship benefits lifelong mental health Serve and Return communication method Conscious Discipline Sleep Keep doing your best You're a BIG influence in the development of your baby's brain and nervous system. Ditch the fear of, "Am I parenting right?" Instead do great things for the sake of being a positive force. Absorb as much of Greer's Instagram posts as you can. Find her at: Instagram - @nurture_neuroscience_parenting Facebook - @NurtureNeuroscience Website - www.nurtureneuro.com

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Special Guest Sophie Misouri Infant and Pregnancy Loss Death Doula

DRAGONFLY RADIO

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 8, 2019

Today we are joined by Sophie Misouri of Wild Oats Birth Services and her journey as a Infant and Pregnancy Loss Death Doula. Learn more >> http://wildoatsbirth.com From Sophie's website: "I’m Sophie Misouri, a bilingual Sudbury-based doula, the founder of Wild Oats – and a mom of two who understands firsthand how much of a game-changer doula support can be. Though I studied Psychology and Anthropologie (at Laurentian) and am a graduate of Collège Boréal’s Occupational and Physiotherapy Assistant Program, it was my own birth experience that inspired me to become a doula and start Wild Oats. With my first daughter Annabelle, who was born in 2016, I endured 26 hours of unpredictable and intense ‘back labour’. Out of exhaustion and desperation, I requested an epidural – and ended up pushing for two-and-a-half hours. The experience left me scarred – both physically and mentally. Determined to have a different experience the second time around, I sought the help of a doula when I became pregnant again. With her in my corner, I felt informed, supported and empowered– and ended up having an incredibly positive second birth experience in 2018. In addition to giving me another daughter – sweet Nina – that second pregnancy and birth experience changed the direction of my career and life’s work. I knew even before Nina was born that this was my calling and began the process of certifying (through Bebo Mia). The rest, as they say, is history."

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Resisting and rethinking colonialist ideas about menstruation with Taq Bhandal

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Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2019 45:49

Today on the show I'm talking to Taq Bhandal, founder of IM With Periods, about resisting and reframing colonialist ideas about menstruation. Use code BEBOFLOW for 15% off any Bebo Mia course registration. Full Shownotes Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

Post Birth Control Syndrome with Dr. Jolene Brighten

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Play Episode Listen Later May 24, 2019 72:41

This week on the show I'm talking to Dr. Jolene Brighten about how hormonal birth control can disrupt your health and wellness, and what to do about it. Use code BEBOFLOW for 15% off Bebo Mia's Diverse Families Course Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

Trauma and Your Menstrual Cycle with De'Nicea Hilton

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Play Episode Listen Later May 9, 2019 44:33

Today on the show I'm talking to De'Nicea Hilton, Holistic Period & Fertility Strategist and Doctor of Oriental Medicine certified in Oriental Medicine (ABORM), about how trauma, unprocessed emotions and stress affect the menstrual cycle. CW: Brief mentions of sexual assault/abuse, trauma Use code BEBOFLOW for 15% off Bebo Mia's Diverse Families Course Full Shownotes Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

Period taboo in the black community, reusable menstrual products and all our favourite conspiracy theories with A. Rochaun Meadows-Fernandez

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Play Episode Listen Later May 2, 2019 64:05

Today on the show I'm talking to A. Rochaun Meadows-Fernandez, a writer, speaker, and activist who is passionate about health, diversity, and equity. We discuss Rochaun's experience with menstruation, period taboo in the black community, using reusable menstrual products and how menstrual equity is widening the gap, and so many conspiracy theories! Use code BEBOFLOW for 15% off any Bebo Mia course, including Don't Doula It Yourselfmembership. Full Shownotes Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

Episode 60: BEST OF TBAB for Doula Week! Episode 24 Role of the Doula with Bebo Mia

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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2019 61:02

Best of TBAB Episode 24: Role of the Doula with Bebo Mia Today, we are talking with Bianca and Natasha, co-founders of bebo mia which offers training, mentorship, and community for your pregnancy, birth, and parenting biz! Together, we discuss everything related to doulas: from social justice work around reproductive health, to what a doula brings with them for during a birth, and why you may want to have a fertility doula and even a postpartum doula! --- If you liked this episode of To Birth and Beyond, tell your friends! Find us on iTunes and Stitcher to rate/review/subscribe to the show. Want more? Visit www.ToBirthAndBeyond.com, join our Facebook group (To Birth and Beyond Podcast), and follow us on Instagram @tobirthandbeyondpodcast! Thanks for listening and joining the conversation!

Episode 60: BEST OF TBAB for Doula Week! Episode 24 Role of the Doula with Bebo Mia

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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2019 61:02

Postpartum Depression with Amanda Munday

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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 21, 2019 67:53

Today on the show I'm talking to Amanda Munday, author of Day Nine: A postpartum depression memoir. CW: Postpartum depression, birth trauma, mental illness, suicide. Please take care of yourself accordingly. Use code BEBOFLOW for 15% off any Bebo Mia course, including Don't Doula It Yourself membership. Full Shownotes Heavy Flow: Breaking the Curse of Menstruation Subscribe to the Heavy Flow email list Follow @amandalaird on Instagram Heavy Flow is produced by: TK Matunda Music credit: Julia and Bradley of Home Studios Graphic design: Rachel Laird

Episode 56: In Depth on Birth Prep

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2019 74:30

In today's episode, Anita and Jessie go in-depth on how they prepared for birth: from strength training, to what they purchased, resources they hired, podcasts they listened to, and beyond! --- If you liked this episode of To Birth and Beyond, tell your friends! Find us on iTunes and Stitcher to rate/review/subscribe to the show. Want more? Visit www.ToBirthAndBeyond.com, join our Facebook group (To Birth and Beyond Podcast), and follow us on Instagram @tobirthandbeyondpodcast! Thanks for listening and joining the conversation! Resources and References Physical: TBAB Top 5 Exercise Tips for Pregnancy Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/top-five-pregnancy-exercise-tips/ TBAB Prepare your pelvic floor for birth Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/pelvic-floor-for-birth-2/ Spinning Babies Techniques: https://spinningbabies.com/learn-more/techniques/ Spinning babiesparent class video: https://spinningbabies.com/product/parent-class-digital-download/ Spinning babies daily essentials: https://spinningbabies.com/product/daily-essentials-digital-download/ TBAB Prenatal Yoga Episode with Deb Fleshenberg: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/prenatal-yoga-deb-flashenberg/ Perineal Massage video: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2017/07/22/Perineal-Massage---preparing-your-pelvic-floor-for-birth TBAB What is Pelvic Floor Physiotherapy? Episode http://tobirthandbeyond.com/pelvic-health-physio/ What is Prenatal Health Physiotherapy? Veodp: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2017/08/27/Prenatal-Pelvic-Health-Physiotherapy Mental/Emotional Hypnobirthing: https://us.hypnobirthing.com/ TBAB Doula Care Episode with Bebo Mia: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/role-of-doula-bebo-mia/ TBAB Homebirth Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/home-birth-101-kaitlin-murray/ TBAB Fear Free Childbirth Episode with Alexia Leachman: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/fear-free-birth-alexia-leachman/ Fear Free Childbirth Podcast and Book: https://www.fearfreechildbirth.com/ Birth Hour Podcast: https://thebirthhour.com/ Informed Pregnancy Podcast: https://www.informedpregnancy.com/ Evidence Based Birth Podcast: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/evidence-based-birth-podcast/ Yoga I Birth I Babies Podcast: https://prenatalyogacenter.com/podcast-list/ Birthful Podcast: https://www.birthful.com/category/podcast/ Doing It At Home Podcast: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ RockStarBirth Radio Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/rockstar-birth-radio/id1124640454 TBAB Evidence Based Birth Episode with Rebecca Dekker: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/evidence-based-birth-rebecca-dekker/ Evidence Based Birth: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/ Association of Ontario Midwives: https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/ SOGC – Society of Gynecologists & Obstetricians of Canada: https://www.sogc.org/ ACOG – American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists: https://www.acog.org/ Birth Preferences TBAB Birth Preferences Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/birth-plans-preferences-final/ Time Stamps 1:02 - Today we are sharing resources, and specific ways that Anita and Jessie prepared for their births. 2:12 - If you are not planning on having a home birth, don't turn this podcast off! Here's why… 4:14 - Starting with the physical side of birth prep...strength training! 8:44 - Release work - it's not just stretching! 16:48 - Specifically to the pelvic floor...perineal massage! 24:42 - Internal pelvic floor treatments during pregnancy. 25:29 - The mental and emotional side of preparing for birth… 49:33 - Getting practiced at talking about the hard and uncomfortable things. 51:09 - Some last thoughts on preparing for home AND hospital births. 54:47 - Our thoughts on having a doula. 58:59 - Was Anita's husband on board with a home birth from the beginning? 59:42 - Birth Preferences: do they matter? 1:10:34 - On the next episode of To Birth and Beyond…

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Episode 56: In Depth on Birth Prep

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2019 74:31

In today’s episode, Anita and Jessie go in-depth on how they prepared for birth: from strength training, to what they purchased, resources they hired, podcasts they listened to, and beyond! --- If you liked this episode of To Birth and Beyond, tell your friends! Find us on iTunes and Stitcher to rate/review/subscribe to the show. Want more? Visit www.ToBirthAndBeyond.com, join our Facebook group (To Birth and Beyond Podcast), and follow us on Instagram @tobirthandbeyondpodcast! Thanks for listening and joining the conversation! Resources and References Physical: TBAB Top 5 Exercise Tips for Pregnancy Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/top-five-pregnancy-exercise-tips/ TBAB Prepare your pelvic floor for birth Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/pelvic-floor-for-birth-2/ Spinning Babies Techniques: https://spinningbabies.com/learn-more/techniques/ Spinning babiesparent class video: https://spinningbabies.com/product/parent-class-digital-download/ Spinning babies daily essentials: https://spinningbabies.com/product/daily-essentials-digital-download/ TBAB Prenatal Yoga Episode with Deb Fleshenberg: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/prenatal-yoga-deb-flashenberg/ Perineal Massage video: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2017/07/22/Perineal-Massage---preparing-your-pelvic-floor-for-birth TBAB What is Pelvic Floor Physiotherapy? Episode http://tobirthandbeyond.com/pelvic-health-physio/ What is Prenatal Health Physiotherapy? Veodp: https://www.holistichealthphysio.com/single-post/2017/08/27/Prenatal-Pelvic-Health-Physiotherapy Mental/Emotional Hypnobirthing: https://us.hypnobirthing.com/ TBAB Doula Care Episode with Bebo Mia: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/role-of-doula-bebo-mia/ TBAB Homebirth Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/home-birth-101-kaitlin-murray/ TBAB Fear Free Childbirth Episode with Alexia Leachman: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/fear-free-birth-alexia-leachman/ Fear Free Childbirth Podcast and Book: https://www.fearfreechildbirth.com/ Birth Hour Podcast: https://thebirthhour.com/ Informed Pregnancy Podcast: https://www.informedpregnancy.com/ Evidence Based Birth Podcast: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/evidence-based-birth-podcast/ Yoga I Birth I Babies Podcast: https://prenatalyogacenter.com/podcast-list/ Birthful Podcast: https://www.birthful.com/category/podcast/ Doing It At Home Podcast: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ RockStarBirth Radio Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/rockstar-birth-radio/id1124640454 TBAB Evidence Based Birth Episode with Rebecca Dekker: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/evidence-based-birth-rebecca-dekker/ Evidence Based Birth: https://evidencebasedbirth.com/ Association of Ontario Midwives: https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/ SOGC – Society of Gynecologists & Obstetricians of Canada: https://www.sogc.org/ ACOG – American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists: https://www.acog.org/ Birth Preferences TBAB Birth Preferences Episode: http://tobirthandbeyond.com/birth-plans-preferences-final/ Time Stamps 1:02 - Today we are sharing resources, and specific ways that Anita and Jessie prepared for their births. 2:12 - If you are not planning on having a home birth, don’t turn this podcast off! Here’s why… 4:14 - Starting with the physical side of birth prep...strength training! 8:44 - Release work - it’s not just stretching! 16:48 - Specifically to the pelvic floor...perineal massage! 24:42 - Internal pelvic floor treatments during pregnancy. 25:29 - The mental and emotional side of preparing for birth… 49:33 - Getting practiced at talking about the hard and uncomfortable things. 51:09 - Some last thoughts on preparing for home AND hospital births. 54:47 - Our thoughts on having a doula. 58:59 - Was Anita’s husband on board with a home birth from the beginning? 59:42 - Birth Preferences: do they matter? 1:10:34 - On the next episode of To Birth and Beyond…

Episode 50: Plus Size Pregnancy with bebo mia

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Play Episode Listen Later Jan 22, 2019 39:23

Today, we are talking with Bianca and Natasha, co-founders of bebo mia which offers training, mentorship, and community for your pregnancy, birth, and parenting biz! Together, we discuss plus size pregnancy, and the implications that go along with it. This includes - but isn't limited to - considerations for plus size bodies, how plus size bodies in pregnancy are managed, advocating for plus size bodies, and - moving forward - how fitness and health professionals can better support those that are considered plus size during pregnancy and birth.

Episode 50: Plus Size Pregnancy with bebo mia

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Play Episode Listen Later Jan 22, 2019 39:24

Today, we are talking with Bianca and Natasha, co-founders of bebo mia which offers training, mentorship, and community for your pregnancy, birth, and parenting biz! Together, we discuss plus size pregnancy, and the implications that go along with it. This includes - but isn’t limited to - considerations for plus size bodies, how plus size bodies in pregnancy are managed, advocating for plus size bodies, and - moving forward - how fitness and health professionals can better support those that are considered plus size during pregnancy and birth.

Decisive Mindfulness

All About Doulaship Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 15, 2019 54:38

Today I have a chat with the co-founders of Bebo Mia (a seven figure doula+ training & support business), Natasha Marchand and Bianca Sprague. Both are doulas become doula trainers and we get into the nitty gritty of how their journeys began and transformed into the successful business they run today. We talk about goals, measuring progress in a way that works for you, and how to support other doulas versus tearing them down. I hope you enjoy the interview and follow the links below for additional information.Book Recommendations: Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, Shrewed: A Wry and Closely Observed Look at the Lives of Women and Girls by Elizabeth Renzetti, Year of Yes: How to Dance It Out, Stand In the Sun and Be Your Own Person by Shonda Rhimes.Bebo Mia 20% Discount Code: Doulaship

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Pregnancy Body Changes

Fear Free Childbirth Podcast with Alexia Leachman

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 25, 2018 48:28

Worrying about pregnancy body changes is something most pregnant women worry about. Whether it's the expected changes in the shape of your body as pregnancy progresses, to the least expected changes that might happen as a result of birth complications - and everything in between! Pregnancy body changes are a huge source of worry for women which is why I wanted to talk about this on the podcast. To help do that I’m going to be joined by Bianca and Natasha from Bebo Mia. They have a doula business and have been working with women for over 10 years so they’ve seen it all when it comes to women getting worried about pregnancy body changes. We cover quite a few angles when it comes to pregnancy body changes, from plus size pregnancies, to being pregnant when fit and of course vaginal tearing.. and lots more. Listen here Pregnancy Body Changes The adjustment you need to go through in how you perceive your body once you’re pregnant is quite significant. Many women have worries when it comes to pregnancy body changes which mean they struggle with this adjustment. This is particularly so for women who have strong feelings around their body - whether that's love because they've spent a lot of effort being fit or whether they don't like their body. Common worries and fears around pregnancy body changes include; "why isn’t my pregnancy going like a “normal” pregnancy?" ..... whatever *that* is! “I’m worried about gaining too much weight during my pregnancy" Plus size pregnancy We talk about BMI measurement and the obese categories. Yes, a BMI of 30 and above carries risks, but it’s simply an increased risk, not an absolute or guaranteed outcome. As with all risks, it's crucial to understand what the numbers are telling you. The important thing to bear in mind is that with plus size pregnancies, positive outcomes are all possible! Did you know that a common misguided belief is that overweight women are not strong enough to birth their babies? And another is that their vagina will be too fat. Yes, you read that right. A fat vagina! Since when can you get a fat vagina?? How can a hole get fat? #crazytalk We also talk about the importance of ditching the yo-yo dieting habit Fit women The Bebo Mia ladies are clear to state that it's important for women to give themselves at least 6 weeks to recover. They encourage women to connect to their postpartum body rather than focus on trying to re-establish their pre-baby body. Another common problem is that some women are too scared to gain weight during pregnancy, with some women working out too much because they’re worried about gaining more than 25 pounds. Changes down below No chat about pregnancy body changes would be complete without talking about vaginal tearing. I know! Vaginal tearing is a HUGE fear among pregnant women. And yet interestingly, when I speak to women about their birth stories, vaginal tearing rarely features as something they worry about during birth - with many not even noticing it happening when it does. This vagina talk also covers; the husband stitch the importance of pelvic work This is a great episode that is made brilliant by my fabulous guests, who have also offered a discount on all products on their site - see below. About bebo mia bebo mia is a training & mentorship organization for women in the maternal health field, including pregnancy/birth professionals, childbirth educators & parenting specialists. They offer comprehensive skills, business support & community care through an innovative online structure that spans a global market. A very different culture from both the patriarchal boardroom model & the female-centric multi-level marketing industry, bebo mia offers opportunities for women to work from home while making an income for themselves and their families. They develop inclusive, accessible trainings for women that provide the skills needed to grow & sust...

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Episode 24: Role of the Doula with Bebo Mia

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 24, 2018 58:32

Today, we are talking with Bianca and Natasha, co-founders of bebo mia which offers training, mentorship, and community for your pregnancy, birth, and parenting biz! Together, we discuss everything related to doulas: from social justice work around reproductive health, to what a doula brings with them for during a birth, and why you may want to have a fertility doula and even a postpartum doula!

doula bebo mia

Episode 24: Role of the Doula with Bebo Mia